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CNN LATE EDITION WITH WOLF
Law
BLITZER
Technology
Science & Space Interview With Lt. Gen. Raymond Odierno;
Health Interview With President of Vietnam
Entertainment
Offbeat
Aired June 24, 2007 - 11:00 ET
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WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: It's 11 a.m. here in
I-Reports Washington, 8 a.m. in Los Angeles, 4 p.m. in London and 7 p.m. in Baghdad. Wherever you're watching from aroun
the world, thanks very much for joining us for "Late Edition."
The new U.S.-led military offensive in Iraq is taking the fight to insurgents, but it's been another very deadly week fo
E-mails U.S. forces. Indeed, 81 U.S. troops have been killed so far in June. Joining us now to discuss this and more,
RSS Democratic Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon, he's a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, and Republican
Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison of Texas. As part of the Senate GOP leadership, she chairs the Republican Policy
Podcasts
Committee.
Mobile
CNN Pipeline Senators, welcome back to "Late Edition." Always good to have both of you on the program. Senator Wyden, I'll sta
with you. I want to play a little clip of what the outgoing chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Peter Pace, s
this week about the increasing number of U.S. troop casualties.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GENERAL PETER PACE, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: It is our expectation that this surge is going to
result in more contact, and therefore, more casualties.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Is that acceptable to you?
SEN. RON WYDEN (D), OREGON: It isn't. Look, we're just not making the progress we need for a national
reconciliation there. We are not going to get a military settlement. And if you look at every objective measure, if you
look at the fact they haven't passed the oil law. They are not making progress and bringing the Baathists back to
government. We don't know how reconstruction money is being spent.
What we've really seen is a surge of overly wishful rhetoric. And I think we've now got a blizzard of reports coming.
Thee are going to be four of them starting in the middle of June. They're all going to show the same thing: We're no
making the progress we need from a political standpoint. It's time to start bringing our people home.
BLITZER: I've interviewed Senator Mitch McConnell, the Republican leader in the Senate, several times in recent
weeks. And he's increasingly frustrated. He's angry at the Iraqi government of Prime Minister Nouri al
doing what Senator Wyden and others want him to do: Do those political acts that the U.S. needs in order for the Ir
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to take charge.
SEN. KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON (R), TEXAS: Well, of course I think we all want the Iraqi government to do more,
more successful, but I do think...
BLITZER: You are not satisfied with what they are doing?
HUTCHISON: I'm not satisfied. I am really on a different approach than even we are doing now. I think we should b
encouraging them, working with the other countries in the region to have semiautonomous regions, states where th
can stabilize and have an economy.
BLITZER: Three partitioned areas of Iraq, which is what Senator Biden, Senator Brownback, others have called for
basically dividing it up into a Kurdish, a Shia and a Sunni zone.
HUTCHISON: Well, I tell you you would have to have more than three. You'd have the Kurdish zone and the Shia z
in the south, but in the middle I think you would have to have more because it is more mixed.
I've done an op-ed also on this subject. And I think that's the direction we should be going politically, not us dictatin
but they've already...
BLITZER: Just to be precise, you want one Iraq but three separate autonomous areas, is that what you are saying?
HUTCHISON: Yes. I think you should allow them, sort of in the Bosnian model, when you let them live with their ow
and get some stability in the country...
BLITZER: Well, Bosnia and Herzegovina and the other former republics of Yugoslavia are all independent.
HUTCHISON: Well, that's exactly right, but that happened because they found their own after just mass genocide.
BLITZER: What do you think of that idea of partitioning Iraq?
WYDEN: I'm willing to consider it, but it's getting late in the day. The fact of the matter is, Prime Minister al
continually denies the facts.
For example, he told Deputy Secretary of State Negroponte recently that sectarian warfare was over. And then we
the attack on the mosque in Samarra. So it's time to focus on reality. That means addressing those benchmarks tha
have been laid out for real progress. And I think Prime Minister Maliki is still in denial on these issues.
BLITZER: The Saudi foreign minister, Prince Saud al-Faisal, said this on CNN this week about how much longer th
U.S. should stay in Iraq. Listen to what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRINCE SAUD AL-FAISAL, FOREIGN MINISTER OF SAUDI ARABIA: When they are there, I mean, how can they
leave without leaving the country in a better condition than what they found it?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: All right, it may not be a good situation right now, but what's your answer to the Saudi foreign minister?
WYDEN: My answer, Wolf, is that the National Intelligence Estimate, the public one, says our policies are creating
more jihadists there rather than fewer. I think what we ought to do is get out of the business of trying to referee a ci
war in Iraq, and we ought to strike Al Qaida, particularly in the Sunni areas and Afghanistan, what is really called th
pull and strike kind of option.
Get out of the Baghdad area, this question of going house to house, and focus on Al Qaida.
BLITZER: Do you agree?
HUTCHISON: No. I really don't. I don't think you can separate our interests there and just say, well, it's a mess. It's
civil war, so we leave. I think that would be the worst thing we could do for Congress, especially, to set a timetable
to leave without regard to what's going on on the ground.
This is a war on terror. This is trying to keep terrorism from spreading all over the world in a much worse way than i
now.
BLITZER: Do you buy that argument that if the U.S. leaves Iraq now without destroying Al Qaida in Iraq, they're sim
going to have that as a base from which they can then come here and attack the United States?
WYDEN: Wolf, we're going to change our mission. We're not going to do the heavy lifting primarily just on the milita
side. We are going to go after Al Qaida relentlessly, particularly in those Sunni areas and Afghanistan.
We're also going to protect our assets there. We're going to be involved in training the Iraqis. But as long as the Ira
can use our incredibly courageous soldiers as a crutch, they are not going to make the judgments politically to form
nation.
And I just don't think a military solution is going to work. The American people don't think a military solution is going
work. And I think we are going to have a bipartisan majority in the United States Senate in these upcoming votes fo
specific deadline to start bringing our people home.
BLITZER: Do you agree? HUTCHISON: We cannot look like we are just putting our tail between our legs and going
home without regard to the promises we've made, the commitments we've made. Should we push the Iraqi
government? Absolutely. But to just leave regardless of what's happening on the ground, set a deadline, in fact, I th
that would put our troops more in harm's way.
BLITZER: Well, the argument is that there is no incentive on the Iraqis to use their military, their police force to go o
there, hunt down these insurgents, these foreign fighters, as they're called, as long as the U.S. is doing the job for
them.
HUTCHISON: Well, I think we need to push them harder. I think we need to have more realistic possibilities for them
And, Wolf, I think we need more help from the region. I think to have the Saudi minister there suggest that we shou
leave without a better Iraq suggests that the Saudis and the Jordanians and the Egyptians and others in the area
should be stepping up and helping to solve this. It's in everyone's interest.
BLITZER: I'm going to be speaking live in Baghdad later this hour with Lieutenant General Raymond Odierno, the
number two U.S. commander in Iraq. But I want you to listen, Senator Wyden, to what he said earlier this week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LT. GEN. RAYMOND ODIERNO, U.S. ARMY: I believe, if you ask me today, I think by the spring or earlier, they wi
ready to take on a larger portion of their security. Which means, I think, potentially, we could have a decision to red
our forces.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: He's referring to Iraqi security forces potentially taking on more of the responsibility. Some have suggest
he is way, way too optimistic in painting that scenario right now. And even David Petraeus, the overall U.S.
commander, today suggested he wouldn't go that far. But what do you think?
WYDEN: Wolf, I always root for our troops. But the fact is, in 2005 we had generals in the Bush administration sayi
that. In 2006, same thing. In 2007. We've had multiple surges.
What this is again is a surge of wishful rhetoric. I hope they're right. I wish General Petraeus well.
But the fact is nobody is talking about turning tail and running. We are relentlessly going to focus on counterterroris
we're going to protect our assets, we're going to be training Iraqis. We are not going to be taking the lead in referee
a civil war.
And I think we'll have the votes in the Senate.
BLITZER: We're going to take a quick break. I want to move the subject to immigration reform. Both of you are dee
involved in that, but one quick question. You're on the Intelligence Committee.
Without sharing with us any classified information, is there anything that you've learned, anything you've been told
the highest-ranking intelligence officials who study this on a day-to-day basis that gives you any hope that there's g
to be a resolution, a victory, if you will, in Iraq?
WYDEN: Of course I'm hopeful. But our intelligence in Iraq is still not good enough. You see particularly the insurge
just moving from one area to another. They are constantly in advance of our courageous troops. So we're going to
to do a better job of intelligence-gathering in that region, too.
BLITZER: All right, I'll take that as you haven't gotten that upbeat assessment yet.
WYDEN: To me, a victory is bringing about stability in the region. That's not going to be military; it's going to be pol
And Maliki isn't delivering that.
BLITZER: All right, Senators, stand by because we're going to make the turn to immigration reform. Lots going on.
could be a make or break week, the coming days in the Senate as far as immigration is concerned.
We'll also get their take on Vice President Dick Cheney. He's taking heat for not following his own administration's
oversight rules. What's going on on that front?
Then, U.S. and Iraqi troops in a new crackdown against insurgents. We'll get a live report from the commander of th
Multi- National Corps in Iraq, Lieutenant General Raymond Odierno. He's standing by in Baghdad.
And later, will Michael Bloomberg be the third New Yorker to enter the presidential race? We'll dish the week's polit
with CNN's Bill Schneider, Elaine Quijano and Joe Johns. They are part of the best political team on television.
You're watching "Late Edition," the last word in Sunday talk.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back to "Late Edition." I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up later this hour, my exclusive interview with Vietnam's president.
And in our next hour, three top Middle East diplomats weigh in on the Palestinian power struggle and its impact in t
Middle East and U.S. policy in the region.
But first, let's continue our conversation with Democratic Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon, and Republican Senator K
Bailey Hutchison of Texas. The comprehensive immigration package is expected to be make or break this week in
U.S. Senate. Are you going to support it or are you going to vote against it?
HUTCHISON: Well, we haven't seen the full bill yet.
BLITZER: As it stands right now, what's your inclination?
HUTCHISON: Well, I don't like what's in it now. I think the amnesty, the cutoff after five years of the guest worker
program is, I think, completely unworkable.
BLITZER: The president denies this is amnesty. He says this is making those 12 million or so illegal immigrants
giving them an opportunity to have some legalized status, but they have fines to pay, they have to jump over some
hurdles. And he insists that is not amnesty. You disagree with the president?
HUTCHISON: I do, because I think that if we're going to have a unified system that applies to everyone, whether it'
the future or now, you have to have at least a return home provision so that people can get legal from outside our
country and come into the process. I do think we have to deal with the 12 million or so. We have to do that and the
president is right in that point.
BLITZER: So if the vote were now, you'd vote against it? I assume your other colleague from Texas, Senator Corny
with you on this, and both Texans would be against a fellow Texan, namely George W. Bush?
HUTCHISON: Well, I hope we can find a way to do the right thing, to secure our border and to have a guest worker
program going forward, and I think we can do it without amnesty, which is what I've been trying to do, Wolf.
WYDEN: The first big vote is going to be Tuesday, and that's a question on something called cloture. The typical
American doesn't know what the means.
BLITZER: To allow debate to continue.
WYDEN: To allow debate to continue, and if cloture passes -- and I'm going to vote for that -- there would be allowe
BLITZER: That would be to limit the debate.
WYDEN: But it would allow about 25 amendments, so we'll have a long discussion. I want an immigration policy tha
tough, practical and fair. Seems to me we have to do a better job of securing the borders. This new approach is goi
to provide about $4 billion for technology. It's going to provide additional money for fencing. So it would be a lot mo
the area of border security.
Then we need to do a better job enforcing the laws in our own books, and then finally we need to address this ques
of what do you do for American business where they can't find workers at any price where they can stay in busines
That's already in agriculture.
BLITZER: But your inclination would be to support it?
WYDEN: I want to support moving ahead. That's the Tuesday vote. Then, it seems to me, we have to address the
question of what to do about the 12 million people who are here in this country.
It seems to me when you break the law -- and I was always raised this way -- you ought to have to face a penalty.
There are going to be penalties here. There are going to be fines. There are going to be sanctions.
But then we ought to talk about what is practical. And if somebody faces a penalty and a fine, and other than comin
here initially illegally has been a good citizen, I personally would be allowed to let them go to the end of the line
the beginning of the line -- to go through the process of citizenship.
BLITZER: And at least have a pathway to citizenship.
WYDEN: Right.
BLITZER: Let's talk about President Bush's veto of the embryonic stem cell legislation that was passed in the Sena
I'm going to play a little clip of what the president said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: I made it clear to Congress and to the American people that I will not allow our
nation to cross this moral line. Last year, Congress passed a similar bill. I kept my promise by vetoing it, and today
keeping my word again. I'm vetoing the bill that Congress has sent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Did the president, Senator Hutchison, do the right thing in vetoing this federal funding for embryonic stem
cell research?
HUTCHISON: Well, Wolf, I support embryonic stem cell research and this is why: I think that...
BLITZER: So you think he did the wrong thing?
HUTCHISON: I do. I mean, I'm consistent here because I think we can take the embryos that are created that
otherwise are going to be discarded -- these are not embryos that will ever become live human beings. They are go
to be discarded because the people who produced them are no longer going to have them.
I think to take the embryos with very strict requirements for making sure that you can't create one to destroy it, to ta
those and put them into research that has so many possibilities to cure diseases is the right thing to do.
BLITZER: I assume you agree?
HUTCHISON: Kay's analysis is spot on. I think the president made a huge mistake. It's going to mean a lot of our b
scientists go overseas, and particularly it's going to deny hope to those who are suffering, those with Parkinson's,
Alzheimer's. That's wrong.
BLITZER: Your colleague, Dianne Feinstein, a Democrat of California, was on Fox News Sunday earlier today railin
against the vice president, Dick Cheney, for suggesting he's not bound by some of these rules in the executive bran
because he's also the president of the Senate, so he's not really a member of the executive branch. He sort of span
both the legislative and executive branch. Listen to Senator Feinstein.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN, D-CALIF.: In my view, this is the height of arrogance: "I, the vice president, don't have
abide by any law, any act of Congress or any executive order, particularly" -- and I serve on the Intelligence Comm
and have for a long time, "the laws as it relates to intelligence." And I find this just amazing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Were you surprised by this interpretation that the vice president had that would disqualify him, as oppose
everyone else in the executive branch, from following certain rules dealing with protected classified information?
HUTCHISON: Well, I think that the vice president does have a foot in both camps. I don't agree with everything the
president does, but I think that you have to have some balance here.
I think there should be some ability for a president or a vice president to have meetings that are private. I think som
should be public, some should be private. I think we just have to have the right balance.
BLITZER: Senator?
WYDEN: The vice president is saying he's above the law. And the fact of the matter is, legal scholars are going to s
this is preposterous. The idea that because once in awhile you show up in the Senate to handle a debate that you'r
not part of the executive branch is flat-out wrong. They've had a lot of e-mails, for example, disappear. They ought
comply with the law.
BLITZER: Senators...
HUTCHISON: Well, I don't think that the vice president, with all due respect to everyone, is saying that the law doe
apply to him or that he is above the law. I think there are some legal interpretations. We have to look at those, but I
don't think he is saying, "I'm above the law or nothing applies to me."
BLITZER: What he's saying is that there's a certain law involving everybody in the executive branch that doesn't ap
to him. That's what he's suggesting.
HUTCHISON: Well, he does have some legislative responsibilities, but I'm not saying that he is right. I don't know
enough of the details yet, but I do think we're just, it seems like, having investigations and every time I get up in the
morning it's another investigation, somebody trying to tear down the administration. And I think we need to try to wo
this out together.
BLITZER: Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, Senator Ron Wyden, thanks to both of you for joining us.
WYDEN: Thank you.
BLITZER: And coming up, the man who's second in command of U.S. forces in Iraq, Lieutenant General Raymond
Odierno. We'll get his assessment of Operation Phantom Thunder. That's the new U.S. military offensive against
insurgents. He's standing by to join us live in Baghdad.
And later, the U.S. and its Arab allies are behind Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas. But is he up to t
challenge of governing without Hamas? We'll talk to three top diplomats.
Stay with "Late Edition." We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
We'll be talking to Lieutenant General Raymond Odierno, the day- to-day operations commander in Iraq in just a
moment or so.
But first, let's go to Hala Gorani. She's in Baghdad. She has an update on the genocide trial, as it's being called, of
infamous "Chemical Ali."
Hala, what happened today?
HALA GORANI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Once one of the most feared men in Iraq, Wolf, Ali Hassan al
was being tried for charges of war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide alongside other defendants. He w
sentenced to death by hanging.
Now, this relates to the Anfal campaign in 1988 when poisonous gas and other chemical weapons were used again
the Kurdish population because the regime of Saddam Hussein felt they were cooperating with Iran. Saddam Huss
was originally one of the defendants in this trial but the charges against him lapsed because, of course, he was
executed last December.
Now, when "Chemical Ali" heard the ruling against him, sentencing him to death, he remained calm. He muttered tw
"Thank God" under his breath and that was it. The other defendants, some of them objected to the charges and to
sentencing. Now, the legal team of "Chemical Ali" and the other defendants told CNN they plan to appeal the verdic
and called the proceedings political.
But if the appeals are rejected, Wolf, then these men who were sentenced to death today could be hanged at any t
Back to you.
BLITZER: All right, Hala, thanks very much. Hala Gorani reporting for us from Baghdad. Coming up next, despite a
military clampdown, insurgents in Iraq are hitting back and they're hitting back hard. We'll talk about that and a lot m
with the commander of the Multi-National Corps in Iraq, Lieutenant General Raymond Odierno. He's standing buy l
Then, the leader of Vietnam welcomed to the White House for the first time since the Vietnam War. History was ma
in Washington this week. My exclusive interview with the Vietnamese president, Nguyen Minh Triet, on warmer
relations with the U.S. and a lot more.
All that coming up right here on "Late Edition."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: It's called Operation Phantom Thunder, the newest U.S.- led military offensive against insurgent strongh
in Iraq. But this week's death toll of U.S. forces signals just how tough this fight is right now.
Joining us in Baghdad, the number two U.S. and coalition commander in Iraq, Lt. Gen. Raymond Odierno. General
thanks very much for coming in and joining us here on "Late Edition."
I want to start off by letting you clarify, if you can, some of the remarks you made earlier in the week which caused
when you suggested U.S. forces might be able to start withdrawing from Iraq maybe as early as the spring. What
exactly do you have in mind?
ODIERNO: Well, what I said was first is that we'll make a decision in September or so. I'll make a recommendation
And one of the recommendations will be how much longer do coalition forces have to remain.
And a lot of that has to do with the ability of the Iraqi security forces as well as the progress that we are making with
security. And what I said is if the Iraqi security forces continue to improve and we are successful, there's a potentia
we could with draw by the spring.
But I said we have not made that decision yet. And there's a lot of water that has to go under the bridge between no
and then. And so, that's really what I meant to say. And that is actually what I did say.
BLITZER: Right. The big question though, and that's a huge if, if the Iraqi security forces continue to improve and a
willing to engage, to step up to the fight and deal with the insurgents, deal with Al Qaida in Iraq.
Do you see evidence, strong evidence that the Iraqis have the will, the political capability, the military capability to d
that and that in turn would allow the U.S. to start withdrawing?
ODIERNO: I think what I do see is I do see the Iraqi army improving every day. I do see them fighting alongside us
sometimes independently here in Baghdad and the surrounding areas.
They are staying and fighting. They are taking casualties. They have a system in place to replace those casualties.
We're seeing those, that capacity that is needed in the ministry of defense starting to improve.
They are nowhere near where they need to be yet. But they are beginning to improve. The issue becomes how far
along will they be and how much will they be able to take over when we're prepared to turn it over to them?
Part of that is us working together to eliminate these threats or reduce these threats. Al Qaida as well as the Shia
extremist piece of this insurgency.
BLITZER: The fact, though, is that the death toll on U.S. troops remains very high, what, 81 this month already, 3,5
killed so far since the start of the war. General Barry McCaffrey, a retired four- star Army general, was quoted in Th
Washington Post as saying this on Saturday. He said, "Why would we think that a temporary presence of 30,000
additional combat troops in a giant city would change the dynamics of a bitter civil war? it's a fool's errand."
Very strong words from General McCaffrey, a man I'm sure you know and respect. What do you say to him?
ODIERNO: Well, first off, it's not just 30,000 U.S. troops. Iraqi security forces continue to grow. Iraqi police continue
grow. So it's a much higher number than that that are dealing with this threat.
So it's just not U.S. forces, although we play a large role in it. The other thing is that I question the comment about
all-out civil war. I don't see that. I do see sectarian violence in some cases, but it's not all over the country. There ar
elements of sectarian violence that occur in Baghdad, but not all throughout Baghdad.
So we have to continue to work with that, and we will, against it. So his comment of all-out civil war I don't agree wi
do agree with that there is sectarian violence. I do agree with that the growth of coalition forces as well as the grow
Iraqi security forces is required in order to deal with this current threat.
BLITZER: Why is the U.S. now arming Sunni militias in the Al Anbar Province?
ODIERNO: Well, first off, we're not arming anybody. What we are doing is, we are reaching out to them and bringin
them across to work with us. As I tell all my commanders, I'd much rather have them shooting at Al Qaida than sho
at coalition forces.
They want to join us to fight Al Qaida. So let them point their guns at Al Qaida and not coalition forces. As they do t
and as we come to agreement with them, what we do is we bring them along as part of the government of Iraq secu
forces. In Al Anbar, all of those forces that have joined us are now members of the ministries of the interior police fo
BLITZER: Here is what the prime minister, though, of Iraq said about this strategy of trying to beef up these Sunni
former insurgents, if you will, in the Al Anbar Province and presumably Diyala and other provinces as well. Nouri Al
Maliki told Newsweek magazine, "Some field commanders make mistakes since they do not know the facts about
people they deal with. They make mistakes by arming tribes sometimes, and this is dangerous because this will cre
new militias."
He seems to disagree with this strategy.
ODIERNO: I think he's come out since then, actually, in the last couple of days here, he has come out and said how
is reaching out and developing a reconciliation committee himself, and he is absolutely involved in this and wants th
to occur. And again, I will say is, we are not arming these individuals. Many have arms already.
And what we're now doing is having them work with us in order to fight Al Qaida. So I think under that context, he's
comfortable with it. He's also comfortable with it as long as they become part of the legitimate Iraqi security forces.
as we go along in this process, that's one of the things that we want them to become is part of the legitimate Iraqi
security force.
BLITZER: Well, let me just be precise, General, because I want to make sure our viewers completely understand. W
you are saying is these Sunni tribesmen who used to be fighting the U.S., now they're fighting Al Qaida, and you're
bringing them formally into the Iraqi military, and at that point they get the arms. Is that what you are suggesting?
ODIERNO: What I'm saying is, yeah, there's two things. First, not all of them were fighting coalition forces. Some w
There were others that were just passably neutral in the tribes.
So you have some that are passively neutral. You have some that were fighting Al Qaida. But they've all decided n
they are tired of Al Qaida. They're rejecting Al Qaida. They reject all the brutality, the intimidation that's occurred on
their families. And they want to become part of the force here that fights Al Qaida.
They also agree to, once they agree to do that, and we encourage them to do that, they then come along and they
become part of the government of Iraq security forces. They have to do a few things to do that. They have to renou
violence against the government of Iraq. They have to renounce violence against the coalition, and they have to ple
their allegiance to the government of Iraq. And they will sign documents to do that. If they do that, they then becom
part of the Iraqi security force structure.
BLITZER: And at that point you do arm them, is that right?
ODIERNO: Well, we would then go through a training program and the government of Iraq training program, and w
would then provide them training and arms and uniforms and equipment then to become part of the normal security
forces.
BLITZER: What should we expect in mid-September when General Petraeus and the U.S. ambassador in Baghdad
Ray Crocker, when they go ahead and they make their report to the U.S. about what the next steps should be?
Because some people are now suggesting this is going to be simply a snapshot, it's not necessarily going to be a h
and fast rule.
ODIERNO: Well, I think what they have to do is they're going to make an assessment. They are going to make
General Petraeus will make a military assessment. Ryan Crocker will make a political assessment.
And then based on that, they will present some recommendations. Now I would say, I don't think they are ready to
that yet. You know, September is 60 days away or so. A lot happens over here in Iraq in 60 days. I feel like we are
building some momentum over here, momentum of change both within the government of Iraq and on the ground,
we'll see.
I mean, that could change very quickly. But what we have to be able to do is provide recommendations on whether
think we are making enough progress to continue in the direction we are going, or we are not making progress and
have to change our strategy. And I think that's fundamentally what we're going to have to do. And that's what will be
up to General Petraeus and Ryan Crocker, and I will provide them my assessment as we get closer to that point.
BLITZER: Raymond Odierno is the number two U.S. commander in Iraq. Ryan Crocker is the U.S. ambassador in I
General, thanks very much for coming in. Good luck to you and all the men and women you command in Iraq.
ODIERNO: Thank you so much.
BLITZER: Coming up next, my interview with Vietnam's president, Nguyen Minh Triet. He's the first Vietnamese he
of state to visit Washington since the end of the Vietnam war. You're going to hear what he has to say about the leg
of that war and the future of the relationship between the U.S. and Vietnam.
And later, the immigration battle. A potentially make-or-break week coming up in the Senate. We'll talk about it with
best political team on television. Stay with us. You're watching "Late Edition," the last word in Sunday talk.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back to "Late Edition."
History was made in Washington this week when President Bush warmly welcomed the president of Vietnam to the
White House. I spoke with President Nguyen Minh Triet during his Washington visit.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Mr. President, thanks very much for joining us. Welcome to the United States.
Let's start with your meetings with President Bush. Were you satisfied with the conversation you had with the U.S.
president?
PRES. NGUYEN MINH TRIET, VIETNAM (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): I was very satisfied with the conversation,
the meeting with President Bush. We have exchanged views on many issues that are very useful to both sides, and
the spirit of mutual understanding.
BLITZER: What's the most important part of the relationship between your country and the United States right now?
TRIET (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): The most important part in our relations right now is to further develop our
friendship and cooperation.
BLITZER: There seems to be, though, one impediment, one major problem, and that's the U.S. charge that you are
abusing human rights of your own people in Vietnam. President Bush said he raised that issue with you today. How
that part of the conversation go?
TRIET (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): We did have a direct and open exchange of views on this matter. I think that t
United States and Vietnam, different histories, have different legal systems, and that's why it's natural that we have
certain different perceptions on different things.
BLITZER: Did the president of the United States raise specific cases with you, individuals, names of people the Un
States feels are -- their human rights are being violated in Vietnam?
TRIET (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): We have agreed that this is a matter that we would exchange views between
not to divulge to the outside. BLITZER: Because I ask that specific question, because the president at June 5th
conference on democracy and security, a conference that he had in Prague, he did mention one specific name, Fa
Nguyen Van Ly of Vietnam, someone that he said -- he included within a group of others around the world whose
human rights were being violated.
TRIET (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): Reverend Nguyen Van Ly was brought to court because of these violations of
law. It absolutely is not a matter of religion.
BLITZER: I'm going to show you a picture that was seen around the world, and it caused a lot of concern, especiall
here in the United States. You're probably familiar with this picture.
TRIET (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): Yes, I do know this picture. During the trial, Reverend Ly also uttered violent a
bad words at his trial. And that is why you have seen on the picture what happened.
I can assure that to cover somebody's mouth like that is not good. It would take a good measure in order to take ca
this matter. And this is a mistake make staff right there. It's not the government policy of doing such a thing.
BLITZER: I want to move on to some other subjects, but one final question on the dissidents, the human rights part
the eve of your visit here, you released two prisoners, two political prisoners, as they are described. There are at le
another half a dozen, if not more, who are being held. Do you think others will be released anytime soon, including
Father Nguyen Van Ly?
TRIET (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): Those violators of the law, they were put away because of their violations.
And whether they are released depending on the attitude and the perceptions of what wrong they have done.
I would like to tell you that Vietnam has experienced long years of war, and during that period, Vietnamese people
not enjoy full human rights. Many of us were arrested, were put into prison, tortured, without recourse to the court. W
conducted the liberation war in order to regain our human rights.
And therefore, more than anybody else, we love human rights, and we respect them. Perhaps you cannot truly
understand or sense how much we hold in high regard human rights.
BLITZER: I don't know if you're aware that, outside of the White House, when you were there with the president, th
were some demonstrations, Vietnamese-Americans who are concerned.
I wonder if you have any message to the Vietnamese-American community who remain very fiercely proud of their
Vietnamese heritage, but also would like to see the situation in Vietnam improve, and that's why many of them wer
demonstrating here outside the White House.
TRIET (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): Our message is that the Vietnamese living abroad, in general, and in the Unite
States in particular, is part and parcel of the Vietnamese nation. The blood they have is the blood of the Vietnames
The flesh they have is the flesh of the Vietnamese.
The government of Vietnam wants to see them succeed in the United States, and we also would like to see them to
serve as a bridge between the United States and Vietnam. As far as our differences in views and opinion, we shoul
exchange dialogues in order to solve those differences. We invite them to come back to visit Vietnam in order to se
with their own eyes our changes, our improvements.
BLITZER: Let me ask you a question, Mr. President, about the Americans unaccounted for still in Southeast Asia.
According to the Defense Department, the U.S. Defense Department, 483 American troops are still unaccounted fo
what was called North Vietnam; another 882 in South Vietnam, about 1,365.
I know this issue came up with the president at your meeting at the White House, and he thanked you for your help
I wonder if you had any new information to provide on missing American troops in Vietnam.
TRIET (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): In past years, Vietnam had active cooperation with the United States in MIA
related issues. We do that out of humanitarian cause. And Vietnam will continue to cooperate with the United State
solving these matters.
BLITZER: But you have no new information about specific cases, no more remains that you found recently, any oth
information on missing in action, POWs, anything like that?
TRIET (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): I don't have specific data on this matter.
BLITZER: But as the president of Vietnam, can you assure the American people that your government is doing
everything possible to find out what happened to these American troops?
TRIET (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): Absolutely, 100 percent. The government of Vietnam has and is and will be in
cooperation to do its utmost in order to help the United States to account for MIAs. We do this and we do what
everything possible in order to account for American MIAs, while we still have a host of our own MIAs.
BLITZER: There is another issue that came up at your meeting with the president, President Bush, and that involve
the very sensitive matter of Agent Orange. U.S. Congress recently appropriated funds to deal with the fallout from t
very deadly toxin that was used during the war. Are you satisfied with what the United States is doing now to deal w
the remnants of Agent Orange in Vietnam?
TRIET (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): I'm grateful for the efforts made by President Bush and the Congress with reg
to support for Agent Orange and dioxin victims. And at the meeting, I also expressed my thanks to President Bush.
there are many Agent Orange afflicted victims, and their lives are difficult, and the afflicted environments must be
restored.
BLITZER: Does your government right now have a better relationship with the United States government, or the
government of China? TRIET (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): The foreign policy of Vietnam is based on independenc
and self-controlling. And Vietnam wants to be friends with all countries, want to be a reliable partner of other countr
China is a neighboring country with traditional relations with Vietnam. Both China and Vietnam would like to enhanc
our cooperation for development. Cooperative relations between Vietnam and China would not adversarily affect ou
relations with other countries, and we also would like to seek an increase in our friendship and cooperation with the
United States.
BLITZER: So you want to have good relations with the United States and China. I hear a very diplomatic answer.
TRIET (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): No, it's not a diplomatic answer at all, and it is our true desire. That's what we
want.
BLITZER: Mr. President, did you ever think during the war that you would be the president of Vietnam, and that you
would come to the United States and would be warmly received by the president of the United States at the White
House?
TRIET (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): I never thought, even after the war, in capacity of a regular citizen, I wouldn't h
thought of coming -- having a chance to come to visit the United States. And that's why this visit of mine to the Unit
States is historic.
Now, President Bush and I had a good exchange of views on how to further enhance our relations, and both Presid
Bush and I are satisfied with our meeting.
BLITZER: Thank you so much, Mr. President, and welcome to the United States.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: There's must more ahead on "Late Edition," including some breaking news in Lebanon, an attack on Uni
Nations peacekeepers. We'll have a live report. That's coming up at the top of the hour.
Plus, our diplomatic roundtable on the Palestinian crisis and the impact on the Middle East.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: This is "Late Edition," the last word in Sunday talk.
Reversing the Middle East meltdown.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: A vision that speaks to the hopes and aspirations of the Palestinian people and a vision that speaks to the
security of Israel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Israel's U.S. ambassador, Sallai Meridor, Egypt's U.S. ambassador, Nabil Fahmy, and former U.S. Midd
East envoy Dennis Ross on the crisis in Gaza.
Presidential poker.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLOOMBERG: I'm not a candidate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Is New York's mayor playing the joker or does he have a winning hand?
Insight on the race for the White House and more from CNN's Joe Johns, Elaine Quijano and Bill Schneider, part o
best political team on television. The second hour of "Late Edition" begins right now.
Welcome back. We'll talk about the situation in the Middle East with a roundtable of ambassadors in just a moment
First, though, there's breaking news coming in from Lebanon right now, where a unit of Spanish troops serving as U
peacekeepers has been hit. Let's get some specific details on what we know. Our Beirut bureau chief Brent Sadler
standing by on the phone. What do we know, Brent?
BRENT SADLER, CNN BEIRUT BUREAU CHIEF: Thanks, Wolf. Lebanese security sources are saying an IED, an
improvised explosive device, went off as a patrol of uniformed peace keepers made up of Spanish troops were on
operations in the south of the country along that volatile border area between Lebanon and Israel.
At this stage, Wolf, security sources here saying at least two Spanish peacekeepers killed and six injured. There w
secondary explosion after the first detonation. That's when the armored personnel carrier that the Spanish troops w
arriving in went up in smoke and flame. Ammunition exploded, making it a very dangerous area indeed for rescuers
get to.
Now this attack, as it's being articulated by Lebanese security sources, is indeed a grave escalation in the security
situation on the ground coming as it does as Lebanese army troops engage a holdout of Islamic militant remnants i
the north of the country the day after Lebanese government troops killed seven terrorists in a shootout in the northe
city of Tripoli.
And again, this coming attack it seems, although still not confirmed, investigations are under way, this attack comin
after many weeks of intelligence reports that Al Qaida-style groups are escalating in strength in Lebanon and plann
attacks against a variety of targets to try to destabilize this country. Wolf?
BLITZER: I know the numbers are fluid at this point, very early preliminary numbers. The associated press now quo
Lebanese security sources as saying four Spanish United Nations peacekeeping troops have been killed. Four othe
wounded.
But one quick question, Brent, before I let you go. You say there have been intelligence reports that Al Qaida
groups in south Lebanon might be targeting these United Nations forces. Thousands of them have moved in, as ou
viewers remember, in the aftermath of last summer's war in south Lebanon between Israel and Hezbollah.
SADLER: That's right, Wolf, 15,000 U.N. peacekeepers bolstered an existing force that had been here since 1978 a
the war between Israel and Hezbollah last year. But intelligence reports have been pretty frequent here that there h
been some groups who have been caught being questioned by security services here. And they confess to either
having knowledge or knew of people who were plotting to attack the peacekeeping operations in this country. Wolf?
BLITZER: All right, Brent, stand by. We'll be getting back to you as more information becomes available. Elsewhere
the Middle East, Hamas's bloody victory in Gaza has certainly challenged the power balance across the Middle Eas
Tomorrow's hastily called summit between Egypt, Jordan, Israel and the Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud
Abbas underscores all of that.
Last week here on "Late Edition," we spoke with two Palestinians, Ahmed Yusef from Hamas and Saeb Erekat from
Fatah. Those are the two factions that were engaged in bloody battles in Gaza. Joining us today to discuss the futu
this very unstable region, three diplomats with intimate knowledge of the conflict.
Nabil Fahmy is Egypt's ambassador to the United States. Sallai Meridor is Israel's ambassador to the United States
and Dennis Ross is a former U.S. special envoy to the Middle East. He served in both the Clinton and first Bush
administrations. He's also the author of a new book, "Statecraft and How to Restore America's Standing in the Wor
Ambassadors, thanks to all of you for coming in. Let me get your quick reaction, Ambassador Meridor, to what we j
heard from Brent Sadler. This attack on United Nations troops in south Lebanon. What do you make of this?
SALLAI MERIDOR, ISRAELI AMBASSADOR TO U.S.: Well, I think that it is another expression of how volatile the
situation is and the nature of the threat that we're all facing in the Middle East.
BLITZER: But do you have intelligence reports suggesting Al Qaida-affiliated groups in south Lebanon might now b
targeting United Nations peacekeepers?
MERIDOR: I have not yet seen the reports on this very event. But given what I know, I would not exclude that
possibility that Al Qaida seems to have their beginnings in Lebanon. We see what happens in Al Anbar in the north
And that would not exclude they would try to bring now their activities to the south in order to destabilize the region.
BLITZER: Is that consistent, Ambassador Fahmy, with information that you have?
NABIL FAHMY, EGYPT'S AMBASSADOR TO U.S.: I don't have information that's conclusive enough to say that a
direct link to this. And frankly, I'm not one who believes that all conflicts are necessarily linked. But when you have
region like the Middle East where you have volatility among Palestinians and Israelis in Lebanon and in Iraq clearly
frustration and the playing field for those who want to create havoc is widened considerably.
BLITZER: What do you think, Dennis Ross, about this instability, obviously, in Iraq it's very unstable, Gaza, the
Palestinian territories. In Lebanon now it seems to be deteriorating rather rapidly, as well.
DENNIS ROSS, FORMER U.S. MIDDLE EAST ENVOY: Well, obviously, we've seen a conflict in the northern part
the country in Tripoli. And we've seen Fatah Al-Islam, who has members who have gone to Iraq and come back. Th
could be a factor. It could be an Al Qaida presence.
But I also have to tell you, I was on the northern border between Israel and Lebanon a couple of weeks ago, and on
the things I saw was actually Hezbollah flags flying again, which wasn't supposed to be the case. So I'm not sure
exactly what is going on.
We know a week ago today there were two Katyusha rockets fired from southern Lebanon into Israel. That could h
been linked up to what was going on in Lebanon. It could have been an effort to divert attention away from fighting
affecting Palestinians trying to involve Israelis, but it's a reminder apropos of what Nabil was saying, how everything
a sense could come together in a very volatile mix.
BLITZER: Hezbollah denied that it was responsible for those rockets coming into northern Israel.
ROSS: But think about the fact that if you have rockets continuing to come out of Gaza into Israel. Think about the
that if Hamas at some point decides to divert attention away from its own failings within Gaza, which is not a far
possibility, could you have a northern front open up again?
What we've seen today is that the U.N. forces who are there themselves are being targeted now.
BLITZER: And Reuters quoting Hezbollah television in Lebanon right now denying that Hezbollah had anything to d
with this attack on United Nations peacekeepers in south Lebanon. Let's move on to the summit, Ambassador Fahm
that your government is hosting tomorrow in Sharm El Sheikh bringing leaders in from the Palestinian Authority.
Mahmoud Abbas will be there. The Israeli prime minister will be there. Jordan's King Abdullah, obviously President
Mubarak.
President Mubarak said this on Saturday. He said, "We are following closely the fallout from the coup against
Palestinian legitimacy. I reiterate Egypt's support for the Palestinian National Authority and its president, Mahmoud
Abbas."
Has Egypt effectively severed its relationship with Hamas?
FAHMY: No, but, again, our relationship was with the legitimately recognized bodies among Palestinians. What the
president said is consistent with our policy. We have always supported Abu Mazen, and we have always...
BLITZER: Abu Mazen is Mahmoud Abbas, his code name.
FAHMY: ... who is the Palestinian president. And we've supported the policy that he has promoted, which is trying t
achieve a Palestinian state through negotiations with the Israelis. We will continue to have contacts with Hamas, bu
they will be defined by the nature of the theater itself. We cannot ignore the fact there was been a direct challenge
Palestinian legitimacy, which I think is frankly quite tragic.
BLITZER: The Israeli cabinet authorized the transfer of hundreds of millions of dollars in frozen Palestinian funds to
Palestinian Authority now that the President Mahmoud Abbas has taken charge and Hamas is no longer part of tha
government, if you will. The spokesman for the Israeli government said this, David Baker, "These talks," referring to
tomorrow's talks in Egypt, "These talks do not include final status issues, but rather, how the prime minister and the
president of the Palestinian Authority would envision a future Palestinian state."
Are you optimistic that there can be a real revival of the Israeli-Palestinian peace process right now?
MERIDOR: What we want to see is whether against this negative trend in Gaza or development in Gaza that mayb
there is opportunity to try to move things in a positive direction with the moderates among the Palestinians. This is w
we are not just watching the events and saying are we optimistic or pessimistic.
We are trying to take the opportunity that seems to be rising and work with it. And this is why we see high importan
the meeting tomorrow, and this is why our government took today far-reaching steps in trying to move carefully tog
with the leadership of the Palestinians with a Hamas-free, terror-free government now.
Hopefully corruption free government now, to move forward towards creating conditions on the ground that would a
for future negotiations and the creation of a Palestinian state.
BLITZER: But do you think that this president of the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, has the political clout
among his own people to get the job done? Because Hamas, as you know, remains firmly in control of all of Gaza a
has a wide base of support in the West Bank, as well.
MERIDOR: We think that, at the end, it's a matter of Palestinian decision and the Palestinian will. We cannot replac
them in their decisions, nor in what they need to do internally within the Palestinian society.
We, America, other friends in the region, can and should help them as much as possible, but at the end of the day,
should all realize that it is their choice to make and their action to take.
And we all hope that this would be now a strategic choice on the part of the Palestinian Authority and these people
to go back and dance or flirt with to terror, but to take a strategic course for peace. And we would love to be there w
them in order to bring about that peace.
BLITZER: The deposed Palestinian prime minister, Ismail Haniyeh, delivered a fiery speech in Gaza today in which
said "only resistance," which usually is a code word for armed struggle, if you will, "would achieve any results for th
Palestinian people."
I want you to listen to what President Bush said this week at the White House during his meetings with the prime
minister of Israel, Ehud Olmert, referring to Abu Mazen, Mahmoud Abbas, the president of the Palestinian Authority
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: We recognize the president of all the Palestinian people and that's president Abu Mazen who was elected.
the president.
Secondly, we recognize that it was Hamas that attacked the unity government. They made a choice of violence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Is it a wise U.S. strategy effectively to ignore Hamas and simply put all of the U.S. eggs in the Palestinian
Authority's basket, if you will?
ROSS: Look, I think the key is going to be is Fatah prepared now to take the kinds of steps that will restore their ow
credibility among the Palestinian people. They lost an election. They lost an election largely because they lost
credibility. They were seen as being corrupt. They were seen as being detached from the Palestinian needs. They
seen as not delivering.
Now, they're at a point where I believe what's happened in Gaza has been a wake-up call. My own conversations w
a large number of Palestinians in the West Bank a couple of weeks ago suggested to me that they understood if the
didn't get their own act together, if they didn't begin to organize at the grassroots level, if they didn't reach out to the
Palestinian public, what happened in Gaza could well happen in the West Bank, as well.
They understood they're now involved in the struggle for the future of the Palestinian identity. They represent a
national, secular future based on coexistence.
BLITZER: We're going to take a break, but do you think Fatah, which is the ruling political party of the Palestinian
Authority, Mahmoud Abbas' party, the party of the late Yasser Arafat, that this has been a wake-up call for them an
they will get the job done?
ROSS: I think that they have the potential. I think they're going to have to roll up their sleeves. On their own they're
going to have to take steps, and they will need help from the outside.
BLITZER: Very quickly, Ambassador Fahmy, do you agree?
FAHMY: I agree, but I don't think it's a complete answer. I think, frankly, that what was missing from the outset, eve
before the Hamas/Fatah conflict, was a peace process. If we don't have a peace process that provides vision towar
Palestinian state side by side with Israel, you will have frustration and that's the basic failure of the Palestinian
community.
BLITZER: And that's what you're trying to revive tomorrow at Sharm el Sheikh.
FAHMY: And the initial idea of having a summit started, frankly, started even before the coup in Gaza.
BLITZER: Do you think Fatah is up to the job?
MERIDOR: Well, we will watch and we will hope but the proof will be in the pudding.
BLITZER: Diplomatic answer. All right, guys, stand by. We're going to continue this assessment of what is happeni
the Middle East, a very volatile situation.
What about Iran? What role is Iran playing, if any, in the Palestinian territories? That is coming up. Also here on "La
Edition," we'll take a look at the politics of the U.S. presidential campaign. If New York City Mayor Michael Bloombe
runs for president as an independent, which looks possible, who will it hurt? The Democrats of the Republicans?
Three of the best political team on television will discuss that and a lot more, all coming up on "Late Edition," the las
word in Sunday talk.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back to "Late Edition." I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Later this hour, our political panel will as
the increasingly fluid race for the White House.
But, first, more on the chaotic situation in the Middle East. Once again, we're joined by the Egyptian Ambassador N
Fahmy; the former U.S. special envoy to the Middle East, Dennis Ross; and the Israeli ambassador, Sallai Meridor.
Ambassador Fahmy, I'm going to read to you some strong words that Mahmoud Abbas, the president of the Palest
Authority, said this week about Hamas. He said on Wednesday, "There is no dialogue with those murderous terrori
Our main goal is prevent sedition from spreading to the West Bank."
How concerned are you that what's happened in Gaza -- Hamas firmly taking charge in all of Gaza -- could happen
the West Bank as well?
FAHMY: We are concerned. We think it's a very severe derailment of the Palestinian cause. We will push the
Palestinians to talk together under the right circumstances and with respect to the legitimacy of the P.A.
BLITZER: So when President Mubarak meets with the Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas tomorrow,
going to urge them to try to revive a dialogue with Hamas?
FAHMY: Again, at the summit tomorrow, we will work with the Israelis, the Palestinians and the Jordanians on how
support Abu Mazen which we believe short-term is material assets and long-term is peace process.
In terms of the Palestinian-Palestinian dialogue, it has to emerge. But you have to create the right conditions for it t
held. Whether it is done in a bilateral dialogue or whether it is done through elections of the people, that's somethin
the Palestinians to decide. But we will push the Palestinians to unite.
BLITZER: What do you think? Is that something Israel would like to see, Hamas once again being brought into the
framework of a Palestinian government?
MERIDOR: Whoever, I think, wants to see peace in the Middle East should not want to see Hamas coming back in
the Palestinian government because this is a clear moment of choosing between terror on the one hand and
destruction, and peace and hope for the people.
And what we are trying to do now is to work with the Palestinian president, President Abbas, who has made the
statement that you have just mentioned, to make sure these murderous terrorists don't have the day tomorrow, tha
can work with him to prove to the Palestinian people that there is hope, that they can have a hope for a Palestinian
state through steps that need to be taken on the ground that would change their quality of life.
BLITZER: Is it possible, Dennis Ross -- and you've spent a lifetime studying this issue -- to get Hamas to accept the
conditions that Israel, the U.S., the Europeans, the moderate Arab states have called for that would recognize Israe
right to exist, renounce terrorism, accept previous Israeli-Palestinian agreements. Do you think, under any
circumstances, that's realistic?
ROSS: I'm very dubious of that. I think the only circumstance under which Hamas would ever change is if, ironically
Fatah becomes much more competitive. If Fatah is able to remake itself, rebrand itself, in a sense, demonstrate it c
win that competition, politically, socially, economically and strong enough militarily to deter it, then I think you could
certainly see a split within Hamas.
But right now, the essence of Hamas is defined by what they're saying -- not just by what they're doing, but also wh
they're saying. People say, "Well, don't always pay attention to their words." You make a mistake not to pay attentio
their words.
Before we came on the air, you were quoting from Haniyeh and what Haniyeh is saying about resistance. Is the cre
mean, after all, that's what Hamas stands for, Islamic Resistance movement.
BLITZER: There's a sensitive issue involving arms smuggling from Egypt into Gaza. The Jerusalem Post in an edit
wrote on Wednesday, "The first, most urgent task, is to force Egypt to shut down the flow of weapons through its
territory to Hamas. There has been almost no public pressure by Olmert, Bush or European leaders on Egypt to do
though all recognize that Egypt can do much more."
Is that true, that arms are flowing into Gaza through Egypt?
FAHMY: Flowing, no. And let's be realistic about this. First of all, there were weapons in Gaza before the unity
government, before Hamas was elected and when Israel was occupying Gaza. So if you have a demand with eithe
occupation or a conflict, you will have a demand for weapons.
Look at your Mexican border, by the way, which is in between two peaceful states. You can't control the border if
there's a demand. And the border between Egypt and Palestine, there is a security force on one side and nothing o
the other. Nevertheless, the majority of the weapons there do not come from Egypt.
We will do everything we can, but to solve this problem you have to have a peace process and you have to drive
demand. BLITZER: Is that acceptable to you, the position that we just heard from the Egyptian ambassador.
MERIDOR: Well, really, it's what we have seen over the last year, and the strengthening of Hamas had much to do
the fact that Iran could help the Palestinians get arms smuggled. And it's not only arms, by the way; it's explosives
it's people who are going out of Gaza to Tehran to be trained by terror masters.
So we see that as a very serious threat and we hope to be working together with the Egyptians, who are allies in
peace, in order to make sure that this is coming to an end. Because if we want to contain and drawback a Hamas
victory in Gaza, the terror victory in Gaza, we need to make every effort to work together to put a stop to that.
BLITZER: Your foreign minister said this week -- and I'll read it to you -- he said, "The Iranian moves have encoura
what Hamas has done in Gaza. This presents a threat to the Egyptian national security. Gaza is only a stone's thro
away from Egypt." Do you see Iran directly involved in strengthening Hamas and Gaza? FAHMY: Well, the minister
statement is clear and very straightforward. I just wanted to comment on what the ambassador of Israel said. We h
the same objective of creating a stable, secure area in Gaza which ultimately will be part of the Palestinian state.
What I'm arguing is, we need to do more simply than to try to deal with weapons smuggling, whether it is from the s
from Egypt or black market smuggling.
BLITZER: One final question for you, Dennis Ross, comments that former President Jimmy Carter made this week
was quoted as saying this: "That action was criminal. The United States and Israel decided to punish all the people
Palestine and did everything they could to deter a compromise between Hamas and Fatah."
He says there was a moment; there was an opportunity after the Palestinian elections in which Hamas was
democratically-elected, free and fair elections. He was one of the observers. And you acknowledge that those were
and fair elections. Hamas won.
He says there was an opportunity to try to bring Fatah and Hamas together, but he's blaming the U.S. and Israel fo
rejecting that, and in his words, that action was criminal.
ROSS: You know, I have a view about statecraft that it always has to be based on reality-based assessments, not f
based or ideologically-driven assessments.
The fact is, Fatah and Hamas came together in a national unity agreement. There was the Mecca deal. Who was th
one who, in the end, violated that? Who was the one who perpetrated a coup in Gaza?
The military attacks that were carried out in Gaza against Fatah didn't originate over the last few weeks. The tunne
was tunnelled into the Preventative Security headquarters in Gaza -- a place I have been in, which was a fortress
was five or six months in the making which was something that preceded the Mecca deal.
So there was a time when they tried to work out a compromise among themselves. Obviously, it wasn't vetoed by I
or by the United States, and it certainly wasn't vetoed by Egypt.
BLITZER: So you're rejecting what Jimmy Carter said?
ROSS: I'm rejected what he had to say, yes.
BLITZER: We've got to leave it there. Gentlemen, thanks very much for joining us. Ambassador Meridor, Dennis Ro
Ambassador Fahmy, thanks very much to all of you.
Coming up, the power of Vice President Dick Cheney. What impact has he had on the Bush White House? Our pan
tackles that question and much more.
And remember, the candidates for president will be at our CNN YouTube debates. The Democrats face on July 23
South Carolina. The Republicans take the stage September 17 in Florida. Submit your videotape questions at
CNN.com/youtubedebate.
Stay with "Late Edition." We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: You're watching "Late Edition." I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting from Washington.
The actress Lucy Liu is taking on her most challenging role yet. The United Nations Children's Fund special
ambassador just returned from the Democratic Republic of Congo, raising awareness of the plight of those affected
horrible, horrible violence.
I spoke to her Wednesday, World Refugee Day, in "The Situation Room."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: People hear about this, they see the pictures and they wonder what can they do about it? What advice d
you have when you see what's going on? You were just there.
LUCY LIU, UNITED NATION'S CHILDREN'S FUND SPECIAL AMBASSADOR: Well, I think that people should
educate themselves as much as possible, because this is one of the worst humanitarian crises since the Second W
War and it's not something that people talk about very often because it's been going on for so long.
If you go on to UNICEF, their Web site, and you can educate yourself on it and you can also donate money. Even l
change will make a huge difference for these children.
I met people, women and children, who have been raped and who have been so severely violated that one woman
dislocated her leg completely. There are people that have been displaced out of their villages. One woman fled whe
the militia came into loot and witnessed a neighbor of hers who was decapitated.
I mean, these are things that are happening every day, and the people have so little hope. And I know that for child
especially, that they can bounce back so quickly with just a little bit. It's pretty tremendous how children are so
vulnerable yet they have such strength.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: That was Lucy Liu, the actress, doing incredibly important work for UNICEF. Up next on "Late Edition,"
Congress's sinking poll numbers. What's going on? Our political panel getting ready to tackle that and a lot more.
And later, Congressman Luis Gutierrez and former presidential candidate Pat Buchanan faced off this morning ove
pending immigration bill. You're going to hear their war of words in our "In Case you Missed It" segment.
"Late Edition" will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
Bloomberg goes independent. The always independent Ralph Nader hints at another run. Vice President Dick Che
declares independence from the executive branch of the federal government. Some of the hot topics in the political
world this week.
Perfect fodder for the best political team on television. With us here in Washington, our senior political analyst, Bill
Schneider, our correspondent Joe Johns and our White House correspondent, Elaine Quijano.
Elaine, let me start with you. Dick Cheney made this -- at least it became known that he's got this new legal
interpretation that he and his office are not necessarily bound by all the other people in the executive branch of the
government in dealing with protecting classified information because he's also president of the Senate, and as such
he's not strictly an executive branch official.
And that's caused a huge uproar, as you know. But the White House is serious about this.
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the White House is serious about this. I will say this much, wh
Thursday happened and the letter from Chairman Waxman went up to the White House...
BLITZER: Henry Waxman from the House.
QUIJANO: Henry Waxman, that's right. And this was where all of this information was revealed about this sort of le
reasoning. Initially it was difficult to get a clear explanation about what exactly, in fact, the White House position wa
The argument as told to us was that essentially this is a unique role that the office of the vice president has, straddl
both the executive and the legislative branches of government. And as such, not necessarily the same kind of
requirements apply, these reporting requirements.
So, Friday, a lot of questions about this certainly, Dana Perino, the deputy White House press secretary, peppered
questions about this. Reiterating and said at different points, saying, look, when President Bush in '03 amended his
executive order, he intended for the president and the vice president to be the same on this. But it's just definitely
caused a lot of questions to be raised.
BLITZER: You could argue, Bill, and I've been in Washington for a long time, that there's an executive branch of
government, a legislative branch, judicial branch, the three traditional branches of government, but there's also now
vice presidential branch of the U.S. government, a Cheney branch of government. BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN SR.
POLITICAL ANALYST: That's right. And it's a very secretive branch of government, making the argument for execu
privilege, which will not fly politically. Of course, he doesn't have to run again. He's not going to run for president. S
feels insulated from politics.
The fact is, it's a very difficult argument to make. The Constitution, the vice president comes under the executive
branch. Sure, he has a connection to Congress. So does the president. He vetoes legislation.
There are interconnections among all these branches of government. To argue he's not a member of the executive
branch seems to me to be very far-fetched.
BLITZER: The Washington Post has a fascinating new series they started running today, Joe, on the vice presiden
And I'm going to read to you a little excerpt from the article.
"Stealth is among Cheney's most effective tools. Even talking points for reporters are sometimes stamped 'Treated
Top Secret/SCI.' Experts in and out of government said Cheney's office appears to have invented that designation,
which alludes to 'sensitive compartmented information,' the most closely guarded category of government secrets."
By adding the words 'treated as,' they said, Cheney seeks to protect unclassified work as though its disclosure wou
cause exceptionally grave damage to national security." This part of a series on the vice president called "Angler."
You're a lawyer. You studied law.
JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I have a law degree.
BLITZER: I know something about classified information. But SCI represents the most sensitive kind of information
You go to jail if you reveal that without authorization.
JOHNS: Sure. Well, it's been fascinating all along. The thing about this administration is it has really had a penchan
secrecy. But going back to the business about the fourth branch of government or whatever, when you look at that,
don't see where there is a legal precedent. I mean, I haven't researched it closely. I don't see where there's a legal
precedent about the vice president falling within the lines. However, if he does want to sort of declare himself presid
of the Senate and exempt from the executive branch, Democrats would be pretty sure to welcome him to the Senat
Ethics Committee to be disciplined there for anything that he's done.
BLITZER: He would be bound by all the rules of the U.S. Senate as well.
JOHNS: Right. So he could get it on the other side if he wants it from the Democrats, but I'm not sure he wants tha
BLITZER: I don't think he wants that. He wants the best of all worlds, and that doesn't include part of it.
Let's talk about vetoes. This week, the president issued his third veto since taking office, which is a tiny, tiny numbe
but until recently he only had a Republican-controlled House and Senate to deal with. Two of the vetoes on embryo
stem cell research federal funding, one on a timeline for troop withdrawal.
But you've been reporting this week that we're going to be seeing a whole lot more presidential vetoes in the, what,
year and a half remaining.
QUIJANO: Yeah, absolutely. When it comes to these budget battles, this is an opportunity for the president to basic
take on the Democratic-led Congress.
But what's interesting about this is sort of a key architect or someone who was leading the charge on this front, Rob
Portman, somebody of course who has close ties to Capitol Hill, the Republican leadership, leaving now just 18 mo
to go in the president's term here, and instead, Jim Nestle coming in.
But certainly, the president appears to be poised to, as you say, get all these vetoes pushed through to basically ta
on Congress.
BLITZER: It's a more traditional role when you have the opposition in control of Congress and a president. Then the
start issuing vetoes.
SCHNEIDER: That's right. And it's a recipe for gridlock. Look, though, it's not just the president going to veto the
legislation, but the Democrats in Congress do not have a big enough majority. The numbers just are not there to
override these vetoes. They couldn't on stem cells. They couldn't on the Iraq war funding bill.
And that is immensely frustrating to Democrats who elected this Congress. They believe to get something done, to
stand up to President Bush on the war and to defy him, and they don't have enough votes right now to override his
vetoes.
BLITZER: In this new Newsweek poll, Joe, the president's job approval number is at 26 percent. Only 26 percent o
American people think he's doing a good job. They approve of the job he's doing. Sixty-five percent disapprove.
But look at this. Only 25 percent think the Congress is doing a good job. They approve of what the Congress is doin
Sixty-three percent disapprove. Why is Congress right now, and it's a Democratic- controlled Congress, albeit only
since last November, why is Congress in less a high regard than even the president?
JOHNS: I think if you talk to a lot of Democrats on Capitol Hill, they would say the Iraq war is the thing. That there w
a lot of very energized voters who went to the polls and pulled the lever or whatever to get Democrats in office on th
Congressional level because they are very concerned about ending the war in Iraq. Now, if that's true, if it is not tru
whatever, that seems to be the perception on the Hill right now. And also the fact that Democrats are perceive bid
some to have sort of caved in in the fight with the president on the issue of Iraq certainly plays into that.
So it's part and parcel of the Iraq thing, mostly, I think.
BLITZER: And it also underscores the high disregard for Washington in general, which potentially opens the door fo
third- party candidate. And we're going to talk about that, the potential for a third-party candidate. Maybe the mayor
New York, Michael Bloomberg. He's only worth $5 billion. He's got the cash. Will he jump in?
And Senator Ted Kennedy spoke out early today on the Sunday talk shows. You're going to hear what he had to sa
our "In Case You Missed It" segment. "Late Edition" will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: And now, in case you missed it, let's check some of the highlights from the other Sunday morning talk sh
here in the United States. On ABC, Democratic Senator Ted Kennedy said he expects Congress to keep pushing
President Bush toward an endgame in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. EDWARD M. KENNEDY, D-MASS.: The president's going to get a timetable again and we're going to keep a
until we're successful. And I think we're going to pick up increasing support. I can't give you when the final time will
when we'll have the majority, but it's coming. It'll get there.
We got there at the time of Vietnam. It took too long. We got there in the Contra war, and that took too long. And we
going to get there on Iraq.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: On Fox, Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein discussed the Democratically controlled Congress's low
approval numbers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN, D-CALIF.: I think people had the expectation, not knowing the rules of the Senate, wow
would be able to move this country out of Iraq. Well, the Senate works very differently. You need 60 votes for virtua
anything that is controversial, and so it's not that easy to obtain the goal. I think people don't understand this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: On NBC, former presidential candidate Pat Buchanan and Illinois Congressman Luis Gutierrez squared
over the immigration reform bill. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATRICK BUCHANAN, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What I'm saying is, you are risking having tw
countries. Let us stop -- no amnesty, stop this, secure the border and enforce the laws. Then we can debate what t
with the folks who are legally, who are not criminal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, D-ILL.: The fact is, there is no amnesty in either of the bills. We say, come out of the
darkness, come out of the shadows, we will fingerprint you. If you have been convicted of any felony, you're out of
program. Number two, pay fines. They do exactly what you propose to do, learn English, learn -- but let me...
BUCHANAN; If they were illegal yesterday and they're legal today, isn't that amnesty?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Highlights from the other Sunday morning talk shows here on "Late Edition," the last word in Sunday talk
Up next, more of our political panel discussion. We'll talk about Michael Bloomberg. Is he serious about running for
president? And what about Ralph Nader?
And across the United States this week, viewers watched as the people of Charleston, South Carolina said farewel
nine brave firefighters. Now you can do something to help. Log on to cnn.com/impact, and with a click, you'll get the
information you need to take action and take action right now.
Not just on the tragedy in Charleston but on many, many other stories you see every day. Be a part of the solution.
the news on CNN to impact your world.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLOOMBERG: I think they're wasting their time. I'm not a candidate. So they should get down to polling on people
are candidates. And we've got a lot of them in this country. We even have two people from New York who are
candidates for president of the United States. I'm not sure the state needs a third.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: The mayor of New York, Michael Bloomberg, sounding a bit cagey about whether or not he will run for
president of the United States as an independent.
Welcome back to "Late Edition." We're back with the best political team on television: Bill Schneider, Elaine Quijano
and Joe Johns.
What do you make of this talk? And it is talk at this point. But he accelerated it this week by announcing he's no lon
a Republican. He's non-aligned, if you will.
SCHNEIDER: Well, when you have $5 billion, you can do just about anything you want politically. And he's got it. Y
need two things. You need money, which he's got, and a message.
What's his message? Well, it's sort of nonpartisanship, unity, like Arnold Schwarzenegger in California, he argues t
the only way to get problems solved in this country is to take a nonpartisan approach.
And if we're seeing all these vetoes piling up and gridlock between the president and Congress, the market for that
message could expand.
BLITZER: Because he could run really as somebody outside of Washington without the taint, if you will, and there a
lot of people out there around the country, Joe, as you know, Democrats and Republicans, who aren't very happy w
Washington right now.
JOHNS: Well, sure, and there was this Quinnipiac -- I think I said it right -- poll out there that was taken to see who
would take votes from, and I saw that it suggested he would take votes equally from Rudi Giuliani as well as Hillary
Clinton.
You know, look, the guy has been many times called the quintessential rhino, a Republican in name only. He's like
abortion...
BLITZER: Abortion rights and gay rights.
JOHNS: ... right, gun control and so on. That makes him attractive to a lot of different audiences. So you never kno
We know the history of independent runs in this country. You never know how it's going to turn out.
BLITZER: And if you've got $5 billion, if he take a half a billion and decides he's going to roll the dice, presumably h
would get some residence out there. Even though he's well-known in New York, but he isn't really all that well
outside of New York.
QUIJANO: Yes, you know, for the White House's part, they're staying out of this right now. The president was funny
was asked a question about this, as this news was developing in the Oval Office. And he said, "Bloomberg, great n
organization," and that was his comment. They are staying out of the politics of this right now but, obviously, watch
very closely to see how it develops.
SCHNEIDER: And make no mistake; Democrats are worried, because given his profile on the issues, they're worrie
he could split the liberal or the Democratic vote. He has been a Democrat in the past and hurt them in their race for
presidency.
BLITZER: In this Newsweek poll that just came out, "Should there be a major third party running for president," 57
percent said they agree, 36 percent said they disagree, 7 percent said they don't know. So people remember Ross
Perot back in '92 and all of us remember that campaign. Maybe there's an appetite; maybe there isn't.
But here's the question for you. Is there an appetite for a fourth party candidate? And would that be Ralph Nader if
decides, once again, to jump in? As you know, the Democrats call him the spoiler because they think had he not ru
the last time, Al Gore would have been elected back in 2000. I had this exchange with Ralph Nader in "The Situatio
Room" this week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Does the Bloomberg decision affect your decision?
RALPH NADER, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It makes it more interesting and more useful. You know
why? Because you reduce the political bigotry against the small party candidate because you've got a three
It's more mixed, more diverse and they will be otherwise preoccupied, shall we say, with Michael Bloomberg.
BLITZER: So as much as you say you like some of the things he stands for, even if he ran, you might still run anyh
NADER: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: How nervous should Democrats specifically be that Ralph Nader could jump in once again this time?
JOHNS: Well, there's always that issue of a spoiler and there's always that issue of taking away, in a very close rac
just a few hundred thousand or a million votes or whatever from your candidate. That said, it seems like every time
Ralph Nader starts talking about this, he gets less and less support, I mean, over the past couple cycles.
So you kind of wonder if the power of Ralph Nader is diluted except for those extremely progressive, ultraliberal gro
that would really like to see him out there pushing some of the causes that he pushes.
BLITZER: You studied the 2000 election, specifically Florida. He got, what, 90,000 votes in Florida and Gore lost b
500 some number of votes.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: He denies that he was the spoiler. But do you -- based on all the research you have done, Bill, and you'v
looked at these numbers about as closely as anyone. Would Al Gore have been elected president if Ralph Nader h
not run?
SCHNEIDER: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
BLITZER: Simple as that.
SCHNEIDER: Simple as that, yes. Because with 90,000 votes in Florida, Bush carried Florida by 537. Of course, m
of those votes -- some of them wouldn't have voted. Very few of those votes would have gone to George Bush. The
would have mostly gone to Al Gore among those who voted. Probably half of them wouldn't have voted, but so wha
Five hundred and thirty-seven votes is tiny.
BLITZER: We're almost out of time. What is the president's agenda this week? What's he up to?
QUIJANO: Immigration. Tuesday, another immigration remarks that he's going to be delivering. But it's interesting,
late add we saw. He's going to be going to the Islamic Center of Washington, D.C., marking the 50th anniversary o
dedication. So it will be interesting with all the events going on in the Middle East and Iraq to see what he has to sa
there.
BLITZER: Make or break this week on immigration reform.
QUIJANO: Absolutely.
BLITZER: And we'll see what happens, guys. Thanks very much for coming in, Joe, Elaine, Bill, all part of the best
political team on television.
Up next, see what the candidates are up to in the next few days in our "On the Campaign Trail" segment.
And if you would like a recap of today's program, you can get highlights on our new and improved "Late Edition"
podcast. Simply go to CNN.com/podcast.
And coming up at the top of the hour, "This Week At War" with host Jamie McIntyre. Here's a preview.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: It's called Operation Phantom Thunder. It's one o
biggest military operations in years, and the success or failure of the U.S. presence in Iraq could depend on how it
turns out.
We'll bring it all to you from the viewpoint of the troops on the dangerous streets of Baqouba, to the big picture, the
critical areas that commanders are watching, all coming up on "This Week At War."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Let's take a look at where some of the U.S. presidential candidates will be spending time over the next fe
days, "On the Campaign Trail" as candidates face the end a second quarter. And in a new round of the so
"money primary," most of out in search of money.
Senator Joe Biden will be fundraising today in California.
Former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney and his supporters will be hitting the phones to raise money in Bosto
today and tomorrow. On Monday, Senator Hillary Clinton will be raising funds in Chicago and New York.
Congressman Tom Tancredo is in Iowa today hitting a county fair, a picnic and, of course, a fundraiser.
Senator Chris Dodd is doing events in New Hampshire today. Apparently, he's not raising money.
But a former Wisconsin governor -- that would be Tommy Thompson -- will also be in New Hampshire on Monday
holding a fundraiser.
"On the Campaign Trail" with some of the presidential candidates.
And let's take a look right now at what's on the cover of this week's major news magazines here in the United State
Newsweek tells us "181 Things We Need to Know."
Time magazine teaches readers, "What we can learn from JFK."
And U.S. News and World Report looks at some "Secrets of the Civil War."
And that is your "Late Edition" for this Sunday, June 24th. Please be sure to join us next Sunday and every Sunday
11:00 a.m. Eastern for the last word in Sunday talk, two hours every Sunday. I'm also in "The Situation Room" Mon
through Friday from 4:00 to 6:00 p.m. Eastern, than another hour at 7:00 p.m. Eastern.
Until then, thanks for joining us. For our international viewers, stand by for world news. For those of you in North
America, "This Week at War" with Jamie McIntyre starts right now.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Is that acceptable to you?

BLITZER: What do you think of that idea of partitioning Iraq?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Do you agree?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

And I think we'll have the votes in the Senate.

You're watching "Late Edition," the last word in Sunday talk.

BLITZER: Welcome back to "Late Edition." I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.

Coming up later this hour, my exclusive interview with Vietnam's president.

HUTCHISON: Well, we haven't seen the full bill yet.

BLITZER: As it stands right now, what's your inclination?

BLITZER: To allow debate to continue.

BLITZER: That would be to limit the debate.

the area of border security.

BLITZER: But your inclination would be to support it?

BLITZER: And at least have a pathway to citizenship.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: So you think he did the wrong thing?

BLITZER: I assume you agree?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WYDEN: Thank you.

Stay with "Late Edition." We'll be right back.

BLITZER: Welcome back to "Late Edition." I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.

Hala, what happened today?

All that coming up right here on "Late Edition."

He seems to disagree with this strategy.

BLITZER: And at that point you do arm them, is that right?

ODIERNO: Thank you so much.

BLITZER: Welcome back to "Late Edition."

TRIET (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): I don't have specific data on this matter.

We'll be right back.

BLITZER: This is "Late Edition," the last word in Sunday talk.

Reversing the Middle East meltdown.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLOOMBERG: I'm not a candidate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Has Egypt effectively severed its relationship with Hamas?

BLITZER: Abu Mazen is Mahmoud Abbas, his code name.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Very quickly, Ambassador Fahmy, do you agree?

BLITZER: Do you think Fatah is up to the job?

BLITZER: So you're rejecting what Jimmy Carter said?

ROSS: I'm rejected what he had to say, yes.

Stay with "Late Edition." We'll be right back.

I spoke to her Wednesday, World Refugee Day, in "The Situation Room."

"Late Edition" will be right back.

BLITZER: Welcome back to "Late Edition." I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.

BLITZER: Henry Waxman from the House.

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I have a law degree.

So it's part and parcel of the Iraq thing, mostly, I think.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)