Yiorgos Vassilandonakis

Music Department University of California, Berkeley 104 Morrison Hall Berkeley, California 94720 USA yiorgos@earthlink.net

An Interview with Philippe Leroux

Among the most respected French contemporary artists of his generation, Philippe Leroux (see Figure 1) is a widely performed and commissioned composer, as well as one of the most sought-out composition teachers in Paris. Born on 24 September 1959 in Boulogne sur Seine, France, Mr. Leroux graduated from Paris Conservatoire Superieur, where he studied with Ivo Malec, Claude Ballif, Pierre Schaeffer, and Guy Reibel. In parallel, he also studied with Olivier Messiaen, Franco Donatoni, Betsy Jolas, Jean-Claude Eloy, and Iannis Xenakis. In 1993, he was awarded the Prix de Rome, a two-year residency at the Villa Medici in Italy. His oeuvre of over 40 works encompasses several genres: symphonic, electroacoustic, electronic, and vocal and chamber music. (See Tables 1 and 2.) These works have been commissioned by such prestigious institutions as the French Ministry of Culture, IRCAM, the Koussevitsky Foundation, the Radio France Symphony Orchestra, the Sudwestfunk Baden-Baden, INA-GRM, Ensemble Intercontemporain, BIT 20, Icare and Ictus, the San Francisco Contemporary Music Players, Les Percussions du Strasbourg, and several other French and foreign institutions. His music has been featured in international festivals, including the Festival Donaueschingen, Presences de Radio France, Bath, Agora, Roma-Europa, Nuove Synchronie (Milan), Musica, Stockholm ISCM, Barcelona, Musiques en Scene (Lyon, France), Manca, Bergen, Tempo (Berke` ley), BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra, and others. He has received numerous awards, including the Herve Dugardin Prize (1994), the SACEM award (2003), and most recently the Arthur Honegger Prize 2007 for his contribution to French contemporary music. Philippe Leroux has taught the IRCAM yearlong composition course (20012006) and has taught at McGill University (20052006). He has been a guest lecturer at Bergen Grieg Academy; Columbia University; University of California,
Computer Music Journal, 32:3, pp. 1124, Fall 2008 c 2008 Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

Berkeley; Fondation Royaumont; the American Conservatoire in Fontainebleau; and the Paris and Lyon Conservatoires Superieurs, among others. He has written numerous articles on contemporary music, and his work Continuo(ns) was the subject of a study published by Editions LHarmattan (Vilella 1999). In 2007, he was composer-in-residence with the Orchestre Nationale de Lorraine. His long association with IRCAM from the perspective of both his pedagogical role and his experience in realizing several projects there, combined with his unique approach to the use of technology as a compositional tool totally integrated within his own compositional process and thinking, allows him a unique perspective on the present and future of computer and electro-acoustic music creation. Although I have known Philippe Leroux well for several years, having studied composition with him in Paris for a few of those years and having enjoyed many insightful conversations with him, I was particularly interested in spending some time exploring his thoughts on music in the directed context of an interview. What was intended to be a single session turned into two sessions, separated by six months and an ocean. Our first meeting took place in March 2006 at his house in Aulney-sous-Bois, a quiet suburb north of Paris, where Mr. Leroux lives with his wife and two young children. In October 2006, this time at my apartment in Berkeley, a second follow-up session took place, after the premiere of his new work De La Texture by the San Francisco Contemporary Music Players. Both times, Philippe was insightful, witty, and extremely generous with his time. We spoke in French, because I wanted to capture Philippes unique way of expression in his native tongue, and I later translated the interview into English, trying to capture and preserve as much of his personal way of expression as possible. Vassilandonakis: Shall we start at the beginning of it all? You belong to a generation of composers that did not grow up with technology available to them, at least not in the way that younger generations are exposed to it now. How did you get initiated?

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Figure 1. Photograph of Philippe Leroux (credit: Danielle Androff).

Leroux: I would say concurrently. I did get all the traditional training, but I was lucky to be exposed to an environment where multiple approaches and influences were encouraged. I had access to an electronic studio, and I took advantage of it. Vassilandonakis: You also caught the wave of the spectral school. How did it influence your development? Leroux: It would be pointless to deny the influence of the spectral school on my music, especially given the time and place of my formative years as a composer. It was almost impossible to not be influenced by the spectralists, because their approach was very fresh and exciting when it came along. I have great admiration for Gerard Grisey and Tristan Murail. Vassilandonakis: Yet, there is more to it, isnt there? Leroux: There was a lot more going on in Paris than just spectral music. I have been greatly influenced by ` musique concrete and Pierre Schaeffers notion of the musical object. Also, Xenakis has also influenced me a lot, especially his work on mathematics and physics formulas. And Ligeti, for his work on textures and Francois Bayle, for his music of fixed sounds. From the younger composers of that period, I was also impressed by Michael Levinas, especially his orchestral piece Ouverture pour une fete etrange, which has given me a unique vision of the orchestra. Leroux: Well, yes, we did not have laptops and cell phones as kids, but when I was growing up, audio technology was starting to spread into middle-class homes. My older brother had a Revox G36 tube tape recorder, an antique, on which I made my first attempts at tape splicing. That got me interested in listening to electroacoustic music records, which were actually not hard to find at the time, and I really liked them, especially Francois Bayle. Later I enrolled at Conservatoire National Superieur de Musique de Paris (CNSM) in Pierre Schaeffers class. Vassilandonakis: That sounds very much unlike the beaten path of composition training. So, technology came before counterpoint and harmony? Vassilandonakis: You are suggesting approaches to composition that fall outside the more-orless traditional practice of manipulating pitch and rhythmic cells. You are clearly attracted to composing directly with sound, as opposed to a representation of sound. Leroux: Absolutely. This comes directly from working in the studio. Generating sounds with synthesizers gives you a lot of insight into the structure of sound. Equally influential was, of course, the work of Xenakis and Ligeti on sonic masses. Vassilandonakis: Another important aspect of your music seems to be the perpetual, yet very tightly controlled, transformation of your musical material

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Table 1. List of Works by Philippe Leroux Containing Electronics

Title Apocalypsis Voi(Rex) M.E. M Image a Rameau La Guerre du Faire Hommage a Andrei Roublev Tournoi La Vide et la Vague Intercession Year 2005 2002 1999 1997 1995 1992 1992 1989 1986 1981 Instrumentation four singers (two sopranos, mezzo-soprano and baritone), 16 instruments, and real-time electronics amplified female voice, six instruments, and real-time electronics fixed-media electronics two pianos, two percussion, and real-time electronics four MIDI wind controllers, or two MIDI keyboard players controlling four synthesizers fixed-media electronics fixed-media electronics fixed-media electronics fixed-media electronics fixed-media electronics

in ways that are easily perceivable. I get the sense that every aspect of the material is used to its full extent, and yet the music still manages to feel free and almost improvisational. How do you do it? Leroux: There are several things. First of all, I wish to engage the listener in the unfolding of the music. I try to make sure that the listener can follow what is going on by creating an evolution of elements in a continuous fashion. Secondly, I place myself not only as a composer, but also as a listener in the process of active listening to sequences of music. And by continuously listening to the material, I fix a lot of things as a result to my responses as a listener, which gives a very natural aspect to the sonic sequences. Vassilandonakis: It is interesting that you mentioned continuous fashion. Linear evolution and continuously morphing sound seem to be important to you. There is a perpetual movement of sound in your works, both in the vertical (pitch) space, as well as the temporal space, and the physical space. Leroux: Yes, it is by studying sound that I realized that sound is never static but always evolves in time in some aspect, even when this change is imperceptible. This notion of perceptual motion has influenced me a lot, and I have integrated it in all levels of construction in my music. Vassilandonakis: This interest of yours in continuity and transformation is not limited to what goes

Table 2. List of Recordings by Philippe Leroux

Leroux, M. Voi(Rex), Plus loin, M. 2004. Audio compact disc. Paris: Nocturne NTCD 358. Leroux, M. 1994. (d) Aller, AAA, Soufes, Ial. Audio compact disc. Paris: Grave GRCD 13. Leroux, M. 1993. Air. Audio compact disc. Vandoeuvre, France: Vandoeuvre 9508. Leroux, M. 2000. Continuo(ns), Fleuve, Air-Re, PPP, Phonie douce. Audio compact disc. Paris: MFA 216005. Leroux, M. N.d. Histoires anciennes. Recorded on LArt de la guitare contemporaine. (Caroline Delume, guitar.) Audio compact disc. Paris: Concord ARN 60439. ` Leroux, M. N.d. Je brule, dit-elle un jour a un camarade. Audio compact disc. Paris: Harmonia Mundi ED 13019. Leroux, M. M. 1998. Audio compact disc. Paris: IRCAM CD 008. Leroux, M. 1998. PPP. Audio compact disc. Paris: MOTUS CD M298004. Leroux, M. N.d. M. E. (excerpts). Recorded on CD-ROM Musique electro acoustique: Faire, entendre, connatre. Paris: Hyptique. Leroux, M. N.d. Voi(Rex). Interactive CD/DVD. Paris: IRCAM Project Musique Lab 2.

on within a piece, but also across different works, and in several levels. It is well known that the titles of some of your pieces form a phrase. . . Leroux: . . . yes, which is known only to me. The majority of my seemingly mysterious titles will eventually chain together into a phrase of around

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thirty works, which I will not unveil until those works are all finished, provided I live long enough to complete it, that is. It is a sort of semantic game on one level, but also, it manifests my interest in leaving a unified body of work, a complete picture of who I am. It will all make sense one day. Vassilandonakis: How do you think about time, both musical and physical? There seem to be places in your music where repetitive figures or process-based passages intentionally distort the perception of time. I have a feeling that nothing is too short or too long. How do you do it? Is it just intuition, or is there a secret? Leroux: I imagine an elastic time, a little like the one described by the Navajo Indians, a time that comprises fulgurant accelerations that can be followed by periods of temporal pauses (lulls). I listen to time. What takes me the longest in the process of composing is to listen and re-listen to what I just wrote in the time frame of the piece. Vassilandonakis: How long do you typically spend working on a piece? Youve mentioned that you were working for 20 months on a 20-minute piece. How do you sustain interest and energy, and how does such a long time spent on a single project affect its quality? Leroux: I try to spend as much time as I can with each piece before letting it go into the world, so to speak. That allows me to re-read, to correct, to refine the details, to add little things that enrich the musical discourse in a manner that allows for as many levels of perception of the work as possible during the process of composing. I like to have a profound understanding of the piece; it is a daily two-way communication that I sustain with it. That allows me to get to compositional levels that are just not possible to attain when you compose something fast. Then again, having said that, in the real world, some works are written a lot faster than that. Vassilandonakis: Tell me more about the semantics of the titles. They are always unusual. There are often multiple meanings and ways they can be read, even a sonic aspect in the way they sound. Most,

if not all, of this gets lost in translation, and yet I would be very interested to hear your take on it. Are titles springboards, do they come after the piece, are they music themselves even, or do they just describe a process or thinking? Leroux: Each title possesses at least three levels of meaning. As you said, there is a literal level of meaning, one that makes reference to something else, another piece (of mine) or that of someone elses, the sense that comes from the phonemes per se. Vassilandonakis: And then, there is also a strong linguistic aspect in the way you make music. You seem to like using text a lot, and you have written extensively for the voice. I am especially attracted to the way you find technical ways and conceptual means of expression to realize and enhance ideas derived from the text. Leroux: When I was younger I wrote a lot, and later I decided not to write anything other than music, which tells you that the text is always there like an omnipresent background. My literary culture is that of the great classics authors and philosophers. I am familiar with modern literature, but my work and my two children do not leave me much time to follow it as closely as I would like to. I have also studied the texts of many different religious traditions and particularly orthodox theology, which has enriched me a great deal. Vassilandonakis: And where there is text, there is also some form of dramatic structure present, right? Leroux: Naturally. Even in something as simple as a sequence of two chords, there is drama, meaning that this notion is enclosed in any musical action. For me, drama is the moment that the direction is realized but it is never sealed. Nothing is definitely sealed. There is drama everywhere in my music, and at the same time one thing is always put to perspective by another thing. That is why I am still asking myself if opera is a genre that suits me. I will answer that question in the years to come. Vassilandonakis: You seem to import many concepts from other art forms. I assume you have devised some kind of linking mechanism, a process of transformation of ideas from other genres to the

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Figure 2. Transformation of Wacom tablet data in OpenMusic for Apocalypsis (2005).

musical domain. Are there models you import, or is it a random process? Leroux: No, it is not random at all. I am very interested in models, and I explore this idea of importing as you called it constantly in my music. I seek to approximate the most natural models, whether they are human or tree-like, or come from the constitution of matter or sound behavior. (In this case, I am influenced by Xenakis.) The models that are closest to me are without a doubt those that come from human gestures. Vassilandonakis: Are you referring to parts of Voi(Rex), where the singer is writing words in space and the sound diffusion trajectories are forming letters of the alphabet?

Leroux: That is a good example, but I have an even better one. For Apocalypsis, I used a Wacom tablet to capture certain letters of the alphabet in my own handwriting, and then I manipulated the resultant data in OpenMusic, turning it into pitch/rhythm patterns that were then manipulated further by either interpolation or by being mapped into different scales of pitch and rhythmic material. (See Figure 2.) That is exactly what we were talking about: Capturing a human gesture (in this case, my own handwriting) and turning it into a musical gesture. I have always tried to translate movement in my music. As Saint Augustine said, Music is the art of the right movement. And this movement finds its origins in the gestures of the human body or the human psychological behavior. I use the physical

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Figure 3. Introduction to Voi(Rex).

aspect of these gestures to make the listener sense where they come from, and also to enlarge the field of the traditional concert space. This action then creates an additional connection between the physical world and the musical material. The gesture is prolonged into the space, and the space is written into the score. One can go on creating associations between such actions ad infinitum. In Apocalypsis, I took the spatialization pattern of sound (pattern of sound movement in a surround sound speaker system) from Voi(Rex) (see Figure 3), which is in itself a sonic drawing into ` space of the word: lumiere (light) and transformed it into a musical sequence by translating it into pitches and rhythms. (See Figure 4.) This becomes a quite intricate process, but it supports the way I work, in the sense that there are multiple layers of meaning and complex associations. Vassilandonakis: The connection between Voi(Rex) and Apocalypsis is certainly a special one that I would like to explore with you further, yet it is only one of many instances of your pieces that are connected to or derived from each other. Is this because you feel that a particular concept needs to be taken even further than the confines of a single piece?

Leroux: Sometimes, I like to re-incarnate the same ideas in a different sonic environment, as in the case of M (for two pianos, two percussions, and electronics), which became m M for orchestra. Other times, as with Voi(r)ex and Apocalypsis, it acts more like a compositional concept. How can I use the compositional method of one piece to generate a second piece? Vassilandonakis: Lets talk about Apocalypsis. Leroux: While composing Voi(Rex), I started to make notes at the bottom of each score page, documenting the musical operations being carried out. This step-by-step chronological identification of the composing process was used so I could trace my steps while working on the piece, and also as a way to scan and check things over an extended period of gestation of this piece. Without knowing it, I had invented a new way of reflecting and acting upon my materials. Also, between 20032006, my work became the subject of a multi-disciplinary research project crossing musicology and cognitive anthropology, led by Nicolas Donin, Jacques Theureau, and Samuel Goldszmidt. Their goal was to investigate the

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Figure 4. Screen shot of OpenMusic patch in which spatialization of Voi(Rex) is transformed into pitches and rhythms.

complexity of the human activity, and from their perspective, musical composition was viewed as a particular human activity like any other, as one would study the way in which a farmer plows his field. This approach appealed to me at a time when, in Europe particularly, we need to free ourselves from this mystification concerning the concept of creator. They understood that artistic creation was an extremely rich phenomenon. The time spent on the project gave me a kind of clarity about the way I work, and triggered a process of autocognition that would last a long time. At the end of the project, which resulted in the publication of a Hypermedia album on Voi(Rex), the concept for Apocalypsis was ripe within me as well, as the

idea of composing a new piece using the collected information as its compositional material. It is essentially a documentation of the compositional process of Voi(Rex). The form of Apocalypsis follows chronologically the different compositional operations of Voi(Rex) and the main ideas of the large-scale plan and certain steps along its realization. Apocalypsis is in seven movements, each modeled after the shape of one (or more) letter(s) from the title of the work (I: A, II: p, III: o, IV: c, V:a-l-y-p-s, VI: i, VII: s). The proportions of the movements are derived from an average spectral centroid timbral analyzer patch (written in Max/MSP) of a time-compressed recording of Voi(Rex). (See Figure 5.)

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Figure 5. Max/MSP timbral analyzer patch.

Vassilandonakis: So the use of text and phonemes remains important conceptually. Leroux: Absolutely. In fact, the text sung by the singers is also based on a sort of compositional diary kept while composing Voi(Rex). To go even further, the 26 main chords of Voi(Rex) are mapped to the 26 letters of the alphabet and generate new harmonies for Apocalypsis. This is achieved by interpolating each of the 26 chords with the shape of the letter of the alphabet corresponding to that number, and then selecting the central chord of the interpolation process. (See Figure 6.) Then, I created a tree of chords that classifies the derived chords according to their harmonicity/inharmonicity. Thus, the tree becomes a sort of hierarchical harmonic roadmap (see Figure 7).

Vassilandonakis: So, this would be an example of using a tree-like model. And, I am assuming that this meticulous procedure of transforming elements of one piece into different elements of the other is not limited to large-scale form, but it also penetrates smaller-scale parameters. Leroux: Yes, it is a consistent compositional action. It seemed natural to me to morph patterns from one domain to the other. For example, it seems quite logical to visualize extracting the spatialization data of the first movement of Voi(Rex) and converting it into pitch data, so that what was the trajectory of the sound in space is transformed into a trajectory of pitches, a melody, or, finding a way to associate the shapes of the letters in the second movement with melody profiles.

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Figure 6. Screen shot of OpenMusic chord interpolator for Apocalypsis (2005).

Vassilandonakis: How many of these relationships of processes and materials do you expect the listener to perceive? Assuming they know both works well, of course. Leroux: Although related, the two pieces sound extremely different to me, both sonically and formally. I do not expect people to hear these procedures. They are for me to work with. The two pieces share only a limited proportion of common sound material, and they are built very differently. One can hope, however, that the listener will perceive that they are both works by the same composer. Vassilandonakis: Did you develop all the analytical and generative software tools yourself?

Leroux: No, I was working with a technical assistant, as I have many times in the past. On Apocalypsis, it was Alexis Baskind, at IRCAM. His role is to be perfectly up-to-date with the current development of all the software. He knows it all. That would be practically impossible for a composer, because that demands too much time devoted to just that, and the composer has to save it for composing. At times, it happens that the assistant proposes original ideas for use of software. In such a case, it becomes more of a collaboration. But it is always the composer that makes the compositional decisions. In the case of my work, I make all sounds myself, and the assistant helps me more with the concert patches and with the creation of more

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Figure 7. Chord tree that classies derived chords according to their harmonicity/inharmonicity for Apocalypsis.

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complex tools for which I turn to him. This type of work is extraordinary, because it allows one to explore places where one would not be able to go otherwise. Vassilandonakis: So do you not keep up with new software? Leroux: I am interested in new possibilities, but no, I do not spend my time trying out all the new bells and whistles. Some of the software on my laptop are even older versions. I try to save most of my time for composition. Vassilandonakis: But when you do use software, what do you use at home? Do you use software in the compositional process or just in the realization process? Leroux: I mainly work with Open Music, Pro Tools, AudioSculpt, Max/MSP, and Peak. I also work in very low-tech ways, with pencil and paper. Vassilandonakis: How do you reconcile these in your daily work? Do you work on the formal concepts first, or do you explore the technical possibilities? Leroux: I always work on both at the same time. I work on form and at the same time on sonic detail for example. That allows for the two worlds to inform and interpret each other, hand in hand. It is the best technique that I know; it allows one to be very focused and precise with detail on one hand, and on the other, to have a large-scale view of the work and know where it wants to go. Vassilandonakis: How do you approach using electronics, and how did that approach develop? Leroux: First of all, the use of electronics gave me the possibility of creating new sounds . . . then, as an extension of instrumental or orchestral timbre, an extension of possibilities of instruments or voices or of instrumental gestures, or even of treating the sound. Also, as a fusion of instrumental and electronic timbre, that gave birth to hybrid instruments or meta-instruments . . . and even later, the conceptual contribution, computer-aided composition, models (where electronics serve as a model for instrumental writing or the reverse), as

well as at the harmonic plan, and rhythmic, spatial, timbral, or formal level. Vassilandonakis: Is it fair to say that your musical personality has grown and shaped itself with technology becoming better, easier to work with, and a lot more available? Leroux: It is amazing, because at the time that my musical ideas were becoming very precise, the technological means were advancing. Before that, it was very complicated to make a mix if one wanted to be very precise in synchronizing events, whereas now the precision is extremely fine. Therefore, my music has evolved along with the technology, especially in the real-time issues. But I have the feeling that we are still in the prehistoric era, compared to what is coming. Vassilandonakis: How has it affected your instrumental composing? Leroux: Enormously. First, as you mentioned, I soon found myself composing my instrumental music with sounds or groups of sounds, rather than with notes, rhythms, and chords. In addition, the electroacoustic music practice took my interests to musical elements hardly explored until then, like dynamics, notions of textures, granulation, etc. Vassilandonakis: Is there something you are striving to achieve compositionally that you wish could be accommodated by technology not yet available? Leroux: Yes, for example analyzing a sonic structure in an intelligent manner, being able to decipher the different voices of a polyphonic texture, in the sense of notes as well as timbres within the different layers. That is very complex to do with computers, and yet our ear does it very naturally and effortlessly. Vassilandonakis: Where do you think the future of computer music is heading? Leroux: For me, the future of electronics lies in its very obliteration, meaning when we can do the most complex operations in the most easy and simple way, but that is still far from being the case. I always think of real time, which is for the moment still very approximate in the degree of precision of the writing.

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Vassilandonakis: Until then, how do you compensate? Do you use more sound files played back, as opposed to real time? Leroux: At the current state of technology available for real-time electronics, I use sound files if at all possible. I always go for the simplest solution first. If that is not enoughwhich is very oftenwell, then I work with real time. Vassilandonakis: But you have worked mostly at IRCAM, which is a bit of a utopian situation. It is not quite the same as having a complex electronic setup in the real world. Leroux: You are probably right. I have heard horror stories, but personally, up to now, even outside of IRCAM, I have never had problems, really. But then again, it is true that I always work with real professionals. For example, in the United States, I have worked with CNMAT at UC Berkeley and at Columbia University, and in Canada at the electronic studio at McGill in Montreal. Vassilandonakis: The electronics in your mixed pieces seem to be fully integrated with the instrumental timbres. In M for example, one would have to look for the speakers on stage to realize where things are coming from. I am assuming this is not by chance. Leroux: Yes, for M, I was aiming for a total fusion between the instruments and the electronics. But later, in subsequent performances of M, I tried other spatialization configurations, around the public for example, an approach that also works very well. I love the results with both approaches, so depending on the hall acoustics, I choose one or the other. Vassilandonakis: Tell me more about your long association with IRCAM. What is it like to have a center that is funded directly by the French government? Do the politics of such an affiliation get in the way of music? Leroux: It is amazing, an institution truly out of the ordinary. At an age where nothing matters other than what is profitable and commercial, IRCAM is the proof that governments can invest in values other than the immediate commercial. I

suppose we owe such a diversion from business as usual to a rare few politicians who believe in investing in culture as a motor of a society, and in doing so, creating new values in the long run. And also to Pierre Boulez, who founded it and has worked so hard to make sure it exists and lasts through the ever-changing fabric of government officials. Vassilandonakis: In the last five years, you have had major performances and premieres in the U.S. and Canada. How do you feel your music fares in such a different cultural environment? How do audiences react? I mean beyond the inbred composer circles. In France, there seems to be a specialized audience that attends contemporary music concerts and who knows the music and the language. Of course, it is a very different situation. I am curious on how you feel about American and Canadian audiences. Leroux: Frankly, each time has been fabulous. People have most often loved this music, even at times when it was included in concerts with pieces much easier to digest. That makes you stop and think, but it is a very complicated phenomenon to try to analyze what audiences respond to, and hopeless to even think of trying to manipulate it. What I love about North American audiences is that they seem to accept music as it is. They do not seem to look for a frame in which to classify the composer, as is often the case with European audiences. In Europe, a lot of people, unfortunately, listen to music that lies stylistically within the confines of music they know from the tradition, and anything new they hear has to go up against what they know already. The result is that there is always a mental screen between an unfamiliar piece of music and them. In America, the audience seems to be a lot more free, and this freedom appeals to me the most. Vassilandonakis: How about the performers and their response to your stylistic nuances? Leroux: I have met and worked with amazing musicians in the U.S. I am thinking of David Milnes in San Francisco, Michel Galantes in New York, and many others who are happy to be doing what

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they do and are passionate about their work. Then there are those who are bored with their life and their work. I have experienced a bit of both there. When musicians no longer wish to explore their instrument or discover new sounds or a new way of combining sounds, they start not playing well, and it becomes horrible, for them at first, and then for the composer and the audience. There are also financial issues that come into play. Nobody can make good music with only one rehearsal. Finally, the instrumentalists acquire a certain sound culture. a sort of contemporary performance practice; little by little it is no longer necessary to explain that a sul ponticello sound on the violin must really be alto sul ponticello (right on the bridge). The musicians feel it themselves. Vassilandonakis: How do you like to write for orchestra? It is a medium with such history and performance practice, and also musical hierarchy, that it is very difficult to be innovative today. Maybe some orchestras in Europe are better versed at performing new music than those in the U.S., but it is still difficult to have a truly progressive work well prepared. It just gets expensive. How do you approach the medium? Plus loin, for example, is a very idiomatic work for orchestra that respects the tradition of the ensemble but also makes innovations. Leroux: Yes, these are all realities of working with expensively run institutions that carry a 300-year cultural history. Also, there are the realities of effectively dealing with 80100 people, in both a musical and a social manner. Of my orchestral works, you know Plus Loin, but I have also in recent years written m M, a concerto grosso for orchestra, and Pour que les etres ne soient pas traites comme des marchandise for twelve voices, orchestra, and electronics. These three pieces are extremely different from each other in terms of orchestral writing. I would say that for the moment I am exploring the orchestra, I am building experiences with the orchestra. It seems to me that the orchestra should work with new textures, almost an idea of touching sound, but also exploring the possibilities of discourse, which is not easy. I hope it will happen some day.

Vassilandonakis: You are also a dedicated teacher, having taught many students from around the world both at the year-long courses at IRCAM, as well as in your many visits to the U.S. and Canada, and you have also written pieces specifically for student musicians. How do you approach teaching and pedagogy? Leroux: For me, teaching is an exchange between persons who share a certain maturity (regardless of age) and the pursuit of a craft; they speak the same language, even if at different levels of eloquence. I would say that I have learned as much from my students as they have from me. It is enthralling to introduce something that is a musical idea to someone who is very different from or a lot younger than you. When one teaches, they are obligated to formulate the why of musical things. That is also important, because it makes not only the student, but also the teacher advance. There are extraordinary composition teachers in the U.S.; I am thinking of Edmund Campion at the University of California, Berkeley, or Tristan Murail at Columbia, or Joshua Fineberg at Boston University. Vassilandonakis: To go back to our earlier conversation, one would never mistake the French influence on your music, and yet, it has grown far beyond that. I dare say your music has become very individual, and also very global in a sense. I have a sense that your personality is constantly manifesting itself into the music: intelligent yet not inaccessible, funny at times, light, and with philosophical overtones and concerns. How do you feel you have achieved that? Leroux: Thanks for the compliment; that really touches me. My music is French as far as formal clarity is concerned, American in the interest I have for the repetitive and mechanical phenomena, German in a certain vision of instrumentation and orchestration, and, without a doubt, of a lot of other origins that I cannot even imagine. For me, music represents life, and life is like this: funny, sad, or tragic, making us reflect on our origins and our humanity, complex and simple. I am also thinking of Bach, the Passions, the Fugues, and the cabaret songs.

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Vassilandonakis: What is next for you? You have been the composer in residence with the Metz orchestra? Leroux: Yes, I will be in residence until the end of next year with lOrchestre National de Lorraine and at lArsenal de Metz, in France. It is a very interesting residency. They will perform almost all the works in my catalog, around thirty pieces. There will also be a teaching aspect and a lot of events with young musicians. At the moment,I

am enjoying being invited to different universities around the world to teach and talk about my music and to have it performed in new places by new ensembles. I try to be true to what I do and be open, devoted, and dedicated. Reference
Vilella, M. 1999. Processus et invention dans Continuo(ns) de Philippe Leroux. Paris: Editions LHarmattan.

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Computer Music Journal