Scituate RI - Zoning Board Hearing On Hope Mill Project - 08 01 2017

1
1 TOWN OF SCITUATE
2 ZONING BOARD OF REVIEW
3 7:00 P.M.
4 TUESDAY, AUGUST 1, 2017
5 SCITUATE HIGH SCHOOL AUDITORIUM
94 TRIMTOWN ROAD
6 NORTH SCITUATE, RHODE ISLAND
7
8
9 RE: Case #1200, Paramount Development Group
Location of premises 1 Main Street (Hope)
10 Assessor's Plat 3-Lot 8; Plat 5-Lots 1, 114,
117; M (Manufacturing) VO (Village Overlay)
11 Under the Zoning Ordinance
12
13 ZONING BOARD MEMBERS IN ATTENDANCE:
14 Dennis Charland, Acting Chairman
Paul Durfee
15 Dean N. Costakos
Ed Rambone
16 Joseph D. D'Amico
Steve Gaddes
17
18 Peter Ruggiero, Town Solicitor
Calista McDermott, Secretary
19
20
21
22
23
24
C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

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1 (PROCEEDING COMMENCED 7:11 P.M.)

2 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Good evening, Ladies
3 and Gentlemen. My name is Dennis Charland and I am
4 the acting chairperson for the Scituate Zoning
5 Board.
6 Excuse me. Conversation will be taken
7 outside, please. If you're having a
8 conversation -- we have a lot to go. This is going
9 to be a heated night because this building is going
10 to be very heated.
11 So I'm going to ask right away, turn off your
12 cell phones or silence them, please. I'm going to
13 ask you, if you have a conversation, please take it
14 outside this way everybody will be able to hear.
15 We don't have very good microphones in this
16 building as everyone who has been to a town council
17 meeting knows. So I'm going to ask you to be
18 patient with use as we try to go through as much of
19 this agenda and hopefully all of it tonight as we
20 possible can.
21 This is August 1st, Zoning Hearing. And the
22 objective tonight is to be listening matters
23 related to the Hope Mill Project.
24 Trust me, this is a complicated project. Some

3
1 variances have already been giving at prior

2 hearings that were held in 2006; however, Article
3 I, Sections 6C(16) provides that special exception
4 variances not acted on within 1 year of being
5 awarded by this Zoning Board are negated. So it is
6 starting fresh.
7 Keep in mind that we deal with land use issues
8 only. We are not dealing with personalities. We
9 are got dealing with any other individual
10 personalities, you know, we like somebody, we don't
11 like somebody.
12 The decisions we make affect the land use well
13 into our future. No one alive today was ever
14 involved in the decisions that allowed this complex
15 to be built. This complex that we are talking
16 about basically is the focus point in that
17 community of Hope and this project will have a
18 dramatic impact on the whole future of Hope.
19 And we are charged with the responsibility of
20 trying to protect it for you, the citizens of
21 Scituate.
22 As I indicated, a couple of ground rules. I
23 request that anyone with cell phone please turn
24 them off or silence them. Our meetings are being

4
1 tape recorded normally and tonight we are being --

2 there's a stenographer who will be recording all of
3 the words that are said.
4 The format that I will be following in this
5 meeting, excuse me, when we're talking about the
6 records that are kept, should the Applicant not
7 agree with portions or any part of our decision,
8 they could then take us to Superior Court,
9 challenge our decision in Superior Court.
10 The reason for the stenographer is so that we
11 have a documented record of what is said and all
12 the decisions that are being made and the logic
13 that went into the decision.
14 During the meeting I'm going to ask each
15 presenter to come forward, use one of the
16 microphones and identify yourself. I will swear
17 them in at that point and then what we will do is I
18 will have first the presenters will be from the
19 Paramount Group. They in turn, after that, we will
20 have other individuals speaking who are, I'll say
21 experts as it relates to this particular case.
22 When we get down to, before the end, I will open it
23 up for the public to ask your questions and I'm
24 going to ask you to come forward, be sworn in and

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1 ask your questions of me particularly. I will

2 address it to Paramount or whoever the appropriate
3 person will be. We will answer your questions as
4 best as we possibly can. I don't know if we will
5 have all answers for everybody but we will do our
6 best.
7 I'd like to introduce the members that are on
8 this Board right now. I've already indicated that
9 I am the chairperson, acting chairperson of the
10 Zoning Board. My name is Dennis Charland. To my
11 extreme, my extreme left, to your right is Joe
12 D'Amico. And after him is Ed Rambone, Steve
13 Gaddes. And then to my immediate right is -- I
14 knew that was going to happen, Paul Durfee and next
15 to him is Dean Costakos. Next to Dean is the
16 town's attorney who's Peter Ruggiero. And Calista
17 McDermott, she's the Zoning Board's clerk.
18 If this, the actual votes being taken will
19 only be by five of the members of the Zoning Board.
20 If we are called in for future meetings, if we do
21 not continue, we do not finish all of the
22 information, we will be called upon at that point
23 to have a subsequent meeting. Any subsequent
24 meeting, it has to be heard five of the six of us

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1 on the Zoning Board at this time. If we don't have

2 at some point in the future, we then have to go and
3 reconvene and start from the beginning. And it's
4 not fair to you sitting through this heat as well
5 to the individuals representing Paramount to be
6 able to do that. So we will do our best to go
7 through as much of this as possible to get for a
8 fruition, to bring this to fruition.
9 I'm going to read the agenda into the minutes
10 so that we have the documentation of that. I will
11 then request a motion by the Board to waive our
12 normal procedure of reading every piece of
13 documentation into the minutes. I will -- when I
14 do that, I will -- when I am reading the individual
15 items that are identified, I will identify or
16 summarize for everybody what each piece means.
17 I'm expecting that the experts representing
18 Paramount and anyone else coming forward that is
19 putting information in will be summarizing their
20 respective information in the first place so that
21 way it is not putting all of us through unnecessary
22 pains. I have a three-ring binder here that is
23 full of information so bear with me. There will be
24 some times that I have to get caught up.

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1 The agenda for tonight's meeting: Hearing on

2 the Applications for Special Use Permits, Variances
3 and Appeals under the Zoning Ordinance.
4 Notice is hereby given that the Zoning Board
5 of Review will be in session at the Scituate High
6 School Auditorium, 94 Trimtown Road, North Scituate
7 on Tuesday, August 1, 2017 at 7:00 p.m. when all
8 person interested will be heard for or against the
9 granting of the following applications for Special
10 Use Permits, Variances and Appeals under the Zoning
11 Ordinance.
12 Case #1200, Paramount Development Group.
13 Location of premises is 1 Main Street, Hope.
14 Assessor's Plat 3-Lot 8; Plat 5-Lots 1, 114, 117;
15 M, Manufacturing, VO as in Village Overlay under
16 the Zoning Ordinance.
17 Request pursuant to Article 1 of the Town of
18 Scituate Zoning Ordinance for consideration of
19 requested dimensional variances and a special use
20 permit related to the Hope Mill Development
21 Project.
22 The Scituate Zoning Board of Review will
23 consider the following dimensional variances:
24 Article III, Section 3 (5): Dimensional

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1 variance to have less than the required lot size

2 and to exceed the allowed density.
3 B, Article III, Section 3 (5): Dimensional
4 variance to have less than the required lot width.
5 C, Article III, Section 1: Dimensional
6 variance to have less than the required front set
7 back.
8 D, Article III, Section 1: Dimensional
9 variance to exceed the maximum building height.
10 E, Article III, Section 3 (10)(a):
11 Dimensional variance to have less than the required
12 number of parking spaces.
13 F, Article III, Section 3 (10)(b):
14 Dimensional variance to have less than the required
15 parking setback.
16 G, Article IV, Section 7: Dimensional
17 variance to have a sewerage disposal system with
18 less than the required setback from a water body.
19 Additionally, the Scituate Zoning Board of
20 Review will consider the following special use
21 permit.
22 H, Article II, Section 2.3: The applicant is
23 requesting a Special Use Permit to have a 193-unit
24 multi-family residential development on a property

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1 consisting of approximately 32.22 acres.

2 Availability of information, the plans and
3 accompanying documents for this Proposal are
4 available for the public to review during normal
5 business hours Monday-Friday, 8:30 a.m. to 4 p.m.,
6 at the Scituate Town Planning, 195 Danielson Pike,
7 Town Hall, Scituate, Rhode Island.
8 All persons interested in the above are
9 requested to be present at the time and place to be
10 heard thereon. Facilities are accessible to
11 handicapped persons. Persons requiring special
12 accommodations must call the Town Clerk's Office at
13 least 48 hours in advance of the meeting.
14 Individuals requesting interpreter service for
15 the hearing impaired must call the Town Hall 72
16 hours in advance of said hearing.
17 Per order of the Zoning Board of Review,
18 Kenneth P. Borden, who is the actual Chairperson.
19 And just for your own information he is ill and
20 will not be here tonight.
21 The agenda for tonight's meeting, hearing on
22 the Applications for Special Use Permits, Variances
23 and Appeals under the Zoning Ordinance. Notice is
24 hereby given, excuse me, I already did that.

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1 All the agenda, the second agenda was -- one

2 of the agendas initially was produced on July 11th
3 and it was posted electronically on the website on
4 July 28, 2017. But the original was posted on July
5 11th.
6 Bear with me. One more thing to read and I'm
7 going to ask for a motion from the Board for the
8 other information. The Zoning Board of Review
9 Application case 1200. This application is for a
10 Special Use Permit and Dimensional Variances.
11 The undersigned hereby applies for a Zoning
12 Board of Review for the above-designated relief in
13 the application of the provisions and regulations
14 of the zoning ordinance affecting the following
15 dimensional described premises in the manner and on
16 the grounds hereafter set forth.
17 The application must form -- the application
18 form must be filled out completely and signed by
19 all property owners and their lawful
20 representatives. All petitions must be completed
21 in full or contain the required information before
22 they are placed on the agenda.
23 The applicant's name is Paramount Development
24 Group, 165 Hunt Road, Chelmsford, Massachusetts.

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1 The owners, we have an additional document

2 that explains who the owner are and the like.
3 Location of the premises is the corner of Main
4 Street and Mill Street in the Hope section of
5 Scituate, Rhode Island. Pole 3-1, Plats 2, 3, 5,
6 101, Lot 8, Lot1, Lot 114 and 17 and Lot 5 in
7 Coventry.
8 Dimensions are irregular approximately 32.22
9 acres. Building area of 1,403 -- 1 million, four
10 hundred and three thousand, five hundred and three
11 square feet.
12 Zoning in which the premises are located is M
13 as in general manufacturing within the Hope Village
14 Overlay District.
15 When was the property acquired is noted as
16 being in receivership.
17 The present use of the property is a vacant
18 mill.
19 Is the building on the premises at present,
20 yes.
21 Yes, the building square footage is
22 approximately 92,494 square feet.
23 The proposed use of the property is
24 residential apartments.

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1 The size of the proposed building is the

2 existing Mill building, is the same 92,494 square
3 feet.
4 Building, the second building will be 10,400
5 square feet, which is building number 14.
6 Building 15, is 10,400 square feet.
7 The proposed alterations, renovations of the
8 existing mill building and construction of two new
9 buildings for use for multi-family apartments.
10 If the dwelling or apartment house, number of
11 families which the building is to be arranged for
12 is 193 units.
13 Questions: Have you submitted plans for the
14 proposed building to the building official? The
15 answer is no.
16 Have you been refused a building permit. The
17 answer is no.
18 Provisions of the zoning ordinance under which
19 the application for relief is made. There is an
20 attached addendum to that that explains all of the
21 individual variances and I've already cited them
22 individually in the prior comments.
23 And the request for dimensional variance and a
24 request for setback requirements. Other variances

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1 and special use permit requests, please see the

2 attached Zoning submission letter that is attached
3 to this package that we have received.
4 State grounds for the variance, special use
5 permit or appeal at this time. It says again, "See
6 the attached submission letter."
7 Additional information provided with this
8 application, see attached Zoning submission letter.
9 And then reports from exempt witnesses, from
10 expert witnesses should be submitted with the
11 application.
12 And the application is then signed by Richard
13 DeRosas of Paramount Development and we have Peter
14 Furness who is the attorney representing the
15 receiver. And it is also signed by his attorney
16 representation, Allen, I can't quite honestly can't
17 read his signature.
18 But I can tell you that Peter Furness is with
19 the law firm of Boyajian, Harrington, Richardson &
20 Furness. They are the receivers for the property,
21 which is Assessor's Lot 5, lot 1, 114 and
22 Assessor's Lot 3, Plot 8. And the town of Scituate
23 Assessor's Lot 101, Lot 5. And the town of
24 Coventry, Assessor's Plot 5, Plat 5, Lot 117. The

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1 Lot in the town of Scituate is owned currently by

2 Paramount Apartments, LLC, at 60 State Street,
3 Suite 700, Boston, Massachusetts.
4 At this point I would ask for a motion from my
5 Board to, for me to identify the additional
6 supplemental information and then we will move on
7 with that, if the Board so approves.
8 MR. DURFEE: So moved.
9 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Moved by Paul Durfee.
10 MR. GADDES: I'll second that.
11 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Seconded by Steve
12 Gaddes.
13 All those in favor signify by saying aye.
14 (BOARD VOTES)
15 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Opposed?
16 (NO RESPONSE FROM BOARD)
17 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Motion carries. We
18 will continue on.
19 The objects or the additional information that
20 is provided is -- there's a supplemental Zoning
21 Board Review Application that has a wealth of
22 information summarizing the entire project. They
23 will be in turn be explaining that to be public.
24 As we go through. You will have plenty of

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1 knowledge. It includes a summary of qualifications

2 from Pimentel Consulting, who were the individuals
3 who prepared that supplemental application.
4 There is an abutters' list that is showing the
5 abutters that are within 300 feet from Coventry as
6 well as Scituate.
7 There's an additional abutters list from,
8 depending upon which lots you're talking about, for
9 both lots, again, showing the 300 feet of all
10 identified individuals who received notice.
11 DiPrete Engineering has provided -- on June
12 30, 2017 a letter from DiPrete Engineering
13 summarized the scope of relief sought.
14 Another document of January 27, 2017, DiPrete
15 Engineering sent a letter addressing concerns about
16 the flooding of the property.
17 Hope Village District Overlay submitted a
18 letter of decision on May 1st approving the
19 project.
20 Hope Village District Overlay approval letter
21 of building -- on May 9th as a museum, building 9
22 as a museum and variance to exceed the 2000 square
23 feet of new construction that is required under the
24 Village Overlay guidelines.

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1 Kent County Water Authority provided a

2 document indicating the design acceptance for
3 adequate water supply to the project.
4 Rhode Island DEM has provided a letter of
5 approval as significant alterations of wetlands.
6 There are two memos from the Rhode Island
7 Department of Transportation for approval -- I'm
8 sorry. DEM approval as insignificant alterations
9 of wetlands.
10 Number I, we are going to be lettering it as
11 I, there are two members from Rhode Island -- two
12 memos from the Rhode Department of Transportation
13 for approval of state highway right-of-way work.
14 We will identify the next a J. Rhode Island
15 DEM waste water system construction permits.
16 Item K, the Town of Scituate Zoning Board
17 decision letter of December 20, 2006.
18 Letter L, which is the U.S. Department of the
19 Interior National Park Service Application for
20 historic preservation and rehabilitation.
21 Item M, is a letter from the U.S. Department
22 of Interior National Park Service indicating that
23 the project meets the standards only if the
24 attached conditions are met for historical

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1 preservation.
2 Item N, a letter from Mark Carruolo Acting
3 Town Planner for the Town of Scituate supporting
4 basically all of the information or summarizing all
5 of the information that is in the package.
6 There is also a letter -- Item O, a letter
7 from the Fire Marshal John Chevalier from
8 Hope/Jackson Fire department indicating water flows
9 appear to be adequate for the project needs.
10 Next P, a letter from the town of Coventry
11 Office of Planning and Development indicating
12 limited involvement in Coventry. That no permit
13 process was required for their town.
14 Letter Q, any other documents that may be
15 provided in advance of the meeting. And to my
16 knowledge, we do not have any, correct?
17 MS. MCDERMOTT: That is correct.
18 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: At this time, I would
19 like to call the Paramount speaker to begin their
20 presentation.
21 MR. SHEKARCHI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
22 Good evening, members of the Scituate Planning
23 Board, excuse me, Zoning Board. I just came from a
24 Johnston Planning.

18
1 For the record --

2 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I'm going to interrupt
3 you for one second. Your name, please.
4 MR. SHEKARCHI: For the record, Attorney
5 K. Joseph Shekarchi representing the applicant.
6 With me tonight is my co-council Christian Caprizzo
7 from the law office of Shechtman Halperin Savage as
8 well.
9 (SWORN IN BY CHAIRMAN CHARLAND)
10 MR. SHEKARCHI: Thank you. Mr. Chairman,
11 Honorable Members of the Board, I'd like to, for a
12 housekeeping matter, with your permission give
13 these to your Solicitor. These are the notices
14 that were sent out to the list of abutters that you
15 referred to in your very detailed opening.
16 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Thank you.
17 MR. SHEKARCHI: I'd like to just identify
18 the development team that I have with me tonight in
19 addition to my co-council, I have the principal of
20 Paramount, Rich DeRosas. Also, I have from DiPrete
21 Engineering I have Nicole as well -- Nicole Reilly,
22 excuse me, and Kevin Morin, civil engineers. Bill
23 Chapman the environmental expert. I have Todd
24 Brayton a traffic expert. I have Tanya Carriere

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1 architect expert. I have Jacob Garner, the fire

2 code expert. And I will have before the evening is
3 over Mr. Pimentel who's coming from another meeting
4 in Lincoln as our land use expert, you referred to
5 his report.
6 So I'd like to just address the issue and kind
7 of give you a little preview of this development as
8 you stated in a very detailed opening. This is
9 hopefully the redevelopment of the mill. As you
10 can see this is a project that since my client has
11 been under contract to purchase that we have been
12 going through the process of approvals.
13 As you know it's a multi-jurisdictional
14 approval. There are many state agencies, local
15 agencies that we have to get approval before we can
16 ever get to this point. And as you stated earlier
17 in your opening, a previous applicant went before
18 this Zoning Board and received some of these
19 approvals, which is different than what we are
20 proposing today.
21 So I will have the team available to answer
22 any questions. At some point, I will refer to
23 Nicole. She will take us through a little more of
24 a little bit more of a detailed overview.

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1 But I just want to do a broad overview. So

2 three issues I'd like to touch upon that are all
3 part of our application and one is the parking that
4 you mentioned before, that we are seeking a relief
5 from the parking.
6 I'd like to point out that we think that the
7 parking we are proposing is adequate to meet the
8 needs of the proposed 193 development but under
9 Mill building number 3, we have over an additional
10 100 parking spaces available. And we will make
11 them available if this project becomes approved and
12 need it. Or, in the alternative, if this Board
13 felt comfortable in granting an approval you can
14 make a condition upon so many parking spots, 40,
15 60, 90, up to over 100 spaces additional inside,
16 under building number 3. So we have that on-site
17 ability, if that was a request of the Board.
18 And also the on-site septic system. I will
19 let Nicole go through the details. But I guess the
20 previous proposal was talking about sewer line.
21 For a whole host of reasons and not even the cost
22 but the whole host of reasons, it is not really
23 feasible to do that. It's very difficult with the
24 permitting to go through several different towns to

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1 get there.
2 This is a system that will service the needs
3 of this community, meaning the mill community that
4 we are proposing. And this is innovative. It's
5 technically very secure and it's approved by DEM.
6 So it's not only feasible but it is something that
7 can bring, hopefully bring this project to
8 conclusion.
9 The last item I would like to address is the,
10 you know, the fire safety code. The water
11 pressure, as you know, we have Kent County water
12 pressure that is adequate to meet the needs. But
13 these building will all be sprinklered. Under
14 today's fire codes, since we had the tragedy of the
15 Station Fire several years ago, there's a very
16 stringent fire code and we will meet that code.
17 And we will have a fire expert that will tell you
18 that.
19 So those are just the broad issues that I
20 wanted to touch upon. This is a very unique
21 proposal because this is a mill that's been vacant
22 for over 10 years. This is a mill that we think
23 our project -- I'm not saying it's better than the
24 other project. We think it's feasible. We think

22
1 this can happen. This will provide the need for

2 housing in the town.
3 This will help the town, Mr. Pimentel will
4 testify, get closer and meet its goal under the
5 affordable housing program. But we think it's a
6 good reuse of the property. And we think it's a --
7 it's basically a way to save the mill, preserve the
8 mill and grow in the future of this beautiful
9 community of Hope, this part of Scituate.
10 I'd like to introduce Nicole Reilly and then I
11 will let her go through a brief little overview of
12 the details. But also, make available to you, Mr.
13 Chairman, the Board and the public, any of the
14 experts if you have any questions. We have a
15 PowerPoint presentation. It's not a presentation
16 per se but if we get a question on a certain topic,
17 we can put that up there so the Board can see and
18 the public can see.
19 If we're talking about architectural stuff, we
20 can put that up. If we're talking about
21 landscaping stuff, we can put that slide up so we
22 can address those issues.
23 Thank you and I'll introduce Nicole from
24 DiPrete Engineering.

23
1 MS. REILLY: Good evening.

2 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Your name, please.
3 MS. REILLY: Nicole Reilly, R-E-I-L-L-Y.
5 MS. REILLY: If it's okay for the record,
6 I do have a copy of my resume. So I am a Rhode
7 registered professional engineer in civil
8 engineering.
9 MR. RUGGIERO: Do you want to mark these?
10 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Yes, please.
11 MR. RUGGIERO: Do you want to use letters;
12 is that all right? You gave letters to the others?
13 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: We gave letters to the
14 others.
15 MR. RUGGIERO: So we should use numbers.
16 MR. SHEKARCHI: At the appropriate time,
17 I'd like to move Ms. Reilly as an expert in
18 engineering.
19 MR. RUGGIERO: So this will be one,
20 Applicant's 1.
21 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Applicant's 1.
22 MR. SHEKARCHI: If you don't mind, Mr.
23 Chairman, I'd like the notices to be Applicant's 1.
24 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: All right.

24
1 MR. SHEKARCHI: The green cards and then

2 Nicole Reilly's resume as Applicant's proposed
3 Exhibit 2. Thank you.
4 (APPLICANT'S EXHIBIT 1 AND 2 MARKED CHAIRMAN
5 CHARLAND)
6 MS. REILLY: So for the record, I am a
7 registered professional engineer in this state,
8 license number 8573. And I'm employed at DiPrete
9 Engineering, 2 Stafford Court, Cranston.
10 So the next item I'd like to exhibit for
11 exhibit is just a copy of -- it's a summary of all
12 the permits we just spoke about. One of the copies
13 I actually have attached all of the permits
14 received for the record, for the Board if that's
15 okay.
16 So one of the copies has all of the permits
17 attached to it and the other copies are just a list
18 of the permits with no attachments.
19 (APPLICANT'S EXHIBIT 3 MARKED BY CHAIRMAN CHARLAND)
20 MS. REILLY: So if it's okay with the
21 Board as a civil engineer, I would like to walk
22 through the site design. You did an excellent job
23 summarizing the permits. I was going to talk about
24 that first but I believe the record I just

25
1 submitted summarizes that unless you would like to

2 go though them in more detail?
3 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: No. I don't think so.
4 MS. REILLY: Okay. So this actually is a
5 the site plan generated by the project landscape
6 architect. (INDICATING) We though it would be the
7 most suitable for presentation with the large room.
8 So essentially just to familiarize everyone,
9 obviously this is the Hope Mill Complex that exists
10 today. The access is right off of Main Street,
11 right here. (INDICATING) So to familiarize
12 everyone, this is Hope Furnace Road and the
13 property is situated with the, you know, the river
14 adjacent.
15 So DiPrete Engineering was hired a few years
16 ago to help with the development of the site, along
17 with the team of experts sitting adjacent to me
18 here. We've had several months of permitted with
19 the state and town.
20 From a civil engineering perspective, the two
21 most important permits we received to date is the
22 on-site waste water treatment system.
23 The on-site waste water treatment system also
24 referred to as a septic is located in this area

26
1 here. (INDICATING) I do have Kevin Morin also

2 from my office, a registered engineer, who can
3 speak in detail on the septic system. But for the
4 purposes of the overview, this is the location of
5 the septic system. And we do have that permit,
6 which was summarized a moment ago.
7 The second most important received to date
8 from a civil engineering prospective is the DEM,
9 Rhode Island Department of Environmental Management
10 Insignificant Alteration Permit. And that allows
11 the presence of the development adjacent to the
12 wetlands that exist on the property.
13 A majority of the wetlands are actually the
14 river complex itself. So we worked closely with
15 DEM on trying to locate parking, any building
16 additions, any site development in an area
17 appropriate for redevelopment on this site.
18 We all know that the site exists today as a
19 developed property. It's not a green space
20 currently. But we did work closely with DEM to try
21 to tighten up the development areas to leave space
22 adjacent to the river that resides adjacent to the
23 property. So those are the two important civil
24 engineering permits received to date.

27
1 Just walking through the site, access off of

2 the main road, travel down, across the -- adjacent
3 from the river down into the facility here.
4 (INDICATING) We do have the development,
5 re-development of the existing building. Hopefully
6 everyone can see this.
7 And we do have two proposed out buildings here
8 as well. (INDICATING) The project architect is
9 here as well to answer questions.
10 Parking resides actually under mill building
11 3, which Attorney Shekarchi had just indicated. We
12 do have parking underneath the two proposed
13 buildings here as well. (INDICATING) In addition to
14 surface parking in the area that's gray in this
15 diagram right here. (INDICATING)
16 One of the main things that we looked at is
17 drainage. We wanted to improve that drainage that
18 exists out there today from a civil engineering
19 perspective. So we actually have permitted as part
20 of our DEM application, porous pavement.
21 Porous pavement basically allows rainwater to
22 enter into any proposed asphalt, treat it through a
23 choker course with water quality treatment and it
24 basically infiltrates out into the adjacent river.

28
1 Obviously none of that exists today because

2 there is not drainage on the site today. It
3 basically discharges from the property into the
4 river directly. So we are proposing 100 percent
5 water quality treatment, improvement from what
6 exists today. And I can get into more detail with
7 that should the team like us to here.
8 So from a high level we talked a little bit
9 about parking. We talked about the septic. We
10 talked about the civil engineering permits received
11 to date. I don't want to get into a lot of detail
12 unless the Board would like me to because I know
13 there's probably a lot of questions here tonight.
14 If there's a specific topic you'd like me to talk
15 about now, I'd be happy to. But otherwise I'd sit
16 tight.
17 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Reference has been
18 made to the -- in terms of parking, other parking
19 options. The application initially included 227
20 spaces. Where -- would the addition of building 3
21 -- are you looking at the option -- are you
22 proposing to be able to increase that?
23 MS. REILLY: Yes. So to clarify that, I
24 know it was a little bit confusing how it was

29
1 summarized. We do have 227 parking spaces on the

2 documents in front of the Zoning Board this
3 evening. And in working with the team,
4 specifically the project architect, we were able to
5 get an additional 47 spaces under mill 3. So that
6 will bring the total up to 273 spaces total for the
7 project.
8 MR. GADDES: Can you break that down by
9 phase? It's a phase project. So the parking that
10 will be added underneath. This is a gradual
11 addition of parking; is that correct?
12 MS. REILLY: So I can talk about the
13 surface parking first and then I can potentially
14 have -- I don't know if it would be the Applicant
15 or the project attorney might be able to answer the
16 phasing question.
17 But from the surface parking perspective, just
18 with any site development, we have to get in the
19 utilities, prepare the site, get the limited
20 disturbance established, get the grating and the
21 drainage in. So any of the area that's showing in
22 this gray here (INDICATING) what I'm referring to
23 is the surface parking, will be completed first and
24 in full.

30
1 As far as the phasing of building parking, I'm

2 not quite sure who to kick that question to. I
3 don't know if it would be Rich or Tanya.
4 MR. COSTAKOS: Is it 100 or 47? You
5 mentioned 96.
6 MS. REILLY: It's a total of 95 underneath
7 mill three. So I believe that was the reference to
8 the 100. It's 95 total. So what's in front of
9 you, I believe, and Tanya correct me if I'm wrong,
10 is 46 and are adding another 37; is that the
11 number.
12 MS. CARRIERE: Correct.
13 (INAUDIBLE)
14 THE COURT REPORTER: I cannot hear you.
15 MR. RUGGIERO: I mentioned to the Chair
16 that he should have anybody who responds sworn in
17 and identify themselves for the steno, for the
18 record.
19 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Okay.
20 MS. REILLY: So I can just summarize the
21 project architect who has studied parking under
22 mill 3 concurred with the numbers I just gave you.
23 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Okay. So the final
24 number of parking spaces as it looks right now is

31
1 that the 273?

2 MS. REILLY: That is correct.
3 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Okay. That would
4 represent 1.41 spaces per unit?
5 MS. REILLY: That is correct. Would you
6 like us to address the phase parking?
7 MR. CASTAKOS: I'm wondering if that ratio
8 changes by phase. So if you're in the first phase
9 -- because you mentioned that the building 3 is not
10 in the first phase, correct? That's in the second
11 phase?
12 MR. DEROSAS: That's right.
13 MR. CASTAKOS: So those additional 100
14 parking spaces would not occur until phase two is
15 --
16 MR. DEROSAS: Right.
17 MR. CASTAKOS: -- in place. So prior to
18 phase 2 coming on-line, what is the parking? Is
19 that parking ratio different?
20 MR. RUGGIERO: Mr. Chairman?
21 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Yes.
22 MR. RUGGIERO: Can I ask the witness to be
23 sworn.
24 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Yes.

32
1 MR. RUGGIERO: And identify himself for

2 the record.
3 MR. DEROSAS: Rich DeRosas, Paramount
4 Development Group. Yeah, the ratio will change as
5 project --
7 MR. DEROSAS: Yes, and that's a good
8 point. The ratios will change. I think if we had
9 a problem, where the two new buildings are going,
10 we have space there. If we had to, we can make
11 some additional parking there, if there was going
12 to be a problem with the parking.
13 MR. GADDES: So again within phase 1, when
14 phase 1 is in place, what is -- what are the number
15 of parking spaces available after phase 1?
16 MR. DEROSAS: I would say it is it's 110
17 spaces.
18 MR. GADDES: So the ratio will be higher;
19 is that correct?
20 MR. DEROSAS: I would say it is about the
21 same.
22 MR. GADDES: About the same, okay.
23 MR. DEROSAS: Yeah.
24 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: How many units would

33
1 be in phase 1?
2 MR. DEROSAS: Approximately 80.
3 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Anybody else? Any
4 other questions from the Board?
5 Nicole, were you done?
6 MS. REILLY: Yes.
7 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Okay. Next?
8 MR. SHEKARCHI: The only other person I
9 really want to put on to testify with a
10 presentation would be Ed Pimentel. He is en route.
11 He should be here momentarily. But at this point,
12 with your permission Mr. Chairman, we can open it
13 up for questions from the Board and I can provide
14 any member of the team from landscaping or fire
15 protection or any other questions that the Board
16 may have or we can address any issue that the
17 public may have.
18 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I'd like to hear your
19 fire protection person because the -- that's one of
20 the variances that you're asking for is in
21 reference to the height elevation and the town does
22 have a zoning ordinance relationship to it.
23 MR. SHEKARCHI: Sure. I'll ask for Jacob,
24 please. Thank you. In addition, after he submits

34
1 his credentials, I'd asked that he be introduced as

2 an expert as well, please, thank you.
3 MR. GARNER: Hi. My name is Jacob Garner.
4 I'm with Allied Consulting Engineering Services.
5 I'm --
6 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Jacob, how do you
7 spell your last name?
8 MR. GARNER: G-A-R-N-E-R. I'm NICET
9 certified fire protection system designer. I'm a
10 Rhode Island licensed master plumber. And a
11 certified plumbing designer is ASPE.
13 MR. GARNER: So do you have specific
14 questions or do you want me to describe the systems
15 to you?
16 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: If you can describe
17 basically how the building is protected.
18 MR. GARNER: Sure.
19 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: What it varies in
20 terms of the fire protection it has now versus what
21 in terms of housing? How the fire plan would be in
22 the event of fire protection in terms of the units,
23 individual units? A general review, if you would,
24 of the fire protection systems.

35
1 MR. GARNER: Certainly. Phase 1 and phase

2 2 of the project of the main mill building is going
3 to be provided throughout with a NFPA13 compliance
4 system. That basically means that sprinkler heads
5 will be provided in every single room, every single
6 interstitial concealed combustible space, any
7 utility rooms throughout the entire structure.
8 The calculation area for a NFPA13 system is
9 more stringent than a typical residential system.
10 You're required to calculate a larger area, larger
11 number of heads, external fire flows, things like
12 that. So it's a little bit beyond what you
13 typically see with a standard residential type
14 sprinkler system.
15 The buildings in the front are not provided
16 with standpipes as of right now because the height
17 doesn't require it. The proposed building in the
18 back will be provided with NFPA14 complaint
19 standpipe systems. Basically what that means is
20 that each egress stair will be equipped with 4"
21 riser so that the fire department can connect to
22 the riser when they're addressing a fire within the
23 building, stretch their hose from that riser into
24 the space and have a protected enclosure to access

36
1 the building from.

2 In addition to that, both of those buildings
3 are going to have NFPA13 compliant sprinkler
4 systems throughout their entirety. The garages
5 will be covered. That's pretty much it for
6 interior sprinkler systems.
7 Right now there are a few hydrants on-site. I
8 think Nicole will be able to tell you exactly where
9 those are.
10 We have the service originating on Main
11 Street. There's two services on Main Street.
12 There's a low pressure main and a high pressure
13 main that Kent County Water Authority owns.
14 The way that we set up the system is that we
15 have a building near Main Street that this main
16 service enters into. We have a fire department
17 connection on that building which allows the fire
18 department to interconnect the high pressure system
19 to the low pressure system that's currently been
20 serving the site.
21 So what that means is that by stretching the
22 hose from one hydrant to one across the street, the
23 fire department will be able to energize the system
24 with almost twice as much pressure and flow as what

37
1 they would normally get out of the low pressure

2 system. So there's a -- you know, there's quite a
3 bit of capacity for them to address a fire.
4 We've done calculations in accordance with
5 NFPA1, the Rhode Island Fire Codes to make sure we
6 can accommodate the site flow for any potential,
7 you know, firefighting on-site, multiple buildings,
8 that kind of thing.
9 There's one building that's located -- that's
10 owned by somebody else, that's kind of at the lower
11 right-hand corner of the property. And, as of
12 right now, our hydrants are capable of providing
13 enough flow to address a fire in that building
14 also.
15 I can't speak to any sprinkler systems or
16 anything in that building because I don't know
17 what's inside of it but I know that our site is
18 capable of providing enough flow for all of the
19 buildings, all of the structures, all of the
20 phasing on our site. So that's pretty much the
21 gist of the...
22 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: In terms of, you may
23 or not be able to address this, but in terms of
24 fire doors and fire compartmentalizing any of the

38
1 floors, is that your ball of wax, if you will?

2 MR. GARNER: That would be an
3 architectural question.
5 MR. GARNER: I wouldn't be able to make
6 comments on that.
7 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Okay. We will ask the
8 architect when we get to that point.
9 MR. GARNER: Okay.
10 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Any other members have
11 questions?
12 MR. GADDES: With regard to the -- in
13 regard to the variance as far as the building
14 height and in terms of the available equipment --
15 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Can you speak into the
16 mike. We can't hear you back here.
17 MR. GADDES: Sorry. With regard to the
18 variance for building height, is there adequate
19 equipment, fire fighting equipment to address that
20 currently available in this area?
21 MR. GARNER: As far as fire apparatus?
22 MR. GADDESS: Yes.
23 MR. GARNER: That would be a question for
24 the fire chief. I couldn't say what you guys have

39
1 for fire fighting equipment.

2 I mean as far as the infrastructure, there's
3 adequate infrastructure here for the fire
4 department to address a fire in any one of those
5 buildings.
6 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I have asked Chief JR
7 Robinson to come forward in a couple of minutes.
8 JR, hold on for one minute and I'll -- we have
9 Hope/Jackson fire chief available here for -- for
10 tonight.
11 Any further questions? Ed, did you have one?
12 Anybody else? Thank you.
13 MR. GARNER: Thank you, sir.
14 MR. SHEKARCHI: Attorney Shekarchi. We
15 have the architect to address...
16 MS. CARRIERE: Hi. Tanya Carriere from
17 Khalsa Design, project architect.
18 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: What did you say your
19 first name was, I'm sorry?
20 MS. CARRIERE: Tanya.
21 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Tanya.
23 THE COURT REPORTER: Tanya, can you spell
24 your last name, please.

40
1 MS. CARRIERE: C-A-R-R-I-E-R-E.

2 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Can you address, in
3 terms of one of the concerns is our town has an
4 ordinance right now providing buildings over 30
5 feet in this type of structure. The -- give us
6 kind of a warm fuzzy feeling -- the reason the
7 standard was established was because how do we get
8 up those, you know, to the multiple floors to
9 protect life safety of individuals who -- where
10 there might be a kitchen fire or something else
11 that we have to get people out.
12 Nobody wants to see another Station Nightclub
13 Fire in Scituate. And how is the construction
14 design to your best knowledge to avoid that kind of
15 potential disaster?
16 MS. CARRIERE: So each floor and ceiling
17 assembly will be fire rated. Between each floor, 1
18 hour or 2 hours as per code required for each
19 building.
20 Regarding the height of the building, I think
21 Jacob answered that: With the location of the
22 standpipes in the taller buildings, which allows
23 them to connect their hose to -- from the -- the
24 stairs will also we fire rated. So it provides a

41
1 safety for the fire fighters in a spot where they

2 can connect to and have a little bit more time.
3 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I've seen the rough
4 plans. In terms of escape routes for the -- could
5 you address, specifically for the public's concern,
6 the escape routes that may be present for the
7 people. If there was a fire someplace, how are
8 people getting out of the building?
9 MS. CARRIERE: So there will be exit signs
10 on each floor. And there will be also be a map, a
11 floor plan on each floor showing the quickest
12 escape route, which is required by code.
13 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Okay. So basically, I
14 think what you're saying is: In someone's
15 apartment, is that in effect kind of a fire blocked
16 area or enclosed area?
17 MS. CARRIERE: Yes. Each apartment, the
18 demising walls between apartments will be fire
19 rated as well as the floor and ceiling assembly.
20 So there will be some fire protection between each
21 unit if there were a fire in one unit there will be
22 more time available.
23 MR. GARNER: Each unit will be fully
24 sprinklered also.

42
1 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: So in affect, our --

2 the controls, as I am hearing you speaking, is that
3 fire in there is going to be protected in terms of
4 the sprinkler system but if it should be so
5 aggressive that we have -- if I'm following you
6 correctly, 1-hour rated walls for the individual
7 apartments?
9 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: And there's all the,
10 according to code, will be further protection
11 outside of those?
13 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Okay. Thank you. Any
14 other questions from the Board? Thank you.
15 MR. SHEKARCHI: I would just ask that she
16 be -- she's testified before many boards and
17 commissions as an expert in the architectural field
18 and I'd like to offer her as such before you as
19 well.
21 MR. SHEKARCHI: Thank you. I also have,
22 if the Board wants, I have Mr. Pimentel available
23 and I will do a very brief question and answer with
24 him. And I know that the Board has his report. If

43
1 it is appropriate right now, Mr. Chairman?

2 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Sure.
3 MR. SHEKARCHI: Thank you. At this time I
4 call Mr. Ed Pimentel, land use expert who I believe
5 has testified many times for many boards and
6 commissions throughout Rhode Island as a land use
7 expert. And Mr. Pimentel has a report which is
8 part of the application.
9 Just some brief questions. Can you just
10 identify yourself for the record?
11 MR. PIMENTEL: Sure. The name is Edward
12 Pimentel. That's P-I-M-E-N-T-E-L.
13 MR. SHEKARCHI: Thank you, Mr. Pimentel.
15 MR. SHEKARCHI: Mr. Pimentel, at my
16 request, did you prepare a -- review the record and
17 the application and prepare a report?
18 MR. PIMENTEL: I did.
19 MR. SHEKARCHI: And I'm going to ask you
20 briefly, in a minute to summarize your finding in
21 your report but I just want to get the two points.
22 In your professional opinion as a land use expert,
23 is the request we are seeking tonight consistent
24 with the town of Scituate's Comprehensive Use Plan?

44
1 MR. PIMENTEL: It is and including the

2 affordable housing component of it.
3 MR. SHEKARCHI: Thank you. And with that,
4 I would like you to just briefly, I know your
5 report is detailed, but briefly summarize your
6 methodology and your findings. Thank you.
7 MR. PIMENTEL: Sure. So the project needs
8 both special use and dimensional relief. So I paid
9 careful attention to what the comprehensive plan,
10 goals and objectives were for re-use of the Hope
11 Mill in light of both the goals and objectives of
12 your land use and housing elements and of course
13 the affordable housing components as each component
14 of this proposed development. And that's where I
15 concentrated most of my energy in this report.
16 The town of Scituate is a unique community in
17 regards to all 39 cities and towns because of the
18 presence of the Scituate Reservoir. As such, much
19 of the land's resources are protected in some
20 manner and therefore the provision of affordable
21 housing is difficult and rightfully so and I've
22 been involved in a few others in the town.
23 And as much, that's why we actually exceeded
24 the minimum 25 percent. We're trying to really

45
1 provide something that the town really requires in

2 this development or redevelopment.
3 And then the second thing I concentrated on
4 was the historic component of it. And that is the
5 preservation of the Hope Mill itself and the Hope
6 Mill site.
7 So I believe this particular project helps to
8 meet both those very important goals from a
9 comprehensive plan perspective.
10 I also went into the specific standards for
11 granting of the special use and dimensional. I can
12 go over them but they are in the report.
13 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: For public concerns,
14 in terms of the state housing and the economic
15 aspect, I think people may be concerned with, what
16 we are bringing into town.
17 Can you kind of give us an idea of what the
18 special needs aspects are or would be?
19 MR. PIMENTEL: Well, the reality, once
20 again, because I have been involved in few of these
21 types of developments in town, the town of Scituate
22 is going to have great difficulty of ever achieving
23 the 10 percent. I mean, I know that there's this
24 goal out there for all 39 cities and towns to

46
1 achieve 10 percent affordability. Some of the more

2 rural, some of the more urbanized environments have
3 already accomplished this because of just the way
4 they were initially developed, they're really dense
5 neighborhoods. For example, the community I work
6 in, the city of East Providence, we've always met
7 the 10 percent. We're a very dense community.
8 The more rural communities have found it very
9 difficult because one of the premiere goals of the
10 rural environment is to protect that rural
11 character. And, on top of that layer, you're
12 trying to preserve and protect the Scituate
13 Reservoir and all of the whole watershed area.
14 So giving those limited land resources, where
15 would you provide affordable housing or realize the
16 affordable housing? It would be in projects such
17 as this.
18 And this particular project whereas the
19 minimum requirement under a comp. permit and I
20 understand we are not pursuing this pursuant to a
21 comp. permit, but at minimum it would be 25
22 percent. We are approaching the ability of 40
23 percent and so forth.
24 So I think that right there is the worthy goal

47
1 from an economic perspective in achieving that

2 because it is something that is mandated to all 39
3 cities and towns and this project will help to
4 achieve a great component in meeting that statutory
5 requirement.
6 And once again, I don't have to speak the
7 obvious, right? We all know what the condition of
8 the Hope Mill is. We all -- we know what the
9 condition of the Hope Mill has been for years. I
10 was involved with this project many years ago. The
11 reality is that it continues to deteriorate. At
12 some point there just won't be -- it won't be able
13 to be preserved. And this could be the catalyst.
14 This could be the project that not only saves the
15 historic Hope Mill but also achieves the affordable
16 housing and meets that statutory requirement.
17 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Can you take a moment
18 to explain the affordable housing and what that
19 entails?
20 MR. PIMENTEL: Yeah, yeah. There's a
21 misnomer out there that affordable housing is -- I
22 want to be careful here. Nothing against Sections
23 8, nothing against public housing, nothing against
24 those things but people equate those on the same

48
1 level.
2 Affordable housing is median income and there
3 are different ratios, 50 percent, 80 percent, all
4 the way up to 120 percent median income. When I
5 talk about median income or median affordable
6 housing -- in some communities, even the average
7 person couldn't afford the affordable housing
8 component depending on -- I just did an affording
9 house project in Jamestown and the ratio there for
10 the units that are deemed affordable versus market
11 rate are still pretty extravagant. But the reality
12 is, it brings it more in line with people who are
13 trying to remain in town, people who have
14 established roots in a particular municipality,
15 want to keep their kids in town, alternatively
16 people who work in town, police, fire, teachers.
17 In the town of Jamestown, the one I just did,
18 most of their emergency and rescue personnel have
19 to commute from off island to the island because
20 they cannot afford to live there. It's those types
21 of things.
22 This isn't Sections 8. This isn't public
23 housing. Affordable housing is really there to
24 meet the needs of the average citizen of the

49
1 municipality, which in this case the town of

2 Scituate.
3 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Your program delves,
4 in terms of a little bit anyway, in the impact on
5 the schools.
6 MR. PIMENTEL: I didn't do that analysis.
7 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: You have a projection
8 of how many students that would be --
9 MR. PIMENTEL: Yeah, I didn't -- well,
10 yeah, I can speak for a land use perspective that
11 it's going to be all one and two bedroom units,
12 which -- I'm speaking in very broad base terms of
13 the affordable housing developments that have been
14 in, generally, you're looking at sometimes 1/10 or
15 1/2 of a child for every 10 units. And you're
16 talking two bedrooms. You're not even talking one
17 bedrooms.
18 The ones I've been involved in was a low
19 production of children into the school system
20 because that was a concern from the economic
21 dwelling perspective. I want to be frank, that's
22 in a broad base of projects that I have worked on.
23 I didn't do the analysis here but in general
24 those are the numbers that I usually realize. For

50
1 every 10 units, you're looking at 1/10 of a child.

2 On the two bedrooms, not the one bedrooms.
3 MR. CASTAKOS: How do you apply for
4 affordable housing? What's the process?
5 MR. PIMENTEL: Sure. So if the program is
6 approved, there's a monitoring agent that makes
7 sure that makes sure that the people who apply for
8 the affordable housing units meet the threshold of
9 whatever the income ranking is for the units that
10 are approved, whether it be 50 percent, 80 percent.
11 So you go through an eligibility process with Rhode
12 Island Housing?
13 MR. COSTAKOS: With the state of Rhode
14 Island?
15 MR. PIMENTEL: With Rhode Island Housing.
16 MR. COSTAKOS: So you go to Rhode Island
17 Housing?
18 MR. PIMENTEL: Correct. And then they can
19 give you a list of the monitoring agents. You can
20 probably speak with the developer more on that.
21 But then there would be a monitoring agent that
22 would make sure that the people who apply for and
23 obtain the affordable housing meet the criteria.
24 I mean, I don't want to speak out of turn

51
1 about the specifics. I'm not involved in that

2 process.
3 MR. GADDES: There was reference to
4 workforce housing versus affordable housing can you
5 talk, speak to those differences?
6 MR. PIMENTEL: Well, from a land use
7 perspective, my -- personally, most of the
8 affordable housing projects I worked on actually
9 translated into workforce housing. The way I
10 understand it and how I've interpreted it in my
11 reports, is that the workforce housing once again
12 is to meet the workforce of the municipalities so
13 that they have the ability to actually reside and
14 operate in the town that they work within.
15 It was a term that we used quite repeatedly.
16 Once again, referencing the Jamestown project, we
17 were trying to meet the needs of the workforce, the
18 people who actually worked for the town, offered a
19 service to the town but couldn't afford to reside
20 in the town. We were trying to accommodate that
21 workforce, that group.
22 MR. GADDES: Is the difference that the
23 affordable housing is a reported number versus the
24 workforce housing is just a description?

52
1 MR. COSTAKOS: Workforce is not a formal

2 designation. You don't apply for workforce
3 housing?
4 MR. PIMENTEL: Right. I mean, workforce
5 is a more generic term that we -- that I use in a
6 land use perspective.
7 When we talk affordable housing, we're really
8 talking about the statutory, regulatory
9 requirements that have to be met.
10 MR. COSTAKOS: And there's nothing under
11 the law that defines --
12 MR. PIMENTEL: Right. I mean, for
13 example, for example we can try to make
14 accommodations for the people, for residence of the
15 town and so forth. That isn't always -- the
16 ability to do so. But typically it works in that
17 favor because all -- once again, all 39 cities and
18 towns have the same regulatory objective, to
19 achieve the 10 percent.
20 So the likelihood for somebody who's residing
21 in the town of Narragansett that needs affordable
22 housing to commute up to the town of Scituate would
23 be very highly unlikely.
24 That's why we are trying to accommodate within

53
1 all the 39 cities and towns because the primary

2 objective is to accommodate the citizenry of that
3 municipality, the workforce, the people that offer
4 services in that municipality.
5 MR. GADDES: So would be it be fair to say
6 that any reference in these documents with regard
7 to workforce is actually -- workforce housing is
8 actually referring to affordable housing?
9 MR. PIMENTEL: I'm going to -- I would
10 refer to somebody who prepared that. I can only
11 tell you how I interpret workforce from my land use
12 perspective. I don't want to put words in the
13 mouths of other people who prepared stuff. That
14 would be inappropriate so -- but that's how I use
15 the term workforce. It was a term I used
16 repeatedly. Once again, referencing the Jamestown
17 development that I just did.
18 MR. COSTAKOS: Is affordable housing
19 subsidized?
20 MR. PIMENTEL: I'm not aware of any
21 subsidies. I'm not aware of any subsidized
22 involved.
23 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Attorney Shekarchi,
24 has -- can you -- do you have anyone that can

54
1 address the impact on the schools at this point in

2 terms of any projections?
3 MR. SHEKARCHI: Well, as Mr. Pimentel
4 said, those are projected. This is a mill complex
5 and the way you project accurately and represent is
6 that you look at other mill complexes and you look
7 at the formula. And typically, one bedroom units
8 do not put up any kids -- very, very few kids in
9 the school system. Two bedrooms, also in a mill
10 complex -- typically people would want -- people
11 who have children want a home with a backyard and a
12 play set and stuff like that.
13 This is going to be hopefully for people who
14 want to, you know, downsize, stay in Scituate.
15 People who are leaving their home. The policeman,
16 the fireman, the teacher who lived in this town or
17 the people with the same economic level and give
18 them an opportunity and a place to live.
19 MR. COSTAKOS: Then does the workforce --
20 MR. SHEKARCHI: That's correct.
21 MR. COSTAKOS: -- in Scituate get
22 preferential treatment for the affordable housing?
23 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: No.
24 MR. SHEKARCHI: I don't know the

55
1 answer. Let me just check with Richard. I don't

2 think you can discriminate. I think Rhode Island
3 Housing will treat everybody the same. So I think
4 we can give a housing preference or a discount to a
5 Scituate residence or preference. I don't think
6 it's allowable.
7 Certainly we'd sell to anybody. We'd hope
8 people from Scituate want to live here. And some
9 people have actually contacted us and said that,
10 you know, when do you think you may be ready? I'd
11 like to live -- it's kind of cool to live in the
12 mill. I'd like to live there. I'd like to live in
13 this kind of community. But there is no preference
14 that I am aware of that we are allowed to give.
15 This project will hopefully, you know, at some
16 point will receive tax credits from Rhode Island
17 Housing. And when we receive those tax credits, we
18 have to follow the rules, you know, all the
19 anti-discriminatory, you know everybody has to be
20 treated fairly and equally.
21 MR. DURFEE: The only problem with that --
22 I just was wondering why you bring up workforce
23 housing if the workforce doesn't get some kind --
24 MR. SHEKARCHI: Break or discount? I

56
1 understand completely.
2 MR. DURFEE: Not a discount, more
3 availability.
4 MR. SHEKARCHI: Well, we hope -- we've
5 been doing this, I've been doing this for two years
6 now with this development and we have been to many
7 public hearings and I know it's been written about
8 and talked about and elected officials talked about
9 it, so I'm hoping that people will realize that if
10 we complete the project by the end of the year,
11 we're, that we can open it up to reservations and
12 the first people we are going to market to, the
13 first people we are going to ask are the people in
14 the town.
15 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Any other questions?
16 MR. CASTAKOS: So where does the 40
17 percent -- I think I can talk loud enough. Where
18 does the 40 percent come from? In other words, how
19 is it defined as 40 percent? Can you change the 40
20 percent or does Rhode Island Housing -- basically
21 you're going for some kind of bonds or tax credits.
22 So Rhode Island Housing says it's 40 percent and
23 it's going to be 40 percent forever or can it
24 change?

57
1 MR. SHEKARCHI: They put a restriction on,

2 I believe it's at least 30 years. Thirty years, I
3 am correct. It is 30 years and Rhode Island
4 Housing regulates that. Rhode Island Housing sets
5 the rules and regulations for the affordability.
6 And when the affordability component ends,
7 then the -- 30 years from now, 30 years from when
8 they start, then we can reapply, we can extend it
9 or return to market rate.
10 MR. COSTAKOS: Is it 40 percent of phase 1
11 or is it --
12 MR. SHEKARCHI: The entire project.
13 MR. COSTAKOS: -- the entire project. So
14 what would phase 1's percentage of affordable
15 housing be?
16 MR. SHEKARCHI: It will still -- it would
17 be 40 percent right across the board. It wouldn't
18 --
19 MR. COSTAKOS: So as each phase comes
20 online...
21 MR. SHEKARCHI: Each phase would have to
22 meet that requirement.
23 (INAUDIBLE)
24 MR. SHEKARCHI: As far as the construction

58
1 goes but Rhode Island Housing determines...

2 MR. COSTAKOS: But phase 1 is 100 percent
3 affordable housing?
4 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: That's correct.
5 MR. SHEKARCHI: I believe we build them
6 that way but Rhode Island Housing will ultimately
7 determine which ones and how -- and Rhode Island
8 does -- we're going to offer those first.
9 MR. COSTAKOS: There may only be a phase
10 1. There is no guarantee a phase 2, right?
11 MR. SHEKARCHI: That's true with any
12 project. That's -- I can't dispute that.
13 MR. COSTAKOS: It's 100 percent affordable
14 housing?
15 MR. SHEKARCHI: Yes. And as stated by Mr.
16 Pimentel, affordable housing does not mean
17 subsidized housing. It does not mean public
18 housing or Section 8. Affordable refers to the
19 price and the applicant buying it and their income
20 tax.
21 I think a question was asked: How do you
22 determine that? Well, Rhode Island Housing
23 determines that. There's a very stringent process
24 that wealthy people don't use them as investments

59
1 and stuff like that. You have to submit your

2 income tax. You have to sign forms. Those forms
3 are very strict now after the banking crisis of
4 about 10 years ago. So Rhode Island Housing
5 marches very carefully who gets affordable housing
6 and it goes to people with a certain income
7 bracket.
8 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Anybody else? Any
9 Members of the Board want anybody -- any of the
10 other experts from Paramount to speak at this
11 point?
12 MR. RAMBONE: Yes. I just had some
13 questions about the septic. You had stated that it
14 was not feasible to use the sewers to tie into Kent
15 County or --
16 MR. SHEKARCHI: I'll be happy to have
17 Kevin Morin answer that but Rich do you want to
18 answer that question first for the building 1,
19 phase 1?
20 MR. DEROSAS: Yeah, I just wanted to get
21 back to phase 1, 100 percent affordable. The
22 numbers don't really work for phase 1 to have any
23 market-rate units. We've got extremely high costs.
24 We've already spent 1 million dollars just on

60
1 engineering. We've got to put in an on-site septic

2 system. That's north of 1.5 million dollars. The
3 mill, if I took you in there, you would be shocked.
4 We've already supported quite a few of the beams.
5 A lot of them mushroomed. It's in terrible shape
6 so the tax credits afford us to, allows us to, you
7 know, make the numbers work.
8 MR. COSTAKOS: What is building 3? What
9 state does building 3 stay in until it is
10 developed?
11 MR. DEROSAS: We want to stabilize
12 building 3. It's got a 4' -- it's 4' deep in the
13 basement. What we'd like to do is remove the
14 interior of mill 3 and turn it into a park, put
15 some sod down and later we will take that sod out
16 and use it throughout the development possibly.
17 And eventually, mill 3 underneath will be parking.
18 It will be 44 units above the parking.
19 MR. COSTAKOS: So building 3 will just
20 basically be a shell, an open shell?
21 MR. DEROSAS: Yeah, it would be an open
22 shell, yeah.
23 MR. COSTAKOS: Basically your getting --
24 because it looks dilapidated now, so.

61
1 MR. DEROSAS: Yeah, it will actually be

2 kind of nice. It will be a little park.
3 MR. COSTAKOS: So you kind of have the
4 foundation and the frame will remain but...
5 MR. DEROSAS: Yeah, that's right. All of
6 the exterior walls will remain. The rest is
7 rotted. There is no wood left in there. Many of
8 the wood beams are rotted. The steel is
9 deteriorating. Nothing of us in there.
10 MR. COSTAKOS: There will be no nuisance?
11 MR. DEROSAS: You can't even walk in there
12 right now.
13 MR. COSTAKOS: There will be no nuisance?
14 So you -- you're going to demolish anything that is
15 unsafe?
16 MR. DEROSAS: That's right.
17 MR. COSTAKOS: And if phase 2 never gets
18 developed?
19 MR. DEROSAS: It will still be a park.
20 MR. COSTAKOS: It will be basically a park
21 --
22 MR. DEROSAS: Yeah.
23 MR. COSTAKOS: -- inside of a brick shell?
24 MR. DEROSAS: Yeah. Like I said, it's

62
1 only 4' deep inside of the shell. The floor is

2 actually 4' above the ground at the present time.
3 I've seen it done before. It's actually very
4 nice. It's a park in Lowell. It has the same
5 setup. They kept the exterior walls. It's
6 actually a beautiful park.
7 MR. COSTAKOS: Would that be available for
8 parking as part of -- if there's a parking issue,
9 would that be available for parking as part of
10 phase 1?
11 MR. DEROSAS: No, I don't want to have
12 that as parking for phase 1 because eventually the
13 -- we would have to move those cars out of there to
14 do construction. I'd rather take up additional
15 spaces on the new buildings. If we have to, you
16 know, landscape that area with pea stone and park
17 there temporarily. Thank you.
18 MR. MORIN: Good evening. Kevin Morin
19 with DiPrete Engineering, registered professional
20 civil engineer.
22 MR. MORIN: Yeah, as far as the -- I guess
23 there were two questions: One of the sewer and the
24 other, maybe some more information on the septic.

63
1 So let's talk about the sewer briefly. You

2 know, it was originally in the concept for the
3 mill, going back 10, 11 years ago was an off-site
4 sewer extension through Scituate, Coventry and into
5 West Warwick. The route is about 1.8 miles. It
6 originated on the Hope Mill property but then it
7 went through other properties, through those other
8 municipalities. Not under control or under
9 ownership of my client or the property owner of the
10 time.
11 So it's, you know, it's a long way. It -- the
12 route that was contemplated was basically to follow
13 the old the railway, which is no longer there.
14 Much of the route was boarding or within RI DEM
15 jurisdiction, whether it be river bank wetlands or
16 vegetated wetland, permanent wetland.
17 You know, there's a process that would be
18 involved with that. It's an order of approval.
19 It's wetlands. Working through both, well, all
20 three communities in terms on how that design
21 ultimately would shape up and would follow a route
22 that was considered or go some other route, on
23 city/town roads, what have you.
24 You know, when -- as we've -- there's been a

64
1 lot of interest in this property since, you know,

2 we started on it about 10 or 11 years ago. Septic
3 was always something that was contemplated, kicked
4 around. We never got really got into a point of
5 evaluating it as an option for this project until
6 Paramount came along.
7 We had some initial meeting with RI DOT. We
8 had preliminary site testing to even see if it was
9 even feasible. Does it fit with the environmental
10 characterization of the site? And everything kind
11 of fell into place and we kept pursuing it and
12 meeting with DEM and looking at the technology
13 that's available. And hopefully -- it lead to us
14 filing an application to DEM.
15 It's a large system. It's 38,410 gallon per
16 day system at full build out assuming 150 gallons
17 per bedroom everyday -- probably would never get to
18 that point, but that's what it's designed for. You
19 know, 100 percent occupancy, those types of things.
20 It did require some variances, prior
21 coordination with the wetlands program as well.
22 We used advanced advance treatment technology
23 to get the waste water to get treated to a high
24 level. One of the major drivers was getting

65
1 nitrogen from the affluent, coming out of the

2 system down to 10 milligrams per liter. That was
3 always the point that DEM was looking for. So we
4 showed how we can do that.
5 We worked with vendors for the equipment. We
6 have a drip, basically, a drip irrigation, drip
7 dispersal system essentially. Very low technology.
8 Just waste water is pumped in. It's a relatively
9 small footprint. It kind of fits in that island
10 area that is in the light cream, in the lower-right
11 corner of the property. (INDICATING)
12 Basically the idea is to maintain it like a,
13 sort of like a field. Mow it may be a couple of
14 times a year but have like the wildlife mix growing
15 there and not have it like a manicured area or
16 anything like that.
17 So we worked really close with DEM on that.
18 It will be a managed system, monthly, quarterly.
19 Inspections, testing, you know, all of that stuff.
20 DEM is very thorough on how they wanted this done.
21 We gave them a very detailed
22 operations/maintenance plan. And so ultimately
23 they have to -- the owner would have to contract
24 vendors who are licensed to operate and to monitor

66
1 that. It has a telemetry component, meaning they

2 can monitor it remotely. If there is an alarm,
3 they can see what it is and address it right on the
4 spot or if it is something more critical, the next
5 day.
6 MR. COSTAKOS: What can fail?
7 MR. MORIN: I mean, you could have pumps
8 fail. You could have, you know, electrical
9 problems. It's panels. It's electricity.
10 MR. COSTAKOS: If we had a hurricane and
11 we lost power for a week, what would happen?
12 MR. MORIN: Well, the septic is intended
13 to tie into the backup power for the -- well, it's
14 going to be associated with the mill. So the
15 septic components will be tied to that generator.
16 So that is a backup power.
17 If there was some failure where you needed to
18 have pumping done, you could bring in a septic
19 pump, you know, to pump the septic tanks. Have it
20 like a temporary storage if you had to replace a
21 pump. There are duplex pumps in every component.
22 So there is a backup to the backup.
23 Just likely different than the municipal pump
24 stations. You know, during a hurricane, if

67
1 something goes down that's a major component, a

2 major pumping station, you know, backup power,
3 alarms on the pumps, those sorts of things. Having
4 an operator on call that can get those alarms.
5 So, I mean, you know, is a septic possible? A
6 septic is possible. The septic allows them to
7 phase in some cost and phase in construction. You
8 don't have to do it all at once. That's an
9 advantage just from a capital standpoint, you know,
10 for the developer. You know, the timing. You
11 know, figuring out off-site easements, three
12 municipalities, the permitting. That's a long
13 road. That's a hard road. It's not an easy
14 process. We never started the detail for that, so.
15 It was never anything we tasked for.
16 MR. GADDES: Can you explain the phasing
17 as far as what's -- can you just go in a little
18 more detail as far as the phasing as far as what is
19 built out -- what's built our for 1, 2 and 3?
20 MR. MORIN: Yeah, what would happen is the
21 major infrastructure, the sewer -- the mains that
22 would be under pavement, that will often go in the
23 first phase. So most of the infrastructure and the
24 parking area associated with all three buildings,

68
1 all three phases would probably go in at once.

2 It's really the treatment system could be
3 phased. I'm not saying it will be but it could be.
4 There's an equalization tank. There's multiple
5 septic tanks. Again, those will probably go in
6 initially just because to dig -- have those
7 excavations once you're operational in phase 1
8 would be complicated.
9 But there is an equalization tank. That will
10 go in phase 1. There's -- then there is a series
11 of treatment units. There's eight treatment units.
12 They're AdvanTex AX100. They're basically like
13 pods. Those are very easily phased. You can bring
14 them online as you need them for the treatment, for
15 the flow that you're getting.
16 MR. COSTAKOS: Does a leach field grow
17 with the phases or is that done all at once?
18 MR. MORIN: The leach field, you know,
19 that could be phased. I think we'd probably go in
20 one, the 1st phase. And you can operate -- you can
21 have controls on that too to use one. It's
22 basically a zoned system. You can use -- do it
23 that way.
24 It's mainly the treatment, you know, the tanks

69
1 and chambers themselves. But I think a lot of the

2 infrastructure, the -- there's a dosing tank that
3 pumps out to the final disposal, the dispersal
4 field, that will have to go in phase 1. So there
5 are some costs that you can defer. You don't have
6 to ship everything out all at once and pay all of
7 the capital all at once. Your controls would be
8 set up for the future tie-ins for the other
9 components.
10 MR. GADDES: In terms of the enforcement,
11 DEM has set these regulations -- you're using the
12 DEM regulations. As far as the enforcement of
13 those regulations, if -- because the main
14 difference of what you explained is that you really
15 can't compare this to a municipal system because
16 it's a private system. So if, for whatever reason,
17 this owner goes into default or for whatever
18 reason, what happens with this -- what happens with
19 this system?
20 MR. MARIN: Yeah, I mean, if their
21 reporting stops for some reason, if they don't
22 report --
23 MR. GADDES: Exactly.
24 MR. MORIN: -- the water quality testing

70
1 and things like that.

2 MR. GADDES: There's a provision in here
3 where -- from the Green Water that the owner has to
4 provide telephone -- a telephone line?
5 MR. MORIN: Yes.
6 MR. GADDES: But what happens if that
7 telephone line goes out? I'm not sure what --
8 what's DEM to do in a case like that because that's
9 why I need to know where the enforcement is. I
10 don't think it's within the town.
11 MR. MORIN: If the conditions of the
12 permit are not being met or there is a public
13 health, safety and welfare issue that's -- it's
14 obvious that a complaint gets called in for
15 something like that. You know, compliance -- the
16 compliance part of DEM will certainly respond to
17 that. But if it was a reporting or results weren't
18 provided, they would probably -- I mean, DEM has,
19 you know, it goes into an enforcement process. A
20 notice from DEM, a violation gets recorded,
21 penalties, fines. That would essentially be the
22 process it will follow if they don't meet the
23 conditions of the permit.
24 You know, I know before the system is given an

71
1 operational, you know, a certificate of

2 performance, you know, my -- our office would be
3 required to oversee in installations and certify
4 that. DEM would actually issue a performance or a
5 partial if we did a phase of construction, partial
6 conformance. That would go to the building
7 official and they wouldn't release an occupancy
8 until they get at least that initial piece.
9 Long term, I think it's more if the reporting
10 stops happening, you would go to enforcement. It's
11 probably a slow process of letters and then it
12 would go -- escalate from there. You know, I am
13 not an expert on the DEM enforcement process but
14 I've been involved with it and seen it.
15 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: There was some
16 flooding in 2011, I believe it was of that
17 property. How -- if that were to repeat, what
18 would happen to this system?
19 MR. MORIN: Where the system is --
20 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Yup.
21 MR. MORIN: There was no flooded during
22 2010.
23 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yes, it was.
24 MR. MORIN: I was on the site in 2010. I

72
1 went out there the day of the flooding.

2 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: It was washed out.
3 MR. MORIN: It was flooded the whole west
4 side.
5 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: It washed that road
6 right out.
7 MR. MORIN: It flooded around the island.
8 It's not in 100-year flood plan. I mean, that was
9 more than a 100-year flood. That was a -- I don't
10 know what you want to call it, an extreme event.
11 You know, it's at the highest elevation of that
12 area.
13 KNOWN SPEAKER: (INAUDIBLE)
14 MR. MORIN: Yeah, I think the spillway
15 going through the mill where the (INAUDIBLE) ran, I
16 think that was closed at the time of the flooding.
17 And the water went around the mill essentially on
18 the east side --
19 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Uh-hum.
20 MR. MORIN: -- during that and then
21 essentially back into the river. But to the best
22 of my knowledge, I was out there, I didn't go on
23 the site, I saw it from the street, Mill Street, my
24 recollection is that there was no flooding in the

73
1 area where the septic is being proposed. It's the

2 highest elevation of the site. It's not in the
3 100-year floodplain.
4 MR. COSTAKOS: Were any of the building or
5 the parking impacted by any of that?
6 MR. MORIN: It came, yeah, it flooded
7 around the east side, the Mill Street side, washed
8 out area along there and flooded on the west
9 (INAUDIBLE) side as the driveway comes around that
10 corner of the northwest corner, that was -- that
11 was pretty significant river flood stage.
12 MR. COSTAKOS: So from this picture, the
13 top left corner was touched, was impacted?
14 MR. MORIN: It came around this corner.
15 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: No, the other side.
16 MR. MORIN: This side. It came around the
17 middle. Some of it flooded like across this front
18 and it flooded this other side.
19 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yes.
20 MR. COSTAKOS: But it certainly wouldn't
21 inundate the parking lot as we see it in this
22 picture?
24 MR. MORIN: It may come into the driveway

74
1 and come down --

2 (AUDIENCE INTERRUPTION)
3 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. I need to
4 take this down for the record. You will have your
5 chance to comment, please. I'm sorry, could you
6 repeat that.
7 MR. MORIN: The flooding came along this
8 whole left side of the building. It came up and
9 around and back around this side. It flooded this
10 right hand side. Again, this area is, you know, my
11 recollection was not flooded. (INDICATING)
12 You know, the project is not in the 100-year
13 -- we are in the 100-year floodplain with the
14 project. That is part of the RI DEM review that
15 happened. If it were an extreme event like we had
16 in 2010, you know, if this is damaged, it will need
17 to be repaired.
18 There will be, you know, interim pumping
19 maybe. You know, there's ways to handle that. But
20 if this area were washed out from some extreme
21 event more than 2010, it will have to be repaired
22 just like all the, you know, coastal areas down in
23 Westerly in that same 2010 storm, Sandy. It's site
24 along the river, so there is floodplain there on

75
1 the site.
2 (INAUDIBLE)
3 MR. MORIN: Yeah, DEM looks at floodplains
4 as part of the application process. We had to
5 address it in the applications. So it was
6 something that was looked very closely on both
7 sides, our side and RI DEM.
8 MR. GADDES: As far as the maintenance
9 contract, within the documents that we have, the
10 proposal from Green Water -- is that intended
11 vendor?
12 MR. MORIN: Yes, that's -- at the time --
13 yes, that's who we had gotten the support from, the
14 application, coordinated the equipment
15 specifications with.
16 MR. GADDES: So that, going forward, if
17 this were to go forward, that maintenance
18 agreement, I believe was part of the DEM
19 requirements that still has to be approved?
20 MR. MORIN: Yes, that's the intent. It
21 will be have to be recorded as well as part of the
22 permit.
23 MR. COSTAKOS: Is there a bond?
24 MR. MORIN: To my knowledge, there was no

76
1 bond required as part of the DEM approval.

2 MR. D'AMICO: How would the cost sustain
3 over the long run?
4 MR. MORIN: The cost for --
5 MR. RAMBONE: The cost for maintaining the
6 system and servicing it?
7 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Can you use the
8 microphone.
9 MR. RAMBONE: How would the cost of the
10 system be maintained over the long run was my
11 question.
12 MR. MORIN: It would be, as part of the
13 income from, you know, rents from the apartments.
14 The operations maintenance we estimated with the
15 Green technology the average, the annual
16 operational maintenance, once everything is up and
17 operational, all three phases, in the order of
18 $12,000 a year.
19 And then you have electric costs which vary
20 based on electric rates but somewhere between 900
21 and $1,800 a month essentially, so. That would be
22 part of the operating costs for the long term.
23 Just like plowing and all the other stuff.
24 MR. RAMBONE: Okay.

77
1 MR. COSTAKOS: Are there any chemicals

2 stored on-site?
3 MR. MORIN: There's a small building
4 proposed near the leach, near the septic system
5 leach field with, you know, the controls,
6 electrical, you know, the alarms, all that stuff.
7 Potentially two chemicals. One is a PH
8 adjustment, which is pretty common. The other is
9 organic carbon. Basically a carbon source to help
10 to treat to a lower level.
11 MR. COSTAKOS: They're not volatile.
12 MR. MORIN: To my knowledge, no. It's
13 relatively common in a system like this that you
14 have some additions that you make to get the right
15 treatment level.
16 MR. GADDES: Is there a requirement to
17 test the river like now versus when this is
18 operational?
19 MR. MORIN: No. There is no requirement
20 to do that. The testing locations -- the location
21 specified by DEM one is where -- there's an
22 equalization tank that flows from the different
23 phases essentially, collect all that waste water
24 into one tank, 20,000, 25-30,000 tank to kind of

78
1 blend the waste water so you have a consistent

2 input.
3 One is to test it there before it goes into
4 treatment. And the other is at the dosing tank,
5 which is at the end of the treatment, when you have
6 the final discharge out into the leach field.
7 So those are the two components and that's
8 what DEM will be looking at.
9 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Anybody else?
10 MR. COSTAKOS: One last question. If you
11 were walking on it, would you ever know that there
12 was anything there?
13 MR. MORIN: No, it would -- especially
14 with the mix that we have proposed, it would be
15 less visible. I mean, we've done these systems in
16 lawn areas. A little more visibly you may have
17 some, you know, access points in there but you
18 wouldn't see it.
19 MR. COSTAKOS: Right. You wouldn't see it
20 any more than our own leach field?
21 MR. MORIN: No. I mean, it doesn't it
22 doesn't require a sand filter of something like
23 where you'd see the raised box along the surface.
24 You wouldn't see that.

79
1 MR. SHEKARCHI: Mr. Chairman, at this

2 point, I'd like to offer Mr. Morin as an expert,
3 whose testified many times in the state of Rhode
4 Island and is a certified engineering expert.
5 And I just want to make a point and address --
6 I know there are justifiable concerns about this
7 system. But this system was a system that was very
8 detailed and analyzed by DEM, designed by DiPrete
9 and went back and forth and DEM ultimately approved
10 this system.
11 Approved it with a third-party monitor,
12 monitoring company as well and this system is state
13 of the art. This is the best that's available
14 today. And is something that's intended to handle
15 the flow of this and it can handle it for the
16 long-term, for the foreseeable future.
17 The maintenance -- the chemicals we talked
18 about are all organic. There are -- some are no
19 different than you put in your swimming pool.
20 They're not volatile by any stretch of it.
21 They're safe. They're suitable for on-site use and
22 as you see, the cost is approximately 25,000 a year
23 for the system between the electricity and the main
24 cost for the third-party vendor.

80
1 So it is a viable system, and, quite frankly,

2 when we talked about the sewer option, it just --
3 it can't happen. It didn't happen.
4 And if it was so good, why didn't it happen 12
5 years ago? It can't happen. You can't go through
6 three towns like that. The permitting would be a
7 nightmare. You have to go through DEM to adjust
8 wetlands. You have to go through DEM for riverbank
9 and you have go through some people's private
10 property that my client or anybody who controls
11 this mill doesn't control.
12 So it might sound good. It might -- we'd like
13 to all have sewers and maybe extend it in the town
14 and have other residents connect but -- you know
15 it's feasible. I'd like to get the winning number
16 for power ball but it's not going to happen. We
17 can hope but doesn't happen.
18 So this is feasible and this is real and this
19 is a DEM-approved system, septic system. Thank
20 you.
21 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: To the public's
22 concerns, I will give you an opportunity to address
23 your concerns. Please hold on while we get these
24 questions out. We may have your answers if you're

81
1 listening closely to -- and allow what is going on.

2 Did you have any other representatives that
3 you wanted to present at this point?
4 MR. SHEKARCHI: Not at this time. This
5 concludes our presentation. Everybody will remain
6 for questions from the Board or the public.
7 I think at one point, you might want to have
8 -- you mentioned you want to hear from the Fire
9 Chief while he's here.
10 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Mr. JR Robinson, would
11 you come forward. JR Robinson is the Chief of the
12 Hope/Jackson Fire Department.
13 At this point, I would like him to address his
14 concerns of the height of the building, any fire
15 protection issues that he might have concerns with
16 on the property so we as a whole and the community
17 are aware of what we're dealing with.
18 FIRE CHIEF ROBINSON: Again, My name is
19 John Robinson, Chief of the Hope/Jackson fire
20 company. 117 Main Street in Hope. Let me just
21 start by saying -- I just want to address the
22 issues as they relate to fire suppression and life
23 safety regarding the Hope Mill.
24 Myself and my assistant chief who is also the

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1 fire marshal of the town and down the village of

2 Hope, John Chevalier, had multiple conversations
3 with the Paramount Group and --
4 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: JR. I have to
5 interrupt you.
6 FIRE CHIEF ROBINSON: Can you hear me?
7 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I failed -- no. I
8 failed to swear you in.
10 FIRE CHIEF ROBINSON: So regarding our
11 conversations and a number of meetings we had
12 requested several changes throughout the process
13 with the system relating to NFPA1 and 101 life
14 safety code and NFPA13, which would actually exceed
15 some of those code standards regarding some of the
16 water flow calculations and our ability to enhance
17 those water flow pressures should we need to.
18 Specifically having the site of the FDC or the
19 fire department connection moved to the roadway,
20 allowing us access to the high service system and
21 allowing us to use more pressure in the standpipe
22 systems that will be in the back two buildings, the
23 buildings that exceed -- currently exceed height
24 exception.

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1 All of their calculations submitted to us --

2 they made the adequate changes. And they all meet
3 or exceed the current Rhode Island fire codes, 101,
4 life safety codes and NFPA13. So from a fire
5 department standpoint, they've met the requirements
6 of the code.
7 As far as any another concerns, I know there
8 were some concerns raised about the capabilities.
9 You know, inherently, right now, this structure is
10 at the highest level of risk as it sits today.
11 This is where the highest number of fires occur and
12 affect exposures related to the dwelling.
13 The second highest rate of fire is during the
14 construction phase itself. So when that phase is
15 or should be enacted, we would require that some
16 more meetings took place specifically related to
17 the placement of supplies, materials used within
18 the construction phase, where they're placed, makes
19 sure they allow us appropriate access to the
20 dwellings on the property and those that abut the
21 property.
22 Inherently again, the least chance of fire is
23 when this is completed and the sprinkler systems
24 are actually activated and supplied.

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1 These are single units or two-bedroom units.

2 The highest rate of fire in these units are always
3 contained -- mostly contained in the room of
4 origin. Very, very few fires spread outside of
5 that room of origin with an effective sprinkler
6 system in place.
7 The code requires just an hour rating on the
8 floors and an hour on the means of egress, of the
9 stairways because it is sprinklered. Otherwise,
10 they would be two hours. They meet those codes.
11 It gives people plenty of time to get out of the
12 building. That's why the Rhode Island fire code
13 adopted the NFPA 2012 standard to make sure that
14 those needs are meet. So from that aspect, I can
15 see that they meet those needs.
16 As far as during the construction phase, there
17 will need to be some meetings, some continual
18 meetings should we get to that point to just to
19 make sure that we comply or they comply with our
20 needs as a fire service to adequately get into that
21 building or protect some of the exposures
22 surrounding that building.
23 The yard hydrant system also contains enough
24 flow and enough volume to supply both the

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1 standpipes, the sprinkler units and allows us to

2 effectively provide fire suppression to any of
3 those buildings.
4 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Questions?
5 MR. COSTAKOS: If everything fails, if
6 everything goes wrong, is there any point on these
7 buildings that aren't assessable to you from the
8 ground with a ladder? Can you get to at any
9 portions of these buildings that you have to?
10 FIRE CHIEF ROBINSON: We can't now. As it
11 stays as it was, as a regular mill complex but when
12 those two new structures -- ladder companies
13 inherently don't reach the tops of buildings.
14 So yes, there will be point where we cannot
15 reach but that's the same in many communities. If
16 you travel down the road to in Johnston or in West
17 Warwick, there are many buildings that are --
18 exceed our ability to reach.
19 MR. COSTAKOS: Even the upper floor, in
20 respect of the roof, even the upper floors, you
21 wouldn't get at, you don't have access to?
22 FIRE CHIEF ROBINSON: It will be close to
23 some of the upper floors but I can't -- I can't
24 tell you that definitely. But that's why the fire

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1 suppression systems are in place, is allow means of

2 egress to lower floors to effect the rescues.
3 But yes, any community faces that. I mean,
4 inherently with the new type of structures and
5 high-rise buildings and typically in these
6 moderate-rise buildings, ladder companies don't
7 reach the tops of them.
8 (INAUDIBLE)
9 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Any other questions
10 for Mr. Robinson? None? Thank you, Mr. Robinson.
11 I appreciate your time.
12 FIRE CHIEF ROBINSON: You're welcome.
13 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: At this time I would
14 like to ask the representative from the village
15 overlay, the Hope Village Overlay to come forward.
16 MR. FARIA: Fred Faria, Chairman Hope VOC.
18 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Can you kind of give
19 us a little bit of an overview of what your
20 organization or your group has done to this point
21 with this process?
22 MR. FARIA: For the last year we have met
23 twice with the developers and committees met on
24 March 22nd. We specifically reviewed the existing

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1 buildings to meet the historic preservation

2 standards and we approved the changes. And since
3 with them coming back for specifics for all kinds
4 of things. But the general approval, we further
5 met with them on April 20th, no, April 27th and
6 they requested a waiver to have -- to increase
7 parking in the front of Hope Mill. They requested
8 two handicap parking spots and nine parking spots.
9 Since there was already parking there in the front
10 of the mill, we approved that waiver.
11 Secondly at that same meeting, we had a very
12 lengthy meeting because of the facts that they were
13 looking for a waiver to exceed the village overlay
14 standards of 2,000 square feet for a footprint of a
15 building. And their new buildings would be 10,400
16 square feet.
17 And we had numerous public comments. We heard
18 from everyone present. We went back and forth over
19 it and we even went as far as poling the public for
20 and against and the public attendees were in the
21 favor of the waiver and then we voted on it and we
22 approved the waiver. And that's the long and short
23 of it.
24 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Thank you very much.

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1 Any questions of Mr. Faria?

2 MR. FARIA: Thank you.
3 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I'd like at this point
4 to take 10 minutes. Just so that people can
5 stretch their legs a little bit and then we can get
6 going with the public comment because that's what I
7 expect will have some lengthy discussion on.
8 But if we can take 10 minutes and I mean 10
9 minutes, I'm going to start it back up at 5 of 9.
10 It's right now quarter of 9.
11 (BREAK TAKEN AT 8:52 P.M.)
12 (BACK ON THE RECORD AT 9:05 P.M.)
13 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: As we begin the next
14 phase of this, I've asked Paramount to kind of give
15 an overview because a few people -- I tried to walk
16 up to the restroom there, a few people -- a few of
17 you approached me about a little more conceptional
18 renderings of what this is going to look like and
19 so that you would have a comfort factor. And that
20 may answer some more of your questions. We've
21 tried to do this -- answer questions here so that
22 we can avoid individual questions as much as
23 possible. So we are getting the answers for you as
24 we go through, so hopefully Mr. Shekarchi --

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1 MR. SHEKARCHI: I have the architect

2 Tanya. She's putting up some pictures behind you,
3 Mr. Chairman. And I'll let Tanya kind of walk you
4 through and maybe we can borrow Nicole's pointer
5 and Tanya is going to tell you a little bit more
6 about the details, what it looks like.
7 But when we met with the gentleman that spoke
8 before about the commission review, we went into
9 very great detail in terms of cupola and the kinds
10 of materials and everything else.
11 And I -- I'm trying to move -- maybe you can
12 pass your microphone to her and then she can do
13 that? Or do you want to come here? Perfect, she
14 will come right here. Thank you.
15 MS. CARRIER: Hello. I just want to show
16 some of the exterior of the new buildings that are
17 proposed. Here are some elevations showing the
18 architecture. (INDICATING) And we're proposing to
19 keep it in style with the existing mill buildings.
20 We propose a brick facade. The first floor
21 there, this floor is the open parking, which we
22 have archways to define it. And then, the four
23 stories above would be the residences.
24 And we propose traditional style windows and

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1 cornice. As well as the brick all to match the

2 existing buildings.
3 And here is some 3D views. This shows the
4 existing building, which we plan to refurbish,
5 repoint and restore the stone facade. All the
6 windows will be replaced with like kind, whether it
7 -- they have different grid patterns that were
8 existing so each of those will be respective to
9 what it was historically.
10 Down here (INDICATING) you can see the
11 building 3, which has the sawtooth roof design.
12 And this building, the roof will be new to emulate
13 the existing roof. In the center we wold propose a
14 courtyard. And then, the walls would be existing
15 and they will be braced and then restored to the
16 their original beauty. Next.
17 And here's just a couple of additional views
18 of the site. You can see the parking here. The
19 sawtooth building. The existing building. And
20 then, here you can see the end of the new building.
21 (INDICATING) Next.
22 And then here's what the backside of the two
23 new buildings will look like, which would be almost
24 identical to each other. And in the foreground the

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1 existing buildings here. (INDICATING) Next.

2 These two show existing versus proposed. As a
3 -- from the street, Main Street. This is the
4 existing building 1 and 2 and 3 here. And then,
5 here, in the proposed, you can see building 14 and
6 15 are added in the background. And from the
7 street, they wouldn't appear any higher than the
8 existing building here. (INDICATING) Next.
9 And then we've taken a few perspectives from
10 Mill Street to show you what it would look like.
11 This rendering shows, the top rendering shows a
12 little bit further back on the street, what you
13 would see, which is just the existing building.
14 And then, as you move in closer to the site,
15 at the end of Mill Street, you will see the top
16 floor here of the new building proposed along with
17 the existing building. (INDICATING)
18 That's all. Do you have any questions, I'll
19 be happy to answer?
20 MR. COSTAKOS: Did you saying there was
21 going to be parking underneath the two new
22 buildings?
23 MS. CARRIERE: Correct, yes, open parking.
24 MR. COSTAKOS: And if they're not built,

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1 those spaces are part of the spaces provided?

2 MS. CARRIERE: Yes, they are included in
3 the count.
4 MR. COSTAKOS: So if the two new buildings
5 were built, there will be no loss of space?
7 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Anybody else on the
8 Board -- thank you, Tanya.
9 At this point, I will like to open the meeting
10 to the public questions and concerns. If you come
11 forward, I'm going to ask you to speak in a
12 microphone. I will call on you and I'm going to
13 try to do in the order when people are coming up.
14 I am going to ask you to try to keep your
15 comments to what was read at the beginning in terms
16 of what we are able to be voting on, in term of the
17 ordinance or the variances, I'm sorry. So that's
18 an important aspect to it.
19 I will also as it relates to the -- if your
20 concern is in terms of doing the septic versus a
21 full sewer line aspect, please understand that we
22 as a Board do not have the authority to tell DEM
23 that we don't believe their -- what regulatory they
24 have authorized. So that is something that we have

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1 to keep in consideration when we are doing this,

2 reviewing this proposal.
3 So from a regulatory standpoint, we do have
4 some limitations. So if I'm telling you, "Sorry,
5 we can't do anything for you on that," please
6 understand that I'm just not trying to be
7 obnoxious. I'm just trying to deal with the facts
8 before us.
9 So any questions for us at this point? Come
10 to the microphone, please. If you have questions,
11 if you might stand by a microphone ahead of time
12 that will save a little bit of time for us.
13 MR. MIGNONE: Hello, everybody. My name
14 is Christopher Mignone. I live at 31 Colvin
15 Street. And if you were to look at the --
16 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Christopher, I have to
17 swear you in, I'm sorry.
19 MR. MIGNONE: So at the conclusion of the
20 last meeting that we had, I believe it was their
21 job to present a new revised plan of their
22 surrounding trails that they wanted to make through
23 their park-like grounds and that was not to impede
24 on the neighboring properties around this mill.

94
1 That's my first question.

2 And the second question is: Have they
3 attempted to apply for a permit for sewer? How
4 much would that cost?
5 And number 3, what -- well, my son goes to
6 Hope Elementary School and the reason why I chose
7 this neighborhood is because of that school. And I
8 can tell you right now, my son he's not 1/10 of a
9 child. He's like a maniac.
10 But, you know, my 1 household, I intend on
11 having a lot more kids and I can tell you right
12 now, if this thing is going to have 193 apartments,
13 then there's going to be 193 kids at least. So....
14 (APPLAUSE)
15 MR. MIGNONE: Those are my two questions.
16 So if we could just touch on the where we left off
17 at the last meeting. I know it's not -- it doesn't
18 have anything to do with variances and I know you
19 wanted to be specific with variances but that map
20 isn't accurate according to what we discussed last
21 time.
22 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Excuse me. When you
23 say the last meeting, are you talking a Zoning
24 Board Meeting?

95
1 MR. MIGNONE: It was the last meeting that

2 I attended for the Hope Mills. They were
3 discussing surrounding park-like grounds and wanted
4 to incorporate the woods behind the mill.
5 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I suspect that may be
6 the Village Overlay meeting is what you might be
7 referring to.
8 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: At the library.
9 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: No, I wasn't at the
10 library for any meeting. I was at this place right
11 here.
12 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Planning?
13 MR. MIGNONE: Planning, yeah.
14 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: That would have been
15 Planning. Well, because we -- that has not come
16 before us, any of that aspect.
17 MR. MIGNONE: Would they be able to touch
18 on that at all in this meeting?
19 MR. SHEKARCHI: I believe this gentleman
20 is referring to the Planning Board hearing at
21 master plan approval. And if we're successful
22 here, we will come back for preliminary approval
23 before the Planning Board and we'll address those
24 concerns at this time.

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1 I think there was an assertion that we had

2 some private trails going trough private property.
3 I can assure you that we did not. But we will
4 address that at that Board.
5 But as you point out, Mr. Chairman, that is
6 not part of our request for variances this evening.
7 So I'm not trying to skirt the issue. I will
8 give you my card. If you want to call me after, I
9 can put you in touch with the design team.
10 MR. MIGNONE: Yup.
11 MR. SHEKARCHI: You can get your answer
12 sooner, if we have another meeting.
13 MR. MIGNONE: I just think it will be
14 important for all these to hear because they might
15 not catch every meeting, just like myself. I work
16 40 plus hours a week.
17 And I just want a yes or no answer, does their
18 plans go beyond that black outline right there?
19 (INDICATING)
20 And also the construction of what they're
21 trying to do, are they going to have to get a
22 tractor on the other side of that bridge? How are
23 they going to get that tractor in there?
24 And then, are they going to be walking (SIC) a

97
1 backhoe through my property, which is right where

2 that P on that map is right there, on that Hope
3 Mills site plan?
4 MR. SHEKARCHI: We will not go through
5 your property.
6 MR. MIGNONE: That's great. That's all I
7 wanted to know.
8 MR. SHEKARCHI: Fair enough.
9 MR. MIGNONE: Thank you.
10 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: To your question on
11 the schools. The -- I have requested from the
12 school department some indication in terms of the
13 impact that this will project, you know, their
14 anticipation on that. I have been told, but I have
15 not got it in writing at this time, that the number
16 of students that are potential -- the impact that
17 this project will have is unlikely to have any
18 negative impact on the schools.
19 (DISRUPTION IN AUDIENCE)
20 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: We have space in the
21 schools is the direction -- the school's have
22 indicated that there is space in the respective
23 schools to accommodate the building at this point.
24 So that is, to my knowledge, that's the best I

98
1 can tell you at this point. I don't have any

2 specific numbers and the plans do not address a
3 specific number of people to be attending.
4 MR. MIGNONE: But more kids equals more
5 teachers.
7 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Right now, according
8 to the school department there are -- the classes
9 are not at their maximum capacity so more students
10 could be added to each of the respective
11 classrooms.
12 Clayville School is also not at capacity,
13 nowhere near capacity so it could be a situation
14 where they're, you know, ultimately if it was that
15 much of an impact, they would have the capacity to
16 do a, I'll say a shuffling, in terms of where
17 students go.
18 And I know that would not be popular but that
19 is, you know, those are options to be considered.
20 So that's the best of my knowledge that I can help
21 you with that question, response.
22 MR. MIGNONE: Thank you so much. And I am
23 sorry, one more question. Can we look forward to
24 getting a pamphlet to every meeting? How would

99
1 that -- how does the counsel meeting work? I know

2 that I get an e-mail but sometimes the e-mail
3 doesn't really get into as much detail as the
4 pamphlet that we all received for an invitation to
5 this meeting tonight.
6 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: In subsequent
7 meetings, what we will do is that we will make sure
8 that we've got plans spread out for you. We were
9 -- I was expecting that we will be able to
10 visualize more from the pictures that you're seeing
11 here.
12 I'm not sure how much more at this point other
13 than what you've seen presented before you that
14 they will be able to present but we will do our
15 best to make sure --
16 MR. MIGNONE: It's just -- I don't think
17 it's fair to the whole town because not everyone
18 can get a pamphlet.
19 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Yup. The information
20 as you've seen with each of us, we're looking at
21 three-ring binders basically with the information.
22 So that -- there has been extensive amount of
23 detail that's been presented and while we have it
24 available at the Town Hall in the building official

100
1 office for you to review and you're welcome to stop

2 by and see it there, for us to be able to share
3 that full amount of detail with everybody would be
4 one, cost prohibitive, but it will be -- I honestly
5 don't know how many people would actually take the
6 time to read what we've read to prepare for
7 tonight.
8 MR. MIGNONE: To be totally honest, I
9 don't think the average person here is really
10 concerned about -- I know that the engineers have,
11 you know, crossed their Ts and dotted the Is as far
12 as fire suppression goes and stuff like that, you
13 know, they are not going to let anybody move into
14 an unsafe building. But the problem is the amount
15 of people going in the building.
16 And the problem is, if something goes wrong
17 with that, you know, on a day that it's 5 degrees
18 outside and the ground is frozen, are you going to
19 get a construction company to come in and fix the
20 pipe when we're directly downstream and we got
21 runoff going through our properties.
22 I just think that there's -- for $1.5 on
23 engineering, I think there's got to be some kind of
24 plan B.

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1 (APPLAUSE)
2 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I appreciate your
3 input.
4 MR. MIGNONE: Thanks you so much.
5 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Anybody else? Please
6 come up and wait at the microphone so that we don't
7 waste time for people coming up to the microphone.
8 Yes, ma'am?
9 MS. BROUGHTON: Hi. Thank you. My name
10 is Christina Broughton. I live on Alyssa Court in
11 Hope.
12 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Christina, what was
13 your last name, please.
14 MS. BROUGHTON: Broughton.
15 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Can you spell it for
16 the stenographer, please.
17 MS. BROUGHTON: B-R-O-U-G-H-T-O-N.
19 MS. BROUGHTON: Okay. I can attest to all
20 the kids. I drove a school bus for 24 years. When
21 you pull up to an apartment building like this not
22 one but two, three buses fill up, okay.
23 And kids being as they are, you cannot get
24 them away from water. They are going to play in

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1 it. You can't stop them. What happens if someone

2 gets injured or God forbid drowns? Can the town be
3 sued for letting this be built on a river? That's
4 one question.
5 And almost everybody has two cars. There's
6 two adults in each apartment, they're probably
7 going to have two cars. What's it going to do to
8 our little-winding-narrow roads?
9 (APPLAUSE)
10 MS. BROUGHTON: The least they can do is
11 put an actual stoplight at 116; however, that would
12 be the very least, you know, widen the roads --
13 what's going to happen?
14 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: They upped the speed
15 limit by 5 miles an hour.
16 MS. BROUGHTON: So you can crash better.
17 Okay. And one more. One, question, I don't know
18 if you can -- are they going to get a tax break?
19 And if they do, is it going to be spread amongst
20 everyone else to take care of it?
21 (APPLAUSE)
22 MS. BROUGHTON: Or are our taxes going to
23 be lower? Those are my questions. Thank you every
24 much.

103
1 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: We don't have any

2 authority or any say in terms of tax breaks or
3 anything like that. That would be the town council
4 that would be making any assessment right there.
5 I have not heard of any proposals from that
6 standpoint. There in fact, the town, from the
7 comments I've heard from the Town Council is that
8 they will be looking forward to the tax revenues
9 that would be coming into that building that it is
10 not generating at this time.
11 MS. BROUGHTON: Will our taxes get lowered
12 in that case?
13 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Well, that would be
14 the hope.
15 MS. BROUGHTON: That would be the hope.
16 We live in the Hope.
17 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: So, in terms of --
18 that's their property. In terms of if an accident
19 happened on that property, that would be their
20 property. We do not, as a town, have control over
21 that. And I'll defer to counsel, if we -- he sees
22 us having any other liability beyond that?
23 MR. RUGGIERO: No.
24 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: He's saying no.

104
1 MR. RUGGIERO: You have to have a causal

2 relationship -- (INAUDIBLE)
3 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Did you hear him? He
4 said there has to be a causal relationship between
5 the injury and the actual loss, per se.
6 Mr. Shekarchi, do you have a traffic
7 person here --
8 MR. SHEKARCHI: Yes.
9 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: -- one of your experts
10 that can address the traffic?
11 MR. SHEKARCHI: More than happy to. From
12 Bryant -- I don't want to jump in front of this
13 lady.
14 From Bryant Associates, he's a traffic expert.
15 I'll let him describe the analysis he did and the
16 level of service. And I will also preemptively ask
17 that -- he has testified before many Boards and
18 Commissions as an expert -- that he also be
19 accepted as an expert this evening. Thank you.
20 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Bryant, (SIC) can you
21 state your name, please?
22 MR. BRAYTON: My name is Todd Brayton,
23 with Bryant Associates.
24 THE COURT REPORTER: Please spell your

105
1 last name.
2 MR. BRAYTON: B-R-A-Y-T-O-N.
4 MR. BRAYTON: So, I'll try to be brief.
5 We did do a traffic count in the surrounding areas.
6 The intersection of Hope Furnace Road and Main
7 Street and North Road and Main Street. And what it
8 boils down to is that there will be a minimal
9 impact from the traffic that will be generated.
10 (AUDIENCE DISRUPTION)
11 MR. BRAYTON: We used industry --
12 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Please let him address
13 us, please.
14 MR. BRAYTON: We used industry standards
15 to determine how many trips will be generated by
16 the number of units, 193 apartment units. And
17 based on that, we can determine how many trips
18 would be generated.
19 We can do the analysis of the intersections
20 and ultimately there is minimal impact from the
21 development.
22 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: When you say minimal
23 --
24 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: How did you come up with

106
1 that?
2 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Is there a number of
3 vehicles that you are projecting to --
4 MR. BRAYTON: Right.
5 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: -- come up with that?
6 MR. BRAYTON: I can give you those
7 numbers. So the 193 residential units would
8 generate 90 trips in the morning, which would be 20
9 entering and 78 exiting. This is in the a.m. peak
10 hours.
11 In the p.m. peak hours, there would 81
12 vehicles entering and 43 vehicles existing. About
13 124 total trips for that peak hour.
14 (AUDIENCE INTERRUPTION)
15 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Is that making a --
16 excuse me. Is that making a projection based on 1
17 car per unit or how many cars are you projecting in
18 the facility?
19 MR. BRAYTON: It's based on the unit type.
20 It's not necessarily based on how many cars that
21 may or not be in a unit.
22 So it's an industry standard that's based on
23 over 5500 studies that have been done across the
24 country. And that's the average rate that -- for a

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1 number of actual trips generated by a facility of

2 this type.
3 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Because one of the
4 concerns that we have, at least I have, I will
5 speak for myself at this point, is that Scituate --
6 this project is not on the RIPTA or the public
7 transportation bus line. You will very likely have
8 many cars. It's unlikely that where you have
9 two-persons living in a unit that you will only
10 have one car representing those people.
11 Because if you have two working people, how
12 are they going to get to work if there's no public
13 transportation? So that is one of the concerns as
14 it relates to the parking.
15 But I think that also that will skew some of
16 your traditional traffic projections and that's
17 where I'm trying to get at from our standpoint.
18 MR. BRAYTON: At most of the locations
19 where these sites are for the traffic counter to
20 come up with these rates, are actually in
21 suburban-type locations, which I think is very
22 similar to this location.
23 If you have an urban location, you actually
24 will have fewer trips because you may have people

108
1 who don't have cars at all. They live in say

2 Boston or Providence, they might not have a car at
3 all. They might be able to get around, like you
4 said, they have access to public transportation.
5 So most of the sites that are counted are
6 actually in locations such as this.
7 MR. COSTAKOS: So how many trips are on
8 the road now? How many trips are on Main Street
9 now at those hours?
10 MR. BRAYTON: So on Main Street there are
11 approximately -- this is on Main Street, 116. At
12 a.m peak hours, there's 874 trips.
13 MR. COSTAKOS: Okay.
14 MR. BRAYTON: And the p.m. peak hour there
15 are 1049 trips.
16 MR. COSTAKOS: Which direction --
17 MR. BRAYTON: That's both directions.
18 MR. COSTAKOS: How about on Main Street
19 going to --
20 MR. BRAYTON: 115?
21 MR. COSTAKOS: Yeah.
22 MR. BRAYTON: So in the morning peak hours
23 it's 461 vehicles. And the p.m. peak hours it's
24 532.

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1 MR. COSTAKOS: So the peak -- the trips

2 will add 98 in the morning?
3 MR. BRAYTON: Yes.
4 MR. COSTAKOS: And how many in the
5 evening?
6 MR. BRAYTON: 124.
7 MR. COSTAKOS: What's your threshold for
8 significant impact?
9 MR. BRAYTON: It depends on the actual
10 capacity analysis done. So we have, there's the
11 highway capacity manual.
12 MR. COSTAKOS: What's the maximum capacity
13 of these roads?
14 MR. BRAYTON: It depends on the type of
15 facility. So it's not a pure number. It kind of
16 depends if they are turning left or turning right.
17 So it's hard to say what the number is but....
18 MR. COSTAKOS: Ballpark?
19 MR. BRAYTON: Off the top, I couldn't give
20 a specific number.
21 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Any other questions?
22 MR. GADDES: Just as a general question:
23 What is the percent increase from current to
24 projected?

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1 MR. BRAYTON: What's that?

2 MR. GADDES: Percent increase? So if
3 you're -- are you adding 50 percent more traffic,
4 10 percent, 1 percent?
5 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: It's like 10 percent.
6 MR. BRAYTON: Well, I probably couldn't --
7 off the top of my head it looks like 98 trips with
8 874, so that's a little more than 10 percent.
9 MR. COSTAKOS: A little more than 10
10 percent. Both ways? Well, both a.m and p.m.?
11 MR. BRAYTON: And p.m. is actually 124
12 versus 1049, so pretty similar, yes.
13 MR. COSTAKOS: So projected approximately
14 a 10 percent increase in traffic?
15 MR. BRAYTON: Right.
16 MR. GADDES: Well, that would be a 50
17 percent increase on 115 depending on what
18 percentage goes down 115.
19 MR. BRAYTON: Right. Actually, most of
20 the traffic -- the majority of the traffic
21 continues to the north on North Road and 116.
22 There is more traffic than 115.
23 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yes, there is.
24 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: North and south.

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1 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yeah.

2 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Any further questions?
3 Thank you, sir. Ma'am?
4 MS. DENYSE: Joan DeNyse.
5 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: How do you say your
6 last name?
7 MS. DENYSE: DeNyse, D-E, capital N-Y-S-E.
9 MS. DENYS: Actually, when I read the
10 e-mail I thought this was a typographical error
11 that they were going to put 193 houses or units in
12 that small area.
13 The septic system may have been approved by
14 DEM and I think that this developer has painted a
15 very beautiful picture using the dilapidated mill
16 as a canvass and having a multitude of people
17 covering the colors with pre-approvals for a phase
18 that is crucial, like the septic system.
19 I don't know if you've ever ridden up Route
20 101 and you looked at the Scituate Reservoir on
21 both sides of 101 and you notice the influx of
22 weeds, the overgrowth of lily pads and weeds in the
23 reservoir. I don't know if anyone has given any
24 thought as to why there has been such a weed

112
1 explosion.
2 It's because the tributaries that feed into
3 that area of the reservoir go through areas that
4 have been over-populated in the last 15, 20 years.
5 And even though DEM has given the OK for those
6 septic systems, there's a leaching of nitrogen into
7 the tributaries that feed the reservoir and that
8 nitrogen makes the weeds grow rapidly.
9 So I'm looking at this septic system and I am
10 wondering, what's going to happen? Is there a
11 laundry facility for this building? People are
12 going to want to do their clothing. They may get
13 little portable washing machines to put in their
14 apartments. Is that leach field going to
15 accommodate something like the laundry?
16 I always thought that variances were for the
17 exceptions and under hardship. For instance, if I
18 had a small lot like we have in the little villages
19 of Scituate and my septic system died and some
20 still had cesspools and they needed to put in a
21 septic system and there might not have been enough
22 of a setback or there may not have been enough
23 square footage to the lot, they will allow a
24 variance to put that leach field in so that person

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1 could still enjoy his home.

2 To give these variances in such an extensive
3 amount; to setbacks, height of buildings, amount of
4 buildings per square foot, to me is just
5 unbelievable that this is being allowed.
6 (APPLAUSE)
7 MS. DENYSE: In order words, there is no
8 reason to have zoning because you can get around
9 the zoning.
10 (APPLAUSE)
11 MS. DENYSE: Now, I don't live in Hope. I
12 life in North Scituate and our little lost cousins
13 down in Hope have had enough to endure. I don't
14 think they need this kind of explosion of
15 population in their area.
16 (APPLAUSE)
17 MS. DENYSE: I think a better use for this
18 would be housing for the elderly.
19 (APPLAUSE)
20 MS. DENYSE: Perhaps an assisted living.
21 Anything but an over-explosion of people coming in,
22 an influx that we really can't handle, traffic
23 wise, school wise, population wise, pollution wise.
24 (APPLAUSE)

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1 MS. DENYSE: We just can't handle it.

2 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Thank you for your
3 comments.
4 MS. DENYSE: You're welcome.
5 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I don't have a
6 specific answer for you. I can tell you that
7 zoning -- we have guidelines that we have to live
8 by and we are legally bound to when considering any
9 variance that we are offering.
10 And those standards are all -- will be
11 evaluated as we are going through each step of
12 these. That's why we are asking for the public's
13 comment at this point, so we can have all the
14 information before us.
15 (INAUDIBLE)
16 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Mr. Morin, would you
17 address her concerns as it relates to the washing
18 machines and the nitrates and the like?
19 MR. MORIN: Yeah. In terms of the washing
20 machines, the RI DEM regulations are based -- there
21 based on bedrooms. So if you have a three bedroom
22 house, presuming you have a laundry room, three
23 bedrooms, the design flow that comes out of that is
24 150 gallons per bedroom. That includes showers.

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1 That includes washing machines. Includes toilets.

2 Includes sinks. Included all of those things.
3 Same here. It's part of that equation of
4 waste water, 150 gallons per bedroom would
5 accommodate all of the same things in an apartment
6 setting.
7 We are not proposing a public laundry,
8 laundromat or anything like that as part of this
9 certainly. So that would be a whole different
10 design, so.
11 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Okay. Thank you.
12 MR. DURFEE: As far as the nitrates, the
13 nitrogen or phosphates?
14 MR. MORIN: Right. This isn't in a, I
15 guess, a designated -- it's not in the watershed.
16 It's downstream from the reservoir. It's not in a
17 special area management plan like coastal ponds or
18 metro bay or anything like that.
19 Obviously this gets to the bay obviously but
20 -- you know, we initially offered -- we were going
21 to treat the waste water here to a higher standard.
22 We are asking for variances. All of those things
23 factor into that.
24 So we -- and the standard that was designed by

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1 DEM was to get it down to 10 milligrams per litters

2 for nitrogen. That was the designed point that we
3 were asked to meet.
4 It was discussed at one of the first meetings
5 with DEM over a year and a half ago. So that drove
6 us to design -- what we did to get to that point.
7 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Do you have any
8 projection as to what a traditional cesspool would
9 -- in terms of the nitrogen that would leach from
10 that?
11 MR. MORIN: Yeah. I mean, I guess -- a
12 conventional leach field wouldn't get near 10
13 without adding on technology and treatment
14 processes. It doesn't get anywhere near 10. It's
15 probably 30 plus as far as nitrogen.
16 A cesspool would be even less. You really
17 have no treatment going on. There's no septic tank
18 to at least get some of the waste out at the septic
19 tank stage. Cesspools don't have that, so.
20 I don't recall the numbers on the cesspool but
21 it's certainly higher than the others.
22 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Any other questions.
23 Thank you. Yes, ma'am?
24 MS. ALBRO: Hello. I'm Kelly Albro,

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1 A-L-B-R-O. Like Al, he's my bro.

3 MS. ALBRO: I've always lived on Hope
4 Furnace Road. That's the one that goes off the top
5 there. (INDICATING) And on a positive note, this
6 is a really gorgeous building. You don't see a lot
7 of stone mills around. So I'm interested in
8 hearing the ideas of preserving it. Keeping in
9 mind that the day that it falls down, we could be
10 putting anything in that place and we don't know
11 what someone is going to propose next time.
12 Of course we still have questions about this
13 current proposal. I read there were 193 apartment
14 units. Is that the intent, that they will always
15 be apartments versus an owned condo situation? My
16 question comes from the assumption that owners
17 would have more of an investment in a community
18 than renters.
19 (APPLAUSE)
20 MR. SHEKARCHI: They plan on being
21 apartments and if we are successful at Rhode Island
22 housing, there will be a 30-year requirement that
23 they remain affordable apartments.
24 MS. ALBRO: The next -- can I? I have a

118
1 little list. The -- I think we are calling them

2 building 14 and 15, those are going to be the new
3 structures?
4 MR. SHEKARCHI: Yes.
5 MS. ALBRO: There was mention of
6 standpipes in them and parking in the bottom and I
7 was just curious what the other necessity is in
8 creating new buildings and that would kind of tie
9 into how many units go in the new buildings versus
10 the existing buildings?
11 MR. SHEKARCHI: I can say this: I am not
12 a construction guy. I don't know what the
13 necessities are. I will tell the reason those were
14 put -- were mentioned, highlighted in our
15 presentation was because they were the latest, the
16 greatest, the best technology, the stuff that
17 preserves the pressure for fire safety and building
18 code.
19 The number of 193, which is approximately 52
20 single, you know, 1 bedroom and the rest 2 bedroom
21 is driven by the economics of this building. I
22 don't know if anyone has, you know, driven by or
23 seen it recently. It's in great disrepair. You
24 heard the testimony.

119
1 The reason we are going to Rhode Island

2 Housing is for the tax credits. This is -- the
3 septic system that everyone talks about is state of
4 the art. It's the best system. It's very, very,
5 very expensive to design, install and ultimately we
6 talked about the cost of maintaining it.
7 So it's just a matter of economics to drive
8 this -- to become viable, as you stated earlier, I
9 want to preserve this beautiful building and the
10 stone. Well, it's expensive to do that today.
11 Labor costs are going up. Raw materials are going
12 up. So we are at a point where -- we are close to
13 a point where if we can't get these units, we can't
14 get these designs we propose, it just doesn't
15 become economically feasible. Not just for my
16 client, for anybody.
17 Nobody -- nobody in this room wants to build
18 something to lose money. Nobody wants to build --
19 so it has to be a balance and it has to be fair
20 and, you know, be responsible and build something
21 nice that people want to live there and that people
22 can park their cars and people can go in and out
23 and people can do their laundry and flush the
24 toilets. So it has to work for everybody.

120
1 We're not going to design and spend -- my

2 client has spent to date over 1 million dollars, to
3 date on just the engineering, architectural,
4 traffic studies, legal fees. All the fees that go
5 along with it. Application fees. And he continues
6 -- but at some point, you look at this project
7 there's just no return. It just doesn't become
8 feasible and then I don't know what happens.
9 It's in a receivership right now. It was a
10 factory mill. There was someone else who tried to
11 do -- it wasn't successful. I don't know what
12 happens in the future.
13 I didn't talk -- it's not part of this Board's
14 criteria -- there's a lot of economic benefits to
15 the project. You know, the schools are
16 approximately at 58 capacity. So if it puts a few
17 kids in the school system, that's actually good to
18 keep the schools viable.
19 But this creates about 400 jobs, construction
20 jobs to build that, to put people to work. And
21 hopefully as the project goes forward, it will
22 increase tax revenue to the town substantially.
23 And if you look just strictly on the tax
24 perspective, they will prefer one and two bedroom

121
1 units, because they don't generate a lot of kids in

2 the school system and they pay a significant amount
3 of taxes.
4 And because we are going to have state of the
5 art fire suppression, it -- the cost on the
6 infrastructure for the town is minimal in terms of
7 the return it gets.
8 So these are the things that you have to
9 weigh. And this is why we think, just only our
10 opinion, and yes we're bias because we are all part
11 of the team, we're all being paid, but this is
12 probably the highest best use for this property at
13 this time.
14 And the other alternative is the unknown two
15 or three or four years from now when this thing
16 will collapse on its own weight. The roofs will
17 come falling inside and then what happens and what
18 goes there?
19 I mean, I understand there's -- anytime -- I
20 do a lot of permitting work. There's always
21 apprehension. There's change. It's bad. It's
22 schools. It's septic systems. But what's the
23 alternative? Where are the other -- if you don't
24 develop this mill into housing, which economically

122
1 feasibly works today, what's the alternative? Are

2 we going to put a commercial use there that doesn't
3 generate any kids in the school system? Is it
4 going to make noise? Is it going to make odors?
5 Is it going to make something that's undesirable?
6 I don't know the answer to that. Are we going
7 to leave it alone? Is it going to stay this way
8 and ultimately somebody buys it and does something?
9 I don't know the answer to the future.
10 But I think this is a good project. It's
11 consistent -- that whole area around it is housing.
12 This is housing. It's not out of character. You
13 heard the comprehensive plan. So I think this is a
14 good project.
15 Am I bias, absolutely, yes. But I can also
16 look at this thing objectively and I wouldn't be
17 here supporting it if I didn't think it -- and
18 believe me, I do turn down work because I don't
19 believe in the project. This project is something
20 that I believe in. So I hope that helps you.
21 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Not really.
22 MS. ALBRO: Thank you for the information.
23 Two more questions: The land that's at the
24 perimeter along the water, is that something that

123
1 the owner will ever be able to build on in the

2 future?
3 MR. SHEKARCHI: No.
4 MS. ALBRO: Because it's nice having trees
5 there.
6 MR. SHEKARCHI: Nope.
7 MS. ALBRO: All right.
8 MR. SHEKARCHI: Because it's protected by
9 DEM. And even if it was not this builder, he
10 wouldn't do it, but even if it was somebody else in
11 the future, he would have to come back before all
12 these boards and commissions but DEM would never
13 allow it. It's protected by all kinds of setbacks
14 and regulations.
15 MS. ALBRO: Okay. My last question: On
16 the view here, is this block in the center what was
17 referenced as the building that's not involved?
18 MR. SHEKARCHI: I would have to get the
19 pointer because I don't know which building you're
20 talking about.
21 MS. ALBRO: So I don't know. I'm just
22 trying to figure out what that was. It's like a
23 strip not part of the property in question, right?
24 MR. SHEKARCHI: I believe so but let me

124
1 check with -- yes.

2 MS. ALBRO: So that's not part of your
3 project?
4 MR. SHEKARCHI: It's not part of our
5 project.
6 MS. ALBRO: I was just curious of what the
7 status of that was because it's right in the middle
8 of everything just, you know, to know.
9 MR. SHEKARCHI: I don't know the answer to
10 that question. It's is not part of this proposed
11 development.
12 MS. ALBRO: Right.
13 MR. SHEKARCHI: I don't represent the
14 owner. We don't know who the owner is.
15 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Did you understand?
16 Paramount -- that is not part of Paramount's
17 property.
18 MS. ALBRO: Right. I was curious -- do
19 you guys know what the status of that -- how that
20 gets impacted at all?
21 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: No.
22 MS. ALBRO: Okay. That's all.
23 MR. VENDITELLI: Brian Venditelli, 32
24 Brook Drive.

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1 THE COURT REPORTER: Can you spell the

2 last name?
3 MR. VENDITELLI: V-E-N-D-I-T-E-L-L-I. I'm
4 not against the project. I think --
6 MR. VENDITELLI: I'm not against the
7 project. I think in the right context it could be
8 beneficial.
9 The question I had was on the parking. You
10 have 193 units, okay, if you have a man and wife
11 living there, however, you have at least 200.
12 Those 200, if your have 193 units, plus visitors
13 and everything like that. So I know you're talking
14 about 200 plus parking spots.
15 Where are the other people going to park? Are
16 we going to have cars up and down Main Street
17 parking on the side of the road causing safety
18 issues?
19 Also, as far as the storm water runoff. You
20 said the parking area in the grey between the
21 buildings, you're going to go with, I refer to it
22 as popcorn asphalt to absorb the water runoff.
23 Now, in the winter, when you have snow and you
24 pile it in piles, it is not going to absorb. It's

126
1 going to be pushed aside. Is that all taken into

2 consideration as far as the impact on the wetlands?
3 MR. SHEKARCHI: The answer is yes. I'll
4 provide Nicole. She'll answer. The total number
5 of parking would be around 263, 273 parking spaces.
6 And Nicole will answer that question, but yes,
7 that will absorb just like any other -- like if the
8 -- we had a really cold stretch in the middle of
9 January and it was frozen, a lawn, it absorbs the
10 same way. If it's frozen, it's frozen, it doesn't
11 absorb but if you want, I can provide the engineer
12 to answer that question. She's much more
13 knowledgeable than I am.
14 MS. REILLY: So regarding the drainage, we
15 actually put in place an overflow or emergency
16 system. So porous pavement or popcorn doesn't
17 necessarily require a series of catch basins
18 because it would essentially not need that since it
19 is infiltrating into the ground.
20 But we are actually proposing a series of
21 catch basins should something fail or should a
22 winter condition be an issue and that was part of
23 our DEM permit.
24 So we have a backup to the approved system as

127
1 well.
2 MR. VENDITELLI: Now, as far as the
3 parking, you're saying about 260 spots. One
4 hundred and ninety three, two cars per resident,
5 you're still close to 400 parking spots plus
6 visitors.
7 (APPLAUSE)
8 MR. VENDITELLI: I mean, I'm not college
9 educated but the math doesn't add up.
10 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: The zoning
11 requirement, just for information sake, is two cars
12 per space. And what they are asking -- originally
13 we were asking for a variance where they were
14 submitting 227 spaces. At which the original
15 application would have been 1.17, I believe, cars
16 or parking spaces per unit.
17 And now, they have increased that, if I didn't
18 just lose my spot but -- I believe it's 1.47. And
19 there is still, I think, opportunity from what
20 they've explained where they can design some more
21 features into it.
22 This Board is definitely very concerned about
23 the parking and the impact of what that will have
24 on your community. Because one of the concerns

128
1 that we -- when we make a decision, it's an impact

2 that this has on the existing community.
3 And my vision right now is that if we had gone
4 with and approved the variance at the 1.17 cars per
5 unit and realistically expecting that we are going
6 to have something in the 300 range for cars, that
7 would mean that your Mill Street, residence of Mill
8 Street would have a parking lot in front of your
9 homes.
10 And that -- I'm speaking for myself now, would
11 not be something that I would think is fair to you.
12 And that's one of the things that we as a Zoning
13 Board have to recognize when we are granting this.
14 So please don't take anything that you're
15 hearing as being -- we're going to rubber stamp it.
16 There are concerns that we will be discussing as --
17 when we are voting on the individual variances.
18 But you are very legitimate in your concerns.
19 And most of your concerns are absolutely great,
20 legitimate and we are taking those into
21 consideration. Please believe me on that.
22 MR. VENDITELLI: And we appreciate it. We
23 are all just voicing our concerns.
24 The only other question I have is the height

129
1 of the buildings. Is there a zoning statute

2 limiting the height in that area? It kind of seems
3 a little out of place or do we already have a
4 zoning change to allow it?
5 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: There was approval
6 before but it did not address the actual height of
7 the building in the zoning that was granted in the
8 previous years. However, bare in mind that was a
9 zoning variance that was allowed and failed to be
10 acted on within one year. So that, that goes back.
11 The building itself, the front building, the
12 -- if you're looking at the projections, from -- if
13 you're looking at the 116 North Road, over the
14 building, the topographical decline, if you will,
15 or the slope of the land should be keeping that at
16 basically the same height. And that is, I believe,
17 their goal in that aspect of the design.
18 So that as Chief John Robinson had indicted,
19 he's not -- his concern is in terms of the interior
20 ability for fire fighting. He is not looking at
21 that building from the standpoint of being able to
22 have to use ladders to get to extinguish the fire.
23 The current, the modern fire protection
24 technights (SIC) -- techniques, if I could spit

130
1 that out, will help to control that aspect of it.

2 MR. VENDITELLI: So I wasn't concerned
3 really about -- as far as fire. I was looking as
4 far as being part of the village overlay that it
5 fit into it.
6 But on the subject of fire, being that we are
7 100 percent volunteer fire department -- I don't
8 know if the Chief is here to touch on it. Do we
9 have the manpower to address a fire at that -- in
10 case there is, you know, any kind of big problem?
11 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: The Chief is right
12 behind you.
13 FIRE CHIEF ROBINSON: Well, you're
14 correct. It's a 100 percent volunteer fire
15 fighting force. We have an active crew of almost
16 44 people. We've been supporting the Village for
17 years.
18 We've already had a number of fires in this
19 structure over the years. All of which we have
20 been able to suppress even when it was in a much
21 more hazardous state.
22 We have also created pre-plans for this
23 structure as it sits now and as it has sat in the
24 past 10 to 15 years. So those concerns are things

131
1 we do on a regular basis. That's part of our

2 service to the community.
3 Just wanted to touch upon another component of
4 that. You mentioned about -- I think you mentioned
5 about the ladder trucks and stuff. We don't have
6 them in the Village of Hope. But there are five
7 ladder companies within 7 miles of us. Some as
8 close as 3.4 miles that we use on a regular basis
9 for our daily firefighting operations.
10 So we are not s full-time department. That
11 goes for any residential structure. And I'm not
12 here for a pro or a con to this. Just -- numbers
13 are what they are. These structures are inherently
14 safer than residential dwellings because of the
15 sprinkler systems. Open mill complexes with wide
16 areas, wide spaces aren't necessarily that, but
17 those that are compartmentalized with living units
18 and that are fully sprinklered are -- but I hope
19 that answered your question.
20 MR. VENDITELLI: Thank you, Chief.
22 MS. KELLY: Karen Kelly, 36 Ben Brown Ave.
24 MS. KELLY: I'd like to refer you to the

132
1 town's website that describes Scituate as and I

2 quote, "A tranquil rural environment of unspoiled
3 forests and pristine springs and farms."
4 The zoning ordinances are in place to protect
5 our town, our land, our rivers and our very way of
6 life and should not be easily set aside. The
7 project as proposed will negatively impact Scituate
8 especially Hope and her (SIC) residents.
9 With additional cars on our roads. Hope
10 Furnace Road will no longer be a quiet country road
11 that it is. And Howard Ave. will share the same
12 fame.
13 There will be an increased expense and demands
14 on our police department, our schools, our roads
15 and our fire departments. With our federal
16 government slashing both funding and regulations
17 for the protection of waterways, this is not the
18 time to be slack but rather we now need to be more
19 vigilant in protecting our own rivers.
20 (APPLAUSE)
21 MS. KELLY: Not only is the sewage an
22 issue but the increased litter and debris in and
23 around our river will also pose a real problem.
24 Not to mention the gas and oil and other fluids

133
1 from the number of cars parking so close to the

2 river.
3 If this project was to be proposed in
4 Scituate, I can guarantee it never would have
5 gotten to this spot but because it's Hope, it's
6 okay, you say.
7 (APPLAUSE)
8 MS. KELLY: I'd just like to remind you
9 that Hope is part of Scituate and not a poor
10 relation. All of this change in loss so a few
11 people can make a little more money. Keep all of
12 Scituate rural and may our tranquil environment and
13 pristine streams forever remain.
14 (APPLAUSE)
15 MS. DESJARLAIS: It's hard to follow that.
16 I'm Lindsay DesJarlais. It's D-E-S-J-A-R-L-A-I-S.
17 I live on 17 Spruce in Hope.
19 MS. DESJARLAIS: I don't know if this is
20 the place or if you looked at it yet but I hear a
21 lot about the septic and the discharge. But I was
22 just wondering about the actual water supply.
23 I know pretty much all of us are on wells and
24 you talk about how it will cost a lot of money to

134
1 have -- to bring in a septic system and you tie it

2 into the sewer. I understand that totally and
3 completely. I was just wondering if we are
4 planning on tying into a water line or if you plan
5 on using the wells? I feel like with the fire
6 suppression system and the amount of houses, that
7 would just -- maybe have a negative impact on the
8 residents currently residing there.
9 MR. SHEKARCHI: If it is okay to answer,
10 Mr. Chairman? We have approval from Kent County
11 Water Authority to tie in. There's actually two
12 services available, a high service and a low
13 service.
14 So there's more than adequate fire pressure
15 and water pressure in the area.
16 MS. DESJARLAIS: So you will be tying into
17 water --
18 MR. SHEKARCHI: Yeah.
19 MS. DESJARLAIS: You won't be using the
20 well?
21 MR. SHEKARCHI: We will not be touching
22 any wells in Hope.
23 MS. DESJARLAIS: So we shouldn't actually
24 see an impact on our wells at all, right?

135
1 MR. SHEKARCHI: None whatsoever. Not from

2 this project.
3 MS. DESJARLAIS: Cool, thanks.
4 MR. MANCINO: Hi. My name is John
5 Mancino. I'm a resident of Hope. I live off
6 Howard.
7 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: How do you spell your
8 last name?
9 MR. MANCINO: M-A-N-C-I-N-O.
11 MR. MANCINO: My question ties to her
12 question. Like I said, I'm a resident of Hope and
13 I live in the Eagle Glen section and we have a
14 pumping station because we are at the tail end of
15 the water supply for the Kent water system.
16 And I wondered, has there been any studies or
17 conversations if that would impact our water
18 pressure at all?
19 MR. SHEKARCHI: I can tell you that we
20 provided not one but two applications to Kent
21 County Water. They have reviewed them and I
22 believe they approved even this year's; am I
23 correct?

136
1 MR. SHEKARCHI: And we also -- Kent County

2 also, in addition to having us supply an
3 application, they wanted monitoring done by a third
4 party, which we did. And a water model, which
5 means that they look at all of the pressure of what
6 we use and how it will affect everybody and
7 everything came back fine and they gave us two
8 approvals.
9 So I don't think you are going to see any
10 impact at all. It's not just me saying it. That's
11 Kent County Water based on our analysis, their
12 analysis and a third-party's analysis.
13 MR. MANCINO: Okay. Thank you. I have
14 one more question. Has there been any studies on
15 how this will impact the crime rate or the property
16 value in the area?
17 (APPLAUSE)
18 MR. SHEKARCHI: I don't know how to answer
19 that. But, no, we haven't done any studies for
20 crime rate. We think Hope's a nice area. We don't
21 necessarily think that this is going to be --
23 MR. SHEKARCHI: -- a detriment to that at
24 all. I don't feel it's going to add to the crime

137
1 at all. And it's typically not -- respectfully

2 it's not something for this Board to consider when
3 you look at a project.
4 MR. MARCINO: That's true. I just wanted
5 to put the question out there.
6 MR. SHEKARCHI: I'm sure. Thank you.
7 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Yes, she was next.
8 MS. MOORE: Hi. My name is Mary Morse. I
9 live at 404 North Road. Right smack in the middle
10 of Hope Village.
11 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Excuse me, how do you
12 spell your last name?
13 MS. MORSE: Morse like the code.
15 MS. MORSE: M-O-R-S-E.
17 MS. MORSE: I'd like to address three of
18 the items sent on the agenda. The first is Item E,
19 okay, regarding the parking spaces, which leads to
20 the discussion of the traffic impact.
21 And I know from -- I've lived at my home since
22 1986 and I can speak anecdotally to the impact of
23 development on traffic just by how long it takes me
24 to get out of my driveway.

138
1 With the development, for example, in

2 Coventry, of Hunters Crossing, development of Hope
3 Furnace Road, Hope Village becomes a cut through
4 for people trying to access 295 and Route 37.
5 And I believe the gentleman with the traffic
6 study said most of the impact will be up on North
7 Road. There's a school there right by my home.
8 And that's in peak commuter morning time. So I
9 don't know if the traffic study that you did
10 included the impact when there is a school present.
11 There's a lot of people in the morning traveling
12 North Road.
13 The second item that I would like to address
14 is that I heard tonight discussion of residents --
15 a residential construction project favorably
16 impacting the finance of the town. I was
17 privileged to attend the Conservation Commission's
18 annual meeting held recently and there was a very
19 knowledge gentleman, Chris Modisette who gave a
20 presentation on different types of property and the
21 impact on taxes.
22 So I'm working from memory and I recall what
23 he said is: Residential property uses more money
24 in town services than they generate by their taxes.

139
1 So what I am hearing tonight, when you're

2 talking about a residential complex positively
3 contributing to the finances of the town of
4 Scituate, I'm not so sure based on what this
5 gentleman presented. So perhaps the Counsel or the
6 Zoning Board may want to follow-up with him.
7 And finally, item D, I brought this up -- I
8 did attend the Hope Village Overlay Committee
9 meeting that was held at the Hope Library. And Mr.
10 Charland you opened the meeting today by saying
11 that mill is a focal point in the Village of Hope
12 and it most certainly is.
13 And I do want to see something positive done
14 with this property. We need it. We need it in the
15 Village of Hope. I'm hoping for maybe compromise
16 or negotiation with the developer at this point.
17 But all of the requests for variances seem to
18 be focusing on the two new construction buildings
19 on the back of the property. And as said, I
20 brought this up at a meeting, it's more esthetic --
21 it is an historic property and by making those back
22 two buildings equal, if not even a little bit
23 higher visually, to the main building and if you
24 put that slide back up, you can see, there is no

140
1 focal point. It's a horizon line and that's what

2 you're -- right there. (INDICATING) That's what
3 you go to. You can see the new building behind the
4 sawtooth. That's where your eye goes. So you kind
5 of lose the sawtooth effect and it just would be
6 really nice to have something that sets back, Hope
7 Mill the original structure apart so it is
8 recognized for the historic entity that it is.
9 Thank you very much.
10 (APPLAUSE)
11 MR. CAPECE: I'm Richard Capece, 111 Eagle
12 Drive, Hope, Rhode Island.
13 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Spell your last name
14 for her, the steno.
15 MR. CAPECE: C-A-P-E-C-E.
17 MR. CAPECE: I just wanted to let you guys
18 know. I do a lot of business with apartment
19 complexes all over New England. Especially in
20 Rhode Island. That's my territory that I cover. I
21 cover three apartment complexes in the vicinity,
22 Royal Mills, Harris Mills and Anthony Mill. I'm in
23 there everyday.
24 I deal with property managers, maintenance men

141
1 and owners. And I just want to let the Board know

2 that they have some serious problems in those
3 apartment complexes. All their units are even less
4 than what -- what we're proposing in Hope and they
5 have problems from suicides, murders.
6 It just goes on and on. Drug dealing and --
7 just to let you know, if that happens to go into
8 our town, we are going to have the same problem.
9 Royal Mills, Harris and Anthony are having
10 huge problems and that's within our 5 to 10 mile
11 radius. So do you want that in your town? I
12 don't. Just wanted to give you guys that
13 information.
14 (APPLAUSE)
15 MR. MARTIN: My name is Brian Martin.
17 MR. MARTIN: I lived in Scituate --
18 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Brian, your address,
19 please.
20 MR. MARTIN: 75 Main Street in Hope. I've
21 lived in Scituate all my life. I stand here today
22 as a neighbor, a father and a Scituate resident
23 whose family would be adversely affected by this
24 development.

142
1 Our town has a well-earned reputation as a

2 family-friendly town. The prospective building of
3 this atrocity will severely detract from that image
4 due to the unwieldy nature of this development.
5 The very fact that so many landscape-altering
6 variances would have to be established in order to
7 circumvent our current building standards tells a
8 tail of perverting our lifestyle. To foolishly
9 build this monstrosity speaks to the cheapening of
10 what has been a long and sacred preservation of our
11 picturesque history.
12 Practically speaking, there are detrimental
13 effects that must be calculated. A variance is
14 needed to reduce the parking spaces required for a
15 development of this kind and on-street parking is
16 an unsafe alternative in that area and a dense lot
17 format breeds accidents.
18 A variance is needed to allow waste water
19 close to a water body, which would potentially have
20 dire environmental effects as one woman pointed
21 out.
22 Most distressingly a special use permit is
23 needed so a 193 unit development can jam into the
24 32 acre lot thus creating the schematic for an

143
1 urban-style subsidized housing project in our

2 beautiful town.
3 (APPLAUSE)
4 MR. MARTIN: This development, if it comes
5 to fruition, will be a stain on our town. We will
6 require more police expenses, more education
7 expenses, more confusion and complication on 116,
8 115, Mill Street and greater burden on taxpayers.
9 This development only benefits a few
10 interested parties and will ultimately be a blotch
11 on our landscape. I implore you to stop now and
12 demand that the variances be voted on at a
13 town-wide referendum. Thank you for your time.
14 (APPLAUSE)
15 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I'm going to call on
16 one last person to speak tonight, tonight and then
17 I'm going to suspend. We are not supposed to keep
18 the meetings going until after 10 in the evening.
19 I'm sorry. That's one of our --
20 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Are we voting tonight?
21 That's what I want to know. Nobody says anything
22 about that.
23 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: At this point, we have
24 to -- the Board --

144
1 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Is this a done deal? We

2 can't ask questions because they had four hours to
3 speak.
4 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I am not eliminating
5 the public speaking --
6 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Of course, we have to
7 continue sweating here. I mean, you guys can't
8 even pay for air-conditioning, Jesus.
9 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: All right. Calm down.
10 Calm down.
11 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: What do you mean calm
12 down. Our legislator is here and he's not saying
13 anything about it.
14 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Who's is that? Not me.
15 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Like I said, I will
16 take one more speaker before this --
17 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: There you go, good job.
18 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Sir.
19 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: He was next.
20 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: I know he was next.
21 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: This is bullshit.
22 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Okay. He needs to be
23 heard.
24 MR. BERGEY: I just want to make a quick

145
1 point. Hans Bergey from the Village.

2 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Excuse me. Your name,
3 please.
4 MR. BERGEY: Hans Bergey.
5 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Can you spell your
6 last name for the stenographer.
7 MR. BERGEY: B-E-R-G-E-Y.
9 MR. BERGEY: I just want to make a point.
10 I have a hearing problem and I didn't hear much of
11 what was said up here or even over the mikes.
12 But if you look at that photograph that water
13 system that is coming down is north branch of the
14 Pawtuxet River and that is supported by or absorbs
15 water from 92.8 plus square miles. And we really
16 haven't had a major storm or hurricane event that
17 has provided a lot of water, like 8 to 10 inches at
18 one shot.
19 And if the reservoir is fairly full, there is
20 going to be volume of water coming down that river
21 that's going to really cause a problem with this
22 development. I don't know if that has come up
23 earlier but it's a point that should be made and
24 that's all I have to say.

146
1 (APPLAUSE)
2 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Last one, I'm sorry.
3 MS. QUINDAZZI: Bernadette Quindazzi, 125
4 Franklin Road. That's Q-U-I-N-D-A-Z-Z-I. And I
5 swear to tell the truth. I have a lot of concerns
6 with this. Parking is insufficient granted that
7 there are no buses. Sewer water treatment can be a
8 problem. Traffic, I don't care what the gentleman
9 said, I don't believe it.
10 (APPLAUSE)
11 MS. QUINDAZZI: And the schools do have
12 room but to have those rooms filled will require
13 more teachers. And it is a large population to put
14 in a very small tranquil village of Hope.
15 So with that -- and I think there are too many
16 variances. When you want one variance, all right,
17 fine, two. This is ridiculous. Thank you very
18 much.
19 (APPLAUSE)
20 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Thank you everybody
21 for your patience this evening. It will be posted
22 again as to when -- we do not have a specific date
23 set for the following meeting for this.
24 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)

147
1 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Just so you're aware,

2 we have not adjourned the meeting at this point.
3 We are trying to establish if we can establish the
4 date of the meeting right now versus to continue
5 this.
6 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)
7 MR. GADDES: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to
8 make a motion that we continue this hearing to
9 Tuesday the 29th of August at 7:00 at this
10 location.
11 MR. DURFEE: Second.
12 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Motion has been made
13 and seconded. That will continue this meeting on
14 Tuesday, the 29th of August at 7:00 p.m.
15 All those in favor signify by saying aye.
16 (BOARD VOTES)
17 CHAIRMAN CHARLAND: Any opposed? Motion
18 carries. We will continue the meeting on Tuesday
19 the 29th at 7 p.m. Thank you for your time and
20 patience.
21 (PROCEEDING CLOSED AT 10:19 P.M.)
22
23
24

Scituate RI - Zoning Board Hearing On Hope Mill Project - 08 01 2017

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Scituate RI - Zoning Board Hearing On Hope Mill Project - 08 01 2017

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1

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 (PROCEEDING COMMENCED 7:11 P.M.)

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 variances have already been giving at prior

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 tape recorded normally and tonight we are being --

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 ask your questions of me particularly. I will

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 on the Zoning Board at this time. If we don't have

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 The agenda for tonight's meeting: Hearing on

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 variance to have less than the required lot size

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 consisting of approximately 32.22 acres.

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 All the agenda, the second agenda was -- one

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 The owners, we have an additional document

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 The size of the proposed building is the

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 and special use permit requests, please see the

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 Lot in the town of Scituate is owned currently by

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 knowledge. It includes a summary of qualifications

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 Kent County Water Authority provided a

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 For the record --

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 architect expert. I have Jacob Garner, the fire

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 But I just want to do a broad overview. So

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 this can happen. This will provide the need for

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 MS. REILLY: Good evening.

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 MR. SHEKARCHI: The green cards and then

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 submitted summarizes that unless you would like to

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 here. (INDICATING) I do have Kevin Morin also

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 Just walking through the site, access off of

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 Obviously none of that exists today because

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 summarized. We do have 227 parking spaces on the

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 As far as the phasing of building parking, I'm

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 that the 273?

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

1 MR. RUGGIERO: And identify himself for

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139

C. Dion Court Reporting (401) 397-6139