Dresser Couplings

Dresser Coupling
KOO KEUN
HOE
Member
Registered:
04/24/03
Posts: 1
Loc: south KOREA
How can I modeing 'Dresser Coupling' in expansion joint modeler.

_________________________
Mr Koo Keun Hoe,
Research Engineer
Samsung Heavy Industries
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#1013 - 04/28/03 03:20 PM
Dave Diehl
Member
Registered:
12/14/99
Posts: 1566
Loc: Houston, TX,
USA
Re: Dresser Coupling
Koo Keun Hoe,

I cannot be specific in modeling these couplings as I have no direct
knowledge of them. I believe they serve as connectors between
sections of pipe or pipe and other components such as pump nozzles.
These connectors have some play and perhaps some "nonrigid"
stiffness.
Of course, the important considerations in CAESAR II center on
stiffness, displacement and load. You can model these terms for your
coupling through a restraint with stiffness and gaps. For example, to
model a coupling between two pipes run a pipe from 10 to 20 and a
second pipe from 21 to 30. Model the coupling as a set of six restraints
at node 20 with a CNODE of 21. Specify a stiffness if a gasket with a
given stiffness is present and add a gap if there is some play in the
joint.
There is more information on this approach in a newsletter article on
Victaulic couplings in the June 1998 issue. You can find this on our
website under the Support heading.
Dave
_________________________
Dave Diehl
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#21759 - 10/23/08 02:38 AM
STC
Member
Registered:
02/04/07
Posts: 51
Loc: Taegu
[Re: Dave Diehl]
I am going to model Victaulic flexible coupling (DN350)on the pump

suction line. The pipe runs on the X axis. The typical way for modelling
seems to restrain all six degree of X,Y,Z,Rx,Ry and Rz with gaps
specified from the vendor catalogue using CNode. However, I read the
article on the Coade News letter prepared by David Diehl, and it
mentioned only X, Ry and RZ have to be restrained with gaps(not
mentioned for other directions).
Please advise which way is correct.
Regards
Sok
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#21801 - 10/24/08 09:38 AM
Dave Diehl
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Posts: 1566
Loc: Houston, TX,
USA
[Re: STC]
The focus was on those three DOFs (X, RY, RZ).

I believe the other two translation DOFs had rigid restraints with
CNodes as there are no gaps and the RX was ignored - allowing the
joint to spin. Or maybe also rigid restraint to assume math stability but
then check the torque magnitude.
Certainly do not let them free.
_________________________
Dave Diehl
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#21807 - 10/24/08 10:19 AM
[Re: STC]
Richard Yee
STC,
Member
The Dresser coupling and the Victaulic flexible coupling are not alike.
The Dresser coupling would clamp on to plain pipe, while the Victaulic
flexible coupling works within the grooved pipe limits. The Victaulic style
77 flexible coupling might be close to the Dresser coupling within small
displacement limits. The Victaulic style W155 expansion joint with its
multiple sections would be an order of magnitude more flexible, more
like a hose.
Registered:
12/16/99
Posts: 166
Loc: Chesterfield,
MO 63017
If you have a anchor support on piping side close to the Victaulic

coupling, then the loads on the pump suction will be negligible. The
anchor support would take the pressure thrust plus piping loads, and
the Victaulic coupling would allow small vertical + lateral + rotational
movements between the anchor and the pump suction connection
displacements.
_________________________
R Yee
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#21831 - 10/27/08 02:49 AM
[Re: Richard Yee]
STC
Thanks for your reply Dave and Richard.
Registered:
02/04/07
Posts: 51
Loc: Taegu
I can't add an anchor or line stop as you suggested, as the pipe runs
straight into a tank. The system pressure is very low (10kpa for
operating), so the pressure thrust will not cause a big problem for the
pump and tank nozzles.
Member
Do we need to consider pressure thrust for the Victaulic style 77 flexible

coupling as we do for simple bellows? I remember Dave has mentioned
in the Coade News letter that this can be evaluated manually. What is
the best way to include this in Caesar if we have to consider?
Can we assume the vertical and lateral movements the same as an
axial movement? The vendor table only shows the axial movement.
Pump will cause vibration. Which is better application between the
flexible coupling and simple bellows for pump line from the vibration
point of view?
Regards
Sok
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#21844 - 10/27/08 10:03 AM
Dave Diehl
[Re: STC]
You can include the pressure thrust by adding F1 at the upstream and
downstream surfaces that you would see if you stood inside your
coupling. Be sure to include this F1 in your load sets.
Member
Registered:
12/14/99
Posts: 1566
Loc: Houston, TX,
USA
I would not assume that the transverse gap is the same as the axial
gap.
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Dave Diehl
Modelling DRESSER Couplings

rkuhn
Hi,
Member
Registered:
11/27/02
Posts: 9
Loc: Santiago Chile
I must introduce a Dresser coupling into a pipe stress analysis.

Is there a recommendation in order to do a correct model of the
coupling in Caesar II?
Regards,
R. Khn
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R. Khn
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#2187 - 10/22/04 01:30 PM
Sun Wee
Member
Registered:
12/20/99
Posts: 75
Loc:
Calgary,Canada
Re: Modelling DRESSER Couplings
It shouldn't be different to slip joint, Victaulic coupling, or simple

expansion joint. Only difference is the max. allowable lateral
deflection(or angle). Generally Dresser Coupling allows 4 deg., but it
depends on types.
Please give me your email address, then I will send sample model.
_________________________
Sun Wee
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#2188 - 10/26/04 12:11 PM
rkuhn
Re: Modelling DRESSER Couplings
Thanks Sun Wee,
Member
Registered:
11/27/02
Posts: 9
Loc: Santiago Chile
My email is: rkuhn@cadeidepe.cl

Regards
_________________________
R. Khn
How to model a Joint DRESSER , type 38?

naoliveira
Dear all,
Member
Registered:
01/27/09
Posts: 18
Loc: RJ, Brazil
Im a new user of Caesar II. I need to model a DRESSER Joint (its not
a comum expansion joint)and I hope you can help me.
I found at CaesarII's tutorial a explain about "Slip Joint" (similar to
DRESSER JOINT). I have dificult to define the stiffness K1.
Another question is how to permit the angular moviment?
Best regards.
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#24092 - 01/27/09 09:05 AM
naoliveira]
Loren Brown
Member
Registered:
10/18/01
Posts: 281
Loc: Houston, TX
Re: How to model a Joint DRESSER , type 38?
[Re:
Maybe you can create a few different models (using File->Save As and
change the name) with different values of K1 so that you envelope it.
That way you can determine how critical selecting the correct value of
K1 is on your results throughout the model. If it becomes important you
will have to contact the manufacturer and hope they can give you some
guidance.
If you modeled this as a zero-length expansion joint then use a small
value for bending stiffness. Then input a Z2 restraint with K1 set to
some large value and K2 set very small (it must be greater or equal to
1.0), with Fy being your break-away torque (ft-lb, not lb). Then input
the angular restraint (Rx, Ry, or Rz as appropriate) with a gap equal to
that allowed by the coupling.
_________________________
Loren Brown
Director of Technical Support
CADWorx & Analysis Solutions
Intergraph Process, Power, & Marine
12777 Jones Road, Ste. 480, Houston, TX 77070 USA
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#24148 - 01/28/09 12:08 PM
naoliveira]
Jouko
Member
Registered:
01/11/04
Posts: 360
[Re:
I looked into this coupling. There are similarities between this and
Viking Johnson coupling. I have a technical paper I have writen on VJ
coupling modelling. I try to attach it to this message. If it doesn't work
please send me your e mail.
Attachments
572-ModellingofVikingJohnsonCouplingsinCAESARII.pdf
(1055 downloads)
_________________________
Regards,
Jouko
jouko@jat.co.za
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#24417 - 02/05/09 09:30 AM
Jouko]
[Re:
naoliveira
Member
Registered:
01/27/09
Posts: 18
Loc: RJ, Brazil
Thank you!
I finaly modeled joint type dresser. The VJ coupling are very similar.
About the techinical paper, I have a doubt. What is the influence of the
legth on the results? I did some tests with differents legths (50mm,
100, 300mm) and the results are almost the same.
Please, do you can imagine why the author suggested 10mm?
Regards,
NaOliveira
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#24426 - 02/05/09 10:51 AM
naoliveira]
Jouko
[Re:
I wrote the paper.
Member
Registered:
01/11/04
Posts: 360
Originally the length was 10 mm because the rubber ring is about that
length. The development was quite long. I had really horrible results in
some calculation cases. Plant owner's specialist originally insisted
defined length. I used the one that gave the best result. I made several
units and for the last 2 I used zero length.
_________________________
Regards,
Jouko
jouko@jat.co.za
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#24427 - 02/05/09 11:15 AM
Jouko]
naoliveira
Member
Registered:
01/27/09
Posts: 18
Loc: RJ, Brazil
[Re:
Sorry! I forgot that you wrote the paper!

In my case, the axial moviment is around 10mm / 20mm. I cannot
consider a zero-legth with high axial stiffness.
I used high translational stiffness and high torsional stiffness. The axial
and bending stiffness I used like indicated in the paper.
I did some tests and it seems to be ok. I were afraid of the legth, but
maybe its right.
Do you have more papers in reference to modeling with CaeserII?
Thank you very much!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Best regards,
Naoliveira
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#24471 - 02/06/09 09:56 AM
naoliveira]
Jouko
Member
[Re:
I think you may be destroying the coupling. Make sure that you read
the suppliers documentation. Viking and Johnson coupling has a rubber
seal. Maximum axial movement allowed is the deformation of the
Registered:
01/11/04
Posts: 360
rubber. If the seal slips on the pipe it is destroyed. If this dresser type is
a slip joint then the situation is different. In both cases you need to
take care of the pressure thrust. You cannot rely on the friction between
the seal and pipe. Also you need anchors quite often to make sure the
couplings do not slip out. VJ has good literature. I have not studied
DRESSER.
Each coupling type has its own limitations and good points. Often they
are misused. Read the documentation!
You can look on my site www.jat.co.za. There is some software to use if
you use stress ISO.
_________________________
Regards,
Jouko
jouko@jat.co.za
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#58422 - 04/01/14 02:28 PM
naoliveira]
[Re:
NelsonAstete naoliveira
Please can you share modeled dresser joint CAESAR II ?
Member
Registered:
01/23/11
Posts: 14
Loc: Lima, Peru
how to model dress coupling

pu yan
Member
Hi, Mister,
I want to know how to model dress couping (38 style).Can you please
send me a Caesar II file?
Registered:
07/22/08
Posts: 2
Loc: beijing China
My email adress is ypu@pipesys.com. Thanks for your help. Could you

give me a quick reply for this is urgent?
Regard,
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#19451 - 07/22/08 09:10 PM
Richard Ay
Member
Registered:
12/13/99
Posts: 5309
Loc: Houston,
Texas, USA
Re: how to model dress coupling
[Re: pu yan]
Use the [Search] function (above the calendar to the right) and search
for "Dresser Coupling".
_________________________
Regards,
Richard Ay
Intergraph CAS
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#19454 - 07/22/08 10:30 PM
pu yan
Member
Registered:
07/22/08
Posts: 2
Loc: beijing China
[Re: Richard Ay]
yes ,i just searched for the dresser couping. But there is no reference
but some email address. Can you send me a CAESAR II model?
Thanks for your concern.
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#19465 - 07/23/08 07:42 AM
Richard Ay
Member
Registered:
12/13/99
Posts: 5309
Loc: Houston,
Texas, USA
[Re: pu yan]
I don't have a CAESAR II model with a Dresser Coupling. These posts

discuss this topic:
http://www.coade.com/ubbthreads/ubbthrea...h=true#Post1013
http://www.coade.com/ubbthreads/ubbthrea...=true#Post16441
I'll ask around to see if anyone here has a sample model.
_________________________
Regards,
Richard Ay
Intergraph CAS
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#19475 - 07/23/08 10:44 AM
[Re: Richard Ay]
Richard Ay
Ok, here is a small sample model.
Member
Also check out this article in one of the newsletters:

http://www.coade.com/newsletters/jun99.pdf
Registered:
12/13/99
Posts: 5309
Loc: Houston,
Texas, USA
Attachments
370-COUPLING_SAMPLE.C2
(359 downloads)
_________________________
Regards,
Richard Ay
Intergraph CAS
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#58435 - 04/02/14 04:47 PM
[Re: Richard Ay]
NelsonAstete Richard, your model only has stiffness for rotational but it doesnt have
thrust loads or expansion joint, your model is enough accurate reach
Member
reliable results?
Registered:
01/23/11
Posts: 14
Loc: Lima, Peru
Pressure Thrust on Victaulic Coupling?
Miyamoto
Hi all,
Member
Registered:
09/13/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Brazil
We know that a straight pipeline anchored at both sides (which

have a tank at one side and a pump at another side) with a
untied bellow, the thrust force goes to pump foundation due
pipeline is "disconnected" and the pump is in charge of absorb
the reaction force.
In a Victaulic Coupling the problem is the same? I think that
inside pipe the pressure is contained by pipewall and victaulic
wall too. So, the P*A exists, but no reaction force goes to the
pump once the pressure thrust is enclosured at system. I read
COADE's News Jun98 and learn how to model Victaulic in CAESAR
II. A paragraph shows how to input the pressure thrust in the
model. But, this force may be a reaction force on pump nozzle or
can be neglected?
Is this right? Or Victaulic works like a expansion joint/untied
bellow?
Thanks in advance,
Miyamoto
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#49051 - 05/31/12 02:56 AM

Miyamoto]
MoverZ
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Re: Pressure Thrust on Victaulic Coupling? [Re:
Victaulic joints do resist axial pressure thrust.
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#49054 - 05/31/12 07:07 AM

Miyamoto]
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Miyamoto
MoverZ,
Member
But the pressure thrust goes to pump foundation? We need

consider loads on nozzle as specified in EJMA (difference in
victaulic mean diameter and inner pipe diameter? Or can we
consider as a straight pipeline and no loads on pump foundation?
Registered:
09/13/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Brazil
Regards,
Miyamoto
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#49056 - 05/31/12 07:31 AM

Miyamoto]
MoverZ
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Member
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Loc: Brazil
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Fine, but what's the reaction of the pump? I believe the P*A inside
pipe don't will cause many problems once system is closed and
no thrust reaction goes to pump. Is this right? Can I consider a
flexibility axially in pipe (due gap for thermal displacements) but
no reaction forces on pump foundation (as a straight pipeline)?
Reply Quote
#49063 - 05/31/12 08:47 AM

Miyamoto]
MoverZ
Member
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Look carefully at a section drawing of a victaulic joint. There is a

captive neoprene seal which fits in a groove in both pipe ends.
Provided that the design pressure is not exceeded, the joint
needs no axial restraint such as tie-bars. You should not consider
it as an expansion joint even though it does allow a very small
amoumt of flexibility. EJMA methods do not apply.
#49060 - 05/31/12 07:49 AM

Miyamoto]
Miyamoto
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You cannot have it both ways. Either you consider the Victaulic
joint to be rigid axially (no PxA) or consider it to have some
flexibility axially, then (PxA) will act on your pump foundation. I
would say it's rigid axially, thus there will be no (PxA) reaction
externally.
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#49065 - 05/31/12 09:26 AM
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Miyamoto]
Miyamoto
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But, if victaulic works between 2 anchors, when pipe have

thermal displacements, victaulic will have gaps. So, considering
what you said, the system have some flexibility axially (gap),
then PxA will act on pump foundation.
Thanks.
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#49066 - 05/31/12 10:15 AM

Miyamoto]
MoverZ
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I give up. Victaulics do not create end thrust.

Get onto the manufacturers.
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#49073 - 05/31/12 12:13 PM

Miyamoto]
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Miyamoto
MoverZ,
Member
Sorry. I forgot to mention. I'm talking about Victaulic Flex

Coupling. Probably you are refering to Rigid Couplings, am I right?
Registered:
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Posts: 78
Loc: Brazil
I agree with your explanations if you were refering to

rigid couplings. But, In this case, with a rigid system, loads from
thermal displacement will act on anchors.
Regards,
Miyamoto
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#49074 - 05/31/12 12:14 PM

Miyamoto]
Miyamoto
MoverZ,
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Sorry. I forgot to mention. I'm talking about Victaulic Flex

Coupling. Probably you are refering to Rigid Couplings, am I right?
I agree with your explanations if you were refering to
rigid couplings. But, In this case, with a rigid system, loads from
thermal displacement will act on anchors.
Regards,
Miyamoto
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#49133 - 06/05/12 06:50 AM

Miyamoto]
Ohliger
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The system pressure p gives axial loads on both end (bends)

F*A !
This load will be absorbed from the axial stress in the pipe.
In the case with a untied bellow the pipe dont absoberd this
load an the load go in the bends or axial restraints.
Registered:
12/16/99
Posts: 246
Loc:
Is a untied bellow left from a axial restraint then the load
Mannheim,Germ F1 = p * A1 got direct in the axial restraint.
any
A1 = (Da2-Di2)*pi/4.
Da = inside diameter bellow
Di = Inside diameter pipe
And a load Fi = p* Di*Di*pi/4 go direct in the ellbows.
Pipe Supports in Flexible Victaulic Coupling - URGENT!!!
vipul
Member
Registered:
08/24/09
Posts: 5
Loc: India
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Hi All
This is me first post in this forum.
We have 250NB size of Fire Fighting Pipe line.
The Material of Pipe is GI and we have used Flexible
Victaulic Couplings for the complete system. Now we have to do
supporting of this system.
Can anyone help me what factors one needs to consider while
doing supporting of this system.
This is urgent as we have problem at site in supports!!!
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#29444 - 08/24/09 06:26 AM
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Re: Pipe Supports in Flexible Victaulic Coupling -
URGENT!!! [Re: vipul]
kumar73
Hi Vupul,
Member
Registered:
05/23/05
Posts: 54
Loc: India
Please find attached Caesar model for Victaulic couplings , some

related information.
Regards,
kumar
Attachments
803-VICTAULIC.zip
(541 downloads)
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KUMAR
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#29447 - 08/24/09 06:41 AM
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kumar73
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Support span for the victaulic couplings.
Posts: 54
Loc: India
Attachments
804-Query-short-spools-support.pdf
(5862 downloads)
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KUMAR
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#29450 - 08/24/09 07:24 AM
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URGENT!!! [Re: kumar73]
vipul
Member
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08/24/09
Posts: 5
Loc: India
Hi
Thanks for the reply
Does one needs to consider the effect of expansion in pipe due
increase in pipe pressure (in this case it is around 20bar). How to
take care of this?
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#29451 - 08/24/09 07:41 AM
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kumar73
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pressure due to extension for the couplings to be considered.

pressure makes very important role in victaulic couplings.
If u have any quires please let me know
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#29452 - 08/24/09 08:05 AM
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vipul
Hi
Member
Registered:
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Posts: 5
Loc: India
I have to go to site to rectify the support system. Support design

has been done considering the rigid couplings and now there is
leakage of water during hydrotest.
The pipe is running in rectangular path inside the building
(50mx30m)
My solution and understanding so far is like this 1. I will provide rest+guide at both the ends of all
the couplings to rigidify the system.
2. After providing this kind of supports if pipe expands due to
pressure then the solution which i considered was to provide
anchor at every change of direction but then the load coming is

very high (120KN) and this pipe is GI so I cannot do any welding
on pipe and now I am stuck what to do??
- Vipul
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#29454 - 08/24/09 09:27 AM
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kumar73
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the Victaulic Couplings (VCs) are not as strong as the pipe.

Have you checked that the bending moments on the VC's are
within the allowable ?
Send me the Caesar Model.
kumar
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#29456 - 08/24/09 10:10 AM
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vipul
Member
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We are not doing any calculation for this system as the system is
cold (Design Temp - 30C / Op Temp - 20C).
Does Caesar calculate axial movement due to pressure thrust for
this type of coupling.
How to model this coupling in Caesar?
If the pipe is erected with the maximum gap the coupling allows
then will there be any axial movement??
- Vipul
Edited by vipul (08/24/09 10:13 AM)
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#29473 - 08/25/09 01:42 AM
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kumar73
Please refer my attachment ( WORD FILE ) and caesar model.
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In felxible victaulic couplings max gap only : 3.2mm

Style 77S
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#29476 - 08/25/09 02:51 AM
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vipul
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Do we need to do calculation for this system (despite being

cold)??
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#39811 - 12/30/10 08:57 AM
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Raam____
Dear Sir/Friends,
Member
It is really interesting to learn about Vic. Coupling and its real

world application. I read your post and view the Victaulic coupling
model, it is nice. I have couple of doubts, kindly clarify me.
Registered:
05/01/10
Posts: 33
Loc: .....
1. In the word file that you have attached, the 4th point, you
stated to locate an anchor (assumed a straight line pipe) at one
end and in other end to allow the Vic. Couplings move freely. Do I
understand it correct? If yes, the anchor loads at the one end
would be more which requires huge foundation, instead the
anchor is shifted to center then both sides Vic.Couplings are
provided to reduce the thermal expansion which may reduce the
anchor load as well as in foundation size and thermal expansion
too.
a. Please correct me if my understanding is wrong?
b. For an L shaped line which is the best place to locate the
anchor and Vic. Coup. say one end is free and other end is
connected to a main line inside the plant.
2. Kindly explain me the 5th point in detail. The attached page
048 is missing it is to calculate the yield moment. Also I dont get
the point how Vic. Coupling becomes flexible if the applied

bending moment exceeds a certain value.
3. I have calculated the pressure thrust force, in CAESAR II how to
apply this. I applied the pressure thrust force as shown in fig. 3
page 18 June, 1998. Is it correct? Also for STYLE 77 from 06.04
Vic. Catalogue page No. 1 states that the coupling is offered for
pressures up to 1000 psi. Is this pressure limit for circumferential
direction? But inside the table the Max. Work Pressure limit is low
compared to this value.
4. Finally, torsion moment, how to calculate this? I observed in
CAESAR II model you had given stiffness (RZ-Pipe axis) torsion
moment. Page 047 is missing from your word file.
Thanks in advance.
Victaulic Coupling Modeling
Hossam
Gharib
Member
Registered:
09/07/05
Posts: 2
Loc: Cairo, Egypt
I need know how to model victaulic couplings on Caesar II. More

specifically, i need to model Vic Ring couplings. I read an article
in coade newsletter (June 1998) about this topic, but i was
wondering if someone has a more detailed explanation for the
modeling of the coupling.
_________________________
Hossam Gharib
Mechanical Design Engineer
Dar Al Handasah
Cairo Office
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#3681 - 09/07/05 02:14 PM
Sun Wee
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Re: Victaulic Coupling Modeling
Hi,
Member
Registered:
12/20/99
Posts: 75
Loc:
Calgary,Canada
I think the newsletter from Coade is enough for the modeling

philosophy. You can model it as CNode or expansion bellows. My
practice is to use CNode method as below;
axial(X) : rigid or with gap
lateral(Y,Z) : rigid without gap
bending(RY,RZ) : flexible(assumed stiffness is 500 N/mm) or with
gap
torsional(RX) : rigid or flexible(assumed stiffness is 50,000 Nm/deg)
-----------------------------------------------Node 10 CNode 11
Type X Gap 6
Stif Mu
Node 10 CNode 11
Type Y Gap
Stif Mu
Node 10 CNode 11
Type Z Gap
Stif Mu
Node 10 CNode 11
Type RX Gap
Stif Mu
Node 10 CNode 11
Type RY Gap
Stif 500 Mu
Node 10 CNode 11
Type RZ Gap
Stif 500 Mu
---------------------------------------------------The axial gap and stiffness, torsional stiffens are subject to your
system. The use of gap or flexibility for bending is subject to your
preference. However, you have to check the combined ratio for
"allowable gap vs actual gap".
I had discussed the stiffness of gasket with Victaulic Head
Office(PA) and they explained it is hard to get the exact number.
However, the arbitrary number for gasket stiffness is not a big
deal in Victaulic Coupling system piping.
The more important things are;
1) arrange the coupling to avoid the pressure thrust.
2) select the proper coupling type with proper groove, ring, and
gasket for process conditions
3) use proper gaps with proper installation procedure.
If you need any more help, please email at
sunryang.wee@snclavalin.com
_________________________
Sun Wee
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#3682 - 09/08/05 08:24 AM
Hossam
Gharib
Member
Registered:
09/07/05
Posts: 2
Loc: Cairo, Egypt
Dear Sun,
Thanks for your reply, it was very useful.
_________________________
Hossam Gharib
Mechanical Design Engineer
Dar Al Handasah
Cairo Office
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#3683 - 09/08/05 10:52 AM
Richard
Yee
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12/16/99
Posts: 166
Loc: Chesterfield,
MO 63017
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Hossam,
The grooved coupling systems allow a certain amount of
flexibility due to the gaps between the pipe groove and the
coupling. If the flexibility is needed, then go ahead and design to
use the movements allowed at the couplings.
Victaulic also has grooved couplings that grip the pipe such that
the coupling is 'Rigid' for bending and torsion. The rigid
style couplings clamp to the bottom of the groove on the pipe.
Their fire resistant gasket is available only with the rigid coupling.
One Victualic sales representative reported that piping
contractors and pipefitters preferred the Rigid style coupling
since the pipe stayed in position while being assembled. The
gaps in the 'flexible' couplings alllows the pipe to sag and droop,
requiring more temporary and permanent supports during
installation.
Be sure to specify whether the flexible type or the rigid
type couplings are to be used. It would be better to use one type
for the entire project if possible - or at least the same type of rigid
or flexible coupling within any single size of piping. If
flexible couplings are needed on large diameter piping, but
rigid couplings can be used on smaller diameter piping, then
flexible and rigid couplings can be separated by sizes.
_________________________
R Yee
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#3684 - 01/12/06 11:26 AM
Cy.
SAINTIGNY
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Hi,
I work as piping stress engineer.
Member
Registered:
01/04/06
Posts: 6
Loc: France
I would like to know if the arrangement below ensures that there

is no pressure thrust, as M. WEE request on his point 1) "arrange
the coupling to avoid the pressure thrust."
Trying to model this kind of arrangement with expansion bellows
and limits, I get forces (in the anchor to anchor direction) due to
EXP case which I can't figure out if they "really" exist:
o = Vitaulic flexible 77 (bellow with limits, axial and angular)

- or | = pipe
X = anchor
. = air
-o---------o|................|
o................o
|................|
|................|
o................o
|................|
X...............X
Is this an arrangement which avoids thrust effect on the anchors?
_________________________
Cy. SAINTIGNY
Eng.
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#3685 - 01/12/06 12:53 PM
Dave
Diehl
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12/14/99
Posts: 1566
Loc: Houston, TX,
USA
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I assume that your EXP case is something like L1-L2 or

"operating" minus "installed with pressure". That would probably
indicate that, yes, the thermal load is generating the anchor
reaction.
Try this to confirm - run each load component by itself and find
out which one's doing it. That is L1:W, L2:P, L3:T1, L4:...
Any response due to displacement-based loads (T1, D1) will be
related to the "bellows" stiffness too.
_________________________
Dave Diehl
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#3686 - 01/12/06 02:12 PM
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Sun Wee
Member
Registered:
12/20/99
Posts: 75
Loc:
Calgary,Canada
Yes...your arrangement will not have pressure thrust problem in

current piping system with Style 77 coupling.
However, please remind that I assumed your system does not
have anchor support between Vic. couplings and pipe size and
length is not a huge..
Your two nozzles(anchor)may have pressure thrust load without
anchor support between coupling when pipe size is big and
length is hundred meters because support friction force may be
bigger than axial pressure force
Slip joint
Jeong-gyu
Park
Dear all
How can I put a "Slip Joint"(not bellows type) in CAESAR II?
Member
Registered:
06/21/05
Posts: 12
Loc: Seoul, South
Korea
Top
Thanks in advance!
_________________________
'a kernel of wheat'
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#3689 - 09/08/05 07:21 AM
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Re: Slip joint
John
Breen
Hello Jeonggyu,
Member
Actually, that topic is well covered in the Caesar II applications

manual. Also, you will get many replies to give you more advice.
Registered:
03/09/00
Posts: 482
Loc: Pittsburgh,
PA (& Texas)
I will discuss "slip joints" of this type only here:

http://www.advancedthermal.net/slipjoints/slip_joints.htm
There is an associated topic that you should consider however. I
copied this from a previous posting:
An associated topic for discussion might be the forces (of gland
seal friction) that "build up" in "slip joints" before the friction is
overcome by the increasing (with thermal expansion)axial force
and they "pop" and, in "One great leap", compress to
accommodate the pipe expansion. The compression of a slip joint
is NOT a smooth and continuous movement. The expansion
builds up the axial force until the force is greater than the friction
in the seal, then they move enough to "exhaust" just enough
force such that the force is again less than the resisting force of
friction. The axial expansion force builds up again, forcing
another sudden compression of the slip joint. The movements are

abrupt and quite like an impact loading as the slip joint
compresses on "heat-up"(and again as the joint is "pulled apart"
on "cool-down"). It would be prudent to design the reacting
anchors to be as robust as is practical in consideration of the
alternating (heat-up, cool-down) axial forces (dynamic and static)
that they must accommodate. We find broken anchors in many
investigations of in-service steam piping systems that employ slip
joints.
The seals in slip joints wear as a function of the heat and the
number of thermal cycles that they experience. As they "loosen",
the friction that resists the axial forces diminish. The joints
(usually) have an adjustment that allows the seal to be
"tightened" when it begins to leak due to wear (in-service
surveillance is prudent). Tightening the seals again increases the
friction and the associated resistance to compression/expansion
movements.
The Caesar II applications manual does not mention these
issues.
Regards, John.
_________________________
John Breen
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#3690 - 09/08/05 10:02 AM
Sun Wee
Member
Registered:
12/20/99
Posts: 75
Loc:
Calgary,Canada
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Re: Slip joint
Modeling is subject to what kind of slip-joint you are going to use,

that is, will control only axial movement or both axial and
lateral ?
Some slip joint for abrasive slurry and solid system should not be
used for lateral movement. In this case, you can model as CNode
with axial free and other five rigid DOF.
Typical Dresser Coupling for general service can absolve axial and
lateral(max. 4 deg.) simultaneously. For this case, you can model
as expansion bellows or two points CNode with axial and angular
free.
Please do not forget controlling pressure thrust and put the guide
support for this slip joint system. Also, gasket material is
sensitive to solvent and temperature.
If you want to get more information, please contact to any stress
engineers in Seoul; SKEC(Jaewon Chang), DIC(Byungkyu Ahn),
LGE&C(Seongeun Lee), Samsung(Yongbae Kim).

_________________________
Sun Wee
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#3691 - 09/10/05 08:35 AM
Aaron
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Re: Slip joint
Hi Gentlemen,
Member
Registered:
04/24/05
Posts: 28
I digress a bit.....as someone who has never used a slip joint

before I was intrigued by the I information I got from John Breen's
response and his link, specially the part that deals seal leakage!!
and the high performance (1000F/1000psig) of this item.
At these temperatures and pressures I would have thought that
all joints would be welded joints i.e. no flanges due to safety
reasons, never mind talk of joint leakage. I would have thought at
such high temperatures the expansion would have to be
absorbed by loops or expansion joints, even expansion joints at
such high temperatures and pressures are undesirable for safety
reasons, so prey enlighten me.
Can one use a slip joint in a petrochemical plant and satisfy the
health and safety requirements? or more to the point where does
one normally use
a slip joint?
I always thought that it is used in underground piping where low
temperature and pressure and large movements are anticipated.
I look forward to your comments.
Regards
A
_________________________
A
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#3692 - 09/10/05 03:25 PM
John
Breen
Member
Registered:
03/09/00
Posts: 482
Loc: Pittsburgh,
PA (& Texas)
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Re: Slip joint
Aaron,
Many large US cities have miles of steam tunnels that are the
routes of district heating steam piping systems. Large centrally
located boiler houses produce the steam and it is sold to large
office buildings, hospitals, and universities (just like electricity).
The piping in the tunnels delivers the steam and returns the
condensate to the boiler houses. There is no room for loops and
so the thermal expansion of the piping is accommodate by slip

joints. We go into the tunnels infrequently, so maintenance is
sporadic at best. These tunnels are very hot and quite noisy when
a steam line is heating up or cooling down because the slip joints
make loud "bangs" when they are compressed or expanded. The
resulting impact upon the anchors very often leaves them with
broken welds. Sometimes the anchor bolts are pulled out of their
concrete embedments. Yes, worn seals leak and sometimes it is
so bad that the stem must be shut off to enter the tunnel for
repair.
Regards, John.
_________________________
John Breen
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#3693 - 10/04/05 08:55 PM
Jeong-gyu
Park
Member
Registered:
06/21/05
Posts: 12
Loc: Seoul, South
Korea
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Member
Registered:
03/27/05
Posts: 50
Loc: Colombia
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Re: Slip joint
_________________________
'a kernel of wheat'
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Re: Slip joint
I vaguely recall using slip joints on a large bore (about 36) flare
line in a refinery many years ago. This is not common practice,
however, but with the inherent difficulty of providing flexibility in
large diameter sloping lines it would seem to make sense
(assuming, of course, the joint is leak free).
_________________________
Ricardo
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#10541 - 04/02/07 10:11 AM
ramanatha
Notify
Wow! I'm so grateful to you for all your comments and help. And
Sun Wee, are you Korean?
I wish to contact guys which you've mentioned, but I am just a
rookie in this field. Anyway thank you so much.
#3694 - 10/05/05 06:13 AM
El Gringo
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Re: Slip joint [Re: El Gringo]
for slip joints what will be the bending stifness values if it can
rotate about 4 degrees in lateral direction
Member
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03/22/07
Posts: 19
Loc: Qatar
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#10542 - 04/02/07 10:22 AM
Richard
Ay
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12/13/99
Posts: 5309
Loc: Houston,
Texas, USA
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01/11/04
Posts: 360
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Re: Slip joint [Re: ramanathan]
You'll have to ask the vendor for this sort of information.

_________________________
Regards,
Richard Ay
Intergraph CAS
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#10543 - 04/02/07 11:56 AM
Jouko
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Re: Slip joint [Re: Richard Ay]
Instead of slip joints I would look externally pressurized axial

compensator. Talk to one of the "better" suppliers or look into
main international supplier's pages. I have to warn that there are
"short cut suppliers". If you model these into CAESAR be careful
to get it right.
_________________________
Regards,
Jouko
jouko@jat.co.za
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#10544 - 04/02/07 11:38 PM
ramanatha
n
Member
Registered:
03/22/07
Posts: 19
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Re: Slip joint [Re: Jouko]
for slip joints what will be the bending stifness values if it can
rotate about 4 degrees in lateral direction. If i have to assume a
value what should be a good guess for 10" std pipe
Loc: Qatar
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#10545 - 04/03/07 07:56 AM
MoverZ
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John,
Member
Registered:
11/22/06
Posts: 1149
Loc: Hants, UK
So when the district heating steam slip joint needs replacement,

would it be with another similar ? Put another way, is a slip joint
in that service considered current engineering practice in the
USA, or to be avoided these days ?
I have seen new and upgraded systems installed in Europe,
Rotterdam, Copenhagen, Oslo for instance and all used axial
bellows.
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#10547 - 04/03/07 08:53 AM
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Re: Slip joint [Re: Jouko]
John
Breen
Hi MoverZ,
Member
We are still using them. Last year we put in 7 miles of new

tunnels with steam and condensate return piping for the
University of P********h (and their hospital systems) and the bid
specification mandated slip joints of the type shown in the 9-8-05
reference above. At this point many owners are reluctant to
change what they have done for years. Probably with the
technology advances made in the last 20 years, bellows types
(made to the EJMA Standard with the more predictable cycle life)
would be a good choice but much of the time the "engineering" is
done by the purchasing departments.
Registered:
03/09/00
Posts: 482
Loc: Pittsburgh,
PA (& Texas)
BTW, I didn't know that "slip joints" could be deflected laterally.

I am surprised we have not heard from CraigB on this one as he
has spent more time underground than a coal miner. Maybe he
would rather forget?
Regards, John.
Edited by John Breen (04/03/07 08:54 AM)
_________________________
John Breen
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#10548 - 04/03/07 09:09 AM
ramanatha
n
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Re: Slip joint [Re: John Breen]
I am talking about dresse couplings
Member
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03/22/07
Posts: 19
Loc: Qatar
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#10551 - 04/03/07 12:01 PM
CraigB
John
Member
Registered:
05/16/06
Posts: 378
Loc: Denver, CO
I have studiously avoided this post after your extremely thorough

response to the initial question. But you are right - I have
personally been through most of the steam tunnels in P********h.
Mostly, when the slip joints fail, the repairs can be accomplished
by replacing the packing in the joint. Actually, I remember those
trips fondly - not for the environment or the view, but for the fact
that in those days I was strong and flexible enough to scramble
around down there and not have to spend days recovering. Those
were the days!
I suspect the reluctance of owners to replace slip joints with
bellows comes from two sources.
1. They are comfortable with the performance of the slip joints.
2. They are concerned with catastrophic failure of a bellows at
high loads. Slip joints, although they leak a lot, have virtually no
chance of a catastrophic failure.
Finally, a few paragraphs for ramanathan:
You are continually posting a question here that no competent
stress engineer would think of replying to. And if, by some
chance, somebody posts a number, are you going to use it in
your model? How in hell do you plan on citing the source?
Grow up! A part of becoming a competent stress engineer is
developing the ability to research issues like this in a professional
manner. In this case, as Richard Ay has already stated, you need
to contact a representative of the manufacturer of the coupling
you propose to use, and get a response directly from him that
you can use in a model and cite in your report.
Anything less than that is simply negligence. If you reported to
me, and used a number in a stress analysis that you got off an
internet discussion forum, I'd fire you. Got it?
_________________________
CraigB
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#10553 - 04/04/07 12:14 AM
ramanatha
n
Member
Registered:
03/22/07
Posts: 19
Loc: Qatar
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Re: Slip joint [Re: CraigB]
craig
thankyou for the information I am doing some testing work of slip
joint modeling that is the reason i asked for a guess value this is
not for any project.
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#10558 - 04/04/07 10:28 AM
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Richard
Yee
ramanathan,
Member
Check the Hyspan Barco website for a number of flexible joint

options,
Registered:
12/16/99
Posts: 166
Loc: Chesterfield,
MO 63017
www.hyspan.com
The Barco ball joints could allow more rotation than a slip-joint, if
that is required. The O**o State University Powerhouse has a pair
of 10" Barco ball joints in a configuration similar to a tied
universal assembly. This accomodates the steam piping
differential movements between the 200 psi steam main header
and the tunnel entry point for steam service line to their
fieldhouse. Ball joint operating forces are affected by friction and
lubrication, like the slip joint operation.
The limited space inside a tunnel means the piping linear
expansion is taken in the Dresser type slip joints, and the corners
are relatively fixed in position. The above ground steam lines are
usually arranged so that there is clearance at corners for the
expansion to bend the piping, loops or flexible joints. The choice
to use slip joint, ball joint, bellows joint, or expansion loop, will
depend on expansion, fluid service, reliability, cost, loads, and

available space constraints, among others.
_________________________
R Yee
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#10563 - 04/04/07 05:20 PM
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Re: Slip joint [Re: Richard Yee]
John
Breen
Hi Richard,
Member
I see that you too are an explorer of tunnels!!! O**o State's steam
tunnel network is legend.
Registered:
03/09/00
Posts: 482
Loc: Pittsburgh,
PA (& Texas)
http://www.infiltration.org/underosu/tunnels.html
BTW, did you watch the O**o State F*****a basketball game? I
was rooting for the Buckeyes but sadly it was not to be.
Regards, John.
_________________________
John Breen
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#10586 - 04/05/07 02:01 PM
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Richard
Yee
John,
Member
The pictures and information of the utility tunnels are definitely

educational for pipers that are used to the wide open spaces of
refineries and process plants. We were fortunate that we did not
need to go back too far into the tunnels - just needed to verify
which way the piping was expected to move. The recently
completed project replaced four boilers and auxilaries. The old
boilers were 40-50 years old. Parts of the building date back
almost 100 years with riveted structural beams, riveted vessels,
and some TG units old enough to be in the Smithsonian museum.
Some portions of the utility tunnels must be the same age.
Registered:
12/16/99
Posts: 166
Loc: Chesterfield,
MO 63017
The Florida schools do have some advantages when recruiting

athletes for the nice warm climate there. The Buckeyes have a
long tradition to help them keep competitive in big sports. I heard
that the income from just four football games provides funding
for all the athletic programs there.
Their university hospital receives steam from the powerhouse,

and due to its importance factor, there were seismic design
requirements added for the project. New piping has seismic
restraints, while existing piping got grandfathered in. Did project
piping for Univeristy of P********h require a similar consideration
for seismic restraints ( not knowing the zone)? It would seem that
the piping in utility tunnels would be sufficiently restrained for
seismic type loads, without added struts or bracing.
Regards,
Richard Yee
_________________________
R Yee
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#10594 - 04/06/07 06:53 AM
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Re: Slip joint [Re: Richard Yee]
John
Breen
Hello again Richard,
Member
We did the seismic analyses for the University of P********h

tunnel piping and as you stated the systems were very much
guided into the slip joints so the stresses calculated in the
seismic analyses were low (I think that most RFP's now routinly
ask for seismic analyses to IBC). We allowed a little more freedom
for the pipe to move at the "free" elbows. Many of the elbows
were restrained and the expansion was "pushed" away from them
and into the joints. "Lessons learned" compelled the design of
stout reinforced concrete anchors and restraints.
Registered:
03/09/00
Posts: 482
Loc: Pittsburgh,
PA (& Texas)
I was drawn into a legal case (not one of my favorite pursuits)

involving one of the replacement boilers that you mentioned. It
was one of those cases where the "project management
company" was not always represented on-site, the original design
was not "constructible" and the mechanical contractor ended up
making the "design drawings" of the system that was actually
built (but never properly analyzed). The owner stepped in and
fired everybody. Needless to say, the seismic analyses were
never done and none of the piping for the project was in the
steam tunnels. I had the opportunity to spend some time in the
power house and as you said it was a fascinating place.
Regards, John
_________________________
John Breen
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#10596 - 04/06/07 07:21 AM
John C.
Luf
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03/25/02
Posts: 1110
Loc: U.S.A.
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P********h = pukesburgh ????

_________________________
Best Regards,
John C. Luf
Reply Quote
#10599 - 04/06/07 09:21 AM
Re: Slip joint [Re: John C. Luf]
John
Breen
Hello All,
Member
My esteemed colleague, Herr Luf (a Cleveland native) has yet

again thrown the gauntlet (will he never learn).
Registered:
03/09/00
Posts: 482
Loc: Pittsburgh,
PA (& Texas)
http://cgi.ebay.com/Only-Sign-Life-Cleve...3QQcmdZViewItem
Now you have seen the T-shirt. A picture of a road sign:
PITTSBURGH, 142 MILES. Underneath, the words: THE ONLY SIGN
OF LIFE IN CLEVELAND.
Pittsburgh and Cleveland residents squabble like kid cousins at a
family picnic, trading insults and maintaining legendary "turnpike
rivalries", especially (but not exclusively) in football. Actually I
know many nice people from Cleveland. Cleveland is a nice place
to be from.
Ha! And he thought I would respond negatively. I guess I showed
him.
Regards, John
Edited by John Breen (04/06/07 09:22 AM)
_________________________
John Breen
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#10601 - 04/06/07 10:23 AM
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John C.
Luf
well I'll see you your ebay url and raise you another ebay url.....
Member
http://cgi.ebay.com/Pittsburgh-Sucks-Cle...VQQcmdZViewItem
Registered:
03/25/02
Posts: 1110
Loc: U.S.A.
Happy Easter John

_________________________
Best Regards,
John C. Luf

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Dresser Coupling

How can I modeing 'Dresser Coupling' in expansion joint modeler.

Re: Dresser Coupling

Koo Keun Hoe,

Re: Dresser Coupling

[Re: Dave Diehl]

I am going to model Victaulic flexible coupling (DN350)on the pump

Re: Dresser Coupling

The focus was on those three DOFs (X, RY, RZ).

Re: Dresser Coupling

If you have a anchor support on piping side close to the Victaulic

Re: Dresser Coupling

[Re: Richard Yee]

Thanks for your reply Dave and Richard.

Do we need to consider pressure thrust for the Victaulic style 77 flexible

Re: Dresser Coupling

Modelling DRESSER Couplings

I must introduce a Dresser coupling into a pipe stress analysis.

Re: Modelling DRESSER Couplings

It shouldn't be different to slip joint, Victaulic coupling, or simple

Re: Modelling DRESSER Couplings

Thanks Sun Wee,

My email is: rkuhn@cadeidepe.cl

How to model a Joint DRESSER , type 38?

Re: How to model a Joint DRESSER , type 38?

Re: How to model a Joint DRESSER , type 38?

Re: How to model a Joint DRESSER , type 38?

Re: How to model a Joint DRESSER , type 38?

I wrote the paper.

Re: How to model a Joint DRESSER , type 38?

Sorry! I forgot that you wrote the paper!

Re: How to model a Joint DRESSER , type 38?

Re: How to model a Joint DRESSER , type 38?

how to model dress coupling

My email adress is ypu@pipesys.com. Thanks for your help. Could you

Re: how to model dress coupling

Re: how to model dress coupling

[Re: Richard Ay]

Re: how to model dress coupling

I don't have a CAESAR II model with a Dresser Coupling. These posts

Re: how to model dress coupling

[Re: Richard Ay]

Ok, here is a small sample model.

Also check out this article in one of the newsletters:

Re: how to model dress coupling

[Re: Richard Ay]

Pressure Thrust on Victaulic Coupling?

We know that a straight pipeline anchored at both sides (which

#49051 - 05/31/12 02:56 AM

Quick Reply Quick Quote

Re: Pressure Thrust on Victaulic Coupling? [Re:

Victaulic joints do resist axial pressure thrust.

#49054 - 05/31/12 07:07 AM

Quick Reply Quick Quote

Re: Pressure Thrust on Victaulic Coupling? [Re:

But the pressure thrust goes to pump foundation? We need

#49056 - 05/31/12 07:31 AM

Re: Pressure Thrust on Victaulic Coupling? [Re:

Quick Reply Quick Quote

Re: Pressure Thrust on Victaulic Coupling? [Re:

#49063 - 05/31/12 08:47 AM

Look carefully at a section drawing of a victaulic joint. There is a

#49060 - 05/31/12 07:49 AM

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