Thinking Is Form: The Drawings of Joseph Beuys

Author(s): Bernice Rose

Reviewed work(s):
Source: MoMA, No. 13 (Winter - Spring, 1993), pp. 16-23
Published by: The Museum of Modern Art
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4381217 .
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DUSSELDORF,

JUNE i8, I984

BR: It is always extremelydifficult to discussdrawing.

JB: It is. As soon as you startto talk about drawing,you speakof a
verycomplexsort of philosophy.Sincedrawingis a primordialresult
of the author,producer,artist,or whatever,you can learnabouthow
things come into reality. Drawing for me alreadyexists in the
thought. If the complete invisible means of thinking are not in a
form, it will neverresultin a good drawing.My thinkingon drawings as a special form of materializedthought is this: they are the
beginningof changingthe materialconditionof the world,through
sculpture, architecture,mechanics, or engineering, for instance,
wheredrawingends not only with the traditionalartist'sconcept.

writing, which is an act of imagination.People state, "I cannot

understandthis. If you speaka sentence,if you write a word I can
understandit; but if you make a kind of constellationwith forms I
cannotunderstandit."The difficultact of communicatingwith this
free imagination-with forms-and with the word and sentence
providesa verygood opportunityto discussthe idea and the meaning and the importanceand the necessityof art.
BR: So that the drawing is a way of teaching about the primary
impulse of art?

JB: Yes.It is a very importantmode of teachingand being taught

aboutwhathumankind'screativitymeans.It is a wayof comingnearer to the idea of the anthropological,nearerto the consciousnessof
the changingmentalityof human beingsin modernlife. A drawing
is an ideal meansof coming nearerto the whole, to the fullnessof
BR: By traditional do you mean descriptivedrawing?
what humankindmeansand what socialordermeans.I don'trelate
JB: Yes,and I fancytraditionis veryimportant,but .... a historical drawingonly to the so-calledartist.The drawingis the most imporpoint of change is MarcelDuchamp.For me there ends the empty tant thing in otherfieldstoo, in designingan airplane,in physics,or
concept of modernart, and modernart is the last end of traditional in chemistry. The drawings are the first visible, materialized
art. From the point of view of my theory,aftermodernart anthro- thoughts.
pological art starts.Anthropologicalart, principally,is relatedto
everybody'screativity,to the constituentsof everybody'sproductivi- BR:Areyou saying that drawing is a deseriptionof thought?
ty. Creativityis no longer specificto people who areworkingwith
JB: Yes,but I think it is even more than a description.Often it ends
colors, to painters;it'sno longerspecificto peoplewho areworking
with a description,especiallyin the scientificfields.Yeteven thereit
with form, to sculptors. Everybodys formulation and environis not merelya descriptionof the thought,since duringthis process
ments-let's also say social relationships-have to be seen from the
of transferfrom the invisibleto the visibletherecome other creative
point of view of creativity,of art,and the principlesof form.In Gerstrata,such as workingwith your hand.
manywe havethis fantasticword,gestalt;it existsalso in some sense
in English.
BR: Youdiscoversomethingwhenyou do it?
A drawingis the first visible form in my work, the firstvisible
formof the thought,the changingpoint fromthe invisiblepowersto
the visible thing. It'sreallya specialkind of thought broughtdown
"I966. Oi, pencil,and pen and ink on cardboard
Fiuu-Demomnsion: "Manresa.
onto a surface,be it flator rounded,be it a solid supportlike a blackwith pnntednumbers,mountedon cardboard.
8 '4 x 7%".CollectionLudwigRinn.
boardor a flexiblething like paper,leather,or parchment,or what9'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~6
everkind of surface... even a wall.
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BR: Do you think of it as an extension of wngting?

JB: Naturallyand logically.If the originof the drawingis the form,

the shapeof the invisiblethought,logicallyone can makea decision
betweenan imageand a word.And becausethe thoughtis the most
essentialissue in understandingthe turningpoint from modernart
to anthropologicalart,it is crucialin thisconstellationto speakabout
ideas.Thereforein my productiontherearesometimeswords,sentences,or evenblackboardsconsistingonly of ideas,wordsformulated into ideas.
Those ideas on blackboardsare relatedto the problem of the
future,to the gestalt,or form, of everything:of the ecological,global entityof humankind'ssocialorder,of economicorder,of networks
of communication,of informationtheory,of all those things.These
concernsarealreadypresentin the beginningof my drawings,so one
could say I startedto drawto widen the intensityand energyof the
idea, to bringit to life, also to provokesomethingwith this kind of

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JB: Even though I speak about art like a

criticanalyzingsomeproductof artists,it is
the anthropologicalprocess of transfer
from the spiritualworld into the physical
worldthathasinterestedme morethanany
other thing. One could call it theory,but
for me it's not abstract;it's the most concrete, let's say, science, the beginningof a
concrete anthropology.Very often nowadays people speak about anthropologists
like Levi-Straus,who are interested-and
that'sa positive thing-in the behaviorof
older cultures,in the patternsof the daily
lives of the Hopi Indians, and all those
things. It startedwith MargaretMead and
otherswho camefromthe United Statesin
the forties or fifties and got interestedin
oldercultures,in shamanism.This interest
in anthropologicalresearchis widespread.
But sometimesit is only a kind of regression, going back to older cultures. My
interestwas neverto go backto the past,to
Hoganin Spring(Hoganim Frishling).1957.Watercolor,body color,dirt, and metallicpainton paper.9 x I2 7h".The Museumof
the old origins.I was interestedin originatModernArt. Gift of BarbaraPine and purchase.
ing things, in giving people an example
from older culturesat the moment in our
JB: Yes,the senses.All of a suddenyou havenot only to dealwith the culturewhen everythingis determinedfromthe materialisticpoint of
thought, but you have also incorporatedthe senses-balance, sight, view,when everythinggoes along the line of the so-calledexactnathearing, touch. Everythingcomes together:the thought becomes ural-sciencemodel. Peoplewant to analyze,they want to weigh and
modifiedby other creativestratawithin the anthropologicalentity, measure,they want to haveproof for everything,so they workwith
the humanbeing. The feelingthatcomes fromwhat one could term the so-calledexactnatural-sciencemodel. Which is also a veryposia "soul"combineswith the thoughtandproducesa muchmoreinter- tive thing, but it is unableto takein the wholenessof the problems.
I am not so interestedin oldertribalbehaviors.Thereseemsto be
esting constellationof the creativeprocess.Veryoften you havealso
incorporatedsome will power,energy,which is reallysomethingdif- a contradiction,as I told you, in that I veryoften use this model of a
ferentfrom the thought. Bringingall those creativepowerstogether shamanor imagesfromoldercultures,or what looks to be fromvery
leadsto a kind of product:an elementalutterancein the form of a old, primitivecultures,ideasof behavior.... I use them to give peodrawing.This is a transferfromthe invisibleto the visible;everykind ple a widerunderstandingof the world,whichwasin factpartof oldof creativestratumis implied. And then the last, most important er cultures.
thing is thatsome transfersfromthe invisibleto the visibleend with
a sound, since the most importantproductionof human beings is BR Are they emblematic of certain ideas?Are they meant when
language.One could alsosay that sound,which disappearsafterit is you see them to immediatelyconveya nexus of ideas in a codified
cast out, is a kind of drawing.
firm?
This wide understanding,thiswiderunderstandingof drawingis
JB: Yes,sure.The codifiedand the emblemarea naturalresultof the
veryimportantfor me. The spokenwordis a formulation,implantaimagination.... I use the idea of making the thing with a special
tion, of form onto the world. There is less physicality:it disappears
and immediatelyit becomes an emblem,
kind of intensity ....
with the sound. But I hope that a lot of words are appliedonto a
becauseit doesn'trespondto rationalunderstanding:this meansthis.
receiverwho is an intelligentbeing-that's communication.So that
The enigmaticthing createsthe energyto de-riddleit, to come into
physicallyit ends but in the receivertherestartsa new process,and
anotherway of understanding.You could also talk about a theoperhapsthis leadsto a whole new beginning.An auditorydrawing
for instance, which is far
sophical determination,"astralization",
reachesa receiver,and maybethe receiverstartsto draw.This kind of
from the currentterminologyin science; they don't acknowledge
transfer... is one of the essentials.It soundsa little bit abstract,this
such an idea.
reasonwhy I try to draw,to startthis experiencein the fieldof art.
BR. What do you mean by abstract?
18

BR: What is it?

JB: What I speakabout is art as astralbody.This meansthe whole

energycomplex,which is much morethan the rational... whatthey
call in industrybrainstorming,analyzing,makingeverythingrational. This means a much greater insight into all the powers of
humankind,nature,and all the interdependents,even into the field
of what one calledin the pasta religiousenergy.Let'sspeakaboutall
those things. In such a religiontherearegods, thereareangels,there
are other beings, there are cooperatorswith humankind,and there
arealso elementalspiritsin naturewhich eitherhelp us or which are
enemies.All this seeing of naturalpowerbecomesclearlyrelatedto
the human being. It makesclearwhat the valueof life is, makesthe
value of life a very high value.Then the alienationdisappears,since
normallypeople in the modernworld are pressedto do specialized
work by the megastructures
of such economies,be they communist
or capitalist-neither system caresfor the unfolding of the ability
and creativityof the people.Underthose conditions,dignityand the
unfolding of this inner life end; they are not possible in a world
which alienateseverybody'swork becauseit tries to reducehuman
life to only a biologicalbeing .... Somewherethe biologicalbeing
starts,and then it dies. What is the sense of it? That is surelynot
humankind;that is the methodologyand materialisticunderstanding of science. I have nothing againstit, but it is a devilishlyonesided methodology.I was interestedto changefromscience...

BR: Starting to enunciate the conceptso that it begins communicating...

JB: That'sright.Drawingis veryoften a startingpoint. It has a specialvaluein itself.Sometimesalsoit endswith the drawing.The idea
is shapedand proved,and when I see it has ended and is finishedon
the drawingI see no reasonto developa sculptureout of the drawing, as if the drawingwerea preparatory
work for a latersculpture.
BR: Thereare two questions, thefirst being the material aspect
The installations that areformed, the sculpture that'sformed in
this wholeecologicalgroundandgiven the idea ofcommunication
and action that leads to those structures-for instance, the one
that'sin Schafflausen now, a very big installation, with thepiano
and so forth-would that have been a sculpture which was initially an action?
JB: Right.
BR Does that then remain as a kind of anthropologicalevidence
of the action ... as well as a poetic evidence, and then one can
relive the action throughthe evidence?

JB: Yes, right. Sometimesone cannot fulfill it to the fullest. For

instance,DirectionalForcesis a resultof an action I did with people
in Londonduringthe courseof threeweeks.It was a permanentdisBR: Yes.
cussion, a permanentdialogue.One could call this environmenta
JB: ... and to try to stimulateall those powersand to discussthem. kind of documentof an action.Youcannotreproducethe life which
Initially,I traineda little bit in an art school and discussedwith the was presentduringthe action, all the peopleyoung and old, the sciteachersthis thing I cameveryorganicallyto form,wherelanguage, entistsand naivepeople and workers,even friendsand people from
gestures,sounds, informationplayedan importantrole. The result the ICA [Instituteof ContemporaryArt] where I did it-all those
was ... a kind of performancewhereother peoplewere in the dis- implicationsof life you can neverbringto it. So it is a documentof
cussionwithin the art world. And afterthis experiment,I found it the thing. But the interestingthing is, this documentshows a stage
betterand betteras a theory for anthropologicalart. Fromanother in a conceptwhich is now veryinterestingfor people.Youcan easily
point of view I call it also social art, becauseit has to
do with everybody.It does not have to do with me; it
Directional Forces.1974-77. Installation of one hundred panels, three on easels: chalk on composition board and clecgoes away from the ego, or the egoistic drives and tric light, installed on wood platform. 30h x
Nationalgaleric, Staadiche Museen zu Berlin. Photo: ? Ken Collins.
urges.It is a techniquewhich runs throughthe community or through the environmentor through the
social body.
All of a suddeneven the socialbody,which in the
past was an abstractthing in the mind of the people,
becomesunderthis constellationa livingbeing,and it
needsecologicaltreatment.Hence the ideaof ecology.
... It has to do with nature,with the socialbody,with
the individual,with the individualpsychein its whole
constellation,and with the constellationof groupsand
other peoples.The thingswhich alwayscausedifficulties-war, destructionof nature,the debasingof nature,
and the alienationof humankind'screativity-have to
be overcomethrougha verycomplexgestalt,wherethe
drawingplaysan importantroleas a startingpoint.
173/4'.

19

becauseit is not easily understood.... You

haveto studyit. Therearealsoreportsfromthe
action; you can hear some tapes, you can
research,you can readwhat I told you of the
theory at the time. There are a lot of things
which work together.
BR: You talk about modern society and its
desire alwaysfor the materiaL

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JB: In modern society there is a desire for

material;everythingis so stronglymaterialized
that you often think: "Whatis it with human
beings?Are they still human beings or not?"
Peoplehaveso few instinctsleft in them. Their
whole being is already so debased-not
throughtheir own fault but throughthe fault
of the existing economical system. I can't
understand,for instance,thatworkersaresupUntitled(SunState).I974. Chalkon slate,wood frame.47 ?6x 72". The Museumof ModernArt. Gift of AbbyAldrichRockeposed to go into a factorywhere they know
fellerand acquiredthroughthe LillieP BlissBequest(by exchange).
they will be affected immediately by some
describeall the ideaswhich arewrittenon this blackboard.Youcan chemicals;wherethe workerhimself,his family,his children,will get
write them down, and you can makea kind of reproductionof the cancer.I cannot understandthis kind of workingwithout any real
actionfromthe point of view of whatwasgoing on with ideas,struc- reaction,without any protest,without a strong refusal,let'ssay,of
tures,proposals,and provocations,surely,too. When humanbeings how big industry,the states,the governments,the politicalparties,
aretryingto overcomesomething,it is interestingto makea creation areoppressingthe people.We have to find a way out, otherwisewe
from that stage of development.For those involved-let's say the will go undervery soon, it's true. We will get more and more poiGreenPoliticalParty,which is now even sitting in Parliament-for soned,peoplewill die, childrenwill get deformed.Energyis alsolost,
themit is veryinterestingto seewhatwasa complexof ideasdiscussed and energyis a very importantpart of creativity.Creativityis not a
fifteenyearsago andhow it hasdeveloped:Did we shiftfurtheror did sentimentalthingwheresome peopleareableto worklike Leonardo
we stay back from this point of view which was interestingfifteen da Vinci. Creativityis a very common part of everyhuman being.
yearsago, or ten yearsago?So this documentis not a fetishat all.You ThereforeI sayeveryhumanbeinghasto be consideredan artist;that
can use it as a scientificmeans.
is the most dignifiedway to come nearerto the problemof regeneration, or awareness.We have to find a way out of this catastrophe.
BR: In that sense it's ecologicallyusefuLAnd that extendsalso to This startswith the consciousness:the soul, feeling,and will.
the trees beingplanted. * That'sa farther, an enlarged conceptof
that kind of ecologicalrecycling.
BR: You,as an artist, though,produce a particular expression;
you produce a particularformal context in your work.If we grant
JB: Right.It is mentionedon the blackboards.Findingwaysto make
that al people are artists, then the ones whom we normaly caU
theseecologicalthingsrealis havingits effectnow.Whatwasonce an
artists, like Leonardo or whomever, who produce a particular
utterance-what I call a drawingin sound waves,which cameto an
product, so to speak-that has a kind of identity. And what you
eardrumand was well receivedby intelligentpeople-led to a real
do has a kind of identity, too, that separates it from what other
undertaking.And this undertakingis now a sculpturalthing, really.
people do.
As you say, it is a word, a label. But you have to carefor the trees,
transportthe trees,see if the treesarehealthyor not healthy,contract JB: Right.Formy identityit is most importantnot to stressthe stylwith the foresters,dig holes, plant them; then comes the stone, as a istic side of the thing, not end with the formalside. In modernart
monumentalaccent to the thing. There is a consequenceof this thereis a veryimportantimpulseat the laststageof traditionalartaction. It is not only a fetish. Surelyfor some peopleit is completely let'ssay with Mondrian,Beckmann,all the differentconcepts, the
incomprehensible-thosewho arenot willingto de-riddleit or to go cubisticconcepts,the surrealisticconcepts.Surelytheywerealsoaskinto the mood of it, who are not patient enough to see the thing ing for a better society. But they only told it; they didn't find a
method for bringingit into life, how to bring it to the people, how
to workwith the kind of understandingof artwhich would become
* The planof a x982ecologicalactionwas to plant7,ooo oak treesall overthe world.Eachtreewas
the form of the social body itself. Now people have to find some
to be accompaniedby a basaltstone. Eventually,all kindsof treeswereused.Someareplantedoutside the Dia Foundationon 22nd Streetin Manhattan.
methodologyto fulfill those wishes. For me the only method that
20

remainsfor people to overcomebad things in the world is art. Certainly you have to speak a lot, and permanently,on art. Children
have to become educated in ways other than in the universities,
where people are filled with materialisticunderstanding-career
instincts,competitioninstincts,how you can study and all you can
study,how everybit will laterprovidea betterincome, let the other
guy therework on art.That is very unsocial.To growthroughthose
hindrancesI think the only thing that remainsis the weapon and
powerof art. But then you haveto widen the understandingof art.
BR: In other words the idea of style is restrictive?
JB: Yes.Art must not end wherethe museumexists,where the art
historianexists,wherethe so-calledarteducationin stateschoolshas
a small, not very vital existence.Lives are not determinedby this
activity.Nowadayslivesaredeterminedby the economicorder,of the
capitalistor communistworld, and the resultis the destructionof
natureand the destructionof socialability.

They will soon recognizethatthe only capitalof humankindis ability

andcreativity,
beingan artistin everyfieldof life.Then theywill come
organicallyto anothersocialorder.Theywill takeall of the moneyout
of the fieldof economy,sincemoneyhasnothingto do with economy.
Moneycan be a good regulator,but has nothing to do with the economicalfield.It hasto existin the democraticfieldto regulatehuman
rights;then peoplewill have realizeddemocracy.Without changing
the positionof moneyyou will neverreachdemocracy.
BR: In Stuttgart I saw one of the versions of Marcel Duchamp's
Chocolate Grinder, and it reminded me, in Munich I had just
seen somethingofyours, A ChocolateObject.
JB: Ah yes, thatis a verynice thing. It is this pieceof a cloth with the
chocolategrinder.
BR: I would like to talk a little bit about the materials that you
use, and the material of drawing and how it exend also into the
realm of sculptureand how they interrelate.

BR How do you avoid the notion ofthis restrictedidea ofart that

constitutesstyk?

JB: Most of the drawingsconsistonly of pencil.Then a characterof

drawingappearswhich consists of, let's say, fluid materials,be it
JB: I have nothing againststyle. Style is a very importantthing. If watercolor,normalwatercolor,or often I also use chemicalreactions
you compareotherproductswith an artproduct,it hasto havea kind on the surface-chemical reactionswhich leadto a kind of color,but
of style, surely.But style must not be the goal. It is an instrumentto only on the surface.Then thereis hare'sblood; also my own blood
go further.Modernartveryoften ends with style,with the formula- applied sometimes.Very importantfor me was . . . this so-called
tion. We haveto developand go on and bringup all those method- braunkreuz
(browncross),whereI was lookingfor a colorwhich was
ologiesand instrumentsto resultin somechangingof the socialbody, not at all experiencedas a color, which was a substance;a kind of
to bringit up asan artwork.I'mreallyconvincedthathumankindwill sculpturalexpressionwhich was a color but was not a color.I trieda
not survivewithout havingrealizedthe socialbody,the socialorder, lot with the gray,which has similaritiesto felt, the color of the felt,
into a kind of artwork.Everybodyasksfor quality.This word alone sinceI useonly,or ninety-ninepercentonly,grayfelt. I triedwith this
meanshow a thing is shaped.It does not mean how many beansI gray,but it was too delicatefor me, or too painterlyan expression,so
have in the pot. Everythingis quantifiednowadays.Yet
2X). 1960. Oil (Braunkreuz)
and blood on paper.Two sheets;IS
the longing for qualityexists in people. Quality is also Stag'sFoot-Cross 2X(Hirschfisskreuz
beautyfor nutrition.If a saladis poisoned,it canstilllook overall.OffendicheKunstsammlungBasel,Kupferstichkabinett.
beautiful.But people don'tbelievethese salads;they are
looking for a hidden qualitywhich is healthy.It'sa kind
of medicinewhich has the qualityof an artwork.So the
art-this is what I call anthropologicalart-therefore is
alsoveryinterestingfora farmer,for a forester,forpeople
in everyfieldof activity.The ideaof artis the only possible way to bringaboutanothersociety.The only aimwill
be the qualityof everything,the beautyof everything,the
art characterof everything.I find it verynatural.It'snot
verycomplicatedto understand.
3/4 X 20"

BR: So that art is exemplary.

t

JB:Art is exemplaryforeveryhumanactivity.I relateit to

labor.The next consequenceis-and this is reallyrevolutionary-that laboris only aboutqualityand form,as in
art.The only economicalvalueis this creativityof people
andwhatcomesout of the creativityof people;thatmeans
the product.They will see that moneycannotbe capital.

. -%-~4
21

I developeda very primitivesculpturewhere you paint floors this

brownishthing. Therearea lot of thingswhich I call drawings,neverthelessthey aremostly-what is the term?It'snot a line, it is a surface, it'sa full surface,or at leastbig complexesof this stuff.I call all
thosethingsdrawingsbecauseI do not havesucha specializedunderstandingof a drawing,that a drawingmostlyexistsof line or scribbling or makingshadowyeffectswith the pencil.

There is no blackboardwhich was done only with the idea of making a blackboard.Any blackboardwhich existswas done in a kind of
performance,or dialogue,with manypeople. In Japan,for instance,
I madea performancewith Nam JunePaik,and immediatelya blackboardappeared,verynaturally.Threeor four blackboards-we were
doingthe discussionsanddoingall the dialogues-appearedwith the
action.I nevermadethem artificially.

BR: It can start with the materiaL

BR: Drawing is realy something that you do privately, working

alone.

JB: I was looking for a substancewhich was not a color,which was

I call it braunkreuz
not sculpture.I found this braunkreuz.
to stress
the idea that it has a kind of substance.Naturally it is also a
metaphor,it alludesto this ideaof havingan unusualsubstance.
BR: Youcan mold that in the same way-it's primordial stuff to
use in the same way thatyou use drawing.
JB: Yes.
BR: The blood is also a part of the idea of the transferof energy
and the way that it changeson the surface?It changesfrom one
thing chemically when it'sfluid, and changes chemicaUyon the
surface?
JB: Yes,that'sright.But I also want to havea kind of stuffwhich is
unimportantas a primarysculpturalmeans,for instance,anykind of
clay,anykind of flexiblesubstance.I wantedto not havea specialcolor: not a cool, not a warm,not a red, not a blue, not a yellow,not a
gray.I was looking for a neutralkind of substance.The best word I
find is the idea of the substance,what one callsin GermanyUrstoff.
BR: It has no particular association beforeyou begin with it, no
partieular art association. It was, so to speak,free.

JB: Yes.
BR Whatwould constitutea necessityto do thoselkrgedrawings?
JB: A necessitymeansthat it was necessaryto find the bignessof the
drawingimportant.Until now I havefound thatthe sizeof my drawings is preciselythe most effectivething. To be completelynormal,
sometimeseven a cheappiece of paperis drawnon, an actualpiece
of paper,and I try it, and I know it is down. It is a kind of notation.
A big thing immediatelyhas a decorativeimpact,and that is exactly
what I try to avoid.Nevertheless,I sometimesthink that I will start
againwith a moresystematickind of drawingwhen I find a solution
for the problem,to makebiggersizes.
BR: It changesthe space of the conception,yes?
JB: Immediately.
BR: Do you think about it a good deal?
JB: No. I madea lot of drawings,and I feel that it makesno senseto
enlargethis quantityof drawingsanymore.I stopped this kind of
drawingin the beginningof the seventies.I wait for a momentwhen
thereis a new ideafor a drawing.I don'tknow if I will find this thing.

JB: Yes.
BR: Theaction doesn'talways have to start with a drawing now.
BR:Areyou doing any drawing now?

JB: No. If there is now a necessityto draw,it is about structures.

JB: Sometimes.I amworkingmoreon suchstructuresasblackboards SometimesI make a kind of drawingin preparationfor a perforand things,but sometimesalso I makea drawing,sure.
mance.Recentlyin Japan,for instance,I madethe drawingwhen the
performancewas alreadyrunning.I had the intention to makesome
BR: But you stiU think of drawing as very traditionaly on the structures,a kind of time structure,consisting only of elliptical
piece ofpaper.
points, with short and long, shortand long durations.I had it on a
smallpieceof paper.It was conceivedas a concert;Paikmentionedit
JB: Sure,why not. The best thing aboutdrawingis that you takea
would be fun to make a variationon the concert I did yearsago in
pencil and you takeany surfaceand you makeit, you writeit down.
memoriamto GeorgeMaciunas.It was a concertwith two pianos.
I see no reasonto find a betterthing than this. Maybein the future.
Paikorderedin two pianos,and he expectedto makea kind of conThe only thingwhich interestsme in a wayis to workwith big drawcert with two pianos. But when I was on stage, I felt completely
ings, verybig drawings.
againsta variationon that type of concert,makingit a repetition.So
I told Paikthat as soon as I startto bringthe firstsign fromthe piece
BR: I'm very interested in this idea of the large drawings. In a
of paperonto the blackboard,you startto play piano, and I make
sense the b.kboardpieces are like large drawings.
anotherthing. I workedfor one hour,determinedby the timesmenJB: Yes,but thereis a reason to make it large. I am not interested in tionedon the paper.And thatis how this kind of drawingsometimes
repeating the concept of blackboards. The blackboard is not a means
appeared.I see no reasonto enlargethe quantityof drawings.Somewhich is used in a studio. It only appears in a dialogue, principally.
times I feel I alreadymadetoo many.
22

BR: You talk about them as being the materialization of idea;

how can there be too many of them?
JB: Repetitionis the horrorfor me, you see. So I materializeenterprises:plantingtrees,makingagriculturalthings. This is realwork,
realenterprise.It hasa lot of peopleeven.It is structuredlikean enterprise;you haveto fulfillall the socialrulesthathaveto be observedin
our society,such as:Peoplehaveto get theirincome;I haveto care;I
am responsiblefor the monthly incomeof everyworkerand cooperator, for the scientist, for the planters,for all the people who are
employedonly by season.We havea realstructurehere.We haveto
paytax;we haveto observeeveryrule;we haveto dealwith banks;we
haveto invest;we haveto workwith this interest.Thereareofficesin
Kassel,in Dusseldorf,in Hamburg,in Italy,and in otherplaces.So it
is utterlyreal.It is evenmorerealthanthe drawing,becauseit belongs
to daily life and it consistsonly in being a tree. It will continue to
grow when I am dead a long time. If the environmentalcondition
gets no worsethannow,it will stay400, 500, 600 years,andit will be
thick, like this. It is a long-timerealization.All those activitiesshifted me awayfromgettingmoreinvolvedin drawing.
BR: Is it a question of the contemplativeaetivity? Shiftingfrom
the eontemplativeto the aetive?
JB: Yes.Surelyit also has to do with the action.The action,and the
performancecharacter,was the firstform which broughtme out of
the regularmakingof drawings.The interestin this fieldwas transferredto the other thing. I think you can only continue to make
thingswith a realeffectivenessif you changethe medium.Youcannot
maintainall the otherthingswhilenew thingsarecomingup asnecessitiesor innerlogic.When one thingis done, the nextappears.In this
procedure,whichfollowsa speciallogic,whatareknownas the drawings of JosephBeuysareless important.But I am still thinkingabout
anothercharacterof drawings.I do not evenknowwhattypeof drawing, but I think it has to relateto a kind of otherdimension.
BR: I wonder about drawing as an activity, as being a so-caled,
quote, verytraditional art-orientedactivity. Whatyou seem to be
talking about is an inereasing radicalization of the idea of what
art can be and howyou can make it. As you do that, you leave off
the drawing. Is that becausedrawing in itself cannot be radicalized in that way?
JB: Sometimes drawinglooks very traditional,that'strue. And if
there is a resultthat looks more traditional,I have nothing against
this. Sometimesyou can find some characterof the pastin my drawing; but nevertheless,I think I would not havedone the drawingif I
had only followedtraditionand if it had no other elementin it, no
otherlife. I think therearesome elementsin my drawingwhichyou
cannot find in traditionaldrawings.
BR: So you can tranformzthat traditional element?
JB: Yes.

BR: This is a central questionfor me, whether this can really be

done, whetheryou realy feel that you can elude that traditional
characterwith thepencil, and the sheet ofpaper.
JB: I don'tknow.Anotherthing to think of is that you might soon
be workingin your own tradition,and this I try to avoid too. If I
would againproduceas manydrawingsas I did in the fifties,I would
feel trappedin my own tradition.If I find no realrevolutionarynext
step for the drawings,I will leave them. I will say, "That is what I
could do",and I will startagainonly when I find anotherpoint that
I feelis anotherbridge.Veryoften artistsaretrappedin theirown traditions.That is a veryreal,dangerousthing.
BR: That'sa realproblemfor artists, always.A number of artists
in the late sixties and early seventiesfound a way to make radical
drawings-by changing scale, by changing location, even by
changingmeans. That was a very, very radical moment, notjust
for drawing butfor art in general It would be interestingto see
another developmentlike that now, becausesomeyounger artists,
it seems, are not only making traditional drawings but they are
already making drawings in their own tradition.
JB: Yes,right.That is the reasonwhy it is now only by chancethat a
drawingsometimes appears.From 1980 until now, I have made
maybefouror five drawings,but no more.
I haveno ideaif I will come againto drawings.Shut me in a special spaceand commissionme to producedrawings,then I produce
drawings.Sometimesfor an exhibition,for instance,if I have nothing to exhibit,if you shut me in for, say,threedays,give me a bit of
coffeeor food, theymayhappen.This kind of thing is alsoveryinterestingfor me. Youarein anothersituation,and then out of this other psychologicalcondition you develop something. So if you are
interestedin drawings,or in having drawingsin the MoMA, you
have to shut me in the MoMA in some obscurecellaror garretor
whatever.Afterthreedaysyou can look for the result.

Thinking is Form:The Drawingsof JosephBeuys, on viewthrough

May 4, wasco-organized
by BerniceRose,Senior
Curator,Department
of Drawings,TheMuseumof ModernArt, and Ann Temkin,Muriel
andPhilipBermanCuratorof Twentieth-CenturyArt,
thePhiladelphia
MuseumofArt. Theexhibitionis madepossiblebygenerousgrantsfrom
the Ministryof ForeignAffairsof the FederalRepublicof Germany,
DeutscheBank, ThePew CharitableTrusts,LufthansaGermanAirlines,TheAndyWarholFoundation
for the VisualArts,Inc., TheBohen
Foundation,and theNationalEndowment
for theArts.An indemnity
has beengrantedby theFederalCouncilon theArtsand the Humanities. TheNew Yorkshowinghas beensupported
generouslybyMr. and
Mrs. RonaldS. Lauder,with additionalassistance
from The Solow
Foundation.
Thepublication
issupported
inpart bygrantsfrom
Mr.and
Mrs. RonaldS. Lauder,New Yorkand Mr. and Mrs.JosefFroehlich,
Stuttgart.
?I993

The Museumof ModernArt. No reprintwithout permission.

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