TRADITIONALIST VERSUS REVISIONIST PERSPECTIVES ON IFA A CLASSICAL AFRICAN SYSTEM OF KNOWLEDGE A DIALOGUE COMPILED BY Toyin Adepoju

1. [OmoOdua] Odu Ifa Ose Meji Inbox X Reply |

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Wale Adedayo <wadedayo@yahoo.co.uk> OmoOdua@yahoogroups.com omoodua@yahoogroups.com 4 April 2010 18:37 [OmoOdua] Odu Ifa Ose Meji hide details 4 Apr (3 <OmoOdua.yahoogroups.com> Filter messages from days ago) mailing list this mailing list mailed-by returns.groups.yahoo.com Signed by yahoogroups.com unsubscribe Unsubscribe from this mailing list Images are not Display images below - Always display images from wadedayo@yahoo.co.uk displayed.

Eyin Agba, If possible, kindly assist with a full length version of Odu Ifa Ose Meji. I've only been able to get bits and pieces of it on the web. Many Wale Adedayo thanks.

"Our enemies are the political profiteers, the swindlers, the men in high and low places that seek bribes and demand 10 percent; those that seek to keep the country divided permanently so that they can remain in office as ministers or VIPs at least, the tribalists, the nepotists, those that make the country look big for nothing before international circles, those that have corrupted our society and put the Nigerian political calendar back by their words and deeds." - Major Patrick Chukwuma Kaduna Nzeogwu, Jan. 15, 1966.

2. from toyin adepoju <toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com> to OmoOdua@yahoogroups.com date 4 April 2010 20:36 hide details 4 Apr (3 days Re: [OmoOdua] Odu Ifa Ose ago) subject Meji mailed-by googlemail.com From my little understanding of odu Ifa,an odu,as Wande Abimnola put it,can be understood as a chapter in a book with many poems and stories in each chapter..In that light,to speak of a full length version of an odu Ifa would be problematic.The challenge is made greater by the fact that each odu is actually a template,a guide for the creation of Ifa literature,so that as Ifa has moved to different parts of Africa and the Diaspora,numerous poems and stories have been created relating to each odu.The poems under each odu in various published literature on Ifa are not identical.I dont expect even Wande Abimbola's three major books on Ifa,An Exposition of Ifa literary Corpus,Ifa Divination Poetry and Sixteen Great Poems of Ifa, to have the same poems under the various odu.They would only give a few selections,each different from the other books..The same would go for differnces between texts by different authors such Wiiliam Bascom's Ifa Divination,Ifa:A Complete Divination by Ayo Salami,not to talk of Cromwell Ibie's translation,Ifism, which unlike the other books,which translate all ese ifa under the various odu in one book,undertakes to produce one book for each odu,where, since his translations are fromn Benin,are in prose narratives rather than the poetry that emerges from the Yoruba translations.Even with the approach of Ibie,it it clear he is presenting only small samples.I expect if all ese ifa under only one odu created and still known to practitioners globally are printed,like the Indian Mahabarata,it might constitute a library,not just one very big book,not to talk of all existing ese Ifa under each odu.On account of its structure,the Ifa corpus might be perhaps the world's largest organisation of literature under one structure. One of the best things anyone can do is to collate all renditions of ese ifa in writing,so as to help to give an idea of the scope oif literary inventivenes compassed under each odu and the entire corpus in general.It would also be wonde4fyul to gather together all existing ese Ifa, in all languages,incuding Yoruba and the languages used by Ifa students in the diaspora as in Brazil and Cuba,for example.The University of Ibadan Yoruba department is already taping
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and and translating Ifa literature,keeping the records in audio tapes and writing.At least I got that impression when I visited there some years ago.An effort to collate as many ese ifa as possible and make them available,perhaps both in written form,in audio from,to give a feel of their spoken expression and online,would indicate the sheer wealth of the literature for the world to see. It would also be relevant to keep track,as much as it is possible,of developments of new ese ifa as they are created,particularly as the scope of ese ifa indicates continuous development across time.Someone on the blog Ifa Yesterday,Ifa Today, Ifa Tomorrow has even suggested the possibility of creating new ese ifa that reflect the realities of social conditions of Ifa practitioners in places different from Yorubaland,such as in the US.

Please forgive my curiosity about your interest in Ose Meji.According to Judith Gleason in A Recitation of Ifa and Falokun Fatumbi,it has a relationship to the aje.Gleason has a wonderful section where she presents a story from Ose Meji about Odu in relation to Igba Iwa,the Calabash or Container of Existence in which she combines various myths about the image of the feminine in the Orisa tradition.That story,though,is derived from a more basic but still wonderful narrative which you can see at The Goddess , The Gleason section is copied out into this essay on the feminine principle in the Orisa tradition at Scribd and Facebook .Fatumbi has an Ose Meji translation on Scribd. If you are keen on the aje concept,you could also consider Our Mothers,Our Powers,Our Texts by Teresa Wasahington,and Pierre Verger,"Grandeur et Decadence du Culte de Iyami Osoronga,translated as The Rise and Fall of the Cult of Iyami Orosonga and the setions on how ro become an aje in his Ewe:The Uses of Plants in Yoruba Society. I would be happy to be further educated on these issues,and to be directed to sources on ese ifa and Ose Meji,,particularly it would be nice to learn from those who practice Ifa in a traditional sense.

Thanks Toyin 3. ---------From: Date: 5 April 2010 01:00 Subject: Re: To: Forwarded message ---------<Batokkinc@aol.com>

[OmoOdua]

Odu

Ifa Ose Meji OmoOdua@yahoogroups.com

I have been hunting for that book,Ewe:The Uses of Plants in Yoruba Society. for years. Do you know where I could get one?

In a message dated 4/4/2010 4:39:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com writes: If you are keen on the aje concept,you could also consider Our Mothers,Our Powers,Our Texts by Teresa Wasahington,and Pierre Verger,"Grandeur et Decadence du Culte de Iyami Osoronga,translated as The Rise and Fall of the Cult of Iyami Orosonga and the setions on how ro become an aje in his Ewe:The Uses of Plants in Yoruba Society. I think Judith has mixed up Ose Meji with Osa Meji, aka Osa Eleye which speaks to the issue of the Ajes. It speaks to how Olodumare sent them to the Eart on a mission. When my Oluwo comes to town from Nigeria, I will ask him questions . You can start compiling all the questions you have on Osa Meji. In a message dated 4/4/2010 4:39:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com writes: Please forgive my curiosity about your interest in Ose Meji.According to Judith Gleason in A Recitation of Ifa and Falokun Fatumbi,it has a relationship to the aje.Gleason has a wonderful section where she presents a story from Ose Meji about Odu in relation to Igba Iwa,the Calabash or Container of Existence in which she combines various myths about the image of the feminine in the Orisa tradition.That story,though,is derived from a more basic but still wonderful narrative which you can see at The Goddess , The Gleason section is copied out into this essay on the feminine principle in the Orisa tradition at Scribd and Facebook.Fatumbi has an Ose Meji translation on Scribd. __. That would be tantamount to adulteration and profanation.

In a message dated 4/4/2010 4:39:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com writes: Someone on the blog Ifa Yesterday,Ifa Today, Ifa Tomorrow has even suggested the possibility of creating new ese ifa that reflect the realities of social conditions of Ifa practitioners in places different from Yorubaland,such as in the US. __._,_. You can contact University of Indiana at Bloomington. They have some Ese Ifa saved on CD. The Eses were recorde in 1965 at Oshogbo. I have a copy. In a message dated 4/4/2010 4:39:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com writes: One of the best things anyone can do is to collate all renditions of ese ifa in writing,so as to help to give an idea of the scope oif literary inventivenes compassed under each odu and the entire corpus in general.It would also be wonde4fyul to gather together all existing ese Ifa, in all languages,incuding Yoruba and the languages used by Ifa students in the diaspora as in Brazil and Cuba,for example.The University of Ibadan Yoruba department is already taping and and translating Ifa literature,keeping the records in audio tapes and writing.At least I got that impression when I visited there some years ago.An effort to collate as many ese ifa as possible and make them available,perhaps both in written form,in audio from,to give a feel of
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their spoken expression and online,would indicate the sheer wealth of the literature for the world to see. 4. from toyin adepoju <toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com> OmoOdua@yahoogroups.com, to Yoruba Affairs hide details 5 Apr <yorubaaffairs@googlegroups.com> (2 days ago) date 5 April 2010 08:23 subject Re: [OmoOdua] Odu Ifa Ose Meji mailed-by googlemail.com thanks Batokkinc. It might be me who has mixed it up,not knowing of a difference between Ose Meji and Osa Meji.I will see Gleason again and hopefully check other sources.I will also keep the Indiana info in mind.They are clearly strong in African studies.Perhaps I should have studied there instead of coming to England from Nigeria since they also have a very powerful comparative literature department,that being my field.I might consider finding my way there still. Batokkinc,I know your respect me and I respect you.At the same time,however,I would like us to examine critically our contrastive perspectives on the development or creation of ese ifa.I would like us to do it in a way that does not shy from taking apart the other person's argument while keeping our mutual respect in mind. I am putting it this way because I have some strong feelings on Ifa,in spite of the fact that my exposure to the practice of Ifa in a traditional sense is quite limited.I am of the view that a number of traditionalist perspectives on Ifa are based on a misunderstanding of Ifa,such as the view that creating new ese ifa that reflect social conditions different from those of Yoruba land is adulteration and profanation,as you claim.Why should this be so? Ese Ifa are fundamentally a body of literature,at times with a formulaic structure which can be easily imitated. One can compose a basic ese ifa if they know the structure,particularly the kind used in Abimbola's An Exposition of Ifa literary Corpus and Ifa Divination Poetry.I suspect that whatever spiritual power the ese ifa might have might be not so much in the literature as a structure of words in and of itself but in other factors relating to the relationship between the literature and the human and performative context in which it is used. There is a critical need to understand the dynamics of Ifa. Does it work and how does it work? What is its value to different kinds of enquiry? I would also hold that ese ifa cannot be described as identical with the fixed character of Biblical literature where a group of people fixed the canon once and for all. The significance of the oral aspect of the ese ifa and the very practical manner in which they are used implies that they are more amenable to modification and to addition than works like the Bible.Was it not human beings who composed the existing ese ifa? Bascom describes some of the process in which this is done,such as dream inspiration.

One should note,though,some very intriguing statements made by Pierre Verger on the value of the transmission of ase-the creative,cosmic force that sustains and makes possible universal processes in nature and human life-through the oral dimension of ese ifa in his introduction to Ewe.I get the impression, however,that ase is a concept of universal applicability and that ase is also transmitted through literature of various kinds.It might not be different from the proclamation of the English poet John Milton "A good book is the life blood of a master spirit,sealed and transmitted to a life beyond life" I also suspect that the memorization of ese ifa might be unnecessary,even for a babalawo.I suspect,as some scholars in modern African philosophy have argued,that memorization,being a device used largely bcs of the absence of writing,has both its strengths and weaknesses. One of these weakness is that valuable effort is made in committing information to memory and less in analyzing that information. Such limitations of analysis now means that such a system is liable to be stuck in repeating old ways of doing things because the essential value of a practice cannot be interpreted apart from its manner of expression. Are we saying that one cannot grasp the meaning of an ese ifa without memorizing the whole poem or story? I doubt it.Is it also necessary to chant an entire poem in the divinatory process in the exact form in which one got it? I doubt it.Can one not improvise,even on the spot within a divinatory session, ,make changes as one wants while keeping to a core meaning? Can one not even compose a new poem on the spot,inspired by the old poem?Can the process of composition not be part of the act of divining? I think so. I would hold that the babalawo,among other skills he or she cultivates,is a student of literature who is being trained,to some degree as a literary artist.If I might use the example of Jesus,who,like the creators of the ese ifa, was an oral literary artist,a storyteller,who created stories to communicate his ideas.If he did not do that and relied only on old scriptures,he could not have communicated that message as effectively.As it is his brilliant and but simple parables have become part of world literature.He used images derived from his very simple,pre-industrial society,such as images from sheep herding and other images that are universal across time,such as those traveling,having a party etc. Now,can similar points not be made using other imagery? Is Lagos less a fitting setting for such stories than Galilee? The Ifa stories seem less local in imagery than some of Jesus stories but the general point holds,I think. I suggest that there is a critical need to take forward the achievement represented by the creation of Ifa.Ifa has grown in terms of geographical spread.It should also grow in terms of approaches to its practice in a situation where various perspectives are proffered and possibly applied. I heard some years ago that Wande Abimbola was working on creating an Ifa university with the aid of UNESCO.I hope such ideas are realized one day and that a critical examination and adaptation of Ifa is central to such initiatives.I wonder,though,if there is not a critical need to look again at to what degree the Western classroom teaching style would fit Ifa studies for aspiring babalawos. I would hold that it is possible and even crucial that babalawos should be trained simultaneously in the traditional Ifa disciplines as well as in the full range of contemporary knowledge,and trained to critically examine their own practices and the beliefs underlying
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Ifa.I am convinced that at the core of Ifa is an essence that is robust and elastic enough to grow under such expansive learning and scrutiny.Susanne Wenger put it well in relation to the Orisa tradition,although,in my view,with some exaggeration-there is no superstition in the Orisa tradition.I have performed an Orisanla invocation using a technique of Western magic and it seemed to have worked for me.I got the results I was looking for.My experience of Ifa also suggests that whatever spiritual force or forces work with Ifa will come if you invite them through interest and action,wherever you are,whatever medium you are using,whether in academic work or some more traditional medium.As the Bini babalawo Joseph Ohomina puts it,the odu,the forces behind action in Ifa, are spirits,although they are also represented in terms of literature. They do not speak a human language.Yoruba is essentially the language first used in the discovery of communicating with them but they cannot be restricted to the forms of Yoruba or related cultures.As Jesus,who was a keen student of spirit,put it in another context-the spirit bloweth where it listeth,and none knows whence it cometh and whither it goeth. People like him,though, used disciplines like prayer,fasting and withdrawal from society to attract, concentrate and focus the presence of spirit,or ase,a closely related category...The babalawo Awo Falokun Fatumbi also presents an invocation to achieve a similar goal in one of his essays on the document archive Scribd. I make theses propositions even though I am not a babalawo because I am convinced that whatever the babalawo are doing must have some relationship to the scope of human possibilities already established in other human practices,spiritual and otherwise. The Pierrer Verger Ewe book, along with his other books,can be got at the Pierre Verger Foundation which you can easily find through a Google search.I dont know how efficient their method of collecting payment is though since they dont seem to have a card payment option,although they look very well organized otherwise. There is a US publisher who sells the book although I have not been able to get her site again for some time.When I do I will let you know.You could also try Ebay and random searches from time to time.It crops up occasionally but sells quick. Do you mind if I share this discussion with other groups? Its always helpful to get a cross current of opinion. Thanks Toyin 5. from bimbola adelakun <adunnibabe@yahoo.com> reply-to OmoOdua@yahoogroups.com to OmoOdua@yahoogroups.com date 5 April 2010 19:53 hide details 5 Apr subject Re: [OmoOdua] Odu Ifa Ose Meji (2 days ago) <OmoOdua.yahoogroups.com> Filter messages mailing list from this mailing list mailed-by returns.groups.yahoo.com Signed by yahoogroups.com
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Images are not Display images below - Always display images from adunnibabe@yahoo.com My two kobo contribution:

I would also hold that ese ifa cannot be described as identical with the fixed character of Biblical literature where a group of people fixed the canon once and for all. Precisely why not? The significance of the oral aspect of the ese ifa and the very practical manner in which they are used implies that they are more amenable to modification and to addition than works like the Bible. I do not think so. I guess it is because the Jews discovered writing first. The fact that it is oral doesnt mean that it should be subjected to regular review otherwise, the integrity will be tampered with. Was it not human beings who composed the existing ese ifa? Just like the Bible verses, yes

I also suspect that the memorization of ese ifa might be unnecessary, even for a babalawo.I suspect,as some scholars in modern African philosophy have argued,that memorization, being a device used largely bcs of the absence of writing,has both its strengths and weaknesses. One of these weakness is that valuable effort is made in committing information to memory and less in analyzing that information. I don't think they are not analytical. If you have spent all your life studying ifa, you will apply it to life situations the way people do the Bible. The fact that we crammed texts in school doesnt mean we cannot subject it to analysis when required to... Such limitations of analysis now means that such a system is liable to be stuck in repeating old ways of doing things because the essential value of a practice cannot be interpreted apart from its manner of expression.

I would hold that the babalawo,among other skills he or she cultivates,is a student of literature who is being trained,to some degree as a literary artist.If I might use the example of Jesus,who,like the creators of the ese ifa, was an oral literary artist,a storyteller, who created stories to communicate his ideas.If he did not do that and relied only on old scriptures,he could not have communicated that message as effectively. I suppose this is different. Jesus could have created verses of Scripture cos he was a key player but none of the pastors who preach in his name today can do that. Babalawos, like pastors, can repeat ese ifa and Scritures but are not supposed to add to it! Otherwise, the human factor comes in and ruins everything. As it is his brilliant and but simple parables have become part of world literature.He used images derived from his very simple,pre-industri al society,such as images from sheep herding and other images that are universal across time,such as those traveling,having a party etc. Now,can similar points not be made using other imagery? Is Lagos less a fitting setting for such stories than Galilee? The Ifa stories seem less local in imagery than some of Jesus stories but the general point holds,I think. I agree but why do we need to 'upgrade' these books like some academic material

I heard some years ago that Wande Abimbola was working on creating an Ifa university with the aid of UNESCO.I hope such ideas are realized one day and that a critical examination and adaptation of Ifa is central to such initiatives. I wonder,though, if there is not a critical need to
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look again at to what degree the Western classroom teaching style would fit Ifa studies for aspiring babalawos. The school has been built. I suppose it is the one called 'School of ifa studies' in Oyo town. 6. Ile - Ife where the world began

http://63.134.236.176/IleIfe/iif/ileife.html

16 cosmological tenets of the Odu Ifa

http://www.cultural-expressions.com/ifa/orisha/odu.htm Eji Seek wisdom beyond sacrifices, sit

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ogbe: down with spiritual teachers.

Oyeku

meji:

Kindness must not be done with evil intentions. Do not engage in any wickedness against others; do not retaliate against those who are against you.

Iwori

meji:

Speak their truth, even against evil doers, but beware of their retribution. Do not wrestle for advancement; do not seek to attain through competition, Idi meji:

Too much kindness is repaid with wickedness; do not be foolishly kind. Do not leave this earth with no one to reap your heritage. Do not be involved with gossip, even if it involves you Irosun meji:

Be patient; do not be in a hurry to achieve; step by step is the best way. Respect and honor the ancestors; preserve the memories of their achievements and become a part of their consciousness. Oworin meji:

Do not let scarcity affect your wisdom, do not let scarcity make you unwise. To improve your life, improve your character and behavior. Obara meji:

Cease to complain about life and cease to be stubborn for such brings misfortune and loss. Okanran meji:

Do not go to places where you are not invited. Cease to be argumentative; cease to incite debate. Ogunda meji:

Strive to complete all endeavors which you have begun. Learn to channel your aggressive tendencies positively.. Osa meji:

Guard against over-stressing yourself; guard against anxiety and frustration. Strive continually to achieve the impossible. Resist those who attempt to disrupt your well-being. Ika
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meji:

Appreciate yourself more fully; appreciate your divine. Address the major problems in your life; cease to attend only the minor ones. People will attempt to harm you; do not let them do so. Oturupon meji:

Learn to act more and react less; reacting based on the ways of others leads to misfortune. Guard against spitefulness, do not harbor ill feelings against others. Exercise firmness, especially when things are bad. Otura meji:

Do not abandon the heavenly law which decrees the supremacy of elders. Study your speech so that the modifications of the mind may be reached. Irete meji:

Remember one falsehood destroys a thousand truths. Listen to advice; you are wise only if you listen to advice. Do not exhaust yourself attempting to satisfy the emptiness of others. Ose meji:

Every act whether mental, physical, or emotional, has an enormous impact on our lives. Do not be so easily distracted; do not let your attention be so easily taken. Refrain from anything That involves the showing odd of strengths. Ofun meji:

Take care of what you eat: do not eat in a hurry; sit down and relax while eating. Guard against those who make you anxious. Be not moved by anger, lust or greed Ase! ase O!, ase!

Akin Awofolaju

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afis to naijapolitics, TalkNigeria, Odua, Batokkinc, me from afis <odidere2001@yahoo.com> naijapolitics@yahoogroups.com, TalkNigeria@yahoogroups.com, Odua <omoodua@yahoogroups.com>, odidere2001@yahoo.com Batokkinc@aol.com, toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com 5 April 2010 13:24 Odu Ifa Ose Meji yahoo.com yahoo.com

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"Someone on the blog Ifa Yesterday,Ifa Today, Ifa Tomorrow has even suggested the possibility of creating new ese ifa that reflect the realities of social conditions of Ifa practitioners in places different from Yorubaland,such as in the US." By Brother Toyin Adepoju.

My comment: Ifa is not a literature book like "A Christmas Carol" or "Death of A Salesman" kind of. Brother Toyin, do you ever think of creating more "verses" in the Bible or "Al Qur'an"? Yes, Ifa "verses" can be reviewed and opinions shared on them, but creating new verses would demean Ifa and relates it to mere fiction. Ifa is a Way. It was the guiding light (Ohun atani si ona) of the Yoruba, until the "White Dusts" arrived in cyclonic storm, blinding and burying the souls of the Yoruba in self-created religious sand dunes. Though Ifa was not in written form for decades, the Ifa verses had remained intact from one area of Yoruba to another. Ifa was handed down by Orunmila Baba Ifa, just as Muhammad brought the "Al Qur'an". Its recitations never change. Eji Ogbe is Eji Ogbe anywhere, "Ose Meji" is "Ose meji" in Yorubaland. Anyone who adds more "verses" therefore, has added non-Ifa "verses". It's blasphemous and sacrilegeous, and I say it candidly, those added "verses" would not work for the Ifa-seer. The Odu Ifa known as "verses" by the "emumunication" community, are not just there for mere adulation and admiration. The "verses" are there to show the "Way", to tell the future, or to right a wrong to an individual or to a community. Odu Ifa is used to bring peace between a man and his "Ori lonise", or between a community and the Gods.
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When you visit an Ifa priest, the Odu that is seen must come from those Odu-s that Orunmila handed down to his followers. It's from those Odu-s that a prediction can be made and pronounced on the seeker of the Truth. The seer cannot see thru what is not given from Orunmila. For example, an Odu "Oyeku" may be for the avoidance of impending havoc, as in "Oyeku yeku l'orimi". The "Oyeku" must be seen on the "opele" before the seer could conclude his findings. Ifa "verses" cannot be "created" as if it's a literary work, they all have meanings relating to the findings by the Ifa priest. Make una "gba brake" small small oooo, with dis una "emumunication" without borders. Shikena. afis 8. from toyin adepoju <toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com> to afis <odidere2001@yahoo.com> naijapolitics@yahoogroups.com, Odua cc <omoodua@yahoogroups.com>, Batokkinc@aol.com date 5 April 2010 18:13 subject Re: Odu Ifa Ose Meji mailed-by googlemail.com Afis, Please.... 1.How do you know odu Ifa were handed down by Orunmila? Does Orunmila really exist? If he exists,in what form does he exist? To what degree is Orunmila a creation of the human mind and to what degree is he an entity,personality or force that exists independent of the human mind? Must I believe unequivocally in the existence of Orunmila to be able to advantage of Orisa and Ifa spiritual technologies? Can Orunmila manifest himself so that his existence becomes a matter of knowledge rather than of faith? What is meant by the Yoruba idea that without human beings there would be no orisa? How plausible in actuality is the account in Chinua Achebe's Arrow of God that a particular deity was self consciously,deliberately, created by the people of its community? 2.Is it not more probable that a human being,perhaps Setilu, actually created the Ifa system? And others built on it? Is there anything about the system that is beyond human mental capacity to create? How do we account for the similarities between Ifa and other divinatory and knowledge systems,from divination to computing,as in the use of binary structure? Do these similarities indicate a common divine creation or similarities in the workings of the human mind? Does creation by a human being rule out divine inspiration? For an imaginative
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depiction of how Ifa might have been created,one could see the earliest posts in my blog ifastudentandteacher.blogspot.com.

3. Why do people not create more Biblical verses? Simple.At a point in time a group of people came together and decided that they would decide what should be in the Bible and what should not. After that they declared the process closed.no more additions. The canon formation is purely a human affair arranged for purposes of doctrinal organization.The Bible is written by human beings, at times inspired,but humans. Even if God inspired part of the Bible he did not write it himself.He worked through human beings.As for the Quran, Muhammed presents it as dictated by an angel, which,to me, is possible.He describes himself as the last of the prophets.He is welcome to his point of view on that.He is not the first or the last person to ascribe a privileged role to themselves at the centre of divine affairs. The ECKANKAR group claims that their teacher,a an Anglo-American, is the emissary of the ultimate being and is the highest spiritual teacher in the universe. 4. Why should Ifa recitations not change? What would they lose from changing? I read them and frankly speaking a good number of the ones I have read can be changed without altering their meaning or even their poetic strength. Most of the ese Ifa in Abimbola's books for example,do not have the poetic intensity and linguistic sophistication of the Biblical psalms, for example. Their kind of strength is different,since they were created for easy memorizing,lending them to easy modification. What is there in their content that is so sacrosanct that they cannot be modified and still have value? 5. You concluded by asserting the unchanging meaning, not just the form of ese Ifa.So? A work of literature can be modified and its meaning remain intact.In fact,meaning,particularly with reference to the elasticity of ese Ifa can easily be expanded or contracted depending on how one chooses to use the existing forms. Anyway,must one use only existing Ifa literary forms in practicing Ifa?True,creating or modifying ese Ifa leads to the question of authenticity,but the question is-must the authentic be what does not change? 6.Ifa is literature. The Bible is literature. The Koran is literature. What is literature? Literature can be described as an imaginative form of expression.It is imaginative because ,in its language and general presentation of its subject,it relies to a greater or lesser degree on recreating what it presents so that the audience can experience the subject matter more intimately,in particular directions evoked by the artist.In doing that,it uses distinctive but universally used forms of language as well as reshapes reality imaginatively Such qualities of reshaping reality imaginatively are represented by the ese ifa in Abimbola's Ifa Divination Poetry (Otua Meji a) in which the squirrel is advised by Ifa not to talk too much-: The slippery mouth; The mouth that cannot keep secrets; The trap set by mouth never fails to catch victims; It is the mouth of the talkative which kills the talkative; It is the mouth of he who talks at large which kills he who talks at large; It is talking too much which kills the eavesdropper. Ifa divination was performed for the Squirrel Who built a nest near the road The Squirrel was warned to be very careful
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Because he could not keep secrets... The fact that interaction between diviners and squirrels is not a conventional part of human reality,if at all,makes this personification of the squirrel,making it a figure that can talk and be spoken to, a literary device and the poem where this appears literary. The squirrel forgets the warning of Ifa and announces to passing humans that he has just had children. The humans ask to see the children and the poem concludes on a sadly delightful note.In Yoruba it reads Won fi awon omo okere leri iyan Won si ba obe lo which Abimbola translates as They put the children on the Squirrel on top of pounded yam And they disappeared with soup but,the second part of which,perhaps, can also read "they escorted soup away" as one sees off or escorts a friend some distance from one's house,thereby creating an ironic description of the plight of the baby squirrels who have become part of soup. This ese ifa creates a delightful narrative through making the squirrel seem human,thereby playing on the chattering sound it makes with its teeth as well as its fate as a human dietary delicacy. By highlighting the squirrel as a family man,which it actually is,the poem could provoke in the audience an identification with the animal as a creature who shares human qualities,facilitating perception from within the squirrels perception of itself,however limited,possibly evoking a reconsideration of the act of feeding on animals as well projecting a quality that is widespread in human life-the danger of lack of discipline in speech. A richer reading could emerge from analyzing the original Yoruba,on account of expressions that might not have been translated,such as Igba ti awon omo aye dele, Won fi awon omo okere leri iyan Won si ba obe lo The first line of which identifies humans as children (omo) of the world (aye),in this case a generic term for human beings but which also has connotations in colloquial Yoruba speech that suggest negative elements in life generally,as evoked here by the misfortune suffered by the squirrel.In characterizing humans as children of the world,"omo aye" who feed on "omo okere", the squirrel's children,it suggests a contrast between the children of the world with the animal children they feed on,thereby evoking a juxtaposition of two forms of being,human and animal,a juxtaposition that suggests its own range of ideas relating to Ifa as mediating between forms of being,metaphorically speaking, in integrating observations about nature in its characterizations of reality, mediating literally in using natural forms in its spiritual technologies,and mediating literally between humans and spirits.

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All these interpretive possibilities emerging from the personification of the squirrel are introduced by the striking opening lines,which through rhythmic patterning of lines,repetition of a central idea in each lines with an new expansion of the idea in each succeeding line-the talkative mouth: it cannot keep secrets;its is trap that catches victims,it never fails to do so;it kills the talkative;it kills the who talks at large;it kills the eavesdropper. The mouth is described as if it is an independent agent,as if it is the entire human being, thereby suggesting the compulsive character of being talkative-one's mouth seems to control one-one's brain seems to be in one's mouths....The parallelism of using similar sentence structures in each line,varying them by repeating the basic idea using a similar or identical word-talkingtalkative-adding new elaborations of the idea in each line,adds to the force of the basic ideabeing talkative can kill,illustrated in subsequent lines by the tragic story of the squirrel. Is it not possible to write a poem guided by the literary principles eviodent in this poem?Would such a poem be less worthy as an ese ifa? Is it not possible to write a poem different in form from any ese ifa that can be helpful in learning about Ifa?

Each ese ifa in Abimbola's book opens with striking poetic lines like No wise man can tie water into a knot on the edges of his garment No sages knows the grains of sand on the earth in which,as in this example,commonplace observations are articulated in a manner that suggests proverbial truths and possibly deeper philosophical ideas. This is literature because it creates a fresh appreciation of the commonplace (The English poet William Wordsworth's description of poetry) Along with this Ifa literature has some striking erotic passages,as in the descriptions of Iyanla in Babatunde Lawal'[s Gelede Spectacle,like the Biblical Song of Songs is totally an erotic poem,however the church has tried to pretty it up.When the Koran in Sura al Nur describes Allah as light,a glittering star,that is literary because it evokes a physical image which helps us imagine the qualities of something not physical -Allah. A good part of what is in ese ifa is fictive because it is not meant to be taken literally.Do squirrels talk with babalawo,with Chicken Egg ( Eji Ogbe b),Menstrual Flow ( Iwori Meji b) Cock( Okanran Meji b) Ojontarigi,the wife of Death (Ogunda Meji a) Lion (Ogunda Meji b)..all examples from Wande Abimbola,Ifa Divination Poetry,with the particular odu in which the example appears in brackets.Its being fictive and imaginative does not mean it is deceptive.It communicates an idea that is not literally,directly presented. One understands,dor example,the folly of the squirrel's actions even though it is practically untrue that such an incident ever took place.That is a quality of literature,that Biodun Jeyifo calls the "truthful lie". The major difference between Ifa,Charles Dickens and Arthur Miller,whom you mention is that Ifa literature is directed at serving an overtly sacred purpose as part of a spiritual technology while the others are overtly secular..But that purpose in Ifa is partly served through literary devices similar to those of Dickens and Miller. Thanks toyin
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9. from afis <odidere2001@yahoo.com> toyin adepoju to <toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com> naijapolitics@yahoogroups.com, Odua <omoodua@yahoogroups.com>, cc Batokkinc@aol.com, hide details 5 Apr (2 odidere2001@yahoo.com, days ago) TalkNigeria@yahoogroups.com date 5 April 2010 18:52 subject Re: Odu Ifa Ose Meji mailed-by yahoo.com Signed by yahoo.com Brother Toyin: I have not read Abimbola's "Ifa Divination Poetry", but the way you describe the contents, in my view, that is not Ifa divination per se. Abimbola's poetry maybe some literary creation out of the Odu Ifa divination. That Abimbola named his poetry "Ifa Divination" does not make the poetry Ifa. Anyone could create a book out of the Bible to make the reading lively for the uneducated. But the verses in the Bible remains, according to the believers, the words of God. So it is with Ifa. I'm not around some of the Ifa books right now, but let me borrow from the wikkipedia which gives definition of Ifa as such: In traditional Yoruba culture, If refers to a system of divination and the verses of the literary corpus known as the Od If presented in the course of divination. Orunmila is the deity associated with Ifa diviniation. In some instances, the name Orunmila is used interchangeably with the word Ifa. Orunmila brought Ifa diviniation to the world. If originated in West Africa among the Yourba ethnic groups. It is also practiced among believers in Lucumi, (sometimes referred to as Santera), Candombl, West African & Diaspora Vodou, and similarly transplanted Orisa'Ifa lineages in the New World. In Togo, it is known as Afa, where the Vodou deities come through and speak. In many of their Egbes, it is Alaundje who is honored as the first Bokono to have been taught how to divine the destiny of humans using the holy system of Afa." Wikkipedia.

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Ifa is a system of divination, not creative writing 101. Ifa is Orunmila, and Orunmila is the father of Ifa. In short, The verses of Ifa were brought by Orunmila, not Setilu, not Abimbola's poetry, and not a literary creation of the kind that Brother Toyin defines in his essay below. Ifa is a way of life. The verses have meanings and relate to events and palpable actions. It tells of divination and what sacrifices one should make to avoid impending disaster. The Ifa verses are incantations, not mere poetry. A Holy recitations, not creative writing 101.

Brother Toyin, I'll look around and read your Abimbola's poetry, then hopefully by the end of the week we'll discuss further. Shikena. afis

10. from Pius Adesanmi <piusadesanmi@yahoo.com> reply-to NaijaPolitics@yahoogroups.com afis <odidere2001@yahoo.com>, to NaijaPolitics@yahoogroups.com, nigerianworldforum@yahoogroups.com naijapolitics@yahoogroups.com, cc Odua <omoodua@yahoogroups.com>, hide details 5 Batokkinc@aol.com Apr (2 days date 5 April 2010 19:05 ago) subject Re: [NaijaPolitics] Re: Odu Ifa Ose Meji <NaijaPolitics.yahoogroups.com> Filter messages mailing list from this mailing list mailed-by returns.groups.yahoo.com Signed by yahoogroups.com unsubscribe Unsubscribe from this mailing list Images are not Display images below - Always display images from piusadesanmi@yahoo.com Toyin: This is a quick one. Egbon Afis has nothing to explain until you clear up all the confusion you wove into your post below. First, what is "spiritual technology" tori oloun? Then you serve us this curious statement: "Most of the ese Ifa in Abimbola's books for example,do not have the poetic intensity and
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linguistic sophistication of the Biblical psalms, for example." Really? Toyin? Helloooo!!!! Since you assume the mantle of a literary critic here, the least you could do is give us examples from the psalms to back up this your theory of superior "poetic intensity" and "linguistic sophistication". Toyin, give us two verses, one from ifa and one from the Book of psalms. Do a conventional poetic appreciation of both and lets see if your assertion stands scrutiny. You can't get away with making this sort of claim without backing it up. Then you claim: "6.Ifa is literature. The Bible is literature. The Koran is literature." Yes, Toyin, but that is only half the truth. These are also belief systems and ways of life. They are faith. Literature is not belief and it is not a way of life. Literature is not faith. Nobody wakes up in the morning to pour libation to Things Fall Apart andn Arrow of God. At best, you could go the way of Auerbach and call literature mimesis, it still doesn't elevate it to the level of faith. That is why your claim in no 6 is utterly reductionist and cannot stand. After postulating ese ifa's inferiority to the psalms in terms of poetic intensity, you proceed to heap literay praise on it even while misreading the ese you cite from Abimbola. You write: "The fact that interaction between diviners and squirrels is not a conventional part of human reality" My broda, what do you mean here? Hunting for okere and other eran igbe is a conventional part of human reality anywhere in Yoruba land and how does this exclude diviners? Or do you think that a diviner roaming the forest for "ewe" (leaves) would close his eyes to any careless "okere" (squirrel)? He is likely to thank ifa for that added gift. The remainder of your post is spent doing a literary appreciation of ifa - is it still poetically inferior to psalms at this point? All the literary devices and figures of speech in your cited ifa verse you then proceed to read literally as evidence of ifa's exclusive fictionality. That's a completely flawed discursive procedure and it has led you to the false questions you are asking Egbon Afis to answer. When your father summons you for a father-son talk and says: "at a certain age, a child is expected to own a hoe and cutlass. Son, we are waiting. Don't be the exception to this rule". He could very well stop the conversation here. If you thank him and promise to do his bidding, do you then go and buy a hoe and a cutlass or you go and propose marriage to your fiancee? Does the fact that he did not mention marriage reduce all he told you to literature and fiction? Pius ================================================================== ==== "A fun won l'aso sokoto lo fo won" - Kollington Ayinla 11. from afis <odidere2001@yahoo.com> hide details 13:27 reply-to OmoOdua@yahoogroups.com (17 hours ago) NaijaPolitics@yahoogroups.com, to Pius Adesanmi <piusadesanmi@yahoo.com>,
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cc date subject mailing list mailed-by Signed by unsubscribe

TalkNigeria@yahoogroups.com naijapolitics@yahoogroups.com, Odua <omoodua@yahoogroups.com>, Batokkinc@aol.com, odidere2001@yahoo.com 6 April 2010 13:27 [OmoOdua] Re: [NaijaPolitics] Re: Odu Ifa Ose Meji <OmoOdua.yahoogroups.com> Filter messages from this mailing list returns.groups.yahoo.com yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe from this mailing list displayed.

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Brother Pius, our brother Toyin is a very crafty customer. I always love to read his piece. If you encounter him in a debate, you better sleep with open-eye. His words sound innocent, but one could see he's out to discredit Ifa by relegating it to mere "creative writing 101". One has to really corner Brother Toyin with nowhere to move before you checkmate him, or else........Crafty. Shikena. afis PS: I'm still looking for Abimbola's Ifa poetry.

--- On Mon, 4/5/10 12. from Dr. Valentine Ojo <valojo@md.metrocast.net> reply-to valojo@md.metrocast.net to NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com, odidere2001@yahoo.com, Batokkinc@aol.com, hide Adeniran Adeboye <aadeboye@mac.com>, details 5 cc Abraham Madu <abraham.madu@yahoo.com>, Apr (2 Bimbola Adelakun <adunnibabe@yahoo.com>, days ago) Emmanuel Babatunde <babemman2000@gmail.com>, Pius Adesanmi <piusadesanmi@yahoo.com>, Dele Olawole <theoracle@africaservice.com> date 5 April 2010 20:17 RE: Odu Ifa Ose Meji [ON IFA LITERATURE,LIKELY subject TO BE THE WORLD'S MOST EXTENSIVE
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COLLECTION OF LITERARY TEXTS IN STRUCTURE] mailed-by md.metrocast.net Images from this sender are always displayed. Don't display from now on. Arakunrin Toyin Please tell me all what you wrote below is

ONE

Adepoju: not for real!

That a Yoruba man could write this disparagingly of the Ifa Corpus in the name of "scholarship" left me speechless and gasping for words! What a waste of talent! Sugbon sa, "alaso ni o ma pe aso re ni akisa!"

If this is how our best minds think of one of the best things that ever came out of the Black mind, the Yoruba Ifa Corpus, then the Black race is indeed doomed! By which criteria did you conclude that the Ifa Corpus is poetically and linguistically inferior to the Bible or the Qumran? That would interest me most since I am also in the field of languages... Would you ever suggest that "new verses" be added to the Bible and to the Qumran in order to make them more "relevant" to the "realities" of today? Why then to the Yoruba Ifa Corpus which is possibly older than either the recitations in the Qumran or the Bible? You will find a rarely more "erotic" passage in any writing than the "Songs of Solomon" in the Bible... Frankly, I do not quite get the point that you are trying to make in this your write-up below. Dr. Tall 13. from oladimejiesuola@yahoo.com reply-to NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com to NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com hide date 5 April 2010 19:35 details 5 Re: [NIgerianWorldForum] Fwd: Odu Ifa Ose Meji [ON IFA Apr (2 LITERATURE,LIKELY TO BE THE WORLD'S MOST days subject EXTENSIVE COLLECTION OF LITERARY TEXTS IN ago) ONE STRUCTURE] <NIgerianWorldForum.yahoogroups.com> Filter messages mailing list from this mailing list
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Valentine Timbers,

Ojo MD

mailed-by Signed by unsubscribe

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One thing mitigating our progress In Sub-Saharan Africa is that we don't search enough. I have estab- lished that Ifa is 100 percent Judaism, and all the religions of the world originated or has link with Africa. To support my point, Solomon said I am a black man in the book of Solomon Chpt. 1 Vs. 5. I have also established that all the Kings in Israel were black. What this group discuss should do is to encourage reading by Nigerians. Every local Govt. Must have a library. But I dislike a forum where participants abuse each other as I've seen here. Thanks, Ayodabo Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T 14. from Dr. Valentine Ojo <valojo@md.metrocast.net> reply-to naijaintellects@googlegroups.com to NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com cc oladimejiesuola@yahoo.com date 5 April 2010 22:31 [Naijaintellects] RE: Fwd: Odu Ifa Ose Meji [ON IFA hide LITERATURE,LIKELY TO BE THE WORLD'S MOST subject details 5 EXTENSIVE COLLECTION OF LITERARY TEXTS IN Apr (2 ONE STRUCTURE] days ago) <naijaintellects.googlegroups.com> Filter messages from this mailing list mailing list mailed-by groups.bounces.google.com Signed by googlegroups.com unsubscribe Unsubscribe from this mailing list Images from this sender are always displayed. Don't display from now on. "But I dislike a forum where participants abuse each other as I've seen here. Thanks, Ayodabo " Mr. Oladimeji Esuola:

Then please go and start your own forum where participants don't abuse each other. It's that simple really! Abi na by force?

I do not think anyone has ever come to beg you to participate in these forums where people abuse each other - since you obviously live in a world where people don't ever abuse each
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other? Or you don't like the world either - because there are people who abuse each other regularly all over the world and not only on this forum! Don't kid yourself, mista - you are no better or worse than those who participate on these forums abuse and all! Abuse is also a part of human existence - take it or leave it. And there are worse things human beings do to each other than abuse each other!

Dr. Tall Timbers, MD

Valentine

Ojo

15. from maxima1757@yahoo.com to NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com, odidere2001@yahoo.com, Batokkinc@aol.com, Adeniran Adeboye <aadeboye@mac.com>, cc Abraham Madu <abraham.madu@yahoo.com>, Bimbola Adelakun <adunnibabe@yahoo.com>, hide Emmanuel Babatunde <babemman2000@gmail.com>, details Pius Adesanmi <piusadesanmi@yahoo.com>, 13:32 (17 hours Dele Olawole <theoracle@africaservice.com> ago) date 6 April 2010 13:32 Re: [NIgerianWorldForum] RE: Odu Ifa Ose Meji [ON IFA LITERATURE,LIKELY TO BE THE WORLD'S MOST subject EXTENSIVE COLLECTION OF LITERARY TEXTS IN ONE STRUCTURE] mailed-by yahoo.com Signed by yahoo.com Images are not displayed. Display images below - Always display images from maxima1757@yahoo.com The problem with minds like Adepoju's is that they mix apples and oranges and then they want oranges to be measured by apple standards. This is the european trick that has been used to demonize other cultures and then to exploit their peoples and lands, and then steal from the cultures. He mixes the standards of a novel (a story of fiction) with a body of work that celebrates man's relationship with God and with life. He uses words like "fictive" for words like "metaphorical". He does not seem to see that one is very different from the other and he claims being "linguistic". A description of a "skin of bronze" in the bible means a person has
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bronze metal as skin? and is that actually "fictive?" Or a description of "hair of lambs wool" means the person is a lamb? Or that there is a lamb that talks?. This is part of the psuedoscience that has been used to call Afrikans monkeys and some real fools agree. e.t.c. The real problem is that people with sense dignify nonsense by giving it attention... Those who have ears ... O.E. 16. from Abraham Madu <abraham.madu@yahoo.com> maxima1757@yahoo.com, IgboEvents@yahoogroups.com, to NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com, valojo@md.metrocast.net, hide toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com details date 6 April 2010 14:03 14:03 (17 Re: [NIgerianWorldForum] RE: Odu Ifa Ose Meji [ON IFA hours LITERATURE,LIKELY TO BE THE WORLD'S MOST subject ago) EXTENSIVE COLLECTION OF LITERARY TEXTS IN ONE STRUCTURE] mailed-by yahoo.com Signed by yahoo.com Images from this sender are always displayed. Don't display from now on. The mixture of Orange and lemon is equal to lemonade. or should we say apples and orange mixed gives orangapple.It is the mixture we are all drinking on this earth. I am trying to teach the students about The Travels of Marco Polo.Approximately 150 variants in various languages are known to exist. We should not worry ,as time goes there will be an improvements and corrections made. Ya gazie A.A.Madu 17. afis <odidere2001@yahoo.com> to maxima1757@yahoo.com, hide naijapolitics@yahoogroups.com, details TalkNigeria@yahoogroups.com, 14:16 (16 Odua <omoodua@yahoogroups.com> hours toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com, ago) Batokkinc@aol.com, Adeniran Adeboye <aadeboye@mac.com>, Abraham Madu <abraham.madu@yahoo.com>,
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Bimbola Adelakun <adunnibabe@yahoo.com>, Emmanuel Babatunde <babemman2000@gmail.com>, Pius Adesanmi <piusadesanmi@yahoo.com>, Dele Olawole <theoracle@africaservice.com>, odidere2001@yahoo.com date 6 April 2010 14:16 Re: [NIgerianWorldForum] RE: Odu Ifa Ose Meji [ON IFA LITERATURE,LIKELY TO BE THE subject WORLD'S MOST EXTENSIVE COLLECTION OF LITERARY TEXTS IN ONE STRUCTURE] mailed-by yahoo.com Signed by yahoo.com Images from this sender are always displayed. Don't display from now on. Dear O.E.: We need to respond to these Christians and muslims, I think it's about time we set the record straight. When we respond to a Brother like Toyin Adepoju, indirectly we are explaining to the World our traditional and cultural values that are now been relegated to the dustbin of history by the Europeanized Africans. We're telling them "enough is enough", worship your Jesu Christi and Muhammad's Allah, and leave our "Ifa olokun" alone. You Christians cannot hate your heritage to the extent of destroying it. Haba, akiifi owo osi juwe ile baba eni. What does it take away from a Christian or a Muslim to mind his/her business while the harmless Ifa followers do their thing? Nothing. The same attitude that has created havoc among Christians and Muslims worldwide, is now been directed at the indigeneous religion. O.E., there is a need for us to respond, and to keep responding. If we keep quiet our African religions may disappear. You what O.E.? I keep wondering if Allah and Jesu Christi are really that powerful, why are the followers always looking for recruits, abi na foot soldiers in the Kingdom their Gods? Who are they preparing to fight at their Heaven's
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gates? Would there be Nuclear bombs used in these their heaven's wars? And finally, who goes to hell, is it the Muslim or the "Kiriyo" (xtians)? Logically both Muslims and Christians cannot end up in Heaven, and both can't inherit 70 virgins from New York City. One gotta give. If Allah says if you don't worship Him you'll go to hell, and if Jesu Christi insists only thru him can one reach Heaven. So, who is right and who's Hell-bound? Shikena. afis PS: Don't no one come out swinging Psalms at me!! 18. maxima1757@yahoo.co m to date subject mailed-by Signed by NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com, IgboEvents@yahoogroups.com, hide valojo@md.metrocast.net, details toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com 14:21 6 April 2010 14:21 (16 Re: [NIgerianWorldForum] RE: Odu Ifa Ose Meji [ON hours IFA LITERATURE,LIKELY TO BE THE WORLD'S ago) MOST EXTENSIVE COLLECTION OF LITERARY TEXTS IN ONE STRUCTURE] yahoo.com yahoo.com

Images are not displayed. Display images below - Always display images from maxima1757@yahoo.com As long as we are honest that lemonade is lemonade and as long as we don't try to treat apple or orange as lemonade, then we should be ok. It is however dishonest at best, and very dangerous at worst, for us to use the measures of lemonade to deal with orange or apple. It has elements of apple and orange, but it is neither. That has been the deadly weapon used by europeans against us. Only these days, the weapons fashioned by europeans now use their "PhDs" "MDs", e.t.c. to do the same things the europeans did to us. europeans depicted our own tools as art at best, or "fetish" because they are totally ignorant of these things. At the same time, they are very dismissively condescending. It is tantamount to we calling their cars and guns art or "fetish" because we have no knowledge or understanding of these things. The real problem is that the ignorant (who think they know) among us agree with them. But we know that the Ogberi (ignorant) has no jurisdiction making decisions on things that Awo (professionals) should know.
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We cannot afford the same arrant ignorance. O.E. 19. maxima1757@yahoo.com afis <odidere2001@yahoo.com>, naijapolitics@yahoogroups.com, to TalkNigeria@yahoogroups.com, Odua <omoodua@yahoogroups.com> toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com, Batokkinc@aol.com, Adeniran Adeboye <aadeboye@mac.com>, Abraham Madu <abraham.madu@yahoo.com>, cc Bimbola Adelakun <adunnibabe@yahoo.com>, Emmanuel Babatunde <babemman2000@gmail.com>, hide details Pius Adesanmi <piusadesanmi@yahoo.com>, 17:38 (13 Dele Olawole <theoracle@africaservice.com>, hours ago) odidere2001@yahoo.com date 6 April 2010 17:38 Re: [NIgerianWorldForum] RE: Odu Ifa Ose Meji [ON IFA LITERATURE,LIKELY TO BE THE WORLD'S MOST subject EXTENSIVE COLLECTION OF LITERARY TEXTS IN ONE STRUCTURE] mailedyahoo.com by Signed yahoo.com by Images are not Display images below - Always display images from maxima1757@yahoo.com Dear Afis, Good morning to you and yours. Absolutely! We must respond; but how? The reason we call their cars tools is that they show and use and celebrate their cars, competing in the market of human utilization. We don't try to describe a car (which we can say they worship to the tune of over 2 trillion dollars a year all over the world and which takes human sacrifices to the tune of over 40,000 people, men women and children in accidents, every year in the U.S. alone, e.t.c.) to those who have no concept of a car, we show it to them. The same thing we must do with our own tools of relating with the universe and its Source/Creator. For example, an iroke is an iroke, there is no european or eurocentric medical, engineering or cultural equivalent. So, we show it more, use it more and
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create an economic system of prosperity around it and so many of our own tools (so that our own divinities - concepts - will support us). In Yoruba as you know, we say, "Omode ko mo oogun, o npee ni efo" For some examples: ... they changed day into night by declaring that the day starts at 12 midnight, creating their time pieces and making the rules, regardless of when the sun shines. ... they changed the year into their own by naming two more moons to the ten normal moons. ... they decided to measure distance with their own units (imperial - inches, and centimeters metric) ... they harnessed Oya in making aeroplanes and other aerodynamic concepts, e.t.c. In all these things we agreed with them and even helped them improve or even invent the tools and instruments to show these things. And what does not depend on using these things these days? What is most interesting is that these same concepts and principles are not the exclusives of any one group. Therefore, we must build our concepts, instruments, tools, gadgets, clothes, foods, plates, pots, pans, e.t.c. based on the mathematics of Ifa, the technology of Ogun and the creative energies of Esu. We must use these to harness the elements (Oya (aerodynamics), Sango (electricity), Osun (temperature and hemodynmics), Yemoja (water and all that goes with it), Olokun (same as Yemoja plus production), Ososi (Healing), even Babaluaiye in epidemiology and health, e.t.c.) and bend them to our service like they use on their aeroplanes, ships, cars, guns and hospitals. Then we would not have to worry about responding to those who are ignorant among us. Because many of their suppositions will be then stupid even to them. Or how would you look to yourself, if you were to say a car is nothing but "fetish" or "voodoo" (a very condescending mispronunciation of Vodun)? Some would see these statements as taunts, but they are not, by any stretch of the imagination, because the mathematics, the technology and the creativity are all there if we look and learn (research and education) and build. Yes, we respond by making their lives depend on what we wear, eat, drink, build, say, think, feel and do, just like they have now done to us. Then we have responded.

And absolutely, Yes we can.

Ire o.

O.E. 20.
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from Babalawo <ifa145@yahoo.com> reply-to OmoOdua@yahoogroups.com to OmoOdua@yahoogroups.com date 6 April 2010 16:01 Re: [OmoOdua] Re: [NIgerianWorldForum] RE: Odu Ifa Ose hide Meji [ON IFA LITERATURE,LIKELY TO BE THE subject details WORLD'S MOST EXTENSIVE COLLECTION OF 16:01 (15 LITERARY TEXTS IN ONE STRUCTURE] hours ago) <OmoOdua.yahoogroups.com> Filter messages from this mailing list mailing list mailed-by returns.groups.yahoo.com Signed by yahoogroups.com unsubscribe Unsubscribe from this mailing list Images are not Display images below - Always display images from ifa145@yahoo.com displayed.

Its very simple; Christian faith is founded by the same people who are responsible for the segregation in modern main stream America. The same supremacy pours down to any other faith which may differentiate from their own. Protesting is not the answer nor is arguing, but rather acknowledging truth for what it is. Its another form of ethnocentrism which we understand is not the way of Ifa. In fact, it is the complete opposite. Muslims I believe is just the belief involved within their faith. For example, to a Muslim Alah is responsible for everything and they are disciplined to understand their own relation with Alah which any other faith seems completely foreign to them within belief and practice. I believe Muslim have more reasons to be the way they are than Christians because they follow in a humble disciplinary fashion. Against contrary belief terrorism is not within traditional Muslim practice, but where it is believed to be I believe terrorism is a disgrace and a sad event displayed by humanity and the greed which feeds away affecting us all socialisticly. We are all individuals and to see the same disease infecting the United States within segregation I can't fathom why people in Nigeria fall for the supremacy and choose to follow instead of lead. Many question only after being questioned which doubt is just another form of mind control. Next time someone ask you about Christianity just notice the probing and questioning involved which any educated individual can distinguish between honest interest and intentional brain washing. Why must they recruit? Is there power in numbers? Is this not the same way, "whites" make others feel as outsiders or foreighn? Ifa teaches us about wisdom; let us embrace Ifa once again and understand the obvious as it unfolds itself. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry 21. from Ayaba Bey <dr.ayaba@gmail.com> to Yoruba Affairs <yorubaaffairs@googlegroups.com> cc Batokkinc@aol.com,
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hide details 6 Apr (2 days ago)

toyin adepoju <toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com> date 6 April 2010 20:24 subject Re: Yoruba Affairs - Re: [OmoOdua] Odu Ifa Ose Meji mailed- gmail.com by Signed gmail.com by Thank you, as I could not have said it better. Having been born and raised in the US and participating in the ritual of baptism in the so called Christian Church(so called, because it does not reflect the idea of the "Christ" spirituality, of its origins, as revealed in ancient Kemit or Ethiopia) This is not a people who ever acknowledge on a public level, the contributions of our ancestors to sacred teachings, scientific advancements or knowledge of any kind. If it had not been for Cheik Ante Diop, Dr. Ben Jochannan, Dr. John Henri Clarke,Dr. Theo Obenga, Dr. Jacob Carruthers, Dr. Asa Hilliard and Ivan Van Sertima and others.http://www.ascac.org/commissions/research.html I had an experience when I was 11 years old that led me to seek answers to questions that children are discouraged to ask. Eventually I was actually invisibly or spiritually pinned against the wall in my apartment and given instructions and information on my life's future events. Whether it was ancestors or deities or angels I do not say because the information was not identified as such. I knew nothing about those things then. It was only after another similar experience in Guyana that the Yoruba Culture came into my life. I was not seeking it. As I began an extensive course of study and research, that is lasting unto this day, I gained answers to questions about traditions in my own family from my Great Grand Mother on down to my Mother that they did not even know why they did what they did, except to say Mama did it. From that I studied the methodology that the US, England, Arabia and all the invaders use whenever they engage in conquering a people and their land. Religion, the gun and the appearance of helping them to recover. One generation is destroyed and the next generation is "rescued". It is a diabolical many tentacled method of engagement, but it has worked and continues to work. I am 65 and in 1970's they brought AIDS to the Motherland and about 10 years ago George Bush gave free pills to Uganda. So they see America as the hero. The great giver of hope. You cannot argue with that when you do not know or want to know the entire story. Go online and look up World Population Control Board Rockefeller Foundation... I am not saying do not accept the help. I AM saying I know there is something in the other hand, because history has shown me that something else is coming. Then what followed the new religion? (which is really old and originated in Africa anyway) The psychological ramifications are endless. Why is it that no one else is sending missionaries all over the world to dismantle other people's religions except Christians and Muslims? I do want to say here that some elements practiced in some indigenous religions and cultures were inhumane, but much of that was due to having been forced away from the original foundation of understanding, as well as, the barren environments over time, that has a tendency to push people into the most basic and barren survival responses. I personally practice elements of faiths that pertain and subscribe to love, peace, higher consciousness, seeing and seeking truth in all people. I do not prescribe to slavery in any form, war, starvation, neglect, deceit, fear, evil intentions, selfishness, ego centered behavior, lies, lack of compassion from anyone
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or religion. Nor do I see removing the sacredness principle in favor of an intellectual one from our traditional practices. We will not go on the Rosicrucian website and see any intellectual dismantling of their secret(sacred) sciences and systems. Their research to uncover this knowledge goes back to our ancestors and ancient traditions uncovered in Africa. Nor do they relegate the metaphysical ideologies and systems to poetry and literature. The way to truly learn about these things and the authenticity, relevance or reality is to become initiated, to learn these traditions and righteously apply the principles to ones' life. Although I am 3/4ths Native American my African ancestor came here on one of the last slave ships. She was a feisty woman who dressed in white from head to hem. She was forced to have babies for a man named Hill Carter, the Grandfather of Robert E. Lee. I can only imagine what it must have been like to see a white baby come out of your body. But now we gladly have babies for them. We gladly march forward to buy and use skin whitening creams, hair chemicals to straighten our hair, surgery to our noses and lips, genitals, and the "practice" of homosexuality as a lifestyle as opposed to a response to a more traumatic experience, whether in the womb or after birth. Many caucasians do just the opposite. They buy sun tan oils, lie down in tanning beds, get hormonal injections in their lips and hips and now they even have a product called Bootylicious. Why? They admire our beauty and we admire theirs. CRAZY? No! Programming. Our women, especially, demonstrate to their children by what they wear and do to their hair, that white is beautiful. (Beyonce is a good example of that) So do not get upset when we see so called Black men with white women. The God they gave our terrorized ancestors to serve was and is white, so do not get angry with those of us who have escaped the illusion of a God that was handed to us on a platter of blood. We must at least look at the traditions of spirituality that our ancestors practiced before the Maafa because the God that created us and that we created is not a God of wrath and death, but one of Love and continuous self elevation. It can only manifest through our acts and deeds. So according to ancient teachings, the way we act is the God we serve. Take the time to study and see that ALL indigenous people on this planet share many similar ideals and rituals that we practice, as a means of representing our connection to the indwelling intelligence that the Euro now has us calling by the name God.(Which has its origins from another people) The European mind calls all of us Ethnic groups, but not himself. Since the origins of the Helios Biblos (The Book of Light) or Bible are from ancient people of Kemit, Ethiopia and not European, it is safe to quote: "My people are destroyed for LACK OF KNOWLEDGE" Hosea 4:6 So let's not stop at a point but continue along the lines of knowledge that leads us to Sankofa..."return and get what we left behind." For we are our ancestors returned and that is why we have the duty to return our Mother's purse that was stolen a long time ago and must NEVER give up the quest or replace it with someone else's Mama's purse. Our people have and are still suffering in Africa. But it is time to hear the stories of our people from all over this globe. We are related to one another and have no idea who our cousins and nieces and nephews are and perhaps never will. That alone is one of the greatest injustices and tragedies of the enslavement and kidnapping of our ancestors. The other is the stripping of our minds and memories of our culture and spiritual knowledge. So, I would weigh very seriously the idea of just what and how much we should "share with the world".
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The third is that it continues to this day. Only now it is called education and democracy. (Demo...cracy) (Demo is also the root for demon) Study to learn the connection between what was and what is. As I told my African brothers 30 years ago, if you want to see what Africa will look like 25 years from now, look at the black community here. We are the experiment and what they have learned about us will be exported throughout the African world. Love you all, Keep communicating until thinking becomes a criminal act. Odabo, Mama Ayaba That which you seek is seeking you. Dr.Ayaba Bey,PhD Divinity/Metaphysics 804-329-8778 (H) 317-5363177 (Fax) Universal Truth Afrikan Temple Sankofa Institue for Esoteric Science & Spiritual Growth

April 2010

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