Professional Documents
Culture Documents
BY JAREK SZYMANSKI
JS: You are very famous for your fighting skills. It is not very common
nowadays that Neijia practitioners can effectively fight. When did you
start your martial arts practice?
MR.MA: I started to learn martial arts when I was nine years old. My
family was practicing Shaolin boxing for many generations and it was
my first style to learn. In my village two styles were popular - Shaolin
and Da Hong Quan, but there were more people who practiced
Shaolin. I can't say what branch it was as nobody really paid any
attention to names at that time. Our village was very big and there
was a Buddhist temple there. My grandfather learnt from a monk who
lived in that temple. I learnt from my father and what he taught was
not routines but basics of Shaolin boxing, mainly stretching and
kicking. He was a very strict teacher and often hit me with stick when
I did not practice diligently. I had to perform front kicks with straight
leg so that the toes could touch my nose or the chin. When I was in my
thirties I was still able to pass below a wooden bench from its one side
to the other using Pu Bu very quickly. The bench was so low that my
chest had to touch the floor during the movement...
MR.MA: First you lean a wooden board against the wall at a small
angle (between the board and the ground). Then you just run on the
board towards the wall and back. Your body has to be kept vertical to
the ground. Later the angle between the board and the ground
increases and finally the board is removed so that you just run directly
up the wall. As the result your toes can touch the shin.
JS: You reached certain level in Shaolin Boxing. Why didn't you
continue your studies but instead decided to learn Baguazhang?
MR.MA: In 1961.
JS: Is that true that Li Ziming learnt a lot from Guo Gumin?
MR.MA: Yes, it's true. They were Gongfu brothers (disciples of the
same master - Liang Zhenpu), but Guo Gumin was professional
martial art teacher. Li Ziming was younger than Guo and was busy
running his business - he was the owner of the largest (prior to 1949)
soya sauce mill in Beijing. Mr.Li was also engaged in underground
work and covered many Communist Party officials, including Wan Li
and Liu Ren, who became vice-mayors of Beijing after 1949. After
liberation in 1949 Li Ziming was holding important posts - was
director of foodstuffs factory and beer brewery - and before Cultural
Revolution was promoted to controller position in the First Light
Industry Bureau in Beijing.
MR.MA: Yes, in 1976 when Cultural Revolution was over. There were
about eight persons at that time who were accepted by Li Ziming as
indoor disciples, including Zhao Dayuan, Wang Tong, Sun Hongyan,
Ma Ling, Wang Shitong and Di Guoyong. Since at that time Li Ziming
was already quite old and did not practice much, getting more
interested in traditional Chinese painting and calligraphy, many of
them learnt from me.
JS: Many people say that you are quite conservative in teaching and
are very reluctant to pass some Bagua methods to students...
MR.MA: I emphasize Bagua basics a lot. They are very important and
if the student does not practice them correctly, according to my
requirements, then it is like throwing all the things I teach away. It is
not that I'm conservative but the problem is that many students do not
study hard and never get satisfactory level of basic skills. Learning
techniques and routines is without any value if the basics are not
good.
MR.MA: The are several methods. The most basic of them is walking
in a circle. It is divided into three so-called "basins" (San Pan): Lower
Basin, Medium Basin and Upper Basin. Yin-Yang concept is very
important as well - that's why we often call Bagua "Yin-Yang Bagua".
Walking counter-clockwise is Yang, while clockwise - Yin. There are
many requirements for walking practice: Hollow the Chest and Pulling
Up the Back (Kong Xiong Ba Bei), Collapse the Waist (Xia Ta Yao),
Twist Hips and Keep Knees Together (Niu Kua He Xi), Grasp the
Ground Firmly with Toes (Zhua Di Lao); Drop the Shoulders and Sink
the Elbows (Chui Jian Chen Zhou), Smooth Buttocks and Lift the
Grain Path (anus) (Liu Tun Ti Gang), Three Pressing (Head Presses,
Tongue Presses and Hands Press creating One Energy) and Three
Round Principles (San Ding - Tou Ding She Ding Shou Ding Hunyuan
Yi Qi - San Yuan). Only if all these requirements are strictly observed
Internal Qi (Nei Qi) will appear and Neigong (Internal Skill) will
develop. Once Neigong develops, it's like electricity in hands.
JS: Is there any specific feeling you have when the Small Heavenly
Circle opens?
MR.MA: No, you should not think about Qi when you practice. Small
Heavenly Circle will open naturally, not intentionally, when your
Neigong reaches this level. However your practice has to be
supervised by a competent teacher.
MR.MA: No, you have to open the Large Heavenly Circle so that Qi
can reach your hands. This also takes time and you have to think first
- use Intent (Yi) - to drive Qi to the hands. Once Qi follows your Intent,
the next step is to be able to move Qi without any conscious effort.
The Qi will behave like mercury - once you strike with the hand it
immediately flows from out of Dantian, waist, and reaches the hand.
The hand will be felt by the opponent as very heavy. Only at this
moment you can start learning Bagua techniques and movements.
Guo Gumin (also known as Guo Han first tested Guo's skill - he
Enpu or Guo Decang) was demanded that Guo would fight
originally from Jizhou in Hebei with his best spear experts using
Province. Born in 1887, he was wooden spears. Fifty were chosen
interested in martial arts since out of three hundred and Guo
childhood. At the age of 14 Guo suggested that each of them
started to serve an apprenticeship should pierce him three times. As
at Liang Zhenpu's secondhand the result none of them was able
clothes shop and learn to pierce Guo and none managed
Baguazhang from Liang (Liang to avoid Guo's three stabs...
was one of Dong Haichuan's
disciples). At the age of 20 Guo After the war Guo returned to
was accepted by Liang Zhenpu as Beijing and was teaching martial
indoor disciple. Since that time arts at Beijing's Furen University.
martial arts became Guo's After the liberation in 1949 Guo
profession. As early as in 1920s taught mainly in Beijing parks. He
Guo Gumin was already teaching passed away in 1968 at the age of
Baguazhang in many places in 81, his body was cremated and the
Beijing. ashes kept by his disciple, Su Shen
until 1984, when two other Guo's
After Japan invited China in 1937 disciples, Liu Jiemin and Wang
Guo was invited by Japanese Qichang, moved them to Beijing's
Embassy to teach martial arts. He Wan'an Public Cemetery. His tomb
rejected the invitation and had to is located by the side of Dong
flee to Jinan in Shandong Haichuan's tomb.
Province, where he taught martial
arts to the army of one of the local Guo was short and thin; he never
warlords, Han Fuju. got married and devoted his whole
life to martial arts. He not only
mastered Liang Zhenpu's
Baguazhang, but also learnt from
and exchanged skills with many
other renowned martial arts
experts of his time - mainly "Big
Spear" Liu (Liu Dekuan), but also
Shi Jidong , Yin Fu, Liu Fengchun
(all were Dong Haichuan's
disciples), Han Fushun (Shi
Jidong's disciple), Ma Gui (Yin Fu's
disciple), Yin Yuzhang (Yin Fu's
son), Zeng Xingsan (Yin Fu's
disciple) and others.
JS: Does it mean that all Bagua movements are designed in such a
way that one must have Neigong first to be really able to use them?
MR.MA: Exactly. Without Neigong all Bagua techniques are good for
nothing and there is no use to practice them. For this reason I'm not
willing to teach any techniques to students who do not have Internal
Skill - it's waste of time for them and me.
JS: I guess very few people can learn in this traditional way?
MR.MA: Yes, practitioners often feel that walking exercise is very
boring and give it up after some time. However once your Neigong
develops, once the Small Heavenly Circle opens, the practice becomes
very interesting.
JS: As far as I know Taoists suggest that one should also stop having
sex, otherwise the Small and Large Heavenly Circles will never open.
Is that true for Bagua Neigong practice as well?
Your body requires one week to recover after one sexual intercourse.
i.e. come back to the condition before the intercourse. One hundred
days is required to recover Original Qi (Yuan Qi) completely (i.e.
recover to the condition before one had any sex). About three years is
required to open Small Heavenly Circle.
JS: What about married people? I'm afraid people who have families
will have difficulty with developing any Internal Skill then...
MR.MA: You will only hurt yourself. Lower Basin is a very demanding
practice for the body and it will not be able to endure it. During Lower
Basin practice you have to eat well and have good rest. It is like
having a bank account. If you draw 1 million dollars from it and then
transfer 1 million back it is OK. If you transfer 1 million and one
dollar, you will have little saving - surplus energy. However if you
transfer only 990 thousand, you will be in dept - your body will not be
able to recover from the effort. In this way although your muscles may
get stronger, your internal strength, internal potential, will decrease.
This phenomena can be easily recognized by hearing one's voice -
weak voice, neither loud nor clear, sometimes accompanied by
coughing is the symptom of low energy level. Lower Basin method is
most suitable for young, unmarried people. Otherwise you have to
make the decision to become like a monk for three years...
JS: We were talking about Small Heavenly Circle. What about the
Large Heavenly Circle (Da Zhou Tian)?
MR.MA: Once the Small Circle is opened, the Large will open
naturally. There is a saying "Small Achievement comes in three years,
Big Achievement - in ten years" (Xiaocheng San Nian Dacheng Shi
Nian). One has to live in celibacy for at least six years to achieve true
skill. Once the skill comes out, you still have to limit the number of
sexual intercourses. Two, three times a week will ruin your skill
completely. Once every two, three months is not a big problem.
MR.MA: Your legs and waist (lower back) will lose the flexibility and
strength. There are many martial arts practitioners who had
remarkable skill in youth but when older they could hardly walk. This
was caused by excessive sex. One of my teachers, Guo Gumin, was
never married. When I started Bagua practice in 1961, for six years I
was practically living in celibacy as well. At 5:00PM I was coming
back home from work, ate dinner, and immediately went to practice. I
was coming back at 1:00AM, after 6-7 hours of practice. Everyday,
without even one day of rest.
JS: But in this way you did not sleep enough. You did not have enough
rest.
MR.MA: I get up early in the morning and practice for three hours,
everyday. (Mr.Ma's wife added that he does it everyday no matter
what the weather is, even on Chinese New Year, the most important
festival in China)
JS: Back in the 1960s did you practice any other exercises apart from
walking in a circle? Some forms of sitting meditation or standing pole
(Zhan Zhuang)?
MR.MA: Sitting or standing meditation are for Neigong only. Walking
practice is also called "Moving Pole" (Huo Zhuang/Xing Zhuang) and
has very important advantage - it develops both Waigong (External
Practice) and Neigong at the same time. When you walk in a circle,
you nourish your Internal Qi every minute, you build it stronger and
stronger. That's why walking in a circle is so important and at the
same time so difficult to understand.
JS: Did you learn and "Light Skill" (Qing Gong) as well?
MR.MA: The idea is to use your Dantian, waist, to move. I'm sitting
here right now. If you want to attack me I can move fast forward
without using legs, but by straightening the waist. (Mr.Ma made a
demonstration - from a sitting position he was able to move fast very
far forward before he touched the floor with his legs).
MR.MA: I learnt not only from Li Ziming but also from Han Lanyu
(Wu Xing Chui expert, Bao Zhang's disciple), Guo Gumin (Baguazhang
expert, Liang Zhenpu's disciple), "Tong Bei" Li, Han Qichang (of Mei
Hua Zhuang). My teacher used to take me to all these teachers and
usually I had to fight with their disciples. This is how people started to
know about me...
JS: I have heard that you also defeated one quite famous foreign
martial artist?
MR.MA: There was one foreigner, whose Xingyi was very good. He
wanted to study with Li Ziming and become his disciple. Many of Li's
students like Zhao Dayuan and Wang Tong were there. They all
crossed hands with the foreigner and lost. His Xingyi was very
impressive - when he demonstrated it, in the opening movement all
his joints were cracking. His External Skill was really good, but his
Internal Skill was not. He did not use his strength correctly - held it
back in his own body, tensed his muscles too much, had no roots.
JS: You mean one has to be relaxed when practicing Bagua?
MR.MA: No, I did not. These exercises develop external, stiff power.
What we want is the Internal Qi which drives all the movements. It's
like mercury, once you strike it's there, once you withdraw - it returns
as well. It's flexible, alive.
JS: Apart from hand techniques one must also master footwork and be
able to use legs when striking.
JS: It is easy to understand the first part of the saying :"When the
opponent does not move, I do not move either" but could you explain
the second part?
MR.MA: "Once the opponent moves, I move first". This means once
the opponent decides to move, there is a very short moment when he
prepares to attack. You should be able to notice this moment and
strike when it is not over yet. This requires very good Neigong and
high skill - timing and speed.
JS: Some people say that Bagua is not as soft as Taijiquan, its softness
is of different quality. What do you think about it? Should one be
completely relaxed when walking in a circle?
MR.MA: One should be relaxed (Song) but at the same time look for
"coordinated power of the whole body" (Zheng). One should keep the
"coordinated power of the whole body" (Zheng) but at the same time
relax (Song). It is very difficult to find balance between these two
states. One should also avoid excessive tension when looking for
"coordinated power of the whole body" (Zheng). Softness is very
important in fighting - when the opponent strikes hard you can only
use softness to overcome his hardness. We call it "To overcome
Hardness with Softness" (Yi Rou Ke Gang) or "To Overcome One
Thousand Pounds with a Clever Method" (Yi Qiao Po Qian Jin). You
need softness to use these methods.
MR.MA: Of course you shall. You should walk like a heavy transporter
which moves smoothly no matter how bad the road is, whether its
wheels get into a hole or meet a stone. One should not over-emphasize
grasping the ground with toes (Shi Zhi Zhua Di) as this may result in
stiff (dead - Si) power.
JS: What about "Mud Wading Step" (Tang Ni Bu)?
JS: I have seen some Bagua practitioners who, after they make a step
with the front leg and before they put it on the ground, "throw" the
body forward so that the front foot can move more forward. Is this a
correct way of practicing "Mud Wading Step"?
MR.MA: No, it is not correct. You should never lose control over your
gravity center, because the power of the body will be dispersed.
MR.MA: You should use the waist to drive your body forward, for
advancing. Body should be like a (spinning) top, with center of gravity
well controlled. The center of gravity should be always on the front
leg. You have to "smooth the buttocks and Lift Anus", assume a
posture similar to that when sitting on a chair, then the waist drives
your legs, center of gravity is on the front foot, and you can advance
very fast. (Mr.Ma demonstrated this way of walking)
JS: You are known to be a very strict teacher. Do you have many
students who reached a satisfactory skill level?
MR.MA: I can think of two, they both work in the Beijing Municipality
Public Security Bureau. One of them, Chen Xiangxian, is the main
martial arts coach there. He took that post when I retired in 1993.
JS: Do you think Taiji and Xingyi should build similar Internal Skill to
Bagua?
MR.MA: Late Liu Wancang, practicing both hard styles and Taijiquan
(Wu Jianquan's branch; he taught in Ditan Park) was very advanced in
Neigong. He was very strong and used to exercise with 40 kg heavy
stone balls. Besides there were also quite a few Shaolin practitioners
(like the late Hu Laodao teaching in Taoranting Part in Beijing) who
reached high Neigong level.
JS: Was their power like the mercury - what you just mentioned
talking about Bagua's Neigong?
MR.MA: No, their Internal Skill was not that good. Although they
reached relatively high level of Neigong, it was still inferior to the one
that correctly practiced Neijia styles allow for. I do not think external
styles can achieve the highest levels.
JS: Have you practiced any strength building methods (like the one
mentioned above - stone ball).
MR.MA: Yes, I practiced with long spear. It's length is one Zhang and
two Chi (about 4 meters). I learnt Bagua Long Spear exercises from Li
Ziming. The goal is to build the power and learn correct body method
(Shenfa) - opening the joints and "pulling out" the power (dynamically stretching the
tendons). This method has to be used to improve one's skill. People who do not practice
martial arts have rather stiff joints which limit their range of movements. By long spear
practice one can open the joints, increase their flexibility and hence improve agility of
movements.
JS: What about other Bagua weapons? What is the goal of practice
with weapons in Bagua?
MR.MA: Both. Not only you can learn how to use the broadsword, but
what is more important - improve your Bagua skills, especially the
body movements. It is said "Man follows the broadsword, broadsword
moves with the man" (Ren Sui Dao Zou, Dao Sui Ren Xing).
MR.MA: All are very important and none is really important. The
most important is Gongfu - the skill. Once you have the skill you can
use anything as a weapon. It has no use to learn lots of weapon
routines - once you have Gongfu than learning weapons is very easy.
MR.MA: In Bagua we have Bagua Long Spear and Short Spear. The
latter is also called "Snake with Two Heads" (Shuang Tou She) as it
has spearheads on both ends. Its main feature is using long weapon
on short distance (Chang Qiang Duan Yong) and it differs from typical
spear methods of "Lan Na Zha". In Bagua you redirect opponent's
spear with one end of your weapon and strike him with the other end.
Once you can apply the principle of "using long weapon on short
distance" than you can effectively use a short stick even against a
broadsword. This can be easily seen in techniques of another typical
Bagua weapon - Seven Star Stick (Qi Xing Gan) - which is mainly
used for point striking. While using long weapon one has to be able to
use so-called "flexible grasp" (Huo Ba) which allows for changing the
grasp of the weapon without loosing contact with it.
MR.MA: Bagua free fighting is different from other styles. The most
important feature is that both hands move towards the opponent at
the same time. In other styles when one hand moves towards the
opponent the other is drawn back. In Bagua it is important to strike
fast and for this reason both hands move towards the target
simultaneously. Hands have to move fast, footwork has to be fast as
well, only then one can achieve what is called "excellency" (Bagua Wei
Qiao). There is a saying "change in fighting is in front of you" (Bian
Hua Zai Qian Tou) which means that the change of technique in
fighting is in fast hands method, not in the whole body.
MR.MA: Yes, Cheng branch uses "Eagle Claw Power" (Ying Zhao Li),
Yin branch - "Piercing Energy" (Yi Qi Guan Tong), Liang branch -
"Palm like Rows of Tiles on the Roof" (Wa Long Zhang, because the
fingers are placed one on each other like tiles on a roof). Dong's
disciples were taught in different ways according to the style they had
learnt prior to Bagua study; this is the reason they have developed
their own styles with distinctive characteristics. Their hand
techniques and body methods are different. However all of them
should express the "Spiraling Power" (Luo Xuan Jin). This concerns
not only Neijia, but also Waijia styles.
MR.MA: No, I teach them in the same way. Although it is said that tall
people have difficulties in going into low postures, the real question is
only whether they spent enough time on practice. It is not true that
Bagua suits shorter people better than taller ones - all of them have
their advantages, but have to practice hard to be able to make use of
them.
JS: How many students do you have? Is it difficult to become your
"indoor disciple" (Rumen Tudi)?
MR.MA: I have about 60, 70 indoor disciples. They had to learn from
me for at least three years before I accepted them as disciples - I have
to test morality of my potential disciples.
MR.MA: The oldest ones who start learning from me are in their 40s
and 50s. Some of them practice very well. Although their Wushu
basics - understood as flexibility and strength of waist and legs -
cannot compare to that of young children, but they make good
progress in Neigong. This is absolutely sufficient to be able to make
good use of Bagua in fighting.
MR.MA: The definition is that in Lower Basin hips and knees are on
one level - like sitting on a low chair. I used to practice walking in
Lower Basin for one hour without rest. My son has been practicing
walking in Lower Basin for six years, for two hours every day, so his
Lower Basin skill is acceptable. Once the true skill - Neigong - in
Lower Basin is attained, the practitioner has the feeling that his feet
do not touch the ground while walking. We talked about it already...
JS: Mr.Ma, thank you very much for your time and generosity of
sharing all this knowledge!
NOTE - for detailed explanations concerning requirements for
Baguazhang practice as mentioned by Mr.Ma please refer to excerpts
from Liu Jingru's book.