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Number of Speakers: 2
[Inaudible] [0:00:02]

Interviewer: If you could put the question into the answer somehow . . .

J. Wesley Saint Clair: Sure.

Interviewer: . . . because I go away . . .

J. Wesley Saint Clair: Okay.

Interviewer: . . . and you know we’ll cut and paste it and – everybody sounds great and
[inaudible] [0:00:16].

J. Wesley Saint Clair: Good, I need that, I wish all my things were cut and paste that way I . . .

Interviewer: I know isn’t marvelous we can just jump through time . . .

J. Wesley Saint Clair: Yeah, exactly.

Interviewer: . . . it’s one of the fun things about doing this. You know I spent most of my career
doing print journalism, so I feel like a bit of a fraud sometimes [0:00:30] [inaudible] [0:00:33]
anyhow I’m working on it. So the purpose of this whole project is – are we rolling by the way?

Male Speaker: Yip, we’re good.

Interviewer: And we’ve got good audio?

Male Speaker: Yip.

Interviewer: Thank you sir. The purpose is try and change people within the system, this is not –
and we’re very cognizant of it doesn’t help to you know to like scare people away, I want to you
know kind of bring them in okay, so [0:01:00] I guess that’s you know sort of the you know –
we’re trying to get support for this, we’re trying to get policy makers, and influential and
legislators and people with large bank accounts.

J. Wesley Saint Clair: Right.

Interviewer: To sort of help support initially some kind of an endowment and also Public Policy
that makes this the standard. So that’s my goal, anyhow. So the things that I am curious about
are[0:01:30]; first of all the easy stuff, can you just tell us who you are and what you do for a
living?
J. Wesley Saint Clair: My name is J. Wesley Saint Clair, I am a Superior Court Judge currently
assigned to the Juvenile Department and Chief Judge here at King County Superior Court.

Interviewer: Before you did that, did I read your bio correctly, you were a Defense Attorney?

J. Wesley Saint Clair: Many years ago, after passing the bar, I started my career as a prosecutor
in the King County Prosecutors office [0:02:00], worked there for around 3 years. Then I went
into private practice doing Criminal Defense for around another 3 years and then I became a
Substitute Judge, or a Judge Pro tem, did that for a couple of years and finally was appointed to
the District Court which was the Court of Limited Jurisdiction here in King County, State of
Washington. And in 2004 I was appointed to the Superior Court, [0:02:30] I spent around from
2005 to 2011 as a Drug Court Judge on the adult side, and then when I transitioned here to
Juvenile Court one of my current duties is to be the Presiding Judge over the Juvenile Drug
Court.

Interviewer: So you’ve seen it from a lot of angles?

J. Wesley Saint Clair: I’ve seen the Criminal Justice system at work from a variety of angles,
understanding the [0:03:00] challenges that both substance abuse and mental health issues
present to both adults and to children.

Interviewer: So what are the issues that you see, what are the core issues we’re dealing with here
what are the issues kids and families in your court room are facing?

J. Wesley Saint Clair: Some of core the issues that we have in our jurisdiction, I think probably
in every jurisdiction across the United States, are issues of substance abuse, mental health
challenges [0:03:30], there are issues of homelessness, poverty, there are issues of racism,
institutional racism that exists and manifests itself in a wide variety of ways including the “zero
tolerance” policy that is currently in effect in most school districts that cause youth, especially
youth of color, are disengaged [0:04:00] from and removed from mainstream society.

Interviewer: So tell us about this FIT program – that just made a noise that made me think it quit
recording – tell me, I’m the avatar as I mentioned when I came through the door, for the people
who don’t know what the heck FIT is all about, what’s FIT all about?

J. Wesley Saint Clair: Well you know I’m [0:04:30] not a clinician in the sense of I don’t have
the academic background to explain to you with any great degree of – I don’t have the academic
credentials, but what I do have is I know that this is a program that appears to be more holistic in
its format. It engages not only the youth but family and brings those services to the family in
their home [0:05:00] in their community as opposed to making the youth, or the family, go to a
set location, it’s probably less stigma – there’s less stigmatism associated with it because
whenever you speak of issues of mental health certain images jump to mind of both family and
the general public as a whole.

The reality [0:05:30] is most of us have mental health challenges whether it’s mild depression or
clinical depression or have things that have occurred in our background that have given rise to
some of the behaviors that we are manifesting today. In our society there are now accepted
concepts associated with adverse childhood experiences as well as a greater understanding of the
adolescent brain and how it works [0:06:00], or actually doesn’t work at various points in time,
and with that science behind us we are now able to devise better, more effective interventions
that we get to see working on a day to day basis.

Interviewer: So that’s an interesting – it leads to an interesting point which is there is always this
sort of pastiche of stuff that is happening in families; what kind of – what are the collision of
circumstances that you’ve seen, [0:06:30] what characteristic you know – what is that road to
[petition] [06:40] that I mentioned when you came through the door, you know what are the
things that families are grappling with on like an internal basis?

J. Wesley Saint Clair: You know the families – we often at times only have a single family
member that is presented to us, typically the youth in Juvenile Court, and they often times are
manifestations of challenges that are historically [0:07:00] based whether it be mental health
challenges that have existed or substance abuse challenges, or the fact that poverty has this
impact. When you look at the concept of adverse childhood experiences and how children are in
fact impacted by the fact that their parents suffered them, then they often times are wearing those
familial pre-existing [0:07:30] challenges as they present themselves to us.

It means that – so often is we think we are dealing with a single person, actually it’s that they are
the center of this core of other people who become this support system, or sometimes the lack of
support system that a particular child has. The, again, the adverse childhood experiences
[0:08:00] the adolescent brain, the substance abuse issues, most often we see is that – by the time
they hit our door there are already these relationships, or sometimes lack or relationships,
meaningful relationships, that have developed. And primarily there is lack of communication
between the parent and the child, so we [0:08:30] – I think the belief is that it is important to
reestablish that relationship. An example I’ll give you; a parent has suffered from chemical
abuse issues in their past, and they have only recently become the parent, then . . .

Interviewer: [Inaudible] [0:08:53].

J. Wesley Saint Clair: Alright. They only have recently become a parent in that relationship.
Well there is a lot of [0:09:00] hostility and resentment that is associated with “Where have you
been for the last 8 years of my life and now you are coming to parent me and tell me what to do
and how to do it, and how successful have you been in doing that?” and so that becomes kind of
one of the foundational issues that you find I think those clinicians associated with [0:09:30] the
FIT program find themselves engaged with; how do we establish lines of communication, how
do I teach parents who’ve just become parents, how do I teach them the boundaries that are
needed in order for a youth to be progress, how do I teach accountability that is associated with it
– you know I forgot to mention something that is really quite important is understanding how
[0:10:00] stress has – the type of impact it has on the adolescent brain and when you are living in
a stressful household, where you have un-medicated mental health issues, when you have
untreated physical health issues, when you have unresolved chemical dependency issues, then it
becomes very difficult as you have this culminating effect of [0:10:30] the impacts of adverse
childhood experience; racism, poverty, it all builds to the point where communication becomes
pretty non-existent and the efforts to impose both structure and guidance to the youth become
very, very, difficult if not, impossible.

Interviewer: You know I saw, when I was in your court room today I saw some of those parents
who were there clearly looking [0:11:00] for help from – I mean they wanted the court to sort of
help them find a way to reign in their kids, which I suspect is very common. Is this, I’m kind of
jumping down my list of questions just a bit, but I think it seems like, this sounds like a way that
the system can really start to do that by providing us coaching, is that what your observation is?

J. Wesley Saint Clair: My [0:11:30] observation is that the court cannot fix anything. And if you
are looking for the court – if one looks for the court to be that one element that will make the
change in that youth’s lives, then sorry it just doesn’t work that way, in fact we find that the more
you become involved in the court, the more difficult [0:12:00] the problem is. So we actually
look for that the solution to these issues has to come from the community and come from within
that household. Those are more long lasting changes, those are more long lasting inputs in order
to change the trajectory that kids often times find themselves in when they are in that strong,
what’s it called, ODD [0:12:30] : Opposition Defiance Disorder, which I call being a teenager,
because I think I know when I was a teenager I suffered from it and just about every teenager I
know has suffered from it from some degree or other on some topic or other.

It’s just when you have too many things that they are of such major consequence to a sense of
self, a sense of well-being, when you have youth that are being [0:13:00] bullied, when you have
youth that have suffered from sexual molestation, when you have youth that are suffering from
unresolved and untreated post manic stress disorder, then it becomes just a model for disaster of
continuing failure.

Interviewer: Just getting a quick question Kirsten, are we catching a reflection?

Male Speaker: In the glasses?

Interviewer: Yeah.

Male Speaker: No not too bad [0:13:30].

Interviewer: Okay because I don’t want to lose a great quote because [inaudible] [0:13:37]. So
what do you say to those, all those hard asses out there saying we should just, you know, we’re
mollycoddling these people?

J. Wesley Saint Clair: Well for those folks who are saying that we’re into “Hug a Thug” type of
intervention [0:14:00], I would point to where at an earlier point in time we thought our process
was going to produce this juvenile super predator; that’s not been the case. It is amazing from
my perspective being from – dealing in Therapeutic jurisprudence for the last 10 to 15 years of
my career, that that becomes more effective way [0:14:30] when you establish that relationship
that is based upon respect, mutual respect and dignity, when you establish a relationship that is
based upon a sincere desire to engage and give praise, when you look for the positives as
opposed to the negatives, it’s real – it’s very easy in my line of work to be critical of [0:15:00]
what you haven’t done and what you should be doing, when we actually find that a much more
effective motto is to acknowledge the strengths that they have that they bring to the table and
help them further develop them as opposed to constantly dwelling on the negative things. They
know the negatives they know the things that aren’t going well. [15:26]]

Often times they forget those strengths and those positives that the [0:15:30] conversation has to
be that you can do and be something different than what you are manifesting at this point in time,
and you look for that one or two things that they have done, those positives and keep pointing to
them, because they get to hear negative everywhere else, whether it’s in school or sometimes
around the house all of the time. If they have, in fact, an authority figure such as a court
[0:16:00] saying to them “Good for you, well done.” “I know you can do better, keep pushing
on.” Then you actually over time, you have to make some very substantial changes.

Interviewer: So the – what are some of the, in human terms, what sorts of outcomes have you
seen coming out of this kind of therapeutic approach to jurisprudence?

J. Wesley Saint Clair: [0:16:30] I’m not a religious person, and some of the effects that I have
seen that come out, I think of them in terms of miracles. I have seen where a parent and child,
where the only discussion they could have, wherever they were, were this yelling match where
“Yes I did, no I didn’t” “You said no I didn’t” I have seen that evolve to where suddenly
[0:17:00] the youth is appreciative of the qualities of their parents, of the support of their parent,
their parent now has developed a sense of the importance of establishing boundaries and
reinforcing those boundaries.

Just like the youth need to have that sense of a “Yes you are doing good and well done” so does
the [0:17:30] parent who has never really parented. I have seen youth that were totally
disrespectful and oppositional, place themselves into a very disciplined environment, almost a
boot camp environment, and be successful, and be proud of the fact [0:18:00] that they were able
to adhere to the boundaries that were set and be proud of the fact that we could be proud of the
work that they had done. I’ve seen youth – I’ve even seen people really finding themselves into
conflict with a counsellor, yet the seeds of the counsellor laid while they were there, impacted in
just this dramatic fashion [0:18:30], that relationship to such a degree that months later you find
that the conflict that was inherent in that relationship has been diminished and now has them
having a true parent-child relationship that is much more mature, much more adult like and much
more each side being appreciative of the need for [0:19:00] boundaries, wanting of boundaries
and the need for imposition of those boundaries. Moving away from “I want to be your friend”
to “I really don’t want to be your friend, it is more important that I be your parent”.

I have been – I mean this is what made me a fan of the FIT program; seeing that you can take
these totally dysfunctional, possibly dangerous situations – danger [0:19:30]not only to the
participants but to the good Samaritans who might come and hear the uproar and now be drawn
into that domestic violence relationship, to one that is where the parent is standing up and
respecting themselves and the boundaries that they set, and the child appreciating and respecting
the parent for setting those boundaries [0:20:00].
Every time I’ve seen it work, and I’ve seen it work many times at this point in time, I become
more and more enthusiastic over the fact of maybe this is a model that – no not maybe, this is a
model that works for my kids, when I say my kids, I’m saying that so many times you have these
evidence based programs [0:20:30] that are proposed by people to be evidenced based upon
certain populations, and typically they are typically white populations, I see that the FIT program
works excellently with our children of color and so that makes me much more enthusiastic
[0:21:00] to say; how do we take these programs that are – because right now when you look to
see who is the vast population of kids who remain in our juvenile justice system, they are
typically our kids of color by a much larger percentage than they are in the population as a
whole.

And so whatever we have been putting together and putting in place, may have been working for
the population as a whole. It’s worked less [0:21:30] well for our youth of color. Now I see I am
seeing a program that is actually working well for anyone who gets – has the opportunity to
engage in it, including our youth of color.

Interviewer: I want to chase that down a little bit because interestingly, I’m also – I’m wearing a
lot of hats, but I’ve been doing a series of McCarthy Foundation Funded Films on the Models for
Change program, and we did a thing that led up to that and truancy issues, which is this sort of
like [0:22:00] gateway or fence right, and now I’m working on a thing on DMC and which
[inaudible] [0:22:12] department is now being called RED I guess . . .

J. Wesley Saint Clair: Ratio Equity Disparity.

Interviewer: Disparity, yeah but of course Bono already got RED so everybody’s confused, but
the point is that you know the critical issue here is that we are really trying to like engage
[0:22:30] some people who work with the system like in the detention unit and over at the West
Precinct etc. to change their way of thinking and so I might steal part of this interview to put in
that for Bobby Bridges Organization, if you don’t mind?

J. Wesley Saint Clair: I’ve worked with Bobby as well. . .

Interviewer: I know, I know you guys are – and she’s a great gal and I just think the world of
her, but tell me you know like it’s so [0:23:00] important that whole issue of what you were just
saying about how this proportionality is – how can – what as a sort of higher view, what are the
types of – the best approaches from your perspective as a jurist to start breaking that cycle? Just
the kind of, like instead of locking them up and throwing away the key, which has been the
[0:23:30] silly you know method for the last decades or at least it was thought to be a solution
and it hasn’t worked right?

J. Wesley Saint Clair: Well you know it is a – one of the challenges that has occurred, I mean the
historical challenges, the professor Michelle Alexander wrote a book called “The New Jim Crow:
[0:24:00] The Mass Incarceration” and it’s really viewed as the next Civil Rights issue that we
face in our country. Again it goes to issues of poverty, it goes to issues of disenfranchisement
that has occurred on a historical bases, and so for me if [0:24:30] you try to synthesize it into
some core principles that “How can we really address this issue” then it goes to education, it
goes to looking at – because our education system as it currently is devised has set up this
process that causes if you act a certain way, if you wear certain clothing, if your response
[0:25:00] to a teacher population, that is 78% white female, and if they sense that you are
disrespectful, defiant or insubordinate then you are going to be kicked out. And that is why the
study that was recently done in New York shows 78% of those folks who have been expelled
from school are black males [0:25:30].

So for me it goes to one of the things that we are going to have to do in a very principle fashion
that will engage this population, I’m looking at restorative justice or restorative principles as it
becomes the foundation, and it’s where you are treating people with respect and dignity, that the
differences are okay, that we [0:26:00] understand that harms are done to people, we understand
that our current system excludes those folks once they’ve been labelled in a certain fashion and
so on restorative justice principles we understand the harm, the youth or the person who has been
harmed engages in the process and we are embracing that person [0:26:30] not ostracizing them
from our systems.

Were we about a process to implement that in a very robust and holistically fashion not just in
our justice systems but in our school system, in our behavioral health system, and our medical
systems, in our law enforcement systems, then [0:27:00] my belief is that we would kind of set
the foundation that gives us the ability to talk about things that we as a society, an American
society, don’t want to talk about. We don’t want to talk about racism, we don’t want to talk about
privilege, we don’t want to talk about the poverty.

There is a author named Bryan Stevenson, just wrote a book called “Just Mercy” and [0:27:30]
he has been a very ardent proponent of, not only issues of juvenile justice but death penalty, he
goes on to say that the opposite of poverty is not wealth but justice, because if you are wealthy
you are able to access a justice system that actually [0:28:00] gives you more, than you could if
you are poor, if you are a child of color, if you are a child of poverty. Our system needs to, again
from my perspective, needs to be engaging in a process where we look for a collaborative model
to [0:28:30] engage out other systems, institutions, so that we can begin the process of really
putting in place a foundation that gives us the ability to really talk about those difficult topics,
understand that feelings are going to be hurt but then how do we move beyond them.

Interviewer: Thank you, you just filled out the gap in my other film. I should like give them a
discount [0:29:00]. Truly it’s like so hard to get people, here I am you know like I have privilege
but I mean like from my background, but not anymore because I chose this stupid career,
economically anyway, but everybody tippy toes around just saying “This isn’t about racism”.

J. Wesley Saint Clair: It is, our society is built on, our whole premise of our economic system
has been built upon racism. When you see what’s – you know and I don’t want to [0:29:30] go
too far out of field of where my comfort zone is, but when you see what’s happening with the
immigration action that is occurring, we as a society say “Yeah we don’t want these
undocumented folk here except for my guy, those who support my economic interest, those I
[0:30:00] want to keep, but the other ones we don’t want” we have – you know we are one to be
brutally honest about what we are built on and there is a piece recently on MPR that talked about
the Texas history text books, and it talked about [0:30:30] their premise that it was a – the Civil
War was based upon economic dispute, and it was, but the basis of that economic dispute was
slavery, and the ownership pieces associated with that and the access to cheap labor and that’s
what’s the [0:31:00] continuation from slavery to the Jim Crow era implementation to now we
have another [indiscernible] [0:31:11] system built upon the concept of that level of
disenfranchisement and that’s the Mass Incarceration.

Because when you think about the billions of dollars that are associated with the prison industrial
complex, and how whole communities, often times [0:31:30] not urban, but kind of rural, semi-
rural communities, become completely dependent upon that prison industrial complex and
having that large prison there and then the base of folk who work there, then suddenly you have
this natural grassroot support for sustaining and maintaining that process. Interestingly enough
though when you look carefully at the folks [0:32:00] who are staffing that prison, sometimes
they are questioning “Hold up, you know you’ve been in prison for 20 years for the conviction of
the distribution of marijuana, that’s crazy.” There’s a, I think a PBS special, I’m not sure if it’s
PBS, called “The House We Live In” and it talks about [0:32:30] the prison industrial complex
and how complex it is for people who are operating within it because the distance between
sometimes the persons who are the staff members and the inmates is not very much but often
times it’s the color that makes the difference.

Interviewer: So, how have you dealt with it [0:33:00], because in Juvenile Court you are not
confronted with things like mandatory sentencing I suppose?

J. Wesley Saint Clair: In the State of Washington we are.

Interviewer: We are or are not?

J. Wesley Saint Clair: We are. We do have mandatory sentencing in the State of Washington for
certain types of offences. We operate under what’s called the Juvenile Justice Rehabilitation Act
and it has [0:33:30] – actually allows for our mandates that for certain offences it’s a matrix
system based upon the seriousness of the offence, as well as the offenders score dictates exactly
what the sentence shall be. Certain sentences do carry mandatory prison time, juvenile prison
time, offenses against persons [0:24:00], violent offences.

You know interestingly enough as we look at what the adolescent brain tells us and what our
science tells us, it tells us now that we have determined that the adult of majority is 18, but the
brain does not fully develop until the time it is between 25 and 29, now some jurisdictions are in
fact engaged in an act to up [0:34:30] the period of juvenile jurisdiction so that it encompasses
more of that time while they are still acting as adolescents given the brain, so that they can
remain in a system that is more rehabilitative than the adult system is, because the adult system is
not.

Interviewer: And that’s – what going on?

Male Speaker: I just need to switch the card. [0:35:00]

Interviewer: Okay, cool. We forgot our second tripod so this is where this sort of pile of stuff
here [inaudible] [0:35:10].

J. Wesley Saint Clair: That looks like a pretty . . .

Interviewer: Are you doing a little bit of change in the zoom?

[Inaudible] [0:35:14]

Interviewer: Alright, so is this still running?

Male Speaker: Yeah.

Interviewer: Good. Status quo you know approach, I mean Eric Troopman has this wonderful
quote that I stuck him with filming him last year [0:35:30], about how it’s just not working.
From your perspective as jurist, you know do you see this revolving door with the approach that
was the sort of zero tolerance approach?

J. Wesley Saint Clair: Well the status quo at this point in time, my perspective is that it goes to a
Einstein [0:36:00] quote: Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a
different result. I think our status quo is insane because we keep on getting the same thing.
Fortunately there are many of us who are pushing that threshold, that are saying; that’s not good
enough anymore, let’s make these changes. We [0:36:30] often times have certain opportunities
to make that change. Interestingly enough when – being in a government, we are always
involved in a process of scarce resources and every year the resources get scarcer.

Most folk take that as an opportunity to “Well let’s stop doing the new things that we are doing
because – and let’s stick to the standby [0:37:00] types of activity” my response and my response
has always been, I’ve been a judge for over 20 years and so we go through this cycle very
regularly, is “Let’s stop doing the same old same old, and let’s start doing things that have
actually some outcomes that we find more palatable for some of our more challenging and
clients in need of services.”

So I would say to many people [0:37:30] “Well just because something’s been tried and true for
15 years, from my perspective that’s not working on the population that remains in our system,
so let’s have the courage to try these different programs.” An example would be that as I’ve been
fighting for services for our court, is that they’ve told us that “Gee we need to cut back on FIT
services because [0:38:00] they are thee more expensive way to do business.” My response is
“Well what’s more expensive long term, that we have these peoples in our system for the next 30
years, or do we make that investment, we spend that dollar now and then we are able to save
money in the future because we have diverted them from out system.”

So it’s very challenging as we – [0:38:30] it’s a great opportunity when we find ourselves in
these fiscal crises’ to start doing business in a different fashion. The challenge of course is that I
am considered to be a newbie to our system or I haven’t worked in the system for as long as
others have and I just don’t know. Sometimes it takes that perspective of bringing a fresh
perspective to the matter as opposed to being locked in of this is how we do business. [0:39:00]

Interviewer: You know I’ve done a lot of work around all social justice issues for many years
and it’s always; their opinion our opinion situation.

J. Wesley Saint Clair: Exactly, and our State legislators, our local legislators are constantly
challenged by that premise of “Gee I have to balance my budget today and let’s not do a new
way of [0:39:30] business that appears to be more expensive for the right now.” From my
perspective it’s being – you’re penny foolish only to have to spend the dollars in the future.

Interviewer: So what kind of hopes and expectations do you have when you think about what
the outcomes [0:40:00] could be here you know, you look down the road and you say “If we
could keep doing things this way” what do you think the outcomes would be?

J. Wesley Saint Clair: You know as I look to the future and try to say; what should we look like?
We should look like a community that’s based upon community on restorative principles,
restorative justice. We should look to a community that is providing holistic services to the
youth [0:40:30] and their families, we should be a community that are providing appropriate
options and alternatives that where detention is looked at as the absolute last resort for the most
violent of our youth, most of our youth actually don’t fall into that category, I believe they fall
into the category of being unengaged, [0:41:00] disengaged, distant and that were there a hands-
on process that was able to engage, provide successes and opportunities with it, then I would
love to be not have a job and even though in 20 years I probably won’t even be here, but in 20
years we won’t have the same sort of juvenile justice system that we currently have. [0:41:30]

We would have a system that appreciates the brilliance, that engages in a process where we teach
our youth how to go through dispute resolution, that doesn’t mean outsiders, but that they can
internally; well we’ve got this problem, let’s sit down let’s talk about, let’s come to these
resolutions and outcomes that are kind of grass roots and home grown, that the court would say;
that’s a great idea, that’s a good [0:42:00] way for us to engage our youth and our families, where
suddenly you would see the types of processes that FIT teach to our youth being implemented in
the elementary playground, that would be operating at every level of our community. That’s
what it should look like.

Interviewer: [0:42:30] So do you ever go to the graduations they put on for these kids that have
gone through FIT?

J. Wesley Saint Clair: You know I haven’t.

Interviewer: You haven’t?

J. Wesley Saint Clair: I have not gone to – now they come to my graduate – because I do Drug
Court we graduate people, but I’ve not seen one of their graduations, I’ll have to line that up.
Interviewer: I don’t know if it would – I mean is it a different thing, because this young lady
who I am going to meet next week, she is going to be done in January [0:43:00], I know she went
through Drug Court, but I don’t know if it’s a different thing but because one of the coaches was
telling me that it is so cool to see them you know, hear the words “Dismissed”.

J. Wesley Saint Clair: Oh I go to – I mean I’m the Drug Court Judge so I’m always at those
graduations. I didn’t realize that’s the graduations she’s talking about.

Interviewer: I think that’s what they are doing I’m the guy who doesn’t know what’s going on
here.

J. Wesley Saint Clair: Okay so. Yeah it is [0:43:30] so we’ve had some absolutely beautiful
graduations that show an engagement and ownership of the youth and community of each other.
I had one Drug Court graduation recently and in the midst of it, you know I go and I get up there
and I say words, you know positive words about them, and others will also speak positively
[0:44:00] and have words to share, as does the youth. And this one particular graduation we had
a call from the guys father and so you know he says “Oh hi dad how are you doing?” he says
“Fine” and the dad begins to share with him you know “How much I love you, how proud I am
of you, how just because [0:44:30] you’ve graduated Drug Court it doesn’t mean that we are or
our systems of support should wash our hands of that particular individual.”

And so then I said “So here are you calling from?”

He says “I’m calling from my counsellors office at the Washington State Department of
Corrections located in Monroe.”

“How long are you in there for?”

“I’m in there for life, x3.” [0:45:00]

There wasn’t a dry eye in the audience. It was so powerful because that shows that we have – all
aspects of our community have to care for and nurture our young even those who are distance, it
doesn’t mean that that distance diminishes the love that I have for you. It was, and I’ve done
hundreds of Drug Court graduations [0:45:30] having been on the bench for you know 10 of my
years doing Drug Court, and for as an adult Drug Court Judge, you know every month there
would be one or two, but this was one of the most powerful ones that I have ever participated in,
it was an honor to participate in.

Interviewer: Well the idea of breaking that cycle, I mean when I explain to people these projects
that I’ve been working on, I try and point out that [0:46:00] most of the people who show up
around here are not sociopaths, you know there’s something back there that’s sort of propelled
them into their situation and that we have to find a way to break that cycle somehow.

J. Wesley Saint Clair: You know the interesting thing when you speak of Truancy when I came
to Juvenile Court one of my first – one time a week for a calendar, a morning [0:46:30], I would
go to KIDS, which is around 30 miles from here, to participate in a Truancy calendar, in the State
of Washington, if you don’t go to school a certain number of days the result is that the School
District can file a petition and the Court can then, if the Court finds it to be sufficient, can order
you to go to school and impose certain sanctions if you don’t which include jail, detention for
juveniles. [0:47:00]

I did that calendar for around 3 years until recently I just stopped doing it, my duties here are
kind of telling me to stay here. But I learned a lot from that process, I learned one that detention
is not a good place to send someone when they don’t go to school, it just further isolates them.
Often times our youth have a great reason for not going to school; bullying, [0:47:30]mental
health issues typically, substance abuse issues is common, anxiety, PTSDs, sexual assault. And
what I learned through that process was that we have to listen to our youth because they’ll tell
you if they think you care.

And so, but the real thing [0:48:00] I learned was that Truancy Court maybe doesn’t work so
much, I’m not sure it’s a great utilization of resource to think that the court, because I’m ordering
you to do something, is really going to have an impact and my belief now is, you know and I’ve
heard a couple thousand cases I would say at one point I did a calculation about how many cases
a year I am listening to and [0:48:30] how many successes did I truly have, and there is only a
handful, maybe two handfuls, so I’m talking about 10 cases out of thee 1500 to 2000 cases. And
so you know my I take away from that is; well maybe we need to push our interventions onto the
community, because just because I make you come to court, just because [0:49:00] I can make
you do things is not a guarantee that there is going to be any follow through.

So I’m – that experience has led me to kind of be a part of the charge that says; let’s start doing
something different because the way we’ve doing it, I’m sorry it’s not effective innovation model
that justifies the expenditures associated with it. Let’s look at those community accountability
Truancy boards, [0:49:30] let’s look at the various proposes that have come from various
jurisdictions even within the state of Washington about how to do business better, because that
education piece is kind of the first push away that our kids feel and why I don’t want to go to
school is because I’m behind, I don’t know, I’m uncomfortable, and suddenly now when I have
to go to court I have a great excuse not to go to school [0:50:00] because I got to go to court.

So it goes back to that whole motto of; let’s not keep doing the same thing over and over again
that has a minimums impact and let’s look at these deeper issues that may actually give us an
opportunity to make some radical changes to the outcomes of our youth by putting those services
instead of in the court, let’s put them in the community [0:50:30], lets really make people, let’s
make the school district do what – their job, they’re supposed to be educating people not kicking
them out. If you’re going to put them out because of a disciplinary issue, then that doesn’t
alleviate your obligation to educate them because that’s the motto that we currently have; you’ve
been kicked out so now I don’t have to do my job anymore, I only want to deal with the kids that
I can manage and not the ones that I cant.

Interviewer: [0:51:00] So I want to circle back, I know it’s late and I really appreciate all you’ve
shared with us, but one of the issues going back to this whole DMC thing, that a data point that
was brought up to me recently was not that it’s the aggregate number of kids so much as it’s the
time and life at which they first encounter the system. Is that something that seems consistent
with your experience, or are [0:51:30] kids of color just sort of coming into contact sooner and
more frequently for reasons that I can’t anticipate, probably relate to things that you’ve already
talked about, the issues of poverty and disenfranchisement like you know the whole like single
mother head of household, you know the traumas that happen socially around their lives, but is
that what you are seeing are these littler kids that get a bigger rap sheet as a consequence so by
the [0:52:00] time they are 18 they are sort of like you know tumbling off the edge more
dramatically?

J. Wesley Saint Clair: You know that’s a – on the issue of DMC and it almost goes to you know
the whole underlying structural issues that are associated with it. When you look at this thing
called adverse childhood experiences, one of the major adverse [0:52:30] childhood experience
is having a relative or loved one incarcerated. We – and the whole aspect of there not being a
male role model, often times for black kids, and in my court they say “You know Judge you are
Dad to so many of our kids, because you are dependable, you are countable [0:23:00], you treat
people with respect, you look for those positives” – my team keeps me focused on the positives
because you know as a Judge I often at times look for the negatives, “and you’re fulfilling that
role.”

Well one of the adverse childhood experience is having an adult in prison and there are times
when were you have to ask the question [0:53:30] in Juvenile Drug Court: how many people
have a relative or parent who are incarcerated? I would say close to 90% would raise their
hands. Once you have too many of these adverse childhood experiences in place then you have
the almost the perfect storm that’s happening both interpersonal, you have the school in a “push
out” mode [0:54:00] that actually feeds the school the prison pipeline, the school push out. And
then you have youth who are having all these – and then we of course we have our media saying
you need to acquire this, you need have this to be cool to be popular.

And so you have youth are without who want, who are trying to acquire that without the means
or [0:54:30] skillsets, even having and seeing them within their own environment, it just
becomes this, I don’t like the term perfect storm but it becomes the circumstances where there
are so many imbalances that are occurring wherever they look, in their personal life, in their
school life, they have a societal view of your being less, a societal view [0:55:00] of – when I
walk into a store I get followed because I’m a black man. When there is a process whereby the
police are paying more attention to you, if you are a youth of color, a black youth in King County
you are, I think the statistic is: 7 times more likely to [0:55:30] be interacted with.

And you know there are times when as a jurist you go “Yeah right” “Yeah right” “Sure” and then
after a while when you hear too many stories you start looking at the data that supports it, then
suddenly you find yourself; yeah that is happening, that’s happening to – doesn’t make any
difference to what strata you are at in society, whether it was me as a graduate of a Law School
and a graduate [0:56:00] of Ivy League School, I get treated the same. The only time I get
treated differently is when I’m on the bench in this role, when I’m off the bench; I’m just one of
them.

So the challenge is that; how do we change that dynamic, how do we begin a model that gives us
the ability to address it and to put in place the [0:56:30] foundations – and you know sometimes
the conversation is “Well why did you come into juvenile justice? Why didn’t you come into
education?” because I want to teach people, “Why didn’t you come into social services” because
I wanted to be there to support the youth as they are facing these challenges, and so then the
question is “So how do you think that’s going?”

And sometimes it gets paused and I say “Well whose being successful in your class? Is this
[0:57:00] a manifestation of you know our society as a whole, or is this just a slither of it?
What’s happening to that part that’s being excluded? Do you care? Because you understand
what you do here in this classroom, impacts their future.”

If we can give people a chance to pause and think it through in a fashion that is non-judgmental
but just informational you use the data, you know I use [0:57:30] the data with my judges, I say
so we pride ourselves in the Northwest of being not racial, where that bias doesn’t exist with us, I
say but when you look at the numbers of whose being sentenced for what, what does that tell us,
“Well I’m not biased”, I understand that you’re not biased but we as systems we are having these
outcomes and we now have to have the courage and step up and say “Yeah I may not be bias but
we’re having these outcomes [0:58:00] and so maybe we need to start addressing this in a more
honest fashion.”

Interviewer: I think that’s encouraging that people can learn, you know, I mean we have made
progress over time, even though it’s not been as dramatic but I mean I hope [0:58:30], you know,
my kids know better, I hope.

J. Wesley Saint Clair: Have we made progress? Yes. Have we made progress where I would
write to my parents and say; the system that I encountered in the early 1960’s [0:59:00] in
Omaha, Nebraska no longer exist in our society and community, I couldn’t write that letter. We
have a black president, great, but our disparity, the wealth differential, the continued utilization
of zero tolerance as a way to further disenfranchise whole generations[0:59:30], it continues, it is
alive and well. The fact that our prison industrial complex is well funded seems to be vital in
certain communities such that the vested interest of it makes it so that no one wants to have this
conversation.

I guess my letter to [1:00:00] my mom would be; well mom I think that I can remember when I
integrated the schools in Omaha, but we haven’t come that far, we’ve made progress in some
ways, we’ve got a black president, but in other ways the problem has been made worse, is more
insipid, it is much more difficult to deal with, it is much more deep seeded [1:00:30] as the
power continues, the power and wealth continues to accumulate in smaller and smaller
percentages.

Interviewer: So, what do we do? Begs the question doesn’t it. What’s the solution to this?

J. Wesley Saint Clair: Well, the solution – you know it would be, and I don’t mean to be doom
and gloom about it but I think it just takes [1:01:00] people of integrity to be willing to step
forward and have these conversations and engage our systems, our systems operate in very much
in siloed fashion not knowing, the right hand not knowing what the left hand – the pointer finger
not knowing what the little finger is doing type of model.
And so we just have to be really diligent, we have to feel and urgency [1:01:30], and I feel a
great urgency in this matter because you know I’m nearing the twilight of my career, and I’m
feeling that we as leaders in our community have to step forward and agitate and keep that
urgency and look for those success, and the beauty of a program like FIT [1:02:00], it’s a
success, yet at the same time we say we don’t want to do that because it’s too costly, right let’s
spend more money in the future because we want to save you know a few pennies here. It
doesn’t make any sense, we need to have the courage to make those systemic changes and
institutions and expenditures and priorities so that we can actually benefit a much larger
[1:02:30] group of folk, maybe the whole community.

Interviewer: Thank you. I appreciate that. I’m going to share that with some folks.

J. Wesley Saint Clair: Okay.

Interviewer: We got it all. Did we get all that?

[Inaudible] [1:02:52]

[1:03:00]

[Audio ends]

[1:03:03]