(Military I) - Bagosora Et Al - Redacted Transcript of 24 October 2005

1 THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL FOR RWANDA
2
3 CASE NO. ICTR-98-41-T THE PROSECUTOR
4 CHAMBER I OF THE TRIBUNAL
5 v.
6 THÉONESTE BAGOSORA
7 GRATIEN KABILIGI
8 ALOYS NTABAKUZE
9 ANATOLE NSENGIYUMVA
10
11 MONDAY, 24 OCTOBER 2005
12 0950H
13 CONTINUED TRIAL
14
15 Before the Judges:
16 Erik Møse, Presiding
17 Sergey A. Egorov
18
19 For the Registry:
20 Ms. Marianne Ben Salimo
21 Mr. Edward E. Matemanga
22
23 For the Prosecution:
24 Ms. Barbara Mulvaney
25 Mr. Drew White
26 Ms. Christine Graham
27 Mr. Rashid Rashid
28
29 For the Accused Théoneste Bagosora:
30 Mr. Raphaël Constant
31 Ms. Allison Turner
32
33 For the Accused Gratien Kabiligi:
34 Mr. Paul Skolnik
35 Mr. Frédéric Hivon
36
37 For the Accused Aloys Ntabakuze:
38 Mr. Peter Erlinder
39 Mr. André Tremblay
40
41 For the Accused Anatole Nsengiyumva:
42 Mr. Kennedy Ogetto
43 Mr. Gershom Otachi Bw’omanwa
44
45 Court Reporters:
46 Ms. Judith Baverstock, Ms. Sherri Knox,
47 Ms. Priscilla Trillo, Ms. Jean Baigent
48
1 BAGOSORA ET AL MONDAY, 24 OCTOBER 2005
1 INDEX
2
3 WITNESS
4
5
6 For the Defence:

7 THÉONESTE BAGOSORA
8 Examination-in-chief by Mr. Constant..............................................................2
9
10
11 EXHIBITS
12 Exhibit No. D. B197........................................................................................12
13 Exhibit No. D. B198A and D. B198B...............................................................24
15 Exhibit No. D. B200A, D. B200B and D. B200C..............................................37
16 Exhibit No. D. B201........................................................................................42
17 Exhibit No. D. B202........................................................................................45
18 Exhibit No. D. B203........................................................................................45
19 Exhibit No. D. B204A, D. B204B and D. B204C..............................................50
20 Exhibit No. D. B205........................................................................................53
21 Exhibit No. D. B206........................................................................................53
22 Exhibit No. D. B207........................................................................................68
23 Exhibit No. D. B208........................................................................................68
25 Exhibit No. D. B210........................................................................................84
26
2 JUDITH BAVERSTOCK - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page i

1 PROCEEDINGS
2 MR. PRESIDENT:
3 Good morning. We are starting a bit later today because of the first
4 segment of the United Nations day. The Bench is sitting under 15 bis as
5 Judge Reddy is not feeling well today. We expect him to be with us very
6 soon.
7
8 Kabiligi Defence.
9 MR. SKOLNIK:
10 Good morning, Mr. President; good morning, Judge Egorov; good morning,
11 Counsel colleagues.
12
13 I would just like to advise the Bench that my client General Kabiligi is
14 absent today.
15
16 And, Mr. President, I would like you to convey, on behalf of all the Defence
17 members here, to Judge Reddy, our hopes for a speedy recovery, and we
18 hope to see him back here as soon as possible.
19 MR. PRESIDENT:
20 Thank you very much. That is noted.
21
22 Today is the testimony of Colonel Bagosora.

23
24 If the Accused could kindly take his seat just in front here, please.
25
26 Good morning, Colonel.

27 THE WITNESS:
28 Good morning, Mr. President.
29 MR. PRESIDENT:
30 You have to tell the truth, and the registry will now take your solemn
31 declaration.
32 (Declaration made by Théoneste Bagosora in French)
33 MR. PRESIDENT:
34 Thank you.
35
36 Is there a document that we have in front of us?
4 JUDITH BAVERSTOCK - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 1

1 MR. CONSTANT:
2 No, Mr. President, because I think that the Bench has all information
3 pertaining to the identity and profession of my client through the
4 indictment. So I did not deem it necessary to have the personal
5 identification sheet.
6
7 MR. PRESIDENT:
8 All right. And then we will, if necessary, ask additional questions during
9 examination-in-chief and possibly cross-examination. So that's all right.
10
11 You will now be examined in chief by Defence counsel.

12
13 Maître Constant, you have the floor.

14 MR. CONSTANT:
15 Much obliged, Mr. President. I join my colleague Skolnik to wish a speedy
16 recovery to Mr. Justice Reddy.
17 THÉONESTE BAGOSORA,
18 first having been duly sworn,
19 testified as follows:
20 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF
21 BY MR. CONSTANT:
22 Q. Good morning, Colonel.
23 A. Morning, Counsel.
24 Q. Can you tell this Court for how long you have been detained in the United
25 Nations detention facility?
26 A. The warrant was issued in 1996, but I am at UNDF since January 1993 --
27 THE ENGLISH INTERPRETER:
28 And he corrects, "January 1997."
29
30 And, Mr. President, if counsel and witness will observe the pause.
31 MR. PRESIDENT:
32 Now, it's important to establish a good working method from the outset.
33 The interpreters are already complaining that the break between question
34 and answer is not being observed. That often happens when you both
35 speak the same language, so please observe it.
36

1 Yes.
2 MR. CONSTANT:
3 Yes, Mr. President, and wherever necessary kindly call me to order.
4 BY MR. CONSTANT:
5 Q. Please, remind this Court, before you arrived here at UNDF, when were
6 you arrested?
7 A. I was arrested in Cameroon in March 1996.
8 Q. Can you tell this Court why you decided to testify in your trial?
9 A. Let me start by pointing out that I was not obliged to testify. I made up
10 my mind because many things have been said which are not true
11 concerning me, and which things have been spread by ill-intentioned
12 people who want to discredit me. So I decided to avail myself of this
13 opportunity to challenge all those false accusations. That is why I decided
14 to take the stand before this Court.
15 Talking about those untruths: For instance, people have dubbed me the
16 brain behind the massacres following the attack against the president's
17 plane on the 6th of April 1994. It is well known now by all Rwandan
18 experts, including Prosecution expert witnesses, that that attack triggered
19 the tragedy in Rwanda. Also, it is common knowledge today that it is
20 General Paul Kagame, current president in Rwanda, who is responsible for
21 that attack. Accordingly, it must be noted that ICTR has so far done
22 nothing concrete to arrest and try that established criminal.
23
24 Another regrettable thing we need to observe is that the ICTR stands out
25 as a victor's court. As a matter of fact, it is spending the time trying
26 Hutus who were the vanquished, at the same time courting the Tutsi
27 criminals who won the war which they themselves planned, carried out,
28 and won, at the price of scores of losses, both human lives and material
29 damage.
30
31 Now, I am here to explain matters with the hope that by the time my trial
32 comes to an end, the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda will
33 change its policy so that I will be able to enjoy worthy justice. Already I
34 am challenging the theory that I am the mastermind behind the genocide,
35 which I do not believe at all.
36

1 Before this honourable Court, I am asserting that I assumed my

2 responsibilities as directeur du cabinet in the ministry of defence, the
3 minister of whom which was on mission abroad. And I am asserting
4 hereby that I acted within the confines of the law and of military
5 regulations. I equally have said hereby that I assumed my duty within the
6 limit of my responsibilities and that in the face of my responsibilities, I was
7 not a coward.
8
9 Now I take the stand to speak the truth, the whole truth and the nothing
10 but the truth so that posterity will know so that justice will be rendered
11 knowingly, at least as far as I am concerned. That is all what I have to say
12 in this connection.
13 Q. Colonel, before we get to the details --
14 A. I am sorry, Counsel, I would like to request, if it is possible, that I be given
15 some pieces of paper or a notebook to take down notes throughout my
16 testimony.
17 MR. PRESIDENT:
18 All right.
19 THE WITNESS:
20 Thank you.
21 BY MR. CONSTANT:
22 Q. Colonel, before we get down to the crux of the issue which you just
23 broached, that is, the issues you are accused against, and also in
24 connection with the indictment, do you think it is necessary for us to
25 revisit your life before the 6th of April 1994, and why we should do so?
26 A. Yes, absolutely so, because I think that this Court should know full well the
27 person it is trying. It is important to know how I was brought up and how
28 we came about the situation -- or the label, when I was referred to as
29 mastermind of the genocide, whether it was a mere accident or it was
30 something that had been in the pipelines for a number of years. So in
31 order to have a full view, I need to introduce myself properly.
32 Q. Very well. In that connection, can you tell this Court where and when you
33 were born?
34 A. I was born on the 16th of August 1941 at Giciye commune.
35 Q. Is that commune, Giciye, part of what is usually referred to as the
36 Bushiru?

1 A. Bushiru is the former traditional region, because Bushiru comprised two

2 communes, Giciye and Karago communes. Let us say that Giciye is the
3 regional entity.
4 MR. PRESIDENT:
5 Do we have Giciye there on the spelling list, Maître Constant? If not, let us
6 spell it.
7 BY MR. CONSTANT:
8 Q. Colonel, kindly spell it because it is not on our spelling list.
9 A. It is spelt G-I-C-I-Y-E.
10 Q. Colonel, can you tell us who are your father and mother?
11 A. My father was known as Bagirubwiko, Mathias, also known as Bagirimana.
12 MR. CONSTANT:
13 That name is number 10 on the spelling list; and Bagirimana is number 9.
14 BY MR. CONSTANT:
15 Q. Why did your father have an alias?
16 A. Well, he was a teacher. He had been a teacher since the 1930s. He
17 worked as a teacher from 1937 to 1987. That's a period of 50 years.
18 Because of his success in his duty, he was referred to by the general
19 public as Mwalimu Bagirimana.
20 Q. And can you tell this Court what is the meaning of Mwalimu Bagirimana?
21 A. Mwalimu, that is, as far as he is concerned, was known as a teacher
22 emeritus, and Bagirimana means the lucky one.
23 Q. Can you tell this Court where your father worked as a teacher?
24 A. He started primary -- he started the primary school in Mulinga in Giciye
25 commune. He taught there up until 1968, then he moved to another
26 commune; that is, Karago commune in 1968. He kept on teaching there
27 at the Bukihanyna school up until 1987.
28 MR. CONSTANT:
29 Bukihanyna is B-U-K-I-H-A-N-Y-N-A.
30 BY MR. CONSTANT:
31 Q. Apart from your father's profession as a teacher, did he have any social
32 and political activities; and, if so, which?
33 A. In 1953, at the time when Belgium was preparing Rwanda for internal
34 self-government, it established elections at the grassroots, at chiefdom
35 level, so as to appoint or to elect conseillers, and my father was elected
36 conseiller twice, from 1953 to 1959.

1 Q. Do you mean up until the time when the 1959 revolution took place?
2 A. Yes, the 1959 revolution occurred at the time when he was a conseiller in
3 a chiefdom.
4 Q. And can you tell us which chiefdom your father served as a conseiller?
5 A. It was the Bushiru chiefdom.
6 Q. And can you tell us who was the head of Bushiru chiefdom?
7 A. Up until 1957, it was Chief Nyngezi. When he died he was replaced by his
8 nephew, Mr. Cyngabwoba.
9 Q. Can you spell those names?
10 A. Nyngezi, N-Y-N-G-E-Z-I. Cyngabwoba is spelt C-Y-N-G-A-B-W-O-B-A.
11 Q. What was the ethnicity of the two persons whose names you just gave?
12 A. They were Tutsis. And perhaps let me point out that in order to be a
13 conseiller in a chiefdom, you had to be elected at the grassroots, the
14 sub-chiefdom, and the sub-chief was known as Rupiya.
15 MR. CONSTANT:
16 Rupiya is number 134 on the list.
17 BY MR. CONSTANT:
18 Q. And can you tell us what Mr. Rupiya's first name was?
19 A. Straton.
20 Q. And what was his ethnicity?
21 A. He was a Tutsi.
23 Mr. President, for the record, the interpreters do not have the spelling list.
24 MR. PRESIDENT:
25 Make sure that they get it immediately. That is standard practice: The
26 spelling list to the interpreters. Have you distributed sufficient number of
27 copies? The court reporters have also not received the spelling list, so
28 please do that immediately.
29
30 All right, we will continue.

31
32 Now, who chose these conseiller? Were they chosen or appointed by the
33 chief or the sub-chief of the chiefdom, or how did it happen?
34 THE WITNESS:
35 (Microphone not activated)

1 The witness's microphone is off.

2 THE WITNESS:
3 In 1953, it was the first time that the sous-préfets in authority were
4 organising grassroots election at sub-chiefdom level, and there were
5 direct elections for the conseillers of the sub-chiefdom. But at the level of
6 conseillers for the chiefdoms, conseillers of the sub-chiefdoms chose from
7 their number someone to be conseiller of the chiefdom.
8 MR. PRESIDENT:
9 But the system was one of election, and then they chose one from
10 amongst those elected?
11 THE WITNESS:
12 Yes, in order to be chiefdom conseiller, you must have already been
13 elected at sub-chiefdom level as conseiller. Once the sub-chiefdom
14 conseillers had been elected, they would elect now someone to represent
15 them at chiefdom level.
16 BY MR. CONSTANT:
17 Q. A point of clarification, Colonel. It is my understanding that the
18 sub-chiefdom conseillers were elected, then they elected the chiefdom
19 conseiller. Now, my question is this: The sub-chief administering the
20 sub-chiefdom, and the chief administering the chiefdom, were they
21 elected?
22 A. No, they were appointed by the colonial administration.
23 Q. You told us that the two chiefs whose names you mentioned, as well as
24 the sub-chiefs, were Tutsis?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Was this on account of the fact that most of the inhabitants of the sub-
27 chief of your father -- of the sub-chiefdom or the chiefdom were mainly
28 Tutsis?
29 A. No, not at all. Actually, there were almost no Tutsis in my sub-chiefdom,
30 and even the Tutsis who came there to administer had come from other
31 regions, I think from the south or the centre, because in my region there
32 was no Tutsi before his arrival, there were only the Bagogwe who lived in
33 the Gishwati forest.
34 Q. Given that there were practically no Tutsis in the sub-chiefdoms or the
35 chiefdom, is there any explanation why the sub-chief and chief were
36 Tutsis?

1 A. Well, this is historical. In the 1930s, the Belgian colonial administration

2 decided to carry out indirect rule. This means that they preferred to work
3 with the Tutsis they set up with the authorities. They strengthened them,
4 and they distituted (sic) the chiefs in the Hutu areas. That is why most of
5 those areas were commanded by chieftains in the '30s, and the Belgian
6 colonial administration decided to work only with Tutsis and distituted all
7 Hutu chiefs and sub-chiefs.
8 Q. What was your father's ethnicity?
9 A. He was a Hutu.
10 Q. Kindly tell this Court the meaning of the term "clan" in Rwandan society?
11 A. There were several clans in Rwanda. I may not be able to explain this:
12 You have the Abasindi, the Abagesera, the Abasinga clans. Let us say it
13 was a large -- huge family, and it is difficult to know when it started
14 existing. I cannot say further. It's a huge family, and we cannot know
15 exactly when the clans started. It is a subdivision of huge families in
16 Rwandan society.
17 Q. And can you tell us what was your father's clan?
18 A. My father was of the Abasindi clan.
19 Q. A-B-A-S-I-N-D-I. Is my spelling correct?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 MR. PRESIDENT:
22 The problem is that there were also mentioned, I think, three other clans.
23 Can you help us with that, once we have them on record, otherwise there
24 will be confusion. I do not know how important this is, but just for clarity.
25 THE WITNESS:
26 I talked of Abega, A-B-E-G-A. I talked of Abasinga, A-B-A-S-I-N-G-A.
27 BY MR. CONSTANT:
28 Q. Kindly tell us, sir, when your father died.
29 A. He died on the 5th of May 1994.
30 Q. So he died during the tragic events that Rwanda experienced from April
31 1994?
32 A. Yes, indeed.
33 Q. Did he die of natural causes or otherwise?
34 A. I think he was fine. It must have been heart attack following the events
35 that took him unawares. So he went into a coma and died.
36 Q. Did you attend his burial?

1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And can you tell us the date and place of his burial?
3 A. When he died on the 5th, I went to Karago commune where he lived. I
4 went there by helicopter on the 5th. The funeral took place on the 6th. I
5 stayed there up to the 10th for the very limited mourning period, on the
6 account of the circumstances, then I went back to Kigali.
7 Q. Can you tell us who your mother was?
8 A. My mother was known as Ntibayazi, Anastasie.
9 Q. That is number 110 on the spelling list.
10 Q. Tell us whether she had an occupation.
11 A. Well, she was a housewife.
12 Q. Can you tell us whether she was from the same clan as your father?
13 A. No, she was of the Abagesera b'Abasaso clan.
14 Q. Is spelt A-B-A-G-E-S-E-R-A. Then we have B- and A-B-A-S-A-S-O.
15
16 Did she equally hail from Bushiru?

17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I am going to ask Mr. Matemanga to show you a document.
19 MR. CONSTANT:
20 And I am hereby advising the parties that it is document number 1 in the
21 folder which was circulated this morning.
22 MR. CONSTANT:
23 Mr. President, I wonder whether in order to save time, it is possible to give
24 the folder to the witness so that as we move along, he will be able to refer
25 to the documents, or do you want us to hand the documents to him
26 piecemeal?
27 MR. PRESIDENT:
28 It would save time.
29 MR. WHITE:
30 The Prosecution notes that if the witness has a collection of documents in
31 his possession, that he will be able to review those documents as he is
32 going through his testimony, and it would amount to a form of leading. If
33 my learned friend wishes to lead in that way, the Prosecution will
34 comment upon it in the closing brief and make no further comments about
35 it now.
36 MR. PRESIDENT:

1 So the question now is whether you maintain your working method or

2 whether you want to refrain from using that working method, Mr.
3 Constant, having heard the remark.
4 MR. CONSTANT:
5 Mr. President, actually, I was trying to save time, but since, for the
6 Prosecutor, time is of no essence, we will then continue with the simplest
7 method.
8 BY MR. CONSTANT:
9 Q. Do you have the document, Colonel?
10 A. Yes, sir
11 Q. Can you tell us what it is all about?
12 A. That document is my family tree. That is my kinship, both paternally and
13 maternally.
14 Q. Above your father and mother's names where there is a series of names,
15 which I will not like to refer to, but could you tell us whether they are the
16 fathers -- forefathers?
17 A. If you start from my name going upwards, you will realise that I am the
18 son of Mathias Bagirubwiko, who is the son of Sebiguri, and so on and so
19 forth. Now, if you take from my mother's name, Anastasie Ntibayazi, it
20 means she is the daughter of Gahanda, who was a child of Kibiribiri, and
21 so on and so forth.
22 Q. From your father's side, we have a family tree of 12, and from your
23 mother's side, we have a family tree comprising eight names. How are
24 you able to explain this?
25 A. As a matter of fact, children are taught the paternal lineage, whereas for
26 the maternal lineage, it is optional. That is why I have less from my
27 mother's side because I was not able to go further in time. But what my
28 mother told me about their family, it is true we have the Abagesera clan,
29 but the huge family that it hailed from was the b’Abasaso. In other words,
30 it is a subdivision of the Abagesera clan. So, in the b’Abasaso clan, you
31 have many subdivisions. That is how she taught me that, from the
32 subfamily that concerned her. That is why I started -- or ended with
33 b’Abasaso, the family it belonged to. But from my father's side, we went
34 further back because her family or the subfamily --
35 MR. PRESIDENT:
36 This is not so difficult to understand.

2 But, Mr. Constant, you are leading up to something, probably a previous

3 testimony. That's why we need to know this. Why don't you take the lead
4 again?
5 MR. CONSTANT:
6 Mr. President, the one who has the lead is my client, not me.
7 BY MR. CONSTANT:
8 Q. Colonel, in Rwandan society, is this kinship very important in human
9 relationships?
10 A. Yes, it is of key importance because in Rwandan society each person has
11 his name. You do not take your father's name as you have in western
12 societies. Your identification, however, is your family tree. If you go
13 somewhere you were not known, you must give your father's name, as
14 well as your grandfather's name, at least. So you have your name, your
15 father's name, as well as your grandfather's name. That is how it would
16 be able -- people would be able to identify you to say that you are this
17 person, not someone else. It was for identification purposes.
18
19 Also, in traditional rites, we paid tribute to the ancestors, and in order to

20 pay tribute to them, you need to know them. In the Catholic church, we
21 have the litany of saints. It's the same thing. So it was necessary to know
22 the most important lineage for those rites.
23 Q. Now, let us focus on an issue which is important for the file in your case.
24 There was a witness who came here with pseudonym XBM, and we are
25 going to refer to that pseudonym for his protection. And, for the record,
26 he testified on the 14th and 15th of July 2005 (sic), and he claimed to be
27 your cousin in order to buttress the credibility of what he was saying. Do
28 you understand what I am talking about?
29 A. Yes, sir.
30 Q. Now, tell us that person, whose name we cannot divulge in public, was he
31 your cousin or not?
32 A. Well, I remember what he said before this Court. He was not able to know
33 my father, or my mother for that matter. He never said that he had been
34 to my place.
35 MR. PRESIDENT:
36 I suppose that in the French version, you referred to the 14th and 15th of

1 July to 2'04, not 2'05.

2 THE WITNESS:
3 Mr. President, in any case, it is 2003, but I do not remember what I said.
4 But it was 2003.
5 MR. PRESIDENT:
6 Okay.
7
8 MR. CONSTANT:
9 14 and 15 July 2003.
10 MR. PRESIDENT:
11 That makes more sense, thank you.
12 THE WITNESS:
13 If I present my family tree here, it's to enable the Court to compare my
14 family tree with that of that gentleman, and then we will be able to know
15 at what level we have kinship relations.
16 BY MR. CONSTANT:
17 Q. Colonel, what I would like to ask you is whether any Rwandan at all, not
18 only the elites, but can any Rwandan be able to know his ascendants or
19 ancestors?
20 A. With what we refer to as western civilisation, people abandoned the
21 traditional rites, and people lost the elements that made it possible to
22 trace back the entire family tree. For example, as far as I am concerned,
23 my father was a Catholic, but my grandfather was a pagan; he carried out
24 his rites and I leave it there. Similarly, my grandfather Gahanda, from the
25 maternal side, he had not adopted any western religion. He was called a
26 pagan, but he had his own religion. We had traditional religions. I
27 mention Gombe -- Ryagombe. They were carrying out rites. I knew about
28 that at that time, but, for example, my children today are not aware of
29 that. They do not know about that, except I gave them a document to
30 say, "Look, this is your family tree. I had the opportunity to learn about
31 that when I was still a young person in my grandparents’ home."
32 Q. You gave the name of a rite, can you spell it?
33 A. R-Y-A-G-O-M-B-E.
34 Q. Now, to conclude on XBM, do you think it is credible for him to have
35 claimed that he is your cousin without knowing your parents?
36 A. No. That was simply a fabrication, because if I give this information, the

1 Tribunal, with the OTP and so on, can carry out investigations. I can tell
2 you about the region. You have old people, older than me, who can tell
3 you that. If you ask them that, they are going to tell you the true story.
4 This particular person did not give you his family tree, so he was unable to
5 identify himself. And in that case, I cannot say whether we have a kinship
6 relationship or not.
7 Q. Given that we are talking about family relationships, we are going to talk
8 about something that we will revisit later.
9
10 Do you have any kinship relationship with the family of President

11 Habyarimana or the family of his wife, Agathe Kanziga?
12 A. No, I am from the Abasindi clan. Juvénal Habyarimana is from the
13 Abungura clan.
14 Q. And that is number 2 on the list A-B-G-U-N-G-U-R-A (sic), and his wife
15 Agathe Kanziga was from -- is from the Abagesera b'Abahenda clan?
16 A-B-A-G-E-S-E-R-A, B- apostrophe, A-B-A-H-E-N-D-A. That is number 1 on
17 the list.
18 You can proceed, Colonel.
19 A. I have given my family tree, and for people to be cousins, you have to
20 have at least a common grandfather. If he is from the Abungura clan and I
21 am from the Abasindi clan, this is not possible. Furthermore, if Madam
22 Agathe Habyarimana is from the Abagesera clan, from the bigger family
23 Abahenda, and I am from the same clan but from the b’Abasaso family, if
24 they have a relationship, it should be after the ninth generation not before
25 that. That is what this means. So I am not able to tell you, because it
26 would be difficult to say that I have a relationship with someone after the
27 ninth generation.
28 MR. PRESIDENT:
29 Leaving aside this, did you ever meet XBM either in meetings of families
30 or clans?
31 THE WITNESS:
32 He admitted himself that he never came to my place. I saw him for the
33 first time here in this courtroom.
34 MR. PRESIDENT:
35 So you had never seen him before he appeared in this courtroom?
36 THE WITNESS:

1 Never, never.
2 BY MR. CONSTANT:
3 Q. To conclude on the two presidential families, you are saying that there are
4 no direct kinship links with you?
5 A. With Madam Habyarimana, what is possible is that my mother and her are
6 from the Abagesera clan. The possibility that there is a family relationship
7 would be after the ninth generation, and that is not possible to verify.
8 Q. Mention has been made of your links with the presidential family based on
9 family or regional solidarity. Do you have an observation to make on that?
10 A. President Juvénal Habyarimana is from Bushiru. His wife Agathe Kanziga
11 is from Bushiru. I am from the same region. Our parents knew each
12 other. I have known him for a long time, when I was still a young man, and
13 I can even say that the Habyarimana family were friends of my family.
14 Q. We are going to revisit your links with Habyarimana family.
15 MR. CONSTANT:
16 Mr. President, for practical reasons, are we going to tender documents one
17 by one, or we are going to do it all at one time at the end? It's just a way
18 of saving time.
19 MR. PRESIDENT:
20 In view of the length of this testimony, I think it's better to do it step by
21 step. So let's start with this one.
22
23 What is the first exhibit number now, Mr. Matemanga?

24 MR. MATEMANGA:
25 D. B197.
26 MR. PRESIDENT:
27 Thank you.
28 (Exhibit No. D. B197 admitted)
29 MR. CONSTANT:
30 I think my learned colleague Drew White wanted to say something.
31 MR. PRESIDENT:
32 I think the question is moot following the way I approached it.
33 BY MR. CONSTANT:
34 Q. Colonel Bagosora, can you tell this Court how many brothers and sisters
35 you had?
36 A. I had one brother and four sisters.

1 MR. PRESIDENT:
2 Now, Mr. Constant, this implies that you have finished the fore-section, A,
3 parents, in your document?
4 MR. CONSTANT:
5 Mr. President, are you referring to the plan that I disclosed to the Court?
6 MR. PRESIDENT:
7 Yes.
8 MR. CONSTANT:
9 Yes, I have finished with the parents. We are going to come back to that
10 very briefly when we are going to talk about 1959, but I have concluded
11 the direct introduction of the parents.
12 MR. PRESIDENT:
13 Because that was just my next question, 1959, but you are coming back
14 to that. All right.
15
16 Then I only have one question. You mentioned that your father, a Hutu,
17 was a conseiller in this area where there were Tutsi chiefs and sub-chiefs.
18 THE WITNESS:
19 That's correct.
20 MR. PRESIDENT:
21 What was the situation more generally during this Belgian colonial rule,
22 where the Belgians, as you explained, may have picked Tutsi from the top,
23 but what happened the other way, from underneath so to speak? Was it a
24 general feature that the conseiller, or the person selected, were Hutu?
25 THE WITNESS:
26 What I am saying is that in Bushiru -- and I am talking about Bushiru,
27 which I know, I do not know how the situation was elsewhere -- in our own
28 sub-chiefdom, the sub-chief, Straton Rupiya, came with three members of
29 his family to accompany him. Before his arrival, there were no Tutsis.
30 MR. PRESIDENT:
31 So your answer is you do not know how it was in other areas.
32
33 THE WITNESS:
34 I did not know what happened in other areas of Rwanda.
35 JUDGE EGOROV:
36 I am sorry, could you please indicate the occupation of your grandfathers?

1 THE WITNESS:
2 Activities?
3 MR. PRESIDENT:
4 (French spoken)
5 THE WITNESS:
6 They were peasants and rearers.
7 BY MR. CONSTANT:
8 Q. One small clarification: I forgot to ask you the question as to when your
9 mother died.
10 A. She died in February 1983, 22nd February.
11 Q. As I have said, we will come back to your father in the Rwandan society
12 when we talk about the 1959 revolution.
13
14 Now, you said that you had one brother and four sisters, and you said that
15 in the past?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you tell us why you said that in the past tense?
18 A. The brother that I had was murdered in -- on 15th February 1999 --
19 Yaoundé. I have a sister who was murdered in Brussels the following year,
20 16 December 2000. The third was -- was murdered by the RPF in Gisenyi
21 in 1995. So I have two sisters remaining, one who is in prison in Kigali,
22 and another who is in exile in Europe.
23 Q. I will go -- I will ask you a few more questions regarding your brother and
24 sisters who died or are in prison. Are you the eldest, Colonel?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Can you tell us who comes after you?
27 A. Astérie Ntiliyaga, that is my sister.
28 MR. CONSTANT:
29 Number 112 on the list.
30 BY MR. CONSTANT:
31 Q. Is it the one who is in exile or who was murdered?
32 A. She is the one who is in prison in Kigali -- that is, Ntiliyaga -- ever since
33 1996.
34 Q. As far as you know, has she been tried?
35 A. No. So far she has not been tried. She has been in prison ever since
36 1996, and she is still waiting to be tried. She has no case file yet, and she

1 is there with her two sons. So the trial is still being awaited.
2
3 MR. PRESIDENT:
4 We need, unfortunately, the spelling of that name in connection with the
5 prison in Kigali. Can you help us very briefly.
6 THE WITNESS:
7 Ntiliyaga, N-T-I-L- -- Y-L-I-Y-A-G-A (sic), Astérie.
8 MR. PRESIDENT:
9 Not the name, because the name we have as 112. But my impression was
10 that you also mentioned a location in connection with Kigali.
11 THE WITNESS:
12 I talked about the Kigali prison.
13 MR. PRESIDENT:
14 But you didn't give any name. That's the lack of clarity in the transcript
15 which I wanted to get rid of.
16 THE WITNESS:
17 I said that he was -- that she is in prison with her two sons. She has two
18 sons in prison with her.
19 BY MR. CONSTANT:
20 Q. Please tell us what this sister of yours was doing prior to 1994?
21 A. She was a housewife, but she was in charge of a cellule, a responsable of
22 a cellule, as part of the MRND setup.
23 Q. Can you tell us whether she was married or not?
24 A. Yes, she was married.
25 Q. Do you know the name of her husband?
26 A. His name is Telesphore. I am forgetting his name, his surname.
27 Q. In any case, the first name is Telesphore.
28 A. Yes, Telesphore.
29 Q. Now, if you remember, you can tell us.
30
31 Now, can you tell us whether this gentleman is now your brother-in-law?
32 A. He was killed by the RPF in April 1994.
33 Q. How did you come to know this information?
34 A. I was still in Kigali. He was killed in Kabuga, 20 kilometres away from
35 Kigali, and his wife fled to my house. She told me that her husband had
36 been killed, so I believed her.

1 Q. Kabuga is spelt K-A-B-U-G-A.

2
3 Do you know what your sister is accused of?

4 A. Nsekambabaye, Telesphore; that is the name of my brother-in-law.
5 Q. That is number 101 on the list.
6
7 I am asking you what your sister is accused of, do you know? That is,
8 Astérie Ntiliyaga, who has been in prison for close to 10 years in Kigali.
9 A. She has not told me herself, but from information that I have received
10 from third parties, she is being accused of receiving weapons from me and
11 distributing to the population.
12 Q. Do you know whether she has a case file and a lawyer?
13 A. No. She does not have a lawyer.
14 Q. Do you know whether there is a criminal file in place, apart from the fact
15 that she is in prison?
16 A. But the situation in Rwanda is known. With more than 100,000 people in
17 prison, with all the goodwill necessary, I do not know how she can have a
18 case file set up. She is one of those people who do not have any case
19 files, but who are in prison without any hope, except there is an amnesty.
20 I do not know how, even with goodwill, they can try 100,000 people in due
21 course. I am not simply talking about my sister, I am talking about
22 everybody.
23 Q. Now, who comes after Astérie in your family?
24 A. Pasteur Musabe.
25 Q. You told us that he was murdered.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Can you elaborate? Under what circumstance, as far as you know?
28 A. His wife and children had already left and sought refuge in Europe. He
29 stayed back in Yaoundé because my family and my children had not yet
30 been able to find refuge in a country, in another country, whereas I was in
31 prison. So he thought it was necessary to stay back and settle all those
32 matters. When everyone had left and he had just packed up to go to
33 Europe, he was murdered. This was four days before he had already
34 bought his ticket and everything, and he was murdered four days before
35 his departure.
36 Q. I am going to show you a certain number of documents.

1 MR. CONSTANT:
2 And to the Court, these are the documents under number 2.
3
4 With the leave of the President, Mr. Matemanga, can you please show
5 those documents to Colonel Bagosora?
6 BY MR. CONSTANT:
7 Q. Are you familiar with these documents, Colonel Bagosora?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you briefly present each of the documents to us?
10 A. There is a document entitled "Communiqué number 48/99." It is a
11 communiqué that was prepared by the centre for the fight against
12 impunity and injustice in Rwanda, and this centre is based in Brussels.
13 And, briefly, it talks about the murder of my junior brother, Pasteur
14 Musabe.
15 Q. And, briefly, what is the second document all about?
16 A. The second document is entitled, murder of the Pasteur Musabe in
17 Yaoundé. It is an Ivorian newspaper which reproduced the Brussels
18 communiqué in its own newspaper.
19 Q. So content is the same?
20 A. In fact, the newspaper is Le Jour.
21 Q. Can you tell this Court who are the managers of the centre against
22 impunity and injustice in Rwanda?
23 A. It is Mr. Matata. He usually discusses matters in the press and radios. He
24 is well known.
25 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Matata has already appeared before the ICTR?
26 A. No, I do not recall that.
27 (Pages 1 to 16 by Judith Baverstock)
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36

10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19

1 1100H
2 BY MR. CONSTANT:
3 Q. Do you know about the activities of that centre?
4 A. Well, since I'm not a member of this centre, which was set up while I was
5 already in prison, except that they publish reports of investigations on
6 events in Rwanda and they denounce those activities there, they
7 investigate what is happening in Rwanda. And even today, they continue
8 carrying out investigations, which they publish, to denounce all the
9 arbitrary activities taking place.
10 Q. Now, to your knowledge, is this centre negationist, to use a specific term?
11 Does it deny the existence of genocide in Rwanda?
12 A. But I myself, I don't believe in genocide.
13 Q. That is not what I'm asking you, Colonel. I'm asking about the position of
14 that centre.
15 A. It is not just my feelings. We have been here so far, but there has been no
16 proof of the planning of genocide. Most reasonable people admit that
17 massacres took place, excessive massacres, and an explanation has to be
18 found for that. But I believe that this centre against impunity, reasons
19 along the same lines as what I have been able to see.
20 MR. PRESIDENT:
21 Now, it follows from this documentation that your brother was a director of
22 BACAR, the Rwandan bank; is that correct?
23 THE WITNESS:
24 Yes, he was general manager of a bank known as BACAR, Banque
25 Africaine et Continentale au Rwanda.
26 MR. PRESIDENT:
27 During which period did he hold that position; can you help us with that?
28 THE WITNESS:
29 From the '80s right up to 1994.
30 MR. PRESIDENT:
31 And, then, Maître Constant, you referred to a technical term in connection
32 with this centre against impunity, and that technical term was
33 incomprehensible, at least in English. Can you help us?
35 He used the term négationniste, in French, which the closest we can get to
36 is negationist.
44 SHERRI KNOX - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 17

1 MR. CONSTANT:
2 I have no idea how it could be translated in English. Apparently the
3 English speakers around me say it is the same word.
4 MR. PRESIDENT:
5 Yes. As long as we get this -- get it clearly, it's the same word, and now
6 it's fine. Thank you.
7 MR. CONSTANT:
8 Much obliged, Mr. President.
9 BY MR. CONSTANT:
10 Q. Colonel, please refer to the first document, and you can look at the
11 paragraph. The reasons for his murder are various; the motives for his
12 murder are various.
13 A. Which paragraph?
14 Q. You have a title on the first page, that is, the second title, "There are many
15 motives for his murder." Have you seen that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, please read small A.
18 A. "Mr. Musabe had started putting together documents and testimonies on
19 the Rwandan tragedy and had just completed the manuscript of a book on
20 the Rwandan tragedy. These -- these murderers would have wanted to
21 prevent the publication of that book.”
22 Q. To your knowledge, are the facts contained in that paragraph correct?
23 A. They are correct. But what I am not sure about -- because they also used
24 the conditional by saying that they would have wanted to prevent the
25 publication of that book, and that is speculation. But I have a copy of the
26 book today here. It is very critical with regard to his analysis of the
27 situation surrounding the 1994 events.
28 Q. Would you know whether at the time of his murder documents were
29 stolen?
30 A. Since he was my lone brother in Yaoundé and I was in prison, all my
31 documents and all the documents he had put together, including the draft
32 of his book, were taken away by the murderers.
33 Q. Would you know whether there were any documents connected to the
34 preparation of your defence?
35 A. Absolutely, yes.
36 Q. From 1996, when you were arrested, to 1999, when he was murdered, did

1 you have any direct or indirect contact with your brother?

2 A. We had phone contacts.
3 Q. Would you have an idea of the documents he may have put together and
4 which, if that were the case, disappeared?
5 A. You see, he was actually my investigator in my case. He had contacted
6 another investigator, but he was the one doing the work, so all documents
7 which had been put together up until the time he met his death
8 disappeared, so we had to start from scratch.
9 Q. And did you know whether or not the documents he had put together
10 were rediscovered afterwards?
11 A. Only the book I talked about. He had sent a copy thereof to his friend in
12 Belgium. That is how I was able to get a copy.
13 Q. Very well. Still in that same paragraph, let us move to subparagraph B, if
14 you can read aloud for the benefit of the Court.
15 A. "Mr. Musabe was Colonel Théoneste Bagosora's younger brother. Colonel
16 Bagosora was involved in the Rwandan genocide. Since they could not hit
17 his elder brother, who is detained by the international Tribunal in Arusha,
18 the masterminds behind the assassination may have wanted to take it out
19 against another member of that family, as is usually the case in Rwanda."
20 Q. Well, do we agree in this document there is mention of the term
21 "genocide" in Rwanda?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So we can, therefore, think that that centre does not question the idea of
24 a genocide?
25 A. That is true.
26 Q. Now, in your opinion, is your brother's murder connected to what you just
27 read, that is, the fact that you had family ties?
28 A. Yes, but that is not the only hypothesis.
29 Q. Kindly go to the bottom of that page and read the heading of the next
30 paragraph.
31 A. The one about the commandos?
32 Q. Yes.
33 A. "The RPF death commandos have already wasted many people abroad.
34 On many occasions the centre has denounced the dispatch by Kigali of
35 death squadrons which are attached to the external security office, ESO,
36 in order to track down people who are very critical of the Rwandan

1 regime." And then it goes on, "Let us mention amongst others" and so on
2 and so forth.
3 Q. Now, do not read what follows, but can you tell us whether you know Mr.
4 Sendashonga, which is spelled S-E-N-D-A-S-H-O-N-G-A?
5 A. Yes, I knew him.
6 Q. Can you tell us whether he's still alive or whether he is dead?
7 A. He was assassinated in Nairobi.
8 Q. Do you know Colonel Lizinde, L-I-Z-I-N-D-E?
9 A. Yes, quite so.
10 Q. Do you know what has become of him?
11 A. He was murdered in Nairobi.
12 Q. Do you know one gentleman known as Obed Sebutama, S-E-B-U-T-A-M-A?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you know a member of parliament known as Safari, S-A-F-A-R-I?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And do you know what has become of him?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you know a person called Habimana, alias Kingi?
19 A. No.
20 Q. According to this centre, your brother's death is linked to the murder of
21 the other personalities who were allegedly killed by people sent by Kigali.
22 A while ago you said this may be a reason, but there may be other
23 reasons. Can you briefly elaborate?
24 A. I said it was a very likely hypothesis, but I do not have evidence.
25 Q. Do you know whether or not investigations were conducted with regard to
26 your brother's murder?
27 A. The Cameroon government initiated investigations.
28 Q. Which investigations were called up?
29 A. At the time, I had an investigator in Cameroon known as Jean Baptiste
30 Zikama. I phoned him to know the state of affairs regarding the
31 investigations. He told me he sought to know from the authorities, and
32 they told him the investigations had been stopped because higher level
33 authorities ordered that the investigations be shelved. He told me that by
34 phone. And, indeed, investigations were not pursued. I cannot know the
35 real reason why.
36 Q. Please, spell the name of that investigator. I think you even used a word

1 which was his name summarised, but it was not his name per se.
2 A. Yes. Z-I-K-A-M-A-B-A-H-A-R-I, first name Jean Baptiste.
3 Q. Colonel, should we understand from all what you are telling us that five
4 years, or even more than six years after the fact, we do not know the
5 circumstances surrounding your brother's murder?
6 A. No. He was my last remaining family member in Cameroon. After his
7 demise, no one else could pursue the matter.
8 Q. The President started putting questions to you with regard to your brother,
9 Mr. Pasteur Musabe, and given that we are going to revisit that area, I
10 would, however, like to clarify certain issues with you. Did you say he was
11 the general manager of a bank known as BACAR?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you tell us what was the importance of that bank in Rwandan society?
14 A. It was one of the leading commercial banks in Kigali.
15 Q. Following the events in Rwanda, did your brother remain in Rwanda after
16 July 1994?
17 A. No. He fled Rwanda in July 1994.
18 Q. Now, tell us this, because it is directly linked to our case. There is a
19 Prosecution witness, ATY, who testified on 27 and 28 of September 2004.
20 But there are others yet who gave evidence that you ordered the arrest of
21 your brother, as well as a fiancée of his, because he intended to arrest --
22 or to get married to a Tutsi, and that was eloquent testimony of your
23 anti-Tutsi feeling at the time. Can you elaborate on that?
24 A. Well, those who gave such evidence are giving a poor version of what
25 happened. Indeed, my younger brother was a fiance to a young girl
26 known as Jeanne Habarugira.
27 MR. CONSTANT:
28 That is number 41 on the list.
29 BY MR. CONSTANT:
30 Q. Carry on, Witness. Carry on, Colonel.
31 A. Let me state that the Habarugira are from Gitarama. They are Hutus.
32 That young woman,
33 Jeanne Habarugira, her father and grandfather are a Hutu family in
34 Gitarama. Now comes the question to know whether they did not get
35 married. That is another issue. Saying that there was a Tutsi we did not
36 want in our family is actually not true, because Jeanne, her father and

1 grandfather were Hutus from Gitarama. I point out that even my wife
2 hails from Gitarama.
3
4 Now, indeed, my younger brother was not able to successfully conduct the
5 engagement for another reason. Indeed, that young girl had been
6 arrested, but I advised my younger brother not to get married to that
7 young woman because her elder brother was considered by the
8 intelligence service as a CIA agent. I was a high-ranking officer in the
9 government. How can I have a family member, one who is considered by
10 the intelligence service as a CIA agent? So I told my younger brother, this
11 young woman's elder brother, Jean Baptiste Habarugira, who was in
12 Kampala at the time, was a well-known journalist in Kigali, so we cannot
13 get involved with him. My younger brother agreed, but at the time we
14 were concluding matters, the intelligence service arrested that young
15 woman.
16
17 So although my younger brother's engagement was all but over, he still

18 had some friendship ties with that young woman, so he thought I was the
19 one who had plotted against his friend.
20
21 So Jean Baptiste Habarugira was a journalist in Rwanda. He died in

22 Kampala, and perhaps Idi Amin also found him out and ordered for him to
23 be killed. And there was also Habarugira, Joseph, who I think worked at
24 OCIR. So all the Habarugiras were Hutus. So this is an issue of an
25 engagement between Hutus, which was broken off.
26 MR. PRESIDENT:
27 And this lady, she also had a Hutu mother?
28 THE WITNESS:
29 I don't know. In any case, let me point out that my wife called Isabelle
30 Uzanyizoga will testify here. Her mother -- her mother is a Tutsi, but her
31 father is a Hutu from Gitarama.
32
33 Now, my younger brother, Pasteur Musabe, he was once -- he was more

34 engaged to another lady, but he got a young woman who was a Tutsi from
35 Butare, Gatungo. She's in Brussels. In this communiqué, there is mention
36 of that woman's elder brother, Célestin Sebulikoko, who is a Tutsi. So my

1 younger brother's new wife is a Tutsi. So it shows ethnic consideration

2 really did not lead to the cancellation of that engagement.
3 BY MR. CONSTANT:
4 Q. Colonel, some clarifications regarding what you just said. So do you
5 contest the allegation that the annulment of the engagement between
6 your younger brother and Jeanne Habarugira were for ethnic reasons?
7 A. Yes, of course, because both of them were Hutus. And subsequently, my
8 younger brother got married to a younger woman who was part Hutu, part
9 Tutsi -- who was wholly Tutsi, correction.
10 Q. Can you remember the name of your younger brother's wife?
11 A. Josiane Gatungo, which is spelled G-A-T-U-N-G-O.
12 Q. That is number 39 on the list.
13
14 You also mentioned another person who is Josiane Gatungo's brother. Can
15 you tell what his name is?
16 A. Célestin Sebulikoko.
17 Q. That is number 146 on the spelling list.
18
19 That gentleman, Célestin Sebulikoko, can you, Colonel, go back to the

20 communiqué you have before you.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, look at first paragraph on the first page. Is there any allusion to that
23 gentleman? And if you find the reference to his name, can you read the
24 entire sentence?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Carry on.
27 A. “Mr. Célestin Sebulikoko, a Tutsi, sought refuge during the 1994 events in
28 Byumba, controlled by the Rwandan patriotic front. He was killed by RPF
29 soldiers.”
30 MR. PRESIDENT:
31 What we have here now is that you are reading from the first paragraph
32 on the first page. Is that what you said? And are you, then, referring to
33 this communiqué 48/99?
34 MR. CONSTANT:
35 Yes, Mr. President. When I talk about the first paragraph, that is on the
36 first part under the heading, "Rwanda assassination of Mr. Pasteur Musabe

1 in Yaoundé," and before the heading, "The reasons for his assassination."
2 And the reference to Sebulikoko comes seven lines before the end of that
3 part.
4 BY MR. CONSTANT:
5 Q. So do you confirm that Mr. Sebulikoko was indeed a Tutsi?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. Did you know him?
8 A. That my younger brother's brother-in-law. I did everything for their
9 engagement. Of course I knew him.
10 Q. So if I understand properly, you did not oppose your younger brother's
11 marriage to Josiane Gatungo, who was a Tutsi?
12 A. Of course I did not. Sebulikoko was a really close friend of mine.
13 Q. What do you mean by a close friend?
14 A. Apart from him being my younger brother's brother-in-law, we had special
15 relationships.
16 Q. Are you telling us that you had Tutsi acquaintances? Well, the question
17 I'm asking you is sort of provocative, but it might follow what is in the
18 indictment. I am asking you whether you could have a Tutsi friend.
19 A. Of course, yes.
20 Q. Do you confirm that that person was murdered in 1994?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And do you know the circumstances surrounding his assassination?
23 A. He lived in Kigali. On the 6th of April 1994, when President Habyarimana's
24 plane was attacked, he lived in Kacyiru neighbourhood close to Hôtel
25 Méridien when the RPF attacked the area which fell first was Kacyiru and
26 Remera. So immediately after the attack on the 7th in the afternoon, the
27 attack carried out by the RPF, he found himself under RPF controlled
28 territory. But since he had a Tutsi son-in-law who was a member of the
29 RPF, he was an RPF soldier, he thought that would suffice for him to be
30 protected by the RPF. So he went to Mulindi with the people who were led
31 there by the RPF.
32
33 So when he got to Mulindi -- and this is what I learned subsequently -- he

34 was identified as a Tutsi, granted, but as a Tutsi traitor because Sebulikoko
35 was an MRND member, and above all, he was Musabe's brother-in-law,
36 and he had links with Bagosora. For those reasons he was murdered.

1 MR. PRESIDENT:
2 What was the position in society of Mr. Sebulikoko?
3 THE WITNESS:
4 Sebulikoko was a businessman, contractor. He built houses. He also had
5 a shop in which he sold building wares. He was well known in Kigali.
6 MR. PRESIDENT:
7 So he was in private business.
8 THE WITNESS:
9 Correct.
10 MR. PRESIDENT:
11 And the level at MRND?
12 THE WITNESS:
13 He was a member of the MRND; however, he was not in the central
14 committee of the party. He was a known member of the MRND.
15 MR. CONSTANT:
16 We will come back to it, but while waiting for Mr. Matemanga to distribute
17 the two documents, which are document 3 on the list of documents --
18 MR. PRESIDENT:
19 So you want now to tender these two documents, 2 and 3, first?
20 MR. CONSTANT:
21 Yes, Mr. President. We can tender them now. I will continue dealing with
22 Pasteur. Actually, they're the same documents, but there is a
23 communiqué, a communiqué which is published in an Ivorian newspaper.
24 MR. PRESIDENT:
25 Yes. So do you want to start, then, with communiqué 48/99, which
26 becomes, Mr. Matemanga?
27 MR. MATEMANGA:
28 D. B198.
29 MR. PRESIDENT:
30 And do you want these newspaper excerpts also?
31 MR. CONSTANT:
32 Mr. President, what I propose is that the communiqué be 198A and the
33 newspaper article be 198B.
34 MR. PRESIDENT:
35 Okay. No problem with that, I assume.
36 (Exhibit No. D. B198A and D. B198B admitted)

1 MR. CONSTANT:
2 Mr. President, with your leave, I would like the registry to distribute the
3 two documents which are under number 3 in my list, that they be given to
4 the witness.
5 BY MR. CONSTANT:
6 Q. In the interim, Colonel Bagosora, do you mean that through the case
7 concerning Célestin Sebulikoko, that is, a Tutsi, who was assassinated by
8 the RPF because he was a militant of the MRND?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is that the only case you know, or were there others?
11 A. No, there were others, because while we were fleeing the country, there
12 were Tutsis who fled with us and whose family members were wiped out.
13 For instance, Mr. Kamana, I do not know where he is right now, he fled
14 with us. He was a Tutsi. But the remaining members of his family in the
15 commune were all eliminated. I cannot remember his first name here and
16 now, but we were in Goma together in July 1994.
17 MR. CONSTANT:
18 Kamana is spelled K-A-M-A-N-A.
19 BY MR. CONSTANT:
20 Q. Are you saying that afterwards his family was wiped out?
21 A. Yes, those who were not able to escape with him. He hails from Gitarama.
22 Q. When you say the family was eliminated, by who?
23 A. Well, I was not there. In any case, if he fled, it was because he was afraid
24 of the RPF, and he told us that his family had been eliminated, so I infer
25 that they were eliminated by people he was running away from.
26 Q. But tell us, was his family decimated before or after the RPF victory in July
27 1994?
28 A. It was afterwards while we were in Goma, because at the border with
29 Zaire, which today is known as Congo, there was no border per se. We
30 fled, but there were people who would come back to Rwanda and go back
31 and tell us, "Now your house has been destroyed. Your remaining family
32 members have all been killed," and so on and so forth. That is how he
33 told me about it. We were together in Goma.
34 Q. Colonel, can you tell us what you have before you right now, one
35 document after the other?
36 MR. PRESIDENT:

1 Yes. This D. B198A, Mr. Constant, in the sentence just above the phrase
2 concerning Sebulikoko there is this reference to co-accused in Cameroon
3 being transferred to the ICTR. Is that correct information?
4 MR. CONSTANT:
5 You are talking of the sentence, "Musabe was imprisoned in Cameroon on
6 the 29th of March 1996 amongst 12 Rwandans alleged to be genocide
7 perpetrators. He was then freed following a decision of 21st February
8 1997 by the Cameroonian court, while four of his co-detained were
9 transferred to the ICTR"? Is that what you are referring to?
10 MR. PRESIDENT:
11 Exactly. Now, amongst these four, that cannot be your client, because
12 that took place earlier, true?
13 MR. CONSTANT:
14 I propose that my client answer that.
15 THE WITNESS:
16 The four detained were myself, Nahimana, Nsengiyumva, and someone
17 else. I was one of those four. And Ntagerura.
18 MR. PRESIDENT:
19 Thank you very much.
20 BY MR. CONSTANT:
21 Q. While we are here, two small points of clarification following the
22 President's questions. So your brother was arrested at the same time as
23 yourself?
24 A. I was arrested one week before. I was arrested on an international
25 warrant of the kingdom of Belgium concerning the affair of the Blue
26 Helmets. They were arrested based on an international warrant of the
27 Kigali government, and I was also listed on that warrant, so they joined
28 me one week later in Yaoundé.
29 Q. And after that, your brother was released. Do you know after how long?
30 A. We left on the 23rd of January 1997. I left him in prison in Yaoundé. A few
31 months later, in the same year, he was released.
32 Q. To your knowledge, was your brother Pasteur Musabe sought by the
33 Prosecutors of the ICTR?
34 A. Well, the OTP people came and examined the files, and it was after they
35 failed to show any interest in Musabe's files that the Cameroon
36 government decided to release him, because they didn't want to extradite

1 him to Rwanda without any files. The Rwandan government has asked for
2 the extradition of the Rwandans who were arrested, but they had not
3 presented any charges. And given that the ICTR was not interested in my
4 kid brother's file, the Cameroon government released him, because they
5 did not have the necessary files to judge or keep on arresting him.
6 Q. One other question: Are there any other people arrested at the same time
7 as your brother and who were released because the ICTR was not
8 interested in prosecuting them?
9 A. There were 12 of us in prison, four of us were directly transferred here in
10 January 1997. Eight remained. Subsequently, other people were arrested.
11 There was Barayagwiza and Semanza, in which the ICTR later became
12 interested, and they came here to Arusha. There is, of course, my
13 younger brother who stayed there. But there is a certain Butara, Jean
14 Baptiste Butara. There was also --
15 Q. Well, Colonel, I'm sorry to interrupt, but my question is, amongst the
16 people who were arrested at the same time and freed because the ICTR
17 was not interested, can you tell us whether there was a high-ranking
18 military official?
19 A. A soldier? No.
20 Q. Are you sure of that?
21 A. Oh, yes, I remember now; there was Colonel Muberuka, Félicien Muberuka.
22 He was with us.
23 Q. Can you tell us, what was the position of Colonel Félicien Muberuka on the
24 6th of April 1994?
25 A. On the 6th of April 1994, he was the commander of Camp Kanombe, and
26 at the same time, he was the operational commander for Kigali town.
27 Q. Very briefly, what does this mean, operational commander of Kigali town?
28 A. This means that all the units positioned in Kigali town came under his
29 command from the operational point of view.
30 Q. Do you know whether Pasteur Musabe and Colonel Muberuka were
31 interviewed by representatives of the OTP?
32 A. In the case of my brother Pasteur Musabe, no, but they came to see
33 Muberuka. We were still there. They would call him and talk to him. He
34 came back and told us that he had met those people without any further
35 information.
36 Q. Do you know about the statements that Félicien Muberuka would have

1 given the OTP investigators at that period?

2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you know whether your Defence team asked for them?
4 A. My Defence team said they asked for them, but they never told me that
5 they obtained them.
6 Q. Now, do you now still have the Ivorian newspaper article?
7 A. They had taken it back from me.
8 Q. Just one question. Please refer to the fifth column at the bottom. Have
9 you found it?
10 A. That is the article signed by Matata.
11 Q. Yes, absolutely. After Matata, the little box.
12 A. Yes, I can see it.
13 Q. Can you tell us what is written there?
14 A. "Pasteur Musabe was one of the main witnesses in the case of André
15 Ntagerura, former minister of transport and communication, who is
16 currently detained in Arusha, Tanzania. He is being defended by the
17 Ivorian lawyer Mr. Fakhy Konaté.
18 MR. PRESIDENT:
19 (Inaudible)
20
21 MR. CONSTANT:
22 We agree, Mr. President, for not interrupting.
23 BY MR. CONSTANT:
24 Q. But simply, do you confirm whether your brother had the intention of
25 testifying?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. To your knowledge, do you know any other people who were supposed to
28 testify in cases before this Tribunal and who were murdered before they
29 could do so?
30 A. There have to be some, because Mr. Sendashonga also had accepted to
31 testify.
32 MR. CONSTANT:
33 I would like that this document be given to the colonel.
34 BY MR. CONSTANT:
35 Q. Please hand back this document.
36 A. Which document?

1 Q. The documents that you have.

2
3 There is the passport. Now, can you tell us what passport it is.
4 A. This is a passport issued by the Republic of Rwanda, and it is issued to
5 Gatungo, Josiane.
6 Q. I will ask you to do a small exercise, because we have a technical problem.
7 That is why I gave you the original. The photocopy of the passport is of a
8 very poor quality. The name that appears on the page of the passport is
9 illegible or blurred. Now, look at where there is a picture.
10 A. I can see that.
11 Q. Now, can you read the name that is after the name of bearer?
12 A. The name of bearer is Gatungo, Josiane.
13 Q. Can you remind this Court, who is Josiane Gatungo?
14 A. That is the wife of my young brother, Pasteur Musabe.
15 Q. Now, do you confirm that that is a photograph of your sister-in-law?
16 A. Absolutely, yes.
17 Q. Now, move to the next page. That is the overleaf, the one that starts
18 with, "This passport was issued upon presentation," and so on. Are you
19 there?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What is written on this page?
22 A. The passport was issued under presentation of the identity card number
23 27180 issued at Karago, Gisenyi, on the 16th of August 1988. There is
24 "enseigne PPN," but I don't know what that means.
25 Q. Can you proceed?
26 A. Well, under that there is a name and first name of -- names and first
27 names of children who are accompanying the bearer. You have Musabe,
28 Yvette, who was born on the 8th of October 1986, and Musabe, Egide,
29 born on the 15th of March 1989.
30 Q. Do you know those two children?
31 A. Yes, absolutely.
32 Q. Now, I will refer you to the next document, and please tell us, what is it?
33 A. This is a document issued by the kingdom of Belgium in the Brussels
34 administrative district, town of Brussels. Then it gives a list of the
35 members of the household of Gatungo, Josiane.
36 Q. Can you tell us when this document was issued?

1 A. It was issued in Brussels on the 9th of May 2005.

2 Q. Now, regarding this family membership, can you tell us about the first
3 person?
4 A. Gatungo, Josiane, born on the 23rd of June 1962 at Ntyazo, Butare,
5 Rwanda.
6 Q. Do we agree, Colonel, that this is the same person whose names are
7 featured on the passport?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you tell us what is the occupation of this person?
10 A. She's a nurse.
11 Q. And after occupation, what is indicated?
12 A. Widow since 15th February 1999 in Cameroon of Musabe, Pasteur.
13 Q. Colonel, I'm proposing that you cooperate with the court reporters, who
14 have a few difficulties following.
15 MR. PRESIDENT:
16 Yes. And another difficulty now is why are we doing this?
17 MR. CONSTANT:
18 We are coming to that, Mr. President.
19 MR. PRESIDENT:
20 Soon?
21 MR. CONSTANT:
22 Only two more questions, Mr. President.
23 BY MR. CONSTANT:
24 Q. Now, apart from Josiane Gatungo, who are the other members of the
25 family in this document?
26 A. At number 2, you Musabe, Yvette, and number 3, Musabe, Egide.
27 Q. Very well. To conclude, there is a witness called BJ, who testified on the
28 15th of April this year -- no, no, no, it was 15th April 2004. And this
29 witness provided information that, according to her, indicated why she
30 had recognised your voice. Do you remember what I'm talking about?
31 A. Yes.
32 Q. She claimed to have been present at a ceremony in your brother's house.
33 Do you remember?
34 A. Yes.
35 Q. On page 59 of the date that I have mentioned, line 3, she says that this
36 was a ceremony organised to give the child a name before baptism.

1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, can you explain to this Court what this feast was all about?
3 A. Well, there is a ceremony of feast to name a child within a period of eight
4 days -- or on the eighth day, except there are problems such as sickness
5 and so on, is a family feast which is important; that is, on eighth day of a
6 child's birth that child is named.
7 Q. Can you tell us what that means and what it means in relation to Catholic
8 baptism?
9 A. In the past in Rwanda children had to be baptised within a period of eight
10 days, but as time went on, this was not always the case. But to name the
11 child, it was strictly indicated that on the eighth day, the child had to be
12 named.
13 Q. A point of clarification, a Catholic name or a Rwandan name?
14 A. A Rwandan name.
15 Q. Why?
16 A. Well, generally speaking, all the names are given. Everyone participates
17 in that ceremony. Anyone who has a name gives it. Sometimes these are
18 names just from those who are attending and which do not come from the
19 parents. So it's a ceremony where names are given to the child, and
20 everybody gives a name. Even the baptism name that the child would
21 acquire later is given on this occasion. The child is given a local name --
22 MR. PRESIDENT:
23 Mr. Constant, is the point the date of the birth of the two children?
24 Compared to the testimony, is that the point? Can you assist your client
25 to get there now?
26 MR. CONSTANT:
27 Yes, Mr. President.
28 MR. PRESIDENT:
29 Yes. Let us get to that point now. Will you assist us?
30 MR. CONSTANT:
31 I am going to try to assist the Court, because I don't think my client needs
32 assistance.
33 BY MR. CONSTANT:
34 Q. Now, what Witness BJ said was that there was a ceremony in your
35 brother's house at the end of the year 1993. And on page 58, line 7, I
36 asked her who was the newborn being named, and she said that this was

1 the son of the person whose name was given. So my question is as

2 follows: At the end of 1993, was there a ceremony to name a child in your
3 brother Pasteur Musabe's house, a child who had just been born and in
4 which ceremony you intervened?
5 A. Well, Pasteur Musabe had only these two children that you can see there.
6 The first was born in '86, as you can see, and the last in '89. So in '93, six
7 years later, it is not possible that we would go to name someone who was
8 already six years old.
9 Q. Can you confirm that you did not have any nephew born in 1993?
10 A. No, not at all. He had only two children. That can be cross-checked. His
11 wife is there. The two children are there. They were already big. They
12 knew people. And it is true, he had only two children.
13
14 MR. CONSTANT:
15 Mr. President, I would like to tender these two documents, and I propose to
16 tender the originals. I have the authorisation of the owner.
17 MR. PRESIDENT:
18 All right. The suggestion is to tender the original passport as the first one,
19 and then this document, which is copied as the last page, as the second
20 one. Do you want them under the same exhibit number as A and B also
21 here in order to facilitate --
22 MR. CONSTANT:
23 Yes, Mr. President. You have the passport and the family form, but there's
24 no problem for them to be put under the same number.
25 MR. PRESIDENT:
26 Yes.
27
28 Mr. Matemanga?
29 MR. MATEMANGA:
30 D. B199.
31 MR. PRESIDENT:
32 A for the original passport and B for this composition of the household
33 issued in Belgium on the 9th of May 2005.
34 MS. MULVANEY:
35 Mr. President, Judge Egorov, we don't have any objection, but we do not
36 concede the legitimacy of either document.

1 MR. PRESIDENT:
2 That's noted.
4 MR. CONSTANT:
5 The translation came over as "legitimacy". Is it legitimacy or legality? I
6 didn't quite understand.
7 MR. PRESIDENT:
8 The English word was "legitimacy".
9 MR. CONSTANT:
10 Very well, Mr. President.
11 BY MR. CONSTANT:
12 Q. Colonel, we -- after Pasteur Musabe, we are going to talk about the third
13 member of your family.
14 A. That is my second sister, Régine Uwamariya.
15 MR. CONSTANT:
16 This would be number 158 on the list.
17
18 BY MR. CONSTANT:
19 Q. Can you tell us what happened to her?
20 A. She was murdered in Belgium in December 2000.
21 Q. What was her occupation prior to 1994 in Rwanda?
22 A. She was chief of personnel in the project known as GBK.
23 Q. What was the GBK project?
24 A. It was an abbreviations -- abbreviation which stands for Gishwati -- well, I
25 really cannot tell you exactly. GBK, that is the abbreviation. I really can't
26 tell you now what it means.
27 Q. Can you tell us what happened to your sister?
28 A. I have just said that she was murdered in Belgium in December 2000.
29 Q. Do you know why she was murdered?
30 A. No.
31 MR. CONSTANT:
32 Mr. Matemanga, with the leave of the Court, could you please hand over
33 some documents to the witness? Documents number 4, 5, and 6.
34 BY MR. CONSTANT:
35 Q. Colonel, in the meantime, today, that is, more than four years after her
36 murder, are the reasons and the murderers of your sister known?

1 A. No.
2 Q. You have before you a certain number of documents. Can you tell us what
3 they are?
4 A. You want me to begin by any one?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. There is an extract from a newspaper whose title I cannot see. The article
7 begins with, "Mama has disappeared or is dead."
8 Q. Now, in the box below, can you tell us what is there?
9 A. You mean the photograph?
10 Q. No. There is a box in the middle of the article which begins by the name.
11 A. "The name of Bagosora is associated with the massacre of the Belgian
12 paras."
13 Q. Now, can you identify the photograph?
14 A. Yes. It is indeed Régine, my sister.
15 Q. Can you tell us what the other documents are all about?
16 A. There is the letter addressed to Mr. Jean Coumans, examining magistrate
17 of the court of Brussels.
18 Q. Who wrote that letter, sir?
19 A. The letter was -- you can see on the last page the letter was written by
20 Mr. Gilles Vanderbeck, who was the family lawyer for my sister.
21 Q. Can you briefly tell us what is in this letter?
22 A. In a nutshell, he says that the allegation that my sister died of natural
23 causes is not correct, that this was indeed a murder, and he asked that an
24 investigation be opened.
25 Q. Can you tell us briefly what was -- what is in the third document?
26 A. The third document is a letter that I wrote to the same examining
27 magistrate, Mr. Jean Coumans.
28 Q. And what did you say in your letter, very briefly?
29 A. I had just received a copy of the document from Régine's lawyer, and
30 when I read it, I realised that it was a murder. It was not a death from
31 natural causes. I thought that I should provide some information that
32 should be included in the case file, because this was a murder in my
33 family. And after one year, you had my small brother, my junior brother,
34 who had been working on my file, and then my kid sister had also been
35 murdered. Before leaving for Europe, she had visited me here at the
36 UNDF. She was also my witness. So I started asking myself questions as

1 to whether there were -- there weren't people murdering my brothers and

2 sisters because they could be of assistance to me in the trial, and that is
3 how come I put together the information I had on me to include in the
4 case file so that the investigating magistrate should take that into
5 consideration for his investigations.
6 Q. So to conclude, you confirm that to date, two of your brother and sister
7 have been murdered without anyone knowing how and by whom?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you tell us on what issue Régine had to testify in your trial?
10 A. Well, you see, perhaps the Prosecutor realised that it was not true and did
11 not call witnesses, but initially it was said that I was in Rambura on the 7th
12 of April 1994, that I organised in Rambura during which reverend fathers
13 and Belgium technical advisers were killed. They did not say that I killed
14 them, but they wanted to involve me in that meeting which took place on
15 the 7th of April. The Prosecutor did not call his witnesses.
16
17 But as I told you, I had been arrested on the strength of a Belgian warrant
18 of arrest, so I had a case file there, and the case file was certainly still
19 there. Part of it had been transferred to the ICTR, but there was a pending
20 issue concerning the death of the Belgian citizens. So Régine was my alibi
21 witness regarding the massacre of the three fathers at Rambura and the
22 three Belgian technical advisers who taught at the college.
23 Q. The name of the college you gave is Kibihekane, K-I-B-I-H-E-K-A-N-E,
24 correct?
25 A. Correct.
26 Q. In order to make this very clear for the Court, since you have said many
27 things, you say that at some point in time the Prosecutor disclosed
28 witness statements, correct?
29 A. Yes.
30 Q. And what did the witness statements involve you in?
31 A. They said I held a meeting on the 7th of April 1994 at Kibihekane.
32 Q. Very well. And what happened on the 7th of April 1994 at the Kibihekane
33 college?
34 A. What happened there was the murder of the three technical advisers.
35 Q. And you say your sister Régine had to testify about this point?
36 A. Yes, in particular.

1 Q. And what do you say about the Prosecution witnesses?

2 A. Well, the Prosecution witnesses who were to speak to this point were not
3 called.
4 Q. And do you link this to your sister's murder?
5 A. Not necessarily. What I'm saying is that is what sort of worried me,
6 because she was not the only refugee in Europe, or in Africa, for that
7 matter. To have two successive murders, for me it was a problem. We
8 need to give reasons for their murder. Not all refugees are murdered.
9
10 Also, well, concerning Musabe, because he was a man of certain stature,

11 one can say that he was known by the RPF. There may have been other
12 people who had some grudge against him since they know that I was
13 counting on him.
14
15 Concerning my sister Régine, who had just fled Rwanda, she had just
16 spent three years there without being killed by the RPF. I was wondering
17 whether it was again the RPF, which had allowed her to pass, which would
18 send people to go and kill her there, because the RPF could have killed her
19 in Rwanda. So I started pondering this issue. That is why I wrote, making
20 all sorts of probabilities. I have said, in any case, the Prosecutor will have
21 to conduct his investigations. I have given information at my disposal.
22 MR. PRESIDENT:
23 Mr. Constant, this episode on the 7th, it's not mentioned in the indictment,
24 is it?
25 MR. CONSTANT:
26 Mr. President, I no longer know what is mentioned or what is not
27 mentioned, because the Prosecution theory is that all massacres which
28 took place in Rwanda are the responsibility of Bagosora. However, let me
29 state that in the indictment, and I can get the paragraph, there is a
30 Prosecution theory that Bagosora called Nsengiyumva in Gisenyi so as to
31 trigger off assassinations, but if the Court so desires, I can avail it of
32 documents which are Prosecution statements about this assassination.
33 But, Mr. President, I'm almost done concerning this point.
34 MR. PRESIDENT:
35 But you see, it's just an attempt to understand, again, the point. In your
36 plan, you are referring to 649 in the indictment. Do you see that, under

1 brother and sisters? So I was wondering whether that was the paragraph
2 which was relevant to the testimony we are hearing now, but apparently
3 not; it seems to be a different point. It's different, isn't it?
4 MR. CONSTANT:
5 649 concerns BJ, Mr. President.
6 MR. PRESIDENT:
7 Exactly. So it's a different point.
8 Then we need to find out what we are talking about here. Now, this
9 indictment is dated the 12th of August '99, and that's why I'm wondering
10 whether this particular episode which, according to what we hear now,
11 could raise issues where there was a need for testimony, figure in the
12 indictment.
13
14 And I don't know, is this part of the Prosecution case now?

15 MR. WHITE:
16 The Prosecution does not believe that it is specifically pled in any of the
17 forms of the indictment since 1996.
18 MR. PRESIDENT:
19 No. So what is left? You refer to a witness statement. I heard that.
20 MR. CONSTANT:
21 Mr. President, I will explain this very briefly. We should understand that
22 before the trial started, we received about 800 statements disclosed,
23 about 120 of which were talking about Bagosora, and there were
24 witnesses who said all types of things about Bagosora, that he was the
25 lover to the president's wife, that he organised the attack, that he killed
26 this person, he was at this place, he was at this other location. And what I
27 simply want to establish, Mr. President, is that today, in this particular
28 regard, there was a witness who spoke to things said by the Prosecutor
29 through a number of witnesses. It is true that today amongst the 82
30 witnesses of the Prosecutor, this was not addressed, but the Court simply
31 has to know that there were things asserted by witnesses met by the OTP
32 but who were not credible enough to come to testify. That is what I want
33 to establish, Mr. President.
34
35 But, Mr. President, I am done with this issue. We can move on.
36 MR. PRESIDENT:

1 It's not only the matter of time used, it's a matter of comprehension why
2 we are doing it, and I suppose that the point you are making is that
3 through violence, witnesses have disappeared that could have testified in
4 favour of your client. That must be the background of this evidence we
5 are hearing now.
6
7 And it seems to be now that in relation to this particular point, there is no

8 problem, because there is no evidence in relation to that episode. So
9 whatever the reasons may be for the death of the witness, it doesn't play
10 any role any longer in the present trial. Is there anything left of this point?
11 (Pages 17 to 34 by Sherri Knox)
12
13
14
15
16
17

1 1215H
2 MR. CONSTANT:
3 Mr. President, there is nothing directly, because the Prosecutor did not call
4 his witnesses just on this point. It was important for the Court to
5 understand the circumstances surrounding the murder of that lady, even
6 though my client is honest enough to state that he is simply pondering
7 without accusing anybody.
8 MR. PRESIDENT:
9 All right. That's fair enough and then the circumstances behind the death
10 of this sister. We didn't really quote anything from the second document.
11 But I understand that what's happening here is that the lawyer,
12 Mr. Vanderbeck, is arguing against the autopsy results of the doctor.
13 That's the point, isn't it?
14 MR. CONSTANT:
15 Mr. President, what I mean to say is that I have a right to establish the fact
16 that the circumstances surrounding my client's sister's death are so
17 suspicious that there should be criminal investigations. There was an
18 examining magistrate designated, and my client equally wanted that
19 examining magistrate. You see, what I would like to point out is that my
20 client's brother and sister have been killed, and so far nothing about their
21 death has been clarified. So what I propose to do is to put the last
22 question to my client regarding this document, Mr. President. Then I will
23 move to another member of the family.
24 MR. PRESIDENT:
25 Yes. And -- but is it, then, undisputed in this file that the sister was
26 actually killed, because you haven't showed us the portions of the
27 document concerning the doctor's finding? Can you just help us so that
28 we understand the second document which you did not get into?
29 MR. CONSTANT:
30 Mr. President, sometimes you ask me to move on. Then, the next
31 moment, you want me to get into the specifics. You see, I am ready to go
32 into the specifics, but I would simply like to say that up until now, this
33 investigation we started five years ago is not yet over, and Colonel
34 Bagosora, unfortunately, is being tried by a justice which is not speedy.
35 But, Mr. President, if you want, I will get to the specifics.
36 MR. PRESIDENT:
37 Good. So there is lack of clarity. There -- you had another question.
90 PRISCILLA TRILLO - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 35
1 BY MR. CONSTANT:
2 Q. Witness, kindly go back to the article "Mama has disappeared." Do you
3 have it? Can you read and, if necessary, comment on the second column,
4 second paragraph, which starts with "venu en Belgique" in French?
6 And the witness's microphone is off.
7 BY MR. CONSTANT:
8 Q. "Régine, who came to Belgium at the end of the massacres settled at
9 Molenbeeck. According to certain sources, her husband and other
10 members of her family are being murdered. Régine, equally, allegedly,
11 was threatened by the RPF." Do you confirm this point?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. Secondly, concerning the issue raised by the honourable President
14 concerning the circumstances surrounding your sister's demise, kindly go
15 to the letter written by my learned friend Vanderbeck. Go to page 3 of it.
16 A. Yes, I am there.
17 Q. Do you have a page which starts with the "la réponse proximus" in
18 French?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Kindly read the third paragraph which starts with “cinquièmement.”
21 A. Yes. "I would like to point out that in the autopsy report for
22 Ms. Uwamariya, dated 17th of December 2000, Dr. Sepulchre notes that
23 he discovered the presence in the buccal cavity of some blackish
24 substance, which has been handed to the representative of the judicial
25 police, present on the scene."
26 Q. Were you aware of that information?
27 A. I became aware of it when I received a copy thereof.
28 Q. Very well. From what you know of this letter, can you summarise for us
29 what my learned friend Vanderbeck is doing? Why is he criticising the
30 examining magistrate?
31 A. He says he did take into account all the elements to conclude that her
32 death was of natural causes.
33 Q. Did he make any specific wishes in this mail?
34 A. Yes, he did. He expressed certain wishes, but I do not know exactly where
35 it is. I read it a long time ago.
36 Q. Very well. Let us move to page 4.
37 MR. PRESIDENT:
1 But I think now we have an idea of what this is. I don't need anything else
2 now for my purposes, Maître Constant. Is there anything else before we
3 tender these three documents, if you so wish?
4 MR. CONSTANT:
5 One matter to conclude.
6 BY MR. CONSTANT:
7 Q. Can you tell us what became of Régine's husband?
8 A. She -- he was assassinated by RPF in Rwanda.
9 Q. Do you want me to repeat my question? Let me repeat my question. Can
10 you tell us what became of Régine's husband in Rwanda?
11 A. Mr. Justin Kabera, her husband, was assassinated by the RPF.
12 Q. Kabera is spelled K-A-B-E-R-A; am I correct?
13 MR. CONSTANT:
14 Mr. President, we can tender the documents under the same exhibit
15 number, if the Court so wishes.
16
17 MR. PRESIDENT:
18 All right, Mr. Matemanga. A, B, C.
19
20 The newspaper article is only an excerpt, I see, Mr. Constant, but I

21 suppose this is sufficient for your purposes. The copy we have is not a
22 complete copy of the article.
23 MR. CONSTANT:
24 Unfortunately, Mr. President, I do not have the complete copy. This is a
25 facsimile I received. I do not have the complete copy. There are certain
26 missing portions, but I simply want to ascertain that it is public knowledge
27 that that lady disappeared.
28 MR. MATEMANGA:
29 D. B200.
30 MR. PRESIDENT:
31 A, B, and C. A for the newspaper, B for the lawyer's letter, C for the letter
32 from Colonel Bagosora.
33 (Exhibit No. D. B200A, D. B200B, and D. B200C admitted)
34 BY MR. CONSTANT:
35 Q. Colonel, concerning the person who comes after your younger sister
36 Régine, who is the person?
37 A. That is Léocadie Uwamariya.
1 MR. CONSTANT:
2 That is 159 on the spelling list.
3 BY MR. CONSTANT:
4 Q. And what can you tell us about your sister Léocadie?
5 A. She is a refugee in Europe. Her husband is in gaol in Rwanda.
6 Q. And can you tell us what is her husband's name?
7 A. Mathias Nyagasaza.
8 MR. CONSTANT:
9 That is number 115.
10 BY MR. CONSTANT:
11 Q. For how long has he been in gaol?
12 A. Since 2000 or thereabouts. He was a refugee in Nairobi, so he was taking
13 the necessary steps to join his wife in Europe. And, in the meantime, the
14 Rwandan government called refugees for a national reconciliation
15 conference in Kigali. He went to the conference. At the end of the
16 conference, he was arrested and thrown in gaol.
17 Q. And can you tell us where in Rwanda is he in prison?
18 A. Last time I heard, he was in prison in Gisenyi.
19 Q. As far as you know, has he been tried?
20 A. He was tried in the Gacaca system, but the judgement has not yet been
21 passed.
22 Q. Can you tell this Court whether, to the best of your knowledge, the office
23 of the Prosecutor contacted Mr. Mathias Nyagasaza?
24 A. I cannot confirm that, but I heard that the Office of the Prosecutor
25 contacted him.
26 Q. Very well. Kindly tell us the name of your last sister, and what is her
27 current situation?
28 A. She is called Nzayisenga, Spéciosa.
29 MR. CONSTANT:
30 That is number 122 on the list.
31 BY MR. CONSTANT:
32 Q. And what is her situation?
33 A. She was assassinated in early 1995 in Gisenyi while she was returning
34 from her exile in Zaire with her baby on her back.
35 Q. What was the age of your nephew when he was murdered?
36 A. He was a baby. Let's say two or three years.
37 Q. Do you know why she returned to Rwanda?
1 A. I was a refugee in Goma, whereas she was in Kibumba refugee camp,

2 which was further north from Goma. One fine day she took the decision
3 because she was already a widow. She took the decision to return,
4 thinking that a poor widow without any political office could go and
5 recover her property. She had a house in Gisenyi town located a few
6 kilometres from Goma, so she thought that since she had a very low social
7 status -- she had not been involved in politics and she was widowed, she
8 could go back and stay in her house. When she got there, she was picked
9 up, killed, along with her child.
10 Q. And according to you, who killed her?
11 A. She was killed by the RPF. She was killed while I was still in Goma. I got
12 to know about it because there were people who went to Gisenyi and they
13 came back and told me, "Your sister has been killed."
14 Q. You said she was not in any way involved in politics?
15 A. She was a militant of the MRND like everybody else. That was all.
16 Q. From 1991 to 1994, during the multiparty system, did she have any
17 political activities?
18 A. Not at all.
19 Q. Do you know why she was murdered?
20 A. Simply because she was my sister.
21 Q. Now, you may find this funny, but can you tell us whether any
22 investigations were conducted in Rwanda to know the causes of her
23 murder as well as the murderers?
24 A. Do you want the murderers to conduct an investigation to know who
25 murdered her? No.
26 Q. But, Colonel, you should understand that the Rwandan regime is viewed
27 as a perfectly normal regime with which the Prosecutor cooperates
28 normally. So what I'm asking is whether, since someone was murdered in
29 1995, there has been any investigation into the murder?
30 A. Do not talk about that regime. There is Major Cyiza, who has disappeared.
31 There are many people who have disappeared. Now, you talk about the
32 regime --
33
34 MR. PRESIDENT:
35 The question now is: Do you know whether any investigations were
36 carried out? Let us limit our answers to that now. What is the answer?
37 MR. CONSTANT:
1 Thank you, Mr. President. I agree with the President's request.

2 THE WITNESS:
3 I am not aware of that.
5 Says the Accused.
6 BY MR. CONSTANT:
7 Q. Now, let me make a total. Out of -- out of five brothers and sisters, you
8 have three who have been murdered, one in prison, and one in exile; is
9 that correct?
10 A. Yes, that is correct.
11 Q. Colonel, in the presentation of -- that has been made of people of the
12 Akazu, Bushiru, and so on, it was said that these were people who married
13 among themselves, who lived among themselves. Now, can you tell us
14 when you married and with whom?
15 A. I was married with Isabelle Uzanyinzoga on the 10th of September 1966.
16 MR. CONSTANT:
17 This is number 161 of the list.
18 BY MR. CONSTANT:
19 Q. Where did you get married?
20 A. At the Kanyanza parish in Gitarama.
21 MR. CONSTANT:
22 And the name is Uzanyinzoga, and Kanyanza is K-A-N-Y-A-N-Z-A.
23 BY MR. CONSTANT:
24 Q. Can you tell us about the parentage of your wife?
25 A. My father-in-law is Hutu, and my mother-in-law is Tutsi.
26 Q. Can you tell us the name of your father-in-law?
27 A. Ugirashebu, Jean Denis -- or, rather, Ugirashebuja, Denis.
28 MR. CONSTANT:
29 That is number 157.
30 BY MR. CONSTANT:
31 Q. Can you tell us what happened to him?
32 A. He died from natural causes.
33 Q. I will propose, for reasons that we will talk about later, not to mention
34 your -- your mother-in-law's name. Can you write that name on a piece of
35 paper?
36
37 Witness, do you confirm that the lady whose name you have written is a
1 Tutsi?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. There is a witness who came here, ATY, and I've already gave -- given the
4 references for the 27th and 28th -- 2004, who to incriminate you, said that
5 when her husband, who was from Bushiru, wanted to marry her, who was
6 a -- a Tutsi and not from Bushiru, that you and a third person, whose name
7 I will not mention because he's going to be a witness before this Court --
8 but this was somebody who was occupying an administrative position in
9 Rwanda -- she says that your people contacted the family of ATY to
10 prevent that marriage. Do you contest that?
11 A. Yes, I contest that testimony here, yes.
12 Q. Do you -- or, rather, are you able to explain why you married someone
13 from Gitarama who is half-Tutsi and at the same time you wanted to
14 prevent another person from Bushiru from marrying someone who was
15 not from Bushiru?
16 A. That is nonsense. I cannot go and ask someone to do something that I did
17 not do myself. They would not believe me, and, furthermore, I did not
18 have any family or friendship -- relationship with the husband of ATY. And
19 I would like to seize this opportunity to say that my younger brother
20 Musabe married a Tutsi from Butare, which is even further south of the
21 country. So you have my younger brother who has married a Tutsi, myself
22 who married a wife who is part Tutsi. So you will understand from there
23 that I have brothers- and sisters-in-law who were Tutsi. So we -- and
24 myself and my kid brother, we are in a mixed family, so how can I prevent
25 someone from marrying the husband that she wished? I said no.
26 MR. CONSTANT:
27 (No interpretation)
28 MR. PRESIDENT:
29 And the point is well taken. Now, there is a lack of clarity in the
30 transcripts in relation to this person we have on a piece of paper now.
31 There is one statement in the transcript saying that she was full Tutsi, and
32 there is another statement saying that she was half-Tutsi, half-Hutu. I'm
33 confused. What is the testimony?
34 THE WITNESS:
35 Let me clarify the point. It is my wife who is half-Tutsi and half-Hutu. Her
36 mother, that is, my mother-in-law, is fully Tutsi. So my father-in-law is
37 fully Hutu. So it is my wife Isabelle who is part-Hutu and part-Tutsi.
1 MR. PRESIDENT:
2 That was useful. Thank you.
3 BY MR. CONSTANT:
4 Q. Colonel, let me come back to what Witness ATY said. Let us not forget
5 that we are in a public session, but we will not mention the name of the
6 husband. So you confirm that you do not any family relationship with
7 ATY's husband?
8 A. No. Not at all.
9 Q. At each time that someone from Bushiru wanted to get married, did you
10 have to get involved?
11 A. Well, you have to understand that when Bushiru was a kingdom, it was a
12 large kingdom. You can say, for example, a province. How is it practically
13 possible to be involved in all those things? But what I can say is that
14 there were people in Bushiru who were married to Tutsis. I will not give
15 you examples, but I know of many. So if the husband of ATY wished to
16 marry a Tutsi, he would not be the first person in Bushiru to marry a Tutsi.
17 There were others who had done that before.
18 MR. CONSTANT:
19 I'm sorry, Mr. President. You have to take a decision at the level of the
20 transcript.
22 And the interpreter would like to add that it is the name of the husband of
23 ATY which was mentioned in French, but not in the English.
24 MR. PRESIDENT:
25 All right. That was helpful. We will delete it from the French transcript,
26 and we will place it under seal. And the video will be cut, but when it
27 comes to the English, there is no need for any change.
28 BY MR. CONSTANT:
29 Q. Colonel, I will ask you to be careful.
30
31 But I would like to come back to Bushiru in the early '90s. What was the
32 population of this region, approximately?
33 A. Well, the commune could be about 60,000 peoples, and there are two
34 communes in Bushiru, so let us say 120,000 people.
35 Q. Now, when you say "120,000 men"? That is the word used by the witness.
36 You don't count the women?
37 A. Well, I would say "electors" because these are the election figures that I
1 have in mind.
2 Q. There are some people who present Bushiru as the driving force behind
3 what was known as Akazu. So does that mean it is the 120,000 people
4 you are talking about that made up the Akazu?
5 A. Well, regarding this term "Akazu," when I was still in Bushiru, that was the
6 word was not used. I started hearing about this term as from 1992 during
7 the multiparty system era. Before that, no one talked about Akazu in
8 Bushiru or even in Kigali. Is that what you're asking me?
9 Q. Well, we are going to come back to that. Now, to conclude, do you
10 disagree with what ATY said regarding this point?
11 A. Yes, absolutely.
12 Q. Can you tell us where your mother-in-law was in 1994?
13 A. In April to July 1994, she was at her home in Gitarama.
14 Q. And please tell us, where did she go after July?
15 A. Given that her husband had died some years before that, she fled with my
16 family, first of all, to Zaire, and then to Cameroon.
17 Q. Why didn't you kill her since she was a Tutsi?
18 A. My God. I'm very embarrassed. It's as if you were saying I was killing
19 Tutsis. Would you kill your mother-in-law? I cannot do that.
20 Q. I would like to recall that the Prosecution theory is that you are the
21 mastermind of the killing of Tutsis and that, according to the expert
22 witness Des Forges, you drew up a plan to kill all Tutsis in Rwanda. That is
23 why I am asking you that question.
24 A. But that is not true. That is not true. And I can give you explanations on
25 that. You are talking about my brother-in-law. From April to July in Kigali, I
26 had a Tutsi driver, and that driver is today in Kigali. I had Tutsis officers in
27 the cabinet of the minister. I can give you names. There are people who
28 are still alive. I fled with some, for example, a certain Lieutenant
29 Murasira. He was a lieutenant, but today he is a high-ranking officer in
30 Kigali. We fled together.
31 Q. Well, Colonel, the court reporters cannot follow you, so please go more
32 slowly. Can you give us the first name of the lieutenant you talked about?
33 A. Albert.
34 MR. CONSTANT:
35 This is number 84 on the list.
37 Says counsel.
1 BY MR. CONSTANT:
2 Q. Can you continue?
3 A. Well, I told you that I had a Tutsi driver. I had Tutsi officers. We fled
4 together to Zaire. When the situation became complicated and I left for
5 Cameroon, he preferred to return home and today he is a high-ranking
6 officer in Kigali and he is alive. That is an example. I was working with
7 him, and there were other Tutsis.
8 Q. You have talked about a Tutsi driver. For security reasons, can you put
9 down his name or names on a piece of paper?
10 MR. PRESIDENT:
11 Mr. Matemanga, this previous document with the witness's mother-in-law
12 on the piece of paper will then become D. B --
13 MR. MATEMANGA:
14 201.
15 MR. PRESIDENT:
16 Under seal. And now –
17 (Exhibit No. D. B201 admitted, under seal)
18 BY MR. CONSTANT:
19 Q. And while this document is being shown to the parties, does the witness --
20 the driver you have put his name down -- whose name you have put down
21 is the same one who was talked about by Witness LMG?
22 A. Yes, that is correct.
23 Q. And he was with you from April to July 1994?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Let me ask you a question on the family of your wife.
26 MR. CONSTANT:
27 Mr. President, can we tender this document while we're waiting?
28 BY MR. CONSTANT:
29 Q. Very well. As you have said, she's going to come and testify, but I would
30 like to know who were the people who were close to the family of your
31 wife, the people she met in her life and in your life together?
32 A. Well, she had five brothers. Perhaps some are dead, but as far as I knew,
33 out of those five brothers, four of them were married to Tutsi wives.
34 Q. Can you mention any brother in particular, or maybe you want to mention
35 all?
36 A. I can give the first name.
37 Q. Very well. Are you giving first names for security reasons?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Because those people are where, currently?
3 A. In any case, some are dead. Some are in Kigali. Others are abroad, so I
4 prefer to use the first names for their security -- or, rather, for security
5 reasons.
6
7 The eldest of the family was called Fidèle. Next was Evariste. The third is
8 Désiré. The fourth is Zach. The fifth I know his name, but not the first
9 name. But, in any case, he is dead, so I can talk about him. His name
10 was Filimbi.
11 Q. I don't believe I have this name. Can you spell it for us?
12 A. F-I-L-I-M-B-I.
13 Q. Apart from this brother --
14 A. But she also has sisters.
16 Says the witness.
17 BY MR. CONSTANT:
18 Q. Very well. Can you tell us whether there were other important people in
19 the family of your wife?
20 A. There was an in-law who was a member of parliament and the
21 PARMEHUTU -- and the secretary-general of the PARMEHUTU party in the
22 seventies.
23 Q. Can you give us his name?
24 A. Gérard Muvunankiko. Can I spell?
25 Q. No. Don't spell because we have the name on the list.
26 MR. CONSTANT:
27 And it is number 87.
28 BY MR. CONSTANT:
29 Q. He is an in-law of yours; is that correct?
30 A. Yes.
31 Q. And what was his relationship with your wife?
32 A. He was the paternal uncle of my wife.
33 Q. You say that he was a member of parliament; is that correct?
34 A. Yes. Member of parliament in the former regime, that is, the Kayibanda
35 regime. That is before the coup d'état of 1973.
36 Q. Can you tell the Court the party that you mentioned MDR-PARMEHUTU,
37 where was its base in Rwanda?
1 A. MDR-PARMEHUTU was basically a single party because there were

2 elections in '65 that were won by all this -- by this party throughout the
3 entire territory in Rwanda, so they became, basically, a single party; but
4 they were mainly established in Gitarama and Gisenyi.
5 Q. Very well. How can you explain the fact that you, someone who is
6 presented as someone from Bushiru and the north, you linked the fate of
7 your family to someone from the centre of the country, whereas it is said
8 that the Hutus of the north looked down on those of the centre and south?
9 A. Politically, this does not make any sense because ever since the creation
10 of political parties at the end of the fifties, that is, 1958, '59, people of the
11 Gisenyi area were more from the MDR-PARMEHUTU party. Things changed
12 only after the coup d'état. Before the coup d'état, Ruhengeri, Gisenyi, and
13 Gitarama préfectures were in the MDR-PARMEHUTU party. There was no
14 other party. In fact, they had disappeared. At the political level, I was also
15 very close to the MDR-PARMEHUTU party.
16 Q. Now, coming back to your wife, can you tell us what positions she
17 occupied?
18 A. Who are you referring to?
19 Q. Your wife.
20 A. Well, I am going to talk about the most recent positions she held. She was
21 secretary in Air Rwanda, which was an air company, airlines company.
22 She worked as a secretary there.
23 Q. Before coming back to the rest of the family, how many children did you
24 have?
25 A. I had eight children, but one died through an accident.
26 Q. I'm going to show you a list, and you will confirm, without going into
27 details for reasons of security. This is number 7, document number 7. It
28 has first names, positions, and countries of residence.
29 A. The list is correct.
30 MR. CONSTANT:
31 Mr. President, I would like to tender this list, this document, and request
32 that it be placed under seal, as well as the two other documents, that is,
33 names of driver and mother-in-law.
34
35 MR. PRESIDENT:
36 Yes. And we have tendered the document relating to the mother-in-law.
37 Now, we will deal with the driver. That's D. B202 under seal, Mr.
1 Matemanga?
2 MR. MATEMANGA:
3 Yes, your Honour.
5 MR. PRESIDENT:
6 And the then the list of the children becomes?
7 MR. MATEMANGA:
8 D. B203.
9 MR. PRESIDENT:
10 Under seal.
12 MR. CONSTANT:
13 Mr. President, it is five minutes to one. I am done with the family, so what
14 should I do? The next point is education. I do not know -- I do not know
15 what the Bench wishes us to do.
16 MR. PRESIDENT:
17 Your implicit suggestion is very wise. So we will have the lunch break now
18 and continue at 2:30. Court is adjourned.
19 (Court recessed at 1257H)
20 (Pages 35 to 45 by Priscilla Trillo)
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25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35

1 (Court resumed at 1433H)

2 MR. PRESIDENT:
3 Maître Constant.
4 MR. CONSTANT:
5 Thank you, Mr. President.
6
7 Good afternoon.
8 BY MR. CONSTANT:
9 Q. Colonel, I would like you to tell the Court -- are you okay? I'm sorry --
11 Says Counsel --
12 BY MR. CONSTANT:
13 Q. I would like you to tell the Court where you studied?
14 A. I went to primary school at the Rambura parish in Bushiru. I went to
15 secondary school at the minor seminary of Nyundo. I went to military
16 school in Kigali, and I went to war school in Paris.
17 Q. Can you state the conditions under which you came into contact with the
18 ethnic problem?
19 A. As I had the opportunity of saying, in our area there was practically no
20 Tutsi. You already had a few of them, who were not many. They had come
21 from the centre south of the country in order to come and carry out
22 administrative duties. I specified that in our sub-region, there was the
23 sub-head and his family, and three close members of his family who had
24 accompanied him. Otherwise, there were the Bagogwes. The Bagogwe
25 Tutsi were cattle breeders; they were nomads who lived in the Gishwati
26 forest.
27
28 Now, in answer to your question, I became aware that there was some
29 difference between the Hutu and Tutsi when I was in the fifth year of
30 primary school, not before that time.
31 Q. I'm sorry, can you spell the forest that you mentioned, the forest in which
32 the Bagogwe lived? It is not on my spelling list.
33 A. I spell: G-I-S-H-W-T-E (sic).
34 Q. There is no "A" between the W and T?
35 A. Yes, there is. It is W-A-T-E and not W-I-T-E.
36 Q. Thank you.
37
116 JEAN BAIGENT - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 46
1 Those that you met in the fifth year of primary school, from an ethnic
2 standpoint, and we respect your upbringing, who were they precisely?
3 A. During my fifth year of primary school, there was a book entitled, Inganji
4 Karinga. Inganji Karinga was a book written by Father Alexis Kagame. He
5 is the one who wrote about the history of Rwanda. Among other things,
6 he talked about people who justified the superiority of the Tutsi over the
7 Hutu.
8 Q. Inganji Karinga is number 47. Unless there is an error, it is I-N-G-A-N-G-I
9 (sic), Karinga. That is number 47 on the spelling list.
10
11 And the people that you mentioned, what were they like?
12 A. There are -- there is the legend -- there is the legend -- the legend that
13 you talked about. According to that legend, there is God, Imana. God,
14 Imana gave milk to Batutsi and Bahutu and also to Batwa. According to
15 that legend, the Tutsis stayed the whole night keeping his pot of milk,
16 which remained intact, until the morning.
17
18 Whereas -- well, it is the Batutsi who was able to go through the test until
19 morning, whereas Bahutu slept at night and the pot of milk fell over. Only
20 half of the milk was saved. Batwa drank his milk; he emptied his pot of
21 milk.
22
23 This is to show that the Tutsi carried out his mission successfully. The
24 Hutu did so halfway, and Batwa -- well, you cannot depend on the Batwas.
25
26 So Imana came the following morning and realised that the Batutsi had his
27 pot of milk, which was still full. That the Bahutu had only half of his milk
28 and that Batwas' pot of milk was empty.
29 So God – God, Imana said, "Well, you Batutsi, I'll give you power over the
30 others.”
31
32 This is a legend and I became aware of this legend in the fifth year of my
33 primary school.
34 Q. I will have documents given to you, with the leave of the Court. This is
35 under -- in the list of documents given out. This is document number 8.
36 But what I would like to know, Colonel, is the following: While you were
37 learning this legend, where you taught the legend to -- in order for you to
1 know that it was not true -- or true, or, why were you taught the legend?
2 Was it to explain something?
3 A. When I read Inganji's book later on, when I became an adult, he analyses
4 his book. But at that time, we were only taught the legends. The analysis
5 done in this book were not taught to us, because Inganji here says that
6 these legends were made up, were invented, certainly by the Tutsi in
7 order to justify their sense of superiority over the Hutu and the Twa. But
8 at our time, we were only taught the legends. We were told, "Just learn it
9 that way. God has said that it is the Tutsi who must dominate the others."
10 We were not ex -- told why. We were simply told, "That is it."
11
12 But in the pri -- in the fifth year of primary school, I already had some
13 open mind. At home, I never heard that the -- the Tutsi was superior to
14 the Hutu. So I was rather surprised and gradually, later on, I came to
15 understand that the problem was real.
16 Q. Can you tell the Court roughly what your age was in the fifth year of
17 primary school?
18 A. About 14 years.
19 Q. Do you have document -- the document given to you, before you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. There is the first document which is the photocopy of a book. Can you tell
22 the Court what this is about?
23 A. The document in English or the translation?
24 Q. Is there Inganji Karinga here?
25 A. Yes. Can you tell the Court what it is?
26 A. This is an excerpt of a book by Alexis Kagame who wrote a book entitled,
27 Inganji Karinga.
28 Inganji Karinga means the success of the royal drum, which bore this
29 name.
30 Q. The excerpt is at pages 63, 64 and 65?
31 A. 63, 64, 65, yes, that is correct.
32 Q. Normally, you have translations in French and English; is that correct?
33 A. Yes.
34 Q. But since you are lucky to speak Kinyarwanda, which is not the case of
35 most of us in this courtroom, can you tell us where the reference to the
36 legend that you mentioned is? The legend concerning the pot of milk?
37 A. In paragraph 11.
1 MR. PRESIDENT:
2 Why is this central to our case?
3 MR. CONSTANT:
4 This point is important for our case, Mr. President. According to the
5 Prosecution case, that is,
6 point 1.1 in the indictment – mainly, that the ethnic confrontation started
7 in 1959. We are submitting that the domination of the Hutu did not begin
8 in 1959 but well before that date. And we intend to prove that the
9 Accused, among other people, like all Rwandans when they were young,
10 were taught that the Tutsi were superior, and that we are thinking that this
11 concept, this idea, explains the crisis that occurred in Rwanda.
12 MR. PRESIDENT:
13 With other words, that the Tutsi dominated before '59?
14 MR. CONSTANT:
15 What I mean is the Prosecution -- the Prosecution case, namely, that the
16 (unintelligible) Hutu and the Tutsi occurred from 1959, and this is a theory
17 that Madam Des Forges developed in her thesis, which she presented
18 before courtroom III, and we challenged that thesis during our
19 cross-examination. We're saying that that thesis is not founded.
20 MR. PRESIDENT:
21 All right. We are in 1955 now, aren't we, because you were 14 years old,
22 and you were born in '41.
23 THE WITNESS:
24 14 years, yes.
25
26 MR. PRESIDENT:
27 So we are in 1955 now, when you were in the fifth grade, and that's when
28 you first read this book?
29 THE WITNESS:
30 Yes.
31 MR. PRESIDENT:
32 All right.
33
34 What do you want to do with this, Maître Constant, very briefly now?
35 MR. CONSTANT:
36 I still have a number of questions to put to my client in this connection --
37 of course, with the leave of the Court.
1 MR. PRESIDENT:
2 First question being?
3 BY MR. CONSTANT:
4 Q. Can you tell the Court, Colonel, whether in this book there is the legend
5 which explains how the Hutu were born? How people became Hutu and, if
6 yes, can you read the portion concerning us (sic) by telling the Court
7 where that portion is?
8 A. In Kinyarwanda or French?
9 Q. As you please, I believe there are Kinyarwanda interpreters, but if you just
10 indicate to us the portion, you can read it in French if you want to
11 translate directly or read it in Kinyarwanda, as you please.
12 A. This -- it is contained in paragraph 10.
13 Q. Very well. Tell us what is explained in this regard?
14 A. You have Kahima, Kakama and Kahiru -- Kayiru -- who were brothers. They
15 had a sister. At some point in time it became necessary that they get
16 married, that they find wives. Then, Kakama suggested that he marry his
17 sister. The suggestion was accepted. Kiyiru refused that type of
18 marriage, namely, to marry his sister. Kayiru looked for a wife in other --
19 among other families that they had met on the spot. And his brothers
20 treated him as a pariah and that is how he became a Hutu.
21 Q. When did you learn that? Did you learn it in when you were in school, that
22 is, the origin of the Hutu, you learnt about that when you were in school, is
23 that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You --
26 MR. CONSTANT:
27 Mr. President, I'm continuing, but if you want to stop me.
28 BY MR. CONSTANT:
29 Q. You said -- you said that you went to the minor seminary of Nyundo. Can
30 you explain -- is that correct? Can you explain under -- the conditions
31 under which you were admitted into that school?
32 A. It's not a college, it was a minor seminary which trained candidates --
33 those who intended to become priests. It was at an ecclesiastical school
34 which belonged to the Nyundo bishop, and it was intended to train people
35 to become priests.
36 Q. Were they’re conditions that have to be met in order to be admitted into
37 that minor seminary?
1 A. Yes, of course. One of the conditions to be admitted into that seminary

2 was that your parents had to be Christians. Then, of course, you had to
3 be -- you had to be accepted by the priest of the parish, because it is the
4 priest of the parish who chose from his parish, students whom he sent to
5 the minor seminary as potential priests.
6 Q. With respect to the choices or the selection, were there any criteria based
7 on ethnicity?
8 A. Since in our area there were not many Tutsi, the priest played a cardinal
9 role. The criteria were very subjective, perhaps he had other conditions,
10 but I'm not aware of them. But in any case it is the priest who chose the
11 children. From what I was able to find out, he gave preference to children
12 whose parents were Christians.
13 Q. Did -- at that time, did you know a school called, Astrida school centre?
14 Groupe Scolaire d’Astrida?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you tell the Court where that school was located and what it did?
17 A. Astrida at that time was in Butare. Astrida means Butare, in the south.
18 Q. What was the nature of that school?
19 A. It was a school that the Belgium administration set up in Butare in order to
20 train its assistants -- assistants in all areas: Administrative assistants,
21 technical assistants, in particular, agricultural assistants, health assistants
22 and administrative assistants, that is, public administration assistants.
23 Q. Did you ever aspire going to that school?
24 A. Practically, no. It was a school that was reserved, because the Belgian
25 administration had chosen to administer the country during that period
26 with the help of the Tutsi, whom they met, in place (sic). So the school
27 was practically exclusively Tutsi.
28 Q. I will have a document distributed. This is document number 9, with the
29 authorisation of the President of the Court, Mr. Matemanga will distribute
30 the document.
31 MR. CONSTANT.
32 In the meantime, I will tender the excerpt of the book written by Alexis
33 Kagame.
34 MR. PRESIDENT:
35 Mr. Matemanga D. B?
36 MR. MATEMANGA:
37 204.
1 MR. PRESIDENT:
2 A for the Kinyarwanda, B for the French, C for the English.
3 (Exhibit No. D. B204A, D. B204B and D. B204C admitted)
4 MR. CONSTANT:
5 Can Mr. Matemanga distribute the document?
6 BY MR. CONSTANT:
7 Q. Colonel, do you have the document?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Are you familiar with this book?
10 A. Yes, I saw it.
11 Q. Can you go to the excerpt, which is on page 25?
12 A. Yes, I'm on that page.
13 Q. Do you see that there is a diagram, diagram 1?
14 A. Yes diagram 1, I can see that.
15 Q. Can you tell the Court what this diagram is about?
16 A. This is an ethnic representation in various (unintelligible) of the country,
17 1959.
18 Q. I'm sorry, you are on page 24, I was referring to page 25.
19 A. Figure 1 on page 25 percentage of Tutsi in the Astrida school centre for the
20 period going from 1932 to 1958.
21 Q. Can you tell the Court the percentage -- when you entered that school, the
22 percentage of -- that is, 19 -- 1950, the percentage of the Tutsi?
23 A. In 19 -- in the 1950s, the proportion of Tutsi in this school was 87 percent.
24 Q. You graduated from the Nyundo minor seminary with a diploma, is that
25 correct?
26 A. Yes, I graduated with a certificate.
27 Q. And later on you talked about your going to an officers' school. Can you
28 specify what the school was about?
29 A. It was the officers’ school in Kigali that was created in 1960. The name of
30 the school changed a few years later on and the school became known as
31 the ESM, the École Supérieure Militaire.
32 Q. Was it in the same premises as the one that we'll be seeing later on?
33 A. Yes, it was in the same premises. It was only the name that changed.
34 Q. How long did you stay in that school?
35 A. Approximately two years.
36 Q. What was the purpose -- what diploma were you to obtain upon
37 graduation?
1 A. A degree, a bachelor's degree in military and social sciences.

2 Q. What were the entitlements for those who had that degree?
3 A. Since in the army there was no need for any special certificate, upon
4 graduation from that school we were promoted 2nd lieutenants.
5 Q. Therefore, upon graduation from that school in 1964 you became a 2nd
6 lieutenant, is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you specify what a 2nd lieutenant means in the military hierarchy?
9 A. It is the most junior rank in the military hierarchy. The most junior rank
10 among officers in the military hierarchy.
11 Q. Therefore, from 1964 you were an officer of the Rwandan army. Was this
12 a choice that you made?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you briefly tell the Court why you chose the military career in 1962?
15 A. There were many circumstances. First of all, there is the revolution of
16 1959. There is the many African countries that acceded to independence
17 in the 1960s. It happened that Rwanda, which was a trusteeship, did not
18 have the right to form its own army. With independence in view, the
19 trusteeship supervisory authority over Rwanda started training soldiers in
20 that country. So I joined the army for the purpose of defending the
21 democratic reforms of the revolution of 1959, and also to protect the
22 republic against the invaders who -- who were coming into being. I'm
23 referring to the Inyenzi.
24 Q. I will have a document distributed, with the leave of the President.
25 MR. PRESIDENT:
26 Are you doing anything with this previous document? Page 25
27 MR. CONSTANT:
28 I'm going to tender them together because there are three diagrams in
29 the excerpts. So I will be able to tender into evidence a short while from
30 now. But, if you please, I could tender it right away. It all depends on the
31 preference of the Court.
32 MR. PRESIDENT:
33 So you are coming back to this document?
34 MR. CONSTANT:
35 Yes, Mr. President.
36 BY MR. CONSTANT:
37 Q. Colonel, do you have the document in question?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Can you tell the Court what it is about?
3 A. It is a diploma issued by the ESM, that is, the diploma issued to me.
4 Q. Can you tell the Court why the year reflected on it is January 1983?
5 A. The diplomas were prepared subsequently, because according to the law
6 under which diplomas were issued by the school -- was not yet in place.
7 At the time we were in school, we were issued with certificates,
8 certificates which stated that we had passed. It is only subsequently
9 when the law governing the ESM was enacted that we filled forms for
10 diplomas, that is, those forms were filled by those who had passed the
11 exams.
12
13 You will see that 1st June 1967 shows that there an annex photocopy. The
14 annex photocopy was a certificate that was given when we were
15 graduating in 1964, and since the diplomas -- academic diplomas per se
16 were not issued, once the law was in place -- once the law was enacted, a
17 proper diploma was issued and care was taken to point out that the -- in
18 the original file, there was the graduation certificate that had previously
19 been issued to us.
20 Q. Can you tell the Court -- well, we had witnesses which -- who talked of
21 batches -- batches of the ESM. Were you part of any batch?
22 A. I am a member of the third batch of the ESM in Kigali.
23 Q. Can you tell us how many people there were in your batch?
24 A. We were 12 of us.
25 Q. And after graduation, did the 12 join the army?
26 A. We were 12 in school. Ten of us graduated. But today, I do not how many
27 of us are still alive.
28 Q. Very well.
29 MR. CONSTANT:
30 Mr. President, if you want we can tender this document now.
31 MR. PRESIDENT:
32 Do you want to do it, Maître Constant?
33 MR. CONSTANT:
34 Yes, Mr. President, I want to do so.
35 MR. PRESIDENT:
36 Okay. Now, this excerpt of a book by Gakusi and Mouzer -- M-O-U-Z-E-R, I
37 assume that we agree that the percentage 87 on page 25 actually related
1 to 1947-'48.
2
3 In 1950, the percentage was 86 and in the ‘50s the percentage had
4 decreased to 78-77. Isn't that the right reading of that sketch, actually?
5 So I didn't want to interrupt Mr. Bagosora previously, but you want this in,
6 and then the number is --
7 MR. MATEMANGA:
8 D. B205.
9 MR. PRESIDENT:
10 Okay.
12 MR. CONSTANT:
13 Are you referring to the diploma?
14 MR. PRESIDENT:
15 I was referring to the book. Now, we start with the diploma which
16 becomes, Mr. Matemanga?
17 MR. MATEMANGA:
18 D. B206.
20 MR. PRESIDENT:
21 I see that you graduated with distinction, Colonel.
22 THE WITNESS:
23 Oui.
25 The Witness's microphone was off, so the interpreters did not get the
26 answer, Mr. President.
27 MR. PRESIDENT:
28 He said yes.
29 THE WITNESS:
30 I said yes.
31 MR. CONSTANT:
32 Is the diploma number 206?
33 MR. PRESIDENT:
34 That is quite correct.
35 MR. CONSTANT:
36 So the excerpt of the book is 205?
37 MR. PRESIDENT:
1 That's also quite correct.

2 BY MR. CONSTANT:
3 Q. Concerning your subsequent training, you talked about a French school?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you tell us what it is all about?
6 A. I attended the joint services war college in Paris. I specify the joint
7 services war college in Paris because there were four. There was one for
8 the air force, one for the infantry, one for the navy, and the fourth joint
9 services senior war college, which had some courses shared by the other
10 three schools.
11 Q. Under what circumstances did you go for that training in Paris and when?
12 A. I was chosen by the minister of defence who at the time was chief of staff
13 and president of the republic,
14 General Juvénal Habyarimana. That was in August 1980.
15 Q. What was the purpose of the training?
16 A. Training in war colleges in all countries is to give the necessary know-how
17 to senior officers to be able to command major units from battalion or
18 regiment level, depending on the country.
19 Q. How useful was your training in the early '80s for the Rwandan army?
20 A. The Kigali officer school was becoming an academy, so initially it trained
21 soldiers to command at platoon level as well as to carry out some
22 refresher courses for junior officers to command at company level, not
23 beyond. But in order for senior officers to be trained to command at
24 battalion regiment and division level, there was need for a more
25 comprehensive training.
26 MR. CONSTANT:
27 Mr. President, I would like, with your leave, a document or some
28 documents be distributed to the witness.
29 BY MR. CONSTANT:
30 Q. Colonel, when you have those documents simply tell us what they are all
31 about, so that, if need be, we can tender them.
32 MR. PRESIDENT:
33 When you graduated in '64, Colonel Bagosora, what was the ethnic
34 composition of the ten that graduated in your batch? Do you know?
35 THE WITNESS:
36 There was no Tutsi. Just as there were no southerners.
37 BY MR. CONSTANT:
1 Q. As a follow-up question: How can you explain that there were no Tutsis
2 and there were no southerners in that school?
3 A. Initially the officers' school, which became the senior officers’ academy,
4 admitted students voluntarily and on the strength of competitive
5 examination. If they were not successful they could not enter.
6
7 Now, for southerners at the time, they did not go to that school for a
8 major reason: The government was dominated by people from the centre
9 south. They had scholarships to go and study in the west, and
10 southerners who dominated in the government, rather, sent their children
11 abroad, instead of sending them to a boarding school which was still to be
12 renown. That is why, initially, people from the south did not come. It was
13 subsequently, that is, from the fourth and fifth batches that they started
14 entering the school, when they realised it was a profession just as others.
15
16 Concerning Tutsis, there was none in our batch. But in the previous years
17 there was a Tutsi, for instance, Ruhashya Épimaque who was a Tutsi. And,
18 also, they did not enter the school in their numbers because in 1959,
19 revolution had ushered in an atmosphere which was not very conducive
20 for people wanting to join the army. They were not prevented from
21 joining, but they were not interested in joining. That is what I can say.
22 Q. Now, let me put this question to you so that we have a clear idea of this
23 issue. What was the percentage of Tutsis in Rwanda in the '50s and '60s?
24 A. It was at 15-14 percent, compared with 80 percent, given that the Twa
25 were about 1 percent or even less.
26 Q. Very well. Colonel, do you have three documents?
27 MR. PRESIDENT:
28 Do you want to spell that name found at line 15:11:32, Maître Constant?
29 He's the only Tutsi who graduated earlier -- since the name has been
30 mentioned, can you help us, please?
31 MR. CONSTANT:
32 Yes, let me spell it. Ruhashya is --
33 THE WITNESS:
34 R-S-H-Y-A -- (sic)
35

37 Says the witness.
1 THE WITNESS:
2 Oh, I'm mistaken --
4 Says the witness.
5 THE WITNESS:
6 Let me take it over again. R-U-H-A-S-Y-A.
7
8 Then, first name Epimaque. He was of the (unintelligible) batch.

9 MR. PRESIDENT:
10 All right, and now these documents, which one do you want to start with,
11 Maître Constant?
12 MR. CONSTANT:
13 I would like to state that in the list of documents, 11, 12, 13 --
14 BY MR. CONSTANT:
15 Q. Can you tell us what documents they are all about?
16 A. Starting with the first -- the first is the senior military certificate. It is a
17 certificate which was given to the person who completed studies in that
18 school.
19 Q. Very well. And next?
20 A. This -- the next one is the joint services superior studies. It was a
21 six-month course for the four war colleges: Air force, infantry, and the
22 navy. In order to study -- to be together, to deal with tactical and
23 strategic issues as well as inter-service operations together. So the four
24 war colleges in Paris at that level had a common course for a six-month
25 period. They had specialised training to prepare them to work together,
26 that is, the navy, the air force, and the infantry.
27 Q. Colonel, I'm sorry, in the French transcript at 15:44:44 or similarly before, I
28 would like to point out that the French interarmée has nothing to do with
29 the Interahamwe.
30 A. No, the French interarmée has nothing to do with Interahamwe. No, the
31 French interarmée means between several forces, joint services, the air
32 force, the infantry and the navy. So it conducted training for trainees from
33 the three forces. It was to help them to learn how to work together.
34 Q. I'm sorry, it is the same mistake which was committed at 15:06:02.
35
36 Very well. I have a problem. I am sure you have a third document --

37 A. Yes.
1 Q. But seemingly it is unfortunately not in the folder for the others, so we

2 cannot talk about it, or, I should say, not tender it. But can you simply tell
3 us what it is all about.
4 A. The third document is a certificate for military prosecutors in the L’Institut
5 -- the L’Institut international.
6
7 After the war college, there is a training for soldiers and civilians and,
8 particularly, in France for people who graduate from the École national
9 administration. They undergo that course which is at the highest strategic
10 level, politically speaking. I underwent that course after completing the
11 war college a few months before.
12 Q. For the record, can you tell us the time period covering your training in
13 France in the various schools you have mentioned?
14 A. For the senior war college, my training was from 1st September 1980 to
15 1981. This senior joint services course was followed up parallely (sic).
16 During the last phase, there was a training course organised concurrently
17 with other courses, and it was for a duration of exactly six months. I think
18 we'd started that one in August 1981 and completed in December 1981.
19 Whereas concerning the international session at the institute -- the
20 institute, I cannot remember the dates, but the course lasted two months,
21 April-May 1982.
22 Q. I have one question for you: Why did you undergo that training 15 years
23 after graduating from the Kigali officers' school?
24 A. In order to undergo such a training you must have been chosen by the
25 Rwandan army high command. That is how I was designated. In 1972, I
26 had requested to undergo training at the Belgian war college. I was not
27 shortlisted, so I waited. I do not know whether my request was favourably
28 considered in 1980. That is how I was designated eight years afterwards
29 to go and study.
30 Q. Now, if Exhibit D. B65 can be given to you or to make matters simple, I
31 have it with me.
32 MR. CONSTANT:
33 And I can give it to my client if the President so wishes.
34
35 In the meantime, Mr. President, we can tender the two certificates while
36 noting that the attestation as a student in the institute -- in the institute
37 national or international will be tendered subsequently.
1 MR. PRESIDENT:
2 You start with the Brevet, B-R-E-V-E-T.
3
4 Mr. Matemanga?
5 MR. MATEMANGA:
6 D. B207.
7 MR. WHITE:
8 If it please the Court, I believe that all of these documents are actually -- if
9 it please the Court, I believe that all of these documents are already in
10 evidence as D. B65 -- everything we just looked at.
11 MR. PRESIDENT:
12 If that's the case, we don't need them now.
13
14 Yes, D. B65 is also dated 11th December 1981, just like the Brevet.
15 MR. CONSTANT:
16 I was thinking that when I cross-examined General Dallaire I disclosed only
17 the notes referred to us, feuille de notes, in French, but if the two
18 certificates are there?
19 MR. PRESIDENT:
20 Under D. B65 it is true, as Mr. White points out, that first of all we have the
21 brevet, B-R-E-V-E-T, dated 11th December 1981. Then follows the
22 document, also dated 11th December, concerning the advance course of
23 the joint armed forces. Then follows the feuille de notes, F-E-U-I-L-L-E D-E
24 N-O-T-E-S. And finally, the 7th of May 1982 document concerning the
25 advance studies. So they're all there.
26 MR. CONSTANT:
27 Very well. If the feuille de notes or assessment, which is part of D. B65,
28 can be given to
29 Colonel Bagosora?
30 MR. PRESIDENT:
31 In 1981 you had become a major. Was that normal?
32 THE WITNESS:
33 Yes.
34 MR. PRESIDENT:
35 Was that in conformity with the normal steps? If you compare with the
36 other ten, were they approximately at the same levels in '81? Were you
37 ahead of them or -- how was this?
1 THE WITNESS:
2 From my batch and concerning my promotion to the rank of commander, I
3 was six months behind my other batch mates.
4 BY MR. CONSTANT:
5 Q. Do you have the document you referred to as, "End of course attestation
6 and assessment sheet?" “Feuille de notes?”
7 A. Yes sir.
8 Q. Very well. This second page of the end of course remarks, do you have a
9 paragraph which talks about summary of personality?
10 A. Yes, I can see that.
11 Q. Very well. Can you -- can you read that portion for us, please?
12 A. "An officer with a calm and serious nature who has followed with keen
13 attention the training in advance joint services courses; he was assiduous
14 and very attentive in all areas, and did some quality work during the
15 various exercises. Does -- demonstrating during oral exposés that he had
16 an open and clear-sighted spirit.“
17 Q. Try to explain to this Court whether you were the first, or, whether how
18 many officers have been to study in France -- I mean, from Rwanda before
19 you?
20 A. I was the first.
21 Q. And hitherto where did they go for advanced training?
22 A. They went to Belgium.
23 (Pages 46 to 59 by Jean Baigent)
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1 1530H
2 BY MR. CONSTANT:
3 Q. Now, tell us whether what you just read is something which is of no
4 meaning at all, or whether the assessment was genuine?
5 A. Well, here, I will be subjective because my instructors actually saw what I
6 was able to do. So I think it is true. In any case, they were the ones who
7 assessed me.
8 Q. According to you, can one have an idea of what this would mean for a
9 major general who signed this document – or, it would mean a calm and
10 serious nature, or open and clear-sightedness?
11 A. Well, it means that he was open to look at all parameters. If you look
12 further up in the document, there is an entry about inner quality and
13 attitude observed in the course. This is a summary of all what was written
14 down: the means of analysis and method, assessment, ability, creativity.
15 You’ll realise that C was the class average, but B plus was where I was,
16 higher than the class average. I was not below the class average. If you
17 look at column B, open mindedness, I was above the class average. If you
18 go down to social relations, as well as presentation, it is in connection with
19 those three assessments that he made such a mention under the
20 summary, "open and clear-sightedness."
21 Q. Very well. I would like to show you these documents. These are
22 documents 14 and 15, and I would like you to comment on them. My first
23 question is for you to tell us whether you are familiar with those
24 documents?
25 A. Yes, I know those documents. I drew them up.
26 Q. Can you tell this Court what they are all about?
27 A. I will begin with the diagram and the sketch where you find divisions, the
28 army units, the document which is entitled "various units within in a
29 division, and training required in order to command the various levels."
30 Then on the other document, you will find the traditional sketch for
31 military operations.
32 Q. Can we go back to the first document so that you can explain to the Court
33 what it is about?
34 A. What I wanted to say in this table is the following. I wanted to show that
35 the ESM, the military academy, trained officer or cadet officers to
36 command platoons. And once they are officers, after a refresher course,

1 the ESM provided training which enabled the trainees to command a

2 company.
3
4 At a much higher level, you have the higher war college. The war college
5 was intended for young senior officers, young senior officers who are
6 candidates for commanding bigger units, beginning with the battalion. So
7 the higher war college was intended to provide training to young senior
8 officers. I am here referring to young commanders and majors. It was
9 intended to train them so as to enable them to command battalions, that
10 is, upon their graduation, to be able to command battalions, to be heads
11 of bureaus, bureaus 1, 2, 3 and 4 in a brigade, and also to be able to work
12 in the various offices of a division, of an army division. If I talked of a
13 division here, I was taking a case or textbook example. But on the ground
14 in Rwanda, at the army -- headquarters of the army, at the brigade, you
15 had battalions, brigades, and divisions.
16 MR. PRESIDENT:
17 Maître Constant, we are getting long answers now. What is it that you
18 want to solicit from the witness? Is the point the number of persons at
19 each level, which is mentioned on the sketch? Is that the main point?
20 MR. CONSTANT:
21 No, Mr. President, what is important is just what he said. How from the
22 army headquarters you had various units; how the command operated.
23 MR. PRESIDENT:
24 Yes, but can you try to structure this a little bit? Assist the witness, will
25 you?
26 BY MR. CONSTANT:
27 Q. Colonel, can you explain how orders, according to the training you
28 received, could be issued from above, that is, from the division level,
29 which you said was equivalent to the army headquarters in the context of
30 the Rwandan army, to the bottom of this hierarchy? Can you explain how
31 orders were transmitted from the top to the bottom?
33 Your microphone, please.
34 THE WITNESS:
35 At the level of division or headquarters, how are orders given? First of all,
36 the orders are given in writing. At this level, orders are given in writing.

1 Even if you have a consultation meeting, after that meeting there are
2 written orders. There are no oral orders given at the level of the division.
3 Similarly, there were no oral orders at army headquarters in Rwanda.
4 Orders given at that level are written.
5
6 Orders are given to brigade commanders. Those orders are given in

7 writing to the brigade commanders. And when the chief of staff wants to
8 see them he convenes them in his quarters in the operations centre, and
9 he gives orders only to the brigade commanders and not to anyone else.
10 The brigade commander -- or commanders, in turn, give written orders.
11 The brigade commander gives written orders. He may command battalion
12 commanders in his operation centres. The orders to be given may be
13 discussed, but in the final analysis, the orders given must be written.
14
15 You would understand that, at this level, one must be able to find a trace
16 of the orders given for purposes of verification. The brigade commander,
17 therefore, gives orders only to the battalion commanders. This means
18 that he doesn't give orders regularly to the company commanders. The
19 battalion commanders have two possibilities: They call their -- or, the
20 battalion commander will call his company commanders. He takes notes
21 -- they take notes, just like he could issue written orders. At this level, the
22 battalion commander also has the possibility of giving orders directly, in
23 which orders may be oral to company commanders, but these are
24 exceptional cases. So the brigade commander gives orders only to
25 battalion commanders; he never goes below that level. The battalion
26 commanders will give orders to the company commanders, and
27 occasionally he may bring together all the elements of his battalion.
28
29 Once orders reach the level of the company, the company commander
30 gives orders to the platoon heads. The orders are given orally. Very often
31 the orders are given orally. Time and again he may write them down, but
32 more often than not orders are oral. The company commander also has
33 the possibility of convening the whole company and giving them oral
34 orders.
35
36 The platoon heads give orders to their troops orally, not in writing. But

1 they have the possibility of calling the section heads and giving them
2 orders, or assembling all the elements of their platoon, the section heads
3 and their troops, and giving them orders. The section heads, or the
4 section head, gives orders to all the troops of his section. Those orders
5 are oral.
6
7 What I want to underscore here is that in the military hierarchy, orders are
8 given directly to the person immediately below you. You do not skip that
9 person to give orders to someone else. That is what I wanted to present.
10 BY MR. CONSTANT:
11 Q. Colonel, for the purposes of your explanation, opposite the division, the --
12 what would be the equivalent of a division in the Rwandan army?
13 A. Yes, I would say the Rwandan army headquarters, because the staff
14 strength of the Rwandan army in 1990 was equivalent to the staff
15 strength of a division.
16 Q. Can you write that down somewhere?
17 A. Yes, I can do that. I write it, "Rwandan army headquarters, the equivalent
18 of a division."
19 Q. And what would be the equivalent of a brigade in the Rwandan army?
20 A. The equivalent of a brigade in the Rwanda army would be the operational
21 sector command, the ops command.
22 Q. From your point of view, and following what you explained, you said that
23 at the level of the army headquarters to the ops command -- orders from
24 the army headquarters to the ops command are written. When you say
25 the orders are written, of what nature would be the orders?
26 A. Such orders could be a telegram -- could be in the form of a telegram, a
27 letter. But whatever be the case, you need a reference document relating
28 to the orders that are given. Very often the orders are given in the form of
29 a telegram. But from a large -- but for a large-scale operation which
30 required special preparation, the order would be written on several
31 papers. Otherwise, you would have a telegram in order to proceed first.
32 Q. You are saying that orders emanating from the ops command to the
33 battalion level. What are the orders like?
34 A. At this level as well, the orders are written orders.
35 Q. Are you excluding the possibility of oral orders given by the ops command
36 to the battalion?

1 A. The brigade commander -- ops commander, could summon a battalion

2 commander and issue him oral orders. But in a ground operation he may
3 not be able to have access to the battalion because between the battalion
4 and the ops command, you may have several kilometres. However, he
5 could call a battalion -- or summon a battalion commander in his
6 command centre in order to give him orders.
7
8 Very often, he will call him to consult him so that together they can study
9 a given problem. Very often the battalion commander will obtain,
10 subsequently, a document which specifies the orders that were given to
11 him orally.
12 Q. So even if the orders are oral, they will be confirmed in writing?
13 A. Yes, in principle, they will be confirmed in writing.
14 Q. Can an order be begin from the division level, that is, the army
15 headquarters level, directly to a battalion?
16 A. No, but in the Rwandan army -- in the Rwandan army, since there were
17 units that were described as autonomous units, in other words, units
18 which did not depend or come under the ops command -- which were not
19 incorporated under the ops command, or units which were in the ops
20 command but which were autonomous in the sense that they came
21 directly under the army headquarters. I'll give an example: Like us, the
22 paracommando battalion -- for example, the paracommando battalion, the
23 reconnaissance battalion, these two units were autonomous and they
24 directly fell under the army headquarters. The army headquarters could
25 directly issue orders or contact those units directly. These are or were
26 autonomous units.
27 Q. And in that case, what form do the orders take?
28 A. The army headquarters will issue orders in writing, always in writing,
29 either in the form of a message or a letter.
30 Q. What is the cause -- why is it that these messages must always be
31 written? What explains this?
32 A. Normally, in military commands, moreover, in all stratified societies,
33 before issuing orders, you discuss the orders. You call those who are
34 concerned. You discuss the orders so as to be sure that the orders you are
35 giving have been understood. And when you issue the orders, you would
36 be sure that you are giving them appropriate orders that they will carry

1 out. And later on, they will have a reference document to enable them to
2 discharge their mission. But, at the same time, you will have a reference
3 document to supervise what they are doing, because commanding means
4 that you are supervising. Therefore, you can always say things orally, but
5 if there is no trace, you will never be able to determine whether the order
6 you issued was carried out appropriately.
7 Q. Colonel, one of the problems that we have in this trial is that one of the
8 Prosecution theories -- well, in the final analysis, this is fine. The
9 Prosecution -- one of the Prosecution theories say that they did not work in
10 the Rwandan army. For example, in the indictment, chapter 4, it is
11 explained that it was in the context of the regionalist approach to the
12 exercise of power in Rwandan, that it was based on political convictions,
13 that these are the factors which determined who could issue orders. In
14 your -- in your case, it is thought that you could give orders directly to
15 people apart -- without following this hierarchy. Can you give us your
16 opinion on this Prosecution theory regarding the military organisation of
17 the Rwandan army?
18 A. It is entirety wrong, and it is unimaginable. All officers who are in this
19 structure went through the same school; they were trained in the same
20 manner. Furthermore, the Rwandan army had a tradition. It had a
21 tradition derived from the Belgian army, which, in fact, is an age-old
22 tradition. That tradition accompanied the development of our army until
23 1970. When we worked together, we had Belgian technical assistants --
24 personnel who helped us. So an army with such a tradition, an army
25 where you have all officers who have undergone the same training, if
26 there is someone who tries to apply things that they were not taught,
27 nobody is going to accept that. Nobody is going to accept that, especially
28 as circumventing the hierarchy is punishable, even under the rules or
29 regulations of discipline.
30
31 What I mean is that no one, even if they intended to do so, officers at this
32 level are trained along the lines I just explained, and they would not have
33 anyone to follow them in their -- if they digressed from that approach. So,
34 in my opinion, that is completely wrong.
35 Q. A clarification for the Bench to fully understand: You talked about the
36 age-old cooperation between the Belgian army and the Rwandan army.

1 Can you explain whether in 1994 there were still Belgian officers who
2 worked in the Rwandan army?
3 A. Yes. At the army headquarters there was a colonel at the level of the
4 commando unit. There were Belgian trainers in Bigogwe. In the health
5 service in Kanombe, we had physicians -- we had doctors who provided
6 medical care. So there were still Belgians in the Rwandan army until
7 1994.
8 Q. Let us be very precise here, Colonel, because this is an important point.
9 You are saying that technical assistants, Belgian officers were in the
10 Rwandan army headquarters.
11 A. Yes, there was a colonel at that level, a colonel who was adviser to the G3
12 of the Rwandan army. His name was Baudauin.
13 Q. Thank you.
14
15 B-A-U-D-A-U-I-N.
16
17 Can you explain or specify, you said at the Bigogwe training centre there
18 were Belgians.
19 A. Yes, there were Belgians. I believe there were six in number.
20 Q. I am sorry, I did not clearly hear what you said.
21 A. I am saying that there were about six.
22 Q. Are we talking the training centre which the Prosecution says, through a
23 number of witnesses, that was used -- that it was used for the training of
24 Int -- militia, Interahamwe?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. And you maintain that there were Belgian officers at the Bigogwe training
27 centre?
28 A. Yes, there were. They left, I believe, after the 7th or the 8th. They left at
29 a time when Belgian troops came to evacuate Belgian nationals. That
30 must have been between the 8th and the 14th. I do not know the exact
31 date during that time frame.
32 Q. Coming back to your sketch, are you saying that, with respect to the
33 transmission of orders, that Rwandan army troops did not yield to other
34 considerations, apart from the technical training they had received in
35 western schools?
36 A. Certainly. Even under the regulations of discipline, you were told that the

1 person who exercised disciplinary power at every level was the unit
2 commander. You could not avoid this. It was the unit commander who
3 exercised disciplinary powers, or the chief. There was nobody else who
4 would say that because they had special relations they could exercise
5 power.
6 Q. I will ask you a more precise question. Do you remember that at some
7 point in time there was a member of the Prosecution team who, from
8 memory, was called Mr. Ossogo, who did not stay for a long time with us,
9 but one day during proceedings, he explained at length that all that was
10 said had nothing to do with African armies, because African armies did not
11 fit into this theoretical framework that you are describing here? What do
12 you say of this assertion?
13 A. I do not know his nationality, but I believe that his statement was racist. If
14 he were here, I would tell him that.
15 Q. I would like us to move on the second sketch, which you say you
16 presented. I would like you to say what this is about and what we can do
17 with it.
18 A. This document, which is entitled, "The classical sketch regarding military
19 operations," it shows the orders that are given to an army; these orders
20 are operational orders. When the commander, he gives an order, he
21 refers to the five chapters mentioned here. The head of platoon, when he
22 gives orders for military operations, in tactical manuals at this level, he
23 refers to these five headings. These same headings are taken into
24 consideration when an operational order is given. These five -- of course,
25 they become more elaborate, the higher up the hierarchy you go. But
26 these five reference points do not change. They apply to all conventional
27 armies across the world.
28
29 If I were given time to explain, I will do so. An operational order comprises

30 the person who gives the order. He must specify the mission. He must
31 describe the enemy situation. He must -- that is, he must give information
32 or intelligence on the enemy. He must describe the friendly situation, that
33 is, the atmosphere in which the mission would be carried out. Then he
34 now goes into describing how the mission will be carried out, the
35 sequences of the operation; and, lastly, you now go into logistics and
36 transmissions, that is, the means of ensuring linkage. So these are the

1 five headings that the platoon heads are taught -- that the company
2 commanders, the battalion commanders, the brigade commanders, the
3 division commanders, chiefs of staff, these are the five chapters referred
4 to when they are giving orders. So these points do not change; these
5 reference points do not change in military operations.
6 Q. Another question: Does this also apply to the Rwandan army?
7 A. Yes, the chief of -- the head of platoon, the company commanders, the
8 battalion commanders, at all levels these points were referred to. These
9 five levels were referred to in giving orders. They were, in fact, learnt by
10 heart.
11 Q. I am sorry for asking you another question. I am going to ask you a
12 concrete question.
13
14 You know that in our case reference is made to orders that were given to
15 kill. Do you mean to say, with reference to this sketch as you presented,
16 that outside the context of explanation as described, these five points, it is
17 not possible to give an order to a soldier?
18 A. If you were ordering that people be killed, that is not military -- or, rather,
19 if you were ordering a murder, that is not a military operation, not at all.
20 Murder is not part of a military operation.
21 Q. But for a commander to give an order to his troops, be it at the level of
22 the platoon or a section, company, or battalion, an order to kill, to kill an
23 enemy, would this order take a simple form or will he have to apply this
24 framework here?
25 A. In any case, every mission is cast within a framework. If you give a
26 mission -- if you are given an assignment to go and kill X, you have to
27 describe the environment in which the enemy to be killed is found. Is the
28 enemy protected? Does he have allies? Is it easy to locate the enemy?
29 So the enemy situation must be known. The situation of the enemy you
30 want to attack -- you want to attack must be known. Even in the case of
31 bandits, you must know the environment in which the bandits operate. So
32 the enemy situation must be known. The circumstances, the cycles in
33 which they operate, you must know the enemy situation, what it looks
34 like.
35
36 If you give an order to someone, for example, to come and kill someone

1 here in this courtroom. If you gave those orders while you were on the
2 ground floor, you should not only have to tell the person who he has to
3 kill, but you must also inform him that there are security guards, that
4 there are so many people, and that if he has to go alone he may be
5 captured before he completes his mission. So he must know -- the soldier
6 must know the enemy environment. He must also know the friendly
7 situation. He will say, for example, that, well, there are many in that
8 room, but in that room we have accomplices who are ready to help us to
9 carry out the mission. This is what we describe as the friendly situation.
10 MR. PRESIDENT:
11 Yes. Now, that was an interesting example, of course.
12
13 But, Mr. Constant, can we try to limit this?

14
15 Is it your view, Colonel Bagosora, that the general situation you are
16 describing now, both in relation to this sketch and in relation to this
17 model, also applies from April to July 1994?
18 THE WITNESS:
19 It applied to the Rwandan army in their fight against the RPF.
20
21 But what, nevertheless, I want to add regarding this sketch is that when
22 you have given an operational order, once the operation is completed, you
23 have to assess the operation. The assessment relates to the same model,
24 that is, the mission, enemy situation, friendly situation, execution of the
25 mission, logistical support, and then what lessons you have learnt from
26 the operation -- what have you learnt from the operation. After that --
27 after that, once you have assessed the lessons you have learnt from the
28 operation, you make recommendations -- recommendations for future
29 operations. That is what I wanted to add.
30 MR. PRESIDENT:
31 So, now, we heard the answer that this applied in relation to the operation
32 against RPF. That was his answer.
33
34 Do you have any follow-up in that connection, Maître Constant?

35 MR. CONSTANT:
36 Yes, Mr. President, because I would, nevertheless, like to recall -- I am not

1 going to refer to the entire indictment, but it is said that my client gave a
2 number of orders. I would like to conclude on this point.
3 BY MR. CONSTANT:
4 Q. Colonel Bagosora, it is said that between the night of -- from the night of
5 the 6th to the 7th -- we will come back to this later on -- but on the night
6 of the 6th to the 7th, you gave a number of orders. I would like to know
7 the following: The orders that you allegedly gave, do they fall within this
8 framework or do they fall outside this framework? It is assumed that you
9 -- or admitted that you are a soldier and that the orders you allegedly
10 gave were given to soldiers -- in any case, partially, some soldiers?
11 A. To begin with, I must say that on the 6th of April, I was not a soldier, I was
12 a reserve officer. Yes, therefore, I did not have military authority per se. I
13 was, rather, a civilian on the 6th of April.
14
15 Furthermore, the orders referred to -- or allegedly given by me, I am not

16 aware of them. Perhaps you may have to give me an example.
17 Q. To be more specific, it is said that at some point in time you, from Gisenyi,
18 gave orders for the massacres, the killings, to begin.
19 A. Since I was at the ministry of defence, if an order had been given, there
20 must be a document to that effect, for example, a telegram. I say so
21 because, from the ministry of defence, it was up to the chief of staff, as I
22 explained to you -- or, rather, to go from the army headquarters to the
23 operational command in Gisenyi from the minister of defence, this is
24 unimaginable. The ops commander in Gisenyi must ask for explanations
25 from staff headquarters, why on that occasion the ministry is getting
26 involved in their operations. They have the right to ask that question.
27 MR. CONSTANT:
28 Mr. President, I would like to tender into evidence these two documents.
29 But I would like that the documents that are with Mr. Bagosora -- he has
30 made -- written certain things on the document with his own hand.
31 MR. PRESIDENT:
32 The next exhibit number, Mr. Matemanga?
33 MR. MATEMANGA:
34 D. B207.
35 MR. PRESIDENT:
36 And D. B208. So these are the two.


3 MR. PRESIDENT:
4 So it's, then, your view that even in the event from April to July 1994, the
5 instruction concerning the written versus oral instructions were followed?
6 THE WITNESS:
7 Yes.
8 BY MR. CONSTANT:
9 Q. I would like us to come back a little -- with the leave of the Court, we'll
10 come back -- we should come back to the issue of the 1959 revolution.
11 Can you clearly tell the Court what you were doing in 1959?
12 A. In 1959, I was in secondary school at the minor seminary of Rulindo.
13 Q. In what class were you? In what grade were you?
14 A. Perhaps -- wait a minute. I was in the fourth grade. I did Greek and Latin
15 humanities.
16 Q. Can you tell the Court if you participated in what is referred to as the 1959
17 revolution?
18 A. Not at all. No, I did not.
19 Q. Can you specify whether your father participated in the 1959 revolution?
20 A. No, he didn't participate in it either, for the simple fact that he was part of
21 the former regime. He was the second personality in the -- in our
22 chiefdom. He was an adviser to the chief, so he was considered as
23 forming part of the former regime.
24 Q. Therefore, if I understand you correctly, neither you nor your father
25 participated directly in the events that occurred during that period?
26
27 As the indictment says, according to you, is 1959 the beginning of the

28 confrontation? Is it the beginning of the period of ethnic confrontation
29 between the Hutu and the Tutsi in Rwanda?
30 A. I did not clearly understand your question.
31 Q. Your indictment begins by stating that, "The 1959 revolution marked the
32 beginning of a period of ethnic confrontation between the Hutu and Tutsi
33 in Rwanda, leading in the years that immediately followed to hundreds of
34 deaths among the Tutsi and the exodus of thousands of them." I would
35 like to know your view -- your view regard -- your view on what happened
36 in 1959.

1 A. The interethnic confrontation in Rwanda did not begin in 1959. I will give
2 you an example.
3 MR. PRESIDENT:
4 Let's be a bit careful with the words here. You are now probably referring
5 to paragraph 1.1 in the indictment, are you not, Maître Constant? And
6 there the wording is "ethnic clashes," in English and (French spoken) in
7 French. Is that the word we are now discussing?
8 MR. CONSTANT:
9 Yes, Mr. President. That is the first sentence of the entire indictment.
10 MR. PRESIDENT:
11 Exactly. But, you see, is it disputed -- just possibly to save time -- that, of
12 course, there was ethnic tension in Rwanda before 1959? You see, some
13 of your previous questions gave the impression that the indictment even
14 disputed that. And I would be surprised if the Prosecution were to be of
15 the view that there was no ethnic tension before '59.
16 MR. WHITE:
17 I think that's correct, Mr. President. What it comes down to here is a
18 semantic distinction between the definite and indefinite articles. The
19 indictment says "a" period of ethnic clashes, and my friend is interpreting
20 it to be "the" period of ethnic clashes.
21 MR. PRESIDENT:
22 Yes. So isn't this breaking in open doors? Do we need to open this
23 chapter of the book before '59? I doubt it. At least, we must be clear as
24 to what we are discussing.
25
26 Maître Constant?
27 MR. CONSTANT:
28 Mr. President, perhaps we (unintelligible) the same trial. But one of the
29 great topics of argument when Ms. Des Forges came and she was a lone
30 Prosecution witness who discussed it, that before the arrival of the
31 colonialists, Hutus and Tutsis lived together in all harmony. They were
32 very kind, and it was the wicked Belgians who created everything, and
33 that even subsequent to that, it was the Belgians who provoked this, and
34 the Hutus questioned the Tutsi domination. That is what she said. I
35 cross-examined her at length on historical documents, amongst others,
36 including that of Mr. Vansina, what was contrary to what she was saying. I

1 think the words have a meaning. That the (unintelligible) of 1959 marked
2 the beginning of a period of ethnic clashes, and that before 1959 there
3 were no clashes.
4
5 But, Mr. President, if you do not want us to talk about the pre-1959 period,
6 well, I will oblige. But I -- my proposal is that we talk about 1959 only, if
7 that is what you want. That is why I was asking my client what is his
8 opinion of 1959.
9
10 MR. SKOLNIK:
11 Mr. President, I want to add something on that because that affects
12 everybody else in this trial, too. The pre-1959 period, I think, is of
13 importance. But if you are going to restrict Mr. Constant that he not enter
14 into that, I suggest, respectfully, you must ignore the testimony of the Des
15 Forges on that, too. Thank you.
16 MR. PRESIDENT:
17 Now, the point with me raising this issue was simply that we cannot spend
18 time on discussing matters that are not disputed. And you have now
19 heard the Prosecution observation in relation to the semantics in 1.1.
20 (Pages 60 to 70 by Judith Baverstock)
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36

10
11

1 1615H
2 MR. SKOLNIK:
3 If I could just answer to that. The Prosecution's statement is very
4 ambiguous, and it doesn't mean that they're stepping away from the
5 evidence that they made with Des Forges. And so that there's no
6 ambiguity about this in the closing evidence or the evidence at the end of
7 the case, I don't think we could just pass over this and go on to something
8 else. So that's my position.
9 MR. PRESIDENT:
10 Yes. And that's also my position. I do not want to exclude you from doing
11 this, but I want you to put this in perspective and make sure that we only
12 spend time on what is essential for the case, and that is our task.
13
14 So with that in mind, shall we now proceed?

15 MR. CONSTANT:
16 Mr. President, I'm ready to continue, no problem. I do not want to argue
17 on this for a long time so that people should not have the impression that
18 I am putting words in my client's mouth, but you should know that in
19 paragraph 1.1, which I read, not only is there that assertion in the
20 beginning, but there is also the presentation of an ensuing period which
21 we do not agree with.
22
23 I will bear in mind your remarks, Mr. President.
25 Now, I would like to propose that we go back to document 9, which, very

26 honestly, I do not remember whether it is already in evidence or not. That
27 is Gakusi's book. In any case, I have a new copy to hand to my client it is
28 document 9.
29 BY MR. CONSTANT:
30 Q. And, Colonel, kindly turn to page 24.
31 MR. PRESIDENT:
32 (Microphone not activated)...Mouzer's book is already 205.
33 BY MR. CONSTANT:
34 Q. Do you have that document, Colonel? Kindly tell us what is contained
35 under table 1.
36 A. That table is the ethnic representation in the various organs of power in
37 1959. On the first column you have the subdivisions in the area of
1 territorial administration, the various chiefs and officials at that level; you
2 have the Tutsi, the percentage, the Hutu, their percentage, and the total,
3 as well as the disparity index.
4 Q. My proposal to you is not that we look at the entire entries but that, when
5 necessary, you indicate for us what the situation was for chiefs and
6 sub-chiefs.
7 A. Concerning chiefs, there were 81, and the percentage was 98.8. There
8 was only one chief, but not in Rwanda, in Burundi, because my reading of
9 this report is that it covers Rwanda and Burundi. This means that in
10 Rwanda there was no chief. In Rwanda, since there was no Hutu chief,
11 you have the total of 82. So of a number of 82 chiefs, Tutsis were 81. I do
12 not understand what is the meaning of disparity index.
13 Q. Now, move to the distribution concerning sub-chiefs.
14 A. Well, we will get to sub-chiefs. There were 1,050 Tutsi sub-chiefs,
15 accounting for 95.5 percent, and 50 Hutu sub-chiefs, accounting for 4.5
16 percent out of a total of 1,100.
17 Q. Very well. Against this backdrop, can you tell us how the 1959 events
18 started leading to the 1959 revolution?
19 A. I didn't quite understand your question, sir.
20 Q. What I would like you to do is to tell us from what you remember that
21 happened in 1959. What do you remember concerning the unraveling of
22 the events?
23 A. Well, to talk about the 1959 events, you need to talk about the Hutu
24 manifesto of 1957 in which the Hutu were requesting power sharing with
25 the Tutsi. It demanded equal treatment for citizens. You have the letter of
26 dignitaries of the royal court in May 1958, if I'm not mistaken. And the
27 answer was that Tutsis have nothing to share with the Hutu, that the Hutu
28 had to actually make do with their position of servitude and enslavement,
29 vis-à-vis the Tutsi, that have been going on for centuries. So it was
30 actually the refusal to share power which triggered the 1959 situation.
31 Q. According to you, will that refusal to share power be something we will
32 revisit in 1994?
33 A. Absolutely so, because after realising that it will not have all power
34 through elections, as was the case in the regional elections in Byumba
35 and Ruhengeri in September 1993, the RPF lost woefully, whereas that
36 was an area under their control practically. So it was for that reason that

1 subsequently they did everything to impede the implementation of the

2 Arusha Accords by which they could not obtain power the way they have
3 obtained power now. So the 1994 catastrophe is equally a consequence
4 of the refusal to share power.
5 Q. Well, if documents 16 and 17 can be distributed to you, with the leave of
6 the President.
7 MR. PRESIDENT:
8 Now, coming back to this question I asked earlier this morning. If we look
9 at this list, Maître Constant, you see there we have a division of the
10 various functions and the percentages at various levels, and I assume that
11 Colonel Bagosora's father would be under number 6, conseil territorial du
12 Rwanda; is that correct?
13 MR. CONSTANT:
14 I think Colonel Bagosora is best placed to answer that, Mr. President.
16 Colonel Bagosora's microphone was off.
17 MR. PRESIDENT:
18 Is that a correct reading of this table? Because your father was not a
19 conseiller supérieur, he was a conseil -- probablement conseil territorial.
20 So he would be under number 6, would he?
21 THE WITNESS:
22 It was further down. He was against the entry auxiliaire at the lowest
23 level, because advisers in the chiefdoms were not part of the high
24 hierarchy. They were lower in rank, so it was under number 8. Or if we
25 can promote him, he may indeed be under number 7, but I doubt that
26 because it is not clearly mentioned here. There is no mention of chiefdom
27 advisers. Well, it may be number 6 or number 7.
28 MR. PRESIDENT:
29 We are talking about number 8. Then the percentage was 70 for Tutsi and
30 30 for Hutu. That's number 8 and 7, is --
31 THE WITNESS:
32 The further down you go in hierarchy, the greater the percentage of Hutus
33 represented.
34 MR. PRESIDENT:
35 Yes, of course. Thank you.
36

1 What is the next document now, Maître Constant, or the next question?
2 MR. CONSTANT:
3 Documents 16 and 17.
4 BY MR. CONSTANT:
5 Q. Do you have them, Colonel? You should have two excerpts of books.
6 MR. CONSTANT:
7 Mr. President, I may do the necessary double-checking, but I think at the
8 level of conseil territorial, it was not all chiefdom advisers brought
9 together. I do not think so, because an account of the number of
10 chiefdoms that there were, 1,050, I do not think that the conseil territorial
11 will have only 125 members.
12 BY MR. CONSTANT:
13 Q. Because if I understand clearly, Colonel Bagosora, your father was a
14 member of a chiefdom advisory counsel?
15 A. That is correct.
16 MR. CONSTANT:
17 Mr. President, before the end of this trial, we'll have a historian who will
18 answer all our questions in this connection.
19 BY MR. CONSTANT:
20 Q. Colonel, can you take a look at the documents and tell us whether you are
21 familiar with them, what they are all about?
22 A. Well, Overdulve's book, I have read it.
23 Q. Very well. What about the first document starting with page 98?
24 A. It is what is referred to as not only social aspects in Rwanda. It is what I
25 had talked to you about.
26 Q. Well, without dwelling on it, kindly go to the end of this document, that is,
27 page 111, and tell us those who are the signatories of this document.
28 A. Yes, I can see them.
29 Q. Now, tell us whether the names ring a bell in your mind?
30 A. Well, I knew some of them.
31 Q. Tell us which of them?
32 A. Maximilien Niyonzima was a political figure in Gitarama. Grégoire
33 Kayibanda was the president of the first republic. Claver Ndahayo was
34 equally a political figure in Gitarama. Isidore Nzeyimana was a politician
35 in Butare. Calliopé Mulindahabi was a politician in Gitarama and minister
36 in the '60s. Godefroid Sentama was a politician from Gitarama. Silvestre

1 Munyambonera, I do not know him. I do not know Joseph Sibomana.

2 Joseph Habyarimana, alias Gitera, was a politician in Butare.
3 Q. You refer to it as the manifesto of the Bahutu, but the title on page 98 is,
4 "Note on the social aspect of the racial problem in Rwanda."
5 A. Yes. That was the initial appellation, but it later on became the manifesto
6 of the Bahutu.
7 Q. So why was it referred to as the manifesto of the Bahutu?
8 A. If you look at that same page, 98, further up, what we can read is this is
9 the full document of the Bahutu manifesto as published in the book by
10 Nkundabagenzi, "Rwanda Politique et dossier" and so on and so forth.
11 Q. Well, I understand that properly that today it is referred to as the
12 manifesto of the Bahutu. What I do not understand is that initially that is
13 not how it was referred to. It was only subsequently that it was referred to
14 by that name.
15 A. I think it was from when Nkundabagenzi wrote that book. I am sure he is
16 the one who dubbed the document manifesto of the Bahutu. That is my
17 opinion.
18 MR. CONSTANT:
19 For the court reporters, Nkundabagenzi is N-K-U-N-D-A-B-A-G-E-N-Z-I.
20 MR. PRESIDENT:
21 And more generally, there were very many names listed very quickly now.
22 The court reporters will find this on page 111 in this book of Overdulve, so
23 it's not complicated to find that.
24
25 Next question.
26 BY MR. CONSTANT:
27 Q. As far as I'm concerned, it is still in connection with what the Prosecutor
28 says in his indictment, that 1959 marked the beginning of a period of
29 clashes.
30
31 In this document, is there any pointer to the fact that the Hutu wanted to
32 engage clashes with Tutsis?
33 A. No, it was not their intention to enter into any clashes. What they wanted
34 was equal rights as Rwandan citizens.
35 Q. Kindly go to page 101 of the document.
36 A. I am there, Counsel.

1 Q. Have you seen the heading of paragraph 2? What was the indigenous
2 racial problem comprised of? Can you tell the Court briefly the problems
3 raised by the signatories of the document?
4 A. Yes. There is the monopoly of the political power as we saw in the table.
5 This is the number one problem. The monopoly of economic and social
6 power related to employment. Then you have the problem of
7 employment. At that time, also there was the problem of patronage,
8 (unintelligible). According to this system, if you were a chief or a
9 sub-chief -- I know my father also benefitted from this at his level -- you
10 could have free labour, free unpaid staff who worked in your house. So
11 point number two is a monopoly of economic and social power.
12
13 And then you have the monopoly of cultural power. In fact, the monopoly
14 of cultural power meant that in the royal court, the royal court wanted to
15 impose its ideology, the ideology of superiority. The -- the royal court
16 wanted to have a categorised population which put the Tutsi ahead, the
17 Hutu in the middle, and the Twa at the bottom of the hierarchy.
18
19 I think these are the major points raised in the document, the monopoly of
20 cultural power, social and economic power, as well as political power.
21 These are the major points contained in this document.
22 Q. Can you tell us the main points or the main claims raised by the
23 signatories of this document referred to as the Hutu manifesto?
24 A. It's equal rights.
25 Q. Can you go to page 104?
26 A. Yes, I am there.
27 Q. There is a first point. Can you say what that is?
28 A. The abolition of forced labour.
29 Q. Is that related to what you said a short while ago?
30 A. Yes. The Hutus were forced to work for nothing in the homes -- or in the
31 homes of their Tutsi masters or those who were co-opted in the command,
32 like my father.
33 Q. You said that your father also enjoyed the benefits of this free labour?
34 A. Yes, I saw people who came to work for him for nothing.
35 Q. The second point in that document is the legal recognition of land
36 ownership. What did this relate to?

1 A. This meant that land in Rwanda belonged to the -- those in power, and
2 those in power were mainly the Tutsi. Consequently, the Tutsi had the
3 right to have their cattle graze on land belonging to the Hutu. The Hutu
4 had the right to farm his land, and after harvesting, he didn't have a right
5 to return to that land. It would be Tutsi cattle that would graze on that
6 land until the Hutu returned during the period of farming again.
7
8 So according to this proposition, everyone should have his land. If a Hutu

9 had a piece of land, he could build a fence around it and raise his cattle, if
10 that -- the Hutu could use his land as he pleased without exposing it to
11 grazing by cattle belonging to the Tutsi.
12 Q. To conclude, can you go on to the next page, page 105, and tell us the
13 fifth point, tell us what the fifth point is about.
14 A. It's freedom, it's on the freedom of expression.
15 Q. Does it mean that the Hutu did not enjoy freedom of expression at this
16 time?
17 A. No. There was a system referred to as the ubuhake system. You had to
18 learn to guess what the boss wanted, and then proceed along those lines.
19 Q. Do you confirm or rebut that in this document of 1955 there is no appeal
20 to kill the Tutsi or an appeal to the effect that the Tutsi should leave
21 Rwanda, as we seem to understand from chapter 1.1 of the indictment?
22 A. Not at all. All that is sought here is a sharing of power and enjoyment of
23 equal rights. It is a request and a very polite request, for that matter.
24 Q. Can we now move on to the next document which I had distributed to
25 you?
26 A. Yes, I am on it.
27 Q. Can you tell us what it is about?
28 A. Here I can see --
29 MR. PRESIDENT:
30 Are we now in the Lugan's book or the second excerpt of Overdulve's
31 book?
32 MR. CONSTANT:
33 The second excerpt. It is the second excerpt, Mr. President. I've not yet
34 gone to the Lugan book.
35 BY MR. CONSTANT:
36 Q. Colonel, do you have that document?

1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Can you tell me what it is about?
3 A. I'm going to read it. This is the historical detail -- the historical details of
4 the reign of the Banyiginya in Rwanda.
5 Q. We are on page 115. I do not know what -- which page you are on.
6 A. Page 115. Do I have it? I did not have it.
7 Q. I'm going to give you my copy, because apparently there is a
8 photocopying problem.
9 MR. PRESIDENT:
10 All right. Make sure that we all get a copy of page 115, then, since we
11 start 116 here.
12
13 So what's the question?

14 MR. CONSTANT:
15 I would like my client to identify the document.
16 THE WITNESS:
17 The document is entitled "Writings by Bagaragu from 19 -- dated 1958."
18 BY MR. CONSTANT:
19 Q. First of all, can you spell the name that you just mentioned?
20 A. Bagaragu, I spell that: B-A-G-A-R-A-J-U (sic). Bakuru, B-A-K-U-R-U.
21 B'ibwami, B-'-I-B-W-M-I (sic).
22 Q. Can you say what this is about or what it is referring to?
23 A. Here reference is made by the writings of the dignitaries of the royal court
24 of the time.
25 Q. Can you now go to the next page and tell us the gist of what this
26 document contains, and if need be, read an excerpt of it?
27 A. This, in fact, is a response to the manifesto of the Bahutu. I can read a
28 passage which struck me. This is on page -- I do not see the numbering of
29 the pages here. This is on page 117, paragraph 1, which begins with,
30 "The relations amongst us, the Batutsi, and they, the Bahutu, have always
31 been up to date based on enslavement. Therefore, there is, between
32 them and us, no basis for fraternity. Indeed, what relations exist between
33 the Batutsi, Bahutu, and Batwa? The Bahutu claim that the Batutsi,
34 Bahutu, and Batwa are the sons of Kanyarwanda, their common father.
35 Can they tell us the name of their mother and the family to which she
36 belongs? In fact, here is a refusal of any common ancestry or sharing."

1 Q. Another question, Colonel: The mention of Kanyarwanda, is this also

2 related to legends?
3 A. Well, let us say that this is the common ancestry of the Tutsi, and this
4 goes right back to Kanyarwanda.
5 (Pages 71 to 77 by Sherri Knox)
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1 1645H
2 BY MR. CONSTANT:
3 Q. Do you remember these two documents in 1959 when you were in the
4 Nyundo minor seminary? Were they mentioned?
5 A. Yes. But these were the -- it was -- it wasn't in the form of a book like this.
6 Q. What I want to know is whether this was discussed in your school. Was it
7 discussed in your school or not?
8 A. We did not discuss this document, but we read it. We read the
9 documents.
10 MR. CONSTANT:
11 Mr. President, what I suggest is that Mr. Matemanga should retrieve the
12 documents so as to make a photocopy of page 115 because I do not have
13 any other copy of page 115 with me.
14 BY MR. CONSTANT:
15 Q. Witness, I would like to know the following: Between these documents,
16 the ones we have seen, the document of '57, which you said was a
17 manifesto of the Bahutu, and the document of '58, according to you, these
18 advisers of the king, did they express the position of all the Tutsi, the
19 majority of the Tutsi, or a Tutsi minority? What, in fact, did they
20 represent?
21 A. It is the -- the high command of the Tutsi hierarchy. The Bagaragu
22 B'Ibwami are the highest level of the Tutsi hierarchy, so this reflected the
23 ideas, the ideology of the Tutsi. This reflected what the Tutsi high
24 command wanted because we do -- we should not forget that all the Tutsi
25 did not derive advantages from this system. There were small Tutsi who
26 sometime were lost among the Hutu. So, here I am, referring to the Tutsi
27 who are at the command -- who are the command level of the country.
28 This expresses the -- their policy, the policy of the existing power at the
29 time, and the existing power at the time was dominated by the Tutsi.
30 Q. But, Colonel, can you explain how we arrive between the position of the
31 manifesto, the refusal of the king’s advisers, and the violence? Can you
32 explain how the violence came about?
33 A. You have the Bahutu, who continued asking for their rights, you have the
34 Tutsi, who refused categorically to share any power. At some point in
35 time, there were tensions. In the higher counsel of state, where there
36 were only a few Hutu, the -- the clashes were open to the extent that even
37 the -- the B'Ibwami Rudahiwa of the time had to intervene in the course of
1 a meeting to say that the Hutu-Tutsi problem does not exist; that those
2 who want to create it are the enemies of national unity and they must be
3 fought by all means.
5 The witness used some names there which he could perhaps spell for the
6 record.
7 BY MR. CONSTANT:
8 Q. I'm going to give you a document and you will tell me whether you are
9 familiar with it, whether it reflects anything.
11 MR. PRESIDENT:
12 Yes. Go back to 16:46:38. Will you do that, please? Look at the answer,
13 the first three lines. I suppose also in French we didn't get that. Can you
14 give us these names, please? It was incomprehensible.
15 MR. CONSTANT:
16 It is not a name. It was a question. My question is -- or was, how we
17 move from the Bahutu manifesto, the refusal of the advisers, to violence.
18 That was my question.
19 MR. PRESIDENT:
20 So we may have different versions then.
21
22 Mr. Witness, in your answer, you said "it is the high command of the Tutsi
23 hierarchy, the" -- and then you gave a long Kinyarwanda name, started
24 with "bag." Now, please take that long name again because we lost it.
25 Can you spell it, please? Again, I don't know whether it's significant, but
26 there must be order in the transcripts. Go ahead, please.
27 THE WITNESS:
28 I talked about -- about the Bagaragu B'Ibwami.
29 MR. PRESIDENT:
30 That's the one. Please help us with that expression, please.
31 THE WITNESS:
32 To translate or to spell it?
33 MR. PRESIDENT:
34 Let's start with the spelling.
35 THE WITNESS:
36 B-A-G-A-R-A-J-U -- G-U. Sorry. Then space -- you leave a space. B,
37 apostrophe, I-B-W-A-M-I. In French, these are the main dignitaries of the
1 royal court.
2 MR. PRESIDENT:
3 And then the interpreters drew our attention to your very last answer. Did
4 you mention names there as well?
5 THE WITNESS:
6 In my answer, I gave the name of the B'Ibwami, Rudahiwa. I spell that
7 name. R-U-D-A-H-I-W-A, Rudahiwa.
9 The President's microphone, please.
10 MR. PRESIDENT:
11 Now you want to move to Lugan's book, I understand.
12 MR. CONSTANT:
13 I'm going to ask two questions because I read the transcript, and it
14 doesn't seem to be quite clear.
15 BY MR. CONSTANT:
16 Q. I'm going to repeat two questions. The first, Colonel, is the following: We
17 have this statement dated May 1958. I would like to know whether it
18 represented the opinion of the Tutsi, the majority of the Tutsi, or of the
19 minority of the Tutsi. And how -- what did people think of this, and what
20 did this opinion reflect?
21 A. This, I told you, represented the ideology of all the Tutsi. To say that the
22 Tutsi had nothing to share with the Hutu, this was the general ideology of
23 the Tutsi.
24 Q. Question number 2: How do we move from the manifesto of the 1957 of
25 the Bahutu to this refusal, or to this violence to -- how did we arrive at
26 violence?
27
28 Do you need some water? Are you all right?

29 A. I need some water, please, but warm water.
30
31 The problem is that the Hutu continued asking for equality, for sharing.
32 The Tutsi on their part refused these demands, but, of course, there is a
33 point that we did not mention, that is, the supervisory authority that
34 existed at the time. The supervisory authority which also, during that
35 period, wanted to introduce democratic reforms. Therefore, from the
36 1950s -- when I talked about the elections of 1953, these elections were
37 organised by the Belgian supervisory authority or power. The colonial
1 administration wanted to carry out reforms along the same lines as the
2 claims or requests made by the Hutu.
3
4 So at some point in time, Hutu requests were supported by the colonial

5 administration. At the time -- consequently, when the Tutsi realised that
6 the colonial administration was somehow supporting their subjects, they
7 took the initiative of using terror to quiet -- to make the Hutus who were
8 vocal to keep quiet. And it is at that time that the Hutu chief of Gitarama
9 was attacked, and the revolution started with that attack. Perhaps this
10 was not envisaged, but this act of aggression perpetrated the sub-chief --
11 Hutu sub-chief in Gitarama. Perhaps I should spell the name?
12 Q. No, I have it. This is the name -- I'll spell it. Number 62 on the list.
13 A. So the Tutsi started attacking the Hutu to terrorise them, to prevent them
14 from talking, to prevent them from expressing their views, so they
15 attacked this sub-Hutu chief. The local population rioted. I do not think
16 this was envisaged, but the clashes started. They spread from hill to hill,
17 and the clashes went beyond the territory of Gitarama to Ruhengeri to
18 Gisenyi. So there was violence everywhere in Rwanda. But while the
19 Hutu were attacking, they did not attack every Tutsi, I must specify. They
20 attacked Tutsis who had political power, political positions in the
21 administration, that is, the chiefs and sub-chiefs. The pop -- the general
22 population at that time was not concerned. I think this should be made
23 clear.
24 MR. CONSTANT:
25 I would like Mr. Matemanga to give a document to my client while I
26 continue asking him questions.
27 BY MR. CONSTANT:
28 Q. Do you mean to say by this that the origin of violence, which occurred in
29 1957, did not stem from the Hutu but rather from the Tutsi?
30 A. It is the Tutsi who were the first to attack by attacking the Hutu sub-chief
31 who was based in Gitarama.
32 Q. Do you make a comparison between this and what was going to be
33 experienced a few years later on?
34 A. I can say that whenever -- whenever the Inyenzi attacked in a given area,
35 there were always reprisals against the Tutsi who were in that area. This
36 is unfortunate, but this is what happened.
37 Q. Now, you have the document before you.
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Can you tell us what it is about?
3 A. This is an excerpt of Bernard Lugan's book on the history of Rwanda from
4 the prehistoric period to recent times.
5 Q. Apparently, earlier on, you made reference to a point containing the
6 excerpt, and this is reflected on page 354. Do you confirm that?
7 A. What did you say?
8 MR. PRESIDENT:
9 Which page number?
10 MR. CONSTANT:
11 I hope we have the same -- we have the -- we have the same page. Page
12 364 and 365.
13 BY MR. CONSTANT:
14 Q. Very well. You referred to an event which occurred --
15 A. Can you be more specific regarding the event and after that --
16 Q. I said pages 364 and 365. I would like you to be more specific about the
17 event and tell me whether it is referred to in Mr. Lugan's book.
18 A. There is a quote in the middle. It begins with, "That is why B'Ibwami
19 Mutara” -- the name I gave is the name, the family name of Rudahiwa;
20 otherwise, the name of the king is Mutara. “B'Ibwami Mutara Rudahiwa
21 attended all the discussions of the higher counsel of the state, which
22 discussions took place on 9 June 1958. At the end of the deliberations, he
23 made the following declaration: -- I do not know whether I should read the
24 declaration.”
25 Q. Yes, please do.
26 A. "I do not think I am mistaken by stating that" --
27 Q. Please proceed slowly.
28 MR. PRESIDENT:
29 Why -- why do we need to read this? You are going to read it and we are
30 going to have it in French. Just explain, Maître Constant?
31 MR. CONSTANT:
32 Mr. President, it is in this statement that the king stated that he refused to
33 take into account the claims or requests made by the Hutu, and that is the
34 last statement, and that whoever acts against -- rather, whoever is
35 opposed to him is going to suffer. This is to say that the Hutu were never
36 the source of violence, be it in 1959 or 1990. This is the point I'm making,
37 Mr. President.
1 MR. PRESIDENT:
2 Okay. And now we have the point on record. That's excellent. Maybe
3 now we don't need to read it. Can we move on?
4 MR. CONSTANT:
5 Mr. President, would you allow my client to read the last paragraph of this
6 quote because, in my opinion, it is the basis of our case, especially, as you
7 are only two. There are two judges now, and the person absent, the judge
8 absent, is not French-speaking.
9 MR. PRESIDENT:
10 I wonder whether this statement from '58 can be the core of the case, but
11 go ahead with the reading. Go ahead. So what do you want to read now,
12 just to get over it?
13 MR. CONSTANT:
14 Mr. President, I would make the points clear. I don't want there to be any
15 understanding between us. The Prosecution's theory is that '59 is the
16 beginning of the massacre of the Tutsi. That is the theory he has been
17 presenting. Those are the grounds, that Hutus are violent people who
18 regularly massacre Tutsi. I want to prove from given documents that that
19 is not the case, so it's not for the pleasure of doing so. It is the reality of
20 the matter. That is all the theory of Madam Des Forges, of the Prosecutor.
21 The only thing I want my client to read is the last extract of the quotation
22 because you will note that, even in the first one, there is the grounds of
23 the present Kigali position that there is no division, everyone is equal, so
24 there is no ethnicity, there are no Tutsis, everybody's good looking,
25 everybody is kind. So what I want merely is that my client to read the last
26 two lines of B'Ibwami Mutara's, King Mutara's quote, with your permission,
27 Mr. President.
28 MR. PRESIDENT:
29 Yes, and you already have it. But, you see, my problem is simply you will
30 have it when you are arguing at the end of the case, so it's only a matter
31 of time consumption. That's what I'm concerned about, but if we are
32 going to discuss something so lengthy whether we shall read or not, we
33 better read. Then we are losing time.
34
35 Now, will you start reading soon as -- as soon as possible, Mr. Bagosora, so
36 we can finish this sequence.
37
1 What do you want him to read, Maître Constant?

2 BY MR. CONSTANT:
3 Q. Mr. Bagosora, could you kindly read the last paragraph beginning with the
4 word "il" in French?
5 A. “Whoever attacks Rwanda or seeks disunity will have to pay dearly for it.”
6 Q. Now, did the events of 1959 follow thereupon?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you, therefore, confirm that the violence that began --
9 A. It was the Tutsi who first attacked the Hutu sub-chief in Gitarama whom I
10 referred to.
11 Q. Can you tell us how many hundreds of Hutu -- hundreds of Tutsi that were
12 killed and left the country as it is stated in the environment?
13 A. In the sixties?
14 Q. And then what happened subsequently after?
15 A. There were local elections in the sub-chiefdoms and chiefdoms.
16 Grassroots elections were held in June 1960.
17 Q. And what was the result of those elections?
18 A. The result was it was the PARMEHUTU that won the most votes, followed
19 by APROSOMA, follow by UNAR, which was for the Tutsi.
20 Q. Can you tell us what those names mean?
21 A. You know, it was the king's party, and it refers to the union nationale
22 Rwandaise, Rwandan national union.
23 Q. And what happened after the elections?
24 A. After the elections there was what is termed the Gitarama coup d'état of
25 January 1961.
26 Q. That is to say --
27 A. Whoever had been elected throughout Rwanda in the chiefdoms and the
28 sub-chiefdoms were called to Gitarama, summoned to Gitarama, by the
29 interim government -- at the time, there was an interim government. And
30 Grégoire Kayibanda, he called all the bourgmestres, all the counsellors -- I
31 can't remember how they were called at the time, the bourgmestres.
32 Anyhow, they were summoned to Gitarama, to a congress, and at that
33 time, they deposed the monarchy.
34 Q. And, subsequently, that democratic expression was accepted? That
35 expression of democratic will was accepted?
36 A. No. The UNAR and the other Tutsi parties claimed all the way up to the
37 Security Council, and went all the way to the Security Council, and there
1 were elections on the 25th of September 1961 on the two questions

2 regarding the monarchy. The question was: Does the Rwandan people
3 want monarchy or the republic? And, at the same time, also there were, I
4 believe, legislative elections, that is to say, for members of parliament.
5 The results of those elections rejected the monarchy, and it was the
6 MDR-PARMEHUTU who won the elections with more than 75 per cent.
7 Q. Those elections, were they undertaken democratically, under international
8 control, since you referred to the Security Council?
9 A. Yes. The elections were supervised by the United Nations. I personally
10 remember that I served as the interpreter for someone named
11 Dorsaintville who came from Haïti. He was supervising the elections in
12 Gisenyi préfecture, and as it was during the holidays, he needed an
13 interpreter; and I was the one selected to act as an interpreter for
14 Dorsaintville from Haïti, so there must have been others elsewhere.
15 MR. CONSTANT:
16 Dorsaintville is D-O-R-A-N-V-I-L-L-E (sic).
17 BY MR. CONSTANT:
18 Q. And when you speak to -- when you speak of Haïti, you mean the country
19 called Haïti, H-A-I-T-I.
20
21 Were those elections considered to be democratic, those elections under

22 international control?
23 A. No. Because that's when the Inyenzi attacks started.
24 Q. Before we start speaking of Inyenzi, what happened with the king and the
25 court?
26 A. Well, there was an interim government because it was Belgian tutelage,
27 and the Belgian colonial administrative -- colonial administration found a
28 refuge for him in another country somewhere. I know not where.
29 Q. But he left because he wanted to leave, or he left because he was chased
30 away?
31 A. It was the Belgian colonial administration that took charge of him, so I
32 cannot tell you.
33 MR. CONSTANT:
34 Perhaps I will stop there, because I finished on that topic. In other words,
35 we finished the whole of the personal aspects, before I go on to another
36 topic. And I wish to enter these extracts from the Overdulve and of
37 Bérnard Lugan.
1 MR. PRESIDENT:
2 So, Mr. Matemanga, we will start with the Overdulve, and they are two
3 excerpts there. We will consider them as one. So just make sure that we
4 get all the relevant pages into the Overdulve exhibit, which will then be D.
5 B?
6 MR. MATEMANGA:
7 D. B209.
9 MR. PRESIDENT:
10 And then this brief excerpt of Lugan, D. B210.
12 (Pages 78 to 84 by Priscilla Trillo)
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1 1714H
2 MR. PRESIDENT:
3 So you are now finished the personal life, that is, the first chapter.
4 Tomorrow, you are going to start with the social life, Mr. Constant?
5 MR. CONSTANT:
6 Yes, sir, that is the second chapter. Your Honour, I think that tomorrow
7 we'll even be able to get through to the end of the third part.
8 MR. PRESIDENT:
9 All right.
10 MR. CONSTANT:
11 There was a problem of my contacting Mr. Bagosora. Has anything been
12 done or decided?
13 MR. PRESIDENT:
14 The situation remains the same. A Bench of two cannot reconsider
15 something decided by a Bench of three, but we may come back to the
16 matter. For the time being, the situation is as decided on Friday.
17
18 The Court is adjourned until tomorrow morning at 8:30 – 8:45.

19 (Court adjourned at 1717H)
20 (Page 85 by Jean Baigent)
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3 CERTIFICATE
4
5 We, Judith Baverstock, Sherri Knox, Priscilla Trillo, and Jean Baigent,
6 Official Court Reporters for the International Criminal Tribunal for
7 Rwanda, do hereby certify that the foregoing proceedings in the above-
8 entitled cause were taken at the time and place as stated; that it was
9 taken in shorthand (stenotype) and thereafter transcribed by computer;
10 that the foregoing pages contain a true and correct transcription of said
11 proceedings to the best of our ability and understanding.
12
13 We further certify that we are not of counsel nor related to any of the
14 parties to this cause and that we are in nowise interested in the result of
15 said cause.
16
17
18 ___________________________ Judith Baverstock

19
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21 ___________________________ Sherri Knox

22
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24 ___________________________ Priscilla Trillo

25
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27 ___________________________ Jean Baigent

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220 ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I

222 ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I

(Military I) - Bagosora Et Al - Redacted Transcript of 24 October 2005

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(Military I) - Bagosora Et Al - Redacted Transcript of 24 October 2005

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1 THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL FOR RWANDA

6 For the Defence:

2 JUDITH BAVERSTOCK - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page i

22 Today is the testimony of Colonel Bagosora.

26 Good morning, Colonel.

36 Is there a document that we have in front of us?

4 JUDITH BAVERSTOCK - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 1

11 You will now be examined in chief by Defence counsel.

13 Maître Constant, you have the floor.

6 JUDITH BAVERSTOCK - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 2

8 JUDITH BAVERSTOCK - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 3

1 Before this honourable Court, I am asserting that I assumed my

10 JUDITH BAVERSTOCK - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 4

1 A. Bushiru is the former traditional region, because Bushiru comprised two

12 JUDITH BAVERSTOCK - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 5

30 All right, we will continue.

14 JUDITH BAVERSTOCK - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 6

1 The witness's microphone is off.

16 JUDITH BAVERSTOCK - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 7

1 A. Well, this is historical. In the 1930s, the Belgian colonial administration

18 JUDITH BAVERSTOCK - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 8

16 Did she equally hail from Bushiru?

20 JUDITH BAVERSTOCK - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 9

1 So the question now is whether you maintain your working method or

22 JUDITH BAVERSTOCK - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 10

2 But, Mr. Constant, you are leading up to something, probably a previous

19 Also, in traditional rites, we paid tribute to the ancestors, and in order to

24 JUDITH BAVERSTOCK - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 11

1 July to 2'04, not 2'05.

26 JUDITH BAVERSTOCK - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 12

10 Do you have any kinship relationship with the family of President

28 JUDITH BAVERSTOCK - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 13

23 What is the first exhibit number now, Mr. Matemanga?

30 JUDITH BAVERSTOCK - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 14

32 JUDITH BAVERSTOCK - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 15

34 JUDITH BAVERSTOCK - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 16

36 JUDITH BAVERSTOCK - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 17

1 Q. Kabuga is spelt K-A-B-U-G-A.

3 Do you know what your sister is accused of?

38 JUDITH BAVERSTOCK - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 18

40 JUDITH BAVERSTOCK - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 19

42 JUDITH BAVERSTOCK - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 20

44 SHERRI KNOX - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 17

46 SHERRI KNOX - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 18

1 you have any direct or indirect contact with your brother?

48 SHERRI KNOX - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 19

50 SHERRI KNOX - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 20

52 SHERRI KNOX - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 21

17 So although my younger brother's engagement was all but over, he still

21 So Jean Baptiste Habarugira was a journalist in Rwanda. He died in

33 Now, my younger brother, Pasteur Musabe, he was once -- he was more

54 SHERRI KNOX - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 22

1 younger brother's new wife is a Tutsi. So it shows ethnic consideration

19 That gentleman, Célestin Sebulikoko, can you, Colonel, go back to the

56 SHERRI KNOX - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 23

33 So when he got to Mulindi -- and this is what I learned subsequently -- he

58 SHERRI KNOX - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 24

60 SHERRI KNOX - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 25

62 SHERRI KNOX - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 26

64 SHERRI KNOX - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 27

66 SHERRI KNOX - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 28

1 given the OTP investigators at that period?

68 SHERRI KNOX - ICTR - TRIAL CHAMBER I - page 29