Gabby Rivera, pt 2

Nia King: So what's it like writing for Marvel?

Gabby Rivera: [laughs] Wahhh! Listen, I just want to say that this whole thing has been
so wild, but one of the quintessential, holy universe Goddess oh-my-God moments, was
when I was writing Storm in number three. I hadn't thought about it. We were like Oh,
we should have nuh-nuh-nuh. Who should we have? And I was like Storm. And
everyone was like Oh yes, Storm! But I didn't even think about it. And then I'm sitting
in my room, and I'm writing this script. And I write Storm's name, and then the colon,
right, for dialogue? And everything in my room stopped. And I was like I'm writing
Storm! [Nia laughs] I'm writing I'm writing Storm! [laughs] And I just jumped up.
I didn't even know what to do with myself. I was hopping around. My tetas were up and
down and here, and my pants were falling down. I couldn't believe that it just hit me. So
at 11 o'clock, I called my mom. And I just know in my mind that my mom was on her
way to bed. She was in her batita [?], watching Late Night, Conan, or whatever. She
likes Jimmy Fallon. Jimmy Fallon or whatever. And I called her, and she was like
Nena! What's wrong? Are you OK? Oh my God! And I'm like Mom! I'm writing
Storm! She's like What are you talking about? What do you mean you Oh my God!
Oh my Then she's like Charlie, she's writing Storm! Gabrielle right now is writing
para Storm! [laughs] Because my parents are huge nerds. They're trekkies, but they're
also nerds. X-Men, 1950s-60s American comics, that's their shit. And I heard my dad in
the background going like Ayy, that's beautiful. [laughs]

So that's just one of the moments where I was like Ah, man. Maybe I'm actually part of
something. This is something. For as humble and as small as I try to keep myself
sometimes, this is a moment where I feel so big. And then I did some research, and I
realized that no woman of color had written for Storm.

Nia: Jesus Christ. [laughs] And Storm's been around for, how long?

[insert intro]

Gabby: Think about that. As I'm writing for Storm, no woman of color's ever written
for her, and yet at the same time I'm writing [AMERICA] number three, the first time
ever, a Black woman is being hired to write for Storm, by Marvel. I found that out in my
research, too. Literally, within a couple of weeks of each other, in that time period. So I
was like Wow, something It took this long. It took this long, until 2017 to have a
Black woman write for Storm? Wow! Wow. OK, we gotta do this. We're here. Here I
am. I'm going to do it. And so I love that. That felt really big. And I loved being able
to utilize Storm in a way where she could provide mentorship for America Chavez, and
tenderness. And also be a display of phenomenal strength and power. And what's it like
for two women of color to be able to look at each other as equals, and mentors, and share
that space?

Nia: Yeah. To write for a character that has such a long history, like Storm, do you have
to do hella research? [both laugh] Do you have to read everything she's ever done to
make sure that your story is consistent with some shit that she would do? [laughs]

Gabby: Listen, it's almost like you're never going to be consistent in the Marvel
Universe, because there's so many iterations of, especially iconic figures, like the X-Men,
right? But I definitely do a lot of research. And I feel like that has been clutch. One of
the best things about working with Marvel is that they know they're the experts in the
Marvel Universe. So any questions that I have, they're like Read this issue. Read this
issue. We've just emailed you ten issues of the 1960s run of Storm. So, you bet your
ass that when they send me that stuff, and when I ask for it, I read it. I wanna know! So
for Storm, especially 80s Storm I read 80s Storm stuff, 1960s Storm stuff, to get a feel
for her in her space, and the atrium It's also for me, how much dialogue, or what the
dialogue is going to be like. How does Storm talk in her world? And what can we say?

So yeah, hella research, but also me being like, Well also, like, fuck it. [both laugh] I
want to know, of all the white men who have written for Storm, how many of them were
tediously going through past editions of Storm to just get the right Storm, you know? We
choose to do that work, because we want to be better. So also I feel like there's room for
us to be like Fuck it. If I want Storm to be like rale! that's what she's going to say.
If I want Storm to be speaking like a deity, or being like Mufasa or something, [Nia
laughs] you know what I mean? If you want Storm to be this, or grand, or punk, or your
trash bag friend who never takes a shower, you have the right. You know what I mean?
So I went for kinda like sexy mentor Storm. [laughs]

Nia: Cool. I think I want to go back to talking about Juliet Takes a Breath, if that's cool.

Gabby: Yeah, whatever you want.

Nia: I always want to ask fiction writers this how much of it is true? [both laugh]

Gabby: You know, a lot of it is true. In Juliet Takes a Breath, I definitely went on an
internship with a white feminist writer, just like Juliet does. If you get a chance, read a
book called Cunt by Inga Muscio. I mean it's definitely Womanhood is definitely
gendered in a way that it isn't, and it shouldn't be, now, but I think a lot of the impactful
moments of Cunt was literally me just reading about patriarchy and misogyny, and this
woman's experience in her body, right? So I was so impacted by that that I went and I
did an internship [with Inga]. So a lot of Juliet Takes a Breath is autobiographical. I
came out at the dinner table. I've dated white women

Nia: Right before your internship?

Gabby: [laughs] No, but right before New Years Eve. I did that queer thing where it
was post-Christmas, but before New Years. Right in that lull? That's when I came out.
[laughs]

Nia: Is that Coming Out Week? [laughs]

Gabby: Yes. Y'all didn't know? That is officially Come Out to Your Puerto Rican
Parents Week.

Nia: OK. [both laugh]

Gabby: Yeah, also, my brother's gay.

Nia: Do you have a little brother?

Gabby: Yeah.

Nia: Like Lil' Melvin?

Gabby: Lil' Melvin. Lil' Melvin is heavily based off my life with my brother Phil.
[laughs]

Nia: He's the most adorable character. So sweet. It's so cute.

Gabby: Literally lesbians and queer folks across the board have the softest spot for Lil'
Melvin. Somehow we're all Melvin. [both laugh] So a lot of it [is true]. Butand I say
this everywherebut Inga Muscio did not ever racialize me in the way that Harlow
racializes Juliet. Which isn't to say we didn't ever have conversations We definitely
had conversations about race, and whiteness, and being brown. Inga never did that. But,
when I was writing Juliet, especially re-writing it, I felt like that was a necessary
component to discuss the harmful elements of white feminism, and also white supremacy.
Because it often comes in the form of love. It comes from someone we love. It's easy to
be like Fuck those Nazis! They're out there, they're burning their crosses! And it's easy
to be like Those are the bad guys. What's much harder to navigate is when that shit
comes from people we love and respect. Who know us. And who we imagine should
know better. In my head, I was like That's where the conversation is, you know?

Nia: Yeah. I think part of what feels really unique about Juliet is that it's naming the
demon that is white feminism. [both laugh] You know? Well, talking about how it feels
to be like If you ask me what the book was about, I think I would say it's about a
young queer... A baby dyke, a Puerto Rican baby dyke, trying to figure out how to
survive in a white feminist world. [pauses] [laughs]

Gabby: Yup.

Nia: And I feel like for a lot of queer women of color in our generation We have these
conversations in private about how alienating white feminism is, and being in feminist
spaces that are majority white is, but we can't It's a really hard thing to name in
public

Gabby: Yup.
Nia: --and to identify the behaviors that make certain spaces so hostile. Yeah. I feel like
there's a bunch of queers, a bunch of QPOC in Portland right now that are a big fan of
this book, which was probably already true. But I lent it to my friend Vo, who then lent it
to a bunch of other QPOC

Gabby: Yeaaah!

Nia: --and now they're all like Oh, you're interviewing Gabby? Gabby's the best!

Gabby: Oh, cool! Oh my God! Hi everybody! [both laugh]

Nia: So I guess I just wanted to say that part of what felt It's not just about the hippie-
ness that is Portland. You don't need me to tell you what your book is about [laughs]

Gabby: No, talk to me. No, I want to hear. I'm here.

Nia: But it's about how white feminists make us feel small. And being able to name
that, and identify that as a problem, and dream beyond white feminism, or a white-
dominated feminism. Because I feel like for a long time even I didn't call myself a
feminist, because I felt like that was a white thing.

Gabby: Mmhmm.

Nia: I feel like in the last ten years or so, women of color on Twitter have really
reclaimed feminism.

Gabby: Yes. Yes.

Nia: But it wasn't always like that. [laughs]

Gabby: Mmhmm. Mmhmm.

Nia: I'm trying to figure out what my question is. [both laugh]

Gabby: I'm here. I'm here for it.

Nia: I guess I'm curious how Inga felt about it. Because I feel like I could tell the
book It's a very loose, very thinly disguised [laughs] You know? Like Raging
Flower is the name of the book, in the book, and

Gabby: I did my best! OK? [laughs]

Nia: No, no, no. I'm not trying to

Gabby: How funny is that, though? OK, wait, go ahead.

Nia: I knew it was Inga, and I knew it was Cunt right away

Gabby: Ohh.

Nia: --because I read that book in high school, also.

Gabby: Ohh!

Nia: So, yeah, so I was just curious. OK, so there's a character named Harlow, who's
based on Inga. She does some pretty shitty things, [laughs] especially toward the end.
Some things that are really hurtful toward the protagonist. Yeah, I guess I was
wondering how Inga felt about that, because I was like Ooh, you kinda threw her under
the bus a little bit.

Gabby: Yeah, no, we talked a lot. And at first when I was there with her, she was like
Please don't ever write about me. And I never had intentions of writing a book. Like I
said, I didn't think I could. So I took it off my plate. I was a poet, short story writer,
done. So I was like Sure, I'll never write about you. And then Ariel came with the
idea, and then me and Inga just had a bunch of talks. And basically our talks were her
being like You have to live. You have to write your story, and your experience. And I
support you and I love you, and I will always support you, and I love you.

Nia: So she came around 180 [degrees] from Don't write about me to Do what you
gotta to do.

Gabby: Yeah, and the don't write about me thing was less about Gabriel Rivera, don't
write about Inga Muscio, and more like it being at the height of popularity for Cunt.
And her worrying about, just her sense of privacy, and allowing someone to just come
into her life, like she allowed me. So I definitely registered it as such, and when we
talked about it later, she was like That was just a very heightened time for me. Inga's
so proud of the book. She has shouted it from the rooftops. She's very proud of me

Nia: Oh, you mean of your book.

Gabby: Yeah, my book.

Nia: I'm sorry, I thought you were talking about Cunt.

Gabby: Inga is super proud of Juliet Takes a Breath. She has been a support. She was a
reader.

Nia: I mean the first quote [on the back of the book] is from her, the first blurb.

Gabby: [laughs] Yeah, she loves it. So it's been great. And also, anyone that knows her
sees where Harlow is Harlow, and Inga is Inga. You know, 100%, so yeah. No, it's been
great. And I was scared at first, like Is this person that I love and admire, going to hate
me for kind of using the symbol of them to have this much bigger, and very important
conversation? And so when we talked about that Inga Muscio is just wild. She was
like You gotta do what you gotta do. And if that's how we can have this conversation,
then let's do it. She was like, Make me the most terrible white lady ever. [laughs] I
was like Oh Lord, OK. We're going to do this.

Nia: That's so interesting, because definitely when I read the book I was like Oh my
God. Did she really? [both laugh] Oh, OK. So, the book, I feel like, is in part about
white feminism, but it's also about cis feminism, in a way that's maybe not explicitly
named, but

Gabby: Mmhmm.

Nia: --you know, her book is called Cunt. Raging Flower is all about like pussy
power. I guess I was hoping you could address that a little bit, the sort of like I don't
know. The cis-sexism of this type of feminism?

Gabby: Yo. If we're going to do this, then I gotta be real. I feel that my evolution is
also kind of embarrassing and fraught, because I did not come up around transgender
folks. So I came up in old school dyke communities that were very much anti-trans.
Folks that had gone to Mich Fest, and very much are like Women are women are
women. You're born a woman, you're a woman. And this does not include Inga
Muscio, or Ariel Gore. This is other folks. And so, I never really thought about gender
in that way, as far as women are not women because vaginas and periods. I never
thought about that until later in my life. I'm 34, and I don't think I started really thinking
about that until I was writing Juliet Takes a Breath. I don't think that that narrative had
been part of my community, because I came up in mostly white, dyke, cis circles. Also
lesbian Latina circles that were very cis. And I say this because I think it's

When we call out folks for transphobia, if I were to call somebody out for transphobia,
we do this thing where we're like We're calling this out because we're better than.
White folks do it all the time. Look at those whites. They are whiting so hard over
there, and they are being so racist. Do you see? As I'm pointing this out, I'm pointing
because I am distancing myself. So I want to really, really make sure to honor the flaws
in my humanity, and my capabilities, and my understanding. Because it is a journey
where I was like OK, now I'm in my 30s, or in my late 20s, and folks are telling me that
womanhood is not about women with vaginas and periods. That body parts, and body
functions, are separate from gender, which is separate from sexuality. That's something
that I had to learn. So in the process of learning that, and writing Juliet Takes a Breath, I
really tried to put what I had learned into that, into the book, and do it justice.

I feel like I'm fucking this all up right now. This isn't the clean answer that you wanted.

Nia: I mean, if you want we can take it again. I can cut everything you just said.
Gabby: Maybe you can help me talk this through, because part of me is like, and so
because I was learning that while I was writing Raging Flower bits, I had to be like No,
Juliet's cousin Ava, somebody in the book has to recognize that that's what this book is
also perpetuating. And maybe Juliet can't be the one to call it out, at all. Because she's
not there, because I wasn't there. But the folks that are helping me navigate this, they're
there. This is their whole life.

And so that was, to me, the importance of Ava, the character. Because Ava represents
almost like the next level, when you're moving forward in your evolution in politics of
gender, and sexuality. To me, there's levels, right? And Ava's at the level where she's
like Nope. [snaps finger] Womanhood is this thing that comes from a lot of places, but
it does not just belong to folks that were born with vaginas. It does not just belong to
folks that menstruate. Cmon! Womanhood is this dynamic chaotic thing that expands for
everyone, right? And so [sighs] I wanted to make sure that one: that I didn't come
across as somebody who was like Haha, I know everything! But we also have to have
these conversations about what is gender? What is sexuality? What is womanhood?
What is a woman?

Nia: Yeah. So the protagonist, who's based on you, really idolizes Harlow, who's based
on Inga. She has these fantasies of being welcomed by white lesbian [Gabby laughs]
fairy goddesses

Gabby: Uh huh.

Nia: --when she gets to Portland. She really kind of has heart-eyes about white
feminism [laughs]

Gabby: Mmhmm.

Nia: --even though she also sees the cracks in it, and the problems with it. I guess my
question is, were you this drawn to Were you this heart-eyes about white feminism at a
point? And do you think you would have been if you had access to maybe texts like
Cunt, but that were by Black or brown women?

Gabby: Oh my God. 100% felt that my proximity to white queerness was the coolest
shit on the planet. That that is how I would understand myself. Totally in the mindset
that my weirdness, and my queerness, had always been rejected by people of color
growing up. I was white because I read. I was white because I was smart. I was
white because of this and that, and my clothes, and Nirvana, and my Docs. And you
know, that story that you hear all the time, like, I don't date women of color because
they're too difficult or whatever. I was in that mindset, you know? White people
accepted my weird. But what I couldn't see was the tokenization. What I didn't want to
acknowledge was the feti There's a lot of

Nia: Fetishization.
Gabby: Yeah, there's a lot of Ss and Hs in there. Of fet-ish-i-zation. [both laugh]
And so how, yeah, I thought I was somebody, you know? It's almost like Ill never
forget that Bernie Mac quote where he's like You know you're somebody when the
white people come see you. And so I was definitely a firm believer in that. And there's
a part of me that is very much like I must evolve from this place as well. The next
work that I write cannot have a central figure that is white. I want to move beyond that.
My art no longer needs to center white folks in that way.

Juliet was more like a Hey, I've had to navigate whiteness for a very long time. Here's
how I did it. And the next thing I write can't do that. It can't do that story again. The
next things that I'm working on, that I'm writing, I'm trying to remember that the people
that really stood out in that book, for folks that I connect with, were Ava, and Lil' Melvin,
and Titi Penny, and Blue Lips, and the mom. For everyone that isn't white, those are the
characters that come up and up, over and over again. So I'm like, OK. A lot of us must,
unfortunately navigate whiteness in this way, to almost find our queer brown selves.

Nia: Yeah, it's almost like you had to go through whiteness to access feminism, and to
access queerness. And I do think still happens for people in a really big way. But it's
also like Hopefully it won't be like that for kids that are coming out now, the way that
it might have been for us.

Gabby: Yeah, yeah. And this is going to age me quite a bit, but also, Juliet Takes a
Breath takes place in 2002, or something like that. [laughs] I'm so bad with dates. I
never remember shit. But it takes place before Instagram, and before Internet was really
a thing where you could be like Hmmm, let me search QTPOC. And now you find
tons of like-minded blogs, politically radical Instagrams, blah blah blah. But back then, it
was still very much like, Oh, there's The L Word and then there's this book called
Cunt.

Nia: Right. Because only white people got published, and only white people got TV
shows. [laughs]

Gabby: Yeah, so I want to push above and beyond. I need to constantly be a student of
my people. What do my people need? What are young people asking for, begging for,
and needing? What do people my age, what are we fighting for? What are we
navigating? What are the old folks wishing we would pay attention to? And how can we
be stewards of all of that, all of those experiences, and create meaningful art, you know?

Nia: I was going to say, this might be the last question. It probably won't be, but just
know that we're winding toward the end. [both laugh] I'm going to go back to talking
about Marvel. Is there anything they won't let you do? [laughs]

Gabby: I was not allowed to use President Trump's face instead of Hitler's face in issue
number one. I wanted it to be Trump. There was supposed to be a red tie. Their
reasoning, respectfully, was that at the time Apparently it's really, really taboo for
entities that aren't newspapers to publish or promote a violent act against a president-
elect, or the president of the United States. So that was a fucking duhhh [laughs] They
were like, No, that's a duh of 'Don't do that.' But we'll give you Hitler. [both laugh]
And I was like, You know what? I want America to

This is so corny, but, yo, I'm from here. I'm American. Anywhere I go, even tattooed,
brown, dyke, whatever, I am read as American in other countries. America Chavez, as a
comic, I wanted her image and her likeness to be connected to iconic, legendary,
historical shit. And if Captain America's first iteration in this world was an anti-fascist
American superhero, that was coming for Nazis, in an age where almost 40% of this
country was in support of Nazi Germany, OK? If that is where Captain America came
from, then America Chavez needs to be at that level. America Chavez needs to now be
the one punching Hitler. White folks ain't doing it for us right now. And post-
Charlottesville, that was the number one image being shared on my timeline. America
punching Hitler. And I was like Oh shit. I couldn't have predicted that. But now, she's
there forever, you know?

Nia: Yeah. So now that you're writing for the juggernaut that is Marvel [laughs], are
you making a living off your art, off your writing?

Gabby: Yes. I'm actually, for the first time in my life, making a living off of writing,
and speaking, solely. I'm the first person in my family to work professionally as a
creative person, as a writer. And it's really wild and beautiful. And like I say, my parents
provided me an incredible upbringing. Support, Catholic school in the suburbs, even
though we were living in the Bronx. I would take the train to better schools elsewhere. I
went to a liberal arts college off of scholarship. But post-college, my parents weren't like
Here's money. You know? Every dollar I've made is mine. But it was always a
struggle. I couldn't find a job. I was unemployed. This was right also during the time
that the stock market crashed, you know what I mean? Everything was recession. I
worked TV, film, and freelance, but that was 100 hours a week of work, for maybe a 600
dollar paycheck, if that. So it was really hard for awhile.

And then I got some gigs as a teaching artist, when I switched professions. The teaching
artists gig in the Bronx, nonprofit world. That was my first taste of stability, health
insurance, and making a living, while also maintaining a certain quality of life. And at
that time a quality of life was like Oh, I'm not working 100 hours a week. Oh, I can
have dinner. [laughs] Oh, I can take a shower before I have to take my crusty ass out
of bed, and go to be there for call [time].

And this really is clutch, too, because one of my homegirls, Marcella She's my sister,
we've been friends since we were thirteen. She is an accountant. And she works She's
Colombiana. She's in White Plains, NY. She works for a corporation that manages other
people's money. But, I'm her homegirl, and she was like Nena, you got to start saving.
So Marcy, with my little bit of money that I was making at the nonprofit, started me on a
track to saving money. And that was wild and beautiful. Us, being there, looking at what
I was spending, on everything from weed to alcohol, but then on going to the museums,
and researching, and traveling for writing. Just everything, right? And making a budget.
I'm the type, I need a buddy. I can write on my own, I can't make budgets on my own.
That's not my shit. So with her helping me, we got me on a savings plan.

And so when the nonprofit gig laid me off, all of a sudden I had a small savings that I
could I didn't want to use, but it was there. And then my next nonprofit job paid me
more. And me and Marcy revisited my savings plan. I'd made it off a year of
unemployment, I had some money. What can we do now? And so we did that again. I
was living below my means, and just banking this money from my nonprofit. Again,
supporting myself, paying my student loans, my bills, my rent, all that stuff. And so now
Marvel comes along, and I'm like Oh, shit!

And I don't want to be be like Oh my God, Marvel's paying me a bajillion dollars. It's
not like that, it's a very reasonable rate for any writer that's writing for Marvel. It's the
entry-level rate. Off of just Marvel alone, I can live, and that's great. But it's not like I
can live, and be totally reckless, and careless, and live that Cardi B life. I'm fucking eons
from that. But what helps, and the exciting thing is, like is said I quit my I quit, I left
my nonprofit job to be a writer full time because of my homegirl helping me save, where
I have this little bit of funds where if something happens, I'll be OK for a minute. And
that build-up over the course of two or three years was really the clutch in helping me to
make this move of being an independent, freelancer, creative person. Yeah, so now I do
Marvel, and I'm represented by the Lavin Agency. I do speaking gigs. So between
writing my comics and doing speaking gigs, I'm able to sustain myself. And continue my
savings plan.

Nia: That's awesome. [Gabby laughs]

Transcribed by Joyce Hatton