John sutter talks with a friend about Parmenides. Sutter: "the Parmenides is a mercilessly ravaging attack on plato's Theory of Forms" he says Zeno, a disciple of parmenides, says nothing can be both like and unlike. "On a certain level, Socrates agrees with you," says sutter.
John sutter talks with a friend about Parmenides. Sutter: "the Parmenides is a mercilessly ravaging attack on plato's Theory of Forms" he says Zeno, a disciple of parmenides, says nothing can be both like and unlike. "On a certain level, Socrates agrees with you," says sutter.
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John sutter talks with a friend about Parmenides. Sutter: "the Parmenides is a mercilessly ravaging attack on plato's Theory of Forms" he says Zeno, a disciple of parmenides, says nothing can be both like and unlike. "On a certain level, Socrates agrees with you," says sutter.
Copyright:
Attribution Non-Commercial (BY-NC)
Available Formats
Download as DOC, PDF, TXT or read online from Scribd
One day, while the two of us were engaging one another in
conversation on the hill in front of Miller Outdoor Theatre, he seriously said
to me, “I think it’s time we move on to Plato’s Parmenides.” “Great,” I said exuberantly. After that, he jumped right in. “Well,” he said professionally, “as you already know, the Parmenides is a tremendously huge and mercilessly ravaging attack on Plato’s Theory of Forms. The account is most likely a fictional meeting of the two philosophers, Parmenides and Socrates. Socrates, at the time, is in his prime, being in his youth, while Parmenides is his elder. Socrates presents Plato’s Theory of Forms, and Parmenides breaks all of it down, relentlessly and rigorously turning Plato’s Theory of Forms into a senseless and contradictory vortex of useless dust.” “OK,” I said with rapt attention. “Zeno, a disciple of Parmenides, starts off the discussion,” said Mithrandir casually. “He says that if the things that are are many, then they are both like and unlike; however, nothing, he says, can be both like and unlike. Thus, the things that are are not many. This supports the monistic approach of Parmenides.” “But everything can be both like and unlike,” I quickly retorted. “For example, blue is like turquoise, but blue is unlike red. Nothing can be both like and unlike when it’s being compared to just one thing; however, everything can be both like and unlike when it’s being compared to multiple things.” “A fine argument,” said Mithrandir engagingly with a soft smile. “Thank you,” I said in appreciation. “On a certain level,” said Mithrandir kindly, “Socrates agrees with you. He denies Zeno’s argument by disagreeing with the assertion that nothing can be both like and unlike. Socrates lays down the principle of causality, saying that things that are X are X by partaking in the X. In other words, a substance is a substance by partaking in its Form, and a Form is a Form by having its substances partake in it.” “Also,” carried on Mithrandir, “Socrates lays down the principle of separation, saying that the X is itself by itself in being separate from and not identical with the things that partake of it. Basically, even though a substance partakes in its Form, the Form is separate from the substance.” “For instance,” I said absorbingly, “things, which are substances, that are like are like by partaking in the Form of likeness, which is, of course, separate from the things, which are the substances, which are like. Things, which are substances, that are unlike are unlike by partaking in the Form of unlikeness, which is separate from the things, which are substances, which are unlike.” “Yes,” said Mithrandir receptively. “What’s next?” I asked with interest. “Well,” said Mithrandir as if he was quite enjoying himself, “Socrates says that it’s possible for things to partake in both the Forms of likeness and unlikeness, and therefore, a thing can be both like and unlike. Although he doesn’t explain why in the Parmenides, he does in another dialogue, though. Can you think of it?” “Yes,” I said after thinking for a little bit, “in the Phaedo, Socrates talks about Simmias being both tall and short in relation to two different people, which corresponds to my original critique of Zeno’s postulation.” “Good,” said Mithrandir happily. “What’s next?” I asked inquisitorially. “Socrates tells of the principle of impurity,” said Mithrandir. “Since things, such as substances, have contrary properties, such as being both tall and short, they are impure and not allotropic. Because of the principle of impurity, Zeno’s argument that nothing can be both like and unlike is null and void. Although substances have contrary properties, Forms do not have contrary properties, which is a firm distinction between the two.” “Yes,” I said rapidly, “but later on in the Sophist, Socrates says that Forms, too, have contrary properties.” “Yes,” Mithrandir agreed, “but we’re not at the Sophist yet, are we? The Sophist came after the Parmenides. The Parmenides describes the primordial principles of the Forms, which is later revised in the Sophist.” “Back to the Parmenides!” Mithrandir said authoritatively. “Thus, Socrates says that the Forms are pure and allotropic, for they do not have contrary properties. This means that the Forms cannot be both like and unlike. Therefore, the Forms are one, while the substances are many.” “Now, here comes the fun part!” said Mithrandir enthusiastically, clapping his hands together. “Here comes Parmenides and his vicious critique of the Forms.” “I’m ready,” I said steadily. “Parmenides,” said Mithrandir thoughtfully, “first asks if there are separate Forms for all substances. He questions Socrates’ approval of the notion that there is a separate Form for all substances. Two questions are being asked here. Is there a Form for all substances? If there is a Form for all substances, does the Form exist separately from its corresponding substances?” After Mithrandir was silent for a couple of seconds, I realized that the questions he asked were directed towards me, so I answered them. “Socrates,” I said, “has confidence in the separate existence of certain Forms, such as justice and beauty. He isn’t certain about the separate existence of certain Forms, such as humanity. He is really uncertain about the separate existence of certain Forms, such as hair. “Very good,” Mithrandir said appraisingly. “So we see that Socrates has confidence in the separate existence of certain Forms that are non- physical, conceptual substances. He’s certain that the Forms that are non- physical exist separately from their substances. He isn’t certain that there are Forms for physical substances, and he isn’t certain that the Forms that are physical exist separately from their substances.” “How does Parmenides next critique the Forms?” I asked wonderingly. “Next,” said Mithrandir energetically, “Parmenides asks if substances partake in all of their corresponding Form, or if substances only partake in some of their corresponding Form. There are two different types, he says. One is if substance A partakes in Form B, then A gets the whole of B. The other is if substance A partakes in Form B, then A gets a part of B. What happens if they partake in all of their corresponding Form?” “Let’s say,” I responded, “that there are two substances, A and B, that both partake in their corresponding Form, X. A partakes in all of X. B partakes in all of X. Therefore, if A and B are in different places, then X is in two places at the same time.” “A contradiction!” capitalized Mithrandir. “A Form, therefore, is separate from itself. This contradicts the notion that every Form is one; since a Form is in two places at one time, the Form is many.” “Yes, but Socrates says that just as a day can be in separate places at the same time without being separate from itself, a Form can be in separate places at the same time without being separate from itself,” I responded. “Yes,” said Mithrandir genially, “but Parmenides says that Socrates’ day is like a sail. Different parts of a day are over separate places. A sail can cover separate places, because separate places are covered by different parts of the sail. Therefore, the model, if A partakes in X, then A gets a part of X, needs to be applied.” “Let’s say,” said Mithrandir calmly, “that three substances, A, B, and C, are in separate places at the same time. X is their corresponding Form. A, B, and C partake in X. They partake in separate pieces of X. Therefore, the separate pieces of X that A, B, and C partake in are numerically different from one another. If the separate pieces of X weren’t numerically different, then there would be the same part of X, being in separate places at the same time. Since the X has numerically different parts, it is divisible, signifying that it is not one. What does Socrates say about this? “He says that he has many body parts, yet he is still one. Something with parts can still be one,” I answered. “Parmenides then uses four quick arguments,” said Mithrandir. “A is A by partaking in the A. With the piece model, he says that if A partakes of the A, then A gets a part of the A. A is largeness. Therefore, every large thing, A, is large by partaking in a part of the large, the A. If the A that is a part of the A that A partakes in exists, then the part of the A is smaller than the A. Therefore, the piece of the A is small. Every large thing, A, is large by having something small, part of the A, partake in it. Something, A, is made larger by something small, part of the A, which is said to be contradictory.” “Yes,” I immediately responded, “but something can be made larger by something small. For instance, 3 is larger than 2, making 2 small and 3 large. Having something small, such as 2, partake in something large, such as 3, by being added to it results in something larger than 3. It results in 5.” “That is a good argument,” Mithrandir said softly, “and I’m not going to argue against it, but I will tell you what Parmenides said next. Equal things are equal by partaking in part of the equal. If part of the A is smaller than the A, then the part of the A is unequal to the A. Therefore, the part of the A is unequal. Thus, equal things are equal by partaking in a part that is unequal, which, of course, does not make sense.” “What did Parmenides say after that?” I asked curiously, wondering anxiously what the answer was going to be. “He said,” said Mithrandir fervently, “that small things are small by getting a part of the small. Small things, therefore, must have parts. If A is a part of B, then B is larger than A, and B is large. Therefore, the small is large, which is contradictory.” “I see,” I said keenly. “Next, Parmenides said,” said Mithrandir zealously, “that small things are small by getting a part of the small. For A to get B is for B to be added to A. Small things are small by having a part of the small added to them. It’s contradictory, though, for you can’t make something small by adding something to it.” “Fair enough,” I said fleetly, “but what happens next?” “Let’s say,” said Mithrandir, “that A, B, and C are substances, while X1 is their corresponding Form. A, B, and C are A, B, and C by partaking in the X1. X1 is one over many, the many being A, B, and C. When X1 is added to A, B, and C, X1 becomes a substance along with A, B, and C. Therefore, a novel Form, X2, comes into existence, of which A, B, C, and X1 partake in. When X2 is added to A, B, C, and X1, a new Form, X3, comes into existence, of which A, B, C, X1, and X2 partake in. No Form is the same as the substances that partake in it. Therefore, X2 is numerically distinct from X1, and X3 is numerically distinct from X2. Since they are different, there are 3 Forms for the same substance. This contradicts Socrates’ Oneness of the Forms.” “That’s a good and intriguing argument,” I said prudently, going over it repeatedly in my head, taking it all in. “Yes,” said Mithrandir thoughtfully. “What did Socrates say to this critique?” “Socrates says,” I said meticulously, “that attacks on the Forms might be destroyed by seeing the Forms as thoughts. Parmenides then presents two arguments against this notion. What are they?” “Parmenides’ first argument,” said Mithrandir profoundly, “states that all thoughts have intentional objects. Therefore, every thought is of something rather than of nothing. The object of any thought is one-over- many. Anything, however, that is one-over-many is a Form. Therefore, the object of every thought, not the thought itself, is a Form.” “What about the second argument?” I asked. “The second argument,” said Mithrandir thoughtfully, “states that Forms are thoughts. Therefore, following the whole pie model, substances partake in all of their corresponding thought. Since all substances are composed of thoughts, all substances, such as leaves and pillows, think.” “It is then said that if something partakes in a Form, then that something is like the Form,” said Mithrandir. “A Form, X1, has three substances: A, B, and C. A, B, and C are like X1. X1 gets added to A, B, and C, and X1 gets replaced by X2. X2 gets added and gets replaced by X3. A, B, C, X1, and X2 are like X3. This, once again, contradicts the oneness of Forms.” “If I remember correctly it is then said that relation of likeness is symmetrical,” I said intuitively. “If A is like B, then B is like A. A and B are both like by partaking in the Form of likeness. The Form of likeness is like something, and therefore, it is like. Since something is like the Form of likeness, then due to symmetry, the Form of likeness is like it. Thus, the Form of likeness is like.” “By one-over-many,” said Mithrandir adeptly, “L1 partakes of the Form, L2. L2 is numerically different from L1. L1 is like L2, since a substance is like its Form, and because of the symmetry of likeness, L2 is like L1. Therefore, L2 is like. L1 and L2 are like by partaking in the Form of likeness: L3. L1 and L2 both partake and are numerically distinct from L3. Thus, there are three different Forms of likeness, which contradicts the oneness of Forms. Yet again, the oneness of Forms is contradicted!” “Now, we are on to the greatest difficulties,” I said reminiscently. “One problem is that the Forms, as Socrates describes them, cannot be known by human beings. Another problem is that the Forms, as Socrates describes them, suggest that human affairs are not known by the Gods. Can you remind me why?” “Most certainly,” said Mithrandir courteously. “Nothing that is itself by itself is in humans. Through the principle of separation, even though a substance partakes of its Form, the Form is separate, meaning that it is itself by itself. Since a Form is itself by itself, and since nothing that is itself by itself is in humans, Forms are not in humans, meaning that the Forms are not known by humans.” “Any knowledge that is a Form is more precise than any knowledge that is in humans,” said Mithrandir professionally. “The gods have any knowledge that is more precise than any knowledge that is in humans. The gods have knowledge of the Forms, while humans have knowledge of substances. Since humans have knowledge that is less precise than the knowledge the gods have, the gods possess knowledge that is greater than the knowledge of humans, signifying that the gods have a different kind of knowledge than the knowledge that the humans possess, which means that the gods do not have knowledge of human affairs. Only humans have knowledge of human affairs.” “Now,” I said in anticipation, “we are on our way to religiously examining the deductions, which are the things that Parmenides says can actually save the Forms. By using the deductions, one can concoct an elaborate defense that will undoubtedly salvage the Forms from total and utter annihilation. So what are these deductions?” I asked in the hopes that Mithrandir would answer me, for I had always had trouble deciphering exactly what the deductions were; in fact, I even had trouble understanding how many deductions there were. This is the hardest part of the Parmenides to decipher. “That’s a question for you to answer!” said Mithrandir shockingly. “When you figure it out, you can bring your answer to me, so I can tell you if it is correct.” “Come on, man,” I said earnestly. “Can’t you just teach me the deductions?” “Nope,” Mithrandir said apologetically. “I’m sorry, but that’s for you to figure out.” “Can you at least tell me how many deductions there are?” I asked perseveringly. “Well, yes, I think that’s a good idea,” he said cheerfully with a smile. “There are eight deductions.” And with that, Mithrandir left me, and I made my way back to my study to deliberately and ardently scrutinize the last half of Plato’s Parmenides with the hopes of finding the eight deductions and an unusually unique way of saving the Forms. Days on end it took me to find the deductions, and even when I found what I thought were the supposed eight deductions, I had absolutely, wholeheartedly, and utterly no idea as to how to conceivably use them to protect the Forms from a merciless onslaught of wise dialectic. I remember when I finished studying. On a piece of paper, I hastily wrote what I thought were the eight deductions, taking them to Mithrandir to see if they were correct. Mithrandir was lying down on the hill, carelessly smoking a cigarette, while scrutinizing the sky for perhaps any intriguing apparitions. “I found them,” I proudly announced. “The eight deductions. I found them.” “Did you?” said Mithrandir, sounding ecstatically delighted. “Let me see. Let me see,” he said, pointing at my piece of paper. On the paper was scrawled the following:
Deduction #1 - If the X is, then the X is not Y in relation to itself.
Deduction #2 - If the X is, then the X is Y in relation to the others. Deduction #3 - If the X is, then the others are Y in relation to the X. Deduction #4 - If the X is, then the others are not Y in relation to themselves. Deduction #5 - If the X is not, then the X is Y in relation to the others. Deduction #6 - If the X is not, then the X is not Y in relation to itself. Deduction #7 - If the X is not, then the others are Y in relation to the X. Deduction #8 - If the X is not, then the others are not Y in relation to themselves.
“Superb!” said Mithrandir, sounding downright enthused. “You found
them. Now, how are you going to use the deductions to save the Forms?” I was befuddled, shocked, and bewildered as to why he just asked me, a simple, mere, trivial, and somewhat unintelligent student of his, one of the most philosophically hard and challenging questions that had ever sacredly surfaced upon humanity; it was as if he was treating me as being his intellectual equal. He made me feel smart, and even though he made me feel intellectually poor in many instances, for once, I finally believed that if he thought I might know the answer to this tediously rough and extraneously callous question, then I might actually be able to come up with it! “I don’t know,” I admitted somewhat dully, “but I won’t stop trying to find the answer to that question.” “Good luck on your search,” he said kindly with a bemusing smile. “Don’t forget what Parmenides said. He said that in order to save the Forms, one needs to keep in mind that the Forms have contrary properties.”