DOTHEM@TH

InterviewwithKeithJarrett
(ReprintedfromoldDTM;originallypostedSeptember2009.ThankstoPeggySuonofBBCsJazzon3for
arrangingtheinterview.SteveWeisswastheengineerandBradleyFarbermanhandledthetranscription.)

EthanIverson:Doyouplaythepianoeveryday?
KeithJarre:NowIdo,yeah.Therewasalongtimeinmylife(whenIwasill)whenIdidntpractice
reallyatallregularly,butnow,yes,Ido.ItreallydependsonwhatIamworkingtowardsorawayfrom
orboth.SometimesIhavetoslowlyeraseonethingandmovetowardsanother.
IwasjustworkingonBachoverthelastfewmonths,andnowIhavetoshelvethatandpretendthatI
knowhowtodoasoloconcert,andwhileImpretendingthat,thatspracticing.But!IthoughtIwas
goingtoshelvetheBach,butnowImplayingtheBach,andforthelasttwentyveminutesIdothe
otherthinganditworksverywell.BecausebythetimeIdothengerworkthatBachrequires,andthe
controlthing,myngersarereadytobecompletelyoutofcontrolandincontrolatthesametime.I
didntrealizethatitwashelpingmeimproviseuntilGaryPeacocklookedatmebetweensetsandsaid,
Whateveryouredoing,keepdoingit.
EI:So,atonepoint,goingbetweenjazzandclassicalfeltlikemoreofanembouchurechangethanit
doesnow?Isitbeginningtoevenout?
KJ:Itreallydepends.WhenIwasgeingreadytorecordMozartIcouldnthavemixedboth.Andin
general,thatsthecase.Igenerallydontmixthings.ButIveseenhowitseemstoworkthistime,and
Imjusttakingadvantageofit.ProbablyIminbeershapethanIwasbefore,duetosomeofthe
paernsBachforcesuponyou.Thejazzplayerdoesnteverplaythesepaerns:theydontcomeup;
certainlynotinthelefthand.Andworkingonthengeringputsyouinahypnoticstate,playingthe
samephrasedownonehalfstepatatimeordownascale,andyouredoingthesamengeringbutit
isntthesamengering,dependingonhowmanyblackkeysareinvolved.AndBachhasthiscrazy
abilitytochangekeyinthemiddleofascale.Soyouvechangedharmoniccenterintheprocessof
playingwhatyouthoughtwasasimplescalesoyoucanttakeyoureyesothemusic.Andevenwith
thebassline,ifyoustoplookingyouthinkyouknowwhatitis,buthealwaysthoughtitoutsowellthat
itsnotalwaysnotpredictable,buthisnoteisalwaysbeerthanyours.
EI:Doyouworkoutyourngeringsearlyon,orkeepexperimenting?

EI:Doyouworkoutyourngeringsearlyon,orkeepexperimenting?
KJ:Ivehadallkindsofexperiences.WiththeShostakovich,Ijustplayeditandplayeditandplayedit.
WhenIrealizedIwasgoingtorecordit,Ihadtosaytomyself,wait:Ivegottondaneditedversionof
thiswithngerings!BecausewhatInormallydoisnddierentngeringseverytimeIplay,probably.I
justimprovisethatpartofit.Itworkssometimes,butitdoesntworkinthestudio,whenyoudontwant
todoasecondtake.SoIwentthroughthreedierenteditionsoftheShostakovichandendedupwith
absolutelynongering:theUrtext,withnongeringsatall,andthatsalwayswhatIpreferintheend.
WiththeBach,Ivebeenabletostickwiththat.Idontevenlikemakingamarkonthepage
EI:Whatabouttheornamentation?Doyouplaythatdierentlyeverytime?
KJ:Isortoffeelmywaythroughthat.Bachwassaidtohavesaidthateverythinghewroteiniswhathe
meant,andthatitsnotsupposedtohaveneededanythingadded.ButIhearthingsoccasionally,
dependingonwhatsgoingon;Iletthingshappen.ButIalsoknowtraditionalperformancepracticefor
thosetrillsandornaments.Itssurprisinghowmuchthathasbecomepartofmesincemyharpsichord
learningyearsinthe80s.However,whenyouapplythesameornamentstopiano,youcanendupin
troublebecausetheresistanceissomassive.
EI:IthinkFranzLisztsaidsomewherethattheheartofpianovirtuositywasthetrillthatifyoucould
playthose,youcouldplayanything.
KJ:Umhmm.Yeah.Youknow,harpsichordistsdontlearnthe23132313ngering,theydontlearn
thealternatingsecondngersoyougivetheotheroneabreak,theyonlylearnthetwongertrills.
Evenonpiano,Imndingthatthetwongertrillisbeerifyoucandoit,becauseitsmoreeven.
IfyourbackgroundisfromacertaincountrylikeSweden,theremightbeatendencytoplaydrier.Ifyou
watcholdBergmanmovies,whentheyreeatingitsalmostobscene:everythingisdrilyclosemikedand
youheartheforkssoundgoingintothecornorwhatever.Butifyourefrom,letssay,aSlaviccountry,
theresgoingtobegustointheplayingandmaybeevenakindofunrenementthatisnotbad,butjust
dierent.ThensomeGermantypesthinktheyknowexactlywhoBachis.But,actually,iftheseguys
werealive
OnceIwasplayingMozartonaboatwiththeEnglishChamberOrchestraconductedbyVladimir
Ashkenazy.Iplayedsomelileextranotesinsideoneortwoplaces.Aftertherehearsalhesaidtome,in
totaldisbelief,ConversationswithMozart?
AndIsaid,Whynot?Hey,ifhewasonthisship,whatdoyouthinkhewouldsay?Imean,wouldhe
sayno,no,no,no?IdonthavethatimpressionaboutwhoMozartwas.Ithinkhewouldsay,Thats
interestingImnotsayinghewouldthinkitwasnecessary,butIdontthinkhewouldbeupset.Ive
hadthatexperienceasacomposer.WhenInishedtheonlypianopieceIvewrienout,Ritual,I
thought,Imthelastpersonwhoshouldplaythis.Inadditiontobeingaconductor,DennisRussell
Daviesisaverygoodpianist,soIsaid,Here!Dennis!Takethismusicseewhatyouthink.Iheard
himrehearsingit:IsatinthehallinCabrillo,Californiawhilehewaspracticing,andafterwardshesaid,
Keith:Whatdothink?
Isaid:Cool.Itsgood.
Isthereanythingyouwantmetodothat
No.
Onceyoudie,youbecomeanicon:adeadicon.LikeMozart.Butwhatwouldheactuallysaytoyouif

Onceyoudie,youbecomeanicon:adeadicon.LikeMozart.Butwhatwouldheactuallysaytoyouif
youcouldplayhismusicforhim?
EI:MozartandBachcomposedandperformedonsuchdierentinstrumentsthanwecanimaginenow.
Wellneverknowwhatthatmusicsoundedlikeatthetime.Theresdenitelyroomformaneuveringin
termsofacontemporaryinterpretation.Theybothimprovisedallthetime,anyway.Idisagreewith
Ashkenazysaying,ConversationswithMozart?
KJ:Ido,too,althoughIseebothsides.Peopleoftenaskme,whosecadenzasareyouplaying?Or:Why
arentyouimprovisingyourcadenzas?AndtheanswerissimplythatIcantmixbothsides,the
improvisingwiththeclassicalperformance.AndIdontwanttowriteacadenza;therearesomany
reallygoodcadenzasavailablealready.Idontwanttogetintothepartofmethatisntaninterpreter.
EI:ButyoudidimproviseacadenzaintheLouHarrisonConcerto.
KJ:Thatstrue,butthatsamodernpiece.Imtalkingabouttheoldguyswhogavetheplayerachance
tobethemselves,butinthelanguageoftheday.GidonKremerdoestheAlfredSchnikecadenzafor
theBeethovenViolinConcerto,andtheaudiencegoes,Ohmy,thatssoweird!Thatemotionisnot
somethingImlookingfor:IftheresaMozartcadenza,Iplaythat,andiftheresnot,theresverygood
cadenzasbypeoplewhowerethereandthatlanguagewastheirthing.
EI:IwasjustlisteningtotheHarrisonConcertothismorning:Itsabeautifulwork.
KJ:Itis!Thatwasactuallysupposedtobeadocumentaryrecording,butitbecameanocialNew
WorldreleasebecauseNaotoOtomoandtheNewJapanPhilharmonicknewwhattodowiththedrum
part.Everybodyelsethatplayedthispiecewasinformedbythewayclassicalpercussionistsalways
worrythattheyshouldntprotrudefromthetexture.Andtheresthekotodrummertraditionoverthere.
Atrst,Icouldntgureoutwhythehellthismusichadnallycometolife,anditoccurredtomethat
theyhaveadrumtraditionwedonthave.Overthere,ifaclassicalpercussionistseesforteorwhatever
Loumighthavewrienontheirpart,theygoforit.Overhere,theywoulddiminishtheaack.Therst
timeIplayeditwaswithDennisRussellDaviesandtheAmericanComposersOrchestra,andIexpected
ittobereallygood.ButIalmostdidntevennoticethedrumsintheStampede,andthatsthebiggest
thinginthatmovement!
EI:Thisischangingevenaswespeak,butitscertainlytruethatclassicalpercussionistsaretraditionally
preyworthlessintermsofgeneratinggrooveorrhythmicexcitement.
KJ:Yeah,itsaboringjob.
EI:Especiallywhenyouthinkofdrummerseverywhereelse.
KJ:Whywouldyouwanttobeconducted,anyway,ifyoureadrummer?
EI:Arealpetpeeveofmineisconductorswhostandwavingtheirarmsfranticallyinfrontofjazzbig
bandsplayingobvious4/4swing.CanyouimagineCountBasiedoingthis?
KJ:IsawtheCountBasiebandseveraltimeswhenIwasakid.Inthe50sMan,theywereswinging
sohardnooneinthatbandneededaconductor!
EI:WasSonnyPayneondrums?
KJ:YesAroundNewHopetherewasamusictent,andIsawBasieandDaveBrubeckthere.Iheard

KJ:YesAroundNewHopetherewasamusictent,andIsawBasieandDaveBrubeckthere.Iheard
theBrubeckquartetalot.IlivedinAllentown,andtherewasntmuchelsethatplayedinthearea.
EI:WasthattheclassicquartetwithPaulDesmondandJoeMorello?
KJ:Yeah!
EI:IlovePaulDesmondsomuch.Andyourecordedhisballad,LateLament.
KJ:LateLamentisabeautifulsong.PaulDesmondcameuptomeonceandsaid,Keepitup,Keith.
WhenIheardtheBrubeckquartetasIkid,though,Irememberhavingthethoughtprobablyabout
Davemorethananybodyelsethatmorecouldbedone.Itwasgoodthatthatgroupexisted.Therewas
noothergroupthatcameouttoAllentown.Nobodyelsedid!
EI:IthinkthatmostprofessionaljazzplayersdontlistBrubeckasoneoftheirtoptenpianists,buton
thoseearly50sliverecordswithDesmondplayingstandardslikeMyFoolishThings,hesreally
goingforit:startingwithasimpleideaandtryingtobuildavastediceoutofit.Idontthinkanybody
reallydidthatbeforehim.
KJ:Idontthinkpeopledidsoloworkthatmuch,either.TherewasasoloalbumthatBrubeckreleased
thatwasimportant.ProbablybesidesBrubeckandLennieTristano,therewasntmuchelseformodern
playinginasolocontext.
EI:TherewasaMonkalbumortwo
KJ:Yeah,OK,true.AboutBrubeck,though,Irememberalsothattherewasanexacttranscription,some
sheetmusic,ofthosepieces.AndIlearnedalotfromthat!Iwasntgoingtotranscribeitmyself,butnow
IcouldplaythroughandseewhyIlikedwhatIliked.Ofcourse,IwasyoungenoughthatIneededall
thelisteningandplayingexperienceIcouldget.
EI:Howoldwereyou?
KJ:Ididntgetinterestedinjazzuntilmyearlyteens.Maybe14orsomething.
EI:Howdidyougoabouttryingtogettherecords?
KJ:Thatwashard.Thatwasalmostimpossible.Theyhadjustinventedthemall:really,itwasntmalls
quiteyet,butbigstoreswithvariousshopsallonthesameoorthathadrecorddepartments.There
wasoneinBethlehemthatIthoughthadthebestselection.TherewasarecordstoreinAllentown,too.
Butinbothplacesyouhadtogothrougheveryrecordtomaybekindofcomeacrosssomethingthatthe
buyerhadmadeamistakepurchasingandtheone,mostimportantmistaketheymadethere,ifthey
wantedmetostayinAllentownandstaywhite,washavingthewhiteAhmadJamalalbum.
EI:ThedoubleLP,right?[Iveseenthis:itsacollectionofPershingmaterialincludingPoincianaandother
familiarJamalrecordings,withIsraelCrosbyandVernelFournier.]
KJ:Yes.Isaidtomyself,Whosthis?Iknowtheotherguys:ImalwaysseeingBrubeck,Oscar
Peterson,ErrollGarner,AndrePrevin(IwasforcedtothinkofPrevinasajazzplayerforquitesome
time.)ButwhosthisAhmadJamal?

Ialwayswantedtondoutwhatwashappening,soIboughtitItchangedeverythingaboutwhatI

Ialwayswantedtondoutwhatwashappening,soIboughtitItchangedeverythingaboutwhatI
thoughtcouldhappen.Uptothenitwasavirtuositything:playingfast,orswinging.(Atleastswinging
wasthere.)Butthentherewasaspatialthing,andnotaneedforconstantplaying.Iusedtopractice
drumstothatalbumallthetime:nottogetridofVernelFournier,butbecauseVernelwassowonderful.
Hedidntevenhavetopickupthesticksbutdidjustincrediblestuwithbrushes.
Asitturnsout,GaryPeacock,JackDeJohneeandIallhadthatsamewhitealbum.
EI:Aha!ThesecretDNAoftheStandardsTrio.
KJ:JackisveryclosewithAhmad,andapparentlyAhmadhastoldJackthatherecommendsthat
peoplelistentous,soitallcomesback.
EI:WhenyoumentionOscar,Erroll,andBrubeck,Ithinkofsomegreatmusic,butmusicthathas
drummersthataremerelypresent,notdistinctive.
KJ:Itsjustanexpresstrain,movingalong.
EI:ButwithAhmad,IimmediatelythinkofthedrumsnotjustVernelbutFrankGantandIdris
Muhammad,too.
KJ:Andtheaccents!andthewaythattheydealtwithspace:ThatswhyMileswassotakenwith
them.
EI:DidyougettheMilesrecordsinAllentown?
KJ:No.
IdidntheartoomanyimportantplayersuntilIgotoutofthere.IwenttotheStanKentonbandcampsa
coupletimesanddidmyrstrecord,reallyyoung.ItookabustoChicagoforthat.DonJacobiheardme
playatthecampsandwantedmetobepartofthisAllStarCollegeBand,eventhoughIwasntcloseto
collegeage.Ihadneverstayedinahotelbeforethistrip,neverbeeninthestudioandthepianoparts
werejustafewblockchordsandsomeornamentalscalesandarpeggiosontheballads.
EI:Iveheardthatrecord:youdontgetasolo!
KJ:Thatwastheresultofthebandcamps,atwhichIalsometsomegreatbigbandplayersfromNorth
TexasStatethatKentonhired.ThenIwenttoAtlanticCityandPosville,PA;thesearethetwoplaces
thathadbigbandswhenthebigbanderawasstillcookingwhenKentonplayedandtheguysinthe
bandwouldtellStantoletmesitin.Stanwouldrathernotplaythepiano,andmostpeoplewould
rathernothearhimplay,either,soheletme.
WhenIwenttoBerklee,myrstactualexperienceplayingwithrststringplayersinasmallband
contextwaswithHerbPomeroy,whowasaverygoodplayer.Whentherewasntanybignamecoming
throughheusedtobringaquartetwithJohnNevs,whowasblackandareallygoodplayer,andRay
Santisi,mysocalledpianoteacheratBerklee,althoughallwedidinthelessonswaslisten:Hedalways
say,Whatshouldwelistentotoday?HeknewthatwaswhatIneeded,thathewasntgoingtoteach
meotherwise.AndthatswhatIwouldhavetoldmystudentsifIwerehim.Anyway,Herbwouldbring
thisgroupintotheJazzWorkshopinBoston,whichwasthesinglemostimportantplaceinmylife.

WhenIwas15orso,goingthroughtownwithFredWaringandhisPennsylvanians,IheardBillEvans

WhenIwas15orso,goingthroughtownwithFredWaringandhisPennsylvanians,IheardBillEvans
playtherewithPaulMotianandGaryPeacock.At15,ImhearingPaulandGaryforthersttime!AndI
hadntreallyheardmuchofBillyet,eventhoughpeoplesaidIsoundedlikehim.
EI:Didyouenjoythatperformance?
KJ:Ohyeah,itwasbeautiful.Billmighthavebeentoohightoenjoyithimself;hewasspeedingupor
slowingdownorboth,Idontknowwhat.(Garywouldknow.)
WhileIwasstillatBerklee,IwasworkingupstairsattheJazzWorkshopatthebar,accompanying
singers,whichIliked.Wehadabreak,andIwentdownstairsanddidnthearanymusic,andIthought
whatsgoingon?HerbknewmefromBerkleebigbandclass,andJohnsaid,soyouwanttoplay?Isaid,
Yeah!Johnsaid,Rayslatewewanttogetstarted.PeteLaRocasondrums.Isaid,OK!meaning,
hey,OK,ofallthedrummersIhadheardupuntilthen,PetewasoneoftheguysIconsideredasoneof
thebestexamplesofhowyoucouldplaywithoutsoundinglikeanybodyelse.Andhistimeconceptwas
unusualandIrealizedthisisnotamateurnightanymore!Thatwasawonderfulfewtunes.
EI:CharlieHadentoldmerecentlyhowmuchhelovedPeteLaRocasplaying.
IwonderifpeopletoldyouyousoundedlikeBillEvansbecauseBill,Ahmad,andyourselfareall
dedicatedtovoiceleading.Theresacommonthreadofavoidingstockharmony.
KJ:Voiceleadingismelodywritinginthecenteroftheharmony.Ifyoucandoit,youreluckyenough
togettoamomentwhereyoucanactuallyndmorethanonethinghappeningandtracethosethingsat
thesametimetoalogicalnextplaceorillogicalplacereallyitdoesntmaersometimes!
Itssodierentthanwhatpeoplethinkwhentheylookataleadsheetandbuildthoseblockstheway
youlearnharmony.Theycantgetawayfromthisstructureofverticalplayingwithyourlefthandand
thenifyourelucky,maybeagoodideainyourright.
Butthethingis,partlybecauseIwastrainedasaclassicalplayer,Ibelieveyourhandsarentsupposed
tohaveonebedeadandonebealive.ThelongerImaround,themoreIrealizethat,especiallywhenI
haveagreatbiofeedbackmechanismhappeningwiththeaudienceplayingsolo:TheresnowayIcan
avoidhearingwhatImnotdoingwithmylefthand.Imnotdoingwhatcouldbedone.Somostofthe
time,recently,Imaskingmylefthandtotellmewhatitwantstodo.Becauseusuallyitsright,andmy
brainisjustlockedintosomesoundthatIlike,orworse,thatIusedtolike.
OnedayafewmonthsbeforethattriptoJapantorecordRadiance,Ihadastrongexperienceofplaying
somethingandthinking,Ilikedthatsound,andIdontlikeitanymore,butImstillplayingitasifIlike
it,sowhatsgoingon?Sotheonlywaytoanswerthequestionwas:stopplayingit.IfIndmyself
doingthatIjuststop.AndIjustsatthereforaminuteandthenstartedagain;andifthatkindofthing
happenedagainIdstopagain.Thatswhatcreatedthechangeinthesolothingsfromlong45minute
piecestoshortpieces.Exceptnowthatitisntforthereasonsthatitrsthappened.ItsnowbecauseI
realize:ashardasitistodothebeginningofanything,itsalsonotproductivetoplaysomethinglonger
thanitsalive.Ifitstartstosoundlikeitwantstobeover,youshouldnthavetokeepplaying.
EI:ThersttimeIlistenedtoRadianceIwasastounded:atthevirtuosity,butespeciallythelefthand
virtuosity.Because,despitetheworkdonebyyouandsomeothers,thenalfrontierofpiano
improvisingremainsthelefthand.
KJ:True!Itis.Thenalfrontier!Hello?Ihavealefthand.Itsusuallycurledintothesechordalthings

KJ:True!Itis.Thenalfrontier!Hello?Ihavealefthand.Itsusuallycurledintothesechordalthings
orvampingbutwhatelsecanitdo?Again,thatswheremyclassicaltraininghelps.
EI:Iimagineyoupracticedalotwhenyoung?
KJ:Igotouttoplaybasketball,too.Mygrandmotherwasahelp:shesetatimerforwhenIcouldstop
playing.ButsometimesIwouldcheatwhenshewasntlooking,andmovetheknobonthetimersoI
couldquitsooner.
EI:Besidestherepertoire,werethereanyspecialtechnicalexercisesyouworkedon?
KJ:No,notreally.

EI:WhenyouwereupinBoston,JakiByardwasupthere,too,right?YouplaythatByardblues
KJ:Ididntknowhimverywell.Ihadrespectforhim;IknewhisalbumwithSamRivers,RonCarter
andTonyWilliams,whichwasverytastysemiavantgardestu,sometimesout,sometimesin.Ireally
likedthatrecord.
IthinkImetJaki,actually,notinBostonbutattheDominNewYork,whenIstilldidnthaveanywork
andwaswaitingtositinanywhere.TonyScowasrunningtheDom:IplayedwithPaulMotianforthe
rsttimethere,andheremembersthat,too.(SomeonehadplayedmeanamazingtapeofLowell
DavidsonplayingfreewithMotian,andIcouldntbelieveitwasPaulondrums:IhadonlyheardPaul
withBillandsaid,Whothehellisthatdrummer?WhentheytoldmeitwasPaul,Iputthat
informationawayinmymentalle.)IheardJakiattheDomquiteafewtimes,andsometimeshewould
justbethere.Onetime,afterIplayedsomestandard,Jakicameuptomeandsaid,Yourenotplaying
therightchanges:thosearetheMilesDavischanges.Lateron,hetoldRolandKirkIwasplayingin
jeanswiththetrio,andRolandKirktoldmeointhekitchenoftheVanguard:Youhavetocreate
respectforthismusic:dontplayinjeans!Ah,thejazzworld.
EI:Jakiisfamousforplayingthehistoryofjazz;stridepiano,etc.butIactuallyappreciatehismore
avantgardemovesontherecordswithRivers,EricDolphy,andMingus.Hecanbequiteexploratory.
KJ:Exploratorybutalsotasty.AndrewHillalsohadthatquality.Butmostoftheguysthatwentout
didntalwayshavethatkindofalignmentwithgrace.[Nameomied]hadincrediblepotentialandplayed
tunesgreat,butwhenhewentout,itsoundedlikeclumpsofshrapnel.
EI:WhataboutHerbieHancock?Youmusthavecheckedhimoutbutyoudontsoundinuencedby
him.
KJ:Thatsagoodobservation.InhisplayingwithMiles,Herbiesharmonicintelligenceisreallyworth
hearing.Butitisntmyway,althoughHerbieisgoodatvoiceleading,too.Imdisappointedattheway
Herbiewentsoelectricforsolong.
Itseemslikemasteryisbeinglostintheworldandinartrightnow.Theonlywayyoucanactually
mastersomethingorhopetomasteritisifitsticksaround,anddoesntchange,technologically.
WhenIthinkofthepianistswhowentelectronic,orelectric,longenough,andthenthought,Hey,I
cangobacktothat.Theycallitback.Iwouldcallitforward!Nowitscalledacousticpiano.
Thatsthemistake.Likestandupbass.Thechanceformasteryonlyhappensifyourinstrumentdoes
notchange.AndifyouchangealongwithtechnologicalchangesthatoccurIhaventseenanybody

notchange.AndifyouchangealongwithtechnologicalchangesthatoccurIhaventseenanybody
successfullygoback.Ihaventseenthemgotothepiano,afteracertainamountoftimeaway,orafter
theirconsciousnessisnotwiththepiano,andworkonitagain,andstartfromwheretheystopped.
Theyreactuallystartingfromsomeotheralienplace,theydontknowwhattouchisanymore,ifthey
everdid,butallthosethingsaregoingtodisappearfastiftheydontconsiderthemutmostintheir
mind.Andwhenpeoplemasterthings,likeletssaytheMuranoglasspeople,outsideofVenice.Those
aregenerationsofpeoplewhovegenerations?Theyrestillworkingontheirglass.Luckily,theglass
didntmorph,andyoudidnthaveelectronicglass.
EI:Whatabouttouch,andtouchingthepiano?
KJ:Whataboutit?
EI:Youresomeonethatgetsacertainsoundoutofthepiano.Thatsyoursound.Nooneelsegetsthat
sound,andIknowitsnotthepiano.Itsnotlikeyouhaveonespecialpiano.Yougetthatsound;itson
yourearliestrecords,onwhateverinstrument,Ithinkevensomeuprightsinsomecases.
KJ:Forgeingthemusicalcontentforamoment,ifamusicianisworkingonhisorhervoice,heorshe
istryingtomatchwhathehearsinhisheadwithwhathehearswhenheplays.Theonlyexplanationfor
thatdierenceinsoundcomingoutofthepianoisthat.Otherwise,itcouldntbeconsistent.Itjust
couldntbeconsistent.NotwithallthedierentkindsoftouchIvebeenusing,especiallyrecently.
ButIhadatremendouslyimportantrevelationinEuropeinthe60s,whenIwasplayingwithAldo
RomanoandJ.F.JennyClark.Andwetookabreak,wewereplayinginBelgium.Uptothatmoment,I
thoughtrstyoulearntoplayyourinstrumentandgettechnicallyprocient.Andfromwhateveryone
elsesaid,andatthispointyouweresupposedtoplaywhatyoulikedanddontplaywhatyoudont
like.Youvegonethroughthewholething,letshopeyouknowhowtoplaythepiano,letshopethat
youcanplaywhateveryouthinkofplaying.Youalsoeliminatewhatyoudontlikeinyourplaying,you
automaticallydothat.Atonepointyousaytoyourself,Well,Ikindofhaveavoice,Iguess.Or
someonetellsyouthat.
Deweyoncecalledmeandsaid,DoIhaveavoice?Thisiswhenhewassick,andhewasreallynot
doingwell,andhissonwasabigdeal.Hewasrighttoaskthatquestioninaway,becausehewas
depressed,andheneededsomesupport.Isaid,Dewey,dontthinkaboutthateveragain.Thatiswhat
youhave.Itsyours!
Anyway,backtothisstory:WhenwetookthatbreakinBelgium,andIwalkedbackonstage,Irealized
itsassimpleasthis,thiswasthephrasethatenteredmymind:NowIcanjustplaythepiano.What
happensis,yourvoiceisntgoingtogoanywhere.Butifyoutrytopossessit,byplayingonlythethings
youlike,forever,youwillthensoundlikealltheseotherguyswhobecamestylists,andeverybody
knowshowgoodtheyare,andyoudontexpectanysurprises,certainlynobigsurprises.Youdont
expecttobeconfrontedwithanewreality.Becauseyouthinkyouknowwhotheseguysare.Sovoiceis
likepersonality.Andthenafteryouhavethispersonality,whatyouwannadoisgetitoutofthere,in
thesenseofitbeingaconsciousthing.Becauseyourenevergonnalosewhatyougained,butifyou
donttakeitfurther,youwilljuststagnateandyoullbeoneofthoseguysthats,wellRemember
howhesounded?Yeah,yeah,itwascool,itwasgood.
Forme,ifIdontplaysomethingthatdoesntchallengemyconceptofwhatIlikedbeforethatsecond,
somethingswrong.Sowhatyoudoisyoucreateacell,letscallit.Andthatcellisyourvoice.And
thenyouwantthatcelltoreplicateinwhateverdirectionitwantstopermicrosecond.Andthatswhen
youexpandit,anditbecomesnotapersonalityanymore,itbecomesabiofeedbackmechanism.

youexpandit,anditbecomesnotapersonalityanymore,itbecomesabiofeedbackmechanism.
Otherwise,whatfeedbackdoyougetfromplayingwhatyoulike?Okay,hey,Ireallylikethatchord,
Imgonnausethatchordagain.
Butyouhavetolivethroughcertainexperiencesbeforeyoucanactuallyputintoplaycertainthings.For
example,Iusedtosaytomystudents,Playlikeyouthinkitsgoingbethelasttime.Thatstheonly
waytoplay.AndwhenItoldthemthat,Ihadnthadthatexperience.Ijustknewthatwasbasically
correct.Okay,socertainthingshappentoyouinyourlife.Letssayyougetadivorce.Yourhouseburns
down.Youhavebigexperiences.Andyougetchronicfatiguesyndrome.Oryougetsomekindof
problemwithyourphysicalhealth,yourhands.Ifyoucanstillplay,youhavetoplayasthoughits
goingbethelasttime.Whenyougetmoreandmoretowardsthat,itsmoreandmoretrue.Soyoucan
actuallydobeerwork,becauseitsreal.Itsnottheoretical.
EI:Onthelasttwoavailablesoloconcerts,theresaremarkableinfusionof(Ihopethistermwont
botheryou)atonality.
KJ:Yeah.Doesntbotherme.
EI:Historically,youreprobablytherstpersonthatisascomfortableplayinginacompletelyatonal
contextaswellasonjustaDMajortriadfortwentyminutes.Ithinkitswonderfulthattheatonalsideis
soforthrightontheselastrecords.
KJ:Iwouldcallitmultitonal.Imean,inaverystrangeway,theresnosuchthingasatonal.Its
likewhenyourelisteningtoabadspeakersystem,yourearmakesupforwhatyouremissing.Ifyou
knowtherecording,youknowwhatsonit.Evenifyoudontknowtherecording,andyoulivewiththis
lilespeakersystem,yougoagetsomethingfromit.AtBerklee,Ihadthislunchboxsizedrecord
player.Therecordwasbiggerthanthebox.ButIwasntmissinganything!
Istartedtorealizetheuniverseactuallyrequiresallsounds,inaway.Andsoifyouwanttobe
anthropomorphicorwhateverthatis,thereisnosuchthingasatonality.Youreeitherpuingmore
colorstogether,oryouarepuingless.Oryourechoosing.Sotonalityisachoice.Buteveninthe
concertsyouhaventheard,theresmoreandmoreofthis.
WhenIdidtheCarnegieHallconcert,somebodycameuptomewhoIknew,whoIhadntseenfora
while,andtheysaid,Oh,Ilovethoselileatonalinterludesbetweenthethings.AndIsaid,You
know,thankyouforsayingthat!Therestwothings:Oneis,Iwishtheycouldgoonforever.Noone
willeverhearthisinconcert,becauseIwouldbeaskingsomuchfromtheaudience.Butinmystudio,
thathappensforthirtyminutesatatime,andmaybeitcouldgoonforever.Theotherthingisshehad
saidshelikedtheinterludes,soshewasfocusingontheotherthingsastherealcontent.Itmademe
realizethatIhadsomemoreworktodo.Toletthosethingscomeoutevenmore.Toletthemplayout.
EI:Totalkaboutvoiceleadingagain:everythingiscontrolledinthoseimprovisations.Itsveryeasy
whenyoureshovelingaroundsomanythousandsofnotestohavesomeofthepitchesbecomealile
careless,especiallywhenitsalessobviouslytonalcontext.Butwhatsextraordinaryisthatyourestill
voiceleadingallthelilemelodiesevenatareallyrapidvelocityandinaveryfreeharmonicsituation.
KJ:Yeah.AndIhavetosay,thereleasesuptonowdonteventouchtheParisandLondonrecordings
thatshouldcomeoutinthefall,andwhichencapsulatethismore,even.Andthenthemorerecentthings
continuetodothat.
Forexample,attheLondonconcert,IhadhadthisstupidDbMajorsomehoworotherDbwasinmy

Forexample,attheLondonconcert,IhadhadthisstupidDbMajorsomehoworotherDbwasinmy
head.AndIknewIwasgoingtonotplayinDb.IvesaidbeforethatIdontwanttohaveanythoughts
inmyhead,butthisonewasjustnotgoingaway.Anditwasntenoughofamusicalthoughttocallit
musical.Itwasjustthat,somehoworother,IfeltthatIbeerjustgetitout,whateveritwas.Andso,in
theLondonconcerts,therewasauniquebeginningtoaconcert.Itsnotgradualliketheoldsoloconcerts
were,whereitstartsinaharmonicallyokayplaceanditsortofbuildsslowlyintomelodiesandmotifs.
Now,recently,itsbeenmorelike,Go!Butthiswasnoneofthosethings,thiswassomething
mysterious,itwasslow,anditwas,again,likecellularconstruction.Youcouldntexpectwherethenext
thingwouldpopup.Andsomebodycamebackstage,amusician,probablyaverygoodonebecausehe
hadthiscomment,hesaid,Duringtherstpieceoftherstset,theoneImtalkingabouthesaid,
Icouldnthandleit.Imean,Icouldnthandleit.Ihadtogooutandgetaglassofwater.Youwere
puingsomuchintothis.AndIsaid,ImgladIdidntgetthirsty!
ButIthink,letscallitthecolorgamut,theyusethatphraseinphotography,isinnite.Anditscertainly
notinniteonpiano,butitcanseeminniteifyouknowhow.Andtobeperfectlyhonest,theoretically,
apieceofmusiclikethatcouldgoonfortherestofmylife.Itssoabsorbing,Icouldliveinthere.And
thatswhatIwastryingtotalkaboutwiththegeingyourvoicething.Youhavetosortofdropitsoyou
canseehowbeautifulalltheotherthingsarenowthatyoucandoonthesamekeyboard,notworrying
anymoreaboutyourvoice.Forgetaboutit.Anditllstaythere,becauseImsureyouwereawarethatit
wasmeplaying,andyetIwasntplayingthesameway.
SomebodyaskedGary,youmustveheardthisorseenthis,onsomevideoabouttouch,andwhatwasit
liketoplaywithBillversusKeith.Itwaskindofadangerousquestiontoask.AndGarywasreallygood,
hesaidsomethinglike,Well,Billdidnthaveatouch,hehadasound.Itwasalwaysthesamesound.
Keithmodulatesthetouchdependingonwhattheneedsofthemusicare.Touch,injazz,ispreyrare,
inthesensethatyoucanchoosefromavastarrayofthings.
EI:Although,Ithinktheminuteyouputaridecymbalonstage,youveeliminatedsixtypercentof
whatthepianocando.
KJ:Thatspartlytrue.Yeah.
EI:ButIactuallythinkthatssomethingimportanttojazzpianoinaway.Thesoundhasthatthingthat
ghtsagainstaridecymbal.
KJ:Yeah,itisntthatplayersdonthavethatsound,anditisntthattheydontwantthatsound.Itsjust
thatIthinktheresbeenaverymuchlowerconsciousnessofthatelement.Youknow,intheclassical
world,someofthosepeoplearecomingbecauseofmytouch.Whereas,probablythatstruewiththe
jazzpeople,too,butitmightnotbetherstthingtheythinkof.Theyrethinkingofideas.Or,pulse.
EI:Myimpressionisthatmostjazzpianistswouldhavetroubleplayingbelowacertaindynamic
consistently.
KJ:Classicalplayersneverpound,buttheyalsoneveractuallygetsoft,soft,soft,soft,tothepointof
riskingthatthenotewontplay.BenedeiMichelangeliisanexception.
EI:Hessomarvelous.
KJ:Yeah.HecoulddothatinthemiddleofaRavelconcerto.Healmostdidntgetthatone!
EI:IreadsomewherethatMilesDavisandBillEvanswerelisteningtoBenedeiMichelangelisRavel

EI:IreadsomewherethatMilesDavisandBillEvanswerelisteningtoBenedeiMichelangelisRavel
concertoinadvanceofKindofBlue.
KJ:Thatmakessense.
EI:ThatrecordcoupledwithRachmaninosfourthconcerto.
KJ:Yeah,thatstheoneImtalkingabout.
EI:Thatsbeautiful.Isthereanyoneelsethatyouadmireintheclassicalworldlikethat?
KJ:Well,notforthesamereasons,no.Buttheresgreatplayerseverywhere.
Ivehadmypianosworkedonsomanytimestotrytotweakthemtoaplaceeitherforpracticingorfor
recording.Andyoujustcantgeteverythingoutofanything.ThatswhyIlikemeetingnew
instruments.Theyallhavesomethingtooer.Untilyougettoonesthatyouseethroughthe
soundboardtotheoor.Thentheydontusuallyhavemuch!Buttouchdoescome.Pianistsareastrange
groupofpeoplebecausetheydonthavetoknowabouttheirinstrument.Thepianotunerscome,work
onit,dothingsandsay,Bytheway,youneedthis.Andyousay,Oh,okay,ifyourecasualaboutit.
Youdonthavetoknowaboutthepiano.Butifyourecarryingyourutearound,oryourecarryinga
horn,bass,guitaroranythingelse,probablyyoudoknowyourinstrument.Itcouldhelpthepianistsif
theyjustlearnedmoreabouttheirinstrument.Insteadofgoingtotheclubownerandsaying,Man,I
dontlikeyourpiano.Itsjust,itsreallybad.Idontlikeit,andhearingtheresponse:Well,Erroll
Garnerplayedonitlastweek,andnocomplaint,theycouldbemorespecic.
WhenIbroughtmyquartettotheJazzWorkshopinBostonforthersttime,Iwentuptotheclub
ownerandsaid,Youknow,yourpianoneedssomeandItoldhimwhatitneeded.Andhehad
neverheardthesethingsbefore.Itneededsomevoicing,Icantrememberwhatelse.AndIsaid,Im
askingforthistobedonesothatpeopledontcomplainaboutit.AndIllcomedownwhenheshere
andIllmakesurehesdoingwhatneedstobedone.Andhesaidokay.Uptothatpoint,peoplejust
said,Uh,youknow,itsashiypiano.Andhethought,Oh,thatsjustamusician.Hesinabad
mood.
EI:WasthatthequartetwithDeweyandCharlieandPaul?
KJ:Yeah.
EI:Idlovetotalkaboutyourmusicalrelationships.BecauseIthinkitsverystrikingandunder
recognizedhowextraordinarilyfaithfulyouvebeentoacertaingroupofmusicians.Asaleader,youve
onlyrecordedwiththreebassplayers,threedrummers,andtwosaxophonists,inwhatfortyyearsor
something?Itsnotusuallywhatsdone.Forsomemusicians,theredbefortydierentbandsinforty
years.Itsclearthatyoubelieveinchemistry.
KJ:Imnotsurewhatyourquestionis
EI:Well,tellmeaboutCharlieHaden,forexample.
KJ:Itshisears.AndhissoundissospecicallygroundedandhisintonationissogoodHedoesnt
playabovehislimitsasatechnician.Charliesunique.IntheAmericangroup,theyhadtobelisteners,
andtheyhadtobeuniquelythemselves.Andtheyhadtobemasterfulplayers.
But,ifyoureaskingaboutpersonalityIwasliketheroadmanager,andIwasdrivingtheseguys

But,ifyoureaskingaboutpersonalityIwasliketheroadmanager,andIwasdrivingtheseguys
around,andCharliewashighallthetime,andDeweywasdrunkallthetime,andPaulwassober
enoughIfIhadnthadPaulasanally,Idprobablybeinamentalinstitution.Orneewasbackstage
once,andhecameuptomeandhesaid,Firstofall,Keith,yougoabeblack.Idontcarewhatyou
say.Youreplayingchurchmusic,man.Andthenhesaid,HowdoyoukeepCharlieandDeweyin
yourbandthislong?Becausehehadthem.HeobviouslykneweverywherewelandedCharliewas
gonnalookforahospital.AndDeweywasgonnalookforabar.
Butbasically,thequartetwasthisabsolutelyrawcommodity.Idontthinkanybodyelsewouldhave
thoughtofpuingthattogether.ForthersttrioIwasthinkingofSteveSwallowinthebeginning.I
hadntheardCharliethatmuch,Iwasntthatawareofhisplaying.ButStevewasbusywithGary
Burton,andhehadalotofgigs,andhecouldntbeavailable.(AndIguessIwasluckyIdidntdothat,
becausehestartedplayingelectricbass.)SothenextguythatItriedoutwasCharlie,andIthought
Whoa.Okay.ThisiswhatIneed.WhydidntIthinkofthisbefore?BecauseOrneeobviouslyneeded
thesequalitiesinhisband,hewasntgonnabeplayingonanythingchordal.
Ihaveanecdotalstutosayaboutthequartet,butitwasawildandcrazythingtotrytodo,towritefor
theseguys,whoallhadtheirownIwouldsayPaulwouldbewillingtoplayanything.Imean,for
Godssake,heworkedwithArloGuthrieandMoseAllison.(Mosewascool.)ButPaulwouldplaywith
anybody.Hedplayanything.SoIhadthisArmeniandrummerwhotunedhisdrumslikeArmenia
wouldtunethem,andCharlie,whowasbasicallysooutofitthathewasfoolingwithhisbasscover
whilehewassupposedtobeplayingintime,andDeweywhowasnotcominginforhisentryintothe
melody,andthenIdaskhimwhy,andhedsayWell,Iwasjusthavingaglassofwinebackstage,
man.
AndIremembergatheringthemtogetherandsaying,Look,itsbeengreat,andwevedonethisfora
longtime,butthisisit.Butwhatitwaswasjusttheindividualismcreptintothepointofeverybodys
obsessionstakingthemover.AndIjusthadmoretodo.
IdontbelieveIgottoknowCharlieuntilhewasstraight.Whenhewasstraight,hecameuptome,he
suddenlyhadtotakecareofOldandNewDreams,becauseDonCherrywasintrouble.AndIguesshe
sawmeinacoeeshopinNewYorkorwhereverwewereandhesatdownoppositemeandhesaid,
Imsorryman.Imsosorry.Idontknowhowyoudidit,Keith.NowIknowwhatyouweredealing
with.AndIsaid,Well,maybe!
Butwevegoentoknoweachotherreallywellsincetheninthelastcoupleofyears.Ididaninterview
forthedocumentaryRamblinBoy.Charliesaid,Wouldyoubewillingtotalk?
Yeah,butIdontwanttoplay.
Sohebroughthisbass,putitinthiscontrolroom,andwewentinandtalked.Andafterwewere
nishedtalkingIsaid,Youwannaplay?So,thatwasthebeginningofthinkingaboutthirtythreeor
fouryears,orwhateveritwas,goingbyandwesortofbondedinthosetwotunesorthreetunesina
waythatwedidntknow.Andthenwhenweweredoingmoreplayingafterthat,whichwasjustforme,
formyownpurposes(whetheritcomesoutisanotherquestion),helookedatmeandhesaid,Man,I
didntknowyouhadsuchgoodtime.Isaid,Thatsbecausewehadadrummer.Howwouldyou
knowthat?Isaidthesamethingback:CharliewhydidwethinkweneededPaul?

EI:Ofcourse,PaulplayedsodierentlywithyouthanwithBillEvans.Jazzhistoryhasntreallycaught

EI:Ofcourse,PaulplayedsodierentlywithyouthanwithBillEvans.Jazzhistoryhasntreallycaught
upwithPaulMotianyet.PeopleareveryawareofPaulsbeingapartoftheiconicBillEvanstrio,where
heplayedsomegreatbrushworkandthatsaboutit.Butthereweremoreyearsandmorerecordswith
you,andcertainlyagreatervarietyofmusicandalsoextremelyaggressivedrumming.
KJ:Yeah.ItwaslikeMozartThepianoisnotsupposedtobeupfrontwhenyoureplayingaMozart
concerto.Yourealmosttoosoft.AndwithPaul,Ididnthavetotrytobealmosttoosoft.Ilovedit,
though,becauseIwasalsoadrummer,soIknewwhatPaulwasdoingwassobrilliantlycorrectforthis
situationthatIwasnevergonnasayawordaboutit.IcouldnthaveeverimaginedsayingtoPaul,
Paul,youreplayingtooloud.Herewasaguywhowasprobablywaitingforthis,throughthewhole
brushesthingwithBill.Billdidntwanthimtousesticks.
Andthatswherethewritingbecameofutmostimportance.TherehadtobeawaytohaveDeweynot
playonchanges,tohaveCharlienotplayvampsforever.(Although,whenhewantedtoplayavamp,
therewasnobodythatplaysthembeerthanCharlie.)ButCharliealwayswantedtochallengethetonic,
andchallengethechordhesplaying.Hesnotalwaysgoingtoplaytheroot.Imsorry,Imnotgonna
playthatdamnroot.Idontcarewhatyouthink.Andtheneverynowandthen,hedplaytherootso
beautifullythatyoudjustsay,well,thesearechoiceshesmaking,Imnotgonnascrewwiththis.Thisis
anensemblethatssupposedtobespontaneousandIthinkthewayIvehandledbeingaleaderisoneof
thekeystowhythose,eventheNorwegianquartet,whythosethingsworkedthewaytheydid.Because
therewasnodrill.Iwasntadrillsergeant.
Justtogiveyouanexample:Deweywasalwayslateforthings,foreverandever,Amen.Ihaddriven
intoNewYork,wewererehearsingatPaulsapartment,andDeweywasacoupleofhourslate.You
know,weretwiddlingourthumbsIdontknowwhatsongthisisDeweyshowsup,andhesavery
poorreader.(Charliewasagreatreader.)Deweywasaverypoorreader.Heneededtoplaythisslow
rst.AndIdidnthavetimeforthat.SoIthought,okay.Alright.Paul:justplayasthoughwereplaying
fast,butitsnotapulse.AndCharlie:youknowthepiece,youcantellwhereweare.AndDewey:you
justplaywhatevertempoyoucanreadit.Andthatshowitendedupbeingrecorded,thesameway.I
nevertookDeweyasideandsaid,Nowyouhavetogotowhatmyoriginalconceptwas.Theconcept
hadtobesoexiblewiththatband,thateventhoughIhadmusicforit,Ididnthavetodeterminewhat
wasdonewiththatmusic.
Sometimesamelodyhaschords,thenDeweyssolodoesnt,thenyouforgetwhatthechordsactually
werebythen,thenmaybesomethinghappensafterDewey,andthenImplayingonthechords.Orits
nowaballad.Anditwasgreat.Butitwasveryhard.Very,veryhard.Firstofall,iftheguysareonly
semiconscious,youknowyourestilltryingtogeneratetheenergy.
EI:Well,youshowedserioushumility.Youreayoungvirtuoso.Everyoneknowsit.Youreclearlythe
nextstepinacertainkindofadvancedjazzpianoidiom.Andinsteadofshowcasingyourvirtuosity,you
allowedthemusictojusthappen,surroundedbyapackofwilddogs.WhatIespeciallyloveisthatyou
hadatriowhichismostvirtuosicpianistsideal,tohaveapianotriobutyourestillnotsatisedits
gotenoughraggededges,soyougetDeweyRedmanaswell.
KJ:Thatstrue.Wewalkedpasteachother.IheardOrneewithDewey,inthemud,inafestivalin
Belgium,Ithink.Itwasjustlikewalkinginquicksand,andthenIhadtogotothedressingroomand
playafterthem.AndIcameostageafterIplayed,andthiswaswithacoupleofguysfromthePoconos,
becausePaulandCharliecouldntdothesegigs,theycouldntaordit.Theydidntwanttowaitaround
inEuropeincasewehadwork.SoIcameostageandIhadheardDeweyplayforthersttime,andhe
hadheardmeplayforthersttime.Wewalkedpasteachotherinthedressingroomandwebothsaid,

hadheardmeplayforthersttime.Wewalkedpasteachotherinthedressingroomandwebothsaid,
Heyman,Iwannaworkwithyousometime.Andso,Ijustcalledhimrst.Orsomething.Andthen
thersttimeDeweyplayedwithuswasatSlugsSaloon.
EI:TheressomethingaboutthewayeachphrasegoesnexttoeachotherinDeweysplayingthatonlya
fewpeoplehave.
KJ:AndwhenitsintenseWhenhewason,hewasdenitelyon.Hewasafraidthathewas
incompetenttoplayonchords.Andonenight,wereplayingoneofmypieces,onwhichheneverplays
onthechords.AndallofasuddenImnoticing,wait,hesplayingonthesechords,andnotonlyishe
playingonthem,itslikehesdonethisforhiswholelife.Itstheonlytimeiteverhappened.Andwe
cameothestage,andIsaidtoDewey,Whatthehellwhatwasthat,man!Hesaid,Well,DonByas
diedtoday.IjustfeltDonsspirit.Yeah.Heplayedtheshitoutofthechords.Hejustplayedlikehe
neverhadaproblemwithchordsinhislife.
EI:Idontknowhowitwasreceivedatthetime,butmygenerationofmusiciansregarditasoneofthe
greatestbandsinhistory.
KJ:Ibrokeuptheband,right?Thensomebodysaidtome,Howcouldyoubreakuponeofthemost
importantbandsinthehistoryofmodernjazz?AndIsaid,Whydidntyousaythatbefore?Why
now?ButIguessitwasaseepingprocess.Youhavetohearalotofit,anditstartstodawnonyouwhat
exactlyisgoingon.Idontthinkyoucanchooseatrackandthrowitatsomebodyandsay,Whatdo
youthinkofthat?
EI:Ilovethemusicianswhoaresoprovocativethatsomepeoplewillneverunderstandit.Tothisday
peoplethink,like,whatever,PaulMotiancantswing,ortheythinkthemostoutrageousthingsthat
arenttrueWhoswingsmorethanPaulMotian,anyway?ButtherealthinginthatbandwasPauland
Charlie;playingfree,playingtempo,playingvampsthatsoneofthegreatesthookupsever.
KJ:Anditstartedwithme,becauseIdontknowiftheyevenkneweachotherbeforethat.Butthen
whentheyleft,Isawallthesegroupswhowereputtogetherforagig,orsomething,andtheredbe
CharlieandPaulandDewey.WithPatMetheny,orMickGoodrick,whatever.Well,IguessIstartedan
ideathathadalongerlifethanIhad.
EI:Oh,forsure.PaulandCharlierecordedonmanyofeachothersrecordsandalsowithGeriAllen
lotsofpeople.
Youbringoutthebestincollaborators.AndIwasjusttalkingtoadrummerinAustralia,andIasked
himwhohisfavoritedrummerwas,andhesaidJackDeJohnee.AndIsaid,Well,whatJackrecords
doyoulike?Surprised,heresponded,TheKeithrecords,ofcourse,asiftherewerenootherrecords.
MysuspicionisthatJackandGaryplayjusthowtheywanttoplaywithyou.
KJ:Yeah,yeah.Thatsthewholeidea.Inthebeginning,Isatdownatdinnerwiththemandscaredthe
shitoutofGarybysaying,Well,welldothethingslikeAlltheThingsYouAre.
What?What?What?Whywouldwedothat?
ButIexplainedthatweallhadexperienceasleaders,andIsaid,Youbothknowwhataprivilegeitisto
beasideman.Whatifwewereallsidemen?Inthemusicitself?Wedonthavetorehearse.Idontwant
anyofthat.Sothatshowitsforeverbeenwiththetrio:Weshowup,wedothesoundcheck,wehave
dinnerbackstage,wechat.Sometimesaboutwhatever.Itcouldbeabouttheuniverse,itcouldbe
aboutgaragedoorsnotworking.Andthenwego.Andweplay.ButIhaventbeeninagroupbefore

aboutgaragedoorsnotworking.Andthenwego.Andweplay.ButIhaventbeeninagroupbefore
whereIveknownthepeopleIwasworkingwithandtrustedthemtoshowupatwhatevertheirbestis
atthemoment.Theyknowthatsthejob.Thejobistojustbethere.Notthinkthattheyknowwhats
gonnahappen.
EI:Atthispoint,ofcourse,theStandardsTriohasaveryextensivediscography;itsaddeduptoalotof
tunes.Someofthemyoumusthavelearnedrecently.Howdoyoulearntunesthesedays?
KJ:Oneofusknowsmostofthem,youknow?Itslike,Whatsthebridgetothat?(ThefamousI
dontknowwhatthebridgeisjoke.)
EI:EvensomethinglikeShawNu?Youvealwaysknownthat?
KJ:Thatprobablycameoutofoneofthefakebooks.MaybeIheardtheGerryMulliganversion?Most
oftheballads,forexample,Iknowallthewordsto.Ispentalotofmyearlyyearshearingvocalistssing
almosteverythingthatIplayasaballad.
ButheressomethingIneverrealizedmyentirelifeuntilrecently.Yearsago,IdecidedIwantedtodo
somethingaboutlostlove.ButonlyrecentlydidIfeelthatemotionsographically.Ithought,Igoa
openthepiano.AndIhavetoturnontherecorder.Idontfeellikeit,butImgonnadoit.And,of
course,allthesesongsaresongsIheardsung.IhavetherecordsfromwhichIheardthem.Iknowwhere
theyare.Iknowthevocalists.AndIthought,Imnotevengeingclosetowhatyoucandowhenyou
sing.ItookoneofthetakesthatIthoughtwasreallygood,listenedtoit,andthenimmediately
followeditupwiththevocalistreference.Well,hey,theproblemisvocalistshavetosingwords.So,if
thewordtheisinalineofsinging,theycantsayanythingbutthe.Butifyoureaninstrumentalist,
youcanbringsomethingtoitthatavocalistcannot.AndwhenIwastalkingtooneofmybrothers,he
said,Well,Icangiveyouagoodexample.InSomewhereOvertheRainbow,ifyoureavocalist,how
doyousingbirrrds?Butonpiano,oronanyinstrument,youcanmakethatfullofsomethingother
thanthatphoneticsoundthatsoundsridiculous.
EI:Idothinksomethingthatsdeepenedovertheyearswiththetrioaretheballads.Theyvealways
beenverygood,ofcourse
KJ:Well,weallplayeachothersinstruments.Slightly.Imean,mybassplayingisterrible,myhands
aretoosmall.SoJackandI,whenwedosoundchecks,Jackgoestothepiano,Igotothedrums,and
thatshowwestartthesoundcheck.ThatwayIhearwhatmypianosoundslikeinhismonitor,andhe
knowswhathethinksthepianoslikesohecangearhimselftothesurroundings.Itsamagicaltrio,
becauseweveplayedinroomsthatIamabsolutelysurenootherjazzgroupcouldvemanagedtoplay
in.WeplayedintheMusikvereininVienna,andifyouevertalktoJack,askhimaboutthis.Wecouldnt
useanymonitors,wecouldntuseanysoundsystem.Theplaceissoitslike2,000people,butitsso
alivethatIhadtoplaysoft.Onpurpose.AndJackcouldntusesticks.Andwerejustgoingfromour
usualselvestothisroom,doingasoundcheckandsayingHolyshit!Ok,alright,well,wellgurethis
out.AndsoJack,ofallthethingshedoeswell,themanythingsIcouldsayabouthim,hissensitivityto
thatkindofthingisabsolutehisintegrityisintact.
EI:Itssoimportantthateverybodyinyourgroupplaysfreemusic,aswellasonchanges.
KJ:Yeah,butthesocalledavantgardepuristwouldntcallitfreeplaying.Theydsay,Hey,
momentarilyyoureplayingonthesamescaleforaminute.Or,Youreplayingabeat?No.Ineeditto
goplaces.
EI:Inadditiontothefreeaspect,theresbeenmoreandmorejazzyjazz,too:Morebeboptunesrecently.

EI:Inadditiontothefreeaspect,theresbeenmoreandmorejazzyjazz,too:Morebeboptunesrecently.
KJ:WhenIgotsick,afterIwastryingtorecoverfromChronicFatigueSyndromewhichshouldntbe
whatitscalled,itshouldbecalledDeathWhileYoureAliveeverythinghadtogetlighterforaminute.
AndIcouldntdiginmuch,butlearnedhowmuchtherewasthere,atthatdynamiclevel.Andsomeof
thosethingswerebebopthings,becausetheyhavealightness.Theymightbefast,buttheyre,you
know,alilelighter.
EI:IcouldntbethereforCarnegieHallthisyear,butsomeonetoldmeyouencoredwithCarolina
Shout.Isthattrue?
KJ:Yeah.Itsbeeninmyheadforalongtime.Everynowandthen,youknowhowthathappens,itjust
popsbackin,andIthought,Wait,nowthistimeIwanttoseewhathappens.SoImadesureIknew
howtodothat,becauseIhadaskiaccidentthatpreventsmefromstretchingevenasmuchasIwould
stretch,andIvedevelopedwaysofplayingstridethatareillegalinsomestates.ButGarylovesit.He
saiditgiveshimmoreroom.Again,itsvoiceleading,sometimesitstheupperpartsofthesound,andI
dontneedtostaywiththeboom.Anditsnever,bluhblahbluhblah,blockylikethat.Butyeah,I
didthatasanencore.
EI:Itsagreatpiece.JamesP.,ofcourse.Oneofmyfavorites.Well,Ithinkwereprobablyaboutwhere
you,uh
KJ:WhereIdontknowwhattosaynext?
EI:Isthereanythingelseyouwanttojustmention?Imnotaprofessionalinterviewermyself,so
KJ:Well,Imnotaprofessionalanswerer.Um,actuallyItellpeople,andIalwayswill,thatthisisthe
hardestthingIdo.Ihatereadingotherpeoplesinterviews,becauseIdontwantthemtobeboring,but
theyreneverlledwithmuchatall.AndIgureifImgonnaspendthetime,Ishouldgureouthowto
speakaboutwhateveritis.OnethingIcouldsay:Ifoundmyselfwishingacoupleofdaysagothatthe
entirecatalogueofallthethingsIveeverdonecouldbeseeninanoverview.Becauseitsallcomefrom
thesameplace.Andmostpeopleareunawareoflargeclumpsofit.Imean,peopledontknowaboutthe
organthing.Theydontlikeorgans?
EI:Iwaslisteningtoyourbrassquintetlastnight,actually,andthinking,Thisisreally,reallygood,
andthatpieceiscertainlynotwhatpeoplethinkofwhentheythinkofyou.CharlieHadentoldmehow
muchhelovedthewayyouwroteforstrings,likeonArbourZena.CanIthrowacoupleofothernames
yourway?
KJ:Yeah.
EI:BudPowell.Go.
KJ:Fantasticallyimportant,andgreat.AndIknewwhohewasbeforeIheardhim.Iwrotehisnameon
apieceofpaperonmywaytoablindfoldtest.Iwaswithmywifeatthetime,andIsaid,Imgonna
writealistofthepeopletheyregonnaplayforme.Justforagame,youknow?Sohisnamewasthere,
butIhadntheardhimplayyet.Knowingitwashim.ButwhenIheardit,Iknewithadtobehim.It
couldntbeanotherperson,becauseifthelegendwascorrect,oriftherepwastrue,itcouldntbe
anybodyelse.Yeah,Budwasamazing.Stillis.
EI:TheloniousMonk.
KJ:Theloniousisntamazinginthesameway,butheswhatwouldIsayaboutthat?Idunno.I

KJ:Theloniousisntamazinginthesameway,butheswhatwouldIsayaboutthat?Idunno.I
dunnowhattosayabouthim.Ilikehisstu.IjustdontknowwhatIdsay.Itssidewaystotheow.Its
likehesoveratthesideoftheroad,ashingatyou,sayingHello!Ivegotthisforyou.Itsimportant,
butitsonlyhim.Anditssortofsingular.SoIdontknowwhatIwouldsay.
EI:Fairenough.Thatsbeautiful,whatyoujustsaid.
KJ:Iguess.Imjustatalossforwords.Although,hisquote,accordingtoThomasPynchon,a
TheloniousMonkquote,Ithink,madehimmuchmoreimportantthannotknowingthisquote:Its
alwaysnightorwewouldntneedlight.Anyway,goahead.
EI:PaulBley.
KJ:Paul.Paultookthepianoandmadeitimpossibletodisregardasahorn.Andthatmademefeel
good,becauseIwasfeelingIalwayslikedpianolessgroups,youknow?Ididntactuallylikethe
piano,foralong,longtime.(Immakingupwithitnow.)ButPaulwasinmyapartmentinBoston,
playinghisFootloose!albumbeforeitwasreleased,andwemetintheclub.Animportantforce.Yeah,
important.
EI:ThatsoloonAlltheThingsYouAre,ontheSonnyRollinsrecord.
KJ:Yeah.Well,thatwholerecord,anyway.Thatscrazy.Myyoungestsonaskedme,Canyourecord
allthethingsyouthinkIshouldhear?Oneoftherstthingsthatpoppedintomymindaboutwhathe
hadtohearwasthatalbum.PeteandPaul,andSteveandPetetogether,madeFootloose!extremely
importantforme.SortoflikeAhmadwithcertainkindsofdrugs.
EI:AlsoonthatrecordheplaysasolopianoversionofHowLongHasThisBeenGoingOn?thatwas
lightyearsaheadofwhereeverybodyelsewasthinkingaboutatthatmoment.
KJ:Yeah,onethingImsorryaboutisthathedoesntstillplayonhischeap,brokendownpianoinhis
livingroom.BecausethatsthebestIeverheardhim.AndwhenhesplayingtheBosendorfers,or
whateverheplays,Ithink,No,no,Paul,dontdothat!Itsnotgonnawork.Wheresyoursound?Its
notinthatpiano.So,tryanothername.
EI:AndrewHill.
KJ:GlassBeadGame.Idunno.Somethinglikethat.
EI:CecilTaylor.
KJ:Again,hebroughtthepianointotherealmofotherinstrumentsthatwereabletoplayfree.Imean,
youcantreallyplayfreeonpiano,Imsorry.Itsaleversystem.ButCecildideverythinghecould.And
itwasanenergything.
EI:HankJones.
KJ:Tasty.Beyondjusttasty.No,itsstimulating.Tastyandstimulating.
EI:ErrollGarner.
KJ:IusedtodoareallygoodimitationofErrollthatJackalwayscrackedupabout,becauseheknewI
gotitright.Hesmoreimportantthanmostpeoplegivehimcreditfor.Muchmoreimportant.
EI:Also,hiscrazyintroductions.Thoselongfantasies.

EI:Also,hiscrazyintroductions.Thoselongfantasies.
KJ:Justtheabilitytoplaythewayheplayedandhavethephysiquehehad:eventhat,byitself.The
octavething.Theclusters.
EI:Itsquitethick,howmanynoteshesmovingaround.ArtTatum?
KJ:Toomanynotes.
EI:Really?Toomanynotes?
KJ:Yeah.Toomanynotestoooften.
EI:Greattime,though.
KJ:Goodtime,yeah.Butthatsmyresponse.
EI:LennieTristano.
KJ:Very,veryimportant.Asathinker;thewayhecouldthinkonhisfeet.Very,veryimportant.Very
important.
EI:Anybodyelse?
KJ:JohnLewisyoudidntmention.
EI:Oh,tellmeaboutJohnLewis.
KJ:Moreimportantthanmostpeoplethink.Asamaeroffact,Iwouldsayifyouregonnatakea
bunchofthenottheBudPowellsoftheworld,notMonks,nottheveryvisiblepeople,buttheless
visible,Johnisoneofthemostimportant.Johnstastewassoimpeccableattimesthathisimprovising
touchedtherealmofwrienmusic.Itwasjustsosimplebuttruetothesubjectmaer.Someofhissolos
arelilegemsofacertainkindofminimalism.Andtalkingabouttouch,therescertainlysomething
there.
EI:Ijustrecentlywaslisteningto,itsnotthatgoodarecord,fromtheearly70s,anallstardatewith
DizzyGillespieandSonnyStiandMaxRoach.AndtheyplayAlltheThingsYouAre,andtheJohn
Lewispianosoloisthebestthingontherecord.Ithinkitsonechorus,twoatmost.
KJ:Yeah,someoftheearlythingswithMilesaregreat.IndmyselfoccasionallylisteningtoTheGolden
Striker,justsoIcanhearhowtheygetintothebeat.GarylookedatmeonceafterweplayedaPete
LaRocablues,OneforMajid.Andthatwasthelastthingintheset,andwewentbackstage,Gary
lookedatme,madethesignofthecross,backedaway,andsaidGetawayfromme!
AndIsaid,Whatshappening?
Hesaid,IthoughtIwasgonnaswingashardasIdeverswungbeforewhenIplayedwithMiles.This
isnotfair.Thishasblownthewholetheory.Imgoingtomyroom.Sohewenttohisroom,andlater
therewasareviewinthepaperandnobodymentionedswinging,andGarysaid,Youknow,noone
mentionsswinginganymore.Whenitshappeninglikethat.Theydidntmentionit?Tellmeifitsonthe
tape.
AndIsaid,Gary,thatsadangerousthingtoexpectfromaboardmix,becauseifthemixiswrong,

AndIsaid,Gary,thatsadangerousthingtoexpectfromaboardmix,becauseifthemixiswrong,
theyrenotgonnahearwhatweheard.Andyouwonteither,ifyouhearthetape.AndIcalledhimand
said,Gary,Imsorry,itsnotonthetape.Welljusthavetolivewithourexperience.But,uh,thatsthe
storyofjazz.Wheredothosenotesgo?Orcomefrom?Whatever.Toolate.So,itsgoodthatwehave
recordings.
EI:AndTheGoldenStriker,youweresayingtheygetintotheswing?
KJ:Becauseitsnotthequartet,andbecauseitsthreeofthefourofthemitsjustthewayheplayshis
liledance.Itsthislile,prancingwayhehadaboutit,howhedidthis.WeplayDjangooccasionally
withthetrio.AndthenwhenweplayPoinciana,ImthinkingofAhmad.WhenweplayDjangoIm
thinkingofJohn.AndJackwilllookoverandsmilewhenwevehitthatlilerealmwhereitseitheran
ideaJohnmighthaveplayedoritsthefeelthatJohnliked,becauseyoucantellwhathelikesbyhow
wellhesplaying.SamethingwithPoinciana,ifIgettothisthing,especiallyintheuppertrebleofthe
piano,wheretheresalilerepeatedphrase,anditsdonewithimpeccableconcernforthepropulsionof
thatlilephraseintothebeat,Jackwilllookoverandsmile.
Asasidebartothis,thentherearetimeswhenwereplayingthingslikeGodBlesstheChildandhe
looksoveratmebecauseheknowsthathesjustfoundthegroove.JackandIhavethisthingabout
LevonHelmsplayinginTheBandandwheneverthatshappening,webothknowit.
EI:Anotherofyourinnovationswaspuingrockmusicintojazzinamoresincerewaythanhadbeen
donebefore.
KJ:LastDecember,IfoundmyselfinLondon,IdontthinkIdplayedtherefor18years.AndIhad
neverhadagoodexperiencebeinginLondon;Ihadsomethingclosetoanervousbreakdownaswe
drovein.BecausewereonChristmastime,thereweretheseornamenteddecorationseverywhereI
said,Idontwannaseethisshit.Getthistaxitothehotel!AndIgottomyroom,pulledthecurtains.
ThenIwentwalkingintherain,havingjustgonethroughamajorloss
Somehow,miraculously,twodayslaterwhenIdidtheconcert,Imetpersonafterpersonwhojusthad
therightvibrations.Thelimodriver,thepersondoingthecatering,somepeoplebackstage,the
promoter.Andthen,nallyImoutthere,realizingIhaventdonethisforalongtime,andImin
London,andIstart.Eventually,becauseoftherichnessofthebassofthisinstrument,andsomeother
elementsIcouldntquiteplace,italmostturnedinto,attheveryend,itslikeachurchlikeamajor
notachurchservice,butImeantheresathechurchinessthatOrneemightvemeant.
CombinedwiththerockmusicthatseemstohavesprungfromLondoninagreatway.
IrealizedjustbeforeIgottothatpartoftheconcert,thatthisispartofwhatIdo:Ichannelthesituation
insomeways,andIneverknowwhattheresultsgonnabe.Sotherewerethesevampsthatstarted,and
thenotherthingshappenedinbetween,andthenthislastpiecewhichIveneverplayedanythinglike
it.Itwasalmostimpossibletoplay.BecauseIhadtoplayclustersof,youknow,triadicthings,andby
thenIwaslikewipedout,basically.IwasplayinglouderthanIbangingonthepianolike,asthougha
bandweregoingtocomein,buttherewasnoband.AndIhadtobetheband.Ihadtoactuallybethe
nextthingthathappened,eventhoughIwaslikepreparingsomethingtohappen.Wherewasthe
drummer?Itwasanamazingexperience.Itwassocathartic.Youknow,IwalkedostageandIwasin
tears.Ididanencore,Iwalkedostage,Iwasintearsagain.AndthatswhatIwasgonnasay:therewas
somethingintheairinLondon.IneverwouldsaythatrockwasplayingaroleinsomethingunlessIhad
reasonto.Butitdidthen.Thateveningitdid.SothatstheveryendofthetwoCDs.Theverylastthing
isthiscrazyGMajorthingthatIhitmanywrongnotesinanditsoundslikeitdoesntmakeabitof

isthiscrazyGMajorthingthatIhitmanywrongnotesinanditsoundslikeitdoesntmakeabitof
dierencebecausethisislikesoemotionallycharged.Itsnotgoinghappenlikethatagain.AsIwas
sayingaminuteago,Imgladsometimesthatthingsarerecorded.
EI:Yeah,forsure.
KJ:ButifyourenotthereCarnegieHallthislasttimewassomething,butifyouwerentthere,youll
neverknowwhatitwas.Itwaslikeasociologicaleventandamusicaleventcombined.Allincredibly
positive!IwashavinganinterplaywiththeaudiencethatIveneverseenbefore.
EI:Howso?
KJ:Idunno.Icantexplainit.Imean,weweretalkingtoeachotherEverybodywassoup,youknow
itwaslike,Wehavetomakeasound.Sotheyweremakingthesesounds.Andalsotheyweremaking
thesesoundswhentheywereapplaudingthattheywerelikechoralmusic.FromsomefutureKubrick
lmwhichwonthappen.Theyweredoingtheseamazingthingsthatwerentapplause.Andthey
werentgrunts,buttheywereeverything.Likeshrieking,moaning.
EI:Wow.
KJ:AndthenIwould,like,maybecomeout,andtheycouldntcalmdown,andsomebodywouldsay
something.AndIdsay,What?AndIdturn,sitfacingtheaudience,Idsay,Okay,letshearit.What
arewealltalkingabout?Sosomebodyhadaskedforsomething,andIsaid,No,Icantdothatright
now.Somebodysaid,Playsomethinglong.AndIstartedtoplaytheseconcerti.LiketheGrieg,Dah,
dadadah,dadadah,andthensaid,No,no,no,thatstoolong.Soitwaslikealmostacomedy
routinethattheycreated.AndthensomeoneaskedforRachmaninos2nd,andIsaid,Thatsagood
idea,butIusuallyhavetoplaythe1strst.Soitwasliketheylosttheirinhibitions,andIdidtoo,and
youcanthearthatonthetape.ButthatswhatIlikeaudiencestodo.