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    Prologue Magazine
    275 views171 pages
    In May 1975, the Watergate Special Prosecution Force (WSPF) decided that it was necessary to question former President Richard M. Nixon in connection with various investigations being conducted by the WSPF. Mr. Nixon was questioned over the period of two days, June 23 and June 24, 1975, and the testimony was taken as part of various investigations being conducted by the January 7, 1974, Grand Jury for the District of Columbia (the third Watergate Grand Jury). Chief Judge George Hart signed an order authorizing that the sworn deposition of Mr. Nixon be taken at the Coast Guard Station in San Mateo, California with two members of the grand jury present. The deposition was taken in California because Mr. Nixon’s doctor had determined that Mr. Nixon was unable to travel to Washington, DC, for health reasons. For more information on the testimony, go to the National Archives web page on the Nixon Grand Jury testimonials: http://www.archives.gov/research/investigations/watergate/nixon-grand-jury/index-original.html

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    Folder 9/23: Binder #3-Tape transcripts

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    In May 1975, the Watergate Special Prosecution Force (WSPF) decided that it was necessary to question former President Richard M. Nixon in connection with various investigations being conducted by the WSPF. Mr. Nixon was questioned over the period of two days, June 23 and June 24, 1975, and the testimony was taken as part of various investigations being conducted by the January 7, 1974, Grand Jury for the District of Columbia (the third Watergate Grand Jury). Chief Judge George Hart signed an order authorizing that the sworn deposition of Mr. Nixon be taken at the Coast Guard Station in San Mateo, California with two members of the grand jury present. The deposition was taken in California because Mr. Nixon’s doctor had determined that Mr. Nixon was unable to travel to Washington, DC, for health reasons. For more information on the testimony, go to the National Archives web page on the Nixon Grand Jury testimonials: http://www.archives.gov/research/investigations/watergate/nixon-grand-jury/index-original.html

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    275 views171 pages

    Folder 9/23: Binder #3-Tape Transcripts

    Uploaded by

    Prologue Magazine
    In May 1975, the Watergate Special Prosecution Force (WSPF) decided that it was necessary to question former President Richard M. Nixon in connection with various investigations being conducted by the WSPF. Mr. Nixon was questioned over the period of two days, June 23 and June 24, 1975, and the testimony was taken as part of various investigations being conducted by the January 7, 1974, Grand Jury for the District of Columbia (the third Watergate Grand Jury). Chief Judge George Hart signed an order authorizing that the sworn deposition of Mr. Nixon be taken at the Coast Guard Station in San Mateo, California with two members of the grand jury present. The deposition was taken in California because Mr. Nixon’s doctor had determined that Mr. Nixon was unable to travel to Washington, DC, for health reasons. For more information on the testimony, go to the National Archives web page on the Nixon Grand Jury testimonials: http://www.archives.gov/research/investigations/watergate/nixon-grand-jury/index-original.html

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    of 171

    I

    f
    W
    \.0
    3
    JUNE 23, 19 72 FROM 10:04 TO 11:39 AM
    :
    PRESIDENT:
    HALDEH.W:
    PRESIDENT:
    HALDEMA.""l :
    PRESIDENT:
    I think-- that' s fine. Nmv, on the imresti-
    gation, you knml, the Democratic break-in
    thing, ",e' re back to the--in the, the
    problem area because the FBI is not under
    control, because Gray- doesn't exactly k.now
    h m'1 to control them, and they have, their
    investigation is n ow leading into
    some productive areas, b ecause they've
    been able to trace the money, not
    the money itself, but through the bank,
    you know, sources - the banker himself. And,
    and it goes in some directions we don't
    want it to go. Ah, also there have been_
    some things, like an informant came in off
    the street co the FBI in Hiami, \'1ho was a
    photographer or has a friend who is a
    photographer who devleoped some films
    thr o ugh this guy, Barker, and the f ilms had
    pictures of Democratic Nat ional Committee
    letter head and things. So
    I guess, so it's things like that that are
    gonna, that are filtering in. Nitchell
    came up with yesterday, and John Dean
    analyzed very carefully l a st night and con-
    eludes, concurs now with N.itchell 's recom-
    mendation that the only \'1ay to solve this,
    and we're set up bealltifully to do
    ah, in that and that the only network
    that paid any attention to it last night
    was NBC they did a massive s tory on the
    Cuban
    That's right.
    thing.
    Right .
    That the way to handle this now is for us to
    have Walters call Pat Gray and just say,
    "Stay the hell out of this this is ah,
    business here we don't \vant you to go any
    further on it." That's not an unusual
    development,
    Urn huh.
    4
    JUNE 23, 1972 FROf.! 10:04 TO 11:39 At"!

    PRESIDENT:
    HALDEM.'W :
    PRESIDENT:
    PP..ESIDENT:
    EALDEHl-.N:
    PRESIDENT:
    :
    PRESIDENT:
    HALDEHA..'i :
    PRESIDENT:
    HALDEHA.,."i :
    PRESIDENT:
    and, uh, that would care of it.
    about Pat Gray, ah, you mean he
    doesn't want to?
    Pat does want to. He doesn't know how to,
    and he doesn't have, he doesn't have any
    basis for doing it. Given this, he will
    then have the b as is. He'll call Hark Felt
    in, and the two of them and !1ark Felt
    wants to cooperate because
    Yeah.
    he's ambitious
    Yeah.
    An, he'll call him in and say, "We've got
    the signal from across the river to, to put
    the hold on this." And that fit
    rather wefull because the FBI agents who are
    Horking the case. a"c this point. feel that I S
    what it is. This is CIA.
    But they've triaced the money to 'em.
    Well they have, they've traced to a name,
    but they haven't gotten to the guy yet.
    Would it be somebody here?
    - - - :".. -... :-. , ".-
    Ken Dahlberg.
    Who the hell is Ken Dahlberg?
    He's ah,he gave $25,000 in Hinnesota and
    ah, the check went directly in to this, to
    this guy Barker.
    11aybe he's a . bum.
    '.
    7
    JUNE 23, 1972 FRm! 10:04 TO 11:39 A!'1
    PRESIDENT:
    HALDEHA..."1:
    PRESIDENT:
    HALDE!'1AN:
    PRESIDENT:
    HALDElfll..N :
    PRESIDENT:
    PRESIDEN"T :
    HALDEHAN:.
    PRESIDEN"T :
    :
    PRESIDENT:
    All right, fine, I understand it all.
    We won't second-guess Mitchell and the
    rest. God it wasn't Colson.
    The FBI interviewed Colson yesterday.
    They determined that would be a good
    thing to do.
    Urn hurn.
    Ah, to have him take a
    Urn hum.
    An interrogation, ,,hich he did, and that,
    the FBI guys working the c ase had con-
    cluded that there were one or two possibilitie 1
    one, that this was a White House, they
    don't think that there is anything at
    the Election Committee, they think it was
    ei ther a House operation and they had
    some obscure reasons for it, non political,
    Uh hu..'1.
    or it was a ...
    Cuban thing--
    Cubans and the CIA. And after their
    interrogation. of, of
    Colson.
    Colson, yesterday, they concluded it was
    not the Wh i te House, but are nm.. convinced
    it is a CIA thing, so the CIA turnoff
    would
    liell, not sure of their analysis, I'm
    not going t o get that involved. I'm
    (unintelligible)
    No, sir. We don't want you to.
    '- -

    24
    JlJNE 23,1972 FRO:>! 10:04 TO 11:39 AH
    PRESIDENT:
    HALDEHAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    :
    PRESIDENT:
    :
    PRESIDENT:
    F.ALDENA.'1 :
    PRESIDENT:
    and it may be too, that we misjudged
    the dates. You read i t through and
    particularly read the analysis
    and see what I mean. I mean, it 's, i t' s
    even realizing '68 was much better
    organized.
    Um hum.
    It may be we did a better job in '60.
    It just may be. It may tell us something.
    Any'.vay, \lQuld you check it over?
    Yep.
    (Unintelligible) check another thing.
    (unintelligible) HoscO\ ",orked out the
    book and Chuck Lichtenstein ( unintelligible)
    He was, I'm not sure if he still is.
    Could you find out from him ",hat chapters of
    the book he worked on. I didn't
    I don't, HOSCO'" Harked on the heart attack
    thing. I did most of the dictating on the
    last two, but I've been curious. I know,
    I know Lichtenstein Harked on the one thing,
    but could you find out which chapters he
    worked on. Also find out where Moscow is
    What's become of him he's doing
    in ten years. (unintelligible) we really
    ought to say hello to him (unintelligible)
    and we might find it useful for our purposes,
    future, despite the agony and all that.
    You'll find this extremely interesting,
    read (unintelligible).
    I've read, read that a number of times
    (unintelligible) different context
    (unintelligible)
    Ah, I would say another ting . Bud Brown
    (unintelligible) on my (unintelligible)
    did you read it? (Unintelligible)
    c an(ijr,at-ps.
    I
    I
    r
    -----1-'(--.J
    IV
    IV
    o
    I
    IV
    ".
    / ,
    23 , ] 972 2: 20 TO :::: /, P.ii.
    noise)
    Fell , it's no probler:1. Uh biO of in,
    state of health but
    it's kind of interesting. Wa lters said
    that , uh, make a point. I didn't mention
    Hunt at the opening. I just said that,
    that, uh , this thing I;hich l'le give direction
    to we're go nna create some very
    potential because they were
    ploring leads that led b.J.c}: i nto to, uh,
    I'm afraid it will harmf ul to CIA,
    harmful to the government. (telephone rings)
    But , didn' t hc:'/e an:l"ttlir:g to ,";i th , \'lith,
    with (uninte lligible ) kind of thing.
    (Answers telephone) Hello? Chuck, I
    vondered if you would , give John
    a call . He's on his trip. I
    want him to r ead the papers
    Monday about this quota thing and
    52.:" , uh , he net , uh , I'.'e're genna
    do this , but , but , I checked , uh, I asked
    you the situation, and you personally
    c hecked your calendar a nd made , have a n
    understanding . It ' s only temporary (unin-
    telligible). It affect (unintelligible)
    people (unintelligible)." Okay . I didn't want
    him t o read it in the papers . Good. Bye.
    (Hangs up telephone)
    (Urri::1 te lligible)
    (Unintelligible) He said
    I think did , too. HeIss said uh,
    had no , (u.nintellisible) ai1C \.2:1 ,
    G?.-c.'J cal :"cd 2:1d sLlid , uh , yest'2rday T 2.nd saiC!.
    un , that he thought
    :2 : II ..
    Gray for h iD and
    s a.i. d:- f U:'l, ..:.. "':,:e ri .;nt:
    ' ...: C E;. CI ..:'\ Oi)f:!:;::-2.i::.ior:. ..
    said thL-it?
    Yeah I (l!-:cl Helr:1s said nothi!lg
    \."r e f v e' go'c ct this. r)oir.t
    tt
    2.:. ::'0 uh I u:-!..- t.his
    involved I I:s l! !:"e lcc \:s to' li]:.e that s
    \;il2.t He did." Some da::>Il t:-:in0 v!here
    h ad - - (u .... ,intelligible).
    We c an do about it -- this would r equire
    2
    at all a nd, uh , that Has end of that
    convers ation . I fixed it so (unintelligible)
    we don't , so (unintelligible) we don't
    (u21i r:. to 11 5.gib le ).. He sai c, l,-7 e ll " the
    i s that it tracks back to t he Say of
    Pi gs. It tracks back t o other -- i f tjeir
    leads out to people w:-:o had no involvement
    i n this except by the or ccnnections
    l
    but yeu set the areas t:hat a. t ( u..'1i!l-
    telligible ) to be raised . The whole probl em
    of this , thi s fellow Hunt , uh
    So a t that point kind of got
    ?ict-:..:.re) ki nd of like the picture ..
    . he , he said , he saie., "\'I'e '11 be very
    happy to be he l pful to, ah, you knm-l, get
    e"',rerything y'ou \'.1 an t . I like to kno-r;..r
    reason for being hel pful ." And i t may
    have ap?eared he wasn 't get it
    explicitly (uninte lligible) in or out (unin-
    telligible). So he sai d fin e
    l
    and uh , Walters.
    I dO!'l't knmJ wh ether \V'e ca::: do it. ters
    . (La ughs) ( Unint8lligible)
    \'i al ters is gonua make a c all to Gray.
    (Unintel ligible) that's t he " ay we put it, t::at ' s
    the \,"ay ,,-e left it, and, l,n , ( unintelligible).
    :)\11 d tha t t hou::;::? Ho'\'; 'Joule. -- for
    e x aD?lc, if -:' hey 1-.- e got gu:-y- fro::7-, JU:1.inte:ligi;:'I.e. }
    somebody from bank to be
    hjre to =oun t the inventory .
    '"
    ,p.
    co
    I
    I-'
    o
    lJl
    IV
    I
    f
    1--::---====----- -- - --- -----
    PRESI DENT :
    COLS00l:
    PRESIDENT:
    COLS00l :
    PRESIDENT :
    COLSON:
    PR2SIDENT:
    COLSON :
    P?-ESIDENT:
    COLSON:
    PRESIDENT:
    COLSON:
    PRESIDENT:
    COLS00l :
    PRESIDENT:
    TRAI:\SCRIPT OF A RECORDING OF 1-,. 11EETING
    THE PRESIDENT NW CHARLES H .
    FEBRUARY 13, 1973 AT 9 : 48
    TO 10:52 /11'1
    (Unintelligible) that 's come from the other-
    you can't get Webster there ah , well you
    need a man. Would you keep Gray?
    Yes, sir I would now.
    Now you could send him to the Senate for
    confirmation.
    Ah, yep. I would.

    \'iell, because f i rst of all, I-I could back
    him up \'lith a very strong Deputy. Ah,
    because I think if you took Grayout now,
    with all of the turmoil in the Bureau and
    every ah-, the- the everything that 's goin'
    on in that Bureau is being leaked out.
    Yeah. Well, how could we stop it?
    (Unintelligible)
    An, by creating certainity. You see, I'm
    afraid one of the problems of it is that
    there isn 't anybody who knows they're
    insured. Ah, now ..
    hno's the Deputy you have in mind?
    Well, I'd suggest that Bill Sullivan is ah-
    he 's ah
    They say he's (unintelligible) .
    Oh, he is.
    He was (unintelligible) again.
    Well, he was our man, that's ...
    I knew
    2
    FEBRUARY 13, 1973, AT 9:48 TO 10:52 AM

    PRESIDENT:
    COLSON:
    PRESIDENT:
    COLSON:
    PRESID:2NT:
    COLSON:
    PRESIDENT :
    COLSON:
    PRESIDENT:

    PRESIDENT:
    COLSON:
    PRESIDENT:
    Ah, Al Haig has called ne yesterday and said,
    Jesus, ya know, get Sullivan back in there.
    Ah, Haig is very high on Sullivan. I
    don't know Sullivan- but I know of so many
    people who do think highly of him, and
    that those are all the people I.
    In what way (unintelligible)
    No, sir. I don't think so.
    Did they also make your reflection on Gray
    --Vesco--(unintelligible) investigation of
    Watergate appearance?
    Yeah. I think in a way it is_ And ah, you
    might \'lant to move Gray at the end of the
    year, but ah, I' d get through this year
    \vithout, without rockin' that boat and I
    would try to get in ah, confirm Gray he's
    after all-, Gray's loyalty to, to you.
    Totally
    Totally. So, give him the strength and back
    him up with som- couple people and ah, make -
    snre he- make sure he undl2rstands \'lhat he
    has to do. I mean there- ah, the most
    important thing over there is to be God
    sure th-that the Department and that
    Bureau understand that ah, we've got enough
    troubles with the Hill without creating any
    more for ourselves.
    Right
    this is a partisan game. This is no
    longer Law Enforcement or Investigation.
    This i? part of.
    Sure. What'd you mean, Watergate?
    \vatergate.
    Oh, hell, yes.
    And ah, I-I read this.
    (Unintelligible) partisan prC3S news never
    heard of (unintelligible) Ehrlichnan. God
    damn racist. (Unintelligible) everything.
    (Laughs)
    --
    --- - - ------
    3
    13 , 1973, AT 9:48 TO 10:52 AN
    CO!:..SO:-J :
    :
    COLSON:
    PRESIDENT:
    COLSON :
    PRESIDENT :
    COLSON:
    PRESIDC: NT :

    PRESIDENT :

    PIESIDENT:
    :
    Hysterical. But they're gonna make
    a, they'll have a political circus. Ah,
    but it i s ..
    ReI:lernoer how they built up that poor jackass
    Ra lph Landers?
    Yeah
    (Unintelligible) When he--McCarthy built
    him up as a great saint, poor bastard.
    Well, he's an idiot.
    Well.
    He's a sweet guy, Ralph Landers. (Unintelligible)
    Well, no, he was nothin '.
    But he took HcCarthy out.
    HcCarthy's great cOI:lment about bring the
    b utterfly net (unintelligible) (Laughs)
    Ch, God, I wish we had, I wish we had more
    of Pat Gray's. Well any way, that's that.
    Oh, so long- I got I
    feel that there's a couple of good guys
    who work around here, everyone around here
    forgets the God damn thing in the White
    (uni ntelligible) (noise). (cough)
    You j ust figure you're gonna have s - ,
    leaks, television, press- and just say
    that's underneath us. (cough) Ah, ah,
    hO\>/ do you feel? Is t here anything else
    you could do?
    Well, the only thing you can do Mr. President.
    I mean if you can't, you've got to get for
    example Magruder's operation, Haldeman, and
    Ehrlichman and the rest, Dean,
    Yes
    if they all get into this, they're gonna go
    through the ITT thing (unintelligible)
    - - - - ~ ~ - - ~ - - - - ~ - - -- ----
    I-'
    o
    I-'
    W
    I
    I-'
    o
    PRESIDZN'I' :

    PRESIDeNT:
    COLSON:
    PRESIDENT:
    COLSON:
    PRESIDSNT :
    COLSON:
    PRESIDENT:
    COLSON :
    PRESIDENT:
    COLSON:
    PRESIDENT:
    ; ;
    J
    T fU\NSCRIPT 0:2 A PECO::l.D:;:nl;
    THE P RGSIDENT AIm CIll\RLF.S COLSOc; ,
    I N THE OVAL OFFI CE FEBRUARY 14 ,
    1973, FROM 10 :13 TO 10 : 49 P.M.
    (Noi se ) Going on your way ?
    Yes, s ir . I think I've just been--
    p acking and, uh, getting briefed. '.
    Ye ah. Yeah.
    . by the State Department .
    Yeah.
    I've finished up my office work.
    Well, I think when you're there -- now,
    the thing to do is to try to put out
    o f your mind all of the problems in which
    I--You got to fish the se things out--We
    always do. He (unintelligible)--
    Watergate and all tha t sort of thing--is
    going -to be, be the;:e. It's gonna be
    (unintelligible) for ,..;hat it is. And
    I think that you gotta take, t a ke periods
    like this, (unintelligible)--three weeks .
    be off and it'll be about three
    ,,,eeks.
    Good. Just get out there and don't read
    any papers, and---
    well, (unintelligible)
    I think, (unintelligible)
    It's, uh--
    The _only paper is basically the
    Washington Post, as far as I can see . .
    Damn, worse than the Hashington Post.
    I--characterize the Post, the Tirnes--The
    New York Times.
    .. ". , '
    " .. .. ---
    i' O H m
    6
    14, 1973, FRm1 10:13 TO 10:49 Al"!
    P?ESIDE?iT :
    COLSON:
    PRESIDE,JT:
    COLSON:
    PRESIDE!, T:
    COI.SON:
    PRESIDENT:
    COLSO.'l :
    PP..ESIDENT:
    COLSON:
    ?P.ESIDENT:
    COLSON:
    :
    The thing is th
    Yeah.
    They just--that's something we just can't
    get into.
    Hell, you're--
    Today as for too, like, like a
    story Colson this morning that
    Liddy had the-- , the FBI Internal- Security
    taps. But I can't believe that's true. I
    me a n, I , uh, I don' t Y:nm, they're
    talking about.
    If uhf that cculd h ave been true. -They,
    they had that security unit set: up in the
    basement of the EOB ,.rhich Bud Krogh ran.
    Oh, I see, they were, at time, in
    country--
    Oh sure. And they were, that Has perfectly
    legitimate. I mean the kind
    of thing they were hired to do
    Hi1i!l\ hmro.
    Uhf i nvestigating the authenticity of
    (Unintelligible)
    of the Dita Beard letter wa s was a _
    perfectly legitimate thing. fu,d. uh,
    I told the FBI about that--there wasn't
    anything to hide. _ Uh, the thing you can't
    do is you can't get part way
    You can't start talking about one aspect
    of a relationship .
    Yeah.
    14 , 1973, FROM 10:13 TO 10:49 MI
    PRESID2NT:
    COLSO::;; :
    PRZSIDEHT:
    :
    COLSON:

    PRESIDENT:-

    PRESIDENT:
    COLSON:
    PRESI!JENT:
    PRESIDENT:
    Right .
    .. . to talk about.
    YO'.:! knO'N t:he 'ching about it of course is that
    yo u have this enOl.'"""mOllS differ-diffic'-'.l t
    double , double standard in the press , for
    instance. You can take t his abO'.1t
    today about the-- that they had acc ess to the
    confiden-tial memoranda. Eml, the hell
    is that comi ng from, I ask ya? See
    got this and they're dripping i t up 1it.tle,
    by little . Hho-- \-!he re are they getting
    thase stories,
    Bureau.
    The FBI?
    (Unintelligible)
    Did they q uesti on the FBI (unintelligible)
    how di d th8 FaI knm-.. ?
    "Hell, the FBI "Tou;l.d have been in
    have been sending that information over to
    Liddy and Hunt.
    r-trnm hmrn.
    And, uh, every leak we've had, President ,
    has been out o f the Bureau, uh, that 's one
    of the reasons that when you asked me my
    opini on yesterd ay , I, I don ' t know whether--
    About Gray.
    I don't know whether Gray's the best man or
    not, but 1--
    (Unintelligible)
    Yes, certainly. Let him go in and fire some
    of the bastards that he thinks have, have
    uh, (lli,intellig ible)--
    Yeah.

    15
    FEBRUl\RY 14 ; 19 73, FRml 10: 13 TO 10 : 49 AH
    COI,sm.J :
    P RESI DENT:
    COLSON:
    PRESIDEnT:
    COLSON:
    :
    CO:::'SON:
    :
    COLSON:
    PRESIDENT:
    COLSON:
    PRES I DEN""T :
    The 'ihole da..rn,,--
    (Un i ntel l igible) on the other hand t hey
    go o u t (u..., in-telligible) . Nhat tL'1en?
    Hell, the h el l, t hey're talking nmv . I f --
    there isn't a ny thing t hat I e ver told
    the Bureau that I haven' t s een C02e cut
    print. And, uh , it doe s , it really doe s
    raise questi ons about t he integrity o f the
    Bureau's process. You h ave to be a little
    careful what you--
    (Unintelligible). Hell, when Hoo---.rer Has
    there it didn't leak.
    It didn't happen?
    Did not happen.
    Oh, hell no. They were scared stiff.
    I, I could tall: to Hoover about <:1 11 sorts of
    things and I talked to him very f reely over
    the years and there it never, ne ver
    out.
    Nell, because they knet" that if a nybody
    talked--
    To the p ress.
    to them. And, uh--
    You take, you t ake the (unintelligible}
    make a smart thing-, big thi ng out of so:;te
    contribution He received that wou ld sort o f
    (unintelligible) more than a five thousand
    dollar contribution. You knO'." that Hasn ' t
    really a blunder. Has it? Good God! ":!-len
    our people s?e nt Dillion dollar s
    where the hell (unintelligible).
    .. -
    NVOW.S69I4
    19
    FEBRUARY 14, 1973, FR01-1 10:13 TO 10:1.9 AH
    PRESIDENT:
    COLSON:
    PRESIDENT:
    :

    PP.ESIDE!iT:
    COLSON:
    PRESIDENT:
    COLSON:
    PRESIDENT:
    COLSON:
    (PiUVILEGED 11ATERI.f\L n;:;LETED)
    011, I see. Don't the papers. Forget
    the \"ho1e da::m thing. Let her g':J.
    Hell, ''le'll . Hc'l.l, uh , ve'll tough it
    (unintelligible) through and, uh, ccne
    out on top as we ahlays have.
    I mean, this is a tough one, because
    so iT.any players, and so God-daIl'_'1 sad I
    think of those seven guy
    So do 1.
    are involved, you
    Jesus Christ, they did it with good
    intentions (unintelliq:ble). Of course,
    r guess they, they :T,ust have knct-.-n that
    they had to take this kind of risk
    (unintelligible)
    I think that they've taken that all
    their lives. I don't think that's --
    Yeah. They've been they've been
    doing this sort of thir.g--
    Yeah, r think they got--'-Iell--
    (Unintelligible)
    Referred
    (Unintelligible)
    President I thank you for your (unin-
    telligible)
    608Id!JI44S99g
    ---- ~ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ~
    w
    N
    o
    FiIV, /[ L
    TRANSC!1IP'I' OF A !1ECORDmG OF A EEETn;G
    BE'I'HEE?; 'rHE PRESIDENT A?m JOHN DEAr! C?<I
    27, l QJ3, FRO:';: 3: 55 TO P .I'ft .
    . "-"-. '. '....
    '-.
    .,1
    T?.LU';SCRU'r OF A R:::CORDIlJG 0:5' A :,:EETING
    B2'::' .. SC::,! TEE P?ES:::D=:r :T ! '.!:D JO:-i:: DEAl) O?J
    27 , 1 973 . 3 : 55 TO 4 : 20 P . M.
    Pi1ES IDEl-i'l' :
    DEAN :
    :
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT :
    D2P .. N:
    DSAH :
    PP":::SID3}JT:
    DSAN:
    PF..ESIDENT:
    :
    Good John, how are you?
    Pretty good .
    I, uh, discarded some
    won 't interrupt us (unintelligible) uh,
    uh, did you get your talk with Kleindienst
    yet?
    I just had a good talk with him.
    Yeah , fine . Have you f,ot him, .uh ,
    properly, the uh--
    I think, I think he is.
    properly--ah , has he taH::ed
    yet to Baker?
    he hasn ' t , he, ub, he called Sam Ervin
    and offered to cone visit with both he and
    Baker . And, uh, t hat was done last week.
    Uh, huh.
    But he thought that timing b e bad to
    call Baker prior to the joint meeting. So
    he says after I have that jOint meeti.ng,
    I'll start working my relationship with
    Baker.
    Well, Baker left with me that he was
    going to,going to set up a jOint meeti ng
    well, anyway (uninte lligible). I see . So
    Kleindienst has talked. to, uh, uh, he
    has talked to Ervin and Ervin said--
    (unintelligible).
    Ervin has left it dangling and said, "I'll
    be back in touch \Ii th you. " Vh, I think
    what, what disturbs me a little bit about
    Baker was his move to put his man in as
    minority counsel, so quickly, wit hout any
    consultation as h e
    And I'm told this man may be a disaster
    the mi nority counsel. -
    - ----._----
    r
    y" 4rtt
    27. 1973, FROM 3 :55 TO 4:20 P.M. 2
    FRESI DE1I T:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    P?.:2:SIDEr.rT :
    D:LAN :
    P?.ESIDENT:
    PFESIDENT:
    'e
    He is? What do you t o , is he--?
    Well he's a, well I can't knock age, he ts
    30, he's 30 years of age, he doesn't know
    a thing about Washington .
    Yeah.
    So we'll have to--
    Baker, Baker says that he puts the blame
    on the Hhi te House. He says, .. rhat chamacallits
    his name, Korologos called him and suggested
    somebody else, that was a g reat mistake.
    Course I didn't knO'.J anything about that"
    apparently.
    Wel l Bake r apparently is qui te open in his
    felicity I i'iant to counsel "lith you all, and
    I don't i'rant to move until I've told you "That
    11m going to do, and then he did just the
    reverse. So it I',as curious: one, that he
    wanted a meeting with you. Uh, secondly:
    uh, he suggested Kleindienst as a
    conciui t ...
    That's correct.
    . and there is hope, I think tha.t, uh" he may
    try to keep an eye on this thing and not let
    it get into a total circus up there.
    'vlho? Baker.
    Baker, Baker might.
    Well that's what he ' indicated, he indicated but
    of course, of course yrith the regard to his,
    uh, situat ion, his position tnough, and \-r'ith
    regard to Kleindienst's pOSition, I, uh, I shook
    Kleindienst up a bit but (unintelligible ) really
    is the, is the fello,-, who ' s going to get hurt
    most out of this (unintelligible) is Mitchell.
    Said others are gonoa ge t hurt too, but
    is, ah , the real problem is whether or not
    Mitchell will --uh, get him on perjury.
    # &2 "
    27, 1973. 3: 55 4: 20
    :
    ??':=:SID:SXT:
    :
    PR::S I D31'IT:
    Dr.:":'.:'T:
    :
    PP"=:SIDENT:

    :
    Burn ..
    I s a id no':r ah , pe !:"j ury l 5 0. aITL'1.
    hard thing to p!:"ove too, f ortunately. But,
    uh, if you , uh (un i n t e llig ible) from
    popp in' I said, well, I , I, 1 t alked
    ( unintell igibl e) di d y a ever t a lk t o Mitchell
    a bout this . Ne ver has .
    No.
    He says he has never talke d to him.
    go into the Mexi c a n part of it with
    or did you get ...
    1,<[ell, 1. ..
    . . . i nto any sub s tance at a ll?
    Did yc::.
    Kleindi2::-:.st
    I've alway s, I've braced
    in th2 past about, you know, the potential
    implications of \',hat this '.-Thole investigaticn
    the Bureau conducted, what the U.S. Att orney ' s
    Office was doing ...
    That's right.
    . what t he trial meant ...
    That's right .
    ... 1 think this could come to haunt
    That's r ight.
    If it gets out of hand, I don't want to get
    into a lot of specifics.
    Yeah.
    1, at this last just sat with him
    and said Dick, I said , 1fI don't think I oug::''::
    to brief you on everyt hing 1 know. 1 don' t
    think ...
    That's right.
    . .. th?t's the way to proceed. But I see
    you going down the ... :rong track, _ I tIT! goi ng
    to have to tell you '.'Thy."
    27 , 1973, 3 :55 TO 4:20 P . IL
    D::;l\?J:
    PRESID:::;:T:
    :
    PP3SIDE:IT:
    DEAN:
    P:1ESIDE?TI';

    Urn Good, good. did he S2Y?
    He said , 1! I agree, that I s t ,he 1'ray it should
    stan.d ."
    On the Executive Privilege one, I with,
    uh, talked to John Ehrlichnan a little and
    that the last which, un, should be
    modified so that it I might have to
    say if I were asked at a press conference, he ' ll
    indicate what it, but in, in a nut shell, uh,
    rather than Simply, flatly say that I think that
    what we shoul d say is uh, t hat uh, that uh,
    the uh, that members of the President 's I
    will not a formal session of the
    CO:2"nission, committees. Hm'rever, under
    appropriate circ umstance s that uh, informal
    di scussions, or so forth, can be conducted to
    obt ain informat ion and so forth and so on--
    a ppropriate, I want , I tell you what you're,
    what we're up against, ri ght uh,
    Kleindienst, Kleindienst has indicated to me ,
    I don't know whether he did to you , that uh ,
    he felt that the back-up position here should be
    an executive session of the And I
    said, 1I ;:iell, that's a hell of a difficult thing
    the, for the men," , I said , tTl think that the
    position should be one of a, that our position
    should be one of a, a, a solution. That you
    c an' to-written (unintelligible)
    which is unlikely, of the two committee--I, uh.
    the, t he and the
    c ounsel , questioning any member of the \vhi'ce
    House staff, you knOi'l, under proper, you knm'l,
    restrictions ...
    Urn hurn.
    .. . an d so forth and so. on. I put that to. Baker
    as well and, uh, (unintelligible) said, Baker,
    Baker probably, uh, probably wants to get, for
    the reason that Ervin does, because of the
    publicity and so forth , to haul down the
    White House staff and ...
    Urn .
    . .. put in the glare of those lights.
    True .
    FEBRUARY 27, 1973, FROM 3 :55 TO 4 : 20 P.M. 5
    PJ_!:SID:=:nT :
    DEAN:
    PRESl:D:::!!T:

    PPE3ID::::-rT:
    PR2SID2NT:
    PRESIDSNT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    Uh , cannot have . we cannot have.
    On the other hand, we cannet have a 3 tonewall,
    uh, so that it appears that we're not let ting
    And so I think we've got to be in a
    position to, did ya discuss this with Kleindienst,
    as to what the position would be on that pOint?
    That , I thi nk, John , is the important thing that
    Kleindienst has gotta stand God damn fi rm on .
    I did, I talked to Dick about that. I said
    that, uh, "ene, there 's a stateIl'_ent forthcoming.
    I don't lmm'T the tining on it.1I
    Yeah.
    The Department will issue . I said that , it' s
    fortunate the c or:text it's out in, b ecause
    Clark Mollenho ff solicited the statement in a
    pres s inquiry t hat ' s comin
    b
    out in unrelated
    c ontext and not related to Watergat e per se.
    Right, right.
    And se that'll be out soon and that will de fi ne
    what the outer p e rimeters are. It also gives--
    Have Kleindienst say that nobody from the t'/hite
    House staff \'Ti ll testify before a cor:unittee .
    That's right.
    Of course, that doe sn 't help much at all.
    Well, under normal circumstances;'-lf they're--
    ... if they were normal .
    Tbat's the, there's little, uh, slide in there.
    And then what, in a pra6tical matter I tala 'em
    would probably happen, would be much like the
    Fla nigan situation where there's an exchange and
    the, the issues become very narrow as to the
    informat ion that ' s sought.
    27, 1973, 3:55 TO 4:20 6
    PRESIDSKT:
    PRESIDENT:

    :
    P?2SIDENT:
    PFESID2NT:
    :
    DEAN:
    Well, you worked uh, if you ' d talked to
    John you worked a t revising that
    last parc.graph.
    We've done that.
    Oh, you've alrea dy worked with him on that.
    Urn hum.
    And, uh, well, after I see his , uh, this
    Cardinal (phonetic) take me about,
    I think five, we ought to get rid of him in
    abou t, ah, fift een or twenty minutes. You
    mi ght br i ng i t d 0\'," ,1 and , uh, you 've g ot it
    written alrea dy?
    Yes, sir.
    Then let me take a look at it again.
    Uh. huh.
    And vie ' 11 approve the statement, I don t t
    to put it out right now becuase I, I, just
    depends (unintelligible) I decide to do on the,
    do on the, the. press thing.
    It'd probably be easier not to have those
    questions in your press conference per se.
    I, I, would prefer, that's i'That I Nant to do, is
    to have this st atement come after the press
    conference, to say, if they ask anything about
    it, that "I've covered that in a statenent that
    will be issued to!:lOrrm'T on Executive Privilege.
    It's very complicated (unintelligible) that's
    what I had in mind. rather not be questioned on
    the statement.
    Mollenhoff himself will de bate you right there
    on the subject.
    Right. So I'll say I'm covering--
    And I did talk to illollenhoff yesterday .at, uh,
    Rogers' request.
    27. 1973. 3 : 55 TO 4 : 20 P . M .
    PRESID=:,iT :
    DEAN:
    PRESIDEHT:
    DE.t.N:
    PRESIDENT:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESID2;n':

    .. . (uninte lligible) want to look in the c ase.
    Tell hi:.1 I '.-rant to look in the case ar.Q I had.
    an extended discussion with hiD on the
    Executive Of course, ne
    differs from where we're coming out,
    but he agrees that certainly the President has
    the legal authority to do that and he agrees
    also that it's, uh, it's--
    vlell, in his case, I mean >'ihat ,ras he
    about ?
    Hell, he says, he thinks that all "i'!hite House
    staff should be ready to run up to the Hill and
    testify and he asked ...
    (Unint elligible) .
    . .. as to what they ' re doing and it ' s a rare
    exception when the President invokes the
    privil ege . I s2.1d, "Cl a r k , that's got t o be
    the other way The staff c an 't operate
    if they're goi n g to b e queried on every bit
    of c or::.rr.unication had ... 11 th the President . II
    T[-lat's right .
    r ..!ansfield, himself, President , has recognized
    that cornmunications behreen you and your staff
    a re protec ted . He said this in a policy state-
    before they is sued this resolution up there
    on, uh, having confirmable individuals agree
    they'd testify before they are confirmed.
    (Pause)
    HelL ..
    1 ' D--
    ... as for individuals are
    they ' re all available for testi20ny though .
    That ' s right . It's no problen there .
    It's no problem there .
    There's not a by any means on that .
    -
    27 . 1973. 3 : 55 TO P.M. 8
    DE!-0-r:
    PRZSIDENr::':
    They. of course , uh, they, they, they , I
    guess , we, we would not claim
    Privilege for Cabinet officers would
    ,-re?
    Uh , no sir . Only) only if in, s ay the rare
    instances where we have already. where they're
    going for information which s hould be protected.
    Investigative files) uh, classified material or
    say, ai d prograns or sonething, ,-Then _'Ie did it - - -
    in the last--IRS files. Those are the instances
    in which we ' ve done it.
    Yeah .
    And they're quite, uh, traditional and, a nd
    ahould be expected by the Congre ss when they go
    after information like that .
    I think, I think wen t over to Kleindienst, I
    said just to show you how the worm turns here,
    i-That i-re Hent through in the Eiss case. There,
    we were, investi gating, not, uh, espionage by
    a political , ,-ihat one political organization
    against another, but a charge of espionage
    a gainst the Uni ted States of which was
    a hell of a lot more s erious. And in that c ase,
    the Department of Justice, the White House, the
    FBI totally stonewalled the committee. The FBI
    i-muld not furnish any information and here the
    FBI had a chance to furnish information to this
    c ommittee.
    Yes.
    That's according t o Gr ay, right?
    Right .
    All right. The Department of Jdstice refused
    to give us any information at all and of course
    the White House used Executive Privilege and
    the press was all on their side . You see that
    ...
    That ' s right.
    P?ESIDstJT :
    D::: -'-.:::
    :
    P?ESIDEHT:
    .. . that was a , that' s , i t' s whose ox is
    being you got so- cal led
    espionaGe i n vo l ving a
    a nd , uh, so now ( un i n telligi b le).
    We ll, you know I've be en ...
    (Uninte lligible) .
    .. . and in, in, uh, doing S02e checking.
    I told Dick a (unintelligibl e ). Tha t's what
    our De20cratic friends did when we were
    to get
    J ohn son, uh, the, uh,
    greates t abuser of t he FBI , I'm told by people,
    of the o l d hands over there.
    He used it for
    used it as his pe rsona:, uh--
    But didn 't he use it against the press?
    That 's ah--
    ... used it against the press, he used it
    against his own party, uh, back in '64 when the
    Walter Jenkins thi ng broke, uh, he had high
    officials of the FBI out trying to stron g-arm
    a doctor to say tha t this had a brain
    twnor, uh, Halter J e nkins, he also,
    then, turned his, the FBI loose on the Goldwater
    staff, uh, this sort of thing is startins to
    seep ..
    Uh, kno;:s ?
    ... out now.
    Is it getting out?
    Uh, I'm sorry . (Unintelli gible).
    27, 1973. FROM 3:55 TO 4 : 20 P . M.

    10
    PRESIDEnT:
    D
    >;'{.l.;
    --I . J.
    PRESIDt::NT:
    PRESID=':NT :
    :

    PP2SIDENT:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAL-I:
    aut you, of course, know the incident of his, uh,
    (unintelligible) the, the f amous incident of the
    bugging of our plane ...
    That 's right.
    which, uh, maybe--, they really knm'l is true.
    And you know the ins tances that they talk about,
    about the, uh, about our bugging, the FBI stuff,
    believe me, I knol-! exc.ctly what those were.
    (Sensitive Material Deleted)
    Urn hurn.. Now they're so--
    And then, of course, the other things
    involved leaks out of the NSC, where we ,
    bugged Hai g , Lake, or Halpe rin, I mean.
    tha t \vas all.
    That1s right.
    they
    But
    We were as limited as hell, I mean Hoover, good
    God, we could have used him forever. He's, he's--
    but Johnson had just apparently, just used them
    all the tim9 for this sort of thing.
    That's what I'm learning. There's more and more
    of this--
    \'Iho! s, vTho' s, i'lho f rom the FBI is trying to
    put out this stuff on us?
    God, I thought, I i'lish I -knei", President, uh.
    You don't believe it's a--
    I've heard there're, there're several name s
    that are bantered around. I, I tried for -example,
    to track the leak.
    You dont think it's Sullivan?
    N, no, I, I confronted Sullivan, as a matter of
    fact, right after this , I said, "Bill," I sa:l..d,
    uh, I called him into my office, I said, "I ,-lant
    to teJ 1 ynll \<ihat Time !-1e.p:azi ne said they ha:ve."
    His reaction i.;as not that of a man iiho has leaked
    something. Uh--
    27. 1973, FROM 3:55 TO 4 : 20 11
    PR"GSID2t,TT :
    PRESIDENT:
    D2.11.:T:


    PF.2SID2NT:
    D3AN":
    P?SSIDENT:
    Pr:::S
    Yeah .
    And then ne helped .
    (Unintelligible).
    He told me, he s2.id, "If this e',rer comes dONn
    to the veY'y short st!'okes," he s2.id> '!As f;:>"'"
    as I'm concerned this was Hoover and
    No one else. And I ' m ready to stand forw2.rd
    and take it a'G that." I said, "Hell, I don't
    think it's ever going to be that because, uh--
    Well, what, why would it be Hoever and Sullivan,
    did Hoover order him to do it?
    Hoover ordered him to do it.
    In order to ah--
    They did this--so he could say I could
    exanples chapter and verse of Hoover telling
    me to do things like this .
    NOi' Sullivan Immvs that their, it ''faS terribly
    lirrited--it was limited.
    'l'h2.t's right.
    (Sensitive Material Deleted)
    That's right.
    And that I must say, I think did request
    though, did we say find out the leaks, and
    so Hoover goes and, uh, bugs people.
    Well, I, I think ...
    That's the way to do it.
    ... the way it ' s postured now, uh, we can stonewall
    it, ah, Gray can go up there in his confirnation
    hearings and he's not gonna have to bother . with
    it, because they'd accused him in the article
    of being, sitting on top of the bugs .
    Yeah.
    27. 197 3. FROM 3: 55 TO 4:20 P . M .
    PRSSID:SNT:
    PRESIDENT:
    PP3SIDENT;
    PEGS IDEi,!T:
    DS.A2.-J :
    P?:::SIDENT:

    . .. it there once he cape in, which is not
    f'actual.
    Well, there weren't any.
    The re ,'!ere none there Hhen he came in .
    Well, three years ago that this happened ...
    That's right .
    . , .and there hasn't been a God thing
    since.
    That's correct.
    Right.
    That 's correct.
    An other thing you can say, John, is
    the fact that al l this had to do ldth the 1-Jar ..
    .. . and now the war is over.
    No\o.[ --
    Now Johnson , on the other hand, I'Tent bugging
    his political opponents , and every son-of-a,
    everything you can inagine. been, that's
    the problem, we're getting a ' real bum rap, aren' t
    He cert--, \'Ie are getting a terrible ah--
    You stop to think of, we got rid, we got rid
    of' the Army bugs, we got, you know that Army ah,
    espionage business, intelligence business,
    we got , you remember that?
    That's ri ght.
    Uh, we ' ve limi ted the FBI things to national
    sec uri ty bugs, to very, v e ry certain fet"r,
    probably too f ew.
    We're, we ' re now (unintelligible ) .
    27, '973, 3: 55 TO U: 20 P.M. 13

    V!:J.:: :
    ??sS ID2lT'1' :

    PIESID2NT:
    D::::'::.'T :
    But somebody ' s gonna get a shock one day,
    they ' ll wonder why we didn't bug huh?
    That's right . We are getting a bad rap .
    Well , for exampl e ...
    The fact is--
    ... as you know, as you know, Hoover did
    Martin, Martin Lut her King.
    That 's right, I was awar e of that also .
    Well , Christ yes, Hoover used to tell u s
    what his , what a, a morally depraved son-of-a-
    bitch he was--And Johnson probably ordered hi2
    to do it, now let's face it .
    Urn hC:7i1 .
    So, ah, I don ' t , well you can 't blace Hoover. Itm
    sure he didn 't do it unless , ah , Johnson asked him
    to , but Johnson was that kind of a nan , he used
    the FDT as his mom private patrol, but God, "', e' ve
    b een as careful , I ' ve , I' ve talked to Hoover any
    nusb e:,:, of times, but we've never ordered 2..."1:y::hing-
    like that . But he'll come in with his little
    things.
    ( Sensitive Material Deleted)
    Joh.l1son, ah ...
    Huh?
    ... Johnson, used the FBI to cover the, ah,
    New Jersey convention be fore he dropped out,
    offiCially, he had all the delegates--
    He did?
    That ' s right , which is kind of fant astic.
    Sullivan knows this?
    :
    :

    7" . '7" ,
    ...
    F?.ESIDElrT:

    D::::A1.J :
    :
    14
    hum, Sullivan is a
    the 20re I, you o f
    with him about these problems, the it
    cones out he ' s the man that can also
    did Hoover have a with him? It's a
    hell of a mistake for Boaver to do that .
    Sullivan knows too much.
    That's right, ah.
    Why didn't Sullivan squawk?
    I think Sullivan probably is loyal to the .. .
    ... institution--
    .. . the institution a n d doesn't want--
    over there is not , can he help you
    find out who the hell is not? Isn't it a
    possibility ...
    ::e 2.dvised--
    . .. the guy that-- Tine IvIagazine' s l at,'lyer , you
    don ' t think it's him?
    He speculates, and, the speculation is generally,
    is e it her Sullivan hinself , Felt, who
    is--
    I know, the lawyer says that.
    That 's right. Ah, and the other one i s a fellow
    Bishop who is now departed, who was in
    charge of their public information and where--
    Does he know about things, Eoover didn't
    tell people like that, about these things ...
    . . . did he?
    For eX2.!r.ple , the ' 68 thi ng, I try-, was trying
    to determine who know about that.
    Yeah , ah ...
    FFSPUARV 27, 1973 , 3: 55 TO 4:20 P. N.

    15
    PP::::SIDENT:
    DEAN :
    PL'{ESIDENT:
    DEA,J :
    P?23ID2NT:
    PR'::::SIDEN'l' :

    D::::r:; :
    Hoover, apparently ...
    .A.h, I guess .
    ... Hoover apparently told Pat Coyne, Patrick
    Coyne, who used to be on the NSC staff .
    I know, I know, I believe, is he still living?
    I don ' t, I don 't know the man.
    He told Pat Coyne?
    He told Pat Coyne; Coyne told Rockefeller;
    Rockefell er relayed this to Kissinger, this was
    one channel that might have it in a public
    The other is when Sullivan took the
    or all the documents in conne ction
    with this , ah , out of his office , and out of
    the he also instructed the Washington
    Field Office to destroy all
    they did . Ah, Hoover, incensed at this,
    tnat he couldn 't reconstruct , that he didn't
    have the records and couldn't get then from
    Sullivan, tried to have the Washington Field
    Office reconstruct them, which they couldn ' t .
    As a result of movement and flailing
    around by Hoover, a lot of people in the agency
    were aware of what had happened and it was on
    the grapevine .
    Oh, that's when it happened then, the night
    Sullivan l eft , he took the records vlith hin--
    He took the records with him ...
    And the only records there were?
    ... and that's the only records there are .
    Ee did it out of , uh, I mean, pissed off at
    Hoover .
    No , ah , he was doing it to ...
    Protect ...
    .. . protect, ah--
    . . 1973, 3 : 55 TO b :20 .
    DSP.?r :

    DEAN:
    :
    DEfl.;r:
    P?':::S==:::::=' :
    PP..ESIDSNT:
    DE.'".:T:
    PHESIDE?JT:
    .. . Bureau.
    No , he was do!ng it to protect the White
    House and the people over here .
    Oh, OD, but for Christ sake s, Hoover, I nean,
    (unintelligible).
    Ho over never got his hands on the records is
    what h appened. Sullivan has them, Sullivan had
    his. ah, his pissing Datch with Hoover and then
    took them with him at that time.
    I see .
    And then he turned them over to Mardian
    ul tinately.
    I set=-
    And--
    That's how we go t the= .
    Ar.e. then--
    U:''1e:::'e I s Sullivan n m-r?
    Sullivan is back a t Justice in the Drug
    Intell igence (unintelligible ).
    We owe him something .
    We do. He wants to go back to the Bureau and
    work on, ah, dome stic, ah--
    \'Ihy is it that Gray "?"ant him?
    I think Mark Felt has poisoned Gray on
    this issue and I think once Gray--
    Well, who in the hell. 1s doing
    Felt in . You know what , do you, do you believe
    the TiDe Magazine lawyer? Is Felt (unintel-
    ligible), is he of this sort of thing?




    Well , let tell I. else I
    heard that from, ah , was Sandy ah, I had
    told, not, no t the lawyer somebody else
    told ?el t was his source ...
    Yeah .
    . . . and this came to Petersen, ah, Henry
    Petersen's an old hand over there , as you kno:'J,
    and , ah , bless his s oul, he's a valuabl.e man
    to u s . Ah--
    Yeah. What did he say?
    Ah, h e said t hat he woul dn 't put it past Felt
    but , ah , the other thing I WQS talking to
    Klei ndi enst about this whe n I was over there, he
    said if Fel t i s the source ...
    Yeah .
    . .. and if we gets Felt way out of j oint we
    are in serious trouble.
    'Cause he knows so much?
    He kno;'ls so much.
    \'ih.a t t s he know?
    I don't kno,,, ,
    ah, he said,
    I didn't ask for specifics
    one thing , he said he coiild l<nock.
    Does he know about Sullivan stuff?
    Yes, he knows about that. I called asked
    him what he knew about it and he was, for
    exa..'!lple, very cool \vhen I, I said, "There 's a
    Time !;:agazine story running, Nark, ah, thC!:t
    in '68 ...
    Yeah .
    or, or in ' 69 and '70 ...
    Yes.
    '.
    27 . '973 . FROM 3:55 4: 20 P.M. 18
    PRSSIDET:;:' :
    so on so forth . He said, uh, I
    or he said.) It I S2..:!..C ,
    "110\'1 do you kno\'; th.:=.t? 1f 2nci I s2..id, trr'Ve r..ever
    h9 2.r d of that before. " He said, IIHell, ir you
    talk to Bill SUllivan , he'll tell you all about
    it . " he did he , sort of a general , he
    painted a general picture about it. Ah, but
    just cool as a cucuober about it. Ah--
    And what does he say about Time , again, how
    does he , is he gonna stand up for the
    He says , "John , " h e said, ah , I said " First
    of all, I don't, I don 't believe this COULQ
    happen," I was pro tect ing as f ar as ..
    Ye2.h .
    .. . doubting i'That he had sid. He said, "\{ell ,
    John, as far as I'm concerned , our , our phone
    is totally off the record, 'de never h ad it, II so
    that's a good to watCh , just right there .
    In other words , you can't blow the whistle on
    Felt, just l ike you can 't blow the whistle on
    the son- of- a - bitch out there , the yeoman, in
    the Jack Anderson c as e , right?
    That 's right, but there will b ecome , ah, there
    i'rill come a day when Gray ' s comfortably in
    there, ''1hen other things come past, tilat ah--
    Like what?
    I think that Gray c an , at some point when,
    this sort of thing continues, once he gets
    th:=>ough his confirmati on, I don't knmr he
    co uldn ' t. himself say "I.'m gonna take a lie
    detector test and I'm gonna ask everybody in ny
    iro'nediate shop to take one and then ,',e f re gOClna
    go out and as k some of the o ther agents to take
    t hem ...
    Just for l eakage .
    '! . as for leakage, be c ause this , this only
    llUrts, ah, this ,'Ihole institution. II
    ( Pause )
    27, 1973, 3: 55 to 4: 20 P.K. 19
    P1ESIDS!!T :

    PFESIDSHT :

    PIESIDt:NT:
    FP2SIDENT:
    DSf']!:
    :

    co yot.: j ah> '::here de /ou s ta!:.d on the,
    hOl,,; ',',-i l eave it on Kl elndler!s t bears ,
    with regard to the, that's let
    De it this You take the responsi -
    bility for I'm gonna keep
    Ehrlich:-:lan and Halder.lan of it--out of their--
    any rel at ionship with Kleindienst . You should
    have i t only , but you've got to watch h im ani
    brace on the Executive Privilege thing,
    that you , that you tell him what the line is ...
    I have , I have ...
    ... and where he's to stand .
    I have told hil'"! and I 've S -, I said lilt's
    gonna be important ."
    Didn't he raise the idea of their hurryi ng the
    Executive Session refusal?
    No) he di d. not.
    All r ight. Be sur e he knows \; hat the back up
    position is, which ( unintelligible), as I
    understand it, if we went in there under proper
    ah, ah, restrictions , allO\\' , uh, t ivO committee
    members to come down. Is that what you woul d. do?
    I think we wo- , ought, if I t hink we ought to
    draw the l ine at written interrogatorie s. I think
    the position should be that you were holding
    not hing back, information wise.
    That would be sworn.
    That 's right , that would be sworn, uh, you
    can't be in a position of protecting any, ' anybody
    around here.
    Tl':at ' s right.
    The informat ion has to be available . But to
    go up there and make a circus out of the
    appearance of , of people--
    Right.
    ",
    27, 1973 . FROM 3 : 55 TO 4 : 20 P . M.
    DE.\N :
    PRESID:'::l'iT :
    Jlh- -
    Good, irell lc:t ",e say abou':; ah, aOoL!.t Felt,
    it sounds as if he knows, it sounds as if
    maybe he's--
    20
    DEAT'J : Kind of watch it like a Mr . President ...
    PRESIDBliT: Yeah.
    ... and I just got to watch him, ah, he ' s too
    close to Pat Gray right now ...
    DEAll:
    Yeah .
    . .. for our interc:st s.
    Pat Gray is a little naive .
    Material Deleted)
    Yeah. Well I think it 's--
    ( Sensitive
    ??33Ir:;:':::a : /;rld he never ever has anything l':rong, find out
    interesting facts , but , ah , nothing we
    eve:::- used . I m.ean Ke just \',ere aVlful c areful .
    Joe Kraft , of course, should have been bugged.
    I wou ld think the son-of - a - bitch i s , ah,
    practi call;)T an agent to the communists.
    DSAN: Well, wha t you said about Bob and J ohn, too, I
    think, as before the election, I tried to only
    bother them or consume any of t heir time ,,,hen
    it was just absolutely e s sential .
    P!ESIDEie: Right.
    DEAN: And I think that's the way it's been .
    PP3SIDENT: That's right, that's right.
    D:'::.::":; : He" ah . ..
    Un:.c.entified : (Unintelli gible) is here.
    PRESID:'::NT : Fine , fine.
    HALDEMAN : Did he b uzz?
    .-

    21
    I buzzed twic e , that for l ern to
    corne in . buzz (unintelligi ble )
    that r:: eans .
    Apparently the phones wo rking pro;er1y.
    Oh fine, sure , sure, sure, have l em corne
    right in . Right there
    ( Unintelligible with noise)
    Well. sir, 1 111 get that on
    e xecut i ve privilege.
    If you could, uh, ir you uh , do your
    best to, uh, if you keep posted on
    that way you nee d
    to but nar ticularly with relation to Kleindienst.
    Ok?::?
    I-'
    IV
    I
    I-'
    o
    IV
    W
    FEBRUARY 28, 1973 FROM 9:12 TO 10:23 A.M.

    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:-
    PRESIDENT:
    DSAN:
    PPESIDENT :
    Well, let's just let Timmons tell Baker that
    ir he to talk to, if he wants to
    get anybody at the White House, that I don't
    . ;.;ant him to talk to Timmons. Of course
    is a party in interest here, too. I
    don't want him to .
    That's right.
    . talk to Haldeman; I. don't want him to
    talk to that you're the man--and
    that you're available. But leave it that __ " .;.
    way: that you're available to talk to him
    but not for everything. But, nobody else.
    How does that sound to you?
    I think that sounds good.
    You tell
    and says
    We don't
    (sighs)
    that he sees him privately
    that's it. 1-Te are not pressing him.
    care, we're not--because Baker--
    The \'loods are full of weak men.
    I would suspect if we're going to get any
    insight into i'That that --that Special COl!!mittee
    is going to do, it's going to be through the
    Gurneys--I don't know about Weicker, uh, where.
    he's
    Weicker's a
    going to raIl out on this thing.
    PP2SIDENT: well, he'll, he'll he'll be--
    DEAN: . 'Hhatever's up--
    PRESIDENT: I think Heicker, the line to Welcker is Gray.
    Now, Gray has got to shape up here and,
    and, uh, handle himself well, Do you
    think he will?
    DEAN: I do. I think Pat is, uh, think Pat is tough.
    He goes up this morning, as you know. Uh,
    he is, uh, he's ready_ He's very comfortable
    in all of the decisions he has made, and, uh,
    I think he'll be good.
    FEBRUARY 28, 1973 FROM 9:12 TO 10:23 A.M.
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAJ,z :
    PP-ESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    P?.ESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    P?.ESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    But he's close to Weicke r--that's what
    I meant.
    Yeah, he is.
    And, uh, so, uh, Gray, Gray--
    As a vehicle--yes.
    One rather amusing thing about the Gray
    thing is that I, I, I, and I knew this
    would come--they constantly say that Gray
    is a political crony of', and a personal
    crony of the President's. Did you know that
    I have never seen him socially?
    Is that correct? No,- r didn't.
    He's--I think he 's been to a of" vlhite
    House--but I have never seen Pat Gray
    separately.
    Oh, the press has got him meeting you at a
    social function. And, and, uh, going on
    there.
    \Olhen?
    Back in (sighs) '47, I think, is something
    I have read.
    Naybe Radf'ord had a party or something.
    Something like that.
    Something like that. But . that's a11. Uh>
    well that's--I don't know. Gray iS
    7
    uh>
    is somebody that I, that I know only as a--
    He was a, he was Radford's ASSistant> used .
    to attend NSC meetings.
    Uh huh.
    So I've met him. never been socia1.
    Edgar Hoover, on the other hand, I have seen
    socially at least a hundred times. He and I
    were very close friends.
    ;
    r-
    FEBRUARY 28, 1973 FROM 9:12 TO 10:23 A.M.
    17
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEMf:
    PRESIDENT:
    PHESIDENT;
    DElu'I:
    PRESIDENT: .
    D E ~ l :
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    That's curious, the way the press just-_
    But John--and that's the point: Hoover
    was my crony and friend. He was as close
    or closer to me t han Johnson, actually,
    although Johnson used him more. But as for
    Pat Gray, Christ, I never saw him.
    While it might have been, uh, a lot of blue
    chips to the late Director, I think we ,,",ould.
    have been a lot better off during this
    whole Watergate thing if he'd been alive, :
    'cause he knew how to handle that Bureau
    Oh.
    knew how to keep them in bounds-; Uh--
    was a tough cooki e .
    . : "
    Well, if, if Hoover ever fought--He would
    have fought, that's the point. He'd have
    fired a few people, or he'd have scared them
    to death. He's got files on everybody,
    God damn it.
    (Laughs) That's right.
    But now, at the present time, the Bureau
    is leaking like a sieve, and, u h ~ Baker, and,
    and--Gray denies it. Just says it's not
    coming from the Bureau. Just who in the bell
    is it coming from? How in t he hell could
    it be coming from anybody else? It isn't
    coming from Henry Petersen, is it?
    No. I just would not--
    It isn't coming from the depositions ~ is it?
    No. It's that, well, they' r e getting, they're
    getting raw data. They're getting the raw,
    what they call, 302 forms.
    Yeah.
    Those are the summaries of the interviews.
    FEBRUARY 28, 1973 FROM 9:12 TO 10:23 A.M.

    DEAn:
    PRESID:Z::N'I':
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    P?SSIDENT:

    . La=-:
    That wouldn't surprise me, uh--
    Bobby was a ruthless little bastard. But
    the FBI does--they, they tell you that, uh,
    Sullivan told you that, the New Jersey
    thing? We did use a bug up there--just
    for intelligence work .
    Intelligence work--just had agents allover
    ( unintelligible)
    Frankly, the doctors say that the poor old
    gent had a tumor.
    That's right.
    The FBI (unintelligible)
    Well, uh, he used Abe Fortas and Deke
    DeLoach backed up by, uh, some other people
    iJ1 the Bureau that Nere standing ready to
    go out and try to talk this doctor into
    examining Walter Jenkins to say the nan had
    a brain tUmor. He was very ill, that's why
    the erratic behavior. And this doctor, uh,
    wouldn I t buy it.
    The doctor had never examined him before or
    anything.
    }Io.
    were trying to set that up though, huh.
    Oh, yeah, that would've--
    What other kind of activities?
    Well, I, you know, as I say, I haven't
    probed uh, uh .
    Sullivan.
    . Sullivan to the depths on this because I--
    he's, he's one I want to treat at arm's
    length, till we make sure
    1====-=---
    FEBRUARY 28, 1973 9:12 TO 10:23 A.M.
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEA}i:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    Right .
    he is safe.
    That's right.
    But he has a world of informat ion
    may be available.
    But he says that \'That happened on on
    the, uh, bugging thing is--who told what to
    whom again? The bugging thing?
    Oh. On the '68 thing--I was trying to track
    down the, the leaks.
    Yeah.
    He said that the only place he could figure
    it coming from would be one of a couple of
    sources he \>las a\"are of, uh> that had been
    some\"hat discussed publicly. He said that
    Hoover had told Patrick Coyne about the fact
    that this was being done. Coyne had tol d
    Rockefeller.
    Yeah (unintelligible)
    Now Rockefeller had told Kis singer. I
    have never run it any step beyond what
    l1r Sullivan said there. Nm .. the other thing
    is that when the records were unavailable
    for Hoover--all this and the logs
    Yeah. (Clears throat)
    Hoover tried to re--, reconstruct them by
    going to the Washington Field Office and he
    made a pretty good stir about what he "laS
    doing vThen he ".Tas trying to get the record and
    reconstruct it. And, he said that at that time
    we probably hit the grapevine in the Bureau
    that this had occurred. But there is no
    evidence of it. Uh, the records show at the
    Department of Justice and, and the FBI that
    there's no such> uh, surveillance was ever
    conducted. Uh--
    FEBRUARY 28, 1973 FROM 9:12 TO 10:23 A. M.
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:.
    PR2SIDENT:

    PRESIDENT:
    Shocking (unintelligible)
    Now, about White House staff and reporters
    and the like, and, nO\'1, the only, the other
    person that knows--i s aware of it--is
    Mark Felt, and we've talked about Mark
    Felt, and, uh--I guess, uh--
    What does it do to him, though? Let's
    face it. You k now, suppose that Felt come
    out and unwraps the whole thing. What
    does it do to him?
    He can't do it. It just--
    But my point is: Who's going to hire him?
    That's right.
    Let's face it.-
    He can't . He's--
    Ii' he--the guy tha-t does that can go out
    and, uh, you mean he's a--of course, he
    couldn't do it unless he had a guarantee
    somebody like Time ma8azine
    saying "Look He'll give you a job for life. ,.
    Then "rhat do they do? They put him in a ,j ob
    for life, and everybody "'!Quld treat him like
    a pariah. He's in a very dangerous situation.
    These guys you know--the informers, look
    what it did to Chambers. Chambers informed
    because he didn't give a God damn.
    Right.
    But then, one of the most brilliant writers
    according to Jim (unintelligible) wetve
    ever seen in this country--and I am not
    referrine to the Communist
    this greatest Single guy in the time of
    twenty-five or, thirty years probably,
    probably the best writer in, in
    this century. They finished him.
    FEBRUARY 28, 1973 FROM 9:12 TO 10:23 A.M.
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEA.."i:
    PRESIDENT:
    DeAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PHESIDENT:
    DeAN:
    :
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    Uh huh. Well, I think, I, there's no--
    Either way, either way, the, the, the
    informer is not wanted in our society. Either
    way, that's the one thing people do sort of
    line up against. They ..
    That's right.
    . they say, well that. son-of-a-bitch
    informed. I don't want him around. He
    wouldn't want him around, would we?
    I don't, uh--
    Hoover to Coyne to N.R. to K. Right?
    Right.
    Good God. Hhy would Coyne tell Nelson
    Rockefeller? He was--I1ve known Coyne for
    years. I've--not well, but I--he was a
    great friend of, oh, uh, one of my
    Administrative--Bob, uh, King, who was a
    Bureau man.
    Now this is Sullivan's story. I have-no--
    Fine. That's all right.
    I don't know if it's true, but I don't have
    any reason to doubt that--
    Most of this is Gospel. Hoover told me, so,
    uh--and he also told Mitchell, personally,
    that this had happened. - (Unintelligible)
    Are you talking--I was talking about the '68
    uh, incident that Just occurred. Not
    I'm talking about the '68 bugging of the
    plane.
    Yeah. Oh, I wasn't referring to that now.
    When this, when this Coyne, uh--
    Oh, oh, that's--
    ---------..,..
    FEBRUARY 28, 1973 FROM 9:12 TO 10:23 A. M. 3D
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT :
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:


    DEAN:
    PHESIDENT:
    D3AN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEft ... "l:
    PRESIDE-iT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDE:NT:
    DE:AN:
    PRESIDENT:
    This, this was the , this was the f act that
    newsmen had been, uh, I, I--exc use me , I
    thought he meant the reference to the fact
    that, uh .
    Oh.
    . three years ago the I-lhite House had
    allegedly--the Time story.
    Oh, this is a--Tha t's, that's not the, uh--
    No, on the, on the '68 incident, uh, all
    I've been able to find out is what you told
    me that Hoover had told you, what he'd
    Yeah.
    told Mitchell.
    Yeah.
    He, uh--
    Mitchell corroborates that, doesn't he?
    That's right. Uh, then--
    Sullivan doesn't remember that?
    Kevin Phillips called Pat Buchanan the other
    day with, with a, with a tidbit that, uh,
    Dick Whelan on .
    Yeah.
    the NSC staff had seen memorandum between
    the NSC and the FBI that the FBI had been
    instructed to put surveillance on Anna
    Chennault, the South Vietnamese Embassy and
    That is a--
    . the Agnew plane.
    Agnew?
    FEBRUARY 28, 1973 FROM 9:12 TO 10:23 A.N.
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    P?2SIDEHT:

    PF..ESIDENT :
    D=:A.:.'l:
    PP.zsrDENT :
    PEl::SIDENT:
    DSAN:
    Agnew plane.
    They put it on our--well, this isn't mine--
    maybe I'm wrong.
    Now, and it said al--, and this note also
    said that, uh, Deke DeLoach was the
    FBI officer on this.
    I think DeLoach's memory nm., is very, very
    hazy in that connection. He doesn't
    remember anything.
    Well, I talked to' Mitchell about this and
    Mitchell says that he's talked to DeLoach.
    DeLoach has in his possession, and he has
    let Hitchell review them, some of the files on
    this. Uh--
    But not, but not--
    But they don't go very far; they don't go
    very far--This, this 1s DeLoach, uh,
    protecting his own hide. The, uh--
    They are never going to--It's just as well,
    to be candid with you. Just as well.- But, uh--
    so Hoover told Coyne, and , uh, and--who
    told Rockefeller .
    --that this--
    who told Kissinger that newsmen were
    being bugged
    Yeah.
    by us.
    That's right.
    Now why would Hoover do that?
    I don't have the foggiest. This was Sullivan's
    story as to where, uh, the leak might have
    come from about this Time
    story, which we are stone-walling totally, uh--
    FEBRUARY 28, 1973 FROM 9:12 TO 10:23 A.M.
    ~ ..
    PRESIDENT;
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    P?3SIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    D E J ! - , ~ !
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    Oh, absolutely.
    (Note: At this point, a discussion
    of one minute and twelve seconds
    "'hich is not pertinent is not transcribed)
    Sure. And the, and the, and the, and
    Henry's staff--He insisted on La%e, you see
    after ",orking with HcGov--, uh, uh, for
    Muskie.
    Um huh.
    Incidentally, didn't Huskie do anything bad
    on there? (Unint el l igible) Henry
    (unintelligible). At least I know not
    because I know that, I know that he asked
    that it be done, and I assumed that it ,'ras.
    Lake and Halperin. They're both bad. But
    the taps 'I'lere, too. (Unintelligible) They never
    caught us. Just gobs and gobs of material:
    gossip and bull-shitting (unintelligible).
    Urn uh.
    The tapping was a very, very unproductive
    thing. I've always known that. At least,
    I've never, it's never been useful in any
    operation live ever conducted. (Pause) Well, it is
    your view that we should try to get out that
    '68 story then?
    Well, I think the threat
    (Unintelligible)
    .. the threat of the '68 story when, when
    Scott and the others were arguing that the
    Committee up on the Hill broadened its
    mandate ..
    Yeah.
    ... to include other elections
    Yeah.
    -- - - - - - - - - ~
    ~ . .
    FEBRUARY 28, 1973 FROM 9:12 TO 10:23 A. M .
    33 -
    DEAN :
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    .. they were hinting around t hat something
    occurred in '6 8 and '64 that should be looked
    at.
    Right. Goldwater claims he was bugged.
    That's right. Now I think that, I think
    that, that threats--
    Did you think Gold--Oh, you, didn't you say
    that Johnson did bug Goldwater's--?
    He, he didn't--wel l, I, we don't know, I
    don't know if he bugged him, but
    He did intelligence work?
    he did intelligence work up one side and
    down the other ..
    From the FBI?
    DEAN: . from the FBI. Uh, just up one side and
    down the other on Goldwater.
    PrGSIDENT: urn hm.
    DEAN: Now I have not had a chance to talk to the
    Senator, and I've kno\'tn the Senator for
    twenty years. Uh , he is the first man in
    public life I ever met. Uh, Barry Jr. and
    I were roommates in school together, so I,
    and I can talk to t he man.
    P?2SIDENT: Sure.
    DEAN: I am really going-t o s it down with him one
    day and say ...
    PRESIDENT: I think you should.
    DEAN: . say, "what .. "
    PRESIDENT: Say, "What the hell do y o ~ . "
    DEAN: " . what, what do you ... "
    FEBRUARY 28, 1973 FROM 9:12 TO 10:23 A. M . 34 '
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN :
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    P?3SIDENT:
    DSAN:
    PRESIDENT :
    DEAN:
    PRESIDfu'lT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    ... Do you have any hard
    That's right. Then we c an go from there
    and
    Right.
    . possibly reconstruct some things.
    Get some stuff '11ritten., and so fort h. I
    do think ;you've got to remember that, as you
    sure do, this is mainly a public
    thing, anyway. What is the
    incidentally, with regard to the, the
    sent enci ng of our, of the people, the seven?
    When the hell is that going to occur? .
    That's likely to occur, I would say, ' ( sighs )
    could occur as early as late this vreek,
    more likely some time next week.
    has it been delayed so l ong?
    Well, they, they've been in, in process of .
    preparing the pre-sentence report. The
    J u dge sends out probation officers to find out
    everybody who knew ..
    Yeah.
    these people, and then he' 11-.
    He 's trying to work on them to break them 1s
    ho? (Unintelligible)
    Well, there' 5 some of that.. They are using
    the probation officer for more than a normal
    probation report. They are trying to, uh .
    Yeah .
    do a mini-investi gation by the Judge
    himself, i-Thich is his only investigative tool
    here, so they, that, they are Virtually
    completed now. They--the U.S. Attorney
    who handles, the, the Assistant U.S. Attorney.
    FEBRUARY 28, 1973 FROM 9 :12 TO 10:23 A.M.
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    :
    DEAN;
    PF2SIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    You knml' when they talk, though, about a
    thirty-five year sentence, now here's, here's
    something that does not involve--There were no
    weapons, right? There were no injuries,
    right? There was no succe--well, success
    maybe--I don't knO'.'I'. The point is--the) uh--
    that, that sort of thing is just ridiculous.
    One of these, one of these you know,
    goes in here and "holds up a, a store with
    a God damned gun, and, uh, they give him
    two years and then probation after .
    And they ...
    six months.
    and they let him out on, on bond during
    the time that he is considering his case.
    These fellows cannot get out--
    Are they out? Have they been in jail?
    They're in--well, all but one. Hunt made the,
    the bond. Everybody else is in jail. The've
    got a hundred thousand dollar surety bond
    which means they have tq put up actual
    collateral, but uh, and none of these people
    have a hundred thousand dollars. The Court
    of Appeals has been sitting for two weeks or
    better now on a revie\'1 of the bond issue.
    They're not even letting these neonle out
    to prepare their case for appeai. -
    (Note: At this point, a discussion
    of about fifteen minutes '''hich is
    not pertinent is not transcribed)
    (Reel One Ends)
    (Reel Two Begins)
    You still think Sullivan is basically
    reliable?
    I, I have nothing to judge .
    No.
    that on other--I watched him for a number
    of years. I watched him when he was working
    FEBRUARY 28, 1973 FROM 9:12 TO 10:23 A.M.
    DEAN: .
    (CONTI NUED )
    PRESIDENT:

    PRESIDENT:
    DEAN:
    :
    DEAN:
    with Tom Huston on domestic intelligence,
    and his, in his desire to do the right
    thing. Uh, I tried to, you know, stay in
    touch with Bill, and find out what his moods
    are. Bill was forced on the outside for a
    long time. He didn't become, he didn't
    become bitter. He sat back and waited
    until he could come back in. Uh; he
    didn't try to f orce or blackmail his way
    around, uh, "lith .knoNledge he had. So, I,
    I have no, I have no signs of anything but
    a reliable man who thinks a great deal of
    this Admi nistration and of, and of you.
    You understand the problem we have here is
    that Gray is going to insist, I am sure,
    come down hard for Pelt as the second man.
    And that would worry the hell out of me if
    Felt--I think at the present time it
    doesn't.
    It, it worries me, frankly.
    But for the future. isn't it a problem?
    I think it is for the future, 'cause onl--
    things can only get more complex over there
    as we move along. There is no (laughs)
    doubt about it.
    vlell, as he gets closer to the next
    election--Oh, uh, (unintelligible). I
    don't kno\'l Felt, never met him. What's
    he look like?
    (Note: At this point, there was a discussion
    of one minute and sixteen seconds deleted
    which is not pertinent)
    Well, I've got to say one thing. There has
    never been a leak out of my (laugtrs) office.
    There never will ..
    Yeah.
    be a leak out of my office.
    r
    f-'
    tv
    ~
    tv
    I
    tv
    o
    o
    5
    ftlARCH 13, 1973, FRQr.'l 12 :4 2 TO 2:00 P.r.1.
    DEAN: Oh, it is.
    PRESIDENT: For Christ sake.
    PEAN : It is .
    PRESIDENT: I mean, uh, .. That, \'That happened to the kid?
    Did h e just, uh, decide to be a hero?
    DEAN: That's right. He apparently chatted about
    it around school , and the \'lord got out,
    and he got confronted \vit h it and he knew'
    '.
    he'd chatted about it, and so there he was. It's,
    uh, absurd; it r eally is. He didn't do any-
    thing illegal. Uh.
    PRESIDENT: {veIl, of course not. Apparently you haven 't
    been able to do anything on my
    DEAN: But I have, sir' ...
    PRESIDENT : project of take the offensive
    DEAN : No, to the contrary.
    . based on Sull ivan.
    DEAN: No" uh
    PRESIDENT: Have you kicked a few butts around?
    DEAN: Db" I have all of the information that "I.,e
    have finished -- that we' va collected.
    Tnere is some there, and, uh, I've turned
    it over to Baroody. Baroqdy is having a
    speech drafted for Barry Goldwater. And
    there's enough material there to make a
    rather sensational speech just by: "'\'lhy
    in the hell isn' t somebody looking into
    what happened to President Nixon when, dur-
    ing his campaign - look at these even'ts.
    How do you expl ain these? \'lhere are the
    answers to these questions?" Uh" there's
    enough of a thread, I've ..
    PRESIDENT: Double standard.
    Mb nm ..... !!! 1M. ." 1M
    T
    6
    13, 1973. FROM 12:42 TO 2:00 P .M .
    DEAN : . . . Yeah, and I've, I've pulled all the infor-
    mation ...
    PRESIDENT: Als0
    3
    the Senator then should also present
    it to the, uh, to the Ervin Commit tee and
    demand that that be
    DEAN: A letter .
    PRESIDENT: He is a Senator,
    DEAN: What I'm I'wrking on nmv
    PRESIDENT : . a Senator -
    DEAN: is a letter to Senator Ervin saying, "This
    has come 1;0 my attention, and why should-n' t,
    - why shouldn't this be a part of the
    inquiry?" And he can spring out of '64 and
    then quickly to - '72. And , and we've got
    a pretty good speech, uh, Baroody tells me,
    if we can get out our material.
    PrtESIDENT : Good.
    DEAN: So it's in the mill.
    HALDEi
    v
    lAN : Good. (Unintelligible) friends have you
    got (unintelligible)
    DEAN: That's right.
    PRESIDE}i""T: T"nank God.
    HALDEJ:1AN: l-lhy has there never been (unintelligible)
    come up and did it before?
    PRESIDElIT: Just wasn't enough stuff. They couldn't
    get anybody to pay attention. For example,-
    the investigations were supposed to have
    been taken for the thirty-four million-odd
    contributed to rkGovern in small-- Oh Christ,
    there's a lot of hanky-panky in there, and
    the records used on it are just too bad to
    find out anything.
    .-,- - .. -.. - ..,. -.. -
    - #.- ---- -- ----- _._ ... -

    7
    MARCH 13, 1973 , FRO!"! 12:42 TO 2:00 P.M.
    That's one of the problems that he has
    PRESIDENT: That's the problem, andean t hat be an issue?
    DEA.l'I1: That ,,,i ll be an i ssue . Th2.t ,,,e have -- there
    is a crew working that, also.
    PRESIDENT: Do you need any IRS (unintelligible) stuff?
    DEAN: Uh, not at this
    WAITER: Would you care for some coffee?
    DEAN: No, thank you, I'm fine.
    \'iAITER: Okay.
    Uh, there is no need at this hour for anything
    from IRS, and we have a couple of sources over
    there that I can go to. I don't have to fool
    around with Johnnie Walters or anybody, we
    c an ge t right in and get Hhat \ve need.
    PRESIDENT: Talk to Elliot Gompers.
    I've, I've been preparing the, uh, the
    answers for the briefing . book and I just
    raised this with Ron, uh. It's my esti-
    mation, for what it's worth, that probably
    this week will draw more \'latergate ques-
    tions than any other week you're likely to
    see, uh, given the Gray hearings, the new
    revelations about -- they!re not new, but.
    they're now substantiated about Kalmbach
    and Chapin that have been in the press.
    To the effect of what? They
    DEAN: That Chapin directed Kalmbach to pay Segretti,
    the alleged saboteur, sorne,,,here between
    thirty-five and forty thousand dollars. Uh,
    there is 2.n 2.wful lot of that out in the
    press now.
    PRESIDENT: Yeah.
    DEAN: There is also the question of Dean appearing,
    not appearing -- Dean's role. There was more
    u
    1'lARCH 13, 1973, FRmiJ 12:4 2 TO 2;00 P.N.
    stories in the Post this morning that are
    absolutely inaccurate, uh, about my turni ng
    information to the Re -election Com-
    mi ttee for uh, uh -- some ,'lOman over there,
    Hoback, signed an affidavit, gave it
    to Birch Bayh , said that I was , uh, brought
    into Mardian ' s , Bob Mardian's office within
    forty-ei ght hours after a private interview
    I had with the jury confronted with
    it. How did they know that? ' Jell, it came
    from internal sources over there, is how they
    knew it.
    PRESIDENT: From what?
    DEAN-: Internal sources. This girl had told others
    that she was doing this, and they just told,
    uh, just quickly filled her to the top that
    she was out on her own.
    PRESIDENT: She did?
    DEAN: . She did. Then we had two or three of those.
    PRESIDfu'J'"'I' : \'lhy did she do that? vIas she mad?
    . DEAN: She's a registered Democrat.
    PREISDENT: if,.'1Y did we take her in?
    DEAN: I'll-- To this day, I do not understand "That
    she ,'las doing. And she was
    PRESIDEN""T: Hho was she working for?
    DEAN: She worked in Stans' operation.
    PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible) that was a bright move.
    DRll.N: It wasn't a good move. He had -- in fae t ,
    that was one of our problems, was the, uh,
    the little pocket of that worked for
    Haury Stans. No doubt about it, that ;.[a3 --
    things would have sailed a lot smoother with-
    out that pack. Not that they had anything
    that was devastating.
    ---- -- ---
    MARCH 13, 1973, FROM 12:42 TO 2:00 P.M.
    - PRESIDEnT: Tiley won 1t believe the they don't
    know what to believe when they convicted
    s even people .
    DEAN:
    . That's right. They will continually try
    to say that there 's something (unintelli-
    . gible)
    PRESIDENT: Tney'll say, "Haldeman did it." And then
    they'll say I did it.
    DEAN: That's right.
    PRESIDENT: I don't think they 'll get to that point.
    Tney might que stion his political savvy,
    but not mine. Not on a matter like that.
    DEAN : ( Laughs .) No. (Pa use) Hell, the thing on
    Sullivan which I have . (Noise) Sullivan, uh , who
    as I told you, and, have been prompting him and I
    said, "Bill, I "Tould like for my Ovln use,
    to have a list of some of the horribles that
    you're avTare of . " Hell, he hasn't responded
    back to me , but he sent me a note yesterday
    saying that, ItJohn, I am vTilling at any time
    to testify. to what I know if you '\'Tant me to. It
    i'mat he has, as \'le already know, has got a
    c e rtain degree of, uh-- it's a, it's a dyna-
    wi te si tua tion ,.,ha t he's got already -- the
    '68 bugging, the surveillance that
    people . .
    PRESIDENT: It's not -- \'1e (unintelligible) on the f68
    bugging, that it was but he doesn't
    know whether it was c arried out.
    DEAN: That's right. Uh.
    But at least he will say that. .
    DEfu'i: Yes.
    PRESIDENT: Tell them, for example, I mean I .
    D3AN: I would think ...
    0 , _ ______ ___ _ _ _ _ ___ , _ __ _._" _ __ . _.
    Q u p
    ..L.J
    MARCH 13, 1973, FROM 12:42 TO 2:00 P.M.
    PRESIDENT: That kind of thing. (Noise)
    DEAN: Well, I've never talked to Bill about this
    so it must be-- I've never really gone into
    ,detail, because he's always been very up
    close about it, but he is now getting to
    the point if, if we wanted him to do this,
    someone, and I don't think the White House
    should do it, should sit down with him and
    really take him over cross-examination of
    what he does knO'." and , and hOl<l strong it is,
    what he can, can substantiate.
    PRESIDENT: John, "'ho the hell could do it if you don't?
    DEAN: 'Hell, that's, that's probably-- there's no
    one. That's the, uh
    PRESIDENT: That's the problem.
    DEAN: .. That's the problen. NOW, the other thing
    is, if ,,,e ,,,ere going to use a tactic like
    tllis: Let's say 'in the Gray hearings,
    PRESIDENT : (Unintelligible)
    DEAN: . where everything is cast that, that we're,
    we're, that we're the people and '
    they're not -- that Hoover was above reproach,
    which is just not accurate.
    PRESIDENT: Bull shit. Bull shit.
    DEAN: Total bull shit. The, uh, the person \<lho
    could, would destroy Hooverls image is going
    to be this man, Bill Sullivan. ' Uh, that's
    what's at stake there. Also, it's going to
    tarnish quite severely, uh.
    Some of the FBI.
    DE.':'N: Some of the FBI. And a former President.
    PRESIDENT : Fine.
    . ... _._-.... .. _---
    /
    . I
    ....------ ---
    MARCH 13. 1973. FROM TO Z:OO P . M.
    DEAN: Uh, he's going to lay it out , and he, it's
    just all hell is going to break loose once
    he does it. It's going to change the atmos -
    phere of the Gray hearings . It's going to
    change the "Thole atmosphere of the Hater-
    . gate hearings .
    PRESIDEnT: Not much .
    DEAN: Now the risk
    PRESIDENT : How will it change, John?
    DEAN: How will it change? Because it ' ll put them
    -. . -... .. -.
    in context that, that, uh, uh, . a government
    tute was used in the past for the mos t fla-
    grant political .
    . PRESIDENT : How does that help us?
    DEAN : Em.; does it help us?
    Pm being, I'm j u st being
    Yea..1'1 , I, I appreciate l'lhat you a re doing.;
    Red herring. Is that what you mean?
    DEAN: Yes. It's a7- it's a red herring. It's
    wbat the public already believes. It's
    just that-- people would just -- . 1 would say,
    react, that, oh Chri st, more of that stuff.
    Dh, they're all, you knm.;, they're all bad
    down there . Because it's -a one way street
    . right now.
    PRESIDENT: The press may not use it?
    DEA1I : Pardon?
    PRESIDElIT: The press may use it? They may not play it.
    D:C:AN: It'd be difficult not to. Uh, it'd be
    difficult not to.

    ._- .....,."', ..... - ... -
    r===-=-:::-::::-::=- ----- ---
    17
    13 . 1973 , 1 2 :4 2 TO 2:00 P . M.
    is it that Sul livan T d be "Till ing t o do
    thi s ?
    DEAN: I thi n:-< the, the qui d pro quo ','lith Sullivan
    is that he vl a r,ts so:-r:e day b a ck ::'n the Bureau
    very badly.
    PRESIDaiT: That's easy.
    DEAN: That's right.
    PRESIDENT: Do you think after he did this to the Bureau
    that they'd 'dant him bac:-c ? "Th ey.!J If
    there is a !Jthey . "
    DEAN: un, p r obably no t . But I think that , uh, he
    could a lso pos sibl y do -- Hhat, ,,,ha t Bill-
    desire in life is, is to set up
    a national, or domes tic n a tional s e curity
    intellige nce system, a plan, a program. He
    says defi cient . Dh , we've never been ef-,
    efficient, sinc e Hoover l os t his guts several -
    y ears ago. If you r e c a ll, h e and Tom Huston
    worked on it. Uh , Tom Huston had your instruc-
    tion to go out and do it. Then the whole
    thing just crumbled.
    P?ESIDEIIT: Do you think Hoover '.'lOuld have cooperated?
    DEAN: That's all Sullivan really wants. Even if
    we just put him off studying it for a couple
    of years, we could put him oui in the CIA
    or some place else where , be felt.
    PRESIDENT: Put him there; we 'll do it.
    DEAN: I think that's ,,hat the ans\'ler .: is. l've
    never really .
    PRESIDENT No prob 1em with Sullivan. 'I>le I 11 put hLrn
    DEAlT:
    I mean, he's a valuable Dan. (Phone rings) Uh, now,
    \'lOuld the FBI t hen turn o n him, piss on him?
    There would be some e ffort at that. That's
    right, they woul d say he!s disgruntled.
    18
    BARCH 13, 1973, FRGr-l 12:42 TO 2:00 P.r.! .
    He was canned by Hoover. He is angry, he's
    coming back. But that would kind of, I
    would think a lot of that would be lost in
    the, uh, in the shuffle of what he is layi:::s
    out. I don't know if he's given me his best
    yet. I ' don't know if he's got
    tion than the way he has already told me.
    Those were just a couple off-the-cuff
    PRESIDENT: P.nd that's why you said that -- Why do you
    think he is now telling you this? Hhy is
    he doing this now?
    DEAN: '''ell, the way it came out is, '.-Then I, when
    the Time Magazine article broke on the fact
    that it charged that the Hhite House had .
    directed that newsmen and i'lhite House staff
    people be, uh, subject to some sort of sur-
    , veillance for national security reasons, l '
    called, in tracking down had happeD-ec...
    l called Sullivan and I said, "Bill, you'd
    better come over and talk to about tha"c
    and tell me what You know." I was calling
    him. to really determine if he \'las a leak.
    That's one of the reasons. I \'las curious -:;0
    k-now where this might have come from
    he ''las the operative man at the Bureau at
    time. He's the one who did it. Uh, he ";ould
    not, you know, he came over and he was shccl-:ed
    and, uh, distraught, and the like about
    (unintelligible) (laughs) uh, anc..
    then, and after going through his explanation
    of all "That had happened, he started volur:-
    teering this other thing. He said, II John ,
    what, this is the only thing I can of
    during this administration' that has any taint
    of political use but it doesn't really
    me 'cause it was a national security purpose.
    These people ''lorked-- there was sensitive .
    material that ,\'las getting out, ,,,as getting out
    to reporters." '
    (Unintelligible) what we ordered?
    DEAN: That's right .
    ........ --. ' ._-- -----,--- --- -_.,- - '-', . "
    MARCH 13, 1973, 12:42 TO 2:00 P.M.
    Of course , it had to be true after h e
    (unintelligible) involved in the God
    Vi etnaJ7J I'Jar.
    DEAN : That's right.
    PRESIDENT: That's what it was.
    DEAN: Then he told me about going to Paris and
    working with the Paris Police on Schraft
    and all that and I, I , he said that doesn't
    bother me, but he said, "John, ,,,hat does
    bother me is that you all have been por-
    trayed as politically using _"
    PRESIDENT: And we never did .
    DEAN: And we neverhave. He said the
    Administration didn't either. The only .
    PRESID:GiJT: Never.
    DEAN: . . e:<ciden<:2 tha t he can recall that t..here has
    been a rea! political use has been during
    Democratic t enure. I said, "For example>
    Bill, \'That are you talking about?" Then he
    told me this examp le of, of, uh, the "lalter
    Jenkins affair, when DeLoach
    PRESIDENT: Yeah.
    DEAN: and, and Fortas, and
    something out of that.
    (unintelligible)
    PRESID:C::NT:. Definitely. - The Kennedys, the Kennedys used '
    it> let me say, poli t ically on that steel
    thing.
    DEAN: That's right.
    PRESIDEHT: That \'las not, that was not a national security>
    was it?
    DEAN: No. Now I asked, uh, I asked somebody about
    that and they told me that what happened
    ... -.-: - :- .. :..., . . " -. . _ .. . " - - - " - . - - - - - -_._------ -..--_.- - . - -. _--
    20
    1'LARCH 13 ,1973, FROM 12:42 TO 2:00 P.H.
    is that, uh-- they were being defen-
    sive of Kennedy, and so that the pers on who
    . would defend Kennedy necessarily was say-
    ing that Kennedy had given Hoover orders
    and Hoover, being typical in his response ,
    tried to get it ye sterday as far as the
    answer for the President . And why
    he sent people out in the middle of the
    night and the blame really fell on Hoover.
    And, and this might be ( unintelligible) over :
    there though, who knows.
    PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible )
    DEAN: Hell .. that's right.
    PRESIDENT: It's still wrong.
    DEA..TII : Ynat's right. Sure.
    PRESIDENT: Good God . Can you imagine if somebody --
    steel company that had raised hell about ..
    .. or an auto8obile company , about some-
    thing, silly thing, Ruckelshaus does, and
    we send FBI Agents out to arrest? Jesus
    Christ, now. Does he knol'l about the- bug-
    _ ging of Martin Luther King?
    DEAN:
    PRESIDENT: I wonder if he'd tell that" that "iOuld be
    good.
    DEAN: I think he would tell e verything he knows.
    PRESIDENT: You do?
    DEAN: un huh. That's why I'm saying he is, he is"
    he is a trem -- he's a bomb. Uh.. now -the
    fact is .
    You really have to keep telling.
    DEAN: iihat?
    PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible)
    ,.--
    21

    HARCH 13, 1973, FRON 12:42 TO 2:00 P.N.
    DEAN: Well, if that's, that's the real problem
    is, how it's structured, haw can it be done.
    Uh, he sent me this note and I called up and
    I said, "Bill, I appreciate getting that; note
    very much.
    1I
    I said, ItIt takes a lot of guts
    to send a note like that to me." And he
    said - I said, lilt's kind of a pleasure to
    see a man stand up, blm'ling a little smoke
    up him and the like." Uh, he said, H\'lell,.
    John, I mean it. I am perfectly to
    do anything you >-Tant. If you ,'rant me to go
    up and testify, I will." I said,. "Hell, how
    much, you have just given me some tidbits that
    you, in our conversation and I ,'rculd really
    like to again repeat : Can you put together
    "hat you do knm'i; just for your O'.'in use right
    nmr, just put it together on a pad, go through
    all your recollections; and then also tell me
    how you can substantiate it, and, ",hat kind
    of cross-examination you mi ght b e subject to
    on it if you did testify.1t So he is doing
    that. Now, the question I'..-e, I've had is, .
    how in the world can we progr2...:.11 something
    like this? The i'ia -- I, I just have a feel-
    ing that it would be bad for one Bill Sulli-
    to quietly appear up on, uh, on some
    Senator's doorstep, and say, "Irve got some
    information you ought to ha ve. tr t'\.Jell, w'here
    did you get it? Hhere-- >-Thy are you up here?"
    !!The White House sent me. II That 'would be bad.
    The other thing is, maybe this information
    could be brought to the attention of the
    wnite House, and the House could say,
    00 .. to, uh, Eastland, HI think you ought to
    call an executive session and. hear his testi-
    mony. This is quite troublesome, the infor-
    mation that has been presented to us. It's
    so troublesome, we can't hold it here and
    hope to, uh, and rest comfortable."
    PK2:SIDZNT: T,v..'1y, ''ihy on the other hand doesn't he just
    present it to Eastland? I mean .. uh -- \'1hy
    executive session? That doesn't serve .
    DEAN: Well, it would, one, because you're trying
    The first approach would be uot tv
    . ... . --=---..;...;.;.;...-;;.; " .:... .
    22
    'lARCH 1973, FROM 12:42 TO 2:00 P. M. l' J , _
    the Burecu, not to tarnish the names. It's
    going to leak out of there, though, quite
    obviously. If it doesn 't, we'd make sure
    i t did. Uh - (coughs) (pause) If, if,
    uh, Sullivan went up to Eastland cold and
    just said, or Hruska. I Hould. think they
    'l'Tould say, "Go on back down to the Depart-
    ment of Justice where you work, and let's not
    start all this."
    PRESIDENT: Suppose another thing, Patrick Gray says to
    either Eastland or to, or to Hruska or any-
    body on that who is the tiger
    on the Cor.nit t ee on our side , on the Com-
    mittee, the Judiciary
    DEAN: Cook's.
    PRESIDENT: ( Unintelligible)
    DEAN: Gurney, Gurney has been good. Gurney was
    good during the ITT hearings , and he, he'll
    study, he'll ge t prepared. Uh, .
    But , would he go after the Bureau? (Unin-
    DEAN:
    .-
    . telligible)
    not going after the Bureau. Hhat
    they are doing is, they're taking the testi-
    mony of somebody wh o is going after the
    Bureau . .
    PRESIDENT: Yeah, I know that. I'm just thinking o r
    the.
    DEAN: Yeah.
    PRESIDENT: They all look down the road and see '-That
    would be the result of what they are doing
    is, won't they? I would think so.' I mean,
    I'm just trying, hOi" -- \.;ould they go after
    Johnson? (Paus e) Let's look at the distant
    future. Uh, look at the -- how bad wou:!.d it
    hurt the country , John , to have the FBI so
    terribly discredited? ( Unintelligible)
    --
    MARCH 13, 1973, FROM 12:42 TO 2:00 P.M.
    DEAN: (Unintelligible) I tye, It ve, kicked this
    around with Dick Moore, these , these broader
    ques tions, and, I think it \1Ould be damaging
    to the FBI, uh, but maybe itts time to shake
    the FBI and rebuild it.
    PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible)
    DEAN: I'm not so sure the FBI is everything it's
    cracked up to be. I, I'm convinced the FBI
    isn't everything the public thinks it is.
    PRESIDENT: No.
    DEAN: I know quite well it isn't.
    PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible) i .f you could get, uh, ;ferry
    I'Tilson in there rather than a political
    appointee. vlhat is your feeling at tte
    about Gray? Can he hang in? Should
    he? I don't know.
    DEAN: lr'1.
    PRESIDENT: A,.rfully close.
    DEAN': ... I -- they're going to vote this -- they have
    an executive session this, afternoon to
    invite me to testify.
    PRESIDErIT: Sure.
    DEAN: un., there's no going to
    invi te me. Uh, I would s.ay , base d on how
    I handle the: (1) the formal letter that
    comes out of the Committee asking for infor-
    mation, and I programmed that they do get
    specific, just what in the hell do they want
    to know that I've got, and lay it out in the
    letter that's sent down here asking me to
    appear so I can be responsive, fully
    Respond to the letter.
    DEAN: ... Respond to the letter in full. I think I
    have, I feel I have nothing to hide, as far
    as, uh, the issue they've raised.
    PF.ESID"C:NT: Hould you respond under oath?
    MARCH 13, 1973, FROM 12:42 TO 2 :00
    DEAN: I think I would be willing to, yes.
    PRESIDENT: Th2.t's what I'd say because th2.t's vThat I
    am preparing in the press thing. I'll S2.y
    you'll respond under: oath in a letter. You
    will not appear in a formal session. "
    DEAN: That's", that's our present position.
    PRESIDENT: \fua t if they say, \'lha t if they S2.y, II\-!ould
    he be willing to be questioned under oath?"
    DEAN: That's not ''lhat the question is. Yes, I'd
    be willing to be questioned under oabh,
    but we're not going up.
    PRESIDENT: No, no. But
    DEAN: Oh, I think that \'lould be a hell or a bad
    precedent.
    PR3SIDEnT: Ok2.Y. I just \-ianted to be sure we don' t
    cross that bridge". I agree. You -- but
    you would respond to liritten interroga-
    tories.
    Th2.t's right.
    PRESIDENT: it. Okay.
    DEAN": NOTI'l, uh, after, after that, ir we've been
    responsive, their argument for holding up
    Gray's confirmation based on me is, should
    be gone. Sure, they're going to say it
    rc.ises more questions than it ansHers, but
    if He're-- but that can go on forever.
    \-[e've taken the central points they '-'1ant
    ans,.ers to , given them the responses, that
    puts something in Eastl2.nd's hand that can
    say, "All right, it's time, it's time to vote."
    And Eastland says he's. got the votes to get
    Gr2.Y through. Now, but VThat h2.ppens on the
    Senate Floor is something else, 'cause Byrd is
    opposing Gray . Byrd's got good control of
    that Southern bloc. "
    25 '
    "
    HARCR FROf.! 12:42' TO 2::00 P . r1 .
    PRESIDENT : Not totally.
    DEAN: No.
    PRESIDENT: . Byrd is running for leader of the
    Senate. A lot of them may desert him on
    this.
    DEAN: But on the other hand, of course,
    has come out and said that he favors, ini-
    tially he supported Gray's, uh, confirma-
    tion.
    PRESIDENT: E;-l feeling is that they would like (unintel-
    ligible). I think that they'd .like to have,
    a, an excuse not to do it. Maybe they'll
    use, not you, but all this crap about hear-
    ings (unintelligible)
    DEAN: "lell, if they say:z, if they say they have to
    hold up Gray's confirmation until the Hater-
    gate hearings are c::ompleted.
    Cb, that's .
    D2AN: that's the vehicle
    PRE3IDENT: 'Yne best of both worlds for us, John.
    DEAN: Tha t 's right.
    Because Gray, in my should not be
    the head of the FBI. Not because of any
    character or other flavls or thoughtless
    flaws, but because he is going to be too
    much like Kleindienst. After going through
    the hell of the hearing, he will not be a
    good Director, as far as we're concerned.
    I probably true. He'll be a,
    he'll be a very suspect Director. Not that
    I don't think Pat ,'; on' t do "That we ''lant. I,
    I read him a little differently than Dick in
    that regard. Like he's still keeping close
    touch with me. He's calling me. He's . given
    -.... . .... - '" . _" . .
    MARCH 13,1973. FROM 12:42 TO 2 :00 P.M.
    me his private line. We talk at night, just
    how do you want me to handle this, so and so
    forth. So he still plays, playing in tight
    and still being involved. But I think he.
    PRESIDENT: But he couldn't do it.
    DEAN: But he can't do it. He's under, he's going
    to be under such surveillance by his own
    people -- watch every move he's making--uh,
    that'll be the difficult thing for Pat. Not
    that Pat wouldn't want to still play ball,
    but he may not be able to.
    PRESIDENT: I agree. That's what I meant.
    DEAN: Pat has already gotten himself, himself, - in
    a situation where he 's got this Mark Felt as
    his number tvlO man. These other people are
    surrounding him. If you put a guy like
    Jerry Wilson in there he could just, you
    knmv, \vipe this, and say, "Gent-elmen, I'm
    putting my own team in, and I'm going to
    people in I've met around the country
    who are good office directors; Sacks out of
    C::c.icago, II wherever, and just put his OIvn
    team together for the, for the Headquarter's
    Office.
    PRESIDE!rr: So where do you come out?
    DEAN: Gray's already been to major
    personnel decisions. (Pause) .:.LvlOuldn't be
    surprised to see that if they say that
    they cannot go fOr\'lard \'1i t):l Gray's hearings
    because of the Watergate.
    PHESIDEl'JT: \<fnere would that be done, at what pOlm::.
    in the Committee or on the Floor or both?
    DSAN: It could happen. It \'lould certainly be
    voted on first in the, uh, uh, in the Com-
    mittee, in the Judiciary Committee.
    PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible)
    27
    HARCR 13, '973, FRm-'!12:42 TO 2 : 00 F.B.
    DEAN: The question is, then, uh, it 'll
    be put on the calendar by the leadership.
    I assume that that's.
    PRESIDENT: The leadership might determine that vre "rill
    not put it on the calendar until after the
    Watergate hearings.
    DEAN: That's right.
    PRESIDENT : Then .ve could then. Gray could then come in
    and say I will not wai t that long.
    DEAN: And they r 11 __ ,,,hen they -- you're -- IIThis ,
    this is to the leadership
    o f the FBI and I I'Jill have to wi thdrm'[ -
    based on this." . Hhat .. Tould he nice for all
    would be to get Gray voted out of the Com-
    mittee ' .
    PRESIDENT: Yeah.
    DEAN:
    wi th a, wi th a positive vote, uh, enough to
    get him out of the Corwuittee, and then lock
    . him at limb o there:
    PRESIDENT: IVDat is 1loore's judgement about Sullivan?
    Does he know?
    DEAN: Yeah, he's uh, uh , he says it's a piece of
    dynamite. He says it depends and .'re both
    agree, that i t it -- the ''lay it would be
    done would be a secret, whether it was done.
    T,-ihether-- this isn't t he . sort of thing Ire
    c ould just leap out and do. Have to be very
    carefully thought through . Have to be,
    have to decide in advance should the White
    House not be involved or should 1'le be involved?
    If we're going to play with we are going
    to probably have to say that l'le were involved
    and structure it in a way that there is
    nothing improper th our involvement.
    P?.ESID'2:NT: The difficulty \'ri th the v,Thi te House being
    involved is that if we are involved in ois sing
    on Johp,:"nn -- tha.t' s only thing that concerns
    me .
    r.1/1Rc:-r 13,1973, FRQ;.! 12:42" TO 2:00 P . H.
    'Iha t' s right.
    PRZSIDsN'I : That I S 'tihy it really ought to be.> I mean,
    if he could just . . .
    DEAN: I suppose the ans1'rer , is saying" to.> to have
    him -- to say to him
    PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible )
    DEAN: ... You've got, you know, this is something
    "H:''1at you've, you've intimated a fe1'1 thine;s
    to Ee, uh, the proper place to take that
    is to the Senate Judiciary
    mittee or to the Attorney "
    (Pause) And then have Dick take it to the
    Or is that too close to the
    President, still?
    PRZSIDENT : ?irst hand, if he takes it to the Corn..rnittee,
    it's better if the conducting a
    bearing. (Unintelligible). 'Hait a minute,
    he .. ,orlcs for tb.e Attorney General" doesn T t
    he.
    DEAN: 'I:.'1at's right. If ' he takes it to Kleindienst,
    !Geindienst is, going to say:> "Bill, just
    don't do it because you are going to take
    DeLoach's name' dm-m '\'li th i t ,and DeLoach
    is a friend of ours."
    PRESID:2:NT: Bull shit.
    DEAN: Something I have always questioned.
    PRE3IDZNT: Nobody is a friend of ours. Let's face it. Let's
    don't worry about that sort of thing.
    (Pause)
    Well , itTs something I will ,uh, I think I
    ought to ( unintelligible) kick around with
    Dick Moore , 'cause ...
    PRESID:::r;'I': Yeah.
    29
    MARCH '3 , 1973, FROM 12 :42 TO 2:00 P . M.
    DEAN: But first of all , I've got to, uh, just
    have to be thought through every inch of
    t he way. It came here ..
    PRESIDeNT: Sure.
    DEAN: l ate yesterday afternoon.
    PRESIDENT: Sure .
    DEAN: It was not -- Bob said, uh, Ivhen I talked to
    him, he s aid he was quite excited about it,
    as Ehrlichrnan said, gave a very favorable
    IIUh huh. II Uh, and I said, "Irell , I'm not
    going to rush anything on this. It's --
    We've a little bomb here that we might 'Want
    to drop at one . .
    PF..ESIDENT: Yea.'-1.
    DE1UI : point down the road."
    PRESIDENT: Yea.'-1, yeah.
    DEAN: Hayn e, maybe t he forum to do it is something
    totally out of the Committee cont ext between
    the Gray confirmation hearings and the Hater-
    gate hearings. Naybe let him g o over to U.S
    . Nelvs, or '.'rho knows Ivhat it would be, but I'le
    ought to consider every option, now that
    we've got it, and see if.
    Rather than doing it in a hearing, (pause) doing it
    in the press. Then that \'1ill force the hear-
    ing to c all him. That's another \'Fay you c an
    do on this. Have him be selected to,
    Give an interview.
    PRESIDelIT: .,. to give an interview. I would do it in U. s.
    News. Do it in (unintelligible) wire servi ce
    guy or somethi ng . A respected damn reporter.
    w'hy not go to a jackass like r101lenhoff? No,
    he's too close to use.
    30
    !LZl.RCH 13 r 1973, FRON 12: 42 TO 2: 00 P . H.
    DEAN: Hell, that 's interesting. J.\Olfi , Nollenhoff
    is, is close but, by God, you can't program
    Mollenhoff to do anything .
    PRESIDENT: No .
    DEAN: And if, uh
    PRESIDENT: No. And also, we are in a position on
    Mollenhoff, who's been fighting us some,
    that maybe, maybe Mollenhoff would be a
    pretty good prospect for this thing because
    it's the kind of a story he loves, he digs
    on some. You couldn I t tell him, hm"ever T

    uh, you couldn' t let him know (unintelligible)
    story part. Or Sullivan just goes to talk to
    him, says , "\'iell, now, hell, you're a hell of
    a, hell of a guy, and, uh, I just want to tell
    you a few things."
    Or, can you call Clark and say -- can I call
    Clark and say, Clark, a guy has
    brought me a piece of dynamite I don't
    \ vc..,."l. t in the te House? II
    PRESIDEN'I': lie will write that, though, ,wnrt he?
    No. Because that'd look -like that's a
    set-up deal. We ll, Clark Mollenhoff is
    the first guy to (unintelligible) uncover
    PRESIDENT: Yeah.
    a piece o f anything i he' 11 say no \<lay.
    (Pause)
    PRESIDENT: But he's willing to do it.
    DEAN: Uh huh.
    PRESIDENT: That's very important, at
    DEl>.N: Dh huh.
    -----
    .
    58
    13, 1973 12:42 70 2:00 P.M.
    PRESIDENT: Are they going to go back as far as
    Chappaqui ddick?
    DE.AN: \-Jell, yeah, but this, this fel10w'lwrked
    into '71 on this. He was up there. He
    talked to everybody in that He,
    you know, he, he's the one ,.;ho caus ed
    a lot of embarrassment for Kennedy already
    by saying -- he went up there as a ne'l';s-
    paperman. "So '1,hy aren't you checking this?
    Why aren't you looking there?" And pointing
    the press' attention to things. the
    guy did a masterful job. I have never
    had the full report.
    v;ell, coming back to the Sullivan thing, you'd
    better now go ahead and talk to him.
    You will nm ... talk to :Koore, again to Hoore,
    and. uh, then ,,hat?
    Uh, I'll see if we have something that's
    viable. And if it's .
    In other words
    van again?
    have you talked to Sulli-
    DE..<\N:
    Oh, yes. Yes I plan on it.
    FRESIDENL: i-.1hy the hell dod t you get him in and talk
    to him? (Unint elligible)
    DE..I\N: Well j he's I asked him last night and
    he said, "John give me a day or so to get my"
    all my recollections together,"
    Right.
    , l>
    59
    MARCH 13,1973 FROM 12: 42 TO 2:00 P.B.
    DEAN: ... and that Has yesterday. So I thought
    I would call him this evening and say, tLh
    "Bill, I'd just like to know . ."
    PRESIDENT: You s e e, the fact that you've talked to him
    will become known. So maybe, maybe the best
    thing is to say " I am not concerned here,"
    and you say that he, he's to turn this
    over, and you say we 'Hill not handle it.
    Then make, then an)'i'18Y, it gets to the
    Committee, aren't they going to say,
    liThe IThite House turns over inforulation,
    on the FBI?" That's the -- I . don It
    how the Christ to get it down there.
    DE.6,N: Well, that's w'hat I t hink I can kick around
    wi th Dick l'Ioore. He and I do very well just
    bouncing these things.
    PRESIDEN1: Yeah.
    DFAN: back and forth and coming up ''lith something
    that '
    PRESIDENT: I think a newsman
    DEAN; we don't have to be embarrassed ' about it.
    PRESIDENT : a neHsrnan, a hell of a break for a '
    neHspaper.
    DEAN: Oh yeah.
    PRESIDE.ri"T: ... A hell of a story. Uh, maybe the Star would
    just run a hell of a story. I mean a real
    bust on the FBI. Then, and then, and then
    the menber, the you, you, for
    example, on this basis could call Gurney,
    and say, " Now look. IJe're on to something
    very hot here. I c an just tell you. I'm
    not going to tel l you 2.nything more. Go
    after it, forget you ever had this call ." And
    t hen he goes .
    I
    . ....,.
    ,
    l"LARCH 13,1973 FRQ}112:42 TO 2:00 P.M.
    DEAN: Uh, huh.
    It seems to me that that's a very
    effective way to get it out.
    60
    : Uh huh.
    Sul livan
    Another thing is, I don't think
    ,.;ould give up the \f'nite House.
    Sullivan
    one liability
    hi s kno"ll edg e
    occurred. Dh
    as I said could, there's
    in Sullivan is thatrs
    of the earlier that
    PRESIDENT: That we did?
    D;:;'?\N: That we did.
    nm., you should tell them. Oh, you
    mean he woUldnlt, he'd say, hetd .say, I did no
    political at all. !-ly, my ;..--ork where
    theytre concerned in Nixon Administration was,
    'Was solely in the national security.1I
    DEAN: Tnat's right.
    PRESIDENT: And that is totally true.
    DEAN: That's , right.
    Okay. Well, good luck.
    DEAN: All right sir.
    PRES IDEm' : It's never dull, is it?
    DEAN: Never.
    <,
    "
    I
    l
    I-'
    N
    V1
    I
    N
    I-'
    o
    P?3SICEN'r :
    PRESIDENT:

    :
    :
    PRESIDENT:
    Um l:11.:_..1":I .
    \Veil, \';e ll, " suppose I i"ia!!t to CO:'"!C OO'd!! \vi th
    r.1y counsel 2.1"1.G. question
    1 4
    No . Written i nterrogator i es , we ' ve said every --
    t hese , these are ho!!est , hur;\ bl e "ho are
    g oing t: ;,der oath, they 're s'dear ing -to me t h is is
    the e xt e nt of t heir kn. owledg e: ah .
    And they will, what, but o n the o the r
    we're not s aying that t hey ha v e additiona l
    knm'lledge (phone rings ) not as a r esu l t of this,
    that \Ve "lOn't answer \'1ritten interrogatories.
    (Non-pertinent telephone conversa tion.)
    (Loud noi ses.)
    Ah , Bob . . go on, uh.
    Well I think tha t, a h .
    Yes .
    ... this would be very disarming a lso for Ervin
    to, you know, if he c ame dm-Tn here and had
    a little with yo u .
    I thi.nk "'hen you see him alone, it's better
    than having-- Baker's a little \-I hi;:>per-snapper,
    he'll try to make his point. I've seen Baker.
    I tell you, for example, something that came
    back on, fed back through the Attorney General
    and the I>.ttorney General wanted to talk to you
    about, but I don't know if it's necessary
    or not. Ah, Ba ker said that. raised with
    Kleindie n s t, i n their p rivate me eting, after
    he met pith both Ervin and Baker-- He said, uhf
    I want to talk to you, ah, about this '68 -
    bugging incid ent, which the President
    r:'_entioned to rc.e, \,hen I met \'lith him. This is
    Bake r speaking to Klei ndienst, a nd Kleindie nst
    said we ll ah, I said I wante d t o talk to you
    about that al s o because (clears throat)
    Kleindienst knows t hat DeLoach is
    involved. Kleindienst nnd DeLoac h are good
    friends.
    ;-:"' ;' ?.Ctl 13, 1973 FROi-: 1:25 PH TO 2:1U P:-l 17
    PR:GS::JEN']?:

    'l:'h2 long and short 0-;: ,y;"a t I simply say -that
    I think that , ah, Kleindienst, would like to
    off a little on l ooking into
    '68 t;"ing and Da%er wants to get
    facts on it. So (s ighs ) it's kind of a
    hiatus right and I don't
    Baker will go aboard unless Kleindienst assures
    him they have sOillething to and I don't
    know if Kleindienst has anything to
    Ee won't if h2 has it. The question
    is no',.; ,.;hat about Sullivan: J-lIe you gonna
    con''J'ert him?
    No, Sullivan, ah, is, an, cO:rt.'";lit ted to h:::.ve
    me or have prepared for me in his _own type-
    written, ah, product , his list of all the
    horribles that he is , ah .
    Yeah .
    .. ' been able to recollect .
    I \'l2nt that, I
    notr-_ing more.
    I thi:n.k so.
    want tha t for of course ,
    Yo>.: need it very much. I ,,;ant it. NOVI, you
    ....,-ere saying too, ah, what really, ah, \vhere the"
    this thing leads, I mean in terms of the -
    'I,l1_:!lnerabili ties and so forth. It's your vie';-;
    the vulnerables are basically Mitchell, Colson,
    Haldeman, indirectly, possibly directly, and
    of course, the second level as far as the
    White House is concerned , Chapin.
    And I'd say Dean, to a degree.
    You? Why?
    Kell, because I've been allover this thing
    lib; a blanket.
    I know, I know, but you know all about it,
    but you didn't, you in it after the deed
    \"las done .
    17, 1973 1:25 PM TO 2:10 PM
    :
    DEA.N:
    P?3SIDE)JT:
    DEP-2'[ :
    ... if, if so::\ebo:iy out a:: here Here to start
    s aying , or say , a ll right , Jeb , you ' re gonna ,
    you ' r2 , gonna the heat cn this
    one, uh
    So:n:=body here ' s gonna sa:l "'chat?
    No.
    Can't do that.
    No.
    I thir.k 'dha t. you've got to do, to the extent.
    that you car., John, i s cut her off at the pass.
    And you cut off at the pass. Liddy ar.d his
    bunch just did this as part of their
    They "ere out on a lark. They ";ent beyond any
    .. ent they ever had .
    Now on the Segretti thing, I think you've
    just got to Chapin and all of the.;.'11 have
    just got to t a ke the heat. Look, you ' ve got
    to ad:.,i t the facts, John/ ar.d
    That's right.
    that's our and that ' s that. And
    paid him. And paid a lot of people.
    I , I just think on Seg retti, no matter how
    bad it i 5-- It isn't nearly as bad as people
    i t was. Espionage, sabotage , shit .
    The int ent, when Segretti was hired,. "las
    nothing evi l, nothing vicious , nothing bad,.
    nothing. espionage, not sabotage. It
    was pranksterism that got out of hand, it --
    and we don't know that . ' And I think we c an
    l ay our story out there. .hh, I have no
    proble...'"tt \ 'li th the Segretti thil:.g. It ' s just
    not that serious. The , ah, ah; the other
    potential ah, is
    and that is .
    17 , 1973 1'.20:'1 1:25 TO 2 : 10 P;-l 22
    :
    DEAN :

    In connection vlith !lur:.t?
    In with Hunt and Liddy both.
    'i'hey wo=ked for him?
    They tnese el1m'1s had to be sorGe
    as learned after the fact.
    They went and wEnt into Dr . Ellsberg ' s
    doctor ' s cffice and they had, they were geared
    up with all this CIA equipment , cameras
    and the lil:e . they tur ned ,the stuff
    b ack in to the c n ,. some point i n time and
    l eft f ilr;c in the C2.f..''2ra . Ah, Cl F-. has not
    put this together , and they don't what
    it al l c,eans right nm." But it ,.,:ouldn't
    take a very sharp inves tigator v ery long
    because you've got pictures in the CIA files
    t ha t they had to t urn over to Jus-tice.
    vlha t in the \<lOr Id, \'lha t in the na.,."tte of
    God Ehrl ich.'nan h,].'\.Ting so;nething (uni ntelli-
    gibl e) the Ellsberg?
    They were trying to this was a part of
    ah, an operati on that , an i n connection
    wi t h the Pentagon papers . They were
    t hE "'.101e thing and they Hanted to get
    Ellsberg's psychiatric records for some reason.
    \vhy?
    I don ' t knm'l.
    This is the first I ever heard of this.
    I, I (unintelligible)
    J..h
    c are Clbout Ellsberg was not our problem.
    'i'hat ' s right.
    Jesus Christ.
    ""'-,
    --,
    P FES I DSNT:
    :
    PR:E:SID:2NT:
    :
    it, i t , you knol,'/ , i t '.Jas
    2..!1 :Lh::-licn'::l.J.n st.rt::.cture I John
    o.idn t t c;"./'2::: 1 1 ve ne-..f 2r 2.ske:!. hill if
    h e I didn't to know.
    I can ' t see that getting into, into this
    h earins
    \\1ell, leak.
    come up.
    Here's-- no, here's the 'day it cen
    Yeah.
    In the CIA's files which they which the
    Co:r,,'"(',it tee is asking for in the materie_l
    they turned over the Depar-L'11ent of Justice
    Yeah.
    . there are all the materials relating to
    Hunt. In there are these pictures which the
    CIA c.e'.-elo:;?ed and they 've got Gordon Liddy
    standing proud as punch outside this doctor's
    office , .. iith his !12.J.'11E: en iL And it's this
    r.,a te::::- ia2.; it's not go ing to take very leng
    for a:-. investigator to go back and say, \'lhy
    ';7oulc. this sO!CIebo:ly be at the doctor's office,.
    and they'd find out that there \"as a break-in
    at the doctor's and then you ' d find
    Liddy on the and then you'd start
    working it back. I don't think they'll
    ever reach that point.
    Carnpaign.
    This "as way
    It's
    It's irrslevant. Right ..
    'I' :nat t s the point . That's ,/here that's
    where where , ah , Ervin's rules of
    r slc\'a.ncy-- I'd ::.ike to kno'd-- ,;hat the
    hell h2S this got to do ilith it?
    It has nothing as a l ot of these th ngs that
    " .
    23
    they stUInb12 alons into, ah, s
    "

    !
    I
    I
    !
    r
    -J
    -...)
    ..
    I\)
    \0
    I
    -...) "
    ..

    DE..:C.1J :
    -::-. "'';".
    ... - .. , .
    TRA'TSC2:r::OT OF A 2SCORDING O? A
    CONVER3'::.TIOrr
    JO}'ir,r
    20 1973, 7:29 7:43
    John Dean, please .
    Yes, Er . President.
    Hello.
    Yes, sir.
    I hear you're having rather long days
    the se days, aren 't you?
    Yeah. (Laughs)
    I guess we all have . Yeah .
    Well, they'll continue to be longer.
    What happened, uh, today in the, uh, the
    Senate. Anything, uh ...
    I understand that Gray , uh, took a
    little beating up there today. Uh , he ",as-- '
    apparently , the approach they're Korking
    that he's been an abandoned man . Uh ...
    (Unintelligible).
    Evidenced by the fact that Kleindienst, uh,
    would not let him (cough) excuse De--insert
    things in the record that he desired to
    insert in the record and it was quite clear
    that he has been left hanging by, uh>
    countermanded by you and your decision.
    Well, you know in a sense that I didn't
    cQunterDand hiw at all, I ...
    ::-:; , I knm';, this is a the!:le they're playing.
    ;
    ?O . 1973, 7:29 7:43 P . M.
    D:::P.I.J:
    He could just ask for Sullivan .
    How would that be?
    That wouldn ' t be bad at all.
    You don't have Sullivan's report yet?
    Uh, no, Sullivan, uh, told me --
    he was out of wi ll have it for
    me tor:1Orro;l.
    Yeah .
    He \7ill skip a meet ing that he
    has in the morning to make . ..
    Just a second .
    3
    >. _ ...."1-:: .. .
    - -"7'
    .'
    .. . he gets it (unintelligible) and ever to
    J uss a second .
    ( Privileged deleted)
    Uh, so, he will have it over to me
    and, that ...
    Right.
    I absolutely have to have it
    tOGorrow. There just can't be any
    further deadline . The is here
    to look and see what you 've got and
    he said, "Hel l, I think I've got
    I think it's
    (c.:-;::':'.'::elligible) . " I s2.id, "i':ell,
    3ill , I want to see it just as
    Gul:kly as possible morning."
    4
    PR!::SIiJE::I': Good.
    DEAN : Cause it will he over.
    And the other witness they 've now
    subpoenaed--there are other witnesses--
    there's the Eoback girl the
    COlT's! ttee, \':ho, she \lc.S interrogated by
    staff and as a result
    her uh, the
    FBI - -alleging that th2.t he.d been l eaked t:,.-
    me to them and then, of course, th2.t was
    not .
    PRESIDENT: That's not true .
    ... not true . And the other fellow they're
    calling is a fellow by the name of Thomas
    LU!:'!bard \':ho is trying to establisll a lin::
    between Dean on that one . Lombard did
    work for me in my office and ,
    and , uh, did volunteer work for Liddy and
    at one time he saw in my office .
    Big deal . ( Unintelligi ble ) purely uh.
    yCc'. l:r:o'.! .
    r;::ll, is that \;hat Lumbard \ril: testify
    to, or wil l he testify to, u h ...
    DEAN : Well, that ' s he'll -- he 's, he's a
    v ery l engthy letter to the Committee
    asking , declining to testify originally
    and saying this is all I would have to S2.y
    and it ' s obviously not r e levant. I know
    nothing of Dean and Liddy ' s ...
    PRESIDEnT : Yeah.
    DEAN: . :connection ...
    PRESIDENT: Yeah , right .
    .. . other than the fact that they ...
    ./
    5
    PR::':SIDE:rI' : That's not b 2.d then .
    pre tt y good
    rl!aJbe ]-:3 'II make a
    : He might . He Uh ...
    PR:r.:SIDEIJT : (Unintelligible ) tre Hoback girl ?
    DEAN : The Hoback girl should, uh , b e broken down .
    She s!,ould COi7le out in teal's as a result of
    the fact that she 's virtu21ly lying about what
    she ' s saying. And, uh, our p e opl e I'lill, beyond a ..
    PRESI DEIJT : \'Ie II , mean, do our people know i'That to ask her?
    D3.4.N : Yes, they do. Yes, they do.
    PR"SSIDE:: 'l': Um hm!":!.
    V::': AN : Dh ...
    PRESIDENT: Why is she doing it? Do we know?
    :
    She, uh . . .
    PP, 2SIDS;;T : Disgruntled? Somebody ...
    D
    ";;' j.'}-! .
    .L Disgruntled. She ' s been fairly disgruntled all
    She ' s, she's a Democrat that worked
    over there in the Finance CO!T'.mittee . She
    professes a personal loyalty to r'la
    1
    ).ry Stans but
    tha t is about the extent of it, ( unintelligible)
    loyalty.
    PRSSIDENT : Yeah .
    DEAN :

    -
    I never did fi gure out hm; she got in there.
    Dh, so , al l toll ed I'm told that today was a bad
    day for Gray and, uh, not much of a. uh
    (Laugh)
    ... ( unintelligible) . They ' re taking a whip ...
    ""1
    I
    I
    ?O , 191 3 7: 29 70 7 : 43 PM

    D:2ftl: :
    7' . 0CJ.t on the floor to see ",hat the
    there .
    Yeah.
    We'll have that
    PR:2SIDS?: T: i'!hat ' s your f eeJ.i ng , tl:o'...lgh , John ,
    about Gray? Uh , aren ' t you,
    just as comfortable to let him go
    dOIm?
    I don't, I don't.
    PRESID:2:JT: Hhich do you \"lent? I m22.n, can,
    we c an , put SOffiS pressures on,
    uh , I, I just
    I don ' t think it ' s worth saving , sir.
    r real ly don ' t .
    PRESID::::;;T : Yeah , \'lell that ' s my point. I sn 't it
    r eal ly a case or -if they , they ,,'ant
    6
    to make t he martyr , they 're gonDa make
    him the martyr.
    Th2.t 's right.
    PRESIDENT: Do you agree or not or er ..
    DEAN : I \'lould ...
    PRESIDE:JT: You feel differently, l et me knm-l.
    DEAN: I ,-;auld, I \'!ould agree. that they're
    t ryirig to make him a martyr. I think
    that , that Pat Gray' s 'p een so darnaged
    by these hearings that he will ...
    Shouldn't be the head of the Bureau .
    ... will be difficul t for him to be the
    head of the Bureau .
    20 , 1 973 , PROM 7: 29 TO 7: 43 7
    ?i1SSI DSNT:
    :

    PRSSliJSNT:
    PR3SIDi::NT:
    That' s ri ght .
    It wi ll b e a year , two ye ars for h!n to
    rec ove r.
    That 's ri ght.
    It's like Dick Poff when he de c ided to
    withdraw even from consideration for the
    c ourt knowing that ther e had n e ver b e en
    an effective justice for years .
    That's right. The thing is too--that Gray
    though has got to make up his mind on that
    pretty soon . Don't you think so?
    I know, I thought I'd be a called ...
    In fact , I, I was thinking you ought to
    do it fairly soon.
    Excuse me, what were gonna say?
    I was, I was thinking he might call today,
    very easily, and say, uh, uh, you knoi"l,
    at least make a pro forma gesture to see
    if, uh, someone over there--you knOiv, if
    you were interested. Now... .
    Hhat's the Kleindienst viei-' of the '(rhole
    thing now? Is he stayin' a mile away?
    I'll talk to, to Dick tonight. I dori't know ..
    Urn hub.
    .. what his reading is on -(unintelligible) activity.
    Yeah .
    '--
    ' .
    22, 1973, FROM 9 :11 10:35 A.M_
    41
    PRESIDENT :
    PRESIDENT :
    :
    PRESIDENT:
    }LZ\..LDEMAN :
    PRESIDENT:
    REEl. T1i'iO BEGINS
    P?3SIDENT:
    PRESIDENT:
    END OF REEL ONE
    :
    PR=:S IDE.i.'1T :
    How about those other problems?
    The problem you got with .. Petersen is that
    h e wants to go out in privat e practice with
    Kleindienst,
    Well,I'd soon (unintelligible)
    Maybe he d i dn't;
    (Unintelligible) a blank piece of paper.
    I don't think t hat, if you're going to
    do this, you can 't do it without Kleindienst
    knoYling.
    Righ t.
    And I thi nk here you just gotta (Uni ntelligible)
    (Unintelligible) . I, I, I' ll just call
    him and say
    \-;<el l, he used to, and I assume that that
    (Unintelligible) same ones, I think.
    Does Dean have his report from Sullivan?
    Yeah.
    Uh, uh, he does .
    Not very good?
    Oh, i t's gotta --it's some of mostly the
    same old stuff. It's the Anderson and all
    r
    uh, crap, and, uh , uh--da, well there iS
    r
    there's one thing that we could build
    up that '.;Quld, that I think we could get
    built up that would be pre tty good, '''hieh
    is about the extensive us e of the FBI
    in the 1960, or 4 , Democratic Convention
    and an attempt to use them in '68. There
    is also some cover-up on Walter Jenkins,
    and some instructions by the FBI
    as to '\'ihat they were to f ind when they were
    maki ng this investigation and, uh--uh, I
    d on't think we can use that, I mean , it
    isn' t, that isn't--
    22, 1973, FROM 9:11 TO lrn:35 A.M.
    42
    NW#:36514
    PRESIDENT:
    PRESIDENT:
    P?2SIDENT:
    PiESIDEh'"T :
    F.ALDEHAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    PRESIDENT:
    PRESIDENT:
    Too nasty?
    Ah. Then there' s some Abe Fortas stuff ., -' ,
    they were involved with. That \'las intended
    ,(unintelligible) to use Fortas to implicate
    (unintelligible). As precise (unintelligible)
    he didn' t but there' s a--I think you
    could blow a hell of a bombshell out of
    the out of the '64 Democratic Convention--
    the
    Referred
    t e tapping or the watching
    all that sort of
    Uh, the stuff on the air bug, we've gotten.
    Got DeLoach's stuff on that and all it is
    is that they did the--
    Telephone (U:ointe-TIigible)
    Not the, not the only
    monitored the--they, they did the check
    on, uh, where, to what numbers were calls
    placed and they, they, uh checked
    them out. Dttdn't get--
    OtI!lT: pl..ane, our plane' (unintelligible)
    And, c nly when it was on the ground. Not
    tha'\t ,r (unintelligible)--
    Still, to what. numbers did he place calls?
    Still bad--No, not bad
    You could, you could--
    That's right--
    Docld:31443856
    22 , 1973, FROM 9 : 11 TO 10 : 35 A.M.
    54
    Fl\LDEHAN:
    PRES IDENT:
    :t-L1lL DEMAN:
    PRESI DENT:
    HALD3 !-i,.;;N :
    PRESI DENT:
    P?-ESIDENT:
    PRESIDENT:
    PRESIDENT:
    PRESIDENT:
    Oh -- Ok ay t hen , you GG.n ' t need any , any
    othe r raw data for the , for the Congressional
    s peech, and i f you do the pr-c'ss conf e rence,
    i t \vou1d be Thu rsday s o you 1"oulan ' t n eed
    t he briefing book til .
    Monday or Tuesday .
    Ye ah.
    Okay. (Unintelligi ble) As far a s the raw
    data is concerned (unintelligible) and so
    forth and s o on . I mean I, I'm, I'm just,
    I'm gonna have to sit and think it thr ough.
    Yeah.
    Come up wi t h a plan (unintelligible )
    up (unintelligible)
    I think that (unintelligible) (Noises)
    (Unintelligible) I thil1.k it
    3
    sche best thing
    to do .
    I do too .
    . I think it's better than trying to go
    before a press conference
    I do too .
    . and the othe r possibility is to not do
    any thing (unintelligible).
    That's what this, God-damn Hatergate stuff --
    Pat Gray's stuff and all this crap - - it's
    not the people's obsession. So you -vrill be
    talking about a subject that, that they ,-1ant
    to talk about instead of (unintelligible)
    Congress.
    You get -- Congress you're all right. The
    point if I want a press conference that's what'd
    be.
    w
    o
    Ln
    I
    W
    N
    W
    4
    APRIL 18, 1973, FROl1 3:05 TO 3:23 P .B.
    EHRLICHl1A.L'\) :
    P RESIDENT :
    EHRLICHliAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    EHRLICHl-1AN :
    PRESIDENT:
    EHPLICHl-1AN :
    PRESIDENT:
    EHRLICHl-1AN :
    PRESIDNET:
    EHRLICHlIlAN :
    PRESIDENT:
    EHRLICHl-ffiN:
    PRESIDENT:
    EHRLICi-H1AN :
    Yeah . It's a\.,fu 1 hard to know .
    I don't know, I mean - --
    But, that \'las a period of time, uh,
    You're talking about the Dean report,
    uh, --
    that was a period of time before you senthim to
    Camp David to write it.
    Right.
    And, I think it's reasonable to assume
    that the blasts in the newspapers, the
    Mc Cord revelations, the Gray
    Hearings, and the charges against Dean ,
    all took place a l ong in that period of
    time. You were trying to figure out what
    to do about Pat Gray ...
    Yeah.
    You \.,ere trying to find out from Dean
    what the circumstances of his contacts
    with Gray may have been .. .
    Right.
    uh, about the raw files, the raw
    FBI files.
    (unintelligible), or else we're talking
    about this case, and , uh,
    Hell,
    What do you do, uh, why I had , particularly
    \.,i th regard to the rest,
    and if , if he ' s certain he brought in
    informati on of that kind with regard to the
    obstruction of justice ...
    Good .
    9
    AP RI L 18, 1973, FROM 3 :25 TO 3:23 P .M.
    EHRLICIU1A...N:
    PRES IDENT:
    EHRLI CHMAN :
    PRESIDENT:
    EHRLICHMAl.'l :
    PRESIDENT:
    EHRLICHHAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    EHRLICHMAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    EHRLICHI1AN:
    PRESIDENT:
    EHRLICI-H-1Al'I :
    I tell you the, again , the , uh,
    authorization for that , I ' ve been going
    through myoId fi les up there.
    Yeah.
    The way that project was finally
    r epresented to me was that it was a
    covert look at some files , which could
    b e read to be that they walked in \,hen
    the nurse wasn't looki ng and they
    flipped through the file. Uh,--
    This the Ellsburg c as e?
    Yes. It wasn ' t until much later
    we learned th at they had actually
    conducted a burg l ary.
    What about the other thing, the wire,
    the, wiretapping?
    The wiretapping, in most cases , uh, was
    conducted unde r the statute by ...
    The Bureau.
    leave of the Attorney General by the
    Bureau.
    What about the, but we did some
    private wiretapping?
    He-:Ll, except it never came off, you
    see. It was never conducted , they
    could never do it. had the idea
    Dean had told me he thought it was done .
    He may, he may h ave , but, uh, the only,
    the only private one that I knOlv of that
    was not actually conduct.ed by t.c'1e Bureau
    under proper sanction was one that
    was gonna be attempted , in
    Ge orgetown ,
    W
    t-'
    I
    t-'
    o
    APRI L 19 , 1973 9:31 A.M. T0 10:12 A. M. 4
    EHRLICHHAN :
    PRESIDENT:
    HALDEHAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    HALDEHAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    Wha t ...
    And Uc'1, I , I just , nn not s peaking just from
    the standpoint of , uh, I mean 1 , it jus t
    i rri tates me when people like Garreent and
    others come in here and say , the hell wi th the
    the Presidency is and s o
    fo rth . They can ' t , you can ' t s e parate the
    Presidency from (uninte lligible) the people ,
    t he loyal people and I wil l not do it, God
    it . Remenmer, I often told you that
    Ei senhower s a id (uni ntelligible) and bas ically
    you fo lks didn't do a God damn thing. It
    h appens , uh, at l eas t (uninte lligible) a
    small \'lay (uni ntelligible) didn ' t mean to do
    anythi ng bad . You knOl'i Hhat I mean. Hell
    now , the thing I am concerned about, though,
    looking at it coldly f r om a PR standpoint,
    from your standpoint , I think He've got to
    fi gure that I' ve just , let ' s just not l et the
    day c ome , that uh, when uh , the Grand Jury as
    a result uh, the Grand Jury sends us and nmv'vill
    give us twelve hours noti ce, l et 's s uppose we
    get h lelve hours noti ce (uninte lligible).
    Is Hagruder before the Grand Jury today?
    We don't knmv, t he 1?ost says so. h'ell , "le
    apparently can't find out if the y can't
    (Unint elligibleJ beore the Grand Jury was
    because (unintelligi b le). Well, I can get hold
    of Petersen. I think the least I could do is
    to get him in and layout this whole business .
    I just wonder if that would be good before we
    meet 'vi th our lawyers. Yes. And if we have
    no lavlye-..-s (uni ntell igible)
    Yeah, maybe I'Ll try. (Unintelligible) I'm gonna
    l eve l about the. national security stuff what
    I'm going to say is you know the Burea u. Any,vay,
    you know that Edgar had very , very close ties
    with, '''ith Marx pe.ople, you knmv they didn't want
    to i nvestigate t he Ellsberg thing. Unde r the
    circumstances we h ad no choice but to go ahead
    APRTL 19, 1973 9:31 A.M. TO 10:12 A.M. 5
    PRESIDENT
    (CONT . )
    I: HRLICIH-11\N :
    and do it in the White Douse . We did
    our best , and finally Hoover did take
    over t he case by Mitchell's direct orders.
    You will find in the file an, an admonit ion to
    Hoover from here and I don 't know if it was
    you p8rsonally, or me, or who, Krogh maybe,
    that this was to be handled as a principal
    case. He had laid back for months and
    months and months and refused to l et his
    agents get i nto it.
    PRESIDENT : That's right, so we couldn't use t he agents ,
    we couldn't use the
    EHRLICm,:'Zl.N: Well, he was , he \I'as very tender about hm'1
    agents would be used in t h is case.
    PRESIDENT: Because of the, because of the Harx (unin-
    . telligible) .
    And so certain rather routine investigatory
    efforts were conducted [rom here.
    PRESIDENT: That's right, because it involved national
    security ...
    EHRLICHVlAN: This one, this one \'1as apparently in excess.
    PRESIDENT: Yes.
    EHRLICHHAN: But in the context of hm'1 the Bureau works
    PRESIDENT: The Bureau ..
    EHRLICHHAN: .. they might have done the same damn thing .
    PRESIDENT: Yeah. (Unintelligible) the situation is there.
    The thing is that we, I think \'1e' re getting to
    the point where we (unintelligible). I don't
    what you talked about at the breakfast and so
    forth (unintelligible) but at least we can think
    about it.
    EHRLICH::-IAN: Sure and uh, timing uh , is out of our hands
    in a way, but uh, I, I woul d hope that we can
    l et these fellmvs have a run at this today.
    19,
    ;
    P RES I DE?;!' :
    ;
    EHFQ,I CHt-lriN:
    Hl\LDEtiz\N:
    EHRLICHl-LZiN :
    PRESID:::NT:
    EHRLICHMAN:
    P P-BSIDEl'J"""T :
    EHRLICE!1]I...N :
    PRESIDENT:
    EHRLICHMAN:
    :
    EHRLICE!lAN :
    PRESID:::';T:
    9 : 3 1 A . N " TO .10 : 1 2 1\. 1-1 21
    You are in a rotten fr ruJe of mind this, uh
    you arc (unintelligibl e )
    So a r e you .
    : , \olell,
    I' m not.
    I have ,
    Uh ...
    (Unintelligible)
    Well , that and ...
    no, as a matter of fac t
    No , not ye t we're ready for , we're ready to
    figure it out ( unintelligible) .
    I, I' m very c onfident , I' m very confident,
    that the right thing is goi ng to turn out
    and u.ll.
    A fe':." couple days ago I, you were (unin-
    telli gible) well, remember \,hen you had that
    call?
    Yeah.
    From Gray, you s aid . "Christ, he just sunk ne."
    "I'll never be a, I'm finished as a lawyer,
    If 11 never do my ... "
    (Unintelligible) nothing like a good Christian
    Science streak, and I sure did have that.
    No, the fact is that I'm, I'm very confident
    that the right thing is gonna unfold here,
    but that I, I am concerned about your general
    mental approach to this, frankly.
    It (unintelligible) you.
    Yeah.

    --
    I-'
    ..
    o
    w
    I
    I-'
    w
    o
    PP-::;SIDENT:
    :
    EE?.LICE: :"::,N :
    PK:SIDEl-:T :
    ER?..LICHIIAl-J :

    :
    or ], OF A
    1-1EETIKG BETI-JEEl l 'rEB PRESIDJ:NT
    A!\D JOEH APRIL 19,
    1973 , AT 1:03 P.M. , TO 1:30 P.M.
    /-000
    Hr. President.
    John, John, how are you?
    Fine, sir.
    The, (pause) did you see that piece?
    Yes, I did.
    I told Ron that obviously the secretary ,
    I've run down the background.
    Yes, good.

    (Unintelligible) I guess Dean has really been
    shot across the bOI-' there (unintelligible)
    he's the scapegoat.
    Yeah .
    Yeah.
    Have they made a deal with him of any kind?
    No, sir, no, sir , not yet.
    one through.
    So.
    All right. (Unintel ligible) .
    Discuss that
    But you know on the other hand what the -- I
    just don't know what the hell Dean c an talk
    about, he knows a hell of a lot, but uh, .
    We ll, we're going over that now.
    I see .
    Taking time to kind of spin it all out, but
    it ' s pretty to , uhh .
    V'?ah.
    but it ' s pretty h il rd to see how.
    2 " .
    APPTL 19, 1973 , 1:03 P.M., TO 1:30 P . M.
    ?RSSIDENT:
    PF::::SIDEl'l'T :
    P?3SIDENT :
    EE:;'LICFIN.l';N :
    PrGSIDENT:
    E:::<.LICHH .. ;'\N :
    P:;:CSIDENT :
    E::?'::::':::CHl-iAN :
    ??3SIDENT :
    I understand he's still in the Whi te House
    staff, where there 's a problem as to
    Hhether
    Yeah .
    We're going to fight that (unintelligible).
    Yeah, well, I'm sure if he were not , he
    not have been as restraineQ as that.
    Yeah, I figure it's best to keep hin here .
    Yeah .
    I had Ron call him and check and say that ,
    we're going to say that there's not going
    to be any statement, we're trying tc get
    the truth and my question (unintelligible)
    \"hether or not (unintelligible) the laHyers
    (unintelligible) .
    Well, they're going to go right over there,
    this afternoon .
    They are, fine, und
    (Unintelligible) .
    That's what I went through (unintelligible)
    I told him about Hunt and the S.C. thing,
    the investigation, and, I mean, our
    gation, why He had to do it , and how we're
    going to do the other thing and so =orth and
    so on (unintelligible) the Department of
    Justice (unintelligible). I said, "Hhat
    else did Hunt do?" (unintelligible} I said,
    I think he did t I think he vias working in
    other fields r egarding leaks to this matter.
    Right.
    And I said , unless , but I don't want anything
    involving eavesdropping , which was carried on
    is that correct?
    3
    APRIL 19, 1973 , FROM 1 :03 P.M., TO 1:30 P . M.
    EERLI CE:'lP":', :
    :
    :
    Pru:;SIDENT :
    EHRLICHHAl , :
    PRSSIDENT :
    :
    EHRLI CHHi\X:
    P P-ESIDENT :
    EHRLICHJ.1AN :
    PP-ESIDENT:
    EHRLICHIWJ :
    Ye s , as f ar as I know.
    Yes , fine , but Dean, was Dean in charge cf
    this?
    No, no.
    Thi s was ours, okay. But Dean must know
    about it, is that right?
    I think he must.
    Ah, he \-;,a s c oncerned about the Grand Jury ,
    he was very concerned.
    Good.
    I s a id (uni ntelligible). He said it ' s j us t
    terrible . He didn' t know what to
    Our , our attorneys think that may be fatally
    defective .
    Fatally defective .
    May be an illegal Grand Jury.
    Well, don 't you think you'll get another
    Grand Jury?
    I suppose they c ould, but, it may just it
    just may screw up thi s who le proc ess.
    Would you do that? This Grand Jury is, uh ,
    for anybody.
    The prosecutors have a tough d e cision whether
    to go fOD{ard wi th these cases, these new cnses
    with this Grand Jury or go right out and reprocess
    everybody throu gh another one .
    (Pause )
    19, 1973, FROM 1 : 03 P.M., TO 1:30 P . M.
    PRESIDENT:
    EH?-LI CHHAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    :
    I Bob Heldem2n, I said, " I,OO'(, suppose
    I use him as an e;.:a..<,.ple , such as to pcstpc;;e
    (unintelligible), would it effect (uni n-
    telligible) much stress on that?" (linin-
    telligible) I put it to hi2, I seid, "Dean
    inferred to me that if and
    Ehrlichman left , uhh, that , uhh , that
    \'muld be you, II meaning if Petersen cculd
    grant irmnuni ty. He said that's not true .
    He said i t vmuld have much effect 0;:' the
    (unintelligible) of the corroboretien .
    I suppose Dean's theory , I suppose t hat i s
    basically he c arried out the orders of others .
    I said, IIDoes that put -- what effect does
    that h a ve?" He says only in litigation, no-,." ,
    you can't, en agent committi ng a cri",e , so,
    you can't do that, so Deen rebutted the
    situaticn, what he's going to get , he ' s
    to get t otal irnmuni ty, or whether he's (pause)
    and I s uppose , the way I leak at it, all we've
    got to consider i s if we really got this t hing
    (unintelligible) .
    . with the facts coming out and whether
    giving h im total immunity is going to l:lake
    hiD act better. Your view is to heve him
    hold it over us for the rest of our lives
    -- is that your point ? That would be my
    theory. These fellows dcn't seem to think
    Dean c an get at this point, but
    they 're going to go down and talk to
    Gl anzer and see what's going on.
    Good, the second point with rega r d to the
    cases, uhf the case, a re you (unintelligible)
    much of a c ase , t he deep six thing and they
    said that (unintelligible ). Bob, I said, it
    looks to me if you get the cont ents to Gray,
    Gray could do that on that much , and he said
    (unint e lligible ) Ehrlichman and Dean .
    That's arguable , I was the re.
    All right , fine . That ' s a ll. But , I said
    did either of those things occur, and I saic
    I didn 't raise the point did it all occur
    before (unintelligible) .
    W
    lJl
    I.D
    I
    I.D

    ",-
    " f) ,
    .....
    50
    was ...
    ... in n rositicn to fully about
    and
    conc2x:n2d ti hol1t eli!"',:! threats to the
    R0use , hut (uni.ntelligib12) blackmail
    we Now clemency-- O'Rrien
    t ola ?i t tr.an \':'2.!S ;t::;}:ea Hunt to
    d eal said
    ligibli:!, Bitt.!71c'.I1, he did. Co]_son said it
    was tha t Hunt be given
    H!:? , 2.']reerL Col .scn told Bitt0:ln
    he :-:121;.8 .. ttrfl2!'.t I but a fri,::!!!d,
    he 2.3sist., the
    st C!.t:2:"":!e''1t. ... :-C! s ';lit.h this. n
    And he " There was a
    a d2lay in givi!"!<; notio:;e t o
    [
    the r DI (cmir:telligible). II Dean says t-'t<.!t.
    Gray to office , told
    c;bout .. U And th:.t' s
    end of thElt phon2 c a ll 26tl1.
    Boy.
    Cn 27th, he s a ys h e
    a long with O'Brien. O'Bri en 's
    l-Ie sa:ls
    could c ut th,;! uhole thing off if Ii?
    would just step fOD1ard, sign off OD the
    Watergate. Jeb told o'Brien Parkinson
    he believes that the \-7ho1e Liddy thing ,'las
    put by the HO'.lse before it Has
    presented to them. Dean cooked this up pro-
    bably at Halde:nan' 5 i n strl!ctions, the idea
    of the operation.
    DCem is r2porting Hha
    i
    : .J eb says
    He's n::por.ting \ .. hCit O'Rd en tells r.im that
    J Rb fells O'Rri e D: bOUS!lt it.
    It tnat tne centnr
    .. 0 . 'ci thC'D the:ce \'laS a hiatus.
    in T!itc:h"2 l1's office . Li(1c1y
    66
    APRIL 26 , 1973 , FROM 3:59 P.M. TO 9 :03 P.M.

    HALDEHAN :
    PRESIDENT:
    PJI.LDEr1AN :
    PRESIDENT:
    PRESIDENT:
    Huh?
    A couple days went along when I
    didn't talk with vo u. (Unintelligible).
    'rhat t s ,,hat Hi tch2ll ;,,'as saying, and -
    EhrlidL'113.n \'las saying.
    Yeah, that's right.
    (Pause)
    So, uh, (unintelligible).
    Yeah. Haybe you c an get John over
    and t alk a little before you go home.
    Check to see if there 's anyone who wants
    to (unintelligible).
    Oh, I want you to know, I h aven't h ad
    any r e ;)ort yet fro;n Kleindienst. I'm
    keeping in touch with him. He said
    he'd - (unintellig ible) to see if (unintel-
    ligible ) what the re are seve ral others
    and I asked them what , what they a r e
    going to do ':1i th that r;-,emorandum that
    was sent up there. I let John .
    (telephone conversation begins)
    --Yeah, yeah, I ' d like to point this out
    right now. -- Oh yeah. -- No, no.
    Yeah , I see. -- Yeah. -- Right.
    Yeah, uh, he, Bob told me that. He's
    just been here a few minutes, and he told
    ,
    tn-::!, and I think that-'s very important.
    on the Pat Gray story, \'lhat' s your
    advice as an officer? -- Yeah. -- Yeah.
    Yeah , yeah, yeah, yeah. -- Right.
    67
    APRIL 26, 1973, 3:59 P.M. TO 9:03 P.M.
    I
    Con.t:inued:

    ?

    I
    What? Maybe, uh, maybe you should.
    (Unintelligible) April 15th, uh --
    Yeah.--Right.--Right, I said right--Yeah.--Yeah.--
    Yep.--Ah.--Sure, \lho, uh--Yeah, I just think you're,
    uh, maybe your attorney should knovl that.
    What do you think? I don ' t know.
    Yeah. -- Right. That ' s right.
    Right. -- That's right. -- Yeah.
    do,,' t you drop -- maybe you can
    come over, we can talk it over here. It
    would be a great help. Fine, fine. I
    ... The story regarding Hr. Gray's safe
    has broken.

    has it?
    The N'evl York Times (unintelligible).
    (Unintelligible ) Sure as hell is, youtve
    just gotta (uni ntcll{gible).
    First the He'", York Times called my ,la,,'ryer,
    then he said he had a report, a first-hand
    report from a high administration official,
    that that official and Haldeman had engineered
    the cover-up of l1y la,'ryer --
    now 1vhether it's rea lly a first-hand report
    you heard it \-7i th your ovm ears. Hy lavTyer
    said y es . He said a high present official
    or former official (unintelligible).
    \'lho, utchel l and Haldeman?
    The lawyer said, uh, Hitchell. The
    reporter says that Mitchell said in his
    preseDce and the presence of other
    off the record, that he and lialdeman engineered
    68
    26, 1973 , FRO:--l 3: 59 P. [.1. 70 9 : 03 P .N.
    ,
    Contir:ued:
    :
    PRLSIDE1JT:
    the Watergate cover- up. Yes, the
    l a";yer is (unint.elligible). But I
    don ' t believe, I t hink that's pure
    fishing on the part of Hi rsch. (Unin-
    t e lligi.ble ) .
    !-ii tchell, Hi tche l l ' s drinking.
    That's the only thing I told the
    l.::nv-ye r. Mitchell Has drunk l ast
    night or something on the Hay back on
    the pl Qne from Florida (unintelligible).
    Mitchell is certainly a professional
    Grand Jury testifier. I' d
    hira.
    Yeah (unintelligible).
    I think also Mitchell might have said
    it in a j oke . You know, he said
    that they're planning on it, and the n
    s ay , "Yes, as a mat-t e r of fact , you
    sma rt-ass bastard, Haldeman a nd I sat
    down and engineered the whole fucking
    cover-up. NOH what more do you
    7he cover-up or the, or the, uh, the
    or the (unintelligible) or the bugging?
    7hat's neither here nor there; I don't
    t.1,.ink I'd talk to Ni tchell.
    John is referring to, in vie,,, of
    this disclosure, he feel s that he may
    have to take leave because o f the (unin-
    telligible) involvement. That I s ,,,hat he
    was told on the phone, I told him you
    talked to John. Well, uh ...
    \':el1, when he "deep-sixed" the stuff
    ,... ... 'lIo!l-a'" =592 11.==
    APRIL 26 , 1973, FROM 3:59 P.M. TO 9:03 P.M.
    P:s.ESIDENT: Yeah (uni ntelligible) but that they,
    the, the story is that the, that
    Ehrlichman and Dean ..
    (Telephone rings)
    Yeah, yeah. About the, uh, report
    from the Times. -- Oh, yeah, go ahead,
    yeah. -- Yeah. -- I see, fine, good,
    good. 1'11 call you tombrrow. -- The
    other thing Dick, you know, there's
    the deletion. I think I should talk to
    you about -- this i nvolved Pat Gray --
    involving the, the, the, the -- Dean
    giving them the contents, some of the
    contents from Hunt's safe. And , uh, the
    New York Times (unintelligible) uh, and ,
    and that Gray did, and that Gray destroyed
    it, you knm..;. Uh, don't you feel that
    under the that uh, Gray,
    uh, I don't knew, I think I'm over-reacting,
    but uh, especially under these
    stances, don't you think he ought to resign?
    H::t1at do you think? HO'''', hc,'; do \,e handle
    this? Do you want to think about i t?
    can we do? Ca ll ne back? -- Well, the
    point is that -- Yeah, well, we're not
    going to have you do it tonight, but I
    guess, I think I right, .
    but I mean the story, uh -- Wnat's Henry
    think, uh, \";02 should do about it?
    Yeah. -- Right . -- All right. -- Nell,
    c an I ask you and, uh, you can think a
    little about it? -- Uh, we'll, uh, know,
    uh, the uh, let ne say though, and I know
    this is, uh: an a\'7 fui thing, but uh,
    believe ne, I want the whole damn thing
    out, don't you? Tell it as it is.
    \'lell, sure, sure, it's going to come out
    70
    APRIL 26, 1973, 3:59 P.M. TO 9 : 03 P.M.
    PRESIDENT,
    Continued:
    PRESIDENT:
    PRESIDENT:
    in the paper . But Dick, Dick, for
    crying out loud, God it, the se
    d2mn things happen. Uh, I have pre-
    ference, we've got to get them out .
    You kno':l. That ' s Icy :cesponsibili-ty,
    my responsibility, 2nd by golly rim
    going to meet it. -- Yeah. -- All
    right. -- Hell. Fine . -- Bye .
    He says "h'ell, we'll think 2bout it."
    (Pause)
    Petersen, uh, ple2se, Assist2nt Attorney
    General ... 1111 tell Ron (unintelligible)
    John's t r ying to (uI1intelligible) John
    shouldn't ask for a week. Look, he knew,
    he knei.v, he kne\'7. _ (Unintelligible). Look,
    the point is, he knew this was part of
    (unintelligible). Right?
    (Unintelligible). For Christ sake, he,
    he, uh, the of
    the stuff to the FEI. No ... , if you've
    got 2n FBI Director th2t
    1
    s out of his
    th2t isn't Ehrlichman's fault.
    But he said that, because of the innuendo
    of the arrest, he \'lanted to take a leave
    t:..."'l til it \'las cleared up.
    Ko, no, no.
    Then if that happens, then, uh, Bob
    r
    basically, uh, Dean would to, you
    \,ould have to, wouldn't you? Dean ,,,auld -
    have to as \';ell.
    Dean should have been out long ago, if
    you can follow it up. Maybe it, maybe
    us
    71
    n PRI L 26, J.973, FROM 3:59 P.M. TO 9 : 03 P . M.
    PEESIDENT:

    (phone rings)
    He llo -- Oh , I j ust wanted to , uh, I
    wanted to, un, talk to Dick
    Kl e indeinst. He said he'd with
    you, uh, uh. I just wan ted to get
    your r e action to ho',,, we , uh I hO'd ,;e I
    uh, h mv we handled the Gray situation
    up at, uh (unintelligible). Do you
    want to about it overnig ht or should
    you react right away or what? Good.
    -- Yea h. -- But how long can he really
    stay on? -- Uh -- But he s hould.
    Let me ask you this. Rather than my
    doi ng i t, uhl I suggest tha t you ask
    I:5ick. Uhl you, \Vonid you mind discussing
    it Hith Kleindienst
    l
    uh , . I, I think, uh,
    let's, let's not put it in a, put it
    in a context \'!here I, uh I uh I I love hirn
    tOOl I love all of you, but you know what
    I mean . If I want him, I want him to be
    this way so that he does n't look like an
    ass. And I said, uh, wouldn't you
    l
    if
    you were in such a position , prepare
    to have , uh, Dick pe!:"haps -- needless
    casualties (unintell igible). Why the
    hell did we start the damn thing? I'll
    be damned if I know.
    But I don't knmj Hhat to do. That is
    another part of the, uh . in any
    event, then, ,.;ould you, uh, Hould you
    just, uh, would you, ,,,ould you mind,
    Hould you talk to Kleindienst and say
    . "Look, uh, would yorrtalk to Pat and iell
    Pat, uh"-- Just a second here, just a
    second, somebody's on another line, let
    met get to another phone, hold on.
    (Unintelligibl e ). Does Petersen know
    why Gray destroyed the (unintelligible)?
    In other words , what Ziegle r says ought
    to be guided at l eas t in part by ,.;hat
    " .
    72
    APRIL 26, 1973. FROM 3:59 P.M. TO 9:b3 P . M.
    ttl\. !...c...N ,
    Con-tinued:

    explanat ion Gray is going to give.
    Petersen's (unintelligible).
    Yeah. (Unintelligible). All right ,
    I, I'm ready to talk now. But the
    o ne question I was going to ask you
    about is that , what, what i n the
    \-;orld is Gray going ' to say as to \-!hy
    he destroyed it? Cause he obviously
    figures, well he counted on . Uh--
    Yeah . -- Right . -- Did he h nve you
    put sone in Ehrlichnan and
    Dean? -- That's good, well he isn 't,
    uh, he can't say that Ehrlichman and
    Dean told him to destroy? Did he?
    Did he, by the way, see that story;
    uh, really wouldn't stand-up f or him,
    I nean apart from needing help , for
    for him? Hhv doS!s, whv does, for
    exa mple Ehrlichman and- Dean call the
    Director o f t he FBI over and say ,
    here's some d6ouments, destroy
    then." \'Jhy the hell didn ' t ,they
    destroy 'em t hemselves ? -- I see.
    I see. -- Yeah . -- Yeah. -- Urn hrnm.
    -- Yeah, and that h e 's going, uh, and
    that is what b a sically he 's going to
    say, or has he s a id it? -- Yeah.
    Yeah, that, that Dean told, he said
    that these \'lere document s that \vere
    ,.;-holly unrela_ted to t. he, the, to the
    \'latergate, and that they sould be destroyed.
    But that, that -- you know I, I, I think
    he, if he l eaves , - you knOiv what I mean,
    and so forth and so on, for him to, for
    him to say that a, that , that, that record
    is, the story, in my vie"" sinply doesn't,
    doesn't ring too damn much true . You
    knO'.v ""ha t I mean novl ? Hhy dian' t, v:hy
    in the world did the, did Dean and/or
    Ehrlichman , uh, call the Director o f
    26, 1973 ,
    Fi<..2SI D2!'1
    r
    .r ,

    .,,'s
    3 :59 P .M. TO 9:03 P.M.
    the FBI, hand hirn docu.'nents, and
    t hen say "Take them because they're
    not rel ated to
    and' destroy them." You see my pOint-,:'
    that's a screwball, that' s a
    screvrball -- I don't think he ' s
    there on another matter but that 's a
    purpose. -- did Dean
    tell you? -- Yeah . -- Dean says that
    Ehrlicl:man told Dean to destroy thern .
    -- Uh, that's the so called "deep-six"
    then? -- Right , right. -- Right.
    -- Hell, I don't knm'l , I' rn not going
    to try to tell anybody to change the
    story and so forth, that is because
    73
    I want, I understand we want the truth, _
    but I, I, I just can't uh, believe, I just
    can't believe that, uh, any-bocy, I can't
    really believe that anybody's gonna
    believe that the Director of the FBI
    was docusents and told to
    destroy 'em. Ha ! You wanna see?
    Ny God yes. And that he did it I mean
    destroyed them. Bet J. Edgar Hoover's
    got every, uh, every doodle that anybody
    ever had around, right there in his files.
    Right. -- When, uh, when will, uh, will
    Gray, uh, make, make this go back to our
    people here? -- Well, uh, well I'll
    tell you what. -- Yeah . -- I'll tell
    you "hat you do, uh, because basica lly
    tL.'1, uh, how far, hO'.v far I want to get
    into this damn thing, I don't knO\v.
    But I mean, I, I heard this, this insane
    story that, that the event -- that hew this
    -- l\ hat, what function Ziegler set, fu.l1. ction
    Ziegler set (unintelligible) -- I just,
    yeah, but that's our problem, he said
    well, we can't say that we just, I mean
    we had some, you know, we, in other words
    74
    APHIL 26, 1 973 , FROM 3:59 P.M. TO 9:03 P.M.
    PRESIDEI-J'l' ,
    : the, our investigation here i s the
    one that \ '/e ' ve b e en undertaking, uh,
    tl:.e, UD, 21st of Harch, uhf "le had
    infornation about this , but He haven't
    h ad the damel. thiEg corroborated. You
    knovl Hhat. I mean? Yeah , I've never had,
    I've, Dean , I mean , l et me put it this
    vlay, Pat Gray n e ver told me this. Uh,
    he, uh, he' s told you this. RemelTber,
    he's told you -- He first told you, as
    1: reme::-tber, Henry, that nobody ever got
    any documents, and the n later on he said,
    "Yeah, I got some but I d estroyed ., em."
    Right? So uh , h e was put in a tough
    position, there. -- Although, althou'gh
    On the o ther hand that' s , .uh , something
    you den't live ,; i.th, and I gues that's
    your point. You "'!-e re investigating him,
    he may have forgotten b ut, uh -- I see.
    -- It \las a casual conversation. -- Right.
    -- -- Yeah. -- And then the next
    day he said he r efreshed, he refreshed his
    recolle ction and s aid , "Yes , I did get
    the dccUlI.ents, and I ,,as told to destroy
    n Tha t's \.;'hat Pat Gray no\'! says, is
    that correct? -- Yeah. -- I don't
    belive that, uh, (unintel ligible ). You
    see, the point is \;hen you say that, uh,
    that, that Dean thinks that he fixed it and
    so forth, you haven't had Ehrlichman (unin-
    telligible) you haven't had that corroborated
    yet, because basically, uh, Ehrlichman v7as
    in the .room "'hen this happened and Ehrlichman
    "'hen it happened and Ehrlichman of course
    uh, he uh, he uh, uh, and, ' I 'm
    gonna have to talk to him about this. I
    have to. But the point that I, the point
    that I make is this: whether arnot, uh,
    --
    7':;
    APRIL 26, 1973, FROM 3:59 P . M. TO 9:03 P.M.
    PRESIDENT ,
    Continu<3d: whether, ,,,hether uhf uh, d-did DeiJ.n
    corroborate Gray's story? rrhat I S
    what one thing I'd like to know.
    Did Dean say that in the presence of
    Ehrlichmcm, that, that h e or Ehrlithman,
    or both tolJ Gray "These are poliJcically
    sensitive, unrelated to We.tergate , and
    they should be destroyed." Did Dean
    say that? -- That's the whole point,
    you see, I think, I don't, uh, now, let
    me s a'J , let me say, let me, let rree say
    this, on this, for your information, I've
    questioned Dean about this, uh, uh, he uh,
    uh -- I see -- \';'na'c? -- Yeah, yeah, no,
    after, uh, after we had your , our talk,
    you know, I said, I said that, uh, he just
    SElid I, ,,,e handed the doc- I he gave the
    Gocusents to Gray. That's, uh, you know
    ,,hat I mean, and uh, that was that. Iie
    didn't say, but he never said we told
    him to destroy them. You see my point?
    But hell Dean was, uh, well let, let me
    put it this vay. Assuming he had, \.;hy
    the hell is he going to implicate himself
    in such a thing as that? He can let Gray
    take the rap for it. -- Yeah. -- Yeah.
    -- Yeah, ahd he didn't. Right, right.
    -- That's right. Right. Right,
    right, right, right, right. -- Right.
    -- Right . -- Yeah. -- I see. -- I see,
    but that was not done, -- That's right.
    -- Incidentally, may I ask, '''ithout
    reviewing the contehts, diel, uh , did you
    get to the bottom of the Sheppard
    Okay. -- Fine. Yeah. -- Okay_
    Oh yeah. -- Yeah. - - Right. -- Exactly.
    --Oh , hey, the reason "Thy they thought
    that I Has putting up the transcripts, huh.
    -- Ha ha ha ha ha ha -- Yeah. -- Well,
    ''''"
    " .
    '"
    APP-IL 26 , 1973,
    ,
    Conti .. ue d:
    76
    FROM 3: 59 P . M. TO 9:03 P. M.
    l e t me say t h i s , uh, on e o f t he , one
    o f the my record is
    clear o n i s I, you coul d swear on,
    on a stack of Bi.bles that I, in f act
    I've prob a b l y bent over more b a ck'Y' ard
    more than Eas t people would h ave that did
    this. Fel l on the Gra nd Jury , I do not
    want to I know. -- Ri ght, right.
    and uh -- by direction. -- All right.
    -- On the, uh, on the Gray thing, uh,
    it to me that, uh, that Gra y, you
    should have yo u r with Gray
    irrJTiedi a t e1y . 'I'he thre e of you. Don
    J
    t
    h avehin make a statement; however , until
    uh, until uh , he uh, .1 don't knmv \.;hether,
    whe the r he even make o ne t onight .
    tJi1, uh, you know "'ha 1.:. I mean? I'm not
    sure I could r e a.ct t h at soon. But I knoiY'
    that, uh, he 's got convictions a nd rr.aybe
    we shouldn't act like , uh ... l think that
    under circumsta nces that the destruction
    done or, e ven though it was done with no
    legal int e nt, uh, t his all, this uh, stupidity
    of the, it's unbeli e vable (unintelligibl e).
    He'll have to resi gn, which would be
    best ... Wno's second man, uh (unintelligible)
    over there? Felt (unintelligible) -- Yeah.
    -- That's right. -- I know. -- Yeah, I
    know. -- I know. -- I knml. --:- No that I s
    (u.."!.intelligible). No, no, vle, we've got to
    be cleane d out, got to be cleaned out. !1y
    point is, my point is, this is not the
    tine. This is not the time. I am not
    ready to name Gray's succeSSGr. I'm still
    searching, you know, and so therefore,
    but, but, but the point is if Gray leaves
    -- Huh , \-ihat? Yeah . -- But the point that
    I to get across here, that they haven't
    been nair.i:1g a nybody to succeed Gray, I've
    got to do i t on the basis of, uh, you know,
    an Acting Director a t this point and, uh,
    and I do thi nk we 're going to have to
    D2.ke this to the point, to the point that,
    un ... 1'11 ha ve to b e leaving nOl-l, do you
    have a !:.e 2 tix,g at , uh, 6: 10, uh, you and
    om ',=.,."."
    [ .
    IU'"

    77
    1,'?f:II .. 26, 1973, 3:59 P . l-!. TO 9:03 P.I'I.
    Pr..:CSIDS[!::L ,
    Continued: Dick, uh (unintelligible) are going
    to with Grav (unintelligible) over
    t.here? Or should Gray -- Oh , I see .
    -- Yeah. - - Yeah, he's gotta think about
    it and uh , and he shouldn' t make a, I
    don't think that Gray should pop off
    wi th 2. statement t onight arl the thing.
    Uh, does that , doesn't that rr.ake sense?
    -- Yeah , after all , b ecause basically
    he's gonna have to say what the situation
    is. Now what is your suggestion 2.S to
    ,,'hat, uh, uh , an:lbody else, I mean (unin-
    t el ligible) the matter . I
    mean after a ll , this is one of the things
    you are i nves tigating this, this, this
    Hhole damn "deep- s ix" thing. Renernber,
    I told you to locate the list, find out,
    you haven 't, you haven't even , uh, you,
    .'ell, 2. 5 a matter, you, yeu haven't even
    h2.d Dean's statement under oath yet, have
    you? And you hav:en ' thad Ehrlichman under
    oath? So (unintelligible) for a full
    IT'.oon . Yeah . -- He ll, uh , one, one,
    one thing else, uh, that the, uh, ,,,hat
    abo1.:t your, what a bout your, your. your
    meeting with Dean? Uh, isn't it about
    time you get that done? Let's just get
    this thing rolling, or is that something
    (unintelligible)? When are you going to
    meet him? -- His attorney. -- Yeah --
    Right. -- Yeah. - - See, - the problem
    I have is this, as you see, but the
    r
    but
    the, but the problem I have is that, uh,
    they say, "Y7el l Vihat are you going to
    do about Ehrlichna n?" QU2s tion is,
    what are you going to do about Dean ?"
    You see what I mean? -- You see. -- So
    therefore , the point is, the, the point
    is that , ah -- Yeah , yeah, I knm'T , I know,
    oh, no, no , no, no , no, Fh at I am r eferring
    t o thO'...lgh is the -CGrrns of, of uh , of when
    you were going to get . Now I understand
    7 8
    APRIL 26, 1973, FROM 3:59 P . M. TO 9:03 P . M.
    ,
    Con-tinued: all in our conversation that, uh,
    that the attorneys for Haldeman
    Ehrlicl:.s3.n are going to meet ,'7ith the
    U. S. Attorneys and arrange for , ub,
    first the informal interview, which you
    suggested was t he proper procedure. That's
    g oing to be done very soon, I understand.
    I suppose (unintelligible ). Then , uh , so
    we get that out of the way. Uh , and then,
    o f course , they will. be able to go over to
    Grand Jury after they 've had their meet ing.
    Dh, b"\.:t getting back to 'che Dean thing,
    uh, it came to me that, uh, uh , you've
    got to ge-c Dean in there to them, lli'1. , you
    knm-l "hat I mean? I r:lean you've got-tc:.,
    you' ve gotta decide the Dean thing,
    Let me just say one thing , that on tha-t /
    the decision is yours . He'll get, he
    to you, but, but don't
    about what he told, I mean , uh, ,.That he
    holds, uh, trur::p card or- blae;::: and
    so forth. There's not going to be any
    h ere , and uh, don't you agree?
    -- that? -- Right. --
    -- Hagruder ' sand Cean' s s -tories
    variable (unintelligible)? -- Um
    -- Yeah. -- Yeah, you ,..;ant Dean to plead.
    -- Yeah. -- Then you got a case.
    That' s right. -- Yeah. I know you
    are . You're still sure o f both Ehrlicrunan
    a nd Hal d eman , but you've gotta get, but
    the part that, I, I understand and L'_m
    not trying to take you out around the
    cas e, t he only thing I think the plea is,
    uh. How I can still sit h e r e \vi th, uh, I
    rr:ean, I mean I'm restless \vith Ehrlichman
    and Haldeman's problem, naturally, if
    \ ,;e, if you, but then I also have to urestle
    \'lith Dean's problen, because I'm a\V'are
    o f information tha t you are. I mean, I
    a g ree ar.d our conversation, but I'm
    aware o f those conversations see, and, I
    79
    APRIL 26, 1973, FROM 3:59 P . M. TO 9:03 P.M.
    prtESIDENT ;

    .. ..... .... ..)'
    cannot move unt il, uh, without practically
    j e op?rdizing your , uh, prosecution. Can
    I? No , but I guess they didn't tell
    me. I mean the point is , uh , i f you ' re
    -- 1'1.11 right, the n 1'11 >'Jait for you,
    b u t uh, I would say that, uh , Dean's
    decision ought to be made soon, uh,
    and uh, r emember there 's not going to be
    any blackmail or nothing of that s ort.
    Call here, I ,-rant to follO'tl this damn
    thing, and uh, I want it clearly understood.
    But, uh, He' re, uh going t.O be concerned
    about blackrr.a.i l anyhm,! . It's (urlintel-
    ligib1e) him. I mean, uh, it's not the
    you can b e sure o f. The President's
    family all knm-l that they may try a little
    of that and they ' may say, "iVe ll, they all
    kneH about the c over-up and so forth" , all
    right, fine, but uh, don't let 'em black-
    mail you. Don 't you be a bit I
    mean Dean, l et me put up that Dea n now has
    aho:.:t as much , I'm afraieJ., in 'vic'" of ",hat
    has happened here , he has got about as much.
    uh, credihili ty as , as l':agruder has, Hhich
    ain't euch. That's th2 problem. -- Yeah.
    -- ?hat' s right. -- I";ould you like, like
    anybody. Okay. \-7ell, let me know about
    your day. HO'.'l you go vli th Dick Kleindienst.
    Call me right back ... Hell, you heard it.
    the solution to that. Kleindienst
    he had one iota of a (unintelligible)
    to get Gray off in a corner alone and s ay
    "You son-of-a-bitch, you can't talk like
    that". Yet he '.von't do it, maybe after
    this and Gray Hill -- and what you have.
    to do is, is not tell me to say, Itll
    just say, "Pat, I'm astonished at \'lhat
    you're going to say. I don't believe it
    and I want you to ..
    80
    A?nI L 26, 1973, FROM 3:59 P . M. TO 9:03 P.M.
    PH.ESIDENT:
    EALDEW\N:
    PRESIDENT:
    HALDElW\!:
    PRESIDENT:
    I-IALDEr:'i;N :
    PRESIDENT:
    EALDE!-L'\N:
    PRESIDENT:
    Hell. ..
    . tell me, is that true?"
    Yeah. Here is the problem that , uh
    the thing that of course is the loose
    cannon out there is again the son-ai -a
    bitch Dean.
    Yeah-.
    Dean says he gets the story that Ehrlichman
    told him to d e s ~ r o y the documents. So
    forth (unintelligible) "dcep-six" them
    and he said (unintelligible) but you heard
    what I said well now, that's a totally
    ridiculous story . 1 mean , if they're
    going to destroy t:he docuQents vihy would
    they call the Director of the FBI over
    and say, "LOOK, here's some documents,
    destroy them."
    i/'ore than that, ' 1 thought Dean's story
    was that I said that, but he thought
    better of it. So he didn't.
    And they gave 'em to Gray.
    So he gave them to Gray.
    tha t ..
    Yeah.
    Dean's told me
    . several times. This doesn't fit
    that (unintelligible ).
    Kleindienst, please.
    On the other side , y ou might want to use
    Kleindienst. He said Ehrlichman called
    J I
    81
    APRIL 26, 1973, FROM 3:59 P.M. TO 9:03 P.M.
    F .... ,
    Continued:
    PRESIDENT:
    PRESIDENT:
    Gray at hc;:;e Sundtly night at 10:45 about
    the envelooe in auestion, and Gray said,
    "John, I' gonna _. say; I d idn't knmv
    anything a.b out i -t." Ee said, "Yeah ."
    I said \ ';e deny it. I said, "Dean has,
    has tal ked about the de livery of the
    documents," and he said , "Xou can't let
    him say tha t." I said, "Ne ll, Pat, he's
    Cl.lready said it." Lnd he sa.id , "\\1e11, !'ll.
    deny it." lmd h e said, "You've gotta
    b21ck w.e up." ADd then I called back,
    r ememb er, four minutes later
    (Unintelligible). Nell, \.;hatever it was.
    He was sitting right here.
    He met for ti'lenty minutes. All right , I
    called him back, told Bob, and said, "Ptlt,
    I can't leave our previous conversation
    alone. You can't deDY it, b a cause I'm
    gonna ha-17e to up Dean \;hen he says he
    c.elivered it. But ";hat you said is that
    you must tell the truth , Pat. You've got
    to state the facts, don't get crosswise
    on this. n
    The problem is, \'lhat is Dean going to say
    about this today? That 's the point, isn 't
    it? The point is\'lhat the hell he says
    about this, isn't that? See, we haven't
    got anybody to taU:. to him. Ziegler?
    Ziegler could.
    Reel 4 Eegins
    Yeah.
    HAI,uZ,l.1\N: I suggest.ed to Ron that he talk to Dean,
    but he waDts to talk to you first.
    '.
    ' .
    a' U .. 0 ....... B' t. tWWt::t!S .. ti.?!SSG .. & ... !!X H!8tJii if!l.llWti j{I!tliI!!JCJl(bltb I tl!!:9i!+
    82
    APRI L 26, 1973, FROM 3:59 P . M. TO 9:03 P . M.
    PRESIDENT :
    EALDEHoi\N:
    All right , get Ron over here (unintel-
    ligible)
    Would you ask Ron Ziegler to come to the
    Proesident I s office, i rr.mediate ly, please?
    Tha nk you.
    Reel 3 Ends
    83
    l-Il' RI L 26, 1973 , 3:59 TO 9:03 P . H.
    PRESIDENT:
    P?.ES IDENT :
    :
    PRESIDENT:
    Gray said to you in that second conver-
    sation he didn ' t know wllere the papers
    came fron ; and I (u:lintelligible) say he
    didn't ope:l it, but he destroyed i t. And
    you put the thing down, the total shock
    saying he destroyed it.
    Yeah. I know. You , you, you, you, you
    showed it. You showed me here and well,
    he says, there goes ,my, uh, c areer .
    Well, the t rouble i s now talking.
    did ;
    We ll, I, I, I the expressio n.
    Sure
    (Unintelligible) just threw you right,
    I mean (uni ntelligible) it would.
    Yes, So I've a curious situa tion here
    I'd like to know more about (unintelligible)
    really i mportant.
    I didn't t e ll you about this problem of '
    why you didn't act on Gray sooner. (Un-
    intelligible) Gray's blo statements to
    Petersen. You can r eason him out. In
    other Petersen's still investigating .
    But you say all the witnesses and
    a ll haven't been c alled again.
    I knmv. But don't you think that in
    view of this--do you think Gray should
    resign?
    84
    hPRIL 26, 1973, FROM 3:59 TO 9:0 3 P . M.
    OP"2P..i\TOR:
    PRESIDENT:
    Yeah. Hello.
    (Unintelligible) calling.
    Uh, Dick, are you where you can talk?--
    Yeah. One thing I -think is very impor-
    tant and perhaps that , uh, awfullY
    difficult to (unintel ligible) Pat Gray,
    uh, that, uh--a story to the effect--I'm
    t<.llking now about the truth--a story to
    the effect that he came over to, uh,
    s office and recei\red documents
    and ' .. las told by Ehrlicp ...'1lan and/or Dean
    to destroy them, first, is not true.
    That's (unintelligible). What happened
    is, uh, is basically that he was handed
    the documents, and then the stupid fellow
    didn1t--told him they were not related
    to Watergate, but they were political,
    uh, documents, politically, uh, uh,
    Go(;tl..-:1ents and they \,;,ere delivering them
    to him. NOW, it, it seems to me that
    Gray , uh, frankly, that he just walks
    cut and says--r mean, you know (unintclli-
    gible)--but that he walks out and says
    that is not true, because, uh,
    has (unintelligible) I talked
    with Dean and, my God, Vlhat Dean \vill say
    now, I don't know. I mean there, uh,
    but, uh, but my talk vl ith Ehrlichman,
    which I know is, uh , is the God's truth.
    They handed him the documents and I, r
    remember that when, uh, thi s mattcJ:;" came
    called--you see the c-
    curious thc--just so you know the facts,
    Petersen first called Patrick and said,
    you have any, uh, did you receive
    such docuT'\ents?" And Gray denied having
    ever receiving any. D-denied it brice .
    85
    J..PRIL 26, 1973, 3 : 59 TO 9:03 P.I\1.
    PRESIDE,'I' :
    co::.tinued

    Then, finally, he said he refreshed his
    menory. He said, yes, he'd received them,
    but he destroyed them. \\e11 now, the
    point is, uh , I, called
    Gray alsc, uh, and said, "Pat , what about
    those envelopes that you got? " And uh,
    uh, and Pat, of course--which of course
    he denied , you see--he said, "You
    rCi:\eIT'bered it, you got theD, " and he says,
    the hell are they?" And he says,
    "I des'croyed them." and Ehrli chman \"as
    utterly shocked . Imd I I m sure Dean was
    utterly shocked. Over what Dean would say
    now, I don't kn'ov;. There ,,-as discussion
    of--Dean says there was a discussion we
    ought to get, we oughta destroy the docu-
    ments in Hunt's safe that, had nothing to
    do with Watergate, and so forth. But
    the point was, it was not done. It was
    handed to Gray, and Gray did destroy them.
    But t he critioal point is this--that th-,
    the Director o f the FBI- - it ' s bad enough
    fa!:: him to say , "I took the c:.ocumel!ts,
    and I destroyed them because they weren't
    r e lated to any cases you had , and I
    didn I t feel we should have (un.inte lligible ). n
    That's bad enough . But if he says that
    I c.estroyed them because I \'laS ordered to,
    can you imagine "hat that r:lakes him look
    like? And I, I want you to have a h eart-
    to-heart talk with him on that point,
    'cause I don't want to (unintelligible)
    that you're a l iar. So, uh, ar.e y ou
    (unintelligible)?
    (Pause)
    Yeah--Yeah. All right--right.
    right." Fine . All right. You
    back . Bye , bye ... We ll, crisis
    crisis an hour.
    All
    c al l me
    a day,
    86
    APRIL 26 , 1973, FROM 3:59 TO 9:03 P.M.
    ZIEGLER:
    PRESI D2NT :
    ZIEGLER:
    PFlESIDENT:
    ZIEGLER:
    PEESIDENT:
    ZIEGLER:
    PRES IDENT:
    ZIEGLER:
    PRESIDENT:
    ZIEGLER:
    PRESIDENT:

    PRES IDENT:
    ZIEGLER:
    Yes, sir. Dean (unintelligible).
    Right. Yeah. ''''e ll, I don't knmv,
    u h , i'lhen--ti1e 'rim-:=s will run the story
    in the morni ng'f
    Oh, I suppose so. Yes, sir.
    Yea h. And , u h , who'd they get it
    Do t hey kno,.,?
    It's allover tm;:n, apparently (unin-
    tell igible) true.
    (Unintelligible) .
    (Unintelligible) .
    Imd are they referring to the fa. c t: that--
    are they saying that--are they, are they
    usi!1S in the st:o!:"y the fa.ct that Ehr- r
    Ehrlich.r.!an and Dean,. and/or Dean o rde!:"ed
    Gray to destroy them?
    It doesn't say ordered him.
    Told him to destroy the m?
    It doesn't say t old, it says
    He destroyed them (unintel ligible) .
    .. a meeting.
    That I S right.
    Uhf 7ruitt, uh, his cormnents , . uh, it
    after h e had referred--he a lso had r 'eferred
    to t h e fac t that the ma teria l was forged
    blaming uh, Kennedy for the
    a ssassination of (unintellig ible ).
    - - - . - -- -.- - -'
    _ .' '... .. l ., ,
    87
    IU:'lUL 26,1.97 3 , PEON 3:5 9 TO 9:03 P.!1.
    HAI.DEt1AN:
    PRESIDENT:
    HALDEi1AN :
    ZIEGLER:
    PRESIDENT:
    HALDEHAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    :
    PRESIDENT:
    Hl\I.DEHAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    Hi\LDE1!.a.N :
    Diem.
    I thought it \'las .Di e m.
    Yeah.
    Referred I
    I don 't knO'..,- \:,hat I am--all I I m saying
    is what Truitt .
    I understand. I understand. But that's
    I think probably what it \l as. I don' t
    knm.... That's uh, but, uh, docs anybody .
    knm., \,hat the hell the . documents were?
    The only pe:!:'son I knO'.., \.;ho h2.s ever said
    that that's \,hat it. \'laS is John Dean.
    Yeah. SO::l,=body has seen those
    Sowebody has got to have seen the Goc.-
    dam..'1 docl.lmen ts .
    Fred Fieldir.g saH them.
    'Spose it helps, er, has anybody' talked
    to Dean?
    (Sigh). Dean told me that saw
    the documents.
    And that they involved the assassination
    of Diem?
    No, he--yeah, I gues's he did. He said
    that th-, among them was--he said there
    \ ... as a bunch of very bad political stuff
    and among them was some phony document,
    uh, that, that, uh--saying that Kennedy
    has instituted the assassin;;tion of Diem.
    You think that \Oic:.S (unintelligible) Dean?
    (Pause)
    DocId:31443856
    88
    },?:nL 26, 1973 , 3 : 59 TO 9 : 03 P.II.
    PRESIDENT :
    PRES IDENT :
    ZIEGLER:
    PRESIDENT:
    ZIEGLER:
    PRSSIDENT:
    ZI EGLER:
    P?ESIDENT:
    ZIEGLER:
    p IDErJT:
    ZIEGLER:

    ------ --- --
    Ye2.h . As I ...
    Dean says he never looked 2.t it. He
    says Fielding is the only cne ..
    Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I would
    thi nk this-- i t \'JCuld be inport.cmt first,
    for, uh--you have not reacted yet.
    No, didn' t think I should. Colson
    talked \Vi th !r.e.
    v .

    I -;: h ink he ,,,anted you to react to a
    star};'" ...
    Yeah.
    .. suen as this, and I'd overreact all
    e ver the place ...
    I agree.
    ... {unintel ligible) ...
    I agree. Now the point is, uh, should
    J ohn react?
    I he should. the situation is, as
    he knows it, I think . you're -- Colson should
    release it.
    Should, should Dean react?
    (unint.ellig ible)
    I didn't. think he was (unint.elligible) .
    But (ulli ntellig i b le).
    -.,..



    :
    PR:::S 1DE,':T ;
    PRESIDENT:

    PRESIDEKT:
    :

    89
    1973, FROM 3:59 TO 9 :03 p t-!.
    it would be helpful to knm, what
    the hell he's gonna say, \'lould you mind
    explaining it to John , say we 're getting
    queries on it and, uh , and , uh, and, uh,
    and , uh, t he , u h , that the question is ,
    uh, I just, is what you ' re ,
    uh- -what are , what anything, uh,
    you're gonna say? What is your thinking?
    Should we get into the fact that one
    r eport i s, understand that, that ... or ,
    or we
    Yeah .
    . that Gray claims that ...
    Gray?
    . that Gray was ordered to destroy them.
    By Dean?
    I don't know.
    Well, you do now.
    I told you that. I got that , I got that
    from, I got that from--I just talked to
    Kleindienst. Kleindiens t told me, and
    Petersen.
    (Unintelligible) .
    I>etersen claimed he's told him (unintelli-
    g ible) that, uh, Gray ' s, that uh, that uh,
    their version--Gr a y's version is that he
    was' orde r ed to destroy them. By Dean.
    11..nd that tnat' s vlhat the ,s tory is (Ul!.in-
    90
    ;:_?iUL 26, 1973, 3 : 59 TO 9 : 03 P.M.
    :'?::SID:c.:N7:
    cO:1tinued

    Z!I:GLER:
    P2SID:st-lT:
    P?..2SID:c.:NT:
    ZJ:::::GLER:
    telligible) and say, ""i-las that the case
    at: did you just hand it to him?"
    (Unint21Ii gible) .
    See \-lna t I mean?
    Yes, sir .
    I just want to get, I just want to know
    what he ' s gonna say. I ' m just trying to
    find out. Say, '.'John, uh," and uh
    r
    tell_
    hirr: we I re not gonna--He don't comlne nt
    stories here. Don't co:nmeJ::c on 'em from
    here. Net no'_v. 11
    lUld ask him not to say a nything vlithout
    checking with you first.
    Ar..}7 ::'ou Clsk hint ...
    Okay. Lei:: me j ust state it here.
    All right.
    In the last few d ays (unintelligible).
    I have not been checking with Dean about
    hoVl he responds.
    I see. All right.
    (Unintelligible) asked me to do this,
    so that's fine.
    Well , this is different.
    a Dean story.
    This isn't just
    91
    A??IL 26,1973, FRO:'l 3:59 TO 9:03 P.H.
    PR:; SIDENT :
    ZIEGLER:
    EIrRLICHHAN :
    PP,,:;SID:3NT:
    PPESIDENT:
    ZIl:GI:ER:

    ZIEGLER:
    PRE:SIDENT:
    ZIEGLER:
    ZIEGLER:
    This is cne that involved getting out
    Ehrlichman and Gray . That ' s the problem
    we've got. Just say, uh , "John, the only
    purpose of this is to, uh ... "
    (Unintelligible)
    (Unintelligible) cover-up, right?
    Right . Here, in a way ..
    Yeah.
    .. . 1 think we have
    Yeah, I mean, the ,President has to know.
    I ,UD., "lha t Ull, \vha t uh, \]ha t ;.;ha t
    happened on that day?
    Okay .
    I uh , what is his recollection?
    Just like to, like to knmi and ,that-- er,.
    Ron . . -
    Yes, sir.
    . under no circumstances (unintelligible)
    no, n o/ we can't.
    Right.
    Uh, \'le can't talk about it, but uh,
    (unintelligible)-- I think with this one
    we have to know.
    Okay.
    ' "
    92
    26, 1973, FROM 3:59 TO 9 : 03 P.M.
    ?R:2SIDE"JT:
    .
    :

    PRESIDE!.JT:

    (Door c loses )
    (Unintel ligible conversation)
    Well, let' s see what we c an do--uh,
    John, uh, I, I told Bob, uh, what your
    suggestion was and he said that we can't
    do thct. (Unintelligible) par t of the
    case and ' -Ie have to--i t' s simply--makes
    the ccse. But the reaction to that,
    and so forth.
    That was Frank rea ction, too
    Who is Frank Stridkler?
    Our r uh, our nuro.ber b -.:o la\.;yer.
    \'7hat did he say?
    Ee said he just--he 6idn 't think that
    we had , uh, anything . t o worry about and
    that it was not that big a deal. He
    said it ',las a big d eal for Pat Gray,
    but it \.;-on't mean anything to you. Once
    we get, uh, get a position on it.
    But, Hell, ,-,hat did he think you should
    get a position on?
    That's what we talked. I sent a copy of
    this over to him and, uh, with the under-
    standing that "7e ,-lOuld talk about (unin-
    telligible) want to talk about.
    (Pause)
    All our problems were (unintelligihle) but
    the most stupid thing that you coftld
    possibly have the Director (unintelligi-
    ble ) I'll never forget the look of shock
    on (unintell igible ).
    93
    l\PTIIL 26, 1973 , FHmI 3 ; 59 'EO 9 : 03 P./,j.
    :

    :
    PRESIDENT:
    PRES IDE!:T:
    What--did, did Petersen say that when
    he talked to Gray the first time that it
    was a casUal conversation, end doesn't
    Pat hold that against him, or something
    to that effect?
    No. He said , "Yes ," he said tha't Gray
    i s sorta casual and he asked him t wice
    and that--Kleindi ens t told me that Gray
    denied brice t hat he had got.te n the
    documents. He de!1i'ed it twice . And
    then finally refreshed his recollection
    and 'said, "Yes, I got it. "
    (Pause)
    Then it's then Petersen tended to
    apprecia te that. I gather it (unintel-
    lig ible)
    you mean , uh, uh, did it
    offend Gray?
    Yeah.
    No, no, no, no, no, he j ust said that.
    He says he just, he's just gotta take
    over this thing. And he said one of
    those god-damned thing is uh, just uh,
    ycu know, he--I don' t--knm'.'.
    (Twenty Second pause)
    Not that it's--makes a hell of a lot of
    difference but \'7ho do you think, what
    do you think the source of this--(unin-
    telligible) right out of t he Grand--not
    the Grand Jury--U.S. Attorney or Dean?
    Deem.
    '-
    94
    26, 1973, 3:59 TO 9:03 P . M.
    ZI:=;GL:=:R:
    PIGSIDE!'JT:
    ZIEGLER:
    PRESIDE;:';T:
    E2GLl::R:
    You think Dean?
    Dean , ye ah .
    (Pause)
    It hasn't been to the Grand Jury. Either
    got to be the Justice Departme nt or Dean
    or !l".8 .
    obviously (unintelligible) the
    Grand Jury , but I meant, u-, U-
    r
    u-, U-,
    by tr:e Justice Departr;.ent, the prosecuting
    tea:n, the la\vyer s' departlC'.cn t, the pro-
    s e cuting team. See, undobbtedly (unintel-
    ligible).
    He had just left for hqme, his secretary
    s ays .
    He! (Unintelligible)
    (Peuse)
    Well, Ron, I think that's what you have
    to do here. That son-of-a-bitch.
    You knmv ..
    Ah, it's e story that will effectively
    knock him--destroy him. Get the ,;ord to
    the FBI a nd I'll soon know Hhether the
    FBI Director--what be's gonna say. But,
    I don't care what he says, Gray's got
    to go tomorrow. Or would you agree?
    Yes, sir. I HOU ld C'.gree.
    95
    AP?IL 26, 1973, FROM 3:59 TO 9:03 P.M.

    :
    :

    P :?.E: S IDENT:
    He can't--I mean , if he, if , if he
    destroyed them because he was ordered
    to (unIntelligible ) if he destroyed
    them. gotta
    go either way. You see my point is,
    uh, that" this potentially happens.
    Ri ght?
    Well, he ll, material given to the
    eminent Di r ector of the FBI in his
    offici al capacity , to identify the
    sensi tive materials not related to
    the c ase at hand--purpose of giving
    them to him obviously was to have,
    have them retained.
    Sure.
    He ,';e!1t out and destroyed it. The guy
    is a fr i gging idiot.
    That's right. That's
    happened. That ' s the
    e:(actl:i \\'nc;: t
    truth in that:.
    I didn't want any part of it. He asked
    rne vlhy , and I ...
    He said he \'iaS gonna lie and asked you
    to corroborate his lie.
    That's right.
    never, interestingly enough, never
    said, "But you told me to destroy this ."
    That's right.
    No . No , thatls new.
    I (unintelligible).
    That's new. But
    '.
    ".
    I
    L
    96
    APRIL 26, 1973, FROM 3:59 TO 9:03 P.M.
    EHRLIGi1-1AN:
    PRESIDENT:
    EHTILICP..;.'-lAN :
    PRESIDENT:
    EHRLICHHl\..N :
    :
    PRESIDENT:
    PRESIDENT:
    ZIEGLER.:
    Which put it back ...
    Right. Right.
    . and then the normal reaction .
    (Unintelligible) I called back if I
    had said I "Fat, you Ire gonn"3. have to
    tell the truth," if , if, in fact , he be-
    lieved that I haa instructed him, he
    ,,,auld have said .. "h'ell, y-E"ah ," so and so,
    and so and so .
    .. (Unintelligible)
    You've got pretty good witnesses to
    that conver sation.
    One--at least one of whom I can use.
    (L21'..:gr'lter)
    Use that, can use that one. I'm not
    sure I (unintelligible) could anymore.
    (Pause)
    If he goes, "I think, uh--who could I
    do with as Director?
    I don't think you should
    But, uh, Bob, is there anybody else over
    there now, Bob, John, the Department of
    Justice that I could use? (Unintelligible).
    Okay, Ron, my boy.
    Okay, I'll be reporting back.
    97 -
    APRIL 26, 1 9 73, FRon 3:59 '1'0 9 :03 P.l'!.
    P RESID'::::KT: Can you report back on your Dean conver-
    sation?
    ZI EGLER:
    PRESIDENT:
    ZIEGLER:
    PRESIDEl:JT :
    Yes, sir.
    Thank you. You got anything else you
    want to ask about?

    All right. Okay, Ron.
    (Pause, door closes)
    Arrbrose.
    You can put F.!'::brose in there as Acting .
    Ehere is A;ubrose nm"?
    u:.-nDE'-.JTIFIED : He I s still over in the Narcotics Adrr.in-
    istration. He's about to leave . You
    could ask him to stay on for awhile.
    PRESIDENT: I'd rather put somebody like that in
    than to put Felt in. Right?
    Yeah.
    If k-nbrose, if he won't do it for a couple
    of months, vThy , uh, you knO'.-l, he' s clean
    and, uh, (unintelligible) political colora-
    tion. Ne\v York Republican . Is he a
    ca.mpai gner? Eould he agree to help as
    a calr,paign Horker, because ...
    Oh, no. No, no. It. .
    (
    98
    APRIL 26, 1973, FROM 3:59 TO 9:03 P . M.
    EHRLICH!13'U-J :
    PRES I DEi:'!T :
    UlHDENTIFIED:
    PRES :
    :
    P RESIDZNT :
    :
    PRESIDENT:
    ?:l.::SIS:::T:
    Regarding b e c a u s e of qualifications
    we ll, when he ha d campaigned a
    lot, not a lot, yeah--
    For us?
    Sure. He's conservative.
    Yeah.
    So he has a political coloration (unintel-
    l igible).
    Yeah , bu t I 'm not , (laug h s ) t he point is
    I'm not, uh, we're not putting him in
    there for, remerr.ber the (unintelli-
    gible) Senate conf i rmation. We're just
    of s omebody until
    somebody else can put in there.
    Uh huh . .
    (Pause)
    \'le1l, you could bri ng somebody llke this
    Ja.-:',es Q. Hilson Harvard in terr,por-
    arily , with t he understanding in advance
    that he "las only temporary t cause you're
    not considering him on a full time basis.
    He ought to get sonebody in the
    governnent. HOH about Rucke:;'shaus? Sure.
    (Unintellig ible) Ruckelshaus, just for a
    couple of
    Let him take a leave of absence.
    Yeah.
    '-"
    99
    APRIL 2G, 1973, FROM 3:59 TO 9:03 P.M.
    HI.LDS1':';'N: But this other thing--takethis one?
    PEES
    EHP..LICi-I!-1.:-"\N :
    PRESID:S:,:T:
    (Pause)
    (Unintelligible)
    Well, we've been thinking (unintelligible)
    a possibility for the job, too.
    Right. Right. Riqht.
    in this as
    but (unintelligible ).
    Yeah.
    He probably wouldn't be
    a permanent thing,
    If it's a . temporary thing, mi:1.ybe --
    (Forty Second Pause)
    Well, I don't know what Dean is trying
    to prove by this, but (unintelligible).
    (Pause)
    (Unintelligible)
    Yeah . (unintelligible ).
    But that kind of--the \-lay the story carne
    from the 'I'imes, it \'las that Gray had told
    friends de-da, de- da, but that's a standard
    New York line. (Unintelligible).
    (Pause)
    (Unintelligible)
    Can I see, uh, John, uh, can I see 'i'iha t
    you have in my statement?
    i
    -I
    I
    I
    100
    hP?IL 26,1973, FROH 3:59 TO 9:03 P.IL
    Sure. Then I'll -- Bob changes it somehow.
    I'll read it to you if I could.
    pretty screwed up (unintellig ible). "Hr.
    Gray received of the CO!ltents of the
    }lunt safe from Nr. Ehrlich..l-::an I s office
    from Mr. Dean in June, 1972. Mr. Dean
    had previously sealed it in a large
    envelope. was told by Mr . Dean
    that the contents sensitive materials
    not in any way related to the Watergate
    case. Mr. was present but
    neither then nor at any other did
    he give Mr. Gray any request, suggestion,
    or instruction regarding what ihould be
    done \lith the contents. Mr. Ehrlicb-::\an
    does not know the nature of the contents.
    Up ur!.til April 15, !lr. Ehrlicb-,'TIcn assun1ed
    the FBI Director still had the contents.
    Hr. EhrlichlT\<J.n discovered certain ne'-:;"
    f acts cO!lcerning the contcr!. t s of the
    Hunt safe on April 15, 1973. He proI':'.ptly
    reported his findings to the President
    the day , and were relayed to
    Mr. Petersen, the Assistant Attorney
    General. The matter has been under
    investigation by him since."
    (Uni ntel ligible) .
    "Certain ne,,, fact concerning the contents"
    (lli,i nt.elligible) "concerning the status of
    the contents."
    Yeah. That's right.
    Or the, uh, the current, uh, positior- of
    the contents or something . Condition
    the status -- we already got that.
    \.
    101
    26 , 1973, FROM 3:5 9 TO 9 : 03 P . M.
    : Concerning , concerning the, uh ..
    The status of the contents. The disposi-
    tion.
    Yeah.
    Oh, the disposition is the--what I'm
    driving at .
    .
    PRES IDE:IT:

    PP2S!DE;:!T :
    :
    P f'ESIDE0lT:

    Yea.h . Yeah .
    You gonna let Ziegl er put that or
    will that be your (unintelligible).
    (Unintelligible) a c o uple of first names
    .
    t 's your though t,' John, have, uh,
    Ziegler put that out?
    Hell, Ron Hould rather not. He, he
    would rather not.
    Yeah, (unintelligible )
    Petersen, Petersen (unintelligible).
    Ehrlichman (unintelligible). You say
    I, I, I, you see .
    h'hy don't you just put out the statement
    yourself, John?
    Fine.
    I think it's best ..
    102
    APRIL 26, 1973, FROM 3:59 TO 9:03 P. N.
    EHRLICmLAN:
    PRES IDE !:'1 T :
    EHRLICHW\.N:
    EII?..LICF.lLllli :
    PRESIDENT:
    PRE:SIDENT:
    E!:{RLICfI11.1\.N:
    PRESIDENT:
    EHRLICF.NAN:
    PRESIDENT:

    Fine.
    I thir.k it I S best that you do that ra'cher
    than should stay in a position,
    "I'm not gonna comment on this case," so
    forth and so on.
    The r.;l1i te House Office could still put it
    out. Gerry Barren just puts it out .
    Yeah .
    . . as a statement b y John D. Ehrlich.r:.lan.
    Yeah. That's what I say. I, er.
    (Fifty Second
    He told me, the judge
    is taking under adviseRent the situation--
    didn't I, didn't I tell you?
    No.
    He is taking under advisement. the situation
    with regard to--(unintelligi ble).
    Urn h17LCl.
    The break-in, and, uh, he is making, making
    no decision on this (unintelligible) the
    Brady issue (unintelligible) now, or hold-
    ing to the fact that (unintElligible) post-
    trial (unintelligible) that it's
    just not, uh, pertaining (unintelligible}.
    (Unintelligible)
    I .. muld. hope and pray that they \,ere

    103
    I,PRIL 26,1973, FRO:i 3:59 Cl'O 9:03 P.'I.
    :
    PRESIDENT:
    Pf?ESID:::1 T:
    :
    PRESID:S!Jr:l' :
    NOw, did I , er, understand from your end
    of the conversation that they're still
    trying to get Dean to a guilty plea?
    (Pause)
    (Sighs) You see, here's the problem.
    (Pause)
    They got j:agruder ready to plea.d. But
    they need Dean to--and, un, Ull--
    (Pause)
    Are Magruder and bean (unintelligible)?
    No. They're not. They're ....
    (Unintelligible) .
    (Unintel ligible)
    Hho basically, as I say I "iere mortal
    enemies (unintelligible) Dean and Magruder
    are.
    Well, Magruder ran for his ass very much;
    Dean had to coach him into his perjury.
    Yeah, yeah. That's--Dean (unintelligible ).
    He can slide out of everything else, but
    that, I can't see any, anything, any--all
    right. So they'll still talk to their
    laHyers Hith regard to, uh, what Dean is
    gonna do. And I guess Dean logged this
    kind of stuff in for the purpose of in-
    creasing his bargaining power. If t.hen--
    (Pa use)
    e mrs
    ".
    J
    104
    !.P?IL 26,1973, F Rml 3:59 TO 9:03 P.r.! .
    PRESIDENT:
    ccntinued
    PRESIDENT :

    :
    PD.ESID:::!JT :
    PFSSIDENT:
    E!iRLIC2-;.l;'N:
    ??-.::::::lIDENT:
    E:-:PlIcm:.AN:
    :
    On the plea, wouldn't you (unintelligible).
    I don't knoH.
    \Yell, ,,,hat ...
    (Unintelligible) .
    Go ar..ead.
    (Unintelligible) what it 's about.
    \'7ell, just say,"But:, . but at the ending, '
    uh, cross that bridge wherever it comes
    (unintelligible) of the blackmail. 11 John,
    don't you agree?
    (Unintelligible)
    nL.h?
    1';0.
    You can't do it. You can't do it. You,
    you can't be , I c an't be. Even a Presi-
    dency cannot be and, uh, (unintelligible).
    Em'" can you ask me what I mean in my
    notes, I didn't (unintelligible). I had
    I better call and r edictate this (unin-
    telligible) .
    Yeah . Would you like to (unintelligible).
    May give it to a secretary ...
    Yeah, Jan's around .
    (Pause)
    lOS
    P.l' l:IL 26,1973, FRG:'l 3:59 TO 9:03 p.n.

    cO:1tinued


    I if this chang2s our situation,
    John, with regard to (unintelligible).
    (Pause )
    The book , you know.' I wonder if you
    (unintelligible) move on it today (unin-
    t ell i gible) long time .
    (Fause )
    (Unintelligible) expect contributions.
    You've got that probleln. And I--there's
    no way, Bob, I can figure the son-of-a-
    b i teh . You heard \'ihat I told hi,}? And
    I said get him in (unintelligible) .
    (Unintelligible )
    beat's tj:UG. F::r.:! t alked , uh, to
    t heir l awyers and apparently got into
    a plea.
    I don't really und2rstand t hat. hThy do
    they have to get into plea? Hhy don't
    t hey just (ctintelligible).
    to get more out of it .
    (Unintelligible) .
    (U",intelligible). I wondered if (unintel-
    l igible) , buJc you shouldn 't hit Ron,
    all of you.
    (i?ause )
    (Unintelligible) .
    \ ,
    "
    106
    APRI L 26, 1 973, FROM 3:59 TO 9 : 03 P . M.
    P?ES IDE!-;T :
    (Uninte llig ible) uh.
    please.
    Hr. Ziegler,
    un, get mare deeply
    involved .
    (Phone rings)
    Yeah, hold on your Dean call (unintelli-
    gible) .
    You e1 ther . ..
    is a pretty--you know what I mean,
    you can't, uh, (unintelligible) .
    This is not deadly It's
    c.a..-r.aging but not here . Unless Gray
    to take this , thi.s course--if
    he tri es to--if he goes out that way.
    I ' n sure we can because it shatters
    the Fal (unintelligible). But that's
    ir:e"ri t able . .!cha t (s--'h':e c annot clo
    that. No matter what Gray says. Even
    if he was ordered to destroy it and did,
    uh--it shatters him. But, I--this is
    why I total l y believe Dean.
    absolutely convinced he did not tell
    Gray to destroy them.
    Did Dean--did you e ver pass Dean or did
    you ever get to discuss this v-lith him?
    Yeah. And Dean said I didn't discuss
    it \-lith him, he told me c..bout it, but
    this is one he considered one of
    his greatest moves . Was--ncw Dean does
    say ...
    Ehrlichrnan told him to destroy it but he
    c. id ::.. I t do it.
    107
    APRIL 26, 1 973, FROM 3 : 59 TO 9:03 P.M.
    EALDE2lTI.N ; But he said I vlas too sraart fo:c that.
    I figured out how to do it , which is
    t6 put it in the hands of Gray and
    t hen, have the FBI put i t in a
    sealed envelope that won ' t be used by
    these ba.stards \\Tere leaking stuff
    out of the FBI. Just put in the Director's
    office in secret files.
    He thought that was an
    That ' s for sure . He went back and as
    I understand it Ehrlichrnan agreed with
    hiE1 (unintelligible) much better idea
    (unintelligible). That's his line. I
    have no r eason to believe Ehrlichman did
    tell him to destroy it. I h ave a fee ling
    h e decided to destroy it.
    (Unintelligible ) .

    Gr ey did
    . . ?
    le:.
    Dear. did it. But then he t hought
    t h rough that h e shouldn't destroy it.
    But soon figur ed out that the way to
    avoid the strike was to turn it over
    to Gray. turned the other stuff
    over to t he FBI agents (uni nte lligible)
    Gray . I don't think Dean--I really don't
    t hink Dean tried to destroy them.
    Oh, I know (unintelligible).
    (Pause)
    (Uninte lligibl e ) .
    (Paus e)
    '\ .
    '.
    \
    1-
    ""-,
    108 "'.'x.
    A:.>lUL 26, 1973, FROH 3 : 59 TO 9:(jJ "2.1-1.
    U:.HDENTIFIED;

    PRESID:::::-1T;
    PRSSIDENT:
    HALDEr-1.ZU'J :
    PRESID::::NT:
    Deem hates Gray b '2 cause Gray c a lled hin
    a liar and (unintelligible).
    Then D2an could say
    that Ehrlichman ordered hinto destroy it.
    And then you mean, b s cause \'Ie have to try
    and get. both Ehrlicl:man and Gray (unint.el-
    ligible) . I don't think he knew it, I
    think De an--Dean IS inter es';: --if you uanted
    to get Gray, this is a hell of a good
    way to get Gray. But when t.hat
    I tell him to destroy 'em, the
    durob son-oI-a-bitcn did that himself.
    Look, you've been through nm,]--\',e' ve
    been through of t.he (unintel-
    ligible) 2lst thing to be quite
    honest that's his (unintelligible) t.hat is
    his, uh, trump card, that's his trump
    card.
    You don't think that's his trump card?
    Hhat the hell do you think his trunp
    card (unintelligible)?
    I would guess it's Petersen.
    (Unintelligible). This administration
    (unintelligible). No, on this one--on
    this one he's (unintelligible). The
    encouraging part about it is the latter
    part that you wrot.e me t.oday. Do you
    (unintelligible) l egal matters. You
    recall it quite categorically (unint?l-
    1igible) "Ie \'ient through all the d.ocuments
    and personal papers (unintelligible).
    "
    -
    .", PT'IL 2 5 , 1 9 73 ?RO'l 3 : 59 TO 9 : 03 P ',,1
    :
    (Cor :t. )
    :
    PRESIDENT:
    [ Reel 5 begins)
    until (uninte ll is; i b l e ) lil: c to h 2. ve Cln
    oppor t:. u.'!i ty to clCZl r my s elf o f cha rges
    or until , unt i l, I 2.m c02ple tely cl e ar
    of c hargas o r a ny others (un in-
    telligible) Ch a r ges o r a re a ny other
    vlrons doi n g uh, b e c a use I c a n't , uh, \'Vi th
    'integri ty , wh i ch you have ins iste d upon
    ( unintelligible)
    [Reel 4 ends)
    .. and, uh, I, I, would say (unintell igible)
    I just, nust--re-thinking . I told, told
    Ron to help . Told him to cal l the Dean
    as to, \;l1ether \,lanr:<1. get--\,rhether maybe
    if vie O1,;.ght not t o do tha t .
    Um hum.
    Th2.t is why, uh, my (unintelligible)
    ga,,-e that control ' if, if, if give you any
    i nforTIl2.tion first, first Dean ' s gor:na say one
    o f .. ;o;; things.. He tIl ei th0r one,
    ull, Ehrligh:nan told him to destroy it, v!hich
    would be false. And then you 'll to say--
    then you're up against two p e ople lying, or
    you've gatta say , uh , Pat Gray is lying. It
    might not (unintelligible) destroy them.
    Let's just let it develop naturally.
    And the facts are nmV' He have something
    from hi m already . Uh, now, Ron thinks
    probably this should not come out of his office.
    Yeah, W1, could you get, uh, Ziegler?
    (Hangs up telephone)
    I'le ll, you could put i'c, uh, out of your
    office . I mean, how do you do it (unintelligiblel_
    Hell, I don 't Uh, r.ly a.ttorney, I suppose.
    rings)
    I
    ".
    ".

    , r
    ...... , 1973 FROM 3:59 TO 9:03 P . N.
    119
    :
    Yeah. I just can ' t (unintelligible ) call
    Dean , uh, Dean . Will you do that? Yeah .
    De2.n. P..i[:;ht . Just say that, uh ,
    (unintell:Lgil.Jlc) . Okay . The.nk you , thank
    y ou . Okay (unintelligible ) Just , uh , there's
    an here about , uh ( unintelligible ).
    \ Tery good .. B:/c ..
    (Hangs up telephone)
    I just talked to Wilson.
    Yeah.
    And, uh, he, he approved this, and uh, doesn't
    mi nd except that , uh, this thing
    i n context is not h ing .to get excited about
    unless Gray a which implicates
    you 0:' me or sonebody here, in which
    case, (unintelligible) i t ' s gonna have to be
    handle d (unintel ligible ).
    He says you're not goi ng t o se ttle for the
    fi rst story, regardless of the man and his
    job, t!1e statement inplicating, for example,
    uh, (unintelligible).
    The President ordered him to des troy this?
    Well , . no, he ' s saying if there ' s any evidence
    that the White House ordered it. He said that's
    gonna -- that's gonna, back hea dlines so big
    t hat you never saw the statement you put out,
    anyway, he said.
    Pretty good. Yeah, yeah.
    Kleindienst (unintelligible) no Petersen,
    Petersen. Yeah .
    You have to say this old guy is a pretty
    good Foan .
    Yeah .
    ( Unintelli Gible) h e , uh, uh, I gue ss
    ( unintel
    1
    . ;:.:;; l.'le ) .
    "
    "
    APRIL 25, 1973 FROM 3:59 to 9:03 P. H.
    120
    :
    P:i2SIDENT :
    PnS3
    :
    He said, !IDa not try to get John Dean's
    concurrence or cooperation." He said
    ( unintelligible).
    Right.
    You ,',ere just sa:"ing, and, un, he had a
    little l 2."gu2.ge to change . So, uh, 1
    '
    m,
    1'm ready to GO on' this , and I'll just
    defer to your j u.dgp,ent and so forth, on hOi';,
    how to put it out. Obviously, I would rather
    put it out here. '1'nis is 1.Ihere my office is.
    This :Ls \',here I'm dOing business, but, uh, uh,
    I don ' t ask Zie g ler to vouch for it, uh--
    Just put out a little statement by John
    Ehrlichman. They run it off and then
    (unintelligible) stick it out there
    (unintelligible) also press secretary
    (unintelligible) the point i3--
    \'ihy, just give it to the-- just call in a
    Gew York TiDes reporter and give it to him.
    You could call (unintelligible).
    Yean .
    And just say, uh, "You put a girl on. I'll
    dictate my statement.
    1I
    Yeah, that's the way I think I'd do it.
    Right .
    I think that's fair (unintelligible).
    The l.Je,.,r York Times wi ll compose if;.
    Risht . Say you've go tta, you've gotta call
    the office.
    Then tl1e press office refers to your statement
    in the Times.
    121
    26 , 1971 FROM 3: 59 TO 9: 03 P. M.
    Or , I could give a of it as r
    gave it to the and if thsy get inquiries
    on it, they just sc_Y, 1I \'jell, \: e ' ve
    got a copy of the statement he gave to the
    Tin:es . "
    That's right . So they put it back ou t and
    find a n anS1"ler.
    Certainly.
    We should talk about --certainly we've been
    doin; it as individual type . ry the
    t elevision reporter got
    Yeah, ol:-'].y , that's ":hat we'll do. (Unintelligible )
    r bet ter So and do that. That office has a
    de a dline.
    All right. Fine . Do that . I ' ve gotta try
    to get (unintelli gib le).
    ( F:"lintelli gi ble) You oUGht to stay until you '.
    put on to dlcta.te r::y stateme nt
    tha t I --at this stage , ':ie appreciate your
    (unintelli gib l e ).
    Yeah.
    Do that on a pers onal basis.
    Yeah.
    Good night. Bye, John--trying to get--
    (Unintelligible) Gray appreciated
    putting all this ( unintelligible).
    (Pause)
    How would you do that on the ( unintelligible1
    Hhat Hould you. --\,;olllJ. you bring someone in to
    take over the rol e ?
    122
    --
    --
    26, 1973 FROM 3:59 TO 9:03 P.M.
    P;;SS IDEiJ'i':
    EA I:C:Si;IAN :

    I think you'd to, particularly with
    Cole, in that
    job.
    Is Rush (unintelligible)?
    I think it's a (unintelligible ) thought of
    Rush, of
    The riel'! York Tir:ies says it hes it all
    solved ( unintelligible).
    ( Telephone rings)
    (Unintelligible ) serious.
    Hello. Yeeh. I wondered if you'd had your
    telk viith uh , Hith Patricl<: . Yeah. Let me
    say, let me say that , uh, the one picture I
    think that (unintelligible) about this, that
    is totally devast ating, because , uh, I have
    checked my notes on what Dean's told everybody
    here. Uh, I alc;o, on this, this, this matter
    and, uh, Ehrlich2an has put out, has put out
    his little Pet Gray (unintelligible)
    not told to destroy any, and he must not
    say that. Thet,s that . You see, that ls gonna
    it. Particularly in view of the fact
    tha t he had tl'iO conversations (unintelligible)
    ";here he remembered getting it. The, the,
    the only thing, if you--you see, if he agrees,
    you've gotta put it to him quite personally.
    I, I don't ,-rant to do it myse lf if necessary,
    but I will. But he can't do that because I
    ,-;ould have to say he lied on it, so-Yeah, yeah.
    But, but, l et me say--no, no, he, he mn:s.t
    not. All that does' is to sey--Iook, uh, you
    understand? It doesn't help, it doesn't help
    hi2, uh, anymore and it hurts terribly here.
    You kn.ol{ th8 point? Yech, yeah, just as a
    result 'of this, yeah, I understand. But .. t';hat
    do you do about Dean then? Uh, print it up or
    sc;::etilin:::;? Yeah . (Pause ) Yeah . On Gray? Hell,
    I'r::. not sUGsesting that, uh, Gray \'iill go .. uh, uh.
    -
    123
    .' ,
    ==--. -=L_
    2
    c.c
    6
    _, ',--:::c
    l
    ,-"S,-,7c->3 ? R m: 3: ':) 9 TO 9: 0 J
    :: -:'. ;:: 5 ICEt-:T:
    continued
    ??2:S
    We don't have to do that to him the first
    thing , and jUGt based on this one
    Is that what you 're suggesting? I'm,
    I'm not well, I'm, I'm, think about it.
    I agree. I agree, cause he's got a right to
    hi8 in court, too, have, and
    another thing--I don't have a substitute, not
    yet. Okay .
    (Hangs up telephone)
    He ' s got a point there. Ee says, III just
    don ' t see how you can Gray go and
    others not go, too." 'l'he I'Iho.le, you knol'i
    what I mean, uh, story. Well, it's (unintelligi ble )
    I don't understand that. That guy is just
    for some reason, he's obsessed
    with our leaving the--
    hm'T can he?
    Everything.
    (Cnintelligible) what I told you
    ( unintelligible) said about Dean .
    [Jot to him?
    No. I said, "Hhat about Dean?"
    \-1ho. t ! d he say?
    He said, "Hell (unintelligible).!! He said,
    the, I said, "You can! t--if you t reo gonrra
    say that somebody else lose, uh, uh--"
    There ' s sorr,ethinc;, I checked l:i th ( unintelligible ) .
    Hhy does he l,a.nt to get out nOlv'? I ' ll tell you .
    '1':'12. this case--
    Well , if Ehrlichman goes out , he ' s got one
    124
    APRIL 26, 1973 FROM 3:59 TO 9:03 P. M.
    Hl'.LDEr-Ll\N :
    cont inued
    PHES I DEI'T T :
    HALDEMAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    HALDEI''IAN:
    PRESIDJ::H'l':
    PRESIDJ::NT:
    HAUEUIAN:
    PRESIDENT:
    :

    hell of a problem, Petersen has . Ehrli chman
    is, is--he t s hell-bent to destroy Petersen.
    Well, will Petersen do this to Gray?
    Yes.
    To Dean--
    ... in alliance with Dean . See , J ohn's
    convi n ced that Petersen's out to get him
    because the- - and that the Justice Department
    knew about it because John tried to remove
    Petersen along with everybody e lse except
    one guy, one of the people he failed--the
    New York Division .
    Oh , yeah.
    And i'That I mean, Klei ndienst may be \irong
    about Baker (unintelligible )
    (unintelligible) but I have a feeling that
    he has h is motivation to try to get John out
    of here and , uh , knows that if John stays in
    here and survives this, that Petersen never
    (unintel ligible) again.
    What do y ou think, looking back (unintelligible) .
    Yeah.
    Frankly, \'Te need, uh , I , I , I gues s I agree
    ,dth this , \': ith that, that , I , I, I ( uni ntelligible)
    concluding that I kno\'l this is a problem. The
    problem \;e have is getting the God damn Hhite
    House (uni ntelligible ). I mean, 1--
    Yeah .
    Ye ah, and I, I mean, I, I really ca.n' t, I
    can't call (unintelligible) do is worry
    about other things a nd so forth, you know,
    matters and that sort of thing . I don 't--
    ;
    '.
    J'YfUL 2u, 1973 FRor; 3 : 59 '1'0 9:0'3 r . n.
    P!1ESIDSlIT :
    :
    PHESIDEl'JT :
    IIJ\ LDEi"IA!-J :
    PRES IDE!'Tr;: :
    Hf:....l..1DEUI!\.IJ:
    HALDE:IAN :
    BULL :
    Pi\ESI DENT:
    I kno:.'l , I ' rn ,,' hard Dan to ,,ork: for. I'm a
    hard Dan ( unintelligible ), You know what I mean?
    Trust people: .
    Ycah, but you ...
    That's right .
    You expect results ; One of the problens
    you've been having, you ' re not goin3 to get
    the results that you expect and then you,
    you j ust , that ' s- - you g otta face that , you're
    not getting that.
    (Pause)
    I could rely more' on (unintelligible ) 1--
    but you COUld , you, you, are able to
    deal with (unintelligible) wel l.
    I can say basically on the staff mesclng, I
    think should be staff reeetings (unintelligible:
    There ' s another guy you could bri ng in
    temporari l y would be accepted and could
    do it , \rould be but it r.tight
    not be a bad move and you could do it on
    a temporary basis. See whet h er it 'd work,
    decide then. (unintelligible ) . Thanks very
    much.
    The Attorney General c a lled (unintelligible).
    Yes.
    He called (unintellig ible).
    Kleindi enst , please . Hella . Oh, hello, Dick.
    Ho;, are you'? YC2.h . Yea;' . Ri ght, ri ght . .
    ( 90 second pause) But he, but he , then, then did
    not--you say, did not say ttat he ordered
    to (les troy the;:1 . Is that ) that-- ( pause ) yeah,
    ( 30 second Yeah . Gut it was Dean, too.
    That ' s !'i[;ht , t)-.at ' s risht, that ' s ri ght. ( Pause )
    Yeah. Hibil .
    z
    144
    n:-:E, 26, 1973 lCRcn 3:59 TO 9:03 p . r; .

    cont.i.!lUed
    ( Unintelligible) you off. i1ir;ht, right,
    r ight . That ' s --I know ( unintelligible )
    but how do--we just-- look, then you should
    say nothing. Yeah, yeah, but in terms of the
    r esignation ( unintelligible ) talked. to Dean.
    about Dean? He said that Petersen
    ( unintelligible) . They 're gonna have to,
    they 're genna have. to get Dean. You know
    ,-Tha t I rr.ea!1.? 'And, uh, Dean! s la\lJyers, uh
    (unint el ligible) can yo u give hin ir..munity?
    Dean. Dean? But you you? Right,
    t ha t's right. Is there anybody advising him?
    That ' s ny poi nt. \'Tell, then, then basically
    all you can talk to Dean about is, not i mmunit y ,
    but you may talk about, uh whether youtll give
    .h in the fairest treatment \',e can. Isn't that
    right? There's no \.'ay J'ou can give him immunity
    for example, for perjury, is there? You see
    that--no, 1--".;ell , that , thatts right, that' s
    right. Ho. Yeah, Yeah . Uh, and, and, that's
    the pOint and Y0l,! also can, c an say, ub, un.,
    he's gonna be (unint el ligible) on Pat. Whatls
    your advice? What, what, what do you
    and Henry think? Uh, uh, I'll take care of my
    problerns. Let J;"te tell you--tell Petersen he
    shouldn't, uh, h e shouldn't , uh, I nean, uh)
    uh, I've got my mJl1. I can handle my m\'"n \'iay
    you uh, uh, aft er all itTs a little bit
    different version what Petersen told me.
    Petersen told me that Ehrlichman had ordered
    Gray is gonna say that Ehrlichman
    to de stroy the documents. Now that's
    proved not to be true. Yeah. I want the damn
    truth. I don't c c:.re "rhether--1 don' t--I l(noH
    Pe t ersen hates Ehrlichman, and that's all
    ri ght, too, but I, I, I don 't want> I don't want,.
    I don 't want Peters en to go easy on him. Yeah.
    Right . Yeah. (Pause) Yeah, obstruction's about,
    in i';hat \-;ay? But not to cover up Oh,
    I see. I ge t it. \'Ie ll, I think that--1 don't
    think that . I l ike Petersen , I IT:82n myself ,
    you kno,{ \,:hat I ",ean . Dh , you trust him, nO';I,
    don ' t you? All ri ght . Uh, gonna clean
    145 "
    1973 3:59 TO 9 : 03
    :
    con'tinued
    P22SIDEI :':L' ;
    (Cant.)
    up, but I mean I can't , I, I, I'm t alking
    to him, I' m talking to him, as if he, hels my
    couns e l now, and I've , uh, I've (unintelligible).
    Yeah ( unintelligible) but my point is, yeah,
    my point is to come back to the judgment
    whether Petersen, Petersen, whether
    h e should do it on the basis of, uh, his total
    l egal ( unintelligible ). This is, this is
    another, uh, view of the--He thinks his
    ability to deal with the chQr ge , but this, he, '
    h e , should say exactly what happened h ere, uh,
    that he I-loul d have delivered these
    files I uh I but, uh, He I'cepe told they were
    not, not in any way related to the Watergate.
    They were totally political documents. (Pause )
    That h e didn't open it. That ' s right. , Well,
    it, it, it, that's why the destruct i on line wonl t
    you see? Yeah. Hhy did.n't he loole into
    it to see ",hat they ",ere? On, boy. Ho, no he
    musn't.
    [ Reel 6 begi ns]
    Let me say-- look, Pat must not ever say that
    pu':llicly. If--let me think--if he says that,
    that's a conclusion (unintelligible) public--
    my point is if he says that the Hhite House
    counsel, of course, Dean, ordered him to
    uh, if he, that he, that he drew that conclusion
    uh, but you understand, that makes him look like
    a God damn-- it looks like--it looks like there--
    it not only looks like a fool, it looks like
    the two of them together were conspiring to
    destroy evidence.
    [ Reel 5 ends]
    146
    N)HI L 26, 1973, FRON 3:59 to 9:03 P.N.
    :
    They, they can't do it, he's got to put it, Pat's
    got to pu't it, he's got to be, he's got to put it
    in terms--(2tl panse) That are, okay.
    (11 second pause) Now he should not h ave to do that
    to, 'Dean or anybody else (unintelligible). liell he
    can't' ge't hurt, EhrlichE!an didn't say, Ehrlichnan
    vias there. Yeah. (pa.use) \';onderful, loyal fellm"
    and somet:.irr.es just rigidly (unintelligible) but,
    but, but let ne say one thing, he's interested
    in the President.' s (un intell igible) . But I must
    say that the solution wonld be to testify, that
    I ,,as ordered to des'troy these docU!"TIents or, and
    even that I the that Er. Dean
    ,,anted to d estroy the",., that's pr<l ctically the
    saqe thing, hul-:? 1-11, \\Tell do your best o n it,
    but you see my point? I mean, ah, you, you t ell -
    him, you tell him, "Pat, thet just doesn't, -tliat
    just doesn't add up." (unintelligible). Well, I
    canilot r that' 5, th2:t I s \vhat he, that's '''hat he
    \','ould say torr.orro;...' (unintelligible). Yeah. Kell,
    ,-.'hat ,yould he do tcmorrm.;, resign (unintelligible)
    because of his cl:arge? (pause) Hell, under the
    circu:..stances (unintelligible), ah, that he, ah,
    let's just put it this way, let's just put it this
    way, ah, the I:1at.ter is very grave c.h--Hould appear
    be:!:ore the Grand Jury. The Grand Jury \yould
    indict hin. You don't think so? Hhy not? Yeah,
    well that's the point. (39 second pause) You
    r'_ean that ah, as far as, what about the conspiracy
    to cover up (unintelligible) was just bad judgment:.
    I _fra...'1kly think myself r'm not, I'm not of the
    just based on the newspaper stories, I'll
    reconsider. I not only feel that as far as
    (unintelligible) has begun, ah, I think frankly
    ,,;e ousht to treat him like we're treating the
    others, nOH God Oerm i to, the Grand Jury I let's see
    ,;hat the Grand Jury does. But in the end, \'7e're
    gonna pass and it'd be out any\vay, I'm sure.
    You know what I mean?
    ...
    147
    APRIL 26. 1973, 3:59 TO 9:03

    (C.J::':l'I1!UED ) :
    Ar..d ah , all ( I've got to--I, I may move ,
    I may move on this thing so (unintelligible).-
    Fair All Sut ah, tell Re
    about ah (unintellir, i b l e ).
    tonorrow. That's ri Gh t. Don't do a darn
    \-!hich '::ould r e sult in 2. ne\-!SD2.De r story. (Unintel.':'"
    li sible). Petersen, I've cot a lot of to
    do and ah tell, tell Pet e rsen you're
    to hin that I his hard work on this -
    thins. counsel because 1'n jUst
    (unintellirible) And, un, after all
    (unintelli r;ible) th2t' s rip-!1t, Dean) ah the ?!eN
    York (unintell i sible) renorters. (32 second
    pause). In other words, then he's lock like
    the ba stard. That's \':h2.t, that's the t:"ls thir1!'J:
    bett er j us t b et t e r out . 3ecause it's the -.
    t ruth, it' s the truth . P.ut ,-,hat about--he has
    everything t o do on it. Yeah, y eah.
    Yeah, yeah. Rir;ht. tJO\-I, nov, he ' s trying- to pin
    everybody else ,-Ii th it) he says that ah) he S2-YS
    that the, yeah. Th2nk God (unintellir::ible} h=:.s just:
    not been avai12.ble. You' do ;.;:nol.'I, I ne'!er sai-;
    personally they're about
    and then that'll 100].: better bec 2use, because-of
    the Gray confirmation on ?ebruary the 22nd. Never.
    Never. That's right. Or February, now_wait a
    minute, nOH let me just check the bool<: here. 27th l'
    27th, 27th of February. That's And then--
    never , exceot, except one tir.,e to sipn my-
    That's rir;ht. I, look that's the Nork
    here, you knQ1.T, I mean, I told. the l"T2.n in ch2.rf:e
    t hat's uh--oh, we have been with (unintel-
    ligible). Last summer? I never, well you
    listen, let's get one thinp; strair;ht. I, the
    President, never saN JO!1n once excent to sisn
    a ne\V' will. And ;-:as on the 1.4th .. that
    "las the first. in signi n;;:; the> that .. ras the onlY'
    time I ever saw But everything that
    has been put out by and gean to
    know, was based on what oeoDle told him. There was
    no Dean i-Tri tten report, but) but ny God, Dean
    or2.lly said that, why do you , why do you think
    Dean (unintellisible) a will which he can
    deliberately set out and say (un!nt elilgible)?
    C2.use Dean told him, that. Why would Ziegler
    1F

    APRIL 26, 1973, 3:59 TO 9:03 P.M.
    P?::':SID::::nT
    (COll1
    '
    IlWED) :
    P;:{SSIDSiIT:
    BULL:
    PRESIDENT:
    HALDErLA.N:
    P:SSIDErIT:
    have said that?Did he
    ,
    did--Riqht. did he aive von
    the impression that he did see me? I'll be -
    d2.r:;;led. All rip:ht, Hell an:<1\"12", uh,I do
    that ,ah, ah--Well, I think he's st2.Y there
    until . uh"uh they pick , uh, until I, uh
    /
    . rll try
    to his successor 1'!lthin 2. reason2.ble tine.
    But you what I mean 2.nd you, you do know
    that. But he shouldn't just for this.
    I've r eally discovered but I
    don't think he should nut out a story about his
    version of.' it. Yeah. :fe said, nm'! let IT'.e see.
    No, he s avs no. said, I'm uh, he said this is
    a neWSp2.Der on which I'm not
    gonna c om.rnent on a ne\vspaper story (unintel-
    liRible). I've asked, I' ve asked to tes tify
    before the Gr2.nd Jury and tha t's what he
    do. Bye (nhone slams). It isn't much better.
    Let's 8et the God dasn f2.cts to the Gr2.nd Jury.
    I think you'd better tell :Srvin. Henry Kissenr-;er 's
    w2.iting to see you. you see hin later?
    (unintelli Gible) y ou can't see him tonight
    (unintelli Gible) .
    All right, I'll see hin but it h2.s to be in the
    morning ah, see what time.
    I'll schedule him 8:30 in the sir. Rer.eLbep
    you have to meet i'li th (u...'"1intelligible) at nine.
    Yeah, 8:30, if, if it isn't urGent.
    Th2.t's what he said, he said, uh, (unintelligible)
    Dean's (unintelligible) so ...
    8:30 in the fine, tell him I'll see hie
    at 8:30 in the before I So to Florida_
    Yell you tell Ehrlichrnan it's be, gott2. be
    (unintelli[.ible). Uh, ch2.nr-e,
    Gray's gonna change. I just
    don't think we can have I don't
    want Gr2.Y's of to cone out
    in direct conflict with
    what I'n 2.bout, that's just, that's
    just if 'cause. uh,
    we can't wait for
    APRIL 26, 1973, FnmT 3: 59 TO 0: 03
    p
    J " ...
    EALDS'Ti\i-l : Hhat is Gray e;onna say?
    PRSSIDE;\T: As of nm'l flab? Ee just S2.ys, " I'r.1 canna get out
    of here before the Gr2.nd Jury. ,:
    u:rIDSNTIFIED: (Unintell igible)
    PRESIDENT : (Unint ellit;ible) 1'ih2.t? ':!h2.t he's f::cnna say to t!1e
    Grand Jury nm'!, is t!':.at ,uh first that, uh. he, uh.
    cane over to office and ah, John .
    Dean handed a pack of quote
    "hi ghly senGi ti va national security Darers." .
    National security?
    PRESIDENT:. National security, sensit ive . That had
    nothing to ' do with the HaterS2.te and
    they should not see the lirht of day, they
    be in, uh ..
    (Unint elligible)
    PRESIDENT: ... the, uh, FBI files. took he then would
    say that, that ah hef:2.thered that, that , u h
    (unintelli[ible) the:v should be uh, the:: should
    be, uh, destroyed. I think that \'las an inter::>retati.c!:1.
    (unintelli gible) .
    EALDEYAN: Plus that's innocent.
    PRESIDEHT: That he made. the mistake but he says the
    idea they souldn't see the lifht of the
    national security the n it should be very well
    interpreted. Also.!1e says they don't feel that
    he's guilty of a (17 second pause).
    Plus Ervin's, uh, vrhat r.e saie. earlier about these,
    he was there, he heard obstruction
    of justice. 'I'hen he' 11 SCJ.y T'aDerS uere
    delivered early and statAd there was never
    intention of them 2nd he discussed this.
    uh, Hith he l'lCtS 2:mazed he
    heard they had (pause).
    EALD!:::f1AH: That ' s true.
    (Pause)
    APRIL 26, 1973, 3: 50 TO 9: 03 P . M.
    U::I D::: UTIPIED:
    PR::: SIDE?J T:
    UIl IDEN'l'IFIED:
    PRESIDEUT:
    EALDsrLA.N:
    PRESIDEnT:
    PR::;:SIDE!!T:
    PrtESIDENT:
    )
    ('Gause )
    do hi s l a wy ers say about that?
    (Unintelli f, ibl e )
    I sunno s e thev had to say tha t, that's as far
    as
    Hell ..
    Be sure to get him on that because wh?t
    we have to do now is c a ll Pe t e rsen in. He's
    the one [;uy ':,hos e "C\.J,n-in-ce llfi,ible) advised there
    were no paoers r e l at inG to and
    (un int e l lizible ) can' t r.ake a c ase and say there ' s
    been any obstruction (unintelliGible )' .... '
    At that point .
    ... concerning the case of Gray's defense.
    :If it was apparent. He told me he left wires
    other kind of cran , he should have
    it (unintelligible).
    I think if they're subpoenaed, should he VO
    (unintelligible) and that I told him to this.
    (Pause) Kell uh, \'1e should, uh, and then we should kn:::u
    'cause I, I, I knoH that, I knml that, I den' t !'!lean
    now. 3ut, I l e t me y6u the, the
    . arzur:!ent for resir:nat::!. e n (unintelliF,ible) leave
    for now (unintelli s ible) Ehrlichr:!an's Fonna be
    on and , uh,Saker asked (uni nte l -
    lit-ible). It does n't make aDY difference
    nOH. '='!1e ?residcnt feels (unintellicible) t'rit h o u t
    (unintellicible) why the President
    than t!1e Grand Jury signs that. In other
    (unintellisible), Gr<->.nd Jury bec2_use the
    aBainst (unintelli r ible), way to do
    it In view, whether it
    should involve the , the leave of absence, it
    seens to it c arry the standpoint of
    frankly (unintell lrib1c) that way we could Uhf I
    think prepare you for (unintellisible) with John.

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