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Let's talk about genre: Neil Gaiman and Kazuo Ishiguro in conversation
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looks like a red snake slipping away from him, you suddenly
realise, Oh, this is blood, and youre thinking, This is not how a
reader of fantasy expecting a good swordfight would have expected
this swordfight to go.
KI If I was aware of genre at all during the fight scenes, I was
thinking of samurai films and westerns. In samurai movies mortal
enemies stare at each other for a long time, then theres one flash
of violence and its over.
What do you reckon would have happened if Id been a writer
steeped in fantasy? Would I have had people talking while bashing
swords?
NG Youd definitely have flashing blades. One of the pulp fantasy
genres of the Thirties was Sword and Sorcery: thered be mighty
feuding warriors with large blades, talking, clashing, grunting . . .
you would have got a solid half-page out of it, partly because the
writers were paid by the word.
KI When I first came to Britain at the age of five, one of the things
that shocked me about western culture was the fight scenes in
things like Zorro. I was already steeped in the samurai tradition
where all their skill and experience comes down to a single moment
that separates winner from loser, life from death. The whole
samurai tradition is about that: from pulp manga to art movies by
Kurosawa. That was part of the magic and tension of a swordfight,
as far as I was concerned. Then I saw people like Basil Rathbone
as the Sheriff of Nottingham versus Errol Flynn as Robin Hood and
theyd be having long, extended conversations while clicking their
swords, and the hand that didnt have the sword in it would be
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doing this kind of floppy thing in the air, and the idea seemed to be
to edge your opponent over a precipice while engaging him in some
sort of long, expository conversation about the plot.
NG What were talking about here is jumping from one literaryslash-genre tradition to another.
KI Im very fond of westerns, particularly the later westerns. From
the Fifties onwards, the gunfights become much more meditative
and deliberate. Theres a much bigger silent pause before the
people facing each other draw their guns. The idea of the
one-on-one showdown which doesnt really make much sense
when you think about it in terms of practical combat: its much
better to sneak up behind someone and shoot them in the back
became a genre tradition, that honourable guys, even bad guys,
would prefer to face their enemy that way. The Iliad is fascinating
on this. Its stand-offs are almost bizarre. Theres supposed to be
this huge, wild battle going on on the plains outside Troy, and yet in
this mayhem one warrior faces another and they start a
conversation: they say, Oh, and who are you? Tell me about your
ancestry. They swap stories about their grandfather, and one of
them will say, You know, my dad met your dad when he was
travelling, and he gave him a very nice goblet. So a strange bubble
develops around the two combatants. And then they fight, or
sometimes they discover they rather like each other and decide not
to. Things like the final confrontation between Hector and Achilles
are definitely on the side of Kurosawa, not Errol Flynn.
But let me come back to the theory about pornography and the
musical. So, you liked this idea?
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Let's talk about genre: Neil Gaiman and Kazuo Ishiguro in conversation
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Let's talk about genre: Neil Gaiman and Kazuo Ishiguro in conversation
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Miller and all these people. So from the Nineties onwards, I sensed
that there was a whole generation of people emerging who had a
very different attitude to sci-fi, and that there was a new force of
energy and inspiration because of that. I may have had the crusty
prejudices of somebody of my generation but I felt liberated by
these younger writers. Now I feel fairly free to use almost anything.
People in the sci-fi community were very nice about Never Let Me
Go. And by and large Ive rather enjoyed my inadvertent
trespassing into the fantasy genre, too, although I wasnt even
thinking about The Buried Giant as a fantasy I just wanted to
have ogres in there!
NG What fascinates me is that at the time when Tolkien was writing
The Lord of the Rings it wasnt regarded as in the fantasy genre,
either: the first part was reviewed in the Times by W H Auden. It
was a novel, and that it had ogres and orcs and giant spiders and
magical rings and elves was simply what happened in this novel.
Back then these books tended to be produced in exactly the same
way as you produced The Buried Giant, in that youd written other
things, and now you wanted to do a book in which, for the novel to
work, you needed a dragon breathing magical mist over the world;
you needed it to occur in a post-Arthurian world; you needed your
monsters and your ogres and your pixies. There were people like
Hope Mirrlees who wrote modernist poetry and profoundly
realistic fiction and who was one of the Bloomsbury set, but
produced a wonderful novel called Lud-in-the-Mist and Sylvia
Townsend Warner, who wrote books like Kingdoms of Elfin. And
these were simply accepted as part of mainstream literature.
KI So what happened? Why have we got this kind of wall around
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fantasy element. You dont want people who are too dreamy or who
are imagining things: you want them to accept this is the nitty-gritty
of real life, that theyve just got to get on with it.
Im not suggesting were necessarily being manipulated by some
sinister government or anything; its just there in society. Parents
will naturally discourage children once they get to a certain age
from continuing with the fantasy element in their lives; schools will,
too. It becomes taboo in the society at large.
Maybe the reason its been loosening up, and the stigma is going
away to some extent in the last 25 years or so, is that the nature
of our capitalist enterprise has changed. Were no longer factory
workers, white-collar workers, soldiers, and so on. And with the
advent of blue-sky thinking, the new tech industries that have led
the way in the last two decades seem to require some kind of
imagination. Perhaps people are beginning to think there is some
economic use in actually allowing us to indulge in what was once
deemed childish fantasy. I sound like some sort of Seventies
sociology professor, but I feel theres something in this.
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Let's talk about genre: Neil Gaiman and Kazuo Ishiguro in conversation
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Chinese had decided that they were going to officially now approve
of science fiction and fantasy.
KI That is so interesting.
NG Which actually articulates your theory exactly. Its about the
economy and the workforce of a society in which the act of
imagining is as important as the act of toiling. We have machines
that can toil, but we dont have machines that can imagine.
KI Have you ever done an event at a Microsoft campus or Google?
NG I have. Ive done Google and Ive done Microsoft. Google was
like going to a magical party held by nice people it was a few
years ago; I dont know if theyre still quite as enthusiastic and filled
with sweeties and so forth now. Whereas I turned up on the
Microsoft campus and had half an hour of trying to persuade the
person on the front desk that my name was not something else that
also had an N and a G in it, and I was not here to give a lecture on
cyber-security, and eventually managed to find some people who
were in a room where they had been waiting for me for 45 minutes,
and apparently cellphones didnt work very well, so they hadnt
been able to get our message. It was a strange kind of contrast.
KI But the interesting thing is that you were invited to the Microsoft
campus. Indeed, I was there last month. It is seen to be good for
the company, and I suppose in a wider sense its good for the
economy.
***
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things in the long term is also, I think, in a weird way, worry about
the future.
KI Theres an interesting emotional tension that comes because of
the mismatch of lifespans in your work, because an event that
might be tragic for one of us may not be so for the long-lived being.
Theres an episode of Doctor Who that you wrote, called Doctors
Wife, and one of the most haunting things about that was a
passage where Rory and Amy are lost in some kind of weird time
vortex thing. Rory ages enormously, hes waiting like 70 years,
while Amy is running around on the other side of the door . . . And
she keeps getting visions of him grown really, really old and hes
been waiting for her, whereas for her, its just been like 20 seconds,
and hes saying, Where were you, where were you? Eventually he
turns into just a pile of remains, human remains, and all you see is
an angry, bitter piece of graffiti scrawled up on the wall, maybe in
blood, for all we know. His love has turned to hate, because he just
waited and waited for her.
Recently Ive been interested in the difference between personal
memory and societal memory, and Im tempted almost to personify
these two things. A society, a nation, goes on and on, for centuries:
it can turn Nazi for a while and cause mayhem. But then the next
generation comes along and says, you know, Were not going to
make that mistake again. Whereas an individual who happens to
live through the Nazi era in Germany, thats his whole life.
NG If youre going to try and tell one of those stories, then the urge
comes to start figuring out a way that you can have a conversation
between somebody who can see the big picture, or is the big
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picture, and somebody who is in some way a brick in the wall. One
of the most beautiful things about fiction is that you can have those
conversations if you need them.
KI In those cases being able to resort to fantasy opens things up
enormously. Ive often done this, even if it doesnt look so obvious,
even if there arent things that look like mythical creatures. Creating
an incredibly stuffy English butler in The Remains of the Day, I was
very aware that I was taking something that I recognised to be a
very small, negative set of impulses in myself the fear of getting
hurt in love, or that urge to just say, I dont want to figure out the
political implications or the moral implications of my job, Im just
going to get on with my tiny patch; those kinds of little urges we all
recognise in ourselves taking those and exaggerating them, and
turning them into a kind of monstrous manifestation. The butler
doesnt look like a conventional monster, but I always thought that
he was a kind of monster.
NG I love the idea of Stevens as a monster!
KI Im reminded of something Lettie says in The Ocean at the End
of the Lane: Monsters come in all shapes and sizes. Some of them
are things people are scared of. Some of them are things that look
like things people used to be scared of a long time ago. Sometimes
monsters are things people should be scared of, but they arent. I
thought that last category was really interesting. What are the
monsters that stand for things that we should be afraid of but we
arent?
NG I think its very easy to not be afraid of slow things, and not be
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Let's talk about genre: Neil Gaiman and Kazuo Ishiguro in conversation
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Let's talk about genre: Neil Gaiman and Kazuo Ishiguro in conversation
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Kirby was the artist, but also the creating, driving force behind the
Fantastic Four, Iron Man, Captain America, the Hulk, the X-Men, in
the early Sixties. These guys created characters about whom
people are forever inventing, spinning off, and theres something
very wonderful about that.
KI Yes, there is. Im often asked what my attitude is to film,
theatrical, radio adaptations of my novels. Its very nice to have my
story go out there, and if its in a different form, I want the thing to
mutate slightly. I dont want it to be an exact translation of my novel.
I want it to be slightly different, because in a very vain kind of way,
as a storyteller, I want my story to become like public property, so
that it gains the status where people feel they can actually change it
around and use it to express different things.
NG Yes, the moment that you have a live actor portraying a
character, something exciting is happening; its different, and if its
really happening in front of you live, then, again, youre seeing
something thats new.
So I do love it when people grab my stuff and take it and do things
with it. I love copyright I love the fact that I can feed myself and
feed my children with the stuff I make up. On the other hand,
copyright length right now is life plus 75 years, and I dont know that
I want to be in control of what Ive created for 75 years after Ive
died! I dont know that I want to be feeding my great-grandchildren.
I feel like they should be able to look after themselves, and not
necessarily put limits on what Ive created, if theres something that
would do better in the cultural dialogue. I loved Les Klingers legal
case, establishing that the Conan Doyle Estate had basically been
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work very hard on something that I think people will love, and it just
fades: it never quite finds its people.
KI Even if something doesnt catch fire at the time, you may find it
catches fire further down the line, in 20 years time, or 30 years
time. That has happened, often.
NG Exactly. Theres a beautiful essay by A A Milne where he says,
I want to draw your attention to a completely forgotten book that
none of you have ever heard about that is one of the best books in
the world, and its by Kenneth Grahame. And youve all heard of
him, because he wrote Dream Days and The Golden Age two
popular books but he also wrote a book called The Wind in the
Willows, which none of you have heard of.
KI Aha. Stories are interesting in that way. They sometimes just
emerge, after some mysterious kind of hibernation period. You can
never tell what is going to be one of these long-lived creatures and
what isnt. It would be interesting to think, if stories are creatures,
whether some of them are actually deceitful creatures. Some of
them would be deeply sly and untrustworthy, and some of them
would be very uplifting.
NG There would definitely be bad ones. But how would we know?
How would we ever find out?
The Buried Giant by Kazuo Ishiguro is published Faber &
Faber. Trigger Warning: Short Fictions and Disturbances by Neil
Gaiman is published by Headline.
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