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Speaker 1: I've heard of you before. You're Holmes the meddler, Holmes
the busybody, Holmes the Scotland Yard jack in office.
Burt: No, not at all. I just wound my chronograph, and it's 9:22 and
37, 38, 30, 42, 41, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47 seconds, 48. Well, hurry
up.
Burt: It was on the Julian calendar until Julian retired, and then it
was on the Stixian calendar.
Scott: Stygian.
Burt: Friend's it's absolutely essential. Just think how tenuous your
grass on American and world history would be if you were
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uncertain about which came first, the war of American
independence or the war of 1812. So you don't look ahead to
our later contest, I think I can tell you that the war for
American independence came before the war of 1812, but
don't thank me. That's just one of the great thinking tips you'll
receive in this episode. You know, Scott, when it comes to
matters of chronology, it's all about putting one thing in front
of another.
Scott: That makes sense, but which one thing is that? Is it the chicken
or is it the chicken scratch?
Scott: There you have it. From chicken scratch and calendars to
chronologies, we've got it all here on I Hear of Sherlock
Everywhere.
Burt: It's a shame you just missed that quotation where Watson
replied, "But all we have here Holmes is the word lobster,
lobster, lobster. What does this mean?"
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Scott: You mean the iPhone doesn't come with a default Whitsuntide
reminder?
Burt: No. Last time I downloaded one, all it did was tell me the tides
outside of Whitson, Massachusetts. It was completely useless.
Scott: Good lord. That's when you need a good tide waiter.
Scott: I am well. Let's just get this out of the way. Should I call you
Vincent or Vince?
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Scott: Well, there we shall have it. We are familiar with one or two
Vincents in the Sherlockian world.
Vincent: Yes, we are. It's a great name to have, especially in this hobby.
Scott: That's wonderful. Let's go back in history, and why don't you
share with us how you first got to know Sherlock Holmes?
Vincent: Absolutely. I love telling this story. Like most people, I grew up
knowing who Sherlock Holmes was, but I had the occasional
paperback on my shelves when I was a kid. I had lots of books
when I was a kid, like I do now. When I was in high school, I
met a classmate who had just come in from another city, state,
from somewhere. His father was an English major at one of the
local colleges, and had a massive library. Two of the books that
he had on his shelf caught my eye one day. They were the
annotated Sherlock Holmes. I borrowed them from Chris, that
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was my friend's name. I borrowed them from him, and I still
have them. This was, I guess we were 13 or 14, maybe 15 years
old. I was just so taken by them.
Scott: That's wonderful. Where had you moved from when you
arrived in Indianapolis?
Vincent: That's a good way of looking at it. I've always kept them. Again,
when I've found other copies, I've bought those because I
knew I wanted to make notes myself, and highlights, and
circles, and arrows in the back of each one and all these kind of
things. I've made sure that his copies were packaged away nice
and neat, and they still are right inside my closet here off of my
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office. In the event that I ever find him again, he can have his
copies back.
Scott: That was The Date Being-? How many chronologies did they
assess in that work?
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Scott: Okay. For those not familiar, I think the most famous of all the
chronologies certainly is the Baring-Gould. It's probably so
famous because he actually build the annotated around it. He
didn't just go through and annotate the canon, he annotated it
and chronologized it at the same time. It's kind of this magnum
opus, literally. I think there are other chronologists that kind of
pop out to casual Sherlockians, shall we say. What are some of
the more famous chronologies that you can kind of tick off, a
handful?
Vincent: A handful of them? First off, people that I've talked to that are
more computer literate, more computer savvy, they talk about
Brad Keefauver's Sherlock Peoria that he has online. Some of
the more deeply rooted folks, there's Earnest Zeisler. Gavin
Brend, his book is quite popular. Again, the John Hall book, the
June Thompson book. There are some others that are maybe
not quite so ... I didn't list all of the more famous ones, but
there are some others that are not quite as well known. Ms.
Holmes of Baker Street by Alan Bradley and ... Drawing a
complete blank here. Oh, Sarjeant. Sorry, I'm stumbling all over
myself here.
Scott: Okay.
Vincent: I guess there's probably about half a dozen that your average
Sherlockian would know off the top of their head.
Scott: That's impressive. Did Jay Finley Christ ever try his hand at a
chronology?
Vincent: Jay Finley Christ did in fact try his hand at one, and it's actually
one of my favorites.
Scott: That's what I was gonna ask you. Do you have a favorite among
all of these, and why?
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Vincent: I do. I still like the annotated, but not necessarily because of
the dates that he comes up with. It has a comfortable feeling
to me. It's just never off of my desk, ever. I love them.
However, I have chronologies I like and chronologies that I
dislike. For instance, I dislike Ernest Zeisler's chronology
whereas Brad Keefauver calls him the King of Chronology. I like
Christ's chronology, I like Brend's chronologies. They are very
well thought out, they're not as drawn on as some others that
make you want to skip entire sections. They're well-detailed,
they're thought out nicely. They're monumental efforts, and I
applaud them.
Scott: Do you know approximately how many years each of them put
into that kind of work.
Scott: Huh, okay. You mentioned Zeisler as being your least favorite
while it's Brad's most favorite. What turns you off about
Zeisler?
Vincent: Zeisler limits himself a little bit too much and has a tendency to
come up with some odd dates because of the limitations that
he puts on himself right upfront. As such, whenever he runs
into a corner, whenever he backs himself into a corner, he has
to figure out some strangely creative way to get out of it. In
doing so, calls into question several stories because he really
has no way out because of what he's done to himself. He
doesn't allow himself any freedom at all to run wild with his
findings.
Scott: I like that. To me, when I first read The Annotated, I think
around the same time I discovered Sherlock Holmes of Baker
Street, which of course was Baring-Gould's biography of
Sherlock Holmes, which pre-dated The Annotated. It followed
on the same chronology, but that was published first. I found
his use of lunar cycles, and weather reports, and just cross-
referencing so many different elements that he could verify
based on the accessible records of the time, I love the
reasoning. I loved how he told, at least in The Annotated, how
he told the story of how he did it.
Vincent: I started tackling my own some years ago, maybe six or seven
years ago. I actually have a long-running commitment to my
home society, The Illustrious Clients of Indianapolis. The
newsletter, I put an article in there every time we publish. For
the longest time, it was about the chronologies and the stories.
In time, it occurred to me that there was something I was
missing, something I wasn't doing properly. It was after
reading a number of these chronologies that I figured this out.
I wasn't really comparing the dates that I was coming up with
to each other. I began to think more deeply about how to do
this, and the more I've thought about it, the more I've realized
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that there simply isn't a way to make an absolutely correct
chronology. It just doesn't exist.
Scott: Whoa. No. Vincent, the world can't wait 10 more years,
especially with a teaser like that. I mean, come on man.
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it's gonna take some time. I'm working on it, but it is going to
take me some time. So far, nobody has jumped up and offered
to help me. I'm kind of a one man band here. There's so much
to do with this project in order to say, "Yes, this is the absolute
date of this story," or "No, there simply isn't a possible way to
date this one absolutely."
Scott: I think you hit on it. We may need to crowdsource this with
you. You mentioned there's this sticking point. Can you give us
any hints as to what you're trying to wrap your head around or
what you're trying to rationalize? We could help.
Vincent: How can I put this without giving anything away? There's only
two people on the entire planet besides my wife, and believe
me she could care less about this, there's only two people on
the planet that know what this thing is besides myself. When I
told both of them, they both got this look on their face like, I
haven't thought of that. I don't know how much I can give you.
There is a major problem with Watson's marriages that I
believe requires a complete rethink, a complete re-evaluation.
Once that is settled, then I believe that a as-close-to-possible
chronology can be written for the canon.
Vincent: I think there's a way around it. I really do, but that's what I'm
working on. That's what I'm always working on. If I have five
minutes, 10 minutes, and hour, whatever, and I've put aside
everything else, that's the one I'm working on.
Scott: Well, your secret is safe with us because nobody listens to this
show.
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Scott: Yeah. The Baker Street Journal has been doing its thing for 72
years, and some of the most heralded names in Sherlockian
scholarship have appeared in print between those yellow
covers, people like William Baring-Gould, whose famous
Annotated Sherlock Holmes and his earlier Sherlock Holmes of
Baker Street made the chronology of the stories something of
a spectator sport. Names like Bell, Christ, Brend, and Zeisler, all
of whom are heralded as scholars and chronologists appear
throughout the Baker Street Journal's history. In fact, the very
first issue of the journal contained The Watson Problem by S.
C. Roberts, who called for a comprehensive chronology when
he wrote.
Vincent: That's an excellent question. I think the first thing I would do,
especially with what it is that I'm working on, is I would tell
them right upfront what I think the problem is, and for them to
tackle it, wring it and see what comes out for them. One
person that knows about it is not interested in chronology at
all, whereas the other person is very interested and may
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actually be working on it as we speak. I have a few people in
mind that I would dearly love their help, it's just a matter of
me getting to the point where I can comfortably contact them
and say, "This is what I have in mind. Are you interested?"
What I'm actually doing may turn out to be Sherlockian heresy.
I have to be very careful with who I pick.
Scott: Now we've got a show. Okay. Not that we are looking to
condone this kind of crime, but this would be wonderful if folks
could reach out and get in touch with you and see how they
might help. It sounds like you're really onto something here.
Vincent: It's got more and more speed lately. I've been toying with the
idea of a society for chronologists or chronology, and it just
started off as kind of a thought. I put a blog out about it saying
this is something I'm thinking about. Within weeks, I had
gotten two dozen responses from people saying, "I think this
would be fascinating." There's more interest out there than I
was aware of. Outside of those of us who consider ourselves
chronologists, there are actually people out there who are on
the fringes who admit in secret and in dark rooms that they
actually do like chronology and this is something they might be
interested in doing.
I've got the fodder, I've got the people, I've got the group. It's
just a matter of me being ready to present it to the small
public at large about this and see what everybody else thinks.
If I get rotten tomatoes and things like that thrown at me, then
I know I'm on the right track.
Vincent: Right.
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written. Do you use any external sources for your chronology
researches?
Scott: You're really living in the perfect age for doing what you're
doing because you can actually access so much information
just on your keyboard through the computer, through the
internet.
Vincent: That's very true. However, that's not necessarily a good thing.
The amount of information that you have can actually cause
you to have problems. One of my other small hobbies is the
Shakespeare authorship question. I have no dog in this fight. I
don't care which way it goes. I'm just fascinated with the
detective work that goes into it. However, anytime any new
piece is found that might help it, it seems to cause more
question than it causes answers. It's exactly the same with the
research that I do.
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If I find something that says something one way, I'm gonna find
10 other pages that say that it's actually incorrect, or there's a
problem with the research, or a problem with the provenance
or something. Having the world of knowledge at your
fingertips is a wonderful thing, but it's what causes me to have
to work on something for 10 years because there's so much
information, and not all of it coalesces very well.
Scott: I guess that would lead to the obvious question. How do you
know when you've done enough research?
Vincent: Research never stops, it doesn't with me. I'm the kind of guy
that's still working on a paper the day of. I'm the guy that's in
the back of the room who's going on in 10 minutes and I'm still
making notes on the sides of my paper. You don't know when
you've done enough research because you know and I know,
and I realize this, that if I were to put out a chronology and I
was to say I have done every drop of research I possibly can,
this is as definitive as it gets, I know that there's a possibility
that I could go home that night, open my computer, and find
an email from somebody saying, "By the way, it was just
discovered that this particular station didn't exist on that
date," or this particular type of shoe didn't exist that that time,
or something like that, which would change everything. You're
never done researching.
Scott: That's why there are errata slips and second editions, right?
Vincent: I agree. I think if I were to actually put out a book, I would have
to title it something like, This Is Just The First Try or something
like that because I know that there would be more and more
and more coming out later. There's always something new
being found, whether by me or by somebody else.
Scott: I was initially going to ask you if you ever foresee the end of
chronologies. We've got this dozen or so that exist and have
existed for some decades. If you get to the point where you
think you've wrapped everything up, you've solved the major
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sticking point that you mentioned before, do you think there's
still room for someone else to come along and tear it all down
and start on their own chronology?
Vincent: Let me take you back just a couple of seconds in what you said
there about the 12 chronologies that everybody knows about. I
actually have 23 chronologies in my collection.
Scott: Okay.
Vincent: I know of two that are being written as we speak, and one
other person who is dead set on having one before they die.
No, I don't think it's ever going to end, and the reason that I
don't think it's going to end is because if you're going to do any
kind of scholarly canonical work, I'm talking about absolutely in
the pages of the canon and nowhere else outside of it, then
you have got to look at every detail possible in order to date
these stories. In doing so, of course, you come up with all
these other little tangents that you can do great papers on or
little side columns and say, "Did you know this or have you
ever heard of this," in different publications around the
country. However, doing an actual chronology requires such a
deep level of research.
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Scott: Given that and given our call to arms, we mentioned before
folks can pitch in and help you here. I almost wonder if a
potential chronology of the future, and I'm not saying it's yours
by any stretch of the imagination, but if there are these
differing points of view and there are enough people involved,
I wonder if something like a Wikipedia for the canonical
chronologies would make sense, where people can come
together as an editorial board, make decisions, perhaps battle
it out with each other.
Scott: We've got some heavy hitters in that regard. Do you think that
maybe that group participation would lend itself to something
more definitive or something that might actually become a
classic?
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However, along those same lines, an idea I had numerous
years ago was if I were going to put out a book about
chronology, perhaps it could be like a double column kind of
thing. On one side is the sticking points, and on the other side
are all of the possible findings and logic points that you can
come up with for that. You say, "If this date works, that means
you have to ignore this. If you don't ignore this, then how is
this in there," and so on and so forth. Once all these are
corrected, how does it fit into the Watson's marriage problem,
and so on and so forth? These kind of ideas have been floating
in my head for some time.
Scott: That last one's almost like a choose your own adventure.
Vincent: That's exactly right. That's exactly what I called it when I put it
on my blog. That's exactly what it was. I love those books. I
remember reading every one of those I could get my hands on
when I was a kid. Yes, it's the exact same thing that you're
talking about. If you take a story and you say, "This is the
proposed date, here are the problems with that proposed
date," and each one of those has its own little offshoot from it
saying, "If you accept this, then that means you have to ignore
this," and so on and so forth. Yeah, that's exactly what it's like.
Scott: Yeah. Really what that is is just a logic tree. You could build
that online as easily as you could manufacture a book out of it.
Vincent: Precisely. That was an idea that was ... Something similar to
that was given to me by somebody not long ago, but it would
take a bigger brain than mine for something like that online. I
do okay online, but I'm not a genius. I do have people out
there who would be willing to do that for me as well.
Scott: Yeah, I'll bet. You get around, and you speak to Sherlockian
conferences quite a bit. I know we were on the program
together, I believe, at the Scintillation of Scions.
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Scott: You've been back there a number of times.
Vincent: I have.
Scott: What are some other places where you found yourself behind
the podium?
Vincent: It's very varietal. I always try and tie chronology back into it
somehow, but no. I gave a paper a couple years ago in Dayton,
and the title of it was A Word About Hanging. It was all about
hangmen who were in service at the time, during the Victorian
era. It didn't really talk about Holmes that much. I did another
one two years ago, I believe, where I talked about the perils of
dying in Victorian London because of the things that could
happen to your body after you were dead. Again, not
necessarily chronological in any way, but at the very end I did
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tie in Holmes just barely. No, I don't specifically just talk about
chronology.
In Minnesota three years ago, two years ago, three years ago, I
gave a paper about chronology specifically. It was the longest
paper I've ever given, it was up to 45 minutes, I loved every
minute of it. I've given that paper three times since then. It's
been so popular. I've even helped people with other papers
that they're writing because they saw this and they associate
me with the chronology. I've had some success with it as far as
people contacting me, which is a constant thing, let me tell
you, but no, my papers are not always about chronology, but
they are always about Victorian London in some form.
Scott: Got it. Do you typically find inspiration as you're doing your
chronology work or does it come to you in other ways?
Vincent: No, no. It's rare that I get an idea for a paper just out of the
blue. It does happen on occasion. In fact, I may be speaking in
the Midwest here next year at a large gathering. It hasn't been
confirmed yet, but I have a great idea for a paper that just
came to me one day while I was at work. Blip, there it was.
That happens every once in a while. Most of my papers come
from research. I recently wrote an article for our home
newsletter saying I think it would be interesting to see the
process ... I think I put this on Facebook as well. It would be
interesting to see the process of the research, how you start
off with one thing and you wind up in a thousand other places.
Scott: Yes.
Vincent: Those thousand other places are where I get a lot of my ideas
for my papers.
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Scott: If folks would like to check out your work, we will have a link to
it in the show notes. Just for reference, it is
historicalsherlock.blogspot.com. It's subtitled, Examining the
Chronology of the Sherlock Holmes Canon.
Scott: Excellent. Thank you for taking the time to be with us tonight.
We do appreciate it.
Vincent: Fantastic.
[Interview End]
Scott: Well, that's probably more than you ever wanted to know
about chronologies.
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Burt: You know, it's another illustration of the fact that the cases of
Sherlock Holmes can really be a canvas for so many other
interests. It's amazing that his cast of mind digging into this,
trying to solve things. I'm very curious though. What is that
one item that will solve all the problems? It's very tempting to
think there's just one little piece of the puzzle that we need to
discover and then everything else will fall into place.
Scott: Got a bit of a hint there from Vincent. Hopefully, that will be
more forthcoming. I love the idea of people banding together
to help solve this, to help solve the chronological problems. I
don't know if there's anything to it in the future, if there's an
online study group, or as Vincent said, this notion of a
potential scion society for chronologists or people interested in
chronologies. It seems to me that group think, like Wikipedia in
this case, would help arrive at some of these conclusions a
little faster.
Burt: Yeah. I think that's right. I'm sorry that I just couldn't join that
conversation with Vincent, but I think you did a great job.
Scott: It's your fault. You should have set the Tardis a little earlier.
Scott: Let's move from chronology over to some newsy type items, if
we can do that.
Burt: Oh good.
Scott: The first item that I found, and this is absolutely fascinating
because it seems like we've been waiting forever for this news,
have you seen the Robert Downey Jr., Jude Law, Sherlock
Holmes movies?
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Scott: No. Of course, he and Jude Law took their turn on the big
screen as Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson in 2009 with
Sherlock Holmes and then followed it up, I think in 2012, with
Sherlock Holmes: A Game of Shadows.
Burt: I think that's pretty shabby of you, but hold on while I write
out my check.
Scott: Hey, if it means that we can keep this podcast going for
another two years and trying to get Robert Downey Jr. on as a
guest or Jude Law, I mean let's go for it.
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Scott: You are probably aware of this. Jude Law was actually in the
Granada series.
Burt: No, I don't remember. Yeah, I vaguely remember that. Who did
he play? He was young.
Scott: Yeah, a very young Jude Law in drag. It kind of fits with Robert
Downey Jr. being in drag in the last one.
Burt: His best costume was of the drapes, I think. That was in the
second picture where he was made up to blend into the
background of the room. Without saying anything against his
ability as an actor, he's a good actor, he really is, I think that
was the best moment in the film. In fact, I think if they could
have done two hours of him as the drapes, it would've been a
big improvement.
Burt: It was a great meeting, and notable for two or three things.
One is the return of our keeper, Dan Posnansky, who had been
way late over the last few years, but who made a very strong
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return, and it's great to see Dan looking so well. The grace of
The Speckled Band, which in the past has referred sort of
specifically to man, has now been very cunningly edited so that
it refers generically to children, but that was very warm. The
wonderful participation of women, including our pal, Sonia
Fetherston, and Cathy Piffat, and Evy Herzog was there, and
many more, which was really ... It was a grand meeting.
Your attire, for the first time you wore the actual early 20th
century frock coat, vest, and other aspects of the wardrobe
that was worn for many years by our departed John Constable
had been the speaker of the band, who very thoughtfully
bequeathed that to you. It was great to see you there wearing
that, and to hear through your impersonation, the echoes of
John Constable's voice in that old club in Boston. It was a grand
meeting.
Scott: It really was. That suit was made for a physician in Cambridge
by a Cambridge tailor over 100 years ago. It was given by that
physician's widow to Dr. Constable. It's got a wonderful
heritage. If you're interested in learning a little bit more about
The Speckled Band, about what goes on there, about some of
the people behind it, and Dan Posnansky, the current keeper,
you can check out Episode 177, ihose.co/ihose77, all
lowercase, will get you there. We'll throw a link to that in the
show notes.
Scott: 77.
Scott: That's the one. You've been patient, you've waited. It is now
time to get to the canonical couplets. We're pleased to say
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that as of last time, we've changed the rules up a little bit.
We've decided to open up the canonical couplets competition
to anyone, not just folks who may happen to be patrons,
financial supports of the I Hear of Sherlock Everywhere. Let me
just say, that worked out splendidly. We got quite a few
entries, so many that we have had to put our entrants into a
random generator to see who's gonna pop up with the right
answer.
Burt: Excellent.
Scott: Let them gnash and wail as they will. You'll remain Burt
Wolder.
Sherlock Holmes: I'm afraid within the pleasure of this conversation, I'm
neglecting business of importance, which awaits me
elsewhere.
Narrator: Thank you for listening. Please be sure to join us again for the
next episode of I Hear of Sherlock Everywhere, the first
podcast dedicated to Sherlock Holmes.
Sherlock Holmes: Goodbye and good luck, and believe me to be, my dear fellow,
very sincerely yours, Sherlock Holmes.
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