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An interview for an American Pagan magazine in 2001 Although this is an old interview, I think it has some still relevant

points in regards to inner work. I no longer work with the concept of the inner convocation and the four temples, but it can be an interesting path for others to follow in their own way.

"Inner Convocation, The School of Visionary Magic"; that is the name of your website and what you teach. It has a rather modern "ring" to it when compared with, say, "Craft of the Wise" or "Old Ways", and yet this path is very ancient, isn't it? Can you tell us a bit about it as an introduction?

I use the title Inner Convocation, because that is what it isit is a place of consciousness in the inner realms where people, mediators of all worlds, times and traditions come together. There are many versions of it around the world and it is not a new concept. It is a communal gathering place for consciousness that comes together around a flame: the fire of Divinity at the edge of the void. It is also a place where working unconditionally is a must. If you do anything for a reason, you create a polarity, a good and bad, and therefore you have to take responsibility for your creation. It is something that has come purely from you and is now let loose on the world. So if , for example, you go into the IC and into a temple to work with the inner contacts to create world peace, you will have to bear the responsibility of everything that comes from that. It may not be a time for peace. We as humans have no concept of the long term implications of power. To work unconditionally is to go into the IC and the temples, and open a doorway for what ever is necessary to come through for a situation. That way, you are using the unique ability of humans to mediate power from one world to another without interfering in the natural order of what is needful. I did not use something like old ways because visionary work is timeless. Time is not an ultimate truth, nor is it linear, that idea is bound merely by the physical substance and gravity. So the idea of old and new, before and after, fall away where there is no substance to hang that concept on. In Wicca, and most pagan traditions, there are physical rituals, use of objects, use of nature etc, and such methods of working are therefore bound by time. So of course it would make sense to talk of something as an old way if it comes from a time past. But visionary work does not use substance and is therefore not bound by time. It all makes sense after a few pints of Guinness.

2. Journeying via the Inner Flame to the Convocation is similar and, yet, very different (in my mind) from what most Pagans "do" in spiritual journeying, (or perhaps I should say it's very different from what one usually finds these days in the mainstream books and workshops). How difficult is it to visit the Convocation without a trained guide, Priest, or Priestess? Would you consider it perhaps even dangerous to do so?

I think the difficulty most people would find when they try to access the inner convocation for the first time without a guide would be inner self disciple. It is certainly not dangerous, just difficult. The inner convocation is a place where everything comes together out of time, therefore you can access virtually anywhere via the convocation. Ultimately you access yourself and that is where the inner focus really needs to come in. It is easy to become swept away by the power of this place because of its simplicity. There is no dressing up, no egos, no pretensions, no hierarchies, because all of these things are directly related to substance and life. Being a high priestess 5degrees to the left will cut no ice in this place. You eventually meet yourself without your worldly dressing, and that can be very shocking. It is a place where you access the inner powers of the elements before they exteriorize. It is the threshold of being. Because there are no grand visuals in the vision, it is easy to dismiss it. And yet, to me, it is the most powerful place humans can access. Inner focus helps you to build the pathway to this place and inner discipline teaches you how to use this place responsibly. If someone is trying to build a relationship with this place without help, I would suggest accessing it daily and allowing the vision to build slowly over the weeks. Then the practitioner should start to explore the four thresholds of the directions, where the inner elements manifest into the outside worlds. This is also known as the 4 inner temples.

3. Visions are an integral part of your work; you share them in your workshops, your novels, as do your students and peers of this path. Are all of these visions meaningful to this modern time? To this lifetime? Are they snippets of things "past", as if picking up a book and reading it, or are they intentional and poignant, otherwise, no vision would be granted?

I feel that visions are very meaningful for this time, particularly in our culture of externalization. All our imagination is out there as in TV, video, film, computer etc. There is little internalization of the imagination. We are also living in an age where the imagination is seen as something trivial. The imagination is our most precious tool. It is a mode of transportation; it is our most powerful access to the inner worlds. The early Christian fathers knew this and therefore steered people away from it. Some of the visions I use are old traditional visions, but when they are used they are timeless. I feel, in this time of change, that visions are a vital tool for all spiritual/mystical practitioners regardless of their tradition. And of course, many traditions and religions have many powerful mystical visions.

4. I'm going to put you on the spot here :) In your novel, Azal, A Retelling of Eve, one of the characters, (a later incarnation of Azal, I believe), makes the statement that women are more powerful in energy work and more capable of channeling energy. Do you personally believe this and/or is this in relation to Goddess energy only?

I think (nooodon`t beat meeee) that the abilities of men and women are very different in some respects. I dont think that women are more powerful, just different. When it comes to the use of inner energy and its manipulation, it is easier for women. Also the power to hold and find visions is easier for women. This is nothing to do with sexuality, or the inner person. It is purely how the physical body filters power. We are designed to carry being into substance from un-being. We are also designed to accommodate larger amounts of power (holding two beings in one space during pregnancy for example). Women have a higher power to create and destroy, to curse and bless, and their capacity to work in a more formless way is better than men. They also have a higher tolerance for attack. (an inner version of a higher pain threshold) Men have more ability to form patterns, which is crucial in magic (hence more powerful male magicians than females) and to hold power within patterns. They are better at working with polarized power rather than formless power. They are sustainers rather than creators or destroyers. This is mirrored in the powers of the Deities. Of course, within this there are always the awkward ones who do not fit the norm. that is what makes life interesting. Men are also useless at finding things, such as clean socks and the salt container that is right in front of them. I think our challenge of this age is to move beyond the polarities, move away from being bound by substance. That does not mean withdraw. Rather it is to learn to use substance rather than being ruled by it. In this time of change we can choose to either be bound, anchored and ruled by polarity, or we can choose to move beyond the restrictions by stepping sideways. out of substance and therefore neutral. So then you are back to visions, and working unconditionally.

5. Your work and research into the Ancient practice of "Sleepers" fascinates me, and, in fact, has prompted me into doing some research and future essays on some Arthurian "Sleepers". Tell us a little bit about what a Sleeper is/was, and, do you see this returning as a Pagan funeral rite, perhaps?

There are a variety of sleepers who are sleeping for different reasons. One type is a sleeper who, after a ritual death (volunteer, often born into a specific line) stays in the land to act as an intermediary between the land/deity/spirits. A shaman or priest/priestess often interprets the communications of the sleeper for the tribe. The sleeper has a certain time limit of service after which they are released though the death cycle. Another type of sleeper is one who upholds the land and the health of the land. Again it is a ritual death and they act as a fulcrum for the land power, keeping it in balance. As the time for release nears, another sleeper is chosen and the old one is released. A third type of sleeper is one who dreams the land for the tribe. While they sleep and dream, the tribe/civilization/land stays in existence. If they awake and another dreamer does not take their

place, then the dream dissolves and the reality dissipates.

Our problem today is that many sleepers are being awoken by archeologists, who dig them up. But no one is replacing them. So who is dreaming existence for us? As for this method returning? Im not sure. We do not need sleepers acting as go- betweens for us any more as our consciousness has loosened to a point where we can commune with deities ourselves through visions, dreams and rituals. But we still need dreamers and guardians of the land. But the knowledge of how to bind a soul to the land is virtually gone. I think we have to learn to look forward and see what we need to do in this time of change. For me, I see it as a time for service to the land rather than the tribe. I feel that our time is all but gone in a planetary sense (which is a long time off in human terms) but that as mediators it is our job to do the bidding of the Goddess. What I have found is that it is important to take species of the forests, their inner patterns, into the future. Taking one inner being of a plant or tree and sleeping through time with it deep within the earth. This can be done in visions. And then when the time comes, you emerge out of the depths to replant the inner pattern of that being so that the outer pattern can manifest. So you are sleeping for the planet and the Goddess, rather than for ourselves as a species.

That is happening already in an externalized form by scientists who are preparing seed banks of extinct or endangered plants. They carry the external potential through time; we carry the inner potential through time. Because to exist, they need both. There is a vision called carrying the forest through time, which shows you how to do this.

6. Your workshop visions are, to say the least, challenging and, at times, can be intimidating. Yet, they also MOVE and put things into motion. Powerful, I think, is an understatement :) Is this something that the Convocation Priests and Priestesses are wanting you/us to do? Is this part of the shifting consciousness of Earth/Gaia and Her children as they re-awaken? Basicallyyes! It is also a part of the awakening of the role we have to play during our time..sleeping for the Goddess and being a mediator unconditionally. It is a time of awakening the imagination and moving beyond the selfish drive to propagate and consume.

7. I know that work with the Dark Goddess(es) is very important to you as well. The Lady, for all these years of Christian dominance, has spoken (on a large scale) to the world as Mary and/or the Madonna figure. Now, though, through your work and the work of others, it seems that She wants to also be seen (again) as the "shaker and mover", something to be feared, oathed, and loved. Is this part of what you see as well?

Again, yes, this is a time of re awakening, destruction and cleaning the face of the earth. That is what the second novel is about.

8. You have a second novel coming out at any time, tell us a little about that, if you will.

The Thirteenth Manifestation is about the re emergence of the Dark Goddess as she manifests through a young girl. It is about the time of destruction and cleansing, how humanity has exteriorized so far out of the void that it has almost lost its sense of Divinity within. At that time, it was prophesized that a woman, a beloved of Kali, would emerge to bring about the cleansing. It is set in modern day English gypsy communities, in Pakistan and in India. It shows how the power of the Goddess manifests and how female power emerges from the ashes of destruction ( and how female power brings through destruction).

9. Finally, if you were able to leave something, (writings, object, etc) in a cave to be found later by future generations, what would you leave and why? A piece of paper with Dont Bother written on it. This was the greatest wisdom I was ever given. People bother too muchthey get too involved and tied up in little knots and patterns without ever stepping back. I think that the more you learn about power, magic and deities, the more you learn when not to act.

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