May 07, 2008

Top of Form 1
Date: 05/07/2008
Session: Regular
1851
1 NEW YORK STATE SENATE
4 THE STENOGRAPHIC RECORD
9 ALBANY, NEW YORK
10 May 7, 2008
11 11:12 a.m.
12
13
14 REGULAR SESSION
15
16
17
18 SENATOR THOMAS P. MORAHAN, Acting President
19 STEVEN M. BOGGESS, Secretary
20
21
22
23
24
25
Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: The
3 Senate will come to order.
4 I ask for everyone present to
5 please rise and repeat with me the Pledge of
6 Allegiance.
7 (Whereupon, the assemblage recited
8 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)
9 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: In the
10 absence of clergy, I ask all of us to bow our
11 heads for a moment of silence.
12 (Whereupon, the assemblage
13 respected a moment of silence.)
14 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN:
15 Reading of the Journal.
16 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
17 Tuesday, May 6, the Senate met pursuant to
18 adjournment. The Journal of Monday, May 5,
19 was read and approved. On motion, Senate
20 adjourned.
22 Without objection, the Journal stands approved
23 as read.
24 Presentation of petitions.
25 Messages from the Assembly.

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1 Messages from the Governor.
2 Reports of standing committees.
3 Reports of select committees.
4 Communications and reports from
5 state officers.
6 Motions and resolutions.
7 Senator Bonacic.
8 SENATOR BONACIC: Thank you,
9 Mr. President.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: You're
11 welcome, Senator.
12 SENATOR BONACIC: On behalf of
13 Senator O. Johnson, on page number 49 I offer
14 the following amendments to Calendar Number
15 770, Senate Print Number 7171A, and I ask that
16 the bill retain its place on the Third Reading
17 Calendar.
19 amendments are received and adopted, and the
20 bill will retain its place on the Third
21 Reading Calendar.
22 SENATOR BONACIC: Thank you,
23 Mr. President.
24 I move, on behalf of Senator
25 Marcellino, that the following bill on the

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1 order of first report be committed to the

2 Committee on Rules: Senate Number 4363,
3 Calendar Number 1013.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: So
5 ordered.
6 SENATOR BONACIC: Good job,
7 Mr. President. Thank you.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: Thank
9 you, Senator Bonacic.
10 Senator Skelos.
11 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
12 there will be an immediate meeting of the
13 Rules Committee in the Majority Conference
14 Room.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: There
16 will be an immediate meeting of the Rules
17 Committee in the Majority Conference Room.
18 The Senate will stand at ease.
19 (Whereupon, the Senate stood at
20 ease at 11:14 a.m.)
21 (Whereupon, the Senate reconvened
22 at 11:21 a.m.)
24 Senate will come to order.
25 Senator Skelos.

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1 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you,
2 Mr. President.
3 If we could go to the
4 noncontroversial reading of the calendar.

6 Secretary will read.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 271, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print 602A,
9 an act to amend the Navigation Law, in
10 relation to providing.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: Read
12 the last section.
13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
14 act shall take effect immediately.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: Call
16 the roll.
17 (The Secretary called the roll.)
19 Announce the results.
20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 56.
22 bill is passed.
24 585, by Senator Little, Senate Print 6715, an
25 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to

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1 adding.
3 the last section.
7 the roll.
13 bill is passed.
15 786, by Senator Flanagan, Senate Print 7155,
16 an act to amend the Parks, Recreation and
17 Historic Preservation Law, in relation to
18 establishing.
24 the roll.

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5 bill is passed.
7 840, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Print
8 6845, an act to amend the Penal Law, in
9 relation to the crime of making a terroristic
10 threat.
14 act shall take effect on the first of
15 November.
17 the roll.
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 56. Nays,
22 1. Senator Duane recorded in the negative.
24 bill is passed.

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1 859, by Senator Fuschillo, Senate Print 7261,
2 an act to amend the Highway Law, in relation
3 to designating a portion of the state highway
4 system.
6 the last section.
8 act shall take effect on the 30th day.
10 the roll.

16 bill is passed.
18 870, by Senator Bonacic, Senate Print 7203, an
19 act to amend Chapter 262 of the Laws of 2002
20 amending the Environmental Conservation Law.

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1 the roll.
7 bill is passed.
9 873, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print 7525,
10 an act to amend the Environmental Conservation
11 Law and the State Finance Law, in relation to
12 collection.

18 the roll.
24 bill is passed.

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1 900, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 252, an
3 creating and authorizing.
5 the last section.
9 the roll.
15 bill is passed.
17 905, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 1653, an
19 instructional video on sexually predators.

25 the roll.

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6 bill is passed.
8 907, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 1991, an
9 act relating to authorizing and directing the
10 Commissioner of General Services.
16 the roll.
22 bill is passed.
24 908, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 2456, an

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1 establishing.
3 the last section.
7 the roll.
13 bill is passed.
15 910, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 4556, an
17 electronic equivalents.
23 the roll.

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4 bill is passed.
6 928, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 3922, an
7 act to amend the Education Law, in relation to
8 disclosure of gifts.
12 act shall take effect on the first of August.
14 the roll.
20 bill is passed.
21 Senator Skelos, that completes the
22 noncontroversial reading of the calendar.
24 if we could return to reports of standing
25 committees for the report of the Rules

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1 Committee.
3 Secretary will read the report of the Rules
4 Committee.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno,
6 from the Committee on Rules, reports the
7 following bills:
8 Restored, Senate Print 4363, by
9 Senator Marcellino, an act to amend the Public
10 Authorities Law;
11 Reported, Senate Print 3947B, by
12 Senator Skelos, an act to amend the Tax Law;
13 6160B, by Senator Skelos, an act to
14 amend the Tax Law;
15 7594B, by Senator Lanza, an act to
16 amend the Tax Law and the General Business
17 Law;
18 And Senate Print 7932, by Senator
19 Maziarz, an act to amend the Tax Law.
20 All bills reported direct to third
21 reading.
23 Senator Skelos.
24 SENATOR SKELOS: Move to accept
25 the report of the Rules Committee.

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1 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: On the
2 motion to accept the report of the Rules
3 Committee, all in favor say aye.
4 (Response of "Aye.")
6 Opposed, nay.
7 (No response.)
9 report is accepted.
11 Mr. President. If we could take up the third
12 reading of the Rules report.
16 1013, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print
17 4363, an act to amend the Public Authorities
18 Law, in relation to providing.
24 the roll.

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2 Senator Marcellino, to explain his vote.
3 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you,
4 Mr. President.
5 This is an opportunity to basically
6 say that the state stands behind its message
7 that we want our motorists to conserve and not

8 use fossil fuels whenever possible. The
9 purchase of high-mileage vehicles is to be
10 encouraged.
11 This bill encourages that by
12 providing a discount for vehicles that qualify
13 on the Thruway and on the E-Z Pass tolls.
14 This is an important piece of
15 legislation because it incentivizes the public
16 to go forward and purchase these vehicles and
17 drive in a "green" manner, and that is to
18 protect and preserve our natural resources and
19 to protect and preserve our environment.
20 Thank you, Mr. President. I will
21 vote aye on this important bill.
23 Senator Marcellino will be recorded in the
24 affirmative.

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1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 58. Nays,
2 0.
4 bill is passed.
6 1084, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 3947B,
7 an act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to
8 exempting.

12 act shall take effect October 1, 2008.
14 the roll.
20 bill is passed.
22 1085, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 6160B,
24 providing tax credits.

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1 the last section.
5 the roll.
11 bill is passed.
13 1086, by Senator Lanza, Senate Print 7594B --

14 SENATOR DUANE: Lay it aside,
15 please.
17 bill is laid aside.
19 1087, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 7932,
21 biofuel production.

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2 the roll.
8 bill is passed.
9 Senator Skelos, that completes the
10 noncontroversial reading of the Rules
11 calendar.
13 Mr. President.
14 If we could now ring the bells and
15 inform the members that we're going to the
16 controversial calendar. And within a minute,

17 we'll take up Calendar Number 1086.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: So
19 ordered. We will ring the bells to allow the
20 Senators to return to the chamber, and we will
21 resume in a moment or two.
23 if we could now take up Calendar Number 1086.

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2 1086, by Senator Lanza, Senate Print 7594B, an
3 act to amend the Tax Law and the General
4 Business Law.
6 Senator Duane.
7 SENATOR DUANE: Thank you,
8 Mr. President.
9 If the sponsor would yield, please.
11 Senator Lanza, will you yield?
12 SENATOR LANZA: Yes,
13 Mr. President.
15 Senator yields.
17 Mr. President.
18 When is the -- when will this tax
19 policy take effect?

20 SENATOR LANZA: Mr. President,
21 through you, this bill provides for the
22 suspension of taxes on gasoline and similar
23 motor fuels between the Memorial Day and Labor
24 Day of 2008.
25 SENATOR DUANE: Through you,

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1 Mr. President, if the sponsor would continue
2 to yield.
4 Senator Lanza, will you continue to yield?
5 SENATOR LANZA: Yes --
6 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: Can we
7 have a little quiet in the chamber, please.
9 Mr. President.
11 Senator yields.
12 SENATOR DUANE: Thank you.
13 Has this gasoline tax policy been
14 tried in the past?
16 through you --
17 SENATOR DUANE: In our state?
18 SENATOR LANZA: -- I believe the
19 answer to that is no, except with the
20 exception of legislation that was passed in
21 2006 implementing a cap on the gasoline tax at
22 $2 per gallon.
24 Mr. President. If the sponsor would continue
25 to yield.

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3 SENATOR LANZA: Yes.
5 Senator yields.
6 SENATOR DUANE: Has this tax
7 policy been used in any other states? And if
8 so, which ones?
10 through you, I don't believe it has.
12 Mr. President.
13 SENATOR LANZA: But I would add,
14 Mr. President, that there are many states
15 across the nation that have significantly
16 less -- impose significantly less state tax on
17 a gallon of gasoline.
18 SENATOR DUANE: I'm sorry,
19 Mr. President, I didn't catch that.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: Can't
21 hear you, Senator.
22 SENATOR LANZA: I said there are
23 many states, even neighboring states to
24 New York, which impose significantly less gas
25 tax on a gallon of gasoline.

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2 Mr. President. If the sponsor would continue
3 to yield.
6 SENATOR LANZA: Yes, I will.
8 Senator yields.
9 SENATOR DUANE: What are the
10 environmental -- anticipated environmental
11 results that are anticipated as a result of
12 this -- should this legislation pass both
13 house and be signed into law?
14 SENATOR LANZA: Mr. President, I
15 guess what's being implied by the question, I
16 know that there are certain so-called
17 environmentalists that believe the price of
18 gasoline should cost more than it does today,
19 that it should cost $8 or $10 or $20 a gallon,
20 so that regular people across the state would
21 find it harder to get into their car to drive
22 to market, to drive to school, to go to work.
23 But this is a bill that would save
24 the taxpayers of this state money. It would
25 deliver much-needed relief to people who are

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1 really hurting, finding it harder to make ends

2 meet because of the high price of gasoline.
5 to yield.
10 Senator continues to yield.
11 SENATOR DUANE: I believe there
12 will be more discussion later on about what
13 the savings may or may not be to consumers.
14 But I'm interested in what the
15 sponsor's thoughts are, not the thoughts of
16 what has been characterized as so-called
17 environmentalists -- though I'm not sure
18 exactly who the so-called environmentalists
19 are.
20 But I'm curious as to what the
21 sponsor believes the environmental impact may
22 or may not be. Maybe there are none; maybe
23 there are some. But that's the question I was
24 trying to get an answer to, Mr. President.

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1 Senator Lanza.
3 again, this is a bill that seeks to deliver
4 relief to people who are hurting across the

5 state, who are finding it harder to make ends
6 meet.
7 As we know, the pain of higher gas
8 prices does not end at the pump. Every day
9 goods and services are more expensive, from
10 the price of milk to eggs to bread. This is
11 really hurting the people, hurting families,
12 hurting business. So the idea here is to give
13 relief to people who need that relief.
16 to yield.
21 Senator yields.
22 SENATOR DUANE: When the hearings
23 occurred on this bill, did any of the
24 environmentalists, the called
25 environmentalists or the so-called

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1 environmentalists, did they have an opinion on
2 the effect this legislation would have?
4 am aware of the fact that there are many
5 people and groups who call themselves
6 environmentalists who have expressed
7 opposition to this bill, who have been quite

8 honest about their reason for opposing it and
9 saying that they believe the cost of gasoline
10 in this state should be higher than it is
11 today. They believe that if the cost of
12 gasoline were $5 a gallon or $10 a gallon or,
13 in their wildest hopes, $20 a gallon, that it
14 would encourage people to stay home and not go
15 about their lives.
16 And so I understand the opposition
17 that comes from certain environmental groups.
18 But this is a bill that is much needed.
19 When gasoline approached $2 a
20 gallon a couple of years ago, the Legislature
21 in this state believed that it was a serious
22 enough problem for the people of this state
23 that a gas-tax cap was imposed. And so I'm
24 just going to have to disagree with those
25 people or those groups who believe that

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1 gasoline should cost more and not less. I
2 believe that it should cost less.
3 I believe we have a responsibility
4 to deliver relief to the people of the State
5 of New York. And that's what this measure
6 will do.
7 SENATOR DUANE: And so,
8 Mr. President -- I'll just ask a more
9 simplified question -- was there a hearing or
10 were there hearings on this bill?

14 Mr. President.
15 And, through you, the answer is no,
16 there was not.
19 to yield.
24 Senator yields.

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1 Mr. President.
2 Was there a fiscal study done on
3 this? And if so, who conducted it?
4 SENATOR LANZA: I'm sorry, I
5 didn't hear the last part of the question.
6 SENATOR DUANE: I was asking if
7 there was a fiscal study done on the -- a
8 fiscal impact study done on this legislation.
9 And, if so, who conducted it?
11 through you, yes. And it was done by the
12 Senate Finance Committee.
13 SENATOR DUANE: I'm sorry,

14 Mr. President, I missed that. Senate Finance
15 Committee?
17 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: Senate
18 Finance.
19 SENATOR LANZA: Senate Finance.
20 SENATOR DUANE: So through you,
21 Mr. President, do we -- can we see that fiscal
22 study?
23 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: Are
24 you asking the Senator to yield?
25 SENATOR DUANE: Yes,

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1 Mr. President.
4 SENATOR LANZA: Yes, I will,
5 Mr. President.
7 Senator yields.
8 SENATOR DUANE: And while we're
9 checking for the answer, I just want to --
10 sharing is always nice.
11 SENATOR LANZA: Yeah, there is a
12 fiscal impact attached to the bill,
13 Mr. President. It reports a static figure of
14 approximately $600 million.
15 But of course, as we know in this
16 body, that the economy is far more complicated

17 than taking the number of gallons of gasoline
18 that we expect to be sold during this period
19 and multiplying it by 32 cents and coming up
20 with a number. That's how we arrived at that
21 fiscal impact.
22 That states the worst-case
23 scenario. Of course, we know that this will
24 have an economic stimulus to the economy here
25 in the State of New York. And so nobody knows

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1 really what that number is.
2 I could tell you -- I could tell
3 you that because of the fact that gas costs
4 less, for instance, in the State of New Jersey
5 because they impose lower taxes on a gallon of
6 gas, that many people in the State of
7 New York, many businesses in the State of
8 New York go across the border to avail
9 themselves of those lower prices. And while
10 they're there, they contribute to that
11 economy, whether shopping or dining.
12 And so we know, when you consider
13 factors like potentially increased tourism
14 here in the state, the fact that neighboring
15 states, residents thereof, would come here to
16 New York to avail themselves of the lower gas
17 price, that there would be an economic
18 stimulus to our state.
19 And so I don't think anyone in this

20 room could accurately tell you the precise
21 impact on our economy.
24 to yield.

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3 Mr. President.
5 Senator yields.
6 SENATOR DUANE: I don't have, and
7 I'm not sure anyone over on this side of the
8 aisle has the actual study that we could look
9 at the -- you know, the methodology.
10 I'm wondering about the actual
11 document, whether or not that could be shared
12 with everybody in the chamber, all the
13 members.
15 through you, it's pretty simple. I can give
16 you the methodology with respect to that
17 number. And there was an analysis and an
18 assessment of the number of gallons of
19 gasoline that are expected to be consumed or
20 sold in the state during this period of time,
21 and simply multiplying that number by 32 cents
22 per gallon to arrive at that number.

24 Mr. President, I'm becoming less optimistic
25 I'm actually going to get a copy of the study.

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1 So then who's -- who -- what
2 academic person or what economist was behind
3 the methodology for this study? Because I
4 don't have the study so I could look at the
5 footnotes on whose data, where they found it.
6 So I'm just trying to get at where these
7 numbers are coming from.
9 Senator Lanza.
10 SENATOR LANZA: Again,
11 Mr. President, as far as, you know, the math
12 here, it's pretty simple.
13 SENATOR DUANE: I'm not -- I
14 don't -- through you --
15 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: Excuse
16 me, Senator. Let him continue with his
17 answer. If you have a further question --
18 SENATOR DUANE: It's not the
19 math.
20 SENATOR LANZA: I'm not sure to
21 which higher academic authority Senator Duane
22 would like to hear from. From which. But
23 it's pretty simple. It's pretty simple math.
24 This number is arrived at by taking
25 the number of gallons of gasoline that we

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1 expect to sell in the State of New York during
2 this period of time and simply multiplying
3 that number by 32 cents per gallon and
4 arriving at this result.
5 Again, that is the worst-case
6 scenario. I don't believe that it will be
7 anywhere near that number, because anyone who
8 understands anything about the economy
9 understands that it's far more complicated
10 than that and that there will -- certainly
11 this will provide a stimulus to our economy
12 which will offset that simple,
13 simply-arrived-at mathematical number.
16 to yield.
21 Senator yields.
22 SENATOR DUANE: It sounds as if
23 we're talking about just a one-page study. Is
24 that correct?

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1 don't know where we're going with the study.

2 If anyone has any difficulty in
3 understanding how we arrived at this number
4 beyond the explanation I've given, which is
5 pretty simple, eighth-grade math, we can
6 certainly talk about it at a later date. But
7 I think we've gone over this issue with
8 respect to this question sufficiently.
9 It's pretty simple for everyone in
10 this chamber to understand how to arrive at
11 that number -- which, again, ignores the
12 economic reality and the stimulus that this
13 bill will certainly provide, as evidenced by
14 what's going on in other states who provide --
15 who impose a lower tax on a gallon of gas for
16 the residents of their state.
17 We know that, just for instance,
18 people in this state go across state lines to
19 avail themselves of that lower price. And
20 while they're there, they shop and dine and
21 provide stimulus to those economies, which
22 certainly offset the cost of the lower tax
23 being imposed.

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1 to yield.

6 Senator yields for another question.
8 Mr. President.
9 I'm wondering if the sponsor thinks
10 there's any downside to sharing the study with
11 everyone.
13 through you. Whatever analysis there is and
14 we have, I believe there's no downside in
15 sharing that.
16 SENATOR DUANE: And then through
17 you, Mr. President, if we could have that
18 study put on our desks. Because I think we'll
19 have time. People have a lot of questions, of
20 course, about this. So if we could start to
21 just share that with all the members, that
22 would be terrific.
23 Would that be okay with the
24 sponsor?

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1 Senator Lanza.
3 think we should talk about the merits of the
4 bill and not talk about some perceived
5 difficulty in understanding a pretty
6 straightforward analysis of the fiscal impact
7 of this bill.
8 I've repeated a number of times
9 here this bill seeks to eliminate the 32-cent
10 tax that we impose on a gallon of gasoline in
11 the State of New York, which makes gasoline in
12 the State of New York just about the most
13 expensive gasoline in the United States of
14 America. And it's hurting families, it's
15 making it more difficult for them to make ends
16 meet. It's driving up the costs of just about
17 everything, from bread to milk to eggs.
18 And if you want to know -- and I'll
19 say it all day long, if you want -- the fiscal
20 impact that we have here is derived very
21 simply. Very simply. I think everyone in
22 this chamber can understand that when you're
23 going to take 32 cents off the price of
24 gasoline and you calculate the number of
25 gallons of gasoline that we expect to sell and

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1 you multiply that number by the 32-cent
2 savings which we are trying to deliver to the
3 people of this state, that you come up with a
4 number.
5 That number, Senator Duane, is in
6 the neighborhood of $600 million. That again
7 is the worst-case scenario, because it ignores
8 all the economic stimulus that this bill will
9 provide to the State of New York.

11 you, Senator Lanza, for fully explaining and
12 exploring the depth of the study about the
13 financial impact.
14 (Laughter.)
16 Senator Duane.
18 Mr. President, in the interests for this
19 question of just getting a brief response, I'm
20 assuming that the sponsor's answer to my
21 question was no.
23 Senator Lanza.
24 SENATOR LANZA: Yes, Mr.
25 President.

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1 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: Yes,
2 it is a no.
3 SENATOR LANZA: Senator Duane
4 knows me well know enough to know that that
5 was the answer.
6 SENATOR DUANE: So in this case
7 "yes" is a no, we're not getting the study.
8 SENATOR LANZA: Well,
9 Mr. President, I think that was a question,
10 through you.
11 I have explained --
12 SENATOR DUANE: Mr. President, I
13 think I have the floor.

15 me. Senator Lanza, we'll let Senator Duane --
16 SENATOR LANZA: I thought I heard
17 a question, I'm sorry.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: We'll
19 let Senator Duane finish his question or
20 statement.
21 SENATOR DUANE: I just have one
22 economic question.
23 I'm just wondering if the sponsor
24 is familiar with price --

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3 Mr. President.
5 Senator Duane, your question?
6 SENATOR DUANE: If the sponsor is
7 familiar with the concept of price elasticity,
8 and if that has been factored into the
9 analysis which we don't have.
11 that theory exists. Whether or not we reduce
12 the price of gasoline in this state or not by
13 taking and removing the tax, and so that all
14 else being equal, if you take or remove the
15 32-cent-per-gallon tax, the price of gasoline,
16 according to market conditions, would go down.

17 Similar arguments were made a
18 couple of years ago when the cap was placed on
19 a gallon of gasoline at $2 a gallon. And we
20 see that as a result of that cap, the people
21 of the State of New York are paying less than
22 they would otherwise be paying if we had not
23 instituted and imposed that cap.
25 Mr. President, if the sponsor could continue

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1 to yield.
6 Senator yields.
7 SENATOR DUANE: Was the State
8 Comptroller consulted on the fiscal impacts of
9 this bill?
10 SENATOR LANZA: I apologize. Can
11 you repeat the question?
12 SENATOR DUANE: Certainly.
13 Mr. President, I was wondering if
14 the State Comptroller had been consulted on
15 this legislation to have an opinion on the
16 fiscal impacts.
17 SENATOR LANZA: I don't know,
18 Mr. President.
19 SENATOR DUANE: And finally, my

20 last question, Mr. President, is when was this
21 legislation introduced?
23 Senator Lanza, you will continue to yield?
25 Mr. President.

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1 It was -- I don't know precisely
2 when it was introduced. It was announced a
3 couple of weeks ago. I'll get the precise
4 date. April 16th, Mr. President.
5 SENATOR DUANE: And I meant to
6 make this a two-pronger. And when was this
7 last amended -- I'm wondering if this, through
8 you, Mr. President --
11 SENATOR DUANE: When was the bill
12 last amended?
14 Senator Lanza.
15 SENATOR LANZA: I don't have the
16 answer to that question, Mr. President. I
17 believe it was sometime last week.
18 SENATOR DUANE: On the bill,
19 Mr. President.
21 Senator Duane, on the bill.
22 SENATOR DUANE: I'm going to be

23 very interested and curious to listen to my
24 colleagues on both sides of the aisle as they
25 debate this issue.

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1 I am saddened, though, that there
2 isn't an open sharing of information about
3 this legislation. We're in difficult fiscal
4 times in this state. Most New Yorkers are
5 also facing financially extremely difficult
6 times. This legislation may or may not have a
7 large fiscal impact for a number of
8 stakeholders. And so I think that it would be
9 best if we had all relevant information and
10 studies.
11 We have some time until Memorial
12 Day, and I think we could actually gather more
13 information before we made a judgment on this
14 legislation.
15 So, you know, I don't see what the
16 downside would have been to share as much
17 information as is available. But if that's
18 not to be, then perhaps my colleagues and I
19 will be able to get more information through
20 the rest of this debate.
21 And with that, Mr. President, I
22 know that many of my colleagues also have
23 questions. And I thank the sponsor for his
24 indulgence with mine.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: You

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1 were explaining your vote, Senator. What is
2 your vote?
3 SENATOR DUANE: No, I was
4 speaking on the bill, Mr. President.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: Okay.
6 Senator Krueger.
7 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you,
8 Mr. President. If the sponsor would yield,
9 please.
13 Mr. President.
15 Senator yields.
16 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you.
17 My colleague Senator Duane had
18 raised some questions about the fiscal
19 analysis you did. So approximately,
20 regardless of debate about the financial
21 analysis, $600 million lost to the state
22 budget from this proposal. What are we
23 proposing to cut in the state budget that we
24 just passed, since we would have $600 million
25 less revenue?

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1 SENATOR LANZA: Well,

2 Mr. President, I don't believe that that will
3 be the impact of this bill. I think to
4 believe that, you would have to believe that
5 nothing will change as far as people's conduct
6 and activity, that this will not provide a
7 stimulus to the economy.
8 I believe it will. So I don't know
9 what that impact will be, and I don't think
10 anyone in this room knows what the impact will
11 be. But I do know this. I know the impact on
12 family budgets across the state will be
13 positive. When you talk about cost, there
14 will be no cost to the people of New York.
15 There will be a savings, a savings to people
16 who desperately need that savings, perhaps,
17 and need it now.
18 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Mr.
19 President, if through you the sponsor will
20 continue to yield.
24 Mr. President.

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1 Senator yields.
3 Mr. President.
4 I have to disagree. We will lose

5 that money in the state budget. But following
6 up on your point that it will be a savings to
7 the families, I believe in some of the
8 paperwork you talk about it saving
9 approximately $50 per household over the
10 course of the summer holidays.
11 How do we know that will happen?
12 You're reducing the tax, but there's nothing
13 in this bill that mandates that that tax
14 relief actually be provided to the gasoline
15 purchaser. So what evidence is there that the
16 wholesalers and retailers would move that
17 savings to the purchaser at the pumps?
19 first let me say that $50 a week or every
20 other week or every three weeks may not be a
21 lot to Senator Krueger and the people she
22 represents, but it's a lot to the people I
23 represent. And it's a lot to the people
24 across this state who are really hurting, who
25 are finding that the price of everything they

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1 consume because of higher gas prices is going
2 up.
3 And driving, for people in my
4 community -- and for many people across this
5 state -- is not a luxury. It's not a luxury,
6 it's a necessity. We don't have the billions
7 of dollars of mass transit that the people of

8 Manhattan are blessed with. We've got to get
9 in cars to get around, to live, to get our
10 kids to school, to go to market and to shop.
11 And so $50 makes a difference to my family and
12 to the families I represent and to many
13 families across this state.
14 With respect to the second part of
15 the question, there's an anti-gouging measure
16 in this bill, similar to the anti-gouging
17 measure that was put in the bill that put a
18 cap on the tax that we impose at $2 a gallon.
19 So this argument was made then.
20 This argument, we found, did not
21 hold true with the cap that we placed on
22 gasoline tax. It won't hold true here because
23 market conditions won't allow it to happen.
24 And we've got proof again in our neighboring
25 state, which is only a few minutes away from

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1 the community I represent in Staten Island,
2 and that's New Jersey.
3 And the State of New Jersey imposes
4 a lower tax on a gallon of gas than the State
5 of New York does. And guess what?
6 Mysteriously, the price of gasoline in
7 New Jersey costs less than the price of
8 gasoline in New York. That savings has been
9 passed on the consumer because it makes sense
10 to pass it on, because of the competitive

11 nature of business.
12 And so we've got proof right next
13 door that when you lower the gas tax, you
14 lower the price of gas. And that is what the
15 people of the State of New York need, and they
16 need it now.
18 President, if the sponsor would continue to
19 yield.
23 Mr. President.
25 Senator yields.

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2 I'm going to try again, because we didn't get
3 to my question.
4 One, your bill actually proposes
5 what would be conceivably a $50 savings if it
6 was to be passed through over the course of
7 the summer holiday, not one week or two weeks,
8 just for the record.
9 Two, again, what in your bill moves
10 this savings to the consumers at the gas pump?
11 Because you reference -- and thank you for
12 bringing it up -- we did this before, and the
13 data shows nobody saved money. The price of

14 gas has skyrocketed since the cap.
15 The gouging law was a failed model,
16 in that it's only a civil penalty if we
17 declare an emergency, so it has never been
18 used.
19 So again, this bill today, why is
20 this not simply a rollover to the largest gas
21 companies, who are making the largest profits
22 in the history of the gas industry? Why is
23 this bill actually going to not simply allow
24 them to suck up another 32 cents per gallon
25 into their profit margin? Where in this bill

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1 does it say that this must be provided to the
2 consumer at the gas pump?
4 let me begin again by saying I don't know
5 where you get this $50 number. But let's say
6 it is $50. That's a lot of money to people I
7 represent who are trying to make ends meet,
8 who are trying to make hard choices already,
9 raising their families and trying to go about
10 and live out a good, decent life here in the
11 State of New York.
12 Fifty dollars, if we could save
13 people $50, if that's all we could save -- I
14 don't know where that number is coming from.
15 Perhaps people drive more in Staten Island.
16 In fact, they do drive more in Staten Island

17 than they do in Manhattan, because we have to.
18 We have to.
19 So if we could save people $50, we
20 ought to do it, because they're hurting. When
21 gasoline goes up 32 cents a gallon, people
22 hurt. And they feel it. So I somehow -- I
23 don't understand the argument that says if we
24 reduce the price of gasoline by 32 cents a
25 gallon that it really isn't worth it, that it

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1 really isn't something. It is something. It
2 will matter.
3 And if you want to talk about
4 gouging and you want to talk about what the
5 oil companies will do, let's remember one
6 thing. The oil companies, over the last three
7 years, have made about 10 cents a gallon in
8 profit, 10 cents a gallon. Many here believe
9 that they're gouging the people of this
10 country.
11 If the oil companies are gouging
12 the people of this country and this state by
13 making 10 cents a gallon, what are we doing?
14 What are we doing here in New York by charging
15 them 32 cents a gallon?
17 President --
18 SENATOR LANZA: And so that's
19 what this bill is about.

20 And if the Senator from Manhattan
21 seeks to find proof that this will be passed
22 along to the consumer, you need only look to
23 each and every state that imposes a lower tax
24 on a gallon of gasoline and see that in those
25 states, again, gasoline costs less. It costs

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1 less because, of course -- of course -- that
2 savings is passed along to the consumer,
3 because the markets demand that it is.
4 And to say that, well, when we
5 imposed that tax two years ago and that now
6 gasoline is higher, to somehow suggest that
7 that has anything to do with that cap is
8 ridiculous. Gasoline is up all over the
9 country because of many factors we cannot
10 control. Because the price of crude oil,
11 which is about 72 percent of the price of a
12 gallon of gas, in every state is up, from $60
13 a barrel to $122 a barrel this morning.
14 So the proof that this will lower
15 the price of gasoline, the evidence that this
16 will lower the price of gasoline for the
17 people of New York is all around us.
19 President, if the sponsor would continue to
20 yield.

23 SENATOR LANZA: Yes, I will,
24 Mr. President.

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1 Senator yields.
2 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Okay. So
3 so far in our discussion we have it maybe
4 going to cost the state $600 million in lost
5 revenue, with no explanation of what we'll cut
6 out of the budget. But we have a hypothetical
7 that changing tax structure changes economic
8 activity. Fine.
9 Then we have a hypothetical that
10 maybe it's $50 -- maybe it's $200. I won't
11 even argue that, that you say the 32 cents
12 would save, because obviously it would be
13 individual, based on the amount of driving
14 that's used.
15 Again, I would submit that I have
16 read your bill carefully. There is nothing in
17 the bill that says this money will be
18 transferred to the consumer at the pump. And
19 in fact, the evidence from other states, from
20 our own state, because we've done a cap
21 before, is in fact that the money is not
22 transferred to the consumer at the pump. Just
23 the opposite.
24 Seven out of the 15 counties in the
25 State of New York who had done their own sales

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1 tax cap when we did the cap actually have now
2 reversed themselves, showing that their prices
3 went up, their consumers didn't save, their
4 counties lost money for transportation and
5 highways and mass transit.
6 And ironically, the evidence from
7 our own state is that they increased property
8 taxes at the local level to make up for the
9 lost tax from caps like this where the
10 consumer didn't see a decrease in the cost of
11 gasoline, but in fact the counties saw a loss
12 of revenue that they then had to make up
13 through an increase in property taxes.
14 So from a tax-policy perspective,
15 this is a bit of a three-card monte game.
16 And in fact, while my colleague
17 Senator Duane asked you a series of questions
18 about your financial analysis and you admitted
19 that there wasn't that much -- but we have a
20 lot of hypotheticals -- there are 150
21 economists in this country, including Nobel
22 Prize winners, who have signed a document
23 saying this kind of gimmick will do nothing to
24 save people money but in fact will increase
25 the profit margin --

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1 SENATOR LANZA: Is there a

2 question sometime in the future here?
3 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: I am
4 getting to the question of the oil companies,
5 but I'm responding to your comment. And in
6 fact --
7 SENATOR LANZA: Mr. President, is
8 there a question anytime in the future here?
10 me. A little order here.
11 Do you have a question, Senator?
12 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: I do. I'm
13 getting to it. Thank you, Senator.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: Okay.
15 It's coming.
17 It's coming. Thank you so much, Mr.
18 President.
19 SENATOR LANZA: So is Christmas.
20 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: In
21 reference to also answering a point you made,
22 in fact, the oil companies' profits have
23 skyrocketed. Exxon Mobil just reported a
24 17 percent net increase in profits for the
25 first quarter of 2008, while pump prices

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1 continue to skyrocket. The oil companies have
2 pocketed well over $100 billion in profits.
3 But I will ask you, we know --
4 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: Here

5 it comes.
6 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: -- and I
7 think we agree -- thank you, Mr. President --
8 that a fundamental problem within our country
9 for all of our people, which are costing us
10 far more than the 50 or 100 or 150 dollars you
11 think your gas holiday might give someone, is
12 our dependence on foreign oil. How will this
13 bill decrease our dependence on foreign oil?
15 through you.
17 Senator Lanza.
18 SENATOR LANZA: First, with
19 respect to those Nobel laureates, I presume
20 the Senator from Manhattan means Al Gore, who
21 of course is on the record saying that gas
22 should cost more.
23 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: No, he
24 wasn't one of the 150. He doesn't --
25 SENATOR LANZA: We just have a

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1 fundamental difference of opinion. Some
2 people believe that gas should cost $10 a
3 gallon so that people would not be able to get
4 in their cars, because they don't want people
5 to get into their cars. They don't want
6 people to be able to get around. They don't
7 want people to be able to have the freedom of

8 travel that people in this country presently
9 have. They don't want that.
10 I could respect that position.
11 People should be more honest about it. Some
12 have, like Al Gore, the Nobel laureate, who
13 says that gas should cost a lot more so that
14 we can keep people in their houses. I can
15 respect it and at the same time vehemently
16 disagree with it.
17 With respect to the fact that
18 there's proof that this won't reduce the price
19 of gas, that is categorically untrue. You
20 need only look around. Again, I hate to keep
21 giving -- plugging our neighboring state of
22 New Jersey, but gas costs less there.
23 I know. When I come to Albany, I
24 travel through New Jersey. Do you know what I
25 do? I fill up in New Jersey. When I leave

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1 Albany on my way back, Mr. President, to
2 Staten Island, you know what I do, Senator? I
3 fill up again. Do you know why? Because
4 round trip, I save about $8.
5 It might not be a lot to some
6 people, Senator Krueger, in your district; it
7 might not be a lot to some people in
8 Manhattan, but it's a lot to me. It's a lot
9 to my family. It makes a difference. It
10 means a lot to the people in my district and a

11 lot to the people of this state. It means
12 something.
13 So whether it's $6, $8, $50 or
14 $200, people are hurting. We can talk -- and
15 I know Senator Krueger brought up Washington
16 and an energy policy. All good points. I
17 agree with you. We could talk about all the
18 reasons why we can't do something about this.
19 Of course we need a long-term energy policy in
20 this country. Of course a conservation policy
21 is something that is needed. Of course we
22 can't do anything about the speculation in the
23 oil markets. Of course we can't do anything
24 about traditional economic pressures of supply
25 and demand.

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1 Perhaps we could do something about
2 domestic exploration. If Senator Krueger is
3 concerned about dependency on foreign oil,
4 perhaps we can unlock the massive energy
5 resources that exist right here at home in
6 America. But of course people like Al Gore
7 and some of the people that have been talked
8 about, the so-called environmentalists, they
9 don't want us to do that either,
10 Mr. President. They want the price of
11 gasoline to go up, not down.
12 But again, look at New Jersey,
13 where they impose a lower tax on gasoline.

14 And you know what you'll find? A lower price
15 for gasoline. And look at other states that
16 impose a lower tax on gasoline. And you know
17 what you'll find, Mr. President? A lower
18 price for a gallon of gasoline.
19 Look to New York that has one of
20 the highest taxes, and you know what you'll
21 find? One of the highest prices in the United
22 States of America on the price of gasoline.
23 Is that a coincidence, Mr. President? No, of
24 course it's not a coincidence. Gas costs more
25 here because we impose a higher tax here. If

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1 we impose a lower tax in New York, gas will
2 cost less. What is so hard about this to
3 understand?
4 And people need it. People are
5 hurting. They're hurting. And so we could
6 talk, we can play the blame game, we can point
7 fingers, we could talk about all the things we
8 cannot do. But that won't help people.
9 There is one thing we can do here
10 in the State of New York. There's one thing
11 we can have that will have definite, immediate
12 results. And that is to eliminate the tax
13 from the period of Memorial Day to Labor Day,
14 32 cents that we put on the price of gasoline.
15 And annualized, annualized, that's
16 about a 10 percent cut in the tax -- I'm

17 sorry, it's a 40 percent cut in the tax,
18 annualized, if we look at consumption
19 throughout the year. Which means it's around
20 a 12-cent break to the people of New York
21 State.
22 We can afford, Senator Krueger, we
23 can afford to give the people of the State of
24 New York a 12-cent annualized break in the
25 price of gasoline. Many people say we spend

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1 too much. They're right. We can find a way
2 to spend less. Government should have to do
3 what people do and families do. Government
4 should find a way to do more with less during
5 difficult economic times. That's our job.
6 We'll find a way. Senator Krueger, you and I
7 and the members of this body, we'll find a
8 way, working together, we'll find a way to do
9 more with less.
10 People deserve, demand, and need
11 relief, and that's what this will do.
13 Mr. President. On the bill.
15 Senator Krueger, on the bill.
17 Thank you, Senator Lanza, for your -- I'm not
18 sure they were answers to my questions, but
19 for your passion.

20 We can do more. It's not this is
21 the only thing we could do. I disagree. I
22 would even argue that we won't do this,
23 because it's a one-house bill, so we will
24 spend the time talking.
25 But this bill does not guarantee

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1 the money goes to the consumers at the pump.
2 And the data and the evidence shows that it
3 won't go to the people at the pump. So the
4 passion to try to save the money for your
5 constituents and my constituents -- because I
6 would agree, my constituents feel the same way
7 about the $8 at the gas tank or the $50 or the
8 $100. That is not unique to any geographic
9 section of the State of New York.
10 But this bill allows the
11 wholesalers and the refineries to keep the
12 money rather than pass it on to the consumers.
13 There is nothing in this bill that mandates it
14 goes to consumers. There is no legal way for
15 us to require them, after this bill were to
16 pass, if it were to pass, to give that money
17 to the consumers at the gas pump.
18 And evidence from our previous
19 attempts at this, and recorded documents from
20 economists who aren't just saying let it be
21 $10 a gallon but, if you read the report, say
22 this is a fiscal gimmick that won't save

23 people money and will increase profits for the
24 oil refineries and the big oil companies, that
25 this is not the way to do it even if that's

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1 what you wanted to do.
2 I would argue that if this bill had
3 moved through hearings, as Senator Duane
4 proposed, rather than being dated I think
5 sometime in the last two weeks, that we could
6 have had discussions about what we could be
7 doing to both increase energy efficiency and
8 try to address the needs of the consumers of
9 the State of New York.
10 In fact, there were several other
11 bills we just passed on the floor that came
12 through the Rules Committee today that are
13 much more specific and targeted in giving tax
14 advantages to people who will purchase new or
15 used less-gas-guzzling cars. All right?
16 We are talking about and we are
17 moving legislation today that would give
18 incentives to go to non-petroleum-based
19 products for our energy system and the
20 potential for expanding the non -- I emphasize
21 non-corn-based ethanol, but rather the
22 alternative forms of ethanol that are being
23 developed.
24 We could, and I'm not sure where I
25 would be on that right now, but we could

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1 create a rebate that specifically went to
2 people who drove their cars -- perhaps a
3 rebate for people who drove their cars to and
4 from work, perhaps a rebate for people who
5 drove their cars based on a progressive model
6 of their income -- where we could guarantee
7 that the money would actually go to the
8 consumer, not to the oil companies.
9 We could do that today. We could
10 do that next week. We could, in fact, push
11 for different kinds of mileage standards right
12 here in New York State through a number of
13 proposals, including being more active in
14 forcing our federal government -- you said
15 don't rant about the federal government, but
16 we're allowed to rant a little bit when the
17 federal government not only failed to do their
18 job but harms our constituents here in
19 New York State.
20 So we could be talking about any
21 number of proposals that would make more sense
22 than this legislation that are not exclusively
23 get-out-of-your-car proposals but, rather,
24 increase the efficiency of our vehicles, focus
25 on alternatives to foreign oil, and make sure

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1 that if you say you're giving a tax rebate, it

2 actually goes to the consumers.
4 Senator Marcellino, why do you rise?
5 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Just to
6 point out to the worthy Senator from Manhattan
7 that we passed a bill earlier, my bill, that
8 provided a credit --
9 SENATOR DUANE: Mr. President.
10 SENATOR MARCELLINO: -- for cars
11 with greater efficiency and mileage.
12 SENATOR DUANE: Mr. President,
13 point of order.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: What's
15 your point of order, Senator?
16 SENATOR DUANE: Senator Krueger
17 has the floor.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: Yes.
21 Senator Krueger.
22 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: But in
23 fact, if I had been asked to yield for that
24 point, I would have pointed out I just said
25 that a few minutes ago, that we are moving

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1 bills that make sense, including Senator
2 Marcellino's bill that passed half an hour ago
3 on the floor of the Senate.
4 So in response -- thank you,

5 Senator Marcellino -- to my point, Senator
6 Lanza said there's nothing else we can be
7 doing. And in fact, there are other things we
8 can be going doing; your bill is a perfect
9 example of that. So thank you for rising, I
10 suppose in my support, on this argument.
11 Again, you really have to sort
12 through the facts from the fiction -- thank
13 you so much -- because had we had some more
14 time to dialogue together, the Senator called
15 for a bipartisan approach to this. And a
16 bipartisan approach, if we had hearings, if it
17 even went through Senator Marcellino's
18 committee -- I don't believe this bill did,
19 since we just moved it through Rules today --
20 no doubt he and other members of his committee
21 would have had some very good recommendations
22 that would actually be able to move us towards
23 our goals.
24 This bill has no way of
25 guaranteeing that the people of New York will

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1 see a lower gas price. It has a clear
2 mechanism for the oil companies to keep the
3 entire 32-cent profit. There is no mechanism
4 in this bill for them to not collect it.
5 And again, I will refer my
6 colleagues to a report done by the Onondaga
7 County Division of Management and Budget,

8 their analysis of why the cap on sales tax for
9 gasoline and diesel did not have the outcome
10 you're proposing your bill would have. That
11 they are not continuing their own sales tax
12 cap because they did not find that they had
13 the outcome they wished to have, reduced price
14 at the pumps. They had increasing price at
15 the pumps, lower tax revenue for important
16 issues in their county, and higher property
17 tax at the end of the day.
18 And I've heard enough discussions
19 on the floor of this chamber to know that no
20 one is really interested in proposals that
21 result in higher property taxes and not lower
22 gas taxes -- excuse me, lower gas costs. So I
23 will be voting no, and I urge my colleagues to
24 rethink this and to vote no.
25 Thank you, Mr. President.

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2 you, Senator.
3 Senator Little, why do you rise?
4 SENATOR LITTLE: Thank you. I
5 would like to ask Senator Krueger a question
6 in regard to some of the comments that she
7 just made. Would she respond?
9 Senator Krueger, will you yield?
10 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: I certainly

11 yield.
13 Senator yields, Senator.
14 SENATOR LITTLE: Thank you.
15 Through you, Mr. President, several
16 years ago in this body we removed the sales
17 tax on clothing and shoes and gave a holiday
18 on the sales tax on clothing and shoes. Were
19 we concerned about the retailer gouging the
20 consumer then?
21 And wasn't the point that we would
22 bring more people into our state to purchase
23 clothing and more people would purchase
24 clothing that week when they did not have a
25 sales tax on that thing?

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1 I don't remember anyone being
2 concerned about the retailer doing the
3 gouging. It was a benefit, it was an
4 incentive, and it was a tax reduction for the
5 people of this state.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: Is
7 that a question, Senator?
8 SENATOR LITTLE: Yes. Were you
9 concerned at that time?
11 I appreciate the question.
12 No, I wasn't, because the sales tax
13 structure on clothing and shoes is different

14 than the way we've established the law on
15 taxes and gasoline.
16 So when you lift a sales tax that
17 is only applied at the retail level, collected
18 at the retail level, and in this case stopped
19 from being collected at the retail level, it's
20 very clear-cut. The tax is not paid by the
21 consumer, and the retailer does not owe the
22 money to the state or local government.
23 It is a different formula in
24 gasoline tax, where in fact the tax, quote,
25 unquote, is collected or not collected at the

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1 wholesale level. So the wholesaler would not
2 have to roll that savings to the retailer.
3 The retailer would not have to roll that
4 savings to the consumer. And in fact, under
5 this legislation, there would be no way for us
6 to ever see what happened there.
7 SENATOR LITTLE: Through you,
8 Mr. President, another question, if I may.
9 I thoroughly understand the sales
10 tax --
12 me. Let me just explain something.
13 A question has been raised that the
14 Senator did not have the floor when you asked
15 her to yield. However, you did stand up while
16 she had the floor, and that's why I allowed

17 you to ask Senator Krueger to yield.
18 So hopefully that will answer some
19 questions that people have risen to their feet
20 to ask. So I will allow the debate to
21 continue.
22 Are you asking the Senator to
23 yield?
24 SENATOR LITTLE: Yes. And just
25 in response --

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1 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: Do you
2 yield, Senator?
3 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Yes, I will
4 yield.
6 Senator yields.
7 SENATOR LITTLE: Just an
8 additional -- I do understand the sales tax is
9 added on clothing and shoes at the time of the
10 sale. But couldn't the retailer increase the
11 price of that clothing and those shoes to
12 compensate for that reduced tax? They
13 certainly, in my mind, could have.
14 Thank you.
16 Senator Krueger.
17 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Yes. But
18 you would then see it, and you would see it as
19 an increase in the actual cost, separate from

20 and unrelated to the tax question.
21 Again, where the tax is collected
22 is much further back in the food chain, so to
23 speak, on gasoline than at the front desk
24 between the shopper and the clothing store.
25 So again, I will say it's not a parallel

(518) 371-8910
1921
1 argument.
4 you, Senators.
5 Senator Klein.
6 SENATOR KLEIN: Thank you,
7 Mr. President.
8 Would Mr. Lanza yield for a few
9 questions?
13 Mr. President.
15 Senator yields.
16 SENATOR KLEIN: Thank you.
17 Again, through you, Mr. President,
18 my question to Mr. Lanza is, have you looked
19 into the other states that have actually
20 instituted gas-tax holidays?
21 One of the -- just to sort of give
22 you an outline, since 2000 there's been four

23 states, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, and
24 Indiana, who have instituted gas-tax holidays.
25 Are you familiar with those states and their

(518) 371-8910
1922
1 experiences?
3 the question have I looked into other states,
4 as I've said before, every week I look into
5 the State of New Jersey and I see that the
6 price of gasoline there costs significantly
7 less than it costs in this state. And when I
8 look further into what's happening in that
9 state, I find that they impose a lower tax on
10 the price of gasoline.
11 And so I know, because of the
12 experience in that state and experience in
13 other states, that by reducing the -- by
14 eliminating the tax that we impose of 32
15 cents, that I know the price of gas will go
16 down in this state.
17 SENATOR KLEIN: Again, through
18 you, Mr. President. Mr. Lanza, I'm not
19 questioning --
22 SENATOR KLEIN: I'm sorry.
24 Mr. President.

(518) 371-8910
1923
1 Senator yields.
2 SENATOR KLEIN: Mr. Lanza, I'm
3 not questioning your passion. I'm trying to
4 alleviate some of the taxes on gasoline.
5 However, we are talking about
6 instituting a gas-tax holiday, and I think it
7 is important to see the experience of other
8 states.
9 The states that I did mention have
10 not had good results. As a matter of fact,
11 they did away with the tax holidays because
12 they found that the consumer was not sharing
13 in the savings, the money wasn't going
14 directly to them, so they did away with that.
15 So again, have you looked at those
16 other states and their experience with this
17 specific proposal?
18 SENATOR LANZA: Mr. President, in
19 the reading that I have done, some have
20 suggested that because the price of gasoline
21 has gone up juxtaposed to a reduction in the
22 tax, that somehow it was because that tax
23 savings was not passed along to the consumer.
24 But that ignores the very basic
25 reality that gasoline at its fundamental

(518) 371-8910
1924
1 level, across the country, has gone up,

2 because of the price of crude oil, other
3 factors of supply and demand.
4 And I guess the question I have is,
5 does that question from my good colleague
6 suggest that he believes that if we were to
7 eliminate the gas-tax cap that we presently
8 have in place in New York, does he believe
9 that the price of gasoline would not go up?
10 Of course it would go up. If we
11 doubled the tax on gasoline today -- because
12 gasoline is at $4 a gallon; we tax it only up
13 to the price of $2 a gallon -- does anyone
14 here believe that if we eliminated that cap,
15 the price of gas wouldn't go up? Of course it
16 would. Of course it would.
17 When you raise taxes, the price of
18 things go up to the consumer. When you lower
19 taxes, the price of things go down, whether
20 it's gasoline, milk, bread, eggs. That's just
21 basic economics.
22 SENATOR KLEIN: Again, would
23 Mr. Lanza continue to yield, Mr. President?

(518) 371-8910
1925
2 Mr. President.
3 SENATOR KLEIN: Again, we talked
4 a little bit before about lost revenue. And

5 certainly our state gas tax goes to roads,
6 bridges.
7 How are we going to make up for the
8 loss -- and I think the number you cited was
9 $600 million. According to my conversations
10 with the State DOT, it's closer to
11 $629 million in lost revenue. How would we
12 make up that shortfall?
14 through you. First, again, we arrive at that
15 number by a very simple formula. We take the
16 number of gallons of gasoline, multiply it by
17 32 cents, we spit out a number.
18 Of course, as everyone understands
19 and appreciates here, the economy is far more
20 complicated than that. We know, from common
21 experience and from prior experience, that
22 when you lower the prices of goods that
23 there's an economic stimulus provided.
24 The same way I fill up my tank with
25 gas from New Jersey to save money, many people

(518) 371-8910
1926
1 in surrounding states -- Connecticut, Vermont,
2 Pennsylvania -- maybe Canada, they'll come to
3 New York, the way I go to New Jersey, to avail
4 themselves of the lower price of gas.
5 And a funny thing happens on the
6 way to New York when you come here to fill up
7 your car with gasoline. You might stay here a

8 little while. You might shop here. You might
9 decide to take a trip to one of the beautiful
10 places, one of the many beautiful places we
11 have, from Long Island to Niagara, Rochester,
12 the Finger Lakes, Lake George, Staten Island.
13 A beautiful place; Senator Savino will tell
14 you.
15 Many beautiful places. New York
16 City. I said Niagara Falls -- the list is
17 endless. It's endless. We happen to be
18 blessed to live in one of the most beautiful
19 states in the union.
20 So we know people may visit here,
21 there may be increased tourism, people will
22 shop here, people will dine here.
23 So I don't know what that number
24 is. That's the worst-case scenario, the
25 worst-case scenario. And no one in this room

(518) 371-8910
1927
1 can tell you what that number is. I believe
2 it will be far less. I believe that the
3 impact here will be far less, because it will
4 provide an economic stimulus.
5 But let's say there is a cost.
6 Let's say there is a cost. We spend too much.
7 That's what the Governor says. The Governor
8 says -- a Democrat -- says we spend too much
9 in this state. And we do. All the fiscal
10 watchdogs say we spend too much. And we do.

11 You know, families are suffering.
12 Families are suffering. They have to do more
13 with less today just to make ends meet.
14 Government could do more with less.
15 So if there is a cost, Senator, we
16 can work it out. All of us in this room, we
17 can work it out. We can make government
18 leaner and more efficient, because that's what
19 people deserve. People deserve relief, and
20 they deserve an efficient, leaner, more
21 responsive government. And this is the time
22 to do it.
23 The argument can also be made --
24 does anyone here believe, does anyone here
25 believe -- because the question was, the

(518) 371-8910
1928
1 question was if we have less money because of
2 this, we'll have less money to do one specific
3 thing, roads.
4 We also have another dedicated
5 revenue stream in this state, the Lottery.
6 It's for education. Does anyone believe that
7 if somehow we took in less revenue from the
8 Lottery this year that we're going to spend
9 less on education?
10 Of course that's not going to
11 happen. We'll find a way to meet the
12 priorities of this state. We can do that.
13 That's our job. That's our job. So if

14 revenues from the Lottery come down, we'll
15 find a way to meet our educational priorities.
16 And if revenue were to happen to
17 come down here, we'll find a way to meet our
18 priorities when it comes to our roads and
19 bridges in this state.
20 You know why? Because I have faith
21 in this body. I have faith in government. At
22 the end of the day, we'll do the right thing
23 and we'll find a way.
24 SENATOR KLEIN: Thank you,
25 Mr. Lanza.

(518) 371-8910
1929
1 On the bill, Mr. President.
3 Senator Klein, on the bill.
4 SENATOR KLEIN: As I said
5 earlier, you know, I don't question Senator
6 Lanza's passion on this issue.
7 As elected officials, it's our duty
8 to be responsive to our constituents. And
9 certainly I don't think any of us can go to
10 any town meeting or shop in our local
11 supermarket or go to our local gas station
12 without our constituents talking about the
13 high price of gasoline.
14 It was said earlier this is one of
15 those issues where our role is really limited.
16 This is something that has to be dealt with on

17 a national policy. And I think it's worth
18 mentioning, without being overly partisan,
19 that during the Bush administration we have
20 seen gas prices skyrocket.
21 It is our job in the state to do
22 something to help alleviate some of that
23 burden. As Mr. Lanza did mention, and
24 according to a New York Times article that I
25 read the other day, the savings to the average

(518) 371-8910
1930
1 driver, if we did away with the tax under this
2 legislation, would be a savings of $55.45.
3 It's something. It's clearly not enough.
4 And if we want to really take this
5 issue seriously, we really have to contact our
6 Congress members and really have something
7 done concrete on a national level.
8 We also have to, I think, revamp
9 our environmental policy, make us more
10 efficient, really look for alternative sources
11 of fuel and energy. These are the things we
12 clearly have to do.
13 But at the same time, if we're
14 standing here today trying to save our
15 constituents some money by doing away with the
16 tax during the holiday season, I think it's
17 incumbent upon us to do the right thing. And
18 I think doing the right thing would be through
19 a targeted tax-rebate program. We want to

20 make sure our constituents get this money.
21 And if we adopted such a program today, we can
22 ensure that they would do just that, get the
23 savings.
24 We can also do it according to
25 income. And I have some figures here that we

(518) 371-8910
1931
1 looked at. If you actually institute a
2 gas-tax holiday -- and let's say, just for
3 argument's sake, we set the income level at
4 $150,000 a year for a family -- that would
5 cost the state $320 million, far below the
6 $600 million under Mr. Lanza's plan today.
7 So while at the same time -- I want
8 to listen to my constituents. I want to make
9 my constituents happy on this issue. But I
10 think the way we go about doing it is to make
11 sure they get the direct savings. And I think
12 the way we do that is through a targeted tax
13 rebate.
14 So at the same time, I'm going to
15 vote yes today. But I'm frustrated. This is
16 a one-house bill. And I'm glad it's a
17 one-house bill, because it's really not going
18 to do anything.
19 I'm hopeful that we're going to
20 come back, work with our colleagues in the
21 Assembly, hopefully allow us in the minority
22 to work with the majority to put forth a real

23 program, a targeted tax rebate, so we can go
24 home and we can talk to our constituents and
25 say: We did the right thing, we truly helped

(518) 371-8910
1932
1 you save money on the high price of gasoline.
4 you, Senator Klein.
5 Senator Connor.
6 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you,
7 Mr. President.
8 Mr. President, how did we get here?
9 Why are we here with these huge, huge gasoline
10 price increases? It was predictable,
11 Mr. President, when you have someone running
12 the United States of America with a secret
13 energy policy whose last job was an executive
14 for an oil company, and when you also --
15 that's Mr. Cheney -- when you also have a
16 president whose last job was an oil company
17 executive.
18 And then when you look at the
19 record obscene excess profits that the oil
20 companies are making, it doesn't translate.
21 Yes, oil by the barrel has gone up. And you
22 would expect prices to rise. But the oil
23 companies are making excess profits.
24 You know, somebody said, well -- I
25 heard someone on TV the other day say we

(518) 371-8910
1933
1 should have an excess profits tax. And
2 some -- oh, how could you do that? Well,
3 we're at war, aren't we? Isn't at least some
4 of the cost of the energy increase because of
5 war in Iraq? We also have a war in
6 Afghanistan.
7 In World War II there was an excess
8 profits tax that large corporations that made
9 extraordinary profits during that time period
10 had to pay. Why isn't our national government
11 doing that? What can we really do about it?
12 You know, I respect that Senator
13 Lanza said his bill is just eighth-grade math.
14 The problem, Mr. President, is it's
15 eighth-grade policy. And I'll tell you why.
16 Listen, when I was a kid we looked
17 forward to that week in July when the factory
18 closed for inventory. I didn't know what
19 inventory was; I just knew it was good my dad
20 didn't have to go to work. We piled in the
21 Chevy and we drove to the seashore.
22 Everybody has -- I will not yield
23 till I'm finished, Mr. President. I'm still
24 at the seashore.
25 (Laughter.)

(518) 371-8910
1934
1 SENATOR LANZA: Will Senator

2 Connor yield?
3 SENATOR CONNOR: No. No,
4 Mr. President. When I'm finished, I'll be
5 happy to yield.
6 So we're at the seashore, and it
7 was a great week. And so this bill harkens
8 people back to that, doesn't it? Oh, we're
9 going to give the families a break in the
10 summer.
11 Let me ask you a question,
12 Mr. President. Why isn't it just as important
13 that someone can afford in early May to take a
14 relative to daily doctor's visits when they
15 have some ongoing treatment as it is for
16 somebody to take their kid to the seashore in
17 July?
18 Or, Mr. President, I understand
19 giving relief to families. Why isn't a
20 shivering family in December, facing higher
21 home heating oil costs, why isn't it important
22 to give them a break, or more important or
23 just as important as, you know, the summer
24 traveler to someone who wants to get in their
25 car in August and go touring around New York

(518) 371-8910
1935
1 State?
2 That's why I say it's poor policy.
3 It's a gimmick, Mr. President. It's a
4 gimmick. It's a summer gift. Every kid likes

5 that, getting out of school for the summer.
6 That's why I say it's an eighth-grade policy.
7 And it has that appeal to, ah, gee, the
8 summer, you know, wonderful summer days, long
9 summer days. What about cold winter nights
10 and home heating fuel? Why are we giving no
11 breaks then?
12 It's poor policy, Mr. President.
13 It's poor policy because it's going in the
14 wrong step environmentally. There's no
15 guarantee that the consumer will benefit,
16 given the way gasoline is priced, zone pricing
17 and other pricing.
18 Mr. President, I know a bit about
19 New Jersey. Interesting thing about
20 New Jersey -- and I'm sure Senator Lanza knows
21 this -- is you don't pump your own gas there.
22 There's no -- it's against the law. Gas
23 stations have to hire people. Some of them
24 have two and three people pumping gas. They
25 get work out of it.

(518) 371-8910
1936
1 And I think most stations I've been
2 in, because I had to go down to my mother's a
3 lot last year, they're immigrants. They get,
4 at one gas station, two or three shifts going
5 on. And their prices are cheaper than ours.
6 And I suggest it's not just taxes.
7 Yes, New Jersey has the third-lowest gasoline

8 taxes in the nation. It doesn't account for
9 the difference. One thing that may account,
10 they say, is, well, New Jersey has more
11 refineries. It has refineries in Linden, in
12 North Jersey, a string of refineries in
13 Paulsboro, down in -- I guess that's below
14 Camden. My uncle used to drive a gasoline
15 truck there, president of the union, out of
16 the Paulsboro refinery.
17 And in deep water, down by the
18 Memorial Bridge, there are more refineries.
19 It's also known as "Cancer Alley" in
20 New Jersey. That's another issue. Not
21 unrelated to the refineries, I'm sure.
22 The fact is, though, it's a shorter
23 distance from Linden, New Jersey to Brooklyn,
24 New York than it is from Linden, New Jersey or
25 Paulsboro, New Jersey to Trenton, New Jersey.

(518) 371-8910
1937
1 So it's not just, oh, they have so many
2 refineries nearby, it's a transportation
3 issue. It's not that.
4 Why aren't we looking into price
5 structures for New York? Why is the basic
6 price, excepting the tax -- you take the
7 32 cents off, New Jersey's gasoline is still
8 probably, on average, a quarter a gallon
9 cheaper than ours if you took our tax off.
10 Why is that? And it's more expensive in

11 service stations, because they have to have
12 people there to pump gas. There's no
13 self-service.
14 So it's not just the taxes are
15 lower there. The gasoline is lower. The
16 pricing is lower, the pricing by the oil
17 companies and the fuel distributors. Somehow
18 or other we're getting gouged in New York. So
19 it's not just about this tax.
20 You know, I just don't see the
21 policy behind this. I understand the desire
22 to give people something or give people the
23 appearance of something. But from a policy
24 standpoint, I just don't see why we want to
25 encourage people to drive around all summer,

(518) 371-8910
1938
1 and we think that's worthy of a $500 million
2 or $600 million subsidy, as opposed to helping
3 out people -- if I represented,
4 particularly -- you know, New York City is
5 very efficient when it comes to heating in
6 apartment buildings. I mean, any
7 environmentalist will tell you it's more
8 environmentally sound.
9 For people who live in the suburbs
10 or represent the suburbs or upstate, I would
11 be more concerned about the cost of home
12 heating fuel and what are we doing to help
13 people there. They don't need it in July and

14 August.
15 So the policy choice here is a
16 false one. It's illusory. It doesn't answer
17 the basic, fundamental problems,
18 Mr. President. It just doesn't do it. It is
19 eighth-grade policy, and it will have a lot of
20 appeal for eighth-graders.
21 But thinking New Yorkers are going
22 to look at this and say: What about April?
23 What about September 15th? And what about a
24 very cold December or January? What are you
25 doing for me there? You're trying to divert

(518) 371-8910
1939
1 my eyes in the summer when things are free and
2 easy, and you're not really doing anything to
3 relieve the problem of much too costly
4 gasoline, much too costly fuel products in
5 general in New York State.
6 Mr. President, I intend to vote no.
8 you, Senator Connor.
9 SENATOR CONNOR: I'll yield if
10 the Senator wants.
12 Senator Lanza, why do you rise?
13 SENATOR LANZA: Would Senator
14 Connor yield to a question?
16 Senator, will you yield?

17 SENATOR CONNOR: Yes,
18 Mr. President.
20 Senator yields.
21 SENATOR LANZA: Senator, you
22 talked about the oil companies gouging and
23 that's the real problem.
24 Senator, why do you believe that
25 oil companies making 10 cents a gallon is

(518) 371-8910
1940
1 gouging and that New York State charging
2 32 cents a gallon is okay?
3 SENATOR CONNOR: I don't know
4 that oil companies are making 10 cents a
5 gallon, Senator, to tell you the truth.
6 I know last year's reports showed
7 record profits for oil companies. All the
8 large oil companies made record profits. And,
9 you know, I read that in the Wall Street
10 Journal, the New York Times. That's an
11 acknowledged fact.
12 I have no sympathy for the oil
13 companies. They're not doing badly. In fact,
14 I have a lot of disdain for the fact that they
15 are making, on top of what is a world
16 oil-price increase, obviously, in the
17 per-barrel cost, the fact is the oil companies
18 are making, in my opinion, an excess on top of
19 that.
21 would Senator Connor continue to yield?
23 Senator Connor, do you continue to yield?
24 SENATOR CONNOR: Certainly,
25 Mr. President.

(518) 371-8910
1941
3 SENATOR LANZA: Senator, you
4 suggested that this bill misses the mark
5 because it only removes the tax during the
6 summer months. Would you support this
7 legislation if it were to eliminate the tax
8 throughout the entire year?
9 SENATOR CONNOR: No, I wouldn't.
10 Mr. President, I wouldn't.
11 What I would support is some sort
12 of rebate plan that offered a rebate to
13 consumers for their consumption, whether it be
14 home heating fuel or gasoline.
15 You know, the problem,
16 Mr. President, with Senator Lanza's bill is it
17 rewards people who drive automobiles,
18 potentially, if it gets passed along -- that's
19 a big if -- and it does nothing for people who
20 don't drive automobiles but have to buy home
21 heating fuel or other petroleum products whose
22 costs have risen astronomically. It does

23 nothing for them.
24 So I would support, Mr. President,
25 what I would support 12 months a year is a

(518) 371-8910
1942
1 rebate program that, based on income
2 structure, allows a rebate to people at the
3 end of the year for the cost, the taxes on
4 their consumption of not just gasoline but
5 other forms of petroleum products.
7 would Senator Connor yield for one more
8 question.
10 Senator Connor, would you yield for one more
11 question?
12 SENATOR CONNOR: Absolutely,
13 Mr. President.
15 Senator yields.
16 SENATOR LANZA: Senator, I
17 suggested in my discussion before that the
18 math involved in arriving at the fiscal impact
19 that's stated in the bill is easy enough for
20 an eighth-grader. You went further to say
21 this is eighth-grade policy.
22 Senator, I know eighth-graders, and
23 eighth-graders, unlike adults, often sit
24 around and blame each other for things that
25 they do, point the finger, talk about how to

(518) 371-8910
1943
1 avoid responsibility. They want to blame
2 everyone else.
3 Isn't, Senator Connor, your
4 rationale here really an eighth-grade
5 rationale, to say that the reason why we
6 shouldn't do this is because it's someone's
7 fault in Washington, someone's fault in the
8 Middle East, someone else's fault? Shouldn't
9 we as adults, Senator, shouldn't we take the
10 action that we can take and deliver results?
11 We can talk about all those other
12 things, and I agree with many of the things
13 that were said today. We should talk about
14 those things. We should discuss them. We can
15 go further than this. But shouldn't we, as
16 adults, shouldn't we, as representatives of
17 the people of this state, shouldn't we do what
18 we can do that will deliver relief? As
19 opposed to sitting around like eighth-graders
20 and pointing to all the reasons why we can't
21 do something and blaming all the people we
22 believe got us to the point that we're in
23 today?
24 SENATOR CONNOR: Mr. President, I
25 think what we should do as responsible

(518) 371-8910
1944
1 legislators is not drive a $500 million or

2 $600 million further hole in our budget in
3 order to give 12 weeks or 13 weeks of
4 gratification to those who drive automobiles,
5 rather than adopt a policy that applies to all
6 New Yorkers every month of the year that will
7 give them some relief from the extraordinary
8 increased expenses that they're undergoing.
9 So that's real policy. A policy
10 that says we're going to give you off July and
11 August has a lot of appeal to grade-school
12 kids. You know, I used to question children
13 and say "What if we passed a law and we had
14 school year-round?" And they'd all go: "No,
15 no, no, no." Certainly had appeal to me,
16 getting the summer off.
17 But that's not adult policy,
18 Mr. President. That's not grownup policy.
19 Grownup policy is figuring out what the State
20 of New York can do to help all New Yorkers who
21 are struggling with the increased cost of all
22 forms of fuel oil, not just gasoline.
23 Now, some of the things we've done,
24 Mr. President -- like Senator Marcellino's
25 bill, other bills, three bills that we passed

(518) 371-8910
1945
1 earlier today -- they are, in my opinion, what
2 responsible adult legislators ought to do,
3 come up with policies that take us in the
4 right direction environmentally, from an

5 energy-conservation standpoint.
6 And yes, they have a cost. But I'm
7 willing to forgo, for example, the sales tax
8 receipts on hybrid vehicles, because I think
9 sound public policy, grownup policy says
10 that -- encourages all New Yorkers to do
11 something that will help all of us.
12 Eighth-grade policy, Mr. President,
13 says let's give everybody the summer off and
14 hope they're all so silly happy with good
15 weather that they don't think about the bigger
16 problems.
17 SENATOR LANZA: Mr. President.
19 Senator Lanza.
20 SENATOR LANZA: I do have one
21 last question, I promise.
22 SENATOR CONNOR: I'll be happy to
23 yield, Mr. President.
25 Senator will yield, Senator Lanza --

(518) 371-8910
1946
2 through you --
3 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: -- for
4 one more question.
5 SENATOR LANZA: Yes. Senator
6 Connor -- and through you, Mr. President --
7 talked about home heating fuel. As you know,

8 we voted to eliminate and have eliminated the
9 state tax on home heating fuel. In fact, we
10 also eliminated tax on clothing, we gave folks
11 a tax holiday on clothing.
12 Senator Connor, did you support and
13 vote for those measures? And why is your
14 support of those two measures different from
15 the argument being put forth in support of
16 this tax holiday for the people of the State
17 of New York?
18 SENATOR CONNOR: Mr. President,
19 that's the point: holiday.
20 Life's not a holiday,
21 Mr. President. It's not a holiday for
22 New Yorkers who are struggling to pay their
23 bills. It's not a holiday for people who must
24 drive their automobiles to work, not just to
25 the beach.

(518) 371-8910
1947
1 I really fail to see why someone
2 who is forced by their geographic
3 circumstances to drive to work every day, to
4 drive to work in early May, to drive to work
5 in late September, shouldn't be getting -- in
6 my opinion, that person, tax-paying person
7 with a job, we ought to be worrying about
8 them, not where they're going to drive on
9 their vacation, if they get one.
10 And not every working New Yorker,

11 Mr. President, unfortunately, gets a vacation.
12 Lots of people work day in and day out and
13 they don't get a vacation.
14 Years ago, with Assemblyman
15 Barbaro, I sponsored a bill to mandate every
16 worker in New York State be given paid
17 vacation every year of at least a week. And
18 you should have heard the cries,
19 Mr. President, from businesses and others, how
20 could we do this.
21 So, you know, maybe in the
22 wealthier parts of the state, and some
23 middle-class parts, people do get that summer
24 vacation. But not everybody gets a vacation.
25 I'm concerned about the families

(518) 371-8910
1948
1 that have to use that automobile to get their
2 kids to school or their kids to camp so they
3 can go to work, or certainly during the year,
4 and they go to work every week of the year,
5 not just in July and August. So I think
6 that's why we have -- I don't like holidays.
7 Now, a sales-tax holiday is quite
8 different. And I think Senator Liz Krueger
9 absolutely demonstrated why a sales-tax break
10 is different than the fuel tax. And I won't
11 repeat it; she did it quite well.
12 But, you know, it's one thing to
13 say let's have a sales tax holiday just before

14 school goes back, so plain working folks
15 who -- they're not going out to buy a
16 wardrobe, they're not going out to get the
17 latest fashions, they're taking the kids to
18 get them sneakers and jeans or chinos or
19 whatever they wear, and a couple of shirts, to
20 go to school.
21 Why are they doing it? Well, your
22 kids have a way of going like this
23 (indicating) and getting bigger and bigger.
24 So it's not a frivolity, it's not a frill that
25 you have to take your kids shopping before

(518) 371-8910
1949
1 they go back to school. Usually in the summer
2 they grow a couple of inches, when they're
3 younger.
4 So that has real relief for working
5 families, for middle-class families in
6 New York State at that particular time.
7 That's when people shop for back to school.
8 But a holiday from gasoline tax to
9 me, Mr. President, doesn't make a lot of sense
10 if what it means is they're going to have a
11 holiday so they can go on holiday.
12 I don't begrudge anybody a good
13 summer vacation, but I'm concerned about the
14 men and women who have to work, the woman who
15 has to drive to get to that job as a waitress
16 in a diner, the man who has to drive to get to

17 that job in a factory -- where they're left --
18 or in a retail store or whatever. And they
19 have to go to work. They don't have to go on
20 vacation, but they have to go to work.
21 That's why this is poor policy.
22 It's a lighthearted, oh, we're going to do
23 something for you, have a good vacation. If
24 you get one.

(518) 371-8910
1950
2 you, Senator.
3 Just for people's interest, the
4 desk has received some requests on how many
5 speakers. There's 14 more Senators who wish
6 to speak on the bill or debate the bill.
7 Senator Larkin.
8 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President,
9 with unanimous consent of the Minority, we
10 would like to allow Senator Alesi the
11 opportunity to vote.
12 Senator Alesi has a complicated
13 medical appointment this afternoon, and we had
14 like to see him get there so he can start
15 running around instead of hobbling around.
16 At this time I'd like to ask that
17 we read the last section and allow Senator
18 Alesi to vote.

20 you, Senator.
21 The Secretary will read the last
22 section.

(518) 371-8910
1951
1 the roll.
4 Senator Alesi.
5 SENATOR ALESI: Mr. President, if
6 I may cast my vote in the affirmative.
8 Senator Alesi's vote will be recorded in the
9 affirmative.
10 We will now withdraw the roll call.
11 Senator Larkin.
12 SENATOR LARKIN: Could we now
13 return to the normal procedures.
15 you, Senator.
16 Senator Winner.
17 SENATOR WINNER: Thank you,
18 Mr. President.
19 Obviously, I rise in support of
20 this measure. And I'm a little astonished at
21 a lot of the urban patronization that I've
22 heard with respect to this measure.

23 Clearly in New York we have no
24 ability to control the commodity price of
25 gasoline. We have no ability to control most

(518) 371-8910
1952
1 aspects of the cost of gasoline. But we do
2 have the power to control the levy, the tax
3 levy that we impose from New York State on the
4 cost of a gallon of gasoline.
5 I don't know about you; apparently
6 those folks on the other side of the aisle
7 haven't heard from their constituents with
8 regard to their concern about gas prices. But
9 I certainly have heard from my constituents
10 with respect to the price of gas. And they're
11 extraordinarily troubled. They want to know
12 what we, as state legislators, are going to do
13 about it. And I try to tell them that we
14 don't have that much control over anything
15 other than taxes.
16 And a few years ago we acted with
17 regard to capping the amount of sales tax we
18 can levy on a gallon of gasoline, and many
19 people thought that that was a great idea. A
20 lot of people on that side of the aisle
21 thought it was a terrible idea and didn't
22 think we were going to achieve the savings.
23 However, I can tell you, as someone
24 who drives down the highway on the
25 Pennsylvania border on a regular basis, it's

(518) 371-8910
1953
1 ironic that the difference between a gallon of
2 gas in Pennsylvania versus the price of a
3 gallon of gas in New York is the difference in
4 taxes between Pennsylvania and New York. And
5 that's a fact. That's not speculation. That
6 happens to me every single day as I drive
7 through my district.
8 So those who say that somehow the
9 competitive aspects of this measure are not
10 going to work are clearly deluding themselves
11 and, further, only leading speculation that
12 the real motivation behind not being in favor
13 of this measure is because you want to spend
14 the money on something else.
15 Now, my constituents want to have
16 some relief at the gas pumps. And we can do
17 that through this particular tax holiday. And
18 while some of you have indicated -- or one
19 Senator in particular, Senator Connor, has
20 indicated that it's eighth-grade economics, I
21 can tell you, let me tell you a little bit
22 about eighth-grade New York civics.
23 In New York State, believe it or
24 not, there's a phenomenon in our economy that
25 is called the tourism economy, which is only

(518) 371-8910
1954
1 slightly ranking below that of the

2 agricultural economy as being the number-one
3 economic activity in New York State.
4 And you might not think that the
5 people that work in that tourism economy
6 matter, but they sure do in my district. And
7 they are hardworking men and women every day
8 who are struggling to make a living in the
9 tourism industry, and they are extraordinarily
10 concerned and afraid as to what the cost of
11 gasoline is going to do to their economy and
12 their livelihood this summer.
13 Now, we spend, believe it or not,
14 millions and millions of dollars a year
15 promoting the tourism economy. And we now
16 have a Governor who has indicated that the "I
17 Love New York" program needs to be spruced up,
18 making changes to emphasize the "I Love New
19 York" program in upstate New York.
20 And now we have a measure here to
21 provide for some incentives for people to
22 actually utilize some of the tourism
23 attractions, visit some of them, and all we're
24 hearing is: No, no, we can't do that, because
25 we need to spend the money on something else.

(518) 371-8910
1955
1 Now, Senator Lanza pointed out very
2 effectively that this is not a lose-lose
3 revenue proposition. This has major
4 incentives brought into it, particularly as it

5 relates to the tourism economy. The amount of
6 money that we are going to incentivize people
7 to come into New York State and spend by
8 virtue of having lower taxes for once in our
9 life -- can you imagine New York State having
10 less taxes than any other state for a change?
11 I mean, what a remarkable prospect. But yet
12 we have resistance. We don't want to do that.
13 But we can get people to come to
14 New York State, save our tourism season this
15 year by having this particular measure pass so
16 that we can advertise on "I Love New York"
17 that New York really is more affordable to
18 come to.
19 Now, the environmentalists will
20 say, Well, that's a terrible idea, we want
21 everybody to walk. We don't anybody to drive.
22 And therefore, we don't want anybody to go to
23 any tourism attractions in the first place.
24 Now, that is pretty remarkable.
25 But that is one of the arguments we're hearing

(518) 371-8910
1956
1 also from your side of the aisle, and that is
2 let's use less gasoline. And while we all
3 want to conserve gasoline, I want to use more
4 gasoline if it's going to mean more tourism
5 and more economic growth in upstate New York.
6 So, ladies and gentlemen, this is
7 not perfect. Washington, you're right, has

8 not acted. But the Democrat-controlled
9 Congress hasn't acted either. They've done
10 absolutely nothing, and they've sat still. So
11 it's not just the Bush administration's fault
12 for the cost of gasoline, it's that Democrat
13 Congress.
14 And the other remarkable thing that
15 I don't hear is you have a candidate, I
16 thought, for President -- I think her name is
17 Hillary Clinton. She's also the United States
18 Senator from New York. She's calling for a
19 gas-tax holiday. Isn't that a remarkable
20 event? Having a gas tax holiday coming from
21 Senator Clinton that most of you or many of
22 you in this room support.
23 However, that's okay for her to do
24 it, but it's not okay for us to do it? I
25 mean, is there some disconnect here? I don't

(518) 371-8910
1957
1 quite understand.
2 So, ladies and gentlemen, for those
3 that have tried to advocate some help and
4 relief for upstate New York, some concern that
5 used to be a mantra of support for dealing
6 with the upstate economy, helping the upstate
7 economy -- it is astonishing to me that here
8 we have a measure that will directly help the
9 upstate economy, the upstate tourism industry,
10 the upstate tourism industry that is the

11 number-two economic engine in New York
12 State --
14 me, Senator Winner.
15 SENATOR WINNER: -- and all we're
16 doing is getting resistance.
18 Senator, excuse me.
19 Senator Adams, why do you rise?
20 SENATOR ADAMS: Would the Senator
21 yield for a question, please?
23 Senator, would you yield for a question
24 from --
25 SENATOR WINNER: Certainly.

(518) 371-8910
1958
1 Certainly.
3 Certainly he will.
4 SENATOR ADAMS: Through you,
5 Mr. President. There are two candidates in
6 the race. Could the Senator tell me what the
7 candidate leading in the race, what his
8 position is on the gas tax?
9 (Laughter.)
10 SENATOR WINNER: Senator, could
11 you repeat the question? I couldn't quite
12 hear you.

14 Senator, repeat your question.
15 SENATOR ADAMS: Yes. The Senator
16 indicated that there's a presidential
17 candidate that supports this. My question to
18 the Senator is that there are two candidates
19 in the race. The candidate that is leading in
20 the race, what is his position on this?
21 SENATOR WINNER: Is he leading in
22 the popular vote or the delegate vote or the
23 superdelegate vote? I don't know which
24 vote -- I don't know which way you're leaning
25 these days. I get confused every time --

(518) 371-8910
1959
2 Senator -- Senator, I believe he's leading in
3 both categories.
4 SENATOR ADAMS: Thank you.
5 SENATOR WINNER: You're welcome,
6 Senator.
7 So in conclusion, Mr. President --
9 you, Senator.
10 SENATOR WINNER: -- this measure
11 is clearly something that is needed in upstate
12 New York, something that was heard as a
13 clarion call for action by many on your side
14 of the aisle as well as our former Governor
15 and certainly our current Governor, who
16 believes that the upstate economy matters.

17 Here is something that is a direct
18 measure that will help the tourism industry in
19 upstate New York, will provide for some
20 relief, gives us an opportunity to market our
21 advantage, for once in our life, as far as
22 being a destination, affordable destination to
23 take advantage of our tourism destinations and
24 spend money in our upstate communities and
25 mitigate against any potential costs of this

(518) 371-8910
1960
1 measure, and provides for some needed relief
2 to the hardworking men and women who have to
3 use their cars to get to work, go to the
4 doctor, and hopefully drive to upstate
5 New York and other tourist destinations in
6 New York to take advantage of our tremendous
7 opportunities.
8 Thank you, Mr. President. I
9 support this measure.
11 you, Senator.
12 Senator Maziarz.
13 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you,
16 Senator Maziarz, on the bill.
17 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President,
18 actually when I asked permission to rise
19 today, I was going to ask the sponsor to yield

20 for two questions. And those two questions
21 were answered by Senator Winner.
22 You know, I think we talked about
23 bipartisanship. I think Senator Klein and
24 Senator Connor both mentioned about the
25 administration in the White House. I think

(518) 371-8910
1961
1 Senator Winner did a very good job of pointing
2 out how it's not just the administration in
3 the White House; you know, that both houses of
4 Congress are controlled by one political
5 party, and there never has been a same-as bill
6 that went to the White House that the
7 President could have signed to immediately
8 give the impact, the price-reduction impact
9 that this bill would do.
10 My other question was going to
11 revolve around the junior U.S. Senator from
12 the State of New York. Senator Krueger talked
13 about bipartisan support for this legislation.
14 And I know that I asked Senator
15 Lanza privately if he had spoken recently or
16 even seen in New York recently the junior
17 United States Senator from the State of
18 New York. Of course we all know, particularly
19 Senator Perkins knows that she hasn't spent
20 much time here lately. She's had other
21 issues. But through press reports we know
22 that the junior Senator supports a bill

23 identical to this bill, almost, on the federal
24 level, to lower it there.
25 This is about lowering the cost to

(518) 371-8910
1962
1 working people in Buffalo and Niagara Falls
2 and Rochester and Syracuse and Albany and
3 across the state, New York City and Long
4 Island, everywhere. This would give immediate
5 relief.
6 Senator Duane asked about hearings.
7 You know, I don't know what we need -- I held
8 three hearings on this particular issue, Tom.
9 They were all at Wilson Farms Convenience
10 Store on the corner of Walck Road and Nash
11 Road in the City of North Tonawanda. And I
12 can tell you, there were environmentalists
13 there, there were hunters there, there were
14 senior citizens, there were young people.
15 And across the board, Tom, at those
16 hearings, they want gas tax relief. They want
17 the price of their gasoline to come down.
18 I venture to say, as we go forward,
19 that the two candidates for president, John
20 McCain and one other one, will probably see
21 the light on this particular issue and they'll
22 all be talking about the high cost of
23 gasoline. And maybe then the federal
24 government will act on it. But until that
25 time comes, I think this is a good move, it's

(518) 371-8910
1963
1 an immediate move to provide tax relief.
2 Thank you, Mr. President. I'm glad
3 I didn't have to ask Senator Lanza those
4 questions. Thank you.
6 you, Senator Maziarz.
7 Senator Hassell-Thompson.
8 SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON: Thank
9 you, Mr. President. On the bill.
11 Senator Hassell-Thompson, on the bill.
12 SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON: I had
13 some questions too, but I don't think that my
14 questions will be answered, so I'll just speak
15 on the bill.
16 Because I think that one of the
17 things that's clear is that it's right for us
18 to be responsive to our hard-pressed
19 New Yorkers, particularly our workers, our
20 farmers, small business owners, all of those
21 whose wages and profits are being eaten up by
22 high gas prices.
23 But one of the problems is -- and
24 this is where the sticky wicket is for me --
25 as long as local governments have the option

(518) 371-8910
1964
1 of waiving local sales tax, and there's no

2 guarantee that this is going to go into the
3 pockets of these individuals, these
4 families --
6 me, Senator.
7 Senator Lanza, why do you rise?
8 SENATOR LANZA: Would my
9 colleague yield for a question?
11 Senator, would you yield for a question?
12 SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON:
13 Certainly, Senator Lanza.
15 Senator yields.
16 SENATOR LANZA: Through you,
17 Mr. President.
18 Senator, it seemed as though you
19 had an interest in asking questions but
20 believed that you would not receive answers.
21 I want to assure you, Senator, we
22 may have differences of opinion on this and
23 other issues, but I will always do my best to
24 work with my colleagues, whether Republican or
25 Democrat, to answer any concern that you might

(518) 371-8910
1965
1 have.
2 So my question to you is, do you
3 have questions for me?
4 SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON: Yes, I

5 do. I have one question.
6 SENATOR LANZA: If so -- if so,
7 I'd love to answer them.
8 SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON: Okay.
9 Do you --
11 Senator, do you yield now for a question that
12 you asked for?
14 (Laughter.)
16 Senator, he yields.
18 you, Mr. President. Through you.
19 Senator Lanza, the one question
20 that I really have is that if you want to work
21 with us, pull the bill. Are you willing to
22 pull the bill?
24 Senator Lanza.

(518) 371-8910
1966
1 Mr. President, absolutely not. The people
2 cannot wait.
3 This is an answer to your question.
4 Will I pull --
5 SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON: You
6 answered my question.
7 SENATOR LANZA: I will not,

8 because the people need results. They need
9 relief. And they need it now. They can't
10 wait for us to keep talking about it.
11 We can keep doing that. We will
12 keep talking about this and keep finding
13 better ways to go even further. But right
14 now, this is what we can do now that will
15 deliver real results and real relief to
16 people.
17 So, Mr. President, I will not pull
18 this bill because the people back home are
19 counting on us, I believe, to pass this
20 legislation and get it chaptered.
22 you, Senator.
24 you, Mr. President. Let me continue. And now
25 you can understand why I didn't ask the

(518) 371-8910
1967
1 question.
2 My concern is the same as yours, is
3 that the people in our communities need
4 relief. But there is nothing, Senator Lanza,
5 in this bill that guarantees that that money
6 savings is going to go into the pockets.
7 Because you have given local government the
8 opportunity and the authority to waive, you
9 cannot guarantee that any of the workers that
10 we're concerned about, any of the farmers that

11 we're concerned about, that there's a
12 guarantee that they're going to receive these
13 benefits.
14 When we did the last tax savings,
15 the county executive in my county refused to
16 pass that savings on to the consumer. He said
17 that it was in his purview to do with tax
18 savings what he chose, and it went into the
19 general fund. We never saw it.
20 In New York City, each of the
21 counties in New York City experienced the same
22 thing. Bloomberg did not pass that savings on
23 to the counties and to the communities.
24 There is nothing in this bill that
25 tells me that if I were to go back home and

(518) 371-8910
1968
1 say that I voted for this bill, that they
2 could guarantee that whatever the savings --
3 whether it's $30, whether it's $50, whatever
4 that savings -- and $50 is significant --
5 Senator Lanza? Fifty dollars is significant
6 in my community.
7 I represent a part of Westchester,
8 but I certainly don't represent the most
9 wealthy part of Westchester. I represent the
10 working class and poor people who are on
11 welfare. And those who do have cars and do
12 have to use their cars for work, $50 or $25 a
13 week makes the difference. It makes a

14 difference to me, so I know it makes a
15 difference to them.
16 So please do not believe that we
17 are ignoring that. What we're concerned about
18 is what is it that this bill will do that will
19 guarantee that what you say will happen, will
20 happen. Because I can't go home and lie to
21 the people in my district and say: You're
22 going to get this savings, I know you are.
23 This is not like the bogus check that's
24 supposed to come from Washington that they
25 never got. There are people who are still

(518) 371-8910
1969
1 waiting for STAR that they never got.
2 Every time we promise something and
3 we cannot deliver it, that makes my polls go
4 down. And it impugns my integrity. I cannot
5 vote for a bill that does not help me to
6 ensure that the people in my district are
7 going to benefit the way we say.
8 And it isn't about oil prices and
9 who's at fault and who's responsible. This
10 bill is supposed to be an action that we as
11 state legislators are taking in order to give
12 relief to the people in our communities. And
13 unless there is a demonstration to me that
14 that relief is coming, then I cannot vote for
15 this bill.

18 you, Senator.
19 Senator Craig Johnson.
20 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Thank
21 you, Mr. President. On the bill.
23 Senator Johnson, on the bill.
24 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Thank
25 you, Senator Lanza, for introducing what I

(518) 371-8910
1970
1 believe is a very important piece of
2 legislation. I see this as reasonable people
3 with reasonable positions can differ.
4 The fact is is that our residents
5 all across the state, and in particular
6 Long Island, are hurting right now. You can
7 drive from the Queens-Nassau border all the
8 way out to the Hamptons, from my district out
9 to Senator LaValle's and Senator Trunzo's
10 district, and see the rising gas prices even
11 at the pump from going west to east.
12 And there's no doubt that
13 legislation that comes before us sometimes has
14 imperfections. And obviously, in hearing the
15 debate, my colleagues have some real concerns
16 about whether or not there's going to be a
17 real, tangible savings put into the wallets of
18 our consumers with respect to this
19 legislation.
20 Now, what's interesting is Senator
21 Clinton's, Hillary Clinton's plan was
22 referenced in this debate. And what's
23 important to recognize, and an important
24 component -- and even members of my own party
25 differ on whether or not it's a valuable

(518) 371-8910
1971
1 plan -- is that she wants the oil companies to
2 cover the freight when it comes to the tax.
3 Same oil companies making record profits, take
4 a little bit out of their pocket to help out
5 our residents across the nation.
6 There's nothing in this legislation
7 that would address that. And maybe when it
8 passes this house, and I'm hopeful it passes
9 this house, that we can go back and address
10 that issue.
11 Maybe we can go back and address
12 the issue of criminal price gouging. Because
13 watch the news today, go home when we go home
14 and watch the news tonight. No doubt on one
15 of the major news channels someone will talk
16 about gas hitting $5 a gallon this summer. No
17 doubt someone will talk about it maybe hitting
18 $6 a gallon. Somehow we have to address the
19 gouging issue.
20 Because my concern is that
21 notwithstanding the savings we put back to our
22 residents, what in this bill stops a

23 wholesaler or a gas company from simply
24 marking up the price? That's something we
25 should probably address going forward after

(518) 371-8910
1972
1 today.
2 But the fact is is that our
3 residents -- and you and I listen to them
4 every day, and we hear from them every day --
5 need action now. They need some form of
6 relief now. They don't need to hear the
7 talking.
8 And quite frankly, what we also
9 need to see is some action from the Assembly
10 side on this legislation. And obviously I
11 will speak to my colleagues in the Assembly,
12 just like I hope my colleagues in the majority
13 do the same thing. Because it's not about
14 finger-pointing.
15 And I agree with you, Senator
16 Lanza, the finger-pointing has to stop,
17 because that doesn't help our constituents.
18 They do not want us up here to finger-point.
19 They want us to help them.
20 And so if it's a choice between a
21 bill that has some flaws or a choice between
22 doing something for our residents, I'll do
23 something that helps our residents.
24 I appreciate the efforts, and this
25 is a good bill. And I'll work with you,

(518) 371-8910
1973
1 Senator Lanza, to strengthen the bill. I
2 think we need to, in a bipartisan manner,
3 Democrats and Republicans working together to
4 help improve the lives of our residents.
5 So when it comes time to vote,
6 Mr. President, I will be voting in the
7 affirmative and supporting this piece of
8 legislation. Thank you very much.
10 you, Senator.
11 Senator Diaz.
12 SENATOR DIAZ: Thank you,
15 Senator Diaz, on the bill.
16 SENATOR DIAZ: I am very glad to
17 hear my Democratic colleague, the great
18 Senator from Long Island, Craig Johnson,
19 indicating his intention of supporting this
20 bill.
21 That proves something. That proves
22 that this is not Republican against Democrat.
23 I'm a Democrat. I'm just going to repeat
24 myself. You heard the democratic Senator from
25 Long Island, Craig Johnson, expressing his

(518) 371-8910
1974
1 support of the bill.

2 This is one of those pieces of
3 legislation that we should not be looking --
4 that it should not be looked at as Democrat or
5 Republican, but looked at as an independent.
6 We should know that the people in
7 the 32nd District in the Bronx, which I
8 represent, every time that they go to buy
9 gasoline, they're paying taxes not one, not
10 two different taxes, not three -- four, four
11 different taxes. The people in the Bronx,
12 which I represent, they pay, for every gallon
13 of gas, for every gallon of gas that they
14 purchase, they pay 16 cents on something
15 called state petroleum business tax. State
16 petroleum business tax, 16 cents per gallon.
17 They pay 8 cents per gallon for something
18 called state sales tax. And they pay 8 cents
19 a gallon for another tax called state motor
20 fuel excise tax. And then they pay 14 cents
21 per gallon for the local tax.
22 So they pay 32 cents per gallon
23 throughout the state. And the people in my
24 district pay 14 cents extra per gallon, which
25 would be 56 cents per gallon for the people

(518) 371-8910
1975
1 that I represent.
2 You know, if we are going to blame
3 and play the blame game, we have plenty to go
4 around, plenty to blame. We could be here the

5 whole summer blaming Bush, Cheney and the
6 Republicans. And there is plenty there to
7 blame Bush, to blame Cheney, and to blame the
8 Republicans for the increase in the oil.
9 But, ladies and gentlemen, we could
10 also blame the democratic Congress of America,
11 the Senate, the U.S. Senate controlled by
12 Democrats, and the U.S. House of
13 Representatives controlled by Democrats. So
14 we want to blame? We could blame Cheney, Bush
15 and the Republicans, or we could blame the
16 Democrats, because they've got the power to do
17 something and they haven't done it either.
18 So if we're going to play the blame
19 game, Cheney, Bush? Nah. The Democrats, the
20 Senate and the Congress? They both are to
21 blame.
22 But also we could keep blaming. We
23 could keep playing the blame game and we could
24 blame the greediness of the oil companies.
25 They make billions of dollars in profit while

(518) 371-8910
1976
1 the people suffer. So, see, we could blame
2 Bush, Cheney, the Republicans? Nah. We could
3 blame the Democrats in the Congress, the
4 Senate and the House of Representatives, even
5 though we have, in New York, the people that
6 are the chairman of the Ways and Means
7 Committee and the one powerful committee

8 that's -- so we could have blame. We could
9 blame the oil companies, they're greedy.
10 They're greedy, greedy, greedy, greedy.
11 Billions of dollars in profit while the people
12 suffer.
13 Or, if we don't want to blame Bush
14 and Cheney and the Republicans, if we don't
15 want to blame the Democrats, the Democratic
16 Congress, we don't want to blame the oil
17 companies, we could blame the
18 environmentalists. We all know that there is
19 enough oil here in the nation, enough oil so
20 we could end the dependency on foreign oil.
21 So we got enough oil here, but the
22 environmentalists don't allow the federal
23 government to drill in the places where we got
24 oil.
25 So if you don't want to blame Bush,

(518) 371-8910
1977
1 Cheney, you don't want to blame the Democratic
2 Congress, you don't want to blame the
3 greediness of the oil companies, and you don't
4 want to blame the environmentalists, then we
5 could blame the fiscal analysis. The money
6 doesn't go to the people that are supposed to
7 get the money. I'm going to tell you that the
8 people in the Bronx, they pay $4 to cross the
9 Washington Bridge, $4, to fill the tanks.
10 Because there, they save, because the taxes

11 there in gas are lower. People pay the toll,
12 $4, go there, fill up the tank and they're
13 still saving money.
14 So when we say in the fiscal
15 analysis people won't get the money, I don't
16 know what we're talking about. Because we pay
17 less taxes and people go and fill the tanks,
18 that's money that we pay.
19 But if we don't want to blame Bush,
20 Cheney, and the Republicans, and we don't want
21 to blame the Democratic Congress and the
22 New York State delegation in Congress, and we
23 don't want to blame the greediness of the oil
24 companies, and we don't want to blame the
25 environmentalists for not allowing us to drill

(518) 371-8910
1978
1 and get the oil that we need, and we don't
2 want to blame the fiscal analysis, then we
3 could blame you guys for not consulting us and
4 not allowing us to be part of this thing.
5 So a lot of things to blame. We
6 could blame -- we could be here blaming and
7 blaming and blaming and blaming and blaming.
8 And as I said before, this is not a piece of
9 legislation that we have to be looking at as a
10 Republican, as a Democrat, or as independent.
11 We have to be looking at this as what is best
12 for the worker of New York State, what is best
13 for the workers. We have to be looking at

14 this piece of legislation for what is best for
15 the families of the State of New York.
16 We have to be looking at this piece
17 of legislation of what is best for the
18 middle-class New Yorkers who are watching,
19 watching closely for government action. We
20 have to look at this piece of legislation of
21 what is best for the small business owner
22 whose wages and profits are being eaten up by
23 the high price of gas.
24 We have to be looking to this piece
25 of legislation of what is best for the

(518) 371-8910
1979
1 lower-wage workers who are now paying up to a
2 quarter of their income for gas for get to
3 work. We have to be looking at this piece of
4 legislation for what is best for those
5 New Yorkers who are on the brink between work
6 and welfare due to the high price of gas.
7 So, ladies and gentlemen, I'm not
8 going to fall into a blame game. I'm not
9 going to blame Bush and Cheney, even though I
10 know there is a lot of things to blame. I'm
11 not even going to blame my party, my
12 Democratic Party. I'm a member of the
13 Democratic conference that controls the
14 Congress and the U.S. Senate, and they have
15 the power to do something, but they are not
16 doing it.
17 I'm not even going to blame the
18 greediness of the oil companies, because I'm a
19 State Senator. I'm a State Senator. I can do
20 nothing with the prices of oil. I cannot do
21 nothing for stopping Bush from doing whatever
22 he wants to do. And I cannot do nothing in
23 Congress. I'm not a Congressperson.
25 environmentalists, because they want to

(518) 371-8910
1980
1 protect animals and the environment. In order
2 to protect those animals and the environment,
3 they are not allowing people to drill. So by
4 not allowing us to drill, we are depending on
5 foreign oil. But we could drop that. We
6 could drop the dependency on foreign oil if we
7 drill here in America.
9 fiscal analysis. I'm not even going to blame
10 anything. I'm just going to say, Senator
11 Lanza, I'm going to join my colleague from
12 Long Island, the great Senator from Long
13 Island, Craig Johnson, a Democrat like me, to
14 join you and to show and to send a message
15 that this is not a Republican or a Democrat,
16 this is something that is going to bring some
17 kind of relief to the people of New York.
18 I do like you, Senator Lanza, I go
19 to New Jersey. I do like you, I go to New

20 Jersey, fill up my tank, and I save -- I save,
21 coming up, about $6 coming up. Now when I
22 leave today, I'm going to go to New Jersey,
23 fill the tank again, and I save another $6.
24 So I'm with you. And I'm getting
25 the money. The money -- I am getting the

(518) 371-8910
1981
1 money. I am -- that savings is coming to my
2 pocket. So when people say how we're going to
3 be sure that the money goes to the consumer,
4 I'm telling you, I'm proof of that every week
5 when I come here.
6 So, ladies and gentlemen, I am
7 voting, I am -- I intend -- no, no, can I vote
8 now? I'm voting yes. Proudly yes. Because
9 the people of the 32nd Senatorial District in
10 Bronx County deserve -- taxi drivers -- taxi
11 drivers, bodegueros, senior citizens, nurses
12 doctors, police officers, firemen, my wife,
13 us. We all want to be benefitting from this
14 piece of legislation that is bipartisan here,
15 okay, because Craig Johnson and me are with
16 you guys.
19 you, Senator.
20 Senator LaValle.
21 SENATOR LaVALLE: Thank you,
22 Mr. President. I'm going to be very brief,

23 because a lot has been said on this bill.
24 But one of the things -- I've heard
25 a couple of things that have kind of inspired

(518) 371-8910
1982
1 me to get up and speak. Because when I sit
2 here and I listen to colleagues say this bill
3 is about making constituents happy, making
4 constituents happy, that comment is far from
5 what is happening in my Senate district. And
6 I can only speak about my Senate district.
7 People always have the image that
8 people live on Long Island, they're wealthy.
9 When you go back and you talk to people, all
10 different levels, and they start telling you
11 that putting food on the table is becoming a
12 problem, it's becoming a challenge. And you
13 listen to people and they tell you that they
14 bought Brand X -- they bought Cheerios for
15 $4.35; they can't afford that. They're buying
16 the Price Chopper brand or Waldbaum's or Stop
17 & Shop. Instead of having chopped meat once a
18 week, it's now three times a week.
19 I made a speech and I talked about
20 the gas tax and how this would at least allow
21 people during the summer months to take a
22 holiday. You know, you don't have to leave
23 Long Island in the summertime. You can -- if
24 you live in Port Jefferson, you can go out to
25 Montauk, you can go out to Greenport. You can

(518) 371-8910
1983
1 stay on the island if you wanted to. Great
2 beaches, et cetera.
3 I had people tell me: "Senator --
4 vacation? There will be no vacation. I can't
5 put food on the table. I can't put food on
6 the table."
7 Senator Lanza was right. People
8 send us here and we deal and have, at critical
9 times, in a bipartisan way with issues. But
10 people need results. They don't need "we
11 could have," "we should have." We don't need
12 that.
13 It is true there should be
14 leadership from Congress. They didn't do
15 anything on the immigration issue. They are
16 not going to do anything on this issue. Thank
17 God we have a federalist system where we as
18 the states can take leadership on issues.
19 Senator Lanza has gone out and
20 taken leadership on this issue, and he's
21 right. It's the right time to do this.
22 People need help now.
23 And I know that I'm not saying
24 anything that you in your own districts don't
25 know. Whether it's in the North Country or

(518) 371-8910
1984
1 Western New York or Central New York or

2 New York City, people are feeling this economy
3 and gas and the way they heat their homes and
4 the cost of utilities and the cost of property
5 taxes. They are being crushed. And any
6 relief that we can give them on any one of
7 these areas, we need to do it now before this
8 session is over.
11 you, Senator.
12 Senator Schneiderman.
13 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you,
14 Mr. President.
15 I must say I have very high regard
16 for my colleagues and the people who serve in
17 this house on both sides of the aisle. But I
18 have to say that today I view as a really poor
19 example of governing.
20 We are talking about serious
21 issues, the fact that people need help. We
22 are in the worst economic crisis in this state
23 since the 1970s. People need results. That's
24 not what this debate is about. That's not
25 what this bill is about. This bill is about

(518) 371-8910
1985
1 pandering and hypocrisy.
2 And as long as we're talking about
3 pollution, I tell you, Mr. President, I feel
4 like the rank stench of pandering is polluting

5 the air of the Senate today.
6 What's the question before us? Is
7 this bill good for the working people of this
8 state or bad for the working people of this
9 state? That's a legitimate question.
10 Now, what do we know about this
11 legislation? We know that, contrary to the
12 sponsor's statement, there is no price-gouging
13 provision. We know that there is no mechanism
14 to see that any of the $629 million this bill
15 will take away from the General Fund of the
16 State of New York will go to consumers, much
17 less to the poor and working people who need
18 the relief.
19 We know, in spite of the sponsor's
20 extraordinary statement that he doesn't
21 believe that oil companies ever engage in
22 price gouging -- which, you know, having a
23 passing knowledge of the history of that
24 industry, is demonstrably false -- in spite of
25 his statement, we know that some of the

(518) 371-8910
1986
1 $629 million that we are taking from the
2 General Fund will stick to the fingers of the
3 oil companies, some of it will stick to the
4 fingers of the wholesalers, some of it will go
5 to people who are very well-to-do, who are
6 driving anyway.
7 So how much of this $629 million

8 that we need badly for programs for poor and
9 working people will go to those poor and
10 working people? Not much. And there is no
11 way to predict that any amount will actually
12 go to the people most in need.
13 So let's look at the hypocrisy.
14 Let's look at the hypocrisy here. My
15 colleagues on the other side of the aisle --
16 during the Pataki-Bruno era, the New York
17 State leadership on the other side of the
18 aisle presided over the largest redistribution
19 of wealth from poor and working people to the
20 wealthy we've ever seen in the State of
21 New York.
22 You like to pretend that you are
23 tax-cutters, but the size of our state and
24 local governments virtually doubled during the
25 Pataki-Bruno era, and the tax burden increased

(518) 371-8910
1987
1 to pay for it.
2 The poor and working people of this
3 state need the public services that we provide
4 for, but they are paying a greater and greater
5 cost, they're paying a greater and greater
6 share.
7 You know where that $629 million is
8 coming from that you're ripping out of the
9 state General Fund today? It's coming from
10 the poor and working people of this state.

11 How is it, after the Pataki-Bruno
12 era, that today in the Empire State the
13 poorest 50 percent of New Yorkers, the people
14 most in need, pay almost 12 percent of their
15 income in state and local taxes while the
16 richest 1 percent pay 6.5 percent of their
17 income in state and local taxes?
18 You know who's being hurt here
19 during the Pataki-Bruno era? It is the poor
20 and working people of the state. We're
21 putting the burden on them. And yet we pose
22 as tax-cutters with these gimmicks, these
23 rebates, these schemes, similar to the scheme
24 today. But the amount of money you cut in
25 income taxes for the wealthy far outweighs

(518) 371-8910
1988
1 anything you do for the poor and working
2 people of this state.
3 So now you're showing up here
4 saying, Well, we are all about putting money
5 in the pockets of working people. History
6 tells us otherwise. The bottom line does not
7 lie.
8 What does this mean to rip
9 $629 million out of the General Fund? Who's
10 going to pay for it? Poor and working people.
11 What programs will be cut? Programs for poor
12 and working people.
13 This is a one-house bill, not just

14 opposed by the leadership in the Assembly, who
15 have the integrity to step up to this, not
16 just opposed by the Governor, who has the
17 integrity to step up to this; it is opposed by
18 every economist in the country.
19 When they asked Senator Clinton --
20 to our great shame, she has been on the wrong
21 side of this issue at the federal level.
22 Everyone's entitled to make mistakes. When
23 they asked her to name one economist who
24 supports this notion, she could only cite her
25 husband. Who as far as I know, he's many

(518) 371-8910
1989
1 things, but he's not an economist.
2 But this is not what's happening
3 here today. We're not passing money along to
4 people. We're not doing anything. This is a
5 one-house bill that is opposed by everyone on
6 every side of the aisle who is honest.
7 Let me cite to you a statement from
8 a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute,
9 right-wing think tank. Max Schulz said: "It
10 is bad policy and political gimmickry. If you
11 want to deliver relief to folks, you have to
12 do more than just a little holiday for the gas
13 tax, you have to address what is driving the
14 price of crude oil."
15 From the left, a former
16 undersecretary of commerce in the Clinton

17 administration, Robert Shapiro, said: "It is
18 utterly misguided, both environmentally and
19 economically. Environmentally it does actual
20 harm, since it reduces the price of producing
21 greenhouse gases, and economically it's
22 trivial or worse. By reducing the price of
23 driving, it encourages more of it, thereby
24 increasing demand for gasoline, which
25 inevitably pushes the price back up."

(518) 371-8910
1990
1 Well, what we're doing today is
2 worse than what they were trying to do at the
3 federal level. Because unlike the feds, we
4 have to balance our budget. So what you are
5 voting for if you vote for this bill today and
6 this pretense and this sham that all of a
7 sudden the Republican Party is all about
8 putting money back in the pockets of working
9 people, what you're doing is ripping
10 $629 million we don't have out of the General
11 Fund.
12 And we know, from your record and
13 from history, the people who will pay, both in
14 taxes and in program cuts, are the poor and
15 working people of this state.
16 Look at the history, step up to it
17 honestly. I'm going to vote against this
18 bill. But I really think that the biggest
19 disgrace here today is that we're not having

20 an honest debate about targeting money to the
21 people who need it most.
22 Senator Klein's proposal for a
23 targeted rebate actually does get the money to
24 the people who need it. But has that been
25 under consideration? No. Maybe because we

(518) 371-8910
1991
1 don't have hearings, you don't invite us into
2 the discussion. And with the same way that
3 the majority here exercises this absolute
4 power, this dictatorial control over what
5 comes to the floor, you are serving your
6 agenda, which is not the agenda of the working
7 people.
8 I object to anyone on the other
9 side of the aisle, after the record of the
10 Pataki-Bruno era, pretending that you are
11 about putting money in the pockets of working
12 people. That is a value of our conference.
13 That is a value embodied by Malcolm Smith.
14 That is our value. We are going to step to
15 that value. We will have our own proposals.
16 I doubt they will see the light of day in this
17 house.
18 In the meantime, until we are able
19 to bring our proposals to the floor and
20 actually deliver for poor and working people,
21 I'm voting no, Mr. President.

23 you, Senator Schneiderman.
24 Senator Nozzolio.
25 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President,

(518) 371-8910
1992
1 on the bill.
3 Senator Nozzolio, on the bill.
4 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President
5 and my colleagues, as many of us do, I often
6 speak to high school and junior high school
7 classes like the one visiting me today from
8 Marion Central School in Wayne County.
9 And they ask me: What should I
10 study to be involved in the political issues
11 of the day? Should I study history? Should I
12 study political science? How do I get
13 involved in government? What should I do to
14 focus my attention on participating in my
15 government?
16 My suggestion to them is there are
17 two subjects you should focus on. The first
18 is English; the second is economics. And,
19 frankly, the rhetoric that I heard discussed
20 today by the members of this house shows why
21 my advice to those students is absolutely on
22 the mark.
23 I heard from Senator Krueger,
24 Senator Connor, and my friend Senator
25 Schneiderman discuss how they believe, in

(518) 371-8910
1993
1 their world, the economists would oppose us in
2 Senator Lanza's tremendous attempt to
3 eliminate the gas tax in New York State for a
4 short period of time. We heard those
5 economists quoted about their concerns for
6 global warming, the lack of a national energy
7 policy, the need for a reduced consumption of
8 petroleum products worldwide.
9 I say to those Nobel laureates, you
10 can give us all the advice you want. But the
11 working people in Wayne County, the farmers
12 who drive the tractors, the people who have to
13 travel 12 miles, 14 miles round trip to get a
14 loaf of bread or a quart of milk, the people
15 who need to commute to their jobs in Rochester
16 or Syracuse, entailing a 60-mile per day, at
17 least, commute to work -- those are the people
18 who are going to be helped by this bill.
19 And I do not care about the
20 New York Times and their focus on how the
21 economy of New York City is not going to be
22 helped by this bill. Frankly, this bill helps
23 the working people of upstate New York.
24 And I thought earlier this year the
25 issue of the day was how everyone was going to

(518) 371-8910
1994
1 unite to help the upstate economy. Well,

2 Senator Lanza certainly has helped the entire
3 state's economy by this measure. This measure
4 that will enhance many economic enterprises
5 during the course of the suspension of the
6 gasoline tax.
7 It was mentioned that the
8 number-one industry in New York State is
9 agriculture. Agriculture has been devastated
10 by the rising cost of petroleum products. The
11 number-two industry in New York State is
12 tourism. And all of our regions that depend
13 on tourism -- and I represent most of the
14 beautiful Finger Lakes region -- that region
15 is going to be significantly hurt if motorists
16 are impeded to travel to the Finger Lakes,
17 enjoying the great sights and venues of the
18 Finger Lakes if the gas tax is so -- if the
19 gasoline costs are so oppressive.
20 I congratulate Senator Lanza for
21 his courage, for his bringing this measure to
22 the floor. I believe strongly that all the
23 transactions that will not occur because of
24 the oppressive cost of gasoline are going to
25 be the real fiscal impact of us not doing this

(518) 371-8910
1995
1 bill. In other words, the fiscal impact that
2 Senator Lanza quoted is far, far smaller than
3 the total fiscal impact of the rising costs of
4 gasoline on our economy.

5 We need to do all we possibly can.
6 And, Mr. President, that's why I strongly
7 support this measure.
9 you, Senator.
10 Senator Marcellino.
11 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr.
12 President, I'll explain my vote.
14 Senator Stavisky.
15 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you,
16 Mr. President.
17 Reducing the cost of gas is a very
18 appealing idea. People need some relief from
19 the high cost of living. Suddenly we're
20 hearing people talk about not being able to
21 afford putting food on their table. We hear
22 that food pantries are running out of food.
23 So reducing the gas tax to help our
24 constituents is extremely important. People
25 need help.

(518) 371-8910
1996
1 We have heard today about the gas
2 tax and the sales tax, particularly because
3 the gas tax and the sales tax are not based
4 upon ability to pay. They are regressive
5 taxes affecting the middle class and the lower
6 middle class disproportionately to people for
7 whom another 10- or 20-cent or 50-cent per

8 gallon gas fee would be less significant.
9 But there's a difference here.
10 We've been hearing about eighth-grade
11 economics, and we've been hearing about the
12 fact that economists are opposing this type of
13 bill. The tax on clothing is quite different
14 than the tax on gasoline. We can always
15 produce more clothing, but we can't produce
16 more gasoline.
17 And as the cost of gas is going to
18 obviously go up in the summer because the
19 demand will rise, we can't increase
20 production, because the refineries are
21 producing about as much as they can produce.
22 And reducing the state gasoline tax will
23 presumably increase the demand. And the
24 supply just can't keep up with the demand and
25 the price, I'm afraid, is going to go up even

(518) 371-8910
1997
1 higher.
2 So that's the first point in terms
3 of the economy. We want to be able to do
4 something to help the consumer, there's no
5 question about that.
6 There are three answers that we
7 really haven't been able to address. For the
8 first one, the 600-plus-million-dollar eficit
9 that's going to be created by the passage of
10 this legislation. There's going to be a hole

11 in the budget.
12 Secondly, the question of price
13 gouging. There is the danger -- and this bill
14 does nothing to protect the consumer from
15 price gouging.
16 And lastly, if I thought that the
17 savings would be passed on to the consumer, I
18 would vote for this bill. I would vote for
19 this bill if the consumer were going to
20 benefit. But I haven't seen anything that
21 tells me that the savings are not going to be
22 consumed by the oil companies, the refineries,
23 the middleman -- or middlewoman -- the
24 wholesaler or the local owner of the service
25 station.

(518) 371-8910
1998
1 The New York Times had a very
2 interesting article, I think it was yesterday,
3 and it says: "Since 2000, four states have
4 enacted gas tax holidays: Florida, Georgia,
5 Illinois and Indiana. In general, retailers
6 did not pass on all of the intended savings."
7 And that's what bothers me,
8 Mr. President, because I don't think we need
9 to enrich the oil companies any further. And
10 for that reason, I think this bill should not
11 be passed.
12 Thank you.

14 you, Senator.
15 Senator Parker.
16 SENATOR PARKER: Mr. President,
17 on the bill.
19 bill.
20 SENATOR PARKER: First, let me
21 commend Senator Lanza for his hard work on
22 this issue. This is an important issue. I
23 know that he cares about the people in this
24 state and the people in his district. You
25 know, we're all, in our districts, under

(518) 371-8910
1999
1 pressure to respond to this issue.
2 And, you know, the problem is --
3 this is the right issue. The problem is this
4 does not take us nearly as far as we need to
5 go, unfortunately. I too would like to
6 relieve my constituents, the hardworking
7 families in my district who, you know,
8 oftentimes, like Senator Lanza's families,
9 oftentimes have to use their vehicles to get
10 back and forth to work or to use their
11 vehicles in the commission of their work. But
12 this bill does not take us where we need to
13 go.
14 There's been a lot said about
15 making our constituencies happy. And we as
16 legislators essentially have, you know, two

17 roles. And the question is, what are you
18 going to be today? Are you going to simply be
19 a representative that listens to what the
20 populace and what the polls are saying, or are
21 you going to be a leader?
22 Are you going to be a
23 representative, or are you going to simply,
24 you know, just do what you're told to do and
25 let people pull -- and not even people,

(518) 371-8910
2000
1 polls -- pull your strings and tell you how to
2 move your mouth and how to move your feet? Or
3 are we really going to be leaders?
4 And what leaders do different than
5 simply being a representative is that leaders
6 lead. Managers do things right; leaders do
7 the right things.
8 And this is not the right thing.
9 The right thing to do is at a time when we
10 know that fossil fuels are destroying our
11 economy and the fact that we are going into an
12 economic spiral because of energy costs, the
13 thing that leaders do is chart a new
14 direction.
15 So as the ranking member on the
16 Energy and Telecommunications Committee, and
17 as the chair of the Democratic Task Force on
18 Alternative Energy Futures, what I would
19 suggest as a leader would be now is the exact

20 time -- instead of putting, you know, a hole
21 in our General Fund of over $600 million, now
22 is the time to be investing in NYSERDA and
23 investing in alternative energy products.
24 Now is the time to pass, you know,
25 one of my bills that would in fact provide

(518) 371-8910
2001
1 alternative energy along the Thruway, so that
2 we can encourage people to buy alternative
3 energy vehicles.
4 I would suggest that as leaders we,
5 you know, bring forward and pass and encourage
6 Dean Skelos's bill that in fact continues to
7 provide a tax incentive for people to buy
8 hybrid vehicles. Right? Those are the kind
9 of things that we ought to be doing now at
10 this critical thing.
11 But pandering to polls and
12 pandering, you know, to the editorial boards
13 is not exactly what leaders ought to be doing
14 now.
15 This is the right issue. This is
16 the right time. But this bill here is the
17 wrong solution. And so I'll be voting no.
18 I encourage my colleagues on both
19 sides of the aisle to think about this, think
20 about the legacy that you're going to be
21 leaving your children and your grandchildren.
22 Do you want to in fact leave them a legacy to

23 say that at the critical time in history that
24 you pandered to the polls instead of making
25 sure that they had a viable future and made

(518) 371-8910
2002
1 sure that alternative energy was in fact part
2 of that new future that they have?
3 Thank you.
5 you, Senator.
6 Senator Aubertine.
7 SENATOR AUBERTINE: Thank you,
8 Mr. President.
9 I certainly intend to support this
10 particular piece of legislation. However, I
11 do have a couple of concerns. And if the
12 sponsor would yield just to address those
13 concerns, if he might.
17 Mr. President.
19 Senator yields.
21 Senator. Thank you, Mr. President.
22 A couple of the questions that I
23 have on this bill. As you're no doubt aware,
24 farm use of diesel fuel is not taxed. In
25 fact, it's dyed, the fuel is, when it's

(518) 371-8910
2003
1 delivered, so that it's not used commercially.
2 Are you aware of that?
3 SENATOR LANZA: I'm sorry. Mr.
4 President, through you, what is not used
5 commercially?
6 SENATOR AUBERTINE: Diesel fuel
7 on farms. For tractors. On-farm use.
8 SENATOR LANZA: They don't use
9 diesel fuel? I'll take your word for it.
11 Senator, would you restate your question to
12 the sponsor?
13 SENATOR AUBERTINE: My question
14 is this. In light of the fact that diesel
15 fuel that's used for agricultural purposes is
16 untaxed -- now, the last diesel fuel that I
17 bought on my farm recently was $3.86. It's
18 untaxed. Now, the tax is 32 cents; correct?
19 Well, if we add that, it's $4.18. Okay?
20 The average price for fuel,
21 according to all the numbers that I have, is
22 $4.58. Now, if you take the average price for
23 fuel, subtract the fuel, the pure cost of fuel
24 plus the tax, the $4.18, you've got 40 cents.
25 My question to you is this. That

(518) 371-8910
2004
1 40 cents, nobody seems to know where it is.

2 Would the gouging language in this legislation
3 address that 40 cents?
5 you know, I'm no expert when it comes to the
6 differences between diesel and gasoline. But
7 I do know they're two different products.
8 They're refined differently, they have
9 different distribution networks, different
10 delivery systems. They're two different
11 products. The cost of manufacturing diesel is
12 different from the cost of refining gasoline.
13 So I'm not sure what the question is implying.
14 But I will say this. I know when
15 it comes to comparing gasoline to gasoline, if
16 you increase the price of the tax, the price
17 of the gas goes up. If you reduce the price
18 of the tax, the price of gas goes down.
19 And we know, if we're talking about
20 agriculture and farming, we know the cost of
21 getting those goods to market increases when
22 the price of gasoline and fuel goes up,
23 because trucks deliver those goods to market.
24 Which is why when we talk about and
25 I hear concerns for the working families and

(518) 371-8910
2005
1 the poor, increased gas prices has a
2 regressive effect. That's exactly who it
3 hurts the most. It hurts the poor, first,
4 most.
5 Folks who are wealthy, they don't
6 even notice the fact that the price of bread
7 has gone up. They don't notice the fact that
8 the price of agricultural goods have gone up.
9 They don't even notice it. It's the working
10 families of this state, the poor of this
11 state.
12 So if we're going to talk about
13 farming and agriculture, if we can reduce the
14 price of gasoline in this state, we can have
15 an effect on the price of agricultural goods
16 and farm goods and food that people depend on
17 in this state.
18 SENATOR AUBERTINE: Thank you.
20 to yield.
25 Senator yields.

(518) 371-8910
2006
2 Senator.
3 Again, it's not the cost of the
4 fuel necessarily that we're talking about, as
5 far as the cost of producing it. In this
6 particular dialogue, that's really irrelevant.
7 What is relevant, though, is the

8 32 cents in tax is -- it doesn't matter
9 whether it's gasoline or diesel fuel. It's
10 still 32 cents.
11 But my question to you, sir, was
12 this. The pure cost of diesel fuel without
13 the tax is $3.86. That's the cost of fuel
14 delivered to my farm, no tax. The tax, if it
15 were taxed, if you were to buy it at the pump,
16 would be 32 cents. If you add those together,
17 it's $4.18.
18 But the average cost at the pump
19 isn't $4.18. It's not the pure cost of diesel
20 and the tax. The cost at the pump is $4.58.
21 There's 40 cents overcharged there.
22 My question to you, sir, is this.
23 Does your legislation -- will it address that
24 40-cent differential?

(518) 371-8910
2007
1 through you, it's sort of a convoluted
2 question. You have to compare apples to
3 apples, not apples to oranges.
4 The fact that there's a different
5 system in place for farmers in this state is
6 probably something my colleague would support.
7 These are measures to decrease the cost of
8 fuel for farmers because it's important to do
9 so to our economy and to the people of this
10 state that depend on the goods that farmers

11 bring to market.
12 We're trying to do the same thing
13 here. There is an anti-gouging measure in
14 this bill, a similar provision to what we have
15 in place for the gas-tax cap that we presently
16 have as law in this state.
17 Now, people are talking about not
18 knowing how much of an effect this will have,
19 not being sure. I think it will be, cent for
20 cent, penny for penny, 32 cents.
21 But I know one thing. I know if we
22 go home and we don't pass this, I know that
23 the price of gasoline on Staten Island and
24 across this state will not come down a single
25 penny. That I know. That we can all rely on

(518) 371-8910
2008
1 and depend upon.
2 I know that if we do this, this is
3 the quickest measure -- you know, I've heard
4 the word "pandering." Since when is it
5 pandering to do the right thing by the people
6 that send us here? Since when is it pandering
7 to deliver relief that people need? Just
8 because something is popular, just because
9 people support something doesn't make it
10 wrong. Doesn't make it pandering.
11 In fact, usually I trust the people
12 of this state and the people who send me here.
13 I trust their wisdom. I feel their pain.

14 When they tell me they need this, I don't
15 think it's pandering to give it to them, to
16 deliver that relief. I think it's doing the
17 right thing.
18 And that's what this measure -- we
19 could talk about all the things this doesn't
20 do. I want to talk about what it does do.
21 And it delivers much-needed relief to the
22 people of Staten Island and this state,
23 especially to the people who need it the most.
25 Senator.

(518) 371-8910
2009
1 If the Senator would continue to
2 yield for one more question.
4 Senator Lanza, will you continue to yield for
5 one more question?
8 Senator yields for one more question.
10 Senator.
11 As I'm sure you're aware, not every
12 engine that runs on a farm is diesel. There's
13 a lot of gas engines on a lot of farms. Now,
14 when gasoline is delivered to a farm, it is
15 taxed. Okay? But there is a mechanism in
16 place that allows a farmer to recoup that tax.

17 And there's a tax form, it's Form 4136, I
18 believe it is, when you do your taxes.
19 Would it be something that you
20 might consider, either in this bill or in
21 another bill, the idea of opening that
22 mechanism up to everyone so if you were to
23 keep track of your sales tax on the fuel that
24 you use, you can recoup it that way? And that
25 way, if you were to do it in this bill in

(518) 371-8910
2010
1 particular, you would have a mechanism in
2 place that we could all access that would go
3 directly to the consumer of fuel.
5 Mr. President. You know, I'm open to doing
6 all we can to help the people of this state.
7 What farmers have to do with respect to what
8 you're talking about, some might consider
9 cumbersome and burdensome and difficult. And
10 some have made the decision that farmers can
11 handle that as businesses.
12 You know, when it comes to the
13 people of this state, they have enough going
14 on in their lives. I want to deliver the
15 relief in the most direct and simple way we
16 can do it without adding additional burdens
17 upon them.
18 I'm not saying it's a bad idea.
19 It's something we can talk about. But I think

20 this is the right relief at the right time.
21 Someone said it's a gimmick because it's only
22 during the summer. You know, just like I
23 think someone said summer vacation for kids is
24 a gimmick. Talk to my kids. It's not a
25 gimmick. They can't wait. And the people of

(518) 371-8910
2011
1 this state can't wait either.
2 So I'm all for discussion and
3 talking. People can't wait. We can't find
4 ways to make this more difficult, to
5 complicate this even more. We've got to
6 deliver results, relief now in a way that
7 people will feel it and benefit from it.
8 But we can continue the dialogue.
9 There are many good ideas I've heard and have
10 been talked about. Senator Krueger mentioned
11 other things that we could do. I never said
12 this is the only thing we can do. I said that
13 this is the most direct thing we can do. And
14 there is lots we cannot do.
15 Of course we should continue the
16 discussion about other measures to go even
17 further. But this I know will deliver relief
18 now at the right time, and it's the right
19 relief.
20 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President.
22 you.
23 Senator Libous, why do you rise?
24 SENATOR LIBOUS: Would Senator
25 Aubertine yield to a question?

(518) 371-8910
2012
2 Senator Aubertine, will you yield?
3 SENATOR AUBERTINE: Sure.
5 Senator yields.
6 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you,
7 Mr. President, through you.
8 Senator Aubertine, do you believe
9 that Senator Lanza's bill will help farmers
10 and their families?
11 SENATOR AUBERTINE: I do.
12 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you,
13 Mr. President.
14 SENATOR AUBERTINE: On the bill,
15 Mr. President.
17 Senator Aubertine, on the bill.
18 Senator Adams, why do you rise?
19 SENATOR ADAMS: Would Senator
20 Aubertine yield for a question?
22 Senator, will you yield for a question?
23 SENATOR AUBERTINE: Yes.
25 Senator yields.
(518) 371-8910
2013
1 SENATOR ADAMS: Because I think
2 this is an important point that many of us
3 have that's in support of Senator Lanza's
4 bill.
5 And I need to understand that -- if
6 I understand you correctly, then the price
7 that farmers receive, is it with a tax or
8 without a tax?
9 SENATOR AUBERTINE: Without.
10 SENATOR ADAMS: Without a tax.
11 SENATOR AUBERTINE: Correct.
12 SENATOR ADAMS: Would he yield
13 for another question?
15 Senator, will you yield for another question?
16 SENATOR AUBERTINE: Yes.
18 Senator yields.
19 SENATOR ADAMS: Is that price
20 that you receive without a tax, is it the same
21 price that consumers are paying at the pump
22 for diesel fuel?
23 SENATOR AUBERTINE: No.
24 SENATOR ADAMS: Is it --

(518) 371-8910
2014
1 Senator, will you continue to yield?

2 The Senator yields.
3 SENATOR ADAMS: Is it less or
4 more? I just need to understand that.
5 SENATOR AUBERTINE: The delivered
6 price for diesel fuel on the farm, as I
7 indicated to Senator Lanza, is -- the latest
8 price that I paid was $3.86.
9 That's for diesel fuel that's dyed.
10 It's dyed red. And the reason it's dyed is
11 because you don't want to be caught driving
12 down the Thruway or any other road in this
13 state with undyed fuel. It's dyed because
14 it's untaxed.
15 And my question was this. If the
16 tax is 32 cents, if you add the 0.32 in that
17 3.86 -- which I would consider the pure cost
18 because it doesn't have tax on it -- you've
19 got $4.18. My question to Senator Lanza was,
20 why is it $4.18 with the tax yet, if I were to
21 go to a filling station and buy diesel fuel,
22 on average in New York State I'm going to pay
23 $4.58?
24 The 40-cent difference is not tax.
25 It's not the cost of production. It's pure

(518) 371-8910
2015
1 profit for somebody.
2 SENATOR ADAMS: Thank you very
3 much. Thank you.

5 you, Senators.
6 SENATOR AUBERTINE: On the bill,
7 Mr. President.
9 bill, Senator Aubertine.
10 SENATOR AUBERTINE: I agree that
11 this is certainly a bill that is worthy of
12 moving forward. I think that there's
13 certainly a lot of room for improvement, but I
14 do applaud my colleagues, or my colleague
15 Senator Lanza, for bringing this forward and
16 opening this dialogue. It's certainly
17 healthy.
18 And I do agree with him that all we
19 can to for our families here in New York State
20 and our businesses here in New York State to
21 alleviate the high cost of fuel is something
22 that we should be doing.
23 So with that, thank you,
24 Mr. President.

(518) 371-8910
2016
1 you, Senator.
2 Senator Savino.
3 SENATOR SAVINO: Thank you,
4 Mr. President.
5 This has actually been a pretty
6 fascinating debate today. You know, as
7 state-elected representatives, we are all

8 uniquely aware of our limitations.
9 Unfortunately, our constituents are not aware
10 of those limitations. We can all share
11 stories where people expect to us take care of
12 potholes and street lights and graffiti and
13 crime, the war in Iraq, and the price of gas.
14 It's been said that we cannot
15 control the failures of the Bush
16 administration, which we can't. We cannot
17 answer for the Bush administration's failure
18 to do something about greater fuel efficiency.
19 We can't do anything about the Bush
20 administration's failure to deal with windfall
21 profits of the oil companies or their failure
22 to control the cost of oil.
23 We cannot do anything about the
24 failure of the Democratically controlled House
25 and the Senate to address this issue. We

(518) 371-8910
2017
1 can't do anything about any of those things.
2 But this we can do something about.
3 We can control the cost of gasoline tax.
4 It has been suggested that this is
5 eighth-grade math or eighth-grade policy.
6 It's been suggested that this will only result
7 in a $50 savings.
8 Well, I do math a little bit
9 differently, perhaps because I went to
10 Catholic schools. So I did a little

11 back-of-the-envelope calculation, and I came
12 up with some different numbers.
13 I drive a Saturn Vue. I have a
14 16-gallon tank. Sixteen gallons times
15 32 cents for one fill-up would save me $5.12 a
16 fill-up. I fill up my gas tank twice a week.
17 That would save me $10.24 per week, with two
18 fill-ups. Or 15 weeks of that during our
19 holiday would be $153.60.
20 Now, what would I do with that
21 $153.60? Well, perhaps I would take that
22 money and I would pay two months of my KeySpan
23 bill, which would help me deal with my home
24 energy heating costs. Or maybe I'd buy a pair
25 of shoes. Maybe I'd get my hair done, or I'd

(518) 371-8910
2018
1 get my nails done a few times. Or whatever I
2 would do.
3 But it would be my money, and I
4 would be able to redistribute it wherever I
5 wanted to. So it would be a real savings for
6 me.
7 I'm a single person; $153 I can
8 spend on a pair of shoes. But if I had a
9 couple of kids, maybe that $153 would be the
10 difference between paying for medication at
11 this pharmacy. Or maybe that $153 would be
12 the difference between the vacation that we
13 think is trivial, some of us think is trivial.

14 But $153 is real money to real people. I
15 represent real people, as most of us do too.
16 It's been suggested that this won't
17 work because it hasn't worked in the past. We
18 haven't been able to accomplish it. Well, I
19 reject that argument. Just because it hasn't
20 worked in the past or we haven't found a way
21 to see to it that the money will go directly
22 into the pockets of consumers doesn't mean we
23 cannot find a way to do that. We can find a
24 way. We have an obligation to do that.
25 And as we've had a great debate

(518) 371-8910
2019
1 here, we've come up with many ideas. The idea
2 of perhaps a tax rebate. The idea of having
3 stronger anti-gouging language in the
4 legislation. We can do that.
5 It's been suggested that we cannot
6 afford it, we cannot afford the hit to our
7 state budget. Well, I will continue to
8 maintain that we spend too much money as it
9 is. We just spent a month passing a state
10 budget that everybody believes -- all the
11 economists who are critical of this plan are
12 critical of our state budget. They've said
13 we've spent too much money and we're going to
14 have to come back and make some cuts. And
15 maybe we will.
16 And when we do that, we should find

17 a way to provide $500 million in tax relief to
18 people. Whether it's 32 cents a shot or it's
19 $153 over the summer, it's real money. We can
20 do it.
21 And I'm going to support this bill,
22 and I want to commend my colleague from Staten
23 Island, Senator Lanza. He and I know just
24 what this will do to our community. Every day
25 we watch the constituents that we represent

(518) 371-8910
2020
1 sit in their homes and calculate how much
2 money they will save by going to New Jersey to
3 fill up their gas tanks. I fill up there. We
4 see what happens when they get there. They
5 calculate the cost of the tolls on the Hudson
6 River crossings. They know that when they get
7 to New Jersey they will pay less for gas, for
8 cigarettes, for liquor, for clothing, for
9 beverages. They pay less over there. We are
10 losing millions of dollars from New York City
11 residents going to New Jersey because they
12 have lower gas taxes, they have lower taxes on
13 everything.
14 We can stop our constituents from
15 stimulating the economy of New Jersey and put
16 them back in New York. I'm voting for this
17 bill, and I urge everybody to do that.
19 you, Senator.
20 Any other Senator wish to be heard?
21 Senator Onorato.
22 SENATOR ONORATO: Mr. President,
23 will the sponsor yield to a question.
25 Senator Lanza, will you yield to a question?

(518) 371-8910
2021
2 Mr. President.
4 Senator yields.
5 SENATOR ONORATO: Senator, you
6 mentioned in your bill that you have a
7 provision in there for anti-gouging. Could
8 you explain to me what brings about gouging?
9 At what price? What constitutes gouging?
10 SENATOR LANZA: Well, for
11 instance, if anyone did anything which would
12 be contrary to the very specific provision in
13 here which requires that the price at the pump
14 be reduced commensurate with the reduction in
15 the tax. The same provision we have in place
16 with respect to the gas-tax cap, which seems
17 to have worked well.
18 SENATOR ONORATO: Will he
19 continue to yield, please.

23 Mr. President.

(518) 371-8910
2022
1 SENATOR ONORATO: Senator, would
2 you explain it to me in eighth-grade math?
3 What would I save in dollars and cents on the
4 anti-gouging? At what price would it be --
5 how much would constitute gouging? Ten cents
6 a gallon, 5 cents a gallon, 20 cents a gallon?
7 Or perhaps the 40 cents a gallon that Senator
8 Aubertine has related that nobody can explain
9 where it's going.
10 SENATOR LANZA: Well, let me
11 explain it. You will save 32 cents a gallon.
12 So will the people you represent, including
13 the people I represent. You can go to the
14 bank on it.
15 All the evidence that you need is
16 out there in surrounding states. If you
17 reduce the price -- if you lower the tax, you
18 lower the price of gas. If you raise the
19 price of the tax, you raise the price of gas.
20 But if you have a concern or if any
21 of us do, and if we see any evidence of
22 gouging, then according to the anti-gouging
23 statute, we'd refer it to the Attorney
24 General. And the Attorney General would
25 launch an investigation to determine whether

(518) 371-8910
2023
1 or not there's gouging. That's how it works.
2 SENATOR ONORATO: I understand
3 that, sir. But again --
4 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: Are
5 you asking --
6 SENATOR ONORATO: -- could you be
7 more specific?
9 Senator, are you asking Senator Lanza to
10 continue to yield?
11 SENATOR ONORATO: Would he
12 continue to yield.
14 Senator, will you continue to yield?
17 Senator yields.
18 SENATOR ONORATO: Senator, I'm
19 not trying to be a wise guy. I really want to
20 know, what would the actual cost of gouging be
21 considered? How much? Ten cents a gallon, a
22 nickel a gallon over and above the 32 cents
23 that we're saving?
24 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: Yeah,
25 it's not a price. It would be the

(518) 371-8910
2024
1 Commissioner of Tax and Finance that I believe

2 would have jurisdiction over such an
3 investigation. The Attorney General could be
4 brought in if we believe that there's gouging.
5 You know, if we don't eliminate the
6 tax on gasoline, some unscrupulous retailer or
7 company can decide to gouge right now. They
8 can decide to gouge today. And so if you're
9 suggesting that we don't have adequate
10 provisions currently in the law to deal with
11 that, then we ought to talk about that.
12 We do, though, have an anti-gouging
13 statute. And whether or not we reduce the
14 gasoline tax, there's always the threat,
15 there's always the concern that we all share
16 that someone may decide to break the law and
17 gouge.
18 Reducing the price of gasoline by
19 32 cents will not create any incentive for
20 anyone to gouge that does not exist today.
21 SENATOR ONORATO: Okay.
23 you.
24 Senator Sampson.
25 SENATOR SAMPSON: Mr. President,

(518) 371-8910
2025
1 would the sponsor yield for just a few
2 questions?

6 Mr. President.
8 Senator yields.
9 SENATOR SAMPSON: Thank you very
10 much. Through you, Mr. President.
11 Senator Lanza, I want to --
13 me. Can we have some quiet in the chamber,
14 please. It's getting difficult for Senators
15 who are engaged in the debate to hear each
16 other.
17 SENATOR SAMPSON: Through you,
18 Mr. President. Senator Lanza, I want to --
19 first of all, I want to thank you very much
20 for really bringing this issue to the floor.
21 And, you know, reasonable minds can disagree
22 with respect to this issue.
23 And one of the questions, you know,
24 something I've always heard you say during
25 this debate is we've got to do it now, we've

(518) 371-8910
2026
1 got to do it now, we've got to do it now,
2 we've got to do it now.
3 My question to you -- through you,
4 Mr. President -- is have you had any
5 discussions with the Assembly with respect to
6 this legislation?

8 through you, I've talked to individual members
9 of the Assembly. Some support it strongly;
10 others have questions.
11 So the answer is yes, I have
12 discussed this with some members of the
13 Assembly.
16 to yield.
20 Mr. President.
24 Mr. President, have you had any discussions
25 with any of the Governor's staff with respect

(518) 371-8910
2027
1 to this legislation?
2 SENATOR LANZA: You know,
3 Mr. President, I heard and read in the paper
4 that Governor Paterson refused to not support
5 this out of hand. He had questions, and I
6 think he said that he would look at it. He
7 talked about other things that could be done.
8 But he did not reject this measure, according
9 to what I read in the paper, out of hand.

11 Mr. President, would the sponsor continue to
12 yield?
17 Senator yields, Senator.
19 Mr. President. Senator Lanza, so would this
20 legislation happen, or it's not going to
21 happen, in your opinion?
23 am so hopeful, I am so hopeful. And I am
24 confident that the members of the Assembly and
25 the Governor know what we know, that people

(518) 371-8910
2028
1 are hurting, that the price of gasoline is too
2 high in this state, that the price at the pump
3 goes beyond, that it's affecting the price of
4 milk and bread and eggs. So I'm hopeful.
5 I know that I have a
6 responsibility, as the Senator representing
7 the 24th District of Staten Island, to do what
8 I think is necessary and responsible and is
9 consistent with the best interests of the
10 people I represent, both back home and across
11 this state. And that is my job and my
12 responsibility.
13 And so I believe in this

14 legislation, because I believe it will deliver
15 relief, much-needed relief. And I'm hopeful
16 that the Assembly gets that and that the
17 Governor gets that.
18 But I'll tell you, I won't let
19 someone's disagreement with that proposal stop
20 me from doing what I think is right. I
21 believe this is right, and it's my
22 responsibility to do what I think is right and
23 then take the next step, to convince, if
24 there's agreement across the hall, to do all I
25 can to convince the members of the Assembly

(518) 371-8910
2029
1 that they need to act as well. And then I'll
2 speak to the Governor or anyone else that I
3 can to make sure that this becomes a reality.
7 Senator Sampson, on the bill.
8 SENATOR SAMPSON: Senator Lanza,
9 I hear your passion, I understand your
10 passion, and I'm with you.
11 When I go home to my district, you
12 know what my constituents are going to tell
13 me? They're going to say "Show me the money.
14 Show me the savings."
15 You know, I'm going to say: "Well,
16 you know, I'm hopeful it's going to happen."

17 You know what they're going to tell me?
18 They're going to say, "Senator, I agree with
19 you a hundred percent. But you know, a
20 promise is a comfort to a fool, and we as
21 constituents, we are no fools."
22 The bottom line here is this. And
23 I can understand where you're coming from. I
24 want to give savings to my constituency. But
25 if we're talking about being responsible, you

(518) 371-8910
2030
1 know, we have no fiscal impact study as to --
2 you talk about $600 million coming from the
3 General Fund. Where is that money coming
4 from? You know what? We don't know where
5 it's coming from.
6 And at the end of the day, we give
7 them this little holiday, what is going to
8 prevent these retailers the day after this
9 holiday of hiking up the gas price again?
10 And as Senator Connor was saying,
11 this is more of a comprehensive issue. You
12 know, as Senator Winner talked about Senator
13 Hillary Clinton -- I don't support Hillary
14 Clinton. I support Barack Obama. And he says
15 this is a gimmick. And we're not about
16 gimmicks, we're about substance. And I know
17 you are a person who is about substance.
18 And that's why when Senator
19 Hassell-Thompson said, you know, pull this

20 bill so we can have this discussion -- because
21 the reason I asked you those questions is my
22 constituents are going to say: "I want to see
23 immediate relief. I don't want to have to go
24 through an entire process." This process
25 should have been dealt with before we got to

(518) 371-8910
2031
1 this point.
2 You know, this is not about photo
3 ops, this is not about, you know, literature
4 going to our communities saying we support the
5 gas tax. Because at the end of the day, when
6 we can't deliver for our constituents, they're
7 going to look at me again and say, "Sampson,
8 as I told you before, a promise is a comfort
9 to a fool, and we are no fools."
10 So I want to commend you on this
11 legislation, but I can't support it, not being
12 responsible. Because it's all about being
13 fiscally responsible. Because you can save a
14 couple of dollars -- now, you talk about
15 New Jersey all the time. New Jersey with the
16 taxes and the gasoline tax. But you know
17 something also about New Jersey? The
18 residents of New Jersey pay the highest -- one
19 of the highest property taxes in this country.
20 And I ask myself why is that.
21 But I want to commend you, and
22 you're right. Hopefully this is open for

23 discussions, we can deal with this issue.
24 Because you know what? This is an excellent
25 idea. And my people do need, do need some

(518) 371-8910
2032
1 relief. But they're going to say "Show me the
2 money."
3 Thank you. And I vote no.
5 you, Senator.
6 Any other Senator wish to be heard?
7 Please ring the bells. The debate
8 is closed.
9 Let me tactfully remind the
10 Senators that there's a two-minute limit on
11 explaining your vote. And the presiding
12 officer will do his best to keep that in mind
13 and to enforce that rule today.
14 The Secretary will read the last
15 section.
19 the roll.
22 Senator Little, to explain her vote.
23 SENATOR LITTLE: Thank you,
24 Mr. President.
25 One of the comments that I have

(518) 371-8910
2033
1 heard from people who are speaking in
2 opposition to the bill is that this is a
3 one-house bill. Well, I would daresay that
4 this is not the first time that a one-house
5 Senate bill has become law and has helped the
6 people in our state.
7 The people in my district are
8 hurting in every phase of their life, and they
9 want to know what I can do about the price of
10 gas. Well, there's a number of things that I
11 can't do. I can't change the change the value
12 of the dollar, the price of oil per barrel,
13 the oil futures. I can't do anything of any
14 of that. I can encourage Congress to take
15 some action.
16 But what can I do? I can reduce
17 this state tax on gasoline. It will not only
18 help the people in my district, it will
19 attract tourists to New York State who will
20 spend more money so that we have more jobs,
21 more income, more sales tax, more of
22 everything. It will help us get through the
23 summer.
24 I applaud Senator Lanza for this
25 bill. I vote aye. Thank you.

(518) 371-8910
2034

2 you, Senator. Senator Little, you will be
3 recorded in the affirmative.
4 Senator Griffo.
5 SENATOR GRIFFO: Thank you,
6 Mr. President. To explain my vote.
7 I also live in a district where the
8 use of a vehicle is essential for one's
9 livelihood and to conduct all aspects of one's
10 life.
11 And we hear a lot of people talk
12 about "One New York." And I would hope that
13 if that's more than rhetoric and that's
14 genuine, that we would really hear what people
15 are saying and that we would listen to that
16 and respond.
17 And this bill that Senator Lanza is
18 proposing gives us that opportunity to provide
19 that immediate relief.
20 And yes, this is a federal problem.
21 And we should be holding all the presidential
22 candidates accountable to ensure that this is
23 a major issue, to discuss the long-term
24 answers to these problems that we're having
25 with energy.

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1 We have a Senate proclamation to
2 the Congress telling them to follow suit and
3 encouraging them to act, as we are right now,
4 to deal with this problem immediately but also

5 long-term.
6 The Governor has empaneled an
7 energy panel here. We need to work with him
8 to ensure we have a comprehensive energy
9 policy in this state.
10 But this bill today allows us to
11 provide immediate relief to the people that we
12 represent, to show them that we hear them,
13 that we care, and that we can and will do
14 something.
15 I vote aye.
17 you, Senator Griffo. You will be recorded in
18 the affirmative.
19 Senator Volker, to explain his
20 vote.
21 SENATOR VOLKER: Very quickly, to
22 explain my vote.
23 I just want to say it was
24 interesting -- and look, this is no knock.
25 This is the world we live in. I was looking

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1 over to see how many of the no votes were from
2 New York City. And I realized the first three
3 speakers against the gas tax were from
4 Manhattan and were lecturing us on fuel use.
5 Well, we all know that New York
6 City is a whole different situation than
7 upstate New York, where this is not a matter

8 of putting money in people's pockets, this is
9 a matter in some cases of survival.
10 I think we should realize two
11 things. Marty, you said that George Bush was
12 at fault. Well, I think Ralph Nader is at
13 fault, and I can give a good explanation of
14 exactly why.
15 But so what are we going to do?
16 Are we going to sit here and do nothing
17 because somebody else is at fault? We don't
18 have enough refineries, we don't have enough
19 of that stuff?
20 The only chance we in this state
21 truly have to deal with this issue -- you can
22 talk about gouging, all that stuff. Which is
23 nonsense, because we can't do anything about
24 it. The only chance is to get rid of our tax.
25 And I will tell you something that

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1 some friends of mine have said, and I think
2 they're right. If this state gets rid of our
3 taxes, New Jersey will, Pennsylvania will, all
4 of them will, because they'll be forced to do
5 it. And you know what then will happen? The
6 McCain-Clinton bill will probably pass in
7 Washington, and we could have as much as
8 64 cents off a gallon of gas. And no oil
9 companies, nobody, can fill that in.
10 The New York Times story was

11 clearly the usual New York Times story; they
12 don't know anything about what they're talking
13 about.
14 I vote aye.
16 you, Senator. You will be recorded in the
17 affirmative.
18 Senator Marcellino, to explain his
19 vote.
20 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you,
21 Mr. President.
22 I'd like to thank my colleague
23 Senator Lanza for bringing this bill forward.
24 It's an important issue. It's designed to
25 give a break to our constituents who require

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1 the use of their cars because they have no
2 other choice.
3 I live on an island which happens
4 to be very long. The price of gas at one end
5 of that island, the western end, is about
6 $3.80. If you go out to the eastern end, you
7 go to Montauk Point, it's a dollar more,
8 $4.80. That's what you're dealing with. The
9 price is different out there.
10 The merchants out there, the
11 trucking businesses out there, they live for
12 the tourists. They live for people to take
13 those day trips out to the east end of the

14 island. If gas is up over $4.00 and over
15 $4.50, those people will not go that far.
16 They will not travel the hundred miles one way
17 to get to Montauk and go those to businesses
18 and participate in the economy of the eastern
19 end of this island.
20 Those people will suffer -- the
21 farmstands, the farmers, the wineries. You
22 name it, they will suffer. The economy of
23 Long Island will suffer, and the economy of
24 this state will suffer.
25 We must do something now. I agree

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1 with my colleagues who said we should be doing
2 something with home heating fuel. I am. We
3 have in the works right now what I call the
4 Home Heating Relief Act, which would give a
5 tax deduction of up to a thousand dollars off
6 your fuel, based on your fuel costs for the
7 two highest home heating months of the year.
8 That's in bill drafting now and
9 will be out shortly. And we'll introduce that
10 bill, and hopefully all my colleagues who
11 expressed concern about what are we going to
12 do for home heating will be on that bill and
13 be in support of that bill, because I believe
14 it will do an awful lot to relieve the burden
15 for our consumers.
16 Summer is followed by winter, we

17 all know that. So we've got to take
18 consideration of what's coming up immediately,
19 the summer months, which we need to take care
20 of. And we need to give our people a break.
21 And we need to go into the home heating
22 season, which also will be addressed.
23 This bill is not a panacea, but
24 it's a great first step. And I vote aye,
25 Mr. President, and I ask everyone in this

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1 chamber to vote aye as well.
3 you, Senator. You just about nosed out the
4 two-minute limit. You will be recorded in the
5 affirmative.
6 Senator Fuschillo.
7 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Mr.
8 President, thank you very much.
9 And just briefly, yesterday the
10 Governor appropriated $17 million to the "I
11 Love New York" campaign. And he did that to
12 promote tourism within New York State and
13 throughout this country to come here to
14 New York State. And today we've got a
15 Republican Senator from Staten Island who
16 wants to reduce taxes. It's a no-brainer.
17 You can make every excuse you want
18 in the world. You can blame Bush -- I agree
19 with you. You can blame Cheney. Senator

20 Connor, I agree with you. Senator Savino
21 appropriately said the Democratic-controlled
22 Senate and Congress in the United States
23 government has done nothing. Washington, we
24 know, doesn't have the courage to adopt a
25 comprehensive energy policy.

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1 In the absence of that, if we can
2 do anything here in New York State to ease the
3 pain at the pump, we should do it. Senator
4 Lanza's bill does that.
5 Senator Savino said she's going to
6 save about 150 bucks this summer. What about
7 the trucker that goes to the pump and fills up
8 that truck, that 18-wheeler, that has a 200-,
9 300-, 400-gallon tank? What about the couple
10 of hundred bucks they're going to save? And
11 where does the savings go? It comes down to
12 the consumer.
13 You know, I get Poland Spring
14 delivered to my house. All of a sudden I have
15 a two-dollar surcharge on there. I called up
16 the company: "Why a two-dollar surcharge?"
17 "I'm paying more at the pump," so it costs the
18 consumers more.
19 Well, if that trucker is going to
20 save a couple of hundred bucks every time he
21 or she fills up -- and maybe it's $3,000 or
22 $4,000 during this period of time of

23 suspension -- then that money gets passed down
24 to the consumer. Maybe bread will be cheaper.
25 Maybe milk will be cheaper. Maybe the goods

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1 and services that we buy every single day as
2 consumers will be cheaper. It's a no-brainer.
3 Senator Lanza, the people from
4 Staten Island I know are calling you every
5 single day, the same as my district in Nassau
6 and Suffolk County. They want relief at the
7 pump. This is something they do every three,
8 four days. They go there, they take the 50,
9 60 bucks of cash out of their pocket, or
10 charge. They need relief now. If we can do
11 something, let's do it.
12 I vote aye.
14 you, Senator Fuschillo. You will be recorded
15 in the affirmative.
16 Senator DeFrancisco, to explain his
17 vote.
18 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes, I'm
19 going to vote aye on this legislation. And
20 there's been a long, long debate on issues
21 that may have some interest to the
22 intellectual who wants to debate theory.
23 And some of those issues concern
24 the environment, concerning whether this is
25 going to have any long-term effect. It's

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1 probably not going to solve the energy crisis.
2 I can guarantee it won't solve it; we need a
3 national policy to do that.
4 But does that mean we sit here and
5 let our constituents suffer day after day when
6 they go to the pump? I don't think that
7 follows at all. We have the authority to do a
8 change. And this is actually deja vu all over
9 again. We had the same debate when there was
10 a concern over whether we should put a cap on
11 the cost of taxes of gasoline over $2. Well,
12 we did it.
13 Oil kept going up. We can't
14 resolve that. We're not the national
15 government. We can't resolve that. But we
16 did save a substantial amount of money already
17 to the consumer. We're just completing the
18 loop and trying to save them more.
19 The part that really amuses me is
20 the alternatives we could do with this
21 $600 million that we're going to be deprived
22 from the treasury. We can have a -- send back
23 a rebate check, we can do this, we can do
24 that. To me those are more excuses why not to
25 do this relief for the taxpayer, and they

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1 really don't ring true.

2 Secondly, that doesn't account for
3 the truckers and the businesses. Whether we
4 stimulate the economy or not, we're going to
5 lose some of this business if we keep not
6 doing whatever we can do from the state level.
7 Lastly, there was a question raised
8 about where are we going to cut to make the
9 difference of the $600 million or whatever the
10 number may be. Well, somehow we survived the
11 cap on gasoline, the loss of revenues there.
12 We survived there. We still increased our
13 spending this year.
14 And quite frankly, in my mind,
15 $600 million that is in the taxpayers' pockets
16 is much safer than $600 million left with the
17 government to find a way to spend.
18 So I vote aye for this. It may not
19 be a long-term solution, but it's certainly
20 relief for businesses and for our taxpayers in
21 our communities.
22 Thank you. I vote aye.
25 affirmative.

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1 Senator Sta -- Stav -- Sta --
2 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Stachowski.
3 Stavisky's over there; I'm Stachowski.
4 That's all right, Tom, it's been a

5 long afternoon.
6 Mr. President, I too rise to
7 support this measure. The people in my
8 district will appreciate any kind of help they
9 can get with their payments at the pump.
10 And the only problems I have, and I
11 do have to mention them, is I'm concerned
12 about making sure that they do get the money,
13 because somehow it has a way of drifting into
14 other people's pockets. I worry about that.
15 But hopefully I'm counting on Senator Lanza to
16 make sure that my constituents get this entire
17 amount of money off every gallon.
18 And secondly, I think you ought to
19 take a look at the gouging provision that you
20 keep referring to. I don't think it's quite
21 as strong as you refer to it in the
22 information I received getting ready for this
23 bill.
24 It seems to be a flawed gouging
25 provision, and you might want to look into

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1 strengthening that, because that could prove
2 to be a problem if we do in fact find people
3 gouging. And it is right now only civil, and
4 you might want to extend it beyond that also,
5 being that the cost of gas is having such an
6 impact on everybody's life.
7 So with that, I rise to support

8 this issue. I'm voting yes. And hopefully
9 the people in my district will see the amount
10 of money that they're supposed to see in
11 savings.
12 Thank you.
15 affirmative.
16 Senator Adams, to explain his vote.
17 SENATOR ADAMS: First, thank you,
18 Mr. President.
19 I want to commend my colleagues for
20 spending two and a half hours debating this
21 issue, because it needs to be debated. And
22 this is an important issue. You know, people
23 are hurting. People are hurting. And if we
24 just walked in here and voted without having a
25 discussion, I think we would be insulting the

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1 people who sent us here.
2 So we should debate. And I don't
3 think that any side of the aisle, no matter
4 what the position one may take, is stating
5 that we don't want to deal with the issue
6 that's impacting our constituents.
7 I'm going to vote for this bill,
8 because, you know, folks need some type of
9 relief. I'm concerned, as my colleagues
10 stated, that making sure the money goes to the

11 actual consumer.
12 And I'm going to ask the sponsor of
13 the bill to join me this weekend as we go
14 through the community and test some of these
15 gas stations to make sure our consumers are
16 getting what they paid for and to identify
17 some location where gouging is taking place.
18 I think there's no greater
19 statement we can make on both sides of the
20 aisle. There's some issues that are not
21 Republican-driven or Democrat-driven, they're
22 the-residents-of-this-state-driven. And by
23 you and I joining together doing that, we will
24 send a strong message as state legislators,
25 enough is enough. We've got to alleviate the

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1 price that individuals are paying.
2 I'm going to vote aye.
5 affirmative.
6 Senator Connor, to explain his
7 vote.
8 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you,
9 Mr. President.
10 First, I want to say I agree with
11 Senator Volker when he said I blamed Bush and
12 Cheney but he thinks it's really Ralph Nader's
13 fault. I agree. If Nader hadn't run in 2000,

14 we wouldn't have had Bush and Cheney. I agree
15 with Senator Volker.
16 (Laughter.)
17 SENATOR CONNOR: Two points. If
18 we really want to help all the constituents,
19 all the people in New York, then instead of
20 lowering this tax 32 cents for one quarter of
21 the year, why don't we lower the tax 8 cents
22 for the whole year?
23 So that people who vacation by
24 taking a fall foliage tour in the Adirondacks,
25 or go on a winter vacation by going to one of

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1 our wonderful ski resorts, get the same
2 benefit as people who vacation in the summer.
3 And everybody gets an equal benefit when they
4 go to work, whether they work in the summer,
5 fall, whatever.
6 If you want to blow $500 or
7 $600 million out of the budget to do this --
8 and I think it's a good idea to give relief --
9 lower the tax 8 cents 12 months of the year.
10 Same dollars, people benefit. Because
11 politically, my colleagues, people think "what
12 have you done for me later."
13 Do you really want to be there the
14 day after Labor Day when your campaigns are
15 heating up and your constituents say, "Oh, my
16 God, it went up 32 cents. Why's that?" And

17 the guy at the gas station says: "Oh, the
18 Legislature."
19 Your price of gas went up 32 cents
20 two months before your election. Brilliant
21 politics, Mr. President.
22 I vote no.
24 you, Senator Connor. You will be recorded in
25 the negative.

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1 Senator Larkin, to explain his
2 vote.
3 SENATOR LARKIN: Thank you,
4 Mr. President.
5 You know, I've sat here today and
6 I've listened to everything from conception to
7 delivery, for the most part. But my
8 bitterness and gripe here is rather than think
9 about what we should be doing -- I hear people
10 say, What are we going to do about corruption?
11 What are we going to do about this? What are
12 we going to do about it?
13 Well, I'll tell you what we're
14 going to do. Maybe get off your phones
15 sometime and go visit somebody.
16 Our former attorney general, our
17 former governor, I gave him 14 cases of what
18 was happening a couple of years ago when he
19 was in the AG's office and it took him nine

20 months to get back to me to say: "Oh, we're
21 settling with them." "What about it?" "Oh,
22 but I can't tell you."
23 Oh, you can't? So I can't tell
24 my -- so when you started to say how are we
25 going to see that they're not gouging or doing

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1 this here, what about the Consumer Affairs
2 Department? What about the Attorney General?
3 We have Consumer Affairs in every one of our
4 counties. Why don't we start a little
5 campaign of working together?
6 You know, it's easy to stand here
7 and listen to all this nuts. I heard the
8 Senator from Manhattan -- no, not you.
9 (Laughter.)
10 SENATOR LARKIN: I heard you too.
11 Schneiderman. Senator
12 Schneiderman's comment was it was Pataki's and
13 Bruno's problem.
14 The last time I knew, the Speaker's
15 name was Silver. The last time I knew, it
16 took that house, this house, and the guy on
17 the second floor to make it happen.
18 So let's not make excuses. When
19 you want to start making all these excuses,
20 remember '06? "Elect us to Congress and
21 you'll see something." Do you know, as of
22 today, there's been more bills passed in the

23 Iraqi legislature than there has in the House
24 and the Senate of the United States. So when
25 we talk about doing something, look at that.

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1 Here's the problem. They've done
2 nothing, we've done nothing. Someone says
3 about the workers -- let's talk about people,
4 as Marcellino said, everybody -- this is this
5 isn't just about somebody going on a vacation.
6 Going on a vacation? Somebody needs to eat.
7 My good friend John Sabini comes up
8 in my area and spends his money at my tracks
9 and then goes and has a good meal.
10 Let's stop fooling ourselves.
11 There's something here called a chapter
12 amendment. You think you got something good?
13 You bring it to Lanza. I think Lanza did a
14 super, super job today.
15 And you're to be commended, because
16 you didn't fall down when people tried to
17 knock you down. You stood up and spoke for
18 the people of the State of New York. I thank
19 you.
20 And I vote yes.
22 you, Senator Larkin. You will be recorded in
23 the affirmative.
24 And if you have any other tidbits
25 about people's personal actions, you can let

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1 us know about those.
2 (Laughter.)
4 Senator Craig Johnson, to explain his vote.
5 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Thank you
6 very much, Mr. President. I will be voting in
7 the affirmative.
8 I have to say I find it very
9 interesting that my friend Senator Volker, who
10 used to sit next to me, referred to the
11 McCain-Clinton bill in Washington. I think
12 given the way Washington is being run these
13 days, maybe it should be referred to as the
14 Clinton-McCain bill.
15 But I think whichever way you talk
16 about it, the important thing is it
17 demonstrates a bipartisan commitment by those
18 two senators to reduce the price of gas.
19 And I think today what has become
20 apparent in this debate is you have that same
21 bipartisan commitment by the New York State
22 Senate. And maybe if Senator Lanza wants to
23 open up his bill to sponsorship from this side
24 of the aisle, it would be another example of a
25 bipartisan spirit in showing a commitment to

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1 reduce the price of gas for our consumers.

2 But I will say, in hearing a
3 terrific debate and explanation of votes from
4 my colleagues on both sides of the aisle, in
5 talking about tourism and farming and talking
6 about, you know, the working class, I think
7 one thing that we need to remember about who
8 this bill is going to help are our young
9 people, our teenagers and our college students
10 who this summer are going to be driving to
11 jobs.
12 Who need these jobs to pay for
13 skyrocketing tuition costs, for skyrocketing
14 board costs at schools, and who need this
15 money for other types of expenses. And
16 instead, what they're going to be facing if we
17 don't take this action is simply taking the
18 money from their employer and giving it to the
19 gas station pump.
20 And this legislation will help
21 relieve that so that they can keep that money
22 that they've worked so hard for and keep it in
23 their pocket.
24 Obviously, in the discussion,
25 members of my side of the aisle have pointed

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1 out some important flaws that have to be
2 addressed going forward. But clearly we can't
3 stop the progress of this bill to help our
4 constituents. But clearly a rebate program --

5 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: I have
6 to interrupt you, Senator. You are on the
7 two-minute line.
8 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Oh, wow.
9 That's interesting, I thought -- well, that
10 being said, I will certainly sit down now and
11 say I do vote in favor of the bill.
12 Thank you very much.
15 affirmative.
16 Senator Duane.
18 Mr. President.
19 I actually was going to say
20 something for Senator Larkin's benefit, but he
21 stepped out to make a phone call.
22 (Laughter.)
23 SENATOR DUANE: Seriously. That
24 was for his benefit.
25 I want to thank Senator Lanza for

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1 making sure that we all got the study. Thank
2 you very much. And because we're a chatty
3 crowd, I actually got to review it.
4 And, you know, I was here for
5 virtually all the debate, and I really did
6 listen to what people were saying. And I've
7 been conflicted about this, and I've changed

8 my vote a couple of times, both before the
9 debate and even during the debate.
10 You know, people are hurting in
11 New York State. And I know the importance of
12 tourism in New York State, and I also know
13 that in many places it's easy to buy gas in
14 New Jersey and Pennsylvania. These are very
15 compelling arguments. And also the price for
16 trucks.
17 But, you know, I would prefer we
18 had more rail freight. I even wish we used
19 more barges, and maybe this will push us in
20 that direction.
21 And I'm willing to be wrong in my
22 vote on this. But I think that we still have
23 time to do something for the summer, maybe
24 into the future. I think we can do it into
25 bipartisan way. So -- and I'm going to run

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1 out of time. But I'm going to vote no on
2 this.
3 But I was very compelled by what a
4 number of Senators on both sides of the aisle
5 said. And I'm hopeful that we'll have a
6 bipartisan, both-house bill that we can be
7 proud of and that the Governor will sign.
8 Because, you know, I mean we're New Yorkers,
9 and we're the best, and we'll figure it out.
10 But I'm going to vote no on this,

11 Mr. President. Thank you.
14 negative.
15 Senator Seward.
16 SENATOR SEWARD: Thank you,
17 Mr. President.
18 I rise in support of this
19 legislation. There is no question that the
20 high price of gasoline and diesel fuel is
21 killing families, businesses, and is having a
22 very negative impact on our state's economy.
23 And this is a problem that's much
24 larger than New York State. It's a national
25 and indeed an international problem and

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1 phenomenon of what we're seeing in terms of
2 these high prices.
3 And we in New York State, when it
4 comes to the price of petroleum products, we
5 are looking at a situation where so much of
6 this is beyond our control. We cannot do
7 anything about worldwide consumption and some
8 of these emerging economies, like in China and
9 India. We can't do anything about how much
10 oil is produced by the OPEC nations. We
11 cannot do much other than talk about the lack
12 of federal government action on this issue.
13 But there's one thing we can

14 control in New York, and that is the tax on
15 gasoline and diesel fuel. And that is what
16 this legislation is all about, taking some
17 action in an arena that we can control.
18 This legislation provides
19 admittedly short-term relief. It's a Band-Aid
20 on a larger problem. But it is relief,
21 meaningful relief for working families,
22 businesses, truckers, all those that need to
23 travel throughout this state.
24 And coming from an area that
25 depends very heavily on tourism for our

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1 economy, this legislation will be a big boost
2 for our local economy, as it will help people
3 to afford to visit Central New York and
4 throughout our state.
5 Some people talk about the loss of
6 revenue under this legislation. I say if we
7 don't move forward with this type of
8 legislation, we're really going to see losses
9 of revenue --
11 you, Senator. Thank you very much.
12 (Laughter.)
13 SENATOR SEWARD: Thank you.
14 You get my point, Mr. President. I
15 vote yes.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: I

17 certainly do. You got my point too.
18 (Laughter.)
20 Senator Maltese.
21 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President,
22 I first of all want to commend my good
23 colleague Senator Stachowski, because he comes
24 up with a commonsense approach. If this bill
25 is going to reduce the taxes on one of my

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1 constituents who wants to fill up with a tank
2 of gasoline, then I'm for it.
3 I commend Senator Adams, who says
4 this is not a Republican or a Democrat bill,
5 it is a commonsense bill and it is a bill that
6 can be supported.
7 On the other hand, I take issue
8 with a colleague who says -- who lectures us
9 for 15 minutes on everything that's wrong with
10 the bill and then says "On the other hand, I'm
11 voting for it."
12 I at least could admire a good
13 colleague who's not here in the chamber who
14 tells us everything that's wrong with it and
15 then says that he's going to vote against it.
16 On the other hand, he seems very, very
17 conversant and knowledgeable about every gas
18 station in New Jersey as he fills up his tank,
19 rather than here in New York.

20 Mr. President, when I'm asked by a
21 constituent "How did you vote on a bill that
22 would have reduced the taxes on gasoline for
23 my car for even a limited period of time?" --
24 Mr. President, I'm going to tell him I vote
25 aye.

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3 affirmative.
4 Senator Oppenheimer.
5 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Oh, good.
6 (Laughter.)
7 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Sorry.
8 Scratch that.
9 In a bipartisan fashion, I would
10 like to say that I wholeheartedly support what
11 Senator Marcellino was saying about the home
12 heating oil, where he has a bill, and I will
13 try to get on it, which will give a thousand
14 dollars during January and February to those
15 families that are less well-to-do and need
16 help with their heating oil.
17 The same should apply to this. If
18 we want to make sure that it is going to the
19 people that need it, we should give a $100
20 rebate to families earning $150,000 or, you
21 know, $175,000. Then you know the money is
22 getting to the right place.

23 My problem with this is that my
24 fear is that the money will not go to the
25 motorist and that, instead, it will go to the

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1 refiner, to the wholesaler. We have seen
2 that. We have seen the remarkable growth in
3 the profits of our oil companies just this
4 year.
5 So my feeling is that we have seen
6 empirical evidence that this does not work.
7 Because we had 15 counties that had been part
8 of the rebate, the cap on sales tax, and seven
9 of those counties found that the savings was
10 not going to the motorist --
12 you, Senator.
13 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: -- and the
14 savings was not going -- I'll finish the
15 sentence -- the savings was not going to
16 anyone --
18 you, Senator.
19 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: -- and not
20 to the government. And that's why they had to
21 increase their property sales tax.
22 So I'm going to be against it.
24 you, Senator. You will be recorded in the --
25 what, negative? How did you vote, Senator?

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1 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I'm against
2 it. No.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: No.
4 Recorded in the negative.
5 Senator Onorato.
6 SENATOR ONORATO: To explain my
7 vote, Mr. President.
8 I think that Senator Lanza has good
9 intentions. But as we all know, many good
10 deeds go unpunished.
11 This bill may have another side
12 effect when we start to take $620 million out
13 of the budget. It's got to be made up
14 somewhere, and I'm afraid that that somewhere
15 is going to fall on the shoulders of our
16 senior citizens, who may be deprived of some
17 of the benefits that they're being entitled to
18 along the year.
19 But I'm certainly not going to vote
20 against anything that's going to reduce taxes
21 on a short-term basis. But I also want to
22 remind people that there is definitely a
23 consequence to this bill.
24 I vote aye.

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1 you, Senator Onorato. You will be recorded in

2 the affirmative.
3 Senator Padavan.
4 SENATOR PADAVAN: Thank you,
5 Mr. President. I'm going to be very quick,
6 because I see most of our colleagues are
7 heading in different directions. There goes
8 another one right now.
9 But I want to thank Senator Lanza,
10 not only for the excellent manner in which he
11 presented this proposal to all of us and the
12 arguments he made, the many, many questions he
13 answered, but the fact that he did it over an
14 extended period of time and he did it with
15 style and grace.
16 Unfortunately, we had some members
17 who chose a different path. We can argue,
18 obviously, and debate and discuss -- that's
19 what we're here to do -- different points of
20 view on any issue. But when we stand up and
21 challenge the motivation of another member,
22 citing this bill as reflecting the stench of
23 political pandering, that's totally
24 uncalled-for. It has no place here.
25 And those who do that should be, I

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1 think, chastised. And that's why I'm standing
2 up. He's not here, though.
3 Some said what have we done for the
4 home heating fuel, for people who are paying

5 these high prices to heat their homes and so
6 on. Well, I remind you we eliminated the
7 state sales tax completely on home heating
8 energy fuel. And you all voted for it,
9 everybody. I didn't hear anything about
10 pandering then.
11 We eliminated the sales tax on
12 clothing entirely. Previously we had done it
13 for certain increments of time, for certain
14 thresholds, $110. And then we eliminated it
15 completely in the City of New York and
16 elsewhere. I didn't hear anybody say that was
17 pandering.
18 Why did we do those things? For
19 two basic reasons. We were helping our
20 constituents. And that's what we're supposed
21 to do in bad economic times. And we listened
22 to others, like the Mayor of the City of
23 New York, who said people are going over to
24 New Jersey to shop because the sales tax is
25 less.

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1 And as Senator Lanza pointed out
2 time after time, they're going over there to
3 buy gas because it's less --
5 you, Senator.
6 SENATOR PADAVAN: -- as a result
7 of the sales tax.

8 I thank you too, Senator.
9 (Laughter.)
10 SENATOR PADAVAN: You've done a
11 great job. If anybody hasn't said so lately,
12 let me do so now.
13 I vote aye.
16 affirmative.
17 Senator Breslin.
18 SENATOR BRESLIN: Thank you,
19 Mr. President.
20 I couldn't agree with Senator
21 Padavan more. In terms of a three-hour
22 debate, a three-hour debate back and forth,
23 Senator Lanza, you were graceful in answering
24 questions and trying to take the right
25 approach.

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1 But my conclusion is that nothing
2 I've heard today guarantees that those
3 refiners, that those distributors will pass on
4 that 32 cents they're going to gain through
5 the tax. And I've watched counties, in Albany
6 and around me, who have capped and seen the
7 prices stay where they are, no benefit to the
8 consumer. And I'm not convinced that that
9 won't happen here.
10 And if it doesn't, if it happens

11 here that it isn't passed on, come September,
12 as we've done in the past, we'll face a
13 $600 million deficit. And what do we do then?
14 We do as Senator Onorato said. We put it on
15 the backs of the middle class, the elderly,
16 the marginalized, and say: Go away, your
17 property taxes are increased. Or go away, you
18 have less health benefits.
19 So unless and until I am convinced
20 that that will be passed on -- because, you
21 know, even if it is passed on, we're talking
22 about people paying $3.70 a gallon. So I vote
23 no.

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1 you, Senator Breslin. You will be recorded in
2 the negative.
3 Senator Sabini.
4 SENATOR SABINI: Thank you,
5 Mr. President. To explain my vote.
6 I can see why there's a spirit of
7 debate, and I can't fault anyone for voting
8 yes or no on this legislation. But I have a
9 different -- perhaps different way of looking
10 at this.
11 Senator Connor mentioned how we
12 have people who are experts in the oil
13 industry in the White House and in the

14 number-two spot in Washington. I don't think
15 that's an accident. We don't have any oil
16 wells in this state that I know of. We don't
17 produce oil. Yet the price of crude oil by
18 the barrel is at record highs.
19 Last Friday the largest corporation
20 in the history of the planet we live on, Exxon
21 Mobil, announced a record profit for the
22 quarter -- and their stock fell. What does it
23 say about the economic times that we live in
24 and the examples that are set in our world
25 economy if, in making record profits,

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1 investors felt it wasn't enough on the backs
2 of the consumer?
3 So I think that we're pointing the
4 fingers at ourselves here and saying we should
5 cut $500 million from the General Fund. I
6 think the bill is a little cynically drafted.
7 A lot of people have been praising the bill.
8 It's a B print. The original money came out
9 of the Highway Maintenance Fund and out of the
10 MTA, and I guess maybe some people on the
11 other side wouldn't have been able to vote for
12 that, then, so we now made it the murky
13 General Fund, so no one really gets hurt.
14 Except we do. The people from the
15 State of New York will get hurt to the tune of
16 $500 million.
17 And Senator Volker said he noticed
18 who voted no on this. I'm noticing who's
19 voting yes on this.
20 Some people had no problem a couple
21 of weeks ago -- have no problem putting money
22 into the back end of a car by giving us money
23 back on the gas tax, but had no problem taking
24 8 bucks off the front end of the car if you're
25 driving in Manhattan. Some of the same people

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1 voting yes today were ready to vote for that,
2 and I didn't hear any hand-wringing then about
3 working people in New York, like some of us
4 had raised.
5 So now --
7 you very much, Senator.
8 SENATOR SABINI: -- I'm going to
9 be voting no. I don't think that there's any
10 good or bad in this. I think you can have a
11 difference of opinion. But I'll be casting my
12 vote in the negative.
14 you very much, Senator. You will be recorded
15 in the negative.
16 Senator Krueger.
18 Mr. President. I also want to say what a fine
19 job you've been doing today. Don't take that

20 off my two minutes.
21 So I started several hours ago
22 arguing that this bill was bad policy. And I
23 listened to most of the debate -- I got called
24 out for a few minutes. And again, I would
25 still make the argument with respect to

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1 Senator Lanza's bill that I'm not sure it's
2 good public policy to reduce the price of
3 petroleum. But that's not the argument we
4 were having today. That's not the argument
5 we're faced with right now.
6 If we want to reduce the price of
7 petroleum for drivers in New York State, I
8 would argue we want a bill that actually gives
9 them the money. And that if that was the
10 assignment, this wasn't the right bill.
11 So I have to vote against this for
12 two reasons, Mr. President. One, because I'm
13 not sure it's good public policy, even under
14 these difficult circumstances, to lower the
15 cost of gasoline. And before one more person
16 attacks my wonderful borough of Manhattan, we
17 pay more for gas than upstate New York.
18 Two, if you're going to do that,
19 then I would argue you want to do it through
20 your tax system, through an actual rebate that
21 goes to the people most in need. This is a
22 bill that research and science and history in

23 New York State show us will increase the
24 profit margin for the oil industry, not reduce
25 the prices at the pump.

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1 And my colleague Senator Connor,
2 Marty Connor, when he said the price will go
3 up 32 cents right before elections, is
4 absolutely correct. We won't see the price go
5 down, but we sure will see that 32 cents add
6 on the day this bill goes out of effect.
7 So I vote no for several reasons.
11 negative.
12 Senator Hassell-Thompson, to
13 explain her vote.
15 you, Mr. President. Just to explain my vote.
16 It is clear that we have had a long
17 and hearty debate here, and I want to go on
18 the record as saying very clearly that while I
19 think that the bill intent by Senator Lanza is
20 an excellent one -- and I don't think that
21 there was anything in my presentation or the
22 majority of the presentations that negated
23 that -- my concern was that I did not see in
24 the bill a way to ensure that what we say we
25 want to have happen will in fact happen.

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2073
1 And the reason I asked for the bill
2 to be held was so that we could create the
3 language that would help us to guarantee that.
4 Not to stall, but to ensure that what we say
5 we're doing is what is really going to happen.
6 Because when we don't deliver what we promise,
7 I think we do a greater disservice than when
8 we don't do anything at all.
9 So, Mr. President, even after three
10 and a half hours of sitting through this
11 debate, I continue to vote no without those
12 guarantees.
13 Thank you, sir.
16 negative.
17 Senator Stewart-Cousins, to explain
18 her vote.
19 SENATOR STEWART-COUSINS: Thank
20 you, Mr. President.
21 I rise -- and I do want to
22 congratulate my colleague Senator Lanza for
23 putting this forward. And I rise not only to
24 explain my vote, but I really want to explain
25 my vote.

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1 Because when I spend time in the

2 district, what I do is what everybody does.
3 We go around, we talk to our constituents. I
4 will say beyond a doubt that this issue is the
5 thing that really people are talking about.
6 If I talk to my seniors, they're concerned
7 about gas. If I talk to the young people,
8 they're concerned. Everyone understands there
9 is pain at the pump.
10 So I stand here today to say I'm
11 going to vote for this piece of legislation
12 because it's important that people understand
13 that we hear them and that we are responsive.
14 But I also want to explain that when I leave
15 here, the prices are not going to go down,
16 because there is work that we have to do.
17 There is work on the Assembly side,
18 there is work with the Governor, there is
19 work. Because people will have listened to
20 this for three hours and believe that 32 cents
21 will be off of their gas bill. That will not
22 be the case.
23 With the passion that Senator Lanza
24 has, I think that passion, with a bipartisan
25 effort, can get us somewhere, can get us

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2075
1 relief for our constituents, can get us beyond
2 a three-hour debate to the reality of really
3 abating the pain that people are experiencing
4 at the gas pump.

5 So yes, I will vote for this piece
6 of legislation. But I really am looking
7 forward to the day when we can indeed reduce
8 the taxes and indeed also find a way in our
9 legislation to penalize those who do not pass
10 on the savings.
11 I vote aye.
13 you, Senator.
14 And the last person I have listed
15 to explain his vote is Senator Robach, before
16 they put the lights out here.
17 SENATOR ROBACH: Can I have four
18 minutes, Mr. President?
19 (Laughter.)
20 SENATOR ROBACH: No, just joking.
21 I would say, very quickly, this has
22 been a good debate. It is good. We clearly
23 need a national policy. But I don't think
24 there's anything wrong with being populist at
25 times.

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1 People talk about bipartisan. I
2 don't know where people are living, I don't
3 know anybody that says we don't pay enough tax
4 in New York. This is something, the economy,
5 everybody knows if you lower the tax,
6 competition will lower it.
7 Would we like to get into the

8 profits of gas companies? Absolutely.
9 Hopefully they'll find a way to do that.
10 But in the interim this is, as has
11 been said before, one thing we can do to help
12 people. And not only help them. In upstate
13 New York it's just a fact -- yes, you can
14 conserve, you can do different things. But
15 certain people in their businesses are going
16 to drive to work, they're going to deliver
17 food, they're going to deliver medicine. Kids
18 commute to college. That's the way it is.
19 They don't have a choice.
20 And this policy will help young and
21 old, working families, businesses, private
22 people, everything. This is a great tax to
23 cut.
24 And I want to say on the record
25 just the opposite -- you're right, we

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1 shouldn't take it off in September. We should
2 go right through. With rising gas prices,
3 rising food prices, adjustable-rate mortgages,
4 talking about the economy, we ought to use the
5 rainy day fund, whatever it is, because in my
6 district it's pouring for those people.
7 Let's do something that's popular
8 instead of worrying about policies at other
9 levels of government and things we can't
10 control. This is why I'm very happy to

11 applaud Senator Lanza and vote yes. People
12 want it, people need it.
13 Do I have any time left? No, I'm
14 only kidding.
15 (Laughter.)
16 SENATOR ROBACH: I vote in the
17 affirmative. Thank you, Mr. President.
19 you, Senator.
21 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
22 the negative on Calendar Number 1086 are
23 Senators Breslin, Connor, Duane, Gonzalez,
24 Hassell-Thompson, L. Krueger, Montgomery,
25 Oppenheimer, Parker, Perkins, Sabini, Sampson,

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2078
1 Schneiderman, Serrano and Stavisky.
2 Ayes, 46. Nays, 15.
4 bill is passed.
5 Senator Griffo, that completes the
6 controversial reading of the calendar.
7 SENATOR GRIFFO: Thank you,
8 Mr. President.
9 I have a couple of motions.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: All
11 right.
12 SENATOR GRIFFO: Mr. President,
13 on page 41 I offer the following amendments to

14 Calendar Number 594, Senate Print 3852A, by
15 Senator Flanagan, and ask that said bill
16 retain its place on Third Reading Calendar.
18 amendments are received, and the bill will
19 retain its place on the Third Reading
20 Calendar.
22 on page 45 I offer the following amendments to
23 Calendar Number 682, Senate Print 2879, by
24 Senator DeFrancisco, and ask that said bill
25 retain its place on Third Reading Calendar.

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2 amendments are received, and the bill will
3 retain its place on the Third Reading
4 Calendar.
6 is there any further business before the desk?
7 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: No,
8 there is not.
9 SENATOR GRIFFO: There being
10 none, then I move that we adjourn until
11 Monday, May 12th, at 3:00 p.m., with
12 intervening days being legislative days.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: On
14 motion, the Senate stands adjourned until
15 Monday, May 12th, at 3:00 p.m., intervening
16 days being legislative days.

17 Good night and good luck.
18 (Whereupon, at 3:16 p.m., the
19 Senate adjourned.)
20
21
22
23
24
25

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Top of Form 1

1 NEW YORK STATE SENATE

4 THE STENOGRAPHIC RECORD

9 ALBANY, NEW YORK

18 SENATOR THOMAS P. MORAHAN, Acting President

19 STEVEN M. BOGGESS, Secretary

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

2 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: The

3 Senate will come to order.

4 I ask for everyone present to

5 please rise and repeat with me the Pledge of

7 (Whereupon, the assemblage recited

8 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)

9 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: In the

10 absence of clergy, I ask all of us to bow our

11 heads for a moment of silence.

12 (Whereupon, the assemblage

13 respected a moment of silence.)

14 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN:

15 Reading of the Journal.

16 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,

17 Tuesday, May 6, the Senate met pursuant to

18 adjournment. The Journal of Monday, May 5,

19 was read and approved. On motion, Senate

21 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN:

22 Without objection, the Journal stands approved

25 Messages from the Assembly.

1 Messages from the Governor.

2 Reports of standing committees.

3 Reports of select committees.

4 Communications and reports from

6 Motions and resolutions.

8 SENATOR BONACIC: Thank you,

10 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: You're

12 SENATOR BONACIC: On behalf of

13 Senator O. Johnson, on page number 49 I offer

14 the following amendments to Calendar Number

15 770, Senate Print Number 7171A, and I ask that

16 the bill retain its place on the Third Reading

18 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: The

19 amendments are received and adopted, and the

20 bill will retain its place on the Third

22 SENATOR BONACIC: Thank you,

24 I move, on behalf of Senator

25 Marcellino, that the following bill on the

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

1 order of first report be committed to the

3 Calendar Number 1013.

4 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: So

6 SENATOR BONACIC: Good job,

7 Mr. President. Thank you.

8 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: Thank

9 you, Senator Bonacic.

11 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,

12 there will be an immediate meeting of the

13 Rules Committee in the Majority Conference

15 ACTING PRESIDENT MORAHAN: There

16 will be an immediate meeting of the Rules

17 Committee in the Majority Conference Room.

18 The Senate will stand at ease.

19 (Whereupon, the Senate stood at

20 ease at 11:14 a.m.)