9/3/2016

StatisticalTolerancesinGD&T(GeometricDimensioning&Tolerancing)?

Register

ForumHomePage PostAttachmentFiles SearchForumDiscussions SearchallofElsmar Help Lost

Password

TheElsmarCoveBusinessSystemsandStandardsDiscussionForums>Nationaland
InternationalBusinessSystemStandards>VariousOtherSpecifications,Standards,and
relatedRequirements

StatisticalTolerancesinGD&T(GeometricDimensioning&
Tolerancing)?
Register

PhotoAlbums

Blogs

FAQ

Community

ForumUserName ForumUserName KeepMeLoggedIn

Password

Calendar

Login

Today'sPosts

Search

ElsmarCoveForumVisitorNotice(s)

SomepeoplehavebeenhavingPasswordResetissues(especially"Hotmail"accounts).Ifyouhaveaproblem,contactthe
PeachfarmInternetPropertiesITtechsdirectlyatpeachfarmllc{at}neomailbox.ch(Switzerland)andwewillresolveyour
problem(s)within12hours.

StatisticalTolerancesinGD&T(GeometricDimensioning&Tolerancing)?
ElsmarXMLRSSFeed

RelatedTopicTags
gd&t(geometricdimensioning&tolerancing),tolerances(dimensionalorotherunits)
Page1of4 1 2 3 4 >

MonitortheElsmarForum
MonitorNewForumPosts

ThreadTools

SearchthisThread

7thApril2011,12:55PM
SponsorLinks

Dylan545

RateThreadContent

DisplayModes

PostNumber#1
TotalPosts:6

StatisticalTolerancesinGD&T(GeometricDimensioning&Tolerancing)?

We100%inspectapartofours,duetopartliabilityissuesandnotanoutofcontrolprocess,using
hardgages.The100%inspectionisdrivenbycustomerrequirementsandifnotthenmycompany
wouldnotneedtoputallthatqualitytimeintotheparts.Oneoftheprintdimensionshasaparallelism
thathasbothastatisticaltolerance(ST)andaarithmetictolerance.Whenbuildingthegagesweused
thestatisticaltoleranceforthisparallelism.Wehavejustrecentlyremadethegagestogobacktothe
arithmetictolerance.MycustomersaidthatsincewearenotusingSPCinprocesswecannotusethe
statisticaltolerance.IknowASMEY14.5clearlystatesthat"Featuresidentifiedasstatistically
tolerancedshallbeproducedwithstatisticalprocesscontrols".Myinterpretationofthestandardwas
thatyoucanusethestatisticaltoleranceswhencontrolisassured?Inthiscasecontrolisassuredby
the100%inspection,againdrivenbypartdemandsandnotprocessinstability.AmIwrongwhenI
assumedwewereallowedtousethestatisticaltolerance?OristheresomereasonwhySPCmustbe
used?IfsothenmynextquestionisthatthestandarddoesnotspecifywhatlevelofSPCyouneedto
beattousethestatisticaltolerance.SoevenifIwasrunningata.002CpkIcanusethestatistical
tolerancesaslongasIcollectthedata?
Justwantedtogetsomeexpertopiniononthis?Andifanyonecouldpointmetowardsliteratureto
supportmyoriginalclaim?Iwouldgreatlyappreciateit.

SponsoredLinks

7thApril2011,02:37PM

Sturmkind

PostNumber#2
TotalPosts:268

Re:StatisticalTolerancesinGD&T?

Hi,Dylan545!
Wasthestatistical'tolerance'andarbitrarypercentageofthefullarithmetictolerance(like75%)?
ProcessSPCUpper&Lowerlimitsarebasedonthedatasetobserveditself.Whatdoesthedatasay

http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=47507

1/5

9/3/2016

StatisticalTolerancesinGD&T(GeometricDimensioning&Tolerancing)?
CourtesyQuickLinks

whenanalyzedinarunchartformatandthenwhengroupedandcomparedtothehardtolerancelimit?
Isthedatanormallydistributed?

SponsoredLinks

LinksthatCovevisitorswill
findusefulinyourquestfor
knowledge:

7thApril2011,06:37PM

Miner

International
StandardsBodies
WorldWideStandards
Bodies

PostNumber#3
TotalPosts:3,850

Re:StatisticalTolerancesinGD&T?

ASQAmerican
SocietyforQuality
International
Standards
OrganizationISO
Standardsand
Information
Atul's
QualityForumOnline
Howard's
InternationalQuality
Services
MarceloAntunes'
SQRConsulting,and
MedicalDevicesExpert
Forum
BobDoering
BobDoering'sBlogsand,
CorrectSPCPrecision
Machining
NIST'sEngineering
StatisticsHandbook
IRCAInternational
RegisterofCertified
Auditors
SAESocietyof
AutomotiveEngineers
QualityDigest
IESTInstituteof
EnvironmentalSciences
andTechnology

Statisticaltolerancesarebasedontheassumptionthattheprocessiscenteredonthetargetvalueand
thattheprocessvariationfollowsaNormaldistribution.So,eventhoughyouare100%gagingthe
product,thisdoesnotensurethattheprocessiscentered,andthattheprocessisNormallydistributed.
Ifforexample,yourprocessiscenteredhalfwaybetweenthetargetandthespecificationtherewillbe
amuchhigherpercentageofproductatthespecificationlimit.Eventhoughyouareinspectingforout
ofspec,thepercentagejustwithinspecishigherthanassumed.Thismeansthattheprobabilityofan
undesirabletolerancestackupismuchgreater.
Yourcustomeriscorrect.NoSPC,nostatisticaltolerances.
ThankYoutoMinerforyourinformativePostand/orAttachment!

BevD,Marc
7thApril2011,09:57PM

PostNumber#4

bobdoering

TotalPosts:4,011

Re:StatisticalTolerancesinGD&T?

Ofcourse,theonlytimeyoucanuseSPCforparallelismisifyoureallystink.Thecloseryougetto
zero(asinperfectlyparallel),themorenonnormaltheprocessis(asinWeibullorbetadistributions)
andall(well,OK,most)betsareoffthen.Itisaunilateraltolerancewithaphysicallimitation,nota
bilateraltolerancewithacenteredtarget.Thetargetiszero.Cpkisnotapplicable.
Ifyouwereprecisionmachining,forexample,youwouldnotSPCparallelism.Itistheincorrectusage
oftheSPCtool.YouSPCthehi/lovaluesofthethickness,andtherangeistheparallelism(Xhi/loR
chart).But...thatisifthepredominantvariationistoolwearforthatdimension.
Lasteditedbybobdoering7thApril2011at10:03PM.

8thApril2011,01:46AM

BarbaraB

PostNumber#5
TotalPosts:390

Re:StatisticalTolerancesinGD&T?
Quote:
InReplytoParentPostbybobdoering
Cpkisnotapplicable.

Cpkisapplicable,Cpisn't,duetotheonesidedtolerance.Aphysicallimitismathematicallydifferent
fromatolerancelimit.TocalculateCpyouhavetohaveatolerancewidth(differencebetweenUSLand
LSL)andwithoutLSLorratherLSL=infinityCpbecomesalwaysinfinity(nothelpfultoevaluatethe
process).
ButtogetareliableCpk,youhavetodescribethedistributionofthedatawithanappropriate
distributionfunctionlikethetruncatednormaldistributionfordatawithatechnicallimit.
Regards,
Barbara
8thApril2011,06:21AM

PostNumber#6
TotalPosts:4,011

http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=47507

2/5

9/3/2016

StatisticalTolerancesinGD&T(GeometricDimensioning&Tolerancing)?

bobdoering

Re:StatisticalTolerancesinGD&T?
Quote:
InReplytoParentPostbyBarbaraB
Cpkisapplicable.

ThepointofCpkistounderstandwhetheryourdistributioniscentered.Justbecauseyoucancalculate
itdoesnotreallygiveitanymeaning,asinthiscase.
Quote:
InReplytoParentPostbyBarbaraB
ButtogetareliableCpk,youhavetodescribethedistributionofthedatawithanappropriatedistribution
functionlikethetruncatednormaldistributionfordatawithatechnicallimit.

Tounderstandtherelationshipofyourprocessvariationtoyourspecification,youdoneedthecorrect
distribution.Inthiscaseitwouldnotbeatruncatednormal,butratheraWeibullorbetaandtheonly
differencebetweenthemishowtheybehaveasthedataaccumulatedat'0'.
Ifyoustepbackfromthealgebraandjustlookatthedefinitions,youwillseethatcapabilityis
determininghowmuchofyourtoleranceisusedupbyyourprocessvariation.Althoughyoudonot
havealowerspec,thephysicalzoneyoucanexistinforparallelismisbetween0andyourparallelism
spec.Sonottoconfusethepurists,IwillnotcallitCp,butyoucanlookatyourcapabilityas(USL
0)/(widthofcorrectdistribution).Forthenormaldistribution,thewidthisdefinedas+/3stddev.For
otherdistributions,thatmaynotbeappropriate.Cpkisdesignedspecificallytodetermineifthat
distributionusageiscenteredwithinyourtolerance.Thenotioncanbetwistedtosomedegreeto
determinehowfaryourmeanisfromaunilateraltolerance,butthatisreallyansweringaquestionthat
wasnotintendedtobeasked.So,eventhoughitcanbecalculatedasanacademicexercise,its
usefulnessisvastlydiminished.
ThankstobobdoeringforyourinformativePostand/orAttachment!

Miner
8thApril2011,09:23AM

Dylan545

PostNumber#7
TotalPosts:6

Re:StatisticalTolerancesinGD&T?

Thanksallfortheresponses!
IguessIwasnotclearinmyoriginalpost.SPC,Cpk,Cp,etc.wasusedtoestablishthestatistical
tolerances.MyguesswouldbetheRSSmethod,buthonestlycan'trememberbecauseIremember
studyingthestandarddistforeverythingalso.Thestackupwasanalyzedandsomedimensions
remainedwheretheywere.Some(likemyparallelism)wereallowedtoopenup,becausethe
probabilityoftheworsecasescenariowaslow.Parts(andasanymanufacturerbelieves,theprocess
also)whereapprovedbymanytiersofcustomers.Flashforwardtoproduction,hardinprocessgages
andhardfinalgageswereengineeredandmanufactured.100%inspectionmethodswereestablished
andimplemented,againduetopartliabilityandnotprocessfault.Theprocesswasproven.We,of
course,stoppedanydatagathering,becausewetrustourprocessandcouldnotdumpanymoremoney
intothequalityofthisproduct.Myquestionis,didwethen,sincestoppingdatacollection,haveto
revertbacktothearithmetictolerance,accordingtoindustrystandards?
IcanholdmyownintheGD&Tworldbuthaven'tdealtmuchwithstatisticaltolerances.Socould
someoneanswermethis?Whatisthepointinopeninguptolerancesto3oreven6sigma,whento
mathematicallyjustifythisyourprocessmusthold+1.5sigma?Thisisanexaggerationofcoursebut
italwaysappearstoendupthatwaytome!
thanksagaineveryone.
P.S.IdobelieveCpandCpkcouldbeusedonaparallelism.Ithinkyoubelievethatsincethetargetis
0itwouldalwaysbeonesidedcurve.Butintermsofstudyingyourprocessyouwouldneedtogotto
thenegative.Callingaangleonewayapositivevarianceandtheangletheotherdirectionanegative
variance.
8thApril2011,10:35AM

PeterTruitt

PostNumber#8
TotalPosts:7

http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=47507

3/5

9/3/2016

StatisticalTolerancesinGD&T(GeometricDimensioning&Tolerancing)?
Re:StatisticalTolerancesinGD&T?

IMHO,youshouldhaveacontractorclearagreementwithyourcustomerthatestablishestheintensity
ofinspection.Youmightstartoutwith100%inspectionof100%oftheparts,butdatashouldbeginto
justify100%(inyourcase?)of<100%oftheparts.Thegoalsshouldbe'docktostock'regardlessof
whetherornotyouevergetthere.Youmightneedtogetbetterthanyourcustomerindoing
mathematicalerroranalysisandsupplierauditingandreversetrainthemtoaudityou.
Ithinkthatstatisticaltolerancingestablishesdesignrequirementsthatmightbeusedtoensurethata
customerrequirementsuchasMTBFisaccountedforinthedesign.Samplingplansaretheretoensure
qualityduringproduction.Thesearetwodistinctlydifferentthings.
LasteditedbyPeterTruitt8thApril2011at11:30AM.
Page1of4 1 2 3 4 >

LowerNavigationBar
TheElsmarCoveBusinessSystemsandStandardsDiscussionForums>NationalandInternationalBusinessSystem
Standards>VariousOtherSpecifications,Standards,andrelatedRequirements
StatisticalTolerancesinGD&T(GeometricDimensioning&Tolerancing)?

Bookmarks
Twitter

Facebook

Reddit

Google

StumbleUpon

Share
PreviousThread|NextThread

VisitorsCurrentlyViewingthisThread:1(0RegisteredVisitors(Members)and1Unregistered
GuestVisitors)

ForumPostingSettings
Youmaynotpostnewthreads
Youmaynotpostreplies
Youmaynotpostattachments
Youmaynotedityourposts
BBcodeisOn
SmiliesareOn
[IMG]codeisOn
HTMLcodeisOff
ForumRules

SimilarDiscussionThreads
Discussion
ThreadTitle

ThreadStarter

Forum

Replies

LastPostor
PollVote

Reporting
GDT
(Geometric
Dimensioning
and
Tolerancing)
Bonus
Tolerance

jfbock

Inspection,Prints(Drawings),Testing,SamplingandRelatedTopics

28th
September
2011
05:43PM

Whereto
findnew
GD&T
(geometric
dimensioning
and
tolerancing)
standards?

jager

VariousOtherSpecifications,Standards,andrelatedRequirements

24thMay
2010
09:35AM

Geometric
Tolerances
International
and/or
European
Geometric
Tolerancing

heyqualitydude

Book,Video,BlogandWebSiteReviewsandRecommendations

18thJuly
2008
06:21PM

Suggesta
source?
CheapOnline
GD&T

http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=47507

4thJuly

4/5

9/3/2016

StatisticalTolerancesinGD&T(GeometricDimensioning&Tolerancing)?
(Geometric
Dimensioning
and
Tolerancing)
Training
Ineeda
copyof
ASME
Y14.5m
1994
Geometric
Dimensioning
and
Tolerancing

rtanner1

TrainingInternal,External,OnlineandDistanceLearning

JohnCraze

VariousOtherSpecifications,Standards,andrelatedRequirements

2007
07:57PM

22nd
March
2005
01:58PM

Thetimenowis10:05PM.AlltimesareGMT4.
YourtimezonecanbechangedinyourUserCP>Options.
ContactUsTheElsmarCoveHomePagePrivacy&DMCA/CopyrightInformationTermsofServiceTop
The Deming PDCA Cycle

ISO 9001 QMS Implementation

FMEA Information

APQP Information

Auditing Information

8-D Problem Solving

Statistics

Error Proofing (Poka Yoke)

Brainstorming

Identifying Waste

Pull Systems

Lead Time Reduction

Planned Maintenance

Quick Setup

Discovering Change

Process Capability - Cp vs. Cpk

Histogram Animation

Process Loop Animation

Taguchi Loss Function

Fishbone / Cause and Effects Animation

Cove Forum Sitemaps

NOTE:Thisforumuses"Cookies"

http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=47507

5/5