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Phillips and Alfredo Jaar Source: Art Journal, Vol. 64, No. 3 (Fall, 2005), pp. 6-27 Published by: College Art Association Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/20068397 Accessed: 28/08/2010 02:41
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Patricia
back
to the many
over
conversations studio on
Alfredo
actually
you were
the first
person
Imet
when
I came
to
for SITE
an lucky
extraordinary
Features
recent
in hor circum
The Aesthetics
of
There and
challenges
in the world.
is it about
Alfredo
Jaar
centrated
stances in Angola
Jaar: that effort I am continent and energy
irresistibly
I feel is
Imust
to expose
happening
to go to Angola
because music music accessing of my from sound of a
is based on my collection
event. As you know, creative created and moving. today, and in spite
of African music
I collect African of that it is some
particular
incredibly being
I think of
the difficulties
instruments. music of Portuguese and combine music, About influ Cape this the four
I like
of Portuguese
beautiful
time. I had
organizing
collection, As I listened
a song
called
"Muxima."
different
recorded at different
visualize land mines, the the AIDS, same
song.
as a structural
element
about
both
Alfredo Jaar's The conversation took place in New York studio on Tuesday, May 3, 2005.
Jaar:
used
music
in a couple
of works
and
in a
performance,
but
it never
7 art journal
Alfredo
Finnish Passports, Jaar, One Million 1995, one million facsimiles, passport high of view, Museum security glass, installation Art, Helsinki Contemporary (artwork ? Alfredo Jaar) In a room-sized space, Jaar stacked repli cas of actual passports.The enormous, minimal accumulation the represented one million whom Finland immigrants would host if the country had the same of its European immigration policy as most neighbors (approximately its population). 20 percent of
music covered
since the
Iwas healing
very
young.
I even of music
of being trip
a musician. As
But you
I first know,
dis the
powers
to Rwanda.
was from
tragedy what
impossible was my
to describe a significant
adequately. part of a
process.
work
regarding
the use
explored of
projects?I ment
thought
I could is how
as an ele shape.
to structure
began
to take
than images,
every the
instruments, Even
a musical of the
piece lyrics,
in a very
compelling
Phillips:
not. a
is embodied
direct and listen and
in away
vivid
For many
particular
collective to a
young,
the
time
believe kind
Iwas
And
reminds hear
of obsession. actually
which hope
eight?
will be unforgettable for the audience?and will remind them later of the feel ings and images evoked by the film. There are so many special things happening
with music. I haven't theorized very much about this, but I intend to explore it further.
gener
reconnaissance.
is the first
begin part
case,
I had
his
aware by
talk
ing with
began
of the possibility of a short film. On the first trip I didn't film at all. I did, how ever, photograph places that I thought might be locations for a film. And then
I started wanted nicate It has There lions working to make that not are this on very fantastic down not many annually, a possible script. points. from Although For oil example, has not and it was very flexible and open, commu expect. Angolans. to bil I precise wealth to Iwanted had social to somehow we might
trickled sadly
improve
health signs of
visible when
of dollars
you
visit most
the country.
FALL 2005
Phillips: tions
There of poverty
are
two
disparate Angolans
the economy
of oil
and
the condi
Jaar:
Yes,
and
to connect
economies
in every
frame.
Phillips: I know that, in addition tomusic, film has been a sustained influence for you. But I think this is the first time that you have made a film. Could you
talk about your process, how you developed a concept and structure.
to show Angola in a unique and different light. I also imposed on myself certain directives that I called dogma. It is loosely based on Dogma 95, by Lars von Trier.'
No actors, no special effects, no lighting, no special sounds, etc. ... Iwanted to
expressing
minutes. of Giuseppe
asmuch
Iwanted Ungaretti,
as I could. We filmed
to do who a short expresses possible visual
twenty
poem
thirty-three
so much to achieve
three words
in a poem.
Iwondered
if this was
with
a film.
Structurally, I divided the film into ten cantos. Iwas thinking of Canto General,
that is divided
Cantos. Each canto I used Japanese focuses would five,
rules.
three,
is what
a haiku
does?this
clarity.
something
with
each piece, I've used a lot of text in one fashion or another.When I first designed the film, Iwas going to use text at the beginning of the film to intro
duce the audience So Iwrote to Angola and give a panoramic essay. view of the country's a long time, prob finally lems. a very I analyzed it for
I.The Dogma 95 manifesto, written by the Danish directors Lars von Trier and Thomas Vinterberg, promulgates a set of rules with the aim of establishing an anti-illusionist cinema. To read the manifesto and related texts, see martweiss.com/film/dogma95.shtml.
comprehensive
the question:
10 FALL 2005
film
communicate I used
through
images
and
unnecessary.
of multiple
cantos
fragmented I could
structure make
of Angola. I thought
suggest
is a partial
is much
But I really struggled with the decision of leaving the text out. I even thought of another idea: with the introduction of each canto, Iwould include a brief text. For example, the title for Canto Six would have been something like:
"Canto Six, or how to deactivate a land mine, one of 18million." Iwas desperate
production.
thing?it was fantastic! But the knowledge of Angola in Namibia is of course radically different from what an audience here might know about Angola. As
you know, only about 15 percent other of Americans cultures is truly have a passport, and their lack of dramatic.
knowledge
the work. Do
It seems you
a more that,
investigation
demonstrated
Jaar: This may have to do with using film. As you know, I studied film while studying architecture in Chile.When Imoved to New York I could do neither
film nor architecture, so I ended up doing art that, in many ways, was a combi
nation of both. But during all these years I have thought of myself as a frustrated filmmaker who just never found themeans and opportunity towork in film. The extraordinary privilege of the filmmaker is that she or he has an audience in a
very pared particular to spend state of mind. In a movie the film, sits theater, a spectator chair, arrives and mentally there pre is one time with in a comfortable
focal point of attention that attracts all the senses. The kind of attention
commands have is extraordinary, with Iwas able and I have always envied this power to communicate This people are is why an audience. to be more free than ever and before. to watch To view the
that film
that filmmakers
encouraged
to enter
at the beginning
three-minute film. There is a schedule and the film will not be looped. As much
as possible, Iwould like to create a real cinematographic experience. Working
within
give watch up
the film language and context for the first time, I thought that I could
the and text listen and other elements under gallery because ideal context. people have the opportunity that in museums is to alarming and gal to the film or conditions?something I observe people
ly absent
in a museum
11 art journal
Alfredo 1986, installation Jaar, Rushes, sub views of public project, Spring Street way station, New York (artwork ?Alfredo Jaar)
of
art.
It is
appalling! people
It is very to take
frustrating. time,
This
is
why
I have I can't so
to stop,
to read. down
to slow desperate
that down
engage
in a of my
to slow
the context
In so many of navigation.
your
installations is expectation, quality that and areas has people to been have
you
use
There
progressive
light
shockingly your of
spaces
strategy art.
for overcoming
without have
is part
of
film project. we
to think is part we of
in this new
open
process. versions
discussed
listened
Although evocative
factual
in their
communicate
conditions.
to research detention
whether Kong,
center dumping
Hong in
site of projects, or
toxic
Nigeria. did
or how
crisis
in the world? there was interested of no Internet. This made and how life dif This could to
I started
to work I have
always
came
the newspaper. always fascinated discover about day on a same in the how
I learned by
read
ideological obvious
or more
event. studio reading I could of which publication. two, afford where three, that day. only
depending to a buy or
Internet,
in the United
day
reasons.
There by
illustrating
news
images
papers, often to support distinctly different ideological positions. I found this really fascinating. This was parallel tomy discovery of New York, which I found
12 FALL 200?
incredibly exciting but incredibly insular. As I got to know the artworld, Iwas shocked by its provincialism. I decided early inmy career that Iwanted to bring the news of theworld to the artworld. Iwanted to construct bridges to link the almost fictitious When
were crater at this no in the same
reality of the artworld with the realities of the real world. I began reading about the gold mine at Serra Pelada in Brazil, there
No photographer surrounded a had by ever one been hundred Fellowship, there. I just read about this vast Roughly me to rain time, forest thousand and miners. this allowed
images.
I received
Guggenheim
the experience moment Why tion. After pers, munity, and on, did weeks
as I could. case would outrageous neglect just of need reports the close examina
international of witnessing,
It is not
a matter
but it is about being present and sharing with other people who have left their homes and families to be there. It is about being part of a developing network of
support happened and assistance. You simply react as a human being. This is how Rwanda for me.
I don't know if I have heard you talk so vividly about the process of witnessing, but I think it is a central feature of your work. The idea of bearing witness invokes a kind of gravity and weight that is vividly palpable. Phillips:
Jaar: artwork. to come my this work lived It pushes you as an artist. There The of is no way challenge representation. to translate what I see and is why into an me
as a series
do we represent
Instead, a specific
a new seen
with own
I have a certain
faced level
reality,
it with
it demands
sibility This is not fiction! So I create little realities for the artworld
based because I have human on lived I have been. being. experiences. been I cannot here think These and of there. a better experiences And have changed is what only me. the work it is because
that are
I am
I am who
of where but as a
as an artist,
It is an extraordinary
as an artist
to communicate
these experiences.
a particular medium to a response
I don't have
on my
particular
that is connected
it means lived to work
to a
experiences. where
You to
as an artist
investigate,
to do when
or are produce. depicted how
So no matter
14 FALL 2005
process connects
01
editing work
and over
I don inspired by
twant
to
so many
frequently As human
about beings,
responsibility. we seek
are
issues
the work?
it means of
work?and
the consequences
of our work.
always
a process
reflection. What
this keep and is a dilemma your bearings
does itmean
for you?the as you move of the art world?
I know
do you
frustrations
the distractions
because of this for you? Actually, letme be simplistic and graphic. I often show
and tion discuss the fact and your work with go students. Every now of and then, a student will ques for based that you return to witness York or the horrors to make money in Rwanda, your work
instance, on other
to New suffering
people's
trauma.
to be confronted
manifesto. had of to suffer I never
as artists
art out
ing? Or should we
invisibility rage, my only own
image,
to put
Rwanda
to express in Rwanda.
as I did, of
a memorial solidarity
how have
memorials What
people. cost
bition or
a rock
concert
Thousand resources of
can't
I dedicate
and Tens
resources? cities
thousands
around
the world.
percentage
How much
These this question true that one
is this worth?
are of has just a few I of the possible cite responses Godard. or aesthetics, find condition ethics. Whatever of representation, to this question. He said but that it is no one be Regarding "it may less be true of the
ethics,
always
Jean-Luc ethics
always
at the
end
the very
aesthetic they
our
strategies
this unavoid
from
Phillips: It is interesting that,with a few exceptions, there is little sustained institutional critique of the media. On the other hand, when Philip Gourevitch
goes to Rwanda and writes about what he saw, there was no ethical challenge.3
15 art journal
Alfredo
1995, archival Jaar, Real Pictures, color photographs, instal boxes, silkscreen, lation view, Centre d'Art Santa Monica, Barcelona (artwork ?Alfredo Jaar)
Is there
something
about
visual
art
that makes
it very
vulnerable
to these
cri
tiques? Does
with other images? people If you that not
and challenging
if not
relationship
when
condemned,
produce
spent I am ethical
the
same
amount sure
of
that he writing
confront
challenges reason we
Rwanda. good
not they
do
not
respect place
same above
intellectuals.
that people
intellectuals
Phillips: Alfredo,
identify Generally, production bling generally Jaar: As that a public art is not
people
that art
often
it trou produce
intellectual audience
culture. see and understand The today role gives art as of the
a critic
have
intellectual critic is
work?that absolutely
ideas. culture
critics
their analysis
landscape read the late
critical and
Said,
intel
Latin
opinions.
country
have
respect
intellectuals.
ethically,
ly about these issues and ideas. Could you talk about Lamentof the Images(2002)? It is a disquieting and complex project architecturally and spatially. And light is a
powerful ing controls agent in the work. culture did this There along are with with concisely selected texts and about absence the the of increas images. of visual you the withholding Real Pictures where They were stored
In some Rwandan
respects,
as well withheld.
photographs?were
in archival
with
a description
in film,
secreted within.
I am fascinated your
it is did You
images.With
perhaps images. of
photography,
Rwanda.
changed
your
work?
exercise,
16 FALL 2005
Alfredo Jaar, Lament of the Images, 2002, on plexi texts mounted three illuminated by glass, light screen, texts composed David Levi Strauss, installation view and detail of first version, Documenta 11, Kassel (artwork ?Alfredo Jaar)
on
exercise was
fail
and
so on. tragedy
Basically, and my
this incapac
structure
the Rwandan
to represent
it in a way
that made
Phillips:
are an
Serial exercises that are inadequate or fail yet inform the next project
way to think about process. There is a long history in art of
intriguing
beholding images, so it is striking when images are withheld. And yet this in your work actually creates very vivid effects about process of withholding
the absence These of images. were a response this at a loss. to the dimension that, a year of in most before the tragedy did and my not want
Jaar:
exercises
incapacity to hear
cases, I started
to create
these works. And then I felt that I had to keep trying new strategies, but was
always gained an artist. frustrated a new The with insight dozen on the results. images It is true and that after the Rwanda never since the project, same do I again not use as Iwas done
or more
projects
Rwanda
18 FALL 2005
Cape Town, South Africa, February 11,1990. Nelson Mandela is released from prison, after 28 years of brutal treatment by the apartheid regime. The ?mages of his
release, broadcast live around the world, show a man squinting
rock surrounded
of the Cape of Good Hope. Only seven miles off Cape Town, the island had been used as a maximum security prison for
"non-white" men since 1959. Mandela's fellow inmates there
included Walter Sisulu, Ahmed Kathrada, and Govan Mbeki, the father of current South African President Thabo Mbeki. Mandela later said that Robben Island was "intended to cripple us so that we should never again have the strength and courage
to pursue our ideals."
In the summer of 1964, Mandela and his fellow inmates in the isolation block were chained together and taken to a limestone quarry in the center of the island, where they were put to work breaking rocks and digging lime.The lime was used to turn the island's roads white. At the end of each day, the black men had themselves turned white with limedust. As they worked, the lime reflected the glare of the sun, blinding the prisoners. Their repeated requests for sunglasses to protect their eyes
were denied.
There are no photographs that show Nelson Mandela weeping on the day he was released from prison. It is said that the
blinding light from the lime had taken away his ability to cry.
recent
work
in
Angola.
I am
suspicious
and
entertainment.
the general public iswell educated regarding images. Generally, we are taught
how to read, but we are not taught how to look.
see?or
and
analyzing
developed. as a visual never artist All in this of my system works where after the Rwanda reception became it as a
Jaar: of
images
critical?
exercises philosophical
an exercise.
I described
I had read an article in the New York Times about Cor bis, a photo agency owned by Bill Gates, becoming the largest photo agency in the world, purchas ing millions of images from different international photo agencies and signing important museums of the world. Then he bought the Bettmann and UPI archive that has some of themost significant images of the twentieth century. Today I think he owns one hundred million images that he will contracts with themost archive in an abandoned quarry in Pennsylvania. Although he plans to digitize
this vast collection, the process will take about five hundred years to complete!
^^^^^^^^^^^^HHI
experience
because
jfigg BHB ? ^H ^H
M. llRpniMfHMiJM? ? :?^H m> i j?S^^^H i?*??""? ?> ? ??? .? .? ? . ? M^???m ..w^nn? .^^H^ . "' ". ^"? ." "' * "i'jiT |B^. n7 "SmZ1?111?J!JS^?SS?55 y^?l^H jp?.i M*^**?i?M.Ml?W^^^^M
I finished
oners off with were the white
the pris
reflected quarry the war of in
prisoners' were
the quarry
Several about
Afghanistan
started
like everyone
the purchase
all avail
So
Jaar: Because of my poor English, I asked my friend David Levi Strauss to com
pose the texts for me. As you know, he is one of the most brilliant critics and
thinkers on photography
"blinding" experience
today. Iwanted
to the audience. So
to complete
the next
space
nated screen that simply contained light without images, but a very powerful light that left the audience temporarily out of sight and shocked into blindness.
We access the tions Images Phillips: are living today and never in a paradoxical Our situation. landscape control about There has never by been images. so much But at to information time, we images. have Iwanted had is saturated of images
same and
by private
corpora
governments.
this
is a modest
essay
relationship a balance
You mention
try to maintain
work
that you
Alfredo Jaar, The Skoghall Konsthall, installation views of public project, Sweden Skoghall, (artwork ?Alfredo
2000, Jaar)
Jaar: The Montr?al project was interesting but difficult for me. I accepted this opportunity shortly after I finished the Rwanda project. Iwas offered a space to in a prominent former Parliament building called the display images inwindows The images were going to be lit from behind, transforming the windows Cupola. into light boxes. But after the RwandaProject,I knew itwould be difficult for me to
use images. I accepted this project because it was a challenge. I often put myself
in these difficult situations. I don't know why, but this is how I function best. I
visited shelter Montr?al that offered several meals times, and I discovered people next to the Cupola shelter a homeless had a moving to 3,200 each month.The
told me
two
that it
other
of homeless
ness in invisibility and silence. I began to talkwith thewomen and men in the shelters. They talked about the fact that they felt invisible. Often they asked for
money because to on the streets, sought their garbage same time, a they public presence, can or a told me, not only of because their they needed They but they it but wanted were also people over recognition through lamppost to study is humanity. a hello,
they
acknowledge as a the
a smile, ignored.
looked, At
I started
the Cupola,
which
had
burned
five
times
in its history. Each time the city decided to rebuild this national monument. After the fifth fire, the Parliament decided tomove to another building. So the Cupola
stood abandoned. In a moment of lucidity, I connected the fires in the Cupola
with
I thought: Why don't we put the fire back in the Cupola to call attention to the fifteen thousand homeless in a city the situation of the homeless
as Montr?al?
inMontr?al.
we
as prosperous
Why
don't
"burn"
it again
so
that people
can
see
that as people
trigger a hundred
to eat or
in
I submitted my proposal to the people at the shelters. They appreciated that Iwas not exposing them through photography. They liked and approved my
idea. These red lights connected to the shelters were my way of sending a distress
signal to the city?of making the homeless visible without pointing at them directly. Of course, the red lights also recalled the fires that consumed the build Iwas trying to suggest another kind of fire, ing many times, but metaphorically,
one that immolates and consumes society itself. This project was part of a pho
tography biennial,
was, issue become us and in fact, a of homelessness a permanent get connected,
portrait
shelters cancelled
the mayor
all of my
projects, it failed.We did not give the homeless a home. We did not resolve their problem. We gave them a brief, hopeful moment when they regained their
humanity, when their when the press status people also started acknowledging to the dialogue, these projects regarding you their but presence, eventually so smiled they . .. little at them, returned to contributed With
as homeless. are
change reception,
Phillips: in public
There art.
so many
vagaries
perception,
and
control
It is a very
fraught
process.
22
FALL 200?
Alfredo
Jaar: Absolutely. As an artist and architect, Imeticulously design each detail, but lose control because it is in the public realm. It is difficult to predict what a you project may provoke. One night, I observed a group of drunken men waiting half an hour for the red lights to appear. Itwas an uncharacteristically quiet night, but suddenly the red lights brightened and then disappeared. The men began to cheer. Iwas saddened and frustrated that they applauded the lights, but
did not acknowledge what they represented. Iwas very frustrated. You lose con
your work
some seems connection to be
theatricality
theatricality
24
FALL 200?
of paper in an industrial
drove the
that essentially
economy of the town. But Skoghall is bereft of culture, and for amoment
gave tion, of them and a kunsthalle. You then had the well built the paper set on museum, fire. The organized timing, a one-day and structure
you
exhibi duration
temporality, character.
this project?as
as its denouement?had
a theatrical
Jaar: In the case of Skoghall, Iwas shocked to discover that a community could exist for thirty years without any visible cultural or exhibition space. How do you
represent the absence of this space for culture in an entire community? I found it
25
art journal
that visual
art can
provide?to
question,
to
speculate,
and
to search.
It blew
my
mind.
space of what pearing"
to deal with
then burned it can do I hoped
spectacular
Yes,
I am and
the work. of
In this
the
respond
to the needs
the piece as I am
theatricality
sure
theatrical. a fine
is either excess
too much and and can seem assure lack that of constraint. spectacle. richly more you
information sensations
you
resonate.
observer, for
project town, of I am
the citizens
spectacle spectacle
the visual
cultural
lack physical
a year
later, when
Skoghall nomi
The after-effect funds of to to seek
kunsthalle
community.
Phillips:
of you do of not
I think
but sense you
It is such
topics
resolve
in the work
in such
challenging
circumstances?
be understandable
if you
Studs
discouraged.
ninety-three-year-old
Terkel wrote
retained an
a testimonial
incredible sense
and work
Jaar:
I don't
ing of Gramsci, towhom I recently dedicated a trilogy of projects in Italy.He wrote about the pessimism of the intellect and the optimism of the will. I still
believe lives. in the capacity It is only through of culture, like Gramsci productions, did, actions, to make and a difference programs in our that we can cultural
improve our lives and the lives of people around us. I am very critical of the role of politics and disillusioned by the role of most of themedia, which is in the hands of a few corporations that have transformed it into a business like any
other. only I still believe, space left because we have no choice, we place can where that the world and of culture new is the ways seen in the world the world?the today where only suggest
speculate we
of understanding
can dream.
I have
enough
we have
to be a pessimist,
no choice. Hope
and I am a depressing
or nothing.
26
FALL 2005
Phillips: This is a good way to end, but letme present this brief coda.What do you think of the artist interview, this frequently used genre of "artwriting"? Can the interview be a fruitful and effective form of critical exchange? The interview
has an become interview a ubiquitous form. Every museum proliferate publication in art has magazines critical and essays and with the artist. Interviews journals.
examined
in
interviewee. history
twenty-five
relationship.
have
followed my work for such a long time. Only when there is this deep knowledge shared by the participants, perhaps some illuminating truth can be shared with
the more reader. When of a play there between isn't this trust and the shared knowledge, seeks to then it becomes her or his actors, where interviewer
display
knowledge
image given
and the respondent also plays the game of presenting her or his best
of poor enable a circumstances. truly shared and I enjoy honest reading exchange. interviews when the
Alfredo Jaar is an artist, architect, and filmmaker who lives and works inNew York. His work has been shown extensively around the world. He was named a MacArthur Fellow in the year 2000. He currently inMinneapolis. holds theWinton Chair in Liberal Arts at the University of Minnesota Patricia C. Phillips is the editor-in-chief York, New Paltz. of Art Journal. She is a professor at the State University of New
27
art journal