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My Switch To SSD - HDTach Results Inside

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bmwman91
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My Switch To SSD - HDTach Results Inside

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#1 Post by bmwman91 Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:53 am

So I was previously using a WD Scorpio Black 750GB HDD in my T60p. It was nice and roomy, and about
as fast as I would expect a HDD to be on a SATA-I bus. Well, I wanted to speed things up more so I put
in a Samsung 830 Series 256GB SSD to see how it did. The SSD is definitely faster than the laptop lol
(probably about 4X since it supports SATA-III). Despite this, the increase in speed is noticeable since
SSDs do a heck of a lot better in sequential reads/writes than HDDs. Here are some screenshots from
HDTach.

The 750GB HDD.

The new 256GB SSD.
Comparing whole averages, the SSD is 35% faster in sequential reads (117.5 MB/s vs 87.2 MB/s).
Ignoring the slow performance on the inside diameter of the platter, the SSD is still ~28% faster in
sequential reads (117.5 MB/s vs ~92MB/s). Burst speed is pretty similar and only 6% higher. CPU
utilization is also the same. A huge difference lies in seek time, for obvious reasons. The SSD kills the
HDD with a 0.1ms seek time versus the HDD's 15.8ms. Obviously, having no physically moving parts
helps a lot with that!

What are my overall impressions? Well, the laptop sort of got a new lease on life from this. Boot times
(pressing power button to browsing in Chrome) went from ~46 seconds to ~29 seconds. Applications
start up MUCH faster, and web browsing is actually faster since page cache writes/reads cause less of a
drag now. Overall, I am very satisfied. Yes, the lower capacity means that I don't keep all of my media
& stuff on the SSD. I am keeping the 750GB HDD and running it in an Ultrabay adapter. Speed doesn't
really matter for it since it just keeps media now. I am thinking of getting a cheap Ultrabay adapter,
gutting everything but a little of the frame, facia & interlock and running like that to shave off some
weight. My music and digital photos can live on the SSD since I really don't need much else outside of
the house!

Anyway, I highly recommend the upgrade to an SSD. Speeds seem to vary depending on the capacity of
the SSD, even within the same product line. 256GB is a little overkill, but it seemed to have the best
performance figures (not that it matters on my crusty old SATA-I bus!). I wonder if there are any
hardware mods that can be done to improve SATA speeds...? I looked up the datasheets for the Intel
chipsets and there's no way to swap to the ICH8 one used in T61p's really. The BGAs are different, and
really the only logical choice then is to swap motherboards. Oh well, I am plenty happy with this as it is
now!

EDIT:
Here are the results from CrystalDiskMark.

WD 750GB HDD

Samsung 256GB SSD

 So, again sequential performance is a bit better, but the SSD UTTERLY DESTROYS the HDD in random
seek performance. Considering that the seek time on an SSD is less than 1/150th of that for the HDD,
this isn't super surprising. Still, it is a huge difference.
Last edited by bmwman91 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
W530 | 3920XM | 32GB PC3-12800 | Quadro K2000M | 500GB Samsung 840 | 256GB Samsung 840 |
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spuddog
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Re: My Switch To SSD - HDTach Results Inside

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#2 Post by spuddog Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:37 am

Try Middleton's bios, sorry just noticed the T60p don't know that it would work with. research it.
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dr_st
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Re: My Switch To SSD - HDTach Results Inside

Quote

#3 Post by dr_st Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:56 am

Thank you for this review / benchmark.

Question - are you running Win7 or a pre-Win7 OS (with no TRIM support). I understand that TRIM is
quite important for the random access performance of SSDs.

Might I also suggest that you try benchmarking using CrystalDiskMark. It should make the difference in
random access speed (small clusters) super-obvious.

If anything, I am quite surprised how well the mechanical drive held up in this test. At least in
sequential speeds, it seems that there is far more difference between a modern 7200RPM drive and an
old 5400RPM one than between the said 7200RPM and an SSD which is capped by SATA1. (my measly
5400RPM drive which came stock with the T60 barely reached 40MB/s in the same HDTach test. In fact I
think the computer would feel much snappier with a faster drive. I was contemplating an SSD, but now
I wonder whether I shouldn't just get a fast 7200RPM in terms of bang for the buck.

With that said, your reported boot/responsiveness differences are impressive nonwithstanding. So
maybe SSD is the way to go, even such an old machine, even without Win7...
Current: X220 4291-4BG, T410 2537-R46, T60 1952-F76, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G
Collectibles: T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X32 (IPS Screen)
Retired: X61 7673-V2V, A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad
Past: Z61t 9440-A23, T60 2623-D3U, X32 2884-M5U
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think_madness

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Re: My Switch To SSD - HDTach Results Inside

Quote
 #4 Post by think_madness Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:54 pm

Dr_st,

According to his sig he's running Win 7 Ultimate in his machine!!

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bmwman91
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Re: My Switch To SSD - HDTach Results Inside

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#5 Post by bmwman91 Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:47 pm

When I get home I will swap HDDs and try CrystalMark. I didn't wipe the old one or anything so it should
be super easy to test both.

Yup, Win7 Ultimate x64. I think that any version of Win7 would perform about the same in this case
though. I am not sure how WinXP would do with it. It seems that a LOT of people still run XP, either
because Win7 is $$$ or because they got scared off by Vista. My T60p wins WAY faster with Win7x64,
and it uses less system resources than XP even with all the fancy visual effects turned on.I highly
recommend it.

The old HDD is this one:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6822136835

The new one is this one:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820147138

The WD HDD did do pretty well for being an HDD. I think that the large capacity helps a lot since it can
store more data around the platter's outside diameter where it can be accessed faster. Despite that,
the SSD kills it lol...even on the slow old SATA-I interface!

What is the Middleton BIOS and what advantages does it offer? I am already running (someone here's)
hacked one that bypasses the WiFi card whitelist. It was form a couple years ago, though.
 W530 | 3920XM | 32GB PC3-12800 | Quadro K2000M | 500GB Samsung 840 | 256GB Samsung 840 |
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RealBlackStuff
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Re: My Switch To SSD - HDTach Results Inside

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#6 Post by RealBlackStuff Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:16 pm

Middleton's BIOS versions are only suitable for T61/R61/X61, nothing else.
They enable SATA II/300 speed, bypass the wifi-list, bypass thermal error on some boards and a few
other goodies.
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bmwman91
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Re: My Switch To SSD - HDTach Results Inside

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#7 Post by bmwman91 Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:57 pm

Understood, thanks.

Oh yeah, regarding the fast boot times...

 I don't run any anti-virus software and keep the list of startup applications to an absolute minimum. I
DO run Objectdock and a few sidebar gadgets, but overall I keep my installation running clean & lean.
Boots get very slow if you don't maintain the list of applications putting startup registry keys in!
Google, Adobe, mouse drivers, you name it...they all want to rob your boot performance! CCleaner to
the rescue!
W530 | 3920XM | 32GB PC3-12800 | Quadro K2000M | 500GB Samsung 840 | 256GB Samsung 840 |
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bmwman91
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Re: My Switch To SSD - HDTach Results Inside

Quote

#8 Post by bmwman91 Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:35 pm

I added the results from CrystalDiskMark to the original post.

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Backslashnl1
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Re: My Switch To SSD - HDTach Results Inside

Quote

#9 Post by Backslashnl1 Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:48 am

With my previous SSD I also did some benchmarking and I still have the screenshots to prove it

OCZ Vertex (1) with default Bios on T61:

OCZ Vertex with Middleton bios (full Sata2 speed):
And my current SSD with Middleton bios:
 As you can see with the Middleton bios you only see a difference with sequential read/writes, which is
useful for large file copying.
As an OS disk you will also see a major speed increase with a SSD on Sata 1 speed.
T61 FrankenPad | 15.0" IPS UXGA flexview + LED | C2D T9500 @ 2,6 Ghz | T500 fan / T61 heatsink | 8GB
Micron dual channel | Samsung 840 Pro 256GB SSD | nVidia Quadro NVS 140M | NNB Keyboard | BroadCom
802.11AC 867Mbps + BT 4.0 | OS-X 10.9.1 Mavericks + Win7
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br0adband

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Re: My Switch To SSD - HDTach Results Inside

Quote

#10 Post by br0adband Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:05 am

bmwman91:

That WD 750GB Scorpio Black is an AFD drive, so that's part of the reason the sequential read
performance is so high (it uses 4KB sectors instead of the traditional ones at 512 bytes).
I just got a T60 14" model (ATI X1400 128MB, XGA+ 1400x1050 panel, etc) at a pawn shop last week for
$80+tax and it's nearly in mint condition, I swear. Been thinking about upgrades (has 2GB in it
presently, I know about the 3GB limit since I already have a 15" T60 as well), and an SSD seems to be
the only real alternative at this point.

My intention was almost exactly the same: get an SSD for the primary system drive and use an Ultrabay
adapter for either a 750GB drive (could be WD, Hitachi, or Seagate, I don't care about read speeds/etc,
it's primarily just for raw storage in the laptop) so it's nice to see some benchmarks.

One question: are you using the very latest Intel chipset INF drivers/etc as well as the latest SATA
controller drivers (they're two different things, and require installation separately) when you do that
testing?

Considering that SATA I should be able to give up 140-145MB/second speeds (150MB is the theoretical
max so it's almost always under that), it seems a bit odd that your SSD is only showing speeds around
117MB/s - that's nearly 30MB/s being lost somewhere and I'm suspecting it could be because you're
using the 'stock" Windows default drivers for the chipset INF setup as well as the SATA controller - and
you do have it in ACHI mode, I'm hoping, right?

If you get a chance to update those drivers/INF and then retest, I'd love to see the updated results -
there SHOULD be some improvement across the board. The stock Windows drivers are from 2006 which
is [censored] old and they are meant for absolute compatibility, not performance.

You can get the very latest chipset INF installer here:

http://downloadcenter.intel.com/Detail_ ... 2&lang=eng

If that link is borked, hit support.intel.com and search for "chipset inf" and get the latest one which
covers the 945GM chipset in the T60.

Grab the .exe installer - and this is MOST important - you need to force the installation to overwrite
the Windows drivers by installing the drivers "manually" from a Command Prompt with the switch -
overall. That means open a Command Prompt (doesn't have to be Admin level), navigate to where the
infinst_autol.exe is and then use the command:

infinst_autol.exe - overall (then press Enter)

to do the manual install/update. It will install every single updated inf driver/config for every piece of
hardware that's covered by the installer (you'll get a bunch of the "dunk dunk" sounds as the hardware
is detected and the drivers installed and configured). After a reboot you'd then need to install the
updated Rapid Storage Technology SATA controller drivers from here:

http://downloadcenter.intel.com/Detail_ ... 2&lang=eng

If the link is borked, just hit support.intel.com and search support for "rapid storage technology" and
grab the latest floppy F6 drivers, same link.

Get the x86 or x64 drivers as appropriate, extract the archive to a folder, then use Device Manager to
update your SATA controller driver (in the IDE ATA/ATAPI controllers section) so you end up with this:

You should get higher speeds from that SSD than the ~118MB/s it's showing. Also, HDTach isn't that
great a benchmark anymore for many reasons. HDTune is better, and offers more capabilities
(including the option for more accurate benching but, I suppose at those speeds you're not really that
concerned).

Anyway, hope this helps improve your current level of performance (and anyone else with a T60 can
improve theirs as well by installing the very latest INF using that -overall switch and then updating to
the very latest SATA controller driver as well (dated 10/17/11 and not the slower less efficient stock
Windows one from June 2006).

Benchmark results on this T60 of mine (my 15" and the 14" as well) went up about 11% when switching
from the stock Windows inf/SATA drivers to the updated ones, so... considering the age of this
hardware it doesn't hurt to get the best from it that's possible.

If you've already done all this, ignore this post entirely...

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bmwman91
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Re: My Switch To SSD - HDTach Results Inside

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#11 Post by bmwman91 Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:19 am

Hey br0adband,

As I am sure this will be to your dismay, yes, I had already installed the latest Intel chipset & SATA
drivers. I am well aware that the stock Windows ones suck.

I believe that the bottleneck in the T60p is actually the chipset. It just can't handle true SATA-150
speeds, or at least that is what I remember seeing in this section a long time ago. Certainly, this SSD
can easily do well over 150MB/s as benchmarks all over the web show. The drivers are the most
current, and it is just a limitation of the Napa platform & its age.
W530 | 3920XM | 32GB PC3-12800 | Quadro K2000M | 500GB Samsung 840 | 256GB Samsung 840 |
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TuuS
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Re: My Switch To SSD - HDTach Results Inside

Quote

#12 Post by TuuS Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:15 am

Been thinking about upgrades (has 2GB in it presently, I know about the 3GB limit since I already have a 15"
T60 as well), and an SSD seems to be the only real alternative at this point.

The SSD will give you much faster virtual memory performance, and since you're limited to 3gb of ram,
your system will be forced to use paging files/virtual memory, so the SSD will give more advantage
then you'd normally expect.

The only other upgrade I'd consider is retrofitting a T61 board, which will allow upto 8gb of ram and
faster cpu options, but one important drawback is you'd have to choose between settling for integrated
graphics, or risking possible failure of nvidia gpu on the discrete models. If you get a discrete board
that's never failed, there is a very good chance it will work for many years without issue, but
unfortunately there is no shortage of people who will reflow or bake a failed board and sell it, which is
sure to fail, but good tested boards are available from myself and other sellers here. One additional
 benefit to the T61 board is they support SATA2, so your SSD will perform much faster. I'm currently
using a FrankNpad T60p with T61p board, 8gb ram, 2.8ghz X9000 cpu and 128gb lenovo (toshiba) SSD.
This is one mean system and has a beautiful boe hydis uxga screen.

I'm currently in the process of building another with a rare penryn board with discrete graphics
(42w7873), T9300 cpu, 4gb ram and a beautiful SXGA+ IPS screen. It may become my "daily driver" so I
don't put a lot of wear/tear on my other system which has cost me enough to buy several laptops lol
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br0adband

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Re: My Switch To SSD - HDTach Results Inside

Quote

#13 Post by br0adband Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:47 am

Not meaning to hijack the thread, but... I thought a T61 board (not a T61p) wouldn't fit in the T60 (not
T60p) chassis because of internal differences...? I don't care about Nvidia graphics and I avoid them at
all costs anyway, so the X3100 on the 965 chipset would be more than enough I suppose, but I was
under the impression that a T61 mobo wasn't just a simple "drop in replacement" on the 14" T60, or
even the 15" because of differences... guess I need to do more research.

That's most certainly an option and getting SATA II support would be a big benefit, definitely.
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bmwman91
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Re: My Switch To SSD - HDTach Results Inside

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#14 Post by bmwman91 Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:09 am

 While an SSD certainly can improve virtual memory operation, I think that it is hardly a selling point.
Even with a 3GB RAM limitation on the T60, if you are actually occupying all of it, then one of two
things is going on:
1) You don't do any system maintenance and have 32760326474583 vestigial background processes
running and you should do something about that.
2) You are doing hardcore gaming, video editing, CAD work or data analysis, in which case, a 5+ year
old Thinkpad is the wrong machine for you.

I do plenty of CAD work on mine, image editing, MatLAB, etc. Never have I run out of physical memory.
Maybe some people like to do all of that at the same time, I don't know, but I usually don't do more
than one or two of those things at a time. Heck, I usually just run with NO page file at all! That hasn't
caused me any issues in years.

So, technically you are correct that an SSD is advantageous in offering better v-mem performance.

As far as T61 mobo swaps go, I have no idea. For the stuff I do, I could never consider integrated
graphics (MAYBE the Ivy Bridge HD4000 could cut it), but the T61's with dedicated nVidia graphics were
timebombs. I had one at work back when they were new, and within 12 months the video output would
shut off when I ran the GPU hard. It is truly unfortunate, because a T61p mobo with a GPU in a T60p
case with a Flexview screen is the bee's knees as far as I am concerned. Would running a T500 fan (the
other thread I am frequenting right now) on a T61p mobo with dedicated graphics help to prevent the
GPU failure?
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bmwman91
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Re: My Switch To SSD - HDTach Results Inside

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#15 Post by bmwman91 Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:15 am

Oh and here's a really sad thing.

 My current work machine is a W520 with a 2720QM CPU, 16GB RAM and dedicated GPU. When put to a
specific task, it blows away my T60p. In terms of system FEEL, it is a total slug thanks to the corporate
Win7 image I am required to run. My GOD, I hate it. From cold boot to browsing in Chrome takes almost
3 minutes, wheras my T60p takes about 30 seconds. Loading applications and menus is arduously slow
on the W520...what a freaking shame! I know that it is all the corp garbage, and I have vented to our IT
guy (he's great, but not much he can do about it). At the same time, I get a lot of satisfaction out of
owning this "ancient" T60p that generally blows away any new one with an OEM image in terms of
responsiveness. It still does well in terms of performance since it can load applications faster and get
to work sooner to make-up for its aging hardware.

I ran HDTach on the W520. Average sequential speed was ~87MB/s, burst was ~160MB/s and seek time
was 17.8ms. It is a Seagate Momentus 7200.4 500GB HDD. So, the s****y HDD performance really is the
fault of that piece of junk, rather than the laptop itself. Why Lenovo (or IT, I don't know) would build a
powerhouse like the W520 and then cripple it with a 3 year old HDD is beyond me. I am askign IT for an
SSD lol.
W530 | 3920XM | 32GB PC3-12800 | Quadro K2000M | 500GB Samsung 840 | 256GB Samsung 840 |
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Backslashnl1
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Re: My Switch To SSD - HDTach Results Inside

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#16 Post by Backslashnl1 Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:35 am

You could consider to create an extra partition on that W520 and install your own "private" Windows
with dual boot. That's what I did on my T61 laptop from work, which also had a very slow configuration
with virus scanners and a buch of other crap
At the time I had to return it I removed the extra partition and disabled the dual boot menu.
T61 FrankenPad | 15.0" IPS UXGA flexview + LED | C2D T9500 @ 2,6 Ghz | T500 fan / T61 heatsink | 8GB
Micron dual channel | Samsung 840 Pro 256GB SSD | nVidia Quadro NVS 140M | NNB Keyboard | BroadCom
802.11AC 867Mbps + BT 4.0 | OS-X 10.9.1 Mavericks + Win7
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bmwman91
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Re: My Switch To SSD - HDTach Results Inside

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#17 Post by bmwman91 Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:41 am

That's a neat idea. It wouldn't really work for me though since a lot of what I do uses the corpnet
permissions that are in the IT image to handle sharepoint access and various network resources. I
would be typing passwords in all day!

I'm going to talk to our IT guy when I am back in the US and see what work-arounds we can come up
with.
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