Professional Documents
Culture Documents
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MR. BtJGt!OSI
APPEARANCES:
For the People: VINCENT T. BUGLIOSI,
DONALD A. MUSICH,
STEPHEN RUSSELL KAY,
DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS
For Deft. Manson: I. A. KANAREK, Esq.
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For Deft. Atkins: DAYE SHINN, Esq ..
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For Deft. Van Houten:
MAXWELL KEITH Es~.
For Deft. Krenwinkel: PAUL FITZGERALD, Esq.
MURRAY MEHLMAN, CSR. ,
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PAGES 21637 to 21 , 812 Official Reporters
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VOLUME 171_ Thur.ad.a . Januar 1971 P es 21637 - 21812
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3 PEOPLE1 S WI!NBSS:
I 1{ DE X
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DIRECT CROSS RiDIR'.tCT RECROSS
4 . CR0l$_.,. ;Bernard 2i690 2172.7K
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9. E X. H I '.B I T S
11.o PEOPLE t s.: _ FOR I'.DENTIFICATlON l:N .EVIDENCE
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21637
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JO. gent:lemen?
,' 'l1 1-$,~ l}UGLlOSI,: Yes ..
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THE COUllTt J.)Q yO:$ want -to ll\ake those. .here .or irt
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With. the 'Jurt. p;ese~ti..
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. be.tte~. do -{t in the. pze$epc~- o1;, ,mY clt~n'e al,o. '.
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l think our case will take our or ftve days
. ~t the. v~ry fnO$"t. We are not going to put on th~ Shea
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mur~ at all, and we ~re cn~t;, t;6ing -:eo put on the: Hinman
16 mu.rde~ agtdnst Manso~, __ bothJ
. oi whi~ wpuld
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J,ul. KAY: Yes.
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s all that.
.6 llR. l3UGLIOSI: Let' me g1 ve th$ Court a copy
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_scope or.vh~ penalty hea~1ng.
.~4 .. :r 4911 rt know what they, int~nd' to do, but it
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sounds like certain thing$: aren t p~o.perly a-wn1ss,ibl..
26 during th,e pe!).alty hearing_ t:qa..t they it1tend t-o put on.
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But th1a. is ' , ...
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right l'low ..
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MR. XA.NARE~: . ouj ko:no-~, r d6. have a motion -to oont:J,;nuE
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ba1:1,a- on F.eople
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~vs.. C:rcrvedi,. on th, bas-11 the,t we should. be
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. r.~ . Bugl;tcis:ti as rtcently as ;yesterday- ana: t1)i;lay;
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othe:.t'- to- Ron:L Howa~d..
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. .. 04n -check ot\t and do what would b.$ hecess.ary in oonnec~ion
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16' doing aoltle wprk tor:1 th~ ti,'1a1, and Mr,. a~gl:toa1. saw li\e,. and
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'. tn~n he w.ertt te> hi$' oft:tce- and a-sk~cf m~ t.Q drop down 1;;,o Qi,$
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-ts oftice, a,nd he gave me. a ,tatement- ,attrt-bu.ted to M:r .. C~9we-;
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Emd th;t$ mo:rn:tng he_ ga-ve Ua the Roni Howa,rd statemont.
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- So'- I do i,take a .motion ta continue.
MR. SUINN;: join in tlie motion.
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MR. 'SH!NN-: :Will. you identity that dooum~nt -z What :1:1'
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- 5.,. ~ovembe~ 25th., 1969. And tp.e df!Jf'erts~ got. a copy ot this
-!i several months ago_
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With ~esp~ct to the Crowe incident, this Tnomaa
8 Wl;il_leman gave. us a statement .sevae:ral months ago, .anQ. that
9 .. has .peen 1-n our t-ubs down there, and you knew about 1:t . It.
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a.ntagoniatic-; I mean, he .1-ust didnt want to. g;Lv~
inI'orn1at;ton,
ltl.e- any
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2 agtt, _and l in~erviewe~ him. yesterday,and you have copies
3 of those ,:epo:rt.s ~
4 . But I ~,-111 say this: wallenian s ~eport on
5 tha~ shooting up on Franklin to.uie.vard is tno~e cOP1pl~te
6. : thM. -wh~t Crowe .sa'id; and yo'tl have had ace.es~ ~o that fo:;r:
1 several months.
I doh't think thitt is c.atchitlg you off guai:d,
9 t6u hav had d~cuments.
10 : - :MR,, SRINNi !,Xe yot,t sayin.i that this document y6u
lJ handed today dated January 27th, 1971~ this is what
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13 watered...dowrt version'?
l~ MR.. ij_UGLIOSI-: No, 1:hat is '!1ot tl).e watered-down
'ii;; . version~ tl:;lat ts- the complete, statement. right there-
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;made an J~i~Sion
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011; the Hinman .tll~ders-. and y~u have had
access to that statement fol" se'/e:ta! mpnths .. ,Not only
acce.s$, but y.~u were actually giv.en a copy 9f it.f
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s MR. SBitm: tlhat:. page?
6 MR. BUGLIOSI: ltd. .say tt'iat you shonld read between
7 .. _pages 1 ttt\tl 13 .or 14.. She talks a.bout Bobby .and stabbing
Ga;ry. Hin.nian, It is all. in there.
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1(3 MR.__ t{ANAREK; 'Yes~ your Honor..
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doq1-t-.think
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that the 1p.w ~ontemp.1at~-S.-- .
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and up
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$" KANARSK: l have been i.nside, too.
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' 2 MR. :BUGLIOS:C; You have been ins-:Lde. the tubs?
3' .THE' ,COURT: You c\1-d h~ve a copy of tbe tape ~eco:t-ded
4 intel'vi_1,:1w of aoni Howard, did1J 1 t yeti.~
I-JR. l{t~l:REK: Ye:S,, your Hanoi-.
'l;~ COURT: Okny.
1 '.MR. I<ANARCK~ But, you s.ec~ yo.to: Botior, the point
~ i$ --- let 1 s put :Lt this way .-.. penalty is $0 broad, without
having any particular:t.ty --
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IQ THE COUR'r: tet 1 s not get into that,.
.il -: The .point ;J.s that you knew about this particular
matte.r...
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I knew about it, andI learned it from ~bat
tape recorded interview that w~ cons:t.dered during'the
-cQu'rse of tbe trial in connectio_n tdth the B:ruton,.-:A,randa
problems ~e~arding Roni Howard~
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prpo.f by them., or some lti11<1 .-o.t), notice a1;1 tQ :in :what manne~
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. '' t they are goi-ng to px-oaead iso t_ha:t '!le ean ,p;i:epar~
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. :ro; '. . becaus~ the wide; w.1.d~, in;>Jtld_-:ts; th~re a.s/ !'.~I> as, penalty
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f,lR. r<ANARE:K: When you say nothing, your Honor, tlia.t. is: .
,lB' Wllc:\.t I am s-ay.ng ;ls.~ your Ji'.Qnor~ they ba~ .spoken i:,t
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Hinman and Shea .. ~ have been g~i~g ove~ the. Hinman case
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20 :,ami' the Sh&~ cas.e .. They said tbey may put it ih.
21 Now they sai they ave not putting it in.
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. Sf>, all the det~il-s, the wQrk, that I have done --
2~ THE COURT: M:r.. 0rowe' s n.ame has coine up tn this case ..
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, 24 be.tore:,. too~ and you. are aware o:r tha~ ~
. l5 MR~ l.Ali:Al:mKt tes; J: agreEJ~. But What I @ say.;Lng 1s ..
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. your HOnQr'.;; they are now telling US/,....:.. prev.iouslJ he did not .
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the motion ia. made . ?tn b$.d taith. ' -
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.,.,... .s: .MR . K.ANA~K: Iiiay I- aski ,WP.Y it is inade in bad: .t"a:L'bh?
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THE COURT:
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knewabo~t thes& ~hings, ~d
Y-Qtl' haYe laiOWll libOtit :them .for 1110nth~,..
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' .~Y:a :,ottt Hon.or
1'HE COURT: l
c;:ontinuanc~.
cUD. go;i.ng .to deny the ,action for a
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6 : the. penalty .phase'l .Do you have .an.y kind of an.-e,tim.ate?.
. 'l MR-. FITZGSR.t-'\LD: tte estimate about 12. uo 15 court
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'9 llR. BUGtlOSl: 'hat'$ three w~ek.s altuost.
10 .MR. FITZGE~Al,D:. tha~ a -tl;lree wee"ks, maybe less.
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l:t MR. ~ITH.: A.,;e you :t.ncludit;Ig all of -us? .
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l: qef~nds.nt:s, Wlheard of. Right down. the hallway they have
: :~ One 'COUl'lt Of murder I one defendant,,) ios ,qitnes-Se.S
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. . Ma. just. .sa;i.d; you we~e .8Qing to tal.(e
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o~e week to :put on a defense .and we aa1d ehx'ee weeks, and
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yo\.l just let this so to 1:i:.fe itl.p1:i~omnent, lfr. Bugli-osi~ ' I'
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l2R-. l<AY: Doos this have to on the record? ""
18 Mn. KANAREK:.
, 1 think the State- of Cal:t.forn:l.a h.as I
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gotten its _pound of flesh, and. hao totten its wh~tever ;ln I
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21 tllt!. COUllT~ .Anything further, eentlemen? .i
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(No resp~nae. )-
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Very '.well, al\l soon its t-ha.Y, a~e i-eady :L,:,. q:ourt.
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Do you intend
BUGLIOSt:
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.to -.ke ~-i:Qpening statement?
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l TB;E' COURT: You will be -ready t-o catl your ftist
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w:t.tness.
lncidenta.1ly., I do haw~. to recess early today .
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you a J]lonth ago
MR. .. J.(ANABEK:
kn~wn. in view of M,:. Bugl,tosis . -- .
,Que:ty as to whether they were completely
. .12~ . ye.8te1=day? .
113 . THE COURT t -that is .nQt the p0int" The point is you
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k~ew: abQUt M'r .. Crowe. and the incident; and the in:Jform.ation
was av.ai.labJ.e to you..,
1~- .: HR.. KANA:'R}::K-t That I s right, but -we :niade c;t1scov.ery as
..11 , to statements~ your Honor --
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-1s Tl$ cotm.T: t dot't't want tQ pr.along :l.t:;. ~- Katta'tek.
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1.9 Mlt. KANAREK: May I make this . >re.quest to the Oo"xt
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2i s GOUR'!: No --
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22 MR. 'KAllAREKJ 'this- is to -save time in court. a11,d not
_ma~e. obJe.ct:I.ons in f:ront 0 fhe j-UX'y.
I. would $sk youi aonor for a contintting. '
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1 :: . ,Qqtweighs any probative va.1u~ ~o.r the -~t>.alty phaae as '
far .as all of Mr.. Ctowe' s tes.timony and ~s fat: as a-11 ,
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(The tollowine; proce~d.ine.s were had in -open court
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ia not p~e&ent:)
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16 . The jury is not pre.s~nt. .
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l and adeq-t).atel:.r ap.praise .d or any mental ~or~d.ition that
; may have affpcted the corri:~iss.tcn o,f the c:rimez
''ld I v.m not u-drdtt!tnc on h0r behelf tu~ commis.s.:1.on
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11 , of any otf~nses ! but. the verc!iet st.ands as' it has Qeen
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Tendere d.
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.lB penaltt pnase"~:sour !:rono~ ~co~la appoint ..P:JYCi:.1.1a.tris.-c::i an(l
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to Patr1c.1e. ,_Kt>~ti'Wink~l;
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. much too., ta~ ~tte 1f" th~ b-el l l'l.as already l;le~
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Th~ jury came bac k.~i ~h. the1 ~ ve.r ~ct a cou
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IO , day.s ago,, I~ is~.ems t-o nie at that time. wou '
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iC it ~er e goin g to be made at all it seeme
1 to me .it sho uld
hav e 'be.Etn made afte r the ver.d1c:t .ca,DJ.e in- ..,
not five seoonds
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ihe Peo ple ts p:os 1t.io n, .;your, liono:r. _.,. is tba t
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. 17 exi stin g law Mr. :Vit zge rald ' a -mot:1-<>n and ple a
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ot this ' new plea ., it seems to m~ tha t we sho uld ~eti ,re
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21 ham1;>ers a.nd e21l.attst1ve-ly- re'Vi.ew the law on
:this. su'bj:-ect.
-~ l don 't thin k the Court sho uld cav alie rly r~le
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one war. ~r
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2a the- oth ~r at tb1 s par ticu lar moment.
..24 I thin k botll- s1des alloul_d ~es earc h thi: s are
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.''26 THE COURT:< We ll, l want to i.nake 3-ure fi:r ~t tha t
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;~r, Fitz;l;}rttld stated. all bi'" tha raa.3ons and are;uments
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. I .ta~,e j. t. non0 or the othe,: defendants are- j oini~g
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Q'. in that?
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i7 :m .. FIT.Z'GERAL!): Miss Krenwink;el., it' the Court
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1"8 please~~ I vould reque~t that ail the det~naa:nts b~
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''20: with r,!:f.ss Krenwinkel -a.bQU-t the entry of such a ple~, and I
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~); ean heal' h~r be-hind n.ie, and she ~s .not in aocOlfd w:t th my
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2~ :;r think in her be.st interests s-he ought to. be
_24. present-.
4 : Jury and the defend$.hto ;-; all counsel n:t~th the exaeptj.on ot
s ~. Hue:bes be:!.n-3 r.:resent:)
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' 4-l 1 MR" '.B'UGLios:i:: The Peopl~ -: move, to :have all ~he :
2 :Pe<;>p1e s exhibits introduced ii;1.to evid/;!ncfl ,dt;1ring. the ' '
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23" ~n abundnnce of ~aution~ I think it ia dpne by ope~ation
of ,iaw- nl,;eady ...
25 lBE COU'Rt: they :Will be receiv~d, the same .exhibits
26 tha~ have heretofo~e been reeived.
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the ~efendant~ wanttl.ieb exhibits reqeive47
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Would YQU 'thil'llt about that inesp~d:ive ~f'.' . ' '..'
.. .BY no~-gui~ty-by-~eaaono~-inBaxu,ty ple~s?
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s COUR~: You .m.ean, on the subject of ""
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MR~ FITZGERAL: ~ight ~ mitigating circw;nstances of
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petia:1:t:y, mental $tate ..
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. ~ C:OUR.t: F'f?r .the purpose of 'having theIJl testify
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on the p~~atty plta.~e!
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t.esEify .
- FITZGERALD: . 'Ho:c:- the purpose of 'hav.i:ng t;heqi
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but at,l~ast it is a poS$ibilityt
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?,ft. Fl'tZGERALD: Right.
Ox just think about it. You. d@ 1 t have -to rule
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now,
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't.tm. ~OURT~- Ex$ine th~ for 'What purpose? How?
Wb.ati would pe the scope o~ the e8JJlination1
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. MQ. FITZGERALJ>: To detem.:J.n.e wbethiJ!r she is
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medieatly ilt'by medical standards
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more psychiatris1:s, they .shold make: tt general examination
.of her and $imply re.port, :tf yol,1 want them. to,. their
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8 Ma. BUGL!OSIJ :th~ir ;fa.ndingS'i as. ?fr. K.ay b~ought ' '
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poit; .! wouldn t
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attempt. to put -on that evidence., if it
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.1 those s~ct:tons of .the Evidence Gode relate to
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longer talk;tng about gilt.
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11 MR, KA!: Your Hon.or_. l sympathiz wil=~ Mr .. :
Fi.ttgerald s position, but l . wonder if it
. is . l!e~11:,Y .. '
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,l? proper.
~Q fflt,. BUGLl.OSI: I tend t.o --.disagree... From a 'fJtriat1y
2i . legal. Stt;1nclpoint. . Bu~ I think Mr~ Flt:~geraldt s personal
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:ntonet;.ary 'sacrifice has been enormous in this case.
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20 TKE COUR'J:: The. Cgurt can appoint an .expert if. it
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. t ~em it .necessaz-y or desirable .
. MR . BUGl:,IOSI,:
<
Yes. ;
4 If the Court thinka_it i~ a valid motion of
s ?,fr. Fitzgex-~ld, I think it shouid be at County expense ..
. .
"6' :re WQuld be an unrerili~tic bu:t!den on b:i.tn to
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26
CieloDrive.coni
_2~.,665
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.IQ l~. XE:C~H~ The Oo~;rb isn't . saying :that teattmony trom
' ; lf. a p-~ych~atrist ct>naer.ning the character and. pet"soAAlity o.f
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one <>:f the defendant~ WOl.\ld be i~adm1se:1.1.,1e i 1s it?
J;a inm OOURT: NO.-
MR. lml'l'.H: That would'be all impo:rtant, it would seem
to xne ~ in the penalty phase. .
THE COURT: lio. But l don't tbtnk 1~ 1Q something
lt :that the; c~urt has. to, on 'its. own, a~it"ange tor,.
l.8. ~be detendE,\ntS are per:e~ct..ly capable of' gett-i~g
. . .
... :i9 ~.ersonality and character. witnesses- in it the_y want. to.
20: MR. auGLIOSI: Unless the~e is some legal ~how~~g ~lrea f
......
2r . . ~n ~he re..ord ,. and then I think the Court could make that
,. appointment. But 1n the absence ot'a legal showing,-I
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23 don't think th~t the Courb ~~ .open up this. barrel ot wormf.
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. - ~5, .; ~re not ta:J;,lting' ~p.:out acUnf;as:tl:0-it-;v bu,t we are tal.14ng tbo-u.t
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" f;IR. FITZGE.RALD ,: 'ftnothell p,tOblem is this
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Basicallf ~
x- don 1 t ha.ve a tretnendous ~ount, of' confideno.e in aome Qf .
:. ~ :<panel.
tbe pay-c.h1at:r1sta that are available on th~_ Superior .co~t
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juovs - .... .
a.f Jie~st some
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jurors.
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. .;.,_ .~e.el that you have
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bo~~
15 . their .
test.111\~ny and tlr~t. ~Pflych1ata-itrt~:-w:1l.l. t~st~ify.
' !,- ~ ' _.1 t I r ~
Qn a.ny
' ~~ ' . side -or 'the iss~e. ~~ $~ f~~- ..., ' ~ ~ ' ' ;, :
l.ii.'.::~ . T~ C:U.RT1 . Well, ~1 _js~ ~~P.tt i-$ee any -neatU1t;v tor
.i~ th~qo~t 1.~ ~his . ~~~~e tf~to;nt .P,Sf'~Ji~~~~'. :x~e~ts_i
~ .
19 ~~f
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the.re ya~s_tfiing.; som~
',1: /\, ..~, '
e'Y'idenc.e, sopie
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showiLng, - aome fidi.l,ht.h~t~ ,,'aQe~-~ld po:tnt to that wo.w.d 1
4
this is_ a higly unus1,1al:i Pf.!:O.Uli_ar and bi.zarre s-ituat-ion.
But that is it ..
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Well~ I am not ~aing to appoint doctors>
and I a,n. no.t' going to 4llow t~e plea.
_ l will make that stateuient ~n the record.
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1-m..:, FlTZGER!Ll): l'ou probably had better c;lent., i-q . :;--".':<~
O'pe,n ~~U~t !i 9%''. b:ri.ng iny ~aitnt in b,f:!r~~
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goo4 gue_ss-~ I mean, ,evei~bod.t. w-~s p~sent whe~ fai $aid
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All right~ ''.gent.lemsn.
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A- Ji
i4 On behalf o! a11,the defendants, we are
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interposing an obj.e.cttoll .to. thie. ~o-called. ,Pertalt.- _phase
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, c, the trial on tha g~Qund that' the de~th penalty, which;
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is an equal penalty to life impri.sot1mep,t ii;n Californt.aa- . . '
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that the death penalty for fust degiee
21: murder cons~itutes cruel and :unusual punishment tn~v~ola-
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~ . tion
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of; the :Sighth l\mendment, to the: United ~tates
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Constitu:tiaon , and Section 6, ...Ax:ticle ~.1. of the California.
24 Constitutiol\ . . -~--:-: ~ ,. J .,_ +
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' In suppdrl;: of. fJ:iat .~oposition> l wo\;lld like
26 to argue. that the death penalty is cxuel ~d unU$ttal
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21.,670
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1 beca.use
. '. it inflicts the loss of 1:tfe 'tfithout commensur111,~e
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__ , 2 justification. The r~9 ht to l,.ife. is a funda.menta1 tight
3 and befo~e the State may restxit such a fundru;nental right,
'4 it ,:nust demonstrate a coni~elling intore,st in so doiti$,- and
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p
.,
!;,
8 the public far outweighs the im.pnit'IIl.ents of the constitutiona1
,:j.ght; and (3) no alte'r:native menns less subvet'sive- -of
.
10 the con_$titutional rtght axe available. -
The propet f~nctions of punishment are isola..,.
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1-2: tion~ rehabilitation and deterren~e, n9t ret~ibution.
13 laolatioA and retribution can be bette~ achieved by life
imprisonment than ~xecution.
-4d f1s-. -14
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r_~ ~ive.com
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4d-l- Itis also Qruel and unusual .in that it is
2.
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.imposed. withou(! standards and. can b~ imposed rc.gardlass of
e:-ttenuating c.i:r::uumstnnccs
Also, Section$ 190 and 19041 of the CalUornin
5 renal God~ con:l:er absolute discr(}tion on the.jury and
6 tber~by require the jury to perform a sui gcnario Zunction
C
2l , a I
- Cier::...11ive.cor11 .
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l Section l90il does not explain which circum-
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4i
stat1ces or _background acts ~hould be conaide:red .a:s
agg:rava,t.ing an~ Which ~s :mitigati1' g, no~ the extent: :of
,, impo$_i,tion
a.gg.;ra,j,ation or mit:i.gatiq n necessar, 8 for the
5
or withholding of the ultimate p~nalty.
6
A number .of California Supreme Court cases have
7
heid that the jury doen not need to find ameliorati ng
... 8,
citcU1nstanees to impose life imp~ison.ment nor need it find
~ agg:r.nvati.on tn .order to :l.cp0.se tbe death penal,ty~ The
_,
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19,
ch9ice between tll<a 'bto penalties res.ts_ :tn .the abso;l.ute
n discre~io n of the jury.
l.2, FJ.11:'the:rmore, the jury is instructe d uhat 11:Beyond
13 .p:resc~ibing the two nlternativ ponalties, , the law_'itse.1
1~ provides no ntandard for the suidance of the j~y in .the
15
selection of the penalty, butl .:r.athe:i;'> commits the whole
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lq ' mat;:ter of. dotorminin g ~;hich of the. two penalties .sh.all ,be
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fi:sea to the judgment., conscienc e snd absol\,lte discretion
'i$
o:f the jury...11
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' '!'ho absolute
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disc:rcc_i.on
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jury. deliberate s under the C9urti s itist:ruct:ln$ ,and
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~eachcn its verdict$ -within the area delineate d by the
2:s
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z penalty in the ubsa~co of any presc~ibed standards
3,
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4epri.ves the defendants of life without due proces,s of law
4, ~n-viqlat ion of tha Fourt~ent h /mend.neut to the Unit~d
{) s:tat,es Constitut ion.
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6 Nothtng could be mor~ basi~ to the ~ue proce$S
~
13, administr ation of c:ritninal justice.
,14, The absence 6 any ~tand~tdo to circwn.sctrlbe
fact.s !Sr -the trie:r of f,1.cts' discretion under .Sections 19.0 and 190 .1
16 of the t
PenQ.1 .Code to detexmine ,~hether a convicted capital
for? 17 defet!,dnnt -~lw.11 sufc~ de~th or life impri$onment the~efore
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21>. :i;n., the critnina.l law serves to ptotect ti1Q basic isets of
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13 a:1.X>cUJI!.st.anaes: 1,1nder whi<:fh a pe;ttso11 may re~e1 v~ the dea:~h
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penalty rather than life impr~~drunent remAin totally unclear
. .
i; howeve~. The law~ by fa1i1ng t~ p~ovide crtterta sufr~oien~ 1
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1~ . ast:er~ainable to- guide th~ c-ourts and Jutiie.s, in m_aking that
.
:,.1 .di$t1.ncttQn, prevents ~ de-.t'enda.nt from know.1-:g how to show
.
1s that he fails witbin the class or capita~ offen.de~s ~or whom-
th~ law oc>ntemplates tl1e_ le-s,se~ penalty of life in}pr1sonment.
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20 ' F-urthermo~ei'the cQmplet~absenoe 0~ ~tand~rd~ in
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- ~I . the admin,1at~av1on of ~~e.deatb penalty deprives the
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d~-t~nd~t _o:f an~ way to p~ot.ec;t bimfJe~f .agains.t an arbitra:ry
_23 imposition of the death ponalt.y. ij:tnae no l.1m1ta.tionEJ bind .
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the exero:tse -o-r th~ disl'.et-ion
...
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l. ,penalty to h:tm.
2 $eot1ons 190 and'l90.l tht.tl den;y- due process o.t
,
law because they provide no standa:t-df:J by.which an abuse
4 of discretion by the trier of' ra:et oa.n b~ curbed o~ even
5 sul)jeated to revie\-1. The power oi.' tb.e trie-r ot fact to
' ,6, deort':le the death sentence 1s ae };>road and ar~itrarr as it
'l ls .abs.oiute antI untouchable.
- 1s.
r.atn~r than life i:tnpri13.onment violat-es the bas;lo. ~"1.tarant.ee
Qf' the equal p-rotection ola.uae that the legal process
10:.. must prov,:J.de for even-handed justice.
~ such discretion also violates the ~ssential
. , .i& -0or.ollary ot this propo~it.1.on that. a . statute abridge a this
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19 gu.a~a.nty :tr- ;tt con:re:tts up<>n the j:ux,y 11 .a naked and al"bitrary-
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power 11 1;0,-:; imJ?oie a criminal penalty 011 the bas:1s of any
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.e,;r.,b;t,:trary,' ~el~eti6n
23 ;Lmposit;tQn. ot a speo1a:;t, .,ord~n. : ;r.t requirea .a., . p:iinimum
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J. tr1e~ of
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ract;arbitra~ily to' dete~mine whct~&r
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a particular
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. .among those ,aonvic.ted ot cal;>1 t~l crtnies > is to- die. .. Wha_tvd: ~
~~ the differences en which thi~ dec~$lon h1~g~s, ~~ef remain
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dem~aningly trivial compared to the .stakes. ~he d1scret1Qn~y
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.~ ?I' Stlt.es. Supreme Court: . , , : .
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1he ' cruel and.ijtlil)man. ptu'iishment iu.gwnf!nt has. '
. : ~ > beeri
tUl'ned down num~rqu-s- t1mea-,. ~nq the. -cqur_t~- .b~ve pointed.
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,10:.' out the ~act that tne.United States Oqnstit~tion anticipates
u the .de(l.tp. :pe.no.lty no less than three tim..es in the .;Fifth
1~ . Am~no,men-e al-one-~
p,
,in. th(). G:r.and Jury, the d()ub le jeopardy and
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.
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21,,680
3.
4 and
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proceed
Anything further before w.e bri:ps th.e J~y dQwp,.
~iyh tpe penalty phaGe?
'
. your. Horto.rJ 1t bas be~n ci.t, ',t~e f~~U~ohea(i . of.. t)Q~ Ju~ge ~..
> ..
10
woxs.k:Lng
.
I don't have anf mo:ve mQney.
. seven lilbnths
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now
I haven't got any more money
You see, he: ha& beet1
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to, par him: 'nlat is one good r-easort~
17 And anoth&~ goo~ ~eason is that X have peraona l
.)s k~owledge of the people involved , and could pr.ob~blf put ~n
19 .'. . a Vert sensible . pen.alty phase 1:t the Jui;ise would l~t lite do
thiE;& .
21: ~HF; oattRT: Well,; r,w .Man$on,. this question ,. of cou.r$e,
. ;_2.. as ypu .k,now.,. has been cons-ide:red b~l.t a do~en times or .more
..
;is $1noe tbis ca~e began,.~ ~ at least tour d1ftetre nt j-u9,ge11.,
.sever1al times b.y me ...
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. ! aee no reas~n. to change my mind that you are not
bompetent to ;""epresent yoursel f.
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.21"681 ~
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l DE-Flt1ID.4NT
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MANSON : I -' Your
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Ho.nor
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THm COUET: Now~ if you have information whion you
3 , think "fill help you in th~ penalty phase,_ then r' certainly
',
-4 urge you to give it to, :1-0ur attorney and pe-rmit him: to
5 conduct the b~st possible detep.Q,e that he can; and the
. 6 ppesenae o-t Mr. Kana:re}c,as your lawy~r is not going to
~ ' . . 't h~nder your defense; i~ is going to help it, If I did.not
belie\re so l would q.o .somethine; about it .
-~. , DEFENDANT MANSON: We have bean throuah this before as
'
10- w.ell on ,Qne aide a~ tqe other~ an~ I say to you this,, that
11 ... no man q,an s-peak in place 9t this man tnat 1rt st~din_g in
THE COURT: Well
.OE~ENDANT MAN$ON=: Your Ron.or, may I be heard> please"?
'. lS -The atto,rney ha.& not _put on a def'enae.
-:Uh-e attorney;s did.rt' t want to a.sk the questions
l7 when .1 t q.arne tma to put dn tlle- defense ...
1s . 'l'he. a.tt.oi1neys 'Would;n 1 t ,unde?"stanp. the d~fen"!le !Lf,
CieloDrive.com
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No_~:~ :i.11 th::! pr~v:r- mot:tor.ia:, in the pttior motiorr s
6 that :t Q.f:Cercc. in front of you, so:a~th ing d;ld cQ.me betwee n
7 us. and it wa~n Pc, 1n:.,' i7~ul~o .
" .
It co~i1e betwee n us oec-aus e the
'8 She~if f has more :lUthor i t1 ~~J.lall if our Honor.
9 Ii' the Judcc oays -one thing, the Sht:1r1i"t a-ay-s
10:
g The prQ p~~ fi).cilit>i,f..:. wa~ not :ln the isoj.ati c>n
i2 war.d,_ and .l -d1(..t.~1_tt ho.t-0 acce.us to the proper materj. al to
rs mal,;::e r.iotion.l.,, ::.nd 1:.non tho rr.c~ion-.:,: d:l.d appear in front of
~4
15
your ifonor) the:,, 't-J'.o-r~n t rrolil this mun; the-y we~e from
another - se~men t .>' anotbc: r tllau.sc .t, yoJJ. know~ and I look at
i6 thi-s attd I uo.y to t1;s.r.nelf,, the only til~~e:; that I can- Clo +s
J-1 .giv~ my&el an equal -ohan..e~.
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:t wot1ldn 't <~ilk you for an;:rtbii lg that I o-ouldn 't
19
.. ~i~e i1.t1.u,. nno r cr.1~ to be 0J:.lc;1zr::t to pu.t on tl.1.is penalt
20.,
~ha.se ~ as I hD.VE-' a.i:.ltcd tc, be alltmed to orfer a detens-e,
I
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a$ clums3 atid v.i1.1:;r.rn.j?.cJ. ,ls it r;,.~y bo, l .J. .,:,'Ure you -Will see
-- 22
that it it v~:r:y ade-uutc:-bt::c~u~0 ! .can ati1nd on ml tl1ougp.it
23
as I o.m Qn~ ir1 th m:t tho:ugb t '
.~{
,,;4
?llE C:Qlll!T1 llr. B:;.n"on, you will O,e perm1t ted to l>~t,,~v
~5 /_, /ff' .
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on all l~galli, r adni:Ji3 ible ctv:tdr;:nc.~. in your de!entH1 on t9e
~I?
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Mr. Kanarek .to th($ utmost,..of Y.Otf.r a_bllity .. ~, ,
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4 d~ni~d.
~.our motion 'to ;,substitute to. ~e.l~eve
an4 repi1e:sent . you:ris~ ~.; ,(11.'. ~ll~V--
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ia what 1:t
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Mr.~
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the wi,tness stand, becaue.~ when l say som.eth:Lng on tbe
w:t.tness stand, that does not . ;p:iake it valid simply becau-se
I ~a1 it_
11 l wish 'to eall -wi.tnesi,ea in In.1 behalf,_. as I. bit-VG
18 wished to eall wit~e.ases tn my behalf. ~is h:as beftn ro~
'19. show .
What good~$ aco\l?'troo~ it it 1s o~ly one~~ided?
.21: : ~ couaT-i I hear~ your ~gument.s ., Mr, Manson:, I
22 ~ave heat'd the argum.ents; I have heard the same arg.ume~tJ
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23 before. 'rbe tr,tof;:l:on i1B 'den:t:e4.
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24 , ' DEFENDANT MANSON: It is not. an a"r'gument. It, 1s a f'ac1
~5 , THE OOWT:. -All :r~gbt, tJir; you- 111ay si.t do~.'
,26 l)EFEN'DANT I;(ANSOij 1 Oa.n you l:ook at the fact?
c:iain. . .
.can
21,.63.4
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. . DEFENDANT l1ANBONt /
Ca~ you look at the. faot-?'
3 .. Tl$: COVR:r: . . You.. may oit do\iln, sj_l.'.
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2() Tlffi., COU'ET: If y.ou don rt sit down at oncre I wJ;.l have
:ft
21 you reino:ve:d. I suggest to you it is not to your best
22 interest.
PE~NDANT M:AN$0Nt My be-at :tnterest_, you alr~aQ.J
"convicted me tQ~ ,aornethtng t didn't even: do.
25, 'r THE COURT: Mr. .Kanare~., 1QU may ma.ktt you,: motion'.I'.
: 5b .26,
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l'.,oman.. You eap.tt face me in this courtroom . If you 1et
9 "(.ets proceed.
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! hav~
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.J~as'oit .to
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belie.ve that since becQrd.ng
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18 'Tn' ,COllRT: Then you put .1:t in .the form oJ; ~ ,qr.it;telt
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MR. KANAREK:
' I do have it . '
. CieloDr"
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tovere~ u~ forever~
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(Whereupon the JXJ.~be:rs o-i the ju:ry. ente-r the
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cou~ttoom and the follow~ng p~-0ce~dtngs were had in open
eoltlZt iri the presence.and he~ting of the jury:)
8
Yoq_ lllaY, proceed, .Mt", Bugliosi .
:to TBE CLERK: Would you raise' y;;ur i!gbt haudt -Sir.
lloul.d you please reps.a afte,: me:
12
l: do _.solemnly swe9-,: .,_
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-rHE. 'WlX!IBSS: l do. solemnly swear ......
14' -.. TIIE GttRK: _..:, that the test:tD?,ony i n,tay give ...
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.Tm! WITNESS~ . - ... th? <?a.use n..ov~ pendi~g ,. ...,.. ,.
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~THR CLERK: - .. :b.e-0:t"c this; ~ou~t ~~- ~ . ' '
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THE CLERK: ..,_ shallhe t;hetru.th "!'...
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..... .the who'le truth_ ... -
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nmCLERK: -- and not}!in'bu~_ tho t:(uth -- ,..- .
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tlIE 'WITNESS:
THE. CLERK:
sq help ~e God*
Would you be seated; please,
W9uld you pleaee state .and spell yo~name~
.
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13 . THE COURT I :r 'If.Silt :te~~rd to t-eflec:1: what J;
M ju.st ob.sorvad., and tih:lch of '.t!ourse the xecot.d c~t.tlc;l -not ,. J
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other than Mr. Manson s woi-ds.~
is . :;ho,;i
Wer~ yo'l,1 able to get ~:Ls. ~or<isf
'tr
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' tt , S REPOB~lH. X wath
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THE! -COUR'l': Mr~ M4tl~son sttu~k Mr. I<anar.ek, it;
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ls tlult "-rt~t-, Mr .. -. lw1.t~? . +;!'-
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the eefendant, I think )'our Honor lias othei: means of
ascertaining t:ho$e fa9-ts.~
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21 .. 688
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4 Uhni: happaned t-.7os that }Ir. Manson struck yqu.
5 several times, -sitting at tho counsel table,- and in a
{i voico that could be plainty heard said wotds to the
'I af~e.ct. '1I c;antt ~et along with hlPl; I can t' get al,ong,'
.8 'tlith this man) n o-r wor-ds to ,that $ffe-ct
As n result of th~t tliGtupt ive and violertt
:to behavior t had him.removed from the courtroom.
ll Does anyone car~ to sa.y ,.miything1.
12. MR. BUGLIOGl~ I obsGxved the same thing that the
Court cti4,.
I obse,:ved one :fnitly hard blow by Mr" Manson
15 -, . to, Mr .. K;anarek s side.
;1.6 "1:aE COURT: Tit:t:s 1vas plainly Vi$ible to. th~ jury
because Mr.. Munson was sitting, fo.cing the jury a.t
11
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'J.8- counsel- table with Mr. l{a~4,::ak f,a~tn:rj the jury d;I.r:ec.t1y ,'
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... 1~- :tn: front of the jux-y on, the opp~site _ ~ide of th~, ~outtr.oom1
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20 n.ot moie than 20 feet IJWPY'. ,
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. ~l MR. B"(JGLIOSi,: :whh~ :c say: l ob~eryd one blo~~, , .
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-~a vary welt may have been more blo~s: :-I- ~a~ -~o~kin,c -.;o, !the~ :
24 front,., ,4n4 11hen l looked to the le~t X saw on~ ~~0t1 .
9,-._ 25 MU,. 'MY: ! obse1;;ved twq blo\:7S'; 'b~th to Mt; kana:reks
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hear them-;. and
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also disr~gard what yo\1 saw in -oQnneetiQn
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6 ltlti: .KANAEEK: Your: U:onor-, may I nav a oontinuis;
1 obj~Qtion on relevancy and materiality~ an,d that the
,.:
,prejudicial value o:u.tweighs'the probative va:J;.ue a.star aa.
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DIRECT EXAMINAT.IOU
14,, ' f)Y r.m. BUGLIOSI:
' k .:.
Q liQW Old are ,-:ou,, Mr~ -Crowe?
A,, 2'8. -..
~ On the clate:5 July 31st, l969, )(ere rou up in
Hollywood?
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19- , t ~ . - ie:s ~
- ~o f,t.,~ ,"-.w~re you ~t ..an -&;Pa;r-tn:ien~ .~ou~li on ,ranklin
; ~ :$. ' T ii J 11, '' ii. I "1 t ~ ! -' M~ ~
21 " Boul,evar<t in Hollywood? ~
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Yes.. : -. . ~ '
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no you know the a.dd?Jet&a ot that apartment house,?
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1 q -- FrqX;t.klinBoulevard.?
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Yes,.
Near what laz>ge intersac:ti-on '1
I thin~~ it '2- 1b$tween Highland a.nd I.ia
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area, if I am
s. not mi:;i:ta,ken. . '
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Yes ..
And wna.t 1a the fri,end"'-s name?
SteYe.
,J6 14 Was anyone .else :1.n the car?
tz A. .Yes.
18 Q, 'Who else?
,. ,' 19
Steve:, Dell,, Jm and Rosinu. and myself'.
, ,20 '
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~heaa w~re all fri~nds Q~ yourn?
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~l -Yes~
,22 "
D-0 fQU know Rosi.nars. las~ name?
23 A. NQ, :t don 1-t ,
Q;_ Did Rosina l:Lve 1:n this ~partment b.ous-e.?
25. .t,\ . 'tes . .
.Q _Do you
. ~now n man by the name of Tex Watson?
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t JL -Yes ..
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Wa$ h~ alr,10. ins'ide the car?
Y.es.
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~ q:i~cus-~f9l1
was there,. an;y:i i??, th~ _u$1' w~th- respect
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of' the car .-;ith ~~spet to the puroPaS1;:1 of marijuana?
. 2 On Franklin> o~ _,...
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21 Q.
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When yo.u r;ay
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tt~tti~d:i H you mean ma.r:t.Juanaf
. ) ...
22' ......
23 . 0,'
.24 anyone lD.Qrtey.?
Yes.
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Del.
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2 How much ,non~y .did y<)u give Qlm?
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3, 2400.
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we ~"1 ."befo~e
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ww. ~ent'
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there~
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t<, --pick the
up ~- :
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:, neople
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J~s-t roonien-t.': J... , tbat 'Qij~~t;ion:: was. ;l.e:ad:L~.,
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. ~ii - Q - BY MR.. BUGL:tOSl; : No-w., did r,ou and Del and Jimmy
.and etev~ and Tex Watson and Roatna tti-1ve ~o El *onte?-
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Do
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Y'Oll know where you drove-
c>tthand., no.
tp- 1ri El Mont'ef
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1 :ra:rdon?
2 A. Not offhand., no.. Sorr_y.
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l. don't t believe I. can :recall the stre~t .-
,\.fter you s~opped the cai in front of this
apro;tmen~ .buildin_~ in,. El 1-fatite, ,~hat!. is t~e neltt. thing
l:> ,that! happened?
J,. At tl1a.t: time he had asked. fo-r the nton~y ~ ~nd
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he .said he woqld 1;,e back in 15 ot 20 .minute~--
15
A Yes, after I geve ~t to J.)el an4 Del gave it
to him, .aftel;' a short,. brief conv:crs~tiom .
Q t'ou gave Dal $Z400 than outside the apart~ent
17 building in El Monte?
18
, A ~ight.
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lmd tllen yo~ SEM Del giv~ Tex Watson the.
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A !es.
Q. t'1hat discuss-ion was had at that .time with
21_1
respect to the purcbose 0 ma~iJuaa't. 1
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5d-2 l offering .a conclus-:1.on, he Wa$. under the imp;ess.ion._ ,
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2 THE COURT: !lead the questS.0n, ~. Ho-llombe.
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7 '.BY MR. BUGL!OSI ~
8 Q You may answer the question, Mr. Crowe ..
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A Wl:lat was that ag~in?
10 Q . tfuat discussion was had in the car concetn.il,ng
the_ p1,1rchase .c,f JiiariJuana when the c:ur was pa:d<ed outside
the ,.ap~.tment. buil,ding in ll ,Monte?
A, ,At that time I had the impre.s sion that th(; money
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' ' '14 . woul.d ti,evqr 1eav.e rny presenc~ until, you know, the niarij:Uan,a;
1 s 'ila!3' thexe, and we -~batecl that a few minutes; and th~n t
16 : _ said; u It s yotn: ,:espons.ibility, Del, '1 and I gave hiln. the
17 money and he save i.t to him~ ,and ~t tha.t point, that, is'
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22 Jlla:t;i,1 u.ana?
23
A 1es ..
24 What -did he say? ~ ~~, ...
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He. ,aay he will .bring: ;t~
.nid Mt'.
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inside.the <;:ar?
A.t the time he got ~ut did evexyone ~'.lse :tte.main.
Yes.
Dld you see Mr. Wa:t:son ~ter the aparttne1't
6 buU4ing?
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1 A Yes, because no sooner he .enttered the apartment
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. buildi~g, i;in.d I j 11st: allt:<:>maticnlly jtUnped out of th~ c:a.r to
9
se~ :whe~e he was goin&-
10
Attd at that time he, you know,,he ditappeared-
11
, Q. So you. saw him enteX" the apa.:c-enient build~g?
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Yes.,
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:is: . Q Did you.$nt~~ the a~atb:llent building at that
-:- 14,, . ; ~itn~?
1~.. A Yas. -
1~ - Q Imm.ediate-ly after he -did?
11 : . . A 'ies, but .he ~i~sp"are(l. I did not see., what
_18. . -apa'ttment he went tl\to"
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~o bon.is. He. never .sh<3wed up so. we left then and. went .
. . back. to the
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apartment
. :ln Ho-llywood
. .on Ftanklin Boulevard~
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0., , . So, Mr.. Uatson then llad $2400JI you sayt is- that
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correct?
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A Right.
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Q And he entered the apartment building, is
4
that correct?
5
A Yes.
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Q, And he said he was going to get some marijuana,
7
is that correct?
8
A That 1 s right.
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Q, You have to answer out loud.
10
A That is true, yes, sir.
u
Q But he never came back out of the apartment
12
house?
13
A Right.
14
Q And you never did get the marijuana?
15
A No, I did not.
16
Q About what time was it when this happened in
17
El Monte?
18
A It was about 12:30, close to 1:00 when we
19
left.
20
Q So this is about 1:00 a.m. now on the morning
21
of August 1st, 1969, is that correct?
22
A Right, correct.
23
Q And then you drove back to the apartment house
24
on Franklin Boulevard in Hollywood, is that correct?
25
A Thats correct.
26
Q What is the next thing that happened?
CieloDrive.com
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A At that time Rosina had called out to the ranch-
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MR. KANAREK: I ask that that be stricken, your Honor,
3
that Rosina called out to the ranch, as hearsay, a conclusiot.
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There is no foundation for it, your Honor, over
5
and above the continuing objection.
6
It is a voluntary-statement.
7
THE COURT: Do you wish to be heard?
8
~.. BUGLIOSI: Well, if I'm heard at all on this, your
9
Honor, it ahould be up at the bench.
10
THE COUkT: Well, it appears to be a conclusion.
11
The objection will be sustained and the answer
12
will be !tric~n.
13
BY MR. BUQLIOSI:
14
Q Did you enter Rosinas apartment in the apartment
15
house?
16
A Yes.
17
Q, On what floor of the apartment was her apartment 7 , .
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5e fls. A The second floor.
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; 5e-l l And who. wa..s in the apartment at that time bt!sides
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,y.oti and ll<;>FJina:?
A. Del, Jim., Rosina and my&elf .
And did Rosina make A tel~phone call at that.time?
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5 Yea ..
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. In so~r pr~~ence?
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. 1 Yes.
s
i Did she say where she was_go~g to oa111.
9
tes.;
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MR. KANAREK.; ObJ'ect, on the. g~ounds ot hearsaf-
.. May that. be ijtriaken;, rour Honor?
_1? ~HE COURT:_ Wait 0~ ,the ruli~g.
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D;f5FENDANT t,IAUSON:
Your- -Hono~,- I
(Fron the hold~:p;g ;robm)
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.qu,es~i.on -Ob. i;h'e ,g:rqurtds /# your Honor~- that it s.olicitlii
F ::. hearsay ,
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aria .there 1~. no fo.undgtion . _
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THE 'COUR'r:
.,, IJ:he bbJ.e.o:.t,:on is auatained.. . 'rp.& answ~r
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i.s s-tr1.cken~ The jur1, is. ajinio_pished ~O. ~is.regard it ..
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~nyone over the teiephone.
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1"2' ' MR, KA~AREK ~ Object, 10.u:r Rono:r ~ that is cali~ng_ f-Q;r
'' 1'3 a conclu3ion. He lias nc way of knowing --
14 in~ .COURT: Th~ objection 1e '.austa.11'.led,, unlesi he was
' Q, ' Hpw long af'terr sli~ .Wti.~. pn the' teJ;epb,one did ehe
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6 Taat is not the way you prove a telepho.ne ,.
~ 1. . ~onversa.t"ion Iie bas to prove that he haa eome kind ot
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'8 knowlede;e ot the voiee on the other end., your Honor
9 lt is im!)royor
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i no ro:undation to tha.t.
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10 'THE COTJJ,i'l': Lay a rc,-undaton..,. r~:.:,-. Bugliosi. Th.e
11 Objection is sustained~
- 12. Q ,. 13! MR. BUGLlOSI: Did: y:ou bave .a con~ers.Q'.tion
ra with someone on the telepho~e?
14 P.. Yes.
i.5' 4 Did- the pel'son with whom you we,:,e talking '--Q.erttify.
l6 _bim1,;elt or he:rselt''l
~7 r-m. X-AliAREKt C'allit'lg tor hearsay t a;, conclusion; no-
JS. :p?ioper f.Qundation., yo.u:r H'.o:no:r.
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24- And what
25 the phone?. .,.
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2~- MR~. K~N~~~:: 1 . O'bJ:ect, ~alltng ro:z. hea:vsay ~ ~ conclusion
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l yotW HQnor improper iol_ltlclat10.
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2 DEFENDAUT HAli~ON:
cutt1~g my t;hroat.
Will you be quiet., man?
Sh.ut up!
'You are
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. yott who he was?
THE W~~lIBSS;
That would
No,. ~ di-d not.
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13 Honor~
14 TiiE Wl.ZNESS: no.
15 'rHE couaT: sustained ..
10 ,Q B J.m. BUGLIOSI: What did _you say ,tQ th-13 ma.n1
17 MR.. KA~fAREK: That is hetiroay~ I object .on the- ground
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6,,,.J. 1 .: i - BY MR. BUGLIOSI,;
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?HE COlJRT; Th~ objection i-s overruled.
You :i;nay answ~~ the qu~stion.
ti-IE WITNE:SS: ;t vaguely do, the phone call, at the
,
time.
nm: COURT: tlu! answer :ts non-t'esponsiv.e.
17 "Re~d the 9,t1e$tion.
18 (,:he question wap ~cad by the repoxter-.).
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MR. tu~K! Tht;J.t is leadiug and suggestive and
.
29 -calling or g oncl;us:ton.
. :' 2li THE COURT: Ov~tuled.
.' 22
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You .may answer.. 1
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THE 'Rl'XNBSS: I sm tiot. thal;;' positive.
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It was the
that
first time I hea?;"d: his Voice . --
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lllJGLIDSit ~ Now, looking back;- did that
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appear -.to be Mr. Manson s voice? .J~\
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6-2'. 1 :, )JR. ~ K ; Ob~ecition -on the grounds ,that the
... ~ : pr.ejudic.i,al value far ou~igh_s t~ probative value, and
,. call:i.ng for _-a conclu.sion and bea.1:say.
4 ~ TBE GOURT: It has already been aeked .and an.swered.,
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?he objection ill be sust~ined.
6
.BY lilt, BUGLIOSI:
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in .looking back?
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1~ MR.. KANAREK: I object. .It is ,calling for -conje.cture
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.. ' and aoncl'2,sion.
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14 MR. BUGLlOSI: A witness tloesnt have to be positive
15
about the identificatio n of a voice.
: i6, : , , l am .asking hinl '.if tt is h:ts op;utiQn based on
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17 subsequent conversation with Mr. ~son that it was Mr.,
Manson. ,
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tliE COUJ.tf: 1,~t' s find o~t 'if he h~s an opinic;,n :.,/ .
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whetller .or not i.t wa.$ .z.tt. :M'Anson on tbe telephone?.'
23 1tml wtrNESS: No.. I d rather say I do not.ii.
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. ,., BY l-nt. BUGL!OSI:
Q .A:ftC?~ you spo~ to ,tb,i~-
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'-~. Jrfye.COITI
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1 You m~an, in th~ cou~s~ of the convets ation i
:j
2 on th~ phone between e $,ld Manson2
.3 ~ No. After yo~ had tne. conversation with the'
4 man ove:t the telephon e, what is .the very next thing that
happened ?
... A ;t left tne np~r.tme1_1t ~
,7 Q -'Where did you go?
8
A l.weQt to a f~iend omines residenc e and I
9 retutned .
10
Inside. the same apar.tni.ent. house,?
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oclock.
2:00 a.-m . 1
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1:.30 or 2:00~ Somewhexe be.tween l:30 artd 2.:00
3
A
Q
ln the morning.
Did yo~ zeturn to the apartment with anyone?
Yea.
5. Q Who?
A Stev~ .
!?l 'Who?
A Rosina, StevE!, Delj myself and T .. ,J.
24
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; 6a-l
~. Cbar4es Hahson?
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,t.' 'Q,, - Did you.. see 2s1r. Hanson?
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THE COURT: Yes> th. rec,ord will eo -indicate,.
18 BY MR . BUOLIO.SI:
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Q.. _ Wa~ that the f:t.rst -time that y-ou ha:d aver ;:3een
.20 . f;.r., Manion? .
Yes.
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MR~ lHl,GLIOSI: :toll.r H.onor, I'. bav~ here a phQt9gxa4:pb ,.._
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in . .fa:et.' -t~o phot9g;raph$
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,....... a, sid-e view
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~rid a ftontal, .
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BY I-IR.~ BUGL-IOSI t i' .: .
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:,c allow you People's p-1.
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11' Q: Wat? this the man. that was with !lr . Manson?
12
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26
do something like that.
I.ffi:. K(1.NA,REK;
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i Tim COUR';I:: The answer wi11 be str~cken.
;>.:
:a i-s admon:tsbod
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to d:t.a.reg~vd.
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4, Bt lIR .. , BUGLIOSI:
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, ,5 What dip. ~'yg.u "siy to i;r ~ Uan::wn and what ~:ttd be
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1~ done~l' .
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to finish his answe:r?
. i-lr .Bugliosi at that point~,
I th1nlc he was interrupted' try
is- . Ml:>-f l l ~ tQl<;i rou that be ws.s not responsible for what
~
19 H:r. ~.hf;.l;d done; is that co:r:rect?
,,~Q
A. Yes.
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~l Q Did you aver t.ell r,:r. Hanson wha~ Mr~ Wat$On had
~~- done?
';!~- ,MR~ KANAREK-; Leo.ding, and, 11uggGst:1.ve, fOlU" Honor, ~.
Object-ion ..
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No,. !,..,,., :never
...... -~-~r:ieritioned
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26, THE COOET: Overx-ule<t", -
THE, WlT!iESS: In my own words~ I never mentioned
3,
anything.
BY ~m.
Q
aUGLIOSI:
Now., did t-1r. r.lqtJ.~on indicate: t~ you, tn- any
5 ta11hi-on, -whethe:r,, he was,tne pe~son to whom you had spok~n
over the tel~phone an ho~~ or so ~arlier? f f ..
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~- : actiona. We don t know wheite be is...
s Q Let: s go baok to..the .c::onversatiQn over th,!
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-~ te.lephone,.
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Ma. ::auGLtOSI: Be .baa al;ready ~estf:ffied1 Ylillt&r Hou.ox,.
:th4t Mr; Man~on. ind,tqated 'f.:ha-t he W&$. _-~be .man be. had just
$p9ken ta 0-ver the phone.
16
Ma. lWWmK: B~t tlds ques.tion is still iiapt'o~rt.
l7'
-no XDEJ.tter what this witness says.. 'Xhat. doe.an .e authentic.ate
18 11ny previ'()us- conversation.
~- 19
tHE. -COURT t the obj.ectiqn :ts SU$Cained,.
. 2!) BY MR- 'BUG!;;tos:r l
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24 A What happened afeet th4t1
Q Yea,.
: 26. '. A Well, at $at time, I can-tt-rexaember what the:
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1 : last statement 1ias. that was .made bsfor~ the. i}lotJon 01:
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2 acti.vity took place, but:' he got up """" I me~n, he -"sa:t.th '
' , . 3 . Of cou-rse, l came 1:~-ady.: 11 , :i ; :
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Q, Andwe~e yo.u s~tting some.where?
~
A Yes. In a chair.
10 '
Q. And wero the other people still. in tp.e apartmetitf
'.n
A Yes
.1~
Q. .t\11.tl how long were- :you talking to hit4 befo?=4! you
: ... 1-3' ,.
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say-he got.
A
ap?
I think ~bout tett o:rt fite~m minui;:es, ltoU$hlY.
lty ..
He d~ne mos~ of the talking~
~6,
~.'' 'l'hen you say he: got up ,;.om the .bed; ts that
17
correct1
18
Yes. He got lip ...
.19 lo'
When he got up, did you also get up?
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A Y~s.
2S :'."
lJhat is the nex.~ t:h-ing that happened'l
. ~4 ,
Of coul!sej I
r'< ' A well, he got Up;. and he. said:
2S
a~e 1:eady.
And then he backed up~ little bit, and he ta
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! s,aict1~: \-Jhy do
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And in the \coip:se; of,. the t:uigger being pulled.
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pull one on you. ,"'\. +
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i..nd he kept pull:i.ng tlie 't:r.~gse)t. . ~ ~ :
1 So; I rnado an att~pt to g~t out of the .chai't' . .
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to go
gomg ta
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save'
myse~, Ol: wb.a.tevor ,.
io And at that eime., AS I le.med forward, the
gun shot ~3ain 1 .and h~ said: This ottc is loadad.
:.\nd I fell 't>a.elt in. the ch.ctr, and l loo~~d, and
-- 13.
,15
then.. :t tried to go forwttl.:'d again, and then
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t:iJnes?:
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W~$
A Right her~., .
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MR. l3UGLIOSI: M~y tJl~r ;reto):d .':;reilect the w;:.1::ness
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'-part it: i~ .
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Tl$ COURT: 'Xhe. record -will $0 it1dicate. , :"'
11. 1-lS o BUGLIOSI: Did you see the ~evolve~ in
12 Mt. Mansott s haqd?
13 A Vagt.1ely, yes. .
:i Could you describe the :r.evolver for the Judge
;1.S
and the Jury?
A It was n lortg one
' J,7 You say long. :tn what fasl1ion? Was the
JS -bar:rel long?
19
A Yes. Sc~etbing like t;hut: one tber.e.
1 sho:w you P.cople s 40 for identificatiqn,.
Rave you evr=r seen that :revolver bef01:e?
22'
A. Yes. :tt looks like it.
.But I w.as ~ distance away ..
-
This looks like tho revolver that Mr. Manson _,,.,
;s . had in hi$ hand$ when h~ shot you'i
2,6 . '
A t-Jhy don t t you point it at, me. Then 1 could tel.1.
l:
something like. thi.a?.
' 2
Ye$,. Could be.
~t never had ~hli-8. Qn it, of course?
4
(Ref'erriug to the exh:lbit t&g-.}
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- A t~o. De.finit~ly not.
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. ,Q But ot:11~:rwis~ it looked 1 lj.!5e :this?
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A Yes. :, --~ . , ! 1
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or -what'?.
14 _
A ierhaps a little closet.
15
About t_ight there. Somewhe,:e. arou~d thei-e,
16 '
MR.. '.BIJGLIOSI! .May -the record reflect an approximat$
' 17-
distance of 15 feet,_ y9ur Honor?
18
THE WI'tNE'SS: Uould you mo-ve .back a. littlE!! bit7
Yes, soin.awhett'! .arounq .in- there ..
20
Tim CO'CJR.T: Approximately.
21
'l1HE. :WITNESS! ~ppr9x:i;m,ately.
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:SY 'MR. WGLIOSI:
24
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k. Well, at t~at tirna,
get up,. und then :tnt.u:tti.on said "Play possum. u
So,. t. played possum a.nd held my breath..
I -m&de a mental attempt to
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6d-l I . Q. _ ~ou don't ,know w~ether Stev.e. g$.ve hirn the Shirt?
;. ;
A 'When he lertA Steve didntt bave no shi~t on.
Q But at that part~cular point, you we~e not
watch:l:ni r-u-. 1-!anson and -Steve.?
.5 Na> not really ..
6 Did you near r,r:tt. i 1anaon 11ay anything in additi>n 1
1. : to- that?
-4-"..
,;. A.
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A-.tte~ he ~$ked S.teve tor his sh'.il"t, l h,eard.
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Steve ~a-1 !',: SU:r~> brother. You .know. And I don 1 t know
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When
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you :say_: "~e/'
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inclde-nt .
Something like th-at. Someth1.ng to that ei'feet.
6' Yes ..
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A J; can say. rough,lY thtee- to
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foul' to r:tve ,rn:tnute~.
12 Somewheret .aroW1d that a.r~a. $ome.whe:re around thre-e to
five ~l'!utet.' 'P" ,: \
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14 .Q, ., . After Hr.,. ~lai').3011 and. T;.J. lett Rm,:J.;na:Cs apartment, .
15 w.nat is the next th1r$, ~~t h~pp1ened? ,
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And you we~e transported to some hQspitai?
Ye.s.
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'What ho&pital ~
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Yes, it ia.,
15 Do 1ou know where th~ bullet is located in you~
'i6. bOdJ'f ',
it , . A. Yes.
IS- .. MR. KANAREK: Calling tor a conC1iJa1o~ on hii;s part.
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l!t- ' '!r'HE ,QOURrf OV'er~u].ed.
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. ;m . BY MR. .Bt;TGLIQSI :
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. the bulle.t
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:2p .' we(l?e yol,!, unde~ the, .int.'11:+ence of al~~h~l o~ any type ot a
,. .2i dru$ du:r-ing this incident? .i ..
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l You: may an.swet'.
really noticing.
"4 3.e -taJ.k:od V'l.)'f.':l ..,t;z,aight to t1e, you k.now ..
5 BY. rm. I3U6LIOSI:
6 ~: . Pi~ you bet tbe i~pre~~ion that he was under the
influence of anythin.G,, 4+Cyho2.o.r J.rUJ.J'i
rm. Kl';JlAP.:JX; P~l.l1~G tor .:.1, con.aluuion
.9' '.l'.Ht .COUaT: At that ti:ne7
12
I1R. BUGLI0.3.:i;::
t' .,.
Your ir::;praaoion was. that he was. nop.
under ;ch~ in.f.luence of anyth:L:ne;; ic. that correct?
1,6 ','
17 now ..
18 ll
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now,.
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.2() C Have you ~vet,> oocn a rj.~r:.'!J3l' oi' the Black Pantheri.?
21 A. . NQ, I haven' t
~
,,, 22 e Did irou tell CJ.iarles'. !iap,~on that you were a
membel'.' of the BJ.ack Panth0.t's'?'
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Did :you~ a.t,,_ any, 'tib'i.~~ 1 tn' the.
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Q, Did 1ou ev~J:f See IJ!ex, Watson after that -ever,.t-t. '
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A; N.o.,. l ha\l".en t
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r;. .MR~ :BUGLIO.Sl: Thatik you.
. 7
~ No turther quest1ons. '
,:. '.!3-'. . .
,UR. ~ITZGERALD:. No questions, y:our Honor.
~
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Tl'IE COUR~: Mr. Kanarek!
1,$.. KAN4REK-: Yes~. yaur Honor..
'1'3
.14 .
CROSS-EXA.~lINATION
15 .
r 16 BY ~R.. KANAREK:
. '
Q I1Ir. Crowe~ how :;J.on_g nave ybu been a dope pu~hex-?
17' . ' ' ' . ' '
' ' rm. BUGLIOSI,:' 'rhat assume-a: a. tact not iii evidence.
. ' ~HE COua-r ~ .- S1_1Qtailned .
29
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MR4 XUAREK:
THE COURT:
tour. Honor;
Mo eoment?
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Q, Not you?
4, . ' No.
:5- ' In other words, .y.ou protec,t you:1;:"se.lf', Jou_ give
6 the doi;eto aomebody else- to $ell; is thEt right?
1 '
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.'8 !,IR.. EUQJ:,IOSI: I object on the groun,Q. tnat it ,is
9- 1r~elevant..
, a
11 , Honor.
:1:2 ~Im W!TUESS: I1ay I st,ea.k_ -to my- attorney, pleaaef
-
i:t'HE COURT: Y~a.
lil TRE W:tTNESS ,. .- May I speak to you,, S-1~? .
15 MR. .FITZ'dERALD: Fo:J:t the record, s.ir., your nallle?
16 r-m. t,IOB..OAl-1-: Jrunea Edwo.rd f,I6~ijan.
rr : - '(.James Edwal7d. r.Io~gan app:roaob.es. the witne$s .
-is stand and'. -speaks to lw. 0:t"owe . )
19 mt. _KA'.llAHEK:; .May I h~ve an answe;r?
' ,20 THE COUR'f: The obJ-eot::1.on .i-~ t?ttsta.irted.
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BI MR. KANAQK: -, ,, .r ~ i ;
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Q, . How long.,, .Mr. 01:'owe, how long had fQU -k.nown
. "l . .
.,Mr. Wat.son?
~ . . .
-A. . Prio~ to the t:tm.e- he went to "!0- 1fhat tiine. a.re yo~
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speaking: o.f'? -What. _dQ. 7.ov; mean? Now.-.,. then, dr wnat?
tl !J:lhen .
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.The time tbis t,:appened?
Yes.
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how. l0t;1gth~ r-delsi
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:p;Ld ,omeone. introduce y~u. to Mr. Watson? .
11
A. Y_es.
Q Wnq int~od~ced you to Mr. Watsont
, .l? -
. A. Rosina.. , '
24
Al! I ""11derst~o~i.Jes
-~a . -
Q. Atld was Rosina~ gir1 f~iend.of Mr. Watson'sf
Now,. rou knew t-Iiis, How: did. you tmderatand that
6 " .
. 1 -~ Now, you_gave '$2.;400' to i1i. Wa-ts.on; is that
right?
....
~
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~ Uo; I didn't give ni,m anyt,bing .
.9
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Yo-u didn't .Si.Ve him anything.f '
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A.
Xou~ money; r:tgh~?
Yes.
lp ~- What were YO\l gotng to do. -- let me ask you thls1
..
17' What. wa:s supposed tQ happen tor. the $2)4.Q.O?
20 Q. Yo.u can't.?'
21
No., J: donit~
_w.~11, you: de~l in marijuana:,, do t you?
23. MRe- .BUqtlOS~: '!oll-r Honot-~ this assUllJ,eS rac-ts not ;i,n
24 &'Vi <;ie;nqe , . .
BUGl;,lOSI 1 I:r.relevant.
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. .e w.i.th. any-0ne
Do not convc,.-r.&
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Tne Oo.UI't wi11 rece.is'unt:.t,1 1:45
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(Wh~r~up<;in.,_ at 12: ou, noon the co.urt was in
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TH$ COURIJ.1:
.
All the
....- ... o----
uetendants except Mr. Manson are
&. . p~e;sent; all counsel and all _jurors are present.
. '
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BERN-ARD CROWE,
.the wit_nes;ij on the stand_ at the time -ot the noon ratle.ss:,
resum!id the stand and testified fui..-th~r as follOW.SJ
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Q .Pardon?
19 A. LQt~apoppa.
Q How. .do you spell. tb~t?. ~ '
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21 A. ~-o-t-Q-o-p....o-p-6,.
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Mo, .she did not he,u - me say that ... Sbe
THE WlTl,lESS:
~he cou-l...d
saiu that .on ~e~ own xsec9gn:.1zanc~, t1.s ur1~ t~at
16 . scar e whoever kne~ whe~e his whereabouts we~e.
1-7 : L~taax,oppa~ wc.uld you l:1-sten to ihe ques tion ?
'l'.'he quee t:ton was Whether Roa~na said tha t you
would kil l
1l8
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ppa~. got
19.. eve~yone: ootJ ,n~t ed ,~1th Tex unleS:$ you,. L.otaapo
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THE COU~T: mi,. Kanare1;t either u.oe that micr~:pht>n~ '
properly ol.'- putit dQWn.
3 r,m.. KANAREK: I dcm 1 t know what your Ho.nor .de~nis; .as
4 prope~.
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GiV(;\ s., as best you can, as close to t;be
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(\ . ' ,4ny othe,: term? ~ . - ! '
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Mary Jatl,e.iz ' ~ , . j < '
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A No. l don I t -use that trma~ .~t i$ a \1ttlf .t;oo'..
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femitiine"
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f$.rst saw. Mr. Watson?
A Like I sai.dj around 10:30, 11;00 Qclock.
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2 ' Q, lOt 30 or ll :.00 odlock. in the evening~ 1 is that
Yes.,
And in whose pxesenQe were yo~ 1.rhen you fitst
saw ~."Watson that evening?
. 7 .A ~tev.e, nosina, Del, Jim and myself.
,.,,
8 Q All risht,.
No-w, wb.a.t i.s Stev.~' s full narn~'l
, lO'
Steve Soor.pi.
11 Can you spell ~hat.?
His last name I don't know. Scorpior ~corpi~
,15
Sqmeth~ng like that~
Q ~1tere does Steve Scorpi liv~?
In Braokly,;t.
{
~
' , .
.~ . ,, '
16 . t1here?
' : i ,, '
17
:Brooklyn, ,~~ew. York. ,.
Where is lie ~ight nQWi ; -
' '
19
He is i :Srooklyn;
. . ... '
20'
Q He is in Brookiyn right'. no-w? . . t-.
' ' . f
A Yes,
' . .
.. ,('
~~ ! :. t I'. .' '
24
You m.ean, you can bring 11~ to this c:ou.r~:toom.?
25- :-
A Yes. R~ is 1illing to c01:ne.
26, ,
' '
0. Would you see to :tt that he gets here? .
. . ?l,.737
. ,
2
i:li Btoolq1yn?
It is not my job.
'Well,_.let Jne ail3k you thi.$: What i~ ~s addr$8$
.
t3a fl$.
,
~;;' J ;,,
'
BY l1ll.. ltt.1:NAP~K:
-. ~
A'
10 wha.t7
7008, t-ioodi:ow Wil$on Drive, Hollywood.
' ,,, '
,.-.:_;,.1o0r .
\JICI ave.can
~.-., . ......---
. :?,
4
Ctowe? .
A . No.
i-m.. RANt~K:
It . is a house,
Hr"' Bug1iosi has -reprea.an.ted that lJ,e
5 will .ask 'Mr. Crowe for this ~dd-ress.
6 Will you repr.esent to us that you will give
.7 Mt .. l3ugliosi --
MR. BUGLlOSl.: 1'bis ie ir;relev~n t, this type of
question.~ ~nd I object on that ground ...
10 ME. .. KANAREK: This is, the only chance ~e have,
n yo'l:!X" Ronox.
TBE COURT! Continue with your examinatio n,, ~,.
' . 13
15
Kanarek.
18 Kanatek .
. examination; youir
MR. i{ANAREK: That is p-att of my
'
20. . Honor.
.21 n:E COJJR'i.": 'rhe tibJettto,n ,Ji. sustained ..
~ -~ ;~ ;, ~
.. ' ' <
' , I. . ,
-' 25, :
'"26.
Q; Well, sir 1 then ,the:r;e ._a:$ Ml;. SCOl'.'p.~/ @d . -~
yourself., -and a person that you called l)!.12'
- . ; - ..
Ciek>Drive.com
,
aa-2 1: A lle is deeeased.
.e 2 ''
'3
And what was, his full name.?
t have no. knowledge of his last nm;ne,
'What1
A I have no kn-owledge of his last nam..e.
6 Q -Ra<l you ever seen biip. tefore th,;1.t night?
~'
'12 Q What?
1.4 . ,.
A we was 1/e'fl.y t:lose fri~ndl:J hut I didnt~ know
bis la4t name t or l .have forgot.ten it, or whatev.et .
I se1:1 .
16 And -do you know -.mere he 1ived?
l7 A 'Reno, or Frisco.
js Do you kn.ow l1.ia address. in that area?
~
"'
. ;!,!?-
''
No, I dont"8
2() , ~d you, at: any- t-1tPe> knowh$.s addreas in
~c
2i Ren()?
.. 2?, ' A No .. 11
) f.~ .i-
'25
26
A
Q.
No..
"tou can~
~
'- ' .
\ ...
' .
-.
1
2
I ki
Q
lf(). I won't.
Have you ever been to ~s home in Reno?
A No.
3
4
Q, Do you know an:,one in the Loa Angeles area
that knows him?
5
6
A That knew him?
Q Knew him. Pardon me.
7
A Yes.
8
Q And who would that bet
9
A He 1a not in town now, you know.
10
Q. What is the name of this person?
11
A Bob.
12
Q What is Bob 1 a last name?
13
A That is all I know. Bob.
14
Q. And when did Del pass away?
15
A I am trying to remember.
16
He cme to tba hospital a few times to see me.
17
About three or f:ouz JIIOll.ths, something like
18
that, after the incident.
19
Q And did be pass &'lllay in Loa .Angeles?
20
A No. On the way up to Reno, from leaving
21
22
San rrancisco.
Q And do you know what state he died in?
23
A An automobile accident.
24
Q I see.
25
And where was that automobile accident?
26
CieloDrive.can
~ . , '
,?1 '76.1 '
:,A,
3 Q, . Do yo know if it was in the State of
,f,' , California?
s Y~s, it w~s in tho State of California.
A So I hea'td ..
8 Do you know the name of the other p.rson?
'9. ' w. :CUGLIOSI: lrrelevcnt, your Honor.
. 10' tour Honor* this :ts our only chance
MU.. lt\NAREK!:
11 iot discovery; to obtct.in this. t;e have no way 0 taking
' 12 depositions ~with the -witness ..
13 .THE COURT: Never to.ind the argl.1lllent t Ml:'. KanSl,."el(. ..
14i
,, . 'iu may unswei- th~~%1<i~~~9n.
15 Tlill WITNCS$r 1:1hat was the question again1
. 16. BY t;m,. lt\.NA:REI<:.
1r. , n Do you know if there was ano.ther pets on with
1s th!s gent:lqman when 'he passed al'tny?
3,9 A There wera some people in the car but I
20 don1t t~ally know,, you kx\ow,- who they we;re.
' .
2r ,. ~. t'ou don t know th~ name$ of any o.f' them?
22
- j
25
.-~ CieloDrive.con,
2lt74? , ..
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.
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. . .
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A No.
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iardoJ 1., , . .~ . .
...
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;.,._;. i"~ ; :' ''t "I ! t ~ i' ~I ' J ~:
4
.San -F-rario-is~b to Reno. .
.
And it wa_s :J.n the State- or .ca.lifQrnia?
{ ' ~
' = ,
-; ~
.'
5 Uh-huh .. ~
,- '. i '
. - .
~
'6 . A:nd it .sthrae ULonth$ afte~ th:ts incident that
1
,;;
8 A. Ye.s.
9 Row, alsQ in th$! aut.omobile be$1des yo1,1r~elt was
io -Ros1.na.
li- WarJ she 1-n. the automol:>:tle besides rourseli' and
12- . MI'._ Wat.son and Del and Sco:rpi?
...
,
14
Ye~.
And wb.at 1$ Rooinu:ts last name?
The tirst time I .met he:r., too.t
I don't know.
-16 was that night.
\
You had never a.een he;.r befove, 113 ,that l;'li:gp.t?. ''
18 l{ot to my memory,, no ..
. . - '
'. 19 '
Md on this Qc<?asion who was it tnat a:rranged
20 . the m.eetJpg between yourael:f' and Mr. W1.ttson a,nd' Rqsn.a?
2i Del .
'
be-l.., the pertJon that pas.sed away? ',
23 A. , Un-huh .,
He arranged that1
,e.
,, '
25 lea.
\
~ow 1 we;s Del a person that, you knelt to be
21.,744
~ '
l-iR ~ BU.a-~;coJI: I~.re_l,evant, your lionQr.
i , ,1 .j- Iii ...
subject~
-. ~ : ~~
, ~''*I ' a. Q
. 9
!lr. Del, or D.)l ccnc..:rnin& tili.J, -wou,1.d ;rou tell. us what
' 1.0 the -conver&ation ;;0.;,, b.:;t;,1.;!.m you~::.:cJ. a:-"d Del concerni1;1_g
11
the traneaction, ~.,.licl".11 lu::;.::r oo-cu;rrt:<.ij you say., w1tit
, 12
r,1r.,. WatGonf
---
1:3
:. :r knen ev:Ltlen.tlsc 4-t. th.r.: timtl ... - ile wtls suppqaed to
JJ,
15
_g_ot it ..before.; anct' tb.at waG it ..
16
/1.n~ I d.i(.l.iJ' 1, g_u:'.!:;.;tlor...:tl.1~ ;10 don't question
.17
ea.<;h oth~p; '! juot tul:u i1~t: ,;;,1; hi:,; 1101-id., ~ou. l:no'W., your
. IB ' .
WOJ?d iu your b~ncl., :,ou tno.;, .1c i.:. V;;t _by that.
_ 19
I,:r,. t:r..taon ditl you have thi& corJV0t,1at.:ton with the pe~a-on
you eall ,Del ooi1.cor...1in.:; til:!.5 tr2.n.!'!.c.ction?
At r:.y houso> you knoir.. .
23
,, <
. '
' 01? toteai,opl)a.., now,
21., 745
.:, l
3.
with the J;iereon you call Del?.
A.. Actually l oniy ha.d. a few worts I_ talked -..iith :Pel,
and be asked me would.! come al?nz, and. I did, and that was
,4 ; it,'
.'
5 ~e~llY', I JutJt kept:, qu:t~t most ot the time.,. y:ou
. 6 know !I ~nd tben Qe went "!n and. tool{ care of' the trans~ct ion,.
'
l'
c:'
~
1
..
the l'Jusi~ess .he had tc paJ,te catte 0' ..
"
. . '~
~~
j .,,,. -8 .. q ul:row longlwa:s :l.t you had tne cortvers ation with
.., '
9 ~ .. Del.>, -o~ Pel, ;bei'ol'e you met w:ith .Mr .. Watson?
: !,,"" ~ ~ ,_ ' i ' \. -: - .. '... ' ; ~ - '
'1;2 t
, c.otlvers.a.ti_on. w1tl1 Mr- W(I.t~on?
' ,.
'l3 ~ Are :Jou saying the t.1,:st i;d.me: I was "'iritrottuoed to
....
C .. .. ' I
'
,I. ~
' , I
~ ~
I j i <
him p;r1o:t: to the time I ha(l <il, oortversa.t:t;Qn .with Del, is that-
1
. 14
,. '
:-15 w:tla.t YO\l are al:!king m:~? .
'
J6 ~ Yes, I wXl1 aak that.
i
i.t A Well, ;t_t must hav:e. bee~ about, let:' s t'say l.O i-00,
18, iO.t30, somethi.ng lke that, in between that time. Thex-e
. 19 ' wasn t much
'
he l:ut4 to say .
'
'
25 right!
'
215 A. .About lQ-:00 o~ l0:30, .lm not exactly what time 11
,~
__ .___ 1!'"1\le.COITI .. '
;r was.
2 Is tbat ~'bout the time that he. came t-o your
house?
5 Ha4 he been
'
thor'!.bef.or.e- this conversation took '
.6
. ' 7 Who.~ Del?
Jar. Del ..
Plenty.of times, sure.
I!) Pardon?
;E'lonty of times ..
J.2 All z,ight) on.thi.s oooasion he- came to your house,.-
rs.- what time. did h~ .come to. your hoticse on this night?
14 A. , That is what l said., around 10:00 or 10;30 he
15 ,came to my house &nd he toJ.d ie wha.t he had to tell mec.
16, From that point 11,e left, It wasn 't -- I did ric:rt;
n . serid hitl to a third des;~ee or what, I. aid not s'end hi.m to
18 any Q-h~ncrQ:g
. -l!f I just ac:cepted :J.t .-
.20,, And you the1,1, went with him to meet Mtt. WatsQl'l:;
21'
.
"' ' :22 Yes.
~ ~ ll ..
, 25 .;you s,poli:e -~1th-ID.el~ and th~; :t:!;me;":,y.ou:met -W1,:\;~ '.1\1~ .. ~a.ts-on 1 ilOi 0
:i : ~ ,, ', .. I ~ . -' ., - .
much- time went by'/
.. \
CiCc~-he.com
... ... ~
-
'
. ... ' -
_ 21.. 7.47
' ''
1- ' A. J: would $tty ro~ghly between 10:30 and ll:00.,
s ,:
4
about .an. hour reallr~ say betwe-ert 10:00. and 11:.00
ihat i~ when w~ was all toge.tner on our way to
El liiortte, . aur:tng that one-l1Q~r peli:i..od.
' '
':10 anyone. -p:ren~nt at tbe e-onversation nhen you and De.l spoke._ -
'
11 concerning fi. p:ropoze-d meet:tp.g with a person i1ho tutned out to
, 12
be r~ .. Wateon1
rn. . i, t'las. anyone e-lse preaent at the et>nveraat:Lon -on
14 :wood.row .lfil.oon Drive oth0r than you1?,3elf and Del?
15 r-~ Yes 1 one o~he:t",
16 '
Who is that pe:raon?
~
17-, A J,:un.
, -is ~- Jim.:? What- is 'Ql.u la$t 11amt3-1
,i i9- '~
.1-<.. :t don 1 t t:now. ,
,20,
4 ?u don't .know J'im' s laa,t name?
\ -~ ...
it A. no ...
" -22 Q. ' Wfi:e;.re. do~s, Jim l i"?.e'l _
23 - .~
.
''
I don't know.
"
24 ~ Pardon?
,.
_, 25, A, .I don rt know.' .
I
.'
.
.
~.
t
. ,:. .
' . CieloOri\le.corri .
-
-
l 'A.. No-.
&
4
Q
Q;
:Ooe:s he have .a phol\-e nUDlQer?
~Witne~s ,shakea hea(i in the n~gative . . )
Pa.1>don?
-' ' . .5 !',don't know how to_get 1n touch wi.th hiia. ' I
, ~ Have you, seen Jim between that time and this (la.y'l
., 1 Yes .. -
,._
;;, 8 :
It you want to get. hold of Jim., how would you dQ
9 ;tt:?
iir . J.. Xwo~ldn't know
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.23
24,
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,26
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Pardon?
I wouldntt know~
. 1~ T /y - ' ...
~ ";) r
1~ He is from Mi~it.Florid a?
15 A .] '
I ',
24
'
'
.
~
'
,-_;. . ,,l
~
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21,
-: (Wh~reupon the repo~ee~ zeads the pending
~
~4 '
4,
MR.., K'.AN.AlIBK:
been gone into . We ar.e enti tl~d to, -have the c~l ete conve:t ...
satlo n in.nccordance.l'ltth th~ Evidence Code.
Is
5 TH.E COURT: - Is that ~hat y-0u are call ing :f;or?
' .
..,. '8
,,
. 'T!W COURT: The conv ersat ion,?
9, MR. KANAREK: Yes, your Hono,;, desc ,;rip tion, . which
JO has to be done verbally~
1'l - ~ COtmT: Ov~11ruled, yo may .anSW'er ~
12. Do you unde rstan d the que, stion 1
.TH$: lJlTNESS: Wou!d Y<?U ret,~ at it 1 plea se .
13
, i8 C
'
conts:ct in this narcotics ita:le; how di~ ~1- \
'
' '
-19
~o '
4esa ribe him.?'"') .. , : . ~ .
- ___ --
CieloOriw.com
. ll,_7"52
..
.~
4'
. THE Wl'I'NEas.:.
' ,
the que stio n wa.ia., did Del. c;le scti be
what pur t tha t Chart~~ Tax was playing1
THE COunT: How dtd he tlescr~bc ~atspn?
di.du rt. .
Tim UITlIBSS: He: -didn It z-e ally . He
' '6
DY MR, ICANliMt: .
Illia t did he say? .
8
tha tit:. ~.
,. 9 Ho ~ai d nqt hin g pcx-.~a:tning to Tex at
t- you
10 :r tlel l.; you r sta te 0 mind was suc h tha
ng to sel l nar cot ics
11 t<1ere ~oi ng to me at someone v1ho 'tms goi
12
.to you, rig ht?
hin g tc;,
13 Not tQ nt~., he wnsn1 t :going to sel l not
14
15
.
m.e .
.t.L
~ ~
. i1 , t : ,' -~ -. ,'
~
...
,
ill I '
premi$e-s,
I
-
~ , 22 .
,rig ht, ~ ; '
l
A Yos.
24 - ' ' ,. f
tha t ;th i$
_Now; you r sta te of 'mind, ~rr.-, . ~bw ~,
/o.
e
' ' -
25 ,
26
'.},
$2400 was goi;ng to bf! t,;a~sie,rrec;l to
some.person th.at Del
CieloDrive.con,
' '
. '} -spoke. ?f for the ,purpoijes -of. ,gettin g narcot ics-~ is that
-,~
4.
~fght?
A Yes .
;7. Q Pardon?
'lg answer.
11
MR.,. '.Bt,TGLlOSl: Ir:re1e vant.. .
. 12 MR. KANAREK: Your Honor~ it is most releva nt ..
..
.a,,
13
14
:J.5, '
the- argum
-
ent in front o,f the jury.
. 1,tt.. Kanax"ek, I told
'
Su-sta ined If
',
22 your attent ion to yolir state .of ;mind, wh~n yo~ l~ft 'Woodrow " I ' ~ '
I , ,
;!3 ; -
" '
21 .. 754
I
: . '
'. '.
~
s
4
. . Iilari,j uann ... _:
Q ls it .n fnir s:t::at!em.ent t11at -wh~n you lef't1.,
. .
_when you loft -- pa,zdon mo .....
.
s. '' .' r:c:ior to. ti..a time thct ~au left) Deb -someii~w or
.- oth~.~escr:t.bed ~he p~rso~, ~ h~n being that was ~oing
"
,t ~' I
JS- ..
. . .
t1ns yaui: stats- of td.nd G'-'ch. ~hat _i:-1hen you left
14' : . i'1oodt'ow ltilscn Dr:tvc you had in mind that a n-o.rcoti.c -
t~ansacti9a was "going. to take. place 'toit:h the person that .
.
. . . . . ,,,
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21. 7t;;t::i
10-1 l Now,. w;l.ll you describ~ for us ro.ur $tate o:r mind
, 2 a$ to whetner you thoght this pe~son was a man, a woman,
i
Qr wl;i.at?
0
Q, - B,Qsina?'
l
. ' '
:fes.
-~
. '
, . rs,, That is the person who turned out to be the
- ' ',' .
. 1 X6 . pe:r,on; tbat you were. -gt,,ing t<>~ me~t?
-. ' .. .J'
17.
~-. A. , Right.. , ': 1 ,
A That's right.
22 so you then proceeded, you then'procee4ed to go
with Del and Jim.
- ,t>id Jim -~-ccompany. you?
25, Yes.
- 26 YOU 3 Del and Ji;m.
c went tO -Rosin~t s on Franklin
CieloDrive.com
21,756
5 :.
Avenue?
's rtght?
9 " A. R~glit.
.
l2 Q
J.5,
-'A. In the back .s~at;.
~
J.6 Q, .' , And when you got to this add.res~., did you get out
f ~ .~ '
l
',
""'.~ - '
I
18. ' A. .. Yes.
: ',
' "
. "'
,.,
~
,
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.,,,. I~ Q; : And you. ,sot ou.t of th~ automobile, anq. then what
,.;
20 oc.curl"e~? ~
.,. . ...
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~ '
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. '
1i.,_
'
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"' 2Z tor phy~icalmovement
~ ~ - ' t ) ' '
e. 25 No. Ju~t I.
26 You got out alone~
l Yes-.,
' 8<' who had the money'at the time that you ~rrived at,
9 the Franklin Avenue aduresc1
l did.~ '
' 11 And so, you got out of the oar aft.a~ Del got out
12 ~ oT the car;. 1s that rif;ht?
. 13' p"!' \fuat location?' What are you $peaki~g about?
l4 El iIonte or. he.re?
i5 Cl F~anklip Avenue.
:16 Did you zo first tQ Frankl.in Avenue be.tore you
1
11,. . , went <to,' E,l r,~onte?
'
.
~
\.
}
.
.i? Q, llf quea.t.ion is-: Wben you got to F:rankl:fl-n .,A.venue,
A. No!' I didn't.
' l '
". q ~-. ,, '\.Did anibody get~ out, -o-r t.be automobi].e?
,.
2a , A. ... fe$. Evel:'yone else bv.t myse1:r.
~4 Q ~ , 1bu m.ean~ Jim. and D~l got o:ut of the automobi:le?
25 Right;,
Q -And they went., disappeared from your view?-
A. Ub-huh~
21)758
ls that right?
l
Uh-huh,
2
4
!low lon,g were they out .or your view7
I ~an't remember, but it was a short period of
.$ .
r,ttnie, be"Ga:use I got in a eonve.rsa.tion with some otber fr,iend$
'
that was living on t-he preJ:rlises at that tim.e an.d they was
6. :
!
7 ,. : tall.tin$ to me in the ca~, t;1.omething :J,.ike that.,, as I can
'".. '' reme~be~ vaguely.
-9, . Well, when y,ou got to the ~;rankl:n Avenu~
10,. :: acldress., you did not e;et out ot the car; right?
A. , ijQi; at the first. approach of the apaftment ~
13 -
tp Franklin, :r didn't get o:u.t of the car. But on the
14
+'eturn .f.rom tp.e wnole trip, rgot out of the car and I went
ip. ttie ap_artment~
i5
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. . .21,759
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$. A No, t didn 1 t.
-g . Q.. All :right.. 1-lho got .out?
.1 A Del and Jim.
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All 'tiijb.t
_9 'i . -rhen they di..Saj;>pestt:!d. ;from you~ view-; :tight?
'A Yes. cor:.rect.
l1 Q llow long wet-e they t;one from ;rot.n:: view?
12, .A . P~rhaps ~en. ot .fifteen n,t:Lt.tute$... :t don t know.
13 t. c~~ tem'e}.l1ber, ~ea1ly,- the ~l(aet time.. Roughly> .1
JD,ean.. A few minutes or so . X doii-'t: knowi. I. ca.nt
, 15. recall.
1 wasn:t titnil'\g it-- I wasnt. waiting. alone.. I
11. 1vas .talking. ~o someone, and tha~ passed the t;i.me a;way,.
, _.1s q, ~ W,ere_ you t_alking to"?
..1_9 A Just a f;r:iertd. . I ean1 t exactly remernb.er who
:2a . it 'Was,. the people.
2'f ' People, I was talking to was people that I knew>
~2 . .associates. or $omething, yo.u ltnow, sl~ghtly. :
.2~. :: . 1 You h~d just come. from 'Woodrow .wi,l$ofi .Dt'ive; .
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.2,4. :ts th~t ~ight> Mr. Crowe? -
. 25 A That is corret:t.-
26'. ' (1
,.., By what means did y~u communicate with thia
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4
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. with isontCon~ about: nothin g.
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I an t rCraf:!mber ~that.
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am. involve_d
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Goodhyo. u lt is someone you. nee., tltttt rou had baen.
6. ,
introd
. uced to, in thaiz company.'
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, : , You know, y.ou say uz.li 11 and 0 Go.odbye, n ypu know.
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north and south street ? .
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26 ..1 ?lo:rth and sou~h~ y.ou say?
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A Right:.
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21 .. 762
lOb
i
r.;r. Crowe, my question is as to what street runs
2
north and -south th~t is clQsest to tnis add~eaa.
3
X l.m not aski~g for a $tl."'eet that :t-u,ns east and
6. lives o~ 11:ved?
7 From my J ude;ntent, my memory, like Highland is east _:
,,".
l}' and La ;Brea is west.
9 Am I r~ght? o~ what?
10 Oi I don't know!} r,1x-. Crowe.
1)- A. You can. -say -~ast or weflt . , and I can give you an
12 q.D.swe~; :but no.rth and south f the 9nly thins I can ea1,
south ts Hollywood Boulevard.
13
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14 :Now., north., I don 1 t know; ,unless y--ou go up. -one of
J.5 the stree~s and go up ih the bills, ~nd I qon't knQw the
11> tietne .of the street beyond Franklin. \lP in the hills.
i9:
.Q. Well, can you relate j:o Highland Avenue; wl.11:ch ia
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2.1,763
s
. A. Motel
4 Yes, l do.
5 ~ How a~ is it from the Landmark?
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6 A. ;I couldn:'t give you an et'aot ef?t1mate. Maybe I
,.,.
7 C<\m ;aay _.,.
t!I
,P. :8' Q: G1,.ve us the numb~~- o.f feet away from the Landmark.
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. 20. thetn:~' 11:haw a~e you. :eee~tng',.n f!t cetera.I and so- forth
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CieloDrive.COITI
21,,.764
4,
Did you know the name of this person1
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I couldn't rec~ll that nqw~ no.
Then, when Del and J'i:ui, came back 1 they -came
5
;7
Je$.
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Rosina and Text ~ight? Is that all?
Yes.
12
And then when Rosina and Tex came with Jim and
Del, diu those fou~ paople all get into t4e automobile?
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. 13 '
14
Y.~s, Uh-hub.
15 .
And arte~ --
A. It would be ti'.ve., wouldn't 11;?
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Q, Pardon? Four people ~nd you woulQ :make rive;
18
right.
.
'19.
l{.. Right,.
20.
Q,, Okay.
'21
Nows af'ter those fou~ peopl.e got into the automo-
bile.with you, wa~ there a conversation?
23
Yes.
24.
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21 .. 765
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.,? Wou:ld
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Y,ou. tall. us what .was,. $aid
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by eac:h p-el:'son
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' .:tS I just -can.l t, roznember what the converSAtion was.
14. .based upon,
15 i Uould you please t~ll us wh~t was sa:t.4 by
16 '. each .per.son?
g A 'I couldn't recall th~ cpnversa.tion.
1~ _You. mt'Hinj as. far aa :t;ntroducin.g, l eltplained
' 19. that. to. ypu.
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" ., ,. '"" 20 As far as the 'tll..lSic,, I ctm t remember the
'21 convor.sation,. but I know- it was basically al,out the type
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22 of music you like cl t,rciups, whatever, songs OJ: someth1ng~
23 I don rt krtow... I can rt r.elll,elJlbet' ~
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Q' You said socmething right tvhen those. our
people .came hack to the car, wlt~n. those four people -~ntere~
the .autom.ob:tle7
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Yes .
Q Would you tel l. qs --~hat
you $ai d, Mr,. Crowe?
Te~.
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6 I sai d, '.'Hi, 11 and sho ok hi$ _hand~ . .,: " <' \ ' ' - -1 ,'
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12. or whatever.
tion was
- 13
Q. . Then at .sometime the nar cot ics tran sac
14 d:i.sc.u$sed; :right:?
?
.After the se ),eo ple came b.ack to th~ c-a,:
A Not rea lly .
J:7 We11, you say t?,ot rea lly- . What do you mean. by
:18 tha.t-1
- 1? No~ l caxv t reme.rnb~r any con ver $at ion on
the
. -2Q . 'Way.
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. It 11as jus t the ba_sic. cas ual convers
at:i.on bet,,eca
y kne ~ ~hat.. we ha~ .
, th~ peo pl~- s in the cat' , becat.t:se 'We ll-lr' ead
.
2a . to do. The~e waa no nee-d 1n .
disc.us:si.rtg :t:.t.io l-Jhat ..d()---yotr
t" _......_.. .............. '
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'Want to (l:l$ cus s. abo ut -;Lt ?-...
24:
."--- !~ - -:tt. wil. l be done or,'
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you know,. one or the oth er.
mean, when we get there',;-
CieioOrive.corn
21.767
Q Pire ating your atte'Q .tion -tQ your state .of rtdnd;
Mt. Ci-ott1e.,, -would you t~11 us when did yo~ firs t think
that
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you were. goi'p.g to El l,tonte that night?, When did lt fits t
4 . com.e i:uto ,Yo"r ll1ind. that ;yo~ were going to El Monte:?
5 A Afte r I was $!~fn ditec tton$ and I was sseing
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.Pat-d on?
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A, So1neone ha_d t~ld nte ,_ u.Make a turn of. here , n
-n .; you know, et cete ra..
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,12 'Who was telli ng you? Who was. di~ecti-rtg you?
l c,,an. 1 t remember,. reall y.. I real ly csn 1t.
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rem.emJ;e:r::..
-donlf;: know.,
lt could ha11e been t'ex, Del, , Jilll. or Rosi na.
I ca~ t ~b er that close lyl'
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y ~
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--er'"=iYe.C:
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~ Everybody knew what they had to do?
; .o~
'.2 h. what tbet, were gotng ta:, do,. or whatever ..
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.JUS. s ,ryy tb;-,t e"".eryo ne -- wow -- what are
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1 you doini :t,o r.10?
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on Woodrow Wilson
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??? 15 P.:. Do~s that have anythin:::;. to d,o with :my foi:mer
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uold ..nan n tl1at- Ros.ina -- or JJ!ex was spoken
old man,, .
-0 as Rosina s
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1'1ould yciut.'e11 us, what is jour State or mind.,
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MR. l3UGLlOSJ;:
f
i:rrei-evant.
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Q,' You have heard the word ttoid ma.nu be.tore; ts that
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.20 l:'ight'f .
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. im,. l?UGI;.IOSI: That ~s ir:i:-e:.tevan:t
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22 Tli)l COURT: Sustained.
,23, DQ you hav.e any more ex~ino.ti-o~.. 1-:r. Kan~.elt?
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Yes> ~OU!'
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Proceed with it
26 IlR. KAMAREK: Q
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CieloDrNe.com
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3 Honor.
Busta:tn0u./ . '+ ''
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;( ' i4 Do .,"tt.ou knou ~l'hat I mea.n b~?., a l?obot? '
. 15 Yes~. I do
D:1.d he loQk like hG had L:echaniual arrus J
l7
Enr;lizh '
. lan.:;u~ge ui thout Zi.nS inpedir.:.ont,. J.'i.r. Cl'owe?
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po.w~r wnen h',; wa.lkad?
power, or did he seem like someon, had strings on h~m, a
puppet? :Old he: look 11~~
P;ld be aeem
a :puppet to you?
ti> 'wal.lC under his own
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20 Q, 0t1: ,your way io El- -Ilfoute :i ~ did.: 'riw. ' W~tsop .~s.~op and
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22 xm. BUGL;!OSl-: ttilli;}, 1,s., ,$1.liy j yo~l:' lion,Q,r, a.n(d '. l \,.111
23 object on ~hat ground.
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THE COURT:
,. . Sustained. '
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- :29 you te~l u~ where- you were> N:r,. ,Oro,,;e?
On rout" way to. El MQnte, would
Whert were you ~d
'. wbere w-.ere the res.t ot the people in t'he ca~?
CieloDrive.can
21,772
3, A:
Wllo ' was ',dr:t v~g'2
I was.
You were?
5. ' .
, 6 Will you tell .us "-!~.~~ /t:he rest of' toe people
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,rt . : :tn the bac~ seat oh my te r l'..',i.ght Rosina was in the mid4le
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~3- Tb.ere were five people 1n the car, right? Five
I
lf ~-eat.a,,. 'l'he cat had bucket seats, just enough ~pace fo~ the
?-& ,people.
J6 . <t Wae Rosina s.itting next to !1!' . Watson?
17 A. Yes,; Certainly.
18 4 4,rtd by what te.:rm did she adQ.reas Mr. Weitson; <lo
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19 you know? Do you remembe~?
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. 20 A. Tex.
.2'!-. Q And what di_ha c~ll her?
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22 ~ o~ Charlie. One o~ the other~
. ~a: Q; What did he ca.lJ. ,be?'?
2 A. I can it remember, -bepause .mostly when. l heard --
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25.
26
T$ COUR':C:. Neve:r
-qu~s1;:Lon .. ,
m:Lno.. You have a;nswe:t'ed tlle
Ciek>Drive.com
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21.77?.
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6 A tall, th:J,.n siri.," that :i~, a::1.~_.. : - :r ...
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She wa.s a won:art ~ you kno,1
She wasn't-a teenager?
No.. She wa.s a. itoman..,. a t11-grown woman...
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~o -I was drivinfh, ;remembe:r.. You know, I wa.13nrt in th~
2l back seat . I was dr1 v-ing and Ile was _on ~y far left. So
22 .tn.at. would make :t,e slightly diff':Lault tor me to 1001:t .at
~a hinJ.11 ,
- 24. I am loqkins at Rosina if I am looking thro~e;b my .
.
'2i> rearview mirro~.
LJf 26
C9aol#'-df
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~ O:;;- the s1dev1ew nd.-'.rrQr,
3 So :t . I coul<;in 't re.~llY notice his nerves,. hi$
. . .
11 . :race; or I co:uldn rt see hi'n1~ so I .couldri"' t real.).f iay.
s 'Q .But. he part:tcipat ed :1.n t.he direatiri& of you to
6 whe~e y~u were goi~S?
rt could have been him or ~omebody else.
' ' ' ,fl' 8; '' As l stated be~ore, 'I dontt exactly recall"which
9, : one .tol,;d, me to ..get the exit oft', . <;>r who w~e . .g;I. vi~_g 111e
io directi~~s -
J;l. <
Q Would yo.u tell us what ott-r~p you took?
(.-
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you t~ke the San Berrt-ardino Freeway to El Monte'?
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25- Wbe yo~.rin&lly stopped yo~ c.ar?
t
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Yes#
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1t t1as in e. residential avea where there was some
4 ht>llSGD Qn one- sid-;:- o.nd apaz,tmentz and houses on tbe other
5 side.
:' 6 On the sido 1.1herG the apartm~nts we~e 1 th1-S was
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7 . ~he apartment tnat Tet. w~nt into.
" 8' Q, And ~~ou nt.o:;,peQ. t.he car,,. r1-gbt;, at someone ts
9 reque::}t who 3~id,. nHel"e ~re
. '
nre 1t; . 'right?
lO t.. l t 1G your pat'don?
11 Q,. So~ebod!r .J.a-id,, "Ue are he!'!~ , a.top, thia is. the
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15
fl...
'I stopped. .
Q,
Someone
I Gee.
lWJ.~t !lave. said .st>mething lilte th&,1; becau&'f!
16 _.... So:-- a.fte~ you a.topped the oa.r, did; someone ~et out 1~ .
11 . the car?
J~ . Ji,. Not at that partic.u-lar timts. There was con-ver.sa,t10j~
"
,.. . 19 - . f:trs:t , .and then $omeone sot out. .
20 Q, All right:.
21 " . Tell ua. what everybody said in tb:ls eonve-11sJ;Ltion
art.er you stopped the c~-
23
'
~ex asked for tne mon~y.
. He said, Give me .the
.A 11
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aricl l s-~led.
1 looked at Del and Del looked at me and Jim,
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_ ! said: "My tmd~:t.:t~.tanding was that we would: go
4
O\lt or\ yOU_, know, jtOU . WOUld bring it~ .a,nd you WOUld CQ-llect ,
5
'-the pioney. You o.idn 't say ~e h9.d t.c> i:'e.rund it to y-ou. an,d
6
).eave y.ou. 1~
10, "r aat.d, 1tt1"e11 , r will ~ive you the money, an<! do
-iL
,,With it What tOU Want tQ. dO with it. H.
-1~ An.4. ne hesita.t~d, but he accepted. .tt.
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1'3- Ano. she ~ai.4-, "Well, I. wi-l.l make ii; up -to you'-
I can stand up toX! the money 1:t" .it .is lost., o:r whaite-ver.
.. 14
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l.E:..You
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Q. -Did yot.t <:oiint e-he m9n.ey at ani t;itn~:e wh,i
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wer e $..n ~he o~ ?
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No, t did ' not ~ hav e t'<;>, I. ~knew wruit I had
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Did anyone, -cot:1~ ;t;b.~ mo1,leyi :
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I had .
A No,, the y d:Ld uo~ h~ve J:o;, lie ~e. w /WMF ' ' J ~~ i
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13,
:Your ~o:r.d is,_ yoqr' :bond, you know 1 th:at 1$ it.
:14 ' THE COURT.: Answe,: the qu esti on;
sir ~
, Te.Jt .got .
18
Q So aft er you han ~d the xnoney to ~ex
l? out of .
,'
the car~ .righ~?' .
'Te~ got
Or aft er Del han ded :f:he -mon~y to tex
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26
A I did .
You got o~t of the car?
CieloDrive.com
21 .. 778-
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Q .All rig~t , Te~ got -out of the car and then --
Did you sea wh4re '!'ex :went?
.
4 Ile ente;G<d .into the anttan ce of an apartm ent
5 btldi ng,; li:ke dupl~x es ! gueg;s, house::; on top of eaeh
other , uext to each. other , et cet;o:r:a: .
1~.
'1 .'~ Did you tal~e do~n the numba~ 0 the hou$e?
8 Ho, I did not...
no you J:'.eme.mper t~~ ,. 1;1.tm;tber of the house?
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13 -
14 ,
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#:l.met 1:ight?
And -so 'Telt. i;lisat,p aai-cd :.Er~m.
Yes.
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yow;; vie:w at that
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. nm .WITNESij: No.
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6 A Yes ..
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Uore; io.u. tl1.c first on~~ to .get -0t of ,the -
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15 A- Yes . , , . : } '.
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16- '.''I. I-Iow much t~- wc1,1e hy :t elapse d, how much time
rt. between the. time that '!'ex. difl'qpp_e~ed. frot;ll y9ur ~ight and
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AJ.l right, you. got out..
Q then what c;l:td. you do
21 afte~ you got out?
~ I physiu all;y. rnn to- the;1 same ""e$it-, to Se(! where
~2
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23' he was ,going.
24" '
~ And yotl, ran th,:oug h -this door, r.ight'?
went throug h,.
:2_5
.26
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The same door he
The door to the apartm ent house?
yes
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liilat did you sec1
lrpthin g.
j
0, Nothin g?
5 ~ Hous~s, flo1-tars and trees.
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Q ~ Uousas,. loiter s and t:r:ces) but no Xo-x.?
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i. 1' .;,-J. Right: ... ,
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8. q,. Tex had .......
9 .A ., . .... v~sho .d
10 Q,
A Gone.
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'21' ; .. Q. Now, then* nf'ter you got out of the car did
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'l2 . on.)'ona -~l~e tllat t-1as lcft in the car get out;? :-
'23' ' A Not afte:t a pe;r:iod of .t~....
Hoi1 long -wsa it --- bcw long lu1s itt before
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out;: of the
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. around and came back arl:d' .Jim: {;\lld tnys~lf went out, ;at:iQ.'~ then
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Vat".:lous p-oreions of that area. looking for Te:s:, right?.
.A Yes.
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Did you knock at any .doors?
.A . No ..
1Z
nhat did yo. do? ,
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A Just looked atirl whatev er, just looked.
is Well, -where di.d you look?
-Athe grounds or whatever, just hoping to see
o~
17 something 'O:t whatev e,:, .some peo.ple .talkin g lot:Jd, maybe
J8
~ _,s):iade open~ maybe p.eop;le had seen them~ what:eve:r:, just --
.23
We just looked arouhd, or -maybe he tried ~o
24 sn~ak qut --on anothe r pa.art 0 the -4partm ent J>uilding_ -or
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something.
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May.be we..tou14 -catch him. It was well ove.r the
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. Ll,..6 time he sa_id it would take him. to ge.t it, wh:tc;h was a half
hour>J and he. said 15 o~. 20- rdnu~es $ the time w~ gave hlim.
4
t:he :money...
i
Zeoi. t~~h~ afterw1J.rd, after he had,
did not
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12 .l. l sai~ tho~e was a poosihility, it could have
ls been som.cone 1 s b-lind could ha.ve bocn open l+Ild he IQ.ight b.flv~
14, be~~ in that apartmentor aoine~h~ng,' just looking around,
15 jusi; look:Lns.
:16 Q I see .
~'l Ji. You 'ltnott,. just look:tni;, investigating, I iuess
.18 you. would call :i.t.. or -whntc'Vor
:Lg /md you looked at tho various apartments that
2Q ~e~e in this pnrtioule.r --
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'', ; lt Ai l1e looked
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al:'ouncl at ev,cirybody
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a:round us, beh:t.,d.
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11-7 he ould be hiding behind a step or behind a bush o~ some
~ ' . -thing.
.s THE COURT! You o.nswered the -question.
ha'.(iQ.ore o~ less -- th~t.it was gon~ and you we~e not .goiug
1,9 .. t:o .get your md.rijuana, ;right?
We.figured something mtly_have happened, he
21 got,hung up. in there o~ whatve~.
22 l mean, afte,: the nioney was given to him I
did not eel ~ight at that instant~ afte~ he left my
:.-.,.i '
.~~ .we.
~t. -,
presence; so I. guess probably, I kind of lost faith; shall
say, f~om thAt moment ort.,. I did not hav.e too much fai.th
:ltJ. that, . because l did: d~ this nnd l know the-re is a. t'eason
21 .. 784
13' :friends you ccmc back 't:o the cat-, rtg'ht? " : ; ', .
14 }l Yos, ! ctmip ba.ck . to .the c;ar, .yes_-. , '.
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ts ~ ~\.11 right,, and then Y,CJU and. Rosina a~d Jim and
16 :. . ne'1, the four of yo~ t!ten left the. area., ;right'l
11 A Yes :i just ~bout a half hour :t an hour and a
18_ half~ pet-haps.
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q You stayed thet'e an hourto an how: and a
-; 20 half~ you~ nosinn and tho tbreo- of you-; wai,ting for a
.,
;.1:1 To~ tha~ neve:r:- sho,1ed up; right?
,,;
2.2 .A. Right, uh...t,..uh..
23 ~- 1'...nd so durine, t:his p~1=iod of time of an hour
24 you h~d a gonvet'stttion 'with Rosina and the other people,
-. , 2~, ; ,':ri~ht?.
26, A Yes.
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i".nd, you felt that Rosina. wns be:lng~ tric1'ed?
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ft-,' and the two other 1,11.an an4 )loijin.a~ you felt that you w~re
,18 being e~icked, after U11 it- wa.,o 'yl.)u~ $2400 :that niote or
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less had dj.s~ppea~q-d into the duxkn~:JS of El Monte,. ;right?-
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-20
A Yeah ..
1 lla fls . 21
23_
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So your state or mind at that time was that you
,S'
& I think at that ~illie she had more to lOBe than I
d:l.d because Jlbe lost, o.i, she ha~ faith in him, ~d ~h~ iet
4
hi~ ~own. Th~t ooula not equal up to. $2,400.
6
I mean, it $a the feeling for another person o~
7'
wnatever, a.n4 ahe h~d cQnt'idenc.e 1h him...
She had confidence in Tex; and Tex bad let he~
9
down, is-th~t right?
A. i;nhat 1 a right .
10 . ,1, .- ...
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, ,Q... Yo.ur state of mind waa sucn that you were \trlhappy
. J
. labciut.the _$2,400?
12'
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A . :. +va'I o.iZJplea:aed. I :&,,a.sn 1 t t.U1happy,.
15
ve'!?$' displeased; isn't that a. fair etatement, .~- Crowe?
10 A. ~+r you, ar~ S'pe-a~i~g of my mind?
f * -,. I ~ ~ ~ I J,, ~I
~ Yes~
-18
A. lT I wanted me to express my mind to yqu $0 you
19
can explain my ~ind to_me ~~
~
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tht:? $2.,400?
~
23-
,y,oll. kno.,.,,. h.at,e anyone :f.'Q:r.: 1 t 0:r -whatever ..
.24
I w~s diapleased slightly, yes. Ir tqe~e .
wasn't
.., . . \ 25 there there would be ~o money. I acknowl~dge that tact,
me
26 and t~a~ should answer the, question.
l ~ What was tnat, a wba~ 1mowle~g~1
l? A. . I aoknow1e<$ge
. the tact if there wouldn 't be no
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It's. all in your own head~ what~ver you think.
Wae it love at fi~st sight JJetween you ~cl Ros.ina
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16 had i,ort qf~ disappe ared,' and yo~ are sitting the1'e 1J;i J_ ' ' I
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11 ,, El Mont~,. and are :,cu,1 tel Ung us that at that point you,'
18. we~e teei1,h.g, aort: oi J;r&:d folr ~o.sina., ia that what rou are
. 19 telling i.ls?
~ ~o A. Yea;i and -I. was feeling pa.rtia ll;y,, shall I say, not
;, ~$; _ ,. A. No, he r~ of,f with h:ls soul in the: conditi on. tha;
26 it was in ..
CieloDrive.con,
21,788
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- 15 . ' detaohe~ from fq.ux- 2,,.40fh .if.yo:u, ?i<lnot. get- the ma.ri,juana.
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19 Q,
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., ,2Q happiest man in the _world theJ;"e at Bl Mont~, Califor~:ta?
on:., yea,. "i:t All depends on what yot1r detini tion of
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happipess 1s
Well, is it a t~1~ statement that you were not
~ -- hap.py at what had happerted, Mr. -Orow&t
25
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either-..
r wasn t di~happy, I wasn't dishappy aboiit. _it
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! wa sn 't pl ea se d'a po ut it 160
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you _los:e- ,$2.,JJo.o :tou canno t- r~ a~
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, Yt?U know
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Bu t' I mean,.yoq know,_ whate
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u kno w i , ,I boughi,t a gu y .fo
t- $2., 400., ar1q
mone1. th at . go t ,aw ay" yo
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in k tha tr pe op ;ie we re f9 r sa le . Bu t X POU@.t him .
I 4i d no t th
it
,.so th at is al l th at ts t6
u sa y ;v-o.u bo ug ht him ?
7
-Q, What do. yo u mean .when yo
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I Mn.. BUGLxosx: Th at is irr el~
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10,
e- 'Of th e
BJ i'7R. KAll:A~K: Mr. C~owe, in th ~ l~ gu ag
d?
is th at oa l1e d be in g burne
11
: na ~o ot tcs tfp e of tra de ,
ele va nt your Ho no r.
!tIR... :l3UG!.,IOSI1 Tb:at 1$ irv
TlIE COURT: SJJsta.;1.ned. ~
e of mi nd s.uch,
Q BY r.m ~ KAllAi.~K! ..Was yo ur st at
16,
fh at I ~as b-urnt1
.
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gh t~ wllen th e $21J4.oo ha pp en ed -- wh en it ha pp en ed
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~d why dt d yo u th in k tb
at he- had. be en burned:?
22
A. Secauoe he bu rti t hi ms elf .
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WJ?.av do. y:o mean by .tha:h?
,.' ' .24. .
IIR. StiGLlOJS:t:' Ir~ ele va n
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.-25
26
Ma.. K.&.~AREK.: Yo ur HIl,o;r.,. we ar e go ing
to th e sta t~ -ot
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exp res. s an op~n1o.n on the. ' '
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iss ue is fin all f sub ~itt ~d to. you
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T1iE cotmri .k\ll deJ:end~~;s elecep;
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Q Right?
A Right.
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23, ~ -Then you came ha.ck .then you. came back nnd
~4. wl?,en you got to the F~ankl iri Avert.ti~ add'iess whe;re did.
5 '
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'J.im- and Del ~o_1
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5 A - Yes.
6 Q . You parked. the c~ on the lot., on the str~et ~ _
A On the lot; ys.
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8- "Q Who d;-ova -back?
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10 QAnd then _yell went into the house, and while
you were in the houae you had cQnversation with Rosina?
12 ,' A teah,. we: we.~ a-11 t~kin g ye-s-.
Q And_ Del.?
l4_, A-' l'e,$,.
. 15 Q And Jim?
16 A
~4'. A les.,
CieloDriw.com
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llb~3 -1 unhappy-,. to say the least~ -ab~ut 1 tosing the $2400, ,ts
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Uell., when you got back
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s the apartment there, you were quite unhappy about n.ot ~ettitlg
-~
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... ,;t.
7 r:tsht?
j
8 A I was not unhappy, as l explainea to you_before,
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\' ' .' 1~ ~ _. W~ll, .you wexe unhappy almost in1nedi4tely:aftet
is- he left your_ pres~nce there if:l Bl Monte, you b-ecante suspicio1,1 J
.16- . of ~itn, Mr .._l1atson?
17 A Yes,. evidently, beccuse ':i:. reacted to that~
18 -.
.,., So when you came back, _when you came ba<:;k 1 youi:
I? . main problem was to try and get that $2400 back1_ is that
.... io i-ight~
' it A lf l .cout~~ yes, y~s,
22 Q, If' you could. Is $2400 that meaningless to yqu,
Yes .
t1el1,. you. st~yed the.re with Rosina and Jim and
~. -, ~l -trying
. .
to
'
fig\;ll:Q o~t some way of getting your $2:400 l,ack, . - ~
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21,. 794__ -
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9 Q And so the re wa$ convorsation betwF!en YOut-$
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- n : A Uo -wi ll si'l,y be,:.ween ~he f-pu,: 0 us.
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sib ly
-,t4 ,a. I y;i ll try t_o e~ lni n it as iW;ch as I pos
,; ' i~ rememb.e:i: it.
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21195
llp ... 5 I 1 to the ranch, l was going to kill the people out there o~
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2
3.
some.thing
Anyway the only one l knew was Charli~ .Watson,
.and she gttve me the phone., and when she gave me the p.hone -- :
5 Q, Riiht now, would yot,t tell. me -what yoa heard her
Ja
. '
'[ You heard her say t.ho.t you were going to: kill
.8 everyon~ (?ortnccte.d wif:h Tex less you got th~ money back;
right1
10, A That is what she sa,id, yes.
ll That was in your presance that that convel;':Sation
. 12 took placo; right'l
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13 ,'
Uisht.
l'.i Y~u rre:v.~r had. seen Mr-. Manson in your life .at
is. .~.hn.t p~:i;.nt,. io that right?
16- ' l'hats risht.
17' And us a matter Qr act ~he uaed some pretty
:t;"ough ltti:iguage, is that cort~ct?
19 lJhnt d~ you mean, in w11at. respect?
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sat~on on the tel eph one .
reoe;L ver and
And at t;he:t tj;n ie nhe banded me the
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... R-ight now l am tal kin g abo ut rig ht now), abo ut
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-Shi';! J.ust aaid --
l don 1-t thi nk she me ntio ned ~l'lY pro.t'an
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2'J.,79~7
,: .fou,r.... lette;a:, word.,1, and st11rt . like th~t, no; I didnt hear
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that.
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All r}~ht,. ~i9- :vpu hear :b,er use the word nkill,"
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1L : . Yes,)yea.
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weed. You lte.a;ril her sa:y ...- you. he$.rd :t;er 't,.af :that.on the
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Y.e~, I h9ardher say that.
1): '
th~n at that t1ll'le was Jim pre~ent in the roam?
.No;, he had le-ft a.s :;;oon as we entere.a.' the apa:rt-
.
. men.t ,,... and a:f'tex- that about f:t ve ox- ten ltlin.utes or 110.. he
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had 1.-e.f't ~nd. he had something else- to do.
l '
Q,. . Wb~t about De-J,..?
16
A H~ stayed.
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Q, And to your knowled.n;e now ,.,.as J1Jtl. going to- use ':"-
18; . . what t:ro.uspQvtation was Jitn. goil'J.3 1;:o use to. gt, wher~ve~ he
19 -
i20
. 1\. . Well,. I :re~llY don't know unlese he had one of the
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21:
peopl-e n: :that .,I""' on th-e pr~nds.es take hfm, because we a:11.
,i
Itnet'T q_uit~ a few people on ..the p2-em1-seJJ that lived in the
1:;am~ like -- well .t it ts kind 9 diff'i-eu:lt, they are like:
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'24
bun_tal'OMa,. slightly, too~ like little prllv~te bungalow .sort
ot thing....
.
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Me knew a tew people there,"mayoe he u~ed that 3our,1,
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21,798
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You are saying that) ...j- -z,b\t,; ~;c sa:,1iig thtt: y,6ur
10 answer- ma:, t~nd to incJ;>~minat'e y9u., .is 1,;}?,~t-~w~at; 1:ou are
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1t saying?
i2 MR. BUGLIOSit It's :i~re-levant, your Ronor.
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THE COURT:
Q . Bl MR. KAMARtK:
Suat~ined.
Thtn.after Ro"$.1na spok~ with
who.ever she spoke wj,th on . the te1oph<:>ne.,. yqu ap.oke .witli the
}!,. perso11., ;s that right'?
17 A. l!es, yea.
18 Q And the pe~$on that you spoke w1..th at that time
19 was a p~r-son that you had nevsr -seen 1',efore in yow lite a-e:
21>- . tat'- as fQU. knew i, 1:"i~ht 1
, 21 lea, to my b~t~er knowled$e.
ls that cor~ect?
.23
.26
state
-~
ot mind was that you wanted the money baok?
.I beg your pa~don1
1 Yoti wanted your money bao-k, r-1,e;h.-t?
2
~
. -$ say
. 1~ Hr. !-!anson came :j.nto the apl;l.rt1:1ent?:
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Well, after :C. talked to the. csentJ.eman on the .
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telephone. o.t tll'at t:tme,. 1-1lttoh ia beyond my know-le9-ge who it
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' '& : wa:'s ~t- 'b.hat. p'.ar~icuiar. ~time, wpich t10.s abQUt like two -o~
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oti'>.e~, and -be shook my hand and he coI!J.pliment:ed Steve's
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11 . : Tex would do soniething 1111.:e th~t, ;Lt did nc>t sound like him
.1s. An~ no one el.se ha;d .anyttiing- to do w;th j,.t; it
. .
. - i? , was Jurat bl$ own motive,. it was- a question of motive.
'
,20 .' Q, - l{ow -long a:tter you hune up the phone_ did yQu havt!
.;1 ; tllis c~nvel"sation with ~!Ir~ Manson?
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r.son on ~he tel eph on e con -
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.. had a '<!o.nve,::sa,tion wi th the ,pe .
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; .. cerning whnt Tex had done; i~ tha t rig
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Yes.
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ltow, you say you t~~ t ta get_ $~e
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9n Fr-.anklin? Hm1it' tt ,:di
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A Appipximately ~ix ~ ~ eig
1 seven, ~ ht. -- between sig ;
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se:vE!n to . ton blocks.'"- Fol'i.n
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. ?ou. drove do~"lt f;~e:rc; is tha t
:rig ht?
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J.. Yes~
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1 . ' And yo-u go t Ste ve; i;;tgl'lt.?
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J,. Yes..
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yor.o.:ttention,.t~en, to y.c>Ut
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d such tha t when you
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the tel eph oii e you wel!e tal!Q.ng t~ M't'
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A I d:t,dqt kno,;-: his name at' the -t:b ~
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. kn.aw it'. was. Ch arl ie
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I remember.her rel~tin_g to Charlie~ Th
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all 1 bear:d~
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Q. hnd that is t:he same person that Rosina had
j.ust ma:4e the stat~ni.on.t t.o a.bout l~~lling everybod y a~ the
4 ' spuhn Ranch; rigl?,t?
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fl Than your state -of .mind 1-i~s sqch that you we:pe
'.1 going to leave that erea onF+anklin and go ~ix or eight
'8 blocks o.way and ~cme bc;:l~ with Stcv~; ,:ight?
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13, Q. And ths :reason tha,t. you had for gcting to get
14 St:eve was bccausa yQu watltcd someone that was sor-t af ~
'15 friend of yours at this locatio n; right?
. 16 .f... :C already ha..d a friend the,:e.. I had two there._
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}9'. ,, ri 'nut Del was -in another area.; right; another
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part of th~ .....
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A . Well:, we 11e-re in the same room.. In the Sallle
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ans-w-~r.
Why -did YQU ~o to t;et Ste v~?
!f it is okay wit h the Cou~t, It d rat her not
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dea ling wit h ru:x i!lleg-0.tio . by tho pro
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know what thi s
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-~ li, (Whereupon th~ q~e$tion'Wa~reaa by t~f .
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COURT: l'.nS W(tt the qu.astion. ~ ' '
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.i. answeri the .
!" .. ,.. MR .MORGAU: Your l;Ionort. bef ore he .. , ..
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19. THE COtreX: l)o _you have the : qu~st~on in mind, Mr.
.._ 'Cl:'oW~?'
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1BE UlTNESS: Yes,_
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tha t l -was abs~nt
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1-------:---- --- -- -- --. --- -C iel oD - an --- --- -
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ini on abo ut. ~t . I e~ pla ine d t0, him lih at hap pen ed.
~. hi s op
3 , , He said-:._ W ell , fot ge .t ab ou t
. . I std .d:
it. It is nothing.,_
t 4 like. tQ in ve sti ga te and see i~
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Ju st quest:lon .
$- '. the y we re toge.the:r, yo n know..
Be sa id: . Okay, bu t I would ju
st Ie~ve it. alo ne
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1. : , ~nd no t go wi th it.
at. !l!bat i-s the
s We came ba ck , an d ,(Zhirl; was: th
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12a fls . .9 rO"asott th nt I went to ge t h:(J ~
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som.ewhe;r.e ~ound in that .area.
' "' 7- -SP, tbat is quite a wl'lil:e to leave him a.t
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8 some fti~ndte, ~nQther . ftiend"s re$idence>
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w~thout rny
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15 to go- and get Steve a)..d come back. 'With ..Steve; ;t:s that
16 - right'l -.
17 A Yes. Sure-..
18 ~ . ~ou W(?tC? o.oi~g to bring Stave~ l?ac~ to .RQsina s..;
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A Yes.
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2~ or 1o1hat. bad occurred. 1,\t the tj.m~. '.I: had .no. ;dea ti.ha~ _sucti
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it1- u tning would hav~ taken placo.
---,.-, -~~. If I did have an idea. ouch . thing wo.;ild ,t;ake 1
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11 A No.
'rh~n ~hat t-1as your pqrpose in bringing Steve
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back?
A 1 exp1a:i.ned to you.,i, Sit'.
You mean you brought Steva back and it had
nothing . ~o do with getting thEi. .$.2400 back?
l'L A. No,. definitely not.. l woulc!n' t ,..._ no~ definite!
l.8'. 'hot;.
Q You brought Stev:e back to Rosina' .s for l\ soci.al
, 19
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v.is:t.t? 'You had forgotten about,> the $z.4oq, ianp. you d:t:ctnt
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21: care 4n.yt:hi:ng mo:i::e:. ~bo1Jt :tt ;, t i_$ht 1- ; ,
; ' ~, "~ - >, ' 1 \ I '
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that .oc9u1:red at;: that pa:rt$cu4tr time . .
I .didnt; make. no comment one way ~r the other~
All I said was I -wap.ted the money or the weed; and that is
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l6 all, and I gave hor the r~ceiver,. and .she did the ,;est of
17 . it:
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1w So, I guess she knew wp.at she was doin~h and,
.J9- whatever.
20 I mean, it didn t. ,:naf;ter. It wean t in my
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~1 m;nd to do anything to .anybody"! I ne"<lcr. men~;i.one.d it"
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l2b-l 1 ~- :e ardon?
l never mentioned the fact wha~ :+ was. gQ+g to do
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to have somebody with you.tQ accomp1:i...sh the return of the
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mQne;r .qr the .we-ed2' '. :
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No ' 3. '.
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ab-pu;t .it,- l'lhatever, after I ~xpl(lined
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to ~m i-tha1;t ,had taken
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ti place and what was said in the cou~se of the whole t~ip.
1~- !r!d ht said;-. "Jh:b1e it or.t., r..an. 1 Lik~ ~ ,you lmow., 11 F-O;'get
11,9 about it .. l wouldn t t bo.tl1~r a.bout it~"
,o: :t J USt too!t his ~dvic~. .But I wa.ntea. to stie~ my
<-it. ; _nec.k;. ou:t; to :find out :it the th:ree paople w~rl; t9get:he:t', .
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~~ . according tq the G,onvel'.3at!f.ona. But I -hacl _sl~gh.tly more
~ . faith in Rosina tnan I d:Ld c.nyone 6-l.se that was involved in
24 . that pa:rt.icular incident --- on the opposite side, I should.
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say.
Q, Well, then, Stevo_save you the adv:Lce. ire
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sus;~ested that yQu. not go back to Rosina's.; right?
.A. Yes.- Forget abou~ it, in othejt words.
~h:t.s is h1s woro.s-: .. Forset abou.b ;Lt. Shine. it 0:n~
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in other wo~d$ '
s r ~ aut you disd.n t-t follow the advi-oe or St~ve.., and ytlu.;
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I didn't 'think anybody ttas coing to k;l.11 me ox- try to ki1;
me/) or what-ever) you lcno:w.
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~ Then, would you tell us; why did y-0u go back to
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just f'c;,:rgc;:,1i.
Ros ina' s .it th:ts meant noth ing to you and if' you
$
-- ,g.
4
:' a.b.aUt :.tt and. you sa.14 g_Qodbye t-o the '$2400?
.. baek ? .
Why did you go
!Do an exte nt, I went back to rurt h~r .inv esti gate
..
,5 A.
.. on the .
~-,,'f; -~
Even. atte:.tl r went to eet Stev e, as we we~e talk ing
~ way back , th1$ ia ao~ething that I wanted to do.
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ize-1 ' ,;
All right.
i ' Then_ y-ou -went back 1tith Stev~; right?
3-
Yes ..
4 1ou rtnd Steve toge.ther ttont into Rosina:' s?
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You knocked ~n the door.
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Was R.osinn i s dcor locked at that t.~~?
t'e' ,
. ~. I don t 'r.etU~mbeti.
Yes. Someone come to tba 4,oor. Yes,,
P~don?
It A Yes. S.QlneQne cmne to'the door,. I think it
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Wall Del ..
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26 kid you went Qttt- ~here .,._ let ~ withd1t~w th_~t ...
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So, at the time that you left, you knew that
2
you were going to come back and get Del; right?
3
A Yes.
4
Q And so you went to get Steve so that you could
6
upon somebody to get your money or the weed?
7
A They weren t the type of people to put pressures
8
on nobody.
9
They wasn't the ones -- well --
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THE COURT: Mr. Kanarek, as I indicated to counsel
11
this morning, we will have to adjourn at this time today
16
The court will adjourn until 9:00 oclock
17 tomorrow mo~ning.
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(llhereupon at 3:45 oclock p.m. the court
19
was in adjournment .. )
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