CFB Answers

Come-from-Beyond-gisteren om 20:31
Paying fees for every cluster is passes through? no, zero fees in this case. but someone
in HongKong may charge fees while exchange HK's iotas for NY's iotas
This requires to have a direct link between HK and NY
And in this case HK and NY may actually be neighbor clusters thus removing necessity to
pay fees
Self-balancing system
How is EC beneficial? Sounds like a step back to me Sit in Cluster 0 then
Iotas can be created out of thin air. A cluster may emerge and offer some services,
the nodes of this cluster can “print” iotas and implicitly/explicitly promise to
accept them later in exchange for their services. The “counterfeit” iotas will likely
not be accepted by the other clusters unless the new cluster is very significant from
economic point of view. Anyway, in this case it could just create its own
cryptocurrency. can some explain the whole paragrapg into baby language please You and
PatriQ sit in a room and play PS4. You pay money to each other for each lost round. Then
I come to that room with a lot of candies. I ask you to let me play and you ask to be paid
with real USD for that. But I take few sheets of paper, draw 10$ on them and say: "Take
these ones, you'll be able to buy my candies for them".
So, for your transactions to remain feeless, you will need to keep your transactings
within Cluster 0, however this will greatly limit to whom/where you can send your
iotas to No.
you say blockchain-based solutions require a band aid..... how bad would they be
bleeding ??? We'll see it when Ethereum releases Sharding
but what if they want to buy milk with those papers you made. Essentially all those
paper are is an IOU for $10USD of candy They'll be unable to do that and those printed
$10 will be useful only as medium of exchange when trading with me
Those printed iotas is personal business between 2 parties, it doesn't affect the global
network much
So basically outside of Cluster 0, all devices that would have to reach some other
device (not within own cluster) would have to pay fees? No. If you reach another device
then it's either in the same or in neighbor cluster. Long-distance transfers is a special
case for humans.
So no fees in 99.999% cases
Eradicate humankind to make that 100%
Long distance transfers is a huge use case for crypto Do it in Cluster 0 then
like we are doing now
now there is only Cluster 0
cfb, how big does your team need to expand to make this a reality? or to get an MvP by
Christmas? got almost compl
Cfb you view clusters hierarchical in a vertical way rather than horizontal? That's
unknown yet, I expect to see a fractal-like structure
ete team ready, lacking only the coffe girl
guys, I'm going afk to buy ice-cream, take this opportunity to speculate about EC
what exactly to you mean by "creating" iotas? read that my example about candies
when distributed Coordinator ? #ict(gewijzigd)
and for all this inter-cluster-transactions there are iota tokens used? iota tokens are
used everywhere
exchange iotas in your country for iotas in japan
Millard-gisteren om 21:46
whats the exchange rate for cluster 0 tokens and cluster japan tokens
1:1
If iotas in your country move to japan then it becomes fewer iotas in your country and
more in japan
total supply is kept constant with some fluctuation in local cases like that case with
candies
was this part of the whole concept before introducing IOTA? Yes
I cannot help but think this is going to eliminate the necessity for the actual IOTA
token that's not how economy works(gewijzigd)
is offline translation on the tangle and don’t touch your wallet for. Year you can
loose your iotas ?? easy if you are not in Cluster 0
are there disadvantages in having ECs? Are there downsides? you can't charge large fees
for inclusion into blocks
you have to use 3rd party service then, someone will accept your iotas and will give you
china iotas for some percentage(gewijzigd)
CfB you've got me shook, and I'm a big believer in IOTA, are you prepared to defend
the shitstorm of FUD you've just released? Nobody else understands well enough to do
so Looking forward to that
what happen with total iota supply when we loose iota on other cluster ? it will become
lower
doesen't a currency needs to have inflation to be stable. Sorry, didn't find a way to
add inflation
sorry, maybe i'm just not awake enough....but can you give another "candy" example? i
still dont get it how you can create Iotas out of thin air...... sure: You and PatriQ
sit in a room and play poker. You pay money to each other for each lost round. Then I
come to that room with a lot of beer. I ask you to let me play and you ask to be paid with
real USD for that. But I take few sheets of paper, draw 10$ on them and say: "Take these
ones, you'll be able to buy my beer for them".
"drawbacks" are fees if one wants to cross-communicate between clusters? no fees for
communication with neighbor clusters
If cluster0 and cluster1 iota value is 1:1 what happens if clister1 prints more? there
will be more iotas but 1:1 will remain
You just reinvented an economy I just copied it
How many neighbors can a cluster have? depends on a lot of factors. if buildings have own
cluster then it will be 10 = 8 neighbor buildings, 1 street and Cluster 0 as the last one
So if I want to send from cluster A to cluster D and A is connected to B, B to C and C
to D , I could either send feeless from A to B to C to D (which takes more
confimations and time) or send it on the paid highway straight from A-D? yes
if cluster0 to cluster1 exchange rate is 1:1 but cluster1 can print more iotas, then
they can buy out cluster 0 ? yes, but for that cluster 1 should be powerful enough to
trick cluster 0 (with 4.6 billion dollar marketcap) into accepting its iotas.
can we have a global super tangle that keeps track of the clusters? no if you want ∞
scalability
where EC's part of Iota's / Qubics origonal concept or did you come up with that idea
later on? (Sorry for mentioning your name btw) what do you mean by "later"? EC is
pretty old, e.g. https://nxtforum.org/news-and-announcements/economic-clustering/
could clustering theoretically lead to different iota values in different clusters due
to different demand within the single clusters? for short period of time before
arbitrage bots come
If one cluster tricked another cluster into accepting its iotas it doesn't mean that 1000
other clusters will be tricked too
Bears are coming Shadowwinder-gisteren om 22:33

but the cluster must be more powerful than the cluster it's tricking
2
listen taht frog guys
If I use a cluster0 IOTA and start up my own cluster, then print a shitton of IOTAs in
my new controllable cluster...then I can buy lambo? unfortunately no, because
"printing" assume also tricking into accepting by promising to accept back and provide
some service or goods
for economic laws ,was the question about location. So it will be Germany? it will be the
Earth
minus China probably
in order a cluster to have a lot of iota... to they need to move iota from cuslter 0
to theirs? assuming they dont print their own iota? right
So if i wanna exchange from my clusterX back to cluster0 someone from cluster0 must
exchange with me with ratio 1:1? So cluster0 total supply cannot never increase even
if i print 1000000000 iota in my cluster, i can be be rich in my cluster but not in
cluster0? kinda. think of your iotas as of testnet iotas(gewijzigd)
There has been consensus on this with other IF members? Or this are "just" CfB
thoughts? Just CFB thoughts
Come-from-Beyond-vandaag om 00:18
Ok cool, one last question for now. When a cluster is defined i assume that in the
moment it is created the database is equivalent to it's neighbor. So then a few more
clusters are created to put distance between the original cluster and the cluster[i].
If the original cluster and cluster[i] are not neighbors but they have some addresses
with the same iotas how do they prevent double spends in the event that someone spends
from the same address in cluster3 and cluster9 at the same time if they dont
communicate with each other? That not how clusters will be added.
You join with empty DB
berghammer hopfensider-vandaag om 00:19
Network Pound pow
Ict will do that
So you'll be able to test
1
Empty DB means 1:0, how do I exchange IOTAs at the beggining of the cluster then? That
will be in swarm logic post
David Sønstebø-vandaag om 00:51

TL;DR 1) iotas 'coming into existence' in these partitions will not be accepted if the
partition is not confident it is real iotas. This is logic 101 2) IOTA's partition tolerance
(which is what this is really about from CAP Theorem) is what allows IOTA to scale and
work for IoT which blockchain can't accommodate. 3) CfB's blog post is a general
overview of the concept of EC, not IF's implementation of it. It's a soft introduction to
people who want to learn more about IOTA 4) jesus fuck
while your funds are not in cluster 0, you have a risk that the funds suddenly vanish
because cluster N becomes to small or vanishes itself? yes
so supply in cluster 0 decreases in a way depends
WASSIMATHIMNI-vandaag om 12:33
@Come-from-Beyond how do you keep supply of cluster 0 a constant then
Oliver Jones-vandaag om 12:33
you can't keep it constant, new cluster will suck iotas out of it
but you can't increase the total supply of 2,7 PI right?Did Bitcoin Cash double BTC
supply or not? I'm asking because I don't know what you mean by "total supply"
By this quote you mean, in order to prevent loss of funds because of cluster
vanishing, you send back your IOTAs to cluster 0 from time to time? no need to send to
cluster 0, just refresh your iotas in your current cluster(gewijzigd)
Those who know how Sharding works will see that EC is very similar to that, but it
doesn't have drawbacks of Ethereum's solution which requires ability to send from any
cluster to any cluster directly
So, IOTA supply might go down? you can move iotas back to cluster 0. if we don't like the
idea we can move iotas back from new cluster to initial cluster and get 2.7 Pi there again.
what if we forget to refresh them periodically ?Is an automation possible ? possible
but seed must be stored somewhere then
#ict channel will test EC first
Whereismymug is asking: What about the distributed coordinator, that major companies
are supposed to be running in the future? The IF selects them as trusted agents or
anyone can volunteer to run the distributed coordinator? Explain please It's users who
will decide what major companies to follow, not IF. Users can have different sets, they
will be different naturally, because some eat at McDonalds while others eat at PapaJohns
"Sending" iotas to a cluster means passing the iotas through N clusters until it
reaches the destination and all those clusters in the path are neighbours? yes
Cfb, when you pass iota to other cluster, it will apear in the same adress or its more
like sending iota to chosen address? latter
How does a cluster check consistency of the iotas it received/know that they are real?
slightly modified checking if comparing to today's solution
is there some kind of interconnect between clusters, I imagine sending the same funds
to two different clusters means that there must be a global ledger between them? no
special interconnection is required, IOTA already has Tangle for that
5
4
I decided to confuse you more
It's how iotas will diffuse into new clusters
w4lking away-vandaag om 13:07

Free transaction from 0 to 1 and from 1 to 2. Paid transaction from 0 to 2
yes
and pay attention that number of apples didn't change
but then comes Eve and offers the 11th apple
So the total supply is shared between clusters including the cluster 0? in the end
Cluster 0 will have only 9 apples, not 10
Alebu-vandaag om 13:09
So the supply in clusters 0 gets lower
aye
Cfb, how cluster 0 will trust cluster 1 wen you send iota from cluster 2 to 1 and then
to 0? that's what EC is about, wait for further details
So Eve will come up with the eleventh apple, but in the essence of things it is more
of a coupon for exchange of service, is what I get out of this yes, that 11th apple can
be used only to buy her service only
Marcus Jang-vandaag om 13:14

And upon paying Eve the eleventh apple will disappear into the thin air, is that the right
concept?
it will still be in that cluster with Eve
So a cluster saves just the part of the tangle, that is relevant to him? yes
Cluster 2 disappears and with it your IOTAs are lost cluster 1 will remember your
iotas, don't worry. Need the both clusters to disappear to get that apple lost
printing money will be very hard, if Eve prints iotas then others won't easily accept that
their iotas have just become less valuable
Marcus Jang-vandaag om 13:19
Makes sense
Eve must be very powerful for that to be accepted
Can a cluster have more than 1 neighbours? yes
So either it becomes consensus to accept the new token or no one can buy the token
with Cluster 0 tokens? buying is possible, but that requires to explicitly send iotas in
exchange for new tokens. Printing tokens and claiming they are legit iotas won't work.
How can you start your own cluster? Run thousands devices offering hundreds services
Has there been tests of clustering on test-net? And if yes how did they go? only
simulations, next step is testnet tests with help of #ict
how does EC relate to swarm intelligence? Swarm intelligence relies on EC to work
properly
isnt this exaclty how ICOs work? I willingly exchange iotas in exchange for your
altiota? then you need to make those altiotas incompatible with iotas
Just to be sure, when we say sending iotas from cluster 0 to cluster X, we basically
mean exchanging iotas from cluster 0 to cluster X. Its an exchange @ x:y ratio right x
!= y because of fees, otherwise it will be 1:1
How to prevent one of the sub clusters becoming the "main" cluster rendering the
original IOTA's worthless? Original IOTA cluster has first mover advantage. As you see
it's hard to dethrone Bitcoin even despite of it being pretty weak tech-wise
capre IOTA-vandaag om 13:38

Are clusters dynamic, so can they merge or split?
1
yes, but clusters tied to spatial space can't merge and split often, only if you build a new
block of houses or something like that
when can we expect to see this clustering in the real world? when true IoT arrives
Can transactions in one cluster validate transactions in another cluster? only in
neighboring one(gewijzigd)
To much data for.permanodes? can't have omnipresence to get those data in the first place

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Come-from-Beyond-gisteren om 20:31

Bears are coming Shadowwinder-gisteren om 22:33

David Sønstebø-vandaag om 00:51

w4lking away-vandaag om 13:07

Marcus Jang-vandaag om 13:14

capre IOTA-vandaag om 13:38

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