BOMB Magazine - Dario Fo by Matthew Fleury

BOMB Magazine Dario Fo by Matthew Fleury
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http://bombmagazine.org/article/664/dario-fo
BOMB Artists in Conversation

BOMB 12
Spring 1985
Interviews
Daily Quarterly Archive Subscribe
Theater : Interview
Dario Fo
by Matthew Fleury
Art : Interview
Lisa
Fonssagrives-Penn
by David Seidner
Theater : Interview
Dario Fo
by Matthew Fleury
Art : Interview
Raymond Voinquel
by Samia Saouma
Art : Interview
Bruce Weber
by Rosemary
Carroll
Art : Interview
Cindy Sherman
by Betsy Sussler
First Proof
Literature : First Proof
S.O.F.
by Roberto Vargas
Bluefields
by Mara Gallo
A Star Is Needed
To Get To Heaven
by Csar Young
Nuez
Momotombo
by Charles Tarzian
A Note To The
Readers (More
Pleasure Than
Work)
Dario Fo. Photograph 1984 Elise Passikoff.
Dario Fo is one of Italy's foremost playwrights. He is regarded by many in Europe as

the leading political satirist of the day. His works have been staged the world over.
An adaptation of one of the best known of his plays, Accidental Death of an
Anarchist, was produced on Broadway last fall.
He is perhaps better known in the States for his difficulties with the American
government than for his plays. The State Department has twice refused to grant
entry visas to Fo and his wife, the actress Franca Rame, under the "ideological
exclusion" provision of the Immigration & Naturalization Act of 1952.
Shortly after this interview was recorded in Milan last September, however, the US
(at the urging of the ACLU, PEN, the Dramatists Guild, and others) reversed itself
and granted Fo and Rame visas to come to New York for the final rehearsals and the
opening of Accidental Death.
We visited with Franca Rame at the offices of their theater collective, La Comune,
and spoke with Dario Fo in their flat near the Roman Gate. The apartment was
spacious, airy, and bright. Sculptured figures were scattered about, and on the walls
were costume sketches, drawings, paintings (many of them by Fo, who studied
painting and architecture before turning to theater), and a row of masks. Some
carpets were rolled up in a corner.
Rosanna Case of La Comune was our translator.
M. Fleury
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by Roland
Legiardi-Laura
Remembrance
And Elegy For A
Sailor
by Claudia Lars
Smoke Defines
Light: A Fiction
with Tarot
Readings by Jane
Nelson
by Craig Gholson
If Faust Had Been

My Daughter
by Shelley Berc
Two Stories
by Victor Montejo
Rosanna Case But this is not new.

MF I mean new to New York.
RC And what do you want to know about it?
MF What are its origins? How has it come to be produced in New York? Why on
Broadway?
Dario Fo The events upon which the play is based took place in 1969. A bomb
exploded in the center of Milan, near the Duomo. Sixteen died. The police blamed
the anarchists, one of whom, Giovanni Pinelli, they seized. Later on he was thrown
from a window at police headquarters. There is considerable evidence that Pinellis
death was murder, not an accident as the police claimed, so the title Accidental
Death of an Anarchist, is ironic. We are sure it was not an accident. . . . It was
murder. . . . But this is the official police characterization of the event. The case was
filed as an accidental death.
MF So for the record this Pinelli stands accused of this crime, but he was killed
before . . .
DF He was not accused. He was only a suspect.
At War
by Victoria Redel
MF Was anyone ever brought to trial?
Two Poems
by Francisco
Arteaga
El Chupadero
by Zo Anglesey
The Front
by Gina Mara
Caruso
Two Poems
by Isabel de los
ngeles Ruano
Notes for a Love

Story that Never
Was
by Jacinta Escudos
The Lilac with

Mastering Odor
by Jeanne Larson
DF Yes. Another anarchist was accused. There was a long trial, and he was
acquitted.
MF Were these members of the Red Guard?
DF Pinelli was a member of an anarchist organization. A very small group. There
were various groups of anarchists, very little groups, because you know
anarchiststhey dont agree. It was just a group of people who believed in
anarchism. They gathered together for discussions and so on.
MF So he was not a member of the Red Guard.
DF No. The group was completely detached from the Red Guard.
MF How did the play come to be produced in New York?
DF Its been produced all over the world. Why so late in America? This same piece
has been produced in Germany, London, France, Japan, Argentina, Brazil, even in
Sri Lanka. New York is merely the latest.
MF The answer to that, I think, is that in the US the market has a greater say in
determining what goes onto the stage, because there is less funding from the
government, less State funding, and now, with the Reagan administration, even
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Quesada
Three Poems
by Alejandro Bravo
DF But there is a demand for my works. They have been translated and staged all
over the world. And insofar as the market now demands this play, there havent
been any political objections to it. In London, for example, it played in Picadilly
Circus, in an important theater.
Seizure
by Kimiko Hahn
Haunted Houses
by Lynne Tillman
Three Poems
by Alexis Ramrez
Pamphlet
by Alfonso Quijada
Uras
MF Well, let me put the question back to you. Why do you think its taken so long?
DF The US is always striving for independence from Europe, to free itself from
psychological dependence on European culture, to produce its own culture on its
own terms. Of course, there are exceptions. Americans will accept from abroad
what is very important, what is extraordinary, what needs to be known in the States.
In the US there is presently a chauvinistic explosion, in the sense that chauvinism
expresses an Imperial attitudeof holding oneself in very high esteem, of elevating
ones own truth over all others. When the war was over there was an enormous
hunger for all that was Europeanit is enough to cite the interest in Italian
neorealist and French cinema. And now there is a reaction, and the situation is
reversed.
Il 4 luglio, 1924
by Marguerite
Feitlowitz
Two Poems
by Mauricio
Marquina
The Moment of
Passion
by Ana Istar
1954
by Arturo Arias
If Death . . .
by Miguel Huezo
Mixco
Talking To Himself
by Benjamn
Ramn
The Chief
by Quince Duncan
If I Were May
by Carlos Rigby
MF Political playsparticularly those of European provenanceoften do not

succeed in the US not because there is an intrinsic resistance to them so much as
there is no correspondence; they have little meaning to most Americans because
our experience is so different. In large citiesin New York, San Francisco, Los
Angeles, Chicagothere is more sympathy for the point of view of these plays, but
elsewhere they might as well be plays from the moon.
DF Sometimes the reason for such failures originates in the strange mania on the
part of American writers for meddling with the texts of European writers. The
producer and director of the Washington production at first inserted songs and
altered the text. It was a disaster. It was a play all right, but it wasnt my play. Finally
the producer realized they should present an accurate translation, with nothing
added, and this proved very successful. Before, they had this idea that everything
should be simplified for the American mind. This is an insult to the American
people.
MF What work are you involved with now?
(At this point Dario Fo shows us a catalog of exhibition of posters, drawings, masks,
etc. connected with his plays. The show was then touring Europe.)
DF I am working within the system I usually adopt. I am writing on different
subjects and at different stages at once. One of the things I am working on is a
history of kidnapping, the kidnapping of a very important Italian woman, associated
with the banking houses, whose name is a sort of symbol for these interests. This
woman is kidnapped, but she is so clever that she manages to foil her kidnappers.
MF There is a story by the American writer, O. Henry. A comic story. Its about two
fellows who, to make a quick buck, kidnap a boy and take him away, but he turns
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Misc
Three Photographs
by Deborah
Turbeville
Art : Portfolio
Revenge of the
Nerds
by Gretchen
Bender
Art : Portfolio
Gene Meatyard
by Guy Mendes
Art : Portfolio
Cowboy Hat
(autoportrait from
A.H. Series)
by Jimmy DeSana
Art : Portfolio
Untitled (Falling
Woman)
by Louis Renzoni
Art : Portfolio
Untitled
Photograph
by Ralph Eugene
Meatyard
Art : Portfolio
Equation for
Mettropposttersizer
by Rammellzee
Art : Portfolio
Untitled
Photograph
by Sarah Wells
Art : Portfolio
HAI DUC
by Troy Tecau
Art : Portfolio
Social Studies
by William Coupon
Art : Portfolio
Girl Observing the

Moon
by Armando
Morales
Two Photographs
Art : Portfolio
Art : Portfolio
MF There may have been.

DF This story Im working on is meant to be read taking into account the situation
with kidnappers here. Italian kidnappers are very different from their American
counterparts.
MF My mother warned me to watch out for kidnappers over here.
DF I understand very well. There average some seven or eight important
kidnappings per monthone or two weekly.
MF I would say that kidnapping is one of the first things that Americans would cite
if you were to ask them what comes to mind when they think of Italy.
DF This work is a satire which sends up the banking system, to make the reader
understand that the bankers profit because they recycle this kidnapping money. So
the truth is, the bankers determine the kidnappings, and it happens that, in a sense,
the bankers are kidnapped by themselves. This is the key to this satire on the Italian
situation.
MF Could I ask what your status is now with the American government? Has there
been any progress on that?
DF The latest request for a visa has been declined. As Franca told you, it was
solicited on our behalf by PEN . . . Would you like something to drink?
(We have some mineral water.)
MF When was the last time you were in the States?
DF Ive never been.
MF What are the official grounds for refusing you a visa?
DF The official grounds are that Franca and I have helped organize and contributed
our efforts on behalf of Succorso Russo, Red Help. This is a term dating from the
workers struggles of 1921. That was the period when many workers were put into
prison by the Fascists, and there were strikes also in the factories. This organization
collected funds, but more than that, they also dramatized their solidarity with the
struggles of the workers. The organization now has been put together to fulfill a
similar purpose, but the area which most interests us now is civil rights. Many of
the cases were involved in pertain to the rights and interests of political prisoners.
For instance, we are struggling to have a man freed from prison; his trial is pending,
and he has been in prison for eight years, and he is now definitely dying.
MF Many Americans are outraged that you and Franca are not permitted into the
United States. We regret as you do that at the moment, and at least for the
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themselves in a similar situationstarting with Chaplin. And now Marquez. I will

meet with Marquez in Toronto for a demonstration . . . There is nothing new under
the sun . . . When youve got the power, you use non-democratic means to maintain
this power, even if you speak as a democrat and pay lip service to civil rights, even if
you profess democratic values.
MF I want to ask you about La Comune. Is it a repertory company? How is it
organized?
DF Presently, it has a conventional structure compared to the Comune of some
years ago . . . Before it was an association wherein every member had the same
rights in the name of a communal, socialist society . . . It was archaic in the sense
that it harkened back to a primitive, mystical society.
MF Then it reflects upon the original idea of the Comune, the Italian Comune?
DF Yes, all is in common . . . But there has been an evolution determined by outside
circumstances and conditionsthe realities of the political situation, for example.
These have affected our organization and structure. The first thing to happen was
this: the municipality of Milan compelled us to give back our theater, the place
where we staged our plays. It was a building in a nearby park. So now we dont
have a building of our own. But we can work all the same. All of these things
outside have forced us to organize ourselves more conventionally, with me and
Franca basically responsible for the company.
MF To what end is it directed?
DF Our aim is the same as before, to offer theater which reflects the real political
situation prevailing today, by depicting the injustice and oppression of society, and
by exposing the people who wield the power . . . The form is ironical, satirical. It is
entertaining. We aim to make people laugh, and not only laugh, but to reason as
well. Because reasoning is one of the most interesting entertainments. And then we
are always at the disposal of people who are struggling for causes with which we
sympathize: civil rights, prisoners rights, the womens movement, workers issues,
etc.
MF Would it be fair to say that your art is subordinate to ideology, or are they meant
to coexist, to reinforce one another?
DF This is a very dangerous concept . . . It is dangerous to weigh art against politics,
philosophy, ideology, etc . . . as if art were something completely detached from the
others, pure and uncontaminated. Art is polluted. Pure art does not exist at all,
because art must have a very strong relation to the facts of life. Shakespeare was
completely immersed in the politics of his time. Hamlet was a merciless critique of
the politics of Elizabeth.
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MF But do you think that the art, in this case the theater, should express a certain
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DF I want to underline that it is the dialectic of the politics, not the politics in itself
that matters. It is this one should use as a standard. How you entertain, how you
amuseherein lies the artistry.
MF But should it instruct?
DF Yes, if it also succeeds didactically, if it also instructs, so much the better.
MF To what extent is your work collaborative?
DF It is collaborative inasmuch as the work is influenced by the discussions I have
with the audience before, during, and after performances. Of course, the audience is
composed of progressive people. Sometimes the play will be completely rewritten
as the outcome of of these discussions. The comments of the audience are very
important, because you can compare different reactions to the same piece. For
some pieces we have three or four different versions. They are revised according to
the comments from the audience.
MF How long have you and Franca been working together?
DF Since both of us entered the theater30 years, 32 years ago.
MF I dont think I made it clear before. It is going to be your name on the billboard.
It will say Accidental Death of an Anarchist, by Dario Fo. Is that fair? Or would it be
more just to say Dario Fo & Franca Rame?
DF This one is my own work. Other pieces have been written together.
MF Orgasmo Adulto Escapes from the Zoo had a very strong feminist point of view.
Was that principally Franca Rames work?
DF It was based on some ideas from Franca, but the actual writing for the theater,
the treatment, was done by me. And then Franca adapted the text for her
performance.
MF Are you a native of Milan? Why have you chosen this city?
DF We are not from Milan, but nearby. From Lombardy. We both studied here. It is
our town.
MF And the city has been receptive to you and your work?
DF Yes, very.
MF Are there any playwrights, either from the pastI was thinking of Brechtor
contemporary, who have strongly influenced you?
(Door buzzer sounds.)
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(Workmen arrive to pick up the carpets. The interview is over.)

Tags: Plays, Protest, Radicalism, political theater, european culture and society
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BOMB Artists in Conversation

Daily Quarterly Archive Subscribe

Dario Fo. Photograph 1984 Elise Passikoff.

Dario Fo is one of Italy's foremost playwrights. He is regarded by many in Europe as