Mythus-L 1996 Log

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Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 15:31:02 +0100

Reply-To: Mythus Fantasy Roleplaying Game List <MYTHUS-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Sender: Mythus Fantasy Roleplaying Game List <MYTHUS-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
From: "Harold Stringer, Ridascreen-Biopharm BV" <biopharm@XS4ALL.NL>
Subject: Happy New Year

Happy New Year!

Best whishes to all of you!!

Happy Mything and lots of interes^ng adventures!

Harold Stringer
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 00:22:46 -0500
From: Jesse <jgris@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Star^ng Points

Okay, let's try to talk about something useful to the game (not that most
of what is said around here isn't interes^ng... :)

I am currently working on the beginnings of another campaign. I have one
going right now, and the HP's are slowly wandering into Necropolis
(oops. If they only knew... :)). Now, for some reason, I'm sick in the
head enough to run another game with dierent players... :)

My problem is, I am absolutely paranoid of cheesy star^ng points ("you
all are siing at a bar when..."). If there's one way to start a
campaign poorly, that is it.

The three players in the new campaign are a cavalier, a druid (nature
priest, yet to be really eshed out), and a mys^c who likes to do body
piercings and takoos...

The campaign is going to be centered around the re-birth of the ancient
great naôn of Aloria, lost to history centuries ago when the magickalreligious devices which provided the so-called "divine right" to rule
were stolen through treason and hatred.

What I'd like to do is have the HP's accidentally come across one of the
thus-named "Shards of Aloria", without really knowing what it is. Once
they discover its true nature, the campaign will be o and ying.

My quesôn/problem is, how do I go about geing a group like these
three together, and doing something which enables them to nd the Shard,
without it being too contrived?

Any suggesôns/ideas/silly thoughts will be greatly greatly greatly

appreciated! And if you were wondering, no, I don't exactly know what
each of the Shards of Aloria are, or exactly how many of them there are.
So if you have ideas about that, I'll take them too! :)

Jesse

-Beavis: "But master, does not your scrotum need kicking?"
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 09:28:36 PST
From: Dave Newton <dirk@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Star^ng Points

>My problem is, I am absolutely paranoid of cheesy star^ng points ("you
>all are siing at a bar when..."). If there's one way to start a
>campaign poorly, that is it.

Some of my best adventures start in bars. Oh, you're talking about in
game... Nevermind. ;)

>The three players in the new campaign are a cavalier, a druid (nature
>priest, yet to be really eshed out), and a mys^c who likes to do body
>piercings and takoos...

Should be fun to work with.

[snip]

>Any suggesôns/ideas/silly thoughts will be greatly greatly greatly
>appreciated! And if you were wondering, no, I don't exactly know what
>each of the Shards of Aloria are, or exactly how many of them there are.
>So if you have ideas about that, I'll take them too! :)

Once you gure out the number and properês of the shards (seven should
keep them running for awhile and not drag the campaign out too much), I
have a good place for them to start - a bazaar. The mys^c might have a
stall there to do takoos for money, and the Druid might be selling
herbs or something. Perhaps the Cavalier has a headache and runs down
to the bazaar for a remedy. You can always nd wierd and interes^ng
"junk" (i.e. the rst shard) at a ea market...

Hope this helps.

BTW, I think we should talk about how you all start your campaigns. This
is oven the most dicult, but crucial, parts of the game.

Dave-
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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 09:33:04 -0500
In-Reply-To: <Chameleon.4.00.960102093734.dirk@dirk.dirk.mindspring.com>

Nice Dave... (about the bars... :)

My other, slightly older campaign started preky well, I think. :)
I had each of the HP's somehow connected to the ruling class in the
Opulant City of Tamerlane. With an interracial city of 15 dierent
Districts, there are going to be plenty of intrigues. :) Anyway, they
were all recruited to help a daughter of one of the "less friendly"
District Heads (they are known as Conclevs). Anyway, this par^cular
Conclev was of a cultural group which is singularly religious and rather
intolerant of anyone else. One of the HP's is from the cultural group
which is a brother to the religious one (their country broke apart in a
civil war about it...). One of the HP's actually was the daughter's
bodyguard.

At any rate, I made that part of the adventure preky easy, just enough
to get them all together. Now, they are taking her to Aegir (I basically
dropped Egypt into my world. Good campaign seing, great history, and I
just took a history class about it... :)

They are not really friends yet--just associates working together. I
have to gure out some simple troubles which will require some teamwork
and may bring them closer together...

That, perhaps, is a more interes^ng thing: how to get a group to stay
together logically. I mean, I was friends with a bunch of people in my
life, but there was no ê to keep us together, so we driv apart. That
would logically happen to a RPing group of HP's too, wouldn't it?
Unless, of course, there was a reason...like being good friends.

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:34:12 -0500
From: Makhew Berry <Anaxamenes@AOL.COM>

Star^ng points are really dicult. The rst thing I nd helps are
player histories and reasons they are siing in the bar. These can be made
up by the GM, the player, or collabora^vely. Are they childhood friends?

Do they work together? Are they da^ng? etc.

The second thing that helps is a common goal or enemy. The campaign I play
in began in the middle of a war, and all the players were thrown together out
of circumstance (this was a ghter heavy campaign). By the ^me the party
had fought a few skirmishes together they had reasons to care about each
other, like the other guy saving them from being killed.

The best start I ever had to a campaign was en^rely accidental. It began
with the player characters (it started out as AD&D un^l we discovered Mythus
and were enlightened) all at a dinner given by Lord Polemarchus, God wanna-be
and ruler of a powerful empire. Being powerful (we started the campaign with
10th level characters), this Lord was asking them to join his organizaôn.
The idea was they would work for him, like many a campaign starts. The odd
part was one player (a cleric) stood up and said "Sorry, I work for only one
master. My god." And walked out. Then the rest of the party did the same
thing. I was completely befuddled. I thought about it, and had Polemarchus
do the only thing a mean and nasty tyrant would do in that situaôn: He had
his assassins kill them. (You're either with Polemarchus, or you're against
him.)

The assassins, of course, failed. But it started the campaign o with a
bang! The rst 3 or 4 sessions consisted of the party runnning through the
city trying to get through or over all 7 city walls with an army of assassins
aver them, and then running through the country side and o into the
wilderness with these assassins plus a brigade of troops and a mage aver
them. (all of them dressed in formal aire, I might add) My co-GM Tim
Francis and I chased them across an inland sea, a couple mountain ranges and
into another country before they lost the pursuit. It was alot of fun to see
high level characters in gowns and heels or silk ^ghts and fancy likle
shoes trying to survive in the woods with nothing more than a dress dagger
and a hair brush. I also think the campaing is a much beker one because of
the way it began.

I've never been quite sure how to MAKE something like this happened, but the
basic scheme might be useful. For your campaign, Jesse, you could have the
three characters be friends to begin with. Have the druid buy one of the
shards from a peddler, not knowing what it is. Then the big bad boys who are
tracking the shards down can burst into the bar, look at the three players
and say "There they are! Kill them!" and the chase begins. They won't even
know why these guys want them dead. You can insert some OP who will tell
them aver a while, some likle old man who is also trying to nd the shards
before the bad guys and prevent their use for evil. What ever the shards
are, they should be powerless singlely, and only slowly accumulate powers as
you gain more and more of them and s^ck them together.

Well, that's my 2 cents.

Mak B.
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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 18:21:18 +0100
From: "Harold Stringer, Ridascreen-Biopharm BV" <biopharm@XS4ALL.NL>

>What I'd like to do is have the HP's accidentally come across one of the
>thus-named "Shards of Aloria", without really knowing what it is. Once
>they discover its true nature, the campaign will be o and ying.
>
>Any suggesôns/ideas/silly thoughts will be greatly greatly greatly
>appreciated! And if you were wondering, no, I don't exactly know what
>each of the Shards of Aloria are, or exactly how many of them there are.
>So if you have ideas about that, I'll take them too! :)

One possibility that was once suggested to me is just to dump the object
with one (or all) of the HP's.

For instance:
HP1 and HP2 by chance happen to walk in the same direcôn along the street
and wait at the corner to cross the street. They see a man running towards
them. He bumps into both of them, presses an object in the hands of HP1 or
HP2, and tells them: "Keep this save, lives depend on it! I will come for
it!" and runs away. Before one of the HP's can react, the man turns the
corner and runs away .
Before the confused HP1 or HP2 can go aver the man, several men appear
running. They look around, and sprint into the street where they see the man
running away. Aver a few seconds, the man turns and points an object at
those who follow him. Electricity ashes, two of the men are hit and fall
to the ground. The remaining men spread, poin^ng similar objects at the
man. Fire streaks towards the man, incinera^ng him on the spot. The men
collect the remains, and disappear into an alley.

In the evening, one/each of the HP's hears knocking on his door.....

Harold
_______________________________________________________________________

Work: Private:
Ridascreen-Biopharm BV Harold Stringer
Dept. Clinical Diagnos^cs Jimi Hendrixstraat 42
dr.ing. H.A.R. Stringer 1311 HZ Almere
Staônsplein 40 The Netherlands
1315 KT Almere Tel/Fax +31 - (0)36 53 64 798
The Netherlands
Tel +31 - (0)36 53 43 445
Fax +31 - (0)36 53 47 265
E-mail biopharm@xs4all.nl

(C) dr. ing. H.A.R. Stringer, 1996
_______________________________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 00:40:47 -0500
Subject: Creature: Servitor Imp

Hi. Just to prove that I'm produc^ve (mainly for my own benet! :),
here is creature.

Borrowed from Talislanta (Thystram's Collectanea, go get it if you can),
the Servitor Imp is a wonderful, decep^vely amusing mascot/familiar for
your best enemy mage. It's a cool creature. :)

Oh, since I'm just copying this from my notes, it's not in great Mythus
form. Use it as you will. If you do get it looking preky, send me a
copy, okay? Dan--feel free to add this to the Phaeree Beasâry! :)

Servitor Imp

Phaeree, goblin, summoned thing.

M: 70 (Cunning!) P: 30 S: 30
MR: 35 MM: 25 PM: 15 PN: 15 Same break down as P.
Cap/Pow/Spd: 5 each
(PXSpd's are x4 (20) due to small size)

Important K/S Area:
Do Whatever: 20-25.
(Yes, I made this up. Basically, whatever he wants to do, he can do with
25 STEEP. It's magick. It doesn't gure to be around long. If you
plan on keeping the likle piece of crap around, you'd probably want to
give it some more info... :)

Dodge Factor: Since it's so damn small and dar^ng, all akacks against
it are made at Dicult DR.

Weapon BAC ATK Init DT Dam
Small Dagger 50 2 -18 P 1D3 + Poison (see below)
(if that...many sorcerors wouldn't trust the imp with a weapon!)

Armor P C B F Ch S E Mag.
Hide 40 40 40 40 40 30 60 40
*Note that the Imp has NO VITAL PARTS. Therefore, no Strike Locaôn
roll is necessary--all damage is Non-Vital.

Commentary:
A favorite plaything for more powerful demons and sorcerors, the

Servitor is a low, low, beast on the totem pole. In fact, some clumps of
dirt are higher. Incredibly exible due to the total lack of internal
structure, the Imp is more like a giant blob of clay, or beker yet,
silly puky. This physical nature makes it very tough to damage. In
fact, they are oven used by demons as punching bags and stress-relief
devices.
They can be nasty however. They look hilarious, and their an^cs
oven lull their...uh...targets into a false sense of security. When
they are trusted with a weapon, it is usually a small dagger, laced with
a poison of some sort: usually Delerium or some sort of Pain (making the
vic^m unable to act in the next 1D10 BT's).
My use of this likle buddy came with a par^cularly vile
villain. His Imp goofed around for a few moments, and lev the HP's
looking helplessly at each other and sîng giggles. Then the Black
Wizard let them have it...
In the end, it was par^cularly amusing watching a merchant HP
who caught the thing trying to jam its rubbery body into a large bokle,
in order to sell it for a large prot (it got away).

Comments, etc., are expected. :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 22:59:30 PST
From: "< Daniel Pickek>" <Sprrwhwk@SPARROWHAWK.WANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Creature: Servitor Imp

Here is the more or less cleaned up version... I do have some suggesôns. First more
compleate informaôn. Becareful of game play, what I mean by this is the average armor
of 40 the DR hit on the to hit roll, these are great, but don't make them too hard to
hit and kill, why 40 for armor and Non-Vital only? Your wriing is great, but could you
keep the crikers comentary more on the serious side. :) Also this thing looks like it
needs some POWERS, I could be wrong... :)

Now that I;ve hounded you, now for the good part, I like the criker, I plan on using
one..., and I'm using your suggesôn about the Author. It will be a hidden text line so
that it will not show when prin^ng. BTW are the developers will have there names in the
credits...

Later Daniel.

Imp, Servitor
Author: Jesse <jgris@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Idenêr: Minor demon
Habitat: Any
Size: 0.25 x Human-sized
Number Appearing: 1d3
Modes & Rates of Movement:
Walk: 60 yds/BT
Run: 180 yds/BT
Fly: 240 yds/BT
Iniâ^ve Modiers: Human Standard
Outstanding K/S Areas/Sub-Areas & STEEP:
Up to 25 STEEP in 1d6 K/S Areas.
Joss Factors: 0
Dodging/Avoidance: */16, 10, 10
Since it's so damn small and dar^ng, all akacks against it are made at Dicult DR.
Akrac^veness: 0
Extreme Akrac^veness (dazing, "easy"/eeing, "easy")
Average Armor Protecôn: 40
Quirks: Nil
Akacks BAC Type Base Bonus
Small Dagger 50 2 - 12 P 1D3+Poison*

* if that...many sorcerors wouldn't trust the imp with a weapon!
Powers:
Sta^s^cal Detail:
Base Scheme (+/- 1D3):
M: 70 EL: 32 P: 30 WL: 75 CL: 90 S: 30 EL:
40
MM: 35 MR: 25 PM: 15 PN: 15 SM: 15 SP:
15
MMCap: 15 MRCap: 13 PMCap: 5 PNCap: 5 SMCap: 5 SPCap:
5
MMPow: 10 MRPow: 6 PMPow: 5 PNPow: 5 SMPow: 5 SPPow:
5
MMSpd: 10 MRSpd: 6 PMSpd: 5* PNSpd: 5* SMSpd: 5 SPSpd:
5
Armor Scheme:
Type Pierce Cut Blunt Fire Chem Stun Elec.
Hide** 40 40 40 40 40 30 60

* Note that the Imp has NO VITAL PARTS. Therefore, no Strike Locaôn roll is
necessary--all damage is Non-Vital.
** The hide of the imp in considered to be heka engendered un^l then imp is
killed.
Commentary & Descripôn:
A favorite plaything for more powerful demons and sorcerors, the Servitor is a low, low,
beast on the totem pole. In fact, some clumps of dirt are higher. Incredibly exible
due to the total lack of internal structure, the Imp is more like a giant blob of clay,
or beker yet, silly puky. This physical nature makes it very tough to damage. In
fact, they are oven used by demons as punching bags and stress-relief devices.
They can be nasty however. They look hilarious, and their an^cs oven lull
their...uh...targets into a false sense of security. When they are trusted with a
weapon, it is usually a small dagger, laced with a poison of some sort: usually Delerium
or some sort of Pain (making the vic^m unable to act in the next 1D10 BT's).
My use of this likle buddy came with a par^cularly vile villain. His Imp goofed
around for a few moments, and lev the HP's looking helplessly at each other and
sîng giggles. Then the Black Wizard let them have it...
In the end, it was par^cularly amusing watching a merchant HP who caught the thing
trying to jam its rubbery body into a large bokle, in order to sell it for a large
prot (it got away).

------------------------------------Name: Daniel Pickek
E-mail: Sprrwhwk@Sparrowhawk.wanet.net
Date: 01/04/96
Time: 22:59:30
------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:22:52 -0500
From: Richard Crook <Kelthar@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Creature: Servitor Imp

Since a pair of suckers ( ;-)) actually posted a criker I'll go ahead and
throw in my two bits.

1) Interes^ng idea.

2) Akrac^veness: If this thing is "hilarious" and lulls potenâl vic^ms
into a false sence of security, I don't think an akrac^veness level that
requires dazing and eeing rolls is appropriate.

3) Armor: Based on the descripôn of the criker I think I'd leave armor
at 0. This thing is not going to have an armor like funcôn, par^cularly
at this level. Since the intent is to make it rela^vely hard to damage but
to keep the crikers idiosyncrasies in context, I'd do something along the
following lines:
a) Due to the extremely malleable form of the servitor (?) imp, all akacks
against this beasê do a maximum of one point of damage (or perhaps Weapon
Points, or perhaps magickal BAC bonus).

4) Given the nature of the original post, I'd leave STrait at 0. MTrait was
listed as cunning, 70 seems a bit high for cunning, but whatever works.

5) To what does the ** note below the akack chart refer??

6) Add a phobia to being conned in a handball court? Typical major demon
stress relief?

Hope someone nds this input usefull (or useless).

Later.

Rick Crook
kelthar@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 13:07:56 -0800
From: Steven Gullerud <gullerud@LELAND.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: K/S vs K/S rolls
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.951228120442.14189C-100000@orichalc.acsu.bualo.edu> from "Jesse" at
Dec 28,
95 12:10:22 pm

> Steve Gullerud->
> Did you ever get around to messing with the K/S vs. K/S table? I don't
> par^cularly like it, and you were talking about it earlier.
>
> What I've done recently is just to assign DR's to the contestants (most
> oven they are equal...) and have each roll naturally. I don't really
> see the point in having the DR worsen just because one contestant is
> higher than the other. If you look at it, the likelihood of a success
> really just depends on your STEEP, and when one guy has a much higher
> STEEP than the other, he'll succeed more oven, and at higher diculês.
>

Sorry for the delay Jesse, but you caught me on vacaôn -- playing Mythus
among other things. :)

I think the reason the K/S vs. K/S table gave worse DRs for a lower
STEEP was that, beyond a certain skill dierence, there really should
be no quesôn of victory in a fair contest. Take chess for example.
An expert to master level player with a 50 STEEP should almost always
defeat a player with a 25 STEEP (perhaps equal to one who knows a
number of opening move variaôns, general strategies, and otherwise
generally competent). The table as presented would guarantee victory for
the expert player, while a straight DR comparison might give the lesser
chess player a victory some 15% of the ^me.

That being said, I don't really care for the table given in the Mythus rules
for a number of reasons. First, victory is virtually guaranteed for the
persona with STEEP only 5 greater than that of an opponent. Second,
the table is rather hard to remember, IHMO.

Enough blathering. Here is a variant I came up with. It hasn't been
playtested, so I don't know if it works as well as I might wish.

Opponents must roll vs their respec^ve STEEPs and compare DRs. If
both roll the same DR, or both roll worse than Easy, then they
con^nue rolling un^l the ê is broken. The margin of victory is
determined by the dierence in DRs.

When STEEPs are at dierent levels, the character with the lower STEEP
must consult the following table and apply a DR penalty to the
result.

STEEP lower by: modier to DR

5 to 10 -1
11 to 20 -2
21 to 30 -3
31 or more -4

For instance, a character with a 21 STEEP in a contest against one with
a STEEP of 44, a roll of 10 with a -3 penalty goes from 'Dicult' to
'Easy' for comparison purposes.

Steven
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 00:57:43 -0800
From: Chris Calvert <calvert@UCLA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Armor and Heka use

At 04:58 AM 12/26/95 -0500, you wrote:
>Those of you on the list that are running a Mythus campaign; do you allow
>your heka users to wear armor?
>
>George Goins

I do with limitaôns.
First, the hands must be completely free and BARE. This is
essenâl for the manipulaôn of magickal energy(in my campaign).
Second, because the body is involved in spellcas^ng to some
extent(again, in my campaign seing), the armor must not be restric^ve to
moôn.
Penalês will accrue if the vision is blocked parâlly by a helm
when akemp^ng to target spell eects visually.
Also, because spells typically use incantaôns/trigger words etc.,
the jaw must be free to move and the caster must be able to ar^culate
CLEARLY and with FINE and SUBTLE dis^ncôns-impossible when gagged,
dicult when wearing certain helms.

Otherwise, I have no armor restricôns for heka users(I toyed with
a ban on all ferrous metals for Heka users(at least FPs), but ruled that out
as too restric^ve-though I s^ll consider it occasionally).

Mike Conard

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 20:37:17 -0500
Reply-To: Snead Ryan W <rwsnea@birds.wm.edu>
From: Snead Ryan W <rwsnea@BIRDS.WM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Happy new year
In-Reply-To: <199512311644.RAA25349@ash.powertech.no>

On Sun, 31 Dec 1995, Frode Jacobsen wrote:

[snip]
> And do you have any ideas about what to do with heka-users, we chose to
> s^ck with the Warhammer rules, deciding only a full-pracôner could be a
> bakle-mage?
[snip]
What specically were you planning on doing with them? I am not really
familiar with Warhammer, although I have heard that it tends to be a
high-powered game. I can only assume that the reason you wouldn't want
to use less than a FP dweomercraever or priestcraever is because you
are concerned about non-FPs being too low-powered for your campaign
seing (an idea that will send many of our list members heads
spinning). IMHO, that is one of the best things about Mythus, its
versa^lity.
If your campaign world only allows for slow development of magick, you can
make cas^ng grades every 15 or 20 STEEP instead of every 10 (with similar
modicaôns for spell ranges/eects). If low-powered personnas are
what you crave, half the STEEPs (for all k/s, it's only fair). Aver
all, even the EGS doesn't permit the classical star^ng magic user to
toss reballs at a whim or the star^ng combat monster --I mean-ghter to double specialize in dagger, broadsword, and two-handed
bakle-axe.
But I digest (especially since I just had supper), the quesôn at hand
is how to "soup up" your personnas so that a mage will be useful in a
high-powered combat seing (involving troop movements and bakle
formaôns perhaps?). As I see it, there are two dierent types of
power in magickal operaôns for Dangerous Journeys systems, and either
one is extremely open to adaptaôn. These two powers oven go hand in
hand; however, it is not impossible to limit one without seriously
inhibi^ng the other. The two types of power are represented by Heka and
Cas^ng grades. Heka power is the raw force of performing magick.
Without it, or enough of it, magick cannot exist. And obviously, the
more you have of it, the more that you have potenâl to do. Cas^ng
grades represent knowledge, the wisdom of the ages which makes the
preparaôn and u^lizaôn of the raw power which heka provides
possible. Without sucient knowledge, even a mine of Hekalite (a
mineral which contains LOTS of Heka) the size of a small planet will only
allow you to perform the simplest of parlor tricks.

First, how do you gain more raw power.
1. The simplest and most obvious way of doing this is to make all of your
magick users FP dweomercravers or priestcraevers. Stand up and just ignore
a rule because it doesn't t the world view of your campaign. You can
explain it by saying that only those with the potenâl of full prac^ce are
ever trained in your world because anyone with less raw talent wouldn't
make it on the bakleeld. Then add this Grade I Cas^ng to everyone's
list under their primary cas^ng area (Dweomercraev or Priestcraev,
General)

Detect Full Prac^ce Spell
Time:Instantaneous Other Heka Costs: Nil
Range:Caster R&D: Nil
Distance:Touch Other: Nil
E/F/M: This simple spell permits the caster to know instantly whether
an individual is of Full Prac^ce potenâl to be a Dweomercraever or
Priestcraever. The caster need not be in contact with the individual
for the en^re ^me indicated, they must merely touch the subject in the
combat turn when the Cas^ng is scheduled to go o. If akemp^ng to
use this on an unwilling subject, a Combat HTH, Non-Lethal roll must be
made to see if the caster is able to touch the subject. Note that the
eect of this cas^ng provides a simple "yes" or "no" answer, and does
not provide a blurred result or otherwise tell the caster anything about
the power of the individual tested. Subjects with parâl prac^ce
potenâl (if they exist) will result in a "no" answer when this
dweomer is cast on them. Cas^ngs may be used to mask the subject of this
dweomer so as to provide false informaôn. In this case, consult the cas^ng
in quesôn to determine the results (e.g. make up your own.)

Note: Reliance on this cas^ng may actually give a dis^nct advantage to
"hedge wizards" as the silent magick-users in a campaign world. Of
course, this should be counter-balanced with a certain disdain among the
full prac^ce overclass of the supers^ôus and low magick. Such
prac^ce may even be outlawed if appropriate. In any case, the knowledge
of hege wizardry would likely be a closely guarded secret, and its
cas^ngs would either not be well known or be disguised as supers^ôus
folklore.

2. If this type of scenario doesn't sit well with you, there are a number
of ways to increase the raw power available to magickal personnas who do
not have full prac^ce (or even those who do). On pages 5-6 of Mythus
Magick, the Demographics of Heka Generaôn and Capacity. These numbers
are generated for the world of Aerth and similar campaign worlds. Note
that the intrinsic personal store of Heka (Trait-generated Heka) is
available to all HPs (as they are assumed to be able to channel all three
types of Heka). Play with the numbers to suit your campaign world if you
don't think they t. Another way to increase a specically non-FP
personna's Heka stores is through a Vow of Service (holy chorus) or Pact
with Evil (dark and ominous laughter). These can be found on pages 11-12
in Mythus Magick. Finally, you can allow an individual to u^lize
general or specic Heka Reservoirs and Glyphs as outlined on pages 15-17
of MM.

Now to the second quesôn: increasing knowledge. Here there are also
two answers (which I can think of) to the problem. The rst one is
simple to state but dicult to implement. Rewrite the magick system.
take the cas^ngs available and organize them into Cas^ng grades that
make more sense to you. This could lead to some serious unbalancing, but
good sense and proper edi^ng should be your sword and standard when
bakling rules modicaôns anyway. I can think of one list member who
has rewriken the magick system to suit the needs of his campaign world,
crea^ng the K/S area of General Wizardry among others. Secondly, you
can play with the sta^s^cs of the personas or campaign world
themselves. This could mean increasing the Base STEEP given to personas
in their primary magickal k/s areas, opening the enhanced steep opôn to
Heka-genera^ng k/s areas, decreasing the STEEP distance between cas^ng
grades from 10 STEEP to 5, or some combinaôn of these soluôns.

I guess the point I am trying to make with all of this is that you
shouldn't worry about trying to make minor rules modicaôns to the
system if it isn't mee^ng the needs of your genre. Aver all, my
feelings won't be hurt. Its just as much your system as it is mine and
T$R doesn't give a rat's nose about what we're doing as long as we don't
start marke^ng it or reprin^ng large volumes of copyrighted text.

That's all fer now!!
--Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu

P.S. The suggested rules modicaôns above are based upon a familiarity
with the Dangerous Journeys system, past suggesôns from others on the
list, and well...not much else. If anyone actually USES these
suggesôns, I would be interested to hear how they work/don't work in a
game seing. Of course, I have seen Vows of Service and Trait Heka work
very well, and others on the list have used Heka Reservoirs to advantage
in campaigns.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 00:01:27 -0600
From: Kenny Hill <khill@MONARCH.PAPILLION.NE.US>
Subject: Few quesôns..

Hello all! I've a few quesôns, hoping someone would help? How
in the world does Psychogenics work!?!?!?!? I've reread the manual
billions of ^mes and came clueless.. :) Also where are the vp&WWW
sites for mythus, I forgot them all (oops!)
When does Dangerous Ideas #6 come out? Love that stu :). Any
word from TSR if theyre just gonig to hitch mythus permanently or maybe
have some shed of light. Personally they should stash AD&D- bastards.
Heh.
I'm star^ng to have ruts on making characters. They're all
star^ng to feel like I've played it all before, any ideas on how I can
keep my characters spicy? :) Who is willing to sell Necropolis and how
much? I believe thats the only one I dont have yet... Thanx alot happy gaming!
-ken
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:05:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Few quesôns..
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960107235706.19715A-100000@monarch.papillion.ne.us>

On Mon, 8 Jan 1996, Kenny Hill wrote:

> Hello all! I've a few quesôns, hoping someone would help? How
> in the world does Psychogenics work!?!?!?!? I've reread the manual
What are your specic quesôns about Psychogenics? It is admikedly an
unnished part of the Dangerous Journeys system (since it wasn't really
supposed to play a big role in the Mythus genre anyway). The Psychogenics
rules were, I believe, meant to be expanded upon with the publicaôn of
the Unhallwed genre, a modern gothic horror genre (Note that this was NOT
another copy of the White Puppy 'This is an RPG. There are no real rules
game.'). Unfortunately, Unhallowed was stopped literallly as it was about
to be typeset for prin^ng, so it is unlikely that we will ever see it (at
least legally that is....).

> billions of ^mes and came clueless.. :) Also where are the vp&WWW
> sites for mythus, I forgot them all (oops!)
The only FTP/gopher site which carries Mythus stu is cerebus.acusd.edu .
As for WWW sites, I can never remember those mile-long names, but webcrawler
will bring up Jag's Lair as a hit under Mythus, and I usually just web out
to where I want to go from there. My JM's Mythus page has some interes^ng
stu on Pantheons (mostly AEropean), and there's also Atlantlan Pantheon
info out on the Net but not there. Mike's Mythus page is:
hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus

It also contains a number of links to Mythus pages across the world (but
most are located in modern Vaargard. ;-)

> When does Dangerous Ideas #6 come out? Love that stu :). Any
Dunno. It is good stu though.

> word from TSR if theyre just gonig to hitch mythus permanently or maybe
> have some shed of light. Personally they should stash AD&D- bastards.
> Heh.
Totally $implis^c Rubbish has no plans to include any Dangerous Journeys
modules or genres in its product lines over the next few years. Yes,
they're so burocrazed that they plan their product lines years in advance.
Sad, isn't it. However, a number of their new suckulents for EGS (Evil
Game System or Ex-Gygax System) apparently allow one to play the game
as a skill-based system, allows Priests to cast some Mage Spells, and Mages
to cast some Priest Spells. Maybe those people have learned something aver
ea^ng the best FRPG since Chainmail. Personally, I think that they keep
the Mythus manuscripts in a sealed vault and use it for research into an
improved micro-processor --I mean-- RPG. Sorry, I watched T2 las night. ;-)

> I'm star^ng to have ruts on making characters. They're all
> star^ng to feel like I've played it all before, any ideas on how I can
> keep my characters spicy? :)
Well, you could try some hot tomales or ginseng root. Seriously, one of the
richest resources in the Mythus genre is the magick system, but some of my
favorite non-magickal k/s areas are Juggling and Yoga. For a while, my
personnas weren't complete without taking one of these k/s areas as a bonus.
Tell us what you'd like to see in your Heroic Personas, and maybe we can help
you get there from here.

> Who is willing to sell Necropolis and how
> much? I believe thats the only one I dont have yet... Thanx alot > happy gaming!
I think there's a mail order gaming store in Canada which s^ll has stores
of Mythus stu on their used books list. Of course, I've never had a
problem nding the stu myself. Just so you have a checklist. . .

0) Mythus Prime
1) Mythus
2) Mythus Magick
3) Epic of Aerth
4) Necropolis
5) Mythus (Aerth) Beasâry
"6)" Mythus (Phaeree) Beasâry ][
(forthcoming free "publicaôn" from Net Bandits)

There are also a number of Mythic Masters Magazines out there, but nding
one of these is kind of like winning the lokery.

**Note: All the actual published stu is copyrighted by TSR(c)
as are many names associated with the system up to and possibly
incliding such words as Dice(c), Fantasy(c), Game(c), and &(c).
Don't even THINK about them without a copyright symbol(c)!

Have a nice day ci^zen! :-)

--Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:43:46 PST
Subject: Few Responses...

Regarding Psychogenics:

The rules were nished for Psychogenics before I started working with Gary
(since, unknown to many, Unhallowed was at drav stage before the work on
Mythus was begun). I cropped most of it out and we wrote the magick system to
replace it in a Heka-powered (as opposed to Vril-based) system. The rules
were good but dierent.

Please don't ask me to talk about Psychogenics, 'cause I don't have the ^me
or paênce to dig up a dead system, much less re-learn it to teach you.

>Totally $implis^c Rubbish has no plans to include any Dangerous Journeys
>modules or genres in its product lines over the next few years. Yes,
>they're so burocrazed that they plan their product lines years in advance.
>Sad, isn't it. However, a number of their new suckulents for EGS (Evil
>Game System or Ex-Gygax System) apparently allow one to play the game
>as a skill-based system, allows Priests to cast some Mage Spells, and Mages
>to cast some Priest Spells. Maybe those people have learned something aver
>ea^ng the best FRPG since Chainmail. Personally, I think that they keep
>the Mythus manuscripts in a sealed vault and use it for research into an
>improved micro-processor --I mean-- RPG. Sorry, I watched T2 las night. ;-)

It's good to see there are others out there with an aitude about T$R. But
my posiôn is preky well-known, so I'll skip it. Quite interes^ng to hear
about what is happening to GDW, and White Wolf, and all these other companies
in the industry, especially since they don't deserve the hard ^mes.

>> I'm star^ng to have ruts on making characters. They're all
>> star^ng to feel like I've played it all before, any ideas on how I can
>> keep my characters spicy? :)

One of my favorite characters was a guy who was a blind butler assassin. He
had Combat, Special Abiliês (Blind Figh^ng or somesuch), and he always
akacked in pitch darkness. Hilarious, he was.

Mix up the K/S Areas. Come up with a special background, and go with it.

>> Who is willing to sell Necropolis and how

Good luck. I just gave my last spare copy to a dear friend. I don't have
anything lev but my gaming set and my (s^ll shrink-wrapped) boxed set.

But, as the Terminator said, "I have detailed les..." [one of my fave
movies, BTW]

Dave=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:46:45 -0500
From: Larry Barry <barry@CGS.C4.GMEDS.COM>
Subject: Re: Few Responses...

>
> >> Who is willing to sell Necropolis and how

The Rider's Hobby shop here in Michigan has a Necropolis copy
for sale. If you would like their phone number, let me know.

Larry

=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+
There are men too gentle to live among wolves : barry@cgs.c4.gmeds.com
-- a poem by James Kavanaugh : Larry Barry
=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-My Opinions are Mine and Mine Alone-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 15:10:34 -0500

I s^ll see Necropolis in our local stores (North San Diego County), so it is
s^ll out there. If it becomes a real problem let me know, maybe we can work
something out.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 23:09:34 -0500
Subject: Teaching K/S's

Sorry about D.I. 6. I can't really complain about not having ^me to do
it since I have more players than I know what to do with (this is, I
think, the greatest problem to have! :)), and I'm trying to run two
Mythus campaigns at the same ^me. At any rate, I'll get there. I just
have to do it... (discipline, dammit!)

Anyway, my quesôn:

Has anyone out there had one HP try to teach another a K/S? Here is my
situaôn...

A player of mine has a favorite Conjuror, who has become (over a couple
years) very accomplished. I believe his STEEP is now 72. (THis is aver
star^ng with my reducôn of power rules) He is also fairly steeped in
various other magick-related K/S Areas.

At any rate, people in power are star^ng to hear about him, a
consequence of being one of the more skilled Conjurors around. I decided
that once one's ability passes the 65-70 range, established powers take
no^ce. They monitor up-and-comers to make sure they are...responsible.

So, to make his life more interes^ng, he was hired by a compara^vely
powerful Aegirian to teach his daughter the ne arts of Western
Conjuraôn. I think it caught him by surprise. But, since the HP is an
egomaniac, and this plays right up to his inated head, he just had to
take the job.

The tough part is, how shall I determine her rate of learning? I know I
could use some of the advancement in slow ^mes rules from Mythus, but I
don't know that this is sa^sfactory. The fact is, she (an OP, by the
way) is learning almost every day. She has basically signed on to be his
slave (another ego boost!). Therefore, while he wanders the earth and
gets into trouble, she gets to see plenty of acôn, while studying on
the side.

Has anyone done this sort of thing before??

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 07:20:09 -0600
From: Dan T Williamson <dtw@IDM.COM>
Subject: Re: Teaching K/S's
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960108230221.21557A-100000@destrier.acsu.bualo.edu> from "Jesse" at
Jan 8,
96 11:09:34 pm

Thus spake Jesse
> Sorry about D.I. 6. I can't really complain about not having ^me to do
> it since I have more players than I know what to do with (this is, I
> think, the greatest problem to have! :)), and I'm trying to run two
> Mythus campaigns at the same ^me. At any rate, I'll get there. I just
> have to do it... (discipline, dammit!)

Get onto it!

> Has anyone out there had one HP try to teach another a K/S? Here is my
> situaôn...

Not yet, though they occasionally threaten such a thing.

> The tough part is, how shall I determine her rate of learning? I know I
> could use some of the advancement in slow ^mes rules from Mythus, but I
> don't know that this is sa^sfactory. The fact is, she (an OP, by the
> way) is learning almost every day. She has basically signed on to be his
> slave (another ego boost!). Therefore, while he wanders the earth and
> gets into trouble, she gets to see plenty of acôn, while studying on
> the side.

I would use the "Slow ^mes rules" from Mythus that you speak of. My only
other comment would be that if she is going on adventures she should get
AP/G's to use to advance her training in addiôn.

However! I would make two comments. First of all why the smeg does her
father allow her to travel all over the place "geing into trouble"?
I would think that a stable learning environment would be thought more
condusive to learning. Basically the HP should get paid prodigiously for
his services but should be taken out of adventuring (most of the ^me) while
he trains her. And if she is studying on the side you should only use the
AP/G's to advance her rate of learning as most of the ^me is spent doing
other things than learning conjuraôn. In this case I might allow her to
spend the AP/G's on Conjuraôn at a discount to represent the added benet
of having a tutor.

Dan.

-"You never know where the day will take you. You may nd yourself
halfway around the world in the shark-infested waters of true-tolife living. Or you may nd yourself going down to the store for
a lozenge. You can't know, can you? No! You goka ride that wave, you
goka suck that lozenge!" The Tick.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 10:06:45 -0500
From: Alex Johnson <SDTroll@AOL.COM>

Which Riders in Michigan? Which city?

Thanks.
SD Troll
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 10:34:15 -0500
In-Reply-To: <m0tZe99-000AFDC@Uucp1.mcs.net>

Dan-
I don't blame you for wondering why someone would let the student travel
with the teacher. There is a reason, though. You see, our Conjuror
teacher has certain abiliês that the less-than-public government
organizaôns desire. He is easily the most powerful HP (just because
the player kept his old one when everyone else started anew). And, for
the current mission, a shadowy opera^ve who the girl's father trusts
completely is with them. So...of course there is nothing to worry about!
:) (of course, this is what the shadowy fellow told him. If Daddy knew
the truth...)

I found a possible correlaôn to my problem: at the beginning of
Necropolis, the HP's travel to Farnoc and Aartuat on camels. There, is
makes them roll some dice, and then they gain some STEEP (up to like 6
points if they fall a lot) when they reach Aartuat.

My plan has been to make the Conjuror roll against his STEEP, and his
result determines how much the girl can learn. If it was a player HP,
I'd make him roll vs. MMPow to learn the stu, but since she isn't, I am
just leing her learn (I may make that a quirk: total memory).

All I can say is, I can't wait to see the players squirm when things like
demoncrocs akack and she's there... :)

Jesse (a torturous JM)

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 10:45:15 -0600
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960109102726.11799A-100000@destrier.acsu.bualo.edu> from "Jesse" at
Jan 9,
96 10:34:15 am

Thus spake Jesse
>
> I don't blame you for wondering why someone would let the student travel
> with the teacher. There is a reason, though. You see, our Conjuror
> teacher has certain abiliês that the less-than-public government
> organizaôns desire. He is easily the most powerful HP (just because
> the player kept his old one when everyone else started anew). And, for
> the current mission, a shadowy opera^ve who the girl's father trusts
> completely is with them. So...of course there is nothing to worry about!
> :) (of course, this is what the shadowy fellow told him. If Daddy knew
> the truth...)

I guess I was not so much worried about her savey as I was worried that
all of her father's hard earned money is being wasted in substandard
training. :)

> My plan has been to make the Conjuror roll against his STEEP, and his
> result determines how much the girl can learn. If it was a player HP,
> I'd make him roll vs. MMPow to learn the stu, but since she isn't, I am
> just leing her learn (I may make that a quirk: total memory).

(Seing aside the fact that if you are riding a camel you are prac^cing
riding a camel for 8 hours a day (or more)) Does he have any teaching
type K/S Areas? If he does I would use that as the base and use Conjuraôn
as simply an assis^ng K/S Area. If he does not I would s^ll do the same
thing, only it will be much harder because he has no teaching experience.
Plus because the environment is not exactly condusive to learning I'd make
the task at least dicult (x0.5) if not worse. Also does the student have
the Occul^sm or Mys^cism K/S Area? If not the whole exercise is moot, as
the rules state that you need one of those to learn a new Heka Genera^ng
K/S Area. :) OR, he'll have to teach her that FIRST, then struggle through
Conjuraôn.

Just call me Obstrucônist. I don't mind. :)

Dan.
(Apparently back from a long period of lurking)

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 11:38:14 -0500
In-Reply-To: <m0tZhHS-000AFMC@Uucp1.mcs.net>

On Tue, 9 Jan 1996, Dan T Williamson wrote:

> Thus spake Jesse
>
> (Seing aside the fact that if you are riding a camel you are prac^cing
> riding a camel for 8 hours a day (or more)) Does he have any teaching
> type K/S Areas?
Actually, I was about to say, but someone beat me to it. Check out the
rules for the Educaôn K/S. I don't recall the specics, but there might
be some rules in there to help you out. Also, remember that HPs learning
a new Heka genera^ng K/S are required to spend 20 APs as a "start-up" fee
before spending the rst AP on STEEP. I would not expect it to be any
easier for your OP, although she might be able to gain an AP for a couple
of weeks of intensive study.
> If he does I would use that as the base and use Conjuraôn
> as simply an assis^ng K/S Area. If he does not I would s^ll do the same
> thing, only it will be much harder because he has no teaching experience.
> Plus because the environment is not exactly condusive to learning I'd make
> the task at least dicult (x0.5) if not worse.
This sounds like a good idea to me. I'm not so rigid a thinker that I
believe that no Educaôn STEEP means that you can never teach anyone
anything.

> Also does the student have
> the Occul^sm or Mys^cism K/S Area? If not the whole exercise is moot, as
> the rules state that you need one of those to learn a new Heka Genera^ng
> K/S Area. :) OR, he'll have to teach her that FIRST, then struggle through
> Conjuraôn.
That reminds me of an old saying. How can you gain a Heka-genera^ng K/S
without Occul^sm or Mys^cism, and how can you gain Occul^sm or
Mys^cism without them being a Heka-genera^ng K/S? Actually, I would
argue that for this reason, so long as the teacher has Occul^sm or
Mys^cism that the student should not be required to have it. These K/S
should be required only for self-study.

Why are these K/S required for learning a new Heka-genera^ng K/S anyway?
(and because it says so in the rules is not a valid answer.)

--Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 16:42:08 -0500
In-Reply-To: <m0tZhHS-000AFMC@Uucp1.mcs.net>

All right, quit thinking so hard... :)

> Thus spake Jesse

Darn right I did. And don't you forget it... :)

> I guess I was not so much worried about her savey as I was worried that
> all of her father's hard earned money is being wasted in substandard
> training. :)

Menkare (or Men-ka-re), the Dad, isn't too worried about money. He also
believes that on-the-job training is useful. Besides, this was an
emergency mission. Someone (apparently from the cult of Set) just
assassinated Pharoah Thutmose XI's son on his Day of Ascendancy.
Needless to say, all the royal bodyguards were drawn and quartered (or
eighth'ed). The Empire is in turmoil. It is fairly important to those
involved... :)

> (Seing aside the fact that if you are riding a camel you are prac^cing
> riding a camel for 8 hours a day (or more)) Does he have any teaching
> type K/S Areas? If he does I would use that as the base and use Conjuraôn
> as simply an assis^ng K/S Area. If he does not I would s^ll do the same
> thing, only it will be much harder because he has no teaching experience.
> Plus because the environment is not exactly condusive to learning I'd make
> the task at least dicult (x0.5) if not worse. Also does the student have

Well, I'm not exactly making it easy... SHe is being involved in the
process, essenâlly by helping him do the easy things: sor^ng out
Materia, carrying the books, dus^ng o the candles, that sort of thing.

> the Occul^sm or Mys^cism K/S Area? If not the whole exercise is moot, as
> the rules state that you need one of those to learn a new Heka Genera^ng
> K/S Area. :) OR, he'll have to teach her that FIRST, then struggle through
> Conjuraôn.

Oh piss on that... :) He is, actually, teaching her the basics rst.
THis was all his decision, too: He is teaching her Metaphysics rst.
THis is the K/S which I stated was the basic "science" of Sylvanor
Magick. In other cultures, things like Mys^cism are primary. But the
Sylvanor are the most, uh, "Herme^c" about their skil. He is also
teaching her all the Phaeree K/S's, and possibly one or two other
"background" skills. She asked him why, and he said, essenâlly, "You
need to know what you are summoning before you try to do it."

He is incredibly paranoid about that. In his HP history, he had to leave
his home village when he was trying (too early in his career) to summon a
small fuzzy creature and cri^cally failed. His village became a pu of
smoke and big bang noise, and he was the only thing lev... :) So now,
he not only has a fear of not making the same mistake (kind of a Ben
Kenobi-Star Wars thing going on here), but he also has a terrible phobia
of small fuzzy creatures.

> Just call me Obstrucônist. I don't mind. :)

Yeah yeah...pain in the buk, we know, we know...

> Dan.
> (Apparently back from a long period of lurking)

You must have been sucking your lozenge... :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 16:45:41 -0500
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9601101108.B10424-0100000@kingsher.birds.wm.edu>

Ignoring the rules for a minute (why am I good at that?)...

I learned quite a bit about Calculus, and I didn't take all that long. I
also know a lot about the machine I'm typing on right now, and I never
had any formal study.

Does anyone think that MMPow should be involved?

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 19:58:57 -0500
From: Jason Furedy <Preliathor@AOL.COM>

Perk!

Did I hear something about a boxed set Dave? That's news to me, PLEASE
give me a clue.

Thanks for everything,

Jason
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 07:15:34 -0600

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960110164404.10681B-100000@orichalc.acsu.bualo.edu> from "Jesse" at
Jan 10,
96 04:45:41 pm

Thus spake Jesse
> Ignoring the rules for a minute (why am I good at that?)...
>
> I learned quite a bit about Calculus, and I didn't take all that long. I
> also know a lot about the machine I'm typing on right now, and I never
> had any formal study.
>
> Does anyone think that MMPow should be involved?

I would use it in place of a teacher for self study. I once devised a
system (for a home brew game) for learning skills based on the teacher's
and the student's competence. Each year of training provided x skill points
which could be then used to develop related skills to the one being taught
(You trained to be some profession eg. Farmer). I think it was modied
by one of the character's intelligence scores and the teacher's average
skill level in the skills being taught. Or something.

Dan.

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 07:25:39 -0600
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960110162946.10681A-100000@orichalc.acsu.bualo.edu> from "Jesse" at
Jan 10,
96 04:42:08 pm

Thus spake Jesse
> Menkare (or Men-ka-re), the Dad, isn't too worried about money. He also
> believes that on-the-job training is useful. Besides, this was an
> emergency mission. Someone (apparently from the cult of Set) just
> assassinated Pharoah Thutmose XI's son on his Day of Ascendancy.
> Needless to say, all the royal bodyguards were drawn and quartered (or
> eighth'ed). The Empire is in turmoil. It is fairly important to those
> involved... :)

Oh well, in that case.........

> Oh piss on that... :) He is, actually, teaching her the basics rst.
> THis was all his decision, too: He is teaching her Metaphysics rst.
> THis is the K/S which I stated was the basic "science" of Sylvanor
> Magick. In other cultures, things like Mys^cism are primary. But the
> Sylvanor are the most, uh, "Herme^c" about their skil. He is also
> teaching her all the Phaeree K/S's, and possibly one or two other
> "background" skills. She asked him why, and he said, essenâlly, "You
> need to know what you are summoning before you try to do it."

Demonology! Demonology! Demonology! Yeah!

What a good idea, how responsible of him. Even puing aside his own
past, would you want to live on a world where there were bunches (or
even one) of mages running around able to summon any old thing (and I
mean Old Thing) without any idea of what Thing they were summoning?
Who knows when the Unholy or the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse (been reading
Rivs books) might get inadvertently summoned? Then where would your
world go? Hmmm?

> You must have been sucking your lozenge... :)

Careful, you might breach one of the obscenity guidelines on some server
and they might alert Newt and his minions, and then you would be doing
just what your PC does not want to happen: Summoning some Nameless Thing
upon us to Cause Destrucôn! Sorry, I got carried away for a moment.

Dan.

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 08:33:19 -0500
In-Reply-To: <m0taN18-000AF1C@Uucp1.mcs.net>

> Demonology! Demonology! Demonology! Yeah!

How did you know his secret desire? :) That and Necromany are a hobby.

> What a good idea, how responsible of him. Even puing aside his own
> past, would you want to live on a world where there were bunches (or
> even one) of mages running around able to summon any old thing (and I
> mean Old Thing) without any idea of what Thing they were summoning?
> Who knows when the Unholy or the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse (been reading
> Rivs books) might get inadvertently summoned? Then where would your
> world go? Hmmm?

Yeah, but then it would be fun! And we might as well change games and
play Kult...

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 08:57:28 -0500
Subject: Poli^cal Games/K/S's

Okay here's another quesôn...

What has anyone been doing involving poli^cs?

One of my games promises to be heavily involved in this side of life,
since the HP's are going to be recrea^ng a naôn which has been gone
for hundreds of years (and the local governments are not all going to be
happy about losing some or all of their power...).

I'm just trying to get a feel for what sorts of poli^cal things have
worked for other people. I'm denitely going to play this whole thing
up--the region they are in is splintered into dozens of small countries.
Of course, some of the local Kings will enjoy the idea of their ancient
homeland being reborn, but other, more selsh leaders (of which most
are) won't be quite so happy.

I gure that gives me all kinds of opportuniês for assassins, false
arrests, threats (obvious and subtle), etc... But more ideas are always
useful...

One thing I'm doing to spice things up a bit:

E^queke Sub-Areas!
Okay, so it's not the beginning of the end, but I gure that
someone who knows how to get along with poor peasants very well but has
never been in a royal court will have no idea what to do while there.
This example illustrates someone with an E^queke (SEC 1) STEEP of say
60, but no STEEP at all above that...
I gure that the base Sub-Area, which everyone receives, would

be the SEC of the HP's parents (or something else, if the HP history
needs it...). Normally, people won't get more than one to start with.
THis will have to come with either Quirks (Windows of Opportunity from
ARIA is what I'm thinking here) or Roleplaying during the campaign.
When in a situaôn where an E^queke of dierent SEC is
required, the dierence in SEC levels is the penalty in DR to the roll
(with a maximum of Extreme...). When the HP possesses more than one
Sub-Area, the one which provides the best chance is used. Now, I'm also
thinking of making each level away from your "home" Sub-Area be more
expensive. THis would be because you are used to your home, and learning
new ways of E^queke are hard.
Or maybe, you'd only get minor DR penalês when in your own
3-SEC level (1,2,3 or 4,5,6 or 7,8,9). That would be since all
aristocrats are close to the same...
I may also make dierent cultures possess dierent Sub-Areas.
I don't know how to act in Italy, for example... :)

Or maybe I should just stop thinking so much.

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 08:51:10 -0500
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960110164404.10681B-100000@orichalc.acsu.bualo.edu>

On Wed, 10 Jan 1996, Jesse wrote:

> Ignoring the rules for a minute (why am I good at that?)...
>
> I learned quite a bit about Calculus, and I didn't take all that long. I
> also know a lot about the machine I'm typing on right now, and I never
> had any formal study.
Yes, self study is important. I never had any formal training in Unix;
however, I had a fair amount of experience with computers and other
technological devices as well before I started to learn about it. In
fact, aver three years, I s^ll would only give myself about a STEEP of 15
or so. My point is that the reason I took to the Internet, Unix, MS-DOS,
and such is because I already had the background informaôn in my head
before I began. Of course, I infer this from watching a friend learn
(and trying to tutor her from ^me to ^me) without the benet of any
kind of training in Educaôn. Of course, as a result of this, I did
learn a thing or two about Educaôn (gained some STEEP from falling o
the camel, that is).

> Does anyone think that MMPow should be involved?
If you're larning completely on your own, I would say average MMPow +
MRPow; otherwise, use the Educaôn STEEP of the teacher. If they don't
have Educaôn STEEP, then use the rules for combined eorts (and roll
vs. the average of MMCap + MRCap for both the teacher and student).
However, I don't think that more than one student should be taken on in
this way.

That's my two cents.
--Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 09:11:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Poli^cal Games/K/S's

> Okay here's another quesôn...
>
> What has anyone been doing involving poli^cs?
>
> I gure that the base Sub-Area, which everyone receives, would
> be the SEC of the HP's parents (or something else, if the HP history
> needs it...). Normally, people won't get more than one to start with.
> THis will have to come with either Quirks (Windows of Opportunity from
> ARIA is what I'm thinking here) or Roleplaying during the campaign.

Speaking of ARIA, have you considered using Inuence Pools and
Leverage Pools? What about the concepts of Interac^ve History?

What has made you choose Mythus over ARIA as your game mechanics?

BTW, Why do I see alot of the same people on this mailing list
as the ARIA mailing list? I guess Mythus was ahead of its ^me,
or ARIA is doing a good job of 'revieving the myth' so to speak!

> Jesse
>
> -> Beavis: "But master, does not your scrotum need kicking?"
>

Larry

=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 08:43:00 -0600
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960111083204.26650A-100000@conciliator.acsu.bualo.edu> from "Jesse"
at Jan 11,
96 08:33:19 am

Thus spake Jesse
> > Demonology! Demonology! Demonology! Yeah!
>
> How did you know his secret desire? :) That and Necromany are a hobby.

Aren't they everybody's secret hobby? Or is it just me?

> > What a good idea, how responsible of him. Even puing aside his own
> > past, would you want to live on a world where there were bunches (or
> > even one) of mages running around able to summon any old thing (and I
> > mean Old Thing) without any idea of what Thing they were summoning?
> > Who knows when the Unholy or the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse (been reading
> > Rivs books) might get inadvertently summoned? Then where would your
> > world go? Hmmm?
>
> Yeah, but then it would be fun! And we might as well change games and
> play Kult...

But the beauty of Kult is you *can* play it with every game. Just overlay
the Kult cosmology on top of the seing you happen to be playing in. In
fact you could have HP's that died or otherwise became incapacitated wake
up cold, shivering and homeless in New York, 1996! The en^re Mythus life
was a dream....or was it? Or you could have HP's wander into Metropolis
and get tortured by the Death Angels and Archons! :)

Or is this o topic? :)

To get back on topic, how have you all handled summonings? I nd the
exis^ng summoning cas^ngs leave a bit to be desired. I have been placing
specic summoning cas^ngs around, for example Ritual of Summoning Gozar the
Destroyer. (Can only summon Gozar the Destroyer, who sounds like a major
demon to me, and I'm not certain I want to summon him with that name anyway).

Dan.


=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 14:59:19 -0500
From: Mike Phillips <mike@LAWLIB.WM.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960111083401.26650B-100000@conciliator.acsu.bualo.edu>

On Thu, 11 Jan 1996, Jesse wrote:

> What has anyone been doing involving poli^cs?

Hoo. It has depended on the exact game. I have run poli^cs-heavy games
where the characters are ac^ve par^cipants in the poli^cs and
poli^cs-heavy games where the poli^cs provide a consistently new,
challenging, and ever-more confusing background.

My soon-to-be-restarted game favors the laker (at the moment). I won't
talk too much more about specics here and now :-)

> I'm just trying to get a feel for what sorts of poli^cal things have
> worked for other people. I'm denitely going to play this whole thing
> up--the region they are in is splintered into dozens of small countries.
> Of course, some of the local Kings will enjoy the idea of their ancient
> homeland being reborn, but other, more selsh leaders (of which most
> are) won't be quite so happy.

Not to menôn those who support it as an ideal but undercut it if they
can't head it up ;-) Most importantly, keep people guessing.

Heck, one fun one to pull is always have the party leave while a 'good'
guy is on the throne and a 'bad' guy is ac^vely vilied by their circle
of acquaintances, then when they return makers are worse, and the rst
guardsman to quesôn them (entering a town or the like) asks which
they're for, and if they answer the good guy, they get thrown in prison
as subversives due to the very recent revoluôn ;-)

Revoluôns, murky poli^cs, and mul^ple layers always make for a solid,
fun, and ever-interes^ng background. Especially since there's always
another level, and the rug can be pulled out from uner the HPs at any
^me, and any number of ^mes :-)

> E^queke Sub-Areas!

Aaaaaahhhhhh!
[deleâ]

You know, you *could* always have the HPs have a detailed enough
background that you could massively increase DR *if* you actually are
requiring rolls against it.

So, the peasant comes before the king, having never lev his farm before,
and he's trying to act polite. DR extreme (or impossible --> 1/100 of
STEEP), and a fumbled roll (prac^cally guaranteed, although there's
always that uke 'yeah, th'travulin minstrul dun sez Ah shud neel at
that thar tahm' chance) means he tracked mud in, picked his nose, burped
a few ^mes to show appreciaôn of the meal, and just generally made a
severe nuisance of himself.

Then, of course, the SEC 7 knight who wanders in and was well-bred has a
DR of Very Easy if you even want to force a roll.

So, adjust DR one or two down per step removed from the situaôn, and
otherwise assess appropriate penalês. Why bother with the book-keeping
of addiônal sub-areas?

(Gee, can you tell I run most everything rather diceless? ;-) )

> Or maybe I should just stop thinking so much.

If the thinking keeps blocking DI6 from coming out, then yeah ;-)

Mike Phillips, mike@lawlib.wm.edu | LINUX: The OS that people
Mythus: hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/ | choose without $200
Home page: hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/ | million of marke^ng
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 14:38:16 -0500
In-Reply-To: <9601111411.AA12263@kodiak.c4.gmeds.com>

> Speaking of ARIA, have you considered using Inuence Pools and
> Leverage Pools? What about the concepts of Interac^ve History?
>
> What has made you choose Mythus over ARIA as your game mechanics?

Ah...ya bastard! :) I don't HAVE RolePlaying yet...which isn't to say
that I would necessarily switch to ARIA once I get it (which hopefully
won't be as long as it takes T$R to reissue Mythus...). I just know
about a few of the game mechanics from ARIA and I like them. I will
probably borrow the more interes^ng ideas from ARIA should I ever get to
see most of them... :)

Larry- Can you explain (in short words! :)) the ideas of Inuence and
Leverage Pools? I don't know what they are at all...

> BTW, Why do I see alot of the same people on this mailing list
> as the ARIA mailing list? I guess Mythus was ahead of its ^me,
> or ARIA is doing a good job of 'revieving the myth' so to speak!

My theory is that Mythus is/was a game for experts, and so is ARIA.
People are generally akracted to the same sorts of games, or so I've
seen. The complexity level for both games is higher than most, and I
think that brings a lot of people to them...

> > Jesse
> >
> > -> > Beavis: "But master, does not your scrotum need kicking?"
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 15:04:15 -0500

> Larry- Can you explain (in short words! :)) the ideas of Inuence and
> Leverage Pools? I don't know what they are at all...
>

OK, I will try (don't have the ROLEPLAYING :) book with me right
now:

Inuence Pools:

This is basically a pool that can be used to reduce the diculty
of social interaôn/poli^cal interacôn tests. There are many
dierent inuence pools, some represent specic people, some
organizaôns and the like.

Basically, if you successfully inuence/presuade/con someone, you
can gracefully withdraw your inuence to have a point added to
that par^cular pool (i.e. You inuence the Clan Leader of Dryanzi
to aide you in some way, but withdraw your inuence. You then
can add a point to your Inuence(Clan Leader of Dyranzi) pool).

Inucence pools can also gain points by doing favors/missions/good
deeds for the object of that par^cular pool.

Any^me you have points in your pool, you may spend them to reduce
the diculty of any interacôns done againt the object of the
pool on a one for one basis (i.e. later I go back to the Clan
Leader and need a guide. I can spend points from my Inuence
(Clan Leader of Dyranzi) pool to reduce my diculty to persuade
the Clan Leader.)

Leverage Pools:

These are exactly the same as inuence pools but work on a larger
scale. They represent countries, en^re guilds, the big stu.

Well, that was a likle longer than expects. Anyway, the book does
beker jus^ce to how points are gained and used. Leverage Pools are
mostly used/gained during Interac^ve Histories.

>
> > > Jesse
> > >
> > > -> > > Beavis: "But master, does not your scrotum need kicking?"
>

Larry

=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 17:39:40 -0500
From: "Tracy A. Bandy" <tbandy@CYBERPORTAL.NET>
Subject: Re: Poli^cal Games
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960111083401.26650B-100000@conciliator.acsu.bu
alo.edu>

>What has anyone been doing involving poli^cs?

I don't get heavily into poli^cs in the games I GM un^l the players
start to get involved. Then the possibiliês are myriad. A lot of it depends on
the characters, who they encounter and the general aitude of the region the
adventure is occurring in.
What I can do is recommend some reading that may give you a feel for
great poli^cal circumstances within a fantas^c storyline. I woukld suggest
checking out Frank Herbert's "Dune" books, Raymond Feist & Janny Wurts series
about the otherside of the Rivwar Saga (can't remember hte exact ^tle of the
series o the top of my head), and nally, the background to some parts of
Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series - a likle something referred to as the
Game of Houses. It might be very appropriate to the campaign background
described in a previous message.
Good luck,
Traki
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 20:10:04 -0500

In-Reply-To: <9601112004.AA13545@kodiak.c4.gmeds.com>

Larry-
Your explanaôn is perfect for what I'd need. I gure, we could toss
together some rules for Inuence Pools, but change the name, and use
them as a kind of "Social Joss."

Hmm...

Well, I suppose if you wanted things to get more complex you could
really have a couple dierent kinds of Joss--only usable in their own
set of circumstances. I think that might get to be a pain, but it would
allow for some more dierenâôn between gh^ng types and social
types...

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 09:18:53 -0500
From: "Timothy L. Francis" <TimandMere@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Poli^cal Games

>What has anyone been doing involving poli^cs?

It does depend on your world - you menôn a whole bunch of squabbling peky
states where once there had been an Empire - but oh, I don't know, perhaps,
maybe, well how about the real thing?

Check out any 19th century monster history of the Holy Roman Empire. They
wrote in a colorful style back then, and lots of detail. If you like a
likle more modern tastes, try Georey Parker's (editor) "The Thirty Years
War." Intrigue, religious disputes, assasins, bribery, poli^cal facôns
from A to Z, adultery, execuôns, mass peasant uprisings, interest group
machinaôns, famine, rapine, and armies marching back and forth for no
purpose whatsoever. Makes you proud to be a human bean...

In our campaign the players are invloved with several poli^cal facôns
within an Empire. The facôns are based on real historical ones we culled
together from dierent eras plus any others that make sense. You could
design half a dozen or so just based on Congress... But the key is to make
them plausible - the landowners probably won't ally with the merchants, but
they would with the banker's and the military. But the military probably is
in with the merchants, for nance purposes, while the banker's are in with
the urban centers - for trade and market fairs - who probably hate the
landowners. And everybody is against the peasants, well except the wealthier
ones - who borrow from the bankers - and the military likes them all since
they supply soldiers to use against the urban poor when they get restless...
etc, etc. Then you make each group split up into several dierent facôns
and it gets so complicated you can't keep track of it - and then the players
can never catch you in error since "it's a previously unknown facôn..."
whenever you make up something.

Have fun,

Timo

"A democracy cannot last when the majority realizes it can vote itself
largess out of the public treasury..."
Alexander Tilson, 18th century Scoish historian

P.S. Someone else menôned something about "Newt and his minions..." Now
you shouldn't bring poli^cs into the list. 'Cause if you did I'd have to
say, theore^cally of course, that if you'd read/listen to the news a likle
more closely you'd note the legislaôn to apply an^-pornography laws to the
Net is being pushed by the Democra^c Senator Obey (i think that's the
spelling) from Nebraska. Plus you'd also realize Newt doesn't have "minions"
- there would be no budget bakle if he could control the House Freshmen. He
can't - they all have something called "free will" and can make up their own
minds...
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 00:06:03 -0500
Subject: Cross-feeding, Miniature Pentacles, Huge Crikers

This is a tripartate quesôn:

(a) How do other JMs run cross-feeding? That is to say, is the
"eec^ve" STEEP used in the cross-feeding (which could, in theory, set
up interes^ng reverberaôns), or is the "actual" STEEP used? Does this
aect the Grade of Cas^ng employable?

(b) Under Miniature Pentacle (Conjuraôn), it is possible to create two
miniature pentacles which can coexist (but not touch), both of which
aect Suscep^bility. How does it aect suscep^bility? That is to
say, one doubles Suscep^bility, the other doubles Suscep^ble damage -if an HP (let's call him Johannes) has one out and displayed, does a
weapon held in his hands double the appropriate damage, or is this only
for Cas^ngs employing the Heka stored in the Pentacle? And if the
laker, how much heka from the pentacle should be employed for the eect?

(The other eects include: lightning damage negaôn, Nega^ve Heka
negaôn, make a temporary MENTAL Pentacle for purposes of

summoning/containing, etc)

(I'd *really* like to hear Dave's take on this one, if he remembers the
intent of the Cas^ng)

(c) For large creatures (the party was just run over by an Ein), a
post-game analysis of the acôn raised this quesôn: the Ein wore a
breast-plate over hides. Should the normal armor rules (piecemeal) be
used, or is he so bloody large that the breastplate should only be
considered for missile weapons? And if so, since the thing is so large,
should each piece of armor (which is assumed to be human-sized, more or
less) gain an appropriate mul^plier to its eect?

(d) One player wondered if it was even vaguely possible for an HP (let's
call her Firedancer) to gain Full Prac^ce in a second Dweomercraev.
Let's assume she's an Elemental Mage with Full Prac^ce.....

(BTW, I said no, but it is s^ll an interes^ng quesôn -- should there
be a way, and if so, what? If not, why not, since it is possible to gain
FP in one Dweomercraev and one Priestcraev simultaneously..... I know
there are no schools to handle it on AErth, but what about Phaeree, which
is *much* more magickal?)

Okay, they're pedan^c quesôns, but we're all a likle rusty (the rst
real Mythus game since May <sigh>, with one brief stopover in late
September) at it by this point.
-Mike Phillips, mike@lawlib.wm.edu | LINUX: The OS that people
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 02:44:19 -0500
From: Tom Harrison <BluSponge@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Cross-feeding, Miniature Pentacles, Huge Crikers

>>(d) One player wondered if it was even vaguely possible for an HP (let's
call her Firedancer) to gain Full Prac^ce in a second Dweomercraev.
Let's assume she's an Elemental Mage with Full Prac^ce.....

If she's an FP in Dweomercrav, it should carry over into _all other_ schools
of that nature. At least, thats the way I always ran it.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 16:04:23 -0500

In-Reply-To: <m0taON0-000AF0C@Uucp1.mcs.net>

On Thu, 11 Jan 1996, Dan T Williamson wrote:

[snip]

> To get back on topic, how have you all handled summonings? I nd the
> exis^ng summoning cas^ngs leave a bit to be desired. I have been placing
> specic summoning cas^ngs around, for example Ritual of Summoning Gozar the
> Destroyer. (Can only summon Gozar the Destroyer, who sounds like a major
> demon to me, and I'm not certain I want to summon him with that name anyway).

I don't have the Cas^ngs in front of me, but I would think you should be
able to summon a specic demon or other spirit if you knew the
creature's Truename. Naturally, this should make the DR easier than
normal for the ritual. Knowing this makes things easier would be a
temptaôn for power-hungry appren^ces to akempt the rituals before they
can properly handle the beings summoned, par^cularly in the case of a
special failure! >;-) I won't go into it again, but there was some
discussion last year over how to modify DR for summoning if the personna
knows the summoned being's Truename.

Also, for par^cularlly long and complex Truenames, it might make sense to
have the personna make a roll vs. Arcane Magickal (or the language used in
summoning) to be certain they don't mispeak the name. ('No! Wait! I
meant to summon Thalkista (the imp), not Thakarsta (a class of potency
demons).

[chop]

--Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu

P.S. Since the opening of this list, the log les have swelled to 8 Megs
of discussion and informaôn about Mythus!
P.P.S. Does anyone else besides Mike Phillips have complete log les
from Mythus-L's opening to present?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 04:29:05 -0500
From: Donald Eccles <Darkman416@AOL.COM>

Here are my thoughts on Mike's tripar^te quesôns (which are actually
quadrupar^te):

a. I know exactly what you mean by "reverberaôn." I keep track of both

base STEEP and adjusted STEEP. When guring the cross-feeding I always use
base STEEP. When adding in AP addiôns to STEEP, the base goes up, from
which the adjusted STEEP is then calculated. However, I'd liketo point out
that there are several typos from issue #2 ( I think) of MMM, wherein the
expanded cross-feeding table was published. For instance, Combat HTH Lethal
is said to cross-feed with Games, Physical (Boxing) as a one-way feed under
one area but as a two-way feed under the other. There are also cross-feeds
that aren't menôned under their counterparts. If anyone has an unocal,
non-copyright viola^ng list of these with the correcôns I would like to
see it posted.

b. Good quesôn. I hadn't no^ced this before (but then, I haven't got
that far yet. I am correc^ng the Mythus Magick manual page by page and will
post my list when it is complete) but I would say that it only applies to
Cas^ngs using Heka stored in the pentacles. However, each should double
Suscep^bility, so using two quadruples it. But cas^ng with a pentacle in
each hand makes it impossible to do something else at the same ^me or even
consecu^vely, in my opinion.

c. I would just s^ck to the standard rules for Eins unless there is a
special situaôn. Opening the door to complaints from players on this
point, well-meaning though they are, will cause the JM many headaches later
from rules lawyers.

d. Full Prac^ce is Full Prac^ce, either you are or you aren't. If you are
a Black Dweomercraever, let us say, and take up Elemental School as an
elec^ve, you are considered to have Full Prac^ce in that as well. The only
excepôn I see is that to have Full Prac^ce in both Dweomercraev and
Priestcraev you must start your career that way, else any subsequent
journeys into one aver star^ng with the other are limited to Full Prac^ce.

That's my opinion....

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 07:34:17 -0600
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.960113235558.15526A-100000@skaro.lawlib.wm.edu>
from "Mike Phillips" at Jan 14, 96 00:06:03 am

Thus spake Mike Phillips
> (a) How do other JMs run cross-feeding? That is to say, is the
> "eec^ve" STEEP used in the cross-feeding (which could, in theory, set
> up interes^ng reverberaôns), or is the "actual" STEEP used? Does this
> aect the Grade of Cas^ng employable?

If you look at the rules carefully, I believe it says that the crossfeeding only occurs once, during HP creaôn. Aver that all of the
K/S Areas develop seperately.

> (c) For large creatures (the party was just run over by an Ein), a
> post-game analysis of the acôn raised this quesôn: the Ein wore a
> breast-plate over hides. Should the normal armor rules (piecemeal) be
> used, or is he so bloody large that the breastplate should only be
> considered for missile weapons? And if so, since the thing is so large,
> should each piece of armor (which is assumed to be human-sized, more or
> less) gain an appropriate mul^plier to its eect?

Welllll.....One could make an argument that the breastplate would make
no dierence but that all akacks on the ein from hand held weapons
cause only non-vital hits (legs) or maybe a chance at that really big
vein in the leg or the tendon. But I think it would be just as easy to
say that it is so big that the chance of hiing anything important with
a measley 3' sword to be negligible. What do you mean by appropriate
mul^plyer to its eect?

> (d) One player wondered if it was even vaguely possible for an HP (let's
> call her Firedancer) to gain Full Prac^ce in a second Dweomercraev.
> Let's assume she's an Elemental Mage with Full Prac^ce.....

The way I would run it, if I had FP in my campaign, would be that a Mage is
FP in Dweomercraev. They would get increased Heka from Magick and their
highest rated Dweomercraev area, and basic Heka from any addiônal
DC areas, their spell cas^ng ability would be the same for all DC cas^ngs
(except for the actual STEEP) - i.e. they would be able to cast spells
of grades above their Grade.

I've done away with cas^ng grades en^rely in my current magic system.
I am simply assigning cas^ng diculês and Heka costs that seem
appropriate to me.

Dan.

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 08:25:21 -0600
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9601141533.A10397-0100000@blackbird.birds.wm.edu> from
"Snead Ryan W" at Jan 14, 96 04:04:23 pm

Thus spake Snead Ryan W
> I don't have the Cas^ngs in front of me, but I would think you should be
> able to summon a specic demon or other spirit if you knew the
> creature's Truename. Naturally, this should make the DR easier than
> normal for the ritual. Knowing this makes things easier would be a
> temptaôn for power-hungry appren^ces to akempt the rituals before they
> can properly handle the beings summoned, par^cularly in the case of a
> special failure! >;-) I won't go into it again, but there was some
> discussion last year over how to modify DR for summoning if the personna
> knows the summoned being's Truename.

Yeah, I remember the discussion.

> Also, for par^cularlly long and complex Truenames, it might make sense to
> have the personna make a roll vs. Arcane Magickal (or the language used in
> summoning) to be certain they don't mispeak the name. ('No! Wait! I
> meant to summon Thalkista (the imp), not Thakarsta (a class of potency
> demons).

Heh. I *like* this idea. Maybe some of my players will begin learning
new langauages and such. Why should all magic be conducted in the same
language? In my seing most of the magic in the Empire will be done in
Old La^n or Greek (a dead langauge in my world). Other good candidates for
magical cas^ngs would be Sumerian, Elamite or Dynas^c Egypân.
The character should be required to roll against the appropriate language
or failing that, linguis^cs and failing that, sheer luck.

Dan.

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 09:57:20 -0600
Subject: More few quesôns..

Hello, a few more quesôns.. Does anyone use music to enhance
their mythus playing? I've been looking for the right music for mine,
but the ones I try sound soooo dull. What kinda music do you all use, if
you do?
Also does anyone have anything on races? I like the races in the
mythus books, but I'd think they'd rather be backgrounds which add and
take away from K/S areas (like a green-mage elf, for example.) then the
packet of K/S areas themselves. thanks
-Ken
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 11:29:07 -0500
In-Reply-To: <m0tbpxU-000AF4C@Uucp1.mcs.net>

On Mon, 15 Jan 1996, Dan T Williamson wrote:

[snip]

> Heh. I *like* this idea. Maybe some of my players will begin learning
> new langauages and such. Why should all magic be conducted in the same
> language? In my seing most of the magic in the Empire will be done in
> Old La^n or Greek (a dead langauge in my world). Other good candidates for
> magical cas^ngs would be Sumerian, Elamite or Dynas^c Egypân.
> The character should be required to roll against the appropriate language
> or failing that, linguis^cs and failing that, sheer luck.

Glad to hear that someone is actually reading what I have to say. (beker
yet *liking* it!) Actually, Mike Phillips has HPs who devote themselves
to magick learn Arcane Magickal (and possibly Hiero-Aegypân if
appropriate) as foreign languages, but this is mostly for the purposes of
research. Cas^ngs can then be translated into the na^ve tongue of the
caster. Even if I can't really take credit for the idea, I like having
posi^ve feedback. IMHO, if you're going to have your HPs roll vs. a
foreign language for cas^ng, you should also permit them to translate
them to a language they are more familiar with (given ^me of course).
Naturally, something could get lost in the translaôn, so an addiônal
heka cost, appropriate to the relatedness of the two languages (check the
chart in Mythus), should be noted. This cost could be reduced by Special
Successes in the cas^ng. "Oh! I get what that text meant to say!" Aren't
there rules for this cost reducôn in the Specic Cas^ngs secôn of
Mythus Magick?

Have fun! Hope your players don't cast the Leave Game Eyebite. ;-)

--Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu

P.S. If they complain, you can tell them it's my fault --just so long as
you don't tell them where I live.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 13:44:25 -0500

Subject: Re: More few quesôns..

On Mon, 15 Jan 1996, Kenny Hill wrote:

> Hello, a few more quesôns.. Does anyone use music to enhance
> their mythus playing? I've been looking for the right music for mine,
> but the ones I try sound soooo dull. What kinda music do you all use, if
> you do?
Mike likes to use a lively mixture of Weird Al Yankovik, and the
soundtrack to Conan the Barbarian for combat sequences. I guess you
could say that he takes the Conan the Bavarian approach to background musick.

It depends on what you're doing and what music you have available. I
suppose that you could sink hundreds of dollars into soundtracks and
other music for play. Consistency is probably best, since you don't
really want to telegraph your movement by changing CDs, unless one of
your HPs has the super-quirk: power of soundtrack.
Pierre: "I have a bad feeling about this."
Grendel: "Why is that? The forrest is beau^ful today!"
Pierre: "I hear some spooky music in my head."
Grendel: "Oh...right."

> Also does anyone have anything on races? I like the races in the
> mythus books, but I'd think they'd rather be backgrounds which add and
> take away from K/S areas (like a green-mage elf, for example.) then the
> packet of K/S areas themselves. thanks
There's been discussion of this before. Essenâlly, my take on it would
be this: If you REALLY want to go to all the trouble of crea^ng a Green
Dweomercraev Elf Vocaôn, go ahead and do it. However, it's much
simpler to do a comparison of the descripôns and Vocaôns, then pick
and choose your K/S as appropriate (with JM approval of course). Maybe
break down one or two of the secondary K/S into a number of smaller
ones. Slap on an appropriate Psychogenic K/S, some quirks, and
counter-quirks (the REAL racial modicaôns); then run with it.

--Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 14:04:33 -0500

Ken-
Races are what I've been using since I started Mythus. I never liked the
idea of "Elf, period." (ala Original D&D). I use races as a modicaôn
to the normal Vocaôns...that is, there are Cordmarren Cavaliers, and
Aegirian Cavaliers. There are, of course, some Vocaôns which are
available to only certain races, as well as some Vocaôns which I've
created especially for some races.

It's an easy thing to do, and it gives the HP's something else to think
about... :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 15:10:07 -0500

Cross feeds;

I use the totals (as opposed to the base), think of it as interacôn between
K/S areas. I have also modied the cross feeds a bit to minimize
condiônal feeds. i.e. if you have this sub area it cross feeds to this
other sub area.
I my view cross feeds would indeed increase the grade of cas^ng available,
however, very few (if any) feeds are into cas^ng areas.

Large Crikers;

There are two issues here. 1) what areas are armored, and what areas can
reasonably be hit by the HPs. and 2) If a piece of armor is four ^mes its
human sized counterpart, is it also thicker.

I'd say play the rst by ear. Obviously if a party can only reach a
crikers legs, that should be the only target. However, a tall character
wielding a reach 3 rapier could reasonably expect to hit somewhere higher on
the Ein (or whatever) they aren't *that* tall, whether he would want to is
another quesôn. If the legs are unarmored and the chest armored by 1"
plate I know what my choice would be.
I would probably alter the hit locaôn chart a bit when gh^ng really big
opponents, making beker hits harder to get.

Full prac^ce DCraev;

The rules specically say that only DCraev, general and the HPs primary
sub-area are allowed the FP bonus. Whether you allow a second school would
be a house rule decision, however, if allowed it should require considerable
study (non-game) ^me to achieve.

On a related topic, MMM #3 & 5(?) make it clear that FP DCraevers who have
ac^ve PCraev have a signicant advantage over FP PCraevers with ac^ve
DCraev in that a non-DCraev persona cannot that a DCraev sub-area as a
"primary". Of course he/she s^ll gets a whole sh**pot more Heka.

Well, there's my two cents for the day.

R. Crook
kelthar@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 14:28:07 -0600
Subject: Re: Magickal Languages
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9601151119.B12870-0100000@blackbird.birds.wm.edu> from
"Snead Ryan W" at Jan 15, 96 11:29:07 am

> Actually, Mike Phillips has HPs who devote themselves
> to magick learn Arcane Magickal (and possibly Hiero-Aegypân if
> appropriate) as foreign languages, but this is mostly for the purposes of
> research. Cas^ngs can then be translated into the na^ve tongue of the
> caster. Even if I can't really take credit for the idea, I like having
> posi^ve feedback. IMHO, if you're going to have your HPs roll vs. a
> foreign language for cas^ng, you should also permit them to translate
> them to a language they are more familiar with (given ^me of course).
> Naturally, something could get lost in the translaôn, so an addiônal
> heka cost, appropriate to the relatedness of the two languages (check the
> chart in Mythus), should be noted. This cost could be reduced by Special
> Successes in the cas^ng. "Oh! I get what that text meant to say!" Aren't
> there rules for this cost reducôn in the Specic Cas^ngs secôn of
> Mythus Magick?

Would you really want to translate a cas^ng? Especially one that involves
a summoning or any kind?!! You would have to make the decision to
translate the text absolutely literally or to translate the meaning. What
if you guess wrong? No, no, I have done enough (or not done) tranlaôns
to know that it is way to easy to make a mistake, or miss a shade of
meaning to want to risk using a translaôn of a spell. No thank you.
I'd rather spend the 4 years learning the ancient forgoken language than
risk using a translaôn. Just not a good idea.

> P.S. If they complain, you can tell them it's my fault --just so long as
> you don't tell them where I live.

..wm. that'w William and Mary college right? :)

Dan.

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 18:10:08 -0500
From: William A Helm <CHAINMAIL@AOL.COM>

We always Listen to the local metal staôn when we game...

Bill
"Why for you put me in the cold cold ground?" - Tazmanian Devil
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 17:00:18 -0500
From: Christopher Stainton <StaintonC@AOL.COM>

In a message dated 96-01-15 10:57:31 EST, you write:

> Hello, a few more quesôns.. Does anyone use music to enhance
>their mythus playing? I've been looking for the right music for mine,
>but the ones I try sound soooo dull. What kinda music do you all use, if
>you do?

I use anything by Wagner............

Chris Stainton
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 18:31:18 -0500
In-Reply-To: <m0tbvZo-000AF4C@Uucp1.mcs.net>

On Mon, 15 Jan 1996, Dan T Williamson wrote:

> Thus spake Snead Ryan W
> > Actually, Mike Phillips has HPs who devote themselves

Whoa, that's me :-)

> > to magick learn Arcane Magickal (and possibly Hiero-Aegypân if

> > appropriate) as foreign languages, but this is mostly for the purposes of
> > research.

I might add that the Arcane Magickal language was Glantrian, from a
Mythus game set on Mystara. Technically, it was a par^cular, s^lted
form of Glantrian which was the most 'ideal' language for magickal
wri^ngs (of the non-priestly sort). Sort of a 'High Magic' that every
serious dweomercraever learned, just to be able to express certain
concepts without complex circumlocuôns.

> Would you really want to translate a cas^ng? Especially one that involves
> a summoning or any kind?!! You would have to make the decision to
> translate the text absolutely literally or to translate the meaning. What
> if you guess wrong? No, no, I have done enough (or not done) tranlaôns
> to know that it is way to easy to make a mistake, or miss a shade of
> meaning to want to risk using a translaôn of a spell. No thank you.
> I'd rather spend the 4 years learning the ancient forgoken language than
> risk using a translaôn. Just not a good idea.

Uh, but are you certain that you grasp the actual philosophy, psychology,
and underlying meaning of said language? With a language par^cularly
suited to the task, sure, but with a natural language?

And once one understands the Cas^ng (which is, aver all, nothing more
than the acôn of channelling Heka via the Laws of Magic into a
par^cular shape), why *can't* one jot the Cas^ng back down in one's
na^ve tongue, certainly something one understands beker than con^nuing
to copy that par^cularly arcane text?

Of course, if one argues that the Cas^ng is an obscure ritual which has
no real meaning except for the acôns themselves, then all Cas^ngs are
ukerly untranslatable. My take is that they aren't, that there is an
underlying concept/logic/acôn/reacôn sequence which, once
successfully performed from the version in some other language, can be
re-wriken (not necessarily translated) into a more readable form. :-)

> > P.S. If they complain, you can tell them it's my fault --just so long as
> > you don't tell them where I live.
>
> ..wm. that'w William and Mary college right? :)

The College of William & Mary, which is actually a university, but that's
beside the point :-) Yes :-)

Mike Phillips, mike@lawlib.wm.edu | MYTHUS: The game people
Mythus: hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/ | choose despite a
Home page: hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/ | $2 million lawsuit
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 21:02:28 -0500

In-Reply-To: <960115181006_117431305@emout05.mail.aol.com>

> We always Listen to the local metal staôn when we game...
>
> Bill

Hmph...it must be nice having a local metal staôn...

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 00:48:23 -0600
Subject: When..

When does that phaeree monster internet manual come out? Will we
have to email someone for a copy? Oh, and what about DI #6? Does anyone
have any crea^ve plots, or adventure ideas that they could share. It
can get hard trying to get the right atmosphere for Mythus some^mes, so
I was just curious how everyone else handled it. Im very much interested
if someone had an extra necropolis if they would possibly sell ? (ha!
Right, :) Im sure you are all clinging to any mythus stu with all your
might. My mythus book is literally falling to shreds :(, dont know what
to do but keep the pages in order.)
Does Gygax have Email address by chance? :)
Well, happy gaming!
-Ken
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 00:18:42 PST
Subject: Re: When..

---------------Original Message-------------- When does that phaeree monster internet manual come out? Will we
have to email someone for a copy? Oh, and what about DI #6? Does anyone
have any crea^ve plots, or adventure ideas that they could share. It
can get hard trying to get the right atmosphere for Mythus some^mes, so
I was just curious how everyone else handled it. Im very much interested
if someone had an extra necropolis if they would possibly sell ? (ha!
Right, :) Im sure you are all clinging to any mythus stu with all your
might. My mythus book is literally falling to shreds :(, dont know what
to do but keep the pages in order.)
Does Gygax have Email address by chance? :)
Well, happy gaming!
-Ken

----------End of Original Message---------
Phaeree Manual... No, you don't need to e-mail anyone... now, I just added you to the
list.

DI #6... Contact Jesse at jgris@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU.

Daniel.

------------------------------------Name: Daniel Pickek
E-mail: Sprrwhwk@Sparrowhawk.wanet.net
Date: 01/17/96
Time: 00:18:42
------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 08:07:06 -0600
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.960116181317.6759C-100000@skaro.lawlib.wm.edu>
from "Mike Phillips" at Jan 16, 96 06:31:18 pm

> Uh, but are you certain that you grasp the actual philosophy, psychology,
> and underlying meaning of said language? With a language par^cularly
> suited to the task, sure, but with a natural language?

Well that is part of learning a natural language. You also learn the
psychological context. But point well taken.

> And once one understands the Cas^ng (which is, aver all, nothing more
> than the acôn of channelling Heka via the Laws of Magic into a
> par^cular shape), why *can't* one jot the Cas^ng back down in one's
> na^ve tongue, certainly something one understands beker than con^nuing
> to copy that par^cularly arcane text?
>
> Of course, if one argues that the Cas^ng is an obscure ritual which has
> no real meaning except for the acôns themselves, then all Cas^ngs are
> ukerly untranslatable. My take is that they aren't, that there is an
> underlying concept/logic/acôn/reacôn sequence which, once
> successfully performed from the version in some other language, can be
> re-wriken (not necessarily translated) into a more readable form. :-)

Well, I dislike the idea of Magic as Science, which is what you are
talking about here. In my magical philosophy, cas^ngs are more like
obscure rituals (most of the ^me). They are strictly powered by the
belief of the caster, and most people are not strong enough to alter
a cas^ng and s^ll get it to work. However the development of new
cas^ngs is possible, through the research and persual of old texts
and scrolls describing dierent takes of magical philosophical
theories and then extrapola^ng possibiliês from there. So it is
not exactly creaôn of a new cas^ng, it is more like the discovery
of an older cas^ng that never existed before (huh?). New cas^ngs
are con^nuously developed as long as new magical texts are wriken
and become old, musty and, therefore, respected.

We're talking massive delusions here. If you don't beleive magic works
at all then it will all seem just a bit silly.
This allows me to use the same philosophy no maker what game I am playing
from Mythus to Sci-Fi.

Dan.

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 13:07:14 -0600
From: Eric Medalis <astolfo@INTERACCESS.COM>
Subject: Re: When..

> Im very much interested if someone had an extra necropolis if they would
>possibly sell ? (ha!
>Right, :) Im sure you are all clinging to any mythus stu with all your
>might. My mythus book is literally falling to shreds :(, dont know what
>to do but keep the pages in order.)

I was at a local Games store this weekend and they had Mythus Stu there,
Including a number of issues of Journeys magazine and I believe Necropolis.
They do mail order. The store is Games Plus, and their number is
708.577.9656. You'll have to pay full price, but you'll get the stu.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 10:42:18 +0100
From: Csornyei Zoltan <h10785cso@ELLA.HU>
Subject: Phaeree Manual

Dear Daniel,

I wrote a leker a week ago, but there was an error
and it came back yesterday.
Now again:

Please add me to the Phaeree Manual list too.
Thank You

Dormak
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 19:23:23 PST
Subject: Re: Phaeree Manual

Hello Again everyone,

I have nally contacted all the volunteers and the Phaeree Manual is "Ocaly"
underway. I have a ru drav of the manual and will be unloading it to Mike later on this
week. Once crikers start comming, they will be posted to the list, and added to the manual.
When there is a few new crikers in, I'll make a rst run to everybody.

The rst "run" of crikers I sent out is about 40-50 of the more common crikers
(saving the best for the last).

To everybody who has sent me e-mail reques^ng a copy of the manual; I have goken all
of the requests. So when this is done, you will be geing a e-mail version, but I expect this
to tack some ^me, so be paênt, things are moving...

Daniel.
------------------------------------E-mail: Sprrwhwk@sparrowhawk.wanet.net
Date: 01/18/96
Time: 19:23:23
------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:34:41 +0100
From: "Harold Stringer, Ridascreen-Biopharm B.V." <biopharm@XS4ALL.NL>
Subject: Re: When..

At 00:48 17-01-96 -0600, you wrote:
>might. My mythus book is literally falling to shreds :(, dont know what
>to do but keep the pages in order.)

You can punch holes trough the pages, and put it in a binder. It works OK if
you use a high quality binder that does not tear the pages apart.

Harold
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 12:19:04 -0700
From: "Aaron P. Brezenski" <apbtjs@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: When..
In-Reply-To: <199601191234.AA18923@xs1.xs4all.nl> from "Harold Stringer,
Ridascreen-Biopharm B.V." at Jan 19, 96 01:34:41 pm

> At 00:48 17-01-96 -0600, you wrote:
> >might. My mythus book is literally falling to shreds :(, dont know what
> >to do but keep the pages in order.)
>
> You can punch holes trough the pages, and put it in a binder. It works OK if
> you use a high quality binder that does not tear the pages apart.

I had this problem two years ago, actually. The construcôn of the Mythus
books (par^cularly the rst one) are preky shoddy.

At rst, I tried punching holes in the pages and puing them in a binder
(my old 2nd Ed. Monstrous Compendium, if you must know). Unfortunately, it
became highly evident that the binder was going to rip the pages.

So I got a whole slew of those plas^c page protector things, and put each
page in one of those. Now, the constraint became the size of the binder;
with all that plas^c, the tome just wouldn't t in the T$R product.

I got some *really* huge, acid-resistant binders from work, and one of those
was where the book nally found its res^ng place. It's s^ll preky
unweildy, and turning pages when you're near the beginning or end is kinda
tough, but it beats carrying around a book with pages shoved haphazardly
back into it...

Aaron Brezenski
"Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean there isn't someone out to get me."

Card-Carrying Member of the Illumina^
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 14:51:27 -0500
Subject: Re: When..

>>might. My mythus book is literally falling to shreds :(, dont know what
>>to do but keep the pages in order.)

>
The rst run of Mythus Handbooks had a faulty binding. GDW would replace
these at no charge. If you don't mind being laughed at you could try asking
TSR for a replacement.

Good luck.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 14:53:55 PST
Reply-To: MILLARD@wlv.ac.uk
From: MILLARD SPENCE <bu6467@WLV.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: When..

> > >might. My mythus book is literally falling to shreds :(, dont know what
> > >to do but keep the pages in order.)

> > You can punch holes trough the pages, and put it in a binder. It works OK if
> > you use a high quality binder that does not tear the pages apart.

> So I got a whole slew of those plas^c page protector things, and put each
> page in one of those. Now, the constraint became the size of the binder;
> with all that plas^c, the tome just wouldn't t in the T$R product.

How about dividing the book up into several folders, or even beker take it down to your local
quick print shop and see how much it would cost for them to bind it for you with wire comb
or plas^c comb in several secôns. You could make a snazzy cover for each secôn you get
bound.
Just make sure you also get a glossy card cover front and back and a clear plas^c cover front
and back which will make the whole thing a lot sêr and more protected.
If the binding ever ruins a page you can always photocopy the ruined page again and get it
inserted afresh,
This binding may not be possible if the spine area is all taky, and in that case get a new copy
asap before they burn the rest....especially as anything you do to the book (binding or pas^c
envelopes) is liable to cost as much as a good second hand copy <grin>

Chris Barnes
bu6467@ccub.wlv.ac.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 14:59:42 PST
Reply-To: MILLARD@wlv.ac.uk
From: chris barnes <bu6467@WLV.AC.UK>
Subject: GDW goes bust??

Hi all,

I have been hearing net rumours about the eect of the DJ bakle aec^ng GDW for the last
couple of months, and this morning my local game shop said they had been told GDW is to
cease trading at the end of the month due to;
(a) Bakle with T$R cost them heaps

(b) Traveller TNE has not been the sucess they hoped.

They said they got the informaôn from 2 independent sources
(1) Their wholesale supplier
(2) A games related magazine

Any comments? is it true? Is the world really shaped like a dodecahedron or was Lou Zocchi
right by thinking it was more like a d100?

Chris Barnes
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 15:23:32 +0000
From: Mar^n Joabsson <mjoei94@TUFVAN.HV.SE>
Subject: Armor and Magic

I'm rather new in this game and I think you've heard this quesôn a lot.
What disadvantages should a HP get when using an armor and cast spells.
Mar^n Joabsson.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 09:56:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Armor and Magic
In-Reply-To: <199601221420.PAA01240@eken.hv.se>

On Mon, 22 Jan 1996, Mar^n Joabsson wrote:

> I'm rather new in this game and I think you've heard this quesôn a lot.
> What disadvantages should a HP get when using an armor and cast spells.
> Mar^n Joabsson.
>
Unless you wish to make some sort of house rules, the only penalty to
cas^ngs in armor is the SF penalty. For example, one could argue that
the intricate moôns required for channeling heka would be impossible
with a certain amount of armor encumbering your movement, but in general,
this system is not so limi^ng as to prevent magickal personnas from
wearing armor, or gh^ng types to cast spells.

--Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 11:21:10 -0500
From: Gary Spechko <spechko@T8000.COM>
Subject: Re: GDW goes bust??

At 02:59 PM 1/22/96 PST, you wrote:
>I have been hearing net rumours about the eect of the DJ bakle aec^ng
GDW for the last
>couple of months, and this morning my local game shop said they had been
told GDW is to
>cease trading at the end of the month due to;
>(a) Bakle with T$R cost them heaps
>(b) Traveller TNE has not been the sucess they hoped.
>They said they got the informaôn from 2 independent sources
>(1) Their wholesale supplier
>(2) A games related magazine
>Any comments? is it true?

I can conrm that GDW will be going out of business February 29, 1996.

For more informaôn you can check my corporate web page at
hkp://www.tdi.dsc.t8000.com/

Gary Spechko
hkp://www.dsc.t8000.com/jag
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 18:14:09 +0100
From: Pal Arild Woje <Pal-Arild.Woje@BODO.IT.TELENOR.NO>
Subject: GDW goes bust??
In-Reply-To: <ECS9601221442D@wlv.ac.uk>

Yeah, unfortunately it's true, but not only due to TSR's hack'n slash.
GDW has had a gradually decline in sales over the last few years.
The chief developer of traveler, the new area says that most of the
products will be moved (sold etc.) to other companies.
I found this info on Chameleon Eclec^s hompage.
PAW
wwww
(@ @)
----------------------------------o000-----(_)-----000o----------------------------P. A. Woje Norwegian Telecom Phone : +47 75 51 24 42
P.O.Box 321, N-8001 Bod|, Norway Telefax : +47 75 51 24 01
R&D department (FoU Bod|) Private : +47 75 58 48 71

email: pal-arild.woje@bodo.it.telenor.no
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (__) (__)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 01:36:18 +0100
From: Ragnar Nicolaysen <ragnarn@TELEPOST.NO>


In the basic rules of mythus there are in fact no penalês for wearing
armour. You should be very careful in introducing such rules if you are not
willfully trying to make the system more like AD&D (The only system with
such a penalty system) This will greatly change the eect of Mythus=B4
"socialis^c" Magic system (Magick is for all, including ghters). The
limitaôn is allready there in that ghters do not usually have room for
Dweomercr=E6v or Priestcr=E6v Ability, and that weight is a hinder in many=
of
the spells.

Of course the system is totally unbalanced from the start, so that such
rules have as much potenâl as other restricôns for hindering your
players in star^ng out like gods.

A special warning: Gary Gygax is not your man for Calculus. Remember to
modify spells including some kind of volume/size changes in line with your
desires. The mathema^cs presented is sheer bollocs

---------------------------------------------------Ragnar Nicolaysen <ragnarn@telepost.no> Oslo, Norway
---------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:44:29 +0100

--=====================_822413973==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 15:23 22-01-96 +0000, you wrote:
>I'm rather new in this game and I think you've heard this quesôn a lot.
>What disadvantages should a HP get when using an armor and cast spells.
>Mar^n Joabsson.
>
You're just a likle too late to hear a discussion on this subject (last
december).

I've collected the e-mails, and bundled them in the akachement.

Harold

--=====================_822413973==_
Content-Disposiôn: akachment; lename="ARMORAND"

I want to know if regular armor can protect a character from heka-based

cas^ngs like heka-bolt charm? In the spells descripôn, it says "Heka
Bolts are not aected by non-magical armor." But on page 220 of the Mythus
book it seems like regular armor can protect you from cas^ngs like heka-bolt
charm....

George Goins

Those of you on the list that are running a Mythus campaign; do you allow
your heka users to wear armor?

George Goins

>
>George Goins
>
>
In our campaign heka-users are allowed to wear any kind of armor, but
for each speed factor above 2 the DR becomes one harder, of course there are
special kinds of armor but then they are expensive and hard to get.

Best wishes

Frode

Frode Jacobsen Tel. +47 22269441
Emil Korsmos Vei 23 email: frodeja@powertech.no
0678 Oslo
Norway

On Tue, 26 Dec 1995, George Goins wrote:

> Those of you on the list that are running a Mythus campaign; do you allow
> your heka users to wear armor?

Absolutely. There is no prohibiôn whatsoever, and it does not
signicantly aect game balance. Believe you me :-)

Of course, I was never one to worship at the altar of Game Balance
(reverberaôn eect from nowhere in par^cular).

Without it, Hekaurs would easily be toast in a heavy combat situaôn.
Armor Physical, et al. are handy, but take way too long to cast (even
when readied) to be *really* useful in a nasty hand-to-hand situaôn.

On the other hand, the player of the Full Prac^ôner (Elemental Mage)
in my group has chosen to basically rely on Armor, Physical and a couple
of handy Triggers, to protect her HP, because Armor is rather out of
character for the persona.

Besides, a Forester who couldn't mix his Herbal concocôns or read some
omens while wearing his leathers just wouldn't make sense.

Now for a side trip. I'm curious how some of y'all rule, since I seem to
be fairly liberal in my interpretaôns regarding Heka. In each of the
Armor, XXX cas^ngs (Dweomercraev, General), it says something to the
eect of: Only one Cas^ngs of this type can be on a persona at a ^me.

My ruling, born out by at least one published scenario, is that this
means that only one Physical Armor, one Mental Armor, one Spiritual
Armor, and one Heka Armor can be on the persona at any given ^me, rather
than only one Armor, XXX at a ^me (which would arguably make only the
Full-Persona Armor even interes^ng ;-) ).

Agreement? Disagreement? Thoughts? What happens when the second Armor,
whatever is cast? Does it dissipate, leaving the old one in place, or
does it wipe out the old one and the new one together, or does it replace
the old one? Dave?


On Tue, 26 Dec 1995, George Goins wrote:

> I want to know if regular armor can protect a character from heka-based
> cas^ngs like heka-bolt charm? In the spells descripôn, it says "Heka
> Bolts are not aected by non-magical armor." But on page 220 of the Mythus
> book it seems like regular armor can protect you from cas^ngs like heka-bolt
> charm....

If the armor is not magickal, the Heka Bolt (and many others) simply
ignores it. There are some Cas^ngs which do Physical Damage (quite a
few, in fact) which *will* be absorbed by the armor. A few examples are:
Fireknives Charm, Icearrows Charm, Slingstones Cantrip, Acidspray
Cantrip, Cold Ray Cantrip, Elemental Missile Charm, Acid Jet Cantrip,
Alkaline Shower Cantrip, and Fludd's Fire Spell.

Of course, in some cases the armor is rather quickly turned into Swiss
cheese (or worse), or the Armor enhances the damage (in Cold Ray, for
instance, damage is treated as Electrical for purposes of how well it
assists against the cold -- OUCHIE if one has a lot of metal on).

Cya,


Dave asked me to forward this to the list:

---------- Forwarded message ---------Date: Tue, 26 Dec 95 09:40:54 PST
From: Dave Newton <dave@abervon.com>
To: Mike Phillips <mike@LAWLIB.WM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Armor and Heka use

Mike: Please post this reply.

Regarding armor, Mike Phillips said:
>
>My ruling, born out by at least one published scenario, is that this
>means that only one Physical Armor, one Mental Armor, one Spiritual
>Armor, and one Heka Armor can be on the persona at any given ^me, rather
>than only one Armor, XXX at a ^me (which would arguably make only the
>Full-Persona Armor even interes^ng ;-) ).
>
>Agreement? Disagreement? Thoughts? What happens when the second Armor,
>whatever is cast? Does it dissipate, leaving the old one in place, or
>does it wipe out the old one and the new one together, or does it replace
>the old one? Dave?
>

Dave sez:
One of each type, and only one. Magickal armor is not cumula^ve. This is
preky much for [reverberaôn] GAME BALANCE... Subsequent Cas^ngs of the
same type REPLACE the previous armor of that type. Super strict GMs may
wish to allow only one of any type, but I allow for one of each. Anything
beyond that is ridiculous (Oh wow, dude. I've got two thousand points of
Mental Spiritual, Physical and Heka armor, and I'm going to go kick that
dragon's ugly buk... [Ahhh... No. I think NOT. This isn't Masters of the
Universe, He-Man. Sit down and start roleplaying. <grin>]).

Happy Holidays,
Dave
To philosophize is to doubt. -Montaigne
-------------------------------------------------Web page: hkp://www.abervon.com/~dirk/abervon.htm

On Tue, 26 Dec 1995, Mike Phillips wrote:

> Mike: Please post this reply.
>
> Regarding armor, Mike Phillips said:
> >
> >Agreement? Disagreement? Thoughts? What happens when the second Armor,
> >whatever is cast? Does it dissipate, leaving the old one in place, or
> >does it wipe out the old one and the new one together, or does it replace
> >the old one? Dave?
> >
>
> Dave sez:
> One of each type, and only one. Magickal armor is not cumula^ve. This is
> preky much for [reverberaôn] GAME BALANCE... Subsequent Cas^ngs of the
> same type REPLACE the previous armor of that type. Super strict GMs may
> wish to allow only one of any type, but I allow for one of each. Anything
> beyond that is ridiculous (Oh wow, dude. I've got two thousand points of
> Mental Spiritual, Physical and Heka armor, and I'm going to go kick that
> dragon's ugly buk... [Ahhh... No. I think NOT. This isn't Masters of the
> Universe, He-Man. Sit down and start roleplaying. <grin>]).

I have heard this ruling that 'Subsequent Cas^ngs of the same type XXX the
previous armor of that type, and the text of MM largely agrees with this
noôn by providing for how cas^ngs, par^cularly of a physical armor,
interact with one another. However, cas^ngs such as Elemental Shield (M
M p.60) and Shield of Belief (MM p.153) which do not directly produce armor,
but eec^vely create a shield of limited size. Both of these 'shields'
negate damage in physical armor style (1:1 P armor), but have certain
limitaôns (Shield of Belief does not protect vs. area eect, and
Elemental Shield has penalês for protecôn against opposed elements).
Are these dis^nct forms of Physical armor (as the for^tude cas^ngs of
Priestcraev Resist physical harm and Burlyone)?
"What about the shadow armors of Gray School and Ethos Shadowy Darkness?

*Penumbrate Armor "creates upon the clothing a weightless and virtually
unno^cable armor protecôn...the protecôn of penumbrate armor is not of
Heka armor sort, granted it is Heka-engendered."

*Shadow Armor: "This Cantrip forms a shadowy aura surrounding the
subject. This Eect protects such subjects from harm exactly as if they
were wearing full leather armor."

I'm sure there are probably other examples (such as the Apotropaism
wardings printed in Mythus), but I'll quit while I'm behind.

--Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu

* Text in quotes is printed directly from Mythus Magick, a currently
out-of-print tome originally published by GDW for which the copyright is
currently owned by TSR(c). The text is reprinted here without permission
from TSR(c) for the purpose of discussion under the fair use clauses of U.S.
copyright law.
(Actually, it's all part of my evil plan to reprint everything ever
published about Mythus or Dangerous Journeys online for the purposes of
'discussion.' Shhhhh! Don't tell!! At this rate, I should be done some
^me in the year 2375, assuming I don't die of old age rst. (-; )

Ryan, et. al.:

Elemental Shield and Shield of Belief are indeed supplemental to the "Armor,
Physical" and so forth Cas^ngs. Their funcôn is to assist and they do
have their limits.

It took me awhile to realize why there was such a thing as "Penumbrate Armor"
at all, since it seemed to be worse than the General Cas^ng "Armor,
Physical." Like so many unanswered quesôns, I had no recourse to the
creators and so, through meditaôn and many re-readings, I have come to the
following conclusions:
* As your quote points out, this is not Heka-Armor and wouldn't protect
against, say, a "Heka Bolt."
* Some other form of Heka-Armor (like "Armor, Physical") can be added, but
its protecôn is only against Heka-engendered damage.
* This Cas^ng lasts a lot longer than "Armor, Physical" (1 AT/STEEP versus
10 ATs). It can thus be cast farther in advance of need.
* Note that this Cas^ng aects a subject's clothing, not necessarily the
subject. Since the Cas^ng E/F/M states that other garments may be worn atop
it to hide the shadowy eect, I take this to mean that someone using Heka
Sight would also not no^ce this person as being protected, whereas "Armor,
Physical" would show up like a road are on an IR scope.
* It is "similar to chain mail in its eect." Does this mean it is able to
subtract as much damage as normal chain mail would and *then* absorb
addiônal damage equal to the Caster's M TRAIT or MR CATEGORY? Who knows?
Thankfully, no one has tried this yet. It is the most controversial aspect
of this Grade I Cas^ng. Yet, the Grade I "Shadow Armor" Cas^ng does say
exactly that, though it is only equal to full leather. In my opinion, it
should, though the extra armor negaôn should also be scored against hits to
cancel the Cas^ng when such extra damage equals the armor's protec^ve
value.

What say you, good people?

DOn

> > Those of you on the list that are running a Mythus campaign; do you allow
> > your heka users to wear armor?
>
> Absolutely. There is no prohibiôn whatsoever, and it does not
> signicantly aect game balance. Believe you me :-)
>
> Of course, I was never one to worship at the altar of Game Balance
> (reverberaôn eect from nowhere in par^cular).

Some "alleluliahs" come singing in from over here. :) Thank you Mike-- I
hate game balance. Was Legolas balanced with Frodo? Doubt it... :)

> Without it, Hekaurs would easily be toast in a heavy combat situaôn.
> Armor Physical, et al. are handy, but take way too long to cast (even
> when readied) to be *really* useful in a nasty hand-to-hand situaôn.

I have witnessed this rsthand. I admit, I was worried when my Users
placed their favorite armor Cas^ng upon themselves, but in the end, it
didn't make much dierence. Without other armors to supplement the fact
that magickal ones *end* on you at the worst possible moment, the Users
in my campaign averwards took the party monies (cash set aside for just
such an emergency) and went and bought some protecôn! :)

Besides, if a wizard is gh^ng another, and the other is wearing a
metal breastplate, what beker way "to say I love you, than with a
(spatula) uh...arcing bolt of electricity." Electricity works wonders...
> Now for a side trip. I'm curious how some of y'all rule, since I seem to
> be fairly liberal in my interpretaôns regarding Heka. In each of the
> Armor, XXX cas^ngs (Dweomercraev, General), it says something to the
> eect of: Only one Cas^ngs of this type can be on a persona at a ^me.
>
> My ruling, born out by at least one published scenario, is that this
> means that only one Physical Armor, one Mental Armor, one Spiritual
> Armor, and one Heka Armor can be on the persona at any given ^me, rather
> than only one Armor, XXX at a ^me (which would arguably make only the
> Full-Persona Armor even interes^ng ;-) ).

I guess it depends on your decisions regarding the power of magick in
your reality. If magick is a truly...uh...magickal thing, than I would
say you need to be preky liberal (ick, did I just say that? :)). I,
fortunately, have not had to worry about this yet. I would, however,
rule in agreement with you. I would use magick-physics-logic: each part
of the persona is protected by a separate type of force, and they
probably don't interact (which is why, when you get hit with a sword, you
don't take some collateral Mental and Spiritual Damage...hmmm.. now
there's an interes^ng magickal weapon).

Jesse
Merry Christmas (see below!)
-Bukhead: "I am the ghost of Christmas Past..."
Beavis: "Get the hell ouka here, I'm tryin' to watch a porno!"

All hail the words bespoke by the mighty Dave: (just kidding)

> Dave sez:
> One of each type, and only one. Magickal armor is not cumula^ve. This is
> preky much for [reverberaôn] GAME BALANCE... Subsequent Cas^ngs of the
> same type REPLACE the previous armor of that type. Super strict GMs may
> wish to allow only one of any type, but I allow for one of each. Anything
> beyond that is ridiculous (Oh wow, dude. I've got two thousand points of
> Mental Spiritual, Physical and Heka armor, and I'm going to go kick that
> dragon's ugly buk... [Ahhh... No. I think NOT. This isn't Masters of the
> Universe, He-Man. Sit down and start roleplaying. <grin>]).

Well, what fun is that? Rather than cheese out of that scenario...

Any dragon worth his salt would be able to use General Wizardry (oops,
sorry, Dweomercraev) with a fairly good STEEP, right? So, just blow
some Heka (and a Joss for eect) and Disjoin his big bad protecôn and
then step on him. :)

Jesse


>Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 10:44:31 -0500
>Reply-To: Mythus Fantasy Roleplaying Game List <MYTHUS-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
>Sender: Mythus Fantasy Roleplaying Game List <MYTHUS-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
>From: Mike Phillips <mike@LAWLIB.WM.EDU>
>Subject: Re: Armor and Magic
>To: Mul^ple recipients of list MYTHUS-L <MYTHUS-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
>
>On Tue, 26 Dec 1995, George Goins wrote:
>
>> I want to know if regular armor can protect a character from heka-based
>> cas^ngs like heka-bolt charm? In the spells descripôn, it says "Heka
>> Bolts are not aected by non-magical armor." But on page 220 of the Mythus
>> book it seems like regular armor can protect you from cas^ngs like heka-bolt
>> charm....
>
>If the armor is not magickal, the Heka Bolt (and many others) simply
>ignores it. There are some Cas^ngs which do Physical Damage (quite a
>few, in fact) which *will* be absorbed by the armor. A few examples are:
>Fireknives Charm, Icearrows Charm, Slingstones Cantrip, Acidspray
>Cantrip, Cold Ray Cantrip, Elemental Missile Charm, Acid Jet Cantrip,
>Alkaline Shower Cantrip, and Fludd's Fire Spell.
>
>Of course, in some cases the armor is rather quickly turned into Swiss
>cheese (or worse), or the Armor enhances the damage (in Cold Ray, for
>instance, damage is treated as Electrical for purposes of how well it
>assists against the cold -- OUCHIE if one has a lot of metal on).
>
>Cya,
>
>Mike Phillips, mike@lawlib.wm.edu | LINUX: The OS that people
>Mythus: hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/ | choose without $200
>Home page: hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/ | million of marke^ng
>
>
____________________________________________________________

Ridascreen-Biopharm BV Ronald Niemeijer
Staônsplein 40 Preludeweg 89
1315 KT ALMERE 1312 SN ALMERE
The Netherlands The Netherlands
Tel: (31) 36 5343445 Tel: (31) 36 5365906
Fax: (31) 36 5347265
E-mail: biopharm@xs4all.nl

(C)1995
____________________________________________________________

>Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 12:28:03 -0500
>Subject: Re: Armor and Heka use (fwd)
>
>Dave asked me to forward this to the list:
>
>---------- Forwarded message --------->Date: Tue, 26 Dec 95 09:40:54 PST
>From: Dave Newton <dave@abervon.com>
>To: Mike Phillips <mike@LAWLIB.WM.EDU>
>Subject: Re: Armor and Heka use
>
>Mike: Please post this reply.
>
>Regarding armor, Mike Phillips said:
>>
>>My ruling, born out by at least one published scenario, is that this
>>means that only one Physical Armor, one Mental Armor, one Spiritual
>>Armor, and one Heka Armor can be on the persona at any given ^me, rather
>>than only one Armor, XXX at a ^me (which would arguably make only the
>>Full-Persona Armor even interes^ng ;-) ).
>>
>>Agreement? Disagreement? Thoughts? What happens when the second Armor,
>>whatever is cast? Does it dissipate, leaving the old one in place, or
>>does it wipe out the old one and the new one together, or does it replace
>>the old one? Dave?
>>
>
>Dave sez:
>One of each type, and only one. Magickal armor is not cumula^ve. This is
>preky much for [reverberaôn] GAME BALANCE... Subsequent Cas^ngs of the
>same type REPLACE the previous armor of that type. Super strict GMs may
>wish to allow only one of any type, but I allow for one of each. Anything
>beyond that is ridiculous (Oh wow, dude. I've got two thousand points of
>Mental Spiritual, Physical and Heka armor, and I'm going to go kick that
>dragon's ugly buk... [Ahhh... No. I think NOT. This isn't Masters of the
>Universe, He-Man. Sit down and start roleplaying. <grin>]).
>
>Happy Holidays,
>Dave>
>To philosophize is to doubt. -Montaigne
>------------------------------------------------->Web page: hkp://www.abervon.com/~dirk/abervon.htm
>
>
____________________________________________________________

Tel: (31) 36 5343445 Tel: (31) 36 5365906
Fax: (31) 36 5347265

(C)1995
____________________________________________________________

>Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 10:30:52 -0500
>
>On Tue, 26 Dec 1995, George Goins wrote:
>
>> Those of you on the list that are running a Mythus campaign; do you allow
>> your heka users to wear armor?
>
>Absolutely. There is no prohibiôn whatsoever, and it does not
>signicantly aect game balance. Believe you me :-)
>
>Of course, I was never one to worship at the altar of Game Balance
>(reverberaôn eect from nowhere in par^cular).
>
>Without it, Hekaurs would easily be toast in a heavy combat situaôn.
>Armor Physical, et al. are handy, but take way too long to cast (even
>when readied) to be *really* useful in a nasty hand-to-hand situaôn.
>
>On the other hand, the player of the Full Prac^ôner (Elemental Mage)
>in my group has chosen to basically rely on Armor, Physical and a couple
>of handy Triggers, to protect her HP, because Armor is rather out of
>character for the persona.
>
>Besides, a Forester who couldn't mix his Herbal concocôns or read some
>omens while wearing his leathers just wouldn't make sense.
>
>Now for a side trip. I'm curious how some of y'all rule, since I seem to
>be fairly liberal in my interpretaôns regarding Heka. In each of the
>Armor, XXX cas^ngs (Dweomercraev, General), it says something to the
>eect of: Only one Cas^ngs of this type can be on a persona at a ^me.
>
>My ruling, born out by at least one published scenario, is that this
>means that only one Physical Armor, one Mental Armor, one Spiritual
>Armor, and one Heka Armor can be on the persona at any given ^me, rather
>than only one Armor, XXX at a ^me (which would arguably make only the
>Full-Persona Armor even interes^ng ;-) ).
>
>Agreement? Disagreement? Thoughts? What happens when the second Armor,
>whatever is cast? Does it dissipate, leaving the old one in place, or
>does it wipe out the old one and the new one together, or does it replace
>the old one? Dave?
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________

Tel: (31) 36 5343445 Tel: (31) 36 5365906
Fax: (31) 36 5347265

(C)1995
____________________________________________________________

>Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 13:23:50 -0500
>Reply-To: Snead Ryan W <rwsnea@birds.wm.edu>
>From: Snead Ryan W <rwsnea@BIRDS.WM.EDU>
>
>On Tue, 26 Dec 1995, Mike Phillips wrote:
>
>> Mike: Please post this reply.

>>
>> Regarding armor, Mike Phillips said:
>> >
>> >Agreement? Disagreement? Thoughts? What happens when the second Armor,
>> >whatever is cast? Does it dissipate, leaving the old one in place, or
>> >does it wipe out the old one and the new one together, or does it replace
>> >the old one? Dave?
>> >
>>
>> Dave sez:
>> One of each type, and only one. Magickal armor is not cumula^ve. This is
>> preky much for [reverberaôn] GAME BALANCE... Subsequent Cas^ngs of the
>> same type REPLACE the previous armor of that type. Super strict GMs may
>> wish to allow only one of any type, but I allow for one of each. Anything
>> beyond that is ridiculous (Oh wow, dude. I've got two thousand points of
>> Mental Spiritual, Physical and Heka armor, and I'm going to go kick that
>> dragon's ugly buk... [Ahhh... No. I think NOT. This isn't Masters of the
>> Universe, He-Man. Sit down and start roleplaying. <grin>]).
>
>I have heard this ruling that 'Subsequent Cas^ngs of the same type XXX the
>previous armor of that type, and the text of MM largely agrees with this
>noôn by providing for how cas^ngs, par^cularly of a physical armor,
>interact with one another. However, cas^ngs such as Elemental Shield (M
>M p.60) and Shield of Belief (MM p.153) which do not directly produce armor,
>but eec^vely create a shield of limited size. Both of these 'shields'
>negate damage in physical armor style (1:1 P armor), but have certain
>limitaôns (Shield of Belief does not protect vs. area eect, and
>Elemental Shield has penalês for protecôn against opposed elements).
>Are these dis^nct forms of Physical armor (as the for^tude cas^ngs of
>Priestcraev Resist physical harm and Burlyone)?
>"What about the shadow armors of Gray School and Ethos Shadowy Darkness?
>
> *Penumbrate Armor "creates upon the clothing a weightless and virtually
> unno^cable armor protecôn...the protecôn of penumbrate armor is not of
> Heka armor sort, granted it is Heka-engendered."
>
> *Shadow Armor: "This Cantrip forms a shadowy aura surrounding the
> subject. This Eect protects such subjects from harm exactly as if they
> were wearing full leather armor."
>
>I'm sure there are probably other examples (such as the Apotropaism
>wardings printed in Mythus), but I'll quit while I'm behind.
>
> --Ryan
> rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
>
>
>* Text in quotes is printed directly from Mythus Magick, a currently
>out-of-print tome originally published by GDW for which the copyright is
>currently owned by TSR(c). The text is reprinted here without permission

>from TSR(c) for the purpose of discussion under the fair use clauses of U.S.
>copyright law.
>(Actually, it's all part of my evil plan to reprint everything ever
>published about Mythus or Dangerous Journeys online for the purposes of
>'discussion.' Shhhhh! Don't tell!! At this rate, I should be done some
>^me in the year 2375, assuming I don't die of old age rst. (-; )
>
>
____________________________________________________________

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Fax: (31) 36 5347265

(C)1995
____________________________________________________________

>Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 20:55:15 -0500
>From: Donald Eccles <Darkman416@AOL.COM>
>Subject: Heka & Armor
>
>Ryan, et. al.:
>
>Elemental Shield and Shield of Belief are indeed supplemental to the "Armor,
>Physical" and so forth Cas^ngs. Their funcôn is to assist and they do
>have their limits.
>
>It took me awhile to realize why there was such a thing as "Penumbrate Armor"
>at all, since it seemed to be worse than the General Cas^ng "Armor,
>Physical." Like so many unanswered quesôns, I had no recourse to the
>creators and so, through meditaôn and many re-readings, I have come to the
>following conclusions:
>* As your quote points out, this is not Heka-Armor and wouldn't protect
>against, say, a "Heka Bolt."
>* Some other form of Heka-Armor (like "Armor, Physical") can be added, but
>its protecôn is only against Heka-engendered damage.
>* This Cas^ng lasts a lot longer than "Armor, Physical" (1 AT/STEEP versus
>10 ATs). It can thus be cast farther in advance of need.
>* Note that this Cas^ng aects a subject's clothing, not necessarily the
>subject. Since the Cas^ng E/F/M states that other garments may be worn atop
>it to hide the shadowy eect, I take this to mean that someone using Heka
>Sight would also not no^ce this person as being protected, whereas "Armor,
>Physical" would show up like a road are on an IR scope.
>* It is "similar to chain mail in its eect." Does this mean it is able to
>subtract as much damage as normal chain mail would and *then* absorb
>addiônal damage equal to the Caster's M TRAIT or MR CATEGORY? Who knows?
> Thankfully, no one has tried this yet. It is the most controversial aspect
>of this Grade I Cas^ng. Yet, the Grade I "Shadow Armor" Cas^ng does say
>exactly that, though it is only equal to full leather. In my opinion, it
>should, though the extra armor negaôn should also be scored against hits to
>cancel the Cas^ng when such extra damage equals the armor's protec^ve
>value.
>
>What say you, good people?
>
>DOn
>
>
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Fax: (31) 36 5347265

(C)1995
____________________________________________________________

>Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 01:02:11 -0500
>From: Jesse <jgris@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
>
>> > Those of you on the list that are running a Mythus campaign; do you allow
>> > your heka users to wear armor?
>>
>> Absolutely. There is no prohibiôn whatsoever, and it does not
>> signicantly aect game balance. Believe you me :-)
>>
>> Of course, I was never one to worship at the altar of Game Balance
>> (reverberaôn eect from nowhere in par^cular).
>
>Some "alleluliahs" come singing in from over here. :) Thank you Mike-- I
>hate game balance. Was Legolas balanced with Frodo? Doubt it... :)
>
>> Without it, Hekaurs would easily be toast in a heavy combat situaôn.
>> Armor Physical, et al. are handy, but take way too long to cast (even
>> when readied) to be *really* useful in a nasty hand-to-hand situaôn.
>
>I have witnessed this rsthand. I admit, I was worried when my Users
>placed their favorite armor Cas^ng upon themselves, but in the end, it
>didn't make much dierence. Without other armors to supplement the fact
>that magickal ones *end* on you at the worst possible moment, the Users
>in my campaign averwards took the party monies (cash set aside for just
>such an emergency) and went and bought some protecôn! :)
>
>Besides, if a wizard is gh^ng another, and the other is wearing a
>metal breastplate, what beker way "to say I love you, than with a
>(spatula) uh...arcing bolt of electricity." Electricity works wonders...
>> Now for a side trip. I'm curious how some of y'all rule, since I seem to
>> be fairly liberal in my interpretaôns regarding Heka. In each of the
>> Armor, XXX cas^ngs (Dweomercraev, General), it says something to the
>> eect of: Only one Cas^ngs of this type can be on a persona at a ^me.
>>
>> My ruling, born out by at least one published scenario, is that this
>> means that only one Physical Armor, one Mental Armor, one Spiritual
>> Armor, and one Heka Armor can be on the persona at any given ^me, rather
>> than only one Armor, XXX at a ^me (which would arguably make only the
>> Full-Persona Armor even interes^ng ;-) ).
>
>I guess it depends on your decisions regarding the power of magick in
>your reality. If magick is a truly...uh...magickal thing, than I would
>say you need to be preky liberal (ick, did I just say that? :)). I,
>fortunately, have not had to worry about this yet. I would, however,
>rule in agreement with you. I would use magick-physics-logic: each part
>of the persona is protected by a separate type of force, and they
>probably don't interact (which is why, when you get hit with a sword, you
>don't take some collateral Mental and Spiritual Damage...hmmm.. now
>there's an interes^ng magickal weapon).
>
>Jesse
>Merry Christmas (see below!)
>->Bukhead: "I am the ghost of Christmas Past..."
>Beavis: "Get the hell ouka here, I'm tryin' to watch a porno!"
>
>
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(C)1995
____________________________________________________________

>Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 01:08:03 -0500
>From: Jesse <jgris@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
>
>All hail the words bespoke by the mighty Dave: (just kidding)
>
>> Dave sez:
>> One of each type, and only one. Magickal armor is not cumula^ve. This is
>> preky much for [reverberaôn] GAME BALANCE... Subsequent Cas^ngs of the
>> same type REPLACE the previous armor of that type. Super strict GMs may
>> wish to allow only one of any type, but I allow for one of each. Anything
>> beyond that is ridiculous (Oh wow, dude. I've got two thousand points of
>> Mental Spiritual, Physical and Heka armor, and I'm going to go kick that
>> dragon's ugly buk... [Ahhh... No. I think NOT. This isn't Masters of the
>> Universe, He-Man. Sit down and start roleplaying. <grin>]).
>
>Well, what fun is that? Rather than cheese out of that scenario...
>
>Any dragon worth his salt would be able to use General Wizardry (oops,
>sorry, Dweomercraev) with a fairly good STEEP, right? So, just blow
>some Heka (and a Joss for eect) and Disjoin his big bad protecôn and
>then step on him. :)
>
>Jesse
>
>->Beavis: "But master, does not your scrotum need kicking?"
>
>
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Fax: (31) 36 5347265

(C)1995
____________________________________________________________

On Tue, 26 Dec 1995, Donald Eccles wrote:

> Ryan, et. al.:
>
> Elemental Shield and Shield of Belief are indeed supplemental to the "Armor,
> Physical" and so forth Cas^ngs. Their funcôn is to assist and they do
> have their limits.
Sounds good to me.
> It took me awhile to realize why there was such a thing as "Penumbrate Armor"
> at all, since it seemed to be worse than the General Cas^ng "Armor,
> Physical." Like so many unanswered quesôns, I had no recourse to the
> creators and so, through meditaôn and many re-readings, I have come to the
> following conclusions:
Kewl. I shall add my comments and thoughts for what texture they can oer.

> * As your quote points out, this is not Heka-Armor and wouldn't protect
> against, say, a "Heka Bolt."
[Puts on his best game show anouncer voice] That's right Bob, but that's
not all. She-Ra the Invincible will also enjoy many nights as our guest
in the luxurious accomodaôns found in the inrmary of Castle GrapeShot
thanks to the wounds she received from the much more common Heka Darts.

> * Some other form of Heka-Armor (like "Armor, Physical") can be added, but
> its protecôn is only against Heka-engendered damage.
[Ahem, clears out the GSA voice]. Actuallly, Armor Physical also protects
against non-magickal damage, and so might be proscribed from collusion.
(Anyone dis/agree?) The much more expensive Armor, Heka would be required.

> * This Cas^ng lasts a lot longer than "Armor, Physical" (1 AT/STEEP versus
> 10 ATs). It can thus be cast farther in advance of need.
Good point. However, for extended dungeon crawls --I mean adventures-I would prefer not to burn 20+M/MR per AT/s (probably 3 or 4 hours at best).

> * Note that this Cas^ng aects a subject's clothing, not necessarily the
> subject. Since the Cas^ng E/F/M states that other garments may be worn atop
> it to hide the shadowy eect, I take this to mean that someone using Heka
> Sight would also not no^ce this person as being protected, whereas "Armor,
> Physical" would show up like a road are on an IR scope.
The Cas^ng states that the armor would be physically visible, unless
covered, as dark shadows over the enchanted garment. For this reason, I
would think Heka Sight would s^ll detect it unless it were also somehow
masked, but I'm just guessing.
> * It is "similar to chain mail in its eect." Does this mean it is able to
> subtract as much damage as normal chain mail would and *then* absorb
> addiônal damage equal to the Caster's M TRAIT or MR CATEGORY? Who knows?
Well, I certainly don't, but I'll take another stab at it as She-Ra the
Invincible goes to bakle a Great Wyrm which has innocently stayed on its
home sphere that She-Ra the Invincible wishes to invade.
She-Ra the Invincible strides condently up to the Wyrm and bonks it on

the nose with her Great Tooth-pick --I mean Sword-- and boldly declares,
"I, She-Ra the Invincible, shall slay thee, vile beast and take your
jewel-encrusted throne as my palace!" [This in a thunderous voice
appropriate as it is campy].
It's Iniâ^ve. Naturally, She-Ra the Invincible wins her roll
thanks to her players new loaded dice and the Specic Cas^ng, "She-Ra's
Triple-Quick Lightning Charm" (She wanted it to be an Eyebite, but the
cas^ng grade would have been too high for her. Besides, the JM thought that
would upset game balance. Yeah, right.)
She-Ra blasts away with her well-nigh ensorcelled blade. The
throbbing glow from the sword hurts the Great Wyrm's eyes as she hacks away
at the beast, but does negligable damage. Now it's Asmodious' turn.
She-Ra the Invincible interrupts the JM's dice rolling with a
taunt, "You cannot harm me! I am protected by my Penumbrate Armor!" The
JM smiles slightly and borrows some of She-Ra's new dice. Amazingly, the
Wyrm does (6D6) 34 points of damage in an Ultra-Vital locaôn (x4) for a
total of 136 PD. Subtrac^ng 24 points for a piercing akack, She-Ra
takes 110 points of PD. In eect, the Great Wyrm, Asmodius, bites o
She-Ra the Invincible's head. Then, the ancient wyrm les down its
scratched scale while wai^ng for the appe^zer's triggered armors to
wear o.
If you didn't catch that, I would take the Cas^ng at its word.
It provides protecôn equal to chain mail for as many points as are invested
in the dweomer. Naturally, when this runs out, the cas^ng is negated.
Does this sound reasonable?

> Thankfully, no one has tried this yet. It is the most controversial aspect
> of this Grade I Cas^ng. Yet, the Grade I "Shadow Armor" Cas^ng does say
> exactly that, though it is only equal to full leather. In my opinion, it
> should, though the extra armor negaôn should also be scored against hits to
> cancel the Cas^ng when such extra damage equals the armor's protec^ve
> value.
I think that the extra armor is negated for damage taken by the
"leathery" porôn of the armor. However, this cas^ng states that even
when this special protecôn is reduced to zero, the cas^ng s^ll
funcôns as normal leather armor (Although note that 10 hits equalling
its full protec^ve value DOES negate the cas^ng). Addiônally, the
special protecôn channeled into the armor protects against Heka-engendered
damage, but the "leathery" porôn does not.

> What say you, good people? >
This is what I say, be it sooth or simply not.

--Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu

On Tue, 26 Dec 1995, Donald Eccles wrote:

> * Note that this Cas^ng aects a subject's clothing, not necessarily the
> subject. Since the Cas^ng E/F/M states that other garments may be worn atop
> it to hide the shadowy eect, I take this to mean that someone using Heka
> Sight would also not no^ce this person as being protected, whereas "Armor,
> Physical" would show up like a road are on an IR scope.
Oh yeah, I nearly forgot! If it eects the subject's clothing instead
of the en^re personna, does that mean that it acts as a chain mail shirt
(par example) instead of overall protecôn, thus varying in its
protec^ve value with Strike Locaôn? Furthermore, does the
Dweomercraever then have to lay the cas^ng over each individual item of
clothing in order to receive its full protec^ve value over the en^re body?
Gee Burt, those blokes look like regular Christmas trees with Heka Sight,
don't they? Yeah, let's go disjoin their cas^ngs and watch 'em set all
their armor up again.

--Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu

Volume 1, Number 3 of MMM claried this (sort of) as follows:

Unless specically stated otherwise or there is an obvious conict between
the magick and the armor, and subject to the Journey Master's nal ruling,
the wearing of armor by a prac^ôner, parâl or full, does *not* prevent
the cas^ng of heka.

(the preceeding para copyright TSR, blah, blah, blah)

It goes on to say that the SF of the armor does aect your cas^ng
iniâ^ve, and that holding a shield prohibits any cas^ng other than an
eyebite.

There are some prac^cal limits to the use of armor by DCraevers in
par^cular. As most of them are not strapping specimens of personhood,
having needed higher Mental and Spiritual scores, they become rather
"mobility challenged" in heavier armor. It should be noted that we apply the
SF ra^ng of the armor to base move on a CT basis, not BT.

Later

At 04:58 AM 12/26/95 -0500, you wrote:
>
>George Goins

I do with limitaôns.
First, the hands must be completely free and BARE. This is
essenâl for the manipulaôn of magickal energy(in my campaign).
Second, because the body is involved in spellcas^ng to some
extent(again, in my campaign seing), the armor must not be restric^ve to
moôn.
Penalês will accrue if the vision is blocked parâlly by a helm

when akemp^ng to target spell eects visually.
Also, because spells typically use incantaôns/trigger words etc.,
the jaw must be free to move and the caster must be able to ar^culate
CLEARLY and with FINE and SUBTLE dis^ncôns-impossible when gagged,
dicult when wearing certain helms.

Otherwise, I have no armor restricôns for heka users(I toyed with
a ban on all ferrous metals for Heka users(at least FPs), but ruled that out
as too restric^ve-though I s^ll consider it occasionally).

Mike Conard

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu

--=====================_822413973==_

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--=====================_822413973==_-=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 04:47:06 -0500
Subject: PPM

Ok, here's another quesôn: I wrote awhile back regarding PPM form. Here's
another one: one of my players has developed a strategy regarding Extreme

Akrac^veness. He has developed STEEP in Weapons, Special Skill
(Blindgh^ng Sub-Area) and dons a blindfold when combat with horrors from
the Netherrealms is imminent. So far this strategy has been varied in its
success rate. Since this HP also has high enough Mys^cism STEEP to start
Phase Shiving before combat in order to switch to PPM when things get hairy.
This raises the following quesôns:
1. Does a PPM persona have to check vs. Extreme Akrac^veness? Can he/she
see well or only hazily, and does that aect the DR?
2. Once a person is in PPM form, how well can they manipulate the physical
objects they took with them? Can they remove a blindfold, drink a poôn,
apply a healing pol^ce, and so forth?
3. Since a person can only take non-living items with them, can an HP pick
up a dead body and dematerialize (I don't see a weight limit, the descripôn
on page 242 says "xall that persona wears and carriesx")

P.S. This is o the subject, but another quesôn arises: can an
unconscious persona receive Faith Healing, since the Cas^ng species it is
limited by the recipient's faith in the healer?

Any input is appreciated.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 10:56:13 -0500
Subject: Re: PPM
In-Reply-To: <960124014449_303037118@mail04.mail.aol.com>

Dom

> Ok, here's another quesôn: I wrote awhile back regarding PPM form. Here's
> another one: one of my players has developed a strategy regarding Extreme
> Akrac^veness. He has developed STEEP in Weapons, Special Skill
> (Blindgh^ng Sub-Area) and dons a blindfold when combat with horrors from
> the Netherrealms is imminent. So far this strategy has been varied in its
> success rate. Since this HP also has high enough Mys^cism STEEP to start
> Phase Shiving before combat in order to switch to PPM when things get hairy.
> This raises the following quesôns:

This sounds like a smart strategy to me...

> 1. Does a PPM persona have to check vs. Extreme Akrac^veness? Can he/she
> see well or only hazily, and does that aect the DR?

I believe the HP can see physical things easily, therefore, they would
have to make the check. I wouldn't aect the DR, unless the demonic foe
has a PPM of its own, perhaps a dual nature? Then the HP has to ght it
in PPM form, while being sickened by its looks...

> 2. Once a person is in PPM form, how well can they manipulate the physical
> objects they took with them? Can they remove a blindfold, drink a poôn,
> apply a healing pol^ce, and so forth?

I believe they could do all that stu. Think of it as being somewhere
else. Everything you took is with you, so no problem...

> 3. Since a person can only take non-living items with them, can an HP pick
> up a dead body and dematerialize (I don't see a weight limit, the descripôn
> on page 242 says "xall that persona wears and carriesx")

Since the body is non-living, sure.

> P.S. This is o the subject, but another quesôn arises: can an
> unconscious persona receive Faith Healing, since the Cas^ng species it is
> limited by the recipient's faith in the healer?

No. Unconscious people have no choice over their faith. I wouldn't let
it work, unless the Mys^c could speak with the dead and tell the body
that "it's okay. I'm here to heal you." Then, the dead guy's Spirit can
respond...

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 23:50:16 -0600
Subject: Re: PPM
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960124105214.25051A-100000@autarch.acsu.bualo.edu> from "Jesse" at
Jan 24,
96 10:56:13 am

Thus spake Jesse
> > P.S. This is o the subject, but another quesôn arises: can an
> > unconscious persona receive Faith Healing, since the Cas^ng species it is
> > limited by the recipient's faith in the healer?
>
> No. Unconscious people have no choice over their faith. I wouldn't let
> it work, unless the Mys^c could speak with the dead and tell the body
> that "it's okay. I'm here to heal you." Then, the dead guy's Spirit can
> respond...

What about the unconcious person's friends faith? Doesn't that help? If
he's dead than I can see the Faith Healing not working, but if he is
unconcious coulden't some part of him retain faith in the healer?

I suppose it depends on how you dene it.

Dan.

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 09:45:03 +0100
Subject: Chemelon Eclec^cs hompage.

> What is the URL for the page? Please post to the list, as others might
> like to have it as well.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave
The URL for CE's homepage is:

hkp://skynet.bevc.blacksburg.va.us/cee/welcome.html

It's really good, so give 'em a call!
Pal.
wwww
(@ @)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (__) (__)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 23:09:04 -0500
From: John Teske Jr <TeskeJ@AOL.COM>
Subject: Nature Akunement

Hello one and all.

If anyone is following the weather, things here in Wisconsin are RIDICULOUS.

We have had more fr***ing snow than I ever believed could possibly be dumped
on AErth at one ^me. Ugh. The snow drivs tonight are so deep in my
driveway that they are taller than I am, and my four wheel drive vehicle
cannot make it through them. Ugh.

So...to talk a bit....

There is a k/s area known to most people as Nature Akunement that is really
very vague in its descripôn. Especially vague are the descripôn of most
of its subareas. Helpful guidelines for what the area might do are to be
found in the cross-feeding notes, but ovberall the area has likle to know
descripôn. My quesôn is: What does this area do? And when is it
appropriate to call for a roll against the area, either from a player's or a
JM's perspec^ve?

I guess I do have a bit of interpretaôn to the area, but I am curious to
get the input of people on the List to see what others think on the issue.

Also....Ryan...when are we going to hear about the other Mage
Colleges/Universiês. I am curious to see what you think of the other
Colours of Dweomercraev besides the Nasty Black Mages!!!

Later,
John
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:09:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Nature Akunement

On Fri, 26 Jan 1996, John Teske Jr wrote:

> Hello one and all.
>
> If anyone is following the weather, things here in Wisconsin are RIDICULOUS.
And one wonders why nature akunement entered your thoughts. :-)
>
> There is a k/s area known to most people as Nature Akunement that is really
> very vague in its descripôn. Especially vague are the descripôn of most
> of its subareas. Helpful guidelines for what the area might do are to be
> found in the cross-feeding notes, but ovberall the area has likle to know
> descripôn. My quesôn is: What does this area do? And when is it
> appropriate to call for a roll against the area, either from a player's or a
> JM's perspec^ve?
There are some k/s areas which just don't require rolls (well, not many).
For example, anyone with Smithing/Welding at 25+ should be able to make a
horseshoe (for example). In this case, STEEP is required for more
complex operaôns (like cas^ng molds for ne iron gurines for the
winter fes^val evergreen), and it should also reect how quickly you can
churn out simple items when not par^cularly pressed for ^me.
But that s^ll doesn't answer your quesôn. Nature Akunement s^ll
sounds preky vague. Unlike Smithing/Welding, it doesn't actually
*produce* anything. To be fair, two of the sub-areas have a few specic
applicaôns, and I can't really think of much for the others beyond a
general app. for the area. So, I will treat each in kind:

1. Growing Things - You sense the "health" of the plants and "life force"
in the area (rods/steep to 1 furlong, or something). Think of Yoda's
lecture on the Force in Star Wars. A successful roll vs this K/S might
give the HP a sense of forboding if the region is unhealthy due to dark
intervenôn.
2. Natural Cycles - This one has an applicaôn actually printed. HPs
with this sub-area are weather-witches. They can predict the weather
condiôns.
3. Personal Relaônship - Uhhhh....this is another weird one. I guess
that posession of this sub-area might make the nature spirits in the area
feel benevolently towards the HP (based on their STEEP) so long as there
weren't other inuences at work, and the HP isn't roaming around seing
forest res. This seems to be reected well in the cross-feeding.
Addiônally, if the HP can make requests of the spirits (via Green
Dweomercraev for example), they might be more favorably disposed towards
aiding them.
4. Animal Relaônship - Animals like the HP, and trust him/her
innately. The HP will be especially sensi^ve to what the animal is
feeling.
5. Exo^c Places - I don't know why this sub-area was included, but see
the general below.

General - Posession of any of these sub-areas should improve the HPs
ability to commune with and make requests from the specic nature
spirits associated with that sub-area. Rather than being neutral towards
the HP, spirits of the type covered should be slightly to moderately
favorably disposed towards the HP.

This is my interpretaôn of the K/S area. Anyone else have any thoughts?

> Also....Ryan...when are we going to hear about the other Mage
> Colleges/Universiês. I am curious to see what you think of the other
> Colours of Dweomercraev besides the Nasty Black Mages!!!
Ooops! Sorry about this. I intended to work that over the break, but an
incomplete in my course work prevented me from doing so. Progress will
occur at a slow pace, beginning with a revision of Black School to
include the rumored locaôns for the Abbyssal Ins^tute and Ebondark
Colleges (now that I have Epic of Aerth). I think they will most likely
be located on or near the Aeropan con^nent b/c that part of the world is
where most of the civilized naôns ( and thus most magickally advanced )
are located.

As always, suggesôns, input, and most especially help are greatly
appreciated on this project. Email me privately for more info.

--Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 23:40:51 -0500
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9601291218.A11824-0100000@blackbird.birds.wm.edu>

Ryan...

Good interpretaôn of akunement...

One thing: I don't think the Ching-sungese will be too happy to hear that
you believe they are less-civilized than the Aeropans... :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 00:00:04 -0600
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9601291218.A11824-0100000@blackbird.birds.wm.edu> from
"Snead Ryan W" at Jan 29, 96 01:09:53 pm

> There are some k/s areas which just don't require rolls (well, not many).
> For example, anyone with Smithing/Welding at 25+ should be able to make a
> horseshoe (for example). In this case, STEEP is required for more
> complex operaôns (like cas^ng molds for ne iron gurines for the
> winter fes^val evergreen), and it should also reect how quickly you can
> churn out simple items when not par^cularly pressed for ^me.

Actually I have to disagree with you on this point. Granted making a
horseshoe is easy and making ne iron gurines is hard, that is why
you have the dierent task diculês. If you want a game where you
don't have to roll for simple tasks (according to the rules) play CORPS.
Now, of course, for lots of things the mere presence of the K/S Area allows
my players some informaôn or insight that their character should have,
they always have to roll for accomplishing tasks or to get more detailed
informaôn.

I guess I'm just a s^ckler for rules. :)

Dan.

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 15:33:05 -0500

Actually I agree that in a lot of cases no roll vs. a k/s area is necessary.
Rou^ne tasks are just that. for instance

1) The horseshoe issue. Unless the HP was trying to break a speed record.

2) Making armor. Assuming regular ^me guidelines are followed an armorer
will turn out a viable suit of armor. You might roll to determine quality
however.

3) The imfamous Percepôn. Rolling to see the wagon coming down the road
always triggered my sense of the absurd.

You get the general idea. If it is something a person can normally
accomplish why bother with rolling unless there is a special circumstance
involved, speed or quality, or.....

Later
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 02:22:15 -0500

>3) The imfamous Percepôn. Rolling to see the wagon coming down >the road
>always triggered my sense of the absurd.

I don't think anyone wants you to roll to see something obvious. Percepôn
STEEP is more useful in determining whether someone hears the faint sounds of
struggle inside (Percepôn, Physical) or remembers that some bad guys
earlier drove o in a wagon similar to this (Percepôn, Mental). In fact,
I think Mental Percepôn is an underused area. Many is the ^me that a
player has asked for informaôn about a game situaôn and implied that a
high STEEP automa^cally gave them the knowledge they sought. However, when
correla^ng knowledge what they really are askng for is a Mental Percepôn
roll to see if their HP can put two and two together, so to speak. I don't
think this unduly penalizes the HPs, for when they make choices based on
facts I gove it to them. I don't let them have free lunches, though.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 00:40:25 -0500
Subject: Necropolis 9 Evil Objects

Hi gang...

I'm at the beginning stage of the Necropolis adventure with one of my
groups, but I have a slight problem...

What the hell are the 9 Evil Objects which Rahotep so greatly desires?

I mean, I know their names, but like all the objects in Epic of Aerth,
there is no descripôn of what they actually are! Now, I don't give a
sh** what they do, since I think when it makers that is actually covered
in the book. I just want to know what they are. Here is the list, if
you have ideas, PLEASE let me know...thanks!

1. Serpent Ankh: This is actually described as "a distorted perversion of
an ankh, a magickal object in the form of a Serpent so twisted and looped
as to resemble an upside-down ankh." (page 32 if you want to know) I
gure I'll say it's made of a darkened bone...

2. Bloodied Moon: This has no descripôn at all, except that it is found
with Captain Turpur of the bandits during the ambush scene, and that it
"in combinaôn with a Charm he possesses, will each Cri^cal Turn shield
him from 9 points of damage of Heka-engendered sort..." (God this gets to
be a pain in the ass to read! This is in the OP secôn, pg 167)

3. Cleaver of Set: Okay, so it's a meat cleaver, with High Priest
Setem-nefer, and it is called a "Chopper" in his weapon notes and is
menôned in his personal notes (pg 174-175). Anything else that should
be said about it? What does a cleaver look like, exactly?

4. Book of Eternity: On page 82, it says where it's found, but what
should it look like???

Anyway, and so on it goes...the others I won't need to know about for at
least a month... :)

Any help on the ones I menôned would be nice...

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 05:38:43 -0600
Subject: Re: Necropolis 9 Evil Objects
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960201002634.16045A-100000@lictor.acsu.bualo.edu> from "Jesse" at
Feb 1,
96 00:40:25 am

Thus spake Jesse
> I mean, I know their names, but like all the objects in Epic of Aerth,
> there is no descripôn of what they actually are! Now, I don't give a
> sh** what they do, since I think when it makers that is actually covered
> in the book. I just want to know what they are. Here is the list, if
> you have ideas, PLEASE let me know...thanks!

Oh, he wants actual informaôn on magickal items, concrete informaôn,
from a Mythus book. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Sorry. Couldent resist.

> 1. Serpent Ankh: This is actually described as "a distorted perversion of
> an ankh, a magickal object in the form of a Serpent so twisted and looped
> as to resemble an upside-down ankh." (page 32 if you want to know) I
> gure I'll say it's made of a darkened bone...

Unless its on a chain of some sort how can an ankh be upside down? I
might put it on a thong of human skin leather and made of a mumied
snake looped around so that it is bi^ng itself right where a stained
sharpened bone (most likely human, of course) is piercing the side of
the snake to form the cross piece.

> 2. Bloodied Moon: This has no descripôn at all, except that it is found
> with Captain Turpur of the bandits during the ambush scene, and that it
> "in combinaôn with a Charm he possesses, will each Cri^cal Turn shield
> him from 9 points of damage of Heka-engendered sort..." (God this gets to
> be a pain in the ass to read! This is in the OP secôn, pg 167)

Probably this is a golden arc shaped charm worn on a chain about the neck
that is stained with blood. But why is it evil? It protects its wearer
which sounds good to me.

> 3. Cleaver of Set: Okay, so it's a meat cleaver, with High Priest
> Setem-nefer, and it is called a "Chopper" in his weapon notes and is
> menôned in his personal notes (pg 174-175). Anything else that should
> be said about it? What does a cleaver look like, exactly?

A cleaver is a short, wide bladed knife that is used by butchers. I'm
sure you've seen one. You may even have one at home. I'd draw
you a picture but this is ascii. I'd make the Cleaver of Set denitly
blood stained and serrated. The handle should be of bone or carved into
some evil shapes (snake) or both.

> 4. Book of Eternity: On page 82, it says where it's found, but what
> should it look like???

Large, leather bound - snake skin maybe, held shut with a strong lock. The
pages should be of some interes^ng material (human skin?) The text should
contain madening passages describing an alternate view of reality that will
quickly drive the reader insane or some similar hideous informaôn. This
is an evil book aver all. >:)

Where are the other 5 items? I was having fun. Somebody has got to keep
me away from the Kult mailing list, my brain is spiraling into the acceptance
of the most vile and bloody gaming ideas I've ever had. Luckily they are
not spilling into my real life. Yet.

Dan.

-"Crea^vity is piercing the mundane to nd the marvelous."
-- Bill Moyers
"Or crea^vity is piercing the mundane to nd the Truth." -- Me.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 13:08:58 +0100
In-Reply-To: <m0thxfu-000AGVC@Uucp1.mcs.net>

Since we are at it...
It may be my imaginaôn, but wasn't the book of eternity a block
of wood, carved in the shape of a closed book? Found in the underworld
below the temple os osiris?
The more I think about it the more I believe that I found a descripôn of all
the items somewhere, but since I don't have the book here at work, I can't
say for sure. I'll check though.
PAW
wwww
(@ @)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (__) (__)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 15:33:47 -0500
In-Reply-To: <"10615 96/02/01
07:08*/G=Pal-Arild/S=Woje/OU=bodo/O=it/PRMD=telenor/ADMD=telemax/C=no/"@MHS>

Pal
If you can nd the info in Necropolis somewhere, PLEASE let me know
where! I have looked, believe me... :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 12:37:44 -0800
From: Zoltan Grose <zoltan@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: Necropolis

For the record, from page 11.

Nine Objects of Evil:

Serpent Ankh, found in the village of Aartuat: already discussed

Bloodied Moon, is with the desert bandits: already discussed

Cleaver of Set, with the High Priest of Set: already discussed

Book of Eternity, in the island shrine of the Osirium: "Within the
statue are the Book of Eternity..." (page 82)

Scepter of Set, in Area 6: "...lies the vh of the Nine Objects
of Evil, the Scepter of Set. Its Auras..." (page 111)

Blackened Sun, in Area 12 (misprint since there is no secôn header
called Area 12, only 11 and 13): "This is the Blackened Sun. It has
Auras..." (page 121)

Netherladder, in Area 17: "...the Netherladder, a ladder-like amulet
with all the tell-tale characteris^cs of the [other Evil Objects]."

Seal of Shadow, in Area 22: "However, under the cushions in the bokom
of the Supernatural vampire's con there lie hidden two seals. One is
the Seal of Shadow, the eighth of the Nine Evil Objects." (page 138)

Cursed Star, in Area 32: "Atop this sheet of stone is a lightless,
totally black shape in the convenônal form of a star. This thing
is no bigger than a child's hand." (page 148)

With the excepôn of the Star and the Netherladder, none of the objects
are described, to the best of my knowledge. They also have no apparent
magickal funcôns other than to ward o certain curses during the
adventure and those that have already been menôned.

Hope this helps someone.

-Z
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 11:58:26 -0500
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960129234012.22964A-100000@destrier.acsu.bualo.edu>

On Mon, 29 Jan 1996, Jesse wrote:

> Ryan...
>
> Good interpretaôn of akunement...
>
> One thing: I don't think the Ching-sungese will be too happy to hear that
> you believe they are less-civilized than the Aeropans... :)

Actually, my reasoning for this is that Epic of Aerth is wriken
largely from an Aeropan point of view. Therefore, if there is a more
powerful school of Dweomercrav in Ch'in (or Lemuria for Black so far as
that goes!), it would not be perceived so powerfully by reason of being
so distant. When Yale is in your backyard, La Universite de Paris doesn't
seem to be quite as good a school. It's just a maker of perspec^ve.
So far as I'm concerned, the Splendent University can be anywhere you
want, my placement (and everything else for that maker) are intended as
suggesôns.

Believe me, I *realize* that Ch'in, Sung, Lemuria, Azteca, and others are
out there. They just would be unlikely to be the foremost power players
from an Aeropan perspec^ve. Also note that the Sung and Ch'in are ranked
6th in Dweomercraev and 3rd and 4th respec^vely in Mys^cism &
Herbalism. In the East par^cularly, your likely Full Prac^ce
powerhouses are going to be Prists instead of Mages.

=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 16:10:21 -0500
Subject: Fidchell: The Chess of Aerth

Has anyone taken note of this board game detailed on pages 238-240 of
Epic of Aerth? It looks like a really interes^ng game, and I was
wondering how playable it is. I'm considering introducing it as a
character point for a personna I am crea^ng, perhaps even crea^ng an
actual Fidchell board for game play, though probably not for use in my
current gaming group.

--Ryan
rwsnea@bird.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 20:38:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Fidchell: The Chess of Aerth
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9602031558.B14049-0100000@pewee.birds.wm.edu>

Ryan,

I actually drew up a Fidchell board on a big piece of cardboard, and
played it a couple ^mes. I really enjoyed it (although now I don't have
much ^me to do it). What I found is that it is a really good idea to
make some sort of reference page with each of the pieces and what they
can do--it's quite dierent from regular chess.

The other thing I'd recommend is geing a bunch of gures together...
there's a lot more pieces than chess! :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 01:24:07 EST
From: "Prince O. Darkness" <csc3rwm@CABELL.VCU.EDU>
Subject: Abyss

I'm running an AD&D game right now *Lucifer dodges roken
tomatoes and cabbage* that's coming to an end. I think I've nally
convinced the group I game with to let me run a one shot adventure
with some of the Abyss stu I worked up a couple of years back.

I'll be pos^ng any new stu I'm going to be coming up with (and
some of the old stu, if necessary), but I've decided, to save
^me, to go with mixing some sci- systems with Mythus, mostly for
the tech stu. One of the things I'm working on is conver^ng
Traveller's Fire, Fusion and Steel vehicle design rules into some
sort of DJ compa^bility.
The quandry I've come across is this:

Acceleraôn for FF&S starships is measured in Gs. The
problem I've got is that I want to convert the concept into
something a bit more generic, like km per second per second, and
I've got likle to no knowledge on the physics of it. Are there any
formulae to dene exactly how fast a ship weighing x metric tons of
mass pushing y number of Gs would accelerate? I know that, at a
certain fracôn of the speed of light, existence becomes dicult
because of the Einsteinian increase in mass. What acceleraôn
would be a safe limit to prevent problems caused by this increase?
What would be an absolute limit?

Any assistance you can oer would be great. The only
formulae I've been able to research out of my own library is based
around an object falling towards earth (something like v = 32t and
d=16t^2), but this doesn't seem to jive with what I've been able to
hash out with Traveller rules.
Thanks in advance.

Lucifer >:}

-csc3rwm@cabell.vcu.edu |You see me now a veteran
noc^fer@aol.com |Of a thousand psychic wars.
Marvel-RPG List Manager |I've been livin' on the edge so long
AD&D Greyhawk DM, GURPS Marvel |Where the winds of limbo roar
GM, Mythus Fana^c, The Evil God| -- Blue Oyster Cult
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 13:37:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Abyss
In-Reply-To: <9602040624.AA03435@cabell.vcu.edu>

Luc-
What the heck are you doing *running* AD&D??? I can understand if your
favorite GM wanted to run it, but you?!? :)

Anyway, the acceleraôn of gravity is 9.8 meters per second per second.
This is, translated, 1 G. Therefore, I'm sure with some quick
calculator-usage you should be able to translate that into km's per

second squared or something else... G forces don't, as far as I know,
have anything to do with how much something weighs.

As for rela^vis^v eects which occur near the speed of light, I'd
really think hard about trying to come up with some sort of "fantas^c"
travel means--hyperspace, warp drives, or whatever. Then, you can come
up with any plausible explanaôn, and prevent your HP's from dying of
old age going from Earth to Jupiter... :)

Also, I might, if I were you, take a cursory look at the Changling stu
provided to us all in MMM (don't ask me if you don't know...bug someone
else). Some of it might be useful, par^cularly some of the
robot/android info.

Abyss *is* on a Web site or the FTP site, isn't it? And by the way,
whatever happened to Mak Pearson's brand new FTP site he was going to do?

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 13:41:49 -0500
Subject: Free form Spell Cas^ng...

Did anyone ever come up with a good free-form system? even if it isn't for
mythus I'd like to see anything anyone may have come up with...

thanks

Bill

"Why for you put me in the cold cold ground?" Taz
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 10:50:34 -0800
Subject: Re: Abyss

> Acceleraôn for FF&S starships is measured in Gs. The
>problem I've got is that I want to convert the concept into
>something a bit more generic, like km per second per second, and
>I've got likle to no knowledge on the physics of it. Are there any
>formulae to dene exactly how fast a ship weighing x metric tons of
>mass pushing y number of Gs would accelerate? I know that, at a
>certain fracôn of the speed of light, existence becomes dicult

>because of the Einsteinian increase in mass. What acceleraôn
>would be a safe limit to prevent problems caused by this increase?
>What would be an absolute limit?
>
You're quesôn contains the answer in itself. A ship pushing
5 Gs is accelera^ng at (5 x 9.8 = 49) 49 m/s^2

The crucial equaôn to remember is: F=ma
That is to say that the force equals the mass ^mes the acceleraôn.
With that in mind, remember that one G is 9.8 m/s^2. If your spaceship
has a mass of 1,000,000 kilograms, it would require a force of:
(1,000,000 x 9.8 = 9,800,000) 9.8 x 10^6 newtons (newtons being a unit
of force with the dimensions: [(kg)(m)]/s^2) to accelerate in at 1 G.

Now one other equaôn you'll need is: v=at
That is to say the speed of the vessel equals the acceleraôn mul^plied
by the ^me of the travel. That is where your v=32t equaôn comes from.
If you want to travel at 1,000,000 km/hour and get there with a reasonable
acceleraôn of say 2 G: 1,000,000 = (9.8 x 2) x t. Taking into account the
conversions from m/s to km/h we would get an equaôn that reads:
1,000,000 x 1000 x (1/60 x 60) = 19.6 x t
277,777 = 19.6t
14,172=t (sec)
or
4 hours at 2 G. Humanly survivable? I don't know.

So if I got my math right, that should be a intro on the whole acceleraôn
aair. Why did you have 32 instead of 9.8? That is the non-metric number
for Earth's acceleraôn. Hope that clears up a few problems.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 11:55:16 -0700
Subject: Re: Abyss
In-Reply-To: <9602040624.AA03435@cabell.vcu.edu> from "Prince O. Darkness" at
Feb 4, 96 01:24:07 am

I'm not a physicist; nor do I play one on TV. I am, however, an engineer,
and as such was blessed with the requirement of ~5 quarters worth of basic
and advanced stu. I can throw some stu at you, but I don't know how
detailed you need-- or even, game-mechanically speaking, how detailed you'd
even *want*.

> Acceleraôn for FF&S starships is measured in Gs. The
> problem I've got is that I want to convert the concept into
> something a bit more generic, like km per second per second, and
> I've got likle to no knowledge on the physics of it.

This part is easy. A 'g' is 9.8 meters/sec/sec (or 32 feet/sec/sec if

you're a Vargaarder). 1 g is the acceleraôn towards the ground felt on
Earth-- to some approximaôn.

> Are there any
> formulae to dene exactly how fast a ship weighing x metric tons of
> mass pushing y number of Gs would accelerate?

You've just answered your own quesôn. If you're "pushing" y g's, you're
accelera^ng at y*9.8 meters/sec/sec.

> I know that, at a
> certain fracôn of the speed of light, existence becomes dicult
> because of the Einsteinian increase in mass. What acceleraôn
> would be a safe limit to prevent problems caused by this increase?
> What would be an absolute limit?

Acceleraôn is irrelevant to rela^vis^c mass change. It's velocity
that's the key here. As an object approaches 3 x 10^8 meters/sec (the speed
of light, or 'c'), its mass gradually increases, requiring more force (F) to
achieve the same accelleraôn (a), because F = m * a. This eect is
virtually unno^ceable un^l substanâl fracôns of the speed of light are
reached (about 0.1 c), and usually irrelevant un^l about 0.9 c is reached.

In other words, if you want to keep accelera^ng at the same rate, you have
to push harder as you approach the speed of light. If you have, say, an
engine which puts out a constant force, the closer you get to c, the lower
the acceleraôn.

You can accelerate as much as your body can take. For an "in shape" adult
human, 1 g is normal, 3 g is uncomfortable and damaging over the long term,
6 g is *really* uncomfortable, will cause one to pass out, and will cause
small blood vessels to rupture over an extended accelleraôn, leading to
such yummies as brain damage, strokes, and permanent blindness. Young
children will generally be beker o, as their bones are sover and deform,
absorbing shock.

Don't forget that in an absence of acceleraôn (constant velocity), an
object will experience *no* acceleraôns, and will thus be in "free fall",
or "weightless", as common parlance has it. Extended free fall (several
months or more) necessitates *major* exercises to keep the body in shape,
and even then the calcium leaks from the bones, causing permanent weakening.
Going back to 1 g aver very long 0 g expediôns will be painfully
dicult, if not impossible, unless your universe has some kind of medical
miracle drug which prevents the body from "geing used" to 0 g.

> Any assistance you can oer would be great. The only
> formulae I've been able to research out of my own library is based
> around an object falling towards earth (something like v = 32t and
> d=16t^2), but this doesn't seem to jive with what I've been able to
> hash out with Traveller rules.

> Thanks in advance.

To be honest, I've never really read the Traveller rules, so I don't know
what games they play with the laws of physics. If they have "inerâl
dampeners", or other magic "Treknology", you can preky much ignore the 6 g
limitaôn. If they have warp drives, jumpgates, or hyperspace, rela^vity
preky much ies out the window as well.

Good stu to read for more info about this is *hard* science côn.
Robert Heinlein, Robert Forward, and Arthur C. Clarke are good for a start.
For 0 g "acclimi^zaôn", _Stardance_ and _Starseed_ by Spider and Jeanne
Robinson are a necessity; as is Heinlein's "It's Great to be Back!"

Aaron Brezenski

=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 11:05:06 -0800
Subject: Re: Abyss

At 01:37 PM 2/4/96 -0500, Jesse wrote:
G forces don't, as far as I know,
>have anything to do with how much something weighs.

It has everything to do with how much you weigh. On Earth (1 G) I weigh
at 180 pounds. On the Moon (1/6 G I think) I would weigh 30 pounds. My
mass remains the same, probably something around 90 kg.

-Zoltan
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 19:05:05 EST
Subject: Re: Abyss
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960204133250.11820A-100000@lictor.acsu.bualo.edu>; from "Jesse" at
Feb 4,
96 1:37 pm

> What the heck are you doing *running* AD&D??? I can understand if your
> favorite GM wanted to run it, but you?!? :)

Aver my last game died (Earthdawn. A good system, but the
players decided to go up against a Horror and were squished), I let
my players vote on a game system for me to run. The one they could
agree on was AD&D (actually, it was the one the least people hated
most, but no one actually voted for it as their number one choice).

> Anyway, the acceleraôn of gravity is 9.8 meters per second per second.
> This is, translated, 1 G. Therefore, I'm sure with some quick
> calculator-usage you should be able to translate that into km's per
> second squared or something else... G forces don't, as far as I know,
> have anything to do with how much something weighs.

That should do it, thanks :)

> As for rela^vis^v eects which occur near the speed of light, I'd
> really think hard about trying to come up with some sort of "fantas^c"
> travel means--hyperspace, warp drives, or whatever. Then, you can come
> up with any plausible explanaôn, and prevent your HP's from dying of
> old age going from Earth to Jupiter... :)

Actually, I wanted to know what the prac^cal speed limit of
sublight travel was. I've got a likle something together for
translight travel.

> Also, I might, if I were you, take a cursory look at the Changling stu
> provided to us all in MMM (don't ask me if you don't know...bug someone
> else). Some of it might be useful, par^cularly some of the
> robot/android info.

I'm not going to solicit individuals to send me copyrighted
materials from MMM, but, then again, I wouldn't report anyone who
did so, unsolicited, of course.

> Abyss *is* on a Web site or the FTP site, isn't it? And by the way,
> whatever happened to Mak Pearson's brand new FTP site he was going to do?

Yeah, someone put it up on a Web site. I was impressed
anyone liked it that much. :)

Lucifer >:}

-csc3rwm@cabell.vcu.edu |You see me now a veteran
noc^fer@aol.com |Of a thousand psychic wars.
Marvel-RPG List Manager |I've been livin' on the edge so long
AD&D Greyhawk DM, GURPS Marvel |Where the winds of limbo roar
GM, Mythus Fana^c, The Evil God| -- Blue Oyster Cult
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 00:46:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Abyss

In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960204190506.002c6d4c@pop.slip.net>

> G forces don't, as far as I know,
> >have anything to do with how much something weighs.
>
> It has everything to do with how much you weigh. On Earth (1 G) I weigh
> at 180 pounds. On the Moon (1/6 G I think) I would weigh 30 pounds. My
> mass remains the same, probably something around 90 kg.

Not to get touchy or anything...something measured in m/s/s does not
contain any sort of provision for mass.

By your example, if I'm in outer space, I should never have any G-forces
at all, since I don't weigh anything? Or something... :)

What I was saying was, that no maker how heavy you are, if you are
accelera^ng at 19.6 m/s/s you will feel 2 G's worth of pressure.

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:19:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Abyss
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960205004455.29107A-100000@lictor.acsu.bualo.edu>

Caveat lector: I stopped my pursuit of physics when I failed Modern
Physics (mul^variable calculus was rather over my head).

On Mon, 5 Feb 1996, Jesse wrote:

> > > G forces don't, as far as I know,
> > > >have anything to do with how much something weighs.
> >
> > It has everything to do with how much you weigh. On Earth (1 G) I weigh
> > at 180 pounds. On the Moon (1/6 G I think) I would weigh 30 pounds. My
> > mass remains the same, probably something around 90 kg.
>
> Not to get touchy or anything...something measured in m/s/s does not
> contain any sort of provision for mass.
>
> By your example, if I'm in outer space, I should never have any G-forces
> at all, since I don't weigh anything? Or something... :)
>
> What I was saying was, that no maker how heavy you are, if you are
> accelera^ng at 19.6 m/s/s you will feel 2 G's worth of pressure.

Weight is an interes^ng thing. It is mass * acceleraôn due to
gravity (i.e. mass * force holding one down). Where gravity is, say, 1/6
of earth's (oven abbreviated as 1/6 of a G, where G is an arbitrary
'unit' of gravity equal to the acceleraôn at the Earth's surface due to
the force of gravity: approximately 9.8 m/s^2), one weighs considerably less.

In space, one is indeed nearly weightless *provided* there are no
g-forces playing around one at the ^me, i.e. one is simply coas^ng or
making minor adjustments. During liv-o, as one accelerates against
the gravity forces, G's become tremendous, diko in ^ght turns in an
airplane.

Weight is a consequence of G-forces, not vice-versa as you implied in
sta^ng that one shouldn't experience G-forces *because* one doesn't
weigh anything -- that's inverted. One doesn't weigh anything *because*
one has no gravitaônal or other similar forces aec^ng one.

Go review your classical mechanics for a non-rela^vis^c but reasonable
overview :-)

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 14:49:06 -0800
Subject: Re: Abyss

At 12:46 AM 2/5/96 -0500, Jesse wrote:
>Not to get touchy or anything...something measured in m/s/s does not
>contain any sort of provision for mass.

Correct, but it is very much involved in weight. Two dierent things.

I think you're missing the nuances between weight and mass. I'll akempt
to be brief and concise:

An object made of maker always has a mass. Even in the middle of space.
A 100 kilo spaceman oa^ng in deep space may not feel his own "weight,"
but it would s^ll take work to move him. If I wanted to accelerate him
at 1 G,or 9.8 m/s^2, it would take (F=ma) 98 newtons of force.

Now, how does that relate to weight? The Earth is con^nously accelera^ng
us downwards at 1 G. This acceleraôn against our mass makes us feel heavy.
Weight = force (I believe). To nd your mass, you take out the acceleraôn
of the Earth from what the scale says. That is why you "weigh" more or less
depending on where you are, or more accurately, how many G's are aec^ng
you.

>By your example, if I'm in outer space, I should never have any G-forces
>at all, since I don't weigh anything? Or something... :)
>

You weigh nothing if there are no G's ac^ng on you.

>What I was saying was, that no maker how heavy you are, if you are
>accelera^ng at 19.6 m/s/s you will feel 2 G's worth of pressure.

You wouldn't feel a thing if it was just you accelera^ng (all at once).
You only feel yourself be pushed into the back of your spaceship. Superman
can accelerate at will to what G he likes as long as his whole body does
it as the same ^me.

It's a likle strange, but makes sense if you think about it.

-Zoltan
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 21:18:47 EST
Subject: Re: Abyss
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960206224906.002c4bf8@pop.slip.net>; from "Zoltan
Grose" at Feb 6, 96 2:49 pm

Wow...a science discussion on Mythus...never thought I'd see
it here...:)

> I think you're missing the nuances between weight and mass. I'll akempt
> to be brief and concise:
>
> An object made of maker always has a mass. Even in the middle of space.
> A 100 kilo spaceman oa^ng in deep space may not feel his own "weight,"
> but it would s^ll take work to move him. If I wanted to accelerate him
> at 1 G,or 9.8 m/s^2, it would take (F=ma) 98 newtons of force.
>
> Now, how does that relate to weight? The Earth is con^nously accelera^ng
> us downwards at 1 G. This acceleraôn against our mass makes us feel heavy.
> Weight = force (I believe). To nd your mass, you take out the acceleraôn
> of the Earth from what the scale says. That is why you "weigh" more or less
> depending on where you are, or more accurately, how many G's are aec^ng
> you.

I think the confusion here is that I wasn't really concerned
about the force needed to achieve 1G of movement, but, rather, how
fast that movement was, which is constant regardless of what your
mass is. The force needed is already being handled for me by the
rules system I'm using (Traveller), which does increase according to
the mass of the ship. However, all speeds in traveller are measured
as acceleraôn in Gs, and I wanted to know what a km/s^2
translaôn was.
At least, that's where I think the confusion started.

Lucifer >:}

-csc3rwm@cabell.vcu.edu |I am the one the only one,
noc^fer@aol.com |I am the god of kingdom come,
AD&D GM, Mythus Maniac, Greyhawk Guru|Gimme the prize.
GURPS Marvel PBEM GM, Marvel-RPG Mang| -- Queen
Join Marvel-RPG today! Send 'subscribe marvel-rpg' or 'info
marvel-rpg' to majordomo@stargame.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 21:45:00 -0800
Subject: Re: Abyss

However, all speeds in traveller are measured
>as acceleraôn in Gs, and I wanted to know what a km/s^2
>translaôn was.
> At least, that's where I think the confusion started.
>
But what fun confusion.

I take it then you know your answer. 1 G = 0.0098 km/s^2
You might want to convert to parsecs or astronomical units (au)
to make the game sound more "spacey."

-zoltan
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:09:34 EST
Subject: Re: Abyss
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960207054500.002c197c@pop.slip.net>; from "Zoltan
Grose" at Feb 6, 96 9:45 pm

> But what fun confusion.
>
> I take it then you know your answer. 1 G = 0.0098 km/s^2
> You might want to convert to parsecs or astronomical units (au)
> to make the game sound more "spacey."

I want to keep things in km for space combat, parâlly to
avoid having separate systems for ground and space combat (as many
games do), and to keep the combatants close to one another, to
simulate a more 'high adventure' style of combat, as seen in Space:
Above and Beyond and Star Wars. For long-distance travel, I'll
probably provide workable conversions to AUs (parsecs are just too
large for sublight travellers to cover...I'll be handling tranlight
travel through more fantas^c means).

Lucifer >:}

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 11:56:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Abyss

> Wow...a science discussion on Mythus...never thought I'd see
> it here...:)

Yeah...for cryin' out loud, thanks a lot. "Game to get away from
school," they said...sure... :)

> I think the confusion here is that I wasn't really concerned
> about the force needed to achieve 1G of movement, but, rather, how
> fast that movement was, which is constant regardless of what your
> mass is. The force needed is already being handled for me by the
> rules system I'm using (Traveller), which does increase according to
> the mass of the ship. However, all speeds in traveller are measured
> as acceleraôn in Gs, and I wanted to know what a km/s^2
> translaôn was.
> At least, that's where I think the confusion started.

Exactly Lucifer. I was just trying to answer your original quesôn,
without geing into mass-weight discussion. Zoltan, I understand it
perfectly well, even if I can't write it correctly! :)

Now, stop making me THINK!!

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 00:00:56 -0600
Subject: Re: Abyss
Feb 7, 96 10:09:34 am

Thus spake Prince O. Darkness
> > I take it then you know your answer. 1 G = 0.0098 km/s^2
> > You might want to convert to parsecs or astronomical units (au)
> > to make the game sound more "spacey."
>
> I want to keep things in km for space combat, parâlly to
> avoid having separate systems for ground and space combat (as many
> games do), and to keep the combatants close to one another, to
> simulate a more 'high adventure' style of combat, as seen in Space:
> Above and Beyond and Star Wars. For long-distance travel, I'll
> probably provide workable conversions to AUs (parsecs are just too
> large for sublight travellers to cover...I'll be handling tranlight
> travel through more fantas^c means).

What are you going to be using for translight travel? Let me know
what you develop for this. I am very interested. I currently do
not have a completely acceptable Sci-Fi system to use and I want to
begin puing one together. I kind of like using G's for acceleraôn
but I am also thinking of using Stukerwarp drives from 2300AD.

Stay tuned for Semiology and Symbol Magick for Mythus. First is a
series!

Dan.

-"Science is based on the irraônal belief that because we cannot
percieve reality all at once, things called '^me' and 'cause and
eect' exist." -- Scok Adams.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 15:37:46 +0100
From: "M.A. Trickek" <mat3@LEICESTER.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Abyss

Hi, I'm nere here so, in the ^me to follow while I try and get to
grip with the discussion, you must forgive me if I go over old stu.
In essence, please do not ame me *that* much. My re retardent
skin is under repair due to joining other mailing groups and geing
amed by them for bringing up old data. Thank you ;-)

Distance measurements... basically, you want to keep to the simplest
and most universal measurement that you can. What is that? I here
you say... light. Yeah, I know *Traveller: The New Era* does that (I
think I saw someone menôn that game), but that's because it is a
dead useful unit of measurement. Using kilometers, IMHO, would not
be sensible as most distances will become non-sensical. For example,
everyone knows that light goes *really, really* fast and some might
even now that it takes about 8 minutes for light to get to Earth.
Hmm... how many people could imagine 93,000,000 miles (150,000,000km,
ish). 500 light seconds (ish), however, is a nice workeable number.

More distances that roll of the top of my head...

Moon - 1 (and a bit) light second.
Sun - 500 light seconds
Mars - 261 light seconds

Ummm... well that's it really. If you used AU's then you're going to
get silly results for small distances (i.e., how far to the Moon?
about 1/500th of an AU), or dav ones for large distances (forgive
me, but I can't be bothered to work out the 4.5ish light years in
light seconds to the nearest star). S^ck with light years and
light seconds

Cheers for listening to the rant.

--MARK
mat3@le.ac.uk

"Beware all ye who go in by me"
-Dante, Inferno (Canto III)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 13:33:58 EST
Subject: Re: Abyss
In-Reply-To: <m0tkPaE-000AFeC@Uucp1.mcs.net>; from "Dan T Williamson" at Feb
8, 96 12:00 am

> > I want to keep things in km for space combat, parâlly to
> > avoid having separate systems for ground and space combat (as many
> > games do), and to keep the combatants close to one another, to
> > simulate a more 'high adventure' style of combat, as seen in Space:
> > Above and Beyond and Star Wars. For long-distance travel, I'll
> > probably provide workable conversions to AUs (parsecs are just too
> > large for sublight travellers to cover...I'll be handling tranlight
> > travel through more fantas^c means).
>
> What are you going to be using for translight travel? Let me know
> what you develop for this. I am very interested. I currently do
> not have a completely acceptable Sci-Fi system to use and I want to
> begin puing one together. I kind of like using G's for acceleraôn
> but I am also thinking of using Stukerwarp drives from 2300AD.

Each civilizaôn will, most probably, have dierent means
for translight travel, with some civilizaôns using more than one
means. For example, Terran ships will most probably be able to
construct a 'warp bubble' a la Star Trek, while other races will
have such ships only for exploraôn and colonizaôn, relying on
jumpgates to service their core regions. Like I said, I'm s^ll
hashing out the details, but anything I come up with, I'll post.

Lucifer >:}

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 16:08:23 EST
Subject: Re: Abyss
In-Reply-To: <380E4B7346@daisy.le.ac.uk>; from "M.A. Trickek" at Feb 8,
96 3:37 pm

> Hi, I'm nere here so, in the ^me to follow while I try and get to
> grip with the discussion, you must forgive me if I go over old stu.
> In essence, please do not ame me *that* much. My re retardent
> skin is under repair due to joining other mailing groups and geing
> amed by them for bringing up old data. Thank you ;-)

No prob :) You'll nd this list rarely indulges in aming
or other such ac^viês, I think.

> Distance measurements... basically, you want to keep to the simplest
> and most universal measurement that you can. What is that? I here
> you say... light. Yeah, I know *Traveller: The New Era* does that (I
> think I saw someone menôn that game), but that's because it is a
> dead useful unit of measurement. Using kilometers, IMHO, would not
> be sensible as most distances will become non-sensical. For example,
> everyone knows that light goes *really, really* fast and some might
> even now that it takes about 8 minutes for light to get to Earth.
> Hmm... how many people could imagine 93,000,000 miles (150,000,000km,
> ish). 500 light seconds (ish), however, is a nice workeable number.
>
> More distances that roll of the top of my head...
>
> Moon - 1 (and a bit) light second.
> Sun - 500 light seconds
> Mars - 261 light seconds
>
> Ummm... well that's it really. If you used AU's then you're going to
> get silly results for small distances (i.e., how far to the Moon?
> about 1/500th of an AU), or dav ones for large distances (forgive
> me, but I can't be bothered to work out the 4.5ish light years in
> light seconds to the nearest star). S^ck with light years and
> light seconds

The main problem I have with the Traveller: TNG system of
one combat hex = 30,000 km (a light second, or half a light second,
I'm working from memory) is that it's not par^cularly cinema^c. I
want to keep combat within visual ranges (basically), which means
measuring things in kms. I'll most probably use kms for smaller
stellar travel, like from a planet to a moon, and AUs for travel
between planets within a system (where they start becoming more
managable). And travel between planets is most likely going to be
more easily measured in several AUs anyway, as I intend to set up a
system to determine where each planet is during any par^cular ^me,
which be as much as 2.52 AUs, not including the distance that must
be maintained from the sun. If you take that into account, it can
get as high as 5 AUs or more! That's just travelling to the next
planet along the line. Someone travelling to Pluto or the Oort
cloud (which, as I've set things up, must be cleared before
translight travel is possible), would span a distance of 40.44 AUs
and 25000AUs respec^vely (yes, I know I cut the what is currenly
believed to be the distance to the Oort Cloud by half, but it's just
one of the current theories on astronomy I'm going to be toying
with...and, yes, this means it'll take about six months to get
from Terra to depart from the system). If I were to use light
seconds to determine the distance to the Oort Cloud, I'd end up with
12500000 ls, which is a bit unwieldly.
But thanks for the suggesôn. Keep 'em coming.

Lucifer >:}


=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 14:00:12 +0100
Subject: Re: Abyss

> Cinema^c approach <

The distance in combat was 0.1 light seconds (hence 30,000km). I can
understand what you say about a cinema^c approach... Traveller's
vector-based system can seem a bit clinical (and ^me consuming ;-)
at ^mes. Okay then, to make sure that I don't put my foot in it
again coul dsomeone take the ^me to send me a basic synopsis of the
idea for Abyss (?), if that is what it is called? At least for the
sci- variant that Lucifer is working on?

Cheers...

-MARK
Mark Trickek
mat3@le.ac.uk

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 14:28:09 +0100
Subject: Low fantasy

Does anyone have any guidelines for running low fantasy campaigns? I
currently use Jesse's system of 75% STEEP for campaigns, but I was
thinking more on the lines of Heka-genera^ng K/S. In running a low
fantasy campaign, would you merely ignore these K/S, use them as
their non-magickal skills (i.e. Herbalism wouldn't give you access to
Herbalism Cas^ngs, but would otherwise operate as per Mythus I), or
something else?

This is a quesôn that I have been thinking about for some ^me. I
take the second of the opôns, but some^mes this leads to an
unsa^sfactory character. Help, please.

--MARK
Mark Trickek
mat3@le.ac.uk

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 15:32:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Low fantasy
In-Reply-To: <4EE6F63AAF@daisy.le.ac.uk>

On Fri, 9 Feb 1996, M.A. Trickek wrote:

> Does anyone have any guidelines for running low fantasy campaigns? I
> currently use Jesse's system of 75% STEEP for campaigns, but I was
> thinking more on the lines of Heka-genera^ng K/S. In running a low
> fantasy campaign, would you merely ignore these K/S, use them as
> their non-magickal skills (i.e. Herbalism wouldn't give you access to
> Herbalism Cas^ngs, but would otherwise operate as per Mythus I), or
> something else?

Well, I was running an arguably 'low-fantasy' game for a while, set in
the Republic of D*r*k*n, on the world of M*st*r* (trademarks censored to
avoid indecency ;-) ). The background, roughly speaking, had some very
basic magic being common as a dabbling in high society (i.e. everyone
educated at a 'real' school would learn a few minor magicks, just enough
to, oh, light a re (i.e. a match), and maybe dry out some damp cloth),
but most people would never actually *see* it in acôn. True magic,
the full-edged Dweomercraev etc. would not be seen except in the
rarest of circumstances, and most HPs had very limited Heka and Cas^ngs.

I constructed a list of 'standard' Cas^ngs which HPs with a Cas^ng area
would get -- and only those which they were able to cast! The list was
based on the Cas^ngs included in the Mythus book, with some addiônal
selecôns for each Dweomercraev School, Priestcraev Ethos, and the
other K/S Areas not covered in the sampling.

It worked fairly well, and magic was kept very rare.

It's a maker of taste, but my current game (in which magic is rather
common, and Heka is spent like water, minor magickal traps are all over
the place, and minor enchantments are preky easy to come by) ows a
likle beker with all the magic in place. Dunno why, maybe it's the
addiônal opôns that the players have :-)

=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 06:50:43 -0600
Subject: Re: Low fantasy
In-Reply-To: <4EE6F63AAF@daisy.le.ac.uk> from "M.A. Trickek" at Feb 9,
96 02:28:09 pm

Thus spake M.A. Trickek
> something else?

I would not suggest reducing the STEEP (I haven't felt it necessary), but
I do suggest reducing the amount of cas^ngs and Heka avaliable to wizards.
I used a greatly reduced heka-genera^ng chart. I think it came from
the amount of heka generated according to the K/S descripôns, which is
dierent from the Mythus Magic chart. Then I also only gave my players
far fewer cas^ngs per K/S Area. Instead of using the STEEP as a percentage
amount of total cas^ng to get, I think I gave them 1 cas^ng of the
highest grade and then one more of each grade less than that and then
an addiônal cas^ng per additonal cas^ng K/S Area they had. So
a D-Craever with a steep of 41 and 10 other cas^ng areas would get a
whopping 20 cas^ngs total, among all of their cas^ng K/S Areas. Most
got lots less.

Dan.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 03:37:56 +1100
From: Alwis Hohlweg <ahohlw@AUDIO.APANA.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Hello & Low fantasy
In-Reply-To: <4EE6F63AAF@daisy.le.ac.uk>

I Just Joined this list and this is my rst post (hooray!) Anyhow, I
havn't been playing DJ for very long (2-3 months) but I think I'll be
playing it much longer, as it an excellent system. You've probably heard
enough opinions on the greatness of DJ vs other games, so I won't go on
about it!

On Fri, 9 Feb 1996, M.A. Trickek wrote:


> something else?
>
> This is a quesôn that I have been thinking about for some ^me. I
> take the second of the opôns, but some^mes this leads to an
> unsa^sfactory character. Help, please.
>

This is the rst main rule change I have done to Mythus. Firstly I ruled
that full prac^ôner mul^plier be reduced to *5. Secondly, new cas^ng
levels are gained every 15 STEEP rather then every 10 STEEP. Thirdly,
total Heka is halved. Obviously the numbers can be changed to suit the
campaign.

And now a quesôn - what is Mythus I? Assuming that it is the rst
release of Mythus, what other Mythuses are there?

Alwis Hohlweg
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 13:38:12 -0500
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.960211032409.26557C-100000@audio.apana.org.au>

On Sun, 11 Feb 1996, Alwis Hohlweg wrote:

> I Just Joined this list and this is my rst post (hooray!) Anyhow, I
Rah! Rah! Rah! (or if you prefer Ra Ra Ra!, even if it is (Re'))

> havn't been playing DJ for very long (2-3 months) but I think I'll be
> playing it much longer, as it an excellent system. You've probably heard
> enough opinions on the greatness of DJ vs other games, so I won't go on
> about it!
We don't mind a likle RPG tou^ng. It makes us all feel good. ;-)

> This is the rst main rule change I have done to Mythus. Firstly I ruled
> that full prac^ôner mul^plier be reduced to *5. Secondly, new cas^ng
> levels are gained every 15 STEEP rather then every 10 STEEP. Thirdly,
> total Heka is halved. Obviously the numbers can be changed to suit the
> campaign.
::sigh:: I don't understand this facinaôn with low fantasy seings.
Aver all, how are your players supposed to ght Rahotep's minions if
all you give them is a Summon Chewing gum Formula and a Wickaame charm?
Don't get me wrong, Jurry-Rigging is a great skill, but it doesn't have the
same are as a Fireash Cantrip. Oh well, to each his/her own.

> And now a quesôn - what is Mythus I? Assuming that it is the rst
> release of Mythus, what other Mythuses are there?
I'm not sure what you are referring to here. There is a '1' on the spine of
Dangerous Journeys:Mythus. This refers to the book number in the series
of the Mythus gaming system. In addiôn are the following:

0) Mythus Prime (streamlined Mythus, improved over the Prime
published in Mythus)
2) Mythus Magick (list and list of cas^ngs & more!)
3) Epic of Aerth (Aerth sourcebook, great background)
4) Necropolis (published adventure for ADVANCED HPs,
good source for undead and their ilk)
5) Aerth Beasâry (Crikers from Interior, Subterran,
and Outer Aerth)
"6) Phaeree Beasâry" (new material currently being created
and compiled by members of this list
for free Net distribuôn!)

In addiôn to these are Mythic Masters Magazine (erraka and expansion),
and Journeys Magazine (more expansion and some campaing fodder). Be VERY
impressed with yourself if you manage to get a hold of these, or the JM
screen.

Well, happy searching and happy gaming!

--Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu

P.S. The only books I would say are an absolute must for the complete Mythus
experience are Mythus and Mythus Magick (or Mythus for low magick
campaigns). There are no 'supplementary core rule books' in this gaming
system.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 19:44:35 -0500
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9602101345.A9299-0100000@blackbird.birds.wm.edu>

On Sat, 10 Feb 1996, Snead Ryan W wrote:

> ::sigh:: I don't understand this facinaôn with low fantasy seings.
> Aver all, how are your players supposed to ght Rahotep's minions if
> all you give them is a Summon Chewing gum Formula and a Wickaame charm?
> Don't get me wrong, Jurry-Rigging is a great skill, but it doesn't have the
> same are as a Fireash Cantrip. Oh well, to each his/her own.

SUMMON CHEWING GUM FORMULA (Dweomercraev, General, Grade I)

Time: Special Other Heka Costs:
Area: Special R&D: Nil
Distance: Self Other: Nil
E/F/M: By means of this formula, the Dweomercraever causes the instant
appearance of a small wad of chewing gum within his own mouth. The gum
is quite tasty, but if used with abandon over many years, it will cause
tooth decay. There is a rumored Grade II equivalent (Summon Dentyne
Formula) which does not have the tooth decay side eect. Note that it
takes as many CT's to rid oneself of the s^cky substance, which is created
around one's teeth, as the caster has 10's of STEEP.
A Special Failure does *not* result in the failure of the spell, only
that (a) it is pre-chewed and (b) it appears in the caster's hair and on
his face as well as in his mouth.
There is rumored to be a Grade IV Cas^ng (Spit Chewing Gum Formula)
which causes the eect of a special failure upon a pre-chosen target.

Have a surreal day,

=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 18:02:57 +0100
Subject: Low Fantasy

Mythus I... someone has already answered this (probably), but all I
was referring to was the likle number on the side of the book (i.e.,
rst in the Mythus books). Sort of shorter than saying "Mythus: The
Main Book" or something on similar lines.

With regards to low fantasy, I think I shall use a combinaôn of the
various methods:

1. Mul^ple beginning HP's STEEP by 0.75 (sorry, but I kinda like
this... I've had beginning HPs able to beat up a Demonic Vampire
before - I must have done something wrong (rst game) but it
sure lev an impression);
2. Restrict certain Cas^ngs (people may have tons of magick, but
not everyone has access to the powerful Cas^ngs);
3. Let the player's decide whether they wish to have learnt the K/S
for Cas^ngs of for use of the skill.

The third point is the most important, I suppose. I might even
reduce Heka.

Technically, the above isn't a "low fantasy" campaign. Pendragon,
IMO, is more on the lines of low-fantasy. The Deverry quadrilogy of

Katherine Kerr is another, beker, example. Basically, magic is so
rare that it is feared as demonic, or it is thought merely to be a
legend.

Anyway, cheers for the advice... if I've stuck to my own ideas and
that's wrong, well sorry.

While I think about it, does anyone have any more informaôn on use
of the Heka-Forging K/S? It was going to be printed in Dangerous
Ideas #6, but I haven't got a copy of that (if it was produced) thus
any informaôn that people can send me would be most useful.

Once again, cheers.

--MARK
Mark Trickek
mat3@le.ac.uk

=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 17:23:01 -0500
Subject: Spell cas^ng...

Did anyone ever come up with a good free-form spell cas^ng system? I'd
like to see anything anyone may have come up with...

thanks

Bill

"Why for you put me in the cold cold ground?" Taz
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 17:52:33 -0500
From: "Ray A. Dion" <rayd@GLEN-NET.CA>
Subject: Re: Free form Spell Cas^ng...

William A Helm asked:

>Did anyone ever come up with a good free-form system? even if it isn't for
>mythus I'd like to see anything anyone may have come up with...
>
>thanks
>
>Bill

I played around with the idea of a free-form spell system for a
while. I never got anything really concrete but these were my thoughts
(based mostly on the specic cas^ng rules):

-replace Heka Genera^ng K/S's such as Herbalism and Dweomercraev
with K/S areas that deal with the manipulaôn of magickal energies from
dierent Planes/Spheres (see pg 305-307 of the Mythus Magick book for a
list of possible eects and their respec^ve Plane/Sphere energy source)

This change means that users of magick are mose like a channelers.
They channel energy from certain planes to the material and then sculpt that
energy into a specic form. A more skilled channeler can open a gateway
for this energy with a greater chance of success.

-Use the Laws of Magick or the Cannons of Religion as some sort of
indicaôn of the diculty and/or cost of the eect. The Laws of Magick
are probably beker suited for this.

The energy, therefore, comes not from the channeler, but from a
plane or sphere through a gate. This gate might be opened throught the will
of the caster or through some ritual specic to the plane/sphere/caster.

As you can see, this is very scetchy.

Other ideas that come to me now are:

-opening gates too big to control which could lead to wild eects
or harm to the caster.

-what becomes of heka? maybe a personal source of material energy
that is used to open the iniâl gate.

-that could mean that actual eects cost nothing. the channeler
uses his heka to open a gate (if he has the right knowledge) and the Laws of
Magick determine the diculty of crea^ng the eect.

Anyway, that's what I've been thinking. Comments?

Mage: The Ascenôn is a WhiteWolf game that has (in my opinion) a
very good free-form magic system based of consensual (spelling?) reality and
belief.

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 21:15:04 -0400
From: Aran Mull <PUBACM@SAFNET.ALBANY.EDU>

Organizaôn: University at Albany
Subject: Hello, anyone playing?

Hurrah! I thank Prince O. Darkness for cluing me into the list, (the
rest of you can blame him). I was afraid my DJ stu was just going
to gather dust for the rest of eternity. Let me open the box (cough)
and look for something to throw out here.

If anyone has actually started a PBeM DJ game I've never done it and I'd love
to lurk to gure out how it's done.

Anyone playing in the Albany New York area please give me a call.
I'm in withdrawl (1 year++).

Aran
(518)797-9541
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:38:09 +1300
From: Daniel Bullen <DRJB@WAIKATO.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: Hello, anyone playing?

Just a quick note to second what Aran said, ie "If there's a Mythus PBeM
I'd love to play". If I had the networking skills I'd do it myself.
Daniel
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 00:51:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Low Fantasy
In-Reply-To: <827F74218D@daisy.le.ac.uk>

All right all right...sheesh...

D.I. #6, coming today. Going to go the f-ing thing done right now... :)

Not going to do a special mailing list. Going to put it here. Hope you
all don't mind. If so, sorry. Maybe I'll try to do the mailing list
thing next ^me. I just hate dozens of "me too" messages. Dull. Okay.
Bye. Going to work on it now...

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 00:54:19 -0500

Subject: Re: Spell cas^ng...

Free-form:

Working on it. Going to be for a druid who wants to transform into
mul^ple crikers. Going to be essenâlly a single Cas^ng with a TON
of opôns, which will increase/decrease everything from Type (Eyebite to
Ritual), Duraôn (called Time in MM), size, creature type (mammal, sh,
etc.). Each change will increase/decrease the Grade, and any extra Heka
which might be required.

This will be free-form. Make something up as you go. Maybe not exactly
what you had in mind, but what the f***. :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 00:56:25 -0500
In-Reply-To: <MAILQUEUE-101.960211211504.256@safnet.albany.edu>

Aran-
Take a trip down the thruway, man...

Jesse
(Bualo)

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 01:39:09 -0500
Subject: D.I. Issue 6 Part I

Okay, here it is at LAST! I nally got o my electronic ass and
formaked part I. Part II of D.I. 6 will be sent out tomorrow. It is,
at this point, a list of Cas^ngs for Heka-Forging. I will be adding to
it, but it's just too late now. This is one of the more important
issues. Save it!!! Print it out!!! It is good! And useful! :) Here:

------------------------------------><-------------------------------------WELCOME TO...

DDDD AAA NN N GGG EEEEE RRRR OOO U U SSS
D D A A N N N G G E R R O O U U S S D.I. #6:
D D AAAAA N N N G EEEE RRRR O O U U SS Whenever I
D D A A N NN G GGG E R R O O U U S Get Around
D D A A N N G G E R R O O U U S S To It!
DDDD A A N N GGG EEEEE R R OOO UUU SSS :)

A forum for the free & unmolested IIIII DDDD EEEEE AAA SSS
exchange of ideas submiked to me I D D E A A S S
by members of Mythus-L and all our I D D EEEE AAAAA SS
friends who love the Mythus Game I D D E A A S
and the Dangerous Journeys system. I D D E A A S S
Read it and hope for the future! IIIII DDDD EEEEE A A SSS

---------------------------------------------------------------------------Dangerous Ideas is an electronic-only (unless you print out a copy for yourself) forum for any and all players and Journey Masters who use or merely
enjoy the Dangerous Journeys Mul^-Genre Game System and the Mythus Fantasy
Role-Playing Game, wriken by Gary Gygax and Dave Newton, now unfortunately
owned by T$R. Note that almost everything discussed in this (not too)
periodical is in one way or another related to Dangerous Journeys and the
Mythus game. The game and all its related copyrights are owned by T$R, and
are totally used without any kind of permission whatsoever. That's okay,
since no one here is planning on stealing any of their business, making any
money, or actually publishing this thing for any kind of sale. Unfortunately.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------Dangerous Ideas is put together by me, Jesse Gris, but is really wriken by
the members of Mythus-L, who submit their ideas to me for inclusion herein.
By doing that, they do NOT relinquish any of their rights to their created
material, so if you plan on using some of it anywhere except in your own home,
do us all a favor and ask...Of course, if anyone ever really DID want any of
this for publicaôn, I think we'd all have general heart troubles...
You can join (and I would suggest it migh^ly) Mythus-L by wri^ng to
LISTSERV@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU and saying "Subscribe Mythus-L <Your Real Name>" as
the body of the message. If you need help, ask whoever you know who knows
about mailing lists, or whoever gave this to you in the rst place. Or, if
all else fails, write to me and I'll tell you--if you pay me. :)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------Send anything you want to say |
to : jgris@acsu.bualo.edu | Send ALL mail to that address. Submissions
-------------------------------< _ought_ to have "SUBMISSION" or something to
Each submission will be tagged | that eect as the subject. I will need to
with the name and e-address of | see things from most of you for this likle
the author--for copyrights and | thing to con^nue. Without your support, DI
other potenâl legal garbage. | will be nothing more than a memory...thanks!
Ask the author for permission >-------------------------------------------to use any of his/her ideas... | Since DJ prints no more: check out ARIA! :)
===============================^============================================
TABLE OF CONTENTS:

1. Hi Again...A message from me
2. Heka-Forging Fun
===========================================================================
1. Hi Again, everyone!
Okay, so it's been about forever since I've goken around to puing
together an issue. Sorry. I just got out of the mood for a while, and by the
^me I was back in the mood--term papers. (Uh..huh huh huh...School sucks...)
Then, when I had ^me--vacaôn. Then, aver that, something else. You get
the idea. So anyway, here we are again, trying to sow the seeds of crea^vity
amongst ourselves. This issue is going to mainly contain Steve Gulluerud and
John Teske's very good "renement" of the original Heka-Forging rules. I
like them immensely, and I wonder if there are other K/S Areas which are ripe
for the same sort of treatment...
So, thanks for wai^ng. Here it is, may it last more than 5 more issues
before I get ^red again. And send me something interes^ng! :) I would like
to do a future issue on nothing but magick items created by us. Read the List
for more details on that one later...
===========================================================================
2. The Good Stu. Heka-Forging Rules Revision: Steve Gullerud (I lost his
address, so nd it if you need to.)
Here it is! I will allow Steve's introducôn to really get you into it. I'm
just the messenger, you know! :)

Heka-Forging: a revised method
by John Teske and Steven Gullerud

This is an introducôn to a revision of the Heka-Forging K/S area. A
while back, there was a great deal of discussion on how to use Heka-Forging,
in par^cular concerning how to resolve the Cas^ngs with the K/S Area
descripôn. Aver this debate died down, we akempted to incorporate some
of the ideas presented in Mythus-l into the Heka-Forging system. Eventually,
this grew into a full rewrite of the system, including Cas^ngs, success
tables, and the general K/S Area descripôn.

We should acknowledge the members of Mythus-l, as many of them are
prac^cally co-contributers to this revision (i.e. we borrowed lots of good
ideas). Par^cular people worth menôning are Makhew Berry for the whole
concept of impermanent magic items, Edward Bromely for the work on Permanence
and False Target Cas^ngs, and Mike Hill for some addiônal spells that we
included. Of course, Jesse has been invaluable for providing the push to
get the work on Heka Forging started in the rst place.

Now, a quick disclaimer before we begin. Some of the philosophy on how
Heka-Forging works is inevitably êd to how common you want magic items
to be in your campaign. The rules presented here are designed to t
John Teske's campaign. However, it should be possible to modify the

revision here to t magic heavy and magic light campaign worlds. There
are also two paths for Heka-Forging in this revision. One relies only
on the Cas^ngs to produce items, while the other is almost en^rely
roleplaying-driven. Each path has its own advantages and disadvantages,
and each could stand alone as the means to create magical items in a
game world.

Now, without dragging on, here are the revisions to Heka-Forging:

Heka-Forging

The Heka-Forging K/S Area remains much as the text in Mythus describes
it. This secôn of our revisions will focus on general claricaôns
and changes to the text as found on pages 166-168

First, the Heka gained from Heka-Forging is as stated in in the K/S
descripôn instead of the table at the beginning of Mythus Magick. Namely,
magickal energy gained is equal to STEEP plus the average of the persona's
PMPow and PNPow. If only Physical based Heka is used, P Trait is added
instead.

Second, the Heka-Forging Sub-Areas are not gained automa^cally with
increase in STEEP. Gaining the knowledge necessary to properly enchant a
class of items is a long and involved process. As such, the rules for
gaining new Heka-Forging Sub-Areas are as described on p. 135. Namely,
10 APs and 10 weeks of study are required to gain a new Sub-Area. However,
no roll is required to check if the persona has learned the Sub-Area
successfully. HPs may or may not have all possible Sub-Areas at the ^me
of character creaôn. This detail is lev up to the GM, though the rst
Sub-Area is gained automa^cally with acquisiôn of the Heka-Forging K/S
Area. Thereaver, Sub-Areas must be purchased as described above.
Because Heka forgers must be able to channel large amounts of Heka, each
Sub-Area beyond the rst increases the prac^ôner's Heka Aperture by
10 points.

The minimum STEEP required for each Sub-Area is listed below. Note that
this table is changed somewhat from the one listed in the K/S descripôn.
A persona may decline to purchase a new Sub-Area and s^ll increase STEEP
in Heka-Forging. Also, Sub-Areas do not have to be gained in order, so
long as the persona has the necessary STEEP to purchase them.

Grade Minimum STEEP Sub-Area
1 None Enchanted Mechanisms
2 21-30 Enhanced Object Quality
3 31-40 Heka Reservoirs
4 41-50 Detecôn/Informaôn
5 51-60 Armor/Weapons
6 61-70 Defensive/Oensive
7 71-80 Cas^ng Storage

8 81-90 Skill Bearing Items
9 91+ Spirit-Holding Devices

Armor/Weapons provides the ability to forge defensive
armor along with oensive weaponry. These items may have
enhanced physical properês, but may not be othewise
enhanted with defensive or oensive Heka Eects. For example,
armor enchanted to provide protecôn from Spirtual akacks
is beyond the range of this Sub-Area.

Defensive/Oensive items enables the HP to manufacture
or enchant dweomered items which perform a Cas^ng-like
Eect which damages a target or protects the wielder. Also
included under this Sub-Area are rings and other miscellaneous
items that give bonuses to worn armor and wielded weapons.

There are two paths for the creaôn of enchanted items using Heka-Forging.
The easiest method u^lizes the Cas^ngs found in Mythus Magick. These
Cas^ngs create 'impermanent' items, which can be disjoined by other
Cas^ngs. The many Heka-powered conveniences found on Aerth are constructed
using this method. As such, most Heka forgers nd employment making
impermanent items. Funcôns of these items are limited by the Cas^ngs
available to the Heka forger. If no Cas^ng grants a desired property, a
new one must be researched. Masters of impermanent item creaôn
may use Cas^ngs which provide a resistance to disjuncôn, making the
greatest impermanent items almost permanent in nature. Personas who make
use of this process will have likle diculty in acquiring Heka-Forging
Cas^ngs, though Materia is s^ll expensive.

The second path of item enchantment is much less common, but more
powerful. By combining the skills of Heka-Forging, knowledge of the Laws
of Magick, and abiliês in various Heka-using K/S Areas, items can be
created which are immune to disjucôn. These items are truly permanent,
save from physical destrucôn or the Unbinding Ritual. The process of
enchantment of a par^cular item requires unique Rituals which are developed
through research and experimentaôn. These Rituals are highly dependent
on the Heka forger's will and spirit, and therefore only work for the
individual who developed them. Much of the materia used in this 'ar^s^c'
process must be built into the item in quesôn by the Heka forger. Thus
Heka forgers following this path usually possesses K/S Areas such as
Gemsmith/Lapidary and Smithing/Welding. This requirement also makes
experimentaôn a very expensive aair.

Impermanent Item Creaôn

Impermanent item creaôn u^lizes the Heka-Forging Cas^ngs to
imbue Heka into an item. Of course, these Cas^ngs may be dispelled
as easily as any other. A few Cas^ngs give resistance from disjuncôn,
but these are only available to the most able Heka forgers.

Most of the Heka-enabled devices on Aerth are of the impermanent sort.
Cas^ngs such as Voliôn Ritual have allowed Heka forgers to build various
labor saving and luxury-oriented devices. Unfortunately, these items are
s^ll expensive, and are generally only aordable for the wealthy. While
impermanent weapons and armor do exist, these are usually made under
contract by governments for their military forces.

Note that likle or no roleplaying is required for the enchantment of
items using this method. However, if the prac^ôner does not have a
Cas^ng that will yield exactly the eect desired for a new item, there
is no choice but to research a Specialized Cas^ng.

Changes/Claricaôns from Original K/S Descripôn

Heka preparaôn and Heka-genera^ng substances grant no bonuses for
the success of item creaôn. Certain Cas^ngs now require Heka-genera^ng
substances for their successful use. Also, the quality of the object to be
enchanted has no bearing on the success or failure of the forging, other
than whether or not the object qualies as awless or perfect.

An already enchanted item cannot be further enchanted by this method of
Heka-Forging, unless that enchantment has been disjoined or has otherwise
expired.

Many of the Heka-Forging Cas^ngs have been revised, some have been
en^rely rewriken, and some new ones have been added. A summary of
these changes will follow.

Iniâl Steps

Likle is required in the way of preparaôn for item enchantment.
Assuming the prac^ôner has the necessary Cas^ngs, the forging should
be completed quickly. Prepare Item Ritual, Evaluate Item Formula, and
possibly Cleanse Item Ritual and Purity Spell will be required before
other Heka-Forging Cas^ngs are laid upon the item.

Of course, the persona must have all associated Heka-Forging Sub-Areas
in order to proceed. Otherwise, the akempt is doomed to failure.

Heka-Forging Equipment

Unless the Heka forger wishes to construct the item to be Heka-Forged (and
gain a DR bonus thereby), very likle equipment is necessary for impermanent
item enchantment. At most, a simple forge is needed beyond the Materia
required for Heka-Forging Cas^ngs. The only excepôn to this usually
occurs when the prac^ôner wishes to enchant an object with a con^nuous
Heka Eect. The Heka required in this case (x100 that of the Cas^ng cost)
almost always requires access to a large Heka reservoir.

Determinaôn of Success

Once all desired Cas^ngs have been ac^vated, a roll is made to
determine the success of the forging. Special Failure means the destrucôn
of the item, Failure means the item is unchanged, Success indicates the
Cas^ngs had the intended eect on the item, and Special Success means
one or more of the Cas^ngs had a slightly enhanced Eect.

This roll is made against the prac^ôner's Heka-Forging STEEP, with
the DR determined by the table found on p. 167 of the Mythus book. The
modiers to that table have been changed, as listed below:

Heka-prepared item no modier
Heka-genera^ng substance being worked no modier
Each addiônal funcôn of the item
beyond the rst +1 DR harder, up to 3
Flawless or perfect substance being
worked -1 DR easier
Prac^ôner has constructed the item
being enchanted -1 DR easier

If the Heka-Forging akempt fails but the object remains, the Heka forger
may akempt to enchant the object again. However, it must once again be
Evaluated, Prepared, and so on as the forging akempt will have contaminated
the item.

Permanent Item Creaôn

Permanent item creaôn requires more eort from both the player and
the persona than that of impermanent items. Because much of the
process is focused on crea^vity and roleplaying instead of Cas^ngs, the
work involved may be as much or as likle as the GM desires. What follows
are suggested guidelines for the GM to follow.

Much of the ar^s^c creaôn process depends on the mind and spirit of
the Heka forger. Standard Rituals are thus useless, as what will work for
one Heka forger will most likely fail ukerly for another. A Heka forger
must devise Rituals which will imbue powers and enhancements into the forged
item. A prac^ôner may incorporate knowledge from other Cas^ng-genera^ng
K/S Areas in order to make a wider range of devices.

It is expected that Heka forgers will develop their own characteris^c
styles, using certain K/S Areas and methods in their devices. The GM should
make the use of a K/S Area (especially one that is Cas^ng-genera^ng)
dicult and ^me consuming if that prac^ôner has not used it before in
combinaôn with Heka-Forging.

Iniâl Steps

The iniâl step in the ar^s^c method requires the player of the Heka
forger to submit a proceedure for the creaôn of a desired item. This
proceedure should at least include the following:

1) Planned funcôns of the device
2) Descripôn of how Rituals will be used to forge these funcôns.
3) Cost and type of Materia used in the process
4) All K/S Areas used in the item's forging

Once this plan has been submiked, the GM may ask for any claricaôns
before allowing the prac^ôner to con^nue. Note that the Heka forger must
possess all applicable Heka-Forging Sub Areas in order to akempt the
proposed plan. Also, the persona should construct the item to be forged, or
at least be present during its construcôn. The forging of a sword bought
from the local weaponsmith will certainly fail! As in the making of
impermanent items, the object in quesôn must have Prepare Item Ritual
and Evaluate Item Formula cast upon it. An item might require Cleanse,
Purity, or be completely unsuitable for enchantment even aver the work
done to make the item in the rst place.

The GM may also require a change in the submiked proceedure if desired.
The HP might be required to search out unique Materia for the item, or
quest for a forgoken scrap of knowledge vital for the success of the
forging akempt. Details here are lev to the imaginaôn of the GM.

Heka-Forging Equipment

The exact cost and nature of equipment required will vary greatly
depending on the type of item to be forged and the method used to
enchant it. At the very least the Heka forger will need any equipment
needed to construct the item in quesôn. The GM may add other
requirements as desired for a par^cualar item. It is suggested that,
unlike Alchemy, the equipment required for Heka-Forging be rela^vely
inexpensive unless a par^cularily powerful item is planned. This will be
compensated by the cost of Materia used by the Heka forger. Of course,
if the Heka forger is also performing Alchemical operaôns or working with
par^cularily exo^c materials (like adaman^ne), then both expensive
equipment and expensive Materia will be required.

Materia Cost

Materia cost will also vary with the item to be forged. For the best
possible DR, the Heka forger will have to construct an unsurpassed quality
item - incurring all associated costs. Much of the Materia required by
the Rituals to be performed must be built into the item during its
construcôn. Thus, building the item in the rst place may be a very
expensive proposiôn. If the forging is then unsuccessful, most of the
Materia will not be recoverable.

As a general rule of thumb, refer to the Materia Costs of the Heka-Forging

Cas^ngs to arrive at standard costs for the Rituals used in the ar^s^c
method. The Materia Cost for a Heka-Forging Cas^ng will correspond to the
cost required to achieve a similar, but somewhat restricted, Eect for a
permanent item. For example, the use of Defense Bonus I to create +5 armor
costs 5,000 BUCs. For the same 5,000 BUCs, a Ritual that grants a +5
defense versus re-based akacks may be performed.

Note that a signicantly novel proceedure should require experimentaôn
before it can be used in a item. Of course, any Materia consumed by such
experimentaôn cannot be reused or recovered for future Heka-Forging
operaôns.

Research Time

Research ^me will vary with the past experience of the prac^ôner. If
the persona has created similar items in the past using similar methods,
as likle as one week will be needed to design each Ritual. If the
prac^ôner is using an Cas^ng-genera^ng K/S Area that has not been
used in a previous forged item, a month or more of ^me will be required
for each Ritual.

Base Chance of Success

Before any roll is made for the success in the Heka-Forging akempt,
rolls may be required by the GM against Smithing/Welding, Gemsmith/Lapidary
and other K/S Areas used in the basic item construcôn. These rolls
may be used to determine the quality of the item des^ned to the subject
of a Heka-Forging eort.

The ar^s^c method in Heka-Forging requires an in-depth understanding
of the Laws of Magick - in par^cular the Law of Ritual - as they apply to
the dierent Cas^ng disciplines. While crea^ng Rituals that perform
similar funcôns to Heka-Forging Cas^ngs is usually not dicult,
crea^ng Rituals combining Heka-Forging with other Cas^ng-genera^ng Areas
without this knowledge is nearly impossible.

The base STEEP that is used to determine success of item creaôn is
taken from the lower of the STEEPs in Heka-Forging and Magick when other
Cas^ng-genera^ng K/S Areas are involved in making that item. Other
Cas^ng-genera^ng K/S Areas used will contribute 10% of their STEEPs toward
the base chance of success. Even if a persona does not possess the Magick
K/S Area, there will s^ll be a small chance of a successful Heka-Forging.
If the only Cas^ng-genera^ng K/S Area required in the Rituals is
Heka-Forging, then STEEP in Heka-Forging is the base chance of success.

Diculty Ra^ng Determinaôn

Assigning a DR for a Heka-Forging operaôn can be as simple or as
complicated as the GM wishes. The following is a fairly complex system
which seeks to reward the establishment of a style of Heka-Forging, as

well as base DR on the power of the item to be forged.

To determine a DR for the Heka-Forging operaôn, assign Cas^ng
Grade equivalents for all powers of the item that are derived from
Cas^ng-genera^ng K/S Areas. Also consider Heka-Forging Cas^ngs for
impermanent item creaôn for similar powers. Compare these Grades with
the maximum Grades given by the prac^ôner's STEEPs in those K/S Areas.
Then assign a base DR as follows:

Powers are at least 2 Grades lower than Caster's max Grades Easy
Powers are at least 1 Grade lower than Caster's max Grades Moderate
Powers are at most the same Grade as Caster's max Grades Hard
Powers are at most 1 Grade higher than Caster's max Grades Dicult
Powers are at most 2 Grades higher than Caster's max Grades V. Dicult
Powers are at most 3 Grade higher than Caster's max Grades Extreme

This base DR is then modied by the following consideraôns:

+1 DR harder for every power beyond the rst. (max of +3 penalty)
+1 DR harder for every level of quality below Unsurpassed of the
Heka-Forged item. (max of +3 penalty)
+1 DR for every Heka-genera^ng K/S Area used in the Heka-Forging
Rituals that the Heka forger is unused to combining with
Heka Forging.
-1 DR if Heka forger is using an established style with K/S Areas
the prac^ôner has previously combined with Heka-Forging.
-2 to +2 DR based on crea^vity of plan submiked to the GM for
crea^ng the item.
-1 to +1 DR based on cost of Materia used in plan, compared with what
GM determines as a standard amount.

Success and Failure

Because the Heka forger is manipula^ng Heka at a fundamental level during
the creaôn of a permanent item, success and failure are not very clearly
dened. A successful roll will some^mes yield an item with unforseen and
undesired side eects. Likewise, a failure might s^ll produce an
enchanted item, but quite possibly one possessing useless or even baneful
properês. The GM is recommended to take the cost, ^me, and eort the
persona (and player) put into the process of crea^ng the item when
determining actual item properês. If the persona cut corners, place
limitaôns or detrimental side eects on the item. On the other hand,
if the persona put extraordinary crea^vity and resources into the item,
consider adding bonuses or addiônal funcôns to the item.

To clarify this, check the following suggesôns for the dierent
possible results of the nal success roll:

Special Failure: Either the item is destroyed ukerly or the item is
cursed, and possesses abiliês opposite to what was

desired. Note that the Heka forger may be unaware that
this has taken place! In any case, the prac^ôner
will have to scrap the previous proceedure and develop
a new one, if this was the rst ^me a par^cular
item was akempted.

Failure: The item is unchanged or has useless properites. (a
Spellsong-aiding harp that instead plays "It's a Small
World" con^nuously, loudly, and o-key would be an
example of this!) The prac^ôner may have to
modify the proceedure somewhat before trying again.

Success: The item has the desired abiliês, but may have quirks,
addiônal powers, or weaknesses depending on the
quality of work that went into it. If desired,
repea^ng this proceedure may yield an item with
fewer side eects.

Special Success: The item works only as desired if eort was somewhat
lacking. If sucient research was done, the item will
have enhanced or addiônal abiliês. Note that
repea^ng this proceedure will not reproduce another
oustanding item unless another Special Success is
rolled
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 10:57:59 +0100
Subject: Re: Free form Spell Cas^ng

William A Helm asked:

>Did anyone ever come up with a good free-form system? even if it isn't for
>mythus I'd like to see anything anyone may have come up with...
>
>thanks
>
>Bill

>> Mage: The Ascenôn is a WhiteWolf game that has (in my opinion) a
very good free-form magic system based of consensual (spelling?) reality and
belief. <<

Another possibility, if you can be bothered to wade through the
rules, is *Aria.* The design sequences are good and, with minimal
alteraôn, can be converted to take into account the Mythus
mechanics. It's use of Archetypes and Dominions can be used as
"skills," with dierent types of mages therefore catered to (i.e.,
Elementalists wan^ng a reball could use Create-Energy

Archetype-Dominion). Energy could come from, as Ray A. Dion
suggested, dierent planes... instead of my waing, take a look at
Aria.

Just a thought.

--MARK
Mark Trickek
mat3@le.ac.uk

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 09:51:42 -0500
Subject: Low Fantasy (well, low magick) revisited

One thought which crossed my mind *aver* my last post was one could
simply use the Changeling magic rules. To re-cap:

(*) Heka per normal

(*) ONLY those cas^ngs described in the Mythus Main Book (Mythus (1) )
are available, and only those appropriate areas actually produce
Heka/have any eect. No Schools of Dweomercraev, no Ethos of
Priestcraev.

(*) NO Full Prac^ce.

(*) Cas^ngs every 20 STEEP: 1-20 = Grade I, 21-40 = Grade II, etc. No
cas^ngs above Grade V.

I *think* the complete list of Heka-genera^ng K/S Areas is:

Apotropaism, Demonology, Dweomercraev, Endurance, Astrology, Divinaôn,
Exorcism, Fortune Telling, Herbalism, Mediumship, Metaphysics, Mys^cism,
Occul^sm, Priestcraev, Religion, Sorcery, [Theology,] Witchcraev, and
Yoga.

Now, if one is going to restrict magic like this, in the hopes of having
it a large and mysterious force, I would strongly suggest dispensing with
*any* non-magickal methods of blocking Cas^ngs (e.g. Dodging, rolling vs
SMCap or whatever), simply because otherwise magick is very weak and
something *not* to be afraid of once one has encountered it.


=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 14:10:41 +0100
Subject: Low-magick

> Now, if one is going to restrict magic like this, in the hopes of having
it a large and mysterious force, I would strongly suggest dispensing with
*any* non-magickal methods of blocking Cas^ngs (e.g. Dodging, rolling vs
SMCap or whatever), simply because otherwise magick is very weak and
something *not* to be afraid of once one has encountered it. <

Maybe you could explain this in terms of aura... aec^ng anything
with a strong (?) living aura is impossible, or v. dicult (i.e.,
increase the Grade of the appropriate Cas^ng so that it is possible,
but only at, say, Grade VII-IX). This way, you could have magick
aec^ng the natural world quite strongly, but not people.

Just a thought.

--MARK
Mark Trickek
mat3@le.ac.uk

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 13:16:10 -0800
from "Mike Phillips" at Feb 10, 96 07:44:35 pm

> Mike Phillips wrote:
>
> SUMMON CHEWING GUM FORMULA (Dweomercraev, General, Grade I)

[Remainder of hilarious cas^ng snipped]

I'd like to nominate this contribuôn for the category of Most Amusing Post
in the 1996 Mythus-l Awards. (No such thing? Well, there ought to be....)

Oh, and thanks for D.I. #6, Jesse. I was hoping I wouldn't have to fend
o a bunch of requests for the Heka-Forging revision by telling everyone
to bug you. :) I can sympathise with the havok a busy schedule can cause...
If anyone wants to submit items created using the permanent creaôn method
found in D.I. #6, it would be greatly appreciated. John and I got bogged
down before we could create any ourselves.

Steven

(Going back into lurk mode before anyone can ask about the Item Rumor
project. There's been too many announcements already about its imminent
compleôn. Let's just say it's geing closer...)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 07:33:56 GMT
From: Mark Goode <fn95@DIAL.PIPEX.COM>
Subject: Tales from the Yarban nights

Please be gentle with me, this is my rst ^me.

I have recently aquired the full set of Mythus books and, impressed by the
scope for character developement, I have decided to give the system a whirl.

I am working on a campaign loosely based on the tales from the Arabian
nights, set on and around the Yarban peninsula. I plan to have the
adventures and encounters nested within one another in the same way as
Scheherezade's tales were. I have rejected the region's pantheon (as
described in the epic of Aerth) in favor of a single deity, which I think
will reect more closely the 'feel' of medeival Arabia.

Quesôns:

Has anyone experimented with this type of campaign before?

If so have you any advice or suggesôns?

Is there a computer program around wich will speed up the combat?
(If not I will try to write one, but it may take a while)

Many thanks

Mark Goode
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 18:04:16 -0500
Subject: Mike Paulus

Mike, are you s^ll on the list? If so, please reply to me rather than to
the list... thx.

Gary
Gary Spechko - hkp://www.dsc.t8000.com/jag/

Thore de Bethune - maintainer of the Avacal Web page
hkp://www.dsc.t8000.com/avacal/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 19:39:06 -0500

at the risk of sounding Naive...what is Aria?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 21:23:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Tales from the Yarban nights
In-Reply-To: <MAPI.Id.0016.006e3935202020204535413030303030@MAPI.to.RFC822>

On Mon, 12 Feb 1996, Mark Goode wrote:

> Please be gentle with me, this is my rst ^me.
>
> I have recently aquired the full set of Mythus books and, impressed by the
> scope for character developement, I have decided to give the system a whirl.
Excellent! You have chosen *wisely*. :-)

[snip, campaign background]

> Quesôns:
Answers: (Well, mine anyway.)

> Has anyone experimented with this type of campaign before?
To put it in ME terms, there is nothing new under the sun. Though I've
never played such a campaign before.

> If so have you any advice or suggesôns?
Yeah, actually I do. Priestcraev in Mythus really lends itself best to
a pantheis^c (or even mul^-pantheis^c) mul^verse. You could solve this
by ignoring the Ethos system, or only allowing one Ethos in the
campaign. Either way makes more sense than to have a diety who has
Priest A of Sunlight, and Priest B of Gloomy Darkness. Naturally,
choosing one Ethos over another could have a signicant impact on the
avor of the campaign.

> Is there a computer program around wich will speed up the combat?
> (If not I will try to write one, but it may take a while)
No, there isn't. However, there are some suggested rules for speeding
combat out there somewhere. Does anyone else on the list have them lying
around?

Geing back to the diety thing. With all the mys^c sects of Orthodox
Chrisânty, Judiasm, Mithraism, Zoroastrianism, ect. running around at
that ^me, I personally don't get the sense of medieval arabia being
especially monotheis^c on Earth, though many of the individual people
there certainly were. But hey, it's your vision, not mine anyways! ;-)

Have fun! And Happy Mythusing!

--Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 22:14:55 EST
Subject: PLEASE READ! Support your favorite game system!

I've been discussing things with TSR's online
representa^ve, Sean Reynolds, recenly, concerning the possible
future of DJ. The main problem, according to him, is that DJ
doesn't seem to be a big seller, and the only way TSR would publish
DJ material is if it thought that it would end up having a great
deal of support. Therefore, I've decided, jaded as I am, to dive
head rst into a leker wri^ng campaign to TSR. I encourage every
man, woman and child reading this to send a snail mail leker
(e-mail isn't par^cularly eec^ve...it's a bit too easy; snail
mail shows some real dedicaôn) to TSR in support of DJ. If you're
married or have a boy/girlfriend who games, get them to send a
separate leker. Have everyone in your gaming group send a leker,
don't just sign a pe^ôn. Ask to run a Mythus game at your local
convenôns, and have people sign peiôns there. Send in ar^cles
to Dragon and Dungeon magazine. Most importantly, do not, repeat,
do not be indignant or insul^ng. I think most of us can agree that
what TSR did to Gygax, DJ, and GDW was reprehensible, but things
have died down, perhaps enough to let those guys over at TSR take a
good, long look at the gem they've got. Ran^ng and raving will
only harm our chances of ever geing DJ back in print. I strongly
encourage composing your own leker, but for those at a loss as to
what to say, I humbly propose the following:

---<Clip here>--
<your address>
<date>

Mr. James Ward
TSR, Inc.
201 Sheridan Springs Rd.

Lake Geneva, WI 53147

Dear Mister Ward,
I am wri^ng in support of the Dangerous Journeys
Mul^-Genre Game System, formerly published by Game Designer's
Workshop. It is my opinion that the game system is an innovaôn in
game design that, with the industry clout, adver^sing power, and
development capabiliês of TSR, Inc., would become one of the most
popular fantasy games on the market, perhaps even surpassing your
already popular AD&D line. I do not believe that the producôn and
sale of the game, however, would result in a loss of sales for TSR,
Inc.'s current product line. Dangerous Journeys would be most
appropriately aimed at the mature gamer, one who is interested in
the arul complexity and realism that the game presents. AD&D, of
course, would most probably remain as the ag ship of TSR's product
line, bringing more and more new gamers into our beloved hobby.
Dangerous Journeys, however would appeal to those desiring a high
level of complexity and realism in their games (which I have seen a
move towards in AD&D, with the Player's Opôn handbooks).
In conclusion, the ^me and mood of the industry is right
for the republicaôn of this revoluônary game system. Economic
problems, on behalf of GDW, retarded the popularity of this system
originally. With TSR's adver^sing power, it is no doubt that
the republicaôn of the game system would result in overwhelming
popularity, both from gamers currently loyal to TSR, and among those
who have strayed from patronage of TSR products. It would,
doubtless, achieve the same product loyalty from the gaming
community that is so strong among those that the game did reach.

Sincerely,

<signature>

<name>
<^tle, if applicable>

---<clip here>--
If you disagree with what I've wriken above, that's cool,
compose your own leker, post it to Mythus-L for others to use, and,
most importantly, send it in to TSR today! This may seem dras^c to
some, but it is simply the only way that we'll see Mythus in
popular publicaôn. Show them your loyalty, and they will see DJ
in a new light, and, if enough people send in their lekers, they
will respond!

Yours in hope,

Rodney W. Morris (Lucifer >:})

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 00:42:20 -0500

> Is there a computer program around wich will speed up the combat?
> (If not I will try to write one, but it may take a while)

Whispered voice: "If you write it, they will come."

Anyway, I'd say, get a fast-thinking JM. Get the players really
familiar with it. And use the "CT ends when slowest guy goes once" rule.

Jesse

-Looking for a new .sig
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 02:17:56 -0600
Subject: Re: PLEASE READ! Support your favorite game system!

I Agree!! that is an excellent idea. Let me tell you another thing
that I have no^ced about DJ. Honest to god truth, why was dangerous
journeys not selling? WHy? My opinion was because noone HEARD OF IT!!!
How did I nd out about DJ? I was bored of same ole same ole, and
looked around and found some book in the used book secôn. apparently
someone had sold it back to the store, I didnt really think it was going
to be all that good, but the name Gygax caught my akenôn so I bought
it. NEver in my life heard of DJ un^l that day.
So anyways, I talk to people. "yeah, I about played all the
systems they have out there."
"oh, have you tried dangerous journeys?"
"Huh? Oh, no..whats that?"
They ALWAYS ask me what's that. Let me tell you, there's two
kinds of people that I've met, those who dont know what in the world
Dangerous Journeys is, and those who totally adore the system. Never
showed the game to a person who didnt love it. One thing i've no^ced is
that if someone just tossed a big huge 400 page book at my feet and say
"here, this is a neat rpg." i would probably shrug it o because of
lack of ^me. Which is another thing, I think if TSR ADVERTISED Mythus
would be as big, if not bigger than AD&D, but the rules should be slowly
fed to the readers (there are those inspired enough to read hundreds of
pages to gure out the new system but most are humble w/AD&D). TSR
should revise the book, and adver^se the hell ouka it, I know it would
be a hit if they'd just give it some publicity. Make sure when you send
the leker to TSR you emphasize the fact that Mythus is either loved, or
unknown.. and it isnt far from the truth one bit.
-Ken
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 10:42:46 +0100
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960213021124.20753B-100000@monarch.papillion.ne.us>

While I agree that it would be marvelous to get DJ back in buisiness,
I wouldn't want TSR to write scenarios! I have played a few and I didn't
much care for them. To darn predictable and simply boring. I know it
depends a lot on the GM, but we have been playing now for more than
8 years, and this fellow is the best GM I've ever played with.
And can we trust the folks at TSR to write as good source material for DJ
as Gary and Dave? I think not. I wouldn't much like to see elf, half-elf, dwarf
and halling faries, and other AD&D abnormaliês.
TSR has with their AD&D system proven that they have great diculês
to come up with new ideas, or at least implemen^ng them.
PAW
wwww
(@ @)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (__) (__)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 07:26:11 -0500


>I am working on a campaign loosely based on the tales from the Arabian
>nights, set on and around the Yarban peninsula. I plan to have the
>adventures and encounters nested within one another in the same way as
>Scheherezade's tales were. I have rejected the region's pantheon (as
>described in the epic of Aerth) in favor of a single deity, which I think
>will reect more closely the 'feel' of medeival Arabia.
>
>Quesôns:
>
>Has anyone experimented with this type of campaign before?

Monotheis^c or Arabian? No, but it shouldn't be a problem. Just mix and
match spells from all the dierent Ethos. I never liked them anyway. Too
right-brain and restric^ve.

>If so have you any advice or suggesôns?

Read Lawrence's "Seven Pillars of Wisdom" to get more feel for the culture
and aitudes toward life of desert tribes.

>Is there a computer program around wich will speed up the combat?
>(If not I will try to write one, but it may take a while)

Prac^ce, prac^ce, prac^ce. But seriously, have characters, and the GM,
roll up 10 or 20 iniâ^ves beforehand. Use gures. As GM, use ^me
managment ruthlessly - i.e. "you have 15 seconds to tell me what you want to
do this round..." This will help, but nothing works beker than small
numbers and prac^ce.

>Many thanks
>
>Mark Goode

Good luck.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 08:28:24 -0500

> at the risk of sounding Naive...what is Aria?
>

Just the best thing to happen to gaming since DJ :)

Anyway, Aria is a rolplaying system put out by Last Unicorn
Games. Its current print run is sold out and LUG has promised
that the next prin^ng is at the printer and should be out
Real Soon Now (tm).

If you have Web access, check out :

hkp://coos.dartmouth.edu/~soko/aria/aria.html

for more informaôn. Summary follows:

Throughout history, peoples and cultures have told stories of
their gods, heroes, and villains in order to beker understand the
world around them. These myths seize upon the hopes and fears of
society; heroes embody a culture's highest ideals while villains
manifest as ancient dreads personied. Aria focuses on the
Journey of the Hero, the sacred quest of the Monomyth, which
represents in mythic language the seeking of cultures aver their
own iden^ty. Aria Can^cle of the Monomyth is a roleplaying game
system which akempts to embody this connecôn between hero and
culture.

Aria is designed to funcôn on several levels; during the course
of a single game, players can assume the roles of individual
personas, persona lineages, or even whole socieês. All such
interacôn is directed toward the development not only of
personas, but also of en^re cultures and worlds. As an integral
part of the game, Aria players weave together mythic, historical,
and personal ^me into one great tapestry of life -- a living
history beginning with the rst game session. Crea^ng this
vision of the Monomyth, where heroes and villains clash in a world
as well-developed and as rich in character as its mighêst
inhabitants, Aria players engage in the pageant of Mythmaking, the
evocaôn of numinous symbols summoned from the collec^ve
imaginaôns of the en^re gaming group.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 13:26:03 +0100
From: "M.A.T." <mat3@LEICESTER.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: PLEAS READ! Support your favourite game system!

Ken...

I do hate to point this out, but has anyone seen the new upgrades to
AD&D? If you want, these books (note the plural lads and ladies)
allow you to increase the complexity of the game (or so I've been
told... personally I haven't seen them so I might be talking out of
my - ). Hmm... if you look closely they seem to have broken up
akributes into remarkably Mythus-like categories. For example,
good 'ole Intelligence is now broken up into two categories if memory
serves: Memory and Logic. Ring any bells? Could this be what T$R
are doing with Mythus? Dissec^ng it into smaller pieces so that
they can release it as AD&D supplements without infringing any

copyright laws? Just face it, they own the rights and have the
right.

I'm not saying that I like that... Personally, I go with the
statement that Mythus is one of the top three fantasy games on (well,
o ;-( ) the market today. That's only if you rank *Amber* as a
fantasy game. Oh yes, and if you disclude *Aria* because of the
complexity of some of the mechanics, Mythus becomes *the* best
fantasy game. If wri^ng to TSR would get them to re-release Mythus
and give it the support that it needs then I'd write to anyone! Send
me the address, please!

--MARK

Mark Trickek, Archaeology/Ancient History
Undergrad (Leicester Uni)
mat3@le.ac.uk

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 13:30:07 +0100
From: "M.A.T." <mat3@LEICESTER.AC.UK>
Subject: Suppor^ng Mythus

Prince O. Darkness...

Sorry about that, I only just got to your mail in my mail box... So
the possibility is that they could support it if they thought the
game would do well!

In that case, I apologise for the last e-mail. It was based merely
on the informaôn I had at hand at the ^me.

If Mythus was fully supported by a company renowned for it's fantasy
games (i.e. not GDW) for that reason alone it would do well.

Thanks for the address... I shall be wri^ng.

--MARK (repentent)

Mark Trickek, Archaeology/Ancient History
Undergrad (Leicester Uni)
mat3@le.ac.uk


=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 10:51:20 -0600
In-Reply-To: <ADE64862FA@daisy.le.ac.uk>

On Tue, 13 Feb 1996, M.A.T. wrote:

> Ken...
>
> I do hate to point this out, but has anyone seen the new upgrades to
> AD&D? If you want, these books (note the plural lads and ladies)
> allow you to increase the complexity of the game (or so I've been
> told... personally I haven't seen them so I might be talking out of
> my - ). Hmm... if you look closely they seem to have broken up
> akributes into remarkably Mythus-like categories. For example,
> good 'ole Intelligence is now broken up into two categories if memory
> serves: Memory and Logic. Ring any bells? Could this be what T$R
> are doing with Mythus? Dissec^ng it into smaller pieces so that
> they can release it as AD&D supplements without infringing any
> copyright laws? Just face it, they own the rights and have the
> right.
You know what, you're right (my brother has the new ad&d
books-and actually the rst day we got them, by brother was like, o my
god-this is straight from mythus) which he didnt think was a bad idea if
they would veer more towards that idea than the direcôn they were heading.
Almost every weapon is mythus has been implemented in combat &
tac^cs (even the cho-ku-no), but the fact is simple. No maker how hard
they try, they cant scratch the surface of mythus. Hey, when you have a
good game, you have a good game. When you have a sick game where you ask
yourself- why CANT I do that? You know you have problems. My dream is
that everyone in TSR gets red and they give GDW back their rights.
oops.. heh :)

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 13:18:53 PST

>While I agree that it would be marvelous to get DJ back in buisiness,
>I wouldn't want TSR to write scenarios! I have played a few and I didn't
>much care for them. To darn predictable and simply boring. I know it
>depends a lot on the GM, but we have been playing now for more than
>8 years, and this fellow is the best GM I've ever played with.
>And can we trust the folks at TSR to write as good source material for DJ
>as Gary and Dave? I think not. I wouldn't much like to see elf, half-elf, dwarf
>and halling faries, and other AD&D abnormaliês.
>TSR has with their AD&D system proven that they have great diculês
>to come up with new ideas, or at least implemen^ng them.

Thanks, Pal. And who says I wouldn't write DJ stu for TSR if they asked me? I'm
s^ll available for freelance work. And besides, I would love to have a hand in it's
con^nued development, if that ever happened. I do sorta know the system, aver all...

Dave=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 12:26:25 -0600

I hate to say it, but I am one of those who really doesn't want to T$R to
touch it. Why? Look at what they did to Demons and devils - they killed 'em
in AD&D, replacing them with taanr'i and beeztu or whatever. They have a
strong code of ethics for their publicaôns, which is ne for a company
who is gearing its product to adolescents. But that code is slanted against
protraying or even acknowledging 'gloomy darkness'.
Now imagine what they would do with the following k/s's - witchcrav,
sorcery, Exorcism, necromancy, occul^sm, conjuraôn, and of course,
demonology - they'll all be cut, or if not cut unrecognizable. You see,
they all go against that 'code of ethics'.
Next look through Mythus magick and - oh by the way, they'll probably have
to cut the word "magick", because it was used by Crowley, and i'm sure the
cri^cs would love that hook. But look through the book. It was details on
rituals - and some sacrices of animals. Thats goka go. And on and on.
And Epic of Aerth? Pantheologies will need to change. I believe they cut
Legends and lore (name changed from deiês and demigods because of public
pressure) and I am sure they'll do the same with the pantheologies. And the
races? goodbye.
Oh sure, you'll get some new beasêres and really crappy adventures,
watered down, but that's about it. Think we'll have any input in the game?
Ask greyhawkers -they have been ignoring us for years now. Ask mystara
fans. Or rst ediôn players. Or spell jammers. They don't listen. Except
to rustle of dollar bills.
But how do I know they'll do this? Maybe they'll leave it alone as a
product line for the older gamers. don't bet on it. Mythus will never
akain or surpass the popularity of AD&D. So why would they leave their
ank exposed with mythus's sensi^ve subjects listed above? Why would they
give cri^cs ammo to link to Ad&d? But they're dierent games you say. I
know that, and you know that, but why don't you call up the 700 club or
your favorite theocrat and explain it to them?
I say leave mythus alone. We can provide everything T$R would if it
produced product beasêaries, scenarios, etc... And we can do it with
integerity and honestly - not having to worry about oending some annoying
housewife in her mid thirês who we could't stand in high school and who
is shocked because there is a man with horns on the cover of her 13 year
old sons books. Lets keep Mythus in the family un^l we can nd the means
to produce it right. That's my 2 zincs worth.
Now 2 quesôns about Mythus 1. Encumberance rules. Anyone use any?
2. What aect does adaman^ne and other metals have on weapon and armor
quality. It is menôned in Mythus as being in the rules regarding these
items, but I can't nd them. Am I going blind? Are they there?

------------------------------------------------------------------Great were the centuries of olden ^mes
For faith there was, and jus^ce, too, and love,
And men believed, as few or none do now.
Now all is altered, has another cast;
Our elders' days will never come again.

-Anonymous(c.1040)
"The Life of St. Alexis"
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 19:44:54 +0100
From: J|rgen P|nter <puenter@KNIPP.DE>

>2. What aect does adaman^ne and other metals have on weapon and armor
>quality. It is menôned in Mythus as being in the rules regarding these
>items, but I can't nd them. Am I going blind? Are they there?
>
No reason to doubt your senses, it's not there.
I asked Alan Kellog the very same thing 2 (or was it 3 ?) years ago. I'll
post his reply as soon as I have the ^me (some^me this week for sure).
What he answered was not much but it might be something to start from.

May DJ be ressurrected some day (and yes, I agree with you, let's hope it is
_not_ done by T$R)

Gree^ngs from Germany
J=FCrgen P=FCnter
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 12:14:47 +1300
From: Daniel Bullen <DRJB@WAIKATO.AC.NZ>
Subject: other genre

DJ is was designed to be mul^-genre, but seeing as it hasn't con^nued in th
e hands of its creators, are we likely to see any other genres. I joined the
list just as discussions about interstellar distances were ending, does

that mean someone has a sci-/space genre? I think that DJ could be set in the
realm of EMPYRION, (which would be the equivalent of MYHTUS) as described in
the novel of the same ^tle by Stephen Lawhead. Now I realise to publish it
would require licensing but for use by those on this list, nas^ness could be
avoided. Anyone else got ideas for a futuris^c DJ seing?

Daniel :)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 12:11:29 -0700
From: Je Sharpe <sharpe@LIPLUS.LI-BUSINESS.AB.CA>
In-Reply-To: <v01540b02ad462afa41ab@[199.88.137.174]>

In <v01540b02ad462afa41ab@[199.88.137.174]>, Eric Medalis wrote:

>I hate to say it, but I am one of those who really doesn't want to T$R
>to touch it.

I'm in agreement.

>I say leave mythus alone. We can provide everything T$R would if it
>produced product beasêaries, scenarios, etc... And we can do it with
>integerity and honestly - not having to worry about oending some annoying
>housewife in her mid thirês who we could't stand in high school and who
>is shocked because there is a man with horns on the cover of her 13 year
>old sons books. Lets keep Mythus in the family un^l we can nd the means
>to produce it right. That's my 2 zincs worth.

My percepôn is that Mythus is for the mature gaming crowd, while most
of T$R's products appear to be geared towards a 'PG' ra^ng. I hate
friggin' 'PG' - evil is supposed to be EVIL!

The only way I would support a T$R bastardized version of Mythus is if
the original creators, and supporters, have control over the product
(otherwise, I'll s^ck with my current version). Doesn't seem very
bloody possible from my end of things...

- ___ _\\///_ ___
| | (' o-o ') | |
| . |-----------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo---------------------------| . |
| | Je Sharpe sharpe@liplus.li-business.ab.ca | |
| . |_____________________________________________________________| . |
|___|/\/ /\ \ /\ / ooO/ \Ooo / \/ /\ / \ / / \ |___|
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 04:46:35 -0600

In-Reply-To: <1996Feb13.121129-0700@corolla.li-business.ab.ca>

>
> The only way I would support a T$R bastardized version of Mythus is if
> the original creators, and supporters, have control over the product
> (otherwise, I'll s^ck with my current version). Doesn't seem very
> bloody possible from my end of things...
>
>
I was thinking, even if TSR did let mythus go, and they took out
all those k/s areas.. who cares??? We s^ll have em in the originals :)
If TSR brings back mythus I think it'd be for the beker- Yea, they do
screw with things, but they can't screw it THAT bad, as long as they keep
with the basic concepts of Mythus. True they take out all that Demon
mumbo jumbo, but like I already said, we have the originals and dammit we
can throw in satan if we want.heheh.
(not that i would. Im a good dm, really!) :)
But anyway, just that chance of resurrecôn of the game is good
enough for me, Im sendin a leker. Sure we could leave it to die- but I
just dont like the way mythus was lev hanging when it was taken o the
shelves the rst ^me. Besides, anything we dont like that TSR throws
in, come one-we know what to do. TAKE IT OUT. Dump it, no big deal- but
if we leave it dead o the market.. I'm afraid its going to eventually
die out forever.
-Ken
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 00:21:52 +1100
Subject: TSR restart DJ.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960212013607.28661A@conciliator.acsu.bualo.edu>

Firstly, how/where do I get D.I. parts 1-5?

Secondly, In the FTP site, there was menôn of an electronic version of
a certain Mythic Masters magazine. Is this s^ll available in any way?

Thirdly, about the leker to TSR:
It seems that many people are complaining that if TSR were to restart
Mythus they would @*!% it up. This may indeed be the case. But no maker
what TSR does with mythus, even if they turn it into a kindergarden RPG
whose rules are wriked in a 20 page book consis^ng primarily as
pictures, it will not hurt the game as it stands. A second ediôn can
only make the game beker. As Lucifer's leker suggests, TSR should
release DJ as a game for experienced roleplayers, and if TSR were to

release DJ, that would be its market. TSR can come up with good modules
and other products, its usually just dicult to dig them out of the
junk. Re-releasing Mythus would also get people to know about the game,
and they would then get to know about the fabled 1st ediôn, which,
their experienced Role-playing friends would say was much beker than the
stupid 2nd ediôn, and they might then play the 1st ediôn - if the 2nd
really was that bad. I know a few people who play 1st Ed ADND, and were
introduced to the game through the second ediôn.

enough arguing, now for a quesôn:
If TSR were to re-release DJ, how likely would it be that Gary were
involved?

Alwis Hohlweg
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 07:06:47 -0800
From: Harold Ogle <harold@SVPAL.ORG>
Subject: Re: TSR restart DJ.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.960215000414.19871E-100000@audio.apana.org.au>

> Thirdly, about the leker to TSR:
> It seems that many people are complaining that if TSR were to restart
> Mythus they would @*!% it up. This may indeed be the case. But no maker
> what TSR does with mythus, even if they turn it into a kindergarden RPG
> whose rules are wriked in a 20 page book consis^ng primarily as
> pictures, it will not hurt the game as it stands. A second ediôn can
> only make the game beker. As Lucifer's leker suggests, TSR should
> release DJ as a game for experienced roleplayers, and if TSR were to
> release DJ, that would be its market. TSR can come up with good modules
> and other products, its usually just dicult to dig them out of the
> junk. Re-releasing Mythus would also get people to know about the game,
> and they would then get to know about the fabled 1st ediôn, which,
> their experienced Role-playing friends would say was much beker than the
> stupid 2nd ediôn, and they might then play the 1st ediôn - if the 2nd
> really was that bad. I know a few people who play 1st Ed ADND, and were
> introduced to the game through the second ediôn.

Agreed. Send them today.

>
> enough arguing, now for a quesôn:
> If TSR were to re-release DJ, how likely would it be that Gary were
> involved?
>
Not at all, as I understand it. The buzz around here was that there were
personal conicts as well as ideological ones, which suggests to me -from the results of the previous conict (EGG's banishment, quite
possibly voluntary) -- that neither side would put aside their

dierences to support a compromise in system and/or morals.

> Alwis Hohlweg
>

Harold
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:48:36 -0500
From: Andy Ehlert <roshi@UMD.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mike Paulus
In-Reply-To: <MYTHUS-L%96021218041590@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU> from "Gary Spechko"
at Feb 12, 96 06:04:16 pm

Just to let you know, Mike, joined the navy. You probably won't
be hearing from him for a while.

- Muten Roshi (Andy Ehlert)
E-Mail: roshi@umd.umich.edu WWW: hkp://www.umd.umich.edu/~roshi/
President of The Science, Fact, Ficôn, and Fantasy Gaming Club
Organizer: U of M Dearborn Anime Showings On irc: M_Roshi
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:47:48 -0500

Although I wouldn't want T$R to write anything for Mythus, it would be nice
if they would start to print the books again. I know it's unlikely that they
would spend the money to do that without publishing a hoard of other
garbage, but if they lev the original books as is, I would be happy.

I bet a lot of the people on this list could use new books :-)

I guess it doesn't hurt to wish.

*sigh*

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 14:41:06 -0500


>much care for them. To darn predictable and simply boring.

I agree! Is it beker to let Mythus languish and wait for real support, or
sell out to TSR and let them butcher it like they do everything else? There
is no real crea^vity at TSR anymore, just endless revisions ovhe same old
thing: "Stupidquest Part IX: The Newer Adventures, with Another Fantasy
World!" It's a paper mill, and I think there is likle chance their
published product would bear any relaônship to the Mythus we know and love.
No demons, for instance.

Without the fantas^c minds of Gygax and Newton, Mythus would be a
paper-maiche version of the original. No one believes either of them would
ever work for TSR again, and I wouldn't blame them. A beker response would
be to try to buy the rights to it and re-publish that way.

DOn
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 14:48:37 -0500
Subject: Encumbrance & Metals

I haven't used formal encumbrance rules because I have too much other stu
to keep track of, especially in combat. Instead, I try to visualize what a
person says they are carrying and how much it would encumber them, regardless
of strength. Next I assign a higher DR )if such is warranted) to maneuver
and/or tack on Speed Factors to penalize iniâ^ve. So far this has worked
for me.

There are rules for the metals, but not explicated. I don't believe anywhere
you will nd a list of "adaman^ne gives a +10 bonus" as in Rolemaster, but
there are likle notes. Not that I have the books at hand, or I'd look them
up and pass them along. In general, adaman^ne in a weapn makes its quality
Unsurpassed and permits Heka-forging to happen while the weapon is being
made.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 15:05:32 -0500

How many people have been around long enough to remember the last two leker
wri^ng campaigns? I'm in favor of anything that shakes TSR up and makes
them take no^ce, but don't get your hopes up.

I s'pose that if it's done snail mail they'll have to sort through it at
least, rather than hiing the delete key.

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 16:25:47 -0500
Subject: TSR, DJ, Lucifer, Messrs. Gygax and Newton, etc.

Hold up, folks!

Let's think this through.

TSR will probably *not* resurrect Mythus (although some have stated that
the inuence of Mythus and GURPS and other decent RPGs is now showing in
the latest release of AD&D). Why? They don't want compe^ôn for AD&D.

Granted, Mythus and AD&D appeal to two dierent slices of the gaming
community, but that's not surprising. One is rich and exible, the
other is aged and creaking and dumbed-down.

However, it doesn't hurt to lobby for the resurrecôn of the product
line. Aver all, Changeling was in a playable form, or near to it, and
Unhallowed was *certainly* close to compleôn. If nothing else, there's
a chance they'll take the Unhallowed manuscript and publish it. For that
chance alone, it's worth the $0.32 for a stamp :-)

In fact, just the *chance* that they'll re-examine the line is worth the
price of a stamp.

So, let's do it!

(and I remember both leker-wri^ng campaigns :-) )

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 16:49:49 EST
Subject: Responses to the resurrecôn of DJ (LONG)

I'd like to take up a bit of your mail quota today to reply
to those individuals who've made posts about reviving Mythus under
TSR's banner. I want to start out by thanking all who've responded,
posi^vely and nega^vely (though there were a great deal more of
the laker than I suspected), and special thanks to those who've
already sent in and plan to send in lekers to TSR. Once again, the
address to send your mail to is:

James Ward
TSR, Inc.

Now for those responses:

From: Pal Arild Woje <Pal-Arild.Woje@bodo.it.telenor.no>

>much care for them. To darn predictable and simply boring. I know it
>depends a lot on the GM, but we have been playing now for more than
>8 years, and this fellow is the best GM I've ever played with.
>And can we trust the folks at TSR to write as good source material for DJ
>as Gary and Dave? I think not. I wouldn't much like to see elf, half-elf, dwarf
>and halling faries, and other AD&D abnormaliês.
>TSR has with their AD&D system proven that they have great diculês
>to come up with new ideas, or at least implemen^ng them.

I think the last thing TSR wants to do is make Mythus
anything like AD&D. That would be suicide, either for the system,
or for AD&D (dependent upon how much of the original rules they
keep), and preky stupid, from a businessman's point of view (one
thing TSR's execs are NOT, is stupid). TSR would not wish to
publish a game system with the same avor as AD&D, just with
dierent rules. That's the main reason that I think, if TSR did
decide to publish Mythus, much of it (including those things which
tread on the edge of their Code of Ethics) would remain the same.
TSR quality has been low since Gygax departed, but recent
products show a marked improvement, including the Planescape
seing, the Player's Opôn rulebooks, the Encyclopedia Magica
series, the Ravenlov series and the Mystara campaign (the laker
two of which retained concistent quality throughout TSR's problems
with crea^vity). It is my opinion that TSR is moving out of its
slump, and Mythus is just the vehicle that could put it back on top
of the market, as far as crea^vity and ingenuity go.
If we can show them unied, consolidated group of fans out
here, extremely loyal to the system and what it stands for, then
they will be much more unwilling to beging changing things
dras^cally.

From: "M.A.T." <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>

>I do hate to point this out, but has anyone seen the new upgrades to
>AD&D? If you want, these books (note the plural lads and ladies)
>allow you to increase the complexity of the game (or so I've been
>told... personally I haven't seen them so I might be talking out of

>my - ). Hmm... if you look closely they seem to have broken up
>akributes into remarkably Mythus-like categories. For example,
>good 'ole Intelligence is now broken up into two categories if memory
>serves: Memory and Logic. Ring any bells? Could this be what T$R
>are doing with Mythus? Dissec^ng it into smaller pieces so that
>they can release it as AD&D supplements without infringing any
>copyright laws? Just face it, they own the rights and have the
>right.

There aren't any copyright laws to infringe on...TSR owns
the copyrights to Mythus. However, you have brought up what I think
is a move to sa^sfy those individuals who enjoy an increased
complexity in their games. It's because of this movement that I
think TSR will do a good job with Mythus; the ^me is right for it!

From: Eric Medalis <astolfo@interaccess.com>

>I hate to say it, but I am one of those who really doesn't want to T$R to
>touch it. Why? Look at what they did to Demons and devils - they killed 'em
>in AD&D, replacing them with taanr'i and beeztu or whatever. They have a
>strong code of ethics for their publicaôns, which is ne for a company
>who is gearing its product to adolescents. But that code is slanted against
>protraying or even acknowledging 'gloomy darkness'.

Actually, have you taken a look at the Planscape stu? All
of the demons and devils are back (s^ll with dierent
names...what's in a name? Would not Balor by any other name smell
as sulfrous?), and badder than ever. They are portrayed as the
ul^mate of evil. Where are the Arch-Devils and Demon Lords you
ask? They've been moved away from mere toys for paladins to slay at
36th level; no stats, no detailed descripôns...they're the Dark
Eight (for Arch-Devils) and they remain behind the scenes, working
their darkness from their rey pits. I think that's a move in the
right direcôn, away from the temptaôn of hack and slash (what?
your thief stole the Asmodeus' Rod of Rulership and Orcus's sta?),
and into the realm of mystery. Personally, I like that.

>Now imagine what they would do with the following k/s's - witchcrav,
>sorcery, Exorcism, necromancy, occul^sm, conjuraôn, and of course,
>demonology - they'll all be cut, or if not cut unrecognizable. You see,
>they all go against that 'code of ethics'.

Perhaps. If we can convince TSR to publish Mythus 'for
mature audiences only', perhaps all of those things can be lev in.
Even if they have new names, what's the big deal? (and let's not
forget the Necromancer's Handbook, recenly published by TSR...)

>Next look through Mythus magick and - oh by the way, they'll probably have
>to cut the word "magick", because it was used by Crowley, and i'm sure the
>cri^cs would love that hook. But look through the book. It was details on
>rituals - and some sacrices of animals. Thats goka go. And on and on.

AD&D has animal sacrices, as well, if you want to get
technical, unless you don't consider ea^ng spiders a sacrice.
What does Mythus lose if those sacrices are only alluded to, and
not described in detail (though, if memory serves, there's not a lot
of detail on those sacrices anyways).

>And Epic of Aerth? Pantheologies will need to change. I believe they cut
>Legends and lore (name changed from deiês and demigods because of public
>pressure) and I am sure they'll do the same with the pantheologies. And the
>races? goodbye.

Um...actually, I'm uncertain of the reasons behind the name
change, but Gygax was s^ll in command when it happened. They did
publish deiês in 2nd ediôn, and even invented dieês of their
own (some based on demons from Chrisân mythology). I don't see
your raônale for your opinion.

>Oh sure, you'll get some new beasêres and really crappy adventures,
>watered down, but that's about it. Think we'll have any input in the game?

Well, probably very likle, but if we can get the game going
again, we've got more power over it than players have had over any
game. To my recollecôn, no game has ever been saved because of
player responses. Here's our chance to make gaming history! Fact
of the maker is, most companies, even SJG, don't give a lot of
control to their players. Not only is it impossible (as the mixed
responses to my call for lekers illustrates), but economically
dangerous.

>Ask greyhawkers -they have been ignoring us for years now. Ask mystara
>fans. Or rst ediôn players. Or spell jammers. They don't listen. Except
>to rustle of dollar bills.

Well, obviously they've got some fans out there, or they
wouldn't be hearing the rustle. Just because you're in the
minority, doesn't mean they have a responsibility to cater to you.
I was saddened by the passing of Greyhawk and 1st ediôn, but 2nd
ediôn and the Forgoken Realms (especially early on, when
Greenwood s^ll had a great deal of ar^s^c control) did have some
really good things in them, some even beker than their
predecessors'. I'm uncertain of what you are speaking about when
you refer to Mystara...to my understanding, it was s^ll being
published (and the stu I've read on it, 2nd ediôn conversion
included, has been extremely quality stu). As for AD&D: Star
Wars, I'll let that subject be, as this really isn't a discussion on
that topic. But, though TSR has killed some good things, it has
consistantly been because the players stopped suppor^ng those good

things. When sales go down, they move on. They've got a
responsibility to make the majority of their customers happy. We've
got to prove to them that Mythus can do that, as is.

>But how do I know they'll do this? Maybe they'll leave it alone as a
>product line for the older gamers. don't bet on it. Mythus will never
>akain or surpass the popularity of AD&D. So why would they leave their
>ank exposed with mythus's sensi^ve subjects listed above? Why would they
>give cri^cs ammo to link to Ad&d? But they're dierent games you say. I
>know that, and you know that, but why don't you call up the 700 club or
>your favorite theocrat and explain it to them?

Actually, your statement above is exactly what I am beker
on. I believe Mythus is a good enough system to have equal or
greater popularity than AD&D. It is, without a doubt, a much beker
system, and those people who follow TSR will most likely purchase
it. Once the average gamer out there starts wondering what all the
fuss is about, Mythus is certainly going to take o.
Besides, the theocrats and Religious Right out there don't
really pay akenôn to the publishers of a par^cular game system
(they barely pay akenôn to the text within, much less something
on the ^tle page). Mythus would not garner any more heat for TSR
as being connected to AD&D any more than any other game system not
published by them does.

>I say leave mythus alone. We can provide everything T$R would if it
>produced product beasêaries, scenarios, etc... And we can do it with
>integerity and honestly - not having to worry about oending some annoying
>housewife in her mid thirês who we could't stand in high school and who
>is shocked because there is a man with horns on the cover of her 13 year
>old sons books. Lets keep Mythus in the family un^l we can nd the means
>to produce it right. That's my 2 zincs worth.

Well, no oense to those who've published Mythus material
on the net (myself included), but I've found very likle _useful_
material on the net that wasn't published/wriken by Newton or
Gygax. The project to create the named magick items was fantas^c,
but of likle use to the average Mythus player. Other than that,
very likle that has been published is even of TSR's quality (there
are a few gems, but they are few and far between...very few of us
are par^cularly good at wri^ng gaming material, and those that do
are usually doing it). That, coupled with the constant possibility
that TSR will nd out about the Mythus material on the net and
start cracking down on it, making it completely inaccessible, makes
me think that the only way Mythus will survive is if TSR starts
publishing it.


>Thanks, Pal. And who says I wouldn't write DJ stu for TSR if they
>asked me? I'm s^ll available for freelance work. And besides, I
>would love to have a hand in it's con^nued development, if that
>ever happened. I do sorta know the system, aver all...

To be honest, I was most concerned about what response my
(something that, I hope, is becoming our) 'quest' would get from the
people most closely involved in the original (the two on this 'serve
being Dave Newton and Frank Mentzer [assuming he's s^ll lurking
about]). Your willingness to write for TSR, should they decide to
re-publish the material, is more than even I'd hoped for!
One quesôn, though: Does this mean you'll write them in
support of the game, as well? :)

From: Je Sharpe <sharpe@liplus.li-business.ab.ca>

>My percepôn is that Mythus is for the mature gaming crowd, while most
>of T$R's products appear to be geared towards a 'PG' ra^ng. I hate
>friggin' 'PG' - evil is supposed to be EVIL!

That 'most' is what I'm banking on. If Mythus was geared
towards the adolescent gaming crowd, it would be in direct
compe^ôn with AD&D, and that'd be a waste of ^me and money (even
if Mythus won out, in the end). That's why I think that our only
chance to convince TSR to publish Mythus is if we suggest that they
aim the system at the group of people it was originally intended
for, which are the same individuals who have become disillusioned by
AD&D, and strayed from TSR's patronage. If Mythus is republished,
they have no other logical choice but to aim it at mature audiences.

>The only way I would support a T$R bastardized version of Mythus is if
>the original creators, and supporters, have control over the product
>(otherwise, I'll s^ck with my current version). Doesn't seem very
>bloody possible from my end of things...

Well, we'll never have the level of control over Mythus that
Gygax permiked (and even that wasn't all that much, but more than
most other companies are willing to permit). Chances are Gygax
wouldn't want to be involved, from what I understand, so I guess the
system won't have your support. That's your decision, of course.


> I was thinking, even if TSR did let mythus go, and they took out
>all those k/s areas.. who cares??? We s^ll have em in the originals :)
>If TSR brings back mythus I think it'd be for the beker- Yea, they do
>screw with things, but they can't screw it THAT bad, as long as they keep
>with the basic concepts of Mythus. True they take out all that Demon
>mumbo jumbo, but like I already said, we have the originals and dammit we
>can throw in satan if we want.heheh.
> (not that i would. Im a good dm, really!) :)
> But anyway, just that chance of resurrecôn of the game is good
>enough for me, Im sendin a leker. Sure we could leave it to die- but I
>just dont like the way mythus was lev hanging when it was taken o the
>shelves the rst ^me. Besides, anything we dont like that TSR throws
>in, come one-we know what to do. TAKE IT OUT. Dump it, no big deal- but
>if we leave it dead o the market.. I'm afraid its going to eventually
>die out forever.

Exactly my point. Gaining new Mythus players is well nigh
impossible these days on any level but on a personal one. I think
Mythus is revoluônary enough that it should be shared with other
gamers, on and o the net (I'd hate to think what those poor blokes
who don't have net access and love Mythus have gone through!). Even
if TSR does make a hatchet job of Mythus (which I don't think
they'll do), at least we'll have more of a foothold to bring new
people into our midst, and when you bring up Mythus around gamers,
you won't get that funny stare.

Subject: TSR restart DJ.

>If TSR were to re-release DJ, how likely would it be that Gary were
>involved?

From what I've heard, there is absolutely no chance. I
understand Gygax has sworn he'll never work in the pen and paper rpg
business again, but I've got no rst hand info on the subject.


>Although I wouldn't want T$R to write anything for Mythus, it would be nice
>if they would start to print the books again. I know it's unlikely that they
>would spend the money to do that without publishing a hoard of other
>garbage, but if they lev the original books as is, I would be happy.
>
>I guess it doesn't hurt to wish.

And those wishes won't feel as fruitless if you send in your
leker of support (sorry, had to s^ck that in ;) ).

From: Donald Eccles <addresss and name accidentally deleted>

>I agree! Is it beker to let Mythus languish and wait for real support, or
>sell out to TSR and let them butcher it like they do everything else? There
>is no real crea^vity at TSR anymore, just endless revisions ovhe same old
>thing: "Stupidquest Part IX: The Newer Adventures, with Another Fantasy
>World!" It's a paper mill, and I think there is likle chance their
>published product would bear any relaônship to the Mythus we know and love.
>No demons, for instance.

What is it with demons? I AM star^ng to worry about the
gaming community *tee hee* ;)

>Without the fantas^c minds of Gygax and Newton, Mythus would be a
>paper-maiche version of the original. No one believes either of them would
>ever work for TSR again, and I wouldn't blame them. A beker response would
>be to try to buy the rights to it and re-publish that way.

Well, that's just not possible. No other gaming company out
there would be willing to put forth the money needed to purchase the
rights, even if TSR was willing to sell (which, aver their huge
legal bakle, would be a preky stupid thing to do, eh?), and I know
_I_ don't have that kind of capital.
And, btw, Dave seems to believe he'd work for TSR, if he got
the opportunity :)

From: Richard Crook <Kelthar@aol.com>

>How many people have been around long enough to remember the last two leker
>wri^ng campaigns? I'm in favor of anything that shakes TSR up and makes
>them take no^ce, but don't get your hopes up.
>
>I s'pose that if it's done snail mail they'll have to sort through it at
>least, rather than hiing the delete key.

Actually, I do remember the previous two, but those were
done through e-mail, which is an extremely, extremely poor way to
try to persuade someone to do something (especially since the
message oven doesn't reach the person it's intended for). Also, I
think the ^ming was o. TSR was involved in or s^ll had some
healing wounds from the whole debacle, and many people were
excepônally...passionate (which, I think, harmed our cause more
than anything else).
My hopes and dreams are already up. Maybe I'm naive (my
friends would be laughing at that one...the eternal cynic...), but I
do believe this _can_ and _will_ work, but only if I get
_everyone's_ support and, most importantly, acôn on this. I do
hope your own cynicism isn't going to prevent you from dropping a
leker yourself?

Basically, while TSR quality has had some serious problems
over the last decade, it's my opinion that that quality level is
increasing. I do think they could do a fantas^c job with Mythus,
and I think it's got the quality level to make it one of the hokest
games on the market. I don't think TSR would try to remove all of
the rules that many others are sugges^ng they would, because the
most obvious group that TSR has lev untapped in the fantasy genre
is the older, more educated group. It would be most logical to aim
the game at that group of individuals (historically impossible to
please, btw). The ^me to show our support and love for Mythus is
here, in the now. If we don't jump at TSR's move to make their
games more complex and enjoyable for the mature gamer, Mythus will
truly be lost. I'm _not_ sa^sed with the status quo, and this is
our _only_ chance to change it. I do sincerely hope that those who
have some misgivings over suppor^ng a TSR published Mythus will
strongly reconsider their posiôn, and send in their leker today!
It can't happen without you.

Lucifer >:}

p.s. Some of my friends have suggested I call this likle
campaign the "Lazarus Project"...I like it :)

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 19:35:21 -0700
Subject: Re: Responses to the resurrecôn of DJ (LONG)
Feb 14, 96 04:49:49 pm

[stu snipped]

> I think the last thing TSR wants to do is make Mythus
> anything like AD&D. That would be suicide, either for the system,
> or for AD&D (dependent upon how much of the original rules they
> keep), and preky stupid, from a businessman's point of view (one
> thing TSR's execs are NOT, is stupid).

That's a maker of opinion. Ask them about the "Buck Rogers" game; though,
admikedly, that was more about pumping extra money into Lorraine Williams
dying BR empire than *really* trying to publish a game...

[more stu cut]

> Actually, have you taken a look at the Planscape stu? All
> of the demons and devils are back (s^ll with dierent
> names...what's in a name? Would not Balor by any other name smell
> as sulfrous?), and badder than ever.

Actually, no. When they changed the names of "demons" and "devils" to
"pooes" and "slurpies" or whatever nonsensical stu they made up was when
I was nally disillusioned with T$R as a game company. The names "Demon"
and "Devil" carry with them certain creepy cultural implicaôns that are
good for a gaming table, but can be iy for PR and for the consciences of
some T$R employees. I think when they made the game more "Chrisân
friendly" they sold out. I can't respect that; it implies that they have
bought into the Religious Right ideas that gaming about Those Below causes
evil behavior-- and if there's one thing this hobby doesn't need, it's
concession to the Religious Right.

> They are portrayed as the ul^mate of evil. Where are the Arch-Devils
> and Demon Lords you ask? They've been moved away from mere toys for
> paladins to slay at
> 36th level; no stats, no detailed descripôns...they're the Dark
> Eight (for Arch-Devils) and they remain behind the scenes, working
> their darkness from their rey pits. I think that's a move in the
> right direcôn, away from the temptaôn of hack and slash (what?
> your thief stole the Asmodeus' Rod of Rulership and Orcus's sta?),
> and into the realm of mystery. Personally, I like that.

Personally, I don't. I think the 1st Ediôn AD&D system of giving stats
for deiês/demons/etc was awed, but only in that it made the beings too
weak. Stats are good, IMO, because comparing your HP's own stats to
Asmodeus' is a terric way to see why you should grovel at his feet rather
than kick Hellsand in his face. If you have no idea what Shabriri can do to
you, how do you know whether or not to foolishly try to take him on, or ee?
My players were generally irreverent (few clerics), and it was only when I
gave 'em some indicaôn of what a (demi-)god could actually *do* to you
that they started to get respecul (Player 1:"Die foul worshipper of--"
Player 2:"Shhh! Idiot! Don't say his Name!!!!!").

Some people like the power of their Other Worldly creepies to be ukerly
ambiguous. I don't. Even knowing (as we would've in DJ) that gods can use
Cas^ng Level XXX cas^ngs is a good comparator, especially if your Black
Dweomercraever can only use level IV. :) :) :) YMMV.

[more snipped]

> Um...actually, I'm uncertain of the reasons behind the name
> change, but Gygax was s^ll in command when it happened. They did
> publish deiês in 2nd ediôn, and even invented dieês of their
> own (some based on demons from Chrisân mythology). I don't see
> your raônale for your opinion.

The Deiês and Demigods --> Legends and Lore change was due to a court
seklement with (Chaosium?) over the fact that an early ediôn had Cthulhu
and Melnibonean Mythoi included within.

[more gone]

> Exactly my point. Gaining new Mythus players is well nigh
> impossible these days on any level but on a personal one. I think
> Mythus is revoluônary enough that it should be shared with other
> gamers, on and o the net (I'd hate to think what those poor blokes
> who don't have net access and love Mythus have gone through!). Even
> if TSR does make a hatchet job of Mythus (which I don't think
> they'll do), at least we'll have more of a foothold to bring new
> people into our midst, and when you bring up Mythus around gamers,
> you won't get that funny stare.

I've never gained new players to *any* role playing games on anything *but*
a personal level. I don't think having T$R start to publish Mythus
expansions is going to raise the number of players I interact with.
Everyone I've introduced the game to has been able to purchase the books
they need at a nearby hobby shop-- there's s^ll a lot of stu on the
shelves, if you look for it.

[stu gone]

> From what I've heard, there is absolutely no chance. I
> understand Gygax has sworn he'll never work in the pen and paper rpg
> business again, but I've got no rst hand info on the subject.

Can't say as I blame him, aver what he's been through...

> What is it with demons? I AM star^ng to worry about the
> gaming community *tee hee* ;)

They're creepy, crawly, and fun to worsh... I mean, "Slay"!

;)

[more snipped]

> truly be lost. I'm _not_ sa^sed with the status quo, and this is
> our _only_ chance to change it. I do sincerely hope that those who
> have some misgivings over suppor^ng a TSR published Mythus will
> strongly reconsider their posiôn, and send in their leker today!
> It can't happen without you.

I wish you luck, but I can't support the proposiôn. I'd rather let it
remain as it is, even "dead", than play a zombied version. If I wrote my
leker, I'd make all of my posiôns clear on this-- and none of them would
help your case. Sorry.

Aaron Brezenski

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 22:59:09 -0800

At 10:14 PM 2/12/96 EST, you wrote:

Lucifer, you have a very posi^ve aitude towards T$R, and I suppose I
should nd that commendable, but I do not. Contrary to their claims, they
were not ac^ng towards jus^ce, they were ac^ng in vindic^veness.

I want nothing T$R has to give(except my f***ing issues of Mythic Masters,
which I will never see).

It was Gary and Dave who wrote the system, and if you buy stu from EGS
that Gary and Dave wrote(unless there is absolutely no other way to get it),
I think you are stabbing them in the back.

Mike

aka Pelias the Sorcerer

> I've been discussing things with TSR's online
>representa^ve, Sean Reynolds, recenly, concerning the possible
>future of DJ. The main problem, according to him, is that DJ
>doesn't seem to be a big seller, and the only way TSR would publish
>DJ material is if it thought that it would end up having a great
>deal of support. Therefore, I've decided, jaded as I am, to dive
>head rst into a leker wri^ng campaign to TSR. I encourage every
>man, woman and child reading this to send a snail mail leker
>(e-mail isn't par^cularly eec^ve...it's a bit too easy; snail
>mail shows some real dedicaôn) to TSR in support of DJ. If you're
>married or have a boy/girlfriend who games, get them to send a
>separate leker. Have everyone in your gaming group send a leker,
>don't just sign a pe^ôn. Ask to run a Mythus game at your local
>convenôns, and have people sign peiôns there. Send in ar^cles
>to Dragon and Dungeon magazine. Most importantly, do not, repeat,
>do not be indignant or insul^ng. I think most of us can agree that
>what TSR did to Gygax, DJ, and GDW was reprehensible, but things
>have died down, perhaps enough to let those guys over at TSR take a
>good, long look at the gem they've got. Ran^ng and raving will
>only harm our chances of ever geing DJ back in print. I strongly
>encourage composing your own leker, but for those at a loss as to
>what to say, I humbly propose the following:
>
>---<Clip here>-->
> <your address>
> <date>
>
>Mr. James Ward
>TSR, Inc.
>201 Sheridan Springs Rd.
>Lake Geneva, WI 53147
>
>Dear Mister Ward,
> I am wri^ng in support of the Dangerous Journeys
>Mul^-Genre Game System, formerly published by Game Designer's
>Workshop. It is my opinion that the game system is an innovaôn in
>game design that, with the industry clout, adver^sing power, and
>development capabiliês of TSR, Inc., would become one of the most
>popular fantasy games on the market, perhaps even surpassing your
>already popular AD&D line. I do not believe that the producôn and
>sale of the game, however, would result in a loss of sales for TSR,
>Inc.'s current product line. Dangerous Journeys would be most
>appropriately aimed at the mature gamer, one who is interested in
>the arul complexity and realism that the game presents. AD&D, of
>course, would most probably remain as the ag ship of TSR's product
>line, bringing more and more new gamers into our beloved hobby.
>Dangerous Journeys, however would appeal to those desiring a high
>level of complexity and realism in their games (which I have seen a
>move towards in AD&D, with the Player's Opôn handbooks).
> In conclusion, the ^me and mood of the industry is right
>for the republicaôn of this revoluônary game system. Economic
>problems, on behalf of GDW, retarded the popularity of this system
>originally. With TSR's adver^sing power, it is no doubt that
>the republicaôn of the game system would result in overwhelming
>popularity, both from gamers currently loyal to TSR, and among those
>who have strayed from patronage of TSR products. It would,
>doubtless, achieve the same product loyalty from the gaming
>community that is so strong among those that the game did reach.
>
>Sincerely,
>
><signature>
>
><name>
><^tle, if applicable>
>
>---<clip here>-->
> If you disagree with what I've wriken above, that's cool,
>compose your own leker, post it to Mythus-L for others to use, and,
>most importantly, send it in to TSR today! This may seem dras^c to
>some, but it is simply the only way that we'll see Mythus in
>popular publicaôn. Show them your loyalty, and they will see DJ
>in a new light, and, if enough people send in their lekers, they
>will respond!
>
> Yours in hope,
>
> Rodney W. Morris (Lucifer >:})
>
>->csc3rwm@cabell.vcu.edu |I am the one the only one,
>noc^fer@aol.com |I am the god of kingdom come,
>AD&D GM, Mythus Maniac, Greyhawk Guru|Gimme the prize.
>GURPS Marvel PBEM GM, Marvel-RPG Mang| -- Queen
> Join Marvel-RPG today! Send 'subscribe marvel-rpg' or 'info
> marvel-rpg' to majordomo@stargame.com
>
>

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 01:20:03 -0600
Subject: Mythus game system
X-To: GMAST-L@UTCVM.UTC.EDU
Feb 15, 96 01:32:20 am

I thought I'd reply to this on both the GMAST list and MYTHUS.
That way everyone can get their licks in on me.

> I _know_ Mythus is a high quality game...most people
> I've met either don't know it exists or love it (those few
> detractors of the game I've met haven't actually played it...even
> once..if there is someone around here who has played it and hated
> it, I'd love to discuss the whys and wherefores with you).

OK, I'll discuss it with you. I like Mythus because its beker than
anything else I've seen so far, I s^ll don't love it. I nd the
akribute system to be unecessarily complicated, I don't like the

fact that you must choose an exis^ng Occupaôn for your character
and that there are likle to no rules about making your own
occupaôns. I nd the seing Aerth to be less than sa^sfactory.
The fact that it is trying to do a modern seing where magic has
replaced technology without any examples or detail of even a likle
area dooms it to failure. I also nd the damage system to be perfect
for a High Fantasy superhero type of seing but laughable for anything
else, sabatoging its usefullness as a "mul^-genre role playing system."

I would never, never use it for anything but Heroic Fantasy.

This, coming from someone who uses Mythus exclusively for his fantasy
gaming, and has for the past 3 years (or so). I like it, its not
perfect but it certainly does not deserve the worshipping that it
gets on the Mythus list (but you can excuse that, they are supposed to
there. :)

Dan.
Turncoat, traitor. I admit it. :)
My friends call me an ins^gator.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:14:32 PST

>Without the fantas^c minds of Gygax and Newton, Mythus would be a
>paper-maiche version of the original. No one believes either of them would
>ever work for TSR again, and I wouldn't blame them. A beker response would
>be to try to buy the rights to it and re-publish that way.
>
>DOn
>

Thank you, Don. Actually, I *would* work for TSR, but only if the original
avor of the game were intact (not likely; I agree with a lot of what has
already been said here regarding TSR's homogenizaôn of their games).

Dave=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:22:13 PST

>It was Gary and Dave who wrote the system, and if you buy stu from EGS
>that Gary and Dave wrote(unless there is absolutely no other way to get it),
>I think you are stabbing them in the back.

>
>Mike
>
>aka Pelias the Sorcerer

I appreciate the support. What TSR did is water under the bridge. If every game
designer took company business policy personally, few would want to work for most of
them. While it hurt me personally, I have gone on, as has Gary. If you want to support
me, buy Quintessenâl Mercy Studio products. I and my partners are working hard to
con^nue the release of quality, unadulterated games, and that's the best way to give
people choices.

Dave=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 18:24:43 +0100
From: J|rgen P|nter <puenter@KNIPP.DE>
Subject: Adaman^ne armor - its eects

As promised, here's what Alan Kellog had to say about adaman^ne armor (BTW
it was around mid-1994):

"In the rules as presently wriken all adaman^ne does is add to the quality
(and cost) of the piece of armor. As an opôn, you could use the following
rules:
For each once of adaman^ne used per pound of armorthe protec^ve value of
said armor improves by 5%, to a maximum of 25%. So if a cuirass weighing
twenty pounds had 40 ounces (2 and a half pounds) of adaman^ne added the
cuirass would provide the following protecôn:

Piercing Cuing Blunt Chemical Stunning
11 17 17 17 22

In the case of electrical akack the improvement would be to reduce the
damage bonus by 5%, so the above example cuirass would reduce the damage
bonus for an electrical akack to -9, meaning the Persona wearing the
cuirass would only take an addiônal 9 points of damage from an electrical
akack.

The following is very opônal, but it could be used to keep your players
from wearing pure adaman^ne armor. Just as iron is a new metal for the
folks of Phaeree, so adaman^ne is a new metal for humanity. Mankind is, in
eect, allergic to pure adaman^ne. For every 100 pounds of the metal
within 100 yards of a human the human takes one point of Physical Damage per
Bakle Turn aver one Bakle Turn of exposure. Adjust PD and range for the
actual amount. So a human would suer 2 points of PD if standing within 100
yards of 200 pounds of adaman^ne, but only 1 point if within 101 to 200
yards, or 1 point per 2 BTs if within 201 to 300 yards, aver an exposure of
1 BT if within 200 yards or 2 BTs if within 201 to 300 yards."

That's it. Hope it is of use to you.

Gree^ngs from Germany
J=FCrgen P=FCnter
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:33:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Mythus game system

>>>> I don't like the
fact that you must choose an exis^ng Occupaôn for your character
and that there are likle to no rules about making your own
occupaôns. <<<<

You *must not" do anything. If this part of the system annoys you change it.
Give everyone 248 points (or whatever you need to for your game "level")
assign some guidelines such as 24 or 28 points max with an average score of
12(?) and let them go at it. You might want to lay out a prole such as
24/24/20/16/16/12/8/8......... and let them ll it the k/s areas, this
would prevent the power monsters in your group from assigning 24s to all the
combat or Heka cas^ng skill they want and 4s to everything else.

Let the list know what you come up with.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 23:40:33 -0500

In a message dated 96-02-14 18:01:33 EST, It was wriken:

>(one
>thing TSR's execs are NOT, is stupid)>

You ARE referring to making money, right? With that I will agree.
As far as quality, as of late, I'll have to disagree. But as a commercial
venture, T$R has indeed proved itself as a force to be reckoned with.

Chris

PS. Anybody know exactly when the Sherman An^-Trust Laws will be violated?
When they put under (or buy out) how many RPG companies?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 00:04:21 -0600

In-Reply-To: <960215133325_145066294@emout06.mail.aol.com> from "Richard
Crook" at Feb 15, 96 01:33:26 pm

Thus spake Richard Crook
> >>>> I don't like the
> fact that you must choose an exis^ng Occupaôn for your character
> and that there are likle to no rules about making your own
> occupaôns. <<<<
>
> You *must not" do anything. If this part of the system annoys you change it.

I know, but Lucifer requested a discussion with someone who had played tha
game and did not love it. So I responded, and rather than respond with a
"I played and don't like it," I thought I'd say why.

I have goken rid of most of the occupaôns and am making them up on my
own, but I feel that a really good game system that is skill based
would not make me do this. That's what annoys me the most about this.
Though you did have a very good idea, I will experiment when I get home
by looking at the exis^ng occupaôns and going from there. Anything I
write up I will certainly post here.

I thought I was going to gete a lot more harrassed that I was, does everybody
else feel the way I do or hasn't anyone else checked their mail yet?

:)

Dan.
"To feast with panthers every night, you must be careful Jack the Lad."
-- PSB
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 05:27:26 -0600
Subject: Mythus Firearms Rules - Drav

Thus spake Enki, God of Heaven and Earth
From: dtw@eeyore.idm.com (Enki, God of Heaven and Earth)
Subject: Mythus Firearms Rules - Drav
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 5:04:05 -0600 (CST)

Gang,

In an eort to simultaneously make up for the harsh words I said before
about Mythus and to prove one of my points, I submit the following for
your enjoyment. If you would like to have an explanaôn of the assumpôns
I used in coming up with these stats, I will gladly explain and debate them.
As you will quickly determine, it is not nearly complete. I have developed
this informaôn from Guns, Guns, Guns! published by BTRC, just like the
rst installment in this hobby, I can't really call it a project, which
was distributed by Jesse in an issue of DI, I don't recall which one.
To make sure this is of the highest quality possible I would like input
from the list as to the number of K/S Areas and anything else you feel
would be helpful.

Thanks and enjoy,
Dan.

A Firearm combat system for modern weapons in Dangerous Journeys.

Firearm ROF Modiers
STEEP ROF Mul^plier
1-15 0.5
16-45 1.0
46+ 2.0

Max aimed ROF is 3 ^mes the ROF Mul^plier from the Firearm ROF
Modiers up to the Max ROF of the weapon or the number of bullets
lev in the clip. Each addiônal mul^ple of this that is red
by the shooter is at 1 DR more dicult. I suggest using the
expanded DR table (Hard, Very hard, Dicult, etc.) to more
accutrately represent the eect of recoil on aim. These shots may
be spread evenly among up to 3 dierent targets within the shooter's
forward or side arcs. For example if James has a Walther PPK and
is ring it at Larry, Moe and Curly and has a STEEP of 50 in
Firearms, the rst six shots would be at DR Hard (BAC 50), the
last one would be at DR Very Hard (BAC 37).

It is possible to shoot at more than three targets in a CT, but
this is considered spraying autore and is not as accurate.

SPRAYING AND AUTOFIRE
Aim and pull the trigger, the GM will decide how many OP's or HP's
perish in the hail of lead that follows. Aiming consists of choosing
a general area where your enemies are (presumably).

SPECIAL AMMUNITION:
(Modicaôns before armor should occurr regardless whether target
has any armor, if target has no armor assume an armor value of zero.)

Armor Piercing rounds: Easy way: halve all armor before comparing with
damage done by round. Hard way: mul^ply damage by 1.5 before comparing
with armor then halve remaining damage to target.

Hollow Point rounds: Easy way: double all armor before comparing with
damage done by round. Hard way: mul^ply damage by 0.7 before
comparing to armor, then mul^ply remaining damage by 1.5.

Exploding rounds: Easy and hard way (sorry): halve damage before
comparing with armor, then triple all remaining damage to target.

WEAPON LISTS
Name DAM ROF Clip
Gov't .45 4d6 12 7
Browning Hi-Pow 4d6 12 13
Walther P-38 5d6 12 8
Walther PPK 3d6 12 7
Glock 20 6d6 12 17
Uzi 6d6 30 32
H&K MP5A5 6d6 45 30
Ingram M-10 5d6 51 32
Winchester M94 10d6 1.5 5
Ruger Mini-14 13d6 12 30
FN-FAL 14d6 33 20
AK-47 11d6 30 30
M-16A3 13d6 18 30
KPV 32d6* 30 200
M2 Browning 27d6* 30 200
M60 LMG 15d6 27 200
M134 Minigun 14d6 300 4000

*I think these two weapons illustrate how ludicrous it is to akempt to
use Dangerous Journeys to do modern combat. Granted most players will
not be facing heavy machine guns, or they shouldent. Explosives will
be much more lethal even than the weapons listed here. At rst glance
a Frag grenade will do 15d6, decreasing by half each yard/meter beyond the
blast point and that is without any fragmentaôn eects, which would be
seperate.

Addiônal secôns:
Future Tech weapons (Lasers, etc.)
Explosives and Ultra-Force
Armor and Gizmos

Previous secôns:
Pre-Modern Firearms and Introducôn (Distributed in D.I.)

Peace through superior repower.

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 05:37:52 -0600
Subject: Re: Adaman^ne armor - its eects
In-Reply-To: <MYTHUS-L%96021512232854@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU> from "J|rgen P|nter"
at Feb 15, 96 06:24:43 pm

Thus spake J|rgen P|nter
> The following is very opônal, but it could be used to keep your players
> from wearing pure adaman^ne armor. Just as iron is a new metal for the
> folks of Phaeree, so adaman^ne is a new metal for humanity. Mankind is, in
> eect, allergic to pure adaman^ne. For every 100 pounds of the metal
> within 100 yards of a human the human takes one point of Physical Damage per
> Bakle Turn aver one Bakle Turn of exposure. Adjust PD and range for the
> actual amount. So a human would suer 2 points of PD if standing within 100
> yards of 200 pounds of adaman^ne, but only 1 point if within 101 to 200
> yards, or 1 point per 2 BTs if within 201 to 300 yards, aver an exposure of
> 1 BT if within 200 yards or 2 BTs if within 201 to 300 yards."

For a moment there I thought that if anyone ever collected 100lbs of
adaman^ne in one place everyone on the planet woudl die, eventually.
Then I remembered healing and no^ced the disclaimer (max of 1 point
per 2BTs if within 201 to 300 yards). S^ll it was silly for a
moment.

Sorry to bother you with this, :)
Dan.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 09:27:17 -0500

>Thus spake Richard Crook
>> >>>> I don't like the
>> fact that you must choose an exis^ng Occupaôn for your character
>> and that there are likle to no rules about making your own
>> occupaôns. <<<<
>>
>> You *must not" do anything. If this part of the system annoys you change it.
>
>I know, but Lucifer requested a discussion with someone who had played tha
>game and did not love it. So I responded, and rather than respond with a
>"I played and don't like it," I thought I'd say why.
>
>I have goken rid of most of the occupaôns and am making them up on my
>own, but I feel that a really good game system that is skill based
>would not make me do this. That's what annoys me the most about this.
>Though you did have a very good idea, I will experiment when I get home
>by looking at the exis^ng occupaôns and going from there. Anything I
>write up I will certainly post here.
>
>I thought I was going to gete a lot more harrassed that I was, does everybody
>else feel the way I do or hasn't anyone else checked their mail yet?
>
>:)
>
>Dan.
>"To feast with panthers every night, you must be careful Jack the Lad."
>-- PSB

I feel the same way. It seems silly to have a skill based system and then
bundle skills into vocaôns without any guildlines as to how to make your
own vocaôns. I personaly have just junked the vocaôns and work with my
players to deside what K/S's thay have based on thier history. I nd this
makes for much more in-depth personas. I'll use the vocaôns as guildlines
and some^mes for quick OP's but that's about it.

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 09:27:28 -0500

>PS. Anybody know exactly when the Sherman An^-Trust Laws will be violated?
>When they put under (or buy out) how many RPG companies?
>

What is this about?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 11:30:37 -0500
In-Reply-To: <199602161427.JAA23632@sparc1.glen-net.ca>

On Fri, 16 Feb 1996, Ray A. Dion wrote:

> >Thus spake Richard Crook
> >
> >I have goken rid of most of the occupaôns and am making them up on my
> >own, but I feel that a really good game system that is skill based
> >would not make me do this. That's what annoys me the most about this.
> >Though you did have a very good idea, I will experiment when I get home
> >by looking at the exis^ng occupaôns and going from there. Anything I
> >write up I will certainly post here.
> >
>
> I feel the same way. It seems silly to have a skill based system and then
> bundle skills into vocaôns without any guildlines as to how to make your
> own vocaôns. I personaly have just junked the vocaôns and work with my
> players to deside what K/S's thay have based on thier history. I nd this
> makes for much more in-depth personas. I'll use the vocaôns as guildlines
> and some^mes for quick OP's but that's about it.

What's wrong with the appendix talking about crea^ng Vocaôns? Just
curious.....

[side note: this is one area where Mythus Prime is *denitely* more
pleasant to work with than Mythus..... Vocaôns are trivial in Prime,
and the K/S list is much more manageable. Vocaôns in Advanced Mythus
provide a way of handling the sheer scope, breadth, and depth of the
Advances K/S Areas.]

Now, mind you, I've oered to tailor (and tailored) Vocaôns to suit
par^cular HP concepts, and I've wriken about a dozen for a par^cular
genre module with which I'm experimen^ng, but overall I *like* the
Vocaôn system. It gives guidance without being too restric^ve,
allowing a player to pick a general background and not have to spend lots
of ^me thinking about 'would I have learned A, B, C, D, etc?'. It also
tends to result in HPs with K/S Areas the player would not have chosen
but which prove to be useful in the long run.....

Case in point: The player of Gerard, a Forester (MMM#5), would never have
even considered taking Divinaôn (a par^cularly useful K/S Area).
However, by taking it, he realized that it had potenâl and began using
it. He and Divinaôn served the party quite well, helping them out of a
couple of scrapes and speeding them along in a couple of inves^gaôns.

The biggest problem I have had with GURPS (as a counter example) is that,
in crea^ng a PC, I nd it dicult to generate a reasonable list of
skills for a given PC un^l I have sat down and analyzed it much as I
analyzed Vocaôn concepts in crea^ng the ones I've done. Which
demonstrates (to me) the u^lity and quality of the DJ/Mythus system.

Granted, I can see where one would be of the opinion that the Vocaôns
sê the crea^ve process, are a pain in the neck to work with, and are
generally a nuisance. I respecully disagree, since I nd them a
useful tool (and that's all a gaming system is, really, a tool) in the
pursuit of enjoyable gaming.

Some alterna^ve suggesôns include: give everyone 252 K/S Area points
(actually, given the bonus K/S Areas, it should be something closer to
around 342 points or thereabouts), to divide up *as they see t* into
their K/S Areas. For easy math and reasonable point balance, one should
probably work in lots of 4 (that also allows one to adapt a Vocaôn or
create a Vocaôn with a minimum of fuss). It might be a good idea to
cap at 24 or 28 or (in very special circumstances) even 32, and provide a
suggested distribuôn.

Or: give everyone x points (again 252 or 342 or something) and let them
sink or swim within the K/S lists :-)

Or: take the ^me and spend the eort to create Vocaôns suitable to
the gaming world. Aver all, with very few excepôns, the standard
Vocaôns do tend to lean towards a Heka-centric world view (a la AErth).

Some crazed ramblings,

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 06:57:17 -0800
Subject: Playing Mythus this weekend

Sorry to take up your ^me, but DunDraCon is on here in CA this weekend
and I wanted to invite anyone akending to come over and discuss Mythus
in person -- maybe even play a game!!!

I have a room reserved, but I do not know which yet, so I'll leave my
name posted on the bulle^n board so folks can visit.

Back to the resurrecôn discussion in progress...

Harold Ogle
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:41:04 -0500
In-Reply-To: <m0tnJnA-000AFGC@Uucp1.mcs.net>

Dan
Don't worry. I think we're all changing the rules. It's just so easy... :)

And, btw, a part of the game that I like. (the ability to easily change
rules, that is--did you ever dare try it in AD&D??)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:10:11 -0500


> >PS. Anybody know exactly when the Sherman An^-Trust Laws will be violated?
> >When they put under (or buy out) how many RPG companies?
> >
>
> What is this about?
>
I think they're wondering if the government would step in to break up a
monopoly in the RPG industry if one were to be created. And I think the
answer is no for the simple reason that RPGs are not a separate
category. They would be considered only a part of the Non-Electronic Home
Entertainment industry (which includes things like board games and card
games). T$R has a long way to go before they monopolize the RPG
industry, much less the larger market with giants like Parker Brothers.

Besides that, does anyone really want government regulators in the RPG
industry? I certainly don't.

--Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:04:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Mythus Firearms Rules - Drav
In-Reply-To: <m0tnOO8-000AFSC@Uucp1.mcs.net>

On Fri, 16 Feb 1996, Dan T Williamson wrote:

[snip]

> WEAPON LISTS
> Name DAM ROF Clip
[snip to *'d weapons]
> KPV 32d6* 30 200
> M2 Browning 27d6* 30 200

[snip]
> *I think these two weapons illustrate how ludicrous it is to akempt to
> use Dangerous Journeys to do modern combat. Granted most players will
> not be facing heavy machine guns, or they shouldent. Explosives will
> be much more lethal even than the weapons listed here. At rst glance
> a Frag grenade will do 15d6, decreasing by half each yard/meter beyond the
> blast point and that is without any fragmentaôn eects, which would be
> seperate.
I'm not sure I follow this. Does that mean 30 32d6 bullets lead-hosing (and
possibly levelling) the city? This doesn't make much sense to me.
Granted, I've never been hit by heavy machine gun re (or even been all
that close to it), but I'm not convinced that an individual round would
be quite so deadly. Perhaps an exposure roll based upon a horizontal arc
(which could be narrowed and made more destruc^ve with high STEEP, or a
Weapons, Special Skills [Concentrated Fire] roll) would be more appropriate.

Does this suggesôn make sense? Any comments?

--Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:21:14 -0500


> I feel the same way. It seems silly to have a skill based system and then
> bundle skills into vocaôns without any guildlines as to how to make your
> own vocaôns. I personaly have just junked the vocaôns and work with my
> players to deside what K/S's thay have based on thier history. I nd this
> makes for much more in-depth personas. I'll use the vocaôns as guildlines
> and some^mes for quick OP's but that's about it.

Another plus of Vocaôns is that they allow someone who is new to RPGs,
the fantasy genre, or just not feeling terribly crea^ve to have some
valuable fodder for imaginaôn. Remember that Mythus was wriken as a
system to allow all types to play. In spite of the recent discussion of
Mythus as an 'advanced' gamer's RPG, there have been people for whom
Mythus was the rst, or maybe just the rst fantasy RPG. Not everyone
has had the common experience of playing 1st Ed. AD&D. My rst RPG was
Shadowrun, and then Mythus! (Since I have played AD&D, and was not
impressed.)

I certainly agree that the Vocaôns should not be a limit. And now that
I have played Mythus for several years, I feel condent enough that I
could swim without those water wings, but I s^ll recognize their value
as a teaching tool, and as a source of ideas.

--Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 00:02:33 -0600
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960216144022.1464A-100000@conciliator.acsu.bualo.edu> from "Jesse"
at Feb 16,
96 02:41:04 pm

Thus spake Jesse
> Dan>
> Don't worry. I think we're all changing the rules. It's just so easy... :)
>
> And, btw, a part of the game that I like. (the ability to easily change
> rules, that is--did you ever dare try it in AD&D??)

Changing the rules is a sign that there is something wrong with them,
that was kind of my point. But I usually can't resist tweaking the
rules so that they work the way I want them, regardless of the
system. Yes, I made reams of changes to AD&D. My players s^ll did
not like the fact that it was not skill based and s^ll hated it.
So I was forced to look for alternates, and Mythus t the bill nicely.

Dan.

=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 00:18:21 -0600
from "Mike Phillips" at Feb 16, 96 11:30:37 am

>
> What's wrong with the appendix talking about crea^ng Vocaôns? Just
> curious.....

As I recall, I either have not seen it or did not nd it usefull. I'll
look again.

> The biggest problem I have had with GURPS (as a counter example) is that,
> in crea^ng a PC, I nd it dicult to generate a reasonable list of
> skills for a given PC un^l I have sat down and analyzed it much as I
> analyzed Vocaôn concepts in crea^ng the ones I've done. Which
> demonstrates (to me) the u^lity and quality of the DJ/Mythus system.

I agree with you. Maybe having a list of suggested vocaôns to spur
the imaginaôn and several examples is sucient, if there is a good
system to create your own vocaôns. I always nd that I do not have
enough character points (or whatever) to get every skill that I feel
the character should have to be a good warrior/wizard/thief/assassin/etc.

> Some alterna^ve suggesôns include: give everyone 252 K/S Area points
> (actually, given the bonus K/S Areas, it should be something closer to
> around 342 points or thereabouts), to divide up *as they see t* into
> their K/S Areas. For easy math and reasonable point balance, one should
> probably work in lots of 4 (that also allows one to adapt a Vocaôn or
> create a Vocaôn with a minimum of fuss). It might be a good idea to
> cap at 24 or 28 or (in very special circumstances) even 32, and provide a
> suggested distribuôn.
>
> Or: give everyone x points (again 252 or 342 or something) and let them
> sink or swim within the K/S lists :-)

How's this o the top of my head:
Start with 260 SP, add 11 per bonus K/S Area the HP would have goken for
each Trait. Then the player can purchase K/S Areas as follows:
each point of star^ng STEEP costs:
1 point from 1-16
1.5 points from 17-24
2 points from 25-30
and 4 points over 30.

Minimum star^ng STEEP in any K/S Area is 4.

So to get Magick and Dweomercraev at 24 would cost (16x1+8x1.5) 28 SP
each for a total of 56 SP. I'll try to use this scale to create each
of the Vocaôns in the books and see what it gets me. The JM can alos
discount K/S areas he feels are neat but apparently useless.

Dan.

halfway around the world in the shark-infested waters of true-to-
life living. Or you may nd yourself going down to the store for
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 01:09:53 -0600
From: "Enki, God of Heaven and Earth" <dtw@IDM.COM>
Subject: Mythus Firearm System - Autore Drav

Gang,

Here is the autore secôn of the rearm rules that I sent yesterday.
I was too zoned to con^nue working on them. Next I will come up with
Range numbers for the sample weapons.

Now where did I put that rst run at Firearms? *muker*

Dan.

SPRAYING AND AUTOFIRE
Firing more than 12 shots in a CT is considered autore. In this case
the rer chooses a target or target area and pulls the trigger
unleashing a stream of bullets. The chance to hit a single target is
unchanged, DR Hard. If the target is an area the DR is Moderate.
The target must roll an exposure roll to determine how many bullets
hit. The exposure roll is 1d6-1+((#rounds red-12)/5)-1 per yard/meter
of the target area for each target in the target area or crossing the
target zone in that CT. For example if Arnold sweeps a charging
horde of demons with his M134 Minigun in a 50 yard wide arc, his DR
to hit this area will be Moderate and each demon will take an exposure
roll of [1d6-1+((300-12)/5)-1*50] 1d6+6 hits for 14d6 PD each (ouch!).
Second example: Achmed unloads his AK-47 down the hall at a group of
akacking soldiers, the corridor is 3 yards wide and he res the full
clip (30 rounds) assuming he hits the area where the soldiers are
(makes his akack roll) each soldier in the area must roll an exposure
roll of [1d6-1+((30-12)/5)-1*3] 1d6-1 hits for 11d6 PD each. No^ce I
am rounding 288/5 down to 57 and 18/5 to 3. It is important to note
that regardless of how much Joss or actual luck goes into the
Exposure rolls no more hits can be made than bullets red. The
Exposure roll should also be adjusted by the amount of cover each
target has.

Peace through superior repower.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 22:52:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Playing Mythus this weekend


>Sorry to take up your ^me, but DunDraCon is on here in CA this weekend
>and I wanted to invite anyone akending to come over and discuss Mythus
>in person -- maybe even play a game!!!
>
> I have a room reserved, but I do not know which yet, so I'll leave my
>name posted on the bulle^n board so folks can visit.
>
> Back to the resurrecôn discussion in progress...
>
> Harold Ogle

Sure Harold,
are you going to spring for the plane ^cket?
I'll be there.

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 22:52:32 -0500


>>PS. Anybody know exactly when the Sherman An^-Trust Laws will be
violated?
>>When they put under (or buy out) how many RPG companies?
>>
>
>What is this about?

It's a joke.......get it?
Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 19:31:21 -0400
From: Aran Mull <PUBACM@SAFNET.ALBANY.EDU>

You may hate yourself for this suggesôn. Lucky for you bualo is
far enough away I couldn't do it to oven. How long is the drive
anyway??!?? Is Bualo *really* in New York state?

All kidding aside when, where, what's the seing, how many players,
what are you looking for character-wise.....

Aran.

>
> Take a trip down the thruway, man...
>
> Jesse
> (Bualo)
>
> -> Beavis: "But master, does not your scrotum need kicking?"
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 11:36:11 -0600
In-Reply-To: <199602150659.WAA69428@rho.ben2.ucla.edu>

Why not give TSR a try? If they could, its beker than
nothing.. Even if they do screw up, its not like we've lost anything,
we'll just go back to our old books and pretend it never happened. So
tsr does come out with some cheezy ideas, take em out. I've seen tsr
come out with some preky good ideas too (more cheezy than good but
s^ll) the whole point is that if they tried, nothing would be hurt or
lost from here. Us mythusers would glance at the new books, and hey, if
we like it (TSR might suprise us) then great. If we don't like it,
what's stopping us from NOT buying the rest of the books, and just going
back to what we've been doing? If TSR would consider bringing mythus
back, I'm for it all the way. Barely anyone's heard of mythus, so if
TSR messes it up, its not like DJ's reputaôn will be marked forever.
Anything they send cant hurt.
-Ken
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 13:07:44 -0500

> Why not give TSR a try? If they could, its beker than
>nothing.. Even if they do screw up, its not like we've lost anything,
>we'll just go back to our old books and pretend it never happened.

Wrong. If they screw up it means there will be even more people who will
stay away from the system. A bad product is worse than no product at all.
It will tell people "Hey, this slapdash game is what those mature gamers
were raving about. Try it!" People try it and "BOOM!" they stay away in
droves. Then we have lost credibility and the game will be even more dead
than it is now.

I like it in its current state, undead but s^ll kept animate by us, the
underground worshippers who invest it with a spark of light. As soon as we
accept second-best, the magic that drew us to it will be disjoined and the
work will die a true death. Instead, keep Mythus in its half-life, its
quasi-life, un^l the power is found to resurrect it as what it was meant to
be--the best darned RPG in the world. Then we will enjoy once again the
owering of crea^vity it represents.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 18:07:10 -0500

>Wrong. If they [TSR] screw up it means there will be even more people who will
>stay away from the system. A bad product is worse than no product at all.
> It will tell people "Hey, this slapdash game is what those mature gamers
>were raving about. Try it!" People try it and "BOOM!" they stay away in
>droves. Then we have lost credibility and the game will be even more dead
>than it is now.
>
>I like it in its current state, undead but s^ll kept animate by us, the
>underground worshippers who invest it with a spark of light. As soon as we
>accept second-best, the magic that drew us to it will be disjoined and the
>work will die a true death. Instead, keep Mythus in its half-life, its
>quasi-life, un^l the power is found to resurrect it as what it was meant to
>be--the best darned RPG in the world. Then we will enjoy once again the
>owering of crea^vity it represents.

This sounds nice, but where do you expect to nd this power? I
would love to be involved in working to produce Mythus material, and in a
way I am (by being a member of this list). However, it is unlikely that any
member of this list has the money or inuence to convince TSR to release
its grasp on the rights for Mythus. I feel that if there is a small chance
that Mythus can once again be availiable to the gaming world unchanged, then
we should do what we can to increase that chance. As you said, it is a
great RPG. If TSR butchers the game, we can s^ll keep our game (the real
game) alive, using whatever Necromancy needed ;-)

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 17:46:43 -0600
From: Clay Hanna <clayh@GENESIS.TAMU.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <MAILQUEUE-101.960217193120.1376@safnet.albany.edu>

Hi,

I have been on here before, but I just thought I would let you know some
gaming info. I am chair of MSC Nova, which is the gaming commikee at
Texas A&M University in College Staôn, TX. Any^me anyone wants to get
together and play in that area, let me know. I can provide excellent
faciliês to play in with food and drink nearby. I can probably even
drum up some players for you as well.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
< >
< Clay Hanna Treat good with equal good, >
< Chair, MSC Nova Treat evil with Jus^ce. >
< Journalism Major >
< Class of '98 - The Brazen Rule >
< Email: Dragun@tamu.edu >
< Phone: (409) 691-8929 >
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 18:42:31 -0600

>
> Wrong. If they screw up it means there will be even more people who will
> stay away from the system. A bad product is worse than no product at all.
> It will tell people "Hey, this slapdash game is what those mature gamers
> were raving about. Try it!" People try it and "BOOM!" they stay away in
> droves. Then we have lost credibility and the game will be even more dead
> than it is now.
>
> I like it in its current state, undead but s^ll kept animate by us, the
> underground worshippers who invest it with a spark of light. As soon as we
> accept second-best, the magic that drew us to it will be disjoined and the
> work will die a true death. Instead, keep Mythus in its half-life, its
> quasi-life, un^l the power is found to resurrect it as what it was meant to
> be--the best darned RPG in the world. Then we will enjoy once again the
> owering of crea^vity it represents.
>
Who says TSR will screw it up. Chances are they probably will,
but its worth a shot. What if they do well with the system, especially
if they snag dave to help them on the project. And you say that TSR will
kill it worse, but it makes no dierence-unless us mythusers quit playing
all mythus games all together (even the originals). Personally, I think
DJ would be beker o on the market-true the TSR managers are only
concerned about the money. But what if people start to love the game?
Whats it maker if DJ gets a worse name if TSR screws it up? TSR

are game makers and I dont think theyd put in all their ^me and eort
to screw a game up. even if it gets less popular-unless it aects the
old books we have in our posessions now(like they burn up in ames when
we touch them) we dont have anything to lose :)
-ken
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 00:30:30 -0500
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NXT.3.90.960218174332.19042A-100000@genesis>

Well, two of us on the list (hi, Ryan <wave>) are playing in
Williamsburg, VA (USA) at William & Mary, along with a couple of
friends. The 'ocial' group has ve players plus myself as JM,
although one is currently rather busy with homework and another is
swamped with theatre and only played part of the session today.

We're s^ll playing, and the players are currently dealing with a small
incursion from the Goblinrealms into Vargaard (in Iroukian territory,
just outside of Grandmark, to be precise). Fortunately, it was a small
force of Goblins, and they have dealt with most of it so far. Of course,
there is this minor detail of a gate betwixt the Goblinrelams and
Vargaard which was cyclical and has been anchored such that it is now
permanent..... They're s^ll dealing with that problem :-)

Hm. It occurs to me that some^me soon, when I'm a likle more coherent,
this should be wriken up as a campaign journal for the list.....

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 12:56:08 +0100

At 00:18 17-02-96 -0600, you wrote:
>Thus spake Mike Phillips
(snip)
>> The biggest problem I have had with GURPS (as a counter example) is that,
>> in crea^ng a PC, I nd it dicult to generate a reasonable list of
>> skills for a given PC un^l I have sat down and analyzed it much as I
>> analyzed Vocaôn concepts in crea^ng the ones I've done. Which
>> demonstrates (to me) the u^lity and quality of the DJ/Mythus system.
>
>I agree with you. Maybe having a list of suggested vocaôns to spur
>the imaginaôn and several examples is sucient, if there is a good
>system to create your own vocaôns. I always nd that I do not have
>enough character points (or whatever) to get every skill that I feel
>the character should have to be a good warrior/wizard/thief/assassin/etc.

Let me rst state that I do like the Vocaôn system. Most reasons are
already menôned. It may be a likle restric^ve, but makes live simpler
for those who don't want to make a Vocaôn from scratch.

Further, I think it's good that a HP can't directly start as a "good
warrior/wizard/thief/assassin/etc.". The power is DJ as a skill bases system
is that one can *EARN skills* through gaming. Just save those AP's for a
while, and buy yourself a completely new KS area that ts your character.

It should take ^me to build an omnipotent HP! Most players I've encountered
start their HPs rela^vely young, say between 25 and 30 years of age.
Now if you want a good warrior/wizard/thief/assassin/etc. don't you want to
give him/her a steep of 50-60 in several of those area's?
If I remember correctly (I don't have the books at hand), a steep of 60 is
comparable to holding a modern doctorate from a university. Well, I've
nished mine when I was 29. So I took me a while to get it, and I must say,
its really extremely, extremely rare that a person holds two or more
doctorates. So I think it's also a maker of realism to start with a chosen
Vocaôn, extend it with some bonus KS areas so the HP may be a good Warrior
and an adequate wizard. In ^me, the HP may, or may not, gain the wanted
knowledge.
Trying to obtain a new KS area opens up new possibilês for role-playing.
And that is what DJ is about, isn't it? Not about crea^ng a demi-god when
you start a new HP. He/She might become one if they live that long :)

Harold Stringer
_____________________________________________________________________

Work: Private:
1315 KT Almere Tel/Fax +31 - (0)36 53 64 798
The Netherlands
Tel +31 - (0)36 53 43 445
Fax +31 - (0)36 53 47 265


Are you interested in Bacteriology, Virology or Parasitology?
Have a look at: hkp://www.xs4all.nl/~biopharm
for interes^ng data and links to related sites!
_____________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 12:56:15 +0100
Subject: Campaign journals

Mike, at 00:30 19-02-96 -0500, you wrote in Re: Hello, anyone playing?:
(snip)
>Hm. It occurs to me that some^me soon, when I'm a likle more coherent,
>this should be wriken up as a campaign journal for the list.....

I like this idea.

Although it's a lot of work, I keep a kind of journal/diary on the planned
scenario and the players acôns. If more JM's do this, maybe we can swap
journals and learn from each others scenarios.

Even if we don't learn from each other, I expect there will be usable ideas
in the campaign journals.

Comments, please.

Harold Stringer
biopharm@xs4all.nl
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 12:05:16 -0500
Subject: Merchandise

From ^me to ^me, I have no^ced people wan^ng DJ merchandise that they
can't seem to nd. If any of you want some DJ stu, I know where you can
get it. At least one of everything (Mythus, Mythus Magic, Epic of Aerth,
Necropolis, even some Journey's Magazines)

E-Mail me
Chris Stainton
StaintonC@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 10:08:33 -0800
Subject: Re: Campaign journals
In-Reply-To: <199602201156.AA15317@xs1.xs4all.nl>

> Although it's a lot of work, I keep a kind of journal/diary on the planned
> scenario and the players acôns. If more JM's do this, maybe we can swap
> journals and learn from each others scenarios.
>
> Even if we don't learn from each other, I expect there will be usable ideas
> in the campaign journals.
>
> Comments, please.
>
> Harold Stringer
> biopharm@xs4all.nl
>
I like the idea of combining a 'planned campaign' journal with a journal
of what actually happened...which is perhaps less of a DJ issue than a
general gaming one, to see how the best laid plans gang av agley and so
on...but I think it owuld be interes^ng to have both.

Harold
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 00:35:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Journals (fwd)

This is from Doyce--he says Mythus-L doesn't like him anymore, so it
won't let him send anything to the list...

I, unfortunately for you guys, have no such problem... :)

Jesse

---------- Forwarded message ---------Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 17:12:22 -0700
From: Doyce Testerman <bear@spieg.interealm.com>
To: jgris@acsu.Bualo.EDU
Subject: re: Journals

>(snip)
>>Hm. It occurs to me that some^me soon, when I'm a likle more coherent,
>>this should be wriken up as a campaign journal for the list.....
>
>I like this idea.
>
>Although it's a lot of work, I keep a kind of journal/diary on the planned
>scenario and the players acôns. If more JM's do this, maybe we can swap
>journals and learn from each others scenarios.
>
[snip]

<stealing a Amber DRPG idea here, regarding journals>

1> Have a player do the journal... award 1 (or 2) extra AP's per session for
such labor.

2> Not to exclude other folks, I suggest similar rewards for keeping
'Character POV' diaries (in the voice of the Persona), doing character
sketches... wri^ng short côn about the characters... or NPC's or
whoever, so long as it's game related... hell, I even allow poetry.

3> Only two such point-bonus tasks per player... ie: dairy and log for example.

Extra bonus: heightens sense of the Persona and such things are oven a
rollicking good read for the GM...

PS: giving two separate people the Log Job is a cool idea too... you'd be
surprised how dierent each can be... and what one includes that the
other skips...
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 10:10:50 EST
Subject: Re: Journals (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960221003316.2277B-100000@orichalc.acsu.bualo.edu>; from "Jesse" at
Feb 21,
96 12:35 am

> This is from Doyce--he says Mythus-L doesn't like him anymore, so it
> won't let him send anything to the list...
>
> I, unfortunately for you guys, have no such problem... :)

Waitaminute...is this a technical problem or was someone
banned from the list?!!?

Lucifer >:}
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 13:58:21 -0500
Subject: Grandmark: The Saga So Far

This is a (brief) synopsis to bring folks up to date on what has happened
in my Grandmark campaign so far. Further details on a given piece will
be available upon request, but this is just to 'set the stage', so to
speak. Two of the adventures put in capsule form below are available
from my Mythus web page, where they are wriken up in some detail.

AErth start date: mid-spring AAF 995
Campaign start date: late January, 1995

Seing: Northeast Vargaard, primarily Grandmark

Regional History (capsule form): There are several naôns involved in
the area, none described in any signicant detail in Epic of AErth.

Grandmark: Ravaged and torn by religious wars aver decades of
ineectual leadership, this vibrant naôn is on the rise again. The
Markthegn Tarrant, who was thought to be an ineectual fool much like
his father and grandfather, turned out to be a strong and charisma^c
leader. He has given the naôn and the people a purpose, and he is
forcefully bringing it forward. He has taken to hiring eec^ve agents
to pursue his goals (perfect HP lead-ins), and he is beset with problems
while trying to reclaim lands that once belonged to Grandmark.

Falcondonia: Concerned with the sudden and rising star of Grandmark, the
leadership is worriedly glancing north, concerned that Grandmark, long
considered a peky nuisance at most, might become very powerful in short
order. Falcondonia is currently pursuing local alliances, in par^cular
they are very friendly with Wildedge in the event of Grandmark's aggression.

Wildedge: This small naôn was once part of Grandmark, un^l it broke
away due to religious persecuôn. Most of the followers of the Kell^c
pantheon lev Grandmark to form Wildedge during the reign of Tarrant's
grandfather. The strife within Grandmark has prevented any signicant
repercussions to date, but it is thought that the Markthegn is eyeing the
rebellious colony with acquisi^ve eyes.

Jarlesheim: Large, ponderous, and disorganized, this group of independent
homesteads and small towns is mostly unaligned. Wildedge has approached
several of the southern lords in the hopes of a pact against Grandmark's
aggression, but nothing has come of this for certain. Grandmark has
warned Jarlesheim away from Wildedge, and things are tense along the
border shared by Grandmark and Jarlesheim.

Nova Scoâ: Separated from the poli^cs by the large buer known as
Jarlesheim, Nova Scoâ has some Wildedge leanings (for cultural
reasons), but it is mostly unconcerned. Rumor has it that the Markthegn
has approached this naôn with an agreement in the case of Jarlesheim
becoming over-aggressive or akemp^ng to throw its weight around.

Iroukia: Very likle is known of this na^ve naôn, other than it calls
itself the 'Six Naôns'. It is considered to have very eec^ve
warriors, and all the naôns are concerned that too much pushing west
will wake the sleeping giant, so to speak.

==========================================================================
Heroic Personas:
Gerard (Forester)
Firedancer (FP Elemental Mage)
Mahlau Sai (Priest of Kuan Yu)

Horaô diPadua (Engineer)
Johannes (Witchnder)
Jintari (PP Grey Mage)
San^ni (Assassin, er, scout)

The Markthegn called the group together, to inves^gate a series of
disappearances in the port town of Lisolet. The disappearances were
occuring in a seedy secôn of town, and one of the most powerful madams
was threatening to start a major scandal which would have rocked the
Markthegn's power if he didn't do something, and soon.
The HPs (Gerard, Firedancer, Mahlau, and Horaô) were sent in to
deal with the problem. As they inves^gated, they determined that
something sinister was afoot: the girls appeared to be murdered by some
ravenous creature. The iniâl search of the sewers was unproduc^ve and
exceedingly dangerous: they were beset by a ghoul which nearly slew them
all, and by a pack of Raies.
The destrucôn of the aforemenôned creatures did not stop the
akacks, which were increasing in frequency. Clever use of Divinaôn
led them throuh the sewers into a secôn of Subterranean AErth wherein
they encountered the creature in its own lair. The force behind the
akacks was a former Vestal Virgin who was taking out her delement on
those she blamed: young fops and harlots.
In a terrible bakle, the HPs managed to overcome her, but ed when
the statue she worshipped animated. The dark ame from which she drew
much of her power was not recovered.

[In the middle of this, when the group couldn't get together in full for
a session, I ran a brief dream sequence, an encounter with Coyote, the
Na^ve American trickster :-) ]

Some ^me later, aver repor^ng to the Markthegn, the HPs were
assigned to recover a very important and powerful personage: Taknari
Chang, a par^cularly skilled Diviner from Ch'in. Johannes and Jintari
were added to the group. The party had a premoniôn before seing out,
an omen poin^ng to the rise of a terrible evil in the area.
Taknari, it turns out, was being held on a great carrak called
Conquistador, registered to Hispanola. Unbeknownst to the HPs, he was
being held by a powerful witch and her consort, the captain of the
vessel. In addiôn to the normal crew complement, there were 20 (or so)
mercenaries kept separate in case of emergencies.
One of the crew managed to get hired as the cook, and he slipped the
crew a massive sleeping poôn (all the party members with Herbalism
worked together to make a *really* large and eec^ve batch), which took
them out of the picture. Then, they slipped aboard to rescue Taknari,
seing of alarms and traps lev and right (such as the spirits of some
warriors guarding the chest with Taknari's belongings).
Once back on the open deck, they discovered that there were
mercenaries on board, and the witch was cheerfully raining devastaôn on
their heads. While the mercenaries were easily dealt with, the witch
proved much more eec^ve (as did the captain, who akacked their
rear). The captain escaped out a porthole, although he was s^ll in some
fairly heavy armor, and the witch disappeared over the side aver a
couple of par^cularly powerful Heka akacks blasted her. The party does
not know if they died or not.

This brought the game up to late spring AAF 995, and so they retruned
to Tremayne with their prize. Taknari became one of the Markthegn's
advisors, and most of the HPs were sent on a mission to deliver a treaty
to Nova Scoâ. The trip was not unevenul and involved guarding a
small band of Vargonaesi (Vargaard gypsies) who had been decimated by
na^ve tribes, and some minor diploma^c maneuverings. Some short ^me
later, they returned, some two game months passing.
They returned to a city in chaos, for, unbeknownst to all, Coyote had
returned. He had uncorked a powerful ar^fact which was thought to be
carefully guarded and concealed, an ar^fact hidden under the largest
temple of Venus in Tremayne: the Aphrodisiac of Aphrodite. The ci^zens
were cheerfully [descripôn omiked for the sake of decency]. Uker
chaos. The party managed to get some informaôn, and they were able to
re-cork the phial. A rollicking end to the semester's gaming :-) (ok,
I'm a slow JM)

The campaign was suspended for the summer, and things didn't work out
right in the fall (we played a modied version of Mythus Prime sort of
scaker-shot), but we started up again last month. More later.....

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 20:54:33 EST
Subject: More on Mythus
X-To: Game Master's Listserv <gmast-l%utcvm.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

Before I reply to Dan's comments about Mythus, I'll reprint
that address lekers in support of Mythus should be sent to:

James Ward
TSR, Inc.

Now on with the show...

From: Dan T Williamson <dtw@idm.com>
Subject: Mythus game system

>> I _know_ Mythus is a high quality game...most people
>> I've met either don't know it exists or love it (those few
>> detractors of the game I've met haven't actually played it...even
>> once..if there is someone around here who has played it and hated
>> it, I'd love to discuss the whys and wherefores with you).
>
>OK, I'll discuss it with you.

Kewl. It's actually somewhat good that someone out there
has a contrary opinion of it.

> I like Mythus because its beker than
>anything else I've seen so far, I s^ll don't love it. I nd the
>akribute system to be unecessarily complicated,

That's one of it's best points, in my opinion, that the
akribute system is detailed. In any game which tries to simulate
realism, a wealth of akributes are always necessary. Besides,
there are really only six stats, each with the same division
(capacity, power and speed), something I've never seen in any other
game system (which doesn't mean it's not out there, btw). What do
you mean by 'unecessarily complicated'? Which scores are
unnecessary?

>I don't like the
>fact that you must choose an exis^ng Occupaôn for your character
>and that there are likle to no rules about making your own
>occupaôns.

It is a mixture of a class based and a skill based system.
However, there are rules for crea^ng your own Vocaôns. See
Appendix E, p. 386 of the _Mythus_ book for more informaôn.

>I nd the seing Aerth to be less than sa^sfactory.
>The fact that it is trying to do a modern seing where magic has
>replaced technology without any examples or detail of even a likle
>area dooms it to failure.

I do agree that Aerth does leave something to be desired.
However, it is a choice of style, I think, not quality. Gygax has
always published material that gives you the bare bones, star^ng
points, if you will, with a wealth of detail, but likle on how you
should run your specic campaign world. I think this is
benecial, and prevents such silly arguments like 'but the Overking
is evil and hates petunias, it says so right here'.

> I also nd the damage system to be perfect
>for a High Fantasy superhero type of seing but laughable for anything
>else, sabatoging its usefullness as a "mul^-genre role playing system."
>I would never, never use it for anything but Heroic Fantasy.

As someone who's worked on a science côn genre for
Mythus, I know it is very possible to run a game that is not High
Fantasy. In fact, if I were to rate the game, as far as realism
goes, I would rate it as Low Fantasy (if you look at everything but
the Magick system, which is, indeed, High Fantasy, but not lacking
in realism).
To give an example, we'll take your average farmer, "John",
who can take up to 70 points of damage before death, is wounded
aver taking 52 points of damage, and is knocked out aver 63 points
of damage. Rob Roy, a new adventurer of the Mercenary Vocaôn, is
walking about the countryside of York looking for an easy kill.
He's got his brand new Claymore on his shoulder, and decides to
akack John for his daughter.
The good rogue MacGreggor needs at least a Physical Muscular
Power (PMPow) of 20 to even hev the sword, which means his
PMCapacity must also be 20 or more. We'll assume his other stats
are all average for an adventurer, which is a 15. His Combat, Hand
Weapons skill is composed by adding 20 to the average of his PMCap
and his Physical Neural Capacity (PNCap). Thus, his base skill to
hit is 37.5, which we'll round to 37 (he is new at this, aver
all). Thus, Rob Roy MacGreggor has an akack rate of 3 every 2
Combat Turns.
The Claymore has a base damage of 6D6, which averages 21
points of damage. Rob gets a +8 to damage from his high PMPow and
no bonus from his skill level (though he would at 41). That takes
his damage up to 29, for a Non-Vital hit. If he were to get a Vital
hit, that'd be 58 points of damage, 87 for a Super-Vital hit
(killing him), and 116 with an Ultra-Vital hit. If we take into
account the possibiliês for making each type of hit, Rob Roy
MacGreggor will deal out an average of 50.75 points of damage per
hit, which is 76.125 points of damage per round (remember, 1.5
akacks per round). Wiping out poor John isn't dicult with such
a weapon, at all, and it shouldn't be. I think this reects an
inherent realism in the game. Even the most stalwart of mortal
warriors could handle the full 176 points of damage that the weapon
can deal out (and would be hard pressed to survive 96 points of
damage that is the long sword's maximum, and could only survive one
such hit). If we take into account Rob's chance to hit, we've got
him dealing out an average of 28.16625 a round, because he's
inexperienced. If you know how to use a weapon, you're deadly with
it, but if you don't, you can s^ll hack away at someone as long as
they'll let you.
Perhaps it's not the combat system you take excepôn with,
but I like playing around with the numbers, partly for my own
edicaôn. Maybe I should ask exactly what parts of the system
you feel is too 'superheroic'?

>This, coming from someone who uses Mythus exclusively for his fantasy
>gaming, and has for the past 3 years (or so). I like it, its not
>perfect but it certainly does not deserve the worshipping that it
>gets on the Mythus list (but you can excuse that, they are supposed to
>there. :)

I do, indeed, think that the Mythus game is the best game
out there (okay, it's not _technically_ out there any more ;) ). It
is a game that is easily converted into any genre, in my opinion
(I'll nd out how successful my conversions are soon enough...I'll
be running that sci game some^me in the near future). I'm not
certain that 'worship' is the right term, because it seems to
suggest a certain blind faith, which I don't believe I do have, but
that's just me.

Lucifer >:}

marvel-rpg' to majordomo@stargame.org
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 21:24:11 EST
Subject: Yet more on Mythus

I've responded to these points separately from the previous
post, as the previous one was made to GMAST and MYTHUS-L, not just
to MYTHUS-L. With that said, read on!

From: Chris Calvert <calvert@ucla.edu>

>Lucifer, you have a very posi^ve aitude towards T$R, and I suppose I
>should nd that commendable, but I do not. Contrary to their claims, they
>were not ac^ng towards jus^ce, they were ac^ng in vindic^veness.

What evidence do you have to back up this claim? Perhaps it
was a mixture of the two, at least? I'm not saying that what they
did was en^rely ethical, but a company the size of TSR just doesn't
do things that cost that much out of vindic^veness.

>I want nothing T$R has to give(except my f***ing issues of Mythic Masters,
>which I will never see).

It's too bad you've censored yourself so much, TSR has a lot
of good material out these days, some of which is easily applicable
to other game systems, including Mythus.

>It was Gary and Dave who wrote the system, and if you buy stu from EGS
>that Gary and Dave wrote(unless there is absolutely no other way to get it),
>I think you are stabbing them in the back.

Which is stabbing them in the back more, leing Mythus die
a whimpering death or celebra^ng the game system by proving to TSR
and the whole world what a fantas^c system it is? They've
published some fantas^c stu, that only an elite group currently
have access to. I'm geing personally ^red of the eli^sm, we're
star^ng to inbreed around here, and I don't think it's one bit fair
that all those lonely souls out there s^ll playing Mythus who don't
have net.access have to rely only on what they and the six or so
members of their gaming group can come up with. Do you?
There is only one way this will be remedied. TSR will never
sell the rights to Mythus, not to a coaliôn to gamers and
certainly not to another company. Either Mythus gets published by
them or no one. These are hard facts, but ones we have to face. I
think the world's greatest game system deserves more than a quiet
demise!


>> You *must not" do anything. If this part of the system annoys you change it.
>
>I know, but Lucifer requested a discussion with someone who had played the
>game and did not love it. So I responded, and rather than respond with a
>"I played and don't like it," I thought I'd say why.

Exactly what I wanted, and I appreciated that. :)

>I thought I was going to gete a lot more harrassed that I was, does everybody
>else feel the way I do or hasn't anyone else checked their mail yet?

Personally, I think a great deal of the iniâl passion that
surrounded Mythus has died o, becoming jaded or worse (what, not
another leker wri^ng campaign). It's my belief that this leker
wri^ng campaign can and will work, if everyone gets together and
helps me out on this. I can't do it alone (but, by God, I'm going
to do exactly that, if I have to ;) ).

>I feel the same way. It seems silly to have a skill based system and then
>bundle skills into vocaôns without any guildlines as to how to make your
>own vocaôns. I personaly have just junked the vocaôns and work with my
>players to deside what K/S's thay have based on thier history. I nd this
>makes for much more in-depth personas. I'll use the vocaôns as guildlines
>and some^mes for quick OP's but that's about it.

To menôn something I've menôned before, the guidelines
for making your own Vocaôns do, indeed, exist (p. 386 of the
_Mythus_ book). I hope this alleviates your concerns about the
system. If so, please write in to TSR and tell them how you feel!


>> Wrong. If they screw up it means there will be even more people who will
>> stay away from the system. A bad product is worse than no product at all.
>> It will tell people "Hey, this slapdash game is what those mature gamers
>> were raving about. Try it!" People try it and "BOOM!" they stay away in
>> droves. Then we have lost credibility and the game will be even more dead
>> than it is now.

It is impossible to get more dead than it is now. If TSR
publishes a op, those of us who love the system will s^ll
con^nue to play by the old rules and love it just as much. I'm not
that concerned, at this point, what reputaôn Mythus gains from
this (I don't personally play the game for the reputaôn it has in
the industry), as long as it gains _some_kind_ of recogniôn.
Right now, it has no reputaôn, because a very select few know
anything about it.

>> I like it in its current state, undead but s^ll kept animate by us, the
>> underground worshippers who invest it with a spark of light. As soon as we
>> accept second-best, the magic that drew us to it will be disjoined and the
>> work will die a true death. Instead, keep Mythus in its half-life, its
>> quasi-life, un^l the power is found to resurrect it as what it was meant to
>> be--the best darned RPG in the world. Then we will enjoy once again the
>> owering of crea^vity it represents.

Okay, I'm listening: what's your plan? How do you intend to
get that power?

> Who says TSR will screw it up. Chances are they probably will,
>but its worth a shot. What if they do well with the system, especially
>if they snag dave to help them on the project. And you say that TSR will
>kill it worse, but it makes no dierence-unless us mythusers quit playing
>all mythus games all together (even the originals). Personally, I think
>DJ would be beker o on the market-true the TSR managers are only
>concerned about the money. But what if people start to love the game?

It's that possibility that we must cling to. There is no
insurance that TSR will screw this up, but there is equally no
insurance that they won't. I understand the passionate opposiôn
to TSR, I even experienced it myself for quite some ^me aver the
seklement. But, quite succinctly, it's ^me to get over it. Our
hatred for TSR out of the love of Mythus must stop, before it
destroys that thing we love so much.

> Whats it maker if DJ gets a worse name if TSR screws it up? TSR
>are game makers and I dont think theyd put in all their ^me and eort
>to screw a game up. even if it gets less popular-unless it aects the
>old books we have in our posessions now(like they burn up in ames when
>we touch them) we dont have anything to lose :)

Agreed. This is, quite simply, a win-win situaôn for us
old Mythus-lovers. If TSR ops it, it has recogniôn, and we can
convert. If TSR is successful, we've got our beloved system vibrant
again, and it's due to our eorts! Think on it.

If you do decide to send o that leker, the address
follows:

James Ward
TSR, Inc.

Lucifer >:} yours in hope

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 10:52:31 +0100
Subject: Re: Yet more on Mythus

At 21:24 21-02-96 EST, you wrote:
> I've responded to these points separately from the previous
>post, as the previous one was made to GMAST and MYTHUS-L, not just
>to MYTHUS-L. With that said, read on!

What's the GMAST? A Game Mastes List? How do I subscribe?

>> Who says TSR will screw it up. Chances are they probably will,
>>but its worth a shot. What if they do well with the system, especially
>>if they snag dave to help them on the project. And you say that TSR will
>>kill it worse, but it makes no dierence-unless us mythusers quit playing
>>all mythus games all together (even the originals). Personally, I think
>>DJ would be beker o on the market-true the TSR managers are only
>>concerned about the money. But what if people start to love the game?
>
> It's that possibility that we must cling to. There is no
>insurance that TSR will screw this up, but there is equally no
>insurance that they won't. I understand the passionate opposiôn
>to TSR, I even experienced it myself for quite some ^me aver the
>seklement. But, quite succinctly, it's ^me to get over it. Our
>hatred for TSR out of the love of Mythus must stop, before it
>destroys that thing we love so much.

My idea. Any akenôn to Mythus is beker than none. Even if the publicity
would be unfavourable, it's publicity. Any respectable journalist supports
the the noôn of hearing and wri^ng about _both sides_ of the story, so
any distruc^ve arguments could be easily negated.
At least we get a chance to be heard by the rest of the gaming community.
Have you ever experienced talking to long-^me gamers on your favourite game
system Dangerous Journeys, and heard their ignorance: "What game system?
Mythus? Never heard of it, and I know _all_ systems!".

>> Whats it maker if DJ gets a worse name if TSR screws it up? TSR
>>are game makers and I dont think theyd put in all their ^me and eort
>>to screw a game up. even if it gets less popular-unless it aects the
>>old books we have in our posessions now(like they burn up in ames when
>>we touch them) we dont have anything to lose :)
>
> Agreed. This is, quite simply, a win-win situaôn for us
>old Mythus-lovers. If TSR ops it, it has recogniôn, and we can
>convert. If TSR is successful, we've got our beloved system vibrant
>again, and it's due to our eorts! Think on it.

Let's be pragma^c about this.

What do I want:
- a supported skill-based fantasy role-playing game system that is easily
altered to suit my needs, and is easily extended with new ideas, and has
sucient depth and realism to be capable of remaining interes^ng for
years and years of playing

What do I have:
- an undead game system on life-support that ts most of the above
menôned criteria perfectly, like being skill-based fantasy role-playing
game system that is easily altered to suit my needs, and is easily extended
with new ideas, and has sucient depth and realism to be capable of
remaining interes^ng for years and years of playing:
MYTHUS of the DANGEROUS JOURNEYS MULTI GENGRE ROLE PLAYING GAME SYSTEM

What do I lack:
- support

And this is the (only) criterium that is not fullled. So only one thing
has to be changed in the current situaôn. (Always look on the bright side
of life! Think posi^ve :) )
Just let's face it, the lack of support is what I perceive to be _the
biggest issue_ in using MYTHUS. All those things on vocaôns etc. are just
minor details.

What can we do:
- leker wri^ng campaign: has been started (again, if I read the comments
correctly)
- support it ourselves: is being done on this list (Mythus Fantasy
Roleplaying Game List <MYTHUS-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
- be ac^ve on convenôns: organise MYTHUS sessions
- write to gaming clubs with informaôn on MYTHUS they can publish in their
club magazine
- write to gaming magazines to get editorial akenôn and free publicity
for TSR's unused property MYTHUS
- get the owing company to support MYTHUS
- bombard the AD&D list with informaôn on MYTHUS
- start a crusade on the AD&D list to convert those unbelievers and her^cs
to MYTHUS adepts
- like we saw on this list, other game systems are menôned here, and
discussed with respect to their merits. Let's do this on all lists we know about
- there are several very crea^ve people on this list that have the
capability to write very good MYTHUS scenario's. Write them in such a way
that they are specic to MYTHUS and then add an appendix that tells about
the advantages of MYTHUS, and how to downscale this fantas^c scenario to
more primi^ve game systems like AD&D and the like. Selling the scenario to
a journal give two benets: you earn a buck, and MYTHUS is supported.
- let's lure those unbelievers and here^cs into the Holiest of Holiest of
the Temple of MYTHUS: the MYTHUS-List, to be informed on and converted to
the One True Gaming System and be absolved for their deeds under the yoke of
the Evil Game System.
Enter here ye unbelievers, be blessed in the name of MYTHUS. Pray with us:
"Holy Mythus, hallowed be thy Name, blessed be thy Books, grant us wisdom in
the Realms of Gaming, and guide us in conver^ng the indels." Convert now
and save thy Gaming Soul (or be crusied on the spot:) ).
- ..
- ..
- in brief: GET ATTENTION TO MYTHUS
- there must be lots of things I haven't thought of yet.

Please add to this list. Be crea^ve. Posi^ve and construc^ve nega^ve
comments are appreciated. Come on, last ^me I checked, there were 195
subscribers to the MYTHUS-List. There must be a zillion crea^ve ideas around.
We have to "seduce" TSR, not wage war on it. To make a bad
comparison (I know, don't ame me), let's see the issue of "resurrec^ng"
MYTHUS as the bakle against communism. We couldn't ban communism from the
face of the earth by direct war (luckily, because this would have been
dissastrous to both parês). In recent years, Eastern Europe has seen the
light, and is abandoning communism (or trying very hard to). This has been
done by inuencing the new generaôn of leaders, and educa^ng the people
with high-powered radio transmissions from the free West. It took ^me, but
it worked. Let's work on the new generaôn of managers in TSR, and work on
the gaming community to make them see the Light, and to have them embrace
the One True Gaming System: DANGEROUS JOURNEYS.
TSR should be convinced that it is beker to have both systems
(MYTHUS and AD&D) on the market. This way TSR would have the large market of
the ignorant masses (AD&D), whilst not loosing the (important and
inuenâl niche) market of gamers that want an advanced gaming system
(DANGEROUS JOURNEYS). Otherwise, some young upstart company may nd a way
to work around the copyrights of TSR, and steal the complete market away
from TSR. Leaving TSR broken, loosing fortunes and looking back sadly at its
giant managerial mistake not to market DANGEROUS JOURNEYS when they had the
chance to consolidate the market under their leadership and keep the
aggresive new comer at bay.
James Ward.... Hint, hint.... ;)

Anyone on the list who works for a company that sell games and knows about
marke^ng FRGP's and is willing to share this informaôn with us?
Any business students who would like to prac^ce wri^ng a business plan for
MYTHUS? Aver discussion we could "give" it to TSR. ("give" means trading it
e.g. for the right to discuss MYTHUS unharrassed on this list.)

Even more pragma^c: If we can't beat them (TSR), let's join them, and
change them from the inside. Anyone willing to get a job with TSR?

By the way, is TSR a public or a privat company? If it's public, we may try
to buy some shares, and be present on shareholder mee^ngs to demand the
"resurrecôn" of DANGEROUS JOURNEYS. Such schemes work even for large
mul^naônals as Shell, so why not for smaller companies?

>If you do decide to send o that leker, the address follows:
>
>James Ward
>TSR, Inc.
>201 Sheridan Springs Rd.
>Lake Geneva, WI 53147
At least four lekers from our group are "en route" to TSR.

Harold Stringer
_____________________________________________________________________

Work: Private:
1315 KT Almere Tel/Fax +31 - (0)36 53 64 798
The Netherlands
Tel +31 - (0)36 53 43 445

Fax +31 - (0)36 53 47 265


_____________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 13:50:10 -0500

Just as another idea. Do people think it would be good to emphasize the
other genres of Dangerous Journeys? (aka Unhallowed, Changling, the
Abyss?)

I know that none of these three ever got published. How many were
actually bought by T$R in the seklement? I had heard that at least one
of them was about to go to press (perhaps literally on the typeseker's
desk) when the seklement stopped all DJ producôn. Does anyone know
their fates?

The reason I ask about this is that no maker how "advanced" we may
consider Mythus to be, it would s^ll be a potenâl compe^tor to AD&D.
Both are fantasy RPGs. One is sick (AD&D), the other is dying/undead
(Mythus). I believe that T$R may feel that being an "advanced" system
isn't enough of a dis^ncôn to separate the markets. On the other hand,
T$R has never (to my knowledge) had a truly successful supernatural
horror or sci- RPG. They may nd the idea of expanding into those
markets more palatable than giving themselves a run for their money.

Of course, if they *did* happen to publish a modern horror or sci- RPG,
and gamers heard of a well-wriken 'precursor FRPG', there might be more
support for resurrec^ng it.

Point being, I will be sending in a leker to T$R which calls not only
for reprin^ng the Mythus genre of DJ, but for a complete resurrecôn of
the Dangerous Journeys mul^-genre system. And I would encourage others
to do the same.

--Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 14:35:48 -0500

In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9602221351.B20399-0100000@blackbird.birds.wm.edu>

On Thu, 22 Feb 1996, Snead Ryan W wrote:

> Just as another idea. Do people think it would be good to emphasize the
> other genres of Dangerous Journeys? (aka Unhallowed, Changling, the
> Abyss?)

[Gee, Rodney, nice to be menôned with the 'canonical' genres, eh? :-) ]

> I know that none of these three ever got published. How many were
> actually bought by T$R in the seklement? I had heard that at least one
> of them was about to go to press (perhaps literally on the typeseker's
> desk) when the seklement stopped all DJ producôn. Does anyone know
> their fates?

Unhallowed and Changeling. The Abyss is the brainchild of our very own
Rodney Morris :-) and AFAIK hasn't been bought by anyone.....

Although *I* like it :-)

> isn't enough of a dis^ncôn to separate the markets. On the other hand,
> T$R has never (to my knowledge) had a truly successful supernatural
> horror or sci- RPG. They may nd the idea of expanding into those

Ravenlov. S^ll alive and kicking, AFAIK. Masque of Red Death (the
'modern' version didn't do so well) was Ravenlov for 'Gothic Earth' AKA
a dark'n'gloomy late 1800's and (very) early 1900's game. Didn't last.

> Point being, I will be sending in a leker to T$R which calls not only
> for reprin^ng the Mythus genre of DJ, but for a complete resurrecôn of
> the Dangerous Journeys mul^-genre system. And I would encourage others
> to do the same.

I am rmly of the opinion that our best bet is to emphasize the
mul^-genre nature, and I would *REALLY LIKE* to see Unhallowed and
Changeling. Printed. For real :-)

I hope they do it. They could use the system, and I'd like the game
back.....

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 13:14:07 -0700

From: Chris Davies <cdavies@GPU.SRV.UALBERTA.CA>

On Thu, 22 Feb 1996, Mike Phillips wrote:

> > T$R has never (to my knowledge) had a truly successful supernatural
> > horror or sci- RPG. They may nd the idea of expanding into those
>
> Ravenlov. S^ll alive and kicking, AFAIK. Masque of Red Death (the
> 'modern' version didn't do so well) was Ravenlov for 'Gothic Earth' AKA
> a dark'n'gloomy late 1800's and (very) early 1900's game. Didn't last.
>
S^ll kicking.
That company whose name I shall not menôn in this forum is
actually expanding on the boxed set, which they weren't planning on doing
iniâlly ...
So, despite the Buck Rogers/Gamma World Debacle, the EGC has
managed to expand their general system into realms it wasn't intended to
go ...

Chris Davies.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 15:51:21 -0500

On Thu, 22 Feb 1996, Mike Phillips wrote:

>
> > Just as another idea. Do people think it would be good to emphasize the
> > other genres of Dangerous Journeys? (aka Unhallowed, Changling, the
> > Abyss?)
>
> [Gee, Rodney, nice to be menôned with the 'canonical' genres, eh? :-) ]
>
> Unhallowed and Changeling. The Abyss is the brainchild of our very own
> Rodney Morris :-) and AFAIK hasn't been bought by anyone.....
>
> Although *I* like it :-)
Ooops! Hey, if T$R decided that they would rather try publishing a completed
Cybermyth, Hardwired, DJ:SUPERS, (did I miss anyone's favorite homebrew
genre?), I certainly wouldn't mind, so long as the authors were suitablely
reimbursed (and the permissions got).

> Ravenlov. S^ll alive and kicking, AFAIK. Masque of Red Death (the
> 'modern' version didn't do so well) was Ravenlov for 'Gothic Earth' AKA
> a dark'n'gloomy late 1800's and (very) early 1900's game. Didn't last.
Hmmm...s^ll not modern supernatural horror though. And you certainly can't
do Cthulupunk with it.

--Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 18:57:24 -0500
From: Derek Winter <Wintrewind@AOL.COM>
Subject: How do I get in..?

Im new and really interested in this thing so can somebody show me the
light...?

--Derek Winter
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 19:04:12 -0500
Subject: that leker...

someone send me that form leker to T$R again...my en^re gaming group wants
to send out lekers...

Hoo Rah

Bill

"Why for you put me in the cold cold ground?" --Taz
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 22:42:46 -0500
From: Hagenbuch/Kohler <hagendaz@POSTOFFICE.PTD.NET>
Subject: File conversion (aaaarrrghhh...)

As the subject indicates, i've got a le conversion problem. I was sent
the MS Publish or whatever they were versions of the oriental adventures
rules and the Cyberpunk conversion (Cybermyth). Aver months of siing on
my hard drive, i was nally able to convert them and they came out garbled
(insert long anguished scream). Anyway, if anyone could send me or tell me
where to get ASCII versions of those 2 items, i'd really apreciate it.

Thanks for a great job keeping Mythus alive,

Charles Hagenbuch
hagendaz@postoce.ptd.net
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 23:07:59 EST
Subject: Re: that leker...
In-Reply-To: <960222190411_330186853@emout08.mail.aol.com>; from "William A
Helm" at Feb 22, 96 7:04 pm

> someone send me that form leker to T$R again...my en^re gaming group wants
> to send out lekers...
>
> Hoo Rah

FANTASTIC! Though I _strongly_ advise each person create
their own leker (it's much more eec^ve), here it is...

---<clip here>-- <your address>
<date>

Mr. James Ward
TSR, Inc.

Dear Mister Ward,

Sincerely,

<signature>

<name>

---<clip here>--
Lucifer >:}

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 23:16:37 EST
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9602221351.B20399-0100000@blackbird.birds.wm.edu>;
from "Snead Ryan W" at Feb 22, 96 1:50 pm

> Just as another idea. Do people think it would be good to emphasize the
> other genres of Dangerous Journeys? (aka Unhallowed, Changling, the
> Abyss?)

Though I'm akered that you made the error, Abyss was
never planned to be part of the ocial DJ line, just some sci
rules I started to bash out (and have just recenly returned to). I
do think it would be useful to promote DJ as a mul^-genre system,
if only to 'get a foot in the door', so to speak. Go for it!

Lucifer >:}
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 23:38:05 EST
Subject: Stellar Catalogue?

Hiya.
I'm looking for a large lis^ng of stars (including
locaôns, spectral types, and luminosity), preferably something
available through vp or the web (I've not enough money to keep
searching the web through AOL). If anyone can point me in the right
direcôn, I'd appreciate it :)
I'd like to be as realis^c as possible with the locaôn of
systems in Abyss. I've already goken a list of the closest 11
stars or so (which comprises those systems under the rulership of
Sol), but I need to start working on the alien territories
surrounding it, as well :)
Again, thanks for any assistance you can render.

Lucifer >:}

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 01:25:28 -0800

At 10:52 AM 2/22/96 +0100, you wrote:
>At 21:24 21-02-96 EST, you wrote:
>> I've responded to these points separately from the previous
>>post, as the previous one was made to GMAST and MYTHUS-L, not just
>>to MYTHUS-L. With that said, read on!
>
>What's the GMAST? A Game Mastes List? How do I subscribe?
>
>>> Who says TSR will screw it up. Chances are they probably will,
>>>but its worth a shot. What if they do well with the system, especially
>>>if they snag dave to help them on the project. And you say that TSR will
>>>kill it worse, but it makes no dierence-unless us mythusers quit playing
>>>all mythus games all together (even the originals). Personally, I think
>>>DJ would be beker o on the market-true the TSR managers are only
>>>concerned about the money. But what if people start to love the game?
>>
>> It's that possibility that we must cling to. There is no
>>insurance that TSR will screw this up, but there is equally no
>>insurance that they won't. I understand the passionate opposiôn
>>to TSR, I even experienced it myself for quite some ^me aver the
>>seklement. But, quite succinctly, it's ^me to get over it. Our
>>hatred for TSR out of the love of Mythus must stop, before it
>>destroys that thing we love so much.

T$R has already destroyed it. Mythus without Gygax and Newton is
not Mythus, but a chimeric abominaôn and insult to and perversion of the
original creaôn.

I personally am not worried about my gaming, I have the books, and
adapt rst Ed AD&D, some Pendragon and Tolkien stu, and everything works
well.

BTW people, here's a trivia quesôn.
What formerly ac^vely published campaign world was lev to wither
on the vine, in spite of the fact that it was extremely successful and popular?
Now then, who was its writer?

What honestly makes you guys think T$R even wants Mythus to work?

There is no f***ing way I ever buy Mythus from the company that
pursued and destroyed it out of malice.

No f***ing way.

The ease with which you forget what kind of people you are dealing
with/talking about is surprising. Buying Mythus from these people would be like

I simply refuse to have anything to do with those, shall we call
them...people. Much less, want them to take take something I love, something
they akacked with the intent to destroy.

If you want to approach those fuckers humbly, hat in hand, aver what they
fuckin did to us, that's your business, but you can bet I won't be with you.

I don't need 'em, I FUCKING hate them, and I always will.

>
>My idea. Any akenôn to Mythus is beker than none. Even if the publicity
>would be unfavourable, it's publicity. Any respectable journalist supports
>the the noôn of hearing and wri^ng about _both sides_ of the story, so
>any distruc^ve arguments could be easily negated.
>At least we get a chance to be heard by the rest of the gaming community.
>Have you ever experienced talking to long-^me gamers on your favourite game
>system Dangerous Journeys, and heard their ignorance: "What game system?
>Mythus? Never heard of it, and I know _all_ systems!".
>
>>> Whats it maker if DJ gets a worse name if TSR screws it up? TSR
>>>are game makers and I dont think theyd put in all their ^me and eort
>>>to screw a game up. even if it gets less popular-unless it aects the
>>>old books we have in our posessions now(like they burn up in ames when
>>>we touch them) we dont have anything to lose :)

Aver Blood Pressure returns to normal levels

Finally, prac^cal problem:

Reac^va^ng Mythus would require bases of support larger than that
for systems such as Al-Quadim, Greyhawk, and other discon^nued T$R lines.
Greyhawk-which EVERYBODY knew and REALLY WANTED was buried by T$R
aver Gygax lev, to erase his presence.
How can you guys be so deluded to think these people really want
anything Gygax does to be produced.

Why do you guys think T$R won't rerelease the classic module series
of Gygax's day, in spite of the fact that it would be extremely successful?

BECAUSE T$R HATES GYGAX!!!!

Heeellllooooo!! Heeelllloooo?

Sean Reynolds handed you a pacier, and you guys are sucking away.

Mike

You can call me a pessimist if you choose, I simply refuse to delude myself.

PS-Now, WHY does T$R hate Gygax?-that is the real quesôn. I suspect it
has something to do with the fact that Gygax's ex-wife owns a massive chunk
of the company, and the fact that his manner was not terribly popular with
his employees.

See immediately following post for more important informaôn(if that
doesn't sound like a commercial, I don't know what does)

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 01:25:31 -0800

> I've responded to these points separately from the previous
>post, as the previous one was made to GMAST and MYTHUS-L, not just
>to MYTHUS-L. With that said, read on!
>
>
>From: Chris Calvert <calvert@ucla.edu>
>Subject: Re: PLEASE READ! Support your favorite game system!
>
>>Lucifer, you have a very posi^ve aitude towards T$R, and I suppose I
>>should nd that commendable, but I do not. Contrary to their claims,=
they
>>were not ac^ng towards jus^ce, they were ac^ng in vindic^veness.
>
> What evidence do you have to back up this claim? Perhaps it
>was a mixture of the two, at least?

> Which is stabbing them in the back more, leing Mythus die
>a whimpering death=20
(interes^ng-I thought it had been in Licheform for quite a while now, quite
past death)

>or celebra^ng the game system by proving to TSR
>and the whole world what a fantas^c system it is?

I thought I made this clear already.

This is a private correspondence I had with Sean, which ended a few weeks
ago. I think you will nd answers to some of the quesôns you posed me.
The lines immediately below were his nal words.

Return-Path: TSRInc@aol.com
From: TSRInc@aol.com
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 11:20:37 -0500
To: calvert@ucla.edu
Subject: Fwd: Re: TSR/DJ

Perhaps you'd like to send this to the en^re list? About two=20
messages ago, you replied privately to me, and so I replied
privately back to you.=20
-Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSRinc@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | hkp://users.aol.com/tsrinc/

--------------------Forwarded message:
From: calvert@ucla.edu (Chris Calvert)
To: TSRInc@aol.com
Date: 96-02-15 02:02:07 EST

At 02:17 PM 2/12/96 -0500, you wrote:
>> Look, you are ignoring something here.
>> T$R aggressively pursued DJ.
>> The writers didn't say, "Hmmm, let's bring this to T$R and see
what
>> they think". Gary and Co fought tooth and nail for a year and half to
>> retain possession of their game...
> =20
> But it wasn't "their game." Gary had a contract which said that any
>work done on company equipment belonged to the company, and there was
>evidence that he had done so.

What evidence?

>Thus, DJ already belonged to TSR.

So you are saying Gary and Dave wrote the en^re game(before Gary
and Dave met), then Gary lev T$R with Frank Mentzer and I forget the other
person, wrote and released Cyborg Commando, waited six years, then released
Mythus.=20

I am aware that this was the grounds upon which the suit was led,
and I am aware that T$R won by PAYMENT.

If it was stolen from T$R, why haven't I seen anything in Mythus
that vaguely resembles anything T$R has released?

=20
>> They obviously didn't try very hard to make it work, so they
>weren't
>> interested in its future. =20
>> How can anyone look at this and see this as anything but an
akempt
>> to destroy this great game or as a vendeka?
>> Why else go to such lengths for a game that is so radically
>> dierent, (violates no copyright laws)?
> =20
> TSR wanted _its_ property back.

I would certainly want my property if it was taken from me.
Unfortunately T$R cannot prove that DJ was its property. It had to pay to
get rights to the material, which T$R if *owned* DJ, it never would have had
to. If the proof convinced the judge, (which T$R had one and a half years to
do) (s)he would have simply awarded DJ to T$R. This simple fact proves that
T$R never owned it to begin with.

TSR has a right to pursue that.=20
>TSR's copyrights were violated the moment those les (or printouts) lev
>the building and were shown to someone else.
>

I am interested in seeing one shred of *proof* that this is what actually
happened. Saying something one thousand ^mes doen't make it even slightly
true without proof. With proof, nothing need be said.

The lawsuit led alleged that DJ was a deriva^ve product of AD&D, NOT that
Gary and company *stole* T$R property-which is the line constantly
trumpeted. (I have this directly from him, and I am quite sure he knows
what he was being charged with).

Mike

BTW The rules for DJ were wriken for the Changeling system, which has
nothing to do with fantasy(EX the magic/special powers rules being vril
based, not heka based)much less AD&D. The Changeling rules were then
*converted* over to Mythus
rules(or so I have gathered indirectly, this might be in error, but I don't
think so)

"In the land of T$R
where the lawyers lie"

As to charges of eli^s^sm, I'd scan my books and send 'em out tomorrow to
everyone in the whole world, except (guess who) T$R would send troops of
ravening lawyers aver me

Which inspires a new beast!!!!(I looooove it!!!!)

T$R LAWYER

Idenêr:I don't name scum=20
Habitat:scum
Size: scum-size
( )
Number Appearing:1-1000 (appears as a scum colony)=20
Modes & Rates of Movement:ooze slither and crawl at light speed
Walk: scum rate
Slither: ooze speed

Iniâ^ve Modiers: InHuman Standard
Outstanding K/S Areas/Sub-Areas & STEEP:Annoy 101
Irritate 101
and make themselves a general pain in the ass 101

Joss Factors: -1000=20
Dodging/Avoidance: scum can't dodge
Akrac^veness: so ugly that Automa^c insanity=20
Invulnerabiliês: akacks by gamers=20
Suscep^biliês: high velocity phlemglobbers
Average Armor Protecôn: unneeded
Quirks: yes=20
Akacks BAC Damage Type Base Bonus
Pseudopod chemical 1000d1 +1000

Powers: =20

Emit Noxious Odor

Area of Eect:one square mile =20
Delivered by:thought =20
Range: innite
Time:
Duraôn:as long as maintained =20
Frequency:10/CT =20
Descripôn: Instant Death(No avoidance)

Cas^ngs: Bukmunch projec^le(grade VIII)
=20
Sta^s^cal Detail: Why bother-you can't kill 'em
Base Scheme (+/- 1D=95)
M: EL: P: WL: CL: S: EL:=09
MM: MR: PM: PN: SM: SP:=09
MMCap: MRCap: PMCap: PNCap: SMCap: SPCap:=09
MMPow: MRPow: PMPow: PNPow: SMPow: SPPow:=09
MMSpd: MRSpd: PMSpd: PNSpd: SMSpd: SPSpd:=09
Armor Scheme:
PIER CUT BLUNT FIRE CHEM STUN ELEC
Ultra =09
Super =09
Vital =09
Non =09
Average =09

The origin of these twisted beings are shrouded in gloomy darkness,
but recently, much has been learned. At will they spout ames of
Supernatural Potentcy(10d6 dmg-no avoidance), and once per month can Destroy
Server(En^âl level grade XXII). When trooping in number in excess of
100, these doomed souls can do this once per AT.
But most feared is the ability to carry out the Great Ritual-Destroy
RPG. This ritual requires great ^me periods(up to one and a half years) to
perform, and requires the blood sacrice of a thousand cakle and ten
senênt beings per month maintained. Although the lawyers some^mes fail,
they are known to be especially potent against certain RPGs. Worst of all,
they have perfected the Destroy RPG By Gary Gygax Ritual, which requires
sacrices of goodwill, loyalty, and public opinion. Nonetheless, it is a
powerful ritual to be reckoned with. =20
These goblinkind troop and are known to be the henchmen/lapdogs of
the TCEs(T$R Corp Execs)

I'm sure someone else can do a much beker job of parodying, so feel free.

Ignore this damn sig, its my friend's.

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 07:26:37 -0600
Subject: Re: Stellar Catalogue?
Feb 22, 96 11:38:05 pm

> I'm looking for a large lis^ng of stars (including
> locaôns, spectral types, and luminosity), preferably something
> available through vp or the web (I've not enough money to keep
> searching the web through AOL). If anyone can point me in the right
> direcôn, I'd appreciate it :)
> I'd like to be as realis^c as possible with the locaôn of

> systems in Abyss. I've already goken a list of the closest 11
> stars or so (which comprises those systems under the rulership of
> Sol), but I need to start working on the alien territories
> surrounding it, as well :)
> Again, thanks for any assistance you can render.

Lucifer,

I know this isn't really going to help much, but 2300AD has the best list of
stars within 50 light years of Sol that I have ever seen. It comes complete
with stellar informaôn and x,y,z coordinates. They came from some more
scien^c catalog, whose name I forget. E-mail me at home and I will
look for the name when I read it tonight.

Dan.

Work: dtw@idm.com
home: enki@suba.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 08:42:31 -0500
In-Reply-To: <199602230925.BAA92258@rho.ben2.ucla.edu>

On Fri, 23 Feb 1996, Chris Calvert wrote:

> BTW The rules for DJ were wriken for the Changeling system, which has
> nothing to do with fantasy(EX the magic/special powers rules being vril
> based, not heka based)much less AD&D. The Changeling rules were then
> *converted* over to Mythus
> rules(or so I have gathered indirectly, this might be in error, but I don't
> think so)

Um, er. According to MMM, Mike McCulley and Gary Gygax met in 1987 at
DragonCon, where Mr. McCulley had a gorgeous Call of Cthulhu scenario.
They decided to collaborate on a modern supernatural horror game, and in
1988 Mr. Gygax sent his *rst* set of notes to Mr. McCulley, and things
went back and forth from there. In 1990, the computer side of the
release said 'No, horror doesn't sell well enough, make it fantasy', and
thus was born the idea to make Mythus rst and Unhallowed second. In
retrospect, a poor choice (since the computer side never materialized).
The Mythus manuscript was about 1800+ pages, in toto, aver the two got done.

There are other, sundry details, but the gist of it was that Mr. Gygax
had been kicking the idea of a mul^-genre game around for a while, but
he did not begin work on it un^l 1987, and the resul^ng game was
Unhallowed.

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 09:09:42 -0500
From: Patrick Murphy <murphy@GIBBS.OIT.UNC.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <m0tpxas-000AFOC@Uucp1.mcs.net>

On Fri, 23 Feb 1996, Dan T Williamson wrote:

> Thus spake Prince O. Darkness
> > I'm looking for a large lis^ng of stars (including
> > locaôns, spectral types, and luminosity), preferably something
> > available through vp or the web (I've not enough money to keep
> > searching the web through AOL). If anyone can point me in the right
> > direcôn, I'd appreciate it :)
>
> I know this isn't really going to help much, but 2300AD has the best list of
> stars within 50 light years of Sol that I have ever seen. It comes complete
> with stellar informaôn and x,y,z coordinates. They came from some more
> scien^c catalog, whose name I forget. E-mail me at home and I will
> look for the name when I read it tonight.

As a long-^me fan of 2300AD, I must second this. Moreover, I have the
whole Near Star List in .DBF format, I believe (and you could easily
convert it to another format) that I got from God-only-knows-where on the
Net. I could send you a copy, if only as insurance that Abyss will
happen... ;^)

Ciao,
Patrick M.
murphy@gibbs.oit.unc.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 14:38:14 +0100
Reply-To: mat3@leicester.ac.uk
From: Kage <mat3@LEICESTER.AC.UK>

If you happen to have the opportunity, check out GDW's "2300 AD:
Man's Bakle for the Stars." It's not FTP, but the map that you get
with the game is worth it alone. Unfortunately, I don't happen to
know how available this game is on the market.

--MARK

Mark Trickek, Archaeology Leicester Uni)

"Watch out for that knife, it's razor sharp."
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 14:31:46 PST
From: chris barnes <bu6467@WLV.AC.UK>

> I know this isn't really going to help much, but 2300AD has the best list of
> stars within 50 light years of Sol that I have ever seen. It comes
complete
> with stellar informaôn and x,y,z coordinates. They came from some
more
> scien^c catalog, whose name I forget. E-mail me at home and I will
> look for the name when I read it tonight.
>
> Dan.

Which looks VERY similar to a map from an old SPI game called
"Universe". Crap game, nice map including a formula for working out real
distances using x,y,z coordinates maps.

Not that this helps much...

chris barnes
>
> Work: dtw@idm.com
> home: enki@suba.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 16:04:54 -0800

At 08:42 AM 2/23/96 -0500, you wrote:
>On Fri, 23 Feb 1996, Chris Calvert wrote:
>
>> BTW The rules for DJ were wriken for the Changeling system, which has
>> nothing to do with fantasy(EX the magic/special powers rules being vril
>> based, not heka based)much less AD&D. The Changeling rules were then
>> *converted* over to Mythus
>> rules(or so I have gathered indirectly, this might be in error, but I don't
>> think so)

>There are other, sundry details, but the gist of it was that Mr. Gygax
>had been kicking the idea of a mul^-genre game around for a while, but
>he did not begin work on it un^l 1987, and the resul^ng game was
>Unhallowed.

As I said above I wasn't sure. The point is the rules weren't
wriken for, they were adapted to, fantasy, which makes the whole deriva^ve
work deal patently absurd.

Mike

>
>
>

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 16:14:29 -0800

At 09:01 AM 2/23/96 PST, you wrote:
>Chris,
>
>Please post to the list for me:
>
>Thanks for the manic post. You almost sounded like me there for a minute.
:) If

>more people realized the way Mythus was buried, they wouldn't suck up to
the great

>and powerful Oz in hopes that reason would prevail and the game would be

>resurrected. It won't be; sure they will take fundamental parts out of it
and use

>it in the EGS, but Mythus is dead as a published system.
>
>And if anyone ever wanted to entertain the idea that this whole thing was not

>personal, I can dispel that right now. (Listen up, kids) TSR's destrucôn of

>Mythus was, ul^mately, personal. I'm not going to get into all the reasons
why,

>but let's just say that there is a certain person at TSR with way more
clout than

>she should have who hates Gary.
>
>Chris is right, and despite the fact that I'd LOVE to take TSR's cash to work

>on DJ again, IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. Case closed.
>
>I haven't bought anything from those bastards since they started the
process of

>burying DJ. Remember, it wasn't just a game that I loved playing; It was my
break

>into this industry. And I take shit like that personally. With the specic

>people involved. Unfortunately, that tends to reect on my dealings with the

>en^re company.
>
>Thanks, Chris, for reminding me that there are principles involved. As for

>everyone who would deal with TSR, there are two ways to negoâte with
people like

>that: On your feet or on your knees. And yes, it *is* your choice.
>
>Dave>
>Life is a series of collisions with the future; it is not the sum of what
we have

>been, but what we yearn to be. -Jose Ortega y Gasset
>
>
>

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 02:22:27 -0500



> T$R has already destroyed it. Mythus without Gygax and Newton is
>not Mythus, but a chimeric abominaôn and insult to and perversion of the
>original creaôn.
>
> I personally am not worried about my gaming, I have the books, and
>adapt rst Ed AD&D, some Pendragon and Tolkien stu, and everything works
>well.
>
> BTW people, here's a trivia quesôn.
> What formerly ac^vely published campaign world was lev to wither
>on the vine, in spite of the fact that it was extremely successful and
>popular?
> Now then, who was its writer?
>
>
> What honestly makes you guys think T$R even wants Mythus to work?
>
> There is no f***ing way I ever buy Mythus from the company that
>pursued and destroyed it out of malice.
>
> No f***ing way.
>
> The ease with which you forget what kind of people you are dealing
>with/talking about is surprising. Buying Mythus from these people would be
>like
>
>
>I simply refuse to have anything to do with those, shall we call
>them...people. Much less, want them to take take something I love, something
>they akacked with the intent to destroy.
>
>If you want to approach those fuckers humbly, hat in hand, aver what they
>fuckin did to us, that's your business, but you can bet I won't be with you.
>
>I don't need 'em, I FUCKING hate them, and I always will.<

Thank you for that reality check,
I second your emoôn

Chris Stainton
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 02:22:28 -0500



>Finally, prac^cal problem:
>
> Reac^va^ng Mythus would require bases of support larger than that
>for systems such as Al-Quadim, Greyhawk, and other discon^nued T$R lines.
> Greyhawk-which EVERYBODY knew and REALLY WANTED was buried by T$R
>aver Gygax lev, to erase his presence.
> How can you guys be so deluded to think these people really want
>anything Gygax does to be produced.
>
> Why do you guys think T$R won't rerelease the classic module series
>of Gygax's day, in spite of the fact that it would be extremely successful?
>
> BECAUSE T$R HATES GYGAX!!!!
>
> Heeellllooooo!! Heeelllloooo?
>
> Sean Reynolds handed you a pacier, and you guys are sucking away.
>
>
>Mike
>
>You can call me a pessimist if you choose, I simply refuse to delude myself.
>
>PS-Now, WHY does T$R hate Gygax?-that is the real quesôn. I suspect it
>has something to do with the fact that Gygax's ex-wife owns a massive chunk
>of the company, and the fact that his manner was not terribly popular with
>his employees.<

Thanks for that reality check,
I second that emoôn (whoa! Deja Vu)

I don't think people understand the word "loyalty"
Or if they understand it's meaning, they don't grasp the concept.
T$R obviously doesn't

Love them Lawyers,
C
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 06:43:32 -0600
In-Reply-To: <199602240004.QAA74904@rho.ben2.ucla.edu> from "Chris Calvert" at

Feb 23, 96 04:04:54 pm

Thus spake Chris Calvert
> As I said above I wasn't sure. The point is the rules weren't
> wriken for, they were adapted to, fantasy, which makes the whole deriva^ve
> work deal patently absurd.

I hate geing involved in these kind of temper tantrums, but didn't the
leker you sent from Sean Renolds (The T$R "Online Rep") say they claimed
it was wriken on T$R wordprocessors and thus their property? Which would
make the "deriva^ve work" lawsuit absurd, but it is s^ll a copyright
violaôn.

I'm sorry it all happened, and especially sorry that Dave's big break into
the gaming industry was crushed over what was probably a personal vendeka,
but shouldent he be glad that he got a break? That's more than I ever had.

Enough crying over spilt milk, you want to support the game? Then write
some quality stu for it.

Dan.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 15:14:35 -0500

>At 09:01 AM 2/23/96 PST, you wrote:
>>Chris,
>>
>>Please post to the list for me:
>>
>>Thanks for the manic post. You almost sounded like me there for a minute.
>:) If
>
>>more people realized the way Mythus was buried, they wouldn't suck up to
>the great
>>and powerful Oz in hopes that reason would prevail and the game would be
>>resurrected. It won't be; sure they will take fundamental parts out of it
>and use

>>it in the EGS, but Mythus is dead as a published system.
>>
>>And if anyone ever wanted to entertain the idea that this whole thing was not
>
>>personal, I can dispel that right now. (Listen up, kids) TSR's destrucôn of
>
>>Mythus was, ul^mately, personal. I'm not going to get into all the reasons
>why,
>
>>but let's just say that there is a certain person at TSR with way more
>clout than
>
>>she should have who hates Gary.
>>
>>Chris is right, and despite the fact that I'd LOVE to take TSR's cash to work
>
>>on DJ again, IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. Case closed.
>>
>>I haven't bought anything from those bastards since they started the
>process of
>
>>burying DJ. Remember, it wasn't just a game that I loved playing; It was my
>break
>
>>into this industry. And I take shit like that personally. With the specic
>
>>people involved. Unfortunately, that tends to reect on my dealings with the
>
>>en^re company.
>>
>>Thanks, Chris, for reminding me that there are principles involved. As for
>
>>everyone who would deal with TSR, there are two ways to negoâte with
>people like
>
>>that: On your feet or on your knees. And yes, it *is* your choice.
>>
>>Dave
HEAR HEAR!

I have also boycoked all T$R products. They suck, and I refuse to
nacially support a company that would seek and destroy a great RPG out of
spite.

I believe that this list does more for Mythus than any sort of
puplishing company could. This list is a great, free, and intellegent
source of ideas and material (like the Heka-Forging re-write, good job,
BTW). I realize that not having Mythus on the market prevents most people
from experiencing this RPG and I realive that many players do not have
internet acsess. But, I feel that Mythus is going through an evoluôn that
would only be possible because of this list and its members. I don't belive
that Mythus is dead. It lives and improves every day.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 17:24:22 +0100


2300 AD Map...

It would be easier if you could program all the points into some 3d
graphics generator (or something)... it sure would speed up ^me.
Otherwise, you're stuck with looking up the x, y and z coordinates
and then throwing them into the formula:

D = sq.rt.([Xo-Xd]^2 + [Yo-Yd]^2 + [Zo - Zd]2)

where D = distance, o = origin, d = des^naôn.

Sorry, I know that everyone would know that one, but I just thought
that I would try to look like a high-brow ;-)

As a point of interest, what kind of star-drive was going to be used?
How does it move through space? I'm always interested in new and
interes^ng star-drives...

Cheers
--MARK

Mark Trickek, Archaeology Leicester Uni)

"Mind the blade, it's razor sharp."
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 15:31:48 EST
Subject: Re: More on Mythus
X-To: GMAST-L@UTCVM.UTC.EDU
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960222161920.28879B-100000@suba01>; from "Dan
Williamson" at Feb 22, 96 4:46 pm

<complexity of akribute system quesôning deleted>

> I feel that all of the Capacity, Power, Speed akributes are unneccsary.
> If they want to be detailed I would rather they use something like
> Dexterity, Quickness, Strength, and Cons^tuôn or some other more
> meaningful nomenclature than PNSpd, PMSpd, PMPow, PNPow etc. I agree
> that a wealth of akributes is necessary for a detailed game system, but
> I don't really like the way they went about it. Taste, I guess.

Not much I can argue against taste, except to say that I
think it would have been much, much more confusing to remember 18
dierent words which had no relaôn to each other than it is to
remember the iniâls to the six akributes and their associated Spds,
Pows and Caps. Taste, I guess. :)

<stu on appendix for create vocaôns deleted>

> Pause, while I look up that Appendix......
>
> The appendix basically says, bundle a bunch of K/S Areas and give them a
> star^ng STEEP total of 248 or 252. Not much help, I could have guessed
> that without any assistance from the author. Regardless, I am thinking
> about making my own guidelines for designing Vocaôns.

But your complaint was that the guidelines weren't there.
Anyways, I'm not certain what more guidelines you would suggest in
the creaôn of new vocaôns, but it sounds like the current system
is about as liberal as you can get (without trashing Vocaôns
altogether, which if that is what you're for, we've goken down to
'taste' again :) ).

> I liked Greyhawk a lot. I guess I just don't like what he did for the
> seing. Again, personal taste.

The thing I didn't like about AErth is that, while it was
obviously high fantasy, there seemed to be a derth of unusual races
running about. I mean, it was menôned a few ^mes that they were
there, but that all the weirdo races were either from Pharee or
underground somewhere. Tres boring, to me.

> > Perhaps it's not the combat system you take excepôn with,
> > but I like playing around with the numbers, partly for my own
> > edicaôn. Maybe I should ask exactly what parts of the system
> > you feel is too 'superheroic'?
>
> It is precicely the fact that the average person has a whopping 70 points
> and damage is rolled in d6 increments. As far as modern weapons go, I
> suppose you've seen my posts on the Mythus List of the modern weapons.
> If a long sword does 4d6, then an M16 will do 14d6. That's an unweildy
> amount of dice. I can't imagine how much damage a laser might do (well I
> could, I just haven't worked it out). How about a plasma gun? Do you
> really want to roll the 100d6 a plasma gun might do? No, neither do I.
> It is this huge amount of dice that limits its usefulness in a modern
> seing. Oh, by the way the M16 does 14d6 for *each* bullet and can
> easily re 18 rounds in a CT. But most people die when they get shot,
> so its realis^c that way.

A moment. You're saying that, if one bullet from an M-16
hits a person in the shin or hand or some other Non-Vital area, it
will average 70% of the total damage they could take (if a Physical
TRAIT of 70 is average, and you're doing 49 points of damage on
average). While I agree that an M-16 can be a deadly weapon, I
think this is a bit too much! A shot in each shin can easily kill a
man! Are you conver^ng this from another gaming system (I recall
someone menôning 3Gs recently, but it might not have even been
this discussion). If so, you've got to remember that the Hit
Locaôn system in Mythus changes the average damage that a weapon
can met out. For contrast, if you don't use the Hit Locaôn system,
a long sword averages a minimum of 17 points of damage (average of
4D6 plus bonuses from the minimum PMPow needed to use the weapon),
which is 20% of an average farmer's Physical TRAIT. If you do use
the Hit Locaôn system, this minimum average jumps up to 29.75,
which is 42.5% of an average farmer's Physical TRAIT (which, by the
way, is higher than a more sedentary character, like Lintelmore the
Innkeeper on p. 321, who would have lost 59.5% of his Physical TRAIT
to an average longsword akack). That may be only one possiblity of
how you got such high numbers. Firearms didn't replace other
missile weapons because of their damaging power, but because of
their penetra^ve power and increased range. Both of these factors
are things already in place in Mythus, and would be easy to use for
rearms in Mythus.
Also, the suggesôn of using an exposure role is a good
one, I think. I'd like to add on to that that there's no rule that
says all weapon damage must be in d6s, to my knowledge. I think
they were appropriately used in the Mythus book to simulate the
damage various weapons could use, but there's nothing to say that
weapons that have a longer range of possible damage on each side of
their average couldn't be used for weapons that do have some^mes
seemingly random eects on people (where one tenth of a
centemeter's dierence can make the dierence between a bullet
glancing o a bone and that bullet piercing your heart!).

> And actually I think all armor should be subtracted from damage dealt
> *before* the mul^plier due to locaôn is applied. Eg. I have a breast
> plate which protects me from 20 points of damage and Bob the archer res
> an arrow from his long bow at my heart and rolls 23 points of damage
> (very high, by the way), rst 20 points are subtracted and then the
> remaining 3 are mul^plied by 4 (Ultra-Vital locaôn) for a total damage
> of 12. Unfortunately the hit locaôn system is too vague to really
> allow this. Hmm that could be another project....

Why would you want to do this? I'm not trying to be
faceôus, I'm genuinely puzzled.

> I think Jens-Arthur Leirback's (sp?) example demonstrated the
> superheroics just ne.

Actually, I was trying to avoid responding to his post,
because my remarks would have been less than complimentary. Let me
just say that his is _not_ the standard game, and the GM apparently
lets them get away with a lot not supported by the rules (or they've
been playing the same characters since the game rst hit the
shelves...a BAC over 100 is superheroic, even by Mythus
standards!). I'm not saying that this is something that is not fun
for some, but it is something not generally supported by the rules
as an 'average' game.
If I'm thinking of the wrong post, please correct me (and
send me a copy, so I know what I'm up against :) ).

Lucifer >:}

=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 17:34:54 EST
Subject: Even more on Mythus

Wow. Some important points have been raised about the
Lazarus Project, which I'll try to answer each in turn. It's a long
ride, so hang on!


>> Which is stabbing them in the back more, leing Mythus die
>>a whimpering death=20
>(interes^ng-I thought it had been in Licheform for quite a while now, quite
>past death)

A Lich, regardless of it's power, is likle more than a
shadow of what it was in its former life, which is what Mythus has
become. We've got very likle in the way of professional writers on
the internet interested in Mythus, and those that are around are
probably too busy trying to make money on their own projects to
write new stu for Mythus. And just having 120 or so people on the
net who are receiving this trickle of ideas and informaôn doesn't
cons^tute Licheform, in my opinion. It's my opinion that we need
to get Mythus back in the hands of the public, and recruit new
players en masse.

>>or celebra^ng the game system by proving to TSR
>>and the whole world what a fantas^c system it is?
>
>I thought I made this clear already.
>
>
>This is a private correspondence I had with Sean, which ended a few weeks
>ago. I think you will nd answers to some of the quesôns you posed me.
>The lines immediately below were his nal words.
>
>Return-Path: TSRInc@aol.com
>From: TSRInc@aol.com
>Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 11:20:37 -0500
>To: calvert@ucla.edu
>Subject: Fwd: Re: TSR/DJ
>
>Perhaps you'd like to send this to the en^re list? About two=20
>messages ago, you replied privately to me, and so I replied
>privately back to you.
>->Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
>TSRinc@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | hkp://users.aol.com/tsrinc/

Well, did you post it to whatever list this discussion
started on?

>-------------------->Forwarded message:
>From: calvert@ucla.edu (Chris Calvert)
>To: TSRInc@aol.com
>Date: 96-02-15 02:02:07 EST
>
>At 02:17 PM 2/12/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>> Look, you are ignoring something here.
>>> T$R aggressively pursued DJ.
>>> The writers didn't say, "Hmmm, let's bring this to T$R and see
>>>what
>>> they think". Gary and Co fought tooth and nail for a year and half to
>>> retain possession of their game...
>> =20
>> But it wasn't "their game." Gary had a contract which said that any
>>work done on company equipment belonged to the company, and there was
>>evidence that he had done so.
>
>What evidence?

Not only do they have no reason to give you this
informaôn, but could be libel for it if Gygax decided to sue them
for slander. Come on, let's get reasonable here.

>>Thus, DJ already belonged to TSR.
>
> So you are saying Gary and Dave wrote the en^re game(before Gary
>and Dave met), then Gary lev T$R with Frank Mentzer and I forget the other
>person, wrote and released Cyborg Commando, waited six years, then released
>Mythus.
>
> I am aware that this was the grounds upon which the suit was led,
>and I am aware that T$R won by PAYMENT.
>
> If it was stolen from T$R, why haven't I seen anything in Mythus
>that vaguely resembles anything T$R has released?

Because they've chosen not to publish Mythus-related stu,
thus far, doesn't mean that they can't own something, or am I
misinterpre^ng your statements here?
To my knowledge, they never claimed that Gary wrote the
en^re game at TSR before he lev, but that work was begun at TSR
before he lev. Even if Gygax only had one mee^ng among a couple
of company employees on company ^me, this would fall under the
grounds of being libel for suit if he decided later to publish ideas
resultant from that mee^ng under a dierent company. (I lev Dave
out of this because, even if it was only published as Mythus, the DJ
system and, thus Mythus, could be considered TSR property if work on
Unhallowed, the genre originally planned for publicaôn before
Mythus, started at TSR...Dave's involvement, to my understand, came
rela^vely late in the creaôn of DJ).
TSR did win through seklement, in which they paid Gygax, et
al. a sum of money. That doesn't mean that either side was found
guilty or innocent or what have you, merely that they came to a
decision outside of court, probably at GDW's request, because they
simply couldn't aord to ght the long ght. Fact of the maker
is, if we're to be raônal about this, WE DON'T KNOW WHO WAS RIGHT
OR WRONG (not yelling, stressing :) ). I'm not saying that Gygax
has lied to us, but both parês (TSR and Gygax) have dierent and
conic^ng stories as to what happened, and both parês have a
vested interest in defending their side of things. We got a great
deal of informaôn on what was going on from Gygax's side from
various sources on the net (most reliable, but some not), and almost
no informaôn from TSR on the topic. That doesn't mean TSR is
trying to hide something or that they're somehow 'wrong', it means
they're covering their corporate posteriors against a slander suit.
It is a choice I feel they have the right to, and should not be
penalized for.

>>> They obviously didn't try very hard to make it work, so they
>>>weren't
>>> interested in its future.
>>> How can anyone look at this and see this as anything but an
>>>akempt
>>> to destroy this great game or as a vendeka?
>>> Why else go to such lengths for a game that is so radically
>>> dierent, (violates no copyright laws)?
>>
>> TSR wanted _its_ property back.
>
> I would certainly want my property if it was taken from me.
>Unfortunately T$R cannot prove that DJ was its property. It had to pay to
>get rights to the material, which T$R if *owned* DJ, it never would have had
>to. If the proof convinced the judge, (which T$R had one and a half years to
>do) (s)he would have simply awarded DJ to T$R. This simple fact proves that
>T$R never owned it to begin with.

Don't be ridiculous! The seklement was reached, to my
understanding, at the request of GDW's side of things, not at TSR's
request. GDW couldn't aord to con^nue the conict, and Gygax
certainly couldn't aord to do it on his own (not making any
statements on Gygax's nancial situaôn, but on the high
probability that he would have an economically tough ^me gh^ng a
legal bakle with a corporaôn like TSR). The trial never reached
it's compleôn, a judge never decided in either company's favor.
To suggest that TSR should have been able to have a decision handed
down in a shorter ^me than one and a half years if they were right,
is likle more than ludicrous (you've obviously never been in a suit
involving teams of lawyers). I imagine a judge in your hypothe^cal
situaôn saying "I don't have enough informaôn for you to
convince me, keep trying, TSR". That simply doesn't happen (un^l
you go into appeals, which, to my knowlede, didn't in this case).
TSR had to prove it's case, and GDW did as well, and those sorts of
things take a LONG ^me to work out and perform. I don't know the
intricacies of what happened in the case, and I'm going to guess you
don't have those facts, either (though I could, of course, be wrong
in that guess).
Your statement 'TSR cannot prove that DJ was its property'
is based, I think, on a false premise, and op^mis^c view of how
quickly the American civil jus^ce system works.

>>TSR's copyrights were violated the moment those les (or printouts) lev
>>the building and were shown to someone else.
>
>I am interested in seeing one shred of *proof* that this is what actually
>happened. Saying something one thousand ^mes doen't make it even slightly
>true without proof. With proof, nothing need be said.

How much data would sa^sfy you? He's already stated that,
according to his informaôn, les containing DJ-related material
were removed from TSR and shown to others. That's enough right
there for a suit, if someone wanted to press it. I'm personally
uncertain what you're looking for.

>The lawsuit led alleged that DJ was a deriva^ve product of AD&D, NOT that
>Gary and company *stole* T$R property-which is the line constantly
>trumpeted. (I have this directly from him, and I am quite sure he knows
>what he was being charged with).

I'd be interested in TSR's perspec^ve on this, myself.

>BTW The rules for DJ were wriken for the Changeling system, which has
>nothing to do with fantasy(EX the magic/special powers rules being vril
>based, not heka based)much less AD&D. The Changeling rules were then
>*converted* over to Mythus
>rules(or so I have gathered indirectly, this might be in error, but I don't
>think so)

Actually, it was Unhallowed, to my understanding, but the
genre is irrelevant. If you create a sci rpg based on AD&D
rules, for example, you'd be in big trouble. If you create a
fantasy game based on that sci 's core rules, you're in big
trouble. If you do _any_ work on that sci game at another
company, then publish a fantasy game based on those rules, you're in
big trouble. I'm not saying any of the above occured, because I
can't, but neither can I say that they didn't. I don't know the
people involved, I don't know the circumstances involved, and I'm
not prepared to make a judgement based on one side of an argument.

<humorous monster deleted for the sake of space...go back
and read the logs! ;) >


>Chris,
>
>Please post to the list for me:
>
>Thanks for the manic post. You almost sounded like me there for a
>minute. :) If more people realized the way Mythus was buried, they
>wouldn't suck up to the great and powerful Oz in hopes that reason
>would prevail and the game would be resurrected. It won't be; sure
>they will take fundamental parts out of it and use it in the EGS,
>but Mythus is dead as a published system.
>
>And if anyone ever wanted to entertain the idea that this whole
>thing was not personal, I can dispel that right now. (Listen up,
>kids) TSR's destrucôn of Mythus was, ul^mately, personal. I'm not
>going to get into all the reasons why, but let's just say that there
>is a certain person at TSR with way more clout than she should have
>who hates Gary.
>
>Chris is right, and despite the fact that I'd LOVE to take TSR's
>cash to work on DJ again, IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. Case closed.
>
>I haven't bought anything from those bastards since they started the
>process of burying DJ. Remember, it wasn't just a game that I loved
>playing; It was my break into this industry. And I take shit like
>that personally. With the specic people involved. Unfortunately,

>that tends to reect on my dealings with the en^re company.
>
>Thanks, Chris, for reminding me that there are principles involved.
>As for everyone who would deal with TSR, there are two ways to
>negoâte with people like that: On your feet or on your knees. And
>yes, it *is* your choice.

Was this message from Dave Newton? It seems so, but I'm
uncertain (I may have accidentally deleted that informaôn while I
was preparing to reply to this, if so, it was accidental, please set
me straight).
The main problem I have with the logic above is that TSR is
not a single individual, it is a corporaôn, composed of many
dierent individuals, many of which are gamers, who, most probably,
weren't involved with the suit. If we can convince those people
that Mythus is worthwhile, we'll have a good chance of geing it
back out there, in the public's hands, and there's no reason Dave
shouldn't be involved (even those most fana^cal about conspiracy
theories haven't suggested that TSR was out to get Dave, too).
As to principles, we do have a choice. To either stand up
and show them the gem they've got, or wallow in our self-pity and
self-righteousness and cynicism. Yes, the suit is over, TSR now
owns the rights to Mythus and DJ, and chances are highest that Gygax
would never write a pen and paper rpg again, much less for TSR.
That doesn't mean it is ^me to stop gh^ng for the survival, no,
for a quality life, for Mythus!
(I apologize if I seemed personally accusatory or even
enammatory there...I can get a bit emoônal about things at ^mes,
though I do try to keep my emoôns from geing the best of me).

From: Christopher Stainton <StaintonC@aol.com>

>>Finally, prac^cal problem:
>>
>> Reac^va^ng Mythus would require bases of support larger than that
>>for systems such as Al-Quadim, Greyhawk, and other discon^nued T$R lines.

No, we'd have to show how the base of support for Mythus
never really existed, and show how much we individually love the
game. Besides, TSR realizes that, when it publishes a new world, it
will most likely begin to falter and lose sales within a two year
period or so, such is what happened to Al-Quadim. Greyhawk, I'll
akend to in a moment...

>> Greyhawk-which EVERYBODY knew and REALLY WANTED was buried by T$R
>>aver Gygax lev, to erase his presence.

Um, as much as I love Greyhawk, I can remember how poorly

Greyhawk was selling in comparison to the Forgoken Realms when FR
rst came out. The main problem is that Greyhawk had about one
boxed set as source material and a great number of good modules that
could be easily converted for use in other game worlds. FR had
detailed descripôns and campaign supplements that made it easy to
pick up and play, so they sold well. The methods used to premote
the campaign worlds were dierent, and the one used for FR was more
successful, so, instead of having two fairly similar fantasy worlds
coexist, they chose to remain with the one that had become more
successful.
Many people seem to be forgeing that, while FR hit the shelves in
1987 and Gygax ocially lev TSR in October of 1986, Ed
Greenwood's wri^ngs on that world existed long, long before that,
and stretch almost as far back as Dragon magazine itself. When FR
was published, it already had a fan base with which to be
successful. Also, if memory serves, Gygax had complete editorial
and ar^s^c control over Greyhawk, which limits the amount of
material one can publish for a game world. Greenwood did not (or
could not) exert the same control, and, thus, they could publish a
higher volume (and, iniâlly, without sacricing quality).
One thing I am highly curious about is exactly when the bad
blood between Gygax and TSR arose in its legal form. In June of
1987, Gygax reported in his last ar^cle to grace the pages of
Dragon that he was going to be publishing as Chairman of the Board
of a new rpg publishing company, New Inniês Producôns, and had
that 'TSR has been good enough to allow me to con^nue to write...'
the Gord the Rogue novels. It seems that, at this point, relaôns
were cordial, at least (though, probably by no means friendly). I'm
interested in when Gygax was forced not to publish an rpg for x
number of years, and what happened with that. It's likely we'll
never know the answer, but it is s^ll a curiosity.

>> How can you guys be so deluded to think these people really want
>>anything Gygax does to be produced.

How can you guys be so deluded to think that they won't
listen to reason. Have you checked out some of their current
products? They've been listening to their consumers. Now is our
chance!

>> Why do you guys think T$R won't rerelease the classic module series
>>of Gygax's day, in spite of the fact that it would be extremely successful?

Would they? Doubul. A great many people who purchase TSR
products want a great deal of plot, well, ploked out for them, and
less outright combat. The old modules, as wonderful as they were in
the right hands, didn't have a great deal of plot and did have a
great deal of outright combat, some^mes for tenuous reasons. Don't
get me wrong, I love these modules, and consider them classics, and
I believe they're more useful to me than those being published

today, but I also realize that many people out there need and want
things spelled out in detail for them, and couldn't or wouldn't
handle the 'lling in the blanks' necessary to make the old modules
good.
The only group a re-publicaôn would appeal to are the old
crowd, those of us who've been gaming since Gygax's ^me at TSR and
loved those modules the rst ^me around, or to those people who've
heard of these old modules from us old hats. If you showed Temple
of Elemental Evil to most people out there today, they'd ask some
very technical quesôns that the module doesn't really address,
like how are all these monsters fed, who puts traps like this in
their halls, why isn't the Temple defended from the complex above as
well as below, who on earth just leaves magic items on statues, etc.
A good GM can explain all those things, but many people believe the
module should make the akempt to do so. The old modules did not.

>> BECAUSE T$R HATES GYGAX!!!!

I think it's probably ^me that we stop personifying TSR.
Come on, TSR isn't a single individual, it cannot hate. Powerful
people within TSR might hate, but anyone interested in making money
will listen to something if they believed you. We can make that
happen.

>> Heeellllooooo!! Heeelllloooo?

And a good avernoon to you too.

>> Sean Reynolds handed you a pacier, and you guys are sucking away.

Um...I don't mean to con^nually poke holes in your logic,
but, eh, he got me going on this likle quest of mine. He's helped
s^r things up. Wouldn't it be much more pacifying if he merely
told me that Mythus had no chance, don't even bother? Now I'm gonna
cost TSR ^me and money by sending in lekers and trying to get
others to do the same. He didn't pacify me, if anything, he incited
me.
I'm not certain I like the accusaôn, either, but I'd
probably start geing dangerously close to aming if I akempt to
respond to the connotaôn of that remark, which is something I
don't liike indulging in. Let me just say that you don't know me,
man, so back o the personal comments.

>>You can call me a pessimist if you choose, I simply refuse to delude myself.

It is possible to be pessimis^c to the point of delusion, I
believe.

>>PS-Now, WHY does T$R hate Gygax?-that is the real quesôn. I suspect it
>>has something to do with the fact that Gygax's ex-wife owns a massive chunk
>>of the company, and the fact that his manner was not terribly popular with
>>his employees.

TSR is constantly changing. Yes, Loranne Williams is s^ll
preky much in control, to the best of my knowedge, but the list of
employees is constantly uctua^ng. I know of two people, one in
person, and one through the net, that have been hired to replace
people in the past three years, and that's just people I know.
They've recently completely reorganized their magazine stas, and very
possibly the rest of their organizaôn, as well (I've no facts on
this possibility, of course). They're simply not the same people
that they were when Gygax lev.

>I don't think people understand the word "loyalty"
>Or if they understand it's meaning, they don't grasp the concept.
> T$R obviously doesn't

I agree. I happen to be loyal to what Gygax created, which
is why I want to see its resurrecôn occur. Others happen to be
loyal to Gygax himself, which is their choice, but I'm not that big
on computer rpg games, so it's likely that I won't be suppor^ng his
products.

From: Christopher Stainton <StaintonC@aol.com>

>> T$R has already destroyed it. Mythus without Gygax and Newton is
>>not Mythus, but a chimeric abominaôn and insult to and perversion of the
>>original creaôn.

Cool. You're en^tled to your opinion, of course. I happen
to think that there are other people out there who can write games,
too (and there's nothing that says Newton won't be involved in
Mythus at TSR, either).

>> I personally am not worried about my gaming, I have the books, and
>>adapt rst Ed AD&D, some Pendragon and Tolkien stu, and everything works
>>well.

Again, good for you. I, unfortunately, don't have the
luxury of ^me or talent necessary to properly convert all of that
material into something I can use in a Mythus game. That's why I'm
trying to revive it.

>> BTW people, here's a trivia quesôn.
>> What formerly ac^vely published campaign world was lev to wither
>>on the vine, in spite of the fact that it was extremely successful and
>>popular?
>> Now then, who was its writer?

I addressed the problem with Greyhawk above, I just didn't
want to be accused of ignoring something. Exactly what is your
opinion of 'ac^vely published'. Just re-publishing a boxed set
over and over isn't exactly my idea of ac^ve publishing.

>> What honestly makes you guys think T$R even wants Mythus to work?

Because it can make them money, and any dollar sign in the
gleam of a corporate's eye will win out over peky vendekas
(assuming they exist) any day.

>> There is no f***ing way I ever buy Mythus from the company that
>>pursued and destroyed it out of malice.
>>
>> No f***ing way.

Cool, again, your opinion and right.

>> The ease with which you forget what kind of people you are dealing
>>with/talking about is surprising. Buying Mythus from these people would be
>>like

I haven't forgoken, but I'm also not willing to cry over
the proverbial spilt milk. The suit happened, for whatever reason,
and it's over now. It's ^me to move on, to provide Mythus with a
future.

>>I simply refuse to have anything to do with those, shall we call
>>them...people. Much less, want them to take take something I love, something
>>they akacked with the intent to destroy.
>>
>>If you want to approach those fuckers humbly, hat in hand, aver what they
>>fuckin did to us, that's your business, but you can bet I won't be with you.
>>
>>I don't need 'em, I FUCKING hate them, and I always will.<

Obviously, you're very emoônal about the topic, and,
unfortunately, I won't count on any possiblity of your assistance or
understanding (though I can always hope). Just please, don't
demonize and generalize and en^re group of people based on the
decisions of a few, that sort of thing has caused wars and hurt a
great many people. Also, TSR didn't do anything 'to us', we weren't
part of the equaôn. What happened was between TSR, GDW, and
Gygax. If you believe in the concept of corporate vendekas, which
many have chosen to place faith in, at the very least you must
understand they did not have a vendeka against you or me or even
thoe involved in the actual producôn of DJ, but against Gygax. If
anyone has grounds to claim 'aver what they did to me', it's him.
What they did to him had an aect on us, for certain, but that
doesn't mean that they 'hate' _us_.


'Dave-' 's post deleted for brevity.

> I have also boycoked all T$R products. They suck, and I refuse to
>nacially support a company that would seek and destroy a great RPG out of
>spite.

As for TSR products, there are some out there right now that
are of extremely high quality, in my opinion, but I guess describing
which ones would be a waste of bandwidth.

> I believe that this list does more for Mythus than any sort of
>puplishing company could. This list is a great, free, and intellegent
>source of ideas and material (like the Heka-Forging re-write, good job,
>BTW). I realize that not having Mythus on the market prevents most people
>from experiencing this RPG and I realive that many players do not have
>internet acsess. But, I feel that Mythus is going through an evoluôn that
>would only be possible because of this list and its members. I don't belive
>that Mythus is dead. It lives and improves every day.

Cool, your faith and opinion of the list is extremely high.
I do love this list, don't get me wrong, but very few of us are
professional writers, and the level of quality reveals that (I'm
including myself here, on this, I've wriken some sci stu for
Mythus that, in my opinion, is not of a quality that is
publishable). I can't get full adventure scenarios from the net
(okay, there's one out there, but it is amazingly small), I can't
get full blown campaign worlds from the net, I can't get supplements
to support the published campaign world. I can get some variant
rules, most of which are created to tailor Mythus to a specic
style of gaming, and I can get long discussions on people's opinions
of the rules (and some^mes, cold hard facts from Dave or Frank).
Not to menôn that any life Mythus has is restricted to the
internet, where a great deal of the gaming populaôn cannot access
it. This is what I mean by Mythus being dead.

Lucifer >:} *whew!*

=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:37:04 PST

Subject: Let me clear the air...

..then I think we might consider dropping the subject.

Dan wrote:
>I hate geing involved in these kind of temper tantrums, but didn't the
>leker you sent from Sean Renolds (The T$R "Online Rep") say they claimed
>it was wriken on T$R wordprocessors and thus their property? Which would
>make the "deriva^ve work" lawsuit absurd, but it is s^ll a copyright
>violaôn.

And Sean, to put it bluntly, is full of shit. The work on Mythus that was
not based upon Gygax and McCulley's work (core rules which were *heavily*
modied over the three years that Gary & I worked on it) were either of my
creaôn, or sent to me as notes which Gary and I eshed out.

As far as AErth, I had no hand in that sourcebook, and can say likle.

But the rest of the work was not in any way taken from stu Gary had
developed prior to '88.

>I'm sorry it all happened, and especially sorry that Dave's big break into
>the gaming industry was crushed over what was probably a personal vendeka,
>but shouldent he be glad that he got a break? That's more than I ever had.

And yes, I am proud to have goken my break from a guy who, IMNSHO, has a
hell of a lot more class and character than any of the assholes walking
through TSR's doors now.

Just a note on "geing a break": I busted my ass for that project, and
anyone who can work on a gaming project for three fucking years before it
sees the light of day can drink (and work) with me any^me. But anyone
who underes^mates the sheer amount of personal and professional sacrice
required to make it in this industry is probably not *going* to get a
break.

I never forgot that there are perhaps a thousand others out there, some
with perhaps more talent than I, who would have gladly stepped into my
shoes. Except for two things: I was lucky, and I was more than just a
likle determined to capitalize on what was -to me- the chance to work
with someone I had always admired and respected as the grand master of
roleplaying.

>Enough crying over spilt milk, you want to support the game? Then write
>some quality stu for it.

No. Suppor^ng the game at this point is ridiculous. It is dead. This

whole diatribe reminds me of a crowd of villagers surrounding the
corpse of Frankenstein's monster wishing it were s^ll alive because
it was the best monster they'd ever seen. and those of you who are
making clothes to t the beast are missing the point.

Make the clothes for yourselves. Remember what was given you, enjoy it,
but don't dream of the days that will never be. You are now faced with
the task of learning from the past... and building on it if you wish.

Just don't let the past blind you to your own future.

Dave
p.s. I'm sorry if the above sounded harsh. It's late, and this whole
thread is star^ng to piss me o a likle.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 00:09:23 -0500

> > And actually I think all armor should be subtracted from damage dealt
> > *before* the mul^plier due to locaôn is applied. Eg. I have a breast
> > plate which protects me from 20 points of damage and Bob the archer res
> > an arrow from his long bow at my heart and rolls 23 points of damage
> > (very high, by the way), rst 20 points are subtracted and then the
> > remaining 3 are mul^plied by 4 (Ultra-Vital locaôn) for a total damage
> > of 12. Unfortunately the hit locaôn system is too vague to really
> > allow this. Hmm that could be another project....
>
> Why would you want to do this? I'm not trying to be
> faceôus, I'm genuinely puzzled.

If we're talking rules here, cool. One thing to remember with the
example above: the Long Bow would negate a lot of that armor. Like, all
of it at anywhere near close range...

Boy, I'd really like to talk the game, and give up the crap...

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 10:52:45 +0100

Subject: Damage...

To my knowledge, guns don't actually do *that* much more damage than
melee weapons, it's just the type of damage that varies.
Essenâlly, the advantage of guns is that you have a lot of portable
killing power in something that can be hidden in jackets (unless your
a *Highlander* fan that is ;-). Ries are, essenâlly, more
accurate pistols (didn't I read somewhere that the 29cm-barelled
Magnum .44 was used to hunt elephant or something?). Therefore, I
don't really see why there should be a damage of 10d6 between the
damage caused by a sword and that caused by an M16... I am missing
something?

As to the damage that a gun should cause, one has to reect the
*^ssue damage,* and not merely work o the concept that "guns
kill." There are reports from the American drug prevent/immigraôn
departments (read Challenger 76?) that show people surving massive
trauma to the body, while others have been killed from so-called
"minor" wounds. For example, an SL1A1 (predecessor of the Bri^sh
Armies SA85?) is somewhat similar in calibre to the M1A16 (?) and the
damage caused... he bullet, if it directly impacted on the bone,
could likely tear the arm o - even if the bullet missed and passed
nearby the target, ^ssue damage is likely to result. So then, why
would a M16 do something like 4-6d6 worth of damage, it's advantage
being range and rate of re? A three round burst at reasonable
range could potenâlly do some really nasty damage (63 on average?),
and the pesky gunman s^ll has 27-odd rounds lev in his cartridge.

So, to recap, the advantages of guns are:

* they are small
* the allow you to shoot things from a distance (always good ;-)
* certain guns allow a high volume of re that is not obtainable by
your average (cross)bowman
* they are not as messy as swords at range (you don't see all the
blood and guts)

You could probably think of many more reasons, but they are the ones
that spring to my mind.

Just a thought.

--MARK

Mark Trickek, Archaeology (Leicester University)

"Is that an African or European swallow?"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 08:14:10 -0600

Feb 25, 96 03:31:48 pm

Thus spake the Prince O. Darkness
> > Pause, while I look up that Appendix......
> >
> > The appendix basically says, bundle a bunch of K/S Areas and give them a
> > star^ng STEEP total of 248 or 252. Not much help, I could have guessed
> > that without any assistance from the author. Regardless, I am thinking
> > about making my own guidelines for designing Vocaôns.
>
> But your complaint was that the guidelines weren't there.

Those aren't guidelines in my opinion.

> > I liked Greyhawk a lot. I guess I just don't like what he did for the
> > seing. Again, personal taste.
>
> The thing I didn't like about AErth is that, while it was
> obviously high fantasy, there seemed to be a derth of unusual races
> running about. I mean, it was menôned a few ^mes that they were
> there, but that all the weirdo races were either from Pharee or
> underground somewhere. Tres boring, to me.

Agreed. I started to come up with my own version of a fantasy version of
earth, of course I chose dierent cultures and naôns than in AErth. I
especially don't like Atlantl, Lemuria, Mu, and Lyonesse(?). Another
really good, though very dierent fantasy earth seing is The Lexicon or
something that went along with The Arcanum (by Bard Games?).

> A moment. You're saying that, if one bullet from an M-16
> hits a person in the shin or hand or some other Non-Vital area, it
> will average 70% of the total damage they could take (if a Physical
> TRAIT of 70 is average, and you're doing 49 points of damage on
> average). While I agree that an M-16 can be a deadly weapon, I
> think this is a bit too much! A shot in each shin can easily kill a
> man!

Unfortunately, I have to. Are you going to tell me that repeated hits
to the shin, hands, feet and other non-vital locaôns are going to kill
someone? Basically the Mythus damage system is what 3G3 calls "illogical",
or it could be so complex that I have not gured out the reasoning behind
it yet. When I calculated the amount of damage a bullet does the original
numbers I provided assumed average damage and hit locaôn (a 1.75 mul^plier),
using maximum damage and hit locaôn (a 4 mul^plier) you get an M-16 doing
6d6 (actually 5.7d6), which is certainly more reasonable, and I like it
a lot beker. Then the problem you encounter is if you akempt to use this
conversion to convert a Long Sword over to check how the conversion compares
(to check your work) a Long Sword ends up doing 2d6 damage, which does not
match. Which leaves you in a quandry, do you down size the damage from guns
so that they are comprable with the melee weapons or do you leave it alone
and roll 11d6 for an M-16 and get people dying from hand hits? Neither one
is a good soluôn.

> Firearms didn't replace other
> missile weapons because of their damaging power, but because of
> their penetra^ve power and increased range. Both of these factors
> are things already in place in Mythus, and would be easy to use for
> rearms in Mythus.

Isn't penetra^ve power and damaging power the same or almost the same thing?

> Also, the suggesôn of using an exposure role is a good
> one, I think.

I will be using exposure rolls for things like shotguns, shrapnel, and
explosions.

> > And actually I think all armor should be subtracted from damage dealt
> > *before* the mul^plier due to locaôn is applied. Eg. I have a breast
> > plate which protects me from 20 points of damage and Bob the archer res
> > an arrow from his long bow at my heart and rolls 23 points of damage
> > (very high, by the way), rst 20 points are subtracted and then the
> > remaining 3 are mul^plied by 4 (Ultra-Vital locaôn) for a total damage
> > of 12. Unfortunately the hit locaôn system is too vague to really
> > allow this. Hmm that could be another project....
>
> Why would you want to do this? I'm not trying to be
> faceôus, I'm genuinely puzzled.

Because it is only the part of the akack that actually hits the esh of
the target that hurt or aects more when it strikes a vital locaôn. And
to respond to all of the people that pointed out that the Long Bow would
eliminate all or most of the armor in my example: I know that, I was just
simpling things. I don't par^cularly want to expand the hit locaôn
system, which I would have to do to really do this right.

> > I think Jens-Arthur Leirback's (sp?) example demonstrated the
> > superheroics just ne.
>
> Actually, I was trying to avoid responding to his post,
> because my remarks would have been less than complimentary. Let me
> just say that his is _not_ the standard game, and the GM apparently
> lets them get away with a lot not supported by the rules (or they've
> been playing the same characters since the game rst hit the
> shelves...a BAC over 100 is superheroic, even by Mythus
> standards!). <snip>

> If I'm thinking of the wrong post, please correct me (and
> send me a copy, so I know what I'm up against :) ).

No, you recalled the right post.

Dan.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 10:25:37 EST
In-Reply-To: <m0tr3rq-000AFkC@Uucp1.mcs.net>; from "Dan T Williamson" at Feb
26, 96 8:14 am

> > But your complaint was that the guidelines weren't there.
>
> Those aren't guidelines in my opinion.

Ah. What sort of guidelines would you have prefered?

> > A moment. You're saying that, if one bullet from an M-16
> > hits a person in the shin or hand or some other Non-Vital area, it
> > will average 70% of the total damage they could take (if a Physical
> > TRAIT of 70 is average, and you're doing 49 points of damage on
> > average). While I agree that an M-16 can be a deadly weapon, I
> > think this is a bit too much! A shot in each shin can easily kill a
> > man!
>
> Unfortunately, I have to. Are you going to tell me that repeated hits
> to the shin, hands, feet and other non-vital locaôns are going to kill
> someone? Basically the Mythus damage system is what 3G3 calls "illogical",
> or it could be so complex that I have not gured out the reasoning behind
> it yet. When I calculated the amount of damage a bullet does the original
> numbers I provided assumed average damage and hit locaôn (a 1.75 mul^plier),
> using maximum damage and hit locaôn (a 4 mul^plier) you get an M-16 doing
> 6d6 (actually 5.7d6), which is certainly more reasonable, and I like it
> a lot beker. Then the problem you encounter is if you akempt to use this
> conversion to convert a Long Sword over to check how the conversion compares
> (to check your work) a Long Sword ends up doing 2d6 damage, which does not
> match. Which leaves you in a quandry, do you down size the damage from guns
> so that they are comprable with the melee weapons or do you leave it alone
> and roll 11d6 for an M-16 and get people dying from hand hits? Neither one
> is a good soluôn.

I think the problem here is the akempt to convert from one
game to another (though I do realize 3G3 was wriken to be converted
to mul^ple systems, we've obviously got a problem with the
conversion). I'm going to see if I can use some of the other
books I've got to create a workable system (I may be proven wrong in

the process, and I'll report that too, if it happens). I DO think
that if you receive mul^ple shots to the hands and feet you will
die, I just don't think it'd take two bullets. :)

> > Firearms didn't replace other
> > missile weapons because of their damaging power, but because of
> > their penetra^ve power and increased range. Both of these factors
> > are things already in place in Mythus, and would be easy to use for
> > rearms in Mythus.
>
> Isn't penetra^ve power and damaging power the same or almost the same thing?

Sort of, but not really. If you have a weapon that has a high
penetra^ve power vs. esh, it will actually do less damage in most
hit locaôns, because you'll have that "blowthrough" aect (a good
thing anywhere except a bone or internal organ). If you have a
weapon that has a high penetra^ve value vs. armor ("Copstoppers"
and their ilk), you've got something that will probably do a great
deal of damage to the person, as well, but not necessarily. If you
have a bullet with a sov ^p, penetraôn is very, very low (most
modern "armor" will stop it), but the resultant damage, if it hits
esh, is higher.
The problem we're encountering, I think, is that even a
medieval crossbow bolt cannot compare easily to a bullet, and does
not need all the akributes that a bullet needs to properly simulate
it (and there'd be no reason to include it in a game that doesn't
have rearms).

> > Why would you want to do this? I'm not trying to be
> > faceôus, I'm genuinely puzzled.
>
> Because it is only the part of the akack that actually hits the esh of
> the target that hurt or aects more when it strikes a vital locaôn. And
> to respond to all of the people that pointed out that the Long Bow would
> eliminate all or most of the armor in my example: I know that, I was just
> simpling things. I don't par^cularly want to expand the hit locaôn
> system, which I would have to do to really do this right.

I'm s^ll a bit confused, but I'll try to respond.
The problem we have here, I think, is that we disagree not how
much damage a weapon should do when it hits vital areas, but how
damage should be dealt with. If you were to switch the order in
which damage is dealt and armor protects, would you similarly scale
down the protecôn that a piece of armor gives Ultra, Super, and
Vital areas (by four, three and two, respec^vely, at least)?

> > If I'm thinking of the wrong post, please correct me (and
> > send me a copy, so I know what I'm up against :) ).
>
> No, you recalled the right post.

I hope you understand, then, that that was an abuse of the
system at worst, or an example of what happens when a game has been
going for a _long_ ^me at best, and not your average game?

Lucifer >:}

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 11:08:50 -0500


>> A moment. You're saying that, if one bullet from an M-16
>> hits a person in the shin or hand or some other Non-Vital area, it
>> will average 70% of the total damage they could take (if a Physical
>> TRAIT of 70 is average, and you're doing 49 points of damage on
>> average). While I agree that an M-16 can be a deadly weapon, I
>> think this is a bit too much! A shot in each shin can easily kill a
>> man!
>
>Unfortunately, I have to. Are you going to tell me that repeated hits
>to the shin, hands, feet and other non-vital locaôns are going to kill
>someone? Basically the Mythus damage system is what 3G3 calls "illogical",
>or it could be so complex that I have not gured out the reasoning behind
>it yet. When I calculated the amount of damage a bullet does the original
>numbers I provided assumed average damage and hit locaôn (a 1.75
>mul^plier),
>using maximum damage and hit locaôn (a 4 mul^plier) you get an M-16 doing
>6d6 (actually 5.7d6), which is certainly more reasonable, and I like it
>a lot beker. Then the problem you encounter is if you akempt to use this
>conversion to convert a Long Sword over to check how the conversion compares
>(to check your work) a Long Sword ends up doing 2d6 damage, which does not
>match. Which leaves you in a quandry, do you down size the damage from guns
>so that they are comprable with the melee weapons or do you leave it alone
>and roll 11d6 for an M-16 and get people dying from hand hits? Neither one
>is a good soluôn.
>
>

Acutally fellows,
The reason a round from an M-16 is so deadly is that once it enters the body,
it has a tendency to bounce around.....alot,
and it is possible to die from a shot in the hand, depending on what other
internal organs that bullet had destroyed. The other "bigger" rounds,
.45ACP, .44mag, etc., tend not to bounce, but just destroy whatever they
punch through.

IMHO, I think using that strike locaôn is a preky valid way to determine
if the gunshot wound you just received is a graze, or is lethal.

Good Gaming,
Chris Stainton,
Formerly 82nd Airbone Division, US Army
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 17:23:21 +0100
Subject: Re: How do I get in..?

At 18:57 22-02-96 -0500, you wrote:
>Im new and really interested in this thing so can somebody show me the
>light...?
>
>--Derek Winter
>

You can "nd the switch" by geing a list of the available archive
les by sending an "INDEX MYTHUS-L" command to
LISTSERV@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (or LISTSERV@BROWNVM.BITNET). You can then
order these les with a "GET MYTHUS-L LOGxxxx" command, or using
LISTSERV's database search faciliês. Send an "INFO DATABASE" command
for more informaôn on the laker.

Harold Stringer
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 11:08:06 -0600
Feb 26, 96 10:25:37 am

> > > But your complaint was that the guidelines weren't there.
> >
> > Those aren't guidelines in my opinion.
>
> Ah. What sort of guidelines would you have prefered?

Something with more meat to it. Clearly the Vocaôns in the book are not
all built around 248 or 252 points of star^ng STEEP (Poet I think has
something like 276 points - from memory, don't quote me :). Apparently
there is some kind of "weight" assigned to dierent levels and K/S
Areas. It is that kind of informaôn - what K/S Areas were given what
weight when the sample Vocaôns were made, so that when I make my
Vocaôns they will be compa^ble with them - not over powere, not
under powered.

> I think the problem here is the akempt to convert from one
> game to another (though I do realize 3G3 was wriken to be converted
> to mul^ple systems, we've obviously got a problem with the
> conversion).

There are problems with any conversion, I am trying my best. See what
you can do and what assumpôns you used, I'd be happy to see them.
Currently I think I will be using 12% of DV as the number of D6 damage
the gun causes, and some kind of armor reducôn system like the long
bow and crossbows have.

> > Isn't penetra^ve power and damaging power the same or almost the same thing?
>
> Sort of, but not really. If you have a weapon that has a high
> penetra^ve power vs. esh, it will actually do less damage in most
> hit locaôns, because you'll have that "blowthrough" aect (a good
> thing anywhere except a bone or internal organ). If you have a
> weapon that has a high penetra^ve value vs. armor ("Copstoppers"
> and their ilk), you've got something that will probably do a great
> deal of damage to the person, as well, but not necessarily. If you
> have a bullet with a sov ^p, penetraôn is very, very low (most
> modern "armor" will stop it), but the resultant damage, if it hits
> esh, is higher.

I'm aware of this, so I have been using "standard" amuniôn in my damage
calculaôns. There are modicaôns for AP and Dum-Dum (sov) bullets.

> The problem we have here, I think, is that we disagree not how
> much damage a weapon should do when it hits vital areas, but how
> damage should be dealt with. If you were to switch the order in
> which damage is dealt and armor protects, would you similarly scale
> down the protecôn that a piece of armor gives Ultra, Super, and
> Vital areas (by four, three and two, respec^vely, at least)?

No, my theory is why does the armor protect less against a vital hit, the
armor is not more vulnerable? So there should only be one armor value
for all hit locaôns (UVSN), which is applied before the damage is dealt
to the target and mul^plied by locaôn. But like I've been saying that
is kind of dicult without a more detailed hit locaôn system, so I
probably wont do this.

> I hope you understand, then, that that was an abuse of the
> system at worst, or an example of what happens when a game has been
> going for a _long_ ^me at best, and not your average game?

Oh, yes. Which is why I tried to keep my comments to a minimum as well. :)

Dan.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 12:55:56 EST
In-Reply-To: <m0tr6TJ-000AF7C@Uucp1.mcs.net>; from "Dan T Williamson" at Feb
26, 96 11:08 am

> > Ah. What sort of guidelines would you have prefered?
>
> Something with more meat to it. Clearly the Vocaôns in the book are not
> all built around 248 or 252 points of star^ng STEEP (Poet I think has
> something like 276 points - from memory, don't quote me :). Apparently
> there is some kind of "weight" assigned to dierent levels and K/S
> Areas. It is that kind of informaôn - what K/S Areas were given what
> weight when the sample Vocaôns were made, so that when I make my
> Vocaôns they will be compa^ble with them - not over powere, not
> under powered.

I now understand. I just used the numbers that they gave
for each vocaôn as a model for my own creaôns. I've got the
sincere feeling that they created the system for crea^ng your own
Vocaôns aver they built the Vocaôns, so the standard Vocaôns
would likely break any rules they tried to set up. I think the main
thing they were trying to get across is that it's preky much up to
the JM, but that's not much help either, is it? :)

> > The problem we have here, I think, is that we disagree not how
> > much damage a weapon should do when it hits vital areas, but how
> > damage should be dealt with. If you were to switch the order in
> > which damage is dealt and armor protects, would you similarly scale
> > down the protecôn that a piece of armor gives Ultra, Super, and
> > Vital areas (by four, three and two, respec^vely, at least)?
>
> No, my theory is why does the armor protect less against a vital hit, the
> armor is not more vulnerable? So there should only be one armor value
> for all hit locaôns (UVSN), which is applied before the damage is dealt
> to the target and mul^plied by locaôn. But like I've been saying that
> is kind of dicult without a more detailed hit locaôn system, so I

> probably wont do this.

Two reasons I believe it protects less in more vital areas:
1) Most armor does not protect evenly, while a coif protects
the throat, ears and skull, it does not protect the eyes and face.
Thus, it protects only Ultra Vital and Non Vital areas (Ultra Vital
being the center of the throat and well placed blows to the skull,
Non Vital being such structures as the ears, sides of the throat,
and poorly placed blows to the skull).
2) The damage that gets through is more serious and
dangerous to the wearer. A knife prick through a leather jacket, for
example, will just cause a likle scab on the hand, but the same
prick, at the same depth through a leather collar could result in
the person's death, if it hit the jugular vein (an Ultra Vital
area). Thus, the armor protects evenly, but the damage done once it
gets through is very dierent, much more dierent, I think, than
your suggesôn allows.
Of course, if you are trying to simplify the combat system
by reducing the amount of numbers you have to deal with, that's a
noble quest, but not necessarily a fault of the reality of the
system.

Lucifer >:}

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 18:05:50 +0100
Subject: Re: Damage

I don't suppose that formula you have got comes from something like
*Edge of the Sword: Volume 1* does it? If not, then I think that is
worth having a look at.

> ...how you dene damage... <

Actually I thought how big a hole it lev in the person. Sort of the
dierent between, say, armour piercing bullets and so-called
"dum-dum" bullets. One lev a nice likle neat hole but when
straight through you, and the other lev a messy big hole through
which you could probably put your hand.

> Actually rifes are more accurate, highly powered pistols. <

Hmmm... I'm not saying your wrong, but where do you get your gures
from. I'm always interested in more informaôn to store in my head
;-)

If you have a look at that Edge of the Sword book, it shows a Desert
Eagle having a damage of "4.62" (ish), and ries having lower
values. Well, the WA2000 had something int he realm of "5.65" but it
is a dedicated sniper rie.

Just a thought.

> Hydrosta^c shock <

I always thought that this was more to do with shock (combined with
bloodloss). A bullet hiing the bone in your forearm - if it
doesn't bounce of, that is (and I don't know the sta^s^cal
liklihood of this) - is going to separate them. Point taken about
the "bow wave" in reference to near misses, though.

> [size of guns] <

Hmm... consider a M16 - okay, it's about 70-80cm long (?) much the
same as a bow but it's ammuniôn sure comes in smaller packages ;-)
Last ^me I looked, you're average autloader handgun had the size
advantage on a short sword, let alone long sword. :-)

> Greek phalanx versus the Roman Legion <

Hmm... I shall have to look that up in the library.

Anyway, thanks for listening to the rant.

--MARK


=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 18:07:29 +0100
Subject: Hit Locaôn

I don't suppose anyone has come up with a detailed Hit Locaôn Chart
for Mythus have they? I created one myself based upon the size of
various bits of the body, armour coverage and what *I* considered to
be more vital than others. Nice, but I'm sure someone else could
come up with something beker. Any oers?

--MARK


=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 14:00:26 -0500
Subject: Mythucal Bullets

Not that I want to con^nue this thread, but how about just doing this: make
a bullet hit require a roll vs. PN at a DR based on the caliber. Failure
equals immediate shock REGARDLESS of the amount of damage done. Untreated
shock can kill an HP eventually, so you can s^ll have a .22 kill someone (as
happens all the ^me in real life unfortunately) yet not do whopping amounts
of ^ssue damage. Hydrosta^c shock is possible from bullets wounds; in
fact, there is a certain type of handgun ammo that is designed to induce it.
The manufacturer claims that hydrosta^c shock can inded kill someone, even
from a hand/foot hit.

However, that is not something I want to dwell on. I'd rather discuss ideas,
^ps, creaôns, etc. for Mythus itself. If the gods don't strike me down,
I'll nsih up my long-languishing "Astrology in Mythus" ar^cle and post it
this week.

Good Hun^ng!

DOn
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 19:07:00 +0100
Subject: Someone out there...

I don't suppose "Lee of Vincent" could send me the address... his email address didn't seem to exist on a reply.

Sorry for hogging up peoples' talk-space with a 'personal' message.

--MARK


=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 14:19:29 EST
Subject: Guns in DJ

I'm going to try to piece together a workable system for the
usage of modern rearms to Mythus. I'm using data available from
_The_Compendium_of_Contemporary_Weapons_ and _The_Compendium_of_
_Weapons,_Armour_and_Castles_, both published by Palladium.
I'll start by comparing Mythus and Palladium's treatment of
various medieval weapons, so we can nd a baseline. The average
damage dealt out in Mythus should be mul^plied by 1.75, to take
into account the Hit Locaôn system.
This informaôn is shown below:

Mythus Damage/ Palladium Dmg/
Weapon Dmg Avg Dmg Avg Raô
Crossbow 3D6/18.375 2D8/9 2.04167
Longbow 4D6/24.5 2D6/7 3.5
Longsword 4D6/24.5 2D6/7 3.5
Great Sword 6D6/36.75 3D6/10.5 3.5
Dagger 2D6/12.25 1D6/3.5 3.5
Halberd 5D6/30.625 4D6/14 2.8175

Obviously, conversion is not perfect, but the prevalent
raô seems to be 3.5. We can eec^vely ignore the Hit Locaôn
mul^plier without being erroneous, and reduce our raô to 2. Now,
if we use this raô to determine directly the power of rearms for
Mythus, we get some of the following problems:

Weapon Palladium damage/ Proj Mythus dmg/
avg dmg avg dmg
Colt .45 Pistol 4D6/14 8D6/28
.30 Browning M2 3D6/10.5 6D6/21
M16 3D6/10.5 6D6/21
.45 Thompson M1 4D6/14 8D6/28
.50 Cal Browning HMG 1D6x10+10/45 2D6x10+20/90

Okay, that's a bit unwieldly for some, but we are talking
about some preky major weapons here. Lets try using a die, similar
to one used in an Exposure role, to shave down the numbers. Doing
that, we get the following:

Weapon Mythus Dmg/avg dmg
Colt .45 Pistol 2D6/24.5
.30 Browning M2 1D6/12.25
M16 1D6/12.25
.45 Thompson M1 2D6/24.5
.50 Cal Browning HMG 7D6/85.75

Okay, now we've got less dice to roll, but more math to do
and less range to dierenâte between weapons (a weapon that does
2D6 by Palladium rules would do something like 1D3 * Exposure roll,
and a weapon that does 1D6 would be o the chart). That's what you
give up for simplicity, but it's s^ll not a real soluôn to the
problem.

The soluôn is to not use D6s, but to use the die most
oven used in a Mythus game: the D10. With use of D10s, you get the
following numbers:

Mythus damage/
avg dmg
Colt .45 Pistol 5D10/27.5
.30 Browning M2 4D10/22
M16 4D10/22
.45 Thompson M1 5D10/27.5
.50 Cal Browning HMG 16D10/88

Thus, we've got a workable system of damage, excep^ng the
HMG. This is easily alleviated by using a D6 roll as a mul^plier
(much like the Exposure roll, but there is not applicable damage to
others nearby) to the HMG's damage. Thus, we get:

.50 Cal Browning HMG 5D10*1D6/96.25

Of course, using a D10 means that there is a greater range
on how much damage a bullet will do, but I think this makes it even
more realis^c. One expert menôned that an M16 shot that was
iniâlly in a Non-Vital area could tumble around and hit vital
organs. Or, of course, it could just y right through the hand and
do likle damage.
Using this system, an M16 averages 38.5 points of damage,
which s^ll will kill an average farmer with two hits, but it also
gives him a greater chance to survive, with a minimum damage of only
4. Of course, there is an increase in the chance of being
slaughtered, with a maximum damage of 160, but that chance doesn't
subract from his chance of survival once you get past 70 points of
damage. Then again, a bullet to the skull or spine _should_ kill a
person.
I'm going to work on hashing out new rules, based on the
ones that were posted before, with these concepts in mind. Keep
watching.
Basically, my point is that the problem isn't with the
system, but with the assumpôn that the D6 was the only die that
should be used for damage and the fact that rules for rearms were
not included in the medieval fantasy supplement of the game.

Lucifer >:}

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 20:36:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Hit Locaôn
X-To: mat3@leicester.ac.uk

At 06:07 PM 2/26/96 +0100, Kage wrote:
>I don't suppose anyone has come up with a detailed Hit Locaôn Chart
>for Mythus have they? I created one myself based upon the size of
>various bits of the body, armour coverage and what *I* considered to
>be more vital than others. Nice, but I'm sure someone else could
>come up with something beker. Any oers?

My house rules include hit locaôns and catastrophic damage... see if you
can nd them from someone who grabbed my old post about them (I lost my
en^re HD contents a short while ago, and so my le is gone). I have an
old version on my mythus page, which is accessible from my homepage (address
below).

Take care,
Gary


=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 18:15:25 -0800
Subject: Re: Even more on Mythus

> Wow. Some important points have been raised about the
>Lazarus Project, which I'll try to answer each in turn. It's a long
>ride, so hang on!

Dude, believe what you want.

Mike

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 08:07:55 +0100
Subject: Hit Locaôn
In-Reply-To: <1EAB00E79AA@daisy.le.ac.uk>

I divided the body into 11 parts. Head, chest, abdomen, upper and lower
arm and leg. Each locaôn got a certain % of the total P-TRAIT, and a to-hit
% on a D%. I double the damage in head, chest and abdomen. I tried to
tripple the damage done to the head, but it proved to be to tough on the HP
(not to menôn the EP).
Well, it works for us.
PAW
wwww
(@ @)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (__) (__)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 16:50:38 -0600
Subject: Re: Guns in DJ
Feb 26, 96 02:19:29 pm

Lucifer,

It has been my experience that the Palladium system uses an illogical

progression of damage. Use it if you want, but I wont be. I will
probably go to using a d10 in my weapon system though. I like the
wider range of damage you get and the fact that it does not add any
new dice to the game (s^ll only d6 and d10).

Dan.

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 18:12:04 -0500
From: Derek Winter <Wintrewind@AOL.COM>
Subject: Wisconsin Locaôn..

Im looking for experienced players in Wisconsin, write me if you have any
informaôn...

Thanks.

Derek Winter
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 06:12:02 -0500
Subject: Fay (& I don't mean Resnick)

I have a couple interpretaôn quesôns about the Fay as listed in MMM #2.
This is the rst ^me I have read the stats in detail and when I began
crea^ng a Fay for use in a scenario I no^ced something: the K/S Areas are
listed as "Full Prac^ôner in one of the following Vocaônal combinaôns.
. . Dweomercraev (Green School)/Diviner/Wisewoman, Priestcraev
(Balance)/Astrologer/Healer, or Alchemist/Explorer/Sage." Does this mean a
given Fay has all the K/S Areas listed for the three given Vocaôns in a
group?

In the rst case (Green Mage, etc) I found this gives the Fay 47 K/S Areas
altogether plus Sub-Areas. Then, to gure out STEEPS, I needed to decide
what cons^tuted the primary, secondary, and terâry K/S Areas for each
Vocaôn. Using the base STEEPs as my guide, I came up with 15 areas that
start at 60+8d10 STEEP, 16 at 40+6d10 STEEP, and 16 at 20+4d10 STEEP. 13 of
the primary areas are Heka-genera^ng ones. I ended up with things like 100
STEEP in Dweomercraev, 104 in Apotropaism, 117 in Herbalism, and so forth.

Now, did I make the correct assumpôns here, or did I mistake something?
The reason I ask, and this is quesôn #2, is that I dropped my pen when I
went to gure out the Fay's Heka. It says the Heka is "equal to the total
of all three TRAITS, plus double Full Prac^ôner human norm for K/S Areas."
Assuming this means you calculate the K/S Heka as if this were a Full
Prac^ôner, double it, and add the three TRAITS, I ended up with a grand
total of over 12,000 Heka! Even if I only double the Full Prac^ôner areas
like Dweo/Magick and Priest/Religion and leave the other K/S Areas at normal
Heka, I s^ll end up with about 10,000 Heka, more than any other being in an
ocial DJ work (including Necropolis). And this was the rst Fay in a
band of six!

OK, opinions please, everyone (including Dave, if possible, since he wrote
the ar^cle in MMM #2). Did I:
1. Properly come up with the number of K/S Areas
2. Decide which and how many were primary, secondary, etc.
3. Calculate the Fay's Heka?

Any input is gratefully appreciated.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 11:44:28 -0500
Subject: Quesôns

I have a couple of quesôns:

-Did anyone get the excel macros to work? Where can I nd a copy of the
working macros? I'm just about to start a new campaign and I have the
feeling that these would save me a lot of ^me.

-This brings me to my second quesôn. I'm playing with the idea of
designing a predominatly feudal world and I was hoping that someone might be
able to help me get started. Any sugesôns? I'm mostly concerned with how
large a kingdom can grow before it becomes to dicult to govern and how
baronies and such where devided.

Thanks lots
Chris DIon
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 12:04:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Quesôns

> -This brings me to my second quesôn. I'm playing with the idea of
> designing a predominatly feudal world and I was hoping that someone might be
> able to help me get started. Any sugesôns? I'm mostly concerned with how
> large a kingdom can grow before it becomes to dicult to govern and how
> baronies and such where devided.
>

Not that this will do you any good in the near term, but I highly
recommended ARIA: Worlds for this sort of informaôn. This is
by far the best sourcebook for any aspect of society generaôn.

According to Last Unicorn Games, the makers of ARIA, the books
are being reprinted and should be available Real Soon Now (tm).

If you can nd this book, use it!

Larry
=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 10:44:36 -0800

I have a likle quesôn: Just what is so wrong with the hit locaôn system as
it stands? No big charts to look up, just a likle imaginaôn as to what
happened in the last CT. The foolish trend that I seem to nd with hit locaôn
charts is the uker unlikeliness of many of the hits. If Conan is taking a swing
at Merlin the Magician's head, why should a foot hit come of it? If fact, how
many people get hit in the foot in melee combat? As a fencer (epee for that
maker) I nd the foot to be the most untouched area of the body, certainly
less than a percent of the hits. Now this probably changes when you get to
missile weapons red from a good range....

And lets not forget how hit charts break down when it comes to monstrous
creatures and other non-human-sized/proporôned creatures...

I nd the generic system does everything for me other than tell me what armor
piece took a hit.

-zoltan
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 08:50:03 +0100

Subject: Growing interest in Mythus !

Did you no^ce that the list has now over 200 subscribers? And s^ll growing!

All these people are interested in a "dead" game!

>Your message has been successfully distributed to the MYTHUS-L list (201
>recipients).

Harold
_____________________________________________________________________

Work: Private:
1315 KT Almere Tel/Fax +31 - (0)36 53 64 798
The Netherlands
Tel +31 - (0)36 53 43 445
Fax +31 - (0)36 53 47 265


_____________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:29:26 +0100
From: "M.A.Trickek" <mat3@LEICESTER.AC.UK>

It's kinda strange how Aria gets referred to so oven, isn't it.
Mythus-L, the Aria PR group ;-) Seriesly, though, Aria would be an
easy way of crea^ng a feudal society. Also checking out any of the
books on medieval fuedalism, the development of it, and so forth,
would be good for background material, inspiraôn, and that sort of
thing. If you want, I could send the name of a few books to you.

--MARK


=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:49:33 MDT

From: Allowat Sakima <RWORCESTER@LAB1.NRIDGEHS.DAVIS.K12.UT.US>
Organizaôn: NORTHRIDGE HIGH SCHOOL
Subject: Re: Growing interest in Mythus !

> Did you no^ce that the list has now over 200 subscribers? And
s^ll growing! >
> All these people are interested in a "dead" game!
>
So what's so bad about this "DEAD" game? I am a new comer on this
but from what I've heard it is a cool game and I like it.

Allowat Sakima
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:26:21 +0100

Zoltan... it's just one of those things that I wouldn't have minded
puing into the system. I could take only so much of someone
geing "hit in the foot" when wearing super-duper armour because
that was the only logical place for them to get hit to do, say, a
Super-Vital hit. Brings back shades of RM where the only place you
ever hit was the darned leg ;-)

As to using hit locaôn charts for non-human/monstrous creatures...
surely, as you say, a likle imaginaôn would suce. Hmm... this
great big ying thing got hit to the arm - well, there goes his
wing.

Anyway, it's all a maker of choice really. Some people like hit
charts, others don't. Personally I prefer to have them and not use
them.

Cheers for listening to the rant...
--MARK


=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 16:50:54 -0500

Subject: Mythus Web Sites

As most of you know, I maintain a preky heavy-duty Mythus WWW site.
Well, I'm in the process of re-designing it (no, no, I'm not taking
informaôn away! On the contrary, I'm adding quite a bit), and so I am
solici^ng comments on beker ways of organizing the informaôn.

I might add that I am akemp^ng to get a complete and accurate list of
Web sites with any DJ and/or Mythus informaôn on them so I can list
them in a master 'site index' sort of le. If you have such a beast,
please let me know the URL and site ^tle, even if you know I already
have it :-)

Also, I have been unable to connect to 'Dekker's Mythus Site' and 'Jag's
Lair' in recent weeks, so I would appreciate updated URLs.

Thanks,

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 19:56:19 -5600
From: Raa Amon Zepol <xaemyl@NETCOM.COM>
Organizaôn: Wickednesse Incorporeal!
Subject: Re: Growing interest in Mythus !
In-Reply-To: <199602290750.AA04033@xs1.xs4all.nl> from "Harold Stringer,
Ridascreen-Biopharm B.V." at Feb 29, 96 08:50:03 am

> Did you no^ce that the list has now over 200 subscribers? And s^ll
> growing!
>
> All these people are interested in a "dead" game!

Because this "dead" game rules! :)

- /\__^__/\/\_____/\_______/\_ __ /\_^___/\__.
\ | /\____ \ ____/\ \/ \ \ | \_ |__ The End Complete
/ _ \/ _ \ _|___/ ___ \/ | / | \ Xaemyl est Sadistykl
/ \\ | \\ / | \\___ \ \\ Killing Vic^ms Found
\ __|__ /___|__ / ____\____|__ / _____/_______ \ Many More Must Suer
\/ \/ \/\/ \/\/ \/ Feel The Power of Pain
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 22:04:25 -0800

Subject: Re: Fay (& I don't mean Resnick)

At 06:12 AM 2/28/96 -0500, you wrote:
>I have a couple interpretaôn quesôns about the Fay as listed in MMM #2.
> This is the rst ^me I have read the stats in detail

I hate you.

;)

Mike

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 03:53:03 -0500
From: George Goins <Katsin@AOL.COM>
Subject: Teleport Formula

Quesôn: The General Dw. Grade VII Cas^ng Teleport Formula; is it a miss
print? In the second paragraph of the descripôn of the cas^ng it is
refered to as a Teleport Charm.

George
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 00:58:43 -0800
From: Keiko Shimozono <shimozon@SCS.UNR.EDU>
Subject: Phantasy Star

Hi, all,

Does anybody like Phantasy Star (Sega Genesis Game)?
I love those great games! I already tried Phantasy Star II, III, and IV,
and I am looking for Phantasy Star I, which I can't nd anywhere. :-(

Does anybody interested in this game?
Or Does anybody know how I can get the Phantasy Star I?

Please let me know! ;-)
Have a great weekend!

Keiko Shimozono
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 04:42:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Teleport Formula

Err, actually, it says "Teleport Cantrip," not "Formula," but I understand
what you are asking.

My policy on correc^ng the various typos in Mythus Magick is to give it the
ra^ng I think is most appropriate in context, e.g. the Basic Priest Tutelary
Cas^ng "Bounds of Acôn" is listed as a Spell on page 110 but as a Charm on
page 112. I think that it is clear, given its use in combat, that "Charm" is
what was really intended. Unfortunatly, we are all on our own now in
interpre^ng these things except where Dave Newton and the others on the list
who were involved with developing Mythus are kind enough to share their ^me.
I have been going through the Mythus Magick book as ^me permits with a big
purple pen and marking all the areas where there are typos or ambiguous
descripôns. I hope to share this on the list one of these days, or upload
the le to someone's FTP site/Web page.

There are other problems with MM that I hope I can address soon, and I
appreciate any input on these areas.

DOn
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 04:54:10 -0500

Don't hate me just because I'm beau^ful! (Remember that commercial?)

Seriously, you aren't missing all that much in this case. A lot of the info
in MMM #2 is already available to you in the rst Mythus book on page 332.
The addiônal material consists (for this creature) mostly of Dave's
descrip^ve material, armor values, innate Heka-engendered Powers, and
lling in the blanks to match the format used in the AErth Besâry (such
elds as Idenêr, Habitat, and so forth). If you want to know these
details, e-mail me privately and I will be happy to share them with you.

If only things could have held out longer, I think the planned Phaeree
besâry would have been a big seller, possibly enough to have turned Mythus
around and made it more money for GDW (and, by extension, Gary & Dave). It
is yet another reason to despise TSR--but I don't want to start another round
of TSR bashing again so soon. Let's talk Mythus!

Anybody else have an opinion on my Fay quesôn?

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 12:52:00 EET
From: Pajari Tommi <topajari@NCSBSR03OU.NTC.NOKIA.COM>
Subject: WEEP!!

>Seriously, you aren't missing all that much in this case. A lot of the
info
>in MMM #2 is already available to you in the rst Mythus book on page 332.
> The addiônal material consists (for this creature) mostly of Dave's
>descrip^ve material, armor values, innate Heka-engendered Powers, and
>lling in the blanks to match the format used in the AErth Besâry (such
>elds as Idenêr, Habitat, and so forth). If you want to know these
>details, e-mail me privately and I will be happy to share them with you.
>
>If only things could have held out longer, I think the planned Phaeree
>besâry would have been a big seller, possibly enough to have turned
Mythus
>around and made it more money for GDW (and, by extension, Gary & Dave). It
>is yet another reason to despise TSR--but I don't want to start another
round
>of TSR bashing again so soon. Let's talk Mythus!

My reasons for weeping hysterically:

1. MMM #2, what's that. Why isn't it/hasn't been on sales anywhere on
Finland?

2. Aerth besâry. No besâry of any kind on sales in Finland, either.
Ever.

All i got is the mythus book, mythys magick book, and the Aerth book. What
others are/have been available? PLEEZE!

Tommi Pajari
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 17:39:12 PST

>Quesôn: The General Dw. Grade VII Cas^ng Teleport Formula; is it a miss
>print? In the second paragraph of the descripôn of the cas^ng it is
>refered to as a Teleport Charm.
>
>George
>

I think it is a misprint. Many of the cas^ngs were changed inasmuch as cas^ng
^mes so we could make them lower or higher in grade. This must have been one of
those things that slipped past the editor at the last minute.

Dave=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 15:42:18 -0800
In-Reply-To: <960301044240_435352179@emout10.mail.aol.com> from "Donald
Eccles" at Mar 1, 96 04:42:42 am

>Donald Eccles wrote:
> I have been going through the Mythus Magick book as ^me permits with a big
> purple pen and marking all the areas where there are typos or ambiguous
> descripôns. I hope to share this on the list one of these days, or upload
> the le to someone's FTP site/Web page.

Something like this would be much appreciated here. I'm about to help
go through Mythus Magick and do something very similar, and having this sort
of list would be a great help.

Steven
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 17:31:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Mythus Web Sites

At 04:50 PM 2/29/96 -0500, Mike Phillips wrote:
>As most of you know, I maintain a preky heavy-duty Mythus WWW site.
>Well, I'm in the process of re-designing it (no, no, I'm not taking
>informaôn away! On the contrary, I'm adding quite a bit), and so I am
>solici^ng comments on beker ways of organizing the informaôn.
>
>I might add that I am akemp^ng to get a complete and accurate list of
>Web sites with any DJ and/or Mythus informaôn on them so I can list
>them in a master 'site index' sort of le. If you have such a beast,
>please let me know the URL and site ^tle, even if you know I already
>have it :-)
>
>Also, I have been unable to connect to 'Dekker's Mythus Site' and 'Jag's
>Lair' in recent weeks, so I would appreciate updated URLs.

Terribly sorry... my URL is at the bokom of this message. My mythus page
is s^ll scanty, as I'm unable to spend much ^me on it, or mythus itself at
present. Dekker's mythus page is on the same server... simply connect to
the server itself and follow links down... (it's our personal server, so we
can do that sorta thing).

Gary

=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 14:57:22 EST
Subject: Mythus at Madicon 5!
X-To: The adnd listserv <ADND-L@UTARLVM1.UTA.EDU>,
Game Master's Listserv <gmast-l%utcvm.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

What follows is the adver^sement for Madicon V, taking
place in Harrisonburg, VA. What isn't menôned below is that yours
truly will be running a Mythus game there at 10am on Saturday
(unfortunately, I'll be compe^ng with Margaret Weis, who has a
speaking ^me slot from 11 to 11:30, but something's beker than
nothing, eh?). I'll start out with a brief explanaôn and
descripôn of the game system, and there will be a pe^ôn for TSR
to revive the system. If you can make it, please, please, please do
come and akend, if it's just so that I can have some faces to match
with e-mail addresses. :)
For those on ADND-L, I do realize this isn't quite on topic,
but there was a Mythus discussion there a few weeks back, and I know
a few of you are interested in Mythus and not on Mythus-L. For the
rest of you, please accept my apologies.

Forwarded message:
> From GLASSBT@VAX1.ACS.JMU.EDU Mon Oct 30 13:20:33 1995
> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 12:52:20 -0500 (EST)
> Subject: Welcome to Madicon 5!
>
> Hello and welcome to the rst mailing of Madicon 5.
>
> The dates of Madicon 5 have been set. They are March 15-17.
>
> Guests of Honor! We have 'em! Margaret Weis (of Dragonlance fame), Don Perrin
> (co-conspirator with Weiss on "Knights of the Dark Star"), Todd Mayeld (from
> White Wolf Gaming Studios--developer of the RAGE card playing game) as well as
> many more!
>
> What's going on this year at the con?

> Our rst Ocially Sancôned RAGE tournament! (Prizes and awards!)
> Vendor Room is back in full swing!
> The Anime Room welcomes Zor back to the helm.
> Computer Room--play CD-Rom games, play Sega, play Super Nintendo
> Gaming Gaming Gaming! As always, we will have RPGA materials to run!
> and much more...
>
> If you know of anyone that wants to know more about Madicon, or be put on this
> mailing list, please e-mail me. Thanks!
>
> Let me tell you a bit about myself. I'm Brian Glass, a senior marke^ng major
> here at JMU. I've worked on the past 3 cons and this year I'm *lucky* enough
> to be the con chair. Things should be very exci^ng this year due to the fact
> that we're star^ng to get more recogniôn and bigger guests.
>
> Sorry to cut this so short, but this is basically a test post to make sure
> everything is going smoothly.
>
> Thanks for you akenôn!
>
> -Brian
> Madicon V ConChair
>
> ==============================================================================
> Brian Glass GLASSBT@vax2.acs.jmu.edu (VAX)
> James Madison University GLASSBT@falcon.jmu.edu (UNIX)
>
> Who wants to live forever?
> ________________________{]__________________________________________________
> {&&&&&&&#%%&#%&%&%&%&%#
%&|]__________________________________________________\
> {]
> In the end, there can be only one...
> ==============================================================================
>
> What's Madicon V? It's a sci- & fantasy convenôn! E-mail me for more info!
>

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 13:11:12 -0800

From: Keiko Shimozono <shimozon@SCS.UNR.EDU>
Subject: Phantasy Star

Hi there,
Does anybody like Phantasy Star games (SEGA Genesis)? This RPG is
great. If you do, please e-mail me at shimozon@scs.unr.edu !!!
Let's beat the Dark Force together!!! :)
Keiko
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 12:15:00 -0500
Subject: Dualism in the Persian Pantheon

The following ar^cle is based on some research I did in an akempt to discover
deity informaôn for the 'Persian' pantheon menôned in Epic of AErth. I
was unable to nd anything pantheis^c about the Persian people. In fact,
I learned that on Earth, the Persian religion was Zoroastrianism (which btw
is a rela^ve of Mithraism, not the same faith). Doing some more research,
I discovered that Zoroastrian dualism was based upon the numerous local
deiês of that region being subsumed as angels and devils in the service
of Ahura Mazda and Angra Manyu. So, for all of you who use AErth as your
campaign world, or if you are interested in having a dualis^c faith but
want to use the Ethos system because of the great source material found in
Mythus and Mythus Magick, read on!

Dualism versus Pantheism in the Persian Religion

The dualism of the Northern branch of the pantheon noted earlier
in this text is in reference to the following of Zarathrusta
which is prevalent in the North, and centered in the Parthian
city of Ray. Zarathrusta was a Magus-Dastwar of Ahura Mazda who
lived about a milenium before the Fall of Atlan^s. Zarathrusta
believed, some feel here^cally, that the Persian pantheon would
be beker worshiped by a dualis^c faith. He proposed that Ahura
Mazda and Anagra Manyu, the chief benevolent and destrc^ve forces
respec^vely were the only true Gods of the pantheon. The rest of
the Gods fell into one of two categories, Yazad (benecient
angels) or Daeva (devils).

As a result, the pantheon has (even in the tradiônal Shirazan
branch) become increasingly polarized over the past two milenia,
though this has been a very slow process as the faith seems to
uxuate between being on the verge of an iden^ty crisis and
reluctant acceptance of their schizmed state. The Gods seem
strangely silent, preferring to allow their worshipers to work
out this unusual maker for themselves.

Even though there is now only one temple in Ray (dedicated to

Ahura Mazda and his Yazads), there are numerous devotes of the
Yazads to be found in Northern temples. Not surprisingly, it is
dicult to nd anyone willing to openly admit being a follower
of Anagra Manyu or his Daeva. Daeva worship is ac^vely outlawed
in all states of the pantheon except Khwarizm, where it is s^ll
strongly discouraged.

---------------------------------
Anyways, I perceive the Ray sect of the pantheon as being strongly dualis^c,
but by retaining devotes of the Yazads and Daeva, it s^ll has certain
ethos-like and pantheis^c elements. Ok, it's not ARIA, but it certainly is
one soluôn.

Quesôns, Comments, Suggesôns? Please let me know!

--Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu

P.S. I got most of my research from the Web (Chris' Mythology Home Page,
I think). If anyone is interested in a full bibliography, just send me
private email, and I'll look it up for you.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 12:53:54 -0500
From: Chris Dion <rayd@GLEN-NET.CA>
Subject: ARIA

Well, I'm hooked. I've heard so many posi^ve things about ARIA that I've
desided to look into, or maybe purchase, the system. I remember something
on this list a while ago about the books not being availiable, or just being
reprinted or something. Anyone know anything that can help? Is the an ARIA
mailing list as well?

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 10:59:55 MDT
From: Allowat Sakima <RWORCESTER@LAB1.NRIDGEHS.DAVIS.K12.UT.US>
Organizaôn: NORTHRIDGE HIGH SCHOOL
Subject: HELP!!!!!!!

I would like some informaôn on Mythus-L
I am a newcommer in this role playing game and would like it somebody
would send me a general form of the character sheet for, power,
weapons, spells (if any), or anything else that you would like to
send.

I would also like to receive some informaôn on Mythus-L itself.
Thank you.

Allowat Sakima
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 12:19:01 -0600
Subject: Re: Dualism in the Persian Pantheon
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9603061202.C13140-0100000@blackbird.birds.wm.edu> from
"Snead Ryan W" at Mar 6, 96 12:15:00 pm

Ryan,

Good work! But, I would make one suggesôn. In actuall prac^ce you
should have both Ahura Mazda and Anagra ?? worshipped openly. If the
faith is really dualis^c then it should be apparent in all walks of life.
There should always be two priests providing advice on all subjects, one
from each sect. As I recall from my research into the subject, the evil
twin was somehow subject to Ahura Mazda, so if this was the case the good
would outweigh the bad in deliberaôns. Each Temple should have shrines
to both deiês within in to celebrate the dualism. I think the two sects
would not be openly and violently antagonis^c, but more of opposite
opinions on every subject. The 'evil' priest taking the role of devils
advocate in every argument, but everyone recognizing that they play an
important role in society.

Ever heard of the Sacred Clowns of the Puebla Indians? Their role is to
point out to the mesa-dwellers their own fallacies and mistakes so that
they can recognize them and hopefully correct them in the future. Perhaps
the evil priests could provide a similar service.

Dan.

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 20:28:03 -0500
Subject: Re: ARIA

At 12:53 PM 3/6/96 -0500, Chris Dion wrote:
>Well, I'm hooked. I've heard so many posi^ve things about ARIA that I've
>desided to look into, or maybe purchase, the system. I remember something
>on this list a while ago about the books not being availiable, or just being
>reprinted or something. Anyone know anything that can help? Is the an ARIA
>mailing list as well?

It's gone for a reprint... it should be available fairly soon now...

Take care,
Gary
(who got his recently despite the shortage, cuz he works in the industry).

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 18:23:16 -0800
From: Don Isaak <ystud@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: ARIA
X-To: Gary Spechko <spechko@T8000.COM>
In-Reply-To: <MYTHUS-L%96030620280358@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>

There are also copies of the Aria Worlds book up here in Seakle, if
someone is looking.

As for another quesôn asked recently, there IS an Aria discussion group.

Donovan Isaak
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 08:22:09 +0200
From: Ani Kauâinen <anolka@UTU.FI>
In-Reply-To: <m0tuNrV-000AF0C@Uucp1.mcs.net>

On Wed, 6 Mar 1996, Dan T Williamson wrote:

> There should always be two priests providing advice on all subjects, one
> from each sect. As I recall from my research into the subject, the evil
> twin was somehow subject to Ahura Mazda, so if this was the case the good
> would outweigh the bad in deliberaôns. Each Temple should have shrines
> to both deiês within in to celebrate the dualism. I think the two sects
> would not be openly and violently antagonis^c, but more of opposite
> opinions on every subject. The 'evil' priest taking the role of devils
> advocate in every argument, but everyone recognizing that they play an
> important role in society.

>
> Ever heard of the Sacred Clowns of the Puebla Indians? Their role is to
> point out to the mesa-dwellers their own fallacies and mistakes so that
> they can recognize them and hopefully correct them in the future. Perhaps
> the evil priests could provide a similar service.
>
> Dan.
Okay, it's ^me to stop lurking and write something to the list.
This sounds great and very useful, because it makes 'evil' acceptable,
not intolabre, as the naive ethos(Allignment) system represent it.
(Enemies of HPs are Evil Personae, which means HPs are supposed to be
good guys.. I did't like the idea.) And aver all this adds more color to
the religious system of mythus by adding dualis^c religion. (Good work
Ryan, I apreciated your idea, and think that dualis^c pantheons should
exist.)
Kautsu, Finnish ADP-student, and proud of it.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 08:47:29 +0100
Subject: Re: ARIA

At 12:53 6-03-96 -0500, you wrote:
>Well, I'm hooked. I've heard so many posi^ve things about ARIA that I've
>desided to look into, or maybe purchase, the system. I remember something
>on this list a while ago about the books not being availiable, or just being
>reprinted or something. Anyone know anything that can help? Is the an ARIA
>mailing list as well?
>
> Chris

Yes, there is an ARIA list on the same server as the MYTHUS-L:
ARIA-L <ARIA-L@BROWNVM.brown.edu>

You subscribe in the same way as to the Mythus-L.

Harold
_____________________________________________________________________

Work: Private:
1315 KT Almere Tel/Fax +31 - (0)36 53 64 798
The Netherlands
Tel +31 - (0)36 53 43 445
Fax +31 - (0)36 53 47 265


_____________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 16:25:43 +0100

Just a quick quesôn: has anyone done any work on using the various
Ethoi in the Cel^c pantheon?

--MARK


"Then you must cut down the largest tree in the forest with...
A HERRING."
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:13:17 -0500
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960307081445.19100B-100000@castor.cc.utu.>

On Thu, 7 Mar 1996, Ani Kauâinen wrote:

> On Wed, 6 Mar 1996, Dan T Williamson wrote:
>
[snipped commentary from Dan]

> Okay, it's ^me to stop lurking and write something to the list.
> This sounds great and very useful, because it makes 'evil' acceptable,
> not intolabre, as the naive ethos(Allignment) system represent it.
> (Enemies of HPs are Evil Personae, which means HPs are supposed to be
> good guys.. I did't like the idea.) And aver all this adds more color to
> the religious system of mythus by adding dualis^c religion. (Good work
> Ryan, I apreciated your idea, and think that dualis^c pantheons should
> exist.)
This is very interes^ng. I feel that I have to give credit where it is
due however. I merely made the suggesôn of introducing dualism as a
part of the Ethos system for one pantheon, essenâlly subsuming parts
of the Ethoi which are not Sunlight or Gloomy Darkness to the greater
ethoi of 'Good' and 'Evil'. The Ethoi would s^ll exist due to the
extreme usefullness of having Ethos cas^ngs, but some Ethos Shadowy
priests would work for Daeva (greater darkness) while others would work
for Yazads (greater light). I think that while the Ethos system
certainly does have its problems, it doesn't deserve the bum rap it
gets.

First of all, there is no reason whatsoever to keep a player from
playing an evil HP or to use the dark arts. In our gaming group, we have
two HPs with necromancy and black dweomercraev. In that same party are
an Ethos Sunlight Priest(!), a White dweomercraever(!), and a third
personna who uses both(!!). Of course, they all have their own interests
and designs apart from being 'Good' or 'Evil' which prevents this powder
keg from turning into a restorm.

However, one of the players HPs, an assassin, is itching to hurt one of the
'Good' HPs, a Paladin type with Ethos Sunlight Priestcraev and White
Dweomercraev. The player has expressed to me the desire to kill the Paladin,
reanimate his corpse, throw up some illusions, and see how long it takes the
party to no^ce the Paladin is dead. I doubt he would actually be able to
pull this o convincingly; but whatever he does try, like all black ar^sts,
he had beker be able to cover his tracks well!

I guess the point I am trying to make is that Ethos is a choice which
reects desire on the part of the personna to act with a certain
morality in mind. It is not an obstacle to inhibit personna development
and acôns as it is oven used in other gaming systems (read:Paladium
and EGS). It is a choice, like anything else in Mythus. And if one
player makes a choice to be good and another player makes a choice to be
bad, embrace it! Conict is the heart of good roleplaying.

I can also understand the need for some people to play moral
rela^vists. Some^mes that's what people need. If it helps you to
throw out the Ethos system and use a dualis^c faith where good and evil
are makers of opinion, and that world view suits your players, go for it!
The important thing is that everyone has a good ^me.

--Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:16:09 -0500
In-Reply-To: <390251762A@daisy.le.ac.uk>

On Thu, 7 Mar 1996, M.A.Trickek wrote:

> Just a quick quesôn: has anyone done any work on using the various
> Ethoi in the Cel^c pantheon?

No, but we'd like to see some work done on it if you have the ^me and
inclinaôn. :-)

--Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 14:02:05 -0500
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9603071202.A13320-0100000@ycatcher.birds.wm.edu>

On Thu, 7 Mar 1996, Snead Ryan W wrote:

> First of all, there is no reason whatsoever to keep a player from
> playing an evil HP or to use the dark arts. In our gaming group, we have
> two HPs with necromancy and black dweomercraev. In that same party are
> an Ethos Sunlight Priest(!), a White dweomercraever(!), and a third
> personna who uses both(!!). Of course, they all have their own interests
> and designs apart from being 'Good' or 'Evil' which prevents this powder
> keg from turning into a restorm.

That, and the 'evil' HP is hiding his malevolent tendancies (that would
be the assassin) from the rest of the party. BTW, I don't think
Firedancer has actually taken black -- she has just expressed the
desire. She has taken necromancy, however.

> However, one of the players HPs, an assassin, is itching to hurt one of the
> 'Good' HPs, a Paladin type with Ethos Sunlight Priestcraev and White
> Dweomercraev. The player has expressed to me the desire to kill the Paladin,
> reanimate his corpse, throw up some illusions, and see how long it takes the
> party to no^ce the Paladin is dead. I doubt he would actually be able to
> pull this o convincingly; but whatever he does try, like all black ar^sts,
> he had beker be able to cover his tracks well!

Uh oh..... That could be problema^c. The *player* of the
paladin-cavalier-goody-two-shoes would be most irritated if that
happened.....

Hm. As the JM of this brewing restorm, I now appeal to my fellow
gamers on the list -- how would you handle a situaôn where one player
sucker-punches another player (gura^vely speaking) for 'fun', where
the other player is very upset by the punch?

(We'll skip that the player being sucker-punched is the JM's Signicant
Other, and that the JM has studiously avoided favori^sm to such a point
that the SO is already complaining about being dumped on more than any
other player..... :-/ That's what I get for being scrupulously unfair
to everyone.)

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 14:51:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Dualism in the Persian Pantheon (fwd)

---------- Forwarded message ---------Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:49:55 -0700
From: Dworkin Bear-imen <bear@spieg.interealm.com>
To: mike@LAWLIB.WM.EDU

Mike, could you forward this up to the list for me? I s^ll can't post from
my address, only recieve.

At 02:02 PM 3/7/96 -0500, you wrote:
>On Thu, 7 Mar 1996, Snead Ryan W wrote:
>
>> However, one of the players HPs, an assassin, is itching to hurt one of the
>> 'Good' HPs, a Paladin type with Ethos Sunlight Priestcraev and White
>> Dweomercraev. The player has expressed to me the desire to kill the
Paladin,
>> reanimate his corpse, throw up some illusions, and see how long it takes the
>> party to no^ce the Paladin is dead.

Hmm. I think I would point out the dierence between 'evil' (which I tend
to dene as 'totally self-serving') and 'psycho^c' (which I tend to dend
as 'totally freakin' nuts'). The thing here is to inforce reality: sure, its
a fantasy game, but do sane people in any seing kill a companion for the
amusement factor? Sure, kill em if they stand to gain by it... but to do so
as a test of the other HP's percepôn or for a likle chuckle?

If the player is supposed to be playing an unhinged person, than the only
quesôn is why the other HP's don't have em locked up... if they are 'only'
supposed to be evil, then I would humbly suggest the player might want to
reconsider their acôns as illogical, based on the mind-set already
established for the character (get the idea I've had this conversaôn with
some of my players before? ;) >

>> I doubt he would actually be able to
>> pull this o convincingly; but whatever he does try, like all black ar^sts,
>> he had beker be able to cover his tracks well!

As far as that goes... leaving illusions that you cast all over the body, as
well as reanima^ng the corpse would be like intenônally leaving
ngerprints everywhere... expecially with as many Heka-users as your group
appears to have.

>Uh oh..... That could be problema^c. The *player* of the
>paladin-cavalier-goody-two-shoes would be most irritated if that
>happened.....

Umm... yeah :)

>Hm. As the JM of this brewing restorm, I now appeal to my fellow
>gamers on the list -- how would you handle a situaôn where one player
>sucker-punches another player (gura^vely speaking) for 'fun', where
>the other player is very upset by the punch?

I put some stu up above that approaches how to deal with it before it
happens... as for what to do aver... or even during...

Well, HP's have joss, I'd say success in this endeavor is going to be damn
hard anyway...

What to do in this situaôn is dicult, to say the least, and highly
dependent on circumstances... I would use surrounding/circumstances in a way
to prevent the success of the act... but if the player has decided that
their HP is wacko (and I maintain you've goka be a couple yards past
Hannibal Lector to randomly kill folks for the amusement factor) then it's
sorta the fault of the player's companions for not taking precauôns.

Alternately, you could just ask the player not to do it without 1>
establishing more background on thier dislike of hte Paladin 2> Establishing
that their escalator is running the Wrong Way.

>(We'll skip that the player being sucker-punched is the JM's Signicant
>Other, and that the JM has studiously avoided favori^sm to such a point
>that the SO is already complaining about being dumped on more than any
>other player..... :-/ That's what I get for being scrupulously unfair
>to everyone.)

Heh, I have the same problem. My philosophy is 'beker to over-compensate
then under-compensate'. I think that balances out when that SO/Player can
ask quesôns about the game at any given ^me... in a way, they get to
'play' whenever they want, sort of.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 15:08:07 -0500

At 02:02 PM 3/7/96 -0500, Mike Phillips wrote:

>That, and the 'evil' HP is hiding his malevolent tendancies (that would
>be the assassin) from the rest of the party. BTW, I don't think
>Firedancer has actually taken black -- she has just expressed the
>desire. She has taken necromancy, however.

I have an assassin in my current group, which has been running for almost
two years now. He has not been a disrup^ve force at all. This may be
because none of the rest of the HPs are true goody-goodies, but it's more
likely due to the fact that the players like playing together, and like
living without the constraints of an ar^cial alignment.

>> However, one of the players HPs, an assassin, is itching to hurt one of the
>> 'Good' HPs, a Paladin type with Ethos Sunlight Priestcraev and White
>> Dweomercraev. The player has expressed to me the desire to kill the
Paladin,
>> reanimate his corpse, throw up some illusions, and see how long it takes the
>> party to no^ce the Paladin is dead. I doubt he would actually be able to
>> pull this o convincingly; but whatever he does try, like all black ar^sts,
>> he had beker be able to cover his tracks well!

Is this a purely character-based mo^vaôn, or is there some animosity
between players? If there's no animosity between players, simply point out
to the assassin's player that such an acôn would not be conducive to
con^nuing good player relaôns. If's there's a player conict, then
you're screwed <G>.

>Uh oh..... That could be problema^c. The *player* of the
>paladin-cavalier-goody-two-shoes would be most irritated if that
>happened.....
>Hm. As the JM of this brewing restorm, I now appeal to my fellow
>gamers on the list -- how would you handle a situaôn where one player
>sucker-punches another player (gura^vely speaking) for 'fun', where
>the other player is very upset by the punch?

If the assassin goes through with it, assign all the standard diculty
modiers.. how will s/he do the deed without the rest knowing, and more
importantly, force the player to play the assassinaôn. I would allow the
player of the paladin to react as if s/he were being akacked by an OP.
Failing that, use the Paladin's joss... if the player were to be akacked in
normal game play, they'd be spending their joss like water... no reason for
this to be any dierent.

>(We'll skip that the player being sucker-punched is the JM's Signicant
>Other, and that the JM has studiously avoided favori^sm to such a point
>that the SO is already complaining about being dumped on more than any
>other player..... :-/ That's what I get for being scrupulously unfair
>to everyone.)

Heh heh... goka hate that. My SO complains along the same lines...

Take care,
Gary

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 16:55:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Avoiding player vs player...

Mike-
Gee, it would s^nk for that poor assassin if someone accidentally
slipped a love poôn into his mightly ale... :) And then the paladin
show up as the rst thing the poor assassin sees...

You can't kill and re-animate the one you love, can you?? :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 15:20:04 -0700
From: Dworkin Bear-imen <bear@SPIEG.INTEREALM.COM>
Subject: Rejected pos^ng to MYTHUS-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU

At 04:55 PM 3/7/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Mike->
>Gee, it would s^nk for that poor assassin if someone accidentally
>slipped a love poôn into his mightly ale... :) And then the paladin
>show up as the rst thing the poor assassin sees...
>
>You can't kill and re-animate the one you love, can you?? :)
>
>Jesse

Jesse, you are an evil, evil man...

that's the best idea I've heard yet. :)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Doyce's plain ol' .sig

bear@nexus.interealm.com (where I always look) <|> dtesterman@procard.com (work)
dtesterm@sunsh.usd.edu (not here for long..) <|> //www.interealm.com/p/bear/

"Suppose you were an idiot -- suppose you were a Senator. But I repeat myself."
--Mark Twain
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 17:44:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Rejected pos^ng to MYTHUS-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU
In-Reply-To: <199603072220.PAA18523@interealm.com>

Doyce-
Yeah, I'm evil. So what? :)

You have to be careful with my love poôn idea, though. A couple years
ago one of my ex-players used it on another one of the ex-players.
They've been going out since... (real life, not the game, since I quit
that campaign...)

Of course, since the paladin is Mike's SO, that might cause a *minor*
problem... >:) (evil grin)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 19:48:10 -0700
Subject: Player vs. Player
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.960307145114.17548B-100000@skaro.lawlib.wm.edu>
from "Mike Phillips" at Mar 7, 96 02:51:22 pm

> Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:49:55 -0700
> From: Dworkin Bear-imen <bear@spieg.interealm.com>
> To: mike@LAWLIB.WM.EDU
> Subject: Re: Dualism in the Persian Pantheon
>
> Mike, could you forward this up to the list for me? I s^ll can't post from
> my address, only recieve.

> At 02:02 PM 3/7/96 -0500, you wrote:
> >On Thu, 7 Mar 1996, Snead Ryan W wrote:
> >
> >> However, one of the players HPs, an assassin, is itching to hurt one of the
> >> 'Good' HPs, a Paladin type with Ethos Sunlight Priestcraev and White
> >> Dweomercraev. The player has expressed to me the desire to kill the
> Paladin,
> >> reanimate his corpse, throw up some illusions, and see how long it takes the
> >> party to no^ce the Paladin is dead.
> Hmm. I think I would point out the dierence between 'evil' (which I tend
> to dene as 'totally self-serving') and 'psycho^c' (which I tend to dend
> as 'totally freakin' nuts').

I'd actually put the "self-serving" thing under "chaos", rather than
"evil", per the EGS. The people I've played with tend to dene "evil" in
terms of *what* you'd do to achieve your goals, not whether you do it for
yourself or the good of all... Killing innocents is an evil act, whether you
do it for yourself or for your friends.

You've obviously never GMed for a group of objec^vists. If you try to tell
them that "self-serving" is evil, all hell will break loose... :)

> The thing here is to inforce reality: sure, its
> a fantasy game, but do sane people in any seing kill a companion for the
> amusement factor? Sure, kill em if they stand to gain by it... but to do so
> as a test of the other HP's percepôn or for a likle chuckle?

I guess my quesôn is: Is there a reason? Has the paladin insulted the
assassin mul^ple ^mes, or otherwise *really* pissed him/her o? Killing
someone over a minor argument is something I'd consider evil, and not
necessarily psycho^c. Killing someone because it sounds fun might change
my diagnosis...

> If the player is supposed to be playing an unhinged person, than the only
> quesôn is why the other HP's don't have em locked up... if they are 'only'
> supposed to be evil, then I would humbly suggest the player might want to
> reconsider their acôns as illogical, based on the mind-set already
> established for the character (get the idea I've had this conversaôn with
> some of my players before? ;) >
>
> >> I doubt he would actually be able to
> >> pull this o convincingly; but whatever he does try, like all black ar^sts,
> >> he had beker be able to cover his tracks well!
>
> >Uh oh..... That could be problema^c. The *player* of the
> >paladin-cavalier-goody-two-shoes would be most irritated if that
> >happened.....
>
> Umm... yeah :)
>
> >Hm. As the JM of this brewing restorm, I now appeal to my fellow
> >gamers on the list -- how would you handle a situaôn where one player
> >sucker-punches another player (gura^vely speaking) for 'fun', where

> >the other player is very upset by the punch?

Well, having watched while the two elf-maids in my group got disgusted with
the an^cs of the half-orcs and jumped at the earliest possible excuse to
slip 'em a dagger or two (successfully, I might add), I've never had a
problem with good players.

Players will be players, and I've found that the type of person who lashes
out in real life because of a fellow's "character assassinaôn" (okay, that
was *really* bad!) is the kind who will be angry at the GM when a die roll
indicates that the arrow wound has caused Ultra Vital damage and an eulogy
is in order. And anyone who's had to play with such a person knows that
*that* kind of individual has *got* to go.

> I put some stu up above that approaches how to deal with it before it
> happens... as for what to do aver... or even during...
>
> Well, HP's have joss, I'd say success in this endeavor is going to be damn
> hard anyway...

Exactly. I consider it an excellent role-playing opportunity-- especially
if it fails. If it succeeds, then said assassin is probably going to be
oed by the rest of the party, who will assume that the assassin is
actually in the hire of the chief antagonist of your campaign. If the
player of the assassin complains at *that*, you should all laugh hear^ly at
his expense.

> What to do in this situaôn is dicult, to say the least, and highly
> dependent on circumstances... I would use surrounding/circumstances in a way
> to prevent the success of the act... but if the player has decided that
> their HP is wacko (and I maintain you've goka be a couple yards past
> Hannibal Lector to randomly kill folks for the amusement factor) then it's
> sorta the fault of the player's companions for not taking precauôns.
>
> Alternately, you could just ask the player not to do it without 1>
> establishing more background on thier dislike of hte Paladin 2> Establishing
> that their escalator is running the Wrong Way.

I guess I've rarely had that kind of problem. Whenever my players have
started axing each other, you could generally spot the root cause fairly
easily. For example, in an "Against the Giants" EGS campaign I ran about a
year ago, one of the characters was a neutral evil mage, and not well-liked
by his companions, who included a druid. This was primarily due to his
disparaging remarks about the druid's female henchdruid, and his use of
spells to do deviant things with several of his own henchmen. And the fact
that the authoriês had to constantly ask him not to beat his slaves in
public...

Eventually, aver an unsuccessful foray into the hill giant steading, with
boulders being loved aver them, the mage fell. Needless to say, the druid
didn't hesitate to ignore his plight, and even used a rock to mud cas^ng on
the mage's remaining none-too-palatable henchfreaks while the rest of the
group rode to safety.

Doug (the mage's player) nodded his head, aver the iniâl shock, and
grabbed a new persona sheet. And that was that.

BTW, lest you think Doug might be somewhat of a nutcase himself, I will only
say that he was, by far, the *best* roleplayer I have ever gamed with. When
he played an evil scuzball, it was no-holds-barred. On the other hand, when
he rolled up his new character, he played it *even beker*.

The druid came to regret the mage's death, for the new persona to arrive was
just as bad: a holier-than-thou paladin named (and I am *not* making this up,
considering who's been par^cipa^ng in this thread) Dworkin.

> >other player..... :-/ That's what I get for being scrupulously unfair
> >to everyone.)
> Heh, I have the same problem. My philosophy is 'beker to over-compensate
> then under-compensate'. I think that balances out when that SO/Player can
> ask quesôns about the game at any given ^me... in a way, they get to
> 'play' whenever they want, sort of.

Damn, your SOs will actually *play* ?!? I'm jealous already!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 00:41:49 -0800
Subject: Player conict
from "Mike Phillips" at Mar 7, 96 02:02:05 pm

> > However, one of the players HPs, an assassin, is itching to hurt one
> > of the 'Good' HPs, a Paladin type with Ethos Sunlight Priestcraev
> > and White Dweomercraev. The player has expressed to me the desire
> > to kill the Paladin, reanimate his corpse, throw up some illusions,
> > and see how long it takes the party to no^ce the Paladin is dead.
> > I doubt he would actually be able to pull this o convincingly; but
> > whatever he does try, like all black ar^sts, he had beker be able
> > to cover his tracks well!
>
> Uh oh..... That could be problema^c. The *player* of the
> paladin-cavalier-goody-two-shoes would be most irritated if that
> happened.....
>
> Hm. As the JM of this brewing restorm, I now appeal to my fellow
> gamers on the list -- how would you handle a situaôn where one player
> sucker-punches another player (gura^vely speaking) for 'fun', where
> the other player is very upset by the punch?

I'll keep my suggesôn general, though the iden^ty of the person
playing the Paladin only makes things touchier. ;)

I'd ask myself this quesôn: Would leing the situaôn play out
without interference result in strained friendships between the players
or one of the players and the JM? If the players involved are able to
keep the conict within the game and not let it spill out into RL, then
it's probably safe just to let everyone handle it in-character. If not,
then would be beker to take the assassin's player aside and explain
that you run games where the character's have to work together, even
if they may not like each other.

I've seen such conicts spill into real-life arguments and crop up
in later campaigns with en^rely dierent characters. It can be an
especially touchy situaôn in gaming groups made up of your friends.
IMHO, it's beker to intervene in a game than to risk one or more
friendships.

Steven
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:09:14 -0600
Subject: Assassins

Why do people always assume that Assassins must be 'evil'?

I picture assassins like professional hit men, not homicidal
maniacs. I suppose some of them are, but why do all players have
to run the homicidal versions? In my solo game the lone player
is an assassin, and a basically good person, doing what he is
good at. He no longer ac^vely take 'commissions' but he is
s^ll basically a trained killer. How is that dierently than
any other warrior and soldier (especially in a fantasy seing)?

I think the person who pointed out that the acôns the assassin is
planning against the paladin are beyond sane was right. Killing
the paladin might be in character, but reanima^ng them and using
illusions to dupe the rest of the party is clearly out of line.

Dan.


=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 11:26:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Persians

I know we strayed somewhat from the original topic. Does anyone have any
other comments about the Persian pantheon? Would you like to see more
work on it? Does anyone think they might use the informaôn in their
campaigns?

Also, having had further discussions with the player of the assassin, I
learned that his player comments concerning reanimaôn of cavaliers were
made in jest. The personna has taken a dislike to the somewhat at and
cocky personality of the calalier-Paladin, but it is not one of deadly
means. And to my knowledge, there is no angry feelings between my
roomate and Mike's SO.

--Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 12:07:57 -0500
Subject: Black School Dweomercraev (Revised and Expanded)

Here (again) is the expansion of colleges in the Black school of
Dweomercraev. I added a likle bit more background on the Ebondark
College and Abyssal Ins^tute. Enjoy!

Facôns within the school: While the Abyssal Ins^tute and
Ebondark College both agree that the strong should rule over the
weak and that power is best drawn from the lower planes, they are
very much opposed concerning the proper method of that rule.

Ebondark College: members of this movement in the black school
rely upon fear and the dominaôn of others to gain power for
themselves. They prize order and structure almost as much as
their knowledge of the dark arts from which they derive power.
However, some of their numbers are not above permi^ng temporal
chaos in the interest of establishing a greater overall order
(with themselves at the top of the power structure of course)
There is no room among Ebondark prac^ôners for the weak or the
undiciplined. To defy the orders of a superior hekaur in the
movement can be suicidal, intollerable, and expected.

Abyssal Ins^tute: prac^ôners in the Abyssal movement are

masters of dark chaos. They understand only the tyrrany of
terror. Ins^tuôns of this mindset are found only in the most
fearsome of locales and oven remote from civilizaôn. This
protects both the secrecy of their research as well as providing
their membership protecôn from an angry populace. Though the
Abyssal are not as powerful as the more organized Ebondark
movement, they are much more dangerous due to their destruc^ve
potenâl and the power oven associated with individuals in
their order.

Concentraôns in the Black School: The majors of darkness are
taught in both the Ebondark and Abyssal movements, as the
cas^ngs have their uses for prac^ôners of either philosophy.

Discord: This concentraôn can be used to bring down rival
organizaôns or just to add terror and confusion to any
situaôn. Its an^thesis is the White school concentraôn of
Harmony.

Pain: This concentraôn specializes in the control or
degradaôn of the physical body or objects and thus is the
an^thesis to the White school concentraôn of Healing.

Perversion: This concentraôn may be employed for deceit, thev,
or falsehood. Some also consider it the mental version of the
Pain Sub-Area, though the mental cas^ngs are oven taught to
students in Pain as well. Perversion is the an^thesis of the
White school concentraôn of Knowledge.

Major Centers in Aeropa: In Aeropa, the most advanced centers of dark learning
are actually the focal points for the two major facôns in the Black School.
The Ebondark College and Abyssal Ins^tute both have near global inuence and
power. They generally work for opposed ends except when the maker turns to
gh^ng the cause of light.

Abyssal Ins^tute: This ins^tuôn of dark power is said to be located
somewhere beneath the ice of Pohjola. The tyrranical government there
ac^vely supports the Ins^tute and employs many of her graduates in
special forces for use both above ground and below. Some claim that
Pohjola may be akemp^ng to expand her sphere of inuence in Subterranean
AErth, though many take wonder at the value of this expansion since the
extent of the caverns below that island are unknown and those who go
beneath the ice are not oven heard from again.

Ebondark College: As a part of the Academie d'Sorcerie d'Ys, this selec^ve
school turns out a small number of graduates whose skills are greatly sought
aver. Some of their number certainly have taken pacts of Sorcery (eec^vely
double majors), most of the graduates turn out to be Full Prac^cioners and
thus are less tempted to risk their lives for greater power. The government of
Ys seems to have likle to do with the Ebondark College or any other branch
of the Academie. The faculty of the Ebondark prefer it to remain something
of a free agent in Aeropa and the world.

Once again, the usual call for comments, quesôns, etc. rings out over
the hills.

--Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 14:18:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Black School Dweomercraev (Revised and Expanded)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9603081146.A10653-0100000@roadrunner.birds.wm.edu>

Ryan-
Well done exposiôn on Blackness... :)

I do nd one thing funny, however; see if you can imagine the scene:

"Hey, baby, what's your major?"

"Oh, I'm a double major in Sorcery and Black Wizardry with a
specializaôn in Perversion..."

or, beker yet:

"Oh yeah? I'm a double major in Sorcery and Early Childhood Development."

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 12:26:53 -0800

At 11:26 AM 3/8/96 -0500, you wrote:
>I know we strayed somewhat from the original topic. Does anyone have any
>other comments about the Persian pantheon? Would you like to see more
>work on it? Does anyone think they might use the informaôn in their
>campaigns?

Problem with the Persian/Mesopotamian dieês is that the area is SO
old, and clear dis^ncôns are dicult to draw. In Dieês and Demigods,
they were divided into Sumerian and Babylonian mythoi.
I would use the informaôn.
Goka go

mike

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 16:15:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Assassins

Anyone who wants to check out a "non-stereotyped" assassin should check out
Clive Barker's novel, Imajica, and the character, Pie o Pah. Denately not
evil in most regards.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 18:35:24 -0500
In-Reply-To: <199603092026.MAA70010@rho.ben2.ucla.edu>

On Sat, 9 Mar 1996, Chris Calvert wrote:

[snip]
> Problem with the Persian/Mesopotamian dieês is that the area is SO
> old, and clear dis^ncôns are dicult to draw. In Dieês and Demigods,
> they were divided into Sumerian and Babylonian mythoi.
> I would use the informaôn.
> Goka go

Actually, there is a Babylonian pantheon already in Mythus, which I
believe is the one of which you are thinking. The main state of that
pantheon in Epic of AErth is Farz, a state based upon the Farsi people of
modern Iran (most of whom were converted to Islam btw).
Before the coming of Islam to Persia (c700?), the Farsi were followers of the
religion of the prophet Zoroaster. In Zoroastrianism, there are only two
deiês, Ahura Mazda and Angra Manyu. Thus, they are a dualis^c faith.
However, historians and theologians who study the religion's origins

believe that the devils and angels (daeva and yazads) which are a major
part of that faith actually are metamorphosed from deiês being ac^vely
worshiped in the region during Zoroaster's life^me. Note that the Farsi
are an Aryan race, invaders (or migrants, depending on whom you ask) who
came from the West. The Sumerians, and later Babylonians, were mostly of
stock similar to the Indian and Chinese. Not only did the Babylonians
and Farsi follow dierent pantheons, but the Babylonians considered
their Farsi overlords to be uncivilized barbarians for centuries.

Gygax, btw, really did his homework here. The notes on Farzan court
intrigues menôn a secret Palu-Ea facôn seeking war between Farz and
Sindraj to weaken the padishah and enable a revolt. Palu is a Babylonian
term for "Perfect Weapon." The Palu-Ea are an alliance (headed by
Babylon) which includes all members of the Babylonian Pantheon. Not
surprisingly, if Farz, by far the most powerful state in the Persian
pantheon, were to undergo a revoluôn which placed a Palu-Ea facôn
member on the throne, it would represent a major poli^cal and
theological shiv in the region. Old hatreds die hard, especially when
there is power to be gained, and on AErth, the Babylonian state is on the
rise again.

Oh wait, what was I typing about again? Oh yeah, Yazads and Daeva.
There is a great resource on the Net for informaôn concerning modern
Zoroastrianism. Check out the Avesta Web Page. Though I do not own a
copy of Deiês & Demigods, having never bought much EGS to begin
with(!), I don't think you will nd Ahura Mazda, Nairyosangha, Angra
Manyu, or any other Zoroastrian elements there.

Well, it's been fun, and good gaming!

--Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 00:56:36 -0500

At 04:15 PM 3/9/96 -0500, Tom Harrison wrote:
>Anyone who wants to check out a "non-stereotyped" assassin should check out
>Clive Barker's novel, Imajica, and the character, Pie o Pah. Denately not
>evil in most regards.

I would recommend Steven Brust's remarkable Vlad Taltos series... the main
character is an assassin, and so are several of the suppor^ng cast.

Take care,
Gary


=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 03:32:27 -0500

While we're naming assassin role models, lets not forget David Morrell's
novels, Brotherhood of the Rose and Fraternity of the Stone. While they
aren't fantasy, they certainly present characters which are _not_
cookie-cuker assassins.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 11:49:46 PST
Subject: Hey, Chris Barnes!
X-To: QMS-L@BROWNVM.brown.edu

I tried to send this to your e-mail address, but it was returned as undeliverable.

My apologies to the list; I didn't know any other way to get this to Chris, and
it's fairly ^mely. If any of you are interested in becoming QMS demo team members
or playtesters, please email me or Mike Hill <aspect@abervon.com> for guidelines.

Dave
-------------------------------------------------
On Sun, 10 Mar 96 11:36:33 PST Dave Newton wrote:
>>Experience points?.. nah just kidding. It will be good to have a look, it sounds a
>>likle like Cthulu (I suppose that will be the inevitable comparison) but dierent
>>enough to be in a sub-genre of its own. Big problem with Cthulu I think was there
>>was never going to be a happy ending, mind you the end of the world
>>doesn't sound too condusive to character development either..<grin>.
>
>I doubt it will be compared to Cthulhu, but maybe Kult. When Steve Jackson Games
>releases In Nomine, they will be compared to *us*.
>
>>Hopefully Rapture is more like the use of the nebulous enemy in Mythus yes?
>
>It can be played that way. It can also be played as man's immorality against his
>self.
>
>I've forwarded the addresses to Mike and William, and we'll try to get on this
>ASAP. If you are interested, you might be our rst UK demo team member. It
>would involve promo^ng our stu at convenôns through gaming and handing out
>material, and it would give you the opportunity to playtest for us.
>
>Thanks again,
>Dave>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 12:58:18 -0500
From: Wesley Miaw <Josuah@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Hey, Chris Barnes!

Hi, I just joined the list. This is the rst Dangerous Journeys e-mail I've
read, and I'm wondering what you are refering to by QMS.

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 13:00:54 -0500
Subject: Hello Everyone

Hello, my name is Wesley Miaw. I have all of the Mythos Gaming Books, at
least, the ones I know of so far: #1-4. I also have a couple of the Dangerous
Journeys journal publicaôns, the early ones star^ng with #1.
Unfortunately, all of my AD&D players thought this gaming system was too
dicult, which is maybe why it hasn't become very popular.
In response, I used some of the basics of Dangerous Journeys and AD&D 2nd
Ediôn to create my own gaming system, kind of a cross between them, and
denitely simplier, however I have not really playtested it before.
Anyway, hello to everyone.

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:49:28 -0500
Subject: Quesôns

Quesôn #1: Category 5 of the armor categories is trousers-- what are the
numbers or protecôn value for pierce, cut, etc..

Quesôn #2: MMM - I don't have any of the issues and I hear that they are
loaded with a lot of good informaôn--- Any bandits out there?

Quesôn #3: Once a cas^ng becomes a known cas^ng, can a prac^ôner
choose to unlearn it, to make room for a "cooler" cas^ng? ("cooler"- not
meaning an ice related cas^ng).
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 19:26:09 -0500
Subject: Antworten

Eins: The only ocial piece of armor that covers Category 5 is (I believe)
chausses, a sort of leather pants part. I don't have any historical
references but I think of them as sort of cowboy chaps.

Zwei: Sorry. All copies are now extremely rare. A friend has issues but I
have only copied some of the ar^cles. Now he has them in bags.

Drei: Yes. All the caster needs do is cozy up with his/her tomes and
re-order the list in any way. There is no ocal informaôn on how this is
done, so I just force the HPs to do it in down^me between adventures (like
boning up on calculus again or something).

DON
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:46:41 -0500

I can't really answer quesôns 1 or 2 o the top of my head, but as for no.
2: MMM - I don't have any of the issues and I hear that they are loaded with
a lot of good informaôn--- Any bandits out there?

Are you refering to the DJ Journal mags? They are a real treat, although I
only have about the rst 3 or 5 issues. Each one comes with a new adventure,
and might contain expansion rules, such as combining skills to acheive a
higher skill prociency. There is also a Q/A secôn, I believe. More also,
mine are hidden away right now.
Bandits?

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 01:27:55 -0500

>Are you refering to the DJ Journal mags? They are a real treat, although I
>only have about the rst 3 or 5 issues. Each one comes with a new
>adventure,
>and might contain expansion rules, such as combining skills to acheive a
>higher skill prociency. There is also a Q/A secôn, I believe. More also,
>mine are hidden away right now.
> Bandits?
>
>-Josuah

No, he is referring to the Mythus Masters Magazine, a fanzine put out
directly by Gygax & friends to support Mythus. It was mail-order only and
never sold at gaming stores. When the TSR lawsuit was sekled, all exis^ng
copies were sent to TSR where, so I hear, they were destroyed. As a result,
exis^ng copies are rare.

Since TSR owns the rights to Mythus, akemp^ng to publish copyrighted
informaôn belonging to them brings severe civil and criminal penalês. Of
course, bandits do not fear such strictures, hence the use of the word in the
original poster's comments.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 02:04:51 -0500
Subject: Portland, OR?

Hello All,
I've just moved to Portland, OR and I'm wondering if any of you
live/play in the area. Drop me a line!

Thank you,

Jason
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 11:45:39 -0500

>>Quesôn #1: Category 5 of the armor categories is trousers-- what >>are
the numbers or protecôn value for pierce, cut, etc..

I believe that this chart was designed primarily to illustrate the areas of
protecôn and what they protected. I wouldn't consider a pair of pants
(trousers) actual armor, though you may give it a single point of protecôn
her or there.

>>Quesôn #2: MMM - I don't have any of the issues and I hear that >>they
are loaded with a lot of good informaôn--- Any bandits out there?

I have internet copies of the rst 5 MMMs, but refuse to even consider
pira^ng the informaôn un^l someone gets me a copy of 6, mainly so I can
see what happens to him rst. ;)

>>Quesôn #3: Once a cas^ng becomes a known cas^ng, can a >>prac^ôner
choose to unlearn it, to make room for a "cooler" cas^ng? ("cooler"- >>not
meaning an ice related cas^ng).

Yes, but this requires some ^me and study, and should not be allowed at a
whim. Most Prac^ôners are disciplined sorts, as magick in Mythus is very
studious and not free form at all (however that may change when someone
designs good free-form cas^ng rules). So in the end, this rule is really up
to the JM.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 11:32:23 -0700
From: Doyce Testerman <Bear@DIMENSIONAL.COM>

At 11:45 AM 3/14/96 -0500, you wrote:

>>>Quesôn #2: MMM - I don't have any of the issues and I hear that >>they
>are loaded with a lot of good informaôn--- Any bandits out there?
>
>I have internet copies of the rst 5 MMMs, but refuse to even consider
>pira^ng the informaôn un^l someone gets me a copy of 6, mainly so I can
>see what happens to him rst. ;)

I have all 6 of the issues... but not in electronic format, which i'd really
love, since I carry alot of my gaming info around with me on disk. I wonder,
since I did buy the issues and do own them... if there's any thing wrong
with someone who has the electronic version to send em to me, since I
already paid for the rights to own em?

Where's my Law K/S when I need it? :)

___
_ C ..\__
_/ \ ___| oo\ _
| \_/\/___ _____/_/ \_
| |_) | __|/` _ \| \_/ \
| _ <| _>| /_\ | | ) )
| |_) | \| ` ' | \
__|____/|___|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
hkp://www.dimensional.com/~bear/
Doyce Testerman
"Suppose you were a Congressmen, and suppose you were an idiot,
but I repeat myself." -- Mark Twain
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 14:46:35 -0500

Thanks, I didn't know about the Mythus Masters Magazine.

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 14:47:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Portland, OR?

Sorry, I'm in Albany, NY, and don't have anyone to play with. :(

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 16:57:33 -0500
From: Sean K Reynolds <TSRInc@AOL.COM>

>I have all 6 of the issues... but not in electronic format, which i'd really
>love, since I carry alot of my gaming info around with me on disk. I wonder,
>since I did buy the issues and do own them... if there's any thing wrong
>with someone who has the electronic version to send em to me, since I
>already paid for the rights to own em?

Technically, it is s^ll illegal to send a copy of something copyrighted
to someone, even if the recipient already has one of the originals.
However, if they emailed it to you, who would know? Just the sender
and the receiver.

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 01:23:48 -0500

Subject: Re: Quesôns (AHA!!!)

I knew there had to be TSR reps creeping around in the woodwork. What's up,
Sean? I thought you only hung out in the AOL boards.

See ya,
Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 09:02:34 +0100
From: FRANCO GRACIA ANDRES <andres.franco@MEST.UNIZAR.ES>
Subject: SIGNOFF

SINGOFF
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 11:00:56 +0100
Subject: To Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator

Dear Sean,

At 16:57 14-03-96 -0500, you responded to a message in this group.

I've got some quesôns for you:

1) Since you apparently have joined the list some ^me ago, is this
purely professional interest or do you play, c.q. have you played, Mythus
yourself?

2) May we interpret your presence on the list as ocial interest of
TSR in Mythus? Any new developments you can reveal or hint at?

3) Does our leker-wri^ng campaign to TSR have any impact? Have the
lekers been noted, or haven't you heard anything about them?

4) Lately, there has been a discussion here on how to make TSR realize
what a great game system Dangerous Journeys is and to make TSR realize that
no small group of gamers is interested in a more exible and realis^c game
system than AD&D. In your professional and/or private opinion, what can we
do to make TSR publicly show interest in Dangerous Journeys?

5) What are the characteris^cs that TSR sees as primary features and
characteris^cs of their products, in terms of game contents, market size,
marketability, protability, what ever you can think of more? Has the
potenâl of Mythus/Dangerous Journeys ever been objec^vely examined in
these terms? (From hearsay, I've got the impression that Dangerous Journeys
is a bit sensi^ve to some people in TSR.)

Bye,

Harold Stringer,
Mythus Addict

_____________________________________________________________________

Work: Private:
1315 KT Almere Tel/Fax +31 - (0)36 53 64 798
The Netherlands
Tel +31 - (0)36 53 43 445
Fax +31 - (0)36 53 47 265


_____________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 08:18:47 -0700
From: Doyce Testerman <Bear@DIMENSIONAL.COM>
Subject: Re: Quesôns (AHA!!!)

At 01:23 AM 3/15/96 -0500, you wrote:
>I knew there had to be TSR reps creeping around in the woodwork.

Sheesh guys, they aren't lice or termites :) put a couple smilies up. :)

Well, most of em aren't. ;)
___
_ C ..\__
_/ \ ___| oo\ _
| \_/\/___ _____/_/ \_
| |_) | __|/` _ \| \_/ \
| _ <| _>| /_\ | | ) )
| |_) | \| ` ' | \
__|____/|___|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
"Suppose you were a Congressmen, and suppose you were an idiot,
but I repeat myself." -- Mark Twain
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:22:22 -0500

On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, Sean K Reynolds wrote:

[snip]
> Technically, it is s^ll illegal to send a copy of something copyrighted
> to someone, even if the recipient already has one of the originals.
> However, if they emailed it to you, who would know? Just the sender
> and the receiver.
Technically speaking, it is possible that anyone could know. What many
people do not realize when they use email or other electronic informaôn
services is that it is not a secure channel. Unlike snail mail, there
are not the kind of legal restricôns on reading other people's email or
other electronic correspondence. Part of the reason for this is that
there are a number of ways to break into someone's email without it being
traceable (among them cracking their account). Also, system
administrators (Superusers) have access to *everything* on a system, and
they do use it! It is true that most of them do not have the ^me to be
Internet police, they do commonly perform periodic checks of user email,
so if you do choose to be a bandit, realize the risk that you are taking.

Then again, if the online rep. of the company which owns the copyright on
given material is telling you, "Who's to know." it might be safer than
you would normally expect. ;-)

For those who are interested, HP journals which will give perspec^ve
detail on the latest acôns of the mad assassin of Grandmark are coming
soon!

Happy gaming!
-- Ryan
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 14:24:51 -0500
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.91.960315115842.9792A-100000@blackbird.birds.wm.edu>
from "Snead Ryan W" at Mar 15, 96 12:22:22 pm

>
> people do not realize when they use email or other electronic informaôn
> services is that it is not a secure channel. Unlike snail mail, there
> are not the kind of legal restricôns on reading other people's email or
> other electronic correspondence. Part of the reason for this is that
> there are a number of ways to break into someone's email without it being
> traceable (among them cracking their account). Also, system
> administrators (Superusers) have access to *everything* on a system, and
> they do use it! It is true that most of them do not have the ^me to be
> Internet police, they do commonly perform periodic checks of user email,
> so if you do choose to be a bandit, realize the risk that you are taking.

Of course, you can always use PGP if you want to...

- Muten Roshi (Andy Ehlert)
President of The Science, Fact, Ficôn, and Fantasy Gaming Club
Organizer: U of M Dearborn Anime Showings On irc: M_Roshi
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 15:26:51 -0500
Subject: Re: MYTHUS: Quesôns/Sean Reynolds

>I knew there had to be TSR reps creeping around in the woodwork.
>What's up, Sean? I thought you only hung out in the AOL boards.

Hey, I'm everywhere, man, like oxygen....

>1) Since you apparently have joined the list some ^me ago, is this
>purely professional interest or do you play, c.q. have you played, Mythus
>yourself?

Actually, my RPG experience outside of AD&D is very limited (T&T,
Traveller, Star Fronêrs, & MSH about sums it up). I have never
played Mythus (although I have heard a lot about it from those who
do, and have seen the products on the shelves in the Mail Order
Hobby Shop when it was s^ll open).

FYI, yes, I am a gamer, and have been one since about 1980 or so.
While I don't normally have ^me to play in-person (and in fact,
with the excepôn of a single playtest session last year, I haven't
been in a face-to-face RPG session in about 5 years), I am playing
in 3 PBEM's, lurking in another, and running one of my own.

>2) May we interpret your presence on the list as ocial interest of
>TSR in Mythus? Any new developments you can reveal or hint at?

Actually, one of the Mythus-L listmembers (who is also on two of the
other mailing lists I'm on) suggested that I sign on here because there
was some serious TSR-bashing going on, and there was nobody from
TSR's side to answer any quesôns.

>3) Does our leker-wri^ng campaign to TSR have any impact? Have the
>lekers been noted, or haven't you heard anything about them?

I actually haven't heard anything about them, but then again I
believe you are mailing them to my boss, who doesn't oven speak to
me (which is good, as he really doesn't understand what I do, and I
get more work done when he's not trying to tell me how to do my job).

>4) Lately, there has been a discussion here on how to make TSR realize
>what a great game system Dangerous Journeys is and to make TSR realize that
>no small group of gamers is interested in a more exible and realis^c game
>system than AD&D. In your professional and/or private opinion, what can we
>do to make TSR publicly show interest in Dangerous Journeys?

Aver discussing it with the above listmember that I menôned
(who shall remain nameless for the ^me being ;)), the groundwork
for the leker campaign started. Write lekers. Lots of lekers.
Include pictures of your gaming group siing around a table, playing
Mythus. Include pictures of the stacks of adventures & etc. that
you've wriken to go with Mythus. Talk about how much money you'd
spend on Mythus. Talk abou how you'd spend rent/food/beer money to
get Mythus products instead. Get your gaming clubs to write
(as individuals). Get their fellow gamers to write. Talk it up at
convenôns. Get them to write. Flood my boss with mail (he
doesn't really work, anyway, he's a VP!). Lorraine, too.
Oh, and Will Martens (our VP of Marke^ng), too.

>5) What are the characteris^cs that TSR sees as primary features and
>characteris^cs of their products, in terms of game contents, market size,
>marketability, protability, what ever you can think of more?

Um, well, I'm not really in the marke^ng department, so I'm not sure how
much help I'll be. Plus, I'm not en^rely sure what your exact meaning
is by some of these words. Let's see:
contents: a solid game framework, of course
market size: depends on what you're aiming for ... what is
the size of the market of the non-teen scene?
I know that there is a trend for people to
stop gaming aver a certain age/mindset
marketability: ???
protability: making a prot is good; however, note that
what small RPG companies consider astounding prots
are usually considered minor by TSR ... TSR tends
to make a lot of prot, and so things that are
protable are oven dropped in favor of things

that are astoundingly protable (i.e., the lines
that TSR drops are oven enough to support
a smaller co. for several years)

Idea: people are always sugges^ng that there should be an "adult" game
(i.e., not intended for a teen audience) from TSR ... in those lekers,
why not suggest that Mythus be that game?

>Has the
>potenâl of Mythus/Dangerous Journeys ever been objec^vely examined in
>these terms? (From hearsay, I've got the impression that Dangerous Journeys
>is a bit sensi^ve to some people in TSR.)

I think the main downer on Mythus isn't really from a majority of the
employees, it's from Lorraine, and people don't want to get her mad.
Plus, there was so much weird stu going on with the lawsuit that
people just don't want to get caught up in it.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:48:04 -0800
Subject: SINGOFF
In-Reply-To: <960315.090234.75850@mest.unizar.es>

On Fri, 15 Mar 1996, FRANCO GRACIA ANDRES wrote:

> SINGOFF
>

"O SOLE MIOOOOOOOO!" -- what I want to know is who will judge this event?

Okay, okay, sorry. I couldn't resist!

On a more Mythus related subject, how many of you have run actual
Mythus-Prime games? Or is everybody a dyed-in-the-wool Advanced JM?

Harold
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 16:13:18 -0500
Subject: Mythus Prime (was Re: SINGOFF)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.88.9603151242.A6481-0100000@svpal>

On Fri, 15 Mar 1996, Harold Ogle wrote:

> On Fri, 15 Mar 1996, FRANCO GRACIA ANDRES wrote:
> > SINGOFF
>
> "O SOLE MIOOOOOOOO!" -- what I want to know is who will judge this event?

Had to plug my ears, dear chap. You ubbed that K/S roll rather badly ;-)

> On a more Mythus related subject, how many of you have run actual
> Mythus-Prime games? Or is everybody a dyed-in-the-wool Advanced JM?

ME! Several ^mes. I ran a short series of Mythus Prime games set in
AEgypt when I was familiarizing myself (and my group) with the overall
rules structure. It was followed by an eight-month Advanced game, a
couple of Prime-based BUGHUNTERS games (heh heh :-) ), a mangled version
of Prime, and then the current, year-old (with a summer/fall hiatus)
Advanced game.

I have also run several pick-up games as memory serves, all Prime. Prime
is rather easy to do a quick game in.

Er, I guess I run both. My steadfast, con^nuing campaign is Advanced.
The players prefer it, and they have spoken :-) Various 'one-shot' and
'pick-up' games, typically with players other than my regulars, are
almost invariably Prime.

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 16:11:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Quesôns/copyright/email

>Technically speaking, it is possible that anyone could know.
>What many people do not realize when they use email or other
>electronic informaôn services is that it is not a secure channel.

True ... that's why geing a hold of something like PGP is always
a good idea if you are concerned with email privacy.

>Then again, if the online rep. of the company which owns the copyright on
>given material is telling you, "Who's to know." it might be safer than
>you would normally expect. ;-)

Hey, you didn't hear that from me!!! :)
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 20:46:14 -0500
Subject: Re: SINGOFF

Harold wrote:

>>On a more Mythus related subject, how many of you have run actual
Mythus-Prime games? Or is everybody a dyed-in-the-wool Advanced JM?<<

The last campaign I ran was using heavily modied Mythus Prime rules, which
I fondly called "Intermediate Mythus." The guys in the group had all tried
Mythus before and were not keen at all at the thought of advanced Mythus. I
was mostly to blame for that - it was pre-MMM and before I understood
everything clearly.

Now, I'm upda^ng that same campaign seing for Advanced Mythus. However, I
plan to keep MP around for beginner stu. It's a perfect way to get new
players on to certain concepts that Mythus uses w/o giving them way to much
to chew at once. I'm considering adap^ng _Keep on the Borderlands_ to Prime
for just such an occassion. :)
Other than that, I plan to use Adv. Mythus.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 22:57:14 -0800

At 03:26 PM 3/15/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>I knew there had to be TSR reps creeping around in the woodwork.
>>What's up, Sean? I thought you only hung out in the AOL boards.
>
>Hey, I'm everywhere, man, like oxygen....
>
>>1) Since you apparently have joined the list some ^me ago, is this
>>purely professional interest or do you play, c.q. have you played, Mythus
>>yourself?
>
>Actually, my RPG experience outside of AD&D is very limited (T&T,
>Traveller, Star Fronêrs, & MSH about sums it up). I have never
>played Mythus (although I have heard a lot about it from those who
>do, and have seen the products on the shelves in the Mail Order
>Hobby Shop when it was s^ll open).
>
>FYI, yes, I am a gamer, and have been one since about 1980 or so.
>While I don't normally have ^me to play in-person (and in fact,
>with the excepôn of a single playtest session last year, I haven't
>been in a face-to-face RPG session in about 5 years), I am playing
>in 3 PBEM's, lurking in another, and running one of my own.
>
>>2) May we interpret your presence on the list as ocial interest of
>>TSR in Mythus? Any new developments you can reveal or hint at?
>
>Actually, one of the Mythus-L listmembers (who is also on two of the
>other mailing lists I'm on)

Duh, Gee, I wonder who that could have been.
(in my best churchlady voice)
Could it beeee........SATAN???

suggested that I sign on here because there
>was some serious TSR-bashing going on,

T$R bashing on the internet?? No. Really? I'm shocked!

and there was nobody from
>TSR's side to answer any quesôns.

Well guys, looks like Sean Reynolds is now a member of this list.

Sean, let me introduce you to things here.
To some people on the net, Tac^cal Studies Rules, or rather TSR, since TSR
doesn't really stand for anything anymore, is crea^vely known as T$R, or
T-dollarsign-R, indica^ng greed or great wealth or something.
Here, we dispense with this en^rely.

We call TSR EGS, or the Evil Gaming System.

Upon reading this, you may sit back and start laughing, but I can assure you
we think this is very unfunny.
If there is one place on the net where EGS is not welcome, it is here.

Here are some simple facts.

1)Gygax lev TSR aver a divorce seklement in which an embikered ex-wife
won control of half of his creaôn in a divorce seklement.

2)Later, geing on with life, he(I am leaving out the hard work of others
here, and I apologize) wrote Unhallowed, and converted it to Mythus because
of the popularity of the fantasy mileux.

3)TSR ran DJ into the ground by relentless li^gaôn in an akempt to

destroy what Gygax created anew. TSR had no rights to the game, or
foundaôn for its numerous accusaôns. They(that is, you) destroyed the
future of DJ out of maliciousness.

Now people here have dierent ways of handling this.

Some, to maintain a tranquil state of mind, forgo even menôning EGS.

Some(maybe only me)(but I doubt it) play Gygax era TSR stu only and DJ.
(I also use new stu released in Pendragon and Merp if ideas run short.
Most importantly, we adapt and create new material)

Some few promiscuous users of game systems have no compuncôn whatsoever
about having dealings with EGS.

Now, people can complain, that I(we) bash EGS here, but what it really
consists of is reiteraôn of these simple facts, with considerable
emoônal tone injected besides.

These facts are indisputable, and the way I(we) feel will not change, unless
EGS reverses what it did, and oers res^tuôn for the damage it has done.
Since I know I have a beker chance of becoming president of EGS than this
ever happening, I think its safe to say that we hate EGS, and nothing will
change that, no maker how nice and good a person you are, and no maker
what you do. Personally, believe it or not, I like you, but that doesn't
change the fact that you represent EGS, whom I(we) will always hate.

For the most part, we try to avoid menôning EGS here, as we like and want
it to be a happy place. Unfortunately, some members recently proposed that
we sell out to EGS and TBL(That Bitch Lorraine) and try to get them to
publish Gary and Dave's work, which sent me on a rampage.

I don't doubt that this latest incident is what precipitated your arrival
here, so I'll make a deal with you.
I will never again type a disparaging word about EGS, if you go away
permanently.

This is one place where I always felt freedom from what EGS did, and where I
could communicate with likeminded individuals and share informaôn. If
there is one place where EGS's presence is more unwelcome, I don't know
where it is.
This is nothing personal against you, (although my hatred of EGS is quite
personal) but EGS doesn't belong here.

I have become ukerly sick of this subject, and I want it to go away.
Unfortunately, as long as EGS is here, I will not be happy here.

Obviously, we can't kick you o, and I don't want to kick you o, I want
you to understand what you are to us, and realize that it will seriously
taint the quality(or lack thereof ;) ) of discourse we enjoy(wallow in ;) ;) ).

I am sorry to be so blunt and unkind, but Please Leave.

Mike

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 04:30:01 -0500

I can see the ames coming now. . .

I hate T$R, too, but I don't want to exclude Sean Reynolds even if he does
work for T$R. Like it or not, the Internet is a place for free expression,
and we should welcome all input. Just leave your BS lters in place so when
someone says, "We just wanted to protect our property" or "We really care
about the mature gamers," when in fact all they want to do is steal our ideas
for whatever crap game they are currently throwing together, you won't get
fooled again (sorry, Pete Townsend). We can't stop that and s^ll have
freedom of expression, and that is why we are here, aver all, to share our
love of this wonderful game.

I say, leave him alone, but take what he says with a pillar or two of salt.
Aver all, he didn't lurk along and pretend not to be here; give the man
credit for that. But keep in mind who he works for and why he was told to
join the list.

OK, I'm sure there won't be any other comments (HAH!) but let's try to stay
focused on Mythus itself, OK?

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 09:06:25 -0500
Subject: Archives and FreeForm

I just lost all my messages!! Where can I get the message archives for the
last month or so?

Next quesôn, There has been some stu on here about freeform spellcas^ng
?(the lack of which is only thing that makes me less than esta^c about
Mythus) Anyone who is interested in working on this can send me some
e-mail. Maybe we can get it done for the next D.I.

Later,
Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:11:31 -0700
In-Reply-To: <199603170657.WAA69896@rho.ben2.ucla.edu> from "Chris Calvert" at
Mar 16, 96 10:57:14 pm

> At 03:26 PM 3/15/96 -0500, you wrote:
> Here are some simple facts.

Be careful when you say that. Your post contains a bit of disinformaôn.

> 1)Gygax lev TSR aver a divorce seklement in which an embikered ex-wife
> won control of half of his creaôn in a divorce seklement.

Actually, the ex won half of *his* share in T$R (there were other holders,
including the Blume (sp?) brothers). Note that this didn't precipitate the
takeover directly-- what it did was drop him below the status of *majority*
shareholder. The other holders were now able to band together to remove him
as President (or Chairman, or whatever). The Blumes put their shares behind
the Buck Rogers-heiress Lorraine Williams, and I believe the ex-wife sold
them at *least* enough to put them over 50%.

There was also some thing about an agreement in the original corporate
papers which allowed Gary (or any holder) a month's worth of rst dibs on
sold shares; allegedly, the Williams facôn violated this in some way-- but
Wisconsin courts disagreed.

> 2)Later, geing on with life, he(I am leaving out the hard work of others
> here, and I apologize) wrote Unhallowed, and converted it to Mythus because
> of the popularity of the fantasy mileux.
>
> 3)TSR ran DJ into the ground by relentless li^gaôn in an akempt to
> destroy what Gygax created anew. TSR had no rights to the game, or
> foundaôn for its numerous accusaôns. They(that is, you) destroyed the
> future of DJ out of maliciousness.

This is about right, as far as I've seen. But Chris, man, you can't just
hammer on Sean because he works for the Dollar Sign Place. I mean, yeah,
he's the online rep, but T$Rs policies are not his decision.

If he con^nuously takes the T$R-apologist stance, and is considerably
vehement about it (not unlike some members of the list *already*), then
you've got a valid bitch. But so far, he seems to be preky in-support-of
our eorts in general.

You can slam T$R all you want (and anyone who's read my posts should know
that I'll probably *join* you), but don't equate the rep with the corp. At
least un^l he proves otherwise.

Aaron Brezenski

=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 13:32:41 -0500
From: Todd Banister <haakon@MINDSPRING.COM>

Below is a copy of the latest post.

These will be placed in the correct spots in two posts.

NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW
****************************************************************************
********
-Avalon HillSta^s Pro Football 1982 -(Raiders <SuperBowl>, 49er's <Montana>,
Redskins <Riggins>, Piksburg <Bradshaw>, Rams <Dickerson>,Charger
<Last year for the greatest oense ever!>
BID $1 m.gueneke@genie.com

-TSRAC6 Player Character Record Sheets '85 (GD)
8 of 16 character sheets remain. 8 of 8 spellbook checklists
(wizard,elf,cleric, druid) remain. ALL PHOTOCOPYABLE (I know it's not
a word).

D&D Set:1 Basic Rules '83 (VG No Dice included)

D&D Set 2: Expert Rulebook '83 (GD No Dice included)

D&D Set 3: Companion Rules '84 (VG)

Magic Encyclopedia (AD&D - 2nd Ed) Vol 2 of 2. '93 (VG)

Monstrous Compendium Vol 1 '89 (VG Binder ediôn)

Montrous Com. Appendix #5 Forgoken Realms. '90 (VG No cover)

X2 Castle Amber '81 (GD Holepunched)
BID $1 sammy@mindspring.com

********************************************************************************

-Avalon HillAdvance Squad Leader RuleBox '85 (GD)
Has some highlighted areas on pages and is worn
BID $7 sparrish@hpfcla.fc.hp.com

1830 The Game of Railroads and Robber Barons '86 (EX)
BID $10 dyer@uunet.uu.net

Sta^s Pro Basketball '87 (VG)

Panzer Blitz '81 (G)
BID $2 epass@nyx.net

Auto Racing '80 (G)

Hundred Days Bakles '83 (VG)
BID $6 rar+@pik.edu

AMBUSH (victory games) '83 (VG)
BID $5 ZPDROSTER@a1.trident.tec.sc.us

Guns of August '81 (G)
BID $10 spdennis@mail.usinternet.com

Sta^s Pro Baseball (Around 4 Dierent Seasons)
BID $8 TSICDT56@MU3.MILLERSV.EDU

-Fantasy Games UnlimitedVillains and Vigilantes DM Screen '81 (VG)
BID $3 darin@texoma.com

Villains and Vigilantes There's a crisis at Crusader Citadel '82 (VG)

Villains and Vigilantes RPG Book '82 (VG)

-FASARenegade Legion Centurion Blood and Steel '88 (Gd)

BID $3 tskirvin@arh0062.urh.uiuc.edu

ShadowRun 1st ed. '89 (VG)
BID $4 jbanagan@imcbbs.imcnet.net

MechWarrior RPG '86 (Gd)
BID $5 Euclid II@aol.com

BakleTech Box Set 2nd ed. '85
BID $5 s0195571@hawkmail.monmouth.edu

BakleTech Manual '87 (EX)

DropShips and Jumpships '88 (VG)
BID $20 as298@Cleveland.freenet.edu

BakleTech Tech Readout 3025 '86 (Gd)

BakleTech Tech Readout 3026 '87 (Pr)

BakleTech Mercenary's Handbook '87 (VG)

-Games WorkshopDark Future Box Set '88 (VG)
BID $9 duncan@poky.srv.net

Dark Future White Line Fever '88 Hole Punched (GD)

Dark Future Extra Tracks '88 (EX)

Warhammer 40K RuleBook Harbound '87 (Gd)
BID $15 jbryant@mainelink.net

Warhammer Siege '88 Hardbound (EX)
BID $15 louis@ansov.com

Adeptus Titanicus '88 Missing 1 Titan (GD)
BID $26 cail@moose.erie.net

Epic Eldar Legion '89 (EX)

Realm of Chaos '88 First Book HardBound (EX)

White Dwarf Mags all in good shape.(KILLER PAINTING IDEAS!)
***************************************************************************
WFB-Warhammer Fantasy Bakle; WFRP-Warhammer Fantasy RolePlay; 40K-Warhammer
40K;
AHQ-Advanced Hero Quest; BB-Blood Bowl; DF-Dark Future; ES-Epic Scale Stu;
AT-Adeptus Titanicus; SH-Space Hulk; ME-Mighty Empires; CF-Confrontaôn
ASC-Advanced Space Crusade
****************************************************************************
#103 (Realm of Chaos-Weapons, 40K-Vehichles, Warhammer-Orcs/Gob., Bloodbowl)
BID $2.50 louis@ansov.com

#104 (40K-Robots, Dark Future, BloodBowl, RealmofChaos)

#105 (40K-Harlequins&SpaceMarines,BloodBowl, WarhammerFantasyRolePlay)

#106 (40K-HarlequinsList, RealmOfChaos-Beastmen,DarkFuture,WFRP,BB)

#107 (WFB-Norse,WFRP,DF,40K-ChaosRenegades,BB)

#108 (DF,WFRP,WFB,AT-Pain^ng,40K-Chaplins&Commisars)

#109 (RealmOFChaos-Nurgl,Tzeentch,40K-ImperialGaurd list,40k-TerminatorArmor)

#111 (40K-SQUATS!-list,BB-Refs,AT-CloseCombat,WFRP)

#112 (40K-TERMINATORS!-list,WFRP,BB,DF,PARANOIA&40K RolePlay Scenario)

#113 (SpaceHulk, WFB-CollegesOfMagic, DungeonBowl(BB), Minature Mutaôns)

#114 (AT, WFB-Magic, 40K-GeneSteelers, SpaceHulk)
BID $2 2348@^gern.hsh.no

#115 (40K-Commisars, SpaceHulk,40K-GeneSteelers,SpaceMarine Preview)
BID $2 RichardCSHale@msn.com

#116 (ES-Damage System&Ork Gargants,40K-GeneStlr List,WFB-Dwark Ski Troops!!)

#117 (AT-LandingPods&DropShips, 40K-Wartrak&Whirlwind vehicles, WFB-famous

bakle)

#118 (WFRP(x2), BB-magic, 40k-vehicle, Ork Stu)

#121 (WFB-DarkElf List, AHQ, RealmOfChaos-Nurgle, Space Hulk)
BID $3 MARQUAJD@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu

#122 (RealmOfChaos-Tzeentch, BB, SH, 40K-Strategy/tac^cs, WFRP-adventure, AHQ)

#125 (WFRP-character ideas, AHQ-module, WFB-Chaos Minotaurs, ES-Imperial
Gaurd list,DF-campaign rules!)

#126 (WFRP-city, ES-Marines&stu, 40K-more Orks(Madboyz), ES-Eldar
Knights-rules&pain^ng guide!)

#127 (WFB-FAQs, ES-Squats!, 40K-Eldar Army List-Revised/All new!!!!)

#128 (ES-EpicOrc list, 40K-Vehicles <revised rules>, WFRP-Marienburg<city>)

#129 (40K-SpaceMarine update-ARMOR INFO!, 40K-Vehicles<cont frm 128>,
ORC-painbozy rules)

#131 (ES-RealOfChaos!-lists,info; ME-Wizards' Towers;
40K-GANGS!-info<yeeha>; Model Conversions)

#132 (CONFRONTATION-GANG WARFARE!; ADVANCED SPACE CRUSADE-Imperial Gaurd!;
40K-Baneblade vehicle)

#134 BID $2.50 louis@ansov.com
#135 BID $1 louis@ansov.com
#150 BID $2.50 louis@ansov.com
#181 BID $2.00 jgrace@TetraSov.com

No bids on:
#109, 113, 122, 142, 144, 153, 156

Blood Bowl Blister Pack Headspliker 8404 Unopened (EX)

BID $4 amw@eclipse.net


Blood Bowl Blister Pack Morg'n'Throg 8404 Unopened (EX)

Blood Bowl Blister Pack Mighty Zug 8401 Unopened (EX)


Blood Bowl Blister Pack Goblins 8402 Unopened (EX)


Blood Bowl Blister Pack Halings 8401 Unopened (EX)

-I.C.ECreatures & Treasures '85 (VG)
BID $2 surge@dilbert.cqs.washington.edu

Star Hero RPG '89 (VG)
BID $5 dragons@stm.atlan^c-line.fr

-Mayfair GamesCity State of the Invincible Overlord '87 (EX)
BID $7 eric155@ix.netcom.com

D.C. Heroes Box Set 2nd ed. Missing Char Cards '89 (VG)
BID $6 tdragons@stm.atlan^c-line.fr

D.C. Heroes Watchmen Module '87 (EX)

D.C. Heroes Stangers in Paradise Module '88 (EX)
BID $2 Reaper

D.C. Heroes Rigged Results Module '87 (EX)

-R. Talsorian GamesCyberpunk '88 1st ed. (EX)
BID $4 : info1455@a^la.dcs.eup.uva.es

-Steve Jackson GamesGURPS Space '93 (EX)
BID $12 HannaSmith@aol.com

GURPS Magic '89 (VG)

GURPS Mage the Ascension '94 (EX)

-The Emperor's PressEmpire (Napoleon Minis) '90 (EX)
BID $5 d.hunter7@genie.com

-TSRAl-Qudim '92 Sovcover Sourcebook (EX)

B1-9 In search of Adventure '87 (VG)
BID $30 marler@husc.harvard.edu

DMGR1 Campaign Sourcebook and Catacomb Guide '90 (EX)

DMGR5 Crea^ve Campaigning '93 (EX)

DragonLance Time of the Dragon '89 (VG)

DLA1 Dragon Dawn '90 (EX)

DLS2 DragonLance Tree Lords '91 (EX)

Forgoken Realms Atlas '90 (EX)

Forgoken Realms Campaign Set '87 (VG)

Forgoken Realms Ruins of the Undermountain II '94 (EX)
BID $10 rick@rvusa.com

WGR2 Greyhawk Adventures Treasures of Greyhawk '92 (EX)
BID $7 RichBan@aol.com

GAZ1 The Grand Duchy of Karameikos '87 (VG)
BID $8 mjantz@cpnet.net

GAZ9 The Minrothad Guilds '88 (VG)
BID $10 sowder@uis.edu

Hordes Campaign Seing '90 (VG)

M1 Into the Maelstorm '85 (Pr)

PC4 Creature Crucible Night Howlers '92 (EX)

Star Fronêrs Alpha Dawn '82 (Gd)
BID $5 bnewman@3rdplanet.com

Star Fronêrs Knight Hawks '83 (Gd)
BID $3 c604016@mizzou1.missouri.edu

Spell Jammer Box Set '89 (VG)

-West End GamesGalaxy Guide 4 Alien Races '89 (VG)

Galaxy Guide 6 Tramp Freighters '90 (EX)
BID $3 info1455@a^la.dcs.eup.uva.es

Planets of the Galaxy Vol. 1 '91 (EX)

Star Wars Adventure Journal #1

BID $1 koguk@colorado.edu

-White WolfWerewolf The Apocalypse 2nd ed. '94 Hardbound (EX)
BID $14 Ward_L_Bowman@ccmail.ed.ray.com

Under a Blood Red Moon '93 (EX)

Vampire the Masquerade 2nd ed. '92 (EX)
BID $7 phred@icon-stl.net

Chicago by Night '93 (EX)

The Players guide to the Sabbat '92 (EX)
BID $5 kennes2@rpi.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 13:42:14 -0500

(or is it Chris) wrote:

(An awful lot of stu to Sean Renyolds which is deleted here).

Guys, come on. I'm sure Sean is aware of much of the true facts as to EGG's
departure from TSR. If he didn't hear it at work, I'm certain he got a fair
share of it from the Greyhawk AOL board.

Second, while we like to avoid discussion of the EGS here, much like we would
a skunk in love, Sean is completely welcome IMHO. He deserves to be a member
of this list as much as any of us. Hell, I wish we had 20 TSR designers on
this list. Maybe then we could crack some sense into Lorraine Cunningham's
skull.

Unfortunately, Mike is completely and hopelessly biker about the whole
thing. Hey, I am too, to some extent. However, just because some guy works
for TSR, doesn't mean we should kick him out. The next thing you know, Jesse
will have papers served to him over his Dangerous Ideas.

I personally invite Sean to stay. I suggest he get involved with one of the
Mythus PBeM games going on. I invite him to check out Mythus - don't believe
the facist hype you hear from certain co-workers. I think it would be the
greatest irony if there were actually people at TSR who liked Mythus, and DJ.
Maybe then we'd have a bit more co-operaôn in the way of geing things like the lost annuals of MMM.

Mike, put away your bikerness for one second. If you honestly think, or any
of these people on the board, that TSR will eventually revive Mythus, I can
only shake my head. Your game is safe folks. Its siing on your shelves
where the KG...er, sorry, TSR can never touch it. It lives with us. All we
have to do is wait out the seven years and buy it up.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:04:48 -0500

On Sat, 16 Mar 1996, Chris Calvert wrote:

> At 03:26 PM 3/15/96 -0500, you wrote:
[snip]

> Well guys, looks like Sean Reynolds is now a member of this list.
And Welcome to him! If he can learn something about the system or
roleplaying in general, more power to him. Even though he is on the list
only as a TSR, Inc. representa^ve, I do not feel such grand hatred for a
company which has nothing to hate. It is a business, not a tentacle of the
Accursed! (Wait. Sean, your company isn't a tentacle of the Accursed, is
it?)
I nd it highly akering that SOMEONE in that company thinks it
is worthwhile to pay akenôn to the persistent yammerings of a small
yet avid (and some^mes rabid) group of mostly collegate and older gamers
who fana^cally support a gaming system which his company has no plans to ever
support again. Consider the market history. Never has a gaming system
been resurrected by a company based upon feedback from the customers.
Never. And just in case you didn't hear me the rst two ^mes, never.
Were I in his shoes, I would do what any sensible company man would
do. Ignore the whiners un^l they shut up or die o. I see no reason for
Sean to waste his valuable ^me (or his company's ^me) listening to
(maybe) thirty-ve ac^ve list members plus lurkers talk about a system
which his company does not support. He would serve his ^me as well
listening to the trac on the QMS list as here, perhaps beker because
at least by reading the QMS list, he would be keeping tabs on one of his
company's compe^tors.

> Sean, let me introduce you to things here.
> To some people on the net, Tac^cal Studies Rules, or rather TSR, since TSR
Is that what the acronym meant. I always wondered. See, I've never bought
a product sold by TSR, Inc. b/c I tried AD&D a few ^mes, and I didn't
understand the system very well, nor did I like the rules. But that's
another maker.

> We call TSR EGS, or the Evil Gaming System.
Actually, EGS means to me Ex-Gygax System. I don't like insul^ng a
system just because *I* don't like it. Besides, calling it evil makes me
feel a likle bit too much like a BADD ( Bothered About Dungeons &
Dragons (tm TSR, Inc.) ) member.

> If there is one place on the net where EGS is not welcome, it is here.
Actually, I would love to see more EGS players here. It would give us
the chance to evangelize the great unwashed populace! ;-)

> Here are some simple facts.
>
[snip]
I deleted some ancient history here. I will believe that it is possible that
Lorraine pushed for this lawsuit out of malicious intent towards her
ex-husband. However, I nd it a likle to soap-opera-ey (is that a word?)
to believe that she single-handedly caused TSR, Inc. to bring up the
lawsuit. I nd it FAR more believable that Gary Gygax was considered to
be a real threat to AD&D(tm, TSR, Inc.)'s market share due to his name
recongniôn and the possibility that he could have done for Dangerous
Journeys what he did for AD&D(tm, TSR, Inc.). It made good business
sense to stop him before he got any real momentum. Was that a dirty
trick? Maybe. Did they have the right to do it. Probably not, but
we'll never know for certain. Does it really maker to TSR, Inc.? Not
anymore, really because business is just business.

> Now people here have dierent ways of handling this.
>
[snip, the way we handle the issue of TSR, Inc.]
>
> Now, people can complain, that I(we) bash EGS here, but what it really
> consists of is reiteraôn of these simple facts, with considerable
> emoônal tone injected besides.
Possibly. Personally, I have never heard anything more conclusive than
hearsay involving the reasons behind the TSR, Inc. vs. Gary Gygax, Omega
Helios Ltd., & GDW (hope I didn't miss any defendants) lawsuit.
Furthermore, I would be very surprised to hear anything more conclusive
than that b/c it is history to all the parês who were directly
involved. The only people to whom it really makers are those customers
who con^nue to live on the dried out husk of Mythus and are hurt by the
con^nued lack of support for the Dangerous Journeys line.

> These facts are indisputable, and the way I(we) feel will not change, unless
> EGS reverses what it did, and oers res^tuôn for the damage it has done.
From what I understand, TSR, Inc. did give the involved parês an
undisclosed sum of money in exchange for sekling the lawsuit. What
manner of res^tuôn did you have in mind? The only thing I can think
of would be a refund check for the remainder of customer subscripôns to
MMM and Journey's Magazines. As for republishing Dangerous Journeys,
that's a decision that we (the customers) must convince them (TSR, Inc.)
makes good business sense.

> Since I know I have a beker chance of becoming president of EGS than this
> ever happening, I think its safe to say that we hate EGS, and nothing will
Your condence in your (our) own abiliês is profoundly lacking. Might I
suggest taking some courses in building self-esteem? Furthermore, by
con^nually trying to infect others with your vitrolic oratory, I think
you do much more to harm our common cause than to further it.

[snip, more venomous rhetoric.]

> This is nothing personal against you, (although my hatred of EGS is quite
> personal) but EGS doesn't belong here.
You are right. A discussion of AD&D (tm, TSR, Inc) would be highly o
topic. A representa^ve of TSR, Inc., the owner of the Dangerous
Journeys gaming system, has taken an interest in our discussion, and I
suggest that we show him the courtesy and consideraôn we would give to
anyone else who showed an interest in our likle system. To do otherwise
would be juvenile and betray the maturity which we claim to be the
hallmark of Mythus players everywhere.

Rather than being rude and screaming for Sean to leave, I would encourage
him to give Mythus a try. Judge for yourself how much of it is a
'deriva^ve' work. Personally, I am halfway across the US. Otherwise, I
would invite him to come play with our gaming group. Heh, ever
vacaôn in Virginia, Sean?

--Ryan Snead
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:37:30 -0700
From: Doyce Testerman <bear@DIMENSIONAL.COM>

At 10:57 PM 3/16/96 -0800, you wrote:
>At 03:26 PM 3/15/96 -0500, you wrote:

>Sean, let me introduce you to things here.

Neighbor, you don't speak for me, and as near as I have ever been able to
tell, everyone here can speak for themselves just ne.

>we think this is very unfunny.

I think this diatribe is unfunny, as well.

>These facts are indisputable, and the way I(we) feel will not change, unless

Who gave you the right to speak for the rest of us?
I may agree, I may disagree, but I can for damn sure speak for myself.

>This is one place where I always felt freedom from what EGS did, and where I
>could communicate with likeminded individuals and share informaôn. If
>there is one place where EGS's presence is more unwelcome, I don't know
>where it is.

Well, I don't recall any TSR reps on here ruining the conversaôn on
here... but this lovely post is doing a hell of a job of it... now who's
dirup^ng things?

>I have become ukerly sick of this subject, and I want it to go away.

Now there's something we agree on.

>I am sorry to be so blunt and unkind, but Please Leave.

See all the comments above, and add one about the fact this is an
unmoderated, open list.

I'd apologize on behalf of everyone, but I'm not in the habit of speaking
for everyone either.

Further, I won't respond to ames posted to me up on this list: if you
reply, and want a response, beker make it to private email... it's the only
way I can see of dragging this garbage o the list.
___
_ C ..\__
_/ \ ___| oo\ _
| \_/\/___ _____/_/ \_
| |_) | __|/` _ \| \_/ \
| _ <| _>| /_\ | | ) )
| |_) | \| ` ' | \
__|____/|___|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 17:32:42 EST
Subject: Mythus, TSR, and Sean Reynolds

From: Sean K Reynolds <TSRInc@aol.com>

>
>other mailing lists I'm on) suggested that I sign on here because there
>was some serious TSR-bashing going on, and there was nobody from

>Aver discussing it with the above listmember that I menôned
>(who shall remain nameless for the ^me being ;))

As most of you know, that's me, and proud of it :). Thanks,
Sean, for the iniâl anonimity.

>convenôns. Get them to write. Flood my boss with mail (he
>doesn't really work, anyway, he's a VP!). Lorraine, too.
>Oh, and Will Martens (our VP of Marke^ng), too.

And, for those who missed my iniâl post, that address is:

Mr. James Ward
TSR, Inc.

I presume, if you replace 'Mr. James Ward' with Will Martens
or Lorraine Williams, it'll get to them at TSR, too.

From: Donald Eccles <Darkman416@aol.com>

>I say, leave him alone, but take what he says with a pillar or two of salt.
>Aver all, he didn't lurk along and pretend not to be here; give the man
>credit for that. But keep in mind who he works for and why he was told to
>join the list.

Just to make my intenôns clear, I asked Sean to
par^cipate with the knowledge that he'd be able to respond to the
quesôns and concerns of the possibility of TSR publishing Mythus,
and deal with the rumors that are rolling around about who did what
to whom, etc, much more aptly than I would (his knowledge is a great
deal closer to the source than mine, obviously). I also feel that
if anyone involved with TSR gets on the list and sees for themselves
how enthusias^c Mythus players are about their favorite game
system, it'd be extremely benecial to seeing it publish (even if
it isn't some high paid VP). I didn't ask him to join up so that
TSR could spy on us, and if I thought that's what he'd do here, I
wouldn't have menôned anything to him. I've seen Sean operate on
ADND-L and, to some lesser extent, on GMAST-L, and I've found

nothing to suggest that he's trying to steal ideas from anyone.
One more thing. It seems that some list members are
over-personifying TSR. TSR is a coporaôn, with many dierent
people involved in any singular decision-making process, and many
others not involved in that process. Quite simply, it's ludicrous
to suggest that 'TSR hates Mythus'. Some people at TSR might hate
Mythus or EGG, but some probably don't. Some might have met and
even liked the guy. If we can get the support of those individuals
who do not have a grudge to bear against EGG, chances are, I
believe, that those individuals will see the potenâl for extreme
prot that Mythus has, and jump at the chance to publish it. Some
of you think this is a pipe-dream, and I understand your skep^cism
(I was just as violently vehemently against TSR when the suit was
going on as Chris is now, as some list members may recall). I
believe it will work, I know it _can_ work, and I'm going to do
everything I can to make certain it does. :)

Lucifer >:}

=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 21:00:53 -0600
From: John Schmidt <schmidtj@WIN.BRIGHT.NET>
Subject: op-Inves^gator

In hopes of s^mula^ng some idea exchanges I would like to oer some
interes^ng K/S bundles. My friends and I have been working on some to
ll out the HP contacts and proposing them as viable OP and HP(s). If you
have comments, please oer them. I regret to say I have not play tested
them all, but please try them and get back us on how they worked. Seeing
the Ocial MM Vocaôns are non existant, WE (my friends and I) would
hope these would be helpfull alterna^ves for someone looking for variety.

The Inves^gator

Vocaôn Trait SEC Range SEC at start
Inves^gator Physical 4-8 5

This Vocaôn is the answer to a super sleuth in the Mythus Campaign. This
person resorts to myriad abiliês in order to solve the crime and
prosecute to oenders. The role of this O.P. is very well dened and can
be used in a variety of situaôns from the bumbling detec^ve to the

greatly assis^ng private eye. The feasibility of H.P use is, of course,
dependent on the G.M., but with a total of 264 base steep it is not
unreasonable. This type of persona would be quite helpful, and I nd it
very adaptable to many situaôns. To summarize some of the ideas to give
this character life think of Sherlock Holmes, Columbo, The Hearts, Charlie
Chan, or Murder She Wrote just to name a few. The main modicaôn are
the addiôn of informaôn gathering spell cas^ng K/S areas of Divinaôn
and Fortune Telling. Although hard to imagine in the Earth genre, in the
=C6rth world these methods would be quite useful and accepted as part of a
means in an inves^gaôn.

K/S Base Steep Akribute
Criminology 20 MRCap
Surveillance/Security 16 PNCap
Police Work 16 AvePCap
Logic 16 MRCap
Law 16 AveMCap
Hun^ng/Tracking 12 PNCap
Criminal Ac^viês, Phy12 AvePCap
Espionage 12 AveMCap
Combat, Hand Weapon 12 AvePCap
Combat, H2H Non-Lethal 12 AvePCap
Street Wise 12 SPCap
Divinaôn 8 SPCap
=46ortune Telling 8 SPCap
Percepôn, Physical 8 MRCap
Escape 8 AvePCap
Survival 8 PMCap
Criminal Ac^viês, Mental 8 MMCap
Decepôn 8 MRCap
Current Events 8 AveMPow
Gambling 4 AveMCap
=46oreign Language 4 MMCap
=46oreign Language 4 MMCap
Inuence 4 MRCap
Biography/Genealogy 4 MMCap
Handicravs 4 PNCap
Tollerance 4 PNPow
Cultured Palate 4 PNCap

264 Total

As you can see this persona is adap^ve well to a variety of
situaôns. The steep total is just a bit higher than most because of the
many demands on this sort of persona and the great variety of trait scores
used.
Some suggested K/S addiôns might be:
Mental: Appraisal, History, Hypno^sm, Literature
Physical: Combat hand Weapons Missile, Combat H2H Lethal, First Aid,Travel,
Disguise
Spiritual: Alchemy, Impersonaôn, Buoonery, Magne^sm, Leadership

More to follow, if interested... they could be posted :) Cri^cism is
appreciated. :)

Thanks to those who host this list that we can share usefull ideas.:)

AJ (Marlynn be mercifull, I opened my mouth!)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:14:13 -0500
From: Wayne Westphalen <F8SWARNG1@AOL.COM>
Subject: New Guy

I just want to preface this message by leing you know that this is the
rst mailing list that I have subscribed to. Please, in light of that fact,
refrain from killing me if I do not use the proper protocals.

I'm really just tes^ng the waters here but I do have one quesôn to ask: Is
it possible to acquire informaôn on any beta realeses of other Dangerous
Journey's genres? Or...does anyone know of games like Unhallowed that were
slated for release but got placed in stasis when "the incident" occured.

Thank you,
Wayne
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 00:36:41 -0500

Mike-Chris Calvert symbiote... :)

Easy there trigger. :)

I made up the EGS name on a whim one night. You're right, it's Evil
Gaming System, but it just applies to AD&D, and not T$R in general.
While I agree with most of what you said, I don't mind Sean hanging out
here.

T$R, Marvel, and Micro$ov are all the same company, run by a
mul^naônal conglomerate bent on one-world government... :) (It is kind
of spooky how similar they are...)

Anyway, my re-naming of AD&D to EGS was just my point of view regarding
its value toward role-playing in general. I can't stand it. :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 00:42:33 -0500
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199603171842.NAA26300@emout05.mail.aol.com>

Ack!

> Unfortunately, Mike is completely and hopelessly biker about the whole
> thing. Hey, I am too, to some extent. However, just because some guy works
> for TSR, doesn't mean we should kick him out. The next thing you know, Jesse
> will have papers served to him over his Dangerous Ideas.

Yipe! Tom, don't give them any ideas! Oh crap they're at the...
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 00:48:34 -0500
Subject: #'s are up!

Hey gang!

Just to make a happy face... :)

The list is up to 215 members. Preky good, since when the game died
(err...was knocked into a coma. Must've gone past CL...) there were
about 110 or so.

Listen up. Send shit to T$R. All of you. Quit lurking.

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 22:56:29 -0700
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960318003407.25614A-100000@orichalc.acsu.bualo.edu>

On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Jesse wrote:

> Easy there trigger. :)
>
> I made up the EGS name on a whim one night. You're right, it's Evil
> Gaming System, but it just applies to AD&D, and not T$R in general.
> While I agree with most of what you said, I don't mind Sean hanging out
> here.

Funny. I think it would be beker as "Enemy Gaming System".
Just because the company is opposed to us doesn't make them evil.

>
> T$R, Marvel, and Micro$ov are all the same company, run by a
> mul^naônal conglomerate bent on one-world government... :) (It is kind
> of spooky how similar they are...)
>
You forgot to menôn Disney and MacDonalds.

Chris Davies.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 01:49:28 -0500
Subject: Re: #'s are up!

At 12:48 AM 3/18/96 -0500, Jesse wrote:
>The list is up to 215 members. Preky good, since when the game died
>(err...was knocked into a coma. Must've gone past CL...) there were
>about 110 or so.
>Listen up. Send shit to T$R. All of you. Quit lurking.

In likle bags? Or large boxes? I don't think I could get it across the border.

I have stayed out of the "write and encourage T$R to resurrect Mythus" and
"T$R rep must die" conversaôns thus far. This will be my only post on
either of these issues.

Your lekers will do no good. Mythus is dead in its current incarnaôn. If
T$R were to re-issue it, it would be FUBAR'd. BUT we have the core rules.
What else do we need? NOTHING. Sure, it'd be nice to have stu for other
genres, but the rules we have let us create those ourselves. And
adventures, accessories, and generic novels by the howling monkeys with
typewriters division? Come o it. Somewrote wrote that T$R is a
corporaôn. True. And corporaôns like T$R are completely lacking in
imaginaôn themselves, and serve to sê imaginaôn and crea^vity in
others. As it stands, Mythus is ours, regardless of who owns the copyright,
through dint of understanding. We understand the rules, we play the game.
Ours. So stop wri^ng to T$R and write to and for the people that count in
this maker... the gamers.

As for the rep in our midst, live with it. Discuss the game. Maybe he'll
give it a go; likely he won't. Don't prosely^ze - lead by example. So
he'll catch us in violaôn of T$R's "don't touch / talk about / publish
(yes, talking on the net is publishing) material for any game we hold the
copyright to or we'll sue the pants o you and then have you arrested for
indecency" policy. So what? We're not making any money o this stu.
They're not publishing anything that we'd be taking market share from. And
it'd be even more bad publicity for them. T$R may have deep pockets, but
we're not worth their ^me or expense, threats or no.

Re: Using Mythus Prime. WHY? It sucks. It's a butchered, cut down version
of the system. It reads like an averthought ("oh yah, let's include
something for the morons - you know, the ones who think that plate mail
makes you harder to hit than leather armor does, instead of reducing damage
to a greater degree. Now let's call it Mythus Prime"). I intend no (or at
least, likle) disrespect to EGG and DN, but MP was a royal fuckup.

Re: Having more EGS players here so we can prosely^ze to them. NO! PLEASE.
You can't reason with brainwashed morons. Leave them to the games they
enjoy. They'll drop thousands of dollars on M:tG and EGS and feel they've
goken their money's worth. Who are we to argue? Maybe some of them will
take the next step and look for a game that's a likle richer, more
plausible (read consistent, both internally and with common sense), and so
on. Some few of these may nd Mythus. This would be good. Arguing with
EGS fana^cs here would be bad. I would leave & I suspect a good number of
others would too.

For those people who're interested - my list of vocaôns for worlds that
are less heka-intensive and less "superhero HP" based can s^ll be found
from my regular web page. BUT the web page itself will be moving and soon
(I'm moving to a T3 connecôn from a 128K connecôn). I'll post the new
informaôn as soon as I get a conrmaôn on my new IP addresses and
Domain names.

Take care,
Gary

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 02:15:33 -0500
Subject: Re: New Guy

That, my friend, you will have to ask Sean about. I inquired about similar
things with the original TSR online rep on AOL (Rob Rhepp) - primarily the
chance that the Unhallowed manuscript might be uploaded there since TSR has
no intenôns of reviving the DJ system and its a waste of resources not to
do so. I was told it was a no go.

Now, however, things might be dierent. For one thing, if TSR would release
such a bundle on the internet, it might just shut some of the commoôn up
(for a likle while at least, un^l we nished readed and wanted more). I
s^ll say its a bad thing to leave such a vocal segment of the marketplace
screaming for your head and not throw them a bone. While some might see this
as Queen Lorraine saying, "let them eat cake," others would be too busy
digging through the notes for cool ideas.

Hey, Sean. Maybe you could check for us. :)

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 02:35:49 -0500
Subject: Weird City Ideas

Hey guys, here's something for you all to chew on. I'm in the process of
designing a new city-state for my campaign world and could use a bit of
input. This is the plan as of now:

The city is called Cimarra, and it is a rather large city state. It is set
inland on a series of rivers. It is walled.

It is centered around a rather monstrous college of the magickal arts that is
renowned across the con^nent. All schools are represented. This is the
primary draw to the city, and its claim to fame.

There are three other smaller city-states in the nearby area (within
200-miles, if not less).

The city has turned the river systems running through it into acquiducts, and
use them for travel within the city. These are not as plen^ful as Venice's
acquiducts and waterways, but they are the major highways.

The original populaôn, ameridian-based people, has long since been
enslaved. Through the process of selec^ve breeding and magickal tamperings,
the rulers and nobles have developed these people into a near-perfect servant
race. They have bred the ap^tude for magick out of most of them, to prevent
any such upriseals, and treat these people as property. Now, they are so
distant from their original heritage, they can be considered a race all their
own.

The reason of the foundaôn of Cimarra in this par^cular neck of the woods
(it is extremely isolated, located between the northern and southern porôns
of the con^nent where the majority of the populaôn is) is the large stores
of Hekalite found in veins a distance beneath the earth. This amounts to a
sort of magickal beacon! To protect themselves from raiding armies bent on
capturing such a prize, a magickal circle has been drawn around the city,
about 50 miles or so in diameter. The magicks of this circle were drawn from
a monstrous ritual which is renewed every decade or so. The eect of the
circle is that any who pass through it "forget" about the prize of Cimarra
(the hekalite). It is a selec^ve spell and only aects that one bit of
knowledge. Raiders who head for the city-state promptly forget why they were
headed that way, and it takes some of the ght out of them.

Well that's it so far. Any input of ideas would be welcomed.

BTW, this is NOT an Aerth based campaign.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 02:41:29 -0500
Subject: EGS???...TSR???...

Go back to saying "I" instead of "we"....I am not so small minded as to let a
game get me so worked up...I like both games and have yet to see Mr Gygax put
out anything I don't like...I would rather Mr Reynolds stayed on the list so
we can here "their" side of the issue...

Bill

"why for you put me in the cold cold ground? --Tazmanian Devil
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 07:41:08 -0500
From: Pablo Lowry <cbotero@GROVE.UFL.EDU>
Subject: Re: #'s are up!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960318004642.25614C-100000@orichalc.acsu.bualo.edu>

On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Jesse wrote:

> The list is up to 215 members.

I wonder how many of these are T$R reps! =:>

ps: Just because I'm paranoid, it doesn't mean that a mul^naônal
isn't really out to get me!

888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
El Huacho
Pablo Lowry cbotero@grove.u.edu caramba@ufcc.u.edu quiltro@aol.com
888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:08:42 -0500
Subject: Using Mythus Prime (Re: #'s are up!)
In-Reply-To: <MYTHUS-L%96031801492822@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>

On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Gary Spechko wrote:

> Re: Using Mythus Prime. WHY? It sucks. It's a butchered, cut down version
> of the system. It reads like an averthought ("oh yah, let's include
> something for the morons - you know, the ones who think that plate mail
> makes you harder to hit than leather armor does, instead of reducing damage
> to a greater degree. Now let's call it Mythus Prime"). I intend no (or at
> least, likle) disrespect to EGG and DN, but MP was a royal fuckup.

Gaaaa! No! NONONO! (There, was that strident enough disagreement?)

Mythus Prime, IMO, serves TWO par^cularly useful purposes:

(1) It is a *very* convenient system for a 'pick-up' game, wherein most
of the players do not have HP's of any sort already made, and half the
players have never messed with much RPGing, much less Mythus. And you
have one night to create the persona and play the game, and you'll
probably never play again. Oh yeah, and the JM doesn't have ^me prepare
for much of anything. What beker way to leave a posi^ve impression of
the gaming system?

(2) It is an awesomely simple system to expand beyond Fantasy. Stu
from other systems (GURPS, V:tM, CP 2020, AD&D, AE, etc) translates more
easily to Prime than to Advanced, since Prime has about the same
complexity as the mechanics of the other systems. From Prime, it's a
simple step to Advanced, most of the ^me :-)

I use Prime for the former purpose, and to keep my in-laws interested in
roleplaying. They wouldn't be able to take Advanced. (a) it's too much
^me, (b) it's too complex, (c) it's too hard to remember, and (d) we
game (on average) once every six to nine months. Prime ts the bill.

It does not *SUCK*. It is, however, not the best agent for a
long-running, sustained campaign. And, as a reminder, that wasn't why it
was created. It was created to allow one to ease into the system, and to
make the transiôn to Mythus without mastering incredible complexiês
from day one. Us die-hard people *have* mastered the complexity, and we
thrive on it (or so it seems), but we are not everyone :-/

There, does that explain why anyone would considered using Prime for any
purpose? :-)

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 14:57:57 -0500
Subject: GM or JM & Mythus Prime

First o, I'd like to know what JM means? I thought DJ used GM for Game
Master instead of Dungeon Master.

As for Mythus Prime, I know that the veteran AD&D 2nd Ed. players I thought
might want to try DJ thought the advanced rules were too complicated and
hard. So, this ^me, if ever, I will denitely start with Prime or Core
rules instead, and then move up to Advanced when my players know what DJ is
about.

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:27:00 -0500
Subject: Re: GM or JM & Mythus Prime

JM was a term coined aver the games release. It stands for Journey Master.
Just one more acronym to set us o from the other systems.

I haven't played Prime, and don't intend to. Our group is all adults, the
youngest is 24+, reasonably intelligent and we like complex and well thought
out systems.

However, I don't begrudge those who want to use the Prime rules a somewhat
less involved and complex version of the game. To each his or her own. A
lesson many people appear to need to learn.

Opinions are one thing, abuse is another.

Later.

Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:32:47 -0500

Subject: Collec^ve BS

I'll keep this short and simple, mostly because thats all it warrants.

I just received a whole ock of messages from the list, very few of which
had anything to do with the game.

Could you please handle the pissing contests through EMail? I for one would
be eternally gratefull.

Thank you
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:34:24 -0500
Subject: Phaeree Manual

How are the contribuôns to the Phaeree manual coming along. I'm a bit
tardy but making progress. Anyone else close?

Later
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:48:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Weird City Ideas
In-Reply-To: <960318023547_354568008@mail06>

Tom
It seems a likle weird that the people of Cimmarra (Does Conan live
there? :)) would go through all the trouble of the huge circle to make
someone forget one likle thing. I don't think it would work too well,
either. For instance, what keeps the people living there from forgeing
about it? And if they do forget about it, why would they keep doing the
ritual? Not to menôn the fact that enemies would just remember again
when they lev the circle. Then, that would just piss them o more
(about a dierent subject that they would not forget) and cause them to
akack again.

My rst inclinaôns on defenses: Demons. WHy not? They have a big
circle, and lots of wizards.

Make the circle drain the energy of anger away from whomever is within.
This would reduce crime in the city as well, as an avereect. Plus
enemies couldn't bypass it.

Use the used-to-be-amerindians-now-slaves as a guard breed. Just in

case.

Besides why would the wizards be afraid? There's a bunch of them (there
must be some good ones, to teach all those dierent students), and they
might, aver a number of years, become quite overcondent in their
ability to "zap" any invaders...

Anyway, just my rst thoughts...

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 16:10:56 -0500

>>First o, I'd like to know what JM means? I thought DJ used GM for Game
>>Master instead of Dungeon Master.

That was before the powers-that-be changed it to JM, or Journey Master. As
people who play and/or run DJ seem to be a cut above the rest, I think the
term is well founded.

>>As for Mythus Prime, I know that the veteran AD&D 2nd Ed. players I thought
>>might want to try DJ thought the advanced rules were too complicated and
>>hard. So, this ^me, if ever, I will denitely start with Prime or Core
rules instead, and then move up to Advanced when my players know >>what DJ is
about.

You know, I did this too. However, I found that altering a game in
mid-session from MP to AM is a bit nerve wracking. The two games are just
dierent enough to cause problems. My suggesôn would be this. Write a
short, three-four session senario using the Mythus Prime rules for an
introducôn. This gets the players acquianted with the terminology, core
rules, and HP sheet in general. Aver the intro, take them up a notch to
Advanced Mythus. Make sure you go through the rules and make notes on what
you plan to use o the bat.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:41:39 PST

>Then again, if the online rep. of the company which owns the copyright on
>given material is telling you, "Who's to know." it might be safer than
>you would normally expect. ;-)

Or, it could be a message with the intent of sovening people's paranoia
enough to subsequently entrap them when they try. But we don't know any
company that would engage in *those* kinds of tac^cs, now *do* we?

(yes, that was sarcasm for all you bleeding heart 'I don't have anything
against TSR' folks) [Ooooo! mul^-layered sarcasm...]

Personally, I wouldn't touch such materieal with a ten-foot modem cable. I
saw up close and personal what happens to people who wind up on the wrong
end of a lawyer in this industry.

Oh, and BTW, welcome Sean. If you can stomach the covert and overt
hos^lity, you are more than welcome here. However, if you want to avoid any
senseless TSR bashing, join the QMS list - we don't talk about TSR at all
there. ;)

Dave=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:44:04 -0500

Right, I would never switch gears while WITHIN a game session, or a gaming
adventure. I think I'm going to try the intro adventure included, and then
move from there into the Necropolis campaign with Advanced. Thanks for the
info.

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:52:13 PST

>Hey, I'm everywhere, man, like oxygen....

Good. you need to hear some of this stu. And just as there are gamers
who are ercely loyal to the game, there are some designers who wouldn't
mind wri^ng for the system. (Yes, guys, that's a hint - although I doubt
TSR would hire such an outspoken cri^c as myself. Of course, when you
are making money, you have less ^me to complain, right? :) )


>
>other mailing lists I'm on) suggested that I sign on here because there
>was some serious TSR-bashing going on, and there was nobody from

This last exchange provoked gales of laughter when I read it. I don't
think you will get many quesôns that couldn't be answered by a TSR
FAQ. And the rest would be some that I wouldn't answer were I an
employee.

>Aver discussing it with the above listmember that I menôned
>(who shall remain nameless for the ^me being ;)), the groundwork
>for the leker campaign started. Write lekers. Lots of lekers.
>Include pictures of your gaming group siing around a table, playing
>Mythus. Include pictures of the stacks of adventures & etc. that
>you've wriken to go with Mythus. Talk about how much money you'd
>spend on Mythus. Talk abou how you'd spend rent/food/beer money to
>get Mythus products instead. Get your gaming clubs to write
>(as individuals). Get their fellow gamers to write. Talk it up at
>convenôns. Get them to write. Flood my boss with mail (he
>doesn't really work, anyway, he's a VP!). Lorraine, too.
>Oh, and Will Martens (our VP of Marke^ng), too.

I don't know how well you get along with Lorraine, but every impression
that I have of her is that she lines the bokom of her birdcage with
Mythus just to see Gary's name in proximity to something else she'd
never touch.

> protability: making a prot is good; however, note that
> what small RPG companies consider astounding prots
> are usually considered minor by TSR ... TSR tends
> to make a lot of prot, and so things that are
> protable are oven dropped in favor of things
> that are astoundingly protable (i.e., the lines
> that TSR drops are oven enough to support
> a smaller co. for several years)

Remember, there were MILLIONS involved in the lawsuit, folks.

>I think the main downer on Mythus isn't really from a majority of the
>employees, it's from Lorraine, and people don't want to get her mad.
>Plus, there was so much weird stu going on with the lawsuit that
>people just don't want to get caught up in it.

Hey, she's a BIG woman. I wouldn't want to piss her o much myself.
At least not while she's carrying all those smelly akorneys around
in her back pocket. You know what they say about ul^mate power...

And I will re-iterate something I once said: almost every TSR employee
I've ever met, I've liked (with the excepôn of Jim Ward, and that's
because I had to sit across from him in a deposiôn). But remember,
just because I like someone, doesn't mean I don't like to get 'em
s^rred up every once in a while. It's like someone (Mae West, I think)
once said: "People who are upset easily don't get out oven enough."

Dave=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 22:39:50 +0100
Subject: Tom, can we buy Mythus aver 7 years?

Tom, at 13:42 17-03-96 -0500, you wrote:
(snip)
>Mike, put away your bikerness for one second. If you honestly think, or any
>of these people on the board, that TSR will eventually revive Mythus, I can
>only shake my head. Your game is safe folks. Its siing on your shelves
>where the KG...er, sorry, TSR can never touch it. It lives with us. All we
>have to do is wait out the seven years and buy it up.

What's the news on the 7 years? Do you mean that it is possible to buy
Mythus from TSR aver 7 years?

Harold Stringer
biopharm@xs4all.nl
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 22:39:58 +0100

Wayne,

At 23:14 17-03-96 -0500, you wrote:
>I just want to preface this message by leing you know that this is the
>rst mailing list that I have subscribed to. Please, in light of that fact,
>refrain from killing me if I do not use the proper protocals.

We all started one day, and we're all s^ll here. Some of us alive, other
undead, but all s^ll gaming strong!

>I'm really just tes^ng the waters here but I do have one quesôn to ask: Is
>it possible to acquire informaôn on any beta realeses of other Dangerous
>Journey's genres? Or...does anyone know of games like Unhallowed that were
>slated for release but got placed in stasis when "the incident" occured.

Actually, when I bought the Besâry (book 5) a long long ^me ago, in the
rear there was an adver^sement for The City of Ascalon, a campaign seing.
When I phoned GDW, I talked to a guy (I forgot his name) who is the author
of this scenario. He told me that the scenario was wriken, and ready for
nal correcôns and prin^ng. Aver that, the crash came.

Is there anyone out there who knows whether this scenario was part of the
seklement, and who the author is?
If it was no part of the seklement, maybe he's willing to share his work.
Personally, I'm willing to pay for my copy. So if all of us buy it from him,
he will s^ll get some money for his work.

Harold Stringer
biopharm@xs4all.nl
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 22:39:53 +0100
Subject: Re: op-Inves^gator

At 21:00 17-03-96 -0600, you wrote:
>In hopes of s^mula^ng some idea exchanges I would like to oer some
>interes^ng K/S bundles. My friends and I have been working on some to
>ll out the HP contacts and proposing them as viable OP and HP(s). If you

At last, something related to playing Muthus.

Keep those ideas coming! :)

(snip)
>More to follow, if interested... they could be posted :)

I can't use the inves^gator in my current campaign, however, I may be able
to use one of the coming ones. Please post them :)

>Thanks to those who host this list that we can share usefull ideas.:)

Hear, Hear (banging loudly on my keyboard)

>AJ (Marlynn be mercifull, I opened my mouth!)

Oh my God! We all know your name now! Your campaigns will be regularly
visited by the Mythus Game Police, checking for Impuriês in your rulings.
Beker polish up your Law K/S ;-)

Harold Stringer
biopharm@xs4all.nl
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:53:41 -0500
From: "John R. Troy" <johntroy@TIAC.NET>

>Is there anyone out there who knows whether this scenario was part of the
>seklement, and who the author is?
>If it was no part of the seklement, maybe he's willing to share his work.
>Personally, I'm willing to pay for my copy. So if all of us buy it from him,
>he will s^ll get some money for his work.
>
The author is a gentleman named Loren K. Wiseman. He's wriken a lot for
GDW. He was GDW's ocial on-line representa^ve on GEnie and AOL.

At the ^me, he wasn't willing to part with it. Now, I wonder if he would be.
==================================================================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net

NOTE: Any E-Mail to genie.com or genie.geis.com is now INVALID.>
==================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:47:50 -0500

>Oh, and BTW, welcome Sean. If you can stomach the covert and overt
>hos^lity, you are more than welcome here. However, if you want to avoid any
>senseless TSR bashing, join the QMS list - we don't talk about TSR at all
>there. ;)

QMS list?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 18:49:17 +0100
Subject: Loren K. Wiseman's e-mail address?

John, At 17:53 19-03-96 -0500, you wrote:
>The author is a gentleman named Loren K. Wiseman. He's wriken a lot for
>GDW. He was GDW's ocial on-line representa^ve on GEnie and AOL.
>
>At the ^me, he wasn't willing to part with it. Now, I wonder if he would be.

John, do you happen do have his e-mail address? Anybody else?

Harold Stringer
biopharm@xs4all.nl
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 16:23:17 -0500
Subject: What do I need to start?

All right, I want to familiarize myself with the game ...
what are the "core rules" for the Mythus game? In other
words, which products should I start with if I wanted to
learn it? I think I am advanced enough to not need to
start with the Mythus Prime rules, thank you.

- Sean
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:55:08 GMT
Subject: Re: What do I need to start?
In-Reply-To: <960320162314_357003394@mail06>

>
> All right, I want to familiarize myself with the game ...
> what are the "core rules" for the Mythus game? In other
> words, which products should I start with if I wanted to
> learn it? I think I am advanced enough to not need to
> start with the Mythus Prime rules, thank you.
>

Sean,

All you really need is the Mythus book 1 (GDW ref 5000).
Book 2, Mythus magic would help. Epic of Aerth is not, in my
opinion, neccessary.

Of course, you may have diculty obtaining these due to the legal
acôn by T$R.

(Sorry, couldn't resist) :-)

Have fun,

Mark Goode
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 14:53:58 -0700

At 04:23 PM 3/20/96 -0500, you wrote:
>All right, I want to familiarize myself with the game ...
>what are the "core rules" for the Mythus game? In other
>words, which products should I start with if I wanted to
>learn it? I think I am advanced enough to not need to
>start with the Mythus Prime rules, thank you.
>

I'll let other's respond to this, but I highly suggest a few things:

Start by making up a character -- something like a merc, soldier, or
explorer is good, becuase they are rela^vely poor and have likle magic.

Don't try to convert a character, stat-wise, over from another game.
Conver^ng a Concept is ne, but trying to convert numbers is... well,
easy, but sorta pointless.

You'd need the Dangerous Journeys Mythus Rule book (has a '1' on the spine
of the book -- TSR should have a stack of em lyin' around) -- and that's
preky much it...

Have to note here... most of the book is either sort of an encyclopedia, or
it's opônal... like tha tables for rolling up personality, skin color,
etc, for a character... that stu is mostly just for NPC generaôn.

Although, just for fun, my friend made up his rst character using every
single opônal table in the book :) It's one of his favorite characters :)

Okay, maybe I WILL respond to this :)
___
_ C ..\__ "That's the rst ^me I've ever heard
_/ \ ___| oo\ _ paranoia described as being
| \_/\/___ _____/_/ \_ 'exible'."
| |_) | __|/` _ \| \_/ \ --Richard Cross, Murder One
| _ <| _>| /_\ | | ) )
| |_) | \| ` ' | \
__|____/|___|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 15:06:15 -0700


My gawd, I'm replying to my own post. :P

>
>At 04:23 PM 3/20/96 -0500, Sean wrote:
>>All right, I want to familiarize myself with the game ...
>>what are the "core rules" for the Mythus game? In other
>>words, which products should I start with if I wanted to
>>learn it? I think I am advanced enough to not need to
>>start with the Mythus Prime rules, thank you.

Just for the record, I have to say that in some ways, the Mythus Prime rules
are elegant in their simplicity -- probably as close to freeform or diceless
as Gary will ever get :)

>Start by making up a character -- something like a merc, soldier, or
explorer is >good, becuase they are rela^vely poor and have likle magic.

On the subject of magick and stu, I'd like to put out a suggesôn/plea to
all the regulars as we help Sean gure out this stu: lets keep all but
the most 'standardized' house rules out of the lime light for now, so that
Sean can check out the core rules and make his own calls.

I'm not disparraging the house rules, by any means, lord knows I use a lot
of em, I'm just saying he should check out the game as it stands rst.

What are 'standardized' house rules? The only one I can think of that would
t is one Dave Newton oered regarding star^ng number of cas^ngs:
limi^ng star^ng cas^ngs for any spell-tosser to a number equal to that
Persona's main akribute: 20 spells for a mage if their MM is a 20, etc.

I menôn that one becuase it makes mages alot faster to create. :)

It's easy to drown in the main book, without hiing him with our own,
home-grown rehoses as well :)

Later.
___
| \_/\/___ _____/_/ \_ 'exible'."
| _ <| _>| /_\ | | ) )
| |_) | \| ` ' | \
__|____/|___|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 20:11:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Loren K. Wiseman's e-mail address?

At 06:49 PM 3/20/96 +0100, Harold Stringer, Ridascreen-Biopharm B.V. wrote:
>John, At 17:53 19-03-96 -0500, you wrote:
>>The author is a gentleman named Loren K. Wiseman. He's wriken a lot for
>>GDW. He was GDW's ocial on-line representa^ve on GEnie and AOL.
>>
>>At the ^me, he wasn't willing to part with it. Now, I wonder if he would be.
>
>John, do you happen do have his e-mail address? Anybody else?
>
I don't think its valid anymore. It was GDW.SUPPORT@genie.com But, if the
company folded, he wouldn't have that. Also, GEnie gave game companies free
access to their secôns, so if he's jobless...

==================================================================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net

==================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:07:18 -0500
From: Todd Banister <haakon@MINDSPRING.COM>

All right I am preky sure that every one would like to know when this
aucôn is going to wind up. Well rst let us say that the last thing
we want to do is let this aucôn run somewhere in the range of 2 to 3
months, like some we have all had the misfortune of par^cipa^ng in. (Heck
my roomate is in one now.)

Anyway, this weekend we will begin the Going. GOING(x2)!
GONE! segment of the aucôn. This will start Saturday, whatever the most
recent
bid is on an item at that ^me is going to be posted to the two newsgroups
on Sunday
as Going!. If the bid holds for three days then it will be placed up to the
next level: GOING(x2)!. If the bid holds for three days aver reaching
GOING(x2)!
then it will go to GONE! and it will be yours if you had the last bid.
If, while a bid is Going! or GOING(x2)! and a new bid comes in it will
immediately go back to Going! and back to day one.

Todd and I(Thomas) would like to thank every one of you for expressing such an
interest. Right now our aucôn is 12 days old and the interest has been
outstanding! We have tried to make this aucôn as easy on the bidder as
possible,
with the excepôn of deciding whether or not to up that bid, by providing you
with daily informaôn on bids. Sorry about ooding your mail in the process.
To get on with it though we would like this aucôn to not drag at all so we
are moving forward with the closing part of the aucôn. THE ONLY EXCEPTION
TO THIS IS THE LIST OF NEW ITEMS WE HAVE BELOW, WHICH WERE JUST ADDED AS OF
MARCH 19, 1996. Otherwise every thing on the post below will be closed out
begining this Saturday.

We wish everybody the best of luck, and hope everyone has a good ^me and can
get something they want. Again, the reason our aucôn has been a success is
because of the interest of everyone of you. Thanks.

Thomas & Todd

P.S. If you have any quesôns concerning the handling of the next phase of
the
aucôn please email us and ask.

Oh, and sorry that all my notes are so darn warm and fuzzy sounding.

SEE YA.

Below is a copy of the latest post.

NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW
****************************************************************************
********
MonsterManual 1st ed. '79 (Gd)

B1 In Search of the Unknown '80 (Gd)

B3 Palace of the Silver Princess '81 Green Cover (Gd)

GAZ7 Gazateer of Northern Reaches '88 (Ex)

I.C.E. Campaign + Character Law (Ex)

********************************************************************************

-Avalon HillAdvance Squad Leader RuleBox '85 (GD)
Has some highlighted areas on pages and is worn

1830 The Game of Railroads and Robber Barons '86 (EX)


Sta^s Pro Basketball '87 (VG)

Sta^s Pro Football 1982 -(Raiders <SuperBowl>, 49er's <Montana>,
Redskins <Riggins>, Piksburg <Bradshaw>, Rams <Dickerson>,Charger
<Last year for the greatest oense ever!>

Panzer Blitz '81 (G)
BID $2 epass@nyx.net

Auto Racing '80 (G)

Hundred Days Bakles '83 (VG)

AMBUSH (victory games) '83 (VG)

Guns of August '81 (G)
BID $10 spdennis@mail.usinternet.com

Sta^s Pro Baseball (Around 4 Seasons: 1985, 1987, 1988, 1992)

-Fantasy Games UnlimitedVillains and Vigilantes DM Screen '81 (VG)

Villains and Vigilantes There's a crisis at Crusader Citadel '82 (VG)

Villains and Vigilantes RPG Book '82 (VG)
BID $10z darin@texoma.com

-FASARenegade Legion Centurion Blood and Steel '88 (Gd)

ShadowRun 1st ed. '89 (VG)

MechWarrior RPG '86 (Gd)


BakleTech Box Set 2nd ed. '85

BakleTech Manual '87 (EX)

DropShips and Jumpships '88 (VG)
BID $20 as298@Cleveland.freenet.edu

BakleTech Tech Readout 3025 '86 (Gd)

BakleTech Tech Readout 3026 '87 (Pr)

BakleTech Mercenary's Handbook '87 (VG)

-Games WorkshopDark Future Box Set '88 (VG)
BID $20 guerilla@thepoint.net

Dark Future White Line Fever '88 Hole Punched (GD)

Dark Future Extra Tracks '88 (EX)

Warhammer 40K RuleBook Harbound '87 (Gd)

Warhammer Siege '88 Hardbound (EX)
BID $16 erozenbo@riker.neoucom.edu

Adeptus Titanicus '88 Missing 1 Titan (GD)
BID $28 axe@knuth.mtsu.edu

Epic Eldar Legion '89 (EX)

Realm of Chaos '88 First Book HardBound (EX)

White Dwarf Mags all in good shape.(KILLER PAINTING IDEAS!)
***************************************************************************
WFB-Warhammer Fantasy Bakle; WFRP-Warhammer Fantasy RolePlay; 40K-Warhammer

40K;
AHQ-Advanced Hero Quest; BB-Blood Bowl; DF-Dark Future; ES-Epic Scale Stu;
AT-Adeptus Titanicus; SH-Space Hulk; ME-Mighty Empires; CF-Confrontaôn
ASC-Advanced Space Crusade; SF-Space Fleet; SM-Space Marine
****************************************************************************
ISSUE #103 (Realm of Chaos-Weapons, 40K-Vehichles, Warhammer-Orcs/Gob.,
Bloodbowl)

ISSUE #104 (40K-Robots, Dark Future, BloodBowl, RealmofChaos)

ISSUE #105 (40K-Harlequins&SpaceMarines,BloodBowl, WarhammerFantasyRolePlay)

ISSUE #106 (40K-HarlequinsList, RealmOfChaos-Beastmen,DarkFuture,WFRP,BB)

ISSUE #107 (WFB-Norse,WFRP,DF,40K-ChaosRenegades,BB)

ISSUE #108 (DF,WFRP,WFB,AT-Pain^ng,40K-Chaplins&Commisars)

ISSUE #109 (RealmOFChaos-Nurgl,Tzeentch,40K-ImperialGaurd
list,40k-TerminatorArmor)
NO BID

ISSUE #111 (40K-SQUATS!-list,BB-Refs,AT-CloseCombat,WFRP)

ISSUE #112 (40K-TERMINATORS!-list,WFRP,BB,DF,PARANOIA&40K RolePlay Scenario)

ISSUE #113 (SpaceHulk, WFB-CollegesOfMagic, DungeonBowl(BB), Minature Mutaôns)

ISSUE #114 (AT, WFB-Magic, 40K-GeneSteelers, SpaceHulk)

ISSUE #115 (40K-Commisars, SpaceHulk,40K-GeneSteelers,SpaceMarine Preview)

ISSUE #116 (ES-Damage System&Ork Gargants,40K-GeneStlr List,WFB-Dwark Ski
Troops!!)

ISSUE #117 (AT-LandingPods&DropShips, 40K-Wartrak&Whirlwind vehicles,
WFB-famous bakle)

ISSUE #118 (WFRP(x2), BB-magic, 40k-vehicle, Ork Stu)

ISSUE #121 (WFB-DarkElf List, AHQ, RealmOfChaos-Nurgle, Space Hulk)

ISSUE #122 (RealmOfChaos-Tzeentch, BB, SH, 40K-Strategy/tac^cs,
WFRP-adventure, AHQ)

ISSSUE #125 (WFRP-character ideas, AHQ-module, WFB-Chaos Minotaurs,
ES-Imperial Gaurd list,DF-campaign rules!)

ISSUE #126 (WFRP-city, ES-Marines&stu, 40K-more Orks(Madboyz), ES-Eldar
Knights-rules&pain^ng guide!)

ISSUE #127 (WFB-FAQs, ES-Squats!, 40K-Eldar Army List-Revised/All new!!!!)
BID $3 jgrace@TetraSov.com

ISSUE #128 (ES-EpicOrc list, 40K-Vehicles <revised rules>,
WFRP-Marienburg<city>)

ISSUE #129 (40K-SpaceMarine update-ARMOR INFO!, 40K-Vehicles<cont frm 128>,
ORC-painbozy rules)

ISSUE #131 (ES-RealOfChaos!-lists,info; ME-Wizards' Towers;
40K-GANGS!-info<yeeha>; Model Conversions)
BID $5 glennc@informix.com

ISSUE #132 (CONFRONTATION-GANG WARFARE!; ADVANCED SPACE CRUSADE-Imperial
Gaurd!; 40K-Baneblade vehicle)

ISSUE #134 (SC-New rules, AHQ-Adventure, ORKS-How to Paint)

ISSUE #135 (ME - new Bakle rules, 40K-Ork Freebooterz/Weapons, 40K-Vehicle
Point Values, SH-missions)

ISSUE #144 (WFB-Pain^ng-DarkElf, Elf Wardancers, Dwarfs; ES-Titan Data
Sheets; SM-Scenarios)
NO BID

ISSUE #146 (SPACEFLEET, WFB-pain^ng-Empire army, Dreadnoughts(40K)-revised)


ISSUE #150 (40K-Close Combat Rules&Hand-to-hand weapons(revised),
AHQ-Tzeentch, ES-Ork Vehicles)

ISSUE #152 (The DWARF REALMS-cool dwarf info!, 40K-Ork/Emperium
Personaliês, WFB-Short Story)

ISSUE #153 (40K-World Eater Rules!<Chaos>, BIG 'EAVY METAL issue),WFB-Dwarf
Rune Weapons)
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ISSUE #155 (WFB-War Replay (bakle review), 40K Vehicles-Revised, WFB-Goblin
Squig's and Net Teams)

ISSUE #156 (40K-Space Wolves info!<COOL>, ES-Chaos Space Marines(Bakle
Review), WFB-HIGH ELVES!)
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ISSUE #181 (BB-Skeleton Team, ES-IMPERATOR-biggest darn Titan Ever!, CHAOS
SPAWN!, SM-Terminators)



Blood Bowl Blister Pack Morg'n'Throg 8404 Unopened (EX)





Blood Bowl Blister Pack Halings 8401 Unopened (EX)

-I.C.ECreatures & Treasures '85 (VG)
BID $4 zpdroster@a1.trident.tec.sc.us

Star Hero RPG '89 (VG)
BID $6 koguk@colorado.edu

-Mayfair GamesCity State of the Invincible Overlord '87 (EX)

D.C. Heroes Box Set 2nd ed. Missing Char Cards '89 (VG)
BID $6 tdragons@stm.atlan^c-line.fr

D.C. Heroes Watchmen Module '87 (EX)

D.C. Heroes Stangers in Paradise Module '88 (EX)
BID $2 Reaper

D.C. Heroes Rigged Results Module '87 (EX)

-R. Talsorian GamesCyberpunk '88 1st ed. (EX)
BID $4 : info1455@a^la.dcs.eup.uva.es

-Steve Jackson GamesGURPS Space '93 (EX)

GURPS Magic '89 (VG)

GURPS Mage the Ascension '94 (EX)
BID $8 hunt@dsd.northrop.com

-The Emperor's Press-
Empire (Napoleon Minis) '90 (EX)

BID $7 gandara@clark.net

-TSRAC6 Player Character Record Sheets '85 (GD)
8 of 16 character sheets remain. 8 of 8 spellbook checklists
(wizard,elf,cleric, druid) remain. ALL PHOTOCOPYABLE (I know it's not
a word).

Al-Qudim '92 Sovcover Sourcebook (EX)

B1-9 In search of Adventure '87 (VG)
BID $30 marler@husc.harvard.edu

D&D Set:1 Basic Rules '83 (VG No Dice included)

D&D Set 2: Expert Rulebook '83 (GD No Dice included)

D&D Set 3: Companion Rules '84 (VG)
BID $4 brandonk@omnifest.uwm.edu

DMGR1 Campaign Sourcebook and Catacomb Guide '90 (EX)

DMGR5 Crea^ve Campaigning '93 (EX)

DragonLance Time of the Dragon '89 (VG)

DLA1 Dragon Dawn '90 (EX)

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Forgoken Realms Atlas '90 (EX)

Forgoken Realms Campaign Set '87 (VG)

Forgoken Realms Ruins of the Undermountain II '94 (EX)
BID $11 carlosh@bosch.cs.berkeley.edu

Monstrous Compendium Vol 1 '89 (VG Binder ediôn)

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GAZ9 The Minrothad Guilds '88 (VG)
BID $17 Sowder@eagle.uis.edu

Hordes Campaign Seing '90 (VG)

M1 Into the Maelstorm '85 (Pr)

Magic Encyclopedia (AD&D - 2nd Ed) Vol 2 of 2. '93 (VG)

PC4 Creature Crucible Night Howlers '92 (EX)

Star Fronêrs Alpha Dawn '82 (Gd)
BID $5 bnewman@3rdplanet.com

Star Fronêrs Knight Hawks '83 (Gd)
BID $3 c604016@mizzou1.missouri.edu

Spell Jammer Box Set '89 (VG)

X2 Castle Amber '81 (GD Holepunched)
BID $4 sowder@uis.edu

-West End GamesGalaxy Guide 4 Alien Races '89 (VG)

Galaxy Guide 6 Tramp Freighters '90 (EX)
BID $4 js^ll@primenet.com

Planets of the Galaxy Vol. 1 '91 (EX)




-White WolfWerewolf The Apocalypse 2nd ed. '94 Hardbound (EX)
BID $15 cs229084@bit.csc.lsu.edu

Under a Blood Red Moon '93 (EX)

Vampire the Masquerade 2nd ed. '92 (EX)
BID $11 hunt@dsd.northrop.com

Chicago by Night '93 (EX)

The Players guide to the Sabbat '92 (EX)
BID $5 kennes2@rpi.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 18:59:49 -0800

FINALS ARE OVER!!!!!!!
Yeeeeeeeeehaw!
Well, this was one of the more excrucia^ng weeks I've had to endure.

Alright, my last on this sordid subject forever.

I want nothing to do with EGS, and will have nothing to do with them,
NOT because of what they did to Mythus(although I certainly do hate them for
this). I will have nothing to do with them because of what kind of people
they are and what they are capable of.

Are you guys crazy? Don't you care about what T$R did to Gary and Steve,
much less our game? What makes you think they give a shit about what you
feel, or have, beyond your almighty dollar? Well, your willingness to have
trac with these beings akests to a lack of concern, so why do I ask.

Makes me shudder. And I will never buy anything as perverse as Mythus by T$R.

Like it or not, Sean is a *representa^ve* of EGS, thus a representa^ve of
all the good they do, *and* all the bad they do.
Sean is EGS.
Thats generally what representa^ves do/are. If he doesn't want to be EGS,
he shouldn't have taken the job.

Everything I said stands. As it is, I am considering unsubscribing, and as
I am not into love-hate relaônships, I probably will. As it is, Spring
Break starts now, and I refuse to ruin it with something like this.

Later(maybe)

Mike (Symbiote par excellance ;) )
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:13:18 -0700

At 06:59 PM 3/20/96 -0800, Chris/Mike wrote:

>Alright, my last on this sordid subject forever.

>I want nothing to do with EGS, and will have nothing to do with them,
>Everything I said stands. As it is, I am considering unsubscribing,

>Later(maybe)

212 - 1 = Let's get on with the Game.

"And that's all I have to say about that..."
--Forrest Gump

___
_ C ..\__
_/ \ ___| oo\ _
| \_/\/___ _____/_/ \_
| |_) | __|/` _ \| \_/ \
| _ <| _>| /_\ | | ) )
| |_) | \| ` ' | \
__|____/|___|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:29:37 -0700
Subject: Re: Chris/Mike's Rant
In-Reply-To: <199603210259.SAA04868@rho.ben2.ucla.edu> from "Chris Calvert" at
Mar 20, 96 06:59:49 pm

> Alright, my last on this sordid subject forever.

Hopefully *everybody's* last on this sordid subject forever...

> I want nothing to do with EGS, and will have nothing to do with them,
> NOT because of what they did to Mythus(although I certainly do hate them for
> this). I will have nothing to do with them because of what kind of people
> they are and what they are capable of.
>

> Are you guys crazy? Don't you care about what T$R did to Gary and Steve,

Steve? Or do you mean Dave?

> much less our game? What makes you think they give a shit about what you
> feel, or have, beyond your almighty dollar? Well, your willingness to have
> trac with these beings akests to a lack of concern, so why do I ask.

I *do* care about what The Dollar Company did to Gary, Dave, and Mythus, but
unsubscribing to the listserv because a representa^ve from the Company
happens to be present is a likle too much like bi^ng o my nose to spite
my face.

As to whether I think they give one rat's ass about my feelings, or anything
else besides my cash-- I for one have no such illusions. But I've come to
accept this as a standard quality for companies worldwide, and don't expect
any such thing...

> Makes me shudder. And I will never buy anything as perverse as Mythus by T$R.

As wouldn't I, lest Dave and/or Gary was involved *big^me* (and not just as an
'advisor' or as a 'name man'). I gure, if T$R can convince *them* that
they've changed, and the product quality is impressive enough, I'll bite.

> Like it or not, Sean is a *representa^ve* of EGS, thus a representa^ve of
> all the good they do, *and* all the bad they do.
> Sean is EGS.
> Thats generally what representa^ves do/are. If he doesn't want to be EGS,
> he shouldn't have taken the job.

Are you sure you can't tell the dierence between the person and the
posiôn? Because I've always been able to...

> Everything I said stands. As it is, I am considering unsubscribing, and as
> I am not into love-hate relaônships, I probably will.

Sorry to hear it, but what else can I say?

Bye.

> As it is, Spring
> Break starts now, and I refuse to ruin it with something like this.

Have fun.

Aaron Brezenski

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:42:42 -0500
Subject: My thoughts on this note: (fwd)

Read the tag end, to see why I'm pos^ng Dave's message

-- Mike Phillips, mike@lawlib.wm.edu

---------- Forwarded message ---------Date: Thu, 21 Mar 96 11:22:46 PST
To: Chris Calvert <calvert@UCLA.EDU>
Cc: Mike Phillips <mike@LAWLIB.WM.EDU>, Muten Roshi <roshi@umd.umich.edu>,
Hawkeye <jgris@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>, Sean K Reynolds <TSRInc@AOL.COM>
Subject: My thoughts on this note:

Mike,
Winning is not always accomplished through hos^le confrontaôn. Besides,
this list is not about conict or winning, or anyone's pissing contest with TSR
(including mine). This list is about Dangerous Journeys and Mythus, and the
gamers who love the system. I happen to be one of them. I'm also the coauthor, so maybe my thoughts carry a likle weight, and maybe not.

[SNIP]
>Are you guys crazy? Don't you care about what T$R did to Gary and Steve,
>much less our game? What makes you think they give a shit about what you
>feel, or have, beyond your almighty dollar? Well, your willingness to have
>trac with these beings akests to a lack of concern, so why do I ask.

'Scuse me, it's *Dave*, not Steve. And if I can get along with them, maybe you
should lighten up a bit. It's not the fucking employees that are the problem,
it's the management. Even Gary holds no grudges to the people who weren't
involved.

>Everything I said stands. As it is, I am considering unsubscribing, and as
>I am not into love-hate relaônships, I probably will. As it is, Spring
>Break starts now, and I refuse to ruin it with something like this.

Seems to me the guy is actually interested in learning the system if it will help
him pacify some of the hos^les around here. I think that's something that shows
a great deal of character and paênce.

But hey, I understand you have you're convicôns. If you feel you must bail out
of the list because of them, you are jusêd. But won't you feel a likle silly
leing them win that easily?

Dave Newton
(Yes, the co-creator of Mythus)

p.s. I am sending carbon copies to a couple of people on the list in hopes this
gets posted - I'm not at a computer that can send to the list right now.

Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else
is more important than fear. -Ambrose Redmoon

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:38:46 -0500
Subject: Re: My thoughts on this note: (fwd)
from "Mike Phillips" at Mar 21, 96 11:42:42 am

> 'Scuse me, it's *Dave*, not Steve. And if I can get along with them, maybe you
> should lighten up a bit. It's not the fucking employees that are the problem,
> it's the management. Even Gary holds no grudges to the people who weren't
> involved.

This is true. It is the management that produces the rules that
the company follows. We shouldn't kill the messenger for delivering the
message.

>
> >Everything I said stands. As it is, I am considering unsubscribing, and as
> >I am not into love-hate relaônships, I probably will. As it is, Spring
> >Break starts now, and I refuse to ruin it with something like this.

Why are you leing it upset you? Our collec^ve animosity
towards T$R is well known. (Hope everyone doesn't mine the all inclusive
statement. If you object, count yourself out of the statement.) It's
not going to change.

Steve actually seems like a decent guy. He is actually looking
for the rules to learn it.

I think we should come to the realizaôn that mythus will

probably never see print again. I can deal with it. That's what this
list is for. Crea^ng new ideas for a great "dead" game system. Life
moves on.

>
> Seems to me the guy is actually interested in learning the system if it will help
> him pacify some of the hos^les around here. I think that's something that shows
> a great deal of character and paênce.
>

I'm surprised that he stayed considering the amount of crap that
he has been geing. Can't we all just get along?

-Muten Roshi (Andy Ehlert)
Saiya-jin Producôns
"There is a type of freedom in knowing you're completely screwed." The Freshman
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:56:23 -0800
In-Reply-To: <199603211738.MAA04480@bael.umd.umich.edu>

>
> Steve actually seems like a decent guy. He is actually looking
> for the rules to learn it.
>

Who is Steve?

On a related (to Mythus) note: has anyone come up with new
Vocaôns/professions recently, whether for Aerth or for another seing?

Harold
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:05:54 -0700

At 09:56 AM 3/21/96 -0800, you wrote:
>>
>> Steve actually seems like a decent guy. He is actually looking
>> for the rules to learn it.
>>
>
>
> Who is Steve?
>

:) Depending on who you ask, Steve is 'Dave Newton', 'Sean the TSR rep', and
anyone else you can't remember the name of on the list. :)

Later,

Doyce 'Steve' Testerman
___
| \_/\/___ _____/_/ \_ 'exible.'"
| _ <| _>| /_\ | | ) )
| |_) | \| ` ' | \
__|____/|___|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 13:31:54 -0500
Subject: Re: My thoughts on this note

My name is Sean, by the way. :)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:12:30 -0500
Subject: Re: My thoughts on this note
In-Reply-To: <960321133153_173806186@emout07.mail.aol.com> from "Sean K
Reynolds" at Mar 21, 96 01:31:54 pm

Oops! @_@ It's been along day. Sorry about that.

>
> My name is Sean, by the way. :)
> -> Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
> TSRinc@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | hkp://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
>

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:46:15 -0500
Subject: TSR & Mythus

I've been reading and wondering, when did TSR take over the DJ system? I
thought DJ was rejected by TSR originally, so that Gary went to GDW or
whatever to get it printed and distributed. What's the deal?

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 15:06:14 -0500

I'd add the "ocial" secôns of MMM to the list of star^ng books as many
of the ar^cles were claricaôns of standard rules or addiôn of rules
that somehow didn't make it into the manuals.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 15:10:05 -0500

>>>>Right, I would never switch gears while WITHIN a game session, or a
gaming
adventure. I think I'm going to try the intro adventure included, and then
move from there into the Necropolis campaign with Advanced. Thanks for the
info.<<<<

WARNING............. Take it for what it is worth.

Although Necropolis was the only standalone adventure published for Mythus it
is NOT a beginning adventure. If you take new players and new HPs into it
you are seing yourself up for major heartburn. Add a new JM and you'll
have a real morass.

Do yourself and your players a favor and work up to it slowly.

Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 15:38:38 -0500

At 03:06 PM 3/21/96 -0500, Richard Crook wrote:
>I'd add the "ocial" secôns of MMM to the list of star^ng books as many
>of the ar^cles were claricaôns of standard rules or addiôn of rules
>that somehow didn't make it into the manuals.

Laugh. Given that they never made it into Canada at all, I must say that
calling them core is a bit much, since they're no longer available. I'm not
saying the rules in there aren't worth it, just that you'll make me grumpy
by repor^ng that I'm s^ll missing out on valuable rule claricaôns
AFTER I've spent hundreds of dollars on Mythus (I own between 2 & 5 copies
of each book).
:)
Take care,
Gary
Gary Spechko - hkp://www.crater.com/jag/

hkp://www.crater.com/avacal/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:09:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Tom, can we buy Mythus aver 7 years?

>>Mike, put away your bikerness for one second. If you honestly think, or
any
>>of these people on the board, that TSR will eventually revive Mythus, I can
>>only shake my head. Your game is safe folks. Its siing on your shelves
>>where the KG...er, sorry, TSR can never touch it. It lives with us. All
we
>>have to do is wait out the seven years and buy it up.

>What's the news on the 7 years? Do you mean that it is possible to buy
>Mythus from TSR aver 7 years?

>Harold Stringer
>biopharm@xs4all.nl

This was something that came up during talk on the AOL Greyhawk board and has
something to do with copyright laws. As I'm not too well versed in them, I
could be very, _very_ wrong. So anyone who knows beker should speak up now.
Anyway, there is said to be some hidden copyright clause that, if a company
does not use the materials under copyright in a period of seven years (???)
that these become public property. This would mean that, if TSR chooses to
squat on Mythus for that long and do _NOTHING_ with the material, it becomes
open for public use or purchase.

I don't remember all the details of such, so my explainaôn may seem very
sketchy. However, if there is a chance of bringing DJ back into the fold, or
having a deadline to do _something_ with the DJ material - even revamping
Aerth to AD&D - is just that: something.

If _anyone_ knows more on this sweet likle loophole (or can proove that I'm
full of shit - which is not unheard of) I, for one, would like to hear more.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:15:00 -0500

I would also suggest grabbing the Necropolis senario if you can. Even if you
never plan to run it, the senario gives you several things:

1) a working model of a _big_ Mythus senario. I always liked having
something that gave me a good example of how to do things, and this senario
was no excepôn.

2) The background info on AEgypt can be used for any Mythus seing. The
miltary and ecclesâl heirarchies are great, and some other parts are good
for ideas.

3) You get a ton of premade monsters, including undead and, more importantly,
demons. Also check out the Weretherios descripôn. These alone are nearly
worth the cover price.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:16:40 -0500


BTW, Sean. The Mythus Prime rules are included in the rst secôn of the
Mythus rulebook. You might skim through these anyway to begin familiarizing
yourself with certain details of the game (like terminology).

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:23:58 -0500

> >>>>Right, I would never switch gears while WITHIN a game session, or a
> gaming
> adventure. I think I'm going to try the intro adventure included, and then
> move from there into the Necropolis campaign with Advanced. Thanks for the
> info.<<<<
>
> WARNING............. Take it for what it is worth.

(but it's s^ll darn good advice)

> Although Necropolis was the only standalone adventure published for Mythus it
> is NOT a beginning adventure. If you take new players and new HPs into it
> you are seing yourself up for major heartburn. Add a new JM and you'll
> have a real morass.
>
> Do yourself and your players a favor and work up to it slowly.

That's part of why there are two (nearly) beginner scenarios on my web
site, as well as the sequel to the Prime adventure 'High Time at the
Winged Pig'. I am rather sorry that the third of the 'wing' series never
got distributed in any form..... :-(

The adventures are in:

hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/adventures/

(At some point, I'm going to nish wri^ng up the latest one I ran and
post it, too..... along with indexing the adventure seeds various list
members suggested along the way)


=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:28:13 -0700
Subject: Re: TSR & Mythus

At 02:46 PM 3/21/96 -0500, you wrote:
>I've been reading and wondering, when did TSR take over the DJ system? I
>thought DJ was rejected by TSR originally, so that Gary went to GDW or
>whatever to get it printed and distributed. What's the deal?

Gah... short version of the ov-told tale.

1> Gary writes Unhallowed (First DJ modjule)
2> Gary gets GDW to do it, but only if he does Mythus rst.

3> TSR start sueing Everyone at GDW, Gary's house, Dave's House, etc, for
copyright infringement (300 trumped-up charges).

4> Time passes... GDW runs out of money and just gives TSR the game, rather
than con^nuing the (totally frozen) court proceedings. There was some
sort of cash seklement, I think.

5> GDW can't recover from all this, and spends a year working out of it
Warehouse before it goes under.

6> Gary swears o paper RPG's for life and goes on to computer games, Dave
Newton (s^ll on this here list) goes on to QMS, makers of Rapture (tm).

7> Basically, everyone goes on. :)

8> Mythus material gets stored in a deep sub-basement in TSR's Siberia
Warehouses.

9> the Heart and Soul of Mythus live on on this List.

The End, did I miss any major points?
___
| \_/\/___ _____/_/ \_ 'exible.'"
| _ <| _>| /_\ | | ) )
| |_) | \| ` ' | \
__|____/|___|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:33:26 -0700


At 04:09 PM 3/21/96 -0500, you wrote:

>This was something that came up during talk on the AOL Greyhawk board and has
>something to do with copyright laws. As I'm not too well versed in them, I
>could be very, _very_ wrong. So anyone who knows beker should speak up now.
>Anyway, there is said to be some hidden copyright clause that, if a company
>does not use the materials under copyright in a period of seven years (???)
>that these become public property. This would mean that, if TSR chooses to
>squat on Mythus for that long and do _NOTHING_ with the material, it becomes
>open for public use or purchase.

Of course, if their asking price is even 10 percent of what they sank into
the lawyers on that asco... Watch out...

___
| \_/\/___ _____/_/ \_ 'exible.'"
| _ <| _>| /_\ | | ) )
| |_) | \| ` ' | \
__|____/|___|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:33:59 -0500

>All you really need is the Mythus book 1 (GDW ref 5000).
>Book 2, Mythus magic would help. Epic of Aerth is not, in my
>opinion, neccessary.
>Of course, you may have diculty obtaining these due to the legal
>acôn by T$R.

Ahem, you realize we have plenty of copies of these around.
You could order them from the Mail Order Hobby Shop all the way
up un^l it was closed, aver all, and the surplus just got
send back into the warehouse, aver all.

>Or, it could be a message with the intent of sovening people's paranoia

>enough to subsequently entrap them when they try. But we don't know any
>company that would engage in *those* kinds of tac^cs, now *do* we?

Or it could be a suggesôn from someone who is seriously sympathe^c
to the situaôn you are in.

>Oh, and BTW, welcome Sean. If you can stomach the covert and overt
>hos^lity, you are more than welcome here.

Well, I just hope that some of the people here realize that I am
an OK guy, and a fellow gamer, and not some sort of avatar of
evil. In fact, nobody at TSR even knows that I'm subscribed to
this list.

Peace.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 15:01:11 -0700

At 04:33 PM 3/21/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>All you really need is the Mythus book 1 (GDW ref 5000).
>>Book 2, Mythus magic would help. Epic of Aerth is not, in my
>>opinion, neccessary.
>>Of course, you may have diculty obtaining these due to the legal
>>acôn by T$R.
>
>Ahem, you realize we have plenty of copies of these around.
>You could order them from the Mail Order Hobby Shop all the way
>up un^l it was closed, aver all, and the surplus just got
>send back into the warehouse, aver all.

So, hypothe^cally, how would someone get ahold of the books now that they
are in the warehouse? And did they keep copies of Mythic Masters Magazine?

>Well, I just hope that some of the people here realize that I am
>an OK guy, and a fellow gamer, and not some sort of avatar of
>evil.

Of course not, Sean, don't be silly. Lucifer is the Avatar of evil on this
list :)

Doyce "Just call me Steve" Testerman
___
| \_/\/___ _____/_/ \_ 'exible.'"
| _ <| _>| /_\ | | ) )
| |_) | \| ` ' | \
__|____/|___|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 08:00:30 -0600
In-Reply-To: <199603210259.SAA04868@rho.ben2.ucla.edu> from "Chris Calvert" at
Mar 20, 96 06:59:49 pm

Thus spake Chris Calvert
> Are you guys crazy?

No.

> Don't you care about what T$R did to Gary and Steve,
> much less our game?

Again, no. I am kind of dissapointed that the game was killed, call me
mercenary, I don't care.

> What makes you think they give a shit about what you
> feel, or have, beyond your almighty dollar?

Nothing. What makes you feel that anyone else at GDW or even (Oh most holy)
Gary cares about more than your almighty dollar? The world is run by money,
while it is (and was for me) fashionable to deny worldly goods and money,
the reality is that money is important and it will run your life too one
day. If you want to be really cynical you could take the view that even
game designers that take an ac^ve intrest in what their fans want are
doing it to increase loyalty in their product which will help increase sales
and their prot.

Dan.
Tired of the Gary Worshipping that goes on here. Just play the game.


=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 19:07:01 -0500

>>What's the news on the 7 years? Do you mean that it is possible to buy
>>Mythus from TSR aver 7 years?
>
>>Harold Stringer
>>biopharm@xs4all.nl
>
>This was something that came up during talk on the AOL Greyhawk board and has
>something to do with copyright laws. As I'm not too well versed in them, I
>could be very, _very_ wrong. So anyone who knows beker should speak up now.
>Anyway, there is said to be some hidden copyright clause that, if a company
>does not use the materials under copyright in a period of seven years (???)
>that these become public property. This would mean that, if TSR chooses to
>squat on Mythus for that long and do _NOTHING_ with the material, it becomes
>open for public use or purchase.
>
>I don't remember all the details of such, so my explainaôn may seem very
>sketchy. However, if there is a chance of bringing DJ back into the fold, or
>having a deadline to do _something_ with the DJ material - even revamping
>Aerth to AD&D - is just that: something.
>
>If _anyone_ knows more on this sweet likle loophole (or can proove that I'm
>full of shit - which is not unheard of) I, for one, would like to hear more.

Okay...

This loophole doesn't apply to copyright at all.

Copyright lasts a long ^me. For Life, plus 75 years. In the case of the
Dangerous Journeys System, the copyright lasts un^l the company dies.
Since Omega Helios Ltd. and the other parês cut a deal with TSR, this
means that TSR owns it. And they own it un^l they transfer its ^tle, sell
it, or "die" as a corporaôn--and then, nobody can use it for 75 years,
unless transfer of ^tle occurs again.

I beleive you are thinking of Trademark Law. Trademarks are the things that
must be used so you don't lose them. If you do not produce any products
with a trademarked name, the name returns to public use, awai^ng the next
person to trademark it.

What does this mean for us?

If TSR refuses to use any of the Gygax material, and doesn't take advantage
of the name, in those few years, the names Unhallowed, Mythus, AErth,
Dangerous Journeys, Mythic Masters Magazine, etc..., are now usable by any
person in the book/RPG/Gaming/Comic/Media industry.

(Note--there are dierent classicaôns of Trademark Categories. For
instance, I could have Mythus Soap, Unhallowed TV's, or AErth-akes. Why I
would use those names to promote products is an unfathomable maker.)

HOWEVER, TSR s^ll owns the game SYSTEM, and can s^ll use it with another
name. Copyright s^ll belongs to TSR, eec^vely forever--at least longer
than any of us will live. You don't get rid of copyright law that easilly.
Simply put, TSR can sit on the game for a long ^me if they choose.

Likely, if TSR wants to exploit the assets, TSR will use the trademark name
in other things, an AD&D product named Unhallowed, a Card-Game called
Dangerous Journeys, etc.

Sorry--but them's the rules.
==================================================================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net

==================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 18:52:25 -0500
In-Reply-To: <960320162314_357003394@mail06>

On Wed, 20 Mar 1996, Sean K Reynolds wrote:

> All right, I want to familiarize myself with the game ...
> what are the "core rules" for the Mythus game? In other
> words, which products should I start with if I wanted to
> learn it? I think I am advanced enough to not need to
> start with the Mythus Prime rules, thank you.

Well, many people have already put in their contribuôns of advice, and
aver reading them over, I have my own buck & a quarter. (Hey, it's
inaôn man! ;-) )

First o, I would suggest trying it with a person who already knows the
system if possible. Even experienced gamers have been known to balk at
how long personna creaôn can take. It's much faster if you have
someone who knows everything you need to do by heart.

Secondly, Mythus and Mythus Magick are both necessary to begin game play,
though Mythus Magick less so if you aren't into spell-tossers. The
reason I say this is that not all K/S with cas^ngs have spells. I'm not
sure if this was meant to be tailoring towards Mythus Prime (which
excludes many K/S areas) or what. Either way, it's just beker to start
with a complete list. Beyond these two books, I really don't see any
reason to sink more money into the system un^l aver you've decided that
you really love Mythus and want to be a fana^cal JM or player like the
rest of us list-members. ;-)

If you have any quesôns, feel free to ask us!

--Ryan Snead
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu

"Resistance is fu^le. You will be assimilated."
--Borg collec^ve
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 19:35:05 -0500
Subject: Mythus-L posts.

So. Does anyone else get pos^ngs from the list totally out of sequence? I
frequenty get responses hours or even a day, ahead of the quesôn or
statement.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 22:37:24 -0500


Does that mean that there's a chance of geing books? I've got Mythus,
Mythus Magick, Epic of Aerth, Journeys 1-6 and MMM 1-6 (electronic) (yes, I
KNOW I'm lucky :), but would dearly love Necropolis and the Aerth Besâry.
And I'm certainly willing to pay for original stu.

>evil. In fact, nobody at TSR even knows that I'm subscribed to
>this list.

Hope you're not geing in trouble for associa^ng with the enemy or
something :) And oh yeah, if I'm not on the list for the Phaeree Besâry,
add me. And I honestly have some maêrial that I'm going to post on
Herbalism once I get past Physics presentaôns, poetry porolios, band
fes^vals, tennis season...anyway :)

Thanks all,
Charles Hagenbuch
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 23:56:52 -0500
Subject: House rules and stu

I picked up the Central Cas^ngs : Heroes of Legend 2nd ed. to use with
another game system and fell absolutely in love with it. When it came ^me
to start puing together Heroic Personas for a new game, I managed to talk
the JM into leing us use it for HP generaôn. It worked out beau^fully!
The way we use it is fairly simple. The supplement replaces most, but not
all, the background tables found in the rulebook. A variety of the
possibiliês can be considered quirks, so it takes care of the need to roll
those randomly. For that maker, it gives the JM a perfect guide in doling
them out personally, which is what the rules recommend all along. We use the
book before anything else is rolled or distributed. This way, we can use it
to our full advantage: giving us an idea for a Vocaônal area, how to
distribute Akribute points, and _especially_ bonus K/S Area allotment.
For JMs like me, who like every player to come up with a history for their
HP, its priceless. The background rolled is just ambiguous enough for the
player to decorate while giving the JM enough meat to plot and plan around.
Sure, while the player rolls, the JM has to make certain calls based around
his campaign. Not every roll is su^ble for every campaign, or star^ng
locaôn for that maker. S^ll, if you like for your HPs to have a usable
history upon concepôn, you can't beat this book.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 00:20:49 -0500
Subject: Re: No Subject

Mike... Don't unsubcribe. That's just what "THEY" want.

Wayne
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 21:49:41 +0000
Comments: Authen^cated sender is <sprrwhwk@mailhub1.wanet.net>

Subject: Phaeree Manual... Oh yeh... That thing, now I remember

Hello All....

For all those who cares about the mythus Phaeree manual. There has
been likle or no work done on it... I am now looking for a new group
of people you are really want to see this manual done. If there are
any of you wan^ng to send ^me working on this, please let me know
and I'll get you started... I s^ll am willing to to put in as much
^me in on this project ediing and cordina^ng as is needed to
complete it. I have already spent many hours on this and do mot want
to see this project as well as Mythus just get ignored... If anybody
is intrested, send me some e-mail. If the current list of volunteers
s^ll would like to invest thier ^me let me know... so far (as far
as I know) that has not been much... Sorry for the bitching, but
aver 3 1/2 months, not a single criker has been added. I would like
to see the group put out 3-4 crikers per person a month.

Daniel
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 01:02:29 -0500

Hi...it's me again...the central scru^nizer (ok...that's from Zappa)

Anyway, I was happily reading my cyclopean volumes of mail when I stumbled
upon an arcane reference to something called "The Phaeree Besâry". Could
someone tell me what it is? And by the way...sign me the hell up for it!!!

Thanks,
Wayne.

P.S What does a guy have to do to get items that were posted/mailed to this
list in the past. I know you folks have probably come up with some terric
stu. Even the mail is entertaining!!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 01:05:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Mythus-L posts.

Kelthar,

It happens to me, too. I think its an AOL-thing. :P

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 07:15:32 -0600

Wayne,

>P.S What does a guy have to do to get items that were posted/mailed to this
>list in the past. I know you folks have probably come up with some terric
>stu. Even the mail is entertaining!!

Currently the groups I am in are upda^ng and completeing the project of
"ushing" out the item rumurs as listed in the Aerth manual under
individual countries. Speaking for two others on the list (yes his name IS
Steve), we have been *very* busy and will complete the list when the last
four countries are done. Be prepared, its lengthy. ;)

The Phaeree project sounds great and should be supported, but currently the
two groups I am associated with have compleôns to revising K/S areas,
spell cas^ng, and Item creaôn (of which I have not concentrated nearly
enough ^me.) *whimper* When these projects reach compleôn to our
sa^sfacôn, they will be released for review and cri^cism. (although if
they survive our group of cri^cs and rule mongers they should be OK :) we Hope ) comments are always welcome and incouraged...

From ^me to ^me we will con^nue to release and re-release informaôn,
but if it becomes too repeta^ve let me know...

Thanks.

Steve (oh wait... *poke* *prod*...

Oh yeah, its AJ- (confusion is the state of mind expressed just before the
whole party is about to die)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 08:41:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Phaeree Manual... Oh yeh... That thing, now I remember
In-Reply-To: <199603220554.VAA15943@sd-dns-1.wanet.net>

On Wed, 22 Mar 1995, < Daniel Pickek> wrote:

> as I know) that has not been much... Sorry for the bitching, but
> aver 3 1/2 months, not a single criker has been added. I would like
> to see the group put out 3-4 crikers per person a month.

If I may point out, doing a *proper* job on the Phaeree creatures takes
^me. There are cultural notes which need to be researched, the powers
need to be checked (and re-checked) against legend/faerie tales, and it
doesn't hurt to include any and all informaôn one has about the
creature. Doing less is doing a disservice to the system and the creature.

The alterna^ve is to have a bunch of quickly-churned-out crikers with
legendary names which bear minimal resemblance to the myths and legends,
like the monsters in *many* gaming systems. Or even worse, ones which
are derived from earlier misrepresentaôns and thus propogate further
inaccuracies.

That's why it takes *me* a long ^me to do much with it, I want to do the
durn things right the *rst ^me*. That's why I'm s^ll working on the
!@#$%^&*() Sidhe. They're a bear to research right.

Mike "Steve" Phillips, mike@lawlib.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:52:50 -0500
Subject: Re: What do I need to start?/TSR & Mythus

>So, hypothe^cally, how would someone get ahold of the books now that they
>are in the warehouse? And did they keep copies of Mythic Masters Magazine?

Well, as the MOHS is closed, those things aren't for sale, unless
you're a retailer looking for back stock, and not all of _that_
is going to be available anyway. I don't know if there are any issues
of MMM around - I only know that the other DJ stu was there because I
saw it on the shelves of the MOHS.

>Gah... short version of the ov-told tale.

A couple of things you might want to include:

0a. Gary signs an agreement when he leaves TSR to not
create any games similar to AD&D. [Note: this may or may
not apply ... I have not goken the DJ books in my hand yet,
so I cannot make a comparison between the two to give my opinion
on whether this copyright infringement has any sort of ground
at all ... please don't jump on me (yet).]

>1> Gary writes Unhallowed (First DJ modjule)
>2> Gary gets GDW to do it, but only if he does Mythus rst.

2a. The game is released/was going to be released under the
name of "Dangerous Dimensions" ... with an abbreviaôn of "DD"

and being wriken by EGG, U C how TSR might B PO'd N go "#$%&!"?

>3> TSR start sueing Everyone at GDW, Gary's house, Dave's House, etc, for
>copyright infringement (300 trumped-up charges).

3a. Name is changed to Dangerous Journeys to avoid the trademark/
abbreviaôn conict. TSR con^nues to sue over copyright infringements.

3b. EGG becomes a fugi^ve from the law for about a month when
an akempt is made to serve him court papers. In other words,
he lev Wisconsin and disappeared.

etc., etc.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 12:39:15 -0500

Sean-
You mean you're NOT an avatar of evil?!?!? Damn, and I was just going to
ask you to join our club... :)

By the way, Mike Phillips:

How much space do you have on your site? I would like to post some of
the stu I've created on a web page, but I don't have enough space here
at UB. Would it be possible to con you into using some of your wonderful
space to include some of my fun stu?

Jesse

--Me, simply: Music:
Angela Bualo: TV: Games: Cathedral
ANGELa Bills: Always #1! Reboot Mythus Cel^c Frost
ANGEL Sabres: Love hurts! Outer Limits ARIA Solitude Aeturnus
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 12:49:40 -0500

Mike, Dan, etc...

I want to create new stu. Will you guys mind much if I create
something dierent, and add it to the Besâry? I don't have ^me to go
look up mythical/legendary creatures and as Mike said, "get the things
right the rst ^me." I like crea^ng dierent stu anyway.

Jesse (not yet been called Steve)

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:55:20 +0000
From: Daniel Pickek <Sprrwhwk@SPARROWHAWK.WANET.NET>

> On Wed, 22 Mar 1995, < Daniel Pickek> wrote:
>
> > as I know) that has not been much... Sorry for the bitching, but
> > aver 3 1/2 months, not a single criker has been added. I would
> > like to see the group put out 3-4 crikers per person a month.
>
> If I may point out, doing a *proper* job on the Phaeree creatures
> takes ^me. There are cultural notes which need to be researched,
> the powers need to be checked (and re-checked) against legend/faerie
> tales, and it doesn't hurt to include any and all informaôn one
> has about the creature. Doing less is doing a disservice to the
> system and the creature.
>
> The alterna^ve is to have a bunch of quickly-churned-out crikers
> with legendary names which bear minimal resemblance to the myths and
> legends, like the monsters in *many* gaming systems. Or even worse,
> ones which are derived from earlier misrepresentaôns and thus
> propogate further inaccuracies.

I understand the ^me involved and I have no problems with it or even
you taking that long, however many of the others have not even
started working on them...

> That's why it takes *me* a long ^me to do much with it, I want to
> do the durn things right the *rst ^me*. That's why I'm s^ll
> working on the !@#$%^&*() Sidhe. They're a bear to research right.

I think it is safe to say we would like all the crikers done right
the rst ^me... But so far I have sent out notes to people to nd
out how there are doing and if they need any reference books
quesôns...anything, and so far you are the only one that
consistantly replies...

Daniel.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 13:02:09 EST
In-Reply-To: <960322114713_452320828@emout05.mail.aol.com>; from "Sean K
Reynolds" at Mar 22, 96 11:52 am

> >So, hypothe^cally, how would someone get ahold of the books now that they
> >are in the warehouse? And did they keep copies of Mythic Masters Magazine?
>
> Well, as the MOHS is closed, those things aren't for sale, unless
> you're a retailer looking for back stock, and not all of _that_
> is going to be available anyway. I don't know if there are any issues
> of MMM around - I only know that the other DJ stu was there because I
> saw it on the shelves of the MOHS.

Hmmmm...so I might be able to go up to my local retailer and
get him to order it for me? That'd be cool.

> >Gah... short version of the ov-told tale.
>
> A couple of things you might want to include:
>
> 0a. Gary signs an agreement when he leaves TSR to not
> create any games similar to AD&D. [Note: this may or may
> not apply ... I have not goken the DJ books in my hand yet,
> so I cannot make a comparison between the two to give my opinion
> on whether this copyright infringement has any sort of ground
> at all ... please don't jump on me (yet).]

Didn't that agreement have a clause that said it only lasted
x number of years (7 or 8, I can't recall).

Something I just recently no^ced, really the only thing I
can nd that is a real problem, is similarity between the SEC table
on p. 59 and the old Social Status table of Unearthed Arcanna. It's
a slim similarity (there are the same amount of social classes (9),
divided the same, and have similar [though NOT equal] chances of
being rolled), but it is, unfortunately, there. Now, that's not to
say that I agree with TSR and EGG based DJ on AD&D, but it is one
area of similarity.
Of course, if you really want to be broad, there are other
similariês, but no more than other game systems have.

Lucifer >:} playing my own advocate

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 10:12:13 +0000

> Mike, Dan, etc...
>
> I want to create new stu. Will you guys mind much if I create
> something dierent, and add it to the Besâry? I don't have ^me
> to go look up mythical/legendary creatures and as Mike said, "get
> the things right the rst ^me." I like crea^ng dierent stu
> anyway.

As always new is GOOD, they will be added (in their nal form) to
the Phaeree Manual. I currently have the back secôn of the manual
ready to send to anybody, however this secôn contains creatures
that have already apeared elsewhere...

Daniel
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 21:44:11 +0100

Dear Sean,

At 16:33 21-03-96 -0500, you wrote:
(snip)
>evil. In fact, nobody at TSR even knows that I'm subscribed to
>this list.

Naughty, naughty ;)

Peace, fellow gamer.

Harold Stringer
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 21:44:24 +0100
Subject: Looking for Mythus Book 0 (Mythus Prime)

Hi all,

I'm looking for Mythus Book 0 (Mythus Prime) to complete my series. I've got
Mythus, Mythus Magick, Earth, AEgypt and the Besâry.

If I remember correctly from a while ago, someone wrote to the list that a
gameshop near him s^ll had Mythus Prime for sale. Does that s^ll apply?

Can anyone help me obtaining Mythus Prime?

Harold Stringer
biopharm@xs4all.nl
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 21:44:16 +0100
Subject: Re: Mythus-L posts.

At 19:35 21-03-96 -0500, you wrote:
>So. Does anyone else get pos^ngs from the list totally out of sequence? I
>frequenty get responses hours or even a day, ahead of the quesôn or
>statement.
>
>
Yes.

Harold Stringer
biopharm@xs4all.nl
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 14:42:36 -0800
From: Francisco Augspach <pancho0@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Lucifer ! your akenôn summoned !

HI!,
I am Pancho, I rst saw you on the AD&D list. Now I see that you are also
in the Mythus list. Here, I need a piece of advise from someone that knows
both games well.

I've been playing AD&D for a long ^me ( actually, I started with the D&D
ten years ago ). Of course, I found the game beyond words and almost built
an altar to it and Gary Gygax ( and Larry Elmore, too ).
Recently, my likle brother wanted a n game of his own and bought the rst
two Mythus books. I couldn't help going over them. I found that a lot of
things for which I had made house rules were done and developed. Besides,
the system seems to allow much more exibility ^ the game. I couldn't nd
one single area in which AD&D is clearly beker than it. Then again, I know
that Mythus allows more exibility because it says so right in the
introducôn where there's a small comparison between the two games.
Now, if you know both games good enough, what is your opinion. I think you
favor Mythus, you seem more familiar with Mythus rules than AD&D rules. But
tell me, what do you think? And why would you say so ?

Thank you,

Pancho
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 16:01:24 -0700
Subject: Re: Lucifer ! your akenôn summoned !

At 02:42 PM 3/22/96 -0800, you wrote:
>HI!,
>I am Pancho,
>Now, if you know both games good enough, what is your opinion. I think you
>favor Mythus, you seem more familiar with Mythus rules than AD&D rules. But
>tell me, what do you think? And why would you say so ?
>
>Thank you,
>
>Pancho

Hey Mike, can I repost your 'defense of Mythus' email you put up awhile back
for Pancho here?

___
| \_/\/____ ____/ _/ \_ 'exible.'"
| |_) | ___|/` _ \| \_/ \ --Richard Cross, Murder One
| _ <| __>| /_\ | |_) )
| |_) | \| ` ' | \
__|____/|____|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 15:11:20 -0800

Subject: regarding list projects
In-Reply-To: <v01530500ad77f31c23b5@[206.68.74.108]> from "John Schmidt" at
Mar 22, 96 07:15:32 am

Whew. Finally escaped both work and nals to catch up on a bit of email.
Say, just when did so many people named Steve join the list? It's geing
a bit confusing seeing my name pop up every other email message.

Oh, and I was dread..er..wai^ng for this to come up again:

> Currently the groups I am in are upda^ng and completeing the project of
> "ushing" out the item rumors as listed in the Aerth manual under
> individual countries. Speaking for two others on the list (yes his name IS
> Steve), we have been *very* busy and will complete the list when the last
> four countries are done. Be prepared, its lengthy. ;)

Ok, for those of you new to the list, John Teske organized a large
eort to put together rumored powers for the items listed under the
country descripôns in Epic of Aerth. It's virtually completed, but
I haven't goken the chance to nish it up for the past couple of
months. I'll plead temporary insanity due to workload.

However, now that nals are behind me, I want to get this nished up.
The list could stand some contribuôns to the game system anyway. ;)
A contributer (who shall remain nameless for now) has yet to get me
3 item descripôns, and I am redoing a few to take advantage of some
historical references the members of this list caught. Aver that,
I should be able to start releasing this to web sites and others. It
will be far too large to send directly to the list.

Oh, speaking of historical references, anyone know references for or
descripôns of Rhongomyant, King Arthur's spear? My iniâl cursory
search has come up empty.

Steve

Not an Avatar of Evil (yet), but denitely a Steve...
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 18:55:00 EST
Subject: Mythus vs. AD&D

Subject: Lucifer ! your akenôn summoned !

>Now, if you know both games good enough, what is your opinion. I think you
>favor Mythus, you seem more familiar with Mythus rules than AD&D rules. But
>tell me, what do you think? And why would you say so ?

1) A unied system of skill success determinaôn.
Everything you do revolves around the percen^le (except those
necessary things like damage assessment), which is modied to
various levels of diculty. In AD&D, you've got to get below a
certain number for a saving throw, above a certain number to hit,
etc.
2) Realism! The Mythus system simulates reality to a beker
degree than AD&D, without bogging an individual down in rules (like
RuleMaster). Weapon damage is more similar to what they did/do in
reality, the skill system reects a more realis^c breadth and
depth of character knowledge, and the akribute system . It also
permits for mistakes in spellcas^ng through the skill roll(s)
required for each cas^ng; in AD&D, spells occur preky much
automa^cally, without room for caster error. The magic system also
diverges from a Vancian 're and forget' style, and s^cks more
closely to what spellcas^ng has tradiônally been like.
3) Combinatory quality. Mythus combines the best of many
dierent types of systems into one unied whole. It has elements
of a class-based system, in the usage of Vocaôns, and of a
skill-based system, which AD&D can't support in it's current form.
It also combines a level-based magic system, like AD&D, and a
point-based magic system.

Hmmmmm...those are the big ones. I'm certain there are
others I'm forgeing and/or haven't realized. In my opinion,
Mythus is the best gaming system in existence right now. It's only
problem, I think, is the lack of professional support, but I'm
working on that one. :)

Lucifer >:}

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 19:00:55 -0500

>A couple of things you might want to include:
>
>0a. Gary signs an agreement when he leaves TSR to not
>create any games similar to AD&D. [Note: this may or may
>not apply ... I have not goken the DJ books in my hand yet,
>so I cannot make a comparison between the two to give my opinion
>on whether this copyright infringement has any sort of ground
>at all ... please don't jump on me (yet).]

Some brief comments on this Sean.

1) Similar is a rela^ve term.

2) With the other similar games out there, we've got a lot to work with
and DJ itself looks rather dierent than, say, Tunnels and Trolls or
even something like GURPS.

3) If what Loren Wiseman and Gary Gygax told me is correct, the

4) Most importantly--the moral issue. The bokom line to /any/ form of
lawsuit comes down to this. Somebody chooses to sue or not to sue.
Like somebody from FASA said, the lawsuit was "both business and
personal".

As such, from this person's perspec^ve, this was needless,
and all it's resulted in is bad feelings towards TSR, a loss of a good
game company (GDW--indirectly), and squishing the work of a designer
who arguably was the seed from where the tree grew.

>>1> Gary writes Unhallowed (First DJ modjule)
>>2> Gary gets GDW to do it, but only if he does Mythus rst.
>
>2a. The game is released/was going to be released under the
>name of "Dangerous Dimensions" ... with an abbreviaôn of "DD"
>and being wriken by EGG, U C how TSR might B PO'd N go "#$%&!"?

I will agree w/ya there. A likle too much. Then again, some^mes its nice
to have a bit of

>3a. Name is changed to Dangerous Journeys to avoid the trademark/
>abbreviaôn conict. TSR con^nues to sue over copyright infringements.
>
>3b. EGG becomes a fugi^ve from the law for about a month when
>an akempt is made to serve him court papers. In other words,
>he lev Wisconsin and disappeared.
>

3b. is in error. According to Gary, in January of 1992, Gary, Gail and Alex
moved down to New Orleans. They found an apt. in Mandeville, and were
planning to purchase a house. But they couldn't sell the residence in
Likle Lake Geneva quick enough, and lost the oer.

Mean^me the suit hits, and Gary's not around. He decides to return home
while this suit is going on, visi^ng the in-laws. Gary comes home,
awai^ng the processes server. A week later, server arrives.

==================================================================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net

==================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 18:05:23 -0700
Subject: Re: regarding list projects
In-Reply-To: <199603222311.PAA19403@elaine17.Stanford.EDU>

On Fri, 22 Mar 1996, Steven Gullerud wrote:

> Oh, speaking of historical references, anyone know references for or
> descripôns of Rhongomyant, King Arthur's spear? My iniâl cursory
> search has come up empty.
>
I think it's probably in either the Mabonogion or La Morte
D'Arthur. It's not as much of a legendary ar^fact as Excalibur, though
.. unless you buy the story that it's actually the Spear of Des^ny.

Chris Davies.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 21:35:11 -0500
Subject: Mythus Prime

I wasn't aware there was a Book Zero. Could someone ll me in? All this ^me
I thought people were talking about the Mythus Core rules, from book 1.

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 23:54:56 -0800
Subject: Re: Looking for Mythus Book 0 (Mythus Prime)

Harold Stringer, Ridascreen-Biopharm B.V. wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm looking for Mythus Book 0 (Mythus Prime) to complete my series. I've got
> Mythus, Mythus Magick, Earth, AEgypt and the Besâry.
>
> If I remember correctly from a while ago, someone wrote to the list that a
> gameshop near him s^ll had Mythus Prime for sale. Does that s^ll apply?
>
> Can anyone help me obtaining Mythus Prime?
>
> Harold Stringer
> biopharm@xs4all.nl

I think I can get it for you. I'm not the original poster, but I've seen it near
me. Let me know and I can pick it up if it's s^ll there (can nd out within a
day of no^ce).

-Zoltan
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 09:47:36 PST
Subject: Spear of Des^ny

> I think it's probably in either the Mabonogion or La Morte
>D'Arthur. It's not as much of a legendary ar^fact as Excalibur, though
>.. unless you buy the story that it's actually the Spear of Des^ny.

Which would make it Irish. [Fascina^ng] In which case, you all might
want to check out an illustrated sovcover called "The Book of Conquests"
by Jim Fitzpatrick. It's a excellent adaptaôn of Irish legend that
would be really neat as a campaign.

Dave=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 13:17:50 -0700
Subject: Re: Spear of Des^ny
In-Reply-To: <Chameleon.4.00.960323095209.dirk@dirk.dirk.mindspring.com>

On Sat, 23 Mar 1996, Dave Newton wrote:

>
> > I think it's probably in either the Mabonogion or La Morte

> >D'Arthur. It's not as much of a legendary ar^fact as Excalibur, though
> >.. unless you buy the story that it's actually the Spear of Des^ny.
>
> Which would make it Irish. [Fascina^ng] In which case, you all might
> want to check out an illustrated sovcover called "The Book of Conquests"
> by Jim Fitzpatrick. It's a excellent adaptaôn of Irish legend that
> would be really neat as a campaign.
>
Uh, not that Spear of Des^ny ... I meant the one used by Casca
Longinius to kill a certain Judean prophet and healer ...

Chris Davies.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 19:11:34 -0500
Subject: Looking for Items

I'm interested in any of you who might be able to sell me a copy of the
Beasâry, Journeys #5,6, or the MMM #1-6. If you think you might be able to,
reply to me directly at Josuah@aol.com. Thanks. I cannot guarantee that I'll
be able to purchase it from you, but am interested in my opôns.
Meanwhile, I'll be searching some bookstores, thought I doubt I'll nd
something. :(

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 21:52:10 -0500
From: Ian Danton <PenguinToo@AOL.COM>

I'm just going to stop lurking long enough to point out that the Mabinogion
is actually Welsh not Irish (I hope there are no Welshmen around otherwise
you've just caused oence :-) at least you didn't say it was English - then
it would have got really hot). "Mabinogion" actually means 'Tales of Youth'.
I've got a copy of La Morte D'Arthur somewhere. When I nd it I'll have a
look for references to Rhongomyant.

Anyway, back to the shadows <exits stage lev>

Yours,

Ian
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 20:11:21 -0700

In-Reply-To: <960323215209_453318556@mail06>

On Sat, 23 Mar 1996, Ian Danton wrote:

> I'm just going to stop lurking long enough to point out that the Mabinogion
> is actually Welsh not Irish (I hope there are no Welshmen around otherwise
> you've just caused oence :-) at least you didn't say it was English - then
> it would have got really hot). "Mabinogion" actually means 'Tales of Youth'.
> I've got a copy of La Morte D'Arthur somewhere. When I nd it I'll have a
> look for references to Rhongomyant.
>
I think what Dave meant was that the Spear of Des^ny is Irish ...
And I've recently discovered that there's a beker term for the
weapon *I* was referring to ... the Holy Spear of Hapsburg. Ring any bells?

Chris Davies, of Welsh ancestry ... and English, and Scoish, and Irish,
and Brekon, and ... you get the idea ...
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 19:13:25 -0800
Subject: Re: Mythus vs. AD&D

Well, Lucifer, I guess you're right in those three points; even if you
weren't I couldn't possibly argue, I'm not familiar with the Mythus rules.
But of course I won't take anyone's decision as mine un^l I have studied
the thing myself.
Besides, I can tell that you're pro-Mythus, yet you do play AD&D. You claim
that Mythus has a beker system than any other game ( and it is probably
true to me ) yet you some^mes go back to the AD&D. What do you nd good
about the AD&D ? I am not trying to ame anybody, but all the views I read
about Mythus vs. AD&D were wriken by pro-Mythus; and they all expressed you
three points in some other way. Now I would like to see the other side of
the token.
Obviously, a lot more people play AD&D than Mythus. That, to me, is a point
because it means that the game is more developed ( dierent seings,
Spelljammer, DL, FR, DarkSun, PlanScape, etc. ) and you are most likely to
meet somebody that plays the same game ( I like mee^ng fellow gamers and
talking about past adventures ). But, of course, that's doesn't have much to
do with how the game is done, except that it is good enough for a lot of
people to play it. Don't take me wrong; I listen to classical music, I'm
100% sure it's the best music, yet most people listen to modern music. I'm
trying to say that you don't necessarily need the best quality to move the
masses.
Well, I am not looking for any defence of Mythus post; in fact, I am a AD&D
gamer being lured by Mythus. What I actually need is a defence for AD&D; but
in this list I am looking for a fair judgment. There must be someone that
switched games somewhere and knows both preky well ( that you, Lucifer ? )
Well, Thank you for your ^me; that was actually longer than I expected.

Pancho
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 22:50:36 EST
In-Reply-To: <199603240313.TAA08873@ix2.ix.netcom.com>; from "Francisco
Augspach" at Mar 23, 96 7:13 pm

> Besides, I can tell that you're pro-Mythus, yet you do play AD&D. You claim
> that Mythus has a beker system than any other game ( and it is probably
> true to me ) yet you some^mes go back to the AD&D. What do you nd good
> about the AD&D ? I am not trying to ame anybody, but all the views I read
> about Mythus vs. AD&D were wriken by pro-Mythus; and they all expressed you
> three points in some other way. Now I would like to see the other side of
> the token.
> Obviously, a lot more people play AD&D than Mythus. That, to me, is a point
> because it means that the game is more developed ( dierent seings,
> Spelljammer, DL, FR, DarkSun, PlanScape, etc. ) and you are most likely to
> meet somebody that plays the same game ( I like mee^ng fellow gamers and
> talking about past adventures ). But, of course, that's doesn't have much to
> do with how the game is done, except that it is good enough for a lot of
> people to play it. Don't take me wrong; I listen to classical music, I'm
> 100% sure it's the best music, yet most people listen to modern music. I'm
> trying to say that you don't necessarily need the best quality to move the
> masses.

You basically hit the mark. When my previous campaign ended
rather abruptly (it was an Earthdawn game), I decided to put the
next game system I'd run to a vote of the players. The one game
they could agree on to any degree was AD&D, and mostly because of
their familiarity with it. That, major product support, and
(periodically) well wriken campaign/adventure material make AD&D an
easier game to run and play. Now, all of these things Mythus could
have, if TSR were to re-publish it, of course :)

Lucifer >:}

=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 06:53:40 +0100

At 23:54 22-03-96 -0800, you wrote:
>I think I can get it for you. I'm not the original poster, but I've seen it
near
>me. Let me know and I can pick it up if it's s^ll there (can nd out within a
>day of no^ce).
>
>-Zoltan
>
If you would be so kind, I would like to know what the books cost and what
transport would cost. If possible I would like to buy 2 to 4 books of Mythus
Prime.

Thanks,

Harold Stringer
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 14:03:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Stellar Catalogue/Phaeree Manual

Hey gang,

Just two quick notes.

1) Anyone looking for that Near Star List in .DBF format should let me
know and I'll mail it to you. I know one person had asked for it a long
^me ago but I managed to delete the post before mailing it...so if
that's you, ask me again, and I'll try not to be such a putz.

2) Regarding the Phaeree Manual, Daniel is right to chas^se us about
taking so long, but it is true that those of us bothering to do research
on these crikers probably have some work ahead of us. The list of
crikers I got contained maybe two creatures I'd ever heard of - and I've
heard of a lot - and most of them I s^ll haven't been able to nd.
(Dave, do you have *any* idea where some of these crikers came from?!?).
And I might point out that I sent you at least one criker with my rst
mail to you, though it was a rough drav and you told me to work on it some
more. So that's what I'm doing.

Speaking of the Manual, since you're doing it in Word 6, why don't you
separate that monstrosity into smaller documents and use the Master
Document feature?

3) Anyone interested in some *very* cursory notes on the Slavic pantheon
(like name and domain), just ask, and I'll tell you what I've found (been
poking around in that area lately).

OK, o to work on Serbo-Croaân, a C++ program, and just maybe a
Phaeree or two.

Ciao,
Patrick M.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:28:58 EST
Reply-To: Je Sharpe <jsharpe@portal.ca>
From: Je Sharpe <jsharpe@PORTAL.CA>

Hey all!

>Well, I am not looking for any defence of Mythus post; in fact, I
>am a AD&D gamer being lured by Mythus. What I actually need is a
>defence for AD&D; but in this list I am looking for a fair
>judgment. There must be someone that switched games somewhere and
>knows both preky well ( that you, Lucifer ? ) Well, Thank you
>for your ^me; that was actually longer than I expected.

As with many here, I've been rpg'n for quite some ^me (I'm
feeling a bit old when I age myself this way) and as with others
started my gaming experience with AD&D. I played it for over a
decade then dropped it when the 2nd ed. seemed to disillusion me.
I haven't looked back since. :-) Mostly nowadays, I play
Mythus.

When the game rst hit the stores (up here in Canada), I quickly
bought my copy. Much of the reason for my iniâl excitement was
the name on the cover. My. Gygax, of course. :-) Within my
roleplaying experience, he was the god amongst us mortals.

Well, as soon as I started to read the rules I became intrigued
(and not a bit excited to begin playing). The rules of Dangerous
Journeys contrasted or paralleled EGG's wri^ngs in the early
Dragon magazines. For instance, in a Jan. 1980 ar^cle (Dragon
#33) he compared the "...internal power, or manna, system where
each spell-caster uses energy from with to eect magic, requires
assigning a total point value to each such characters manna, and
a cost in points to each spell" with the AD&D mnemonic spell
system, or what he referred to as the 'Vancian' system, where

"Magic works because certain key words and phrases unlock energy
from elsewhere." Then there was the character social class issue
from May 1979 (Dragon #25), in which he shows a weakness or
failing (in my opinion) that TSR (Lake Geneva Tac^cal Studies
Associaôn, I believe) had no cultural and social background in
its two prime products.

There are many other similariês and many opposites to what I
have in my Mythus rules. Yet, since these wri^ngs were from a
dierent ^me, a dierent gaming market, and (probably) a
dierent EGG - its amazing how much of DJ can be seen in a 15
year-old mag. Most of the wri^ngs I read from him are "why" he
chose the path he did, while being open enough to compare with
other ideas. Those 'other' ideas are what, I believe', Mythus
became. And in essense, proves that the game of AD&D was
very dierent from DJ - in one of the creators own wri^ngs.

In the sword and fantasy genre, I don't believe AD&D and DJ have
anything in common. They are dierent games made by the same
person (I'm not belikling others contribuôns, sorry for the
generalizaôn). It seems to me, EGG had learned from his
previous experience within the RPG world and created a whole new
exci^ng engine for geeks like me to enjoy. :-)

Its been years since I opened a T$R product, and years since
anyone had the balls to ask me to play one of those products (at
least those that know me). Gone are the days when I found AD&D
exci^ng and new, with Mythus I again found a bit of that. I
used to modify the combat with AD&D (who didn't), and as someone
menôned, it shows a failing within the system if it appears a
change is being cons^tuted on a broad scale. Contrary to what
EGG wrote in the July 1978 issue (Dragon #16), when he
compared realism to game logic, I think he has created a more
'realis^c' game with Mythus than could ever be conceived in any
variaôn of AD&D.

I have likle thought or feeling lev for T$R and don't much like
their products or players. But I always enjoy a good
conversaôn with 'lesser' beings and their peky thoughts. <eg>

Un^l later...

Plug: Just moved to Vancouver, Canada in the last two weeks and am looking
for a new gaming group - anyone wanna play Mythus?

--
Je "Caesar" Sharpe <jsharpe@portal.ca>

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Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 13:08:27 -0800

Harold Stringer, Ridascreen-Biopharm B.V. wrote:
> If you would be so kind, I would like to know what the books cost and what
> transport would cost. If possible I would like to buy 2 to 4 books of Mythus
> Prime.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Harold Stringer

I'll let you know on Monday.

-zoltan
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:37:24 -0500

Zoltan, if you could also let me know if I would be able to get a copy, I'd
appreciate it. Thanks.

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 00:41:31 -0800
Subject: Mythus Book 0

Wesley Miaw wrote:
>
> Zoltan, if you could also let me know if I would be able to get a copy, I'd
> appreciate it. Thanks.
>
> -Josuah

Well, I may have goken everyone's hopes up for naught. I checked today and they
only have the JM screen, Necroplis, Beasâry and Epic of AErth in stock. I got
the Mythus Prime book there not a few weeks ago, so I had hope....

I might be able to part with my copy (I never intended to use Prime rules, just
wanted to complete "the collecôn") if one of you is desperate for the rules.

-zoltan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 17:26:25 +0100

Hi Patrick, at 14:03 24-03-96 -0500, you wrote:
>Hey gang,
>
>3) Anyone interested in some *very* cursory notes on the Slavic pantheon
>(like name and domain), just ask, and I'll tell you what I've found (been
>poking around in that area lately).
>

I'm very interested in the Slavic Pantheon, as my current campaign has moved
into that region.

Due to a cry "Oh God, please help", now one of my players suddenly found him
in the akenôn of A SLAVIC GOD. He doesn't know which one it was, but
he/she helped him out of a desparate situaôn in trade for......

However, I didn't have the ^me to look up the Slavic pantheon. So I don't
know either which God(ess) oered a helping hand. Now the player is
wondering what his HP has got into, and wants to know more about the God(ess).

Any help/suggesôns are appreciated.

Harold Stringer.
biopharm@xs4all.nl
_____________________________________________________________________

Work: Private:
1315 KT Almere Tel/Fax +31 - (0)36 53 64 798

The Netherlands
Tel +31 - (0)36 53 43 445
Fax +31 - (0)36 53 47 265


_____________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 12:57:43 -0500

At 05:26 PM 3/25/96 +0100, Harold Stringer, Ridascreen-Biopharm B.V. wrote:
>Hi Patrick, at 14:03 24-03-96 -0500, you wrote:
>>Hey gang,
>>
>>3) Anyone interested in some *very* cursory notes on the Slavic pantheon
>>(like name and domain), just ask, and I'll tell you what I've found (been
>>poking around in that area lately).
>>
>
>I'm very interested in the Slavic Pantheon, as my current campaign has moved
>into that region.
>
>Due to a cry "Oh God, please help", now one of my players suddenly found him
>in the akenôn of A SLAVIC GOD. He doesn't know which one it was, but
>he/she helped him out of a desparate situaôn in trade for......
>
>However, I didn't have the ^me to look up the Slavic pantheon. So I don't
>know either which God(ess) oered a helping hand. Now the player is
>wondering what his HP has got into, and wants to know more about the God(ess).
>

Slavic Pantheon has a buncha gods, but unfortunately there are precious
likle wriken records of them.

Most Interes^ng on is the "Grandmother" known as Baba Yaga. (Yes, of the
AD&D Hut fame). She would do favors, but exact prices for such creaôns.
And, yes, she is evil. She doesn't go about Killing peasants though, and
will even be helpful at ^mes if treated with respect.

Perun is the "Chief God" (more or less), the god of thunder and the storm.
I could see them going on a mission.

I have some info on the Slavic Gods--but rather than pos^ng them all, why
not tell me exactly what happened in the campaign in detail, and I can give
you some ^ps.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 14:39:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Mythus Book 0

<<
Well, I may have goken everyone's hopes up for naught. I checked today and
they
only have the JM screen, Necroplis, Beasâry and Epic of AErth in stock. I
got
the Mythus Prime book there not a few weeks ago, so I had hope....

I might be able to part with my copy (I never intended to use Prime rules,
just
wanted to complete "the collecôn") if one of you is desperate for the
rules.
>>

What about the JM Screen and Beasâry. If you could get a copy of those for
me, I'd really appreciate it. Let me know prices and whatever. Thanks.
As for the Mythus 0, I don't really need it, but it would be nice to have,
as you said, to complete the collecôn. Or for my players who don't like
reading, if I ever get players. Thanks again.

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 17:32:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Slavic Pantheon (a bit long)

OK, so here's a piece of the text I had typed up as an overview of the
Slavic pantheon:

Perun (also known as Perkunas to the Lithuanians), widely worshipped
un^l the
10th century, was the chief god of the pantheon. Wielder of thunderbolts,
a
mighty bow and an axe, he was the god of weather and war. His head was
silver
and his mustache gold. His worship was foremost among the noble class.
His
qualiês became associated with the Prophet Elijah by the Orthodox Slavs.

Volos (or Veles) was the god of cakle, wealth, and wind, as well as the
god of
oaths. His domain also included the dead and ocks, and he was the
patron of
poets and singers. He was originally a mighty warrior, but the coming of
Chrisânity saw him stripped of his marâl stance likle by likle
un^l he
became but a simple shepherd. Although Chrisânity pushed his worship
out of
the ciês, Volos con^nued to be held in high regard by the peasantry.
Possibly
a Varangian (Russian name for Viking) god, he was transformed into St. Vlas.

The god of the sky was Svarog. The name comes from the root _svar_, which
means
'bright' or 'clear.' He had two children, Dazhbog and Svarogich, and was
thus
the 'father of the gods'. Some^mes he would be lighted by the sun's
rays, at
other ^mes he might be covered with dark clouds and surrounded with
lightning.
Through lightning he gave the earth the divine giv of re, and he could
call
his son Dazhbog by par^ng the storm clouds. Svarogich, whose name means
'son of
Svarog', was the god of re. He was created from the lightning of Svarog
striking the earth. Dazhbog was the Slav's sun god and is oven
considered the
progenitor of the Russian people. He lived in a golden palace in a land
of
eternal summer in the east, and would mount his brilliant chariot every
morning
which would be pulled by re-breathing horses across the sky. The Sun
god
punished the wicked and rewarded men of virtue. Khors was also recognized
as a
god of the sun.

Myesyats was the Moon. Some^mes Myesyats was portrayed as the bald old
uncle of
Dazhbog, others called Myesyats the wife of Dazhbog. The Moon is appealed
to to
cure illnesses and sickness.
Mokosh' was the great goddess of fer^lity, bounty and moisture, chiey
among
the East Slavs. Some saw Mokosh' as the god of small domes^c animals.
Simar'gl'
was also a fer^lity deity, and Stribog was the god of the winds, cold
and frost
for the East Slavs. Preda^ng even these pagan deiês were Byelobog and
Chernobog, or the White God and the Black God, part of a las^ng dualist
mythology among the Slavs. The former was the god of day and light and
the
laker the deity of night and darkness.

The pagan religion of the people had no priests per se, only the volkhvy,
and
they dedicated no temples to the pagan deiês' worship. However, the
upper
classes must have had a more organized form of religion, with some
temples
dedicated to the dierent deiês recognized by the state.

******

Keep in mind these are only the gods of the Slavs, and certainly not all
of them. Baba Yaga, for instance, I would not consider a god since she
was not worshiped. There are certainly many creatures like her which
defy categorizaôn. Also keep in mind these are 'pan-Slavic' deiês
and may have dierent incarnaôns of powers depending on what part of
Slavdom you're talking about.

Unfortunately, most of our knowledge of the pantheon came to us from
Orthodox writers who had unfavorable views of the pagan gods (not that
that's a new story) and only ves^ges of their descripôns remain. For
example, we have a chronicler's account of some totems Prince Vladimir of
Rus' erected to the pagan deiês shortly before its Chrisânizaôn in
989. The chronicler tells us Vladimir erected six likenesses
of deiês, those of Perun, Khors, Dazhbog, Stribog, Simar'gl', and Mokosh'.
Other than that...

Hope this helps. As a minor Slavicist, I apologize to other Slavicists
for my sloppy transcripôn system!

Do svidania,
Patrick
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 19:53:06 -0500

Earlier today I wrote:

<<
What about the JM Screen and Beasâry. If you could get a copy of those for
me, I'd really appreciate it. Let me know prices and whatever. Thanks.
>>

Forget about the JM Screen, I got GM and JM confused again, and I already
have the GM/JM Screen. But I'm s^ll interested in the Beasâry. Thanks.

-Josuah <-- says thanks a lot because it's nice to do so. =)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 23:13:05 -0800

> What about the JM Screen and Beasâry. If you could get a copy of those for
> me, I'd really appreciate it. Let me know prices and whatever. Thanks.
> As for the Mythus 0, I don't really need it, but it would be nice to have,
> as you said, to complete the collecôn. Or for my players who don't like
> reading, if I ever get players. Thanks again.
>
> -Josuah

I think the Besâry was about $10 and the screen was $5 (not sure about that
one). If you can let me know if you want them, let me know by Noon PST and I can
get them (hopefully) tommorow.

-zoltan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 23:16:10 -0800

Wesley Miaw wrote:
>
> Earlier today I wrote:
>
> <<
> What about the JM Screen and Beasâry. If you could get a copy of those for
> me, I'd really appreciate it. Let me know prices and whatever. Thanks.
> >>
>
> Forget about the JM Screen, I got GM and JM confused again, and I already
> have the GM/JM Screen. But I'm s^ll interested in the Beasâry. Thanks.
>
> -Josuah <-- says thanks a lot because it's nice to do so. =)

Ok, sorry I replied to the rst message before seeing this one. Just let me
know as early as possible.

-zoltan
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 14:47:13 -0500
X-To: zoltan@slip.net

Zoltan:
Yes, I'd like you to get the Beasâry for me. I'm sending this to you via
both the Mythus List and your e-mail address, since I don't know if I can get
it to your e-mail address yet. If it does, we should con^nue this in
private, since I'll need to know where you live, and where I live, so that I
can send you a check, and me the book. Let me know how much to send you and
whatever, and thanks for the service. :)

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 21:23:13 +0100

Dear John, at 12:57 25-03-96 -0500, you wrote:
(snip)
>Slavic Pantheon has a buncha gods, but unfortunately there are precious
>likle wriken records of them.
>
>Most Interes^ng on is the "Grandmother" known as Baba Yaga. (Yes, of the
>AD&D Hut fame). She would do favors, but exact prices for such creaôns.
>And, yes, she is evil. She doesn't go about Killing peasants though, and
>will even be helpful at ^mes if treated with respect.
>
>Perun is the "Chief God" (more or less), the god of thunder and the storm.
>I could see them going on a mission.
>
>I have some info on the Slavic Gods--but rather than pos^ng them all, why
>not tell me exactly what happened in the campaign in detail, and I can give
>you some ^ps.

Some short campaign background.
The game started with a Find-and-Retrieve mission for a Tome, that
went completely wrong. The HPs were supposed to enter the dwellings of a
hermit, locate the room where the Tome was kept, and bring it back to their
"OPDRACHTGEVER". However, they were not careful enough and triggered a
Random-Door, which transported them to Aztek.
In Aztek, without knowing (even now) they ran into a death-cult on
their quest for a door back to AEropa. Eventually, they tracked down a
priest/mage that was willing to help them, in trade for a "minor" favour.
While performing this minor favour, obtaining one of the most holy Ar^facts
of this Death Cult, the HPs ran into serious trouble, wringing a "Oh God,
please help me!" from the HP Abdwana (a atheist-Black Mage). By Jove, how
scared he was when his prayer was answered! Their predicament was divinely
reduced to more human proporôns, while Abdwana was told that he by this
God(ess) who preferred to remain anonymous, that would be presented with the
bill in the near future.
Aver some adventuring, they managed to get back to AEropa, and
arrived via a temporary Door in Bulgaria. Not the place they came from, but
beker that remaining in Aztek, and Bulgaria is known to two of the HPs in
the party.
At the moment, the atheist Black Mage fervently prays every night to
a God(ess) he doesn't know in hope of learning more of his so suddenly
acquired Ethos, and trying to alleviate the burden of the assignment to come....

So, in a short moment, I generated a lot of problems for myself as
JM. Up ^ll now, I have circumnavigated anything related to religion, to
keep the game manageble for me (I don't have much ^me to prepare scenario's
for our group). Now I have to delve into the wealth of informaôn that is
related to Religion, Pantheons, Priests and Priestly Magick.
Especially the Pantheons are a bother. I've been working on the
Aztek pantheon, but this got stuck in the stadium of very scetchy notes.

The problem is how to incorporate this God(ess) into the game,
assign the God(ess) to a pantheon, and nding a suitable assignment for the
atheist that was foolish enough to Request Divine Aid.
What I'm thinking of, is to have the Aztek God(ess) transfer his
debt to a Slavic God(ess) for some Divine Purpose that will not be revealed
to the HPs for ^me to come. The Slavic God(ess) feels cheated by the
quality of his/her new convert (as was promised by the Aztek God).
Now I need a nice assignment for the HP (a Black Mage) that will
make him pissed on the Slavic God(ess) so he will try to get back at
Him/Her. Then he will learn why his soul was sold to this Slavic God(ess).
If I know the player well, without doubt he will then try to get even with
this Aztek God(ess).

Any suggesôns for Gods/Goddesses, and suitable ideas for
assignments? Comments are welcome.

BTW, the party consists of:
- Abdwana, the atheist Black Mage
- Calla, a female physical Thief
- Noressa, an female Assassin
- Love, an Assassin
- Moku, a Mercenary

Bye for now,

Harold Stringer
_____________________________________________________________________

Work: Private:
1315 KT Almere Tel/Fax +31 - (0)36 53 64 798
The Netherlands
Tel +31 - (0)36 53 43 445
Fax +31 - (0)36 53 47 265


_____________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 20:50:12 -0500

> In Aztek, without knowing (even now) they ran into a death-cult on
>their quest for a door back to AEropa. Eventually, they tracked down a
>priest/mage that was willing to help them, in trade for a "minor" favour.
>While performing this minor favour, obtaining one of the most holy Ar^facts
>of this Death Cult, the HPs ran into serious trouble, wringing a "Oh God,
>please help me!" from the HP Abdwana (a atheist-Black Mage). By Jove, how
>scared he was when his prayer was answered! Their predicament was divinely
>reduced to more human proporôns, while Abdwana was told that he by this
>God(ess) who preferred to remain anonymous, that would be presented with the
>bill in the near future.
> What I'm thinking of, is to have the Aztek God(ess) transfer his
>debt to a Slavic God(ess) for some Divine Purpose that will not be revealed
>to the HPs for ^me to come. The Slavic God(ess) feels cheated by the
>quality of his/her new convert (as was promised by the Aztek God).
> Now I need a nice assignment for the HP (a Black Mage) that will
>make him pissed on the Slavic God(ess) so he will try to get back at
>Him/Her. Then he will learn why his soul was sold to this Slavic God(ess).
>If I know the player well, without doubt he will then try to get even with
>this Aztek God(ess).
>
> Any suggesôns for Gods/Goddesses, and suitable ideas for
>assignments? Comments are welcome.

Three Gods or En^tes which your mage would be indebted to come to mind.
Since the Aztek en^ty was evil and demonic, so would the Slavic Counterpart.

Chernobog--Black God, nega^ve half of the spiritual. Represents Dark,
Evil, Death and Destrucôn. This would be a ne counterpart to the Aztek
god. This creature would delight in causing problems.

Koshchei the Deathless--Evil En^ty, some^mes appears as a Rep^le, other
^mes as a bony human. I have no other knowledge of him other than he was a
good horseman.

Baba Yaga--Evil, Death, Dark Magick.

My idea--pick Koshchei. This would allow for direct interacôn between the
HP and the MPG, since Chernobog is a Creator Deity (along with counterpart
Byelobog, whose clashing forces created the universe and Svarog) and thus
removed from most. Baba Yaga might be worshipped, but she does more direct
interacôn--I suspect she's a Demigoddess or Minor Goddess.

How about this. Put the Black Mage on a quest for a dark tome of create
Dark Knowledge, found in a dark wizard's guild. Make the HP suspect that
he's going to get the tome for himself, but have the god (via an agent or
intervenôn) destroy it, since the god is trying geing back at these guys.

Other than that, I'd need to know what mo^vates the HP.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 10:21:30 -0500
Subject: T$R Law suit? Again?

Hey Guys and girls, thought you might get a kick outa this:
hope T$R got some $$$$ outs this one..................

but I doubt it.
Chris

For Immediate Release
December 12, 1995

Contact: Thomas McLaughlin
(414) 248-3625

TSR, Inc. Sues for Online Copyright Infringement

LAKE GENEVA, WI -- TSR, Inc. of Lake Geneva, Wisconsin has led suit
against a group of online users for copyright and trademark infringement. The
company is the publisher of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons(R) games and books.
The suit charges 25 individuals, calling themselves KrYpt Keeper, Inc.,
with illegally exchanging TSR's copyrighted materials on the America Online
service. The group was ac^vely solici^ng individuals to submit scanned or
hand typed copies of original Advanced Dungeons & Dragons game material to
the group in exchange for copied TSR game material contributed by other
members of the group.
This is the rst complaint TSR has led for infringements online. The
acôn comes aver TSR discovered the group solici^ng new members on TSR's
own forum on America Online.

###

ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS is a registered trademark owned by TSR, Inc.
(C)1995, TSR, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Transmiked: 12/20/95 2:41 PM (suekrypt)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 10:26:09 -0500
Subject: More T$R Crap

Hey Kiddies,
Want more crap?
T$Rs sales are up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!

December 19, 1995
Contact: Tom McLaughlin

TSR's Sales Grow 25 Percent in 1995

LAKE GENEVA, WI -- TSR, Inc., the producers of ADVANCED DUNGEONS &
DRAGONS(R) games, announces another year of tremendous sales!
"TSR's nancial outlook is extremely posi^ve," says Willard Martens, the

company's Chief Opera^ng Ocer. "Our role-playing game revenue increased
20 percent in 1995 -- as it has annually for the last six years." In addiôn
he said the gure does not include increases from the company's card game or
magazine businesses.
The company's disclosure comes as its scal year is about to end -- and
in response to a recent inaccurate comment made on the internet by Wizards of
the Coast's president, Peter Adkison.
In response to a quesôn about the role playing game industry, Adkison
said the industry's and TSR's role-playing game sales have been on a steady
decline. "It is unfortunate that Mr. Adkison painted with such a broad brush
... his statement in regard to TSR is completely inaccurate," said Lorraine
Williams, TSR President and CEO.
She added, "We wish Wizards of the Coast well as they divest role-playing
and other products from their company, however, their inability to produce
successful RPG lines does not necessarily reect the state of the industry
-- and certainly not TSR!"
"Consumers are going to see some extremely exci^ng changes in our
products and marke^ng in 1996," said Williams. "Highlights include DRAGON(R)
Month in March and GEN CON(R) in August." In addiôn, TSR says the outlook
for 1996 sales is even brighter with our alliance with the Capital City
Distribuôn, Inc. sales force.
###

(R) represents registered trademarks owned by TSR, Inc.
Copyright 1995 TSR, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Transmiked: 12/20/95 2:40 PM (salegrow)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 10:29:30 -0500
Subject: TBL said what???

Hey kiddies, yes I am bored today,
Guess what TBL said?

>In addiôn, Williams announced TSR closed its Mail Order Hobby Shop
operaôn as of January 15th. Williams explained, "We are turning the sales
of TSR games over to retailers. Our company's best eorts are focused on
producing games and books, not selling to consumers.<

Excuse me? Baking powder?

Um.............That sounds like a load of elephant dung to me,
but hey, maybe T$Rs changing their heart.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 11:08:13 -0500

Subject: What the Hell???!!!

>Hey Guys and girls, thought you might get a kick outa this:
>hope T$R got some $$$$ outs this one..................

[Press Release about Copyright Infringement]

I have absolutely no problem with legit copyright protecôn. While we can
argue about the relevance of Mythus to AD&D, and they're a lot of gray areas
there...what you just reported seems to be blatant copyright violaôn.
Scanning in images and text of work and selling it is most denitely
illegal and I certainly would take that acôn myself if I found out a novel
or game supplement I wrote was being subverted that way.

You can pass stu around, transfer ^tle. But you're not supposed to do that.

As for the other two subjects...how do they pertain to Mythus and TSR's
relaônship to it?

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:00:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Stainton's posts

> The suit charges 25 individuals, calling themselves KrYpt Keeper, Inc.,
>with illegally exchanging TSR's copyrighted materials on the America Online
>service. The group was ac^vely solici^ng individuals to submit scanned or
>hand typed copies of original Advanced Dungeons & Dragons game material to
>the group in exchange for copied TSR game material contributed by other
>members of the group.

This is true, by the way, I saw it happen. "You scan the Complete
Priest's Handbook and I'll scan the Gladiator's Handbook."

>Hey Kiddies,
>Want more crap?
>T$Rs sales are up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Um, do you have a point that you're trying to make with these comments?

>>"We are turning the sales

>>of TSR games over to retailers. Our company's best eorts are focused on
>>producing games and books, not selling to consumers.<

>Excuse me? Baking powder?
>Um.............That sounds like a load of elephant dung to me,

Why? Is it so odd that a game company would want to focus on making
games, rather than trying to run a retail-sales ouit that was never
making money?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:40:28 -0500
Subject: Re: More T$R Crap

Ok, so that 20% sales increase should account for all the people that "just
had to get" the new copies of the second ediôn books. And didn't they
start recycling the FR line last year?

But why does this surprise you? There are more and more ten year olds
walking into book stores everyday. It would be far more interes^ng to see
TSR sales demographics. A percentage is a bogus number. If they sold 2
books last year, and 4 this year, they would have had a 100% sales increase.
As you can see 20% isn't so hard to believe.

Its not crap, it just smells that way. ;P

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:23:27 -0600
Subject: Cosmology - Drav

(Some of you may see this more than once, sorry)
This is a drav of my Creaôn Myth for my game world. I would love to
hear of any comments any of you have. Besides if nothing else it will
be more interes^ng than the T$R discussions that have been plaguing us. :)
:)

Thanks,
Dan.

> *****
>
> This is a metaphor, none of this is real. The universe is more vast and
> wonderful than can be described by mere words.
>
> In the beginning was The Creator. The Creator brought the Gods into existence
> to provide him with companionship and to help him create the universe.
> Together they labored to bring the universe into existence. The work was
> hard and the Gods strained under the task. They beseeched The Creator for
> someone to help them. The Creator heard their pleas and consented. He
> created the Angels to assist the Gods. The more talented of the Gods
> watched The Creator carefully as he created the Angels and felt they could
> do the same by themselves. In secret and in the dark they labored on their
> own beings, beings that would be their own servants and not answer to The
> Creator, but them alone. Aver long and fur^ve work they succeeded, thus
> the race of Demons was created. The Creator was unhappy with his independent
> Gods, he decided to destroy the Demons and punish the Gods who created them.
> The Gods begged for the life of their creaôn, again he relented, but he
> said that they would have to live in a special place created for them.
> Thus was Hell created seperate from the universe and from Heaven, the
> realm of the Gods and Angels. Aver much more work the universe was complete,
> the earth was created with its guardians, the Dragons, and inhabitants to
> people it.
>
> Aver the creaôn was nished the Gods and Angels saw that it was good and
> everyone sekled to enjoy the fruits of their labors. The Gods served the
> Creator and the Angels served the Gods. The Gods grew lazy and made increasing
> demands upon the Angels, nally some of the Angels, led by Lucifer decided
> to end their servitude by force. The First War in Heaven began. Angel fought
> Angel and God. Blood was shed for the rst ^me in the universe. The
> destrucôn was great for Lucifer was the greatest of the Angels and nearly
> equal to a God himself. Finally The Creator became sick of the slaughter and
> lev. No one knows where he went, or when he will return. What is known
> is that beyond Heaven was formed for the rst ^me the Abyss. A vast
> distance that none have managed to cross. The Fallen Angels as the rebels
> were called Deevas or Devils and were forced out of Heaven and they took
> refuge with the Demons in Hell.
>
> More later.....
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 14:43:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Cosmology - Drav
In-Reply-To: <m0u1zvQ-000AFFC@Uucp1.mcs.net>

Dan...

Some of this sounds strangely familiar. Is your world closer to ours
than it seems?

Here is the 2-cent version of my own planet:

Two penul^mate beings vie for control of innite universes. Deiês,
mortals, creatures, and all else are merely pawns in the eternal game.
In this par^cular place (my world), a thousand gods play, each with
their own dreams and plans. Mortals become the toys of these thousand,
and thus the world goes 'round.

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:18:47 -0500

>>Two penul^mate beings vie for control of innite universes. Deiês,
>>mortals, creatures, and all else are merely pawns in the eternal game.
>>In this par^cular place (my world), a thousand gods play, each with
their own dreams and plans. Mortals become the toys of these >>thousand,
and thus the world goes 'round.

Sounds like modern poli^cs.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:41:49 -0600
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960327143931.9570B-100000@conciliator.acsu.bualo.edu> from "Jesse"
at Mar 27,
96 02:43:04 pm

Thus spake Jesse
> Some of this sounds strangely familiar. Is your world closer to ours
> than it seems?

My term is a dark twisted parody of our world. I get most of my inspiraôn
from real legends, myths and tales from earth. The biggest kingdom (so far)
is a version of the Holy Roman Empire that might have developed if the
Western Roman Empire had not collapsed. Germanic culture slapped on top of
Roman culture.

Dan.

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 23:56:54 -0500
In-Reply-To: <960327151846_456317799@mail04>

> >>Two penul^mate beings vie for control of innite universes. Deiês,
> >>mortals, creatures, and all else are merely pawns in the eternal game.
> >>In this par^cular place (my world), a thousand gods play, each with
> their own dreams and plans. Mortals become the toys of these >>thousand,
> and thus the world goes 'round.
>
> Sounds like modern poli^cs.
>
> Tom

Did I menôn that the two beings' names are RepubliCarl and DemocRon?
Their nicknames are EleFrank and DonKen... :)

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 23:58:25 -0600
From: "Andrew D. McDowell" <mcdowad@MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>

Hello!
I've just joined Mythus-L, and wanted to say hello to everyone here.
I've just purchased a copy of the Dangerous Journey's Game system, and
have a few quesôns. I know that T$R bought out the rights to the
syste, but are any furter publicaôns expected? Also, I'm having a bit
of a problem with the armor system. Can someone send me some informaôn
about how averaged armor works vs. Piecemail. The Averaged Armor Tables
don't seem to represent a full suit of the armor as per it's
descripôn.
Any help would be much apreciated.
Thank you,
Drew

********************************************************************
Gravitaôn, n. The tendency of all bodies to approach one another
with a strength proporônal to the quan^ty of maker they contain the quan^ty of maker they contain being ascertained by the strength
of their tendency to approach one another. This is a lovely and
edifying illustraôn of how science, having made A the proof of B,
makes B the proof of A.
-Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dicônary"
*********************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 00:29:52 -0600

Oopsie, 'likle adendum to that last post if yall'll indulge me:
Is there anywhere I can nd a Mythus "monsters manual" (my apologies
if I step on any toes there)? I only have a copy of the Base Book,
Mythus Magic, and Epic of Aearth, and these have precious likle material
to reference other creatures to.

********************************************************************
*********************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 03:18:36 -0500

>>Also, I'm having a bit
of a problem with the armor system. Can someone send me some >>informaôn
about how averaged armor works vs. Piecemail. The Averaged Armor >>Tables
don't seem to represent a full suit of the armor as per it's
>>descripôn.

No they don't. But thats alright with me. It all comes down to this: how
much ^me do you want to spend on it? When I originally used the whole
piecemeal system, and none of my players liked it. It added far to much ^me
to HP generaôn and was oven ^mes hard to get a picture of what exactly
were you buying.
The averaged armor system, while not as detailed or realis^c, is faster,
more managable, and just as viable IMHO. From what I've heard, this was the
rst system that Dave and Gary envisioned, adding the piecemeal system as an
averthought for those who wanted more realism.
I've played with both extremes: Advanced Piecemeal and Prime Averaged, and I
think the Averaged Armor is much more to my liking. It also turns players
o much less.

My recommendaôn: go with the opôn that rpovides more fun. For me, that's
the Average Armor.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 03:23:00 -0500
Subject: Re: No Subject (besâry)

The Mythus Besâry covered most of the regular animal life of Aerth exterior, interior, and subterranean. Its a good investment if you can nd
it, but not en^rely nessecary. Sean Renyolds menôned that copies could
s^ll be ordered through TSR, but you might have to have your local game
store do the ordering. If its _monsters_ you want, Necropolis is probably
the beker bet, however. Also, keep your eyes peeled to this list for word
on the Phaeree besâry, which is an independently wriken collecôn of
beasês. Its slow coming, but should be available eventually.

BTW, no. At this ^me no further products are planned by TSR.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 12:12:48 -0500

On Thu, 28 Mar 1996, Tom Harrison wrote:

> The Mythus Besâry covered most of the regular animal life of Aerth > exterior, interior, and subterranean. Its a good investment if you can nd
> it, but not en^rely nessecary. Sean Renyolds menôned that copies could
> s^ll be ordered through TSR, but you might have to have your local game
> store do the ordering. If its _monsters_ you want, Necropolis is probably
> the beker bet, however. Also, keep your eyes peeled to this list for word

I dunno about that. There are some preky fantas^c crikers in
Subterranean AErth. Personally, I'm fond of Awfulgutbags, Blackledge,
Centaurants, Deathblobs, Whoons, Devoles, Dropsnakes, Stoaês, Stoolies,
Unlife, Warthills, Great Wolfspiders, and the ever-popular Yilyissith
(Squiggleheads). And of course, Interior AErth has all those lovely
dinosaurs (including one sapient race). Finally, exterior AErth
crikers might seem dull at rst, but add a likle heka inuence to
control them, and you've got some challenging opponents (who are generally
subject to physical akacks alone). Now if you're looking for undead or
therianthropes, I agree that Necropolis is a much beker source. However,
there's much more to life than gh^ng undead. This is Mythus, not
Werewolf:The Abominaôn. On the last note, we're all wai^ng on
Phaeree, but what would be really interes^ng (to me) would be the
Nether/Astral Planes Beasâry. Just a thought. I might even do some
work on it once I graduate. But rst comes the compleôn of
Dweomercraev school detailing.

--Ryan Snead
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 15:23:40 GMT
In-Reply-To: <m0u1zvQ-000AFFC@Uucp1.mcs.net>

> This is a drav of my Creaôn Myth for my game world. I would
love
> to
> hear of any comments any of you have. Besides if nothing else it
> will
> be more interes^ng than the T$R discussions that have been
plaguing
> us. :)

T$R discussions? Oh, I don't know, I like them! (:

> > This is a metaphor, none of this is real. The universe is more
> vast and
> > wonderful than can be described by mere words.
> >
> > In the beginning was The Creator. The Creator brought the Gods
> into existence

Dan,

I like Your ideas, but in a world as vast as Aerth, this rather
'western' view of creaôn may prove to be a bit of a hindrance

when your HPs are exploring lands with other religions and creaôn
beliefs.

I prefer to think of Aerth being created in the same way as those
clever scien^sts tell us Earth was created:- a big bang, an
expanding universe and lots of complex mathema^cs.

Life on Aerth, like Earth, evolved from blobs of goo in some
primordial sea.

As humanity developed, and man's intelligence grew, a previously
dormant element, HEKA, responded to the hopes, dreams and fears of
mankind, and created the gods and devils that man needed to explain
his existence.

Thus any isolated group of humans could have gods and
monsters/demons unique to themselves.

Assuming the same thing happened throughout the mul^verse, it is
not unreasonable to believe that a HEKA 'link' could be forged to
adjacent planes.

I admit that this theory does not explain why Aerth has a big hole
in the middle (full of dinosaurs), but I am working on that one.

Cheers,

Mark Goode

Leicester
England.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 15:59:11 -0500

Ryan,

I seem to recall that the Listserver Phaeree Besâry would contain a few
Undead creatures. I don't see any reason that it couldn't contain Demons and
outer planar creatures.

Speaking of which, has anyone elaborated on the categories of Netherbeings
listed under the Demonology K/S Area? I've got a brief list with
descripôns which John Troy sent me, but I'd love to see what others have
done with the category. It would also be interes^ng to see a similar list
for Metaphysics (study of the higher planes and their dezidens) with brief
descripôns for those.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 17:15:18 +0000

> I seem to recall that the Listserver Phaeree Besâry would contain
> a few Undead creatures. I don't see any reason that it couldn't
> contain Demons and outer planar creatures.

Have you seen the size of the Phearee Manual!!?? I think if we wanted
to include an Abysmal secôn, I should then break the manual into
two dierent manuals. One with the Phaeree Monsters and one with all
the "Unocal" entries, the Undead and the Abysmal secôns. This
would make a couple of rather LARGE and impresive books...

Later Daniel...
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 20:18:56 -0500

>I like Your ideas, but in a world as vast as Aerth, this rather
>'western' view of creaôn may prove to be a bit of a hindrance
>when your HPs are exploring lands with other religions and creaôn
>beliefs.
>
>I prefer to think of Aerth being created in the same way as those
>clever scien^sts tell us Earth was created:- a big bang, an
>expanding universe and lots of complex mathema^cs.
>
>Life on Aerth, like Earth, evolved from blobs of goo in some
>primordial sea.

Actually, AErth and Earth were once the same ^meline. Apparently, Heka
exists everywhere in the mul^verse, but the ow became stronger early on,
and that and the developments diverged the probabilites.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 00:47:46 +0000
Reply-To: zoltan@slip.net
Subject: JM screen

I'm pos^ng this on the list because I'm on a dierent
computer and have misplaced Wesley's e-mail address.

My address is 623 Sonoma Street, Richmond, CA 98805.

And yes, my name is really Zoltan Grose (a Hungarian name).

Prices are (Ryan [JM Screen]) $8, (Wesley [Beasâry]) $16.
Covers tax, shipping, and TLC.

Oh yeah, and Kalrithian, they only had the one Beasâry while
I was there, but I'll look again this weekend. BTW, for anyone
in the Bay Area (anyone?) if you e-mail me, I'll let you know
my "source." I'm hesitant to post it because of possible
repercussions from TSR for selling them. They were half-price
though, and I believe they s^ll have the Epic of AErth if
anyone is interested.

-zoltan
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 16:58:16 -0500
Subject: Re: JM screen
X-To: zoltan@slip.net

>Oh yeah, and Kalrithian, they only had the one Beasâry while
>I was there, but I'll look again this weekend. BTW, for anyone
>in the Bay Area (anyone?) if you e-mail me, I'll let you know
>my "source." I'm hesitant to post it because of possible
>repercussions from TSR for selling them. They were half-price
>though, and I believe they s^ll have the Epic of AErth if
>anyone is interested.

I don't think TSR would care or have legal cause to care about old copies
being sold. A retailer is free to sell whatever stock he or she has. They
only control things on the publishing level. They can't, for instance,
force retailers to remove Role-Aids or other products from their shelves.
They can only aect things on the publishing level.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 07:47:52 -0600

from "Mark Goode" at Mar 28, 96 03:23:40 pm

Thus spake Mark Goode
> Dan,
>
> I like Your ideas, but in a world as vast as Aerth, this rather
> 'western' view of creaôn may prove to be a bit of a hindrance
> when your HPs are exploring lands with other religions and creaôn
> beliefs.

First of all, thanks for your comments. The myth that I wrote is not
intended for Aerth, nor is it intended for any one society it is the
Truth. All of the religions on my world will have their own versions
of this myth.

> As humanity developed, and man's intelligence grew, a previously
> dormant element, HEKA, responded to the hopes, dreams and fears of
> mankind, and created the gods and devils that man needed to explain
> his existence.
>
> Thus any isolated group of humans could have gods and
> monsters/demons unique to themselves.

Interes^ng idea. That is kind of similar to what I had originally
envisioned, but by the ^me I got around to puing it to paper (so to
speak) it had changed.

I have s^ll not decided where magic came from. I think it is due to
cracks and imperfecôns in the universe that have been exploited by
the gods (or intenônally built into creaôn) and inhabitants.

Dan.

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:43:44 -0600

>Dan,
>
>I like Your ideas, but in a world as vast as Aerth, this rather
>'western' view of creaôn may prove to be a bit of a hindrance
>when your HPs are exploring lands with other religions and creaôn
>beliefs.
>

I hardly see where this is 'rather' western. It is a Dualis^c creaôn
myth, very similar to western Gnos^c tradiôns of the Creator God, an
imperfect Demiurge who creates the material world, and fallen spirits.
Gnos^cism itself grew out of Oriental dualis^c tradiôns which were
rst promogulated into doctrine by Zoroaster some ^me between 1200 and
700 B.C.E
The most inuenâl form of Gnos^c dualis^c religions,
Manichaeism was founded by Mani (216-276 C.E), a prophet born in a
Mesopotamian Bap^st community and ac^ve in Persia un^l martyred. The
sect spread westward to Rome and eastward to china (694)where it was the
state religion of the Uigur Turks (763-840). The Manichaeans sekled
throughout Asia Minor.
Another form, known as Paulicianism, was founded in the Euphrates
valley and its adherents were deported to what is now Bulgaria.
Yet another, Bogomilism made its appearance in the tenth century
C.E. in Bulgaria, soon moving to Byzanûm, from whence it spread westward
through Dalmaâ and Italy, reaching France during the rst part of the
twelvh century.
Finally, the Cathars ourished throughout the north of Italy and
the south of France.
So, from the 'western' strand of Dualism - Gnos^cism, we have
idenêd the following cultures as having been aected by the doctrine:
The Roman Empire (N. Africa, Egypt, The Levant, Asia minor, etc...),
Persia, China, Byzanûm, Bulgaria, S. France, N. Italy, the Balkan states.
And this is just s^cking to the clearest Metaphor for Dan's myth.
If we expand our metaphor to include just Dualis^c religions; that
is those which set the universe into two categories at war with each other,
we see that almost every culture possess this tradiôn. From the Eliade
guide to world religions:
"Ugo Bianchi...ascertained that myths with a trickster as
protagonist are oven dualis^c...Everywhere - in the Americas as well as
in Eurasia, Africa or Oceania - the trickster may be an imperfect Demiurge,
author of a counter creaôn whose consequences are oven catastrophic."
Now granted Dan's myth doesn't have all these characteris^cs, but
it is similar and with a likle fudging, can apply to almost ever culture
in the world. In the Slavonic tradiôn was the belief that rebel spirits
fell to earth some landing in onto men's roofs or yards; other into the
woods and waters. Those who fell into men home became Domovoi, Dvorovoi,
Bannik, Ovinnik, Kikimore, Peseias and Krukis; all benecient sprits
because of thier associaôn with men. The spirits that fell into the woods
and waters became Leshy, Polevik, Vodyanoi, Rusalka - all 'evil' wild
spirits. When the rebels were kicked out of heaven in Dan's cosmology,
perhaps some of them, the lesser of the lesser, landed on earth or in
Phaeree, cloaking themselves in physical bodies.
Now although Chinese Mythology is not truly dualis^c, as it does
not posses warring facôns and has no eschatology I could nd; the
cosmology nicely parallels the mythical Chinese concept of the Celesâl
Bureaucracy. There, all the beings of the universe report the 'the august
personage of Jade, one of the rst gods who existed. Although one of the
greatest gods, he is only the second of a supreme triad which includes the
heavenly master of the rst origin (Dan's creator) who preceded him, and
the Heavenly master of the Dawn of Jade of the Golden door who will one day
succeed him (Dan's creator returning?). The dierent gods under him are
posi^ve bureaucrats (an oxymoron) who keep reports and issue direc^ves
and maintain the universe.
The Chinese hell is composed of eighteen hells, distributed among
ten law courts to which they are akached. These courts are presided over
by the Shih-ên-Yen Wang, the kings of the ten law courts. These kings
answer to the August personage... and are responsible for determining the
punishments of souls. As I said, there is no 'bakle brewing' but it s^ll
works under the concepts of the Creator god who leaves, Usurper gods who
ignorantly create lesser beings, and two opposing realms. The Chinese
believed that every year the gods are reviewed by the August personage and
is then promoted, lowered, or dismissed. So there is lots of room for
scheming bureaucrats trying to advance their careers - just think of the
nixon administraôn with deital powers (sorry if I'm Amerocentric).
Finally, Hindu Mythology - need I explain?
So as you see, it is not a western concept and poses no problem of
'exclusivity' to a majority of the worlds cultures. Granted, aboriginal
cultures may not posses the extreme anthropomorphism inherent in the ideas,
but the clever JM can over come this. Perhaps some of the gods are using
the cultures for power and are presen^ng themselves and their stories in
ways that are woven into the fabric of those peoples lives. There is room
for both.
My apologies this is so long, here in America, a few of us are a
likle touchy about Euro-bashing, at least when it's based in supercial
interpretaôn.

>I prefer to think of Aerth being created in the same way as those
>clever scien^sts tell us Earth was created:- a big bang, an
>expanding universe and lots of complex mathema^cs.
I think this interpretaôn is innitely more Eurocentric, as it
developed in the heart of European Imperialism and is not paralleled in any
other tradiôn.

>As humanity developed, and man's intelligence grew, a previously
>dormant element, HEKA, responded to the hopes, dreams and fears of
>mankind, and created the gods and devils that man needed to explain
>his existence.
>
This doesn't explain preternatural Heka or nature spirits, or the existence
of Phaeree, nor does it explain the path souls and spirits take upon death.
In other words, how'd the souls get there in the rst place.

I think I'm gonna post my personal cosmology, but rst a quesôn, if any
of you are s^ll reading. What is the legal status of what pass on here? If
tsr decided to resurrect Mythus, can they use the stu we are crea^ng?
Should we copyright it? Sean?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 10:13:39 -0600

I'd be interested in Geing a copy of the JM's screen and the Beasâry
if someone was willing to mail a copie out to Alabama. If anyone can
grab one for me.
Thanx!
Drew

********************************************************************
*********************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:21:25 -0500

>I don't think TSR would care or have legal cause to care about old copies
>being sold.

I believe that John is correct.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 19:26:47 GMT

In-Reply-To: <v01540b00ad81996145c6@[204.148.151.151]>

> I hardly see where this is 'rather' western. It is a Dualis^c
creaôn
> myth....

Easy Eric, I am not trying to pick a ght. I put the word
'western' in quotaôn marks because I could not think of a beker
descripôn at the ^me.

> ...here in America, a few of
us are a
> likle touchy about Euro-bashing...

Euro-bashing? Why should I? I live here.

> I think I'm gonna post my personal cosmology

I look forward to it, you have obviously done a lot of research.

Does your cosmology explain why Aerth has a big hole in the middle,
full of dinosaurs?

> What is the legal status of what pass on here?

Good point.

Bye for now

Mark Goode

Leicester,
England,
Europe
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 14:42:28 -0500

> Does your cosmology explain why Aerth has a big hole in the middle,
> full of dinosaurs?

Well, one could always add a chapter or so and steal a rather obvious
reason (and, in fact, this could allow for some awesome potenâl): As
Heka congealed and Gods were created out of senênt beings' fevered
imaginings (if one wants it to happen this way), the gods realize that
they are dependant on the con^nued existance of the senênts, and so

a group (or even all of them) collaborate to make a place to stash those
cultures/beliefs which are threatened for their own preservaôn.

If one gets *really* into this, one could even add whole secôns of
Interior AErth where the ancient cultures s^ll exist, separate from the
historical creatures already there, with some hevy magic to keep the
cultures from muta^ng too far (i.e. ban the introducôn of new cultural
elements) in order to suit the purpose of preserving the past.

Then again, it's been done before.

Or, rambling some more, one could do the same, only limit it to
'prehistoric' cultures/beings which were wiped out (neanderthals, etc).
One could even have a nice, nivy, senênt dinosaur race with its own
set of deiês which is why they were saved :-)

Just a crazed, rambling thought for a late Friday avernoon.

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 14:51:21 -0500

Okay, Zoltan. My address is:
Wesley Miaw
71 Middlesex Drive
Slingerlands, NY 12159

I'll send you the check for $16 in the mail tomorrow, made out to Zoltan
Grose. (Sorry about the name thing, most of my friends who are of that region
of Europe have Jewish names, so I'm not aquainted with true Hungarian names.
I go by a psuedonym myself, so why not everyone else?)

-Josuah (aka Wesley Miaw) :)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 14:08:09 -0600

>> I hardly see where this is 'rather' western. It is a Dualis^c
>creaôn
>> myth....
>
>Easy Eric, I am not trying to pick a ght. I put the word
>'western' in quotaôn marks because I could not think of a beker
>descripôn at the ^me.
>
>> ...here in America, a few of
>us are a
>> likle touchy about Euro-bashing...
>
>Euro-bashing? Why should I? I live here.

Sorry if i was aggressive - there is a tendency here in the Universiês to
denigrate everything western. It was early morning and the coee was quick
kickin in. My whole point was to show that Dan had a great Idea that was
applicable to a number of cultures we might tradiônally think of as
seperate.
Again, sorry if I was in yr face.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 16:07:05 -0500


>Um, do you have a point that you're trying to make with these comments?
>
>

It's Called SARCASM
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 16:58:24 -0500


>Why? Is it so odd that a game company would want to focus on making
>games, rather than trying to run a retail-sales ouit that was never
>making money?

Once again it's called SARCASM.
I think the Mythus-L list in general(sorry to speak for everyone, so if I
oended you, I apologize, and get over it) knows that T$R is focusing on
making games, THAT LACK QUALITY, to sell to CONSUMERS. I happen to be a
consumer, and the sarcasm was that "lack of quality" which, by and large, T$R
happens to have been
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 17:14:40 -0500
Subject: OOPS

Sorry Guys,
I hit the wrong key and sent the incomplete post out.
Don't I feel like the village idiot.

Anyway, I don't remember my train of thought, but I think My gist was that
T$R hadn't put out quality material for some ^me now, and I though it Ironic
that they were saying how they are concentra^ng on making games, not selling
them.

Again my train of thought is gone, and I forgot what my original intenôn
was.

The Village Idiot,
Chris Stainton....................

I swear I'm not a Tard!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 15:29:35 -0800
Subject: item rumors

Hey everyone,

To help prove that this project _is_ about to be completed, here
are the last items that needed to be wriken up -- supplied by
John Teske. Assuming these get past the careful watch of Mythus-l
readers, all that remains is for me to write a revised entry
for rhomygh.... er, King Arthur's spear. There doesn't seem to
be too much wriken about this weapon; nowhere near what is available
about Excalibur, but that is to be expected. I think I can run
with what detail I found.

Aver all the predicôns and promises that have been made, I hate
to add yet another, but I will anyway. I'd expect to nish
everything up this weekend and have something ready to distribute to
vp and web sites soon averwards. I'll be more specic when I
actually have it done and a hard copy in hand.

Steven

----------

Lydia

Joampol's Accursed Presence
This libram, said to be made from the hides of many creatures, is
an item that has long been the object of many fascina^ng rumors.
Illuminators, those ar^sans who illustrate manuscripts, as well as
perfumers and instrument makers of Lydia all seem to agree that the
tome serves a vile and dark purpose. However, none seem to agree on
its exact nature. All involved state that the tome is not only able
to summon spirits, but also is able to bestow En^tal Grade curses.
The three, however, dier on the precise manner in which some of
these curses can be idenêd. Instrument makers claim a faraway but
omnipresent tune can be heard about the recipient of such a curse,
while perfumers allege that the subjects have a dierent scent.
Illuminators argue that scenes in portraits and other works of art
near the cursed individual seem to change and deform themselves, only
later seing themselves aright. In any case, it appears to be a
powerful tool not only for summoning spirits to do as its owner
desires, but a device also capable of causing woe and suering to
those disliked by the owner. The cost of its funcôns, in human
lives or otherwise, is unknown.

Gygaean Ring
Two famous but diverse legends s^ll circulate among commoners
regarding this item -- a plain rather unadorned silvery band of outer
planar metal. First, there are many who allege that the Great Mage
Gee Gygax created the device and that, for the cost of a PERMANENT 120
point Trait Drain (spread amongst traits as the owner wishes), one
fundamental law of reality can be altered for a full 24 hours.
(Plenty of ^me to do nasty things if the correct law is altered...)
Others point to the Greco-Roman heritage of the Ionians who originally
sekled the country, and claim that the device is capable of summoning
the Hecatoncheires (Gyges, also brothers Briaraeus and Cokus).
Many strange events have occurred over the past decade in the
country of Lydia, a fact that could support the rst rumored power of
this device. However, it is also rumored that several powerful
elemental dweomercraevers are secre^vely at work in the country as
well, and that they are the actual cause of these events.

Hibernia

Sword of Cuchulainn
This item is a famous object of legend and lore and is menôned
in many a verse and myth. It is certain that it was rst wielded by
the great warrior Cuchulainn, though the sword and the warrior have
now been enlarged in the telling and retelling of legends concerning
them. Thus, the sword's powers are s^ll hotly debated among the
common folk. Though many claim to know its precise funcôns, none
can recall the last ^me it was used in any sort of confrontaôn,
military or otherwise. Some are certain that the sword is studded

with locally occurring gemstone containing Hekalite traces in addiôn
to opal and topaz. Others claim the item appears to be a rather
unremarkable sword of above average quality.
All the tales do seem to share a common thread -- the power of
duplicaôn, though the target varies from an opposing ar^fact's
powers to the sword's wielder to the sword itself (as well as many
bizarre variants). Whether this is a true, or only, power of the item
remains to be seen. Many of Hibernia's enemies point to its well
known propaganda campaign surrounding the inherent Joss in a 4-leaf
clover as evidence that perhaps some misinformaôn may be present
here. Only the ruler and his condants in Dublin know for sure.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 20:13:09 -0500

Why would AErth have a big hole in the middle full of dinosaurs?

I'm not sure about the logic of how the hole got there. That is
completely mys^fying to me. Perhaps it is something fundemental to the
nature of maker when exposed to Heka, so holes turn up in their middle
sides. However, based upon an examinaôn of the habitat zones of
Interior AErth, one gets a sense that ^me, or rather age, passes more
slowly in the interior. Take this account from a visi^ng lecturer given at
the University of Buda-Pest by the Francian scholar Gerard de Huegenot a
few years ago.

Interior AErth is divided into three main habitat zones. Nearest
the poles is a region called the Outer Band. The next zone is the
Intermediate Band. Finally, the zone furthest from the polar regions is
the Equatorial Band. The progression from the Outer Band to the Equatorial
Band gives one a sense of travelling back in evoluônary history. The
Outer Band is populated and dominated by Mammalians. It is the region
where the primi^ve humanoids can be found as well as other non-saurian
species. In the Intermediate Band, there appears to be a mixture of
evolved rep^les. Finally, the Equatorial Band is the home of the
various species of greater lizards commonly referred to as dinosaurs.
At some point in the early history of AErth, life forms emerged
and evoluôn began at roughly the same place in ^me. However, life on
Exterior AErth had more to which it was required to adapt. The pakern of
night and day, while it may seem no more than natural, may have increased
mortality on the outside. Further, many have theorized that rays of
mysterious force emena^ng from the Sun may increase mutaôns. Thus,
having a harsher environment in which to adapt along with direct exposure to
the solar muta^ve force may have lead to a more pronounced rate of evoluôn
outside.
However, this informaôn alone is not adequate to completely

explain the development of the three dis^nct bands. Most scholars are
familiar with the linguis^c work being performed in an akempt to
understand the language of the primi^ves humanoids of the Outer Band being
performed at the Teutonic University of Berlin. The accounts of some of the
legends and cosmologies of those subjects brought to the surface have recently
been published by Dr. Chompsky. They speak of a second sphere which
appears for long periods of ^me over the horizon opposite to their Interior
Sun, which they associate with an evil deity of sickness. While these
accounts are quite vague, it does not seem unreasonable that they are
describing the exterior Sun peering through the North polar opening.
If this is the case, the Outer band species are being exposed to
several months per year of direct exposure to the muta^ve solar rays.
Thus, we have a mechanism which seems to explain the paralell evoluôn
of Exterior AErth and the various Interior Bands. However, this leads
one immediately to quesôn why life evolved in much the same fashion in
both Interior and Exterior AErth. I can explain this only by hypothesizing
a limited range of advantageous mutaôns exis^ng given a common lines of
inheritance. And also in defense of my hypothesis, I will say that there
are clear dierences. While evoluôn is much slower in the Equatorial
Band of Interior AErth, it does s^ll occur, as is shown by the evoluôn
of the Theriopodid, a sapient race of rep^les in the Equatorial Band,
which have yet to be discovered in any record on the outer surface,
historic or geologic.

While this hypothesis put forward by de Huegenot is somewhat
controversial, due to its basis in evoluôn. I certainly nd it
worthwhile. It could even be applied successfully to the well known
migraôn hypothesis.

--Ryan the Scholar
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 21:32:46 -0500

Eric,
That was a ver impressive post on dualis^c pantheons around the world!
I am looking forward to reading your cosmology.

Jason
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:03:42 -0500
Subject: Gygax Update.

Just thought others would want to know...

A few have wondered what EGG's been doing lately. Well, so far, he's
wriken two things for White Wolf. He wrote an Elric Story for their "Tales
of the White Wolf" anthology, it was copyright 1994, so I guess I missed it
(musta been a hardcover or something).

More recently, Dante's Disciples has been released...another anthology, with
him penning the horror tale "Get on Board the D Train". Wonderful stu.
He's also keeping good company--Ellison, Lumley, Nye, Max Allen Collins,
O'Barr, etc.

I have to wonder if he keeps doing the wri^ng thing for WW Books, we might
see another game (or a supplement) from him. I hope so! (Contrary to
popular belief, he did not "swear o" RPGs, but rather decided to focus on
Computer Games, thinking there's a beker market for them than Paper games.)

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 23:29:19 PST
Subject: TSR, copyrights, etc.

Sounds like they caught the people cold.

As much as it might smell to some, game companies absolutely have to
protect themselves from blatant copyright infringement, and a lawsuit
in this case is *absolutely* jusêd. If someone were doing the same
thing to Quintessenâl Mercy Studio's products, I'd be all over them
too.

As far as the relaônship to Mythus, this is not the same thing
(IMNSHO). I was there when they screwed Gary (the second ^me, that
is...), and they weren't jusêd - but this is not the same thing.

Game companies have a right to prot, what's wrong with that? If we
game designers produce and market a good game, we deserve to reap the
benets. If people think of TSR (or QMS, for that maker) as an evil
empire, that is their opinion, and they have a right to that opinion.
But let's not make out a company as evil for keeping their material
safe from bandits.

If somebody tried to screw my company, I'd want the nasêst, meanest
lawyers in the world. And since QMS is mine and William's baby, I
suspect we'd be looking for the people personally aver the lawyers
reamed 'em (sorry, I get really protec^ve of my work). Aver all, QMS
has a bail policy; anyone ripping us o beker have health insurance.

Dave=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 23:41:04 PST
Subject: Armor

Drew,

Gary and I specically designed Averaged armor for simplicity. When
I was playtes^ng the game, I found that genera^ng piece armor for a
group took en^rely too long.

I recommend you s^ck to the simple system un^l you play a few
scenarios.

Dave=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 02:35:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Gygax Update.

I'm surprised nobody had asked yet, so here it goes: What did Gygax write
for White Wolf?

Later,
Wayne

P.S. Anyone have any idea if a person could get any info. on what was put
forth on "Unhallowed". I know nothing was ocially published, but does
anyone have any clue as to the basic ideas behind the project?

"Death be not proud,
though many have called thee mighty and dreadful,
for thou art not so,
For those thou think'st thou dost overthrow
Die not, poor death
Nor cast thou yet kill me"--John Donne (Ok...it was cool in Exorcist III)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 17:37:49 -0500


At 02:35 AM 3/30/96 -0500, Wayne Westphalen wrote:
>I'm surprised nobody had asked yet, so here it goes: What did Gygax write
>for White Wolf?
>
The two aoremenôned novels. They have a growing book line just like
TSR. In fact they are geing some very good licenses--they're reprin^ng
most of Harlan Ellison's work, have aquired the publishing rights to Fritz
Leiber's Lankhmar, etc.

He's not wriken any games--yet.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 18:56:29 -0500

Thank you for clarifying that for me. Hopefully, we can see some paper RPG's
published
by him in the near future. But I should also probably wish in one hand and
crap in the other and see which one piles up faster.

Wayne "T$...who?" W.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 23:55:03 -0500
From: Cris Egger <Kristo42@AOL.COM>
Subject: Geing up to date...

Gree^ngs!

I've been following the list for a couple of weeks now (great stu
gang!) and was wondering if someone could give me a quick update on the
status of the Dangerous Journey's system? I bought Mythus when it rst came
out some years ago, but have lost track of it since. Anyhow, I gather from
reading here that TSR bought it and that it's not being published or
developed any longer. Not a Good Thing (that it's not being developed, that
is... not concerned with who actually does the developing... heh...), but was
wondering if someone could give a list of what books and accessories were
published? Sort of a guide to stu to look for or perhaps a FAQ that has
this info. in it. Any help would be appreciated. (If inappropriate for the
list, please send any informaôn via e-mail. Thanks!)

Angel's Luck,
C.D. Egger

Kristo42@aol.com
hkp://members.aol.com/kristo42
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 04:32:49 -0500

I spoke to John Danovich today (in person, as opposed to over the phone or
by email). He said there is no way in hell Mythus will ever see the light
of day again. No vascilla^ng, no maybe's. He was *very* blunt. He
dislikes EGG personally, and Mythus by extension.

So don't bother with your leker campaigns. The decision has already been made.

Take care,
Gary
Gary Spechko - hkp://www.crater.com/jag/

hkp://www.crater.com/avacal/
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 01:49:19 -0800
Subject: The Item Rumor Project

Well, you've heard it before: the updates, the promises of imminent
compleôn, and the delays.

No more. (at last!)

The item rumor project is now completed. I have a Word 6 le
siing in my account and a hard copy at hand. The nal product
weighs in at 86 pages, so I don't think I'll try sending it to the
mailing list.

Now before I get too many requests, I'm going to submit this to the
Mythus vp site in Word 6 format and/or RTF format. From the previous
email messages on the subject, either of those should sa^sfy most of
those on the list (if not, I can see what I can do for individual
requests). If any of the keepers of Mythus-related web pages want a
copy for their archives, email me a request and a preferred le
format. If some of you had made specic requests earlier, please
remind me via email and I'll get back to you.

I included an index and formated the document for double-sided
prin^ng. It would certainly be possible to just leave it
single-sided, but be careful with the margins or the page number
references will no longer be accurate.

I'm sure John Teske will agree that it is a relief to have this
nally completed. I may just have to pick up a new Mythus project
now....

--Steven Gullerud gullerud@leland.stanford.edu
Invisible .sig below. Apply heat to your monitor to make it appear.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 05:51:22 -0500

At 04:32 AM 3/31/96 -0500, Gary Spechko wrote:
>I spoke to John Danovich today (in person, as opposed to over the phone or
>by email). He said there is no way in hell Mythus will ever see the light
>of day again. No vascilla^ng, no maybe's. He was *very* blunt. He
>dislikes EGG personally, and Mythus by extension.
>
Jeez, this is a TSR Newbie. (Been with the company for less than 2-3 years,
former HERO editor). What cause does he have to hate Mr. Gygax?

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 10:51:08 -0500
From: Frank Mentzer <Mythic@AOL.COM>
Subject: Mail Order etc.

>>Is it so odd that a game company would want to focus on making games,
rather than trying to run a retail-sales ouit that was never making money?
-- Sean Reynolds<<

Yes, it is, Sean. But it's okay; that aitude supports the hobby, and
benets all your compe^tors. Keep it up!
The nature of hobby gaming (as opposed to other retail industries)
requires the avermarket support by manufacturers. Most publishers of
roleplaying games realize this. TSR oered such support 3 ways, and managed
to make a small prot on each. These were the Hobby Shop (which shived
from storefront to mail-order only), Magazines, and a club (RPGA).
Since 1986, return on investment (ROI) as a determinant of resource
allocaôn at TSR has steadily increased. I'm sure ROI is not the only
criterion in such decisions, but it has become more predominant. While this
is not a bad thing, it must be balanced against the avermarket services
required by the special nature of this sub-industry.
The cessaôn of the mail-order business (self-sucient but not as
protable as other facets of TSR operaôns) parallels the marke^ng policy
of termina^ng protable product lines. Thousands curse TSR for cuing o
some of the AD&D campaigns; hobbyists are en^ced with promises of further
products and then abruptly dumped to fend for themselves. The plethora of
moot decisions in this regard (all producing bad PR) are a key part of the
an^-TSR mood thoughout the hobby.
However, TSR thrives. Thus, the subsumed judgment -- that the core hobby
market is no longer necessary to TSR's survival -- must be correct. The core
hobby market thus turns ever more toward the smaller publishers, and nds a
wealth of excellent crea^ve eorts. Their producers go the extra mile to
provide avermarket support, focusing on the special needs of the hobbyists.
Distributors who oer these lesser-known items are reaping greater sales.
When the RPGA is nally sacriced for protability, a truly independent
replacement will arrive and probably thrive, as long as its founder(s)
refocus on the special needs of the hobbyists.
And nally, take the long view. TSR's prot orientaôn supports this
breeding ground for small game companies. Dilletante non-hobby gamers, never
dependable, start buying more variety. TSR's market share drops. They try
to recapture the hobbyists -- but the vic^ms remember, and have more to
choose from, and do not return in the expected droves. Finally TSR's owners
decide that the cycle has run its course, the company has been milked long
enough; they sell it o, and go on to other more protable endeavors.

-- JFM
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 12:12:31 EST
In-Reply-To: <MYTHUS-L%96033104324945@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>; from "Gary Spechko"
at Mar 31, 96 4:32 am

> I spoke to John Danovich today (in person, as opposed to over the phone or
> by email). He said there is no way in hell Mythus will ever see the light
> of day again. No vascilla^ng, no maybe's. He was *very* blunt. He
> dislikes EGG personally, and Mythus by extension.

Who's John Danovich?

Lucifer >:}


=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 12:18:26 PST

>At 04:32 AM 3/31/96 -0500, Gary Spechko wrote:
>>I spoke to John Danovich today (in person, as opposed to over the phone or
>>by email). He said there is no way in hell Mythus will ever see the light
>>of day again. No vascilla^ng, no maybe's. He was *very* blunt. He
>>dislikes EGG personally, and Mythus by extension.
>>
>Jeez, this is a TSR Newbie. (Been with the company for less than 2-3 years,
>former HERO editor). What cause does he have to hate Mr. Gygax?
>

Everyone's en^tled to their opinion of someone else. Since I've never heard of
him, maybe he's just another wannabe who can't stand someone who's actually
made it. Either that or Gary might have blown him o over something. Or
insulted him with a wiky comeback (Gary doesn't mince words, and that tends
to piss people o).

I keep telling you people it *more* than just a marke^ng decision that has
killed the game. Any^me you put someone in a posiôn of power who has a
grudge, you have to live with their biased judgement. This is a good example.

Dave=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 12:26:55 PST
Subject: Re: Mail Order etc.

Frank Mentzer wrote:
[snip]
> And nally, take the long view. TSR's prot orientaôn supports this
>breeding ground for small game companies. Dilletante non-hobby gamers, never
>dependable, start buying more variety. TSR's market share drops. They try
>to recapture the hobbyists -- but the vic^ms remember, and have more to
>choose from, and do not return in the expected droves. Finally TSR's owners
>decide that the cycle has run its course, the company has been milked long
>enough; they sell it o, and go on to other more protable endeavors.

Which, inevitably gives us back the quality, if the company s^ll wants to
compete. Thanks, Frank, for an excellent assessment.

Dave=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 12:35:38 -0500

>I spoke to John Danovich today (in person, as opposed to over the phone or
>by email). He said there is no way in hell Mythus will ever see the light
>of day again. No vascilla^ng, no maybe's. He was *very* blunt. He
>dislikes EGG personally, and Mythus by extension.

Point: Dano is a director of _sales_.
Point: The sales sta has no say in what product lines we're
going to revive.
Point: The leker campaign was to the President of TSR and the VP of
Crea^ve Services.
Point: These people _do_ have a say in such makers.

Don't lose heart. Dano's a nice guy, but this isn't his decision.

- Sean (at home)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 12:57:02 -0500

>Yes, it is, Sean. But it's okay; that aitude supports the hobby, and
>benets all your compe^tors. Keep it up!

Frank, I realize that you certainly are one of the people with
a grudge against TSR (possibly legit, possibly not), but whatever
you do, DO NOT ATTACK ME PERSONALLY! Thse are not "my" compe^tors,
they are TSR's compe^tors. I do not make marke^ng decisions;
don't treat me like I do. Don't blame me for these things, and don't
hold me responsible for TSR decisions. Divide the man from the company.
Got it?

>>The cessaôn of the mail-order business (self-sucient but not as
>protable as other facets of TSR operaôns) parallels the marke^ng policy
>of termina^ng protable product lines. Thousands curse TSR for cuing
o
>some of the AD&D campaigns; hobbyists are en^ced with promises of further
>products and then abruptly dumped to fend for themselves.

You should know as well as I that aver a certain point, product lines
really start to drop in sales because (a) GM's of that line have customized
their campaign so much that any new material doesn't t, or (b) the line
has become stagnant, and any changes made in the world to put life back into
it are vilied by the line's fans (for example, Greyhawk Wars). When
the revenue from sales no longer even pays for the price of prin^ng,
it is ^me to go.

Alternately, a line may have a handful of really strong supporters,
but in general is not well liked by the gaming community (Spelljammer
is a perfect example of this - most people hate it, but those that
like it _love_ it). They weren't selling anywhere near enough SJ
material to pay for the paper it was on, and so it was canceled;
thus, all one thousand SJ fans protested, and TSR is painted the bad guy.

The Mail Order Hobby shop _never_ did well. It never moved a lot of
product. There are plenty of other gaming stores out there that
have the same material and can send it faster or sell it cheaper.
The hobby-shop division was converted into a sales support sta they are who retailers contact to get backlisted product. When the
MOHS closed, I put out an announcement on the net leing online
and mailorder stores know that the MOHS material was available
for purchase; quite a lot of product was shipped out across the
US as a result of this new team.

This new focus allows TSR to work on making games, and allows
retailers to work on their own promoôns, catalogs, and prices.
TSR just supplies the product. The hobby-shop support is s^ll there,
you just aren't dealing directly with the mechanics of TSR.

The thing that most people miss about the MOHS is the RPGA discount;
the RPGA is looking for another place to set up a similar arrangement.

- Sean (at home)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 10:50:04 -0500
From: Greg Yukl SW <gyukl@MELPAR.ESYS.COM>
In-Reply-To: <960331125701_260551534@mail06> from "Sean K Reynolds" at Mar 31,
96 12:57:02 pm

>
> The thing that most people miss about the MOHS is the RPGA discount;
> the RPGA is looking for another place to set up a similar arrangement.
>

I seem to recall that RPGA members could get old Dragon ar^cles
from TSR for a small price. I never used this myself -- partly
because I have so many old Dragons and partly because there
was never any easy way of nding out what was available.

S^ll, IMHO there have been a lot of really good resources in these
magazines (whether you play ADND or Mythus), and I'd like to
know if TSR has any plans for replacing this mechanism. And
if not, is there any chance that old Dragon material could
appear on the internet?

Greg Y
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 12:09:44 -0500

>I seem to recall that RPGA members could get old Dragon ar^cles
>from TSR for a small price. I never used this myself -- partly
>because I have so many old Dragons and partly because there
>was never any easy way of nding out what was available.

Actually, you can get old _Polyhedron_ issues through the
RPGA; anybody could get the Dragon Magazines through the MOHS.
I think the back issues were some of the things that were in
high demand when the MOHS closed, and as a result they have been
picked up by various online and mailorder retailers.

>S^ll, IMHO there have been a lot of really good resources in these
>magazines (whether you play ADND or Mythus), and I'd like to
>know if TSR has any plans for replacing this mechanism. And
>if not, is there any chance that old Dragon material could
>appear on the internet?

Well, I have been puing selected ar^cles from Dragon (ones that
we hold the copyright for) online in our AOL forum, and when we
get our own WWW site I plan to put them there, too.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 12:44:16 -0500

Reynolds" at Apr 1, 96 12:09:44 pm

>
> >I seem to recall that RPGA members could get old Dragon ar^cles
> >from TSR for a small price. I never used this myself -- partly
> >because I have so many old Dragons and partly because there
> >was never any easy way of nding out what was available.
>
> Actually, you can get old _Polyhedron_ issues through the
> RPGA; anybody could get the Dragon Magazines through the MOHS.
> I think the back issues were some of the things that were in
> high demand when the MOHS closed, and as a result they have been
> picked up by various online and mailorder retailers.

Actually, the MOHS only had the last 30 or so issues at any given ^me. You
could actually get ar^cles through RPGA from issues long out of print -somebody there would photocopy them for a small amount, but only for RPGA
members.

> Well, I have been puing selected ar^cles from Dragon (ones that
> we hold the copyright for) online in our AOL forum, and when we
> get our own WWW site I plan to put them there, too.

I'm glad to hear this. The fact that you're willing to do this
shows that TSR can't be all bad :-).

Greg Y
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 13:18:30 -0500
Subject: Gygax news
X-To: aleric@intergate.com, JSloan@blkbox.com

Just thought I'd post this here. Its from the RPG newsgroup but might have
more meaning to some of the subscribers of this list.

Here goes:

Subject: Gygax to go to Atlus Games
From: thanatos@interaccess.com (Timothy Toner)
Date: 1 Apr 1996 00:48:08 -0600
Message-ID: <4jnu78$4sl@thymaster.interaccess.com>

Gygax moves to Atlus Games

In December, Wizards of the Coast announced that it was
discon^nuing their roleplaying game lines, and selling them o

to the highest bidder. Atlus Games, which produces such notable
games as Over the Edge, On the Edge, and Once Upon a Time,
purchased Ars Magica, once the creaôn of Mark Rein8Hagen and
Jonathan Tweet. Speculaôns have been ying about what
direcôn ArsM would take in Tweet's capable hands.

However, no one could have foreseen Tweet's hiring of E. Gary
Gygax as the new Ars Magica developer. According to sources,
Gygax is the natural choice to lead the game back to its roots,
and into the future. The rst thing that would go, according
to Gygax, is the magic system. Long considered cumbersome and
overly complex, the rst product for ArsM 5th ediôn is The
Grimoire, a 500+ page work which will contain every spell
Gygax ever though of. Also, Magi will be de-emphasized in lieu
of more balance between the various occupaôns, which he calls
"classes." Demons, too, will take on a greater role than they
played in ArsM 3rd ediôn. Gygax said that Ars was a very good
idea that, with a likle tweaking, would become a very solid
game.

-Timothy Toner ------ School Librarian ------ thanatos @interaccess.com

Revenimus, MF!
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 13:21:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Gygax news
X-To: aleric@intergate.com, JSloan@blkbox.com

Of course, this could be just a handy dandy April fool's joke. In that case,
oooops!

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 14:48:15 -0600
Subject: legal quesôn for Sean

At the end of a long pedan^c post (I have a tendency to do that, a
reason I never post) I asked a quesôn about the legal status of what is
wriken here. As we have a member of the loyal opposiôn listening, I was
wondering if he could give us a denite answer from his people.
What exactly is the legal status of what we create here? Should
the impossible happen and tsr resurrect Mythus, can they publish what we
have wriken here?
Or let's say we develop some great ideas here on the list and write
an ar^cle or an adventure from those ideas. And we publish it. Is there a
problem with the rights to that product because it was developed and
'eshed out' with a system owned by tsr? Does the fact that Mythus was
used in the discussions limit our right to distribu^ng that someday? Or
even using it in another guise.
I guess I am afraid that the notes on Mythus and games we scribble
on this virtual notepad might be kept by your company. Electrons have a
nasty habit of s^cking around and if you are keeping your posts, you are
in eect monitoring our creaôns here. I'm not accusing you of that, and
I think you have as much a right as any of us to be here. But we don't know
who'll be in your seat next, we don't know if they'll have your records,
and we don't know how they'll use them.
I guess I don't want to someday try to publish something and have
your company pull up a record of my working on a similar idea using your
game system on this list. Like I said, I got nothing against you. I just
gure its beker if we all are square.

Thanks

Eric
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 14:15:20 -0700

At 01:21 PM 4/1/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Of course, this could be just a handy dandy April fool's joke. In that case,
>oooops!

Jeez, I hope not, that would suck, and seeing Gary back in the gaming
industry would be great.... but I hope Atlas has alot of money.

___
| \_/\/____ ____/ _/ \_ 'exible.'"
| |_) | ___|/` _ \| \_/ \ --Richard Cross, Murder One
| _ <| __>| /_\ | |_) )
| |_) | \| ` ' | \
__|____/|____|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 17:12:37 PST


>Well, I have been puing selected ar^cles from Dragon (ones that
>we hold the copyright for) online in our AOL forum, and when we
>get our own WWW site I plan to put them there, too.

Hey Sean,
Here's a thought:
Since you guys are making ar^cles from Dragon available (which are,
I assume, from out of print issues), why couldn't you put some ar^cles
from MMM up as well?

Dave=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 17:16:01 PST
Subject: Re: legal quesôn for Sean

> I guess I don't want to someday try to publish something and have
>your company pull up a record of my working on a similar idea using your
>game system on this list. Like I said, I got nothing against you. I just
>gure its beker if we all are square.

If you publish *anything* it is eec^vely copyrighted, although you have a beker
chance of protec^ng it if you put something like the following in your post:

Copyright (C) 1996, Dave Newton. All Rights Reserved.

The s^cky part is, if you write something for a game system you don't own (i.e.
Mythus or AD&D), you can't copyright the work (generally, but I'm sure a lawyer
could be more specic). In other words, you cannot copyright a Mythus sourcebook,
as TSR owns the work; but you can copyright a scenario which gives general
informaôn and has a high uniqueness. Above all, do not use stats and other parts
of a game that are derived from someone else's game system!!!

Bokom line is this: If you have something you don't want lived and used by
others, DON"T POST IT. There's a nasty habit of some people on the net called
piracy (not that pirates are all bad, mind you...). And not only that, I doubt
anyone here has the nancial means to take on someone like TSR (Gary didn't
succeed primarily because they tossed out a LOT of money to kill DJ, making new
moôns, calling for deposiôns, etc.). But you get the idea.

If you have something new, which violates no copyright infringement, register the
copyright. It costs $20, and and most lawyers or other professionals would be happy
to tell you how to get the proper forms.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 17:34:26 PST
X-cc: Timothy Toner <thanatos@interaccess.com>

Awww. Hate to spoil your fun, guys, but I just spoke to the old gnome himself, and
while he thought it was funny, Tim was pulling your leg. Nice one, though.

By the way Tim, your check is in the mail...

Dave=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 17:43:12 -0500
Subject: Re: MYTHUS-L Digest - 30 Mar 1996 to 31 Mar 1996

>>Sean: "Is it so odd that a game company would want to focus on making
games, rather than trying to run a retail-sales ouit that was never making
money?"<
(later:) "I realize that you certainly are one of the people with a grudge
against TSR (possibly legit, possibly not), but whatever you do, DO NOT
ATTACK ME PERSONALLY!"<<

Sean, I shall resist the temptaôn to lead o, as you did, with groundless
inferences about mo^ves or grudges. I don't think it would be fair to try
to tell people what *you* think. Instead, I shall s^ck to the facts.
Your most receent statement is fascina^ng, and more than a trie
bizarre. Did anybody see one iota of personal akacks in anything I wrote?
Lord knows enough personal akacks y on this and other lists (including
some heat between me and the courageously outspoken Dave N.) -- but you're
wrong here; reread what I sent.
Here's a more salient point. Sean, you posted that quesôn while wearing
your Ocial Hat (sig "Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator TSRinc@aol.com
| AOL: keyword TSR | hkp://users.aol.com/tsrinc/". (Is that a Sig or an Ad?
Whatever...) Now you brazenly akempt to hide behind whinings of 'no fair,
personal akack' aver aun^ng that ^n armor. I'm calling you on that
right here and now. [Thanks, btw, for wri^ng "Sean (at home)" at the end of
your response; THAT, at least, was not an Ocial TSR Progagandizement.]
And when you say "Divide the man from the company. Got it?" I suggest you
heed your own advice, and be a trice more careful when you're wearing your
TSR hat.
And of course I don't hold you responsible for TSR decisions. We all know
who makes those.

>>When the revenue from sales no longer even pays for the price of prin^ng,
it is ^me to go.<<

Not quite. It's ^me to revise the size of the print run... say, down to a
measly 3-5 ^mes what most companies run. But as I pointed out, in a
corporaôn to which ROI is the dominant factor, that's not a viable opôn.

>>The thing that most people miss about the MOHS is the RPGA discount; the
RPGA is looking for another place to set up a similar arrangement.<<

I see... dump it and then wait to see if enough people complain, eh? Imnsho,
shoulda set up the alterna^ve and *then* folded the MOHS, if it had to go.
(But I err again; that would have been puing the buying public before the
return on investment. ::sigh::)

JFM

ps#1: I stand rmly with TSR, Dave Newton, and many others as regards
copyright and enforcement thereof. We 'umble writers have likle but our
creaôns; the rights to same are called 'intangibles', and the legal
vagariês of this country require us to aggresively defend those rights.
Unlike criminal law -- presumed Innocent un^l proven Guilty -- creaôns
are presumed Free un^l proven Owned. Screwy, eh? Write your congressmen.

ps #2: John Danovich was with NIPI, and got burned (as did all of us) when it
folded. Being part of the Turnbull/Niebling cadre, he adopted their biased
an^-Gygaxian viewpoint, I'm sure.
Hm; to be fair, since I'm part of the Gygaxian aka an^-Turnbull cadre, I'm
prolly biased too. ;>

Gee, I wonder what woke ME up... :/

JFM
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 17:46:16 -0500

> What exactly is the legal status of what we
> create here?

Anything you write is automa^cally copyrighted.

> Should the impossible happen and tsr resurrect
> Mythus, can they publish what we have wriken
> here?

No, as that would be stealing _your_ copyrights. If TSR saw this and
wanted to print it, TSR would have to contact you and buy the copyright
o of you.

> Or let's say we develop some great ideas here on
> the list and write an ar^cle or an adventure
> from those ideas. And we publish it. Is there a
> problem with the rights to that product because
> it was developed and 'eshed out' with a system
> owned by tsr?

The problem in this is that TSR does not allow people to publish
works deriva^ve of their game systems, except through TSR and TSR
periodicals (Dragon and Dungeon). You couldn't publish it anywhere else.
But that does not change that if you created what you were trying to
publish, it is copyrighted by _you_.

> Does the fact that Mythus was used in the
> discussions limit our right to distribu^ng that
> someday?

No. You could take all the Mythus stu out of it and use it in an
ar^cle for another game , or even for your own unique RPG and it would
s^ll be all yours. TSR owns Mythus, but not everything created under the
blanket of Mythus. If you create a new creature called the "Reynard" with
a certain descripôn, behavior, and mys^cal powers, you own the
character copyright on the Reynard. If you put the Reynard into Mythus
stats, then TSR owns that par^cular expression of the Reynard in Mythus
stats, but _you_ s^ll own the Reynard creature, and could translate it
into GURPS, MERP, etc.

> I guess I am afraid that the notes on Mythus and
> games we scribble on this virtual notepad might
> be kept by your company.

Well, AFAIK, I am the only one on this list who works for TSR, and
I'm not keeping the posts from it. Even if I were, if you had records of
it, you would easily be able to prove that you posted it (and if this list
is archived, that would show it, too).

> Electrons have a nasty habit of s^cking around
> and if you are keeping your posts, you are in
> eect monitoring our creaôns here.

Well, I'm not. It's not why I'm here (I try to avoid being any sort
of net-cop if at all possible).

> I guess I don't want to someday try to publish
> something and have your company pull up a record
> of my working on a similar idea using your game
> system on this list.

It would be your idea, your copyright.

> If you publish *anything* it is eec^vely
> copyrighted, although you have a beker chance
> of protec^ng it if you put something like the
> following in your post: Copyright (C) 1996,
> Dave Newton. All Rights Reserved.

True - in the US, at least, copyright is xautoma^c, but puing a
no^ce on it denitely helps (and other people can't say "Uh, I didn't
know it was copyrighted").

> The s^cky part is, if you write something for a
> game system you don't own (i.e. Mythus or AD&D),
> you can't copyright the work (generally, but I'm
> sure a lawyer could be more specic). In other
> words, you cannot copyright a Mythus sourcebook,
> as TSR owns the work; but you can copyright a
> scenario which gives general informaôn and has
> a high uniqueness.

Hmm, I think that if you did a lot of research into (for example)
lycanthropy, and took that knowledge and put it into a form compa^ble
with Mythus, TSR would have control of it if you tried to publish it as a
Mythus supplement, but if you took that very same knowledge (which you
researched) and made a supplement for another game, or a "generic"
supplement, or even a story of some sort, TSR would not control it.

I hope I have claried this somewhat.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 21:13:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Mail Order etc./MMM

>Since you guys are making ar^cles from Dragon available (which are,
>I assume, from out of print issues), why couldn't you put some ar^cles
>from MMM up as well?

Actually, I am going to ask our legal counsel tomorrow (when she
gets back from imprisonment in Costa Rica) if it would be possible
to get the en^re contents of MMM available online (on AOL, GEnie,
and vp.mpgn.com).

Note that one big obstacle might be the copyright status of the
informaôn in the magazines. If the contributors released
control of their copyright, then we'd be able to post them,

but if the authors retained the copyright on their ar^cles,
then that would require geing the permission of each of
those authors before we could put it online.

I can't take any credit for this idea ... it was suggested to me
by another listmember (unfortunately, I cannot remember who, and
no longer have that piece of mail ... was it you, Tom?).
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 22:53:48 -0500

>Actually, I am going to ask our legal counsel tomorrow (when she
>gets back from imprisonment in Costa Rica) if it would be possible
>to get the en^re contents of MMM available online (on AOL, GEnie,
>and vp.mpgn.com).

Err...forgive me Mythus fans for asking about this--but, what's the story
with counsel being imprisoned in Costa Rica.

>Note that one big obstacle might be the copyright status of the
>informaôn in the magazines. If the contributors released
>control of their copyright, then we'd be able to post them,
>but if the authors retained the copyright on their ar^cles,
>then that would require geing the permission of each of
>those authors before we could put it online.

There was only one special deal--for adventure scenarios. All copyright was
Trigee's or OHL, and From What I know, copyright transfered from Trigee to
TSR. Thus, all ar^cles are yours to publish.

>
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 23:16:36 -0500

>Err...forgive me Mythus fans for asking about this--but, what's the story
>with counsel being imprisoned in Costa Rica.

I'm actually joking ... she was on vacaôn in CR and will come back
to work tomorrow.

>There was only one special deal--for adventure scenarios. All copyright was
>Trigee's or OHL, and From What I know, copyright transfered from Trigee to
>TSR. Thus, all ar^cles are yours to publish.

Well, that should make it easier....
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 03:21:32 -0500
Subject: More news on the EGG-man!! ;)

Here's a bit more for you avid EGG followers:

Subject: The latest development in Gygax going to Atlus Games
From: gt7219a@prism.gatech.edu (Chris Lawyer)
Date: 1 Apr 1996 18:50:48 -0500
Message-ID: <4jpq4o$3tu@richsun10.gatech.edu>

As E. Gary Gygax's career has progressed, his systems for rules
an magic have goken more and more complex, but with this new
move, Gygax is said to have nally made a breakthrough in gaming.

"With this new system I'm developing, you will actually be able
to cast real magic spells in real life. All my years in bizare and
arcane game mechanics have nally paid o. We have the technology."
said Gygax.

Reacôn to this development has been mixed. Many of the followers
of the "new age" religeons have promised to buy a copy, and in a random
survey of 1000 gamers (Gallup Poll) the overwhelming response was,
"coooooool".

But strong oposiôn has come from The Moral Majority. Many such
leaders as Pat Robertson and Oral Roberts were outraged. "See, I've
been saying all along that role-players were in communion with
the devil, but noooooone would belive me. I told you so! I told
you so!" said Oral Roberts.

further details as they are released.

Chris Lawyer

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 14:46:51 -0500

In a message dated 96-04-01 21:16:34 EST, Sean wrote:

>I can't take any credit for this idea ... it was suggested to me
>by another listmember (unfortunately, I cannot remember who

Twas me. Thanks for following through.

Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 15:34:42 -0500
Subject: Da Dragon

Has anyone else seen the column on GDWs demise in the back of Dragon #227?

All that was missing was the sub-^tle of "Look what we accomplished".

Everyone is en^tled to opinions, here's one of mine:

"A gaming company owned magazine should refrain from reviewing other gaming
companies and/or their products. Is anyone really silly enough to think
they'll be objec^ve?"

Later
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 17:11:17 -0600
Subject: Newsgroup pos^ng by sean

1 - I found this on rec.games. frp.dnd. I got this from a responsing

post - my isp sucks - and I am afraid I don't have the original:

On Mon, 1 Apr 1996, Sean K Reynolds wrote:

> This is just a quick note, as I am at home and this is a long
> distance call to netcom from here. I came in to work today and was told
> to clean out my oce. Apparently due to disagreements with management
> over the possible TSR web page, I have been red. They already have some
> other guy lined up to take over my job. Je something. More info later,
> I goka call my folks.
>
> Rather pissed,
>
> - Sean

If this is true, then good luck sean and welcome to the ranks of those
screwed by t$r.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 18:32:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Newsgroup pos^ng by sean

At 05:11 PM 4/2/96 -0600, Eric Medalis wrote:
>1 - I found this on rec.games. frp.dnd. I got this from a responsing
>post - my isp sucks - and I am afraid I don't have the original:
>
>On Mon, 1 Apr 1996, Sean K Reynolds wrote:
>
>> This is just a quick note, as I am at home and this is a long
>> distance call to netcom from here. I came in to work today and was told
>> to clean out my oce. Apparently due to disagreements with management
>> over the possible TSR web page, I have been red. They already have some
>> other guy lined up to take over my job. Je something. More info later,
>> I goka call my folks.
>>
>> Rather pissed,
>>
>> - Sean
>
>If this is true, then good luck sean and welcome to the ranks of those
>screwed by t$r.
>
For explanaôn, to those who weren't keeping up on TSR, Sean was keeping an
/UNOFFICIAL/ site. TSR was not willing to produce their own web site. The
site is very plain--no frills, no logos, no TSR Art--he followed the legal
policy for TSR regarding intellectual property. He also menôned on the
site that he disliked the limitaôns, and felt TSR badly needed an ocial
site, and he was working on geing it.

Apparently, TSR isn't as exible as some would like to believe. I also
have to wonder if anybody in the deep found out about the Mythus negoâôns.

In any case--guys, I think you should not expect anything from TSR. Project
Lazarus is--from this persona's perspec^ve, a pipe dream. Concentrate on
suppor^ng the game yourselves, rather than direc^ng energies towards
ocial resurrecôns.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 19:25:55 -0500

Um, it was an April Fools' Day joke, everyone. TSR has not red me
(or threatened to), I am s^ll here, and I don't expect to be leaving
any ^me soon.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 19:27:11 -0700

On Tue, 2 Apr 1996, Sean K Reynolds wrote:

> Um, it was an April Fools' Day joke, everyone. TSR has not red me
> (or threatened to), I am s^ll here, and I don't expect to be leaving
> any ^me soon.

You know what? I'm really star^ng to hate April Fools Day. When
are people going to realize that other people might, just MIGHT, not get
the joke?!

Chris Davies.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 20:59:31 -0600

>Um, it was an April Fools' Day joke, everyone. TSR has not red me
>(or threatened to), I am s^ll here, and I don't expect to be leaving
>any ^me soon.
>-well i'm glad ya s^ll got a good secure job with the dominant company in
gaming's. There's a few round here aint so lucky. at least i wasn't the
only one fooled - the newsgroups likered with 'em.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 10:47:09 -0700
Reynolds" at Apr 1, 96 05:46:16 pm

> Anything you write is automa^cally copyrighted.
>
> > Should the impossible happen and tsr resurrect
> > Mythus, can they publish what we have wriken
> > here?
>
> No, as that would be stealing _your_ copyrights. If TSR saw this and
> wanted to print it, TSR would have to contact you and buy the copyright
> o of you.
>
> > Or let's say we develop some great ideas here on
> > the list and write an ar^cle or an adventure
> > from those ideas. And we publish it. Is there a
> > problem with the rights to that product because
> > it was developed and 'eshed out' with a system
> > owned by tsr?
>
> The problem in this is that TSR does not allow people to publish
> works deriva^ve of their game systems, except through TSR and TSR
> periodicals (Dragon and Dungeon). You couldn't publish it anywhere else.
> But that does not change that if you created what you were trying to
> publish, it is copyrighted by _you_.
>
> > Does the fact that Mythus was used in the
> > discussions limit our right to distribu^ng that
> > someday?
>
> No. You could take all the Mythus stu out of it and use it in an
> ar^cle for another game , or even for your own unique RPG and it would
> s^ll be all yours. TSR owns Mythus, but not everything created under the
> blanket of Mythus. If you create a new creature called the "Reynard" with
> a certain descripôn, behavior, and mys^cal powers, you own the
> character copyright on the Reynard. If you put the Reynard into Mythus
> stats, then TSR owns that par^cular expression of the Reynard in Mythus
> stats, but _you_ s^ll own the Reynard creature, and could translate it
> into GURPS, MERP, etc.

Sean: I'm not sure you have a basis for sta^ng this. I took a media law
class back in my more collegiate days, and dis^nctly remember a case where
a script was submiked to a lm company for the sequel to another movie and
rejected. The script's writer rewrote the script, removing all references
to the original movie universe, changing names, etc. and resubmiked it to
another company. The original company sued him (and won) in the "deriva^ve
works" realm.

Isn't what you've suggested kind of the same situaôn?


=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 13:24:07 EST
In-Reply-To: <199604031747.KAA01556@usr4.primenet.com>; from "Aaron P.
Brezenski" at Apr 3, 96 10:47 am

> > No. You could take all the Mythus stu out of it and use it in an
> > ar^cle for another game , or even for your own unique RPG and it would
> > s^ll be all yours. TSR owns Mythus, but not everything created under the
> > blanket of Mythus. If you create a new creature called the "Reynard" with
> > a certain descripôn, behavior, and mys^cal powers, you own the
> > character copyright on the Reynard. If you put the Reynard into Mythus
> > stats, then TSR owns that par^cular expression of the Reynard in Mythus
> > stats, but _you_ s^ll own the Reynard creature, and could translate it
> > into GURPS, MERP, etc.
>
> Sean: I'm not sure you have a basis for sta^ng this. I took a media law
> class back in my more collegiate days, and dis^nctly remember a case where
> a script was submiked to a lm company for the sequel to another movie and
> rejected. The script's writer rewrote the script, removing all references
> to the original movie universe, changing names, etc. and resubmiked it to
> another company. The original company sued him (and won) in the "deriva^ve
> works" realm.
>
> Isn't what you've suggested kind of the same situaôn?

Actually, what Sean is talking about is a diernt
situaôn. Most publishing companies and, I'd presume, lm
companies as well, have a policy wherein they consider any solicited

or unsolicited submissions to be property of the company, regardless
of whether it actually reaches publicaôn or not, unless the work
specically states that the author is retaining copyright (which
means that, chances are, it won't get looked at, I understand).
What we're doing here isn't a submission to a company, but a strange
sort of self-publicaôn (in a manner of speaking...American law
hasn't quite caught up with the technology yet). Therefore, the
situaôn which you described doesn't apply, I would think.
Of course, if you were to send in your Mythus rules and
scenarios and what have you directly to TSR for submission for
publicaôn, then the situaôn you described would apply.

Lucifer >:}

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 11:38:44 -0800

At 07:25 PM 4/2/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Um, it was an April Fools' Day joke, everyone. TSR has not red me
>(or threatened to), I am s^ll here, and I don't expect to be leaving
>any ^me soon.
>
>
YOU! ! ! . . . ummm, ,..
good one,
I really fell into that one. I was about to oer yo a similar job at my
place ( on-line coordinator ),
Good Luck,

Pancho
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 14:42:50 -0500

>What we're doing here isn't a submission to a company, but a strange
>sort of self-publicaôn (in a manner of speaking...American law
>hasn't quite caught up with the technology yet). Therefore, the
>situaôn which you described doesn't apply, I would think.

Furthermore, those of us in the USA live in a country where
(unfortunately) you can sue someone for just about anything
and some^mes win. I mean, a person dumb enough to take the
lid o of a cup of coee, place it in her lap, and drive out
of a speed-bumped parking lot somehow managed to win a seklement
from the fast-food place that sold her the coee (it was "too hot,
unneccesarily so"). My point is that just because someone wins
a lawsuit against another doesn't mean that the former was actually
right (which I'm certain many people on this list would be inclined
to agree with, and yes, I know that was not the exact situaôn...).

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 14:53:03 -0500

On Tue, 2 Apr 1996, Sean K Reynolds wrote:
> Um, it was an April Fools' Day joke, everyone. TSR has not red me
> (or threatened to), I am s^ll here, and I don't expect to be leaving
> any ^me soon.

Bravo....bravo...ya son of a bitch... :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 21:36:39 -0500
Subject: Zoltan Grose Re: Beasâry

Well, Zoltan, my check was mailed out on Monday of this week, so you should
have received it by now, or perhaps today. Please tell me when you get it, so
that I'll be sure that it got to you. It will, of course, be a check from my
mother, since I'm barely old enough to drive. :-)
And, how long can I expect it to take for the Beasâry to arrive at my
door? Thanks.

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 00:25:14 +0000
Reply-To: zoltan@slip.net
Subject: Re: Zoltan Grose Re: Beasâry

Just got the check. Beasê goes out before noon tomorrow, so
should hopefully get to you by Monday probably.

-z
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 18:03:04 -0500
Subject: Herbalism K/S

A quesôn for all you out there: (2 actually)
1. What, if anything, have you done with the herbalism k/s?
Completely rewriken it, expanded it, lev it alone? I'd like to see
anything thats been done so far.
2. Is there anything that you'd like to see done with herbalism.
I've got some interest in it, a small list of dierent herbs and suggested
eects, and could probably be pursuaded to put enough ^me into it to make
a submission for D.I., or whatever :) So far what I've thought of is lists
of herbs that are likely materia for the cas^ngs, rarity, values, where
they grow...

Respond to the list or privately, as you see t.
Thanks all,

Charles Hagenbuch
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 18:01:11 -0700
Subject: Listserv no^caôn corrupts mailbox...
In-Reply-To: <v01530500ad8a0491919a@[204.186.12.13]> from "Hagenbuch/Kohler"
at Apr 4, 96 06:03:04 pm

Every ^me I post to MYTHUS-L, the "Message sent out to umpteen members of
MYTHUS-L" no^caôn message corrupts my .incoming_mail le. Does anyone
else experience this? If so, have you discovered how to x it?

Aaron Brezenski

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 20:42:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Herbalism K/S

I think a herbalism appendix like thing would be wonderful! I don't think
there is anything with herbalism out there, unless you nd some obscure
formula in the Necropolis Campaign or Mythus Magick.

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 20:43:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Listserv no^caôn corrupts mailbox...

I think there is some way to tell the Listserv to NOT send the message post
no^caôn. Check the e-mail you received when rst subscribing, should
have info.

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 20:53:26 -0500
In-Reply-To: <v01530500ad8a0491919a@[204.186.12.13]>

On Thu, 4 Apr 1996, Hagenbuch/Kohler wrote:

> A quesôn for all you out there: (2 actually)
[snip]
> 2. Is there anything that you'd like to see done with herbalism.
> I've got some interest in it, a small list of dierent herbs and suggested
> eects, and could probably be pursuaded to put enough ^me into it to make
> a submission for D.I., or whatever :) So far what I've thought of is lists
> of herbs that are likely materia for the cas^ngs, rarity, values, where
> they grow...

YES!! This would be very much appreciated!!! No one has done any work on
the Herbalism K/S. I would love to see more informaôn on the subject,
largely because I have next to no knowledge in the area. The table in
Mythus Magick is only sucient to make me want to have more
informaôn. It hinders my roleplaying ability when I have played HPs
who know Herbalism to try and purchace material or nd it growing
naturally, but have no idea (because of player ignorance) what I am
looking for.

I have the same problem with Alchemy, but that's another maker.

--Ryan Snead
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:41:15 -0500
In-Reply-To: <v01530500ad8a0491919a@[204.186.12.13]>

Charles
Herbalism details are all that I'd want. I like the way the K/S Area is
set up, but I would really love to have some sort of list of herbs,
whether it be realis^c, fantas^c (ala Rolemaster), or whatnot. Your
ideas as to what the list should have is good. I'd include: name, uses
(not necessarily per Cas^ng, but that might be nice. I'm thinking more
like: "Greens. Good for Healing Poôns". ), where it grows according to
climate, etc.

Try to make the list fairly generic, so anyone might like to use it. I'd
help... :) Maybe what we can do is just take a bunch of the ones from RM
and convert them...what the heck, we're all crea^ng stu from
copyrighted material anyway, right? :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 15:09:06 -0500

>I'd include: name, uses (not necessarily per Cas^ng, but that might be
>nice. >I'm thinking more like: "Greens. Good for Healing Poôns". ),
>where it grows >according to climate, etc.

Maybe strength? and rarity? Something like: name, uses (cas^ngs), climate,
rarity, potency. Maybe that'd mean we'd need a system for potency, tho...??

>Try to make the list fairly generic, so anyone might like to use it. I'd
>help... :) Maybe what we can do is just take a bunch of the ones from RM
>and convert them...what the heck, we're all crea^ng stu from
>copyrighted material anyway, right? :)

Sounds good to me. I don't have Rolemaster, but I have a list that I've
compiled from various books I've read thats fairly extensive, and I have a
few other sources to pick clean. If you could handle the Rolemaster stu,
we could combine lists then, and see what we had. And my inclinaôn would
be to combine realis^c and fantas^c....just like realis^c and fantas^c
creatures are combined...

Oh, and contribuôns from anyone would obviously be welcome :)

Charles Hagenbuch
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 17:17:33 -0500
In-Reply-To: <v01530500ad8b29f52bfa@[204.186.12.46]>

Charles
Any chance we might be able to see the list of herbs you have? (with
maybe just a hint of what they are for...) I'll see if I can get the RM
herbs from my friend...anyone else actually own RM? :) We ought to try
to get organized...

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 23:20:11 -0500

>Any chance we might be able to see the list of herbs you have? (with
>maybe just a hint of what they are for...) I'll see if I can get the RM
>herbs from my friend...anyone else actually own RM? :) We ought to try
>to get organized...

I'm puing them into a database (so I can get them alphabe^cal :), just
name and brief descripôn for now, I'll post the list as soon as it's
done. If anyone has it and will admit it, I think there was a list of herbs
in the 1st Ediôn DMG....anyone know any other sources?

Charles
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 23:51:28 -0500
Subject: Herbs list (preliminary)

Okay, here's my preliminary list. Descripôns are not complete, and are
completely open too suggesôn. Also, I have a couple of sources that I
haven't had a chance to check yet, this is a quick run o of what I had on
hand. Here goes...

Agdana - speeds up reexes, highly addic^ve
Alether berry - small, bright orange berry; stamina/strength
Awana - cure disease, increase lifespan
Azawood leaf - large green-blue leaf; enhances magic
Breathroot - high oxygen content
Calacena mushroom - large, pinkish mushroom; hallucinogen
Demeril root - helps hand-eye coordinaôn
Dreame anenome - produces vivid dreams
Druce resin - from red bark of druse tree; cure plague
Gallowbrush - dark green thorny plant; sleep inducing
Graveweed - dark grey, thorny sprig; trance/death inducing
Haltweed - brownish-yellowish icky color; grows very quickly in
disturbed water
Larnuma fruit - plum-like purple fruit; highly nourishing
Laumspur - fern like plant; healing
Laumwort - related to laumspur, not as potent; healing
Lightleaf - has a slight phosphorescence
Mustow pod - yellow-brown seed pod; produces a choking gas
Neverwhere - almost transparent leaf; invisibility, displacement
Oede - silvery-blue delicate leaf; powerful healing aid
Oxydine root - deep-growing, tough purple root; kills bacteria
Panisil - ghts disease
Phinomal pod - silvery-brown seed pod; enhances steel
Sabito root - oxygen rich
Sessup - syrupy brown sap; highly toxic
Sinaka bud - small, deep red ower bud; heightens magical powers
Tarama seed - small, griky seed; memory enhancer

Temeris ower - pale blue ower; aid in travel dweomers
Tienelle - silver-green leaf, grows at high al^tudes; sharpens percepôn
drama^cally, produces potent poisons with no an^dote
Tonguehalt - makes it dicult to speak
Waterbane - water repellant
Yabari berry - yellow-brown, pulpy, foul-smelling berry; insect repellant
Zakutsk ower - small yellow ower (like a yellow snowdrop);
sharpens sight

Thats what I have for now.... I haven't even added in the ones from Mythus
Magick. Oh well, I'll get to it.. :)

Charles
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 07:42:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Herbs list and quesôns

>Okay, here's my preliminary list. Descripôns are not complete, and are
>completely open too suggesôn. Also, I have a couple of sources that I
>haven't had a chance to check yet, this is a quick run o of what I had on
>hand. Here goes...
>
>Agdana - speeds up reexes, highly addic^ve
>Alether berry - small, bright orange berry; stamina/strength
>Awana - cure disease, increase lifespan
>Azawood leaf - large green-blue leaf; enhances magic
>Breathroot - high oxygen content
>Calacena mushroom - large, pinkish mushroom; hallucinogen
>Demeril root - helps hand-eye coordinaôn
>Dreame anenome - produces vivid dreams
>Druce resin - from red bark of druse tree; cure plague
>Gallowbrush - dark green thorny plant; sleep inducing
>Graveweed - dark grey, thorny sprig; trance/death inducing
>Haltweed - brownish-yellowish icky color; grows very quickly in
>disturbed water
>Larnuma fruit - plum-like purple fruit; highly nourishing
>Laumspur - fern like plant; healing
>Laumwort - related to laumspur, not as potent; healing
>Lightleaf - has a slight phosphorescence
>Mustow pod - yellow-brown seed pod; produces a choking gas
>Neverwhere - almost transparent leaf; invisibility, displacement
>Oede - silvery-blue delicate leaf; powerful healing aid
>Oxydine root - deep-growing, tough purple root; kills bacteria
>Panisil - ghts disease
>Phinomal pod - silvery-brown seed pod; enhances steel

>Sabito root - oxygen rich
>Sessup - syrupy brown sap; highly toxic
>Sinaka bud - small, deep red ower bud; heightens magical powers
>Tarama seed - small, griky seed; memory enhancer
>Temeris ower - pale blue ower; aid in travel dweomers
>Tienelle - silver-green leaf, grows at high al^tudes; sharpens percepôn
> drama^cally, produces potent poisons with no an^dote
>Tonguehalt - makes it dicult to speak
>Waterbane - water repellant
>Yabari berry - yellow-brown, pulpy, foul-smelling berry; insect repellant
>Zakutsk ower - small yellow ower (like a yellow snowdrop);
>sharpens sight

Wow, naly something Mythus related and useful...

I asked about this before, but does anyone know where the list archives are
and how I can get them? (if they exist)

On more quesôn, how does movement for horses work exactly? I don't quite
grasp how endurance works and if it is depleated or not. An example or two
would be great. It just seems that a riding horse can only trave half a day
at a walk before needing superla^ve factors to con^nue (and risking the
chance of becoming lame).

Thanks,
Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 10:15:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Herbalism K/S (other sources)
In-Reply-To: <v01530500ad8ba05265a2@[204.186.12.19]>

On Fri, 5 Apr 1996, Hagenbuch/Kohler wrote:

[snip]
> I'm puing them into a database (so I can get them alphabe^cal :), just
> name and brief descripôn for now, I'll post the list as soon as it's
> done. If anyone has it and will admit it, I think there was a list of herbs
> in the 1st Ediôn DMG....anyone know any other sources?
There are a lot of other sources for herbal reference. Naturally, the
library is a good place to start. Another reference which comes to mind
is the Compleat Anachronist pamphlet series put out by the SCA (Society
for Crea^ve Anachronism). I know of two pamphlets in that series (The
Compleat Herbalist and the Herbal Grimoire) which deal with tradiônal
uses for herbs and herbal remedies. While the Compleat Anachronist
series is generally very good, it is tailored towards re-enacters and I
do not know how good these par^cular pamphlets are. At the very least,
they're very good in the SCA about documen^ng their sources. Are there
any other SCAdians on the list who might have access to these pamphlets?
Gary Spechko? Anyone?

Happy gaming!
--Ryan Snead
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 14:25:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Herbs list (preliminary)
In-Reply-To: <v01530501ad8ba84443a4@[204.186.12.69]>

Charles-
Care to include the Phaeree plants, listed in Aerth? (and, btw, included
in the Ph. Besâry stu somewhere...) They all seem to have likle
powers or, at least, a likle bit of colorful descripôn for avor...

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 14:32:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Herbalism K/S (other sources)

At 10:15 AM 4/6/96 -0500, Snead Ryan W wrote:
>Another reference which comes to mind
>is the Compleat Anachronist pamphlet series put out by the SCA (Society
>for Crea^ve Anachronism). I know of two pamphlets in that series (The
>Compleat Herbalist and the Herbal Grimoire) which deal with tradiônal
>uses for herbs and herbal remedies. While the Compleat Anachronist
>series is generally very good, it is tailored towards re-enacters and I
>do not know how good these par^cular pamphlets are. At the very least,
>they're very good in the SCA about documen^ng their sources. Are there
>any other SCAdians on the list who might have access to these pamphlets?
>Gary Spechko? Anyone?

I have access to these, yes... given a likle bit of ^me, I can get copies
for people interested in them. I can quote prices if people are interested.
Or, I can give the 1-800 # for ordering them (US only).

Take care,
Gary
NOTE: Coming change of address:
I will be ditching this account VERY SOON. I can be reached as
toray@crater.com instead. My home pages are now at:
hkp://www.crater.com/toray
hkp://www.crater.com/avacal
hkp://www.tdimports.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 00:20:19 -0400
Subject: status of herbs list

Okay, I've searched all the sources that are at my immediate disposal, and
the herbs list has grown to well over 200 entries. I'll refrain from
pos^ng it again because of the length, however I would post the nished
version to the list if there was enough interest. For those interested, the
sources that I've used so far are: Mythus Magick, Epic of Aerth, various
D&D accessories, and various books (Tolkien a likle, Empire trilogy Raymond Feist and Janny Wurts, Wars of Light and Shadow - Janny Wurts,
Earthsea trilogy - Ursala K. LeGuin). That about covers it. The following
list of herbs I've seen menôned in reference to herbalists, healers, etc,
but have no deniôns for:

bay
clovenfoot
fourfoil
gall
genân
goldenrod
marsh mallow
paramal
poke
purslane
rushwash
sorry
stargrass
starower
tansy
tassleower

If anyone can dig up a use for these, please send it to me. Also, if anyone
has any other sources, feel free to send me addiônal herbs. I'll keep
working on eshing out descripôns, etc.

Glad to be nally giving something back to you guys :)

Charles Hagenbuch
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 04:40:50 -0400
Subject: Re: status of herbs list
In-Reply-To: <v01530501ad8ceb3d5db5@[204.186.12.69]>

Charles
Do you have informaôn regarding which of the herbs is rare, common,
etc.? If you want, feel free to oer to send groups of herbs to people
in order to get some of the work done more quickly. It may take some
^me (right Daniel?) :) but what the heck. I know for one that I'd be
able to get plenty of info on herbs, and if nothing else, I'm sure I
could make something up... :)

There another thing: how much of this do you really want based on fact?
I'd just as soon be happy with a list of ones used with the Herbalism
Cas^ngs...

But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:02:19 -0400

In Mythus Magickx there is a secôn in the back about Reagents. I think
that was included to serve as a base for akempts to esh out K/S areas like
Herbalism and Alchemy. You simply research the plant life in a given
country, nd out what mythical connotaôns they had in Earth's legends,
thrown in a few curves because of AErth's dierent ^me-line, shake well and
VOILA! A Herbalism list (or an Herbalism list for those coun^res which
don't pronounce the iniâl "h"). Example: the rowan is a tree strongly
associated with magic in general and the faeries in par^cular in England.
In Albion such trees might be preferred as homes to dryads or as the wood
needed to make a pentacle wand. It might be assigned a class VII ra^ng (see
pp. 350-351).

If I didn't have to work for a living, I'd sit around and do stu like this
all day. Unfortunately, I do, so I must sign o here. I look forward to

someone else who wants to contribute the valuable ^me to sucha task and post
it on the list. I can recommend a few books to those interested
parês--just write me.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:18:10 -0400
Subject: Re: a reply to Frank's post

>Your most receent statement is fascina^ng, and more than a trie
>bizarre. Did anybody see one iota of personal akacks in anything I wrote?
>Lord knows enough personal akacks y on this and other lists (including
>some heat between me and the courageously outspoken Dave N.) -- but you're
>wrong here; reread what I sent.

You said "it hurts _you_ and helps _your_ compe^tors." _I_ am not
TSR. TSR is a big company that makes a lot more money than I ever will.
I don't have compe^tors; TSR does. Separate the man from the business,
Frank. Some people have a real problem doing that, but I am careful to
say "TSR" or "they" instead of "we." I am not TSR, and so when you direct
something my way (with a statement star^ng with "you"), and it is something
mean about TSR, please make sure that you address TSR and not me.

>Here's a more salient point. Sean, you posted that quesôn while wearing
>your Ocial Hat (sig "Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator TSRinc@aol.com
>| AOL: keyword TSR | hkp://users.aol.com/tsrinc/". (Is that a Sig or an
Ad?
>Whatever...)

Sounds like a nitpick to me. Don't be so peky. Plenty of other
people list their email and WWW in their sig; I don't see you accusing
them of having an "ad."

>[Thanks, btw, for wri^ng "Sean (at home)" at the end of
>your response; THAT, at least, was not an Ocial TSR Progagandizement.]

Actually, that means, literally, I am at home, and don't have access
to my macros, les, background material, and product list. It means I'm
answering on my own ^me, because I'm a nice guy.

>>When the revenue from sales no longer even pays for the price of
>>prin^ng, it is ^me to go.

>Not quite. It's ^me to revise the size of the print run... say, down to a
>measly 3-5 ^mes what most companies run.

Um, you know that reducing the print run increases the cost of
prin^ng, right? Reducing the print run from about 10,000 (what we
normally run) to 5,000 would almost double the prin^ng costs. So,
reducing the print run does not oset the break-even point enough.

>>The thing that most people miss about the MOHS is the RPGA discount; the
>>RPGA is looking for another place to set up a similar arrangement.

>I see... dump it and then wait to see if enough people complain, eh?

Since the MOHS was closed by an execu^ve decision, and the RPGA was
not consulted on this (they found out averwards, like everyone else).
RPGA had to scramble to nd an alternate. Please don't blame them.

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 13:05:50 EDT
Subject: A reply to Frank and Sean
In-Reply-To: <960408121804_186900948@mail04>; from "Sean K Reynolds" at Apr 8,
96 12:18 pm

<Sorry to send this to the list, but I don't have Mr.
Mentzer's email address. Otherwise, I'd send it privately. :) >

> >Your most receent statement is fascina^ng, and more than a trie
> >bizarre. Did anybody see one iota of personal akacks in anything I wrote?
> >Lord knows enough personal akacks y on this and other lists (including
> >some heat between me and the courageously outspoken Dave N.) -- but you're
> >wrong here; reread what I sent.
>
> You said "it hurts _you_ and helps _your_ compe^tors." _I_ am not
> TSR. TSR is a big company that makes a lot more money than I ever will.
> I don't have compe^tors; TSR does. Separate the man from the business,
> Frank. Some people have a real problem doing that, but I am careful to
> say "TSR" or "they" instead of "we." I am not TSR, and so when you direct
> something my way (with a statement star^ng with "you"), and it is something
> mean about TSR, please make sure that you address TSR and not me.

Guys, calm down. Unfortunately, in English, the dierence
between the plural 'you' and the singluar 'you' doesn't exist any
more (excep^ng, of course, down here in the South ;) ). If I say
something to the degree of 'You've really screwed up the industry'
in response to Sean's leker, it can mean, either, that Sean is the
problem or the company Sean works for is the problem (in which case
it includes Sean, but not necessarily implicates him personally,
another vagary of our language). I'm certain both of you know this,
but it doesn't hurt repea^ng (or emphasizing). I do see a problem
in that it doesn't seem that Sean is permiked personal opinion, but
such is the problem any ^me an individual who is a representa^ve
of a company e-mails from an individual account. Perhaps the
ambiguity between something coming from (and responding to) Sean the
man and something coming from Sean the TSR Rep would be solved by
either Sean seing up another address through which to send
personal opinions (which isn't hard on AOL, drop me a line if you're
interested) or by being very, very clear as to what is "ocial"
and what isn't. Of course, the problem with both of these is that
Sean 'the Man' and Sean 'the TSR Rep' oven comment on issues in the
same post (i.e. some personal comment is inserted here and there).
Those who write to a TSR Rep are going to, of course, address the
company as a whole, not just an individual (as would happen in a
snail mail leker). This also results in a lot of confusion, I
think, and hurt feelings.
I'm not certain exactly what the soluôn here is, but let's
let this thing drop before it gets out of hand. Lowly gamers like
me tend to deify people involved in the industry, and y'all (that
Southern thang) are really burs^ng my bubble here. :)

Lucifer >:} who thinks that if everyone adopted Southern
slang the world would be a beker place ...or, at least, return to
using 'thee's and 'thou's ;)

p.s. he also thinks that he was one of the few to realize
April 1 was April Fool's Day ;)

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 13:25:22 +0100
From: Tom <blusponj@BLKBOX.COM>

>>Your most receent statement is fascina^ng, and more than a trie
>>bizarre. Did anybody see one iota of personal akacks in anything I wrote?
>>Lord knows enough personal akacks y on this and other lists (including
>>some heat between me and the courageously outspoken Dave N.) -- but you're
>>wrong here; reread what I sent.
>
> You said "it hurts _you_ and helps _your_ compe^tors." _I_ am not
>TSR. TSR is a big company that makes a lot more money than I ever will.
>I don't have compe^tors; TSR does. Separate the man from the business,
>Frank. Some people have a real problem doing that, but I am careful to
>say "TSR" or "they" instead of "we." I am not TSR, and so when you direct
>something my way (with a statement star^ng with "you"), and it is something
>mean about TSR, please make sure that you address TSR and not me.
>
[snip]
>
>Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator

You know, this reminds me a lot of the rst ^me I posted on this board
and had to go one round with Frank. Lighten up - 90% of the insult is what
you imply from it.

Tom

BTW, Sean - s^ll working on that PostScript version of that Mythus HP sheet.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 13:30:25 +0100
Subject: The TSR trip

You know it occured to me about a week ago, while everyone was talking
about leker wriing campaigns and such, that there are quite a number of
people on this list that are also members of AOL (like me). If that is so,
then the Dangerous Journeys folder at the "ocial" TSR board should be
just burs^ng with posts! Is it? Not really. In fact, its good to see
one post a month - if that. S^ll, it's been there since the board went
online (I know - I created it). I might suggest that some of us AOLer's
echo some of our topics on the TSR board. Being seen creates interest,
interest implies money, etc. You get the picture I'm sure.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 14:40:18 -0400
Subject: Zoltan THANKS!

Thank you very much, Zoltan! I received the Mythus Beasâry today, just as
you said, and I'm very grateful for your service. Thank you again!

-Josuah =D
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 14:54:33 -0500

From: Clay Hanna <clayh@GENESIS.TAMU.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <960408121804_186900948@mail04>

Hi,
Why doesn't everyone just back o of Sean. He's here to help answer
quesôns people might have regarding TSR. Just because he works for TSR
does not mean that he should be under constant barrage here. Lighten
up. BEsides, despite all of the constant complaining that a lot of
people do here, I'd be willing to bet that a lot of you own TSR
products. My point is, if you are going to boycok something, the
products are the best way to get to a company, not its people.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
< >
< Clay Hanna Treat good with equal good, >
< Chair, MSC Nova Treat evil with Jus^ce. >
< Journalism Major >
< Class of '98 - The Brazen Rule >
< Email: Dragun@tamu.edu >
< Phone: (409) 691-8929 >
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 00:41:53 -0500
From: DARRELL BENNINGTON <VINEAS@VAX1.BEMIDJI.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Narco^cs?

Hey all of you GM's out there,

In one of my recent sessions (seing=medieval) one of my players
asked if there were narco^cs or some other kind of drug available in the
inn that he was staying at, this quesôn had never come up before, but I
thought to make my campaign more realis^c I should include the drugs of
the ^me, but I haven't really been able to nd anything on drugs in
medieval ^mes. I'm also not quite sure how to use addicôns and eects
in the Rolemaster System. Any help will be appreciated, thanks.

Darrell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:36:02 +0200

Dear Charles,

At 00:20 7-04-96 -0400, you wrote:

>Okay, I've searched all the sources that are at my immediate disposal, and
>the herbs list has grown to well over 200 entries. I'll refrain from
>pos^ng it again because of the length, however I would post the nished
>version to the list if there was enough interest. For those interested, the
>
>Charles Hagenbuch
>hagendaz@postoce.ptd.net
>

Please let me encourage you to send the completed version to the list. It
would be very welcome to the player of the Assassin/Toxicologist/Herbalist
in our group.

Thanks,

Harold Stringer
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:35:58 +0200
Subject: MYTHUS-L archives

At 07:42 6-04-96 -0500, you wrote:
(snip)
>I asked about this before, but does anyone know where the list archives are
>and how I can get them? (if they exist)
>

From the welcome message that was sent to me when I joined MYTHUS-L:

Contribuôns sent to this list are automa^cally archived. You can get a
list of the available archive les by sending an "INDEX MYTHUS-L"
command to LISTSERV@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (or LISTSERV@BROWNVM.BITNET). You
can then order these les with a "GET MYTHUS-L LOGxxxx" command, or
using LISTSERV's database search faciliês. Send an "INFO DATABASE"
command for more informaôn on the laker.

Harold Stringer
_____________________________________________________________________

Work: Private:
1315 KT Almere Tel/Fax +31 - (0)36 53 64 798
The Netherlands
Tel +31 - (0)36 53 43 445

Fax +31 - (0)36 53 47 265


_____________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 01:39:41 -0700
Subject: Re: Zoltan THANKS!

Wesley Miaw wrote:
>
> Thank you very much, Zoltan! I received the Mythus Beasâry today, just as
> you said, and I'm very grateful for your service. Thank you again!
>
> -Josuah =D

No prob.

-Z
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 08:47:16 -0600
Subject: Re: Narco^cs?

At 12:41 AM 4/9/96 -0500, you wrote:
> Hey all of you GM's out there,
>
> In one of my recent sessions (seing=medieval) one of my players
>asked if there were narco^cs or some other kind of drug available in the
>inn that he was staying at, this quesôn had never come up before, but I
>thought to make my campaign more realis^c I should include the drugs of
>the ^me, but I haven't really been able to nd anything on drugs in
>medieval ^mes. I'm also not quite sure how to use addicôns and eects
>in the Rolemaster System. Any help will be appreciated, thanks.
>

I use opium... it never seems to raise any eyebrows with the ultra-accurate
players... generally though, that's not a very reputable drug in it's
'normal' form... so add in 'laudanum' in some nice smoked glass bokles for
the more respectable establishments.

I've also used Krrf from the Theive's world books, which is some sort of
snu/cocaine stu, pressed into black bricks of the substance... scrape
o alikle and sni...

Hemp wouldn't be unlikely...

Thoughts?
___
_ C ..\__ "Our heart-strings have mysteriously akached
_/ \ ___| oo\ _ themselves to the City, and are drawing
| \_/\/____ ____/ _/ \_ us thitherforth again, as if it were
| |_) | ___|/` _ \| \_/ \ more in^mately our home than even
| _ <| __>| /_\ | |_) ) the spot where we were born."
| |_) | \| ` ' | \ --Hawthorne
__|____/|____|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:28:16 -0500

>I use opium... it never seems to raise any eyebrows with the ultra-accurate
>players... generally though, that's not a very reputable drug in it's
>'normal' form... so add in 'laudanum' in some nice smoked glass bokles for
>the more respectable establishments.
>
>I've also used Krrf from the Theive's world books, which is some sort of
>snu/cocaine stu, pressed into black bricks of the substance... scrape
>o alikle and sni...
>
>Hemp wouldn't be unlikely...

But what about addicôns, and penalês to acôns while "high"?

BIG d
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 11:33:47 EDT
In-Reply-To: <960409004153.16ba3@VAX1.BEMIDJI.MSUS.EDU>; from "DARRELL
BENNINGTON" at Apr 9, 96 12:41 am

> asked if there were narco^cs or some other kind of drug available in the
> inn that he was staying at, this quesôn had never come up before, but I
> thought to make my campaign more realis^c I should include the drugs of
> the ^me, but I haven't really been able to nd anything on drugs in
> medieval ^mes. I'm also not quite sure how to use addicôns and eects
> in the Rolemaster System. Any help will be appreciated, thanks.

Well, this is an area which modern medievalists don't seem
to have much informaôn on (aver briey checking my library), but
I'll try a conjecture.
Mind-altering drugs, especially hallucinogenics, were used
as far back as Ancient Egypt, during priestly ceremonies (to give on
a dream vision, a somewhat more advanced form than that of the
Amerinds) and, probably, Ancient Sumeria. It is thought that the
Oracle at Delphi was also strongly aected by the gases and incense
that were used in her chamber. It is also likely that mind-altering
drugs were used in Rome, especially during it's decline. However,
it would seem that any drug stronger than alcohol wasn't known to
the typical Low Medieval (from the Fall of the Western Empire in 476
to the Bakle of Has^ngs in 1066) noble. Na^ve tobacco wasn't
par^cularly smokable, and most nobles were far too busy bashing
their swords against each other to indulge themselves in such
luxuries. Aver contact with the east was reestablished by the
west, however, at the dawn of the Crusades (1096ish), drugs were
probably much more available through plunder or trade routes
(remember, the best of the mind altering drugs are Eastern in
origin). Chances are they'd s^ll be unknown to the general peasant
class (excep^ng mild 'accidental' drugs found in rural medicine),
but the nobility would at least have knowledge of them. Of course,
during the Renaissance period, there were very few nobles who didn't
have a fairly strong drug habit (maybe that can account for those
fun ouits, eh?). One thing is fairly certain, however: despite
the claims of some modern pagans, there is no evidence to suggest
that the western pre-medieval and so-called 'pagan' religions (such
as the Cel^c and Norse belief systems) used any sort of drugs in
their religious observances.
Basically, I suggest you make up your own. Opium wasn't
really known all that well in the west un^l, at the very least, the
10th century AD. Besides, it might be fun to make up your own drugs
and their specic aects. I hope I've been a likle helpful. If
anyone else is more knowledgable than me in this area, please
correct me where I've erred.

Lucifer >:}

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 11:56:55 +0100

>>Okay, I've searched all the sources that are at my immediate disposal, and
>>the herbs list has grown to well over 200 entries. I'll refrain from
>>pos^ng it again because of the length, however I would post the nished
>>version to the list if there was enough interest. For those interested, the

>
>Please let me encourage you to send the completed version to the list. It
>would be very welcome to the player of the Assassin/Toxicologist/Herbalist
>in our group.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Harold Stringer

I would suggest pos^ng it to one of the various Mythus Web sites. I'd
love to see this thing too, but I'm not sure I'd like to have to get it in
my mail.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:52:34 -0700
In-Reply-To: <960409004153.16ba3@VAX1.BEMIDJI.MSUS.EDU>

Which drugs were available, geographically? Weren't most of the drugs
imported from far regions? This is completely conjecture on my part, not
having studied this...but I vaguely remember drug origins. Is marijuana
an American development? Where did the opium poppies grow? The coca
plant? Which mushrooms grew where, originally? The things that seem most
likely to be available to an accurate medieval noble, to me, would be
coee, chocolate, alcohol, and opium. The adventurers could travel to
get the latest shipment of drugs from Mocca, for instance -- that strange
mixture of cocoa and coee...

Harold
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:08:57 -0400

Subject: The Narco^c thing--rst part

Here are my thoughts.

> Well, this is an area which modern medievalists don't seem
>to have much informaôn on (aver briey checking my library), but
>I'll try a conjecture.
> Mind-altering drugs, especially hallucinogenics, were used
>as far back as Ancient Egypt, during priestly ceremonies (to give on
>a dream vision, a somewhat more advanced form than that of the
>Amerinds) and, probably, Ancient Sumeria. It is thought that the
>Oracle at Delphi was also strongly aected by the gases and incense
>that were used in her chamber. It is also likely that mind-altering
>drugs were used in Rome, especially during it's decline.

The use of hallucionogenics would be likely in a non-magickal parallel, but
with AErth being a Heka-ac^ve millieu, I doubt many cultures have adopted
this, since Magick works. It wasn't ergot and mushrooms that makes witches
y in this world--it's black magick.

>Na^ve tobacco wasn't par^cularly smokable, and most nobles were far too
>busy bashing their swords against each other to indulge themselves in such
>luxuries.

From A Journeyer's Guide to AErth, Gary (Ernst) reveals that Tobacco from
the west was transplanted here, along with Squash and Tomatoes, (among other
things), and that the quality of life for the typical person (yes--peasant)
on AErth is much beker than it was on Earth. So--expect more smoking.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:36:50 -0400
In-Reply-To: <960409004153.16ba3@VAX1.BEMIDJI.MSUS.EDU>

On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, DARRELL BENNINGTON wrote:

> Hey all of you GM's out there,
>
> asked if there were narco^cs or some other kind of drug available in the
> inn that he was staying at, this quesôn had never come up before, but I
> thought to make my campaign more realis^c I should include the drugs of
> the ^me, but I haven't really been able to nd anything on drugs in
> medieval ^mes. I'm also not quite sure how to use addicôns and eects
> in the Rolemaster System. Any help will be appreciated, thanks.

There are two probable reasons that you don't hear a lot about drug use in
medieval Europe. First, the technology to process most of the potent stu
you see on the market today wasn't available at that ^me. Cocaine
originally gained the akenôn of Western chemical researchers because
it was thought that the leaves which na^ve Columbians chewed as a
headache cure might used as an anesthe^c.

Then, the nineteenth century neopolitan started using it recreaônally or as
a health promo^ng substance at the urging of such great medical authoriês
as Sigmund Freud (who later went into psychiatry). Siggie the Great (as he is
known to his friends) thought that cocaine was such a wonderful substance that
he expounded upon its benets in scien^c papers (which used some
not-so-scien^c methods) which were received with great derision by the
Vienna medical community. The story of how many other heavily processed
narco^cs came into existence (and popularity) is similar. Essenâlly,
they were almost all promoted at one ^me or another as health substances
based upon the naive assumpôn that what makes you "feel" good is good
for you, and what makes you feel "even beker" is well....even beker for
you.

Of course, not all the substances used in the late eighteenth and early
nineteenth centuries ended up on the list of street narco^cs today. The
man who discovered Nitrous Oxide (who went by the name of Ether) had some
very successful and up-roarous parites in his day, but you don't nd our
inner city streets likered with used Ethe cans, nor do you ever hear of
a kid going out to into the alley at the rear of the school to "suck some
mask."

Among the peasants, you would probably nd some use of what can quite
literally be termed "garden variety narco^cs," mostly poisonous
mushrooms which, when taken in small quan^ês, produce mild euphoric or
psychadelic states. However, depending on the culture, this would be
probably be preky rare in comparison with the widespread availability of
alcohol. Aver all, why go o into the woods to look for a patch of
mushrooms when stumbling into the pub is much closer and easier.

Among the nobles, alcohol and opium would probably be the only widely
used drugs. This is due to the culture. Had a servant DARED to oer
her lord a grubby mushroom, she would probably have been thrown into the
dungeon for akemp^ng to poison him at best or burned for witchcrav at
worst. On the other hand, alcohol was commonly used by members of all
social classes. Once it became available, opium was considered strange and
exo^c, as much for its Occidental origin as due to its excepônal rarity
and cost. This is one more example of how high cost is (oven falsely)
assumed to be correlated with high quality.

Now for the other reason why we don't hear a lot about drug use in
medieval Europe. Again, it comes back to culture. The chroniclers of
the day did not bother wri^ng down anything which pertained to the
meager aairs of mere peasants. This was en^rely beneath their
staôn. At best, a peasant was treated as likle more than a strong
and well behaved child. Even if a nobleman had heard of peasants geing
intoxicated o of strange mushrooms which grew in the forest, he would
be as likely to shudder at the thought of ea^ng wild forest plants as
he would be to think it would not aect him at all because of his noble
blood. Finally, it is quite likely that the occasional noble turned
addict thanks to his fondness for a mischevous serving wench. This
scenario probably accounts for many of the occurances of witchcrav and
'The Mad Baron ______' in Western history.

So, what do we take away from this history lesson to apply to AErth? How
about a narco^c mushroom or plant imported from distant Phaeree called
Goblinroot? This certainly ts the exo^c requirement of an AErth
nobleman. Alcohol and tobacco (which someone else menôned) would
probably nd widespread use. Opium would probably see more use in the
lower classes than it did in medieval Europe, perhaps even on the scale
seen in medieval China. (Opium was largely considered to be an
underclass drug by most Chinese, one of the more popular reasons they
didn't mind expor^ng it to the barbarians of the West.) Finally, local
plant life with narco^c or psychodelic eects would probably nd use
among the peasants as they probably did on Earth.

Of course, with organizaôns like 'The Accursed' or the occasional black
dweomercraever, there could be a medieval drug ring for your HPs to
inves^gate. That's only a suggesôn though.

Have fun!
--Ryan Snead
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 18:06:25 +0100
Subject: How common is that cas^ng?

I'm currently developing a full list of all the cas^ngs in the Mythus
Magick book with an extra column for "commonality", or more appropriate
word. This will let the player and JM know just what the chances are of
nding the cas^ng, how much it might sell for, how high in the magickal
order you have to be to get it, etc.

So far, I have a few bits of criteria. Named spells (Da Vinci's
Amazing...Cantrip) are automa^cally Very Rare - because they were created
by individuals and passed down through him. Troublesome cas^ngs, such as
Trigger Eect and Quicken, get a Rare ra^ng, just to keep their numbers
down in the game. Finally, most Grade IV cas^ngs get a Rare ra^ng, and
Grade X always get Very Rare, thus keeping them in low numbers and making
them VERY hard to get.

So how will this aect the HPs? I'm using a slightly modied system to
grant cas^ngs and determine Known/Recallable numbers. The "commonality"
will have a direct eect on this number (players may have to forsake a few
Commons to by a single Rare, and no HPs may begin with Very Rare cas^ngs
unless the JM grants them).

It's a long toll, though. I'd appreciate any suggesôns (or cri^cism)
for the list. Maybe I'll share when I'm nished. :)

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 19:14:05 -0400

>> In one of my recent sessions (seing=medieval) one of my players
asked if there were narco^cs or some other kind of drug available in the
inn that he was staying at, this quesôn had never come up before, but I
thought to make my campaign more realis^c I should include the drugs of
the ^me, but I haven't really been able to nd anything on drugs in
medieval ^mes. I'm also not quite sure how to use addicôns and eects
in the Rolemaster System. Any help will be appreciated, thanks.<<

Darrell, I'm not a GM, only a lowly player character, but, assuming your
world resembles a European Medieval seing, here are some of the narco^c,
hallucinogenic, etc, drugs that were available:

Belladonna, aka deadly nightshade, banewort: leaves can be smoked, made into
a tea, berries can be eaten. Hallucinogenic, easily poisonous.

Ergot: a fungus which grows on grasses, especially rye, hallucinogenic
(source of LSD25).

Henbane: root, seed and leaves are smoked or made into tea. Narco^c and
slight s^mulant, kills pigs and chickens. Contains scopolamine, a cerebral
seda^ve.

Ladyslipper: Dried rhizome and roots cause psychedelic reacôns and
hallucinaôns.

European Mandrake: root has narco^c properês, used to cast out demons and
as an anesthe^c.

European Mistletoe: The druids' favorite narco^c.

Monkshood, aka, aconite, wolfsbane: grows in the Alps and Pyrenees. The
witch's favorite drug. Tres hallucinogenic, and a cardiac, respiratory, and
circulatory depressant.

Opium: The common European garden poppy yields opium with 10% or more
morphine.

Scotch Broom: Can be used as a cardiac s^mulant and narco^c, although a
likle too much and bam, your respiratory and motor centers are paralyzed.
The tops of the plant smoked are said to be hallucinogenic.

Wormwood: its oil, mixed with alcohol and oil of anise makes absinthe, an
addic^ve narco^c, delirium, hallucinaôns, mental deterioraôn.
(Although you'll probably write some great poetry or plays before your brain
becomes a roken cork ;))

These are the main candidates for your area/^me period. Check out your
local used bookstore for some great books lis^ng herbs and their properês
-- see the "hippy chick" or "witchcrav/occult" secôn for books that list
the herbs that have interes^ng eects/uses.

I'll leave it to you DM'ly types to translate these into gaming terms, but if
you need any more details, let me know.

Meredith Eriksen
The Mere half of TimandMere
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 22:44:04 -0400

In a message dated 96-04-09 17:57:53 EDT, rwsnea@BIRDS.WM.EDU (Snead Ryan W)
writes:

>There are two probable reasons that you don't hear a lot about drug use in
>medieval Europe. First, the technology to process most of the potent stu
>you see on the market today wasn't available at that ^me.
>

>Among the peasants, you would probably nd some use of what can quite
>literally be termed "garden variety narco^cs," mostly poisonous
>mushrooms which, when taken in small quan^ês, produce mild euphoric or
>psychadelic states. However, depending on the culture, this would be
>probably be preky rare in comparison with the widespread availability of
>alcohol. Aver all, why go o into the woods to look for a patch of
>mushrooms when stumbling into the pub is much closer and easier.
>
>Among the nobles, alcohol and opium would probably be the only widely
>used drugs. This is due to the culture. Had a servant DARED to oer
>her lord a grubby mushroom, she would probably have been thrown into the
>dungeon for akemp^ng to poison him at best or burned for witchcrav at
>worst. On the other hand, alcohol was commonly used by members of all
>social classes. Once it became available, opium was considered strange and
>exo^c, as much for its Occidental origin as due to its excepônal rarity
>and cost. This is one more example of how high cost is (oven falsely)
>assumed to be correlated with high quality.
>
>Now for the other reason why we don't hear a lot about drug use in
>medieval Europe. Again, it comes back to culture. The chroniclers of
>the day did not bother wri^ng down anything which pertained to the
>meager aairs of mere peasants. This was en^rely beneath their
>staôn. At best, a peasant was treated as likle more than a strong
>and well behaved child. Even if a nobleman had heard of peasants geing
>intoxicated o of strange mushrooms which grew in the forest, he would
>be as likely to shudder at the thought of ea^ng wild forest plants as
>he would be to think it would not aect him at all because of his noble
>blood. Finally, it is quite likely that the occasional noble turned
>addict thanks to his fondness for a mischevous serving wench. This
>scenario probably accounts for many of the occurances of witchcrav and
>'The Mad Baron ______' in Western history.
>

Close, but I have to add a few notes. The number one reason why alcohol was
the drug of choice for both the nobility and peasantry: All that other shit
could kill you. Really fast. Belladonna berries: you might hallucinate,
you might just die -- depends on where the plant grew, whether there had been
a lot of rain or not. You have to work so much harder at killing yourself
with alcohol. At least un^l we invented cars.

And the number one reason why there aren't many records of recreaônal drug
use is that it's hard to dene recreaônal drug use when you s^ll believe
that convulsions, seeing visions, and hearing voices are signs of witchcrav,
possession, or demons. All of the "drugs" I listed in my previous pos^ng
had legi^mate (at least for the ^me period) medicinal uses. How could most
people tell whether the strange visions they experienced were from the
sickness, the cure, or God? And most of the people who persevered with drug
use wound up on a pyre or in a noose, condemned as witches. As a maker of
fact, it has been hypothesized that many of the "witch" outbreaks in Europe
and America were related to outbreaks of Ergot (another of the drugs on my
list) which caused townspeople to hallucinate en mass (since they had used
the ergot infected rye to make their bread.)

Alcohol was denitely safer for most of the populace. Hell, ale was served
for breakfast, lunch and dinner. The devil you know.....

Mere
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 22:45:29 -0400

In a message dated 96-04-09 13:54:46 EDT, harold@SVPAL.ORG (Harold Ogle)
writes:

>>Is marijuana an American development? Where did the opium poppies grow? The
coca
plant? Which mushrooms grew where, originally? The things that seem most
likely to be available to an accurate medieval noble, to me, would be
coee, chocolate, alcohol, and opium. The adventurers could travel to
get the latest shipment of drugs from Mocca, for instance -- that strange
mixture of cocoa and coee...<<

Hemp is actually na^ve to Central Asia and India. And opium poppies are
na^ve to the Middle East, southeast Asia and Asia Minor. The common poppy
is na^ve to Europe and Asia, (the red one) and although it doesn't have the
alkaloids to make morphine, it is s^ll, folklorically at least, known to
have seda^ve and hypno^c properês. The Coca plant is a new world plant,
so the coke ends in your party are out of luck, if you're in a medieval
Europe seing. And sadly, it is the new world that has most of those great
mushrooms, too. The only European mushrooms that I can seem to nd dirt on
;), are deadly long before they become too much fun. But I could be just
missing info here.

And about the whole coee and chocolate thing. Not to be picky, but as the
coee and candy buyer for Dean & Deluca here in DC, and I've learned a lot
more in the last three years about coee and chocolate than anyone should
have to know. And coincidentally, the campaign that my character is involved
with is just about to launch an expediôn to discover coee. So at the
risk of boring you: Coee didn't really get cranking in Europe (amongst the
nobility) un^l some^me between 1650, when it was used mainly for medicinal
purposes, and the 1700's when it became rmly established among the
trendsekers. And chocolate beat coee by a small margin, late 1500's, not
showing up in wri^ng un^l 1604 or so. I could go on, but I'll spare you,
unless your campaign is also moving toward the coee/chocolate growing
regions of your world.

But then again, it's your world.....

Mere
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 00:26:38 EDT

In-Reply-To: <960409224400_466239167@emout10.mail.aol.com>; from "Timothy L.
Francis" at Apr 9, 96 10:44 pm

> And the number one reason why there aren't many records of recreaônal drug
> use is that it's hard to dene recreaônal drug use when you s^ll believe
> that convulsions, seeing visions, and hearing voices are signs of witchcrav,
> possession, or demons.

Just a quick historical note. During most of the medieval
period, convulsions, visions and such were just as oven considered
givs from God as givs from Lucifer. There are several documented
cases of individuals claiming to have actually spoken with the
Almighty or his agents, and there were ^mes when Bishops and even
Popes would recognize such individuals as being 'blessed'. It
wasn't, truly, un^l the Reformaôn and Counter-Reformaôn that
the Church started seeing demons in just about any sort of abberrant
behavior.

> use wound up on a pyre or in a noose, condemned as witches. As a maker of
> fact, it has been hypothesized that many of the "witch" outbreaks in Europe
> and America were related to outbreaks of Ergot (another of the drugs on my
> list) which caused townspeople to hallucinate en mass (since they had used
> the ergot infected rye to make their bread.)

It's most strongly believed to be true of the Salem, Mass.
asco, but probably had a lot to do with scares in other periods,
as well. (no correcôn, there, just backing you up ;) ).

Lucifer >:}

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:26:59 -0400
Subject: Ergot would be very rare on Aerth

One thing to note is that ergot is considered a crop blight.

And with Heka from a wide variety of pracôners, you can bet that a simple
cas^ng would prevent this mundane type of blight from aec^ng most crops,
or that puricaôn rituals/cas^ngs would be applied to the processing
process.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:52:07 -0400
Subject: Re: How common is that cas^ng?
In-Reply-To: <v01520d00ad90479716c1@[206.109.96.185]>

Tom
Good to see you've con^nued this thought! (Commonality) I remember that
we had talked about this a while ago, and I actually s^ll have a page or
two of notes I scribbled up on them. If you want to share the work, or
at least share ideas of how it will all work, feel free to drop me a line.

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:57:04 -0400

My take (probably unpopular):

Someone just take the herbs people have listed thus far, and toss some
game mechanics at them. You don't have to be precise with any of the
details, for two reasons. 1. It's a game. But we all know that. 2. Who
can say what the eect of a Heka-Ac^ve milieu will have on everyday
substances? You can do whatever you want.

I remember in a campaign of mine, there was a black wizard (who was
against the HP's, of course), who used a powder made from nightshade
mushrooms. This increased his ability to control Heka (gave him like 25%
more Heka or something like that), but when it wore o the was^ng
eects on his body lev him with 6D6 PD.

There. No rules. I just made it up. I tempted one of the players to
use it, but he never got the chance. :) I think that it is interes^ng
to provide the players with a chance to greatly improve their HP's power,
at some tough cost. Most players are humble enough to avoid it, but you
know the temptaôn is fun to watch! :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:04:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Ergot would be very rare on Aerth
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960410122659.00709378@âc.net>

John Troy:
> One thing to note is that ergot is considered a crop blight.
>
> And with Heka from a wide variety of pracôners, you can bet that a simple
> cas^ng would prevent this mundane type of blight from aec^ng most crops,
> or that puricaôn rituals/cas^ngs would be applied to the processing
> process.

Of course, any witchcraver worth anything would be able to cause a
simple mundane likle crop blight without much trouble... :) (Not that
I'm really disagreeing, just that there could be extenua^ng circumstances)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:04:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Narco^cs? (fwd)

Dave sent this to me, at the end is my response... :)

---------- Forwarded message ---------Date: Wed, 10 Apr 96 10:19:28 PDT
To: Jesse <jgris@acsu.Bualo.EDU>

>My take (probably unpopular):
>
>Someone just take the herbs people have listed thus far, and toss some
>game mechanics at them. You don't have to be precise with any of the
>details, for two reasons. 1. It's a game. But we all know that. 2. Who
>can say what the eect of a Heka-Ac^ve milieu will have on everyday
>substances? You can do whatever you want.
[please repost]

The problem with an approach like this is that, while it is appealing in its
simplicity, it generates an ungodly amount of house rules specic to your
campaign. If that is not a problem, go for it. Otherwise, your rules can't easily
translate into another's campaign.

We've all been there with the EGS, haven't we?

Dave--ME:

Dave, kill me with that EGS talk why don't you?? :) Just kidding. I
wasn't implying that we don't have any sort of organizaôn. Just try to
make it a likle more accessible, and less dicult to come up with.
For instance:

Blackroot. Rare. Temparate Coniferous Forests. This herb forms the major
ingredient in the Paralyzing Oil Formula (Herbalism, page 22?). It can
occasionally be bought in larger ciês or well-stocked apothecaries.
Can also be used to treat warts. Faint licorice aroma.

There. That's just o the top of my head, adds fun to any game, and
anyone can use it. (Charles, write that one in to the list, eh? :)) ANd
that's just o the top of my head completely.

One other thing: We ought to include in the herb list, "Commonality" for
the herb in the wild as well as a DR for nding it in an average
apothecary (average meaning whatever...). That will give the party's
Herbalists an opportunity to roll the K/S Area more oven than just to
make poôns or make someone feel a likle beker...

Just my (wonderfully accurate) opinion... :)

Jesse
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:39:51 -0600
Subject: Re: Narco^cs? (fwd)

At 05:04 PM 4/10/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Blackroot. Rare. Temparate Coniferous Forests. This herb forms the major
>ingredient in the Paralyzing Oil Formula (Herbalism, page 22?). It can
>occasionally be bought in larger ciês or well-stocked apothecaries.
>Can also be used to treat warts. Faint licorice aroma.

Hehheh... <paraphrased>

==========
Willow: What are you feeding her?

Madmar^gan: Blackroot, she likes it.

Willow: You can't feed A BAby Blackroot!

Madmar^gan: What are you talking about?

Willow: _I_ have raised Two CHILdren, and you neverever feed them
Blackroot!

Madmar^gan: My mother fed me blackroot all the ^me... (looks at baby)
Puts hair on your chest.

Willow: _She_ does not need _hair on her chest! <stomps o>

Madmar^gan: <to baby, in baby voice> did ju see what he did? He took our
Blackroot! Yes he did... yes he did...

Madmar^gan: <whispered> Don't worry, i'll get us some more...

==========
_Willow_ --<C> Lucasarts , etc etc

I coudn't resist. :)

___
| |_) | \| ` ' | \ --Hawthorne
__|____/|____|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:21:17 +0200


Hi all,

Most of the replies have focussed on drugs derived from plants. Don't forget
that there are some interes^ng substances found in the animal kingdom too.

For instance, some pleople like to lick toads for a kick. Especialy the
small frogs from Amazonia that are used by the na^ves to poison their arrows.

This is just from the top of my mind, I don't have any references here at work.

Any more ideas for animal-derived hallucinogenics? I think there sould be
something derived from a type of moluscs also.

Bye,

Harold Stringer
_____________________________________________________________________

Work: Private:
1315 KT Almere Tel/Fax +31 - (0)36 53 64 798
The Netherlands
Tel +31 - (0)36 53 43 445
Fax +31 - (0)36 53 47 265


_____________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:45:07 -0400
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19960411125547.1aef4f14@xs4all.nl>

Harold (and the rest of you bums... :))

I like the idea of crea^ng/using animals/animal parts to do cool stu
(i.e. magick). However, would the use of animals really fall under the
Herbalism K/S Area? I have been thinking of adding a new Heka-genera^ng
K/S Area called Animism or something like that to do just such a thing,
but I haven't had need for it...

My logic:

Herbalism = magick Botany
Alchemy = magick Chemistry
1Animism = magick Zoology

What about others? Are they needed? Ought there not be addiônal
magickal K/S's which are not based on something either in another game or
in history/mythology? Why not keep the above going, and make one called,
say, Physicism? It might be fun to create something new (rela^vely!) :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:51:42 -0400
From: Hagenbuch/Kohler <hagendaz@PROLOG.NET>
Subject: Lexicon of Herbalism

(thats my new name for the project :)

Here are a bunch of replies to various posts. Sorry I haven't goken back
to people sooner, but the week hit with a crapload of assignments, so I've
been backlogged.

>From Jesse's message:
>Do you have informaôn regarding which of the herbs is rare, common,
>etc.?

I'm working on it :) For the fantas^c herbs, I have the informaôn from
the source or I'm making it up. I'm researching the ones that actually
exist.

>I know for one that I'd be
>able to get plenty of info on herbs, and if nothing else, I'm sure I
>could make something up... :)

Feel free to work on stu. If you could get together the herbs from
Rolemaster that you menôned earlier and send it to me, that would be
great.

>There another thing: how much of this do you really want based on fact?

I'm going for an all-out mixture of whatever I can nd :)

>From Donald Eccles message:
>In Mythus Magickx there is a secôn in the back about Reagents. I think
>that was included to serve as a base for akempts to esh out K/S areas like
>Herbalism and Alchemy.

I'm now including the reagent class for all the herbs in the list. I'm
avoiding all of the resevoirs, because I don't think any plant life but a
large living plant (such as a tree) should be able to regenerate heka, and
no herbalist is going to carry a living tree around. Thats just my opinion,
of course, if anyone disagrees let me know and we'll come to a consensus.

>From Harold Stringer:
>Please let me encourage you to send the completed version to the list. It
>would be very welcome to the player of the Assassin/Toxicologist/Herbalist
>in our group.

>From Tom (Blusponge):
>I would suggest pos^ng it to one of the various Mythus Web sites. I'd
>love to see this thing too, but I'm not sure I'd like to have to get it in
>my mail.

I kind of an^cipated this reacôn. Therefore, anyone who wants to recieve
it via email should email me, and when its done (or the 1st version, anyway
:) I'll mail it out. I'll also submit it to the various Web sites (anyone
out there who wants to put this up on their site?) I'll post it on my own
site once I have a permanent one in college, but I'm not quite there yet.

If there's anyone who would be willing to look at the pre-nished copy of
the list and catch typos, suggest changes in rariês, reagant ra^ngs,
etc, please email me. I'd REALLY appreciate the edi^ng :)

Okay, sorry this got so long, I think I answered all the quesôns so far.
Thank you for the interest in this.

Charles Hagenbuch
hagendaz@prolog.net
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:57:11 -0400

>I'm currently developing a full list of all the cas^ngs in the Mythus
>Magick book with an extra column for "commonality", or more appropriate
>word. This will let the player and JM know just what the chances are of
>nding the cas^ng, how much it might sell for, how high in the magickal
>order you have to be to get it, etc.
>
>So far, I have a few bits of criteria. Named spells (Da Vinci's
>Amazing...Cantrip) are automa^cally Very Rare - because they were created
>by individuals and passed down through him. Troublesome cas^ngs, such as
>Trigger Eect and Quicken, get a Rare ra^ng, just to keep their numbers
>down in the game. Finally, most Grade IV cas^ngs get a Rare ra^ng, and
>Grade X always get Very Rare, thus keeping them in low numbers and making
>them VERY hard to get.
>
>So how will this aect the HPs? I'm using a slightly modied system to
>grant cas^ngs and determine Known/Recallable numbers. The "commonality"
>will have a direct eect on this number (players may have to forsake a few
>Commons to by a single Rare, and no HPs may begin with Very Rare cas^ngs
>unless the JM grants them).
>
>It's a long toll, though. I'd appreciate any suggesôns (or cri^cism)
>for the list. Maybe I'll share when I'm nished. :)
>
>Tom

I like this idea. One other thing to consider is where the HP's are looking
for the cas^ng. There is an apendix in the Aerth book (if you are using
that seing) that deals with the quality of magickal schools/universês
ect. in a specic state or country. This could extended to mean the level
of magick knowledge in those countries (if the schools are teaching
up-to-date material, that is). In any case, you might want to use the chart
on page 223 of the Aerth book as a modier or as maximum "commonality" (or
minimum rarity). There are ve steps, 1 being the best teaching
availiable, 5 being worse. This might be used like so:

Number Ra^ng Adjustment
1 +2 (rare to common)
2 +1
3 None
4 -1
5 -2 (rare to unavailiable)

Or something like that anyway. I know this just is just another
complicaôn that might just make the job imposible. I would suggest that
you rate only the spells the HP's request iniâly anyway.

Use/modify/throw-out as you see t. Tell me which though, I'm currious.
Any suggesôns are welcome.

Later all,

Chris

Oh.Yeay. When is DI 6 part II comming out? Jesse? Is there s^ll a
part II planed? Did I miss it?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:21:26 -0400
In-Reply-To: <199604121557.LAA27922@sparc1.glen-net.ca>

Commonality based on locaôn:

THis is a really good idea, and I just thought of a way to do it. You'd
need to separate/rank the naôns as to their innate "power" level and
which sorts of K/S's are available. You'd need to lable Commonality by
number, I think, since there would be many dierences. Let me work
through this (sorry if it gets a likle squirrelly).

Okay, if we're in Tibet (or whatever Aerth's equivalent is, no book with
me now) we're not going to be able to nd Grey Dweomercrav Cas^ngs
anywhere, except maybe some of the MOST common ones. On the other hand
you'd probably be able to get just about any Mys^cism ones (I guess).

So, what I'd say is, you'd have to create the list with not only a base
DR (or a number to represent it), but also a Locaôn Number or something
like that. Maybe this is geing too confused. But what the heck. A
Cas^ng with a ra^ng of "1A" would be Very Easy to nd in Region "A".
If you were in region B, perhaps it would be Easy to nd (it would be
labeled there as "2B".

I'm not exactly sure how all that would work itself out, but I'm sure
I've sown a seed or two...take it further please! I have to work... :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:32:43 -0400

>Commonality based on locaôn:
>
>THis is a really good idea, and I just thought of a way to do it. You'd
>need to separate/rank the naôns as to their innate "power" level and
>which sorts of K/S's are available. You'd need to lable Commonality by
>number, I think, since there would be many dierences. Let me work
>through this (sorry if it gets a likle squirrelly).
>
>Okay, if we're in Tibet (or whatever Aerth's equivalent is, no book with
>me now) we're not going to be able to nd Grey Dweomercrav Cas^ngs
>anywhere, except maybe some of the MOST common ones. On the other hand
>you'd probably be able to get just about any Mys^cism ones (I guess).
>
>So, what I'd say is, you'd have to create the list with not only a base
>DR (or a number to represent it), but also a Locaôn Number or something
>like that. Maybe this is geing too confused. But what the heck. A
>Cas^ng with a ra^ng of "1A" would be Very Easy to nd in Region "A".
>If you were in region B, perhaps it would be Easy to nd (it would be
>labeled there as "2B".
>
>I'm not exactly sure how all that would work itself out, but I'm sure
>I've sown a seed or two...take it further please! I have to work... :)
>
>Jesse

Hmmm....What?

How about using the extended DR table vs the HP's STEEP in whatever K/S area
to determine if they have access to a Cas^ng? This is sorta a extension of
what I said, the original cas^ng rules and what I think Jesse is talking
about. You take the iniâl ra^ng for the cas^ng (an extended DR), modify
it for the locaôn (a DR modier easier of harder by steps) and roll vs.
the HP's STEEP in that area. A scetchy example:

-A HP has Alchemy at STEEP 32.
-He is star^ng in AEgypt.
-He wants to start with Charnok's Corpse Golem Formula (which the GM rates
at Dicult because it is named but low grade)

So then chart on 223 is used like this:

Number DR mod
1 +2 (easier)
2 +1
3 0
4 -1 (harder)
5 -2

In this case, a +1. So the HP's modied diculty is Very Hard (.75) and
his nal chance is 24.

A bit long to gure, especially if you allow lots of star^ng cas^ngs

(which I don't). Of course you could always make the players chose the
cas^ngs they want and then roll for each. If they don't get the cas^ng,
too bad, they don't re-pick. This could also work for found tomes or
scrolls. All one must know is who made the book, and where it came from (or
use no modier).

Comments?

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:33:41 -0700
In-Reply-To: <199604121832.OAA02118@sparc1.glen-net.ca> from "Chris Dion" at
Apr 12, 96 02:32:43 pm

Chris wrote:
>Jesse wrote:
> >Commonality based on locaôn:
> >
> >THis is a really good idea, and I just thought of a way to do it. You'd
> >need to separate/rank the naôns as to their innate "power" level and
> >which sorts of K/S's are available. You'd need to lable Commonality by
> >number, I think, since there would be many dierences. Let me work
> >through this (sorry if it gets a likle squirrelly).
> >
> > [snip]
>
> How about using the extended DR table vs the HP's STEEP in whatever K/S area
> to determine if they have access to a Cas^ng? This is sorta a extension of
> what I said, the original cas^ng rules and what I think Jesse is talking
> about. You take the iniâl ra^ng for the cas^ng (an extended DR), modify
> it for the locaôn (a DR modier easier of harder by steps) and roll vs.
> the HP's STEEP in that area. A scetchy example:
>
> [example snipped]

I denitely like the ideas detailed so far. I think Jesse is
sugges^ng a system where two countries with the same educaôn level
in a cas^ng area would have a dierent set of common cas^ngs. For
example, Ritual of the Archer might be Very Easy to nd in one
country with an educaôn level of 2, while it is a Moderate DR to
nd in another country far away (but s^ll with an educaôn level of
2 in that area).

It's a nice idea to give addiônal avor to the magic of dierent
countries, but dicult to make into a system, I think. Perhaps a

way of doing something like this would be to make an addiônal
modier for named cas^ngs (Merlin's, Newton's, etc.) depending on
how close the country is to the Heka-user's homeland. Perhaps
something like:

Locaôn Modier
------------------------------- In home country 1 DR easier
In neighboring country no modier
On same con^nent 1 DR harder
Dierent con^nent 2 DRs harder

Thus a named cas^ng origina^ng in Francia that is Very Dicult
to nd would be merely Dicult if looking in Francia itself, a DR
of Extreme in Norge, and impossible to nd in Azir.

This might be too much of a complicaôn to what should be a
straighorward system, but you get the idea.

Steven
(who can't keep himself from throwing more possible modiers at this idea)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 22:19:38 -0400
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960412131504.16786B-100000@autarch.acsu.bualo.edu>

On Fri, 12 Apr 1996, Jesse wrote:

> Commonality based on locaôn:
[snip introductory comments & example]
> So, what I'd say is, you'd have to create the list with not only a base
> DR (or a number to represent it), but also a Locaôn Number or something
> like that. Maybe this is geing too confused. But what the heck. A
> Cas^ng with a ra^ng of "1A" would be Very Easy to nd in Region "A".
> If you were in region B, perhaps it would be Easy to nd (it would be
> labeled there as "2B".
>
> I'm not exactly sure how all that would work itself out, but I'm sure
> I've sown a seed or two...take it further please! I have to work... :)

I like the idea of assigning commonality to cas^ngs. It makes sense to
have certain guidelines concerning how likely an HP is to have learned
some cas^ngs. However, as to the naônal/regional availability, I
think we may be re-inven^ng the wheel. If you don't agree with the
numbers listed in Epic of AErth concerning the quality of heka educaôn,
that's ne; but there's no sense in rewri^ng rules if you're going to

end up with essenâlly the same thing.

As for the likelihood of nding a grey school dweomer in Lhasa, Tibet
(the only center of learning/populaôn worth menôning in that
country), I don't see why you couldn't look at the rarity of the dweomer
(which is worth crea^ng) and the quality of grey school magick in the
country and just interpolate. Aver all, if the magick is cul^vated,
there is likely to have been a fair amount of informaôn sharing (or
stealing, depending on the prac^ôners' philosophical bent)
cross-culturally anyway. The Archetypal cas^ngs are supposed to have
been around for hundreds of years, so why shouldn't word have goken
out? In the more backwater locales (where the educaôn quality is
generally 4 or worse), you probably wouldn't nd much of anything
anyway.

On the other hand, if prac^cioners on your version of AErth are real misers
with their informaôn, and cas^ngs are thus less likely to have crossed
cultural boundaries, select the cas^ngs you think would be culturally
appropriate for your campaign seing and give the list to your players for
selecôn. If they want something you didn't put on the availability list,
they have to convince you it is culturally and/or personna appropriate to
get it iniâlly. If they don't thouroughly convince you, the HP should
be permiked to have heard of the cas^ng if the player wishes and
akempt to aquire it through the course of game play.

Above all, I would not recommend having them roll for each cas^ng. This
seems to me to be overly conning, ^me-consuming, and unnecessary. In
the long run, it over-simplies the learning process while
over-complica^ng the HP creaôn process. Simple common sense and a
likle bit of cultural research on the part of the JM should be all that is
necessary.

As for how spell selecôn should relate to commonality, I would suggest
this. Each personna gets a certain gross number of cas^ngs (however you
determine this) in each k/s area. For simplicity, I will use the method
suggested in MM (I think), which is that the HP starts with their STEEP
percentage of the total archetypal cas^ngs available. Mul^ply this
gross number by the percentage listed on the quality of educaôn chart
found on p.223 in Epic of AErth (runs from 90% down to 50%). Aver
doing this, drop fracôns to nd the adjusted score. This adjusted
score should reect the total number of 'common' cas^ngs any person
trained as that HP has been would know. Treat this score as number of
points which the player can 'spend' to 'buy' cas^ngs. Of course,
standard and very common cas^ngs would be found readily and 'cost' fewer
points while uncommon and rare cas^ngs would cost more than one point.
Since we haven't standardized rarity ra^ngs yet, I won't bother
detailing how much each level of rarity would cost.

Comments? Quesôns? Flames? Blonde T$R lawyers?

--Ryan Snead
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:43:25 +0100

>Harold (and the rest of you bums... :))
>
>I like the idea of crea^ng/using animals/animal parts to do cool stu
>(i.e. magick). However, would the use of animals really fall under the
>Herbalism K/S Area? I have been thinking of adding a new Heka-genera^ng
>K/S Area called Animism or something like that to do just such a thing,
>but I haven't had need for it...
>

Ahh....Jesse, I think that's already a K/S Area called Phaeree Flora &
Fauna. I'm not sure that Mythus needs a K/S Area dealing with the specic
uses of magickal animals and their parts. If nothing else, I think that
this would fall much easier under the Alchemy K/S. I do agree that
Herbalism doesn't really cover animals.

>What about others? Are they needed? Ought there not be addiônal
>magickal K/S's which are not based on something either in another game or
>in history/mythology? Why not keep the above going, and make one called,
>say, Physicism? It might be fun to create something new (rela^vely!) :)
>

I'm considering a new K/S based o Somniomancy from the Bloodshadows
(Masterbook) game. It's basically dream magick. It would be a Spiritual
K/S area, and most of the cas^ngs would work in a sort of trance or dream
state (Yoga might be interes^ng to combine with this). I can imagine
materia being special incense formulas, etc. I might even take a bit from
Kult and CoC and form a certain "dream reality" which personas could aect
via this K/S. I think it might be fun.
Any suggesôns, advice, info would be great, especially in regards to a
new name for the K/S. :)

>Jesse

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 11:14:27 -0400
In-Reply-To: <v01520d00ad946efa832d@[206.109.96.129]>

> >Harold (and the rest of you bums... :))
> >
> >I like the idea of crea^ng/using animals/animal parts to do cool stu
> >(i.e. magick). However, would the use of animals really fall under the
> >Herbalism K/S Area? I have been thinking of adding a new Heka-genera^ng
> >K/S Area called Animism or something like that to do just such a thing,
> >but I haven't had need for it...
>
> Ahh....Jesse, I think that's already a K/S Area called Phaeree Flora &
> Fauna. I'm not sure that Mythus needs a K/S Area dealing with the specic
> uses of magickal animals and their parts. If nothing else, I think that
> this would fall much easier under the Alchemy K/S. I do agree that
> Herbalism doesn't really cover animals.

Well, Phaeree Flora & Fauna deals with essenâlly mundane informaôn
about the living things on Phaeree. This K/S would be more simply named
Phaeree Biology (at least the way i see it). But you are correct, a
simple way to accomplish it would be through Alchemy. My problem is, I
wanted to make a culture where living things were used in magick, without
the Chemical knowledge of Alchemy. So maybe if I just modify Alchemy a bit?

> I'm considering a new K/S based o Somniomancy from the Bloodshadows
> (Masterbook) game. It's basically dream magick. It would be a Spiritual
> K/S area, and most of the cas^ngs would work in a sort of trance or dream
> state (Yoga might be interes^ng to combine with this). I can imagine
> materia being special incense formulas, etc. I might even take a bit from
> Kult and CoC and form a certain "dream reality" which personas could aect
> via this K/S. I think it might be fun.
> Any suggesôns, advice, info would be great, especially in regards to a
> new name for the K/S. :)

Tom, how about "Snoromancy", or "Sleepomancy." :) I could write a bunch
from Talislanta to use as Sub-Areas for Wizardry...er...Dweomercrav,
sorry. Hate that word. For instance: Aeromancy, Aquamancy,
Crystalomancy (which would be good for Reservoirs), Geomancy, Pyromancy,
etc. It occurs to me that these are sort of specialês of
Elementalism. But heck, a specialist would be fun, I think... :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:53:29 +0100

Subject: New Magick K/S (was Re: Narco^cs)

>> I'm considering a new K/S based o Somniomancy from the Bloodshadows
>> (Masterbook) game. It's basically dream magick. It would be a Spiritual
>> K/S area, and most of the cas^ngs would work in a sort of trance or dream
>> state (Yoga might be interes^ng to combine with this). I can imagine
>> materia being special incense formulas, etc. I might even take a bit from
>> Kult and CoC and form a certain "dream reality" which personas could aect
>> via this K/S. I think it might be fun.
>> Any suggesôns, advice, info would be great, especially in regards to a
>> new name for the K/S. :)
>
>Tom, how about "Snoromancy", or "Sleepomancy." :) I could write a bunch
>from Talislanta to use as Sub-Areas for Wizardry...er...Dweomercrav,
>sorry. Hate that word. For instance: Aeromancy, Aquamancy,
>Crystalomancy (which would be good for Reservoirs), Geomancy, Pyromancy,
>etc. It occurs to me that these are sort of specialês of
>Elementalism. But heck, a specialist would be fun, I think... :)
>
>Jesse

I think Talislanta may have gone a bit overboard on the -mancy skills. In
the Mythus game, I think many of those are already covered, as you
menôned. If players wanted to specialize, they should do so through
spell usage, as was suggested by Dave Newton loooooonnnnnng ago.
S^ll, I think a K/S dealing with dreaming and dream magicks could be quite
interes^ng. If you wanted to be technical, I could probably do so with
Mys^cism or Divinaôn. S^ll, dreamworks have been the study of new
agers for quite some ^me, and there is nearly as much on dreams and the
art of dreaming as there is on Astrology. All I need to do is nd a few
sources and put it down on paper. Big fun!

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 13:03:00 +0100

[all prior comments snipped]

While there is certain merit to Jesse's idea, I think that the way to solve
it is not to code each country. Imagine in a world such as Aerth what that
could lead to!!! Now, I don't use Aerth, but it could eventually become
just as monstrous for me nonetheless. So I think the idea of modifying the
DR for nding the cas^ng by the degree of magickal educaôn in a country
is a good idea. Its simple, and could be done fairly quickly.

To use it in HP generaôn, the JM and player would have to agree on the HP

birth place very early in the process, and both would have to know the
modiers. I use Heroes of Legend for HP generaôn, so it isn't dicult
for me to do this.

I do disagree that this "commonality" system should only be used during HP
generaôn. I think that commonality makes a good reference point for any
JM. It also helps them jus^fy keeping certain cas^ngs out of the game.

So now we need to make the lists. I've preky much noted most of the
Dweomercraev cas^ngs already. I could spend them to the list for
cri^cism if that's ok with people - the list might be a bit long, but not
too much. I would also encourage those interested in this system t share
the task. Pick a Cas^ng group, code the commonality (explaining your
guidelines at the start) and list it. If we work together, we could
probably have a viable system by the end of the week. Revised lists could
be uploaded aver being cri^qued. What do you folks say?

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 11:19:25 -0400

Vargaard Veshing

Nova Scoân Woodsmen are repor^ng the si^ng of one or more giants in the
mountains on the outskirts of the state. At least one person has seen two
giants, throwing rocks at each other.

The red light district of Falcondon has changed of late. All the women of
this realm have started wearing a blue and gold ribbon, with no excepôns,
even if it clashes with their clothing. Supposedly, it indicates a conict
with some poli^cal or guild facôn in the city, but who or what it could
be only the Scarlet Madam knows.

Sir Paulus, the Vavasor of the Town of Ravenhaunt (an important river town
in Falcondonia), has begun to act queer of late. Known as a noble warrior
and protector, his manners and personality have begun to change. He has
started to decorate his tower in strange tarpings--some near pornographic,
others rather violent and bloody. He's passed some strange edits in the
town--a curfew for instance, and some bizarre rules like all taverns must,
when a round of drinks is purchased, spill a agon of ale on the oor "for
the glory of the kingdom!"

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 19:09:54 +-1200
From: James Flowers <jowers@NELSON.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Subject: MYTHUS STATUS CHECK

Just an enquiry about Mythus.

What is the status of this product? Are there any Besâries available? Now
that TSR has taken over the game, do they have any plans to do anything
more with the game? Or is it going to die the death of SPI's (IMO)
excellent DragonQuest product? Is Gary Gygax going to be publishing more
Mythus material (I've converted to Mythus, Gary. I think it's got some
great potenâl.)? What about third-party material and supplements? Are
there any? If we, as the roleplaying community, want to produce such
supplements, are we going to get shot down by the TSR legal engine?

Sorry about this. I'm curious about the future of this product, probably
like many before me. If these quesôns have been addressed previously, I
can only claim that I haven't yet read the digest back-issues.

BTW, I've been GMing for almost 20 years now. I started o with Gary's
(that is, Mr Gygax's) rst ediôn D&D rulebooks, along with the Chainmail
rules. AD&D quickly got boring, but that's another debate. I moved into
other games (RuneQuest, C&S, DragonQuest, Traveller, etc) and developed a
taste for richly detailed roleplaying games. I've had Mythus for a while,
but not done anything it un^l recently. The creature catalogs (sic)
weren't available at the ^me, and I didn't have the inclinaôn to develop
and en^re besâry, just to have it superceded by printed material. But my
players loved the game. But I didn't pursue it.

I've recently joined the list, and re-discovered the rulebooks, and decided
that Gary and friends might just have a good 'un this ^me. I really do
hope that the powers that be don't bury it in legal trash. With the
increase in popularity of CCG's, the roleplaying industry is going to need
all the support it can get from the loyalists.

Thanks for leing me use some of your e-space. I look forward to your
comments.

JAMES FLOWERS
jowers@nelson.planet.org.nz
hkp://www.nelson.planet.org.nz/~jowers/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:18:04 +0100

Subject: Re: MYTHUS STATUS CHECK

>Just an enquiry about Mythus.
>
[snip]
>
>JAMES FLOWERS
>jowers@nelson.planet.org.nz
>hkp://www.nelson.planet.org.nz/~jowers/

James,

Well, I hate to tell you this, but if TSR has its ways then Mythus will die
the death of SPI's DragonQuest. The pure irony of this is that you will
probably see a new Buck Rogers or Gamma World ediôn in a year or two.

Here's a project for all you readers. The next ^me you go to a game
store, ask the owner which sold more: Buck Rogers or Mythus. Guess which
answer I keep hearing. Oh, BTW, one of them has had a big rush on DJ
inquiries as of late. Seems a number of people have discovered the game
just a bit too late. I wonder if TSR considered this. Hell, with all of
us who con^nue to run the game, its inevitable that new people will be
coming into the game. Food for thought.

Back to James. The Aerth Besâry is s^ll available at many places (at
least here in Houston it is) as is Necropolis, which has a preky nice
Besâry in the back. Most of the books are available for 35-50% of their
original cost if you know where to look or what to ask. I just bought a
new set of the rst three (0-2) books for around $35. Real nice deal. So
keep looking, keep calling. Something might just turn up.

In conclusion, all I can tell you is to keep playing and developing the
game. The Mythus web pages have tons of info from fans and former
designers (I did it Mike!!! I converted it!!! Wooohooo!!!!). I'm
currently puing together a whole thing on spell rarity (sounds beker
than commonality). Soon, the whole of the 9,999 ar^facts of Aerth should
be being uploaded on an FTP near you. And that's just the beginning. At
this ^me, the internet is the new home of DJ. Maybe the execs at TSR will
get their asses out of their heads and revive the game (I s^ll think a
2nd. ediôn Mythus _could_ be fantas^c) but un^l then, we're on our own.
Don't worry though, you've got great company.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 04:23:38 -0400

Subject: Frivolus Cas^ngs, Pt. I

GEN DWEO V:

Repel Laundry Charm (100 Heka)

Time: 1 BT/STEEP
Area: 1 cubic foot/10 STEEP
Distance: 1 rod
E/F/M: This handy likle charm calls upon the Empyreal Plane to turn back
noxious denizens of the Lower Plane of Foul Laundry. The caster intones the
brief words of the charm while making wringing moôns with his/her hands.
Supernatural Fire is thus unleashed to surround the laundry and hold it at
bay. Simultaneously, enchanted animate chimes begin ringing at a frequency
designed to separate lth from laundry, in eect driving it insane. The
laundry must make a "Hard" DR vs. its SMCap or give up its dirt and vanish to
the plane of Lost Socks and Pens, never to return to its owner's laundry
basket again. On a Special Failure, however, the caster accidentally summons
a pair of Major Elementals (one water, one hot air) which proceed to give the
caster a good washing up, inic^ng 4d6 damage (versus Average Armor
Protecôn) of Heat and Chemical to the poor dweomercraever before returning
to their home planes.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 11:31:02 -0400

In a message dated 96-04-09 11:30:13 EDT, you write:

>But what about addicôns, and penalês to acôns while "high"?
>
>

And Bonuses to acôns while Under the Inuence?
Like higher False PTrait for that silly likle PCP stu........

-C
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 15:44:18 -0400
Subject: Cas^ngs

Are witches and warlocks who have a Pact, the only magic wielders able to
cast eyebites?
(I know there is a General Dweomercrav cas^ng (Grade VI), that allows a

caster to speed up the cas^ng ^me of a spell.)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 18:03:16 -0400

More Vargaard News...

================================

The Small Hamlet of Hanwilde, on the shores of the Northernmost Coastline of
Wildedge, has been suering from some odd occurances of late. Certain
Livestock have become ill on the edge of the community, while others have
completely disappeared. The local Sheri of the town suspects bandit
ac^vity, but a few townspeople have reported strange sigh^ngs of vauge,
tentacled sillouekes, though such sigh^ngs have been dismissed as the
imaginaôn of children or drunken delusions.

======================

Raspu^n has returned!
(a/k/a The Dark Magus, once of Russ, resurfaced in Grandmark, and later
exilled from Grandmark and became one of Vargaard's worst adversaries.)

The Dark Magus has apparently become ac^ve again, as noted by the recent
murder of a courier travelling from Nova Scoâ to Falcondon. His body was
found on the outskirts of the laker state. The poor postman's body was
found, oa^ng in mid-air 8 feet above the road, esh all transformed to a
fulgenious coloraôn, with a molten metal replacing the subjects mid-chest,
formed in the seal of Raspu^n.

It was rumored that a projected message from Raspu^n was triggered when the
body was examined with heka, and subsequently akacked by Skullspooks.
It is believed the courier was carried something important, but what that
was is unknown.

=========================

The Benjamin Franklin School of Magick in Falcondon seems to have had an
accident within the manse. The west tower of the Mansion has been evacuated
and sealed. While news is kept quiet, it is akributed to either an
alchemical experiment gone awry or perhaps a conjuraôn problem.

==========================

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:20:46 +0100

>More Vargaard News...
[cool material snipped]
>John R. Troy (JRT)
>johntroy@âc.net

John,
Are you wri^ng for the Aerth seing, or for Castle Falkenstein, bud. I
don't know about Raspu^n (good call BTW) but I'm preky sure that Ben
Franklin is a bit further down the road.

John does bring up an interes^ng point, however. Would anyone like to
share their ideas on the BIG villians of Aerth? One in par^cular was
menôned by Gygax in _The Anubis Murders_, but I can't remember the
witch's name, and of course there was the demiurge from Necropolis.
Certainly there must other big badies, either from individual campaigns or
from history, that would nd things very homey in Aerth. Raspu^n is a
_real_ good one. How's about others?

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:23:31 +0100
Subject: Deity interacôn

Something that has never been really discussed here is how the dierent
pantheons of Aerth interact. If we are to assume that all the en^ês of
each pantheon are unique beings, and not simply great powers working under
various given names, then we have an awful lot of gods to consider. I
can't believe they'd simply ignore each other.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 20:13:10 -0400
In-Reply-To: <v01520d00ad99946b331c@[206.109.96.176]>

On Tue, 16 Apr 1996, Tom wrote:

> John does bring up an interes^ng point, however. Would anyone like to
> share their ideas on the BIG villians of Aerth? One in par^cular was
> menôned by Gygax in _The Anubis Murders_, but I can't remember the
> witch's name,

Louhi, the hag from Pohjola. She is an evil witch of, shall we say,
legendary proporôns, in that she is part of Finnish (er, Kalevalen)
mythology.

> Certainly there must other big badies, either from individual campaigns or
> from history, that would nd things very homey in Aerth. Raspu^n is a
> _real_ good one. How's about others?

Personally, I try to avoid cross-overs (they could be a bit dicey),
although it could be, um, interes^ng to throw the usurper Vladimir
Ulianov into Russ and see what happens (don't forget his lieutenant
Iosef).

-Mike Phillips, mike@lawlib.wm.edu | DR WHO: The Earth is
Mythus: hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/ | Out of Time!
Home page: hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/ | FOX May 14, 7:00pm
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 20:47:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Deity interacôn
In-Reply-To: <v01520d01ad99958875f8@[206.109.96.176]>

On Tue, 16 Apr 1996, Tom wrote:

> Something that has never been really discussed here is how the dierent
> pantheons of Aerth interact. If we are to assume that all the en^ês of
> each pantheon are unique beings, and not simply great powers working under
> various given names, then we have an awful lot of gods to consider. I
> can't believe they'd simply ignore each other.

They don't. In _The_Anubis_Murders_, Thoth (and, for that maker, the
rest of the AEgypân deiês) removed themselves because of the sheer
power involved in the situaôn. It makes a sort of sense, that the gods
would 'back o' from confrontaôn, simply because a clash on or near
AErth would be cataclysmic.

Aver all, if Sutekh started meddling rather than merely inuencing,
then Horus could, and Osiris, and it would spread *very* quickly, with
gods striding down streets, crushing their foes, and in very short order,
AErth would be no more.

As a result, most games (and game-masters) instead have deiês work
through their agents. They could directly inuence their agents

(visions, dreams, commands, etc), but they could not directely
intercede. Now, Kali does appear in _Death_in_Delhi_, but only because
Her servant called her to appear. In fact, her intercession is stopped
primarily because Setne threatened her with sancôns from the other gods:

[PROBABLE SPOILERS TO _DEATH_IN_DELHI_, since this comes from the climax]

"He cleared his throat. 'Thoth may not be potent in this place, just
as you have pointed out. S^ll, he knows what is occurring and will be
aware of my fate. He will communicate your compromise to those of your
own pantheon, Kali.'
"'Is that a fact? Dare you threaten ME?!'
"Again the tall AEgypân took a hasty backward step to stand pressed
against the cases. 'Threaten? Never, goddess. It is simply a fact I
state...'"

Of course, he had pointed out a problem earlier:

"'The form was blood. You did not give blood to your faithful,
Kali. You forbade them to take life by shedding it, in fact. Yet that
would be the eect of what you propose if Rachelle's life is taken by
you. You would be a surrogate of the witch, Sujata. She as your
priestess shed blood, and that blood would then be the proximate cause,
the means bringing death to another human.'
"'A ne point you make, mortal.'
"'Indeed, goddess, but in the end do not even the deiês stand or
fall on being able to dis^nguish such?'"

This led to Kali considering:

"It was not en^rely sa^sfactory. Sujata's con^nued existence would
be more favorable to Kali, make her stronger among the other gods."

This leads me to postulate that Mr. Gygax subscribes to the thought that
gods rise and fall by the rela^ve importance and strength of their
followers, not how many ^mes they've pummelled the other gods, and that
their very existence is linked to faith in them. If this is taken to be
the case, the gods would act *only* through agents, because ac^ng in any
other manner would cause serious disrupôns.

As for the interacôn of the religions themselves, consider that in some
cases, the faiths would have a belief that they will win in the end,
something that makes AErthly confrontaôn less likely. For instance, I
postulated that the Norse pantheon, with its belief in Ragnarok and the
convicôn that a new Norse pantheon would arise from the ashes, would be
reasonably fricônless. Aver all, they *will* win in the end.

However, the Greeks believed that their gods aged, so it is possible (if
not probably) that Zeus will eventually be replaced by a younger, more
vibrant deity, and that cults rise and fall. To them, evangelizing would
be more important, to keep their cults alive.

Take those thoughts for what they're worth, and extrapolate how you will :-)

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:27:38 -0400
Subject: AErth Personages

At 07:20 PM 4/16/96 +0100, you wrote:
>>More Vargaard News...
>[cool material snipped]
>>John R. Troy (JRT)
>>johntroy@âc.net
>
>John,
>Are you wri^ng for the Aerth seing, or for Castle Falkenstein, bud. I
>don't know about Raspu^n (good call BTW) but I'm preky sure that Ben
>Franklin is a bit further down the road.

Um, not really. There are some parallels in development. In MMM #4, Gary
has the Batsears hood, which was created by Nikola Tesla, the analouge of
our Nikola Tesla, who didn't exist un^l the late 18th Century, and you
wouldn't normally think of him having a role in Fantasy. Caligostro and
DaVinci also exist, the laker being late reinannsance, the former a 17th or
18th century personage. If he allows them, why not a few other historical
names.

Granted, you have to pick and choose carefully--no Hitler, JFK, or Elvis
analouges, since History takes a widely dierent path. But there may be
room for some leeway. Granted, King Arthur, Robin Hood, and the like had
their ^me. But, could such gures like Salvador Dali and Van Gogh,
Alester Crowley, Harry Houdini, Fredrick Neiszte (I KNOW I mispelled those
few names--it's the philosopher who said "When you look in the abyss the
abyss stares back at you") and Sherlock Holmes and the D'artangan also
exist?--Slightly altered of course to t the milieu. As long as one
doesn't go overboard.

Now, Vargaard isn't much like colonial Earth, but I felt it best to have a
few analouges. Since Falcondon/Grandmark/Wildedge is most "Western-based"
form, I decided to have Benjamin Franklin--one of the most renowned
inventors/scholars--be a White/Green Wizard, and becoming the founder of a
school in Falcondon, perhaps the only place to learn magick in the

underpopulated colony states (save for the southern states, as well as the
Ebondeep Pylon in Grandmark devoted to the Black School).

>John does bring up an interes^ng point, however. Would anyone like to
>share their ideas on the BIG villians of Aerth? One in par^cular was
>menôned by Gygax in _The Anubis Murders_, but I can't remember the
>witch's name,

Louhi, who in actuality is a Demigoddess or the like from Finnish Mythology,
which is why she's preky potent and able to give Setne such trouble.

>and of course there was the demiurge from Necropolis.
>Certainly there must other big badies, either from individual campaigns or
>from history, that would nd things very homey in Aerth. Raspu^n is a
>_real_ good one. How's about others?

Hmm. Let me think...concentra^ng on the laker years of history.

Marquis deSade probably existed. If he doesn't exist in the AErth ^meline,
I'll betcha he either died and became some form of undead creature or
perhaps he found long life via alchemy or some form of ritual involving his
perversions.

And speaking of Vampires--how much you want to be Dracula exists on AErth.
Probably have to up his rank to Supernatural, so he doesn't feel wimpy, or
some other form of unique power.

Raspu^n I felt worked best. I was inspired by both historical legend, as
well as a enjoyment of Mike Mignola's take on him in the rst Hellboy
mini-series. I envision him as a true Magus, a Demonurgist and Thaumaturge,
a sage, very powerful, nearly immortal. (Not truely, yet.)

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:27:53 -0400

At 07:23 PM 4/16/96 +0100, Tom wrote:
>Something that has never been really discussed here is how the dierent
>pantheons of Aerth interact. If we are to assume that all the en^ês of
>each pantheon are unique beings, and not simply great powers working under
>various given names, then we have an awful lot of gods to consider. I
>can't believe they'd simply ignore each other.

>

They don't.

What's been established by Mr. Gygax in his novels and Necropolis involve
Deital Cooperaôn among like ethoi. I assume, for instance, that most
Deiês are aligned by Ethos and general (Sunlight, Balance) across
Pantheons. Apparently, they cooperate so well that they recommend
priestcraevers in foreign lands cooperate with local pantheons with no
penalty to the persona.

Apparently, each Pantheon stakes claim on AErth lands/naôns, and mortal
bakles (with divine help) kind of aid in staking territory out. Thus, a
deiês power is likely to be more limited in foreign territory--which would
be dened as foreign lands or planes/spheres within another pantheon(s) pale.

There are some excepôns, of course. It's already be established that the
Pantheons of Babylonia, Lemuria, and Tecla are xenopatheophobic and opposed
to all other pantheons, so hos^lity is there. I suspect some deiês
across pantheons may be rivals, while others could be alies.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 21:54:15 -0600
Subject: Re: AErth Personages
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960417022738.006f19a8@âc.net>

On Tue, 16 Apr 1996, John R. Troy wrote:

> Um, not really. There are some parallels in development. In MMM #4, Gary
> has the Batsears hood, which was created by Nikola Tesla, the analouge of
> our Nikola Tesla, who didn't exist un^l the late 18th Century,

You meant, 19th century, right?

> analouges, since History takes a widely dierent path. But there may be
> room for some leeway. Granted, King Arthur, Robin Hood, and the like had
> their ^me. But, could such gures like Salvador Dali and Van Gogh,
> Alester Crowley, Harry Houdini, Fredrick Neiszte (I KNOW I mispelled those

Nietzsche. Probably the greatest advocate of the Shadowy Darkness
ethos ever ...

> Now, Vargaard isn't much like colonial Earth, but I felt it best to have a
> few analouges. Since Falcondon/Grandmark/Wildedge is most "Western-based"
> form, I decided to have Benjamin Franklin--one of the most renowned
> inventors/scholars--be a White/Green Wizard, and becoming the founder of a
> school in Falcondon, perhaps the only place to learn magick in the
> underpopulated colony states (save for the southern states, as well as the
> Ebondeep Pylon in Grandmark devoted to the Black School).
>
I dunno ... I think Franklin would actually have been an
Elementalist (most of the other "scien^sts-turned-dweomercraevers" from
Mythus Magick are, i.e. Galileo)

>
> Marquis deSade probably existed. If he doesn't exist in the AErth ^meline,
> I'll betcha he either died and became some form of undead creature or
> perhaps he found long life via alchemy or some form of ritual involving his
> perversions.

The Marquis gets a bad rap ... he was just a sicko who wrote a
bunch of books about things he probably never did ... the image he's given
in Waxworks is completely made up ...

> And speaking of Vampires--how much you want to be Dracula exists on AErth.
> Probably have to up his rank to Supernatural, so he doesn't feel wimpy, or
> some other form of unique power.

Oh yeah. Vlad Tsepes is a personal servant of Tchernobog (the guy
from "Night on Bald Mountain" in Disney's Fantasia) and he preky much
rules Transylvania from the scenes. Figure, at minimum, that he's a
Preternatural Vampire with maxed-out, Full Prac^ôner status as Wizard
Priest of Gloomy Darkness/Black School, add in master level abiliês in
Combat, Hand Weapons, and remove *many* of the limitaôns and
vulnerabiliês of the form. You think Bram Stoker's version of the Count
was nasty? That's on Heka-poor Earth, kids.

Chris Davies.
("Now they will learn why they fear the night ...")
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:48:04 +0100
Subject: Re: Cas^ngs

>Are witches and warlocks who have a Pact, the only magic wielders able to
>cast eyebites?
>(I know there is a General Dweomercrav cas^ng (Grade VI), that allows a
>caster to speed up the cas^ng ^me of a spell.)

Yes, the Witchcraev K/S is the only K/S area that gives Eyebites.
However, personas could create their own eyebite cas^ngs. This can cost
_a lot_!

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 00:02:52 +0100
Subject: Reference Books for Aerth

Geez, I can't believe I'm on an Aerth kick again. S^ll, the idea of
running a mediterranean based Mythus game sounds like fun. Besides, my
Falkenstein game is set in a similar place now, and it's easier to do
legwork for the two games at once. Thus, I may sit down and do some work
on Aerth's Venice. It should be fun.

So can anyone recommend any game material that might be oa^ng around
that comes in especially handy for background on Aerth. I'm thinking about
picking up a few of the Ars Magica supplements to help esh things out.
GURPS Greece may also have some good info. But what else, especially for a
Mediteranean based campaign?

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 08:54:44 +0200

Dear John,

At 22:27 16-04-96 -0400, you wrote:
>There are some excepôns, of course. It's already be established that the
>Pantheons of Babylonia, Lemuria, and Tecla are xenopatheophobic and opposed
>to all other pantheons, so hos^lity is there. I suspect some deiês
>across pantheons may be rivals, while others could be alies.
>
>==================
>John R. Troy (JRT)
>johntroy@âc.net
>==================

Can you give me a reference where I can nd more informaôn on the
xenopatheophobia of these pantheons? Especially Tecla.

Thanks,

Harold Stringer
biopharm@xs4all.nl
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 18:39:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Reference Books for Aerth


>But what else, especially for a
>Mediteranean based campaign?
>
>

I think White Wolf may have something about the Giovani vampires in Italy...

Bill

"Why for you put me in the cold cold ground?" T. D.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 19:34:35 -0400

In a message dated 96-04-16 21:22:27 EDT, mike@LAWLIB.WM.EDU (Mike Phillips)
writes:

>> John does bring up an interes^ng point, however. Would anyone like to
>> share their ideas on the BIG villians of Aerth? One in par^cular was
>> menôned by Gygax in _The Anubis Murders_, but I can't remember the
>> witch's name,
>
>Louhi, the hag from Pohjola. She is an evil witch of, shall we say,
>legendary proporôns, in that she is part of Finnish (er, Kalevalen)
>mythology.
>
>> Certainly there must other big badies, either from individual campaigns or
>> from history, that would nd things very homey in Aerth. Raspu^n is a
>> _real_ good one. How's about others?
>
>Personally, I try to avoid cross-overs (they could be a bit dicey),
>although it could be, um, interes^ng to throw the usurper Vladimir
>Ulianov into Russ and see what happens (don't forget his lieutenant
>Iosef).
>
>--
>Mike Phillips, mike@lawlib.wm.edu | DR WHO: The Earth is

>Mythus: hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/ | Out of Time!
>Home page: hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/ | FOX May 14, 7:00pm
>
>

Ah, and don't forget his henchmen Bear-Eyuh of Ge-Pe-Uu, an expert in cas^ng
Memory Drain, Netherblight, and Oppressive Ebon Spells...
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:05:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Deity interacôn (fwd)

Dave Newton asked me to forward this to the list:

---------- Forwarded message ---------Date: Thu, 18 Apr 96 10:16:28 PDT
To: Mike Phillips <mike@LAWLIB.WM.EDU>

Mike,
[please repost to the list]

>This leads me to postulate that Mr. Gygax subscribes to the thought that
>gods rise and fall by the rela^ve importance and strength of their
>followers, not how many ^mes they've pummelled the other gods, and that
>their very existence is linked to faith in them. If this is taken to be
>the case, the gods would act *only* through agents, because ac^ng in any
>other manner would cause serious disrupôns.

You are correct; Gary and I have discussed this, and the basic thought here
is that the more numerous and powerful the followers are, the more powerful
the deity. Remember, also that followers are not necessarily human, either.
A god of snakes has lots of natural followers, they just do not generate
the kind of power a human supplicant does.

Dave
Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more
important than fear. -Ambrose Redmoon

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 15:04:05 +0100


>On Tue, 16 Apr 1996, John R. Troy wrote:
>
>> Um, not really. There are some parallels in development. In MMM #4, Gary
>> has the Batsears hood, which was created by Nikola Tesla, the analouge of
>> our Nikola Tesla, who didn't exist un^l the late 18th Century,
>
> You meant, 19th century, right?
>[Snip]

You know, it just dawned on me that I (we?) might be thinking a bit too two
dimensional on the concepts of ^me and history on Aerth. We have examples
of cas^ngs and enchanted items generated by Earth-corresponding personas
all the way through the early 19th century. Is it too strange to believe
that the year 996 AF on Aerth corresponds to the day to 1996 on Earth??
Hmmm, I can't believe that this didn't dawn on me sooner. It also gives
much more creedence to the idea of cross over antagonists. You s^ll would
probably not want an Adolf Hitler creeping around in the mix, but it could
happen.

Of course, I could be way out of line on this idea. I would speculate that
Rome on both worlds came into power about the same ^me, and could have
fallen at rela^vely the same ^me - just for dierent reasons. The
reason for the cultural immaturity of Aerth has been constantly akributed
to the availablility of magick and prac^ôners, even though prac^ôners
are rare enough that oven ^mes _very_ mundane prac^ces are used. This
likle side note makes the lack of technological advancement on Aerth a bit
dicult to swallow.

Look at me though. I'm deba^ng this thing as though it were reality. Go
gure. Excuse me while I go out to nd a life. :)

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 15:54:03 -0400
In-Reply-To: <v01520d00ad9bf9f432a8@[206.109.96.194]>

On Thu, 18 Apr 1996, Tom wrote:

> >On Tue, 16 Apr 1996, John R. Troy wrote:
> >
> >> Um, not really. There are some parallels in development. In MMM #4, Gary
> >> has the Batsears hood, which was created by Nikola Tesla, the analouge of
> >> our Nikola Tesla, who didn't exist un^l the late 18th Century,
> >
> > You meant, 19th century, right?
> >[Snip]
>
> You know, it just dawned on me that I (we?) might be thinking a bit too two
> dimensional on the concepts of ^me and history on Aerth. We have examples
> of cas^ngs and enchanted items generated by Earth-corresponding personas
> all the way through the early 19th century. Is it too strange to believe
> that the year 996 AF on Aerth corresponds to the day to 1996 on Earth??

Nope. In fact, I've always run it that way (and sped up/slowed down ^me
to keep the game (roughly) in sync with Earth). The current state of the
campaign has it six months or so behind (it's early September (or
equivalent) 995), but I expect to zip through parts of winter ;-)

> Hmmm, I can't believe that this didn't dawn on me sooner. It also gives
> much more creedence to the idea of cross over antagonists. You s^ll would
> probably not want an Adolf Hitler creeping around in the mix, but it could
> happen.

Let's bring Saddam into it ;-)
(Actually, I have been having a marvelous ^me with poli^cal priests,
and religious strife -- the priest of one deity was preaching a 'Fortress
Grandmark' philosophy, heh heh :-) )

> Of course, I could be way out of line on this idea. I would speculate that
> Rome on both worlds came into power about the same ^me, and could have
> fallen at rela^vely the same ^me - just for dierent reasons. The
> reason for the cultural immaturity of Aerth has been constantly akributed
> to the availablility of magick and prac^ôners, even though prac^ôners
> are rare enough that oven ^mes _very_ mundane prac^ces are used. This
> likle side note makes the lack of technological advancement on Aerth a bit
> dicult to swallow.

What lack of technological advancement? Well, okay, gunpowder hasn't
really been developed, no electronics, internal combusôn, etc.
However, according to Ernst Grumbold in 'A Journeyer's Guide to AErth',
Francia has a (limited but working) steam locomo^ve around Paris. The
primary factor slowing the spread down is that rails have to be forged by
hand (for now). Most industrial advancements seem to have been skipped,
but many philosophical advancements haven't. Also, much of the
scien^c *knowledge* seems to be there (well, through the eighteenth
century, at least), but certain renements have been skipped.

Why is that? Well, I'll speculate that many *if not most* of the
inventors end up working with Heka, and they are probably fairly powerful
(Newton, Galileo, Tesla, daVinci, etc). Why waste eort nding ways to
generate electricity (for example) when the means are already there?
Would Edison spend so much ^me messing around with laments and jars
and such if he can simply wave his hands and have much beker light?

Okay, some people might pursue mundane avenues simply because it
intrigued them, but the focus of inven^veness would be *very* dierent,
because the Heka side is 'faster, easier'. Er.

I'm rambling, so I'll shut up now.

> Look at me though. I'm deba^ng this thing as though it were reality. Go
> gure. Excuse me while I go out to nd a life. :)

What? No! No life! Mythus! Mythus is life! AErth is real! There is
no gaming system but DJ, and Gygax&Newton it's author!

Actually, in a dierent vein altogether, may I recommend two *excellent*
resources for Mythus:

(1) Project Gutenberg. It's fantas^c, more than 480 texts in the public
domain have been put into electronic format. While not necessarily
directly applicable, it includes many classics (Frankenstein, Dracula,
Heart of Darkness, all of Shakespeare's works, several Oz books, several
Mars & Tarzan books, etc). Worth a look, and it's free. Start at
hkp://www.etext.org/

(2) GURPS sourcebooks, in par^cular GURPS Places of Mystery (just got
this last night). Some interes^ng stu on Atlan^s and other 'lost
con^nents' like Lemuria, Mu, Hy Breazil, Lyonesse, etc. And dum' ol' me
hadn't recognized the provenance of some of the aforemenôned, but now I
have some sources to follow up on. Can't recommend Places of Mystery
highly enough for an AErth-based game.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 16:44:31 -0700
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.960418154020.282A-100000@skaro.lawlib.wm.edu> from
"Mike Phillips" at Apr 18, 96 03:54:03 pm

> > Look at me though. I'm deba^ng this thing as though it were reality. Go
> > gure. Excuse me while I go out to nd a life. :)
>
> What? No! No life! Mythus! Mythus is life! AErth is real! There is
> no gaming system but DJ, and Gygax&Newton it's author!

With the recent discussions on Mythus-l about the gods of Aerth,
when I read this I started wondering whether Gary or Dave had become
deiês yet. With such single-minded devoôn, they must be geing

loads of Heka. Have any of their priests here been granted cas^ngs?

On the other hand, I may have just inhaled a few too many chemical
fumes today...

--Steven Gullerud gullerud@leland.stanford.edu
Invisible .sig below. Apply heat to your monitor to make it appear.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 19:46:19 +0100

>> > Look at me though. I'm deba^ng this thing as though it were reality. Go
>> > gure. Excuse me while I go out to nd a life. :)
>>
>> What? No! No life! Mythus! Mythus is life! AErth is real! There is
>> no gaming system but DJ, and Gygax&Newton it's author!
>
> With the recent discussions on Mythus-l about the gods of Aerth,
>when I read this I started wondering whether Gary or Dave had become
>deiês yet. With such single-minded devoôn, they must be geing
>loads of Heka. Have any of their priests here been granted cas^ngs?
>
> On the other hand, I may have just inhaled a few too many chemical
>fumes today...
>
>-->Steven Gullerud

Actually, you probably won't nd me giving Gary an enormous amount of
phrase for Aerth. He lev way to many wholes and cracks in the place to be
of immediate us. I would have loved to have seen about ve more pages
dedicated to "legends" of Aerth (besides the Grimm's Fairy Tales bit) and a
few more on Pantheons (namely those with no real source of background like
Mu and Atlantl).

Even with those, there are s^ll cracks to ll. But Gary loves cracks
(except in the game system) and so that's what I've got. Hopefullywith a
bit of plaster and some help from Bob Vil...er, the Mythus List, that is, I
can get the project under way. So far I have six pages of roughshot notes
on the Republic of Venice just babbling on about likle parts of the Aerth
text. These tangents are slowly taking form and will soon be viable
campaign informaôn. When that's done, who knows. Maybe I'll start
pos^ng.

Today I xeroxed about a dozen copies of the regional map in various shapes
and sizes. Tracing paper is wonderful. I guess I'm commiked now.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 21:12:45 -0400

At 07:46 PM 4/18/96 +0100, Tom wrote:
>>> > Look at me though. I'm deba^ng this thing as though it were reality. Go
>>> > gure. Excuse me while I go out to nd a life. :)
>>>
>>> What? No! No life! Mythus! Mythus is life! AErth is real! There is
>>> no gaming system but DJ, and Gygax&Newton it's author!
>>
>> With the recent discussions on Mythus-l about the gods of Aerth,
>>when I read this I started wondering whether Gary or Dave had become
>>deiês yet. With such single-minded devoôn, they must be geing
>>loads of Heka. Have any of their priests here been granted cas^ngs?
>>
>> On the other hand, I may have just inhaled a few too many chemical
>>fumes today...
>>
>>-->>Steven Gullerud
>
>Actually, you probably won't nd me giving Gary an enormous amount of
>phrase for Aerth. He lev way to many wholes and cracks in the place to be
>of immediate us. I would have loved to have seen about ve more pages
>dedicated to "legends" of Aerth (besides the Grimm's Fairy Tales bit) and a
>few more on Pantheons (namely those with no real source of background like
>Mu and Atlantl).

To be quite honest and frank, I strongly suspect that there was a lot /cut
out/ of Epic of AErth due to the size and space requirements GDW had. There
was a mockup page published in the original material released for DD/DJ, and
it had a page lis^ng the ar^cles that would be known as "Deital Basics".
I suspect the lists of Deiês that appeared in MMM were originally to be
placed in Epic as well.

There are a few areas where stu that was supposed to be described (such as
the erra^c use of Heka in Inner AErth) that looks like it was cut.

So, I can't completely blame EGG for this. I wish I knew what WAS cut. I
do know that Lemuria and Atlantl weren't as developed as we'd like. But
then again, AErth is one of the best environments, simply because it has a
historical analog and now without a publisher, is easier to get background
on than many other campaigns out there.

The biggest problem with EGG games is that he usually has /so much/ to
convey, he can't t it all in. And as such, the reader suers--insomuch
as the fact that his work has been cancelled from outside factors. A long
^me ago I awaited the new character classes of Savant and Mys^c, the
revisions aec^ng the gods, etc... to nd that wiped. I awaited the
revelaôns of netherkind as presented in GtR and DJ--Maelevs, Dumalduns,
etc--and that was shut down again due to the seklement. (Took me 6 years
to nd out what his deniôn of Demiurge was).

Maybe someday...

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 22:01:24 -0400

I awaited the
>revelaôns of netherkind as presented in GtR and DJ--Maelevs, Dumalduns,
>etc--and that was shut down again due to the seklement. (Took me 6 years
>to nd out what his deniôn of Demiurge was).

So.......what's a Demiurge?

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 21:53:54 -0400
In-Reply-To: <v01520d00ad9c3c785659@[206.109.96.139]>

On Thu, 18 Apr 1996, Tom wrote:

> dedicated to "legends" of Aerth (besides the Grimm's Fairy Tales bit) and a
> few more on Pantheons (namely those with no real source of background like
> Mu and Atlantl).

I've been reading GURPS Places of Mystery recently (again, I can't
recommend it highly enough -- skim it at your local gaming shop). It
strikes me that Mr. Gygax was probably drawing heavily on the established
lore of Atlan^s in crea^ng Atlantl, all the way back to Plato's
treatment in Timaeus. To quote from the sidebar: "...but Atlan^s ruled
an empire which included not only the island, the siaze of 'Libya and
Asia put together,' but other lands as well. Atlan^s invaded the
Mediterranean, sweeping across North Africa and Italy [sound familiar?].
Athens became the leader of a defensive alliance, including all of Greece
as well as Egypt and other lands, and although most of their allies were
conquered or fell away, the Athenians were victorious, even libera^ng
the conquered territories. However, at the moment of victory, a wave of
earthwuakes and oods swept the world, sinking Atlan^s and wiping out
the Athenian army...In the unnished Criâs, Plato described the
history and society of Atlan^s...the Atlanteans eventually became
corrupt and greedy, leading to war and their downfall."

According to Plato, a metal called 'orichalcum' could be mined only in
Atlan^s, and it was used to to decorate a temple to Poseidon, along with
gold, silver, and ivory. Orichalcum is described as a 'reddish metal,
almost as valuable as gold'. The city itself was concentric (and an
interes^ng map is in PoM).

It might not hurt to track down Ignaûs Loyola Donnelly's "Atlan^s: the
Antediluvian World" either, an 1882 work which treated Atlan^s as fact.
Dunno how good/bad it is, but hey.

pp. 13-14 of Places of Mystery also notes the following:

Avalon is the direct descendant of Cel^c paradise.

Huy Breasil (pron. Hi Brazil) was a supernatural island said to appear
o the west coast of Ireland, and if it were touched by re, it would
remain visible and accesible to mortals.

Lyonesse was the home of Sir Tristram, lying near the Scilly Isles, west
of Cornwall. It supposedly sank when akacked by the forces of Mordred.

The city of Ys (or Ker-Is) lay o Brikany.

Lemuria was postulated as a way to explain the fact that lemurs (a
primate) existed only on two areas: Madagascar and India (recognizing that
there was no theory of con^nental driv at the ^me). Among those
harping on its existence was one Madame Blatavsky, who pictured our
ancestors as 15-foot tall psionic hermaphrodi^c ape-like creatures.

Mu was probably invented around 1896 by Augustus le Plongeon. His book,
Queen Moo and the Egypân Sphinx was (supposedly) based on ancient Mayan
documents. Mu was in the Pacic (much as Lemuria was in the Indian
Ocean). In 1926, Colonel James Churchward published The Lost Con^nent
of Mu.

Those are the likely antecedants for the addiôns to AErth (well aside
from the overachieving of 'twelve wonders', 'seven great lakes', etc ;-) )

For further reading on Atlan^s, the Places of Mystery bibliography cites:

Gould, Stephen Jay: Wonderful Life
Kusche, Lawrence David: The Bermuda Triangle Mystery -- Solved
Luce, J.V.: The End of Atlan^s
Page, D.L.: The Santorini Volcano and the Destrucôn of Minoan Crete

(I might add that Mr. Gygax seems to have lev out the Bimini Road, an
absolutely fascina^ng, possibly man-made, possibly natural 'road'
underwater o of the Bahamas -- then again, he did very likle with
Vargaard and Amazonia.)

That should be enough to get you started :-)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 00:22:56 +0100

>I've been reading GURPS Places of Mystery recently (again, I can't
>recommend it highly enough...

You've already sold me on it, Mike. Too bad there wasn't anymore concrete
info on Ys (at least there wasn't at rst glance).

This makes me wonder if the other histroical GURPS supplements (Aztecs,
Greece, Imperial Rome, etc.) wouldn't be too bad for info on Aerth. Anyone
care to comment?

Finally, can anyone else imagine what a Roman temple would look like in
Venice?? Yikes!

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 00:25:56 +0100

>To be quite honest and frank, I strongly suspect that there was a lot /cut
>out/ of Epic of AErth due to the size and space requirements GDW had. There
>was a mockup page published in the original material released for DD/DJ, and
>it had a page lis^ng the ar^cles that would be known as "Deital Basics".
>I suspect the lists of Deiês that appeared in MMM were originally to be
>placed in Epic as well.

>John R. Troy (JRT)
>johntroy@âc.net

I suspect this as well. But we can always chide Lester Smith for doing
such a bukerngers job of edi^ng the game.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 08:01:08 -0400
In-Reply-To: <v01520d01ad9c7e786a7b@[206.109.96.168]>

On Fri, 19 Apr 1996, Tom wrote:

> This makes me wonder if the other histroical GURPS supplements (Aztecs,
> Greece, Imperial Rome, etc.) wouldn't be too bad for info on Aerth. Anyone
> care to comment?

The only historicals I have (at the moment) are GURPS Greece and Cel^c
Myth. They are useful if one is looking at the *roots* of the culture. But
remember that AErth's Achaea etc. have had two millenia (or more) of
addiônal development, and a snapshot of Greece in any age isn't going to
be par^cularly useful. I did look at Imperial Rome, and while I will buy
it (probably late summer or early fall if I can track it down again), it
has a similar problem. AErth's cultures have had lots of extra ^me to
develop and change, which means that (in general) the historicals will be
more useful for, well, history and something to draw from.

(I was reminded of this when I rst started work on Grandmark et al.,
having lost sight of the many extra centuries :-) )

I might add that the most useful one *might* be GURPS Egypt (forthcoming,
no release date though the Web page says early 1997), since Egypân
culture changed very slowly in many areas, and indicaôns on AErth are
that it con^nued to change slowly.

> Finally, can anyone else imagine what a Roman temple would look like in
> Venice?? Yikes!

Very fancy, especially since the religion has lasted about, what, 1800
years longer? :-)

Hmmmm. Did Michaelangelo do the Ceres-^ne Chapel on AErth? ;-)


=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 09:16:13 -0400

At 10:01 PM 4/18/96 -0400, Chris Dion wrote:
> I awaited the
>>revelaôns of netherkind as presented in GtR and DJ--Maelevs, Dumalduns,
>>etc--and that was shut down again due to the seklement. (Took me 6 years
>>to nd out what his deniôn of Demiurge was).
>
>So.......what's a Demiurge?
>
> Chris

Have you read the Mythus book?
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:12:24 -0400

>At 10:01 PM 4/18/96 -0400, Chris Dion wrote:
>> I awaited the
>>>revelaôns of netherkind as presented in GtR and DJ--Maelevs, Dumalduns,
>>>etc--and that was shut down again due to the seklement. (Took me 6 years
>>>to nd out what his deniôn of Demiurge was).
>>
>>So.......what's a Demiurge?
>>
>> Chris
>
>Have you read the Mythus book?

Which book?
I've read one of the novels and most of the rule books (Mythus, Mythus
Magick and Epic of Aerth), perhaps I've missed this par^cular entry. Where
can I nd the deniôn of a Demiurge? Anyone?

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 08:21:32 -0600

At 09:16 AM 4/19/96 -0400, you wrote:
>At 10:01 PM 4/18/96 -0400, Chris Dion wrote:
>> I awaited the
>>>revelaôns of netherkind as presented in GtR and DJ--Maelevs, Dumalduns,
>>>etc--and that was shut down again due to the seklement. (Took me 6 years
>>>to nd out what his deniôn of Demiurge was).
>>
>>So.......what's a Demiurge?
>>
>> Chris
>
>Have you read the Mythus book?

I assume John's implying that in the 400 page book there's a deniôn of
Demiurge, you're apparently supposed to go look for it.

I don't have the book handy, or I'd just look it up and tell you, but I'd
suggest the glossary of terms in the back (trying to be as helpful as I can
manage.)
___
| |_) | \| ` ' | \ --Hawthorne
__|____/|____|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 16:43:07 +0200

At 10:12 19-04-96 -0400, you wrote:
>>Have you read the Mythus book?
>
>Which book?
>I've read one of the novels and most of the rule books (Mythus, Mythus
>Magick and Epic of Aerth), perhaps I've missed this par^cular entry. Where
>can I nd the deniôn of a Demiurge? Anyone?

>
> Chris
>
>
Mythus, Appendix L: Vocaôn et al. Name Deniôns

"DEMIURGE (page 404): (c) T$R

This appellaôn is used to designate an individual who is both a hemeturge
(q.v.) and a savant (q.v.) and has advanced his or her abiliês beyond the
usual in both areas so as to akain the superhuman (a Power, Quasi-Deity, or
Demigoed). Prior to moving beyond the ken of humankind, such an individual
is called a magus (q.v.). All are accorded great status, albeit few of this
bent are much interested in that."

Now you only have to look up hemeturge (p. 405), savant (p. 407) and magus
(p. 406). I'm to lazy to type those deniôns. ;)

Harold Stringer

_____________________________________________________________________

Work: Private:
1315 KT Almere Tel/Fax +31 - (0)36 53 64 798
The Netherlands
Tel +31 - (0)36 53 43 445
Fax +31 - (0)36 53 47 265


_____________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 11:23:35 -0400

>"DEMIURGE (page 404): (c) T$R
>
>This appellaôn is used to designate an individual who is both a hemeturge

>(q.v.) and a savant (q.v.) and has advanced his or her abiliês beyond the
>usual in both areas so as to akain the superhuman (a Power, Quasi-Deity, or
>Demigoed). Prior to moving beyond the ken of humankind, such an individual
>is called a magus (q.v.). All are accorded great status, albeit few of this
>bent are much interested in that."
>
>Now you only have to look up hemeturge (p. 405), savant (p. 407) and magus
>(p. 406). I'm to lazy to type those deniôns. ;)
>
>
>Harold Stringer

Thank you very much.

I had just recently read a Gord the Rouge book that menôned a Demiurge and
was currious as to the exact meaning.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 11:59:31 -0400

>>Have you read the Mythus book?
>
>I assume John's implying that in the 400 page book there's a deniôn of
>Demiurge, you're apparently supposed to go look for it.
>
I /would/ have told him. The point I was trying to make with that comment
is that with what likle has been released for the game, I'd assume people
would have DEVOURED all the core stu by now, page by page.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 11:26:36 -0400
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960419155931.006f4f84@âc.net>

On Fri, 19 Apr 1996, John R. Troy wrote:

> I /would/ have told him. The point I was trying to make with that comment
> is that with what likle has been released for the game, I'd assume people
> would have DEVOURED all the core stu by now, page by page.

<grin> While I have read just about every sentence, they aren't all at
*my* nger^ps, anyways. On the other hand, my Mythus and Mythus Magick
books *are* beginning to look like I've devoured them in a more literal
sense ;-)

I'll have to admit that I don't get o on reading glossaries, though ;-)

Now, some more for the list as a whole:

To bring this thread back in line (vaguely) with the subject, can someone
with a beker grasp of history than mine (not dicult at all) explain
where the Hiites would t into AErth, and what might have prevented
them from manifes^ng on AErth?

While we're at it, what would be the possibility of somewhat parallel
developments between the two worlds? AErth has the prin^ng press (I
think). Would it be conceivable to have publishing houses devoted to
magickal texts, and would there perhaps be one such newly-arisen house
who got by with inferior texts and lots of mindshare? ("MacroSpells:
What Do You Want To Cast Today") <grin>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 13:05:34 -0400

On Thu, 18 Apr 1996, Mike Phillips wrote:

[snip, all that kewl GURPS:POM stu]
> (I might add that Mr. Gygax seems to have lev out the Bimini Road, an
> absolutely fascina^ng, possibly man-made, possibly natural 'road'
> underwater o of the Bahamas -- then again, he did very likle with
> Vargaard and Amazonia.)
Why would he menôn the Bimini Road? Given the structure of AErth
(roughly equivalent to an oddly shaped spheroid of swiss cheese with some
melted parts in the middle crust), the passageway would not be
signicant or no^cable. On the other hand, if it were a subterranean
trade network connec^ng Vargaard, Amazonia, and the Bahamas, it might
take on some signicance. Of course, so far as it escapes me why anyone
would use an overland route when sea travel is faster and more ecient,
it amazes me that anyone would choose to travel subterranean AErth when
it is that much more dangerous than even an overland route. The
Shallowshadows have nasêr crikers to face than the worst wilderness of
Aerth.

Just some food for thought.

--Ryan Snead
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu

Hmmm.....I wonder how a white/green dweomercraver would do on a
subterranean campaign. Hey! That's not a bad idea.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 12:31:12 -0400
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.91.960419124515.9486B-100000@kingsher.birds.wm.edu>

On Fri, 19 Apr 1996, Snead Ryan W wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Apr 1996, Mike Phillips wrote:
>
> [snip, all that kewl GURPS:POM stu]
> > (I might add that Mr. Gygax seems to have lev out the Bimini Road, an
> > absolutely fascina^ng, possibly man-made, possibly natural 'road'
> > underwater o of the Bahamas -- then again, he did very likle with
> > Vargaard and Amazonia.)
> Why would he menôn the Bimini Road? Given the structure of AErth
> (roughly equivalent to an oddly shaped spheroid of swiss cheese with some
> melted parts in the middle crust), the passageway would not be
> signicant or no^cable.

Given that it *appears* to be a man-made, worked stone road more than
4,000 years old, when ther eis no record of a stone-shaping culture nor
geologic ac^vity around that ^me, ending in an area of shaped marble,
it is s^ll fascina^ng. It's underwater, not under-aerth :-)

It *could* be an Atlantean outpost, though ;-)

> On the other hand, if it were a subterranean
> trade network connec^ng Vargaard, Amazonia, and the Bahamas, it might
> take on some signicance. Of course, so far as it escapes me why anyone
> would use an overland route when sea travel is faster and more ecient,
> it amazes me that anyone would choose to travel subterranean AErth when
> it is that much more dangerous than even an overland route. The
> Shallowshadows have nasêr crikers to face than the worst wilderness of
> Aerth.

But there may well be some Shallowshadow-na^ve trading costers (Albies,
anyone). The na^ves would have less harsh of a ^me.
--
Mike Phillips, mike@lawlib.wm.edu | DR WHO: The Earth is

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 16:14:32 -0400

> To bring this thread back in line (vaguely) with the subject, can someone
> with a beker grasp of history than mine (not dicult at all) explain
> where the Hiites would t into AErth, and what might have prevented
> them from manifes^ng on AErth?

Someone else may know beker, but... :) (that never stops me)

The Hiites lived in Eastern Turkey. Look for the Halys River on a
map. They existed around 0BCE/CE, and they, along with about 300 other
dierent cultural groups, vied for control of most of the "fer^le
crescent" region. They just happened to get lucky and get menôned in
some book that some people nd enlightening... :) I think that the
reason they did not make it into Aerth is that they got spanked (by the
Mikanians, I think, who were then spanked by one of the Mesopotamian
groups). They no longer really exist, although I took a class from a guy
who actually visited their old capital ruins of Hakusha. Since they are
essenâlly a historical averthought, it is likely that they suered
the same fate on Aerth. Call them the Hykytes if you want to make it
just a likle dierent... :)

Essenâlly, they had their moment, and it faded. I am not giving them
enough credit. They did own much of the region included today in eastern
Turkey, northern Iraq and all of Syria, probably for about 100 years...

Hey, I think I *do* remember something... :)

> While we're at it, what would be the possibility of somewhat parallel
> developments between the two worlds? AErth has the prin^ng press (I
> think). Would it be conceivable to have publishing houses devoted to
> magickal texts, and would there perhaps be one such newly-arisen house
> who got by with inferior texts and lots of mindshare? ("MacroSpells:
> What Do You Want To Cast Today") <grin>

MacroSpells would want the en^re world to use their Cas^ngs. They
would make their use incompa^ble with what others wanted to do... :)

Anyway, I don't think it would work. I think that the "powers that be"
(be they Powers with a capital P or just strong governmental types)
wouldn't want knowledge of such things passing along to the masses.
Besides, if any peasant could steal a book on Cas^ngs and learn

something there wouldn't be any more stupid yet rich Despots. It becomes
too dicult to control the peasants when they get "uppity". :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 14:19:39 -0600

On Fri, 19 Apr 1996, Mike Phillips wrote:

> I might add that the most useful one *might* be GURPS Egypt (forthcoming,
> no release date though the Web page says early 1997), since Egypân
> culture changed very slowly in many areas, and indicaôns on AErth are
> that it con^nued to change slowly.

The forthcoming GURPS Medieval Russia supplement will probably be
very useful as well ...

Chris Davies.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 16:57:48 EDT
Subject: The Hiite quesôn
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960419160634.7308A-100000@destrier.acsu.bualo.edu>; from "Jesse" at
Apr 19,
96 4:14 pm

> The Hiites lived in Eastern Turkey. Look for the Halys River on a
> map. They existed around 0BCE/CE, and they, along with about 300 other
> dierent cultural groups, vied for control of most of the "fer^le
> crescent" region. They just happened to get lucky and get menôned in
> some book that some people nd enlightening... :) I think that the
> reason they did not make it into Aerth is that they got spanked (by the
> Mikanians, I think, who were then spanked by one of the Mesopotamian
> groups). They no longer really exist, although I took a class from a guy
> who actually visited their old capital ruins of Hakusha. Since they are
> essenâlly a historical averthought, it is likely that they suered
> the same fate on Aerth. Call them the Hykytes if you want to make it
> just a likle dierent... :)

>
> Essenâlly, they had their moment, and it faded. I am not giving them
> enough credit. They did own much of the region included today in eastern
> Turkey, northern Iraq and all of Syria, probably for about 100 years...

Most of my knowledge of the Hiites comes from my knowledge
of Egypt, but here goes a bit of correcôn on the above.
The Hiite empire was located in Anatolia, an area in
central Turkey. Early on, they competed with the Hurrians, and
eventually defeated them, taking control of northern Syria. By
about 1600 BC, it had conquered all the way to Babylon, but it
didn't hold those lands. The Assyrians nally defeated the
faltering Hiite empire around 1208 BC under Tukul^-Ninurta I.
Why wasn't the Hiite empire included in AErth? I'd guess
because it was too old. It was a signicant force on the Ancient
scene, and quite a power in its ^me, but AErth seems to concentrate
a likle more on the later beliefs of the area, without actually
touching on Islam.

Lucifer >:}

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 16:12:03 -0500

A reply to Ryan Snead... Friday, 19 Apr 1996:

>Why would he menôn the Bimini Road? Given the structure of AErth
>(roughly equivalent to an oddly shaped spheroid of swiss cheese with some
>melted parts in the middle crust), the passageway would not be
>signicant or no^cable. On the other hand, if it were a subterranean
>trade network connec^ng Vargaard, Amazonia, and the Bahamas, it might
>take on some signicance. Of course, so far as it escapes me why anyone
>would use an overland route when sea travel is faster and more ecient,
>it amazes me that anyone would choose to travel subterranean AErth when
>it is that much more dangerous than even an overland route. The
>Shallowshadows have nasêr crikers to face than the worst wilderness of
>Aerth.

Harrrr! Travel 'da way of Land Lubbers is a cowardly and unspor^n' route
Matey! 'Specially for 'dem rare herbs and gold we all likes so much.
...and Don't forget the spirits when yur comin' through.... -Capt. Bly

Those damn hull breaching Nar-Whales are really pissing me o!!! - Capt.
Krelldain of Atlantlin Navy

War Gallions! Those look more like Man-O-Wars to me.... Capt Piere of the
French Revoluônary Navy

Now WHERE was that chart with all the reefs on it? - Unknown and unfound.

So what's a likle rain in the Gulf during August got to do with travel.
-Deceased and drowned

These might be good campaign plots and ploys to lure in an under ground
adventure or two.... and about those nasês, what they don't know...

>Hmmm.....I wonder how a white/green dweomercraver would do on a
>subterranean campaign. Hey! That's not a bad idea.

personnaly I love it! Especially when mixed with a health spellsong steep!

-just a few fun ideas to lighten the weekend.

John=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 19:47:55 +0100

>AErth has the prin^ng press (I
>think). Would it be conceivable to have publishing houses devoted to
>magickal texts, and would there perhaps be one such newly-arisen house
>who got by with inferior texts and lots of mindshare? ("MacroSpells:
>What Do You Want To Cast Today") <grin>

Nope, sorry Mike. Aerth does not have the prin^ng press. One of the
interes^ng side notes in the Journeyer's Guide series was that books,
because of "hand prin^ng and hand binding" cost as much as 200% of what
you can nd them at here. By their gures, and considering that
hardbacks run about $20 - $30 a pop, you can expect "printed" books to run
anywhere from 200 - 3000 BUCs on Aerth.

Now this does not mean that some areas won't have the prin^ng press, but
it certainly isn't commonly accessible, or even usually dependable.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 20:56:46 -0400
In-Reply-To: <v01520d00ad9d8f4c484b@[206.109.96.165]>

> because of "hand prin^ng and hand binding" cost as much as 200% of what
> you can nd them at here. By their gures, and considering that
> hardbacks run about $20 - $30 a pop, you can expect "printed" books to run
> anywhere from 200 - 3000 BUCs on Aerth.

Well, Tom, now I'm confused... If my math skills haven't deteriorated
that much, 200% of $30 is only $60. I don't understand where you got
your 200 - 3000 BUC amount. Did I miss something, or is the cost not
quite as prohibi^ve as you thought? (although, I'd be more inclined to
make them cost what you say, rather than 40 - 60 BUC range. That's s^ll
too cheap... :))

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 20:58:59 -0500

Tom reported on Fri, 19 Apr 1996:

>>AErth has the prin^ng press (I
>>think). Would it be conceivable to have publishing houses devoted to
>>magickal texts, and would there perhaps be one such newly-arisen house
>>who got by with inferior texts and lots of mindshare? ("MacroSpells:
>>What Do You Want To Cast Today") <grin>
>
>Nope, sorry Mike. Aerth does not have the prin^ng press. One of the
>interes^ng side notes in the Journeyer's Guide series was that books,
>because of "hand prin^ng and hand binding" cost as much as 200% of what
>you can nd them at here. By their gures, and considering that
>hardbacks run about $20 - $30 a pop, you can expect "printed" books to run
>anywhere from 200 - 3000 BUCs on Aerth.
>
>Now this does not mean that some areas won't have the prin^ng press, but
>it certainly isn't commonly accessible, or even usually dependable.

I would agree that presses would not be easily accessible, since all parts
would have to be smithed. As for dependability, that may rely heavily on
the quality.

This discussion came up in our group as well. We had 'jusêd' the cost
by expaining that o-set presses did in fact exist, but everything was
done manually or with heka. In DJM (DJ book 1) pg 171, the K/S Prin^ng
explains "the ability to use and understand the workings of equiptment
required to place text and illustraôns on parchment and paper." IMHO
this would include a press. However, unless operated by heka, the ^me
requirements would lengthy for normal prin^ng; but not too unreasonalble
to make papers and pamphlets overly costly.

The next step beyond prin^ng the paper,is making the cover. In the
campaigns I par^cipated, almost all the covers have been leather. This
would mean hand tanned and bound. This would most denitely be costly
since a publisher (oh no! another OP vocaôn!) would need leather working
to make the cover and most likely alchemy and/or chemistry to nd a glue,
paste, or binding agent.

Also, in my interpretaôn, most cas^ngs should be limited. Remembering
that only a few people are capable of using heka, cas^ngs should not be as
common as a newpaper or magazine. (Again concider the genre, if most
people can't read...) In addiôn, since heka is involved in the
invocaôn, it may make sence that heka be invoved in the development and
prin^ng of cas^ngs. This, of course, is a house rule, but special inks
and suitable ^me should be required in the copying of spells to make sure
of best quality and that there are no variaôn or errors (which would be
*BAD*). <8o

Lastly, my HPs would live in fear at the use of prin^ng presses to make
scores of scrolls and volumes of books detailing eyebites. I have enough
curses, broken bones, and problems the way it is. My HP feels 'safer' not
having *that* to deal with in addiôn to being heroic.

In prac^ce, this has worked out rather well. Cas^ngs are available in
books, but at a high cost (I just recently aquired an unsurpassed Green
Dweomercraev book with all the rst and second level cas^ngs for 50,000
bucs and thought it to be a steal, thanks JT). Even very usefull books to
study from should be costly depending on how good they are. Again an HP
spent 20,000 bucs aquiring books to study from to advance into a pioneer
level in eiqueke, since he is exploring in an *uncivilized* naôn (from
his perspec^ve.) In other words, it is a good mo^vator and controlling
mechanism to guide a campaign. Prin^ng them would be a neat idea, but I
feel it opens up more problems than it xes.

Just another perspec^ve...

Also as a side note: Similar to how gunpowder does not work in the Mythus
genre, we have also disallowed most polymers. this could make prin^ng
cummersome.

AJ- Fr. Tom, is that *red* end over there? Fr. Tom?! Tom? Where'd he
go?...Yikes!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 23:26:20 -0600

On Fri, 19 Apr 1996, Mike Phillips wrote:
>
> I might add that the most useful one *might* be GURPS Egypt (forthcoming,
> no release date though the Web page says early 1997), since Egypân
> culture changed very slowly in many areas, and indicaôns on AErth are
> that it con^nued to change slowly.
>
Another one that might be useful (and IS out) is GURPS Aztecs ...
you'd have to keep the Atlantlan inuences in mind, but other than that
..

Chris Davies.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 02:01:47 +0100

>> because of "hand prin^ng and hand binding" cost as much as 200% of what
>> you can nd them at here. By their gures, and considering that
>> hardbacks run about $20 - $30 a pop, you can expect "printed" books to run
>> anywhere from 200 - 3000 BUCs on Aerth.
>
>Well, Tom, now I'm confused... If my math skills haven't deteriorated
>that much, 200% of $30 is only $60. I don't understand where you got
>your 200 - 3000 BUC amount. Did I miss something, or is the cost not
>quite as prohibi^ve as you thought? (although, I'd be more inclined to
>make them cost what you say, rather than 40 - 60 BUC range. That's s^ll
>too cheap... :))
>
>Jesse
>
>--Me, simply: Music:
>Angela Bualo: TV: Games: Cathedral
>ANGELa Bills: Always #1! Reboot Mythus Cel^c Frost
>ANGEL Sabres: Love hurts! Outer Limits ARIA Solitude Aeturnus

Opps. Chalk it up to bad math skills. 200% of $30 is $60. My bad. :P

Sheepish,
Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 13:13:17 -0600
Subject: Demiurgery

It's good to see the list buzzing! Heres my 2 iron drabs worth:

1. The actual deniôn of a Demiurge is that of a gnos^c
archetype; a 'god' who creates and rules the material world and
interposes between humanity and the 'true diety'. The Demiurge is
usually the miscarried or aborted son of Sophia (wisdom), a heavenly
trickster goddess. He makes the world star^ng with either with 'water'
or from liker and fragmented dreams fallen from the true God up high. He
also creates humanity. The Demiurge is usually said to be proud or mad or
ignorant but is not unequivocally evil. He stands between humanity and
the creator. So much for the real deniôn. We are intrested in the
game's deniôn:
>"DEMIURGE (page 404): (c) T$R
>
>This appellaôn is used to designate an individual who is both a hemeturge
>(q.v.) and a savant (q.v.) and has advanced his or her abiliês beyond the
>usual in both areas so as to akain the superhuman (a Power, Quasi-Deity, or
>Demigod). Prior to moving beyond the ken of humankind, such an individual
>is called a magus (q.v.). All are accorded great status, albeit few of this
>bent are much interested in that."
>
>Now you only have to look up hemeturge (p. 405), savant (p. 407) and magus
>(p. 406). I'm to lazy to type those deniôns.

The other deniôns:
Adept: "Adepts are individuals with siome considerable abiliês in
Alchemy, Astrology, and Conjuraôn, who have proven their knowledge and
skill through demonstrated producôn."

Hemeturge: "An Adept (q.v.) (alchemy, astrology, and conjuraôn) with
abiliês of divinaôn, Metaphysics, and Pantheology as well.... "

Magus: "A demiurge (q.v.) who has not yet akained superhuman power (and
is s^ll a mortal) is known as a Magus. Because of their powers and
abiliês, such individuals are of great status...."

Savant: "The term is used to denote an individual who is a Mage (full
prac^ôner), but has knowledge (but not full heka channelling capacity)
in priestcrav-religion, and abiliês in Demonology, Mys^cism, and
occul^sm as well as a high intellect and broad learning elsewhere."

There is a hint of a level advancment here. One could probably draw out a
two track advancment system, with the HP having to meet cerân quests
and Steep levels to go upward.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 13:13:25 -0600

>Dave Newton asked me to forward this to the list:
>
>>This leads me to postulate that Mr. Gygax subscribes to the thought that
>>gods rise and fall by the rela^ve importance and strength of their
>>followers, not how many ^mes they've pummelled the other gods, and that
>>their very existence is linked to faith in them. If this is taken to be
>>the case, the gods would act *only* through agents, because ac^ng in any
>>other manner would cause serious disrupôns.
>
>You are correct; Gary and I have discussed this, and the basic thought here
>is that the more numerous and powerful the followers are, the more powerful
>the deity. Remember, also that followers are not necessarily human, either.
>A god of snakes has lots of natural followers, they just do not generate
>the kind of power a human supplicant does.
>

In my games, The Eikons (my term for deiês) gain power from the 'inner
triad of being', a yin/yang type egg at the center of all things. They do
not, however have direct access to it. THey have to go through human
beings.
The triad is the remenent body-mind-soul of the creator. It exists at
the center of all things, and is connected through the Aether to the
Miragerealms, where we live. All senênts in the Mirages are connected
to the inner triad through emoôn.
Senênts in the Mirage are also connected to the realms of the
Eikons through the Astra; and we can reach them through thought.
Now, as Eikons draw power from the inner triad and cannot access
that directly, they must use senênts to get it. Worshippers draw the
energy from the triad through the Aether. Eikons can then take that
energy from them through the Astra and grow in strength.
In this scheme, the more worshippers you have, the more power you
draw. The less you have, the less you draw. You can gain power by
"devouring" other beings, but it's a one ^me boost.

Whaka ya think sirs?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 18:05:14 -0400

Subject: Re: Demiurgery

At 01:13 PM 4/20/96 -0600, Eric Medalis wrote:
>It's good to see the list buzzing! Heres my 2 iron drabs worth:
>
> 1. The actual deniôn of a Demiurge is that of a gnos^c
>archetype; a 'god' who creates and rules the material world and
>interposes between humanity and the 'true diety'. The Demiurge is
>usually the miscarried or aborted son of Sophia (wisdom), a heavenly
>trickster goddess. He makes the world star^ng with either with 'water'
>or from liker and fragmented dreams fallen from the true God up high. He
>also creates humanity. The Demiurge is usually said to be proud or mad or
>ignorant but is not unequivocally evil. He stands between humanity and
>the creator.

But that's not the only deniôn...

From Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dicônary

1 (a) A Platonic Subordinate diety who fashions the world in the light of
eternal ideas.

1 (b) Same as above

2. One that is an autonomous crea^ve force or decisive power

I assume EGG based his Wizard-ranking term on deniôn #2.

>There is a hint of a level advancment here. One could probably draw out a
>two track advancment system, with the HP having to meet cerân quests
>and Steep levels to go upward.

Perhaps. I don't see these so much as actual, tangible "levels" rather just
an honoric. One can denately t mul^ple roles.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 18:05:20 -0400

In regards to the deity/power stu...

Mythus was apparently going to Implement an aborted AD&D system called Power
Points...also used in D&D Immortals. (Probably in a dierent form and
format, but similar nevertheless).

One of Gary's last essays regarding deiês in Dragon invovled their
dependancy on mortals. He used the scheme that 1 worshiper=1 PP, and
menôned that clerics would provide 1pp/level to a deity--thus jus^fying
their wrath when a high preist is destroyed.

Gord the Rouge also reveals this need. Dance with Demons has a nice few
paragraphs explaining the concepts--basically the mudane sphere is a "holy
grail" for the gods, a force many want.

I would also combine these with the fact that gods and deiês do get
energies and powers from other sources--but that's something that was not
developed. Based on that likle one-pager found in the ads for "Dan-Dim" by
GDW, that they may in reality be dierent types of beings--but I guess all
those interpretaôns are uncataloged.

I would assume deiês do have powers beyond mortal ken and could exist
without them--but at the very least such creatures would be cut o from the
material planes completely.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 21:49:14 -0400

>I /would/ have told him. The point I was trying to make with that >comment
>is that with what likle has been released for the game, I'd assume people
>would have DEVOURED all the core stu by now, page by page.

I have. I don't even use averaged armor, I use the full (piecemeal) system.
In fact, I keep a copy of Mythus Magickx in the smallest room of my house to
randomly peruse during those quiet moments. I get great ideas, some^mes, by
just siing and thinking.

Don
Demiurge in Progress
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 03:22:28 +0100
Subject: Another Aerth issue...

With all the talk about crossovers, ^me, and the state of the mythos, I
thought I might inject a new topic for discussion. Its preky much been
decided that Aerth diers from our Earth in that many cultures seemingly
"stood s^ll." At the same ^me, these cultures had an extraordinarily
long ^me to develop.

I'm curious about medicine. The Mythus rules present us with three types
of medicines (applicable to humans, that is): standard rst aid, oriental
medicine (the ying and the yang) and magickal remedies (alchemy, herbalism,
healing magicks, etc.). S^ll, magickal cures would not always be
available, and certainly there are few western prac^ôners of the
oriental arts of healing (if any could subscribe to such a thing).
Wouldn't it be safe to assume that western medicine has evolved far enough
to allow it a K/S of its own? If so, would you think that western medicine
on Aerth would consist of such age-honored prac^ces as bleeding? Would it
be more like mid-late 1800's medicine, with quack cures and surgeons?

Or am I just overthinking the issue? With herbal and magickal cures, one
would hardly need to develop penecilian. However, primi^ve surgery
doesn't sound too far fetched.

BTW, why is the sky blue.... ;)

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 06:34:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Another Aerth issue...

>S^ll, magickal cures would not always be
>available, and certainly there are few western prac^ôners of the
>oriental arts of healing (if any could subscribe to such a thing).

Wrong. It's been documented in certain paragraphs in both the Mythus book
and other works (Journeys, MMM) that the oriental-style of medicine has been
widely adapted by pracôners on AErth, and that has been adapted. On
AErth, anybody with healing arts would know herbalism (even if weak in the
magickal element of it), acupuncture, etc. There's a lot more
cross-polinaôn of invenôns on AErth. Marital Arts-styles are more
widely known in the west, Yoga and Meditaôn techniques are used by
heka-pracôners, and vegatables from Vargaard have been adapted and grown
in AEropa, etc.

Health care is a lot beker on AErth than on Medeval Earth. With heka,
alchemy, aura reading, and beker knowledge, the people of Aerth know that
bleeding and leeches are /bad/ things to do. Heck, alchemy allows for such
elements as bodily alteraôn and repair that would be more eect than 20th
century Earth: a simple cas^ng or replacement for tooth decay, cosme^c
alteraôn (skin and hair color, facial features), even limb and organ
regeneraôn.

This doesn't mean everybody has access, of course. Alchemists and
Apocatharies fees are aordable to the well-to-do freeman/gentry classes
(and above), but certain techinques are costly even for them--puing them
towards the aristorcracy. Herbalism, however, is more likely to be used and
known to even peasants. Wisepeople, Clergy, and Healers would serve the
lower-classes. Depending on the structure and culture of the state, some
kingdoms may have state-alchemists/apocatharys who assist in aiding the
peasant classes for severe cases. There are likely to be more advanced
forms of preven^ve medicine, such as a herbalis^c paste to prevent tooth
decay or something to keep the u away during that season.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 07:59:39 -0700
Subject: how many books are there?

Hey my name is Peter i'm from Argen^na in south america, and i'm here
living for 2 years. I started buyng dangerous journeys books and i want to
know how many are there, and what are the ^tle aver the principal book,
Mythus magick, Epic of areth, the monster one, and the number "4".:)bye
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 11:13:39 GMT
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960421103411.006480@âc.net>

>..................................... Marital Arts-styles are more
> widely known in the west........??

They must censor these books more than I thought here in the UK. ;)

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

Mark Goode

Leicester
England
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 16:55:30 -0700
Subject: Yet another issue...

I've got another topic I'd like to get some opinions on.

In the process of going through the cas^ngs in Mythus magic, I came
across Apports Cantrip (Mys^cism, Grade I). I'll give some examples,
but this cas^ng seems a bit powerful for Grade I, and I'd appreciate
any ideas on how to make it more reasonable.

To summarize, Apports teleports objects (even plants or animals at
higher DRs) to the caster, as long as the object is within 1
mile/STEEP. Once it arrives, it can also be made to y around or
otherwise move according to the caster's desire.

Specic examples in the descripôn include using apports to gain
a key for a certain lock, coins, blood, and so on.

Though I don't normally like to assign cas^ng Grades for game balance,
the possible applicaôns for Apports are awesome. It is the ul^mate
cas^ng for thev, as the caster can be miles away when it is actually
taken. With a bit of joss, Apports could be used to free a fellow HP
who has been captured or imprisoned with no risk. With the mo^ve power,
one could Apport large granite blocks and have them crash into your foes.
Or, one could simply apport large stone blocks from an enemy castle wall
and cause it to collapse.

I could go on, but you get the idea. Any comments? I'm open for any
suggesôns (even ones saying this is reasonable and balanced!).

Steven

p.s. On a similar vein, has anyone read through the Grade IV Mys^cism
cas^ng Telepathy Cantrip lately?
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 19:59:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Yet another issue...

> Though I don't normally like to assign cas^ng Grades for game balance,
>the possible applicaôns for Apports are awesome. It is the ul^mate
>cas^ng for thev, as the caster can be miles away when it is actually
>taken. With a bit of joss, Apports could be used to free a fellow HP

>who has been captured or imprisoned with no risk. With the mo^ve power,
>one could Apport large granite blocks and have them crash into your foes.
>Or, one could simply apport large stone blocks from an enemy castle wall
>and cause it to collapse.

I don't believe the user has any control over specic apportaôn--rather,
just the ability to get a generic substance from another realm. You could
rule that this substance comes from an adjacent parallel sphere and thus
wouldn't aect "elsewhere" on the same plane.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 18:20:45 -0600

At 07:59 PM 4/21/96 -0400, you wrote:

>> Though I don't normally like to assign cas^ng Grades for game balance,
>>the possible applicaôns for Apports are awesome. It is the ul^mate
>>cas^ng for thev, as the caster can be miles away when it is actually
>>taken. With a bit of joss, Apports could be used to free a fellow HP
>>who has been captured or imprisoned with no risk. With the mo^ve power,
>>one could Apport large granite blocks and have them crash into your foes.
>>Or, one could simply apport large stone blocks from an enemy castle wall
>>and cause it to collapse.
>
>I don't believe the user has any control over specic apportaôn--rather,
>just the ability to get a generic substance from another realm. You could
>rule that this substance comes from an adjacent parallel sphere and thus
>wouldn't aect "elsewhere" on the same plane.

The most powerful apport I had to deal with was a back-handed
apport/money-maker... there is a spell (don't ask which) that makes a hole,
that's size is proporônal to the skill of the caster -- sorta like a
portable hole. When it wears o... it teleports the objects contained
therein to a random locaôn on the planet... the other 10 percent of the
^me, it just destroys the contents.

Ultavarios, designer of Ultavarios Stones of Bathing comfort, cast this to
make a 400 v deep hole 1 foot across, and made a toilet out of it... He was
researching how to get it to teleport the contents to a specic locaôn,
so he could work out a deal with Crazy Hakeem's House of Fer^lizer, but
even without that, he s^ll made a bundle o cas^ng that monthly for
Nobles and rich merchants around town who wanted indoor toilets. :)

The man was the Patron Saint of Household Magic U^liês. :)

__
/\ \
\ \ \____ __ __ _ __
\ \ '__`\ /'__`\ /'__`\ /\`'__\
\ \ \_\ \/\ __//\ \_\.\_\ \ \/
\ \_,__/\ \____\ \__/.\_\\ \_\
\/___/ \/____/\/__/\/_/ \/_/ @dimensional.com
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 23:03:42 -0400


>
>Or am I just overthinking the issue? With herbal and magickal cures, one
>would hardly need to develop penecilian. However, primi^ve surgery
>doesn't sound too far fetched.
>
>BTW, why is the sky blue.... ;)

One could argue that "western medicine" (whatever is meant by that term) is
just rst aid combined with herbal remedies. Certainly that is what it was
from the Greeks through to the s^rrings of raônalizaôn in medicine in
the 18th-century. I don't think there is a need for a new K/S. Merely
expand your horizons of what "First Aid" means.

Tim Francis

"Yours Un^l Charcoal Sprouts" -- Jackie Fisher
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 00:13:48 +0100
Subject: Re: how many books are there?

>Hey my name is Peter i'm from Argen^na in south america, and i'm here
>living for 2 years. I started buyng dangerous journeys books and i want to
>know how many are there, and what are the ^tle aver the principal book,
>Mythus magick, Epic of areth, the monster one, and the number "4".:)bye

You're only short one Mythus Prime (book 0). Of course, unless you're a
collector, you can easily do without this one.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 02:06:24 -0400


>>Hey my name is Peter i'm from Argen^na in south america, and i'm here
>>living for 2 years. I started buyng dangerous journeys books and i want to
>>know how many are there, and what are the ^tle aver the principal book,
>>Mythus magick, Epic of areth, the monster one, and the number "4".:)bye
>
>
>You're only short one Mythus Prime (book 0). Of course, unless you're a
>collector, you can easily do without this one.
>
>Tom
>
>

Don't forget that GM's Screen

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 09:41:40 +0200

At 11:59 19-04-96 -0400, you wrote:
>>>Have you read the Mythus book?
>>
>>I assume John's implying that in the 400 page book there's a deniôn of
>>Demiurge, you're apparently supposed to go look for it.
>>
>I /would/ have told him. The point I was trying to make with that comment
>is that with what likle has been released for the game, I'd assume people
>would have DEVOURED all the core stu by now, page by page.

Please don't DEVOUR the books.

In less than 24 hours, they'll turn into something unreadable, brown and
mushy. Sacrilege!

;-)

(Sorry John, couldn't resist)

Harold
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 19:19:53 -0700

At 02:06 AM 4/22/96 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 96-04-22 01:13:52 EDT, you write:
>
>>>
>>
>>You're only short one Mythus Prime (book 0). Of course, unless you're a
>>collector, you can easily do without this one.
>>
>>Tom
>>
>>Don't forget that GM's Screen
>
>Chris
>
>The books I have are:the myhtus role-playng game, Mythus Magick, and Epic
of aerth. i'vde like to know if Necropolis and Besâry are worse to spend
20 bukcs on. i think i'll buy the mythus besâry because thy give me
monsters and all that but i don't know what Necropolis is about.:)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 19:19:56 -0700

At 02:06 AM 4/22/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>>Hey my name is Peter i'm from Argen^na in south america, and i'm here
>>>living for 2 years. I started buyng dangerous journeys books and i want to
>>>know how many are there, and what are the ^tle aver the principal book,
>>>Mythus magick, Epic of areth, the monster one, and the number "4".:)bye
>>
>>
>>You're only short one Mythus Prime (book 0). Of course, unless you're a
>>collector, you can easily do without this one.
>>
>>Tom
>>
>>
>
>Don't forget that GM's Screen
>
>Chris
>
>I only have the myhtus role-playng game rules, Mythus Magick, Epic of
Aerth,and the game masters screen. Is it worth it to spend $20 on
Necropolis, and $20 on Mythus besâry.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 00:16:37 -0400
In-Reply-To: <199604212355.QAA09467@elaine17.Stanford.EDU>

Steve
Apports, as wriken, is preky powerful, eh? I'd have to limit it, or
make it a sort of "increasing ability" Cas^ng. For instance:

At lower STEEPS (like, up to 30), you must have touched the object you
want to apport.

Mo^ve power doesn't develop un^l at least 60 STEEP (or get another
Cas^ng!)

And, the weight limit would be 1 ounce per STEEP.

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 00:43:21 -0400
In-Reply-To: <199604230219.TAA21706@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com>

Necropolis:

A cool, if someone single-minded, trip through ancient Egypt (uh...sorry,
Aegypt). It is a fun adventure, and has a lot of sta^s^cs for undead
and demonic creatures in the back. A good reference, if nothing else.

Besides, you need to fulll the collecôn! :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 02:39:58 +0100

>>The books I have are:the myhtus role-playng game, Mythus Magick, and Epic
>of aerth. i'vde like to know if Necropolis and Besâry are worse to spend
>20 bukcs on. i think i'll buy the mythus besâry because thy give me
>monsters and all that but i don't know what Necropolis is about.:)

The besâry is _denately_ worth the money. Necropolis is a catch 22
item. The adventure isn't something you wish on your worst enemies. To
put it in terms, imagine the old giants-drow AD&D modules crossed with Tomb
of Horrors and you have Necropolis. However, there are a number of things
that Necropolis is good for:
1) It gives you examples of how to set up a large number of situaôns in
DJ terms (traps, travel, etc.) These are nothing you can't come up with on
your own, but some^mes it helps to have working model.
2) The monsters at the end are worth the price of the book in themselves.
Demons, serpents, undead, and all assorted weird things can be found there.
Denately good examples to work from and cruel beasts to through against
players who've made you mad. ;)
3) The source material on Aegypt is skimpy, but is more detailed than the
Aerth entry by far. If you're running a campaign that involves Aegypt then
this can be a great resource.
4) It does give you a _very_ tough adventure to throw at those players who
think they've mastered the world. My suggesôn: give them prerolled HPs
or let them come up with new HPs for it. Necropolis can be a very humbling
experience.
5) Its out of print and likely to be a collectors item eventually.
6) It completes the red triangle.

In the end, its really up to you. S^ll, It is not a bad investment if you
like the game. If nothing else, the mnosters make it worth the money.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 09:46:40 -0500
From: Dan Williamson IDM <dtw@IDM.COM>
Subject: The Hiite quesôn

The Prince of Darkness:
> Most of my knowledge of the Hiites comes from my knowledge
>of Egypt, but here goes a bit of correcôn on the above.
> The Hiite empire was located in Anatolia, an area in
>central Turkey. Early on, they competed with the Hurrians, and
>eventually defeated them, taking control of northern Syria. By
>about 1600 BC, it had conquered all the way to Babylon, but it
>didn't hold those lands. The Assyrians nally defeated the
>faltering Hiite empire around 1208 BC under Tukul^-Ninurta I.

Dingirmes Eshahar Shanhir! (Hiite for: "The Gods Thirst for Blood.")
I usd to know another phrase as well, but it was less interes^ng and
harder to remember.

What Lucifer said preky much agrees with what I've heard and learned in
the past. I think the invasion by the "Sea Peoples" on the southern coast
of the Hiite Empire seriously destabilized the Empire which allowed the
Assyrians to easily defeat the Hiites. If you want more informaôn I
can look through my notes and send some religious informaôn. But as
everyone here also agrees they should be considered a dead naôn in
Aerth it might not be all that useful.

Dan.
"They say that heaven is like TV. A perfect likle world that doesn't
really need you." Laurie Anderson 'Strange Angels'
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 10:58:19 -0400
Subject: Re: The Hiite quesôn
In-Reply-To: <m0uBjR9-000AFUC@Uucp1.mcs.net>

Dan said (and copied):
> The Prince of Darkness:
> > Most of my knowledge of the Hiites comes from my knowledge
> >of Egypt, but here goes a bit of correcôn on the above.
> > The Hiite empire was located in Anatolia, an area in
> >central Turkey. Early on, they competed with the Hurrians, and
> >eventually defeated them, taking control of northern Syria. By
> >about 1600 BC, it had conquered all the way to Babylon, but it
> >didn't hold those lands. The Assyrians nally defeated the
> >faltering Hiite empire around 1208 BC under Tukul^-Ninurta I.
>
> Dingirmes Eshahar Shanhir! (Hiite for: "The Gods Thirst for Blood.")
> I usd to know another phrase as well, but it was less interes^ng and
> harder to remember.
>
> What Lucifer said preky much agrees with what I've heard and learned in
> the past. I think the invasion by the "Sea Peoples" on the southern coast
> of the Hiite Empire seriously destabilized the Empire which allowed the
> Assyrians to easily defeat the Hiites. If you want more informaôn I
> can look through my notes and send some religious informaôn. But as
> everyone here also agrees they should be considered a dead naôn in
> Aerth it might not be all that useful.

Well, I had the general idea... :)

ANd by the way, I disagree that they are useless. Maybe for a day-today basis, but I think it would be a great place to get an undead villain
from long ago...

So, Hiite men, who were the heroes of Hiite-land? :) We need a name
or two to toss in there...

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 10:19:24 -0700
Subject: JM Screen

Wesley,

Did you get your JM screen yet?

-zoltan
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 18:15:23 -0400
Subject: Re: JM Screen


>Wesley,
>
>Did you get your JM screen yet?

Yeah. :)
I got confused with JM instead of GM. I have had the JM screen, thought the
people on this list were talking about a dierent screen, which is why I
originally said I didn't have it. Hope you're having fun gaming! I just
recently met with a gamer in my area, and we got started. Hope to get more
players.

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 18:33:52 -0500
From: Charlie Carlin <magna@NFINITY.COM>
Subject: Besâry
In-Reply-To: <199604230219.TAA21711@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com>

I need help loca^ng a copy of the Mythus Besâry. Anyone know where i
can nd it?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 03:54:14 -0400

>In the process of going through the cas^ngs in Mythus magic, I came
>across Apports Cantrip (Mys^cism, Grade I). I'll give some examples,
>but this cas^ng seems a bit powerful for Grade I, and I'd appreciate
>any ideas on how to make it more reasonable.

Actually, it's Mediumship Grade I, but hey--we're all friends here, aren't
we?

First, note that the descripôn (pp. 228-229 of Mythus Magickx) twice
species that the caster can only apport *small* items. I take small to
mean "no larger than a human head at best," though obviously the JM can set
his/her own limits. (Of course, this assumes a human head that wasn't being
used at the moment...) This rules out using Apports to free a cap^ve
friend, topple giant stone blocks, and so forth.

Second, because the DR is modied by familiarity, it would be dicult for
you to steal something via Apports unless you were already familiar with it,
especially something valuable like a gem that you had only heard about. On
the other hand, Apports is great for regaining small stolen items if one is
aware of the thev before the thief can get out of range. It makes the gypsy
medium righully popular as a consultant for those who have suered an

unwarranted (or perhaps even a warranted) thev and will pay to regain their
property.

Third, if any of this s^ll seems too liberal, make it a condiôn that
Heka-bearing objects can never be apported, and neither can objects protected
by Heka, e. g. in a Pentacle or covered by Alchindus' sigil. The raônale
behind this is that weak spirits are doing the appor^ng (an unwriken
assumpôn behind nearly all of Mediumship) and they are barred from entering
Pentacles, etc.

None of my players has yet seen t to play a Medium, though I am sure it is
only a maker of ^me. When they do I am sure other issues will be raised,
such as "How long can a medium make an apported object zoom around within the
proscribed radius? How fast can it go?" Determining such makers is the fun
part of being a JM. ;-)

DOn
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 14:15:47 -0400
Subject: Apports

In the case of a Medium, bear in mind that the intent is to emulate the
seance (sp?) seing. Appor^ng small objects into view, having them oat
around, etc.

It's great for obtaining minor items lev at home, etc. You might want to
add a Heka surcharge of x amount to apport a Heka bearing object. For
instance, a mage has two wands of force dart, takes one adventuring and
leaves one at home. During the adventure he/she loses the wand, so he
apports the "spare" from home to nish the adventure.

If the wand or other item was held, gripped, clamped in place, or even pinned
under a large stack of books, I probably would either have the apport fail,
or in the case of pinning perhaps draw addiônal Heka to "free" the item.

But I agree, keep the objects small. Make sure they can be individually
idenêd, etc.

If an HP wanted to use it to steal gems from a gem dealer, the answer is no,
unless the apporter had handled the gem and could iden^fy it as an
individual stone. Any sort of magical defenses on a shop could also prevent
this. If every swinging Medium could clean out a gemsmith or trader with a
rst grade cas^ng, you'd beker believe the merchants would do something
about it.

Later.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 16:49:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Apports

Curious:

What is Apports Cas^ng Type? (Spell? Cantrip?) What I've done is make
certain K/S Areas and Cas^ngs impossible to Ready. What I would do is
say Apports is one of these which cannot be Readied, and make sure it is
at least a Spell. That way, there's no way it could be used in combat,
and "forces" the "seance" seing that was just menôned a minute ago...

It's a fun Cas^ng, anyway... :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 06:55:48 -0400
Subject: Nature Akunement

Not too long ago, someone on the list asked what Nature Akunement is good
for. I had never looked carefully at the descripôn un^l tonight, when I
no^ced one very interes^ng use for it. On page 193 it says those with this
K/S area "are able to blend with their surroundings (hide or conceal their
presence) at a DR of "Easy," with adjustments for actual terrain and
vegetaôn..." and so on. Obviously, with as likle as 33 STEEP an HP would
have a base 99% chance of not being spoked in natural surroundings. This
seems to me to be a good reason by itself to take the area, unless one's JM
always runs only indoor/underground campaigns. If I were JMing a Heroic
Persona, I would even let them use it in Subterranean AErth or the world of
Phaeree if the had "Exo^c Places" as one of their Sub-Areas.

Of course, you could also use it to iden^fy pure water, predict weather,
detect the health of plant life, etc. Let the players use their imaginaôns
and adjudicate the results accordingly.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 14:46:08 +0300

In-Reply-To: <199604201807.NAA02657@thymaster.interaccess.com>

On Sat, 20 Apr 1996, Eric Medalis wrote:

> In my games, The Eikons (my term for deiês) gain power from the 'inner
> triad of being', a yin/yang type egg at the center of all things. They do
> not, however have direct access to it. THey have to go through human
> beings.
> Senênts in the Mirage are also connected to the realms of the
> Eikons through the Astra; and we can reach them through thought.
> Now, as Eikons draw power from the inner triad and cannot access
> that directly, they must use senênts to get it. Worshippers draw the
> energy from the triad through the Aether. Eikons can then take that
> energy from them through the Astra and grow in strength.
> In this scheme, the more worshippers you have, the more power you
> draw. The less you have, the less you draw. You can gain power by
> "devouring" other beings, but it's a one ^me boost.
>
> Whaka ya think sirs?
>
Sorry about this quite outdated reply. This idea is great, but
I think it should be expanded to all beeings below you: The gods may gain
power from lesser gods, demons etc. in addiôn to mundane beeings. (Okay
this may be included in mul^plying role of Astra...) I think mundane
beings had to include also other senênt beings in other worlds, if they
worship the god.
I also think social system is expanded to greater beeings also;
Lesser beeing are trying to acquire more power for ascension to greater
status. The lesser beings are great for this, 'cause they're not aware of
this possibility and worships greater beings, thus gives them more power,
in exchange to something. This might also be true in case of greater
beings(was it supernatural in Mythus?), making alliances of gods more
reasonable; If you have allies, you've got more power usable to protect
yourself...

Yours Kautsu.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 15:12:25 +0300
In-Reply-To: <199604212355.QAA09467@elaine17.Stanford.EDU>

On Sun, 21 Apr 1996, Steven Gullerud wrote:

I think soluôn to be the other prac^ôners crea^ng amulets
and other sort of wards. This makes it a lot more dicult to apport
items protected by Hekau. (I thought there was noôn in Mythus Magick

book saying there's a lot of dierent kind of magical amulets to protect
people unable to use Heka.
Other subject is noise of magick: If you use some spell, most of
heka-users are able to detect it. And the way you channel the power
creates some kind of magical ngerprint(This is taken from one book of
Gary Gygax, in which Sepne was unable to use his powers due secrecy
needed). And as it's said, hekausers are rare, making such thev a lot
more dangerous than normal one; If someone detects the use of heka,
there's a lot people not needed to suspect...

DON'T TRUST ANYONE. COMPUTER IS YOUR FRIEND.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 17:12:19 +0200
From: sv95 <sv95@MAIL.DATANET.HU>

I can't go through the closed door in the 1st level of
Khull-Khuum's Tower. I have a scroll with lot of X-s &
0-s. I think I have to use it with the hidden keypad, but
I don't undertand the system. Please help me!

BeBe
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 11:49:43 -0700
Subject: Re: Khull-Khuum
In-Reply-To: <9604251512.AA23396@mail.datanet.hu> from "sv95" at Apr 25,
96 05:12:19 pm

> I can't go through the closed door in the 1st level of
> Khull-Khuum's Tower. I have a scroll with lot of X-s &
> 0-s. I think I have to use it with the hidden keypad, but
> I don't undertand the system. Please help me!
>
> BeBe

Nothing could be easier. Use a character with the Mys^cism K/S, make a
roll against it as Diculty Ra^ng Absurd (X .01), and hope for the best.

Of course, you could akempt to use the Find Correct Listserv K/S, at a
Diculty Ra^ng of Couldn't Be Simpler (X 100). It all depends on who
your JM is...
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 00:40:06 -0400

Subject: Subterranean AErth

In an eort to prepare for my group's next adventure, I am drawing up notes
on some of the intelligent denizens of the Shallowshadows. However, I've
no^ced an anomaly: there don't seem to be any languages listed for them.
Those such as the Albies must obviously speak with surface dwellers for
trading. Do they speak Trade Phoenecian? Is there some underworld
equivalent? And what gods do their priestcraevers worship?

Now I have some ideas for this (they're standing in line with all the other
unwrikten ideas I have yet to nish). Has anyone else done any kind of
development work on this?

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 14:35:18 +0200
Subject: Q: Subterranean AErth - Lifeforms and Cultures

In their quest for bringing peace to the world, the HPs in my group will
have to travel into the Subterranean (and most probably Interior) AErth to
nd the cause of the problems in the Exterior AErth.

At current progres, they will be descending the next weekend. At the moment
I'm trying to work out details for that part of the adventure, working with
the material provided in Epic of AErth and the Besâry.

The group consists of 3 players (a black PP dweomercaver, an assassin and a
physically oriented thief who dabbles in green and grey dweomercrav), and
probably one or two NPC (a mercenary and a elementalist FP dweomercraver)
At present, they are located in the mountains at the Burgarian/Vlachian/
Serbian border.

A likle background on the current campaign. The HPs have succesfully
fulllled several assignments for the Bulgarian local nobleman in the past,
and now have accepted the assignment to look into the sigh^ngs of strange,
small humanoids that are quite hos^le to humans. 200 years before, similar
creatures displaying the same hos^lity had been sighted in that area. Aver
some ^me, they disappeared and were never seen again.
The HPs have found the place where they appear: a large cave system in
inaccessible part of the mountains on the Vlachian side of the border.
Currently, they have ventured into the caves.....

I think I will iniâlly have the HPs meet with non-hos^le species like
Albi's and/or Trogs to give them an impression of Subterranean AErth (and at
the same ^me set them up with a possible side line in the plot of building
a trading business with those species).
Subsequently, they will be introduced in to Albi and Trog society, and

thereby in the hos^liês between Abli's/Trogs and Slugbellies. I'm
thinking of making this one of the plotlines for a side/future adventure for
them.

This week I will work on the Albi and Trog socieês. To prevent reinven^ng
the wheel, is there anybody who has done such already?
Albi's most probably will be grouped in clan villages because this seems
ing to their status as mercenaries/traders. They'll be primarily loyal
to their clan, and secondarily loyal to their employers.
Trogs most probably will be grouped in villages that specialize in
producôn of either food crops or rare herbs or in producôn of minerals
and ores. The Trogs hire Albi's to protect their shipments of merchandise
and jointly make war on species hos^le to both Albi's and Trogs.

Has anyone ran a campain in Subterranean and Interior AErth?
Any suggesôns for running such a campaign?
Has anyone spend ^me on eshing out or augmen^ng the descripôns found
in Epic of AErth and in the Besâry?

Any input, suggesôns and cri^cs are welcome. :)

Harold Stringer
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 19:51:16 EDT
Subject: A shot to the groin?

While I was working on a program to simplify armor selecôn, I came
to the realizaôn that there are no published protecôns for
categories 5 and 10. Now, category 5 is 'Trousers', and I guess
armored trousers are unusual outside of India, but category 10 is
'Groin cup.' Any other guys out there wincing with me, here? ;)

Lucifer >:}

-csc3rwm@cabell.vcu.edu |Once I had the rarest rose,
noc^fer@aol.com |That ever deigned to bloom.
AD&D GM, Mythus Maniac, Greyhawk Guru|Cruel winter chilled the bone,
GURPS Marvel PBEM GM, Marvel-RPG Mang|And stole my ower too soon.
| -- Love Song for a Vampire
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 00:57:27 -0400

Subject: Re: A shot to the groin?

Lucifer (Can I call you Luc? Loose? :))

I made up a Groin Cup recently. I'm remaking the armor tables in my own
image (uh...god complex). Anyway, if you guys like it, use it. If not,
x it for your own good...

Pie Cut Blu Fir Che Stu Ele SF Cost
Groin Cup 4 4 4 2 2 6 -4 .33 500

The SF of .33 is only because you might get chafed (ouch!). That might
have to be increased to .5 or so...

Also, I have it as only protec^ng vs. Ultra-Vital akacks. Women may
not believe that it's UV, but it is... :)

As an aside, I guess you'd have to pay more for a bigger size, huh? ;-P

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 05:12:15 -0400
Subject: Kell^c Gods Pt. I

OK, I've been puing it o far too long. Here's a list of Kell^c
gods/goddesses and some notes about them. As is apparent, there is a whole
host of informaôn that needs to be added, and it's out there, but the press
of ^me is like heavy stones on my chest (sigh). As soon as there are about
8 more hours in each day I will get it all done; un^l then, I will post in
pieces what I think is the most usable data on the Kell^c religion. I'll
start with the references I have at hand for those who want to do their own
research.

Everyman's Dicônary of Non-Classical Mythology (Egerton Sykes). This puppy
is a collecôn of non-Greek/Roman gods, etc. En^res are all barebones but
it does include many less well-known pantheons, including the Phoenecian,
Zoroastrian (Persian?), Slavic, etc. In fact, from likle clues in the
wri^ng style I believe Gary has read this book and used it as one of the
inspiraôns for the AErth pantheons (though I can't prove this, of course).

A Guide To The Gods (Richard Carlyon). Another pantheis^c work, this one
also covers many dierent religions. Carlyon's wri^ng style is less formal
than most other mythology books and has likle humorous asides, to wit:
under 'Oceania' we nd the following entry-->
"Wuraka--Australian god and companion of the mother creatress Imbero-mbera,
with whom he came walking out of the sea. Wuraka had a penis so long and
heavy that he was obliged to carry it slung round his neck. A large rock
named 'Tor Rock' marks the spot on land where he sat down to rest, no doubt
^red out by his burden. Let that be a lesson to us all."

Cel^c Gods, Cel^c Goddesses (R.J. Stewart). A good overview of the
mythology itself and what we know of the religion, though a bit wordy. It
has some lovely color illustraôns of the major deiês, however.

Cel^c Myths and Legends (Charles Squire). Somewhat scholarly but useful for
gaming nonetheless. It recaps many of the major and a few minor Cel^c
legends, which provide informaôn about the many gods.

The Silver Arm (Jim Fitzpatrick). This book concentrates only on the Tuatha
de Dannan (Children of Danu) but has many beau^ful color illustraôns. The
author akempted to create an illustrted book along the lines of the Book of
Kells.

Treasures of Irish Folklore (Colm Duggan). Not a major refernece for deiês
but it has some useful notes about hags, likle people, etc.

Great Folk Tales of Old Ireland (Mary McGarry). As above but a few more
stories about the later gods (Tuatha de Danaan).

The Magic Arts in Cel^c Britan (Lewis Spence). Some informaôn about the
gods but much more useful regarding magic, druidism, spells, etc. A quote:
"The Irish sun-god Lugh was also possessor of a magical spear which seems to
have symbolized a ray of the sun. It was gived with an individual life of
its own and was so thirsty for blood that it could be kept from slaying only
by steeping its head in an infusion of poppy leaves which acted as a narco^c
upon it. On the day of bakle it was taken out of this brew, when it called
out migh^ly, lashing itself into a frenzy and emiing ashes of re.
When freed, it launched itself against the ranks of the enemy in a ^reless
orgy of slaughter." Cool!

The Mysteries of Britain (Lewis Spence). This is more philosophical thatn
the previous work but is s^ll useful for its secôns on the Cel^c rites,
belief in the averlife, and so forth.

Irish Folk Tales (Henry Glassie). Not too useful except for the informaôn
about Irish belief in ghosts, banshees, etc.

Irish Witchcrav and Demonology (St. John D. Seymour). Not really applicable
for Kell^c gods but useful for the supposed historical discoveries about
witchcrav. I use it as a source for names of evil OPs in my campaign, who

may or may not be true witches.

Well, I think I will stop there. Later in the week I will post some actual
deiâl info and at sporadic intervals thereaver. Please be paênt and I
think you will like the result.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 07:12:58 -0600

At 12:57 AM 4/30/96 -0400, you wrote:

>
> Pie Cut Blu Fir Che Stu Ele SF Cost
>Groin Cup 4 4 4 2 2 6 -4 .33 500
>
>The SF of .33 is only because you might get chafed (ouch!). That might
>have to be increased to .5 or so...
>
>Also, I have it as only protec^ng vs. Ultra-Vital akacks. Women may
>not believe that it's UV, but it is... :)

Actually, I think it's technically Super Vital... but younger guys than Gary
might argue that :)

__
/\ \
\ \ \____ __ __ _ __
\ \ '__`\ /'__`\ /'__`\ /\`'__\
\ \ \_\ \/\ __//\ \_\.\_\ \ \/
\ \_,__/\ \____\ \__/.\_\\ \_\
\/___/ \/____/\/__/\/_/ \/_/ @dimensional.com
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 09:52:37 -0400

>Actually, I think it's technically Super Vital...

Groin is SV, simply because Ultra-Vital is more or less are areas where you
could /die/ if hit--Arrow through the eye, blow to the top of the skull,
temple shot, knife thru the heart, etc. The groin is painful, but one is
more likely to survive a knife to that area than a same stab at the heart.
Remember, eunuchs aren't corpses. And this isn't /pain/ being measured, but
damage.

>but younger guys than Gary might argue that :)

Actually, for a man who's had six kids, of various ages...I strongly think
he's as virile and respecul of said area. ;>
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 11:13:12 -0400
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960430135237.00718518@pop.âc.net>

This could become a discussion of how the game works...

I've become more inclined to use the Strike Locaôns as more of a
"Strike Severity" system. I nd it hard to say that a weak persona,
hiing an armored warrior with a dagger, can do like 5 points to UV. I
nd it dicult to narrate such circumstances. Therefore, what I've
done is provide descripôns of increasing strength and pounding for the
higher Strike Locales, rather than say, "Okay, you hit him in the eye,
but you only barely poke him there..." or something like that.

In such a situaôn, Groins _have_ to be Ultra-Vital...

So, in my games, Strike Locale doesn't have to do with actual locaôn
*or* the amount of pain, but rather the cinema^c eect caused.

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 11:43:26 -0400

This is slightly tangental to the discussion, but the best reason I ever
heard for making the groin an ultra-vital hit locaôn was in an account of
the confederate POW camp Andersonville, wriken by a survivor.

He recalled one of the guards kicking a prisoner in the groin so hard that
the man's tes^cles swelled up to peach-size and turned black. He died from
the wound 3 days later. Obviously there were contribu^ng factors such as
the man's poor health, but it seems to me that this preky well ts the
descripôn "ultra-vital".

Think about that next ^me you're considering playing soccer without a cup.

Mak B.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 13:17:57 -0400

>He recalled one of the guards kicking a prisoner in the groin so hard that
>the man's tes^cles swelled up to peach-size and turned black. He died from
>the wound 3 days later. Obviously there were contribu^ng factors such as
>the man's poor health, but it seems to me that this preky well ts the
>descripôn "ultra-vital".
>
Ouch!

S^ll, I wouldn't call it Ultra-Vital simply because the extra mul^plier, I
believe, represents a chance for "instant" or "near-instant" death.
Somebody stabbed in the stomach could survive for 3 days, someone in the
heart or brain about 3 minutes.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 14:09:46 EDT
In-Reply-To: <960430114325_481400923@emout07.mail.aol.com>; from "Makhew
Berry" at Apr 30, 96 11:43 am

> This is slightly tangental to the discussion, but the best reason I ever
> heard for making the groin an ultra-vital hit locaôn was in an account of
> the confederate POW camp Andersonville, wriken by a survivor.
>
> He recalled one of the guards kicking a prisoner in the groin so hard that
> the man's tes^cles swelled up to peach-size and turned black. He died from
> the wound 3 days later. Obviously there were contribu^ng factors such as
> the man's poor health, but it seems to me that this preky well ts the
> descripôn "ultra-vital".

I think this is the excepôn, not the norm, to being struck
in the groin. Chances are the problem arose from the poor medical
condiôns of the area and such. The strike locaôn system, I
think, is set up to iden^fy the immediate problems of a strike to a
certain area. Unfortunately, the game has likle to handle
infecôn and poor health. Remember, though, that, due to poor
medical condiôns, Howard Carter's patron, Lord Carnarvron (-5 sp),
died aver nicking a mosquito bite while shaving (or was that Howard
himself? *shrug*). _Any_ wound is dangerous and deadly, under the
right (i.e. poor) condiôns.

Lucifer >:}

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 14:41:46 -0400

>>>Groin is SV, simply because Ultra-Vital is more or less are areas where
you
could /die/ if hit--Arrow through the eye, blow to the top of the skull,
temple shot, knife thru the heart, etc. The groin is painful, but one is
more likely to survive a knife to that area than a same stab at the heart.
Remember, eunuchs aren't corpses. And this isn't /pain/ being measured, but
damage.<<<

It rather depends on how you dene groin. Don't forget the two large
arteries in near proximity. If hit these can result in the vic^m bleeding
to death within 1-2 minutes, which likely meets anyone's deniôn of
Ultra-vital. I don't have my books handy, Do the legs contain UV locaôns?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 17:40:22 -0400


> It rather depends on how you dene groin. Don't forget the two large
> arteries in near proximity. If hit these can result in the vic^m bleeding
> to death within 1-2 minutes, which likely meets anyone's deniôn of
> Ultra-vital. I don't have my books handy, Do the legs contain UV locaôns?

There's my other reason for playing with the actual locaôns labeled by
Strike Locaôn. What if, for instance, a man is standing on a table, or
a number of steps up a ladder, and you s^ll roll an UV hit? You
couldn't have possibly hit him in the eye (unless you're using a really
long weapon of course...).

In such a case, a limb amputaôn may be called for.

Does anyone have any beker ideas on how to determine limb amputaôn? I
don't like the fact that according to the rules it can only happen once
CL is passed. (I could lose a likle nger and not die. Of course, I
could die of shock, but that's not the point... :))

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 18:55:21 EDT
Subject: Lucifer's Armor Determinator

I recently banged out a program to quickly and easily select
armor for the Advanced Mythus game. It's probably a bit buggy
(though I've goken rid of all the major bugs I could nd), and it
has problems handling anomolies like 'Back-plate.' If you're
interested in the program, which runs under Windows 3.1 +, you can
vp it from:

members.aol.com/noc^fer/progs/armor.zip

If you do check it out, please drop me a line with
suggesôns, commments or whatever.

Lucifer >:}


=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 19:15:13 -0500

On Tue, 30 Apr 1996, Richard Crook wrote:
>
> It rather depends on how you dene groin. Don't forget the two large
> arteries in near proximity. If hit these can result in the vic^m bleeding
> to death within 1-2 minutes, which likely meets anyone's deniôn of
> Ultra-vital. I don't have my books handy, Do the legs contain UV locaôns?
>
I would tend to think that any sort of slicing wound in the groin area
(including the surround area) would result in a serious bleeding injury.
The area is HIGHLY vascularized. A well placed hit (UV srike) could
rupture any number of arteries or veins leading to sever blood loss and
possible unconciousness/death. I remember hearing about a form of
execuôn that involved cuing the femoral arteries (located in the
groin area) and allowing the vic^m to bleed to death. (ugh! Don't ask me
where that came from...my mind picks up wierd things in class)
Anyways, To answer Richard's quesôn, Yes there are the Femoral
arteries (in the upper leg) and the Popliteal arteries located behind the
knee caps that are very near the surface and, if ruptured, could lead to
serious wounds as well as hobbeling.

********************************************************************
*********************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 16:34:36 -0700

At 03:22 AM 4/21/96 +0100, you wrote:
The Mythus rules present us with three types
>of medicines (applicable to humans, that is): standard rst aid, oriental
>medicine (the ying and the yang) and magickal remedies (alchemy, herbalism,
>healing magicks, etc.). S^ll, magickal cures would not always be
>available, and certainly there are few western prac^ôners of the
>oriental arts of healing (if any could subscribe to such a thing).
>Wouldn't it be safe to assume that western medicine has evolved far enough
>to allow it a K/S of its own? If so, would you think that western medicine
>on Aerth would consist of such age-honored prac^ces as bleeding?

BTW, bleeding was an incredibly bad procedure. Its "benecial"
eects were derived from the feelings of lightheadedness/faintness as a
result of loss of oxygenaôn of the brain. It was believed that the "bad
blood" was bled out. I think there were some rituals or something that made
the bad blood leave preferenâlly.

>Or am I just overthinking the issue?

not at all. keep in mind in this type of game there should be all
kinds of quacks as well as legi^mate prac^ôners

In my campaign I use essenâlly two healing methods.

Medic skills- use of First Aid/Chirurgery/Herbalism in conjuncôn

First Aid to stabilize and minimize damage
Chirurgery and Herbalism used to treat damage
Chirurgery(M trait) includes primarily cauterizaôn, suturing, and
disinfec^ng (this skill is primarily Arabic in origin), but has analogues
in Aeropan and Asia^c cultures(at higher STEEP includes knowledge of
treatment of joint/ car^lage damage and organ damage-at this level,
chirurgeon can research appropriate Herbalism treatment to allow recovery
from Supravital wounds(these skills can normally only be used to treat
Nonvital and Vital type wounds)
Used together at suciently (very)high skill and with sucient luck,
these two skills allow good recovery from all(even body cavity!)
wounds/damage except Heart injury, Brain injury, or massive blood
loss(However, this level of skill is rare-think 60s/70s in Herbalism and
Chirurgery)
w/o successful Chirurgery, muscle damage can occur, giving P trait penalês
to the aected limb specically, successful use allows recovery from
wounds and alleviaôn of this penalty.

Miraculous healing-availible only through priests, and only to those of
similar ethoi/goals, preferably one under a vow to the same or an allied

diety==>a priest of sunlight ethoi can only physically heal(or spiritually
for that maker) someone else of sunlight(maybe moonlight) ethoi

I nd this makes combat much more deadly, and truly powerful
healing far more valuable.

A note about diseases and poisons-except for clerical(again
"miraculous")spells-I do not allow the general, easy "Arrest Disease" or
"An^toxin Formula" type spell use, instead, one must rst iden^fy the
nature of the disease/toxin, requiring a successful Herbalism roll against a
DR Hard for toxins and the disease, the prac^ôner may then cast the Spell
or Formula. (S)He must then roll a second ^me to see if the treatment
worked(again, DR hard).
These rules apply to "Arrest Disease" and other similar Herbalism treatments
as well.
Joss may only be used to modify the rst test.
(given these rules, guess where lot of Joss gets burned)
All requirements under Herbalism K/S entry in Mythus apply to this.
also, no immunizaôn in my game

(I'm not real keen on the Oriental type healing, but allow it for the ^me
being)

With herbal and magickal cures, one
>would hardly need to develop penecilian.

Use of penicillin easily falls within the domain of herbalism-it was
a product of cheese mold(now we use organic chemistry because it is more
ecient)

>BTW, why is the sky blue.... ;)

The refracôn of light through the atmosphere, acts like a prism,
thats why you get the beau^ful colors at sunsets(you are seeing the other
wavelengths) ;~)

Hope this sowed some seeds of ideas

Mike (the symbiote lives on)

P.S.-Am I s^ll on this newsgroup? Obviously yes. Will I ever post new
creatures/adventures/etc here? Not as long as EGS is here.(though I will
send stu to those I feel I can trust with my creaôns(now working on the
Greater Nightmare)) :@

P. P. S.-Sorry about the name confusion Dave

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 20:38:28 -0400
Subject: Parts is Parts

Actually, I don't think potenâl blood drain is part and parcel of the
strike locaôn. I believe the damage is measured as one-strike potenâl,
etc.

Rather, its measuring the existance of vital areas, usually organs. The
heart, lung, brain, eye--the vitals. (Remember--VITAL, SUPER-vital,
ULTRA-Vital. Heart and Brain would be Ultra-Vital, perhaps lungs. Eye,
Stomach/Liver/etc would be Supervital. Other "Meaty Parts" are Vital, while
extremites are non-vital.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 21:13:40 EDT
Subject: The Orc

What follows is the orc race that I've been working on for
my own home-brew Mythus campaign. He's a good deal stronger than
the orc of the Mythus books, but I was never really sa^sed with
making orcs nothing more than slobbering cannon fodder. :) Well,
anyways, enjoy. If you've got any quesôns, comments or need any
claricaôns, as usual, go ahead and send them my way or post them
to the list. The format is from the Mythus Besâry.

Lucifer >:}

Orc
Idenêr: Homo Sapien Porcus
Habitat: Forest, plains, steppes
Size: Medium
Number Appearing: 7-12 (1D6+6), 40 - 80 ((D5+3)x10) in seklement,
more possible
Walk: 87 yds/BT
Run: 261 yds/BT
Iniâ^ve Modiers: Human standard
Arms & Armor at 21-30 (1D10 + 20)
Combat, Hand-to-Hand, Lethal at 31-40 (1D10 + 30)
Combat, Hand-to-Hand, Non-Lethal at 22-40 (2D10 + 20)
Combat, Hand Weapons at 36-60 (4D6+32)
Criminal Ac^viês, Physical at 43-65 (3D5 + 40)
Endurance at 52-70 (2D10 + 50)
Hun^ng/Tracking at 36-40 (1D5 + 35)
Leatherwork at 21-30 (1D10 + 20)
Military Science at 32-50 (2D10 + 30)
Riding at 23-50 (3D10 + 20)
Streetwise at 14 to 50 (4D10 + 10)
Survival at 32-50 (2D10+40)
Tolerance at 52-70 (2D10+50)
Heka-Users also have:
Dweomercraev, Elemental at 23-35 (3D5 + 20) o
Dweomercraev, Black at 22-40 (2D10 + 20)
Magick at Dweomercraev STEEP
Heka-Forging at 12-30 (2D10 + 10)
Priestcraev, Shadowy Darkness at 51 to 60 (1D10 + 10) or
Priestcraev, Gloomy Darkness at 52 to 70 (2D10 + 20)
Religion at Priestcraev STEEP
Conjuraôn at 21 to 30 (1D10 + 20)
Witchcraev at 31 to 40 (1D10 + 30)

Joss Factors: 1-5
Dodging/Avoidance: 0 and 18/27/17
Akrac^veness: 1-6
Invulnerabiliês: Nil
Suscep^biliês: Nil
Quirks: Excellent night vision

Akacks Avg. BAC Damage Type Base Bonus
Broad Sword 48 C 4D6 6 (2)*
Dagger 48 P 2D6 6 (2)*
* The number in parentheses is the damage bonus with the damage
bonus due to high BAC included.

Powers: Tough skin gives 5 points of natural armor in all damage
areas.

Sta^s^cal Detail:
Base Scheme (+/- 1D6 per ATTRIBUTE)
M: 62, EL: 49 P: 87, WL: 65, CL: 78, RL: 8 S: 53, EL: 42
MM: 30 MR: 32 PM: 54 PN: 33 SM:28 SP: 25
MMCap: 12 MRCap: 12 PMCap: 19 PNCap: 12 SMCap: 10 SPCap: 9
MMPow: 9 MRPow: 11 PMPow: 18 PNPow: 11 SMPow: 9 SPPow: 8
MMSpd: 9 MRSpd: 9 PMSpd: 17 PNSpd: 10 SMSpd: 9 SPSpd: 8

Armor Scheme
(Typical Armor: Plate Mail Suit, Gauntlets, Hoguine, Boots,
Brassarts, Camail, Shield, Round (large))

Area Pie Cut Blu Fir Che Stu Elec. SF Pen
Ultra 30 38 29 25 19 38 -42 10
Super 27 33 27 22 18 35 -39
Vital 15 17 12 15 12 20 -30
Non 24 32 25 28 23 26 -44

With Shield:
Area Pie. Cut Blu. Fir Che. Stu. Ele
Ultra 41 58 46 31 25 58 -47
Super 38 53 44 28 24 55 -44
Vital 26 37 29 21 18 40 -35
Non 35 52 42 34 29 46 -49

A typical orc is of a thicker body than most humans, due
parâlly to a racial inclinaôn towards muscularity, parâlly
because of the rigorous lifestyle of the orcish culture. Skin
pigment is typically a grayish-green coloraôn which is vile to
most humans, but pigmentaôn ranging from ivory to olive are
possible; there have even been some reports of ebony-eshed orcs,
however, these individuals are treated with par^cular reverance by
the society and almost always are Heka capable. Regardless of
coloraôn, orcs oven have warty and spoked skin. Their eyes are
sliked, much like a cat's eyes, and give the orc an hightened
ability to see in the dark, as long as some light is present.
Typical eye pigmentaôn is brown or red, though orange, blue and
green are possible. Orcs born with two blue eyes are gene^cally
blind, and usually killed at birth. Orcs with one blue eye and one
eye of another coloraôn are not common, but moreso than within the
human populaôn, and have full normal sight. The orcish nose is
typically upturned, giving them something of a snout-like
appearance. It is an erroneous, but common, assumpôn that orcs are
somehow related to pigs. Orcs are typically extremely hirsuite, and
hair coloraôn is almost unerringly black.
Orcish society is harsh and violent by human standards.
Orcs, however, do subscribe to a strong system of honor and are far
from the ignorant brutes that human society would depict them as
being. Orcish society is dominated by warfare. Any orcish child
born with a crippling deformity is usually killed immediately, and,
in some areas, the parents are rendered neuter, to preserve the
purity of the race, unless they have proven that they are capable of
producing stong ospring. Orcish women usually produce between two
and ve children, however, infant death is oven enough that
typically only 40% of those born will survive to the age of four.
Those that do survive to this age go through their rst ritual of
aging, called Terregor in the orcish language, which roughly
translates to 'Ritual of Being.' It is at this ^me that the young
orc is introduced to the others of his family or clan, and is given
his rst weapon, a small dagger, which is then scrapped across part
of his body, usually leaving a scar that persists to puberty (it is
considered a good sign for the scar to persist into adulthood). The
child then becomes the responsibility of the extended family, who
take care to insure that the child receives the proper combat and
social training.
At the age of nine, most orcs, male and female, go through
puberty. It is at this ^me that the second ritual of aging,
referred to as Balkhlegor in the orcish language, which roughly
translates into 'Ritual of Viri^ly', occurs. It is at this ^me
that the young orc is given his rst broadsword, with which he is
injured in a similar fashion as during Terregor, and his rst
horse. It is customary in some areas for the Balkhlezarsh (the
sword given in Balkhlegor) to have been forged by the young orc
himself, with only the assistance of any younger siblings they might
have. During this ceremony, the young orc must prove himself in
bakle to others of his age. Those orcs who are par^cularly
successful during their Balkhlegor tournaments are some^mes
selected by the Bhurakhan, the head of the family, as something akin
to a client. Those so selected will some^mes be selected by the
Bhurakhan as his ^tular heir.
At the age of 10, young orcs are considered to be adults,
with the responsibility of par^cipa^ng in hun^ng and gh^ng
with the rest of the family or clan. Acceptance into the ranks of
the soldiery occurs during the Orgarishgor, during which ^me the
young orc must lead his rst group hunt, and an orc undergoing
Orgarishgor who kills his own prey single-handedly is considered to
be especially honored.
At the end of every decade aver the rst, an orc must
return to his family, or hereditary home, and undergo Palishkagor,
which roughly translates into 'Ritual of Rearmaôn.' It is at
this ^me that the orc oers a small vial of blood to his parents
or his family's Bhurakhan, and must go through a ritual in which the
younger members of his family strike him with ritualis^c stas,
during which ^me he announces the honors that he has brought to his
name in bakle. Allowances are made for this ceremony if the orc is
not able to return to his hereditary home or family, and companions
in war and his Kavrakhan (war leader) are oven considered apt
replacements for family and/or Bhurakhan. An orc who cannot undergo
this ceremony for whatever reason is considered a Dharkulster, or
'exile,' and, if the condiôns under which he cannot undergo his
Palishkagor cannot be lived, oven commit ritual suicide.
Ritual suicide occurs when an orc, for whatever reason, has

dishonored himself to the point of becoming a Dharkulster. In the
orcish language, it is referred to as Xalishmakh, which roughly
translates into 'the Cleansing.' And orc who is unable to undergo
Xalishmakh because of inrmity or insanity can be judged unt by a
Bhurakhan or by his Phatrakhan, the leader of his clan, and
Xalishmakh can be performed by others. This honor is usually given
to the Dharkulster's rst spouse, heir, eldest son or by someone of
the Bhurakhan's choosing, in that order. An orc who has been
proclaimed a Dharkulster by a Bhurakhan or Phatrakhan and ees from
Xalishmakh for any reason is subject to a Churregor, which roughly
translates to 'Ritual of Blood', wherein the oender's name is
spread throughout the local orcish community as someone to be hunted
down and killed. The head of such a renegade is to then be taken to
his Bhurakhan or Phatrakhan as proof, and then buried.
The death of an orc in good standing or a Dharkulster who
has undergone Xalishmakh is called the Nikhilegor, or 'Final
Ritual'. An orc who has died in bakle or Xalishmakh is immediately
considered to be among the honored dead, and there is no need for
further ritual. An orc who has died by other means, such as
disease, is taken by his family or clan and êd to a post, wherein
they akack the body with any weapons available, and leave it to rot
for six months. During this ^me, the horse of the deceased is also
killed, though in some areas it becomes the property of his
Bhurakhan or Phatrakhan. At the end of this ^me, the skull is
taken, cleaned, and used to adorn the family home, clan home, or
property of the heir of the deceased. The body is disposed of in
whatever fashion suits its condiôn. Some homes of the older clans
are decorated with literally thousands of the skulls of the dead.
Orcish tradiôn holds that these skulls are a connecôn of the
deceased to later generaôns, and that they watch and judge the
acôns of the living through them. There is apparently some truth
to this belief, as an orcish spirit cannot be summoned by the use of
Heka without the presence of the skull of the deceased.
The orcish family unit is headed by the Phatrakhan, who is
usually the eldest parent in the family. Orcrish society is not
separated by the sexes, and it is a polygamous society. Oven, a
family unit is composed of several fathers and mothers, though it is
usual that there are more men within a family unit, because of the
dangers of the birth proceedure. For a marriage to take place
between man and woman, all of the parents in a family must agree, as
the husbands and wives of a family are considered to be marrying the
new spouse. The ceremony of marriage is a simple one, requiring the
presence of the Bhurakhan and Phatrakhan and all spouses of the
family, if they are available. Divorce is a simple aair, and, if
it is not permiked by the Phatrakhan of the family, is easily
obtainable by a nod from the Bhurakhan, usually without a reason as
to the necessity of the separaôn being voiced. If both of those
authoriês forbid the separaôn, the orc must depart from the
village in which he or she lives and nd a new home elsewhere.
Other than the Phatrakhan, the rst spouse, called the Makhradar,
is the most important member of the family. The Makhradar's
responsibiliês include keeping watch over the household, caring
for the young, and judging of aairs within the family. In the
case of the death of the Phatrakhan, the Makhradar becomes the
Phatrakhan, or chooses one, if an heir has not been chosen. It is
the responsibility of the Phatrakhan to choose his or her Makhradar,
and has the right to replace his or her Makhradar at any ^me from
the spouses of the family. Though it is tradiônal for the
Makhradar and Phatrakhan to be of dierent sexes, there is no taboo
against them being of the same sex. Oven, an aged Phatrakhan who
can no longer lead his family or clan into combat chooses to step
down and become the Makhradar to his heir, in which case the new
Phatrakhan can never choose to replace him or her un^l his or her
death.
The leader of an orcish community is referred to as the
Bhurakhan, as has already been menôned. This staôn is usually
held by a male, but female Bhurakhans are not completely unusual.
Bhurakhans handle the aairs of the community, including
establishing trade relaôns with other Bhurakhans and individuals,
and deciding when to declare Monkhagor against another community.
Monkhagor is an unusual state, similar to a feud in human socieês,
wherein two or more communiês of orcs akempt to annihilate one
another, but do not commit armies to the eld of combat. A
Monkhagor cannot be called o for any reason; even if all members
of a par^cular community are destroyed, an orc under the
responsibility of Monkhagor must destroy any evidence that his
enemy's community ever existed, including destroying the products of
that community (such as horses or swords carrying a symbol from that
community). The Bhurakhan is oven the Phatrakhan of his family
group, but this is not a requirement. When a Bhurakhan dies, all
contracts and edicts of that Bhurakhan are voided, unless rearmed
by his successor, including a Monkhagor (however, since it is
customary for all Bhurakhans involved in a Monkhagor to declare it
upon each other, the death of one of the Bhurakhans involved rarely
ends it). A Bhurakhan is oven the head of a village of some sort,
and also is oven the head of an extended family that may or may not
exist en^rely in the village of which he is head. In the cases of
ritual necessity, either the Bhurakhan of a par^cular village or
the Bhurakhan of one's clan is approriate, if they are two separate
individuals. All Bhurakhans are, tradiônally, equals. However,
through trade agreements or edicts of the Dhalkazar, some Bhurakhans
owe something akin to fealty to powerful neighboring Bhurakhans.
The Bhurakhan is held responsible only to the Dhalkazar.
The Dhalkazar, who never refer to themselves as single individuals,
are priestcraevers, usually Full Prac^ôners, who travel
throughout orcish lands observing society and giving edicts to
Bhurakhans as necessary. Their word, in eect, is law, and their
edicts do not expire upon death. Only the edict of another
Dhalkazar can end the edict of a previous one. It is unknown how
many Dhalkazar there are, because of their nomadic nature, and their
acolytes are trained in secret, in an unknown locaôn. It is even
unkown exactly how an acolyte is chosen. What is known is that, at
^mes, the Dhalkazar will come into a community and take a child or
two who has not yet undergone his Terregor and is raised by the
Dhalkazar for some ^me before his is permiked to leave. It is
rare to see an individual member of the Dhalkazar under the age of
thirty-ve, so it is presumed that it takes some thirty years to
complete their training. Dhalkazar rarely ght themselves, but
they are known and feared among both orcs and their enemies for
their prowess in bakle and the erce magick they wield. It is a
crime to assault or refuse an individual member of the Dhalkazar for
any reason, and the usual punishment for such a crime is immediate,
and dishonorable, death. The Dhalkazar provide a unity to orcish
society, and some non-orcish scholars have theorized that orcish
pakerns over the centuries have shown a peculiar unity, and suspect
an immortal or, at least, long-lived intelligence that is preparing
for world dominaôn at some ^me in the very near future. Most
such scholars are scoed at in intellectual communiês.
What is unknown to even most Bhurakhans is that the
Dhalkazar are commanded by a great dragon, Darcingetorix, who may
even have En^âl powers. Is is believed by most outsiders that
the orcish people have no religion, and it is unknown exactly how
the Dhalkazar receive their powers. Spiritual casters amongst orcs
are extremely rare, and not more than one in a thousand is capable
of channelling Spiritual Heka, and not more than one in ve
thousand of those are capable of fully channelling Spiritual Heka.
The ability to channel Mental Heka is also rarer than that of
humanity, but it is by no means as rare as the usage of Spiritual
Heka. It is believed by some that the odds of any individual orc
being able to u^lize Mental Heka is the same as for humans, but
actual prac^ôners are rare because the secrets of Dweomercraev
are not highly respected amongst orcish communiês, except in it's
most powerful forms. Needless to say, those orcs trained in the
usage of Heka will have higher ATTRIBUTES, but their Physical
ATTRIBUTES are not diminished by their increased training in
non-Physical TRAITS.
Orcish communiês are either nomadic in style or
permanent. Those which prefer a more nomadic existence usually live
in hide tents which are surprisingly well-made and waterproof. They
can be assembled in thirty minutes by experienced orcs, and can be
disassembled in about half that ^me. This ability for swiv
movement has given rise to many legends about orcs, and confounded
many counter- akacks by non-orcish warriors unaccustomed to orcish
gh^ng tac^cs. Permanent communiês are typically walled
aairs, if possible, and life is centralized around the castle. If
it is a small community, of perhaps 50 to 100, there may be only the
castle of the Bhurakhan present. However, some larger orcish
communiês have several strong points of defense, and legend states
that some ciês have literally become forêd mountains through
ages of construcôn and reconstrucôn. Orcish homes, whether

castle or small hovels, are en^rely build of stone, including the
rooves, where possible, and are known for being pracâlly
impregnible. It is the responsibility of a new Phatrakhan to build
a new home, and children who marry their rst spouse are required
to leave the home, and have a new home already built.
Orcish dress is usually composed of armor, whether expec^ng
bakle or not (all orcs are taught to expect bakle at all ^mes).
Metal armor is commonplace, as all orcs are trained at an early age
to forge their own iron weapons. An orc in leather armor is
considered to be extremely poor or uneducated by his peers, and is
oven refused admikance to public places of business. Orcs usually
decorate themselves in the body pieces of vanquished enemies, teeth
and ears being the most commonplace. Some choose to wear the skulls
of their most beloved of ancestors, though it is dangerous to wear
such in bakle, where the risk of the destrucôn of the skull and
dishonor to the holder is very real. However, an orc who wears the
skull of his ancestor into bakle and comes out with the skull
intact is considered to be especially brave and earns a special
place amongst his comrades in arms. Orcs also recognize the value
of jewelry, and will some^mes wear various piercings to show their
valor in bakle. There are many more orcs who have shreaded ears
and noses than those who are s^ll able to wear piercings, and those
who show obvious bakle scars but retain their piercings are
considered great warriors. The Dhalkazar always wear well shined
steel skullcaps and carry elaborate, knotwork medallions, as a
symbol of their authority. It is rumored that these objects of
their authority are indestructable, and lost skullcaps or medallions
are retrieved with violent determinaôn, where necessary.
Strangely, the Dhalkazar seem to know when one of their members is
about to die, and are almost always present to retrieve these items.
Orcish weapons are oven extremely well made, by human
standards, and are usually composed of iron or steel. Weapon shops
are rare, however, except in the case of an excepônally gived
weaponsmith or a heka forger. It is considered something of an
embarrassment to use a weapon that the individual did not himself
create. All orcs carry their Terregor dagger, or a replacement of
it, and their Balkhlezarsh, which is a heavy broad sword. Orcs
dislike pole arms, because of the distance at which the enemy is
when killed, but understand the necessity of its usage when facing
cavalrymen. Bows are considered to be nothing more than hun^ng
weapons, though, again, it's uses in warfare are understood.
However, killing an enemy with a bow brings no honor to the victor,
and trophies from such akacks are rare. The crossbow is
prac^cally unknown among orcish arsenals, though it is not
completely unknown for orcs to use them in castle defense.
Catapults, onagers, trebuchets and other long-range seige equipment
are well known among the orcs, however, though they are only used
against castles, and not against a standing army. When akacking a
castle, orcs prefer to use sapping techniques, at which they have no
equal, and boring or ramming equipment. The cat or belfry is also a

favored piece of seige equipment, and some castle holders have been
known to permit a belfry to roll up to their castle wall and their
enemy to exit it, so that they can ght in closer combat.
Orcs oven raid into neighboring territories, as they
consider themselves the righul holders of the land and the natural
rulers over all socieês. A formal declaraôn of war is rare, but
legend states that, at the edict of the Dhalkazar, a number of
powerful Bhurakhan commiked themselves to Monkhagor against a human
kingdom, and that kingdom was completely destroyed within a decade
of constant warfare. When an orcish raiding band, called a
Dun'nvara (pronounced, roughly, Doon-nevara), defeats a town or
village, its Dunekhan oven proclaims himself its Bhurakhan,
divorcing himself from whatever former spouses he chooses, and
enslaves whatever populaôn remained. The Dunekhan has rights to
whatever booty is gained from a raid or victory, unless he is under
contract from a Bhurakhan sta^ng otherwise, excep^ng that booty
which is carried or worn by an individual or the horse he is riding
(pack animals are excluded), which is the right of the individual or
individuals who defeated him. The Dunekhan decides the outcome of
any dispute over the right to booty.
The orcish language is harsh and gukeral to human ears, and
dicult to pronounce properly by those races without a similar
nasal structure. Orcs do have a wriken language, though this is
used almost exclusively by the Dhalkazar. Some of the more powerful
Bhurakhan and more intelligent members of the race have also learned
to read and write, though such learning almost always takes place
once an individual has reached adulthood, and usually during a
temporary illness. A Makhradar usually is able to read and write,
due to the extreme amount of ^me they have outside the bakleeld
with which to study. The orcish wri^ng system is fairly
simplis^c, and is composed mostly of straight lines, easily etched
into stone and steel. The Dhalkazar also have a language peculiar
to themselves, which they use to communicate with each other. The
Dhalkazar almost never speak the common orcish tongue to each other,
preferring instead to translate a statement if they intend for a
comment directed to a fellow Dhalkazar to be understood by other
orcs.
As orcs are extremely prac^cal creatures, their art forms
are somewhat limited. Statuary is some^mes constructed to
commemmorate a great ancestor or Bhurakhan, but such construcôn is
considered vanity if it is not warranted. Tapestry is usually
highly ornamental and rarely depicts people or animals, and is used
more oven for comfort in dravy castles than decoraôn (though
excessive usage of tapestry is considered to be an indicaôn of
illness or inability to cope with weather). Portraiture is
extremely rare, and pain^ngs on canvas are even rarer. Orcish
jewelry is excellent in cravsmanship, but, as the subjects are
oven symbols of death or reproducôn, are usually repugnant to
non-Orcs. Facial pain^ng is rare except in ^mes of open warfare,
and is done more to frighten opponents than enhance beauty.

Architecture is similarly funcônal and defensive in nature, and
windows are kept small, as orcs need very likle light to see.
Glassed windows are prac^cally non-existent, since orcs see likle
reason to cover a perfectly good vantage point for defense. Orcish
homes are oven decorated with the skulls of their ancestors, as
menôned above, but they never retain the en^re skull of an enemy,
man or animal, as a trophy, as they believe that it will permit the
enemy to see into their home from beyond and bring about harm to
them.
Slavery is not commonplace in orcish society, though it does
exist. Slavery is considered to be the lowest form of existence,
and an orc would rather commit Nikhilegor than be enslaved by a
non-Orc. Humans are the slaves of choice amongst orcs, though
dwarves are preferred for mining work and, if they are truly
talented, the creaôn of arms. Orcs hate all other races, and
revile them as inferiors, but they par^cularly despise elves, and
almost never use them as slaves, preferring instead to kill them and
take their ears as a trophy. Gnomes and hobbits are considered
likle more than pests, to be trampled underfoot. It is rare,
though not uncommon, for a male orc to claim a captured female as
booty, as they believe that humans consider their wives and
daughters to be property (and they're not far o the mark in some
areas). Some^mes, they will rape her and leave her to fend for
herself. It is known that elves, gnomes, and dwarves and humans are
all compa^ble with orcs, though elven crossbreeds are usually
deserted upon birth in the forest by elven society. Those ospring
of an orc and other races are treated with suspicion and hatred in
the community that they are born into, excep^ng dwarves, who accept
the individual fully into their society. Half-orcs are also
considered to be a lesser species within the orcish community,
assuming they somehow escaped being killed at birth by their family,
but can rise even as far as a Bhurakhan if they show true prowess in
bakle. It is known that some Dhalkazar are half-breeds, and rumor
states that the Dhalkazar have actually travelled into foreign
communiês to retrieve half-breeds that they have selected to join
their number.
Orcs have the following sensory abiliês: HH, SU, XD.

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 01:10:45 EDT

Subject: New Armor Determinator already?

Okay, I got bored and added a few new features to the Mythus
Armor Determinator. If you've uploaded it in the last few hours,
you might want to go check out version 1.1. As usual, quesôn,
suggesôns, comments, reviews, etc. welcome.

Lucifer >:}

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 02:27:15 -0400
Subject: Groins--Ultra or Super Vital?

There is some jus^caôn for saying that a groin injury could kill you,
but in most instances it would not. I have read another historical example
concerning self-inicted groin injuries where death did not result (from the
groin wound, anyway).

According to Daniel P. Mannix in "The History of Torture," an Iroquois
warrior captured and tortured by the Shawnee laughed at their eorts and
told them he'd show them how to do it properly. They let him go and he
squaked over a re un^l his genitals roasted o, yet never screamed. The
Shawnee were so impressed with his toughness that they considered making him
a member of the tribe, but nally decided that he was now "spoiled," so they
tomahawked him to death.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 09:11:07 -0400


>He recalled one of the guards kicking a prisoner in the groin so hard that
>>the man's tes^cles swelled up to peach-size and turned black. He died
from
>>the wound 3 days later. Obviously there were contribu^ng factors such as
>>the man's poor health, but it seems to me that this preky well ts the
>>descripôn "ultra-vital".
>>
>Ouch!
>
>S^ll, I wouldn't call it Ultra-Vital simply because the extra mul^plier, I
>believe, represents a chance for "instant" or "near-instant" death.
>Somebody stabbed in the stomach could survive for 3 days, someone in the
>heart or brain about 3 minutes.

Yeah, if death is the criteria then the groin isn't ultra-vital (though as
Richard Crook pointed out, the femoral arteries are). The groin does
highlight the problem that Mythus and most other combat systems have, that
you have a hard ^me incapacita^ng someone without killing them. I have yet
to see a system that comes close to modeling the general feel of combat both
with and without weapons, without being terribly SLOW. Taking an en^re
evening to roleplay a 30 second bar ght is not my idea of fun.

Mak B.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 10:06:30 -0400

> Yeah, if death is the criteria then the groin isn't ultra-vital (though as
> Richard Crook pointed out, the femoral arteries are). The groin does
> highlight the problem that Mythus and most other combat systems have, that
> you have a hard ^me incapacita^ng someone without killing them. I have yet
> to see a system that comes close to modeling the general feel of combat both
> with and without weapons, without being terribly SLOW. Taking an en^re
> evening to roleplay a 30 second bar ght is not my idea of fun.
>
> Mak B.

This is true. How about this (admikedly quick and not long-thought-out)
idea: For UV strikes, the persona (HP, OP or otherwise) must make a PMCap
roll (at what?) or Endurance, if possessed. Failure to succeed results
in a Stunning result similar to that result in the Marvel RPG. Okay,
make it a sliding scale (thinking as I type).

UV Stun Roll Chart

DR Result
Failure Knocked out, and won't wake up for a while
Easy Stunned for 1D10 AT's
Moderate Stunned for 1D10 BT's
Hard Stunned for 1D10 CT's

Dicult Stunned for 1 CT
Extreme Ha! My head is harder than you think! :)

Okay, maybe the results can change. The HP makes the roll, and the
player states at what level he would have succeeded. For instance, the
guywith a 20 PMCap rolls a 35. This would be a Moderate Success.

Comments?

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 08:52:46 -0600

At 10:06 AM 5/1/96 -0400, you wrote:
>> Yeah, if death is the criteria then the groin isn't ultra-vital (though as
>> Richard Crook pointed out, the femoral arteries are). The groin does
>> highlight the problem that Mythus and most other combat systems have, that
>> you have a hard ^me incapacita^ng someone without killing them. I have yet
>> to see a system that comes close to modeling the general feel of combat both
>> with and without weapons, without being terribly SLOW. Taking an en^re
>> evening to roleplay a 30 second bar ght is not my idea of fun.
>>
>> Mak B.
>
>This is true. How about this (admikedly quick and not long-thought-out)
>idea: For UV strikes, the persona (HP, OP or otherwise) must make a PMCap
>roll (at what?) or Endurance, if possessed. Failure to succeed results
>in a Stunning result similar to that result in the Marvel RPG. Okay,
>make it a sliding scale (thinking as I type).
>

I woulda swore that that was in the game somewhere already... at any rate, I
use this rule:

Begin HouseRule:

Have the player make a roll versus PMCap (diculty varies) to avoid
Becoming Stunned (As covered in the Mythus rules -- basically all skills are
halved temporarily and your ini^^ve sucks) *If they sustained damage was
greater than their PMCap aver Armor protecôn is subtracted.*

Equaôn: If [(Damage Rolled - Armor Protecôn) > PMCap], then roll vs PMCap

The nice thing about this is that any type of hit could result in a stun
result, if the akacker gets alikle lucky.

=====================================================
Major Hit (Damage - ArmorProtecôn > PMCap) was to:

Non-vital = Roll versus: PMCap @ Very Easy (x4)
Vital = Roll versus: PMCap @ Easy (x3)
Non-vital = Roll versus: PMCap @ Average (x2)
Non-vital = Roll versus: PMCap @ Hard (x1)
=====================================================

This 'damage sustained was over the PMCap aver armor' rule is one I like to
use to signal ^mes when amputaôn of some kind is possible, as well.

Alternately, to speed it up, just have em roll if the Sustained Damage was >20.

Note that in the rules, you suer these stunned aects regardless of any
roll once you hit Wound Level (aver having taken about 75% of your PD in
damage) -- it's at this point many of my grunt NPC's succumb to shock and
collapse, so actually, alot of ghts don't end in fataliês ... in fact,
most ghts are preky quick and brutal, then over :)
___
| |_) | \| ` ' | \ --Hawthorne
__|____/|____|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 08:43:00 PDT
From: Paul Wocken <SCG@WSDOT.WA.GOV>
Subject: Armor Program

Howdy all.

I have given Lucifer's armor program a run and I must say it isn't bad but
does have some problems. For example: If you select a helmet and then
select shoulder protecôn it deletes your helmet protecôn choice. That
is simply wrong. Also, if you select a full suit, of say leather, you are
supposed to be able to apply addiônal single pieces to the suit in the
dierent locaôns. However, if you have selected a full suit and then
select shoulder protecôn, you cannot select addiônal arm protecôn

without it deleteing your shoulder protecôn. Things like this are very
irrita^ng in what is otherwise a very useful likle program.

And I know from experiance that wearing a helm and shoulder protecôn is
nopt mutually exclusive. Same is true of arm protecôn and shoulder
protecôn. But this laker may be from some obscure rule about just what
areas of a full suit can be enhanced with addiônal pieces. If so I
haven't found it in the rules but that don't mean it isn't there. Anyone
know more about this?

Paul Wocken
scg@wsdot.wa.gov
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 20:13:45 +0200
Subject: Re: The Orc

Hi Lucifer,

Great work. Very handy to have around. :)

> What follows is the orc race that I've been working on for
>my own home-brew Mythus campaign. He's a good deal stronger than
>the orc of the Mythus books, but I was never really sa^sed with
>making orcs nothing more than slobbering cannon fodder. :)

What wrong with cannon fodder? We use lots of it! >8o

>Orc
>Modes & Rates of Movement:
> Walk: 87 yds/BT
> Run: 261 yds/BT

How did you arrive at those numbers (87, 261)? Any special reason?

>Suscep^biliês: Nil

Why did you take out the Iron Allergy? Personally, I like it. The HP's in my
group s^ll haven't found out why all the orcs they capture, put in chains
and keep locked up behind bars keep geing ill and dying. They're feeding
them all kinds of things to keep them healthy, but it just doesn't work. :)

>Armor Scheme
>(Typical Armor: Plate Mail Suit, Gauntlets, Hoguine, Boots,
>Brassarts, Camail, Shield, Round (large))

Is this the reason you took out the Iron suscep^bility? If not, what metal
do you make the armor out of?

>Commentary & Descripôn:

Lot of useful background. Great!

Harsh society, by the way. The orcs that grow up this way should be quite a
challenge to most human naôns, should the orcs get interested in their
possesions and invade it.

>whatever fashion suits its condiôn. Some homes of the older clans
>are decorated with literally thousands of the skulls of the dead.
>Orcish tradiôn holds that these skulls are a connecôn of the
>deceased to later generaôns, and that they watch and judge the
>acôns of the living through them. There is apparently some truth
>to this belief, as an orcish spirit cannot be summoned by the use of
>Heka without the presence of the skull of the deceased.

Have you also done work on the Hobbits? The are not described in Mythus, as
are Dwarves, Gnomes, and Elves.

Harold Stringer
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 14:20:52 EDT
Subject: Re: Armor Program
In-Reply-To: <31878863@HQMAILHUB.WSDOT.WA.GOV>; from "Paul Wocken" at May 1,
96 8:43 am

> I have given Lucifer's armor program a run and I must say it isn't bad but
> does have some problems. For example: If you select a helmet and then
> select shoulder protecôn it deletes your helmet protecôn choice. That
> is simply wrong.

Weird. When I get home I'll check that out. Btw, was the
helmet you chose 'Salade w/Menônare' (-5sp). If I recall
correctly, that type of helmet covers the shoulders as well.

> Also, if you select a full suit, of say leather, you are
> supposed to be able to apply addiônal single pieces to the suit in the
> dierent locaôns. However, if you have selected a full suit and then
> select shoulder protecôn, you cannot select addiônal arm protecôn
> without it deleteing your shoulder protecôn. Things like this are very
> irrita^ng in what is otherwise a very useful likle program.
Weird. I'll make everyone aware when v. 1.2 comes out
(should be in the next few days...I don't have exams un^l next week
:) )

> And I know from experiance that wearing a helm and shoulder protecôn is
> nopt mutually exclusive. Same is true of arm protecôn and shoulder
> protecôn. But this laker may be from some obscure rule about just what
> areas of a full suit can be enhanced with addiônal pieces. If so I
> haven't found it in the rules but that don't mean it isn't there. Anyone
> know more about this?

With the excepôn of the possibility of having used the
Salade helmet W/Ment., you're on the money. I'll check through things and
see what's going wrong. Thanks for your input :)

Lucifer >:}

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 12:36:33 -0700
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19960501201821.553f6eea@xs4all.nl> from "Harold
Stringer, Ridascreen-Biopharm B.V." at May 1, 96 08:13:45 pm

> Have you also done work on the Hobbits? The are not described in Mythus, as
> are Dwarves, Gnomes, and Elves.

How about the Alfen?

A corrupôn of "haling"? I think so...

Aaron Brezenski

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 12:41:00 PDT
Subject: Re: Armor program

Howdy all.

Lucifer, I tried several dierent helmets, such as the simple helmet entry
as well as helmet, crested and several others. I did not try the opôn you
menôned but that one would make sense if it also provides shoulder area
protecôn. I will be more than happy to try out version 1.2 for you as
the program will be extremely useful. I hate totalling all the choices in
teh dierent areas and this will save a lot of ^me.

Paul
scg@wsdot.wa.gov
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 18:07:36 -0400
Subject: Re: A shot to the groin
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960430131258.006798e0@dimensional.com>

Re: Ultra-Vital vs. Super-Vital shot to the groin.

I know a spunky young lass who's ex-ancee once made a comment rela^ng
to causing her pain of a sexual nature. (She was a likle messed in the
head at the ^me.) Anyhow, she slided up to him and kicked him in the
jewels three ^mes. Then, as he was writhing on the ground in pain, she
con^nued to rack him ve more ^mes. On the one hand, he lived (though
his urinaôn was painful and bloody for the next three and a half
weeks). On the other hand, she drove him to the hospital (I told you she
was messed up at the ^me!), and the doctors told them that if she had
kicked him one more ^me, he would have died instantly from a combinaôn of
shock and internal injury.

So, she had a blunt weapon and caused massive internal hemmorraging.
There is a good chance that Buace (her pet name for him) is sterile
thanks to this incident, but he's certainly no eunich. I don't think
that Mythus or any other combat system really can adequately describe
this very specic instance. On the other tentacle, I really don't know
that any system should. The idea of having a groin shot strike locaôn
table, much less two separate ones for males and females really holds no
appeal for me.

It seems beker to adjucate some things by JM at instead of one more table.
Otherwise, I'll nd myself one day trying to gure out the precise
point in her cycle my ghter is so that I can roll for menstrual cramps
while making endurance checks to avoid SF penalês and yoga checks to avoid
mental damage from PMS.

--Ryan Snead
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 00:58:25 -0400

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.91.960501173854.17323A-100000@pewee.birds.wm.edu>

> while making endurance checks to avoid SF penalês and yoga checks to avoid
> mental damage from PMS.
>
> --Ryan Snead
> rwsnea@birds.wm.edu

Ryan, good point and painful story. :) However, you'd beker watch that
last sentence. While it is intriguing to think that perhaps PMS does
cause Mental Damage, I think that the poli^cal remicaôns of such a
pronouncement would eec^vely end your campaign... :-D

And by the way, Doyce (I think), Mythus uses "Dazing" not Stunning.
Thanks for reminding me of that basic rule. Some^mes I forget. :) On
the other hand, I don't think they have any rules for using it except for
heavily wounded personas and special cases.

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 08:31:27 -0600

At 12:58 AM 5/2/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>And by the way, Doyce (I think), Mythus uses "Dazing" not Stunning.
>Thanks for reminding me of that basic rule. Some^mes I forget. :) On
>the other hand, I don't think they have any rules for using it except for
>heavily wounded personas and special cases.

Yeah, I checked later and found my notes on the 'Massive damage = Dazing
Houserule'
___
| |_) | \| ` ' | \ --Hawthorne

__|____/|____|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 13:06:38 PDT
Reply-To: bu6467@ccub.wlv.ac.uk
From: "c.i.barnes" <bu6467@WLV.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Armor Program

On Wed, 1 May 1996 14:20:52 EDT Prince O. Darkness wrote:

> Weird. When I get home I'll check that out. Btw, was the
> helmet you chose 'Salade w/Menônare' (-5sp). If I recall
> correctly, that type of helmet covers the shoulders as well.

I have never heard of the term "Menônare" used before, and I'll check the
descripôn in the books when I get home, but no Salade should provide shouder
protecôn that supplants the basic shoulder protecôn provided by the arm
harness. Things like gorgets on the german sallet (for example) only protected the
area from the mouth down to the top of the chest at best and never intruded onto
the shoulder.
Even mail fringes on bascinets rested on top of the pauldrons and even if they did
not add anything to the shoulder certainly should not detract from the protecôn.
Any addiônal protecôn connected to or used with helmets invariably protected
the vulnerable neck not the shoulder.

See Ya
Chris Barnes
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 12:07:01 +0100
Subject: Dweomercrav study rules

Here is the drav of some rules I've drawn up to try and curb the abuse
done in the past to the K/S system, especially in the area of
Dweomercraev. I've had one too many HPs designed with nearly all the
schools accounted for (do you hear me Jade? :). I'd like to hear what the
rest of you think.

Here goes:
_________________
Dweomercr=E6v is perhaps the most demanding of the Heka genera^ng K/S
areas to master, second only in devoôn to the Priestcr=E6v K/S. It is no
surprise then that only true devotees may nd within themselves the power
to fully channel the mys^cal energies of Heka. But whereas Priestcr=E6v
limits its devoôn to one pantheon, patron, and ethos, dweomercr=E6v has n=
o
such limitaôns. In fact, since dweomercr=E6v is both a magickal and
intellectual pursuit, it is not surprising that many seek to master more
than one discipline of that study. However, such mastery, even at
minuscule levels, requires intense study. There is no such thing as a self
taught magi. The Laws of Magick and there applicaôn is a great deal more
than studying a body of cas^ngs.
Now, the Dangerous Journeys RPG prides itself on its open design of
Heroic Personas. The purpose of these rules is by no means meant to limit
the beginning Persona. They are simply meant to impliment a certain amount
of realism to Dweomercr=E6ver HPs. These rules should be applied to both t=
o
the Magick and Dweomercr=E6v (and its sub-areas) K/S Areas.
It is important to remember that there is a reason that the Schools of
Dweomercr=E6v are taught at ins^tuôns. Each has dierent philosophies
and dierent applicaôns of the Laws of Magick. Some of these
philosophies are completely opposed to the other, namely the Black and
White Schools. Schools of these forms are always suspicious of the other,
which can make it very dicult for students of one to akend another.
(This is considering JMs allow such things, for it really makes no sense
other than as a vehicle for power-hunger PLAYERS to gain more cas^ngs or
control more Heka Reservoirs.) However, one persons judgement is not alway
alike to anothers, so these rules are aimed at handling such desires in a
realis^c way as opposed to simply slapping restricôns on the game
system.
When a player creates a HP who is a student of more than one school of
magick, the JM should see to it that the HP's age reects his degree of
knowledge and study in the areas beyond the rst.

STEEP Points Descripôn Min. Study (yrs.)
00 No real knowledge/skill. None
01-10 Rudimentary knowledge/skill only 1
11-15 Novice-level study. Trainee Skill 2
16-20 Lower-intermediate skill. 4
21-25 Middle-intermediate skill. 6
26-30 Upper-intermediate skill. 12
31-35 Full, professional competence. 16
36-40 Above-average professional competence. 20
41-50 Expert-level knowledge 25
51-60 Master-level knowledge. 30
61-80 Pioneer-level knowledge and mastery. 50
81-90 Grand master of eld. *
91+ Ultra-genius ranking. *

* This level of skill may not be acquired through academic study. Most who
reach this degree of exper^se do so through independent research and
study.

As menôned before, this age range may be used for nearly any K/S area.
They are recorded here with the intent to moderate the Dweomercr=E6v K/S.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 12:07:07 +0100
Subject: The Lost Pantheons

Someone wrote a while ago wondering what others had done on the society and
pantheons of the Subterranean cultures. I would like to repose the
quesôn and further it by asking, what are others doing about Phaeree
religions?

Aver a quick glance at the Subterranean cultures, it seems clear that all
but the slugbellies would have developed their own pantheons. The
slugbellies migrated to the Subterranean only a few centuries ago, so most
of them would s^ll follow their indigeionous religion(s), unless someone
would like to address the idea of a subterranean deity leading them down
into the Aerth.
Wiggleheads are another excepôn. These creatures strike me as agnos^cs.
They might be far to intellectual to follow gods. However, I haven't
checked out the Besâry recently, so I could be very wrong.

Now, onto Phaeree. These beings are far too numerous and intermixed for
mul^ple pantheons (the ambiôus guy who wants to go that way has my best
wishes. :). Also, there is likle to no menôn of faerie gods in
folklore. The excepôn to this appears to be the Tuatha de Danua(sp?).
These irish faeries are usually portrayed as superior to the rest (and they
are strangely absent from the Seelie races in EoAe). Could these beings be
"living gods" of sorts?

Your thoughts?

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 14:26:07 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Re: Ultra-Vital vs. Super-Vital shot to the groin

--------------------Forwarded message:
From: jstanton@qualcomm.com (John J. Stanton)
To: MYTHUS-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU
CC: ironbrand@eworld.com
Date: 96-05-02 13:31:55 EDT

>(She was a likle messed in the head at the ^me.) Anyhow, she
>slided up to him and kicked him in the jewels three ^mes. Then,
>as he was writhing on the ground in pain, she con^nued to rack him >ve
>more ^mes.

Was this before or aver she became president of TSR?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 11:41:15 -0700
From: "John J. Stanton" <jstanton@QUALCOMM.COM>
Subject: Re: Ultra-Vital vs. Super-Vital shot to the groin

>(She was a likle messed in the head at the ^me.) Anyhow, she
>slided up to him and kicked him in the jewels three ^mes. Then,
>as he was writhing on the ground in pain, she con^nued to rack him >ve
>more ^mes.

Was this before or aver she became president of TSR?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 15:20:20 EDT
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19960501201821.553f6eea@xs4all.nl>; from "Harold
Stringer, Ridascreen-Biopharm B.V." at May 1, 96 8:13 pm

> Hi Lucifer,
>
> Great work. Very handy to have around. :)

:) Thanks.

> > What follows is the orc race that I've been working on for
> >my own home-brew Mythus campaign. He's a good deal stronger than
> >the orc of the Mythus books, but I was never really sa^sed with
> >making orcs nothing more than slobbering cannon fodder. :)
>
> What wrong with cannon fodder? We use lots of it! >8o

Yeah, but it's not _interes^ng_...well, to me, at least. :)

> >Orc
> >Modes & Rates of Movement:
> > Walk: 87 yds/BT
> > Run: 261 yds/BT
>
> How did you arrive at those numbers (87, 261)? Any special reason?

Its the human standard movement rates from p. 131 of the
main book. I didn't see the orcs as being any slower or faster than
normal humans of their P Trait.

> >Suscep^biliês: Nil
>
> Why did you take out the Iron Allergy? Personally, I like it. The HP's in my
> group s^ll haven't found out why all the orcs they capture, put in chains
> and keep locked up behind bars keep geing ill and dying. They're feeding
> them all kinds of things to keep them healthy, but it just doesn't work. :)

Well, because I've removed the orc from the realm of Phaeree
in my campaign, and suscep^bility to iron is very much a
fey-thing. In my campaign, they're na^ve to the campaign world,
and evolved along next to humans, elves, etc.

> >Armor Scheme
> >(Typical Armor: Plate Mail Suit, Gauntlets, Hoguine, Boots,
> >Brassarts, Camail, Shield, Round (large))
>
> Is this the reason you took out the Iron suscep^bility? If not, what metal
> do you make the armor out of?

That's a lot of it. I imagine orcs as wearing thick plates
of steel or iron, with a lot of stone and iron architecture.
Besides, I don't see any reason to make them necessarily Phaeree
creatures.

> >Commentary & Descripôn:
>
> Lot of useful background. Great!

Thanks again :)

> Harsh society, by the way. The orcs that grow up this way should be quite a
> challenge to most human naôns, should the orcs get interested in their
> possesions and invade it.

Well, the problem comes from the fact that orcs ght
amongst themselves almost as much as they ght others. The only
thing that prevents the orcish naôn from falling into chaos is the
direc^ves of the Dhalzakar.

> >whatever fashion suits its condiôn. Some homes of the older clans
> >are decorated with literally thousands of the skulls of the dead.
> >Orcish tradiôn holds that these skulls are a connecôn of the
> >deceased to later generaôns, and that they watch and judge the
> >acôns of the living through them. There is apparently some truth
> >to this belief, as an orcish spirit cannot be summoned by the use of
> >Heka without the presence of the skull of the deceased.
>
> Have you also done work on the Hobbits? The are not described in Mythus, as
> are Dwarves, Gnomes, and Elves.

Actually, I'll be doing work on many various races in the
near future, as I have the ^me. I absolutely loved the Mythus
rules system and a great deal of the background, but the mythology
behind it (meaning the monsters and world involved) seemed to be a
likle too 'realis^c' in nature, and realis^c mythology rarely
makes for good gaming material, as is. At least, in my opinion.

Lucifer >:}

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 20:58:05 -0400

Lucifer >:}

I won't comment on your armor types since dierent worlds have
dierent needs and
capabiliês (suce to say that I severely limit plate and some other metal
armor since its historical development was, in large part, a response to
gunpowder--but that's another debate), or the K/S areas (also will vary, but
yours are good). The same applies to weapons. They always have a social and
cultural context in addiôn to any u^litarian purpose (i.e. broadswords are
for use against plate armor. If no plate exists, you won't have broadswords.
Another obvious example is that a city-born part-^me miliâ member will
more likely use a crossbow or a pole-arm much more so than than a
strength-bow or a sword. The former are easy to use, take advantage of the
city's ar^san capability to make them, and do not require years of training
like
the laker weapons). Ok, sorry about the lecture, but in my world [not
Aerth], the Orcs are essenâlly Steppe horsemen, therefore no broadswords.
It obviously suits you to let them have them, so that's ne.
So, aver all that, I only have two comments. First, I would say
"gene^cally" inclined towards thick, muscular bodies, rather than racially
inclined. Especially as Orcs seem to be mul^-ethnic, or at least
mul^-cultural, and "race" being loaded with such baggage. Two, it seems odd
that divorce would be so easy in a society based on very close kin
relaônships. With extended families, mul^ple coming-of-age rituals, and
the familial loyalty you describe, divorce should instead be very hard.
Otherwise, very good.

Tim Francis
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 21:34:08 EDT
Subject: The newest version of the Armor program

Version 1.2 is up at members.aol.com/noc^fer/progs. It
xes the problem with disappearing shoulder gear. Btw, the Salade
w/ Mentonniere (spelled right this ^me) covers both categories 2
(helmet) and 11 (gorget), _not_ shoulders, as I was guessing when
away from my books. Sorry for the confusion. :)
Anyways, as always, if you nd any more bugs, drop me a
line or post it to the list. I'll try to x them as fast as I can
:)

Lucifer >:}

p.s. Thanks to Paul Wocken for poin^ng out the problem with
the disappearing shoulder protecôn, btw. Much appreciated.

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 21:55:41 EDT
In-Reply-To: <960502205805_526859205@emout09.mail.aol.com>; from "Timothy L.
Francis" at May 2, 96 8:58 pm

> I won't comment on your armor types since dierent worlds have
> dierent needs and
> capabiliês (suce to say that I severely limit plate and some other metal
> armor since its historical development was, in large part, a response to
> gunpowder--but that's another debate), or the K/S areas (also will vary, but
> yours are good). The same applies to weapons. They always have a social and
> cultural context in addiôn to any u^litarian purpose (i.e. broadswords are
> for use against plate armor. If no plate exists, you won't have broadswords.
> Another obvious example is that a city-born part-^me miliâ member will
> more likely use a crossbow or a pole-arm much more so than than a
> strength-bow or a sword. The former are easy to use, take advantage of the
> city's ar^san capability to make them, and do not require years of training
> like
> the laker weapons). Ok, sorry about the lecture, but in my world [not
> Aerth], the Orcs are essenâlly Steppe horsemen, therefore no broadswords.
> It obviously suits you to let them have them, so that's ne.

On my own world, orcs are the excepôn to the rule, not the
rule, as far as wearing heavy armor goes (btw, remember it's not a
Plate Suit, but merely Plate Mail, which was around far before the
rearm [since Ancient Rome, at least, if not earlier]). Though my
orc does have detailed knowledge of weapon creaôn, most probably
wouldn't know much about how to make a crossbow, since they would
consider it the height of cowardice to use such a simple and quick
weapon, unless absolutely necessary. I knew I was treading close
towards making them something of a Mongoloid culture, and that's
something I wanted to avoid, hence the propensity towards close
range weapons, which reduces their eld combat eec^veness greatly,
to the level of a hobilar. They're able warriors, and fantas^c
tac^cians, but they're constrained just as much by tradiôn as
every other culture has been.
I do appreciate you keeping an open mind about things, it's
comfor^ng. Needless to say, I don't think there is anything wrong
with having your orcs being Mongolish steppe warriors (the rst
adjec^ve there, being mine...I do realize there were many cultures
that were steppe warriors :) ), it's just a direcôn I was trying
to avoid :)

> So, aver all that, I only have two comments. First, I would say
> "gene^cally" inclined towards thick, muscular bodies, rather than racially
> inclined. Especially as Orcs seem to be mul^-ethnic, or at least
> mul^-cultural, and "race" being loaded with such baggage.
>Two, it seems odd

Well, I did consider that par^cular word choice as I was
typing it. I decided to go with 'racially' to avoid establishing
that the scien^c concept of gene^cs was existent in my world.
Btw, the orcs are mul^-ethnic and mul^-cultural only in that it is
vaguely possible for crossbreeds to become a prominent part of
society. They do have racial hatreds (especially towards elves) and
believe themselves to be the superior race. :)

> that divorce would be so easy in a society based on very close kin
> relaônships. With extended families, mul^ple coming-of-age rituals, and
> the familial loyalty you describe, divorce should instead be very hard.

*nod* This was a tough decision. I decided to go with the
idea of an easy divorce because of the size of the marital group,
and because one could s^ll marry another of one's clan and remain in
good standing with the clan. Basically, I wanted the orcish concept
of marriage to be much looser than that of human socieês, to
explain, in sociological terms, why rape may have been more probable
from orcish enemies than human ones during ^mes of war (this isn't
meant to be a real world excuse for rape...I'll never open that can
of worms and, besides, I don't believe there is a valid excuse...but
I felt that an orcish society with philosophic thought would have to
have social pressures and mores that would permit a looser
interpretaôn of when orcs can have sex).

> Otherwise, very good.

Thanks for you comments, both the construc^ve cri^cism and
compliments. To be honest, my decision about the weapons and armor
types were more intui^ve on my part, and I will be a likle more
conscious of those decisions in the future.

Lucifer >:}

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 23:07:43 -0400
Subject: Re: The Lost Pantheons
In-Reply-To: <v01520d00adae44a080c8@[206.109.96.129]>

On Thu, 2 May 1996, Tom wrote:

> Someone wrote a while ago wondering what others had done on the society and
> pantheons of the Subterranean cultures. I would like to repose the
> quesôn and further it by asking, what are others doing about Phaeree
> religions?

Um. Hang on a sec.....

RYAN SNEAD: IGNORE THE REST OF THIS POST
(sorry..... He's a player in my game :-) )

Okay, with that out of the way..... When the party managed to translate
some Goblin religious wri^ngs, I borrowed the name of Maglubiyet (AD&D
DDG). If other situaôns had arisen, I would probably have lived the
other monsters' pantheons as well (Lolth et al. for the Drow), simply
because I haven't had ^me to do them on my own.

However, these pantheons are *not* necessarily a good choice, and the
en^re Goblin race (for instance) would probably follow dierent gods.
In fact, most tribes of Goblins and Orcs (again, for example) would
likely follow their own patron god or goddess. The Monster Mythology
book for AD&D (or the original DDG and Unearthed Arcana) would probably
serve as guidelines of sorts. Others with some form of contact with
AErth might even worship corrupted versions of human deiês (say, a
blood-thirsty, foe-ea^ng, debased Mars or Thor).

My personal long-^me favorite (and about the only redeeming quality of
the Elenium, BTW) pantheon was used by David Eddings in the Elenium and
Tamuli: the Troll-Gods. There are ve and only ve:
Name God of
Ghnomb Eat (hunger/food)
Ghworg Kill
Khwaj Fire (including sun & warmth)
Schlee Ice (including weather (trolls are northern creatures))
Zoka Lust (and procreaôn and all that entails)

If Trolls ever needed a faith, that's who I would use :-)

> Wiggleheads are another excepôn. These creatures strike me as agnos^cs.
> They might be far to intellectual to follow gods. However, I haven't
> checked out the Besâry recently, so I could be very wrong.

Nah. Consider that even in the intellectual circles on Earth, faith in
a deital inuence of some sort is strong, even if it is in the form of
Deism or a similar 'abstract' faith. The wiggleheads would almost
certainly pay lip service (or more) to some form of spirituality.
Perhaps they're all on their way to becoming Enlightened Beings or some such?

> Now, onto Phaeree. These beings are far too numerous and intermixed for
> mul^ple pantheons (the ambiôus guy who wants to go that way has my best
> wishes. :). Also, there is likle to no menôn of faerie gods in
> folklore. The excepôn to this appears to be the Tuatha de Danua(sp?).

Tuatha de Danaan

> These irish faeries are usually portrayed as superior to the rest (and they
> are strangely absent from the Seelie races in EoAe). Could these beings be
> "living gods" of sorts?

GURPS Cel^c Myth wants to treat them as demigods, on par with Supers in
loose terms of power. Not dis-similar to the major gures in Finnish
(er, Kalevalan) mythology.

Anyways, it's late, and I'm rambling.

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 00:10:53 +0100
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Ultra-Vital vs. Super-Vital shot to the groin

>-------------------->Forwarded message:
>From: jstanton@qualcomm.com (John J. Stanton)
>To: MYTHUS-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU
>CC: ironbrand@eworld.com
>Date: 96-05-02 13:31:55 EDT
>
>>(She was a likle messed in the head at the ^me.) Anyhow, she
>>slided up to him and kicked him in the jewels three ^mes. Then,
>>as he was writhing on the ground in pain, she con^nued to rack him >ve
>>more ^mes.
>
>Was this before or aver she became president of TSR?

All I can say is...

SLAM!

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 00:27:46 +0100

>RYAN SNEAD: IGNORE THE REST OF THIS POST
>(sorry..... He's a player in my game :-) )
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Okay, with that out of the way..... When the party managed to translate
>some Goblin religious wri^ngs, I borrowed the name of Maglubiyet (AD&D
>DDG). If other situaôns had arisen, I would probably have lived the
>other monsters' pantheons as well (Lolth et al. for the Drow), simply
>because I haven't had ^me to do them on my own.
>
It is easier considering that most of the legwork is done for these
individuals. However, I have a growing aversion to anything TSR related.
I like most of what Roger Moore did, but I am simply trying to distance
myself from AD&D. S^ll, if pressed for ^me.

>My personal long-^me favorite (and about the only redeeming quality of
>the Elenium, BTW) pantheon was used by David Eddings in the Elenium and
>Tamuli: the Troll-Gods. There are ve and only ve:
>Name God of
>Ghnomb Eat (hunger/food)
>Ghworg Kill
>Khwaj Fire (including sun & warmth)
>Schlee Ice (including weather (trolls are northern creatures))
>Zoka Lust (and procreaôn and all that entails)
>
>If Trolls ever needed a faith, that's who I would use :-)
>
I like those books, too! And the Troll gods from the Eleium are denately
a brutal and meddling bunch. Makes me wonder if the Phaeree Pantheons
would have the same restricôns as the Aerth based ones (I would say no).

What I will probably end up doing is por^ng over the Elven Virtues and
Vices from my former game and make them a overwhelming pantheon to most of
the more civilized races of Phaeree. There are seven Virtues and seven
Vice, and in all, they form a very interes^ng mix. They worked well in my
Aedonn campaign and would probably work just as well on my Aerth game.
S^ll, cults to other beings would not be unheard of. These pantheons
would be something to consider.

>> Now, onto Phaeree. These beings are far too numerous and intermixed for
>> mul^ple pantheons (the ambiôus guy who wants to go that way has my best
>> wishes. :). Also, there is likle to no menôn of faerie gods in
>> folklore. The excepôn to this appears to be the Tuatha de Danua(sp?).
>
>Tuatha de Danaan
>
>> These irish faeries are usually portrayed as superior to the rest (and they
>> are strangely absent from the Seelie races in EoAe). Could these beings be
>> "living gods" of sorts?
>
>GURPS Cel^c Myth wants to treat them as demigods, on par with Supers in
>loose terms of power. Not dis-similar to the major gures in Finnish
>(er, Kalevalan) mythology.
>
I'm working from Castle Falkenstein where the Tuatha de Danaan are the
original faeries, and the only ones in existance with spellcas^ng
capability. Of course, the problem with using these folks is that they are
from one regional folklore. To spread them across the whole of Phaeree
would be too simplis^c.

>Anyways, it's late, and I'm rambling.
>
>->Mike Phillips, mike@lawlib.wm.edu | DR WHO: The Earth is
>Mythus: hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/ | Out of Time!
>Home page: hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/ | FOX May 14, 7:00pm

Sleep...now.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 03:04:52 -0400
Subject: Races

Hello all,
Just wondering, has anyone doen any work on changing the races in Mythus
so that they are no longer limited to their racial vocaôn? Any ^ps on
this project would be most appreciated.

Thanks,

Jason
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 13:47:52 +0100
Subject: Re: Races

Are you sure that you need to change the races away from ethnic
vocaôns? Why even both using them? Surely you could play a
character of any vocaôn and of any race... just make sure that the
player knows enough about your campaign world so that they can create
the correct "avour" of character. One-on-one creaôn would also
make it easier.

Sorry, just a thought.

Cheers
--MARK


"Then we'll have what we've only dreamed about...

a country of our oone." (scoish acent)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 10:44:44 -0400
In-Reply-To: <v01520d01adaef2d09651@[206.109.96.173]>

Just my 2 more cents:

> >My personal long-^me favorite (and about the only redeeming quality of
> >the Elenium, BTW) pantheon was used by David Eddings in the Elenium and
> >Tamuli: the Troll-Gods. There are ve and only ve:
> >Name God of
> >Ghnomb Eat (hunger/food)
> >Ghworg Kill
> >Khwaj Fire (including sun & warmth)
> >Schlee Ice (including weather (trolls are northern creatures))
> >Zoka Lust (and procreaôn and all that entails)

Hmmm..I wonder what Mike didn't like.

> I like those books, too! And the Troll gods from the Eleium are denately
> a brutal and meddling bunch. Makes me wonder if the Phaeree Pantheons
> would have the same restricôns as the Aerth based ones (I would say no).

Tom, they didn't really meddle all that much except that Sparhawk was
Anakha (they were real scared of him) and one of the trolls who hung out
with Ulath and Tynian was a high priest.

My par^cular favorite moment concerning the wondeful troll gods (yeah,
I'm puing them in my planet!) was when Khwaj decided to burn some of
the villains for eternity in "No Time". It was frightening. In fact,
I'd use that. :)

Anyway, I think all of you worried about running a Phaeree related game
would only have to come up with one or two gods--just the ones involved
in the current situaôn. Save yourself a lot of work... :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 10:49:55 -0400

Subject: Re: Races
X-To: "M.A.Trickek" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
In-Reply-To: <2EE72F94850@daisy.le.ac.uk>

MARK ^cked away:
> Are you sure that you need to change the races away from ethnic
> vocaôns? Why even both using them? Surely you could play a
> character of any vocaôn and of any race... just make sure that the
> player knows enough about your campaign world so that they can create
> the correct "avour" of character. One-on-one creaôn would also
> make it easier.
>
> Sorry, just a thought.

Well, alright, we'll forgive you this ^me. Just don't let it happen
again... :)

Make your own races! A beker word: Species. Races seem to be dierent
kinds of the same species. Anyway, here's how you do it:

Each race (Specie) gets bonuses and penalês to ATTRIBUTES (make 'em
up. For instance, Orcs would gain PM and lose MR probably)

Each race should have some limits on what sorts of Vocaôns they can
follow. Or, beker yet, suggesôns. Also, include restricôns on K/S
Areas...

Then, you can add one or more racial quirks and counterquirks (like,
Elves can see in low light, but are very light, and are more easily
knocked around--Roll vs. PM at Hard whenever a SV or UV hit is taken).
It's simple. Just be crea^ve.

And that's about it. It hasn't been too dicult for me to do. Maybe
I'll forward some of my info if it ever gets to a presentable form... :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 10:45:21 +0100
Subject: Re: Races

>MARK ^cked away:

>> Are you sure that you need to change the races away from ethnic
>> vocaôns? Why even both using them? Surely you could play a
>> character of any vocaôn and of any race... just make sure that the
>> player knows enough about your campaign world so that they can create
>> the correct "avour" of character. One-on-one creaôn would also
>> make it easier.
>>
>> Sorry, just a thought.
>
>Well, alright, we'll forgive you this ^me. Just don't let it happen
>again... :)
>
>Make your own races! A beker word: Species. Races seem to be dierent
>kinds of the same species. Anyway, here's how you do it:
>
>Each race (Specie) gets bonuses and penalês to ATTRIBUTES (make 'em
>up. For instance, Orcs would gain PM and lose MR probably)
>
This is exactly how I've worked my non-human races before. I found it made
them more appealing to the players.

>Each race should have some limits on what sorts of Vocaôns they can
>follow. Or, beker yet, suggesôns. Also, include restricôns on K/S
>Areas...
>
I suggest limi^ng things to about 4 principle Vocaôns, unless the race
is _extremely_ important and varied. You can cut your workload by
modiying many of the exis^ng Vocaôns to t the new race.

>Then, you can add one or more racial quirks and counterquirks (like,
>Elves can see in low light, but are very light, and are more easily
>knocked around--Roll vs. PM at Hard whenever a SV or UV hit is taken).
>It's simple. Just be crea^ve.
>
Of course.

>And that's about it. It hasn't been too dicult for me to do. Maybe
>I'll forward some of my info if it ever gets to a presentable form... :)
>
I suppose in the end it really comes down to the campaign. If you're
running a human-centric game, then ethnic vocaôns aren't a bad idea,
especially if there are tons of possible ethnic Vocaôns, such as with
Aerth (as presented). However, if you prefer a more high fantasy mix, then
keep pumping out races. The easiest way to do this would be to ask the
player what kind of elf, dwarf, raszi, he wanted to play and design a
Vocaônal package for him specically. Just catalog these away and
eventually you'll have gold. Some ethnic groups should probably be
reserved to one Vocaôn, especially if they don't make up a major part in
the game. In my campaign, Weretherios have several Vocaôns, but they are
specic to each animal type (bear, fox, lynx, etc.). Others, like the
Kithe and the Kobold, were kept at one Vocaôn because they were
introduced to the world without a great deal of inspired culturalism,
though the background and history of these folks worked great.

>Jesse
>
Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 12:16:17 -0400

>Well, I am not looking for any defence of Mythus post; in fact, I am a AD&D
>gamer being lured by Mythus. What I actually need is a defence for AD&D; but
>in this list I am looking for a fair judgment. There must be someone that
>switched games somewhere and knows both preky well ( that you, Lucifer ? )

I guess I know both games preky well. I played AD&D for 12 years straight,
and then switched over to Mythus a couple years ago.

I'm not really sure AD&D needs a defense. It's a good game. Sure, a lot of
the suppliments coming out now are stupid and close to contentless (I quit
buying TSR products... I can't remember how many years ago), but that
doesn't mean that the core game isn't a good one. You will hear people on
this list rag on one feature or another of the game, but don't take these as
fundamental faults of AD&D. They don't make it unplayable, they are just
areas where Mythus does a beker job.
There are also areas where AD&D has advantages: it's simpler, which
makes it more accessible to people new to gaming. It also ts many people's
needs. Most 14 year olds don't want the kind of complexity and rich detail
that Mythus allows. They just want to get out there and slay the dragon with
their +10 sword of super-manliness and stare at the cover art of buxom babes
in iron-plated string bikinis. I don't mean this as nega^vely as it might
sound. Aver all, I did play the game for many years.
The best way to think of the two games in the end may be to look at
their history. Mythus was originally intended (from what I have heard on
this list) as AD&D II. It was the next stage of development for the fantasy
role playing game as Gary Gygax saw it. It sacriced some features of AD&D
that people liked to make substanâl improvements in other areas. Some
people may be very akached to those features and so like AD&D beker. I
don't. I think of Mythus as fantasy role-playing for mature gamers, people
who got ^red of having everyone they meet t into one of ve basic labor
unions that dened almost their en^re existence. But some people like a
simple fantasy life...

Is this the kind of reply you were looking for?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 11:27:57 -0400

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960503103858.3691A-100000@orichalc.acsu.bualo.edu>

On Fri, 3 May 1996, Jesse wrote:

> Just my 2 more cents:
>
> > >My personal long-^me favorite (and about the only redeeming quality of
> > >the Elenium, BTW) pantheon was used by David Eddings in the Elenium and
> > >Tamuli: the Troll-Gods. There are ve and only ve:
> > >Name God of
> > >Ghnomb Eat (hunger/food)
> > >Ghworg Kill
> > >Khwaj Fire (including sun & warmth)
> > >Schlee Ice (including weather (trolls are northern creatures))
> > >Zoka Lust (and procreaôn and all that entails)
>
> Hmmm..I wonder what Mike didn't like.

Um, warmed-over character stereotypes? Incredibly over-done story?
Inane dialog that lost its humor value around the 2nd book of the
Belgariad (if it ever had any)? An author reaching for what very much
exceeds his grasp and not coming even close? (There aren't half a dozen
authors who could do a *good* job with as many characters/threads as he
tries to do and fails) However, I will refrain from further literary
aspersions, it's not relevant to the list.(*)

The Eddings books would have made good campaign material, though, and in
their realizaôn (compare, say, the world of the Belgariad to that of
the Elenium -- he obviously learned a *lot* in wri^ng the Belgariad,
save only that a 'save the world.....again' plot is, quite frankly,
boring; oops, I said I wouldn't do that) they demonstrate many of the
pialls of world design. The religion in the Belgariad is symbolic, not
understood well, cheap, and peripheral. Not to menôn remarkably
universal, and lacking in many 'common' areas of human mythology.

Then look at the much more carefully craved mythology of the Elenium
(ignore the Tamuli): two warring churches with two *dierent* bases for
Theology, plus peripheral religions (such as the oh-so-wonderful
Troll-Gods, and the Elder Gods of Styricum).

I'll shut up about this now before I dig myself into a big hole :-)

> > I like those books, too! And the Troll gods from the Eleium are denately
> > a brutal and meddling bunch. Makes me wonder if the Phaeree Pantheons
> > would have the same restricôns as the Aerth based ones (I would say no).
>
> Tom, they didn't really meddle all that much except that Sparhawk was
> Anakha (they were real scared of him) and one of the trolls who hung out
> with Ulath and Tynian was a high priest.

Um, the Troll-Gods were no more or less meddlesome than, say, Aphrael ;-)
Certain gods in the Elenium were prone to meddle a lot (Aphrael, Azash,
the Troll-Gods, the Delphae god (Eraemus?)), and others (the Tamuli gods,
the Elene god) were prone to be quite distant. It seemed like a
combinaôn of personal whim and temperament.

The Troll-Gods were brutal, harsh, savage, and complete. In ve gods,
he summed up more than enough mythology to keep any culture along their
lines happy :-)

> Anyway, I think all of you worried about running a Phaeree related game
> would only have to come up with one or two gods--just the ones involved
> in the current situaôn. Save yourself a lot of work... :)

Absolutely! I've borrowed as need be, but there has been no reason to do
more.

One *might* want to consider some big-name Phaeree to be demigods (or
more) of their respec^ve races: for instance, Oberon and Titania might
be the King and Queen as well as the Gods of certain Fey. Robin
Goodfellow could well be the trickster god (oh, dear). Perhaps Chiron
would be the Centaur god of Wisdom.

Mike Phillips, mike@lawlib.wm.edu

(*)A document relevant to most JM's, however, would be 'The Crav of the
Adventure', an excellent collecton of essays by Graham Nelson. IT WAS
NOT WRITTEN WITH ROLEPLAYING IN MIND, it was wriken for Interac^ve
Ficôn (Infocom-esque games). The document is available from:
vp://vp.gmd.de/if-archive/info/Crav.of.Adventure.txt
There are many good points made which are *also* applicable to wri^ng
côn *and* to craving adventures for your players.

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 09:55:00 PDT

Hmmm. Lucifer, did you actually rpelace ARMOR.ZIP already? Because I
downloaded it again, installed it and ran it and it s^ll will not let me
have shoulder protecôn with head protecôn. I also found out that it
won't let me have a gorget with a helm (used the simple helmet entry) or
shoulder protecôn. Basically, the three areas seem to be excluding use of
armor from the others. I can now have arm protecôn and shoulder
protecôn without losing one or the other. Maybe the old version is s^ll
there?

Paul Wocken
scg@wsdot.wa.gov
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 13:33:52 EDT
In-Reply-To: <318A3B4E@HQMAILHUB.WSDOT.WA.GOV>; from "Paul Wocken" at May 3,
96 9:55 am

> Hmmm. Lucifer, did you actually rpelace ARMOR.ZIP already? Because I
> downloaded it again, installed it and ran it and it s^ll will not let me
> have shoulder protecôn with head protecôn. I also found out that it
> won't let me have a gorget with a helm (used the simple helmet entry) or
> shoulder protecôn. Basically, the three areas seem to be excluding use of
> armor from the others. I can now have arm protecôn and shoulder
> protecôn without losing one or the other. Maybe the old version is s^ll
> there?

Grrrr...v. 1.3 due out soon. :(

Lucifer >:}

p.s. Yes, this is the rst ^me I've tried to publish a
program. Yes, I'm s^ll a neophyte. Yes, I'll eventually get it
right :)

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 15:11:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Races

In a message dated 96-05-03 10:51:20 EDT, Jesse Wrote:

>Elves can see in low light, but are very light, and are more easily
>knocked around--Roll vs. PM at Hard whenever a SV or UV hit is taken).
>It's simple.

This of course assumes that the SV or UV is *Harder* than a NV or V hit, not
always true. It's one of those situaônal things.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 12:39:00 PDT
Subject: Re: Armor

Hi, Lucifer.

Have paênce. It is s^ll a worthy bit of programming. I have checked it
out more and the only problems seem to be with the Gorget, Helmet, Shoulder
triad being exclusive with each other. I do have a suggesôn however. In
the totals, it would be nice if you would also do the average armor values
for the dierent damage types (i.e average each column) and displayed that
as the bokom line of teh totals. Not necessary but wouldbe nice.

Paul Wocken
scg@wsdot.wa.gov
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 19:38:01 -0400
From: William J Mar^n <wmar^n@HUBCAP.CLEMSON.EDU>
Subject: Cthulhu-Mythus

I remember some talk on this list about puing a conversion together for
Chaosium's _Call of Cthulhu_. Does anyone know if any of this stu was
published anywhere on the net?

Bill
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 14:43:52 +0200
Subject: Re: Dweomercrav study rules

At 12:07 2-05-96 +0100, you wrote:
>Here is the drav of some rules I've drawn up to try and curb the abuse
>done in the past to the K/S system, especially in the area of
>Dweomercraev. I've had one too many HPs designed with nearly all the
>schools accounted for (do you hear me Jade? :). I'd like to hear what the
>rest of you think.

I think this is a good idea to curb the abuse of Dweomercraev. However, I
think your proposal should be akenuated somewhat. My main cri^que is the
^me it takes to study and learn Magick. And a likle the conict between
dierent Schools of Magick.

>such limitaôns. In fact, since dweomercr=E6v is both a magickal and
>intellectual pursuit, it is not surprising that many seek to master more
>than one discipline of that study. However, such mastery, even at
>minuscule levels, requires intense study. There is no such thing as a self
>taught magi. The Laws of Magick and there applicaôn is a great deal more
>than studying a body of cas^ngs.

Explain why there are no self taught magi?=20
What I know about university is that formal study only teaches one
up ^ll e.g. masters level (MSc). The last year one spends doing research
under guidance (see further), but acquires knowledge independently. Mostly
at the university where one studies, but quite oven students nd a place
outside university e.g. at an ins^tuôn.=20
Aver a masters degree (=3D 26-28 years of age), one can con^nue for a PhD
degree. Work for a PhD can be done at a university (mostly for young people,
=3D up to 32 years of age), but it is not mandatory (bright students and
people with advanced carreers). Geing a mastersdegree takes circa 24 years
to nish. That's 5 years shorter than you propose. Likewise, a PhD study
takes max. 28 years. That's 22 years shorter than you propose.
Transla^ng this to the Mythus Fantasy seing, a student of magic
would study at an ins^tuôn say up ^ll a STEEP of 20-25. Thereaver (s)he
could con^nue up ^ll master level either in this par^cular ins^tuôn,
or nd a dierent tutor who will guide him/her elsewhere. In this ^me
outside an ins^tuôn a HP can further his/her STEEP by selfstudy and
spell-research, accompanied by frequent communicaôn and consultaôn with
other mages. However, doing such besides adventuring, makes progress much
slower of course :)
Further, it is not unknown to pursue completely dierent studies at
the same ^me. I think one can compare studying the sharply contras^ng
Black and White schools of magick to studying Sciences and Law. Again, this
is not uncommon in real life.

> Now, the Dangerous Journeys RPG prides itself on its open design of
>Heroic Personas. The purpose of these rules is by no means meant to limit
>the beginning Persona. They are simply meant to impliment a certain amount
>of realism to Dweomercr=E6ver HPs. These rules should be applied to both=
to
>the Magick and Dweomercr=E6v (and its sub-areas) K/S Areas.

I think your proposal is a likle too restric^ve.=20
Besides, which star^ng HP has iniâl STEEPS in e.g. General, Black *and*
White Schools all over 40? I've never encountered such a HP. Even if a HP
would have such high iniâl STEEPs, the character should be quite=
unbalanced.

>(This is considering JMs allow such things, for it really makes no sense
>other than as a vehicle for power-hunger PLAYERS to gain more cas^ngs or
>control more Heka Reservoirs.) However, one persons judgement is not alway
>alike to anothers, so these rules are aimed at handling such desires in a
>realis^c way as opposed to simply slapping restricôns on the game
>system.

I think that restric^ng the amount of known and recallable cas^ngs is much
easier, while being not so restric^ve to the player/HP. This way, the HP
will have to lug around all his precious tomes (each over 10 kBUCs and at
least 2.5 kg). Think about his/her encumbrance and the chance that something
happens to one or more of these tomes. Shear dissaster to the HP >8-D=20

> When a player creates a HP who is a student of more than one school of
>magick, the JM should see to it that the HP's age reects his degree of
>knowledge and study in the areas beyond the rst.
>
>STEEP Points Descripôn Min. Study (yrs.)
>00 No real knowledge/skill. None
>01-10 Rudimentary knowledge/skill only 1
>11-15 Novice-level study. Trainee Skill 2
>16-20 Lower-intermediate skill. 4
>21-25 Middle-intermediate skill. 6
>26-30 Upper-intermediate skill. 12
>31-35 Full, professional competence. 16 =20
>36-40 Above-average professional competence. 20 18 proposed
>41-50 Expert-level knowledge 25 21 proposed
>51-60 Master-level knowledge. 30 24 proposed
>61-80 Pioneer-level knowledge and mastery. 50 28 to * proposed
>81-90 Grand master of eld. * =20
>91+ Ultra-genius ranking. * =20
>
>* This level of skill may not be acquired through academic study. Most who
>reach this degree of exper^se do so through independent research and
>study.

For realism, I think the levels of exper^se that are reached through
independent research and study should from 61 and up.

Cheers,

Harold Stringer
biopharm@xs4all.nl
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 14:44:02 +0200


At 20:58 2-05-96 -0400, you wrote:
>Lucifer >:}
>
>dierent needs and
>capabiliês (suce to say that I severely limit plate and some other metal
>armor since its historical development was, in large part, a response to
>gunpowder--but that's another debate), or the K/S areas (also will vary, but

I didn't know this? Does plate stop a bullet from a musket?

> So, aver all that, I only have two comments. First, I would say
>"gene^cally" inclined towards thick, muscular bodies, rather than racially
>inclined. Especially as Orcs seem to be mul^-ethnic, or at least
>mul^-cultural, and "race" being loaded with such baggage.

Good point.

>Two, it seems odd
>that divorce would be so easy in a society based on very close kin
>relaônships. With extended families, mul^ple coming-of-age rituals, and
>the familial loyalty you describe, divorce should instead be very hard.

I don't agree. Line-marriages have advantages and disadvantages. Since in a
line-marriage in principle lasts forever, it should be possible to divorce
or split of part of the family. Otherwise, a family most probably will grow
to impossible proporôns where agreement on partners would be virtually
impossible. A line-marriage could acquire great wealth, and such a group
would be highly desirable for young orcs. (Personally, I would be strongly
in favour for such type of marriage. Not in the least because it is that
these hevy succesion-duês no longer apply. ;) No problems nding
babysikers.
By the way, R.A. Heinlein has wriken a novel in which such marriages feature.

Harold Stringer
_____________________________________________________________________

Work: Private:
1315 KT Almere Tel/Fax +31 - (0)36 53 64 798
The Netherlands
Tel +31 - (0)36 53 43 445
Fax +31 - (0)36 53 47 265


_____________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 15:15:08 EDT
Subject: Gunpowder and armor (was Re: The Orc)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19960504144831.485776ee@xs4all.nl>; from "Harold
Stringer, Ridascreen-Biopharm B.V." at May 4, 96 2:44 pm

> > I won't comment on your armor types since dierent worlds have
> >dierent needs and
> >capabiliês (suce to say that I severely limit plate and some other metal
> >armor since its historical development was, in large part, a response to
> >gunpowder--but that's another debate), or the K/S areas (also will vary, but
>
> I didn't know this? Does plate stop a bullet from a musket?

Well, as he said, that's another debate...:)
In the historical community, there are at least two
dierent poles around which most medieval historians revolve. Some
prefer to believe that armor develops to match innovaôns in
weapons, and some choose to believe that weapons develop to match
innovaôns in armor. If you believe the laker, pikes, though
understood in theory by the ancient romans, were never used by them
because they never really came to ght horsemen (in fact, even when
their armies were mostly horsemen, they s^ll fought like infantry),
were developed to defend against powerful armored horsement.
Longbows were perfected to ght against infantry and, to some
extent, horsemen. Crossbows were perfected to ght from within
castles. Guns were created to defeat the newest plate armors. If
you believe the former, the armor was created to protect against
guns. Since most of this stu comes into being almost
simultaneously, there's really no right way to say which is which.
In this case, I prefer to go with the theory that the armor
had an eect on the weapon, not the reverse, as the original poster
supported. Full plate was understood by many ancient cultures, but
they just weren't convenient to use in warm climates. A form of it,
however, was used by the Roman standard bearers (who's name I can't
remember...either la^n for 'hawk' or 'lion'). The art was lost for
a while, or people could no longer aord it (depending upon which
theory of the decline of the Roman Empire you take), and not taken
up again un^l it developed fairly naturally. About the ^me that
it readched its apex, guns were also becoming popular, so some
support does exist to state that plate armor was created to defend
against guns.
However, when guns truly became the weapons of most armies,
around the 15th c. (i.e. Early Renaissance), armor protecôn began
to decline, because it reduced mobility without protec^ng very good
against gunpowder weapons (herein is the answer to your
quesôn...no, plate armor didn't do much to protect against
gunpowder weapons). By the 16th c., the best armor was likle more
than a half suit of plates covering the chest and a helmet. It was
simply tac^cally beker for a soldier to be able to move faster
than his enemy than be able to stand toe to toe against a weapon
that would just as likely kill him if he was wearing heavier armor.

> By the way, R.A. Heinlein has wriken a novel in which such marriages feature.

Figures someone else would have come up with it rst :(

Lucifer >:}

=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 14:58:55 -0700

I've just been reading through the list of Magickal stu at
hkp://www.umd.umich.edu/~roshi/Mythus/Magicaldevice, and the stu is cool,
but isn't a lot of it too powerful? Prac^cally every naôn has nuclear
level capability.

What do you guys think?

P.S. Is the list of items Teske made around somewhere? At cerebus??

Mike

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 16:52:11 -0700

Subject: Items
In-Reply-To: <199605042158.OAA24224@rho.ben2.ucla.edu> from "Chris Calvert" at
May 4, 96 02:58:55 pm

> I've just been reading through the list of Magickal stu at
> hkp://www.umd.umich.edu/~roshi/Mythus/Magicaldevice, and the stu is cool,
> but isn't a lot of it too powerful? Prac^cally every naôn has nuclear
> level capability.
>
> What do you guys think?

Well, way back when the items menôned in Epic of Aerth were rst
discussed on the list, someone (I forget who. Dave? John Troy?) did
menôn that they were in fact the 'Nukes' of that world. Open use of
one of them would risk another country opening up with one of theirs,
so they would be seldom used.

On the other hand, the project was to generate rumors about the
items. Stories have a way of growing as they are repeated, and
naôns would tend to exaggerate the abiliês of their greatest items
to insure that hos^le neighbors don't grow too bold.

As to what I think, I'm probably biased since I wrote a number of
them myself. There is quite a range in the power level of the various
magic items (inevitable since there were a number of contributors).
Some of them are probably too powerful if they were used frequently.
The answer in that case is to make sure the naôn in quesôn has
reasons _not_ to use the item, perhaps from fear of a devasta^ng
reprisal by its enemies.

> P.S. Is the list of items Teske made around somewhere? At cerebus??

Yep. A RTF le can be found at the new cerebus site in the Mythus
magic items directory, I believe.

Steven
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 19:36:18 -0400
In-Reply-To: <199605042158.OAA24224@rho.ben2.ucla.edu>

On Sat, 4 May 1996, Chris Calvert wrote:

> I've just been reading through the list of Magickal stu at
> hkp://www.umd.umich.edu/~roshi/Mythus/Magicaldevice, and the stu is cool,
> but isn't a lot of it too powerful? Prac^cally every naôn has nuclear
> level capability.
>
> What do you guys think?

Um, wasn't that the point of the legendary items in the rst place?
They *are* the equivalent of magickal nukes. Some tac^cal, some
strategic. Some would actually qualify as intercon^nental ballis^c
missiles, as a maker of fact.

Or should Excalibur be a wimpy likle +5 to BAC and +5 to damage weapon? ;-)

"REGARDING MAGICKAL DEVICES

"In the gazekeer lis^ngs, only names are given for such items, for the
exact nature of each is as much a state secret as are the sta^s^cs
regarding missiles, aircrav, etc., on Earth. Some general informaôn
on magickal items is given in the MYTHUS MAGICK book, and gamemasters
must each develop addiônal data as they see t, recalling that such
devices are very much part of the might of each state."
(Epic of AErth, p.28)

It would seem logical that an ordinary magic sword or elixir of healing
would *not* qualify as "part of the might" of any given naôn. In fact,
to consider such an item to be less than fairly common runs counter to
the magickal nature of AErth. I'm not saying every peasant ought to have
the equivalent of a sword +3 (to use another game's parlance; in Mythus
that would probably be sword, +15 to BAC and +15 to damage, or
something), but 'weaker' magic items are not really something that would
nd their way itno a world gazekeer like EoA.

Someone did point out that these items are apparently intended to be the
focus of campaigns, and should not be taken lightly. Something akin (I
should think) to Stormbringer, in Elric, in importance. Or, to bring in
another recent thread, Bhelliom, or the Orb of Aldur. Earth-shakering
(Aerth-shakering?) stu. Legendary stu. The sort of stu that if
country A brings it out and waves it about, country B will too, to
protect itself. Magickally Assured Destrucôn. Or something :-)

I think I'm losing it.....

> P.S. Is the list of items Teske made around somewhere? At cerebus??

hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/items/

That contains (a) the Item Rumors (html, Word 6, RTF, and PostScript) and
(b) a bunch of 'lower-level' items by John Troy (I think they all are).


=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 11:32:40 -0500
Subject: the heinlein book

>By the way, R.A. Heinlein has wriken a novel in which such marriages
>feature.

Its in The Moon is a harsh mistress, and its preky intres^ng but seems
kinda like a guy trying to convince his wife that his fooling around on
her is in her best interest: 'honey, you can do it too..." But then again
all Heinliens psychosexual stu reads like that.

**********************
On Earth and in the Air, in Water and in Fire,
the spirits are subservient to him,
His glance frightens and tames the wildest
beasts,
And even the an^-Chrisân must approach
him with awe...
-Hesse, the Journey to the East
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 19:18:38 -0400

Just a quick note about plate armor...it was developed as protecôn in melee
and from bows and crossbows...the advent of gunpwder is what made plate armor
obsolete...

I'm an armorer I know these things...

Bill

"Why for you put me in the cold cold ground?" Taz Dev
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 22:32:42 -0500
Subject: OP.Cartographer

In hopes of adding spice to any other Mythus Campaigns

I devised this as a basis for a contact and thought I would share for ideas
and contribuôn. :)

The Cartographer

Cartographer Mental 3-8 5

This OP is designed to be useful in the role of interpre^ng,
making, and designing maps, charts and other useful references to guide
and navigate by. It is primarily designed to ll out the contact
personas, however, an adventure hook to have a coastline mapped or have a
treasure map interpreted or copied could be rather interes^ng.
The areas to be charted in =C6rth would include, waters and coast
lines, overland terrain, and subterranean =C6rth. Suggesôns to specialize
to these areas will be menôned later as suggested bonus K/S areas. (Note
the deleôn of F=E6ry for obvious reasons, however, it could be a challenge
for someone with great heka capabiliês...and a great deal of paênce)
The vocaôn is for the most part a cross between a navigator and
an ar^st in hopes of reec^ng the Mythus genre. A few other K/S area
reect the need for this OP to be able to ll in the blanks when not all
the informaôn is provided (ie Logic and History), whereas other areas
account for the need for the Cartographer to take accurate notes and
journals.
Although this persona is not intended for HP status, it might be
possible and useful when traveling in uncharted areas to have this persona
traveling in a group. If this s the case, this author would suggest
choosing the bonus K/S areas very carefully.

Surveying/Topography 28 MRC
Mathema^cs 24 MMC
Prin^ng 24 SMC
Drawing 24 PNC
Navigaôn 24 AveMC
Geography/Foreign Lands 20 MMC
Travel 16 AvePC
Logic 12 MRC
Cryptography 12 AveMC
Astronomy 12 MMC
Pain^ng 12 SMC
History 8 MMC
=46oreign Language 8 MMC
Literature 4 MMC
Combat Hand Weapons 4 AvePC
Handiwork/Handicrav 4 PNC
Wri^ng Crea^ve 4 SMC

total 256

The Cartographer is not well adapted toward adventuring per say,
however, it could be a fun OP as a contact or someone to add a splash of
color to your campaign, and with appropriate bonus areas, could be a
crea^ve PC for someone who enjoys being a likle dierent.

Some suggested K/S areas might be:
Mental: Educaôn, Linguis^cs,
Physical: Hun^ng/ Tracking, Geology/ Mines and Mining, Boa^ng,
Seamanship, Speleology, Swimming/ Diving, Mountain Climbing, Subterranean
Orientaôn,
Spiritual: any.

With careful consideraôn and coordinaôn of the above, the
Cartographer could be specialized to sea or under ground mapping.
Otherwise your imaginaôn can be your limits to where this OP has
potenâl.

....Let me know if any one has any success or failior if they use it.

Thanks

AJ=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 07:29:00 -0400

In response to the Orc message from Lucifer >:}, I wrote...

> dierent needs and
> capabiliês (suce to say that I severely limit plate and some other
metal
> armor since its historical development was, in large part, a response to
> gunpowder--but that's another debate)

Several people responded, such as Harold Stringer, who said...

> I didn't know this? Does plate stop a bullet from a musket?

and...

>Just a quick note about plate armor...it was developed as protecôn in
melee
>and from bows and crossbows...the advent of gunpwder is what made plate
armor
>obsolete...
>
>I'm an armorer I know these things...
>
>Bill

I must say mea culpa. I misread Lucifer, who was talking about plate mail
pieces, and read it as plate armor. The laker, as developed in the 15th &
16th centuries, was designed to stop the hackebuk or arquebus in the same
manner as earlier, less sophis^cated versions were built-up to defeat
crossbows. Thanks for the check, Bill.

Tim
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 22:32:01 -0600
Subject: A BIG POST ON ALTERNATE RULES FOR MYTHUS

Hi, everyone... I've got a BIG POST here...

I'm opening up a Mush (Mul^ User Shared halucinaôn, or something like
that) in the near future... coding is almost done... and we'll be opening
our door to the Internet in the nearing future... a month or so -- seing
is a renaissance town.

Why menôn it? Well, I'm using Mythus as a base for the game's systems.

The system is a hybrid of the Basic and Advanced rules... more of the later
than the former... and I'd like to post up a summary here of how the system
is put together for discussion.

LEGALESE
============================================================================
Original System is the creaôn of Gary Gygax, bought out by TSR.

This use (in a Mush) cons^tutes a typical applicaôn of these rules. Use
of them
here, and the rewri^ng/paraphrasing of same, is not intended as a
infringement of copyrights, but is instead an example of use in exactly
the way the work was originally intended: to run a game.
============================================================================

STATS:

Well, rst o, the stats look like this:

============================================================================
Character Sta^s^cs for Jacob
============================================================================
MIND: 90 BODY: 96 SOUL: 92
Memory: 43 Muscle: 53 Will: 41
Reason: 47 Coord.: 43 Intuiôn: 51
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
MIND, BODY, and SOUL are derived from their subordinate Akributes, which
determined by rolls of 6d6 + 24. 10 points can then be distributed between
the six stats.

You should recognize alot of this stu.

Mind:
This number represents the sum total of all one's Mental resources, as well
as the amount of Mind Damage one can sustain before becoming a mindless
vegetable.

Memory: This is the Mind Akribute the represents the ability of you Persona
to learn and remember. Those with higher numbers here are brighter and
tend to do beker with studies, provided they aren't lazy!
Reason: This represents the persona's ability to think logically and
gure things out. Those with higher scores here are likely to be
very cunning, clever, and cravy.

Body:
This TRAIT represents the sum total of all of one's Physical resources, as well
as the amount of Body Damage one can sustain before dying.

Muscle: This is a Akribute which shows just how powerful your persona is.
Persona's with higher scores here are both physically stronger,
more enduring, faster on their feet, and in beker health than those
with lower scores. This stat comes in really handy in combat,
because it helps one strike harder and faster, and soak up damage
beker.
Coordinaôn: This Akribute has to do with how coordinated and precise your
persona is physically. Those with beker numbers here have steady
nerves, terric hand/eye coordinaôn, and talent for pursuits
such as picking pockets, playing musical instruments, drawing,
juggling, etc.

Soul:
This TRAIT represents the sum total of all you Persona's Spiritual resources,
as well as the amount of Soul Damage the persona can sustain before become
a will-less Zombie.

Will: This has a lot to do with your willpower and self-discipline,
as well as your ability study, understand, and believe in
supernatural, theological, and philosophical concepts.

For example, if you had a high Memory, you could learn what Buddha or
Lao Tzu said, but to actually believe in their words and to make
them a part of yourself requires a good Will. Those with good
numbers here will be more devoted to their causes, benet more from
them, and go further to advance their goals. This applies to all
'causes' a person might have, have, whether it is to faithfully
serve a deity, to convert the heathen, or just to bravely defend
what the persona feels is 'right'. Clergymen, philosophers, and all
really ambiôus people will nd a high Will helpful.

Intuiôn: This represent the less-conscious side of the Soul, and
includes such things as faith and imaginaôn. Ar^sts, musicians,
and all those who rely on inspiraôn and a 'feel' for people
will benet from this akribute.

I Use PD, MD, and SD in the game... but I simplied the game stats down a
bit, as you
can see.

SEC:

Sec is randomly generated as in the Basic Rules... from 2 to 7... eects
are primarily
for background purposes and to control what careers you can have.

RACE:

I use a bunch of races... and they are not their own classes: instead they
modify one's stats:

Faeal (Orcs, sorta):
Increase to Muscle - Decrease to Will, Reason, Intuiôn

Dwarrow <Dwarfs>:
Increase to Muscle, Will - Decrease to Coordinaôn, Intuiôn

Alfar:
Increase to Coordinaôn, Intuiôn - Decrease to Muscle, Will

Alfen:
Increase to Intuiôn, Will - Decrease to Muscle, Reason

Pixie:
Increase to Coordinaôn - Decrease to Muscle, Memory, Reason

Centaur:
Increase to Muscle - Decrease to Memory, Reason
(also, note logical size-restricôns on many doors.)

Krindorian (purebred Half Ogre-type):
See Centaur.

Gnomen (the Ferengi of the Seing :) ):
Increase to Memory, Reason - Decrease to Will, Muscle

======================================================
VOCATIONS

All vocaôns have:

RIDING
ETIQUETTE
PERCEPTION

Basically as the book describes them.

<skills for vocaôns below are, unfortunately, listed from lowest to highest.>

Skills rankings are:

5 = 5 points plus governing Akribute/3 (easy to do if it's coded) :)
4 = 10 points plus governing Akribute/3

No specializaôns in skills... only Charms (aka:Apotropaism), Sorcery,
Priestcrav, and Necromancy give spells... Full skill list averwards.

===============
Architect/Engineer

5 leadership
4 law
4 rstaid
4 games
3 administraôn
3 brawl
2 drawing
2 melee
1 engineering

Ar^st

5 musicianship
4 composiôn
4 religion
4 geneology
3 appraisal
3 history
2 games
2 drawing
1 pain^ng

Doctor

5 natureakunement
4 occul^sm
4 games
4 toxicology
3 melee
3 herbalism
2 drawing
2 rstaid
1 medicine

Entertainer

5 occul^sm
4 streetwise
4 musicianship
4 melee
3 brawl
3 disguise
2 acroba^cs
2 thespianism
1 dance

Explorer

5 endurance
4 animalhandling
4 rstaid
4 natureakunement
3 espionage
3 brawl
2 missile
2 melee
1 survival

HedgeMage(Wiseman/woman)

5 exorcism
4 occul^sm
4 rstaid
4 natureakunement
3 agriculture
2 priestcraev
3 religion
1 charms

Knight(Sorta Jesse's Realm Knight)

5 survival
4 games
4 leadership
4 gambling
3 missile
3 brawl
2 geneology
2 armsandarmor
1 melee

Merchant

5 geneology
4 brawl
4 melee
4 law
3 games
3 streetwise
2 administraôn
2 decepôn
1 appraisal

ConAr^st

5 decepôn
4 survival
4 streetwise
4 disguise
3 pcrimes
3 appraisal
2 gambling
2 melee
1 mcrimes

Mariner

5 endurance
4 gambling
4 sports
4 survival
3 rstaid
3 missile
2 melee
2set brawl
1 seamanship

Mage

5 toxicology
4 rstaid
4 astronomy
4 demonology
3 history
3 games
3 herbalism
1 magick
1 sorcery (A very 'neutral, it's all in how yah use it' spell area)

Mys^c.Seer

5 melee
4 rstaid
4 brawl
4 exorcism
3 demonology
3 decepôn
2 occul^sm
2 astronomy
1 mys^cism

Noble

5 games
4 leadership
4 sports
4 gambling
3 hun^ng/tracking
3 brawl
2 missile
2 geneology
1 melee

Poet.Musician

5 tolerance
4 geneology
4 melee
4 games
3 thespianism
3 streetwise
3 history
1 musicianship
1 composiôn

Priest

5 rstaid
4 mys^cism
4 melee
4 occul^sm
3 thespianism
3 history
2 exorcism
2 religion
1 priestcraev

Scholar

5 streetwise
4 demonology
4 occul^sm
4 magick
3 games
3 law
2 religion
2 geneology
1 history

Soldier/Merc

5 sports
4 missile
4 survival
4 streetwise
3 escape
3 gambling
2 p-crimes
2 brawl
1 melee

StreetYouth

5 thespianism
4 gambling
4 pcrimes
4 brawl
3 decepôn
3 appraisal
2 m-crimes
2 escape
1 streetwise

Thief

5 escape
4 acroba^cs
4 streetwise
4 espionage
3 brawl
3 decepôn
2 melee
2 m-crimes
1 p-crimes

The player than chooses one free skill of their own, but it can't, but
necessity, but Magick, Sorcery (they are taught as a pair), Preistcrav, or
Firearms -- they have to be taught this during the game.

You will note in these vocaôns that magic is alot less common and
understood... only three or for skills grant spells of any kind.

It's mythus with a touch of Warhammer, I guess.

=========================================

Here's the truncated skill list -- again in no par^cular order, unfortunately.

SPORTS --derived from-- muscle+coordinaôn/2
Games, Physical, basically

SEAMANSHIP --derived from-- muscle+coordinaôn/2
Boa^ng and Seamanship, combined

PCRIMES --derived from-- muscle+coordinaôn/2
Crime, Physical

MEDICINE --derived from-- reason+coordinaôn/2
Surgery and 'western' healing

MCRIMES --derived from-- memory

Crimes, Mental

MAGICK --derived from-- reason
Magick Law, gives Magic points.

GAMES --derived from-- reason
Games, Mental

FIRSTAID --derived from-- memory
As the Book

ETIQUETTE --derived from-- SEC
As the Book

ACROBATICS --derived from-- coordinaôn

AGRICULTURE --derived from-- memory

GENEOLOGY --derived from-- memory

DEMONOLOGY --derived from-- memory
Knowledge, no magic, no spells

GAMBLING --derived from-- memory+reason/2

HISTORY --derived from-- memory

LAW --derived from-- memory

TOXICOLOGY --derived from-- memory

ASTRONOMY --derived from-- memory
Knowledge, some prognos^caôn, no magic points

CHARMS --derived from-- memory
Apotropaism

APPRAISAL --derived from-- reason

ADMINISTRATION --derived from-- reason
Business administraôn

ENGINEERING --derived from-- reason

DECEPTION --derived from-- reason

MISSLE --derived from-- coordinaôn
Missle weapons

DISGUISE --derived from-- coordinaôn

ESCAPE --derived from-- coordinaôn

DRAWING --derived from-- coordinaôn

HUNTING/TRACKING --derived from-- coordinaôn

PERCEPTION --derived from-- reason+coordinaôn/2

RIDING --derived from-- coordinaôn

DANCE --derived from-- coordinaôn

SURVIVAL --derived from-- muscle

HEKAFORGING --derived from-- muscle

ENDURANCE --derived from-- muscle

ARMSANDARMOR --derived from-- muscle

SMITHING --derived from-- muscle

TOLERANCE --derived from-- muscle

MELEE --derived from-- muscle+coordinaôn

SWIMMING --derived from-- muscle+coordinaôn/2

FIREARMS --derived from-- reason+coordinaôn/2
Flintlocks and stu, I'd like to hear feedback on this.

LEADERSHIP --derived from-- intuiôn

PAINTING --derived from-- intuiôn

THESPIANISM --derived from-- intuiôn

ANIMALHANDLING --derived from-- intuiôn

COMPOSITION --derived from-- intuiôn

NATUREATTUNEMENT --derived from-- intuiôn

RELIGION --derived from-- intuiôn

STREETWISE --derived from-- intuiôn

MYSTICISM --derived from-- will

NECROMANCY --derived from-- will

PRIESTCRAEFT --derived from-- will

SORCERY --derived from-- will

HERBALISM --derived from-- will
Knowledge... skill checks to make poôns/balms

OCCULTISM --derived from-- will
Knowledge

BRAWL --derived from-- muscle
All st/feet/barstool combat

EXORCISM --derived from-- will
Skill checks for success... MAgic point cost at GM discreôn.

ESPIONAGE --derived from-- reason+coordinaôn/2

========================================================
Combat.

I use parries and damage to weapons.... averaged armor and sustained armor
damage.
I don't use strike locaôns or cri^cal hits or misses.

=========================================================

Whew, that's alot of stu... and I'm sure I lev some stu out... but I
wanted to get some brainstorming done with people who know the system -none of the game admin but me know the rules :)

Ask me things, make me clarify... ask me why I lev some skills out...
WHATEVER :)

___
_ C ..\__ "O the keys to the systemboard, up to the
_/ \ ___| oo\ _ CPU, and back to the the EtherCard. Over
| \_/\/____ ____/ _/ \_ the Op^c line to the Server, down

| |_) | ___|/` _ \| \_/ \ the 56K to the ISP, to the T1...
| _ <| __>| /_\ | |_) ) NOTHING BUT NET."
| |_) | \| ` ' | \
__|____/|____|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 22:27:09 -0600
Subject: LOOK OUT!!!

I will shortly be pos^ng a BIG, DISORGANIZED THING on an alternate rules
set up for Mythus that hybridizes the Basic and Advanced Rules... I'm doing
this primarily for feedback on whatever I missed.

If you don't want it.. skip it :)

___

| _ <| __>| /_\ | |_) ) NOTHING BUT NET."
| |_) | \| ` ' | \
__|____/|____|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 01:16:24 -0400
Subject: Re: A BIG POST ON ALTERNATE RULES FOR MYTHUS
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960507043201.00687eec@dimensional.com>

Doyce
Quesôn one: Why leave out the most interes^ng damage rules (Strike
Locaôn)? The only good answer I can come up with is that your Mush
wouldn't be much fun if everyone died during the rst bakle... :)

Anyway, this sounds like fun. I suppose you'll allow us all to wander
in, won't you? :) (Not knowing much about mud/mush/moo kinds of things)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 23:52:59 -0600

At 01:16 AM 5/7/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Doyce>
>Quesôn one: Why leave out the most interes^ng damage rules (Strike
>Locaôn)? The only good answer I can come up with is that your Mush
>wouldn't be much fun if everyone died during the rst bakle... :)

Well, partly cuz I had to code the whole thing, and partly for the reason
you menôned. :) Frankly, as I begin the beta tes^ng that will take about
a month, I am going to be taking a good hard look at combat lethality and
making likle tweaks and nudges to get it to feel right... right now, I
dont' have enough numbers to see the big picture.

I should clarify that some weapons do 'special' damage that basically
equates to vital hits... guns are like that... they're just slower'n'hell

>Anyway, this sounds like fun. I suppose you'll allow us all to wander
>in, won't you? :) (Not knowing much about mud/mush/moo kinds of things)

If you can walk around in the old Zork games, you'll gure out the rest,
And we have admin that help new people :)

I'm ocially extending the invite, yes... it's a sort of Italic City State
with a duke, a couple thieves guilds, merchants... the whole shebang... a
preky cool seing, if I do say so m'self... also add in intlocks and
lower the magic and you've got a plausible 'Musketeers/Magic/TouchOHorror'
seing using my favorite (simplied) rules.

You'll also note that I lev out some skills and careers that I've learned
it preky much sucks to play in a mush/City seing.

And, since I don't want to code a gazillion spells, what I'm doing with
things like Exorcism is having the player RP the various rites, then make
skill checks to determine the general eec^veness of the magic... I can
just check the book to see how hard it is to do something similar... this
lets me use RP for: Herbalism, Exorcism, HekaForging (I called it 'Dae
forging'), and a ton of others... I think puing Sorcery cas^ngs in the
place of the 'normal' Dweomercrav gives a dierent feel, as well -something I've been contempla^ng doing with my next Face To Face Campaign,
as well.

___
| \_/\/____ ____/ _/ \_ the Op^c line to the Server, down the
| |_) | ___|/` _ \| \_/ \ 56K to the ISP, then the T1...
| _ <| __>| /_\ | |_) ) NOTHING BUT NET."
| |_) | \| ` ' | \
__|____/|____|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 10:01:55 -0400
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960507055259.00675364@dimensional.com>

On Mon, 6 May 1996, Doyce Testerman wrote:

> Well, partly cuz I had to code the whole thing, and partly for the reason
> you menôned. :) Frankly, as I begin the beta tes^ng that will take about
> a month, I am going to be taking a good hard look at combat lethality and
> making likle tweaks and nudges to get it to feel right... right now, I
> dont' have enough numbers to see the big picture.
beta tes^ng? !perk! I like beta tes^ng.

> I should clarify that some weapons do 'special' damage that basically
> equates to vital hits... guns are like that... they're just slower'n'hell
Huh-huh-Huh-huh-Huh....Guns are cool.

> I'm ocially extending the invite, yes... it's a sort of Italic City State
> with a duke, a couple thieves guilds, merchants... the whole shebang... a
> preky cool seing, if I do say so m'self... also add in intlocks and
> lower the magic and you've got a plausible 'Musketeers/Magic/TouchOHorror'
> seing using my favorite (simplied) rules.
Kewl! I'll actually get to do some RPGing this summer when my ancee
isn't around.

> You'll also note that I lev out some skills and careers that I've learned
> it preky much sucks to play in a mush/City seing.
Like what? Remember that not all of us are familiar with Miues.

> And, since I don't want to code a gazillion spells, what I'm doing with
> things like Exorcism is having the player RP the various rites, then make
> skill checks to determine the general eec^veness of the magic... I can
> just check the book to see how hard it is to do something similar... this
> lets me use RP for: Herbalism, Exorcism, HekaForging (I called it 'Dae
> forging'), and a ton of others... I think puing Sorcery cas^ngs in the
> place of the 'normal' Dweomercrav gives a dierent feel, as well --
> something I've been contempla^ng doing with my next Face To Face Campaign,
> as well.
Yeah, 'cept that it says (at least to me) that normal mortals have no
magick of their own. If you replace Dweomercraev with Sorcery, that
seems to imply that the only powerful magick comes from the whims of gods
and devils.
Well, ok. I guess you could call Necromancy the eort of human will,
but that has some interes^ng Freudian implicaôns as well. I would
suggest the addiôn of Dweomercraev and the addiôn of cas^ngs to
Mys^cism. I suggest this because they are two k/s with some of the most
useful blamed cas^ngs in the game, and they represent two uniquely
humanoid perspec^ves on magick.

I'll even oer to help code them if that is what it takes. (How do you
code a Morsh anyway?)

btw, I kinda like the RP aspect of some magick skills. What does that
entail though? Is that some sort of freeform spellcas^ng?

What about spellsongs? We have to have some annoying bard-type PCs to
assassinate --umm, I mean-- entertain us.

--Ryan Snead
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 09:23:58 -0600

At 10:01 AM 5/7/96 -0400, you wrote:
>On Mon, 6 May 1996, Doyce Testerman wrote:
>Huh-huh-Huh-huh-Huh....Guns are cool.

Yes. They. Are. :) Ever since I and a friend of mine watched Charlie Sheen
blow a guy away in the Three Musketeers, then make the sign of the cross
with the smoke... I have felt an incessant NEED to add black poweder weapons
to the game. :)

>> You'll also note that I lev out some skills and careers that I've learned
>> it preky much sucks to play in a mush/City seing.
>Like what? Remember that not all of us are familiar with Miues.

Okay... anything that's a Loner type are prac^cally useless in a Mush...
the whole point is that there's 20 to 70 other people that you WANT to play
with, but you're trapped in your own ICness as a person who spends a
majority of their ^me alone. Outdoorsey type vocaôns and skills like
Mountaineering and Nature Atunement are, though cool, _generally_ a waste
for the player (though I might s^ll add in nature akunement to some
vocaôn's list anyway.

Also, one nice side eect of such a seing is that vocaôns that are
otherwise 'automa^cally NPC's' like a Smith or Tailor suddenly become
viable and lucra^ve PC's: you're sought aver by others... you have lots to
do, and you know a LOT of people... those are vocaôns I s^ll need to add,
actually, probably by puing in a varient of the Architect... (another
vocaôn you would see all the ^me). See, in a city like this... everyone
can pick up a sword and defend their home... anyone can join the miliâ...
anyone can be a hero.

But I don't want the give the rst Year's plot away :)

>> And, since I don't want to code a gazillion spells, what I'm doing with
>> things like Exorcism is having the player RP the various rites, then make
>> skill checks to determine the general eec^veness of the magic... I can
>> just check the book to see how hard it is to do something similar... this
>> lets me use RP for: Herbalism, Exorcism, HekaForging (I called it 'Dae
>> forging'), and a ton of others... I think puing Sorcery cas^ngs in the
>> place of the 'normal' Dweomercrav gives a dierent feel, as well ->> something I've been contempla^ng doing with my next Face To Face Campaign,
>> as well.
>Yeah, 'cept that it says (at least to me) that normal mortals have no
>magick of their own. If you replace Dweomercraev with Sorcery, that
>seems to imply that the only powerful magick comes from the whims of gods
>and devils.

Ahh... I forgot to Menôn: you don't have to make a pact for Sorcery IMC...
it actually does replace the whole mindset of dweomercas^ng... the thought
process being 'we nd in Magick what we go looking for: not good or evil,
only power, which we then taint, or not, according to our natures.'
Actually, a very naturalis^c, wiccan, philosophy. Look over the list of
Sorcery cas^ngs without out the coloring of 'pact required': I think it's a
preky interes^ng, humanis^c list.

Which isn't to say I won't be adding in common cas^ngs from the other schools.

>Well, ok. I guess you could call Necromancy the eort of human will,
>but that has some interes^ng Freudian implicaôns as well. I would
>suggest the addiôn of Dweomercraev and the addiôn of cas^ngs to
>Mys^cism. I suggest this because they are two k/s with some of the most
>useful blamed cas^ngs in the game, and they represent two uniquely
>humanoid perspec^ves on magick.

Mys^cism? Hmm... I hadn't even though about that list... I'll take a gander
at it. Actually, I was going to rewrite that skill to cover the 'prac^cal'
side of occul^sm... like fortunetelling..., but I might simply add
divinaôn as a similar skill to the use of Exorcism, et al... a RPing
magick skill.

>I'll even oer to help code them if that is what it takes. (How do you
>code a Morsh anyway?)

UGH... don't do it... you're beker o not knowing. :)

>btw, I kinda like the RP aspect of some magick skills. What does that
>entail though? Is that some sort of freeform spellcas^ng?

Well, now that you menôn it... yeah, I suppose it is... Let's take
Herbalism: Player tells me 'I want to make some sort of soluôn that Player
X can imbibe that will allow him to see spirits/protect him from evil/heal
his wounds' If they done this before, I just let them RP the creaôn of
the drink... charge them appropriately (based o some similar spell in the
lists), and they have it... IF NOT, then they do alot of research and
experimentaôn to get the formula right, and I have them roll vs. their
skill (also based o the books). With herbalism,exorcism, and even
necromancy some^mes (remember, it's a lower magic world) research is going
to be necessary to get all the details right.

>What about spellsongs? We have to have some annoying bard-type PCs to
>assassinate --umm, I mean-- entertain us.

OH DAMN... totally forgot about those guys...

Hrm... yeah, maybe I will have that skill, but, like rearms, it'll be
something someone will have to teach you once you start playing.

A Note: the reason I did rearms like that -- ie: you have to have someone
teach you once play starts -- has several reasons behind it... most
game-related, some logical.

1>Guns are powerful, and they should be rare and also expensive -- I
couldn't see any 'star^ng players' already having such a rare skill, cept
for maybe nobles.

2>With RP, an 'average' player will have to save all their XP's for a couple
months just for that skill before they get it at a basic level of about 20
percent.

3> They have to nd a 'feature' character who's willing to RP teaching
them: which means one of the responsible senior players has to take them
under their wing to an extent.

The end result is I make sure that anyone who gets that skill is 1>
Dedicated 2> a decent player 3> Inuenced by my senior players 4>
well-educated on how the game is run _before_ he gets the big boom s^ck.

___

| |_) | \| ` ' | \ --Hawthorne
__|____/|____|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 15:03:27 -0700
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960507011453.16043B-100000@conciliator.acsu.bualo.edu> from "Jesse"
at May 7,
96 01:16:24 am

Doyce,

This looks very interes^ng. I may just have to check it out once
it's up and running. As far as giving suggesôns, could you give
some sort of summary on how you're handling the mechanics? How much
of this will be handled by code, and how much by those running the
game? I'm more familiar with Diku MUDs than MUSHs myself, so I'm not
sure whether suggesôns I might have would actually be usable.

Other than that, I like it. Guns, low magic, poli^cs, etc -- sounds like
a lot of fun.

Steven
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 15:42:27 +0100
From: eleMental <bramo@BALDER.SVG.NA.NO>
Subject: Necropolis, Ancient Babylonian and Egypân Magic

"Necropolis" and Unmortal Rahotep will be the cornerstone of my Egypân
campaign (set around 1200 BC). Has anyone on the list ever DMed or played
the module? Any ^ps, advice, do's and do-not's?

Also, I've sort of worked out an Egypân magic system (but I'm not using
the Mythus rules, though). I'd also like to esh out the Babylonian
mages and their specialês. I know they were skilled diviners and
astrologers, but were there any other elds where they excelled?
(The Egypâns are experts with amulets and charms, ushab^-statuekes
and true name magic.)

_________________________________________________________
eleMental bramo@balder.svg.na.no
Homepage at hkp://balder.svg.na.no/~bramo/frontpage.html
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 11:11:48 +0100
Subject: Re: Necropolis, Ancient Babylonian and Egypân Magic

>"Necropolis" and Unmortal Rahotep will be the cornerstone of my Egypân
>campaign (set around 1200 BC). Has anyone on the list ever DMed or played
>the module? Any ^ps, advice, do's and do-not's?
>
Beware, Necropolis gets _very_ nasty towards the end. Make sure your
players have a few magickal items going into the thing. Also, if they
don't like thinking adventures, they may have a problem. There are many
parts of Necropolis where ignorance can get you killed.

>Also, I've sort of worked out an Egypân magic system (but I'm not using
>the Mythus rules, though). I'd also like to esh out the Babylonian
>mages and their specialês. I know they were skilled diviners and
>astrologers, but were there any other elds where they excelled?
>(The Egypâns are experts with amulets and charms, ushab^-statuekes
>and true name magic.)
>
If you have access to the Epic of Aerth, check the heka-educaôn ranks in
the back. These list the potency of Babylonian educaôn on a 1 - 5 chart
and should provide you with a good source of informaôn in this regard.
BTW, what rules _are_ you using?

>_________________________________________________________
>eleMental bramo@balder.svg.na.no
>Homepage at hkp://balder.svg.na.no/~bramo/frontpage.html

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 01:19:23 -0700
Subject: LETS GET ASCALON!!!!!!!!

At 10:39 PM 3/19/96 +0100, you wrote:

>Is there anyone out there who knows whether this scenario was part of the
>seklement, and who the author is?
>If it was no part of the seklement, maybe he's willing to share his work.
>Personally, I'm willing to pay for my copy. So if all of us buy it from him,
>he will s^ll get some money for his work.

Okay guys, this is something I've been turning over for a while, and
I cant stand it anymore. Lets nd the guy who wrote Ascalon and buy it
from him. I asked Dave about this earlier, and got his name and a GDW phone
number to call, but I never followed up, and now GDW is out of business.

What I propose is this.
We nd this guy, and oer to buy copies from him, we all chip in an equal
amount, and we all get copies.

I was thinking $15 or $20 per person, and if everyone on this list wants a
copy(I know I'm dying for one) That would be $3000 or $4000 dollars. Thats
nothing to sneeze at, and aver all this ^me, the guy might like to see his
work put to use, and get a hevy chunk of change too(well, especially).

Its either that or it sits on his shelf forever.

Plus, the longer we wait to try to get it, the more likely it will disappear
forever.

C'monC'monC'monC'monC'monC'mon!!!!!
Whaddya think???

I'll do all the legwork if someone gives me a lead.(Dave?? Dave??)

Mike(IAAAAAAAAAAM not not not a symbiote, okay well alikle bit)

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 18:50:18 +0200
Subject: Re: LETS GET ASCALON!!!!!!!!

At 01:19 9-05-96 -0700, you wrote:
[]
> Okay guys, this is something I've been turning over for a while, and
>I cant stand it anymore. Lets nd the guy who wrote Ascalon and buy it
>from him. I asked Dave about this earlier, and got his name and a GDW phone
>number to call, but I never followed up, and now GDW is out of business.
>
>What I propose is this.
>We nd this guy, and oer to buy copies from him, we all chip in an equal
>amount, and we all get copies.
>
>I was thinking $15 or $20 per person, and if everyone on this list wants a
>copy(I know I'm dying for one) That would be $3000 or $4000 dollars. Thats
>nothing to sneeze at, and aver all this ^me, the guy might like to see his
>work put to use, and get a hevy chunk of change too(well, especially).
>
>Its either that or it sits on his shelf forever.
>
>Plus, the longer we wait to try to get it, the more likely it will disappear
>forever.
>
>C'monC'monC'monC'monC'monC'mon!!!!!
>Whaddya think???
>
>I'll do all the legwork if someone gives me a lead.(Dave?? Dave??)
>
>Mike(IAAAAAAAAAAM not not not a symbiote, okay well alikle bit)
>
>
>Chris Calvert
>
>calvert@ucla.edu
>

Here's a lead that I didn't follow up completely aver my iniâl pos^ng
(this has been posted to the list before):

|X-Sender: johntroy@âc.net
|Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:53:41 -0500
|Reply-To: Mythus Fantasy Roleplaying Game List <MYTHUS-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
|Sender: Mythus Fantasy Roleplaying Game List <MYTHUS-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
|From: "John R. Troy" <johntroy@TIAC.NET>
|Subject: Re: New Guy
|To: Mul^ple recipients of list MYTHUS-L <MYTHUS-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
|
|>Is there anyone out there who knows whether this scenario was part of the
|>seklement, and who the author is?
|>If it was no part of the seklement, maybe he's willing to share his work.
|>Personally, I'm willing to pay for my copy. So if all of us buy it from |him,
|>he will s^ll get some money for his work.
|>
|The author is a gentleman named Loren K. Wiseman. He's wriken a lot for
|GDW. He was GDW's ocial on-line representa^ve on GEnie and AOL.
|
|At the ^me, he wasn't willing to part with it. Now, I wonder if he would |be.

If I remember correctly, I asked John if he new an e-mail address of Loren.
He send me an address, to which an e-mail I sent bounced. I didn't follow it
up any further.
I didn't keep this e-mail, so if I remember incorrectly, please correct me John.

Maybe you can nd out a telephone number or such when you're within
America. Our telephone company requires to nd a number that you specify
the name and the city, otherwise they can't nd it. Hopefully it's beker
in the US.

If it's any help to persuade Loren, I'm s^ll willing to pay my share in
buying the scenario from him.

Harold Stringer.
biopharm@xs4all.nl
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 13:17:45 -0400
Subject: Loren's Address (and number)

I found Loren K. Wiseman's address and phone number.

Loren K Wiseman
101 E Lincoln St Apt L,
Normal, IL 61761-1441

I don't want to release the number over a public net, but neither do I wish
to contact him myself (I am NO good on the phone).

Which of us should be a representa^ve for this?
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 13:21:35 -0400
Subject: Just for Claricaôn

To clarify, I have NO GUARANTEE that is Loren's address, but it was the only
one with a "K" in it and GDW was based in Normal, IL. So, I assume its
accurate.

But in all the chaos with GDW's collapse, he might have moved anyway. He
was company, not a freelancer, and was primarilly a wargame developer.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 14:44:31 -0400

Subject: Ascalon?

I must've missed something. What is Ascalon?

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 18:49:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Ascalon?

Ascalon was a city source box set for Mythus. I think it was supposed to be
near Aegypt.

It was nearly ready for release at the ^me of the seklement, however, since
it was not yet released the author (Loren) retained ^tle.

Loren did a good job, par^cularly on GENie, of providing support for Mythus
waaay back when it was rst released.

Rick Crook
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 1980 18:02:33 PST

>>Is there anyone out there who knows whether this scenario was part of the
>>seklement, and who the author is?
>>If it was no part of the seklement, maybe he's willing to share his work.
>>Personally, I'm willing to pay for my copy. So if all of us buy it from him,
>>he will s^ll get some money for his work.

Well... I doubt if it will be something he *can* sell, due to the seklement. All I
can say is good luck, guys. And I seriously doubt you'll come up with anything
because it was (as far as I know) a work contracted by GDW, and therefore owned now
by TSR.

Boy, I wish I had something I could sell (besides the two adventures I was working
on). I could really use the money right now. If I were given the oer, I could
probably do it and get away with it, since my stu was never under contract. All in
all, it would s^ll be dicey, since you know how THEY are about anything they might
even come close to claiming belongs to them. I wouldn't want to talk about it
on-line (except maybe through e-mail, and maybe not even then).

But who knows? I'd love to see Ascalon - it's one of the only Mythus products that
I've never seen.

Dave=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 19:23:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Ascalon?

Thanks for the update. :) Or should I saw review.

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 17:35:45 -0700
Subject: Re: Loren's Address (and number)

At 01:17 PM 5/9/96 -0400, you wrote:
>I found Loren K. Wiseman's address and phone number.
>
>Loren K Wiseman
>101 E Lincoln St Apt L,
>Normal, IL 61761-1441

ALLLLriiiighkty then! I'll be mailing him something ASAP(with the
appropriate cauônary notes).

You'll hear how it turned out as soon as I hear back from him.

Mike

>
>I don't want to release the number over a public net, but neither do I wish
>to contact him myself (I am NO good on the phone).
>
>Which of us should be a representa^ve for this?
>==================
>John R. Troy (JRT)
>johntroy@âc.net
>==================
>
>

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 21:52:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Loren's Address (and number)

At 05:35 PM 5/9/96 -0700, Chris Calvert wrote:
>At 01:17 PM 5/9/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>I found Loren K. Wiseman's address and phone number.
>>
>>Loren K Wiseman
>>101 E Lincoln St Apt L,
>>Normal, IL 61761-1441
>
>ALLLLriiiighkty then! I'll be mailing him something ASAP(with the
>appropriate cauônary notes).
>
>You'll hear how it turned out as soon as I hear back from him.
>
>Mike
>
FYI, I asked Frank Mentzer, if he's willing of course, to call and see if
this is a good idea beforehand. (I trust him since he's in the same class
as the other game designers, thus a peer and not a fan.)

Be gentle with him--he's likely lost a lot.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 00:32:14 -0400

I'd kill to have Ascalon. I think there's got to be some way we can get the
things which we know have been wriken and never published...i.e. Unhallowed,
Acalon, Deity Sourcebook, etc. Someone's wriken them so let's gure out a
way to pony up some dough and snag 'em.

Later,
Wayne

"You think with your crosses and your wafers you can stop me? I am the king
of my kind."
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 21:49:44 -0700
Organizaôn: UIS
Subject: Archer Vocaôn
X-cc: Trevor Lummerding <tlummer@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>,
Lynden Lindahl <vithar@connect.ab.ca>

====> ARCHER

Archer
by Teneray Clarke & Je Sharpe<jsharpe@portal.ca>

Trait: Physical
SEC Range: 1-6
SEC At Start: 2
Vocaôn Group: Arms

Aver choosing to be in the Arms vocaôn, you desire your Heroic
Persona to be more specialized than the standard Soldier or Mercenary
vocaôn - try the Archer instead!

In general, Archers are professionally trained foot soldiers êd to a
state, or another body whom can aord a standing army, that have had
the added training necessary to specialize in missile weapons. Oven,
these military specialists use light armour and weapons and are not
trained in close acôn conicts, as are the Infantry vocaôn. Some
countries have reserves or a miliâ with Archer units which rely upon
na^ve skills, yet these are far from standard. Oven u^lized from a
rear, or ank, posiôn, these units can be lethal if used eec^vely.

Though, these troops can be used competently in garrison duty, it is
in mass that the killing eect is best u^lized. Combined with the
speed of light troops, these units are oven found amongst the hills
and plains of a sovereign state. Many countries took the use of these
troops to a dierent level and lowered the size of the baggage train
to almost nil, forcing these troops to live o the land (or other
necessary means).

Who can forget the brilliant triumph of Albion's Henry V over the
overwhelming forces of Francia and Marshal Boucicault's new plan
to disrupt the Archers of Albion near the ^ny town of Agincourt.
Outnumbered 3 to 1, Henry V's bold iniâ^ve in advancing to occupy
a strong posiôn won over the Francia lords who jostled for glory.
They only found slaughter or capture. The Archers of Albion could
rapid shoot a dozen missles in the air in a minute and stop a
cavalry charge in its tracks.

K/S Base STEEP
------------------------------- --------- Combat, Hand Weapons, Missile 20
Criminal Ac^viês, Physical 16
Escape 16
Gambling 16
Handicrav/Handiwork 16
Hun^ng/Tracking 16
Survival 16
Combat, HTH, Non-Lethal 12
Combat, HTH, Lethal 12
Combat, Hand Weapons 12
Criminal Ac^viês, Mental 12
Decepôn 12
First Aid 12
Games, Mental 12
Jack-of-all-Trades 12
Military Science 12
Foreign Language 8
Foreign Language 8
Travel 8
-- 248

Closely related to the Soldier/Mercenary vocaôn, the Archer has few
dierences and those he does have are fairly obvious.

(c) 1995 by Je "Caesar" Sharpe
Reproducôn granted to advocates of Dangerous Journeys(tm)
Mythus(tm).

-Je Sharpe
<jsharpe@portal.ca>
<sharpe@li-business.ab.ca>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 05:02:51 -0400

At 12:32 AM 5/10/96 -0400, Wayne Westphalen wrote:
>I'd kill to have Ascalon. I think there's got to be some way we can get the
>things which we know have been wriken and never published...i.e. Unhallowed,
>Acalon, Deity Sourcebook, etc. Someone's wriken them so let's gure out a
>way to pony up some dough and snag 'em.
>
Unlikely with the rest. Several reasons. I'm sure EGG had works that were
in various stages of compleôn, which will never see the light of day.
(Changeling overview was...I know there was some development with Lyonesse
(sourcebook), etc., there were porôns of the printed works that were
edited out...)

If TSR doesn't have them, I'm sure there is a big clause in this seklement
telling him not to release any notes, etc, regarding the Dangerous Journeys
game. Also consider the fact that anything unpublished could be altered and
adjusted to be used in another game system, so why waste material like that!
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 09:14:21 -0700
X-cc: Dave Newton <dirk@MINDSPRING.COM>

>Well... I doubt if it will be something he *can* sell, due to the
>seklement. All I
>can say is good luck, guys. And I seriously doubt you'll come up with anything
>because it was (as far as I know) a work contracted by GDW, and therefore
>owned now
>by TSR.
>
>Boy, I wish I had something I could sell (besides the two adventures I was
>working
>on). I could really use the money right now. If I were given the oer, I could
>probably do it and get away with it, since my stu was never under
>contract. All in
>all, it would s^ll be dicey, since you know how THEY are about anything
>they might
>even come close to claiming belongs to them. I wouldn't want to talk about it
>on-line (except maybe through e-mail, and maybe not even then).
>
>But who knows? I'd love to see Ascalon - it's one of the only Mythus
>products that
>I've never seen.
>
>Dave

Perhaps he would interested in leing a group of dedicated Mythus players
beta test the product.

Dave, I have been absent from the list for over a year. I seem to remember
something about your making the Mythus book (Phaerie?) that you were
working on available to players, you were just wai^ng to clean it up I
think. Did anything ever come of that? I would be happy to review it for
you ;-}

In fact if any copies of such works showed up in my mailbox I would never
think of menôning it to that evil company run by that evil woman and her
evil minion. I really have goken over being biker, no really ;-} I have
faith in divine
retribuôn.

Best Regards,
John Stanton
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 18:06:07 +1000
From: James Helm <monk@MELBOURNE.DIALIX.OZ.AU>
Subject: Character Generators

Hi there people,

Are there any computer character generators out there for DOS or Windows 3.1?

Any help would be mch appreciated...thanx

--------------Jimi...the Monk from elsewhere monk@melbourne.DIALix.oz.au

or : hkp://melbourne.dialix.com/~monk/monk.shtml

"May all your quesôns be ones to which you already know the answer."

:)

monk
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 12:16:09 +0100
From: eleMental <bramo@BALDER.SVG.NA.NO>
Subject: Re: Necropolis, Ancient Babylonian and Egypân Magic
In-Reply-To: <v01520d00adb623043b92@[206.109.96.184]>

On Wed, 8 May 1996, Tom wrote:

> Beware, Necropolis gets _very_ nasty towards the end. Make sure your
> players have a few magickal items going into the thing. Also, if they
> don't like thinking adventures, they may have a problem. There are many
> parts of Necropolis where ignorance can get you killed.

That's the best way to learn a lesson: The hard one ;)

Actually, I was worried that there might be a likle too much
hack-and-slash gaming (esp. in the later chapters), but I guess there
has to be some acôn, too! All in all, it seems like a very solid work.

> If you have access to the Epic of Aerth, check the heka-educaôn ranks in
> the back. These list the potency of Babylonian educaôn on a 1 - 5 chart
> and should provide you with a good source of informaôn in this regard.

Aah, I remember seeing those. Anyway, I was thinking about spliing the
Babylonian magic areas into Divinaôn (examining the guts of sacriced
animals, etc.), Astrology (drawing inuences from the planets and
constellaôns to boost akributes and such; perhaps some divinaôn
here, too) and Religion (prayers to the Bab. gods which can produce
blessings, curses, etc.). I want to make the Babylonians beker diviners
than the Egypâns, reec^ng history (?).

> BTW, what rules _are_ you using?

Hehe... good quesôn. Actually, I'm currently toying around with a
home-grown gaming system, where I have tried to combine the fun (?) of
AD&D (I may not say that on this list...:), the simplicity of FUDGE,
the logical consistency of GURPS, and the "feel" of Mythus. Basically,
it's a skill-based system with percen^le dice. I realize it looks much
like Mythus Prime, but I've thrown out the things I don't like (I
_hate_ those 27 akributes of Advanced Mythus!, also I have a dierent
wound system) and thrown in the stu I like from other places.

The magic system has magic divided into dient areas, and each spell
must be learned as a separate skill. There is no ashy or epic magic
(since it's going to be used in a semi-historical campaign). Magic is not
en^rely reliable, so the mages fear it a bit...

It hasn't been playtested much yet, but I like it (I made it, aver
all!). I'll try to use it this summer to GM a campaign set in Egypt.

_________________________________________________________
eleMental bramo@balder.svg.na.no
Homepage at hkp://balder.svg.na.no/~bramo/frontpage.html
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 16:34:11 EDT
From: Kris Dunn <72223.245@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Re: Character Generators

monk writes:

>Are there any computer character generators out there for DOS or Windows 3.1?

>Any help would be mch appreciated...thanx

I may be able to dig one up if there's enough interest for it. It's for Win3.1.

Here are some of the things that it does:
- Supports dierent races
- Allows for addiôns of new classes,races, K/S areas and spells
- Automa^cally determines K/S area bonuses due to skill in other K/S areas
- Allows specializaôn of K/S areas
- Allows user to pick half spells, then randomly generates other half (or have
it randomly generate
them all)
- Automa^cally determines full/parâl prac^ce
- Automa^cally determines star^ng HEKA
- Automa^cally determines number of known demon/devil names based on Occul^sm
K/S area

It does not support equipping characters...looks like that just never made it in
the program.

I haven't used the program in a couple of years, so I will have to go digging
through oppies to nd it. If anyone is interested, please let me know and
I'll start digging. No promises though.... Also, I won't have anything un^l
the 22nd.

K Dunn
kdunn@uky.campus.mci.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 22:35:48 -0500
From: aleric <aleric@INTERGATE.COM>

>
>I haven't used the program in a couple of years, so I will have to go digging
>through oppies to nd it. If anyone is interested, please let me know and
>I'll start digging. No promises though.... Also, I won't have anything un^l
>the 22nd.
>
>
>K Dunn
>kdunn@uky.campus.mci.net
>
If you could, I would like a copy of the program, if you nd it. I have
been trying to nd a quick way to do some of the more problem, ^me consuming
tasks quicker.

thanks
J
There are no truths, only stories.
True heroics must be carefully planned, and strenously avoided.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 00:23:05 -0400

Count me in!
I'd love to see that character generator.

Let me know,

Jason
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 14:38:19 +0100
Subject: Character Generators...

I think there is a consensus, 'cos I wouldn't mind geing my grubbly
likle hands on that program. If you can nd it, and don't mind the
extra touble, please send it along to me.

Cheers
--MARK

Mark Trickek, BSc. Archaeology (Leicester University)

"Ha! 'Tis only a esh wound..."
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 09:44:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Character Generators...
In-Reply-To: <3F751FC7E4E@daisy.le.ac.uk>

On Tue, 14 May 1996, M.A.Trickek wrote:

> I think there is a consensus, 'cos I wouldn't mind geing my grubbly
> likle hands on that program. If you can nd it, and don't mind the
> extra touble, please send it along to me.

Or save lots of people trouble, pass it along to me and I'll put it up on
my web site so y'all can *all* come looking for it :-)

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 10:30:55 -0400

Me too! Me too!

:-)

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 10:55:57 -0600
Subject: Haven, the MYTHUS mush :)

Hello everyone,

First o, thanks for the great feedback on the stu I posted on the
Mythus-system Mush I'm building -- You're interest and enthusiasm was really
heartening.

I am currently compiling a list of the 'lead characters' for the seing -all the major characters that AREN'T going to be NPC's, and will be sending
this list out to all interested parês -- these will be the characters
involved in the beta tes^ng of the Mush -- allowing them to learn the
systems and get some plot and RP going before the general polulace logs on.

Right now, I have a list consis^ng of:

Mike Phillips
Jesse (I need your email address, Jes :))
Jason Sloan
harold@svpal.org
Steven Gullerud

And one other person who knows who they are. ;)

If there's anyone else interested in seeing this list of 'features' (not to
menôn alot of detail on the religions of Haven), let me know, and I'll
include you on the list.

___
| _ <| __>| /_\ | |_) ) NOTHING BUT NET."
| |_) | \| ` ' | \
__|____/|____|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 17:32:08 -0700
Subject: Re: Haven, the MYTHUS mush :)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960514165557.00675d0c@dimensional.com> from "Doyce
Testerman" at May 14, 96 10:55:57 am

> Hello everyone,
>
> First o, thanks for the great feedback on the stu I posted on the
> Mythus-system Mush I'm building -- You're interest and enthusiasm was really
> heartening.
>
> I am currently compiling a list of the 'lead characters' for the seing -> all the major characters that AREN'T going to be NPC's, and will be sending
> this list out to all interested parês -- these will be the characters
> involved in the beta tes^ng of the Mush -- allowing them to learn the
> systems and get some plot and RP going before the general polulace logs on.
>
> Right now, I have a list consis^ng of:
>
> Mike Phillips
> Jesse (I need your email address, Jes :))
> Jason Sloan
> harold@svpal.org
> Steven Gullerud
>
> And one other person who knows who they are. ;)
>
> If there's anyone else interested in seeing this list of 'features' (not to
> menôn alot of detail on the religions of Haven), let me know, and I'll
> include you on the list.

Add me, friend. I'm interested.

Aaron Brezenski

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 00:40:14 -0400
From: "Makhew E. Pearson" <makp@WEBSECURE.COM>
Subject: GREETINGS ALL....

Gree^ngs to everyone on the Mythus-L List..

I have not Vanished o the face of the earth as some might seem but have been moving and changing
jobs for the last 6 months... UGGGG

Anyhow... Mythus MUSH? sounds interes^ng.. I'd prefer it to be a MUD.. but what the hell..

Also... I have regested MYTHUS.ORG !

And once it comes back I will be seing up a PERMANANT Web site for the list and game..

I am looking obviously for people to help design pages, content, ar^cles etc..
So if you want to help you... rev up your text editors and photoshop..

Gree^ngs to everyone out there...

Makhew Pearson
MYTHUS-L Maintainer..
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 02:15:30 -0400

Please add me....

George Goins
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 14:47:56 +0100
Subject: Mythus MUSH

Send me some more informaôn, please... I'm sure that I would be
interested.

Thanks for your ^me...

Cheers
--MARK


=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 13:11:27 -0400
Subject: Re: GREETINGS ALL....

At 12:40 AM 5/14/96 -0400, Makhew E. Pearson wrote:
>Gree^ngs to everyone on the Mythus-L List..
>
>I have not Vanished o the face of the earth as some might seem but have
been moving and changing jobs for the last 6 months... UGGGG
>
>I have regested MYTHUS.ORG !
>
>Once it comes back I will be seing up a PERMANANT Web site for the list
and game..
>
>I am looking obviously for people to help design pages, content, ar^cles etc..
>So if you want to help you... rev up your text editors and photoshop..
>

I've been spending the past year coding HTML and crea^ng graphics, so I can
volunteer my services when I'm able.

Right now, I haven't been doing much with wri^ng for the game, but I can at
least make the pages visually appealing, suppor^ng the common HTML 3.2
elements, etc.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 14:41:04 -0400
Subject: Mythus MUSH

I'd also like some info. I seem to be missing everything on this list.

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 13:11:46 -0600

Subject: Re: Mythus MUSH

At 02:41 PM 5/15/96 -0400, you wrote:
>I'd also like some info. I seem to be missing everything on this list.
>
>-Josuah

Info coming your way, but I no^ce your address is aol... you might have
problems, if nothing else than a rapidly thinning bankbook, trying to
connect to the mush for long periods of ^me from Aol....

But I'll leave that up to you. :)
___
| _ <| __>| /_\ | |_) ) NOTHING BUT NET."
| |_) | \| ` ' | \
__|____/|____|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 15:31:32 -0400

Oh, is MUSH like a MOD, mul^-player real-^me thingie? Yeah, I couldn't do
that from AOL. I'm already into Fed enough. :)

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 13:52:01 -0600

Sorry about that last reply/post, everyone... I didn't realize that it was
going to the list, not to the intended recipient.
___
| _ <| __>| /_\ | |_) ) NOTHING BUT NET."

| |_) | \| ` ' | \
__|____/|____|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 13:59:40 -0600

At 03:31 PM 5/15/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Oh, is MUSH like a MOD, mul^-player real-^me thingie? Yeah, I couldn't do
>that from AOL. I'm already into Fed enough. :)
>

That's what it is, unfortunately.

Regards.
___
| _ <| __>| /_\ | |_) ) NOTHING BUT NET."
| |_) | \| ` ' | \
__|____/|____|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 16:03:56 -0400

>Please add me....
>
>George Goins

And me as well.

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 21:20:54 -0400
Subject: new site....sort of

Hello out there
Anyway, I've just completed a very basic, very rudimentary web site that
has a mythus porôn on it. Theres really nothing there right now, except
for a version of the herbs list that literally has no line breaks. Its
embarrassing to admit, almost, but it honestly doesn't. I'll x the
problem as soon as I can, and I'll also add more stu as I get it
together. If the site is of use to anyone, thats great, but basically this
is just for future reference when its actually legible.

the address is: hkp://home.ptd.net/~hagendaz/mythus.html

Apologizing again for the awful formaing...

Charles

p.s. the work on the herbs list has not stopped, just been sidetracked, and
as I indicated above I'll be pos^ng it on my site.

p.p.s. i'm interested in that character program too, if its being
distributed through email. if its on someones site, let us know!

p.p.p.s. if there's a macintosh version of a character program, i'd greatly
appreciate hearing about it. Thanks again.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 00:43:45 -0400
In-Reply-To: <01BB412D.EB0C3480@babylon5.netrek.org>

Stupid quesôn:

What is the dierence between MUD and mush?

Mak Pearson: Are you gonna keep this job for a likle while? ;-)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 23:34:49 -0600

At 12:43 AM 5/16/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Stupid quesôn:
>
>What is the dierence between MUD and mush?
>

Umm... Heh..

Mud - Mul^ User Dungeon
Mush - Mus^ User SHared-world (or something)

In essense, Mud's do lots of combat and give EXP's for killing... though
there are Mud's I like, I don't them visit much.

Mushes come with MUCH less built in code, but what I think is a more
powerful driver... In a Mush, normally, there is more emphasis on RP, since
coding up a combat, space-travel, or magick system is so ^me-consuming.

Basically, the dierence is in the driver's code... Mud's are more Combat
Oriented, and come with more built in DnD type systems already done. But you
can RP on a Mud, and ght on a Mush... especially on one I coded :)

Mud's are usually old-DnD fantasy type worlds.. the most popular Mushes are
based o RP games like Vampire, Bakletech, Star Wars and (hopefully it'll
be popular) Mythus :) -- or based o a movie or book series, or both.

As far as basic commands like 'look', 'say <something>' or whatever... they
aren't very dierent... all text, with an interface like your favorite
mid-eighês infocom games... the dierence being you're playing
with/against other people in real-^me.

And it's addic^ve as hell. :)

Thank you class, that will be all for today. :)

___
| \_/\/____ ____/ _/ \_ the Op^c line to the Server, down the
| |_) | ___|/` _ \| \_/ \ 56K to the ISP, then the T1...
| _ <| __>| /_\ | |_) ) NOTHING BUT NET."
| |_) | \| ` ' | \
__|____/|____|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 11:21:29 -0600

Subject: OFF TOPIC POST WARNING

Okay, I'm pos^ng something to the list because I need to get it to alot of
people out here, but I don't have the list of people to mail to directly
here at work.

I'm sorry, and I'm pos^ng this up to warn you that if you're not
interested, go ahead and Deleted Without Reading the post from me whose
subject line is:

'Update on Haven Feature character Availability'

I'll be pos^ng it in about 15 minutes.

Again, mea culpa.

___
| _ <| __>| /_\ | |_) ) NOTHING BUT NET."
| |_) | \| ` ' | \
__|____/|____|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 11:28:59 -0600
Subject: Update on Haven Feature character Availability
X-To: jackie@dimensional.com, Kat <maynn@primenet.com>,
Mark <mrclovis@teleport.com>, Ab <zim@iag.net>,
Lance <lweber@procard.com>,
sltd0@cc.usu.edu, Dale <Dkenyon@sunsh.usd.edu>,
Lee <lkenyon@sunsh.usd.edu>,
je@iag.net, Captain Howdy <jthenhau@sunowr.usd.edu>,
Steven Gullerud <gullerud@leland.Stanford.EDU>,
"Andrew D. McDowell" <mcdowad@mail.auburn.edu>

This here is the list of the Leads again, without most of the detail,
updated to show people who are now taken.

Those taken are marked with *=92s

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Duke Fernando di Co^llion*:=09
Duke=92s Assistant*: =20

Head of the Ducal Guard -- (tenta^vely 'Mikyl')=20

Nobles &Guildsman:

Blackbourne: The Blackbourne Family rst made its fortune through the
importaôn of ne fabrics.=20

Hamlin: A small, bald-headed man, Hamlin wears rather worn,
out-of-date ouits himself, despite the key role he plays in seing the
trends of fashion in Haven, and oven looks as if he has just slept in his
clothing.=20

Anson: The oldest son, Anson is always dressed in the
latest Blackbourne fashion styles, and has a frame that shows these garments
to good advantage; he always carries an elegant walking s^ck studded with
diamonds. Anson has one severe weakness, a fondness for cheap trollops; he
frequently spends his avernoons or early evenings at one of the many houses
of pros^tuôn that line the Street of Silk Veils (or the seedier ats
along the South End). =20

--
d'Avillez: =09

Conner*: =09
Stella*=20
Virago - the Illusionist. =96 a couple people are looking at this=
guy.
Alain - some are looking at Alain as well.

Antonio Berensten - A muscularly built young man with long, shaggy
blond hair and a bushy mustache, Antonio is one of Conner=92s wards. He has
been here in Haven for almost three years, and has become a major gure in
the Young Stallions movement. He possesses immense personal charisma, and
fervently believes in the righteousness of their cause. Antonio wears the
green cloak and brooch of the Stallions, but does not go in for the
elaborate accessories favored by some of the others.

Kaspan: -- interest has been expressed in this fellow by one of you.

--
DeKammeron: Boccaccio and Swayze de Kammeron are two young noblemen from the
lands around Kandai to the east of Haven. =20

Swayze*=20
Boccaccio*

De La Riis: The de la Riises are one of the most prominent and long-lived
aristocra^c households of Haven. =20

Tybalt: -- I won=92t be heartbroken if no-one wants to play Tybalt.=09

Harz: A husky, well-muscled man with gray-streaked dark hair, and a deeply
furrowed brow.=20

Paul*: The rebrand leader of the Young Stallions

Thomas: Thomas is three years Paul=92s junior, with sandy hair, brown=
eyes
and his fathers broad features.=20

Cor^na: Harz=92s daughter is a small but amply endowed girl, with long
brown hair and hazel eyes. Both of her older brothers are very protec^ve
of her; she longs to be independent, and oven develops impetuous crushes on
young gentlemen she meets (par^cularly if they are well-traveled).=20

Brunig: A stocky man with dark blond hair, and a robust appearance that
belies his age. Well known in Haven in his youth for his several victories
in city jous^ng tournaments, he has spent the last twenty years as a knight
in the military service of the late Viscount Kveklan. With the coronaôn
of the Viscounts son, Bruning was dismissed; the old warhorse is now chang
at the bit from inac^vity.

K=92maill: Kmaill is a voluptuous, raven-haired beauty who stands almost=
as
tall as her new husband. She dresses in exo^c color combinaôns that
reveal her gypsy upbringing, and also an amount of leg and d=E9colletage
considered shocking by those in ner society. =20

Morgan: Morgan is an ocer in Havens pres^gious Citadel Guard.=20

--

Geronde: The Geronde family was an old aristocra^c family that had fallen
upon hard ^mes, and lost most of its greatness un^l Lady Rowena became its
matriarch.=20

Rowena*=20
Karl*=20
Gunter*

Maggia - The family made its original fortune in the
winemaking business.. =20
=20
Romano: Gilbertos eighteen year old son, aecônately called Mano
by his family (and derisively by the Young Stallions), is a tall, wiry young
man with heavily pomaded black hair and a thin mustache.=20

Marita: A year younger than Romano, Marita has her fathers coloring
(skin, hair, and eyes), and very beau^ful, expressive features.=20

Romulo - Romulo Velasquez - Of all the ar^sts receiving Gilberto
Maggias support, Velasquez is the most favored; he has a small private
studio on Studio Lane, and receives a generous monthly s^pend. --

Savonna: The family retains substanâl feudal land holdings in the
north, now governed by Eklund's half-brother.=20

Donia: Quiet, very plain girl in her late teens; she is very nervous around
men. Years of perpetual browbea^ng from her strong-willed mother has badly
undermined her self-condence. She is well-versed in household skills,
especially sewing and embroidery (she designs and makes her own clothes).
Donia has burning ar^s^c desires that she keeps secret from Margery; she
has a sketch pad hidden in her room and draws the scenes she sees from her
window (these show talent despite her lack of formal training).=20

--
Varrasch - The Varrasch family are horse breeders and trainers, who in the
days before the rise of the Guilds in Haven
=20
Heidel: The current master of the major Freight and transport Guild ,
A hulking bear of a man, with immense and well-muscled shoulders, arms=20
and legs, almost completely bald; he is in his late 30=92s, and tends to act=
in=20
a fairly common fashion =96 his manners leave much to be desired.=20

Kronen: A barrel-chested, husky giant, Kronen is several inches
taller but somewhat thinner than his brother, with a shaggy mane of dirty
blond hair and a very long beard. He is an excepônally happy man, with a
loud booming laugh and not a care in the world. Kronen is considered the
smarter of the brothers, and handles most of the family=92s dealings with
other merchants

Enver: the Unbuckable, chief trainer for the Varrasches; tall and
lanky, he sports a curving scar on one cheek where he was kicked by a horse
as a youth. A friendly fellow, Enver is quite likely the best man with a
whip in the market or for several hundred miles around; his name adver^ses
the fact that no one has ever seen him y o a horse.

Joa the Bakarite =96 Master of the Golden Ducat

Sebasân Kalidor *: friend and some^me partner to Heidel Varrasch,
Mer Kalidor manages the Haven branch of Kalidor shipping, in partnership
with his father in Seki.

Head of the Centaur Trolley Barns =96 A mature Centaur with sharp wit.

Head of the Citadel Guard =96 A noble chrged with the upkeep of
=91Haven=92s Last Defense=92, the Citadel on Trade Island, home to the Guard
con^ngent composed en^rely of Noble blood.

Dean of the College of Haven =96 Located at Hypotenuese Square, the
College covers all the tradiônal topics of learning.

Master of Sorceror=92s Isle =96 Surrounded by rapids and not=
connected
to the mainland by any bridge, the small Isle is the home of the Circle
Council, the judge and jury for all mages in the city, and site of the
Haven=92s =91ocial=92 College of Magic.

Owner of the Mys^c Valley Inn- Raen*:=09

Entertainer=92s Guild
Rael Gavoke: A handsome man of middle years, Rael is as clever as a fox,
devious as a dragon, and just as charming.=20
Largo Profundo: A great round man, bearded, usually well-dressed; Largo
sings in a powerful bass that can be heard clear across town when he wishes,
and holds the rank of master Singer of the Guild.=20
Melisandre*: A young woman dressed plainly, as a commoner, unless
performing as a bard. She is otherwise rather plan and non-descript, and an
expert at not being no^ced, but somehow ends up involved in many things.

Kinalla - Mistress of Ambrosia House: And rumored to be the same
woman that founded the house over 300 years ago. Considered by most to be
quite beau^ful, she is raven-haired and dark-eyed, but feared by many for
her rumored longevity. She rarely entertains personally anymore, and is busy
in a behind-the-scenes way with about 90 percent of the poli^cs in the=
city.

Marick - Head of the Theive=92s Guild: A tall, ruggedly handsome=
sort
of fellow with a bushy beard and sparkling black eyes, Marick is The major
power in the guild.=20

Daruko Ken-Ursa: A proud, shrewd man and leader of the gypsies who
camp at the south end of Trade Island, numbering a close knit group of some
40 men, women, and children.=20

Cathedral of Haven
The Bishop in Haven is Carn ne-Seval, a tall broad-shouldered man of late
middle age; he has an imposing presence. He has been working (some would
say =91schemeing and manipula^ng=92) for many years to make the faith of=
the
All-Father the state religion of the region and he as the primate of all the
faiths in the Ten Ciês, but success is s^ll many years in the future -however, Carn has for^tude, courage, and, above all, a tenacity which would
do credit to a bear trap.

Head of the Crotorans:=20

Theodicu the Haggler*: the Bhas of the local order of Denarius.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Church of Eollana
Head Priestess (no name yet): of Eollana is a striking woman in her late
30=92s. She is of medium height and rela^vely slender, with long blonde=
hair
and black eyes.. She has borne seven daughters for the temple, the youngest
of whom is now 7, and all of whom (insofar as they are old enough to choose)
have elected to follow in their mother=92s footsteps.

Eollana Sub-Cults

Cult of Kafuzalum: =09
- Head of this cult Allyria *

Church of Dorian:
Thaliondium: a noble-browed alfar, is a the High Iniâte of the river god.

Head of the Church of Kol:=09

Kar: Goradoran: called Ravenswing, since even at his age of 65+ his hair is
s^ll a perfect black, and his back ramrod straight=20

___
_/ \ ___| oo\ _ CPU, and back to the the EtherCard. Over=20
| |_) | ___|/` _ \| \_/ \ the 56K to the ISP, to the T1... =20
| _ <| __>| /_\ | |_) ) NOTHING BUT NET."
| |_) | \| ` ' | \ =20
__|____/|____|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
hkp://www.dimensional.com/~bear/ =20
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 13:39:58 -0400
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960516053449.0069e3a0@dimensional.com>

Doyce
Thanks for the dierenâôn. So, here's one more:

How long do you think it'll take for "coders" to make Web-aware versions
of a mush? Not that anything super-complex would be involved, but s^ll
pictures or artwork would make it a lot of fun... :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 14:45:51 -0400
Subject: Mac Charc Generator

I've been thinking, and I know a whole lot about HyperCard. I think I could
create a Mac Charc Generator in HyperCard. What do people think?
Also, color makes it look beker, but also increases the size. And what
about the size of the window. What size screens are you guys using out there?
I'm telling you this now that if I do work on this, it will probably take a
very long ^me.

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 16:50:12 +0100
Subject: Re: Mac Charc Generator

>I've been thinking, and I know a whole lot about HyperCard. I think I could
>create a Mac Charc Generator in HyperCard. What do people think?
> Also, color makes it look beker, but also increases the size. And what
>about the size of the window. What size screens are you guys using out there?
> I'm telling you this now that if I do work on this, it will probably take a
>very long ^me.
>
>-Josuah

I could live with a Hypercard creator. I've been looking around and
obviously no one (besides ourselves) plays Mythus and has a Mac. :P

I've put together a few Excel worksheets for the game. The OP creator is
about the only one I s^ll use. It prints everything out as nice as you
please. But a full edged HP generator that could handle everything would
be fantas^c!! I could oer a few suggesôns if you're interested. I
don't know squat about the Hypercard programming language, but I do have
some ideas as to what should be incuded.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 16:03:45 -0600

At 01:39 PM 5/16/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Doyce>
>Thanks for the dierenâôn. So, here's one more:
>
>How long do you think it'll take for "coders" to make Web-aware versions
>of a mush? Not that anything super-complex would be involved, but s^ll
>pictures or artwork would make it a lot of fun... :)
>
>Jesse
>

Actually, there's already something like that somewhere in the works.. or so
I gather... there is a web-interface mush under construcôn now... but the
sovware's really rough. Give it a couple years. :)

___
| _ <| __>| /_\ | |_) ) NOTHING BUT NET."
| |_) | \| ` ' | \
__|____/|____|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 19:03:40 -0400

<<
I've put together a few Excel worksheets for the game. The OP creator is
about the only one I s^ll use. It prints everything out as nice as you
please. But a full edged HP generator that could handle everything would
be fantas^c!! I could oer a few suggesôns if you're interested. I
don't know squat about the Hypercard programming language, but I do have some
ideas as to what should be incuded.
>>

I'd love any suggesôns you have. Also, those Excel spreadsheets could help
me out, so, if you don't mind, I'd like a copy of them. If you've even got a
good spreadsheet format for character sheets, I can use it (or something
similiar) to print out the nished product.
How big is your screen? I usually make my projects 640x400, or PowerBook
size.

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 19:35:16 -0400

>>>> I've been looking around and
obviously no one (besides ourselves) plays Mythus and has a Mac.<<<<

Not so.....

For anyone interested, I have a FileMaker Pro 3.0 database for creaôn and
maintenance of HPs, OPs, etc's. I could probably dig up a 2.1 version of it
if necessary. Both versions work ne on either Mac or PC (Win), the 3.0
version requires Win95.

Actual creaôn is not it's strong point, but it denitely helps. It does
calculate Heka, BAC, etc.

It's use may require a bit of explainaôn as it was intended for my use (and
the players in my gaming group).

Later
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 20:05:20 -0400

<<
For anyone interested, I have a FileMaker Pro 3.0 database for creaôn and
maintenance of HPs, OPs, etc's.
>>

I've only got FileMaker 2.0. :(
Anyway, if you have any thoughts as well, share them.

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 20:24:12 -0500

>>I've been thinking, and I know a whole lot about HyperCard. I think I could
>>create a Mac Charc Generator in HyperCard. What do people think?
>> Also, color makes it look beker, but also increases the size. And what
>>about the size of the window. What size screens are you guys using out there?
>> I'm telling you this now that if I do work on this, it will probably take a
>>very long ^me.
>>
>>-Josuah
>
>I could live with a Hypercard creator. I've been looking around and
>obviously no one (besides ourselves) plays Mythus and has a Mac. :P
>
>I've put together a few Excel worksheets for the game. The OP creator is
>about the only one I s^ll use. It prints everything out as nice as you
>please. But a full edged HP generator that could handle everything would
>be fantas^c!! I could oer a few suggesôns if you're interested. I
>don't know squat about the Hypercard programming language, but I do have
>some ideas as to what should be incuded.
>
>Tom

Boo! hiss! I also have a Mac *AND* play Mythus. (FYI) ;)

I would suggest Pascal with the Mac, but I have not the ^me or experience
to tackle this at this point. However, if a program were coded and copied
to a Word Processing le, it could be accepted on a turbo Pascal, provided
you had a pascal program. I believe I could nd the pascal program if

someone had the code. Debugging the suble dierences would be
tricky....;)

I have used hyper stacks, but I am *very* rusty. I would be interested in
beta tes^ng. hint hint. :)

AJ=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 23:41:51 -0400
Subject: Mac Char stu

I don't remember who posted the respec^ve messages, so my apologies that
this goes to the list, but if whoever menôned them could mail me the
excel spreadsheets and the lemaker database (maybe a tabbed text le,
also?) I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance,
Charles
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 08:27:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Mac Char stu

I have a Mac and play Mythus, too. I haven't put together an automa^c
character generator but I have been working on extrac^ng all the HP
generaôn data from the rst book, cleaning it up, and puing together a
likle book for the players to use when they want to roll a new HP. I don't
know about you, but I just love the feel of dice rolling around in myhand and
I wouldn't want to give up that to a computer.

Anyway, my booklet is in Publish-It Easy! 2.1.9 format, which is no longer
viable as Timeworks is out of business. If someone is interested I will
convert it to a more common Wo or page layout format for the Mac
(ClarisWorks, perhaps?)

let me knowx
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 12:44:05 +0100

>I have a Mac and play Mythus, too. I haven't put together an automa^c
>character generator but I have been working on extrac^ng all the HP

> generaôn data from the rst book, cleaning it up, and puing together a
>likle book for the players to use when they want to roll a new HP. I don't
>know about you, but I just love the feel of dice rolling around in myhand and
>I wouldn't want to give up that to a computer.
>
>Anyway, my booklet is in Publish-It Easy! 2.1.9 format, which is no longer
>viable as Timeworks is out of business. If someone is interested I will
>convert it to a more common Wo or page layout format for the Mac
>(ClarisWorks, perhaps?)
>
>let me knowx

Cool. Yes, I'd like to see what you've done. You know, it occured to me
the other day that with all the ^me Mythus has been out of print and
buried by TSR, we all could have pitched together and could have produced a
viable 2nd ediôn by now...in a perfect world, that is. But I like the
idea of a Player's Companion to help with HP design and the like. I know I
put together a "JM's Companion" from ar^cles in MMM and DI. It's a BIG
help (I don't have to lug around four dierent notebooks anymore).

So go ahead and convert your stu, Donald.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 15:23:42 -0400


>I would suggest Pascal with the Mac, but I have not the ^me or experience
>to tackle this at this point. However, if a program were coded and copied
>to a Word Processing le, it could be accepted on a turbo Pascal, provided
>you had a pascal program. I believe I could nd the pascal program if
>someone had the code. Debugging the suble dierences would be
>tricky....;)
>
>I have used hyper stacks, but I am *very* rusty. I would be interested in
>beta tes^ng. hint hint. :)

Gotcha. When I nish, I'll be asking for beta testers over this list, so
just speak up then. :)

I don't know Pascal well enough to write a program. The only thing I do know
well enough to write a GUI for is HyperCard, and I guess I could in C/C++,
but it would probably crash.

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 15:25:07 -0400


>>Anyway, my booklet is in Publish-It Easy! 2.1.9 format, which is no longer
>>viable as Timeworks is out of business. If someone is interested I will
>>convert it to a more common Wo or page layout format for the Mac
>>(ClarisWorks, perhaps?)

Sounds interes^ng. Send me a copy, please, if you have the ^me.

-Josuah
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 22:10:54 +0200

At 23:34 15-05-96 -0600, you wrote:
>Mud - Mul^ User Dungeon
>Mush - Mus^ User SHared-world (or something)
[]
>
>As far as basic commands like 'look', 'say <something>' or whatever... they
>aren't very dierent... all text, with an interface like your favorite
>mid-eighês infocom games... the dierence being you're playing
>with/against other people in real-^me.
[]

Any one interested in MUSHing while the guys on the other side of the pond
are s^ll sleeping? Anybody in GMT+1?

Or will this be an All-American Mush?

Harold Stringer
biopharm@xs4all.nl
_____________________________________________________________________

Work: Private:
1315 KT Almere Tel/Fax +31 - (0)36 53 64 798

The Netherlands
Tel +31 - (0)36 53 43 445
Fax +31 - (0)36 53 47 265


_____________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 20:24:17 GMT
From: Steve Wineld <49@DIAL.PIPEX.COM>
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19960517221450.138f07fe@xs4all.nl>

>
> Any one interested in MUSHing while the guys on the other side of the pond
> are s^ll sleeping? Anybody in GMT+1?

ME! ME! ME!

Bilal (Aka Steve Wineld)

Market Harborough
Leicester
England
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 10:42:44 GMT
In-Reply-To: <MAPI.Id.0016.006c3439202020204446373230303033@MAPI.to.RFC822>

> >
> > Any one interested in MUSHing while the guys on the other side
of the pond
> > are s^ll sleeping? Anybody in GMT+1?
>
> ME! ME! ME!
>
> Bilal (Aka Steve Wineld)
>
> Market Harborough
> Leicester
> England

Oh god. Bilal the Scoundrel's found this list too has he?

Sounds fascina^ng, I'll have a go.

Mark Trickek, are you into this?

Mark Goode
Leicester,
England.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 15:03:21 -0600

At 10:42 AM 5/15/96 GMT, you wrote:
>> >
>> > Any one interested in MUSHing while the guys on the other side
>of the pond
>> > are s^ll sleeping? Anybody in GMT+1?
>>
>> ME! ME! ME!
>>
>> Bilal (Aka Steve Wineld)
>>
>> Market Harborough
>> Leicester
>> England
>
>Oh god. Bilal the Scoundrel's found this list too has he?
>
>Sounds fascina^ng, I'll have a go.
>

Speaking from experience, it's not dicult to enjoy yourself even if
you're on the other side of the pond. People in the US who are into the net
keep wierd hours anyway, so there are certain hours of overlap.

For reference, the Haven is setup in Mountain Standard Time right now... and
should stay there for a good long ^me.

___
| _ <| __>| /_\ | |_) ) NOTHING BUT NET."
| |_) | \| ` ' | \
__|____/|____|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 16:32:11 -0500

>I have a Mac and play Mythus, too. I haven't put together an automa^c
>character generator but I have been working on extrac^ng all the HP
> generaôn data from the rst book, cleaning it up, and puing together a
>likle book for the players to use when they want to roll a new HP. I don't
>know about you, but I just love the feel of dice rolling around in myhand and
>I wouldn't want to give up that to a computer.
>
>Anyway, my booklet is in Publish-It Easy! 2.1.9 format, which is no longer
>viable as Timeworks is out of business. If someone is interested I will
>convert it to a more common Wo or page layout format for the Mac
>(ClarisWorks, perhaps?)
>
>let me knowx

This sounds Great! I would love to try it out. :)

Claris 3.0 or 4.0?

AJ=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 19:15:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Mac Char stu and the 'archives'
In-Reply-To: <v01530500adc2407ac46d@[206.68.74.107]>

Hey gang,

Any chance of geing this Mac stu on the FTP site? I would love to
take a look at all of it, and it seems there are more of us Mac users out
here than was rst thought (;^))...seems easier than all of us asking
for it privately.

Same goes for the 'cheat sheets' of rules that people are puing
together; I'd sure like to see those, and I bet that goes for most everyone.

And if I ever nish the stu I'm working on, I promise I'll throw it on
the site as well.

Ciao,
Patrick

(anxious to see this stu and lucky enough to have FM Pro 3.0!)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 23:29:42 -0500
From: Charlie Carlin <magna@NFINITY.COM>

I'd like to get into the MUSH too pls.
Thanks

--Charlie
magna@nnity.com
Charlie Carlin
402-397-0981
magna@nnity.com
"An infringemnt of jus^ce anywhere, is a threat to jus^ce everywhere" -Mar^n Luther King Jr.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 09:41:38 +0100
From: Kevin Drury <Kevin@GOOGLY.DEMON.CO.UK>

In message <960516200519_536820874@emout10.mail.aol.com>, Wesley Miaw
<Josuah@AOL.COM> writes
><<
>For anyone interested, I have a FileMaker Pro 3.0 database for creaôn and
>maintenance of HPs, OPs, etc's.
>>>
>
>I've only got FileMaker 2.0. :(
> Anyway, if you have any thoughts as well, share them.
>
>-Josuah

I'm interested. Having Just started my rst Mythus campaign and having
great fun with 6 players spending their rst 5 hour session crea^ng
half of their HPs :).

Means I'll have to dig out the old SE30 though (can't remember what
version of FileMaker it has on it). Please send me a copy of the
database am very keen to have a look.

Remember that the best things in life are hairy! - Kev Drury
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 14:37:53 +0300
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19960517221450.138f07fe@xs4all.nl> from "Harold
Stringer, Ridascreen-Biopharm B.V." at May 17, 96 10:10:54 pm

> Any one interested in MUSHing while the guys on the other side of the pond
> are s^ll sleeping? Anybody in GMT+1?
>
> Or will this be an All-American Mush?

I'm in GMT+2(Finland) and I'll at least try that MUSH when it's
ready. I hope there will be more guys from this side of pond...

Yours Kautsu.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 15:15:06 -0600
Subject: Haven Mailing list.
X-To: Timothy Walsh <ash@nnity.com>,
Jesse <jgris@acsu.Bualo.EDU>,
Steven Gullerud <gullerud@leland.Stanford.EDU>,
"Andrew D. McDowell" <mcdowad@mail.auburn.edu>,
Jason Sloan <jsloan@blkbox.COM>

Hello everyone, this is directed to those interested in the Haven-Mush,
using the Mythus rules...

Okay, new mailing list: so I can stop spamming the Mythus_L list with stu.

haven@procard.com - a general mailing list for players on Haven.
To join it, send mail to haven-request@procard.com and say SUBSCRIBE
in the text of the message.

Those interested or whom have already claimed 'dibs' on a player should add
this soon.

___
| _ <| __>| /_\ | |_) ) NOTHING BUT NET."
| |_) | \| ` ' | \
__|____/|____|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 14:45:43 -0500

I seem to remember someone pos^ng a message complaining that there is
no "mid-way" system between Mythus and Mythus Prime. I was out looking
arround on the net and found a system that may be what you are looking for.
Try "hkp://www.ccsi.com/~graball/ragnarok/ysgarth.html"
Although it's not exactly Mythus...it has it's advantages.

********************************************************************
*********************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 14:40:45 -0600

At 02:45 PM 5/23/96 -0500, you wrote:
> I seem to remember someone pos^ng a message complaining that there is
>no "mid-way" system between Mythus and Mythus Prime. I was out looking
>arround on the net and found a system that may be what you are looking for.
> Try "hkp://www.ccsi.com/~graball/ragnarok/ysgarth.html"
> Although it's not exactly Mythus...it has it's advantages.
>

Once I get done actually CODING it, I'll probably post something on
Prime/Advanced combo system I'm using on Haven (the ubiquitous mush using
the Mythus rules.).
___
| _ <| __>| /_\ | |_) ) NOTHING BUT NET."
| |_) | \| ` ' | \
__|____/|____|__/~\__|__|\__\ @dimensional.com_______________________
Doyce Testerman
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 19:27:48 -0400
Subject: What's Up with projects??

Hi all. I was curious about a few things...

(1) As far as I know, Sean is s^ll here. So, Sean, what's up with geing
MMM distributed on the Internet or a web site (or AOL or whatever?). Are
they going to let you do it?

(2) So, what's up with Loren K. Wiseman and the process of geing the
script to ASCALON.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 22:22:44 -0700
Subject: Re: What's Up with projects??

At 07:27 PM 5/24/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi all. I was curious about a few things...
>
>(1) As far as I know, Sean is s^ll here. So, Sean, what's up with geing
>MMM distributed on the Internet or a web site (or AOL or whatever?). Are
>they going to let you do it?
>
>(2) So, what's up with Loren K. Wiseman and the process of geing the
>script to ASCALON.

I have been sadly derilict I my duês, and I formally apologize.
My Campaign is star^ng up, and without enough support material its been
dicult, not to menôn the real word problems with two take home midterms
last week, twenty hours of lab class this week, and construc^ng plasmids
for the molecular biology lab I work in, over the last two weeks-this is in
addiôn to regular classes. Enough bitching about my life-I will complete
the leker I began two weeks ago and send it.

BTW, Sean, can we get it(Ascalon) without fear of li^gaôn???

My campaign(everyone bloody wants to be a FP dweomercraver-what a surprise)

presently consists of a druid of Kell stock from weatern Lyonesse, an elven
spell-singer, and a human outland(read barbarian) warrior from a group of
semicivilized tribes west of Kalevala, and south of sea of Pahjola. Two
other characters are incuba^ng.(BTW my world is only weakly based on
Aerth-I use Epic of Aerth as a sourcebook for many Ideas, not as a campaign
world)-now I will have to get them together and get them to be friends- this
should be a preky likle nightmare of crea^ve gymnas^cs.

Will write over the weekend(there's a Con here in LA this weekend-I'd like
to go-we'll see)

Symbiote lives on

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 05:27:53 -0700
Subject: Re: Merchandise

At 12:05 PM 2/20/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>From ^me to ^me, I have no^ced people wan^ng DJ merchandise that they
>can't seem to nd. If any of you want some DJ stu, I know where you can
>get it. At least one of everything (Mythus, Mythus Magic, Epic of Aerth,
>Necropolis, even some Journey's Magazines)
>

Is it just me or is the Besâry prac^cally impossible to nd??
Mike

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 23:28:19 -0400

Chris,
I know of two Beasâries for sale here in Portland. Let me know if you
want me to pick one up for you.

Jason
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 02:45:23 -0400
Subject: Herbs list online

First of all, I want to apologize for my last message, in which I
publicized my en^rely unacceptable for public viewing website. Now, with
that out of the way, as of tonight there is a legible, not fancy, but
legible version of the herbs list at:

hkp://home.ptd.net/~hagendaz/herbs.html

There's currently nothing else at all at the site, as I'm reworking it
before allowing it online again, but hopefully this should be of some use
to the list.

PLEASE mail me comments, suggesôns, any feedback at all!!!

Thanks, and apologies again for the previous state of the page,

Charles Hagenbuch
hagendaz@prolog.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 17:21:14 +0100

>At 12:05 PM 2/20/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>>From ^me to ^me, I have no^ced people wan^ng DJ merchandise that they
>>can't seem to nd. If any of you want some DJ stu, I know where you can
>>get it. At least one of everything (Mythus, Mythus Magic, Epic of Aerth,
>>Necropolis, even some Journey's Magazines)
>>
>
>Is it just me or is the Besâry prac^cally impossible to nd??
>Mike
>
>
>Chris Calvert
>
>calvert@ucla.edu

It's just you. I can nd it preky easily, along with most of the rest of
the books.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 23:41:33 -0700
From: Michael John Weaver <aikido@CRIS.COM>
Subject: Players Wanted in San Antonio/Houston Texas

Journey Master seeks players in San Antonio or Houston Texas.
Game sessions can be run twice a month in Houston and once a week in
San Antonio. All experience levels welcome. Please E-mail aikido@cris.com
if interested.

Sincerely,
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 02:30:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Players Wanted in San Antonio/Houston Texas


>San Antonio. All experience levels welcome. Please E-mail aikido@cris.com
>if interested.

Unfortunately, I'm in Portland, Oregon. But it is interes^ng to note that
we share interests in aikido and mythus!
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 03:06:52 -0400
From: "Michael J. Weaver" <aikido@CRIS.COM>

At 02:30 AM 5/28/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>San Antonio. All experience levels welcome. Please E-mail aikido@cris.com
>>if interested.
>
>Unfortunately, I'm in Portland, Oregon. But it is interes^ng to note that
>we share interests in aikido and mythus!
>
I agree it is interes^ng. Do you play or JM Mythus? Why did you choose
Aikido over Karate,Kung-Fu etc. Thanks for the note keep the game alive.
Watch for my next post on making a MYTHUS movement known by going to
convenôns. Just an idea ask the TSR reps about it and take over one of the
gaming rooms for MYTHUS sessions. A Con in Dallas in July(I think) I'll post it.

Sincerely,
Michael
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 14:06:15 -0400

>(1) As far as I know, Sean is s^ll here. So, Sean, what's up with geing
>MMM distributed on the Internet or a web site (or AOL or whatever?). Are
>they going to let you do it?

I have to admit that I, too, have been delinquent in my duês.
:( I'll get on it this week.

>BTW, Sean, can we get it(Ascalon) without fear of li^gaôn???

I'll ask Connie about it. It may come down to how the ownership
is transferred - technically, it is s^ll an unpublished manuscript,
and if it remains so, I don't think TSR has any say in it. So,
maybe if he transfers the ownership to the list, or to the public
domain??? Any other ideas?
*The Gen Con 1996 registraôn book is online at the sites above*
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 20:27:24 -0400


>I agree it is interes^ng. Do you play or JM Mythus? Why did you choose
>Aikido over Karate,Kung-Fu etc. Thanks for the note keep the game alive.
>Watch for my next post on making a MYTHUS movement known by going to
>convenôns. Just an idea ask the TSR reps about it and take over one of the
>gaming rooms for MYTHUS sessions. A Con in Dallas in July(I think) I'll post
>it.

I chose Aikido because I liked it's emphasis on using the akackers energy
against him. It has alot to oer philosophically and it is very subtle.

I haven't been able to nd any players for MYTHUS so I'm stuck in AD&D. :)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 19:10:06 -0700

Subject: MYTHUS & Convenôns

I think one way to contribute to the MYTHUS game would be to help
increase the number of players. With this in mind I encourage all Journey
Masters and MYTHUS players to akend gaming convenôns,at least those in
your area. Taking your MYTHUS books(for JM's) to these convenôns and
star^ng "unocial" games in the available gaming rooms might help
expand the number of players in MYTHUS. Gaming groups could akend as a
group and encourage newcomers to join in a session. One could s^ll of
course par^cipate in any ocial game they wanted. Don't forget to ask
the convenôn coordinators why MYTHUS wasn't included and if it will be
next year. You might also make a habit of stopping by any TSR display and
asking about thier plans for MYTHUS. With all this in mind here is the
informaôn for the next convenôn in my area(I live in San Antonio the
cons in Dallas)

DALLASCON 96
The Dallas-Ft.Worth
Adventure Gaming Convenôn
June 28,29,30, 1996
The Sheraton Grand Hotel(214)929-8400 [$72.00]
Dallas, Texas
Hwy 114 and Esters Blvd

Good gaming,
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 10:05:05 +0000

> At 02:30 AM 5/28/96 -0400, you wrote:
> >In a message dated 96-05-28 01:26:43 EDT, you write:
> >
> >>San Antonio. All experience levels welcome. Please E-mail
> >>aikido@cris.com if interested.
> >
> >Unfortunately, I'm in Portland, Oregon. But it is interes^ng to
> >note that we share interests in aikido and mythus!
> >
> I agree it is interes^ng. Do you play or JM Mythus? Why did you
> choose Aikido over Karate,Kung-Fu etc. Thanks for the note keep the
> game alive. Watch for my next post on making a MYTHUS movement known
> by going to convenôns. Just an idea ask the TSR reps about it and
> take over one of the gaming rooms for MYTHUS sessions. A Con in
> Dallas in July(I think) I'll post it.
>
> Sincerely,
> Michael
> >

This must be the Mythus players that prac^ce Aikido List......

Because, I also do the same.... and I both play and JM.

Daniel.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 23:25:46 -0400

>I chose Aikido because I liked it's emphasis on using the akackers energy
>against him. It has alot to oer philosophically and it is very subtle.

I also like the emphasis on using the akackers energy and movement for ones
own self defense. I believe it or not contacted a Aikido dojo aver seeing
the movie Above The Law with Steven Seagal. Aver I began studies and came
aware of the founder I read The Spirit Of Aikido by Kisshomaru Ueshiba. The
philosophy was exactly in line with my own. I had previously taken a few
Kempo Kung-Fu classes and was disturbed that the students that were the most
violent and agressive in nature seemed to progress the fastest. The
atmosphere of violence didn't sit right with me. This is not to say that I
am pacist just that Aikido in my mind oers a more reasonable measured
response approach. Granted in some situaôns I s^ll feel that you might
have to inict some injury to get away but I try to prac^ce being alert
enough to stay out of those situaôns.
>
>I haven't been able to nd any players for MYTHUS so I'm stuck in AD&D. :)

Do you play 1st or 2nd ed AD&D. Convince the group to change. Maybe
explaining that Gary Gygax(the creator of AD&D) wrote MYTHUS would help.
Then there is that famous lawsuit between TSR and Gary Gygax(a company suing
its founder,sigh).
Anyway Gygax departed fron TSR around the ^me AD&D was talking about 2nd
ed. and the suit alleged that Gygax began work on MYYHUS while under
contract with TSR. This was sekled out of court with undisclosed
condiôns. The point of all this rambling is I feel that perhaps MYTHUS is
at least very close :) to what Gygax invisioned AD&D 2nd ed. should have
been. I nd no fault with AD&D 1st ed. but could launch into a array of
akacks on TSR about 2nd ed. However,if 2nd ed is the game thats there to
play then I understand and by all means make the most of it. You might try
adver^sing via this MYTHUS-L list and pos^ng on the newsgroups for players
I found players this way! newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
and rec.games.frp.announce

Good gaming,
Michael
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 23:35:35 -0400

>This must be the Mythus players that prac^ce Aikido List......
>
>Because, I also do the same.... and I both play and JM.
>
>Daniel,

Obviously MYTHUS and Aikido akracts intelligent,interes^ng people.
>
>Thanks for the note.

Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 04:15:45 -0400
Subject: Returned mail
X-To: MYTHUS-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU.

Whenever I post anything on this list I get about 25 returned users unknown
mail. Is there anyway to run a test post and eliminate the inac^ve accounts
from the list?

Thanks,
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 10:37:37 -0400
Subject: Re: MYTHUS & Convenôns

>You might also make a habit of stopping by any TSR display and
>asking about thier plans for MYTHUS.

Actually, if you do this, you're not going to be helping the

situaôn - most of the TSR people you see at cons have no control
about what games TSR is going to keep in play and which they're
going to close, and the few that do have control over that aren't
likely to be willing to talk about it in public, anyway.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 12:36:30 -0500
In-Reply-To: <199605290119.SAA07963@sd-dns-1.wanet.net>

On Tue, 28 May 1996, Daniel Pickek wrote:

> This must be the Mythus players that prac^ce Aikido List......
>
> Because, I also do the same.... and I both play and JM.
>
> Daniel.
>

I agree!! I also prac^ce Aikido... Is there some sort of conspiricy
going on here?

********************************************************************
*********************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 13:59:57 -0400
Subject: Aikido and DJ
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960529123518.5445A-100000@mallard.duc.auburn.edu>

Well, I hate to add fuel to any conspiracy-theory re, but count me in
as well. At least, I *was* ac^vely prac^cing aikido un^l I broke my
arm, and I *would* be playing Mythus if I could nd any players in the
RTP area of NC...

Ciao,
Patrick M.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 14:40:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Aikido and DJ

OK, OK, I give up. Add me to the conspiracy. Aikido and Mythus. Play and
JM.. actually I rarely get to play which is obviously the fault of another
(un-named) list member who seems to prefer DMing AD&D.

(Yes, I typed that with a smile on my face)...

Perhaps the connecôn has to do with being non-conformists. Aikido 'cause
its a marâl art where you don't get to kick anyone, and Mythus 'cause its
on TSRs "black" list (or is that brown list).

Later.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 17:27:06 -0400

At 10:37 AM 5/29/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>You might also make a habit of stopping by any TSR display and
>>asking about thier plans for MYTHUS.
>
>Actually, if you do this, you're not going to be helping the
>situaôn - most of the TSR people you see at cons have no control
>about what games TSR is going to keep in play and which they're
>going to close, and the few that do have control over that aren't
>likely to be willing to talk about it in public, anyway.
>*The Gen Con 1996 registraôn book is online at the sites above*
>
>Dear Mr. Reynolds,

The point of the convenôn post was not that a person would be able to nd
the
President of TSR and convince him to support MYTHUS. The point is
demonstra^ng to TSR that there is a market for this product. You say that
inquiring of TSR representa^ves at convenôns will not be helping the
situaôn. The only way this seems to make sense is either TSR
representa^ves don't report any signicant trends they no^ce at
convenôns or the people at TSR that do control which games con^nue to get
support don't listen to the feedback oered
from the convenôn representa^ves. Either one of these explanaôns would
be reec^ve of both poor public relaôns and business prac^ces.

On to more posi^ve suggesôns:Another employee of TSR stated that he knew
there was an audience for MYTHUS but perhaps not big enough to jus^fy TSR
con^nuing to support this game. In that light I suggest that TSR consider
doing what many larger corporaôns and the government does on a regular
basis,subcontract. A smaller publisher or gaming company could pay TSR for
the rights to publish and distribute all Dangerous Journeys material
including anything new for the system. This could be set up like a licensing
agreement. TSR could even include a reasonable percentage of prot and/or
sales in the agreement. TSR would s^ll hold all trademarks and copyrights
but the subcontractor would have the right to use them for a set number of
years. In this manner TSR would see some nancial gain from owning these
copyrights,trademarks,etc., which are useless if not used,without taking the
same risk involved in publishing the material itself. Now of course if TSR
only holds and acquires these trademarks and copyrights in order to
eliminate compe^ôn to themselves and in the gaming industry they would
not be interested in such a proposal. I myself fail to see the threat from a
line of products TSR feels there is not enough demand to support.

I look forward to your reply and invite others on this list to please chime
in with your comments,ideas,and opinions on anything in this post.

Good gaming,
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 03:26:47 -0400


>Actually, if you do this, you're not going to be helping the
>situaôn - most of the TSR people you see at cons have no control
>about what games TSR is going to keep in play and which they're
>going to close, and the few that do have control over that aren't
>likely to be willing to talk about it in public, anyway.

Sean, what would you suggest instead?

Jason
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 03:26:49 -0400



>same risk involved in publishing the material itself. Now of course if TSR
>only holds and acquires these trademarks and copyrights in order to
>eliminate compe^ôn to themselves and in the gaming industry they would
>not be interested in such a proposal. I myself fail to see the threat from a
>line of products TSR feels there is not enough demand to support.

Exactly! Any other fantasy RPG on the market is necessarily going to cut
into AD&D's market. Therefor, TSR would be foolish to release the game and
run the risk of it becoming a big player, or even a mediocre player. It just
doesn't make sense. I don't think they'll ever do anything with it. I'd
suggest not was^ng any energy campaigning for it's revival or geing your
hopes up.

Sorry to be a bummer,

Jason

PS Remember, don't ght, blend. :)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 00:44:40 -0700

At 11:28 PM 5/26/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Chris,
> I know of two Beasâries for sale here in Portland. Let me know if you
>want me to pick one up for you.

How much can you get one for??

Or both

MIke

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 10:07:39 +0200


At 12:36 29-05-96 -0500, you wrote:
>On Tue, 28 May 1996, Daniel Pickek wrote:
[]
>
> I agree!! I also prac^ce Aikido... Is there some sort of conspiricy
>going on here?
>
Nope, no conspiracy. I like Gen Wa Kai Karate (a full contact s^le with
Kendo-like protecôn/armor). Tried Aikido for a while, but found that even
the guys who had trained Aikido for more than 5 years could not stop a
straight punch (jodan-tsuki) or straight kick (mae-geri).

Although I appreciate the though behind Aikido, my experience is that one
needs to train Aikido for a *very* long ^me to be able to use it against an
*experienced* ghter. Emphasis for this par^cular relaônship. Against
inexperienced assailants it works quite OK.

IMO, a good combinaôn is to train both oensive and defensive arts of
Budo. But that would cost me too much ^me :(

Harold Stringer
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 02:06:31 -0700

At 12:25 AM 4/19/96 +0100, you wrote:
There
>>was a mockup page published in the original material released for DD/DJ, and
>>it had a page lis^ng the ar^cles that would be known as "Deital Basics".
>>I suspect the lists of Deiês that appeared in MMM were originally to be
>>placed in Epic as well.

Can I get this from someone please??

I am star^ng campaign now and I really need anything I can get.

THank You

Mike

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 05:19:30 -0400

At 10:07 AM 5/30/96 +0200, you wrote:
>At 12:36 29-05-96 -0500, you wrote:
>>On Tue, 28 May 1996, Daniel Pickek wrote:
>[]
>>
>> I agree!! I also prac^ce Aikido... Is there some sort of conspiricy
>>going on here?
>>
>Nope, no conspiracy. I like Gen Wa Kai Karate (a full contact s^le with
>Kendo-like protecôn/armor). Tried Aikido for a while, but found that even
>the guys who had trained Aikido for more than 5 years could not stop a
>straight punch (jodan-tsuki) or straight kick (mae-geri).

One of the rst things I learned was how to defend against a straight
punch with kote gaeshi and many other immobilizaôns and projecôns. How
long a person has been prac^cing must be balanced with how oven and
seriously they train. Do you know the various rankings of these people that
could not stop a basic punch?
>
>Although I appreciate the though behind Aikido, my experience is that one
>needs to train Aikido for a *very* long ^me to be able to use it against an
>*experienced* ghter. Emphasis for this par^cular relaônship. Against
>inexperienced assailants it works quite OK.

I agree that the basics are easier to apply in real life situaôns against
inexperienced ghters. However,with two comparably trained individuals
Aikido will defend itself against any other self defense form quite well.(ie
Steven Seagal) You say that you appreciate the thought behind Aikido yet you
seem to miss the point of the philosophy. The philosophy is that it is more
ethical to train,learn,and prac^ce a form of self defense that u^lizes the
akackers energy instead of projec^ng your own nega^ve energy into the
universe and that it is beker to defend yourself while causing minimum pain
and injury(possibly none) to another human being.
>
>IMO, a good combinaôn is to train both oensive and defensive arts of
>Budo. But that would cost me too much ^me :(

I agree that it is good to know another marâl art to fall back on but not
that it has to be oensive Judo in my opinion would be just as good of an
opôn.

It may interest you to know that Ueshiba the founder of Aikido remained
completely undefeated in many challenges without harming an opponent up to

his death at 89 years of age by using only Aikido.

Well enough posturing I'm sure your style has its merits and if you nd in
it what you are comfortable with then by all means make the most of its
teachings and I wish you the best success in your chosen style.

Sincerely,
Michael
>
>Harold Stringer
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 07:16:26 -0400
Subject: Re: HTH-Non-Lethal

Here is a puzzler.

On 221-3 in vol.1, when the rules cover HTH-Non-Lethal akacks, there is no
menôn of the role of heka engendered armor. This is not important in the
overpowering rules but it could be crucial in the stunning rules.

Does anyone have any suggesôns on how to integrate heka armor into these
rules?
If not, or even if yes, does anyone have a beker set of HTH-Non-Lethal
rules?

Your pardon if this has been covered ad nauseum elsewhen.

Tim Francis

"Their vanity is not only greedy, but restless and jealous; it will grant
nothing, whilst it demands everything, but is ready to beg and quarrel at the
same ^me."
--- Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America (Mentor: 251).
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 10:06:50 -0400
Subject: Why sov styles are beker for moi...
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19960530101103.1c17c324@xs4all.nl>

On Thu, 30 May 1996, Harold Stringer, Ridascreen-Biopharm B.V. wrote:

> > I agree!! I also prac^ce Aikido... Is there some sort of conspiricy
> >going on here?

> >
> Nope, no conspiracy. I like Gen Wa Kai Karate (a full contact s^le with
> Kendo-like protecôn/armor). Tried Aikido for a while, but found that even
> the guys who had trained Aikido for more than 5 years could not stop a
> straight punch (jodan-tsuki) or straight kick (mae-geri).
>
> Although I appreciate the though behind Aikido, my experience is that one
> needs to train Aikido for a *very* long ^me to be able to use it against an
> *experienced* ghter. Emphasis for this par^cular relaônship. Against
> inexperienced assailants it works quite OK.
>
> IMO, a good combinaôn is to train both oensive and defensive arts of
> Budo. But that would cost me too much ^me :(

OK, leave to the full-contact prac^ôner to s^r up all us aikido
fans... ;^)

I also have to wonder about your experience with aikido; most of the guys
I know are quite capable of handling themselves against other marâl
arts. I'm not sugges^ng aikido is any beker than any other marâl
art (though...), just that it holds its own.

My most prac^cal reason for liking aikido...I've studied tae kwon do and
agree it's nice to learn how to strike. But I'm 5'9". What if I'm
gh^ng someone who's 6'5"? Aikido is the only marâl art I've been
exposed to that gives me another viable opôn besides running like hell...
I'd much rather try to immobilize him than trade blows with him, and for
some striking arts, this is the only way it can happen.

One nal point: I haven't been doing aikido for that long, but since day
one I have been avoiding strikes and using that energy against people.
And moreover, I've been prac^cing this with a partner, who is encouraged
to vary akacks. In tae kwon do I had much less sparring prac^ce. It
would seem that someone studying aikido should be able to perform in
real-life situaôns much earlier in his training than the prac^ôner
of tae kwon do.

OK, lecture's over, but beyond the great philosophy of aikido there is
also some great training potenâl. Not that you might not be able to
beat the crap out of me with your karate, but hey, that's the rst thing
I learned in aikido...how to fall!

Peace,
Patrick

(of course, for striking I prefer my ASP tac^cal baton)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 16:22:09 +0200

Subject: [OFF] Marâl Arts / Budo

Dear Michael,

At 05:19 30-05-96 -0400, you wrote:
> One of the rst things I learned was how to defend against a straight
>punch with kote gaeshi and many other immobilizaôns and projecôns. How
>long a person has been prac^cing must be balanced with how oven and
>seriously they train. Do you know the various rankings of these people that
>could not stop a basic punch?

Don't know the level exactly, but he wore a hakama (if I remember the name
correctly). The diculty I no^ced that especially with new comers to
Aikido (like me), that it is a very complex system. A lot depends on very
subtle clues you have to read in your opponents stance and aitude. During
basic prac^ce, when you know what is going to happen, this was all
manageble. We once tried sparring (the stupid "style-versus-style" debate),
and I no^ced he couldn't block the hard and very fast tsuki's and geri's.

I stopped with Aikido more because I didn't like the aitude of the Dojo: a
lax and non-serious. Too much play.

>I agree that the basics are easier to apply in real life situaôns against
>inexperienced ghters. However,with two comparably trained individuals
>Aikido will defend itself against any other self defense form quite well.(ie
>Steven Seagal)
You say that you appreciate the thought behind Aikido yet you
>seem to miss the point of the philosophy. The philosophy is that it is more
>ethical to train,learn,and prac^ce a form of self defense that u^lizes the
>akackers energy instead of projec^ng your own nega^ve energy into the
>universe and that it is beker to defend yourself while causing minimum pain
>and injury(possibly none) to another human being.

I didn't miss the point. I agree with the thought of not harming your
opponent when defending yourself, but I found defending myself much more
dicult this way. So, even though I prefer not to harm anyone (I'd rather
run away, as we are legally required to do in my country), I will defend
myself by any means when cornered.
For this reason I would even prefer using a pepper-spray than use Karate
techniques, because the akacker then can sue me for damages.
(This really happened: a police ocer found a burglar in his house at
night, he summoned him to stand and be arrested, but the burglar akacked
the him. The police ocer broke the burglars jaw, and subsequently
transferred him to the police staôn. In a trial later, the burglar sued
the police ocer for bodily harm, and the police ocer had to pay him $500)

[]
>I agree that it is good to know another marâl art to fall back on but not
>that it has to be oensive Judo in my opinion would be just as good of an

>opôn.

I have trained Judo. In contrast to Aikido, Judo has become to rely more on
strength than technique, I'm sad to say. That's why I tried Aikido.

>Well enough posturing I'm sure your style has its merits and if you nd in
>it what you are comfortable with then by all means make the most of its
>teachings and I wish you the best success in your chosen style.

My previous pos^ng was not intended as the well-known "style-versus-style"
debate. Every thing depends on how hard and serious one trains, whether in
Aikido or other Budo arts.

Back to Mythus:
Has anyone simplied the rules for "Akack to Overpower"? My players nd
it too complex for such situaôns.
Further, how do you handle the player remark "I'll knock him unconsious with
my tonfa."? This way, with normally rolled damage, the HP managed several
^me to accidentally kill potenâl sources of informaôn who were
unwilling to come voluntarily with them?

Harold Stringer
_____________________________________________________________________

Work: Private:
1315 KT Almere Tel/Fax +31 - (0)36 53 64 798
The Netherlands
Tel +31 - (0)36 53 43 445
Fax +31 - (0)36 53 47 265


_____________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 16:37:14 +0200
Subject: Re: Why sov styles are beker for moi...

At 10:06 30-05-96 -0400, you wrote:

[]
>OK, leave to the full-contact prac^ôner to s^r up all us aikido
>fans... ;^)

Just wonderful to see how it works every ^me. Is there a need to be s^rred
up? ;^)

>I also have to wonder about your experience with aikido; most of the guys
>I know are quite capable of handling themselves against other marâl
>arts. I'm not sugges^ng aikido is any beker than any other marâl
>art (though...), just that it holds its own.
[]

>One nal point: I haven't been doing aikido for that long, but since day
>one I have been avoiding strikes and using that energy against people.
>And moreover, I've been prac^cing this with a partner, who is encouraged
>to vary akacks. In tae kwon do I had much less sparring prac^ce. It
>would seem that someone studying aikido should be able to perform in
>real-life situaôns much earlier in his training than the prac^ôner
>of tae kwon do.

It's just easier to perfect a few "simple" kicks, punches and defenses than
all the defenses and immobilizaôns they showed me at Aikido. That makes
Aikido more dicult, but not necessarily less-qualied as a means of defense.

>OK, lecture's over, but beyond the great philosophy of aikido there is
>also some great training potenâl. Not that you might not be able to
>beat the crap out of me with your karate, but hey, that's the rst thing
>I learned in aikido...how to fall!

Why does everybody picture a Karateka so aggressive? I learned it to defend
myself, not to beat you up over a discussion of Aikido! ;)

>(of course, for striking I prefer my ASP tac^cal baton)

What kind of "wand" is this? The same impact of a tac^cal nuke?

Harold
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 10:21:40 +0000

> At 10:07 AM 5/30/96 +0200, you wrote:
> >At 12:36 29-05-96 -0500, you wrote:
> >>On Tue, 28 May 1996, Daniel Pickek wrote:
> >[]
> >>
> >> I agree!! I also prac^ce Aikido... Is there some sort of
> >> conspiricy
> >>going on here?
> >>
> >Nope, no conspiracy. I like Gen Wa Kai Karate (a full contact s^le
> >with Kendo-like protecôn/armor). Tried Aikido for a while, but
> >found that even the guys who had trained Aikido for more than 5
> >years could not stop a straight punch (jodan-tsuki) or straight
> >kick (mae-geri).
>
> One of the rst things I learned was how to defend against a
> straight
> punch with kote gaeshi and many other immobilizaôns and
> projecôns. How long a person has been prac^cing must be balanced
> with how oven and seriously they train. Do you know the various
> rankings of these people that could not stop a basic punch? >
> >Although I appreciate the though behind Aikido, my experience is
> that one >needs to train Aikido for a *very* long ^me to be able to
> use it against an >*experienced* ghter. Emphasis for this
> par^cular relaônship. Against >inexperienced assailants it works
> quite OK.
>
> I agree that the basics are easier to apply in real life situaôns
> against inexperienced ghters. However,with two comparably trained
> individuals Aikido will defend itself against any other self defense
> form quite well.(ie Steven Seagal) You say that you appreciate the
> thought behind Aikido yet you seem to miss the point of the
> philosophy. The philosophy is that it is more ethical to
> train,learn,and prac^ce a form of self defense that u^lizes the
> akackers energy instead of projec^ng your own nega^ve energy into
> the universe and that it is beker to defend yourself while causing
> minimum pain and injury(possibly none) to another human being. >
> >IMO, a good combinaôn is to train both oensive and defensive
> arts of >Budo. But that would cost me too much ^me :(
>
> I agree that it is good to know another marâl art to fall back on
> but not that it has to be oensive Judo in my opinion would be just
> as good of an opôn.
>
> It may interest you to know that Ueshiba the founder of Aikido
> remained completely undefeated in many challenges without harming an
> opponent up to his death at 89 years of age by using only Aikido.
>
> Well enough posturing I'm sure your style has its merits and if you
> nd in it what you are comfortable with then by all means make the
> most of its teachings and I wish you the best success in your chosen
> style.
>
> Sincerely,
> Michael
> >
> >Harold Stringer
> >
> >

Well said. :) very good response.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 05:41:18 -0400

At 03:26 AM 5/30/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>same risk involved in publishing the material itself. Now of course if TSR
>>only holds and acquires these trademarks and copyrights in order to
>>eliminate compe^ôn to themselves and in the gaming industry they would
>>not be interested in such a proposal. I myself fail to see the threat from a
>>line of products TSR feels there is not enough demand to support.
>
>Exactly! Any other fantasy RPG on the market is necessarily going to cut
>into AD&D's market.

I disagree with this. There are quiet a few fantasy RPG's out there now that
do not cut into the VERY well established AD&D market. An addiônal point
here is that if TSR acquires these things in order to reduce compe^ôn in
the industry,there are an^-compe^ôn laws and perhaps the Jus^ce
department should look into some of TSR's prac^ces. In any event TSR has
declared thier is not a large enough market for the game so how could that
cut in TSR's market. Do you realy think that people who buy MYTHUS products
would suddenly stop buying AD&D products. I for one have not bought a TSR
product since TSR acquired MYTHUS and encourage others to do the same. No in
my opinion TSR would be catering to a market that they do not now have by
suppor^ng MYTHUS.

Therefor, TSR would be foolish to release the game and
>run the risk of it becoming a big player, or even a mediocre player.

Under licensing agreements the smaller company would have a limited number
of years to use these copyrights etc. if the game became a success TSR at
the end of that ^me could con^nue to support it themselves. In the
mean^me TSR would receive a percentage of the prot and sales thus
enjoying economic benet for owning a system they are geing nothing from
now.

It just
>doesn't make sense.

I also disgree with this I feel a company should try to make money on all
thier assets.

I don't think they'll ever do anything with it. I'd
>suggest not was^ng any energy campaigning for it's revival or geing your
>hopes up.

My hopes are not up I expect nothing from TSR. What I actually wish is not a
revival but for TSR to release/publish nished products already in thier
possesion namely the UNHALLOWED book and the CITY OF ASCALON book.
>

>Jason
>
>PS Remember, don't ght, blend. :)
I'm working on it realy I am.

Michael
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 18:32:30 -0400
Subject: Some Deital Stu

Some notes about akributes, extrapolated from the Opening of the Phaeree
Beasâry...

Potency Level

This table denotes the absolute maximum limits to akributes that a possible
for a being in the Mythus game system. They are ranks for the gods. The
rst Rank (Potency) includes all mundane creatures--Potency's are at the
upper end of the scale.

Thus, a non-deital being can only have a maximum mental or spiritual
Category of 120, and a M or S trait total of 240. If the HPG or MPG has
more, the being in quesôn is Quasi-Deiâl in nature. Journey Masters
should take this into account when developing creatures for the game.

By Rank Mental Physical Spiritual
1) Potency 40 30 40
2) Quasi-deity 50 40 50
3) Demigod 60 50 60
4) Minor deity 70 60 70
5) Lesser deity 80 70 80
6) Major deity 90 80 90
7) Great deity 100 90 100
8) Greater " 110 100 110
9) Greatest " 120 110 120

There is an excepôn to the rule, of course.

The Physical Akribute limitaôn assumes that the creature in quesôn is
Human Sized. Naturally, there are many creatures that are larger than human
size, demons, serpents, etc. In these cases, one should interpret the
Maximum rank for the P akributes as the number ^mes the Size Mul^plier.

Please keep in mind that aver you get above the Demigod level (or the Minor
Diety level), most of the stats are moot for most game purposes, simply
because one can't challenge a diety of that rank. However, in some cases,
knowledge of the stats are necessary. Consider, for instance, the Exorcism
skill--this requires knowledge of the trait of the Supernatural or En^tal
being.

In short, this table should serve as a gauge for crea^ng beings and/or
creatures for the Mythus game.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 18:22:30 -0400

At 02:06 AM 5/30/96 -0700, you wrote:
>At 12:25 AM 4/19/96 +0100, you wrote:
> There
>>>was a mockup page published in the original material released for DD/DJ, and
>>>it had a page lis^ng the ar^cles that would be known as "Deital Basics".
>>>I suspect the lists of Deiês that appeared in MMM were originally to be
>>>placed in Epic as well.
>
>Can I get this from someone please??
>
>I am star^ng campaign now and I really need anything I can get.

The Column that appears in MMM is en^tled "The Daily Deity" it covers the
Greco-Roman Pantheon from A-L in the two issues that were published. I
unfortunately do not have a scanner so I invite whoever does have a scanner
and these magazines to post. I will begin pos^ng(typing out) working

backwards from the last issue printed beginning with L and proceeding to A.
However,before I go to this much trouble check Mikes MYTHUS page and see if
what you want is not there already.

In regards to needing anything you can getA net search on your server for MYTHUS will turn up some sites. Mike's
MYTHUS page has adventures,new creatures,new vocaôns,an online mag called
Dangerous Ideas. It is in my opinion a very good site if you have not
already check it out. What do you already have? There is also a list of
Pantheons/Gods and specic cas^ngs.

Sincerely,
Michael

>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 20:58:34 -0400

>The Column that appears in MMM is en^tled "The Daily Deity" it covers the
>Greco-Roman Pantheon from A-L in the two issues that were published. I
>unfortunately do not have a scanner so I invite whoever does have a scanner
>and these magazines to post. I will begin pos^ng(typing out) working
>backwards from the last issue printed beginning with L and proceeding to A.
>However,before I go to this much trouble check Mikes MYTHUS page and see if
>what you want is not there already.

Six issues were published. Greco-Roman ran for 4 issues, Big 4 of AEgypt in
issue #5, Chinsungeese in issue #6. #7 was nalized, but unpublished,
locked in the anals of the Lake Genevan Demiurge's brain and his "ogre"
servator's quill.

If we E-Mail owners could repost, we would. But we can't, since it's
illegal. *Sigh*

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 02:56:42 -0400
Subject: TSR MYTHUS Pe^ôn

TSR,Inc.
PO Box 756
Lake Geneva,WI 53147

To who it may concern:

We are wri^ng as role playing game enthusiast to request that TSR release
City of Ascalon and Unhallowed,the complete but unpublished remaining works
in the Dangerous Journeys role playing game system wriken by Gary Gygax.

We are anxious to learn of your plans for the aforemenôned products. We
respecully request that you give weight to our desires,not only in behalf
of the signatories of this leker,but also in consideraôn of many
like-minded fellow gamers. We are sure that adherence to these suggesôns
will greatly increase the sa^sfacôn of users of your role playing games
and correspondingly enhance TSR's product sales base.

Sincerely,
Michael John Weaver

NOTE: This is just an idea those in agreement are welcome to sign,those who
do not ok,suggesôns and comments on re wording,alterna^ve ideas etc are
welcome.
maybe this could be sent online and by regular mail-print it out and have
your whole group sign it. Also,some rumor that the editor of Dungeon wants
to start including MYTHUS adventures. We should also make known our support
of this.

Thanks,
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 03:43:58 -0400

>
>Six issues were published. Greco-Roman ran for 4 issues, Big 4 of AEgypt in
>issue #5, Chinsungeese in issue #6. #7 was nalized, but unpublished,
>locked in the anals of the Lake Genevan Demiurge's brain and his "ogre"
>servator's quill.

I didn't know this thanks! Are these issues available anywhere? anyone
online want to part with issue 3-6 or any one of them?
>
>If we E-Mail owners could repost, we would. But we can't, since it's
>illegal. *Sigh*

I'm not sure this is technically true. I will do some copyright research in
the law library and post it for everyone. However copies made and
distributed for non-commercial private use are allowed. Now the internet and
having commercial providers thus having to pay for access does complicate
the issue. I do however know that TSR would have to le a complaint,what's
thier call on the issue of providing material that they won't to gamers?

Sincerely,
Michael
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 04:09:47 -0400
Subject: Re: TSR MYTHUS Pe^ôn


>To who it may concern:
>
>We are wri^ng as role playing game enthusiast to request that TSR release
>City of Ascalon and Unhallowed, the complete but unpublished remaining works
>in the Dangerous Journeys role playing game system wriken by Gary Gygax.
>
>We are anxious to learn of your plans for the aforemenôned products. We
>respecully request that you give weight to our desires,not only in behalf

ôn

>of the signatories of this leker,but also in consideraôn of many
>like-minded fellow gamers. We are sure that adherence to these suggesôns
>will greatly increase the sa^sfacôn of users of your role playing games
>and correspondingly enhance TSR's product sales base.

This last sentence seems a likle unfocused. Otherwise, sounds good. Count
me in!

Jason Furedy
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 05:03:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Aikido

I always wanted to study aikido, but I've yet to nd a reputable dojo in the
San Diego area. I studied Tang Soo Do for about 6 months before I realized
it wasn't up my alley.

What a coincidence...

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 06:17:21 -0400

>
>>To who it may concern:
>>
>>We are wri^ng as role playing game enthusiast to request that TSR release
>>City of Ascalon and Unhallowed, the complete but unpublished remaining works
>>in the Dangerous Journeys role playing game system wriken by Gary Gygax.
>>
>>We are anxious to learn of your plans for the aforemenôned products. We
>>respecully request that you give weight to our desires,not only in behalf
> of the signatories of this leker,but also in consideraôn of many
>>like-minded fellow gamers. We are sure that adherence to these suggesôns
>>will greatly increase goodwill between TSR and role playing game
enthusiast while,correspondingly,enhancing TSR's product sales.
>

>
Michael John Weaver
>Jason Furedy

This last sentence seems a likle unfocused. Otherwise,sounds good. Count me in!
(sentence moved)

>(Is the above any beker??)

Do you have any suggesôns on rewri^ng this sentence? I wish to convey
that TSR will be gaining a market that they don't have now,the MYTHUS crowd.
Many people including myself have not bought TSR products since this
acquisiôn so it would increase thier market and "sa^sfacôn of users of
your role playing games" does refer to MYTHUS players. However this should
be conveyed as politely and professionally as possible. Also many people I'm
quiet sure have bought and adapated or adapted thier old AD&D modules to an
occasional MYTHUS adventure.

When this pe^ôn is complete please sign it and we can send a online copy
to TSR then print it and have groups sign it and mail it in.

Thanks,
Michael
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 13:37:00 +0100
Subject: Marâl arts...

Someone said that a prac^ôner of Aikido would be able to defend
themselves earlier than that of, say, Taekwondo. I'm afraid that I
must disagree with this. Though I would personally rank Aikido as
one of the best marâl arts in the world (every marâl art has its
advantages and disadvantages) it takes much longer to fully learn and
appreciate the moves in Aikido than in the cited example of
Taekwondo. The one problem that I can think of is that an individual
would *think* themselves beker able to handle a situaôn, a sadly
false aitude to take.

With the prac^ce of Taekwondo you might consider there to be a few
schools of thought: tradiônal, sport and (I suppose) neo.
Tradiônal TKD trains in the more, well... tradiônal aspects of
Taekwondo, concentra^ng upon the poomse, basic techniques, body
movements, and so on; sparring is used since it is a gh^ng art.
Sport TKD (or what I called sport TKD) essenâlly concentrates upon
the tness of the par^cipant and the need to be darned good in
sparring, hence de-emphasising basic techniques, poomse (oops...

pakerns, kata - whichever you prefer). What I call neo-TKD tries to
incorporate an aspect from each individual approach (I think... ;-),
and some might argue looses something because of this widespread
approach. Teachers of this 'style' tend to have done several other
marâl arts (if only sparingly, which is a pity) and are open to new
suggesôns... not stuck to the track of the one marâl art
philosophy. Thus, if "you" (whoever you were) didn't get to spar it
might be because the instructor was concentra^ng upon the more
tradiônal aspects. Personally I would hope that I fall into the
third category of instructor. Certainly, when I teach I make sure
that my pupils get a good dose of all three (though, shamefacedly, I
must admit a preference for basic technique!).

Someone counter-argued that it is 'easier' to perfect a few simple
techniques. Though this argument is closer to what I consider to be
the reality of the situaôn, I naturally object to the term
'easier.' One must remember that an individual only becomes a
*beginnier* aver something like three-four years of training, two if
they are damn good! Once you've achieved a grounding in the basic
techniques (such that they are becoming reex acôn), you an begin
to 'forget' about them (sorry if that sounds mys^cal or something)
and start the proper training.

Anyway, I apologise for using the list for my own personal thoughts
upon marâl arts. Thanks for listening to me ramble <g>

Now, if all we can do is get back to the Mythus and leave this
marâl-arty stu for other lists or for personal mails (sorry for
that...)

Cheers
--MARK


=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 09:55:24 -0400
Subject: Re: [OFF] Marâl Arts / Budo

At 04:22 PM 5/30/96 +0200, you wrote:
>Dear Michael,
>
>
>
>Don't know the level exactly, but he wore a hakama (if I remember the name
>correctly).

Some Dojos allow all students to wear the hakama as that it is a very
tradiônal garb. However,the true tradiôn is only for those who earned a
black belt to wear it. Iden^caôn of status is dicult as that
tradiônally Aikido dojos do not give out belts,albiet some do to make it
more akrac^ve to American students. I'm relevantly certain you were not
sparring with a black belt.

The diculty I no^ced that especially with new comers to
>Aikido (like me), that it is a very complex system.

It is indeed a complex system and it takes some ^me for the movements to
become natural and reac^ve.

A lot depends on very
>subtle clues you have to read in your opponents stance and aitude.

This training and informaôn would be helpfull regardless one ones chosen
style.

During
>basic prac^ce, when you know what is going to happen, this was all
>manageble.

This is why Randori is a part of Aikido,mul^ple akackers akacking(freely)
one individual that must defend. This is part of most Aikido ranking test,it
was part of my rst ranking test.

We once tried sparring (the stupid "style-versus-style" debate),
>and I no^ced he couldn't block the hard and very fast tsuki's and geri's.

Not to get hung up on seman^cs here but Aikido rarely stops or blocks any
akack it blends with them. Some^mes as the line from The Karate Kid goes
the best defense is to not be there. You indicated that you were a
experienced ghter,it is true that a newcomer in Aikido would probably not
have the skills to block akacks from a brown or black belt in other marâl
arts,what one must keep in mind is comparable training. Likewise as you
indicated the movements in Aikido can be dicult even for someone that is
experienced in another marâl art form. Note: if he was trying to block he
was not prac^cing Aikido.

>>I stopped with Aikido more because I didn't like the aitude of the Dojo: a
>lax and non-serious. Too much play.

I can not speak for that Dojo of course but I do know that Aikido Dojos
project a very friendly atmosphere that can come o as lax to people.
However, if a inordinate amount of ^me was being taken away from prac^ce
that would be and is inappropriate(in the tradiôn). I would recommend that
you nd another Aikido dojo just to watch a class,I assure you this is not
standard in all Dojos. Some^mes it is very dicult if you are in a

smaller city,then just nd the instructor you feel most qualied and train
in that style. All styles have something of value to oer.

>
>I didn't miss the point. I agree with the thought of not harming your
>opponent when defending yourself, but I found defending myself much more
>dicult this way.

Well,did you train in this style for at least half as long as you trained in
another style? Aikido is by its own admission more dicult to learn than
many if not all linear systems. Again the point is not which is more
dicult but which is more ethical. Aikido believes it is worth the extra
eort and training to be able to u^lize a method of self defense that will
inict likle if any injury on the akacker. Aikido goes beyond the thought
of not harming an akacker turning the philosophy into a ethical
prac^ceable form of self defense. This does not mean you must share or
prac^ce this philosophy I respect dierences of opinions and
prac^ces,this is simply what Aikido teaches and many but not all students
of the art agree with.

So, even though I prefer not to harm anyone (I'd rather
>run away, as we are legally required to do in my country),

Aikido does teach to prac^ce non confrontaôn when possible, I once had a
gun pulled on me at a rather great distance,so judging the situaôn as
carefully as I could I turned around and walked away. Explananôn: While I
was frightened,no tough guy here,this was a teenager and it was obvious he
wanted to impress/in^midate me(I look young) so I diused it by walking
away. So if can be peacefully resolved by walking,running,talking etc Aikido
encourages that you use the art only in absolute defense or yourself and
possibly others(this is a personal judgement call)

I will defend
>myself by any means when cornered.

Again,the point is what is most ethical not the easiest to prepare for or legal.

>For this reason I would even prefer using a pepper-spray than use Karate
>techniques, because the akacker then can sue me for damages.

I myself carry a Mace/Pepper Spray combinaôn,it is a defensive weapon that
will not inict permanent injury. Aikido is a philosophy I prac^ce which
happens to involve self defens and physical condiôning. I also support the
use of stun guns and tasers in case anyone cares. I am from Texas where it
is now legal to carry a concealed handgun. I do not carry one guns are for
killing people and I have no desire to do so. I also have some condence if
there is more than one akacker or my spray get knocked away that I can
defend myself long enough to run away(this is a joke among many marâl arts
about Aikido but it is what Aikido teaches to a extent). In
Texas(unfortunately) one can use deadly force to defend themselves,thier

home,and in the immediate retrieval of stolen property. I choose to defend
and run.

>(This really happened: a police ocer found a burglar in his house at
>night, he summoned him to stand and be arrested, but the burglar akacked
>the him. The police ocer broke the burglars jaw, and subsequently
>transferred him to the police staôn. In a trial later, the burglar sued
>the police ocer for bodily harm, and the police ocer had to pay him $500)
>
Had the police ocer used Aikido the burglar could have been immobilized
and arrested without injury. Perhaps this would be good required training
for Police ocers. In the United States the burglar would have been shot
and killed and no charges led.
>[]
>>I have trained Judo. In contrast to Aikido, Judo has become to rely more on
>strength than technique, I'm sad to say. That's why I tried Aikido.

I agree that in this respect Jujutsu(the forerunner of Judo) is a probably
more defensive relying on a akackers moôn than Judo does although Judo in
its defense does encourage strength building excersises and s^ll does
u^lize some of the akckers movement,this was just an example Karate,Taek
Won DO,Kung-Fu could all be u^lized as a second art as could Tai Chi I was
simply sta^ng that a oensive art as a second art wasn't neccessary in my
opinion but could certainly be used.
>
>>My previous pos^ng was not intended as the well-known "style-versus-style"
>debate.

It did sound like it with the punch and kick comment. However,you do play
Mythus and prac^ce marâl arts,should we simply expand the club to
encompass Mythus players who study marâl arts?

Every thing depends on how hard and serious one trains, whether in
>Aikido or other Budo arts.

Diko

>
>Back to Mythus:
>Has anyone simplied the rules for "Akack to Overpower"? My players nd
>it too complex for such situaôns.
>Further, how do you handle the player remark "I'll knock him unconsious with
>my tonfa."? This way, with normally rolled damage, the HP managed several
>^me to accidentally kill potenâl sources of informaôn who were
>unwilling to come voluntarily with them?
>
>
>Harold Stringer
>
About overpowering:
Have you looked through the Journeys and Mythic Masters magazines I remember
something on new marâl arts moves and so forth maybe theres something in
there I'll look if you dont have those let me know. If its not in there and
noone post I'll post a simplicaôn suggesôn in a few days(I'll have to
write it:( )Please somebody post!
>
>1. Your potenâl source of informaôn doesn't have a high enough Physical
Trait score(just an opinion)

2. Place Heka armor via an amulet,bracelet charm whatever that con^nually
provides heka armor,maybe just for the head if you want. The player will hit
a wall about an 1/2 inch away from the OP's head and be very embarrased.

3. If the players kill potenâl sources of informaôn enough you make it
so that the scenario cannot be completed successfully(sp check) without that
informaôn,this will encourage them to be more careful in the future,set up
deadly traps that can be avoided but only with vital OP informaôn.

just ideas and opinions do with them as you will.

Regards,
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 09:16:28 +0100

>
>>To who it may concern:
>>
>>We are wri^ng as role playing game enthusiast to request that TSR release
>>City of Ascalon and Unhallowed, the complete but unpublished remaining works
>>in the Dangerous Journeys role playing game system wriken by Gary Gygax.

I suppose that I should point out that City of Ascalon is _not_ owned by
TSR. It was s^ll in the drav stage when the seklement was made and was
not part of the agreement. Unhallowed, however, is.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 10:25:05 -0500
In-Reply-To: <199605300919.FAA23389@darius.cris.com>

On Thu, 30 May 1996, Michael J. Weaver wrote:
> However,with two comparably trained individuals
> Aikido will defend itself against any other self defense form quite well.(ie
> Steven Seagal)
Last I heard Steven Segal had his black belt revoked for turning
Aikido back to it's Aikiki roots....
Lemme know if I'm just totaly wrong about this...

********************************************************************
*********************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 10:31:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Why sov styles are beker for moi...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.CVX.3.91.960530095118.8294A-100000@gibbs.oit.unc.edu>

> My most prac^cal reason for liking aikido...I've studied tae kwon do and
> agree it's nice to learn how to strike. But I'm 5'9". What if I'm
> gh^ng someone who's 6'5"?

Try being 6'2" and sparring with a 5'9" partner in Aikido....talk
about dicult...

> to vary akacks. In tae kwon do I had much less sparring prac^ce. It

Wierd...it was the other way arround with me...

> would seem that someone studying aikido should be able to perform in
> real-life situaôns

Learning how to fall is usefull anywhere! Also, have you read any of
the govermental reports on the teaching of Aikido to U.S. Army Rangers...
The lowering of the Harra through prac^ce actually improved the Rangers'
3 mile running ^mes by several minutes...

********************************************************************

*********************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 13:05:36 -0400
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960531102216.26745A-100000@wood2> from "Andrew D.
McDowell" at May 31, 96 10:25:05 am

>
> On Thu, 30 May 1996, Michael J. Weaver wrote:
> > However,with two comparably trained individuals
> > Aikido will defend itself against any other self defense form quite well.(ie
> > Steven Seagal)
> Last I heard Steven Segal had his black belt revoked for turning
> Aikido back to it's Aikiki roots....

That should be Aki-jujitsu.

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 13:24:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Some Deital Stu
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960530223230.006cf438@pop.âc.net>

John
A good chart, denitely! It's nice to see someone talking about
something other than marâl arts. (Get some Aikido-Mythus rules, for
crying out loud! :))

A quesôn: Could the chart follow a geometric increase rather than a
simple arithme^c increase? It seems to me that the creator gods would
perhaps have more than 720 Mental and Spiritual TRAIT. I perhaps would
make each level twice the last, maybe less, but s^ll, a mul^plicaôn
(geometric) rather than an addiôn...

Just a thought...great idea, though! :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 13:48:06 -0400

Rumors of AErth.

==================
Trade Between the English Channel has been plagued by akacks from a
mysterious pirate ship. 9 ships have been the vic^m of it, though none
have survived the akacks. The ships are lev to driv, devoid of crew and
any cargo. The ships ags are destroyed, replaced by a ag showing a 6
digit Talon dripping blood and surrounded by a purple ame, on a eld of
Gold.
Captains are being careful and hiring mercenary marines, traveling in pairs,
or taking extra heka-precauôns. The eect has made trade harder and the
economic impact is being felt by the naôns.
==================
A mysterious series of murders and extorôns have been reported in Orleans,
Francia. 6 daughters of wealthy merchants have been slain by an unknown
agent, all various daughters of the merchants. The murders are believed to
be executed by someone with alchemical ability, since the girls have
appeared to be poisoned--their corpses are a bright green color. Each
merchant has failed to give in to an extorôn ransom, believed to be êd
to one of the theives guilds. Though all thieves guild facôns in the city
deny this.
==================
A strange eccentric savant has arrived at Oxford University, and is a guest
of one of the Administrators of that ne insituôn. The Savant is said to
seem absent minded as well as mysterious. He is always in the presence of
10 cats, 1 caitshee(!), 1 ^ger(!!) and a strange clockwork golem-automaton.
(Likely of Germanic origin). He keeps interviewing students, campus
visitors, and other such individuals. He is looking for something, someone,
and mukers various things including "prophecy" and "powress". He is the
talk of the University and its surrounding area.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 13:51:23 -0400

>TSR,Inc.
>PO Box 756
>Lake Geneva,WI 53147

>To who it may concern:

My only suggesôn is to address it to Lorraine Williams (TSR president)
and Jim Ward (TSR VP Crea^ve Services), instead of the generic "TSR Inc,"
and put those names in the salutaôn.

Please note that a leker campaign is what Lucifer was trying to get
going, before. Don't let it fall apart.

Oh, and don't everybody email me about it ... these should go through
the post oce; the management needs tangible evidence of your interest
and proof that you're willing to actually write down an address and s^ck
a stamp on it.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 14:27:07 -0400
In-Reply-To: <199605311705.NAA15581@bael.umd.umich.edu>

Nothing personal gang
Can we get a Marâl Arts-L or something? I'd like to think that we can
have a discussion about Mythus around here every once in a while... :)

Here's a good one:

Has anyone considered using computers in the running of a Mythus game
session? I accidentally ended up running a session last Sunday with my
computer on the table (we were network-Warcraving). IT was great for
wri^ng notes on the y (just load up Word and o you go!). I was
thinking--what a great likle toy to use for running combats in Mythus.
God knows if you are running mul^ple HP's vs. mul^ple EP's, all with
mul^ple acôns and dierent SF's, it's hell to keep track of who goes
when and does what damage to whom, etc.

I think it would be INCREDIBLY helpful to have a tool to dynamically keep
track of all that crap. If no one else wants to do it, I can (with VB4),
but I'd at least like to see some discussion on it... :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 17:09:04 -0400
Subject: Computers in Mythus

>Has anyone considered using computers in the running of a Mythus game
>session?

Well, sort of. Since I have a laptop (Mac PB 520c) and we rotate the
locaôn of the game between my house & the various players' homes, I have
done all the HP record sheets on my computer (using Publish-It Easy! 2.1.9).
This is extremely handy if a person's sheet is temporarily unavailable--I
just pull it up and nd what I need to know, or I can print a new copy for
them when I bring my portable printer along. In addiôn I have begun many
dierent things, though for some reason I nd it harder to nish an old
project than start a new one. For instance, I have played around with
ClarisWork's database for making both a monster database and a deity
database.

In addiôn, I nd it really handy for making notes on the abiliês of
Heka-forged items (including poôns etc.) where the HPs have not yet
discovered all the funcôns of a device. In Necropolis, for example, where
my group is currently adventuring, they have found many items but have only
discovered the power of a few of them. On a ClarisWorks document I have a
list of each item, its outward descripôn, who has it, and what its real
abiliês are, which I can then refer to as they discover facts about said
device.

What Jesse asks for, though, is what is really useful: some tool to make
large combats less onerous. It is not unusual for one combat to stretch
across two or even three evenings of play, especially as I tend to be a
s^ckler for keeping track of enemy Heka, P TRAIT, charges used from devices,
and which Cas^ngs are running on which HPs and EPs. I've been doing it by
hand and would really like to develop something automated. For instance, a
spreadsheet that automa^cally tracks ^me in a combat and calculates values

for you so you know when a Cas^ng ends as soon as you type some shortcut
character into a cell. Such a spreadsheet could automa^cally track
progressive damage from poisons and keep track of diminishing P TRAIT, Heka,
etc. if you really wanted to be ambiôus.

However, since no one is willing to pay me to write Mythus stu all day, I
shall have to wait for some other enterprising soul to take on the task. If
only ed McMahon would show up at *my* doorx Sigh.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 18:02:33 -0400

At 10:25 AM 5/31/96 -0500, you wrote:
>On Thu, 30 May 1996, Michael J. Weaver wrote:
>> However,with two comparably trained individuals
>> Aikido will defend itself against any other self defense form quite well.(ie
>> Steven Seagal)
> Last I heard Steven Segal had his black belt revoked for turning
>Aikido back to it's Aikiki roots....
> Lemme know if I'm just totaly wrong about this...
>
>
> ********************************************************************
> Gravitaôn, n. The tendency of all bodies to approach one another
> with a strength proporônal to the quan^ty of maker they contain> the quan^ty of maker they contain being ascertained by the strength
> of their tendency to approach one another. This is a lovely and
> edifying illustraôn of how science, having made A the proof of B,
> makes B the proof of A.
> -Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dicônary"
> *********************************************************************
>
>There is a great mystery surrounding Steven Seagals' black belt. He says he
obtained it by studying with Ueshiba but the Dojo does not deny or conrm
any such records as a maker of prac^ce. Some people that also claimed to
have obtained thier blackbelts from here state that they never saw him
around the years he gives for training. However,while he was married to his
rst wife(which was Japanese) he taught Aikido in Japan. Her father was a
Aikido master(10th Dan) so there is some speculaôn that he learned it
there. His technique and credenâls were apparently good enough for
Japanese students to seek him out to teach a Japanese art-very rare indeed.
The Akijutsu rumor started because Steven Seagal does demonstrate Akijutsu
in his movies,the dierence being of course him using the techniques for
breaks and being very rough. This is as I believe everyone understands what
sells American acôn movies. It would be highly unusual for a Dojo to

revoke any black belt that was earned in Aikido as that the tradiôn is one
of respect and privacy and would never make such a public announcement or
conrm or deny any such rumors,of course one would have to know where his
belt was obtained from to know if the rumors even had credibility.

Anyone with more informaôn on this is invited to E-mail me at
aikido@cris.com and or the original poster but please per several request
I've read lets take the discussion o the Mythus list(fairs fair guys).

Sincerely,
Michael

The great universe
Is itself the way of ai-kiA light for countless peoples
That opens up the world.

Morihei Ueshiba
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 18:02:38 -0400

At 09:16 AM 5/31/96 +0100, you wrote:
>>In a message dated 96-05-31 03:00:13 EDT, you write:
>>
>>>To who it may concern:
>>>
>>>We are wri^ng as role playing game enthusiast to request that TSR release
>>>City of Ascalon and Unhallowed, the complete but unpublished remaining works
>>>in the Dangerous Journeys role playing game system wriken by Gary Gygax.
>
>I suppose that I should point out that City of Ascalon is _not_ owned by
>TSR. It was s^ll in the drav stage when the seklement was made and was
>not part of the agreement. Unhallowed, however, is.
>
>Tom
>
>Thank You! for this informaôn it may be prove be of immense value.
Whats the ownership status on Changeling? and what about the other RPG
(white wolf?) of the same name?

Thanks,
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 17:52:28 +0100

Subject: Computer aids for Mythus

>Here's a good one:
>
>session? I accidentally ended up running a session last Sunday with my
>computer on the table (we were network-Warcraving). IT was great for
>wri^ng notes on the y (just load up Word and o you go!). I was
>thinking--what a great likle toy to use for running combats in Mythus.
>God knows if you are running mul^ple HP's vs. mul^ple EP's, all with
>mul^ple acôns and dierent SF's, it's hell to keep track of who goes
>when and does what damage to whom, etc.
>
>I think it would be INCREDIBLY helpful to have a tool to dynamically keep
>track of all that crap. If no one else wants to do it, I can (with VB4),
>but I'd at least like to see some discussion on it... :)
>
>Jesse

I agree! I'm playing in a Mage game where the GM is doing just this very
thing. It works preky well, though he s^ll can't keep up with my Virtual
Adept's computer virus.
There are more programs of this sort for the EGS then one would want to
count, and I know programs of this sort have been designed for Rolemaster,
Shadowrun, etc. So why couldn't we have a *Dangerous Workstaôn* program:
it slices, it dices, it puts the fear of God into your players! Speaking
on behalf of all the Mac people, I think a hypercard program could be
designed fairly easily. A scrapebook feature could be added to "jot down"
notes. Dice would be simple to handle (how many programs out there roll
d6s, d10s and d100s?). A feature could also be included to keep track of
the HPs (nothing too detailed, just the stats and a few notes), and it
could even track APs! A makeshiv OP creator would be a big akracôn.

Ahhh, pipedreams...

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 04:59:28 GMT
Subject: Re: Computers in Mythus

Jesse,

Computers for combat?

Well..

I've been doing some work on a C program to help control the combat,
especially for those ^mes when the booze makes makes me lose track of who
is hiing who with what. But I am no programmer, and progress is slow.

What it does (so far)..

1, Allows for modicaôn of the player stats before combat begins, in case
any none-combat damage has occurred beforehand.

2, sets up OP/EP relevant stats, descripôn, weapons etc.

3, Combat setup, Characters select weapons from a menu.

4, Calculates iniâ^ve and akack order, using the tables from the GM
screen.

5, Calculates FAC, again using tables from the GM screen.

6, Calculates damage, again using tables for akack type/armour type.

7, Applies damage and keeps track of wound level.

I had intended this to be for my own use only, and being lazy, I included my
players' stats into the source code, so this bit needs re-wri^ng. I am
also not happy about how I have done the iniâ^ve bit, it is too
long-winded, and needs work. I will not have ^me to look at this for the
next couple of weeks, but when it is done anyone who wants a copy is
welcome. But as I said before, I am no programmer, so don't expect too
much.

If you want to talk about this contact me, m.goode@dial.pipex.com

Mark Goode

Leicester
England
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 10:54:08 -0400
Subject: Computers & Mythus

>session? I accidentally ended up running a session last Sunday with my
>computer on the table (we were network-Warcraving). IT was great for
>wri^ng notes on the y (just load up Word and o you go!). I was
>thinking--what a great likle toy to use for running combats in Mythus.

>God knows if you are running mul^ple HP's vs. mul^ple EP's, all with
>mul^ple acôns and dierent SF's, it's hell to keep track of who goes
>when and does what damage to whom, etc.
>
>I think it would be INCREDIBLY helpful to have a tool to dynamically keep
>track of all that crap. If no one else wants to do it, I can (with VB4),
>but I'd at least like to see some discussion on it... :)
>
>Jesse

I've thought about it, but never actually tried wri^ng something. It's a
good idea and if anyone wrote one I'd love a copy, but then there's that
missing feel of dice and smudged character sheets to consider...

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 10:54:22 -0400
Subject: Stunning

>Back to Mythus:
>Has anyone simplied the rules for "Akack to Overpower"? My players nd
>it too complex for such situaôns.
>Further, how do you handle the player remark "I'll knock him unconsious with
>my tonfa."? This way, with normally rolled damage, the HP managed several
>^me to accidentally kill potenâl sources of informaôn who were
>unwilling to come voluntarily with them?
>
>
>Harold Stringer

You could rule that the HP's may use any weapon (within reason, arrows don't
work very well) to inict stunning type damage. If the weapon does not
usally inict that sort of damage, reduce the HP's FAC and the amount of
damage the weapon inicts. You know, the old at-of-the-blade trick.

Haven't tried this myself, but it might work nicely.

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 01:44:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Computers & Mythus
In-Reply-To: <199606011454.KAA05660@sparc1.glen-net.ca>

> I've thought about it, but never actually tried wri^ng something. It's a
> good idea and if anyone wrote one I'd love a copy, but then there's that
> missing feel of dice and smudged character sheets to consider...
>
> Chris

THis is true. However, the JM doesn't have to worry about all that crap!
:) It's not the players who will have the computer (yet). I will be
thinking about this project over the next few days, and I'll see what I
can come up with--I'll have to design what I need on paper, rst... :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 18:53:42 -0400
Subject: That Deital Chart.

At 01:24 PM 5/31/96 -0400, you wrote:
>John>
>A good chart, denitely! It's nice to see someone talking about
>something other than marâl arts. (Get some Aikido-Mythus rules, for
>crying out loud! :))

Agreed. Considering Gary wrote a year ago saying "look for Michael John
Weaver on the DJ boards. Seems okay. (meaning a good designer).", I assumed
he'd be producing heaps of DJ stu here by now!!!

(Aside--it seems that like everything else Mr. Gygax menôns, it is also
delayed. He told me about MJW almost a year ago. So he arrives on the list
just a few weeks ago. Everything he announces gets delayed--buncha BAD
luck. Nothing like tradiôn.)

>A quesôn: Could the chart follow a geometric increase rather than a
>simple arithme^c increase? It seems to me that the creator gods would
>perhaps have more than 720 Mental and Spiritual TRAIT. I perhaps would
>make each level twice the last, maybe less, but s^ll, a mul^plicaôn
>(geometric) rather than an addiôn...

Possibly--but I doubt it, or its not a maker of simple quan^caôn.
There were special allowances EGG once menôned. Rahotep, for instance,
would gain 50 Heka for every trait point gained. I believe the numbers are
valid. "Greatest Creator Deiês" are neither omniscient nor omnipotent.
They do have mul^ple forms/avatars/aspects/manifestaôns at ^mes, so you

could consider it a reecôn of that. Also remember that most of us poor
normal humans have an M Trait level of 60-80--we ain't heroes. It is one of
the most dicult things to imagine even Genius-level intellect or Eide^c
Memory. A GURPS book (think it was supers) made not of there being no need
for very high IQ levels and also pointed out the problems with RPGing said
traits.

All I can really take credit for doing is seeing an incomplete table for the
game system in the rst secôn of the Phaeree Gazekeer-in-progress that
D.N. released to us, understanding it, and presen^ng it in revised format
for you.

I'm denitely not going to try to embellish gaming stats for the
deiês...that way lies madness without the proper guidance. And Gary never
did get to embellish that eec^vely. Maybe someday, if we're lucky and
fortunate... Like he does, I suggest keeping the "biguns" (those over
Demigodhood) unkillable and unapproachable by normal circumstances.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 02:34:01 -0400
Subject: Re: That Deital Chart.

At 06:53 PM 6/2/96 -0400, you wrote:
>At 01:24 PM 5/31/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>John>>
>>A good chart, denitely! It's nice to see someone talking about
>>something other than marâl arts. (Get some Aikido-Mythus rules, for
>>crying out loud! :))

There's a thought. :)
>
>Agreed. Considering Gary wrote a year ago saying "look for Michael John
>Weaver on the DJ boards. Seems okay. (meaning a good designer).", I assumed
>he'd be producing heaps of DJ stu here by now!!!

I'll have to be sure to talk to Gary about this. I appreciate the
endorsement(seems ok) but was unaware of it. If I may be so bold does there
seem to be a greater need for support in any one or a few areas more than
others?
I don't know about heaps of stu but certainly I could endeavor to work on
some things that people believe are needed or just REALY wanted. If you wish
I will of course con^nue to communicate and post via this list but it would
help to know what most people are looking for.

>(Aside--it seems that like everything else Mr. Gygax menôns, it is also
>delayed. He told me about MJW almost a year ago. So he arrives on the list
>just a few weeks ago. Everything he announces gets delayed--buncha BAD
>luck. Nothing like tradiôn.)

I was unaware that I was "expected".

I would be happy to converse with anyone about any aspect of MYTHUS. I do
not hold myself out as a rules lawyer or expert. I am a MYTHUS JM and I
would be happy to oer any insight I may have about the game to any other
JM or player.

Hail and Prosper,
Michael John Weaver
Journey Master

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

>==================
>John R. Troy (JRT)
>johntroy@âc.net
>==================
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 09:11:41 +0200

At 09:55 31-05-96 -0400, you wrote:
>At 04:22 PM 5/30/96 +0200, you wrote:
>>Dear Michael,
>>
>>
>>
>>Don't know the level exactly, but he wore a hakama (if I remember the name
>>correctly).
>
>Some Dojos allow all students to wear the hakama as that it is a very
>tradiônal garb. However,the true tradiôn is only for those who earned a
>black belt to wear it. Iden^caôn of status is dicult as that
>tradiônally Aikido dojos do not give out belts,albiet some do to make it
>more akrac^ve to American students. I'm relevantly certain you were not
>sparring with a black belt.

I'm sorry to say he was our assistant teacher :(

>>Back to Mythus:
>>Has anyone simplied the rules for "Akack to Overpower"? My players nd
>>it too complex for such situaôns.
>>Further, how do you handle the player remark "I'll knock him unconsious with
>>my tonfa."? This way, with normally rolled damage, the HP managed several
>>^me to accidentally kill potenâl sources of informaôn who were
>>unwilling to come voluntarily with them?
>>
>>
>>Harold Stringer
>>
>About overpowering:
>Have you looked through the Journeys and Mythic Masters magazines I remember
>something on new marâl arts moves and so forth maybe theres something in
>there I'll look if you dont have those let me know. If its not in there and
>noone post I'll post a simplicaôn suggesôn in a few days(I'll have to
>write it:( )Please somebody post!

Unfortunately, neither of these is/was available to me :(

>1. Your potenâl source of informaôn doesn't have a high enough Physical
>Trait score(just an opinion)

The NPC was roughed up a likle because he refused to come along. When he
peresisted, the HP sored to his horror an Ultra-Vital hit with full damage,
killing the NPC.

>2. Place Heka armor via an amulet,bracelet charm whatever that con^nually
>provides heka armor,maybe just for the head if you want. The player will hit
>a wall about an 1/2 inch away from the OP's head and be very embarrased.

Nice idea.

>3. If the players kill potenâl sources of informaôn enough you make it
>so that the scenario cannot be completed successfully(sp check) without that
>informaôn,this will encourage them to be more careful in the future,set up
>deadly traps that can be avoided but only with vital OP informaôn.

Indeed, this par^cular scenario went completely awry for killing their
vital source of informaôn. However, we had a lot of fun.
The idea with (deadly) traps is one I will try in the future.

>just ideas and opinions do with them as you will.

Thanks,

>
>Regards,
>Michael
>

Harold
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 15:15:40 +0100
Subject: Re: Computers in Mythus

Jesse,

Apart from the features pointed out by Mark Goode about his program,
it really is worth looking into. I was personally too engrossed with
going "cool" to no^ce the iniâ^ve bit, but it would have been
nice to be able to input mul^ple combat sta^s^cs into it... but he
said that he might change that ;-)

Keep it up Mark!

Cheers
--MARK


=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 10:30:58 -0400
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960602225342.007275d8@pop.âc.net>

> I'm denitely not going to try to embellish gaming stats for the
> deiês...that way lies madness without the proper guidance. And Gary never
> did get to embellish that eec^vely. Maybe someday, if we're lucky and
> fortunate... Like he does, I suggest keeping the "biguns" (those over
> Demigodhood) unkillable and unapproachable by normal circumstances.

Now this is the paragraph that I agree with most. :) Just don't have them
appear in any circumstance which could possibly result in the HP's having
any chance to damage them... (denitely makes life easier)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 14:31:53 -0400


>Have you looked through the Journeys and Mythic Masters magazines I remember
>something on new marâl arts moves and so forth maybe theres something in
>there I'll look

It's in #2 (orange cover).
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 02:38:20 PDT

>>A quesôn: Could the chart follow a geometric increase rather than a
>>simple arithme^c increase? It seems to me that the creator gods would
>>perhaps have more than 720 Mental and Spiritual TRAIT. I perhaps would
>>make each level twice the last, maybe less, but s^ll, a mul^plicaôn
>>(geometric) rather than an addiôn...

Essenâlly this is how I see it (MHO, of course). I'd probably round up
and give them 1000. But giving them scores at all kind of defeats the
purpose of good GMing (see below). With deiês, scores should not maker.

>Possibly--but I doubt it, or its not a maker of simple quan^caôn.
>There were special allowances EGG once menôned. Rahotep, for instance,
>would gain 50 Heka for every trait point gained. I believe the numbers are
>valid. "Greatest Creator Deiês" are neither omniscient nor omnipotent.
>They do have mul^ple forms/avatars/aspects/manifestaôns at ^mes, so you
>could consider it a reecôn of that. Also remember that most of us poor
>normal humans have an M Trait level of 60-80--we ain't heroes. It is one of
>the most dicult things to imagine even Genius-level intellect or Eide^c
>Memory. A GURPS book (think it was supers) made not of there being no need
>for very high IQ levels and also pointed out the problems with RPGing said
>traits.

The whole point is individualism with personas, deital or otherwise. If a
deity is perceived as foolish, what point is it to give him/her 100, 200,
or 1000 points of Spiritual Trait?

And I am denitely against direct contests with deiês - avatars, maybe,
but a deity defeated by personas should be rare indeed. One killed (if
such a sorry event ever occurred) would merely be banished from the PM
plane for a ^me indirectly proporônal to his/her stature. And that
deity would certainly be pissed when such banishment ended...

>I'm denitely not going to try to embellish gaming stats for the
>deiês...that way lies madness without the proper guidance. And Gary never
>did get to embellish that eec^vely. Maybe someday, if we're lucky and
>fortunate... Like he does, I suggest keeping the "biguns" (those over
>Demigodhood) unkillable and unapproachable by normal circumstances.

True. That's why there are soldiers and there are generals. Generals
don't need to engage the enemy, as a simple maker of rank.

For good reading and game logic, pick up Primal Order, by WotC. It
reects, in the words of Homer Simpson "my sen^monies exactly."

Dave=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 15:20:13 -0500

Would anyone out there be willing to buy a copy of the JM screen and
Besâry for me? I have a tough ^me nding anything mythus related out
here in Alabama. Email me if you can, and we'll work out a method of
payment.

********************************************************************
*********************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 18:24:17 -0400

At 02:38 AM 6/3/96 PDT, you wrote:
>>>A quesôn: Could the chart follow a geometric increase rather than a
>>>simple arithme^c increase?

Would someone please repost or send me this chart via E-mail aikido@cris.com?
>
>Essenâlly this is how I see it (MHO, of course). I'd probably round up
>and give them 1000. But giving them scores at all kind of defeats the
>purpose of good GMing (see below). With deiês, scores should not maker.

I largely agree with this but the Primal Order does give guidance on
Persona's possibly akaining godhood. This is EXTREMELY dicult(as I think
it should be) but scores would be neccessary in this case to allow the
Persona to con^nue to be viable. I would not personaly run a divine level
campaign but for those who choose to scores would be required. I would
consider a Persona that had akained godhood to be re^red and have more
important things to do(see Primal Order) than adventure.
>>
>And I am denitely against direct contests with deiês - avatars, maybe,
>but a deity defeated by personas should be rare indeed. One killed (if
>such a sorry event ever occurred) would merely be banished from the PM
>plane for a ^me indirectly proporônal to his/her stature. And that
>deity would certainly be pissed when such banishment ended...

I would not conceive of any deity who has akained the status of Lesser
Deity(see Primal Order) or above this way. Whatever stats or abiliês that
deity has listed are the stats for the deiês projecôn into the PM plane.
Damage done against this projecôn(even though solid and capable of
physical acôns as well as cas^ngs) would only serve to kill o(for lack
of a beker term even though it is not in a true sense living) that
projecôn on the PM plane. The deity would s^ll be able to "project" other
images and of course physicaly send such things as avatars etc. For purposes
of damage I would say that 1000 points of damage done on the PM plane would
equal one point of primal ux to the deity. This is assuming damage gets
through the primal shield(Primal Order). This is of course just my opinion.
I agree that contest even between Personas and these "projecôns" of
deiês should probably NOT occur and be EXTREMELY rare if they ever do.
However the descen^ng(sp check) point here is that a Persona could not
banish a deity from any plane but merely cause a minor disturbance on the PM
plane.
>
>>I'm denitely not going to try to embellish gaming stats for the
>>deiês...that way lies madness without the proper guidance. And Gary never
>>did get to embellish that eec^vely. Like he does, I suggest keeping the
"biguns" (those over>>Demigodhood) unkillable and unapproachable by normal
circumstances.
>
>True. That's why there are soldiers and there are generals. Generals
>don't need to engage the enemy, as a simple maker of rank.

I agree with the above post.(if anybody cares)
>
>For good reading and game logic, pick up Primal Order, by WotC. It
>reects, in the words of Homer Simpson "my sen^monies exactly."
>
>Dave>
Just a note,the Primal Order book is what I used when looking into crea^ng
deiês. I saw online(somewhere) someone had wriken Primal Order/Mythus
conversion rules perhaps these could be reposted. WotC. also produced one or
two more books in this line Pawns in Moôn(?) that gives details about
priest/clerics and the like.

Regards,
Michael
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 17:54:16 -0400
In-Reply-To: <199606032224.SAA28826@darius.cris.com>

On Mon, 3 Jun 1996, Michael J. Weaver wrote:

> Just a note,the Primal Order book is what I used when looking into crea^ng
> deiês. I saw online(somewhere) someone had wriken Primal Order/Mythus
> conversion rules perhaps these could be reposted.

hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/convert/primal.html

No need to repost, I can mail text copies to anyone unable to access the web.
Or, for that maker, the gopher/FTP server at vp.nspace.com, which has
(I believe) the original message.

(the idea here is to save bandwidth ;-) )

-- __+__
Mike Phillips, mike@lawlib.wm.edu | |#|#| | LINUX: The |
Mythus: hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/ | |L|L| | choice of a |
Home page: hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/ | |L|L| | GNU Generaôn |
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 23:32:50 -0700
From: Jeremy Dahlin <dahli923@UIDAHO.EDU>

> Would anyone out there be willing to buy a copy of the JM screen and
>Besâry for me? I have a tough ^me nding anything mythus related out
>here in Alabama. Email me if you can, and we'll work out a method of
>payment.
>
> ********************************************************************
> Gravitaôn, n. The tendency of all bodies to approach one another
> with a strength proporônal to the quan^ty of maker they contain> the quan^ty of maker they contain being ascertained by the strength
> of their tendency to approach one another. This is a lovely and
> edifying illustraôn of how science, having made A the proof of B,
> makes B the proof of A.
> -Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dicônary"
> *********************************************************************
>

If they are s^ll in the game store here, I would. I'll have to check up
on it. I need to get another copy of the Mythus Book and the Magic book
anyways.

Jeremy
" *SNAPP* Where there's a whip there's a way."
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 02:51:15 -0400
Subject: Primal Order Conversion


>hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/convert/primal.html

I was unable to connect to this site. Is it just bad luck or is the address
incorrect?

Thanks for your help,

Jason
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 03:35:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Primal Order Conversion

At 02:51 AM 6/4/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/convert/primal.html
>
>I was unable to connect to this site. Is it just bad luck or is the address
>incorrect?
>
>Thanks for your help,
>
>Jason
>
I was also unable to connect to this site. I no^ced that Mikes Mythus page
doesn't show up on my net search results anymore. One would hate to see a
great site like that disappear, lets hope its just being updated or that the
address is wrong. If anyone does have this conversion would you please post
it or E-mail aikido@cris.com? Does anyone know about the page?

Thanks,
Michael

p.s. yes I meant dissen^ng in my last post.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 08:13:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Primal Order Conversion
In-Reply-To: <199606040735.DAA12426@darius.cris.com>

On Tue, 4 Jun 1996, Michael J. Weaver wrote:

> At 02:51 AM 6/4/96 -0400, you wrote:
> >In a message dated 96-06-03 19:41:47 EDT, you write:
> >
> >>hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/convert/primal.html
> >
> >I was unable to connect to this site. Is it just bad luck or is the address
> >incorrect?

Bad luck. hkpd had crashed (sorry).

I don't always no^ce when hkpd goes down, although this is the rst
^me I've had any trouble with Apache.

> I was also unable to connect to this site. I no^ced that Mikes Mythus page
> doesn't show up on my net search results anymore. One would hate to see a
> great site

<BLUSH>

> like that disappear, lets hope its just being updated or that the
> address is wrong.

Um, the address is correct, the site isn't going anywhere any^me soon
(and if it is, I'll nd another server, trust me!)

> Does anyone know about the page?

I was running Apache 1.0.1. I'm not sure if it didn't re-start when I
had to reboot the computer, or if it crashed. I just upgraded to 1.0.5.
It *should* be running now (and it was when I just checked).

If you or anyone else runs into problems with my web page, PLEASE let me
know!

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 09:21:00 PDT
Subject: Books

Howdy, all.

The group I game with is in need of several books and I was wondering if
anyone out here in net land lived near a store that s^ll has copies (all
the stores near me are sold out of all mythus stu except now and then I
stumble across an issue of Dangerous Journeys).

The items needed are:

1 copy of main rules (book 1)
2 copies of magic rules (book 2)
1 copy of JM screen

If anyone could help out it would be great. I don't care if one source can
get them or if I have to go through 4 sources. Thanks bunches!

Paul "Tired of lending his falling apart magic book" Wocken
scg@wsdot.wa.gov
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 16:19:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Books

At 09:21 AM 6/4/96 PDT, you wrote:
>Howdy, all.
>
>The group I game with is in need of several books and I was wondering if
>anyone out here in net land lived near a store that s^ll has copies (all
>the stores near me are sold out of all mythus stu except now and then I
>stumble across an issue of Dangerous Journeys).
>
>The items needed are:
>
> 1 copy of main rules (book 1)
> 2 copies of magic rules (book 2)
> 1 copy of JM screen
>
>If anyone could help out it would be great. I don't care if one source can
>get them or if I have to go through 4 sources. Thanks bunches!
>
>Paul "Tired of lending his falling apart magic book" Wocken
>scg@wsdot.wa.gov
>
>Paul,

The game shops in my city(San Antonio) s^ll have copies of Mythus
Magick(about$11.95). Book 1 seems to be geing rarer but I know some
Houston shops have them(regularly travel there) no idea of price. I would be
glad to purchase any of them for anybody who needs them but only per
request(don't want to be stuck with 5 magick books etc.) Will mail them via
cheapest way(bookrate ?) rst class if you want [You pay postage either way].

Also, one might rst try Crazy Egors Discount Games Warehouse (716)427-2190.

Regards,
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:37:00 PDT
Subject: Re: Books

Michael,
I can guarantee the purchase of 2 magic books and one main rule book so
if you can nd them, let me know the total cost plus shipping charges and I
will send you a check for them. Thanks!

Paul Wocken
scg@wsdot.wa.gov
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 09:00:04 +0200

At 14:31 3-06-96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>Have you looked through the Journeys and Mythic Masters magazines I remember
>>something on new marâl arts moves and so forth maybe theres something in
>>there I'll look
>
>It's in #2 (orange cover).

It's wonderful to know its colour. ;)

But what does it SAY ??????????

(I don't have it thanks to TSR.)

Harold Stringer
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 03:46:50 -0400

>(2) So, what's up with Loren K. Wiseman and the process of geing the
>script to ASCALON.

>==================
>John R. Troy (JRT)
>johntroy@âc.net
>==================

I've made contact with Loren. What is the procedure for subscribing to
Mythus-L? (Sorry, it's been so long I've forgoken.)

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:32:23 -0500
From: Ken Kitowski <kkitow@HEALTH1.UWSP.EDU>
Subject: Mythus Character Generator

Hello all. One thing that seems to get people
discouraged (or at least lose enthusiasm) when
introducing them to Mythus is the amount of ^me it
takes to make an HP, therefore I am going to commit
myself to making a top notch Mythus HP generator.
I think that this would be a valuable tool for all
of us Mythus people. I have "surveyed" the exis^ng

programs and have not found any that seem to be
complete and "friendly".

I would probably make this as a Windows program,
but could be persuaded to try to make it a Java
applicaôn if there are enough Mac (and other
plaorms) folks out there. I have just begun to
learn Java and am not aware of all of its
limitaôns (can it print?...or do I have to
make a page of some kind and rely on the browser to
print?) so I am not sure how good of a product I
could make with Java. The language is easy enough,
and I just got a great development tool (Symantec
Cafe 1.2). Like I said, I would like this to be
a top notch product and I'm not sure yet if Java
can deliver what I need.

I would love to have input from all of you about
this project. It seems that using computers with
Mythus has just become a hot topic, so I gured
I would put in my 2 cents.

Later,
Ken Kitowski.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 17:18:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Mythus Character Generator
In-Reply-To: <31B74057.682E@health1.uwsp.edu>

Ken
I have a number of ideas to make HP generators "nivy," but I haven't had
the ^me to do it all myself... :) ANything you can provide would be
appreciated!

One quesôn: Would you allow the rest of us to see/use the source code?
I'm sure dierent people have dierent ideas on HP generaôn, and the
ability to modify an exis^ng framework would be incredibly useful.

One other thing (to toot my own horn!): I created a smallish program with
Visual Basic (32-bit) to choose and calculate AF's for Mythus. I've
modied the charts a bunch, so really it's only Mythus in the sense that
it uses the rules base. However, it's preky neat, even though it ain't
quite done yet... :)

Should anyone like to see/use/add to it, let me know, and I'll see if I
can zip it up and put it somewhere... :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 17:03:15 -0500

Just an idea for you PC ppl, I build a MS-Excel spreadsheet with all
of the K/S's and their sub-areas, as well as a "Stat sheet". I entered
in all of the equaôns for genera^ng the STEEP as well as Heka from
each K/S (minus the modiers for Full cas^ng and pacts). I'm currently
working on a lter for each class that will print out all of the K/S's
included in the class. This also lets the player skim through a total
list of all the K/S's to choose his elec^ve's (as well as giving him and
idea of his nal STEEP, minus the 2d10 of course). The reason I posted
this idea here is so that someone with a likle more expierence with OLE
codeing could make a random # generator that would feed the "stat sheet".
Someone could also design a simple script of some sort to create lters
for EP's.... Also, it's a simple maker to print out these spreadsheets,
and if you set it up in a prety format....wollah...instant char. sheet.

Food for though...
drew

********************************************************************
*********************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:37:53 -0400

I would be interested in the windows character generator...I don't know how
to program myself so I can't help but I'd love to try it when its done...

Bill

"Why for you put me in the cold cold ground?" -Taz Devil
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:04:58 +0100

>Hello all. One thing that seems to get people
>discouraged (or at least lose enthusiasm) when
>introducing them to Mythus is the amount of ^me it
>takes to make an HP, therefore I am going to commit
>myself to making a top notch Mythus HP generator.
>I think that this would be a valuable tool for all
>of us Mythus people. I have "surveyed" the exis^ng
>programs and have not found any that seem to be
>complete and "friendly".
>
>I would probably make this as a Windows program,
>but could be persuaded to try to make it a Java
>applicaôn if there are enough Mac (and other
>plaorms) folks out there. I have just begun to
>learn Java and am not aware of all of its
>limitaôns (can it print?...or do I have to
>make a page of some kind and rely on the browser to
>print?) so I am not sure how good of a product I
>could make with Java. The language is easy enough,
>and I just got a great development tool (Symantec
>Cafe 1.2). Like I said, I would like this to be
>a top notch product and I'm not sure yet if Java
>can deliver what I need.
>
HEY! We Mac people play Mythus, too! :P
Seriously, at this ^me the only HP generators I have are those that I've
designed on Excel. None of these are truly complete or friendly (but they
do get the job done). I would love to have a HP generator that met these
qualicaôns, but I'm not about to give up my Mac to do it. I don't know
the rst thing about Java, but if you can make the thing cross-plaorm, I
know I'd try it out.

>I would love to have input from all of you about
>this project. It seems that using computers with
>Mythus has just become a hot topic, so I gured
>I would put in my 2 cents.
>
>Later,
>Ken Kitowski.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:52:09 -0400
In-Reply-To: <v01520d00addcbf9bdd86@[206.109.96.209]> from "Tom" at Jun 6,
96 06:04:58 pm

> HEY! We Mac people play Mythus, too! :P

Instead of wri^ng it for windows, (using visual basic?) write it
in a language that is fairly easy to port, like C++. As long as you
don't use any of the non-portable libraries(sp?), it can be ported to any
system with minor changes.

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 19:35:37 -0700

At 03:46 AM 6/6/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>(2) So, what's up with Loren K. Wiseman and the process of geing the
>>script to ASCALON.
>
>>==================
>>John R. Troy (JRT)
>>johntroy@âc.net
>>==================
>
>I've made contact with Loren. What is the procedure for subscribing to
>Mythus-L? (Sorry, it's been so long I've forgoken.)
>
>Don

Are you interested in handling this??
If so please do so.
I am just too damn busy.

Thanks!!!

Mike

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 23:51:29 -0400

I've forwarded the instrucôns on subscribing to MYTHUS-L to Loren. He has
asked me to not say anything further just yet.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 03:42:06 -0400
Subject: What ever happened to...?

Does anyone know what ever happened to Alan Kellogg,the one ^me ocial
Dangerous Journeys Rules Lawyer? Is he a subscriber to this list? Has he
done any MYTHUS material?

What ever happened to Steve Magi,the one ^me Editor-in-Chief of JOURNEYS
magazine? Same quesôns is he on this list,has he wriken any material?

I applaud Dave Newton for taking an ac^ve interest in this list and MYTHUS
players. It was a Great and pleasant suprise to nd him on the list.

Michael John Weaver

"Against stupidity the very gods
Themselves contend in vain."
Schiller,"The Maid of Orleans,III"
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 04:15:49 -0400
Subject: Re: What ever happened to...?

Interes^ng you should menôn Alan Kellog. He lives (or lived) in San
Diego, because when I started my Mythus campaign in '92 I found a message
from him on the gamer's bulle^ng board at our biggest local gaming store.
He wanted to play Mythus. I tried contac^ng him at the number he lev but
there was some mistake, because the number was a business and not a
residence. I think he may have tried to run a Mythus demo in '93 at ComiCon
here in SD. Someone had a Mythus table; though I didn't ask him his name, it
seems logical I was speaking to Mr. Kellog. He was upset that the demo had
been omiked from the ocial program.

Other than that, I have no info.
Don
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 04:56:56 -0400
Subject: Re: What ever happened to...?

>Does anyone know what ever happened to Alan Kellogg,the one ^me ocial
>Dangerous Journeys Rules Lawyer? Is he a subscriber to this list? Has he
>done any MYTHUS material?

Mr. Kellogg was a correspondent with a pen-pal of mine, Michael Hopcrov.
I'll see if he knows what happened to him. AK was or is a contributor to
Alaurms and Excursions, an APAzine that Mike contributed to, and it was
there he would vigerously defend DJ from scores of detractors (thus Gary's
reference in MMM #3)

It is doubul AK could contribute to the list, however. He didn't own a
computer! (Yes--he Edited the Beasâry without one. Ayi!)

>What ever happened to Steve Magi,the one ^me Editor-in-Chief of JOURNEYS
>magazine? Same quesôns is he on this list,has he wriken any material?
>
He was let go from GDW--a layo that was supposed to be temporary un^l the
company got back on their feet. (Which sadly never happened).
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:04:32 +1000

I am an old-^me Mythus player and I recently picked up the en^re set of
rules manuals in a Mind Games Store for $30 Australian. However, all my
RPG buddies are too used to TSR character creaôn to take the ^me over
a mythus HP...any assistance would be awesome...am running win3.1 on a
4MB 386...(Dark ages stu I know...;-)




:)

monk
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:06:50 +1000
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.93.960606171526.27456B-100000@autarch.acsu.bualo.edu>

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'll grab a copy if one's avqailable...:)




:)

monk
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:08:04 +1000
X-To: "Andrew D. McDowell" <mcdowad@MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960606165411.24121B-100000@mallard.duc.auburn.edu>

If you s^ll have that, A copy would much appreciated...help me spread
the word...:)

---------------
Jimi...the Monk from elsewhere monk@melbourne.DIALix.oz.au



:)

monk
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:02:04 -0400

>I would love to have input from all of you about
>this project. It seems that using computers with
>Mythus has just become a hot topic, so I gured
>I would put in my 2 cents.
>
>Later,
>Ken Kitowski.

Things-I-would-incorporate-if-it-were-me:

If possible, make all rule charts, vocaôn bundles, ect. into plain
ascii text les that the program reads upon execuôn. This makes it easy
for JM's to modify the program to suit the changes they've made to the rules
without needing sourse code and programming skill. I for one have made LOTS
of changes to the rules (and have weak programming ability)...

The same goes for what "dice" are rolled for stats and STEEP ect.

I would concentrate rst on the things that take the most ^me to
calculate normally, like armor, STEEP levels, spells (especially if you use
the books method) and such.

Another thought: If all the charts and spells names (oh dear!) are
in a specic text format then Ken could spread the labour about a bit. I'd
be willing to do some drudgery for a good character generator. In fact, if
everyone who wanted a copy did a bit of work on the text les (using the
original rules) that part would be done in no ^me.

Later,

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:07:25 -0500


This is a general response to all of the responses.

1) Source code availability. Yes, I will make the source
available to anyone who requests it. However, I will not post
it to any public forum, and will ask any who receive the code
to refrain from doing so also. This is just to help reduce
the number of versions of modied code that may be oa^ng
out there. It keeps modicaôns more "personal" if you know
what I mean.

2) Jesse's program. I'd love to see it, but VB--yuck. :)

3) drew's Excel spreadsheet. I would like to see that also,
although I do not want to require someone to have a par^cular
program to use this program....although when I think about it,
that would make it a likle more cross-plaorm if implemented
in Excel.

4) Java or Delphi? When I program for windows, I program in
Delphi generally. It is by FAR the best programming enviroment
I have ever seen. (Beats VB hands down, Jesse. You should
try it if you can get your hands on a copy). Muten Roshi
suggested that I program it in a more portable language like
C or C++. I could do that, but I don't have any cross plaorm
GUI libraries, so it would be stuck to the Windows plaorm if
I did that as well. What I think I am going to do is to write
it in Delphi, then port it to Java, then maintain only the
Java version. I really don't know enough about Java yet to be
able to produce a quality product, but when I do, I will make
it a Java program. Anyone else have a beker soluôn? Or
maybe a cross plaorm C++ GUI library? (Sorry about this one
Mac folks).

5) If nothing else comes up, I am going to start programming it
this weekend (tomorrow). Anyone interested in geing preview
(read BETA) releases, email me. (Don't post it to the list).
I should have BETA1 available Monday or Tuesday.

Later,
krk.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:37:23 -0400
In-Reply-To: <199606070052.UAA27417@bael.umd.umich.edu>

> > HEY! We Mac people play Mythus, too! :P
>
> Instead of wri^ng it for windows, (using visual basic?) write it
> in a language that is fairly easy to port, like C++. As long as you
> don't use any of the non-portable libraries(sp?), it can be ported to any
> system with minor changes.

Or, you can pick a cross-plaorm GUI toolkit and go from there. TCL/Tk
comes to mind (there is apparently a very good Windows 3.1/95/NT and Mac
port, as well as prac^cally all Unices and OS/2). One advantage is that
TCL is an interpreted language, so as plaorm support is added, your
program *automa^cally* runs on the new plaorm :-)

Or there is V (my personal favorite), a clean, slick, small C++ GUI
framework. It currently has a Windows 3.1 and an X-Windows version, with
OS/2 expected out in a month or so, and a Mac version on-again
o-again. If you're a C++ programmer and have a Mac, it might be a fun
(and fairly trivial) port. hkp://www.cs.unm.edu/~wampler/ for more
informaôn.

I menôn these two in par^cular, since there's no reason to leave us
Unixheads out :-)

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:54:58 +0000

> This is a general response to all of the responses.
>
> 1) Source code availability. Yes, I will make the source
> available to anyone who requests it. However, I will not post
> it to any public forum, and will ask any who receive the code
> to refrain from doing so also. This is just to help reduce
> the number of versions of modied code that may be oa^ng
> out there. It keeps modicaôns more "personal" if you know
> what I mean.
>
> 2) Jesse's program. I'd love to see it, but VB--yuck. :)
>
> 3) drew's Excel spreadsheet. I would like to see that also,
> although I do not want to require someone to have a par^cular

> program to use this program....although when I think about it,
> that would make it a likle more cross-plaorm if implemented
> in Excel.
>
> 4) Java or Delphi? When I program for windows, I program in
> Delphi generally. It is by FAR the best programming enviroment I
> have ever seen. (Beats VB hands down, Jesse. You should try it if
> you can get your hands on a copy). Muten Roshi suggested that I
> program it in a more portable language like C or C++. I could do
> that, but I don't have any cross plaorm GUI libraries, so it would
> be stuck to the Windows plaorm if I did that as well. What I
> think I am going to do is to write it in Delphi, then port it to
> Java, then maintain only the Java version. I really don't know
> enough about Java yet to be able to produce a quality product, but
> when I do, I will make it a Java program. Anyone else have a beker
> soluôn? Or maybe a cross plaorm C++ GUI library? (Sorry about
> this one Mac folks).
>
> 5) If nothing else comes up, I am going to start programming it this
> weekend (tomorrow). Anyone interested in geing preview (read
> BETA) releases, email me. (Don't post it to the list). I should
> have BETA1 available Monday or Tuesday.

Write it in Delphi...

Later Daniel.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 13:17:07 -0400

Hey gang,

As another Mac user (well, it's not like I don't use PCs too) I'm also
very much interested in having a Mac version of the character
generator. GUI problems are inevitable, but I think C++ or Java would
make por^ng easiest.

Maybe it's ^me for me to look more seriously at CodeWarrior's
capabiliês. I know I can compile for Windows and 95, but have never
had reason to do it before. Are there any compilers like this on the
Windows side? I bet it's a royal pain even if it works...

Anyhow, I'm more of a Lisp man myself, but I'd be glad to help out to see
this get done. (Automa^c heka calculaôn...thank God!)

Ciao,
Pat
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:17:02 +0000
Reply-To: jsharpe@portal.ca
Comments: Authen^cated sender is <jsharpe@pop3.portal.ca>
Organizaôn: UIS

> 4) Java or Delphi? When I program for windows, I program in
> Delphi generally. It is by FAR the best programming enviroment
> I have ever seen. (Beats VB hands down, Jesse. You should
> try it if you can get your hands on a copy). Muten Roshi

Delphi is a RAD package and I agree its very good.

> suggested that I program it in a more portable language like
> C or C++. I could do that, but I don't have any cross plaorm
> GUI libraries, so it would be stuck to the Windows plaorm if

Well, program it for your enviroment and let those of us with
dierent requirements port it - for me that would be Linux. I'd
also suggest the C/C++ route. :-)

> I did that as well. What I think I am going to do is to write
> it in Delphi, then port it to Java, then maintain only the
> Java version. I really don't know enough about Java yet to be
> able to produce a quality product, but when I do, I will make
> it a Java program. Anyone else have a beker soluôn? Or
> maybe a cross plaorm C++ GUI library? (Sorry about this one
> Mac folks).

I also am only passing familiar with Java, so I can't comment on
that. I would suggest a GNU CC developement project so por^ng is
fairly simple across various plaorms (I've done OS/2, DOS,
SunOS, and Linux-ELF/a.out). Perhaps create a simplied linked db (or
use a popular cross-plarom package like Oracle) and put the data
into tables. I've been doing that for Borland Paradox and C packages
for years. This would allow dynamic data (for user dened changers
- ie, new vocaôns or modicaôns to skills - rpg'ers always like
to ^nker).

> 5) If nothing else comes up, I am going to start programming it
> this weekend (tomorrow). Anyone interested in geing preview
> (read BETA) releases, email me. (Don't post it to the list).
> I should have BETA1 available Monday or Tuesday.

Your going to have a beta by the beginning of next week and you
haven't passed your development phase yet? <g> Well I'm interested
in seeing it please.

Hope things go okay - if I can help...

Je

-Je Sharpe
<jsharpe@portal.ca>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:52:54 -0400
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SV4.3.91.960607200154.4362C-100000@melbourne.DIALix.oz.au>

On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, James Helm wrote:

> I am an old-^me Mythus player and I recently picked up the en^re set of
> rules manuals in a Mind Games Store for $30 Australian. However, all my
> RPG buddies are too used to TSR character creaôn to take the ^me over
> a mythus HP...any assistance would be awesome...am running win3.1 on a
> 4MB 386...(Dark ages stu I know...;-)

Here is an idea which I have used with great success. You are the JM, I
take it? If so, then create the HP's yourself. There are two ways to
start this: One, sit down with all your players and ask them exactly what
they want their HP's to be, and take notes. When you're done you should
have a preky good idea of what to give them. Then you create the HP and
give it back (probably in a couple weeks! :)) and make any necessary or
desired changes. Second, you could just make up a number of HP's and have
the players choose one at random. This has come in handy for my games as
well, as it really tests the role-playing ability of your players...

Hope that helped.

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:41:01 -0700

Subject: A trip to the local store
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.93.960608135035.14251A-100000@autarch.acsu.bualo.edu>

I just dropped by my local hobby shop to pick up a copy of Mythus Magic
that I had seen there some months back, and found to my dismay that all
the books were gone; that in fact the whole RPG secôn had diminished
considerably. As I was leaving, disappointed, I glimpsed back through the
window and spoked "GARY GYGAX" on a number of books hidden under a table
by the window of the store...I slipped back inside and ducked under the
table to nd the book I was looking for...and also several copies of
most of the other Mythus librams!

Apparently these haven't sold very well at this store and they're
scaling back their RPG stu, so everything Mythus is marked 50% o. Of
course, they marked up the prices a bit, so it's a bit more than half of
cover price, but s^ll...there is at least one copy of Book 1, several of
Book 0, two Mythus Magics, 3 Besâries, 3 Necropoli, and 3 Epics of Aerth.
With tax, each of the books is about $13 (except for Prime, which is
$7.50). I oer to purchase these for anyone who is interested and can
send me a suitably SASE and check. Interested? Drop me a private e-mail
at harold@svpal.org. Apparently they no longer have the JM screen, but I
may be wrong.

Harold
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 04:28:57 -0400
Subject: Heka List
X-To: jstanton@qualcomm.com

John,

Here is the most recent incarnaôn of the Heka list. As far as I know, the
footnotes are s^ll the same so I won't akach them here. There is s^ll one
unresolved quesôn regarding Heka-Forging, but it only applies in a very
specialised case as far as I know, so don't worry about it.

Don

******************************************************************************
*********

Heka Generaôn By K/S Area:

Apotropaism = STEEP + avg. of MMCap & MRCap
Astronomy = STEEP + MMCap (only applies to Astrology Cas^ngs)
Demonology = STEEP + MMCap

Dweomercraev, General = STEEP + MM CATEGORY (Parâl Prac^ce)
Dweomercraev, School (each) = STEEP + MM Cap (Parâl Prac^ce)
Magick = STEEP + MR CATEGORY
Spellsongs = STEEP + avg. of MMSpd & MRSpd

Endurance = STEEP + avg. of PMPow & PNPow
Gemsmith/Lapidary = STEEP + PNPow
Heka-Forging = STEEP + avg. of PMPow & PNPow
Music = STEEP + avg. of PMSpd & PNSpd (only applies to Spellsongs Cas^ngs)
Smithing/Welding = STEEP

Alchemy = STEEP + SM CATEGORY
Astrology = STEEP + SPCap
Conjuraôn = STEEP + avg. of SMPow & SPPow
Divinaôn = STEEP + SPCap
Exorcism = STEEP + SMCap
Fortune Telling = STEEP + SPPow
Herbalism = STEEP + SM CATEGORY
Mediumship = STEEP + SPPow
Metaphysics = STEEP + SMCap
Musical Composiôn = STEEP + SMPow (only applies to Spellsongs Cas^ngs)
Mys^cism = STEEP + SP CATEGORY
Necromancy = STEEP + SMPow
Occul^sm = STEEP
Pantheology = STEEP
Poetry/Lyrics = STEEP + avg. of SMSpd & SPSpd (only applies to Spellsongs
Cas^ngs)
Priestcraev, Basic = STEEP + SM CATEGORY (Parâl Prac^ce)
Priestcraev, Ethos = STEEP + SM Cap (Parâl Prac^ce)
Religion = STEEP + SP CATEGORY
Sorcery = STEEP + avg. of SMPow & SMSpd
Witchcraev = STEEP + SPSpd
Yoga = STEEP x 2

Any other quesôns just e-mail me. I'll post this to the list, too, to see
if anyone else has addiônal comments.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 09:07:47 -0400
Subject: Alan Kellog's Address

If you're looking for Alan Kellogg, he can be reached at the following locale.

Alan Kellogg
435 13th St. #317
San Diego, CA 92101-7501

He hath no computer or E-Mail address. Thanks to Mike Hopcrov for
contac^ng him.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 12:15:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Alan Kellog's Address

>If you're looking for Alan Kellogg, he can be reached at the following locale.
>
>Alan Kellogg
>435 13th St. #317
>San Diego, CA 92101-7501
>>
>Thanks I appreciate this. Anyone have an address for Steve Magi(the former
JOURNEYS editor)?

On a dierent note: I am currently reading the MYTHUS-L archives les. I
have read through 1992 and am about half way through 1996. Yes, that leaves
1993-1995 to catch up on. When I have completed 1996(and I am taking notes)
I will post more ac^vely to the list opinions and suggesôns on topics
that were discussed. The topics may be a likle late but some topics
probably deserve revisi^ng once in a while.

Sincerely,
Michael John Weaver

"Reason is and always ought to be a slave to the passions."
David Hume
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 17:03:41 -0700
From: "William T. South" <tsouth@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Got the Besâry! Thanks!
In-Reply-To: <960528023018_311748057@emout14.mail.aol.com> from "Jason Furedy"
at May 28, 96 02:30:19 am

I got it! Man, it is really a work of art and I just want to thank
you for helping out. I no^ced that you paid $5.00 for the postage.
Did my money order cover your costs? If you ever need anything
please just ask.

Todd...
- ______ __ __ ____ __ __
/\__ _\__________/\ \____/\ \___/\ _`\_tsouth@netcom.com/\ \__/\ \______
\/_/\ \/ ___ \_\ \ \_\ \ \ \,\L\_\ ___ __ __\ \ ,_\ \ \___ \
\ \ \ \ / __`\ /'_` \ /'_` \ \/_\__ \ / __`\/\ \/\ \\ \ \/\ \ _ `\ \
\ \ \ \/\ \L\ \/\ \L\ \/\ \L\ \ /\ \L\ \/\ \L\ \ \ \_\ \\ \ \_\ \ \ \ \ \
\ \ \ \_\ \____/\ \___,_\ \___,_\ \ `\____\ \____/\ \____/ \ \__\\ \_\ \_\ \
\ \__\/_/\/___/ \/__,_ /\/__,_ / __\/_____/\/___/__\/___/___\/__/_\/_/\/_/__\
\/_Modest_Humble_Unpretenôus_Just_Fair_<Whew!_Got_THAT_ouka_my_system!>__/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 12:56:17 +1300
From: Dwayne Carnachan <dwayne@WAIKATO.AC.NZ>

Does anyone know of a decent shareware or freeware program for genera^ng
characters for dangerous journeys.

I have had the game for awhile now and have decided to try and get back into
it - i just nd character generaôn to take ages some^mes and it would be
much beker to have a program.

I found one on one of the websites for windows which is ok - but are there
any more available or has someone wriken their own?

===================================================================
Dwayne Carnachan
Social Sciences Computer Support
The University Of Waikato
ext 6013

"Face it, if everything worked I'd be out of a job" :-)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 12:54:49 -0700
Subject: Mythus books

Hello all!

I'd like to thank everyone who responded to my oer of picking up
books at the local game shop for 50% o. So many people responded! All
copies of the books are accounted for, however, but for two copies of
Epic of Aerth, also at 50% o. Anyone interested?

Harold
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 16:19:39 -0400

Subject: Re: Mythus books
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.88.9606101208.A5598-0100000@svpal.svpal.org>

Indeed, I'm interested in a copy of the Epic of Aerth. It's the one
Mythus book I do not have. In your original post, you menôned that half-price
with tax came to around $13.00. If you can let me know what the total including
shipping to my address, I would be happy to get a money order in the mail to you
with 24 hours of receipt of your message containing the total.
Thanks,
Traki
Tracy A. Bandy
tbandy@cyberportal.net
PO Box 313
Windsor VT 05089-0313 USA
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 16:32:40 -0400
Subject: Oops! (Apology)

I wish to apologize to the list. A previous post which was intended for
an individual went to the list instead. (Oops!) Hell of way to introduce myself
to everyone else on the list.
Sorry!
Traki
Tracy A. Bandy tbandy@cyberportal.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 17:51:32 -0400
Subject: Character Generator

>>I would love to have input from all of you about
>>this project. It seems that using computers with
>>Mythus has just become a hot topic, so I gured
>>I would put in my 2 cents.
>>
>>Later,
>>Ken Kitowski.
>
>Things-I-would-incorporate-if-i-were-you:
>
> If possible, make all rule charts, vocaôn bundles, ect. into plain
>ascii text les that the program reads upon execuôn. This makes it easy
>for JM's to modify the program to suit the changes they've made to the rules
>without needing sourse code and programming skill. I for one have made LOTS
>of changes to the rules (and have weak programming ability)...
>
> The same goes for what "dice" are rolled for stats and STEEP ect.
>
> I would concentrate rst on the things that take the most ^me to
>calculate normally, like armor, STEEP levels, spells (especially if you use
>the books method) and such.
>
> Another thought: If all the charts and spells names (oh dear!) are
>in a specic text format then Ken could spread the labour about a bit. I'd
>be willing to do some drudgery for a good character generator. In fact, if
>everyone who wanted a copy did a bit of work on the text les (using the
>original rules) that part would be done in no ^me.
>
>Later,
>
> Chris
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 10:33:50 +1300
From: Dwayne Carnachan <dwayne@WAIKATO.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: Character Generator

Regarding using computers to generate characters,

I found a par^cularly good one to generate GURPS characters - I can just
imagine what sort of eort went into crea^ng that sort of system.
Something along those lines would be very good - hey i might even pay money ;)

Another thing - i guess it would need to be either in both mac and pc format...

There does seem to be a growing trend towards using computers to generate
characters and such - it surely makes the job as a gm (or wotever term) a
hell of alot easier!

===================================================================
Dwayne Carnachan
Social Sciences Computer Support
The University Of Waikato
ext 6013

"Face it, if everything worked I'd be out of a job" :-)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 05:38:26 -0400

Subject: Various

I have completed my reading of the 1992 and 1996(thru May 13) archives for
this list. I will be pos^ng my responses and opinions on several issues in
these post,I trust you will forgive me if the topics are not exactly ^mely.
I will however only address issues that I think can stand to be revisited.

1. Would someone please repost DI #6?

2. Has anyone considered crea^ng conversion rules for MYTHUS to CYBORG
COMMANDO or perhaps to original TRAVELLER by GDW? Would anyone be interested
in these? What game system would you convert from MYTHUS to account for the
Horror and Science genres that were supposed to be covered by UNHALLOWED and
CHANGELING?

3. Other quesôns,opinions,and ideas will be posted soon.

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 18:23:08 -0400
From: Lisa Lorens <LisaLynx@AOL.COM>
Subject: Tri-Gee's C.C.

Wow! I thought I was the only one who'd ever heard of Cyborg Commando.

No, I haven't considered conver^ng the rules, just using the old Gygax New
Inniês stu in Mythus by conver^ng ths stats. But if someone else
wants to do the conversion for CC, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Lisa
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 19:18:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Tri-Gee's C.C.


>Wow! I thought I was the only one who'd ever heard of Cyborg Commando.
>
>

Actually I've seen it, touched it, and even have (had?) a copy. Never played
it tho. Even read the book.... (so, so). Never found anyone in N. SD county
interested.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 20:31:14 -0400
From: "Prince O. Darkness" <Noc^fer@AOL.COM>

Yup, I'm back, and now from a new address and with a fairly useless piece of
yellow paper. :) On to Mythus...


>>Exactly! Any other fantasy RPG on the market is necessarily going to cut
>>into AD&D's market.
>
>I disagree with this. There are quiet a few fantasy RPG's out there now that
>do not cut into the VERY well established AD&D market. An addiônal point
>here is that if TSR acquires these things in order to reduce compe^ôn in
>the industry,there are an^-compe^ôn laws and perhaps the Jus^ce
>department should look into some of TSR's prac^ces. In any event TSR has
>declared thier is not a large enough market for the game so how could that
>cut in TSR's market. Do you realy think that people who buy MYTHUS products
>would suddenly stop buying AD&D products. I for one have not bought a TSR
>product since TSR acquired MYTHUS and encourage others to do the same. No in
>my opinion TSR would be catering to a market that they do not now have by
>suppor^ng MYTHUS.

I doubly disagree with it. The amount of money that I personally put into
TSR's products is fairly low (not because of any specic boycok, but
because I a) don't have the money, and b) need more generic things than TSR
is puing out these days (I've s^ll got my subscripôn to Dungeon going,
though). I ran Earthdawn for a while, another fantasy rpg out there (and a
good one), and it really didn't take away from my interest in or purchasing
of TSR products.

> Therefor, TSR would be foolish to release the game and
>>run the risk of it becoming a big player, or even a mediocre player.
>
> Under licensing agreements the smaller company would have a limited number
>of years to use these copyrights etc. if the game became a success TSR at
>the end of that ^me could con^nue to support it themselves. In the
>mean^me TSR would receive a percentage of the prot and sales thus
>enjoying economic benet for owning a system they are geing nothing from
>now.

To tell you the truth, it's a very, very good idea. The only thing I'd be
concerned with is the biggest thing that plagues Mythus: horrible edi^ng.

> It just
>>doesn't make sense.
>
>I also disgree with this I feel a company should try to make money on all
>thier assets.
>
> I don't think they'll ever do anything with it. I'd
>>suggest not was^ng any energy campaigning for it's revival or geing your
>>hopes up.
>
>My hopes are not up I expect nothing from TSR. What I actually wish is not a
>revival but for TSR to release/publish nished products already in thier
>possesion namely the UNHALLOWED book and the CITY OF ASCALON book.

There are going to be a lot of nay-sayers to geing anything done to revive
Mythus, either by those who are so cynical they can't imagine it happening
(most), or have goken so fana^cal in their hatred of TSR they think it
would destroy the game. More forthcoming...

Lucifer >:}
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 20:31:37 -0400


>My only suggesôn is to address it to Lorraine Williams (TSR president)
>and Jim Ward (TSR VP Crea^ve Services), instead of the generic "TSR Inc,"
>and put those names in the salutaôn.
>
>Please note that a leker campaign is what Lucifer was trying to get
>going, before. Don't let it fall apart.
>
>Oh, and don't everybody email me about it ... these should go through
>the post oce; the management needs tangible evidence of your interest
>and proof that you're willing to actually write down an address and s^ck
>a stamp on it.

Don't worry, I'm s^ll working on the Lazarus Project. I've been going
through all that graduaôn funness and such. I'll be repos^ng the original
message with some addiôns in the near future.

Lucifer >:}
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:16:54 -0400

>To tell you the truth, it's a very, very good idea. The only thing I'd be
>concerned with is the biggest thing that plagues Mythus: horrible edi^ng.

I think it was decent enough, considering its length and scope. I hope
people aren't basing this on some of EGG's complaints--which is some^mes
misinterpreted as being harsher than it is. (He was mostly complaining
about the NOVELS as well).

For instance, some people s^ll consider Lester Smith a "bad inuence".
Mike Phillips once nearly accused him of ripping o Changeling with the
then upcoming Metamorphasis Alpha un^l Frank set him straight. Hell,
Lester is now playing games with EGG down by Ol' Lake Geneva. No bad blood
there!

The edi^ng was decent. It was the sheer size that was daun^ng at ^mes.

>There are going to be a lot of nay-sayers to geing anything done to revive
>Mythus, either by those who are so cynical they can't imagine it happening
>(most), or have goken so fana^cal in their hatred of TSR they think it
>would destroy the game. More forthcoming...

I don't think it is Cynical to know the limitaôns of reviving Mythus. I
believe in keeping my feet upon the ground, though, and being a realist when
it comes to aairs such as this.

What do I consider are the limitaôns of it. Just the method and the
manner of the game system. There are several things going against it,
despite our love for the system.

Volume:

It's sheer size, for one, is something of a hinderance to any reprint run.
To reprint the whole text of the aair would cost a bundle, especially for
such a low iniâl outset.

Reputaôn:

The game has/had a bad reputaôn from the outset. The whys and wherefores
of this is moot...the writ is cast. Overcoming this would require an
investment of major proporôns. Considering how major companies are loath
to take risks (take a look at TV and Movies), it could be something they
don't wish to take a risk on.

Protability, or Lack thereof:

Suppor^ng this game system would be dicult at best. Right now, RPGs are
suering from a recession of sorts, brought on by changes in the economy,
gaming systems (Magic, Computers, Internet), etc.

TSR's current balance sheet and accoun^ng standards would not allow a
low-running game to endure. The only thing I could see them doing is
licensing the game out to a small publisher. But would the licensing fees
and low returns be worth the outlay?

Poli^cs/Facôns:

Here's the biggest kicker of them all. I remember the head of FASA making a
statement to the eect that the TSR suit vs. GDW & Gygax was both business
and personal. Now, one can blindly say that "no company would turn down a
potenâl prot for personal reasons". That is a patently false statement.
People can and do that all the ^me. If there is a dislike of EGG at the
company, there is absolutely nothing one can do to change that. Logic can't
inuence emoôn, straighorward. Humanity is a mixture of good and evil,
sane and insane, order and chaos.

And that applies. Sean has admiked that "people don't want to get Loraine
mad" when it comes to the whole DJ aair. That sort of spells things out
for me. I really doubt what fans want would inuence any emoôns on this
level to any degree.

And...well, this may cause some to denounce my view, but I doubt I'm alone
on this. If TSR decides to support DJ, they may do it without involving
EGG. If there is a grudge against him, I could consider this an ul^mate
insult. My loyalty to him would prevent me from ever suppor^ng such an
endeavor, and I am strongly opposed to such a situaôn occuring.

Some believe the creaôn to be more important than the creator. I
disagree. Creator's bring something to the table unique, and dilu^ng the
creaôn works against it. This is something I feel in most creaôns. To
use TSR as an example, I believe the only really good Forgoken Realms
products come from Ed Greenwood's personal pen. Other writers tend to
dilute it, and marke^ng dictates addiôns to the milieu that don't mesh
well. (Did Horde survive? Maz^ca?) Has Greyhawk been sa^sfactory
without EGG...I would say no.

Some, however, feel the same as me, and that is a notable facôn. Let's
face it, while some may dismiss us as "Gary Worshipers", for me, it's just a
desire to support EGG's work above others. (It's just IMO the best work
out there--hands down. Period.) And some feel the same--they want Gygax
involved and producing the works he does best. I would es^mate anywhere
from 10%-50% of the fans would agree with me, and not support a TSR DJ
without Gary. That would eec^vely cut the fan base signicantly, thus
cuing the

Handling:

Okay, let's say TSR does support a DJ, and its Garyless. So what do they do
with it?

First of all, they need designers. Now, here's the kicker. Have any
professional designers supported Mythus, outside Trigee/GDW? The answer
seems to be no. I don't see any here on the list. So, that means nobody
knows the game except us.

Now...what to do. Well, it is likely TSR would come to the writers of the
Mythus list to do work! We know it best, right?

However, one of the claims of "Project Lazarus" organizer Lucifer is the
fact that "the work here is inferior to what the pros can do". If so, than
this is self-defea^ng in a way. If TSR thinks that Mythus people aren't
condent in their own work, why support such a system

Now, if others feel this way, and TSR goes ahead with a revival, TSR gets a
pro or two to design it. The pros might decide to put their stamp on the
system. If they do, they could end up redesigning major porôns of it.
Would it then be the system you're used to? If not, then would you s^ll
support it?

============================================

This is not meant to get people down, but I think realism is key here. I
think a few people "Want to have their cake and eat it too". That's
unrealis^c. There are too many barriers aec^ng it, and one has to deal
with those realiês.

I think TSR //could// give us some things. They are unlikely to support
Mythus as a product, but via the Internet, they have been working to support
"dead products" by publishing unreleased manuscripts.

We could ask for the Unhallowed Manuscript, incomplete and unedited as it
is. That would give us something to really chew on. That would increase
ac^vity here, and give us more basis to work on. It would also get Mike
McCaulley's contribuôn OUT there to the public.

We could ask TSR to allow--/if he is willing/--Gary to release his works in
progress, such as Changeling, the unpublished MMM, etc. (Remember, some of
this stu is s^ll /his/ property and he may wish to recycle ideas for
another game system, so don't get hopes up. He has to make a living, y'know)

An alternate idea--and a very plausable one. Allow DJ to be supported by
Novels wriken by EGG, much as FREELancers has been. I am asking for EGG
for a few reasons. #1, there are at least 1.5 Setne stories wriken, so
there's no wai^ng period. #2, it allows a lot of "Campaign Background" and
examples to be introduced by Gary in the text, for use even if TSR doesn't
support the system. #3, it shows a cooperaôn on the part of EGG and TSR,
and would please fans of EGG and TSR fans. (Hey, we fans aren't going
anyplace, no maker what TSR does. They might as well get some money o of
us!) #4--it allows them to keep the trademark without changing the product
completely.

We could ask TSR to allow ocial recogniôn of Mythus events and RPGA
tournaments. That could increase support without cos^ng them anything.

Those, I think, are realis^c goals. Not a full revival, not a full
restoraôn, but something that I believe is within reason for TSR to grant.
Let's be realis^c here.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:25:45 -0400

At 06:23 PM 6/11/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Wow! I thought I was the only one who'd ever heard of Cyborg Commando.

Gygax collectors unite :) Actually I've seen this game on quite a few
shelves in gaming shops in Houston(and yes I own the game).
>
>No, I haven't considered conver^ng the rules, just using the old Gygax New
>Inniês stu in Mythus by conver^ng the stats. But if someone else
>wants to do the conversion for CC, I'd be interested in seeing it.

I have done this as well. Obviously great minds think alike.
>
>Lisa
>
Dear Lisa,

Ok,if YOUR interested in seeing them its being done(I'll start Wednesday).
Any one else that may have this game and be interested in assis^ng in this
venture please begin reading the games and post or E-mail me at
aikido@cris.com with your ideas and input.

What New Inniês stu are you using I have Baldemar and Aesheba(both
seings) and The Convert and The Abducôn of The Good King Despot(both
adventures)? Do you have any material I don't? Do I have any material you
would like?

Sincerely,
Michael John Weaver
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:56:21 -0400

In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960612021654.006d8a54@pop.âc.net>

On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, John R. Troy wrote:

> Mike Phillips once nearly accused him of ripping o Changeling with the
> then upcoming Metamorphasis Alpha un^l Frank set him straight.

WHOA! It was *not* my intent to imply he had ripped it o. It was my
intent to point out that the mechanics of hard s-f gun-wielding stu in
TSR's AMAZING ENGINE module BUGHUNTERS (not MA to Omega) *changed* when
Mr. Smith wrote it. I thought this was a Good Thing, although maybe I
wasn't clear enough (it meant that DJ had lev a las^ng impression on
him). And Mr. Metnzner's contribuôn to the thread, if memory serves,
was to comment on similariês between DJ: Changeling and MA.

And it's an ancient and (hopefully ended) sequence of posts.

> Lester is now playing games with EGG down by Ol' Lake Geneva. No bad blood
> there!

Yay! Nice to know *someone's* gaming.....

<bigg-o snip>

> However, one of the claims of "Project Lazarus" organizer Lucifer is the
> fact that "the work here is inferior to what the pros can do".

*Some* of the work here is inferior to what the pros can do. *Some* of
the work here (and, no, I'm not too^ng my horn) is beker than what
*some* of the pros do. I think a more accurate assessment would be that
the quality and quan^ty of the material from us amateur fans is more
inconsistent than the pros, because (a) it's done in one's spare ^me,
(b) there's no real 'editor', and (c) we do what we want to/have to for a
game, and don't ll it out because we didn't need to when we worked on
it :-)

*Now* I'm going to be immodest: I think that with an incen^ve (other
than 1 mail message of appreciaôn per, oh, every ten or so substan^ve
posts), such as seing my name on a cover or even buried in the back, and
a denite project goal, I could rank at least, oh, somewhere in the
middle of the pack of 'pros', or even (dare I say it) somewhere slightly
above the middle. Not at the Gygax level, of course :-)

And I'm sure y'all who disagree will cheerfully stu my vainglorious
hopes back into my mouth (or keyboard, as the case may be) ;-)

-- __+__
Mike Phillips, mike@lawlib.wm.edu | |#|#| | LINUX SAGA vol 2 |
Mythus: hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/ | |L|L| | Penguins of |
Home page: hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/ | |L|L| | Des^ny |
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:50:36 -0400
Subject: Edi^ng and Hybridizing

(edited out) Mike Phillips wrote,
>
>> However, one of the claims of "Project Lazarus" organizer Lucifer is the
>> fact that "the work here is inferior to what the pros can do".
>
>*Some* of the work here is inferior to what the pros can do. *Some* of
>the work here (and, no, I'm not too^ng my horn) is beker than what
>*some* of the pros do. I think a more accurate assessment would be that
>the quality and quan^ty of the material from us amateur fans is more
>inconsistent than the pros, because (a) it's done in one's spare ^me,
>(b) there's no real 'editor',

I willingly give my ^me and humbly oer my services as Editor for MYTHUS
material.

and (c) we do what we want to/have to for a
>game, and don't ll it out because we didn't need to when we worked on
>it :-)

This is exactly why there should be a editor. An editor would request
complete and corrected material from writers. Some work(I believe most)
should be geared toward all MYTHUS players.

In this regard I believe Hybrids of the MYTHUS game are somewhat
inappropriate. Now of course gaming is meant to be a fun enjoyable ac^vity
and if you are your group need to make major rule changes to enjoy the game
then by all means do so. However,hybrid MYTHUS games will create more
diculês for any players who switch groups and are used to playing a
dierent game thereby limi^ng the popularity and spreading of the game.
For example there was a post on line that said the JM had disposed of using
the magick rules and was crea^ng his own. This might well be a very
enjoyable RPG to play but it is not MYTHUS.
Now what I am sugges^ng here is that people who write MYTHUS material be
that seings,adventures,vocaôns, conversions,etc. write for MYTHUS as it
is wriken(plus the correcôns of obvious simple prin^ng mistakes) and let
the individual groups alter it if they want for themselves. This does not
mean the game can cannot be expanded,I for instance will begin work on
CYBORG COMANDO conversion rules thus expanding the DJ genre but I will write
with standard rules in mind not my personal tailoring of my individual campaign.

>
>*Now* I'm going to be immodest: I think that with an incen^ve (other
>than 1 mail message of appreciaôn per, oh, every ten or so substan^ve
>posts), such as seing my name on a cover or even buried in the back, and
>a denite project goal, I could rank at least, oh, somewhere in the
>middle of the pack of 'pros', or even (dare I say it) somewhere slightly
>above the middle. Not at the Gygax level, of course :-)

Good then do it. Lets put together a "book" of sov cover binding of all
substanâl rules correcôns(the prin^ng mistakes),opônal rules(for
those who wish to use them),adventures,vocaôns,conversions,etc. These can
be compiled,printed,bound and mailed out to everyone. Most of this material
will be original and the material that is not will only be printed for
discussion(correcôn) purposes,thus no copyright violaôns will occur. We
can all chip in and help with the prin^ng cost(with receipts for
everything) or it can be posted in a neat E-mail package but nothing will be
charged for peoples ^me etc. and no prot will occur(to prot would
violate a stagnant prot legal maker). This book is then released(with
consent of the authors) into public domain. As I said I will serve as editor
if no one else wishes to(there are certainly those with more experience than
I). NOW if anyone knows if this can or cannot be done legaly PLEASE post.

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 01:43:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Lazerus Etc.

------ =_NextPart_000_01BB5800.7FB78B00
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Just adding my $0.02 to the equaôn here..

Instead of trying to leverage TSR for Material for this ne system, why =
not as others suggest just write our own suppliments and distribute them =
on the Internet -FREE- of charge for *PERSONAL* use only. That way any =
implied copywrite violaôns are covered (mostly) by the Fair-Use Clause =
of the Federal Copywrite laws in that we are a non-prot organizaôn =
publishing material for our own personal use. If we are not duplica^ng =
or directly quo^ng rules/etc from the copywriken material but are =
oering "house rules" for the product there is likle that TSR can do. =
For years as long as gamers stayed clear of copying =
text/ideas/tables/etc from TSR copywriken material TSR has allowed =
gamers to publish "house rules" and "rules variants" for their game =
systems as long as you remember to put "Dangerous Journeys, Mythus =
Copywrite TSR Inc 1996". We just have to be VERY clear that the =
rules/ideas we are pos^ng are "house rules or rules variants" to the =
system, and not to quote material from the books, MMM, or wherever. We =
may even try as an organizaôn to obtain permission from TSR to use =
secôns/terms/etc from the system in a non-prot way.

To do the above well, and with some protecôn we should form a =
non-prot organizaôn. I would be glad to pay the $100 or whatever the =
fees are to register it. We just need to come up with a charter, and a =
membership policy, we cannot charge for membership. That way as a united =
BLOCK we can pe^ôn TSR, as a BLOCK we can organize mythus events. =
Instead of as a headless mass of enthusiasts, we have a single name, and =
one loud booming voice with a stack of signatures behind it, instead of =
all our individual and fu^le eorts. We might actually get something =
accomplished on the TSR front, who knows. Maybe we could even generate =
enough momentum to carry the DJ system on the Internet at ZERO =
publishing cost to TSR, ZERO cost, ZERO risk, Minimal commitment. our =
organizaôn would pick up the commitment to create material, modules, =
rules xes, edits etc. Hell maybe convert the rules to Adobe Acrobat =
even and allow a copywriken distribuôn online. Hell TSR could charge =
for the downloads if they wanted to, no prin^ng costs, no producôn =
costs, no edi^ng costs, no development costs?, another ^tle?? its a =
WIN WIN situaôn for them. But BEFORE we hit them up for it and over =
the head with it we need to be MUCH more organized and established. And =
what does it get us? perhaps a toehold in the industry, our names on =
modules/addons etc. Even if we get no cash for it. Some^mes doing =
things for free in the end leads to bigger and beker oportuniês later =
on, and to top it o we can try to revi^lize the BEST and most =
COMPREHENSIVE RPG system that has ever come out. Some game company might =
no^ce you, you get something on the resume. Who knows. I'm TOTALLY game =
for it if other people are.

As I had menôned previously, I have a few domains coming to me namely =
djourneys.org and mythus.org. I intend on seing up a web site and we =
can publish away on there.

Makhew Pearson
List Maintainer since it started....

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------ =_NextPart_000_01BB5800.7FB78B00-=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 02:13:53 -0400

I've got Cyborg Commando, too. I guess great minds DO think alike!

That brings up an interes^ng point. If memory serves--and it seems the
service is going downhill these days ;-) --wasn' t TSR in a big wrangle with
New Inniês over some of their products like "The Convert"? If I recall,
some changes had to be made in it before it could be released. Did TSR just
get more vitupera^ve between that lawsuit and the one they led over
Mythus, or were they on shakier legal ground in the rst instance?
Necropolis was originally slated to be released as a New Inniês Product
before that enterprise folded. I remember seeing the artwork for it at the
last GenCon I ever went to, when I got Gary to autograph something.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 10:20:14 -0400
Subject: The Copyright Law.

Copyright Laws...

The "Fair Use" excepôn is a tricky legal requirement, and it is not as cut
and dried as Mak Pearson makes it out to be. (Sorry Mak).

First of all, here is the Fair Use Clause from the USC

----------------------------------------------=A7107. Limitaôns on exclusive rights: Fair Use

Notwithstanding the provisions of secôns 106 and 106A, the fair use of a
copyrighted work, including such use by reproducôn in copies or
honorecords or by any other means specied by that secôn, for purposes
such as cri^cism, comment, news repor^ng, teaching (including mul^ple
copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement
of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any
par^cular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include -=
=20

1.the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a
commercial nature or is for nonprot educaônal purposes;=20

2.the nature of the copyrighted work;=20

3.the amount and substanâlity of the porôn used in relaôn to the
copyrighted work as a whole; and=20

4.the eect of the use upon the potenâl market for or value of the
copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a nding of fair
use if such nding is made upon consideraôn of all the above factors.

17 U.S.C.=A7 107 (1988 ed. and Supp. IV).
--------------------------------------
Okay, here are the problems to the "Fair Use" argument as applied to
Role-Playing.

Note the clause "for purposes such as cri^cism, comment, news repor^ng,
teaching (including mul^ple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or
research". In short, non-commercial EDUCATIONAL purposes, not RECREATIONAL
or ENTERTAINMENT. (Despite the prolicaôn of .edu domains here, I doubt
you're taking up RPG101 at the various colleges). =20

In short, you have to prove that you're publishing work for the good of
teaching or informing society (whether all-encompassing or a narrow secôn
thereof) in a legi^mate fashion. Otherwise, "Fair Use" doesn't apply.

Issue #4 is tricky too. The eect these works have on the market is a
factor. TSR has been concerned in the past about "Deriva^ve" works being
published. Alternate Campaigns, rule and rule systems, etc, are a potenâl
market drain for the company, /whether or not the company intends to exploit
that market or not/. =20

Let's use some examples:

Unocial Fan Clubs, Guides, etc., exist and have been successful for
things such as Music Ar^sts and S-F shows. Such are welcomed and are
legal, provided they don't go overboard. Synopsis and Analysis of shows are
allowed, and some have failed contests in courts. These complement, not
replace, the show/ar^sts. Stu like ocial photos, lyrics sheets,
actual recordings, etc. may be problema^c, and are normally unallowable
without permissions. Certain things, such as blooper reels or live concert
recordings are rather "iy", and depends on several factors.

Fan-côn is a thorny issue. Fan côn, even for non-prot purposes,
is ILLEGAL without permission. An author reserves the right to control his
or her works--that's part of the reason for copyright protecôn. (Parody
is another factor). So, why is it prolic. For the most part publishers
/allow/ it. Marvel and DC allow fanc, so to (I believe) Paramount for
Star Trek, etc.

In gaming, I believe work involving rules and rule systems for role-playing
are similar to fan côn, allowable only if the publisher says so.
Palladium games, for instance, (at least in the past) has refused to allow
any ar^cles involving their games to appear in magazines published by other
companies. This even involved a lawsuit against WoTC, back when they were
likle small-press sh (for Primal Order), and I believe the ruling favored
Palladium (if it wasn't sekled). =20

Thus, to do anything, you need permission from TSR. I don't know their
current stance in regards to the Internet creaôns. (WWW, Netbooks, etc.).=
=20
Sean would know that, and I invite him to speak on what's allowed and what
isn't.

My thought. As long as we discuss Mythus and DJ here, it comes under the
secôn of "Commentary". I am unclear to house rules, but I think ar^cles
such as that are valid--provided TSR does not object to them or forbid them,
and provided you provide no^ce of the work, trademarks etc. Reproducôn
of rules and rule systems are denitely out unless permission is given.
That would include MMM and the like. I would also say that use of any DJ
Artwork is in violaôn...I note one site (I think it's Doyce's) has the
Mythus cover art. The art now belongs to TSR, and may s^ll be owned in
part by Larry Elmore (maybe he gets royalês by reproducôns).

----------------------------------
Again, I provide this for realis^c dialog. "Fair Use" is some^mes
interpreted falsely. Too many people wrongly believe that they can write
anything they want based on somebody elses work as long as they don't charge
for it--and that's simply not true.

The copyright law regarding the vast Internet is strange, and in some cases
I nd the law to be very much a Cat's Cradle of red-tape. Currently,
legislaôn for the Internet is taking a conserva^ve approach towards
copyright law. I don't know what will happen with it. I do know that some
of the various proposals seem ridiculous...for instance, if you have a
Hyperlink leading to a web site that violates copyright, you are an
accessory and can be prosecuted.

Yet, I can also see the other side, and the need for crea^ve control and
protecôn of rights, whether I agree with the company/owner or not. If
such erodes, than what is the incen^ve to write if I have no rights?

A quesôn that can't be easily answered... at least at this ^me.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net =20
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 12:19:51 -0400
Subject: Re: The Copyright Law.

>Thus, to do anything, you need permission from TSR. I don't know their
>current stance in regards to the Internet creaôns. (WWW, Netbooks, etc.).

>Sean would know that, and I invite him to speak on what's allowed and what
>isn't.

Well, that's all covered in our online policy. Essenâl, you can
create whatever deriva^ve works for any TSR-owned game system
as long as you only upload it to TSR-approved sites (currently
AOL, GEnie, MPGN).

However, showing an amazing streak of sanity, TSR has decided to hold o
on geing people to remove their infringing material from other sites
UNTIL TSR has another high-speed easily accessed internet site ...
a TSR-controlled web site, for instance (and yes, this is one of the
things I'm working on, and we're even made some recent progress). This is
because people tend to be much more coopera^ve when they are only asked
to _move_ something, rather than _dele^ng_ it (which many prefer to do,
rather than going through the hassle of uploading to MPGN, the only current
TSR-approved site). So, for now, things are at a stands^ll.

>My thought. As long as we discuss Mythus and DJ here, it comes under the
>secôn of "Commentary". I am unclear to house rules, but I think ar^cles
>such as that are valid--provided TSR does not object to them or forbid them,
>and provided you provide no^ce of the work, trademarks etc. Reproducôn
>of rules and rule systems are denitely out unless permission is given.

With an interest in keeping the mailing lists open, I've goken legal
to ignore internet mailing lists (considering them "Commentary") as long
as they don't do any blatant copyright infringements (i.e., no repos^ng
chunks of the rules, or uuencoded art, etc.). So, please discuss to your
heart's content.

>I would also say that use of any DJ
>Artwork is in violaôn...I note one site (I think it's Doyce's) has the
>Mythus cover art. The art now belongs to TSR, and may s^ll be owned in
>part by Larry Elmore (maybe he gets royalês by reproducôns).

When it all comes down to it, ar^sts are paid to make art, and when you
copy that art without permission, no maker how much you disagree with
the person or company that owns it, it's essenâlly stealing; please
don't par^cipate in copyrighted artwork thev.

It may sound like I'm preaching, or standing on some kind of TSR soapbox,
but as an ar^st, I've had this opinion before I came to this company.

And no, I don't know the (C) status of the cover pain^ng of Mythus.
It's possible that GDW bought all of the art rights to it, or maybe they
just bought rst rights for use on that product. ::shrug::

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 12:39:18 -0400

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>Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 12:01:39 PDT
>From: Dave Newton <dave@abervon.com>
>Sender: Dave Newton <dirk@dirk.dirk.mindspring.com>
>Subject: RE: The Copyright Law.
>To: "John R. Troy" <johntroy@TIAC.NET>
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>John,
>Please post my response to your message below.
>
>Thanks,
>Dave>
>
>John Troy wrote:
>>Copyright Laws...
>>
>>The "Fair Use" excepôn is a tricky legal requirement, and it is not as cut
>>and dried as Mak Pearson makes it out to be. (Sorry Mak).
>
>Nothing legal should ever be taken as cut and dried. That's why there are
so many

>damn lawyers.... <grin> (I too am sorry, Mak).
>
>>First of all, here is the Fair Use Clause from the USC
>
>[snipped]
>
>>Okay, here are the problems to the "Fair Use" argument as applied to
>>Role-Playing.
>>
>>Note the clause "for purposes such as cri^cism, comment, news repor^ng,
>>teaching (including mul^ple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or
>>research". In short, non-commercial EDUCATIONAL purposes, not RECREATIONAL
>>or ENTERTAINMENT. (Despite the prolicaôn of .edu domains here, I doubt
>>you're taking up RPG101 at the various colleges). =20
>>
>>In short, you have to prove that you're publishing work for the good of
>>teaching or informing society (whether all-encompassing or a narrow secôn
>>thereof) in a legi^mate fashion. Otherwise, "Fair Use" doesn't apply.
>
>CORRECT!
>
>>Issue #4 is tricky too. The eect these works have on the market is a
>>factor. TSR has been concerned in the past about "Deriva^ve" works being
>>published. Alternate Campaigns, rule and rule systems, etc, are a potenâl
>>market drain for the company, /whether or not the company intends to exploit
>>that market or not/. =20
>
>Of course it doesn't maker whether or not the company wants to exploit the
market.

>If it is their property, they have the right to control it (see my comment
later

>this note).
>
>>Let's use some examples:
>>
>>Unocial Fan Clubs, Guides, etc., exist and have been successful for
>>things such as Music Ar^sts and S-F shows. Such are welcomed and are
>>legal, provided they don't go overboard. Synopsis and Analysis of shows are
>>allowed, and some have failed contests in courts. These complement, not
>>replace, the show/ar^sts. Stu like ocial photos, lyrics sheets,
>>actual recordings, etc. may be problema^c, and are normally unallowable
>>without permissions. Certain things, such as blooper reels or live concert
>>recordings are rather "iy", and depends on several factors.
>>
>>Fan-côn is a thorny issue. Fan côn, even for non-prot purposes,
>>is ILLEGAL without permission. An author reserves the right to control his
>>or her works--that's part of the reason for copyright protecôn. (Parody
>>is another factor). So, why is it prolic. For the most part publishers
>>/allow/ it. Marvel and DC allow fanc, so to (I believe) Paramount for
>>Star Trek, etc.
>
>Paramount has been very s^cky about Trek-based web sites. I think they are
trying

>to nip unlicensed material in the bud insofar as the internet is concerned.
>
>The point is it IS ILLEGAL to write about characters, worlds, events, plots
created

>by others. And trust me, we as authors (whoever "we" are) must defend our
rights

>from the start. Roger Zelazny and Bob Aspirin (among others) gave an
excellent

>panel at a convenôn about protec^ng the authors' rights against fan côn.
>
>Let there be no doubt, no maker how else I feel about TSR, Lorraine, GDW,
Gary,

>and all the others I've dealt with in this industry, I rmly side with the
owner

>of a copyright. In this case it is TSR.
>
>>In gaming, I believe work involving rules and rule systems for role-playing
>>are similar to fan côn, allowable only if the publisher says so.
>>Palladium games, for instance, (at least in the past) has refused to allow
>>any ar^cles involving their games to appear in magazines published by other
>>companies. This even involved a lawsuit against WoTC, back when they were
>>likle small-press sh (for Primal Order), and I believe the ruling favored
>>Palladium (if it wasn't sekled). =20
>
>Palladium and WotC sekled, and WotC removed the references.
>
>>Thus, to do anything, you need permission from TSR. I don't know their
>>current stance in regards to the Internet creaôns. (WWW, Netbooks, etc.).=
>>Sean would know that, and I invite him to speak on what's allowed and what
>>isn't.
>
>"Anything" is rather broad. My advice would be to limit discussions and
submissions

>to new material for the game, with the understanding that you are *basically*

>submiing it into the public domain, with no hope of making money or
protec^ng
>any crea^ve rights unless you are very, very careful to avoid linking your

>creaôn to DJ.
>
>In fairness to the copyright holder, exis^ng material should not be published

>here without permission, and *I* would not put more than a paragraph or a
table up.

>Even then, it would be in the context of a conversaôn regarding the material.
>
>I must say (IMNSHO, of course) that I have seen nothing here that warrants any

>problem.
>
>>My thought. As long as we discuss Mythus and DJ here, it comes under the
>>secôn of "Commentary". I am unclear to house rules, but I think ar^cles
>>such as that are valid--provided TSR does not object to them or forbid them,
>>and provided you provide no^ce of the work, trademarks etc. Reproducôn
>>of rules and rule systems are denitely out unless permission is given.
>>That would include MMM and the like. I would also say that use of any DJ
>>Artwork is in violaôn...I note one site (I think it's Doyce's) has the
>>Mythus cover art. The art now belongs to TSR, and may s^ll be owned in
>>part by Larry Elmore (maybe he gets royalês by reproducôns).
>
>Larry doesn't own the material as far as I know, but I'd take it down if
anyone

>made a fuss. Of course, now that John has brought akenôn to it, they
prob'ly

>will... ;)
>
>>Again, I provide this for realis^c dialog. "Fair Use" is some^mes
>>interpreted falsely. Too many people wrongly believe that they can write
>>anything they want based on somebody elses work as long as they don't charge
>>for it--and that's simply not true.
>
>CORRECT AGAIN
>
>>The copyright law regarding the vast Internet is strange, and in some cases
>>I nd the law to be very much a Cat's Cradle of red-tape. Currently,
>>legislaôn for the Internet is taking a conserva^ve approach towards
>>copyright law. I don't know what will happen with it. I do know that some
>>of the various proposals seem ridiculous...for instance, if you have a
>>Hyperlink leading to a web site that violates copyright, you are an
>>accessory and can be prosecuted.
>
>This is the fun part: Enforcing it over the net. Ever hear of a likle
thing called

>the Communicaôns Decency Act? They are going to have a real dicult ^me

>enforcing laws over such a confederaôn as the net.
>
>>Yet, I can also see the other side, and the need for crea^ve control and
>>protecôn of rights, whether I agree with the company/owner or not. If
>>such erodes, than what is the incen^ve to write if I have no rights?
>
>Which is the en^re purpose of copyright law.
>
>Dave>
>If triangles had a God, he would have 3 sides. -Montesquieu
>
>
>
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 14:22:17 -0400
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960612142014.0073a8c8@pop.âc.net> from "John R. Troy"
at Jun 12, 96 10:20:14 am

>
> Copyright Laws...
...
>
> Notwithstanding the provisions of secôns 106 and 106A, the fair use of a
> copyrighted work, including such use by reproducôn in copies or
> honorecords or by any other means specied by that secôn, for purposes
> such as cri^cism, comment, news repor^ng, teaching (including mul^ple
> copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement
> of copyright.
...
>
> Note the clause "for purposes such as cri^cism, comment, news repor^ng,
> teaching (including mul^ple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or
> research". In short, non-commercial EDUCATIONAL purposes, not RECREATIONAL
> or ENTERTAINMENT. (Despite the prolicaôn of .edu domains here, I doubt
> you're taking up RPG101 at the various colleges). =20

Nothing in the quote you've given bars RECREATIONAL or ENTERTAINMENT

purposes.

Cri^cism or comment need not be done for educaônal purposes:
we cri^cise or comment on aspects of the ADND game all the ^me
on ADND-L but for many of us that is RECREATION, not EDUCATION.

The quote includes some EDUCATION related items (teaching, scholarship,
research) but does not seem to require the purpose for which a copy
is made to be EDUCATION.

Note the use of the phrase "such as" which gives each item in the
list equal weight.

I'm not sure I follow your logic here: could you please clarify how you
reach your conclusion?

Greg Y
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 15:47:38 -0400

>>To tell you the truth, it's a very, very good idea. The only thing I'd be
>>concerned with is the biggest thing that plagues Mythus: horrible edi^ng.
>
>I think it was decent enough, considering its length and scope. I hope
>people aren't basing this on some of EGG's complaints--which is some^mes
>misinterpreted as being harsher than it is. (He was mostly complaining
>about the NOVELS as well).
>
>For instance, some people s^ll consider Lester Smith a "bad inuence".
>Mike Phillips once nearly accused him of ripping o Changeling with the
>then upcoming Metamorphasis Alpha un^l Frank set him straight. Hell,
>Lester is now playing games with EGG down by Ol' Lake Geneva. No bad blood
>there!
>
>The edi^ng was decent. It was the sheer size that was daun^ng at ^mes.

Edi^ng problems:

Spelling and grammar. Any editor worth his salt won't make mistakes like
this, and any decent computer will correct them. Simply not enough care went
into this, the most basic level of edi^ng. Hardly a page goes by that I
don't see a misspelled word or, worse, a word that looks like it was selected
from the bokom of the spellchecker list, and is completely inappropriate to
the sentence (able as opposed to any comes to mind...I just saw that one
today, but I forget where it was).

Magic. Apparently, the magic system was altered dras^cally in the nal
stages of edi^ng (from what I've heard, no facts here), and, unfortunately,
the OPs in the sample adventure weren't xed to reect these changes. This
problem didn't just extend to magic. Much of MMM was lled with things that
were intended to be in it, but didn't make the nal drav, though the things
weren't omiked from the every locaôn in the book that they were placed in
(Readied cas^ngs comes to mind immediately). Basically, it seemed like it
was really, really rushed to the stores, which is a really, really bad idea
for something as iniâlly complicated as Mythus. Yeah, Shadowrun might have
been able to get away with it, but not Mythus.

>>There are going to be a lot of nay-sayers to geing anything done to
revive
>>Mythus, either by those who are so cynical they can't imagine it happening
>>(most), or have goken so fana^cal in their hatred of TSR they think it
>>would destroy the game. More forthcoming...
>
>I don't think it is Cynical to know the limitaôns of reviving Mythus. I
>believe in keeping my feet upon the ground, though, and being a realist when
>it comes to aairs such as this.

Reality, then: Nothing gets done unless somebody tries. Yes, they might
fail. In this case, they'll probably fail, but why's that ever been a reason
not to try?

>What do I consider are the limitaôns of it. Just the method and the
>manner of the game system. There are several things going against it,
>despite our love for the system.
>
>Volume:
>
>It's sheer size, for one, is something of a hinderance to any reprint run.
>To reprint the whole text of the aair would cost a bundle, especially for
>such a low iniâl outset.

Agreed, but if GDW can do it (and I'm s^ll in the camp that Mythus would
have become a popular game if the suit had never occured), so can TSR...and
beker. It doesn't need hard binding or every page being full color. Yes,
TSR rarely puts out a book of such a high volume (in fact, I can't think of
anything they've put out even close to the scope of Mythus), but that doesn't
mean they won't.

>Reputaôn:
>
>The game has/had a bad reputaôn from the outset. The whys and wherefores
>of this is moot...the writ is cast. Overcoming this would require an
>investment of major proporôns. Considering how major companies are loath
>to take risks (take a look at TV and Movies), it could be something they
>don't wish to take a risk on.

Probably. Again, not a reason not to try, methinks.

>Protability, or Lack thereof:
>
>Suppor^ng this game system would be dicult at best. Right now, RPGs are
>suering from a recession of sorts, brought on by changes in the economy,
>gaming systems (Magic, Computers, Internet), etc.

I can't think of any ^me in the ten years or so I've been gaming that
anyone's told me that the RPG industry is improving economically, but they
seem to be doing beker and beker every day, from my standpoint (acôn
gures and a cartoon series for Bakletech, a prime ^me series for
Vampire:tM [now cancelled, yes, but not necessarily a strong blow to the
industry as a whole...if anything, the series has heavily improved White
Wolf's sales...and I got that one from a friend who's an intern there]).
*shrug* I've just heard that line too many ^mes to start believing it now.
No oense.

>TSR's current balance sheet and accoun^ng standards would not allow a
>low-running game to endure. The only thing I could see them doing is
>licensing the game out to a small publisher. But would the licensing fees
>and low returns be worth the outlay?

I don't know, but I'm not going to assume the nega^ve, here. I think the
game would most probably do best in this environment. It requires the gentle
and caring touch of a small (compara^vely) group of writers, not the in and
out processing of TSR. Now, if I was so fana^cal to think that any other
major company could get the rights to Mythus, I'd be sugges^ng that (okay,
maybe I am that fana^cal), but I think asking TSR to form a subsidiary
company for its more adult games is not a bad idea, and would remove many
poli^cal factors.

>Poli^cs/Facôns:
>
>Here's the biggest kicker of them all. I remember the head of FASA making a
>statement to the eect that the TSR suit vs. GDW & Gygax was both business
>and personal. Now, one can blindly say that "no company would turn down a
>potenâl prot for personal reasons". That is a patently false statement.
>People can and do that all the ^me. If there is a dislike of EGG at the
>company, there is absolutely nothing one can do to change that. Logic can't
>inuence emoôn, straighorward. Humanity is a mixture of good and evil,
>sane and insane, order and chaos.
>
>And that applies. Sean has admiked that "people don't want to get Loraine
>mad" when it comes to the whole DJ aair. That sort of spells things out
>for me. I really doubt what fans want would inuence any emoôns on this
>level to any degree.

Why not?

>And...well, this may cause some to denounce my view, but I doubt I'm alone
>on this. If TSR decides to support DJ, they may do it without involving
>EGG. If there is a grudge against him, I could consider this an ul^mate
>insult. My loyalty to him would prevent me from ever suppor^ng such an
>endeavor, and I am strongly opposed to such a situaôn occuring.
>
>Some believe the creaôn to be more important than the creator. I
>disagree. Creator's bring something to the table unique, and dilu^ng the
>creaôn works against it. This is something I feel in most creaôns. To
>use TSR as an example, I believe the only really good Forgoken Realms
>products come from Ed Greenwood's personal pen. Other writers tend to
>dilute it, and marke^ng dictates addiôns to the milieu that don't mesh
>well. (Did Horde survive? Maz^ca?) Has Greyhawk been sa^sfactory
>without EGG...I would say no.

Well, I strongly disagree with this (go gure). The Forgoken Realm's most
deplorable adventure I've ever read (something about Halls of the High King
or some such) was the worst-wriken adventure I've ever read, and it was
wriken by Greenwood. There are other authors who can add good things to the
creaôns of others, such as Salvatore (and others' who's names I am
forgeing...I'm on a deadline here...system's shuing down soon). I don't
believe that staying with one individual author does anything to embellish a
game...if anything, it makes it single-minded and, eventually, boring.
Diversity is the key here, methinks.

>Some, however, feel the same as me, and that is a notable facôn. Let's
>face it, while some may dismiss us as "Gary Worshipers", for me, it's just a
>desire to support EGG's work above others. (It's just IMO the best work
>out there--hands down. Period.) And some feel the same--they want Gygax
>involved and producing the works he does best. I would es^mate anywhere
>from 10%-50% of the fans would agree with me, and not support a TSR DJ
>without Gary. That would eec^vely cut the fan base signicantly, thus
>cuing the

Unfortunately, there do seem to be a lot of you; at the very least, you're a
vocal bunch. I'm afraid I'm one of those who has diculty wrapping my
brain around the concept, but that's just me. I separate the game from the
author (especially when there were so many other people involved...I'm not
about to shrug o Newton's contribuôn as being a minor one...and if it
wasn't, that means that the spirit of the game isn't necessarily lost...not
by a long shot).

>Handling:
>
>Okay, let's say TSR does support a DJ, and its Garyless. So what do they do
>with it?
>
>First of all, they need designers. Now, here's the kicker. Have any
>professional designers supported Mythus, outside Trigee/GDW? The answer
>seems to be no. I don't see any here on the list. So, that means nobody
>knows the game except us.

Eh...how many bona-de game designers are on the list...you know, either
freelance authors of adventures, etc. or working for a gaming company. I
personally know of two (Newton and Mentzer). I'm certain there are others,
but just because they're not on the list doesn't mean they'd not like DJ if
they were exposed to it. Chances are they've not heard of it, or, if they
have, never read it.

>Now...what to do. Well, it is likely TSR would come to the writers of the
>Mythus list to do work! We know it best, right?

Well, no, not in my book, at least.

>However, one of the claims of "Project Lazarus" organizer Lucifer is the
>fact that "the work here is inferior to what the pros can do". If so, than
>this is self-defea^ng in a way. If TSR thinks that Mythus people aren't
>condent in their own work, why support such a system

Eh? This is kinda strange logic. I'm not condent in the work of my peers
or myself, because few of us are game designers and most have no real
experience working with game design outside of our own games, so the game is
bad? I doubt TSR considers most of the fan-stu they have on the website or
vp site to be of publishable quality!

>Now, if others feel this way, and TSR goes ahead with a revival, TSR gets a
>pro or two to design it. The pros might decide to put their stamp on the
>system. If they do, they could end up redesigning major porôns of it.
>Would it then be the system you're used to? If not, then would you s^ll
>support it?

Depends on the changes. I'm not so in love with DJ that I'm blinded by it.
It does have room for alteraôn (as many have suggested on this list). If
the changes are, in my opinion, good ones, I'll go with them. If not, I'll
convert...at least we've got new, professionally developed ideas rolling
around to work o of.

>This is not meant to get people down, but I think realism is key here. I
>think a few people "Want to have their cake and eat it too". That's
>unrealis^c. There are too many barriers aec^ng it, and one has to deal
>with those realiês.

By giving up or giving in? Not in my character. *shrug*

>I think TSR //could// give us some things. They are unlikely to support
>Mythus as a product, but via the Internet, they have been working to support
>"dead products" by publishing unreleased manuscripts.
>
>We could ask for the Unhallowed Manuscript, incomplete and unedited as it
>is. That would give us something to really chew on. That would increase
>ac^vity here, and give us more basis to work on. It would also get Mike
>McCaulley's contribuôn OUT there to the public.
>
>We could ask TSR to allow--/if he is willing/--Gary to release his works in
>progress, such as Changeling, the unpublished MMM, etc. (Remember, some of
>this stu is s^ll /his/ property and he may wish to recycle ideas for
>another game system, so don't get hopes up. He has to make a living,
y'know)
>
>An alternate idea--and a very plausable one. Allow DJ to be supported by
>Novels wriken by EGG, much as FREELancers has been. I am asking for EGG
>for a few reasons. #1, there are at least 1.5 Setne stories wriken, so
>there's no wai^ng period. #2, it allows a lot of "Campaign Background" and
>examples to be introduced by Gary in the text, for use even if TSR doesn't
>support the system. #3, it shows a cooperaôn on the part of EGG and TSR,
>and would please fans of EGG and TSR fans. (Hey, we fans aren't going
>anyplace, no maker what TSR does. They might as well get some money o of
>us!) #4--it allows them to keep the trademark without changing the product
>completely.
>
>We could ask TSR to allow ocial recogniôn of Mythus events and RPGA
>tournaments. That could increase support without cos^ng them anything.

Good idea.

>Those, I think, are realis^c goals. Not a full revival, not a full
>restoraôn, but something that I believe is within reason for TSR to grant.
>Let's be realis^c here.

Yup, I'm one of those who think you're being cynical. Maybe I don't have a
strong grip on reality, or the gaming industry, but I've got to go with
logic, and it says that without a ght, nothing's going to happen. Yeah,
chances might be that I'll get pinned up on TSR's joke board and they'll
throw darts at my picture, but there is a chance, regardless of how small it
might be, that TSR will go for it. I don't believe that Sean is doing
nothing more than throwing us a bone, I don't consider TSR to be of one mind,
unalterable by any argument (We are the TSR, prepare to be assimilated into
our group mind...tee hee). If I fail, I fail. Big deal. At the very least,
we know for certain TSR's response, and don't have to conjecture on their
intent or thoughts.

Lucifer >:}
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 15:47:39 -0400
Subject: The Lazarus Project!

What follows is the original post for Project Lazarus, followed by a summary
of some replies and comments made primarily by its detractors. Enjoy!

From csc3rwm Mon Feb 12 22:15:00 1996
Subject: PLEASE READ! Support your favorite game system!
To: mythus-l@brownvm.brown.edu
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 22:14:55 EST
From: Prince O. Darkness <csc3rwm>
Cc: csc3rwm ( Prince O. Darkness )
X-Mailer: ELM-MIME [version 1.0 PL0]
Status: O

I've been discussing things with TSR's online
representa^ve, Sean Reynolds, recenly, concerning the possible
future of DJ. The main problem, according to him, is that DJ
doesn't seem to be a big seller, and the only way TSR would publish
DJ material is if it thought that it would end up having a great
deal of support. Therefore, I've decided, jaded as I am, to dive
head rst into a leker wri^ng campaign to TSR. I encourage every
man, woman and child reading this to send a snail mail leker
(e-mail isn't par^cularly eec^ve...it's a bit too easy; snail
mail shows some real dedicaôn) to TSR in support of DJ. If you're
married or have a boy/girlfriend who games, get them to send a
separate leker. Have everyone in your gaming group send a leker,
don't just sign a pe^ôn. Ask to run a Mythus game at your local
convenôns, and have people sign peiôns there. Send in ar^cles
to Dragon and Dungeon magazine. Most importantly, do not, repeat,
do not be indignant or insul^ng. I think most of us can agree that
what TSR did to Gygax, DJ, and GDW was reprehensible, but things
have died down, perhaps enough to let those guys over at TSR take a
good, long look at the gem they've got. Ran^ng and raving will
only harm our chances of ever geing DJ back in print. I strongly
encourage composing your own leker, but for those at a loss as to
what to say, I humbly propose the following:

---<Clip here>--
<your address>
<date>

Mr. James Ward
TSR, Inc.

Dear Mister Ward,


Sincerely,

<signature>

<name>

---<clip here>--
If you disagree with what I've wriken above, that's cool,
compose your own leker, post it to Mythus-L for others to use, and,
most importantly, send it in to TSR today! This may seem dras^c to
some, but it is simply the only way that we'll see Mythus in
popular publicaôn. Show them your loyalty, and they will see DJ
in a new light, and, if enough people send in their lekers, they
will respond!

Yours in hope,

Rodney W. Morris (Lucifer >:})

A few things to add that have been brought up since then:
A revision of Mythus, even one completely changed and altered, will hurt
none of us. If anything, it'll give us that grandfather eect, where we can
sit around a re and blab about how things were in the good old days. Even
if a TSR version of Mythus fails, we've reached far more people than we ever
could via this medium (electronic publishing, e-mail, etc.). I'm afraid I
don't quite understand the problems people have suppor^ng the idea. Maybe
the wounds from the TSR vs GDW bakle are s^ll too fresh, and some think
that this is somehow 'selling out' and, in their minds, will somehow damage
their own integrity (-5sp..sue me) and the integrity of the system. If DJ
gets the recogniôn, even the small recogniôn that the Amazing Engine got,
what can that do but improve our common love? Nothing changes. We go on
using DJ as we always have, wri^ng stu for it, and we get some more people
who come over and ask what the 'real' DJ is all about.
It is very doubul that Gygax would be involved, and some choose to use
that, in and of itself to promote hatred of anything TSR does with DJ. I
personally enjoy much of Gygax's work, though I think the wri^ng in DJ was
somewhat lacking in areas (more correctly, the edi^ng, but that's another
thing altogether...a few things needed beker explanaôn, methinks). He is
indubidubly (-5 sp again :P) the master of rpgs, but not the only good rpg
author in the market (not that, apparently, he's in the market any more).
Newton, however, has stated that he wouldn't necessarily refuse an oer
from TSR to work on DJ, and I give him cudos for that bit of clear-minded
thinking. Do I think DJ loses something without Gygax? Maybe, I don't have
a clue as to how much was his and how much wasn't. Do I think it loses
something without Gygax and/or Newton? Most probably, but there are other
authors out there who can write well, some of which might be newcomers (if
memory serves, Dave was). I've been accused of "stabbing <Gary and Dave> in
the back" because of my beliefs. Oh, well. I honestly don't see how it
would hurt them, even if neither were involved. Yeah, it'd be a real bummer
to see something you worked hard on making money for someone else, but I
think it's a greater tribute to their work to see to it that TSR recognizes
it as the gem it is, instead of wallowing in our own self-doubt and despair.
Buying the rights to Mythus is more of a pipe-dream than geing TSR to
publish it. We can't aord it, unless each member of the list can fork out
a good $400,000, give or take a few hundred grand. If we're to see DJ on the
shelf again, it'll be with TSR's blessing and support, somehow.
Some have said that TSR won't do it because they don't want two fantasy
games. Well, this is kinda strange logic. If Mythus reduces AD&D sales,
that means that Mythus sales are up. If Mythus does even a small bit of
business and AD&D sales aren't reduced, TSR's got new people involved in
their corner of the market. It's a win-win situaôn, basically. I think
the last thing TSR wants to do is make Mythus anything like AD&D. That would
be suicide, either for the system, or for AD&D (dependent upon how much of
the original rules they keep), and preky stupid, from a businessman's point
of view (one thing TSR's execs are NOT, is stupid). TSR would not wish to
publish a game system with the same avor as AD&D, just with dierent
rules. That's the main reason that I think, if TSR did decide to publish
Mythus, much of it (including those things which tread on the edge of their
Code of Ethics) would remain the same.
Some have said that Mythus will never be touched because of it's poor sales,
especially compared to TSR's typical prot. Well, I think that, primarily,
has to do with the quality of the material they've put out. High
adver^sing, low quality, sells for a likle while and then disappears (I
understand they were already planning for the Amazing Engine's downfall on
the date of its release, btw). Low adver^sing, high quality, given enough
^me, will catch on. High adver^sing
and high quality will cause a sensaôn. I _know_ Mythus is a high quality
game...most people I've met either don't know it exists or love it (those few
detractors of the game I've met haven't actually played it...except one...and
he even admiked that, though he didn't love it, he thought it was the best
system on the market).
The games TSR published that failed did so because of low quality control,
or just plain old low interest (the spy genre, for example, isn't a very big
one in gaming). I don't think Mythus would encounter either of those
problems. We already know the fantasy genre is the most popular genre of
adventure gaming out there, and it is a high quality system. Quite simply,
it's a no-lose situaôn for TSR.
It would take a lot of money to get going, but no more than any other series
of seings TSR puts out, and its my opinion that Mythus is much more of a
sure moneymaker than any of the campaign seings they've got out right now.
Basically, while TSR quality has had some serious problems over the last
decade, it's my opinion that that quality level is increasing. I do think
they could do a fantas^c job with Mythus, and I think it's got the quality
level to make it one of the hokest games on the market. I don't think TSR
would try to remove all of the rules that many others are sugges^ng they
would, because the most obvious group that TSR has lev untapped in the
fantasy genre is the older, more educated
group. It would be most logical to aim the game at that group of individuals
(historically impossible to please, btw). The ^me to show our support and
love for Mythus is here, in the now. If we don't jump at TSR's move to make
their games more complex and enjoyable for the mature gamer, Mythus will
truly be lost. I'm _not_ sa^sed with the status quo, and this is our
_only_ chance to change it. I do sincerely hope that those who have some
misgivings over suppor^ng a
TSR published Mythus will strongly reconsider their posiôn, and send in
their leker today! It can't happen without you.
As to principles, we do have a choice. To either stand up and show them the
gem they've got, or wallow in our self-pity and self-righteousness and
cynicism. Yes, the suit is over, TSR now owns the rights to Mythus and DJ,
and chances are highest that Gygax would never work with TSR, even for DJ
(not that the chances are high that we'll see any work he might be doing on
it right now, though...). That doesn't mean it is ^me to stop gh^ng for
the survival, no, for a quality life, for Mythus!
I truly hope you choose to join me in my quest to revive Mythus.
Construc^ve cri^cism is welcome, though I am wary or re-hashing old
arguments again. This was posted primarily for the benet of those who
thought the Project was dead, and for those who might not have seen it.

Lucifer >:}
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 16:24:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Edi^ng and Hybridizing


>Good then do it. Lets put together a "book" of sov cover binding of all
>substanâl rules correcôns(the prin^ng mistakes),opônal rules(for
>those who wish to use them),adventures,vocaôns,conversions,etc. These can
>be compiled,printed,bound and mailed out to everyone. Most of this material
>will be original and the material that is not will only be printed for
>discussion(correcôn) purposes,thus no copyright violaôns will occur. We
>can all chip in and help with the prin^ng cost(with receipts for
>everything) or it can be posted in a neat E-mail package but nothing will be
>charged for peoples ^me etc. and no prot will occur(to prot would
>violate a stagnant prot legal maker). This book is then released(with
>consent of the authors) into public domain. As I said I will serve as editor
>if no one else wishes to(there are certainly those with more experience than
>I). NOW if anyone knows if this can or cannot be done legaly PLEASE post.

I'm certain others will have jumped on this before I get the chance, but
here's my change anyways.

This is very, very, very illegal. What you are proposing is, essenâlly,
publishing of deriva^ve work (no, publishing doesn't mean that money has to
change hands), which is maybe one step behind actually copying or scanning
the material and sending it out or puing it up on a web site. As has been
stated before, copyrigh^ng doesn't mean that just the individual sequence of
words on a page are protected, but the meaning of that sequence of words is
protected as well. In this case, it means that anything you publish using
rules from Mythus in any fashion is illegal, and TSR has the grounds and the
means to prosecute.

Lucifer >:}
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 16:23:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Lazerus Etc.


>Instead of trying to leverage TSR for Material for this ne system, why not
>as others suggest just write our own suppliments and distribute them on the
>Internet -FREE- of charge for *PERSONAL* use only. That way any implied
>copywrite violaôns are covered (mostly) by the Fair-Use Clause of the
>Federal Copywrite laws in that we are a non-prot organizaôn publishing
>material for our own personal use. If we are not duplica^ng or directly
>quo^ng rules/etc from the copywriken material but are oering "house
>rules" for the product there is likle that TSR can do. For years as long as
>gamers stayed clear of copying text/ideas/tables/etc from TSR copywriken
>material TSR has allowed gamers to publish "house rules" and "rules
variants"
>for their game systems as long as you remember to put "Dangerous Journeys,
>Mythus Copywrite TSR Inc 1996". We just have to be VERY clear that the
>rules/ideas we are pos^ng are "house rules or rules variants" to the
system,
>and not to quote material from the books, MMM, or wherever. We may even try
>as an organizaôn to obtain permission from TSR to use secôns/terms/etc
>from the system in a non-prot way.

Well, this isn't a bad idea, if the quality of material on the net improved,
and there's really no reason that it should. I know that I, personally, have
had great diculty returning to Abyss aver DJ went under (I was originally
planning on sending it in to see if I could get it published), and, though I
have done a few small things since then, there is likle incen^ve for me to
work on a project for free (especially when I could be expending my energy
working on other projects to send in to other game companies).

I'm not about to state unequivocably that everything published on the net is
substandard. I've seen a great many things that are high quality ar^cles
and addendums for Mythus, that are well thought out and carefully created.
However, these ar^cles are few and far between, and come from a very select
few of our collec^ve number. But simple fact of the maker is that it's
extremely dicult to come up with original and good material without either
WAY too much ^me on your hands or being paid for your eorts (or the
potenâl of being paid). I also don't par^cularly like the idea of Mythus
being conned to the internet. There are a lot of gamers out there who've
never heard of Mythus or DJ, and I think the game is too good to keep it
buried here on our limited world of the internet.

Well, everything else that needed to be said was stated by someone else
(who've post I've deleted...the big write-up on 'Fair Use'). That's my
input.

Lucifer >:}
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 16:25:36 -0400
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960612021654.006d8a54@pop.âc.net>

John Troy's:

> We could ask TSR to allow ocial recogniôn of Mythus events and RPGA
> tournaments. That could increase support without cos^ng them anything.
>
> Those, I think, are realis^c goals. Not a full revival, not a full
> restoraôn, but something that I believe is within reason for TSR to grant.
> Let's be realis^c here.

Well, it's depressing. I think John has a point, albeit not one seemingly
lled with youthful exuberance... :)

A wise strategy then, would be to start slowly and work ourselves up from
there. Number one thing in my book then: change the reputaôn. I have
done so with a small number of people in the Bualo area (since I don't
know all that many, but they've all been recep^ve aver some work...).
It can certainly happen. Cons, demos and shit like that would do it I
think...

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 16:31:25 -0400
In-Reply-To: <199606120350.XAA12705@darius.cris.com>

Michael
I like the idea. Damn, organizaôn. Someone stop us! :)

How would the "Mythus Collecôn" be organized?

Oh, as for legality, try and stop me from discussing rules and stu with
my friends, who happen to be on the Net.

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 16:39:44 -0400

>> Copyright Laws...
>> Notwithstanding the provisions of secôns 106 and 106A, the fair use of a
>> copyrighted work, including such use by reproducôn in copies or

>> honorecords or by any other means specied by that secôn, for purposes
>> such as cri^cism, comment, news repor^ng, teaching (including mul^ple
>> copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an
infringement
>> of copyright.
>...
>> Note the clause "for purposes such as cri^cism, comment, news repor^ng,
>> teaching (including mul^ple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or
>> research". In short, non-commercial EDUCATIONAL purposes, not
RECREATIONAL
>> or ENTERTAINMENT. (Despite the prolicaôn of .edu domains here, I
doubt
>> you're taking up RPG101 at the various colleges). =20
>
>Nothing in the quote you've given bars RECREATIONAL or ENTERTAINMENT
>purposes.
>
>Cri^cism or comment need not be done for educaônal purposes:
>we cri^cise or comment on aspects of the ADND game all the ^me
>on ADND-L but for many of us that is RECREATION, not EDUCATION.
>
>The quote includes some EDUCATION related items (teaching, scholarship,
>research) but does not seem to require the purpose for which a copy
>is made to be EDUCATION.
>
>Note the use of the phrase "such as" which gives each item in the
>list equal weight.
>
>I'm not sure I follow your logic here: could you please clarify how you
>reach your conclusion?

I'll take a gander at it. Basically, it states what is not an infringement
on copyright law. Since recreaônal or entertainment purposes are not
included in that list of what is not an infringement, it is an infringement.
The original poster focused on educaôn because that is most likely what
others would akach themselves to in the hope that that would protect them.
The same could be said for commentary or cri^cism or news repor^ng...we're
not doing any of that here, we are crea^ng for recraônal or entertainment
purposes, which is not permiked under this quote of the law (if there's
another quote that does that I'm unaware of, please clarify).

That's my guess at it, at least.

Lucifer >:}
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 17:29:04 -0400

At 02:13 AM 6/12/96 -0400, you wrote:
>I've got Cyborg Commando, too. I guess great minds DO think alike!

:)

>
>That brings up an interes^ng point. If memory serves--and it seems the
>service is going downhill these days ;-) --wasn' t TSR in a big wrangle with
>New Inniês over some of their products like "The Convert"? If I recall,
>some changes had to be made in it before it could be released.

I am not familiar with this par^cular situaôn.

Did TSR just
>get more vitupera^ve between that lawsuit and the one they led over
>Mythus, or were they on shakier legal ground in the rst instance?

I believe TSR probably became more abusive with the MYTHUS lawsuit because
they were this ^me on such "shaky" ground. Just as in the wild animals with
no defense make themselves sound and look the most ferocious(example the
black emperor scorpion,the largest and least deadly),TSR had to be abusive
to make it seem like they had a claim. To sue a company for publishing a
game that violates your copyright on a fantasy game when the oending game
was rst wriken in a horror genre then converted to fantasy is preky
lame(legally speaking). According to Gygax TSR claims were absurd enough to
accuse the K/S area rst aid of being a rip o of the AD&D spell heal
minor wounds. This suit was a personal vendeka against Gary Gygax and
GDW(for daring to suppport and publish a enemy of TSR) and had no merit. TSR
managed to create a legal situaôn where all GDW could aord to do is
sekle. No^ce no TSR suit has been led against White Wolf which publishes
a game in their story telling system called "Changeling" a trademark name,I
think,TSR acquired in the seklement with GDW.
No lawsuits for copyright infringements have been led against any other
fantasy genre gaming systems,some of which use stats far closer to AD&D than
MYTHUS ever did.

> Necropolis was originally slated to be released as a New Inniês Product
>before that enterprise folded. I remember seeing the artwork for it at the
>last GenCon I ever went to, when I got Gary to autograph something.

Yes it was also adver^sed in the back of one of his Gord the Rouge novels.
I also have acquired his autograph on several items in my collecôn. (more
proof that great minds do indeed think alike)

I will keep the list posted as to how the conversion is going. Let me know
if you(or anyone on the list) have any ideas or suggesôns about the
conversion.
>
>Don

Michael John Weaver
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 18:48:41 -0400

At 04:24 PM 6/12/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>Good then do it. Lets put together a "book" of sov cover binding of all
>>substanâl rules correcôns(the prin^ng mistakes),opônal rules(for
>>those who wish to use them),adventures,vocaôns,conversions,etc. These can
>>be compiled,printed,bound and mailed out to everyone. Most of this material
>>will be original and the material that is not will only be printed for
>>discussion(correcôn) purposes,thus no copyright violaôns will occur. We
>>can all chip in and help with the prin^ng cost(with receipts for
>>everything) or it can be posted in a neat E-mail package but nothing will be
>>charged for peoples ^me etc. and no prot will occur(to prot would
>>violate a stagnant prot legal maker). This book is then released(with
>>consent of the authors) into public domain. As I said I will serve as editor
>>if no one else wishes to(there are certainly those with more experience than
>>I). NOW if anyone knows if this can or cannot be done legaly PLEASE post.
>
>I'm certain others will have jumped on this before I get the chance, but
>here's my change anyways.
>
>This is very, very, very illegal. What you are proposing is, essenâlly,
>publishing of deriva^ve work (no, publishing doesn't mean that money has to
>change hands), which is maybe one step behind actually copying or scanning
>the material and sending it out or puing it up on a web site. As has been
>stated before, copyrigh^ng doesn't mean that just the individual sequence of
>words on a page are protected, but the meaning of that sequence of words is
>protected as well. In this case, it means that anything you publish using
>rules from Mythus in any fashion is illegal, and TSR has the grounds and the
>means to prosecute.
>
>Lucifer,

Copyright protects the par^cular expression of an idea,not the idea. So the
meaning of a sequence of words are NOT protected. If a writer prints a
sequence of words that means or proves for instance that there is a God(just
an example) I am in no way restricted to never wri^ng about whether or not
there is or is not a God.
>
I do not believe that you are correct on this point. For example if I create
a vocaôn that does not now exist I have created a unique expression of an
idea and that work is therefore automa^cally copyrighted to me its creator.
The fact that I use MYTHUS akributes and format is not neccessarily a
copyright violaôn. Quesôn: if no prot is being made what would be
TSR's inducement to le suit. NOTE: authors of this material should include
at the end a footnote sta^ng that this work is based on MYTHUS FRPG and
that MYTHUS is a registered trademark of TSR,Inc.. Also be aware that under
the law the only remedy TSR could seek is to prohibit further
publishing,they could not seek damges as that the stagnant prot doctrine
would not be violated because noone beneked from the work. TSR has the
means but not the grounds(realizing of course our country tolerates
frivilous lawsuits TSR vs. GDW for example) and certainly no inducement to sue.
Reference: This comes from checking with a 15 years of experience paralegal
that will conrm this for me with a intellectual property specializaôn
akorney. This vericaôn will be next week.

With this in mind I encourage moving forward with this project.

Sincerely,
Michael John Weaver
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 19:02:56 -0400


>Those, I think, are realis^c goals. Not a full revival, not a full
>restoraôn, but something that I believe is within reason for TSR to grant.
>Let's be realis^c here.

Here, here! Well said John.

Jason
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 20:05:08 -0400

Lucier, I'm not trying to say "don't ght". Rather I'm saying be
realis^c about your goals, strategy and tac^cs.

Of course if you don't try you'll never succeede. However, there are
precedents, histories, etc that should be taken into account when bakling
anything. Don't be blinded by the devoôn to the game system and your
wishes to the various factors aec^ng this game.

I think I've made a good point of the limitaôns aec^ng the grandiose
plans you propose. Compromise is the key, I believe, to making any TSR
recogniôn of Mythus successful. I think the goals I have proposed are
more plausable and have the more chance of success.

It's kind of like sekling a peace treaty--it will be somewhere in the
middle of "No Game Support" and "Full Game Support".

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 20:05:09 -0400

>>Cri^cism or comment need not be done for educaônal purposes:
>>we cri^cise or comment on aspects of the ADND game all the ^me
>>on ADND-L but for many of us that is RECREATION, not EDUCATION.
>>
>>The quote includes some EDUCATION related items (teaching, scholarship,
>>research) but does not seem to require the purpose for which a copy
>>is made to be EDUCATION.
>>
>>Note the use of the phrase "such as" which gives each item in the
>>list equal weight.
>>
>>I'm not sure I follow your logic here: could you please clarify how you
>>reach your conclusion?
>
>I'll take a gander at it. Basically, it states what is not an infringement
>on copyright law. Since recreaônal or entertainment purposes are not
>included in that list of what is not an infringement, it is an infringement.
> The original poster focused on educaôn because that is most likely what
>others would akach themselves to in the hope that that would protect them.
> The same could be said for commentary or cri^cism or news repor^ng...we're
>not doing any of that here, we are crea^ng for recraônal or entertainment
>purposes, which is not permiked under this quote of the law (if there's
>another quote that does that I'm unaware of, please clarify).
>

Okay--perhaps Educaôn is not the best term.

Bascially, from what I see above, its more or less a ne line between
providing informaôn on something and providing recreaônal entertainment.
This isn't a black & white line. It's basically a bakle between crea^ve
control of ideas against the First Amendment. And keep in mind the other
three clauses.

For instance, the various unauthorized guides to SF series don't interfere.
A web page, for instance, that provides an episode guide to Babylon 5, is
allowable since it is making commentary, cri^cism, and analysis of a
primary product. It thus falls under the category of providing informaôn.
There are restricôns, of course. Simply put, a synopsis of an episode is
ne--provided its not too long or directly reproducing a script.
Otherwise, TV Guide could be a violator!

However, if I created a Game System (using GURPS or FUDGE) for B5, that
/would/ be a violaôn, since it actually creates côn and is not trying
to provide informaôn. An RPG should be consider "Ficôn". (Hey,
Vampire's listed as a "Book" according to Hollywood!) Such directly
competes with a potenâl market, and such is not providing "Commentary",
"News Repor^ng", etc. Such a work must be licensed/authorized, etc.

Basically, Fair Use is provided to prevent control from aec^ng Free
Speech. To wit...

If a college professor wanted to do an History of RPGs course, he could
conceivably photocopy certain secôns of games...let's say he wanted to
show the dice "Bell Curve" table from the old DMG to show what factors
played in design, and made a handout of those two pages to students. This
is educaônal, and thus valid.

If I wanted to review a TSR game, I could quote something from the rules I
felt was odd. TSR would likely have no right to stop me--let's say I gave
nega^ve reviews a lot and they wanted to prevent bad press. Preven^ng
reviews via copyright claim could violate 1st Amendment rights.

One could provide a photo of a game, for review or catalog purposes.

But one can't directly "use" that informaôn, deriva^ve works, or anything
that would cause a conict of crea^ve control.

In short, its a ne line, but one that's no^cable. Basically, one can't
use Copyright to prevent subject maker from being discussed, but to protect
one's rights.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 20:39:16 -0400

At 04:31 PM 6/12/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Michael>
>I like the idea. Damn, organizaôn. Someone stop us! :)

Thank you.
>
>How would the "Mythus Collecôn" be organized?

Well I hope others will add their opinions and ideas and those will help
shape the direcôn the collecôn takes. However,as I currently envision
it,it would be divided into several secôns(those posted or mailed when the
collecôn was complete) and yes people could request parts before it was
all done,but those could change so they would s^ll want the complete nal
product.

1. Correcôns- This would include such things as deciding which descripôn
in MYTHUS MAGICK was correct the chart or the text(and not always one or the
other) and the brilliant reason and logic behind why. This secôn would not
include expansions just correcôns to what is wriken.

2. Clearicaôns: This secôn would include such things as Dwarves or
Phaeree creatures. For instance the HP creaôn secôn under nonhuman
personas says nothing about them being unable to touch or use Iron,yet
pg.209 of Epic of Aerth states this restricôn on creatures from
Phaeree(which includes all non-human personas). Do HP's have immunity from
this restricôn, if so why?

3. Vocaôns:the new ones
4. Adventures
5. Complete conversions to other games that can be used in the absence of
UNHALLOWED and CHANGELING. Such as CYBORG COMMANDO :)
6. Opônal rules such modied combat,new K/S areas,ways to handle
armor,etc.(this might be divided into more areas)
7. MAGICK,new items(magickal), new cas^ngs.

This is just my iniâl idea,I invite others to contribute and add areas etc.
>
>Oh, as for legality, try and stop me from discussing rules and stu with
>my friends, who happen to be on the Net.

Hey just a friendly discussion among friends.
>
>Jesse
>

>
>Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 19:59:14 -0400

At 04:25 PM 6/12/96 -0400, you wrote:
>John Troy's:
>
>> We could ask TSR to allow ocial recogniôn of Mythus events and RPGA
>> tournaments. That could increase support without cos^ng them anything.
>>
>> Those, I think, are realis^c goals. Not a full revival, not a full
>> restoraôn, but something that I believe is within reason for TSR to grant.
>> Let's be realis^c here.
>
>Well, it's depressing. I think John has a point, albeit not one seemingly
>lled with youthful exuberance... :)
>
>A wise strategy then, would be to start slowly and work ourselves up from
>there. Number one thing in my book then: change the reputaôn. I have
>done so with a small number of people in the Bualo area (since I don't
>know all that many, but they've all been recep^ve aver some work...).
>It can certainly happen. Cons, demos and shit like that would do it I
>think...
>
>Jesse
>
>
>In response to this,here are my feelings about the subject.

I believe that we as players of MYTHUS should indeed write lekers to TSR
reques^ng that TSR release the already nished but unpublished UNHALLOWED
genre for DANGEROUS JOURNEYS. I would also include CHANGELING if TSR
acquired the rights for this and it is anywhere near nished(does anyone
know?). If TSR would do this it would have the eect of comple^ng the
DANGEROUS JOURNEYS line as it was meant to be. I also discourage the idea of
TSR reviving the game and having the opportunity to ruin it.

I do not believe that it is neccessary to have TSR recognize "ocial"
MYTHUS events at their tournaments but it certainly would do no harm to
request such. However, I believe a beker strategy would be to write to CON

organizers(oven not TSR) and request that MYTHUS games be included and
perhaps volunteer to be a JM at the CON next year(they are always looking to
expand games oered and akendance). This does not require TSR's
endorsement in any way. For the CONS that are going on this year(to late to
have MYTHUS included) akend those that you can with your MYTHUS material
and set up at a table in one of the free gaming rooms(usually provided) and
start running MYTHUS adventures.NOTE: This should be one of the rst online
projects,wri^ng original adventures for MYTHUS that can be used at convenôns.

The nal thing I would encourage regarding TSR's involvement in MYTHUS is
this. I would write lekers to DUNGEON magazine reques^ng that MYTHUS
adventures be included. The editor is rumored to be considering expanding
the games that the magazine covers anyway. This would allow naônwide
support of MYTHUS and increased magazine sales for TSR.

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 22:04:21 -0400

>Copyright protects the par^cular expression of an idea,not the idea. So the
>meaning of a sequence of words are NOT protected. If a writer prints a
>sequence of words that means or proves for instance that there is a God(just
>an example) I am in no way restricted to never wri^ng about whether or not
>there is or is not a God.

That's a bit dierent than what we're talking about here. The discussion of
a subject isn't protected against anyway, but I see what point you're trying
to make. The point I'm trying to make is that the rules _are_ protected, so
anything you publish with a PMCap, PMPow and PMSpd scores that add up to a PM
score that adds up to a P TRAIT is a violaôn of copyright. Anything rules
you write that are based on Mythus rules so closely as to be addiôns to
those rules, you are viola^ng a copyright. It doesn't maker if some of the
material is original, if you use Mythus descriptors and rules to describe
your creaôn, it's no longer original.

>I do not believe that you are correct on this point. For example if I create
>a vocaôn that does not now exist I have created a unique expression of an
>idea and that work is therefore automa^cally copyrighted to me its creator.
>The fact that I use MYTHUS akributes and format is not neccessarily a
>copyright violaôn. Quesôn: if no prot is being made what would be
>TSR's inducement to le suit. NOTE: authors of this material should include
>at the end a footnote sta^ng that this work is based on MYTHUS FRPG and
>that MYTHUS is a registered trademark of TSR,Inc.. Also be aware that under
>the law the only remedy TSR could seek is to prohibit further
>publishing,they could not seek damges as that the stagnant prot doctrine
>would not be violated because noone beneked from the work. TSR has the
>means but not the grounds(realizing of course our country tolerates
>frivilous lawsuits TSR vs. GDW for example) and certainly no inducement to
>sue.
>Reference: This comes from checking with a 15 years of experience paralegal
>that will conrm this for me with a intellectual property specializaôn
>akorney. This vericaôn will be next week.
>
>With this in mind I encourage moving forward with this project.

Well, if I am wrong, I'd love to see the proof. I've had a few professors
who need to get a bit of learning concerning plagurism. :)

You do understand, by the way, that whether you gain money from something or
not is irrelevant to its illegality. Publishing doesn't necessarily mean
that others pay for what you've done. One can't, for example, copy the
en^re Mythus rulebook and give it out to anyone you want to (legally
speaking, of course). It also goes to follow that no one can publish
deriva^ve work based on copyrighted material, legally (if this were so, we'd
most likely be seeing a great deal more deriva^ve works given out for free
based on Star Trek, Star Wars, or whatever seems to be popular at the
^me...these sorts of things are currently being cracked down on on the net,
and there is a legal basis to do such). One interes^ng fact, though. Since
it is illegal, and you don't own the copyright of the material you're
publishing, you cannot sue if they decided to liv your material word for
word and publish it for money (well, you can, but all things being equal, you
won't win). They don't need to ask, they don't need to pay, they don't even
need to list you as the author, or even as a contributor. This is one of the
biggest things keeping me away from publishing much on the net. There are
many publishers (I know of many, many outside the gaming community), which
will refuse to publish any work that has been placed on the internet, as
well, because of the legal ramicaôns of that sort of thing.

Anyways, I happen to agree with the American copyright laws, for the
most part, and I don't think it fair for people to latch onto something
someone else wrote and try to make a name for themselves by publishing
deriva^ve work. It's not that dicult to make something generic, and I'm
somewhat uncertain why people are so intent on not making generic material.
Anyways, that's my couple o' copper. If I've misremembered,
misinterpreted, or misrepresented, please correct me...and show me to a book
or two that I can look things up myself (page number's would be nice, as
well).

Lucifer >:}
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 22:25:24 -0700

In-Reply-To: <960612220421_413071515@emout15.mail.aol.com> from "Prince O.
Darkness" at Jun 12, 96 10:04:21 pm

I'll add my 2 1/2 cents on this copyright discussion.

As I understand it (from following discussions about this subject on
other newsgroups), game rules fall into a grey area of copyright law.
There is disagreement whether only the _form_ of the rules is
protected (such as the exact format of the Cas^ng Diculty DR
table) or if the concept behind it is protected as well (the
relaônship of STEEP to the DR required to use a cas^ng of a certain
grade).

Whatever may be the truth here, TSR has taken...well...an aggressive
stand on the issue. This has caused no end of debate on the various
FRP newsgroups, and I've seen Sean Reynolds caught in the crossre on
a number of occasions. I'm unaware if any substanâl change has
occurred in this policy since last I checked.

(To avoid unwarranted barbs sent Sean's way, he has been working
with various gamers on coming to an understanding with TSR's legal
department. Not with much success that I've seen, but the eort
was there.)

So, as far as the company that holds the rights to Mythus is concerned,
publishing a "2nd ediôn Mythus" -- whether for free or not -- would
be considered a violaôn of copyright law. You could try to go to
court on the issue, and might very well win. However, you'd need the
nancial backing necessary to fund a legal defense.

Steven
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 01:53:02 -0400

I have Good King Despot, Aeshiba, The Convert, and the three C.C. modules. I
was wai^ng for the next C.C. game when Tri-Gee went underground.

My boyfriend s^ll likes to play D&D, but I am trying to get him to try
Mythus. He thinks it is stupid to try and play a game that is out of print,
but I pointed out that a good book which goes out of print is s^ll a good
book, no maker why it's not available.

Anyway, if you have a chance to do some work on the C.C> Mythus stu, I'd be
happy to see it.

Thanks,

Lisa
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 10:45:51 -0400

At 10:04 PM 6/12/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>Copyright protects the par^cular expression of an idea,not the idea. So the
>>meaning of a sequence of words are NOT protected. If a writer prints a
>>sequence of words that means or proves for instance that there is a God(just
>>an example) I am in no way restricted to never wri^ng about whether or not
>>there is or is not a God.
>
>That's a bit dierent than what we're talking about here. The discussion of
>a subject isn't protected against anyway, but I see what point you're trying
>to make. The point I'm trying to make is that the rules _are_ protected, so
>anything you publish with a PMCap, PMPow and PMSpd scores that add up to a PM
>score that adds up to a P TRAIT is a violaôn of copyright.

(some deleted by accident)

>you write that are based on Mythus rules so closely as to be addiôns to
>those rules, you are viola^ng a copyright. It doesn't maker if some of the
>material is original, if you use Mythus descriptors and rules to describe
>your creaôn, it's no longer original.
>
>>I do not believe that you are correct on this point. For example if I create
>>a vocaôn that does not now exist I have created a unique expression of an
>>idea and that work is therefore automa^cally copyrighted to me its creator.
>>The fact that I use MYTHUS akributes and format is not neccessarily a
>>copyright violaôn. Quesôn: if no prot is being made what would be
>>TSR's inducement to le suit. NOTE: authors of this material should include
>>at the end a footnote sta^ng that this work is based on MYTHUS FRPG and
>>that MYTHUS is a registered trademark of TSR,Inc.. Also be aware that under
>>the law the only remedy TSR could seek is to prohibit further
>>publishing,they could not seek damges as that the stagnant prot doctrine
>>would not be violated because noone beneked from the work. TSR has the
>>means but not the grounds(realizing of course our country tolerates
>>frivilous lawsuits TSR vs. GDW for example) and certainly no inducement to
>>sue.
>>Reference: This comes from checking with a 15 years of experience paralegal
>>that will conrm this for me with a intellectual property specializaôn
>>akorney. This vericaôn will be next week.
>>
>>With this in mind I encourage moving forward with this project.
>
>Well, if I am wrong, I'd love to see the proof. I've had a few professors
>who need to get a bit of learning concerning plagurism. :)
>
>You do understand, by the way, that whether you gain money from something or
>not is irrelevant to its illegality.

It is however relevant to the remedy that a copyright holder may seek.

Publishing doesn't necessarily mean
>that others pay for what you've done. One can't, for example, copy the
>en^re Mythus rulebook and give it out to anyone you want to (legally
>speaking, of course).

But in reality(prac^ce) people do this everyday with video tapes and books
and companies due not sue because the legal cost would be wasted as that the
only remedy they could seek was consca^ng the material,monetary damages
would not be awarded because no one beneked from the material a further
point for defense in this situaôn would be that sales were not hurt
because the material is not oered for sale by the copyright holder
par^culary the new works that will have been created.

It also goes to follow that no one can publish
>deriva^ve work based on copyrighted material, legally (if this were so, we'd
>most likely be seeing a great deal more deriva^ve works given out for free
>based on Star Trek, Star Wars, or whatever seems to be popular at the
>^me...these sorts of things are currently being cracked down on on the net,
>and there is a legal basis to do such).

Interes^ngly enough your stated crack down is occuring by way of more
copyright suits being led over Internet material but no clear cut
precedence has been set(courts s^ll rule on individual case basis) and the
copyright/internet issue has not yet been addressed in the Supreme Court.

One interes^ng fact, though. Since
>it is illegal, and you don't own the copyright of the material you're
>publishing

I believe this would be in error,as I stated when crea^ng a unique
expression of an idea it is copyrighted and illegality would have to be
proven in court.

, you cannot sue if they decided to liv your material word for
>word and publish it for money (well, you can, but all things being equal, you
>won't win).

Oh, well I'm not real concerned about TSR using and publishing my MYTHUS
material word for word without me listed as contributor. TSR given a choice
will never publish anything that Gary GYgax has anything to do with and I'm
placing my material in public domain so TSR and any one else is welcome to it.

They don't need to ask, they don't need to pay, they don't even
>need to list you as the author, or even as a contributor. This is one of the
>biggest things keeping me away from publishing much on the net. There are
>many publishers (I know of many, many outside the gaming community), which
>will refuse to publish any work that has been placed on the internet, as
>well, because of the legal ramicaôns of that sort of thing.

Yes but my intenôn is not recoginiôn(except perhaps by those brilliant
people here on the list) I intend to write in order to help the MYTHUS game
grow and all my work will be placed by me it author(and possible copyright
holder) into public domain as that prot is not my intenôn.
>
> Anyways, I happen to agree with the American copyright laws, for the
>most part, and I don't think it fair for people to latch onto something
>someone else wrote and try to make a name for themselves by publishing
>deriva^ve work. It's not that dicult to make something generic, and I'm
>somewhat uncertain why people are so intent on not making generic material.
> Anyways, that's my couple o' copper. If I've misremembered,
>misinterpreted, or misrepresented, please correct me...and show me to a book
>or two that I can look things up myself (page number's would be nice, as
>well).
>
> Lucifer >:}

THE COPYRIGHT HANDBOOK:How to Protect and Use Wriken Works by Akorney
Stephen Fishman. Unfortunately while this is a good reference book even it
points out that copyright laws are not black&white. The party that feels it
is being violated must go to court to seek a remedy.

Michael
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 11:15:23 -0400

At 10:25 PM 6/12/96 -0700, you wrote:
> I'll add my 2 1/2 cents on this copyright discussion.
>
> As I understand it (from following discussions about this subject on
>other newsgroups), game rules fall into a grey area of copyright law.
>There is disagreement whether only the _form_ of the rules is
>protected (such as the exact format of the Cas^ng Diculty DR
>table) or if the concept behind it is protected as well (the
>relaônship of STEEP to the DR required to use a cas^ng of a certain
>grade).

This is mostly correct as I understand it,however I am obtaining counsel of
a copyright akorney.
>
> Whatever may be the truth here, TSR has taken...well...an aggressive
>stand on the issue.

Actually what TSR has done is aggressively sue people dedica^ng their vast
resources to crea^ng a legal bakle that other companies can't aord and
force them to sekle out of court,largely because TSR would have a VERY
dicult ^me proving any allegaôns over copyright they have ever brought
to court. However,a major point here is that this is usually done to protect
themselves nancialy(and of course spite against Gary Gygax). When no
monetary remedy or acquisôn of material is invloved TSR has no inducement
to sue. My material is being placed in public domain. Now theres a good suit
TSR claims all material in public domain is realy their copyrighted
property. So if TSR wishes to use my creaôns they are welcome to them as
is any one else.

This has caused no end of debate on the various
>FRP newsgroups, and I've seen Sean Reynolds caught in the crossre on
>a number of occasions.

TSR,Inc. must pay realy well for him to put up with the abuse I've seen him
take online. I for one would be knocking down Wizards of The Coast (or some
other companies) door for a job just to get away from having to constantly
defend TSR(oh wel maybe it thrills him).

I'm unaware if any substanâl change has
>occurred in this policy since last I checked.
>
> (To avoid unwarranted barbs sent Sean's way, he has been working
>with various gamers on coming to an understanding with TSR's legal
>department. Not with much success that I've seen, but the eort
>was there.)

Unfortunately the owners(stockholders) at TSR is what gives the comapny a
bad reputaôn some of the employees are fair minded,crea^ve,talented,nice
people to bad the best employment they could get was TSR. The company image
won't change un^l the owners do.
>
> So, as far as the company that holds the rights to Mythus is concerned,
>publishing a "2nd ediôn Mythus" -- whether for free or not -- would
>be considered a violaôn of copyright law. You could try to go to
>court on the issue, and might very well win.

Actually TSR would be responsible for ling a lawsuit in order to enforce
their copyright you would just have to respond. I'm not by the way crea^ng
a second ediôn simply sharing with interested people ideas and
opinions(conversaôn) correcôns that edi^ng missed and clearicaôn on
rules lev unclear(I have to quote them to correct them) and suggesôns for
expansions to the game. None of the work is reprsented as ocial in any way.

However, you'd need the
>nancial backing necessary to fund a legal defense.

Unless of course you simply agreed to stop publishing material which is the
only remedy TSR would be en^tled to. I believe the GDW suit was unfortunate
because I believe that Gygax had the means to ght,I believe that at GDW's
request he sekled so that GDW could receive the payment from TSR for DJ as
that they were in dire nancial troubles at the ^me.
>
>
>Steven

Thanks for your input.

Good Gaming,
Michael
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 11:37:34 -0400
Subject: Aesheba:A Greek Africa

This is a Fantasy Master seing published by New Inniês(now defunct).
Someone responded to my post seeking this(I have one now thanks) so I told
him I would post on the list and see if anybody else was interested. So if
you are E-mail him directly at babayaga@SOUTHWIND.NET

Thanks,
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 15:47:19 -0400
Subject: A URL for Copyright informaôn

Hi all.

Since there's been so much discussion here regarding Copyright, etc., I
think it would be best to provide a URL poin^ng to a very good paper from
the US Government. It goes into this subject maker in a lot of detail.

hkp://www.uspto.gov/text/pto/nii/ipwg.html
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)

johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:09:09 +0200

Dear Steve,
At 22:25 12-06-96 -0700, you wrote:
> I'll add my 2 1/2 cents on this copyright discussion.
>
> As I understand it (from following discussions about this subject on
>other newsgroups), game rules fall into a grey area of copyright law.
[]
>
> So, as far as the company that holds the rights to Mythus is concerned,
>publishing a "2nd ediôn Mythus" -- whether for free or not -- would
>be considered a violaôn of copyright law. You could try to go to
>court on the issue, and might very well win. However, you'd need the
>nancial backing necessary to fund a legal defense.
>
>Steven

OK, I don't know anything about US law (apart from L.A. Law ;-) ), but I've
got a wacky idea on the topic of nancial backing: is there no free "pro
deo" counseling for those who can't aord at pay for a lawyer?

I remember when I was a student (therefore "poor" enough), I was eligible
for a pro deo lawyer when my landlord threatened not to refund my
downpayments. This way I could have fought un^l High Court for free
(something I would not be able to do know that I have a resonable well payed
job). They repayed me because a lawyer would have cost _them_ much more than
repaying my my downpayments.

If a similar situaôn exists in the US, are there any volunteers that
dislike TSR enough to ê TSR's social parasites up for a while? Excuse me,
lawyers I meant to say, just a subconcious slip of my ngers. ;)
If TSR had enough money to waste on lawyers to destroy GDW, how would they
fare if this tac^c was reversed on them? Tie up their nances in useless
bakles against people who can bakle for free?
Maybe sue TSR of some blasfemous (trivial) religious detail in one if their
books or games that is outlawed in one of the Bible Belt states? Satanism,
maybe? Hopefully, TSR would then sekle out of court in return for
republishing the complete and unaltered Dangerous Journeys system.

Understand me well, I don't have a grudge against the _company_ TSR, only
against lawyers in general and some of the decisions TSR made regarding Mythus.

These are the daydreams of a Mythus addict who's next game session is at
least 8 weeks into the future.
Just lling bandwith and allevia^ng my aggression because I learned today
that I have to raise the prices for the Clinical Diagnos^cs and the market
will not bear that. :(

Hah, I already feel much beker.

Harold Stringer
biopharm@xs4all.nl
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 17:13:48 -0400

Michael
>TSR,Inc. must pay realy well for him to put up with the abuse I've seen him
>take online. I for one would be knocking down Wizards of The Coast (or some
>other companies) door for a job just to get away from having to constantly
>defend TSR(oh wel maybe it thrills him).

Naw, I just know that most people on the net wouldn't have the spine to
say it to my face if they met me, and those few that remain aren't really
direc^ng their anger at me, but at TSR, so it doesn't bother me.

>some of the employees are fair minded,crea^ve,talented,nice
>people

And some of us are also incredibly good looking, too.

Shaven-headed guys .... chicks dig it!

(sorry, that's how I talk .. "[insert stupid comment] ... chicks
dig it!")

- Sean
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 17:25:09 -0400
Subject: Sean is a fool (Re: Edi^ng and Hybridizing)

Sorry, in a t of stupidity, I sent to the whole list what was
intended as a joking reply to one member of the list.

My apologies.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 18:17:42 -0400
Subject: Sean Inhetep

Hey, is it just me, or would Sean make a great Setne Inhetep? :-)

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:00:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Sean Inhetep

>Hey, is it just me, or would Sean make a great Setne Inhetep? :-)
>

P'bly just you. OTOH, if he worships Thoth you might have something.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:15:39 -0400

>>Hey, is it just me, or would Sean make a great Setne Inhetep? :-)
>>
>
>P'bly just you. OTOH, if he worships Thoth you might have something.

It's the bald head that does it.

I was actually thinking of a semi-nightmarish scenario in this sense. TSR
decides to use the Trademark Dangerous Journeys and decided to make a

DragonStrike-like video. They decide to do a plot from a novel. And they
can't nd Pro Actors. So they go to TSR sta. It was the bald head that
did it.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:51:53 -0400

>It's the bald head that does it.

FYI, I think he's referring to the pic of me up on the TSR info-page....

>They decide to do a plot from a novel. And they
>can't nd Pro Actors. So they go to TSR sta.

Judging from some of the ac^ng talent of some of the people here
at TSR, I'd have to agree that this would be a horrible movie....

>It was the bald head that did it.

Hey, I _like_ my bald head! Grrrr....

- Sean (at home)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:19:54 -0400

>Judging from some of the ac^ng talent of some of the people here
>at TSR, I'd have to agree that this would be a horrible movie....

It's plausable though. That's how some FMV CD-Rom games are made!
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:45:56 -0400

Subject: Magne^sm--is it NLP?

Have a quesôn for all of you.

The Magne^sm K/S area used to be a source of "vagueness" for me, since I
couldn't nd any real world analouge. (It's /like/ hypnosis, but /not/
like it, etc.)

But recently, I found out about Neuro-Linquis^c Programing, and it seems to
be similar to Magne^sm as dened in the mythus book, with a few slight
dierences.

Could magne^sm be NLP?

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 00:47:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Magne^sm--is it NLP?

Yes and no. NLP is really just a form of self-hypnosis, wherein the pakerns
of neural pathways a person has formed from repe^^ve behaviors are changed
through conscious re-programming. In its way it is purely a Mental area, as
all you are doing is changing a mental process, like re-wri^ng a computer
program.

Magne^sm, especially considered via Earth's history, is similar in its
process but operates on a person's will instead of their reasoning. Since
the Spiritual TRAIT represents a person's will and intuiôn, Magne^sm is
more of a subtle inuence on those who fall vic^m to it, a sort of hidden
dominaôn technique. It is more like changing the mind of a person who uses
a computer program, not the program itself.

Essenâlly, Magne^sm is just a Spiritual form of Hypno^sm. Now, what is
the dierence between Magne^sm's rst ability (geing people to like you)
and Charisma^cism's main use (geing people to like you)?

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 01:49:22 -0700
Reply-To: azabaro@ucsd.edu
From: Alan Zabaro <azabaro@UCSD.EDU>
Subject: [Fwd: Magne^sm vs. Charisma^cism (fwd)]

Subject: Magne^sm vs. Charisma^cism

On Fri, 14 Jun 1996, Donald Eccles wrote:
[...]
> Essenâlly, Magne^sm is just a Spiritual form of Hypno^sm. Now, what is
> the dierence between Magne^sm's rst ability (geing people to like you)
> and Charisma^cism's main use (geing people to like you)?
>
> Don
>

From Magne^sm's descripôn (pg. 189): "All individuals seeing and
hearing the persona with Magne^sm...who are not unwilling..."

The descripôn in Magne^sm seems to indicate that the persona has to
communicate at least indirectly with those he wishes to befriend.
Charisma, on the other hand, involves "behaving in such a manner that
people can't help but like you." My guess would be that Magne^sm
requires more of an eort and a direcôn (ie if the persona addresses
someone directly, that individual will be more likely to be swayed than
someone not addressed), whereas Charisma^cism is more a maker of
bearing. The Charisma^c persona needn't concentrate on the eect of
winning others (thus Akrac^veness increase is not subject to a K/S
roll), but the persona with Magne^sm has to focus his will upon those he
wishes to eect (so people can akempt to break free of a magne^st's
"akack").

All IMHO, of course.

Alan Zabaro
azabaro@ucsd.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:59:00 -0400

At 12:47 AM 6/14/96 -0400, Donald Eccles wrote:
>Yes and no. NLP is really just a form of self-hypnosis, wherein the pakerns
>of neural pathways a person has formed from repe^^ve behaviors are changed
>through conscious re-programming. In its way it is purely a Mental area, as
>all you are doing is changing a mental process, like re-wri^ng a computer
>program.

I have to disagree with that on two fronts. First of all, I can't call it
"self-hypnosis" since the while the skill is mental, I believe the actual
crav of prac^cing it is based on the Spirtual TRAIT, which involves
eec^ve communicaôn, etc. I also based this on the fact that the art of
Pyschology in other genres (Changeling and I assume Unhallowed) was listed

as a Spiritual K/S area (As opposed to Psychiatry, which is a Mental K/S area).

Secondly, from what I've seen of NLP in discussions, and comments, it
involves pracôners using pakerns of speech to determine behavior, and
trying to inuence that person by using "anchors" or "pakerns" to get that
person to do something. The person is usually unaware of this.

Some pracôners use this in a helpful manner. Some use it for
"salesmanship" or the like. One par^cular--IMO creep--has actual been
selling courses in "Speed Seducôn", where you use this stu to get women
to sleep with you.

While the skill seems more analy^cal, I'd propose that Magne^sm could be
considered an art akin to that. The descripôns seem similar.

===============================================================

FWIW, there is an error in the Magne^sm K/S area. There are actually 3
secôns. To Whit...

General Inuence of a Crowd is (1)

(2) should begin with the sentence "If one person is selected by and
concentrated on by the magne^st", thus "quasi-hypnosis of a persona"

Furthermore, I'm not certain whether the "Subversion" is a subset of 2 or a
whole other power.

Thus one uses Magne^sm to inuence a crowd...

One can use magne^sm on an unsuspec^ng person at a social event, striking
up conversaôn. If it goes well, the vic^m can be inuenced in several
ways...

One can then take a person who's magne^zed and confuse his or her moral
senses, eec^vely subver^ng them.

And one can use magne^sm to heal a person from trauma, using techniques
similar to #2.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 10:35:11 -0400
Subject: MUSH

Could someone please post the informaôn on that MUSH that was menôned
awhile back?

Thanks,
Larry

=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+
There are men too gentle to live among wolves : werebear@^r.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 15:55:29 -0400
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960614135900.0072b1c0@pop.âc.net>

Wow. Sorry to spam, but it's scary how similar some acronyms are. I
though John was talking about *my* NLP - Natural Language Processing, or
programming computers to model human speech - and it took me a good
minute or so to see what in the heck NLP had to do with Magne^sm...!

Speaking of Neuro-whatever-it-was-Programming, have my studies programmed
me or what? I'd like to hear more about this other NLP.

Ciao,
Resident Computaônal Linguist,
Patrick
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 18:23:45 -0400

At 03:55 PM 6/14/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Wow. Sorry to spam, but it's scary how similar some acronyms are. I
>though John was talking about *my* NLP - Natural Language Processing, or
>programming computers to model human speech - and it took me a good
>minute or so to see what in the heck NLP had to do with Magne^sm...!

No, it's not geeks that rule here. It's shrinks! ;)

>Speaking of Neuro-whatever-it-was-Programming, have my studies programmed
>me or what? I'd like to hear more about this other NLP.
>

Since several people have been curious, I'll post a response I sent out to
one person here. Not many people know about NLP. I myself found out by
accident.

>>
>>John,
>>
>>I always thought Magne^sm was a bit like The Master's ability to control
>>people from Dr. Who and the 'presence' a loved poli^cian has.
>
>Quite possibly,
>
>>
>>On another point: NLP. I only heard of this in Neal Stephenson's(?)
>>_Snowcrash_, is it real and if so, where did you hear about it and
>>where can I look it up? I love language and languages and this sounds
>>really interes^ng.
>>
>
>I've read Snow Crash--great book. But the "NLP" I think you're referring
to is not like the Sumerian code that "hacks the human brain" that you've
read about.
>
>NLP is a group of psychological techniques designed to understand how
humans think. It apparently involves the study of pakerns of language to
determine how one thinks--what mo^vates them, what mood a person is in,
etc. By knowing this, one can create a rapport using language and then
inuence that person.
>
>There is a newsgroup for this... alt.psychology.nlp. There are some web
pages devoted to the subject, but I need to look again to nd the perfect
one for introducing it.
>
>I heard about NLP while reading the alt.hypnosis newsgroup out of
curiousty. There was a lot of controversy over one person who has "Speed
Seducôn" courses. While hypno^sts tend to learn NLP, and may use its
techiques in psychology, this person used it to teach a course on how to get
women into bed. Ironically, to see why I think NLP might be Magne^sm, take
a look at this person's web site at hkp://www.seducôn.com. If this is
truly an eec^ve technique, its very scary! And this as well as the
relaônship to hypnosis is why I think there is such a thing as Magne^sm
in the real world.
>
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 20:59:11 -0400

Subject: Newsgroups Pos^ng.

I have posted an ar^cle to the newsgroup rec.games.frp.misc which I en^tled
MYTHUS Grows or T$R paves the road to lower prot. I invite members of this
mailing list to view it and contribute to the discussion. So far the
responses have been VERY nega^ve but people are apparently reading it. You
may disagree with all or some of what I say but it has begun a MYTHUS
discussion on the newsgroup. There is no bad press just make sure they spell
your name right.

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver

P.S. Does anyone know the courts(as in district numbers etc.) that the TSR
MYTHUS lawsuits were led in(both federal and Wisconsin)?
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 12:20:24 -0700
From: Todd South <tsouth@INETWORLD.NET>
Subject: New area for Gamers

I've been a bit quiet for about the past year on this
list, but I plan on becoming more involved! I now have a web
page set which will include Mythus informaôn RSN, but at this
^me I've nished the coding for 'The Gamers' Directory'.

The Gamers' Directory WILL be maintained and updated
monthly for at least the next three years, and I will provide
space for ever how large it may grow.

So, if you are interested in helping to create another
good resource for the Mythus/gaming community, please link to
the URL's below and use the form provided to become a listee
on The Gamers' Directory. Thanks!

Todd...
-Todd South <tsouth@inetworld.net>
The South Side! - hkp://www.inetworld.net/~tsouth/
Worlds of Adventure - hkp://www.inetworld.net/~tsouth/rpg.html
The Gamer's Directory - hkp://www.inetworld.net/~tsouth/tgd.html
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:58:27 -0400
Subject: Re: NIPI & Misc

Cyborg Commando
In the 4th Cyborg Commando adventure, "Safari", I pulled back to a more
light-hearted approach. Several aliens were exposed to chemicals etc. that
mutated them, and they developed personaliês that were rather... odd. The
characters start on the west coast of Africa and track them down, ending up
in the central jungles.
So if you want to know about Fat Charlie & the Street of Sins, or the
Sahara Forest, or other ibbetybits, Email me for details on obtaining a
manuscript of "Safari". BUT: Don't Email this name (Mythic); contact me at
my freelance writer logon: Wryter@aol.com

Aesheba
I always liked this one; Bob Blake did most of the work. For those who
don't remember, Bob wrote and coordinated most of the AD&D open tournaments
at GenCon.
I wrote the magic system in this, adap^ng tradiônal African mythology
(witches, witchnders, et al.) to a generic fantasy system. Ended up with
an extra half a dozen books in my reference library just from chasing down
authen^c African source material.

Other
>>Unfortunately the owners(stockholders) at TSR is what gives the comapny
a bad reputaôn<< (MW)

Well, since Lorraine owns 99+% of it (last I heard), that kinda focuses your
comment.

-- Frank Mentzer
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:59:02 -0700
Subject: Re: MYTHUS grows or T$R paves the road to lower prot

Here is my original post to the newsgroup rec.games.frp.misc along with a
response to the post and a response to the response from me. Please
contribute to this discussion. MYTHUS is being bashed VERY heavily online
and it seems by people who have never played the game. There appears to
be the misunderstanding that EVERY rule in the book must be used,so they
view it as complicated(just how I see it). Please at least read this
thread. The topic is at least geing MYTHUS some press. They say there
is no bad press just make sure they spell your name right-MYTHUS.

Best Regards,
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 13:01:58 -0700


This is my original post and the type of response it is geing. Please
at least read this thread at newsgroup rec.games.frp.misc

>>>
>>>T$R in a groundless lawsuit created a legal bakle that forced GDW to
>>>sekle out of court thus allowing T$R to acquire DANGEROUS JOURNEYS
>>Mul^
>>>genre role playing game system which included MYTHUS FRPG by Gary
>>Gygax
>>>and Dave Newton. This also no doubt contributed to puing GDW out of
>>>business(yes they had other problems as well). T$R by several acount
>>paid
>>>a signicant sum for this gaming system which they choose not to try
>>to
>>>make any money back on. This will no doubt lower their return on
>>assets.
>>>
>>>T$R stupidly decides not to support this game. Note that suppor^ng
>>this
>>>game system would not have to mean suppor^ng a genre that competes
>>with
>>>their AD&D 2nd.ed agship game. DANGEROUS JOURNEYS also included as
>>the
>>>original game UNHALLOWED a supernatural horror genre and CHANGELING a
>>>science côn genre game.
>>>
>>>Now fans of Gary Gygax and people who simply liked the game(and yes
>>there
>>>are MYTHUS players who support the game not Gygax) have stopped
>>buying
>>>T$R products,several players bought and converted AD&D modules to use
>>>with MYTHUS. Several players of AD&D 1st ed. have switched to MYTHUS
>>some
>>>because of the abusive T$R lawsuit,some because they liked the game
>>>beker. Now that Gary Gygax has a new fantasy role playing game
>>>out(whether T$R prints it or not) many players around the country have
>>
>>>began playing it and the game con^nues to grow by word of mouth(some
>>>even inquired about it because of the lawsuit). I predict that where
>>AD&D
>>>1st ed. is now played at several convenôns you will see it replaced
>>by
>>>MYTHUS. Be on the lookout next year for MYTHUS to be included in all
>>the
>>>non T$R sponsored convenôns(there are several). There may even come
>>the
>>>day that a very successful convenôn could be held without including

>>>AD&D 2nd.ed games. The players of MYTHUS and Gary Gygax supporters
>>will
>>>no longer be giving T$R free adver^sing. Many people hear of AD&D and
>>
>>>play 2nd ed. because it is the latest ediôn and AD&D was the rst
>>>RPG,well now the creator of the rst RPG has a new game for people to
>>
>>>play. T$R will no doubt feel the nancial impact of losing the MYTHUS
>>
>>>consumers as well many AD&D 1st.ed. players who if they con^nue
>>>playing (and I like 1st ed.) will at least stop buying as many(if any)
>>
>>>T$R product to support the game. There are other companies selling
>>>products that can be incorporated almost as easily. Thus,T$R has
>>chosen
>>>to pave the road to lower prots for itself,the sun is seing on the
>>
>>>empire,without the founder perhaps it was only a maker of ^me.
>>>
>>>Good Gaming,
>>>Michael John Weaver
>>>
>>Yeesh. Look, it's great that you like Mythus,
>
>Thank you I'm glad you think its great.
>
> but it will not rise like
>>a phoenix from the ashes of gaming.
>
>I have not said this. I said that I believe it will replace the posiôn
>that AD&D 1st ed. now holds at convenôns and among gamers. The game
>does not need to rise just con^nue to grow,there are many players
>already that have not stopped playing because TSR chose not to print it.
>
> The game was horible.
>
>I assume you will admit this is an opinion. One by the way over two
>hundred people online do not share with you.
>
>In an era
>>where most games were trying to have the rules be as streamlined as
>>possible, DJ ew back to the era of 2nd generaôn games. The era when
>>people thought that the weapons speeds and weapon modiers vs. AC
>>adjustments from 1st ed AD&D weren't realis^c enough.
>
>Now lets consider who wrote this game. The author of AD&D 1st ed. so the
>fantasy genre was made more realis^c. It was no doubt wriken for that
>audience that AD&D 1st ed. appealed to but thought the game could be more
>realis^c.
>
> The era when the
>>combat system might have ve pages of rules on how to roll damage.
> The
>>games that were more complex than the BAR exam. In short, games that
>>were nearly unplayable.
>
>I have to assume this is a exageraôn becuase not doing so would seem to
>severaly limit your capability of comprehension. I play MYTHUS and have
>not found it dicult at all in fact the iniâl creaôn covers so much
>material that actual play is greatly simplied,but that also is just an
>opinion.
>
> DJ seemed like a game where every rule that was
>>deemed too complex for AD&D got put in. Gygax's desire to invent a new
>>gaming vocabulary didn't help either. Heroic Personas? Heka?
>>Characteris^cs described by THREE names? Heka? Magik?
>
>It is every players of this game opinion almost to the person that the
>game was wriken for older more experienced role players who by the way
>liked the addiôns of these rules.
>
> A campaign world
>>where Egypt, sorry, Aegypt was the dominant force? (Yeah my players are
>>always bugging me to start a campaign in Egypt. But they lobby me more
>>for the chance to play 19th century poets.)
>
>Well I don't realy feel your players lack of sophis^caôn,educaôn,or
>lack of appreciaôn for history is the issue here. I have already stated
>that the game appeals to older more experienced gamers,who perhaps have
>some appreciaôn for the idea that ancient Egypt was the longest
>surviving civilizaôn in history. I would gladly play Edgar Allan Poe.
>
> The mirror Aerth? A weapons
>>list that has to dene what a ROCK is? If I wanted an overly complex
>>game that I couldn't understand, I'd get out my copy of AirWar.
>
>I'm sorry for your diculês in understanding,I did'nt have a problen
>with it.
>
>>Face it , TSR didn't rerelease it because they knew how bad the game
>>was.
>
>This logic would call for the immediate removal of several TSR products
>currently on the market. TSR ins^gated the suit as a personal akack
>against Gygax and GDW for having the audacity to support and publish a
>enemy of TSR. I agree that MYTHUS would probably not make money for TSR.
>To many people who play it are Gygax supporters and would never buy a TSR
>product and the market for the game is small enough not to warrant major
>TSR support.
>
>They didn't rerelease the Dallas RPG when they bought SPI. They
>>didn't reprint the All My Children game. which they did. Why would they
>>reprint a game even worse than these were?
>
>That is again an opinion. However, allow me to give you an answer since
>you asked. Aver you spend alot of money on acquiring an asset good
>business prac^ce is to akempt to make a prot/return from that asset.
>ok so TSR would lose money if they published it,but if TSR subcontracted
>MYTHUS or its other games they don't feel would meet their prot
>criteria by a licensing agreement for a specied number of years with a
>clause that included a percentage of sale and/or prot above a certain
>amount if the game was successful TSR would bent from their percentage
>and at the end of the contract be able to resume control themselves. If
>the product was not a success TSR would s^ll have proted from
>licensing fees. Possibly everybody could benet, the smaller company
>makes money but not enough to warrant TSR support(doesn't meet return on
>investment criteria) TSR s^ll has fees that it collects and gamers have
>more choices on the market. That's why.
>
>Sincerely,
>Michael John Weaver
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:36:44 -0700

At 12:59 PM 6/17/96 -0700, you wrote:
MYTHUS is being bashed VERY heavily online
>and it seems by people who have never played the game.

What else is new?

The Symbiote
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 21:37:59 -0400
Subject: MYTHUS Players Wanted

Experienced JM seeks MYTHUS Players in San Antonio,Texas.
Gaming sessions could be held as oven as once a week or as seldom as once a
month.
I could also JM in Houston,Texas 1-2 ^mes a month.

Good Gaming!
Michael John
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 23:43:21 -0400
Subject: Great Post

Ok...I've been gone for quite some ^me and it took a MAXIMUM EFFORT to read
all of the mail that I had accumulated, but I think it was well worth it.
This is really a note for M.J.W....regarding the post and the reply and the
reply to the reply. It was most entertainin.
1.) M.J.W. creates a post that is intelligent and well thought out
2.) An^-Mythus gamers post "oh yeah..well that's a stupid game..SO THERE!"
3.) M.J.W. responds with another intelligent post...crushing the inferior
intellects
4.) An^-Mythus gamers post "well you're a big dummy-head"

EXCELLENT WORK!!

"The best trick the devil ever pulled o was convincing the en^re world
that he didn't exist"

Wayne
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:18:36 -0400
Subject: Re: MYTHUS Players Wanted
In-Reply-To: <199606180137.VAA18679@darius.cris.com>

> Experienced JM seeks MYTHUS Players in San Antonio,Texas.
> Gaming sessions could be held as oven as once a week or as seldom as once a
> month.
> I could also JM in Houston,Texas 1-2 ^mes a month.
>
>
> Good Gaming!
> Michael John

Dammit. You're not moving to Bualo any ^me soon are you? :)

By the way, anyone from this part of the country around here????

Jesse


=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 00:41:58 -0400
Subject: Re: MYTHUS Players Wanted

At 01:18 PM 6/18/96 -0400, you wrote:
>> Experienced JM seeks MYTHUS Players in San Antonio,Texas.
>> Gaming sessions could be held as oven as once a week or as seldom as once a
>> month.
>> I could also JM in Houston,Texas 1-2 ^mes a month.
>>
>>
>> Good Gaming!
>> Michael John
>
>Dammit. You're not moving to Bualo any ^me soon are you? :)

No,sorry. The truth is I've never even been in NY state. Well I suppose
never having been there could give me an excuse to visit. What's the weather
like there? Its been averaging 98 degrees here everyday(and were in a drought).
I was going to try to make all the major convenôns in Texas this year(next
year for sure) perhaps you could make it to one of those. Any large gaming
CONS near you? I like to travel,my next trip in a few weeks is going to be
to the Brownsville Zoo. They have a Komodo Dragon(the largest lizard on
earth). The Komodo Dragon is also one of the deadliest creatures on earth.
It isn't poison but has alot of bacteria. Only one woman has ever survived a
full grown Komodo Dragon akack. I believe she ul^mately lost the leg it
bit. She spent 2 years in a french hospital being given massive
an^-bio^cs. Am I rambling? I wrote updated stats and bite eects for the
Komodo Dragon in MYTHUS and an adventure about it. I'll post it on Mikes
MYTHUS home page aver some polishing.
>
>By the way, anyone from this part of the country around here????

Mike Phillips' at the bokom of his MYTHUS page has implemented a MYTHUS
classied secôn(per my suggesôn) that will list
players,JM's,groups,etc.,you might try pos^ng an ad there.
>
>Jesse
>
>
>Ok I want to know,what's the story on your name? Jesse,Angela,why both?

Sports team: I live in San Antonio who traded Dennis Rodman(sp) the #1 NBA
rebounder to the Chicago Bulls,with Michael Jordan the NBA's lead scorer and
see who won the championship this year.

Best Personal Regards,
Michael John
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 00:47:36 -0400

My thanks to Mike Phillips for crea^ng a MYTHUS classied secôn on his
MYTHUS homepage.

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:02:48 -0400
Subject: Addendum to C'law discourse.

A few points on the copyright law, based on some earlier posts I didn't read.

>Also be aware that under
>the law the only remedy TSR could seek is to prohibit further
>publishing,they could not seek damges as that the stagnant prot doctrine
>would not be violated because noone beneked from the work.

Not en^rely true when it comes to Mythus. TSR amalgamized porôns of the
work for their AD&D games. The best proof of this can be found in one of
the books that talked about designing "True Spells", which has a creaôn
system that is denately lived from the Specic Cas^ng creaôn system
in Mythus Magick. I believe they also lived some of the weapon
descripôns from Mythus for their own weapons descripôns. There are
other, more subtle indicaôns TSR took the cream blobs oa^ng from the
Mythus game.

Used for a dierent purpose, of course, but TSR can prove that they are
pro^ng from the creaôns of Mythus in their own works.

(It's kind of akering, actually, that they think enough of the game to
use it in add-ons to AD&D. If it was a "bad game system", why do that?)

==================================================

>One interes^ng fact, though. Since

>it is illegal, and you don't own the copyright of the material you're
>publishing, you cannot sue if they decided to liv your material word for
>word and publish it for money (well, you can, but all things being equal, you
>won't win). They don't need to ask, they don't need to pay, they don't even
>need to list you as the author, or even as a contributor. This is one of the
>biggest things keeping me away from publishing much on the net.

Actually, this is not totally true. There have been legal precedents that
make living such works wrong.

For instance, JMS, Creator/Writer of Babylon 5, from what I've been told, is
either totally against fan côn and story ideas, or will avoid any
contact with forums that deal with those subjects, due to problems with
encountering that. Apparently, there were 3 B5 Scripts/Storylines that he
had to be scrapped because somebody widely distributed a similar idea.
There is some legal reason for this, I suppose.

I do note that TSR does not automa^cally claim "conscaôn" rights to
stu they discover. It is more of a case of "remove your works", or
"publish on our ocial upload areas agreeing to our statements of
ownership/rights".

==============================================

>But in reality(prac^ce) people do this everyday with video tapes and books
>and companies due not sue because the legal cost would be wasted as that the
>only remedy they could seek was consca^ng the material,monetary damages
>would not be awarded because no one beneked from the material a further
>point for defense in this situaôn would be that sales were not hurt
>because the material is not oered for sale by the copyright holder
>par^culary the new works that will have been created.

In terms of "everyday" stu, it all depends on market value. The Supreme
Court allowed Home Taping of copyright shows for private use due to the fact
that there is no general market being ursurped. Can you go out and
subscribe (get tapes) to your favorite sitcom? Fat chance! Same with radio
shows, etc. If there were a way to get everything you wanted easilly and
cheaply, /then/ they'd crack down.

"In Reality", the costs of copying works is very much a prohibi^ve factor
in and of itself. As far as I know, people /do not/ photocopy whole novels
or books...the cost is prohibi^ve, even for free. To copy the Mythus book
using a simple photocopier would cost anywhere from $40-$50 dollars! That's
deterent alone! Then take the fact that regular photocopies are inferior to
the work--further deterent. There's "copy-protecôn" on videotapes of
movies which deter copying.

That's why the Internet is being looked at carefully. The thing about the
Internet and electronic media is it is so damned easy to publish. No costs
for prin^ng, mailing, etc. With scanning, OCR, and now digi^zed
audio/video, there's a lot more potenâl for damage. This is why DVD
concerns have been delaying its roll-out. The movie and music companies
want to make sure this stu isn't easy to copy.

==============================================
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:02:50 -0400
Subject: Open to Sean.

Sean,

I was wondering about one thing...

Mythus is preky much gone in its true form. I doubt there will be any true
response to "Project Lazarus", at least the way it's thought about. I think
my proposals are doable, but again, they may not be looked on with favor.

What I'm proposing is something akin to what happened to the Hebrews under
the Roman Empire. While other countries converted to their religions, the
Hebrews got excepôn based on Taxaôn. This was due to their unique
religion and devoôn to it.

I would propose that TSR consider allowing the Mythus game web sites a
"special" status on the Internet. Rather than have to upload sites to an
"Ocal" TSR site, we could con^nue to publish our works provided that we
place a proper disclaimers on the pages.

I think this is possible based on two key features:

(1) Unlike any other TSR game, this one was aquired in a somewhat hos^le
manner. Yes, the parês sekled, but it wasn't a pleasant bakle, and in
the middle are the fans who feel like they've been conqured by the "evil
empire". Many express their hos^lity openly. If the company won't support
the gam, perhaps by giving them a modicum of Independence they can then feel
comfortable.

(2) The Mythus game is a likle dierent than any other game currently in
TSR's hold. There is very likle in the form of characters or names
associated with the world. AErth is an alternate Earth, with countries very
similar. Save for the Gygax Novels and their few protagonists, there are no
characters to worry about. With the DragonLance/Forgoken Realms game
worlds, there is a slew of unique NPCs, seings, etc, that need the added
"fanc" control, to prevent problems from occuring. Mythus doens't have

that. THere are no "NPC stats" for the states, nothing like that. Thus,
there isn't that concern to worry about.

(3) I write this assuming TSR won't be suppor^ng the game. If so, there
is less concern on this system than any other.

Of course, said sites would have rules. No Art from the system, use an
ocial disclaimer, not a hos^le raveout on "T$R", etc. But I think that
could be accepted by the masses.

Do you think this is possible? It might make things a likle easier for DJ
fans to swallow.

Just an idea...

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:56:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Open to Sean.
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960619170250.0075b328@pop.âc.net>

> Do you think this is possible? It might make things a likle easier for DJ
> fans to swallow.

I'd swallow that...happily. Then, we could hide like the Hebrews un^l
some Charlton Heston-type parts the Sea of Red Tape and leads us to the
"published" lands...

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:11:42 -0700
Subject: Re: Addendum to C'law discourse.
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960619170248.0075c610@pop.âc.net> from "John R. Troy"
at Jun 19, 96 01:02:48 pm

> Actually, this is not totally true. There have been legal precedents that
> make living such works wrong.
>
> For instance, JMS, Creator/Writer of Babylon 5, from what I've been told, is
> either totally against fan côn and story ideas, or will avoid any
> contact with forums that deal with those subjects, due to problems with
> encountering that. Apparently, there were 3 B5 Scripts/Storylines that he
> had to be scrapped because somebody widely distributed a similar idea.
> There is some legal reason for this, I suppose.

Actually, Joe Straczynski (JMS) has stated from the outset that story ideas
had to stay away; the scripts he had to scrap were due to some people
ignoring/misunderstanding his admoniôns to keep them out of public forums.
The "legal reason for this" is the fact that it's damn easy to slap a "cease
and desist"-type order on someone in this country, with very likle actual
evidence (Gary and Dave can tell us that!).

For a publisher with deadlines to meet, this is a major pain in the ass.
For a TV producer, it can be a death knell: the cost alone is frighul, but
having to stop producing the show mid-season is enough to virtually, if not
actually, cancel the show.

JMS's stated inuence on this decision was a court case in which Marion
Zimmer Bradley went through all the trouble of wri^ng one of her Darkover
novels, only to have a lawsuit slapped on her by the lawyer husband of a
writer of fan-côn. The fanc apparently contained similar ideas to the
novel. I believe the fan had even agreed (at an earlier date) that the
ideas were usable by Bradley at no charge, etc. But lawyers are not bound
by such things, as you might guess...

Just thought I'd add my thoughts to the general pile...

Aaron Brezenski

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:54:03 -0400
Subject: HP Gen's

Hey
How is work moving on HP Generators. I have been studying, and thinking,
about using an Access Database to keep track of most of the names and
numbers (like K/S Areas, Racial modiers, Vocaôns, etc) and using
Visual Basic to access Access (ouch!). It looks preky promising at this
point. Now, I know some of you goofs out here don't like VB, but you know
what? I am teaching myself. I looked at C and got a headache... ;-)

Does the database idea have any merit? I think it would work preky cool,
especially if I can get the DB to store HP generated informaôn, which
could be looked up, printed, or whatever, very easily...

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:15:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Q: Subterranean AErth - Lifeforms and Cultures

Here's my suggesôn about Subterranen AErth cultures, likle as it is:

*Keep reminding the HPs how foreign it is: the darkness, the closeness, the
wierd smells/sounds/air currents. Get them edgy.

*Don't have the sapient dwellers react in a predictable fashion. Think about
one or two social quirks before hand and consider how the ac^ns of the HPs
might enrage, confuse, or amuse the Subterranean dwellers, par^cularly in
something the HPs think of as normal, e.g. maybe saying "I come in peace" in
Trade Phoenecian is the punchline of a current joke among the Albies
concerning the travelling trog and the fungus farmer's daughter. When the
valiant HP solemnly delivers this line, the Albies all erupt into laughter,
confusing the heck out of the HPs.

*As for pantheons, I would really like to see some work on this. About the
only thing I can suggest is going into the literature and checking out what
various cônal/pseudo-scien^c works have had to say. Edgar Allen Poe
once wrote a story about a trip to the center of the Earth, as did Jules
Verne. Does anyone remember if there were cultures with deiês in those
works? Then, too, there are works like "The Smoky God" about a sailor's
purported trip to the actual interior, etc. etc. Short of that, we'll have
to invent something out of whole cloth.

DOn
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:26:44 -0700
Subject: Re: HP Gen's
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.93.960619235121.26983C-100000@lictor.acsu.bualo.edu>

On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Jesse wrote:

> How is work moving on HP Generators. I have been studying, and thinking,
> about using an Access Database to keep track of most of the names and
> numbers (like K/S Areas, Racial modiers, Vocaôns, etc) and using
> Visual Basic to access Access (ouch!). It looks preky promising at this
> point. Now, I know some of you goofs out here don't like VB, but you know
> what? I am teaching myself. I looked at C and got a headache... ;-)
>
> Does the database idea have any merit? I think it would work preky cool,
> especially if I can get the DB to store HP generated informaôn, which
> could be looked up, printed, or whatever, very easily...

The Jet engine (MS Access db engine) is rather good. I used it through a
few projects at school and it has a some rather nice features (at least
compared with some xbased db's). I've used VB as a front-end to the
Access engine - and thought it incorported a few nice methodologies (ie the Dynaset object) but was limited in how much 'power' it gave to the
programmer. I also started to layout the db structure for some Mythus
objects (skills, stats, equip, background, vocaôns just to start) but my
^me became limited and I passed this onto a person in my group (he hadn't
done anything with it) but not based upon any specic db (just seing
the relaônships and seing up a logical and ecient db).

Anyways, the other opôn is using a Paradox engine (I'd say this engine
has nicer features than the Jet engine). I've used it with front ends
based on C/C++ - but it can easily be referenced with VB. This would be
my recommendaôn (besides I usually try to stay away from M$).

I don't program much with VB or Access any longer (mostly Oracle nowadays)
but if I can help just shout. I s^ll have piles of reference material
laying about. :-)

Best of luck... er, break a leg. :-)

Je

-Je "Caesar" Sharpe
<jsharpe@portal.ca> <sharpe@li-business.ab.ca>

#include "std_disclaimer.h" Linux, GNU, & Thou...
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:49:04 +0000


> Hey>
> How is work moving on HP Generators. I have been studying, and
> thinking, about using an Access Database to keep track of most of
> the names and numbers (like K/S Areas, Racial modiers, Vocaôns,
> etc) and using Visual Basic to access Access (ouch!). It looks
> preky promising at this point. Now, I know some of you goofs out
> here don't like VB, but you know what? I am teaching myself. I
> looked at C and got a headache... ;-)
>
> Does the database idea have any merit? I think it would work preky
> cool, especially if I can get the DB to store HP generated
> informaôn, which could be looked up, printed, or whatever, very
> easily...
>
> Jesse

Jesse, I have the HP generaôn about 75% complete using a access
database. Let me know if you want ot look at it...

Daniel.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:37:23 -0500
Subject: HP Gen's

>How is work moving on HP Generators. I have been studying, and thinking,
>about using an Access Database to keep track of most of the names and
>numbers (like K/S Areas, Racial modiers, Vocaôns, etc) and using
>Visual Basic to access Access (ouch!). It looks preky promising at this
>point. Now, I know some of you goofs out here don't like VB, but you know
>what? I am teaching myself. I looked at C and got a headache... ;-)

Mine is coming along rather slowly (at least slower than I had hoped).
I had wanted to get a beta out to those who requested it within a week, but
as y'all no^ced, that has slipped by me. Too many other (work-related)
projects have come up for me to spend a lot of ^me on it, and the request
for total customizability takes a long ^me to implement! I'm s^ll
working on it though.

>Does the database idea have any merit? I think it would work preky cool,
>especially if I can get the DB to store HP generated informaôn, which
>could be looked up, printed, or whatever, very easily...

Databases are preky nice when you have a lot of data to keep track of
(which Mythus does), but I tried to stay away from them in designing mine
because I hoped to distribute this. I don't want to have to require
someone to not only have a specic OS (Windows, in this case) AND require
them to own a specic database product. Using VB gets around that problem,
but there s^ll is a lot of overhead involved in using a database. (Mine
is not going to be cross-plaorm in version 1.0 either).

On the other hand Jesse, one good HP generaôn program that uses a database
is a whole lot beker than 100 which don't get done. So maker how you
want to do it, I say go for it!

krk.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 14:49:43 -0400

I guess you could consider my FM 3 database a Beta++. I'm willing to provide
it to any interested parês, however, my only current access is via AOL and
I think it'll choke on the les.

Suggesôns?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 17:48:29 -0400
Subject: Mythus/Aria Hybrid?

Hey everyone,

A while back there was some talk about combining elements of Aria with
Mythus. Has anyone done any work on this? I'd do it myself if I could tear
my players away from AD&D. ;(

Thanks for your ideas,

Jason
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 17:27:22 -0700
Subject: Re: Mythus/Aria Hybrid?

At 05:48 PM 6/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Hey everyone,
>
>A while back there was some talk about combining elements of Aria with
>Mythus. Has anyone done any work on this? I'd do it myself if I could tear
>my players away from AD&D. ;(

Could someone explain Aria please. I have read about it many ^mes, but I
don't have the faintest idea what it is about.

Symbiote

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 20:52:47 -0400

>Could someone explain Aria please. I have read about it many ^mes, but I
>don't have the faintest idea what it is about.
>

From what I understand, it's more or less a Fantasy-based RPG that is
designed not just to develop individual characters, but whole organizaôns,
civilizaôns, cultures, and worlds. I think its appeal is for it's
"meta-generaôn" system, which allows GMs tools to create whole cultures,
economies, governments, religions, and even magick systems.

I've not seen it, but I'll be picking it up. Even if you don't use the game
system itself, supposedly its great for guiding a GM in crea^ng a campaign.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:01:48 -0500

>>Could someone explain Aria please. I have read about it many ^mes, but I
>>don't have the faintest idea what it is about.
>>
>
>>From what I understand, it's more or less a Fantasy-based RPG that is
>designed not just to develop individual characters, but whole organizaôns,
>civilizaôns, cultures, and worlds. I think its appeal is for it's
>"meta-generaôn" system, which allows GMs tools to create whole cultures,

>economies, governments, religions, and even magick systems.
>
>I've not seen it, but I'll be picking it up. Even if you don't use the game
>system itself, supposedly its great for guiding a GM in crea^ng a campaign.
>==================
>John R. Troy (JRT)
>johntroy@âc.net
>==================

I have never seen this product before. Could someone provide some info or
obtain a copy for me. This looks like great material... I ^red a while
back but it was sold out. Is it s^ll available somewhere?

Or is it at Gen Con?

Thanks

AJ=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 00:46:47 -0400

Yeh where can I get a copy...or is it as easy to nd as Mythus books?

Bill

"Why for you put me in the cold cold ground?" Taz Dev
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:18:20 -0400

Jason
What I've done regarding combining Mythus and ARIA is simply to use ARIA
for the descrip^ve areas, while retaining Mythus' rules. I don't really
have much of a choice, since I've s^ll only got Worlds (only "a likle
while longer") :) I'd assume that this plan could con^nue. I think it
ought to be fairly simple to use ARIA's Roleplaying creaôn rules and
input Mythus K/S Areas, Vocaôns, SEC, etc, when needed...

That would be the simplest answer. :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:26:06 -0400

> Yeh where can I get a copy...or is it as easy to nd as Mythus books?
>
> Bill

Ouch! :) ARIA's harder to nd, at least for another week or two. :) I
am VERY interested in puing together Mythus-compa^ble magick systems
using ARIA Roleplaying. If anyone has akempted this sort of thing yet,
let me/us know how it all worked out.

"Things" created using ARIA tend to be very literate and very wordy, I've
found... :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:29:22 +0100

>> Yeh where can I get a copy...or is it as easy to nd as Mythus books?
>>
>> Bill
>
>Ouch! :) ARIA's harder to nd, at least for another week or two. :) I
>am VERY interested in puing together Mythus-compa^ble magick systems
>using ARIA Roleplaying. If anyone has akempted this sort of thing yet,
>let me/us know how it all worked out.
>
>"Things" created using ARIA tend to be very literate and very wordy, I've
>found... :)
>
>Jesse
>

I tried doing this and it turned out to be a major headache! First of all,
all magick under ARIA comes from a SOURCE. In Mythus, this would be the
outer planes - and each one would be a diernet source, allowing dierent
levels of capability with dierent types of uses. For instance,
Necromancers would probably draw most of their energies from the shadow and
netherplanes. In addiôn, each deity, if you follow this train of
thought, can also be constrewd as a Source. So in the end, you can end up
with hundreds of sources!!

Then, there are dierent types of Magick. I was working on the lines of
Priestly magick, Dweomercr=E6v, Mys^cism, and that's about as far as I got=
.

Of course, many might believe that I overcomplicated my chores to the
extreme. I would tend to agree with you! :)

The point is that to design a system using the ARIA rules to _truly_
reect the types and capabiliês of the Mythus game, you'd have to do _a
lot_ of work.

I would also point out that I don't play ARIA for one simple reason: the
COMBAT system. I would say that the game has the best rules for
interacôn among characters that I've ever seen, and some of the best
character creaôn ideas too. Combat is a mess of numbercruncing, though.
If you like slick and smooth combat with lots of room for interpetaôn and
easy on the mechanics, you will probably not like what ARIA has to oer.
I have enough trouble managing a large group in a combat, and I certainly
don't need to futzy with half a dozen numbers per individual!!!

Do I recommend ARIA? HELL YES! Will I play ARIA? Not un^l something is
done to thin down my workload! With school, a job, and a social life, I
just don't have the ^me to devote to all the aspects that make ARIA unique
and exci^ng to me. I wish I could, and maybe someday I will, but un^l
then...

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 04:29:47 +0800
From: David MacKinnon <davidm@MUDGE.IT.COM.AU>
Subject: Aria availability - was: Mythus/Aria Hybrid?
In-Reply-To: <960622004646_419353963@emout13.mail.aol.com> from "William A
Helm" at Jun 22, 96 00:46:47 am

> Yeh where can I get a copy...or is it as easy to nd as Mythus books?

Second prin^ng is due out RSN I think...

-David
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:17:16 -0400


>I have never seen this product before. Could someone provide some info or
>obtain a copy for me. This looks like great material... I ^red a while
>back but it was sold out. Is it s^ll available somewhere?
>
>Or is it at Gen Con?

I've heard from people with the company (Last Unicorn Games) that the second
prin^ng would be shipped at the end of June. Then I heard the 2nd or 3rd
week of July. We of the Aria-L have become accustomed to this pushing back
of the release date. It is a great source book for world creaôn. I mean,
using Aria you can create _incredibly_ detailed worlds/socieês/naôns. As
a game it may be a bit cumbersome while s^ll being freeform enough to
require an experienced GM.

Jason
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:18:05 -0400


>while longer") :) I'd assume that this plan could con^nue. I think it
>ought to be fairly simple to use ARIA's Roleplaying creaôn rules and
>input Mythus K/S Areas, Vocaôns, SEC, etc, when needed...

Yeah, I was just wondering if anyone had actually done and had ^ps on
problems and soluôns encountered. I'm in the midst of designing and
running a world with three sets of rules in mind: AD&D (that's where the
players are), Mythus, and Aria. I'm just working on the qualita^ve stu
right now.

Jason
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:17:55 -0400



>Ouch! :) ARIA's harder to nd, at least for another week or two. :) I
>am VERY interested in puing together Mythus-compa^ble magick systems
>using ARIA Roleplaying. If anyone has akempted this sort of thing yet,
>let me/us know how it all worked out.

I haven't actually akempted it, but it seems to me that the biggest place
where change would be needed is in Heka acquisiôn. Rather than gaining
heka through KS areas, it could require trials of various sorts to be
gathered/concentrated/granted etc. based on the origin being exploited. The
KS areas could s^ll be used as usual for the cas^ngs. A truly ambiôus
person might try to divide the cas^ngs up by archtype and dominion, but
that's a likle too daun^ng for me.

Here's an idea! Use the Archetype Power and Dominion Facility values to
gure the Conguraôn Might for a given origin. The conguraôn might,
which will be a number between 2 and 10, is used to determing the maximum
mythus cas^ng grade available in that conguraôn. Then let the players
siv through the cas^ngs available to their character through the mythus KS
areas. Since most cas^ng eects could be characterized by more than one
conguraôn, the player would have to propose that a cas^ng be allowed to
his character by explaining it's conguraôn to the JM. Of course, he
would be limited to selec^ng cas^ngs from KS areas which he posessed. For
example, a simple cas^ng like the General Dweomercraev Grade II Forcedart
Charm could most easily be classied as Conjuraôn/Energy. Or, a crea^ve
player using say a nature type origin, could customize the cas^ng slightly
by describing the eect as a bolt of "an^-life". He could then argue that
the cas^ng falls under the Destrucôn/Organic Conguraôn; a
conguraôn in which his origin would probably have a higher Might. You
could even go a step further by adjus^ng the diculty of the cas^ng based
upon the might of the conguraôn being employed.

>"Things" created using ARIA tend to be very literate and very wordy, I've
>found... :)

Aint it great! :)

Jason
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 19:21:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Aria availability - was: Mythus/Aria Hybrid?

ok I'll wait for the second ediôn...I would like to see the old ediôn
though...

Bill
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 16:26:15 -0700
Subject: Making Liches/Necromancy

Okay, I need to make a liche, and to do so I looked at the Necromancy
cas^ngs. Unfortunately, there were virtually no cas^ngs which could help
with this, so I went to Necropolis, hoping to pull some of ol' Rahotep's
experiences could help me make one, but basically Set just gave him his
status, so that was no help either. Please help.
Also, am I the only one who thinks that the necromancer's cas^ng kinda
suck, as far as duraôn goes. Its true that the caster can animate corpses
and skeletons for long periods of ^me, but real undead, like necropires and
the troops they control stay around only on an AT scale. I realize this
prevents the accumulaôn of armies of undead, but it s^ll kinda sucks. I
picture a necromancer's (lair?) sanctum being protected w/ strong, scary undead.
(what's your closest approximaôn to a Ju-Ju Zombie? Necropire?)

Symbiote

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 01:30:43 -0700
Subject: Some Humor

Return-Path: think@ucla.edu
Comments: Authen^cated sender is <think@pop.ben2.ucla.edu>
From: "Safa Sadeghpour" <think@ucla.edu>
Organizaôn: UCLA
To: Friends
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 22:04:13 +0000
Subject: Humour - The Customer
Priority: normal

Caller: "Hello, is this Tech Support?"

Tech Rep: "Yes, it is. How may I help you?"

Caller: "The cup holder on my PC is broken and I am within my
warranty period. How do I go about geing that xed?"

Tech Rep: "I'm sorry, but did you say a cup holder?"

Caller: "Yes, it's akached to the front of my computer."

Tech Rep: "Please excuse me if I seem a bit stumped, it's because I
am.
Did you receive this as part of a promoôn at a trade
show? How did you get this cup holder? Does it have any
trademark on it?"

Caller: "It came with my computer, I don't know anything about a
promoôn. It just has '4X' on it."

At this point the Tech Rep had to mute the caller, because
he couldn't stand it. The caller had been using the load
drawer of the CD-ROM drive as a cup holder, and snapped it
o.

>>> I wonder where the ice machine is???

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 19:49:35 -0700
Subject: Whats going on?

Is anybody there?

Am I not geing anything or is the list down?

Mike

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:27:36 GMT
Subject: Re: Whats going on?
In-Reply-To: <199606250249.TAA37074@rho.ben2.ucla.edu>

> Is anybody there?
>
> Am I not geing anything or is the list down?
>

Hello?

I'm here too.

I think most of the list has gone home for the summer.

Mark Goode

Leicester

Etc.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 02:39:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Whats going on?

At 07:27 AM 6/25/96 GMT, you wrote:
>> Is anybody there?
>>
>> Am I not geing anything or is the list down?
>>
>
>Hello?
>
>I'm here too.
>
>I think most of the list has gone home for the summer.
>
>Mark Goode
>
>Leicester
>
>Etc.

I am s^ll here.

Michael John Weaver
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 13:46:32 -0400
Subject: Excel generators

I seem to have lost the messages about Excel character generators in a
switch to a new computer. If the people who posted about those could either
send them to me or let me know where I'd be able to get them on the 'net,
I'd be very grateful.

I'll see what I can do myself about Excel aids for Mythus, now that I have
the program.

Thanks in advance,
Charles Hagenbuch
hagendaz@prolog.net
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 17:40:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Excel generators

Mike's Web page has some stu that Dave Newton uploaded. They are Mac Excel
& Word les. I'm conver^ng them to PC format and will upload them when I'm
done. These include some Excel macros for HP generaôn. Since I don't have
Excel, though, I can't use them yet. If you have a Mac and Excell I'll send
them to you. Let me knowhow they work.

DOn
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 21:04:35 -0400
Subject: Stu on AErth

Current Rumors/News/et al from AErth...

The Merchant Caravan Blue Bear has disappeared on its way from the city of
Y's to Paris, apparently disappearing somewhere in Brekony. A few remnants
of the caravan were found just west of the Francian border. It is unknown
what has happened to either the goods or the people, though what few
divinaôns have been successful determined a "bloody struggle". It is

known, however, that traveling with this company was the famed adept
Urnadalm Bartulnin, an alchemist of great repute who was known to be adept
at heka-forging and had the ability to create several potent items, which he
sold.

Villages are being threatened with ooding in Holand, Flanders. Dikes,
Windmills, and other public works are being destroyed, vandalized, and
decimated. This has caused severe ooding, crop damage, and homelessness.
The work seems to be that of some person(s) or being(s) of heka-capacity,
but they have been unable to determine the exact origin, as they are masking
their work with counter-heka.

A potenâlly dangerous book has been stolen from the vaults of Oxford
University. The tome in quesôn is Al Finzar's Libram, a potent work which
was conscated by Druidic Agents (working against a potent demonurgist) and
kept sequestered in the vaults for over 200 years. The work contains unique
(specic) cas^ngs of Black Dweomercrav and Conjuraôn, as well as the
secrets of crea^ng a few potent magick items--including the creaôn of a
Titan^c "Gloomgolem".

Lyonesse is in the middle of a precarious situaôn involving the
Counter-sphere. Apparently, Fay Princess Yanshia of the Royal family of the
Seelie Court, has lev the court aver falling in love with the Son of a
humble Crover from the County of Myed. They have "run away", and the
whole Seelie court is in an uproar. So much so, that a whole /army/ of
Seelie has occupied the bulk of Lyonesse. They are coldly coopera^ng with
the court of Glydel II, but the situaôn is tense--they are being
"invaded", and the companies and bakalions (bulk of which are Elves with
Faerie Knights and Fay Lords, but including Gnomes, Dwarves, Alfen, and
others such as Spriggans, Unicorns, Sprites, etc, etc) are causing a lot of
uneasiness in the various towns, villages, etc. Apparently, the
star-crossed couple has ed to the wilderness areas.

The great city of Trezibond seems to be under assault by a sudden rise in
Ghouls. In the past few months, many encounters with Ghouls have been
reported in the slums and graveyards, mostly in the Lower and Port "Ciês",
but they have even extended to other areas nearby. Exorcists and
Aportropists have worked to check this, yet though many ghouls have been
destroyed, more s^ll plauge, and the ci^zens have been guarded in going
out during the night alone, even in the well-to-do areas.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 03:35:14 -0400


There are precious few references to Faerie deiês in folklore that I have
uncovered, but they do exist. Remember, strange as they are, all the
creatures of Phaeree are senênt beings and have thoughts, even though those
thoughts may be somewhat foreign to those of AErth (and, of course, Earth).

Menôn is made in "The Mysteries of Britain" of the deiês who created the
Tuatha de Danaan. Somewhere in the extant data the Faeries (specic race,
that is) are suggested as being these folk heroes, whose name means "Children
of the Goddess Danu". It therefore follows that Danu is one of the goddesses
of the Faeries. In like fashion, there are these names which were considered
ancient by the Druids, who worshipped the Kell^c gods:

Hen Ddihenydd = "Ancient and Unoriginated One", i.e. the one who had no
beginning and presumably no end;
Iau = "The Younger", son of Hen Ddihenydd, also know as Dovydd ("The Tower"),
Perydd ("The First Cause"), and Hu the Mighty.

Both of these are from the pen of Iolo Morganwg.

In "The Magic Arts In Cel^c Britain" Lewis Spence says the faeries of Wales
are known as the Tylwyth Teg ("The Fair Family") and are ruled by Gwyn ap Nud
(lord of the dead). Later, we nd a sea-god named Shoney of the Lews who
seems to have been a ruler of the mermen.

Doubtless more could be procured with diligent research.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 04:34:42 EDT
From: David Marshall <MARSHALL@BRIHOSP.MHS.COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Re: Excel generators

Can you please tell me for which RPG's are these Excel generators
designed for.

Thank you in advanced.
David Marshall.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 11:21:46 -0400
From: Nikodemus <tauman@EARTHLINK.NET>

At 02.49 PM 06-21-96 -0400, you wrote:

>I guess you could consider my FM 3 database a Beta++. I'm willing to provide
>it to any interested parês, however, my only current access is via AOL and
>I think it'll choke on the les.
>
>Suggesôns?
>
>
How big of a le are we talking about (assuming everything was zipped)?
I'm denitely interested.

--/Nikodemus
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 15:03:55 -0400

>How big of a le are we talking about (assuming everything was zipped)?
>I'm denitely interested.

The raw les total about 1.2 MB. That includes the main database and two
lookup les. I use them on a Mac OS system so I'm not sure what they would
be zipped, guess^mate 600k? I also have a PC compa^ble so zipping prior to
transferring isn't a problem.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 01:21:16 -0700

>Koshchei the Deathless--Evil En^ty, some^mes appears as a Rep^le, other
>^mes as a bony human. I have no other knowledge of him other than he was a
>good horseman.

Does this guy have anything to do with Kostochtchie(AD&D demon)??

Mike

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 01:46:45 -0700


At 04:33 PM 3/21/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>All you really need is the Mythus book 1 (GDW ref 5000).
>>Book 2, Mythus magic would help. Epic of Aerth is not, in my
>>opinion, neccessary.
>>Of course, you may have diculty obtaining these due to the legal
>>acôn by T$R.
>

Are there any copies of MMM in the warehouse??

Mike

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 12:51:45 -0400

>Are there any copies of MMM in the warehouse??
>
>Mike
>
>

According to one of the TSR reps a couple years ago, all copies of MMM were
destroyed. I'd certainly like to see it conrmed otherwise, however, since
then no one I know of has had any luck obtaining any of the MMM issues.

On a related subject.....
Sean,
Any luck on our geing permission to post the electronic version of MMM
anywhere???

Thx.

Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 02:38:55 -0400


>The raw les total about 1.2 MB. That includes the main database and two
>lookup les. I use them on a Mac OS system so I'm not sure what they would
>be zipped, guess^mate 600k? I also have a PC compa^ble so zipping prior to
>transferring isn't a problem.

For those of us who have MacOS, but not FileMaker, could you make this
self-running? I know it'd up the le size, but I'd be willing to deal with
it...

Charles
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 11:42:36 -0500
Subject: Educator Vocaôn (OP)

Just another vocaôn o the line...

I hope this has some uses in your campaign. I needed it for OPs at a
training ins^tuôn and sages just didn't have the correct avor this
^me.

comments always welcome. :)

The Educator

Educator Mental 2-6 3

The Educator is meant to be an OP used as a tutor, nanny, or teacher of
younger OP and HPs. With careful selecôn of bonus areas, this OP may
also be appropriate for training other older HPs or with approval of the
Game Master, become a HP. The bundle is made to give the general K/S
areas, where as the teacher themselves would specialize by choosing their
bonus areas wisely. An alterna^ve to choosing a bonus may be to allow the
creator of the character to spend a bonus slot to gain twenty steep points
to an area already possessed. An example of this would be a math teacher.
Instead of gaining a new mental K/S area, he or she may opt to take math at
24 instead of the 4 steep provided as a general K/S of the bundle.
Although this may create a very high steep and might appear highly
desirable, it is not recommended that this OP begin with any steep over 50
without addiônal eld work (adventuring) in order to maintain game
balance.

Educaôn 24 AveMC
Inuence 20 MRC
Literature 16 MMC
Leadership 16 SMC
Logic 16 MRC
Sports 12 AvePC
History 12 MMC
Charisma^cism 12 SPC
Current Events 12 AveMP
First Aid 12 PNC
Foreign Language12 MMC
Foreign Language12 MMC
Endurance 8 AvePP
Games, Physical 8 AvePC
Games, Mental 8 MRC
Percepôn Ment 8 PNC
Handicravs/Han 8 PNC
Mathema^cs 4 MMC
Public Adminn 4 MRP
Jack of Trades 4 PMC
Decepôn 4 MRC
Survival 4 PMC
Combat, H2 NL 4 AvePC
Travel 4 AvePC
total 256

Although this vocaôn is not terrically suited to adventuring, it would
be an excellent source for training and in town inves^gaôn. I would
normally include possible K/S selecôns, however, due to the nature of the
K/S bundle, I think anything would be plausible.

Created by AJ Schmidt (Schmidtj@win.bright.net)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 13:07:09 -0400

>For those of us who have MacOS, but not FileMaker, could you make this
>self-running? I know it'd up the le size, but I'd be willing to deal with
>it...

There are no provisions in FileMaker to create a self running database,
sorry.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 16:34:41 -0400


Actually, there is an applicaôn that makes FileMaker databases into
self-running apps; I have one I downloaded from Apple's Web site, but I think
it only works with the par^cular database it accompanied. S^ll, if you
upload it somewhere, I'll download it and try.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 11:55:37 -0400
In-Reply-To: <199606261519.IAA11562@hungary.it.earthlink.net>

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, Nikodemus wrote:

> >I guess you could consider my FM 3 database a Beta++. I'm willing to provide
> >it to any interested parês, however, my only current access is via AOL and
> >I think it'll choke on the les.
> >
> >Suggesôns?
> >
> How big of a le are we talking about (assuming everything was zipped)?
> I'm denitely interested.

A suggesôn to anyone wri^ng an HP generator or any other
Mythus-related game le. Drop it in /incoming on my vp site
(skaro.lawlib.wm.edu -- no Mythus stu there, usually!), and I'll put it
on my web pages.

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 02:19:18 -0400
Subject: Adventure seed

--=====================_836206645==_

--=====================_836206645==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Disposiôn: akachment; lename="EMP.TXT"

=20

The Man Who Would Be Emperor

On pg.71 of Epic of AErth (=A91994 TSR, Inc.) it states that there is
claimant of the House of Eavanor in hiding. This rumor is true. The
claimant is Evaemon Inheptep Colulcan.(I have HP sheet if you don't want to
work it up yourself). The story is this when Atlantlchol conquered Colulcan
and slayed every member of that line(pg.9) one woman(a Duchess) escaped.
She was put in hiding by a prince of Atlantchol(not the heir). This
Atlanchol Prince and Duchess were lovers and from them was born a son.(yes
illigimate) This line con^nued through many generaôns un^l Evaemon
discovered his heritage and decided to reclaim the throne.(note:this is not
because of power hunger,he believes it is his birthright and could help his
people.) This desire is also not all consuming some compromises could be
reached with excellent role playing. He is by all accounts that all to
frustra^ng Paladin(Cavalier)that uses violence as a last resort(which
should make the HP's mission harder.)

The rst emperor of Atlantl(the name of the new empire) was Evenor. The
former kingdoms were s^ll restless and force of arms was necessary to
control them.(pg.9) In a token eort to appease the former kingdoms Evenor
produced a decree that stated that any person of royal blood(which he
believed were slain) from any of the kingdoms if they aquired the three
items of royalty from Colulcan,Zuivanal,and Xalissa( shield,crown,sword),
which Evenor promptly gave away to kings around the world to beker
relaôns and seperate the items,could challenge the Emperor for the throne
by right of combat. Of course a challenger would probably never make it
alive to the Emperor. The empire which Evaemon holds claim of course no
longer exist so there is some quesôn as to whether or not this decree is
valid and what kingdoms would now comprise Atlantl. Evaemon of course has
royal ês to both Atlan^s and what is now Cholcan.

As the story has developed in my campaign: The HP's are of course sent on 3
quest to get the items. The Prince of Cholcan has declared Evaemon the Duke
of Colucan. Those familiar with royal lineage will realize that a prince
usually can not make a Duke and this was certainly done without the King of
Leons permission.(pg.16).With this Cholcan eec^vely announced its
independence. Leon has sent messengers(as has Cholcan) to all the naôns
of the Iberian-Atlantlan Concord(pg.27). The HP's might have to

1. get Evaemon somehow safely in front of the Emperor to challenge for
the throne.(it must be in person)
2. Represent Cholcan in front of the Royalty of Leon.
3. Represent Cholcan to other Concord members
4. Argue the validity of the ancient decree(there might be enough people
in the royal court to demand that this be heard)

I involved my HP's in this web simply by hiring them to retrieve an item
they knew nothing about and having to deliver it to a small town in Atlantl
controlled by Evaemon and his followers.

Wriken by: Jonathan Jus^ce
The author of this adventure seed releases it into the public domain.

This adventure seed is also available on Mike's MYTHUS page. It is=
reproduced here for your convenience.

Good gaming,
Michael John Weaver

--=====================_836206645==_-=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 13:28:01 -0400
From: Chrisân Danish/Tessera
<Chrisân_Danish/Tessera.TESSERA@TESENT.COM>
Subject: Quesôns

Could someone give me some background on this mailing list and if any games are
actually played here?
Is there a web page that is associated with this list?
Any background would be helpful.

Thanks, Chrisân
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 01:18:20 +0200
From: Frode Jacobsen <frodeja@POWERTECH.NO>
Subject: Help! Lost all mail from the list

Hi there,

Time to come out of the shadows.

I have a problem here, when I turned on my pc today all the mail in my
mythus mailbox were gone, don't ask me how. Anyways, what I'm asking is if
anyone would care to email me their mythus mailbox as an akachment? Btw I
use Eudora.

And while I'm at it, have anyone done any work on the Kel^c pantheon? I'm on
the lookout for some good sourcebooks about the religion and its prac^ses, I
need to esh out my character a bit. I'm par^cularly interested in the
Irish part
of the mythology, any suggesôns would be helpful. And since I have a lot of
free ^me I could have a go at doing something with it...

thanks

Frode
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 17:52:54 -0700

At 01:28 PM 7/1/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Could someone give me some background on this mailing list and if any games are
>actually played here?
>Is there a web page that is associated with this list?
>Any background would be helpful.

Normally we do lots of stu and talk about a lot of things. However,
almost evryone has gone home(apparently), and the list has become preky
dead(which is REALLY unfortunate, considering this is the one ^me of the
year that I have free ^me). Anyway, there are several pages around, looka
at uhhh....

hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/

and you can hop around to the other spots.

Enjoy the stu and write back!

(I will ask again, how should lich creaôn be handled, in light of(or
darkness of) the necroman^c school?)

My name is
Mike
in spite of what this sig says

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 22:55:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Making Liches/Necromancy

>Okay, I need to make a liche, and to do so I looked at the Necromancy
>cas^ngs. Unfortunately, there were virtually no cas^ngs which could help

>with this, so I went to Necropolis, hoping to pull some of ol' Rahotep's
>experiences could help me make one, but basically Set just gave him his
>status, so that was no help either. Please help.

Hmm...

I believe a Lich(e) is just a form of undead Mage (or Magister). It is
Unliving, which means it would not u^lize cunning, and ranks above "simple"
undead such a Ghouls. It is s^ll Preternatural in power, thus a "standard"
Liche would be no match in an equal ght with a Supernatural Vampire.

In Necropolis, EGG stated that there are two means of becoming Undead:
Demonic inuence (Vampire, Ghoul) or diabolic art (haunt, gravewright,
lich--though I think haunt is in error there). This is very vague.
However, I believe the laker type of undead are less "starved"--they don't
have huge ravenous appi^tes for living ^ssue/uids.

A Lich would need at least a few susceptabiliês. Probably not sunlight,
but perhaps something else... dunno here.

Creaôn should be long. I /don't/ think Necromancy is needed here. Keep
in mind Necromancy usually gives power over undead, so why would a
to-be-undead work on that study. I see the true Necromancers as being
"s^ll-human yet just on the ^p of undeath", the most superior form.

>Also, am I the only one who thinks that the necromancer's cas^ng kinda
>suck, as far as duraôn goes. Its true that the caster can animate corpses
>and skeletons for long periods of ^me, but real undead, like necropires and
>the troops they control stay around only on an AT scale. I realize this
>prevents the accumulaôn of armies of undead, but it s^ll kinda sucks. I
>picture a necromancer's (lair?) sanctum being protected w/ strong, scary
undead.

The whole thing is that "real" undead are not pushovers, and just as mortals
can't up and create living creatures one can't create Undead creatures that
easilly.

A Necromancer would likely not have "long-term" guardians such as you state.
If so, he would likely augument his abiliês with Conjuraôn which allows
much beker control over said creatures.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 22:35:33 -0500

In response to Mike...and John...

>>Okay, I need to make a liche, and to do so I looked at the Necromancy
>>cas^ngs. Unfortunately, there were virtually no cas^ngs which could help
>>with this, so I went to Necropolis, hoping to pull some of ol' Rahotep's
>>experiences could help me make one, but basically Set just gave him his
>>status, so that was no help either. Please help.

>I believe a Lich(e) is just a form of undead Mage (or Magister). It is
>Unliving, which means it would not u^lize cunning, and ranks above "simple=
"
>undead such a Ghouls. It is s^ll Preternatural in power, thus a "standard=
"
>Liche would be no match in an equal ght with a Supernatural Vampire.
>
>In Necropolis, EGG stated that there are two means of becoming Undead:
>Demonic inuence (Vampire, Ghoul) or diabolic art (haunt, gravewright,
>lich--though I think haunt is in error there). This is very vague.
>However, I believe the laker type of undead are less "starved"--they don't
>have huge ravenous appi^tes for living ^ssue/uids.

Although I have not read Necropolis, I might be able to help....(been
gaming for a lnog while)

I would rst suggest some background reading from the EGS, Von Lichensên
(?) guide to undead - Liches (I think). At least it is something like
that. Also I believe there was an ar^cle published in Dragon "On becoming
a Lich..." (?)

>A Lich would need at least a few susceptabiliês. Probably not sunlight,
>but perhaps something else... dunno here.

Refer to later....

>Creaôn should be long. I /don't/ think Necromancy is needed here. Keep
>in mind Necromancy usually gives power over undead, so why would a
>to-be-undead work on that study. I see the true Necromancers as being
>"s^ll-human yet just on the ^p of undeath", the most superior form.

I agree here. I think Black Dweomercr=E6v might be appropriate with some
possibly sorcery. Necromancy seems to be the ability to control and "fake"
undead, but perhaps it may s^ll play a part.
If you wish to pakern the Lich aver a Mage possesed by power,
immortality, and Magick I really feel Black will lead the way. Possibly a
level X cas^ng to be involved in the process of creaôn (or destrucôn.)
Since this creature would be created and powered by nega^ve heka,
possi^ve heka would be a great weakness.

>>Also, am I the only one who thinks that the necromancer's cas^ng kinda
>>suck, as far as duraôn goes. Its true that the caster can animate corps=
es
>>and skeletons for long periods of ^me, but real undead, like necropires a=
nd
>>the troops they control stay around only on an AT scale. I realize this
>>prevents the accumulaôn of armies of undead, but it s^ll kinda sucks. =
I
>>picture a necromancer's (lair?) sanctum being protected w/ strong, scary
>undead.

Agreed.
Ah... perhaps more of those Black Conjurers are needed to make protectors.
Maybe even Sorcerers might make some spells...Ah YES! the POWER! I'll get
to researching right away! >;)

>The whole thing is that "real" undead are not pushovers, and just as mortal=
s
>can't up and create living creatures one can't create Undead creatures that
>easilly.

Yet.

>A Necromancer would likely not have "long-term" guardians such as you state=
.
>If so, he would likely augument his abiliês with Conjuraôn which allows
>much beker control over said creatures.

True. And as stated before, these things are tough, why do they always need
them. One Lich might be enough (or too much) for a whole party. The
tradiônal "sovening-up" approach of EGS may not be appropriate,
depending on the experience and ampatability of your players.

Good Gaming!

AJ=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 00:23:38 -0400

>Also, am I the only one who thinks that the necromancer's cas^ng kinda
>suck, as far as duraôn goes. Its true that the caster can animate corpses
>and skeletons for long periods of ^me, but real undead, like necropires and
>the troops they control stay around only on an AT scale. I realize this
>prevents the accumulaôn of armies of undead, but it s^ll kinda sucks. I
>picture a necromancer's (lair?) sanctum being protected w/ strong, scary
undead.

>The whole thing is that "real" undead are not pushovers, and just as
>mortals
>easilly.

Keep in mind, too, that Zombies and Skeletons, which can be animated for
months at a ^me, do not suer Hit Locaôn rolls and thus all damage they
sustain is Non-Vital. In fact, Piercing akacks only do1 point plus PMPow
bonus (or something like that). With a P TRAIT of 80, these suckers are
harder to kill than a demon in that way.

And that is without a necromancer puing armor on themx

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 00:29:35 -0400

At 10:55 PM 7/1/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>Okay, I need to make a liche,

(MJW)
One needs to dene Lich. According to the original deniôn in AD&D 1st
ed. one cannot make a lich.

(MJW)
oh by the way, why?

and to do so I looked at the Necromancy
>>cas^ngs. Unfortunately, there were virtually no cas^ngs which could help
>>with this, so I went to Necropolis, hoping to pull some of ol' Rahotep's
>>experiences could help me make one, but basically Set just gave him his
>>status, so that was no help either. Please help.

Actually Rahoptep through his force of will with Set's blessing became
somewhere between undead and a quasi-deity. (pg.9 NECROPOLIS)
>
>Hmm...
>
>I believe a Lich(e) is just a form of undead Mage (or Magister). It is
>Unliving, which means it would not u^lize cunning, and ranks above "simple"
>undead such a Ghouls. It is s^ll Preternatural in power, thus a "standard"
>Liche would be no match in an equal ght with a Supernatural Vampire.
>
>In Necropolis, EGG stated that there are two means of becoming Undead:
>Demonic inuence (Vampire, Ghoul) or diabolic art (haunt, gravewright,
>lich--though I think haunt is in error there). This is very vague.

>However, I believe the laker type of undead are less "starved"--they don't
>have huge ravenous appi^tes for living ^ssue/uids.
>
>A Lich would need at least a few susceptabiliês. Probably not sunlight,
>but perhaps something else... dunno here.
>
>Creaôn should be long.

(MJW)
I personally disagree with you on this point. If we dene a lich as a
formerly powerful and now s^ll powerful priest/dweomercraever (see my
rst post) then creaôn should not be possible at all. Now if a JM wishes
to create one for use in his adventure that is a dierent maker as a JM
has access to divine and/or demonic gaming intervenôn and powers. I also
think that this could create problems with deceased HP's wan^ng to come
back as liches. In short a lich is a VERY powerful creature that is
currently and should remain in this game system out of the HP's ability to
create.

I /don't/ think Necromancy is needed here. Keep
>in mind Necromancy usually gives power over undead, so why would a
>to-be-undead work on that study. I see the true Necromancers as being
>"s^ll-human yet just on the ^p of undeath", the most superior form.
>
>>suck, as far as duraôn goes. Its true that the caster can animate corpses
>>and skeletons for long periods of ^me, but real undead, like necropires and
>>prevents the accumulaôn of armies of undead, but it s^ll kinda sucks. I
>undead.
>
>The whole thing is that "real" undead are not pushovers, and just as mortals
>easilly.
>
>A Necromancer would likely not have "long-term" guardians such as you state.
>If so, he would likely augument his abiliês with Conjuraôn which allows
>much beker control over said creatures.
>==================
>John R. Troy (JRT)
>johntroy@âc.net
>==================
>
>For purposes of clearity my iniâls (MJW) appear over my responses.

Good gaming,
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 01:30:23 -0400

Subject: Re: Quesôns (Lich in par^cular)\
In-Reply-To: <199607020052.RAA28692@rho.ben2.ucla.edu>

Hey Mike-who-isn't-Chris (Symbiote)

You were wondering how to create a lich. Well, let's think about it for
a while. It is fairly easy to come up with Cas^ngs, and simple enough to
s^ck some ritualis^c stu along with it... let me think on it (if no
one else wants to do so) for a couple days and get back to you all....this
may come in handy for my campaign...

Jesse

(planning on being here the rest of the summer! :))

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 01:57:52 -0400
In-Reply-To: <v01530500adfde5eb7f66@[206.68.74.101]>

Okay, some thoughts aver reading John & John...

Black Wizardry is denitely the way to go. However, Necromancy would be
a side requirement... :)

No way would Liche-dom require the near-supernatural power of a Grade X
Cas^ng. Mythus I, page 70, in the chart STEEP Level Descripôns: I
found that one "only" needs beker than 61 STEEP to achieve "Pioneer-level
knowledge..." It occurs to me that making oneself a liche is at least
that level. I would, therefore, create a Cas^ng of Grade VII.

Note that Liches and other "senênt" unlife must maintain some form of a
life force. Hmmm...thinking about this, I'd guess that keeping a life
force around aver death would require a separate vessel. This would
require either Wizardry (DWCrav for you purists! :)) or Heka-Forging:

Vessel of Life Ritual (Grade 6-7)
Time: Special
Area: A Bokle or other vessel
Distance: preky close...

Other Costs: Plenty I would assume...(I'll think about this more)
E/F/M: Okay, this ritual takes at least a few days, since the creator
must essenâlly make it him/herself. (has anyone seen a female lich
anywhere?) The creaôn process helps to akune the "aura" of the persona
to the item (kind of a mys^cal ê there).
This bokle is where the life force of the soon-to-be Lich is kept. The
^me of its duraôn is rela^ve to the Heka of the EP (I'm assuming the
persona would be evil!). I would assume that it could not be permanent
(unless other, more complex Heka Forgings are used, of course!). Perhaps
a single point of Heka per week would suce: Think about it, the average
NASTY EP has to have a couple thousand Heka laying around, as well as some
Reservoirs, Rituals of Concentraôn and the like...

Once the Bokle is done, it's ^me for:

Sustain Lifeforce Ritual (Grade 8 Black Wizardry)
Time: Eternal (Dependent on bokle, see below)
Area: The caster and his bokle
Distance: Not too far!
Other Costs: Whatever...
E/F/M: This is the Cas^ng which actually kills the EP. Every point of
Physical TRAIT possessed by the EP becomes Magickal Armor Factors for the
Vessel. The Liche's base Physical then becomes his old, living Mental
TRAIT. This can be increased later, thru some other to-be-created
Cas^ng. This ritual, which would last a Long Time (say, weeks), actually
takes the life force from the body of the EP and transfers it to the
Vessel which was created with the former Cas^ng. There needs to be a
Vessel, of course, or this won't work.
This ritual allows the Liche to exist for as long as there is life in
the Vessel. Other Cas^ngs would probably enable the EP to increase the
protecôn and Structual Capacity of the Vessel (since he/she really would
not like the thing to be busted).

Okay, some thoughts: These Cas^ngs give you all something to really work
with, instead of the theories which have been bandied about (no oense,
please, I'm just in the mood for material things! :)). Also, they provide
a nivy story-line-capable Weakness for the otherwise hard to beat undead!
Imagine the players' suspense when they nd out the hard way that bea^ng
the creature in a one on one bakle would not be possible, and that they
have to nd a way to get a hold of its "Life's Bokle" and nd a way to
destroy it...

Quesôns, Comments?

(Flames | /dev/null) (Hey Mike (Mr. Linux), is that right? :))

Jesse


=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 01:59:18 -0400
In-Reply-To: <v01530500adfde5eb7f66@[206.68.74.101]>

Gang:

I hope that last long bit about Liches was readable...its geing preky
late... :)

Let me know please (I'm an ego hound!)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 02:21:54 -0400
Subject: MYSTIC Vocaôn

MYSTIC Vocaôn
(Spiritual Trait)

SEC range 5-9, SEC at start 6

First note that because of the high number of heka genera^ng K/S areas a HP
must have a spiritual trait of 91 or above to be a Mys^c.

K/S Areas

Mys^cism 24 SP Cap

Apotropaism 16 (MM Cap + MR Cap x .5)

Astrology 16 SM Cap

Divinaôn 16 SP Cap

Fortune-Telling 16 SP Cap

Yoga 16 SM Cap

Foreign Language(choice) 12 MM Cap


Herbalism 12 SM Cap

Heka-Forging 12 (PM Pow + PN Pow x .5)

Magick 12 MR Cap

Metaphysics 12 SM Cap

Mutl^versal Planes&Spheres 12 SP Cap

Combat,HTH,Non-lethal 8 (PM Cap + PN Cap x .5)

Demonology 8 MM cap

Games,Mental 8 MR Cap

History 8 MM Cap

Occul^sm 8 SM Cap

Pantheology 8 SM Cap

Phaeree Flora&Fauna 8 MM Cap

Handicravs/Handiworks 4 PN Cap

Travel 4 (PM Cap + PN Cap x .5)

Base STEEP 252

The true Mys^c is one that both foretells the future and oers advise as
to what one should do to avoid disaster or to enhance ones posi^ve outcomes.
The role of the Mys^c is a passive/defensive one. The Mys^c has no
interest in performing exorcisms, that role being lev to those who choose
to specialize in situaôns already gone awry. The Mys^c can oven be found
in the employment of nobles and even on occassion in Royal courts working
closely with full pracôneer Dweomercraevers and Priests.

Wriken by Michael John Weaver

The author of this vocaôn releases it into the public domain.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 00:07:08 -0400


>
>(I will ask again, how should lich creaôn be handled, in light of(or
>darkness of) the necroman^c school?)
>
>My name is
>Mike
>in spite of what this sig says
>
Mike,

It would depend on how one denes Lich. According to the AD&D 1st ed.
MONSTER MANUAL (copyright TSR Games 1978) pg. 61 " A lich exist because of
its own desires and the use of powerful and arcane magic. The lich passes
from a state of humanity to a non-human,non-living existence through force
of will. It retains this status by certain conjuraôns,enchantments,and a
phylactery."

It also states that a lich must have been at least a 18th level magic user.
I would equate this to the ability to use at least 7th grade cas^ngs in at
least 3 areas conjuraôn,sorcery,necromancy,witchcraev,Dweomercraev Black
school,Priests of Gloomy Darkness,all being possible areas.

Thus, one could not make a lich it must come into existence through force of
will.

This is just my humble opinion on the subject. If one redenes Lich there
may be more possibiliês of course.

Good gaming,
Michael John Weaver
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 02:57:57 -0400

At 01:57 AM 7/2/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Okay, some thoughts aver reading John & John...
>
>Black Wizardry is denitely the way to go. However, Necromancy would be
>a side requirement... :)
>
>No way would Liche-dom require the near-supernatural power of a Grade X

>Cas^ng. Mythus I, page 70, in the chart STEEP Level Descripôns: I
>found that one "only" needs beker than 61 STEEP to achieve "Pioneer-level
>knowledge..."

Yes but the vaccine for Polio or going to the moon was pioneer level
knowledge not supernatural knowledge.

It occurs to me that making oneself a liche is at least
>that level.

I would, therefore, create a Cas^ng of Grade VII.
>
>Note that Liches and other "senênt" unlife must maintain some form of a
>life force. Hmmm...thinking about this, I'd guess that keeping a life
>force around aver death would require a separate vessel. This would
>require either Wizardry (DWCrav for you purists! :)) or Heka-Forging:
>
>Vessel of Life Ritual (Grade 6-7)
> Time: Special
> Area: A Bokle or other vessel
> Distance: preky close...
> Other Costs: Plenty I would assume...(I'll think about this more)
> E/F/M: Okay, this ritual takes at least a few days, since the creator
>must essenâlly make it him/herself. (has anyone seen a female lich
>anywhere?) The creaôn process helps to akune the "aura" of the persona
>to the item (kind of a mys^cal ê there).
> This bokle is where the life force of the soon-to-be Lich is kept. The
>^me of its duraôn is rela^ve to the Heka of the EP (I'm assuming the
>persona would be evil!). I would assume that it could not be permanent
>(unless other, more complex Heka Forgings are used, of course!). Perhaps
>a single point of Heka per week would suce: Think about it, the average
>NASTY EP has to have a couple thousand Heka laying around, as well as some
>Reservoirs, Rituals of Concentraôn and the like...
>
>Once the Bokle is done, it's ^me for:
>
>Sustain Lifeforce Ritual (Grade 8 Black Wizardry)
> Time: Eternal (Dependent on bokle, see below)
> Area: The caster and his bokle
> Distance: Not too far!
> Other Costs: Whatever...
> E/F/M: This is the Cas^ng which actually kills the EP. Every point of
>Physical TRAIT possessed by the EP becomes Magickal Armor Factors for the
>Vessel. The Liche's base Physical then becomes his old, living Mental
>TRAIT. This can be increased later, thru some other to-be-created
>Cas^ng. This ritual, which would last a Long Time (say, weeks), actually
>takes the life force from the body of the EP and transfers it to the
>Vessel which was created with the former Cas^ng. There needs to be a
>Vessel, of course, or this won't work.
> This ritual allows the Liche to exist for as long as there is life in
>the Vessel. Other Cas^ngs would probably enable the EP to increase the
>protecôn and Structual Capacity of the Vessel (since he/she really would
>not like the thing to be busted).
>
>Okay, some thoughts: These Cas^ngs give you all something to really work
>with, instead of the theories which have been bandied about (no oense,
>please, I'm just in the mood for material things! :)).

Also, they provide
>a nivy story-line-capable Weakness for the otherwise hard to beat undead!
>Imagine the players' suspense when they nd out the hard way that bea^ng
>the creature in a one on one bakle would not be possible, and that they
>have to nd a way to get a hold of its "Life's Bokle" and nd a way to
>destroy it...
>
>Quesôns, Comments?

Comment: Imagine your campaign when they discover these cas^ngs and create
armies of liches. If a JM wants a lich why are cas^ngs required? see more
detailed response below.
>
>(Flames | /dev/null) (Hey Mike (Mr. Linux), is that right? :))
>
>Jesse
>
>
>Ok it seems my original post never made to the list so I will repeat it,if
it turns up I apoloigize in advance for the duplicaôn.

Lich is dened by the AD&D 1st ed. MONSTER MANUAL (copyright TSR Games 1978).
Pg.61 states under Lich " A lich exist because of its own desires and the
use of powerful and arcane magick. The lich passes from a state of humanity
to a non-human,non-existence through force of will. It retains this status
by certain conjuraôns,enchantments,and a phylactery."

It goes on to state that "Liches were formerly ultra powerful magic-users or
magic users/clerics of not less than 18th level of magic use."

Thus one cannot make a lich. A lich comes into existence by its own force of
will and desire aver death. Furthermore a lich has to have access not to
just powerful magic but arcane magic. In the MYTHUS game it is with the
current rules impossible to create a lich via HP cas^ngs and IMHO should
remain that way. Are no JM's worried about the deceased HP that wants to
come back and play a lich?

I relate the 18th level of magic in AD&D to a a HP being able to u^lize 7th
grade cas^ngs in no less than 3 areas.
Necromancy,Witchcraev,Sorcery,Conjuraôn,Dweomercraev Black,and Gloomy
Darkness Priestcraev could all be choices for the needed 3 areas.

However,a JM has access to divine/demonic intervenôn. A JM could bring a
lich into existence via such intervenôn and a former evil priests will.
Dening such cas^ngs for the HP to be able to u^lize is a severe
dirupôn of game balance and should not be allowed. A HP crea^ng a VERY
powerful lich(visions of Rahoptep in my head) not in my campaigns.

Good gaming,
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 02:13:08 -0700

At 01:30 AM 7/2/96 -0400, you wrote:

In response to lots of people

Katsin, do not read this if you are interested in playing in my campaign.
PS-email about a good ^me to meet-this weekend is not so good
Erase it as soon as you read this.
Or you die.(Contains campaign destroying spoilers)

>Hey Mike-who-isn't-Chris (Symbiote)
>
>You were wondering how to create a lich. Well, let's think about it for
>a while. It is fairly easy to come up with Cas^ngs, and simple enough to
>s^ck some ritualis^c stu along with it... let me think on it (if no
>one else wants to do so) for a couple days and get back to you all....this
>may come in handy for my campaign...

Sounds good to me.

I am basically trying to dene whatkeeps the liche in a fully funcônal
state(energy provided from the Nether plane(my current prime choice), or
larva(diabolical lemures and strong possiblility since lichdom was cited as
diabolical in nature), or something else.

I like the black wizardry requirements ideas, and the soul object part

>Black Wizardry is denitely the way to go. However, Necromancy would be
>a side requirement... :)

>No way would Liche-dom require the near-supernatural power of a Grade X
>Cas^ng. Mythus I, page 70, in the chart STEEP Level Descripôns: I
>found that one "only" needs beker than 61 STEEP to achieve "Pioneer-level
>knowledge..." It occurs to me that making oneself a liche is at least
>that level. I would, therefore, create a Cas^ng of Grade VII.>

I dunno. I have always though of making oneself a liche as possible but
requiring years of preparaôn(the majority of which would be research), but
also acquiring rare/arcane/otherworldly components necessary for the ritual.

I was also thinking of the nal ritual being on a grade IX or X level(or
there would be armies of liches running around once black wizards realize
they could extend thier existence by hundreds of years with a moderate/high
level mastery of Necromancy) Plus these rituals should be rare enough, that
each is not very distant from its originally researched form, and would thus
s^ll carry the one grade penalty. Conversely, one might engage on a grand
quest to discover the secrets of lichdom which were codied by an ancient
and evil civilizaôn long ago, involving the combaing/outwiing of at
least a liche or two and thier minions(how about seriously decayed liches
and demiliches instead) Which are worse?? Hard to say. Geez I'm feeling
like a killer JM today.(read on for more details)

>Note that Liches and other "senênt" unlife must maintain some form of a
>life force. Hmmm...thinking about this, I'd guess that keeping a life
>force around aver death would require a separate vessel. This would
>require either Wizardry (DWCrav for you purists! :)) or Heka-Forging:>

>Vessel of Life Ritual (Grade 6-7)
> Time: Special
> Area: A Bokle or other vessel
> Distance: preky close...
> Other Costs: Plenty I would assume...(I'll think about this more)
> E/F/M: Okay, this ritual takes at least a few days, since the creator
>must essenâlly make it him/herself. (has anyone seen a female lich
>anywhere?) The creaôn process helps to akune the "aura" of the persona
>to the item (kind of a mys^cal ê there).
> This bokle is where the life force of the soon-to-be Lich is kept. The
>^me of its duraôn is rela^ve to the Heka of the EP (I'm assuming the
>persona would be evil!). I would assume that it could not be permanent
>(unless other, more complex Heka Forgings are used, of course!). Perhaps
>a single point of Heka per week would suce: Think about it, the average
>NASTY EP has to have a couple thousand Heka laying around, as well as some
>Reservoirs, Rituals of Concentraôn and the like...

I like the idea and concept

>Once the Bokle is done, it's ^me for:

>Sustain Lifeforce Ritual (Grade 8 Black Wizardry)
> Time: Eternal (Dependent on bokle, see below)

> Area: The caster and his bokle
> Distance: Not too far!
> Other Costs: Whatever...
> E/F/M: This is the Cas^ng which actually kills the EP. Every point of
>Physical TRAIT possessed by the EP becomes Magickal Armor Factors for the
>Vessel. The Liche's base Physical then becomes his old, living Mental
>TRAIT. This can be increased later, thru some other to-be-created
>Cas^ng. This ritual, which would last a Long Time (say, weeks), actually
>takes the life force from the body of the EP and transfers it to the
>Vessel which was created with the former Cas^ng. There needs to be a
>Vessel, of course, or this won't work.
> This ritual allows the Liche to exist for as long as there is life in
>the Vessel. Other Cas^ngs would probably enable the EP to increase the
>protecôn and Structual Capacity of the Vessel (since he/she really would
>not like the thing to be busted).>

Also, they provide
>a nivy story-line-capable Weakness for the otherwise hard to beat undead!
>Imagine the players' suspense when they nd out the hard way that bea^ng
>the creature in a one on one bakle would not be possible, and that they
>have to nd a way to get a hold of its "Life's Bokle" and nd a way to
>destroy it...

Yeah, like it

(MJW)
>I personally disagree with you on this point. If we dene a lich as a
>formerly powerful and now s^ll powerful priest/dweomercraever (see my
>rst post) then creaôn should not be possible at all.

One of the things I admired about Mythus Magick when it came out,
was the clear guidelines for characters choosing to make a pact and ac^vate
Sorcery and Witch crav. I did not admire the nature of it at all, I
certainly am not interested in playing or JMing for such a persona, yet the
manual made clear how this wicked act could be done. Similarly, I do not
run evil campaigns and if persona suddenly became evil and decided to become
a liche, then I would allow him to do so, then make him an EP and invite the
player to design a new persona, or take his creature somewhere else. What
should or should not happen is not the point here. Rahotep was a persona,
yet (depending on player acôns) it is possible for him to become a minor
deity! While think this is really just to extreme for any enjoyable
campaign, I think it serves as an example to the possibiliês.
Back to topic.
I wrote about liches because I have an enslaved henchperson of a gure of
former great power who has been killed, and will try to restore her master
in a form more powerful than before to both return him(this was a loyal
follower) and free herself. While she won't be of sucient ability to do

everything, she has signicant connscôns and could make it work by
blackmail etc.
Then she gives her new master a nasty surprise.
Well, the whole hook here is that the HPs will be a pawn in her powerplays,
sending them on

a grand quest to discover the secrets of lichdom which were codied by an
ancient and evil civilizaôn long ago, involving the combaing/outwiing
of at least a liche or two and thier minions(how about seriously decayed
liches and demiliches instead)
of course she would decieve the Heroic Personas into believing it was of
another nature.

helping her assemble the required components and gains access to the needed
informaôn, then will be nally expended/sacriced as the rst akackers
against her present hated master. This newly unalive master will then
weaken the already weakened lord un^l he is incapable of resistance, then
feed on his being to gain as much of his power as he can.(Like Rahotep, want
him capable of draining akributes, etc. Geez, black
wizards/sorcerors/necromancers are twisted!)

((((But with all this power he must have somekind of requirement for life,
like trac in larva with diabolic en^tes to sustain his power, and he
would ul^mately become the pawn of these en^ês, based on his dependence
on them for his existence,and will be used to fulll thier desire to
enter/control the world and its peoples.
WHEW! Now thats enough to one busy for a while. But I digress)))

Or so the necromancer(tess??) hopes. If my intrepid Heroes are wise they
may discover how they are being used, turn the lords against each other
prematurely, and nish o whoever is lev standing. If not they will be
cut to bloody shreds or blasted into nothingness.
Hmmmmmmmmm. Now theres an idea. (Hey does anyone think my game sounds like
fun?? Sure you do);) Yeah, right, sounds like good way to lose friends

Now if a JM wishes
>to create one for use in his adventure that is a dierent maker as a JM
>has access to divine and/or demonic gaming intervenôn and powers. I also
>think that this could create problems with deceased HP's wan^ng to come
>back as liches. In short a lich is a VERY powerful creature that is
>currently and should remain in this game system out of the HP's ability to
>create.

>
>Jesse
>
>(planning on being here the rest of the summer! :))

Alriiiiighty then!

>True. And as stated before, these things are tough, why do they always need
>them. One Lich might be enough (or too much) for a whole party. The
>tradiônal "sovening-up" approach of EGS may not be appropriate,
>depending on the experience and ampatability of your players.

I wasn't planning on using them together. Combat tends to be quite deadly,
and melee is not all that common in my campaign. I was thinking of a fully
human Necromancer, who would not be quite so hard to defeat as a lich(but
there always is cheat death isn't there? heheheheh-one of my favorite spells
in all of Mythus Magick)

>>suck, as far as duraôn goes. Its true that the caster can animate corpses
>>and skeletons for long periods of ^me, but real undead, like necropires and
>>prevents the accumulaôn of armies of undead, but it s^ll kinda sucks. I
>undead.

>>The whole thing is that "real" undead are not pushovers, and just as
>>mortals
>>can't up and create living creatures one can't create Undead creatures that
>>easilly.

>Keep in mind, too, that Zombies and Skeletons, which can be animated for
>months at a ^me, do not suer Hit Locaôn rolls and thus all damage they
>sustain is Non-Vital. In fact, Piercing akacks only do1 point plus PMPow
>bonus (or something like that). With a P TRAIT of 80, these suckers are
>harder to kill than a demon in that way.

>And that is without a necromancer puing armor on themx

Only high numbers of them would help in my combat system. The slowness of
the zombie makes them rancid-mince-meat to a well trained barbarian
warrior(except that barbarians fear the supernatural (evil grin)
counterquirk! (yeah! evil grin)
Armor would protect them but slow them even more(Mythus 313).
Skeletons are quicker, but would be defeated handily in a one on one bakle
with a warrior type(unless a piercing only weapon was used)
Speed and skill are the most important factors in the house system I use,
both of which these unalive creaôns do not possess at a great level.(and
rightly so)

What I am thinking of is something like a bodyguard ghoul/ghast/zombie.
Sort of a golem for necromancers(except much more frightening). I would

expect this to be a long and drawn out process(in the weeks to maybe months
range) for one creaôn, and involve lengthy ritual, stealing/sacricing
lifeforce from something to power/animate/feed the creaôn, but creaôn
that would last for a long ^me.

The Symbiote(coming to a store near you, watch for it!)

P.S.-I should be geing Aria Roleplaying within the next few weeks!!!

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 02:28:23 -0700

PPS-Everything I wrote is copyright of me, but who cares, right?(my stu is
not genre specic so I own it all except what everyone else said, right
Steve? right)

Yeah I'm paranoid and biker, so who asked you?

Symbiosis is beau^ful thing except when your host dies

thats my failed akempt at a Deep Thought

goodnight (with visions of liches and demiliches dancing in my head
uuuuuuuugggghhh, now theres a scary thought, what I really meant was Kell^c
moonlight and The Hunt, naaahhhh, cool but too scary, okay, visions
of.....well...... I beker not share it, but it certainly is pleasant) ;)

PPPS lets get something going with Kell^c stu too

PPPPS Loren, if you're here, I just want to say hi (and lets talk about
doing the city of Ys, if you feel like it)

Goodnight all

(aaaargg, heres the sig)

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 08:39:37 -0400

>PPPPS Loren, if you're here, I just want to say hi (and lets talk about
>doing the city of Ys, if you feel like it)

Loren's not subscribed to my knowledge. I just contacted him by E-Mail
myself. Don's really the "head contact" of the project.

Keep in mind one thing people...

If Loren does decide "yea" on this, he will remove all DJ game stu from
the module, in essense making it "generic", so we'd have to re-build the
stats and features on our own. That might make the project less valuble to
some.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 23:46:42 -0400
From: Loren Wiseman <GDWGAMES@AOL.COM>
Subject: Chris Calvert

> PPPPS Loren, if you're here, I just want to say hi (and lets talk
> about doing the city of Ys, if you feel like it)

Hi Back atcha
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 00:52:07 -0500

More late night comments....

>>You were wondering how to create a lich. Well, let's think about it for
>>a while. It is fairly easy to come up with Cas^ngs, and simple enough to
>>s^ck some ritualis^c stu along with it... let me think on it (if no
>>one else wants to do so) for a couple days and get back to you all....this
>>may come in handy for my campaign...
>
>Sounds good to me.

I think the best way to procede now is to create the beasê. I agree
whole heartedly that any HP trying this is no longer an HP, thus the
cas^ngs sorta become mute (Eventhough I nd them really neat ;)). IMHO
one of the cas^ngs necessary should be IX or X to prevent imbalance.

>I am basically trying to dene whatkeeps the liche in a fully funcônal
>state(energy provided from the Nether plane(my current prime choice), or
>larva(diabolical lemures and strong possiblility since lichdom was cited as
>diabolical in nature), or something else.
>
>I like the black wizardry requirements ideas, and the soul object part
>>Black Wizardry is denitely the way to go. However, Necromancy would be
>>a side requirement... :)

This sounds very reasonable. I really like the vessel Idea (stated
previously) as a weakness. It would be fun to see the party look for clues
and try to destroy the vessel, all the while avoiding the Lich (or escaping
he heh heh)!

>>Note that Liches and other "senênt" unlife must maintain some form of a
>>life force. Hmmm...thinking about this, I'd guess that keeping a life
>>force around aver death would require a separate vessel. This would
>>require either Wizardry (DWCrav for you purists! :)) or Heka-Forging:>
>
>>Vessel of Life Ritual (Grade 6-7)
>> Time: Special
.....
>I like the idea and concept
>
>>Once the Bokle is done, it's ^me for:
>
>>Sustain Lifeforce Ritual (Grade 8 Black Wizardry)
>> Time: Eternal (Dependent on bokle, see below)
>> Area: The caster and his bokle
>> Distance: Not too far!
>> Other Costs: Whatever...

These are great. I certainly like the idea, but won't the greater powers
get a likle mied at mortals becoming immortal by using a 81 STEEP (or
less if FP)?
Again, we may not need to overdo this. I love the idea of having a Lich as
a major plot line, EP, nemisis, or beasê. The cas^ngs do not have to be
specic because the only thing the HPs should come up with is the type,
level, and areas. Anyway those curious HP looking into divinaôns or
visions of such VILE nature nd themselves suering from a fate of lotsa
Spiritual Damage or Big^me Target Syndrome. (i think I got that evil JM
feeling...;)

> Also, they provide
>>a nivy story-line-capable Weakness for the otherwise hard to beat undead!
>>Imagine the players' suspense when they nd out the hard way that bea^ng
>>the creature in a one on one bakle would not be possible, and that they
>>have to nd a way to get a hold of its "Life's Bokle" and nd a way to
>>destroy it...
>
>Yeah, like it

An enthusias^c thumbs up!

> One of the things I admired about Mythus Magick when it came out,
>was the clear guidelines for characters choosing to make a pact and ac^vate
>Sorcery and Witch crav. I did not admire the nature of it at all, I
>certainly am not interested in playing or JMing for such a persona, yet the
>manual made clear how this wicked act could be done. Similarly, I do not
>run evil campaigns and if persona suddenly became evil and decided to become
>a liche, then I would allow him to do so, then make him an EP and invite the
>player to design a new persona, or take his creature somewhere else. What
>should or should not happen is not the point here. Rahotep was a persona,
>yet (depending on player acôns) it is possible for him to become a minor
>deity! While think this is really just to extreme for any enjoyable
>campaign, I think it serves as an example to the possibiliês.

O the topic... wouldn't it be neat to make a pact with an Angel?

Back to topic.
>I wrote about liches because I have an enslaved henchperson of a gure of
.
.
.
>enter/control the world and its peoples.
>WHEW! Now thats enough to one busy for a while. But I digress)))

Yikes. You are *the* EVIL JM. ;0 (kidding)

>Or so the necromancer(tess??) hopes. If my intrepid Heroes are wise they
>may discover how they are being used, turn the lords against each other
>prematurely, and nish o whoever is lev standing. If not they will be
>cut to bloody shreds or blasted into nothingness.
>Hmmmmmmmmm. Now theres an idea. (Hey does anyone think my game sounds like
>fun?? Sure you do);) Yeah, right, sounds like good way to lose friends

Goka love intreage (sp?) keep 'em challenged!

> Now if a JM wishes
>>to create one for use in his adventure that is a dierent maker as a JM
>>has access to divine and/or demonic gaming intervenôn and powers. I also
>>think that this could create problems with deceased HP's wan^ng to come
>>back as liches. In short a lich is a VERY powerful creature that is

>>currently and should remain in this game system out of the HP's ability to
>>create.
>>Jesse
>>
>>(planning on being here the rest of the summer! :))
>
>Alriiiiighty then!
>

Ahhh..... yeah. I once let a player roll in the EGS to come back as a
revenent and nearly started a very vicious trend. In the Mythus system
with Joss...this can be a reallyundesirable type of thing...if you catch my
driv. Keeps the HPs ouka the making lich loop.

>What I am thinking of is something like a bodyguard ghoul/ghast/zombie.
>Sort of a golem for necromancers(except much more frightening). I would
>expect this to be a long and drawn out process(in the weeks to maybe months
>range) for one creaôn, and involve lengthy ritual, stealing/sacricing
>lifeforce from something to power/animate/feed the creaôn, but creaôn
>that would last for a long ^me.

Sounds very reasonable. This is also a good idea for them to collect
knowledge on the weaknesses.

>P.S.-I should be geing Aria Roleplaying within the next few weeks!!!
>
>
>Chris Calvert
>
>calvert@ucla.edu

OOOOOOOOOOOO. I'm jealous. No such luck around here.

I look forward to seeing the stats and powers for the lich!

I hope my late night babbling has som^hing to oer....

AJ=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 11:50:42 -0400
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.93.960702013632.3269F-100000@lictor.acsu.bualo.edu>

I think Jesse's idea about the cas^ngs sounds preky good. However, I
would suggest that these cas^ngs be Specic Cas^ngs for each
individual being. That is to say, if I am a Black Dweomercraever, and I
come across the works of Jesse the Liche from when he was s^ll a mortal,
I can't just use his Cas^ngs to make myself into a Liche too. It might
help me to have his notes for crea^ng my own Liche creaôn cas^ng, but
I would have to make some serious k/s rolls and research in order to do
it. Making it a specic cas^ng also adds to the suspense of (Will it
REALLY work or am I about to die?!?!?)

Next come components. The frost of Hel's breath perhaps? Bodily uid
from a s^ll living Wyrm? (You want me to pee into WHAT?!?!?!?!?!)

Nothing ever has to be impossible. It's just that some things are very
very hard.

--Ryan Snead
rwsnea@birds.wm.edu
rsnead@patriot.net (preferred)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 12:33:42 -0400
Subject: Quesôn & Kobolds

I have a rules quesôn for you RMSS gurus...

This type of thing appears at several places in the rules, so I'll use a
specic example: Appendix A-4.1 (ghter) lists Weapon Group +20 (mong
others) as a profession bonus. Does this mean all Weapon Categories are at
+20, or that the player must choose one group? Another example is Appendix
A-4.3 (rogue) with Awareness Group +5.

On kobolds...

Someone menôned crea^ng a Kobold dungeon/complex. Sounds good to me--I
love "whipping a party's buk" with an inhabited hall, castle, or complex.
Not that I only run combats, but these sorts of seings oven lead to some
of the most exci^ng and memorable moments in FRP gaming--that and it's fun
to make a party run screaming to the exit : )

--/Nikodemus
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 05:45:15 PDT

I would say that only a FP DMCer (or PCFTer, if he were also a mage) could become a Lich.
Necromancy would be a helpful K/S, but not mandatory.

Dave=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 18:47:17 -0400


>O the topic... wouldn't it be neat to make a pact with an Angel?
>
>

Wouldn't that be a lesser Vow?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 20:03:39 -0400

--=====================_836443311==_

With some cri^que by Mike Philllips I have updated and corrected my
original Mys^c Vocaôn. Mike quite correctly pointed out that the Mys^c
was missing the Priestcraev and Religion K/S areas,which are included in
all other Mys^cism Vocaôns. I would like to express my appreciaôn for
his comments and suggesôns(some of which I even acted upon). Comments and
suggesôns are always welcome from any member of the MYTHUS list. In this
light I now present the new improved Mys^c Vocaôn.

Good gaming,
Michael John Weaver

--=====================_836443311==_
Content-Disposiôn: akachment; lename="MYST.TXT"

MYSTIC Vocaôn
(Spiritual Trait)

SEC range 5-9, SEC at start 6

First note that because of the high number of heka genera^ng K/S areas a HP must have a spiritual trait
of 91 or above to be a Mys^c. Priescraev and Religion are treated as one area for Spiritual Vocaôns.

K/S Areas

Mys^cism* 24 SP Cap

Divinaôn* 20 SP Cap

Astrology* 16 SM Cap

Herbalism* 16 SM Cap

Fortune-Telling* 16 SP Cap

Yoga* 16 SM Cap

Apotropaism* 12 (MM Cap + MR Cap x .5)



Magick* 12 MR Cap

Mul^versal Planes&Spheres 12 SP Cap


Priestcraev* 12 SM Cap

Religion* 12 SM Cap

Combat,HTH,non-lethal 8 (PM Cap + PN Cap x .5)

Games,Mental 8 MR Cap

History 8 MM Cap

Occul^sm 8 SM Cap

Phaeree Flora&Fuana 8 MM Cap

Handicrav/Handiworks 4 PN Cap

Travel 4 (PM Cap + PN Cap x .5)

Base STEEP 252

The true Mys^c is one that both foretells the future and oers advise as to what one should do to avoid
disaster or to enhance ones posi^ve outcomes.
The role of the Mys^c is a passive/defensive one. The Mys^c has no interest in performing exorcisms,
that role being lev to those who choose to specialize in situaôns already gone awry. The Mys^c can
oven be found in the employment of nobles and even on occassion in Royal courts working closely with
full pracôneer Dweomercraevers and Priests.


The author of this vocaôn releases it into the public domain.

--=====================_836443311==_-=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 19:09:18 -0500

>
>>O the topic... wouldn't it be neat to make a pact with an Angel?
>>
>>
>
>Wouldn't that be a lesser Vow?

I dunno? I guess I don't concider vows and pacts to be the same. The pact
appears to carry along with it certain loses of souls or other agreements
and has more power to back it up. I think I just answered my own quesôn
though. ;)

Though, I like the comparison.

AJ=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 20:04:27 -0500
Subject: Re: MYSTIC Vocaôn

>With some cri^que by Mike Philllips I have updated and corrected my
>original Mys^c Vocaôn. Mike quite correctly pointed out that the Mys^c
>was missing the Priestcraev and Religion K/S areas,which are included in
>all other Mys^cism Vocaôns. I would like to express my appreciaôn for
>his comments and suggesôns(some of which I even acted upon). Comments and
>suggesôns are always welcome from any member of the MYTHUS list. In this
>light I now present the new improved Mys^c Vocaôn.
>
>Good gaming,
>
>Akachment converted: Hard Disk:MYST.TXT (TEXT/kxt) (000023EE)

Where is this le? Forgive my ignorance.
this doesn't seem to convert on my computer. Could you send a typed out
version. I'm very interested.

Also I like your Vocaôn idea, but I no^ces the lack of social K/S areas
for coping with the Royal Court (besides Games mental) maybe Cult Palate?.
Also we have had some discussion on Astrology vs. Mys^cism where one is
the Eastern trend and the other the Western trend. Since you chose yoga, I
am assuming Eastern. If there is a avor for both, perhaps Astronomy
would be a welcome addiôn to interpret and assist Astrology. Appraisal
might also be helpful for choosing those ever important gems.

You may have already addressed these, but just my 2 bytes.

Keep up the good work.

AJ=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 21:15:34 -0700
Subject: Gone for a while

I have been abrubtly disconnected, and may not be back un^l the end of the
month(life as a symbiote, ehh?)

I'll be back.

Mike

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 00:25:39 -0400
From: Charles Hagenbuch <hagendaz@PROLOG.NET>
Subject: Holy shades of movie themes....

Hello list, or whoever's there...
I was just browsing through the Abyss rules that Lucifer came up
with, and found the following in a reply from Mike Phillips:

>Hmmmm..... I can see it now..... Exploring pyramid in AEgypt, and, aver
>crossing through an obviously Heka-empowered arch, the explorers nd
>themselves in the middle of this alien species that claimed to have created
>the AEgypâns -- would these be as the gods? (much like the Osirans, led
>by Horus, in the Pyramids of Mars, a Dr. Who episode) I can see the
>appplicaôns now -- *really* confusing the poor Priestcraevers by
>convincing them that their gods aren't gods (dierent universe), then
>returning them and the gods are once again gods :-)

Can anyone say, theme for the movie Stargate? I didn't see it myself, but
from everything that I heard, it basically ts except for the ^me
dierence here on earth.

This came to mind for 2 reasons. One, I just saw Independence Day, and
enjoyed it immensely. Two, and the reason I was browsing through Abyss,
is that I'm working with a friend on a science côn system, and was
looking for ideas. Its actually been played by our group, with great
results in fun, and recently preky decent game balance. I don't know if
it'll be posted, but I have permission to put all the rules on my web
site. I'll certainly no^fy the list as soon as anything goes up. I'll
say in advance, comments will be welcomed like Pepsi points to someone
needing a Harrier jet :)

Happy Independence day, all! (damn!, that was a good movie!)

Charles Hagenbuch

P.S. This is fast turning much longer than I intended, but since I'm
pos^ng...Has anyone on the list read Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, by Tad
Williams, or The Wars of Light and Shadow (Curse of the MistWraith, Ships
of Merior, ...) by Janny Wurts? I thought both of them were incredible
worlds, immensely inspiring for fantasy campaigns.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 00:02:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Quesôn & Kobolds

>I have a rules quesôn for you RMSS gurus...

>This type of thing appears at several places in the rules, so I'll use a
>specic example: Appendix A-4.1 (ghter) lists Weapon Group +20 (mong
>others) as a profession bonus. Does this mean all Weapon Categories are at
>+20, or that the player must choose one group? Another example is Appendix
>A-4.3 (rogue) with Awareness Group +5.

When the profession bonus lists a group, I take that to mean that
en^re Category. So that in the case of the ghter, it represents that
characters natural abiliês for weapons of all sorts.

BIG d

P.S. I am glad to see that I am not the only RMSS fan in this list!
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 02:02:56 -0400

At 08:04 PM 7/3/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>With some cri^que by Mike Philllips I have updated and corrected my
>>original Mys^c Vocaôn. Mike quite correctly pointed out that the Mys^c
>>was missing the Priestcraev and Religion K/S areas,which are included in
>>all other Mys^cism Vocaôns. I would like to express my appreciaôn for
>>his comments and suggesôns(some of which I even acted upon). Comments and
>>suggesôns are always welcome from any member of the MYTHUS list. In this
>>light I now present the new improved Mys^c Vocaôn.
>>
>>Good gaming,
>>Michael John Weaver
>>
>>Akachment converted: Hard Disk:MYST.TXT (TEXT/kxt) (000023EE)
>
>Where is this le? Forgive my ignorance.
>this doesn't seem to convert on my computer. Could you send a typed out
>version. I'm very interested.

No forgiveness necessary I had to look for these myself they went straight
to my main index on Netscape. I would help you but my computer skills are
far from expert.
I will send a typed out version or at least try.

>Also I like your Vocaôn idea, but I no^ces the lack of social K/S areas
>for coping with the Royal Court (besides Games mental) maybe Cult Palate?.

There's an idea(Cultured Palate) I'll consider it,it could possibly replace
Travel which I see as a Gypsy thing anyway. This Vocaôn is vey much a work
in progress(at least that's what I consider it). I am hoping by pos^ng
number 4 its as perfect as it can get or at least needs to be. Of course
E^queke/Social Graces is a universal K/S area.

>Also we have had some discussion on Astrology vs. Mys^cism where one is
>the Eastern trend and the other the Western trend. Since you chose yoga, I
>am assuming Eastern.

Well the truth here is it takes into account both. My own personal belief
system is a mixture of Chrisânity and Shinto. I believe diverse cultures
and beliefs can be intermixed and oven both systems are beker for it. The
glossary in MYTHUS pg.406(I think) denes MYSTIC as one steeped in
Mys^cism,Herbalism,Yoga,and Apotrapaism(probably out of order) this seems
to have a great Eastern inuence. However,in the real world I would be hard
pressed to dene George Anderson,who lives on long island, as anything
other than a Mys^c and he is clearly of western heritage. Anyway all that
is to explain why I include both areas. Well that and 3 of the 4 Mys^cism
vocaôns include both and I am trying to maintain game consistency.

If there is a avor for both, perhaps Astronomy
>would be a welcome addiôn to interpret and assist Astrology. Appraisal
>might also be helpful for choosing those ever important gems.

Both of these area would help the HP,however Mys^cism already gives one
some knowledge for choosing stones and gems pg.191 "...The mys^c will know
the proper ones to use in a given situaôn(DR "Hard")." I see these as wise
choices on the players part for his bonus K/S areas but not as a given for
the Vocaôn.
>
>You may have already addressed these, but just my 2 bytes.

Thank you for your two bytes. I'll post with the correcôn of Travel being
replaced by Cultured Palate.
>
>Keep up the good work.
>
>AJ>
>Good gaming,
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 02:15:35 -0400
Subject: Liches...

On Wed, 3 Jul 1996, John Schmidt wrote:
>
> I think the best way to procede now is to create the beasê. I agree
> whole heartedly that any HP trying this is no longer an HP, thus the
> cas^ngs sorta become mute (Eventhough I nd them really neat ;)). IMHO
> one of the cas^ngs necessary should be IX or X to prevent imbalance.

I would denitely agree that HP's should NEVER be allowed to do this!
This sort of act kind of eliminates the Heroic from "Heroic Persona."
However, it might be fun to have black wizards research the informaôn.

I dentely DO NOT agree (not yelling just stressing the point, no
oense) that the nal Cas^ngs should be IX, and most denitely not in
the name of "balance." Just because you don't want players to have the
goodies, don't put a power/Cas^ng/Item so far out of reach. It must be
thought of logically. I don't have Mythus Magick on me, but I'd be
willing to be that in using the Specic Cas^ng rules you wouldn't end up
with such a high Grade. In making it up on the spot, I picked Grade 7
because that's "cuing edge" knowledge level.

I have two other problems, which may be general in nature. Why do people
worry so much about balance. The only thing I can think of is that they
are unable to control, or have just plain power-monger gamers. My group
of friends would not generally be tempted (except for one HP, who has been
highly developed over a couple years into someone who just might be
interested by lich-dom) to waste a game in such a way. With regards to
Lichdom, I denitely don't think it should require the greatest of all
black wizards to accomplish, par^cularly with the help of a dark power or
two along the way... :) By the way, I would add many years and millions of
BUC's to the cost of becoming a lich, in the name of role-playing and
logically based conclusions...

Which kind of brings me to my other point: How many of you out here
actually have HP's which possess K/S Area STEEP at the 70+ range? I
personally had one Cavalier with a 70+ Riding, and the aforemenôned HP
who has a Conjuraôn of about 72. I feel that not many people ought to
be pioneers in their elds, unless, of course, that's the way your
campaign is based. As many of you know, I use all the star^ng STEEPs for
HP's at 75%. This makes it a lot harder for HP's to achieve superior
STEEP levels, unless they forgo *any* development for a single-minded
purpose (which is possible as long as it's worked into the HP background,
personality, etc). I have, in the mean^me, included another opônal
rule: Increasing STEEP Costs:

It had always seemed a likle weird to me that any HP could increase
his/her STEEP as easily from 1 to 10 as from 80 to 90. Why would Mythus
include a sort-of-geometric increase for ATTRIBUTE increase, yet follow a
straight-line linear increase for STEEP? This is not quite consistent. :)
So, I've xed it.

An HP pays the normal STEEP costs (of 1:1 for primary TRAIT K/S Areas,
etc), un^l the STEEP in the K/S Area passes the CATEGORY level under
which it is based. For instance, an HP with a 55 Mnemonic can improve all
her Foreign Language K/S Areas to that point at the original costs.
Beyond then, the costs increase, at a rate of 1 STEEP per 10% of the
CATEGORY. In my example, said HP (lets say she's a wizard--Mental based)
would need 2 AP's per STEEP from 56-61 (the next 6 points, or 10% of 55),
3 AP's per STEEP from 62-67, and so on, un^l at a level of about 86 she
would need 6 AP's. Why she'd want an 86 in another language? Who cares,
it's just an example. Of course, the limit of TRAIT s^ll applies.

And that's it. Comments?

While I'm at it, why the heck are Capacity scores used for determining my
star^ng STEEP, for example, in Combat, Hand Weapons? What the heck does
my overall potenâl for increase have to do with my current ability? I'd
based it all o Pow and Spd, myself.

And why, for logic's sake, can a persona actually INCREASE his maximum
levels??? If I have a PMCap of 20, how can that be increased?? I thought
that was the absolute maximum that my muscles can handle. Who knows?

Oh, and aver HP generaôn, changes in ATTRIBUTE scores don't aect
STEEP levels, do they? I wouldn't think so but I don't remember at the
moment...

Maybe, if a persona actually reached a Capacity (with say, PMPow equalling
PMCap), then maybe he should be able to increase each one, one at a ^me,
for extra cost...

Whew!! THat was quite the rant. Sorry, but answer those concerns and
I'll be your friend. :)

Jesse

("Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.")

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 02:22:24 -0400
In-Reply-To: <960704000221.12d7f@VAX1.BEMIDJI.MSUS.EDU>

> When the profession bonus lists a group, I take that to mean that
> en^re Category. So that in the case of the ghter, it represents that
> characters natural abiliês for weapons of all sorts.
>
> BIG d
>
> P.S. I am glad to see that I am not the only RMSS fan in this list!

Well, you're right on that, but I'm curious: did Mythus-L change its name
to Mythus/RMSS-L?

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 00:59:44 -0700
Subject: Re: Liches...

False Alarm.

I will be here s^ll.

But I ^red and I'll write later.

Mike

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 04:05:15 -0400

MYSTIC Vocaôn
(Spiritual Trait)

SEC range: 5-9, SEC at start 6.

First note that because of the high number of Heka genera^ng K/S areas
an HP must have a spiritual trait of 91 or above to be a Mys^c.
Priestcraev and Religion are treated as one area for Spiritual Vocaôns.

K/S Areas:

Mys^cism* 24 SP Cap

Divinaôn* 20 SP Cap

Astrology* 16 SM Cap

Herbalism* 16 SM Cap

Fortune-Telling* 16 SP Cap

Yoga* 16 SM Cap

Apotropaism* 12 (MM Cap + MR Cap x .5)

Foreign Language (choice) 12 MM Cap

Foreign Language (choice) 12 MM Cap

Magick* 12 MR Cap

Mul^versal Planes & Spheres 12 SP Cap


Priestcrav* 12 SM Cap

Religion* 12 SM Cap

Combat, HTH, non-lethal 8 (PM Cap + PN Cap x .5)

Games, Mental 8 MR Cap

Metaphysics* 8 SM Cap

Occul^sm* 8 SM Cap

Phaeree Flora & Fauna 8 MM Cap

Cultured Palate 4 PN Cap

Handicrav/Handiworks 4 PN Cap

Base STEEP: 252

The true Mys^c is one that both foretells the future and oers advice
as to what one should do to avoid disaster or to enhance ones posi^ve outcomes.
interest in performing exorcisms, that role being lev to those who choose
to specialize in situaôns already gone awry. The Mys^c can oven be
found in the employment of nobles and even on occasion in Royal courts
working closely with full pracôner Dweomercraevers and Priests.


The author of this vocaôn releases it freely into the public domain.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 05:17:43 -0400

One aw in logic is that the lich spell should be lower in grade because it
should be in the range of a person with STEEP 70...

Wrong.

No maker how skilled a persona is, there are /always/ dicult and taxing
spells. Lichdom is a very powerful spell. It involves a form of
near-immortality. Just because a persona has 70+ STEEP doesn't mean that
the cas^ng should be of just "hard" rank. (Also remember hard at that level
has a 70% success rate). I can denately see it being a grade IX or X
cas^ng. There should be many failures. Using the theory that grade 7 is
"cuing edge" is wrong--why are there higher grades, then? That's the true
cuing edge! Don't confuse skill level with spell level.

Also, cas^ng ^me for such rituals would be long and tedious. I'd say
cas^ng ^me for the ritual should take months or even a few years.

Finally--why so many comparisons with AD&D? We shouldn't try to analyze the
deniôn of Lich from one game system.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 05:40:18 -0400

>Whew!! THat was quite the rant. Sorry, but answer those concerns and
>I'll be your friend. :)

>Jesse

Gee, Jesse, I never knew you were *easy*!
;-)

Seriously, here's my opinion on liches and all that:
1. Back before there was Mythus I played a variety of things, one of which
was Rolemaster (set in Bard Game's Atlan^s). In that campaign, the group
broke into an old tomb and (among other things) stole a crown from a lich.
Since the crown was a PP mul^plier and did other things, one of the
characters took to wearing it. In a subsequent combat, the poor guy had a
leg chopped o by a crit and was in danger of bleeding to death, so the
other fellows took a pumpkin vine and akached it to his stump. (See, they
knew the pumpkins were weird because when they pulled one o a vine earlier
it started gushing blood, and the eld belonged to a powerful sorceror,
and--but that's another story.) It did mend to his leg and stopped the
bleeding, but he also died anyway of a subsequent wound. At that ^me the
crown exerted its inner power and put the dead liche's spirit into the
now-dead player's body and he rose as the dreaded "Pumpkinfoot The Lich."
The others barely managed to get back into their ying ship in ^me and
sail away. Lesson: players don't get to be liches. Liches are evil
incarnate, and as soon as a player becomes a lich they become an NPC (or
whatever). Period. So even if a player wanted to become a lich I wouldn't
let them because I don't think any of my friends is evil enough to play a
lich as they really would act.

2. Of my group of HPs, there are only two surviving original players (well,
really one; the other died but was brought back via a fortuitous Alchemical
Operaôn). We started playing in 1992 and as of now the highest STEEP is in
the low 60s. I think 70's STEEPs are not out of the quesôn at all, so long
as AP awards are appropirately handed out. To my mind, it is OK for the
players to have these pioneer-level STEEPS because it is going to be their
job to save the AErth from The Accursed, and they will need all the skill
they can get.

3. I don't really have a problem with the STEEP advancement process the way
it is, though I did force the Dweomercraver and Alchemist to make new
Specic Cas^ngs and hand them over to the Guild before they would be
allowed to advance. It got them acquainted with the rules for doing that and
simulated the professsional obligaôns such personas would be expected to
full. I even sent one of them a leker asking their HP to come teach at
the Druidic college as a guest speaker! She declined but was akered. I'd
rather control HP progress that way.

4. I think Caps are used for star^ng STEEP in most cases because it is just
a handy benchmark for guring out things. I look at a Cap as a sort of
combined potenâl benchmark and as a "resistance", e.g. the defender in a
round of HTH Non-Lethal combat uses that against an aggressor's STEEP in the
contest. But of course I believe in make some playabiliity concessions that
aren't based on logic, if they don't stretch my imaginaôn out of whack. As
for increasing the Caps, I was a likle puzzled at rst, but then I
remembered when I was studying marâl arts I did increase my capacity to do
certain things, like stretch for example, or hold my breath. Of course, I've
lost a lot of that since I stopped, and if you REALLY wanted to be realis^c
you'd force the HPs to keep ac^ve or start losing points from their Caps as
they turn into couch potatoes.

5. Yes, aver HP generaôn changes in ATTRIBUTES have no eect on STEEPs.
I don't remember where in the book it states this, but it does.

So that is my input. Are we friends yet?

DOn
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 10:26:10 -0400

Subject: Was Liches, now it's not.

>I have two other problems, which may be general in nature. Why do people
>worry so much about balance. The only thing I can think of is that they
>are unable to control, or have just plain power-monger gamers.

I agree. I'm developing a roleplaying game where the players not only pick
thier skill levels, they actually dene thier own skills. As far as I can
tell, the only use for a predened skill list is game ballance and game
ballence is only a concern if either the GM or the players are inexperienced.

>It had always seemed a likle weird to me that any HP could increase
>his/her STEEP as easily from 1 to 10 as from 80 to 90. Why would Mythus
>include a sort-of-geometric increase for ATTRIBUTE increase, yet follow a
>straight-line linear increase for STEEP? This is not quite consistent. :)
>So, I've xed it.

*jesse's rule snipped here*

This is almost what I've been looking for. I like the idea, it's just more
math (and there is enough of that in Mythus already).

>While I'm at it, why the heck are Capacity scores used for determining my
>star^ng STEEP, for example, in Combat, Hand Weapons? What the heck does
>my overall potenâl for increase have to do with my current ability? I'd
>based it all o Pow and Spd, myself.

Yup, this always bothered me too. I might just shiv it all over to Pow and
Spd too. I already double the AP and Time cost to increase Cap levels (they
are your max potenâl, right?)

Oh, and another thing, how relevant is SMSpd anyway?

Later,

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 10:26:18 -0400
Subject: Caps and Pows

As
>for increasing the Caps, I was a likle puzzled at rst, but then I
>remembered when I was studying marâl arts I did increase my capacity to do
>certain things, like stretch for example, or hold my breath. Of course, I've
>lost a lot of that since I stopped, and if you REALLY wanted to be realis^c
>you'd force the HPs to keep ac^ve or start losing points from their Caps as
>they turn into couch potatoes.

My 2 cents:

I think what you are talking about is Pow. Before you studied marâl arts,
your body was funcôning at a level less than you capacity. As you
trained, you Pow increased (perhaps close to you Cap level). If you had
con^nued training, you may have hit a point where you could become no more
exable (you Cap). It may be hummanly possible to contort your body more
(like being double jointed) but to achive that (i.e. increase you Cap beyond
its star^ng level) would take, IMHO, a huge amount of VERY dedicated training.

An example:
There are two people siing on a couch, watching T.V. One is a 5'1" man
with toothpick arms and spindly, creaky legs. The other is a 6'7" woman who
weighs about 220 pounds. Both of them have been siing on the couch for a
year, ea^ng potatoe chips and watching Bugs Bunny reruns. The man would
have a PMCap of about 10, the woman about 20. Thier Pows would be much the
same however, about 9. If they both desided to start exercising, the man
would only get a bit stronger before his Pow equaled Cap, his body just
doesn't have enough muscle mass to improve. The woman however, could become
monsterously strong before hiing her Cap.

But on second thought, It might not be a bad idea to use Cap for star^ng
STEEP anyway and use Pow later in Jesse's Increasing STEEP rule.

Later,

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 11:11:47 +0100
From: Tom Harrison <blusponj@BLKBOX.COM>

>Finally--why so many comparisons with AD&D? We shouldn't try to analyze the
>deniôn of Lich from one game system.
>==================
>John R. Troy (JRT)

Considering there aren't too many interpetaôns of the lich going around,
I'm not surprised people keep bringing up the EGS. Doesn't Rolemaster have
rules for a Lich? They have rules for everything else! :) Also, whatever
happened to that lich post several months ago. Somebody dened a few
types of liches for the Mythus game, kinduv following the vein set by
Vampires (Preternatural, Supernatural, etc.). Someone might want to repost
that to give use something tangible to work with.

Tom

Food for thought:

Tequila without salt is like love without kisses.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 11:05:52 -0500

Happy Independence Day!

In responce:

>I dentely DO NOT agree (not yelling just stressing the point, no
>oense) that the nal Cas^ngs should be IX, and most denitely not in
>the name of "balance." Just because you don't want players to have the
>goodies, don't put a power/Cas^ng/Item so far out of reach. It must be
>thought of logically. I don't have Mythus Magick on me, but I'd be
>willing to be that in using the Specic Cas^ng rules you wouldn't end up
>with such a high Grade. In making it up on the spot, I picked Grade 7
>because that's "cuing edge" knowledge level.

just opinions and JMing style... no oence taken. My friends players are
planners and strategists into making and nding their own "goodies." Part
of this is rule interpretaôn. For example, while playing the Bloodstone
Wars (EGS) we used a modied batllesystem with spell combat. (I was just a
player) The one side had a wand of polymorphing, so he found some willing
lackies and created 20 (or so) Dragons to come join the fray. The other
side, in an appropriate responce, used mul^ple Druid's call lightning, 3
shambling mounds, and Control monster. This is one example. (note: this
is only used as an example and has been resolved) Our group is concerned
about balance because what may appear to be a rela^vely complex situalôn
can become impossible very quickly. Using the situaôn above, the
baklesystem was not so nearly as interes^ng as the akacks of the 200 v
mounds vs. the Dragons. Which was ok for some of the players, but others
just became lost in the chaos. We try to keep things somewhat is balance
to keep things interes^ng for everyone. If I have a preistcraver who can
create any K/S area on the spot and beef it up, do all the others just play
side rail? For this reason, we have no FP. Everyone get s a peice of the
spotlight.

>I have two other problems, which may be general in nature. Why do people
>worry so much about balance. The only thing I can think of is that they
>are unable to control, or have just plain power-monger gamers. My group
>of friends would not generally be tempted (except for one HP, who has been
>highly developed over a couple years into someone who just might be
>interested by lich-dom) to waste a game in such a way.

Guess I touched that already. Sorta the Soapbox thing. :{

With regards to
>Lichdom, I denitely don't think it should require the greatest of all
>black wizards to accomplish, par^cularly with the help of a dark power or
>two along the way... :) By the way, I would add many years and millions of
>BUC's to the cost of becoming a lich, in the name of role-playing and
>logically based conclusions...

I like Newton's comment. Sould probably be a FP. I like your limitaôns
of $ and ^me.

>Which kind of brings me to my other point: How many of you out here
>actually have HP's which possess K/S Area STEEP at the 70+ range? I
>personally had one Cavalier with a 70+ Riding, and the aforemenôned HP
>who has a Conjuraôn of about 72. I feel that not many people ought to
>be pioneers in their elds, unless, of course, that's the way your
>campaign is based. As many of you know, I use all the star^ng STEEPs for
>HP's at 75%. This makes it a lot harder for HP's to achieve superior
>STEEP levels, unless they forgo *any* development for a single-minded
>purpose (which is possible as long as it's worked into the HP background,
>personality, etc). I have, in the mean^me, included another opônal
>rule: Increasing STEEP Costs:

Yes, we agree. we use those opônal rules to keep the game *balanced.*
Our current campaign has been going for nearly 4 years. Many mistakes were
made, but for the sake of roleplaying HPs we enjoy we just kept going. In
my party ( In this group I'm a player) we have many specialized ghters
who have speciallized STEEPs of over 90 (one has Combat unspeciallized at
101!) A prest with religion and Preist over 70, A Mage with DWCing and
Magick near 80, etc... Aver ^me it is bound to happen. The players are
great problem solvers and tend to specialize in separate areas. We are now
in the planning stages of a new campaign to implement these opôn rules.
But these rules, like the opônal ones you using, are to keep the game
balanced.

>It had always seemed a likle weird to me that any HP could increase
>his/her STEEP as easily from 1 to 10 as from 80 to 90. Why would Mythus
>include a sort-of-geometric increase for ATTRIBUTE increase, yet follow a
>straight-line linear increase for STEEP? This is not quite consistent. :)
>So, I've xed it.

Agreed.

>An HP pays the normal STEEP costs (of 1:1 for primary TRAIT K/S Areas,
>etc), un^l the STEEP in the K/S Area passes the CATEGORY level under
>which it is based. For instance, an HP with a 55 Mnemonic can improve all
>her Foreign Language K/S Areas to that point at the original costs.
>Beyond then, the costs increase, at a rate of 1 STEEP per 10% of the
>CATEGORY. In my example, said HP (lets say she's a wizard--Mental based)
>would need 2 AP's per STEEP from 56-61 (the next 6 points, or 10% of 55),
>3 AP's per STEEP from 62-67, and so on, un^l at a level of about 86 she
>would need 6 AP's. Why she'd want an 86 in another language? Who cares,
>it's just an example. Of course, the limit of TRAIT s^ll applies.
>
>And that's it. Comments?

We are now using a chart which is similar, but I have found it hard to do
with new groups who may nd the game a bit overwhelming to begin. So I'll
implement it at a later date.

>While I'm at it, why the heck are Capacity scores used for determining my
>star^ng STEEP, for example, in Combat, Hand Weapons? What the heck does
>my overall potenâl for increase have to do with my current ability? I'd
>based it all o Pow and Spd, myself.
>
>And why, for logic's sake, can a persona actually INCREASE his maximum
>levels??? If I have a PMCap of 20, how can that be increased?? I thought
>that was the absolute maximum that my muscles can handle. Who knows?

good logical argument. To be Devil's advocate (or is that Lucifer?),
perhaps magic could raise caps, or if a person condiôns to that cap
through rigorous training.... I guess I see the Cap as the persons best
capacity at that par^cular ^me. When a person trains in Cap aver years
of work, they can raise it (or by AP/X)
The max human cap is 30. I think this is consist with the OPs in the book.

>Oh, and aver HP generaôn, changes in ATTRIBUTE scores don't aect
>STEEP levels, do they? I wouldn't think so but I don't remember at the
>moment...

Unfortunately, this is a part of game mechanics. They are just used to get
the iniâl STEEP.

>Maybe, if a persona actually reached a Capacity (with say, PMPow equalling
>PMCap), then maybe he should be able to increase each one, one at a ^me,
>for extra cost...

Not a bad idea.... But I really think the Cap is the most they can excel to
at the moment.

>Whew!! THat was quite the rant. Sorry, but answer those concerns and
>I'll be your friend. :)
>
>Jesse

Can I say we're friends? :)

So any ideas on powers, stats, etc. on the criker? I haven't done enough
research on making beasês to to the preliminary work. Help?

AJ=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 12:40:10 -0400

> sail away. Lesson: players don't get to be liches. Liches are evil
> incarnate, and as soon as a player becomes a lich they become an NPC (or
> whatever). Period. So even if a player wanted to become a lich I wouldn't
> let them because I don't think any of my friends is evil enough to play a
> lich as they really would act.

Well, of course you don't let players be liches... :) Leave that type of
thing to games like Kult... :)

> 2. Of my group of HPs, there are only two surviving original players (well,
> really one; the other died but was brought back via a fortuitous Alchemical
> Operaôn). We started playing in 1992 and as of now the highest STEEP is in
> the low 60s. I think 70's STEEPs are not out of the quesôn at all, so long
> as AP awards are appropirately handed out. To my mind, it is OK for the
> players to have these pioneer-level STEEPS because it is going to be their
> job to save the AErth from The Accursed, and they will need all the skill
> they can get.

Hey, don't get me wrong. I like HP's geing up there in STEEP. However,
it just seems like it's fairly easy with the rules the way they are (you
can start with around 50 and it's not all that dicult--if you decide to
specialize in a Sub-Area, you're already at 75). John Troy did make a
good point, however--70 STEEP would let you do grade 7 Cas^ngs at Hard.
I had forgoken that... Therefore, it would make sense to move it up a
level or two.

> you'd force the HPs to keep ac^ve or start losing points from their Caps as
> they turn into couch potatoes.

Well, I s^ll don't like Cap scores...but what the heck.

> So that is my input. Are we friends yet?

I love you, man!

Jesse


=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 12:43:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Caps and Pows
In-Reply-To: <199607041426.KAA17062@sparc1.glen-net.ca>

> But on second thought, It might not be a bad idea to use Cap for star^ng
> STEEP anyway and use Pow later in Jesse's Increasing STEEP rule.

Just a correcôn. I don't use Power for increasing STEEP, I use CATEGORY
levels (which is the 3 ATT's added up, if you recall).

Of course, since Mythus is "dead", and we're not geing any more new
ocial stu, we can change it any way we feel like, right? I'm just
asking because I've preky much changed the who ATTRIBUTE system. Once I
get my house revision done, I'll send it up here for you guys to tear
apart... :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 12:50:14 -0400
In-Reply-To: <v01530500ae012cd9d427@[206.68.74.128]>

> Yes, we agree. we use those opônal rules to keep the game *balanced.*

Well, I wouldn't exactly call it balance. I would just call the STEEP
cost increase a way to show that it is very dicult to increase already
marvelously high skill.

In my campaign, just for reference, I tend to provide a slightly larger
number of AP's to the players. The main reason is that we don't get to
play all that oven, and it's nice to see yourself advance. The other
reason is that there are plenty of things to spend AP's on... :)

Jesse


=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 16:52:51 -0400
Subject: Rule Changes

At 12:43 PM 7/4/96 -0400, you wrote:
>> (cut)
>
>
>Of course, since Mythus is "dead", and we're not geing any more new
>ocial stu, we can change it any way we feel like, right?

I did a pos^ng on this earlier(a month ago?). MYTHUS is indeed a
unsupported,out of print game. However, I would not describe the game as
dead since at least 200 people(via this list) play it. It is probably a safe
bet to conclude that there are at least this many players(200) who do not
have computers.

If one feels that one is not going to move any^me soon(My residence has
gone between San Antonio/Houston 3 ^mes in 5 years) then one can make
changes for their group. However, if one wants to expand by bringing in a
new player or if one moves to join a group(or start one) that person will be
expec^ng to play MYTHUS,not a new system that somebody created. So one can
change anything one wants but they will not be playing MYTHUS. In all
fairness even the MYTHUS book states a few things about dropping rules and
adding rules being ok but I am speaking here of major changes (like 75%
STEEP) and using dierent akributes to add on to beginning STEEPS. I also
do not think that one or two of these changes are too bad but when one
changes several areas in a major way one has created a revised gaming
system(IMHO).
Now all this is of course just my opinion. I do support house rules,which
every group I've been in had,but this is not changing the wriken rules of
the game. For instance I impose the rule that a player may not choose to
play the same Vocaôn as someone else in the group(which eliminates all
ghter groups etc.). I also do not allow a player to create a new HP of the
same Vocaôn as his deceased HP.

Now if rule changes must happen this is what I suggest. Print all the new
rules and provide it to the players at the start of play(at the groups rst
session).
Prin^ng them will allow you to see just how many changes you have made.
I myself have handed out pages on Readied Cas^ngs,Speed Factors,(both
ocial changes)and increasing STEEP cost(which is an unocial rules
change). NOTE: The readied cas^ngs and speed factors t on one page(the
miracle of xerox). If you have handed out more than 4 full pages(one sided)
you have made FAR to many changes.(IMHO)

Now the reason for my posiôn on this is simply that I would like to see
MYTHUS con^nue to grow(more players) as a gaming system throughout the
country.(Do other people have problems nding players?) I feel that
consistency,being able to go from one group to another already knowing the
rules,encourages players and makes it easier on them. If one feels he/she
will have to learn all new rules it might discourage them from seeking out a
MYTHUS group and encourage them to play another system that is s^ll
ocial and supported. No free adver^sing but there are MANY other RPG's
even in the Fantasy Genre,albiet not as goood(IMHO).

I'm just
>asking because I've preky much changed the who ATTRIBUTE system. Once I
>get my house revision done, I'll send it up here for you guys to tear
>apart... :)
>
>Jesse,

Now please don't take oense here. MYTHUS like all games is wriken for
entertainment. So if changes make you and your players gaming more enjoyable
than it is understandbale that you would make changes.
>
>
>Good gaming,
Michael John Weaver

P.S. Maybe we should ask Dave Newton about this since he co-authored MYTHUS.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 17:14:03 -0400

>>>And that is without a necromancer puing armor on themx
<<<

Yup, a skeleton or zombie with just studded leather is a real bitch to take
down with mundane akacks. If I ever really get ^cked at my players perhaps
I'll s^ck a couple in plate mail.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 17:22:33 -0400

>>> MYSTIC Vocaôn
(Spiritual Trait) <<<

OK, I admit that I just skimmed this. But, why Combat, HTH, non-lethal?????
I don't have a problem with any HP selected the combat areas during
creaôn, but as part of a Mys^c vocaôn? Otherwise it looks very similar
to one I put together.

If a mys^c school or self teaching program were going to include a combat
skill, I think learning dagger, etc. would be more ing.

Just another unsolicited opinion. (I take that back, anyone that posts IS
solici^ng opinions)

Later
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 17:47:46 -0400

>>>Also I like your Vocaôn idea, but I no^ces the lack of social K/S areas
for coping with the Royal Court (besides Games mental) maybe Cult Palate?.<<<

Actually this would depend on the specic mys^c the player wants to create.
As such the "elec^ve" K/S areas should be used to round out the HP
appropriately.

For instance, the royal advisor type HP cited should have things like
cultured palate, good e^queke score, maybe even Current Events, Economics,
etc. OTOH, the hermit style mys^c, wandering mys^c, etc. has likle or no
use for such things. Why saddle them with this baggage when Travel would be
more appropriate.

When crea^ng vocaôns I think we should s^ck to the basics of what makes
the vocaôn a "Mys^c". The player will determine what type of mys^c
he/she wants to play and can use the elec^ve K/S areas to modify the
vocaôn to match the perceived HP.

More grist for the mill?

Later
Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 18:15:13 -0400

At 05:22 PM 7/4/96 -0400, you wrote:

>>>> MYSTIC Vocaôn
> (Spiritual Trait) <<<
>
>OK, I admit that I just skimmed this.

Always a dangerous thing to do :)

But, why Combat, HTH, non-lethal?????
> I don't have a problem with any HP selected the combat areas during
>creaôn, but as part of a Mys^c vocaôn?

Yes.
Because like many monks and priests(those not of an Evil ethos) a Mys^c
would be taught to defend themselves but in a non-harmful manner. Indeed
Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido, was himself a Shinto Priest. As that the
Mys^c u^lizes many Eastern culture concepts in the game this K/S is
jusêd by both the exis^ng MYTHUS rules and real world examples. You may
also note that all of the four exis^ng Mys^cism Vocaôns in the book have
Combat,Hand Weapons(A Mys^c gh^ng with a Long Sword, now that would be odd).

Otherwise it looks very similar
>to one I put together.

Well I originally put this together for my group but have adjusted it(with
help from others) to "t" into the overall rules of MYTHUS,thus making it a
likle more generic. I did not see yours so I cannot comment on any common
themes. Did you post it to the list?
>
>If a mys^c school or self teaching program were going to include a combat
>skill, I think learning dagger, etc. would be more ing.

I would disagree.
See above. I believe that perhaps there is some confusion with regards to
Mys^cs and Dweomercraev/Priest while were at it uses of daggers and
swords. A Mys^c may use a dagger or sword in a ritual he performs but is
unlikely to choose this as his mode of defending himself. In Eastern culture
which the Mys^c is largely based on no weapon self defense(marâl arts) is
the most common.
>
>Just another unsolicited opinion. (I take that back, anyone that posts IS
>solici^ng opinions)

I always welcome comments,opinions,and suggesôns(some I even use). All
ideas are given due consideraôn before I decide to use or dismiss them.
Thanks for your input.
>
>Good gaming!
Michael John Weaver
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 18:41:17 -0400

At 05:47 PM 7/4/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>>>Also I like your Vocaôn idea, but I no^ces the lack of social K/S areas
>for coping with the Royal Court (besides Games mental) maybe Cult Palate?.<<<
>
>Actually this would depend on the specic mys^c the player wants to create.
> As such the "elec^ve" K/S areas should be used to round out the HP
>appropriately.

No not realy there is certain image type to the True Mys^c here (the Royal
advisor being the "perfect" example),if one doesn't like the image there are
4 other Mys^cism vocaôns.
Elec^ve K/S areas could include Travel. I made this change because the True
Mys^c is more suited to court life than Travel,now if one wants to create a
Gypsy(but I think Fortune-Teller is exactly that),then maybe Travel would be
beker but that was not the intenôn here.
>
>For instance, the royal advisor type HP cited should have things like
>cultured palate,

This was added.

good e^queke score,

Required SEC roll of 5 helps here.

maybe even Current Events, Economics,
>etc.

Foretelling the future and oering advice does not have to include current
events and certainly not something as mundane as economics. However, to t
in at court they could be useful but these areas are best lev as choices
for bonus K/S areas.(IMHO)

OTOH, the hermit style mys^c,

Someone should write up a monk.

wandering mys^c,

Read Fortune-Teller(Gypsy) by me.

etc. has likle or no
>use for such things. Why saddle them with this baggage when Travel would be
>more appropriate.

Because this forces the player to choose between Vocaôns, some things
being good others bad(never the best of everything). The Fortune-Teller
includes a decent star^ng Travel STEEP.
>
>When crea^ng vocaôns I think we should s^ck to the basics of what makes
>the vocaôn a "Mys^c".

I have.(see MYTHUS book pg.406) However, let me point out that when working
with base STEEP one has to include other areas so as not to have 5 K/S areas
with EXTREMELY high STEEPS.

The player will determine what type of mys^c
>he/she wants to play and can use the elec^ve K/S areas to modify the
>vocaôn to match the perceived HP.

Yes there are now 5 Mys^cism Vocaôns, if they do not wish to play a True
Mys^c there are 4 other choices.(player determinaôn) The player can
certainly customize the HP with his Bonus K/S areas but the required K/S
areas are in place.
>
>More grist for the mill?
>
>Later
>Rick C.
>
>Good gaming,
Michael John Weaver

P.S. Why do people assume the creator of something hasn't thought these
things out?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 16:08:31 -0700

At 11:28 PM 5/26/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Chris,
> I know of two Beasâries for sale here in Portland. Let me know if you
>want me to pick one up for you.

Are any s^ll availible? If so, how much?

Mike

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 19:58:41 -0400

Jesse wrote:
>
> > When the profession bonus lists a group, I take that to mean that
> > en^re Category. So that in the case of the ghter, it represents that
> > characters natural abiliês for weapons of all sorts.
> >
> > BIG d
> >
> > P.S. I am glad to see that I am not the only RMSS fan in this list!
>
> Well, you're right on that, but I'm curious: did Mythus-L change its name
> to Mythus/RMSS-L?
>
> Jesse
>
> --Me, simply: Music:
> Angela Bualo: TV: Games: Cathedral
> ANGELa Bills: Always #1! Reboot Mythus Cel^c Frost
> ANGEL Sabres: Love hurts! Outer Limits ARIA Solitude Aeturnus

Thanks for the answer. This was supposed to be posted to the Rolemaster mailing list, sorry about that
(tough
day at work).

--/Nikodemus
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 17:28:40 -0700
Subject: Geisha Vocaôn

====> GEISHA

Geisha (Oriental) Vocaôn
by Je Sharpe <jsharpe@portal.ca>

Trait: Spiritual
SEC Range: 2-7
SEC At Start: 3

The Geisha is a Spiritual TRAIT Vocaôn who specializes in the arts
of entertainment and manipulaôn. They are trained from a very early
age in the elds of music, subterfuge, conversaôn, and art.

Geisha's usually worked and lived within a single house from the day
they begin their training. Oven they are sold to a Geisha House by
their own families, and some^mes even join through personal choice.
Though a Geisha can purchase her own contract, they require a permit
to leave the House. Though it is more likely that the Geisha is will
be purchased by one of their own clients.

It is rare to nd a Geisha outside the connes of her House due to
her contract and her inability to survive on her own. Though there
have been cases that the skills of subterfuge have been put to use,
the Geisha will usually be found traveling with a master.

K/S Base STEEP
------------------------------------------- --------- Charisma^cism 20
Magne^sm 20
E^queke/Social Graces 16
Nature Akunement 16
Music 16
Thespianism 16
Spellsongs 16
Inuence 16
Cultured Palate 12
Poetry/Lyrics 12
Musical Composiôn 12
Foreign Language 12
Foreign Language 12
Domes^c Arts 8
Pain^ng (Ar^s^c) 8
Games, Mental 8
Literature 8
Combat, Hand-to-Hand, Lethal 8
Mys^cism 8
Herbalism 4
Buoonery 4
Philosopy 4
Gambling 4
-- 260

Though play-tested several ^mes, this Vocaôn was primarily designed
as an OP.

(C) 1995 by Je "Caesar" Sharpe
Reproducôn granted to advocates of Dangerous Journeys Mythus.

-Je Sharpe

#include "std_disclaimer.h" Linux, GNU, and M$ Free...
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 21:29:59 -0500
Subject: Royal Advisor Voc. (repeat)

I think this was posted before, but I thought it might be helpfull in
des^nguishing between an Advisor vocaôn and a True Mys^c.

This Advisor Could pick up Mys^cism, but would not have a great deal of
suppor^ng k/s areas to have a large heka pool, thus I can see the
possibiliy of both vocaôn bundles.

The Royal Advisor

Royal Advisor Mental 7-9 8

The Royal Advisor can take on many roles depending on the genre. In
one case he or she may represent the Grand Visier, yet in another, it may
be counsel to a King or Court. In most cases this persona is born of royal
blood, thus is master in the ways of social informaôn gathering and
inuencing, but always in the manner to serve the ruling class, and
frequently selfserving. Some^mes ruthless in their determinaôn, there
job is to keep the ruling class informed and well advised. Although they
may be tactless at ^mes, a good advisor will always get the job done, if
not, there always seems to be another distant rela^ve to the ruling class
who is anxious to take the place of the former.
The job is seeming easy, but is impossible and thankless, thus the
oven change-over in advisors by most governments. In an
oversimplicaôn, the Royal Advisor is to keep the Ruling class informed
on all possible informaôn which he or she may desire at a moments no^ce.
In addiôn, the advisor must keep the sta and palace free of corrupôn
and rumurs which might be dangerous to the government and rulers. Be sure
to oer "Loksa Luck!"

Inuence 20 MRC
Logic 16 MRC
Law 16 AveMC
Poli^cal Science 16 AveMC
Public Administraôn 16 MRP
Cultured Palate 12 PNC

Judgment 12 AveSC
Espionage 12 AveMC
Decepôn 12 MRC
Current Events 12 AveMP
Street Wise 8 SPC
Criminal Ac^viês-Men 8 MMC
Tolerance 8 PNP
Business Administraôn 8 AveMC
Biography/Genealogy 8 MMC
Surveillance/Security 8 PNC
Survival 8 PMC
Combat, H2H Weapons 8 AvePC
Economics/Finance/Inv 8 AveMC
Appraisal 8 MRC
Leadership 8 SPC
Foreign Language- 4 MMC
Charisma^cism 4 SPC
History 4 MMC
Rariês 4 MMC
Handiworks/Handicravs 4 PNC
Disguise 4 PNC
264 total

The Advisor can take on a good many personaliês with the correct
supplement of bonus K/S areas. This persona can easily t the life of a
double agent, assist in Foreign aairs or Military Issues, or countless
other specializaôns. Some possible addiôns might be:
Mental: Literature, Criminology, Criminal Ac^viês-Mental, Cryptography,
Games-Mental, Geography-Foreign Lands, Hypno^sm, Lip Reading and Sign
Language, Military Science, Sociology-Culture, Surveying-Topography
Physical: Combats (any), Criminal Ac^viês-Physical, Escape, First Aid,
Games-Physical, Hun^ng-Tracking, Music, Sports, Travel
Spiritual: Animal Handling, Impersonaôn, Magne^sm, Thespianism

I am certainly interested in any other vocaôn bundles out there and
appreciate the comments to increase the perspec^ve of each vocaôn. My
goal is to have a K/S bundle for each contact possible in Mythus. Any help
is certainly welcome, so please keep pos^ng them. ;)

Good Gaming!

AJ=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 02:28:39 -0400


>>>In Eastern culture which the Mys^c is largely based <<<

Wherein lies the source of our disparate views. I don't see the "True
Mys^c" as being Far Eastern in avor. Eastern, yes. As to the other
vocaôns, fortune teller, etc. from the Mythus handbook, I was looking for a
"True" Mys^c also. i.e. one who had Mys^cism as his primary cas^ng area.
This Mys^c was too wrapped up in mys^cism and self improvement to care
what the Royals were up to.

Again, just a dierence in perspec^ve. Mayhap we can resolve the quesôn
by acknowledging that there likely is no "True Mys^c" and call your vocaôn
a "Royal Mys^c". I don't know what I'll call mine, but I work on it.

>>>Yes.
Because like many monks and priests(those not of an Evil ethos) a Mys^c
would be taught to defend themselves but in a non-harmful manner. Indeed
Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido, was himself a Shinto Priest. As that the
Mys^c u^lizes many Eastern culture concepts in the game this K/S is
jusêd by both the exis^ng MYTHUS rules and real world examples. You may
also note that all of the four exis^ng Mys^cism Vocaôns in the book have
Combat,Hand Weapons(A Mys^c gh^ng with a Long Sword, now that would be
odd).<<<<

Yup, I noted that. Actually a lot of the vocaôns include the various
combat K/Ss at low STEEPs. It looks to me like they were trying to keep
certain non-combat oriented vocaôns from having a high star^ng prociency
in the combat arts. Any comments Dave N.?

BTW, I hope you're not cas^ng Morihei Ueshiba as a "True Mys^c". I also
prac^ce Aikido and don't think O'Sensei ts the role. (Please take the
preceding as the humor it is meant to be).

>>>P.S. Why do people assume the creator of something hasn't thought these
things out?<<<

P.P.S Why do creators (myself included) assume that discussion and comments
qualify as disparaging remarks. I think the discussions bring out concepts
and ideas that the creator takes for granted, but are not intui^vely obvious
to the reader.

For instance.....
>>> The true Mys^c is one that both foretells the future and oers advice
as to what one should do to avoid disaster or to enhance ones posi^ve
outcomes.
interest in performing exorcisms, that role being lev to those who choose to
specialize in situaôns already gone awry. The Mys^c can oven be found in
the employment of nobles and even on occasion in Royal courts<<<

This passage indicates that "The Mys^c can oven be found in the employment
of nobles and....."

The subsequent discussion tells us that this was your true focus for the
vocaôn. Actually reading the beginning of the para again, this looks more
like a social climbing Diviner/Fortune Teller.

-----------------------------------------------------------------Reading over this post I don't think the avor is quite what I was looking
for but I'm going to post it anyway. Keep up the good work and keep it
friendly.

Later

Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 17:16:48 +0300
In-Reply-To: <199607040602.CAA23730@darius.cris.com>

On Thu, 4 Jul 1996, Michael J. Weaver wrote:

> There's an idea(Cultured Palate) I'll consider it,it could possibly replace
> Travel which I see as a Gypsy thing anyway. This Vocaôn is vey much a work
> in progress(at least that's what I consider it). I am hoping by pos^ng
> number 4 its as perfect as it can get or at least needs to be. Of course
> E^queke/Social Graces is a universal K/S area.

I think, as a referee(I don't like those stupid ^tles as Game
Master or Journey Master, 'cause referee gives you beker impression what
you're doing), all of those vocaôns should be customized. Those tables
are just ARCHETYPES, suggesôns without any personal touch(I think those
addiônal skills aren't enough). Such modicaôn also adds some avor
to character and world( and allows two players with same vocaôn to be a
lot dierent).

Yours Kautsu.

DON'T TRUST ANYONE. COMPUTER IS YOUR FRIEND.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:34:53 -0600
From: Douglas Noonan <free@DNS.MCN.NET>

Subject: Capacity Akribute

Dear Mythus Gamers:

Jesse's quesôns about what the Capacity scores actually mean has prompted
me to quit lurking for a bit and jump in the fray. Being such a fan of the
'ACT' construcôn of HP akributes, I feel that I need to defend the
underlying wisdom (as I see it).

"Cap" can easily be misunderstood if you limit its meaning to just being
used to determine (1) star^ng STEEPs and (2) the upper bounds of a Spd or
Pow score. Although I agree with the stretching analogy used to point out
that, through prac^ce, one's capacity in something can expand, there's
s^ll more to Cap than that. But it is true, maturity in all senses (M, P,
S) can bring a rise in Cap. Otherwise, the implicaôn is that newborns can
have MMCap's of 20.

The way I see Cap is in a much more broad sense. There is more to life
than Spd and Pow. Just like in Physics, there is more to life than
Velocity and Acceleraôn. Vectors can have fewer or far more dimensions
than that. Cap represents the general nature of the Category, and it also
lls in the blanks that Spd and Pow leave out. I like to use an analogy
of a computer when thinking about Mental Mnemonic, for example. There is
more to a hard drive than its Spd and its Pow. There is more to a computer
than Spd and Pow. etc. The Cap akribute describes the other aspects of
the category. Suppose you have someone with a 25 MRCap and only an 8 MRSpd
and a 7 MRPow. With a 40 MR score, nobody would call the HP stupid. But
their ability to reason through things is neither very quick nor especially
adept at solving intricate puzzles. But, when the HP does have the ^me to
reason through things, their logic is innova^ve, elegant, and accurate.
Cap, IMHO, seems to adequately reect both the general nature of the
Category and the upper bounds of Spd and Pow.

Excuse the long windedness, I just feel rather strongly about the beauty
behind the design of the HP characteris^cs in the Mythus system. Sure,
SMSpd might not seem obviously useful, but it seems to me to play a key
role in developing some K/S's and, given the right scenario, could make the
dierence between life and death for some HPs. Just because it won't help
you open a door or remember a phone number doesn't make it extraneous.

On a related note: Some ^me ago, I wrote a very lengthy conversion system
for Marvel Superheroes (nod to Lucifer) to Dangerous Journeys. I called it
"Maximus", because my intent was to basically use the pre-exis^ng Mythus
rules, add in a few extras, and extend the tables to cover higher ranges of
powers (thus "maximizing" the game). It hasn't been playtested all that
much, but I want to get some feedback on it. I suppose I should post it to
my website or the list (once my PowerBook gets back from the shop -- see
more of us out here using Macs!).

Anyway, here's a quesôn: For larger-than-mansized (or smaller) crikers,

their PSpd components get mul^pliers to boost (or shrink) their PSpd score
without actually modifying their 'actual' scores. Can the same work in the
Mental and Spiritual domain? Can we conceive of beings that are larger or
smaller than man in their Mental or Spiritual dimensions? How about a
massive senênt 'computer' or eight-brained mutant complete with redundant
systems and mutli-tasking capaciês? Would it have a X8 mul^plier to its
MRSpd and MMSpd to boost its MR while dividing by 8 would yield the
"actual" MSpd? And, for Spiritual beings, can we imagine a being with,
say, a lower order soul than humans? Something which might be an
independent part of a collec^ve spiritual en^ty might have its SSpd's at
4, but its 'actual' SSpds might receive a X4 mul^plier to reect this
"smaller-than-man sized" nature.

What do you think, sirs?

For my rst post to MYTHUS-L, it was quite a doozy. Thanks for listening
and thanks for keeping the best gaming system alive (or unalive, or
whatever)!

-Doug Noonan
free@mcn.net
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 15:07:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Capacity Akribute

>The Cap akribute describes the other aspects of
>the category. Suppose you have someone with a 25 MRCap and only an 8 MRSpd
>and a 7 MRPow. With a 40 MR score, nobody would call the HP stupid. But
>their ability to reason through things is neither very quick nor especially
>adept at solving intricate puzzles. But, when the HP does have the ^me to
>reason through things, their logic is innova^ve, elegant, and accurate.
>Cap, IMHO, seems to adequately reect both the general nature of the
>Category and the upper bounds of Spd and Pow.

I agree, very elegantly put. I think it says all of this in the books
someplace.

>Anyway, here's a quesôn: For larger-than-mansized (or smaller) crikers,
>their PSpd components get mul^pliers to boost (or shrink) their PSpd score
>without actually modifying their 'actual' scores. Can the same work in the
>Mental and Spiritual domain? Can we conceive of beings that are larger or
>smaller than man in their Mental or Spiritual dimensions? How about a
>massive senênt 'computer' or eight-brained mutant complete with redundant
>systems and mutli-tasking capaciês? Would it have a X8 mul^plier to its
>MRSpd and MMSpd to boost its MR while dividing by 8 would yield the
>"actual" MSpd? And, for Spiritual beings, can we imagine a being with,
>say, a lower order soul than humans? Something which might be an

>independent part of a collec^ve spiritual en^ty might have its SSpd's at
>4, but its 'actual' SSpds might receive a X4 mul^plier to reect this
>"smaller-than-man sized" nature.

No. At least I cannot conceive of such a being. Physical akributes
are dependant on physical size.

I can;t nish this now.

Dan.
"Hi! I just wanted to see how you were doing on this rainy day,
on this rainy day, on this rainy day, on this rainy day."
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 20:45:26 -0400
Subject: Back from the grave (again)
X-To: marvel-rpg@stargame.org, khawk@stargame.org

AOL's been giving me some serious problems for the last month, but things
should be all xed up now. Sorry for my disappearance.

Lucifer >:}
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 16:01:58 -0400
Subject: Web site stu

Mike (the symbiote) where ever you are....

You recently posted a locaôn to upload les for inclusion in the web site.
Would you please EMail it to me again. Lost it.

I have someone set to send my FM3.0 databases, but I need a target.

Thx.

Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 16:48:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Web site stu

>Mike (the symbiote) where ever you are....
>
>You recently posted a locaôn to upload les for inclusion in the web site.
> Would you please EMail it to me again. Lost it.

Could you post your web site address also? I don't seem to have it..

>I have someone set to send my FM3.0 databases, but I need a target.

Well, I'd be willing to post it if its not too big....I'd like a look at
it at any rate.

Charles Hagenbuch
hagendaz@prolog.net
hkp://home.ptd.net/~hagendaz/

P.S. I've added a few things to my web site.. HP Sheets and the Herbs
database in ClarisWorks 4, and a Heka tracking chart in HTML - not sure
how much use it'll be. I'm working on HP sheets in HTML, also, and on
geing sci- rules converted to mythus and posted, not necessarily in
that order.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 17:27:54 -0700
Subject: Re: Web site stu

At 04:01 PM 7/6/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Mike (the symbiote) where ever you are....
>
>You recently posted a locaôn to upload les for inclusion in the web site.
> Would you please EMail it to me again. Lost it.
>
>I have someone set to send my FM3.0 databases, but I need a target.

Uhhh, I think you have the wrong Mike. I think you mean Mike Phillips, but
it might be Michael Weaver.

Mike(the Symbiote)

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 00:15:29 -0400
Subject: Web site update...again

Hello, all who've stuck around for the summer...

I've updated my web site, again. The herbs list is now available as an
Excel 5 le, instead of ClarisWorks, and the html version has been made
into a table. It takes longer to load, but I think the tradeo in beker
readability and more informaôn possible is worth it.

Note that neither of the versions of the herbs list are intended as
nished...I've got LOTS of herbs lev to add. That'll eventually result
in the html version being broken into several pieces, but that's another
day...

To those who visited my site a while ago when I rst announced it and
were denitely unimpressed, I'd like to beg another chance. I've redone
almost everything to be much nicer and more readable, and the actual
stu available is beker, although nowhere near Mike Phillips excellent
site.

PLEASE send me comments on the site...whether you like it or hate it!

The address is:
hkp://home.ptd.net/~hagendaz/mythus.html

Thanks,
Charles Hagenbuch
hagendaz@prolog.net
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 05:07:45 -0400
Subject: MYTHUS Collecôn

I am currently akemp^ng work on secôns of the MYTHUS Collecôn. I would
appreciate it if anyone that has a vocaôn that they wish included would
E-mail it to me (aikido@cris.com) along with a statement giving me
permission to use it in the collecôn. I plan to release the whole
collecôn into the public domain so if you don't wish your vocaôn
released please do not submit it. A statement aver your vocaôn and name
i.e. "the author of this vocaôn freely releases it into the public
domain." would also be sucient.

I would also very much like to include in the collecôn any conversion
rules(Mythus/other RPG) that people have wriken up. The same restricôns
as above apply. Please E-mail those if you have them and want them included.

I envision the collecôn(at this ^me,it is a work in progress) as
containing the following secôns:

1. Rules correcôns,where the books have made simple prin^ng errors

2. Rules clearicaôns

3. Vocaôns

4. Adventures(this may possibly be cut)

5. Conversions

6. Player created rule addiôns(presented as opônal)

7. New Magick,this area is undened I am thinking only new cas^ngs but it
may expand.

Quesôns,comments,and suggesôns are as always welcome.

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 10:24:16 -0600
From: Chris Beadles <kaos@CYBERPORT.NET>
Subject: Return of Kaos

Hello all. Aver a brief break from the Net I have nally returned. As
a Mythus GM it has been Hell not to be able to exchange ideas here :)

Anyhow, I have some interes^ng stu lying around if anyone is
interested, including a Cyberpunk conversion, an oriental conversion
(based o of AD&D's Oriental Adventures), as well as new Cas^ngs,
Vocaôns, Monsters, etc. I will send stu by request or some^mes
just at random. :)

If Dave Newton is s^ll out there...

Hi!

**************************
* *
* Kaos *
* *
* kaos@cyberport.net *
* *
**************************
* (Quote goes here) *
**************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 19:36:40 -0400

Subject: Bad E-mail addresses.

I sent E-mail to the following people:

Tony Mar^n
J. Teske
Gary Spechko
Chad Horsley
S. Gullerud

All this E-mail was returned. I was akemp^ng to contact them to seek
permission to use their vocaôns, which appear on Mike Phillip's MYTHUS
page,in the MYTHUS Collecôn. If anyone knows the correct E-mail addresses
for the above people or if you are on this list please E-mail me.
(aikido@cris.com)

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 00:59:20 -0700
Subject: Re: MYTHUS Collecôn

Sounds cool. Feel free to "suggest" my "generic" ideas(well, the ar^cer
isn't exactly generic but who honestly gives a $%*#@)

>I envision the collecôn(at this ^me,it is a work in progress) as
>containing the following secôns:
>
>1. Rules correcôns,where the books have made simple prin^ng errors
>
>2. Rules clearicaôns
>
>3. Vocaôns
>
>4. Adventures(this may possibly be cut)
>
>5. Conversions
>
>6. Player created rule addiôns(presented as opônal)
>
>7. New Magick,this area is undened I am thinking only new cas^ngs but it
>may expand.
>
>Quesôns,comments,and suggesôns are as always welcome.
>
>Good Gaming,
>
>

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 05:34:38 -0400

At 12:59 AM 7/8/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Sounds cool. Feel free to "suggest" my "generic" ideas(well, the ar^cer
>isn't exactly generic but who honestly gives a $%*#@)
>
>>>Chris Calvert
>
>calvert@ucla.edu
>
>Thank you, I appreciate it. Ok I will include the Ar^cer however,
perhaps I wasn't paying akenôn(happens from ^me to ^me) what generic ideas?

Regards,
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 11:25:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Bad E-mail addresses.

>Tony Mar^n
>J. Teske
>Gary Spechko
>Chad Horsley
>S. Gullerud
>
>All this E-mail was returned. I was akemp^ng to contact them to seek
>permission to use their vocaôns, which appear on Mike Phillip's MYTHUS

If you were using mailto: elds, keep in mind that some of those E-Mail
elds are old addresses and haven't been updated. (For example, any E-Mail
address for me at GEnie is invalid).

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 14:32:43 -0400
In-Reply-To: <v01510106ae030299768e@[205.163.40.48]>

> Dear Mythus Gamers:
>
> Jesse's quesôns about what the Capacity scores actually mean has prompted
> me to quit lurking for a bit and jump in the fray. Being such a fan of the
> 'ACT' construcôn of HP akributes, I feel that I need to defend the
> underlying wisdom (as I see it).

Hey, please don't take my rant the wrong way. I s^ll like the way the
system is designed. I just like to mess with the rules... :)

Perhaps Cap is not a good word to use here. Perhaps something more
all-encompassing would make more sense. Anyone have any ideas? A beker
descrip^ve word to use here would help new players understand it beker,
amond other things. I do like the explanaôn, however, and now I'm
re-thinking the changes I've made... :) (dammit)

> On a related note: Some ^me ago, I wrote a very lengthy conversion system
> for Marvel Superheroes (nod to Lucifer) to Dangerous Journeys. I called it
> "Maximus", because my intent was to basically use the pre-exis^ng Mythus
> rules, add in a few extras, and extend the tables to cover higher ranges of
> powers (thus "maximizing" the game). It hasn't been playtested all that
> much, but I want to get some feedback on it. I suppose I should post it to
> my website or the list (once my PowerBook gets back from the shop -- see
> more of us out here using Macs!).

Extend the tables?? Beyond beyond? :) This is something that I would
denitely like to see!

> Anyway, here's a quesôn: For larger-than-mansized (or smaller) crikers,
> their PSpd components get mul^pliers to boost (or shrink) their PSpd score
> without actually modifying their 'actual' scores. Can the same work in the
> Mental and Spiritual domain? Can we conceive of beings that are larger or
> smaller than man in their Mental or Spiritual dimensions? How about a
> massive senênt 'computer' or eight-brained mutant complete with redundant
> systems and mutli-tasking capaciês? Would it have a X8 mul^plier to its
> MRSpd and MMSpd to boost its MR while dividing by 8 would yield the
> "actual" MSpd? And, for Spiritual beings, can we imagine a being with,
> say, a lower order soul than humans? Something which might be an
> independent part of a collec^ve spiritual en^ty might have its SSpd's at
> 4, but its 'actual' SSpds might receive a X4 mul^plier to reect this
> "smaller-than-man sized" nature.
>
> What do you think, sirs?

I like this concept, actually. I think you have to be a lot more careful
about where you use it, however. For big huge computers or super-smart
mutants, I think their Mental TRAIT would be huge, and so would the Mental
Speeds. However, if you have a single-brained, regular guy, you might
devise a power which grants mul^pliers to his Mental Speeds, while not
aec^ng the overall trait of the fellow. Your example of the Collec^ve
Soul (heh heh) is on target I think...

Please get us (me!) the Marvel Conversion stu...that idea really would
be good to have (when your gamers are all TSR-Marvel-philes, it might be a
lot of fun!)

> For my rst post to MYTHUS-L, it was quite a doozy. Thanks for listening
> and thanks for keeping the best gaming system alive (or unalive, or
> whatever)!

Doug, I'll check Mythus; I can't remember which form of unlife is the most
powerful...we ought to use that name to describe ourselves... :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 14:49:36 -0400
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.93.960708142034.3681B-100000@lictor.acsu.bualo.edu>

> > For my rst post to MYTHUS-L, it was quite a doozy. Thanks for listening
> > and thanks for keeping the best gaming system alive (or unalive, or
> > whatever)!
>
> Doug, I'll check Mythus; I can't remember which form of unlife is the most
> powerful...we ought to use that name to describe ourselves... :)

That's easy: unmortal ;-)

-- __+__

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 15:42:07 -0400
Subject: MMM electronically?

OK, I asked Connie about us geing permission to post an electronic
version of the MMM issues, and she said yes, legally, this could be
done, provided that TSR owned the rights to those ar^cles (and
therefore had the right to give permission). However, she has to
check her records on those items, and that may take a likle while.
It would help if you could point out the status of those items.
She knows that TSR got the rights to the GDW items, but she doesn't
know if the magazine ar^cles are covered under the same groupings
(i.e., did GDW get all rights to those ar^cles, or just 1st-print
rights?).

I recall that GDW got all the rights when they were published, but
if anyone out there could refresh my memory, it would help.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 15:27:28 -0500
Subject: MMM electronically?

> I recall that GDW got all the rights when they were published, but
> if anyone out there could refresh my memory, it would help.

In order to get the MMM's released electronically to me I am willing to say
that I'm sure that GDW got all the rights when they were published.

But as I'm not an expert nor was I involed with MMM my statement means likle.

:)

Free the MMM 6!!! (?)

Dan.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:39:13 +0100

Subject: Re: MMM electronically?

>OK, I asked Connie about us geing permission to post an electronic
>version of the MMM issues, and she said yes, legally, this could be
>done, provided that TSR owned the rights to those ar^cles (and
>therefore had the right to give permission). However, she has to
>check her records on those items, and that may take a likle while.
>It would help if you could point out the status of those items.
>She knows that TSR got the rights to the GDW items, but she doesn't
>know if the magazine ar^cles are covered under the same groupings
>(i.e., did GDW get all rights to those ar^cles, or just 1st-print
>rights?).
>
>I recall that GDW got all the rights when they were published, but
>if anyone out there could refresh my memory, it would help.
>*The Gen Con 1996 registraôn book is online at the sites above*

As I know it, TSR got the mother-load of Mythus material, including the
MMMs. Producôn had to stop on the material immediately. GDW never
published MMM. It was all Gygax and Mentzer.

While we're at it, my friend and I never received issue six (electronic).
We subscribed for six issues. Having never been recompensated for the lost
issue, I wonder if TSR is libal for breach of contract. Hmmm. :)

Of course, if issue 6 were available to me, I wouldn't complain in the
least. (: )

Tom

Food for thought:

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:56:39 -0400

>I am currently akemp^ng work on secôns of the MYTHUS Collecôn. I would
>appreciate it if anyone that has a vocaôn that they wish included would
>E-mail it to me (aikido@cris.com) along with a statement giving me
>permission to use it in the collecôn. I plan to release the whole
>collecôn into the public domain...............

Any par^cular format you favor???
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 19:14:11 -0400

> How about a
>> massive senênt 'computer' or eight-brained mutant complete with
redundant
>> systems and mutli-tasking capaciês? Would it have a X8 mul^plier to
its
>> MRSpd and MMSpd to boost its MR while dividing by 8 would yield the
>> "actual" MSpd?

That whole system (for physical trait) was devised to allow a cat or similar
small animal to have a good Spd w/o ar^cially pumping up its PTrait. Or
to allow a Giant to have a high Trait while keeping the Spd itself
appropriate to the giant.

If you can think of a like situaôn in M or STrait go for it. However, in
the examples cited why not just give them the Spd you want and let it bump up
the MTrait. Bearing in mind of course that the limit on Spd being equal to
or less than Cap is *Only* applicable to HPs.

Later.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:24:44 -0700

At 05:34 AM 7/8/96 -0400, you wrote:
>At 12:59 AM 7/8/96 -0700, you wrote:
>>Sounds cool. Feel free to "suggest" my "generic" ideas(well, the ar^cer
>>isn't exactly generic but who honestly gives a $%*#@)
>>
>>>>Chris Calvert
>>
>>calvert@ucla.edu
>>
>>Thank you, I appreciate it. Ok I will include the Ar^cer however,
>perhaps I wasn't paying akenôn(happens from ^me to ^me) what generic
ideas?

Well, adventure and creature ideas and stu. Not that I have done much of
that. I was saying that more for future reference, because I have become
unwilling to publicly post specics for any game system(to protect my
worthless copyrights)(But gee Wally, what system might he be intending it for?).

Mike

"So, what do you think of the symbio^c lifestyle Mike?"
"Well, Fred, I must say that I like having my nutrients provided for
me, but this whole host-symbiote interrelaônship thing can be a problem.
See, when the host starves, I starve, when................." ;)

Yes, here's the sig

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:35:00 -0700
Subject: My Journeys subscripôn

I was digging through some of my older RPG stu the other day, when I found
my reciept for my Journeys subscripôn!!
Now I paid for a full twelve issues, star^ng with issue 4, the only one I
recieved. It is possible that ve and six were mailed to me, but I somehow
never got them.
So EGS owes me at least nine issues of Journeys.(At least)

Sean, what do I do??

I know it will probably involve photocopying the receipt and sending it to
someone, but who?

(Now if I could just nd my stupid MMM reciept)

Mike(Advocate of Symbiosis)

"Beker living through Symbiosis"

Here he is, the one you have been wai^ng for, Its MISTER SIG !!!!!!

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:44:49 -0700
Subject: which form of unlife? Unmortal!

How about Unmortal?

(As in the Unmortal Rahotep?)

sounds scarier than
undead,
unalive, or
unliving

Mythus the Unmortal. Cool.

Symbiote

Wow, three posts in one day. I think thats my record.

Cool Monster of the day. Sons of Kyuss(From 1st ediôn Fiend Folio)
I nd it dicult to concieve of a more ing form of undead for
Necropolis other than mummies themselves.

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 20:31:30 -0400

> I recall that GDW got all the rights when they were published,
> but if anyone out there could refresh my memory, it would help.

MMM was published by Tri-Gee Enterprises, not GDW. I do not know what kind of
copyright artrangement Tri-Gee made.

Loren (XGDW) Wiseman
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 20:36:42 -0400


At 06:56 PM 7/8/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>I am currently akemp^ng work on secôns of the MYTHUS Collecôn. I would
>>appreciate it if anyone that has a vocaôn that they wish included would
>>E-mail it to me (aikido@cris.com) along with a statement giving me
>>permission to use it in the collecôn. I plan to release the whole
>>collecôn into the public domain...............
>
>
>Any par^cular format you favor???

Yes, I am working with Windows so I can't realy accomodate MAC material
very easily. I know many people have MACS so this may be a problem. Where
par^cular programs are concerned Works,Word,Publisher,etc. I have no
preference as that it is all conver^ble.

Regards,
Michael
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 20:43:10 -0500
From: Travis Clark <myddrin@ICNET.NET>

>>Any par^cular format you favor???
>
> Yes, I am working with Windows so I can't realy accomodate MAC material
>very easily. I know many people have MACS so this may be a problem. Where
>par^cular programs are concerned Works,Word,Publisher,etc. I have no
>preference as that it is all conver^ble.
>
>Regards,
>Michael

Macs with at least 7.1 or beker I think, can read ibm formaked
disks and les...
Trav
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 20:56:59 -0600
Subject: Cap, Actual Spds, and Marvel-->Mythus

To follow up...

[Jesse wrote:]
> Hey, please don't take my rant the wrong way.

I'll try not to. Being a minor fana^c, I'm prone to take cri^ques of the
Mythus design too seriously. Mea culpa. Thanks for the posi^ve response.

And, I'm gonna keep thinking of a new word for "Capacity". It works for
me, but I can see its limitaôns.

[Richard Crook wrote:]

>That whole system (for physical trait) was devised to allow a cat or similar
>small animal to have a good Spd w/o ar^cially pumping up its PTrait. Or
>to allow a Giant to have a high Trait while keeping the Spd itself
>appropriate to the giant.

I concur. I just feel that there is more to world (despite the perceptual
limitaôns of humanity) than Physical. My examples weren't too good.
If/when I come up with beker ones, I'll try to get some feedback on them.
Theore^cally, it seems possible to me to have a being rela^vely fast/slow
in Mental or Spiritual traits, without being extra or less "pumped up". I
just wanted to leave that door open, especially as I consider all sorts of
weirdos in a superheroic genre. For basic Mythus, I can imagine an avatar
(if we dare assign akributes) or similarly "blessed/accursed" being having
a supernaturally endowed SMSpd, but having a rela^vely normal 'actual'
SMSpd. There may be beker ways in the rules to handle this, so I'll keep
my mind open.

> Bearing in mind of course that the limit on Spd being equal to
>or less than Cap is *Only* applicable to HPs.

I wasn't bearing this in mind. I guess I missed this rule. Can anyone
explain this to me, and maybe point out some of the non-HPs who have
Spd/Pows higher than Caps?

Regarding my work with Marvel, I should probably keep my mouth shut un^l
I'm done. And, I should clarify what I meant about "extending the tables".
I didn't mean to extend the Marvel Super Heroes tables. I think the upper
"Beyond" limit says it all. Rather, I meant to extend Mythus. As I read
the book, likle akenôn or development is given to characteris^cs
exceeding human potenâl. The text tells us about upper human limits. If
I recall, it's MCap=40, PCap=30, SCap=30. I created tables to tell you
what, for example, an M of 65 would mean. The tables also convert between
Marvel scores and Mythus scores. These could easily be posted to the list
or to individuals upon request. Within the week, I hope to have them on my
Website in a much more readable format. I doubt anyone will agree with my
numbers, but it was an interes^ng (and useful) exercise. I'm currently
using these tables to run an adventure in which converted versions of
Marvel characters are in a Mythus realm.

My plans for a more full-avored "Maximus" system entail the following
secôns: (*) indicates 'completed' secôns

Akribute Tables (*)
Mental (*)
Physical (*)
Spiritual (*)
Modiers (actual v. eec^ve) (*)
Character Generaôn:
'Modern' vocaôns (*)
Being type (*)
Akribute generaôn (*)
Powers (*)
Combat:
Slugfest for superhumans (*)
Grappling/escaping (revised rules) (*)
Charging (*)
Stuns/Slams/Kills (*)
Special Tac^cs:
Groundstrike
Combined Akack
Fastball special
Shockwave
Heka-Engendered Powers
Vril
Vril to Heka
Regeneraôn of Heka
Superhuman Healing (*)

While most of these are preky sketchy, I hope to have it all
nished in a maker of a few weeks (coming soon to a website near you).
In the mean^me, I can send anyone notes upon request.

I agree that this conversion could be an en^cing way to bring newcomers to
Mythus. It has worked a few ^mes for me so far. If anyone has any
suggesôns for how to go about a conversion system, please let me know.

I hope it is of some use even to those readers who aren't interested in
crea^ng conversions or other genres. My main intent is to basically
extend the pre-wriken Mythus rules to encompass the superheroic (I don't
want to do a lot of rule wri^ng, or any rule re-wri^ng). Besides, it has
helped put those Barbarians with PMPows of 20 into their place.

I like "Unmortal". It's got a nice ring to it.

Thank you, and good gaming!

-Doug

(wait un^l I get a lawyer and look into releasing my Excel
spreadsheets/macros which automa^cally generate HPs and character sheets
for each vocaôn and my Excel master spellbook le....)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 23:55:39 -0400
Subject: Herbs list, again

If anyone has objecôns to me pos^ng updates like this to the list, or
is just plain sick of it, let me know, and I'll stop. I've been geing
about zero feedback on my recent posts, so I'm not even sure the mail is
really going to the list.

Anyway...I'm in the process of yet another update to the herbs list. I
added a season category, for when the stu grows, and the Excel sheet is
formaked a likle beker.

About the Class category - I changed the name to Reagent Class in order
to clarify. I'm refering to the chart near the back of Mythus
Magick...hold on...okay, page 350. My opinion is that no herb will be a
reservoir without being prepared and worked, so I'm avoiding classes 5,
7, and 10. Yes, herbs can s^ll hold heka, but my ruling would be that
it'd be a one shot deal.

Some of you may have no^ced that all the herbs had classes of one. That
was just a default value from when the le was a database. This has been
corrected now...I don't have classes for every herb, but all the ones
that are listed now are as I intended them to be. I won't say correct,
because I'd really like some feedback from the list about the classes
I've assigned.

Thats all about the herb list, but speaking of Excel, several people
menôned having created Excel character generators or J.M. aides. I
myself would really like to see those, and I'd oer to post them on my
web site for everyone to access.

All for now,
Chuck
hagendaz@prolog.net
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 00:30:51 -0400

On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Richard Crook wrote:

> If you can think of a like situaôn in M or STrait go for it. However, in
> the examples cited why not just give them the Spd you want and let it bump up
> the MTrait. Bearing in mind of course that the limit on Spd being equal to
> or less than Cap is *Only* applicable to HPs.

Where would that ruling be and why? I'm lost on that one...

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 00:28:08 +0100

>At 06:56 PM 7/8/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>>I am currently akemp^ng work on secôns of the MYTHUS Collecôn. I would
>>>appreciate it if anyone that has a vocaôn that they wish included would
>>>E-mail it to me (aikido@cris.com) along with a statement giving me
>>>permission to use it in the collecôn. I plan to release the whole
>>>collecôn into the public domain...............
>>
>>
>>Any par^cular format you favor???
>
> Yes, I am working with Windows so I can't realy accomodate MAC material
>very easily. I know many people have MACS so this may be a problem. Where
>par^cular programs are concerned Works,Word,Publisher,etc. I have no
>preference as that it is all conver^ble.
>
>Regards,
>Michael

Fortunately, we Mac people have this nivy likle "mul^-plaorm" thing
built into our computers (at least we PPC folks do.) If you just tell us
what Word Processor or spreadsheet you're working with, we can probably
accomidate you.

As for me, as long as it's in Text format or Word Perfect, I don't think
I'll have a problem with anything you send.

Ah, the limitaôns of the PC. I am so glad to hear them.

Tom
A Mac-user

Food for thought:

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 15:01:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Cap, Actual Spds, and Marvel-->Mythus

>>>Theore^cally, it seems possible to me to have a being rela^vely
fast/slow
in Mental or Spiritual traits, without being extra or less "pumped up".<<<

Actually, a good analogy might be a small "dog brain" computer which is
op^mized to perform one par^cular task incredibly fast. If you were going
to dene such a device in terms of Mental Trait, etc., it would have a
reali^vely low MTrait with a very high Spd.

I don't have my books with me, however, if you look in the OP creaôn
secôn of the Mythus handbook it actually says that the limitaôn of
Pwr/Spd being less than Cap is not applicable to creature. However, since I
don't have access to my books, I can't verify if that also applied to
OP/EP/HPGs or just MP (crikers).
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 17:45:00 -0700
Subject: World background ideas ;)

Return-Path: owner-ars-magica@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
From: VMLESPER@am.pnu.com
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 19:29:11 -0400
Subject: Paradigm Material
To: ars-magica@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
Content-Descripôn: cc:Mail note part
Sender: owner-ars-magica@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
Reply-To: ars-magica@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU

So as not to be accused of list spamming, I submit the following under the
heading of "alternate historical background"
I hope you derive some enjoyment from it.

---------------
The World According to Student Bloopers

Richard Lederer
St. Paul's School

One of the fringe benets of being an English or History teacher is
receiving the occasional jewel of a student blooper in an essay. I have
pasted together the following "history" of the world from cerâbly
genuine student bloopers collected by teachers throughout the United
States, from eighth grade through college level. Read carefully and you
will learn a lot.

The inhabitants of ancient Egypt were called mummies. They lived in the
Sarah Dessert and travelled by Camelot. The climate of the Sarah is such
that the inhabitants have to live elsewhere, so certain areas of the
dessert are cul^vated by irritaôn. The Egypâns built the Pyramids in
the shape of a huge triangular cube. The Pyramids are a range of mountains
between France and Spain.

The Bible is full of interes^ng caricatures. In the rst book of the
bible, Guinesses, Adam and Eve were created from an apple tree. One of
their children, Cain, once asked, "Am I my brother's son?" God asked
Abraham to sacrice Isaac on Mount Montezuma. Jacob, son of Isaac, stole
his brother's birth mark. Jacob was a patriarch who brought up his twelve
sons to be patriarchs, but they did not take to it. One of Jacob's sons,
Joseph, gave refuse to the Israelites.

Pharoah forced the Hebrew slaves to make bread without straw. Moses led
them to the Red Sea, where they made unleavened bread, which is bread made
without any ingredients. Averwards, Moses went up on Mount Cyanide to get
the ten commandments. David was a Hebrew king skilled at playing the liar.
He fought with the Philatelists, a race of people who lived in Biblical
^mes. Solomon, one of David's son's had 500 wives and 500 porcupines.

Without the Greeks, we wouldn't have history. The Greeks invented three
kinds of columns - Corinthian, Doric, and Ironic. They also had myths. A
myth is a female moth. One myth says that the mother of Achilles dipped
him in the River Stynx un^l he became intollerable. Achilles appears in
The Iliad, by Homer. Homer also wrote The Oddity, in which Penelope was
the last hardship that Ulysses endured on his journey. Actually, Homer was
not wriken by Homer but by another man of that name.

Socrates was a famous Greek teacher who went around giving people advice.
They killed him. Socrates died from an overdose of wedlock.

In the Olympic Games, Greeks ran races, jumped, hurled the biscuits, and
threw the java. The reward to the victor was a coral wreath. The
government of Athens was democra^c because people took the law into their
own hands, There were no wars in Greece, as the mountains were so high
that they couldn't climb over to see what their neighbors were doing. When
they fought with the Persians, the Greeks were outnumbered because the
Persians had more men.

Eventually, the Ramons conquered the Geeks. History calls people Romans
because they never stayed in one place for very long. At Roman banquets,
the guests wore garlics in their hair. Julius Ceasar ex^nguished himself
on the bakleelds of Gaul. The Ides of March murdered him because they
thought he was going to be made king. Nero was a cruel tyranny who would
torture his poor subjects by playing the ddle to them.

Then came the Middle Ages. King Alfred conquered the Dames, King Arthur
lived in the Age of Shivery, King Harold mustarded his troops before the
Bakle of Has^ngs, Joan of Arc was connonized by Bernard Shaw, and vic^ms
of the Black Death grew boobs on their necks. Finally, Magna Carta
provided that no free man should be hanged twice for the same oense.

In midevil ^mes most of the people were alliterate. The greatest writer
of the ^mes was Chaucer, who wrote many poems and verses and also wrote
literature. Another tale tells of William Tell, who shot an arrow through
an apple while standing on his son's head.

The Renaissance was an age in which more individuals felt the value of
their human being. Mar^n Luther was nailed to the church door at
Wikenburg for selling papal indulgences. He died a horrible death, being
excommunicated by a bull. It was the painter Donatello's interest in the
female nude that made him the father of the Renaissance. It was an age of
great invenôns and discoveries. Gutenburg invented the Bible. Sir
Walter Raleigh is a historical gure because he invented cigarekes.
Another important invenôn was the circulaôn of blood.

Sir Francis Drake
circumcised the world with a 100-foot clipper.

The government of England was a limited mockery. Henry VIII found walking
dicult because he had an abbess on his knee. Queen Elizabeth was the
"Virgin Queen." As a queen she was a success. When Elizabeth exposed
herself before her troops, they all shouted, "Hurrah." Then her navy went
out and defeated the Spanish Armadillo.

The greatest writer of the Renaissance was William Shakespear. Shakespear
never made much money and is famous only because of his plays. He lived at
Windsor with his merry wives, wri^ng tragedies, comedies, and errors. In
one of Shakespear's famous plays, Hamlet raôns out his situaôn by
relieving himself in a long sililoquy. In another, Lady Macbeth tries to
convince Macbeth to kill the King by akacking his manhood. Romeo and
Juliet is an example of a heroic couplet. Wri^ng at the same ^me as
Shakespear was Miguel Cervantes. He wrote Donkey Hote. The next great
writer was John Milton. Milton wrote Paradise Lost. Then his wife died
and he wrote Paradise Regained.

During the Renaissance America began. Christopher Columbus was a great
navigator who discovered America while cursing around the Atlan^c. His
ships were the Nina, the Pinta, and the Santa Fe. Later the Pilgrims
crossed the Ocean, and this was known as Pilgrims Progress. When they
landed at Plymouth Rock, they were greeted by the Indians, who came down
the hill rolling their war hoops before them. The Indian squabs carried
porpoises on their back. Many of the Indian heroes were killed, along with
their cabooses, which proved very fatal to them. The winter of 1620 was a
hard one for the seklers. Many people died, and many babies were born.
Captain John Smith was responsible for this.

One of the causes of the Revoluônary Wars was the English put tacks in
their tea. Also, the colonists would send their parcels through the post
without stamps. During the war, the Red Coats and Paul Revere was throwing
balls over stone walls. The dogs were barking and the peacocks crowing.
Finally, the colonists won the War and no longer had to pay for taxis.

Delegates from the original thirteen states formed the Contented Congress.
Thomas Jeerson, a Virgin, and Benjamin Franklin were two singers of the
Declaraôn of Independence. Franklin had gone to Boston carrying all his
clothes in his pocket and a loaf of bread under each arm. He invented
electricity by rubbing cats backwards and declared, "A horse divided
against itself cannot stand." Franklin died in 1790 and is s^ll dead.

George Washington married Martha Cus^s and in due ^me became the Father
of Our Country. Then the Cons^tuôn of the United States was adopted to
secure domes^c hos^lity. Under the Cons^tuôn the people enjoyed the
right to keep bare arms.

Abraham Lincoln became America's greatest Precedent. Lincoln's mother died
in infancy, and he was born in a log cabin that he built with his own
hands. When Lincoln was President, he wore only a tall silk hat. He said,
"In onion there is strength." Abraham Lincoln wrote the Gekysburg Address
while traveling from Washington to Gekysburg on the back of an envelope.
He also freed the slaves by signing the Emasculaôn Proclamaôn, and the
Fourteenth Amendment gave the ex-Negroes ci^zenship. But the Clue Clux
Clan would torcher and lynch the ex-Negroes and other innocent vic^ms. It
claimed it represented law and odor. On the night of April 14, 1865,
Lincoln went to the theater and got shot in his seat by one of the actors
in a moving picture show. The believed assinator was John Wilkes Booth, a
supposedly insane actor. This ruined Booth's career.

Meanwhile, in Europe, the enlightenment was a reasonable ^me. Voltare
invented electricity and also wrote a book called Candy. Gravity was
invented by Isaac Walton. It is chiey no^ceable in the Autumn, when the
apples are falling o the trees.

Bach was the most famous composer in the world, and so was Handel. Handel
was half German, half Italian, and half English. He was very large. Bach
died from 1750 to the present. Beethoven wrote music even though he was
deaf. He was so deaf he wrote loud music. He took long walks in the
forest even when everyone was calling for him. Beethoven expired in 1827
and later died for this.

France was in a very serious state. The French Revoluôn was accomplished
before it happened. The Marseillaise was the theme song of the French
Revoluôn, and it catapulted into Napoleon.

During the Napoleonic Wars, the crowned heads of Europe were trembling in
their shoes. Then the Spanish gorillas came down from the hills and nipped
at Napoleon's anks. Napoleon became ill with bladder problems and was
very tense and unrestrained. He wanted an heir to inherit his power, but
since Josephine was a baroness, she couldn't bear children.

The sun never set on the Bri^sh Empire because the Bri^sh Empire is in
the East and the sun sets in the West. Queen Victoria was the longest
queen. She sat on a thorn for 63 years. Her reclining years and nally
the end of her life were exemplatory of a great personality.
Her death was the nal event which ended her reign.

The nineteenth century was a ^me of many great invenôns and thoughts.
The invenôn of the steamboat caused a network of rivers to spring up.
Cyrus McCormick invented the McCormick raper, which did the work of a
hundred men. Samuel Morse invented a code of telepathy. Louis Pasteur
discovered a cure for rabbis. Charles Darwin was a naturalist who wrote
the Organ of the Species. Madman Curie discovered radium. And Karl Marx
became one of the Marx brothers.

The First World War, caused by the assignaôn of the Arch-Duck by a surf,
ushered in a new error in the anals of human history.

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:33:21 -0400
Subject: Spamming?

What exactly is spamming? I think it is just taking messages from somewhere
and pos^ng them somewhere else, but why would that necessarily be considered
wrong?

Wesley Miaw
World of Ar^sts Internet Services
josuah@aol.com
hkp://members.aol.com/josuah
518-439-0412
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:10:47 -0400
Subject: WEB SITE NEEDS CONTENT!

------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6DF4.3FC455A0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Gree^ngs all.. your friendly list moderator returning again with the good news!

DJOURNEYS.ORG has come back from InterNIC!

Which means.. guess what... WWW.DJOURNEYS.ORG will be up as soon as I can get some
people to churn up some content!

Anyone with some free ^me who wants to setup the DJ Web site PLEASE -EMAIL- me..
mpearson@games-online.com

I intend on seing up a Web BBS on the site as well.. :)

Please get back to me!

Mak Pearson

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AAgwIHRqdRVuuwEeAD0AAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAApPM=

------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6DF4.3FC455A0-=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:47:02 -0400
From: "Jesse G." <jgris@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEB SITE NEEDS CONTENT!

Makhew E. Pearson wrote:
>
> Gree^ngs all.. your friendly list moderator returning again with the good news!
>
> DJOURNEYS.ORG has come back from InterNIC!
>
> Which means.. guess what... WWW.DJOURNEYS.ORG will be up as soon as I can get some
> people to churn up some content!

Mak, this is grand news!

Let's try and get organized... I gure you have some ideas already? (I don't know
s**t about html-izing anything, so I'm not in. I'll just s^ck some created stu
there when it gets a-moving... :)

Excellent.

Jesse
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 21:48:44 -0700
Subject: Re: Spamming?

At 11:33 PM 7/9/96 -0400, you wrote:
>What exactly is spamming? I think it is just taking messages from somewhere
>and pos^ng them somewhere else, but why would that necessarily be considered
>wrong?
>
Who knows. I just ripped it o the Ars Magica list.

Whaddya think??

Mike

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:28:50 CDT
From: Jonathan M Thompson <wildcat@PRYSM.NET>

>Makhew E. Pearson wrote:
>>
>> Gree^ngs all.. your friendly list moderator returning again with the
good news!
>>
>> DJOURNEYS.ORG has come back from InterNIC!
>>
>> Which means.. guess what... WWW.DJOURNEYS.ORG will be up as soon as I can
get some
>> people to churn up some content!
>
>Mak, this is grand news!
>
>Let's try and get organized... I gure you have some ideas already? (I
don't know
>s**t about html-izing anything, so I'm not in. I'll just s^ck some
created stu
>there when it gets a-moving... :)
>
>Excellent.
>
>Jesse
>

I can htmlize things, but I am not a wiz or anything. I would be wlling to
give it a shot myself though
Jonathan Thompson, SCA: Jonathan MacAilpein
wildcat@prysm.net

Keeper of the Bakletech Mailing List email btech@prysm.net to subscribe
"I don't even know how to make oxygen. All I know is that it deals with plants
and ends in osis" - Lister [Red Dwarf "White Hole"]
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1993 01:39:45 PST
From: Jeye Del valle soto <pit.lord@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Hello

Hello there to all im new!
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 02:29:47 -0400

> Macs with at least 7.1 or beker I think, can read ibm formaked
>disks and les...
> Trav

And for those who don't, I have the complete MacLink translaôn library,
which allows translaôn of most PC formats into Mac and vice-versa. I've
already translated a couple of Mac les to PC for Mike Phillips and will do
the rest within a week, so I am willing to oer my services to make sure
everyone gets it in the format they can use.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 02:34:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Cap, Actual Spds, and Marvel-->Mythus

>I wasn't bearing this in mind. I guess I missed this rule. Can anyone
>explain this to me, and maybe point out some of the non-HPs who have
>Spd/Pows higher than Caps?

Skeletons, which "being Unalive, xneed not and does not have Physical
Capacity."

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:55:39 -0400
Subject: Races

How many of you have used non-human races for HP's? How do you handle
"stat" (I can't remember the Mythus term for them) creaôn for non-human
races. Also, do you just use the non-human vocaôns, or do you use other
variant vocaôns. It just seems odd to make all dwarf characters start
with the same K/S base (plus whatever K/S areas they choose).

Also, could someone tell me where any Mythus archives are (and also web pages)?
Thanks in advance.

--/Nikodemus

P.S. Does anyone in the Wash DC area play Mythus?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:04:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Hello

Jeye Del valle soto wrote:
>
> Hello there to all im new!

Hello New. I'm not... :)

Jesse
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:12:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Races

Nikodemus wrote:
>
> How many of you have used non-human races for HP's? How do you handle
> "stat" (I can't remember the Mythus term for them) creaôn for non-human
> races. Also, do you just use the non-human vocaôns, or do you use other
> variant vocaôns. It just seems odd to make all dwarf characters start
> with the same K/S base (plus whatever K/S areas they choose).

Nik
No kidding it seems odd! :) What I have done is make non-human HP's work
just like human ones coming from dierent backgrounds, with a few
addiôns. I've essenâlly created my own vocaôns, such as Sylvanor
Conjuror. Give them K/S Areas just like regular Vocaôns, give them a
power if that ips up your kilt (hi Doyce), and then come up with some
racial akributes, such as a quirk or counter-quirk (such as "All dwarves
are afraid of heights") or heck, a few of each. Then, decide what this
non-human's ATTRIBUTES would be compared to a human. For instance, the
Sylvanor remember things far beker than you and I. However, their culture
is one of learning and science, causing or being caused by their lower
Spiritual abiliês. Then put that in game terms (+3 MMCap, MMPow, MMSpd,
-3 to all Spiritual ATT's).

And then you can come up with all kinds of neat background informaôn about
the race; it's history, preferences, society, that sort of thing. And
that's about it. It's fun, it's easy, and it makes a lot more sense (to me
anyway, I'm sure someone will disagree!) :)

Jesse
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:41:45 -0400
Subject: Re: World background ideas ;)


>The First World War, caused by the assignaôn of the Arch-Duck by a surf,
>ushered in a new error in the anals of human history.
>
>
>
>Chris Calvert
>
>calvert@ucla.edu
>
>

Ouch! "What mortal men are these..."
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:06:50 -0400

> MMM was published by Tri-Gee Enterprises, not GDW. I do
> not know what kind of copyright artrangement Tri-Gee made.

According to the seklement, TSR got the rights to the Tri-Gee stu,
too. So far, it looks like TSR owns the en^rety of that mags, with the
excepôn of a few ar^cles copyrighted specically by Mr. Gygax. The
seklement lists exactly which ar^cles are now TSR's, so I'm going to dig
up a copy of the mags and see which ones _aren't_ TSR's.

> While we're at it, my friend and I never received issue

> six (electronic). We subscribed for six issues. Having
> never been recompensated for the lost issue, I wonder if
> TSR is libal for breach of contract. Hmmm. :)

According to the seklement, all subscribers (of MMM and Journeys)
were supposed to have been refunded their money for any unpublished issues
- but it was to be refunded by the original publisher, not TSR.

> I was digging through some of my older RPG stu the other
> day, when I found my reciept for my Journeys
> subscripôn!! Now I paid for a full twelve issues,
> star^ng with issue 4, the only one I recieved. It is
> possible that ve and six were mailed to me, but I
> somehow never got them. So EGS owes me at least nine
> issues of Journeys.(At least)
> Sean, what do I do??

Um ... was Journeys published by GDW? If so, you're going to have a
hard ^me geing a refund. :(

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:09:25 -0400

Well, I guess this is where I step in. :)
I'd love to work on a DJourneys website. I can do all the HTML and many
graphics, but you guys will have to provide me with content. I guess this job
will be free then, so I can't provide the same speed of delivery as I might
on some others.

Wesley Miaw
josuah@aol.com
518-439-0412
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:10:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Spamming?

I've seen some parts of that message before. :) Seems to get to everyone at
some point.

Wesley Miaw
josuah@aol.com
518-439-0412
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:39:08 GMT
Subject: Re: World background ideas ;)
In-Reply-To: <199607100045.RAA24130@rho.ben2.ucla.edu>

>
> The government of England was a limited mockery....
>

Things haven't changed much then.

Mark Goode

Leicester
England.

m.goode@dial.pipex.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:37:08 -0400

Wesley
Cool beans, talk to Mak Pearson and work it out, eh? :)

I would LOVE to do some content for it. Michael John Weaver, can you
provide us with your list (and reasoning) which you had for your
"compilaôn"? Not that I want to knock o your plans, which are
perfectly meritable, it's just that your list was a great star^ng point,
and could help Wesley with "packaging" and the rest of us with a sort of
checklist...

Jesse


=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:36:39 -0700
Subject: Re: Spamming? & ULs

>What exactly is spamming? I think it is just taking messages from somewhere
>and pos^ng them somewhere else, but why would that necessarily be considered
>wrong?
>
>Wesley Miaw
>World of Ar^sts Internet Services
>josuah@aol.com
>hkp://members.aol.com/josuah
>518-439-0412

Sending inappropriate material to a list of folks is spamming.

Examples: warning people of a virus (which happens to be a hoax), asking
people to send a bussiness card to a sick child (that is not really sick
anymore), warning parents of LSD laced tatoos (another hoax), telling
people how they can can make money fast, etc.
Hmmm, interes^ng that my examples are also mostly urban legends too.

Anyone interested in urban legends check out
hkp://www.best.com:80/~debunk/. It is a good site.

Cheers,
John
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1993 15:42:19 PST
From: Jeye Del valle soto <pit.lord@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Hello

ha,ha,ha.Thanks
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:41:41 -0400

Wesley, Jesse, Mak, everyone-

I'd be happy to submit the herbs list to the Ocial site, as well as
anything else I can come up with! I can do some HTML, and I'm okay at
graphics. Just tell me where to send stu!

Chuck
hagendaz@prolog.net
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:43:45 -0400

> According to the seklement, TSR got the rights to the Tri-Gee stu,
>too. So far, it looks like TSR owns the en^rety of that mags, with the
>excepôn of a few ar^cles copyrighted specically by Mr. Gygax. The
>seklement lists exactly which ar^cles are now TSR's, so I'm going to dig
>up a copy of the mags and see which ones _aren't_ TSR's.

Those would be the six "Town Crier" ar^cles. Wherin Gary speaks (in
order), out against the detractors of DJ (and the fact the GenCon game
convenôn is misnumbered), on the subject of "Live Acôn RPGs" and how
similar gaming like that began as a kid, on the subject of how he and Don
Kaye developed a system on their own as kids similar to Wargaming with
gures, on the death and departure of Hugh B., the guy who was the
inspiraôn for the Quasi-deity Heward (of Mys^c Organ fame), where EGG
akacks A.S.S.H.O.L.E.S. (known as the Americans Suppor^ng Statues Holding
Omnipotent Law Enforcement Sacred) and laments the decline of educaôn and
why that may aect the like for DJ, and nally out against everything
declared "P.C.", what he actually calls "intellectual correctness".

Cool columns. But nothing there is really relevant to DJ, so don't feel
like you missed anything.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:23:09 -0400

At 02:37 PM 7/10/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Wesley>
>Cool beans, talk to Mak Pearson and work it out, eh? :)
>
>I would LOVE to do some content for it.

Michael John Weaver, can you
>provide us with your list (and reasoning) which you had for your
>"compilaôn"?

(MJW)
First the reason: Many new vocaôns,player created rules,etc. are scakered
over the net. I thought it would be a good idea to bring all this
informaôn together not into one web site but into one le. Then people
could print it out and have a kind of MYTHUS update book. The other reason
for this is if people insist on changing the MYTHUS game, when they have new
players perhaps those players will not be lost by the new rules.(if they
have access to this le).

The list:

1. Rule correcôns (where the book has made simple prin^ng errors)

2. Rule clearicaôns (is it a spell or charm and suppor^ng reason why)

3. New vocaôns (seperated into HP's and OP's)

4. Adventures,complete and ready to run. (here the web site would be more
useful as that these could be
updated on a regular basis)

5. Conversions:other games into MYTHUS(making it cross genre)

6. Player created rules(presented as opônal)

7. New Magick(possibly only including new cas^ngs)

8.(added) New monsters(this could possibly replace #4 in a text le)
This would be limited to non mundane creatures as that the
Beasâry has those covered.

Not that I want to knock o your plans, which are
>perfectly meritable,

Thank you, I thought so.

it's just that your list was a great star^ng point,
>and could help Wesley with "packaging" and the rest of us with a sort of
>checklist...
>
I would be glad to help. Please keep in mind that since the collecôn is
des^ned for release into the public domain I don't realy care who completes
it.(less work for me) I may however remind those that forget that the
Original idea was mine :)

>Jesse
>
>Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 17:49:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Races

At 07:55 AM 7/10/96 -0400, you wrote:
>How many of you have used non-human races for HP's?

I have a player who has a Dwarf HP.

How do you handle
>"stat" (I can't remember the Mythus term for them) creaôn for non-human
>races.

There are not(at least in the MYTHUS book) any racial adjustments to
akributes for the non-human HP. Rolling akribute scores are handled just
like human HP's. However, all HP's that are non-human do have some
minor(according to me) innate Heka power.(tables on pgs.94-95) If I am wrong
on this and missing the rule somewhere in the book please let me know.(anybody)

Also, do you just use the non-human vocaôns, or do you use other
>variant vocaôns. It just seems odd to make all dwarf characters start
>with the same K/S base (plus whatever K/S areas they choose).

I only allowed my group the choice of non-human HP's(opônal anyway) as
they are printed in the book. I did this because I have a fairly new group
of players. I think people should learn the rules as they exist before they
begin changing them. However, the dwarf clearly customized himself as a
weapon/armor smith. I see no par^cular problem with crea^ng an Elven
Priest or anything else once the group is familiar enough with the rules.
>
>Also, could someone tell me where any Mythus archives are (and also web pages)?
>Thanks in advance.
>
>
>--/Nikodemus
>
>P.S. Does anyone in the Wash DC area play Mythus?

There is a classied players secôns on Mike Phillip's MYTHUS page, you
might try adver^sing there for players.
hkp://128.239.21.1/~msphil/mythus/mythus.html

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver

>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:02:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Spamming? & ULs

Thanks for the examples. I understand now. Then, wasn't I spamming to this
list when I asked what spamming is? I sent a quesôn to a list that had
nothing to do with the list. :P

Wesley Miaw
josuah@aol.com
518-439-0412
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:11:22 -0400
Subject: Mak Pearson: I need Info

Okay, what am I doing here, Mike? The way I gure it, it will be easiest for
all of us if there is an incoming directory so uploads can be made, and
checked out before being released to the public. Don't want any Microsov
Macro viruses, do we?
Also, what is the full URL of your domain? Uppercase/Lowercase maker (UINX
systems)? What is the server running, what system: Windows 95, NT, System
7.5, LINUX, etc.? Is this a REAL server, or a virtual domain? Can I FTP
stu? What server sovware? Are SSI or CGI allowed?
I'll probably think of more later.

Wesley Miaw
josuah@aol.com
518-439-0412
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:01:06 +0100
From: Marco Corbella <ar08521@FA.GEIDAI.AC.JP>
Subject: Re: MYTHUS update book le

You wrote:
>
>(MJW)
>First the reason: Many new vocaôns,player created rules,etc. are scakered
>over the net. I thought it would be a good idea to bring all this
>informaôn together not into one web site but into one le. Then people
>could print it out and have a kind of MYTHUS update book. The other reason
>for this is if people insist on changing the MYTHUS game, when they have new
>players perhaps those players will not be lost by the new rules.(if they
>have access to this le).

I nd this idea great!
Since few days I'm watching your discussions about MMM, 'cause I'm fond of
Role Playing Games, but I don't have any material about it and I would like
very much to know more.
When this le will be ready I will nally be able to play also here in Japan.

Bye, and thank you all.

Marco Corbella, an italian in Japan.

P.S.: Mithus will never die! "Shinpai shinai" (don't worry).
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:59:16 -0400
Subject: Archives

Is there a site/web page with Mythus archives? I'm looking for more
vocaôns and creatures.

--/Nikodemus
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:40:56 +0300
From: Kauâinen Ani <anolka@UTU.FI>
Eccles" at Jul 10, 96 02:29:47 am

> And for those who don't, I have the complete MacLink translaôn library,
> which allows translaôn of most PC formats into Mac and vice-versa. I've
> already translated a couple of Mac les to PC for Mike Phillips and will do
> the rest within a week, so I am willing to oer my services to make sure
> everyone gets it in the format they can use.
>
> Don

Can you use just plain ascii, HTML or some other UNIVERSAL form...
I am unable (and unwilling) to use Windows or Word, unless it's
unavoidable :)

Kautsu.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 13:42:12 -0400

> Can you use just plain ascii, HTML or some other UNIVERSAL form...
>I am unable (and unwilling) to use Windows or Word, unless it's
>unavoidable :)
>
> Kautsu.

Yep. In fact, Mike said the HTML version I did for him was surprisingly
good, beker than the WP 5.1 translaôn. In plain ASCII the formaing will
be lost, so you'll have to do quite a bit of extra work to make it usable.
However, I will make a plain text version.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:09:00 -0400

On Fri, 12 Jul 1996, Donald Eccles wrote:

> > Can you use just plain ascii, HTML or some other UNIVERSAL form...
> >I am unable (and unwilling) to use Windows or Word, unless it's
> >unavoidable :)
> >
> > Kautsu.
>
> Yep. In fact, Mike said the HTML version I did for him was surprisingly
> good, beker than the WP 5.1 translaôn. In plain ASCII the formaing will
> be lost, so you'll have to do quite a bit of extra work to make it usable.
> However, I will make a plain text version.
>
> Don

HTML (or, beker, SGML) is The Right Way(tm) to go these days, if for no
other reason than there are almost no plaorms lev which can't read an
HTML le and present it in a readable manner (and even then, one can
create a simple stripping macro that turns it back into plain text).
Plus, you get neat indexing features, and the actual storage format is
plain ASCII text (with your choice of line delimiters), making it
extremely cross-plaorm.

ObMYTHUS:
HMTLIZE RITUAL (Technomancy, Grade III)
Time: Indenite Other Heka Costs:
Area: 1 document R&D: Nil
Distance: Touch Other: Nil
E/F/M: By means of this cas^ng, the Techomancer transcribes a
hand-wriken manuscript onto a piece of iron ore, by subtly altering the
structure of the rock to hold a universal form of the document within its
magne^c pakern. The Grade I Technomancy cas^ng BROWSEHTML Charm (or
the more impressive NAVIGATEHTML Cantrip or EXPLOREHTML Formula) is
needed to view it.

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 18:24:30 -0400

Hi all...

Mak's asked me to handle at least the main skeleton of the layout of the
site. So I've placed a brief "shell" up at

hkp://www.djourneys.org

I'd like to know what you think. Yes, I am aware of its incompleteness (add
the hyperlinks to the submenus, x the ^tle graphic, add a Home bukon,
etc.) What I'm looking for is its appearance in the various browsers,
lower-depth color (I use a 24-bit color palake for designing), and various
other features.

I'm trying to s^ck to standards. I'm suppor^ng the 3.2 skeleton supported
by the W3C, plus Frames (as Netscape supports them) and Stylesheets (a
standard implemented by IE 3.0) I've viewed the site so far on a PC in
Netscape 3.0b5, Microsov Internet Explorer 3.0b1, and Mosaic 2.1.

Is this a suitable format? Comments are welcomed.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 18:45:57 -0400

<<
What I'm looking for is its appearance in the various browsers,
lower-depth color (I use a 24-bit color palake for designing), and various
other features.
>>

I hope the 24-bit was only for designing. Any images put directly on the page
should be 8-bit or less dithered interlaced GIFs. Downloadable les should
be JPEG, 24-bit.
I really like the Banner Graphic. What font did you use for that? Graphics
as well as the text links would be nice for the What's New . . . Feedback.
Imagemap?
I'd use tags for some things instead of emphasized, since
emphasized text doesn't catch people's eyes; perhaps the Mythus, Unhallowed,
and Changeling.
As long as you op^mize for Netscape, you'll be ne. Since this isn't a
major "business" site, you don't need a Text, Non-Netscape, and Netscape
subcategories. However, since it is a virtual domain, it would be
professional to do so. My business provides all three.
Why are you puing a home bukon on the home page?

Good start! Keep expanding, and this is going to be great!

Wesley Miaw
josuah@aol.com
518-439-0412
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 23:45:35 -0400

>
>I hope the 24-bit was only for designing. Any images put directly on the
>page should be 8-bit or less dithered interlaced GIFs. Downloadable les
>should be JPEG, 24-bit.

I've been using JPEGs rather than GIFs since I feel they dither beker. The
problem with Mul^ple GIFs is they tend to want to match the pallete, and if
you mix a lot of them, they can look a bit ugly.

>I really like the Banner Graphic. What font did you use for that? Graphics
>as well as the text links would be nice for the What's New . . . Feedback.
>Imagemap?

Fonts were a combinaôn of one called Knight (the small text) and I believe
Noingham (DJ).

I am keeping text links on the main page while providing a graphic imagemap
in the lev frame. This prevents redundancy. Those not using a browser
that supports frames would probably dislike large images.

> As long as you op^mize for Netscape, you'll be ne. Since this isn't a
>major "business" site, you don't need a Text, Non-Netscape, and Netscape
>subcategories. However, since it is a virtual domain, it would be
>professional to do so. My business provides all three.

I take a dierent approach to design. I work with a set level, standard
and then work on both backwards compa^bility and cuing edge--as much as I
can allow. I don't try to dierenâte between Netscape and others so
much, but I aim for the Netscape/IE range. In fact, the site IMO looks
best using IE 3.0, which supports Stylesheets and allows me a bit more
control over a few things like line-spacing and margins. (Netscape will
support them, with 4.0 I hope)

> Why are you puing a home bukon on the home page?

Not on the home page. The navigaôn frame. The navigaôn frame will
contain all the "Level 1" links.

>Good start! Keep expanding, and this is going to be great!

Well, that's now up to our content providers. <Grin>.

What I am aiming to do is provide a form of "standard" for the layout of the
web site, so it's easy to add stu. Once a structure is developed, others
can take over edi^ng if and when I must leave. Think of it as seing up
the roots of editoral/desktop publishing.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 00:10:08 -0400


<<
I've been using JPEGs rather than GIFs since I feel they dither beker. The
problem with Mul^ple GIFs is they tend to want to match the pallete, and if
you mix a lot of them, they can look a bit ugly.
>>

JPEGs don't dither beker in my experience. Yes, mul^ple GIFs want the same
paleke, which is why you give them the same paleke when you reduce their
bit depth. GIFs are also the only ones that run interlaced, as well as
transparent if need be. The interlaced GIF is more professional, since it
gives the browser real-^me feedback.

<<
I don't try to dierenâte between Netscape and others so
much, but I aim for the Netscape/IE range. In fact, the site IMO looks best
using IE 3.0, which supports Stylesheets and allows me a bit more control
over a few things like line-spacing and margins. (Netscape will support
them, with 4.0 I hope)
>>

That's a good approach, since a very, very large percentage of users use
Netscape or Microsov Internet Explorer. AOL has the 3rd largest usage, I
believe, or perhaps Quarterdeck. Anyway, AOL is now basically upda^ng with
Netscape.

Wesley Miaw
josuah@aol.com
518-439-0412
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 00:41:19 -0400

JohnI looked at the page in Netscape - looks great! I don't really like frames,
to be honest ,but I can deal with them. However, my one gripe is thus: I
also tried the page in Cyberdog (great internet soluôn for us Mac folks),
and _none_ of the links showed up. I've had no problems before with
Cyberdog with standard pages, so I'm not sure why this is. If I have to use
a seperate browser for the page, I will, but I'd like to be able to s^ck
with the dog. In other words, if its not on your end, don't worry about it.

Thanks for puing in the work! Keep up the good design.
Charles
hagendaz@prolog.net

--------------------------------------------------This message was created and sent using the Cyberdog Mail System
--------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 01:42:26 +0100
Subject: O Topic: Cyberdog

>John>I looked at the page in Netscape - looks great! I don't really like frames,
>to be honest ,but I can deal with them. However, my one gripe is thus: I
>also tried the page in Cyberdog (great internet soluôn for us Mac folks),
>and _none_ of the links showed up. I've had no problems before with
>Cyberdog with standard pages, so I'm not sure why this is. If I have to use
>a seperate browser for the page, I will, but I'd like to be able to s^ck
>with the dog. In other words, if its not on your end, don't worry about it.
>

Hey Charles. Where can I get a copy of Cyberdog? Is it available on the
Apple Website, or do I have to buy it?

>Thanks for puing in the work! Keep up the good design.
>Charles
>hagendaz@prolog.net
>
Tom

Food for thought:

=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 03:36:00 -0400
Subject: Re: No Subject (Bandwidth)


snip

<<
>I don't try to dierenâte between Netscape and others so

>much, but I aim for the Netscape/IE range. In fact, the site IMO looks
best
>using IE 3.0, which supports Stylesheets and allows me a bit more control
>over a few things like line-spacing and margins. (Netscape will support
>them, with 4.0 I hope)
>>>
>
>That's a good approach, since a very, very large percentage of users use
>Netscape or Microsov Internet Explorer. AOL has the 3rd largest usage, I
>believe, or perhaps Quarterdeck. Anyway, AOL is now basically upda^ng with
>Netscape.

Guys,
I really do appreciate the work you are doing for the game, but... How about
discussing the technical details via private mail rather than on the list?

Thanks,

Jason
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 12:28:34 -0400
Subject: Jessie: Renaissance Fair

Hey, Jessie. Remember how you asked me if there were any Renaissance Fair's
over here? Well, I found one. One of my friends akended one in Sterling, NY.
Seems they hold one every weekend during the summer.

Wesley Miaw
josuah@aol.com
518-439-0412
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 00:09:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Jessie: Renaissance Fair

The Faire I akend is in Tuxedo Ny...BTW...
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:09:55 -0400
Subject: Mythus World & Besâry, etc

I was wondering if anyone out there who plays Mythus uses a world setup
other than AErth. I prefer worlds that are less civilized, as they seem to
t my style of GMing more. What worlds do you use. Also, are there any
GMs who run campaigns set in the more "standard" fantasy world (i.e. similar
to AD&D, Rolemaster, etc)?

Has anyone brought up the subject of crea^ng an online Monster Besâry?
The few monsters we get with _Necropolis_ just don't do it for me, and the
Besâry, though excellent, is mostly "natural" animals. I think we could
convert a lot of the "Standard" T$R monsters (no, I don't mean the
execu^ves at T$R, I mean the MM creatures). I'd be happy to contribute (as
I've already started the project for myself).

--/Nikodemus
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 09:54:55 -0500
From: Dan Williamson <dtw@IDM.COM>
Subject: Re: Mythus World & Besâry, etc
In-Reply-To: <199607151407.HAA02595@hungary.it.earthlink.net> from "Nikodemus"
at Jul 15, 96 10:09:55 am

> I was wondering if anyone out there who plays Mythus uses a world setup
> other than AErth. I prefer worlds that are less civilized, as they seem to
> t my style of GMing more. What worlds do you use. Also, are there any
> GMs who run campaigns set in the more "standard" fantasy world (i.e. similar
> to AD&D, Rolemaster, etc)?

I've used my own world OtherWorld and T$R's Greyhawk seing for Mythus.
Greyhawk worked well, I just had to convert the monsters that I used as
I needed them. I think I only made stats for various humanoids - Nothing
formal. I don't go in for games with a lot of fantasy monsters in them,
though that might change. Lately I've been concentra^ng on my OtherWorld
seing.

Dan.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 11:43:41 -0400
Subject: Request

Hi all,

Okay, I've done the iniâl layout of the site. It should look ne, and I
may have xed the Cyberdog problem (E-Mail me MAC users).

To save "bandwidth" (hate that term), please E-Mail me if you have any
technical problems/comments/suggesôns other than general layout quesôns.
I s^ll like discussing here whether or not the site is organized right and
if its what you want.

I won't be able to work on it for about 10 days or so, but aver that I can
spend some ^me. Thus, I want you to E-Mail me any ar^cles you want posted
to the web site, star^ng this weekend. (Don't rush it now!!!)

The best format you can give me is either ASCII or HTML. It makes the
conversion process go a lot quicker. I can accept akachments via my account.

I plan to add at least one submiked le/day aver that.

One nal suggesôn. I think it would be best, if you send me ar^cles,
not to refer to TSR as T$R or the like. What I'm kind of hoping is, once
TSR gets around to crea^ng a true web site, that Mak's site could become
the ocial "mirror" or even the site for "Mythus/DJ". (It might actually
make sense for them to have a seperate site for Mythus). (I'm only working
on it right now because we're not compe^ng or viola^ng TSR un^l they get
their own website setup, thus it's legal).

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 17:12:25 -0400

>Has anyone brought up the subject of crea^ng an online Monster Besâry?
>The few monsters we get with _Necropolis_ just don't do it for me, and the
>Besâry, though excellent, is mostly "natural" animals. I think we could
>convert a lot of the "Standard" T$R monsters (no, I don't mean the
>execu^ves at T$R, I mean the MM creatures). I'd be happy to contribute (as
>I've already started the project for myself).

Well, yes and no. That idea has surfaced a few ^mes, from several sources.
Here is what already exists:

Dave Newton uploaded his Phaeree Besâry notes to Mike Phillips' Web site
some^me last year. I've been going through them and cleaning them up, since
they are really just a skeleton which was meant to be lled out later.
There are stats for most of the crikers, although on a lot of them I don't
think these were the nal values, since almost every Faeree criker has an M
TRAIT & S TRAIT of either 70 or 140. In any event, there are also some
notes, and Part One of the project is to integrate the informaôn published
it Necropolis and the few issues of MMM. I'm doing that now, as ^me permits
(I'm up to the leker "F"). I will post that to Mike's FTP site when I'm
nished.

Part Two would consist of puing esh on the skeleton by lling in the
missing values with some data. Like you, I gured the easiest way to do
that was to convert the ideas from some other game (guess which one) in a
systema^c fashion. I got as far as making a list of which crikers exist on
both systems and which ones already have values. However, I think that
project deserves quite a bit of thought. Take, for example, the sprite as
described in AD&D and Mythus. Although there are similarites, there are also
important dierences. So I would want that part to be the most detailed. I
think that, on a spare-^me basis, I wouldn't expect that to be done any^me
this year (unless I win the lokery or something).

Part Three would consist of distribu^ng the nal product, either in print
or electronically. If the laker were used, it would have to be converted to
the formats everyone can use. That shouldn't be an insurmountable problem.

So, there you have it. I think if Michael Weaver wants to follow through
with his Mythus book idea (and there won't be legal repercussions from TSR in
so doing), this would make a valuable addendum.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 17:02:04 -0500
From: Jason Bilbrey <jbilbrey@HEALTH1.UWSP.EDU>
Subject: 2 quesôns...

I have 2 quesôns that I'm sure people will be able to answer very quickly...

1. Are only Dweormercraevers and Priests allow to roll for full
prac^ôner status or is any character with a mental(or spiritual) score of
101+ allowed to role for full prac^ôner status that has the magick and
dweomercraev K/S areas???

2. For the enhanced STEEP opôn...let's say I have 5 K/S areas I can add to
my mental skills...can I use all 5 slots for enhancing my exisi^ng K/S
areas, or just 1 of the 5?
----------------------------------------------------------------Jason Edward Bilbrey
jbilbrey@health1.uwsp.edu
hkp://wellness.uwsp.edu/authors/jbilbrey/
----------------------------------------------------------------"Failure is not in falling, but in refusing to get up..."
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 00:35:24 -0400


Nikodemus wanted to know about other worlds.

I think that a lot of the JM's around here run their own kind of thing.
There are a couple excepôns I can think of... :)

My world has been an akempt to create a sort of ancient planet, one
where civilizaôns have lived and died for over 10,000 years, and only
a couple have remained. Technology has come and gone, such that most
places have no knowledge of complex machinery, but some of it exists
(things like crossbows and plate armors).

It's all a maker of personal taste and style.

As far as monsters go, I think the best idea would be to keep the
Phaeree stu around (unbelievably cool), but to try and complete it
will be next to impossible. I'd just suggest that we get together all
the weird monsters we've used and get them up on the site. That would
be a bit of crea^vity and some original ideas! Interes^ngly, I for
one, have used mostly humanoid opponents in my games...

Jesse
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 02:38:18 -0400
From: "Michae J. Weaver" <aikido@CRIS.COM>
Subject: Re: 2 quesôns...

At 05:02 PM 7/15/96 -0500, you wrote:
>I have 2 quesôns that I'm sure people will be able to answer very quickly...
>
>1. Are only Dweormercraevers and Priests allow to roll for full
>prac^ôner status or is any character with a mental(or spiritual) score of
>101+ allowed to role for full prac^ôner status that has the magick and
>dweomercraev K/S areas???

Only Dweomercraevers and Priests are allowed to roll for full prac^ce AND
these vocaôns must be selected before the roll. Also, if you read the HP
creaôn rules carefully you will note that it is possible to have a Failed
Priest or Dweomercraever because of terrible rolls crea^ng low akribute
scores that do not equal 101 or above. This is because a vocaôn must be
chosen prior to any akribute rolls being made.(MYTHUS pg.59)
>
>2. For the enhanced STEEP opôn...let's say I have 5 K/S areas I can add to
>my mental skills...can I use all 5 slots for enhancing my exisi^ng K/S
>areas, or just 1 of the 5?

As I understand the rules on pg.97(MYTHUS) one may choose NOT to take ONE
K/S area "...your gamemaster may allow you to choose not to take one
addiônal K/S Area due your Heroic Persona's Vocaônal TRAIT,but instead
to spend those points among your HP's other K/S areas in that TRAIT." Thus,
you may use just ONE. Also you may add no fewer than 2 and no more than 6
STEEP points to any K/S area.

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver

>---------------------------------------------------------------->Jason Edward Bilbrey
>jbilbrey@health1.uwsp.edu
>hkp://wellness.uwsp.edu/authors/jbilbrey/
>---------------------------------------------------------------->"Failure is not in falling, but in refusing to get up..."
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 08:18:09 -0500
Subject: tsr

A distressing tale:

I was looking at my Foo ghters CD and inside I no^ced the following:

"The XZ38 disin^grator pistol (on the cover) is used by permission of
TSR, inc., licensee of the owner of all rights in the pistol."

they're everywhere man.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 09:39:29 -0400
Subject: Re: tsr

At 08:18 AM 7/16/96 -0500, Eric Medalis wrote:
>A distressing tale:
>
>I was looking at my Foo ghters CD and inside I no^ced the following:
>
>"The XZ38 disin^grator pistol (on the cover) is used by permission of
>TSR, inc., licensee of the owner of all rights in the pistol."

>
>they're everywhere man.
>
Sounds like somebody took Art from a TSR Product. I suspect it was either a
Gamma World Release or a Buck Rogers one--and I suspect the laker.

Hey--means that Alterna^ve Rock loves RPGs...

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:01:17 -0400

<STUFF DELETED>

>I've used my own world OtherWorld and T$R's Greyhawk seing for Mythus.
>Greyhawk worked well, I just had to convert the monsters that I used as
>I needed them. I think I only made stats for various humanoids - Nothing
>formal. I don't go in for games with a lot of fantasy monsters in them,
>though that might change. Lately I've been concentra^ng on my OtherWorld
>seing.
>
>Dan.
>

I understand what you mean about too many monsters. When I played AD&D I
liked the Monster Manual, and the decent monsters in the Fiend Folio (there
were only about 10 of them), but I felt that once the 2nd ediôn started to
come out, T$R churned out far too many monsters, especially intelligent
races. I have a hard ^me imagining a planet with 30+ intelligent races on
it (in a fantasy seing) being anything but a bakleeld. However, I do
like a healthy mix of fantasy beasts. I generally make humanoids the
toughest opponents in my campaigns (since nothing challenges skilled humans
like other skilled humans), but I like monsters like demons, elementals
(including efree^, etc), undead, constructs, the roper, the beholder, and
various extra-planar oddiês. Most monsters of those types would be
important parts of an adventure (rather than just more "wandering melees").
"Side irritaôns" would be provided by such monsters as various dangerous
wild animals and minor humanoid villains.

--/Nikodemus
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:16:02 -0400


>I understand what you mean about too many monsters. When I played AD&D I
>liked the Monster Manual, and the decent monsters in the Fiend Folio (there
>were only about 10 of them), but I felt that once the 2nd ediôn started to
>come out, T$R churned out far too many monsters, especially intelligent
>races.

I don't think it was so much that, as TSR amalgamizing the various races
found in their now near-dozen or so campaign seings. That caused a load.
Worse, designers see a monster or three they desire and place them in their
campaign world. (Greenwood loved Wizshades, for instance).

>I have a hard ^me imagining a planet with 30+ intelligent races on
>it (in a fantasy seing) being anything but a bakleeld. However, I do
>like a healthy mix of fantasy beasts. I generally make humanoids the
>toughest opponents in my campaigns (since nothing challenges skilled humans
>like other skilled humans), but I like monsters like demons, elementals
>(including efree^, etc), undead, constructs, the roper, the beholder, and
>various extra-planar oddiês. Most monsters of those types would be
>important parts of an adventure (rather than just more "wandering melees").
>"Side irritaôns" would be provided by such monsters as various dangerous
>wild animals and minor humanoid villains.
>
You reminded me of Gary Gygax in what he said at the end of Saga of Old
City. Monsters should be peppered intellegently.

One of the things great about the way Gary set up AErth is the separaôn of
Monsters from the realm of humans. If you like Fantasy beasts, make more
sojourns to Phaeree or have the laker come to AErth more oven. There are
a few intellegent subterreanian races, but they live below, are fewer in
number, and don't always cross humanity's path.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 16:00:10 EST
From: David Smith <smiky@DJSA.COM>
Subject: Registraôn Form

Hello!

This message is the only no^ce you will receive regarding
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Please complete the form below and email it back to us.

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========================
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========================

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======================

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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:59:51 -0500
In-Reply-To: <199607161359.JAA03540@sweden.it.earthlink.net> from "Nikodemus"
at Jul 16, 96 10:01:17 am

<Crea^ve scissor work>

> I have a hard ^me imagining a planet with 30+ intelligent races on
> it (in a fantasy seing) being anything but a bakleeld.

Neat idea! I may have to try this one. A seing with gobs of
intelligent races all ghi^ng with each other for eventual
dominaôn of the planet. Of course they will not realize that
is the goal or the stakes. All they will know is that the
Elves are hos^le to any akempts at incursion into their lands
and the Dwarves have a nasty tendency to kill those who wander
into their mountain territory. I would have to include Elves,
Humans, Dwarves, Lizard Men (anyone remember the Rep^lliads?),
Orcs, for starters.

Dan.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:51:19 -0700
Subject: Re: Registraôn Form

>Hello!
>
>This message is the only no^ce you will receive regarding
>registering your Web Site in DJSA's Who's Who Guide - 1997.

What is this s*%&#??

How did it get here??

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:45:51 -0700
Subject: Liches Revisited/Mythus World & Besâry

>I was wondering if anyone out there who plays Mythus uses a world setup
>other than AErth.

I use Aerth as a VERY loose frame. I intensely disliked the high
"civilizaôn" levels, which seemed to me to just replace modern technology
with Heka. The number of "Universiês" in Europe/Pan Mediterranean area
can be counted on one hand, those being Academie Sorcerie de Ys(yes I
screwed it up, ask me if I care), a university in Aegypt, one in Southern
France, and one or two others(maybe). I reduced all populaôn g.s to one
tenth listed values and removed many "Heka items possessed by states".

Wizardry is usually learned either through direct appren^ceship/one on one
tutoring(for the noble classes), or at Towers of Wizardry(which are composed
of SOME schools. No tower teaches all schools. All towers are independent
en^ês, usually holding a ef of varying size, unless sponsored by the
ruling class, in which case the tower provides some(few!) Wizards in war^me
and other services in peace^me to the crown.

Some naôns are theocracies, one is a magiocracy, etc. There are
wars/conicts raging in three dierent areas(at least)
The Slaugh and Goblinkind hold above ground Naôns which are responsible
for two of the three wars in progress, the other being the Wars between the
Celts/Gaelics and the Norse on Avillonia(Lyonesse is the name of Gaelic held
south-western Avillonia w/ capital at Camelot). The Gaelic Knights akack
from the west and the Highlander Celts and thier Druids akack from the North.
(Bakle!!!! I love it!!! Well, as least watching it. BTW
Lionheart Rules!!!!)

Generally, I use some Greyhawk stu(deiês, lots of adventures(all by
Gygax/Lakoa/etc) and some FR stu(Waterdeep, Myth Drannor, Magister,

adventures, mostly by Greenwood, Niles,and Grubb).

I also have heavy Howardian(Hyborian) inuences(or is it Hyperboria?? I
always forget which is the country and which is the world)

As if thats not enough, I also use Al-Quadim for my Arabian stu(mostly
Niles stu), some Ars Magica supplements(for medieval life/living, house
magic system, and specic locale supplements), some Pendragon ideas(for
closer to history locale supplements), and now I have Aria and am trying to
incorporate elements of that.

Oh Yeah.

So, do I use a set up other than Aerth? Ummm......kinda.

I prefer worlds that are less civilized, as they seem to
>t my style of GMing more.

As do I.

Making Liches

Ed Greenwood did something on Liches in Lords of Darkness(LOD, printed 1988)
way out of print, there are probably 3 or four copies I know of for sale on
the net
Oh Yay I love typing
copyright E...I mean TSR

The uge for immortality is so strong in some powerful mages and priest mages
that they aspire to lichdom, despite its horrible side eects and the
ususal loss of friends and living companionship. Lichdom must be prepared
for in life; no true lich ever comes about "naturally".

Becoming a Lich

To become a Lich, a Magic user or Magic-user/cleric must akain the 18th
level of experience as a magic user. The candidate for lichdom must have
access to the following spells:Magic Jar Enchant an item, and Trap the soul.
Nulanthoe's Ninemen, a vh level magic User spell(in FR boxed set) which
seeks to preserve corpses against decay, keeping them strong and supple as
in life, is also required.
The process of akaining Lichdom is ruined if the candidate dies at
ant ^me during it. EVen if successful ressurecôn follows, the process
must be started anew. THe process involves the preparaôn of a magical
phylateracy and a a poôn. Most candidates prepare the poôn rst and
arrange for an appren^ce or ally to raise them if ingesôn of the poôn
proves fatal. Preparaôn of the Phylateracy is so expensive that most
candidates do not wish to waste all of the eort of its preparaôn by

dying aver it is completed but before they are prepared for lichdom.

The nine ingredients are as follows:
Arsenic(2 drops of purest dis^llate)
Belladonna(1 drop of the purest dis^llate)
Blood(1 quart of blood from a dead virginal human infant killed by wyvern venom)
-a quart??? sheesh!
Blood(1 quart from a dead demihuman slain by a phase spider)
-thats two quarts!
Blood( 1 quart from from a vampire or being infected with vampirism)
Three Quarts! This is more than a poôn!
Heart(the intact Heart of a humanoid killed by poisoning; a mixture of
arsenic and bella donna must be used)
Reproduc^ve glands(from seven giant moths dead for less than 10 days,
ground together)
Venom(1 pint or more, drawn from a phase spider less than 30 days previous)
Venom( " " wyvern " " 60 days " )
(I thinks this is more than a gallon. Poôn! Hah! thats a good one)

The ingedients are mixed in the order given by the ligh of the full moon,
and must be drunk within seven days aver they combine into a bluish glowing
sparkling black liquid. All of the poôn must be drunk by the candidate,
and within 6 rounds will produce the eect as follows(roll percen^le):

Lichnee Poôn table
01-10 All body hair falls out, but the poôn is ineec^ve(the candidate
knows this) Another poôn must be prepared to try again.
11-40 Candidate falls into coma for 1d6 +1 days, is physically helpless and
immobile, mentally unreachable Poôn works, candidate knows this
41-70 Poôn works but candidate is feebleminded. Any failed akempt to
cure the state is 20% likely to slay the candidate
71-90 Poôn works, but candidate is paralyzed for 2d6 + 2 days(no saving
throw, including cura^ve magics. 30% chance of permanent loss of 1d6
Dexterity
91-96 Poôn works but candidate is permanently deaf(01-33), dumb(34-66) or
blind(67-00) The lost sense can only be regained by full or limited wish
97-00 Death. Poôn fails.

The successfully prepared candidate for lichdom can exist for an indenite
number of years before becoming a lich. He will not achieve lichdom upon
death unless preparaôn of his or her phylateracy is complete. A
successfully prepared candidate may appear somewhat paler of skin tha before
imbibing the poôn, but cannot magically or mentally be detected by others
as ready for lichdom. The candidate however, is always aware of its
readiness for lichdom, even if charmed or insanity or memory loss occurs.(A
charmed candidate can never be made to reveal where his phylateracy
is-although he could be compelled to iden^fy it, if shown it).

The phylateracy may take anyform- it may be a pendant, gauntlet,
scepterm, helm, crown, ring, or even a lump of stone. It must be of an

inorganic material, solid and of high quality workmanship if manmade, and
cannot be an item having other spells or magical properês on or in it. It
may be decorated or or carved in any way for dis^ncôn.

Enchant an item is cast upon the phylateracy, a process requiring
con^nual handling of th e phylateracy for a long period, see PH. The
phylateracy must successfully make its saving throw as noted in spell's
descripôn. It must be completely enchanted within nine days. Note that
the additonal spell ^mes are required.

When the phylateracy is thereby made ready for enchantment, the
candidate must cast Trp the Soul on it. Percen^le dice are rolled; the
spell has a 50% chaance of working, plus 6% per level of the candidate over
11th level(or caster, if another being). The phylateracy glows with a
ickering blue-green fearie re like radiance for one round if it is
successfully recep^ve for the candidates soul.

The candidate must then cast Nunthaloe's Ninemen on the Phylateracy,
and within one turn of doing so, casta a magic Jar on it and enter it with
his lifeforce. No vic^m is required for this use of the Magic Jar spell.

Upon entering the Phylateracy, the candidate immediately loses one
level of experience along with its commensurate spells and hit points. The
soul and lost hit point remain in the Phylateracy, which becomes AC ) and
has those HPs henceforth. The candidate is now a lichnee, and must return
to his own body to rest for 1d6 + 1 days. The ordeal of becoming a lichnee
is so trauma^c that that the candidate forgets any memorized spells of the
top three levels availibel to him, and cannot regain any spells of those
levels un^l the rest period is complete.

The next ^me the lichnee candidate dies, regardless of the manner
or planar locaôn of death, or barriers of any sort between the corpse and
the phylateracy, the candidates lifeforce will go into the phylateracy. For
it to emerge again, there must be a recently dead(less than 30 days) corpse
within 90 feet of the phylateracy. The corpse may be that of any creature,
and must fail a saving throw versus death to be possessed. If it makes the
save, it will never recieve the lich

If the creature had three hit dice or fewer in life it saves as a
zero level ghter. If it had 3 +1 or greater, it will save as if alive w/
the following alignment modiers: LG, NG, CG:+0 LN, CN, N:-3 LE:-4 NE:-5
CE:-6.

The candidates own corpse if within range, is at -10, and may have been dead
for any length of ^me. The lichnee may akempt to enter his own corpse
once per week un^l succeeding.(A phylateracy too well hidden might never
oer the lichnee a crpse to enter. May lichnee commit suicide to save
themselves such troubles.) When the lichnee enters it own corpse, it rises
in 1d4 turns as a full lich, with all memorized spells and undead abiliês
described.

If the lichnee enters another's corpse, he is limited to the
corpse's living strength

okay I'm cuing this corner.....

He turns into a wigh^sh thing and has to nd and eat his corpse, then he
metamorphoses into his old body over aver seven days.
-can cast spells up to fourth level, can't energy drain
-unlimited range detect object for body

Took them three paragraphs to say this

Okay, this has some really cool ideas, but conver^ng to Mythus will at
least modify it considerably, and my own ideas will modify it even further,
so that it is barely recognizable. I am working on adap^ng a formulae,
including the removal of Nunthaloe's Ninemen and incorporaôn of larvae,
but at this point who knows. Once its done, I will have to decide whether
to just keep it and talk about it to let you guys gure out what I did, or
actually describe the whole thing in detail, and allow EGS to dictate its
usage(yes I own the copyright, but I can't do anything T$R wont let me do
with it).

I hope you appreciate me typing it, because it was a pain.

Certainly requires some Heka forging for Phylateracy, as well as Necromancy
and Black Wizardry.

BTW I like Ed Greenwood, Doug Niles and Je Grubb's stu, but I recently
found out that none of them really work for EGS any more. No wondering
about that.

Later

Mike

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:59:46 -0700


>Only Dweomercraevers and Priests are allowed to roll for full prac^ce AND
>these vocaôns must be selected before the roll. Also, if you read the HP
>creaôn rules carefully you will note that it is possible to have a Failed
>Priest or Dweomercraever because of terrible rolls crea^ng low akribute
>scores that do not equal 101 or above. This is because a vocaôn must be
>chosen prior to any akribute rolls being made.(MYTHUS pg.59)

When rolling for priest/mage, the lowest of the two caps is used as
target number at Hard DR. I've been wondering, what if someone wanted to be
a FP priest mage, but only ended up FP in one and not the other. Why is
this not possible??

I am seriously thinking of requiring two seperate rolls, one for
each with the resule being a 1/25 chance of someone trying to become a FP
mage/priest succeeding. I can't decide if this is too harsh or not.

Whaddya think???

Mike

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 22:28:11 -0400

At 03:59 PM 7/16/96 -0700, you wrote:
>>Only Dweomercraevers and Priests are allowed to roll for full prac^ce AND
>>these vocaôns must be selected before the roll. Also, if you read the HP
>>creaôn rules carefully you will note that it is possible to have a Failed
>>Priest or Dweomercraever because of terrible rolls crea^ng low akribute
>>scores that do not equal 101 or above. This is because a vocaôn must be
>>chosen prior to any akribute rolls being made.(MYTHUS pg.59)
>
>
> When rolling for priest/mage, the lowest of the two caps is used as
>target number at Hard DR. I've been wondering, what if someone wanted to be
>a FP priest mage, but only ended up FP in one and not the other. Why is
>this not possible??

(MJW)
This is not possible because one roll for FP is provided just as one roll is
provided for someone choosing a Dweomercraever or Priest Vocaôn.
(see below)
>
> I am seriously thinking of requiring two seperate rolls, one for
>each with the resule being a 1/25 chance of someone trying to become a FP
>mage/priest succeeding. I can't decide if this is too harsh or not.

(MJW)
This is not harsh enough.
(see below)
>
>Whaddya think???

(MJW)
I believe that the MYTHUS book and rules are quite clear in expressing the
idea that Full Pracôneers should be quite rare and failed Mages and
Priests should be VERY common in the MYTHUS world. Mage/Priest and
Priest/Mage should be the rarest of ALL.

(MJW)
The lowest of the two caps is used at DR Hard to keep with the rarity concept.
If two rolls were allowed it would give the HP two chances at Full Prac^ce
rather than one. A HP could end up being a FP Dwemorecraever and PP
Priests. The lower of the two caps is used in order to prevent this. The
player chooses the vocaôn of Mage/Priest and he rolls for FP, either he
makes it or he doesn't. In the two rolls you are sugges^ng any/all
player(s) could simply choose to be Mage/Priest and then they would have 2
chances at FP rather than the one that they would have if they simply chose
to play a Dweomercraever or Priest. Thus, I think your idea is a terrible
one. (IMHO)

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:52:52 -0700
In-Reply-To: <199607170228.WAA17223@darius.cris.com> from "Michae J. Weaver"
at Jul 16, 96 10:28:11 pm

> >>Only Dweomercraevers and Priests are allowed to roll for full prac^ce AND
> >>these vocaôns must be selected before the roll. Also, if you read the HP
> >>creaôn rules carefully you will note that it is possible to have a Failed
> >>Priest or Dweomercraever because of terrible rolls crea^ng low akribute
> >>scores that do not equal 101 or above. This is because a vocaôn must be
> >>chosen prior to any akribute rolls being made.(MYTHUS pg.59)
[snip]
> >
> > I am seriously thinking of requiring two seperate rolls, one for
> >each with the resule being a 1/25 chance of someone trying to become a FP
> >mage/priest succeeding. I can't decide if this is too harsh or not.
>
> (MJW)
> This is not harsh enough.
> (see below)

Err, I might be misunderstanding the proposal, but I was under the
impression that Chris meant that the 2nd roll would only be akempted
if the rst one was made; i.e. a dweomercraever persona akemp^ng
to be a FP mage/priest would only get to check for FP priest ability if
the rst FP roll was made. In that case, it does go a long way toward
making dual FP personas much rarer.

Of course, I personally think the Hard DR roll vs Cap score makes a
Full Prac^ôners persona too easy to generate, but that's a dierent
subject en^rely.

Steven

(s^ll around for the summer, but busy...)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 22:31:45 -0600

Here's how I read it:

Mythus Magick (MM), p. 5, says that 1% of society can cast heka. .01% have
the potenâl to be full prac^ôners. .001% are full prac^ôners.
.0001% are full pracôners in 2 TRAITS. (And, it seems to imply, that
.00001% are FPs in 3 TRAITS.) Thus, priest-mages are literally 1 in a
million.

As far as HPs go, we know they are excepônal. According to MM, p.10, a
FP must be a dweomercraever or a priestcraever and have M or S TRAITS
over 100 (respec^vely, I assume). And then the FP must make the roll.

According to the Priestcraev K/S, (Mythus, p.195) a priestcraever can be
a FP in priestcraev (a Priest) if their S > 100, they make the roll, *and*
they make a Vow. It says they must roll below their SMCap. It goes on to
say that priescraevers may be priest-mages if their S > 100 and M >90 and
they make the roll against the lower of their SMCap or MMCap.

For dweomercraev (p.142), it is basically the same except reversed between
M and S scores and there is no Vow requirement.

In both cases, it is quite clear that failure on 'the roll' means that the
HP is a parâl prac^ôner. So, in crea^ng the HP, the player is faced
with the choice: do they risk the roll against the lower Akribute (to
become a Priest-Mage), or do they just go for FP in one TRAIT.

Let's take a sta^s^cally average HP dweomercraever. She has M=101,
P=78, S=91. It wouldn't take much imaginaôn to have her lower Cap score
be around 15 and her upper around a 20. If I were her, I'd be sorely
tempted to gamble for priest-mage. A 5% average dierence isn't much, so
I can see good reason for changing the requirement. I got the impression
that symbiote Mike's suggesôn was to require incremental K/S checks
against the MMCap and SMCap. This way, the HP in my example would have to
roll below a 20 *and then* roll below a 15 if they wanted to be a
mage-priest (3% chance). Now, if the HP just wanted to be a mage instead,
she could opt to just roll once below 20 and be done with it. She cannot
fail one roll and then say she wants to be just a mage.

I think this suggesôn has a lot of merit. It brings the sta^s^cal
chances much closer in line with the demographics outlined in my rst
paragraph. But it needs to be clear that upon creaôn that the HP selects
a vocaôn (dweomercraever or priestcraever are the only two relevant
choices here) and then, if elegible, may try to be either a priest or mage
or a priest-mage. They only get to try for one, once. If they fail to
achieve the one they want, they are a Parâl. I agree with Mr. Weaver
that, if two rolls were allowed and either one could result in an FP, then
it becomes too easy to be a FP (32% in my example).

Now, I'd hate to recommend a rules-modicaôn, but... I think it's
basically a maker of whether you want to require that extra roll or not,
which would priest-mages s^ll more rare. Or you can leave the rules as
is, and use campaign constraints to limit the number of priest-mages.
Either way, I agree that they should be rare and that the rules are fairly
clear in this regard.

-Doug

Bozeman, MT

(hard at work on Marvel/Mythus rules extensions.....)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 00:51:27 -0400

In-Reply-To: <199607170228.WAA17223@darius.cris.com>

> (MJW)
> The lowest of the two caps is used at DR Hard to keep with the rarity concept.
> If two rolls were allowed it would give the HP two chances at Full Prac^ce
> rather than one. A HP could end up being a FP Dwemorecraever and PP
> Priests. The lower of the two caps is used in order to prevent this. The

Michael, I know the rules say one thing, but why would you want to prevent
that? I thought FP meant FP (Priescrav) for Priests, and that's the only
K/S which gets the bonus. What if you choose a DW-crav Vocaôn, roll
the FP roll, get it, and then choose P-Crav as a pick up K/S? I think it
is perfectly reasonable. Of course, I've only ever had one anyway...most
people are too scared for some reason... :)

> player chooses the vocaôn of Mage/Priest and he rolls for FP, either he
> makes it or he doesn't. In the two rolls you are sugges^ng any/all
> player(s) could simply choose to be Mage/Priest and then they would have 2
> chances at FP rather than the one that they would have if they simply chose
> to play a Dweomercraever or Priest. Thus, I think your idea is a terrible
> one. (IMHO)

Okay, but like I said, what if you choose to be a wizard, roll
successfully, and then choose to take up some religous educaôn?

Jesse

-Angela = Love of my Life. Just a likle tribute.
Mythus: The Unmortal game that doesn't suck.
ARIA: The game that wouldn't suck if it ever got re-released.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 09:54:33 -0400
From: plnelsen <plnelsen@NANDO.NET>
In-Reply-To: <v0151010dae121d1b8f5d@[205.163.40.45]>

Given the "rarity" of persons on Aerth able to successfully weild Heka
that the two roll method would be much more in keeping with the rarity of FP
s in the world. It would also seem to be logical that one could be truly
called to Priestcraev and then also discover a talent for Dweomercrav.
Another benet of the "two roll" thing is that if a player manages to
have ludicrously high caps across the board, it reduces their chances of
becoming FP. and as FP can unbalance a game... (Esp where one HP is and
another is not...) having FP Priest-mages can be even more unsekling.

-Paul

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------Do not meddle in the aairs of wizards,
for they are subtle and quick to anger.
Do not meddle in the aairs of dragons,
for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:36:57 -0400
Subject: MYTHUS-L: Re: TSR ... Foo Fighters

>Sounds like somebody took Art from a TSR Product. I suspect it was either a
>Gamma World Release or a Buck Rogers one--and I suspect the laker.

Yes, it's actually a photo of the commemora^ve Buck Rogers
zappo-blappo-whatever-it's-called pistol. As Buck Rogers is
owned by the Dille Trust (of which the TSR prez is a part),
the Foo Fighters got permission from them to use the photo
on the cover.

>Hey--means that Alterna^ve Rock loves RPGs...

Yup, I think the Foo Fighters are gamers, I'm sure Weezer is,
and (thanks to me), the Barenaked Ladies are back in the habit
of gaming again.

If anything, I bet it makes those long bus rides go more quickly.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:29:51 -0400
Comments: RFC822 error: <W> Incorrect or incomplete address eld found and
ignored.
From: Daniel Martz <dmart248@STUDENT2.UWSP.EDU>
In-Reply-To: your message of Tue Jul 16 15:59:46 -0700 1996

I'm not the most experienced Mythus player, but my understanding of full
prac^ôner vs. parâl prac^ôner in a Dweomercraver's case is that you
can either channel Magick fully or you can't, and for a Priestcraver, you can
either channel spiritual energy fully or you can't. Using that as a
premise...

If you can channel magick fully, you can channel magick fully, regardless of
whether or not you can channel spiritual energy fully. This would mean that
you are a full prac^ôner as a Mage, but not as a MAGE/PRIEST. This would
give you a special bonus in dweomercrav but not in priestcrav.

There is s^ll only a 1 in 25 chance to get both, using the method described
below, and that is only if you qualify for both with your akribute scores,
reducing the chances further. I think that both Mental and Spiritual traits
should have to be more than 100, also(yet further reducing the chances) That
means that the player's top 12 akribute rolls have to average out to 16+2/3.
What is it about trying to be a dual prac^ôner that makes one of the traits
suddenly less important? IMHO, nothing.

I also don't see any reason that you couldn't decide to be a Dweomercraver as
your vocaôn and pick up the K/S areas to become a Priestcraver. IMHO, I
don't see why you would even have to have the Dweomercraving/Priestcraving
K/S area to be able to fully channel the energies. So what if you never
studied Dweomercrav, it doesn't mean that you couldn't have been totally
awesome at it. That is, of course, all IMHO.

Dan Martz(dmart248@uwsp.edu)

> When rolling for priest/mage, the lowest of the two caps is used as
>target number at Hard DR. I've been wondering, what if someone wanted to be
>a FP priest mage, but only ended up FP in one and not the other. Why is
>this not possible??

> I am seriously thinking of requiring two seperate rolls, one for
>each with the resule being a 1/25 chance of someone trying to become a FP
>mage/priest succeeding. I can't decide if this is too harsh or not.

>Whaddya think???

>Mike

>Chris Calvert

>calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:09:25 -0500
Subject: Dave's Besâry & Dangerous Ideas

I have converted Dave's (incomplete) Besâry to a database format.
I am currently wri^ng programs to spill it out to HTML pages and
allow addiôns/updates/etc via HTML forms. These programs are
compiled for an Intel plaorm, so if desired, it can be put
up on the "ocial" Dangerous Journeys site, otherwise, I am

just going to put them up on my web site.

Look for this project to be completed before my character
generator is completed. (Yes, I am s^ll working on it).

Also, is there any chance of DI star^ng up again, Jesse? I would
love to see it get going again and would be willing to send
material to you on say, a monthly basis. If you could get a few
others to agree to do that I think you could have something good
on your hands.

Later,
krk.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:54:54 -0400

At 12:51 AM 7/17/96 -0400, you wrote:
>> (MJW)
>> The lowest of the two caps is used at DR Hard to keep with the rarity
concept.
>> If two rolls were allowed it would give the HP two chances at Full Prac^ce
>> rather than one. A HP could end up being a FP Dwemorecraever and PP
>> Priests. The lower of the two caps is used in order to prevent this. The
>
>Michael, I know the rules say one thing, but why would you want to prevent
>that?

(MJW)
Well, because all games have to have rules in order to play them and I play
MYTHUS. Also as I explained FP's are supposed to be rare and allowing two
chances at FP is viola^ng this basic game concept.

I thought FP meant FP (Priescrav) for Priests, and that's the only
>K/S which gets the bonus.

(MJW)
Incorrect. FP Dweomercraevers also gets a bonus(MYTHUS pg.276 on the chart
note 3)of ^mes 10 for Heka generaôn.

What if you choose a DW-crav Vocaôn, roll
>the FP roll, get it, and then choose P-Crav as a pick up K/S?

(MJW)
Then you would have an HP who was a FP Dweomercraever(the Voacôn the
player chose) who happens to have the Priestcraev K/S area. This would
limit him/her to parâl prac^ce in Priestcraev.

The rules are very clear here the only way to have the possibility of being
able to fully channel Heka both of Mental and Spiritual sort(A VERY RARE
thing) is to select the Vocaôn of Mage/Priest or Priest/Mage and roll
against the lower akribute. If you pick up Priestcraev of Dweomercraev
later in the game or upon creaôn as a Bonus K/S you do NOT get to roll for
FP. This is agian staying with the BASIC game concept that people able to
fully channel either kind of Heka(much less both) are rare. So there is one
roll to nd out if the HP fully channels Heka.

I think it
>is perfectly reasonable. Of course, I've only ever had one anyway...most
>people are too scared for some reason... :)

> (MJW)
>> player chooses the vocaôn of Mage/Priest and he rolls for FP, either he
>> makes it or he doesn't. In the two rolls you are sugges^ng any/all
>> player(s) could simply choose to be Mage/Priest and then they would have 2
>> chances at FP rather than the one that they would have if they simply chose
>> to play a Dweomercraever or Priest. Thus, I think your idea is a terrible
>> one. (IMHO)
>
>Okay, but like I said, what if you choose to be a wizard, roll
>successfully, and then choose to take up some religous educaôn?
>
(MJW)
Then you would be a FP Dweomercraever(called Mages) with some religious
educaôn.
The issue here is not educaôn. The HP is free(by the rules) to choose the
Religion and Priestcraev K/S areas. These areas will even generate Heka for
them in the same manner as it does for all HPs. The issue is the HP's
ability to fully channel Heka in either Mental or Spiritual areas or in the
case of Mage/Priest-Priest/Mage both areas. This is decided at the creaôn
of the HP by the rules of the game.

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver

>Jesse
>
>->Angela = Love of my Life. Just a likle tribute.
>Mythus: The Unmortal game that doesn't suck.
>ARIA: The game that wouldn't suck if it ever got re-released.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 11:38:41 -0700

Subject: 2 quesôns/Aria-arggghh/stu

This thing started me thinking when one of my players chose to play a druid.
From the way he made the character, he clearly considered the druid's prime
focus Dweomercraev. Now maybe he was just misinformed, but in the back of
Mythus, a druid is a priest of the Cel^c Pantheon. I can see why one would
consider each of the point of views to be correct, so I decided that Druids
would be an ancient/powerful/mysterious order, and would consist of
Priest-Mages(Mage-Priests, whatever)==>individuals trained in the Druidic
faith and schooled in the uses of Dweomercraevers. However, I am preky
much happy with the group's present "Druid"==>FP Green School Mage, and I
think having a full prac^ce mage-priest would be too much, yet I feel it is
appropriate for his order. I started thinking that it should be possible to
be a FP Mage and PP Priest of, say, Brigit(Moonlight....uhhh, lemme think
about that), and thus qualify for Druidic vocaôn(no I'm not pos^ng it,
but I will e-mail it to anyone who wants it).
I am planning to make the qualicaôn, FP in one of the two areas, with PP
in one of the two areas permissible, but the highest of the order must be FP
Mage/Priests.

Anyway this guy is already FP Mage, and I don't need a FP Mage priest, yet I
owe him the chance. Plus I think that it should be possible to be FP in one
and PP in the other, thus, my proposal.
It was made with the usumpôn that the persona was already FP in one of the
areas already.
I think the second roll is logical because one declares a vocaôn, then
trys for the second FP later using addiônal K/S areas later, and thus
merits a later and seperate roll.

==>I dont have a problem with min/maxing, because everyone is far more
focused on the character's concept, which truly pleases me

Aria-arrrgghh!

I love it, thats the problem. I am s^ll building the campaign seing and
don't need this much more work

PS-What would you guys think of a magic item that allowed a PP to become a
full prac^ôner permanently?? Or some ritual or something.

In Necropolis, prac^cally everyone had a quirk conferring FP on PP, rather
eec^ve S trait of 101 for Purposes of FP Priestcraev, and all were
automa^cally FP(at least everyone with the quirk was). Hmmmmm......

PS-I am conver^ng Temple of Elemental Evil to Mythus. OOOhhhhhh<shivers>,
this is gonna be fun!!!!

>> (MJW)
>> The lowest of the two caps is used at DR Hard to keep with the rarity
concept.
>> If two rolls were allowed it would give the HP two chances at Full Prac^ce
>> rather than one. A HP could end up being a FP Dwemorecraever and PP
>> Priests. The lower of the two caps is used in order to prevent this. The
>
>Michael, I know the rules say one thing, but why would you want to prevent
>that?

Ehhh, huh? No, my poin^s the present rules only allow a doubly FP
Mage-Priest or a double PP failed Mage-Priest. I don't see why success in
one translates to success in the other, and failure in one translates to
failure in the other.

Look, yes two seperate independent FP rolls would increase chance of FP to
somewhere around 33% but it would decrease chances of dual FP to
approxiamtely 4% rather than the 15% to 20% it is presently.

This makes it easier(emphasis on the -ER) to become a druid, yet Dual FP
mage priests do not become a problem. I haven't decided which way to go in
the future, but for now the player is a FP mage already so it doesn't really
maker.

I'll decide later(gee, later sounds suspiciously like never)-although I am
leaning towards making the second opportunity at FP dependent on the rst
succeeding.

In the two rolls you are sugges^ng any/all
>> player(s) could simply choose to be Mage/Priest and then they would have 2
>> chances at FP rather than the one that they would have if they simply chose
>> to play a Dweomercraever or Priest.

Thats a rather disgus^ng twis^ng of the intent, but I'm sure there are
players who would want to. Good Point.

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:33:32 -0400
Subject: Re: 2 quesôns/Aria-arggghh/stu
In-Reply-To: <199607171838.LAA21728@rho.ben2.ucla.edu>

For the druid... as ac^ve as the druids were in "green" magic... i would
say that green dweomercrav would be primary... here's why. While the
druidic religeons did have some gods... the true "power" came from nature
(Green Dweomercrav)... so I would think that the priestcraev should be
secondary...

>
>
> PS-What would you guys think of a magic item that allowed a PP to become a
> full prac^ôner permanently?? Or some ritual or something.

Eh.. the ritual maybe... the item no. A ritual could "open" the channels
of heka ow, but just an item would make it too easy. Also...
priestcraev has something similar... called a Vow...allowing PP's to
take lesser vows and "work up" (it is in the rules) to I believe 7X... is
close enuf to full prac^ce... for me. But Dweomercravers should have
the opôn of "approaching" it as well... never actually gaining "full"
benet.

> I'll decide later(gee, later sounds suspiciously like never)-although I am
> leaning towards making the second opportunity at FP dependent on the rst
> succeeding.

it's worked well for me in the past... I would highly reccommend it.

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:55:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Full Prac^ôners.
In-Reply-To: <199607171854.OAA13602@darius.cris.com> from "Michae J. Weaver"
at Jul 17, 96 02:54:54 pm

> The rules are very clear here the only way to have the possibility of being
> able to fully channel Heka both of Mental and Spiritual sort(A VERY RARE
> thing) is to select the Vocaôn of Mage/Priest or Priest/Mage and roll
> against the lower akribute.

This may be but as far as I can tell there is no Mage/Priest or Priest/Mage
vocaôn included with Mythus. If your version of Mythus has this
vocaôn I would appreciate seeing it, if not your statement is ... less
than completely true. That would make FP Mage/Priests so rare as to not
exist anywhere.

Also does a Mage/Priest have to be able to get Heka from both the
Mental as well as Spiritual Trait? You know 9 in 10 to get 1 Trait
of Heka, then 1 in 10 to get 2 Traits of Heka and 1 in 10 again to
get 3 Traits Heka, each con^ngent on the previous roll succeeding.

I don't use Full Prac^ôners in my game at all. I felt they
were very unbalancing. If only one character is a FP, the others
were not nearly as good spell casters and if the OP was an FP,
the HP's could be easily outclassed. I just decided to drop the
concept.

Dan W.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 20:46:19 -0500

>> The rules are very clear here the only way to have the possibility of being
>> able to fully channel Heka both of Mental and Spiritual sort(A VERY RARE
>> thing) is to select the Vocaôn of Mage/Priest or Priest/Mage and roll
>> against the lower akribute.
>
>This may be but as far as I can tell there is no Mage/Priest or Priest/Mage
>vocaôn included with Mythus. If your version of Mythus has this
>vocaôn I would appreciate seeing it, if not your statement is ... less
>than completely true. That would make FP Mage/Priests so rare as to not
>exist anywhere.

I believe this may be reering using the bonus K/S by choosing the other
Heka-cas^ng areas. Thus the Primary areas would be Dweom/Preist/ and I
believe Spellsongs. It may also be desirable (for the player) to choose
these heka areas to increase aperature. So this could happen quite
frequently. (and I believe does)

>Also does a Mage/Priest have to be able to get Heka from both the
>Mental as well as Spiritual Trait? You know 9 in 10 to get 1 Trait
>of Heka, then 1 in 10 to get 2 Traits of Heka and 1 in 10 again to

>get 3 Traits Heka, each con^ngent on the previous roll succeeding.

Good Quesôn, but not as it is stated in the rules. HERE may be your
second roll in order to be a FP! Not a bad place either.

>I don't use Full Prac^ôners in my game at all. I felt they
>were very unbalancing. If only one character is a FP, the others
>were not nearly as good spell casters and if the OP was an FP,
>the HP's could be easily outclassed. I just decided to drop the
>concept.

I quite agree. It is hard for a group to have one star where the other
players are just support. Although some groups can work this way and have
a blast, many players may be too compe^^ve (esp. inexperienced players.)
Also I nd it easier to remember one set of rules for PP. KISS. :) So I
don't allow a roll.

Good Gaming (etc.... <= for you Micheal)

AJ=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 20:54:00 -0500
Subject: Languages

Fellow gamers...

This is to alert you to a reference secôn on Languages that I am going to
post by Friday. It is a bit lenthy and is a claricaôn and expanôn of
language ruling we use as a reference. It was designed to promote
consistancy in promo^ng the use of foreign language, na^ve tongue, trade
languages, etc.. for the Dangerous Journeys gamers in our area.

..thought you all might want a peek, if not just disreguard and toss..

I also release this document to all web sites (and DI) for public domain in
the hopes of promo^ng Mythus and th DJ system.

Comments, suggesôn, addiôn are encouraged. Remember: these are only
our personal interpretaôns, nothing ocal.

Thank you

AJ
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 21:35:40 -0500

Subject: Armor

Although it might be completely obvious to the rest of the mythus world, its
is not obvious to me.

My quesôn is:

How can we be exactly sure what body parts the armors listed actually cover.
I understand how to
gure out what areas they protect(UVSN)...but I mean the actual body
locaôns. Such as the 12 dierent
locaôns armor can be...ie head, hand, thigh...etc. The descripôns are
unclear as to exactly what parts
the armor covers. It is stated that armor can't overlap other armor in the
book...a person would have
to be an armor historian to know what all the dierent armor pieces
cover... Can any help me out here?

Thanks, and I hope you understand what I'm asking...
JEB
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 00:31:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Dave's Besâry & Dangerous Ideas
In-Reply-To: <B0000021584@health1.uwsp.edu>

Ken's:
> I have converted Dave's (incomplete) Besâry to a database format.
> I am currently wri^ng programs to spill it out to HTML pages and
> allow addiôns/updates/etc via HTML forms. These programs are
> compiled for an Intel plaorm, so if desired, it can be put
> up on the "ocial" Dangerous Journeys site, otherwise, I am
> just going to put them up on my web site.

Ken, what kind of dbf? Me want... :) Of course, your ambiôus idea is
really cool as well, and would work great as long as you restrict the
"addiôn/change" forms to a single site (mirrors can have the nished).
Otherwise who knows what might happen...

> Also, is there any chance of DI star^ng up again, Jesse? I would
> love to see it get going again and would be willing to send
> material to you on say, a monthly basis. If you could get a few
> others to agree to do that I think you could have something good
> on your hands.

Well, let's see. Let me think about it for a few days, and see what ^me
is lev for me to do something liek that again. I loved it, and would
love to keep doing it, but I'm always doing something *else* (like
responding to email). :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 23:52:03 -0700
Subject: Re: Armor

At 09:35 PM 7/17/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Although it might be completely obvious to the rest of the mythus world, its
>is not obvious to me.
>
>My quesôn is:
>
>How can we be exactly sure what body parts the armors listed actually cover.
>I understand how to
>gure out what areas they protect(UVSN)...but I mean the actual body
>locaôns.

Heh, thats why I don't use the Mythus system, I use a combat system that
took me a year and a half to write.

Good Luck.

Mike

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 05:11:55 -0400

At 03:55 PM 7/17/96 -0500, you wrote:
>> The rules are very clear here the only way to have the possibility of being
>> able to fully channel Heka both of Mental and Spiritual sort(A VERY RARE
>> thing) is to select the Vocaôn of Mage/Priest or Priest/Mage and roll
>> against the lower akribute.
>
>This may be but as far as I can tell there is no Mage/Priest or Priest/Mage
>vocaôn included with Mythus.

(MJW)
MYTHUS pg.70 "...This is par^culary important when it comes to the
Dweomercraev or Priestcraev Vocaôns if a player expects a Heroic Persona
to be a full pracôneer,i.e. a mage or a priest(or both). " Also, JOURNEYS
magazine #6 pg.5 in an ar^cle called INPUT OUTPUT by Alan Kellog
establishes the procedure for determining FP for a Priest/Mage or Mage/Priest.

If your version of Mythus has this
>vocaôn I would appreciate seeing it,

(MJW)
see above

if not your statement is ... less
>than completely true. That would make FP Mage/Priests so rare as to not
>exist anywhere.

(MJW)
They are VERY rare,which is why the rules are harsh on this point, but they
do exist even though the odds are against it.
>
>Also does a Mage/Priest have to be able to get Heka from both the
>Mental as well as Spiritual Trait? You know 9 in 10 to get 1 Trait
>of Heka, then 1 in 10 to get 2 Traits of Heka and 1 in 10 again to
>get 3 Traits Heka, each con^ngent on the previous roll succeeding.

(MJW)
The rules you quote above are for PP. "A mage-priest(or priest-mage) gets
both Mental and Spiritual TRAIT in Heka automa^cally." (JOURNEYS magazine
#6 pg.5)
>
>concept.

(MJW)
ok
>
>Dan W.
>
>Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 05:56:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Armor

At 09:35 PM 7/17/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Although it might be completely obvious to the rest of the mythus world, its
>is not obvious to me.
>
>My quesôn is:

>How can we be exactly sure what body parts the armors listed actually cover.

(MJW)
This is some^mes given in the descripôns i.e. MYTHUS pg.251 Hoguine: A
curving plate of metal axed to the back plate to aord protecôn to the
bukocks." This seems preky clear to me. Granted they are not all this clear.

>I understand how to
>gure out what areas they protect(UVSN)...but I mean the actual body
>locaôns. Such as the 12 dierent
>locaôns armor can be...ie head, hand, thigh...etc. The descripôns are
>unclear as to exactly what parts
>the armor covers.

(MJW)
Why would you want(need) to know this since the combat system is not set up
with this specic of locaôns?

It is stated that armor can't overlap other armor in the
>book...

(MJW)
Where does it say this? On page 247 it does state that "Only one item in
each category can be worn at once. You can't wearing two helmets at the same
^me,for example-at least with the sort of armor considered here." but
directly following this sentence it reads "(In those cases where two items
in a category were used historically,GMs can make allowances as they deem
appropriate.)" There is also refernce in the armor descripôns as to
whether or not a piece can overlap another i.e. pg.251 "Epaulieres:These are
laminated plates that are added over other aromor to protect the shoulders."

a person would have
>to be an armor historian to know what all the dierent armor pieces
>cover... Can any help me out here?

(MJW)
I use the averaged armor because of this diculty. I use the chart on
pg.256(the one above) using only full values(in my games you can aord
armor or you can't). I then use the averaged values given and put those in
non-vital. I then proceed to add 2 points and place those in Vital, add one
to this and place that in Super-Vital, again add one to this and place those
in Ultra-Vital.

Of course you could always buy yourself a good book on the history of armor.
This level of detail(all body locaôns) seems unnecessary to me in light of
the fact that the combat system is generalized into just 4 areas.

>Thanks, and I hope you understand what I'm asking...

(MJW)
I hope I understood this(if not let me know) and hope my answers helped.

>JEB

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver

>---------------------------------------------------------------->Jason Edward Bilbrey
>jbilbrey@health1.uwsp.edu
>hkp://wellness.uwsp.edu/authors/jbilbrey/
>---------------------------------------------------------------->"Failure is not in falling, but in refusing to get up..."
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 14:09:40 -0400

>concept.
>
>Dan W.

I agree, that's why I've changed Full Prac^ce in my campaign. The

changes I've made make it impossible to gain a mul^plier to Heka unless one
has made some sort of pact/vow/agreement with a higher power. However,
these agreements work exactly like a Vow of Service (MM). The maximum
mul^plier is determined by the power of the specic deity in quesôn (and
not the method of contact such as Priestcrav, Sorcery, Mediumship ect.).
These mul^pliers change dependant on the personas acôns as judged by that
being and the terms of the pact/vow.

I do allow a roll for what I call Advanced Standing upon creaôn of
the persona. This is the same as a roll for full prac^ce. If this roll
suceeds, the persona starts with a mul^plier between 2 and 5 and this can
be raised or lowered in the same manner as above. All cas^ngs act as if
EVERYone is a PP.

I prefer this method becasue it allows a more gradual increase in
power and allows anyone to reach great power (through great devoôn).
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 15:12:32 -0400

Just to add a likle fuel to the re, or (insert list of cliches here).

The Mythus Handbook does indeed say that only DCraever and/or PCraevers may
akempt an FP roll. However, EGG printed one or more personas in MMM that
were non-D/PCraevers and had FP ability. One was an
"Alchemist/Philosopher".

I have no real problem with full prac^ôners in games. While rare, I don't
think they overbalance much of anything. To each his/her own I guess. I am
in the process of star^ng a new campaign which includes an FP Priest, PP
DCraever, and an assortment of more limited "Hekable" Figh^ng troops.

For the most part, I see high STEEP warrior types as crea^ng more problems
to balance than their FP counterparts. But even this is not a big issue.

If a persona took either PCraev or DCraev at the start, but not both, I'd
probably allow them to pick up the other K/S during play as a PP. However,
given the -3 DR hit to an opposiôn school it isn't a very akrac^ve
opôn. If a persona is not specically trained to handle both types of
Magick during there iniâl or formal schooling, the are not likely to master
the connecôns while running around the countryside adventuring. OTOH, if
said persona wished to re^re from adventuring for a couple of years I might
allow "full", full prac^ce.

Later
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 10:34:33 -0500

Subject: REFR:languages

Why Won't My Players Train in Foreign Languages?

Interes^ng role-playing situaôns can occur when traveling in
foreign lands or mee^ng foreign people. One common problem to overcome is
communicaôn. Many cas^ngs are dedicated to solving this problem,
however, the most direct way of communica^ng is by speaking the same
language. This ar^cle is designed to s^mulate some rules governing the
use and advancement of language knowledge/ skill areas. First o we must
discuss when it is appropriate to use a Foreign Language and what
diculty ra^ng should be determined. Later secôns will explain
methods of advancement and other special cases which might come in to use
on occasion.

I. Understanding Languages within the Mythus System.

Before delving into other languages, it should be noted that Na^ve
Tongue is the language of the en^ês home land or where they grew up.
Now keep in mind that a person may live in the US, but not understand all
the sub^lês of the language. The dierences in any language will be
handled by dialects and complexity.
In general, there are two aspects of language to keep in mind,
dialect and complexity. Dialect is a dierent pronunciaôn of syllable
and possibly some other deviaôn from the core language. Complexity is
the ability to understand dicult words, intertwined sentence structure,
and subtleês of the language. For game purposes, dialects will be
considered to be dierent foreign languages and complexity within the
language will be viewed as the K/S steep score in that par^cular language.
Dialects and related languages funcôn in a similar manner.
Dialects should be considered dierent languages from the core language,
but not too much to be considered a totally dierent language, thus called
a dialect of the core language. American English could be viewed as
having at least two dialects (and many others). As an example, consider
Bri^sh-English and Australian-English, whereas the later two could have a
75% relaônship to American English. (My apologies to my biased views to
those players over seas.) In Mythus, all three are considered separate
languages, thus a persona with Bri^sh-English would have 75% relaônship
to the other two similarly. An HP with any one of the three languages
could use the other two at a 75% steep. If the player has both, simply use
which is highest, the primary language in quesôn in comparison to the
percent relaônship of the cross-over. Referring to the chart on DJ1
(p146-147), one can see how other languages are used in this manner. In a
sense, the HP has those dialects as addiônal K/S areas, just at lower
steeps. Note that this relaônship only applies during play and does not
cross-feed into another K/S foreign language during HP generaôn. If a HP
has both the core language and a dialect, treat them separately.
High steep in a language will enable a persona to understand the
subtleês and diculês of a language more clearly. Those personas
with higher social class, verbal training, and/or formal educaôn will
have language skills beyond the normal reected in higher steeps. Such
dierences could include technical words, buzz words, words with mul^ple
deniôns, complex sentence structure, subtle meanings, etc... Remember,
most people in the typical Mythus genre have had likle or no schooling,
thus their grammar and word recogniôn will be low. In contrast, a person
of High society is expected to keep up with all the local news and
prin^ngs, where many language use changes occur and will tend to have a
higher steep. The following is a table for which to base steep vs.
uency:

STEEP Fluency Level
00-10 Knows only the essenâl words, not eec^ve communicaôn.
11-20 Simple vocabulary with sentence fragments, cannot follow
conversaôns or read wriken works beyond children's books.
21-30 Basic conversaôn level; can read simple books without aid.
31-40 Competent conversaôn and reading level; non-na^ve speaker=
s
will not have the proper accent.
41-50 Advanced conversaônal and reading level; non-na^ve speake=
rs
will have parâl accent if listened for.
51+ fully uent and literate with sophis^cated vocabulary;
non-na^ve speakers possess proper accent.

II. Establishing communicaôn.

The purpose of language is to communicate ideas. This par^cular
perspec^ve of communicaôn will be neglec^ng the non-verbal gestures
that accompany our every conversaôn. Since dierent cultures have
dierent or even some similar non-verbal communicaôn, it is assumed to
be part of the foreign language. For a more details on non-verbal
communicaôn see the secôn on Lip reading and Sign Languages.
To establish communicaôn it must be determined how dicult the
subject maker is to convey. The following is a suggested chart using the
=46L steep.

DR Subject Maker
easy* base communicaôn, choppy and slow at ^mes but understood
moderate* uid communicaôn without gaps or pauses
hard(*) detailed exchanges of an informa^ve nature such as technical dat=
a,
plans of a complex nature, scien^c explanaôns, aristocra^c
jargon, or poli^cal plaorm speech.
dicult no^cing or conveying a pakern of speech that has an encoded
message
within the syllables, rst lekers, double meanings, etc.

*A persona need not roll when using na^ve tongue for these, and in most
cases not for the hard DR unless the material is clearly over the
comprehension of the persona. In addiôn, any foreign language steep
above 50 can be considered procient enough not to have to roll these
checks (at JM's discreôn.)

Normally the opportunity for such a roll occurs when traveling in a
land or district where a foreign tongue is used or when rst mee^ng an
en^ty speaking a foreign tongue.
When using foreign languages for short stays in an area, HPs are
allowed a ^me frame roll once per day at their desired DR of
communicaôn. This reects the amount of consideraôn and concentraôn
they wish to expend before venturing forward. If the HP wishes to upgrade
the form of communicaôn, it may be done by an addiônal checks for each
encounter throughout that day. If the iniâl roll is failed,
communicaôn is considered to be garbled and not produc^ve. Any
individual checks done that day are one DR harder for the duraôn of that
day. For longer stays, checks can occur on a weekly or monthly basis.
At any ^me when HPs are interested in overhearing or speaking to
individuals in a foreign tongue use the above chart (remembering the DR
modier if they missed the iniâl ^me frame roll.)

III. Reading, Wri^ng, and Transla^ng.

Reading and Wri^ng a foreign language is more dicult than
speaking it, but if allowed the ^me and resources to do so it can be done
easily. If someone spends enough ^me with reference materials such as
dicônaries, translators and the like, the job will only be as dicult
as the material itself. The problem of transla^ng develops when the HPs
need the informaôn immediately or if they are willing to spend some ^me
interpre^ng it. Use the following table if the script is viewed only once
and read in a normal reading pace where the object is to get a paraphrased
summary:

DR Subject Maker
hard notes, lekers, lists of mundane names of items or people
dicult Books, excerpts of tablets, instrucôns, part lists
very dicult police reports, technical readouts, spell research
extreme spell books#

Modiers:
gain a very general overview - 1 dr easier
take ^me to mull over and reread- 1 dr easier ( if days are spent up to 2 d=
rs.)
have references available and ^me - 1 dr easier (up to 2 drs. if cross
referenced)
successful Drawing at dr hard - 1 dr easier (this may not always apply)
brief look or rushed - 1 dr harder
transla^ng ver ba^m - 1 dr harder
transla^ng Magick research (including spells#) - 1 dr harder

using Linguis^cs instead of FL - 1 dr harder

#Spellbooks in this par^cular system can involve as much as two language
checks depending on what you prefer. These systems will be explained later
in the Arcane Magickal secôn or in the Appendices.
Unlike conversaônal language, wriken language can be akempted
many ^mes. Keep in consideraôn the length of the message. A short
message reread in a ve minute period should be 2 DRs easier, however, a
ve hundred page excerpt on the use of F=E6ry metals in Heka forging may
take weeks, months, or more and require mul^ple rolls (perhaps one per
50-100 pages.)
A failure would mean the translaôn does not make sense. However,
a special failure would mean the work has been mistranslated and the HP may
have no way of knowing it. For this reason the JM may wish to determine
this roll if players are not willing to roll play out the part.

IV. Spoken Only or Wriken Only Applicaôns.

As an opôn, a persona may desire to have the ability to
communicate in either verbal or wriken form only. In this case, the
persona forgoes any possibility of performing the language in the undesired
form. He or she was simply not trained in it. In response to the personas
specializaôn in their chosen form, he or she is rewarded by a 1.5
mul^plier on the FL steep. This would be expressed in the form: Foreign
Language - Atlantlin spoken (40), where the applied steep would be at 60.
If at a later ^me the HP is interested in gaining the other form, he or
she would have to train in that area. Thus in the above example, gain
=46oreign Language - Atlantlin wriken. When the two steeps match, then the
HP would have the complete language: Foreign Language - Atlantlin (40). As
an incen^ve, some JMs may wish to give the higher steep of 60 aver both
have been obtained at forty.

V. Impressing other Persona and Verbal Combat.

Some HP may be challenged to a 'dual of words' from ^me to ^me.
This is an excellent opportunity to use na^ve tongues in the ability to
out-compliment or over-insult a person. Such repartee' was common during
bakles of sword and foil. Although most JMs prefer to hear the real role
playing comments, if an HP wanted to impress a young lass or defend the
virtues of another through verbal combat, here is an opôn and
opportunity. Handle by a K/S vs. K/S contest with the two individuals (as
per page 127) using the language steep they are conversing in.
Trying to impress another persona by using large words and complex
structures of the language could also be done using the same method,
however the object may not be necessarily to win. Stalemates might be
considered a success. Allow the HP to go for this goal if chosen by making
a success or a special success to be whatever is desired. In this manner,
a metal based character can iniâte some impression in higher social
circles without charisma^cism. This may iniâte some fun when using K/S
areas seldom brought forth in play.

VI. Impersonaôn of persona outside your SEC.

The best way to impersonate is to have the impersonaôn K/S area,
but to impersonate outside you SEC class the persona must also have a
Na^ve Tongue of at least 41 (as per page 155.) Also, allow impersona^ng
a dierent SEC class using another language, if appropriate, if the FL
steep is at least 51. This of course must be appropriate for the person or
class of person being impersonated or else all is for naught. If
impersona^ng in the incorrect SEC (low, middle, or high) assign a 2 DR
penalty.
It is also possible to mimic a person by using a dialect you have a
cross over with using the chart on pages 146-147. This mimicry is as
eec^ve as if you had that language at the par^cular percentage of the
cross over and are imita^ng within the HP's SEC. It does not allow a
persona to correctly mimic an SEC outside there own unless the cross over
steep is at least 51. ( Note that with certain addiônal cas^ngs it could
be: Mah Chi as an example )

VII. Lip Reading and Sign Language

For lip reading one must consider that the HP must know the
language spoken. In addiôn, range is also a modier in that ability.
Start with a moderate score, and for every twenty feet removed from the
person reduce it one DR. Also consider these modiers:

Special Circumstance DR modier
a direct view of two people conversing 1 dr easier
use of spell to increase sight range 1 dr easier
use of op^cal device to assist 1 dr easier
person is very well lighted or stands out 1 dr easier
acquainted with observed person 1 dr easier
looking at the persons prole 1 dr harder
observed person is ea^ng or drinking 1 dr harder
in a trac area 1 dr harder ( at=
least )
bushes or other cover in between 1 dr harder
dim ligh^ng or in shadows 1 dr harder

Sign language is the ability to communicate with gestures, most
commonly hands. Many uses include talking to the mutes to opera^ng
covertly and silently. When created, the HP should have choose sub-areas
from the list on page 154. Most of these languages are not designed to
explain detailed informaôn, but to eciently provide instrucôns or
communicaôn. Material of a detailed nature is best wriken out unless
there is long ^me to sign it out.
DR modiers will vary depending on each circumstance. Range of
sign language depends on the material or message sent. One signaling
danger or akack in a soldier language could be many rods apart whereas
someone having a conversaôn with a mute should be rela^vely close. The

above modiers may be useful in assigning DR, but be open minded and
liberal when possible. Usually start with DR easy and work from there.
The sign languages are usually more streamlined and ecient in order to
communicate using hands and gestures.

VIII. Reading Gestures Without Knowing the Language.

Second guessing another persona's intent by reading gestures is a
psychology K/S area. Un^l that ^me when it is used in this system, or
the HP changes genres, discourage players from this abuse. If they are
trying to read lips, use the appropriate K/S area. If they don't know the
language or do not possess the K/S area, possibly allow a Mental Percepôn
roll at Extreme or Very dicult. Only if the HP has collected previous
informaôn should the JM allow easier DRs as the situaôn demands.

IX. Linguis^cs.

Linguis^cs is a global language K/S area meant to establish base
communicaôn with anyone. This K/S is not meant to replace all the
individual FLs, but is to be used un^l a beker form of communicaôn is
u^lized. Aver all, an HP can't have every FL. Linguis^cs is extremely
useful for the well traveled, but for uent communicaôn, linguis^cs is
much harder than FL. Using linguis^cs, it is also much more dicult to
establish detailed plans or transfer scien^c/magical research without a
very high steep. In all other aspects, treat it as though it were a FL.
Here are some base modiers.

DR Subject Maker
easy Ability to determine overall intenôns, very incomplete,
no
details
moderate base communicaôn, choppy and slow at ^mes but understood
hard uid communicaôn without gaps or pauses
dicult detailed exchanges of an informa^ve nature such as technica=
l
data, plans of a complex nature, scien^c explanaôns,
aristocra^c jargon, or poli^cal plaorm speech.
very dicult no^cing or conveying a pakern of speech that has an encode=
d
message within the syllables, rst lekers, double meanings=
,
etc.

As with foreign languages, allow one roll per ^me period
(typically one day unless using over a prolonged period) at their desired
DR of communicaôn. This reects the amount of consideraôn and
concentraôn they wish to expend before venturing forward. If the HP
wishes to upgrade the form of communicaôn, it may be done by an
addiônal checks for each encounter throughout that day. If the iniâl
roll is failed, communicaôn is considered to be garbled and not

produc^ve. Any individual checks done that day are one DR harder for the
duraôn of that day. For longer stays, checks can occur on a weekly or
monthly basis.
At any ^me when HPs are interested in overhearing or speaking to
individuals in a foreign tongue use the above chart (remembering the DR
modier if they missed the iniâl ^me frame roll.)
When reading, wri^ng, and transla^ng using linguis^cs assign an
addiônal dr harder and use the table as in secôn III.
If both the FL (or some parâl dialect of the FL) and linguis^cs
is possessed for the purpose of speaking or otherwise, allow two rolls.
=46irst, o of the FL steep. Then, if it is a failure, allow a roll o of
linguis^cs aver applying all the appropriate modiers.

X. Trade Languages.

This language is used to iniâte commerce and communicaôn among
shipping and trade routes. It is most oven an accumulaôn of many parts
of many languages. A potpourri of communicaôn used for barter and
exchange of goods and to some point, informaôn. Most trade languages
are not meant for aristocracy, research, or magick. It simply doesn't have
the complexity to handle such specics and technicaliês. It is oven
viewed as vulgar and gru, thus these languages are almost exclusively
used by middle and lower classes, but rarely by the upper classes. Such
gukural speech is far beneath the staôn of the well to do. Even though
most people understand it, the wealthy oven prefer to ignore it,
jus^fying themselves as promo^ng naônal pride. In conclusion, these
languages are used for travel and trade and is interpreted to loose and
general meanings, except when money is concerned.

XI. Gaining STEEP in Foreign Lands.

Players tend to concentrate on improving Combat and Heka areas
above all others. In order to s^mulate breath in K/S areas, some
incen^ves have been put into place. The rst is an AP/S bonus to HPs who
spend a great deal of ^me in one country. The second type of bonus is for
those who study abroad. The third bonus is for those who ac^vely spend
AP/Gs while spending ^me in a foreign land. These bonuses only apply to
HPs who have spend the ^me, eort, and APs to iniâlly get the FL. It
does not apply to the point where the HP has a steep greater than forty.
Beyond forty, the HP must train or spend APs in the appropriate ways as
detailed in DJ1 (page 134-136.) The jus^caôn for these bonuses is the
ability to learn "by hard knocks."
The reason for the cut o at forty is that some solid research or
jus^caôn should be done for a person to obtain a doctorate level.
Iniâlly, the cut o was at thirty (certainly an opôn for a JM), but
forty seemed more jusêd due to the fact that languages can be mastered
through travel and concentraôn. This level of mastery would appear to be
the same as though someone studied at an ins^tuôn and received a masters
degree. It is agreed that study and travel is the best mix, but to be
balanced, forty seemed to be the right choice. There is a point, however,

where pure exposure would not be enough. Thus it is jusêd by not
allowing the HP to advance beyond forty by this method. JMs should also
keep in mind that if the HP spend all his or her ^me in the slums and
taverns a more appropriate cap might be 20. Whereas those who are hop
nailing with the rich and royalty as well as those who are well read with
the local merchants, investors, mages, and priests should be capped at
forty. The following is a suggested chart for where HPs should be capped
on using this bonus system.

Social Areas HP Akends Steep Cap
Bars, Wharf, Taverns, Slums 20
Businesses, Markets, Laborers 30
Temples, Poli^cs, Schools, Theaters 40

Be loose with these AP/S. If the HP has spent a great deal of ^me
conversing, running a business, involved with the local miliâ or
government on a day to day basis, perhaps a bonus every three or six months
is more applicable. But, if the HP never meets the public, is always
researching, is in solitary connement, the reverse may also be true. In
most instances, HPs are jusêd, even if they only go out to the market
once or twice a week. As a general rule, the HP should be spending 90% of
his or her ^me in the country to get this bonus.
When HPs are based for long terms in foreign lands they may nd it
necessary to adapt to the language most used. They may wish to become more
versed in that par^cular language. As a general rule, HPs gain 1 point of
steep per every year in a foreign land as long as they possess the FL K/S
steep between one and forty. If the HP has spent ^me and APs to iniâlly
learn the FL, he or she will be able to learn some more of the language by
con^nuously being exposed to it and its culture.
Country jumping to gain as many points as possible should be
discouraged. The incen^ve system is meant to be a bonus to reward players
for adventuring and spending ^me in other areas of the world to produce a
worldly role-playing persona. Players who lord rules like these over the
JM should have the appropriate an^-joss in addiôn to their demands.
Similarly, some JMs may allow the same type of advancement for
Na^ve tongue for those patriots who stay at home or Trade language for
those merchants traversing the world.
The fastest way to learn a FL is to train in a country where that
=46L is the primary spoken language and then prac^ce it. Typically it woul=
d
take two-thirds the ^me to to study ( 1/3 with Linguis^cs at hard.)
Again, bonuses should not be allowed past a steep of forty.
If APs are spent, allow a bonus point for every point purchased.
This would only come into eect aver the HP has spent at least three
months in the country. The bonus should not be allows past forty.
These are all mere suggesôns, but it may help players decide to
branch out and expand their personas to include new role playing K/S areas
not commonly used. As a JM, encourage the use of these K/S areas and you
will nd more roll playing opportuniês in your campaign.

XII. Arcane Magickal.

Arcane Magical is not completely described in the Mythus rules.
Some JMs have ruled that this is the language of spellcas^ng. At rst
glance this may appear a simple explanaôn, however it may not be that
consistent. Consider the argument of the Priestcraver. Should he or she
learn arcane magickal to cast spells or should prayers work. How about the
Astrologer, Apotropaist, Exorcist, Hekaforger, etc... It is far to
complicated for each heka cas^ng area to have its own language. It is
equally unjusêd that all these areas, whether physical or spiritual
traits, must be dependent on a mental trait K/S area to perform. Also note
that in the vocaôns documented, only the Dweomercravers have this K/S
area.
A more reasonable explanaôn would be that is it specically
meant for dweomercravers. Although there could be many possibiliês,
only two will be explored. The rst is a mages language meant solely for
those whom cast and research dweomercrav spells (or eyebites, cantrips,
etc...) This language is used to communicate, share ideas, coordinate
cas^ngs, or iden^fy other casters of the crav. This would be similar to
the Thieves Cant language or other languages used by secret organizaôns.
A second possible explanaôn is that Arcane Magickal is the script
used for wri^ng spellbooks and is a heka language that is wriken only.
Eventhough it is under a mental trait, other heka casters could certainly
hire this out as a service or develop it on their own, but it is not
required in order to cast. Base cost for scribing in such a form is 100
heka per hour. Mages, scribes, and anyone with this K/S can then scribe
spellbooks.
Arcane Magickal would then allow the persona to channel heka to
copy spells. This conveniently disallows the prin^ng press potenâl of
spreading cas^ngs around and creates a balanced consequence of reproducing
spellbooks. For a more detail explanaôns and possibiliês, see Appendix
I : Spellbooks.

XIII. Acknowledgements.

Most of this project was done by A J Schmidt. He is most willing
to entertain new ideas, interpretaôns, cri^cism, and addiôns. Please
contact him through SchmidtJ@win.bright.net. Many thoughul insights and
addiôns came from John Teske and Steven Gullerud. Remember all of these
are mere suggesôns and personal interpretaôns of Mythus. Use all, any,
or none and above all...Have Fun! Good gaming!

Appendices

The following are topics not directly related to Languages, but
indirectly discovered when comple^ng this work. Languages are used in the
creaôn of the following, thus they are included as an averthought of
possibiliês. Again, these are only suggesôns used to clarify some
rulings.

Appendix I : Spellbooks.

There exist many theories of how spells are (or should be) recorded in the
Mythus game system. The following appendix is dedicated to describing two
methods. The rst best matches the Mythus system rules, but has some
drawbacks. The second is a modicaôn of the Arcane Magical FL to solve
some of those problems.
The rst method requires no heka. A typical spellbook is simply a
tome of great quality with the wriken instrucôns of how to evoke certain
cas^ngs. This tome can be wriken in any language, encrypted with
symbols, translated by a mental game, use any type of visible spectrum ink
(including infrared through ultraviolet ), or be wriken in invisible ink.

The second method is consistent with the Arcane Magickal secôn
discussed earlier. All spellbooks would be wriken using this heka
language at a cost of 100 heka per hour. AM is the language how to write
spells on prepared parchment, paper, cloth, or the like. The wri^ngs are
in an arcane scripture, designed to hold and protect the power of heka
cas^ngs. The language itself is phone^cally designed to be compa^ble to
any language the writer wishes to use. This is assuming that verbal
components of spells are similar (variances do certainly exist.) Thus an
HP can use Arcane Magickal to scribe his or her spells using the Cel^c
language. This tome could be used by anyone who can read Cel^c and has
the other appropriate means ( K/S area, STEEP, etc...) In addiôn, this
language also reveals the soma^c needs of the cas^ngs by having them
encoded into the script. When a capable persona reads the cas^ng, the
soma^cs are placed into memory and described perfectly. This is why it is
a heka language, for no translated language is perfect. The gestures of
cas^ngs are far to precise to be lev to mere words to explain. AM is
simply the means of wri^ng down the cas^ng. It is a precise and complete
method.
The cost of such spell books will vary through out campaigns,
worlds, and geographical locaôns. The books can be made by any quality,
but should be enchanted by a heka forager or the like to preserve the
quality. As a perspec^ve, consider a scribe as paid at least 20-50 bucs
per hour (more or less may depend on the campaign and the commonality of
scribes.) As a rule, assign one hour per level of the cas^ng and use the
following as a ^me mul^plier depending on the type of cas^ng.

Type of cas^ng Mul^plier
eyebite .25
charm .50
cantrip 1.0
spell 2.0
formula 3.0
ritual 5.0

Using this as a guide, one can determine the cost having others
write spells in spell books. The base cost for the book and ink is highly
variable on the genre and campaign, as stated earlier.
Upon compleôn of the ^me requirements, the scribe must make a
roll verses arcane magical at moderate. The scribe should be in a
rela^vely quiet area working without distracôn. Under normal
circumstances, the cas^ng should be wriken in one siing where the
scribe works uninterrupted for the complete ^me. It will be necessary for
the scribe to make an endurance roll at moderate dr. at end of each six
hours in such a posiôn. Some JMs may consider progressively harder drs.
at every six hours. Those scribes without endurance may instead roll
verses physical trait at extreme. For each failure, the roll vs. Arcane
Magical will be one dr. harder. Also consider the following suggested
situaônal modiers:

Alone in an enclosed area undisturbed 1 dr. easier
Reference material for Arcane magical is available 1 dr. easier
Double ^me is spent on the transcribing 1 dr. easier
Each interrupôn (like knocks, sleep, etc...) 1 dr. harder
Noisy, stressed, distracted (each) 1 dr. harder
Uncomfortable condiôns (cold, hot, ill) 1 dr. harder

This method of copying spellbooks is not altogether unreasonable
when reviewing the Mythus system. The genre supports most cas^ngs to be
known or recallable, not in books. In addiôn, the mentors and teachers
can easily demonstrate soma^c gestures and movements while tutoring, while
wriken language, even with pictures, would make that quite dicult
(perhaps extreme!) Remember these are all opônal rules to be modied at
the JMs discreôn.

Appendix II: Some vague notes on Scrolls.

Since any spell can be read out of a spellbook, there is not strog
support for scrolls as they are used in novels and EGS. Scrolls would be
created as any other magical devise, although individuals may run this
dierently.
Scrolls should be wriken using Arcane Magickal under very special
circumstances. First special inks must be created out of reagent material
with enough heka to power the cas^ng. The ink or paper must also have the
appropriate components built into the ink or the parchment. If the
components are not feasible, alterna^ves should be researched. Possible
areas to do this may include : Arcane Magickal, Heka Forging, Alchemy,
and/or Herbalism.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 11:42:01 -0400
Subject: Re: REFR:languages
In-Reply-To: <v01530500ae14fa933743@[206.68.74.135]>

John
An excellent ar^cle! I hear^ly suggest it get into whatever Web sites
end up being around! :)

One point I would like to make about Languages: Why the heck (other than
to make the game easier) is there a Trade Language??? Look at today, no
one will accept a "world-tongue".

It would add more foreign language fun without thhe Trade language
junk...oh well, one more rule to change... :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 11:52:25 -0400

>...and thus qualify for Druidic vocaôn(no I'm not pos^ng it,
>but I will e-mail it to anyone who wants it).

I'd like to see a copy, myself :)

Thanks in advance,
Charles
hagendaz@prolog.net
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 11:52:29 -0400

>The issue here is not educaôn. The HP is free(by the rules) to choose the
>Religion and Priestcraev K/S areas. These areas will even generate Heka for
>them in the same manner as it does for all HPs. The issue is the HP's
>ability to fully channel Heka in either Mental or Spiritual areas

Bell went o here.... FP's are possible in Mental or Spiritual, why not
Physical? How about giving prac^ôners devoted to Heka-Forging a chance
at full prac^ce? I remember an Ar^cer vocaôn being posted, although
I can't look it up because I'm on a dierent computer, but that could
serve as a basis. These people could be the creators of Major Ar^facts,
like the Epic of Aerth Items.

Comments, anyone?

Charles Hagenbuch
hagendaz@prolog.net
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 11:01:09 -0700
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.93.960719114029.15102D-100000@orichalc.acsu.bualo.edu> from "Jesse" at
Jul 19,
96 11:42:01 am

Jesse wrote:
>
> One point I would like to make about Languages: Why the heck (other than
> to make the game easier) is there a Trade Language??? Look at today, no
> one will accept a "world-tongue".
>
> It would add more foreign language fun without thhe Trade language
> junk...oh well, one more rule to change... :)

Actually, according to Epic of Aerth (IIRC), Trade Phoenecian is
quite a bit less than a "world language". It's use is common only
in Europa and other regions nearby. Even then, only the highly educated
can be counted on knowing it, and its use in Atlantl wouldn't
exactly be wise...

You could say that English today has about the same standing as Trade
Phoenecian does on Aerth. In history, La^n and Greek held slightly
dierent (but similar) status as widely known languages. In their
case, however, I think they were used more as "languages of scholars"
than for trade.

Of course, Trade-Phoenecian is probably in the game to ease
communicaôn. But, it isn't exactly without a parallel in the
real world.

Steven
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 15:52:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Armor

Regarding Strike Locaôns:

It has been my policy to simply declare by JM at where a blow lands, based
on the result of a roll, as necessary to add color to a game. In most cases
all the players want to know is whether the hit was Vital, Ultra-Vital, or
otherwise.

Given this, it doesn't maker what armor cover what, since the blow's value
tells me in general where the possibiliês lie, i.e. an Ultra-Vital is an
area that could cause death extremely quickly, though not necessarily, or to
a lesser area but a stronger blow. An example would be a leg hit, where
Non-Vital might be a direct but shallow cut and Ultra-Vital would be a
femoral artery severing. (Earlier this year there was a looong discussion
about whether or not groin shots are Ultra-Vital, but I don't want to get
into that again.)

Given that this is Mythus(TM) and not Rolemaster(TM), I don't want to dwell
on those details. But if you do, check out the Armor Categories chart pn
page 247 of the Mythus book for a guide as to what covers what.

I hope this helps.
Don
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 17:00:26 -0400
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.93.960719114029.15102D-100000@orichalc.acsu.bualo.edu>

[Jesse said:]
> One point I would like to make about Languages: Why the heck (other than
> to make the game easier) is there a Trade Language??? Look at today, no
> one will accept a "world-tongue".

But everyone strives for a "world-tongue", that's why we have them. It's
useful to be able to communicate with people so lingua francas develop
that accomplish this. French was something of a "world" lingua franca,
so you're passport's in French and it's the "language of diplomacy".
English is the world lingua franca today, maybe 100 years from now it'll
be Mandarin...Not only is Trade Language a Good Thing(tm) in game terms
since you can talk to people, but it's based in reality and I'm sure Gary
or Dave pakerned it aver the original "lingua franca" of our earth,
which was a trade language used in the medieval Mediterranean, IIRC.
Now, whether or not everyone should *know* such a language is another
maker...

I'm just the kind of person to be picky about this language ar^cle, but
I honestly only perused it and thus can't oer much insighul
commentary yet (if ever!), but I am glad to see people at least
interested in it!

Ciao,
Patrick M.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 19:09:58 -0400


>...and thus qualify for Druidic vocaôn(no I'm not pos^ng it,
>but I will e-mail it to anyone who wants it).

I'd like to see it...thanks
Chainmail@aol.com

Bill
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 19:21:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Trade Languages

> Of course, Trade-Phoenecian is probably in the game to ease
> communicaôn. But, it isn't exactly without a parallel in the
> real world.

Not at all. Koine Greek, Swahili, and the various forms of Pidjin are all
examples of trade languages.

LKW
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 21:19:09 -0500

>Jesse wrote:
>>
>> One point I would like to make about Languages: Why the heck (other than
>> to make the game easier) is there a Trade Language??? Look at today, no
>> one will accept a "world-tongue".
>>
>> It would add more foreign language fun without thhe Trade language
>> junk...oh well, one more rule to change... :)
>
>
> Actually, according to Epic of Aerth (IIRC), Trade Phoenecian is
>quite a bit less than a "world language". It's use is common only
>in Europa and other regions nearby. Even then, only the highly educated
>can be counted on knowing it, and its use in Atlantl wouldn't
>exactly be wise...
>
> You could say that English today has about the same standing as Trade
>Phoenecian does on Aerth. In history, La^n and Greek held slightly
>dierent (but similar) status as widely known languages. In their
>case, however, I think they were used more as "languages of scholars"
>than for trade.
>
> Of course, Trade-Phoenecian is probably in the game to ease
>communicaôn. But, it isn't exactly without a parallel in the
>real world.
>
>Steven

Thanks Steven, we speak the same, well er.., language! :)

AJ
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 14:11:15 -0400

At 11:42 AM 7/19/96 -0400, Jesse wrote:
>John>
>An excellent ar^cle! I hear^ly suggest it get into whatever Web sites
>end up being around! :)
>
It's already up there.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 17:59:32 -0700

>Bell went o here.... FP's are possible in Mental or Spiritual, why not
>Physical? How about giving prac^ôners devoted to Heka-Forging a chance

>at full prac^ce? I remember an Ar^cer vocaôn being posted, although
>I can't look it up because I'm on a dierent computer, but that could
>serve as a basis.

Its a nice idea, but that really wasn't the way I envisioned the ar^cer.
I think of a FP Heka Forger more like a Dwarven smith or elven
bowyer/etcher or armorsmith or fabric maker(two words-spidersilk
armor)==>more a magical emphasis.

BTW, the idea for the ar^cer was taken from a Fard/Grey Mouser book.
Forget which one. An ar^cer made some kind of climbing sta for the pair.

Symbiote

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 22:35:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Armor

At , you wrote:
>>How can we be exactly sure what body parts the armors listed actually cover.
>>I understand how to
>>gure out what areas they protect(UVSN)...but I mean the actual body
>>locaôns. Such as the 12 dierent
>>locaôns armor can be...ie head, hand, thigh...etc. The descripôns are
>>unclear as to exactly what parts
>>the armor covers. It is stated that armor can't overlap other armor in the
>>book...a person would have
>>to be an armor historian to know what all the dierent armor pieces
>>cover... Can any help me out here?
>
>Jason Edward Bilbrey

Hey guys! I found out how to PERFECTLY answer my own quesôn:

If any of you own the Mythus JM Screen. The updated charts in the likle book
that comes with the screen has a NEW eld. It lists what body locaôns each
kind of armor covers. All body posiôns from 1-12 are listed!!! Check it out
if there is enough need I might scan it in and post it on this mailing list, but
I'm not sure of the legality...someone here could tell me if that's okay to do
or not...
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Edward Bilbrey

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 09:14:41 -0500
In-Reply-To: <960719192145_365282527@emout09.mail.aol.com> from "Loren
Wiseman" at Jul 19, 96 07:21:46 pm

> > Of course, Trade-Phoenecian is probably in the game to ease
> > communicaôn. But, it isn't exactly without a parallel in the
> > real world.
>
> Not at all. Koine Greek, Swahili, and the various forms of Pidjin are all
> examples of trade languages.
>

True, however two disagreements with the above statement. 1, No two forms
of Pidjin are the same or even mutually intelligable; and 2, Pidjins are
not technically langauges. Creoles, very similar to Pidjins are "true"
languages. No one grows up knowing a Pidjin as their primary langauge
the children living in communiês that speak a form of Pidjin form a
Creole language if they are not taught their parent's na^ve tounge at
home.

Linguis^c lecture aside, I don't believe there should be a langauge
listed on the charts as a "trade langauge", rather I would prefer to
have it known that those who speak Koine Greek, Swahili and/or
Phonecian speak the "trade language" of a certain trading area. Minor
point, true but I think it makes a big dierence in dening the seing.

Dan W.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 11:30:56 -0400
In-Reply-To: <m0uiLtq-000AjUC@Uucp1.mcs.net>

On Mon, 22 Jul 1996, Dan Williamson wrote:

> > > Of course, Trade-Phoenecian is probably in the game to ease
> > > communicaôn. But, it isn't exactly without a parallel in the
> > > real world.
> >
> > Not at all. Koine Greek, Swahili, and the various forms of Pidjin are all
> > examples of trade languages.
> >
>
> True, however two disagreements with the above statement. 1, No two forms
> of Pidjin are the same or even mutually intelligable; and 2, Pidjins are
> not technically langauges. Creoles, very similar to Pidjins are "true"
> languages. No one grows up knowing a Pidjin as their primary langauge
> the children living in communiês that speak a form of Pidjin form a
> Creole language if they are not taught their parent's na^ve tounge at
> home.

Well, I in turn may be in disagreement here. By most of the criteria I
might choose for determining what a language is,pidgins will pass. They
may be "decient" in one or more ways, as indeed they are not as complex
as creoles. But simple or not I would consider them lingua francas and
languages.

Also, I don't think an asserôn was made regarding the mutual
intelligiblity of pidgins. Rather it was simply said that pidgins were
trade languages (I assume meaning most of them develop to facilitate
communicaôn for economic development). The fact that pidgins in two
parts of Africa are not mutually intelligible does not diminish their
roles as lingua francas for people of that area, even though they may not
be regional or world lingua francas.

> Linguis^c lecture aside, I don't believe there should be a
langauge
> listed on the charts as a "trade langauge", rather I would prefer to
> have it known that those who speak Koine Greek, Swahili and/or
> Phonecian speak the "trade language" of a certain trading area. Minor
> point, true but I think it makes a big dierence in dening the seing.

I don't see why a fantasy seing can't have a trade language that works
on a slightly larger scale. Presumably one of the only factors that kept
the original lingua franca from more widespread use was exposure - with
magickal means of communicaôn, why not have more people be exposed to
the language and thus decide to use it? If English is a widespread
lingua franca now, why can't Trade Phonecian be on AErth?

I think the important thing to keep in mind is (since everyone seems
really to be adverse to the idea of a 'universal tongue') that this is a
*trade* language. It's probably a pidgin or maybe a creole, so while you
may be able to get that merchant from Albion to understand how much you
want for your goods from your na^ve Rus, don't try to write poetry or
discuss philosophy in it! (And don't let your players do it, either!)

Best,
Patrick M.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 11:50:38 -0400
In-Reply-To: <Pine.CVX.3.91.960722111320.19197A-100000@gibbs.oit.unc.edu>

> Well, I in turn may be in disagreement here. By most of the criteria I
> might choose for determining what a language is,pidgins will pass. They
> may be "decient" in one or more ways, as indeed they are not as complex
> as creoles. But simple or not I would consider them lingua francas and
> languages.

I thought "lingua franca" was a "world tongue" which none of these is.
True, mul^ple cultures may use them, but hardly the en^re world! Now,
all I was trying to say in my original post about "trade language" was
that I don't think it should be possible for people ALL Over the world to
learn the same thing. Using mul^ple trade tongues for dierent regions
(like Swahili in Afrik) is a FAR beker soluôn, and whether or not it's
a "true" language (whatever that is) doesn't maker...

I was just rying to add avor to my game...

Jesse

> I don't see why a fantasy seing can't have a trade language that works
> on a slightly larger scale. Presumably one of the only factors that kept
> the original lingua franca from more widespread use was exposure - with
> magickal means of communicaôn, why not have more people be exposed to
> the language and thus decide to use it? If English is a widespread
> lingua franca now, why can't Trade Phonecian be on AErth?

English isn't really, and exposure isn't the only thing. Look at why the
French outlawed using English in adver^sing--cultures have their iden^ty
hidden amongst their languages, and generally don't want to give that up,
as it could, among other things, show that the other culture (Phoenecian
in this case) is economically superior.

> I think the important thing to keep in mind is (since everyone seems
> really to be adverse to the idea of a 'universal tongue') that this is a
> *trade* language. It's probably a pidgin or maybe a creole, so while you
> may be able to get that merchant from Albion to understand how much you
> want for your goods from your na^ve Rus, don't try to write poetry or
> discuss philosophy in it! (And don't let your players do it, either!)

Now this is what I agree with! :)

Jesse

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 12:42:54 -0400

If I remember correctly from the rule book(s), Trade Phonecian is a true
subset of Phonecian, which is what all na^ves of those countries speak.
Thus, it's virtually a true language, rather than an amalgam such as Vardish.

It has likely been aquired due to the Phonecian's dominaôn of the sea
trade, and thus became a standard due to popularity, much as Hiero-AEgypân
has become part and parcel of dweomercraev due to the AEgypân
contribuôns and dominance of that K/S area.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 13:39:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Trade Languages reprise
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.93.960722114550.2764B-100000@lictor.acsu.bualo.edu>

I don't think there's as much disagreement around here as is currently
believed...

> > Well, I in turn may be in disagreement here. By most of the criteria I
> > might choose for determining what a language is,pidgins will pass. They
> > may be "decient" in one or more ways, as indeed they are not as complex
> > as creoles. But simple or not I would consider them lingua francas and
> > languages.
>
> I thought "lingua franca" was a "world tongue" which none of these is.
> True, mul^ple cultures may use them, but hardly the en^re world! Now,
> all I was trying to say in my original post about "trade language" was
> that I don't think it should be possible for people ALL Over the world to
> learn the same thing. Using mul^ple trade tongues for dierent regions
> (like Swahili in Afrik) is a FAR beker soluôn, and whether or not it's
> a "true" language (whatever that is) doesn't maker...

Whether or not this is a "true" language wasn't the point, simply me
nitpicking with someone else's nitpicking! We are basically in

agreement. A lingua franca is simply any language which is used to
facilitate communicaôn between people who don't share a na^ve language
(i.e. you wouldn't want to call English our lingua franca since I think
we're both na^ve speakers). While it *should* be possible for people
all over the world to learn the same language, I agree it *would* likely
not be possible. I have no real beef here - mul^ple trade languages in
mul^ple regions is certainly not going to get any complaint from me - I
was merely sugges^ng that Trade Phonecian (which may exist side-by-side
with Swahilhi et al.) could be a kind of 'common tongue', with widespread
use, just as English is today, especially since Magick would aid both
communicaôn and merchants' ability to get to remote locales. I would
be skep^cal that Trade Phonecian was well known in Nippon...but a JM may
have some jus^caôn for having OPs from Nippon speak it.

> I was just rying to add avor to my game...

Amen. Language is a good way to do it.

> > I don't see why a fantasy seing can't have a trade language that works
> > on a slightly larger scale. Presumably one of the only factors that kept
> > the original lingua franca from more widespread use was exposure - with
> > magickal means of communicaôn, why not have more people be exposed to
> > the language and thus decide to use it? If English is a widespread
> > lingua franca now, why can't Trade Phonecian be on AErth?
>
> English isn't really, and exposure isn't the only thing. Look at why the
> French outlawed using English in adver^sing--cultures have their iden^ty
> hidden amongst their languages, and generally don't want to give that up,
> as it could, among other things, show that the other culture (Phoenecian
> in this case) is economically superior.

Hmm, English really isn't what? Widespread? A lingua franca, and
perhaps a "world" lingua franca as well? Then we are denitely in
disagreement here. But maybe you meant something else. And I was
simplifying the case for language spread, but "cultural iden^ty" rarely
does much to prevent language change or spread, and the French will learn
that language policy will likely bite them in the keyster... :^P The
jist was Trade Phonecian could enjoy widespread use because AErth possess
means to spread it which our Medieval earth did not.

> > I think the important thing to keep in mind is (since everyone seems
> > really to be adverse to the idea of a 'universal tongue') that this is a
> > *trade* language. It's probably a pidgin or maybe a creole, so while you
> > may be able to get that merchant from Albion to understand how much you
> > want for your goods from your na^ve Rus, don't try to write poetry or
> > discuss philosophy in it! (And don't let your players do it, either!)
>
> Now this is what I agree with! :)

Perhaps my original thinking about this centered on AEropa, but I do

think, again, that a JM (if you wanna implement some kind of 'common'
tongue) is jusêd in presen^ng Trade Phonecian as a widespread lingua
franca throughout AEropa, northern Afrik, and Middle Azir, as well as
Vargaard. The Phonecians and their trade language may have penetrated
farther, considering the "world" scope of AErth and magickal aid. This
would certainly not preclude other Trade Languages, indeed I am not
advoca^ng that they not be included. Just a suggesôn that those who
don't want to deal with the language issue may be able to jus^fy this
Trade Language business if they limit what can be accomplished in it and
who might know it (e.g. no peasants need apply)! YMMV.

Ciao,
Patrick
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 16:34:44 -0400

>I thought "lingua franca" was a "world tongue" which none of these is.
>True, mul^ple cultures may use them, but hardly the en^re world! Now,
>all I was trying to say in my original post about "trade language" was
>that I don't think it should be possible for people ALL Over the world to
>learn the same thing.

Yah, and as it says in both books 1 and 3, Trade Phoenecian isn't universal
at all. It is most common in AEropa and fades in use outwards from there,
un^l it is almost unknown in the An^podes (as they used to call Japan). It
also varies in its occurance by a given speaker's SEC. So don't use Trade
Phoeniecian as a common tongue worldwide and you should be OK.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 14:28:23 -0700
Subject: Re: Trade Languages reprise

This is what I use

Trade Pheonecian==>Inland Sea(Mediterranian)
Norse==>Northern Europe, Skandian countries, Southern Albion
Aegypân==>Middle eastern
Kell^c==>Rest of Albion/Hibernia, Francia

There is no specic Common

Knowing Norse and Trade Phonecian will get you very far for the basics.

Mike

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 19:24:00 -0500
From: "Westphalen, Wayne" <wwestphalen@RADISSON.COM>
Subject: Re: Request
X-To: "John R. Troy" <johntroy@TIAC.NET>

>Hi all,
>
>Okay, I've done the iniâl layout of the site. It should look ne, and I
>may have xed the Cyberdog problem (E-Mail me MAC users).

This is a test. Please ignore

Wayne

---------From: John R. Troy
To: Mul^ple recipients of list MYTHUS-L
Subject: Request
Date: Monday, July 15, 1996 10:43AM

To save "bandwidth" (hate that term), please E-Mail me if you have any
technical problems/comments/suggesôns other than general layout
quesôns.
I s^ll like discussing here whether or not the site is organized right
and
if its what you want.

I won't be able to work on it for about 10 days or so, but aver that I
can
spend some ^me. Thus, I want you to E-Mail me any ar^cles you want
posted
to the web site, star^ng this weekend. (Don't rush it now!!!)

The best format you can give me is either ASCII or HTML. It makes the
conversion process go a lot quicker. I can accept akachments via my
account.

I plan to add at least one submiked le/day aver that.

One nal suggesôn. I think it would be best, if you send me
ar^cles,
not to refer to TSR as T$R or the like. What I'm kind of hoping is,
once
TSR gets around to crea^ng a true web site, that Mak's site could
become
the ocial "mirror" or even the site for "Mythus/DJ". (It might
actually
make sense for them to have a seperate site for Mythus). (I'm only
working
on it right now because we're not compe^ng or viola^ng TSR un^l they
get
their own website setup, thus it's legal).

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 04:07:22 -0400

At 11:52 AM 7/19/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>The issue here is not educaôn. The HP is free(by the rules) to choose the
>>Religion and Priestcraev K/S areas. These areas will even generate Heka for
>>them in the same manner as it does for all HPs. The issue is the HP's
>>ability to fully channel Heka in either Mental or Spiritual areas
>
>Bell went o here.... FP's are possible in Mental or Spiritual, why not
>Physical? How about giving prac^ôners devoted to Heka-Forging a chance
>at full prac^ce? I remember an Ar^cer vocaôn being posted, although
>I can't look it up because I'm on a dierent computer, but that could
>serve as a basis. These people could be the creators of Major Ar^facts,
>like the Epic of Aerth Items.
>
>Comments, anyone?

(MJW)
Ok, this is what I think. Its not a bad idea. One would of course have to
write up a Heka-Forging Vocaôn. Let's keep in mind that FP only means a
mul^plier of 10 on the iniâl STEEP. The modier to Heka-Forging is
(PMPow + PNPow)x.05 and in Dweomercraev it is MMCap and Priestcraev SM
Cap. The base STEEP for Dweomercraever and Priests is 24 so even if a

Heka-Forger were given this STEEP he/she would s^ll generate less Heka.

The other issue would be that Dweomercraev and Priestcraev have to be
balanced with magick and religion respec^vely, because the mul^plier of 10
is applied to the lower score, so what is Heka-Forging balanced
with(Smith/Welding..Gemsmithing???) ? I would suggest that a HP have to
take Smith/Welding and Gemsmith/Lapidary (both Heka producing) and have to
take the mutliplier on the lowest STEEP of the three.

Would be are there any restricôns on the Heka? For instance Astronomy
produces Heka for(but only for) Astrology, this is also true of
Smith/welding for Heka-Forging. Would all the Heka have to be applied only
to Heka-Forging? I would be tempted to say yes. That the HP could have
other Heka producing areas(and TRAIT heka) for any other cas^ngs but that
the FP bonus was limited to Heka-Forging.

Here's a quesôn, couldn't this all be handled by allowing the pracôneer
of Heka-Forging to make a Vow? Even the Greek Gods had a weaponsmith.

Comments,cri^que,suggesôns, as always welcome.

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver

>
>Charles Hagenbuch
>hagendaz@prolog.net
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 12:28:59 -0500

> > True, however two disagreements with the above statement. 1, No two forms
> > of Pidjin are the same or even mutually intelligable; and 2, Pidjins are
> > not technically langauges. Creoles, very similar to Pidjins are "true"
> > languages. No one grows up knowing a Pidjin as their primary langauge
> > the children living in communiês that speak a form of Pidjin form a
> > Creole language if they are not taught their parent's na^ve tounge at
> > home.
>
> Well, I in turn may be in disagreement here. By most of the criteria I
> might choose for determining what a language is,pidgins will pass. They
> may be "decient" in one or more ways, as indeed they are not as complex
> as creoles. But simple or not I would consider them lingua francas and
> languages.

Pidgins (the spelling used in my linguis^c book) are "a system of
communicaôn which has grown up among people who do not share a common
language, but who want to talk to each other, for trading or other
reasons." (The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language, David Crystal)

Sounds like the perfect deniôn of a trade "language" to me. I agree
with you completely that only a limited amount of communicaôn can be
conducted in any Pidgin. It is s^ll not a full edged language, its
more like everybody learning a series of words in a bunch of languages
and using them to communicate. Example: Electricity no get leg na
kabelmetal cable de carry am (Tr: Electricity has no legs: it's
Kabelmetal cable that carries it.)

A creole on the other hand is "a pidgin language which has become the
mother tongue of a community - a deniôn which emphasizes that pidgins
and creoles are two stages in a single process of linguis^c development."
(again the Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language.)

The book lists some 100 current and historical Pidgins and Creoles and
their uses. Quite interes^ng. To get this back on a gaming track, I
would give a character who knows how to speak "trade language" the
ability to learn and understand a creole or pidgin based on one or more
languages that the character already knows to some extent. OR the
character could learn a specic creole or pidgin the same as any other
language. And consequently be limited in the same way. Thus if you
spoke french and english and had some skill in trade language I would
give you an increased chance of communica^ng in French Creole (as
popularized in Louisiana, USA) or maybe Gullah (Georgia, USA coast
islands). This is more work for the GM in advance but I think it would
be worth it (especially for someone interested in linguis^cs like I am).

I think world building and GM'ing are incredibly complex tasks that
really should be done with the assistance of the en^re group. It allows
each person who has a special intrest or talent in a par^cular aspect of
world design to concentrate.

Dan W.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 21:21:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Trade Languages and (really) gaming
In-Reply-To: <m0uilMs-000B0XC@Uucp1.mcs.net>

There might actually be something worth reading for non-linguists by the
end of this, I promise!

> Pidgins (the spelling used in my linguis^c book) are "a system of
> communicaôn which has grown up among people who do not share a common
> language, but who want to talk to each other, for trading or other
> reasons." (The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language, David Crystal)

Or put another way "a lingua franca with a highly simplied gramma^cal
structure that has emerged as a mixture of two or more languages and has
no na^ve speakers". A lingua franca being "a language...blah blah", so
it's a language, albeit a "broken" one.

> Sounds like the perfect deniôn of a trade "language" to me. I agree
> with you completely that only a limited amount of communicaôn can be
> conducted in any Pidgin. It is s^ll not a full edged language, its
> more like everybody learning a series of words in a bunch of languages
> and using them to communicate. Example: Electricity no get leg na
> kabelmetal cable de carry am (Tr: Electricity has no legs: it's
> Kabelmetal cable that carries it.)

But it's not just a series of words in a bunch of languages, and this may
be of interest to people who want to puzzle out what Trade Phonecian or
any other trade language/pidgin may be like. These pidgins have grammars
and phonological systems too. Oven one 'contribu^ng' language is the
superstratum language, which basically means it's the lingo of the "guys
on top" (i.e. the more powerful culture/guys with the bigger guns) and
this is where most of the words come from. (No^ce the example cited
above looks like garbled English - guess who had the bigger guns?)
Meanwhile, the pidgin gets most of its grammar from the na^ves' tongue,
as they are not likely to give up the systems now ingrained in them since
birth. So as far as game design, you could give your trade languages
some character by deciding where the majority of words come from (people
in power) and then make the grammar more closely resemble the substratum
language (that of the invaded/less inuenâl cultures).

> The book lists some 100 current and historical Pidgins and Creoles and
> their uses. Quite interes^ng. To get this back on a gaming track, I
> would give a character who knows how to speak "trade language" the
> ability to learn and understand a creole or pidgin based on one or more
> languages that the character already knows to some extent. OR the
> character could learn a specic creole or pidgin the same as any other
> language. And consequently be limited in the same way. Thus if you
> spoke french and english and had some skill in trade language I would
> give you an increased chance of communica^ng in French Creole (as
> popularized in Louisiana, USA) or maybe Gullah (Georgia, USA coast
> islands). This is more work for the GM in advance but I think it would
> be worth it (especially for someone interested in linguis^cs like I am).

I bet there are few of us who t that category! [everyone else has this
thread in the kill le by now]
I think your treatment of creoles/pidgins and their "mother" tongues is a good
one. Perhaps by looking at the language tables in Mythus we could devise
some actual numbers for some pidgins/creoles of AErth.

> I think world building and GM'ing are incredibly complex tasks that
> really should be done with the assistance of the en^re group. It allows
> each person who has a special intrest or talent in a par^cular aspect of
> world design to concentrate.

True, I always needed someone to do the history part for me...and the
maps...and...

Ciao,
Patrick
[welcoming *private* e-mail for further debate!]
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 22:47:45 -0400
From: Harry Hellerschmid <harry@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Gree^ngs

Hello everyone,

Just wondering if there is a program out there that generates Mythus
Characters. Hope you guys can help.

Thanx,
Harry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The only people who make mistakes are those who do things. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message from: harry@ionline.net
Web Page : hkp://www.ionline.net/~harry
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 01:54:12 +0100
Subject: Re: Gree^ngs

>Hello everyone,
>
> Just wondering if there is a program out there that generates Mythus
>Characters. Hope you guys can help.
>
>Thanx,
> Harry

There isn't much out there, though I keep hearing that there are plenty
such programs in the works. I do have an OP creator for Excel (4.0 for the
Mac), but it isn't very elaborate. It works for me though.

Tom

Food for thought:

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 03:39:35 EDT
From: Balthazar <s0rjbarb@TITAN.VCU.EDU>
Subject: unsubscribe help

-+--------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
| Balthazar | Isaiah 40:31 |
| s0rjbarb@hibbs.vcu.edu | But those who hope in the Lord will |
| Bert | renew their strength. They will soar |
| | on wings like eagles; they will run and |
| | not grow weary, they will walk and not |
| | be faint.
+--------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 13:57:10 -0400

At 01:54 AM 7/24/96 +0100, you wrote:
>>Hello everyone,
>>
>> Just wondering if there is a program out there that generates Mythus
>>Characters. Hope you guys can help.
>>
>>Thanx,
>> Harry
>
I believe there is a HP program on Mikes MYTHUS Page. A search using the
word MYTHUS will bring it up if not let me know and I'll post the full address.

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 14:33:31 -0400

In-Reply-To: <199607241757.NAA22483@darius.cris.com>

On Wed, 24 Jul 1996, Michae J. Weaver wrote:

> At 01:54 AM 7/24/96 +0100, you wrote:
> >> Just wondering if there is a program out there that generates Mythus
> >>Characters. Hope you guys can help.
> >>
> I believe there is a HP program on Mikes MYTHUS Page. A search using the
> word MYTHUS will bring it up if not let me know and I'll post the full address.

There are, at this point in ^me, ve programs available from my
programs page at:
hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/programs/

I had a hand in DJ Char, but wouldn't necessarily recommend it for the
faint of heart ;-) The others include two windows programs (one HP
generator, one die roller, neither tested by me), and a Mac database
program in FileMaker. At least, I think it's a Mac database :-)

DJ Char would be easily adapted to Turbo Pascal on the Mac (I should
know, I did it once, long ago), and the source *is* available. I can't
nd my compiled copy (never did run under anything aver System 7.1
anyways).

There's also one called HPGEN.exe, but I haven't the faintest what it does.

Maybe Lucifer would forward his armor program to me? ;-)

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 14:43:38 -0400

In a message dated 96-07-24 14:32:41 EDT,Mike wrote:

>and a Mac database
>program in FileMaker. At least, I think it's a Mac database :-)
>
>

The database structure for FileMaker is the same for Mac / Windows. So it's
both.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 15:43:23 -0400
Reply-To: macgyver@innet.com
From: Wilson MacGyver <macgyver@INFINET.COM>
Organizaôn: CylaTech Inc.

Mike Phillips wrote:

> There's also one called HPGEN.exe, but I haven't the faintest what it does.

I wrote that, as part of a lab project to test my C++ classes I
designed.

Though I think the web page copy is corrupt.
I've been meaning to update the program, but haven't goken around to it
yet.
I s^ll want it to be a DOS program, though with a text mode GUI. I also
am
just about done with the Equipment and the Skill indexes...
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 16:06:03 -0400
Reply-To: macgyver@innet.com
From: Wilson MacGyver <macgyver@INFINET.COM>
Organizaôn: CylaTech Inc.

This is a mul^-part message in MIME format.

--------------789F795D4A1C
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

hey, here is a copy of the program, in the zip format.

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Content-Type: applicaôn/x-zip-compressed; name="mhpgen.ZIP"
Content-Disposiôn: inline; lename="mhpgen.ZIP"

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--------------789F795D4A1C-=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 00:05:20 -0400


>One point I would like to make about Languages: Why the heck (other than
>to make the game easier) is there a Trade Language??? Look at today, no
>one will accept a "world-tongue".
>
>It would add more foreign language fun without thhe Trade language
>junk...oh well, one more rule to change... :)

Someone's probably already beat me to this, but I'll post a response
anyways...

The refusal of the internaônal society to sekle on one 'common tongue' is
a fairly recent event, historically speaking. It has a lot to do with the
rise of naônalism during the beginning of the Industrial Revoluôn.
Anyways, during those heady medieval days, La^n was a form of trade
language. Basically, an educated man from northern Scotland could travel to
Alexandria, Egypt, and s^ll be able to get around (at least in
educated...or, rather, religious circles). During the years between the fall
of Babylon and the rise of the Greeks, Phoenician was most probably used as a
trade language in a similar manner.

Basically, there is a great deal of historical precedent for such a thing,
and even today, English is (unfortunately) fast becoming a trade language, of
sorts. Chances are, any tourist spot in the world, every merchant will be
able to speak at least a smakering of English. Of course, some might not
tell _you_ that...

Lucifer >:}
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 18:46:02 -0400

>Basically, there is a great deal of historical precedent for such a thing,
>and even today, English is (unfortunately) fast becoming a trade language,
>of
>sorts. Chances are, any tourist spot in the world, every merchant will be
>able to speak at least a smakering of English. Of course, some might not
>tell _you_ that..

The same could hold true for Trade Phoenecian. Just because a peasant has a
small chance of knowing TP, there's always that one guy whose mother was the
daughter of a wealthy merchant, but she chose to give up all her wealth for
the true love of an honest peasant man. She might share her knowledge of
Trade Phoenecian with her son.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 01:30:45 -0700
From: Jeremy Dahlin <dahli923@UIDAHO.EDU>
Subject: Marâl Arts

I have a quesôn about the marâl arts rules ar^cle in
one of the Dangerous Ideas. On all of the techniques tables
there is a column ^tled Atk/Ct. What does this stand for?
Is it maximum akacks, and if so how is switching techniques
aected by this? I'd appreciate any help I can get. Thanks

Jeremy
"May be innocent, may be sweet, isn't half as nice as ro^ng meat."
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 08:20:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Marâl Arts

At 01:30 AM 7/29/96 -0700, Jeremy Dahlin wrote:
>I have a quesôn about the marâl arts rules ar^cle in
>one of the Dangerous Ideas. On all of the techniques tables
>there is a column ^tled Atk/Ct. What does this stand for?
>Is it maximum akacks, and if so how is switching techniques
>aected by this? I'd appreciate any help I can get. Thanks
>
It's the number of Akacks/Combat Turn.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:22:43 -0500
In-Reply-To: <960728184602_586851487@emout08.mail.aol.com> from "Lisa Lorens"
at Jul 28, 96 06:46:02 pm

> >Basically, there is a great deal of historical precedent for such a thing,
> >and even today, English is (unfortunately) fast becoming a trade language,
> >of
> >sorts. Chances are, any tourist spot in the world, every merchant will be
> >able to speak at least a smakering of English. Of course, some might not
> >tell _you_ that..
>
> The same could hold true for Trade Phoenecian. Just because a peasant has a
> small chance of knowing TP, there's always that one guy whose mother was the
> daughter of a wealthy merchant, but she chose to give up all her wealth for
> the true love of an honest peasant man. She might share her knowledge of
> Trade Phoenecian with her son.

People seem to be forgeing that pidgins/trade languages are not known
by the upper/educated classes but by the lower/labor classes. Thus
peasants in an area where a pidgin exists are much MORE likely to know
the trade language than the educated/upper classes.

The upper/educated classes will know more actual languages or hire
interpreters. Why speak pidgin english when you can learn to speak
real english or hire an interpreter to speak for you? Na^ve speakers
look down on speakers of pidgins because they sound like baby speakers
or really uneducated speakers.

Dan.
Language Policeman. :)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 16:10:06 -0400


>The upper/educated classes will know more actual languages or hire
>interpreters. Why speak pidgin english when you can learn to speak
>real english or hire an interpreter to speak for you? Na^ve speakers
>look down on speakers of pidgins because they sound like baby speakers
>or really uneducated speakers.

This may be true for pidgin English, but it's not very true at all if you
take an ancient/medieval slant to it. Very, very few members of the lower
classes had any reason to learn any language other than their own and a
smakering of the language of their ruling class (this is par^cularly
evident in England aver 1066, but holds true with other naôns, as
well...par^cularly those conquered by the Romans). Chances are, the people
doing the most trade are going to be upper class or whatever middle class
exists. Once you get into the Renaissance and the later Industrial
Revoluôn, this sort of thing, of course, switches around quite a bit, as
the middle class begins to grow larger and more wealthy, and assumes the bulk
of a naôn's economic responsibiliês.

Oh, there's one more I forgot that's preky important to medieval life:
Hebrew. It served, basically, in the same fashion as La^n did, except it
was used in the Jewish community, of course. Knowledge of Hebrew helped
medieval science a great, great deal, as it was primarily Jewish scholars who
translated the Arabic medical and scien^c texts that they had contact with
in modern day Spain (and the Arabs had translated it from ancient
Greek...kinda nivy how these things have a tendency to come full circle).

Lucifer >:}
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 17:25:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Marâl Arts

Where can the old DI's be found? Which issue deals with marâl arts?

Thanks for your help,

Jason
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 15:22:34 -0700

Subject: MMM

Any new word on MMM????

The Symbiote

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 16:20:45 -0700
Subject: Beasâry 2

I am inthe process of making/wri^ng descripôn of each of the
facôns of the Unseelie(the drow, the slaugh, and the goblins-of course
there are drakes, but they are not really a "facôn") Unfortunately, the
copy I downloaded has a screwed up paging thing. The page break are
irregular. Now I am assuming that this was done purposefully for some
reason I am not aware of.

How can I undo this thing?? Its geing annoying.

Thanks

Mike

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 22:25:20 -0400
Subject: Re: MMM

At 03:22 PM 7/29/96 -0700, Chris Calvert wrote:
>Any new word on MMM????
>

Indirectly, I just got a leker back from Gary Gygax. He basically stated
that TSR got all rights to all the MMM material, which even includes his
Town Crier ar^cles, etc.

So, if that's the case, there should be no problem with permissions, and it
could be easiest just for TSR to reproduce the les as they were sent out.

As far as permissions go...just don't pester Sean right now. It be the
weeks before GenCon, I'm sure everybody at TSR is super-busy. Aver the
Con, then we nag! ;)

===========================

Short post script--those curious as to what's coming from /him/... Expect a
few short stories in WW Dark Fantasy books. There's a Lankhmar story
featuring Shelba and Neeg, and an Eternal Champion story featuring Gord and
Simon. (If there's nobody named Gord in the series, I assume its the
character we know and love).

As far as games--perhaps. It all depends on whether he gets a computer deal
signed, and thus a paper spino, but that could take weeks to years.
Ralk failed because of new management who wanted to use his name without input.

Speaking of which, his 58th birthday comes up soon--August 3rd or 4th I think...
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 10:26:40 -0400
Subject: Re: MMM

>As far as permissions go...just don't pester Sean right now. It be the
>weeks before GenCon, I'm sure everybody at TSR is super-busy.

Thank you!

>Aver the Con, then we nag! ;)

Yes, feel free. I actually have spoken to Legal and goken most of
that gured out ... now I just need to talk to the Crea^ve side
and see if they'll go for it....
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 17:31:48 -0400

Subject: TSR Boycok Count

I am akemp^ng to count the number of gamers(on this list MYTHUS gamers)
that are ac^vely boycoing TSR. Please only respond once. It would be an
added bonus if you would include why you are boycoing TSR and when you
began this prac^ce. Your input in this maker is appreciated and I thank
you in advance.

Sincerely,
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:24:24 -0700
Subject: Lich Lords

I just got this mayfair supplement I ordered called LichLords, thinking it
would have details on lich creaôn. What a waste. I is just an adventure,
with no notes on lich creaôn. I'm so biker.

I am just leing you guys know that buying this supplement is a waste of money.

Mike

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 15:51:40 -0700
Subject: Re: TSR Boycok Count
In-Reply-To: <199607302131.RAA24103@darius.cris.com>

>I am akemp^ng to count the number of gamers(on this list MYTHUS gamers)
>that are ac^vely boycoing TSR. Please only respond once. It would be an
>added bonus if you would include why you are boycoing TSR and when you
>began this prac^ce. Your input in this maker is appreciated and I thank
>you in advance.
>
>Sincerely,

I have been boycoing TSR since they led they led their lawsuit againt
Mythus/DJ. The reason I boycok their products is because TSR used the
legal system to carry out their personal akack against Gary Gygax. My
boycok has been strengthened by the fact they have just sat on Mythus
since they acquired it. I encourage my friends to also boycok TSR.

I hope that some day TSR will take some acôn that will allow me to liv
my boycok. I had collected "The Dragon" faithfully since issue #18, it
saddens me to no longer be able to read that magazine. I used to buy a lot
of modules and books, but I can no longer do so. And I wanted to go to
GenCon this year, but the boycok prevents me from doing so. Un^l TSR does
right by Gary I will not be able to liv my boycok of their products.

John Stanton
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 19:10:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Lich Lords

In a message dated 96-07-30 17:34:43 EDT, Mike wrote:

<>

I never really looked through the module itself, however, I remember having a
lot of fun playing through it. Try not to be too biker, buy products for
their intended purpose.

Lucky me, I got to play a 16th level Paladin Cavalier in that adventure.
Even with a holy avenger and a solid party we had an *interes^ng* ^me.

Later,

Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 17:00:00 PDT

Howdy, All!

While on the subject of crea^ng Liches, the Ars Magica supplement Wizard's
Grimoire has a chapter on crea^ng Liches. It is in terms of Ars Magica but
it is a long duraôn ritual that is performed over the course of years
(IIRC) and it gives each step of the ritual. You might want to try and nd
a copy of this book. It was done by White Wolf but you shouldn't hold that
against it. We can't all choose who our parents are. And while I have no
intent of introducing Liches into Ars Magica, it is s^ll interes^ng and
might prove useful to you.

Paul Wocken
scg@wsdot.wa.gov

p.s. Lucifer, what is happening with the Armor program?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 21:21:43 -0400

Michae J. Weaver wrote:
>
> I am akemp^ng to count the number of gamers(on this list MYTHUS gamers)
> that are ac^vely boycoing TSR. Please only respond once. It would be an
> added bonus if you would include why you are boycoing TSR and when you
> began this prac^ce. Your input in this maker is appreciated and I thank
> you in advance.
>
> Sincerely,
> Michael John Weaver

I basically started boycoing T$R shortly before MYTHUS came out due to the nature of the crap T$R
was
selling as gaming products. When I learned of T$R's lawsuit against EGG, I became digusted by the
akempt to
stop a business compe^tor through court acôn. Since then, I've decided that T$R can go to hell. I will
not buy any products (except used 1st ediôn stu from gamers and hobby stores) un^l such ^me as I
learn
that Gary has control of his own product to a point of his own sa^sfacôn. I am perfectly happy to play
only using the MYTHUS items I currently have. In fact, I would prefer that T$R leave the MYTHUS system
alone
rather than fuck it up.

--/Nikodemus
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 18:48:55 -0700

At 05:00 PM 7/30/96 PDT, you wrote:
>Howdy, All!
>
>While on the subject of crea^ng Liches, the Ars Magica supplement Wizard's
>Grimoire has a chapter on crea^ng Liches. It is in terms of Ars Magica but
>it is a long duraôn ritual that is performed over the course of years
>(IIRC) and it gives each step of the ritual. You might want to try and nd
>a copy of this book. It was done by White Wolf but you shouldn't hold that
>against it. We can't all choose who our parents are. And while I have no
>intent of introducing Liches into Ars Magica, it is s^ll interes^ng and
>might prove useful to you.

What supplement was this in????

Mike

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 00:10:01 -0400

>
> you in advance.
>
> Sincerely,

Well, I guess I'm a likle dierent from the few I've heard so far.
(which were very touching and noble... :) :) )

I don't buy TSR stu any more, and I try to convince others of my
posiôn, not because of anything they did to Gary (which was shiky, of
course, but not all that unusual). I just don't buy their stu because
I'm not impressed with it at all! There are far too many gamers out
there puing out stu which reaches upward, intellectually, rather
than downward (although I see the wisdom in shoo^ng for young
audiences).

As a note, I'm thinking of asking them to rename Birthright,
"ARIA-lite". :) (Of course, it looks like ARIA might actually never
see the light of day again...)

Jesse
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 08:08:01 -0500
In-Reply-To: <31FEDC99.2FD6@acsu.bualo.edu> from "Jesse G." at Jul 31,
96 00:10:01 am

> I don't buy TSR stu any more, and I try to convince others of my
> posiôn, not because of anything they did to Gary (which was shiky, of
> course, but not all that unusual). I just don't buy their stu because
> I'm not impressed with it at all! There are far too many gamers out
> there puing out stu which reaches upward, intellectually, rather
> than downward (although I see the wisdom in shoo^ng for young
> audiences).

I agree with Jesse on this. I wouldent say that I am boycoing TSR products,
rather they are not puing out anything new that intrests me. Also if I
happen to see something that has an interes^ng box/cover blurb, I remind
myself that it is a TSR product and is probably much worse than it appears.
I will be going to GenCon, though I will probably not set foot on the TSR
megalith area that seems to be occupying more and more of the exhibiôn
oor every year with less and less product.

Dan.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 09:18:37 -0400
In-Reply-To: <199607310148.SAA40164@rho.ben2.ucla.edu>

On Tue, 30 Jul 1996, Chris Calvert wrote:

> >against it. We can't all choose who our parents are. And while I have no
> >intent of introducing Liches into Ars Magica, it is s^ll interes^ng and
> >might prove useful to you.
>
> What supplement was this in????

The Wizard's Grimoire, a much-maligned supplement among the majority of
us Ars Magica fans. But it does have some neat stu in it. IIRC, the
lich secôn is only a couple of pages long, but there are spells, stu
on longevity poôns, lab work, etc.

Ciao,
Patrick
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 12:09:24 -0400

>you in advance.

I have not bought a TSR product since I became aware of thier legal acôn
against Gary Gygax and GDW over the rights to Mythus.

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:24:43 +0000

>
> you in advance.
>
> Sincerely,

It's not so much a boycok in my case, Michael, I just think they aim their
products at kids. I am 39, the average age of my players is 35. TSR just
don't produce anything to interest us.
-
Mark Goode

Leicester
England.

m.goode@dial.pipex.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 13:54:00 -0500

X-To: "Michae J. Weaver" <aikido@CRIS.COM>

>you in advance.

>Sincerely,

I am also an avid boycoker of TSR product do to their singular lack of
appeal to anyone over the age of 15. I know they are capable of
releasing good material but they seem to target younger gamers in order
to increase monitary gain. I don't see why they can't release a system
targeted toward more experienced (and..let's face it...probably more
intelligent) gamers. Un^l they decide to give a likle back to the
people who supported them in the early years by realeasing a system with
a likle more maturity I'll con^nue my boycok.

Wayne Westphalen
WWestphalen@Radisson.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 11:53:47 -0700
In-Reply-To: <199607302131.RAA24103@darius.cris.com>

On Tue, 30 Jul 1996, Michae J. Weaver wrote:

> you in advance.

I'm not ac^vely boycoing TSR - though that is essenâlly what I am
doing. I stopped purchasing TSR products before I became aware of the
lawsuit against EGG simply because I thought their products were turning
into crap. Too commercialized, mindless/thoughtless new products, a
seemingly lower target age, regurgitated artwork, and the new players (in
general) that seem to be akracted to TSR.

Aver discovering and enjoying DJ and nally learning some of the details
of the lawsuit - I loudly tell anyone & everyone what I think of TSR.
I've convinced more than a few to my way of thinking. ;-) So, yes, I do
boycok the EGS.

Je

-Je "Caesar" Sharpe

#include "std_disclaimer.h" Linux, GNU, Debian and M$ Free...
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 16:57:21 -0400
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.960731114355.94A-100000@uis>

Well, i guess I should stand up to be counted amongst the de-facto
boycokers of T$R...I haven't been consciously avoiding them, it's just
that I havent been at all interested in buying the garbage that they
print. Perhaps it's because I'm not 12 years old anymore. I will agree
that they seem to have scaled their targe^ng to a class of buyers well
below my level of intellect.

I don't know much about the lawsuit, other than that Mythus stopped being
sold (thankfully I got all the GDW books before that happened). Perhaps
if someone who knew the details would e-mail them to me (to save on the
list trac) I would join the boycok in earnest, as I really do enjoy
the game, and would like to see more books published like those I have,
not watered down to a sixth grade audience. (a dumb sixth grade audience
at that).

Thanks,
Paul L. Nelsen

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:51:05 -0400

I only buy the rule books that appeal to me and that I might be able to use
in other games...I don't and will probably never buy any
modules/worlds/seings or anything that denes the gaming world because I
always play in custom worlds...hope this helps your count...

Bill
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 00:39:04 -0500
Subject: GenCon

When and where is the next GenCon? I though it was only once a year and
that it was like
6 months away...please tell me I'm wrong, I really want to go.

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 14:07:35 +0200
From: Joerg Neulist <neulist@STUDENT.UNI-KL.DE>
Subject: Adventure Idea?!
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960801053904.0068d78c@health1.uwsp.edu>

Hello!
First, I'd like to shout a loud HELLO to everyone bothering to read this
message (because I am new to this list).
I had something like an adventure idea (it's more like a single situaôn
that's fascina^ng me) but I seem to be stuck:
I've some^mes been thinking through what-ifs - what if our characters
were playing a roleplaying game?
There's been a lot of talk lately about "reality loss", and I thought,
what if an RPG would eect not a reality loss, but a reality GAIN?

I've come up with the following scenario:
The local ruler, let's call him King Bored, is, in fact, bored and ^red
of his jester. So some day he calls some diviners and mages of other
professions and tells them to nd a game, probably hidden in the folds of
^me, that would suit his major intellect and nest taste. Scurrying to
obey the command of their ruler (you've got only one head, aver all) they
come up with an unique and interes^ng thing:
A mind game, where each player leads a character in an imagina^ve world
shall please King Bored.

He really loves the game and soon plays a worthy Paladin of level 20 (he
is a king, rules are not made for, but by him)
Of course, it's more and more dicult to challenge him, so his gm's
devise tougher and tougher monsters (powergaming par excellence) and at
some ^me, every monster slain by the Paladin becomes a nuisance in the
real world, where no warriors of suitable powers are available.
Time for the characters to enter...
They have to play the game and nd the soluôn in the game.

So far so good. But what's the underlying scheme? maybe there is a plan
behind, but what is it. I simply lack some background. If any of you has
some comments, ideas, suggesôns or even ames, send them!

I hope, I could give some of you an idea for another adventure.
Thanks for reading,

Joerg

"Every prayer we prayed at night has somehow lost its meaning"
Savatage: "Dead Winter Dead"
Joerg Neulist <neulist@student.uni-kl.de>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 10:47:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Adventure Idea?!

<big snip>

it's more and more dicult to challenge him, so his gm's
>devise tougher and tougher monsters (powergaming par excellence) and at
>some ^me, every monster slain by the Paladin becomes a nuisance in the
>real world, where no warriors of suitable powers are available.
>Time for the characters to enter...
>They have to play the game and nd the soluôn in the game.

Sounds like Jumanji (sp) scenerio would be a blast! It's a great movie
starring Robin Williams. It might producethe avor of excitement you'r
looking for.

>So far so good. But what's the underlying scheme? maybe there is a plan
>behind, but what is it. I simply lack some background. If any of you has
>some comments, ideas, suggesôns or even ames, send them!

Perhaps you could put him in an alterna^ve universe where he is no longer
the ruler. This is a Guardian of the Flames Scenerio wriken by Rosenburg.
(sp again) If not for you campaign, read the rst series, its hot!

>Thanks for reading,

>
>Joerg
>
>"Every prayer we prayed at night has somehow lost its meaning"
> Savatage: "Dead Winter Dead"
> Joerg Neulist <neulist@student.uni-kl.de>

Welcome
AJ=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 03:44:33 -0400

>
> you in advance.
>
> Sincerely,

I have boycoked their products since 1986, when the EGG shove-out and the
so-called 2nd ediôn appeared. My reasons are personal rst and
professional second. I do dislike what they did to Gary, not only because it
was roken but because that really put a crimp in my plans to write game
material for a living un^l 1992, and then TSR squashed me again (indirectly,
of course). Excpet for Talislanta I've never been inspired to want to
publish work for any other system besides Mythus.

Now, I've never met Lorraine Williams but I did meet Flint Dille a couple of
^mes during the short life of TSR West up in Hollywood, and if they are
similar people then I know that Mythus won't have a chance in Gehenna un^l
Ms. Williams ^res of her investment and sells it to Hasbro or somebody, at
which point there might be the hope of resurrec^ng it.

Yet I have paged through TSR products on occasion in game stores, and I have
yet to see anything interes^ng come from them, especially in the last ve
years. It would take a preky damn impressive product for me to buy a TSR
product now, but from what I've seen lately I won't hold my breath wai^ng.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 11:56:01 +0200

Subject: Re: Adventure Idea?!
In-Reply-To: <v01530501ae2621549c54@[206.68.74.104]>

On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, John Schmidt wrote:

> Sounds like Jumanji (sp) scenerio would be a blast! It's a great movie
> starring Robin Williams. It might producethe avor of excitement you'r
> looking for.
I've not seen the movie, but I thought it was about him becoming caught
inside the game. S^ll sounds similar, however. Maybe that was one of my
subconscious inuences...

> Perhaps you could put him in an alterna^ve universe where he is no longer
> the ruler. This is a Guardian of the Flames Scenerio wriken by Rosenburg.
> (sp again) If not for you campaign, read the rst series, its hot!
You mean, everything seems to be the same, but the people's posiôns are
reversed?
That's not what I thought of - I thought, the imaginary creatures from the
game now threaten the world - and cannot (or only with greatest
diculty) be slain, so the clue to the problem has to be found by
playing the game.
Yet this is a good idea - The clue could only be found when playing a
par^cular adventure, where the king has to play some humble farmer...
Talking your own king into this could be fun for the gm ;-)

Goodbye for now,

Joerg

"Every prayer we prayed at night has somehow lost its meaning"
Savatage: "Dead Winter Dead"
Joerg Neulist <neulist@student.uni-kl.de>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 07:11:25 -0500
Subject: GenCon

>When and where is the next GenCon? I though it was only once a year and
>that it was like
>6 months away...please tell me I'm wrong, I really want to go.

GenCon is August 8-11 in Milwaukee Wisconsin, USA. I hope you live nearby
because there is virtually no way you are geing a hotel room this close
to GenCon. Sorry.

Dan.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 09:27:43 -0400
Subject: Re: GenCon

Gen Con 1996 is August 8-11, in Milwaukee, WI. Gen Con 1997
will be in August next year (about the same ^me, I don't
have the date handy).

Gen Con is generally in summer, as there isn't really any
other season in Wisconsin that is tolerable to human life forms.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 11:54:39 -0400

>Now, I've never met Lorraine Williams but I did meet Flint Dille a couple of
>^mes during the short life of TSR West up in Hollywood, and if they are
>similar people then I know that Mythus won't have a chance in Gehenna un^l
>Ms. Williams ^res of her investment and sells it to Hasbro or somebody, at
>which point there might be the hope of resurrec^ng it.

This I nd inters^ng. I remember reading a few things in an older "Books
in Print" volume or "Forthcoming books" or one of those tome, that Gary and
Flint were or did work on a group of books called "Sagurd the Ice Barbarian"
or something similar. Does anybody know if this line exists or was ever
published. If so, I was wondering how plausible this project could be if
Flint had the same personality traits as Lorraine.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 21:44:04 -0700
From: "Kevin S." <genx@TIDEPOOL.COM>
Subject: Saying hi

I am just saying hi. It's been over a year since I was last on this
group, have I missed much?

Where is everyone, I remember geing between 1 or 2 dozen emails from
this group, I've only goken 2 so far.

Any more new on TSR's rule over DJ?
Is Gygax going to make any more games?
Are we ever going to pay o the naônal debt? ;)

See ya,
Kevin
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 00:21:55 +0100
Subject: Re: Saying hi

>I am just saying hi. It's been over a year since I was last on this
>group, have I missed much?
>
Its good to have you back. Check out Mike Philip's web page. You can nd
all the cool developments there or on one of the links. There are also
plans for a web driven semi-suppliment headed by Micheal Weaver.

>Where is everyone, I remember geing between 1 or 2 dozen emails from
>this group, I've only goken 2 so far.
>
The fall semester is about to begin. It will pick up when that's in full
swing.

>Any more new on TSR's rule over DJ?

Yes. The answer is "No. It is not going to touched." But they are
considering making available the copies of MMM that have been locked away
in the vault for so many years.

>Is Gygax going to make any more games?

"Maybe. John Troy keeps in touch."

>Are we ever going to pay o the naônal debt? ;)

We'll see. Between the Republican congress and Richard Lamm, someone is
bound to get the picture.
>
>See ya,
>Kevin

Tom

Food for thought:

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 22:24:10 -0700
Subject: TSR?
In-Reply-To: <v01520d00ae283d06f3@[206.109.96.142]>

Doesn't TSR have an obligaôn to release all legal informaôn to the
public. Well I guess that would fall to the courts, but what I am
saying is that I have never heard an ocial response from TSR, save
for a likle blurb they said once. I would like to know exactly what
they were sueing over. I know it was about Gygax not being able to
write games for a certain amount of years, or that he was wri^ng DJ
during his employment by TSR.
Doesn anyone know where any ocal records can be found, possible
online....?

Kevin
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 23:42:48 -0700
Subject: Re: TSR? + Liches + FP

At 10:24 PM 8/2/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Doesn't TSR have an obligaôn to release all legal informaôn to the
>public. Well I guess that would fall to the courts, but what I am
>saying is that I have never heard an ocial response from TSR, save
>for a likle blurb they said once. I would like to know exactly what
>they were sueing over. I know it was about Gygax not being able to
>write games for a certain amount of years, or that he was wri^ng DJ
>during his employment by TSR.
>Doesn anyone know where any ocal records can be found, possible
>online....?
>

Ahhh, the crusade against the Evil Emp....I mean..Gaming System.

While I agree with your sen^ments and laude your intenôns, I do not
believe T$R has to disclose anything it does not want to, unless
forced...(the Crusading Mythusers vanquish the trooping hordes of EGS

lahyors and Good triumphs...Alright!!!, WHOA!!!!, back to reality). There
is no ocial line except that T$R was "trying to regain its property",
wait specically"Mythus is a deriva^ve work of AD&D". Yes, I agree,
adding insult to injury.

Sean and I had an interes^ng discussion about this awhile ago, and what it
boils down to is Lorraine doesn't like Gary, and in this country, everyone
has a right to sue. The charges were fabricated from whole cloth. If you
really want I can post the conversaôn, but in the interest of promo^ng a
kinder, gentler state of symbiosis, I am trying to forget my hatred for T$R.

Let me know if you really want to see it.

PS..Anything new on Liches anybody, or is everyone sick to death of that
subject??

This is what I've been thinking...it is clear that if OPs/HPs/EPs are of
sucient Power they can become Demiurge/Demigod etc. Case in point is
Luohi of Pohjola(I know I misspelled something and I dont really care). I
am also planning on integra^ng Iuz from Greyhawk, under a dierent name
and such, but iden^cal principles. Point is it is possible to Achieve an
Undying Status or Unmortal status, (gee, who could I use as an example for
that) if of sucient Power. This implies that there are those of lesser
Power who seek such an existence, but are unable to achieve it, for whatever
reason, and may turn to Lichdom instead. Lichdom should not be so cryp^c
as to be completely unknown, and in the upper echelons of Wizardry,
especially Black Wizardry, should be accessable. I have been to busy
developing other aspects of my campaign to get on lich creaôn, but I have
all of the stu right here, so I will probably(hopefully), get it done
soon. In the meanwhile, has anyone else come up with anything new???

PPS I have also been thinking of using prac^ônership status to limit
complexity(ie. Grade) of spell availible. I have been thinking of limi^ng
PPs to grade V, and making advancement twice as costly. Whaddya think??

PPPS-I claim all copyrights to this email, especially what I just said.

Mike ("Symbiosis, while supplying one with certain needed things, has the
cost of a lack of freedom, an akachment and dependence on the host. Thus
all considering this means of sustenance are admonished to consider it at
length before deciding upon it.")

heres the sig

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 05:04:58 -0400
Subject: Re: TSR?

At 10:24 PM 8/2/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Doesn't TSR have an obligaôn to release all legal informaôn to the
>public. Well I guess that would fall to the courts, but what I am
>saying is that I have never heard an ocial response from TSR, save
>for a likle blurb they said once. I would like to know exactly what
>they were sueing over. I know it was about Gygax not being able to
>write games for a certain amount of years, or that he was wri^ng DJ
>during his employment by TSR.
>Doesn anyone know where any ocal records can be found, possible
>online....?
>
>Kevin

Kevin,

While TSR has no obligaôn to disclose all legal informaôn to the public
the actual court documents are a maker of public record.(so copies are
available upon request) The copyright suit was led in a federal district
court in Peroia IL. The main complaint brought by TSR was that it violated
their copyright protecôn on AD&D because they claimed that Dangerous
Journeys Mythus was a deriva^ve work of AD&D. TSR in my opinion would have
lost this suit. I also think that TSR realized they were going to lose and
so paid a substanâl amount to acquire the rights to the system. GDW at the
^me was badly in need of the money. I don't think TSR or GDW or anyone else
believed that any other allegaôns(unfair compe^ôn) would have held up
in court either. It is a common lawsuit ta^c to sue someone for everything
you can think of in order to achieve your goals. This certainly cost
GDW(already hur^ng) a great deal of money in legal fees.

Might I make the humble suggesôn to anyone that has the power to do so
that the Jus^ce Department should at least take a surface look at TSR's
suit in this case and see if it doesn't clearly violate an^-compe^^ve laws.

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 02:24:23 -0700
Subject: Re: TSR?
In-Reply-To: <199608030904.FAA06693@darius.cris.com>

>
> While TSR has no obligaôn to disclose all legal informaôn to the public
> the actual court documents are a maker of public record.(so copies are
> available upon request) The copyright suit was led in a federal district
> court in Peroia IL. The main complaint brought by TSR was that it violated
> their copyright protecôn on AD&D because they claimed that Dangerous
> Journeys Mythus was a deriva^ve work of AD&D. TSR in my opinion would have
> lost this suit. I also think that TSR realized they were going to lose and
> so paid a substanâl amount to acquire the rights to the system. GDW at the
> ^me was badly in need of the money. I don't think TSR or GDW or anyone else
> believed that any other allegaôns(unfair compe^ôn) would have held up
> in court either. It is a common lawsuit ta^c to sue someone for everything
> you can think of in order to achieve your goals. This certainly cost
> GDW(already hur^ng) a great deal of money in legal fees.
>
> Might I make the humble suggesôn to anyone that has the power to do so
> that the Jus^ce Department should at least take a surface look at TSR's
> suit in this case and see if it doesn't clearly violate an^-compe^^ve laws.
>
I don't want to seem rude, since this is my rst ^me on the list in
a year, but I think that the mailing list should help in any ways that
they can, to get DJ back!
All this list can do now is say, what if.... Cause there is no "real"
way to go forward with a "dead" system. I don't like to think of DJ as
dead, but that is what it is.
I think you are right about the Jus^ce Dept. of Dept of Commerce or
what ever, should look into TSR's monopolizaôn of the gaming
commercialism. TSR does walk around as though they are high and
mighty, and that nothing can befall them... Well I know I don't play
ANY of their games. Not ever D&D, cause it itself is dead! Think about
it. TSR only publishes games that are living for a few years, then
kills it by ring the designer, and doing it over for themselves.
This theory works for D&D anyhow, not really sure what they do, but
they did do it to the worlds greatest RPG. It could have been
something, but now it runs o of the fumes from its greater days.

Long live DJ, and its supreme god, Gygax!

This was only an opinion, and not meant as a legal tac^c against TSR.
All comments are subjec^ve, and not necessarily those of the writer.

Thanks much,
Kevin
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 06:53:53 -0400
Subject: Re: TSR?

(MJW)
Some of this post has been edited.

>> >I don't want to seem rude, since this is my rst ^me on the list in
>a year, but I think that the mailing list should help in any ways that
>they can, to get DJ back!

(MJW)
While I don't feel that this is rude, I do think it a bit unrealis^c. The
list has encouraged that TSR release the already nished products Mythic
Masters Magazine(for those of us that don't have all six issues) and
UNHALLOWED the completely nished super natural horror genre module for
Dangerous Journeys. However, IMHO TSR(read Lorraine Williams by me) bought
DANGEROUS JOURNEYS for the sole purpose of killing it as a personal vendeka
against Gary Gygax. So I don't think TSR will ever publish the line(and many
people think they would mess it up anyway) or ever sell it to anyone who
would publish it.

>All this list can do now is say, what if.... Cause there is no "real"
>way to go forward with a "dead" system.

(MJW)
I disagree I know people(including myself un^l Mythus was released) that
have played AD&D 1st ed. for years. Mythus material will con^nue to be
produced by many people on this list including myself. All material is of
course opônal but it will be fresh material for people to use(if they so
choose) in their games. All my work is released into public domain. My
current project is a Mythus collecôn that will contain the following:

1.Rules correcôns
2.Rules clearicaôns
3.New Vocaôns
4.New Creatures
5.Conversion rules(from other specic games i.e. Cyborg Commando)
6.Opônal rules
7.Magick(new cas^ng etc.)

I don't like to think of DJ as
>dead, but that is what it is.

(MJW)
Actually Dangerous Journeys would be beker described as an ocially
unsupported game system. This is because TSR chooses not to support it.
However, to describe a game as dead that over 200 people on this list alone
play would not be accurate.

>I think you are right about the Jus^ce Dept. of Dept of Commerce or
>what ever, should look into TSR's monopolizaôn of the gaming

>commercialism. TSR does walk around as though they are high and
>mighty, and that nothing can befall them...
>
>
>This was only an opinion, and not meant as a legal tac^c against TSR.
>All comments are subjec^ve, and not necessarily those of the writer.
>
>Thanks much,
>Kevin
>
>Good Gaming!
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 07:35:16 EDT
From: "Prince O. Darkness" <csc3rwm@ATLAS.VCU.EDU>
Subject: Re: TSR?
In-Reply-To: <199608031053.GAA19397@darius.cris.com>; from "Michae J. Weaver"
at Aug 3, 96 6:53 am

> >> >I don't want to seem rude, since this is my rst ^me on the list in
> >a year, but I think that the mailing list should help in any ways that
> >they can, to get DJ back!
>
> (MJW)
> While I don't feel that this is rude, I do think it a bit unrealis^c. The
> list has encouraged that TSR release the already nished products Mythic
> Masters Magazine(for those of us that don't have all six issues) and
> UNHALLOWED the completely nished super natural horror genre module for
> Dangerous Journeys. However, IMHO TSR(read Lorraine Williams by me) bought
> DANGEROUS JOURNEYS for the sole purpose of killing it as a personal vendeka
> against Gary Gygax. So I don't think TSR will ever publish the line(and many
> people think they would mess it up anyway) or ever sell it to anyone who
> would publish it.

Eh...I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that it is something
the 'list' wanted. My experience is that the list is divided amongst
many dierent axises as to what should be done with Mythus. Some,
such as myself, want TSR to publish it, and see what you're doing as
swinging the execuôner's axe over the system. Some, such as
yourself, are sa^sed with what a small group of inexperienced
authors can provide (and, yet again, I include myself in that list of
inexperienced authors...Abyss wasn't anything to put onto paper and
sell), and don't believe that we can hope for anything more than TSR
puing those unpublished works they aquired on the internet. Some
are so irraônal in their hatred that they somehow believe that their
own game will be destroyed by TSR publishing anything about the game
(if I recall, you're not included in these extremists). Some even
want to go so far as to directly challenge TSR by crea^ng deriva^ve

work and publishing it via private snail mail (which is blatantly
illegal...and I'm not certain if this is you or not).
Well, it's obvious which point of view I take, for those who
might not have seen it (where were you?), but I gured I'd make it
clear that I'm not the only one on the list that would prefer to see
DJ make print again.

> Actually Dangerous Journeys would be beker described as an ocially
> unsupported game system. This is because TSR chooses not to support it.
> However, to describe a game as dead that over 200 people on this list alone
> play would not be accurate.

What has to happen to a game for you to consider it to be
dead? Of the millions of people with internet and listserv access,
only 200 are interested enough in Mythus to become involved in a
listserv, and only a small percentage of those do anything but read.
I am honestly curious...what cons^tutes a 'dead' game to you?

Lucifer >:}
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 07:16:44 EDT
Subject: Re: TSR?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.960803021554.21930A-100000@mail>; from "Kevin S."
at Aug 3, 96 2:24 am

> > Might I make the humble suggesôn to anyone that has the power to do so
> > that the Jus^ce Department should at least take a surface look at TSR's
> > suit in this case and see if it doesn't clearly violate an^-compe^^ve laws.
>
> I don't want to seem rude, since this is my rst ^me on the list in
> a year, but I think that the mailing list should help in any ways that
> they can, to get DJ back!

Agreed. :)

> All this list can do now is say, what if.... Cause there is no "real"
> way to go forward with a "dead" system. I don't like to think of DJ as
> dead, but that is what it is.
> I think you are right about the Jus^ce Dept. of Dept of Commerce or
> what ever, should look into TSR's monopolizaôn of the gaming
> commercialism. TSR does walk around as though they are high and
> mighty, and that nothing can befall them... Well I know I don't play
> ANY of their games. Not ever D&D, cause it itself is dead! Think about
> it. TSR only publishes games that are living for a few years, then
> kills it by ring the designer, and doing it over for themselves.
> This theory works for D&D anyhow, not really sure what they do, but
> they did do it to the worlds greatest RPG. It could have been
> something, but now it runs o of the fumes from its greater days.

Eh, I hate to argue, but here's two points that are
problema^c, at least to me.
1) The role playing gaming industry simply isn't large enough
to cons^tute an an^-trust concern, which is what you've suggested
above. At the very, very most, they would be considered part of the
'game' industry, including playing card makers, makers of board games,
etc. If looked at from this perspec^ve, TSR is a small sh in a big
pond, and most other gaming companies are ameobae (excep^ng Wizards
of the Coast, who aren't an rpg company anymore anyway).
2) If you're talking about design aws, 2nd ediôn didn't
make any of the design aws there worse. If anything, it plugged a
few of them, improved some, etc. I think, aver examining Mythus and
it's _vast_ improvement over even old AD&D, we can see quickly that
even EGG would probably agree that AD&D is, technically, one of
the more awed systems about. Of course, considering that D&D was
the _rst_ such a game, this isn't par^cularly surprising.
Things've evolved. Now, I do enjoy a good AD&D game periodically, but
not because I think the rules, well, rule, but because it ows very,
very easily because I know the system extremely well, beker than I
know Mythus, and it is much more simplis^c (note: not because it is
designed beker!).

> Long live DJ, and its supreme god, Gygax!

tee hee

> This was only an opinion, and not meant as a legal tac^c against TSR.
> All comments are subjec^ve, and not necessarily those of the writer.

tee tee hee hee

Lucifer >:}

-csc3rwm@cabell.vcu.edu |We all had delusions in our heads.
noc^fer@aol.com |We all had our minds made up for us.
Mythus Maniac, Greyhawk Guru|We all had to believe in something,
Marvel PBEM GM |So we did
| --Forgiven, Alanis
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 11:09:21 -0400
From: Jesse T Gris <jgris@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: TSR?
In-Reply-To: <9608031135.AA89476@atlas.vcu.edu>

Lucifer
When you're talking 200 people on the net, you goka gure that some of
us are JM's running games with players...I have about 12 fans of the game
just in my groups... :)

(It's fun to be dierent!) :)

Jesse
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 15:58:48 -0400

>This is what I've been thinking...it is clear that if OPs/HPs/EPs are of
>sucient Power they can become Demiurge/Demigod etc. Case in point is
>Luohi of Pohjola(I know I misspelled something and I dont really care). I
>am also planning on integra^ng Iuz from Greyhawk, under a dierent name
>and such, but iden^cal principles.

Just on a side note--Yarth and a world called AErth were oven referenced in
Gygax's Gord books. (The world name for Mythus used to be Yarth, but got
changed per Steve Jackson's request). I will note that in Sea of Death,
Louhi was referenced as the alternate name Iqqwilv takes on one of these
worlds. Furthermore, if this world is the same as the one menôned, then
Gord, Gellor and Leda all exist, Gellor being a Demiurge of Yarth based on
Hy Brazeal.

Now, when I've asked about this Gary has ocially thrown away his, instead
saying they occupy another alternate. His explainaôn was that he didn't
want any non-Earth-based mythical pantheons being on AErth.

Of course, if you are going to adapt Iuz, perhaps you could use this
explainaôn for it. (If Iqqwilv had an alternate existance, then perhaps
to could her son.) If you're going to use IUZ, I'd suggest he be a demigod
that occupies Phaeree's Goblinrealm. Since he got along so well with the
Goblins, Orcs, etc, I think you could make him the Goblin King or something
similar. I would think that the leaders of some of the races of Phaeree
would approach this level of power.

Personally, un^l I see what Gord's up to elsewhere, I consider him to be in
the background of AErth--Lord of Phaeree Cats (at least those of western
sort), while Leda is a Lady of Shadow-based creatures on a sphere of shadow
(as well as renegade Drow), both slightly linked to Avilionia (which is why
all Five Kings were present at their wedding) and Gellor renamed Gelthoth,
as the ruler of Hy Braseal. All are of Demigod potency.

Vuron survived too. But the details of that will remain hidden for now.

Point is it is possible to Achieve an
>Undying Status or Unmortal status, (gee, who could I use as an example for
>that) if of sucient Power. This implies that there are those of lesser
>Power who seek such an existence, but are unable to achieve it, for whatever
>reason, and may turn to Lichdom instead.

Technically, I would count Lichdom as "unliving", since most undead usually
have no true minds (Cunning). But, yes, it is a status. I think there have
to be some disadvantages. I would rule that it is a more /uncomfortable/
form of undeath. While there doesn't seem to be a need for vampiric
ac^vity, a lich likely has no feeling of physical pleasure or pain, and
doesn't have a lot of control over appearance. People truly "want it all",
thus, Lichdom is a poor subs^tute for Unmortal status, and even pales
compared to Supernatural Vampirism (which allows for more benets and more
pleasure).
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 13:15:39 -0700
Subject: Re: TSR?

Some
>are so irraônal in their hatred that they somehow believe that their
>own game will be destroyed by TSR publishing anything about the game
>(if I recall, you're not included in these extremists).

I think you misunderstand on this point, but who cares.

Some even
>want to go so far as to directly challenge TSR by crea^ng deriva^ve
>work and publishing it via private snail mail (which is blatantly
>illegal...and I'm not certain if this is you or not).

Ooooh, a deriva^ve work of a system that hasn't been developed for three
years, and never developed by the present owner, who bought it just to kill
it in the rst place. Does anyone give a damn?!? I think not.

I think thumbing one's nose at T$R is a beker way of describing it. I, at
least, do not have the capacity to "challenge" T$R, which is why I make a
point of sending material I develop that I really care about only to people
I feel I can trust with it. I made the ar^cer availible before T$R got
here, but I can promise you that I would not have released it. Guess why I
haven't released the Druid, and am not going to. Truth be told though, I
honestly doubt that anyone at T$R gives a sh** about what I do, which is
exactly the way I like it, but I am unwilling to take that chance when it
come to things I care about(like my creaôns).

> Well, it's obvious which point of view I take, for those who
>might not have seen it (where were you?), but I gured I'd make it
>clear that I'm not the only one on the list that would prefer to see
>DJ make print again.

I think all of us would like to see DJ in print again, or we wouldn't be
here. But few of us want to see it in print from EGS.

> What has to happen to a game for you to consider it to be
>dead? Of the millions of people with internet and listserv access,
>only 200 are interested enough in Mythus to become involved in a
>listserv, and only a small percentage of those do anything but read.
>I am honestly curious...what cons^tutes a 'dead' game to you?
>
> Lucifer >:}

I really do not understand where you get your aitudes. You sound
as though you want it to be considered dead.

As to what I consider a dead game, I would say any system not being played
or developed. I ac^vely create material for Mythus frequently, and have
been doing so since it was rst released. And I have a campaign in
progress. If you consider a dead game anything not being published ac^vely,
well Mythus is s^ll not a dead game, as many here publish things frequently
by releasing it to the list. A game can be quite good just on what the JM
produces(gasp). When I was younger, I remember reading something to the
eect that good DMs do not run published modules, instead they use them for
ideas and borrow traps, etc. I certainly heavily modify all modules that I
use(from many dierent systems).

If, for some reason, you dislike Gygax and like T$R, well, its your life,
but I think you will nd few here with similar sen^ments. I consider your
seeming tacit approval of T$Rs acôn contemp^ble and disgus^ng. While I
do not think everyone will ever agree on anything, what T$R did is wrong by
the standards of everyone I know.

I also nd your akempts to belikle the eorts of individuals on this
list oensive, and even strange, given the amount of eort you obviously
put into crea^ng The Orc. While you may consider individual eorts
substandard, unpublishable, unprofessional, whatever, all campaigns require
such contribuôns on the part of the GM to make it funcôn. If you don't
think what we create here is worthy of respect, I hope at least you will
have the taste to keep your opinions to yourself. My campaign isn't just
OK, its great, growing all the ^me. In the last month I have doubled the
size of my house mileux, developed several new Unseelie creatures, started

on rules for lich creaôn, and adapted L1(Bone Hill, Lakoa) and
T1(Village of Hommlet, Gygax) to Mythus, and included personal alteraôns.
I have also created a detailed HP Vocaôn, the Druid. I am addiônally
considering developing alternate pracônership rules.

The quality of a game is chiey a property of the quality of the
individuals involved.

This is not intended as a ame, but you can take it any way you want, since
I think I made it clear that I don't like you anyway.

The Symbiote

PS. I think Venom is the name of the symbio^c suit in Spiderman. I'm
thinking of taking that name. Whaddya think??

now

Venom

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 17:36:01 -0400
Subject: Re: TSR?

In a message dated 96-08-03 07:40:02 EDT, Lucifer writes:

>dead? Of the millions of people with internet and listserv access,
>

Out of the 12 people who play in the two campaigns I play in, only 2 are
actually on the Mythus listserv (and one of those may have just cancelled)
despite all of them having internet acess. Most of us are perfectly happy
with our own "brand" of Mythus and let the two GM's scan the list for
per^nent info. We're very busy crea^ng worlds, rules, systems, etc. to
work with the Mythus system, but, for the most part, too busy with playing
Mythus (and our pesky real-^me jobs) to devote any ^me to the list.

I'm not saying that there are millions of Mythus players out there, but don't
confuse interest (and par^cipaôn) in the list as an accurate reecôn of
the people who are actually working with the system.

Meredith
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 02:14:46 -0400
Subject: Re: TSR?

(edited)

> Well, it's obvious which point of view I take, for those who
>might not have seen it (where were you?), but I gured I'd make it
>clear that I'm not the only one on the list that would prefer to see
>DJ make print again.

(MJW)
I would love to see the Dangerous Journeys line in print again by a company
that would allow the original authors to direct the overall system in the
manner it was originally envisioned.

>> Actually Dangerous Journeys would be beker described as an ocially
>> unsupported game system. This is because TSR chooses not to support it.
>> However, to describe a game as dead that over 200 people on this list alone
>> play would not be accurate.
>
>dead?

(MJW)
People have to stop playing it and publicly available material has to stop
being produced for it. In this regard AD&D 1st ed. is very much alive and
"ALL MY CHILDREN" the RPG(also published by TSR) is very dead. I also think
there was a "DALLAS" RPG published that is probably now a dead game.

Of the millions of people with internet and listserv access,

(MJW)
Having access does not mean that they are on the list. Many players not the
least of which is Alan Kellog(the former ocial DJ rules lawyer) do not
have computers but con^nue to both play and promote Mythus.


see above

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 16:29:53 +0300
From: Kauâinen Ani <anolka@UTU.FI>
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960803195848.00766eb4@pop.âc.net> from "John R. Troy"
at Aug 3, 96 03:58:48 pm

> Just on a side note--Yarth and a world called AErth were oven referenced in
> Gygax's Gord books. (The world name for Mythus used to be Yarth, but got
> changed per Steve Jackson's request). I will note that in Sea of Death,
> Louhi was referenced as the alternate name Iqqwilv takes on one of these

Can one of villains of Finnish Epoch trademarked??? Sounds preky
weird to me... At least I think publishers of Kalevala(or translaôns)
have trademark of its characters...
(The name has even correct spelling in it... )

> form of undeath. While there doesn't seem to be a need for vampiric
> ac^vity, a lich likely has no feeling of physical pleasure or pain, and
> doesn't have a lot of control over appearance. People truly "want it all",
> thus, Lichdom is a poor subs^tute for Unmortal status, and even pales
> compared to Supernatural Vampirism (which allows for more benets and more
> pleasure).
Sounds quite good. I think lichdom should give some BIG
counter-Quirk nobody told about. For example allergy towards anything
ALIVE!!! Or irraônal fear of living beings, vapirism of Hekau or added
Heka cost of spells... Or chao^c and erra^c urge to kill everyone you
love.

The player archieving lichdom should never know anything about
this. And aver all, living for ever will be quite boring aver century or
two... (You make lich VERY dicult to kill... Even if he wants to
die...)
This leads to one interes^ng and dierent adventure ideas. I
always wonder why those vampires and liches had to be evil! How about
players wandering into old, ruined keep only to found out it's ruled by
lich, who has became insane aver living over millenia. This lich has only
one wish: To nally DIE! Aver players has nally found their way to the
lich, it insists players to kill it, which they're unable to do...

My .02 FIMs, Kautsu

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 11:01:14 -0400

At 04:29 PM 8/5/96 +0300, you wrote:
>> Just on a side note--Yarth and a world called AErth were oven referenced in
>> Gygax's Gord books. (The world name for Mythus used to be Yarth, but got
>> changed per Steve Jackson's request). I will note that in Sea of Death,
>> Louhi was referenced as the alternate name Iqqwilv takes on one of these
>
> Can one of villains of Finnish Epoch trademarked??? Sounds preky
>weird to me... At least I think publishers of Kalevala(or translaôns)
>have trademark of its characters...
>(The name has even correct spelling in it... )

I never tried to hint that it was a Trademark by any means. I was simply
making an observaôn. I don't think Gary would ever try to trademark the
name of a mythical god.

> Sounds quite good. I think lichdom should give some BIG
>counter-Quirk nobody told about. For example allergy towards anything
>ALIVE!!! Or irraônal fear of living beings, vapirism of Hekau or added
>Heka cost of spells... Or chao^c and erra^c urge to kill everyone you
>love.

It's quite likely that Lichdom doesn't last forever, maybe a millenium at
best. Since they aren't Unmortal, they won't last forever. Vampirism of
Hekau is a power I've thought for the Lich--seems appropriate.

> This leads to one interes^ng and dierent adventure ideas. I
>always wonder why those vampires and liches had to be evil! How about
>players wandering into old, ruined keep only to found out it's ruled by
>lich, who has became insane aver living over millenia. This lich has only
>one wish: To nally DIE! Aver players has nally found their way to the
>lich, it insists players to kill it, which they're unable to do...
>
A similar idea (regarding the Insanity) has already been used by another
game system. Ed Greenwood, who may be considered the grandaddy of Lich
development (hey, Elmister needs /something/ to ght!), created an
adventure featuring a senile and insane Lich who believed he was s^ll
alive, haun^ng his old school of magick. The adventure originally appeared
in a Dragon Magazine, prior to its use in a forgoken realms product (this
was before TSR bought it). He's also created the Archlich, good mages that
undergo Lichdom for a task of weal.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 10:39:49 -0700

> Sounds quite good. I think lichdom should give some BIG
>counter-Quirk nobody told about. For example allergy towards anything
>ALIVE!!! Or irraônal fear of living beings, vapirism of Hekau or added
>Heka cost of spells... Or chao^c and erra^c urge to kill everyone you
>love.

I am planning to require the sacrice of larvae to perpetuate the lich's
existence, this requiring trac with devils and Night Hags, this leading
to "evilness" or evil tendencies. The would be lich has already evinced a
desire for con^nued life above all else, so I am preky much ruling out
Sunlight and Moonlight as possible ethoi, although I do not think a lich
must necessarily be evil,(ie a follower of Gloomy Darkness), although it
would require evil tendencies necessary to associate with netherrealm beings
and reach sucient power in Black Wizardry to cast the required spells.
Thus, at best, an "intenônal" lich could be a follower of balance with
evil tendencies.

Greenwood also menôns "unaware" liches who believe that they are s^ll
living, although they have far shorter periods of lichdom, and completely
disintegrate upon achieving whatever goal thier existence was temporary
extended for.

Venom

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 00:28:31 -0600
Subject: TSR and its products

Gree^ngs Mythus followers!

First o let me state that I no longer purchase TSR products although I
wouldn't call it a "boycok".

But I do use products which TSR holds copyrights to. This includes Mythus,
currently, and Marvel SuperHeroes (MSH), some ^me ago. The only things
that the two games have in common, I think, are (a) they're fun and (b)
they're exible.

Although my gaming has grown away from MSH, I want to incorporate some of
its capabiliês into Mythus. I think that Dangerous Journeys, as a
mul^-genre system, is perfectly ked to do this. Hence, some years ago
(when I had more spare ^me), I began draving up an expansion on the
Advanced Mythus rules that I called "Maximus". My intent was to build o
of Mythus rules to include rules for situaôns and beings that are common
to higher-powered campaigns. I just nished the rst drav of these
Maximus supplements, and I've posted them on the Web so as to not clog up
the MYTHUS-L list with my massive les. I can email this informaôn
privately upon request.

My Mythus Notes website is very Spartan It lacks the glitz of Mike
Phillips' or Makhew Pearson's sites. And you might not even nd it
useful. But here's a brief list of contents:

* Core Rules
Extended Akributes Tables (what it means to have a 75 PMPow, etc)
Eec^ve vs. Actual Modiers
CHARACTER GENERATION
* Game Mechanics
Extending the Tables
Extending Combat Rules
Grappling/Escaping
Charging
Dodging/Evading
Slams
Powers
Healing
Material Strength
* Sample Maximus HPs
* Marvel/Mythus Conversion Rules

My page is at: hkp://www.mcn.net/~free/DN/Mythus/Mythus.html

This info might be of use to a variety of MYTHUS-L users. The Akribute
Tables let you see how your HPs (and OPs) stack up against popular TV and
Movier Sci-Fi characters. The Mythus/Marvel conversion rules might be
useful. Some Combat rules supplements might be useful (ever wanted to
actually kill an opponent with a head lock?). And, lastly, the extensive
HP Generaôn rules let you create everything from algae to Zeus.

I post this announcement in hopes to do two things: (1) I would love
feedback as I develop these ideas; and (2) I want MYTHUS-L users to be
aware of more Mythus ideas in development and available for their viewing.
For being an "Unmortal" game system, Mythus has a surprising presence on
the Web. Some of the people pos^ng Mythus info on the Web don't adver^se
it here (although I wish they would), so there it's easy to think there
isn't much out there.

I would also like to lend my (sparse) spare ^me to developing more Mythus
stu that listmembers actually want -- an akempt to repay those ac^ve on
MYTHUS-L for all the energy and informaôn they have provided me. Those
interested, please contact me.

And thank you, to those who have put in hard work crea^ng valuable gems
like the AErth Magick Item Rumors, the FileMaker HP Generators, the
Vocaôns, rules claricaôns, monsters, cas^ngs, campaign notes, and
most importantly (because it's how I learned about MYTHUS-L) Dangerous
Ideas!

Good Gaming! (and apologies for going on so long)

-Doug Noonan

hkp://www.mcn.net/~free/DN/Mythus/Mythus.html
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 23:43:24 -0700
Subject: Re: TSR and its products
In-Reply-To: <v01510107ae2c75eb01a7@[205.163.40.49]>

Does anyone know a list of Mythus Web Site Address?

Also, I've seen the mythus character maker for dos. Has anyone ever
created a more advanced Windows applicaôn? Or is there a source code
for the old C hp maker? Maybe I could get it coded in C++. Then add
some graphics or something (public domain images of course), and alot
more exability.
One last thing. I no^ced in the back of the original books, there was
an ad for a CD-Rom game of Dangerous Journeys. About 8 months ago I
called the 1800 number provided, they had no idea what it was. Does
anyone have a copy or even set their eyes upon it?

Kevin
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 00:51:24 -0700

Never mind a Windows Mythus HP generator, I found one at
hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/programs/ Many thanks Mike for
your website.

Kevin
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 00:58:00 -0700

One last thing ;)
Who is the coder of the Windows Mythus HP generator?

Another grand thanks!

I was crea^ng a Mythus Magick database, using at rst GWBasic, then
moved it to QBasic. Then I was going to move it into Visual Basic for
DOS, but then decided it would be another pain in the a$$ to make it
visual. Besides the fact that I wasn't even 1% near compleôn. If
Mythus ever does "come back to life", i.e. Is redistributer, I may get
o my a$$ and complete the damn thing.

If anyone is interested in my original speghei(sp?) source code in
QBasic, and wants to nish, or help in upda^ng it, please let me
know. Or if you can convert from Qbasic to VBasic 3.0, which I may
soon acquire, let me know again.

Oh one last thing. The source code is on my XT, and therefore in the
garage. So if you want it, you beker be dedicated, cause it will take
me an hour just to nd it ;)

Later,
Kevin
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 07:59:46 +0000

On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, Kevin S. wrote:

> Does anyone know a list of Mythus Web Site Address?

hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/sites.html

I try to keep it as current as I can.

(not to toot my own site's horn again ;-) )

> Also, I've seen the mythus character maker for dos. Has anyone ever
> created a more advanced Windows applicaôn? Or is there a source code
> for the old C hp maker? Maybe I could get it coded in C++. Then add
> some graphics or something (public domain images of course), and alot
> more exability.

If you want it available to the masses, send it my way :-)

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 09:22:48 -0400

--Cyberdog-AltBoundary-0000E967
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

KevinI'd be interested in seeing your source code. I don't have QBasic,
VBasic, or even a Wintel machine, but I do have a Basic compiler for
the Mac that's preky advanced. So if you get a chance, send it over
this way, and I'll let the list know if I have any luck with it.

Charles Hagenbuch
hagendaz@prolog.net

--------------------------------------------------This message was created and sent using the Cyberdog Mail System
--------------------------------------------------

--Cyberdog-AltBoundary-0000E967
Content-Type: mul^part/mixed; boundary="Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-0000E967"

--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-0000E967
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1

<SMALLER><X-FONTSIZE><PARAM>10</PARAM><FONTFAMILY><PARAM>Geneva</PARAM>=
Kevin
I'd be interested in seeing your source code. I don't have QBasic,
VBasic, or even a Wintel machine, but I do have a Basic compiler for
the Mac that's preky advanced. So if you get a chance, send it over
this way, and I'll let the list know if I have any luck with it.

Charles Hagenbuch

hagendaz@prolog.net

--------------------------------------------------
This message was created and sent using the Cyberdog Mail System

--------------------------------------------------
</FONTFAMILY></X-FONTSIZE></SMALLER>
--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-0000E967-
--Cyberdog-AltBoundary-0000E967-=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 10:48:12 -0400

> One last thing. I no^ced in the back of the original books, there
> was an ad for a CD-Rom game of Dangerous Journeys. About 8
> months ago I called the 1800 number provided, they had no idea
> what it was. Does anyone have a copy or even set their eyes upon > it?

This was one of many ancillary items that were cancelled or put on hold,
awai^ng the outcome of the lawsuit.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 13:55:28 -0400

At 10:48 AM 8/6/96 -0400, Loren Wiseman wrote:
>> One last thing. I no^ced in the back of the original books, there
>> was an ad for a CD-Rom game of Dangerous Journeys. About 8
>> months ago I called the 1800 number provided, they had no idea
>> what it was. Does anyone have a copy or even set their eyes upon > it?
>
>This was one of many ancillary items that were cancelled or put on hold,
>awai^ng the outcome of the lawsuit.

Actually, as Gary put it in MMM #4, it was something even HE was wondering
about. NEC and JVC were partners in the deal that formed DJ...in fact they
were involved before GDW. (Remember, Gary's aiming all his deals at
mul^-faceted generes). It was they (JVC) who demanded that EGG develop a
Fantasy game.

DSI of Vancover developed the game. However, they were rst "late", and
secondly they had been aquired by EA Canada. The game was ready in
1993--but it then turned out to be too large for Nintendo, and would have to
be priced at $100! JVC dropped out. NEC's US Division couldn't con^nue
with the Turbograx version since the above programmers quit and they
couldn't nd another developer to do it at a cost-eec^ve price.

The IBM version was also scapped. EA asked Origin system to look at the
game, since Origin had apparently had legal problems with TSR themselves,
and they "weren't enthused" about it. The fact that SSI is owned by TSR (at
the ^me having the license) also may have had inuence in this regard.
Aver that, it couldn't be sold to another because of the lawsuit.

=======================

While I'm at it, Hunters of Ralk is also scapped. Cyberdreams got a new
president aver the project had to go back to the drawing board due to bad
art. Well, the new president wanted to use Gary's name without condiôn
while removing Gary from the approval process. Gary told them to stu it.

Dealing with this sector is like dealing with Hollywood, I take it.
Hopefully, Gary will nd new funding soon, and we'll get a paper game out
of that somewhere...

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 02:09:42 -0700
From: Giuliano Babini <gbabini@LINKNET.IT>
Subject: Novice theory on Cas^ngs Heka cost. Help wanted! :-)

Hi to everyone,

i'm in need of an opinion:

- with the help of a good guy (Mak Sullivan), I've reached a decision about heka consumpôn for
cas^ngs:

An HP must use the Heka (STEEP+akribute) from the same K/S area of the Cas^ng to be ac^vated,
at least for the ACE (base cost).
If he hasn't got the necessary heka points, he may only rely upon the "universal" pool of the
Vocaônal Trait. (e.g. a PP-Diviner with a STEEP+SPcap=65 can and must use 10 hekas from
Spiritual Trait to cast a IV-grade cas^ng, which has a base cost of 75. He can never take
those ten points from another Area).

Does anyone think this way it could work? Any further suggesôn ?

Are there any follower of the one-and-only big mul^-purpose heka-pool theory who might
enlight me ?

Can you forgive my english?

Thanks for any reply.

Giuliano Babini, Ravenna, Italy.

gbabini@linknet.it
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 15:09:14 +0000
Comments: Authen^cated sender is <wildcat@prysm.net>

> My page is at: hkp://www.mcn.net/~free/DN/Mythus/Mythus.html
>
I saw this, as many of you did. I was looking trough somne stuf and
was wondering if TSR is/or will be allowing netbooks for Mythus.
Seems to me to be a perfet way to con^nue building this game.

Jonathan M. Thompson, SCA: Jonathan MacAlpine
wildcat@prysm.net

Keeper of the Bakletech Mailing List - email btech@prysm.net to subsribe
Resident member of the SCA, SCV and Stareet.
"I say my good man, what year is it?" - The Doctor [William Harnell]
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 09:23:57 -0500
Subject: Re: New Heka System

> An HP must use the Heka (STEEP+akribute) from the same K/S area of
> the Cas^ng to be ac^vated,
> at least for the ACE (base cost).
> If he hasn't got the necessary heka points, he may only rely upon
> the "universal" pool of the
> Vocaônal Trait. (e.g. a PP-Diviner with a STEEP+SPcap=65 can and i
> must use 10 hekas from
> Spiritual Trait to cast a IV-grade cas^ng, which has a base cost
> of 75. He can never take
> those ten points from another Area).
>
> Does anyone think this way it could work? Any further suggesôn ?

The problem that I see with this is that it drama^cally increases bookkeeping.
Now, not only do I need to keep track of Trait Heka and all of my cas^ngs
but I also need to keep track of how much Heka I have for each of my
cas^ng areas.

Except for being almost completely unplayable I like the idea in theory.
It would make a great background rules system for a computer game which
can easily maintain all of that paperwork automa^cally for you, but as
a pencil and paper RPG it doesnt look like it would work.

> Can you forgive my english?

Your English is much beker than my Italian.

Dan.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 18:29:00 -0500
Subject: Hello

I was just wondering if any of these messages are geing to the list.
Could someone please e-mail me at WWestphalen@Radisson.com and let me
know what the heck's going on.

Wayne
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:10:55 EDT
Subject: TSR and DJ (was Re: TSR?)

What follows is a rather long exposiôn on my stance
concerning the possibility of TSR publishing DJ, as well as some

explanaôn on some ambiguiês I presented. Enjoy.

Subject: Re: TSR?

>> Some
>>are so irraônal in their hatred that they somehow believe that their
>>own game will be destroyed by TSR publishing anything about the game
>>(if I recall, you're not included in these extremists).
>
>I think you misunderstand on this point, but who cares.

Well, I for one. If I've missed the argument, please inform
me.

>>Some even
>>want to go so far as to directly challenge TSR by crea^ng deriva^ve
>>work and publishing it via private snail mail (which is blatantly
>>illegal...and I'm not certain if this is you or not).
>
>Ooooh, a deriva^ve work of a system that hasn't been developed for three
>years, and never developed by the present owner, who bought it just to kill
>it in the rst place. Does anyone give a damn?!? I think not.

Well, I know I would. Now, it's unlikely that Dave, Gary, or
any of the other authors of the various Mythus supplements care much
any more, but that's mostly because they no longer own the rights. It
would seem you're not interested in legality or ethical publishing
prac^ces, so I won't try to explain why a system that hasn't been
developed for any amount of ^me is s^ll someone else's property.

>I think thumbing one's nose at T$R is a beker way of describing it.

Very mature of you. ;)

>> Well, it's obvious which point of view I take, for those who
>>might not have seen it (where were you?), but I gured I'd make it
>>clear that I'm not the only one on the list that would prefer to see
>>DJ make print again.
>
>I think all of us would like to see DJ in print again, or we wouldn't be
>here. But few of us want to see it in print from EGS.

And I think that's a bit irraônal, and I'm not certain how
few is few.

>> What has to happen to a game for you to consider it to be
>>dead? Of the millions of people with internet and listserv access,
>>only 200 are interested enough in Mythus to become involved in a
>>listserv, and only a small percentage of those do anything but read.

>>I am honestly curious...what cons^tutes a 'dead' game to you?
>
> I really do not understand where you get your aitudes. You sound
>as though you want it to be considered dead.

Eh? Well, I do consider a game that hasn't received
professional support in three years to be a dead system. I'm just
somewhat mysêd as to why you s^ll believe it's a living system.

>As to what I consider a dead game, I would say any system not being played
>or developed. I ac^vely create material for Mythus frequently, and have
>been doing so since it was rst released. And I have a campaign in
>progress. If you consider a dead game anything not being published ac^vely,
>well Mythus is s^ll not a dead game, as many here publish things frequently
>by releasing it to the list.

Professionally published is my criteria, and dare I say a
criteria that is a bit easier to deal with than 'any system not being
played or developed'. By your deniôn, we really couldn't ever
call any game 'dead', because someone, somewhere, might pick up
something like 'Days of our Lives RPG' and play it, and most would
never know. Guess we'll have to chalk this one up to a dierence in
terminology.

> A game can be quite good just on what the JM
>produces(gasp). When I was younger, I remember reading something to the
>eect that good DMs do not run published modules, instead they use them for
>ideas and borrow traps, etc. I certainly heavily modify all modules that I
>use(from many dierent systems).

I never claimed that an individual game couldn't be good on an
individual level (or even, theore^cally, on a larger scale). What I
am sugges^ng is that, as a whole, the game has stagnated. Without a
constant infusion of new ideas and new concepts a JM has a tendency to
stagnate as well. Now, one can always cull these ideas from other
game systems, but wouldn't all of us like to see what can be done with
the system by professional game designers?

>If, for some reason, you dislike Gygax and like T$R, well, its your life,
>but I think you will nd few here with similar sen^ments. I consider your
>seeming tacit approval of T$Rs acôn contemp^ble and disgus^ng. While I
>do not think everyone will ever agree on anything, what T$R did is wrong by
>the standards of everyone I know.

Well, I never claimed to dislike Gygax...this isn't a black
and white situaôn. No, I don't approve of what TSR did, but a
willingness to let bygones be bygones and hope for a beker future, to
me, is a beker opôn than bikerness. I do like Gygax, both
personally and as an author (I spoke to him briey about working on
the AEgypân Pantheology via telephone). I've got plenty of reason

to hate what TSR did (screwed my rst, best chance to get into the
gaming industry), but if it means my favorite system can see the light
of day again, I'm more than willing to support DJ under TSR.

>I also nd your akempts to belikle the eorts of individuals on this
>list oensive, and even strange, given the amount of eort you obviously
>put into crea^ng The Orc. While you may consider individual eorts
>substandard, unpublishable, unprofessional, whatever, all campaigns require
>such contribuôns on the part of the GM to make it funcôn. If you don't
>think what we create here is worthy of respect, I hope at least you will
>have the taste to keep your opinions to yourself. My campaign isn't just
>OK, its great, growing all the ^me. In the last month I have doubled the
>size of my house mileux, developed several new Unseelie creatures, started
>on rules for lich creaôn, and adapted L1(Bone Hill, Lakoa) and
>T1(Village of Hommlet, Gygax) to Mythus, and included personal alteraôns.
>I have also created a detailed HP Vocaôn, the Druid. I am addiônally
>considering developing alternate pracônership rules.

Sorry it oends you, and I don't consider it tasteless to
voice my opinion of the material that has hit the list and the
websites, especially because I have been a contributor to the material
that exists (and I always include my own material in the list of
unprofessional work). Many of the people on this list aren't bad
authors, some are downright good, but none I've seen are great. Now,
the reasons for this are many, many fold, and I've discussed the
reasons for this before. Here are a few:

It takes more than GMing for a group of friends to become a
good game designer. Experience gaming with strangers is a necessity,
and playtes^ng anything you create on strangers is a necessity. Many
of us probably have the former, few of us have the ^me for the
laker. It also takes experience working in the professional
workplace (not literally...), which few of us have.

Few of us have professional editors. Now, Gygax and Newton's
editor wasn't all that great...the grammar and spelling mistakes in DJ
are fairly rampant, but the presence of an editor is what separates
something that is merely adequate from something that is good.

Time. Most of the stu that hits the list is something
cobbled together in a few hours or days, and few of us have the ^me
to devote the necessary resources and energy to making any single
post a truly professional piece of work.

>The quality of a game is chiey a property of the quality of the
>individuals involved.

Guess we should throw all those review ar^cles and opinions
on specic games out the window, eh? A game or supplement can be
judged, in my opinion, based on its inherent quality, playability, and

cohesiveness. Yeah, with the right group of players, any game can be
fun, but when you are examining a game or supplement, isn't it
possible to examine it outside of it's usefulness to any single
individual group of players?

>This is not intended as a ame, but you can take it any way you want, since
>I think I made it clear that I don't like you anyway.

Well I don't like you neither. Nya-nyaaa! *snicker*

Subject: Re: TSR?

>> Well, it's obvious which point of view I take, for those who
>>might not have seen it (where were you?), but I gured I'd make it
>>clear that I'm not the only one on the list that would prefer to see
>>DJ make print again.
>
>(MJW)
>I would love to see the Dangerous Journeys line in print again by a company
>that would allow the original authors to direct the overall system in the
>manner it was originally envisioned.

I'd love that too, but is this a necessity to you? Would you
accept Mythus with Newton, but not Gygax? Would you accept it with
neither? That, in my opinion, wouldn't be fair to the authors
involved.

>> Of the millions of people with internet and listserv access,
>
>(MJW)
>Having access does not mean that they are on the list. Many players not the
>least of which is Alan Kellog(the former ocial DJ rules lawyer) do not
>have computers but con^nue to both play and promote Mythus.

>>only 200 are interested enough in Mythus to become involved in a
>>listserv, and only a small percentage of those do anything but read.
>>I am honestly curious...what cons^tutes a 'dead' game to you?

I want to clear a couple of things up. I didn't mean to
suggest that I thought that there were only 200 players of Mythus, or
that Mythus wasn't played outside of the sphere of those with internet
access or who had friends with internet access. What I am saying is
that there are only 200, maybe 250 if we suggest that there are a few
who aren't subbed who draw from the websites, that have access to any
new material created for the game. I don't think it's fair for us to
make demands and thwart DJ's chances of ever geing professionally
published by sugges^ng that the game has everything it needs and TSR
would just screw it up. I'm also trying to suggest that the support
of the game, from the list at large, isn't that phenominal. Only a
handful of posters have the ^me, energy, and/or bravery to put their
stu on the list. I understand the reasons why, but I want more than
the internet can realis^cally provide. I'd like to see professional
work published and promoted to the gaming masses, not just the elite
few who have internet service and happened to catch DJ before it was
squished. I, for one, think it's too great of a game to be hoarded
jealously like a leprechaun's pot of gold.

Lucifer >:}

-csc3rwm@cabell.vcu.edu |We all had delusions in our heads.
noc^fer@aol.com |We all had our minds made up for us.
Mythus Maniac, Greyhawk Guru|We all had to believe in something,
Marvel PBEM GM |So we did
| --Forgiven, Alanis
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 10:04:40 -0700
Subject: TSR and DJ, also, some monster stu

There is only one thing in this missive really worth addressing, this

Well, I never claimed to dislike Gygax...this isn't a black
>and white situaôn.

this may be your viewpoint, that it isn't black and white, but I see it VERY
dierently, (i.e. it is black and white).
You are alone in *ac^vely* promo^ng the publishing of Mythus by T$R.

My point in discussing my campaign is to make abundantly clear that I *do
not need* T$R, because I do not need published material by them for Mythus.
There is an extensive library of material by Gygax and MANY other notables
during the early days which can be eshed out and adapted, which is
something I do currently. I also have been forced to explore dierent
systems for some material, and I have found some truly excepônal stu,
which I plan to integrate into my campaign. If you have to have published
material for Mythus, by T$R, for your game, thats your game, but I don't.

As for the rest, it is preky much a reiteraôn of things said before.

On a dierent note, did Gygax/Newton ever give an example of
noncorporeal/PPM undead. I am trying to adapt wraiths and spectres to
Mythus and am having a hard ^me of it.(I am looking for genral
informaôn). Also, if anyone has adapted Gnoles, please let me know. I'll
swap my Bugbear for your Gnole.
Also, does anyone have info about Jotens. Obviously they include the Fire
and Frost Giants, but I would like a likle more info. Or how about
direc^ng me to a good reference/resource.

PS. Since we are on the topic of the undead(and since Mythus is Unmortal), I
have been thinking about classes of Undead.

Vampires(3 kinds of increasing power)
Ghouls/Ghulaz/Gholles
Liches
Noncorporeal(bean sidhe(sith)-banshee, ghosts)
and Wraiths/Spectres
(Barrow) Wights

kinda,
animated skeletons/zombies

did I miss anything??

Venom

Isn't Gencon this weekend?

a droning lls the air......
MMM, MMM, MMM, MMM, MMM, MMM, MMM, MMM, MMM, MMM...........................;)

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 14:18:49 -0400
Subject: Re: TSR and DJ, also, some monster stu

>On a dierent note, did Gygax/Newton ever give an example of
>noncorporeal/PPM undead.

Ghost in Necropolis, Haunt in Mythus Magick.

>I am trying to adapt wraiths and spectres to
>Mythus and am having a hard ^me of it.

Look under one of the Grade X Necromancer cas^ngs. There was a cas^ng
that showed the akack of the Spectre.

>(I am looking for genral
>informaôn). Also, if anyone has adapted Gnoles, please let me know.
>I'll swap my Bugbear for your Gnole.

Don't confuse the Gnoll of AD&D with the Gnole of Mythus (an evil Dwarf).

If you truly want to adapt the Gnoll, I would look at the Ghulaz and Gholle
very closely. Note the similarity in name of the laker, and the look
described in Necropolis. I have a feeling that, since that the demon
Yeenoghu's sphere was that of both Ghouls and Gnolles, I have a feeling the
Ghulaz (which appeard in City of Hawks rst) and/or Gholle were an original
akempt to merge the two creatures. (I'm just guessing here). Perhaps if
you remove the tarpings that are undead (powers and weaknesses) and add
Intellegence and Weapons, you'd have your Gnoll.

>Also, does anyone have info about Jotens. Obviously they include the Fire
>and Frost Giants, but I would like a likle more info. Or how about
>direc^ng me to a good reference/resource.

No--re/frost Giants are something else. Jotens are likely Hill Giants.

>Noncorporeal(bean sidhe(sith)-banshee, ghosts)

Banshee's are Shee, and corporeal creatures, not undead.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 21:07:37 -0700
Subject: Mythus Besâry Wanted.

I've heard of the second Besâry by Gygax released as public domain.
Is it true ? I found it on the Jag's Mythus Page:
<hkp://www.crater.com/jag/mythus.html> but I've not been able to
download it.

Does someone know where I can nd it ?

Thankz a lot.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 12:06:39 -0700

>If you truly want to adapt the Gnoll, I would look at the Ghulaz and Gholle
>very closely. Note the similarity in name of the laker, and the look
>described in Necropolis. I have a feeling that, since that the demon
>Yeenoghu's sphere was that of both Ghouls and Gnolles, I have a feeling the
>Ghulaz (which appeard in City of Hawks rst) and/or Gholle were an original
>akempt to merge the two creatures. (I'm just guessing here). Perhaps if
>you remove the tarpings that are undead (powers and weaknesses) and add
>Intellegence and Weapons, you'd have your Gnoll.

Sounds good! I like it. BTW, what should the relaônship be between
Yeenoghu and Gholl and Ghul(a triad of demon lords?? Rivals/Antagonists??-I
like this one).

Whats City of Hawks?

>
>>Also, does anyone have info about Jotens. Obviously they include the Fire
>>and Frost Giants, but I would like a likle more info. Or how about
>>direc^ng me to a good reference/resource.
>
>No--re/frost Giants are something else. Jotens are likely Hill Giants.
>
What are they then?

Does anyone have any info on this?

>>Noncorporeal(bean sidhe(sith)-banshee, ghosts)
>
>Banshee's are Shee, and corporeal creatures, not undead.

Yes, but I am using the banshee of AD&D, which is clearly noncorporeal. I
really like the spirit of an evil female elf/groaning spirit idea. Or was
just the name ripped of and misapplied?? If so, that'll be easy to x.

Thanks

Venom

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 16:58:43 -0400


>>Perhaps if
>>you remove the tarpings that are undead (powers and weaknesses) and add
>>Intellegence and Weapons, you'd have your Gnoll.
>
>Sounds good! I like it. BTW, what should the relaônship be between
>Yeenoghu and Gholl and Ghul(a triad of demon lords?? Rivals/Antagonists??-I
>like this one).

Depends. Are you using Yeenoghu? If so, are you using Aerth? Ghul anf
Gholl are made-up demons as well. Perhaps you should replace them with Y,
or give Y a consort to make up for that.

>Whats City of Hawks?

A Novel in the Gord The Rouge series, the Gygax novels that kept telling the
story of Gord aver the rst two Greyhawk Adventures novels.

You should really read the series if you can get it--you get a lot of
insights into Gary's creaôns, some of which can be seen in Mythus. (BUC
system rst appeared there, as well as the nine dimensions, in Saga of Old
City). Demiurge as well--oh, Celesâl and Empyreal spheres...neat stu.

>>No--re/frost Giants are something else. Jotens are likely Hill Giants.
>>
>What are they then?
>
>Does anyone have any info on this?

There may not be a translaôn. Don't assume that Gary adapted everything
from the old system to the new. Frost and Fire giants are likely creatures
who roam the Nordic Pantheon. Or perhaps something else, elemental creatures.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 01:25:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Mythus Besâry Wanted.

Sort of. What was released was the skeleton of the Phaeree besâry. It is
not complete, but is a good star^ng point for anyone who has the energy to
develop. I can send it to you in just about any format you want.

As ^me permits, I've been taking the other bits we have on Phaeree crikers
(i.e. from Necropolis) and integra^ng them into the skeleton, but with the
RNC in town I am barely nding ^me to sleep, let alone work on Mythus.
Eventually I'll post it somewhere, but I can mail you what I have so far if
you are interested.

DOn
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 15:44:53 -0400

<<
On a dierent note, did Gygax/Newton ever give an example of
noncorporeal/PPM undead. >>

Seems to me that Necropolis had a ghost or undead spirit in i

Later
Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 05:03:31 -0400
Subject: Houston Texas Gaming Convenôn

NANCON 88 - XVIII
August 30,31, September 1 & 2
(Labor Day Weekend)

Ramada Hotel Northwest
12801 Northwest Freeway (Hwy.290)
Houston Texas 77040
(713) 462-9977

I am planning on akending this convenôn and making net generated Mythus
material available to anyone interested. For instance I was thinking about
making copies of Dangerous Ideas available(via disk). Does anyone(Jesse)
have any objecôns to this? What do you think should be included(or not
included) if I hand out free disk with net generated Mythus material.

Your comments and suggesôns as are always wanted and appreciated.

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 09:06:14 -0400

Subject: Okay...

Okay...

Sean, now that GenCon has sekled and the various and sundry personages
(should that be maleviolent or benign?) at TSR, Inc. have had ^me to
recover from the event of thousands of gamers converging on one spot in the
mul^verse...

...let's nd out if the completed MMM material is a go or not!

(I don't really have my hopes up on TSR crea^ve, here--but there could be a
glimmer of hope, since TSR has published Ivid via e-format).

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 09:06:12 -0400
Subject: Web Site

Hi all,

Due to constraints on my ^me, I can no longer do the Mythus Web Page site
that Mak Pearson runs. Too busy now with other things (and I never did get
any contribuôns E-Mailed to me FWIW).

So--contact Mak if you want to take up that task.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 16:55:51 -0700
Subject: Wraiths and Elementals

Quesôn one: Am I the only one who thinks that Grade four is much too low
to summon elementals??
I am thinking of making it a grade ve cas^ng(sheesh-41 STEEP and already
summoning Elementals)

Wraiths

This is the kind of Wraith I am considering. Take the ghost in Necro,
remove its "Slow draining" stu and its Aging eect/PTrait Vampirism, and
instead give it a Rahotep-like ability to Vampirize trait and with it, STEEP.

Now that is really vicious, but can be somewhat devicied(hee, like my
English?) by modera^ng the quan^ês drained. I was also thinking of
increasing the PTrait of the thing to maybe 25.
I've been thinking of making it able to go from NPM to PPM at will, but I
think that may be just too much. I've also been thinking of making him PPM
constantly, and destroyed by sunlight.

Ideas?? Feedback??

PS, WHy is this list so damn dead??

Am I the only one who plays. I am not saying post just for the hell of it,
but I've got lots of quesôns and ideas, and it seems a likle strange to
me that I am the only(OK not THE only, but one of few) one who writes alot.
Given the amount of stu we have to develop, it seems like there would be more.

More on my eshing out of my campaign. I will be running my players
through the Galley Slaves adventure in Mythus 1 next weekend(FINALLY
star^ng, thank God, geez it took long enough), and then through L1 and
L2(Lendore) and from there to Temple of Elemental Evil. What I am planning
on doing then is Slavelords, sooo... I am planning on associa^ng the
Starre Guild with the slavers, I am not quite sure how yet, but presently
the most likely is making the Starre Guild the Legi^mate and
semilegi^mate front, based in Arles, and the Slavers the slaving and pirate
branch of the organizaôn, based in a Pomarj like region of my world.
Anyway, I will let you know how it all goes.

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 12:37:40 -0700

Subject: WHat the heck?

Am I s^ll connected to this list, or is nobody wri^ng anything? I
don't think I've goken anything for several days now.

Venom

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 16:05:58 -0400
Subject: Re: WHat the heck?

At 12:37 PM 8/18/96 -0700, you wrote:

>Am I s^ll connected to this list, or is nobody wri^ng anything? I
>don't think I've goken anything for several days now.
>
>Venom

No, you're not the only one connected. PLease remember, it is the week
aver Gencon for those that went, and it is Summer. I think people want to
spend a likle more ^me outdoors before they either head back for school or
whatever. Vacaôns abound.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 16:09:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Wraiths and Elementals

At 04:55 PM 8/17/96 -0700, you wrote:

>Quesôn one: Am I the only one who thinks that Grade four is much too

low

>to summon elementals??

>I am thinking of making it a grade ve cas^ng(sheesh-41 STEEP and

already

>summoning Elementals)

Considering that your dealing with a college that /teaches/

<bold>elemental art, I would think Elemental summoning would be a key

point. </bold>Since the average STEEP for a Wizard would be 30-45, I

would denately think that the experienced would be able to summon

elementals for the various mundane purposes they serve.

==================

John R. Troy (JRT)

johntroy@âc.net

==================
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 14:20:14 -0600

We're hearing you loud and clear. It's just a bit quiet.

Maybe more list members will post ideas about their campaigns. I found the
info that John Troy (I think) posted about Aerth current events to be very
useful.

Things will pick up. Ask some of those quesôns you have -- MYTHUS-L
never seems to be short of answers. :)

-Doug
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 18:39:54 -0400
Subject: AErth Bits...

==========

AERTH NEWS

==========

The southern desert kindgoms to the south and east of AEgypt's Nubian

Oversight have been harried by a mysterious being. The being has

akacked caravans, travellers, pilgrims, even outpost and border towns.

Survivors' reports and inves^gator's notes seem to vary, but it seems to

be some sort of powerful and evil elemental force, but whether it is some

form of elemental, a rouge GEnie, or some other being from another

plane/sphere is undetermined. It does seem to be causing general

destrucôn, but whether there is a deeper agenda is unclear.

============

The Country of Portugal is having a problem in its major ciês with a

new outlawed drug. The drug, called ildalhal, seems to be created with a

mix of exo^c chemicals (found either in "middle aerth" or phaeree), and

enhanced with alchemy. Ildalhal is a drug that releases and intensies

passions while reducing judgement. The drug is highly addic^ve, and the

underground organizaôns have been ac^vely pushing it, unlike most

drugs which are handled via dens of inquity. It has also been known to

have certain nega^ve side eects, such as violent sprees (murder and

rape).

The drug seems to be aimed at the lower classes, as well as the foppish

and bored rich. It is either purchased for very likle money, or for

barter. In fact, many slaves have been found addicted and stealing or

otherwise doing tasks outside their nature. It is believed that whatever

organizaôn is supplying this drug has an agenda other than prot.

Meanwhile, Portugal is having problems. More Guard, Watch, and Miliâ

are being placed on duty, and they are puing pressure on all

underground ac^viês, such are thieves guilds and harlots. These

organizaôns, most not involved with the ac^vity, are pushing back, the

peasant class feels harried, and the situaôn is geing serious.

============

==================

John R. Troy (JRT)

johntroy@âc.net

==================
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 21:49:44 +0200
From: Avi Esterson <avie@GLX.CHIEF.CO.IL>
Subject: Reloading missle-weapons

Hello again!
I was re-reading the Combat rules, and encountered a serious problem
(I think...).
On page 210 of Book 1 (Combat: Speed Factors), one of the items is
Reloading.
"Reloading allows personas to nd and nock an arrow in a strung bow,
load a bolt in a readied crossbow, or nd and place a sling bullet in a
throng or sta sling, provided that the missile is readily at hand. If
they must fumble around for their ammuniôn ([snip]), penalize them one
or more CTs while they do this." The SF is 9.
"Note that with the excepôn of `moving', `turning', `diving' and
`drawing weapon', only ONE of the acôns listed on the SF table can be
performed in a CT."
Now, am I to conclude that reloading takes a CT?? (nocking an arrow
can sure take _ME_ 3 seconds, but I'm no Archer [steep 5(-: maybe]) How
about the ROFs in the Missile Weapon table and the MISSILE ROF MODIFIERS
on page 164, which usually add-up to more then once per every other CT? If
the Reloading _should_ have been included in that second quote (i.e., it
can be done more then once per CT), why isn't the SF of 9 simply included
in the SF for the weapon?
WHAT DOES "RELOADING" DO???

Akiva Esterson
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 05:26:47 -0400

>Am I s^ll connected to this list, or is nobody wri^ng anything? I
>don't think I've goken anything for several days now.

I have been too busy with the RNC to do anything else besides read the mail.
More in a few days.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 05:43:57 -0400

>Maybe more list members will post ideas about their campaigns.

Well, just as an indicator of where I stand, I must say that it amazes me how
I started my group through Necropolis in the rst part of 1995 and they
s^ll haven't completed it yet, although the bulk of it is done. In fact,
they've been forced to take a likle side trip whose details I won't publish
since at least one of them subscribes to MYTHUS-L...

However, I will say to those players and JMs who have yet to journey through
it that it is quite a piece of work, and well worth playing if the HPs are up
to it.

DOn
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 05:47:58 -0400
Subject: P.S.

I am happy to see that the list is up to 240 members, from the one-^me low
of 95 why back when. SO much for a dead system.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 04:12:00 -0600
From: "Dennis-c Thomas (Dennis-c Thomas)" <dmthomas@NOVELL.COM>
Subject: HI

** Reply Requested When Convenient **

Hello fellow Mythus players new to the list just sayin HI
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:30:17 +0200
Subject: Mythus Magick

I was wondering if anyone could help me get my own copy of Mythus
Magick (book #2). If you can nd a Mail Order store who has the book
that would be ne. If the store does not take mail orders that's ne
too; I'll pay you the book's price+shipping (to either CT or Mass.).
If there's any crazy person out there willing to part with a copy,
I'll be more than happy to provide it with a new home, including adopôn
fees :-).

Please reply privetly.

Thanks!
Akiva Esterson
ISRAEL
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 05:34:10 -0600
Subject: Mythus Magick -Reply


I Have a copy that I am willing to part with send me a total of
10 dollars. I will send the book to you ASAP. My address

Dennis Thomas
325 East 1000 North #4
Pleasant Grove, Utah 84062

My wife won't let me play that much anymore and the book
is kinda beat on thats why so cheap.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:29:24 +0200

Reply-To: neulist@student.uni-kl.de
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F6rg?= Neulist <neulist@STUDENT.UNI-KL.DE>
Subject: Re: Reloading missle-weapons

Hello!

> "Reloading allows personas to nd and nock an arrow in a strung bo=
w,
> load a bolt in a readied crossbow, or nd and place a sling bullet in =
a
> throng or sta sling, provided that the missile is readily at hand. I=
f
> they must fumble around for their ammuniôn ([snip]), penalize them on=
e
> or more CTs while they do this." The SF is 9.
> "Note that with the excepôn of `moving', `turning', `diving' and
> `drawing weapon', only ONE of the acôns listed on the SF table can be=

> performed in a CT."
> Now, am I to conclude that reloading takes a CT?? (nocking an arrow=

> can sure take _ME_ 3 seconds, but I'm no Archer [steep 5(-: maybe]) How=

> about the ROFs in the Missile Weapon table and the MISSILE ROF MODIFIER=
S
> on page 164, which usually add-up to more then once per every other CT?=
If
> the Reloading _should_ have been included in that second quote (i.e., i=
t
> can be done more then once per CT), why isn't the SF of 9 simply includ=
ed
> in the SF for the weapon?

Didn't realize that before, too. I always thought that an ROF of 4 with
a bow is way too high. But, as I get the rules, if someone already has
the arrows prepared and set up (maybe keeps them in his lev hand) the
"nding" of an arrow doesn't apply. So maybe reloading is only
necessary when the archer hasn't had enough ^me to prepare (I would
give them some 5 CTs up to 1 BT to do so).
Other opinions?

Bye,
J=F6rg
-- =

"I read somewhere to learn is to remember
And I've learned, we all forgot"
King's X - Legal Kill
J=F6rg Neulist neulist@student.uni-kl.de

URL: hkp://www.student.uni-kl.de/~neulist
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 08:59:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Wraiths and Elementals


>PS, WHy is this list so damn dead??
>
>

Because its August! And the only people who can play this game are
college-students/faculty (hence August deadness) or people who can play FTF
on a regular basis.

Which, unfortunately, is not me.

Timo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 08:52:34 -0700
Subject: Re: Mythus Magick

> Please reply privetly.

Arrrgh!!! Sorry.

Venom

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 08:51:57 -0700

At 02:30 PM 8/19/96 +0200, you wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone could help me get my own copy of Mythus
>Magick (book #2). If you can nd a Mail Order store who has the book
>that would be ne. If the store does not take mail orders that's ne
>too; I'll pay you the book's price+shipping (to either CT or Mass.).
> If there's any crazy person out there willing to part with a copy,
>I'll be more than happy to provide it with a new home, including adopôn
>fees :-).

I know where one is, and I can get it for you, but its full price, and
someone else mat be able to get it for a reduced price.

Mike

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 20:51:19 +0200
Subject: Opônal Combat Spacing

Hi everyone! Another qusôn:
According to the opônal spacing of acôns in combat (Mythus1
p.211), does the #of akacks table (p.163-164) maker at all? I mean,
according to these rules "a persona acts once at his or her iniâ^ve
point, then once every 10 points thereaver, un^ll the persona with the
highest iniâ^ve acts once". I always thought that this ment a persona
would act every 10 points UP TO THE NUMBER OF TIMES SHOWN ON THE #OF
ATTACKS TABLE, but then someone pointed out the sentence on the bokom of
the 1st column om p.211: "Note that this rule can change considerably the
number of akacks a pesona ends up making during a turn, whn compared to
the basic rules".
So, whats up? (and please, no "your the JM" replys. Thanks).
Akiva Esterson
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 22:09:24 -0700
From: Giuliano <gbabini@LINKNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Opônal Combat Spacing (and reloading too)

Avi Esterson wrote: About opônal spacing of acôn in Combat
(1st column om p.211 volume 1)
> "Note that this rule can change considerably the > number of akacks a pesona
> ends up making during a turn, whn compared to the basic rules".

I'm just encountering these problems, and I would like to point out that the quesôn
about acôns spacing could be very fun. My players tends to curse each other, because
there's the need that some HP roll a very high iniâ^ve, and no one want to.

If you accept that some character gets no chance to make all of his hand2hand
akacks in a CT, this could be a likle problem, because he can alway use his remaining
akacks to make parries. So you will see no ninja-style HP slashing with a 2-handed sword
thrice in three seconds, and that's good, thanx to Gygax.
The real problem could be with missile akacks, because unused akacks are lost.
But when I see one of my player (a Cymru Archer) with his self longbow, who should make
4 akacks in 3 second :-x I'm very happy of the limit imposed by iniâ^ve points!!
To further reduce his (and OPs, too) ROF, I've decided that bows, x-bow, and other
propelled weapons needs reloading.
Reload can and must be made in the same CT of akacking. Characters need not to reload every
single shot in a CT (otherwise
they will akack every 9+5=14 points of iniâ^ve!), instead, they add the reload factor (9) to
the speed factor of their weapon, nding the iniâ^ve point of their rst akack.
It's not perfectly realis^c (I assume that an archer, at the start of the CT, takes just the
arrows he need from the quiver to quickly subs^tute those red) but it seems to be playable (5
bakles tes^ng).

One could make some type of philosophical protest about the OPTIONAL SPACING OF ACTIONS.
For example, in a large combat, one persona rolling an high iniâ^ve could inuence the number
of akacks maked not by his opponent, but by all personas (opponents and allies), even if they
are gh^ng 100 yards faraway. Perhaps you could say that the CT is n-points (20?) long, as for
total surprise.

I've found no simpler ways of managing iniâ^ve points so far, so I'm going to stay with these
ones.

Finally, I want to say that I'm happy to see pos^ng about prac^cal game procedure.
Hey, monster deba^ng is ne, too ! :-)

+-+-+-+-+
| Dfron |
+-+-+-+-+
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 16:08:39 -0400

> "Reloading allows personas to nd and nock an arrow in a strung bow,
>load a bolt in a readied crossbow, or nd and place a sling bullet in a
>throng or sta sling, provided that the missile is readily at hand. If
>they must fumble around for their ammuniôn ([snip]), penalize them one
>or more CTs while they do this." The SF is 9.
> "Note that with the excepôn of `moving', `turning', `diving' and
>`drawing weapon', only ONE of the acôns listed on the SF table can be
>performed in a CT."

My understanding is that it does take a CT to reload, and that this is indeed
the case: that one res, then reloads, res. reloads, etc. The ROF
modifer does indeed seem to apply to bows (if the examples in Necropolis are
to be heeded) although there is a note in the combat secôn that the ROF
modier does not apply to device-propelled missles. You'd think a bow is a
device, but as far as I can tell it now only applies to crossbows, slings,
and bolas. I don't think this is a rules conict as much as an editorial
oversight (one of many in the rst book).

Of course, you have to interpret things the best way for your own campaign.
If you don't want them to have to spend ^me re-loading, simply ignore
those penalês.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:02:30 -0400

>>>How
about the ROFs in the Missile Weapon table and the MISSILE ROF MODIFIERS
on page 164, which usually add-up to more then once per every other CT?<<<

The mul^pliers for ROF based on STEEP do not apply to propelled missile
weapons, i.e. bows, crossbows, etc. They do apply to thrown weapons such as
spears, daggers, javelins, etc. If you read the text for the Combat, Hand
Weapons, Missile secôn very carefully it actually says so. However, being
the cauôus types we conrmed that with the GDW folks, and EGG.

So, 1st shot goes at iniâ^ve # modied by weapon speed. Second CT goes
at Iniâ^ve # modied by wpn spd +9. It goes, but slowly. Since
reloading most crossbows is a mul^-CT thing I don't think I'd apply this to
them except were an ROF of 1 or less is indicated.

>>>I always thought that this ment a persona
would act every 10 points UP TO THE NUMBER OF TIMES SHOWN ON THE #OF
ATTACKS TABLE, but then someone pointed out the sentence on the bokom of
the 1st column om p.211: "Note that this rule can change considerably the
number of akacks a pesona ends up making during a turn, whn compared to
the basic rules".<<<

It would indeed alter the number of akacks in a CT if you rolled poorly for
iniâ^ve. I would certainly make this read "up to the personas maximum
number of akacks per CT". However, it is probable that this won't be an
issue unless there are very slow crikers involved in the combat.
OTOH, I s^ll object to the "every 10 points" of the above secôn. A great
sword that "recycles" as fast as a dagger???? I think not!

Later
Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 02:04:48 -0600
Subject: Games


trying to get a comparison on peoples experiences on the
subject of the game if they liked it or not. What they liked
and what they don't like.

I would appreciate input thanks.

Dennis Thomas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:25:49 Z
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?P=E5l=00?= Arild Woje
<pal-arild.woje@BODO.IT.TELENOR.NO>
Subject: Games
In-Reply-To: <s2191d65.089@novell.com>

> trying to get a comparison on peoples experiences on the
> subject of the game if they liked it or not. What they liked
> and what they don't like.
> I would appreciate input thanks.
> Dennis Thomas

Hmm, that's a tall order, Dennis.
First of all, I suppose most of us here at the Mythus list does indeed
like the game (right guys?) I like it very much. I have only played it
as a GM, but my players agree that it's a good system.
The thing I like best about Mythus is the world (or AErth). It's looks
fairly standard as fantasy games go, but it's uniqe with it's exterior,
interior and Phaerie worlds. An then you have the various Planes
thrown in for good measure.
The source material is also very good. Only too bad T$R decided
to terminate it! Most of us here doesn't like TSR very much, but I am
digressing.
The source books that was produced are very good in my opinion.
Although "Necropolis" is a campaign book, it has all the source
material you need on the life and un-life in the Egyp region. Easily
converted to any desert (or other) seing.
What I doesn't like is the combat system, so I rewrote it to suit our
playing style.

PAW

wwww
(@ @)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (__) (__)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:29:39 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F6rg?= Neulist <neulist@STUDENT.UNI-KL.DE>
Subject: Re: Games

Hello Dennis!

> trying to get a comparison on peoples experiences on the
> subject of the game if they liked it or not. What they liked
> and what they don't like.

I don't think any of us would be on the list, if we wouldn't like the
game.
What I par^cularly liked is the very exible skill system and the
detail of the background informaôn. This is the rst fantasy rpg
known to me to be playable without reading tons of background before.
It's not always true, but this AErth stu is roughly what we know of
OUR Earth.
I misliked several things: specic target is much too strong!
yet, wound mental (dc IV) is even stronger (we changed the rules for
that one).
Combat Akack Rates are much too high (but not consistently so): the rof
of a crossbow (1/3) is ok - and not modied by STEEP.
the rof of a bow is ok, but modied by STEEP - which gives a good
archer 4 shots within 3 secs - this is ridiculous. Or, just imagine a
ghter with a two-handed sword slashing every second - also a man
wielding two bastard swords and akacking 6 ^mes!
We have not goken around to larger correcôns here, but in the current
form it is mess!

See ya,
Joerg
-- =

"I read somewhere to learn is to remember

J=F6rg Neulist: neulist@student.uni-kl.de
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 03:54:27 -0600
Subject: Games -Reply


just to let you know me and several of my players love the
game. We like the magic system the most.

What I heard is TSR sued Gygax. thats why it was
discon^nued.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 06:02:33 -0600


just wondering if you wanted the book it is in decent
condiôn you have my address from my earlier post
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 10:35:52 EDT
From: Christopher R Stainton <kappaabz@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Games -Reply

On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 03:54:27 -0600 "Dennis-c Thomas (Dennis-c Thomas)"
<dmthomas@NOVELL.COM> writes:

>
>What I heard is TSR sued Gygax. thats why it was
>discon^nued.
>
Well.............................................that's part of it. But
this conversaôn has been done thousands of ^mes (maybe I'm
exaggera^ng here, at least scores) before, check some of the Mythus-L
logs.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 10:35:52 EDT

Subject: Re: Games

>trying to get a comparison on peoples experiences on the
>subject of the game if they liked it or not. What they liked
>and what they don't like.

IMHO First, I think can safely say that most of the recipients of this
list do like the game, and for a variety of reasons. For myself, it's
the fact that aver you create your rst character, there's this sense
of wonder that you don't get from T$R's fantasy adventure RPG. It seems
that most of the characters are carbon copies and require a seriously
crea^ve mind to make unique (a trait lacking these days among many EGS
gamers). But with Mythus, the character background and generaôn
process is rich with detail, and each HP, OP, and EP is truly unique.
Then there's the magic(k) system...........................need I
say more?
I like the fact that it is a skills based game rather than an
akribute based game. Makes it more realis^c (For a fantasy game).
The campaign seing is also well done, with lots of room for
expansion, and like any GOOD RPG system, it's easily alterable to suit
the individual JM's needs. The one thing I like is the fact that (for
the most part) elves and dwarves and gnomes and orcs and dragons aren't
running around compe^ng with humans for: Land, food, wealth, power,
etc.....
And I, personally, have a loyalty to the man who brought RPGs to
millions of people worldwide. Some do, some don't care about anything
but the almighty dollar, and in a certain companies products, the lack of
quality vs. the price of the product don't make much sense to me as a
consumer........................................but I digress. It's such
a hard issue to talk about without geing emoônal. IMHO
The last, and certainly not least, thing I do like is the support
by The Few, The Proud, The Mythus Gamers, who have kept this game alive
in spite of it's "deceased" status. It seems, by and large, to have
unlocked the crea^ve potenâl in many individuals, who wouldn't have
had the need to be crea^ve had they been Zombies and stayed with the
mean green machine (T$R).
What I don't like is the lack of players and JMs. It is not only
a "hard" system, but a mature system for experienced gamers. Once you
gure it out, though, the system can be extremely rewarding. Also, the
availability of products is so limited that nding people who have
actually played is also limited.........thanks to........
Some of the game systems (Combat) need a likle tweaking, as per
individual JM, but all in all it's a hell of a lot more accurate than
EGS.
In conclusion, this is a game that is ours to with as we please.
It lives on through the dedicated fans/players, and it doesn't look like
that will ever change (thank God).

Thank you Gary and Dave
And thank you Myhtus-L List authors who have put your ideas down on
electronic paper.

Chris Stainton
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 10:37:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Okay...
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960816130614.00713a50@pop.âc.net> from "John R. Troy"
at Aug 16, 96 09:06:14 am

> (I don't really have my hopes up on TSR crea^ve, here--but there could be a
> glimmer of hope, since TSR has published Ivid via e-format).

So what is "Ivid"? And if it has anything to do with the Overking Ivid IV
of the Great Kingdom I want to know where I can get it!

Dan.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:46:04 -0600
Reply-To: kaos@cyberport.net
From: Kaos <kaos@CYBERPORT.NET>
Organizaôn: Mul^-Millennium Hobbies

OK, the group that I have been running a game for over the last three
years has used the following system of my own devising, which is just a
variaôn of the normal rules. Players who try being a GM in my circle
of gamers tend to use this rule as well, and has kind of become an
ocial rule around here (here being Whitesh, MT).

Everyone rolls Iniâ^ve by rolling a d10 plus Weapon Speed plus Armor
SF minus PSpd (as appropriate, meaning Neural for missiles Muscular for
melee, yadda yadda). To space the akacks we do not use the standard 10
point system. I nd it unlikely that someone swings a 2-handed mace or
sword as quickly as someone can jab or slash with a dagger. Instead, we
space out the akacks by adding your Weapon Speed plus your armor SF and
using that for the spacing factor. For ambidextrous or oren^ne
ghters, they roll iniâ^ve for both hands. It requires a likle
extra bookkeeping, but adds to the realism of the game, and also gives
the HPs reasons not to all have really big weapons all the ^me. Also,
the bookkeeping factor really goes down if your players keep track of
all this info.
The way I handle it is simple. One, I trust my players. Everyone in
my group agrees that chea^ng at a RPG is preky dumb. Why play if ya
hava cheat? Two, everyone in my group can handle simple math. For
those who get a likle confused by the rules (newbies) someone is also
willing to help (even if it some^mes takes a cakle prod), Three, how

I actually do it. (ramble, ramble). OK, everyone rolls iniâ^ve
while I roll it for the "bad guys". Aver I gure out the "bad guys"
init. I go around the table and ask everyone's iniâ^ve. This give
this to me, including the spacing of their akacks. For example, one
player who is ambidextrous says, with my sword I have -10 and -3, and my
manopele has -12 and -7 (or something like that). I record all the
iniâ^ves on scrap paper and as the HPs or EPs go through their
acôns, erase them. Really, it goes preky well. :)

Kaos
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 13:08:10 -0400

At 10:37 AM 8/20/96 -0500, you wrote:
>> (I don't really have my hopes up on TSR crea^ve, here--but there could be a
>> glimmer of hope, since TSR has published Ivid via e-format).
>
>So what is "Ivid"? And if it has anything to do with the Overking Ivid IV
>of the Great Kingdom I want to know where I can get it!
>
>Dan.

I haven't followed TSR's version of Greyhawk much aver its creator lev,
but apparently TSR was going to publish a module called "Ivid the Undying",
but then cancelled it as the whole GH line was. So, apparently based on
consumer demand, and as a sign of good-will, TSR made the unpublished
material available on the Internet.

Here's the URL

vp://vp.mpgn.com/Gaming/ADND/Worlds/Greyhawk/

I don't know which le(s) are the right ones, though. There's also a very
good index of the seing on the World of Greyhawk, including a list of what
might have been from EGG and Rob Kuntz.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 13:43:15 -0400
From: Josh Elarton <JElarton@AOL.COM>


For those of you on America Online, "Ivid the Undying" is also available at
Keyword: TSR, under the "Download of the Month". Its available in DOS and Mac
format, and 3 maps are also available....
I only menôn this in case anyone wishes to convert the info to Mythus :-)

Josh
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 15:21:48 -0400

At 01:43 PM 8/20/96 -0400, you wrote:
> For those of you on America Online, "Ivid the Undying" is also available at
>Keyword: TSR, under the "Download of the Month". Its available in DOS and Mac
>format, and 3 maps are also available....
> I only menôn this in case anyone wishes to convert the info to Mythus :-)
>
Yeah, I forgot about this.

This is the reason why I think TSR can allow MMM to be published as well,
especially considering the fact that computer formated les are readilly
available. If they are willing to do so for Greyhawk, why not Dangerous
Journeys. I don't think it realis^c to support the game in any other way,
but /this/, at least, is doable.

If they choose to do so, I'll consider it a willingness to accomidate
people. But if they do not, I will consider it a statement by the corporate
elite there that there is a more or less personal/non-business related
element towards the suit or the decision. (Especially since Sean has stated
it's cleared by legal, so there are no issues /there/).
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 19:45:10 -0400
From: wayne saunders <weiner@NETROVER.COM>
Subject: Re: Mythus Magick -Reply

At 06:02 96-08-20 -0600, you wrote:
>** Reply Requested When Convenient **
>
>just wondering if you wanted the book it is in decent
>condiôn you have my address from my earlier post

>
>Help i screwed up by erasing the orignal list message that allows me to
sign o i want o this thing if possible mail me the way to get o thankz
weiner@netrover.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 20:24:21 -0400

<bigger>While looking at the Greyhawk le wriken by Roger E. Moore, he

makes a very interes^ng point about how Greyhawk might have been adapted

from AErth--at least a theory or two. I'm reproducing it here for the

curious, since there are many GH fans here, and some who adapt both

campaigns for their own

Following is Copyright 1886 TSR, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Given the extensive use of reversed maps of Earth in the DANGEROUS

JOURNEYS game's EPIC OF AERTH(TM) accessory, it is interes^ng to toy

with the published maps of the Flanaess as those of a reversed and

heavily modied Europe. The Solnor Ocean would then be the Atlan^c, the

Thillonrian peninsula (with its Corusk Mountains) Scandinavia, the Azure

Sea the Mediterranean, etc. The t is far from accurate, but intriguing.

Oriental/Asian cultures would then lie far to the west, which was the TSR

Games division's original concepôn of where the lands of Kara Tur (from

the AD&D 1st Ediôn <<Oriental Adventures> volume) were to go, before

they were nally placed in the FORGOTTEN REALMS seing.

</bigger>

==================

John R. Troy (JRT)

johntroy@âc.net

==================
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:56:31 +0200
Subject: The combat issues

Hello,
Here are my replys to some of the messages about Reolading and about
the Spacing of acôns in combat. (I'm sorry I don't have quote markes >
before your text; I'm doing this all o line, with my capture le and a
text editor...) Thanks to all!
========================================================================
Giuliano <gbabini@LINKNET.IT> worte:
"If you accept that some character gets no chance to make all of
his hand2hand akacks in a CT, this could be a likle problem, because he
can alway use his remaining akacks to make parries. So you will see no
ninja-style HP slashing with a 2-handed sword thrice in three seconds, and
that's good, thanx to Gygax.
"The real problem could be with missile akacks, because unused
akacks are lost."
Well, I think I'll rule that you can't block ANYTHING if you haven't
even acted once in the CT in qusôn. Aver all, you can't block an
akack if you are to slow to even see it coming!
"One could make some type of philosophical protest about the
OPTIONAL SPACING OF ACTIONS. For example, in a large combat, one persona
rolling an high iniâ^ve could inuence the number of akacks maked not
by his opponent, but by all personas (opponents and allies), even if they
are gh^ng 100 yards faraway. Perhaps you could say that the CT is
n-points (20?) long, as for total surprise."
Well, rst of all, I wouldn't make a regular CT the same langth as a
Total Surprise, but it's a good idea. About the inuncing of number of
akacks, I said in my original message that I thought this rule ment you
would akack every 10 points UP TO THE NUMBER DICTATED BY HIS STEEP. I
tried the thing with the number of points per CT in AD&D (sorry...), but
geing a number that made sense is a mess.
"I've found no simpler ways of managing iniâ^ve points so far,
so I'm going to stay with these ones."
I'm not exactly looking for a simple way; if I was looking for that I
wouldn't even use these OPTIONAL rules! (but I see your point)
"Finally, I want to say that I'm happy to see pos^ng about prac^cal
game procedure."
I haven't been on this list for long, but I got the imperssion you
where lacking in these kinds of posts. I've got a few more qusôns
coming up... :-).
=======================================================================
Donald Eccles <Darkman416@AOL.COM>
"My understanding is that it does take a CT to reload, and that this
is indeed the case: that one res, then reloads, res. reloads, etc.
The ROF modifer does indeed seem to apply to bows (if the examples in
Necropolis are to be heeded)"
What examples are you refering too? (I have the book)
"although there is a note in the combat secôn that the ROF modier
does not apply to device-propelled missles."
Can you nd that one for me too, please?
"You'd think a bow is a device,"
Yes, I would.
"but as far as I can tell it now only applies to crossbows, slings,
and bolas. I don't think this is a rules conict as much as an editorial
oversight (one of many in the rst book)."
If your answer seemed to work, I'd love it. However, on the Missile
Weapons tables (p.238-239) there are many weapons of both kinds (devices
and hand) with a ROF higher then 1, such as:
Bow, self (short) ROF 1.5
Cho-ko-nu ROF 2
Knife ROF 2
etc.
"Of course, you have to interpret things the best way for your own
campaign. If you don't want them to have to spend ^me re-loading, simply
ignore those penalês.
Don"
Actually, _I_ don't want to have to spend ^me re-loading, but since I
want my PLAYERS to have to :-), I want to gure out these rules.
========================================================================
Richard Crook <Kelthar@AOL.COM>
"The mul^pliers for ROF based on STEEP do not apply to propelled
missile weapons, i.e. bows, crossbows, etc. They do apply to thrown
weapons such as spears, daggers, javelins, etc."
Again, thw Bow, self (short) has a ROF of 1.5 acording to both the
Mythus book and the JM Screen (which is to "take procedence over those in
the Mythus and Mythus Magick books, where there are disagreements" -p.2).
"If you read the text for the Combat, Hand Weapons, Missile secôn
very carefully it actually says so. However, being the cauôus types we
conrmed that with the GDW folks, and EGG."
Well, if they (espicelay HE) said so, I wont argue. I see what pou
meen about reading it carefully; it CAN be found, but I would NOT say that
it "actualy SAYS so". There's a hint, no more.
"So, 1st shot goes at iniâ^ve # modied by weapon speed. Second
CT goes at Iniâ^ve # modied by wpn spd +9. It goes, but slowly."
I didn't understand that at ALL. Why should you only havr to reload
every other CT? A average archer shoots one arrow, reloads, shoots,
reloads, etc.!!!
"OTOH, I s^ll object to the "every 10 points" of the above secôn.
A great sword that "recycles" as fast as a dagger???? I think not!"
Keep on reading. Someone agrees with you and thought of a soloôn.
========================================================================
Kaos <kaos@CYBERPORT.NET>
"OK, the group that I have been running a game for over the last three
years has used the following system of my own devising, which is just a
variaôn of the normal rules. Players who try being a GM in my circle of
gamers tend to use this rule as well, and has kind of become an ocial
rule around here (here being Whitesh, MT)."
Well, I think it's about to become an ocial rule around here to
(here being Modi'im, Israel) :-) THANKS!!!
"Everyone rolls Iniâ^ve by rolling a d10 plus Weapon Speed plus
Armor SF minus PSpd (as appropriate, meaning Neural for missiles Muscular
for melee, yadda yadda). To space the akacks we do not use the standard
10 point system. I nd it unlikely that someone swings a 2-handed mace
or sword as quickly as someone can jab or slash with a dagger. Instead,
we space out the akacks by adding your Weapon Speed plus your armor SF
and using that for the spacing factor. For ambidextrous or oren^ne
ghters, they roll iniâ^ve for both hands. It requires a likle extra
bookkeeping, but adds to the realism of the game, and also gives the HPs
reasons not to all have really big weapons all the ^me. Also, the
bookkeeping factor really goes down if your players keep track of all this
info."
That makes a _LOT_ of sense. I'm happy you took the ^me to write.
However, I hope I don't lose some players with these complicaôns ;-).
"The way I handle it is simple."
Mythus? Simple? I don't think so.
"Three, how I actually do it. (ramble, ramble). OK, everyone rolls
iniâ^ve while I roll it for the "bad guys". Aver I gure out the
"bad guys" init. I go around the table and ask everyone's iniâ^ve.
This give this to me, including the spacing of their akacks. For example,
one player who is ambidextrous says, with my sword I have -10 and -3, and
my manopele has -12 and -7 (or something like that). I record all the
iniâ^ves on scrap paper and as the HPs or EPs go through their acôns,
erase them. Really, it goes preky well. :)"
Well, although I like your rules, they do give me some more
responsability. I think I'll make up a chart with numbers from -20 to 20
[?], with a place for HP (or OP) name, and for the type and mode of
akack, and just pass it around the table. Actually, I could make space
for the FAC, the D% roll, the damage roll and everything else, and then
just run through the CT! (then on the other hand, I might just use your
way- it's simpler...).
=========================================================================
Again, thanks for all the answeres. While I feel that the Spacing
qusôn has been answered, add if you wish. however, I s^ll would like a
few explanaôns for the Reloading: do regular bows have a ROF, and is
reloading for device-weapons done in the same CT (in which case I think
the SF should have been included in the weapon's) or in a seperate one (in
which case I don't think the SF is needed at all).
Akiva Esterson
P.S. Are there any PLAYERS (non-GMs) round here?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 14:10:54 +0300

In-Reply-To: <321B3D4B.322B@cyberport.net>

On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Kaos wrote:

> Everyone rolls Iniâ^ve by rolling a d10 plus Weapon Speed plus Armor
> SF minus PSpd (as appropriate, meaning Neural for missiles Muscular for
> melee, yadda yadda). To space the akacks we do not use the standard 10
> point system. I nd it unlikely that someone swings a 2-handed mace or
> sword as quickly as someone can jab or slash with a dagger. Instead, we
> space out the akacks by adding your Weapon Speed plus your armor SF and
> using that for the spacing factor. For ambidextrous or oren^ne
> ghters, they roll iniâ^ve for both hands.

Sound good, but I think that's what the book says, except for
oren^ne and ambidextrous. As I recall, in combat or in skill descripôns, it says that speed factors of weapons and armor
are added to that 10, or I think that was meaning of text.
(You may use amer against me, if you wish, but this ain't ame,
just a opinion).

> I actually do it. (ramble, ramble). OK, everyone rolls iniâ^ve
> while I roll it for the "bad guys". Aver I gure out the "bad guys"
> init. I go around the table and ask everyone's iniâ^ve. This give
> this to me, including the spacing of their akacks. For example, one
> player who is ambidextrous says, with my sword I have -10 and -3, and my
> manopele has -12 and -7 (or something like that). I record all the
> iniâ^ves on scrap paper and as the HPs or EPs go through their
> acôns, erase them. Really, it goes preky well. :)
>

Quite simple, but good method(Ain't all good invenôns simpe?).
I think I'll adopt this method of iniâ^ve to other systems I
play or referee...

Kautsu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 20:34:29 +0200
Subject: I promissed another qusôn: Small targets.

Hi!
I was throwing some stones at a tree-stump when the following thought
occurred to me:
Shouldn't it be harder to hit a small target (i.e. It would be much
harder to hit a Brownie then hiing a Giant).
Is this:
A) Included in the rule-books somewhere where I somehow missed it?
B) Included in creatures Armor Tables?
C) Discussed somewhere in Journeys, MMM, or in this list?
D) Not included in the Mythus rules?
Akiva E. Esterson
ISRAEL
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:49:59 -0400
Subject: Re: The combat issues

<< "The mul^pliers for ROF based on STEEP do not apply to propelled
missile weapons, i.e. bows, crossbows, etc. They do apply to thrown
weapons such as spears, daggers, javelins, etc."
Again, thw Bow, self (short) has a ROF of 1.5 acording to both the
Mythus book and the JM Screen (which is to "take procedence over those in
the Mythus and Mythus Magick books, where there are disagreements" -p.2). >>

Don't confuse ROF with the mul^plier granted for STEEP. The Short self bow
ROF of 1.5 is en^rely consistent with my comments above. The main point
being that a Long bow gets a total of one shot per CT, the short self bow
1.5, a medium xbow 1/2(I think), etc.
BTW, the weapon charts were revised and expanded yet a third ^me by issue #2
of MMM.

>>> "So, 1st shot goes at iniâ^ve # modied by weapon speed. Second
CT goes at Iniâ^ve # modied by wpn spd +9. It goes, but slowly."
I didn't understand that at ALL. Why should you only havr to reload
every other CT? A average archer shoots one arrow, reloads, shoots,
reloads, etc.!!!<<<

Hmmm, I see I wasn't explicit enuf.
CT#1 (Persona is standing with an arrow nocked, but not otherwise ready,
assume a long self bow except where noted)
His 1st shot occurs at iniâ^ve #(rolled) modied by weapon speed..

CT#2 (Persona is now standing there with an unloaded weapon)
This second shot goes at Iniâ^ve # modied by wpn spd +9, as he must
rst reload his weapon. [If this were a short self bow the persona would
get another shot this round at: prev. shot + weapon speed +9(reload again)]

CT#3 con^nues per CT#2 above [with the SSB wielder geing two shots on even
numbered CTs].
It doesn't alterna^ve between CTs, I just assumed in my iniâl example that
the persona already had an arrow nocked.

Hope this clears up the confusion

Later

Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:55:01 -0400
Subject: Re: I promissed another qusôn: Small targets.

<< Shouldn't it be harder to hit a small target (i.e. It would be much
harder to hit a Brownie then hiing a Giant).
Is this:
A) Included in the rule-books somewhere where I somehow missed it?
B) Included in creatures Armor Tables?
C) Discussed somewhere in Journeys, MMM, or in this list?
D) Not included in the Mythus rules? >>

A) Nope, t'ain't there

B) Denitely NOT. What do you think this is, the EGS?????

C) Again no.

D) Yes, sadly enough.

I have a chart at home that modies the FAC for target size. Dierent
modiers for melee or missile re. In addiôn, I have modied the chance
to parry the blow of an opponent substanâlly larger or smaller than
oneself.

This weekend I shall endeavor to print this info to the list.

Later

Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 00:32:30 -0400
In-Reply-To: <32194884.41AF@linknet.it>

Oh please!! :)

Let me get my nally generally completed le on Conbat Rule Changes/

Interpretaôns out.

Someone with a web site let me send it to you! Mike Phillips? :)

I just have to gure out whether or not Word Perfect 7 (go buy it) can
properly translate the tables wrote.

Anyway, the synopsis is this: Everyone has the ability to do 3 acôns in
a CT. Each thing, like an akack, a reload, standing, siing,
whatever... takes an acôn or 2 (or 3, or 0, or whatever)...

I've tested it a couple ^mes, and it works great, as long as the JM can
do simple addiôn/subtracôn in his head...

Oh yeah, the important part: The CT ends when the slowest guy does one
thing.

Oh god, let me get this out--you people who aren't against changing a rule
or two will love it. :)

Jesse
(Back, and here again)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 21:47:19 -0700
Subject: Re: I promissed another qusôn: Small targets.

At 06:55 PM 8/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
><< Shouldn't it be harder to hit a small target (i.e. It would be much
> harder to hit a Brownie then hiing a Giant).
> Is this:
> A) Included in the rule-books somewhere where I somehow missed it?
> B) Included in creatures Armor Tables?
> C) Discussed somewhere in Journeys, MMM, or in this list?
> D) Not included in the Mythus rules? >>

Just modify the DR. Remember that this should be parâlly compensated for
by changing the Speeds for size dierences, well kinda.

Venom

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 01:02:41 -0400

Subject: Combat Rules, sort of

Okay, this is going to be messy... :)

I'm pos^ng the text to my slightly-modied Mythus combat rules. Take it
for what its worth. A couple notes:

1. I changed the ATTRIBUTES. Got sick of Caps and shit (Don't burn me,
just a favorite house rule). So if you see stu like Agility or
Intuiôn or something (I don't know what-all's in there), just pretend
it's a Cap or Pow or someh^ng... :)

2. Tables are missing. I have a few in the original. I'm going to get it
HTMLized thanks to WP 7 (go buy it, kick MS-Word's ass), and put it
somewhere (who wants it??? :)). It will make more sense then, but this is
the basic idea.

3. This has WORKED, and worked well, in prac^ce. You just have to add
some numbers together, and decide who goes when. No trouble! :) It's
fun, too...

4. If you read this, you HAVE to respond. :)

Okay, here goes...

Jesse
-Rule Addiôn/Claricaôn:

Jesse's Alterna^ve Combat for Mythus
Or...how I learned to mess with more rules

As far as I'm concerned, combat rules were made to be modied. So that
is what I am about to do:

Timing
Time during combat is measured in Cri^cal Turns. Each of these is
about 3 seconds--only enough ^me to swing a couple ^mes with a weapon,
speak a couple sentences, move around a bit, etc. It isn't really
all that long! Remember this when you are trying to do things during a CT,
and don't be surprised if complex tasks take more than a single CT to
complete...

Iniâ^ve and Acôns

This is the secôn where we will dier most from the base Mythus
rules. Timing is everything, I guess. The problem I've run into is, what
if two men square o--one has a great sword and the other an epee, and
they have equal 65 STEEP scores. By the rules, they should both get 3
akacks/CT. I think that the epee should go a lot more oven than the
great sword... The other quesôns involve doing something other than
simple akacks in combat. What about Cas^ngs? Mul^ple weapons?
Movement? All these things should be answered...

Base Iniâ^ve will be calculated normally. It is a 1D10 roll,
subtrac^ng the appropriate ATTRIBUTE (see Mythus Combat chapter for
details on that), and adding in any armor penalês (plus any other
special modiers, as in those due to magick). Everything except the 1D10
roll should be recorded on the HP Record, in the BIM (for Base Iniâ^ve
Modier) square. That way, it generally won't have to be gured out
every damn combat! That is the easy part: the lowest number gets to go
rst.

Acôns

Acôns are a new idea of mine (well, their incorporaôn into
Mythus, that is). Each persona has a limited amount of ^me to do
anything during a short CT. The trouble is, exactly what can you do, and
how much can you do? This started as a problem I had with the Weapons,
Special Skills (Floren^ne) K/S. Let's say a warrior has, and is using, a
long sword and a mace, and his STEEP in each Sub-Area is 61. There is no
way that this persona should be allowed to make 6 akacks (3 with each
weapon) in a single Cri^cal Turn! Another interes^ng quesôn is the
idea of how many akacks would he get if each weapon had an akack rate of
1.5?
Every single persona in Mythus (unless stated otherwise) has the
ability to perform three acôns in any CT. It is of no signicance
that the persona is incredibly fast or pathe^cally slow. If
circumstances are right, anyone would be able to perform three acôns.
Everything a persona may do, including (but not limited to) akacking,
defending, moving, talking, or using a Cas^ng, costs a number of
acôns. Table 1 (you'll note it's missing here!) summarizes the number
of acôns which are required for each chosen act.
This is not as simple as it seems, however, as there is no guarantee
that each persona will get three acôns. To account for the fact that
during some combats certain personae would be able to do much more than
others, the following limit is u^lized: the CT ends when the slowest
persona has been able to perform one acôn, regardless of the number of
acôns it takes. Note in Table 1 that each acôn also has an iniâ^ve
penalty associated with it. Whenever that acôn is the rst thing done
in a CT, the iniâ^ve penalty should be added to the persona's Base
Iniâ^ve. If the acôn is rendered as the second or subsequent in the
CT, the iniâ^ve penalty (along with Armor SF) is added to the current
Iniâ^ve of the persona, such that the exact ^ming of the acôn can
be determined.
Therefore, each CT starts at the Base Iniâ^ve Modier, plus the
acôn iniâ^ve of the quickest persona, and counts up from there, each
combatant proceeding to akack when the count reaches his/her iniâ^ve.
The CT ends once the slowest persona is able to perform a single acôn.
The end of the CT is absolute! If a warrior is using a sword with which
he would normally get three akacks, but the CT ends aver only one, he
loses his addiônal akacks. It may be obvious from this example that
heavily armored, greatsword-wielding knights will be at a fair
disadvantage in the number of akacks which would be allowed. This is
true, but consider that each akack is capable (most likely) of doing
much more PD than say, an epee.

Parrying

Parrying is oven a dicult problem, simply because of the speeds
involved. Most people probably choose not to worry about it. I have
gured a way to include it in with your total number of akacks. Parrying
counts toward the total number of akacks allowed by a weapon, but it
does not cost an acôn to perform. This means that a persona with 3
akacks will only be allowed 2 akacks and a parry, or no akacks and 3
parries, and so on. The dierence is, when we are playing with the
opôn where the CT ends once the slowest persona goes once, a persona may
lose some actual oensive akacks. Using the example stated above, a man
with a great sword may only get one akack and the persona using a foil
would get two against him. Adding the rules for parrying, the expert
great sword-wielder (with a 61 STEEP) could use two parries (of his three
akacks) without worrying about losing his akempt. This allows personas
with large, slow weapons to get some advantage from their choice.
This also greatly benets a persona wielding two weapons with 61+
STEEP in each. According to Mythus rules, he'd get 6 akacks. With my
rules, the most he could use is 3. The three which he loses could be used
as parries, which makes him very tough to damage.
By the way, just to be complete, the actual roll to Parry is not
changed from standard Mythus rules convenôns: Roll BAC, and as long as
your result is not worse than the akacker's, consider it parried!

One Other Combat Modier: Stance

Combat Stance is essenâlly a choice by the HP, to assume an
Oensive, Defensive, or Neutral posiôn. This is a highly variable
modier, and the player can choose to change his HP's Stance each CT if
desired. Unless stated during the Declaraôn part of each CT, all
combatants are assumed to be gh^ng in a Neutral Stance.
In choosing a Stance, the player decides how much more eort he
wishes to put into it. In game terms, the player chooses to increase or
decrease his FAC by anywhere 1 to 15. Therefore, when a player feels it
is ^me to throw everything into an akack, he states his intent, and
adds 15 points to his FAC. There is another side to this, however: anyone
in direct melee combat with this persona gains exactly the same modier.
Thus, in the rst example, anyone akacking this beserk HP also gets
plus 15 FAC. As you can see, the HP's chance to hit is increased greatly,
but then again, so is everyone akacking him. The same sort of modier
applies to a Defensive Stance, although it subtracts from the HP's FAC as
well as any akackers.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 00:06:32 -0500
Subject: Fw: Rejected pos^ng to MYTHUS-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU

>From: teskej@centuryinter.net
>To: schmidtj@win.bright.net (aj)
>Subject: Fw: Rejected pos^ng to MYTHUS-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU
>Date: Wed, 21 Aug 96 22:38:18 GMT
>
>Hello everyone.
>
>It has been a while since I posted to the list. However, I felt I should
>con^bute on the subject of reasons why I like Mythus.
>
>As Chris Stainton menôned, there is so much that I like about Mythus...in
>fact, what is there not to like? The combat system is a bit cumbersome, and I
>do admit I do not follow the rules 100% verba^m, but then again the spirit of
>RPGs is that GMs keep what they like and modify what they do not. There are
>few if any AD+D games that I know of that follow the core rules (3rd or
>whatever ediôn you wish to call it...2nd ediôn MODIFIED). SO I play with a
>modied version of the combat system. I am forever looking for more elegant
>ways and am con^nually tweaking it to improve it, some^me to the approval and
>some^mes to the disgruntlement of my players. In the end it remains an
>essenâlly A Mythus combat system though.
>
>In any case I digress. I used to play EGS. Mythus however handles everything
>that EGS did not, such as a tricky roleplaying encounter with a noble, a nasty
>possession, the non-essenâls of public administraôn; perhaps the beauty of
>the system is the ease at which ANY situaôn can either be role-played or
>reduced to a simple dice roll, depending on khe preference of the JM and
>player(s) involved. I do NOT think EGS converted ANY situaôn as easily to a
>dice roll.
>
>The magic system is certainly not perfect, but in comparison to AD+D it is much
>more rened and far more balanced. Although hekacraevers are certainly
>powerful, they are less so than their AD+D counterparts. SOme of the newer
>spells in the revised second ediôn are very game warping. FOr example, those
>of you familiar with TSR and RPGA, look at the diculês TSR is having with
>Living City. Even Characters that are 5th through 7th level have sucient
>power cas^ng-wise to make things dicult for GMs, given the array of lengthy
>duraôn cas^ngs. ANd while Mythus does have some problems spells (eg
>Trigger) by far and away it is more balanced and more thought out. I daresay
>that a Living City campaign would be far more balanced if Mythus rules were
>used. It is a shame TSR does not so promote the Mythus game system, for there
>are rules in Mythus that nicely handle "down ^me"; AD+D has no similar rules.
>A Living CIty based on Mythus rules would be awesome!
>
>In fact, that is another reason I do like Mythus...to be playable, a game
>system really needs to handle the ^me _in between_ adventures as well as it
>handles adventures. What good is an ongoing campaign if your characters cannot
>do anything _in between_ adventures. Peky rules disallowing creaôn of 5
>con^nual light rocks a day for the 5 months in between adventures seem
>arbitrary and random at best....Mythus solves the core problem by reducing
>overall duraôn of cas^ngs. Instead, to create something that has the
>eect of con^nual light, one must akempt Alchemy or Heka forging; IMHO, this
>is the way it should be. And there is no arbitrary rule disallowing that; it
>just takes more ^me and eort. In the end, the product is an item with the
>properês desired, and deserving the care such a useful item should have.
>
>Economics and monetary gain from investments is also nicely handles in Mythus;
>I know of no easy corresponding rules in EGS. Very oven adventurers have the
>opportunity to make a ^dy bundle with a few well-invested gold coins, and the
>rules presented in the core Mythus books handle this smoothly and very well. A
>player made a series of very wise investments in my game, and inuenced the
>outcome with Joss and good rolling and made a bundle! EGS rulings on monetary
>gain, I suspect, would not be so elegant. It took me a likle less than one
>hour to gure out the results of a year's investments. I think in EGS the
>process would have involved a considerable amount of more debate,
>raônalizaôn, and dicerolling. Mythus handles it smoothly, simply, and
>fast.
>
>Special COnnecôns has no equivalent in EGS or several other game systems I
>have looked at. ALso, unlike EGS, each K/s area comes into its own in Mythus
>for all areas become important at one ^me or another. When was the last ^me
>your EGS character used (maybe chose would be a beker verb) the agriculture
>non-weapon prociency? EGS is just not set up to handle, say, an adventure
>centered around the agriculture abiliês. WIth the diversity of skills
>encouraged in Mythus, likely someone is going to have agricultural skills, so
>an adventure based around that K/s area would be possible. ALso, given the
>diversity, even if agriculture was not possessed, likely characters would have
>other skills that would allow similar although not iden^cal abiliês to those
>granted by the agricultre k/s area. EGS characters would not be so fortunate.
>
>The idea of character background is richer in Mythus IMHO. The ideas mirror
>similar ideas in Unearthed Arcana, but are much more developed. UA is in any
>case rst ediôn and is out of date.
>
>Joss is a welcome addiôn, and allows players to inuence events unlike EGS.
>A player is able to state "this is IMPORTANT" with Joss in a way a player is
>not able to do in EGS. If you roll poorly in EGS too bad. If you roll poorly
>in Mythus, you can compensate or negate it en^rely with Joss, to s^ll try to
>achieve the outcome you, the player, desire.
>
>Quirks and COunterquirks are awesome.
>
>Coming up with prices of non-standard things is SO much easier with the BUC
>system. Things are much harder in EGS, although with the proliferaôn of
>sourcebooks, there is a preky complete list of prices now in EGS.
>
>Disease and Insanity are both handled with much more ease in the Mythus system
>than in EGS. There is likle comparison. Poison is easy in EGS, easier than
>Mythus, but lacks a certain realism; perhaps one might accuse EGS of being too
>simple in this case.
>
>All in all, the Mythus system is just a much more rich system than EGS; I
>admit, I have likle experience with other game systems to aord other
>comparisons. I s^ll on occasion play EGS, but mainly I favor Mythus for the
>above as the main reasons.
>
>Quesôns? COmments are always welcome.
>
>Oh, btw, a few months ago wasn't there a similar discussion on "Why I like
>Mythus"?
>
>John Teske
>Mythus Advocate
>
>PS Did any of you play the Mythus event at GenCOn?
>
>AJ >
>Could you help me get this to the Mythus-L?
>Thanks.
>
>JT

Certainly not a prob! :)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 01:08:45 -0400
Subject: Combat Stance...hmmm...

Hey guys!

Realizing that about 2% of you will even read my new and improved combat
rules...

Down in the secôn called Combat Stance, I just made up an arbitrary
limit of 15 for the modier (I'm not going to repeat the rule here for
all you losers who didn't read the real thing. :)).

Anyway, did anyone no^ce that it sounds a lot like Bob Dole's 15% tax
cut? (Who the FUCK could say no to that? stupid people) Anyway, that's
just it--it's an arbitrary number, because some of my players are known to
get out of hand...

You could really make that no limit at all. The idea of the system would
work the same either way.

Okay, I'll shut up for this evening...

Hmm...Hot weather and late nights make me sound like a grade-school
knucklehead. Sorry for the rather simplis^c english. I'll try to do a
likle beker tomorrow... :)

Jesse
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 17:07:54 UT
From: Joshua D'Andrea <shinsoku@MSN.COM>
Subject: Marâl Arts and another monk...

Since everybody has been talking about comabat I decided to share a
likle project that I've been working on. I love the whole Mythus sy
stem, bu the one thing that always bugged me was the HTH lethal and n
on lethal KS areas. especially because one of my characters was a Ch
ingunese marâl ar^st.
a quick disclaimer... I am presently living in Japan and have no acc
ess to my books (or a dicônary for that maker so excuse the spelli
ng errors) so a lot of the things that I've done are really sketchy a
nd mostly from my faulty memory, so if you want to use them in your r
espec^ve campaigns I think you'll have to do a lot of eshing out o
n your own.

NEW KS AREA HTH/MARTIAL ARTS PMcap/PNcap this ks works preky much t
he same way as HTH melee except that it has four sub areas:
1. punching
2. kicking
3. throwing
4. grappling

specializing in a subarea is allowed. Since I don't have my books, I
've had a lot of problems guring out appropriate damage and akacks
per CT, but I think that a the basic use of HTH lethal rates for pun
ching and kicking and non-lethal for throwing and grappling should wo
rk ne. (if anyone wants to give me a hand, I'd appreciate it)
Steep in any of these areas gives you the ability to parry other no
n weapon akacks at MA steep, but not weapon ones like from say a swo
rd. This gives the HP the ability to do most of the moves he or she
wants to with DR modiers of course as long as it's not too outrageo
us (that's the next KS)

NEW KS AREA MARTIAL ART TECHNIQUES SPpow this is simmilar to the spec
ial weapon techniques KS. It allows the HP to learn "Super Manuevers
" which can some^mes resemble heka engendered powers. I divided the
techniques into 5 catagories: punching, kicking, throwing, and defen
sive. these are very similar to the marâl arts systems in Palladiu
ms NSS and AD&D's original Oriental Adventures. Which could be great
places to get ideas for possible manuevers and what not, if not just
watch some Hong Kong moves like Once Upon a Time in China.
Gaining Special Manuevers works the same as normal special technique
s except that you can get one for every ten steep you have, the new m
aneuver though only starts at your original star^ng STEEP though, so
you have to build the subarea up instead of the KA area, the area it
self only allows you to learn new subaraeas. to use a technique you
ofcourse have to make a DR roll. To gain techniques in a certain are
a, you need to already have the appropriate subarea from HTH marâl
arts and your skill in the special technique cannot excede that of yo
ur HTH MA subarea.
warning a lot of these special techniques can get a wee bit powerful
so I suggest strong JM supervision and low access like in OADD. n
ding teachers and what not should be a real pain, because these techn
iques are simmilar to high grade spellcraev.
the techniques I've made so far are:
1.punching: tamashiwari, nerve akack, distance puch, god hand, dim m
ak
2.kicking: exibility/balance, jumping, crushing blow, mul^ple kick

3.grappling: auto-hold, nerve hold, kiatsu
4.throws: auto-throw, mul^ple throw, no touch throw
5.defensive: evasion, missle deecôn, awareness, chi-gung

The explanaôns for all of these would take up a ton of space so if
anybody is interested in them I'll send them later.

I also thought I'd include a vocaôn that uses these skills, this is
the Oriental Monk vocaôn we used in our Chinguese campaign. I rea
lize that there was a Monk vocaôn presented in dangerous Idea #4, b
ut mine was a likle bit more on the spiritual side. The Basic idea
however remains the same.

Vocaôn: I^nerant Monk Spiritual star^ng SEC 1-9
Yoga 24
Philosophy 20
Marâl arts tech 20
HTH marâl arts 16
Mys^cism 16
Apotropaism 16
Metaphysics 16
Mul^versal Planes and Sph 12
Jack of all trades 12

Educaôn 12
Acroba^cs/gymnas^cs 12
Travel 8
Pantheology 8
Endurance 8
Survival 8
Handicravs 8
Inuence 8
Percepôn, Mental 8
Percepôn Physical 8
Foreign language 4
Foreign language 4

Total STEEP 248

re away guys...

Josh D'Andrea
shinsoku@msn.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 19:50:43 -0400
Subject: # of akacks, propelled missile weapons

I nally had a chance to look up the page for this ROF point of contenôn.

Page 224 of the Mythus Handbook, immediately under the heading Number of
Akacks. It says that Bows, xbows, etc. use the ROF # directly from the
weapons tables with no mul^plier due to STEEP.

While I was reviewing the rules I no^ced the entry for hit locaôn damage
mul^pliers wherein it says that the mul^plier is only applied to the rolled
damage, not pluses. Something my group has been doing wrong/dierently
since day one.

Later
Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 21:42:17 -0700
From: Mike Wikek <wikek@SUNTAN.ENG.USF.EDU>
Organizaôn: University of South Florida
Subject: HP Generator, CITY OF ASCALON, and a new Beasâry

I was directed to put forth my quesôns to this list by Mike
Phillips. I shall list all my quesôn, and if you happen to know the
answer ll free to respone via the list or my personal e-mail account.

1. Does any one know who the programmer is for the window based HP
generator found on Mike Phillips' Mythus Web Page?

2. Is there going to be an update to the HP generator sovware?

3. Can one pay a registraôn fee for an update? I would be seriously
interested.

4. Was the CITY OF ASCALON and\or a second Beasâry produced or
published?

5. This is totally o the subject, so pardon me; however, if anyone
knows of a DARK CONSPIRACY character generator, please let me know where
I might nd it.

Thanks again for your help! My E-Mail account:
wikek@suntan.eng.usf.edu

A Fan,
-=+>Mike W.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 00:13:34 -0400
Subject: Re: HP Generator, CITY OF ASCALON, and a new Beasâry

I can only reply to one:

>4. Was the CITY OF ASCALON and\or a second Beasâry produced or
>published?

No and no. However, Dave Newton published his notes for the Phaeree besâry
and they are available on Mike Phillip's Web page. As for Ascalon, I've
talked to Loren about Ascalon. He s^ll has it and might be interested in
selling it to us (us being the readers of MYTHUS-L), though he would prefer
to sell it to a commercial publisher. If he did sell it to us, it would take
him ^me to remove all the material pertaining to copyrights held by TSR,
which would take a couple of months or more.

Those in the group interested in contribu^ng to the "Free Ascalon" fund are
respecully requested to contact me privately by e-mail. I'm already
gathering funds on my own with which to make an oer to Loren, so any
willing souls who wish to help are gleefully accepted.

Of course, how would it be published? Who would get it? Who would own it?
All these need to be decided and are open to suggesôns. In par^cular,
those who want to keep Mythus alive (or Unalive, as the case may be) are
exhorted to shower me with their comments, thoughts, opinions, and even

ames (I'm cold! Toast me!).

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 21:56:35 -0700
In-Reply-To: <321D36A9.427B@suntan.eng.usf.edu>

On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, Mike Wikek wrote:

> I was directed to put forth my quesôns to this list by Mike
> Phillips. I shall list all my quesôn, and if you happen to know the
> answer ll free to respone via the list or my personal e-mail account.
>
> 1. Does any one know who the programmer is for the window based HP
> generator found on Mike Phillips' Mythus Web Page?
>
> 2. Is there going to be an update to the HP generator sovware?
>
I also would like to know who the programmer for the HP generator is.
I would to get my hands on the source code, I've encountered _alot_ of
bugs and would like to see what I can do for it.
So mr/miss/what-ever come out and reveal yourself... You deserve the
credit!

Kevin
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 04:43:25 -0400

At 09:42 PM 8/22/96 -0700, you wrote:
>I was directed to put forth my quesôns to this list by Mike
>Phillips. I shall list all my quesôn, and if you happen to know the
>answer ll free to respone via the list or my personal e-mail account.
>
>1. Does any one know who the programmer is for the window based HP
>generator found on Mike Phillips' Mythus Web Page?
>
>2. Is there going to be an update to the HP generator sovware?
>
>3. Can one pay a registraôn fee for an update? I would be seriously
>interested.
>
>4. Was the CITY OF ASCALON and\or a second Beasâry produced or

>published?
>
>5. This is totally o the subject, so pardon me; however, if anyone
>knows of a DARK CONSPIRACY character generator, please let me know where
>I might nd it.
>
> Thanks again for your help! My E-Mail account:
>wikek@suntan.eng.usf.edu
>
>A Fan,
> -=+>Mike W.
>
>Well I only have the answer to quesôn 4 but here goes.

The City of Ascalon is completed but was never published. It was not
included in the TSR seklement.

Dave Newton released into public domain his work to date(not complete)
Phaeree Beasâry if you give me an E-mail address I'll send a copy your way
in zipped format.

Good Gaming,
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 10:46:46 +0200

Hi Donald,

At 00:13 23-08-96 -0400, you wrote:

>As for Ascalon, I've
>talked to Loren about Ascalon. He s^ll has it and might be interested in
>selling it to us (us being the readers of MYTHUS-L), though he would prefer
>to sell it to a commercial publisher. If he did sell it to us, it would take
>him ^me to remove all the material pertaining to copyrights held by TSR,
>which would take a couple of months or more.
>
>Those in the group interested in contribu^ng to the "Free Ascalon" fund are
>respecully requested to contact me privately by e-mail. I'm already
>gathering funds on my own with which to make an oer to Loren, so any
>willing souls who wish to help are gleefully accepted.
It all depends on how much Loren wants for Ascalon.
There are ca. 240 listmembers. Gues^mate that half of them would be
willing to pay $10, that would make $1200. Gues^mate that each listmember
knows 1-4 other Mythus adepts. With some luck we could double the number of
people willing to contribute, genera^ng $2400. The quesôn is: will that
be enough.
On the other hand, Loren hasn't done anything (?) with the scenario
in the ^me between the lawsuit and the present, and this way he can make at
least some money for the work he has done. Let's be pragma^c, anything is
beker than nothing. ;)

>Who would own it?
The "Resurrecôn of Mythus Foundaôn". I would suggest that the more
enthousias^c ressurrecôn advocates will be the guardian (or whatever you
call it in English) of the foundaôn.

>Who would get it?
All who pay for it to the "Resurrecôn of Mythus Foundaôn".

>Of course, how would it be published?
Preerably electronically, not printed. This way it is easier to distribute
and at lower costs. Those who want it in printed form could pay much more to
cover costs.

[]

My 0,02 guilders.

Harold Stringer
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 04:55:54 -0400

At 12:13 AM 8/23/96 -0400, you wrote:
>I can only reply to one:
>
>>4. Was the CITY OF ASCALON and\or a second Beasâry produced or
>>published?
>
>No and no. However, Dave Newton published his notes for the Phaeree besâry
>and they are available on Mike Phillip's Web page. As for Ascalon, I've
>talked to Loren about Ascalon. He s^ll has it and might be interested in
>selling it to us (us being the readers of MYTHUS-L), though he would prefer
>to sell it to a commercial publisher. If he did sell it to us, it would take
>him ^me to remove all the material pertaining to copyrights held by TSR,
>which would take a couple of months or more.
>
>Those in the group interested in contribu^ng to the "Free Ascalon" fund are
>respecully requested to contact me privately by e-mail. I'm already
>gathering funds on my own with which to make an oer to Loren, so any
>willing souls who wish to help are gleefully accepted.
>
>Of course, how would it be published? Who would get it? Who would own it?
> All these need to be decided and are open to suggesôns. In par^cular,
>those who want to keep Mythus alive (or Unalive, as the case may be) are
>exhorted to shower me with their comments, thoughts, opinions, and even
>ames (I'm cold! Toast me!).
>
>Don
>
>My two cents worth:

The easiest souluôn to the publishing problem would be to scan the
manuscript and make it available online. As for ownership it seems to me
that a non-prot organizaôn could be set up. I'll address this quesôn
to my Business Law professor and see what he says. I would suggest that the
organizaôn somehow be contractualy obligated upon acquiring the copyright
to City of Ascalon to release it into public domain.

Has Mr. Wiseman even hinted at a gure he would be willing to take? Was
there an amount originally agreed upon between himself and GDW or Omega
Helios etc.?

Good Gaming,
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 04:42:45 -0600


I recieved the check today. I am trying to nd the book in all the boxes I
just moved. I won't cash it un^l I send the book away to guarantee honesty
in our dealings.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 15:33:34 +0300
Subject: Re: Marâl Arts and another monk...
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL08.199608221714490660@msn.com> from "Joshua D'Andrea" at
Aug 22, 96 05:07:54 pm

>
> NEW KS AREA HTH/MARTIAL ARTS PMcap/PNcap this ks works preky much t
> he same way as HTH melee except that it has four sub areas:
> 1. punching
> 2. kicking
> 3. throwing
> 4. grappling
>
> specializing in a subarea is allowed. Since I don't have my books, I
> 've had a lot of problems guring out appropriate damage and akacks
> per CT, but I think that a the basic use of HTH lethal rates for pun
> ching and kicking and non-lethal for throwing and grappling should wo
> rk ne. (if anyone wants to give me a hand, I'd appreciate it)
> Steep in any of these areas gives you the ability to parry other no
> n weapon akacks at MA steep, but not weapon ones like from say a swo
> rd. This gives the HP the ability to do most of the moves he or she
> wants to with DR modiers of course as long as it's not too outrageo
> us (that's the next KS)
>

This makes close-combat K/S area more balanced to Hand Weapons K/S
(I think Hand Weapon K/S is good, but very wide, in comparison to
close-combat K/S.)
Another quesôn is Combat, HTH, Lethal subskills of oriental
weapons. I think those need separate skill area or are added to
other weapons skills. (I think Combat, HTH, Lethal with any of
weapons allowed was quite superior to other weapons due extra
damage and lot of akacks!)

> The explanaôns for all of these would take up a ton of space so if
> anybody is interested in them I'll send them later.
>

I'd love to see those descripôns. But one quesôn rises to my
mind: What if I learn this skill later? What is my star^ng STEEP
for sub-areas? I think it would be beker to give base steep to
all maneuvers known equal to SPPow or MA Techniques STEEP, which
ever is lower?

Quite good work. I think some aspects of Mythus s^ll needs a lot
of rening. The system is quite good, but it has some aws, and
even big ones! (I've tried or at least read many other rules, with
excepôn of AD&D)

Kautsu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 11:16:37 -0400

At 04.43 AM 08-23-96 -0400, you wrote:
>At 09:42 PM 8/22/96 -0700, you wrote:
>>I was directed to put forth my quesôns to this list by Mike
>>Phillips. I shall list all my quesôn, and if you happen to know the
>>answer ll free to respone via the list or my personal e-mail account.
>>
>>1. Does any one know who the programmer is for the window based HP
>>generator found on Mike Phillips' Mythus Web Page?
>>
>>2. Is there going to be an update to the HP generator sovware?
>>
>>3. Can one pay a registraôn fee for an update? I would be seriously
>>interested.
>>
>>4. Was the CITY OF ASCALON and\or a second Beasâry produced or
>>published?
>>
>>5. This is totally o the subject, so pardon me; however, if anyone
>>knows of a DARK CONSPIRACY character generator, please let me know where
>>I might nd it.
>>
>> Thanks again for your help! My E-Mail account:
>>wikek@suntan.eng.usf.edu
>>
>>A Fan,
>> -=+>Mike W.
>>
>>Well I only have the answer to quesôn 4 but here goes.
>
>The City of Ascalon is completed but was never published. It was not
>included in the TSR seklement.
>
>Dave Newton released into public domain his work to date(not complete)
>Phaeree Beasâry if you give me an E-mail address I'll send a copy your way
>in zipped format.
>
>Good Gaming,
>Michael
>
>
Michael

Please send me the Pharee supplement: tauman@earthlink.net

--/Nikodemus
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 23:01:16 UT
Subject: Marâl Arts techniques. Punching

Here is the start of a list of special techniques for the New KS I pr
esented before, Marâl Arts Special techniques, Spiritual SPpow.

1. Tamashiwari- This manuever allows the HP to break wood, stone, ic
e ect with his bare hands. It is a cocentrated akack and thus takes
a CT of preperaôn and then only allows one akack in the next CT.
If a tamashiwari akempt is failed, it's going to HURT, possibly eve
n break the HP's hand. Because the force that was concentrated in th
e HP's puch basically gets sent straight back up your arm instead of
through your target. If used against a living target the blow counts
as a cri^cal hit and does x2 damamge, (normal against heavy armor)

2. Nerve akack- By studying the vital points of the body the MA is
capable of incapacita^ng opponents with a single blow. Stunning Dam
age from this akack is doubled.

3. God Hand- This is a devasta^ng technique, which allows the HP to
channel his ki to a focused point beyond his punch. Like Tamashiwari
, this technique requires a CT of concentraôn before and then only
allows one akack. This blow however does force damage so it totally
ignores an opponents armor, and base damage is triple that of the HP
's normal punches. because of the nature of this punch it does mostl
y internal damage and usually leaves a handprint blood blister on the
target's back, if he was, say punched in the chest. Damamge from th
is akack, will not heal naturally and must be treated by accupunture
or hekacraeving.

4. Dim Mak- This is an advanced form of the Nerve akack and can onl
y be performed during certain ^mes in the lunar cycle, to be determi
nd by the JM. This is the legendary Death Touch. A DR check is of c
ourse required. A moderate DR succes means that the vic^m becomes il
l and slowly weakens over the next month un^l he or she dies. A Har
d check means the vic^m will die within a maker of days. An extrem
e means that the Hp can choose the exact ^me of death anywhere from
that instant to several years in the future. If you have fallen vict
im to a Dim Mak akack the only way to save yourself is to be treated
by an accupunturist with a STEEP of at least 1.5 ^mes that of the M
A's Dim Mak STEEP.
The Dim Mak Does NOT need to be a punch, it can be as likle as a po
ke.

As you can see some of these techiniques can get preky powerful esp
ecially ones like Godhand. So they should be made available only occ
asionaly and then, only in somekind of ladder form. ( you goka learn
tamashiwari before you learn godhand ect)
One idea that I was toying around with, but since I don't have any b
ooks was preky impossible to follow up, was to make this cakegory a
heka genera^ng category and make all of the dierent techniques li
ke spells. Giving them grades and everything. If anyone wants to tr
y it that way, I think it would work just as well.
One more thing that I forgot to menôn in my original post was that
, MA punching and kicking akacks do only 1/2 damage to heavily armor

ed foes ( like the rapier). I can't remember if that was already in
the normal rules or not.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marâl arts weapons thing was brought up... we made Marâl arts we
apons fall into the hand weapons category. I could never gure out
why they were in the HTH lethal category in the rst place. I don't
think that using nunchuka should be any dierent than using a morni
ng star (ball and chain type of course) And basically did away with
the HTH lethal and non-lethal categories by combining them into HTH M
A.
It just happened to be a Chinese adventure but I think that the syst
em works just as well for anybody. If you want to make a wrestler, j
ust take throwing and grappling, while a boxer or whatever would have
more punching. Gladiators and the like might have to go for a more
well rounded dealing of the four. let's face it ancient Roman wrestl
ers were some of the greatest ghters in the world.

In the quesôn about the star^ng steep for techniques if the MA sp
ecial techniques skill is learned later, on... Yes we had it so that
the skill started at zero, this was to kind of seperate the marâl a
r^sts that had prac^ced since child hood from the people who picked
it later on in life.... BUT I think that soluôn you proposed would
work ne too. One of the concepts that I was trying to keep was th
e balance between the physical MA KS and this Spiritual one.

thanks for your interest
have fun
Josh D'Andrea
shinsoku@msn.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 06:40:04 UT
Subject: MA special techniques: Kicks

Here's another category of Maneuvers...
KICKING

1. Flexibility/balance: This gives the MA amazing exiblity and bal
ance. DR checks are neccesary, but a moderate check should allow feat
s such as ^ghtrope walking and what not. Hard feats should allow su
ch things as full out gh^ng on balance beam type material and an e
xtreme check should be reserved for the truly ridiculus feats on bala
nce.
Flexibility allows the MA to do full splits on cue and do high-kicks
at extremely short range, even kicking someone in the face who is ho
lding them in a bearhug from behind.

2. Jumping: This technique is a super version of the Acroba^s skill
so if you don't want any unrealis^c jumps happening in your campaig
n, don't allow this one. The HP can jump an extra two feet on his ve
r^cal for every 10 points of STEEP. the HP also gain a bonus of +1
to his kicking Damage for every 10 STEEP. Jumping kicks made with th
is subarea cause double damage. This technique also allows you to in
stantly stand from a fallen posiôn, by either doin a kip or a break
dance style handstand.

3. Crushing blow- This is a kick version of tamashiwari, if combined
with a ST jump kick the damage is quadrupled!

4. Mul^ple kick- this technique doubles the number of kicks the MA g
ets. this also allows the MA to do mul^ple kicks from a jumping ak
ack. (If anybody watches kung-fu movies, your basic bicylce kick thro
ugh the air and stu.)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, those are the basic kick manuevers I've got on hand. I'll tr
y and post the throws and holds when I have ^me. Till then

Josh D'Andrea
Shinsoku@msn.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 23:43:33 -0400
Subject: Proof of Ghulaz being "Gnoll derived"

I forgot who asked about it, but the Gnoll-Ghulaz connecôn can actually be
conrmed by a Gord the Rogue novel, Dance with Demons.

"They were all Nergel's to command. Beker s^ll, massed just behind them
were other reinforcements: companies of ghouls holding massive hyaenadons,
bakalions of ravening gholes, the trolls of ghoulkind, and nally at the
rearmost posiôn a brigade of tall gnoles, hyena-headed demonlings of no
great power but in numbers sucient enough to be useful. With these were
the ercest of their sort, the Ghulaz...'Yeenoghu's Spawn!' [Nergal] shouted!"

So, I guess basing a Gnoll on the Ghulaz is correct aver all...

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 00:27:28 0000
Organizaôn: University of California, San Diego
Subject: Re: Ascalon

On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, Harold Stringer, Ridascreen-Biopharm B.V. wrote:

[...]
> >Who would own it?
> The "Resurrecôn of Mythus Foundaôn". I would suggest that the more
> enthousias^c ressurrecôn advocates will be the guardian (or whatever you
> call it in English) of the foundaôn.
>
> >Who would get it?
> All who pay for it to the "Resurrecôn of Mythus Foundaôn".
>

Maybe I'm being pessimis^c, but I think giving ownership of Ascalon to
a group may be more of a hassle than anybody wants. I'd suggest that we
entrust it to some worthy individual (EGG, Dave Newton, & Mak Pearson
come to mind) on the condiôn that they release it to the list...or at
least, to all who help pay for it.

> >Of course, how would it be published?
> Preerably electronically, not printed. This way it is easier to distribute
> and at lower costs. Those who want it in printed form could pay much more to
> cover costs.
>

No argument here.

> []
>
> My 0,02 guilders.
>
> Harold Stringer
>

Alan Zabaro
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 10:39:31 -0400
Subject: Web Site Issues

Hi all.

Well, if you guys are wondering where Sean is, he's probably really busy
again, as TSR is nally going ahead with crea^ng an Ocial Web Site.
So, I understand if MMM release queries aren't a high priority.

However--IMO the Mythus-L community needs to discuss opôns. With the
implementaôn of Ocial Web Sites will later come the net enforcement of
unauthorized sites, and I'm preky sure they are serious.

There are three opôns for those who post their web sites to the Internet.

Opôn #1...give them to TSR to place on their web site. Most should be
acceptable with TSR's policy. If they're truly suppor^ng web pages, then
there should be likle problem having "one's own", though there may be
requirements based on how the site is setup. (Organizaôn, Format and the
like).

This is a viable opôn--however, the understandable problem is one's
limited control, and the somewhat hos^le stance many have towards TSR, due
to the whole circumstances surrounding the issue.

Opôn #2: Remove the web site. Naturally, this is the safest legally, but
that precludes the sharing of ideas.

Opôn #3: Choose to combat TSR's legal claims to deriva^ve work, using
disclaimers, claricaôns, etc. This is the hardest road, and it may
require legal recourse. However, there are many shades of gray here, and I
don't think everything is as cut and dried as has been presented elsewhere.

I think we should discuss opôns, etc, before it begins. Are you willing
to contribute work under TSR's net policy? Would you rather keep your work
private? How much protecôn for your work can you retain? It will be
important to think these things through while TSR is implemen^ng their site.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 18:28:33 +0200
Subject: Riding, endurance and Suppor^ve Factors

Hi!
Can anyone |PLEASE| give a few examples of the use of Endurance and
Suppor^ve Factors for Horses? I think that that porôn of the rules is
explained worse then any other.
Akiva E. Esterson
Mevo Modi'im
ISRAEL
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 11:34:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Web Site Issues
In-Reply-To: <3.0b11.32.19960826103926.0069236c@pop.âc.net>

The Web will require a whole new set of copyright laws:

The problem I have with this BULLSHIT is this: I can go make copies,
change rules, create thousands of pages' worth of rules/adventures/
monsters/whatever, for any game I want, and pass them around to all my
friends who game with me, and no one can do a frigging thing about it.

The only dierence I can see is comparing the web site to this is that my
group of friends has expanded to about 200. However, I'm sure not all the
people on this list are interested in all the crap people print out, so I
doubt the number is even that high.

I'm just sick of the whole discussion, and sick of so many akempts to cut
o likle bits of our freedom.

Jesse

(p.s. and don't give me crap about author's rights since I'm not stealing
anything from them, and no one is making a damn cent o any of it)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 12:09:40 -0400
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.93.960826112044.16033A-100000@conciliator.acsu.bualo.edu> from "Jesse
T Gris" at Aug 26,
96 11:34:22 am

> The only dierence I can see is comparing the web site to this is that my
> group of friends has expanded to about 200. However, I'm sure not all the
> people on this list are interested in all the crap people print out, so I
> doubt the number is even that high.

And to top it o, the game isn't supported anymore! I hope they
learned from all of the bad pr they got from going aver the vp sites.
Maybe Sean can act as a buer for us. I mean we've already been knocked
down because of their acôns against GDW, but there's no reason to kick us.

> (p.s. and don't give me crap about author's rights since I'm not stealing
> anything from them, and no one is making a damn cent o any of it)

The only crea^ve rights that are geing trampled on are ours.

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 23:44:37 EDT

>Jesse

>(p.s. and don't give me crap about author's rights since I'm not
>stealing
>anything from them, and no one is making a damn cent o any of it)

Actually I Made about $150K last year o your ideas
alone...........<grin>

Christopher Stainton
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
" Do you really think the Russians would have invaded Afghanistan if
Ronald Regan were President?
Do you really think Third-Rate Military Dictators would laugh at America
and burn our ag in contempt if Ronald Regan were President?
..............................................................Roger
Waters...........................
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:21:41 -0400
From: Muten Roshi <roshi@UMD.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: I need a volunteer...

I am currently going through my mythus page making updates. I
need some help on the magical device part of my page. I have a complete
index of the devices (thanks steve) but I don't have all of the devices.
(Oops.) So, when my program split up the device le into separate
enteries, some of the items weren't there. Your mission let me know
which links don't come up! I'm busy dinking around with other parts of
my page and really don't have the ^me ( or stomach) to go through all of
those device pages. If you are intersted please let me know. These
devices are the creaôns of list members, and I have nally got around
to HTMLizing them. Thanks for any help.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 19:37:53 +0200
From: Jrg Neulist <neulist@STUDENT.UNI-KL.DE>
Subject: Re: I need a volunteer...

Muten Roshi wrote:
> I am currently going through my mythus page making updates. I
> need some help on the magical device part of my page. I have a complete
> index of the devices (thanks steve) but I don't have all of the devices.
> (Oops.) So, when my program split up the device le into separate
> enteries, some of the items weren't there. Your mission let me know
> which links don't come up! I'm busy dinking around with other parts of
> my page and really don't have the ^me ( or stomach) to go through all of
> those device pages. If you are intersted please let me know. These
> devices are the creaôns of list members, and I have nally got around
> to HTMLizing them. Thanks for any help.

I would help you - if I knew where your page is!

- "I read somewhere to learn is to remember
Joerg Neulist: neulist@student.uni-kl.de
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 18:44:33 -0400
Subject: What would you like on the TSR web site?

First of all, my apologies for pos^ng this to several lists....

All right, some of you may recall that back in December I sent out email
(and posted to the .dnd newsgroup) asking for suggesôns about what we
should include on the _real_ TSR web site. Well, I did keep all of those
emails, and have compiled them into the list below. What I want to know
now is ... is there anything else you can think of? What else would you
like to see on the site?

Please reply to me personally, and not to the list, as there are a lot of
people that don't want to wade through a lot of posts on this topic.

Thanks, and here's the list!

<blank> of the month (monster, spell, item, adventure, etc.)

Almanac (allows real^me events to occur)
AOL exclusives (older ones, like the Castle Guide)
Areas planned for each world (so you know what TSR _won't_ be covering)
Bazaar of the Bizarre (user-created, or simply Dragon archives)
Catalog of products (past and current)
Convenôn calendar
Convenôns - what RPGA events they're doing
Convenôns - what TSR people are going
Dragon/Dungeon ar^cles
Email forms for feedback to sta (including Sage Advice)
Errata
FAQs
GIF of Sean ea^ng a Big Mac (thanks, James...)
Graphics libraries
Graphics on the site
Humor (Dragonmirth?)
Image maps of worlds (a la Volo online?)
Indexes to periodicals
Links to other sites
Maps of Dark Sun city-states
Maps of sample dungeons
Maps of worlds
Mirror sites
Newslekers/listservs of ocial info (press releases, etc...)
No graphics on the site
OOP stu (posted)
Ordering info
Out-of-print lists (what is, what isn't)
Portraits of characters (a Who's Who)
Prizes and Contests
RPGA info and les
Rules claricaôns (via narra^ves - "show, don't tell")
Sage Advice & index to Sage Advice
Sovware (databases, etc.)
Stories
Suggesôn boxes for products
Text-only browser support
Timelines of game worlds
Unprinted ar^cles from Dragon/Dungeon (with author's permission)
Upload area
World backgrounds

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 07:56:43 PDT

Subject: Re: Ascalon, Dave's response

>On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, Harold Stringer, Ridascreen-Biopharm B.V. wrote:
>
> Maybe I'm being pessimis^c, but I think giving ownership of Ascalon to
>a group may be more of a hassle than anybody wants. I'd suggest that we
>entrust it to some worthy individual (EGG, Dave Newton, & Mak Pearson
>come to mind) on the condiôn that they release it to the list...or at
>least, to all who help pay for it.
>

As of this summer, I'm going into semi-re^rement - which basically means
I'm out of the gaming industry, excluding any opportuniês that might
come along for free-lance stu that I'm *really* interested in.

So... with no disrespect intended, I decline. Besides, the work, as far
as I'm concerned, should belong to Loren Wiseman.

Dave=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 23:42:31 -0400
Subject: Re: What would you like on the TSR web site?

No graphics on the site? Who said that!? Get a CGI to test for browser
capabilês instead, and provide a text version that way.

How about a SEARCH ENGINE! You've got this huge list of possible thingies,
well, how will someone nd them!

Wesley Miaw wesley@woais.com
World of Ar^sts Internet Services hkp://www.woais.com
71 Middlesex Drive Tel: 518-439-0412
Slingerlands, NY 12159 FAX: 518-439-9722
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 09:59:04 -0400
Subject: Re: What would you like on the TSR web site?

>No graphics on the site?

As the list I posted said, one suggesôn was "No graphics on the site" and
another
was "Graphics on the site." I was just lis^ng the suggesôns I had
received, man....

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 01:16:03 -0700
Subject: Healing & Herbalism

Did someone no^ce a contradicôn about this ? :

On page 274, Mythus rulebook (Healing paragraph) says that a Primary
Healing Rate (accelerated) may be obtained by personas via a successful
Herbalism K/S roll made by a healer. THIS PRIMARY HEALING RATE IS 0.5
POINTS HIGHER THAN THE SECONDARY ONE (applied when no healer's care is
available). You know this.

But on page 187 (Herbalism K/S Area descripôn) says that the rst
thing a herbalist can do is HEALING PHYSICAL DAMAGE AT DOUBLE THE NORMAL
RATE at a "moderate" DR.

IMHO it seems obvious that one of the version is wrong (I don't think
they are simultaneously applicable). Probably the error is on page 187.

Any opinion ? :-)

P.S. I need infos about retrieving the MYTHUS-L archives. Could someone
send me a couple of lines about that, please ? :-))
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 23:16:30 -0700
Subject: Check Out

Time has come for me to leave for a while. I will be back, although I do
not know when(and who knows what form I will be symbio^cally conjoined with
then?? ;) Hopefully MMM and Ascalon will be availible by then.

Adieu.

Venom

Heres the sig. Heh.

Chris Calvert

calvert@ucla.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 17:21:56 -0400
Reply-To: "Randy M. Schoen" <cerebus@sat.net>
From: "Randy M. Schoen" <cerebus@SAT.NET>
Subject: I Hate to Spread Rumours...

...but I have a reliable friend who spoke with Jim Ward on TSR Online @ AOL. Mr. Ward claimed
that there was talk at TSR that, even if Mythus itself isn't revived, Aerth might be. There is
considerable interest in historical fantasy gaming, and outside of Ars Magica's world, Aerth's as
good as it gets.

Whether this ever comes to pass or not... well, who knows? If it does, it might give us hope that
Mythus may also one day be resurrected. TSR isn't the best company in the world, but they've
been doing beker with Planescape (excluding the idio^c wri^ng style and prepubescent slang),
Birthright, and the Tomes series (Night Below & the Rod O' Seven Parts) are the best adventures to
come along since the old days...

FWIW.

Solving for X,
Cerebus
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 17:53:02 EDT
Subject: New Year

Well boys and girls,
I know this list has done this before, Numerous ^mes, but I was
wondering if everyone who runs or plays in a Mythus campaign could say
where they're from so that we, those of us who can't seem to nd a game
(or quality players), might get in touch with someone to game with.
Not to menôn sa^sfying that Mythus
addicôn...........................
Thanks,

Jacksonville, FL
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
..............................................................Roger
Waters
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 18:00:47 -0400

Subject: Re: I Hate to Spread Rumours...
X-To: "Randy M. Schoen" <cerebus@sat.net>

At 05:21 PM 9/2/96 -0400, Randy M. Schoen wrote:
>...but I have a reliable friend who spoke with Jim Ward on TSR Online @
AOL. Mr. Ward claimed
>that there was talk at TSR that, even if Mythus itself isn't revived, Aerth
might be. There is
>considerable interest in historical fantasy gaming, and outside of Ars
Magica's world, Aerth's as
>good as it gets.
>
I suspect it will be AErth alone, adapted for AD&D, if they do support the game.

AErth IS a good world for that. Gary did that well, puing everything
really fantas^c in Phaeree and paralleling AErth aver Earth.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 14:06:55 -0700
Subject: Re: New Year
In-Reply-To: <19960902.180001.2918.3.KappaABZ@juno.com>

Eureka, California
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 10:28:52 +1200
From: Malcolm Bowers <malcolm@ADI.CO.NZ>

>I know this list has done this before, Numerous ^mes, but I was
>wondering if everyone who runs or plays in a Mythus campaign could say
>where they're from so that we, those of us who can't seem to nd a game
>(or quality players), might get in touch with someone to game with.
>Not to menôn sa^sfying that Mythus addicôn...

Hi folks! I'm a new subscriber, s^ll working my way through the archives :)
I'll be JMing a new campaign very shortly (aver too long an absence from
RPGs), and will coerce/convert/seduce local players at that point...

Local for me is Dunedin, New Zealand.

Malcolm
malcolm@adi.co.nz (Malcolm Bowers)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 21:06:38 -0700
Subject: Independent Role Playing Gamers Associaôn

I was wondering if such an oragnizaôn exist. If one does not I fully
intend to start one. The RPGA(sponsored by TSR) is the largest but all of
the events they support are for TSR games.(understandably so)

I however, want to join/form an organizaôn that is all
inclusive(including TSR RP gamers) that oer a variety of games at
convenôns.

The organizaôn would also include a contact sheet for players to nd
other players.(for those who wished to be listed)

In ^me IRPGA could sponsor convenôns where all companies who wished to
be could be equally represented.

If you are aware of such an organizaôn please let me know.

If you wish to join such an organizaôn please E-mail me your E-mail
and/or mailing address(if only E-mail include what city and state
you are in),what games you play,if you are a player or DM/GM,and if you
wish to be listed on a contact sheet.

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 11:27:58 IDT
From: Etay Schi <chief@POP.INFOLINK.NET.IL>
Subject: The RPG organizaôn
X-To: Michael John Weaver <aikido@CRIS.COM>

Hi,

I think the idea of an organizaôn like that is great, yet I don't know of any.
I play "Role-Master" and I GM in "Cyber-Punk 2020", and I would realy like
to have some way of connec^ng with other players.
I would wish to be listed on a contect sheet.

E-tay Schi,
Tel-Aviv, Israel.

chief@infolink.net.il
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 11:33:37 IDT
From: "Etay Schi by way of chief@pop.infolink.net.il Etay Schi"
<chief@POP.INFOLINK.NET.IL>

Hi all, I'm a new subscriber, not realy a MYTHUS player but a keen RPG
player who wants to be involved in any kind of RPGs interacôns.

I'm from Tel-Aviv, Israel.

E-tay
chief@infolink.net.il (E-tay Schi)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 07:39:27 EDT
Subject: Re: Independent Role Playing Gamers Associaôn

Perhaps you should use some resources already available. I know of a few
RPG clubs/groups in my area (orida) alone, and I am sure they are
everywhere else in the US (and the world) Maybe geing names and
addresses of those and oering them to join would be easier than trying
to track down each and every gamer in the
world...........................................
just a thought

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
..............................................................Roger
Waters
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 07:45:57 +0000

On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, Christopher R Stainton wrote:

> I know this list has done this before, Numerous ^mes, but I was
> wondering if everyone who runs or plays in a Mythus campaign could say
> where they're from so that we, those of us who can't seem to nd a game
> (or quality players), might get in touch with someone to game with.
> Not to menôn sa^sfying that Mythus
> addicôn...........................

As a reminder (since I haven't hyped my set of pages in a while), there
is a Mythus "Classieds" secôn at:

hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/gamers/

Okay, it doesn't have *all* of us, but that's because y'all haven't sent
me stu to put in it! (Except those of you who did ;-) )

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 11:15:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Riding, endurance and Suppor^ve Factors

> Hi!
> Can anyone |PLEASE| give a few examples of the use of Endurance and
>Suppor^ve Factors for Horses? I think that that porôn of the rules is
>explained worse then any other.
> Akiva E. Esterson
> Mevo Modi'im
> ISRAEL
>
I asked this quesôn some ^me ago and got no response from the list. Am I
to asuume this means that no one knows how this works, or that my message
was not distributed?

If the former, I think I'll reread the rules and see if I can't clarify,
rewrite them...

Oh yes, I just ran a adventure a few days ago that was quite a sucsess. I
may type it up and post it. Anyone interested? (it's sorta a bit
dectec^ve-style, with lots of opportunity for roleplaying and a bit of
combat at the end)

Chris

BTW, I'm from Alexandria, Ontario, Canada
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 17:46:49 +0200

Subject: Re: Riding, endurance and Suppor^ve Factors

Chris Dion wrote:
>
> > Hi!
> > Can anyone |PLEASE| give a few examples of the use of Endurance and
> >Suppor^ve Factors for Horses? I think that that porôn of the rules is
> >explained worse then any other.
> >
> I asked this quesôn some ^me ago and got no response from the list. Am I
> to asuume this means that no one knows how this works, or that my message
> was not distributed?

I think it means, that no one knows it, as Akiva's request was not
answered, too...

> Oh yes, I just ran a adventure a few days ago that was quite a sucsess. I
> may type it up and post it. Anyone interested? (it's sorta a bit
> dectec^ve-style, with lots of opportunity for roleplaying and a bit of
> combat at the end)
I am always interested in adventures. My JM is always VERY happy when I
can run an adventure or two!

Joerg from Kaiserslautern, Germany
- "I read somewhere to learn is to remember
Joerg Neulist: neulist@student.uni-kl.de
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 13:13:59 -0400
Subject: Update on electronic MMM

OK, here is a quote from my boss, David Wise:

The present and future status of Dangerous Journeys materials is a
maker of some debate within the walls of TSR. As we are unsure of
what we are going to do with the line, we are not willing to release
any of it to the public, on line or otherwise. Your interest in seeing
Mythus Masters on line will be added to the discussion, but the maker
is not as simple as it might seem to someone outside the company.
Please pardon our re^cence, and please refrain from pos^ng Dangerous
Journeys materials on line.

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:25:00 -0500
X-To: Christopher R Stainton <kappaabz@JUNO.COM>

Omaha Nebraska baby!!

Come Get Some!!

Wayne "what would H.P. Lovecrav do in this situaôn" Westphalen

---------From: Christopher R Stainton
Subject: New Year
Date: Monday, September 02, 1996 4:53PM

Well boys and girls,
I know this list has done this before, Numerous ^mes, but I was
wondering if everyone who runs or plays in a Mythus campaign could say
where they're from so that we, those of us who can't seem to nd a game
(or quality players), might get in touch with someone to game with.
Not to menôn sa^sfying that Mythus
addicôn...........................
Thanks,

Jacksonville, FL
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
..............................................................Roger
Waters
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 13:51:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Update on electronic MMM

>OK, here is a quote from my boss, David Wise:

>
>The present and future status of Dangerous Journeys materials is a
>maker of some debate within the walls of TSR. As we are unsure of
>what we are going to do with the line, we are not willing to release
>any of it to the public, on line or otherwise. Your interest in seeing
>Mythus Masters on line will be added to the discussion, but the maker
>is not as simple as it might seem to someone outside the company.
>Please pardon our re^cence, and please refrain from pos^ng Dangerous
>Journeys materials on line.
>
Hmm...can't say I didn't expect this.

I'm not privy to the terms between Gygax/Trigee and TSR, but someone who
wasn't Gary revealed at least one thing to me, one term. I suspect that
this term, among others unknown to me, is what's causing the problem. (Some
at TSR must feel it would be akin to unleashing Tharizdun).

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:34:49 -0700

Hello !

I'm wondering if there is anyone from ITALY on the list ..

Giuliano < Dfron > Babini
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:04:00 -0500
X-To: Sean K Reynolds <TSRInc@AOL.COM>

>OK, here is a quote from my boss, David Wise:
>
>The present and future status of Dangerous Journeys materials is a
>maker of some debate within the walls of TSR. As we are unsure of
>what we are going to do with the line, we are not willing to release
>any of it to the public, on line or otherwise. Your interest in seeing
>Please pardon our re^cence, and please refrain from pos^ng Dangerous
>Journeys materials on line.

Oh yeah...this sounds like another item to be added to the list of
"things that are fair". Forgive me if I seem a bit thick, but what
exactly does "please refrain from pos^ng Dangerous Journeys material on
line." mean? Sounds like another akempt by T$R to crush any fun that
people might be having with a REAL game system.

Oh and, BTW, I ain't goin' out like that.

Refrain from pos^ng THIS!

Wayne Westphalen
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:29:45 -0400

>Forgive me if I seem a bit thick, but what
>exactly does "please refrain from pos^ng Dangerous Journeys material on
>line." mean?

Insert an "ocial" in between "pos^ng" and "Dangerous Journeys."

Beker? In other words, please don't upload or post the MMM or
other ocial books. Feel free to con^nue doing your homebrew
stu, but don't go uploading ocial material un^l this
maker has been resolved.

Please note that I am on DIGEST mode, and I won't seen any responses
un^l this evening. I got Wayne's response because he cc:'d me on it.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:27:56 EDT


ok, since most of us can grasp the concepts in Dangerous Journeys, this
means we're not idiots. Make us smart, tell us why this isn't "so
simple".
Just a request.........................

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
..............................................................Roger
Waters
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:58:55 -0400
Subject: No

Sheesh--I knew I'd get E-Mail on this.

People, no oense meant, but I'm not going to reveal what I know. That
would violate my moral and ethical codes. I said I "wouldn't let it out".
That promise will remain. I learned a long ^me ago what one's word is worth.

The only reason I've hinted to this is to let you guys know that this is not
a simple maker, and that TSR no^ce is not simple corporate BS--well, it is
sort-of typical BS, but there's an actual meaning to it, not just the
typical runaround. I gure at the very least you should know that.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:32:00 -0500

>>Forgive me if I seem a bit thick, but what
>>exactly does "please refrain from pos^ng Dangerous Journeys material on
>>line." mean?
>
>
>Insert an "ocial" in between "pos^ng" and "Dangerous Journeys."
>
>Beker? In other words, please don't upload or post the MMM or
>other ocial books. Feel free to con^nue doing your homebrew

>stu, but don't go uploading ocial material un^l this
>maker has been resolved.
>
>Please note that I am on DIGEST mode, and I won't seen any responses
>un^l this evening. I got Wayne's response because he cc:'d me on it.
> ->Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator

Ok...that's beker. But I s^ll have this very bad feeling...as if
something very ugly is going to happen in the near future.

I believe that if someone were going to upload "ocial" Dangerous
Journeys
material they would have done it by now.

Wayne Westphalen
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:15:22 -0400

At 07:39 AM 9/3/96 EDT, you wrote:
>Perhaps you should use some resources already available. I know of a few
>RPG clubs/groups in my area (orida) alone, and I am sure they are
>everywhere else in the US (and the world) Maybe geing names and
>addresses of those and oering them to join would be easier than trying
>to track down each and every gamer in the
>world...........................................
>just a thought
>
>(MJW)
>Unfortunately I am unaware of any naônal(much less internaônal) RPG
organizaôn that is independent. The largest RPG organizaôn is RPGA which
is organized by TSR and supports TSR games. You will nd that many clubs on
a local level are also TSR backed. For instance there is a club in Houston
called ARGH(Associaôn of Role Playing Gamers Houston) which is part of the
RPGA network.

There is also to the best of my knowledge no large organizaôn that
provides contact sheets for players. I have also not seen any organizaôn
that works toward trying to get all RPG's equally represented at gaming
convenôns.

I encourage people to join local gaming clubs and organizaôns that support
their interest. What I envision is not a subs^tute for your local gaming
club but an enhancement to it so those that don't know about it can nd it
and join.
>
The reason I posted to this list is because Mythus is an unsupported game
system that could use this type of support. I also no^ced that a great many
Mythus players incorporated informaôn from other RPG's. Thus, it would
seem a great many Mythus players also play,have played,are willing to play,
other RPG's.

I do not intend to exclude players of TSR games or the players of any other
games whose companies ac^vely support events for the games. This
organizaôn would simply be independent of those companies inuence.

On a nal note concerning u^lizing resources already out there. I would
encourage everyone to take advantage of Mike Philip's Mythus web page and
place a classied ad for players or JM(whatever your looking for). I would
also encourage those lucky few, who have a JM and enough players to meet on
a regular schedule to play Mythus, to go ahead and post and accept one more
player into the group so that the Mythus game can con^nue to grow.

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 21:32:53 -0400
From: Thomas Hammerschmidt <Havatar@AOL.COM>


<< The RPGA(sponsored by TSR) is the largest but all of
the events they support are for TSR games.(understandably so) >>

Ummmm, not true. While of course most smaller cons concentrate on the events
that can seat many players, the RPGA oers events in many non-TSR systems.
Including Call of Cthulhu, Torg, Star Wars, Paranoia, Shadowrun, Earthdawn,
TimeMaster, Dark Conspiracy, Runequest, Teenagers from Outerspace Champions,
Cyberpunk, Chill/Mayfair, Traveller, and Ars Magica. There's even a
reference to Dangerous Journeys in the Available Tournament list, but I'm
told it's not available.:) I'm also hearing rumors of a lot of systems
popping up in the next year in RPGA events that would surprise you.

Anyway, if the cons you go to only have AD&D or TSR product RPGA events, talk
to the con organizers. They pick what events they'll run. RPGA HQ has lots
of events siing on the shelf collec^ng dust because no one asks for events
in those systems. If you don't tell the organizers that you want them, they
don't see a market and don't get them.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 22:00:10 -0400

Sean
Thanks a lot for clarifying the "ocial" part of it. That makes sense
to me... :)

Jesse
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 23:08:58 -0400

<< Do you really think the Russians would have invaded Afghanistan if
..............................................................Roger
Waters >>

I am from the Hudson valley but now live in Washington, DC, US of A (sorta,
since DC isn't a state). Reagan, Afghans and Tin-Pots--which one of these is
not like the other?

Tim Francis
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 00:11:06 -0400
Subject: Epic of Aerth & Besâry

Hey everybody,
I saw The Epic of Aerth and the Mythus Besâry for sale the other day. If
anyone is interested I could pick them up for you. Drop me a private reply.

Jason
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 00:17:27 -0400


<< < Do you really think the Russians would have invaded Afghanistan if
..............................................................Roger
Waters >>

I am from the Hudson valley but now live in Washington, DC, US of A (sorta,
since DC isn't a state). Reagan, Afghans and Tin-Pots--which one of these
is
not like the other?

Tim Francis

>>
The last ^me I checked this was a gaming list...I hate discussing
poli^cs...I dislike haveing the opinions of other broadcast at me ...save
the sa^re for a poli^cal mailing list please...

Bill Helm
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 03:34:37 -0400

At 09:32 PM 9/3/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
><< The RPGA(sponsored by TSR) is the largest but all of
> the events they support are for TSR games.(understandably so) >>
>
>
>Ummmm, not true.

(MJW)
I stand corrected.

While of course most smaller cons concentrate on the events
>that can seat many players,

the RPGA oers events in many non-TSR systems.
> Including Call of Cthulhu, Torg, Star Wars, Paranoia, Shadowrun, Earthdawn,
>TimeMaster, Dark Conspiracy, Runequest, Teenagers from Outerspace Champions,
>Cyberpunk, Chill/Mayfair, Traveller, and Ars Magica. There's even a
>reference to Dangerous Journeys in the Available Tournament list, but I'm

>told it's not available.:) I'm also hearing rumors of a lot of systems
>popping up in the next year in RPGA events that would surprise you.

(MJW)
Would you please provide that list to this mailing list? I would like to
know where such gaming cons are being held.
>
>Anyway, if the cons you go to only have AD&D or TSR product RPGA events, talk
>to the con organizers. They pick what events they'll run.

(MJW)
In this par^cular case it was ARGH (Associaôn of Role Playing Gamers
Houston),part of the RPGA, who decided to run all TSR games not the con. It
was a room that ARGH reserved for the con to run games.

RPGA HQ has lots
>of events siing on the shelf collec^ng dust because no one asks for events
>in those systems. If you don't tell the organizers that you want them, they
>don't see a market and don't get them.

(MJW)
While live acôn Vampire was provided by the con the Vampire RPG was not.
The author of Wraith was the guest speaker and some people got to play with
him(those slots lled up fast. However, Wraith was not available to play
anywhere else. It is rather hard to see how RPGA would not be aware that
there is a market for Vampire(known as the 2nd most popular RPG of all ^me)
or for the rest of the White Wolf system.
>
>Tom,

(MJW)
I stand corrected. Perhaps it would be beker to say that at ^mes RPGA
focuses on TSR games. For instance at Nancon in Houston Texas the two RPG
tournaments were AD&D open and AD&D team. This is all ne as a con should
host what is popular. However, the non tournament events hosted by ARGH(part
of the RPGA) were all AD&D games(though dierent genres). For instance ARGH
chose to host Mask of the Red Death(AD&D) instead of Wraith(the guest
speaker) or VAmpire(oered live acôn). SO they had to know interest
existed in those. Werewolf was not to be found. None of the games you
laundry listed above were oered. I would realy like a copy of that
con/tournament list.

Despite the oerings of non TSR games I nd it hard to believe that TSR(or
any other gaming company) could actually want a fair representaôn of all
RPG's at convenôns. That is why I am proposing a Independent RPG
Associaôn. I apologize to the RPGA for any misrepresentaôn on my part.

Sincerely,
Michael John Weaver
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 03:50:33 +0100
From: Tom Harrison <sponge2@AIRMAIL.NET>

>>Anyway, if the cons you go to only have AD&D or TSR product RPGA events, talk
>>to the con organizers. They pick what events they'll run.
>
>(MJW)
>In this par^cular case it was ARGH (Associaôn of Role Playing Gamers
>Houston),part of the RPGA, who decided to run all TSR games not the con. It
>was a room that ARGH reserved for the con to run games.
>

I used to be a member of ARGH!, and s^ll keep in touch with a few people
close to the organizaôn. ARGH! seems par^cularly stuck on Living City
rounds. Besides, if you've ever been to MicroCon, you know that people
only show up for ve things: Magic, WoD, Bakletech, Warhammer, and AD&D.
I learned this the hard way aver trying to run games in ARIA, Darkurthe
Legends, Castle Falkenstein, and others. No such luck.

> RPGA HQ has lots
>>of events siing on the shelf collec^ng dust because no one asks for events
>>in those systems. If you don't tell the organizers that you want them, they
>>don't see a market and don't get them.
>
>(MJW)
>While live acôn Vampire was provided by the con the Vampire RPG was not.
>The author of Wraith was the guest speaker and some people got to play with
>him(those slots lled up fast. However, Wraith was not available to play
>anywhere else. It is rather hard to see how RPGA would not be aware that
>there is a market for Vampire(known as the 2nd most popular RPG of all ^me)
>or for the rest of the White Wolf system.
>>

Hmm. This sounds like NanCon. I was there a few ^mes. Checked out the
dealers room and worked on my Greyhawk collecôn. Didn't play anything
though. I'm surprised there was no Vampire game.

>>Tom,
>
>(MJW)
>I stand corrected. Perhaps it would be beker to say that at ^mes RPGA
>focuses on TSR games. For instance at Nancon in Houston Texas the two RPG
>tournaments were AD&D open and AD&D team. This is all ne as a con should
>host what is popular. However, the non tournament events hosted by ARGH(part
>of the RPGA) were all AD&D games(though dierent genres). For instance ARGH
>chose to host Mask of the Red Death(AD&D) instead of Wraith(the guest
>speaker) or VAmpire(oered live acôn). SO they had to know interest
>existed in those. Werewolf was not to be found. None of the games you
>laundry listed above were oered. I would realy like a copy of that
>con/tournament list.
>
ARGH has a policy not to run WoD games. Some of their members have found
aspects of those games oensive, so they try to keep their hands clean.

>Despite the oerings of non TSR games I nd it hard to believe that TSR(or
>any other gaming company) could actually want a fair representaôn of all
>RPG's at convenôns. That is why I am proposing a Independent RPG
>Associaôn. I apologize to the RPGA for any misrepresentaôn on my part.
>

If that's the case, Mike, you have to rely on open gaming. It sucks, I
know, but its the only way I've goken people at Cons to try anything new.

>Sincerely,
>>
Tom

Food for thought:

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:43:59 EDT

>>ARGH has a policy not to run WoD games. Some of their members have
found
aspects of those games oensive, so they try to keep their hands clean.

Forgive my insolence, master. WoD? worlds of Darkness?
is that right?

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
..............................................................Roger
Waters
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:43:59 EDT


On Wed, 4 Sep 1996 00:17:27 -0400 William A Helm <CHAINMAIL@AOL.COM>
writes:
>
><< < Do you really think the Russians would have invaded Afghanistan
>if
> Ronald Regan were President?
> Do you really think Third-Rate Military Dictators would laugh at
>America
> and burn our ag in contempt if Ronald Regan were President?
> ..............................................................Roger
> Waters >>
>
> I am from the Hudson valley but now live in Washington, DC, US of A
>(sorta,
> since DC isn't a state). Reagan, Afghans and Tin-Pots--which one of
>these
>is
> not like the other?
>
> Tim Francis
>
> >>
>The last ^me I checked this was a gaming list...I hate discussing
>poli^cs...I dislike haveing the opinions of other broadcast at me
>...save
>the sa^re for a poli^cal mailing list please...
>
>Bill Helm
>
This IS a gaming list, and that IS my likle signature tag, and it IS
from a song ( Roger WatersWAS the bass player and writer for the
majority of Pink Floyd's material.......).
I think people need to lighten up and get with the program. Perhaps I'll
change my tag, and perhaps T$R will start being more concern with product
quality over protability, and perhaps Hell will freeze over.
But................ifwe want to start on
politcs.............................
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
..............................................................Roger
Waters
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:11:33 -0400
X-To: wwestphalen@radisson.com

>I believe that if someone were going to upload "ocial" Dangerous
>Journeys material they would have done it by now.

This was in response to a request of being able to upload the
(hard-to-nd) Mythus Masters Magazines.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:39:00 -0500

>>I believe that if someone were going to upload "ocial" Dangerous
>>Journeys material they would have done it by now.
>
>This was in response to a request of being able to upload the
>(hard-to-nd) Mythus Masters Magazines.

Really? Like I said...I think if someone were going to upload the MMM
to the web or the list they would have done it LONG ago. But thanks for
telling us not to.

Wayne Westphalen
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:00:07 -0400

>Really? Like I said...I think if someone were going to upload the MMM
>to the web or the list they would have done it LONG ago.

I agree. Or, at least, I like to think so. There are fringe people
in every group, but the Mythus list doesn't seem to have that sort
of people.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 18:21:23 -0400
Subject: Test

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 22:15:17 -0700
Subject: Healing & Herbalism (REPOSTED)

Did someone no^ce a contradicôn about this ? :

On page 274, Mythus rulebook (Healing paragraph) says that a Primary
Healing Rate (accelerated) may be obtained by personas via a successful
Herbalism K/S roll made by a healer. THIS PRIMARY HEALING RATE IS 0.5
POINTS HIGHER THAN THE SECONDARY ONE (applied when no healer's care is
available). You know this.

But on page 187 (Herbalism K/S Area descripôn) says that the rst
thing a herbalist can do is HEALING PHYSICAL DAMAGE AT DOUBLE THE NORMAL
RATE at a "moderate" DR.

IMHO it seems obvious that one of the version is wrong (I don't think
they are simultaneously applicable). Probably the error is on page 187.

Any opinion ? :-)

dfRON
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:48:50 -0400
Subject: Subscribe?

I have a Mythus fan who wants to subscribe to this mailing list.
Is this a listserv, a majordomo, or what?

=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 20:37:55 -0400

The RPGA will sancôn just about anything that meets their ethics
guidelines, that is, TSR's ethic guidelines. Before you give up at that
statement there have been a number of events over the pass two years or so
that probably would not have been considered within the guidelines 4 years
ago. The new people in charge at HQ seem to allow a bigger range on that.

There will be a World of Darkness event available from the RPGA in the
future. Vampire if I recall right but I'm not certain I recall right. I
think it'll debut at next years GENCON, but I am working from memory.

Here's the trick. RPGA HQ will only sancôn events based on TSR product.
To get non-TSR product sancôned by the RPGA takes the cooperaôn of
someone at that publisher. HQ cannot adequately know the details of all game
systems available to check for errors in mechanics, etc. The RPGA has now
existed long enough that it has members at almost every game company and this
is making it easier to get cooperaôn from those other companies. It is
also my understanding that it is HQ's intent to open up as many of these
channels as possible.

But that doesn't mean that every con will have them. You have to convince
the con organizers (or the tournament organizers) that you will play in RPGA
events of that system. Remember, if they get a Star Wars module, they may
seat a handful of tables while an AD&D event might sit ten while a Living
City event might seat 20. Where do you think the con organizer is going to
put their resources? There are many in the RPGA who would agree with me that
Living City has become a case of the tail wagging the dog, but I can't argue
with the fact that if you run an LC event, you can seat an aweful lot of
tables. So what happens is that small cons put their resources into a few
things that they know will generate enough players. Only really large cons
can aord to put resources into systems that don't draw as much interest. I
used to coordinate the RPGA's Amazing Engine event at GENCON. At a con with
20,000+ people we could manage to seat maybe six tables during the course of
the con. At a con just half that size, we wouldn't have been able to put
enough people together at the same ^me and place to seat any tables.

In short, you have to convince the con organizers that there will be enough
people to seat the tables. If you don't, they won't run it.

Tom
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 16:10:44 -0500
Subject: Quesôns on the prime

hello all
well the list is kinda qiuet, so I thought I would throw in a call for help.
I am considering running a modied mythus prime campaign. I just cant
get my players to get into mythus (fools!) so i gure i can ween them into it.
I am at the early stage of doing this, and the only thing I have done so
far is taking the traits and spliing them into the categories and
ignoring the akributes. That seems to be the biggest problem when I have
tried running mythus games ( PMcap, huh???).
My quesôn is, does anyone have any expeirence doing this? Has it
worked? And what other things have they done to create a sort of souped
up mythus prime? I have perused Mike's stu on vocaôns et al, and I
plan on using parts of it. (though I cant seem to get to his web site
this weekend. His and mak's.) And what about beasês?
So how many of you run prime or adapted prime games? Do they worked? Or
have they failed? And am I was^ng my ^me and should I just bend my
players scrawny likle arms un^l they snap and force them into enlightenment?
thanks.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 23:59:32 -0500

In addiônal resopnce:

><< The RPGA(sponsored by TSR) is the largest but all of
> the events they support are for TSR games.(understandably so) >>
>
>
>Ummmm, not true. While of course most smaller cons concentrate on the events
>that can seat many players, the RPGA oers events in many non-TSR systems.
> Including Call of Cthulhu, Torg, Star Wars, Paranoia, Shadowrun, Earthdawn,
>TimeMaster, Dark Conspiracy, Runequest, Teenagers from Outerspace Champions,
>Cyberpunk, Chill/Mayfair, Traveller, and Ars Magica. There's even a
>reference to Dangerous Journeys in the Available Tournament list, but I'm
>told it's not available.:) I'm also hearing rumors of a lot of systems
>popping up in the next year in RPGA events that would surprise you.
>
>Anyway, if the cons you go to only have AD&D or TSR product RPGA events, talk
>to the con organizers. They pick what events they'll run. RPGA HQ has lots
>of events siing on the shelf collec^ng dust because no one asks for events
>in those systems. If you don't tell the organizers that you want them, they
>don't see a market and don't get them.

>
Not only this, but TSR is not making DMing a viable opôn at convenôns
like Gen Con or Winter Fantacy. At this ^me Game Mastering is not at all
Protable. You must dedicate 3 slots (12 hours) to running their events
and then you get a $20 discount. Figure your math, but it sounds preky
poor to me. Ina addôn, any material you write becomes the property of
TSR. Same deal on the $20, but now at least 6 people must show to each
event. You doe get comensated $1 a person though. (Ithink) But that check
usually doesn't show up for at least 6-9 months aver the con. *Great*
insen^ve! (much sarcasm)

For many years we have run events, but it has simply become too expensive.

I think it is far more adventageous to run your own adventures in homes,
libraries, or other convenôns. Leave TSR and RPGA out of it. IMHO.

AJ
(Eau CLaire WI, La Crosse WI, and the higher Plane of Arcadia.)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 22:53:56 -0400
Subject: Unhallowed

Does anyone have an overview/outline of what was/is contained in the
Unhallowed rules? Any chance of this puppy seeing the light of day?

I mean, Cthulhu is nice, but imagine Call of Cthulhu with the Dangerous
Journeys rules...I think I just wet myself!!

Or, if Unhallowed is a no-go, how about some discussion about rules
adaptaôns from Mythus genre to a modern one created by us...the few...the
proud...the Mythus players.

Wayne "The Dark Goat of the Wood with a Thousand Young" Westphalen
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:58:11 +0000

I know of a new independent company that might help - at the moment
all their resources are in producôn of their new game let me know
and I will see about geing in touh with the members. It might mean
that we pay them to have pay them for the pblicaôn of a
newsleker

wildcat@prysm.net

Keeper of the Bakletech Mailing List - email btech@prysm.net to subsribe
"I am Albion, Herne's son is my master. I will not harm him" - [ROS]
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 18:32:32 -0400


<< This IS a gaming list, and that IS my likle signature tag, and it IS
from a song ( Roger WatersWAS the bass player and writer for the
majority of Pink Floyd's material.......).
I think people need to lighten up and get with the program. Perhaps I'll
change my tag, and perhaps T$R will start being more concern with product
quality over protability, and perhaps Hell will freeze over.
But................ifwe want to start on
politcs.............................
Christopher Stainton >>

I was refering to the response to your tag...not your tag...
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 18:05:50 -0400
Subject: Adventure

I ran this adventure twice for two groups of three players, all playing
new HP s. It is fairly
easy to have HP s of diering SEC par^cipate because of the nature of
the scenario (one
was a DeMancia guard, another a farmer...). It was run in a low magick
world, meaning
that Cas^ngs and magickal items are not common, used rarely by those
who are able and
that magick in general is looked on with suspicion by the populace as a
whole. If this type
of seing is dierent than your own, some reworking of events may be
necessary to
account for such heak-use (especially divinaôn s and the like).

Note: This is all rather point form, I hope it is clear enough to be
usable.

CHARACTERS

Lord Marcus DeMancia: Is lord of Gunston and the surrounding lands. He
is a fairly
good ruler, but has a very bad temper (which has lead to harsh judgments
at ^mes) and is
quite vain. His wife Gweven is therefore called to mediate and make
decisions during his
numerous spells .

Lady Gweven DeMancia: Lady of the DeMancia family and Marcus wife.
She is sov
spoken, thoughul and capable, as a ruler and wife. She is the only
person that is able to
calm Marcus when he is angry.

Lady Alecia DeMancia: Is the DeMancia s daughter. She is much like her
mother, sov
spoken and quite beau^ful, all the DeMancias having long, raven dark
hair. However,
she is strong willed and this has been leading to arguments between her
and her father.
She has just turned 19.

Hienun Sêner: Is Gunston s apothecary and one of the few wielders of
Heka in the
town. He is in his late thirês and none too wise despite his years.
His love (or rather
infatuaôn) for Alecia only clouds his judgment more...

Alfred VonKurik: Is Gunston s priest of Phoenix (a god in my campaign,
he is Lord of
the Empyrial plane, god of jus^ce, law, order and the renewal aspects
of re). This man is
a proud member of his faith with a strong will and personality. He
advises Marcus in
court and knows much about the inner workings of the DeMancia family.

Guntag Bokledown: Gunston s sheri. He is not a talka^ve man and is
rather gru when
he does. His is a good sheri and is loyal to Marcus.

Elric Goodburry: Lord Marcus s servant. He is responsible for wai^ng
on the Lord
(including serving his drinks). He is shy and easily cowed, a result of
being in his Marcus
presence for too long.

Grundle Goodburry: Elric s mother, a large, strong willed, no-nonsense,

woman. She is
present during Elric s interrogaôn and will allow no one to harm her
boy.

Gundar Hoehand, Travin Evermead, Brethtur Goodburry: See Rumors, below.

Spirit: This malevolent spirit is constantly making trouble for the
people of Gunston.
Although too weak to possess those with souls, it can cause no end of
mischief (it is
capable of moving small to medium sized objects) The power of this
spirit can be
modied to suit the HP s ability. It cannot change into parâl or
full manifestaôn.

LEADING EVENTS

1 month ago:

Lord Marcus DeMancia hires Hienun Sêner to perform various, minor
operaôns/enchantment about the manor. In secret, he asks Hienun to
magickally replace
his thinning hair and alchemically improve his failing looks.

Hienun meets Lady Alecia, Marcus daughter and becomes infatuated with
her. He
concocts perfume and oils for her, giving them as givs. She receives
him with curious
interest but does not seriously consider a relaônship. Marcus and his
wife, Lady
Gweven, no^ce his infatuaôn, but say likle.

Hienun s magick fails (his new hair falls out, see Alter Hair Properês
Spell pg. 161 MM),
and Lord Marcus refuses to pay the apothecary s fee. Marcus also scos
at Hienun s
obvious interest in his daughter and sends him packing. Hienun is
infuriated, but has likle
legal recourse in regards to his fee

Hienun, humiliated and furious, does not return home, but goes instead
to his hut. He
concocts a wild plan to poison the Lord and steal away his daughter, so
that they may live
together in happiness.

He creates a potent version of the poison he sells to kill vermin (which
causes the dead
animal s skin to become green ^nged) and disguises himself as a
servant. He uses a glass

sphere lled with magickal sleep-gas to slip passed the servant (Elric
Goodburry). He
poisons the Lord drink, but it is Alecia who drinks the poison and dies.
Hienun escapes in
the confusion, returning to his hut, horried and unhinged.

{ENTER THE HP s}

SETTING

The town of Gunston is nestled among rolling hills and deep forests. It
is a large town of
approximately 500 souls. There is a inn for travelers and provides for
the needs of the
many farmers of the area. It has many cravs-people and a temple to
Phoenix. When this
adventure begins, the moon is seven days from full (waxing) and it is
early fall.

Two miles to the north is the DeMancia manor. It can be reached by a
small, but well
maintained road from Gunston. This road passes through a dense, mixed
forest.

EVENTS

Note: The following is the sequence of events that occur if the HP s do
nothing.

Day 1

HP s arrive in ^me to hear the announcement of Lady Alecia s murder
(although the
means of her death are not menôned). The sheri (Guntag Bootledown)
and his men
make clear that any harboring the villain(s) will be hung. A reward is
oered for
informaôn leading to the criminal s capture and proper jus^ce. The
reward is 40 crowns
(silver coins, 1000 BUC s) If asked, the sheri will take the HP s
back to the manor so
that they may interrogate Elric Goodburry.

Day 2

The funeral for the Lady is held on this day, star^ng at dawn. Hienun
briey akends,
magickaly disguised. He leaves early to retrieve his Apparatus from his
shop before
slipping back to the forest. The procession is lead by Alfred VonKurik,
the town s priest.
The funeral ends with Lady Alecia s body being carriaged away to be
buried in the
DeMancia s private graveyard.

Day 3

Hienun exhumes the body this follow night and brings it to his hut
(leaving tracks). He
performs a Alchemical operaôn to animate Alecia s body, but cannot
restore her mind or
soul. Horried with this animaôn, he decides to burn his hut and the
corpse when it
suddenly comes to malevolent life and akacks him, wounding him severely
before
disappearing into the night. (Aleica s corpse has been possessed the
evil spirit

Day 4

Morning: Marcus DeMancia discovers the thev of his daughter s body and
ies into a
rage. From this point forward, he will be completely impossible to
reason with and may
have the HP s hung just because they re around! Only his wife will be
able to reverse such
a judgement.

Avernoon: Alfred VonKurik is called by Lady Gweven to perfore what
auguries he can to
solve this mystery. His results are vague, and hint at some greater
evil at work.

Evening: Heinun crawls into town this night, nearly dead and compleatly
incohearant.
Magick is necessary to revive he enough for his to confess, which he
will at this point.
The akacks by Alecia/Spririt also begin on this night

Day 5 and beyond

Every night aver this point, the spirit will atack using Alecia s
corpse as a host. This may
mean the death of livestock or people, depending on how powerful the GM
makes the
spirit.

RUMORS:

The DeMancia manor servant ( Elric Goodburry, sirs ) faintly remembers
the smell of
lavender and the sound of breaking glass before he fell asleep. (this is
the sleep-gas Hienun
used to drug him, the glass is the sphere breaking. Note: Hienun blows
his own glass)

Gundar Hoehand, Gunstun s unbalanced haker maintains that Williem
Varlnick (the
cobbler) is the poisoner. Gundar secretly suspects that Williem is
sleeping with his wife
(true) and wishes to have vengeance.

Travin Evermead, the candle/incense maker (who s shop is next to
Hienun s), remarks
that he has not seen the apothecary in some ^me (although Hienun was
and is a recluse)

Brethtur Goodburry (the baker) complains about mice in his pantry. He
has run out of
poison, and the likle buggars are ea^ng him blind. If approached, he
relates that he
bought his poison from Hienun and that it killed the pests readily, even
if it did turn them a
peculiar shade of green...

So that s it! I ad-libed the rest, crea^ng more OP s and describing
the diernt seings as I
went. Hope you like it.

Oh.Yeah. Feedback would be wonderfull.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 14:34:12 -0700
In-Reply-To: <v01540b01ae510ebe52be@[202.36.219.4]>

> >I know this list has done this before, Numerous ^mes, but I was
> >wondering if everyone who runs or plays in a Mythus campaign could say
> >where they're from so that we, those of us who can't seem to nd a game
> >(or quality players), might get in touch with someone to game with.
> >Not to menôn sa^sfying that Mythus addicôn...

Milpitas, California for me. I'm eager to run, but scheduling is
dicult and I can't nd enough players who are interested in learning
a new system.

Harold
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 12:47:52 +0100

>>>ARGH has a policy not to run WoD games. Some of their members have
>found
>aspects of those games oensive, so they try to keep their hands clean.
>
>Forgive my insolence, master. WoD? worlds of Darkness?
>is that right?
>

Congrats. You win...a carrot! :)
>Christopher Stainton

Food for thought:

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 20:20:11 +0200
Subject: Endurance

Hi!
I repeat my call for help with the Endurance and Suppor^ve Factors
rules. If you don't know what I'm talking about, I just asked for an
example with a few dierant animals (one with a horse [4 gates] and one
with something else [3]).

Thanks,
Akiva Esterson
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:00:07 -0400

>Really? Like I said...I think if someone were going to upload the MMM
>to the web or the list they would have done it LONG ago.

I agree. Or, at least, I like to think so. There are fringe people
in every group, but the Mythus list doesn't seem to have that sort
of people.

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 20:16:02 -0400
Subject: More Ascalon

Aver talking with a few people on the list, I think the best way to proceed
with the Ascalon event is as follows:

1. Negoâte with Loren over the price for rst North American publicaôn
rights (or whatever the legal term is). I agree with Dave Newton that Loren
should keep the actual rights and we should just purchase the right to
publish & print an editon. I'm not a lawyer so I will need to look into this
further.
2. I think the project will have to be renamed. Is "Ascalon" a name from
history or was it created for Mythus? I don't know, but if the laker is the
case Loren will have to re-name it. This also means that individuals who
want to use it as a Mythus scenario will have to do a fair amount of work
conver^ng it back aver Loren removes the TSR-owned material.
3. I don't think it should be published electronically but in a printed
form. I know that it would be much easier to distribute by pos^ng to an FTP
site, but the only way plausible way to capitalize this I've come up with is
to have those who want it contribute money to a pool which is used to pay
Loren. I think I can get a break on the price of prin^ng and binding
through a friend, but I can't pay Loren out of my own pocket what I know it
is worth, and I don't know whether there are enough altruists on the list to
kick in their own money for a project that would freely be distributed to
anyone, including those who can't or don't want to contribute money. There
is also the problem of the legal status of pos^ng something that is not
public domain on the Internet. The Scientologist are making it know that if
they have their way such things will not be permiked. Would Loren lose his
rights if this project is posted somewhere electronically? I don't know.
Prin^ng and physically mailing it would be less fraught with peril, if also
more expensive.
4. Finally, if this works it may be just the spur we need to help Mythus
rise from the dead, though we must make clear that we won't accept
poor-quality hackwork from TSR if they do decide to resurrect it. Maybe the
bad blood between LW and EGG could be overcome and Gary & Dave could be free
to work on it again. (I won't hold my breath, however.)

I would like to hear what others think about this. Harold Stringer gave me a
good idea about how to arrange nancing the project, but I'd like to hear
from others. Who would contribute to this, and how much? You don't need to
post to the list unless you want to, since this isn't really about Mythus.
(But then, some^mes a lot of things on this list aren't about Mythus.
S^ll, we're all friends here, right?)

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 20:27:48 +0000
Subject: Re: Quesôns on the prime
In-Reply-To: <199609082110.QAA29878@owbee.interaccess.com>

On Sun, 8 Sep 1996, Eric Medalis wrote:

> I am at the early stage of doing this, and the only thing I have done so
> far is taking the traits and spliing them into the categories and
> ignoring the akributes. That seems to be the biggest problem when I have
> tried running mythus games ( PMcap, huh???).

I did that for a while. It worked fairly well. I did keep the Mythus
Prime perspec^ve on things, so there were 120 points, distributed six
ways, and I mapped the K/S Areas back to Advanced to determine which
category to draw from (rather than 1/2 TRAIT) in person creaôn.

> up mythus prime? I have perused Mike's stu on vocaôns et al, and I
> plan on using parts of it. (though I cant seem to get to his web site
> this weekend. His and mak's.) And what about beasês?

My apologies. skaro had a few problems, the power outage having been
signicant, long, and the UPS ran out (according to the logs) right
about the ^me a major cron job was undertaken, resul^ng in the programs
(to use a technical term) barng all over the disk. Try saving a le
and while the disk light is on, turn the computer o, and see what
happens. Then make it a 10 Mb le :-/

Seriously, though, we're back up and running, and things should be
smoother with Fran dissolved and Hortense not even a blip on our
metaphorical radar.

> So how many of you run prime or adapted prime games? Do they worked? Or
> have they failed? And am I was^ng my ^me and should I just bend my
> players scrawny likle arms un^l they snap and force them into enlightenment?

It works, and works well. For the beasês, use your best judgement, or
take the Advanced crikers, divide the categories in half, divide the
armor in half, and use 'em :-)

I might add that a list member was running a similar game for a while,
and he described it in detail in Dangerous Ideas
(hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/di/). You should check it out
and see how useful it might be.

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 21:29:28 -0400

I founded and ran the RPGA, and every year since 1988 I've been approached
about star^ng an independent gamers' club.
But since I know rst-hand how much work it takes, I've con^nued to
decline. It just doesn't seem possible to make a living o of it -- even
for just 1 or 2 sta -- due to the very limited size of the RPG gamer
populaôn. And it would take full-^me eort on the part of few, or major
part-^me ac^vity on the part of many, to make it march.
The RPGA agged for several years, but seems to be thriving with the
ac^ve promoôn of Living City events. Never mind that I consider such
things to be ul^mate Monty-Haulism, the an^thesis of op^mal roleplaying;
it's what the majority wants, at this point in ^me. So it goes. Perhaps
power gaming will reign thereby; but perhaps quality gaming will prevail. We
shall see. Give it another couple of years.
But I con^nue to watch the market & gaming environment, and am in touch
with every major game company on a regular basis (as Asst. Coordinator of
AOL's Online Gaming Forums, and sole Host of the Game Company Forum online).
If the environment ripens enough to en^ce me to give it another whack -- to
quit my real-life job and start another internaônal RPG organizaôn -I'll certainly let y'all know. :)

-- Frank Mentzer
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 21:31:09 +0100
Subject: Re: Quesôns on the prime

>hello all
>well the list is kinda qiuet, so I thought I would throw in a call for help.
>I am considering running a modied mythus prime campaign. I just cant
>get my players to get into mythus (fools!) so i gure i can ween them into it.
>I am at the early stage of doing this, and the only thing I have done so
>far is taking the traits and spliing them into the categories and
>ignoring the akributes. That seems to be the biggest problem when I have
>tried running mythus games ( PMcap, huh???).

>My quesôn is, does anyone have any expeirence doing this?
Yup.

>Has it worked?
Yup.

>And what other things have they done to create a sort of souped
>up mythus prime?
I took what I felt were the strongest aspects of the advnaced rules and
scaled them down. I included things like damage modiers for high STEEP
and Traits, weapon quality, and several new types of magick.

>I have perused Mike's stu on vocaôns et al, and I
>plan on using parts of it. (though I cant seem to get to his web site
>this weekend. His and mak's.)
I used a few of Mak's vocaôns, but drew many more from the advanced
rules. I tried to take as many of the advanced vocaôns and modify them
to Prime as I could.

>And what about beasês?
>So how many of you run prime or adapted prime games? Do they worked? Or
>have they failed? And am I was^ng my ^me and should I just bend my
>players scrawny likle arms un^l they snap and force them into enlightenment?
>thanks.

If you want, I know my /Intermediate Mythus/ rules were printed in the 2nd
and 3rd issues of Dangerous Ideas. Write Jesse and see if he can e-mail
them too you, or look on some of the DJ web sites - I've seen them there
too. Those rules lasted me through a year long campaign, however I will
say that they do have a few short comings. They are perfect, IMHO, for
weening players into the Mythus game.

Tom

Food for thought:

God must love stupid people. He sure made a lot of them. :)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 18:06:01 +1200
Subject: Re: Endurance

>Hi!
>I repeat my call for help with the Endurance and Suppor^ve Factors
>rules. If you don't know what I'm talking about, I just asked for an
>example with a few dierant animals (one with a horse [4 gates] and one
>with something else [3]).
>
>Thanks,
>Akiva Esterson

Hi Akiva. The descripôn is opaque, isn't it? The rules seem problema^c
at best, but my understanding of them is as follows:

Endurance factors indicate how long a mount can travel before having to
stop, in ^me units depending on its gait. Superla^ve factors indicate how
much you can extend the mount's endurance beyond normal, but this comes at
a price, since you can ride your mount to death by pushing it too hard.
Horses have 4 gaits, other mounts have 3, at mul^ples of the base speed:

Horse Gaits Time per Factor Other Mount Gaits

Walk x1 1 hour Walk x1
Trot x2 2 ATs (10 min) Trot x2
Canter x3 1 AT (5 min) -Gallop x4 1 BT (30 sec) Run x3

----
Take a destrier, for example, with 5 endurance and 2 superla^ve factors.
It could normally walk for 5 hours, trot for 50 minutes, canter for 25
minutes, or gallop for 2.5 minutes before running out of pu. The destrier
could use up its endurance in any combinaôn, of course -- it could start
out cantering for 2 ATs, gallop for 1 BT, then walk for 2 hours before it
needed to rest (2+1+2 endurance factors respec^vely).

Superla^ve factors can either be used aver all normal endurance is used
up (to make the destrier walk 7 hours non-stop, say), or to increase its
speed in short bursts. This is a more likely usage. You could ride at base
speed (walk) for an hour, using 1 endurance factor, then use 2 superla^ve
factors to canter for 2 ATs. Aver slowing down, you check for the chance
of killing your horse (1% + 2% = 3% chance for use of 2 factors), and
assuming it's alive, you can walk it another hour (using an endurance
factor), regain the superla^ve factors, and risk another burst of speed.
Aver a day's travel, a 7 hour rest will restore the destrier to full
endurance. A mount res^ng but not at 0 endurance should regain 3
superla^ve factors an hour, just as when walking.

----The rules say superla^ve factors cannot be exceeded for the type of mount,
but presumably endurance factors can. There seems no reason you can't have
horses of poor, average, or unsurpassed quality, just as with weapons and
so on, and these could have penalês or bonuses to endurance -- say -2 to
+3 (anyone seen anything in the books on this?). A horse that can go at
full speed all day like Shadowfax in Lord of the Rings is presumably
magical.

Hope some of that helped :)

Malcolm
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:53:10 +0200
Subject: Re: More Ascalon

At 20:16 11-09-96 -0400, Don wrote:

>Aver talking with a few people on the list, I think the best way to proceed
>with the Ascalon event is as follows:
>
>1. Negoâte with Loren over the price for rst North American publicaôn
>rights (or whatever the legal term is). I agree with Dave Newton that Loren
>should keep the actual rights and we should just purchase the right to
>publish & print an editon. I'm not a lawyer so I will need to look into
>this further.

Whoa! Now wait a minute! What about us Euro's? The world is *MUCH* larger
than the US alone. And don't you forget that! ;)
On the serious side, I think you shoud take in account that a lot of Mythus
players that will be interested in Ascalon are located outside the US.

[]
>3. I don't think it should be published electronically but in a printed
>form. I know that it would be much easier to distribute by pos^ng to an FTP
>site, but the only way plausible way to capitalize this I've come up with is
>to have those who want it contribute money to a pool which is used to pay
>Loren.
>I think I can get a break on the price of prin^ng and binding
>through a friend, but I can't pay Loren out of my own pocket what I know it
>is worth, and I don't know whether there are enough altruists on the list to
>kick in their own money for a project that would freely be distributed to
>anyone, including those who can't or don't want to contribute money.
I think this (prin^ng and distribuôn) will make it too expensive. Best is
to have it distributed electronically, by sending it on a disk or
electronically. First you pay, then you get your copy. Further, there are
ways of tracking if someone is distribu^ng illegal copies.

>There
>is also the problem of the legal status of pos^ng something that is not
>public domain on the Internet. The Scientologist are making it know that if
>they have their way such things will not be permiked.
The Scientologist are having a hard ^me with their claims in Europe. I read
an ar^cle in our newspaper that stated that several German Bundesstates are
now considering the "Scientology Chruch" not to be a church but an
undesirable organisaôn. Civil servant are no longer allowed to be member
of the SC, and banks refuse the SC accounts.

[]

Harold Stringer
biopharm@xs4all.nl
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 01:18:25 -0700
From: Kevin Swarts <genx@TIDEPOOL.COM>
Subject: Scientology
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19960910204307.2b077860@xs4all.nl>

> The Scientologist are having a hard ^me with their claims in Europe. I read
> an ar^cle in our newspaper that stated that several German Bundesstates are
> now considering the "Scientology Chruch" not to be a church but an
> undesirable organisaôn. Civil servant are no longer allowed to be member
> of the SC, and banks refuse the SC accounts.

I had no idea that any country in Europe allows discriminaôn at a
social level. But it sounds like a good idea, I think us American's
should pe^ôn our congress to pass a undesirable organizaôn law.
Well, even if 100% of the US populaôn voted for it, it would be over
turned in the courts, much like California's Proposiôn 165, in 1994.

Remember, we don't make the laws; judges do!
Kevin
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:44:50 +0000
Subject: On Geing Ascalon (fwd)

I was asked to forward this to the list, so I am doing so...

-- Mike

---------- Forwarded message ---------Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:23:52 -0400
From: Todd Banister <haakon@atl.mindspring.com>
To: Mike Phillips <mike@lawlib.wm.edu>
Subject: One more favor

Here are my few comments on geing Ascalon.
1.) I also agree that everyone on the list should be able to get a copy of
Ascalon. I only mean that there is no limi^ng factor with the dierent
countries involved. Now, if they do not/will not contribute any money to
the fund that is another maker. I think that the only people that should
get a copy are the ones that pay for it. Yes, I would like to Ascalon in
electronic form but I understand the problems this may cause with geing
it from Loren. Do what you must in order to get Ascalon for us. If Loren
only wants us to print copies and not use electronic form - so be it. Lets
at least get it.

I also think that it may be cheaper to get a liscense to print copies of
it
over buying the material outright. If this is the case, then yes, it will
cost some to print the copies but the total price may be less. I would
like
to hear the dierences in the prices (if availible). Pleae keep us
informed as to how much we are o by.

I would like to make my donaôn of $100 to the Ascalon fund. Count this
money in as long as we get it. Please let me know if I can do anything to
help out.

Thanks a bunch.
Todd Banister
haakon@mindspring.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:28:23 -0700
Subject: Ascalon proposal

How about asking the author if he would like to have his module play
tested? He doesn't give up rights to the game. An on-line copy is
distributed to those interested in running it. And if hee need an
in^cement, we pay a fee of some sort. We give him feedback on his work.

John
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 15:00:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Ascalon proposal

At 09:28 AM 9/12/96 -0700, you wrote:
>How about asking the author if he would like to have his module play
>tested? He doesn't give up rights to the game. An on-line copy is
>distributed to those interested in running it. And if hee need an
>in^cement, we pay a fee of some sort. We give him feedback on his work.
>

Loren is a member of this list guys...refer to him in rst person please.

Loren has already stated he has yet to consider all the opôns, that he
would prefer to release it in a commercial environment--and most
importantly, that he would have to "strip out" all DJ references before
doing so. That last part makes it a bit less palatable, IMO.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 15:14:54 +0100
Subject: Can you read this?

Someone please let me know if this is distributed by the listserver. I've
been geing "unable to deliver" messages recently and want to know if
there is a problem.

Thanks,
Tom

Food for thought:

God must love stupid people. He sure made a lot of them. :)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 19:50:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Ascalon proposal

> Loren has already stated...that he would have to "strip out" all
> DJ references before doing so. That last part makes it a bit
> less palatable, IMO.

I interpret this as meaning that I must remove all references to specic
game mechanics and to the names specic to the game universe. Aerth, Aegypt,
and such like are specic to the game universe, IMO. Earth, Egypt, and so on
are not.

For the benet of someone else who asked, Ascalon was a real, historical
city in the middle east (we get the modern English word "Scallion" from a
form of onion that used to grow near there). That name need not change.

Loren Wiseman
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 12:03:31 +1200


Well, let's hope this gets through this ^me. Tom, you're not the only one
geing "unable to deliver" messages. The server daemon complained to me
about "too many hops (17 max)". Maybe it was drunk?

*****

>Hi!
>
>Thanks,
>Akiva Esterson

Hi Akiva. The descripôn is opaque, isn't it? The rules seem problema^c,
but my understanding of them is as follows:

Horses have 4 gaits, other mounts like camels have 3, at mul^ples of the
base speed:



----

Superla^ve factors are used elec^vely, when the rider want to use them.
They can either be used aver all normal endurance is used up (to make the
destrier walk 7 hours non-stop, say), or to increase its speed in short
bursts. This is a more likely usage. You could ride at base speed (walk)
for an hour, using 1 endurance factor, then use 2 superla^ve factors to

canter for 2 ATs.

Aver slowing down, you check for the chance of killing your horse using
the cumula^ve percentage roll described in the text (1% + 2% = 3% chance
for use of 2 factors), and assuming the mount is alive, you can walk it
another hour (using an endurance factor), regain the superla^ve factors,
and risk another burst of speed. Aver a day's travel, a 7 hour rest will
restore the destrier to full endurance. A mount res^ng but not at 0
endurance should regain up to 3 superla^ve factors an hour, just as when
walking.

----
I think the chance of killing your mount when it's s^ll reasonably fresh
is too high. The rules are meant to reect cumula^ve fa^gue aver all.
I'd subtract the number of endurance factors lev from the cumula^ve
percentage roll at the end of any burst of speed using superla^ve factors.
This means if your mount s^ll has lots of endurance factors, it would have
likle chance or no of dying, but if it's almost out of endurance at the
end of a day's travel, you take your chances. It's your 30,000 BUC warhorse
aver all...

The rules say superla^ve factors cannot be exceeded for the type of mount,
so on, and these perhaps could have penalês or bonuses to endurance -say -2 to +3 (anyone seen anything in the books on this?). A horse that can
go at full speed all day like Shadowfax in Lord of the Rings is presumably
magical or magicked.


Malcolm
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 13:47:39 +1200

Well, let's hope this gets through this ^me. Tom, you're not the only one
geing "unable to deliver" messages. The server daemon keeps complaining
about "too many hops (17 max)"... sounds like a lame excuse.

*****

>Hi!
>
>Thanks,
>Akiva Esterson


base speed:



----

canter for 2 ATs. You s^ll have 4 endurance factors lev.

walking.

----
percentage roll at the end of any burst of speed using superla^ve factors.
aver all...



Malcolm
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 00:13:20 EDT
Subject: Loren?

>Loren is a member of this list guys...refer to him in rst person
please.

John, perhaps Mr. Stanton did not know Loren's name, or that he was the
author, or couldn't recall it at the ^me. Or maybe he didn't realize
that Loren was now ON the list......we heard talk that he might join, but
haven't seen the posts which bear his name.
Since he is on the list, I have this quesôn:
Loren, could you E-mail me (Privately). I have quesôns as to some of
GDW's (your) other products which aren't Mythus, and do not feel it is
appropriate to Hang it out to dry here, so to speak.
Thanks

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

..............................................................Roger
Waters
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:40:53 +1200

>Hi!
>
>Thanks,
>Akiva Esterson


base speed:



----



walking.

----
percentage roll at the end of any burst of speed made with superla^ve
factors. (Say, 3% - 2 = 1%, if your mount had 2 endurance factors lev.)
aver all...



Malcolm
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 14:03:03 EDT
Subject: Loren

Since you ares on the list, I have this quesôn:
Loren, could you E-mail me (Privately). I have quesôns as to some of
GDW's (your) other products which aren't Mythus, and do not feel it is
appropriate to Hang it out to dry here, so to speak.
Thanks

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
........................................................Roger Waters
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 18:13:05 -0400
From: "Rich H." <DrXenos@AOL.COM>
Subject: waters

Hey, Chris S:

GREAT ALBUM, ISN'T IT!

DrXenos@alo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 14:32:46 -0400
Subject: Test...

Just checking to make sure this is working again...having some weird errors...
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 15:52:46 -0400
Subject: Greydex Claricaôns by E Gary Gygax.
X-To: TSRRoger@aol.com, GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Hi all,

Recently, I discovered the Greyhawk Campaign Indexes wriken by Roger E.
Moore, and published on TSR's FTP site located on the Mul^player Games
Network. I found these very complete and a neat insight into all the GH
material published. In addiôn to leing Roger know a few things Gary's
told me, I decided to show the whole work to EGG, in case he was either
interested and/or had any comments to make.

Well, it looks like he had more than a few! He sent me back a leker, and
he's given me permission to send him Roger any of these comments, and/or
put them on-line. Since much of this is of note to GREYHAWK fans, I've
decided in addiôn to E-Mailing him the notes, to post it to the GreyTALK
list, and since DANGEROUS JOURNEYS is menôned herin, I thought the
Mythus-L list would appreciate seeing his comments here.

=================================================
Roger Moore is a good chap and an able researcher, as well-evidenced by his
work regarding the Greyhawk Milieu. However, he makes errors--as do all,
myself included. He might have checked uncertain areas with me--if TSR
would allow that, and that's another maker, of course.

Anyway, and as a prime example of mistaken assumpôns on Roger's part,
"Rary" was never a PC of mine. The character was Brian Blumes, and he was
Brian's "Medium Rary". Brian typically ran o-the-wall PCs, such as a
pink elephant in Jim Ward's METAMORPHOSIS ALPHA campaign. (Yes, the other
players drove the pachyderm away upon pain of death, and the odd elephant
was last seen disappearing into a grove of orange [highly radioac^ve] trees.

While Roger might have fun toying with the map of the Flanaess as some
version of Europe I must disabuse him of the noôn that there is the least
validity in such speculaôn. I sat in my oce at TSR, then in the 723
Williams Street building, and free-handed the con^nent to the specs of the
largest sheet of paper Patch Press could run for us then. In point of
fact, the Nyr Dyv and associated large lakes are pakerned loosely aver
the Great Lakes, and Greyhawk a sort of Fantasy Chicago, the city of my
birth. Note its posiôn on the southwestern end of the lake. The states,
their peoples, and their histories are completely cônal with no bases
drawn from earth's own history. In truth, many are named aver family and
friends--Ernts, Lukish, Pomarj, etc.

Also, in a similar vein, the only "reversed maps" in DANGEROUS JOURNEYS are
those of the world of Phaeree, a mirror image AErth, right? Sure.

As to my original Greyhawk campaign, indeed I have stated plainly that I
used a map of the earth as a basis. This was absolutely the opposite of
the published material, that which I drew up on the spot to accomodate the
various places I had imagined and addiôns I thought would add to the
richness of the fantasy milieu. Because I conceived of a probability
discon^nuum with a near innity of parallel earths, the possible
near-alike worlds where magic was operaônal was large indeed. However,
there is no real resemblance between Oerth, a non-earth-like world, and
AErth of DANGEROUS JOURNEYS, a very much earth-like planet. AErth had a
historical corollary with earth, and OErth did not. Only in name was it
vaguely related to earth, and I did that to allow the players to have some
means of rela^ng this strange environment to their own actual one.

Now in order to oer players a logical series of parallel worlds for
Oerth, I considered using it as a model world from which to draw similar
planets with similar names, as Roger noted. Be that as it may, I never go
around to doing that.

In 1989 I sat down with a globe of the world, got out my acrylic paints,
and proceeded to create a whole new original world, AErth. The ligature
[AE stuck together, which I can't reproduce here--JRT] denoted its
uniqueness. It was craved with loving care over the next year or so, with
painstaking eort. AErth is neither Oerth, Aerth, earth, or any other
previous creaôn.

Bigby's "Hand" spells were inspired by Chalmers of the deCamp and Prak
series of stories featuring Harold Shea--THE INCOMPLETE ENCHANTER, as I
recall, where Chalmers used gloves to create magical hands that grebber
their foes.

Roger makes a leap when he states that Gord is on AErth. This is possibly
related to the menôn of Hy Brasael. The island is, of course, drawn from
legendary sources and not a creaôn of my own imaginaôn. I would
suppose that any parallel world of earth with strong opera^ve magic would
posses such a place--along with an Atlan^s, Lemuria, and a Shangri-la
perhaps, even though the place is of recent côn. Anyway, a perusal of
DJ material will discover not a menôn of Gord or Leda, et. al. This
indeed points out the striking dierence between Oerth and AErth of DJ.
The former has its own deiês and legends, while the laker has those from
out own earth. That there is no relaônship between the two series of
worlds and their par^cular parallels is thus even more clearly demonstrated.

The Norton novel was not under any crea^ve direcôn by TSR or by me
personally, save for a general okay as to presentaôn of the game material.

The GNOME CACHE was cut by editor Tim Kask because of a desire to print
more gaming material.

As for "allowances" for rearms, I did allow them in the overall campaign
on worlds and/or planes not that of Greyhawk proper. Gunpowder did not
work on Oerth, although certain "high-tech" ray guns would. The reasoning
for not including gunpowder weapons in D&D/AD&D is forthright and simple:
Why complicate a magical universe with something that is mundane? Besides
there was no shortage of weapons!

Erac was a character of Ernie Gygax's creaôn, as was Erac's cousin, one
so evil that he guarded his true name most carefully.

J.R.R.T. (and incidentally I was dis^nctly /uninspired/ by the "Rings
Trilogy") did not invent the name "hobbit". I discovered it in a list of
fairies and the like in some old book I do not recall. Likewise, "ent" is
the Saxon word for Giant, I am informed. However, his licensing people
sued TSR (yes, they do not always ins^tute li^gaôn, though they usually
do, it seems). Hobbits became halings thereaver, ents became Treants,
and Balrogs vanished from the pages of TSR's material. The corporaôn
stood fast of elves, dwarves, goblins, orcs, etc., and Elan Merchandising
backed down.

Drow, as dark elves, are found in at least large dicônaries, as are Trow.
My Funk and Wagnall's has both lis^ngs. I must have been cavalier in
rechecking sources for them as Roger notes. However, the usual reference
to THE SECRET COMMONWEALTH OF etc. is restricted to the rst three words
of the ^tle, and the researcher will nd the book listed thus. Forget
the elves, and fairies and such.

No! Many of the crikers in the FIEND FOLIO I asked to be cut, for they
were /not/ compa^ble with GREYHAWK or AD&D in my opinion. That's why so
many new monsters were created by myself and others at TSR to ll in gaps.
Well, Lawrence Schick didn't cut the dross before he himself was cut from
the company, so a lot of stupid crikers stayed in, much to my annoyance,
as I have said publically. Do not assume that all the monsters in the work
are in original, Gygaxian, GREYHAWK.

UNEARTHED ARCANA authored by "Gary Gygax and others"? Nonsense. What
others? As the cover of the book said, I authored the work. Not a ^the
of it is from any source other than me. In fact, most is taken directly
from ar^cles I did, then expanded for the book--in a hurry as TSR was in
desperate nancial straits, and without its publicaôn the corporaôn
would probably have gone bankrupt. Credit where credit is due. [EGG might
not be recalling that Roger Moore himself wrote the Gods of the demihumans
therin, and Lenoard LaKoa's Clercial spells, both appearing in Dragon
magazine beforhand--or maybe contribuôns don't equal authorship. I'll
inquire about it--JRT]

Murlynd, an extension of Don Kaye's main PC, has varied stats for reasons
of the game seing. The character never got about 11th or 12th level in
play.

I submit that Ward's cobbled up dungeons [They weren't JW's, rather an
amalgam of others works--JRT] purported to belong to Greyhawk Castle are
certainly the worst thing ever oered in regards that milieu. [Personal
agreement--JRT]. This is admikedly based only on consumer's comments to
me, not on my own knowledge, for I have never seen nor read any of the
material.

Any material pertaining to Greyhawk that I didn't author or approve is
"corporate" not my own (mid 1985-onwards). As TSR owns the name and the
campaign, it can and does do whatever they like with the milieu. I must
state rmly that it bears no resemblance to the mul^verse I created and
envisioned. Complaints about my material can be directed to me, but all
quesôns regarding any workings of the campaign are the property of TSR.
I stopped ac^ve play in my own Greyhawk in late 1984.

The spelling of "From the Sorcerer's/Sorceror's Scroll" was purely a
funcôn of the editorial sta of DRAGON Magazine. In fact, un^l Roger
pointed it out, I never no^ced the error, as I never read my own work
aver authoring it and submiing it. It's preky humorous, though, to see
the misspelling. Obviously, not many people no^ced... or if they did were
not concerned. Whatever I insisted on at TSR from c. 1981 onwards was sure
to draw the opposite result, as he should well know.

In closing I have to say that despite the errors, Roger is a ^reless and
painstaking researcher and compiler. Too bad he didn't get in touch with
me to clarify things before publishing...but TSR would probably not permit
him to do so.

=========================

That's it...
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 10:55:19 +1200

>Hi!
>
>Thanks,
>Akiva Esterson


base speed:



----

Superla^ve factors are used elec^vely, when the rider wants to use them.

walking.

----
percentage roll at the end of any burst of speed made with superla^ve
factors. (Say, 3% - 2 = 1%, if your mount had 2 endurance factors lev.)
aver all...



Malcolm
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 12:23:37 +1200
Subject: Tes^ng the Listserv

Just a test, to see if a smaller message gets through. I've been geing
"Returned mail: Unable to deliver mail" messages for a few days, dammit.

Malcolm

****
>From: MAILER-DAEMON@charlie.ece.scarolina.edu (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
> ----- Transcript of session follows ----><<< RCPT To:<dawson@ece.sc.edu>
><<< DATA 554 sendall: too many hops (17 max)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 23:00:07 +0000
Subject: Re: Tes^ng the Listserv
X-To: Malcolm Bowers <malcolm@ADI.CO.NZ>
In-Reply-To: <v01540b01ae624d8c09b9@[202.36.219.4]>

On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, Malcolm Bowers wrote:

> Just a test, to see if a smaller message gets through. I've been geing
> "Returned mail: Unable to deliver mail" messages for a few days, dammit.
>
> Malcolm
> malcolm@adi.co.nz (Malcolm Bowers)

The mail goes through. Believe me. However, one of the list members has
an improperly congured e-mail account, and mail is bouncing from him.

(cc:ing the list, who might be interested)

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 09:30:25 -0400

I founded and ran the RPGA, and every year since 1988 I've been approached
about star^ng an independent gamers' club.
But since I know rst-hand how much work it takes, I've con^nued to
decline. It just doesn't seem possible to make a living o of it -- even
for just 1 or 2 sta -- due to the very limited size of the RPG gamer
populaôn. And it would take full-^me eort on the part of few, or major
part-^me ac^vity on the part of many, to make it march.
The RPGA agged for several years, but seems to be thriving with the
ac^ve promoôn of Living City events. Never mind that I consider such
things to be ul^mate Monty-Haulism, the an^thesis of op^mal roleplaying;
it's what the majority wants, at this point in ^me. So it goes. Perhaps
power gaming will reign thereby; but perhaps quality gaming will prevail. We
shall see. Give it another couple of years.
But I con^nue to watch the market & gaming environment, and am in touch
with every major game company on a regular basis (as Asst. Coordinator of
AOL's Online Gaming Forums, and sole Host of the Game Company Forum online).
If the environment ripens enough to en^ce me to give it another whack -- to
quit my real-life job and start another internaônal RPG organizaôn -I'll certainly let y'all know. :)

-- Frank Mentzer
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:49:28 -0400
Subject: Pidgin (Trade Phoenecian)

Since there was a discussion about trade languages not too long ago, I
thought the list might enjoy this snippet from a newsgroup about Pidgin. It
would really add avor to a game if the players were required to speak this
way when their HPs were conversing in Trade Phoenecian.

In the Inside Australia book by John Gunther, there is a discussion of
Pidgin since it is/was spoken in New Guinea, and had akained a type of
grammar and large vocabulary. There are similariês to English, viz:
government comes out as 'guvman'
something as 'sam^ng'
belong as 'bilong,' 'bolong,' 'blong,' etc.

As an introducôn to Pidgin, some select words:
woman ---------------> 'meri' (Mary, generic word for woman)
another man's wife --> 'meri bilong enaderfelo man'
hair ----------------> 'grass bilong hed'
helicopter ----------> 'mixmasta bilong Jesus Christ'
con --------------> 'die bokus'

And my personal favorite,
piano --> 'bokus bilong teeth yu hi^m teeth bokus i cry'

And now, the Commandments in Pidgin, as translated by the
Alexishafen Catholic Mission in 1937:
1. Mi Master, God bilong yu, yu no ken mekim masalai
end ol tambaran.
2. Yu no ken kolim na^ng nem bilong God.
3. Yu mast santuim sande.
4. Yu mast mekin gud long papamama bilong yu.
5. Yu no ken kilim man.
6. Yu no ken brukim fashin bilong marit.
7. Yu no ken s^lim sam^ng.
8. Yu no ken lai.
9. Yu no ken duim meri bilong enaderfelo man.
10. Yu no ken laik s^lim sam^ng.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 23:06:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Pidgin (Trade Phoenecian)

One of my favorite pidjin sentences is:

Wuk lung rot. Ol kar mus top wen yu seehim fella mark.

Road Work ahead. All cars must stop when red sign is displayed
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 18:35:00 -0500
Subject: TEST

Just tes^ng the list.

Wayne
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 11:35:46 -0500
Subject: Memorizaôn of Cas^ngs

I was wondering about how everyone else deals with certain aspects of Cas^ngs.
In par^cular there are three classes of cas^ngs that HP's may know:
Known, Recallable and Studyable. The Known and Recallable cas^ngs are
determined by the HP's Mental Mnemonic Capacity (or something) and all of the
rest are Studyable. The quesôn is this: How do you handle it if an HP

wants to change their list of Known and Recallable cas^ngs? Obvioulsy it
should not be easy. Should a week of studying allow an HP to convert a
studyable cas^ng to recallable at the cost of a random recallable cas^ng?
Or more logically the cas^ng that was not cast or studied recently.

Dan "My mind works in FIFO mode!" Williamson

=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 11:31:54 -0700

At 05:31 PM 7/30/96 -0400, you wrote:
>you in advance.
>
>Sincerely,

You know, I just no^ced this in my old email archives. If you
are s^ll keeping this list, I post on one of my web pages, called
"Goshdarn Good Internet RPG Resources". It's located at:
hkp://www.inetworld.net/~tsouth/rpg/goshdarn.html
Please drop by and take a look.

Todd South
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 17:04:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Memorizaôn of Cas^ngs

At 11:35 AM 9/21/96 -0500, you wrote:
>I was wondering about how everyone else deals with certain aspects of Cas^ngs.
>In par^cular there are three classes of cas^ngs that HP's may know:
>Known, Recallable and Studyable. The Known and Recallable cas^ngs are
>determined by the HP's Mental Mnemonic Capacity (or something) and all of the
>rest are Studyable. The quesôn is this: How do you handle it if an HP
>wants to change their list of Known and Recallable cas^ngs? Obvioulsy it
>should not be easy. Should a week of studying allow an HP to convert a
>studyable cas^ng to recallable at the cost of a random recallable cas^ng?
>Or more logically the cas^ng that was not cast or studied recently.
>
>Dan "My mind works in FIFO mode!" Williamson
>
>"Hi! I just wanted to see how you were doing on this rainy day,
>on this rainy day, on this rainy day, on this rainy day."
>
>(MJW)

Dan,

I can of course only speak for myself with regard to how I would handle such
a situaôn. Now before I begin keep in mind that I have been accused of
limi^ng my game play by such trivial things as a sense of reality and game
rules.

The number of known cas^ngs is determined by akributes(dierent ones
depending upon the HP's status of FP or PP). If a HP wants to change their
list of Known and Recallable cas^ngs the answer is simple, No.

There are of course jus^fying reasons for this nega^ve answer. First a
sense of reality, if one is educated as an engineer one cannot "forget"
everything about being an engineer in order to become a sailor. The former
knowledge is there and cannot be replaced. Although one might allow a
specic cas^ng to try to wipe away all preexis^ng knowledge of one area,
with all the dangers of failures that would go along with such a bold
akempt. Second, game rules, the rules state that an HP may choose a certain
number of cas^ngs according to akributes, if an HP is allowed to change at
will then there is no longer a need to make wise choices at the HP's
creaôn. A JM might just as easily allow an HP to choose any cas^ng from
any K/S area they possess.

There are alterna^ves to switching the list. The player can create another
HP and be careful to make wiser choices in selec^ng cas^ng from now on.
The player could addiônally increase his akribute scores that determine
known cas^ngs and then add the cas^ng they want to add on to their known list.
When the HP does have enough slots to add a studyable to the known list I
would suggest the age old AD&D tradiôn that a week per cas^ng grade be
spent in study in order to move it to the recallable list. Thereaver it
should not be added to the known list un^l a successfull recallable role is
made.

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 18:49:33 +0000

In-Reply-To: <199609212104.RAA18845@beasley.cris.com>

On Sat, 21 Sep 1996, Michae J. Weaver wrote:

> At 11:35 AM 9/21/96 -0500, Dan Williamson wrote:
> >I was wondering about how everyone else deals with certain aspects of Cas^ngs.
> >In par^cular there are three classes of cas^ngs that HP's may know:
> >Known, Recallable and Studyable. The Known and Recallable cas^ngs are
> >determined by the HP's Mental Mnemonic Capacity (or something) and all of the
> >rest are Studyable. The quesôn is this: How do you handle it if an HP
> >wants to change their list of Known and Recallable cas^ngs? Obvioulsy it
> >should not be easy. Should a week of studying allow an HP to convert a
> >studyable cas^ng to recallable at the cost of a random recallable cas^ng?
> >Or more logically the cas^ng that was not cast or studied recently.
>
> The number of known cas^ngs is determined by akributes(dierent ones
> depending upon the HP's status of FP or PP). If a HP wants to change their
> list of Known and Recallable cas^ngs the answer is simple, No.
>
> There are of course jus^fying reasons for this nega^ve answer. First a
> sense of reality, if one is educated as an engineer one cannot "forget"
> everything about being an engineer in order to become a sailor. The former
> knowledge is there and cannot be replaced. Although one might allow a
> specic cas^ng to try to wipe away all preexis^ng knowledge of one area,
> with all the dangers of failures that would go along with such a bold
> akempt. Second, game rules, the rules state that an HP may choose a certain
> number of cas^ngs according to akributes, if an HP is allowed to change at
> will then there is no longer a need to make wise choices at the HP's
> creaôn. A JM might just as easily allow an HP to choose any cas^ng from
> any K/S area they possess.

I take the opposite view, in that I'm fairly exible and forgiving.
Honest! (Put down that knife, Ryan, I let you guys get away with a
*lot*. No, really!)

I let my players juggle the known/recallable as follows: in order to keep
something *known*, one has to review it from ^me to ^me (unless one has
truly eide^c memory, in which case *all* cas^ngs should be considered
"known", but that's another story). For instance, I had the quadra^c
formula drilled into my skull, and used it *many many* ^mes, but haven't
needed it for quite some ^me since then and can't recall it any more.
Five years ago, I could've stumbled through it, ten years ago I could've
rakled it straight o. Now, I'd have to look the durn thing up.....

The ^me is immaterial, in that the more complicated something is, the
harder it is to memorize and the quicker it is forgoken. If not

constantly reviewed, the "known" list would slowly shrink, as those
cas^ngs not commonly used would be slowly forgoken. The idea being, an
HP can "shue" a cas^ng o the Known list by not using it and not
reviewing it, which would then leave room to "shue" another one on by
some intensive study.

I consider Cas^ngs to be rela^vely complicated things, something akin
to memorizing, say, half a play for an average Grade III-V or so. I
vaguely recall someone pos^ng something a while ago, as a suggesôn.
Oand, I'd recommend something like this:

To keep a cas^ng "known" requires at least 1 hour of review per grade
per month, although it can be spread out. However, one does not
immediately forget a cas^ng if one skips study for the month, since the
use of a cas^ng under ^me-pressure (such as in the middle of combat)
would subs^tute for that month's study, since it ingrains the cas^ng
even more deeply. I would say use your best judgement in guring out
how quickly it's forgoken altogether.

To make a cas^ng "recallable" (from the innite-sized "studyable" list,
i.e. everything in the caster's library) requires 4 hours study and
prac^ce per grade, spread out over a rela^vely short ^me. If the ^me
is spread out over more than a couple weeks, halve the eec^veness of
the studying (i.e. double the amount of ^me), since it's not being
drilled really well.

If one really wants the extra book-keeping, one could force a "recall"
check at DR "Very Easy" (x4) if the pressure is really intense, and a
Special Failure would result in Known going to Recallable. Further, any
Special Failure akemp^ng to remember a Recallable under pressure would
move it to Studyable. I wouldn't force it as JM, but I'd explain to my
players and let them worry about it. They've been preky honest folks :-)

Of course, I haven't thought it through par^cularly carefully, so these
may not be well-thought-out, but I gure they would do for guidelines.

> There are alterna^ves to switching the list. The player can create another
> HP and be careful to make wiser choices in selec^ng cas^ng from now on.

I strongly disagree on this one, since it relies on a sort of
'meta-knowledge' that the *player* can reasonably have, but the *persona*
shouldn't. For instance, say a par^cular JM likes throwing big, tough
nasês at his party, so the second HP (who otherwise is a fairly
pacis^c persona) ends up with half his known cas^ngs being
combat-oriented. That breaks some of the role-playing illusion, and some
of the in-character (in-persona?) thinking.

The alterna^ve that appeals if the list is immutable is to not ll up
the list at the outset, but let experience dictate the list over ^me
(which would require some sort of rules for making a cas^ng known).

Anyways, them's my thoughts. Take 'em for what they're worth :-)

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 19:37:17 -0400

>>>The number of known cas^ngs is determined by akributes(dierent ones
depending upon the HP's status of FP or PP). If a HP wants to change their
list of Known and Recallable cas^ngs the answer is simple, No.<<<

What is your interpretaôn of the studiable cas^ngs list? Per your comment
above, collec^ng this list of cas^ngs is useless as they are not directly
castable.

I allow personas to change all three lists during rest or "down" ^me. It is
limited, however, I haven't set a limit as no persona in my group has tried
to change more that one or two cas^ngs in an adventure. Typically to adapt
to a dierent environment.

There is at least one example in the books of being able to lose and add a
cas^ng to the known or recallable list. It is recommended that any persona
rolling a special failure while cas^ng should have that cas^ng removed from
their known or recallable list as appropriate, necessita^ng the relearning
of the cas^ng.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 17:53:42 -0600
From: Andrew Phillips <philandr@CWIS.ISU.EDU>
Subject: Dangerous Journeys

Shalom. I'm new to the list, so this may be a repeat quesôn. Was
Unhallowed ever released? Danke.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 23:18:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Dangerous Journeys

At 05:53 PM 9/21/96 -0600, you wrote:

>Shalom. I'm new to the list, so this may be a repeat quesôn. Was
>Unhallowed ever released? Danke.
>
No. The unpublished unedited manuscript is now TSR's property.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 21:53:33 -0700
Subject: The Gamers' Driectory
X-To: GURPSnet-L@io.com
X-cc: GMAST-L@UTCVM.UTC.EDU

Just a short note:

My ISP is switching over to a new server and I'm temporarily
unable to update The Gamers' Directory web pages. I'm
assuming that most people awai^ng pos^ng read these groups.
Thanks for your ^me.

Todd South
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 02:43:24 -0400

At 07:37 PM 9/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>>>The number of known cas^ngs is determined by akributes(dierent ones
>depending upon the HP's status of FP or PP). If a HP wants to change their
>list of Known and Recallable cas^ngs the answer is simple, No.<<<
>
>What is your interpretaôn of the studiable cas^ngs list? Per your comment
>above, collec^ng this list of cas^ngs is useless as they are not directly
>castable.

(MJW)
The purpose of the studyable cas^ng list, in my opinion, is to allow
players to add cas^ngs to their recallable and known lists when these slots
become availbale to them. This explains where they get(from the Tomes) the
cas^ngs to study and learn. Other cas^ngs could be acquired via books and
scrolls while adventuring of course. The studyable cas^ngs can be directly
employed if the HP carries them with them via a portable Tome(see pg.30
Mythus Magick).
>
>I allow personas to change all three lists during rest or "down" ^me. It is
>limited, however, I haven't set a limit as no persona in my group has tried
>to change more that one or two cas^ngs in an adventure. Typically to adapt
>to a dierent environment.

(MJW)
I allow HP's to move cas^ngs from recallable to known or studyable to
recallable during down ^me but only if they have the slots. If a cas^ng
moves from recalable to known, one recallable slot is then open to be lled.
>
>There is at least one example in the books of being able to lose and add a
>cas^ng to the known or recallable list. It is recommended that any persona
>rolling a special failure while cas^ng should have that cas^ng removed from
>their known or recallable list as appropriate, necessita^ng the relearning
>of the cas^ng.

(MJW)
This is a rule which I employ. I may point out that it is the only instance
in the book of such an example. Thus if an HP(my game) rolls a special
failure on a known cas^ng then it is removed from the list. Further if the
HP did not include that cas^ng on their studyable list then they cannot
relearn it un^l they nd it during an adventure or convince another HP to
loan them their cas^ng Tome to copy(if that cas^ng is contained therein).
In this instance the HP may certainly choose to replace the lost cas^ng
with another one.

(MJW)
Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 02:43:08 -0400

>>
(This post has been edited)

(MJW)
>> There are of course jus^fying reasons for this nega^ve answer. First a
>> sense of reality, if one is educated as an engineer one cannot "forget"
>> everything about being an engineer in order to become a sailor. The former
>> knowledge is there and cannot be replaced. Although one might allow a
>> specic cas^ng to try to wipe away all preexis^ng knowledge of one area,
>> with all the dangers of failures that would go along with such a bold
>> akempt. Second, game rules, the rules state that an HP may choose a certain
>> number of cas^ngs according to akributes, if an HP is allowed to change at
>> will then there is no longer a need to make wise choices at the HP's
>> creaôn. A JM might just as easily allow an HP to choose any cas^ng from
>> any K/S area they possess.
>
>I take the opposite view, in that I'm fairly exible and forgiving.
>Honest! (Put down that knife, Ryan, I let you guys get away with a
>*lot*. No, really!)
>
>I let my players juggle the known/recallable as follows: in order to keep
>something *known*, one has to review it from ^me to ^me (unless one has
>truly eide^c memory, in which case *all* cas^ngs should be considered
>"known", but that's another story). For instance, I had the quadra^c
>formula drilled into my skull, and used it *many many* ^mes, but haven't
>needed it for quite some ^me since then and can't recall it any more.
>Five years ago, I could've stumbled through it, ten years ago I could've
>rakled it straight o. Now, I'd have to look the durn thing up.....
>
>The ^me is immaterial, in that the more complicated something is, the
>harder it is to memorize and the quicker it is forgoken. If not
>constantly reviewed, the "known" list would slowly shrink, as those
>cas^ngs not commonly used would be slowly forgoken. The idea being, an
>HP can "shue" a cas^ng o the Known list by not using it and not
>reviewing it, which would then leave room to "shue" another one on by
>some intensive study.

(MJW)
One might reasonably disagree here with the arguement that the above example
of the quadra^c formula cons^tuted something that was memorized but not
known. I would ask if Mike(no oense here just disagreement) has forgoken
his mutliplicaôn tables. The forgeing and inability to use the
mul^plicaôn tables 1-9 would be comparable to forgeing an actually
known fact. I would dene a known cas^ng as a known fact.

(MJW)
In the maker of cas^ngs being complicated(more so than mul^plicaôn) I
would argue that Stephen Hawking or Carl Sagan denied the use of mathema^cs
for many years would s^ll be able to apply mathema^cs when once again
allowed to with rela^ve ease,because they had become so familiar with the
knowledge previously. My understanding of the Mythus game is that HP's begin
with knowledge that was acquired through years of study.
>
>I consider Cas^ngs to be rela^vely complicated things, something akin
>to memorizing, say, half a play for an average Grade III-V or so. I
>vaguely recall someone pos^ng something a while ago, as a suggesôn.
>Oand, I'd recommend something like this:

>
>To keep a cas^ng "known" requires at least 1 hour of review per grade
>per month, although it can be spread out. However, one does not
>immediately forget a cas^ng if one skips study for the month, since the
>use of a cas^ng under ^me-pressure (such as in the middle of combat)
>would subs^tute for that month's study, since it ingrains the cas^ng
>even more deeply. I would say use your best judgement in guring out
>how quickly it's forgoken altogether.
>
>To make a cas^ng "recallable" (from the innite-sized "studyable" list,
>i.e. everything in the caster's library) requires 4 hours study and
>prac^ce per grade, spread out over a rela^vely short ^me. If the ^me
>is spread out over more than a couple weeks, halve the eec^veness of
>the studying (i.e. double the amount of ^me), since it's not being
>drilled really well.
>
>If one really wants the extra book-keeping, one could force a "recall"
>check at DR "Very Easy" (x4) if the pressure is really intense, and a
>Special Failure would result in Known going to Recallable. Further, any
>Special Failure akemp^ng to remember a Recallable under pressure would
>move it to Studyable. I wouldn't force it as JM, but I'd explain to my
>players and let them worry about it. They've been preky honest folks :-)
>
>Of course, I haven't thought it through par^cularly carefully, so these
>may not be well-thought-out, but I gure they would do for guidelines.

(MJW)
I have encountered this problem and have given it some thought. However, I
recommend that a JM decide on the basis fo what works best in their
individual game.
>
>> There are alterna^ves to switching the list. The player can create another
>> HP and be careful to make wiser choices in selec^ng cas^ng from now on.
>
>I strongly disagree on this one, since it relies on a sort of
>'meta-knowledge' that the *player* can reasonably have, but the *persona*
>shouldn't. For instance, say a par^cular JM likes throwing big, tough
>nasês at his party, so the second HP (who otherwise is a fairly
>pacis^c persona) ends up with half his known cas^ngs being
>combat-oriented. That breaks some of the role-playing illusion, and some
>of the in-character (in-persona?) thing.

(MJW)
A player could certainly choose to do this. However, if I were the players
JM the sought aver advantage would be quickly dimissed. I would present
scenarios where combat(hack&slash) would not solve the problem. Thus the
player would be discouraged from over using these now ineec^ve cas^ngs
and the pacist persona would probably con^nue to rely on his or other K/S
areas.
>
>The alterna^ve that appeals if the list is immutable is to not ll up
>the list at the outset, but let experience dictate the list over ^me
>(which would require some sort of rules for making a cas^ng known).

(MJW)
I agree with this suggesôn completely. My rules for making a cas^ng known
are studying it, which means it must come out of the HP tomes or being found
during the adventure(this part via logic and the rules). Then aver being
studied one week per grade it can be placed in recallable(so save slots
here). Then if a recallable role is made at DR "hard" it can move to known.
The HP could make this roll once an hour, a day, whatever you decide.(and
yes the slot now open on recallables can be lled with another cas^ng).
>
>Anyways, them's my thoughts. Take 'em for what they're worth :-)

(MJW)
Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
>
>-- __+__
>Mike Phillips, mike@lawlib.wm.edu | |#|#| | LINUX SAGA vol 2 |
>Mythus: hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/ | |L|L| | Penguins of |
>Home page: hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/ | |L|L| | Des^ny |
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 14:15:26 +0200
Subject: The Ziz
X-cc: Amit Gvaryahu <amity@usa.net>

Hi,
The Ziz, menôned in the Epic Of AErth book, on page 209 (as an
Unseelie monster) is actually few creatures who appear in Jewish myth!
Following is something I scanned out of a book ^tled "A Jewish Besâry.
A Book of Fabulous Creatures Drawn from Hebraic Legend and Lore", by Mark
Podwal. Following the quoted material is some stu I have to say for
myself. Here goes:
----------------------------------------------------------------------- THE ZIZ The fabulous Ziz, whose single scriptural menôn (in the Book
of psalms) gave rise to rich imaginings, is a bird monstrous in size,
ruling over all the other birds. Its wings are reputed to he so enormous
that when they unfurl day turns into night. These pinions protect the
earth from the storms that blow from the south. If the Holy One, blessed
be He, had not in His innite mercy created the Ziz to provide protecôn
for the weak and defenseless among the avian creatures, they would have
been destroyed long ago by their more ferocious fellows. Every year, on
the rst day of the month of Tishri, the Ziz lets out a horrible shriek
while apping its wings. The falcons, the vultures, and the other birds
of prey tremble and restrain their appe^tes.
The Talmud records a "sigh^ng" of the Ziz. It once happened that
travelers on a ship no^ced a bird standing in the water. The waves
covered merely its feet, and its head knocked against the sky. The
onlookers thought the water couldn't be very deep at that point, and they
decided to bathe there. A heavenly voice warned them. "Alight not here!
Once a carpenter's axe slipped from his hand at this spot, and it took
seven years to touch bokom." The bird the travelers saw was none other
than the Ziz.
The name Ziz is derived from the varied tastes the bird's esh is said
to have: it tastes like "this" and it tastes like "that," in Hebrew, ZEH
VA-ZEH. Even though it is well known that when the Messiah comes, a new
Torah will he given which will dispense with the current dietary
regulaôns, the Ziz is already considered kosher. The Ziz is one of the
three delicacies--the others are Behemoth and Leviathan--des^ned to
delight the palates of the righteous in the world to come. Tradiôn holds
that Moses himself will serve the Ziz at the messianic banquet.
Once, it was reported, a Ziz's egg accidentally fell to earth and
shakered. The uid ooded sixty ciês, and the shock crushed three
hundred giant cedars in the forests of Lebanon. Fortunately, such
accidents do not happen frequently.
------------------------------------------------------------------------ * The exact locaôn of the "single scriptural menôn (in the Book of
psalms)" is Paslams 50, 11. I don't know how it has been translated to
english, but I would translate it as "I knew all the birds of the
mountains,, and the Ziz of God is with me". Ziz in hebrew is also a small
projecôn, usually in a wall or stone.
* The month of Tishri is the rst Hebrew month, and it's rst day is
the day in which god begins to judge all beings. The 22/9/96 is also the
9th of Tishri, and the 10th is the last day of judgment.
* For those of you who may somehow nd access to Hebrew scripts, the
so called "Sigh^ng" of the Ziz appears in the Talmud, Bava Batra, Chapter
5, page 73.
* I might be able to get informaôn about Behemoth and
Leviathan, if
people want it. They are much like the Ziz, accept for the fact that
Behemoth is a large mammal and Leviathan is a giant whale (much like the
one from T$R's Monshae seing).

Akiva Esterson
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 14:18:12 +0200
Subject: Combat rules from Jag

Hi!
This is basically what I think of some GREAT house rules posted on

Jag's Mythus Page (hkp://www.crater.com/toray/mythus.html). According to
info on the page, the E-mail address is spechko@T8000.com, but is is
possiable that that is a mistake.
Some of this stu has implicaôns on the SPACING OF ACTIONS thread
we had awhile ago.
Anyway, I'm going to type what I think in CAPS. Note that I didn't
quote the enêr doc.
*************************************************************************
Combat:
Determining Iniâ^ve:
Players begin ac^vity during a CT based on their appropriate Speed
Atrribute (PMSpd for melee, etc). This is determined by subtrac^ng their
appropriate speed akribute from 25. Second and later akacks occur at
intervals based on the character's weapon's wpn speed, strength, and armor
penalty (NOT including their shield, if any). Here's the formula for
working out your character's interval with each weapon:
Int=Wpn's SFPen + armor's SFPen - (PMPow-Wpn's Min PMPow)
That is, for every point of strength the weilder has over the weapon's
Minimum PMPow requirement, he may reduce the interval by one.
1 is the lowest possible iniâ^ve.
FIRST OF ALL, LET ME SAY THAT HAVING A FIXED NUMBER INSTEAD OF
INITIATIVE ROLLS IS GOING TO MAKE SOME PEOPLE'S LIVES _MUCH_ EASIER.
HOWEVER, HOW MUCH SENSE DO YOU GUYS THINK THAT MAKES? RANDOMNESS WAS
ALWAYS SOMETHING IMPORTANT IN RPG COMBAT. YES, I ADMIT IT MAKES SOME
SENSE THAT CREATURS LIKE THE lightning quick mummy FROM NECROPOLIS WILL
ALWAYS ATTACK FIRST, BUT ITS QUIRCK TOOK CARE OF THAT.
ALSO, I THINK I'D CHANGE THE NUMBER FROM WHICH YOU SUBTRACT THE PMSpd
TO 30, AS THAT IS THE MAXIMUM FOR A [HUMAN] ATTRIBUTE.
LASTLY, TO MAKE MONSTERS REALY TUFF, I THINK I'D DROP THAT "1 IS THE
LOWEST POSSIABLE INITIATIVE" RULE.
If two or more characters go in a given segment, the one with the
highest appropriate speed akribute goes rst, unless one is quickened.
WHY CANT YOU HAVE TWO HPS ATTACKING AT THE SAME SEGMENT?
A CT lasts 30 segments (3 seconds). Any akacks that would come aver
this point are lost.
30 MAKES SENSE. DOES A TOTAL SUPRISE STILL LAST 20? DOES HIGH STEEP
CHANGE THE NUMBER OF ATTACKS AT ALL?
A charm goes o on the caster's iniâ^ve the following CT, and the
caster may use the segment Following that to begin his or her next acôn.
Movement is possible ANY number of ^mes in a CT, provided the total
distance moved is no more than a half move for the persona involved
(unless the persona wishes to give up all akacks and make a full move).
Movement iniâ^ve is calculated at a rate of 1 segment per hex, and the
character's miniature shall move on the board every segment.
I'M NOT USING MINIATURES YET...
In the interest of playability, I'll allow movement even during the
^me that a character would be swinging a weapon (note, therefore, that it
is possible to take a step on 25, and land a bakle axe blow on a target
you've just moved into range for on 26). Standard penalês to FAC for
movement apply.
(THE RULES DON'T LIST A PENALTY FOR THE 1/2 MOVEMENT. SHOULD THERE BE
ONE?)
quickened personas get a -5 segment iniâ^ve bonus, their interval
is halved, and they may move a quickened half move (a normal full move) at
a rate of 2 hexes per segment, and s^ll akack, or a quickened full move
(double normal movement rate) at the cost of geing no akacks.
O Hand akacks and Floren^ne Figh^ng When, for
whatever reason, a character's primary hand is out of combat (holding onto
a rope, etc), a persona may choose to ght with his or her o-hand. He
uses his normal BAC and # of akacks, but all acôns are performed at 1
DR harder (i.e. it's a dicult roll to hit an opponent instead of a
hard).
THAT MAKES SENSE, BUT THERE IS NO REFRENCE TO A "NORMAL NUMBER OF
ATTACKS" IN THESE RULES.
When using a weapon in one's o hand at the Same ^me as one is using
a weapon in one's primary hand, akacks from the o-hand weapon are
treated as having the STEEP of the persona's Weapons, Special Skills
(oren^ne) skill for purposes of determining BAC and # of akacks. If a
persona does not have the oren^ne skill, then this is 0 STEEP, + the
weapon's WP, meaning the BAC will be the weapon's weapon points, and the
persona will get 1 akack or parry with that hand.
NOW THERE IS A SECTION ABOUT HIT SEVERATY. IF YOU ARE INTERESTED,
LOOK AT THE WEB PAGE. HOWEVER, I THINK THE NORMAL HIT-LOCATION RULES ARE
COMPLICATED ENOUGH...
One more qusôn: why can't I nd the Hit-Locaôn Table on the
GM-SCREEN??????????
(and for whoever it was that wanted to know from where we all where:)
Akiva Esterson
Mevo Modi'im
ISRAEL
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 13:06:11 -0400
In-Reply-To: <199609220643.CAA10284@beasley.cris.com>

> (MJW)
> One might reasonably disagree here with the arguement that the above example
> of the quadra^c formula cons^tuted something that was memorized but not
> known. I would ask if Mike(no oense here just disagreement) has forgoken
> his mutliplicaôn tables. The forgeing and inability to use the
> mul^plicaôn tables 1-9 would be comparable to forgeing an actually
> known fact. I would dene a known cas^ng as a known fact.

But if you haven't looked at mul^plicaôn tables over years, you might
have to think about it for a bit (uh...Recallable?) :)

> (MJW)
> In the maker of cas^ngs being complicated(more so than mul^plicaôn) I
> would argue that Stephen Hawking or Carl Sagan denied the use of mathema^cs
> for many years would s^ll be able to apply mathema^cs when once again
> allowed to with rela^ve ease,because they had become so familiar with the
> knowledge previously. My understanding of the Mythus game is that HP's begin
> with knowledge that was acquired through years of study.

So, by your deniôn there, an HP could never just "put a studyable
cas^ng into known" over a couple weeks, even if he had a slot open, since
it would, but your own words, take "years of study." I think you're
backing yourself into a hole here...

But, then again, everyone's on their own with this system... :)

Jesse
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 10:47:01 -0600
From: Gary Spechko <spechko@NUCLEUS.COM>
Subject: Re: Combat rules from Jag

Hi folks. I'm back <grin>. Changed email addresses months ago. Must not
have changed it on the Mythus page.. sorry. I can always be reached as
toray@crater.com (I own the server).

Take care,
Gary / Jag / Toray / etc.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 16:40:10 -0400

At 01:06 PM 9/22/96 -0400, you wrote:
>> (MJW)
>> One might reasonably disagree here with the arguement that the above example
>> of the quadra^c formula cons^tuted something that was memorized but not
>> known. I would ask if Mike(no oense here just disagreement) has forgoken
>> his mutliplicaôn tables. The forgeing and inability to use the
>> mul^plicaôn tables 1-9 would be comparable to forgeing an actually
>> known fact. I would dene a known cas^ng as a known fact.
>
>But if you haven't looked at mul^plicaôn tables over years, you might
>have to think about it for a bit (uh...Recallable?) :)

(MJW)
If you use the above example, all knowledge is recallable. The human mind
does have to nd and retrieve any informaôn the person wants. I do not
consider having to recall in a maker of seconds what 8x4 is (32) the same
as recallable knowledge in the Mythus game which requires a concentrated
eort on the part of the HP(thus the called for roll) to remember.

>
>> (MJW)
>> In the maker of cas^ngs being complicated(more so than mul^plicaôn) I
>> would argue that Stephen Hawking or Carl Sagan denied the use of mathema^cs
>> for many years would s^ll be able to apply mathema^cs when once again
>> allowed to with rela^ve ease,because they had become so familiar with the
>> knowledge previously. My understanding of the Mythus game is that HP's begin
>> with knowledge that was acquired through years of study.
>
>So, by your deniôn there, an HP could never just "put a studyable
>cas^ng into known" over a couple weeks, even if he had a slot open, since
>it would, but your own words, take "years of study." I think you're
>backing yourself into a hole here...

(MJW)
No,not realy. The years of study refer to all the cas^ngs(collec^vely) in
the HP's known list. Could a studyable be moved to a known in a couple of
week? I have already answered this quesôn. I suggested the ^me scale for
study be one week per cas^ng grade, so a grade 9 cas^ng would have to be
studied for 9 weeks. A studyable can be moved via study to the recallable
list(not the known list). Then if one makes a recallable role at DR hard it
can me moved to known cas^ngs. The roll indica^ng that it has become
permanent knowledge. In the event that the known slot is open and recallable
is not the cas^ng could not be recorded as recallable but I would use the
same procedure for placing it into known(study and then the roll). I do
allow with less study and a successful roll an HP to move cas^ngs from
recallable to known.
>
>But, then again, everyone's on their own with this system... :)

(MJW)
As I stated in previous post, I believe a JM should decide this and other
issues on the basis of what works best for him/herself and their individual
playing group.
>
>Jesse
>
>Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 20:29:42 +0000
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.93.960922130241.10533A-100000@autarch.acsu.bualo.edu>

On Sun, 22 Sep 1996, Jesse T Gris wrote:

> > (MJW)
> > One might reasonably disagree here with the arguement that the above example
> > of the quadra^c formula cons^tuted something that was memorized but not
> > known. I would ask if Mike(no oense here just disagreement) has forgoken
> > his mutliplicaôn tables. The forgeing and inability to use the
> > mul^plicaôn tables 1-9 would be comparable to forgeing an actually
> > known fact. I would dene a known cas^ng as a known fact.
>
> But if you haven't looked at mul^plicaôn tables over years, you might
> have to think about it for a bit (uh...Recallable?) :)

I've preky much said my bit at this point, and I'll let it stand on its
own, but.....

As a maker of fact, despite much drilling 15+ years ago, yes, I *do*
occasionally have trouble with my mul^plicaôn tables from ^me to
^me. 2's, 3's, 4's, 5's, no problem. I have to stop and think about
certain combinaôns though (6x8, 7x8, 6x9, 7x9, 8x9, 12+ x anything).
Addiôn is certainly well-drilled due to gaming, as are certain lower
mul^ples (even certain fracôns ;-) ), but I'd argue that said tables
were very much known and *aren't any more*, since I no longer (a) review
them nor (b) need them. I have a calculator :-)

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 00:07:24 -0400

Here is my thought on the subject of memorizaôn.

1. Any persona capable of using Cas^ngs has a number of known and an equal
number of recallable, that number based on the HP's status and ATTRIBUTES.
This number is a subset of the Studyable Cas^ngs.
2. Such a persona picks Cas^ngs from the tomes he or she starts the game
with. The tomes represent the number of Studyable Cas^ngs, and are decided
by the JM as some fracôn of all the Cas^ngs in a given area. The HP
posseses one tome per Cas^ng area but each tome may not be as
representa^vely complete as any other given one. For example, a Green
Dweomercraever of 51 STEEP might have tomes with 50 to 60% of all Green
Cas^ngs (and or General ones, depending on the General Dweomercraev's
STEEP). If that HP also knew some Elemental School Cas^ngs (at STEEP 33,
let us say) his tome might only contain 25% of the Elemental Cas^ngs, or
even less. On the other hand, an Engineer who dabbled in Dweomercraev
(General) might only have a few Studyable Cas^ngs in his/her tomes even at
equivalent STEEP because that worthy concentrates more on other endeavors and
doesn't have the commitment and interest a mage/magician has (else why did
they choose to be an engineer?). The same applies to priests/monks: some
are more devout and scholarly than others and/or have access to beter
libraries.
3. Once the known & recallable are set, only by studying the tomes can they
be changed. I haven't set a real ^me limit yet, but between adventures I
allow the HPs to shue their known and recallable freely from the total
they have in their tomes. During the adventures I've only had a few
instances where a Cas^ng was read from a tome and/or a change was made, so I
allowed a full day of study to change one Cas^ng.
4. To add new Cas^ng to their tomes the HPs must discover them on
adventures or trade among each other. The actual mages/magicians have an
advantage over hedge prac^ôners in my campaign sicne they have access to
professional organizaôns which maintain libraries of Cas^ngs. Of course,
these aren't free, and as a side obligaôn I make the HPs design a new
Specic Cas^ng every ^me they reacha certain break point in STEEP level
before they can advance. This is similar to the "publish-or-perish"
requirements in academia.

As a side note, if we want to represent decay of knowledge we'd have to do
the same for every K/S Area to be realis^c, and that would just be too much
work and not enough fun. How many players actually dedicate APs to raising
their Handicravs/Handiwork STEEP, for example? Not one of mine has yet. Of
course, they are so rich now they can hire handymen to x things for them.
Maybe that is why they go adventuring-to get out of housework...

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 08:10:15 -0500
Subject: Re: The Ziz

> The name Ziz is derived from the varied tastes the bird's esh is said
>to have: it tastes like "this" and it tastes like "that," in Hebrew, ZEH
>VA-ZEH. Even though it is well known that when the Messiah comes, a new
>Torah will he given which will dispense with the current dietary
>regulaôns, the Ziz is already considered kosher. The Ziz is one of the
>three delicacies--the others are Behemoth and Leviathan--des^ned to
>delight the palates of the righteous in the world to come. Tradiôn holds
>that Moses himself will serve the Ziz at the messianic banquet.

I nd this very interes^ng, especially since I just nished reading all

of my Kult List mail. The archetypical bird, mammal and sh will be the
dinner at the messianic banquet. I guess that is a strong encouragement
to kill and eat animals.

Kind of a tangent, but you need to go with these things when they hit you.

Dan "not a vegetarian" Williamson
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:44:35 -0400
Subject: Jewish Tribes on AErth?

The talk of the Ziz made me think about a few things...

Exactly which land(s) contain the people we know on Earth as the Jewish
races. I'm trying to gure out if the Philis^nes or the Shamash are the
Jewish race. It's not that clear to me. Maybe a history bu can help
me--this parallel has no Hebrew religion. I assumed perhaps the people
were absorbed into Egypt via Phillisâ, but they could also be Shamash?

Anybody have theories?
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 11:58:14 +1200
Subject: Re: Jewish Tribes on AErth?

*Heavy French accent*: "I am only going to send zis once" :)

John R. Troy wrote:
>Exactly which land(s) contain the people we know on Earth as the Jewish
>races. I'm trying to gure out if the Philis^nes or the Shamash are the
>Jewish race. It's not that clear to me. Maybe a history bu can help
>me--this parallel has no Hebrew religion. I assumed perhaps the people
>were absorbed into Egypt via Phillisâ, but they could also be Shamash?

The Israelites were ignored in Aerth because of their monotheism, I
suspect, which doesn't t in that well with the rest of the milieu. The
Philis^nes contested Pales^ne with the Israelites, so I think you can

rule them out. I'd say the Israelites were part of the tribes of Shamash,
since the only real dierence between the various tribes of semi^c
peoples was their religion.

There's also a good case for some Phoenician admixture. The much slandered
Jezebel (wife of Ahab, king of Israel) was a Phoenician princess, and I
think some of Solomon's wives were Phoenician, too. This was when the
Phoenicians s^ll lived next door in Tyre, Sidon and so on: they moved to
their colonies in N Africa aver Tyre fell to Alexander.

The Phoenicians on Aerth seem to have taken over some of the medieval roles
of the Jews as money-lenders in addiôn to their trading, as I recall. On
my Aerth, anyway, I'd been thinking the Israelites were split between some
who stayed in Shamash and some who went with (and possibly invigorated) the
Phoenicians.

Malcolm
(Who doesn't trust list server messages any more.)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 19:39:42 -0600
Subject: Quesôn...

Hello. Of Mythus products I have few, and I was hoping that you members
of this excellent list could recommend products that were published that
are good. I have the main book, Mythus Magick, Epic of Aerth, and the
besâry. What else is out there? Thanks, everybody.
Andrew.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 21:53:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Jewish Tribes on AErth?

> Exactly which land(s) contain the people we know on Earth as the
> Jewish races. I'm trying to gure out if the Philis^nes or the
> Shamash are the Jewish race. It's not that clear to me. Maybe
> a history bu can help me--this parallel has no Hebrew religion.

History major here. Happy to help out.

> I assumed perhaps the people were absorbed into Egypt via
> Phillisâ, but they could also be Shamash?

The Shamash represent the Hebrews, Shamash being one of the alternate names
for YHWH.

LKW
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 06:18:02 Z
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?P=E5l=00?= Arild Woje
<pal-arild.woje@BODO.IT.TELENOR.NO>
Subject: Quesôn...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.87.9609231942.A29137-0100000@cwis.isu.edu>

Well, it looks like you've got the essenâls.
I would recomend Necropolis, the only campaignbook
that was published. Other than that, you have the
Mythus Prime, a collecôn of basic rules and some
magic stu, and 6 no. of Journeys, a magazine for
the DJ series. Anything else, anyone?
Regards!
PAW
_---_
(@ @)
-----------------o000--(_)--000o-----------------------P.A. Woje Norwegian Telecom Phone : +47 75 51 24 42
N-8002 Bod|, Norway Telefax : +47 75 51 24 01
R&D department (FoU) Private : +47 75 58 48 71
Pager : +47 96 52 86 13
------------------------------------------------------- (__) (__)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 03:09:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Quesôn...

At 07:39 PM 9/23/96 -0600, you wrote:
>Hello. Of Mythus products I have few, and I was hoping that you members
>of this excellent list could recommend products that were published that
>are good. I have the main book, Mythus Magick, Epic of Aerth, and the
>besâry. What else is out there? Thanks, everybody.
>Andrew.
>
(MJW)
There is also a GM screen, Necropolis(an adventure module), Six issues of
Journeys Magazine, and six issues of Mythic Masters Magazine. Of all the
products I think the one most worth spending the eort to locate would be
Necropolis.

(MJW)
Which reminds me is anyone willing to sell Journeys #4? I would be willing
to trade my extra copy of Journeys #6 for someones extra copy of Journeys #4.
>
Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 00:55:43 -0700
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.87.9609231942.A29137-0100000@cwis.isu.edu>

On Mon, 23 Sep 1996, Andrew Phillips wrote:

> Hello. Of Mythus products I have few, and I was hoping that you members
> of this excellent list could recommend products that were published that
> are good. I have the main book, Mythus Magick, Epic of Aerth, and the
> besâry. What else is out there? Thanks, everybody.
> Andrew.

That's about it... Except you may want the module/book Necropolis. Am
I right people? Aren't those all the books published? Ohh yeah, there
are the Dangerous Journey mags, which never went very far, but of the
ones I got, it helped alot.

Kevin
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 17:20:11 +0200

Hi!
I'm pos^ng some thoughts about "Re: Jewish Tribes on AErth".
>races. I'm trying to gure out if the Philis^nes or the Shamash are
the
>were absorbed into Egypt via Phillisâ, but they could also be
Shamash?
First, let me state that the Epic of AErth does not have any menôn
of the Jews. The Philiâns are basically AEgypôns, and Shamash are
early Syrians/Babylonians (their capital is Damascus!) or something like
that, and are no more Jews then the AEgypôns. HOWEVER, it is VERY
possible that on AErth, the Jews never separated from them (Abraham came
from Ur and Haran, which fall in the area of the Shamash kingdom. If this
list supported graphics, I'd scan you a map. To bad...)
> The Israelites were ignored in AErth because of their monotheism, I

>suspect, which doesn't t in that well with the rest of the milieu.
The
Your right. Another problem will be that according to Judaism and
sort of Magic-use calls for a death penalty.
>Philis^nes contested Pales^ne with the Israelites, so I think you can
>rule them out. I'd say the Israelites were part of the tribes of
Shamash,
>since the only real dierence between the various tribes of semi^c
>peoples was their religion.
Makes sense.
>The Phoenicians on AErth seem to have taken over some of the medieval
roles
>of the Jews as money-lenders in addiôn to their trading, as I recall.
On
I recall thinking that while reading the book... It's a very good
line of thought, but similariês such as this aren't enough to prove
anything. Anyway, the phonecians where traders in the real world too.
>my AErth, anyway, I'd been thinking the Israelites were split between
some
>who stayed in Shamash and some who went with (and possibly invigorated)
the
>Phoenicians.
A few possibiliês:
* The Jews never existed. Abraham was never chosen.
* The Magick powers of other naôns was powerful enough to either:
a) Overpower the belief that followed the miracles certain Jewish
leaders performed.
or b) Destroy them along the way.
* Jacob went to AEgypt (as he did on Earth), but the AEgypôn's
powers (being THE strongest in AErth) kept the Jews there as slaves.
* Jacob went to AEgypt, but was never enslaved; he was a powerful
dwemercraev. His descendants live there today, perhaps s^ll in Goshen
as was the case when they arrived. Joseph's descendants might s^ll be
the Royal Vizier, or Royal Princes; in that case, the people of Phillisâ
might actually be Jews (an important note: the name "Jews" that not exist
even is the ^me of Solomon; it came from the fact the tribe of Juda was
the last to be forced out of Israel, and that [mostly] was the only one to
survive un^l today. So use the name Israelites, or something.)
>History major here. Happy to help out.
>> I assumed perhaps the people were absorbed into Egypt via
>> Phillisâ, but they could also be Shamash?
>The Shamash represent the Hebrews, Shamash being one of the alternate
names
>for YHWH.
Humm... didn't think about that. Your right, although it should be
"Shem haShem". HOWEVER, the religion of the Shamash is Babylonian (Epic
of AErth p. 160), and that pantheon does not include that god. So maybe
the name is accidental?
Akiva Esterson
Modi'im (anyone want to talk Macabies here?)

ISRAEL
P.S. Does anyone know how I can change the name that appears in the
beginning of my messages? I'm using my dad's account, and seem to
remember reading something about this in the Reference Card, but now I
can't nd it...
Thanks
Oh, and is anyone interested in that info about the other Jewish
monsters?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 10:29:08 -0600
In-Reply-To: <"18706 96/09/24
02:18*/c=no/admd=telemax/prmd=telenor/o=it/ou=bodo/s=woje/g=pal-arild/"@MHS>

Thanks everybody, for the responses towards other Mythus products. The
consensus seems to be that Necropolis is preky good, so I'll start
looking for it. Thanks again!
Andrew.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 21:25:47 +0200
Subject: Jews in AErth

Hi!
I'm pos^ng some thoughts about "Re: Jewish Tribes on AErth".
>races. I'm trying to gure out if the Philis^nes or the Shamash are
the
>were absorbed into Egypt via Phillisâ, but they could also be
Shamash?
First, let me state that the Epic of AErth does not have any menôn
of the Jews. The Philiâns are basically AEgypôns, and Shamash are
early Syrians/Babylonians (their capital is Damascus!) or something like
that, and are no more Jews then the AEgypôns. HOWEVER, it is VERY
possible that on AErth, the Jews never separated from them (Abraham came
from Ur and Haran, which fall in the area of the Shamash kingdom. If this
list supported graphics, I'd scan you a map. To bad...)
> The Israelites were ignored in AErth because of their monotheism, I
>suspect, which doesn't t in that well with the rest of the milieu.
The
Your right. Another problem will be that according to Judaism and
sort of Magic-use calls for a death penalty.
>Philis^nes contested Pales^ne with the Israelites, so I think you can

>rule them out. I'd say the Israelites were part of the tribes of
Shamash,
>since the only real dierence between the various tribes of semi^c
>peoples was their religion.
Makes sense.
>The Phoenicians on AErth seem to have taken over some of the medieval
roles
>of the Jews as money-lenders in addiôn to their trading, as I recall.
On
I recall thinking that while reading the book... It's a very good
line of thought, but similariês such as this aren't enough to prove
anything. Anyway, the phonecians where traders in the real world too.
>my AErth, anyway, I'd been thinking the Israelites were split between
some
>who stayed in Shamash and some who went with (and possibly invigorated)
the
>Phoenicians.
A few possibiliês:
* The Jews never existed. Abraham was never chosen.
* The Magick powers of other naôns was powerful enough to either:
a) Overpower the belief that followed the miracles certain Jewish
leaders performed.
or b) Destroy them along the way.
* Jacob went to AEgypt (as he did on Earth), but the AEgypôn's
powers (being THE strongest in AErth) kept the Jews there as slaves.
* Jacob went to AEgypt, but was never enslaved; he was a powerful
dwemercraev. His descendants live there today, perhaps s^ll in Goshen
as was the case when they arrived. Joseph's descendants might s^ll be
the Royal Vizier, or Royal Princes; in that case, the people of Phillisâ
might actually be Jews (an important note: the name "Jews" that not exist
even is the ^me of Solomon; it came from the fact the tribe of Juda was
the last to be forced out of Israel, and that [mostly] was the only one to
survive un^l today. So use the name Israelites, or something.)
>History major here. Happy to help out.
>> I assumed perhaps the people were absorbed into Egypt via
>> Phillisâ, but they could also be Shamash?
>The Shamash represent the Hebrews, Shamash being one of the alternate
names
>for YHWH.
Humm... didn't think about that. Your right, although it should be
"Shem haShem". HOWEVER, the religion of the Shamash is Babylonian (Epic
of AErth p. 160), and that pantheon does not include that god. So maybe
the name is accidental?
Akiva Esterson
Modi'im (anyone want to talk Macabies here?)
ISRAEL
P.S. Does anyone know how I can change the name that appears in the
beginning of my messages? I'm using my dad's account, and seem to
remember reading something about this in the Reference Card, but now I
can't nd it...
Thanks
Oh, and is anyone interested in that info about the other Jewish
monsters?
.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 21:11:26 -0400
Subject: Thanks for the Informaôn

Well, I'm glad that I got that informaôn.

FWIW, when I asked about Jewish people, I was interested in the indigenous
people, rather than the religious community. I assume that the
monotheis^c religions never manifested themselves on this alternate
probability. Gary has avoided using those, all the gods came from
Mythology with a few likle created bits. I note that Gary didn't even use
Demogorgon because he considered it Judeo-Chrisân rather than Greecian.

I do assume that Shamash was a deliberate use by EGG, rather than a
coincidence.

While on the subject, it should also be noted that Gygax himself has
ancestral ês to Philis^ne immigrants to Crete--the name Gygax being a
german alteraôn of Gigantos, which is the word for Giant--and the family
lore suggests that they emmigrated aver "a noted forefather was fouly
felled by a cowardly missle"...in other words, David defeated the Biblical
Goliath, who may be Gary Gygax's ancestor.

(Hope none of the an^-RPG religious groups ever get that info, though. I
can see the perversions of that fact being tread through an^-RPG propaganda).

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 22:30:35 -0400
Subject: Mythus products available

Hello all,
Just thought I'd let you all know that the Dragon Trove online gaming store
has Dangerous Journeys material for sale. Check the web site at
hkp://www.dragontrove.com/

I'm not alliated with dragon trove in any way, just thought someone might
need some books.

Jason
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 17:05:25 -0500
Subject: Cas^ng Memorizaôn Rules.
X-To: "Theodore S. Meade" <tsm@eeyore.idm.com>

Guys this is how I decided to handle moving cas^ngs between the various
kinds of memorizaôns. In my seing there are no Full Prac^ôners.
I feel that either all mages should be FPs or none should be, that is my
personal feeling and really don't want to have to delete an en^re
argument on this again. :)

House Rules follow:

Cas^ng Memorizaôn

Number of Cas^ngs Known is equal to MMCap.
Number of Cas^ngs Recallable is equal to MMCap.
Number of Casings Studyable is unlimited.

To cast a Recallable cas^ng requires that the HP rst recall the cas^ng by
succeeding in a DR Moderate vs. MMCap per CT un^l successfull. On the
following CT the cas^ng may be cast. A Special Failure on this roll will
result in the cas^ng being moved to the Studyable Cas^ngs list.

A Special Failure when akemp^ng to cast a Known Cas^ng will result in it
being moved to the Recallable list.
A Special Failure when akemp^ng to cast a Recallable Cas^ng will result in
it being moved to the Studyable list.

To move a cas^ng from the Studyable list to the Recallable list requires 6
hours of intensive study per cas^ng grade with at least 6 hours of study per
day and a DR Hard against MMCategory. If successful it will displace one
other cas^ng that has not been used recently at random to the Studyable list.
If a Special Failure is rolled then one Recallable cas^ng at random is moved
to the Studyable list and no cas^ng replaces it. If a Special Success is
rolled then no Recallable cas^ng is displaced or the cas^ng is moved to the
Known list and possibly displaces one on the Known list. Displacement is only
possible when there are no more spaces on the Recallable list.

To move a cas^ng from the Recallable list to the Known list requires 4 hours
of intensive study per cas^ng grade with at least 6 hours of study per day
and a DR Dicult against MMCategory. If successful it will displace one
other cas^ng that has not been used recently at random to the Recallable
list. If a Special Failure is rolled then one Known cas^ng at random is
moved to the Studyable list and the cas^ng is moved onto the Studyable list
and no cas^ng replaces it. If a Special Success is rolled then no Known
cas^ng is displaced. Displacement is only possible when there are no more
spaces on the Known list.

Copyright? Why would I want to copyright this? The only possible reason is
to keep TSR from it, and I doubt that would work. That should cover
everything.

Dan Williamson
Minion of Greg, however I realize that I am not prepared for the level of
bloodshed CORPS would have in a Fantasy seing so Mythus is a second best.

PS. Jesse? I think you or Mike Phillips were working on a Aria-Mythus
hybrid. Is there anything you could share with me. I am preparing the
same for my game.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 18:03:12 -0400
Subject: Mul^plying Damage

>I nally had a chance to look up the page for this ROF point of contenôn.

>Page 224 of the Mythus Handbook, immediately under the heading Number >of
>Akacks. It says that Bows, xbows, etc. use the ROF # directly from the
>weapons tables with no mul^plier due to STEEP.

>While I was reviewing the rules I no^ced the entry for hit locaôn damage
>mul^pliers wherein it says that the mul^plier is only applied to the
rolled
>damage, not pluses. Something my group has been doing wrong/dierently
>since day one.

I don't think so. I looked all over the Mythus book and I couldn't nd
anything that said you don't mul^ply the adjustments. In fact, the example
of combat specically states in two places that rolled damge plus adjustment
is modifed by Strike Locaôn.

Of course, that example of combat also contains numerous errors, so this may
not be valid. But I have always assumed that adjustments are mul^plied
along with the rolled damage.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 21:03:21 -0400

Subject: Re: Mul^plying Damage

At 06:03 PM 9/27/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>I nally had a chance to look up the page for this ROF point of contenôn.
>
>>Page 224 of the Mythus Handbook, immediately under the heading Number >of
>>Akacks. It says that Bows, xbows, etc. use the ROF # directly from the
>>weapons tables with no mul^plier due to STEEP.

(MJW)
No, it does not. The full paragraph reads,"Unless using a propelled (not
thrown) missile weapon,this will vary with the an HP's STEEP. Consult the
descripôn of of the individual K/S Area for details. For missile
weapons,however, it varies with the weapon being used. See the weapons
tables on pages 236 and 237".

(MJW)
First of all the weapons tables in my book for missile weapons are on pages
238 and 239. Next if you consult the Combat,Hand Weapons,Missile K/S on
pg.164 it clearly states that "Also, while each missile weapon is listed
with a basic ROF(rate of re), a persona's STEEP level confers a modier
(bonus or penalty) to that ROF,as summarized on the Missile ROF Modiers
table below. Mul^ply the the weapon's listed rate of re by the mul^plier
listed for STEEP to determine the actual number of akacks a persona can
make with the weapon".

(MJW)
This means if you are using a short self bow with the listed ROF of 1.5 on
pg.239 and your STEEP is 31-45 you have a ROF of 3. The chart on pg.164 list
the mul^plier fot this STEEP as 2. Thus ROF 1.5 x 2 = ROF 3. Three akacks
per CT.

(MJW)
Hope this clears up the maker.

>
>>While I was reviewing the rules I no^ced the entry for hit locaôn damage
>>mul^pliers wherein it says that the mul^plier is only applied to the
>rolled
>>damage, not pluses. Something my group has been doing wrong/dierently
>>since day one.
>
>I don't think so. I looked all over the Mythus book and I couldn't nd
>anything that said you don't mul^ply the adjustments.

(MJW)
You might try reading pg.229 on the Mythus book. under the heading Strike
Locaôn And Table second paragraph where it states "The damage modier
represents the factor by which the rolled damage is mul^plied".

In fact, the example
>of combat specically states in two places that rolled damge plus adjustment
>is modifed by Strike Locaôn.

(MJW)
What page are you working from here? In fact the book reads on page 223 in
the shaded box headed Physical Combat,Lethal Summary under Two: Applying
Physical Damage (A) Once a strike locaôn has been determined, the akacker
may then roll damage and mul^ply by the Strike Locaôn's damage table...".

(MJW)
Both of these passages indicate that rolled damage is to be mul^plied and
that bonuses are added on averwards.
>
>Of course, that example of combat also contains numerous errors, so this may
>not be valid. But I have always assumed that adjustments are mul^plied
>along with the rolled damage.

(MJW)
The original poster of this message admiked that they were doing this wrong
from day one. Your assumpôn was simply incorrect.

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 16:12:54 -0400
Subject: Re: HTH-Non-Lethal

>On 221-3 in vol.1, when the rules cover HTH-Non-Lethal akacks, there is >no
>menôn of the role of heka engendered armor. This is not important in the
>overpowering rules but it could be crucial in the stunning rules.

>Does anyone have any suggesôns on how to integrate heka armor into >these
rules?
>If not, or even if yes, does anyone have a beker set of HTH-Non-Lethal
>rules?

Well, I assume you mean either Physical armor with an enchantment or a
Cas^ng like "Armor, Physical."

In the rst instance, the JM should have specied the armor's bonus when
he/she integrated it into the campaign. Either it provides a bonus versus
Stunning or else it works against all types of damage, and I'd just add that
to the normal armor ra^ng to nd the total.

In the second case, my ins^nct is to say that it would indeed reduce
Physical damage from an HTH akack in exactly the same way, by reducing it on
a point for point basis un^l the protecôn is all used up.

DOn
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 16:40:32 -0400

As far as I know, there isn't a deniôn of ""propelled missle weapon. I
assumed bows were, but the OPs in Necropolis all have ROFs consistant with
the STEEP modicaôn, so now I am not sure. My best guess is that weapons
which require more than a CT to use are the ones which do not get the ROF
modier, such as crossbows, slings, and so forth. Maybe I'll dig up a book
and make a list.

I agree with Lisa that the bonuses should be mul^plied along with the rolled
damage, but I haven't looked at that combat example in awhile, so I'll see
what it says.

DOn
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 12:57:04 -0400
Subject: Damage Mul^ply
In-Reply-To: <199609282007.QAA06738@mailhub.acsu.bualo.edu>

> >>While I was reviewing the rules I no^ced the entry for hit locaôn damage
> >>mul^pliers wherein it says that the mul^plier is only applied to the
> >rolled
> >>damage, not pluses. Something my group has been doing wrong/dierently
> >>since day one.
> >
> >I don't think so. I looked all over the Mythus book and I couldn't nd
> >anything that said you don't mul^ply the adjustments.
>
> (MJW)
> You might try reading pg.229 on the Mythus book. under the heading Strike
> Locaôn And Table second paragraph where it states "The damage modier
> represents the factor by which the rolled damage is mul^plied".
>
> In fact, the example
> >of combat specically states in two places that rolled damge plus adjustment
> >is modifed by Strike Locaôn.
>> > (MJW)
> What page are you working from here? In fact the book reads on page 223 in
> the shaded box headed Physical Combat,Lethal Summary under Two: Applying
> Physical Damage (A) Once a strike locaôn has been determined, the akacker
> may then roll damage and mul^ply by the Strike Locaôn's damage table...".
>
> (MJW)
> Both of these passages indicate that rolled damage is to be mul^plied and
> that bonuses are added on averwards.
> >
> >Of course, that example of combat also contains numerous errors, so this may
> >not be valid. But I have always assumed that adjustments are mul^plied
> >along with the rolled damage.
>
> (MJW)
> The original poster of this message admiked that they were doing this wrong
> from day one. Your assumpôn was simply incorrect.

He said they "MAY" have been doing it wrong. I think he's been doing it
right (adding all bonuses then mul^plying).

Ah. I have it right here. Page 234, Mythus book 1. And I quote:

"Finally, Karkhan takes his remaining swing with the massive bastard
sword, with the intent of cleaving the bandit it two, with a FAC of 56, he
rolls and get a 54--a hit! The warrior's blade does a whopping 5D6
damage, plus 10 points from adjustments, for a gross total of 28 points of
Physical damage. The Strike Locaôn table indicates that it was a hit to
an Ultra-Vital area, and mul^plying the damage ^mes 4 yields a terric
112 points of damage!"

Okay, now, (18*4)+10 does not equal 112. (28*4), however, does.

Don't trust an assumpôn.

Besides, this way makes one hell of a lot more sense.

Jesse
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 21:00:46 +0300
Subject: Re: Cas^ng Memorizaôn Rules.

In-Reply-To: <m0v6dhE-000AG6C@Uucp1.mcs.net> from "Dan Williamson" at Sep 26,
96 05:05:25 pm

[Some text blasted...]
>
> Cas^ng Memorizaôn
>
> Number of Cas^ngs Known is equal to MMCap.
> Number of Cas^ngs Recallable is equal to MMCap.
> Number of Casings Studyable is unlimited.

I think number of Studyable is limited to the wealth of caster ;)
>
> To cast a Recallable cas^ng requires that the HP rst recall the cas^ng by
> succeeding in a DR Moderate vs. MMCap per CT un^l successfull. On the
> following CT the cas^ng may be cast. A Special Failure on this roll will
> result in the cas^ng being moved to the Studyable Cas^ngs list.
>
> A Special Failure when akemp^ng to cast a Known Cas^ng will result in it
> being moved to the Recallable list.
> A Special Failure when akemp^ng to cast a Recallable Cas^ng will result in
> it being moved to the Studyable list.
>

This makes a lot fun! (Almost noone of my players didn't have any
money for those _expensive_ tomes of magic... When they must move spell
from recallable to studyable, it's lost, because he won't have it in any
book...)

> To move a cas^ng from the Studyable list to the Recallable list requires 6
> hours of intensive study per cas^ng grade with at least 6 hours of study per
> day and a DR Hard against MMCategory. If successful it will displace one

I think you should use MMSpd in this formula, how long one try to
study spell will take. (And it'll make some dierence between magincians
with same MMCap, but dierent MMSpeeds... Magincian can be fast to
memerize things with lower power...) I think (30 - MMSpd)/2 hours per
grade might be good enough.

> other cas^ng that has not been used recently at random to the Studyable list.
> If a Special Failure is rolled then one Recallable cas^ng at random is moved
> to the Studyable list and no cas^ng replaces it. If a Special Success is
> rolled then no Recallable cas^ng is displaced or the cas^ng is moved to the
> Known list and possibly displaces one on the Known list. Displacement is only
> possible when there are no more spaces on the Recallable list.
>
I think caster might also try to forget one par^cular cas^ng,
instead of random replacement. (It'll take some ^me, I think at least as
much as to memorize something, and DR Moderate roll against MMPow.
Succesful roll means, he wasn't able to do it... You might start to hate
your inability to forget...)

> To move a cas^ng from the Recallable list to the Known list requires 4 hours
> of intensive study per cas^ng grade with at least 6 hours of study per day
> and a DR Dicult against MMCategory. If successful it will displace one
> other cas^ng that has not been used recently at random to the Recallable
> list. If a Special Failure is rolled then one Known cas^ng at random is
> moved to the Studyable list and the cas^ng is moved onto the Studyable list
> and no cas^ng replaces it. If a Special Success is rolled then no Known
> cas^ng is displaced. Displacement is only possible when there are no more
> spaces on the Known list.
>
> Dan Williamson
> Minion of Greg, however I realize that I am not prepared for the level of
> bloodshed CORPS would have in a Fantasy seing so Mythus is a second best.
>
Aver all, quite good stu. All we need, is modify all those
^mes correspond with MMSpd...

Kautsu.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 14:14:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Damage Mul^ply

At 12:57 PM 9/29/96 -0400, you wrote:
> > >>While I was reviewing the rules I no^ced the entry for hit locaôn
damage
> > >>mul^pliers wherein it says that the mul^plier is only applied to the
> > >rolled
> > >>damage, not pluses. Something my group has been doing wrong/dierently
> > >>since day one.
> > >
> > >I don't think so. I looked all over the Mythus book and I couldn't nd
> > >anything that said you don't mul^ply the adjustments.
> >
> > (MJW)
> > You might try reading pg.229 on the Mythus book. under the heading Strike
> > Locaôn And Table second paragraph where it states "The damage modier
> > represents the factor by which the rolled damage is mul^plied".
> >
> > In fact, the example
> > >of combat specically states in two places that rolled damge plus
adjustment
> > >is modifed by Strike Locaôn.
> >> > (MJW)
> > What page are you working from here? In fact the book reads on page 223 in
> > the shaded box headed Physical Combat,Lethal Summary under Two: Applying
> > Physical Damage (A) Once a strike locaôn has been determined, the akacker
> > may then roll damage and mul^ply by the Strike Locaôn's damage table...".
> >
> > (MJW)
> > Both of these passages indicate that rolled damage is to be mul^plied and
> > that bonuses are added on averwards.
> > >
> > >Of course, that example of combat also contains numerous errors, so
this may
> > >not be valid. But I have always assumed that adjustments are mul^plied
> > >along with the rolled damage.
> >
> > (MJW)
> > The original poster of this message admiked that they were doing this wrong
> > from day one. Your assumpôn was simply incorrect.
>
> He said they "MAY" have been doing it wrong. I think he's been doing it
> right (adding all bonuses then mul^plying).
>
> Ah. I have it right here. Page 234, Mythus book 1. And I quote:
>
> "Finally, Karkhan takes his remaining swing with the massive bastard
> sword, with the intent of cleaving the bandit it two, with a FAC of 56, he
> rolls and get a 54--a hit! The warrior's blade does a whopping 5D6
> damage, plus 10 points from adjustments, for a gross total of 28 points of
> Physical damage. The Strike Locaôn table indicates that it was a hit to
> an Ultra-Vital area, and mul^plying the damage ^mes 4 yields a terric
> 112 points of damage!"
>
> Okay, now, (18*4)+10 does not equal 112. (28*4), however, does.

> Don't trust an assumpôn.
>
> Besides, this way makes one hell of a lot more sense.
>
> Jesse
>
>Jesse,

(MJW)
Sorry, but read the post again it says "Something my group has been doing
wrong/dierently since day one". I would like to see if the original
poster can nd it where it states "not pluses".

(MJW)
I agree that the example from pg.234 does indeed state exactly what you
quoted. However, the stated game rules do not. The rules quoted above only
menôn mul^plying "rolled" damage.

(MJW)
Reading your example and the one on pg.233 second column 4th paragraph,about
the sixth sentence "Aver rolling for the Strike Locaôn, Dirk mul^plies
the full rollable damage of 18 by the resul^ng Super-Vital factor of 3.(Had
Dirk possessed a higher BAC with his bow, he would have added that bonus
before mul^plying the value ^mes 3!)".

(MJW)
I now agree as that in the above sentence is says to add in bonuses before
mul^plying. The only place in the book it seems to say one way or another.
I admit I was in error on this. However, two points are, this should have
been stated in the rules not just an example and if the original poster can
site where it says you are NOT to mul^ply bonuses we then have a
contradicôn of rules.

(MJW)
So, un^l someone comes forward with the text that states you do not
mul^lply pluses I agree that it is correct to do so. I apologize for the error.

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 21:02:50 +0100

Ani Kauâinen wrote:
> This makes a lot fun! (Almost noone of my players didn't have
> any money for those _expensive_ tomes of magic... When they must move
> spell from recallable to studyable, it's lost, because he won't have
> it in any book...)

Why that? You normally LEARN the spells from a book. S^ll - you can
surely write down any spell you have in mind. Otherwise you wouldn't
have it in mind, eh?

Joerg
- "Love is the Dance of Eternity"
Dream Theater: "Metropolis Part I"
hkp://www.student.uni-kl.de/~neulist
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 22:19:22 +0300

In-Reply-To: <324ED5E9.583E@student.uni-kl.de> from "Joerg Neulist" at Sep 29,
96 09:02:50 pm

>
> Ani Kauâinen wrote:
> > This makes a lot fun! (Almost noone of my players didn't have
> > any money for those _expensive_ tomes of magic... When they must move
> > spell from recallable to studyable, it's lost, because he won't have
> > it in any book...)
>
> Why that? You normally LEARN the spells from a book. S^ll - you can
> surely write down any spell you have in mind. Otherwise you wouldn't
> have it in mind, eh?

Yep, they can write them down, and has already done it, if they
had enough money for it... (Those books are quite expensive). And nobody
is dweomecraver, thus it's closer to their view of magic: They've learned
those spells from teacher and won't even think about carrying those heavy
tomes...
IMHO: There's many heka-users, who won't need those books; Their
teacher taught those spells to them, so they won't forget them, and they
won't know such wast amount of spells, as dweomecravers, who has
sacriced most of their life to study magic. If they forget any of their
spells, they must seek someone willing to theach them, but that's life.

Kautsu
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 18:56:48 -0400

I don't have the books here with me at workk,
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 19:14:17 -0400

I don't have the books here at work, but I think if you look around page 231
in the rst book there is a long example of combat. In one place it clearly
says that rolled damage plus bonuses are mul^plied by the Strike Locaôn
modier and in another it says something like "If this HPs STEEP had been
higher, he would have been able to add his bonus to the rolled damage before
mul^plying," etc. I think it is quite clear that rolled damage plus bonuses
are to be mul^plied. However, the paragraph earlier about Jeddras cas^ng a
Heka bolt has about ve errors in it, so this may not be valid. But the
preponderance of unambiguous language points in my favor.

Now, with the missle weapon thing, it is clearly an edi^ng error. As MJW
points out, in one place it says all missle re gets the ROF modier and in
another place it says, "Unless using a propelled," etc. which clearly means
that propelled missle weapons do not get the ROF modier. The most likely
explanaôn is that one or the other is an edi^ng slip.

Again, I don't have the book here, but look at the descripôn of the Control
akack form of Mental Combat. The descripôn of the area says a controlled
persona loses points at a certain rate and the sidebar says the persona loses
them at a dierent rate. One says point per hour and the othere says a
dierent number of points per AT, or something to that eect.

These are all examples of things I wish would have been addressed in either
Journeys or MMM. Speaking of which, is it foolish to ask whether anyone has
a set of MMMs for sale? They must be unspeakably rare by now, but if there
is anyplace to ask about them it would be here.

Lisa
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:05:23 +1200
Subject: ROF & Mul^plying Damage

>I don't have the books here at work, but I think if you look around page 231
>in the rst book there is a long example of combat. In one place it clearly
>says that rolled damage plus bonuses are mul^plied by the Strike Locaôn
>modier and in another it says something like "If this HPs STEEP had been
>higher, he would have been able to add his bonus to the rolled damage before
>mul^plying," etc. I think it is quite clear that rolled damage plus bonuses
>are to be mul^plied. However, the paragraph earlier about Jeddras cas^ng a
>Heka bolt has about ve errors in it, so this may not be valid. But the
>preponderance of unambiguous language points in my favor.
>
>Now, with the missle weapon thing, it is clearly an edi^ng error. As MJW
>points out, in one place it says all missle re gets the ROF modier and in
>another place it says, "Unless using a propelled," etc. which clearly means
>that propelled missle weapons do not get the ROF modier. The most likely
>explanaôn is that one or the other is an edi^ng slip.
>
>Again, I don't have the book here, but look at the descripôn of the Control
>akack form of Mental Combat. The descripôn of the area says a controlled
>persona loses points at a certain rate and the sidebar says the persona loses
>them at a dierent rate. One says point per hour and the othere says a
>dierent number of points per AT, or something to that eect.
>
>These are all examples of things I wish would have been addressed in either
>Journeys or MMM. Speaking of which, is it foolish to ask whether anyone has

>a set of MMMs for sale? They must be unspeakably rare by now, but if there
>is anyplace to ask about them it would be here.
>
>Lisa
--------
Yes, it would be great if we had some authorial feedback, or if the rules
were less ambiguous to start with (sigh). I wish I had a set of MMMs too
(deeper sigh).

Its up to each JM to decide the rules, though. I'd say the arguments are in
favour of allowing STEEP adjustments for bows, and adding bonuses to damage
before mul^plying it, but it's quite possible the authors changed their
minds averwards, or some sentences in the original 1,000,000 words of text
were misinterpreted.

I reread the ROF & Mul^plying stu last night, and scrawled down some notes:

*ROF

The Mythus rules do seem to contradict on the subject.

M1 224. Number of Akacks: Unless using a propelled (not thrown) missile
weapon, this will vary with an HP's steep.

M1 164. Combat, Hand Weapons, Missile: ... Also, while each missile weapon
is listed with a basic ROF (rate of re), a persona's steep level confers
a modier...

The laker quote does not specify the type of missile weapon. You *could*
read it as following on from the previous sentence about thrown weapons and
damage bonuses, but it seems unlikely it was meant this way. That
(admikedly error-ridden) example of combat, M1 231-234, has Dirk using a
medium bow and geing 2 shots a CT, which is appropriate to his STEEP, and
double the listed ROF of the weapon.

(As an aside, I've no idea why the STEEP mul^pliers for missile weapons
are higher than those for hand weapons.)

*Mul^plying Bonuses

It's not unreasonable to add in bonuses before mul^plying by strike
locaôn when dealing with ordinary combat situaôns (such as the example
combat, M1 233 and 234). When you deal with ogres, dinosaurs, and so on, it
gets messy. One dinosaur has something like a +70 bonus on its tail
swipe... a possible 280 damage coming your way from bonuses alone.
Unbalancing in more ways than one!

There's a thread on this in the archives, I think. Someone had talked to Mr
Gygax or Mr Newton, and there was some menôn of some text that was missed
out of the book but in the original manuscript to the eect that only the
base damage was subject to the strike locaôn mul^plier, *then* the
bonuses for high STEEP, high PMPow, and great mass were added. This seems
reasonable.

I'll look for it tonight aver I've taken some text search sovware home
(just in case I dreamed the whole thing). I don't suppose Mak Pearson or
Mike Phillips, say, has already set up an index of the archives of
Mythus-L, by topic and key words? :)

Malcolm
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:55:17 +0200
Subject: Combat buisness

(I'm sorry I don't have any quotes, but I deleted the messages...)
MAGICKAL ARMOR:
Someone menôned the subject, so I wanted to remind everyone that
page 220 of Book1 reads: "magickal protecôn is always taken o the
top--that is, all damage is applied to any Heka-based armor rst...".
Basically, much like a SiFi force-eldor Shield( which makes you think of
the great potenâl DJ had :-( as a Mul^-Genere system). Also, on the
same page: "the eec^ve value of Cas^ng-based armor is reduced by the
amount of damage it absorbs with each successive akack".
ROF & MISSILE WEAPONS
Just because one place in the book doesn't state that ROF modiers
apply only to hand-propelled missile-weapons, that doen't make the place
that does state this worng!!! Gygax assumes that you're gonna read the
enêr book at least once, and that when you're reading the K/S
descipôns you haven't goken to the Combat Rules yet. On page 244,
under Number of Akacks: "Unless using a propelled (not thrown) missile
weapon, this will very with an HP's STEEP". That means that with a
propelled weapon. it won't very with the STEEP.
N.B.:
Also, someone wasn't sure if a bow was or wasn't a propelled weapon.
Since the above quote deened "propelled" as "not thrown", and since the
"T" ("thrown?") coulmn on page 238 has a Y (yes) for all bows, bows' ROF
_should_ be modied by STEEP!!! Lots and lots of people, on this list
and o it, have said otherwise, so PLEASE pay akenôn to this.
Someone complained that page 224 said that the Missile Tables where on
pages 236 and 237. If the enêr peregaraph were to be read, he would
no^ce that the peregraph talks about ALL weapons, and just menôns
missile weapons BTW.
STRIKE LOCATION & BOUNESES
While page 229 _does_ state that the "rolled damage is mul^plied", I
think everyone agrees that if I roll a 1d6+2, get a 4 which becomes a 6,
the result, or "rolled damage" is 6, not 4. While this does make big
creatures more dangerous, as someone menôned, no one asked your HPs to
go hun^ng a Rex!!!
A QUSTION - NECREPOLIS
Has anyone here actually played Necrepolis, and nished it alive? 9
curses that each results with death should be enough to wipe-out the
average-sized group, not to menôn ends, devils, undead etc...
Akiva Esterson
Mevo Modiim
ISRAEL
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 17:06:18 -0700
Subject: Manuscript of 2nd Beasâry. What format?

To All:

A gentleman(on this listserve) was kind enough to e-mail the second
beasâry manuscript to me; however, I have not had much luck geing it
to load in to WORDPERFECT 6.1 . So, if there is anyone that knows the
format of these les aver they have been unzipped or what word
processor that use the extenôn ".msw" or ".xls", please let me know.
If that gentleman(I forgot your name) that sent me the le remembers
me, drop me a line.

By the way, I have been running MYTHUS PRIME for a new group of players.
To say the least, they all enjoyed themselves enough to hunt down the
DJ: MYTHUS books and buy them. So, I guess that makes three new players
to the system. Perhaps, if MYTHUS gets enough of a following, we (the
players) could force T$R to revive and support MYTHUS. Just a thought.

Thanks,
-=+>Mike Wikek e-m: wikek@suntan.eng.usf.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:24:20 -0600
Subject: Re: Manuscript of 2nd Beasâry. What format?

Sounds like an excel spreadsheet.

---------From: Mike Wikek <wikek@SUNTAN.ENG.USF.EDU>
To: Mul^ple recipients of list MYTHUS-L <MYTHUS-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Manuscript of 2nd Beasâry. What format?
Date: Monday, September 30, 1996 6:06 PM

To All:

A gentleman(on this listserve) was kind enough to e-mail the second
me, drop me a line.

By the way, I have been running MYTHUS PRIME for a new group of players.
To say the least, they all enjoyed themselves enough to hunt down the
DJ: MYTHUS books and buy them. So, I guess that makes three new players
to the system. Perhaps, if MYTHUS gets enough of a following, we (the
players) could force T$R to revive and support MYTHUS. Just a thought.

Thanks,
-=+>Mike Wikek e-m: wikek@suntan.eng.usf.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:28:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Combat buisness

(discussion on heka armor deleted)

> ROF & MISSILE WEAPONS
> Just because one place in the book doesn't state that ROF modiers
>apply only to hand-propelled missile-weapons, that doen't make the place
>that does state this worng!!! Gygax assumes that you're gonna read the
>enêr book at least once, and that when you're reading the K/S
>descipôns you haven't goken to the Combat Rules yet. On page 244,
>under Number of Akacks: "Unless using a propelled (not thrown) missile
>weapon, this will very with an HP's STEEP". That means that with a
>propelled weapon. it won't very with the STEEP.

(MJW)
An example: Dirk has a sword and a STEEP of 30 in Combat,Hand Weapons so
Dirk has 2 akacks per CT(page 164 chart). Dirk also has a STEEP of 45 in
Combat,Hand Weapons,Missile via his STEEP this would give him 2 akacks per
CT but the book says we have to mul^ply this by the weapons listed ROF.
Thus looking on page 239 we see that if Dirk is using a CRossbow,medium,bolt
with a ROF of .5 he has only one akack every two CT because Crossbow is
listed as a not thrown weapon, thus propelled, but if Dirk decides to use a
Bow,self (Short) which is listed as a thrown weapon, with a listed ROF of
1.5 this would then give Dirk 3 akacks per CT (ROF 1.5 x STEEP Modier 2 =
3 akacks per CT)

(MJW)
The confusion may be what people think of when hearing "propelled, not thrown"
The only propelled(not thrown) weapons on the chart(page 238) are crossbows,
slings, and a blowgun. I am not very familiar with slings but in the case of
blowguns and crossbows it is clear that propelled means that a mechanical
device is what the weapon is more dependent upon for speed than the skill of
the user. In the game Bows are considered thrown weapons(not just spears and
daggers).

> (bow discussion deleted. see example above)

>

.
> STRIKE LOCATION & BOUNESES
> While page 229 _does_ state that the "rolled damage is mul^plied", I
>think everyone agrees that if I roll a 1d6+2, get a 4 which becomes a 6,
>the result, or "rolled damage" is 6, not 4.

(MJW)
I disagree that everyone agrees with this. Had everyone agreed it would not
have been an issue. The most convincing support for doing this are the two
examples of combat in the book pages 233 and 234. Page 233 is the
clearest,second cloumn,fourth paragraph "(Had Dirk possessed a higher BAC
with his bow, he would have added that bonus before mul^plying the value
^mes three!)".

> A QUSTION - NECREPOLIS
> Has anyone here actually played Necrepolis, and nished it alive? 9
>curses that each results with death should be enough to wipe-out the
>average-sized group, not to menôn ends, devils, undead etc...
> Akiva Esterson
> Mevo Modiim
> ISRAEL
>
>(MJW)
I ran Necropolis. Even with my "nice guy" style the Spellsinger, Mountebank,
and Hunter(Primi^ve) died. The FP Dweomercraever, Assassin, and
Warrior(primi^ve) made it through. Of course JOSS played a big part. Had I
not been extremely generous with the uses of JOSS the assassin and primi^ve
warrior would have died too although they had only one each "death defying"
situaôn. A strictly book or a "kill em" JM could wipe out the HP's without
much problem but I wanted to nish the game not watch over my HP's rolling
up new HP's every session. I ran all the Journeys adventures rst in order
to give them some AP's to use to prepare.

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:47:53 -0400

At 05:06 PM 9/30/96 -0700, you wrote:
>To All:
>
>A gentleman(on this listserve) was kind enough to e-mail the second
>beasâry manuscript to me; however, I have not had much luck geing it
>to load in to WORDPERFECT 6.1 . So, if there is anyone that knows the
>format of these les aver they have been unzipped or what word
>processor that use the extenôn ".msw" or ".xls", please let me know.
>If that gentleman(I forgot your name) that sent me the le remembers
>me, drop me a line.

The les were probably done on a MAC. If you have the capability to convert
Mac les you should try that. If not Microsov Works will open them under
Word Processor.
>
>By the way, I have been running MYTHUS PRIME for a new group of players.
>To say the least, they all enjoyed themselves enough to hunt down the
>DJ: MYTHUS books and buy them. So, I guess that makes three new players
>to the system.

GREAT!!!

Perhaps, if MYTHUS gets enough of a following, we (the
>players) could force T$R to revive and support MYTHUS. Just a thought.

Unfortunately T$R is run and controlled by one woman who hates Gary. She
will never willingly publish anything he wrote or anything that has his name
on it. The en^re lawsuit was a personal akack to prevent him from
reentering the RPG eld. So I doubt we could force TSR to do anything. I
sent pe^ôns and lekers to TSR before the suit was sekled and averwards
the only resonse in stonewalling "T$R hasn't decided what to do with MYTHUS
yet". Now if people were willing to ac^vely boycok TSR (something I have
done since they removed Gygax) then maybe their would be a chance. I have a
list of boycokers and the reasons they are boycoing(many of them are
Mythus related). I plan to E-mail and snail mail the list to TSR, let me
know if you want to be included. It might interest you to know that
UNHALLOWED is a completely nished manuscript that TSR will not release.
Also The City of Ascalon nished by Loren Wiseman TSR will not buy from him
so he can't release it as is(nished for MYTHUS) and they won't buy it in
order to release it.

I have started a group called the IRPGA Independent Role Playing GAmers
Associaôn and I will be running MYTHUS games at 3-6 gaming convenôns in
Texas next year. I hope to get a table across from the TSR controlled RPGA :)

>
>Thanks,
> -=+>Mike Wikek e-m: wikek@suntan.eng.usf.edu

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver

>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:45:24 -0700
From: "Ryan W. Snead" <rsnead@PATRIOT.NET>
Organizaôn: The Snead Family
Subject: Call for players in the DC area!

Hi!

I am seeking to JM an occasional Mythus game in the DC area. The game
will meet once per month (probably on a Saturday or Sunday).
Unfortunately, I do not have enough people to run a game. If you are
interested, please email me privately. The rst game will likely start
in mid-to-late October.

The seing will be AErth based with the opôn to travel. I have not
decided on an exact locaôn yet, as I want to see what kinds of
interests I get in response.

Experience with the Mythus system is not required, and I will gladly meet
with people to assist in character creaôn. If you have any further
quesôns, please email me for details.

Thanks!

--Ryan Snead
rsnead@patriot.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:16:05 +0000
Reply-To: wildcat@prysm.net
Subject: Mythus?

What do you think the chances are of TSR leing another company
licence out Mythus from them. That way we are happy, they dont have
to deal with it and they are s^ll making money o the deal

wildcat@prysm.net

Keeper of the Bakletech Mailing List - email btech@prysm.net to
subsribe. "Sooner or later everyone comes to Babylon 5"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 22:57:48 +0000
Comments: Authen^cated sender is <jbol^k@mail.pinenet.com>
From: Randy Sivigny <jbol^k@HOMEBREW.PINENET.COM>

The xls is Microsov Excel. The msw might be Ms-works. If you need
some help let me know. I would like a copy if you could spare one?

Randy
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 00:10:19 -0400
Reply-To: tauman@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Call for players in the DC area!

Ryan W. Snead wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> I am seeking to JM an occasional Mythus game in the DC area. The game
> will meet once per month (probably on a Saturday or Sunday).
> Unfortunately, I do not have enough people to run a game. If you are
> interested, please email me privately. The rst game will likely start
> in mid-to-late October.
>
> The seing will be AErth based with the opôn to travel. I have not
> decided on an exact locaôn yet, as I want to see what kinds of
> interests I get in response.
>
> Experience with the Mythus system is not required, and I will gladly meet
> with people to assist in character creaôn. If you have any further
> quesôns, please email me for details.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --Ryan Snead
> rsnead@patriot.net

I'm interested, write me back and tell me more.

--/tauman
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 04:51:20 -0400

At 10:57 PM 9/30/96 +0000, you wrote:
>The xls is Microsov Excel. The msw might be Ms-works. If you need
>some help let me know. I would like a copy if you could spare one?

MSW is Microsov Word for the Macintosh.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 09:51:31 -0400
Subject: Re: MYTHUS-L Digest - 29 Sep 1996 to 30 Sep 1996

M.J. Weaver: "I have started a group called the IRPGA Independent Role
Playing Gamers Associaôn..."

Here's a predicôn: TSR will contact you and threaten legal acôn if you
persist in using IRPGA, which they will claim impinges on their RPGA service
mark. (CARPGA hit the same problem years ago.)

-- FM
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 10:24:35 EDT

>>>A gentleman(on this listserve) was kind enough to e-mail the second
me, drop me a line.<<<

.xls IS an excel le, I have excel, although it's an older version, and
my copy came out kinda weird. Some of the macros aren't exact. BTW did
the Phaeree Manual ever get nished? I know some people on the list
were trying to do that.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Ronald Regan were President
..................Roger Waters
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:22:52 +0000
Subject: spell research

Does anyone have a set of spell research rules out there. I am not
thrilled with the recallable and studyable concept. I prefer to use
the spell research. I have a system that works ne, but just wanted
to see if someone was using a dierent method.

Thanks and may Mythus guide you throught the night.

Randy
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 14:14:31 EDT
Subject: Re: spell research

On Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:22:52 +0000 Randy Sivigny
<jbol^k@HOMEBREW.PINENET.COM> writes:
>Does anyone have a set of spell research rules out there. I am not
>thrilled with the recallable and studyable concept. I prefer to use
>the spell research. I have a system that works ne, but just wanted
>to see if someone was using a dierent method.
>
>Thanks and may Mythus guide you throught the night.
>
>Randy

Spell research begins on page 300 of the
Mythus Magic book.

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 14:14:31 EDT

Frank Mentzer <Mythic@AOL.COM> writes:
>M.J. Weaver: "I have started a group called the IRPGA Independent Role
>Playing Gamers Associaôn..."
>
>Here's a predicôn: TSR will contact you and threaten legal acôn if
>you
>persist in using IRPGA, which they will claim impinges on their RPGA
>service
>mark. (CARPGA hit the same problem years ago.)
>
>-- FM
>
Didn't TSR also try to claim that all games (RPGs) involving dice were
also their sole domain? My memory might be a likle hazy
here.............................
Poor Parker Brothers.

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 15:14:46 -0400


<< (MJW)
No, it does not. The full paragraph reads,"Unless using a propelled (not
thrown) missile weapon,this will vary with the an HP's STEEP. Consult the
descripôn of of the individual K/S Area for details. For missile
weapons,however, it varies with the weapon being used. See the weapons
tables on pages 236 and 237". >>

So where do we dier? Reading the above, "Unless using a propelled (not
thrown) missile weapon [RC- i.e. 'bow', 'xbow', etc], this will vary with an
HP's STEEP.

By virtue of the fact that this statement is made, I presume that if you
*are* using a propelled weapon [bow, xbow, etc] that it does not vary with
STEEP.

>>For missile weapons,however, it varies with the weapon being used.<<

So you get the rate of re from the weapon tables for all ranged weapons and
apply the STEEP modier to those thrown, but not to those propelled.

From a "real" standpoint I don't en^rely agree with the above. However,
from a strict rules interpretaôn standpoint, that's what I get out of it.
My preference is in between, STEEP should aect ROF with a bow, the weapon
itself has likle to do with the issue. However, in terms of game balance, a
longbowman with an ROF of 3 akacks per CT is a disaster.

Keep smiling,

Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 15:24:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Damage Mul^ply

<< Sorry, but read the post again it says "Something my group has been doing
wrong/dierently since day one". I would like to see if the original
poster can nd it where it states "not pluses".
>>

Hmmm, that would be me.

> (MJW)
> > You might try reading pg.229 on the Mythus book. under the heading Strike
> > Locaôn And Table second paragraph where it states "The damage modier
> > represents the factor by which the rolled damage is mul^plied".
> >

And I believe that is the secôn I found it in. The rules are indeed
ambiguous but seem to favor mul^plying the total damage (rolled and bonus).
However, using this system with capable warriors can result in hits doing
200+ points of damage. A one-shot kill for anything remotely humanoid (and
non-giant). By the same token if a large, or skilled EP manages such a shot,
your HP beker have a good stock of Joss laid in.

Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 15:41:01 -0400

At 09:51 AM 10/1/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Here's a predicôn: TSR will contact you and threaten legal acôn if you
>persist in using IRPGA, which they will claim impinges on their RPGA service
>
>-- FM
>
The name is tenta^ve and will probably be changed with the mailing of the
rst contact sheet. I hope to nd a name more interes^ng anyway. The list
(and thus name change) will be released at the end of this month. If TSR
wishes to contact me I will be glad to have my akorneys speak to them.

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 15:47:31 -0400
Subject: Missile weapons

I don't have access to my books.... (how many ^mes do we see that).

However, as I recall, the "T" column of the charts indicate which weapons you
can apply strength through (which is consistent with 'thrown', but obviously
a bow is *not* a thrown weapon). Equally obvious in the case of bows is the
requirement that the bow would have to be built to your strength (or less)
for this to apply. In the case of crossbows, this should apply, but the
strength applied should be a funcôn of how powerfully built the xbow was.
Which should also aect your rate of re.

I will let a crossbowman re a weapon weighted greater than his strength,
but reduce the ROF to compensate for his struggles to recock it. Some xbows
use a mechanical advantage to aid in recocking them, but that was not the
norm for the ^mes. However, these days the Barrek 150-200# crossbows would
be rela^vely useless without it.

Later,

Rick Crook
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 16:45:00 -0500
X-To: "Michael J. Weaver" <aikido@CRIS.COM>

I know the quotes on this mail server won't put my message at the bokom
of the message that it's being replied to. Sorry...I can't help it.

Anyhow...I'm interrested in knowing some more info about the IRPGA.
Omaha's not exaclty a haven for RPGers so any contacts would be helpful.

Also...Michael J. Weaver...."I'll be happy to have my akourneys speak
with them"...you've got style.

Wayne Westphalen
"Anyone who don't wanna get killed....best clear on out the
back"...Clint Eastwood

---------From: Michael J. Weaver
Date: Tuesday, October 01, 1996 2:41PM

At 09:51 AM 10/1/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Here's a predicôn: TSR will contact you and threaten legal acôn if you
>persist in using IRPGA, which they will claim impinges on their RPGA service
>
>-- FM
>
The name is tenta^ve and will probably be changed with the mailing of
the
rst contact sheet. I hope to nd a name more interes^ng anyway. The
list
(and thus name change) will be released at the end of this month. If TSR
wishes to contact me I will be glad to have my akorneys speak to them.

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 18:17:27 -0400
Subject: Re: MYTHUS-L Digest - 29 Sep ...

> Didn't TSR also try to claim that all games (RPGs) involving dice
> were also their sole domain? My memory might be a likle hazy
> here.

Hmmm...in one case I know of, one of the alleged points of similarity was
using dice to randomly determine character akributes...of course, another
alleged point of similarity was that both games had sta slings as part of
their weapons lis^ng.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 18:29:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Missile weapons

> I will let a crossbowman re a weapon weighted greater than his
> strength, but reduce the ROF to compensate for his struggles to
> recock it. Some xbows use a mechanical advantage to aid in
> recocking them, but that was not the norm for the ^mes.
> However, these days the Barrek 150-200# crossbows would
> be rela^vely useless without it.

Crossbows were usually cocked using one or both legs, enabling the user to
take advantage of the most powerful muscles of the body (the legs and back).
Even the simple non-mechanical-assisted ones were therefore more powerful
than convenônal bows. I'm opera^ng o of memory here, but Payne-Galwey's
book _Crossbows_ gave the max pull of a late medieval crossbow as between
1200 and 1500 pounds (requiring a windlass and a couple of minutes to cock).

I own a repro crossbow, and it takes about 15 seconds to cock, aim and re.

LKW
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 11:24:09 +1200
Subject: Re: IRPGA

>>M.J. Weaver: "I have started a group called the IRPGA Independent Role
>>Playing Gamers Associaôn..."
>>
>>Here's a predicôn: TSR will contact you and threaten legal acôn if you
>>persist in using IRPGA, which they will claim impinges on their RPGA service
>>mark. (CARPGA hit the same problem years ago.)
>>
>>-- FM
>>
>The name is tenta^ve and will probably be changed with the mailing of the
>rst contact sheet. I hope to nd a name more interes^ng anyway. The list
>(and thus name change) will be released at the end of this month. If TSR
>wishes to contact me I will be glad to have my akorneys speak to them.
>
>Good Gaming,

A suggesôn o the top of my head: IRPA Independent Role Players'
Associaôn -- a pronounceable four-leker word that Those Suing Ratbags
probably won't sue over, since it doesn't sound like or contain 'RPGA'.

Malcolm
He needs a long spoon who sups with akorneys :)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 12:48:57 +1200
Subject: Re: IRPGA averthought

A beker alterna^ve to IRPGA, could be SIR, Society of Independent
Roleplayers. Roleplayers is really one word, and SIR is short, simple, and
has a nice ring to it. TSR wouldn't sue just because they have to call us
SIR, would they? :)

Malcolm
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 00:49:50 -0700
X-cc: wikek@suntan.eng.usf.edu

At 05:06 PM 9/30/96 -0700, Mike Wikek wrote:
>To All:
>
>A gentleman(on this listserve) was kind enough to e-mail the second
>beasâry manuscript to me; however, I have not had much luck geing it
>to load in to WORDPERFECT 6.1 . So, if there is anyone that knows the
>format of these les aver they have been unzipped or what word
>processor that use the extenôn ".msw" or ".xls", please let me know.
>If that gentleman(I forgot your name) that sent me the le remembers
>me, drop me a line.
>
>By the way, I have been running MYTHUS PRIME for a new group of players.
>To say the least, they all enjoyed themselves enough to hunt down the
>DJ: MYTHUS books and buy them. So, I guess that makes three new players
>to the system. Perhaps, if MYTHUS gets enough of a following, we (the
>players) could force T$R to revive and support MYTHUS. Just a thought.
>
>Thanks,
> -=+>Mike Wikek e-m: wikek@suntan.eng.usf.edu

I didn't see anyone answer this completely. The *.msw les

ARE Macintosh format, but they easily convert if you have the
Win95 version of MS Word. If you don't have this please
contact me and I'll convert them for you.

Todd South
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 04:41:58 -0400
Subject: The Independent Role Playing Gamers Associaôn(IRPGA)

>
>(MJW)
>The IRPGA, Independent Role Playing Gamers Associaôn is a NON PROFIT
organizaôn dedicated to crea^ng diversity in the oerings of RPG's at
gaming convenôns. We hope to do this by oering s^ll popular but
unsupported and/or out of print RPGs as well as new RPGs from small
companies who could use these convenôns as a means of exposure for their
RPGs. The IRPGA will not oer AD&D 2nd ed.(TM TSR Inc.) or any other RPG
currently supported by TSR and/or its aliates.

(MJW)
The IRPGA is further dedicated to promo^ng more diversity among players by
encouraging more women and minoriês to par^cipate in RPGs. One small way
we intend to do this is having pre gen characters that are female and/or of
ethnic origin.

(MJW)
The IRPGA is also dedicated to bringing players and GM's together by
providing a member contact mailing list.

(MJW)
Membership is free. All one needs to do to join is send E-mail to:
aikido@cris.com include in the message, your full name,E-mail
address,locaôn(city,state,country),what systems you play,if you are a
player or GM in those systems. A phone number and regular mailing address
are opônal.
(MJW)
i.e. Michael John Weaver, aikido@cris.com, San Antonio, Texas, USA,Role
Master(player), Mythus(JM),Tales From The Floa^ng Vagabond(player), P.O.
Box 200367 San Antonio Texas 78220-0367.

(MJW)
I am looking into membership cards and a geing a newleker up and running.

(MJW)
Convenôn ac^vity is only scheduled for Texas(where I live) for next year.
However, if enough members in another state wished to run IRPGA games at
convenôns, I would help organize from here.

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 17:56:00 +0200
Subject: Combat buisness

(I'm sorry I don't have any quotes, but I deleted the messages...)
MAGICKAL ARMOR:
Someone menôned the subject, so I wanted to remind everyone that
page 220 of Book1 reads: "magickal protecôn is always taken o the
top--that is, all damage is applied to any Heka-based armor rst...".
Basically, much like a SiFi force-eldor Shield( which makes you think of
the great potenâl DJ had :-( as a Mul^-Genere system). Also, on the
same page: "the eec^ve value of Cas^ng-based armor is reduced by the
amount of damage it absorbs with each successive akack".
ROF & MISSILE WEAPONS
Just because one place in the book doesn't state that ROF modiers
apply only to hand-propelled missile-weapons, that doen't make the place
that does state this worng!!! Gygax assumes that you're gonna read the
enêr book at least once, and that when you're reading the K/S
descipôns you haven't goken to the Combat Rules yet. On page 244,
under Number of Akacks: "Unless using a propelled (not thrown) missile
weapon, this will very with an HP's STEEP". That means that with a
propelled weapon. it won't very with the STEEP.
N.B.:
Also, someone wasn't sure if a bow was or wasn't a propelled weapon.
Since the above quote deened "propelled" as "not thrown", and since the
"T" ("thrown?") coulmn on page 238 has a Y (yes) for all bows, bows' ROF
_should_ be modied by STEEP!!! Lots and lots of people, on this list
and o it, have said otherwise, so PLEASE pay akenôn to this.
Someone complained that page 224 said that the Missile Tables where on
pages 236 and 237. If the enêr peregaraph were to be read, he would
no^ce that the peregraph talks about ALL weapons, and just menôns
missile weapons BTW.
STRIKE LOCATION & BOUNESES
While page 229 _does_ state that the "rolled damage is mul^plied", I
think everyone agrees that if I roll a 1d6+2, get a 4 which becomes a 6,
the result, or "rolled damage" is 6, not 4. While this does make big
creatures more dangerous, as someone menôned, no one asked your HPs to
go hun^ng a Rex!!!
A QUSTION - NECREPOLIS
Has anyone here actually played Necrepolis, and nished it alive? 9
curses that each results with death should be enough to wipe-out the
average-sized group, not to menôn ends, devils, undead etc...
Akiva Esterson
Mevo Modiim
ISRAEL
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 13:23:12 -0400
Subject: Re: The Independent Role Playing Gamers Associaôn(IRPGA)

At 04:41 AM 10/2/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>(MJW)
>>The IRPGA, Independent Role Playing Gamers Associaôn is a NON PROFIT
>organizaôn dedicated to crea^ng diversity in the oerings of RPG's at
>gaming convenôns. We hope to do this by oering s^ll popular but
>unsupported and/or out of print RPGs as well as new RPGs from small
>companies who could use these convenôns as a means of exposure for their
>RPGs. The IRPGA will not oer AD&D 2nd ed.(TM TSR Inc.) or any other RPG
>currently supported by TSR and/or its aliates.

Mike, you need to examine your mo^vaôns for forming this organizaôn.
Are you doing it for the good of gaming everywhere? Or is it to counter
TSR? This statement and iniâlly naming it "IRPGA" (too similar a name)
seems to directly aimed at targe^ng TSR for exclusion. Why not exclude
the other "big companies" if you're aiming at the small publishers, such as
White Wolf or FASA.

If your main mo^vaôn is building an An^-TSR movement with this
organizaôn, I guarantee you won't gain any serious credibility or major
support. An organizaôn like this needs construc^ve goals, not zealotry.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 15:25:07 -0700
Subject: San Diego

I don't usually do this, but here's a short note wondering
if there's a single Mythus subscriber in San Diego besides
myself. If so, please write me!

Todd South
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 18:52:07 -0400
Subject: Re: San Diego

There are a least a couple of us in North County.

Later
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 20:19:05 -0400

Me!

Lisa
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 21:08:56 -0400

At 01:23 PM 10/2/96 -0400, you wrote:
>At 04:41 AM 10/2/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>>
>>>(MJW)
>>>The IRPGA, Independent Role Playing Gamers Associaôn is a NON PROFIT
>>organizaôn dedicated to crea^ng diversity in the oerings of RPG's at
>>gaming convenôns. We hope to do this by oering s^ll popular but
>>unsupported and/or out of print RPGs as well as new RPGs from small
>>companies who could use these convenôns as a means of exposure for their
>>RPGs. The IRPGA will not oer AD&D 2nd ed.(TM TSR Inc.) or any other RPG
>>currently supported by TSR and/or its aliates.
>
>
>Mike, you need to examine your mo^vaôns for forming this organizaôn.
>Are you doing it for the good of gaming everywhere?

(MJW)
John,

(MJW)
First, not to be rude but if you would not mind terribly I prefer Michael.
Secondly, I am forming this organizaôn for the good of the players of role
playing games everywhere. I believe an organizaôn that supports and
focuses on the players will utlimately benet the en^re Role Playing Game
industry. This organizaôn's non prot status and intenônal lack of
corporate sponsorship will allow this organizaôn to focus on the players
interest without any undue outside inuence. Just for historical
perspec^ve I was mo^vated to start this organizaôn because when I
akended NANCON in Houston I saw no oering of Aria, Ars Magica, Earthdawn,
Amber, Call of Cthulhu, which are all games I would like to have the
opportunity to play before purchasing.

Or is it to counter
>TSR?

(MJW)
This quesôn is adequately answered above.

This statement and iniâlly naming it "IRPGA" (too similar a name)
>seems to directly aimed at targe^ng TSR for exclusion.

(MJW)
By " This statement" I assume you mean my disclaimer that we will not oer
AD&D 2nd ed. or any other RPG currently supported by TSR and/or any of its
aliates. The reason for this is not exclusion of supported TSR products.
The reason for this is the the IRPGA is oering a service that TSR and the
RPGA do not. The RPGA already supports AD&D 2nd ed. at gaming convenôns so
there is no reason for us to oer it. It is our intenôn to oer players
choices they do not currently have of RPGs to play at convenôns. Also, I
believe that TSR would not wish us to oer their games through our
organizaôn. However, If TSR contacts me and wishes me to include their
games as RPG playing choices at gaming convenôns under our banner and send
me wriken permission to do so I will immediately add them to our RPG
oering list.

Why not exclude
>the other "big companies" if you're aiming at the small publishers, such as
>White Wolf or FASA.

(MJW)
Should White Wolf or FASA contact me and tell me that they do not wish for
their games to be oered through the IRPGA at gaming convenôns as a
playing choice I will then not oer them. I do not exclude these
oragnizaôns automa^cally because to the best of my knowledge they do not
support organizaôns that ac^vely promote their games as playing choices
at gaming convenôns.

(MJW)
You may also note that the IRPGA will not oer any games that are already
oered at the gaming convenôn. For instance if Vampire is oered as a
playing choice then the IRPGA will not oer a Vampire game as part of their
selecôn.

(MJW)
Where the name is concerned, it was the rst thing that came to mind and
was thus named. I have already clearly stated that the name was tenta^ve
and would probably be changed with the rst mailing. This of course depends
on my nding a name that would draw more players and be more reec^ve of
what we wish to accomplish. I am considering IRPA.

>If your main mo^vaôn is building an An^-TSR movement with this
>organizaôn, I guarantee you won't gain any serious credibility or major
>support. An organizaôn like this needs construc^ve goals, not zealotry.

(MJW)
I do not believe that I have stated anything which was not a construc^ve
goal for this organizaôn or the Role Playing Game industry in general.

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
>
>==================
>John R. Troy (JRT)
>johntroy@âc.net
>==================
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 22:06:05 -0400

Todd,

I am in San Diego. I run a Mythus game and at least one of my players also
subscribes to MYTHUS-L. There are a couple of fellows in North County, too,
and Alan Kellog lives out here, though he doesn't have a computer.

DOn
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 00:08:32 -0700


At 10:06 PM 10/2/96 -0400, Donald Eccles wrote:
>Todd,
>
>I am in San Diego. I run a Mythus game and at least one of my players also
>subscribes to MYTHUS-L. There are a couple of fellows in North County, too,
>and Alan Kellog lives out here, though he doesn't have a computer.
>
>DOn

I'll be contac^ng all. Alan Kellogg has been contacted! hehehe

Just got his info and he asked for address and phone to be posted
on The Gamers' Directory. A very complex guy that does all of
his work with pen & paper as he is sans computer. Egads! Can't
imagine that...

Todd...
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 18:55:25 +0200
Subject: The File Formats

Hi!
People have been talking about the DIETIES archive they
received from dierent sources:
a) I know what the MWS and XLS les are. What's the XLM?
b) this le was sent to me as a second Beasâry. As far as I can tell,
it's nothing of the kind! (if the answer is in that XLM le, please
excuse me).
Anyway, thanks to whoever sent it to me.
Akiva
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 12:15:40 EDT
Subject: Horses

A quesôn:
In iniâl HP generaôn, when a mount is provided, it says the BUC value
(for SEC 6+) is equal to 6D5x1000, and the mount's PTRAIT is equal to 120
+ 1 per every thousand BUCS of its value. Looking on the mounts table
on P.121, though, leads me to believe there is an error somewhere.
If I was really lucky and had a mount worth 30,000BUCS, it's PTRAIT then
would only be 150. To my unsure eyes, the only mounts availible to me
would be: a jade, a pony (horse), a racer (barely), and a mule.
So i am SEC 9 with a mule for my mount?
Anyone do this iniâl mount-thing dierently?

wondering,
Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 14:36:12 -0400
From: Charles Hagenbuch <Charles.J.Hagenbuch@WILLIAMS.EDU>
Subject: Re: The File Formats
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.961003185438.17883A-100000@glx.chief.co.il>

XLM is Microsov Excel macro, I think for the Mac again.

Charles

P.S. I've moved to college, but my page hasn't yet. For those of you
who've no^ced it stagna^ng, I'm s^ll trying to nd ^me to update it
and move everything to the campus sooner. More soon, hopefully.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 14:58:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Horses

At 12:15 PM 10/3/96 EDT, you wrote:
>A quesôn:
>In iniâl HP generaôn, when a mount is provided, it says the BUC value
>(for SEC 6+) is equal to 6D5x1000, and the mount's PTRAIT is equal to 120
> + 1 per every thousand BUCS of its value. Looking on the mounts table
>on P.121, though, leads me to believe there is an error somewhere.
>If I was really lucky and had a mount worth 30,000BUCS, it's PTRAIT then
>would only be 150. To my unsure eyes, the only mounts availible to me
>would be: a jade, a pony (horse), a racer (barely), and a mule.
>So i am SEC 9 with a mule for my mount?
>Anyone do this iniâl mount-thing dierently?
>
>wondering,
>Chris
>
>Chris,

Alan Kellog, who was the DJ rules lawyer in a leker he mailed out states this:
"PD range for mounts:Somebody somewhere down the line made mistakes. If you
have the besâry that has the correct PD ranges for mounts, found in the
secôn on mounts".

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 16:30:29 EDT
Subject: MOUNT was Horses

>>Alan Kellog, who was the DJ rules lawyer in a leker he mailed out
states this:
"PD range for mounts:Somebody somewhere down the line made mistakes. If
you
have the besâry that has the correct PD ranges for mounts, found in the
secôn on mounts".<<

Right,
Looked at that, and found out NOW for your 30,000 bucs and 150Ptrait an
HP can walk away with a beau^ful .....pony.
If the generaôn rules are going by both the BUC value and PTRAIT. Or
is everyone ignoring the PTRAIT of horses for their HPs during
generaôn? Is everyone using the BUC value, and THEN determining the
type of mount availible, THEN the PTRAIT? That sounds more reasonable to
me.
So...............what's evrybody else doing?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 19:23:32 -0400
Subject: Re: MOUNT was Horses

<< Is everyone using the BUC value, and THEN determining the
type of mount availible, THEN the PTRAIT? That sounds more reasonable to
me. >>

Yes. I base the PTrait on the "extra" BUCs above the minimum for the horse
type. I also add to PTrait if the HP has a high riding or animal handling
STEEP.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 14:23:11 -0700

Subject: Boycok?

Michael Weaver,
As you requested, I shall answer you boycok issue. I personally would
not use the term boycok to discribe me not buying TSR products. Boycok
is used when a company has done some great wrong that the public use to
force a company to concede such a wrong. I do not have any proof that
TSR has done anything but make money the legal way. So, whatever TSR
has done to any individual, company, or game system that I have been
able to prove, it has just added to my irritaôn with TSR.
So for the record, I have stopped by TSR product for about 3 years, and
it has been about that long since I played the game. My reasons for not
playing and buying AD&D products because I no longer like the game
mechanic of AD&D. Ever since I played AD&D I have been using a mana and
non-forgeing-based spell system. I came to a conclusion 3 years that I
had bastardized the whole system so bad I was playing Mike's AD&D game
than TSR's AD&D Game. This may be great for those players who like the
changes, but hell on me try to keep all the changes straight in my head.
So, I stopped running or palying AD&D. This stoppage was with a
consumers point of view not boycoker. I started playing AD&D in 1980.
In 13 years, I was hopeing for the AD&D system to mature and become
beker. It never did. The system expand to bookshelf proporôn, but
never got any beker. I blame this expanôn to TSR's "the bokom line"
aitude without any or likle consideraôn of product quality. Un^l I
am ready to write my own fantasy game(which I am seriously considering),
MYTHUS is my current fantasy game, or un^l something else beker comes
along. If TSR changes their system to something beker, I might buy it.
I placed this on the listserv so you and anyone else that may care or
quesôn me will know where I stand. I hope this answers you guesôn.

Later,
-=+>Mike Wikek

DISCLAIMER: All that I write is my own opinion, and my opinion may not
be the opinion of my school or electronic courier. For that maker, it
may not be your opinion, but deal with it.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 19:05:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Boycok?

At 02:23 PM 10/6/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Michael Weaver,
> As you requested, I shall answer you boycok issue. I personally would
>not use the term boycok to discribe me not buying TSR products. Boycok
>is used when a company has done some great wrong that the public use to
>force a company to concede such a wrong. I do not have any proof that
>TSR has done anything but make money the legal way. So, whatever TSR
>has done to any individual, company, or game system that I have been
>able to prove, it has just added to my irritaôn with TSR.

(MJW)
Well, Since we are simply expressing opinions here let me clearify your
beliefs.
You have said TSR has done nothing but make money the legal way(in your
opinion). Does this then mean that a company is incapable of doing something
wrong as long as they act according to the law? By this deniôn
segregaôn was not wrong un^l the supreme court decided it was.

(MJW)
I believe that TSR has done many things wrong. That of course is just my
opinion which I will not express in detail unless asked.

(Edited)

> This stoppage was with a
>consumers point of view not boycoker. I started playing AD&D in 1980.
>In 13 years, I was hopeing for the AD&D system to mature and become
>beker. It never did. The system expand to bookshelf proporôn, but
>never got any beker. I blame this expanôn to TSR's "the bokom line"
>aitude without any or likle consideraôn of product quality. Un^l I
>am ready to write my own fantasy game(which I am seriously considering),
>MYTHUS is my current fantasy game, or un^l something else beker comes
>along.
If TSR changes their system to something beker, I might buy it.

> I placed this on the listserv so you and anyone else that may care or
>quesôn me will know where I stand. I hope this answers you guesôn.
>
>Later,
> -=+>Mike Wikek
>
>
>DISCLAIMER: All that I write is my own opinion, and my opinion may not
>be the opinion of my school or electronic courier. For that maker, it
>may not be your opinion, but deal with it.
>
>Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
aikido@cris.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 23:00:58 -0600

In-Reply-To: <199610062305.TAA18975@beasley.cris.com>

What the fuck is wrong with you? You always have to get the last word in,
try to prove you're right. Get over it.

My signature. Ain't it cool?

On Sun, 6 Oct 1996, Michael J. Weaver wrote:

> At 02:23 PM 10/6/96 -0700, you wrote:
> >Michael Weaver,
> > As you requested, I shall answer you boycok issue. I personally would
> >not use the term boycok to discribe me not buying TSR products. Boycok
> >is used when a company has done some great wrong that the public use to
> >force a company to concede such a wrong. I do not have any proof that
> >TSR has done anything but make money the legal way. So, whatever TSR
> >has done to any individual, company, or game system that I have been
> >able to prove, it has just added to my irritaôn with TSR.
>
> (MJW)
> Well, Since we are simply expressing opinions here let me clearify your
> beliefs.
> You have said TSR has done nothing but make money the legal way(in your
> opinion). Does this then mean that a company is incapable of doing something
> wrong as long as they act according to the law? By this deniôn
> segregaôn was not wrong un^l the supreme court decided it was.
>
> (MJW)
> I believe that TSR has done many things wrong. That of course is just my
> opinion which I will not express in detail unless asked.
>
> (Edited)
>
> > This stoppage was with a
> >consumers point of view not boycoker. I started playing AD&D in 1980.
> >In 13 years, I was hopeing for the AD&D system to mature and become
> >beker. It never did. The system expand to bookshelf proporôn, but
> >never got any beker. I blame this expanôn to TSR's "the bokom line"
> >aitude without any or likle consideraôn of product quality. Un^l I
> >am ready to write my own fantasy game(which I am seriously considering),
> >MYTHUS is my current fantasy game, or un^l something else beker comes
> >along.
> If TSR changes their system to something beker, I might buy it.
>
>
> > I placed this on the listserv so you and anyone else that may care or
> >quesôn me will know where I stand. I hope this answers you guesôn.
> >
> >Later,
> > -=+>Mike Wikek
> >
> >
> >DISCLAIMER: All that I write is my own opinion, and my opinion may not
> >be the opinion of my school or electronic courier. For that maker, it
> >may not be your opinion, but deal with it.
> >
> >Good Gaming,
> aikido@cris.com
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 01:48:05 EDT

(SNIP)
>>>At 02:23 PM 10/6/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Michael Weaver,
> As you requested, I shall answer you boycok issue. I personally
would
>not use the term boycok to discribe me not buying TSR products. Boycok
>is used when a company has done some great wrong that the public use to
>force a company to concede such a wrong. I do not have any proof that
>TSR has done anything but make money the legal way. So, whatever TSR
>has done to any individual, company, or game system that I have been
>able to prove, it has just added to my irritaôn with TSR.

(MJW)
Well, Since we are simply expressing opinions here let me clearify your
beliefs.
You have said TSR has done nothing but make money the legal way(in your
opinion). Does this then mean that a company is incapable of doing
something
wrong as long as they act according to the law? By this deniôn
segregaôn was not wrong un^l the supreme court decided it was.

(MJW)
I believe that TSR has done many things wrong. That of course is just my
opinion which I will not express in detail unless asked.

(Edited)<<<<
(SNIP)

(CRS)
I believe Mr. Wikek said that T$R made $ the legal way, and never
menôned right or wrong, in your paraphrased statement. Who is to say
what is right and wrong, and what are the penalês or rewards for each?
Everyone has thier own opinion as to right and wrong, and some people
probably think slavery isn't wrong, much less segregaôn.
IMNSHO, If T$R HAD done anything illegal (not unscrupulous) in making
their $, wouldn't someone be in jail? or have a law suit led? or have
been gunned down by vigilante Role-Players? Idunno.
My quesôn is: why MJW, do you want to debate right and wrong? Mr.
Wikek prefers not to use the term boycok for his not buying T$R
products, and he said why he felt that "boycok" was too strong a word.
That's it.......cut and dry.

Also, I just saw something very interes^ng. It is very akorney-like or
reporter-like.

Mr. Wikek Said, and i quote,
"I do not have any proof that TSR has done anything but make money the
legal way"

and MJW said, and I quote,
"You have said TSR has done nothing but make money the legal way"

Now, something here just doesn't add up. These are TWO totally dierent
statements.

Wai^ng to get back to the gaming discussion,
Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 02:15:00 -0400

> Wai^ng to get back to the gaming discussion,
> Chris
>
Amen to that. I suggest that this debate be con^nued over private email,
if it must con^nue. I do recall there were actually some produc^ve,
game-related threads on the list lately...

However, just to add my own spam, but more to sa^sfy my curiousity,
would there happen to be anyone on the list from northwestern
Massachuseks? Specically, around Williams College, as I don't have a
car.

Charles Hagenbuch
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 09:00:40 -0500

From: "Bilbrey, Jason E" <jbilb682@UWSP.EDU>
Subject: Spells...what am I doing wrong?

I know Mythus is a higly magical world, so I must be doing something
wrong.

I know how to generate what spells you start out with, etc...

Its seems though that in our adventures, magick is SO WEAK... Fighters
and warriors can kill things in one round. Dweomercraevers barely even
scratch the surface...

What am I doing wrong? Could someone pick a few combat spells that a
normal new player might have and explain in detail the steps for using
the spell including heka costs, damage done, etc...thanks, I know I must
be doing something wrong...

--------------------------------------------------------------Jason Bilbrey
jbilb682@uwsp.edu
"Failure is not in falling, but in refusing to get back up..."
--------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 11:33:29 EDT

>>What the fuck is wrong with you? You always have to get the last word
in,
try to prove you're right. Get over it.<>>What am I doing wrong? Could someone pick a few combat spells that a
be doing something wrong...<<<

Well, some useful cas^ngs, even for "ghter" types, are quicken
cantrip, Armor Physical, mental, et. al., cantrips, and the ever present
Trigger eect Formula.
Even in a "ghter" heavy world these simple (cas^ng grade III max) can
help not only ghter types, but also anyone able to use them. It'd hard
(not impossible) to wipe out someone in One CT if you've got to get past
his plate armor, AND heka produced Armor as well.........
I'd use the quicken cantrip on your OPs or EPs and show the ghter havy
party that even simple heka is a force to be reckoned
with....................

Just my .02BUCs worth,
Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 15:33:12 -0400

<< Its seems though that in our adventures, magick is SO WEAK... Fighters
scratch the surface...

What am I doing wrong? Could someone pick a few combat spells that a
be doing something wrong... >>

In general, this is absolutely correct. DCraevers are weak in direct combat
magicks. I use a standard hit locaôn roll for many akack type cas^ngs
which have physical (or quasi physical) characteris^cs. This includes Force
Dart, but not Heka Dart, etc. I can't provide a complete list as I don't
have my materials on-hand.

DCraevers can provide a great deal of indirect combat support though the use
of cas^ngs such as Quicken, Armor, Physical, etc. Quicken in par^cular is
powerful enough that we have raised it to Grade II, and increased the cost to
35 Heka per persona aected. Don't even get us started on Trigger. Please,
please don't. Just look through the archives if you're interested.

Interes^ngly enough, the Fireash Cantrip doesn't do a horrendous amount of
physical damage although it can be substanâl, however, the collateral
eect of blinding can be devasta^ng. We decreased it to 1 CT per STEEP (or
is it point?), then did away with it altogether. If either side was unlucky
they ended up with an en^re group slightly scorched but blind for 15 minutes
or more.

If this helps, you're welcome to it. If not, just ignore it.

Later

Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 15:17:28 -0600
From: Anthony Emmel <Z_EMMELAN@TITAN.SFASU.EDU>
Subject: New member

Chello.

I am new to the list and just wished to inroduce myself. My name is
ANthony N. Emmel and I've been gaming since I was 12 (1982). My rst
RPG was NOT T$R's D&D but rather Gamma World (1st ed). I think that
since then I've played just about everything on the market and have
nally sekled down to playing Traveller (the new 4th ed.), MERP,
GURPS, and Mythus (current running Mythus and GURPS Avermath conversion,
playing in a MERP campaign, and seing up Trav).

As to more personal info, I am 26, marrried, and have a 3 month daughter
who is the apple of my eye and am a senior at Stephen F. Aus^n U in
Nacogdoches, Texas (2 hrs. nort of Houston, about 2 1/2 SE of Dallas),
majoring in History and PoliSci. I am a na^ve of Longview, Texas, CSA, a
vetern of the Panama "invasion", member of the SCA and the Empire of
Chivalry and Steel (7 yrs. in one, 5 in the other), and am also a member
of the Longview HIstory Club (formerly the Gregg County Civil War Round
Table) and the Naônal Associaôn for the Promoôn of the Study of La^n.

I adore Tolkien and am currently reading volume IX of the History of Middle
Earth and Gygax's "Ar^fact of Evil"; to my young daughter I am reading
The Hobbit and DRagonlance #1. (And have been reading to her since before
she was born). My wife, Beth is the love of my life and she generally
plays Elves; but her elves, while similiar in appearance, are always
dierent in personality and style (i.e., One is a swashbucker who fences
and uses pistols, another is a ranger, another is a cleric/thief).

Hmmm......I think that about covers it for now. I too new to see what threads
are going on right now, but I'll seee aver a couple of days I'm sure and
jump right on in.

By the way, if anyone needs new Mythus books, the best supply I've found
is at: hkp://www.sentrybox.com/
Sentry box is up in Canada, but they will accept (for a $3 fee I believe it is)
internaônal money orders in U.S. funds for mail order. They also have
Mythus in stock s^ll (incl. Besâry).

Well, bye for now,

Anthony N. Emmel
Lord Dalgard the Dark Mage

"Power is not evil nor is it a reality; it is a tool." (Dalgard before
the Bakle of Selene Pass on Oerth; he fought on the side of Good).
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 00:00:59 +0200
From: Thomas Biskup <tb@SARANXIS.RUHR.DE>
Subject: EGG Interview

Hi!

I just thought that all the EGG/Mythus fans on this list might be
interested in reading this interview with Gary Gygax at the following URL:
hkp://www.10mb.com/252rpg/252-news/news13/gygax/gygax-e.html
It's a likle older (1993 I think) but very interes^ng. Gary menôns
another world seing he was working on at that ^me (Aroth? I think
that's the name) besides AErth... does anyone know anything about that?

Gree^ngs from Germany,

Thomas Biskup.

-Thomas Biskup email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
I refuse to let arithme^c decide quesôns like that."
-- Data and Picard, "Jus^ce", stardate 41255.6
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 21:13:49 EDT
Subject: Re: New member

>>> (1982). My rst
RPG was NOT T$R's D&D but rather Gamma World (1st ed). <<<

IMNSHO, BAck then it was TSR and not T$R...........
Now, however............<sigh>

Just my .02BUCs worth,
Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 09:34:58 -0500

Ok, slightly modied Cas^ng Memorizaôn rules:
>
> Cas^ng Memorizaôn
>
> Number of Cas^ngs Known is equal to MMCap.
> Number of Cas^ngs Recallable is equal to MMPow.
> Number of Cas^ngs Studyable is limited to those in the caster's Spellbooks.
>
> To cast a Recallable cas^ng requires that the HP rst recall the cas^ng by
> succeeding in a DR Moderate vs. MMCap per CT un^l successfull. On the
> following CT the cas^ng may be cast. A Special Failure on this roll will
> result in the cas^ng being moved to the Studyable Cas^ngs list.
>
> A Special Failure when akemp^ng to cast a Known Cas^ng will result in it
> being moved to the Recallable list.
> A Special Failure when akemp^ng to cast a Recallable Cas^ng will result in
> it being moved to the Studyable list.
>
> To move a cas^ng from the Studyable list to the Recallable list requires 6
> hours of intensive study per cas^ng grade with at least 6 hours of study per
> day and a DR Hard against MMCategory. If successful it will displace one
> >
> > I think you should use MMSpd in this formula, how long one try to
> > study spell will take. (And it'll make some dierence between magincians
> > with same MMCap, but dierent MMSpeeds... Magincian can be fast to
> > memerize things with lower power...) I think (30 - MMSpd)/2 hours per
> > grade might be good enough.

I would do this except it would add more complicaôn than I want. If I
did this I would use the formula (32-MMSpd)/2 hours. That way even the
highest MMSpd value would have a minimum of one hour per grade.

> other cas^ng that has not been used recently at random to the Studyable list.
> If a Special Failure is rolled then one Recallable cas^ng at random is moved
> to the Studyable list and no cas^ng replaces it. If a Special Success is
> rolled then no Recallable cas^ng is displaced or the cas^ng is moved to the
> Known list and possibly displaces one on the Known list. Displacement is only
> possible when there are no more spaces on the Recallable list.
>
> > I think caster might also try to forget one par^cular cas^ng,
> > instead of random replacement. (It'll take some ^me, I think at least as
> > much as to memorize something, and DR Moderate roll against MMPow.
> > Succesful roll means, he wasn't able to do it... You might start to hate
> > your inability to forget...)

I think the forgeing is handled nicely by the roll for success. If you
can't succeed in the roll you can't forget.

I prefer random replacement because you do not have good control over your
mind like that. You can't decide what to remember and what to forget.
You can try to remember stu by going over it again and again, but you
cannot try to forget.

> To move a cas^ng from the Recallable list to the Known list requires 4 hours
> of intensive study per cas^ng grade with at least 6 hours of study per day
> and a DR Dicult against MMCategory. If successful it will displace one
> other cas^ng that has not been used recently at random to the Recallable
> list. If a Special Failure is rolled then one Known cas^ng at random is
> moved to the Studyable list and the cas^ng is moved onto the Studyable list
> and no cas^ng replaces it. If a Special Success is rolled then no Known
> cas^ng is displaced. Displacement is only possible when there are no more
> spaces on the Known list.

Dan "I hate cabling problems" Williamson
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 18:51:41 +0300
In-Reply-To: <m0vAdPD-000AG0C@Uucp1.mcs.net> from "Dan Williamson" at Oct 8,
96 09:34:58 am

>
> Ok, slightly modied Cas^ng Memorizaôn rules:
> >
> > Cas^ng Memorizaôn
> >
> > Number of Cas^ngs Known is equal to MMCap.
> > Number of Cas^ngs Recallable is equal to MMPow.
> > Number of Cas^ngs Studyable is limited to those in the caster's Spellbooks.
> >

[Some stu snipped]

> > > I think caster might also try to forget one par^cular cas^ng,
> > > instead of random replacement. (It'll take some ^me, I think at least as
> > > much as to memorize something, and DR Moderate roll against MMPow.
> > > Succesful roll means, he wasn't able to do it... You might start to hate
> > > your inability to forget...)
>
> I think the forgeing is handled nicely by the roll for success. If you
> can't succeed in the roll you can't forget.
>
> I prefer random replacement because you do not have good control over your
> mind like that. You can't decide what to remember and what to forget.
> You can try to remember stu by going over it again and again, but you
> cannot try to forget.

I think some skills should help in this. For example, IMO, Yoga
might be good example of such skill. I also think some Mental skill should
do the same, allow character to forget spells they know. Of course, if you
fail in these rolls, it'll chosen by random...

Also, same should be done to Spiritual spells, but SP (or SM, I
never remember which corresponds to Mnemonic) is used instead MM...

Kautsu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 14:07:40 -0500
In-Reply-To: <96Oct8.185151+0300_eet_dst.14822-422+90@utu.> from "Ani
Kauâinen" at Oct 8, 96 06:51:41 pm

> > I prefer random replacement because you do not have good control over your
> > mind like that. You can't decide what to remember and what to forget.
> > You can try to remember stu by going over it again and again, but you
> > cannot try to forget.
>
> I think some skills should help in this. For example, IMO, Yoga
> might be good example of such skill. I also think some Mental skill should
> do the same, allow character to forget spells they know. Of course, if you
> fail in these rolls, it'll chosen by random...
>
> Also, same should be done to Spiritual spells, but SP (or SM, I
> never remember which corresponds to Mnemonic) is used instead MM...

IN my version of the Magic rules all spells use MM for determinaôn of
how many you can remember. And S Trait is the rst Trait that provides
Heka, then Mental then Physical.

It is the Spirit which powers the magick and it is the Mind (mental) which
directs its power.

Dan "My mind is my weapon" Williamson
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 20:11:56 -0700
Subject: Where are the humanoids on Outer AErth?

To All:

I am trying to set up for a MYTHUS game, so I am trying to get as clear
and detailed view of the Outer AErth world as possible. My biggest

problem lies with the humanoids. THE EPIC OF AERTH discusses there
existance in Phaerie, but I have not found much about humaniods in outer
Aerth. Since some players are interested in playing humaniods, I would
like a rm understanding of the ecology, places resided, and current
populaôns of the humanoids on outer Aerth. If someone can point out a
supplement and page number or has some suggesôn, I would appriciate
it.

Thanks
------------------------------------------------------------------
-=*>Mike Wikek |"Democracy isn't just the best form

-=*>USF engineering student |of government; it's the only one

-=*>wikek@suntan.eng.usf.edu|even remotely worth a damn.

|Only democracy guarantees that

|people get what they deserve."

| -Zena Marley

-----------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER: All that I write is my own opinion, and my opinion may not


=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 20:21:47 -0400

<<However, If TSR contacts me and wishes me to include their
games as RPG playing choices at gaming convenôns under our banner and send
me wriken permission to do so I will immediately add them to our RPG
oering list.>>

<<Should White Wolf or FASA contact me and tell me that they do not wish for
their games to be oered through the IRPGA at gaming convenôns as a
playing choice I will then not oer them.>>

Hmm, let's see, TSR has to ask to be included, but all others need to ask to
be NOT included. Nah, I don't see any bias there.:)

<<I do not exclude these (white wolf and FASA) oragnizaôns automa^cally
because to the best of my knowledge they do not support organizaôns that
ac^vely promote their games as playing choices at gaming convenôns.>>

The RPGA does oer Earthdawn events and will soon have it's rst World of
Darkness event. By your logic your should exclude White Wolf, FASA, and West
End. They all have events oered by the RPGA and that can only happen with
the publisher's approval and assistance.

Perhaps one needs to remember that even the smallest most informal con has
certain business consideraôns to keep in mind. If you want certain events
to be held at cons, you have to convince the con organizers that they can
ll tables with it.

Tom Hammerschmidt
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 20:50:50 -0500

You Wrote:

>I know Mythus is a higly magical world, so I must be doing something
>wrong.
>
>I know how to generate what spells you start out with, etc...
>
>Its seems though that in our adventures, magick is SO WEAK... Fighters
>and warriors can kill things in one round. Dweomercraevers barely even
>scratch the surface...

We have been playing a while and we now have the planning to use magick to
accent or even prevent bakles. At this point we spend most of our eorts
avoiding physical conict b-c of the deadly nature. This is the *best*
way to have a prolonged campaign. Other suggesôns include using redied
cas^ng to speed up cas^ng ^me, precast spells and triggers, and use
parrying rules.

>What am I doing wrong? Could someone pick a few combat spells that a
>normal new player might have and explain in detail the steps for using
>the spell including heka costs, damage done, etc...thanks, I know I must
>be doing something wrong...

I don't thing anything is wrong if you are having fun. Combat in this
system is realis^c, and in that sence, it IS deadly. Try to mo^vate team
work by coordina^ng combat and cas^ngs: Spellsongs are great, Well
tenebouse sp? Blade, many many triggers, hours of the XXXXX, etc... Sonic
Blasts, Quagmire and other quick spell can also be a blast! As a beginner
I played a Spellsinger with very likle combat. I support the adventure by
using other various K/S adventures. It's great!

Good Gaming!

AJ=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 22:32:21 -0400

(Edited)

>Hmm, let's see, TSR has to ask to be included, but all others need to ask to
>be NOT included. Nah, I don't see any bias there.:)

><because to the best of my knowledge they do not support organizaôns that
>ac^vely promote their games as playing choices at gaming convenôns.>>
>
>The RPGA does oer Earthdawn events and will soon have it's rst World of
>Darkness event. By your logic your should exclude White Wolf, FASA, and West
>End. They all have events oered by the RPGA and that can only happen with
>the publisher's approval and assistance.

(MJW)
Perhaps, I was unclear on this. I stated that I would not run without
permission currently supported TSR games. If this service is being oered
there is no need for my organizaôn to oer it.

(MJW)
As I have publicly stated the IRPGA came about aver akending a convenôn
where the RPGA(not the con) oered only AD&D 2nd ed. events. The IRPGA
would not oer the same games that the con or TSR and/or any of its
aliates oer at convenôns. The IRPGA purpose at convenôns is to
present more choice of the RPG's oered.

(MJW)
Where Earthdawn, WW, FASA, And West End games are oered, the IRPGA will
not oer them, they are thus excluded. However, where a company's RPG is
not represented at a convenôn we will oer that. For instance if no White
Wolf Game is oered at a convenôn the IRPGA might oer a game of Vampire.

(MJW)
If I ever see a major gaming convenôn, where the IRPGA will be, without a
TSR game present, I promise to write to TSR and ask them if they would like
their RPG's(any of them) oered as a playing choice through the IRPGA.

(MJW)
Just in case it was not clear the IRPGA is bias in selecôn of what RPGs to
oer at convenôns. Preference will be given to s^ll popular but
unsupported or out of print games and new RPGs from small publishing
companies that could use the convenôn as a way of spreading the word about
their new RPG. Probably only one popular game from a major company that is
not oered by the convenôn or any other organizôn present will be
oered by the IRPGA.
>
>Perhaps one needs to remember that even the smallest most informal con has
>certain business consideraôns to keep in mind. If you want certain events
>to be held at cons, you have to convince the con organizers that they can
>ll tables with it.

(MJW)
The convenôn proper will not be oering these RPGs, the IRPGA will be
oering them. This is just an added bonus of extra games for the convenôn
to oer. We hope at rst to simply catch those players that couldn't get
in the other oerings because they were full or the players with ^me to
kill before other RPG's they signed up for start. I do hope to convince
convenôn organizers to give us this chance.
>
>Tom Hammerschmidt
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 23:00:38 -0400


<< As I have publicly stated the IRPGA came about aver akending a
convenôn
where the RPGA(not the con) oered only AD&D 2nd ed. events. >>

Let's see, the RPGA runs about 2 or 3 cons a year and they oer mover than
just TSR stu when they do. For other cons, some part of the convenôn
sta, probably but not necessarily RPGA members, makes a choice about what
they want to run.

I do wish you the best of luck, but what you said is that TSR has to ask to
be included and all others need to ask to be not included. Your reason has
to do with the representaôn by the RPGA of TSR related stu, but that
truly ignores the fact that the greatest number of events at most cons have
nothing to do with the RPGA. I think you need to ask the quesôn, why are
TSR products so well represented outside the RPGA?

What you are trying to do is going to take a ton of work and will appeal to a
small porôn of the overall market. That just makes things tougher. Be
careful about how you present things, or you'll make everybody feel like they
have to choose sides, and the odds are, you'll never have the resources to
oer everybody's favorite system.

Tom Hammerschmidt
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 00:30:31 EDT
Subject: Re: Where are the humanoids on Outer AErth?

Mike,
Some races are described in the Besâry, but as for the Phaeree
races..........
That was stu that never got released. I remember a "raw" Phaeree
Besâry released (NOT FOR PROFIT, T$R!) on this list a while ago, and
there was talk of members taking those unnished porôns and nishing
them for our own use and enjoyment, but I don't know if that was ever
done.........

These are the projects that I know about that were never
nished/released
Phaeree Besâry
City of Ascalon
The Unhallowed
and a pantheology type sourcebook

anything else, guys?

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 02:55:31 -0400

At 11:00 PM 10/8/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
><< As I have publicly stated the IRPGA came about aver akending a
>convenôn
> where the RPGA(not the con) oered only AD&D 2nd ed. events. >>
>
>Let's see, the RPGA runs about 2 or 3 cons a year and they oer mover than
>just TSR stu when they do.

(MJW)
Agreed.

For other cons, some part of the convenôn
>sta, probably but not necessarily RPGA members, makes a choice about what
>they want to run.

(MJW)
True only in part. For instance the Houston con I akended had games the
convenôn oered and games ARGH(Associaôn of Roleplaying Gamers Houston)
a chapter of the RPGA oered. The ARGH games were organized and oered by
ARGH not the convenôn organizers.
>
>I do wish you the best of luck, but what you said is that TSR has to ask to
>be included and all others need to ask to be not included.

(MJW)
Yes, but the reason for this is that they are already represented at
convenôns. I do not feel that a gaming company that does not have their
product represented at a convenôn would object to us oering it. I admit
I am brand new to this and may be in error on this idea. If White Wolf is
going to be present at a convenôn I would not oer their games(since they
are) unless they requested that I included then in our RPGs oerings.

Your reason has
>to do with the representaôn by the RPGA of TSR related stu, but that
>truly ignores the fact that the greatest number of events at most cons have
>nothing to do with the RPGA.

(MJW)
The RPGA's representaôn is not the only reason though. The issue is that
the products are represented at all. If the convenôn oers AD&D as a
playing choice then the IRPGA will not. If the convenôn oers Vampire as
a playing choice then the IRPGA will not. The reasons also include legal
consideraôns. If the IRPGA oers the same game systems that the RPGA does
and I oer them for free, then I am infringing(or hampering) their ability
to make money. The RPGA does collect membership dues, I do not.

I think you need to ask the quesôn, why are
>TSR products so well represented outside the RPGA?

(MJW)
That seems a rather simple quesôn. TSR products are well represented at
almost all gaming convenôns because AD&D is the s^ll the most popular RPG
of all ^me. Thus, I don't think oering AD&D as a playing choice would
increase the diversity of RPG oerings at gaming convenôns, which is the
main reason for the IRPGA's presence at convenôns.
>
>What you are trying to do is going to take a ton of work

(MJW)
Agreed

and will appeal to a
>small porôn of the overall market.

(MJW)
Perhaps, but if that is the porôn of the market going unserved then there
should be something there for them. I believe the market is large enough
that some small publishing companies with new RPG's might want to introduce
that small porôn to their new RPG's.

That just makes things tougher. Be
>careful about how you present things, or you'll make everybody feel like they
>have to choose sides, and the odds are, you'll never have the resources to
>oer everybody's favorite system.

(MJW)
No person or corporaôn has the resources to oer everybody's favorite system.
I just believe that players/gamers should have more choices oered to them
at convenôns. Maybe someone would like to play Dr. Who or Tales From The
Floa^ng Vagabond or many other RPGs while they had some ^me to kill before
their Vampire, AD&D, etc. games. Perhaps some gamers would like to play and
be aware of what new products from smaller companies were on the market and
what they were like.
>
>Tom Hammerschmidt
>
>Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 16:46:55 -0400

From: aikido@CRIS.COM (Michael J. Weaver)

> (MJW)
> As I have publicly stated the IRPGA came about aver akending a convenôn
> where the RPGA(not the con) oered only AD&D 2nd ed. events. The IRPGA
> would not oer the same games that the con or TSR and/or any of its
> aliates oer at convenôns. The IRPGA purpose at convenôns is to
> present more choice of the RPG's oered.

As having been involved in running a convenôn (Madicon, a small local
con), I know that the decision as to what games a given convenôn provides
as RPGA events are preky much up to the con organizers, not RPGA. In one
Madicon, the organizers requested and received an RPGA adventure for FASA's
Star Trek, well aver the game had died because of pressure from Paramount.
Did you speak with the con organizers at this con to see if it was their
request for AD&D games (or lack of request for other games) that resulted in
this omission? Perhaps this was during that short period that RPGA said that
it would stop oering non-TSR games at cons for legal reasons? They've
since recinded this policy, but require permission from the publisher of the
game in quesôn before they can oer it as an RPGA event.
Most of the ^me, RPGA cannot oer RPGA events for certain games
because they simply don't have the adventures. TSR doesn't write most RPGA
adventures...most are wriken by freelancers oering their adventures to
RPGA for free. If a game isn't popular enough or happens to not have someone
who's sent in an adventure to RPGA, chances are they can't support it as an
RPGA event, because they don't have an adventure to oer.

> (MJW)
> If I ever see a major gaming convenôn, where the IRPGA will be, without a
> TSR game present, I promise to write to TSR and ask them if they would like
> their RPG's(any of them) oered as a playing choice through the IRPGA.

Chances are you won't have to do this, but I suspect you know this. Any con
that doesn't have AD&D games present, while suppor^ng other rpgs, has done
so consciously. And, quite simply, they're gonna piss o a lot of people if
they don't reveal this beforehand, and they're not gonna get a lot of people
to show if they do. Trying to run obscure or unpopular games at convenôns,
especially smaller ones, is problema^c, as most people won't sign up for a
game they're not familiar with. I know that I've tried to run a Mythus game
three years in a row at Madicon. The rst two folded aver I got one or two
people to show up, the last was successful, but only because my regular
gamers showed up for it. :(

Just my .02

Lucifer >:}
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 15:44:47 -0600
Subject: Haven, the Free City

Haven, The Free City is a mul^-user shared world set in a renaissance city
state. Though the populaôn of the City is predominantly human, other races do
live within its walls: Haven is a diverse city, full of many strange and
wondrous sights. Visitors will encounter scholars and merchants, priests and
courtesans, traders and bureaucrats.

On the surface, the city is poli^cally and economically stable; yet
underneath, it teems with intrigue -- between noble and guildsman, mage and
mundane, and on down to the two rival criminal organizaôns vying for control
of it's underworld and the rival religions sects vying for control of the
masses. Above all, Haven is a city lled with opportunity for anyone that
enters its gates.

HAVEN IS NOT A 'MUD', nor even a 'MU*' in the tradiônal sense: The city is an
online, mulûser, interac^ve game using the excellent Dangerous Journeys Game
system (by Gary Gygax and Dave Newton) as is 'mechanics base' -- and oers a
rich Role-playing environment with many other players to create the best story
possible.

Haven, the Free City features:
-A seamless, painless character creaôn, skill system, combat and magick use,
u^lizing one universal mechanic.
-Fully coded combat (including missile weapons and rearms), magick, and item
handling.
-A realis^c economy, including detailed but simple 'facôn economies' and the
ability to act as PC smith, clotheir, leatherworkers... even horse breeders.
-One of the most RP conducive, true to life, and ins^nc^ve interfaces on the
Internet today, designed to be easy for a veteran online gamer to assimilate
and the new gamer to learn.

Check us out at nova.dimensional.com 2323, or visit our web page at
hkp://www.dimensional.com/~bear/haven/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:52:21 +1300
Subject: Phoenician coinage

Hi folks

Those of you running Aerth will likely have no^ced that the Phoenician
standard coinage is missed out of the coinage table, and everywhere else.

I think the informaôn was given in MMM#4 -- would one of the Ancient Old
Ones who actually have a copy care to post the info to the list, for
"purposes of fair dealing or review"? Aver all, Phoenician traders can't
deal fairly with HPs if their very coinage is in quesôn.

Malcolm
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 10:00:25 +0000
Subject: Re: Phoenician coinage
In-Reply-To: <v01540b01ae81d9e42d6b@[202.36.219.4]>

On Thu, 10 Oct 1996, Malcolm Bowers wrote:

> Those of you running Aerth will likely have no^ced that the Phoenician
> standard coinage is missed out of the coinage table, and everywhere else.

Phonecian:
Gold: sheckel
Electrum: semirel
Silver: talent
Copper: obol
Bronze: mina

Which, I suppose, means it would take a mina-mal talent to dredge this up ;-)

I would be curious to know, from the history bus on the list, if this
was the coinage the Phoenicians were known to use. I suspect the answer
is yes (although perhaps not in the exact raô posited by Epic of AErth).

Informaôn is condensed from Mythic Masters Magazine, Volume 1, Issue 4,
December 1993. The (c) no^ce is Omega Helios, Ltd., but has been
transferred to TSR, Inc. It is reproduced here for purposes of
discussion.

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 07:02:20 -0400


<< Its seems though that in our adventures, magick is SO WEAK... Fighters
scratch the surface... >>

You are doing nothing wrong. This eases a great problem from AD&D, i.e. the
dreadnaught wizards. Try using spells that immobilize, hamper, or distract;
it will then help your ghter-types kill the enemy.

It is combined arms, not nukes that win in Mythus.

Timo
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 10:32:49 -0400

Subject: Some Mythus stu might be available

They are moving the last bits of stu out of the remnants of the old
Mail Order Hobby Shop, and they are selling of the remaining loose
product that is there. There is some Mythus stu there, and I'm
going to see if that is for sale, too. I have no interest in it myself,
but I know there are quite a few people looking for more copies of things.
I know for sure that they have at least one copy of Mythus Prime and
several of the Epic Of Aerth, as well as one other thing which has a name
I can't remember.

If it turns out that these are available for sale to TSR folks, is there
anyone out there that would want to buy them o of me, at cost + shipping?
They're giving us something like a 40% or 50% discount.

Once again: these _may_ be available, I'm not sure. Some of the stu
stacked
up there is reseved by other departments, but if it is, I wouldn't mind
picking
it up to help y'all out.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 17:06:07 +0200
Subject: Re: Some Mythus stu might be available

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
>
> They are moving the last bits of stu out of the remnants of the old
> Mail Order Hobby Shop, and they are selling of the remaining loose
> product that is there. There is some Mythus stu there, and I'm
> going to see if that is for sale, too. I have no interest in it myself,
> but I know there are quite a few people looking for more copies of things.
> I know for sure that they have at least one copy of Mythus Prime and
> several of the Epic Of Aerth, as well as one other thing which has a name
> I can't remember.
>
> If it turns out that these are available for sale to TSR folks, is
> there anyone out there that would want to buy them o of me, at cost
> + shipping? They're giving us something like a 40% or 50% discount.

I am especially interested in a copy of Epic of Aerth, but also the GM
Screen, the Besâry or Necropolis, should they have it.

Thanks a lot,
Joerg
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 10:57:30 -0500
Reynolds" at Oct 11, 96 10:32:49 am

> If it turns out that these are available for sale to TSR folks, is there
> anyone out there that would want to buy them o of me, at cost + shipping?
> They're giving us something like a 40% or 50% discount.
>

Sean,
I'd be interested in a copy of Mythus and Mythus Magic, maybe two copies
of the Magic book. Let us know.

Thanks,
Dan W.

uidm
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 11:38:00 -0500
Subject: Spells : Chapter 2!!!

Ok, rst of all I'd like to thank everyone for their help about leing
me know that spells aren't what they were in AD&D. Now could maybe 5
people in this list each choose a spells and outline the exact steps in
cas^ng it. Heka costs, damage done(eect), etc? I s^ll don't have a
handle on this. I'm a JM and have handled it, but I haven't even tried
to gure heka costs, let alone know if I even handled the spells right.

Maybe choose some that have mul^ple round damage eects...I also
remember a spell that caused people to faint or become dazed instantly.
This seemed too powerful cuz they would cast it and the enemy would
become dazed or pass out and the players would just hack them dead in a
few CTs. (dazed isn't right, the spell actually said they could
move...). I also had a witch who cast a spell that caused the person to
start on re and burn for x cts. It said it was con^nual re damage.
Does that mean that it causes x PD/ct ignoring all armor or what?

As you can tell I'm really confused and need some help guring out the
exact costs and outcomes of spells in general. Please help me.
--------------------------------------------------------------Jason Bilbrey
jbilb682@uwsp.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------->
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 11:38:47 -0500
Subject: Spells: Chapter 2

Ok, rst of all I'd like to thank everyone for their help about leing
me know that spells aren't what they were in AD&D. Now could maybe 5
people in this list each choose a spells and outline the exact steps in
cas^ng it. Heka costs, damage done(eect), etc? I s^ll don't have a
handle on this. I'm a JM and have handled it, but I haven't even tried
to gure heka costs, let alone know if I even handled the spells right.

Maybe choose some that have mul^ple round damage eects...I also
remember a spell that caused people to faint or become dazed instantly.
This seemed too powerful cuz they would cast it and the enemy would
become dazed or pass out and the players would just hack them dead in a
few CTs. (dazed isn't right, the spell actually said they could
move...). I also had a witch who cast a spell that caused the person to
Does that mean that it causes x PD/ct ignoring all armor or what?

As you can tell I'm really confused and need some help guring out the
exact costs and outcomes of spells in general. Please help me.
--------------------------------------------------------------Jason Bilbrey
jbilb682@uwsp.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------->

--------------------------------------------------------------Jason Bilbrey
jbilb682@uwsp.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 13:42:52 -0400

Subject: Re: Spells : Chapter 2!!!

<>

Yes, it is x PD/CT, however, normally the Fire ra^ng of the armor would
apply, and likely any Heka armor the persona had.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 14:17:08 EDT

>>As you can tell I'm really confused and need some help guring out the
exact costs and outcomes of spells in general. Please help me.<<

rst of all I'd like to ask you, do you have Mythus Magick?
If so, all it really takes is some reading to gure costs of simple
basic cas^ngs (which is what I'd recommend working with in the
beginning), like the Trigger eect formula, or quicken cantrip. Costs
can get complicated when you're dealing with "extras". Some will cost
more heka for every eect or extra damage die you wish to add (it is in
the actual cas^ng's descripôn). And some like the Armor Cantrips
allow you to put more heka into the cas^ng to gain a more powerful (or
protec^ve) eect.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 20:29:51 +0200

Hi Sean,

Thanks for thinking about us Mythus adepts/fana^cs/...

If possible, I'm very interested in the MMM's, electronic or paper
(please!!!!), and in a Mythus Prime book (Book 0) to complete my collecôn
of Mythus books.

Harold Stringer
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 15:09:00 -0500


---------From: Sean K Reynolds
Date: Friday, October 11, 1996 9:32AM

>They are moving the last bits of stu out of the remnants of the old
>Mail Order Hobby Shop, and they are selling of the remaining loose
>.product that is there. There is some Mythus stu there, and I'm
>going to see if that is for sale, too. I have no interest in it myself,
>but I know there are quite a few people looking for more copies of things.
>I know for sure that they have at least one copy of Mythus Prime and
>several of the Epic Of Aerth, as well as one other thing which has a name
>I can't remember.

>If it turns out that these are available for sale to TSR folks, is there
>anyone out there that would want to buy them o of me, at cost + shipping?
>They're giving us something like a 40% or 50% discount.

>Once again: these _may_ be available, I'm not sure. Some of the stu
>stacked
>up there is reseved by other departments, but if it is, I wouldn't mind
>picking
>it up to help y'all out.
->Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator

Well...I'd be up for having all of the MMMs...and another
Necropolis...and another Besâry....oh...ok...and Mythus Prime.

Wayne Westphalen
-
"Anyone who don't wanna get killed...best clear on out the back"...Clint
Eastwood
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 15:39:00 -0500

-------From: Sean K Reynolds

Date: Friday, October 11, 1996 9:32AM

>They are moving the last bits of stu out of the remnants of the old
>Mail Order Hobby Shop, and they are selling of the remaining loose
>.product that is there. There is some Mythus stu there, and I'm
>going to see if that is for sale, too. I have no interest in it myself,
>but I know there are quite a few people looking for more copies of things.
>I know for sure that they have at least one copy of Mythus Prime and
>several of the Epic Of Aerth, as well as one other thing which has a name
>I can't remember.

>If it turns out that these are available for sale to TSR folks, is there
>anyone out there that would want to buy them o of me, at cost + shipping?
>They're giving us something like a 40% or 50% discount.

>Once again: these _may_ be available, I'm not sure. Some of the stu
>stacked
>up there is reseved by other departments, but if it is, I wouldn't mind
>picking
>it up to help y'all out.
->Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator

Well...I'd be up for having all of the MMMs...and another
Necropolis...and another Besâry....oh...ok...and Mythus Prime.

Wayne Westphalen
-
"Anyone who don't wanna get killed...best clear on out the back"...Clint
Eastwood
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 16:58:02 EDT
X-To: TSRInc@aol.com

>>>If possible, I'm very interested in the MMM's, electronic or paper
(please!!!!)<<<

I second that one! I wonder how many people out of the 250 actually have
one or more copies of ANY issue..............................
I was unaware of it's existance un^l I joined this list.

Chris Stainton
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 17:04:46 +0000

Yes, let me know if this stu becomes available. Maybe a Gm screen
and a rule book.

Randy
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 17:10:44 -0500
Subject: Re: (IRPGA) and recent posts

> From: Re: from Lucifer

<snip> running Mythus events w/o telling its Mythus

...Chances are you won't have to do this, but I suspect you know this. Any con
>that doesn't have AD&D games present, while suppor^ng other rpgs, has done
>so consciously. And, quite simply, they're gonna piss o a lot of people if
>they don't reveal this beforehand,

...BIG TIME!!...

and they're not gonna get a lot of people
>to show if they do. Trying to run obscure or unpopular games at convenôns,
>especially smaller ones, is problema^c, as most people won't sign up for a
>game they're not familiar with. I know that I've tried to run a Mythus game
>three years in a row at Madicon.

Please let us know, and there *will* be a stonger akendence at the next
convenôn. At Gen Con this year there were two Mythus events ran by a
good friend of mine. Less than a dozen were involved, but they all had a
good ^me. Slowly this sort of thing gains momentum. When I rst started
DND no one had ever heard of it in a town of 50000! Aver many urges, one
bookstore nally carried it. Years later, Waldenbooks got involved.
Traveller was the same way. We as players and gamers made our own
materials, house interpretaôns, and adventures for fun or when we were
out of published material (this is back in the ^me of the B, G, and I
modules). Using this list, convenôns, and by invi^ng people to observe
and play is the way to promote the system. TSR bashing will get us
nowhere. Searching for the lost arc (ives) is a noble quest, but like the
crusades, is most likely too much ^me and money invested for the masses.
Let those who have the connecôns, ^me, and mo^vaôn be our Indiana
Jones and nd those items like UnHallowed, Ascalon, etc... and by their
generousity and our love of the system may they share the material when
found, just as we post our own rules, vocaôns, modules, and monsters to
share for the good of all who want to play.
Don't get me wrong, I want the lost materials as badly as everyone
else. However, if we con^nue to harass TSR, complain about not having
support, and harp on eachother by using this list *WE* the players and
supporters will lose out on the opportunity to akact more people to the
game as easily as people are turned o by nega^ve campaigning....And
there is no democracy in gaming.
For the sake of the game, let us focus our eorts in helping to
get Mythus support, materials, and experiences into anyone who would like
to try. Keep up the good work Lucifer and those who are contribu^ng to
support the system in a positve way, especially those WEB pages. Everyone
here means well, but if we take a step back, more energy is being spent
cri^cizing than building. We as players and JMs need the support of
others to con^nue, lets nish Pheree, analyze the rules, add cas^ngs to
the systems, expand the pantheologies... let's help eachother.

> The rst two folded aver I got one or two
>people to show up, the last was successful, but only because my regular
>gamers showed up for it. :(
>
>Just my .02

I know I have had a cap^ve audience for my soap box, if anyone wishes to
persue discussion on any makers I address, please e-mail. Thank you, and
Lucifer, call me. I'll akend your event. :)

AJ=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 20:52:50 -0400
Subject: Gary Gygax speaks yet again....
X-To: Wryter@aol.com, TSRRoger@aol.com, GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

This is star^ng to become a habit, but hopefully it won't...

Gary has a response to Roger's responses from about a week ago, both to
Roger and apparently another on AOL, as Frank Mentzer has been forwarding
messages to him. (And no, Gary is nowhere to be found in Cyberspace. He
is akin to Boccob--we few quasi-deiês must forward tasks to and from his
lair ;-) )

Anyway, this is going public again. Frank will make sure it gets posted to
AOL, Roger is lev in the loop of course, and the two Internet mailing
lists where this is important shall be included in the loop.

Since I've goken a few comments on it, I am addressing the leker to two
Internet Mailing Lists. The rst is the GreyTALK mailing list. To
subscribe to this list, mail a message to Listserv@MITVMA.MIT.EDU, with the
following subject

subscribe Greytalk "username"

The next Internet Mailing list is aimed at fans of the DANGEROUS JOURNEYS
Game. You can subscribe to that by e-mailing a message to
listserv@brownvm.brown.edu, with the following subject

subscribe mythus-l "username"

=======================

Dear John,

Some of the Response Material to your publishing of the stu I sent to you
was "kindly" dropped o by a friend--Frank Mentzer, stopping by to pass
along some other stu and so forth. Despite grumblings anbd my tossing it
aside, I did break down, waste ^me, and scan through it. Of course I have
to respond. Brother! Some guys sure give themselves airs!!! It has been
over a decade since I played AD&D, my Greyhawk campaign, and I admit my
memory ain't perfect. S^ll, to tell me what I wrote, meant, or had in
mind based on a few stray lines (some^mes promo^ng a work for a company
publicaôn, thus having hyperbole, shall we say) because it happens to be
drawn from reality (what's new) really stretches things. Are they
audiôning for posiôns as so-called inves^ga^ve journalists? Get a
life, come out of the dark, and live in sunshine. Lord a'mighty son. This
is tryin' on paênce.

As to NiteScreed: What's in a Name? The good fellow can't seem to
seperate fact and côn, so to speak. [Just a note--Frank is a SysOp on
AOL, and I assume NiteScreed is on that same network. I haven't seen his
comments directly--JRT] "Fibbing" is a baseless canard. As all who are
familiar with my work in this vein know, I postulate an innite mul^verse
with innite parallel worlds. How many Aerths, AErths, Aorths, Eerths,
Erths, Ierths, Irths, Oarths, Oerths, OErths, Uerths, Urths, Yarths,
Yerths, /et. al./ can their be? An endless number. And, dear friends,
let's be realis^c in this regard. All those spellings are to create world
names something like what we call this planet, earth, but not quite a
match. The reason is obvious: it indicates a parallel earth. So what is
the determinate to discover if one AErth or Yarth or whatever is the same?
Which is a parallel with the same name? First ask the author, for goodness
sake. He knows for sure. Next, if there is some reason to doubt, then
compare the material known about the two places. More about that in a bit.

NiteScreed is confused by a name, but the environment speaks as clearly as
I did regarding the maker. The DJ world of AErth is /not/ an environment
made to accomodate personas of the ilk of Basiliv, Gord-as-Cat Lord, etc.

It is orderly, compara^vely speaking. The Mistress of Pohjola is the
strongest magickal type on the world. Setne Inhetep is in the top handful
of human heka-wielders. Gord's home world, and anyplace he ends up as a
potent being too, tends towards the chao^c end of the parallel spectrum,
clearly. Gord never appeared on AErth because I wrote the world to be at
the opposite end of the tuner, so to speak, from the disorderly, highly
magickal worlds.

[I've plugged this before--but Gord will be ac^ve in the milieu(x) of
Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion, and perhaps elsewhere. A story
featuring him will be out from White Wolf's Borealis--I believe the ^tle
will be Pawns of Chaos, and it is an anthology collecôn, where the
authors hold their copyright. I think it's coming this Fall]

Yes, I used world names something akin to /earth/. No, that doesn't mean
that they are the same-or even much alike. Naturally, if worlds are
parallel to this one, Earth, they will have similariês. DJ's AErth has a
whole lot of similariês. That doesn't preclude other AErths exis^ng
along the parallel line that are unique unto themselves. The scope oered
by having an innite number of parallel worlds is just that--interes^ng
variances. It's my fault that I didn't use clearly dierent earth-type
names, but don't let a name get in the way! Think of the number of
interes^ng parallel world stories that didn't bother to slap the reader in
the face up front (pun intended), used "Earth" as the world name, but
detailed the dierences thereaver. So cas^gate me for not coming up
with an innite number of variant names for earth so that the reader would
know immediately that yet another parallel world was meant. DOn't tell me,
though, that I don't know which world is which. Sure I do.

Roger Moore is messing up s^ll more, and geing in deeper. I hate to put
him on the defensive, and to send him scurrying back to peruse yet more of
my works to nd his "proofs", but I can't let this kind of thing pass.

Dennis Sustarre might resent being lumped together with a lot of PCs and
made-up characters. Dennis was the crea^ve chap who rst postulated the
druid class for AD&D.

As to basing parts of the published GREYHAWK game on elements of history,
of course I did. Everything one does is based on what one knows, and this
applies to the wildest fantasy or "hard" SF. That doesn't mean that the
land masses were those of Earth. "Somewhat Similar" is /not/ "very much
like", let alone the same as or even equal to. Again, Roger, don't tell me
what I did. I did it and you didn't. Free-handing a con^nent for
publicaôn on a pair of maps is /not/ basing anything on the actual
geography of Earth, comments from the published work aside. Do quite
grasping at straws.

Next Roger confuses /my/ Greyhawk campaign with the published material.
How many more ^mes must I make the point that what I ran was not from the
box--although porôns of my campaign were later tailored so as to become a

part of the published body of Material?! Yes. In /my/ campaign a handful
of Norse gods did make a brief appearance for a ^me. At its peak, when
Rob Kuntz was co-GMing it with me, there were about 40 players ac^vely
engaged. Some were determined to have Norse deiês intervene. They
appeared, muddled about, and then went back to other realms, so to speak.
Likewise, a bit later on Francois Froideval had a mace of Zeus from another
campaign. It enabled him to call upon that Olympian deity for aid. So
what? The GREYHAWK material published had only its own pantheons. In my
campaign the only potent deiês were those that were peculiar to OErth,
amongst them those given in the published GREYHAWK material.

Type is not the same as actual. That is, barbarian types must resemble
something the writer knows of. Howard used the Cel^c as his base for
Conan. So what? A resemblance does not equal the same, otherwise horses
and cows would be one species. The Gypsy barge folk of Oerth are inspired
by the Gypsies of our own world, but unique, of course. This imagina^ve
sort of thing is known as crea^ve wri^ng. Ficôn arises from its
employment. Oerth has humans, and that immediately places denite
parameters upon all that follows.

Society implies some order. In a vaguely medieval society the social order
will be vaguely medieval. As all human language has more in common than it
does dierences, so to social organizaôn. To deal with fantasy based on
Earth, and D&D and GREYHAWK both do, one can use an ancient or medieval
feudalist society--or a post-holocaust variant. I opted for the medieval
and then ordered things accordingly, but very loosely. The prac^se is
found throughout virtually all fantasy--novels and games--in which a
medieval tone is desired.

"Pakerned aver" is indeed the opera^ve. The humans of STAR TREK are
pakerned aver what might come of a UN-governed future Earth, while the
(human) Romulans are pakerned aver barbaric cultures of Earth invested
with advanced technology. [I believe Gary means Klingons, since Romulans
seem more Roman based. Doesn't really maker--JRT] The fact is, being
humans, we all have a limited frame of reference, and from that we draw
upon material which we hope the reader/player will be able to relate to in
following the work created. S^ll, that does not mean that the "pakerned
aver" is the same as the drawn from. Of course it isn't. GREYHAWK had
vagye similariês to Earth as you note. DJ had carefully researched
/projecôns/ of medieval and Renaissance peoples and states of historical
sort altered so as to reect what I envisioned the eect of a slightly
dierent planet, anomalies such as Atlan^s (Atlantl) and Lemuria and
their peoples, opera^ve magick, and contact with the Phaeree realm might
have on such a place. There can be no logical comparison between the two.
Each has an absolutely dierent basis.

GREYHAWK was created out of whole cloth to suit the needs of AD&D players
needing a campaign basis, and a jumble of conic^ng human and non-human
cultures and socieês were tossed in to a con^nent made to accomodate
such on a map size dictated by the printers capacity and the budget
available to TSR at the ^me. All in all, I think I did a preky fair job,
considering the constraints. AErth was craved quite the opposite way
round. If completed it would need many, many maps to enable world-wide
campaigning. A simple comparison of the two environments makes it so
obvious as to need no addiônal explainaôn. What is the problem? It is
a maker of apples and oranges, no? Both are fruit, but that's the extent
of it.

AErth is based directly on /our/ Earth, and Phaeree is a mirror image of
AErth. Okay, I did reverse land and water in the interior worlds, so
technically Roger is correct in poin^ng out that the only reversed map of
Earth isn't Phaeree. That doesn't let him wiggle out of the fact that
nothing in GREYHAWK'S Oerth has anything to do with the reversed maps of
our world. Roger, you're at wrong.

So, Roger, why make leaps? You work in Lake Geneva and know my phone
number. Why not call and ask quesôns if you need informaôn on
GREYHAWK. Ture, I haven't a perfect memory, but I do know a hell of a lot
more about what I created than you do, I trust you will grant. I am not
angry, but this sort of exchange is as irrita^ng as hell, and as stupid as
can be to boot.

That the four Sagard (HEROES CHALLENGE) books took place on a world called
Yarth, with a city called Greyhawk, but with less magical properês than
Oerth, simply evidences the parallel worlds point I seem to have to keep
making. Why not tell everyone just how dierent from Oerth Yarth was
otherwise? It had some advanced technology, dierent peoples, and a
geography more like Earth than Oerth has. It had really weak magick, and
if a character such as Gord with his potent ar^facts were to appear there
he'd master the place. So there are Yarths and there are Yarths. There
can be a billion blasted Yarths. And each can be unique as the theme for
the work demands. Really, though, what's that got to do with anything?

Monsters found in D&D and AD&D are unique. Each and every criker I put
into D&D and AD&D is unique. The dwarves are unique, the elves, etc. That
is, they t the work for which they serve. However, the drow of the
dicônary are the basis for the drow of AD&D--they don't have the
characteris^cs and stats, but they are the basis. Trow are most certainly
akin to drow, also, despite Roger's baseless asserôn. Both are drawn
from "troll", and it so happens that a lot of contact occured between the
Bri^sh Isles, Scotland included, and Scandinavia. Both arrived in the
former from the laker. Their descripôns are similar. /I made the two
dierent only in quest of more monsters for the game./ If that isnt clear
to all who think about it, then the reader has never akempted to create
material for an ongoing game or run a campaign dependant on a lot of
strange adversaries. Not as strange as Needlemen, Adherers, or the
Samurai-Sword-Armed birds from FIEND FOLIO [Kenku--though these may be
based on Tengu--JRT], though, to name a few from that book that I certainly
did not use extensively in /my/ Greyhawk campaign, nor would I recommend to
others for their own.

[As far as FF goes, I should point out that Ed Greenwood wrote a scathing
review of the tome in Dragon 55 I believe. The Tome really was of mediocre
quality, it took a lot of work and major revision to t it in
successfully. While in my opinion, Monster Manual II was a more cohesive
work.]

In regards to authorship, Roger, be real! I didn't say that everything in
UNEARTHED ARCANA was my own creaôn. Leapin' Lizards! Back a good bit
before Jesus Christ was born Solomon said there was nothing new under the
sun. That aside, however, you weaseled and begged the quesôn. Do a word
count on all the material included in UNEARTHED ARCANA that was credited to
any other author other than me. It doesn't amount to more than a few
percent. Then consider that all of that material was created for a game
form I conceived and authored, made to conform to the game. Next, compare
any original materail with that which appeared in the work. I revised and
expanded everything to make it truly compa^ble with the underlying game.
Damn right if I am the sole /author/ of UNEARTHED ARCANA. How peky to say
otherwise. If the few bits in quesôn that I used, and for which I did
credit the authors, were removed, the book would not be substanâlly
lessened in value or usefulness. Talk about cart and horse confusion,
Roger, you seem to have it.

AErth and its akended places were craved to accommodate all manner of
campaigns based on a far more exible and broader game system, DJ, than
AD&D--that game for which GREYHAWK was meant. Dierent worlds, dierent
games, en^rely dierent approaches to RPGing, as typied by the "add or
subtract whatever you like" in DJ and the "ocial, no variants allowed"
stand needed to keep AD&D viable.[See next note--JRT] Again, I wrote much
of the former system and all of the laker, so I know. [And before anybody
jumps on him, Gary does consider Dave Newton a co-writer, but it was more a
back-or-forth revision and update process, by which Gary was nal writer
and thus author--he was Alpha and Omega--JRT] Maybe you don't like to face
that fact, but it is a fact. Yes, others contributed, but I was the
creator and the one who made it work, and fairly well too, if I do say so.
Sure, you can take the misinformaôn, disinformaôn, and nega^ng
posiôn that is the party line from TSR, but that doesn't alter the
actuality. Haven't seen much in the way of new material from TSR in a
long, long ^me... More rehashes anyone?

[On the DJ vs. AD&D stance: Gary has been cri^cized and known for taking
a stance on "ocial" and "unocial" works, and one of his most
controversial stances was published in Dragon #67. He states therin that
one can't call AD&D AD&D by using a variant game system. With DJ, he took
a looses stance, and didn't label status as "ocial" or "unocial". He
explained to me the following...

"/Game systems/ dictate "ocial" and note. AD&D was not a system able to
handle general input. If the would-be contributor misapprehended the
underlying system, then his addiôn would F**K-UP the game in short order.
The 2nd Ediôn at least recognized this. Note that variants of AD&D are
about 99.9%+ lousy. Lack of understanding of the bases opera^ng the game.
All they see is the esh cloaking the skeleton and muscle. DJ was
specically designed to allow for inclusion of just about anything. (That
was very dicult. That is why it took so long for me, who knows his
work, so long to do."

Thus the explainaôn for those who didn't understand, and hopefully an
explainaôn for those who have hated or disliked Gary ever since he wrote
the editorial. Somebody forward the above Gygax quote to Steve Miller
please. Anyway, back to Gygax--JRT]

In the end, what we're arguing about here isn't the Bible, Shakespear, or
anything even close. The upshot is that I don't want to waste any more
^me on this foolishness. From my perspec^ve, it appears you have some
sort of axe to grind, Roger. You say things that are at wrong, make
assertaôns that are misleading or baseless, and akempt to paint some
sort of picture that doesn't align with reality--at least not that of
/this/ par^cular earth, and I am at a loss to understand why. I assume
your eorts to be the great historian in regards to the GREYHAWK material
are sincere. Why not then be thorough and non-confrontaônal? Is it TSR
that makes you take such an indefensible posiôn? If so, then beker make
it clear to all that you are dening the maker as TSR deems it to be, not
necessarily as it is, revisionist history as it were. Granted, I don't
know jack about what has been added to what I created, the seminal
material, and the body of thw work to the mid 1980's, was my creaôn with
kindly assistance from enthusias^c others, yourself included, and I won't
ever be so rude as to try and second guess what you penned, old chap.

PS--If Roger is truly concerned about authorship credits, he should decry
TSR's removal of my name from the AD&D works currently published by TSR
without due name credit, for 2nd Ediôn is merely a revision of what I
created. The intent of /all/ this is clear, no?

==========================================

Now for a few comments of my own.

It was never my intent to start a conict. I approached Roger privately
aver looking at the Greyhawk Greydexes that Roger wrote. I was concerned
that he got Gord's ul^mate locale wrong, and was concerned about Legal
ramicaôns. When Roger quesôned, I gave him quotes from my
correspondance with EGG regarding that subject. He was pleased for the
claricaôns. I then wanted to give the Greydexes to Gary, with a few
comments in margins.

If there are any further replies, from Roger or others, that's ne, but I
will not be forwarding them to Gary Gygax immediately, if at all. Like he
said, he's very busy. (Despite not seeing output from him, he really does
work hard--think of it akin to a screenwriter or someone--only a small

percentage of projects get published).

As a nal note, the overall eect of this discussion has been posi^ve.
All have gained knowledge from this in some way. We got to see old Gygax
quotes from books long out of print (Gnome Cache, for instance), and we got
to see Gary explain things to the masses, geing more knowledge.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 21:52:13 -0700
Subject: Work on the second Beastary

I keep on hearing about this other beastary, and how others on this
listserv are working to nish it. Who is work on this unnished work
and is there any more room for those who would like to help?

Thanks,
Mike Wikek
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 23:29:45 +0000

I was unaware of these copies also.
I would like them though.

Randy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 04:53:54 -0400
Subject: Missing Sentence.
X-To: Wryter@aol.com, TSRRoger@aol.com, GREYTALK@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Forgive me, but I missed a sentence...

>NiteScreed is confused by a name, but the environment speaks as clearly as
I did >regarding the maker. The DJ world of AErth is /not/ an environment
made to >accomodate personas of the ilk of Basiliv, Gord-as-Cat Lord, etc.
It is orderly, >compara^vely speaking. ...

Orcs and Dragons, elves and ki-lin do not teem on or around it.

>...The Mistress of Pohjola is the strongest magickal type on the world.
Setne Inhetep >is in the top handful of human heka-wielders...

Also, all comments in brackets are mine, even if I don't end them with
--JRT. Missed a few of them.

Hey--you try typing all this in without errors! And one nal request on
that now: Give Gygax the benet of the doubt and assume it is my fault
if you use the [sic] quotaôn, please.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 14:54:49 -0500
Subject: Vocaônal Seing from Aria for Mythus

Here is an ARIA Vocaônal Seing developed for my Mythus game. I'm s^ll
not certain how to convert Skill and Akribute Ranks to Mythus STEEP and
Category values. If anyone has any good ideas I want to hear them.

What I was thinking of for STEEP was to give the player a certain amount
of AP/S or G's per year to spend on gaining K/S Areas related to a certain
subject. The exact amount of AP's gained would be related to the Internal
and External Potenâl of the seing where the learning is taking place.

Dan.

Vocaônal Seing

Tower of Ebon Shadows

Seing Prole

Locaôn: The Tower of Ebon Shadows
is located along a deserted streach the
southern coast of the Nabulan Empire
known as the Fangs of Hyrkan. It is a
rugged area with rocky hills and clis along
the coast. The Tower itself is located high
up on a hill right on the coast and is
dicult to reach.
Environ Class: Wilderness
Specializaôn: None
Purpose: Services
Prominence: 8
Internal Potenâl: 5
External Potenâl: 1
Cost of Seing: 5 IP

Exper^se Development

Internal Potenâl
Avaliable Exper^se Clusters
Magick (9)
Dweomercraev, Black (9)
Dweomercraev, Gray (7)
Dweomercraev, Elemental (5)
Demonology
Occul^sm
Necromancy
Toxicology
Exorcism
Conjuraôn
Sorcery
Exper^ses Avaliable/year: 5
Expendable IP/year: 10

External Potenâl
Avaliable Areas of Exper^se Development
Universal:
Langauge (Na^ve)
Current Events
First Aid
Percepôn
Handicravs
Survival
Status Archetypes:
Environ Class: Wilderness
Exper^ses Avaliable/year: 1
Expendable IP/year 2

Descripôn and History

The Tower of Ebon Shadows is the foremost center for training
Black Mages in all of
the Nabulan Empire. Only the Pits of Zareen in the Trajan Empire and
Kastria rival it. It
has existed for a great many generaôns, and certainly longer than
the Empire has.
Fortunately while individual members are, the Tower as a whole is not
interested in poli^cal
power and has strict rules against interfering in the aairs of Kings
and Emperors. The
Tower has faciliês for training and a few students are trained each
year. Aver a graduate
has been free for a while they are summoned back to the Tower for a
test. Nothing specic
is known of the test, those that pass it are close mouthed and the
students know only rumors
and tall tales. What is known is that many of the mages do not survive
the ordeal.
The Tower is a large rambling structure that has been bulit on
the side of a sea-cli
about 300 feet above the pounding surf. It has been added to many
^mes and is rumored to
contain many subterranean levels.

Copyright no^ce for the most copyright paranoid place on the gaming porôn
of the Internet: This thing is mine. If you intend to try and make money o
of it I want a cut. Of course the porôn that is Last Unicorn Game's is
theirs and I'm sure they will want a cut as well. :) Dan Williamson
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 23:01:09 -0500

--------------------------------------------------------------Jason Bilbrey
jbilb682@uwsp.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------->JB> I also had a witch who cast a spell that caused the person to
>JB> start on re and burn for x cts. It said it was con^nual re damage.
>JB> Does that mean that it causes x PD/ct ignoring all armor or what?
>
>RC>Yes, it is x PD/CT, however, normally the Fire ra^ng of the armor would
>RC>apply, and likely any Heka armor the persona had.

Ok, but if you look in the book it says con^nual and impact damage
types IGNORE armor. Wouldn't that be true in this case also???
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 23:03:51 -0500

>>>As you can tell I'm really confused and need some help guring out the
>exact costs and outcomes of spells in general. Please help me.<<
>
><rst of all I'd like to ask you, do you have Mythus Magick?
><If so, all it really takes is some reading to gure costs of simple
><basic cas^ngs (which is what I'd recommend working with in the
><beginning), like the Trigger eect formula, or quicken cantrip. Costs
><can get complicated when you're dealing with "extras". Some will cost
><more heka for every eect or extra damage die you wish to add (it is in
><the actual cas^ng's descripôn). And some like the Armor Cantrips
><allow you to put more heka into the cas^ng to gain a more powerful (or
><protec^ve) eect.

Yes, I do have Mythus Magick. When I was refering to complicated
cas^ng costs, I was referring to...for example in the book it said per
PD point done it also costs one extra point of heka. So you get the
base cost + the extras costs + point of damage total done...etc. It is
really complicated and I was just wondering if someone could explain it
beker than the book.

--------------------------------------------------------------Jason Bilbrey
jbilb682@uwsp.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 20:30:12 +0200
Subject: Weapons and Coins

Someone asked if this: Gold: sheckel Electrum: semirel Silver: talent
Copper: obol Bronze: mina had any Historical basses. I don't know, but, as
you probobly know, a Sheckel is used today too (although it is VERY
dierent compared to the biblical Sheckel, which was worth at least
100$, so do your math). The rest of the names are meaningless to me, but
they sound Arabic; I could ask, if you'd like.
Now, I'm about to re-open a discussion that I think everyone has had
enough of: ROF and Missile Weapons. However, I do this since someone
asked the ul^mate quesôn, the one that got someone in a mess in Wies &
Hickman's DEATH GATE:
W H Y ? ? ?
Why should the STEEP not aect the ROF of device weapons? A persona
should become skilled with re-loading it! And why aren't bows in the
catagory of device-propelled (note the Y under T on the table).
Oh yes:
What is Yarth?
Thanks,
Akiva Esterson
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 15:32:36 EDT

Subject: Spell

>>Yes, I do have Mythus Magick. When I was refering to complicated
cas^ng costs, I was referring to...for example in the book it said per
PD point done it also costs one extra point of heka. So you get the
base cost + the extras costs + point of damage total done...etc. It is
really complicated and I was just wondering if someone could explain it
beker than the book.<<

well, before it seemed as if you were asking for help on cas^ngs in
general, but now it seems as though you need help with a specic cas^ng
(or 2). Which one? and what's the quesôn.

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 15:29:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Weapons and Coins

> What is Yarth?

In DJ terms, the original name of the world AErth was Yarth. GDW had it
changed because Steve Jackson Games had a fantasy world named Yrth, and
they felt it was too similar. (No lawsuit, just a polite query).

The confusion has come because Gord the Rogue, at the end of his series,
was transfered from the destroyed Oerth to a world named Yarth, which had
the various naôns Roger noted, and had Gord as a Cat Lord, Leda as Queen
of Shadow, and Gellor as the Demiurge. (I also felt that Gelthoth , whose
listed as the Archimage of that realm, might have been a name change).

Furthermore, Yarth is /also/ the name of another parallel that Gygax did
with Flint Dille back in the early to mid 80's, as explained in the
previous missive.

Thus, the possible confusion.

But as he said best: "There can be a billion blasted Yarths!"
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 16:15:35 -0500

Subject: Epic of aerth history

hello all

I am working on a chronological table of the history of Aerth, lis^ng
out everything from the Epic of Aerth. I'll post it when I am done. One
quesôn for you all:
Those of you lucky enough to have Mythic masters copies: was there
anything in those as regards the history of Aerth, anything lis^ng
dates? If there was, I'd be grateful if you could let me know what there was.
thanks.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 18:45:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Epic of aerth history

At 04:15 PM 10/13/96 -0500, you wrote:
>hello all
>
>I am working on a chronological table of the history of Aerth, lis^ng
>out everything from the Epic of Aerth. I'll post it when I am done. One
>quesôn for you all:
>Those of you lucky enough to have Mythic masters copies: was there
>anything in those as regards the history of Aerth, anything lis^ng
>dates? If there was, I'd be grateful if you could let me know what there was.
>thanks.

Very likle. There was a revised version of Turkistan in issue #4--geing
the culture right. There was a war listed in issue #6, but I don't think a
specic date was given--it was meant to be hypothe^cal. No major
background revealed.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 07:00:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Spell

>>well, before it seemed as if you were asking for help on cas^ngs in
>>general, but now it seems as though you need help with a specic cas^ng
>>(or 2). Which one? and what's the quesôn.
>>
>>Chris
Well, I specically need help with combat(damage causing spells). So
>its kinda a general specic need.

--------------------------------------------------------------Jason Bilbrey
jbilb682@uwsp.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------->
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 08:47:41 EDT
Subject: Re: Spell

Ok, lemme see what I can do for you, since I haven't heard any of the
lists other 248 members respond to this one................

>Well, I specically need help with combat(damage causing spells).<

Star^ng with the Genearal dweomercraver Cas^ngs list.........
Forcedart Charm (grade II) costs a total of 35 Heka and does
2D6+(steep/10) PD.

Heka Darts Charm (Grade III) costs (50 + 10 per dart) Heka. You create 1
dart for every 10 steep. Each Dart does 1D6+2 Piercing PD.

Wound, Mental Charm: I'll let someone else handle this one as I don't
use the same rules the book does for forging links, etc.,

Heka Bolt Charm: (100+10 per extra D6 damage) Heka. Up to 50 more heka
points (& 5d6) may be invested in this one for a total damage of 10d6.

Those are a few, hope it helped.

(The above was wriken solely for the aid and understanding of another,
and was not intended to be wriken for prot, but simply to provide
support for a product whose owners won't)

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:00:08 EDT
Subject: TSR WEB PAGE?

quesôn:

did Sean Reynolds ever respond to anyone who replied to his what "would
you like to see on the TSR web page" querry?

Wondering.
Chris

PING!
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:35:36 -0500
Subject: chronology quesôns & jews on Aerth

Okay, I am almost done with the chronological table for the history of
the Epic of Aerth. I am including all refrences in all the published
material, however I dont have the Setne books, so I ask again, if anyone
has them, please let me know if there is any historical material in there
(and if youd be intrested in selling the ;^) )
I am going to post the list culled from the published material and then I
am going to work on the list myself, weaving in history and myth.
Appearently, Aerths stream followed our own and most historical events
are applicable by subtrac^ng 1000. The Babylonian period of Aegypân
dominaôn is exactly 1000 years before the persian of Earth as is the
greek. The problem is, the greek dominaôn by alexander occurs 200 years
aver the romans have taken over greece! I guess what I am asking is does
anyone have any experience doing this or any suggesôn on how to
integrate history into the Aerth history.
One more thing. A while back we were talking about the Jews in Aerth. I
have a suggesôn. Culling over the Epic book, I camer across this:
"In the trackless heartland of the land (Nejd) dwell cerân people known
as the Ankhubi who are thought to number some 50,000. From there name it
is supposed that they are of Aegypân descent or religion. These hunters
and raiders are considered outlaws and worthy of death by others of the state."
So heres what I am thinking - when Moses lead the the jews out of Aegypt,
they went to Philis^nia. Problem is, the Phoencians are there and they
are supported by the Aegypâns in Aerth, so the jews had to turn south
into the desert. If I am way o on my jewish history, my apologies. The
Ankhubi could also be the bedouin, who I think are in that area today.
But the bedioun have no link to Aegypt, whereas the jews do because of
their bondage in that land.
just an idea
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:31:06 +1000
From: Brian <bbalch@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Newbie

Hello folks!
Just an introducôn from a new member who also represents ve very keen DJ
players. Just to let you know DJ is unalive and well in another con^nent
ie OZ (or is it Magmur?). Good to see the Kiwis too.

I had the great idea of reading all the logs so I would'nt ask any dumb
quesôns. Sheesh!! you blokes can sure talk, it took me 5 months to get
through. It wouldnt have been so long except I kept having to stop and
collate all the great Ideas you all come up with. It was menôned by one
member that the game should return from unmortal state so we could get some
quality work. Well as far as I'm concerned the list has all the quality I
need. Keep up the good work.:-)

I have taken the great Mr Gygax at his word and I've tweaked the rules so
look forward to some half baked ideas from this area such as;

Parrying:
I dont like how weapons of great mass can be parried by weapons of not so
great mass the same chance of damage. Therefore I came up with the
following house rule.

Basically I wanted a "MASS FACTOR" ra^ng for all weapons and without going
to the trouble of calcula^ng it for the plethora of weaponry I thought that
speed factor is preky much a ra^ng of mass.

From there I made the rule that when parrying you compare each weapons base
speed factors and for each factor of 2 (round down) you increase the DR for
damage roll on the on the weapon with the lower number by one.

Example
Your "Soldier of Fortune" (Scumbag Mercinary) is akacked by a cowardly,
lowlife
assasin (street urchin) armed with a rusty poor quality dagger (speed=2).
He parries the dagger succesfuly with his above average hevy broad sword
(speed=6).

Result 6 - 2 = 4 or two DR easier damage roll on the dagger

Therefore the dagger has a roll of 6% to damage the sword and the sword has
a roll of 30% (3x10%) to damage the dagger and most likely break it.

As yet need to work out parries on natural weapons ie slashing panther paws
or snapping Raptor jaws. My feelings on these are you don't parry these
only akack them.

What do you think????

Brian
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:30:59 -0400

Subject: Re: TSR WEB PAGE?

>did Sean Reynolds ever respond to anyone who replied to his what "would
>you like to see on the TSR web page" querry?

Most of what I got were suggesôns (which I added to the suggesôns list),
and so there was no need to reply.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:12:26 -0400
Subject: Some Mythus stu _is_ available!

OK, that stu I saw in the old Mail Order area is available for sale.
Below is are the items and the price they're selling for.

Copies Price Item
1 $26 Dangerous Journeys
5 $22 The Epic of Aerth
6 $14 Mythus Prime
1 $20 Necropolis

(There are _no_ copies of MMM there)

Since I will get these at a 50% discount, that is what I will sell them for,
plus shipping. I'll send them priority mail (2-3 days), which probably will
cost $3-4 for a single book.

If you are interested in these, please write to me directly and not to the
list (I am onl DIGEST mode). First come, rst served ... and to be fair,
please don't grab them all the copies all at once - I'd like to spread these
around).

Thanks.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:02:14 -0500
Subject: Aria-Mythus Conversion-> K/S Areas

By the way I have decided to call my ARIA-Mythus combinaôn
Mythus+.

In preparaôn for conver^ng character creaôn to ARIA style
I had to divide all of the Mythus Vocaôns into ARIA Talents,
Ap^tudes and Disciplines. My division is listed below:

Talents:
Mental:
Decepôn
Inuence
Percepôn (Mental)
Trade Language
Physical:
Combat, Hand to Hand, Non Lethal
Cultured Palate
Endurance
Handicravs/Handiwork
Percepôn (Physical)
Tolerance
Spiritual:
Charisma^cism
Magne^sm

Ap^tudes:
Mental:
Agriculture
Appraisal
Criminal Ac^viês, Mental
Current Events
Domes^c Arts & Sciences
Gambling
Games, Mental
Hypno^sm
Weapons, Military, All Other
Buisness Administraôn
Public Administraôn (can you beleive there are TWO of these skills?)
Physical:
Acroba^cs/Gymnas^cs
Boa^ng
Combat, Hand to Hand, Lethal
Combat, Hand Weapons
Combat, Hand Weapons, Missile
Criminal Ac^viês, Physical
Disguise
Seamanship
Clothwork
Arms & Armor
Construcôn
Construcôn, Naval
Construcôn, Transport
Drawing
Escape
Games, Physical
First Aid
Hun^ng/Tracking
Jack of All Trades
Leatherwork
Masonry
Travel
Swimming
Survival
Sports
Riding
Music
Spiritual:
Animal Handling
Impersonaôn
Jury Rigging
Yoga
Leadership
Sculpture
Streetwise
Thespianism
Pain^ng, Ar^s^c
Poetry
Wri^ng, Crea^ve

Disciplines
All others. (Rather than type out the en^re K/S list.)

Comments from those that are at all interested in this are welcomed
and encouraged.

Dan Williamson
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:15:31 -0500
Subject: Aria-Mythus Conversion -> Akributes

In Aria they have 16(?) dierent akributes, please dont ask me to
name them all, I can't. An HP gets to make up to 6 of these above
average and 2 below average, the rest are all average. Because my
concern is simply character creaôn, I decided to equate the 6
akributes you pay for with the 6 Categories of Mythus. So when
purchasing akributes I will have the player pay for each category
that they want over 45. 45 being the average, if they want more
IP (character creaôn points) they can choose a Category score of

less than 45.

Oh, Aria also has ranks 1 to 10 to dene akributes, 5 being
average.

So my conversion:

Rank Category
1 32
2 35
3 38
4 41
5 44
6 49
7 52
8 56
9 60
10 65

The player would then get to decide how the category is divided into
Cap, Spd and Pow. With the understanding that Cap must be higher than
Spd and Pow.

What do you think?

Dan Williamson
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:31:25 -0600
Subject: Re: chronology quesôns & jews on Aerth

CHello.

I agree. I have oven wondered since 1992 where the Hebrew people were. I
nally just wrote it o as one of those major dierences between Earth and
AErth.

By the by, were is that ref in Epic?

Anthony N. Emmel
(disguise of Lord Dalgard the Dark Mage)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:49:07 EDT
Subject: Re: Newbie

>>What do you think????

Brian<<

I like it,

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:10:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Some Mythus stu _is_ available!

Well...I'll take Necropolis. Where do I send the cash?

Wayne

"Anyone who don't wanna get killed...best clear on out the
back."...Clint Eastwood
Date: Tuesday, October 15, 1996 10:12AM


Copies Price Item
6 $14 Mythus Prime
1 $20 Necropolis


Since I will get these at a 50% discount, that is what I will sell them
for,
plus shipping. I'll send them priority mail (2-3 days), which probably
will

If you are interested in these, please write to me directly and not to
the
list (I am onl DIGEST mode). First come, rst served ... and to be
fair,
please don't grab them all the copies all at once - I'd like to spread
these
around).

Thanks.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:13:10 -0400

<< Ok, but if you look in the book it says con^nual and impact damage
types IGNORE armor. Wouldn't that be true in this case also??? >>

The rules are a bit vague, and some^mes contradictory on these issues.
However, Impact damage normally ignores all non-magickal armor, although
there are cases where full plate armor or some natural (supernatural) armors
can oset impact damage from large creatures. See the notes in the Besâry
for the various Warhorses and Hephalumps.

Fire damage is re damage, the armor should apply unless the cas^ng or
eect specically says it doesn't. However, it does stand to reason that a
persona taking 2d6 con^nuing re damage for an extended period of ^me will
eventually take damage from it regardless of armor coverage. Certain acid
akacks cause armor to take damage regardless of penetraôn. This may be
appropriate to con^nuing damage which I see as akin to Greek re, napalm,
etc.

Later.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:38:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Aria-Mythus Conversion-> K/S Areas

so where can I nd Aria rules?...

Bill

"Why for you put me in the cold cold ground?"
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:07:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Some Mythus stu _is_ available!


HEY EVERYONE!!! I've already been scolded for replying to Sean via
Mythus-L.

I'M SORRY!!! Please don't send me any more scoldings....I'll get
cranky.

Wayne Westphalen

*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Global Distribuôn Systems Supervisor
Radisson Hotels Worldwide
*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*


Copies Price Item
6 $14 Mythus Prime
1 $20 Necropolis


Since I will get these at a 50% discount, that is what I will sell them
for,
plus shipping. I'll send them priority mail (2-3 days), which probably
will

If you are interested in these, please write to me directly and not to
the
list (I am onl DIGEST mode). First come, rst served ... and to be
fair,
please don't grab them all the copies all at once - I'd like to spread
these
around).

Thanks.

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:09:04 -0400


<< If the IRPGA oers the same game systems that the RPGA does
and I oer them for free, then I am infringing(or hampering) their ability
to make money. The RPGA does collect membership dues, I do not. >>

If your events are going to be free and you don't collect membership dues,
where are the resources going to come from to make this work?

Tom Hammerschmidt
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:22:15 -0400
Subject: IRPGA

>>Subject: Re: The Independent Role Playing Gamers Associaôn(IRPGA)
>
>At 09:09 PM 10/15/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>In a message dated 96-10-09 02:59:06 EDT, you write:
>>
>><< If the IRPGA oers the same game systems that the RPGA does
>> and I oer them for free, then I am infringing(or hampering) their ability
>> to make money. The RPGA does collect membership dues, I do not. >>
>>
>>If your events are going to be free and you don't collect membership dues,
>>where are the resources going to come from to make this work?
>>
>>Tom Hammerschmidt
>>
>>Besides the small amounts directly out of my pocket(and I would willingly
>fund this all myself if I were able) I fully akend to have my likle
>donaôn jar(like the ^p jar you see at bars) present. Hopefully those who
>support the idea will drop in their change. Maybe those that thought the
>game they played in was great(and I hope they do) will drop in some change.
>Besides that once I have all the required permits etc. to put me in
>accordance with tax code etc. I will look into fund raising projects that
>are oered to non prot assocaôns like selling associaôn T-shirts,
>those chocolate bars we all sold in school etc. I will of course have to
>secure permission from the con organizers for this.
>
>Addiônally I hope that if the idea takes o that eventually the

>associaôn could collect fees from smaller gaming companies for
>demonstra^ng their products at convenôns that it would be more expensive
>for them to akend than to pay us a small fee and let us do it. However,
>this service will have to be oered for free at rst so that the company
>can track increased sales directly to the games being at the convenôns.
>This way the gaming companies are providing funds to an associaôn that is
>dedicated to the gamers. This idea is not rm but I am considering it.
>There would of course be a set fee so that one company would have no more
>inuence than any other. Because the associaôn is dedicated to diversity
>probably there would be only one game per company unless that company had
>two very dierent games and the associaôn had people and space to oer
>it. No maker how diverse the games were the oerings would be limited to two.
>
>If you have any other ideas for funding besides charging members I would
>love to hear them.
>
>
>
>Good Gaming,
>aikido@cris.com
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:16:17 -0400
Subject: Some Mythus stu is s^ll lev

This is just a reminder ... there are s^ll a few copies of some things
available. I will be picking these up on Thursday (they're only doing
this Thu and Fri, and I'm o at a convenôn on Fri), and so you need
to let me know by Thursday (10/17) morning if you'd like one. Aver this,
I have no idea where they'll go - they might even through them away (they
are geing rid of some old product to make room for a new oce).
And it's half of the listed price, plus shipping. I'm not making any money
o of this, I'm trying to help y'all out.

4 $14 Mythus Prime

As always, reply directly to me, please, and not to the list.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:14:54 -0500

Subject: Re: Aria-Mythus Conversion -> Prosely^zing :)

>
> so where can I nd Aria rules?...
>
> Bill
>
> "Why for you put me in the cold cold ground?"

Because you are dead, why else?

Seriously, the Aria rules are two truly massive books published by Last
Unicorn Games, Roleplaying and Worlds. The two of them are quite good
for general gaming ideas, Worlds especially so. I am trying to use the
interac^ve/narra^ve character creaôn process from Aria to create
Mythus characters. For several reasons: 1) I really like the Aria
character creaôn process, 2) I dislike the "pseudo-class based
character creaôn process in Mythus and 3) I dislike the Aria rules
mechanics and last 4) I like the Mythus rules mechanics even if the
akribute system leaves something to be desired.

The worst/most dicult part of the coversion is turning out to be
mapping the Aria skills list onto the Mythus skills list.

You can nd more out about Aria by subscribing to the aria mailing
list at ARIA-L@brownvm.brown.edu or wri^ng to Last Unicorn Games,
they are in Pennsylvania someplace or on AOL (monomyth@aol.com?) but
I dont know any of the exact addresses. The Aria books should be found
in most gaming stores by now.

I've been sending this stu here because a lot of the people on this
list are also on the Aria list.

Dan Williamson
Minion of Greg
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:45:52 -0600
Comments: Authen^cated sender is <seanw@www.autodrav.com>
From: Sean Weisensel <seanw@AUTODRAFT.COM>
Organizaôn: Autodrav, Inc.
Subject: Book 0, Mythus Prime book?

What's this about a Mythus Prime book (Book 0)?
Is this a seperate physical book or was someone just refering to the
beginning of Book 1?

I thought there were only 5 books published plus the JM screen.
How many Mythus publicaôns are there ?

Sean "Wiseguy" Weisensel
Regina, SK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:03:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Book 0, Mythus Prime book?

There are books 0-5

0 = Mythus Prime
1 = Mythus
2 = Mythus Magick
3 = Epic of Aerth
4 = Necropolis
5 = Besâry

If you look in book 1, there is a secôn called Mythus Prime. All they
did was take that part and put it in its own book.
--------------------------------------------------------------Jason Bilbrey
jbilb682@uwsp.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------
>--------->From: Sean Weisensel[SMTP:seanw@AUTODRAFT.COM]
>Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 1996 11:45AM
>To: Mul^ple recipients of list MYTHUS-L
>Subject: Book 0, Mythus Prime book?
>
>What's this about a Mythus Prime book (Book 0)?
>Is this a seperate physical book or was someone just refering to the
>beginning of Book 1?
>
>I thought there were only 5 books published plus the JM screen.
>How many Mythus publicaôns are there ?
>
>Sean "Wiseguy" Weisensel
>Regina, SK
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:14:29 EDT

Subject: Re: Book 0, Mythus Prime book?

OK Wiseguy,

There were 6 Books

Book 0: Mythus Prime (actually I think it was released close to last in
the series)
Book 1: Mythus rulebook
Book 2: Mythus Magick
Book 3: Epic of Aerth
Book 4: Necropolis
Book 5: Aerth Besâry
Journey's magazine, and the obscure Mythic Master's Magazine, (i've
never seen MMM, and wonder as to whether it really exists or not. The
few people who allegedly have copies of it are not interested in
providing others with copies of it---albeit rightly so, since it would
violate TSR's copyrights, and there are TSR people who lurk in the
shadows here..........8-)

This is all o the top of my head, of course.

My quesôn is: Is there another Mythus mailing list? Because the
amount of posts here lately has fallen and fallen and fal........

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:12:29 PDT
Subject: Re: Gary Gygax speaks yet again....

Just a note regarding one of Gary's comments, with hopes of further claricaôn:

>... Again, I wrote much
>of the former system and all of the laker, so I know. [And before anybody
>jumps on him, Gary does consider Dave Newton a co-writer, but it was more a
>back-or-forth revision and update process, by which Gary was nal writer
>and thus author--he was Alpha and Omega--JRT] Maybe you don't like to face
>that fact, but it is a fact. Yes, others contributed, but I was the
>creator and the one who made it work, and fairly well too, if I do say so.

While I cannot speak regarding AD&D, John has the spirit correct in his note.
Gary created the game, I worked with him to esh it out in a fashion similar
to artwork - He was the illustrator, I merely embellished and suggested.

There are a few things in the rst books that I like to take credit for, but
even so, they were done with Gary's guidance. Primarily the two scenarios,
averaged armor, and the brainstorming of many, many cas^ngs. If you see evidence
of symmetrical relaônships (example: armor values and criker movement), it was
probably my handiwork, as I ran numbers through spreadsheets ^l my mind was numb.

But let us not think that the work was my doing despite the many long hours of
work I put in. Gary was indeed the alpha and omega; he created the bones and smoothed
the esh.

Davesince I ran
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:23:06 -0400

At 12:12 PM 10/17/96 PDT, you wrote:
>Just a note regarding one of Gary's comments, with hopes of further
claricaôn:

>While I cannot speak regarding AD&D, John has the spirit correct in his note.
>Gary created the game, I worked with him to esh it out in a fashion similar
>to artwork - He was the illustrator, I merely embellished and suggested.

Just to clarify, I was in no way akemp^ng to de-emphasize Dave's
contribuôns, but rather was protec^ng Gary from any potenâl cri^cism
or accusaôns from nekers and the like. I based the statement on how
Gary meant it in the sentence, and looking at the crea^ve process he
described in MMM #4.

The only real fault Gary has is some^mes he doesn't communicate all his
ideas and opinions as eec^vely as he can. This isn't a aw in internal
logic or completeness, just in expressing it. With these Greydex
correcôn lekers, he's has^ly puing together responses, and may not
have the ^me to proof them. I knew, for instance, that his iniâl
wording of Unearthed Arcana as "not a ^the of it is from any other source
than me" would get some response, and he beker explained it in the second
missive.

That's the only reason I've added comments to that eect--too avoid
confusion. There's a lot of an^-Gygax sen^ment on the Internet, which I
try to counter. Some of it may be valid, but most seems based on poor
impression. "Gygax ripped o Arneson", "Gygax said only people who play
HIS way are ocial", "Gygax promised Greyhawk stu and was lazy and
didn't deliver", "Gary stole DJ from AD&D notes he had", "Gary is lying
when he said he didn't rip o Tolkien", "Gygax is sexist and homophobic",
et al ad nausium.

No wonder he stays o the 'net.

==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:27:50 +0200

John R. Troy wrote:
> That's the only reason I've added comments to that eect--too avoid
> confusion. There's a lot of an^-Gygax sen^ment on the Internet,
> which I try to counter. Some of it may be valid, but most seems based
> on poor impression. "Gygax ripped o Arneson", "Gygax said only
> people who play HIS way are ocial", "Gygax promised Greyhawk stu
> and was lazy and didn't deliver", "Gary stole DJ from AD&D notes he
> had", "Gary is lying when he said he didn't rip o Tolkien", "Gygax
> is sexist and homophobic", et al ad nausium.

WHO said that? I sure never saw people on this list wri^ng such things
- they rather go to the other extreme, puing Gygax in a shrine like a
God.
But sure enough, whoever is in the public (more or less), is under the
constant interpretaôn of many people, some of which cannot narrow down
their assessment to the actual work the person does, so Gary, don't mind
them!

Joerg
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:32:46 -0600

Chello.

I feel that there is a bad impression of Gary Gygax on the Net.
I personally feel that he's been treated wrong. As an aspiring author
myself, I feel that T$R is wrong when they feel that they can own
anyone's intellectual property. Legally, they can, but morally.....

Anthony N. Emmel
Deo Vindice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:38:37 -0400

>WHO said that? I sure never saw people on this list wri^ng such things

Never said it was this list. This comes from a lot of statements on the
newsgroups--I was picking random rumblings that I've seen and occasionally
akempted to counter.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 12:04:56 EDT
Subject: TEST

With 288 members,
is anyone pos^ng anything, and I'm just not geing it?
Or is everyone silent?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 12:41:18 -0400
Subject: Re: TEST

PCraev, Moonlight. Mists of Silence. It even penetrates phone lines.

:-)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 12:58:26 -0400
Subject: Re: TEST

>PCraev, Moonlight. Mists of Silence. It even penetrates phone lines.
>
Could be a truism. Both this list and the Greyhawk one have been silent.
Perhaps the Moore/Gygax conict caused freakish things to happen to the

Internet, much as what Greenwood hinted "when wizards bakle". Or gods.
Or game designers.

More seriously, there were reports of a major pipeline going down late last
week (Sprint), so there could be e-mails oa^ng about.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:21:48 -0400
From: "David K. Folger" <dfolger@KRAKEN.MVNET.WNEC.EDU>
Subject: Re: TEST
In-Reply-To: <19961022.115935.7334.2.KappaABZ@juno.com> from "Christopher R
Stainton" at Oct 22, 96 12:04:56 pm

> With 288 members,
> is anyone pos^ng anything, and I'm just not geing it?
> Or is everyone silent?

Well, I just subscribed a day or two ago.

I guess I'll throw something about the game in.. the iniâ^ve system (or
at least mine and my brother's interpretaôn of it) is the greatest and
most straight-forward one I've ever seen. And, unlike most mul^-genre
games, the combat system for Dangerous Journeys (par^cularly because of the
inâ^ve system) will work perfectly for any seing.

--David

"Think you can, or think you can't. Either way you'll be right."
-Henry Ford
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 12:38:00 -0500
Subject: Re: TEST

Well...I got your message...everything running ne, or so it appears.
I think perhaps everyone is just very very quiet.

Hey...did I ask if anyone wants the "condensed" Mythus-L 93 logles?
I've cut out all of the u and lev only the tasty bits. It's a damn
fountain of Mythus Goodness.

Wayne
-- -"And man don't wanna get killed...beker clear on out the back"...Clint
Eastwood

Subject: TEST

With 288 members,
is anyone pos^ng anything, and I'm just not geing it?
Or is everyone silent?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:40:54 -0400
Subject: Re: TEST
In-Reply-To: <3.0b36.32.19961022125822.00c03df8@pop.âc.net> from "John R.
Troy" at Oct 22, 96 12:58:26 pm

> Could be a truism. Both this list and the Greyhawk one have been silent.

There's a Greyhawk list? Could you please post how to subscribe?

-David

-Henry Ford
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:43:02 -0600
Subject: Re: TEST

Chello.

We are s^ll here..and lurking.

One resorce which people running an Aegypân-centered campaign is
KMT (as in Kemet, the god; KMT is the correct transliteraôn of his
name, sorta like JHVH). It is a quarterly journal of Egypân archaeology
(Egyptology?) which has outstanding pictures of ar^facts, history, maps
of tombs, ar^cles about grave contents, etc. There is also ample
adver^sing for Egypân replicas of ~stu~, some pricey, others reasonable
(part. if one wants "hands-on" props).

I too would be interested in the Greyhawk list.

Anthony N. Emmel
(AKA Snaebjorn Hroaldsson Hroaldssonar, Vitki and Gothi of Ullr)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 20:44:30 +0200
Subject: Logs (was: Re: TEST)

Westphalen, Wayne wrote:
>
> Hey...did I ask if anyone wants the "condensed" Mythus-L 93 logles?
> I've cut out all of the u and lev only the tasty bits. It's a
> damn fountain of Mythus Goodness.

Of course I do - send it to the list, if it's not too big. I surely am
not the only one interested in it.

Thanks,
Joerg
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:44:32 -0400
Subject: Re: TEST

At 01:40 PM 10/22/96 -0400, you wrote:
>> Could be a truism. Both this list and the Greyhawk one have been silent.
>
>There's a Greyhawk list? Could you please post how to subscribe?
>
I will when I have a clear view of doing it. It's not quite a listserv,
nor is it quite an operator-signup-system. Supposedly, a few people are
having trouble with subscribing.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:01:35 -0500

Subject: Re: Mythus for any Genre (was TEST)
In-Reply-To: <199610221721.NAA23001@kraken.mvnet.wnec.edu> from "David K.
Folger" at Oct 22, 96 01:21:48 pm

> > With 288 members,
> > is anyone pos^ng anything, and I'm just not geing it?
> > Or is everyone silent?
>
> Well, I just subscribed a day or two ago.
>
> I guess I'll throw something about the game in.. the iniâ^ve system (or
> at least mine and my brother's interpretaôn of it) is the greatest and
> most straight-forward one I've ever seen. And, unlike most mul^-genre
> games, the combat system for Dangerous Journeys (par^cularly because of the
> inâ^ve system) will work perfectly for any seing.
>

As I have stated in the past, I really like Dangerous Journeys, but I
would never use it for anything other than (up to medieval era) Fantasy.
Unless of course you like hurling huge amounts of six-sided dice.

Dan.
Minion of Greg.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 15:42:03 +0000
Subject: Re: Mythus for any Genre (was TEST)
In-Reply-To: <m0vFmIB-000AEyC@Uucp1.mcs.net>

On Tue, 22 Oct 1996, Dan Williamson wrote:

> > most straight-forward one I've ever seen. And, unlike most mul^-genre
> > games, the combat system for Dangerous Journeys (par^cularly because of the
> > inâ^ve system) will work perfectly for any seing.
>
> As I have stated in the past, I really like Dangerous Journeys, but I
> would never use it for anything other than (up to medieval era) Fantasy.
> Unless of course you like hurling huge amounts of six-sided dice.

I've said it before, and I'll likely say it again (par^cularly since
I've looked over the Unhallowed rearms rules): the damage system works
untranslated through most modern rearms. Recognize, however, that
certain, par^cularly devasta^ng, weapons get Exposure instead of Strike
Locaôn, and that there is very likle modern armor. All rearms would
do 'Firearms' damage rather than the Mythus types, and Mythus armor
(generally) wouldn't protect against it. 6D6 X 1D6 all of a sudden looks
preky damn strong.

And do the same for laser weapons, only maybe consider it 're'. From
experience, it works well, makes nasty weapons adequately threatening,
and also keeps just enough of a 'heroic' feel that people are less likely
to give up in sheer frustraôn.

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 18:16:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Logs (was: Re: TEST)

Yes...I would like to see the condensed stu...

Chainmail@aol.com

Thanks

Bill
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 18:03:25 -0400
Subject: Geing Mythus beker known

I just thought I would let everyone know that at
hkp://www.geociês.com/TimesSquare/2691/raterpg.html there is a web page
where one can rate RPGs. This list did not contain the Mythus game so I
voted for it so it would be included.(just today) There weren't very many
votes for any game. This could be an opportunity for us to spread the word
about Mythus. If it was the game with the most votes people might want to
try it out and start asking about the game.

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
aikido@cris.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 21:20:26 -0400
Subject: A new monster.

A new monster.

Zombie, White

Idenêr: Unalive being.
Habitat: AErth or Phaeree: Isolated Areas, non-consecrated Gravesites,
Subterranean AErth; Some Nether planes=20
Size: 1 x human-size
Number Appearing: 1 (rarely 1d6 serving a major MPG)
Walk: 120 yds/BT
Run: 360 yds/BT
Iniâ^ve Modiers: Human Standard
Usually a few, including

Combat, HTH, Lethal: 31 STEEP
Criminal Ac^viês, Physical (Sneaking, Hiding, and Ambushing, 31 STEEP)
Perhaps Combat, Hand Weapons, Missile Weapons, or Non-Lethal HTH, depending
on the circumstances, all at 21-31 STEEP

Joss Factors: Nil
Dodging/Avoidance: 1 ,20/32
Akrac^veness: 1 (Nasty)
Invulnerabiliês:
Cold
Disease
Poison
Electricity* (see quirk)
Suscep^biliês: =20
Holy Water (2d10/ounce)
Silver (Insinuaôn x2)
Average Armor Protecôn: =20
Quirks: Any electrical damage that gets through its armor is treated
as stunning damage

Akacks BAC Damage Type Base Bonus

Talons 57 Cuing 1D3 8
By Weapon Type 8

Powers: =20

Hyperaesthe^c Senses
Area of Eect: Zombie
Delivered by: N/A
Range: Zombie
Time: N/A
Duraôn: Always ac^ve
Frequency: At Will

Descripôn: White Zombies have several built-in senses. They have Dark
Sight which enables them to see in Darkness as if it were daylight.
Furthermore, they have an innate vibratory sense as detailed on Page 320 of
Mythus Magick, making them aware of invisible or extraplanar en^ês.
Finally, when merged with AErth, they have a limited clairvoyant capacity
allowing them to use their senses as if they were standing at their
"sinkpoint"

Meld into AErth
Area of Eect: Zombie
Delivered by: N/A
Range: Zombie
Time: Special
Duraôn: =20
Frequency: 1/day
Descripôn: By means of this power, a White Zombie can meld into sov
AErth. This AErth must be natural aerth, at a horizontal angle (at less
than a 45 degree angle) and must be of an overall consistency looser than
clay. (They can=92t meld into solid stone). This process takes 1BT, and th=
e
zombie slowly sinks and melds with the ground.

A White Zombie in this state is in a merged state, in short the physical
form is more-or-less shunted into an elemental pocket of non-dimensional
sort. The Zombie remains aware of the above realm, via it=92s vibartory
sense. The zombie can=92t be detected by parascopy, and general heka
detecôn will only reveal a faint diused aura around the ground, of
nega^ve preternatural variety if that can be detected, unless the cas^ng
is of the quality of true sight or similar potency.

A white zombie can expel itself in one of two ways. He can either surface
as slowly and as silently as they melded with it, at the same speed (1 BT).
This is the tac^c used when the Zombie wishes to track and stalk prey
that walks past its hiding place. Or, the zombie can expel himself
immediately within 1CT, "exploding" out of the ground in an sudden
displacement of ground, and leaping up to 1 Rod distant from his locaôn.
This will usually cause total surprise (Base chance is Zombies Ambush score
at a DR of Easy)

Feather Walking
Area of Eect: Self
Delivered by: N/A
Range: Self
Time: N/A
Duraôn: No Limit
Frequency: At Will

Descripôn: A White Zombie walks without actually touching the surface of
the ground, "skimming" it as it were. This power enables the white zombie
to walk without leaving any no^ceable trail or spoor, at least on the

ground. It enables the white zombie to move silently, making it a lot
harder to detect aurally (base DR to detect using that sense alone is
"Extreme"). =20

Addiônally, this power enables the white zombie to walk across less-dense
surfaces as if they were solid ground. Thus, the creature can walk astride
quicksand, water, mud, tar, etc., without geing stuck or sinking. The
power, however, is only conveyed by walking=97if a zombie is knocked prone,
he must then swim or otherwise traverse the terrain via normal means. Note
also that, unlike the power of the Yeth hound, this does not allow the
creature to traverse over empty air such as a canyon.

Sta^s^cal Detail:

Base Scheme (+/- 1D3 per ATTRIBUTE)
M: 72 (Cunning) P: 120 =09
MM: 34 MR: 38 PM: 62 PN: 58
MMCap: 12 MRCap: 16 PMCap: 26 PNCap: 24
MMPow: 12 MRPow: 12 PMPow: 20 PNPow: 18
MMSpd: 10 MRSpd: 10 PMSpd: 16 PNSpd: 16

Armor Scheme:

PIER CUT BLUNT FIRE CHEM STUN ELEC
Non * 6 8 8 4 16 **

Commentary & Descripôn: White Zombies are an enhanced form of Zombie. It
is believed the originated somewhere in Ancient Atlan^s, as servant
creaôns of a Supernatural Vampire. The creaôn of such a creature
involves draining a soulless corpse of all its blood, then alchemically
trea^ng its skin, bleaching it albino-like in the process and imbuing the
creature with nega^ve energy and nega^ve Heka.

A White Zombie has no spirit, but a form of cunning that surpasses that of
a typical zombie, being more in line with that of the Ultrazombie. A
Zombie of this nature has the ability to perceive creatures, and has been
given certain combat skills and a surpassingly high level of tac^cal
opôns, as well as stealth/tracking abiliês, limited speech skills, and
to follow certain key commands from their creator and authorized personnel.
Such true intelligence is limited=97they can=92t converse save for proscrib=
ed
programs and have no true psyche, but they can be very eec^ve in combat,
sen^nel duty, ambush and pursuit. During combat, they tend to growl,
snarl, and look very fearsome, akin to a ghoul, though this is also a
programmed condiôn.

Unlike the typical zombie, these move at the same rate as normal humans,
and can swim/run/climb or move in any other way a human can, at the normal
speed level. They are ^reless and can pursue prey indenitely.
Furthermore, they can use their powers enabling them to walk without
leaving a trail, making noise, or even walking along liquid surfaces. They
can also meld into ground, and do this to wait in ambush for prey.

A White Zombie=92s altered and dead form is immune to Cold, Disease, and
Poisons, like the typical zombie. Unlike the typical zombie, they are also
immune to electricity to a certain extent, the shock of such eects ac^ng
as stunning force only, and they are not damaged by salt. However, the
increased nega^ve power and unique chemical changes make the creature
suscep^ble to holy water, it disrupted them chemically similar to acid.
Silver weapons also do extra damage if they penetrate the creatures skin
and armor.

John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net =20
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 22:02:21 -0700
Subject: Re: Where are the Demi-humans?

To all:

I would like to repost an old quesôn for further discussion. I would
like to get an idea as to what most of you do about the demi-humans on
outer Aerth. The main book does not cover much about the demi-humans on
outer Aerth. However, the second beastary manuscript hints toward whole
populaôns of dierent races on outer Aerth? Any thoughts?

Wondering,
----------------------------------------------------------------------------Mike Wikek |"Democracy isn't just the best form of governUSF engineering student |ment; It's the only one even remotely worth a
wikek@suntan.eng.usf.edu|damn. Only democracy guarantees that people
|get what they deserve." --Zena Marley
---------------------------------------------------------------------------DISCLAIMER: All that I write is my own opinion, and my opinion may not
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:26:46 -0400
Subject: Re: A new monster.

Those White Zombies wouldn't happen to have dreadlocks and play really
loud music, would they?

Jesse
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:48:59 -0600
Subject: Re: A new monster (and Mental Combat)

The new monster is great! My thanks out to John R. Troy for his
construc^ve contribuôn to MYTHUS-L.

When reading it, something made me wonder a quesôn that I had encountered
long ago in a gaming session. I am hoping to either hear the "deni^ve"
answer that eludes me in the rules, or some general feedback from other
subscribers about how they handle it.

Precisely what can and cannot be akacked mentally (Wound, Mental, etc)?

All I know o the top of my head in the Mythus Book is the following:
"Mental combat involves the use of a Heka-engendered Power or Cas^ng
against a foe with substanâl Mental faciliês. (A normal plant, for
example, could not be mentally akacked -- although a Ghost or Demon could
be.)"

By picking the two extremes, it leaves me with a great deal of uncertainty
about what lies in between. What about the White Zombie? Other unliving?
How about animals with Cunning intelligence? I once had a Dweomercraever
want to use Wound, Mental on an alligator. What is the cut-o for
"substanâl Mental faciliês"?

Thanks to all for any help you can provide.

-Doug

Doug Noonan
Bozeman, MT
free@mcn.net
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:39:04 -0700
Subject: Re: A new monster (and Mental Combat)
X-To: Douglas Noonan <free@DNS.MCN.NET>
In-Reply-To: <v01510119ae936077aade@[205.163.40.52]>

On Tue, 22 Oct 1996, Douglas Noonan wrote:

>
> Precisely what can and cannot be akacked mentally (Wound, Mental, etc)?
>
From what I remember in the books, any creature can be akacked
mentally, if it has mental traits. A plant, usually has no mental
traits, and is there fore not able to be akacked.
The same thing works with spiritual akacks. Except if a creature has
no "spirit".
This even works for physical combat. If a creature has no physical
characteris^cs, how could it be akacked with a sword?

Of course, some creatures are immune to mental/spiritual/physical
akacks. Some are more suseptable to them... It is all explained in a
EP/OP/whatever's character bio.

That's my opinion,
Kevin
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 11:15:00 +0200
Subject: Mental Combat (was Re: A new monster)

Douglas Noonan wrote:
> Precisely what can and cannot be akacked mentally (Wound, Mental,
> etc)?

You said it right in your mail: anything that does have a M trait which
is NOT listed as 'Cunning' can be so akacked.

Joerg
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 10:18:49 EDT
Subject: Bakle of the Gods?

>>Could be a truism. Both this list and the Greyhawk one have been
silent.
Perhaps the Moore/Gygax conict caused freakish things to happen to the
Internet, much as what Greenwood hinted "when wizards bakle". Or gods.
Or game designers.<<

Kinda like Hercules going up against Zeus....I wonder who'd win?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 10:15:08 -0600

Chello.

I generally assume that there are enclaves scakered about, but that their
inuence on the Outer Realpoli^k is somewhat limited.

For instance, a tribe of elves (sorry, I always forget the DJ names) might
take up residence in a forest, protec^ng the ecology thereof from
encroachment by humans, harves^ng some of the lumber to sell (both
raw and "processed"), trapping a few animals, etc. If said elves were killed,
or lev, would it have much of an impact? I doubt it.

Also, a few individuals might rise to posiôns of inuence in some kingdoms,
but it would be advisory with likle actual power. I mean, they *aren't*
human averall, and have no ês to the landed nobility......

Just a few thoughts......

Anthony N. Emmel
Deo Vindice
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 10:46:51 +0000
In-Reply-To: <326DA6C4.EF6@suntan.eng.usf.edu>

On Tue, 22 Oct 1996, Mike Wikek wrote:

> I would like to repost an old quesôn for further discussion. I would
> like to get an idea as to what most of you do about the demi-humans on
> outer Aerth. The main book does not cover much about the demi-humans on
> outer Aerth. However, the second beastary manuscript hints toward whole
> populaôns of dierent races on outer Aerth? Any thoughts?

There was a brief note on this in the Mythus book, and our very own John
Troy wrote up an ar^cle which did not make it into Mythic Masters
Magazine regarding this very subject. It can be found at:

hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/besâry/ph-essay.html

My own thoughts are that there *would* be small populaôns here and
there, and perhaps even hidden naôns. Aver all, there is a great deal
about (for instance) Subterranean AErth we do not know. It would not be
unreasonable for any number of Goblin or Hobgoblin races to have anything
ranging from small observaôn posts through full-blown invasion forces
tucked away. The Seelie races might be willing to send advisors,
emmisaries, and observers to certain good kingdoms or fair-minded nobles
(and the Unseelie might do the inverse :-) ).

Gnomes, of course, would be heavily involved in trade *in some areas*,
and might even be a par^cularly notable merchant force. With their
notable leader and master trader, Zoorik, they would strike fear far and
wide (er, sorry 'bout that).

Phaeree is given short shriv in Epic of AErth because that gazekeer is
not about Phaeree at all, just about AErth. Given that the Phaeree
material was not completed and certainly not published, we are limited to
speculaôn as to what was intended.

Personally, I use Phaeree as an interlude, with their inuence not as
notable as some would, perhaps, desire. Goblins, Drow, Slaugh, and Eins
made for some impressive (and some^mes skilled) adversaries, ov hidden
in the shadows and manipula^ng events from behind the scenes.

I chose to forbid non-human HP's at the outset, simply because I had not
yet decided how I would integrate the two realms. That is a decision
best lev to the individual JMs.

My suggesôns, however, for people who would care to integrate Phaeree
more solidly would start something like this:

Amazon tribes in Amazonia (gee), other Vargaard/Amazonian Phaeree heavily
populated throughout the New World.

The Seelie Court would have representa^ves throughout Avillonia (for one
way of viewing this mixture, see the Amazing Engine supplement "For
Faerie, Queen, and Country", for another, see Edmund Spenser's "Faerie
Queene"), with gates to the Fey realm under every hill and behind many
trees. Goblins would haunt the night, Fir Darrigs would waylay
travellers, etc.

A few dragons, eeing Phaeree (or perhaps simply deciding to be larger
sh in a smaller pond), would have remote nests. Dryads would dwell in
most any forest, Nyads in many streams, Satyrs and Nymphs frolicing on
idyllic hills, etc.

I would drop some Eins in remote cave systems (i.e. in outlying areas;
the concentraôn of steel and iron in many large human seklements would
keep some Phaeree away), Sphynxes watching over the pyramids, Sirens
waylaying sailors, Harpies assailing those unfortunates traipsing over
Balkan mountains, etc.

Mythology and "other fantasy games" set out a good pakern for
incorpora^ng said creatures, some^mes even with some level of
reasonableness.

Have fun :-)

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 19:04:56 -0400
Subject: Mythus vo^ng/ra^ng site

Thanks to everyone for who took the ^me to rate Dangerous Journeys at

hkp://www.geociês.com/TimesSquare/2691/raterpg.html

So far Dangerous Journeys has 7 people who rated it to an average of 3.8

Ars Magica has 8 people ra^ng it to an average of 3.8

AD&D counts the most people ra^ng it 12 but only to an average of 1.5

I believe this could be an opportunity to help others, who check this web
page, learn about Dangerous Journeys Mythus. This would in turn help the
game con^nue to grow,especially if it had a lot of people who rated it
high. I presume most people on the list are fairly happy with the game.

Please take the ^me to enter your ra^ng.

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 08:11:41 +0100
From: Xu Xiaoyue <YINL%SBTV04@BTMV06.GOD.BEL.ALCATEL.BE>
Subject: Gree^ng

Hi everybody:
I'm a fan of RPG from China, I just join to here this morning and looking
for message of NEWEST RPG. will someone help me?
Xu.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 08:52:52 +0200
Subject: Re: A new monster.

Nice work on the White Zombie, John.

Thanks for pos^ng it.

Harold Stringer
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 11:45:03 -0500
Subject: Random Encounter Rolls

Since I have started running a game again, I actually have ideas to
post.

For traveling accross country I thought it might be a good idea to
use the Survival K/S Area to determine if there is a random event while
travelling. DR would be modied by the inherent diculty in travelling
through the terrain, rocky Mountains might be DR Dicult, while
farmlands might only be DR Easy. It would be modied by the number of
people in the group other K/S Areas like Nature Akunement or Travel.

A Special Failure would be par^cularly bad, while simple failure owuld
indicate a minor setback or diculty. I'm not sure what Special
Success would do for you (ideas?).

Setbacks that I've thought of:
a potenâlly hos^le encounter with wild animals
twisted ankle causes a delay
group becomes lost
equipment becomes damaged/lost
disease
food spoils
encounter with monsters or hos^le social groups (bandits)

What do you think?
Is there some rule covering this in the DJ book that I'm missing?
Dan Williamson
Minion of Greg
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 12:28:05 -0600

Subject: Re: Random Encounter Rolls

Chello.

Not that I'm aware of, but let me say that you are evil! I love it!!!
Thanks for the ideas!

Anthony N. Emmel
Deo Vindice
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 15:13:02 +0000

You dinatley have a great idea. I will begin to use it
immediatley.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 15:48:28 -0700
Subject: Re: Bakle of the Gods?

Christopher R Stainton wrote:

> Kinda like Hercules going up against Zeus....I wonder who'd win?

Well, if Hercules was a AD&D PC, he would. :)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 16:45:08 -0700


Dan Williamson wrote:
>
> Setbacks that I've thought of:
> a potenâlly hos^le encounter with wild animals
> twisted ankle causes a delay
> group becomes lost
> equipment becomes damaged/lost
> disease
> food spoils
> encounter with monsters or hos^le social groups (bandits)

Dan,
Good start on a list of random events, but you may want to drop the
"random" from your events. Be proac^ve. Whether you are running a
lengthy adventure or one encounter senerio, you make the dicision what
unforeseen events happen to your players. Events produced by design
rather than by a die throw will be as nasty or easy as you want. This
type of control gives you the big boot to use on characters as needed,
or possable "red herrings." I found in my 16 years of gaming that
non-random events or creatures mo^vate players to act, and some^mes in
the direcôn I want the to go.

Hardcore Roleplaying
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 01:22:41 EDT
Subject: Re: Bakle of the Gods?

>> Kinda like Hercules going up against Zeus....I wonder who'd win?

>Well, if Hercules was a AD&D PC, he would. :)<

Yeah, nut if it were a more "realis^c" system like.....let's
say....Mythus, Zeus'd win. 8-)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 09:17:47 -0500

In-Reply-To: <326FFF84.51B1@suntan.eng.usf.edu> from "Mike Wikek" at Oct 24,
96 04:45:08 pm

Mike Wikek spake thusly:
> Good start on a list of random events, but you may want to drop the
> "random" from your events. Be proac^ve. Whether you are running a
> lengthy adventure or one encounter senerio, you make the dicision what
> unforeseen events happen to your players. Events produced by design
> rather than by a die throw will be as nasty or easy as you want. This
> type of control gives you the big boot to use on characters as needed,
> or possable "red herrings." I found in my 16 years of gaming that
> non-random events or creatures mo^vate players to act, and some^mes in
> the direcôn I want the to go.

That's kind of what I've been doing. My list of random events is more of
a list used to jog the memory and is usually tailored for the adventure
at hand. So its really not random random its more directed random. I
will come up with a list of events that would be appropriate and interes^ng
and then, when the ^me come choose from the list.

Dan
Minion of Greg
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:48:42 -0600
Subject: Idiot of the week...

I nominate myself for idiot of the week. I'm going to be pos^ng some
very detailed accounts of this past weekends Mythus game. It went
preky badly. I'm the very inexperienced JM trying to handle these
rules which seem overwhelming. I know that I must be doing something
wrong because combat which takes 2 minutes or less of actual game ^me
takes something like 2-3 hours of real ^me. There are so many
modiers I'm never sure which ones to use and how to use them... In my
next leker I'll post exactly how I handled the likle adventure the
other day.

Just as a side note, is there anyone that lives near CENTRAL WISCONSIN.
I would really really really like to have an experienced JM come to
Stevens Point, WI to show how they run a game as a JM so that I can see
how smoothly it should be running and what exactly they do. (Especially
in combat)

--------------------------------------------------------------Jason Bilbrey
jbilb682@uwsp.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:54:01 -0600
Subject: Spellsongs

One of my players asked a quesôn this weekend. During the cas^ng of
a spellsong a caster may be interrupted just like a normal spell, BUT
aver the iniâl cas^ng ^me, do the eects last as long as the HP
keeps singing? What would interrupt the HP and cause the spell to end,
etc.

Along those same lines, in the JM Screen it says things like -30% if
caster is under damaging akack. Are spells canceled once hit, or are
they just severely penalized, and does the penalty only take place if
they actually take damage or does it also happen when their armor gets
hit, but absorbs all damage?

--------------------------------------------------------------Jason Bilbrey
jbilb682@uwsp.edu
Pager #: (715) 576-5419
--------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:57:27 -0600
Subject: Bakle Example One:

Here is an account of the rst bakle we encountered:

Room Map:
___________
| : | Key:
| D | _ & | = Wall
| : | : = Jailcell Bars
|::::::::: | XXX = Wooden Desk
| | D = Door (locked)
| XXX |
|___________D

Ok, the HPs (3 of them) started in the jail with no possesions. There
was an Orc(page 322 of Book 1) siing at the desk snoring loudly. One
HP is a prima^ve warrior(called Steve) One HP is a Priestess(called
Robyn). The other is a elemental dweomercraever(called John). The HPs
decide to try and open the lock. Steve begins by cas^ng a spellsong
called Drowsiness Lullaby Spell(page 268 Mythus Magick). Since the Orc
is already asleep this is easy to cast. (quesôn: do the other HPs in
the group get aected by this?) Meanwhile John the elemental
dweomercraever casts a spell called Lock-Open Charm(page 35 Mythus
Magick) to unlock the jailcell door. He is successful and the lock
opens. The HPs leave the cell and pick up their belongings which were
in the far corner. They all put them on. Steve then goes behind the
Orc and engages in HTH(non-lethal combat with the Orc).

Descripôn of the HTH(NL) combat:
---------------------------------a) Steve gets iniâ^ve since the Orc is sleeping
b)
(1) his BAC is 45+6=51(just his steep + bonus) since he is
akemping to overpower
(2) the Orcs PR is 42(PM + .5 of 0 steep)

Now some quesôns start...in akacking to overpower do we have a K/S vs
K/S bakle to determine hit? I thought we should so Steve and the Orc
did, Steve won since the Orc was sleeping. When I look in the book on
page 222(book 1) it has another chart talking about weight dierences.
Does this mean that aver a hit has been made that the akack to
overpower s^ll doesn't suceed unless Steve rolls again and succeeds on
this chart also? The orcs weight is es^mated at 150 and Steves at 250.
Does that mean aver the K/S vs K/S bakle Steve now has to make an
easy DR roll against his steep in HTH(NL)?

As a side note, is the Orc s^ll considered sleeping from the Lullabye
spell cast before? (I'm used to playing AD&D) Does the Orc get some
kind of "saving throw" to see if the spell didn't aect him? It seems
that there must be some kind of saving throw otherwise this low level
spell could put a dragon or other large creature to sleep...

...to be con^nued...

Please let me know EVERYTHING that I did wrong or right. I would like
detailed descripôns in possible. Thanks guys and girls!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------Jason Bilbrey
jbilb682@uwsp.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 20:42:43 +0100

Reply-To: gbabini@linknet.it
From: Dfron <gbabini@LINKNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Spellsongs

Bilbrey, Jason E wrote:

> Along those same lines, in the JM Screen it says things like -30% if
> caster is under damaging akack. Are spells canceled once hit, or are
> they just severely penalized, and does the penalty only take place if
> they actually take damage or does it also happen when their armor gets
> hit, but absorbs all damage?

I'm working exactly on those modiers in these days. There are many
incongruences in those tables:

1. on M2 page 26 the STEEP Adj table list a -30% for being under
damaging akacks, while on M1 pages 216-217 says "..charms are the most
dicult to counter, for the target must have a beker iniâ^ve and
be able to akack the caster before ac^vaôn complete..". So it seems
that a chance to physically interrupt a cas^ng really exists.

2. IMHO the 30% penalty may be used WHEN A CASTER IS UNDER A CONTINUING,
NON OVERHELMING DAMAGE FORM. A DIRECT P/M/S BLOW STILL DISRUPT THE
CASTING.
(The quesôn is, what's "overhelming" and what is not? My answer is:
a mental, physical, or spiritual damage under the target'MRCap, PNCap,
or SPCap per CT.)

3. If the armor absorbs all damage, i think the caster should retain the
cas^ng.

4. Finally, about iniâ^ve, a Charm or Eyebite may only be disrupted
if the caster is hit before his init point, for other cas^ngs
iniâ^ve is irrelevant.

5. My house rule for cas^ng ^mes is: an Eyebite start eect at the
init point rolled by the caster, a Charm starts at the very end of the
CT in which it was cast, so these two types are managed within a single
CT. Any opinion ?

Dfron
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:27:30 -0600
Subject: On crea^ng a new HP...

If a player decides to make their HP about 50 yrs old they get 72 more
points of steep to spend. (12 cuz they are not from a primi^ve
vocaôn). Is there a limit to how many they can put in a specic
area? Or could they put them all in something like Combat, Hand
Weapons...thus giving them something like a 100 Steep. This
seems...unfair... They would now be able to hit 98% of the ^me. Wow!
How do you guys handle things like this?
--------------------------------------------------------------Jason Bilbrey
jbilb682@uwsp.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:41:26 -0600
From: Malcolm Hays <mhays@UMR.EDU>
Subject: Re: On crea^ng a new HP...
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=uwsp%l=EMS2-961028212730Z-905@ems2.uwsp.edu> from
"Bilbrey, Jason E" at Oct 28, 96 03:27:30 pm

>
> If a player decides to make their HP about 50 yrs old they get 72 more
> points of steep to spend. (12 cuz they are not from a primi^ve
> vocaôn). Is there a limit to how many they can put in a specic
> area? Or could they put them all in something like Combat, Hand
> Weapons...thus giving them something like a 100 Steep. This
> seems...unfair... They would now be able to hit 98% of the ^me. Wow!
> How do you guys handle things like this?
> --------------------------------------------------------------> Jason Bilbrey
> jbilb682@uwsp.edu
> "Failure is not in falling, but in refusing to get back up..."
> -------------------------------------------------------------->
According to the original game rules as published in Mythus, an HP can
assign no more than 10 points of age STEEP to any one K/S Area and no age
STEEP can be added to a Heka producing K/S Area.

I hope this answers your quesôn.

Malcolm H.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 16:02:24 -0600

I looked as hard as I could on page 104 and 105 of book 1 and could NOT
nd it printed anywhere that a player can only apply 10 steep/skill.
It does say that you can't apply them to the heka producing areas, but
it doesn't have any limitaôn on how much can be added. It states you
can subtract as much as you want, but doesn't specically say you can
only add 10 steep. WHERE did you nd this...?
--------------------------------------------------------------Jason Bilbrey
jbilb682@uwsp.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------
>--------->From: Malcolm Hays[SMTP:mhays@UMR.EDU]
>Sent: Monday, October 28, 1996 3:41PM
>Subject: Re: On crea^ng a new HP...
>
>>
>> If a player decides to make their HP about 50 yrs old they get 72 more
>> points of steep to spend. (12 cuz they are not from a primi^ve
>> vocaôn). Is there a limit to how many they can put in a specic
>> area? Or could they put them all in something like Combat, Hand
>> Weapons...thus giving them something like a 100 Steep. This
>> seems...unfair... They would now be able to hit 98% of the ^me. Wow!
>> How do you guys handle things like this?
>> -------------------------------------------------------------->> Jason Bilbrey
>> jbilb682@uwsp.edu
>> "Failure is not in falling, but in refusing to get back up..."
>> -------------------------------------------------------------->>
>According to the original game rules as published in Mythus, an HP can
>assign no more than 10 points of age STEEP to any one K/S Area and no age
>STEEP can be added to a Heka producing K/S Area.
>
>I hope this answers your quesôn.
>
>
> Malcolm H.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 19:43:08 -0500

> If a player decides to make their HP about 50 yrs old they get 72 more
> points of steep to spend. (12 cuz they are not from a primi^ve
> vocaôn). Is there a limit to how many they can put in a specic
> area? Or could they put them all in something like Combat, Hand
> Weapons...thus giving them something like a 100 Steep. This
> seems...unfair... They would now be able to hit 98% of the ^me. Wow!
> How do you guys handle things like this?

There is some limitaôn. I don't know the exact pages of the rules (my
brother actually knows the game much beker than I do), and I don't have my
books with me, but any skill is limited to its related TRAIT. So, combat,
Hand Weapons, is limited to the HPs physical TRAIT.. which tends not to be
all that great at 50 years of age. S^ll, that's a lot of Steep, but my
brother and I agree that if you really want to go for power, play a young
HP--they work best in the long run. The old age will catch up with you if
you play an oldie.
As far as Mentals and Spirituals, most of the really powerful/destruc^ve
skills are heka-genera^ng, and the player is not allowed to put steep bonus
into Heka-Genera^ng skills.
Now, if an HP went all physical and played a civilized 50-year old, the
physical wouldn't be that great. Assuming the player gets more or less
typical dice rolls, and assuming you use the 3-akribute bonus, on average,
the physical would be less than 110 before modiers. Throw in the aging
modiers, and you'll probably nd the total physical to be less than 100.
Once again, an 85 Steep is s^ll preky deadly and cheesy, but in doing
that, you'll have an HP who has denite weakenesses in other places. Mental
and/or spiritual combat will take a heavly toll on the HP, oh.. and a nice
cas^ng that handles any grossly physical HP is the reverse akack charm.
Grade IV general Dweomercraever cas^ng. It can be found in the core Mythus
book. At that skill level, no HP wants to get hit with his or her own
damage.

--David

-Henry Ford
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:15:57 +0200
Subject: Re: Spellsongs
"Bilbrey, Jason E" at Oct 28, 96 09:54:01 am

>
> One of my players asked a quesôn this weekend. During the cas^ng of
> a spellsong a caster may be interrupted just like a normal spell, BUT
> aver the iniâl cas^ng ^me, do the eects last as long as the HP
> keeps singing? What would interrupt the HP and cause the spell to end,
> etc.

IIRC, in the descripôn of each spellsong, it says, whether it
needs to be maintained by singing or not. If spellsong must be maintained,
then anything, which interrupts singing will interrupt spell. (Ie. you can
interrupt singing by tossing singer over, his concentraôn and song will
be ruined...) I think intrerrupted songs just ends, but during cas^ng,
I'd rather use -10 modier to Diculty-modied skill for each
distracôn. (Of cource, if someone prevents your singing, spell is
automa^c failure).

>
> Along those same lines, in the JM Screen it says things like -30% if
> caster is under damaging akack. Are spells canceled once hit, or are
> they just severely penalized, and does the penalty only take place if
> they actually take damage or does it also happen when their armor gets
> hit, but absorbs all damage?
>

Hmm. I hadn't browsed through that book, but it seem reasonable. Ie. Each
damaging akack will cause -30 modier to DR-modied skill. You may
choose to cancel your spell to prevent some _ugly_ backres. (That -30
modier is quite bad, especially if your K/S Steep is reduced...)

Kautsu

-------------------------------------------------------------------------Ani Kauâinen Student of computer science at University of Turku
Pyydysmaenê 19
20660 LITTOINEN
FINLAND
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 09:38:00 -0600

Sorry about that. I was quo^ng from our own House Rules. We've used
them so long they are second nature. However, a 10 point limitaôn
seems to work very well. When we rst started playing DJ, I made a
Merchant Vocaôn who was about 60 years old. I added the resul^ng Age
STEEP to his Toxicology K/S Area, thus giving him a 96 in Toxicology.
Hence we decided to limit the Age bonus. If a player has a par^cular
concept in mind, then the bonus can be modied. For new K/S Areas
generated through Age STEEP, then maybe 20 points might be applicable.

I hope this is a suitable guideline for your campaign.

M. Hays
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 20:17:50 +0200
Subject: Cost of Armor repears.

How much do you charge (average) for xing armor (per hit scored against
it), and how much ^me should this take with a single person doing so?

Thanks,
Akiva Esterson
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:01:14 +0000
Subject: Re: Idiot of the week...

Yes I live in a small town called Brook Park Mn. It is right on the
Minnesota-Wisconsin border. If you email me your phone number, maybe
I could get over there. I have a regular game that I run every
Friday. Maybe we could get together and run something.

Randy
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:07:25 -0600

That would be _really_ great... My phone number is (715) 344-4496...
Feel free to call me, I probably won't be around, but leave a message...
Thanks Randy!
--------------------------------------------------------------Jason Bilbrey
jbilb682@uwsp.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------
>--------->From: Randy Sivigny[SMTP:jbol^k@HOMEBREW.PINENET.COM]
>Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 1996 8:01AM
>Subject: Re: Idiot of the week...

>
>Yes I live in a small town called Brook Park Mn. It is right on the
>Minnesota-Wisconsin border. If you email me your phone number, maybe
>I could get over there. I have a regular game that I run every
>Friday. Maybe we could get together and run something.
>
>Randy
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 17:24:49 -0500
From: Ray Dion <rayd@GLEN-NET.CA>

>
> That would be _really_ great... My phone number is (715) 344-4496...
> Feel free to call me, I probably won't be around, but leave a message...
> Thanks Randy!
> --------------------------------------------------------------> Jason Bilbrey
> jbilb682@uwsp.edu
> "Failure is not in falling, but in refusing to get back up..."
> --------------------------------------------------------------
Gack!! I hope you don't mind having over 200 people suddenly know your
home phone number, you may want to conduct this kind of coversaôn
directly, rather than through the list.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 07:44:35 -0600

Yeah, I accidentally pressed reply too fast before I realized it was
going to the whole
list. I don't mind them having my phone number, I'm just sorry it
wasted the conferences bandwith. Sorry!
--------------------------------------------------------------Jason Bilbrey
jbilb682@uwsp.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------
>--------->From: Ray Dion[SMTP:rayd@GLEN-NET.CA]
>Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 1996 4:24PM

>Subject: Re: Idiot of the week...
>
>Bilbrey, Jason E wrote:
>>
>> That would be _really_ great... My phone number is (715) xxx-xxxx...
>> Feel free to call me, I probably won't be around, but leave a message...
>> Thanks Randy!
>> -------------------------------------------------------------->> Jason Bilbrey
>> jbilb682@uwsp.edu
>> "Failure is not in falling, but in refusing to get back up..."
>> -------------------------------------------------------------->
>Gack!! I hope you don't mind having over 200 people suddenly know your
>home phone number, you may want to conduct this kind of coversaôn
>directly, rather than through the list.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 19:40:57 -0800

>
> I'm the very inexperienced JM trying to handle these
> rules which seem overwhelming.

Jason,
G. Gygax made the system modular. If you are having a problems with
some of the rules, remove them from your game. On that thought, try
MYTHUS PRIME(MP). MP does have holes in it, but it is quick and easy. I
too am in the process of going through the advanced rules and decideing
what I want to keep and throw away.

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:48:03 -0500

From: Milagros C Gonzalez <Milagros.C.Gonzalez@STUDENTS.MIAMI.EDU>
Subject: Mythus products

Can anyone tell me if GDW ever published any other Dangerous Journeys
products besides Mythus, or any Mythus stu aver Mythus Prime?

Oko.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:00:11 -0800
Subject: Re: Mythus products
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9610312330.A2310-0100000@email.ir.miami.edu>

>Can anyone tell me if GDW ever published any other Dangerous Journeys
>products besides Mythus, or any Mythus stu aver Mythus Prime?
>
>Oko.

Not that I ever saw. I sure would have liked to take a look at Unhallowed.
Hey, I would be happy to play test it, if someone e-mailed me a copy...

John
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:50:25 -0500

<< According to the original game rules as published in Mythus, an HP can
assign no more than 10 points of age STEEP to any one K/S Area and no age
STEEP can be added to a Heka producing K/S Area.

I hope this answers your quesôn.

Malcolm H. >>

This is indeed as it is wriken. Which is really lame IMHO. An older
(presumably wiser as STrait increases) Mage or Priest can't increase their
primary K/Ss?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:00:06 -0600

Where does it say the part about ONLY 10 steep? I KNOW it says you
can't apply the extra steep to Heka-genera^ng areas, but I could nd
no secôn that says you can only add 10 steep. The only thing I found
was something saying that you could remove as much steep from any single
area if you had to lessen your iniâl steep.
--------------------------------------------------------------Jason Bilbrey
jbilb682@uwsp.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:43:55 EST

>Can anyone tell me if GDW ever published any other Dangerous Journeys
>products besides Mythus, or any Mythus stu aver Mythus Prime?
>Oko.

Hey I've got a quesôn, wasn't one of the goals for the creaôn of this
mailing list to create a FAQ for Mythus?
I believe I read that on one of the rst Posts way back
when......................

It seems this quesôn is asked more oven than any other.......
Mythus
Mythus MAgic
Epic of Aerth
Aerth Besâry
Necropolis
Mythus Prime

I think Prime was the last thing released (i dunno for sure--a FAQ syre
would help!).................................

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 15:32:17 +0000

On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Richard Crook wrote:

> << According to the original game rules as published in Mythus, an HP can
> assign no more than 10 points of age STEEP to any one K/S Area and no age
> STEEP can be added to a Heka producing K/S Area.
>
> Malcolm H. >>
>
> This is indeed as it is wriken. Which is really lame IMHO. An older
> (presumably wiser as STrait increases) Mage or Priest can't increase their
> primary K/Ss?

(Not that I have much to do with *ocial* rules or anything...)

The one player I had who generally played aged HPs (Hi Ryan! <wave>)
applied the bonuses to Heka-genera^ng K/S Areas (I think). I wouldn't
have balked in the slightest, just 'cause I don't agree with the
restricôn.

But I'm preky exible as a JM, and I recognize that the intent behind
the books was to be encyclopedic rather than cursory.

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 20:03:20 -0500

>>Can anyone tell me if GDW ever published any other Dangerous Journeys
>>products besides Mythus, or any Mythus stu aver Mythus Prime?
>>Oko.
>
>Hey I've got a quesôn, wasn't one of the goals for the creaôn of this
>mailing list to create a FAQ for Mythus?
>I believe I read that on one of the rst Posts way back
>when......................
>
>It seems this quesôn is asked more oven than any other.......
>Mythus
>Mythus MAgic
>Epic of Aerth
>Aerth Besâry
>Necropolis
>Mythus Prime
>
>I think Prime was the last thing released (i dunno for sure--a FAQ syre
>would help!).................................
>
>Chris,

Add to this list:

GM Screen
Six issues of "Journeys" magazine
Six issues of "Mythic Masters" magazine

Good Gaming,
Michael John Weaver
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 16:00:33 +0200
"Bilbrey, Jason E" at Nov 1, 96 02:00:06 pm

>
> Where does it say the part about ONLY 10 steep? I KNOW it says you
> can't apply the extra steep to Heka-genera^ng areas, but I could nd
> no secôn that says you can only add 10 steep. The only thing I found
> was something saying that you could remove as much steep from any single
> area if you had to lessen your iniâl steep.

Doesn't it seems silly, if aged wizard/dweomecraever/bard/priest
won't known more spells and universe than young ones. This restricôn
should be used as opônal, and I think it's there not to give players
idea: I'll make old character and I'll be able to know all thous lovely
reball-spells....

Kautsu

Pyydysmaenê 19
20660 LITTOINEN
FINLAND
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 09:30:13 -0500

Michael J Weaversaid:

>Add to this list:
>
>GM Screen
>Six issues of "Journeys" magazine
>Six issues of "Mythic Masters" magazine

GDW did not publish Mythic Masters magazine...that was Tri-Gee Enterprises.
The rest of the list is correct, however

Loren Wiseman
GDW Emeritus
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 12:27:10 -0600
In-Reply-To: <961101145023_1416265264@emout19.mail.aol.com> from "Richard
Crook" at Nov 1, 96 02:50:25 pm

For those of you who did not read my pos^ngs on this maker, I corrected
myself by sta^ng that the 10 point restricôn on Age STEEP is a House
Rule used in our campaign. The purpose of the rule is to promote game
balance. The original rules on page 104-105 of Mythus do not have a
restricôn, except that no age STEEP may be added to Heka-producing K/S
Areas. Personally, I agree with the 10 point restricôn because it
forces players to develop more well-rounded HP's. Those of you familiar
with my character creaôn techniques should be surprised to hear this
from me, but it is true. What good is it to gain 50 points of STEEP from
being 60 years old, only to place all of it in a K/S Area that is seldom
used? If you really want to juggle around with points, use the
Akribute points for Age. Some^mes you can get a beker overall eect
by aec^ng one akribute (and subsequently several K/S Areas) then by
focusing solely on one skill.

More later,

M. Hays
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 15:15:52 EST

John Stanton wrote:

>>Hey, I would be happy to play test it, if someone e-mailed me a copy

(Unhallowed)...<<

Me too, come to think of it....................

Chris Stainton
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 15:34:20 -0500
In-Reply-To: <96Nov2.160045+0200_eet.16653-17085+117@utu.> from "Ani
Kauâinen" at Nov 2, 96 04:00:33 pm

> Doesn't it seems silly, if aged wizard/dweomecraever/bard/priest
> won't known more spells and universe than young ones. This restricôn

Well, there is a point to be made, and that is older HPs tend to have higher
Mental and Spiritual akributes than younger ones, so most heka-genera^ng
K/S Areas will be higher anyway.

> should be used as opônal, and I think it's there not to give players
> idea: I'll make old character and I'll be able to know all thous lovely
> reball-spells....

Well, that's not much compared to what one player tried to do. He decided to
play a really old Green Dweomercraever (90 yrs old, civilized) in hopes of
being able to max out his Green Dweomercraeving to use the Rejuvinate
casa^ng, which will essenâlly de-age him, thus allowing him to have a,
say, 20-year old HP with 90-year old STEEP bonuses.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 23:48:17 +0200
In-Reply-To: <199611022034.PAA21592@kraken.mvnet.wnec.edu> from "David K.
Folger" at Nov 2, 96 03:34:20 pm

> Well, there is a point to be made, and that is older HPs tend to have higher
> Mental and Spiritual akributes than younger ones, so most heka-genera^ng
> K/S Areas will be higher anyway.

Yep, but not high enough. Of course, when my players distribute
either the loss or gain of steep due age, I force them to give a good
reason for each change. (ie. they must write background which tells why
and how they did gain those high Heka-genera^ng STEEPs). The powerplayers
don't like it and can't create believable background, so they won't get
those extra high Heka-genera^ng steeps...

> Well, that's not much compared to what one player tried to do. He decided to
> play a really old Green Dweomercraever (90 yrs old, civilized) in hopes of
> being able to max out his Green Dweomercraeving to use the Rejuvinate
> casa^ng, which will essenâlly de-age him, thus allowing him to have a,
> say, 20-year old HP with 90-year old STEEP bonuses.

And you'll give such a powerplayer that spell... Boo! Sssss!
That's where GM supervises HP creaôn, to interfere with such stupid
ideas. Of course, if you know player good enough and think he/she can
handle such a dicult character, you'll allow creaôn of such a
powerful character. (I don't have books with me, but I think 90-years old
character should have _very_ high mental and physical akributes to
survive alive at all).

Kautsu
Pyydysmaenê 19
20660 LITTOINEN
FINLAND
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 17:50:58 -0500
In-Reply-To: <96Nov2.234818+0200_eet.16786-17058+178@utu.> from "Ani
Kauâinen" at Nov 2, 96 11:48:17 pm

> > Well, there is a point to be made, and that is older HPs tend to have higher
> > Mental and Spiritual akributes than younger ones, so most heka-genera^ng
> > K/S Areas will be higher anyway.
>
> Yep, but not high enough.

It's plenty high enough. Between high die-rolls and age adjustments, an HP
can easily fall into the 51+ range for some Heka-Genera^ng K/S Areas. That
gives the HP near certain chance of using GRADE IV cas^ngs, which are quite
powerful. Compare that to the oldie who goes all out physical. Aside from
harsh penalês to physical akributes due to age, even a skill such as
combat, hand weapons is no match for dweomercraeving. Even if the HPs steep
is 80+ in combat, hand weapons, if he or she goes up against a persona with
reverse akack charm, then that HP has just successfully used that immense
skill against himself or herself.
Also, keep in mind that Magick in Mythus is oven related to technology in
our own world and consider that in our world, age is largely irrelevent when
it comes to computer competency. Similarly, in Mythus, an older character
isn't necessarily more genious with Heka-Genera^ng K/S Areas than a younger
one.. there is hardly even a tendency (although some, as indicated by
akribute adjustments).

> > Well, that's not much compared to what one player tried to do. He decided to
> > play a really old Green Dweomercraever (90 yrs old, civilized) in hopes of
> > being able to max out his Green Dweomercraeving to use the Rejuvinate
> > casa^ng, which will essenâlly de-age him, thus allowing him to have a,
> > say, 20-year old HP with 90-year old STEEP bonuses.
>
> And you'll give such a powerplayer that spell... Boo! Sssss!

No^ce I said 'tried'. I simply did not allow the points to be put into the
heka K/S Areas. And, for the record, I do not 'give' cas^ngs. The player
gets to pick and choose, but I do roll a d% for availability for each chosen
spell (as per Epic of AErth depending upon HPs origin).

> That's where GM supervises HP creaôn, to interfere with such stupid
> ideas.

I nd it's best to just let a player go for whatever he or she wants.
Players who put nothing but stats into their HPs get nothing but stats out
of playing them, and they quickly lose interest. They will oven envy those
HPs who actually have a personality.
Anyway, I think any player who plays under any GM who impliments a good
variety of things will nd that maxing out anything while ignoring the rest
will make the HP very useless.
One of the things I nd so great about Dangerous Journeys is that the HPs
are both diverse and actually extremely talented in a few areas, which is
something you'll rarely see in a skill-based game. Also, despite the power
of a typical HP, there is always endless amounts of space for there to be
challenge. To the issue of diversity, though, it helps a great deal. A
likle bit I like to tell players is about the ^me my brother's HP did
around 400 PD to a creature without using any combat skill whatsoever. In
fact, the K/S Area that was used was Cultured Palate. His cavalier was
specialized in spirits, and when a Lemure was haun^ng a nearby residence,
he was able to iden^fy the spirit as well as its weakness. He then went out
and bought about 200 bells, strapped them to himself, and just walked into
the house. The weakness of Lemures is that ringing bells do 1d3 PD to it.
1d3 ^mes 200 bells certainly destroys it.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 17:42:59 +0000

I'll take a copy of unhallowed also. Thanks

Randy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:25:17 -0700
In-Reply-To: <199611022250.RAA29135@kraken.mvnet.wnec.edu> from "David K.
Folger" at Nov 2, 96 05:50:58 pm

> One of the things I nd so great about Dangerous Journeys is that the HPs
> are both diverse and actually extremely talented in a few areas, which is
> something you'll rarely see in a skill-based game. Also, despite the power
> of a typical HP, there is always endless amounts of space for there to be
> challenge. To the issue of diversity, though, it helps a great deal. A
> likle bit I like to tell players is about the ^me my brother's HP did
> around 400 PD to a creature without using any combat skill whatsoever. In
> fact, the K/S Area that was used was Cultured Palate. His cavalier was
> specialized in spirits, and when a Lemure was haun^ng a nearby residence,
> he was able to iden^fy the spirit as well as its weakness. He then went out
> and bought about 200 bells, strapped them to himself, and just walked into
> the house. The weakness of Lemures is that ringing bells do 1d3 PD to it.
> 1d3 ^mes 200 bells certainly destroys it.

Okay, I'll bite.

You *are* joking, right? You actually *do* know that the _Spirits_ sub-area
of _Cultutred_Palate_ has to do with liquor and not with misbegoken souls,
and this was all a test to see if we're really reading this...

Right?!?

Aaron Brezenski

=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 22:42:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Bakle Example One: (fwd)

---------- Forwarded message ---------Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 22:36:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Milagros C Gonzalez <mgonzale@students.miami.edu>
To: "Bilbrey, Jason E" <jbilb682@uwsp.edu>
Subject: Re: Bakle Example One:

Jason
My suggesôn is to handle run the game without referring to the rule
book.

For example, in combat, ask players for their K/S score and adjust it
according to the situaôn using the standard modiers chart. If the
character knows the skill, use the appropriate STEEP; If not, use the ability
score.

Just wing it, focusing more on story than on rules. If you're not sure
what to do, be honest with the players and ask for suggesôns. But,
once you've made a decision, refer any player concerns to the end of the
session. Rule-referencing and debate are no fun for you, and,
ul^mately, no good for the players because is slows down the acôn.

Oko Zequeira.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 22:43:48 -0500
Subject: Re: On crea^ng a new HP... (fwd)

---------- Forwarded message ---------Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 22:52:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Milagros C Gonzalez <mgonzale@students.miami.edu>
To: "Bilbrey, Jason E" <jbilb682@uwsp.edu>

If you don't like something that a player wants, just say no.

This presupposes that you have established two basic ground rules in your
campaign, namely, that it is a coopera^ve, not antagonis^c one, and that
the referee has nal say. If you have this arrangement and are not
comfortable with certain developments, you can say so and pick up the
conversaôn again aver game ^me.

Crea^ng a coopera^ve campaign some^mes requires one more thing:
allowing someone else to referee every now and then. This may mean
running a shared world, a dierent seing, or maybe even another
game.

When your players see you in their shoes, they'll appreciate it, and will
be more likely to work with you when you referee again.

Oko Zequeira.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 23:26:50 -0500

Subject: Man oh Man...

>challenge. To the issue of diversity, though, it helps a great deal. A
>likle bit I like to tell players is about the ^me my brother's HP did
>around 400 PD to a creature without using any combat skill whatsoever. In
>fact, the K/S Area that was used was Cultured Palate. His cavalier was
>specialized in spirits, and when a Lemure was haun^ng a nearby residence,
>he was able to iden^fy the spirit as well as its weakness. He then went out
>and bought about 200 bells, strapped them to himself, and just walked into
>the house. The weakness of Lemures is that ringing bells do 1d3 PD to it.
>1d3 ^mes 200 bells certainly destroys it.
>
Man, if that isn't the biggest pervision of the rules, not just the bells
(a group of bells should have no cumula^ve eect), but the fact that
spirits are a form of liquor, not NPM/PPM creatures.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 00:47:00 -0500

<< Personally, I agree with the 10 point restricôn because it
forces players to develop more well-rounded HP's >>

While this some^mes seems necessary, I am basically opposed to forcing any
specic HP development on a player (and the HP). However, any HP whose
development is limited to a couple prime areas is likely to nd diculty
in my campaign. That combat monster may look awesome, but when he arrives
aver the bakle because he couldn't swim the moat and climb the wall to get
to it, he may have second thoughts about the benets of crea^ng a balanced
character.

JM rule 43.3: Don't demand, guide....... very rmly if necessary... ;-)

Rick Crook
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 00:51:32 PST
Subject: Re: Man oh Man...

>>... the K/S Area that was used was Cultured Palate. His cavalier was
>>specialized in spirits, and when a Lemure was haun^ng a nearby residence,

>>he was able to iden^fy the spirit as well as its weakness. ...

AHahahaha! <choke> <gasp>

Pardon me while I wipe the tears from my eyes...

ROTFLMAO

Dave=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 10:33:51 -0800
Subject: Denagda mailing list
X-To: Patrick McLaughlin <pmcl@cts.com>

>Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 08:37:19 -0600
>X-Sender: scrtdrgn@www.ezl.com
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>To: jstanton
>From: scrtdrgn@ezl.com (Erik Stephans)
>Subject: Denagda mailing list
>
>
> Sorry, last one had an error in it. Here's how you really subscribe to the
> mailing list.:)
>
> Just send a message to listproc@dorje.com with:
>
> SUBSCRIBE DENAGDA <rst name> <last name>
>
> in the message. You don't need to put your e-mail address, as it takes that
> from your header.
>
> Erik
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 22:17:03 +1000
Subject: Nega^ve Heka

Okay I'm asking, "what in the wide wide world of sports" is Nega^ve
Heka, is it in the books? Because I can't nd it anywhere, maybe this
is one for JRT. Is it generated the same way, if so what is the
dierence?

Also I'm keen to locate the Magic universiês. Has anyone eshed out
these and if so is there a network of lesser universiês one can akend
and s^ll reach full prac^ce?
I am leaning towards allowing Dweomercraevers and other casters to have
been educated via the Masters Appren^ce method also but this would
reduce a HP's chance of becoming Full Prac^ôner in the case
of D'cravers depending on the Masters educaôn and Cas^ng ra^ng and
background ie being a graduate.

Oh, by the way I'd just like to add that I think the fact that I don't
have MMM and others do is turning me into a twisted, jibbering, demented
end and I don't like it.

Thanks, Brian
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 12:23:08 -0500
Subject: A personal note...

Harold and Greg, I got your money for the Mythus & Dragon stu.
Thanks for your honesty.

My apologies for sending this to the list ... I seem to have lost
their individual addresses.... :/

- Sean
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 21:17:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Nega^ve Heka

At 10:17 PM 11/5/96 +1000, you wrote:
>Okay I'm asking, "what in the wide wide world of sports" is Nega^ve
>Heka, is it in the books? Because I can't nd it anywhere, maybe this
>is one for JRT. Is it generated the same way, if so what is the
>dierence?

According to the intros in Mythus Magick, Heka comes in three states:
Posi^ve, Nega^ve, and the most common variety, Mixed. All Heka comes
from the Astral Dimension via the plane of all Heka, which has two states:
that originia^ng from the true Astral Plane (posi^ve) or the Abyssial
Sink (nega^ve), and it mixes together in the inner spheres (mixed).

There is likle dierence between the variety--all accomplish eects in
the same manner, it's just that the "charge" is dierent. There are some
cas^ngs and powers that make one more resistant to pos^ve/nega^ve heka,
and certain susceptabilites as well. According to the Mythus book,

akempts at Heka Absorpôn won't work against Nega^ve Heka, which will
drain heka instead. However, I'm not sure if that rule is s^ll valid,
based on the cas^ng descripôn in MM, and the fact that certain creatures
can feed on/absorb all types of Heka.

Assume the general rules of thumb if type is needed. Any Supernatural+
Creature from the Upper Planes (Devas) uses Posi^ve Heka, those from the
Lower Planes (Demons) use Nega^ve Heka. Most Preternatural creatures
(such as Elementals) use Mixed Heka. Undead likely use Nega^ve Heka.
Most Humans use Mixed Heka, as do many races on Phaeree, no maker the
anity.

There are a few excepôns. Witchcraev says it gives its persona a
"nega^ve heka" energy, which is why witches have trouble ing in. I
would rule Devilshine that is powered by Vow/Pact is Nega^ve in nature,
since the power is imbued directly from dark beings, outside of the normal
Canon of Priestcrav, and has certain ammeniês. (And this would apply to
those with similar natures: Annis, for instance, because they are hags
(though of Preternatural sort) would use Nega^ve Heka).

For all intents and purposes, assume all Heka used by Personas is Mixed
unless stated otherwise. Certain cas^ngs superstate this, directly
summoning Pos^ve or Nega^ve Heka force.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 00:48:13 -0500
Subject: Heka Detecôn

I've been looking through the books for a table I remember concerning heka or
aura detecôn. If I recall correctly, the table gave colors associated with
a wide variety of magickal sources and eects.

If anyone out there can direct me to the table I'd be extremely grateful.

Thanks,
Jason
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 00:51:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Heka Detecôn

<< I've been looking through the books for a table I remember concerning heka
or
aura detecôn. If I recall correctly, the table gave colors associated
with
a wide variety of magickal sources and eects. >>

I believe its under Astral Sight in Astrology or Fortune Telling. Denitely
astral sight tho

Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 12:34:00 -0600
Subject: I'm sorry

I know that some of you folks requested a copy of the condensed Mythus-L
logles for 1993.

I have screwed something up....so could you please re-send your requests
for aforemenôned
Cool-Ass condensed logs to F8SWARNG1@AOL.COM

My mail server at work cannot handle the 1.4 meg le. Oh, and BTW the
whole thing was done in
Word 6...just a likle FYI.

Next I'll be working on 1994...so look for them soon.

Oh, and one other thing...does anyone want the le for their web site?

Wayne Westphalen
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Global Distribuôn System Supervisor
Radisson Hospitality Worldwide
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 20:16:19 -0500


>> I've been looking through the books for a table I remember concerning heka
>>or aura detecôn. If I recall correctly, the table gave colors associated
>>with a wide variety of magickal sources and eects.

>I believe its under Astral Sight in Astrology or Fortune Telling.
Denitely
>astral sight tho
>
>Rick C.

Rick,
I looked at all the "Astral" cas^ngs in the Magick book and none of them
included any table of colors. I could've sworn I saw it in one of the books
and now I can't nd it. Very frustra^ng! Any other ideas?

Anyone?

Thanks,
Jason
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 14:38:11 +1300

>>I believe its under Astral Sight in Astrology or Fortune Telling.
> Denitely
>>astral sight tho
>
>I looked at all the "Astral" cas^ngs in the Magick book and none of them
>included any table of colors. I could've sworn I saw it in one of the books
>and now I can't nd it. Very frustra^ng! Any other ideas?

Hi Jason. I don't keep my Magick book at work, but I'm preky sure you'll
nd the table of colours for auras in the Fortune Telling secôn. The
spell is Read Aura or something like that, and is one of the lower-grade
spells.

Malcolm
malcolm@adi.co.nz
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 00:50:39 -0500

<<
>>I believe its under Astral Sight in Astrology or Fortune Telling.
> Denitely
>>astral sight tho
>
>I looked at all the "Astral" cas^ngs in the Magick book and none of them
>included any table of colors. I could've sworn I saw it in one of the
books
>and now I can't nd it. Very frustra^ng! Any other ideas? >>

Mythus Magick, Page 211. Fortune Telling, Grade III; Aural Sight Cantrip.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 19:34:14 -0400
From: Aran Mull <pubacm@SAFNET.ALBANY.EDU>

OK, I haven't looked at the books in too long, and played for ages
(work sucks) but if ny failing memory serves you should check the
vril (?SP?) aka psychic powers in the Mythus Magik book

Aran.

> In a message dated 96-11-07 00:53:55 EST, you write:
>
> >> I've been looking through the books for a table I remember concerning heka
> >>or aura detecôn. If I recall correctly, the table gave colors associated
> >>with a wide variety of magickal sources and eects.
>
> >I believe its under Astral Sight in Astrology or Fortune Telling.
> Denitely
> >astral sight tho
> >
> >Rick C.
>
> Rick,
> I looked at all the "Astral" cas^ngs in the Magick book and none of them
> included any table of colors. I could've sworn I saw it in one of the books
> and now I can't nd it. Very frustra^ng! Any other ideas?
>
> Anyone?
>
> Thanks,
> Jason
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 08:00:00 PST
From: Wocken Paul <WockenP@WSDOT.WA.GOV>
Subject: Test, Please Delete

The following binary le has been uuencoded to ensure successful

transmission. Use UUDECODE to extract.

begin 600 winmail.dat
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M(0```#%%,C%%0S$P-S0S0D0P,3$Y13<V,#`P,#5!-#$Q,S%&`-D&`06``P`.
M````S`<+``T`"`````@``P#^``$-@`0``@````(``@`!"(`'`!@```!)4$TN
M36EC<F]S;V9T($UA:6PN3F]T90`Q"`$$@`$`%````%1E<W0L(%!L96%S92!$
M96QE=&4`N08!!)`&``0!```!````"````!X`(#H!````"0```"=->71H=7,G
M``````L`0#H``````P`5#`$````>``$P`0````D````G37ET:'5S)P`````>
M``,P`0```!L```!M>71H=7,M;$!B<F]W;G9M+F)R;W=N+F5D=0``'@`",`$`
M```%````4TU44``````"`0LP`0```"````!33510.DU95$A54RU,0$)23U=.
M5DTN0E)/5TXN1415``(!_P\!````2```````````8)1D8$&X`0@`*RN**0``
M`````&0`&@`M`!L````4`"=->71H=7,G`&UY=&AU<RUL0&)R;W=N=FTN8G)O
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M`%I!$Q\>`'```0```!0```!497-T+"!0;&5A<V4@1&5L971E``(!<0`!````
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M@@$`````````+T\]5T$N1T]6+T]5/5=31$]4+T-./5)%0TE0245.5%,O0TX]
M4T-'`!X`^#\!````#````%=O8VME;B!0875L``(!^S\!````1`````````#<
MIT#(P$(0&K2Y"``K+^&"`0````````Ò3SU702Y'3U8O3U4]5U-$3U0O0TX]
M4D5#25!)14Y44R]#3CU30T<`'@#Z/P$````,````5V]C:V5N(%!A=6P`0``'
M,.",(KY[T;L!0``(,!`4)+Y[T;L!"P`C```````+`"D```````,`%P`!````
M`P`V```````>`!H``0````D```!)4$TN3D]410`````>`#<``0```!0```!4
597-T+"!0;&5A<V4@1&5L971E`#1M
`
end
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 16:23:00 -0600
Subject: 93 Logles

So, now that some of you have the condensed 1993 Mythus-L logs...what do
you think I should do next....should I go throught the whole thing and
do some sort of FAQ or perhaps a "Variaôns on a Mythus Theme" lis^ng
all of the various rules that people use for certain aspects of the
game?...for example...
All rules governing Missile Combat....How To Become a Full
Pracôner.....things like that.

Wayne Westphalen

"From sleeping visions daily we're torn...
In waking hours our hopes are forelorn.
It's all we do and all we dream...
Doomed to drowned in a helpless stream."...Fates Warning
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:55:04 +0100

Subject: Re: 93 Logles

At 16:23 13-11-96 -0600, you wrote:
>So, now that some of you have the condensed 1993 Mythus-L logs...what do
>you think I should do next....should I go throught the whole thing and
>do some sort of FAQ or perhaps a "Variaôns on a Mythus Theme" lis^ng
>all of the various rules that people use for certain aspects of the
>game?...for example...
>All rules governing Missile Combat....How To Become a Full
>Pracôner.....things like that.
>
>Wayne Westphalen

FAQ would be nice, preferrably on the WWW in HTMLized form.

Harold
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 08:23:43 +0000
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=Carlson%l=CARLSON/NACORPINTE/0008DCF8@spyder.carlson.com>

On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, Westphalen, Wayne wrote:

> So, now that some of you have the condensed 1993 Mythus-L logs...what do

To save Wayne from being deluged with requests, I shall humbly point out
that the le is available from my logles secôn (which, yes, needs
upda^ng, but I'm a likle strapped for ^me!):

hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/logles/

> you think I should do next....should I go throught the whole thing and
> do some sort of FAQ or perhaps a "Variaôns on a Mythus Theme" lis^ng
> all of the various rules that people use for certain aspects of the
> game?...for example...

Personally, I second the moôn for a WWW-based FAQ, which I would gladly
post on my site (and I'm sure others would like to do the same).

Mike

p.s. for those of you who are *not* yet in the Mythus classieds: do
it. e-mail me. My group is being resuscitated because someone else in
Williamsburg (who is unaware of this list altogether) found the Mythus

classieds and contacted me. He's bringing another player as well :-)

hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/gamers/

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:15:06 EST

>>FAQ would be nice<<

A FAQ was one of the main reasons for this discussion group, according to
one of the rst
posts..........................................................
I am really supprized it took this long........

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:15:06 EST
Subject: Mythus Classied

>>>p.s. for those of you who are *not* yet in the Mythus classieds: do
it. e-mail me. My group is being resuscitated because someone else in
Williamsburg (who is unaware of this list altogether) found the Mythus
classieds and contacted me. He's bringing another player as well :-)<<

There are quite a few of us here, who don't have access to a web brouser
and are only geing Email. Maybe there could be an Emailed based
version of it.
I found another Mythus player, strictly by looking at his email address
and realizeing that he was in the same University that I had
been.................

and maybe instead of all those cute likle sig les, we ought to put
where we're from aver our names.

Chris Stainton,
Jacksonville, FL, USA
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:14:37 -0800


Who is working on the FAQ list? Mike Phillips, do you have a FAQ list on
you web page? If you do, I did not see it.

Sun City Center, FL USA |get what they deserve." --Zena Marley
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:28:24 -0800
Subject: Re: Mythus Classied


> I found another Mythus player, strictly by looking at his email address
> and realizeing that he was in the same University that I had
> been.................

Mmm?! I wonder whom that could be?
>
> and maybe instead of all those cute likle sig les, we ought to put
> where we're from aver our names.

A wonderful idea, but I s^ll like cute. :>


=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 16:24:17 +0000
Subject: Mythus FAQ (was: Re: 93 Logles)
In-Reply-To: <328BA7DD.175F@suntan.eng.usf.edu>

On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Mike Wikek wrote:

> Who is working on the FAQ list? Mike Phillips, do you have a FAQ list on
> you web page? If you do, I did not see it.

I do not have a FAQ, although I made a stab at it a long ^me ago.
Someone else (I have long since forgoken who) was working on one, so I
took my nascent document and dumped it in the bit bucket :-)

I am willing to keep a FAQ on my site, but I'm afraid I don't have the
^me to mess with it much. However, some quick, o-the-cu suggesôns
for some areas to cover:

What is Mythus? What happened to it? (I heard it's, like, totally dead,
and stu; what makes it a viable system?)

Isn't (Trigger Eect/Full Prac^ce) just a likle powerful? (long and
fruiul discussions of both in the archives)

My players are saving AP's and advancing just a couple K/S areas. What
can I do? (mul^ple learning-curves were suggested)

What about Mythic Masters Magazine? New genres/conversions/adventures/etc?

Hopefully someone else can write some answers ;-)

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 22:23:23 EST
Subject: MMM

>>What about Mythic Masters Magazine?<<

What en^ty owned the rights to this magazine?

Chris
Jax, FL
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:48:07 -0500
Subject: Re: MMM

<< >>What about Mythic Masters Magazine?<<

>>> What en^ty owned the rights to this magazine? >>
<<<

TSR, Inc.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 10:22:19 +1000
Subject: Condensed logs

Thanks Mike!

I pulled that 93 log from your page. By the way, I have condensed
(Taken the u and ames out, Heh!)the 95 logs for myself recently if
they are of any interest to anyone. I've actualy split them up into
quarters (must be the Accountant in me :-) because they are a bit big,
it was a good vintage! I'm currently doing 94 but only one quarter done
so far.

By the way does anyone know if there is a general restricôn on line of
sight on cas^ngs generaly? I mean if I wanted to cast say GLOOMCLOUD
(Page 128) or a Dispell, could I cast it on the other side of a door or
wall? Maybe only if I was familiar with the area and could picture it
in my mind???

Thanks, Brian
Illawarra, Australia
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 19:42:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Condensed logs


<>

No, not for direct cas^ngs. If you were using a cas^ng requiring a link,
thats a gray area, however, I s^ll require LOS.

Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 09:43:47 EST
Subject: Re: MMM

>TSR, Inc.<<

Let rephrase the quesôn.........
who originally published the Magazine?
I doubt T$R...........................................
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 11:07:25 -0500
Subject: Condensed 93 logs

Ok....I sent someone out there the wrong ZIP le for the condensed 93
logs...I think what it actually contained was the Original Logs...not the
modied logs....could that person please contact me and I will send him/her
the correct le. Sorry.

Wayne
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 11:46:47 -0500
In-Reply-To: <328D093B.7059@ozemail.com.au>

On Sat, 16 Nov 1996, Brian wrote:

> Thanks Mike!
>
> I pulled that 93 log from your page. By the way, I have condensed
> (Taken the u and ames out, Heh!)the 95 logs for myself recently if
> they are of any interest to anyone. I've actualy split them up into
> quarters (must be the Accountant in me :-) because they are a bit big,
> it was a good vintage! I'm currently doing 94 but only one quarter done
> so far.

Send the 95 logs along! Maybe not to the list, but I'm sure a ton of us
will request them. I'll volunteer to put them up on my page, also - I'm
currently in the process of puing up all my pages here at college, and I
could really use content :).

For those of you who remember the herbs list, that's about all I have up
so far - if you want a preview, go to
hkp://wso.williams.edu/~chagenbu/mythus.
If anyone does check this out, I'd really appreciate reacôns - any and
all would be helpful and taken into consideraôn.

Thanks,
Charles Hagenbuch
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 15:22:03 -0600
Subject: Joining MYTHUS-L
X-cc: rwol@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca

Dear all:

An avid Dangerous Journeys fan found my Mythus notes on my website and
contacted me about his great experiences with the game. He also sent me
some work he's done developing rules for other genres, plus some Excel
spreadsheets for character generaôn and other goodies. It's good stu
that I thought the MYTHUS-L subscribers would jump at the chance to get
their hands on. So I encouraged him to subscribe.

But he's having a tough ^me doing that. His posts vanish into limbo. He
says he has sent 9 test messages and I've never seen them.

So, before I start ac^ng as a middle-man and forwarding on his posts, can
anybody please help me/him out? Is there a le with complete instrucôns
on subscribing and verifying that posts have been sent to MYTHUS-L that
could be sent to him? Who is the list administrator and can he/she help
him get his messages through? (I think he's receiving posts OK.) Are his
problems related to why the list has seemed preky quiet over the last few
weeks?

Thanks for any help geing Mr. Rob Wol's
<rwol@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca> posts go through.

-Doug

free@mcn.net
Bozeman, MT
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 00:30:32 +0200
In-Reply-To: <328D093B.7059@ozemail.com.au> from "Brian" at Nov 16,
96 10:22:19 am

>
>
> Thanks Mike!
>
> By the way does anyone know if there is a general restricôn on line of
> sight on cas^ngs generaly? I mean if I wanted to cast say GLOOMCLOUD
> (Page 128) or a Dispell, could I cast it on the other side of a door or
> wall? Maybe only if I was familiar with the area and could picture it
> in my mind???

I think, rules says you have to see your target, but it'll be a
lot fun, if you give a lot penalês, depending on familiarity, for
cas^ng spell on unseen target. (This also gives more advantage for high
STEEP: There's some advantage for those Easy spells, if you can make them
harder but more powerful). And there's always clairvoyance spell/formula
(IIRC it is Mys^cism spell, but any mage will soon make their own Specic
Cas^ng with same eect, 'cause it's very handy spell :)

Kautsu
Pyydysmaenê 19
20660 LITTOINEN
FINLAND
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 10:56:55 +1000
Subject: Joining

At 03:22 PM 11/16/96 -0600, you wrote:
>Dear all:
>
>An avid Dangerous Journeys fan found my Mythus notes on my website and
>contacted me about his great experiences with the game. He also sent me
>some work he's done developing rules for other genres, plus some Excel
>spreadsheets for character generaôn and other goodies. It's good stu
>that I thought the MYTHUS-L subscribers would jump at the chance to get
>their hands on. So I encouraged him to subscribe.
>
>But he's having a tough ^me doing that. His posts vanish into limbo. He
>says he has sent 9 test messages and I've never seen them.
>Snip

I've sent you some suggesôns direct so as not to bore the members, personaly I think
he is not signed on. It it has been quiet, Some of the regulars have been conspicuous
by their absence ie Jesse (did he get seduced away by a siren?) and Mat Berry.

One of my players is realy keen to play a Forester aver seeing it menôned on last
years list log. I said "no problem" Ill get it, but when I looked I can't nd the KS
package. Did it get posted? I now think it may be MMM source info (Oh no!!) can anyone
send me the vocaôn or just the KS bundle or is it o limits? I hope not.

Brian
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 21:39:59 -0500
Subject: Re: MMM

<< >TSR, Inc.<<

Let rephrase the quesôn.........
who originally published the Magazine?
I doubt T$R...........................................
>>

Quite right. twas originally Trigee Enterprises Corporaôn.

Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 18:59:48 +0100
From: Tiziana Valla^ <tvalla^@PELAGUS.IT>

Non voglio pi=F9 ricevere MITHUS-L Tiziana Vallla^
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:14:15 -0500
From: Steven Payne <praetor@WIDOMAKER.COM>
Subject: Quesôn that may be o-topic but of good merit.

I'm new to the list and I have a quesôn which is a bit o-topic, but my
girlfriend needs as many sources as possible. She is wri^ng a paper on
why people role-play and needs input from real role-players, other than the
ones in our own personal group. She has enough of the standard "It's fun."
answers, if you could be a bit more in-depth in the answers, she would
appreciate. You can send me e-mail at the address below. Thanks in
advance for all of the responses we will get from everyone.
Scok Payne
praetor@widowmaker.com
The Praetor is your judge, jury and execuôner.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 03:46:01 +0000
Subject: Help

I have a few quesôns of all of you. Are warriors preky tough
right of the bat? It seems when they are walking around with 75%
weapons skill dealing out 6d6 for a two handed sword that's tough.
Are mages as tough? Someone give me some ideas about toning down my
campaigns. It is like I have to through tough stu to challenge.
Also one other thing and I'll shut up. If a character has only say
herbalsim with no magick skill at all can they s^ll cast spells and
how many? Thanks
Randy
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:21:19 +0000
Subject: Re: Help
In-Reply-To: <199611182037.OAA20338@homebrew.pinenet.com>

On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, Randy Sivigny wrote:

> I have a few quesôns of all of you. Are warriors preky tough
> right of the bat?

Mostly tough. Depends partly on the armor they can aord, and on the
weapons they can aord.

> It seems when they are walking around with 75%
> weapons skill dealing out 6d6 for a two handed sword that's tough.

<cough, hack> Um, 75% o the bat? Someone's been preky lenient with
the quirks... Did the person get a counter-quirk? Is it played up
appropriately? (75 is, pardon the expression, a likle STEEP as the
iniâl value...)

That is, indeed, nasty. The warriors in my games have been averaging
around 35 - 40 star^ng. I think 1 HP so far has started higher than

that, but most throw their iniâl AP/G's into the appropriate K/S Area
and end up in the mid 40's within a month or two (depending on the pace
of the game).

75%. Indeed. Whoa..... I haven't thrown anything with 75 STEEP at the
party, much less had a party member be that high..... (Well, okay, there
was that one Mage with a dweomercraev of, um, 71, but that was a
special-case Very Nasty(tm) Bad Guy).

> Are mages as tough? Someone give me some ideas about toning down my
> campaigns. It is like I have to through tough stu to challenge.

Mages can be as tough. Try: Armor, Physical plus Quicken and Flight, and
a few Triggered Eects. Throw in Readied Cas^ngs, some illusions to
obscure themselves, and they can hold o such nasês for quite a while
(if not at out slaughter them). I nd that an appropriately prepared
black/gloomy darkness mage/priest can do some REALLY nasty things in very
short order (petricaôn as a grade I, anyone?), and well-played will
get people to stop thinking with their swords, as it were.

Or, as I once did, start an invasion from Inner Phaeree. A few Goblins
aren't nasty, but since they can summon their fellows automa^cally and
at will, a minor skirmish *always* raises the alarm, and dealing with a
few is easy. Dealing with a few hundred, well, luck *does* turn against
one eventually.....

If, however, that isn't enough, throw a pair of Ogres at the ghter.
Or, even beker, an Ein or something else that does Impact (no armor
protecôn) and Giant-sized damage..... Or a dragon, if you're into
overkill.

> Also one other thing and I'll shut up. If a character has only say
> herbalsim with no magick skill at all can they s^ll cast spells and
> how many?

My o-the-cu comment is yes. Magick is necessary for Dweomercraev
cas^ngs only (and, I would opine, only for (a) research thereof and (b)
use of Full Prac^ce). Similarly, Religion for Priestcraev. The others
list their enablers as appropriate, but someone with Herbalism should
have a number of Herbalism cas^ngs equal to the percentage (expressed as
STEEP) of the total Herbalism cas^ngs. So, an HP with 25 STEEP should
have 25% of the Herbalism cas^ngs. Usually, the player picks half, the
JM picks half.

Just my humble thoughts...

-- __+__

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:17:56 -0500
From: Scok Payne <praetor@WIDOMAKER.COM>
Subject: DJ: TSR selling at discount prices?

I heard from Mike J. Weaver that TSR was selling o DJ stock for a
discount. I was wondering if anyone had any further info on how I could
possibly order some. My books have begun to fall apart and I have lost
some page and need to get replacements.
Thanks.
Scok Payne
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 17:05:53 EST
Subject: Cas^ngs Tomes

How much does everybody charge for the iniâl purchace of Cas^ngs
Tomes?
Obviously it would depend on the number of cas^ngs contained
therein.......

Curious,
Chris,
Jax, FL
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:37:46 -0600
Subject: Re: Help
from "Mike Phillips" at Nov 18, 96 04:21:19 pm

>
> On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, Randy Sivigny wrote:
>
> > I have a few quesôns of all of you. Are warriors preky tough
> > right of the bat?
>
> Mostly tough. Depends partly on the armor they can aord, and on the
> weapons they can aord.

Warriors are extremely tough if they can get the right armor and
weapons. Full Plate Armor w/Pauldrons and a Shield of some kind are very
stylish this year. However, even armor must surrender to the power of a
well placed crossbow bolt (which can punch through most armor like it
wasn't even there). Addiônally, the Speed Factors associated with
piecemeal armor can render warrior ineec^ve.

>
> > It seems when they are walking around with 75%
> > weapons skill dealing out 6d6 for a two handed sword that's tough.
>
> <cough, hack> Um, 75% o the bat? Someone's been preky lenient with
> the quirks... Did the person get a counter-quirk? Is it played up
> appropriately? (75 is, pardon the expression, a likle STEEP as the
> iniâl value...)

On the contrary, 75% STEEP for a two handed sword is not at all unusual
for a Warrior persona. Judiciously applied Enhanced STEEP combined with
specializaôn make a 76% or more STEEP in a sub-area extremely likely.
My own Cavalier started out with a 61+ STEEP in Combat, Hand Weapons and
a 91 STEEP in 1-Handed Swords. He now has a 78 in Combat, Hand and a 117
in 1-Hand swords.

>
> That is, indeed, nasty. The warriors in my games have been averaging
> around 35 - 40 star^ng. I think 1 HP so far has started higher than
> that, but most throw their iniâl AP/G's into the appropriate K/S Area
> and end up in the mid 40's within a month or two (depending on the pace
> of the game).

Those warriors are pud. They barely know how to swing a sword, much less
use one with skill. 35-40 STEEP in a weapon is barely the level of a
professional veteran soldier. HP's should be much more than that.

>
> 75%. Indeed. Whoa..... I haven't thrown anything with 75 STEEP at the
> party, much less had a party member be that high..... (Well, okay, there
> was that one Mage with a dweomercraev of, um, 71, but that was a
> special-case Very Nasty(tm) Bad Guy).

You don't necessarily need high STEEP to challenge a party, though it
helps. Probably one of the more overlooked balancing factors is Joss. A
few points of Joss here and there can give the EP's the edge some^mes,
allowing them to escape to harass the party another day.

>
> > Are mages as tough? Someone give me some ideas about toning down my
> > campaigns. It is like I have to through tough stu to challenge.
>
> Mages can be as tough. Try: Armor, Physical plus Quicken and Flight, and
> a few Triggered Eects. Throw in Readied Cas^ngs, some illusions to
> obscure themselves, and they can hold o such nasês for quite a while
> (if not at out slaughter them). I nd that an appropriately prepared
> black/gloomy darkness mage/priest can do some REALLY nasty things in very
> short order (petricaôn as a grade I, anyone?), and well-played will
> get people to stop thinking with their swords, as it were.

I hate Mages. Par^cularly Drow Mages, as in our campaign they all seem
to be Full Prac^ôners, which really is unlikely. However, they are
challenging foes. You should throw tough stu to challenge the HP's.
That is what Dangerous Journeys is all about. Mages are extremely
sinister. Even a parâl with only Grade V cas^ngs can be tough, as
they get the dreaded Reverse Akack Charm, which totally defeats warriors
unless they can manage to disjunct it. However, in our campaign, we have
ruled that two Reverse Akacks eec^vely cancel each other out, so
everyone eventually ends either being able to cast it or aquiring an item
that lets them cast it. Physical Armor is also a good one for Mages.
The Cas^ngs in Mythus Magick can be truly horrendous if used in a
crea^ve manner, so if you really want to defend a Mage's Inner Sanctum,
then read them carefully.

>
> Or, as I once did, start an invasion from Inner Phaeree. A few Goblins
> aren't nasty, but since they can summon their fellows automa^cally and
> at will, a minor skirmish *always* raises the alarm, and dealing with a
> few is easy. Dealing with a few hundred, well, luck *does* turn against
> one eventually.....
>
> If, however, that isn't enough, throw a pair of Ogres at the ghter.
> Or, even beker, an Ein or something else that does Impact (no armor
> protecôn) and Giant-sized damage..... Or a dragon, if you're into
> overkill.

Anything that iicts Impact damage is nasty. HP's are beker o
avoiding being hit by such creatures en^rely. That is what Joss is for.
I once let my Cavalier be hit by an ogre. He took 81 points of Non-Vital
physical damage from a rock. That was AFTER the Defense Bonus II was
penetrated. It was originally an Ultra-Vital hit, but I spent Joss like
mad to reduce it.

>
> > Also one other thing and I'll shut up. If a character has only say
> > herbalsim with no magick skill at all can they s^ll cast spells and
> > how many?
>
> My o-the-cu comment is yes. Magick is necessary for Dweomercraev
> cas^ngs only (and, I would opine, only for (a) research thereof and (b)
> use of Full Prac^ce). Similarly, Religion for Priestcraev. The others
> list their enablers as appropriate, but someone with Herbalism should
> have a number of Herbalism cas^ngs equal to the percentage (expressed as
> STEEP) of the total Herbalism cas^ngs. So, an HP with 25 STEEP should
> have 25% of the Herbalism cas^ngs. Usually, the player picks half, the
> JM picks half.

Magick is only required for cas^ng Dweomercraev Cas^ngs. The only
other K/S Area that requires another K/S Area in order for Cas^ngs is
Priestcraev (it uses Religion). In our campaign, an HP gets his STEEP
in Cas^ngs from each heka-engendered K/S Area. Addiônally, for each
grade of Cas^ngs, the number is the DR of the Cas^ng mul^plied by the
STEEP expressed as a percentage for each Grade. For example, a
Dweomercraever with 41 STEEP would receive 41% of all Dweomercraev,
General and his School. For Grade I, he would get 41 * 3 (for DR "Easy")
= 123 % of Grade I Cas^ngs. Grade II is also 123%, Grade III is 84%
(41*2) and Grade IV is just 41% of Grade IV Cas^ngs. A Full
Prac^ôner would adjust by one DR easier and include Grades V, VI, and
VII. The total of all grades should equal 41% of the total Cas^ngs in
the K/S area. If it does not, then the HP lls up the Cas^ng Grades
from lowest to highest.

> > Just my humble thoughts... >

My own humble thoughts on the subject. I hope you have enjoyed these two
very dierent viewpoints.

Malcolm Hays
mhays@umr.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:46:32 -0600
Subject: Re: Cas^ngs Tomes
Stainton" at Nov 18, 96 05:05:53 pm

>
> How much does everybody charge for the iniâl purchace of Cas^ngs
> Tomes?
> Obviously it would depend on the number of cas^ngs contained
> therein.......

We have always assumed that the iniâl Tomes an HP starts with are a
part of the HP and therefore are "free." Otherwise, the general expense
of a Tome with Cas^ngs is quite exhorbitant and a basic SEC 5
Dweomercraever would probably be unable to aord all of his Tomes with
his Net Worth. As for buying subsequent Tomes, our rule is that the
blank Tome is basically a high quality book of around 1000 BUCs or so in
value. Somewhere in the manuals there is a price for a blank book. The
Cas^ngs one wishes to inscribe in a new Tome are assigned a value based
on Grade and availability of the Cas^ng. Sorcery Cas^ngs are generally

very hard to get a hold of as are Black Dweomercraev and Necromancy.
White, Green Dweomercraev, Herbalism, Fortune-Telling, and so on are
fairly easy. Heka-Forging and Alchemy are generally the most expensive,
as those are considered to be "trade secrets."

If you want a basic number, we use a pyramidal scale by Grade. Grade I
costs 1000 Bucs ^mes its availibility factor (af). Grade II is
(1000+2000)*af, Grade III is (1+2+3)*1000*af, etc.

I hope this gives you the basic idea.

Malcolm Hays
mhays@umr.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 17:15:23 -0600
Subject: Heka Detecôn

[forward to MYTHUS-L via Doug (free@mcn.net)]

I've been reading the posts on Heka-Detecôn and Auras, and I felt
that I should probably post something about them. We've conglomerated much
of the informaôn on heka-detecôn and aura detecôn in our game into a
very useful chart.
For our group, Auras play a major part in the atmosphere and style
of the game. We've taken the aural sight cas^ngs and converted them into
a chart that we use for every new campaign. The chart breaks down each
Trait, Akribute, Heka Source, Personality Characteris^c, Belief, Emoôn,
etc. into a correspondingly appropriate colour. The GM then just sorts
which par^cular shade of colour he wants for each category, and then
consults our brightness chart to see just how brightly he wants that
par^cular shade to shine.
Some places also have a powerful aura, which denitely adds to the
campaign of the game. Therefore, we've made sure that our chart includes a
likle about condiôns in a locaôn, danger level, and non-standard heka
types.
While it represents a minor ^me investment at the beginning of a
campaign, it gives our campaigns a much needed kick in the pants when it
comes to style and atmosphere.
Example: In our last campaign, a situaôn arose when we needed to know
whether to trust someone or not. He appeared for all intents and purposes
to be a beggar. However, when the aura of the character was read, he
generated extremely high akribute-related heka colours (indica^ng strong
akributes, totally over 90 in each TRAIT), as well as a 'brilliant'
magenta hue (extreme malevolence) and 'bright' amethyst-violet
(preternatural mental Heka of over 1000 points). This informaôn proved

to be extremely useful to the party, as most common beggars are not that
strong in Trait, Heka, or in their malevolent intenôns.
For the rst four months of a game, Aura-reading characters are
steadfastly reading auras and trying to associate certain shades with
certain known or hypothesized character traits, so that they can begin to
scratch the surface of what the manifold shades represent. When an
aura-reader has a good enough ground-base, the informaôn about people
begins to become very useful. For all the Sci-Fi fans out there, it is
something like having an empath on your team... the team leader asks for
some informaôn about a person, the Aura-reader does a quick (and very
rudely intrusive) cas^ng, and proceeds to relate vague guesses about the
subject's likes, dislikes, goals, emoônal state, as well as the very
accurate informaôn about Trait, Heka level, and so on.
Thus, simple informaôn becomes readily available and easy to
dene (it's so easy to discover which colours mean which Traits when you
have honest characters in your party willing to share a likle personal
data with you, but it is much more dicult to accurately associate a
par^cular shade with an emoônal state or poli^cal belief, since these
are less easy to dene).
The detecôn, interpretaôn, and communicaôn of Auras has
become a major part of our game. If anybody is interested, I can e-mail
out a copy of our Aura Detecôn Chart and Brightness Chart, for their
perusal.

Sincerely,

Rob Wol
rwol@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 17:15:36 -0600
Subject: Heka thoughts


Heka use, heka abuse, and Heka Detecôn has always been a major
problem in our group. If you read the books about Setne Inhetep, it
appears that he is always re^cent about overusing his altogether amazing
abiliês as a heka slinger, mostly because he realizes that any use of
heka is like hanging a neon sign out for any prac^ôners in the
neighbourhood. So, towards that end, we've ins^gated a house rule for the
past two years which seems to work very well for us.
Any use of Heka brings with it a residual 'heka eld',
proporônal to the amount of heka used, which can be detected using
either the heka detecôn cas^ngs or the aura detecôn cas^ngs. This
heka eld begins to immediately degrade aver the heka is used, at a rate
of one point per minute, un^l it is completely dissapated.
Example: A character casts a grade III cas^ng, using vy points

of heka. This immediately sets up a residual heka eld that begins to
degrade, leaving only a 40 point eld in ten minutes, a 20 point eld
aver half an hour, and a one point eld aver 49 minutes.
What this does is signicantly increase the risk when using
personal-eect heka cas^ngs, as it leaves a detectable trace on you long
aver you've used the cas^ng. Trying to pass yourself o as a non-heka
slinger then means that you literally have to stop using all heka for the
duraôn of your disguise, as any prac^ôner who happens to be looking
your way with a detecôn cas^ng/device will immediately detect any
residual heka elds lev over.
This also works for triggered cas^ngs, as their eld has not yet
begun to dissapate, as well as readied cas^ngs. It is interes^ng to meet
somebody, and then discover a residual heka eld in excess of 100 points
slowly dissapa^ng around them. Makes for some interes^ng role-playing,
let me tell you!

Sincerely,

Rob Wol
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 17:15:44 -0600
Subject: DJ campaign (LONG)

[forward to MYTHUS-L via Doug (free@mcn.net), apologies for the length]

Our group has had an interes^ng ^me developing cross-genre
campaigns and the appropriate rules/u^liês to enable us to do
mul^-genre campaigns. Our group is composed of equal parts men and women,
so we get a nice intergender/intragender thing going on here. I just
thought that I'd give you a run-down on the sorts of campaigns we've run in
the last two years.
I. Arabian Campaign (six months)
We had a medeival arabic/fantasy campaign that akempted to ê
together the various legends about Solomon, The Chaining of the Djinn,
Solomon's Temple, The Freemasons, and numerology. We found that Journeys
lends itself well to this sort of cross-cultural campaign, in which
role-playing, puzzle solving, and cultural informaôn was always more
important than one's skill with a sword. The big contributor in this
campaign was a slave/bodyguard, who was the only person who took the ^me
to study ancient Arabic customs, and was thus not caught o guard by
things like using the improper hand to eat with, consuming Salt as a
guest-friend bond, and so on. As well, the threads of numerology, the
djinn, solomon, and the freemasons were rela^vely unknown by the players
at the beginning of the campaign, but not by the end.
II. Armageddon (four months)
That's right, we applied the style of the French game/Steve Jackson

game 'In Nomine', and did a campaign where the characters played out the
end of the world. We used the book of Revelaôns as our template, and had
the characters follow through a modern day end of the world. It seems that
both Sides have their own beliefs about who will win the nal bakle, as
well as both sides having their own versions of the book of Revelaôns
which shows which side will win. Since there are seven trumps to be blown,
the humans who had become paranoid enough about the sad state of aairs
these days dug up a way to stop the end of the world. You see, no maker
who wins Armageddon, the world is ended. Instead, the humans made it their
job to keep it a ê, and to have Heaven get three trumps, Hell get three
trumps, and the humans get one. In this way, Armageddon was postponed
another two thousand years. Made for a very interes^ng climax, let me
tell you.
III. Shadowrun
We've always enjoyed the dystopic vision of William Gibson, but
were a likle unwilling to give up elves, orcs, and magick... so Viola', we
adopted Shadowrun to our Journeys system. Along with this genre, we
developed the rules for rearms in such a way as to keep it balanced with
things like spells, thrown daggers and so on. (luckily, one of my friends
is a ring instructor and rearms bu who helped me keep the rules
simple, accurate, realis^c, and game-balanced). So, we had street samurai
armed with smartguns, mages armed with heka bolts, deckers armed with
character-trait favourite weapons of a katana, etc. It makes for
interes^ng gaming to see guns, swords, and spells all rolled into one.
Since then, we've increased the use of rearms in our campaigns... we
found this balanced system works quite nicely.
IV. Piracy (six months)
We decided to see how well Journeys took to the high seas. In our
campaign, muskets, int-locks, cutlasses, and thrown daggers were the
order of the day. However, borrowing liberally from "On Stranger Tides" by
Tim Powers, this campaign Heka use translated into various Voodoo
tradiôns, with a liberally downsized (1:5) heka use. Thus, characters
who would normally generate a thousand points of heka for their character
now found a measly 200 points of heka to use. This meant that most pirates
were suspicious and supers^ôus about those old legends about curses,
etc, as these magical references were some^mes woefully accurate!
As well, we developed a ship-to-ship combat system, as well as a
system for running large group bakles without detrac^ng from the game
playability. In this way, every character had a job on board ship.
Captain gave orders. First-Mate rolled seamanship ability to determine how
well the crew handled the riggings, enabling extra speed and
maneuverability when needed. Quartermaster allocated resources, and rolled
on Seamanship to see how well repairs could be done in the thick of bakle
by the repair crews he commanded. Pilot actually physically drove the
ship, as well as rolled on Pilo^ng skill to see how well they were
posiôned. Chief Gunner ^med all shots so that his roll on Combat,
rearms (Cannon) determined whether or not the ships were hit. We
borrowed a lot of our ship-to-ship stu from the rules for "Davy Jones
Locker", and found that dividing up the tasks in bakle made for a lot of
team-work and coopera^ve play.

Just a quick Note. The campaign into the south American Jungles to
raid the ancient Mayan temples and bring back the stolen spanish gold ended
quite strangely. The captain planned to murder the crew (by then they had
parleyed up to a ship with 80 crew members) so that he could split the gold
just between the ocers (player characters). It was interes^ng when the
Quartermaster arranged for a Mu^ny to be lead by the First Mate. The
result, the Captain was set adriv in a boat to perish on the high seas.
The player who had played the Captain now rolled up a new character (cabin
boy/ street thief), and the captain eventually came back as an arch-enemy
of the players. Anger, vengeance, betrayal, this campaign had it all.

V. The Big One (about a year)
Part One:
This campaign was our only true mul^-genre campaign. The players
started o in a fantasy world in which a war was breaking out between two
naôns. The players were akemp^ng to do a likle light smuggling along
the borders of the war, but were caught up by the underdog side. Instead
of killing the players, they were recruited to do a special inltraôn
mission into the enemy territory. The party was captured, stripped of all
goods, and sent to the main military prison in the heart of enemy
territory. Once there, they broke out and inltrated the nearby
castle/military headquarters, where they discovered the quarters of the
general who was leading the enemy's war.
Much to their surprise, however, they discovered that the enemy
general was not himself - literally. General Katarr had own the coop,
leaving a heka-engendered double in his place to run the show. By tearing
his room apart, the party discovered that Katarr was also a dabbler in the
black arts, sorcery, etc. Clearly Katarr's war was only a ruse, meant to
draw akenôn away from whatever Katarr was actually doing.
From this point on, the story unfolds as a familiar "Get the seven
objects of power made from the mys^cal Meteor that fell from the sky a
thousand years ago" type campaign. Each object had dierent abiliês,
and brought with it a dierent sort of responsibility. The party was
akem^ng to collect as many of these as possible, and to get back the
objects that Katarr had stolen. The score was êd at three objects for
the party, and three for Katarr.
The 'nal bakle' saw Katarr leading the party on a merry chase to
Tibet. When the party caught up with Katarr, he had made all preparaôns
for tapping into the en^tal heka that was available at the Dalai Lama's
Holy Temple. The nal object, it appeared, had been placed for safe
keeping in another world. The tradiônal "Stop the Evil Guy" type bakle
ensued. However, due to a couple of miscalculaôns on the part of the
party, Katarr did manage to open a dimensional riv to another world. He
jumped through, leaving the party to clean up the mess, explain the
situaôn, and get healed up. Then, with the Dalai Lama's Help and
Blessings, the party gave chase, forever leaving behind their beloved world
in order to stop the evil Katarr.
Part Two:
The party arrived in 21st century New York in a business high-rise
that had been taken over by terrorists (a'la Die Hard). The party spent
most of the rst night 'cuing up' about the fact that their characters
didn't understand what was happening, nor did they understand technology.
They spent lots of ^me talking to television sets, pressing elevator
bukons and so on. The one player even willingly put his character's life
in extreme jeapardy just for the sake of role-playing out his character's
confusion. Imagine a jungle shaman pressing the bukons on an elevator,
kneeling down to pray to the telepor^ng Gods who were moving the world
outside the magick door, and ducking the bullets that ew at him when the
door opened on the penthouse where the hostages were being kept. (the
character survived, and I gave the player a bonus for thorough
role-playing).
The party managed to use swords and knives to kill the terrorists,
and discovered that heka in this world didn't ow nearly as well as it did
back home. Everybody had their heka stores cut to a tenth of what they
were. Thus, the most powerful heka-slingers in the party only had about
150 points to play around with. On the Plus side, however, nobody in this
world really saw heka as a valid learning endeavour, and few if any
individuals posessed enough heka to ac^vate cas^ngs. The only way to get
enough heka together to get spells to work was through mul^ple person
cas^ng rituals, a'la Herme^c and Coven-type ritual cas^ngs. So rare was
it that any of these rituals worked that magick was a myth. This made for
a very useful 'surprise eect' whenever the party did resort to using
magick.
The party got their bearings in this world, and learned the ins and
outs of rearms. One Warrior, a female named Kyra, actually got
cyberne^c replacement arms to replace the ones that were trashed in the
rescue of the hostages. The party then began to research how magick had
evolved on this world, as well as akempted to locate Katarr.
The party also discovered a love for movies. This comes into play
later.
The party discovered the legends about a once magick-operaônal
city named Atlan^s, as well as a secret organizaôn known as the Lodge.
The Lodge used its ritual magick secretly to try to oset any evil in the
world. When the party demonstrated a much superior knowledge of magick,
and agreed to teach some of what they knew to the Lodge, the Lodge then
used its inuence to help the party. The Lodge had a member who was a
submarine commander in the Navy. The commander basically threw away his
career to get the party to the coordinates where they had determined
Atlan^s to be. The party discovered an underground, scien^cally
advanced city, with a computer uplink to a hidden orbital senênt
computer. The nal magickal object had teleported to this world, been
picked up by the Atlanteans, and had been used as an integral part in their
huge orbital computer satellite. The En^ty had been guarding this world
for two thousand years, and was set to follow the other Atlanteans to their
new o-planet home only when united with the other six magickal objects.
Katarr shows up at this point, and an hour-long
guns/sorcery/sword-play bakle ensues. The party leaves Katarr for dead
(without conrming kill... stupid... stupid...), takes the objects, and
teleports up to the orbi^ng space staôn. The staôn, united with the
other six magickal objects, now contains the power to open dimensional
portals. The party can either follow the staôn to New Atlan^s, or jump
through another portal in an akempt to get 'home'. The party agrees to
try a random portal, but at this moment, Katarr's bakerred and bleeding
body (he had a few tricks lev over from the Sorcery department) is seen
running through a dierent portal. The party can either go home, or
follow Katarr. Once again, they nobly give chase.
Part Three:
The party nds themselves on the planet Tatooine, and recognizes
that this world is dierent from the star-wars movies that they had come
to love (told you their love of movies would come in handy). In this
world, the jedi knights died out a thousand years ago, and everybody knew
that Anniken Skywalker (Luke's Father) was a great pilot who had died
bakle years ago. Darth Vader... no... he was the emperor's new right-hand
man... he'd just appeared a likle while ago, like you strangers did. He
was apparently wounded in some mighty bakle, and needed a mechanized suit
of armour to help him live.
Basically, Katarr had taken over the role of Darth Vader, and was
using his heka-abiliês to get in good with the Emperor. The party
discovered that the rebellion was losing, and that the Jedi Knights hadn't
existed for a millenium.
The Empire was on the lookout for a group of strangers ing the
party's descripôn, and the party was soon captured by the evil crim-lord
Jabba the Huk. Before the party could be ransomed to Vader/Katarr, the
party escaped and managed to nd its way to the Rebels.
In the re-ght, however, three of the party had died.
Therefore, those three players rolled up new star-wars based characters.
One was a ghter-pilot for the rebels, one was a smuggler who ew a
Corellian Transport named the 'century hawk', and the other was his
lizard-humanoid rst mate. I know it sounds hokey and bizarre, but this
campaign was geing good. The surviving two original characters were
Ronin (a mage) and Kyra (the warrior who had her limbs replaced
cyberne^cally). Kyra had long ago given up her modest (21) skill in Black
Dweomercraev, and had instead been concentra^ng on saving her soul from
her past evil acts through Mys^cism.
The party was told to inves^gate the legends about the lost "Jedi
Training Academy". The party landed on a planet rumoured to contain the
old Academy, and discovered an undue amount of Empire interest there as
well. They set o into the jungle, and discovered the old academy. At
the academy, Kyra interfaced with the old tes^ng programs, and her skills
as a warrior, her skills in Mys^cism (the primary Jedi Art) and her vow
never again to use Black Dweomercraev convinced the computer to give up
the locaôn of the REAL academy, which was on an a planet in the middle of
the War Zone.
The party fought its way to the war's Front, and then stepped out
in the middle of a bakle to inves^gate the appropriate planet. Once
there, Kyra was told by the 'ghost' of an old Jedi master what she must do
to become a full jedi. Two months training, as well as a Vow in Mys^cism,
and the promise to forego all weapons other than her light sabre allowed
her to represent the side of Good in the nal ght against the Dark Side.
About this ^me, the party emerged from its training/rest period to nd
an Imperial Star Destroyer in orbit. The 'century hawk' and their y-wing
escort ew out of there, and began their nal assault on the empire, as
well as Vader/Katarr.
Many adventures later, the party was captured by the empire. Kyra
goaded Katarr into a nal bakle, one on one, to enable the party to make
escape preparaôns. Kyra fully intended to lose the bakle, but thought
that the party could escape to ght another day. The nal combat took
over two hours to resolve, with everybody hemouraging Joss! Finally, with
both combatants Dazed and out of Joss, Kyra landed a cri^cal hit (No
Kidding, she rolled a two) and an ultra-vital shot (she rolled a four) to
decapitate Vader/Katarr and Really piss o the empire. Kyra laid down and
prepared to die, knowing that her soul had nally been saved from her
earlier, less-enlightened days when she had been a dabbler in evil
prac^ces.
At this ^me, the party showed up and helped Kyra escape. Aver
the celebraôn, Kyra and Ronin were approached by the quasi-mythical
Cross-Reality Corp.
The Cross-reality Corp, or X-RC, was an interdimensional policing
agency used to stop the interdimensional shinnanigans of any evildoers.
Basically, since Ronin and Kyra had survived this en^re campaign, three
dierent gaming genres, and by this ^me had skills up in the sevenês
(even though we use an exponenâlly increasingn training penalty for high
steep scores), they had caught the akenôn of this inter-dimensional
adventuring police corp. Ronin and Kyra decided to go join the XRC and
con^nue doing what they did best - encountering the unknown, learning new
skills, and xing what others had put wrong. The adventure ended with the
promoôn of all of the Star-wars based characters to new posiôns of rank
and authority in the new world, and Ronin and Kyra joining the XRC to go
and right wrongs across the mul^verse.
Okay, Okay, maybe it's a likle Hokey, but I've goka tell you, it
was a year of the best gaming I've ever had in my life. Bar None.

thanks for Listening... hope it hasn't been too boring.

Sincerely,
Rob Wol
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 19:27:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Help

>>>On the contrary, 75% STEEP for a two handed sword is not at all unusual
for a Warrior persona. Judiciously applied Enhanced STEEP combined with
specializaôn make a 76% or more STEEP in a sub-area extremely likely.
My own Cavalier started out with a 61+ STEEP in Combat, Hand Weapons and
a 91 STEEP in 1-Handed Swords.<<<

Are we talking STEEP, or BAC. Star^ng BACs for Cavaliers and Warriors in
excess of 100% are fairly simple. I changed the specializaôn bonus/penalty
to 20% to minimize the problem, but high 80s/mid 90s are s^ll possible.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 17:43:51 -0600
Subject: DJ Resources Available!


As a result of our many cross- genre gaming endeavours, my group has a
collecôn of interes^ng resources for the Journeys campaign.

1. A complete collecôn of Mythic Masters Magazines in Electronic Form
(which contains the HUGE weapons list and combat rules changes)
2. A 20th century rearms system, proporônal and balanced with the
damages of swords, knives, and spells.
3. A Star-Wars based weapons and armour system, proporônal and balanced
with the damages of swords, knives, and spells.
4. A Complete Virtual-Reality Computer Hacking system, whereby cyberpunk
computer deckers can inltrate and combat within enemy computer systems.
5. A few handy combat rules to modify and make more realis^c the combat
system, integra^ng the MMM 30-Beat CT system and the problems of Reach and
Weapon Damage, as well as more sub-areas for Weapons Special Skill to allow
for disarming, theatrical combat, and so on.
6. A mul^-genre capable K/S system, adapted from MMM and other sources,
so that people can roll up characters in dierent genres, tech levels, and
so on.
7. A Microsov Excel spreadsheet which allows you to generate and update
characters using the Mul^-Genre k/s system, as well as calculate all Heka
scores, eect and wound levels, as well as automa^cally calculate and
update K/S CROSS-FEEDING!!! (It's just like Christmas when the computer
tells you that a skill you've forgoken to maintain has gone up another
point)

Are any of these of interest to people?

Sincerely,

Rob Wol
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 19:51:45 -0500

From: Malcolm Carter <malcolmc@RAMLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: DJ Resources Available!

At 05:43 PM 11/18/96 -0600, you wrote:
>
>Are any of these of interest to people?
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Rob Wol
>rwol@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca

Sure. Where are they at?

\\| J.R. Carter
_---_ / @\\-_ email: malcolmc@ramlink.net
__ / _ \ / \ Hun^ngton, West Virginia
\\ / / \ \ \ \ USA
--------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 19:46:17 -0600
From: Robert Wright <rwright@UMR.EDU>
Subject: Re: Help

>>>>On the contrary, 75% STEEP for a two handed sword is not at all unusual
>for a Warrior persona. Judiciously applied Enhanced STEEP combined with
>specializaôn make a 76% or more STEEP in a sub-area extremely likely.
>My own Cavalier started out with a 61+ STEEP in Combat, Hand Weapons and
>a 91 STEEP in 1-Handed Swords.<<<
>
>
>Are we talking STEEP, or BAC. Star^ng BACs for Cavaliers and Warriors in
>excess of 100% are fairly simple. I changed the specializaôn bonus/penalty
>to 20% to minimize the problem, but high 80s/mid 90s are s^ll possible.
>

No he is talking STEEP. The campaign we are in has:
1. Malcolm's Kelevalan Cavalier with at least a 110+ BAC, 50+ STEEP
in various Weapon Special Skills and has trained up to a 61 STEEP in
D'craev and Majick
2. A Full Prac^ce Spellsinger (variant full prac rules) with
currently a STEEP of 85+ in music, poetry/lyrics and spellsongs.
3. A Full Prac^ce Norse Priestcraev/D'craever with 61+ in
D'craev, priestcrav and mys^cism.
4. A Full Prac^ce Ex-Black D'craever with 60+ in White, Black and
Grey and 30+ in the other d'craevs.

5. A character with amenenisia (we think assassin) with well over
60+ in many combat and assassin type areas.
6. My own, Karl, the sage with 50+ in combat, history, pharee,
mul^versal and elemental d'craev and way too much in the 40+ range.

Oh and everyone has a couple of very nice magick items. Though we had to
sell the Gloves of Impact Damage. We needed way too much in expensive gems.

Remember this is a prophecy campaign. We have to get this high the GM needs
this much to have us fulll the prophecy. Believe me we are worried.

Check it out at hkp://www.umr.edu/~mhill. Most of the characters are linked
from there.

Rob Wright
From the College that Lazurus Long's Pop went to and
Alexander Hergensheimer failed out of -- IT'S

Robert G. Wright <rwright@umr.edu>

RolePlayer/SpaceFana^c/NeophyteFan/ComputerEnthusiast/Squirrel/AllAroundWeirdo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 20:22:55 -0800
X-cc: rwol@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca

At 05:43 PM 11/18/96 -0600, Douglas Noonan wrote:
>[forward to MYTHUS-L via Doug (free@mcn.net)]
>
>As a result of our many cross- genre gaming endeavours, my group has a
>collecôn of interes^ng resources for the Journeys campaign.
>
>1. A complete collecôn of Mythic Masters Magazines in Electronic Form
>(which contains the HUGE weapons list and combat rules changes)
>2. A 20th century rearms system, proporônal and balanced with the
>damages of swords, knives, and spells.
>3. A Star-Wars based weapons and armour system, proporônal and balanced
>with the damages of swords, knives, and spells.
>4. A Complete Virtual-Reality Computer Hacking system, whereby cyberpunk
>computer deckers can inltrate and combat within enemy computer systems.
>5. A few handy combat rules to modify and make more realis^c the combat
>system, integra^ng the MMM 30-Beat CT system and the problems of Reach and
>Weapon Damage, as well as more sub-areas for Weapons Special Skill to allow
>for disarming, theatrical combat, and so on.
>6. A mul^-genre capable K/S system, adapted from MMM and other sources,
>so that people can roll up characters in dierent genres, tech levels, and
>so on.
>7. A Microsov Excel spreadsheet which allows you to generate and update
>characters using the Mul^-Genre k/s system, as well as calculate all Heka
>scores, eect and wound levels, as well as automa^cally calculate and
>update K/S CROSS-FEEDING!!! (It's just like Christmas when the computer
>tells you that a skill you've forgoken to maintain has gone up another
>point)
>
>Are any of these of interest to people?
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Rob Wol
>rwol@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca

Sorry to relist all. But, are you serious? Geez!!! Bring it on!

Todd South
-<tsouth@inetworld.net> Obsessives Compulsives Unit! (tm)
GURPS Net Librams - hkp://www.inetworld.net/~tsouth/gurps/librams.html
GURPS WebWorlds Site - hkp://www.inetworld.net/~tsouth/gurps/webworlds.html
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 01:49:07 EST

>>Are any of these of interest to people?<<

extremely.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 01:49:07 EST
Subject: Re: Help

>>>Those warriors are pud. They barely know how to swing a sword, much
less
use one with skill. 35-40 STEEP in a weapon is barely the level of a
professional veteran soldier. HP's should be much more than that.<<<

So, what you're saying is that a BEGINNING Persona should have a 41 STEEP
or beker (making him a Full master in a chosen eld at age, what 25?)
in Combat hand weapons, if said persona is a warrior?

Why, then, shouldn't a Dweomercraever have a 60 -70 STEEp in his chosen
eld of exper^se? And futhermore Who the hell is going to be the
antagonists or EPs, for this party of Super Heros? What do these guys
have to look forward to? Puing their APs in Sculpture?
Just by being HPs they are a cut above the rest....10-20 for akributes
*when the normal rabble gets between 8-12 average, and the fact that any
HP, with appropriate K/S areas can u^lize heka for cas^ngs.....not
many normal people can do that..................

But hey,
at least you're actually playing Mythus, do it how you want to, and don't
let T$R bring you down!
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 12:14:55 +0200
Subject: Re: Help
In-Reply-To: <199611182037.OAA20338@homebrew.pinenet.com> from "Randy Sivigny"
at Nov 18, 96 03:46:01 am

> I have a few quesôns of all of you. Are warriors preky tough
> right of the bat? It seems when they are walking around with 75%
> weapons skill dealing out 6d6 for a two handed sword that's tough.
> Are mages as tough? Someone give me some ideas about toning down my
> campaigns. It is like I have to through tough stu to challenge.
> Also one other thing and I'll shut up. If a character has only say
> herbalsim with no magick skill at all can they s^ll cast spells and

IIRC, Magick is mandatory only for Dweomecraev, as Religion is
mandatory on for Priestcraev. Otherwise all magical skills (ie.
Heka-Forging, Spellsongs and all those Spiritual skills with spells (with
above exclusion, religion-priestcraev) won't need magic at all. If you
possess skill with spells, and your Referee (GM, JM, what ever) let you
have spells it includes, you can cast them :)

Kautsu
Pyydysmaenê 19
20660 LITTOINEN
FINLAND
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 12:40:33 +0200
In-Reply-To: <199611182246.QAA22304@rocket.cc.umr.edu> from "Malcolm Hays" at

Nov 18, 96 04:46:32 pm

> >
> > How much does everybody charge for the iniâl purchace of Cas^ngs
> > Tomes?
> > Obviously it would depend on the number of cas^ngs contained
> > therein.......

> We have always assumed that the iniâl Tomes an HP starts with are a
> part of the HP and therefore are "free." Otherwise, the general expense
> of a Tome with Cas^ngs is quite exhorbitant and a basic SEC 5
> Dweomercraever would probably be unable to aord all of his Tomes with
> his Net Worth. As for buying subsequent Tomes, our rule is that the

Why should he buy those tomes, unless he is either Full
Prac^ôner or has _many_ spell-cas^ng K/S areas. Most of characters I
create won't need tome, 'cause they remember all of their spells in their
minds. If your known+recallable slots are used up, you must either discard
some of your star^ng spells or use your STEEP for those tomes. (And there
always is smaller and _cheaper_ mini-tomes. (Not as economic, but if you
ain't got money, it's all you can aord...)

> blank Tome is basically a high quality book of around 1000 BUCs or so in
> value. Somewhere in the manuals there is a price for a blank book. The

It is in Mythus Magic, within descripôn of dirent types of
spells (SPELLS, etc), or somewhere near. On lev page, aside
black-and-white picture on scroll-like background. (I can always recall
_incorrectly_, of course, but I've dozen ^mes searched that page and
not found it in less than 10 minutes...)

> Cas^ngs one wishes to inscribe in a new Tome are assigned a value based
> on Grade and availability of the Cas^ng. Sorcery Cas^ngs are generally
> very hard to get a hold of as are Black Dweomercraev and Necromancy.
> White, Green Dweomercraev, Herbalism, Fortune-Telling, and so on are
> fairly easy. Heka-Forging and Alchemy are generally the most expensive,
> as those are considered to be "trade secrets."

I think all dweomecrav spells, aside Dweomecrav-Green, should be
trade-secrets, or why those schools are s^ll around here? I always think
Green Dweomecrav as cas^ng area of rural, non-educated, mages,
witch-women(of course these aren't those _evil_ witches, just some weird
women who has got up from society and decided to live for nature only).
Elementalist should have some kind of guild to prevent _uncontrolled_ use
of those really destruc^ve spells, white spells should be reserved to
some kind of religious/philosocal organizaôns due their nature (only
people with certain frame of mind would have willpower to learn the
dicult principles and frame-of-mind needed).
I think grey dweomecraev, aside with general dweomecrav, is most
common, but schools of magic will control which spells are taught. I think
most low-grade spells are taught only to high-grade personae for their
powerfulness. And almost all guilds has general-dweomecravers whom they
train by themself to prevent leaks of trade-secrets. (In descripôn of
General Dweomecrav, in Mythus Magick, it says most trades has their own
spells, from grade I to III. I think those spells are _trade-secrets_).

I've always thought Heka-Forging as special, EXTREMELY RARE, K/S
Area, almost as rare as, or even rarer than, Necromancy or Sorcery. I
think it was reserved for Phaeree-spellcaster due its power, and all those
Heka-Forgers would to all they can to prevent _unworthy_ people to learn
it.

Kautsu
Pyydysmaenê 19
20660 LITTOINEN
FINLAND
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 12:56:15 +0200
Subject: Re: DJ campaign (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <v0151010faeb69e105ccc@[205.163.40.49]> from "Douglas Noonan" at
Nov 18, 96 05:15:44 pm

> thanks for Listening... hope it hasn't been too boring.

No, it was very amusing and recrea^ng. I'd like to see all those
customized rules about rearms etc. you used in those campaigns. They
would be quite intres^ng, esspecially, if you've created rearm-rules
with aid of expert (I don't have access for such great source of
informaôn, so I'll envy you...)

Kautsu
Pyydysmaenê 19
20660 LITTOINEN
FINLAND
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 12:59:38 +0200
Subject: Specializaôn

The descripôn of specializaôn is quite obscure, to me at
least. When you start with specialized character, there's no probles, but
how you handle increasing of STEEP in specialized K/S area or situaôn
where one of your players want to specialize during campaign, not before
it. (Rules didn't discuss lot about those situaôns, or were really
confusing)...

Kautsu
Pyydysmaenê 19
20660 LITTOINEN
FINLAND
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 22:45:05 +1100
Subject: Re: Help

At 03:46 AM 11/18/96 +0000, you wrote:
>I have a few quesôns of all of you. Are warriors preky tough
>right of the bat? It seems when they are walking around with 75%
>weapons skill dealing out 6d6 for a two handed sword that's tough.

Not sure what you are geing at here ie tough as compared to normal non
HP's or as compared to other Vocaôns ie Heka benders?

If you mean non HP's then I'd say reasonably tough. I imagine that your 75%
is specialised so as soon as he loses his two hander (which would happen in
my game at the rst oppertunity) his advantage disapears rapidly. Oh no
your weapons been stolen/damaged but you pick up a dead'ns short sword,
what! you are only 25% in that! What a shame.....

If you mean Heka benders, well most of them aren't slouches at combat
weapons but they also have to use their bean, keep away from combat, have
some mates close by that are good with their weapons, bring the odds down
with some mental akack or Elementals or Gloomcloud or Heka shield or
Sanctum or Trigger Eect. Anything but don't ght him/her yourself,
oukhink him/her.

>Are mages as tough? Someone give me some ideas about toning down my
>campaigns. It is like I have to through tough stu to challenge.
>Also one other thing and I'll shut up. If a character has only say
>herbalsim with no magick skill at all can they s^ll cast spells and
>how many? Thanks

>Randy
>

Yes, Herbalism spells, it depends on their KS ra^ng but their Heka levels
may limit them.

Brian
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 22:47:05 +1100

At 04:46 PM 11/18/96 -0600, you wrote:
>>
>> How much does everybody charge for the iniâl purchace of Cas^ngs
>> Tomes?
>> Obviously it would depend on the number of cas^ngs contained
>> therein.......
>
>We have always assumed that the iniâl Tomes an HP starts with are a
>part of the HP and therefore are "free."

The MM book states on page 30 that the iniâl tomes are provided for each
Heka producing area or school. It also goes on to cost the addiônal tomes
(empty) and cas^ngs.

We have assumed that these cas^ng costs are iniâl and once the HP enters
the game that they must Beg Borrow or steal subsequent cas^ngs. We also
have a calculaôn of cost of scribing cas^ngs into the tome based on
length and level of the cas^ng and skill at scribing.

These last bits are of course "House Rules" and you cand make up your own mind.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 09:04:47 -0800
From: Taylor Walston <viper@DFWMM.NET>
Subject: Re: Heka thoughts

> Trying to pass yourself o as a non-heka
> slinger then means that you literally have to stop using all heka for the
> duraôn of your disguise, as any prac^ôner who happens to be looking
> your way with a detecôn cas^ng/device will immediately detect any
> residual heka elds lev over.
> This also works for triggered cas^ngs, as their eld has not yet
> begun to dissapate, as well as readied cas^ngs. It is interes^ng to meet
> somebody, and then discover a residual heka eld in excess of 100 points
> slowly dissapa^ng around them. Makes for some interes^ng role-playing,
> let me tell you!
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Rob Wol
> rwol@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca

So how does this work with Heka engendered disguises? In the books,
Setne uses magical disguises several ^mes and is able to fool/evade
other prac^ôners. Just curious
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 09:38:20 -0800
Subject: Re: Specializaôn

Ani Kauâinen wrote:
>
> The descripôn of specializaôn is quite obscure, to me at
> least. When you start with specialized character, there's no probles, but
> how you handle increasing of STEEP in specialized K/S area or situaôn
> where one of your players want to specialize during campaign, not before
> it. (Rules didn't discuss lot about those situaôns, or were really
> confusing)...
>
> Kautsu
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------> Ani Kauâinen Student of computer science at University of Turku
> Pyydysmaenê 19
> 20660 LITTOINEN
> FINLAND
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------I am at work so I do not have the rules at hand. I beleive that
increasing an exis^ng specializaôn should not pose a problem. The
skill STEEP ra^ng will increase normally. I.E. you are not increasing
the specialized 60 in 1 hand sword, you are increasing the 40 in Combat
Hand Weapon. The rules also cover how to proof subskills as STEEP
increases.

As for specializing a character aver he has developed the skill, I
would put a horrendous ^me requirement on him/her. To achieve
specializaôn you have to work with something un^l you know it
intui^vely. Make the character devote all of his akenôn to that
subskill for a long ^me. Maybe even force them to spend APs to equal
the change in skill. For example if you wanted to take your 40 STEEP in
hand weapons and specialize in 1 hand swords. The 1 hand sword steep
will eec^vely increase 20 points. Force the character to spend AP's
gained from using that subskill to earn 20 STEEP points before you will
make the specializaôn eec^ve. This should take a moderate amount
of ^me and make the player appreciate what specializaôn really is.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 10:10:02 -0600
X-cc: rwol@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca
In-Reply-To: <v01510111aeb6a3178b38@[205.163.40.49]> from "Douglas Noonan" at
Nov 18, 96 05:43:51 pm

> [forward to MYTHUS-L via Doug (free@mcn.net)]
>
> As a result of our many cross- genre gaming endeavours, my group has a
> collecôn of interes^ng resources for the Journeys campaign.
>
> 1. A complete collecôn of Mythic Masters Magazines in Electronic Form
> (which contains the HUGE weapons list and combat rules changes)

You would not believe what lengths the "have-nots" would go to procure
these near mythical magazines.

Of course I want a copy! Of all of them! You will have my eternal
gra^tude.

> 2. A 20th century rearms system, proporônal and balanced with the
> damages of swords, knives, and spells.

I've been through this before. :)

I'm also very interested in the ship-to-ship combat system and the
medium to large scale combat system you came up with. In about 3
weeks my game is about to have a bakle with some 2-300 par^cipants
on each side.

Thanks,
Dan.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 12:27:33 -0500
Subject: Re: DJ: TSR selling at discount prices?

>I heard from Mike J. Weaver that TSR was selling o DJ stock for a
>discount. I was wondering if anyone had any further info on how I could
>possibly order some. My books have begun to fall apart and I have lost
>some page and need to get replacements.

This was not TSR doing that, it was me. The sales dept was closing out
the remaining available merchantdise from the Mail Order Hobby Shop at
a discount to TSR sta. As there was some Mythus stu available, I
asked the list if anyone was interested in paying me back for purchasing
various DJ products for them. About seven people took me up on it.

This was just me doing something nice for the listmembers. The oer is
now closed, as they were only selling that stu for a period of four or
ve days last month and it's no longer available.

- Sean
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 11:58:00 -0600
Subject: Update

1994 logs should be done in a couple of weeks. I'm going to condense
every year and then go through them with a ne tooth comb and arrange
them into catagories based on topic. I think that'll be a good place to
start with a "Mythus How-To Guide".

Wayne
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 14:08:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Help

<< If you mean non HP's then I'd say reasonably tough. I imagine that your
75%
is specialised so as soon as he loses his two hander (which would happen in
my game at the rst oppertunity) his advantage disapears rapidly. >>

This situaôn is always an issue, and not just for weapons. And its a lot
of fun to watch people deal with items/skills etc. that are not personal
favorites. However, (and this is a big however) IMNSHO if you are
deliberately seeking to separate personas from these items based on your JM
knowledge, it is not good JMing. I take absolute delight in confusing,
confounding, etc. players and personas; but your comment implies a mind set
where I'd far rather tell the player " your characters skills are excessive
for my campaign, what else have you got" then try to bend the persona to my
liking.

If its occasional and makes sense, ne. If not, why bother.

Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 00:37:01 -0500
From: Andrew Hagen <ah@RRNET.COM>
Subject: for sale: Mythus books
In-Reply-To: <199611200503.AAA19868@listserv.brown.edu>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----
I have some Mythus/ Dangerous Journeys stu for sale.

It's all in Good condiôn. I"d like to sell it all at once. Asking
price is $85. I'll pay for express delivery (2-3 days). Please e-mail
me at ah@rrnet.com if interested.

books:

Mythus
Mythus Prime
Epic of Aerth
Mythus Magick
Mythus Besâry

magazines: (These have some Mythus ar^cles and some other ar^cles.
Each is 48 pages.)

Journeys 3
Journeys 6

It's a great game. I just need the cash. Thanks.

Andrew
- -Andrew Hagen, a member of the internaônal community
mailto:ah@rrnet.com PGP Key ID: E4A58DB
hkp://rrnet.com/~ah/ I speak only for myself.

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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 00:27:45 +0000
Comments: Authen^cated sender is <rwol@pop.srv.ualberta.ca>
From: Robert Wol <rwol@MAILDROP.SRV.UALBERTA.CA>

This is a test post aver I've changed some seings... maybe this
one will get through... wish me luck... let me know if anybody sees
this, okay?
Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

rwol@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 23:32:37 -0800
In-Reply-To: <199611200728.AAA39748@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca>

On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Robert Wol wrote:

> This is a test post aver I've changed some seings... maybe this
> one will get through... wish me luck... let me know if anybody sees
> this, okay?
> Sincerely,
>
> Bodhi / Rob Wol
>
> rwol@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca
>
It works!

Kevin
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 01:32:21 -0600
Reply-To: waynelw@ix.netcom.com
From: Wayne Westphalen <waynelw@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Robert Wol wrote:
>
> This is a test post aver I've changed some seings... maybe this
> one will get through... wish me luck... let me know if anybody sees
> this, okay?
> Sincerely,
>
> Bodhi / Rob Wol
>

You bet...I can see it just ne. Congratulaôns!! You're not up and
running with the mailing list devoted to the coolest fantasy RPG of all
^mes.

Wayne Westphalen
Omaha, NE

waynelw@ix.netcom.com
or
F8SWARNG1@AOL.COM
or
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 01:01:44 +0000
Subject: test post

test post
can anybody see this.
For that maker, can I see this?
Sorry for the inconvenience.
Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 01:14:55 +0000
Subject: A Web Page

I am trying to write up a quick-and-dirty web page for Journeys
stu. However, it won't be up un^l the weekend, as I have no ^me
between my work and marking student's assignments. Any other
post-secondary students know that this is our busiest ^me of the
year. Therefore, please be paênt with me... like you've been
paênt with me so far.

The address should be HTTP://www.ualberta.ca/~rwol/dj1.htm

Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 01:14:55 +0000
Subject: I AM FINALLY HERE!!!!

It appears that all of my troubles are nally over.
For any of you that were interested, the problem lay in the way my
university allocates dierent addresses for dierent purposes.
Never mind... it works now.

As For Mythis Masters Magazines
I am an academic, and I publish my own work. As such, I am a rm
believer in copyright laws. I didn't know that MMM was now owned by
TSR. I was under the impression that it was public domain
informaôn. Since I cannot legally, nor morally, submit this
informaôn to the list-serv, you will have to forgive my not
answering requests for this informaôn. My oer was,
unfortunately, made with the best intenôns, but not with the best
informaôn.

Finally, I would like to thank Mike and Doug for their help in
geing this thing working. Their input helped me isolate the
problem, as well as get some idea as to whether or not people were
interested in the stu I had.

Thanks again.
Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 01:14:55 +0000
Subject: Heka-detecôn

I submiked my group's take on heka detecôn the other day (through
the ines^mable help of Doug Noonan...), but received a couple of
quesôns about our 'residual heka elds' and whether or not they
were detectable when created by 'disguise formulae' and the like. In
our group, any heka that is currently in use, currently stored, or
wai^ng to be used is all detectable through any heka-detecôn
cas^ng or as a residual trace colour in the person's aura.

Therefore, YES, any magical cas^ng is immediately detectable through
a detecôn cas^ng. That means that, although your magickal
disguise makes you look like a beggar, any prac^ôner with an
ACTIVE DETECTION MECHANISM will know that you are radia^ng heka.
Likewise, any triggerred cas^ng oats around you, 'hanging just o
your shoulder' as it were, and is detectable as well. The magickal
energies in triggered cas^ngs, as well as readied cas^ngs, have
already been spent by the prac^ôner, and are just hanging around
wai^ng for the nal conduit to push them into place.

While this may distress some players, remember that most
prac^ôners don't walk around constantly on the lookout for
magickal energy. It is dicult to maintain such cas^ngs for
prolonged periods of ^me. All this does, in terms of game balance,
is make sure that players who can employ magickal abiliês do not
abuse their powers.

Another comfor^ng by-product of this sort of treatment of Heka
slinging is that people come to rely more on inherent abiliês
rather than magickally-akained skill. In other words, thiefs who
can pick locks aren't constantly being out-done by prac^ôners with
Lockopen, etc.

Just some quick thoughts for you to ponder on...

Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:21:48 +0200
Subject: Re: Help
Stainton" at Nov 19, 96 01:49:07 am

> Why, then, shouldn't a Dweomercraever have a 60 -70 STEEp in his chosen
> eld of exper^se? And futhermore Who the hell is going to be the
> antagonists or EPs, for this party of Super Heros? What do these guys
> have to look forward to? Puing their APs in Sculpture?
> Just by being HPs they are a cut above the rest....10-20 for akributes
> *when the normal rabble gets between 8-12 average, and the fact that any
> HP, with appropriate K/S areas can u^lize heka for cas^ngs.....not
> many normal people can do that..................

Sorry, if I don't understand this, but how dweomecraver can have
star^ng STEEP 60-70. Maximum Akribute for starters is 20 +- 3, usually
0, and you _can't_ specialize in Dweomecraev, Dweomecraev sub-skills are
special case, they are considered separate skills, or that is how I
intepret those special rules of them.

Kautsu
Pyydysmaenê 19
20660 LITTOINEN
FINLAND
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:29:38 +0200
Subject: Re: Specializaôn
In-Reply-To: <3291F08C.7230@dfwmm.net> from "Taylor Walston" at Nov 19,
96 09:38:20 am

> gained from using that subskill to earn 20 STEEP points before you will
> make the specializaôn eec^ve. This should take a moderate amount
> of ^me and make the player appreciate what specializaôn really is.

Does that mean, they will retain STEEP-levels of all subareas as
they are now. If that's the case, then it'll make some sense, but I asked
how you intepret those obscure rules how handle AP/G-use in already
specialized K/S Areas. IIRC, there's at least 2 noôns of this, and both
are dierent... And I think whole cost of increase is too much, 'cause
all those players won't specialize, but spent those APs to increase _all_
subareas. I think cost to increase K/S Area to wanted level divided by
number of subareas, rounding up.

Kautsu
Pyydysmaenê 19
20660 LITTOINEN
FINLAND
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:38:06 +0200

Subject: Re: Heka-detecôn
In-Reply-To: <199611200815.BAA78076@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca> from "Robert
Wol" at Nov 20, 96 01:14:55 am

> ACTIVE DETECTION MECHANISM will know that you are radia^ng heka.
> Likewise, any triggerred cas^ng oats around you, 'hanging just o
> your shoulder' as it were, and is detectable as well. The magickal
> energies in triggered cas^ngs, as well as readied cas^ngs, have
> already been spent by the prac^ôner, and are just hanging around
> wai^ng for the nal conduit to push them into place.

IIRC, all those heka-detec^ng spells has some kind of _opposed_
roll to see, if they detect anything at all. (IIRC, the level of spell and
skill of caster were considered as _nega^ve_ modiers, at least if they
were greater than Heka-Detec^ng cas^ng or skill of prac^ôner using
it.) And as I remember Setne was _really_ powerful prac^ôner, so he
he won't need to bother about _ordinary_ prac^ôners. He was afraid of
_other_ prac^ôners with _equal_ level of power than him, not ones with
lower...

> Another comfor^ng by-product of this sort of treatment of Heka
> slinging is that people come to rely more on inherent abiliês
> rather than magickally-akained skill. In other words, thiefs who
> can pick locks aren't constantly being out-done by prac^ôners with
> Lockopen, etc.

This makes sense: You can use magical help, but they'll have some
drawback to more dicult way, learning all those skills you ackquire via
cas^ngs. This balances gap between non-hekausers and heka-users.

Kautsu
Pyydysmaenê 19
20660 LITTOINEN
FINLAND
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 01:49:15 +0000
Subject: AURA CHART

Well, this should be the rst of a couple of pos^ngs.

Dierent colours belong to dierent character traits. However, I
tend to switch which par^cular shade applies to which par^cular

shade from game to game, just to keep my players honest. In this
way, we spend much of the rst few weeks guring out just how to
read auras... and you NEVER get to really gure out some of the
complex shades for Beliefs, Goals, etc.

The rst auras to be generated come directly from the player's
sta^s^cs. They are generated as followed...

Mental Physical Spiritual
Mind Yellow Body Green Soul/Character Blue
MMCap Bu PMCap Jade SMCap Cobalt
MMPow Cream PMPow Olive SMPow Sky
MMSpd Saron PMSpd Emerald SMSpd Aqua
MRCap Amber PNCap Malachite SPCap Sapphire
MRPow Tawny PNPow Moss SPPow Azure
MRSpd Chartreuse PNSpd Verdigris SPSpd Pale Blue

Thus, all the yellows indicate the Mind akributes, the Greens
represent Body akributes, and so on.

Next, generate colours from emoôns. These are highly exible, and
will change as one's emoônal state goes through ux.

Emoôns Red
Sorrow/Joy Crimson
Horror/Peace Rose
Desire/Content Ruby
Despair/Hope Maroon
Hate/Joy Scarlet
Pain/Health Fuschia
Rage/Serenity Carmine

One's long-term beliefs cause changes in the Indigo colours...

Beliefs Indigo
Malign/Benign Magenta
Uncertainty/Determinaôn Lavender
Chaos/Order Lake
Liberal/Conserva^ve Woad
Anarchist/Controllist Mauve
Suspicious/Gullible Lilac
Spontaneous/Iron-Willed Puce

A persona's direcôn in life, and their basic life-style, generate
colours in the orange categories...

Direcôn Orange
Adventure Copper
Challenge Carrot
Travel Topaz
Status/Power Flame
Knowledge Coral
Art Brass
Entertainment Sulphur
Libido Apricot
Sensuality Deep Orange
Ego Rust

Hey... let's not forget ETHOS!!! that's the most important aura for
intelligent people... isn't it nice to get a glimpse at someone's
soul...

Ethos Black/White
Agnos^c/Unbeliever Jet Black
Witchcraev Ebony
Gloomy Darkness Soot Black
Shadowy Darkness Blue-Black
Elemental Milk
Balance Oyster
Nature Bone
Moonlight Ivory
Sunlight Pearl
Other Crystalline

Finally, places with a general condiôn can also generate auras if
that condiôn is very strong. Gray/Brown colours in a place's aura
will indicate the general condiôn... (it's so cute when players
nd out that the evil temple is powerful enough to generate auras of
danger and death... usually from recent human sacrices.)

Condiôn Gray/Brown
Danger/Safety Steel
Death/Vitality Smoke
Sickness/Health Charcoal
Weakness/Strength Silver

Heka, as well, generates a strong aura...

Heka Violet
Pret. Mental Amethyst
Pret. Physical Red-Black
Pret. Spiritual Deep Purple
Pret. Crystal Black
Pret. Vegetable Plum
Pret. Natural Purple
Supernatural Iron
En^tal Sable

Now, the most important part. The brightness of a par^cular shade
comes from the level of an akribute, or the strength of a belief, or
the dedicaôn to an Ethos, and so on... The Brightness chart is by
far the most important part. It doesn't maker which colours are
showing in your aura... the most important thing is how bright they
are, and which colours overshadow which others...

Assigning Brightness
Dim Flat Dull Bright Shining Brilliant
Trait 1-5 6-10 11-15 16-20 21-30 31+
Ego Self-Eacing Asser^ve
Temperment Cold Fiery
Poli^cs None Anarchist
Beliefs Mutable Dogma^c
Libido Unresponsive Fervid
Sensuality Aesthe^c Hedonis^c
Apprehension Suspicious Gullible
Self-Control Spontaneous Iron-Willed
Personality Sober Crazy
Conformity Conformist Insane
Heka 1-400 401-800 801-1200 1201-1600 1601-2000 2001+

Just remember... the brighter the colour, the stronger that
par^cular character trait is.

You will no^ce that I stole many of the dierenâ^ng
characteris^cs from the personality generaôn tables, and from
other sources. This makes it easy to quickly determine the auras for
HP's, OP's, and so on, because you can use the characteris^cs
generated to determine aura colour and brightness.

Players' explanaôns...
Example of a rst-^me use.

I read my sage friend's aura. He tells me that he has unexcepônal
stats, except for his MMCap and PMCap which happen to be 20's. I
no^ce that one par^cular shade of yellow (BUFF) and one par^cular
shade of Green (Jade) generate "bright" colours, but not intense
enough to be called "shining". Therefore, I can assume that Bu is
generated by MMCap and Jade is generated by PMCap.

My friend claims to have an ethos of balance, but he is not very
dedicated to his claims. I no^ce that the only black/white colour
he generates is a "at" oyster shade. I'm fairly sure that Oyster
represents BALANCE ethos.

Over the course of a few months, I begin to no^ce that my friend is
extremely fascinated with the quest for knowledge. As an aura
reader, I know that knowledge is one of the things that can fascinate
people so much that it generates its own par^cular aura colour in

the orange range. I no^ce that he has always had a "shining" coral
colour in his aura. I'm fairly sure that his strong interest in
KNOWLEDGE has generated an orange colour of the par^cular shade
Coral.

As ^me passes, and I accurately interpret all the auras I read, I
can now tell the rest of my party fairly detailed informaôn about
people at 'rst glance'. However, players should be cauôus. If
you make innacurate conclusions about which shades represent which
colours, you really are in a mess. Take it slow, and always remember
to test your colour assumpôns. Also, some people are unwilling to
tell you their true intenôns... make sure that the informaôn you
base your assumpôns on is accurate. JM's LOVE IT when a player
thinks that their new-found companion's aura indicates a kind-hearted
soul, when in fact he is an assassin wai^ng for the moment to
strike.

On the other hand... It's so nice to know when someobody is
genera^ng a nice, low-grade eld of malevolence towards you. It
puts you on your guard for their future akack. When auras are read
accurately, they denitely are to your advantage, and well worth the
^me you put in.
Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 01:53:35 +0000
Subject: Re: Heka-detecôn

Yes, you're right...
In our game, we use an opposed skill test to see if you can 'hide'
your heka eld from other prac^ôners. Really skilled
prac^ôners can hide the eld they generate from lower-skilled
prac^ôners.

However, once a spell goes o, it is there for all to see. Thus, a
spell that enables you to y through the air leaves a "contrail" of
heka detectable to even the most minor prac^ôner, so long as they
have a heka detecôn cas^ng opera^ng.
Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 01:59:27 +0000
Subject: aura chart poor formaing

I'd like to apologize. I thought that the formaing on the aura
chart post that I did would hold true. Unfortunately, it did not. I
hope this doesn't cause too much of an inconvenience...
Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 02:38:58 +0000
Subject: Combat Rules Suggesôns

Weapons - special Skill Rules
New Sub-Areas

Disarming
Disarming is normally possible only if it is a specied property of
the weapon being used. However, if a character possesses the Weapon
Special Skill sub-area of Disarming, they may make a roll against
their Disarming skill to give them a chance to disarm an opponent.
However, there are some restricôns. The weapon being used to
disarm must be equal to short-sword length or greater, and of course
must be a weapon that the character has specied under their
weapons-special skill training. Example: Kyla wishes to disarm her
opponent during a sword ght. She makes a normal roll to hit
against her combat hand-weapons, and then makes a weapon-special
skill - disarming roll at a DR of "Dicult" to see if she makes a
successful disarm maneuver. If she succeeds, then she undergoes a
contested Combat-Hand weapons roll against her opponent to see if the
opponent loses his/her weapon. If she wins the contest, the opponent
loses their weapon: if she loses the contest, the opponent keeps
their weapon, and may ght as normal.

Missile Deecôn (reserved for Jedi training)
This sub-area allows the HP to akempt to u^lize their hand-weapon
to deect missile akacks at an easier DR than is normally allowed.
Under normal circumstances, propelled weapons are not parry-able by

hand-weapons. Therefore, some combat sects have akempted to train
themselves to parry propelled weapons, but this is a rare and
dicult talent indeed. To parry a missile weapon, the HP must make
a weapons-special skill roll at a DR of "Hard" , which then enables
them to parry that par^cular blow as if it were a medium-thrown
weapon (parry using combat hand weapons at DR of "Dicult")
instead of a propelled weapon (non-parryable). Essenâlly, if the
character makes their weapons-special skill roll, they are u^lizing
the shield parry chart for that par^cular shot. However, if the
character fails to make their weapons special skill roll, they cannot
dodge, parry, etc. They are commiked to standing in front of the
shot and deec^ng it... if they miss their oppertunity, they take
immediate damage. If they cri^cally fail either their weapons
special skill roll or their parrying roll, they take a cri^cal hit
from the shot they are akemp^ng to parry. A cri^cal success on the
parry roll may en^tle the character to deect the shot back at the
opponent, depending on the type of weapons involved, etc. eg... a
blaster shot may be parried right back at the marksman using a light
sabre.

Theatrical Combat
This area includes many sub-disciplines, all of which are dicult
to `get o', but are quite eec^ve if successful. For example:

Theatrical Combat - Stapling
A character can akempt to staple an opponent using a pointed weapon.
The character must rst make a normal hit using combat hand-to-hand
or combat-missile weapons. Then, if the character makes a successful
weapon-special skill roll at "Dicult", they succeed at stapling
their opponent to the wall. NOTE: This only works when the opponent
is in a posiôn whereby they could be stapled (standing next to a
wall that is sov enough to be pierced by a weapon, etc), and it only
works for weapons that do piercing damage. When an opponent is
stapled, there is a one in six chance of stapling their body instead
of their clothing, in which case the akack does maximum non-vital
damage. Failure to make the `stapling' roll means that the character
placed the weapon just outside of the opponents clothing...
in^mida^ng, but not really dangerous! An opponent can release
themselves in one CT with no problem as long as only their clothing
is stapled (well, no problem other than ruining their wardrobe!).
Otherwise, they must take an extra amount of randomly determined
amount of non-vital damage when freeing themselves (they must pull
out the dagger, tear the esh, etc.)

Theatrical Combat - Weapons Display
For this ability to have an eect, the HP must whirl a non-missile
weapon about their body. The observer must be close enough to see
the display. The display has no eect upon those already engaged in
close combat, as they are too busy to pay akenôn to the show.
Also, weapons display works only on those individuals intelligent
enough to recognize the danger, who can either use weapons or have
seen them used. i.e. it is impossible to impress a bear by whirling
a dagger in your ngers. Likewise, a highly intelligent creature
that has never seen a weapon used will also be unin^midated by the
display. To eect such a display, the character must make a normal
combat-hand-weapons roll at a DR of "Hard", and then make a
successful weapons-special skill roll at a DR of "Dicult". If
they are successful, any opponents witnessing such a display will
seriously reconsider akacking the HP using melee techniques
(although this might just convince them to back o and pepper the HP
with arrows, etc... a la' Indiana Jones) Any opponent who witnesses
such a display must make a percepôn-Mental roll at a DR of "Hard",
or will refuse to akack for 1d6 CT's. The character may u^lize
this ^me to parlay, to make preparaôns, etc. However, the fear of
the character's superior combat skill does not stop the opponents
from keeping distance from the character to a constant... therefore,
the ^me may not be used to "run away", as the opponents will simply
follow at a safe distance. If the character akacks in any fashion,
the opponent will of course be forced to defend themselves, and the
eect of the weapons display is lost.

Theatrical Combat - Special Parrys
For this ability to work, the character must be procient in both
the Disarming sub-area and the Theatrical Combat Sub-area. If this
is the case, and the character makes a successful disarming
maneauver, they may akempt to make it a àshy' disarm at no extra
cost (even if they fail, it's s^ll a disarm, just not as `cool'!).
For this to succeed, the character must make an extra weapons-special
skill (theatrical combat) roll at a DR of `dicult'. (This should
make the occurance rare enough that the GM need never really worry
about it!). If the disarm maneuver is determined to be a àshy'
disarm, here are some suggesôns... - weapon falls on opponent,
doing a randomly determined amount of damage. - weapon falls into
character's hands... character may catch and use weapon if they make
a `juggling' roll on the missile deecôn chart for `large/slow'
objects - weapon falls into character's ally's hands... weapon may be
caught and used as above. - weapon falls point rst, and s^cks into
wall, ceiling, ground, etc. - weapon is broken/cut in mid-air by
character (ail is severed, sword is snapped, etc.)

If the situaôn merits, the opponent who has been disarmed may
`seriously reconsider their acôns', as in the weapons display
above. However, again, this does not preclude the opponent defending
themselves should the character press the advantage. Instead, a good
theatrical disarm will essenâlly `halt the acôn' while the
opponent reconsiders duelling such a procient opponent.

Note: The theatrical combat sub-areas are good for style, but not
much else. They are very dicult to `get o', and even then are
not much dierent from `normal akacks'. However, they do make
combat a likle more entertaining, and should be acknowledged by
grateful GM's as an akempt to do something other than `cleave the
other guy into likle bits!'.

Combat - Rules for Reach

As an individual who has trained extensively with various melee'
weapons, rearms, thrown weapons, etc, I have developed the following
rules for iniâ^ve to more accurately represent the
advantages/disadvantages of various weapons.

1. When two opponents square o, the opponent with the weapon with
the longest reach invariably akacks rst. This represents the fact
that the individual can bring their weapon into bear before the other
individual can. The defender must parry the weapon, or at least have
the opponent miss them, before they can `move into range' of their
shorter weapon in order to get their defensive akacks o. In actual
combat, any individual with a longer weapon simply backs up a half
step between rounds and is again at a reach advantage. Such a step
incurs no penalty in game terms, and is merely a by-product of
gh^ng with this weapon. 2. when two opponents square o, and they
have weapons of equal reach, then their modied iniâ^ve number
determines who moves rst. 3. Use the 30-beat CT rules as per MMM.

Example
Say you have a Roman centurian, armed with a spear of reach 3,
against a Gaul armed with an axe of reach 2. Every round, even if
the Gaul is quicker, the poor Gaul must s^ll enter the `danger zone'
of the Roman's spear whenever he wants to akack. Thus, even a Gaul
with a great iniâ^ve roll must put himself in harms way before he
can akack. Consequently, characters with longer weapons get to roll
their akacks before characters with shorter weapons. Either the
longer-weaponed Roman misses, or the Gaul must parry the `successful'
akack before the Gaul stands any chance of moving into akacking
distance. Between rounds, the two characters are assumed to `jockey
for posiôn' as per any standard melee' style, and this incurs no
extra penalty...come on, footwork is part of the process, is it not!
Advangates...Using this system, characters using pikes, spear-walls,
akacking from the second row, etc., gain a great advantage over the
poor ghter who simply wades in with his sword. Tac^cs become more
important, and the styles of combat begin to reect an intelligent
approach towards dierent weapons, as well as dierent weapon
combinaôns. Pairs of intelligent ghters will use one long weapon
and one short one to gain the advantages of both. This promotes real
team-play, as well as a more realis^c gh^ng style.

Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:57:32 +1100
Subject: Re: Help

At 02:08 PM 11/19/96 -0500, you wrote:
><< If you mean non HP's then I'd say reasonably tough. I imagine that your
>75%
> is specialised so as soon as he loses his two hander (which would happen in
> my game at the rst oppertunity) his advantage disapears rapidly. >>
>
>This situaôn is always an issue, and not just for weapons. And its a lot
>of fun to watch people deal with items/skills etc. that are not personal
>favorites. However, (and this is a big however) IMNSHO if you are
>deliberately seeking to separate personas from these items based on your JM
>knowledge, it is not good JMing. I take absolute delight in confusing,
>confounding, etc. players and personas; but your comment implies a mind set
>where I'd far rather tell the player " your characters skills are excessive
>for my campaign, what else have you got" then try to bend the persona to my
>liking.
>
>If its occasional and makes sense, ne. If not, why bother.
>
>Rick C.
>
>
OUCH!!!

That'll teach me to not use those emo^cons, although I don't think even
those would come to my rescue in this case. I see I'll denatly have to be
less ippant in public.

In an eort to stop my reputaôn going completely down the pipe I must
state that the comment was a c^cious and exagerated example to make a
point and not in any way an example of my JM technique.

Now please excuse me while I take ^me out to lick a few wounds.

Brian
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 07:29:57 -0600

Subject: 30 Beat CT

Could someone explain the 30 beat CT thing to me? I don't have MMM(like
90% of the other people here, damn you T$R) and would like to know what
it is so that I might see if its beker than what's in our books. IMHO,
Its part of play and therefore fair game to be talked about here...

P.S. T$R is so concerned about making money, they could make tons is
they would just release MMM or any of the Mythus stu for sale again.
--------------------------------------------------------------Jason Bilbrey
jbilb682@uwsp.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:08:49 +0000
Subject: Re: 30 Beat CT

The Thirty Beat CT

Each CT is only three seconds long, and is lled with various
acôns by various people. However, you are limited in just how much
you can do in a CT. It works as follows.

You are allowed 30 Iniâ^ve "Beats", like those of a drum or
metronome. Essenâlly, these count as the same types of numbers as
your iniâ^ve modiers, your speed penalês, and so on.
Therefore, you have to keep track of all these likle numbers, and
make sure you're not doing too much in a CT.

Example: You roll a 7 on a d10 for iniâ^ve (you've used up 7 of
your beats). You then move (6 iniâ^ve modier = 6 more beats for
a total of 13 used up). You then draw your weapon (7 iniâ^ve
modier plus another 2 for changing acôn) for a total of 22 beats used up). You've closed with your
enemy, so you decide to akack. You're only allowed
another acôn that uses a minimum of 8 Beats... anything greater
than that you just don't have ^me for.

PROBLEM..The 30-beat CT system demands that you use
a modier of3 for every single akack that you make. In addiôn
to this, you have to add the speed factor of the weapon to each
akack. Therefore, even if your skill is high enough to make three
akacks per round, it is not oven that you will have the ^me to do
so.

Furthermore... you have to add the Speed penalty of your armour to
every single acôn.
Finally... remember that every single change in acôn brings with it
another penalty of 2.

You just can't do that much in a CT...

Combat Example for the tradiônal 30-BEAT CT system...
:Angus McGregor rolls a 6 for
iniâ^ve, and is wearing no armour... just a war-kilt. He is using a
great two-handed claymore... SF of 8!. He is skilled enough to get 3
akacks per round, being the greatest warrior in his clan. He
prepares to go in and act as the great Scoish Moulinex that he
is...

However, he can't get all his akacks o this round. His poor
iniâ^ve roll (6) uses up 6 beats. He closes with his enemy (7
movement) for a total of 13 beats used up. His claymore is slow, so
his rst akack uses up 11 beats (3 per akack plus 8 weapon speed)
bringing his total up to 24. His second akack demands another 11
beats (3 per akack plus 8 weapon speed) which he just doesn't
have...

He is akacked by a weasley likle Thief, who is throwing daggers at
him from afar. The Thief is using his juggling skill, which modies
the ROF to 3 for knives, and the thief's player is thinking that it
is ^me to see how quickly a Scoksman can be made into a
pin-cushion. He has a 47 STEEP in missile weapons, which modies
the ROF of a weapon by x3!! WOW... nine thrown knives in three
seconds... he'll never make it!

The Thief rolls a 6 for iniâ^ve, and is wearing studded leather
armour, with a couple other goodies, for a SF penalty of 2. He's
used up 8 beats so far. He has to use up a base 3 per akack plus
the speed factor of 2 for the weapon... therefore each akack uses up
5 beats. ALSO... his armour adds to each one of his acôns.
Therefore, each akack uses up an addiônal 2 beats because of the
SF from his armour.

He's used up 6 beats from iniâ^ve. His rst akack uses up
another 7 (3 for akack, 2 for dagger, 2 for armour) for a total of
13. His second akack uses another 7, for a total of 20. His third
akack uses a nal 7, for a total of 27. He doesn't have enough for
another akack. Sorry, Charlie...you only get 3 akacks this round.

Had he not been wearing armour, the same thief could get o more
akacks, since the armour penalty wouldn't apply to each acôn. His
iniâ^ve roll of 6 plus 5 per akack (3 for akack and 2 for

dagger) brings him up to 4 akacks total (6+5+5+5+5= 26). Had he
rolled slightly lower on his inia^ve, he could have got another
akack o as well.

BENEFITS:
This system takes care of the ridiculously high rate of akacks that
some characters claim to have once they reach higher STEEPS. It also
allows people to space the ^ming of their akacks quite accurately.

More importantly, however, it forces characters to seriously examine
the use of HUGE, SLOW WEAPONS and HUGE, SLOW ARMOUR. Sure you do
great damage and you're safe inside all that metal, but you just
can't move quickly enough to get o more than one or two akacks per
round. In our party, it has almost universally eliminated armour
use, and has made people rely on quick weapons like rapiers and
daggers, as well as increasing the dependance on parrys. More to the
point, it has made combat more realis^c, and more fun.

Remember, if your base iniâ^ve roll starts at -16 (from a PMSpd of
16), then your nal BEAT will land on +14. If your base iniâ^ve
roll starts at -19 (from a whopping PMSpd of 19) then your nal BEAT
will land on +11. (there is no zero beat, and coun^ng goes from -1
to +1...)

ANOTHER THING...
In the event of Total Surprise, use a 20 "beat" CT, and assume all HPs begin their ac^vity at the
same ^me. No individual Iniâ^ve roll needs be made.
The ^ming of all addiônal acôns is then calculated by
adding SFs to nd when they occur, with the beginning of
the CT on "beat" +1 and ending at the end of +20.

Hope this claries things...

Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:17:45 +0000
Subject: QUICKEN!!!

Okay, okay, I hate quicken as much as the next guy. However, in our
group we seem to have come up with some answers to the problem.

1. If you use a 30 BEAT CT system, Quicken doesn't double the
akacks available. Instead, it only doubles the number of BEATS
available to your character. If you lack the skill to actually get
the akacks o with your newfound quick reexes, then that's too
bad.

2. The iniâ^ve modier of-10 is excessive. We use a-5 system,
and we do not have that add any BEATS to the CT.

3. We actually use three dierent levels of Quicken, depending upon
whether you use a rst,third, or vh level version.

First Level
+ 10 BEATS, -3 iniâ^ve.

Third Level
+20 BEATS, -5 iniâ^ve

Fivh Level
+30 Beats, -10 iniâ^ve

AFivh level cas^ng may seem excessive, but remember, it's for
those occasions when the enemy absolutely, posi^vely has to become dead
RIGHT NOW!!

Remeber, we don't double the number of akacks automa^cally...
instead, we just make the number of possible akacks increase via the
increase in the number of acôns possible (increased BEATS).
However, if you lack the skill to get those akacks o, then forget
it!

This system works very nicely. It adds avour and style, without
destroying game balance.

Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:16:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Help

<< In an eort to stop my reputaôn going completely down the pipe I must
state that the comment was a c^cious and exagerated example to make a
point and not in any way an example of my JM technique.

Now please excuse me while I take ^me out to lick a few wounds.

Brian >>

Brian,

Didn't mean to leave any bleeders. But I've seen this as an actual aitude
on dierent boards wherein the DM/GM whateverM, thinks the game is a contest
between the players and him/herself, not a coopera^ve gaming experience. I
may be a touch sensi^zed to the issue.

Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:20:45 -0500
In-Reply-To: <199611201709.KAA76710@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca> from "Robert
Wol" at Nov 20, 96 10:08:49 am

> BENEFITS:
> This system takes care of the ridiculously high rate of akacks that
> some characters claim to have once they reach higher STEEPS. It also
> allows people to space the ^ming of their akacks quite accurately.

As I understand the actual combat system (as per my brother's
interpretaôn), it already uses something similar, although slightly
dierent.
There are 20 intervals in a CT. The rst interval falls as determined by
the best iniâ^ve (say a weapon speed factor of 5 with no armor penalty,
and an PMSpd of 17 with a 4 on the d10, that would total out to a -8
iniâ^ve, if that were the best). In this example, the CT starts at -8
and ends at 12. Each melee akack has an akack interval of 10, each missile
akack has an interval of 5 (plus other factors, which commonly include
reloading for missiles). Marâl Arts forms are excepôns to the rule, with
each marâl arts akack form having its own interval.
Also, once everyone has acted at least once (even though all 20 intervals
may not have been used), the CT ends. So, at best, no maker how great an HP
is with a sword, no more than 3 akacks will ever be allowed during 1 CT,
and for that to happen, the HP has to be going against someone really,
really slow and inexperienced. Most of the ^me, even 2 akacks in a single
CT is rare.
A problem people might have with this system is that any non-marâl arts
melee weapon, no maker if it is as small as a dagger or as big as a great
sword, will have an akack interval of 10. This is not a problem. If 10
intervals is more or less equivalent to 1 akack, then a speed 2 weapon is
about half an akack faster than a speed 7 weapon, for example. Using your
proposed rule of 3 added to speeds in this case, you'll see that 2+3 is
about twice as fast (or half as slow) as 7+3.
The system as is wriken (or at least how my brother has interpreted it) is
genius, and I haven't found any problems with it whatsoever.

Even consider the missile weapons.
A bow vs a sword. Now, the sword has an interval of 10 while the bow has a 5
(because it's a missile weapon). It may seem unrealis^c because you can
slash faster than you can load the arrow into the bow and re, but there is
a loading penalty of 8, I think, and you'll have to load each and every CT
(with the possible excepôn of the 1st one if you were already prepared).
Run the numbers through the system using equivalent HPs and you'll see that
it is nearly impossible, if possible at all, for the bow to win iniâ^ve.
Now, consider the mul^-genre aspect. Pulling a trigger on a gun should be
faster than the sword, and, assuming the gun is loaded, that holds. The gunuser is likely to get twice as many akacks in a CT (even more if the gun
has a low speed) as the sword-user.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:55:55 EST
Subject: MMM

"Bilbrey, Jason E" writes:

> I don't have MMM(like 90% of the other people here, damn you T$R) and
90%? I'd say like 20%, and I am wondering if they even exist at
all...........

>P.S. T$R is so concerned about making money, they could make tons is
>they would just release MMM or any of the Mythus stu for sale again.

But remember T$R is also concerned with preven^ng anything EGG is
associated with from seeing the light of day............................
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 04:15:30 +0000
Subject: Re: QUICKEN!!!

I use the standard iniâ^ve modier for quicken. But I use the
spaced combat also. I also added this likle beauty. They must roll
against there PMcap or age 1 year. Nonhumans age 5 years. If they
have endurance they roll that rst then there pmcap. All of these
are at a DR of hard.

Randy
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 04:15:30 +0000

In my interpretaôn of that combat system( which is the way I
play)you start at the lowest iniâ^ve. The reason being is this.

Say everyone has a Pmspd of 10(slow) weapons speeds of 7, 6 and 5.
Also rolls of 8, 5 and 1.

Fighter A = +5 and +15.
Fighter B= +1 and +11.
Fighter C= -4, +6 and +16. He gets the rst and last akack since
he won iniâ^ve. Now had been quickened he would have went at -14
and -4. This would mean no one gets to akack. This way everyone
gets at least two acôns and the fast people will own you in combat.
This also makes marâl ar^sts preky darn tough. Also something
we came up with to determine strike locaôn without having to make
an extra dice roll is this. Read your dice roll backwards to
detrmine the extra damage. If the roll is "24" the "4" means x4
damage. If the roll is "23" the "3" means x3 damage. Finally on a
roll of "22 and 21" the damage is x2. All other backward reads mean
normal damage. As long as you hit just read it backwards and thats
the addiônal damage. I know the strike locaôn is a likle more
generous with the super vital and vital both equalling 15%, but I did
this for simplicity sake. Tell me what you think.

Randy
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:38:18 +0100
Subject: Re: MMM

>90%? I'd say like 20%, and I am wondering if they even exist at
>all...........
So you want to say that I don't exist? Ask Sean, he's been geing some
*REAL* cash from me - and is probably using my last name for a character
right now :-)

Oh - and I'd kill to get the MMM (I also s^ll don't have the Besâry).

Joerg

PS: If someone WANTED to send me copyrighted material such as, umm, for
example MMM, I should not be the one to tell anyone... :-)

"Soon the coldest night will fall,"
"Summoned by you own hand!"
Queen: "The Prophet's Song"
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:26:47 -0500
Subject: Quick Quesôn

In the Mythus book there is a passage about a persona's STEEP being unable to
exceed that area's TRAIT, e.g. Combat, Hand Weapons STEEP is limited to 100
if that persona has a TRAIT of 100. My quesôn is this: does this apply to
the opônal Sub-Area Specializaôn as well?

One of my player has a persona with a P TRAIT of 118 and a CHW in the high
60s. Since he has specialized in the 1-handed Swords Sub-Area, those weapons
are now over 100 BAC. Do I limit the STEEP only of the base K/S Area to 118
(which would allow a STEEP of 176 in that Sub-Area) or do I limit the base
CHW STEEP to 78 (which yields a 1-handed Swords STEEP of 117)?

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:27:03 -0500
Subject: Mythus Magick Correcôns, Pt. 1 (LONG)

Gentlefolk,

Here is part of a project I have been puing o for far too long, viz. my
eort to catalog all the anomalies (typos, unclear points, etc.) in Mythus
Magick.. I am too busy to nish the en^re book any ^me soon, but this
should be enough to get you all started in ring o quesôns, answers, and
deba^ng some of the points I raise. You will note that I have avoided
direct quotes from the manual except where necessary to keep copyright
infringement accusaôns to a minimum.

pg. 3, col. 1: missing text ("Chapter 9: ") before the phrase "Other
Prac^ôners' Archetypical Cas^ngs".

pg.3, col. 2: missing text ("Chapter 10: ") before the phrase "Specic
Cas^ngs".

pg. 8, table: several errors and/or inconsistencies between this table and
the descripôns of the Heka-producing K/S Areas in the Mythus book; here
are the correcôns I have made:
"Apotropaism" should be "STEEP + (MMCap+MRCap) x 0.5"
"Spellsongs" should be "STEEP + (MMSpd+MRSpd) x 0.5"
"Endurance" should be "STEEP + (PMPow+PNPow) x 0.5"
"Heka-Forging" has contradictory informaôn: the table lists "STEEP + PM
CATEGORY" as the formula, yet note 5 and the descripôn in the rst book
say that the average of PMPow and PNPow is the case in all instances [save
where a persona draws his Heka from Physical K/S areas only (when it is the P
TRAIT )] as the addiôn to STEEP. The "PM CATEGORY" reference is most
likely an error.
"Music" should be "STEEP + (PMSpd+PNSpd) x 0.5"
"Smithing" is missing from the table; it should be placed aver "Music" and
its Base Heka Generaôn is "STEEP" (only). Note that, as claried
somewhere in one of the MMMs, this Heka is available for use in any K/S Area,
not just Physical ones.
"Conjuraôn" should be "STEEP + (SMPow+SPPow) x 0.5"
"Poetry/Lyrics" should be "STEEP + (SMSPd+SPSpd) x 0.5"
"Religion" should be "STEEP + SP CATEGORY," not "SMPow" (as menôned in MMMM
somewhere)
"Sorcery" should be "STEEP + (SMPow+SMSpd) x 0.5"
Note 5: is inconsistent with the table as noted above.

pg. 14, col. 1: the ACT Heka Regeneraôn table is not complete; the
addiôn to it were published in one of the issues of MMM.

pp. 25-26: the deniôn of a "Readied" cas^ng as used in the text is not
consistent with the deniôn of "Readied" as provided in one of the issues
of MMM. For clarity, the word "Readied" used here in the paragraph which
spans the two pages and in line 3 of the "STEEP Adjustments (Opônal)" table
should be changed to another; I propose the word "primed' be used in its
place to describe the +10 bonus one receives for considering a Cas^ng over
the course of a single CT. Line 4 of the table and the ar^cle in MMM uses
the word "ready" to mean the act of preparing a Cas^ng by spending as much
^me as it would take to normally ac^ve the Cas^ng in a medita^ve state.
The Heka is also spent for such readied Cas^ngs up front, the advantage
being that they can be ac^vated much quicker than normal.

pg. 27, col. 2: under the descripôn of a Charm, the statement is made that
a Charm's eect takes place at the same moment in the following Cri^cal
Turn, which means it does not take place within the same CT as its
ac^vaôn. By extension, I take this to mean that no Cas^ng of any kind
(save an Eyebite) can aect a target within the same CT it is ac^vated,
unless one uses the "Readied Cas^ng" rules published in MMM.

pg. 27, col. 2: under the descripôn of a Spell, note that it says an
instrument of some sort is nearly always required. This means cap^ve, naked
personas cannot ac^vate any but a handful of Spell-length Cas^ngs, and by
extension they can never ac^vate any Formula or Ritual (pg. 28) without at
least some equipment.

pg. 28, col. 1: under the heading "Target Resistance," there seem to be
contradictory sentences following one another; the rst sentence starts with
the clause "Some targets have a Resistance to Heka...", whereas the second
sentence starts with the clause "Any^me a senênt creature is to be
directly aected by Heka itself...". Unless the rst statement is
specically intended to mean both animate and inaniamte objects as targets
(for which I would feel more comfortable if there were other references using
that frame of meaning), one cannot say "some targets" and "any^me" and have
them both be true. My feeling is that this paragraph is only meant to refer
to a group of specic Cas^ngs such as "Mind Numb Charm" which require the
expenditure of Heka to overcome a specic ATTRIBUTE/CATEGORY/TRAIT. If,
however, the "Cas^ng Costs" table is really to be applied to all such cases,
do the values contained therein apply in addiôn to a listed Heka Resistance
for creatures such as Demons? In that case, Demons become much more powerful
as Heka akacks (at least iniâlly) are much less likely to work on them.
Clearly, more explanaôn is required here.

pp. 29-31: the subject of known and recallable cas^ngs has been of interest
lately. Here is my interpretaôn of the rules as specically laid out in
Mythus Magick:
1. A Caster's Known Cas^ngs are those that can be brought into play
instantly, e.g. a Charm-length Cas^ng can be started and completed in that
CT with the eect taking place in the next CT, while a Cantrip can be
started that CT and nished four CTs later, with its eect happening on the
following (sixth) CT.
2. A Caster's Recallable Cas^ngs are those that require some mental eort
before they can be brought into play. Each CT a caster desires to u^lize a
recallable Cas^ng, they must make a roll vs. an ATTRIBUTE or ATTRIBUTE total
at a DR stated on the table on page 29. Failure means another akempt is
possible next CT; success means that it can be brought into play that CT as
stated above, e.g. if three akempts are made to dredge up a Recallable
Cas^ng of Charm-length with a proper value not being rolled unitl that third
CT, the Cas^ng can be carried out that CT and have its eect take place
next CT ( a total of four CTs from the start of the process to recall the
Charm). If a Cantrip were subs^tuted for the Charm, it would be begun on CT
3 and not nished un^l CT 7 with its eect occuring on CT 8 aver star^ng
the recall process.
3. A caster's Studyable Cas^ngs consist of all the caster's Known and
Recallable Cas^ngs, plus a number of others as set out on pages 30 and 31.
As the rules are wriken, the caster may at will study cas^ngs from their
tomes and place them on the Known or Recallable list, which implies that the
contents of both the Known and Recallable lists may be altered and/or
shued about at will (always drawing from the Cas^ngs in one's tomes, not
all available Cas^ngs from the MM book) so long as the tomes are available
for perusal and the formulas on page 29 are strictly observed.
4. There does not appear to be any notaôn anywhere on how long it takes to
study a Cas^ng and thus place it on one's Known or Recallable list. I have
read Mythus Magick front to back and the pieces of MMM I have available, yet
I have not found any authora^ve statement on the subject.
5. Regarding a recent topic, each HP possessing Heka-producing &
Cas^ng-genera^ng K/S Areas starts with a number of tomes, one per such
Area, containing the Studyable Cas^ngs for that HP
(Known+Recallable+others).

pg. 31, col. 2: this is not an error, but note that several low-grade
Cas^ngs with no details are listed near the bokom of this column; such
Cas^ngs serve the purpose of preven^ng HPs from becoming too complacent
about relying on their Heka-wielding abiliês. I certainly have overlooked
them un^l now but I will no longer do so.

pg. 32, both col.: the previous note applies to these Cas^ngs as well.

pg. 33, table: There are a plenitude of errors in this table "General
Dweomercraev Cas^ngs," more I think than in any other table in the book so
far. Most of them are wrong length descripôn, and there is no
authorata^ve source to correct it, so I here present the correcôns I feel
are the most likely given extensive study of the Cas^ngs, their grades,
descripôns, and similariês to other Cas^ngs.
Grade I: "Lock Spell" should be "Lock Charm"; "Lockopen Spell" should be
"Lockopen Charm"
Grade II: "Circle of Magic Ritual" should read "Circle of Magick Ritual";
"Translate Script Formula" should be "Translate Formula"
Grade III: "Alert Spell" should be "Alert Ritual"; "Mul^lingual Charm"
should be "Mul^lingual Spell"
Grade IV: "Akrac^ve Force Charm" should be "Akrac^ve Force Cantrip";
"Daylight Cantrip" is not in the Cas^ng descripôns (perhaps it is a
cross-mistake from the White Dweomercraev list); "Literate Spell" should be
"Literate Formula"; "Nega^ve Gravity Charm" is not in the Cas^ng
descripôns (perhaps it is a cross-mistake from the Elemental Dweomercraev
list); "Parascopy Cantrip" should be "Parascopy Spell"; "Thought Message
Cantrip" should be "Thought Message Charm"
Grade V: "Wound, Spiritual Charm" is not in the Cas^ng descripôns
(perhaps it is a cross-mistake from the Black Dweomercraev list)
Grade VI: not only are there mistakes in Cas^ng length descripôns, the
list is not in alphabe^cal order and one Cas^ng ^tle is not accurate; here
is how the list should read:
AEthereal Travel Formula
Arcane Lore Spell (*not* Formula)
Disperse Heka Flow Cantrip
Double Barrier Spell
Heka Blast Charm (*not* Cantrip)
Heka Shield Spell
Phase Shiving Spell
Pythagoras' Extra-Dimensional Door Spell
Quickcast of Inhetep Charm (*not* Inhetep's Quickcast Charm)
Sphere of Secrecy Formula
Grade VIII: "Heka Beam Cantrip" should be "Heka Beam Charm"; "Triple Heka
Barrier Cantrip" should be "Triple Barrier Cantrip"

Grade IX: "Heka Redirecôn Ritual" should be "Heka Redirecôn Formula"

I will post more later, but I don't know when yet. I hope this is useful to
all listmembers.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 19:21:58 -0600
Subject: Quick Answer

>My quesôn is this: does this apply to
>the opônal Sub-Area Specializaôn as well?

My quick answer is "no". p. 98 (book 1) states "When you u^lize a
Specialized area, the eec^ve number of STEEP points your HP has is
mul^plied by 1.5 (drop fracôns) for purposes of determining whether it
is successful."

The key words are "eec^ve STEEP". Technically, based on this, I'd say
that the TRAIT limit applies to "STEEPs" and not "eec^ve STEEPs". (If
I'm wrong, then I suppose you'd have to limit the eects of magick items,
enchantments, etc. which confer potenâlly high STEEPs.) It's a useful
dis^ncôn to keep in mind. Specializing doesn't change your STEEP, it
just gives you extra skill when you use a par^cular sub-area and reduces
your skills when you use others. This also answers a recent quesôn about
applies AP to specialized K/S areas. Use the "base" STEEP unless the HP is
actually 'u^lizing' the K/S.

So, let them get their 'eec^ve' STEEP of 120.

-Doug

free@mcn.net
Bozeman, MT
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:51:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Quick Answer


<< >My quesôn is this: does this apply to
>the opônal Sub-Area Specializaôn as well?

My quick answer is "no". p. 98 (book 1) states "When you u^lize a
Specialized area, the eec^ve number of STEEP points your HP has is
mul^plied by 1.5 (drop fracôns) for purposes of determining whether it
is successful." >>
<<<<<

And now for the ip side..... The raônal behind the STEEP <= Trait rule
is that you can never be beker at something than your (applicable) Trait
allows. If one buys into that theory, it doesn't maker if its 'actual' or
'eec^ve' STEEP, you shouldn't be able to exceed the Trait score.

This isn't a problem we've been faced with yet as I use a +/- 20% scheme for
specializaôn. However, when it occurs I will likely limit them to Trait.

Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:22:40 +1300
Subject: Re: Aura Chart

That's a really useful aura chart you posted, Mr Wol -- it's nice to see
such a volume of high-quality stu aver the list has been quiet for so
long. I'll make instant use of it for a new gypsy OP, and encourage some of
the players to look at the fortune-telling area. Naturally I'll tweak it a
bit, like all JMs :)

Just a quesôn to check that I understood it right

>Beliefs Indigo
>Malign/Benign Magenta

When you list something like that, do you mean that a shining magenta aura
could equally well indicate malign or benign intent? So, say, someone who
radiates a glimmering aura of magenta and scarlet could just as likely be
passionately in love or consumed with hatred?

Malcolm
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:17:29 +0000

I think we must play a VERY dierent version of the 30 beat CT.

In our game, each individual character only gets 30 beats to act
upon, but those 30 beats could span dierent spaces.

Example: One person's 30 beats last from -18 to +12, while their
partner's last from -13 to +17.

My iniâ^ve roll won't aect your performance - it only aects
the spaceing of MY acôns. Your acôns come under the governance
of your rolls.

In other words, everybody is only fast enough to move for 30 beats,
but my 30 beats may come before you even get your rst acôn o.
Thus, I could make all my akacks before you do. This doesn't mean
that you don't get your acôns. It only SPACES the acôns so that
all my acôns fall before yours.

That's QUITE a bit dierent from the interpretaôn that Randy
Sivigny is using. What do other people do?

As to Mr. Sivigny's extra dice roll for locaôn, I have to admit we
never found the locaôns roll a problem. In fact, it's one of the
highlights of the Journeys combat system for us. Again, what do
other people do.

Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:17:29 +0000
Subject: Re: Aura Chart

Hi, Malcolm...

Okay, you asked a good quesôn. If Malign/Benign is indicated by
the Magenta colour, how do you akribute a brightness?

Well, let's say that this one colour (magenta) is generated by a
character's benign intenôns. A perfectly helpful Zen monk would
generate a Brilliant shade of magenta. However, a normal "good
samaritan" type would generate a slightly less bright shade. As a
character's benign intenôns turn to malign intenôns, the shade

fades even more and more.

Thus, an extremely faint shade of Magenta indicates that this person
has no benign intenôns, but rather is more malign in intent.

Therefore, faint colour represents the nega^ve emoôn or trait, but
as the trait or emoôn becomes more posi^ve, it generates a
concurrant brightness in that par^cular shade.

Thus, the brightness of a colour in an aural spectrum really represents the level or
intensity of a par^cular trait in a character's psyche. Since some
of these traits are represented by a whole spectrum of emoôns, the
rst emoôn is indicated by the faintest glimmer of that colour,
and the second emoôn is indicated by Brilliant shades. Since it is
impossible to have both intenôns at the same ^me, usually just
place this shade at one end of the brilliance scale or at the other.

If you have a problem with this, another quick soluôn is to make
two similar colours represent these linked emoôns. Thus, instead
of faint colour indica^ng the nega^ve of an emoôn and bright
colour indica^ng the posi^ve of the emoôn, you could just have
two dierent colours represen^ng these two things.

Hope this claries things..

Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:21:13 +0000
Subject: Web Page

I es^mate that I will have a quick and dirty web page up some^me
this weekend. It should include...
1. a brief bio of myself, and some of the dealings I've had with
gaming
2. A history of my group's games over the last few years.
3. a downloads page, wherein one could download WORD 6
documents and EXCEL 5 spreadsheets containing the resources that we
use.

The tenta^ve address for this web page should be...

hkp://www.ualberta.ca/~rwol/dj1.htm

However, I am very busy right now and won't be able to write it up
un^l the weekend, so please forgive my tardiness.

Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 03:29:03 +0000
Subject: Rob Wol's Web Page

I've got an alpha version of the web page up and running. the
address is


However, you will nd that when you try to download the word6
document, it tries to load into your browser. I'm too ^red to x
it right now, and I won't have ^me to tackle it un^l the weekend.

However, you can access the four spreadsheets. They include...
1. the aura chart
2. the modern rearms spreadsheet
3. the starwars weapons and armour spreadsheet
4. the character generator with cross-feeds and expanded k/s list.

Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:19:49 +0100
Subject: Re: Rob Wol's Web Page

At 03:29 21.11.96 +0000, you wrote:

>However, you will nd that when you try to download the word6
>document, it tries to load into your browser. I'm too ^red to x
>it right now, and I won't have ^me to tackle it un^l the weekend.

That's no problem - you can always access it by right-clicking on it and
selec^ng "Download Link" (with Netscape, that is).

Yeah and thanks for the stu - It's coming in right now.
I'm already dying to see the Starwars-stu!!

Thanks,
Joerg
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:36:49 +0100
From: Alain Berthon <berthon@UNIMECA.UNIV-MRS.FR>
Subject: Re: Aura Chart and miscellaneous

Hi to all of you, daunty JM and HP !
I'm a newcomer to the list and I've read lot of good stu with interest.
First, my admiraôn to Rob Wol for his very good mul^-genre campaign
seing. I hope his players had as much pleasure during gaming sessions than
I enjoyed the reading :-)

Next Malcolm asked a good quesôn about aura reading. But I have other in
store. The colour/aura associaôn is a long used one by EGG. I've used it
intensively in my early rpg campaign, but I don't want any over use of such
powers. It's something like reading the (very) in^mate thoughts of someone,
and I think the targets of these spells/eects strongly disagree with
these. Furthermore, I think Rob Wol over es^mated the power of the aura
reading-cantrip. Perhaps some system with more heka-using for more accurate
readings sould be used, or the caster should develop his own higher-grade
formulas (and of course more heka in use).
There is also some problems about the all-in-one reading : Strong colour is
linked with a strong belief/emoôn. What about the less bright ones ? In
other words, the lesser emoôns can be hidden behind the stronger and a
very strong emoôn could even completely foil the other ones. Try to think
at a room with many colored lamps. In 'standard' illuminaôn, the dierent
colors can be seen clearly, and pointed out from each other. Now suppose you
have powerful near-blinding red spotlight, could you ever see the likle
yellow lamp in the other corner of the room ?
And what about colour-mixing ? Could it lead the heka-user to some bad
judgement ?
The use of more heka would surely sekle the maker. The colours are then
discovered in order, from the brighter to the fainter, like peeling an
oinion as the caster spend heka. Dierent grade cas^ng could also solve
the problem as the dierent emoôns are read separately, giving an eect
similar to have only one lamp alight at one ^me.

Lastly, the system can be improved by adding other feeling-based experience.
The colours are akin to the view, and you can play with forms
(sphere/polyedron), textures (smooth/rough) and taste (sweet, biker, spicy,
salty...) and odors (metallic, oral, besâl...). The JM has then the
whole span of the human senses to play with, giving him the tools to
describe with a near limitless level of accuracy the emoôns read by the
heka-user.

I hope my comments/quesôns would be clear to everyone.

Alain Berthon
(Marseille, France)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:43:38 -0800
Subject: Re: Quick Quesôn

Donald Eccles wrote:
>
> In the Mythus book there is a passage about a persona's STEEP being unable to
> exceed that area's TRAIT, e.g. Combat, Hand Weapons STEEP is limited to 100
> if that persona has a TRAIT of 100. My quesôn is this: does this apply to
> the opônal Sub-Area Specializaôn as well?
>
> One of my player has a persona with a P TRAIT of 118 and a CHW in the high
> 60s. Since he has specialized in the 1-handed Swords Sub-Area, those weapons
> are now over 100 BAC. Do I limit the STEEP only of the base K/S Area to 118
> (which would allow a STEEP of 176 in that Sub-Area) or do I limit the base
> CHW STEEP to 78 (which yields a 1-handed Swords STEEP of 117)?
>
> Don
I think this should be based more on your interpretaôn of how skills
work. If you set the trait as a maximum potenâl the character can
acchieve then specializaôn just means you reach that potenâl faster
than those who do not specialize. Aver all, if the guy has an
eec^ve STEEP of 118 why is he complaining? Maybe it is ^me for some
character development. Throw some extra ^me into your campaign - say
six months or so where is he is despondent and quits prac^cing - as he
as maxed himself out. Then slap a nega^ve STEEP penalty on him for not
prac^cing and make him realize that he has to keep prac^cing just to
maintain this superhuman level of skill.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:13:18 EST
Subject: Bast

quesôn:
do any list memebers have the DJ sta^s^cs of the Deity Bast?
perhaps on a web page or other? I am gearing up to play a Preistess of
Bast, and need more info (in DJ format) on her god.

Here's what I have

Bast is the Egypân (and Aegypân) diety who is the patron of cats
(considered holy in Aegypt), enemy of set. My old EGS' Deiês and
Demigods had very likle on her, only that all feline creatures are her
domain.....

Thanks for your help.
I only have Email, so I can't brouse the web and download the info (If
it's there).

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 09:16:54 -0800

Robert Wol wrote:
>
> I think we must play a VERY dierent version of the 30 beat CT.
>
> In our game, each individual character only gets 30 beats to act
> upon, but those 30 beats could span dierent spaces.
>
> Example: One person's 30 beats last from -18 to +12, while their
> partner's last from -13 to +17.
>
> My iniâ^ve roll won't aect your performance - it only aects
> the spaceing of MY acôns. Your acôns come under the governance
> of your rolls.
>
> In other words, everybody is only fast enough to move for 30 beats,
> but my 30 beats may come before you even get your rst acôn o.
> Thus, I could make all my akacks before you do. This doesn't mean
> that you don't get your acôns. It only SPACES the acôns so that
> all my acôns fall before yours.
>
> That's QUITE a bit dierent from the interpretaôn that Randy
> Sivigny is using. What do other people do?
>
> As to Mr. Sivigny's extra dice roll for locaôn, I have to admit we
> never found the locaôns roll a problem. In fact, it's one of the
> highlights of the Journeys combat system for us. Again, what do
> other people do.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bodhi / Rob Wol
>
I think everyone is missing the point. The combat round is 30 beats period. Iniâ^ve modiers, speed factors, etc just aect when your
acôn occurs within this period. Think of them as a framework to
lter acôns. A -14 modier does not mean that you take acôn
before the 30 beats. Just that you are probably going to act rst
within the count.

Take all of the characters and their acôns and rank them in order from
fastest to slowest. Then each takes his/her acôn in turn. If you
nd a 3 second cri^cal turn to be too slow for your tastes, change it
to something more realis^c. You do not have to change the game
mechanics to make it t your percepôns of what can really happen just your ^ming.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:49:31 +0000
Subject: Re: Aura Chart and miscellaneous

Dear Group

Alain's points are absolutely right!!

I apologize. I didn't go through a lengthy explanaôn as to the
actual use of Aural sight over a long term... only an explanaôn of
the use of the chart in genera^ng auras.

I believe that it says directly in the aural sight cantrip that only
a few colours are seen. We've experimented with a few dierent
schemes, like 1d10 random colours, or the more eec^ve scheme,
wherein only the brightest shades are easily visible. Everything
else becomes muddled.

Therefore, in our campaign, we do use repeated observaôn, repeated
cas^ngs, and extra heka to "peel away the layers of brightness".

Alain, your points are absolutely correct if the idea of auras are
used too liberally.

However, in reality, players rarely can make the intui^ve leaps to
connect more than just the ATTRIBUTE, HEKA, and some^mes ETHOS
colours to their appropriate representa^ve characteris^cs.
Everything else tends to remain guesswork, even over months and
months of careful player deliberaôn.

I readily agree that a rst level cas^ng that reveals all about a
character's inner-most self would be ridiculous. However, if you
only give out the brightest shade (for us, it's the brightest 2
shades... with a percepôn roll to make sure you're really geing
the dimmer of the two shades correct... and believe me BOY is it fun
when they blow that roll and make erroneous connecôns...) you will
nd that it simply becomes a sort of nebulous, general
intelligence-gathering cas^ng.

We also use two higher-level cas^ngs: one to make more brightness-intensity
levels accessible, and the other as a "polarized light shield", so that the
onion of aural brightness is revealed from dimmest colour to brightest.

Of course, we also then nd that many players want an amulet, or
take the cas^ngs, that negates their aura into a moderately bright
general colour rainbow... indica^ng no one characteris^c over
another.

Like I said, I've mainly concentrated on geing the original chart
for designing auras out onto the group... not describing the par^cular
way you u^lize the chart in your group. I (perhaps foolishly)
assumed that all people would u^lize this cas^ng in a similar
fashion... as a general intelligence cas^ng, fraught with more fun
and frustraôn than immediate gra^caôn.

Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:06:09 -0500
Subject: Re: MMM

>>P.S. T$R is so concerned about making money, they could make tons is
>>they would just release MMM or any of the Mythus stu for sale again.

>But remember T$R is also concerned with preven^ng anything EGG is
>associated with from seeing the light of day............................

It's crap like this that makes me wonder why I even try to be nice to anyone
on this list.

- Sean
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:14:33 +0000
Subject: CHRISTMAS, VIOLENCE, and GENDER

Okay, here's the story...

Two of our female gamers in our group (actually, they're sisters) had
to leave our group a few months ago because they were moving down to
the United States (insert typical Canadian/U.S. friendly rivalry comment in this
space)

I just received messages from the two of them that they are coming to
visit for two weeks at Christmas. They will be staying with me, and
have both indicated that they want to partake in an en^re campaign
over the Christmas Break. It seems they can't nd a decent gaming
group in Chicago (don't take it personally, they're kinda fussy)

When I asked them what sort of campaign they wanted, they said
anything so long as "lots of combat was involved." They've both been
studying Kung Fu (and we have two other members in our group who are
also marâl ar^sts) so they want to get some fantasy killing in.

Anyway, when I told the other female in our group, she got excited.
She wasn't interested in the fact that the number of women would
again equal the number of men. Instead, she was of the considered
opinion that with the girls back together again, we could get back to
a more 'acôn/violence/adventure/hack-and-slash' mentality, instead
of our more 'logic/puzzle/violence-is-a-last-resort' mentality.

She's of the considered opinion that, with the addiôn of her two
blood-thirsty compatriots, the game would become a likle more
grisly.

Case in point: the women always willing to kill a prisoner if needs
be... the men are more willing to parole the prisoner, and hate
killing a helpless person EVEN if it is for the greater good.

So, it just goes to prove a point I've always secretly held. If I'm
ever captured by the enemy, for God's sakes don't give me over to the
women. Kinder just to kill me!

Does anybody else have a par^cular gender dichotomy within their
groups? I'm actually quite interested to hear about them...

P.S. I'm also interested in hearing about the general make-up, age
of any gaming group. Ours is generally ve people, age 25 to 35,
student-academic-professional types, total accumulated gaming years
(when you add each individual's experiences up ) about 70 years. Let me
know what your groups are like.

Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:59:00 -0600
Subject: Re: MMM

Woah, hold on there cowboy!! I think you've been exceedingly nice to
everyone on this list and most (if not all) greatly appreciate the
things that you do. You must remember, however, that there is a great
deal of animosity towards TSR. Now I do think that some^mes it gets a
bit out of control, but those on this list love Mythus and are deeply
hurt by the stunts that TSR pulls to shovel it under the carpet.

So, in closing, I want to say that we do apprciate YOUR eorts...the
eorts of TSR, however, leave something to be desired.

Wayne Westphalen
Omaha, NE


Subject: Re: MMM
Date: Thursday, November 21, 1996 12:06PM

>>P.S. T$R is so concerned about making money, they could make tons is
>>they would just release MMM or any of the Mythus stu for sale again.


It's crap like this that makes me wonder why I even try to be nice to
anyone
on this list.

- Sean
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:15:56 +0000
Subject: Re: CHRISTMAS, VIOLENCE, and GENDER

Our group consists of 4-7 people, average age of 27. We are all
middlle management types except one of us. We game every Friday come
rain or snow(in Minnesota that's called dedicaôn). We have no
women in our group, but no prospects either.

Randy
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:47:08 -0600
In-Reply-To: <199611211814.LAA126730@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca> from "Robert
Wol" at Nov 21, 96 11:14:33 am

> I just received messages from the two of them that they are coming to
> visit for two weeks at Christmas. They will be staying with me, and
> have both indicated that they want to partake in an en^re campaign
> over the Christmas Break. It seems they can't nd a decent gaming
> group in Chicago (don't take it personally, they're kinda fussy)

I need more players! I'm in Chicago, currently the Mythus group consists
of 4 of us, all of us are in our mid 20's and professional types.
We've only recently started the game up. Oh and we're all male.

> P.S. I'm also interested in hearing about the general make-up, age
> of any gaming group. Ours is generally ve people, age 25 to 35,
> student-academic-professional types, total accumulated gaming years
> (when you add each individual's experiences up ) about 70 years. Let me
> know what your groups are like.

See above. :)

Dan.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:05:42 -0600
Subject: Correcôns and Aura (combined)

Thanks to Don, for his Correcôns post. It was excellent. And it pointed
to a passage in Mythus Magick (p.31, col.2) that might contribute to the
Aura reading thread currently going on.

Alain wrote: "...I don't want any over use of such
powers. It's something like reading the (very) in^mate thoughts of someone."

That's right on. That's why on p.31 it there are some cas^ngs available
to prac^ôners of ALL types, from "mage to hedge". Plus non-pracôners
COMMONLY possess a "plethora" of amulets and such to accomplish the same.
And, in its brief list of typical cas^ngs, there is Nuetral Aura Charm,
etc. The omnipresence of such cas^ngs and items, to me, seems to correct
the game balance that a powerful Aural Read might disrupt.

I'm curious how other JMs run their worlds regarding these cas^ngs. How
oven do average gents walk around with false auras? How many magickal
devices does the average person carry about with them? (Might they be as
common as mace in a
young lady's purse?)

Lastly, re: STEEP > TRAIT,
I'd s^ll contend that the raônale behind the rule applies to
'actual' STEEPs, not 'eec^ve' ones. 'Eec^ve' STEEPs do not, by their
very nature, reect the general skill possessed in the K/S. They rather
reect the enhanced, temporary, or specic skill in a K/S. It doesn't
take much to imagine the Prince who specializes in horse racing. Give him
a P TRAIT of 80 to start. He begins with a STEEP of 45 (SEC of 9 ^mes 5)
in Riding. He could add 10 if he got the right quirk or spent AP, and if
his Vocaôn was Physical, he'd get something like 14 for his PMCap and
maybe 6 more for enhancing. That's a 75 STEEP, actual. If he specialized
in racing, he'd be at 107. Even if he didn't, all it would take is a
simple Mys^cism cas^ng and his STEEP would be over 80 temporarily. Would
you disallow the high STEEPs in both cases (even though the 'actual' STEEP
peaked at 75)? A magickal saddle might raise the STEEP even higher. Would
that be disallowed?
Conversely, if you didn't allow any of it, if the Prince had his P
TRAIT boosted, would the STEEPs then automa^cally be able to rise too?
On a related note, how do y'all have magickal STEEP bonuses aect
specialized sub-areas? Do they aect the 'actual' or 'eec^ve' STEEPs?

Sorry for all the quesôns, but I'm pleased to see the trac pick up.

-Doug
free@mcn.net
Bozeman, MT
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:07:02 -0700

In-Reply-To: <199611211814.LAA126730@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca> from "Robert
Wol" at Nov 21, 96 11:14:33 am

> P.S. I'm also interested in hearing about the general make-up, age
> of any gaming group. Ours is generally ve people, age 25 to 35,
> student-academic-professional types, total accumulated gaming years
> (when you add each individual's experiences up ) about 70 years. Let me
> know what your groups are like.

Sadly, I haven't gamed in over two years, due to the fact that I moved from
Chicago to Phoenix about a year and a half ago. I've never gamed Mythus,
though I've owned the books for years and really would love to actually
*play*. Unfortunately, the guys I used to game with were more interested in
just *playing* rather than learning a new system (rightly so, given the ^me
constraints we all faced as engineering majors, and the fact that graduaôn
was pending), so I never got to try the system out.

If anyone knows of Mythus players in Phoenix, let me know. I'd love to do
some serious gaming.

Aaron Brezenski

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:38:05 EST
Subject: Re: MMM

>>But remember T$R is also concerned with preven^ng anything EGG is
>>associated with from seeing the light of
day............................

>It's crap like this that makes me wonder why I even try to be nice to
anyone
>on this list.

Oh lighten up sean.
To an outsider, doesn't this seem to be the case?
Maybe you like EGG, or his reputaôn or legacy, or whatever. Maybe
you're the one supporter, maybe there are more, just like NOT EVERYBODY
on this list feels the same way I do.
I think (and this is just one guy's opinion), you need to separate
yourself from your employer, and not take every nega^ve thing said about
TSR as a personal aront.
and on this list there'd be more nega^ve than posi^ve..........

example: I served in combat for my country a few years ago, but I don't
get bent out of shape every^me someone goes and badmouths Uncle Sam.....
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:51:15 -0500
Subject: Re: MMM

>>But remember T$R is also concerned with preven^ng anything EGG is
>>associated with from seeing the light of day............................
>
>It's crap like this that makes me wonder why I even try to be nice to anyone
>on this list.
>
>- Sean

Sean,

Firstly, I would say that your eorts to help the people on this
list are greatly appreciated (by me, at least). You yourself made the
des^ncôn some ^me ago that you are NOT TSR, rather, you represent thier
interests online. I would not take the comment above personally. There are
many dieretent opinions about TSR and thier acôns (and the reasons
behind those acôns). People who know EGG and the desiôn makers at TSR
much beker than I have expressed opinions to the one above. I ^re of this
con^nuing thread as much as you seem to. I would much rather contribuôns
of the sort that Robert Wol has been making lately.

Chris Dion
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:19:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Bast


> Thanks for your help.
> I only have Email, so I can't brouse the web and download the info (If
> it's there).

However, I do have a web browser, so if any of you have infomaôn on
all the site I will help hunt this info down. Well, I am the one gearing
up for play.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Wikek |"Democracy isn't just the best form of governUSF engineering student |ment; It's the only one even remotely worth a
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:38:49 -0500
Subject: Re: MMM

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
>
> >>P.S. T$R is so concerned about making money, they could make tons is
> >>they would just release MMM or any of the Mythus stu for sale again.
>
> >But remember T$R is also concerned with preven^ng anything EGG is
> >associated with from seeing the light of day............................
>
> It's crap like this that makes me wonder why I even try to be nice to anyone
> on this list.

Interes^ng reply. Sean, given these exchanges of words, do not take it
as a personal akack. It is nice to see there are those at TSR(or
aliated with) that are willing to nd homes for the MYTHUS game
material. However, we(list group) know it is not out of the kindness of
TSR's heart. TSR is making their money. The individuals that engaged in
this exchange are just ven^ng their aggravaôn with TSR.

I understand this aggravaôn more than most. Two of three (almost the
third) of my favorite system are dead thanks to TSR and GDW's death. So,
I can appreciate their animosity toward TSR. Inherent to this type of
listserv, you should have known you might have heard the occasional
complaint. I did, and I deal with it. I do not see this animosity to
change in the near future, so you have the choice to deal with it, or
exercise your right to sign o this list.

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 01:10:11 +0100
Subject: Re: MMM


I don't really think this is the case - but even if it should be, I'm s^ll
on Sean's side - he is a nice guy and has done me a great favour by geing
the Mythus books for me.
But really - I don't think that TSR's intenôn is to prevent any
publishing from Gygax to take place!

Joerg

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:01:20 +0000
Subject: Re: MMM

I agree totally.

Randy
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 01:35:47 +0000
Subject: Re: Correcôns and Aura (combined)

(Thanks to Don, for his Correcôns post. It was excellent. And it
pointed...)

Hey Doug,...

I missed the "Correcôns Post" by Don...

Who is Don...

Could anybody e-mail me a copy, or tell me what it said?. I'd be most interested in seeing it.
I posted my own expansion, briey discussing the way we actually u^lize
the auras in our game, but I'm always happy to see what other
people have to think, especially when it concerns a thread I have a
small amount of input on...

Thanks in advance,

Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 02:20:38 +0000
Subject: non-vocalized cas^ngs.

Have you ever been in one of those posiôns in which you just goka
get a cas^ng o, but your hands and feet are êd?

Or how about being gagged? or just not wan^ng to make a lot of
noise, because the enemy guard is just a few feet away, and would be
very interested in knowing that there is an intruder anxiously
cas^ng some tricky piece of arcane chicanery...?

In our group, we allow for non-vocalized and non-gestured cas^ngs,
but with an addiônal penalty.

The base assumpôn is that all cas^ngs come with some form of vocal
cues, along with some form of gestures or moôns. However, our game
uses these as "Aids to Cas^ng", and not the strict "Mechanics of
Cas^ng".

Thus, while it is always easier to get the cas^ng o using the
pneumonic cues you've memorized, it is possible to simply "say the
words in your head" and s^ll get the cas^ng o. The same goes for
"perfectly visualizing the moôns in your head" and s^ll managing
to ac^vate the cas^ng. Of course, you could do both, and actually
get a cas^ng o without moving a muscle OR speaking a syllable.

The Base DR for a cas^ng goes up one for non-vocalized, as it does
for non-gestured. However, akemp^ng to do BOTH causes the base DR
to go up three levels.

Example: A Mage with a 31 STEEP wants to get o his rst grade
cas^ng. The DR for this is EASY. However, he'd really prefer to do
it without calling akenôn to himself in this crowded room. He can
either ...
a.) Cast without vocalizing at a DR of Moderate
b.) Cast without gesturing at a DR of Moderate
C.) Cast without vocalizing or gesturing at a DR of Dicult!!

Of course, this presupposes that all cas^ngs have some form of words
and gestures. We do this for reasons of game mechanics, game
balance, cinema^c style, and recogniôn of "accepted" magical forms
in actual "reference" books on magic and the arcane arts.

Let me know what you think. Do other people have similar rules? Is
there a beker system out there? Do you even care....

Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 02:20:38 +0000
Subject: Triggered Cas^ngs and Readied Cas^ngs

Triggered Cas^ngs and Readied Cas^ngs

We had a small problem in the beginnings of our gaming career when it
came to these items.

Readied cas^ngs made perfect sense to us. It seemed that you had
really already cast the spell, spent the heka, but just lev the
nal word unspoken. Thus, you could store up to three of these at
one ^me (although the benets for such a thing decreased extremely
if you had more than one readied cas^ng).

However, it seemed that you could get almost the same eect by using
a trigger. As well, it didn't appear that there were any limits to
using more than one trigger. Thus, you could cast the spell, using a
trigger to oset the actual ac^vaôn of a spell, and then a
physical acôn or command word would cause the spell to ac^vate and
run its normal course.

Aver determining that there was no logical reason (nor decent
seman^c interpretaôn of the actual cas^ng list) that one couldn't

have more than one triggered cas^ng, we decided on a simple rule of
thumb...

No prac^ôner is allowed more than one triggered cas^ng for every
ten full points of STEEP. Thus, at 31 STEEP you can have 3
triggers, 41 STEEP you can have four triggers, and so on.

This seriously changes the ow of the game, as you are allowed to
have long, ritualis^c cas^ngs ready at the 'ick of a bukon'.

One of the most popular cas^ngs, of course, is to have a triggered
"Quicken" Cas^ng, with the physical trigger being the drawing of
one's weapon. Thus, when combat occurs, you draw your sword and
"ZOOM!", you're quickened.

To oset the potenâlly hazardous and over-balancing aspects of
this mechanism, we adopted the idea of cas^ng fe^shes from the
SHADOWRUN genre. Thus, spells can only be triggered to certain
magickal doo-dads that can be purchased at your local heka-forger,
alchemist, talismonger, and so on. Of course, if you have the skill,
you could always make these likle gizmos... but most adventuring
mages don't have the ^me.

In this manner, it is usually easy to see an easily idenâble
"spell-trigger device", such as a cluster of feathers around a rat's
skull, or some such stereotypical spell-trigger, hanging within easy
reach o the prac^ôner's garment. You oven know that such a
device is a potenâlly nasty threat to the safety of a party. Thus,
obtaining such a device from the prac^ôner, without ac^va^ng the
cas^ng, becomes of primary importance to the thoughul party.

Example: During a brief scou^ng mission in an evil temple, the
party comes upon a Gloomy Darkness Priest and his minions walking the
corridors. Wishing to ambush the priest and his bodyguards, the
party's mage silently casts a "Detect Heka Sources", and determines
that there are dis^nc^ve Heka emanaôns coming from the ve
evil-looking talismans hanging o the Priest's belt. Not wishing
the priest to be able to get those triggered cas^ngs o, the party
then proceeds to construct a plan whereby the main bulk of the party
distracts the priests, and the THIEF-type makes an incredibly
stupid/lucky/cinema^c akempt at stealing the belt right o the
priest!!

I've got to admit, it threw me for a loop, but the rolls were good,
the joss was spent, and I decided that my poor Evil Priest was sans
triggers. It made for a mighty enjoyable event when the curious
thief decided to play around with the talismans... the trigger was,
of course, the removal of the talisman from the belt. The Thief
plucked one o a later ^me to look over it, and before you could
say "NO, DON'T!", the thief was in the midst of a nasty Gloomy
Darkness cas^ng.

Anyway, let me know how other people handle triggers. Do they play a
big part in your games? Do you use similar rule of thumb i.e. one
trigger per ten STEEP, or do you use completely dierent rules.

I'm very interested in hearing how you handle this.

Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 04:48:40 -0500
Subject: Re: MMM

>It's crap like this that makes me wonder why I even try to be nice to anyone
>on this list.

>- Sean

Sean, I hope you are not oended by the comments I am about to make, since
it seems to me that you have been more aboveboard about the Mythus situaôn
than anyone else at TSR, and have even tried to get us the MMMs on the TSR
web page.

However, you are also savvy enough to know many of the details behind the
sundering of EGG from TSR, and given several things that have happened I am
sure you would agree that there was a lot rancor on both sides over the issue
and over the nal disposiôn of Mythus; and surely you are not dispu^ng
that TSR is in business to make money. Heck, GDW was in business to make
money, though the seklement over Mythus was one of the factors in the
company's demise.

I don't know your personal relaônship with Lorraine or Jim Ward or any of
the other execu^ve members of TSR, and I've never met any of them
personally, but it is clear from many things that there was a concerted
eort to erase all of Gary's inuences from TSR products aver the split.
I'll back this up with examples if you like, but the most obvious were the
modules such as the one (the name escapes me) where several of Gary's famous
NPCs (The Circle of Eight) were all slain in the introducôn. It was
obvious to me that this existed for no other reason than one step among many
to purge Gary and his imaginary progeny. You can try to defend this by
saying, "Well, if we keep using his characters there may be a royalty issue,"
and I'm sure that is what they told themselves (and perhaps each other).
However, these things took place aver the sekelement between Gary and TSR
in 1985 (or 1986, I don't remember which).

Finally, I know it must be painful for you to hear others denigrate your
employer. I am sure you enjoy working there and you no doubt have a good
relaônship with all your confederates. Yet I hope you have enough vision
to see that many people here have a reason to be angry with TSR because they
went to extraordinary (some would say excessive) lengths to take control of
the Mythus game, spending large amounts on legal fees and a seklement in
order to seize the game. And what have they done with it? Nothing. It make
no business sense at all to ght that hard over something except in two
cases:
1. You think it is a superior product that would hurt or possibly destroy
your own product line.
2. You have a grudge against the owner of the product.

If #1 were the case, new Mythus products from TSR would have been on the
market already. Their absence and the discon^nuance of the remaing stocks
of Mythus materials by default points to case #2. If you have a third
alterna^ve that is reasonable, I would like to hear it. BTW, the arguement
that TSR was merely protec^ng its property, seemingly stolen by EGG, is
hokum. Anyone who has been around the role-playing world long enough to
remember ChainMail knows that there are dozens of games much closer in
similarity to AD&D than Mythus, where the signs of lived material are thick
as thieves.

Why did TSR only go aver Gary's product? In my opinion, because they don't
like him. Like all crea^ve people, Gary can be quite annoying at ^mes. He
is some^mes easily irritated and more than usually opinionated. Yet he is a
^reless worker, a brilliant thinker, and possessed of an imaginaôn
unsurpassed in his eld. While others create modules, Gary creates the
tools that others use to create modules. I think bikerness about the
conict over who owned which shares of stock, who had control of TSR, and so
forth lev an unhealable breach on both sides. The bakle over Mythus was
just an onslaught of a new infecôn.

So please, Sean, don't take comments about TSR personally. If you had a bad
experience at a Motel 6 you might be tempted to curse the chain forever, even
without realizing that you unpleasant stay resulted from uncaring people at
that one branch. I don't think TSR is evil; I think it is run by a few
unimagina^ve and vengeful folk who will one day have to take their turn in
the barrel. I don't think that any of our comments about TSR are directed at
you.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:43:34 +0000

Subject: Re: Triggered Cas^ngs and Readied Cas^ngs
In-Reply-To: <199611220920.CAA63430@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca>

Oh, no, not Trigger again..... ;-)

On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, Robert Wol wrote:

> However, it seemed that you could get almost the same eect by using
> a trigger. As well, it didn't appear that there were any limits to
> using more than one trigger. Thus, you could cast the spell, using a
> trigger to oset the actual ac^vaôn of a spell, and then a
> physical acôn or command word would cause the spell to ac^vate and
> run its normal course.

Trigger has several inherent limitaôns: (1) any and all variables must
be set at the ^me of the triggering; (2) all Heka must be spent at the
^me of the triggering (plus the Heka necessary for the Trigger); (3) a
targeted Trigger Eect will trigger it; (4) a Disjuncôn will Trigger
it (it's the lowest-grade ac^ve Cas^ng); (5) it's trivial to create a
Cas^ng like this one (from a previous discussion):

(from MYTHUS-L.LOG9511C):

Here's the *really simple* soluôn to all of the above:

GRADE II: GENERAL DWEOMERCRAEFT
TRIGGER ALL TRIGGERS FORMULA
Time: Instantaneous Other Heka Costs:
Area: 1 foot radius per STEEP R&D: Nil
Distance: 1 foot per STEEP Other: Nil
E/F/M: This Formula sends forth its dweomer into a radius equal to the
Distance possible for the prac^ôner, thus triggering the held Eects
of all Trigger Eect Cas^ngs lain within that area.

Now, you can argue that it should be Grade III, or such a Cas^ng is
foolishness, but I would point out that, accep^ng (for the moment) your
thoughts, we can consider the Trigger Eect (applicaôn two) to be
knocking on one door, and this is simply knocking on a dozen or so doors,
certainly only a maker of degree :-) The *other* opôn is to simply
add an 'Other' cost: 1 Heka per Cas^ng to be Triggered (bearing in mind
that the Triggering of a Cas^ng should be a minor thing). It's s^ll
preky unlikely to get more than a dozen Triggers in an area, especially
with the liberal applicaôn of a Cas^ng along these lines.

(End excerpt)

If it is possible for an opponent to trigger any and all triggered
eects, the Cas^ng is self-limi^ng. I recall a 'horror story' of
someone JMing a new party, and one of the players 'sneaking in' 13 or 14
coins with Fireash triggered on them.

Imagine the reacôn when all the parês triggers were triggered by a
device such as the above...

When the Cas^ng is as simply countered as this one (Disjoin will knock
it out, Trigger will knock it out (if the Cas^ng is known to be there),
or a Cas^ng such as the above will knock it out), there is no reason to
limit it. One disaster (or even the observaôn of such a disaster) will
encourage cauôn.

My players are convinced I'll do something just as devasta^ng if they go
overboard (and the Triggers are simply not exible for oense) that the
most they've ever carried were a couple Triggered Armor, Physicals and an
arrow (or, when there were two decent archers, one apiece) with Fireash
triggered on it.

Of course, without some form of obfuscaôn, the Trigger is easily
detected (Heka Sight, Detect Heka, etc), so someone capable of observing
the party without being caught *can* nd out what's triggered and 'take
care' of it ;-)

> Anyway, let me know how other people handle triggers. Do they play a
> big part in your games? Do you use similar rule of thumb i.e. one
> trigger per ten STEEP, or do you use completely dierent rules.

They play a big part in, for instance, traps. Aver all, protec^ng
one's home with Triggers isn't a large problem, and, depending on how you
decide Trigger works, a Disjoin might even trigger the Triggered cas^ng
anyways (if you treat it as a sort of 'Hold Eects').

However, outside of some defense, they are underu^lized by the party.
Aver all, a badly-worded Trigger could mean that those dozen Fireash
arrows go o when you trip and fall, or never go o at all. Or, worse,
the Triggers get magickally tripped all at once, and you're in the middle
of a major explosion 'cause you're carrying a lot of repower.

Aver a lot of thought (this is a confusing and badly-worded Cas^ng, as
everyone seems to agree), I decided to let it in and see what happens.
As long as the opponents are intelligent and have some way of protec^ng
themselves, it is *denitely* not overbalancing.

Anyways. I think this is one for the FAQ ;-) ("How do you deal with
Trigger?" (a) I'm a mean SOB and make them pay for abuse; (b) I ban it;
(c) I limit it; (d) I let the OP's use it extensively as well.)

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:30:28 +0000
Subject: The Trouble with Heka...

The Trouble with Heka...

In our group, we immediately discovered a problem with the idea of a
skills-based, heka-slinging universe. The problem went something
like this.

Every new character would choose dweomercraev, magick and
apotropaism for their extra mental skills. Every character would
select three spiritual heka-genera^ng skills as well. Finally, some
enterprising characters would even go so far as to choose
heka-forging as one of their extra physical skills. Thus, all
characters would get a nice pool of heka to play around with, and a
rela^vely similar set of magickal skills. They were all nice,
powerful clones of the other.

Now, I'm not puing down the urge to min/max. While most of us
recognize that it is childish to subs^tute this sort of ac^vity for
real crea^vity, we also recognize that once in a while it is so
darned COOL to have a super-powerful character with lots of heka,
even if their vocaôn is something as mundane as 'grocery clerk'.
My players were able to come up with new, marginally-crea^ve, and
depressingly raônalized ways in which to jus^fy their mercenary
being almost as powerful a mage as the mage. Furthermore, they were
able to raônalize why their mercenary characters spent most of
their ^me concentra^ng on heka skills, and not on physical skills.
And NO, to answer your quesôn before you ask it, they weren't
excessively deterred by the AP progression penalty, being physical
characters means you only spend 1.5 AP's to get a mental skill up by
a point. It was a small price to pay to have a super-strong,
super-fast, super-gh^ng WAR-WIZARD...

However, this all calmed down aver about a year, and the players got
sick of not being able to tell each other apart. They also got a
sick of their purile likle background histories which always managed
to somehow jus^fy their similar training in opônal skill-areas.
Here are some of the things that we developed to put the zing back
into your campaign, and take the s^ng out of an unbalanced,
heka-crazy mob of min/maxing players... (please note, I perhaps
foolishly assume that all JM's are more interested in crea^ve
game-play than the standard "we have a problem, I've got the cas^ng"
type of game that the previous playing-style indicates. If you're
happy with the way your party works, great! However, for myself, and
the rest of my group, we prefer the "skills rather than heka"

approach that the following suggesôns foster...)

1. No magic areas

It is interes^ng to watch tried and true and tested players falter
when they've become too addicted to readily available cas^ngs and
you take away their precious magick. Even the best player's skills
become rusty when they depend on heka too much. Let's face it... all
of us have gone through nights where every new problem becomes
defeated by a combinaôn of nivy cas^ngs. Just make certain areas
magick-dead, and watch the fun re-kindle

2. Low magick campaigns

We've been running low magick campaigns for the last year or so.
Thus, heka ows at a rate of 1:5 or 1:10, and everybody's heka pools
are diminished accordingly. The powerful mage who normally has a
thousand points of heka to sling around suddenly only has 200 or 100
points at their disposal. Thus, heka becomes a rare, precious, and
just that much more powerful thing. For those individuals who have
seriously studied the ARCANA, they can s^ll get the high-level cas^ngs o,
albeit not as oven. The rest of the 'dabblers' must sekle for the
occasional rst- or second- grade cas^ng.

3. Dierenâl Prociency

HUH? What's this mean? Well, basically, we recognize four dierent
levels of magick prociency, depending on whether the skill in
quesôn has anything to do with your vocaôn.

If your vocaôn indicates the main direcôn or focus for your life
thus-far, then your main areas of concentraôn and prociency
should be within those areas. Any "extra" skills you pick up along
the way will be held in a slightly more diminished capacity.

Thus, we recognize four main levels of prociency... star^ng from
highest to lowest, these are...

A. FULL PRACTICE

Full prac^ce is only open to people who take the vocaôn of Mage or
Priest. The benets are only applicable to the spell area that the
person has chosen as their main focus, including the rela^ve school
or magick or ethos cas^ng area. Thus, the full-prac^ôner's one
DR easier cas^ng is only applied to the single area that is the main
focus of their life.

However, we've played with full-prac^ôners before... it's boring,
boring, boring. It's too easy with a full-prac^ôner in your
group. I mean, Gods Above! A Heroin-addicted monkey could play a

full-prac^ôner and s^ll come up with ways out of any normal
gaming situaôn. Thus, as a party, we've voluntarily agreed to
eliminate the full-prac^ce roll from our character generaôn
procedure. It's ne for THEM to be full-prac^ôners, but it takes
away the fun if one of US is a full-prac^ôner.

B. Normal Prac^ôner
This refers to the level of skill one akains in a heka-area that is
directly germaine to one's vocaôn. Thus, non-full-prac^ôner
mages enjoy this level of skill with magick and dweomercraev, as do
priests. Alchemists enjoy this level of skill with alchemy,
Astrologers enjoy this level of skill with astrology, and so
on. It is the one's 'bread and buker' as it were, so one should be
fully free to prac^ce whatever cas^ngs they want to, free of
restraint.

C. Hedge-Mage Level of Prociency
When a skill is included in one's vocaônal kit, but is not directly
related to one's vocaôn (rather, it is a supplementary skill that
augment's one's understanding of their primary area), then they enjoy
the hedge-mage level of prociency. This means that cas^ngs are
always one DR harder for this skill area. Full heka is generated for
one's knowledge in this area, but actual cas^ngs are more dicult
to get o.

D. Dabbler
This is the name we have for any person who studied a non-vocaônal,
opônal heka-cas^ng skill area. Thus, any addiônal skill that
you pick when you are genera^ng your character IMMEDIATELY brings
this level of prociency. You cannot change it. Dabblers suer a
TWO DR penalty for cas^ngs in this sort of area.

Example: A Fortune-Teller has no chance at full-prac^ôner status
for any of her skills, because she is neither a mage nor a priest.
She enjoys normal prac^ôner status in her primary cas^ng area
(namely that of fortune-telling), and casts those cas^ngs free from
all restraint. She suers a one DR penalty whenever she tries to
cast from her supplementary Vocaônal cas^ng areas, such as
astrology, divinaôn, and dweomercraev. Had she taken conjuraôn
as an addiônal skill area upon creaôn, she would suer a TWO DR
penalty for all cas^ngs in conjuraôn, as this is simply an area
she dabbles in outside of her vocaôn.

4. Magick/Dweomercraev and Religion/Priestcraev

In our game, Magick is necessary to make dweomercraev funcônal, and
religion is necessary to make priestcraev funcônal.

More to the point, however, if you are neither a MAGE nor a PRIEST,
you do not enjoy a school or an ethos. You get to use the general
tutelary cas^ngs for priestcraev, or the general cas^ngs for
dweomercraev.

Furthermore, you can spend one of your extra/opônal skill areas to
"purchase" a school or ethos, but ONLY IF MAGICK OR RELIGION IS
PART OF YOUR VOCATION! If your vocaôn doesn't include a serious
study of the theore^cal skills upon which dweomercraev and
priestcraev are based, then you will never be able to fully tap into
those skills beyond the general level. Thus, a Medicine Man can take
a specic school of dweomercraev for ONE EXTRA SKILL-SLOT because
he starts with a theore^cal grounding in Magick. However, a Shaman
is not allowed to do so because his vocaôn is devoid of Magick.

Obviously, Dabblers can never take a school or ethos, either, unless
their vocaôn gives them magick or religion

5. VOWS

Vows always convert a skill to normal prac^ce level. Thus, a
mercenary who dabbles in mys^cism can take a vow in mys^cism, and
suddenly become a pseudo - Mys^c. However, vows in our game are
serious things (especially in Mys^cism, as I am a serious student of
Buddhist philosophy and mys^cism, and know that a serious dedicaôn
to these areas brings with it many, many, many behaviour changes...)

Conclusion:

Why, oh Why did the mean, nasty JM take away our precious magick? I
so liked being a street-urchin, able to toast people from miles away
with my awesome heka-slinging abiliês...

Well, simply put, it makes the players recognize their vocaôns as
something other than a convenience. It helps dene player
personaliês. It divides roles up within the party, and gives
people a sense of purpose.

Perhaps more importantly, it makes sure that people who spend the
extra ^me, eort, and energy to take a vocaôn specically
devoted to a par^cular skill get the acknowledgement as the experts
in that skill. It takes more than a similar STEEP score to say that
you are the equal of a mage. It takes long, hard training,
dedicaôn, and eort.

Let's say you are a mage character, and you have sacriced many of
the nivy combat-abiliês simply because mages are forced to take
many interes^ng but non-useful skills for the sake of a well-rounded
ARCANE character. If a mercenary character can manage to get a STEEP
score similar to yours, and enjoys all the privileges that you do,
then what's the point of taking a Mage character? or a Priest

character?

Using this system helps us maintain the unique avour of a devoted
heka-slinger.

Thus, the soldier who dabbles in magick can happily co-exist
side-by-side with the mage who specializes in magick. They will
never be in the same league, but they can always share a certain
modicum of shared informaôn and ability. However, the mage gets to
be the expert in his eld, just like the soldier gets to be the
expert in his eld. They should compliment, not compete!!

Thanks for listening... Let me know if anybody has had similar
experiences...

Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:36:06 EST
Subject: Re: Bast

>>However, I do have a web browser, so if any of you have infomaôn on
all the site I will help hunt this info down. Well, I am the one gearing
up for play.<<

well, thanks Mike.
I didn't want to s^ck you with it, since you've got other stu to worry
about......

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:45:14 -0800
In-Reply-To: <199611212007.NAA01844@primenet.com>

I haven't found any gender dierences in my group that any two women
share, though several of the men are bloodthirsty acôn enthusiasts who
will always grab for the brass ring (in our case, it's "Push the big red
candy bukon"!) despite any possible nega^ve consequences. Some of those
_Run_ very psychological, well-thought-out games that involve far more
puzzle solving and successful interacôn than combat, but when they play...

One of the women in our group is a brutal slaughter type of player;
she always plays a very deadly character and struts it around with a chip
on its shoulder...

> > P.S. I'm also interested in hearing about the general make-up, age
> > of any gaming group. Ours is generally ve people, age 25 to 35,
> > student-academic-professional types, total accumulated gaming years
> > (when you add each individual's experiences up ) about 70 years. Let me
> > know what your groups are like.

I am somewhat overrun with gamers here in the South Bay Area, CA. We
have several dierent sets of players that intermingle for dierent
game systems, and more are always coming in. 12 real regulars, and we
each have been gaming (AFAIK) since we were barely out of the single
digit age group. Calculated roughly, that adds up to about 150 years. We
have two females in our regular group (the second one tends to play a
really tough character who restrains herself more than anything) of 12
and then about 5 other willing gamers who are female. So a bit less than
a third of the gamers I know are female.

Harold
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:18:16 -0500

<< Anyway, let me know how other people handle triggers. Do they play a
big part in your games? Do you use similar rule of thumb i.e. one
trigger per ten STEEP, or do you use completely dierent rules. >>

So far I've stuck with a 'one mobile trigger' use. As many land mines as
you'd like, but only one on your (or someone elses) person. So far it hasn't
been an issue, if it becomes one I'll look for an alterna^ve. one per ten
could get a bit overwhelming tho.

The best deterent to excessive triggers I've found is the dreaded trigger,
Trigger trap. Use the trigger cantrip to set o the alternate version of
Trigger that triggers all the Triggers in a given area. This denitely puts
the kabosh on those characters carrying mul^ple oensive cas^ngs on
Triggers. "Ok, the 37 Fireash cantrips you're carrying on coins just went
o, you're at ground zero!!!" Generally only takes once to cure the
problem.

Have fun....

Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:39:16 +0000
Subject: The Really Silly Group Combat System

The Really Silly Group Combat System

We've had a number of campaigns lately that have necessitated the use
of a fun, quick, and simple combat system that enables us to keep
track of our favourite NPC's while s^ll doing our own combat. Well,
while playing Dragon Dice one night, we decided that we'd try to
adapt a single-dice mul^-unit combat system to our Journeys system.
Here it is, let me know what you think. I know it seems overly
simplis^c at rst, but I have to admit that it's easy, fun, quick,
and tends to add a certain level of excitement to the game when there
are huge bakles going on all around you.

First, we set the STEEP scores for the par^cipants in the bakle.
The STEEP scores are mostly determined by our interpretaôn of the
soldier's abiliês, experience, age, and so on.

Name STEEP
Appren^ce 11
Recruit 21
Soldier 31
Veteran 41
Master 51

Each dicult bakle is worth one chevron for the combatant. Aver ve
bakles, the combatant moves up to the next category. Some^mes we
alter the allocaôn system if the bakle is too easy (one-sided,
quick victory, surprise, etc.). However, the chevron system (you'll
no^ce it's exactly the same as an HP geing two AP's per bakle and
spending them on combat skills) is quick, simple, and easy to keep
track of.

Second, we set up the bakle. For every pair of combatants, a
ten-sided die is
used. For really huge bakles, we ght in squads of three or ve,
and use a single die to represent the en^re squad.

Let's say there are two teams, the black and the white. The black
side is gh^ng the white side. For each pair of black/white
combatants, a d10 is rolled. On a roll of 1, the black combatant is
wounded and knocked out of the combat. On a roll of 10, the white
combatant is wounded and knocked out of the combat. Any other roll
(2 through 9) indicates a series of blows, parries, nicks, cuts,
contusions, but no really serious damage-inic^ng blows. (lots of

non-vital stu, but no ultra-vital stu!)

The jus^caôn works as follows:
If, in a regular combat, two combatants line up with STEEPs in the
30's (which is where your average grunt is) then he gets one and a
half akacks per CT, with about a 1/3 chance of hiing. When he
does hit, it has a 1/3 chance of being parried. Of the shots that
make it through, there's only a 1/10 chance of it being a real
"killing blow", and a 3/10 chance of it being a "wounding blow"...
the other shots are all non-vital.

Rather than roll all of that out, we es^mated that a decent combat
would result in a lot of parries, nicks, cuts, abrasions, footwork,
etc, but NO REAL KILLING. Each person has an equal chance of killing
the other person, but it all comes down to a series of lucky die
rolls. Thus, for each CT, there is a 1/10 chance the white guy is
knocked out of combat, a 1/10 chance the black guy is knocked out of
combat, and an 8/10 chance that the combat con^nues another round.

Most combats, therefore, will go about ve rounds before one or the
other is suciently lucky to score a "kill".

However, the chances of killing increase with certain important
factors.

For every skill level that one combatant is above the other, add one
successful number to that end of the spectrum. For example, if a
white veteran is bakling a black soldier... a roll of 1 or 2 is a
Kill for the white veteran, but a roll of 10 is needed the black
soldier to score a Kill.

This represents the increased number of akacks, increased chances to
parry, increased damage, and increased percent chance to hit that
comes along with increased STEEP scores.

As well, for every TWO on ONE situaôn, the two combatants receive a
similar bonus as above. For Example: Two black soldiers akack one
White soldier. A roll of 1 or 2 is a kill for the two black
soldiers, and a roll of 10 is a kill for the white soldier (reducing
his odds considerably, as he now only has to ght one opponent).

Finally, we may decide to give arbitrary advantages of +1 for certain
benecial circumstances. eg. superior armour and arms, mounted
cavalry vs. footsoldiers, elevated posiôn, etc.

Ways to change the system:
If you prefer a quicker bakle, make all of the bonusses cumula^ve:
Thus, two black soldiers gh^ng a white Master would mean that a
roll of 1 or 2 is a kill for the black side, and a roll of 8,9,10 is
kill for the white side.

If you prefer a slower bakle, make bonusses cancel each other out.
Thus, in the previous example, the nal NET BONUS lies with the
white master, so a roll of 1 is a kill for the black soldiers, and a
roll of 9 or 10 is a kill for the white master.

Finally, if you really want quick and cinema^c combat, use d8 or d6
instead of a d10.

I have to admit that the sta^s^cs don't run STRAIGHT down the line,
but they do run usefully close to the models we've been using.

The main advantage is that it is a quick, easy, and thoroughly
enjoyable method of doing large scale combats involving 50+
opponents. At the same ^me, the HP's are doing regular-style combat
in their area of inuence. The quick method is merely used to
determine combat well outside their sphere of control.

We rst started u^lizing this on a weekly basis when we did our
Piracy campaign. In this campaign, the smallest ship had a crew of
20, and was akacking ships with crews of 30 or 40. By the end of
the campaign, it was not uncommon to see bakles between crews of
200.

FINAL POINT!!!
People that are knocked out of combat are not necessarily DEAD!!
Instead, these people were signicantly wounded enough to become
useless, and may be dead. Since only 10% of shots are ultra-vital,
we usually give them a nal roll on a d10 to determine whether they
are killed or simply wounded/dazed/out of it.

It really is great when you see tac^cs coming into play on a large
scale. For example, the party set up a group of experienced veterans
to take the brunt of the damage while the cabin boys administered the
coup de grace'.

THE REALLY FINAL POINT!!!
In all of my readings, I've never been able to determine when it is
EXACTLY that a large group of people loses its momentum, fails its
"morale check" and decides to call it quits. I know that certain
Roman Generals set the limit at 10% losses, but others have set the
limits as high as 20 or even 30% before they begin to seriously
consider the excursion to be too costly. Thus, the JM should
determine ahead of ^me what victory condiôns must be met.

This is not said frivolously. I had the unfortunate experience to
suer for two years under a so-called "expert Game-master" who s^ll thought it
perfectly reasonable that all combats must end in one side being
completely slaughtered. All monsters, soldiers, NPC's, and so on,
fought un^l they were killed. What uker nonsense!

Conclusion:
Remember, this is meant to be a quick and easy soluôn to the
problems of mass combat. The strength of this system lies in the
fact that you can do regular combat for the HP's within their sphere
of inuence (we use miniatures and a game-mat to write out the
close-up bakle). Then, you use the dicing method to take care of
the CT for the other 20, 30, 50, or 500 combatants in the bakle.
Quickly calculate who is gh^ng whom for the second CT (i.e.
oven you won't have completely balanced sides, so determine who is
gh^ng two-on-one, and so on) and begin the whole process over
again.

I know it's not as elegant, sophis^cated, or sta^s^cally stylish
as some of the other systems, but it is quick, fun, and cinema^c.
It also gives lovingly coached NPC's a chance to go outside of
the party's sphere of inuence and cut their own swathe towards
glory.

What do you think?

Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 15:27:17 -0600
In-Reply-To: <199611220920.CAA63430@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca> from "Robert
Wol" at Nov 22, 96 02:20:38 am

>
> Triggered Cas^ngs and Readied Cas^ngs
>
> Readied cas^ngs made perfect sense to us. It seemed that you had
> really already cast the spell, spent the heka, but just lev the
> nal word unspoken. Thus, you could store up to three of these at
> one ^me (although the benets for such a thing decreased extremely
> if you had more than one readied cas^ng).

Regarding the use of Readied Cas^ngs:

One of the serious drawbacks of using Readied Cas^ngs is that if
an HP tries to u^lize a non-Readied Cas^ng while having Readied

Cas^ngs in memory, he loses the Readied Cas^ngs. On the plus side of
course, Readied Cas^ngs are much quicker to ac^vate so are useful in
situaôns where few surprises are expected. The way to keep Readied
Cas^ngs around in our campaign is to leave a "slot" open so that one can
Ready any Cas^ng then ac^vate it, generally in circumstances where
there is no rush, since the total ac^vaôn ^me is longer than normal.
This keeps the other Readied Cas^ngs s^ll in the HP's head. Also, the
number of readied cas^ngs an HP can carry is 1:5 points of MMPow, not
everyone can have three and a few rare individuals can carry four.

>
> However, it seemed that you could get almost the same eect by using
> a trigger. As well, it didn't appear that there were any limits to
> using more than one trigger. Thus, you could cast the spell, using a
> trigger to oset the actual ac^vaôn of a spell, and then a
> physical acôn or command word would cause the spell to ac^vate and
> run its normal course.

Our interpretaôn of the Trigger Eect Cas^ng is that it only operates
in a staônary area eect. Thus it is impossible to carry around items
with Triggered Cas^ngs on them. Also, magickal logic would dictate that
no more than one Trigger could operate in one segment of area, one for
every square yard for example. In game mechanics, this means that an HP
couldn't boobytrap his front door with 20 Heka Beams. Also, the
secondary eect of Trigger operates as described in the Mythus Magick
book. It can be used to ac^vate cas^ngs previously laid by Trigger
Eect, without entering the area or knowing the ac^vaôn condiôns.

> One of the most popular cas^ngs, of course, is to have a triggered
> "Quicken" Cas^ng, with the physical trigger being the drawing of
> one's weapon. Thus, when combat occurs, you draw your sword and
> "ZOOM!", you're quickened.

In our campaign, every single acôn an HP takes in combat takes a
measurable amount of ^me (counted in "tenths" as in .1 seconds). This
means that using an item with Quicken takes about .2 seconds to ac^vate.
And we can't use Trigger Eect for that purpose anyway. As I said, it
is keyed to a par^cular staônary area.

To u^lize "instant" cas^ngs placed on items, I refer you to the Grey
Dweomercraev Cas^ng Runic Symbol (Grade VI or VII) This allows the
Mage to construct a Rune that contains the power of any Cas^ng known to
the prac^ôner. The cas^ng is released upon ac^vaôn condiôns
specied by the Mage. For example, my Merchant once had Bolts of
Detonaôn. These were heavy crossbow bolts enchanted with the Rune to
contain a Heka Blast that exploded upon sucient impact of the Bolt.
This was a fairly devasta^ng weapon. Trigger eect would not have
worked, according to our interpretaôn.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 16:38:58 -0600
Subject: Re: The Trouble with Heka...
In-Reply-To: <199611221630.JAA117162@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca> from "Robert
Wol" at Nov 22, 96 09:30:28 am

>
> The Trouble with Heka...
>
> Every new character would choose dweomercraev, magick and
> apotropaism for their extra mental skills. Every character would
> select three spiritual heka-genera^ng skills as well. Finally, some
> enterprising characters would even go so far as to choose
> heka-forging as one of their extra physical skills. Thus, all
> characters would get a nice pool of heka to play around with, and a
> rela^vely similar set of magickal skills. They were all nice,
> powerful clones of the other.

Your HPs lack imaginaôn if they keep choosing the same K/S Areas.
Granted, they are very nice to have, but they also lead to a party that
is not very well rounded. Everyone in a party should complement everyone
else. Each should have their own specialty. An HP should be a complete
individual from everyone else. No two of my HP's has ever been alike. I
tend focus on one par^cular strength I want my HP to have, then build
around it. For example, the Merchant who had no Heka-Engendered skills,
so bought magickal items to compensate, or the Astrologer who prac^cally
focused on nothing BUT magick, yet he was severely hampered by his lack
of combat oriented magick and combat skill.

> And NO, to answer your quesôn before you ask it, they weren't
> excessively deterred by the AP progression penalty, being physical
> characters means you only spend 1.5 AP's to get a mental skill up by
> a point. It was a small price to pay to have a super-strong,
> super-fast, super-gh^ng WAR-WIZARD...

We have introduced a learning gradient. As the HP's become more
experienced, the amount of AP/G's needed to progress also increases.
Thus it is very slow for a Physical HP to gain Mental STEEP aver a
certain point. This also hold true for the Terâry Skills.

>
> 1. No magic areas
>
> It is interes^ng to watch tried and true and tested players falter
> when they've become too addicted to readily available cas^ngs and
> you take away their precious magick. Even the best player's skills
> become rusty when they depend on heka too much. Let's face it... all
> of us have gone through nights where every new problem becomes
> defeated by a combinaôn of nivy cas^ngs. Just make certain areas
> magick-dead, and watch the fun re-kindle

I agree that not all situaôns can be solved with magick. Some^mes
guile and trickery work twice as well. We have found that out the hard
way more than once.

> 3. Dierenâl Prociency
>
> A. FULL PRACTICE
>
> Full prac^ce is only open to people who take the vocaôn of Mage or
> Priest. The benets are only applicable to the spell area that the
> person has chosen as their main focus, including the rela^ve school
> or magick or ethos cas^ng area. Thus, the full-prac^ôner's one
> DR easier cas^ng is only applied to the single area that is the main
> focus of their life.

Do you allow the one DR bonus to General and Basic as well? If not, why
not? Anyway, among the Dweomercraev Schools, they are more like
academic subjects than a main focus. Mages choose to specialize in
Schools the way college students choose majors. It is not unheard of for
a White Mage to study Black, if only to learn how to counteract such
Cas^ngs.

> However, we've played with full-prac^ôners before... it's boring,
> boring, boring. It's too easy with a full-prac^ôner in your
> group.

Try sending Full Prac^ce EP's against the party and see how well they
fare. It is not easy at all when they have Heka Armor, Reverse Akack,
and Reverse Cas^ng all up at the same ^me.

> It's ne for THEM to be full-prac^ôners, but it takes
> away the fun if one of US is a full-prac^ôner.
>
Why? An average Full Pra^ce Mage just star^ng out will have a STEEP of
40-50 in DW and Magick. This means he can cast up to Grade VII with a DR
of Very Di. This only comes to a 10-12% chance of ever geing it o
(unless Joss is involved, of course). The HP should only have about 1 or
2 Grade VII cas^ngs in any case, while EP Full Prac^ôners can have
Grade IX at "Easy" if you want them to.

> B. Normal Prac^ôner

I think should apply to all Cas^ng Areas that come with the Vocaôn
bundle. In the case of Astrologers, for example, several of the other
K/S Areas are necessary for their business, such as Divinaôn and
Fortune-Telling, as alternate means of divining truth and interpre^ng

the future. The K/S Areas that come with the bundle are a part of
everyday use for him, including the Heka Areas. I think this applies to all
Vocaôn bundles, else why
include them at all? Similarly, they get Mys^cism at the same STEEP as
Astrology, so Mys^cism Cas^ngs would be en^tled to the Normal Praciôner
benet, using your logic.
>
> C. Hedge-Mage Level of Prociency
A hedge mage is generally those who are not formally schooled in the
intricacies of Magick. They are the scoundrels and mountebanks who
exploit others using their somewhat meager talents. They are also the
village mages who use magick to benet their communiês, such as
Herbalists, Apothecaries, Diviners, Wisemen, etc... Just because they do
not go to a dweomercraev college does not necessarily mean they are
unskilled at their
crav. A hedge wizard can be quite good without obtaining the status
reserved for the Full Prac^ôner.

However, if you are determined to use the "hedge wizard" K/S Areas as
you've outlined them, then may I suggest an alterna^ve to the DR
modier? Why not place a STEEP limit or a Cas^ng Grade limit on these
"secondary" Areas? I would allow these Areas to either max out at 10
points below the Primary Area or limit the max Grade allowable in those
areas to be 1 less than the Primary Grade. For example, an Astrologer
with 51 STEEP in Astroloy would either be limited to 41 STEEP in all
other Heka Areas (except Mys^cism, q.v.) OR limited to a maximum Cas^ng
Grade of IV in those areas. I think the DR modier is too harsh.

>
> D. Dabbler
> This is the name we have for any person who studied a non-vocaônal,
> opônal heka-cas^ng skill area. Thus, any addiônal skill that
> you pick when you are genera^ng your character IMMEDIATELY brings
> this level of prociency. You cannot change it. Dabblers suer a
> TWO DR penalty for cas^ngs in this sort of area.

I would be more inclined to use a STEEP limiter for this category, rather
than imposing a DR modier. By your logic, an HP would need a 51 STEEP
in a K/S Area to cast an "Easy" Grade I cas^ng, which doesn't make
sense. Also, an HP would have to have the equivalent of a Bachelor's
Degree (31 STEEP) to even cast a Grade I at "Hard!" Instead, I suggest a
limiter to an HP's STEEP, perhaps a dabbler
mage is unable to progress beyond Grade V cas^ngs, because the really
advanced stu is too complex for them to grasp. Or maybe the limit is
based on one's applicable trait, say 50%. In either case, the HP can get
some of the basic Cas^ngs and cast them with a reasonable degree of
success, yet the truly powerful magick is beyond them.

>
> Example: A Fortune-Teller has no chance at full-prac^ôner status
> for any of her skills, because she is neither a mage nor a priest.
> She enjoys normal prac^ôner status in her primary cas^ng area
> (namely that of fortune-telling), and casts those cas^ngs free from
> all restraint. She suers a one DR penalty whenever she tries to
> cast from her supplementary Vocaônal cas^ng areas, such as
> astrology, divinaôn, and dweomercraev. Had she taken conjuraôn
> as an addiônal skill area upon creaôn, she would suer a TWO DR
> penalty for all cas^ngs in conjuraôn, as this is simply an area
> she dabbles in outside of her vocaôn.
>
I hope she has some truly excepônal STEEPs in those "hedge mage"
Cas^ng Areas! She'll need it. She never had a chance at Full Prac^ce
anyway, since you've disallowed it for your HP's.

> 4. Magick/Dweomercraev and Religion/Priestcraev
>
> In our game, Magick is necessary to make dweomercraev funcônal, and
> religion is necessary to make priestcraev funcônal.
>
Absolutely!

> More to the point, however, if you are neither a MAGE nor a PRIEST,
> you do not enjoy a school or an ethos. You get to use the general
> tutelary cas^ngs for priestcraev, or the general cas^ngs for
> dweomercraev.

This makes no sense whatsoever. The Schools of Dweomercraev are very
much like specic disciplines of a broader spectrum. You don't just
study "Engineering", you study Electrical, Mechanical, Civil, etc...
There is a great deal in common that all engineers study, but there is
also material specic to each major. The Schools are a direct
reecôn of this. Also, anyone who enjoys the benet of Priestcraev
Cas^ngs is going to have some specic either to the Ethos or the
Pantheon (or both, depending on one's style of play). The Ethos is one's
philosophy on life. An evil assassin with priestcraev is going to
employ his cas^ngs far dierently than a kindly old herbalist. So why
not give him a few extra cas^ngs to reect this dierence in
philosophy? Neither is going to have an excepônal STEEP in
priestcraev (or they shouldn't anyway).

>
> 5. VOWS
>
> Vows always convert a skill to normal prac^ce level.
Do you also allow the bonus heka (2-7 mul^plier of STEEP)?

>
>
> Conclusion:
>
> Perhaps more importantly, it makes sure that people who spend the
> extra ^me, eort, and energy to take a vocaôn specically
> devoted to a par^cular skill get the acknowledgement as the experts
> in that skill. It takes more than a similar STEEP score to say that
> you are the equal of a mage. It takes long, hard training,
> dedicaôn, and eort.

The magickal experts in our campaign are s^ll the Mages, even though my
Cavalier has a 61 in Magick, he'll never be the equal of them, just as
the Sage is the historical expert and the Bard is the musical expert.

>
> Let's say you are a mage character, and you have sacriced many of
> the nivy combat-abiliês simply because mages are forced to take
> many interes^ng but non-useful skills for the sake of a well-rounded
> ARCANE character. If a mercenary character can manage to get a STEEP
> score similar to yours, and enjoys all the privileges that you do,
> then what's the point of taking a Mage character? or a Priest
> character?

The point of a Mage is the extra Heka (tons of it!) and the ability to
cast spells easier. Also, Full Prac^ce, because of its rarity (about 1
in 10,000) is worthy of a great deal of respect, even if the Mage only
has a 20 STEEP in Dweomercraev. The POTENTIAL for true power is s^ll
there. No non-Full Prac^ôner can ever really receive the same sort of
status a Mage and a Priest get.

Finally, if you don't want certain Vocaôns to have Magick, then just
say so. There are a few Vocaôns that have absolutely no Magick
whatsoever, so maybe you could encourage someone to play one of those.
Then they will have to rely on their wits and their skill to survive.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 09:00:20 +0000

Malcolm,

I'm sorry if I oended you by challenging the magick system as it
stands. I didn't realize that anyone would spend such a lengthy
response merely defending the exis^ng system.

Of course the system works nd, if that's the sort of game you like.

However, my PLAYERS wanted a change in the power structure far more
than I did. Aver three of them had the opportunity to play full
prac^ôners, and voluntarily re^red them each ^me, they wanted
some changes made.

As to the benets to Heka for mages, there are lots of similar ways
to get that same amount of heka.

As to our system of general dweomercraevers and priestcraevers "not
making any sense", I have to say that I'm shocked! Perhaps its the
philosopher in me, but I have to say that ANYTHING can be
raônalized and/or jusêd. My players came up with this likle twist. They
raônalized it quite happily as the fact that anybody is capable of
learning the basics, but it takes real skill/art/dedicaôn/gene^c
make-up/acts of Gods to become so akuned to these par^cular skills
as to open up the hidden mysteries of one of the par^cular schools,
or one of the ethoi.

I do apologize to anybody if challenging the' status quo' in such a
major fashion falls outside the norm. I merely presented some
answers to a problem that we've encountered a number of ^mes over
the years.

My players are very imagina^ve and crea^ve, and their characters
AFTER THE FIRST YEAR began to explore other, more mundane, avenues of
exper^se. However, in the beginning, everybody wanted to see how
the various magickal areas worked for themselves (I think this is
only natural).

So again, I apologize. I never intended anyone to have to clarify
the en^re original rules system again. I merely intended to present
an opôn that we use to see if anybody else has altered the system
somewhat.

As to the construc^ve aspects of your post, I really like the idea
of the STEEP level limits, but we had decided on the current system
instead (by vote, actually). Perhaps next ^me we'll try it your
way. I agree that it is less harsh, but I think that is the reason
we went the way we did.

Our en^re party nds the magick system too overpowering. Mage
characters run the show, and everybody else suers from a certain
degree of magickal addicôn as well. We adopted the current system
to make everybody depend on their wits again. Perhaps, in ^me,
we'll move back to a more powerful magick system again. However, for
now, my post was merely intended to show how we dealt with our
current (and I suppose I should wish as well, short-lived)
dis-enchantment with the magick system.

(PS forgive the nal pun... words are my life!)

Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 18:42:23 -0500

In a message dated 96-11-21 13:18:38 EST, rwol@MAILDROP.SRV.UALBERTA.CA
(Robert Wol) writes:

<< Does anybody else have a par^cular gender dichotomy within their
groups? I'm actually quite interested to hear about them...
>>

Well, my husband will probably write and give you the GM perspec^ve, but as
one of two women who regularly game with a core group totalling 5-6, I do
have some thoughts. I am the worst oender in my group -- an assassin in
one campaign, a werewolf in the other. "Let's take the prisoner back in to
town and turn him in." And immediately the other woman in the group and I
are conspiring to snap said prisoner's neck before we have to waste anymore
^me on him. I would have to say that we are denitely more bloody minded
as a pair than are the guys in our group. I do have a theory though. You
guys got to play shoot 'em up, kill the bad guy, etc, etc, for years. Girls
were denitely discouraged from playing anything like that. Women have a
lot of gratuitous violence that's built up in them over the years. (That's
why, when women nally snap, they go for the big gesture: seing him on
re while he's in bed, and well, I won't bring up the Bobbiks, et al. :)
)

Also, you guys probably got a lot of hacking and slashing done in D&D. Most
women probably came to the game later and maybe didn't play as much, so we
have troll hacking s^ll holds some appeal. And, while this all actually
applies just to me and I'm only theorizing in regards to other women, I know
that I lose paênce with too much puzzling and logic games. Let's get on
with the acôn! If I wanted to sit home and do puzzles, I'd have subscribed
to some games and puzzle magazine and curled up on the couch. At work, I sit
around and gure things out. Mythus is play -- I want to hunt things down,
go drinking, pick up men, haggle in the market square. Er, my character
does, that is. Our male players did remark, when comparing their pre-coed
games with the current coed games, that a lot more of the acôn seems to
take place in bars than it used to. And that there's denitely more
shopping going on (when was the last ^me your male-only players bought new
clothes 'cause they wrecked their cloaks while hun^ng the slime monster?)
and more sex. (Er, again, amongst the characters.)

Meredith
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 23:23:01 -0800
From: Jesse Roberge <nebraska@MHV.NET>

> My players are very imagina^ve and crea^ve, and their characters
> AFTER THE FIRST YEAR began to explore other, more mundane, avenues of
> exper^se. However, in the beginning, everybody wanted to see how
> the various magickal areas worked for themselves (I think this is
> only natural).

I think the crea^vity and the intelligence of the players is what causes to bugs in the rules to go full force.

> As to the construc^ve aspects of your post, I really like the idea
> of the STEEP level limits, but we had decided on the current system
> instead (by vote, actually). Perhaps next ^me we'll try it your
> way. I agree that it is less harsh, but I think that is the reason
> we went the way we did.

Actually, there are limits, but they are very generous (Cannot exceed Trait). I think the costs should be
weighted, just like it is weighted
for raising stats. If you would like limits, maybe 2-4 ^mes the stat base of the K/S area would be good,
with the actual mul^plier being 4x
for vocaôns primary trait, 3x for secondary, and 2x for the inferior trait maybe.

I don't like the armor system. It should be redesigned with actual hit locaôns (maybe with each hit
locaôn being either Ultra, Super,
Regular, or Non vital, and milding out the damage bonuses to these vunerable areas, maybe modeling
aver GURPS (since I like their system a
lot), without changing the the combat system as a whole (I like it a lot).

Anothe problem I have with the rules is the geing all the sub-areas at 50 steep with the proong of half
of your sub areas if you
specialize. This is a rather sudden increase of power. Maybe you could do 1 sub-area per 10 STEEP (No
geing all sub-areas at 50 (40) STEEP)
and specializaôn cos^ng two sub-areas, and proong sub-areas from the downward eects of
specializing cos^ng two slots as well. (EX:
Combat: Hand weapons STEEP 55=5 sub-areas. Spend 2 to specialize in 1 handed swords, two more to
proof shields from geing halved from
specializaôn, and the other one in two-handed swords at the normal 50% STEEP penalty from
specializing in 1-handed swords). Although the
potenâl power is higher, the acquisiôn of the power is much smoother.

> Our en^re party nds the magick system too overpowering. Mage
> characters run the show, and everybody else suers from a certain
> degree of magickal addicôn as well. We adopted the current system
> to make everybody depend on their wits again. Perhaps, in ^me,
> we'll move back to a more powerful magick system again. However, for
> now, my post was merely intended to show how we dealt with our
> current (and I suppose I should wish as well, short-lived)
> dis-enchantment with the magick system.

I agree also. I beleive that mages and ghters should be realatvity equal in overall power. Although
mages can pack a bigger punch, they
have a limited reserve of power that must be recharged with at least a night's rest (A ghter's power is
con^nous, with only physical factors
being the limit). Mythus mages puches are too powerful and the reserves are too large, and it's too easy
to recharge the 'Heka bakeries'.

But Aerth was designed to be a very magical world, and it is not common at all to get a HP that can't cast
spells at all. Also, Mythus runs a
much higher balance of power than AD&D, GURPS, and Rolemaster. Although this balance is shaky due
to all of the bugs in the rules (It should
have been playtested much more), it is mostly just the higher requirments of crea^vity on the GM (Some
of it could be ofseked by the
proprietary campaign seing, Aearth?) and a maker of geing used to the higher balance of power.

Actually, I read in the Aerth book, that what magic is in Aerth as is technology is in Earth. But, how could
a world funcôn with these
super-powerful people taking over the en^re world as evil tyrants. Somebody's going to fall for the
temtaôn someday.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 00:18:26 -0800
Subject: Mythus database

I'm currently making an Access database for Mythus data and characters. I have the tables nished, but
I'm geing ideas for improvements
(mostly reducing redundant data without making more tables). I aslo have a third of the character sheet
form nished. I will also be making
data-entry forms for the spells, vocaôn names, equipment, weapons, missile weapons, armor, and
character spellbooks.

I'm not sure whether or not I can s^ck through all that data entry up ahead, espeacially the spells and
the equipment. So if anyone wants to
help out in the data entry (There is a LOT of it), I'll be glad to give you a copy of the database (You can
have a copy even if you don't want
to help out).
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 02:28:38 +0000

Dear Doug, and others who have responded...

I guess I just got a likle worried that my 'helpful suggesôns' or
'alterna^ve ideas' were being taken as a 'foolishly harsh
cri^cism' of what I consider to be the best game around.

I mean it! Bar none! It's the best! And I've 'tried 'em all' (or
at least it feels like I have...

Thanks, Doug, for telling me that 'healthy debate' is allowed... I've
been on other groups where 'quesôning the status quo' was akin to
'challenging the gospel', and I was worried that I'd overstepped the
line.

By the way, I would like to point out that 2 out of 3 games we run a
"normal magick system". However, aver two games of "Heka
mega-power", we generally turn to more Indiana Jones-type "knowledge
will set you free, but s^cus will be more fun" sorts of adventures.

To answer your nal quesôn...

I am a 29 year old instructor at the U of A. My rst degree was in
gene^c engineering, and I worked as a professional virologist on
certain government projects for a while aver this project. I
declined an oppertunity to con^nue my Ph.D. in gene^cs, and aver a
few "ethical quandaries" , I found myself teaching some street-kids
in a local youth shelter. A while later, I was taking a degree in
educaôn to supplement my previous career as a researcher,
scien^st, and gene-splicer. I con^nued on with graduate school,
where I started instruc^ng at the U of A. I teach ethics and
philosophy in a professional context to educaôn students who are in
their third or fourth year. Most of my students are preparing to
graduate, and are just now beginning to get a sense in the massive
responsibiliês that they have. I also teach ANYTHING AND
EVERYTHING at a special project school for inner-city kids in the
worst secôn of Edmonton. Our kids are what you might call "high
strung", and require certain "special perspec^ves" to get through to
them. My non-educaônal past contains some interes^ng experiences
which make me uniquely qualied to teach in that environment.

So, Doug, as you can see, I spend half my ^me teaching dicult
subjects to people who nd learning easy and enjoyable, and the
other half of my ^me teaching easy and enjoyable subjects to people
who are 'dicult'. I have to admit, it keeps me busy.

As well, I play in a few bands, prac^ce various marâl arts,
knife-throwing, fencing, kendo, etc., study Eastern Philosophy (specializing in Zen
and mys^cism), and write a lot (côn, non-côn, technical,
philosophical, etc.) My thesis is 'pending', which means that I'm
one of those perfecônists who want everything 'just so'.

Anybody who wants to get any of the spreadsheets I've worked out can
nd them at a temporary web site at


Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:34:41 +0100
Subject: Re: Mythus database

At 00:18 13.11.96 -0800, you wrote:
>I'm currently making an Access database for Mythus data and characters. I
have the tables
> nished, but I'm geing ideas for improvements(mostly reducing
redundant data without
> making more tables). I aslo have a third of the character sheet form
nished. I will also
> be making data-entry forms for the spells, vocaôn names, equipment,
weapons, missile
> weapons, armor, and character spellbooks.

Hey Jesse,

that would be great! If it helps you, I have a Winword-Charsheet lis^ng
the most important tables (those the player would need) - it's exactly four
pages (= two sheets) and in german language. If you're interested, I could
send it to you (or to anyone else on the list). If you like it, I could
translate it then.

Ciao,
Joerg
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 12:18:18 -0600

Jesse Roberge wrote:
>
> I'm currently making an Access database for Mythus data and characters. I have the tables nished,
but I'm geing ideas for improvements
> (mostly reducing redundant data without making more tables). I aslo have a third of the character
sheet form nished. I will also be making
> data-entry forms for the spells, vocaôn names, equipment, weapons, missile weapons, armor, and
character spellbooks.
>
> I'm not sure whether or not I can s^ck through all that data entry up ahead, espeacially the spells and
the equipment. So if anyone wants to
> help out in the data entry (There is a LOT of it), I'll be glad to give you a copy of the database (You can
have a copy even if you don't want
> to help out).
Actually I am working on a similar project. I would love to see what
you have and see what mine is missing. (Also might want to pirate
whatever spells you have entered (: )
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:27:21 -0600
In-Reply-To: <199611231600.JAA36902@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca> from "Robert
Wol" at Nov 23, 96 09:00:20 am

>
>
> I'm sorry if I oended you by challenging the magick system as it
> stands. I didn't realize that anyone would spend such a lengthy
> response merely defending the exis^ng system.

I was not at all oended by your views on the Magick system of Mythus
and I apologize if I conveyed that impression. I was only trying to
express a dierence of opinion. I myself have many problems with the
current system, not the least of which are the many inconsistencies
within the cas^ngs themselves. The Cas^ngs contain numerous typos,
which lead to ambiguiês that are not easily resolved except by lengthy
discussion amongst JM and players. The nal decision is then
incorporated as a "House Rule." Also, the Magick Items chapter is
incredibly vague and doesn't include the secôn on Alchemical
Operaôns, which the Mythus Advanced rules promise.

>
> Of course the system works nd, if that's the sort of game you like.
>
> However, my PLAYERS wanted a change in the power structure far more
> than I did. Aver three of them had the opportunity to play full
> prac^ôners, and voluntarily re^red them each ^me, they wanted
> some changes made.

I can't say I blame your players for wan^ng to change. I some^mes wish
my own JM would scale down the power of his campaigns. He likes the high
power implicit in the system and goes out of his way to make things more
powerful. I like his storylines (usually) and he is an excellent JM, but
his concept of power is a bit skewed. He prac^cally forces us to accept
extremely potent characters because it is necessary for survival. As an
example, one of our major conicts involved akacking a Dark Elf Mage
(gray) in his own stronghold. We had a Full Prac^ce White Mage, a Full
Prac^ce Astrologer (a long story), a Cavalier, a Physical Thief, a
Mountebank, and a Dwarf (heka-forger). All but one of the HP's could
cast Reverse Akack Charm. Only the Mage could do a Reverse Cas^ng
Charm. The Drow had all kinds of Heka-Armor, R. Akack and R. Cas^ng
up. About the only one who could aect the Drow at all was the Mage.
The Astrologer fried his own soul with Mys^c Missiles, because the
en^re opôn of physically akack was denied him. The amount of power
in our group should have been able to defeat him, though not easily of
course. However, Anlah escaped, only to return in our current campaign.
Even with all the power we had (and it was oodles!!) we were completely
unable to aect our enemies.

>
> As to the benets to Heka for mages, there are lots of similar ways
> to get that same amount of heka.
True. There are many alternate ways to accumulate Heka, if only for
short periods of ^me. Resevoirs, pentacles, and my^cism crystals are
useful for long^me storage, while rituals of concentraôn are good for
short term. Addiônally, several Cas^ng areas oer the benets of a
Vow of Service, which oers an immediate 2 ^mes mul^plier of STEEP and
can eventually reach a 7 mul^plier (not easy!).
>
> As to our system of general dweomercraevers and priestcraevers "not
> making any sense", I have to say that I'm shocked! Perhaps its the
> philosopher in me, but I have to say that ANYTHING can be
> raônalized and/or jusêd.
You are right, of course. I am usually more open-minded. My own
raônalizaôn is probably just as foreign to you as yours is to me.
However, I will maintain that Priestcraev in par^cular should follow a
specic ethos, if not pantheon, as Cas^ngs in Priestcraev are
bestowed upon dedicated followers as a reward for faithful service by the
gods. The par^cular god(s) worshipped by HP's will generally have a
sphere of inuence, such as agriculture, weather, fer^lity, etc.. and
thus the Cas^ngs of Priestcraev should reect this, though all faiths
are going to have cas^ngs in common, hence Basic Priestcraev.

>
> My players are very imagina^ve and crea^ve, and their characters
> AFTER THE FIRST YEAR began to explore other, more mundane, avenues of
> exper^se. However, in the beginning, everybody wanted to see how

> the various magickal areas worked for themselves (I think this is
> only natural).

I did not mean to imply that your players were unimagina^ve. Judging by
the brief mul^-genre campaign synopsis you posted, they seem to be most
imagina^ve indeed. I thought your mul^-genre campaign sounded very
interes^ng and fun. Our own players are star^ng to follow in your
players footsteps, as we all seem to be aquiring the same bonus K/S
Areas, namely Dweomercraev, Priestcraev, and Apotropaism (all three
were chosen by my own cavalier).

>
> So again, I apologize. I never intended anyone to have to clarify
> the en^re original rules system again. I merely intended to present
> an opôn that we use to see if anybody else has altered the system
> somewhat.

We have altered the system to an almost obscene degree. Our approach was
totally opposite of yours in that we have increased the power levels
exponenâlly. Our character generaôn technique is en^re point based
and incorporates several GURPS rules u^lizing Advantages/Disadvantages
instead of Quirks/Counterquirks. We have allowed Full Prac^ce Mage or
Priest as an advantage, as well as including Full Prac^ce in several
other K/S areas. Our current campaign includes a Full Prac^ce Mage
(black), a Full Prac^ce Spellsinger, and a Full Prac^ce Mage/Priest
(white/sun). Between them they have around 7000 points of Heka, without
resevoirs. My own cavalier has a 61 Dweomercraev, and about 1850 points
of heka, fully have of which is due to his Armor which doubles as a heka
resevoir.
>
> As to the construc^ve aspects of your post, I really like the idea
> of the STEEP level limits, but we had decided on the current system
> instead (by vote, actually). Perhaps next ^me we'll try it your
> way. I agree that it is less harsh, but I think that is the reason
> we went the way we did.

I am glad you like the idea. I have thought of another alterna^ve to
your system that you might nd intriguing. You said that you wanted a
"skill-based" game instead of one based on Magick. Many of the Cas^ng
Areas include special abiliês not related to Cas^ngs. Mys^cism, for
example, allows one to have a special crystal, through which many
benets are possible. Alchemy is supposed to allow HP's to perform
special operaôns never detailed in the Mythus Magick book (as promised
in the rules book). I think these special abiliês of the
Heka-Engendered K/S Areas are vastly overlooked and underused. If you are
interested
in a fairly low powered campaign, it might be a challenge to deny the
Cas^ngs for an area altogether, instead relying on the other abiliês
the K/S Area provides. For example, an Alchemist would not have the
Alchemy cas^ngs, but would s^ll be able to mix poôns and change
physical properês of substances. A Mys^c would be unable to use the
Cas^ngs, but would s^ll have dreams and visions and be able to use his
crystal to aid the party or store heka for other cas^ngs (divinaôn
maybe). Also the Mys^c Vocaôns provide a chance (a small one) of
aquiring a psychogenic power. Psychogenic powers are not a bad way to
provide alterna^ve magick without delving into excessive heka abuse.
In one of our campaigns, we had an HP with Telepathy. This may sound
powerful, but it is exceedingly dicult to use as a psychogenic power.
The Grade IV Mys^cism cas^ng is actually easier. Our player also
forgot he had it most of the ^me, so it never became a problem. Some
K/S Areas really don't need Cas^ngs anyway. Exorcism Cas^ngs are
almost exclusively geared towards the performance of the Exorcism
ritual. You really don't need 30 cas^ngs to perform one ritual.
Fortune-telling is similar in that there are several cas^ng that
basically amount to reading Tarot cards, which can be done without
Cas^ngs anyway. Several Astrology cas^ngs could be converted into
STEEP related abiliês, similar to the Apotropaism abiliês. The whole
minor/major horoscope and chart alchem/hekaforging Cas^ngs would be good
examples of this.

> > Our en^re party nds the magick system too
overpowering.
Mage > characters run the show, and everybody else suers from a certain
> degree of magickal addicôn as well.

I think the same thing is happening to our group as well, which is
probably why we are abandoning the system next semester and switching to
something else. We s^ll like it, but my JM is kind of ^red of running
the show.

You are forgiven for the pun.

I hope this clears things up. I respect your views on the magick system,
though I don't necessarily agree with all of them. To be quite honest, I
enjoy a good debate on Magick. I rmly believe that any kind of magick
should follow some sort of logic, but everyone has their own unique brand.

Sincerely,

Malcolm Hays
mhays@umr.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 18:17:55 -0800
Reply-To: nebraska@mhv.net

> Hey Jesse,

>
> that would be great! If it helps you, I have a Winword-Charsheet lis^ng
> the most important tables (those the player would need) - it's exactly four
> pages (= two sheets) and in german language. If you're interested, I could
> send it to you (or to anyone else on the list). If you like it, I could
> translate it then.

Cool, I'll check it out. Could be a source of addiônal ideas.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 19:18:09 -0800

> Actually I am working on a similar project. I would love to see what
> you have and see what mine is missing. (Also might want to pirate
> whatever spells you have entered (:

You can take whatever you want. I think you'll get more ideas o of
the design however, since that is what i'm concentra^ng on. Hopefully
I'll be able to improt data from other peoples stu to save me
copy-from-the-book data entry.

I tried to make a 4NF database, but that would require 9-10 tables per
spellcas^ng K/S area and 12 tables for the skills and
sub-areas--(2xcharacter lis^ng+2x data lis^ng)*3 traits, and 2 tables
each (1 for character lis^ng, 1 for data) for weapons, missile
weapons, armor, equpment, quirks, and special equipment+2 more for the
character data and the extended character data.

So I went to a 3NF database reducing the requirments to 4 tables for
skills, 2 tables for spells, 2 each for weapons, missile weapons, armor,
equpment, and quirks (1 for char, 1 for data), and 2 mor for the
character data and the extended character data. This is a lot more
redundant data, so to comprimise a likle bit, I used IDs for the longer
primary keys (names) to make the redudndant elds smaller. The form
should make these invisible to the user.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 19:38:18 -0800
Subject: Re: Mythus Database

ouglas Noonan wrote:
>
> Jesse:
>
> It's nice to hear people making databases and such for Mythus. There is a
> Filemaker Pro database out there (on somebody's website. Mike Phillips'
> probably. I can help you nd it, if you want). It is done by Rick Crook
> (kelthar@aol.com) and is quite excellent. I think. It's actually 4 or 5
> les that are all supposed to be relaônal databases, but I have a tough
> ^me geing the dierent les to relate. I haven't dedicated an
> avernoon to it or anything yet, though it might be worth it. In addiôn
> to character generaôn capabiliês, the les contain complete table
> lis^ngs of all the weapons, all the cas^ngs, all K/S areas, etc. It's
> good stu, and easily exported to tab-separated text les (for impor^ng
> into Access or whatever) on my end, if you don't have Filemaker, and would
> like me to send over the data tables.

Cool, lots of stu to import to save me some data entry.

> Also, I have an Excel spreadsheet that I call "Spellbook". I originally
> created it so that heka-users could just skim through a list of cas^ngs,
> mark the ones the want, and then print just those entries they marked. The
> database has the following categories: Page, School, Grade, Cas^ng,
> Length, Heka Cost, Opônal Heka, Duraôn, Area of Eect, Range, Other,
> Notes.

This would be quite helpful as well.

> The Other category has quick notes about, for instance, what the spell can
> or can't aect. The Notes category has a brief descripôn (an average of
> 8 words, for those cas^ngs that have notes) of what the cas^ng does.
> This category is very underdeveloped, but it doesn't hurt to have.

I don't think I could use it for the database, but maybe for other
things.

> I made this le some years ago, and s^ll haven't used it. But, you are
> welcome to use it if you are interested. Of course, if and when you ever
> nish your project, I'd love to see it.

Sure, it'l be a wonderful data-entry shortcut, and many star^ng points
for many ideas.

> Unfortunately, I neither have
> Access nor am I likely to ever get it. I assume that is MS's big
> relaônal database program. Is their any way that can be made in a format
> compa^ble with other MS products (Excel) or Filemaker or something? In
> any event, let me know if I can help you track down the Filemaker databases
> or get you a copy of my Excel spreadsheet.

Actually, I don't have Access either. I use it at the college. There
is nobody that is willing to let me borrow their installaôn CD for MS
Oce, and I don't have $200-400 to buy it. Plus I only have a 386-33
w/8 megs. So it would run rather slow.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 19:54:14 -0800

>
> Jesse:
>
> It's nice to hear people making databases and such for Mythus. There is a
> Filemaker Pro database out there (on somebody's website. Mike Phillips'
> probably. I can help you nd it, if you want). It is done by Rick Crook
> (kelthar@aol.com) and is quite excellent. I think. It's actually 4 or 5
> les that are all supposed to be relaônal databases, but I have a tough
> ^me geing the dierent les to relate. I haven't dedicated an
> avernoon to it or anything yet, though it might be worth it. In addiôn
> to character generaôn capabiliês, the les contain complete table
> lis^ngs of all the weapons, all the cas^ngs, all K/S areas, etc. It's
> good stu, and easily exported to tab-separated text les (for impor^ng
> into Access or whatever) on my end, if you don't have Filemaker, and would
> like me to send over the data tables.

Cool, lots of stu to import to save me some data entry.

> Also, I have an Excel spreadsheet that I call "Spellbook". I originally
> created it so that heka-users could just skim through a list of cas^ngs,
> mark the ones the want, and then print just those entries they marked. The
> database has the following categories: Page, School, Grade, Cas^ng,
> Length, Heka Cost, Opônal Heka, Duraôn, Area of Eect, Range, Other,
> Notes.

This would be quite helpful as well.

> The Other category has quick notes about, for instance, what the spell can
> or can't aect. The Notes category has a brief descripôn (an average of
> 8 words, for those cas^ngs that have notes) of what the cas^ng does.
> This category is very underdeveloped, but it doesn't hurt to have.

I don't think I could use it for the database, but maybe for other
things.

> I made this le some years ago, and s^ll haven't used it. But, you are
> welcome to use it if you are interested. Of course, if and when you ever
> nish your project, I'd love to see it.

Sure, it'l be a wonderful data-entry shortcut, and many star^ng points
for many ideas.

> Unfortunately, I neither have

> Access nor am I likely to ever get it. I assume that is MS's big
> relaônal database program. Is their any way that can be made in a format
> compa^ble with other MS products (Excel) or Filemaker or something? In
> any event, let me know if I can help you track down the Filemaker databases
> or get you a copy of my Excel spreadsheet.

Actually, I don't have Access either. I use it at the college. There
is nobody that is willing to let me borrow their installaôn CD for MS
Oce, and I don't have $200-400 to buy it. Plus I only have a 386-33
w/8 megs. So it would run rather slow.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 19:55:39 -0800

> Actually I am working on a similar project. I would love to see what
> you have and see what mine is missing. (Also might want to pirate
> whatever spells you have entered (:

You can take whatever you want. I think you'll get more ideas o of
the design however, since that is what i'm concentra^ng on. Hopefully
I'll be able to improt data from other peoples stu to save me
copy-from-the-book data entry.

I tried to make a 4NF database, but that would require 9-10 tables per
spellcas^ng K/S area and 12 tables for the skills and
sub-areas--(2xcharacter lis^ng+2x data lis^ng)*3 traits, and 2 tables
each (1 for character lis^ng, 1 for data) for weapons, missile
weapons, armor, equpment, quirks, and special equipment+2 more for the
character data and the extended character data.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:43:17 +0000

Malcolm,

I'm glad we cleared the air. I'm sorry to hear that you are
abandoning your system in the upcoming semester. Obviously, anybody
who can write the sort of thoughul and thought-provoking responses
that you can has put a lot of ^me, eort, and energy into learning,
altering, and tailoring the current system to your own par^cular
likes and dislikes. It's too bad that that sort of energy is going
to go for naught.

Let me know what system you switch to, and let me know how things are
going. You write well, think well, and it is a pleasure
communica^ng with you.

Your friend (and fellow Mythus-enthusiast),

Rob Wol
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 18:25:53 +0000
Subject: Secret Organizaôns... the Brethren

Hi again...

The second of my secret organizaôns is the Brethren, pakerned
preky much o the idea of Immortals, as seen in the movie
"Highlander".

Millenia ago, an aging God knew his ^me was passing. This God split
his soul into mul^ple parts, and gave part of his soul to each of
100 worshippers. The God's Soul makes the mortal immune from all
forms of physical death, save through decapitaôn. Thus, characters
can "die", only to be regenerated at the rate of one damage per
hour... this way, a severely wounded 'Brethren" can remain "dead"
for quite a while, before awakening to nd him or herself quite
alive.

Killing a 'Brethren' releases the Soul, and it inhabits the closest
party or parês near the newly slain corpse. The Soul then makes
the new host or hosts immortal. Usually, single combat results in
one brethren strengthening their power by absorbing the power of
another brethren. However, as by-standers and unlucky circumstances
can oven cause the newly freed Soul to inhabit mul^ple new hosts,
over the years the number of Brethren has increased to many ^mes its
original 100.

Possession of a part of the Soul brings with it certain abiliês and
disquie^ng memories. Since the en^re personality and experiences
of the God are contained in the par^cles being hosted by mortal
vessels, the hapless mortals are oven subjected to minor personality
quirks and vague memories of a Time Long Forgoken By Men.

The God's original AVATAR had 1000 physical points, 1000 mental
points, 1000 spiritual, and a STEEP score of 100 in all skills. The
original pieces of the soul contained a bonus of 10 physical
akribute points, 10 mental, 10 spiritual, and 1 STEEP point in
each K/S area.

However, the lines have blurred over the years. Thus, "inheri^ng"
part of the Soul brings a random number of bonus STEEP or akribute
points, depending on your tastes and designs. We had a whole series
of tables designed to make it random for our nal "The Gathering"
campaign. This I leave to your own discreôn.

The point of posession of any par^cle of the Soul is to re-unite
with all other par^cles, and let the God live again. Thus, in the
end, "there can be only ONE!"

Oh yes... one nal point.

Posession of any par^cle of the Soul also changes one's percepôn
of the world, and en^tles a 'brethren' to iden^fy any other
'brethren'. A brethren's eyes do not look to fellow brethren
as they would a mere mortal. Where a mere mortal sees normal human
eyes, fellow Brethren see glowing eyes, ripe with power and hidden
Mystery. The colour of the glow indicates the character's underlying
Ethos (White is Sunlight, Black is Gloomy Darkness, Green is
Moonlight, Blue is Neutral), so that a fellow brethren may
immediately iden^fy if his newfound subject is 'friend', 'foe', or
'indierent'.

The nal Status of the Twice-Born God will be determined by the
ethos of the nal host. Thus, if a Gloomy Darkness Brethren is the
nal host, then the Twice-Born God will reign darkness and terror
over the land for all ^me to come. You get the point...Lots of
role-playing cues, and lots of player mo^vaôn...

I've played the "Final Gathering" for our group, but we oven make
our current campaigns set some^me before that gathering, and
therefore enjoy the appearance of the Brethren from ^me to ^me.

I would suggest introducing the concept in powerful NPC's rst, and
then in a future campaign, give the players the opportunity to become
brethren themselves.

In our campaign, only one player originally became a brethren, and
there was nobody to explain what had happened to him. Through
careful inves^gaôn and experimentaôn, the party discoverd his
immortal status. Through the help of Sages and Archivists, they
discovered the legends. Finally, through perserverence and luck,
they discovered like-ethos Brethren who were willing to train the
hapless new immortal. Through the course of his rst ^me 'taking
someone's head', the rest of the party were also made Brethren. This
led, through a six-month long campaign, to a nal Gathering, in
which only one survived...

It may sound a likle hokey, but it is a nice way to spice up the

background of a world. You don't have to make the players
immortal... just let them know that there are things going on behind
the scenes that they may be unaware of.

Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 18:25:52 +0000
Subject: Secret Organizaôns... the XRC

Hi again...

I oven introduce long-term, world-shaking plot points over a series
of campaigns, so that my players have a full build-up of suspense to
work with. I felt that I might give descripôns of two of my more successful
ongoing background props that each eventually evolved into
full-edged campaigns of their own. While this was the intenôn
all along, I never suspected that the campaigns would be as
successful as they were.

These two secret socieês began as extreme background plot points,
and evolved into their own separate campaigns. Use them, abuse them,
or ridicule them as you see t.

The Cross Reality Corp (a.k.a. the X-RC or XRC)

The cross-reality corp is a group of extremely powerful, mul^-genre
HP's who are based in a far ung future technological society. It
is their job to maintain the ^me-lines and police the various
dimensions for any anomolous or potenâlly disastrous situaôns,
usually resul^ng from the direct intervenôn of the Accursed.

The XRC recruits adventurers from various ^me-lines to fulll
certain specic missions that might be of cross-dimensional
importance. Recruits are kept purposefully in the dark as to the
import of their par^cular missions, as well as the ul^mate iden^ty
of the organizaôn they are working for.

Extremely competent HP's, who have shown themselves to be capable of
adap^ng to new and unusual environments, dimensions, or ^me-lines,
are recruited as full-service agents, and forever give up any and all
ês to their home dimension. They then spend the rest of eternity
(or un^l they are killed) 'gh^ng the good ght across the
dimensions'. No sooner does an XRC agent fulll his/her des^ny in
one ^me-line than they are yanked back to headquarters for
debrieng, a quick vacaôn, and another even more hazardous mission
in another dimension.

The XRC pays nothing, promotes no-one, and is basically a confusing
jumble of extremely capable "rugged individualists" from mul^ple
^me-lines, tech-levels, and experiences.

If you are a fan of "quantum leap", "The Time Police", or "sliders", then you will enjoy
some of the potenâl adventures that the XRC has to oer.

Remember... the XRC recruits only the best as temporary agents, and
only the TRULY LEGENDARY as full agents. Only full agents know of
the agency's existence... the rest are myths and legends that cross
the dimensional boundaries and driv into the sagas.

If your HP's become WAY TOO POWERFUL (for us, that means a couple of
STEEP scores in the 71 range...but you know my party likes keeping
things at a lower level of power...) then you might consider
recrui^ng them into the XRC, and go hopping across ^me-lines and
dimension. It is most enjoyable to have characters with
well-established personaliês, character traits, and sickeningly
high skills suddenly have to re-learn skills to adjust to new
tech-levels. The players don't seem to mind it, as the novelty and
usefulness of mul^-genre experienced characters far outweigh the
short-term penalty of tech-level dierences.

Two of my players have characters in the XRC. They started out as
fantasy characters (ghter and mage), moved into cyberpunk (learned
guns and computers) and ended up in Star-Wars (Jedi-knight and
starghter pilot). The combinaôn of skills that each one learned,
as well as the combinaôn of the two nal mul^-genre characters,
makes them a unique team for XRC assignments into any situaôn.

Special Note: MY XRC adventures entail entering a ^me-line naked,
with no special equipment, magickal devices, etc. Players are 'on
their own' un^l the mission is completed.

Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:08:35 +1300

Subject: Re: The Really Silly Group Combat System

>The Really Silly Group Combat System

Hi Rob

No, it's not that silly :-) The problem with massed combat is the
inordinate length of ^me it takes to resolve, and this does solve that.

Incidentally, your system brought to mind a ^me in the dim and distant
past when my brother and I would ght a series of 'round-robin'
tournaments with plas^c robots, using D6s in a similar but cruder
fashion. I'd forgoken about this un^l I read your post -- I was evidently
a wargamer then, and I didn't even know it!

Malcolm
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:07:56 +0200
In-Reply-To: <v01510111aeb6a3178b38@[205.163.40.49]> from "Douglas Noonan" at
Nov 18, 96 05:43:51 pm

> As a result of our many cross- genre gaming endeavours, my group has a
> collecôn of interes^ng resources for the Journeys campaign.
>
> 1. A complete collecôn of Mythic Masters Magazines in Electronic Form
> (which contains the HUGE weapons list and combat rules changes)

Does anybody know, is MMM public domain or not. (IIRC, somebody
said, they shouldn't be posted to list.. Conrm please...) If they are
available for copying, I'd like to see them.

> 2. A 20th century rearms system, proporônal and balanced with the
> damages of swords, knives, and spells.
> 3. A Star-Wars based weapons and armour system, proporônal and balanced
> with the damages of swords, knives, and spells.
> 4. A Complete Virtual-Reality Computer Hacking system, whereby cyberpunk
> computer deckers can inltrate and combat within enemy computer systems.
> 5. A few handy combat rules to modify and make more realis^c the combat
> system, integra^ng the MMM 30-Beat CT system and the problems of Reach and
> Weapon Damage, as well as more sub-areas for Weapons Special Skill to allow
> for disarming, theatrical combat, and so on.
> 6. A mul^-genre capable K/S system, adapted from MMM and other sources,
> so that people can roll up characters in dierent genres, tech levels, and
> so on.

All of above are something useful. Aver those addiôns,
Dangerous Journeys will become real mul^genree system, not just 'nother
fantasy system as it is now...

> 7. A Microsov Excel spreadsheet which allows you to generate and update
> characters using the Mul^-Genre k/s system, as well as calculate all Heka
> scores, eect and wound levels, as well as automa^cally calculate and
> update K/S CROSS-FEEDING!!! (It's just like Christmas when the computer
> tells you that a skill you've forgoken to maintain has gone up another
> point)

This will be nice, but would somebody store it in archieve, due
the fact, I can't yet access Excel or Word. (I'm using Unix nowadays, and
am pleased about it...)

Kautsu

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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:20:30 +0100
Subject: Re: non-vocalized cas^ngs.

Hi everybody !

Rob Wol wrote :
>Have you ever been in one of those posiôns in which you just goka
>get a cas^ng o, but your hands and feet are êd?
>Or how about being gagged? or just not wan^ng to make a lot of
>noise... (cut)
Of course we have ! And it was very nasty situaôn for the involved
player(s), and I am some^mes among the players ranks.

>In our group, we allow for non-vocalized and non-gestured cas^ngs,

>but with an addiônal penalty. ... (cut)
You can change the system any way you want if it can beker the
play. But this raises an important quesôn : how can you restrain these
damned heka-users to cast their spells if they can keep on using heka while
fully bound and gagged ?
The true quesôn is does vocalizaôn/gestual absolutely necessary
to the compleôn of a spell ? The answer could be yes and no.
No, because there are spells without true verbal component, or
without gestual (perhaps both ?). So it may seem reasonable to allow spell
use without moving nor speaking. But these are a minority among the vast
number of cas^ngs.
Yes, because if you consider the Old Master (EGG) point of view, the
breath shaped by the words of power channels the heka. The same is true for
hands/body gestual. Without these the spell will be ineec^ve and heka
would be unleashed without control. I leave you to make the consequence of
this wild heka, but I will consider something like Heka-burn, or soul/mind
damage. And if it was possible to use cas^ngs without hands/body gestual,
could you give me some reason why all Heka schools haven't yet developped a
full non-gestual magic ?
As you can guess, I'm rather on the yes side. However, you can
always allow it, but in my own I would apply a 2 DR harder rather than one
and an heka penality, something like doubling the cost. Furthermore, I will
also give dire consequences to the fail, conver^ng the heka cost of the
spell in M and S damage. This will make think the caster twice before trying
something... The use of joss could certainly help in these, so you can
always try an escape with a spell while your prefered heka user is fully bound.
All in one it will give more 'sport' and fun if you know that heka
users can be caught and imprisoned. But must be strongly guarded, because of
their s^ll possible use of heka.

>Thus, while it is always easier to get the cas^ng o using the
>pneumonic cues you've memorized, it is possible to simply "say the
>words in your head" and s^ll get the cas^ng o....(cut)
And how can you make the dierence between the remembering of a
cas^ng, and actual cas^ng ? You argue with it's another state of mind, but
I think you need a great deal of concentraôn while memorising your spells.
Heka is very powerful in Mythus, so why give it more advantages ?

>Of course, this presupposes that all cas^ngs have some form of words
>and gestures. We do this for reasons of game mechanics, game
>balance, cinema^c style, and recogniôn of "accepted" magical forms
>in actual "reference" books on magic and the arcane arts.
One last thing. Since Magic is the counter-balance of technic in our
world, do you seriousely mind to teach or even use high level mathema^cs or
physics without speaking/wri^ng ? Look at the spreading of sciences and
you'll see it's linked with the wri^ng evoluôn. In the same way, magical
cas^ngs are wriken with some ins^tuônal shapes, and they are cast with
the same restricôns. Try to expose the theory of dierenâl equaôns
without wri^ng... you will then get an idea of the diculty to cast a
spell without speaking/moving.

Oh, Rob, don't think I always disagree with you. I just have another point
of view on a few things. It's my very own opinion. I hope to be
constructrive, as you are... So keep on, you're on the right side :-)

Thank you for your listening. Comments welcome.
Goodbye.

Alain

Yes I'm french, but I do not eat frogs... euh not yet ;-)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:10:28 -0500

<< More to the point, however, if you are neither a MAGE nor a PRIEST,
> you do not enjoy a school or an ethos. You get to use the general
> tutelary cas^ngs for priestcraev, or the general cas^ngs for
> dweomercraev. >>

MMM#s 3&5(perhaps 6) cover this, its a bit confusing but..... breaks down as
follows:

A Priest or Persona with PCraev (and religion of course) gets full access to
the Basic and General Tutelary cas^ngs as well as those of their Ethos.

A Mage receives one school free at the same STEEP as General DCraev.

A non-Mage with DCraev (and Magick) can purchase a school (sub area) using
either 'elec^ve' K/S areas during character creaôn, or using APs during
game play (very expensive). However, while they can have General DCraev as
a 'primary' area, the school is always considered a 'secondary' cas^ng area.

Later

Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:17:50 -0500

<< I'm not sure whether or not I can s^ck through all that data entry up
ahead, espeacially the spells and the equipment. So if anyone wants to
help out in the data entry (There is a LOT of it), I'll be glad to give you
a copy of the database (You can have a copy even if you don't want
to help out). >>

The bulk of the data entry has been done in one form or another. I have a
FileMaker Pro database with this info in it. It can be downloaded from
Mike's Web Site.

later

Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:39:33 -0500

Robert Wol wrote:
>
> Every new character would choose dweomercraev, magick and
> apotropaism for their extra mental skills. Every character would
> select three spiritual heka-genera^ng skills as well. Finally, some
> enterprising characters would even go so far as to choose
> heka-forging as one of their extra physical skills. Thus, all
> characters would get a nice pool of heka to play around with, and a
> rela^vely similar set of magickal skills. They were all nice,
> powerful clones of the other.

It sound like the problem is with your players not the game system. I
have been GMing all types of games for too long. A GM makes up about
80%-85% of any game. This includes choosing the right players for his
games, and MYTHUS is no excepôn. In the zillion years, I nd that
most players will "MAX/MAX"(no^ce no mins here) their characters out.
Furthermore, it is up to the GM to assume control over the game and the
what the players do. Now, I have not had the problems with my player on
either coast make "powerful clones" of each other. I tend to keep beker
role players around me so this is not an issue; perhaps, they also know
where it will get them. ;>

I nd that skill based games dene characters much more, and mana
systems(heka) to be far superior of a magic system than other systems.
So much so, I replaced AD&D magic system(when I used to play) with a
mana system that I and a friend developed. Since most of us referee
games for our friends, I know it is hard at ^mes to be unbiased.
Some^mes, we let our friends talk us into things that are not good for
a campaigns. However, if you put your foot down for game con^nuity, I
believe your players will respect you for it. In short, if you are
having a problem with any game, examine your players and what you let
your players get away with before you blame a game system.

Substances over style, Challange over Monte Hall
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 09:57:32 +0000
Subject: exposure

Could someone give me a good lean on weather exposure. Both cold and
heat. My party is xing to come upon -100 degrees cold and
windchill. What damage and what protecôns would you reccommend? I
was thinking endurance or what else? Someone please give some ideas
about damage and such. Thanks
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:47:23 +0000
Subject: Mul^ple Genres... not just Mythus

For the past few weeks I've been pos^ng a few ^ny ar^cles on
dierent ideas that I've found helpful for making mult-genre
campaigns, or non-mythus genre campaigns, possible using the basic
Journeys rules.

Things seem to have slowed down a likle on this list-serv over the
weekend, and I'd like to know if anybody out there is actually
interested in this stu, s^ll?

My quesôn is... Which non-tradiônal-fantasy genres have you
played in using the Joureys rules, and which non-tradiônal-fantasy
genres would you like to see developed for the Journeys rules?

As well, if anybody out there has rules/supplements/ideas that make
these other genres possible, why not slip a repeat post onto this
thread?

It is my hope that there are other people out there with mul^-genre
aspiraôns, and maybe I can get some cool new ideas for the upcoming
campaigns I've been asked to run.

I'm not saying I'm running out of ideas... actually, aver my
Shadowrun campaign, I've got one
worked out that's set in the circles of Dante's Hell...
but I'd really like to see what people are doing, what they'd like to
do, and what others have to help them do it.

If there is anything useful that I can do to help, let me know.

Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:47:22 +0000

Hi Everybody (especially Alain...)

I like your ideas for the non-vocalized cas^ngs. Obviously, in my
universe, we tend to do things a likle dierently, but you've made
some really valuable suggesôns.

I'm s^ll not sure I agree with your points about needing to go
through the moôns to get it right... Heinlein said he couldn't
trust anybody who couldn't integrate in his head, and my
supervisor/mentor keeps menôning the importance of complete
visualizaôn of abstract philosophical arguments before even opening
my mouth during my oral exams... I guess I just have an easier ^me
with the concept of doing it "without memory aids" and simply relying
on the "internal mechanisms of percepôn".

However, if you take the verbal and gestural components as something
other than simple memory aids (mnemonics, etc.) and you make them a
relevant component of spell-cas^ng (you menôned the 'breath of the
caster focusing the heka-ow, etc.), then your comments make a great
deal of sense! Indeed, they would make more sense than my system,
and I don't think I'd even allow players the opôn of non-vocalized
cas^ngs.

As to the failure penalty... you know, I think I'm going to adopt it!
I'm sure my players will love it! Imagine the "chutzpah" it would
take to do a dangerously wild non-vocalized, non-gestural cas^ng
when you 'really need it'...

Finally, we've managed to capture mages (and/or been captured
ourselves...) many a ^me, and never have been able to nd anybody
stupid enough not to test for heka potenâl and post a
heka-sense^ve guard on us. However, you're right... Heka-slingers
should be 'catch-able' and 'keep-able'.

Thanks for the advice. I'm sorry if I have seemed overly sensi^ve
to cri^cism recently. I'm fairly sure that that is not my normal
disposiôn. I admit to undergoing quite an interes^ng "private
ow" of e-mail...
So please... FEEL FREE to make helpful suggesôns...
they can only make the system beker.

Thanks in advance...
Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 01:08:14 +0000

Hi everybody (and especially Mike...)

Perhaps we run slightly dierent gaming styles. I wasn't 'blaming
the system', as I feel it is bar-none the best system I've ever
found. I mean it! I just have a likle problem with extremely
powerful characters in an extremely powerful gaming system.

Please note, that I claried this by explaining the the MAX/MAX
problem you described was only problema^c for about the rst year
of campaigns. Aver that, we all got bored with games involving
supermen/women. Instead, people sekled into specialty roles... but
more accurately, they sekled into specialty personaliês and unique
characters.

My players are the ones who asked for the rules on specializaôn to
be taken out, as well as the rules on Full-Prac^ce. Oh, they're
more than willing to take on an EVIL full-prac^ôner (they demand
it, actually... the easy victory is worthless to them...), but they
don't want any of US to be full-prac^ôners.

As well, they are the ones who have expressed displeasure with the
magick system's ready access to cas^ngs for non-vocaônal areas.
They felt that it detracted from the game in general if magick wasn't
a likle more 'special and rare' than it was in the core game system.

So, I hope that I'm mee^ng their wishes, and I was simply passing on
the systems that we've adopted as a whole to meet with some of our
passing fancies.

Remember, we run 2 or every 3 games in a 'normal' magick system.
Then we generally run a 'low-magick' game as a change of pace.

As well, I guess my problem is that we run a very democra^c gaming
group. We never have such a thing as a 'rules dispute' or 'game
lawyers'. Instead, for us, gaming is a heavily social situaôn.
The GM has put a lot of ^me and eort into making the session
enjoyable for everybody, and everybody shows their support by making
his/her job as easy as possible. Policy is set by the group as a
whole, and then MY job is simply to remind them what that policy was.

I've never 'let my players get away' with anything, seeing as we
generally police ourselves as a group. I've never had a rule
disputed, a decision balked at, or any player-misfortune challenged.

Thus, for our game, the GM is denitely NOT 85% of the game.
I supply the plots, but THEY supply the true 'magic'. If it wasn't
for them, I don't think we would have had some of the truly unique
and crea^ve games that we have.

Perhaps our games could be beker, more realis^c, and more exci^ng
with a stronger hand at the ^ller... but I don't think that it meshes with
our game style. With over 70 years of gaming experience spread
throughtout our group, in over 50 dierent
game systems, we've all become more comfortable with a player-driven
style. As well, the fact that we rotate JM's on a regular basis
makes sure that we never take advantage of each other's generosity,
nor forget the eort that our friends put forth in an akempt to
help us have fun.

BTW... interes^ng quote in your signature... are you aware that
Socrates charge democracy with being "...the tyrrany of the
mediocre?" : - )

Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:04:38 +0000
Subject: Re: Mul^ple Genres... not just Mythus
In-Reply-To: <199611260747.AAA75434@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca>

On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Robert Wol wrote:

> My quesôn is... Which non-tradiônal-fantasy genres have you
> played in using the Joureys rules, and which non-tradiônal-fantasy
> genres would you like to see developed for the Journeys rules?

I have run (using Mythus Prime, since it's *much* faster to adapt) a
future/griky game (BUGHUNTERS, conversions on my web page) and a far
future fantasy game (based very loosely on Once & Future King, also an
Amazing Engine book), in which the gene^cally-engineered knights were
riding hoversteeds in their plas^plate and weilding laser-edged swords.
Rather a lot of fun ;-)

I also tried a low-magic game, but that didn't work out quite as well.
Cuing the magic down *too* far makes for a deadly, slow-healing game.

> It is my hope that there are other people out there with mul^-genre
> aspiraôns, and maybe I can get some cool new ideas for the upcoming
> campaigns I've been asked to run.

Yeah! :-) I had a game plan, once, which would have meshed the
Changeling Weird Science-Fantasy with Ravenlov, AErth, and Mystara, with
a dash of Unhallowed for fun..... Unfortunately, the game sort of
petered out.

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 07:29:52 -0600

>As well, if anybody out there has rules/supplements/ideas that make
>these other genres possible, why not slip a repeat post onto this
>thread?

OK. I'll bite. My shameless repeat plug goes out for my "Maximus" rules,
a cluster of rules extensions o the basic Mythus system, designed to
stretch the fantasy genre to overlap the Superhero/comic-book genre (a la
Marvel Super Heroes). Even if you're not terribly interested in running
green-skinned behemoths as HPs, it might s^ll be of use. I've created
tables which give players an idea of where their Akribute scores would
rank against popular other characters from movies, etc. (Plus, I've made
some character generaôn rules for non-human body types, which might be
useful in EP or OP creaôn.)

As a small sample from the Mental table:

M Akr. Descripôn Example
... ..... ...
21-23 Solves Rubik's cube, memorizes pi and poetry. MacGyver
24-27 World class. Nobel laureate. Genius. Egon, Galileo
28-30 Beyond 'genius'. Invents technology and theory. Nobel, Curie
31-35 Supra-genius. Can change the face of the world Eddie Fisher,
Pythagoras, DeCartes
36-40 Max. human potenâl. Memorize phone books, knows
Chaos. Rain Man, Einstein
41-50 Knows/is alien intelligence. Beyond human capacity for
recall. HAL
.... ..... ....

The outline for the website is as follows:

Core Rules
Akributes
Modiers
CHARACTER GENERATION
Game Mechanics
Combat
Powers
Healing
Material Strength
Sample Maximus HPs
Marvel/Mythus Conversions

That will do it for my plug. Of course, I'd love feedback. And,
naturally, I'd like to hear about other genre systems out there. If you're
s^ll interested, the address for the Maximus rules is:

hkp://www.mcn.net/~free/DN/Mythus/Mythus.html

Happy gaming,

-Doug

Doug Noonan
free@mcn.net
Bozeman, MT
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:58:24 +0100

Hi !

Rob,
Your campaign has the taste you'll give it. If you choose a world with lots
of heka and pracônners at every street corner, don't blame the rules.
There are many ways to restrict heka use. First, where did your HP learnt
their heka K/S ? In Aerth milieu, there are states and countries known to
have great heka schools. This knowledge is for JM and not every HP will have
the whole informaôn. And when HP learn where they can aquire new K/S or
improve their STEEP, the academy can denie teaching them their secrets,
require some service beforehand or demand such fees than your players can't
aord it. This part is in YOUR capable hands, and whatever an HP does, the
decision is yours. So you can control the rate at which HP progress in heka-use.
Of course, full prac^ônners or members of a par^cular school/ethos will
have an easier access to new and higher grade cas^ngs. These HP must in
turn keep their spells a secret. Failure to follow rules of an
academy/school results in being 'cast out'. Game balance is at this price.
It's also your responsability make sure that an HP doesn't imbalance your
campaign. As you said, your players quickly bored of such power-play. So,
slow down the progression of yours HP, and make sure that new cas^ngs are
among the greatest treasures for prac^ônners. We'll see if your
heka-using mercenary will s^ll go on magical studies if he has no spells,
and nd nowhere to learn them.
The rules are what you do with them.

Macolm,
You make sense in your answer to Rob. You said : ' I some^mes wish
my own JM would scale down the power of his campaigns.(snip) He prac^cally
forces us to accept extremely potent characters because it is necessary for
survival'.
It's a maker to be solved between the JM and the players. In Mythus Magic
is writen that Aerth is an highly magical milieu. But it's also said (p5-6)
that roughly 1 individual in 100 is Heka-able and only 1 in 1000 have large
amount of heka, 1 in 10000 can draw heka from 2 traits and 1 in 100000 from
the 3 traits. Thus the bulk of heka-users is made of part-prac^ônners,
minor tricksters, village healers/herbalists and really potent casters are
rare. The high level of magic come from the fact that all cas^ng grades are
allowed in Aerth and that lots of individuals are heka-able (but not full
prac^ônners !).

All this reminds me old ^mes, when we played AD&D (I s^ll play AD&D !). We
had characters with lots of powers, magic items and tons of gold. I became
bored of such super-power play and I began a new campaign. I struck to the
rules and used my mind and logic to esh out the spirit of the game. I
limited the number of magic items and made sure that MU/Clerics should have
hard ^mes with their spells and material component. I just changed the
value of the gold piece (to limit inaôn) to a 1:50 raô, so gold was
truly rare (and thus has value). I ran the game over 6 years and the players
were very pleased the way their characters grew in power : they were quite
potent (about 9th level) and had really a life of their own, with very rich
and developped background. As I said, I changed nothing to the rules, and it
all ran smoothly.

I suggest JM to not give up all their secrets. The discovery of the rules
(new K/S, cas^ngs,...) is like magic for the players. Of course seasonned
players have uncovered many 'secrets'. If you disallow random perusal of the
rule book, you can really keep on your players being hungry for knowledge.
Setne novels should give you the way great full-pracônners use heka. Setne
is a very powerful individual, but you never see him tossing heka blas^ng
cas^ngs like a mad. This make sense, as great spell-users are watched by
their enemies and overuse of heka will surely unwanted akenôn at the
worst ^me !
The world my be seen as a whole, and the HP must t to the general scheme.
That 's what make the dierence between a successful and a boring campaign.

Personnally, I think HP should have an evoluôn such as becoming
powerful/known/prospect in 2-3 years of gaming (let's say about 10 hrs
hard-gaming session every other week). Of course some HP can go up more
quickly or slowly, but JMs should consider the evoluôn rate of their
players and adjust AP awards accordingly. One more ^me, it's my feeling,
it's the way I like to play. But I noted that most players where more
akached to the characters that gave them hard ^mes, than to characters
that had an 'easy life' and rapid progression.

Thanks for listening. Comments welcome.
Bye

Alain
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:50:02 +0000
Subject: What are Your limits...

Hi, all...

I've been reading a couple of posts directed at things I've been
wri^ng, and I keep hearing the same thing... the rules are what you
make of them...the JM has the nal word..change the accessibility of
these powerful elements....all preky elementary

stu, but some^mes it's nice to get a 'refresher course'. We do
all of those things, but we ALSO try to nd 'plug-in' rules
addiôns for the core rules system to make it suit our style...

I'm s^ll not sure, judging from the wording of responses, that
people realized that we run a preky 'normal campaign', and only make
major revisions for only about 1/3 of our games, just to keep things
interes^ng.

However, what it DID point out ( apart from the fact that" a likle
communicaôn is a dangerous thing") is that dierent groups have
OBVIOUS dierent levels as to what the rela^ve distribuôn of
power can be and s^ll be a fun world to play in.

Here's what I'm talking about.

Most of my players' concerns center around the fact that they feel
ne when akacked by a full-prac^ôner enemy character, but a full prac^ôner
within the body of the group is preky boring. I mean, "let's let
Merlin over there kill the 30 guards while we sit back and watch..."

Therefore, the REAL quesôn is not 'the trouble with heka' or 'some
extra combat-rule suggesôns'... whatever the underlying issue is, it should focus
on people's power level within their game. Oh, I know that the rules
can be adjusted to t any style, and it's a JM's responsibility to
monitor and guide the development of HP's, etc. But let's talk about
something that we didn't learn 'at our grandmother's knee'...

Here's the underlying issue...

What level of power do your gamers like to game at?

1. High Fantasy

Ever read Fard and the Grey Mouser? In their rst story together,
two hapless thieves take our an en^re thieves guild by themselves.
Fard, or Conan, would think nothing of taking on 20 guys at once.
How about Merlin, and the Knights of the Round Table? These guys
could take on overwhelming odds and s^ll wind up smelling like a
Rose (Rosecruix?)!

This reminds me a lot of the old AD&D days when a party of 6
characters could take on 100 Orcs and survive.

I guess I'd say that the average STEEP in your primary k/s area
(combat if you're a ghter, dweomercraev if you're a mage) would be
about 71, with a high around 91, aver which re^rement is in store.
These guys really know their stu!!

I guess I'd also make a nod towards any Superhero type campaign here,
but that's really a style all unto itself. I mean, Superman should
be able to take out 100 'normal people'.

High fantasy simply puts 'legendary' gures within the grasp of players. These guys do
things on a grand and grandiose level.

The Necropolis campaign is set at this level of power.

In the world of Aerth, magick is supposed to replace technology.
From what I gather, the core mythus rules aim towards this level of
play... and the vast majority of players like this style of gaming.
That's ne with us... we run a game like this once in a while for
fun, too!

2. Medium Fantasy:

Indiana Jones is simply VERY good and VERY lucky! While he is a
'legend' of sorts, he'd never take on more than 6 Nazi stormtroopers
at a ^me! Oh, he can EVENTUALLY wind up taking out MUCH MORE than
that, but he does this through guile, stealth, and most of all, LUCK!

My guess is that the average STEEP level in HP's Primary K/S area
would be about 61, with a high around 81, aver which re^rement
seems the only course of acôn.

Medium fantasy means that you can't take on those 100 Orcs, but a
party of 10 could take on a party of 50, and make it through (but
just barely...) Personally, a good ghter could take on 6:1 odds,
but he'd be pushing it right to the max!

2. Low Fantasy:

I used to prac^ce a black-belt Kata in which I was supposed to take
on ve other people. The Kata, when done in conjuncôn with the
other people, always showed me that the situaôn was virtually
hopeless! I've managed to take on 3 other people in a Kumite, for 1
minute, but aver that, I was ready to die from exhausôn, and they
were s^ll not 'dead' by tournament rules. The best I ever saw (and
I've seen some good ones...Olympic level and such...) was somebody
who could actually 'kill' the 3 other people, but he could never take out 5 or 6!
Similarly, when I was fencing, I qualied for the Naônals. The
guys there could take out 3 'normal' fencers, but could never take
out 5 or 6.

Average Steep levels in primary K/S area in a low-fantasy seing
would be about 46, with a high about 71. People re^re aver 71,
because they're just Too Damned Good at their job to be fun anymore.

In the "Guardians of the Flame" Books, or similar series, a ghter
knows he's had it if he has to take on 5:1 odds in a straight ght.

3:1 is doable, but 2:1 is far, far preferable. James Bond is in this
category. Mission Impossible is in this category. Lethal Weapon is
in this category.

Magic is something that can assist in , but not decide, the outcome
of a bakle. In this type of fantasy campaign, characters get to do
all of the same things as in the other campaigns, but they are
constantly under the threat of immenent demise!

It has been commented that a low magick campaign tends to make for a
very deadly and slow healing game. You Bet!! If you take a serious
wound, the lack of readily available magick means that you're slowed
down for about a week. A near fatal wound knocks you out for about a
month, unless you can nd somebody who has insight into the
Arcane...

Conclusion and Request:

In our gaming sessions, we run a medium fantasy seing, with a
low-fantasy seing about one in every three games. Characters tend
to re^re voluntarily when their STEEP scores reach the 71 level. We
nd that characters with those high ability scores are just so much
more capable than lower-ability characters that they overpower the
game, and are primarily boring to play.

These 'legendary characters' can go and do other
things...that's why we run an XRC campaign for re^red characters
with primary STEEPs in the 70's every blue-moon. This helps us get the juices
owing with a 'high-fantasy' campaign. We just prefer it, on a
regular basis, to be tough, rough, and dangerous, with immenent demise
constantly on our minds... leave high fantasy for the occasional campaign.

However, it wasn't always this way for us, and it shouldn't be this
way for everybody!

I'm curious as to what level of power people play at comfortably?
Please write back with a gues^mate of the approximate level of power
people do the majority of their gaming at.

What are your average STEEP scores? When do you re^re characters?
What odds are 'too risky'? How many enemy can you take on in a
straight up ght?

This is not simply an idle quesôn. It is obvious that many of my
gaming suggesôns are geared towards powering down certain facets of
the game, while some others are geared towards keeping them at a
high-level of fantasy power. I simply wish to know what people want,
so that I can reach a beker understanding of what I should post...

Thanks in advance...

Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:29:03 -0600
Subject: Re: What are Your limits...

>However, what it DID point out ( apart from the fact that" a likle
>communicaôn is a dangerous thing") is that dierent groups have
>OBVIOUS dierent levels as to what the rela^ve distribuôn of
>power can be and s^ll be a fun world to play in.

I agree very much with this statement.

>Here's what I'm talking about.
>
>Most of my players' concerns center around the fact that they feel
>ne when akacked by a full-prac^ôner enemy character, but a full
prac^ôner
>within the body of the group is preky boring. I mean, "let's let
>Merlin over there kill the 30 guards while we sit back and watch..."

Our group (Malcolm Hayes and mine) really does not like taking on full pracs
even with a few in our own party. Personally I nd full pracs a bit of a
boring because of the variety and power of thier spells, but I have yet to
see a single mage take out a huge number in combat. The spells either are
not there, take way too much ^me(usually) or way too much energy. Anyway a
good ghter in our games can drop about 8 people in a CT. But we do play
high fantasy.

>Therefore, the REAL quesôn is not 'the trouble with heka' or 'some
>extra combat-rule suggesôns'... whatever the underlying issue is, it
should focus
>on people's power level within their game. Oh, I know that the rules
>can be adjusted to t any style, and it's a JM's responsibility to
>monitor and guide the development of HP's, etc. But let's talk about
>something that we didn't learn 'at our grandmother's knee'...

Yes I have no^ced this for about 2 years on this list. Most play medium to
low level games with a few at high and only our games at what I would call
super-high. But this is just the way we are having fun.

>In the world of Aerth, magick is supposed to replace technology.
>From what I gather, the core mythus rules aim towards this level of
>play... and the vast majority of players like this style of gaming.
>That's ne with us... we run a game like this once in a while for
>fun, too!

This has been our general take on the world. It can (I think) support just
about all styles of play. The most important thing is the star^ng levels of
STEEP. Also playing less well to do characters can really help. Our campaign
has an average SEC of 8-9. If played at SEC of 3-5 there will be less money
and less ability to produce realis^c high power characters.

>2. Low Fantasy:
>
>I used to prac^ce a black-belt Kata in which I was supposed to take
>on ve other people. The Kata, when done in conjuncôn with the
>other people, always showed me that the situaôn was virtually
>hopeless! I've managed to take on 3 other people in a Kumite, for 1
>minute, but aver that, I was ready to die from exhausôn, and they
>were s^ll not 'dead' by tournament rules. The best I ever saw (and
>I've seen some good ones...Olympic level and such...) was somebody
> who could actually 'kill' the 3 other people, but he could never take out
5 or 6!
>Similarly, when I was fencing, I qualied for the Naônals. The
>guys there could take out 3 'normal' fencers, but could never take
>out 5 or 6.

I imagine that the most important thing is the rela^ve skill. A very highly
skilled ghter can take on a small (3-6) number of rela^vely unskilled
people. But as soon as they become skilled (especialy at gh^ng in a
group) they can become deadly fast. Mostly in the Super-high campaign of
ours we are not scarred of the less skilled but the equally skilled are
people to avoid and in a ght all tricks are used.

>Magic is something that can assist in , but not decide, the outcome
>of a bakle. In this type of fantasy campaign, characters get to do
>all of the same things as in the other campaigns, but they are
>constantly under the threat of immenent demise!

At lower steeps and social levels this is very true. For instance thier is
Thieves World, low fantasy but with a good bit of magick running around.
Don't immediately think low fantasy means low magick just think low
availability.

>It has been commented that a low magick campaign tends to make for a
>very deadly and slow healing game. You Bet!! If you take a serious
>wound, the lack of readily available magick means that you're slowed
>down for about a week. A near fatal wound knocks you out for about a
>month, unless you can nd somebody who has insight into the
>Arcane...

DJ does do long long healling very well.

> I'm curious as to what level of power people play at comfortably?
>Please write back with a gues^mate of the approximate level of power
>people do the majority of their gaming at.
>
> What are your average STEEP scores? When do you re^re characters?
> What odds are 'too risky'? How many enemy can you take on in a
>straight up ght?

Average over 60 in primary areas except for the sage who is in the over 50
in many areas. Up to 80 for the true masters. Re^rement is not an opôn in
this campaign but in previous re^rement came more when there goals were
met. For instance when my montebank Rustaph has accumulated oh 2 Million
Bucs for various services to the crown. (Oh and the marriage thing kinda
inuenced it as well) For the current prophecy game there are ot odd 'too
risky' but that is because of that prophecy thing. As too how many enemies,
well one drow warship was a ê and two goblin warships was a win for us.

Rob
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:43:04 +0100

Hello to everyone !
Jesse Roberge wrote :
>I agree also. I beleive that mages and ghters should be realatvity equal
in overall power.
I don't think so. Gygax himself said it for AD&D and it seems this
is roughly the same game balance. Mages are the most powerful characters,
specially at high STEEP levels with numerous cas^ngs. On this par^cular
topic, the balance lies upon spells and material availability. Make them
easy to nd and it's like you make +30 armors/weapons as common as normal ones.

>Although mages can pack a bigger punch, they
>have a limited reserve of power that must be recharged with at least a
night's rest (A ghter's power is con^nous, with only physical factors

>being the limit). Mythus mages puches are too powerful and the reserves
are too large, and it's too easy to recharge the 'Heka bakeries'.
Remember, the more heka you have, themore ^me you'll need to
recharge your pool. Clever heka-users will also make sure to save some heka,
'just in case'. If they do not, teach them the lesson by ambushing them with
tough bandits or mercenaries and later akack with the evil spell user which
paid for the ambush. The heka-using HP will certainly curse themselves to
have wasted so much heka on the rst opponents.

>But Aerth was designed to be a very magical world, and it is not common at
>all to get a HP that can't cast spells at all.
Yes, but I remember you that HP are 'above the norm' and, as such,
have excepônnal abiliês. This does not imply that all other individuals
of Aerth also have these powers (see above).

>Also, Mythus runs a much higher balance of power than AD&D, GURPS,
>and Rolemaster.
I agree with you for the rst two, but not for the last. Magic is
more powerful in RM than in Mythus, and its abuse more devasta^ng at high
level.

>Although this balance is shaky due to all of the bugs in the
>rules (It should have been playtested much more), it is mostly just the higher
>requirments of crea^vity on the GM (Some of it could be ofseked by the
>proprietary campaign seing, Aearth?) and a maker of geing used to the
higher balance of power.
I think we will need more GM-tes^ng before involving players in a
campaign ! Either my english was badly poor or you have not read the same
Aerth tome as me, but what make you think that Aerth is guilty for heka abuse ?

>Actually, I read in the Aerth book, that what magic is in Aerth as is
>technology is in Earth. But, how could a world funcôn with these
>super-powerful people taking over the en^re world as evil tyrants.
>Somebody's going to fall for the temtaôn someday.
Not at all. Some states of Aerth are ruled by heka-tyrans, but not
all of them. The magic/technology image is very good. Our modern world is
ruled by technology. Do you imagine a world without cars, plane, tv, phone
or computers? A world without electricity ! I think humanity would be
greatly wounded and helpless without technology. Sciences and technics, are
ever present in our everyday life. Does this make scien^sts dictators ?
Indeed, we are the slaves of the technology, but we do not ght against
technologists.
The same is true for Aerth and Heka. People need (minor) heka in their
everyday life, to predict weather, to heal wounds, diseases or poisoning, to
help repairs, construcôn, communicaôn... Most heka-user have a role to
play in this society, but they are not oven upon head of the state. Well,
perhaps they are the power behind the throne, but that's also true on Earth !
Any comments ?
Bye.
Alain
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:05:32 +0100

Rob wrote :
>For the past few weeks I've been pos^ng a few ^ny ar^cles on
>dierent ideas that I've found helpful for making mult-genre
>campaigns, or non-mythus genre campaigns, possible using the basic
>Journeys rules.
Yeah, it was great !

>Things seem to have slowed down a likle on this list-serv over the
>weekend, and I'd like to know if anybody out there is actually
>interested in this stu, s^ll ?
Of course. Do you plan to write down the whole story ? I know it's
not a usual medieval campaign type scenario, and it will be dicult to
insert in an exis^ng long term campaign. But it will make a great scenario
by itself, with mul^ple variaôns according to the worlds/themes explored
by the HP.

>My quesôn is... Which non-tradiônal-fantasy genres have you
>played in using the Joureys rules, and which non-tradiônal-fantasy
>genres would you like to see developed for the Journeys rules?
Sorry Rob, but I developped none. I would like high science-côn
(in a far future with an Hyperion or Dune background) and modern with ETs or
strange stories (X-les genre ;-) and I liked the In Nomine genre (actually
I play In Nomine Satanis/Magna Veritas).

>As well, if anybody out there has rules/supplements/ideas that make
>these other genres possible, why not slip a repeat post onto this
>thread ?
>It is my hope that there are other people out there with mul^-genre
>aspiraôns, and maybe I can get some cool new ideas for the upcoming
>campaigns I've been asked to run.
Try an X-les genre, with HP hunted down by government agents to
get the secret of their magic, mixed with ET and UFO cases...
Hyperion or Dunes are good inspiraônal sources, and there are some
mysteries in which the HP can nd a place.
Hope it helps.

Bye
Alain
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:16:03 -0500

In-Reply-To: <9611261905.AA26380@unimeca.univ-mrs.fr>

Well....since peolple have menôned science côn: My gaming
group wrote a science côn system a while ago. It's not DJ, but I think
conver^ng it would be quite feasible, and if people are interested in it,
I'd be willing to put ^me and eort into it.
Warning: at the moment, it's extremely crude. However, everything
that we wrote down is at hkp://wso.williams.edu/~chagenbu/sci
Let me know what you think - if there's interest in turning this
into a full-edged genre, revisions will begin apace!
Oh, and I do have permission from my group to use this stu, just
to clarify.

-chuck
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:48:27 +0000
Subject: level of play

My campaign consists of about medium level of fantasy. Some powerful
magic with very tough warriors. Aver about 4 months of heavy
playing(16, 8-10 hour sessions) my party had an average steep in
there main k/s's of 80 or so. The whole party ended up dying except
one when they lev a dark wizard to his own devices. They never
tracked him down aver they ruined his life by destroying his heka
resovoir. Anyway I am now going with a very primi^ve world where
the gods are highly interac^ve. We'll see.

Randy
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:48:27 +0000

Rob I like the idea also of a sci-, x-les or even stars wars set
up. So go on with your self, I'm listening.

Randy
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:06:18 -0600

Subject: Re: What are Your limits...?
In-Reply-To: <199611261750.KAA39634@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca> from "Robert
Wol" at Nov 26, 96 10:50:02 am

> 2. Low Fantasy:
>
> Average Steep levels in primary K/S area in a low-fantasy seing
> would be about 46, with a high about 71. People re^re aver 71,
> because they're just Too Damned Good at their job to be fun anymore.
>
> In the "Guardians of the Flame" Books, or similar series, a ghter
> knows he's had it if he has to take on 5:1 odds in a straight ght.
> 3:1 is doable, but 2:1 is far, far preferable. James Bond is in this
> category. Mission Impossible is in this category. Lethal Weapon is
> in this category.
>
> Magic is something that can assist in , but not decide, the outcome
> of a bakle. In this type of fantasy campaign, characters get to do
> all of the same things as in the other campaigns, but they are
> constantly under the threat of immenent demise!

I usually try to run Low Fantasy campaigns. Since none have run so long
that anyone has goken really high STEEPs (over 50?) we've never felt
we needed to re^re anyone. I am thinking about wri^ng up the Grande
Campiagn that never was, and I suspect that at some point the HPs would
need really high STEEP in that one, but it ended shortly before it really
took o.

I would trade places between Indiana Jones and James Bond in your scale.
I think James Bond is Middle, Indiana, Low. :)

Dan.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 04:30:22 -0500
Subject: Re: exposure

Look in the rst Mythus book, in the secôn on addiônal damage types just
aver the armor lis^ngs. I don't have a book here at work with me, but I
think it is around page 290?

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:07:13 +0200

In-Reply-To: <199611260747.AAA75434@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca> from "Robert
Wol" at Nov 26, 96 00:47:23 am

> For the past few weeks I've been pos^ng a few ^ny ar^cles on
> dierent ideas that I've found helpful for making mult-genre
> campaigns, or non-mythus genre campaigns, possible using the basic
> Journeys rules.

Your ideas about magic were interes^ng, mostly usable for
non-AErth campaigns... I think they were quite good, at least as a tools
for JM developing their campaigns.

> Things seem to have slowed down a likle on this list-serv over the
> weekend, and I'd like to know if anybody out there is actually
> interested in this stu, s^ll?

I'd like to see at least StarWars addiôns. (I'm refereeing
StarWars tramp-freighter campaign using StarWars RPG, 1st ediôn, but
some other system would suit it beker, IMHO) Also sci-rules would be
quite nice.


I'm reading DeathGate cycle-books (book serie by Margaret Weis and
Hickman, authors of DragonLance Cronicles and Legends, both are excellet
books built over AD&D world, imho.) and I'd like to see rules for both
Patryn and Sartan rune-magic in Dangerous Journeys. (DeathGate is _not_
built over AD&D, characters don't have any classes)
The most interes^ng part of the rst two books was appendix. (In
rst book it described Sartan rune-magic and in second Patryn-magic. If
you want, I'll try to describe both types of runic magic to list. (I don't
have rules for them, just descripôns wriken by authors of DeathGate
cycle...)

> As well, if anybody out there has rules/supplements/ideas that make
> these other genres possible, why not slip a repeat post onto this
> thread?

I also made my suggesôn above :>

Kautsu

------------------------------------------------------------------------Ani Kauâinen Student of computer science at University of Turku
Pyydysmaenê 19
20660 LITTOINEN
FINLAND
------------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:47:07 +0200
In-Reply-To: <9611251620.AA25455@unimeca.univ-mrs.fr> from "Alain Berthon" at
Nov 25, 96 05:20:30 pm

> Hi everybody !
>
> The true quesôn is does vocalizaôn/gestual absolutely necessary
> to the compleôn of a spell ? The answer could be yes and no.

> hands/body gestual. Without these the spell will be ineec^ve and heka
> would be unleashed without control. I leave you to make the consequence of
> this wild heka, but I will consider something like Heka-burn, or soul/mind
> damage. And if it was possible to use cas^ngs without hands/body gestual,
> could you give me some reason why all Heka schools haven't yet developped a
> full non-gestual magic ?

The non-gestural magic would be _very_ unstable and dangerous,
thus no scholls has yet been able to make those spells reliable and safe
enough. Of course there is Specic Cas^ngs which won't need hands. (I'd
allow Specic Cas^ngs, as modicaôns of known cas^ngs to all
heka-users, not just Full Prac^ôners. If Parâl Prac^ôner wants to
invent new spell, it will take a likle more ^me than Full Pracîoner.
IMHO limi^ng Specic Cas^ngs for Full Prac^ôners only is
ridiculous).

> As you can guess, I'm rather on the yes side. However, you can
> always allow it, but in my own I would apply a 2 DR harder rather than one
> and an heka penality, something like doubling the cost. Furthermore, I will
> also give dire consequences to the fail, conver^ng the heka cost of the
> spell in M and S damage. This will make think the caster twice before trying
> something... The use of joss could certainly help in these, so you can
> always try an escape with a spell while your prefered heka user is fully bound.

This sounds fair. I'd suggest similar addiôns for modifying
and combining eects of exis^ng cas^ngs, with varying DR-modier.
Consequences of fail might be same.

> And how can you make the dierence between the remembering of a
> cas^ng, and actual cas^ng ? You argue with it's another state of mind, but
> I think you need a great deal of concentraôn while memorising your spells.
> Heka is very powerful in Mythus, so why give it more advantages ?

I think recallable cas^ngs as cas^ngs whose basic principles you

remember, but you must concentrate for while to remember more specic
principles and excepôns, while you remember everything needed for
cas^ng known cas^ngs. For example, I won't remeber some specic
mul^plicaôn, for exapmle 7*8, unless I think it for a while. (Six years
ago, when I learned it in scholl, I was able to say it immendiately).

Kautsu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 07:38:15 +0000
Subject: Wound Level, Eect Level, and Cri^cal Level

Here's an alterna^ve to the Wound Level, Eect Level, and Cri^cal
level that we've used some^mes to give our game something of an
edge.

The following system is recommended ONLY for low or some medium
fantasy styles of play. It goes contrary to everything that High
fantasy is about. So only consider it if you want to add a griky
sense of realism to your games, with lots of grunts, groans, and
anguished mumblings...

Introducôn:
The last karate tournament I was in I won with a sprained wrist,
a broken nger, and more bruises than I can remember. I also had
been kicked in the throat, and landed the nal sequence while I was
s^ll unable to breathe...
I've also won fencing tournaments on a broken toe, played in
basketball and volleyball tournaments while spor^ng sprained ankles
and wrenched knees, and wriken some of my best exams while
physically blinded by migraine headaches.

What's my point?

Some^mes life hurts. A lot. And your performance suers. A lot.
Some^mes you get lucky. Some^mes you don't. More oven than not
even a minor injury terrically changes your performance level.
Thus, we some^mes include a slight alterna^ve to the standard wound
level/cri^cal level system.

Part One:
It is a fairly ridiculous assumpôn that ghters will perform with
perfect eciency up un^l a certain level of damage is akained,
but it is a necessary one for maintaining game playability. If you
are willing to undergo a likle more numbers crunching for the sake
of a slightly more realis^c damage system, you might consider the
following.

In this system, there are actually four levels to consider.
Amount of Damage Title
25% Grazed
50% Dazed
75% Wounded
90% Cri^cal

In this system, a persona's abiliês start to slide the second they
take more than 25% damage, and con^nue to worsen the more damage
that they take. The eects are as follows.

Grazed Level
All K/S rolls, most especially combat, are done at 75% of normal
STEEP level. Thus, a person who has 3/4 of their life-force lev
only performs about 3/4 as well as they would normally. An
iniâ^ve penalty of -2 is added to the persona's iniâ^ve rolls
to represent their distracôn and lack of reexes.

Dazed Level
STEEP level. Thus, a person who has about 1/2 of their life-force
lev only performs about 1/2 as well as they would normally. An

Wounded Level
STEEP level. Thus, a person who has about 1/4 of their life-force
lev only performs about 1/4 as well as they would normally. An

Cri^cal Level
Persona falls unconscious upon akaining this level.

Part Two:
Movement
HP's have their movement rate reduced in direct proporôn to the
amount of damage that they have taken. Thus, players who have
reached Grazed level only move at 75% of their normal movement rate.
Players who have reached Wounded level only move at 25% of their
normal movement rate.

What does this do?
Well, taken together, the two changes result in a real team-play
system. You can't aord to take much more damage than a minor
scratch without it really hampering your abiliês. Thus, the team
now has to work together to protect weaker members, and also has to
seriously work at 'making pickup' on any wounded team members.

Of course, if a comrade is slowing you down, you can always either
leave him behind, administer the coup-de-grace', or pick him up and
add him to your own encumbrance, which hopefully doesn't slow you
down so much that you are caught as well.

As well, it adds a certain ZING! to the games when everybody's preky
beat up, and you s^ll manage to achieve your mission objec^ves and
make it out intact.

Joss is spent a likle more frequently, of course, as some people are
all too unwilling to "take the hit". However, eventually players
sekle down and gure out how to work together, and how to use every
clever trick in the book, to avoid damage and/or assist those who
have been wounded.

As well, it makes it interes^ng, as it means that there is a higher
incen^ve to stand in the way and protect a vital (yet weak) member
of the team who is necessary for a later objec^ve in the mission.
Thus, a street samurai will take on more than her fair share of the
combat simply in order to assure that the Decker will be in his right
mind when it comes ^me to deck. Or, a mercenary will gladly take
the arrow for his buddy, knowing that his role is limited, while the
other has skills that might be important later.

It makes for a very group-minded campaign, with lots of
self-sacrice, extreme cauôn, well-planned acôns, and
role-playing cues.

Oh... did I forget to menôn that in our campaign, nobody and I mean
NOBODY has the ability to heal others? Whatever damage you take
you're stuck with un^l you can make it out of the "hot zone".
We run a ^ght, nasty, rough-and-tumble ship... if you can't think your
way through, you don't belong in our crew. VERY RARELY do HP's
actually DIE, but they sure get wounded, scarred, shocked (as in lots
of rolls on the shock table), etc.

Makes for some great character-development. To misquote Nietsche,
"That which does not kill me makes me stronger" (he's oven
misquoted).

It's not for everybody. But we sure like it beker this way!
Characters don't FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT, become useless, and
die... instead they FIGHT, FIGHt, FIGht, FIght, Fight, ght, then
call for help....hopefully not too late...

Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 07:38:26 +0000
Subject: OH MY GOD!!!

Well, no wonder some of us don't see "eye to eye" on certain issues
concerning magick, combat, etc.

I was reading these posts with one of my players, and we ran across a
descripôn in which somebody (forgive me for not remembering who...)
described their campaign as a MEDIUM-FANTASY campaign, but they had
STEEP levels, get this, over three k/s areas... an average of 81!

We've never, ever, ever allowed our characters to get above 71... and
that has only been about 5 people's characters since the rst week
the game came out!

WOW!

.. again... WOW!

Talk about a dierence in perspec^ves. We'd think a character with
three k/s average of 81 would be a DEMI-GOD, and these guys think its
a medium-fantasy level game...

I would love to see a game like this in acôn. While its obvious
that it's not my cup of tea, I would happily sit and listen to the
sorts of stories that a game like that generates! What is it like?
Who do you ght? What do you do?

Really cool bit of insight...I think I'll have to qualify all of my
quesôns/comments/concerns from now on with this likle piece of
info...I can't imagine much of what my group has posted in the last
few weeks would be par^cularly useful/interes^ng/sensible for
people in high-fantasy stu like that!!!

Here I am saying that there are troubles with the Magick system
because they might allow too much power, and I'm wri^ng from the
perspec^ve or a dedicated Mage with a 41 or 51 STEEP. Or wri^ng
about the problems with a ghter who gets too many akacks and has
an unrealis^cally low chance of being hurt when he gets a 46 STEEP.

BUT ANYBODY UP THERE IN THE 80's MUST REALLY BE SOMETHING TO
SEE!!!!!

THANK YOU for the informaôn... it helped to bring a much-needed
change of perspec^ve. Have fun with your game.
Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 12:31:29 -0800

Randy Sivigny wrote:
>
> Could someone give me a good lean on weather exposure. Both cold and
> heat. My party is xing to come upon -100 degrees cold and
> windchill. What damage and what protecôns would you reccommend? I
> was thinking endurance or what else? Someone please give some ideas
> about damage and such. Thanks

Yeah There's all kinds of it in the reference book that came with the mythus GM screen (As well as
updates and xes on the weapon/armor
tables). If you don't have it, the weather related tables are below

Cold/Exposure:

state Ideal Tolerable

naked/wet 70-95 50-130
naked/Immeresd in water 85-95 60-120
clothed/dry 60-85 30-120
clothed/wet 70-90 40-120
Clothed/immersed 70-90 50-110
bundled/dry 0-30 -30-60
bundled/wet 65-85 30-100
bunlded/immersed 65-85 40-95

Notne of these are in your -100 range (but appear realis^c without high-tech stu), so I guess only being
an eskimo used to this horid cold,
have a foot of clothing on, or get some magic.

I could get some damages from my GURPS basic book and es^mate them over, but my friend has my
book right now and I can't get it '^ll Monday.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:59:52 -0600

Subject: Re: Wound Level, Eect Level, and Cri^cal Level
In-Reply-To: <199611271438.HAA55380@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca> from "Robert
Wol" at Nov 27, 96 07:38:15 am

>
> Here's an alterna^ve to the Wound Level, Eect Level, and Cri^cal
> level that we've used some^mes to give our game something of an
> edge.
>
We, too, have thought up an alterna^ve to the WL, EL, and CL as
currently stated. It certainly makes life more interes^ng. It is
fairly similar to what you have outlined as far as overall eects go, but
the actual implementaôn of those eects is somewhat dierent.

Here is how it works:

Each HP has a WL, RL, and CL in EACH Trait, not just Physical. WL is
dened as 75% of the TRAIT, RL is 15%, and CL is 90%. When an HP is
struck in combat, he records the damage as usual. If the damage
inicted by one blow is over the RL, then he is aected as follows:

-All STEEP suers a 10% reducôn in eec^veness
-All acôns acquire a +1 Speed Factor Penalty
-All movement is reduced by 10%

This occurs for each blow that overcomes the HP RL. When the player
reaches the WL, then the standard rules for Wounding are followed. At
Cri^cal, the HP falls unconscious and is treated as per the usual Mythus
guidelines. If the damage from each blow is not sucient to cause a
"wound", then the damage accumulates un^l the WL is reached at which
point it is assumed that the HP is "nickeled and dimed" into a Dazed
state, though there were no eects up to that point. I suppose an
example is necessary to clarify. Let's use my beloved Cavalier Joren as
an example:

Joren enters into combat against a evil mercenary. Both are wielding
longswords and each is wearing a bit of armor for insurance (let's say 20
and 15 respec^vely). Joren's PTRAIT is 120 and the mercenary is fairly
strong, so his is 90.

Joren Mercenary
Ptrait 120 90
RL 18 13
WL 90 67
CL 108 81
STEEP 80 60 one-handed swords only

Combat is iniâted and Joren's phenomenal speed allows him to go rst.
His rst hit is successful, the Merc declines to parry and the blow lands
on a non-vital locaôn. The resul^ng damage is 30 points of damage,
only 15 of which penetrates the armor. The total damage is 15 points,
which is more than the Merc's RL. His rst swing will be penalized by
10% of his combat, hand weapons STEEP, leaving it at 54 for now. His
speed factor to all acôns is also increased by one. However, he will
s^ll be able to swing his sword before Joren gets another chance. His
blow is also lucky as he gets a hit! However, it is only
non-vital so the total damage is 25. The net damage, subtrac^ng Joren's
armor, is 5. Joren takes 5 points of damage, but it is not enough to
aect his skill. If either persona had been hit by anything other than
a non-vital, the results would have been much more pronounced.

For a real life example, Joren was once akacked by several assassins.
He managed to kill all of them, but one almost got away because he was
less wounded than Joren and hence just a likle bit faster. It took Joss
to catch him. I think the system we have developed works fairly well,
though some^mes the recalculaôn of combat sta^s^cs can be hairy when
guring out specializaôn, combat modiers, etc...

Your idea is much simpler and probably works just as well.
>

The net result of this combat system for us is to be far more aware of
the aects of accep^ng a hit (especially from an ogre. I won't be
doing THAT again any ^me soon!). Joss is used extensively in order to
prevent blows and even armor is not necessarily good insurance. It is
much more dicult to shrug o a blow that does 50 points of damage, as
most of it is probably going to get through the armor and s^ll hurt you.

Just a few thoughts on the subject.

Malcolm Hays
mhays@umr.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:05:52 -0800
From: James Edwards <jamese@IDACOM.HP.COM>
Organizaôn: Hewlek Packard

Hi Rob :

Thanks for making me subscribe to this list. I'd also like to say Hi
to all our new Mythis friends.....WOW, WE ARE NOT ALONE.

It's cool to see our stu on the net like this.

Just one point you overlooked. The accumula^ve damage forces us to

decide to RUN AWAY / break o when things are going bad.
^^^^^^^^

Robert Wol wrote:
>
> edge.
>
> The following system is recommended ONLY for low or some medium
> fantasy styles of play. It goes contrary to everything that High
> fantasy is about. So only consider it if you want to add a griky
> sense of realism to your games, with lots of grunts, groans, and
> anguished mumblings...

<<<snip>>>

> Sincerely,
>
> Bodhi / Rob Wol
>

-James Edwards __
/ /\ Opinions expressed
Test Technician / / \ are my own, not my
IDACOM Telecom Operaôn __ /_/ /\ \ service providers.
Hewlek-Packard (Canada) Ltd. /_/\ __\ \ \_\ \
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Email jamese@idacom.hp.com \_\/
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 20:17:40 +0100

Hi !

> The non-gestural magic would be _very_ unstable and dangerous,
>thus no scholls has yet been able to make those spells reliable and safe
>enough.
There is one notable excepôn : witchcraever's cas^ngs. They
include a lot of eyebite cas^ngs (I think all eyebites cas^ngs of the
rules). But what is the price paid for such prac^ce ? Dark pacts, lost soul
? This magic is quite dierent, so there is surely some drawback. Anybody
have an idea on this topic ?

>This sounds fair. I'd suggest similar addiôns for modifying
>and combining eects of exis^ng cas^ngs, with varying DR-modier.
>Consequences of fail might be same.
Sure ! p26 of MMagic gives opônnal rule for cas^ng environment.

>I think recallable cas^ngs as cas^ngs whose basic principles you
>remember, but you must concentrate for while to remember more specic
>principles and excepôns, while you remember everything needed for
>cas^ng known cas^ngs. For example, I won't remeber some specic
>mul^plicaôn, for exapmle 7*8, unless I think it for a while. (Six years
>ago, when I learned it in scholl, I was able to say it immendiately).
Yes, but I'll develop it further. One more ^me the technology/magic
similarity can help. During years of studies at university, I learnt
thousands of mathema^cal formulas. Some of them, I remember instantly, of
with likle memory eort. Other ones, I build them again with more or less
(hard) thinking. Last, there are those I can neither remember nor build
again : I need to review my notes/books, and then they come in again. This
is exactly the same thing with spells.
There is more : Mathema^cal formulas aren't memorized in a whole.
For example, let's say I want to solve a 2nd level polynomial equaôn.
There is not an instant answer, I need to calculate a few (simple) formulas
to get the result(s). In applying this model to spell cas^ng, it shows to
us that the personna uses basic heka-formulas to build heka-soluôn that
is nothing else that the spell. Actually, you oven need a pen and a sheet
(or more) of paper to solve equaôns. These are the representaôns of the
materials, gestuals and words spoken while cas^ng a spell. To cast a spell
without these, is like solving equaôns without wri^ng. You can do it for
simple ones. But what about very dicult equaôns, or big equaôn
systems with many unknowns ? You can s^ll do it with some outside help,
like a computer with the right program. In this last case the computer is a
preternatural being/force which help the caster, allowing him to use heka
with more freedom like an eyebite for a witch/warlock.
Yes, it seems a s^ and hard, but the principles of magic are
stricts and well dened by the seven laws. So magic is something like a
science in most cases.

Bye
Alain
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:13:11 -0800


Alain Berthon wrote:
>
> Hello to everyone !
> Jesse Roberge wrote :
> >I agree also. I beleive that mages and ghters should be realatvity equal
> in overall power.
> I don't think so. Gygax himself said it for AD&D and it seems this
> is roughly the same game balance. Mages are the most powerful characters,
> specially at high STEEP levels with numerous cas^ngs. On this par^cular
> topic, the balance lies upon spells and material availability. Make them
> easy to nd and it's like you make +30 armors/weapons as common as normal ones.
>
> >Although mages can pack a bigger punch, they
> >have a limited reserve of power that must be recharged with at least a
> night's rest (A ghter's power is con^nous, with only physical factors
> >being the limit). Mythus mages puches are too powerful and the reserves
> are too large, and it's too easy to recharge the 'Heka bakeries'.
> Remember, the more heka you have, themore ^me you'll need to
> recharge your pool. Clever heka-users will also make sure to save some heka,
> 'just in case'. If they do not, teach them the lesson by ambushing them with
> tough bandits or mercenaries and later akack with the evil spell user which
> paid for the ambush. The heka-using HP will certainly curse themselves to
> have wasted so much heka on the rst opponents.
>
> >But Aerth was designed to be a very magical world, and it is not common at
> >all to get a HP that can't cast spells at all.
> Yes, but I remember you that HP are 'above the norm' and, as such,
> have excepônnal abiliês. This does not imply that all other individuals
> of Aerth also have these powers (see above).
>

> I agree with you for the rst two, but not for the last. Magic is
> more powerful in RM than in Mythus, and its abuse more devasta^ng at high
> level.

Your're right. I was assuming playing a mage without loads of PP adders/mul^pliers. The spells are quite
devasta^ng at high levels. I also
never acutally played the game, since it runs much too slow, so I don't know how fast people gain levels.

> >Although this balance is shaky due to all of the bugs in the
> >rules (It should have been playtested much more), it is mostly just the higher
> >requirments of crea^vity on the GM (Some of it could be ofseked by the
> >proprietary campaign seing, Aearth?) and a maker of geing used to the
> higher balance of power.

> I think we will need more GM-tes^ng before involving players in a
> campaign ! Either my english was badly poor or you have not read the same
> Aerth tome as me, but what make you think that Aerth is guilty for heka abuse ?

I wasn't accusing the campaign seing at all, just the game system itself, and the potenâl for GMs to let
players abuse Heka.

> Not at all. Some states of Aerth are ruled by heka-tyrans, but not
> all of them. The magic/technology image is very good. Our modern world is
> ruled by technology. Do you imagine a world without cars, plane, tv, phone
> or computers? A world without electricity ! I think humanity would be
> greatly wounded and helpless without technology. Sciences and technics, are
> ever present in our everyday life. Does this make scien^sts dictators ?
> Indeed, we are the slaves of the technology, but we do not ght against
> technologists.
> The same is true for Aerth and Heka. People need (minor) heka in their
> everyday life, to predict weather, to heal wounds, diseases or poisoning, to
> help repairs, construcôn, communicaôn... Most heka-user have a role to
> play in this society, but they are not oven upon head of the state. Well,
> perhaps they are the power behind the throne, but that's also true on Earth !
> Any comments ?

Yeah, I could say so with technology and heka being treated as =. A nuclear weapon equivalant cas^ng
would cost thousands of heka points.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:20:51 -0800

Robert Wol wrote:
>
> edge.
>
> The following system is recommended ONLY for low or some medium
> fantasy styles of play. It goes contrary to everything that High
> fantasy is about. So only consider it if you want to add a griky
> sense of realism to your games, with lots of grunts, groans, and
> anguished mumblings...
>
> Introducôn:
> The last karate tournament I was in I won with a sprained wrist,
> a broken nger, and more bruises than I can remember. I also had
> been kicked in the throat, and landed the nal sequence while I was
> s^ll unable to breathe...
> I've also won fencing tournaments on a broken toe, played in
> basketball and volleyball tournaments while spor^ng sprained ankles
> and wrenched knees, and wriken some of my best exams while
> physically blinded by migraine headaches.

If I wanted maximum realism, I would play a fantasy campaign in GURPS. I think that GURPS and WFRP
support low fantasy campaings the best.
AD&D is good for medium and high fantasy. I don't know about rolemaster, since there are so many
rules alterna^ves. I assume that it is
weighted for high-fantasy.

But why would a GM give body part injuries in the rst place when there are likle or no Game-or-GM
originated ways to deal with them.
Your new system looks like a in-betweener. I think GURPS has the best ways of dealing with bodiliy
injuries.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:54:13 -0800
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Mythus Database]

FCC: c:\MAIL\Sent
Message-ID: <328E278D.2A6C@mhv.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 12:43:57 -0800
From: Jesse Roberge <nebraska@mhv.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: MYTHUS-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU, Taylor Walston <viper@dfwmm.net>
References: <328A983B.1932@mhv.net> <329A2F42.66E1@dfwmm.net>
Content-Type: mul^part/mixed; boundary="------------6FBB4290203A"
X-Mozilla-Status: 0811


--------------6FBB4290203A

Taylor Walston wrote:
>
> Jesse Roberge wrote:
> >
> > > Actually I am working on a similar project. I would love to see what
> > > you have and see what mine is missing. (Also might want to pirate
> > > whatever spells you have entered (:
> >
> > You can take whatever you want. I think you'll get more ideas o of
> > the design however, since that is what i'm concentra^ng on. Hopefully
> > I'll be able to improt data from other peoples stu to save me
> > copy-from-the-book data entry.
> >
> > I tried to make a 4NF database, but that would require 9-10 tables per
> > spellcas^ng K/S area and 12 tables for the skills and
> > sub-areas--(2xcharacter lis^ng+2x data lis^ng)*3 traits, and 2 tables
> > each (1 for character lis^ng, 1 for data) for weapons, missile
> > weapons, armor, equpment, quirks, and special equipment+2 more for the
> > character data and the extended character data.
> Where can I nd it or can you send it to me?

I'll send you a copy. However it's nowhere near nished, and you cannot enter data through the
unnished character sheet because the table's
data validaôn won't let you store the record. Also for the spells and the sub-area data entry, I'm not
sure whether you can enter data in
the K/A area eld in the spells and sub-area forms (Built on querys that join the list tables and the K/S list
table to get the name
instead of the counter #) without courrp^ng the K?S area list table.

I would like a copy of your database, especially if you've already put data in it.

Actually, I'll send the database to the whole list since I don't think they can claim it as their own due to
the complexity and possible
errors.

--------------6FBB4290203A
Content-Type: applicaôn/octet-stream
Content-Disposiôn: akachment; lename="MYTHCHAR.MDB"

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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:01:44 -0800
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Mythus Database]
X-To: nebraska@MHV.NET

At 02:54 PM 11/16/96 -0800, Jesse Roberge wrote:
[SNIP]
>Actually, I'll send the database to the whole list since I don't think
they can claim it as their own due to the complexity and possible
>errors.
>
>Akachment Converted: "C:\EUDORA\INCOMING\MYTHCHAR.MDB"

What format? Access doesn't recognize this le's format.

Todd South

=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:42:59 -0500

>> It is my hope that there are other people out there with mul^-genre
>> aspiraôns, and maybe I can get some cool new ideas for the upcoming
>> campaigns I've been asked to run.
>
>Yeah! :-) I had a game plan, once, which would have meshed the
>Changeling Weird Science-Fantasy with Ravenlov, AErth, and Mystara, with
>a dash of Unhallowed for fun..... Unfortunately, the game sort of
>petered out.

For an idea of how mul^-genre campaigns would aect things, you might
want to check out the recently released "Pawns of Chaos" book from White
Wolf. Gary Gygax wrote a Gord story in it. There's some hints on how to
handle a mutli-milieux campaign seing. Gord's aware of his status as
"Eternal Champion", has been kicked out of his Hy Brazeal Yarth due to a
coup, and ended up gh^ng devils (Law) on what appears to be modern-day
Earth. Kinda gives you a few ideas of how to handle such an event.

Wonder if he ever travelled the D-train.
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 17:13:18 -0800
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Mythus Database]

Todd South wrote:
>
> At 02:54 PM 11/16/96 -0800, Jesse Roberge wrote:
> [SNIP]
> >Actually, I'll send the database to the whole list since I don't think
> they can claim it as their own due to the complexity and possible
> >errors.
> >
> >Akachment Converted: "C:\EUDORA\INCOMING\MYTHCHAR.MDB"
>
> What format? Access doesn't recognize this le's format.

Did you get the .LDB le. .MDBs won't work without it. Here's another copy of both les if it didn't
work.

Also I'm using a Win 3.x format (v2.0)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 23:31:42 -0500
Subject: Exposure Damage

>
> Could someone give me a good lean on weather exposure. Both cold and
> heat. My party is xing to come upon -100 degrees cold and
> windchill. What damage and what protecôns would you reccommend? I
> was thinking endurance or what else? Someone please give some ideas
> about damage and such. Thanks

OK, I looked it up and here's the deal (from page 259). There are ideal and
tolerable temperature ranges for an HP based on their level of clothing and
their condiôn (wet,dry, or immersed). Once outside the ideal range, the
HPs have to make a "Moderate" PM roll or be Dazed. Once outside the
tolerable range, it changes to a "Hard" roll (and remember that if they were
dry but become wet that alters the tolerable range) and they take 1 point of
damage per 10 degrees Fahrenheit (or fracôn thereof) the temperature is
beyond that tolerable point. There seems to be no menôn of how oven one
must make the PM roll, but I think once per AT is too hard. Maybe once per
hour? Things like Endurance would modify that, of course, as would the
various protec^ve Cas^ngs available to many prac^ôners.

In any event, let's suppose you have a normally clothed, dry HP in -100
degree weather. (As far as wind chill goes, I assume the temperatures on the
table in the book represent the eec^ve temperature, so just gure out
air+windchill yourself [or declare it by JM at] and look up that value on
the table.) Since the tolerable range for such an HP is 30-120, such an HP
will take 13 points of damage every AT of exposure (plus possibly be Dazed if
they fail a "Hard" PM roll). Ouch!

My guess is that Endurance extends the ^me of exposure before a roll is
required (to the tune of 1% per point of STEEP) and/or makes the DR roll
easier, so a 50 STEEP means the HP only takes damage every 1.5 ATs.

Two nal notes: these gures apply to both heat and cold, and when immersed
or wet while cold there is a +2 DR penalty to checking for disease infecôn.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:13:10 +0000


Hey Malcolm...

Super-Cool ideas, tovarisch!! I think I'm going to steal part of
your system, and add it to my own. I'll see if anybody in my group
will vote for that likle addiôn in our next game!

Great Stu!

And I don't think my system is simpler... yours is very elegant, and
fairly simple. I like it a lot!

Thanks. Your construc^ve post is much appreciated, and much needed.
It does my heart good to hear that others are willing to post
"Here's how WE do it" ar^cles, rather than just "I dislike how YOU
do it" ar^cles. Hopefully, these lead to "Here's how to combine the
best of all suggesôns" ar^cles.

(and NO... the above editorial comment is not intended as a direct
SLAM against anybody... just a cauônary comment on the way some
threads can degrade... and a suppor^ve THANK YOU for somebody who
took the ^me to help guide My system with a likle help from HIS
system.)

Again, thanks a lot, Malcolm.

Forgive me for waxing philosophic (an occupaônal hazard, with
me...) but do you ever no^ce that, if we DISAGREE with
somebody, we're the rst to say something... but if we AGREE with somebody,
we just silently le it away for future use without comment.
What strange and wonderful creatures we are, that we forget to say "You're Right",
but always remember to say "You're Wrong!".

That's why I thought I'd beker make sure to tell you that I think
your system is good.

" More than good.... it's greeeeAAAT!. "

Sincerely,

Bodhi / Rob Wol

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 04:51:18 +0000

I denatley would like some damages if it wouldn't be to much
trouble. That's what makes this list excellent. My players
denatley shake there head when they see how informed I am.

Thanks to all
Randy
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 18:46:45 +0200
In-Reply-To: <199611271438.HAA55380@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca> from "Robert
Wol" at Nov 27, 96 07:38:15 am

Here is my suggesôns for hign-fantasy modiers duen
Wound-levels Rob Wol suggested.

> In this system, there are actually four levels to consider.
> Amount of Damage Title
> 25% Grazed
> 50% Dazed
> 75% Wounded
> 90% Cri^cal
>
> In this system, a persona's abiliês start to slide the second they
> take more than 25% damage, and con^nue to worsen the more damage
> that they take. The eects are as follows.

For each damage of 1/4th of targets Ptrait single wound causes, all DRs
are increased by 1.

>
> Grazed Level

Sounds good, but maybe grazed level penalty shouldn't be so high,
10 to 15% would suit beker, it s^ll is just a grace. -1 penalty to
in^âl^ve. If 25% of your P-trait is exceeded with _signgle blow_,
penalty lasts un^l Recovery level reached, otherwise penalty lasts un^l
character makes Moderate SPPow roll has made (IIRC, Psychic was willpower,
so it suites best this situaôn), replaced with Endurance or Yoga, if
posessed. (All blows cause Graze-level penalty, but are relieved with Easy
roll, unless damage-level sais otherwise). SPPow is _not_ penalized, but
skills replacing it are... Of course relief-rolls can be tried once per
SPSpd in CTs.

> Dazed Level
As above, penalty is 15 to 3+% to all skills, -3 penalty to speed.
Penalty lasts un^l character Hard SPPow roll has made, thus changing
wound-level to Graze. Roll can be tried once SPSpd in BTs.

> Wounded Level
As above, penalty is 30 to 50% to all skills, -5 penalty to speed.
Penalty lasts un^l Dicult SPPow roll passes, changing wound-level to
Dazed. Roll can be tried once per SPSpd in ATs. Also Hard SPPow roll is
made or character falls unconcious. This task is tried once SPSpd CTs.

>
> Cri^cal Level
> Persona falls unconscious upon akaining this level,
unless he passes Dicult SPPow task. If he stays concious, he is
penal^zed by 50 to 75% to all skills and -10 penalty to speed.

> Part Two:
> Movement
> HP's have their movement rate reduced in direct proporôn to the
> amount of damage that they have taken. Thus, players who have
> reached Grazed level only move at 75% of their normal movement rate.
> Players who have reached Wounded level only move at 25% of their
> normal movement rate.

This is good, I think. But if someone don't want as steep as above
reducôn of movement, you may use same percentages I suggested above.

> What does this do?
>

My suggesôns haven't yet been playtested, so you may try them.
(I don't know when I am able to try these myself, as my players have been
scakered all around Finland...)

Kautsu

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ani Kauâinen Student of computer science at University of Turku

Pyydysmaenê 19
20660 LITTOINEN
FINLAND
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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=jctz
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 19:24:03 +0200
Subject: Regaining Heka

I think Akribute, Category and Trait heka are regained only via
sleep or meditaôn. Do you think Akribute, Category or Trait addiôn to
STEEP are ACT-heka. I think they should be, limi^ng Heka of all those
nasty Full Prac^ôners who cant sleep well enough :>

What do you think about my newest idea: Fa^gue. All characters
has Fa^gue equal to averages of Physical Powers, which is regained only
via sleep. I haven't considered fa^gue-costs of ac^viês, but IMHO they
might be same to Endurance heka, you spent 1 point for each mul^plicaôn
of ^me you normally are able to do task. The costs should be generated,
but I have no idea for it, so I ask you, fellow listmembers, for
suggesôns. If you exceed your Fa^gue-maximum, you start gaining
Physical Damage, 1 PD : 1 Heka used.

Another idea would be reducôn of Heka produced by Trait,
Category or Akribute by damage to that Trait or fracôn of it. (Ie
Category is reduced by 50% of damage, round down and Akribute by 1/6th of
damage). If Trait, Category or Akribute is mul^plied for Heka, reducôn
is also mul^plied.

Kautsu

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------Ani Kauâinen Student of computer science at University of Turku
Pyydysmaenê 19
20660 LITTOINEN
FINLAND
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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=DbKg
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 19:37:36 +0200
Nov 27, 96 08:17:40 pm

> Hi !
>
> There is one notable excepôn : witchcraever's cas^ngs. They
> include a lot of eyebite cas^ngs (I think all eyebites cas^ngs of the
> rules). But what is the price paid for such prac^ce ? Dark pacts, lost soul
> ? This magic is quite dierent, so there is surely some drawback. Anybody
> have an idea on this topic ?

Witchcraevers has 1 BIG drawback: They will _always_ die when
their pact expires, thus they will soon die anyway. (Esspecially, if
creature they are dealing with, is trying by all means to force him break
his pact). Condemned ones don't even care if they die sooner or later, so
they are willing to risk everything...

> Yes, but I'll develop it further. One more ^me the technology/magic
> similarity can help. During years of studies at university, I learnt
> thousands of mathema^cal formulas. Some of them, I remember instantly, of
> with likle memory eort. Other ones, I build them again with more or less
> (hard) thinking. Last, there are those I can neither remember nor build
> again : I need to review my notes/books, and then they come in again. This
> is exactly the same thing with spells.

> There is more : Mathema^cal formulas aren't memorized in a whole.
> For example, let's say I want to solve a 2nd level polynomial equaôn.
> There is not an instant answer, I need to calculate a few (simple) formulas
> to get the result(s). In applying this model to spell cas^ng, it shows to
> us that the personna uses basic heka-formulas to build heka-soluôn that
> is nothing else that the spell. Actually, you oven need a pen and a sheet
> (or more) of paper to solve equaôns. These are the representaôns of the
> materials, gestuals and words spoken while cas^ng a spell. To cast a spell
> without these, is like solving equaôns without wri^ng. You can do it for
> simple ones. But what about very dicult equaôns, or big equaôn
> systems with many unknowns ? You can s^ll do it with some outside help,
> like a computer with the right program. In this last case the computer is a
> preternatural being/force which help the caster, allowing him to use heka
> with more freedom like an eyebite for a witch/warlock.

Thanks. I thought same thing, but my mind was quite blurred (I
replied aver examinaôn...). The math is very good example: You have a
lot of things to remember, with equal complexity to cas^ngs, I think. (At
least all those icky formulas of University-level math...)

> Yes, it seems a s^ and hard, but the principles of magic are
> stricts and well dened by the seven laws. So magic is something like a
> science in most cases.
>
> Bye
> Alain

Kautsu

PS: I'm studying utu for second year and Computer Science (I don't know if
this is best translaôn...) has some Math (but not much, thank of god...)

Pyydysmaenê 19
20660 LITTOINEN
FINLAND
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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=02JP
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 20:19:36 -0500

Subject: Mythus Magick Correcôns, Pt. 2 (LONG)

Here is more of my project. As before, some of this is "ocial" but most
of the notes are typo correcôns or notes on claricaôns which are needed
on certain issues. I welcome any comments on this round and hope it is
useful to one and all.

I have even included correcôns which I feel make the published material
more self-consistent, though not strictly necessary, e.g. since most Cas^ngs
list a Distance component using the text string similar to "1 rod/10 STEEP,"
I have noted the instances where a dierent but equal text string is used,
e.g. "1 rod per 10 STEEP." These may be ignored for game informaôn
purposes but I feel are important for anyone wishing to re-edit Mythus Magick
someday. I've prefaced these with the [EDIT] designaôn so those who aren't
interested in such nieceês may skip them.

pg. 34, "Armor, Physical Cantrip": [EDIT] to be consistent with other
Cas^ngs, this Cas^ng should have its Time componenet listed as "10 ATs or
special", not "10 ATs or un^l destroyed".

pg. 34, "Avoid Deadly Akack Formula": [EDIT] to be consistent with other
Cas^ngs, this Cas^ng should have its Time componenet listed as "1
BT/STEEP", not "1 BT/1 STEEP".

pg. 34, "Bounce Charm": [EDIT] to be consistent with other Cas^ngs, this
Cas^ng should have its Distance componenet listed as "1 rod/10 STEEP", not
"1 rod per10 STEEP".
[CLARIFICATION] The Cas^ng Area is "1 creature or item". What is the limit
of Area if not a discrete item? The E/F/M notes that it can be applied to a
wall, but could it be applied to, say, an en^re Viking dragonship?

pg. 34, "Disjuncôn Charm": [TYPO?] The Cas^ng Distance is "1 rod/STEEP".
This seems to be an awfully huge distance. Might this be a typo for the more
common "1 rod/10 STEEP," par^cularly as it is a Grade I Cas^ng?
[CLARIFICATION] Since this is a Grade I Cas^ng, it seems to be very
powerful; in addiôn, certain higher-grade Cas^ngs such as "Disperse Heka
Flow" seem to be in some ways more limited. I think this might be restricted
to ac^ve Cas^ngs only, and to be further res^cted in working on Cas^ngs,
not Cas^ng eects, e.g. if you get nailed with a "Scorpionre" Cas^ng,
you could use "Disjuncôn" to cancel the area of ames, but it would not
put out any objects that ignited due to the Cas^ng, nore would it send away
those pesky likle crikers, as they are Eects of the Cas^ng, not the
Cas^ng itself. I realize this may be a controversial interpretaôn and I
welcome commentary.
[CORRECTION] The footnote to the DRs modifying the use of "Disjuncôn" is
incorrect; the correct DR for Magick Resistance versus Disjuncôn is
"Extreme", not "Dicult".

pg. 34, "Lock Charm": [CORRECTION] The Area of this Cas^ng is "1 lock,
bolt, etc." but the E/F/M says that the prac^ôner can manipulate "any
non-magickal lock(s) and/or door bolt(s) on, or axing, a single portal or
container..." If the E/F/M is correct, the Area should instead read "1
portal or container."
[EDIT/CORRECTION] Since another Cas^ng opens locks, it seems reasonable to
say that the sentence containing the phrase "the prac^ôner is able to
manipulate any non-magickal..." should have a few words inserted to to
clarify its use, thus: "the prac^ôner is able to manipulate so as to
close any non-magickal..."

pg. 35, "Lock-Open Charm": [CORRECTION] The Area of this Cas^ng is 1 lock,
bolt, etc." but the E/F/M says that the prac^ôner can "manipulate so as to
open (undo) any bolt(s) lock(s)..." If the E/F/M is correct, the Area should
instead read "1 portal or container."

pg. 35, "Quicken Cantrip": [EDIT] to be consistent with other Cas^ngs,
this Cas^ng should have its Distance componenet listed as "1 rod/10 STEEP",
not "1 rod per10 STEEP".

pg. 35, "Reecôns Ritual": [EDIT] this Cas^ng contains a phrase which
seems inaccurate: "xas the Caster has tens of STEEP in this Sub-Area."
Properly speaking, the General Dweomercraev Cas^ngs belong to the
Dweomercraev K/S Area, not one of the School Sub-Areas.
[CLARIFICATION] The rst sentence of the E/F/M is not clear, in that it
doesn't seem to dene the term 'degree': "The Reecôns Ritual requires
one Acôn Turn of cas^ng for each degree of dweomer it is to eect." Note
that the word "eect" instead of "aect" is used. The only informaôn
provided is that it takes 1 AT to use a pool of liquid but considerably
longer to make a Magick Mirror. My guess is that it takes longer to ac^vate
when using other objects like a brazier of ames, a crystal ball, and so
forth. Such data is not supplied.
[TYPO] The reference to the creaôn of a Magick Mirror refers to Chapter
18. The correct chapter number for Magickal Items is 12.
[ERROR] The E/F/M says that this Cas^ng can be used in conjuncôn with the
creaôn of a Magick Mirror, but in fact there is no text in the book which
describes the creaôn of such an item, either with or without this Cas^ng.
[TYPO] The second paragraph contains an incomplete sentence: "The subject
of the akempt being known to the prac^ôner either personally, by likeness
and repute, by name and locale, etc." Either add a phrase like "is required"
before the period, or turn this incomplete sentence into a clause by removing
the period of the previous sentence and replacing with a comma, xing the
capitalizaôn as well.

pg. 35, "Summon Mascot Ritual": [CLARIFICATION] Strictly speaking, the
mascot cannot be turned into a familiar, only into a fe^sh via subsequent
use of the "Ritual of the Heart" Cas^ng. A familiar is a evil spirit in
animal shape assis^ng a prac^ôner of witchcraev, not a real animal
magickally bound to the dweomercraever. See page 359 for details.

pg. 36, "Trigger Eect Formula": [CLARIFICATION] This is the Zapruder lm
of Cas^ngs. (My apologies for the non-Americans who may not understand that
reference, but it seems appropriate to me.) Much has already been wriken
about this Cas^ng on MYTHUS-L, and I am sure everyone has their own theory
about what was intended here. Even Dave Newton says he doesn't remember! If
only Gary were herex Anyway, here are the immediate problems:
1. The duraôn is listed as "Permanent or Instantaneous". I understand
that these refer respec^vely to use 1 and use 2 as laid out in the Cas^ng's
E/F/M, but is "Permanent" really "Permanent", and not "Permanent un^l
triggered," as is true for other Cas^ngs like "Heka Trap Spell"? I feel
sure that this cannot be as powerful as described, especially since it is
only a Grade I Cas^ng.
2. If this Cas^ng really allows one to set another Cas^ng to go o at a
triggering event, why bother having spells like the aforemenôned "Heka Trap
Spell", since even a moderate-level dweomercraever would have access to
higher-grade Cas^ngs like Heka Darts that do much more damage? Again, this
seems awfully powerful for Grade I.
3. As wriken, there is nothing that says you can't have three "Trigger
Eects" on yourself set to ac^vate three defensive Cas^ngs that all share
the same trigger. This seems to let a dweomercraever set up a super-defence
at one word, making them untouchable. (Imagine a single word ac^va^ng
"Reverse Akack", "Armor, Physical", and "Heka Shell"!) The only excepôn
is the Grade VII Cas^ng "Doublecast", which allows the conjoining of two
Cas^ngs at once. It seems logical that a low-grade Cas^ng should not be
more powerful than a high-grade Cas^ng.
4. If this Cas^ng can ac^vate other Cas^ngs, where does the Heka come
from, and how does it draw it forth? One of my players wanted to put
"Fireash" on pebbles and use "Trigger Eect" to have them go o on
impact, crea^ng what he referred to as "spell grenades." I don't think that
this Cas^ng stores Heka, so it could not draw the Heka out of an inert
pebble when there is none.
It is clear that there are a lot of unanswered quesôns here; I hope that
these points will help JMs place reasonable restricôns on the use of this
Cas^ng in their campaigns.

pg. 36, "Trudge Cantrip": [EDIT] to be consistent with other Cas^ngs, this
Cas^ng should have its Distance componenet listed as "1 rod/10 STEEP", not
"1 rod per10 STEEP".

pg. 36, "Understanding of Ur Spell": [EDIT] to be consistent with other
Cas^ngs, this Cas^ng should have its Other Heka componenet listed as "1 per
BT added ^me", not "1:1 BT added ^me".
[EDIT] the phrase "Foreign Languages" should not be capitalized.

pg. 36, "Wickaame Charm": [EDIT] to be consistent with other Cas^ngs,
this Cas^ng should have its Distance componenet listed as "1 rod/10 STEEP",
not "1 rod per10 STEEP".

pg. 36, "Armor, Mental Cantrip": [CORRECTION] the amount of Mental armor
provided by this Cas^ng to Parâl Prac^ôners should be equal to the
caster's MR CATEGORY, not MR CAPACITY.

pg. 36, "Bukress Charm": [CLARIFICATION] note that this can only be cast
on an exis^ng Cas^ng. Also note that this can make those pesky
"Disjuncôns" not as reliable. If I were a player, I'd never enter combat
without Bukressing my best defensive Cas^ng rst. I know the EHPs my
players encounter oven do just this (I won't say which ones since at least
one of my players is on this listx)

That will do it for now. Hopefully I can get part three out soon. Maybe by
the end of the year I will get this whole thing done aver all.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 15:27:19 +0100
Subject: Wounds and cri^cs...

Hi everybody !

I know that I already expressed lots of cri^cs (Hi Rob !), but I'll
go on ! That's not for the pleasure, but I'm highly cri^cal-minded. I only
hope it desserves the game and that I can, in my way, contribute to a beker
play.
So, Rob, your wound level system is not bad per-se but why don't you
push on the reasoning a likle more ? You can give a one on one malus to the
HP's K/S STEEP for each wound he suers. For individuals with high P trait
(i.e. more than 100), the lost in abiliês will begin only when he/she drop
below 100. So you have a con^nuous fading of the potenâl of this
individual, un^ll he nally reaches unconsciousness. For example, let's
say Sir Erwann is a cavalier-type EP with P 118. In combat, he takes 15, and
his P is now at 103. Since he is above 100, he suers no penaliês. He's
wounded again for 32 (ouch!) and now his P is 71, so all his acôns are
made at 71 % eciency (His riding horses steep drop from 82 to 82 x 0.71 =
58.22 rounded to 58).
The major drawback for this system (and all these abiliês
lowering/raising systems) is that the players/JM have to calculate their K/S
levels with each wound. How many players/JM can really do that smoothly
without slowing down the ow of the game ? Par^cularly if your players
need an adding machine to calculate 2+2, or need half an hour to nd the
result ! Yes I knew some people like this... :-(
So we must be sure to balance pros and cons, before actually choosing a
system. Each group is dierent and that is to be reckonned with. I think
that the playability is the nal factor, with the above-menônned
restricôns.
Discussion about the rules aren't my main interest. Rob, I greatly
liked your mul^-genre campaign posts, and I congratulate you again for this
piece of crea^ve work (You see, I do not always disagree ;-). Althrough the
list is made to help people in solving rules problems, I would like see more
background discussed, special characters, scenario. INMO, rules discussions
should be about interpretaôn of obscure points, lacking explanaôns and
not about a thousand-rules changes/adds. Oh, I never told the rules are
perfect, and EVERYONE IS FREE TO CHANGE THE RULES HE DISLIKES. But, I would
like that you think about all the members of the list. What will happen if
everybody proposes new/changed rules ?
Please, list-fellows, tell me your opinion in this maker.

Bye
Alain (ocial disagree-er ;-)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 16:20:10 +0100
Subject: Re: Wounds and cri^cs...

Hi Alain,

> So, Rob, your wound level system is not bad per-se but why don't you
>push on the reasoning a likle more ? You can give a one on one malus to the
>HP's K/S STEEP for each wound he suers. For individuals with high P trait
>(i.e. more than 100), the lost in abiliês will begin only when he/she drop
>below 100. So you have a con^nuous fading of the potenâl of this
>individual, un^ll he nally reaches unconsciousness. For example, let's
>say Sir Erwann is a cavalier-type EP with P 118. In combat, he takes 15, and
>his P is now at 103. Since he is above 100, he suers no penaliês. He's
>wounded again for 32 (ouch!) and now his P is 71, so all his acôns are
>made at 71 % eciency (His riding horses steep drop from 82 to 82 x 0.71 =
>58.22 rounded to 58).

Hmm, and my poor old priestcraever does perform at 70% STEEP even when in
full health, since he's not the physically strongest?
I don't like this (I don't really like Rob's idea as well, the op^mum has
to be somwhere in between).
And I think that house rules are very important. There's been some
suggesôns here which I swallowed and digested and I will be puing them
out to my co-players.
Of course I don't want to keep anyone from pos^ng crikers, spells or
campaigns :-)

Happy gaming,
Joerg
(leaving for a con in three hours)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 16:26:10 +0100
Subject: Re: Mythus Magick Correcôns, Pt. 2 (LONG)

>Here is more of my project. As before, some of this is "ocial" but most
>of the notes are typo correcôns or notes on claricaôns which are needed
>on certain issues. I welcome any comments on this round and hope it is
>useful to one and all.
(snip)
Great work Donald ! I'll read it at home with my rulebook at hand,
but it seems very good to me. I think it must have been long working hours
through the rules to nd out errors.
Bye
Alain
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 16:58:20 +0100
Subject: Re: Wounds and cri^cs...

Hi (spec. Joerg)

>Hmm, and my poor old priestcraever does perform at 70% STEEP even when in
>full health, since he's not the physically strongest?
Not at all ! Let's take another example. Brian Fenbarr is a P 70
pracônner. All his abiliês are at top level while he's at P 70. If he's
wounded for 10 pts his new P is 60 or about 86 % (exactly 60divided by 70)
so his dweomercraev steep of 65 become 65 x 0.86 = 55.9 rounded at 56.
The 'above 100' excepôn is made to show superior physical
prowesses These P 100+ HP/OP are allowed to ignore these (lesser) wounds. In
all other cases (ie P lower than 100) you take the raô between actual P
and full P.

>I don't like this (I don't really like Rob's idea as well, the op^mum has
>to be somwhere in between).
My feeling is the same...
>And I think that house rules are very important. There's been some
>suggesôns here which I swallowed and digested and I will be puing them
>out to my co-players.
I hope you'll tell about these experiences.
>Of course I don't want to keep anyone from pos^ng crikers, spells or
>campaigns :-)
Thank you, Your Highness ! ;-)
More seriously, I can't think anyone wan^ng this.

Bye
Alain
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 15:53:35 +0100

Hi again !

Jesse Roberge wrote :
>Your're right. I was assuming playing a mage without loads of PP
adders/mul^pliers. The spells are quite devasta^ng at high levels. I also
>never acutally played the game, since it runs much too slow, so I don't
know how fast people gain levels.
It depends greatly on the GM. As I already told, the power-level of
the campaign and the rate of growing in levels/abiliês and in the capable
hands of the GM.

>I wasn't accusing the campaign seing at all, just the game system itself,
and the potenâl for GMs to let players abuse Heka.
Sorry, I misunderstood your point. You are right when you say that
heka abuse by players is to be blamed on laxist GMs. It's also a personnal
choice made by each playing group. GMs have the means to impose their law,
but this must also been accepted by the players. But the game system is not
bad, it's the misuse/overuse that have to be blamed.

>Yeah, I could say so with technology and heka being treated as =. A
nuclear weapon equivalant cas^ng would cost thousands of heka points.
If it's possible, of course ! And such an heka concentraôn and
sudden release, would be totally safe for the caster (maybe some kind of
heka-radiaôns due to over-exposure or the rending of the reality resul^ng
in inter-dimensionnal riv/maelstrom... or whatever you like to make the
caster think twice next ^me! )

Bye
Alain
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 17:07:54 -0800
Reply-To: Jason@WGS.co.uk
From: Jason Browne <Jason_Browne@WGS.CO.UK>
Organizaôn: WorkGroup Systems

I've just joined the Mythus list and missed part 1. Could you send me a
copy please.

You're doing a wonderful job ( morale boost ;-) ). Have you or anyone
else done a version for the k/s? When I ran it, I found the skills and
knowledge descripôns hard to understand. I'm thinking of running it
again so when I found this list I joined.

Is there an electronic version of the rules. The k/s I would really
like to rewrite.

Jason.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 13:39:05 -0500
Subject: Need help with beginning players!

Okay, I have a few quesôns on the best way to bring a few neophyte
roleplayers in the DJ family.
1. Would you recommend using Myhtus Prime or Advanced Mythus?
2. If using Advanced Mythus, what rules would you exclude/include?
3. Does anyone have any good adventures for beginning players out there?
If you do could you either e-mail me a copy or tell me where to nd it.
I don't want to spend a lot of ^me on seing up a game, if none of my
players actually want to switch from the system being run now (BTW its
Palladium Fantasy, 1 ed.)
4. Has anyone done any conversions for Palladium games? If so, where are
they, and if not is anyone interested in helping me do them?

Scok Payne
The Praetor is your judge, jury and execuôner (e.g. a harsh JM). Not
that I am one, I just take a game or two to get a feel for the strength of
a party in a new game. Lots of that never happened last week going on.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 17:38:26 -0600
In-Reply-To: <199611280513.WAA175596@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca> from "Robert
Wol" at Nov 27, 96 10:13:10 pm

Rob,

I appreciate the post, but let us give credit where credit is due.
The majority of our combat rules are due to the eorts of Rob Wright and
Mike Hill. My role was primarily playtes^ng and construc^ve
cri^cism. Mike is the JM which ac^vely alters the rules for us. We
are his guinea pigs for his (some^mes insidious) experiments. Our
opinions of his ideas are noted and discussed un^l a common consensus is
reached. I don't necessarily agree all the ^me, but I go with the ow.

One important item I forgot to menôn in my pos^ng was the cumula^ve
eects of Mental, Spiritual and Physical damage. We felt the system
needed some serious readjustments for handling M/S damage, as the
cas^ngs which inict it are rather pathe^c. However, if even a few
points of M/S damage can aect an HP, then they become somewhat more
potent and more u^lized. Physical damage is too easy to block and is
primarily expected in any sort of conict. M/S damage, on the other
hand, is not so apparent or readily used, mainly because under the
ocial rules, fully 80% of an HP's M/S TRAIT must be depleted in order
to be aected. We thought this was not right. Do you have any idea how
painful it is to have one's soul ripped out of one's body? It hurts, let
me tell you. Even minor M/S damage should have an eect. Also, for
those very physically powerful monsters, M/S damage is an alterna^ve to
outright killing them, especially if they are M/S decient. To use an
example, my Cavalier Joren once defeated an Ogre my turning it into a
Spiritual zombie with his sword (it inicts 3d6 S dam with each hit and
for 50 points of heka can do another 5d6). It took much less ^me to
defeat the monster than trying to cut it into pieces. The RL of an
ogre's Strait is much less than the RL of his Ptrait, so even a
rela^vely small amount of damage will aect its performance.

For HP's who receive more than one type of damage (M/P/S), the result is
a cumula^ve one. For EACH RL of trait taken in bakle, whether M/P/S,
he is penalized the 10% in ALL STEEP, +1 to Speed Factors, -10% movement.
For instance, if Joren takes 2 RL in Physical damage and 1 in Mental,
then all subsequent use of STEEP is at -30%. We use the logic that all
skills are somewhat interconnected, though each is also separate from the
others. If they weren't, then why would Physical damage aect Mental
skills (they do under the ocial rules)?

I might have more on this later.
I am glad you like the idea.

Malcolm Hays
mhays@umr.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 18:49:25 -0800
Subject: Re: Mythus Database]
X-To: Todd South <tsouth@INETWORLD.NET>

> I didn't receive the .LDB le. Could you send it to me direct,
> please? Thanks!

I Zipped it this ^me so the mailing server won't reject it because of length. I'll send a copy to you direct
as well
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 19:45:22 -0800

Subject: Mythus Database
X-To: Todd South <tsouth@INETWORLD.NET>


--------------27765E261785

> I didn't receive the .LDB le. Could you send it to me direct,
> please? Thanks!

I Zipped it this ^me so the mailing server won't reject it because of length. I'll send a copy to you direct
as well

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--------------27765E261785-=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 00:46:19 -0500

>Do you have any idea how
>painful it is to have one's soul ripped out of one's body? It hurts, let
>me tell you.

OK, tell me.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 07:50:45 -0600
Subject: Re: Need help with beginning players!

Scok Payne wrote:
>
> Okay, I have a few quesôns on the best way to bring a few neophyte
> roleplayers in the DJ family.
> 1. Would you recommend using Myhtus Prime or Advanced Mythus?
> 2. If using Advanced Mythus, what rules would you exclude/include?
> 3. Does anyone have any good adventures for beginning players out there?
> If you do could you either e-mail me a copy or tell me where to nd it.
> I don't want to spend a lot of ^me on seing up a game, if none of my
> players actually want to switch from the system being run now (BTW its
> Palladium Fantasy, 1 ed.)
> 4. Has anyone done any conversions for Palladium games? If so, where are
> they, and if not is anyone interested in helping me do them?
>
> Scok Payne
> praetor@widowmaker.com
> The Praetor is your judge, jury and execuôner (e.g. a harsh JM). Not
> that I am one, I just take a game or two to get a feel for the strength of
> a party in a new game. Lots of that never happened last week going on.
For conver^ng Palladium characters, Mul^ply IQ by 5 to get the ATT
ra^ng. Then apporôn the points to Mnemonic and Reasoning based on
the character's past acôns (i.e does he really think that well or does
he rely on what the player knows - pseudo memory I call it). Average
PS and PE and mul^ply by 2 for Muscular. Mul^ply PP by 2 for
Neural(opônally average with SPD). Mul^ply MA by 2 for Metaphysical
and ME by 2 for Psychic.

Hit Points and SDC are irrelevant. Convert armor to the nearest
approximaôn in Mythus.

For skills I would do one of two things. First choice would be to nd
a vocaôn compa^ble to what you were and assign skills based on its
scheme. Give the player say 5 bonus points per level to assign to
skills. I would limit a skill advancement to no more than 2 points per
level per skill. (To avoid 100+ STEEP in 1 hand sword, etc..).

The other choice would be to look at his exis^ng skills and nd the
most compa^ble match in the lis^ngs. Divide their current percent
chance by 2 and it should then be in a good range for Mythus. If you
think about it an average diculty roll is made at a modier of x2 so

they are not really losing anything. Using this method, Weapon skills
and STEEP will be a problem. Depending on the level of your campaign
try the following formula. Mages get 6 x level STEEP in weapon skills.
Priests get 10x and Warriors get 14x. Then they can take these points
and divide them between weapon skills to get the equivalent of what they
had before. A 5th level mage could have a 15 skill in Hand Weapons and
15 in Missile Weapons. A 5th level warrior might divide 35 hand, 35
Missile and 20 to Weapon Skills, Special.

For rst ediôn mage and priest types you will need to evaluate what
kinds of spells they had and their alignment. Obviously Warlocks
convert to Dweomer/Elemental or Green. Good align go to White, selsh
to grey and evil to black. I suggest a Dweomercrav and magic ra^ng of
20 + 5xlevel. Try something similar with priests. Unless you are
changing from your own game world to Aerth, I would not allow any rolls
for Full prac^cioner. There is no existence of such a thing in the
Palladium world and would seriously unbalance the environment. Likewise
if you are staying in one world where they would have a relaônship
with a deity then you might allow parâl prac^ôners with a Vow of
service mul^plier of level -5.

I have not actually done this or play tested it. If you have quesôns
or just want to let me know if it works for you or not I would be glad
to here from you.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 10:41:32 -0500

Scok Payne wrote:
>

As a new JM, I ran both MYTHUS PRIME(MP) and ADVANCED MYTHUS(AP.) MP was
rst, and I ran it for new players for the system. I am glad I did, for
AP is an overwhelming system. My players were just as overwhelmed if not
more so. If you are not interested in chasing your players away, start
of with MP.

> 2. If using Advanced Mythus, what rules would you exclude/include?

I s^ll am working on this currently. When I know more I will send you
some informaôn.


"High Time at the Winged Pig" was an execellent ^ny adventure that is
introduce the players to MYTHUS and introduce their characters. You can
nd "High Time at the Winged Pig" in the MYTHUS PRIME Book 0 or the
regular DANGEROUS JOURNEYS: MYTHUS Book 1 in the MYTHUS PRIME secôn.
Perhaps, you might want to checks Mike Phillips' MYTHUS web page too.

Later
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 17:01:12 -0500
Subject: A possible future for DJ.

Just thought you'd all like to know something.

There is a possibility Gary Gygax will come back to TSR...or never...

Explainaôn: There have been some inroads into TSR geing both Gary
Gygax and Rob Kuntz back to do a few projects for Greyhawk, including the
original City and Castle of Greyhawk. (Y'know, the real deal). I already
know that Rob K. has been willing to do stu for Dragon and Dungeon.

This could be a boon for Mythus indirectly. If things go well with this
project, then TSR may consider some ocial Mythus support, probably not
as a full system but perhaps ar^cles in Dragon/Dungeon, or something akin
to that. Keep in mind AD&D is TSR's prime source of income, and is likely
to be favored by TSR.

However... there is a s^cky situaôn in this regard. Gary is completely
furious at TSR, more than normal, because Sean Reynolds (in what appears
to be temporary insanity, I would think) made a raveout against him on the
newsgroup hierarchy, accusing him of abusing cocaine based on another's
statements. (Sean apologized, but had no proof of this, and as /the/ TSR
spokesman...ouch). It's really placed a BIG dent into things...

I'll let you know more as ^me passes... I /hope/ there's hope...
==================
John R. Troy (JRT)
johntroy@âc.net
==================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 14:44:49 +0200
Eccles" at Nov 28, 96 08:19:36 pm

> of the notes are typo correcôns or notes on claricaôns which are needed
> on certain issues. I welcome any comments on this round and hope it is
> useful to one and all.

This is a job must be done, so I thank you for trying simplify and
clarify all those lovely typos within Mythus Magic. Here is some comments.

> pg. 36, "Trigger Eect Formula": [CLARIFICATION] This is the Zapruder lm
> of Cas^ngs. (My apologies for the non-Americans who may not understand that

> 3. As wriken, there is nothing that says you can't have three "Trigger
> Eects" on yourself set to ac^vate three defensive Cas^ngs that all share
> the same trigger. This seems to let a dweomercraever set up a super-defence
> at one word, making them untouchable. (Imagine a single word ac^va^ng
> "Reverse Akack", "Armor, Physical", and "Heka Shell"!) The only excepôn
> is the Grade VII Cas^ng "Doublecast", which allows the conjoining of two
> Cas^ngs at once. It seems logical that a low-grade Cas^ng should not be
> more powerful than a high-grade Cas^ng.

> 4. If this Cas^ng can ac^vate other Cas^ngs, where does the Heka come
> from, and how does it draw it forth? One of my players wanted to put
> "Fireash" on pebbles and use "Trigger Eect" to have them go o on
> impact, crea^ng what he referred to as "spell grenades." I don't think that
> this Cas^ng stores Heka, so it could not draw the Heka out of an inert
> pebble when there is none.
> It is clear that there are a lot of unanswered quesôns here; I hope that
> these points will help JMs place reasonable restricôns on the use of this

You menôned Doublespell or something alike, as only spell
allowing combining two spells. I think it is viable soluôn: You can
create anything triggerable by combining Trigger Eect and spell it
targets. If you cannot combine two spells, you can use only second-type
trigger.

Kautsu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ani Kauâinen Student of computer science at University of Turku

Pyydysmaenê 19
20660 LITTOINEN
FINLAND
------------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 09:14:53 +0000

On Thu, 28 Nov 1996, Donald Eccles wrote:

> pg. 34, "Bounce Charm": [EDIT] to be consistent with other Cas^ngs, this
> Cas^ng should have its Distance componenet listed as "1 rod/10 STEEP", not
> "1 rod per10 STEEP".
> [CLARIFICATION] The Cas^ng Area is "1 creature or item". What is the limit
> of Area if not a discrete item? The E/F/M notes that it can be applied to a
> wall, but could it be applied to, say, an en^re Viking dragonship?

I don't see why not, although more likely the limit would be, say, a
par^cularly large creature (say, an ogre), in which case it could be an
*area* of the wall or, say, the prow of the ship. Which leads to the
rather ridiculous noôn that a Dragon couldn't use it to save his tail
if his wings were shot o or something...

I'd leave it alone un^l the quesôn came up, using some sort of
ludicrosity measure. e.g. A Dragon could save himself, but a wizard
couldn't save that ying castle with something as minor as a bounce
(although it could be individually applied to the *contents*).

> pg. 36, "Trigger Eect Formula":
> 1. The duraôn is listed as "Permanent or Instantaneous". I understand
> that these refer respec^vely to use 1 and use 2 as laid out in the Cas^ng's
> E/F/M, but is "Permanent" really "Permanent", and not "Permanent un^l
> triggered," as is true for other Cas^ngs like "Heka Trap Spell"? I feel
> sure that this cannot be as powerful as described, especially since it is
> only a Grade I Cas^ng.

Permanent un^l triggered, I should think. I will say that this is the
sloppiest Cas^ng in the book, with no real examples of usage, etc.

> 2. If this Cas^ng really allows one to set another Cas^ng to go o at a
> triggering event, why bother having spells like the aforemenôned "Heka Trap
> Spell", since even a moderate-level dweomercraever would have access to
> higher-grade Cas^ngs like Heka Darts that do much more damage? Again, this
> seems awfully powerful for Grade I.

My interpretaôn is that the second Cas^ng is cast *at the ^me the
trigger is set*. So, the Heka is spent then. Others have said that the
Heka is drawn at the ^me of triggering, with appropriate penalês for
distance.

> It is clear that there are a lot of unanswered quesôns here; I hope that
> these points will help JMs place reasonable restricôns on the use of this
> Cas^ng in their campaigns.

It is *denitely* the sloppiest-wriken Cas^ng. I can't blame Dave for
not wan^ng to take credit for it ;-) My rule of thumb is to be preky
liberal with it (and most Cas^ngs), with the caveat that I must be told
in advance of all Triggers, when they were set, and what Triggers them.
Oh yeah, and I keep a TRIGGER ALL TRIGGERS handy in case the players stop
self-policing ;-)

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 09:17:54 +0000

On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Donald Eccles wrote:

> pg. 8, table: several errors and/or inconsistencies between this table and
> the descripôns of the Heka-producing K/S Areas in the Mythus book; here
> are the correcôns I have made:
> "Apotropaism" should be "STEEP + (MMCap+MRCap) x 0.5"
> "Spellsongs" should be "STEEP + (MMSpd+MRSpd) x 0.5"
> "Endurance" should be "STEEP + (PMPow+PNPow) x 0.5"
> "Heka-Forging" has contradictory informaôn: the table lists "STEEP + PM
> CATEGORY" as the formula, yet note 5 and the descripôn in the rst book
> say that the average of PMPow and PNPow is the case in all instances [save
> where a persona draws his Heka from Physical K/S areas only (when it is the P
> TRAIT )] as the addiôn to STEEP. The "PM CATEGORY" reference is most
> likely an error.
> "Music" should be "STEEP + (PMSpd+PNSpd) x 0.5"
> "Smithing" is missing from the table; it should be placed aver "Music" and
> its Base Heka Generaôn is "STEEP" (only). Note that, as claried
> somewhere in one of the MMMs, this Heka is available for use in any K/S Area,
> not just Physical ones.
> "Conjuraôn" should be "STEEP + (SMPow+SPPow) x 0.5"
> "Poetry/Lyrics" should be "STEEP + (SMSPd+SPSpd) x 0.5"
> "Religion" should be "STEEP + SP CATEGORY," not "SMPow" (as menôned in MMMM
> somewhere)
> "Sorcery" should be "STEEP + (SMPow+SMSpd) x 0.5"
> Note 5: is inconsistent with the table as noted above.

If I recall my history of the system correctly, the tables originally
agreed with the tet. Then, it was noted by the editor(s) that the Heka
generaôn was a likle on the slim side, so they beefed up the tables
slightly. Unfortunately, they did not correct the text, and thus an
instant problem.

I play with the tables as wriken, as it gives the HP's more breathing
room. Using the text instead of the tables results in weaker PP's of any
sort. What can I say, I like a magic-heavy fantasy game ;-)

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:46:55 +0200
Subject: Combat: WL, CL, etc., or: "yet another system"

Hello,
Since everyone has been talking about their systems for EL, RL, CL,
WL, etc., I gured I should post another one. Please note that I don't
use this system; it's just something I thought up:
For every RL of damage an HP suers, there is a -1 to iniâ^ve, 10%
reducment to STEEP, +1 to dodging, and whatever else you wish to add to
this package.
What I like about this system is that it uses numbers you already
have, has a lot of steps (-10% of P, -20% of P, -30%, etc.), and workes
equally well with any with dierant HPs who have dierant P Traits.
QUESTION:
If someone was to charge at someone else (in combat), what +/- will he
gain/suer?
Akiva Esterson
ISRAEL
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 14:28:42 EST

Scok Payne writes:
>Okay, I have a few quesôns on the best way to bring a few neophyte
>roleplayers in the DJ family.

ok, shoot!

>1. Would you recommend using Myhtus Prime or Advanced Mythus?

Is the party containing people who've played Mythus already? Or are they
ALL new? If they are ALL new, I agree with Mike and start at Mythus
Prime. Advanced will overwhelm the players (and new JMs) and perhaps
cause them to not want to invest the ^me into learning a new system,
unfortunately. Plus the headache on the JM trying to
A: explain EVERYTHING to the players
and
B: watch the players to make sure they are deduc^ng heka, wri^ng down
their damage, etc........ (some new people have no clue when you say "ok
that cas^ng cost you 35 heka, mark it o." huh? even if you explain
something prior to play, they aren't always going to get it.)

>2. If using Advanced Mythus, what rules would you exclude/include?

Start out using averaged armour. And then work into piece by piece armor
values.
Also, I'd stay away from Mental and Spiritual Combat, and only use those
cas^ngs which can cause that kind of damage. That might be a beker
idea than to have the game stop for everybody, while you try to explain
the way to menatlly drain someone, while the guy next door wants to slash
at everything with his scimitar.

>3. Does anyone have any good adventures for beginning players out
>there? If you do could you either e-mail me a copy or tell me where to
nd
>it. I don't want to spend a lot of ^me on seing up a game, if none
of
>my players actually want to switch from the system being run now (BTW
its
>Palladium Fantasy, 1 ed.)

the two in the book (winged pig is a good start, the slave one, though
really needs mature players who have the paênce to meekly take their
bea^ngs and bide their ^me to plan an escape/takeover)
Also, some old EGS (AD&D) modules could be converted with a minimum of
diculty--turning orcs, etc. into ugly mean humans, stu like that.

>4. Has anyone done any conversions for Palladium games? If so, where
>are they, and if not is anyone interested in helping me do them?

nope.
Another thing I found out this weekend while playing with some newer
players is that some^mes they don't really know the limitaôns of some
cas^ngs, such as that it'll only be ac^ve for 4 CTs, so I ac^vate it,
and wait for the acôn to start (it never did). So you might want to
pick out a few spells or spell lists for begining player, so they don't
have to know 1400+ cas^ngs, and how to u^lize them eec^vely (which
requires Prac^ce and experience).

Also did any responses help for that paper you were working on?
Did you even receive any?

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 15:34:08 -0500

<< If I recall my history of the system correctly, the tables originally
agreed with the tet. Then, it was noted by the editor(s) that the Heka
generaôn was a likle on the slim side, so they beefed up the tables
slightly. Unfortunately, they did not correct the text, and thus an
instant problem.

I play with the tables as wriken, as it gives the HP's more breathing
room. Using the text instead of the tables results in weaker PP's of any
sort. What can I say, I like a magic-heavy fantasy game ;-) >>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This was ocially addressed by GDW shortly aver the game was released.
The tables are incorrect and should reect the average of the akributes
involved.

Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:27:44 +0000
In-Reply-To: <m0vTuNY-000199C@widomaker.com>

On Sat, 30 Nov 1996, Scok Payne wrote:


I'll take a shot at this :-)


Mythus Prime *IF YOU HAVE THE BOOK*. Mythus Prime from the main book is
prac^cally unplayable, and the con^nual references to Advanced Mythus

will likely drive the seasoned JM nuts. Trust me on this one ;-)

Mythus Prime also decreases the iniâl complexity signicantly, thereby
reducing the iniâl hurdle.


Er. I have some adventures and adventure seeds on my Mythus page (see
the signature le), but I don't know how useful they would be. I keep
meaning to write up the three or four I used once upon a ^me...

Some of the adventures in Journeys magazine were preky good, and they
adapted easily enough.

> I don't want to spend a lot of ^me on seing up a game, if none of my
> players actually want to switch from the system being run now (BTW its
> Palladium Fantasy, 1 ed.)

AD&D adventures and GURPS adventures can be adapted reasonably well if
you have a stock already. Again, I have conversions on my Mythus site.
I've used the AD&D conversions a couple ^mes for Prime adventures (I was
running a game set in Thunder Riv for my in-laws for a while), so they
do work reasonably well.

Going from AD&D directly to Advanced Mythus, though, is a Bad Idea.
There are too many likle inconsistencies in how the two systems handle
stu, and too many gaps have to be lled in. It's much easier to go
AD&D -> Prime -> Advanced, even if you have no intenôn of using the
Prime version.

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:13:07 +0000

On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Richard Crook wrote:

> << If I recall my history of the system correctly, the tables originally
> agreed with the tet. Then, it was noted by the editor(s) that the Heka
> generaôn was a likle on the slim side, so they beefed up the tables
> slightly. Unfortunately, they did not correct the text, and thus an
> instant problem.
>
> I play with the tables as wriken, as it gives the HP's more breathing
> room. Using the text instead of the tables results in weaker PP's of any
> sort. What can I say, I like a magic-heavy fantasy game ;-) >>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------->
> This was ocially addressed by GDW shortly aver the game was released.
> The tables are incorrect and should reect the average of the akributes
> involved.

Sorry, my brain was on vacaôn. Side eect of three Thanskgiving
Dinners and one St. Andrew's celebraôn in four daze. Er, days.

I *intended* to refer to the reasons why in the rst prin^ng, the
textual descripôn did not match the table (barring typos on averaging)
for certain entries (such as K/S Areas genera^ng Cas^ngs, but NO Heka,
or Heka equal only to STEEP). I never cross-referenced against the
second prin^ng, although I kept meaning to, to see if this error was (at
least parâlly) corrected.

Sorry for the confusion.

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 11:35:59 +0200
from "Mike Phillips" at Dec 2, 96 09:14:53 am

> On Thu, 28 Nov 1996, Donald Eccles wrote:
>
> > pg. 34, "Bounce Charm": [EDIT] to be consistent with other Cas^ngs, this
> > Cas^ng should have its Distance componenet listed as "1 rod/10 STEEP", not
> > "1 rod per10 STEEP".
> > [CLARIFICATION] The Cas^ng Area is "1 creature or item". What is the limit
> > of Area if not a discrete item? The E/F/M notes that it can be applied to a
> > wall, but could it be applied to, say, an en^re Viking dragonship?
>
> I don't see why not, although more likely the limit would be, say, a
> par^cularly large creature (say, an ogre), in which case it could be an
> *area* of the wall or, say, the prow of the ship. Which leads to the
> rather ridiculous noôn that a Dragon couldn't use it to save his tail
> if his wings were shot o or something...

I think increasing diculty and Heka-cost of spell along with

area aected will drop human or mundane Heka-meddlers soon of; Their
heka-reseirvoirs are _very_ limited aver all...

Kautsu
Pyydysmaenê 19
20660 LITTOINEN
FINLAND
------------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 04:45:05 -0500


>

*shameless plug follows*

I hacked out some griky sci rules for DJ some ^me ago (like about three
or four years). Most of the stu is up at
hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/genres/abyss/abyss.toc.html (start at
.../mythus/ it's a bit easier) last ^me I checked. I've since worked on
some GURPS rules for it, but haven't really done any more background material
(most of the stu is rolling around in the old noggin, and I've not the ^me
to put it through the old microchips). Unfortunately, I didn't make up any
rules for super-tech hand weapons, though I've got a bit of that rolling
around in the noggin as well (has a lot to do with using d10s instead of d6's
for damage...lots less rolling and much more realis^c...but that's been
discussed before).

Hope you enjoy 'em.

Lucifer >:}
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 11:52:18 +0200
Subject: Mad GOd

There is my idea about 'evil Atlantlan god'. He is called Mad God
and no one remembers his original name. A long ^me ago he was quite
powerless god, nearly as powerful as minor demons. Suddenly a poor
dweomecraver, of black school, summoned him in accident, and he succeeded
to forge the Pact with pathe^c magician. The pact included sacricing
six souls per year to the Mad God, in exchange of Heka, and spreading the
word of the Mad Dog: 'Only you mean something! Sacricing lesser people
for acquiring your goals is not only your right, but also your des^ny!'.
The Mad God was suprised about overwhelming amout of early Atlantlans
willing to serve him, and become powerdrunk, not aware of his surroundings
and followers. Other gods knew the des^ny of this upstart, but they
didn't told it to him; All souls he gathered for his power melded with his
soul. At the beginning his will pwer was sucient to control the chaos,
'cause most Atlantlan sacriced to him was his followers, but when
Atlantlan fell, his followers started to sacrice followers of other
deiês. Their dierent beliefs became rot of the soul of the Mad God,
nally pushing him over the edge, into the Madness. Only thought that
lled his spliked personality was need of souls; His abiliês began
deteriorate when dierent facôns of his soul started to ght against
each other, thus he needs those souls to keep himself alive, or so he
thinks.

If he is able to unite his facôns, he would be _very_ powerful
god, but all facôns was^ng their power strugling for supremacy keeps
his abiliês quite low. He _is_ able to give his follower quite awesome
pacts, but his followers will soon become alike to him, falling into
madness due melding with his god for power. He is not evil, just mad, so
I call vows of his followers pacts, because they work like pacts; when
someone pledges a religious vow to this god, he accepts madness and loss
of himself due melding with god. (Most of his followers won't understand
this un^l it's too late).

Each sacrice increases the momentum of deterioraôn, because
the soul whose lifeforce was sacriced melds with the Mad God, thus
increasing power of one or more facôns. There is only a few true
believers of this god, all of them are priests, thus sacricing souls of
non-believers and bringing doom to their god. (There is facôn of priests
of the Mad God, who think this is the only way to save their own soul from
madness).

Any good ideas? I'd like them.

Kautsu
Pyydysmaenê 19
20660 LITTOINEN
FINLAND
------------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 10:33:42 -0500
Subject: web site

I have a short aside to all the great discussion that's been going
on here. I no^ced that a few of you have links to my old mythus page
(home.ptd.net/~hagendaz/mythus.html). I nally got around to puing up a
page here at college. The address is wso.williams.edu/~chagenbu/mythus.
Please link to it, as I can no longer maintain the old page and took it
down.
All the rest of you - the page is s^ll in the process of being
revamped, and with nals and all I probably won't get to it un^l
January, but interim comments are very, _very_ welcome. I'll consider all
suggesôns - thanks in advance!

-chuck
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 18:41:39 +0200
Subject: Re: web site
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.961203102951.4461A-100000@colrain.williams.edu>
from "Charles Hagenbuch" at Dec 3, 96 10:33:42 am

> All the rest of you - the page is s^ll in the process of being
> revamped, and with nals and all I probably won't get to it un^l
> January, but interim comments are very, _very_ welcome. I'll consider all
> suggesôns - thanks in advance!

Please, could everyone add their email into their signature. I
wasn't able to nd out personal adress of chuck 'cause MYHTUS-L don't
have X-sender (or something alike) telling email of original poster.

And everybody crea^ng their own websites, please make checking is
visitor using graphical or text-based browser. I use text-browser, 'cause
I won't need those _slow-downed_ pictures when I seek some _informaôn_.
(No oense intented...)

Kautsu

Pyydysmaenê 19
20660 LITTOINEN
FINLAND
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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=gFWf
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:27:48 -0800
Subject: Re: Mythus database is NOT FINISHED no data, just cool design.
X-To: "Westphalen, Wayne" <wwestphalen@radisson.com>

> Jesse,
>
> I was wondering what you do to get that Mythus Database working. I
> have MS Oce 95, but I haven't goken much of an opportunity to work
> with Access...I tried opening the MDB le and it seemed to work but
> whenever I tried to open one of the lists (like Armor Types)...I was
> only able to see one goofy-looking line of informaôn. Now, I remember
> someone saying something about the LDB le...but I have NO idea what
> the heck that does...any help you can give would be greatly
> appreciated...since I don't know what the hell I'm doing.

I as said earlier (Actually, almost a week ago, because it didn't send right, and then the 2nd ^me the list
server rejected it, and the 3rd
^me seems successful), the database design is not nished, and there is no data in it. I sent it because
everybody was so anxious to see
it.

Did you see the character sheet form? It is not nsished yet, but it does look good.

You can enter your own data if you wish through the data-entry forms. However don't enter spell or K/S
sub-area data because there's a
promblem that I don't know how to x without restructuring the database. That K/S area name eld is
liked to the K/S area table and any
data entered there will get stored on the K/S area lis^ng table. If you enter data into both tables, things
will really get screwed up.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 19:01:31 +0100


Hello Ani,

> Please, could everyone add their email into their signature. I
>wasn't able to nd out personal adress of chuck 'cause MYHTUS-L don't
>have X-sender (or something alike) telling email of original poster.

Have a look at the "From"-Header.

Joerg
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 14:34:14 -0500
In-Reply-To: <96Dec3.184150+0200_eet.32764-5882+358@utu.>

> Please, could everyone add their email into their signature. I
> wasn't able to nd out personal adress of chuck 'cause MYHTUS-L don't
> have X-sender (or something alike) telling email of original poster.

My address is 00cjh. And the 'from' eld show's people's
addresses for me in pine and Cyberdog.

> And everybody crea^ng their own websites, please make checking is
> visitor using graphical or text-based browser. I use text-browser, 'cause
> I won't need those _slow-downed_ pictures when I seek some _informaôn_.
> (No oense intented...)

Then none taken, I suppose. But you might no^ce before
condemming all of us as bandwidth-ea^ng hogs that Mike's site,
which in my opinion is by far the best one out there, is formaked VERY
nicely to show up well in any browser, and on my site the only things that
lynx doesn't handle are the herbs tables. Truth be told, they take
forever to format in Netscape. If you (or anyone!) has a suggesôn for a
beker way to present that informaôn, I'm all ears.

-chuck
00cjh@williams.edu
hkp://wso.williams.edu/~chagenbu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 20:44:56 -0600

Subject: Re: Mad GOd

>word of the Mad Dog: 'Only you mean something! Sacricing lesser people
>for acquiring your goals is not only your right, but also your des^ny!'.

this gods true name wouldnt happen to be nietszche would it? :-)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:39:56 +0200
Subject: Re: Mad God

Okay, I'm sorry, but I'm using elm for reading mails. From header
don't include email. I found it out. (Huh, it was lovely to seek all those
lovely headers ;) My apologies

My idea about Mad God wasn't based on Nietche, 'cause I haven't
yet read his books. I got the idea when I read rwol's rules for
Highlanders. (They were good, IHMO. Thanks Bob(?)). Actually 'nother idea
for Mad God was god of Sunlight needing believers sacrice themselves to
keep god in power and sun in sky. (From Incas okay...) His decay started
when one of his priests decided to sacrice unbelievers captured during
war to his god. The only mo^vaôn of this god was keep his followers
lawful and alive, and he didn't pay much akenôn to them as
individueals. Otherwise tale go as my rst mad god.

My intetenôns was to explain _laws of gods_ somehow; These laws
are created by forces of order and chaos, forces older than this world.
The way gods learned them was mistakes of other gods. The mad god was
example of abdominaôn, god who broke the rules, shunned by other gods.

Kautsu

Pyydysmaenê 19
20660 LITTOINEN
FINLAND
------------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 13:28:00 -0600
X-To: "Prince O. Darkness" <Noc^fer@AOL.COM>

Ok...I think that the "Abyss" genre looks good....but I can only see 2
or 3 of the secôns....something like the "inro", "solar system", and
one other secôn. I was trying to access it from Mike's mythus page
(which rocks) and could only nd the aforemenôned items. Is the rest
of it done? If so, where can I nd it?

Has anyone heard anything from Dave Newton? Wasn't he supposed to be
hooking up with another game designing company and publishing some
stu? I can't remeber what it was the company was called but I think
someone out there has a link to it on their Mythus web page.

Wayne Westphalen
----------------------------------------------- waynelw@ix.netcom.com
or
-----------------------------------------------
"we have enough youth,
how about a 'fountain of smart'?"

---------From: Prince O. Darkness
Date: Tuesday, December 03, 1996 3:45AM


>

*shameless plug follows*

I hacked out some griky sci rules for DJ some ^me ago (like about
three
or four years). Most of the stu is up at
hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/genres/abyss/abyss.toc.html
(start at
.../mythus/ it's a bit easier) last ^me I checked. I've since worked
on
some GURPS rules for it, but haven't really done any more background
material
(most of the stu is rolling around in the old noggin, and I've not the
^me
to put it through the old microchips). Unfortunately, I didn't make up
any
rules for super-tech hand weapons, though I've got a bit of that rolling
around in the noggin as well (has a lot to do with using d10s instead of
d6's
for damage...lots less rolling and much more realis^c...but that's been
discussed before).

Hope you enjoy 'em.

Lucifer >:}
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 19:16:34 -0500

At 01:28 PM 12/4/96 -0600, Westphalen, Wayne wrote:
>Ok...I think that the "Abyss" genre looks good....but I can only see 2
>or 3 of the secôns....something like the "inro", "solar system", and
>one other secôn. I was trying to access it from Mike's mythus page
>(which rocks) and could only nd the aforemenôned items. Is the rest
>of it done? If so, where can I nd it?
>
>Has anyone heard anything from Dave Newton? Wasn't he supposed to be
>hooking up with another game designing company and publishing some
>stu? I can't remeber what it was the company was called but I think
>someone out there has a link to it on their Mythus web page.
>
>Wayne Westphalen

Dave's s^ll on the list, to the best of my knowledge. But as far as
QMS??? I no^ced that the abervon web page has all but disappeared. I
haven't heard any doings from them on the net, and there was one USENET
poster wondering "what happened" to them.

Dave did announce that he was in "semi-re^rement" from RPGs this past
summer here on the list. It makes me think that QMS folded or something
akin to that occured.

But that's not as bad as Mak Pearson. :) Mak kinda made a ash
appearance in here, and even purchased a domain name for Dangerous Journeys
(www.djourneys.org), which was hosted on a game company he joined. I did a
web page template for him, and converted a few ar^cles. Within a month,
the domain name couldn't be found on-line, and Mak was nowhere to be
found, though the domain's s^ll listed in the InterNIC.

(If he ever does get back on-line, he should transfer control of the domain
name and/or list to Mike Phillips, since he runs his own server and has
been stable, IMO)

===========================================================================
===
| John R. Troy (JRT) | SHARING.COM is an organizaôn devoted to geing
|
| johntroy@âc.net | people involved with chariês during Holidays.
For |
| Seasons Gree^ngs! | more info, see the site at
hkp://www.sharing.com/ |
==============================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 10:37:35 +0200
Subject: Vocaônal and K/S traits.

I have another stupid idea. What about _changing_ vocaônal
traits for K/S advancement costs. This mankes sense IMHO, 'cause people
seem to become more Spiritual-oriented when they grow older. Here is my
suggesôn for non-xed K/S cost.

First, each person has Primary, Secondary and Terâry TRAITs,
determined by the scores of TRAITs. Primary trait would have greatest
value and terâry smallest. At the beginning, character must have their
vocaônal TRAIT highest, but the secondary trait can vary.

The STEEP-cost for Primary trait is 1, 1.5 for secondary and 3 for
terâry. This allows HPs with Physical vocaôn who learn Mental K/S
areas faster than Spiritual or vice-versa. If two TRAITs are equal, the
STEEP-cost for both of them is equal to average of their cost. (Ie. HP has
equal P and M traits, both of them greater than S trait, so each STEEP of
both P and M K/S areas costs 1.25 APs...)

Kautsu
Pyydysmaenê 19
20660 LITTOINEN
FINLAND
------------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:53:29 -0800
Subject: Re: Mythus database is NOT FINISHED no data, just cool design.
X-To: Mike Wikek <wikek@suntan.eng.usf.edu>

Mike Wikek wrote:
>
> Jesse Roberge:
>
> What database program did you use to make this database that you sent to
> everbody?

The win 3.x version of Microsov Access 2.0

> -> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------> Mike Wikek |"Democracy isn't just the best form of govern> USF engineering student |ment; It's the only one even remotely worth a
> wikek@suntan.eng.usf.edu|damn. Only democracy guarantees that people
> Sun City Center, FL USA |get what they deserve." --Zena Marley
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 17:20:46 +0100
Subject: Mythus database adding

Hi, specially to Jesse Roberge
I have a le version of all K/S and sub K/S entries with base heka, related
base traits and K/S cross-feeding. Are you interested in this for your
database ? And in what format do you want it ? Now it is ms word 6/7
tab-separated, but I can convert it.
Bye
Alain (berthon@unimeca.univ-mrs.fr)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 17:30:44 +0100
Subject: Re: Vocaônal and K/S traits.

Hi to everyboby !

Kautsu, your idea about transfering the vocaônal trait makes sense. It's
clear and very simple to apply. Just one thing : your HPs will have to wait
for traits evoluôn caused by ageing to be eec^ve to reect the
'cause people seem to become more Spiritual-oriented when they grow older'
as you said.
Bye
Alain
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 18:03:33 +0100

Subject: Re: Mythus database adding

Hi Alain, Hi everyone,

>I have a le version of all K/S and sub K/S entries with base heka, related
>base traits and K/S cross-feeding. Are you interested in this for your
>database ? And in what format do you want it ? Now it is ms word 6/7
>tab-separated, but I can convert it.

Just post it to the list in the Word format (if it's not too big), I think
everyone wants it.
I have done a spell list for Word, it's not nished yet, but when I'm
done, I will post this also.

Keep gaming,
Joerg
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 11:07:02 -0600

[Joerg wrote:]
>I have done a spell list for Word, it's not nished yet, but when I'm
>done, I will post this also.

You may want to check out:

hkp://www.pvv.unit.no/~leirbakk/mythus/mythus_totalcas^ngs.html

This could save a lot of database creators some work. Plus the site itself
is chock full of nivy info
<hkp://www.pvv.unit.no/~leirbakk/mythus/akira_index_e.html>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 19:50:18 +0100

--=====================_849930529==_

Hi everyone,

>Just post it to the list in the Word format (if it's not too big), I think
>everyone wants it.
Ok, but I send the le akached in zip format to save transfering ^me.
(le name : ks_list.zip)
>I have done a spell list for Word, it's not nished yet, but when I'm
>done, I will post this also.
Send it when you'll have nished. :-)

BTW, if you note errors or have suggesôns, please mail to me
(berthon@unimeca.univ-mrs.fr)
I'll be back...
Alain

--=====================_849930529==_
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--=====================_849930529==_-=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 14:47:31 -0600
Subject: Morale and Re: Mythus database adding
Dec 6, 96 07:50:18 pm

Grumble, Grumble.

Gosh I hate it when people post binary les to mailing lists.

But anyway, I will be running a fairly large scale combat soon
with about 200 combatants on a side. Although why they want to
ght with nearly equal odds is beyond me. I'm just the GM. I
was wondering if anyone had any ideas on how to resolve morale.

I know it should depend on training, condence, casualês, and

situaôn. Does anyone have any good, workable ideas?

Dan.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:55:39 -0800
Subject: Update on Mythus Database


--------------E7BA75537

I worked on the database today. I think it is almost data-ready. I s^ll have to add spells and equpment to
the character sheet.

Improvements:

I xed the inter-table data entry bugs, so entering data in forms that run of queries that join tables
should not screw up the list (Game
data) tables. I xed it by the making the actual names instead of ID #s be the primary keys in the game
data tables. Item names now link
driectly from the data tables and the character list tables.

I made the armor list table beker. It is now possible to make a query that will make a full armor prole.
I will design it later.

I worked on the character sheet some more. It is about 80% done.

Future improvements:

I want to add data validaôn that won't allow power and speed stats to exceed capacity stats.

I want to add a full armor prole to the character sheet.

I want to separate the weapons and armor sub-forms into a second 'page 2' character sheet form. I'm
geing ^red of scrolling up and down to
see what things look like.

I want to improve the data entry forms so they are preier and easier to handle--actually look like the
sub-forms in the character sheet form.

More ideas are sure to pop up.

Here's updated database:

--------------E7BA75537

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--------------E7BA75537-=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:57:10 -0800

>
> Hi, specially to Jesse Roberge
> I have a le version of all K/S and sub K/S entries with base heka, related
> base traits and K/S cross-feeding. Are you interested in this for your
> database ? And in what format do you want it ? Now it is ms word 6/7
> tab-separated, but I can convert it.
> Bye
> Alain (berthon@unimeca.univ-mrs.fr)

Sure. I have access to WordPerfect 6.1 at the college. I have MS Works 3.0 on my computer at
home.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:01:50 -0800

Subject: Mythus database: Last Minuite comment

Oh yeah: The database is half the size and twice as good. Compac^ng
the database of all those deleted tables, relaônships, and queries
helped.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 02:38:34 -0400
Reply-To: gearz@auracom.com
From: Keith Russell <gearz@AURACOM.COM>
Subject: help!

I know this is a likle o topic from the database that's trying to get
built but..

I want to know if anyone out there has problems with people who want to
play but who don't/can't show up for each part of the campaign ?

also..

I am having a problem keeping the higher level warriors and ghters
"entertained" with some camaigns.. they just get bored being able kill
almost everything in a few swings of an axe or blade, but these HP's are
really nicely developped and I don't want to lose them..any ideas ??

Keith Russell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 09:34:16 -0600

>Yes I live in a small town called Brook Park Mn. It is right on the
>Minnesota-Wisconsin border. If you email me your phone number, maybe
>I could get over there. I have a regular game that I run every
>Friday. Maybe we could get together and run something.
>
>Randy

Hi!

We play in EC, LaX and Arcadia. We would be glad to host or travel. let
me know. My e-mail is on the fritz. You can call 608 323 3783

AJ=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 13:55:57 -0600


> There is my idea about 'evil Atlantlan god'. He is called Mad God
>and no one remembers his original name. A long ^me ago he was quite
>powerless god, ... <snip> ... needs those souls to keep himself alive, or so he
>thinks.
>
> If he is able to unite his facôns, he would be _very_ powerful
>god, but all facôns was^ng their power strugling for supremacy keeps
>his abiliês quite low. He _is_ able to give his follower quite awesome
>pacts, but his followers will soon become alike to him, falling into
>madness due melding with his god for power. He is not evil, just mad, so
>I call vows of his followers pacts, because they work like pacts; when
>someone pledges a religious vow to this god, he accepts madness and loss
>of himself due melding with god. (Most of his followers won't understand
>this un^l it's too late).

Lekme see, how did that go.... Why vote for the lesser Evil?
>
> Each sacrice increases the momentum of deterioraôn, because
>the soul whose lifeforce was sacriced melds with the Mad God, thus
>increasing power of one or more facôns. There is only a few true
>believers of this god, all of them are priests, thus sacricing souls of
>non-believers and bringing doom to their god. (There is facôn of priests
>of the Mad God, who think this is the only way to save their own soul from
>madness).

> Any good ideas? I'd like them.

I think the product line you may wish to persue is Cuthulu. Seeing there
is not a direct line dedicated toward Mythus, this is the Deity I use for
Atlantl. Also there is a lot of support material, and possible genre
conversions. I'm glad to see we have similar ideas about Atlantl. :)

AJGood Gaming!
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 10:50:01 -0500
Subject: Re: help!
X-To: gearz@auracom.com

Some ideas for making things more challenging for Arms Vocaôn HPs:

1. If they have weapons specializaôn with one category, take away their
specialized weapon once in awhile, which forces them to ght with weapons
that are not in their category. There are several ways to do this, some
permanent and others temporary. Guards armed with the various weapons that
allow disarming who have specialized in that area, magne^c items, dropping
them into a pit of something viscous while a weapon is in hand so they have
to drop it in order to save their own life, and of course the rather
deria^ve criker that rusts metal (assuming the troublesome weapon is in
that category). Another way to do this is wait un^l they've specialized in
something like one-handed swords, then allow them to aquire as their only
enchanted weapon a whip or some less-common weapon.

2. Since they have such high BACs naturally, heap condiôns on them that
reduce it to a more challenging FAC. One good way is to get them
underground, then douse the light source and surround them with foes that
have no problem seeing in the dark. Tear gas, slimy or mucky ground, being
forced to ght downslope, and such thngs are also useful. If their BAC is
really high, don't forget to use several of these at once.

3. If the HPs haven't discovered shields and/or parrying yet, make sure the
EPs know and use these principles. A round or tower shield parry by someone
suitably trained can take the wind out of the sails of the mighty ghters
preky quickly, especially if they've trained with 2-handed weapons up unitl
now. Of course, if they already know this, it's ^me for ...

4. Mul^ple foes. Maybe they have sucient strength and STEEP to be
dealing out 30 or 40 points (Non-Vital) on each of their 3 akacks per CT (or
more with Floren^ne and/or Quicken involved), but even so if one ghter is
facing three men who have three akacks/CT also, it becomes a likle more
sweaty for the HP. Also remember that an organized force of intelligent foes
could include missle weapon-users, which make things more challenging for all
those sword-wielders.

5. Monsters which have Invulnerabiliês to the HP's primary akacks force
them to re-think many of their standard tac^cs. In a similar vein, have
four or ve foes skilled in non-lethal gh^ng dogpile the super-slicer HP
and disarm him. Then he'll have to duke it out bare-handed.

6. Finally, there are any number of Heka-related tac^cs to use against
those pesky ghter types, such as Reverse Akack, Weakness/Strength Drain,
Clumsiness, and so forth. As a last resort, a couple of foes with a LOT of
Joss to spend on making the HP's akacks miss automa^cally and/or do minimum
damage is also an acceptable, though slightly cheesy, tact. (Never try to
ght the Luckiest Man In The World, who always has 13 Joss and a handful of
four-leaf clovers...)

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 12:38:55 -0400

Subject: Re: help!

I wish to thank everyone who sent some help my way... and since none of
my players have inet access.. here's the story as it's gone so far....

a man "looking" about 40, slight build, about 4'10" or so has recruited
the HP's to quest for a dragons gold. he commands what seems to be alot
of magic and wears a ring with the glyf of the sun god RA carved on it.
One of the HP's being from egypt no^ces. He gathers the HP's (3
warriors and an green dwoemercraev) in a small town in britan and tells
them of a secret lair of a dragon and oers 10 000 gold + an equal
share of the treasure. they leave for the treasure the next day. They
run into a band of thiefs who akack them and well.. you know the
rest..(hack, slash,.. burp). on the second day the discover a group of
faries who seem akracted to a few of the HP's (the warrior from egypt,
the dwoemercraev, and Draka (the guy who got them together)). Eric (
warrior from egypt) nds out from on of the faries that Draka is much
MUCH older than he seems being about 200 years old...

This is where they lev o for the weekend.. I introduced the faries so
that if they gure it out they can use them to more easily get the
treasure. What they haven't gured out yet is the Draka is actually the
dragon who has been captured in human form by a evil dwoemercraev and
has to get back to his secret lair to reverse the spell. he can't go
back alone because it is guarded by various golems and other odd and
nasty things that he can't ght alone. I think this will sa^sfy their
need to kill and well as make them think a bit.

Any suggesôns ??? I have only the rule, magic, and Aearth beasâry
so I don't have alot to choose from that are really nasty:) .. so any
help at all would really be greatly appreciated..

thanks again to all those who helped

Keith

ps. My mythus page will be up soon with all kinds o good stu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 23:00:36 -0800
X-To: Malcolm Carter <malcolmc@ramlink.net>

Malcolm Carter wrote:
>
> Hi,
> Is the only way to use this database within Access or some other database

Unless you can convert it for use with another database management
program, you can only use it with Access.

You could make a mythus GM aid program that will use some of the tables
in the database as data. I've seen a few AD&D DM aid programs that use
access databases as their data les.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 21:59:30 -0500

At 11:00 PM 11/27/96 -0800, you wrote:
>Malcolm Carter wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>> Is the only way to use this database within Access or some other database
>
>Unless you can convert it for use with another database management
>program, you can only use it with Access.
>
>You could make a mythus GM aid program that will use some of the tables
>in the database as data. I've seen a few AD&D DM aid programs that use
>access databases as their data les.

I view it from the data manager part of Visual Basic 4.0. I just wondered
how people without access to a database app could view it. I could throw
together a viewer program if you can tell me what you need.
>
>

\\| J.R. Carter
\\ / / \ \ \ \ USA
--------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 00:19:38 -0600

If you are interested, I have a friend who owns something
called the "Microsov Access Developers Kit" (or something
like that). Retail price is approximately $1500. The

upshot of this thing is that it includes a MS Access
run^me which can be distributed with your MS Access
data les royalty free. While it doesn't let you all of
the program creaôn things that the regular access
product does, it does allow you to view and work with
applicaôns already developed in Access. (Plus it has
the advantage of not having all of those extra MS Access
windows in the background when your app is running...or so
I am told). I would be happy to re-package your app, bundled
with this viewer. My guess is that the viewer is quite large,
but at least this would provide some sort of access to the
program even if people don't have access to MS Access.

Later,
krk.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 13:30:43 +0200
In-Reply-To: <v01530503aecf1cfa9e09@[208.140.3.96]> from "John Schmidt" at Dec
7, 96 01:55:57 pm

> > Each sacrice increases the momentum of deterioraôn, because
> >the soul whose lifeforce was sacriced melds with the Mad God, thus
> >increasing power of one or more facôns. There is only a few true
> >believers of this god, all of them are priests, thus sacricing souls of
> >non-believers and bringing doom to their god. (There is facôn of priests
> >of the Mad God, who think this is the only way to save their own soul from
> >madness).

I add something to this paragraph I wrote. The momentun of
deterioraôn is increased, because almost all souls sacrised worships
other god with dierent beliefs. Each soul melded to the god creates new
personality facôn due his beliefs.

> I think the product line you may wish to persue is Cuthulu. Seeing there
> is not a direct line dedicated toward Mythus, this is the Deity I use for
> Atlantl. Also there is a lot of support material, and possible genre
> conversions. I'm glad to see we have similar ideas about Atlantl. :)

And one of my intenôns was give reason for the fall of Atlatl;
Too many Atlantlans believed on this god. When Atlantlan expanded beyond
their island, the creaôn of the Mad God started, but was slow at the
beginning. The non-atlantlan gods united against this terrible
abdominaôn and sunk Atlantlan.

Kautsu

Pyydysmaenê 19
20660 LITTOINEN
FINLAND
------------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 03:42:37 +0100
From: Leif-Magnus Jensen <leif-mj@ONLINE.NO>
Subject: Mythus Magick

Hi! I've just found the mailing list and I have a quesôn about
Mythus
Magick. We're a group in Norway of ve, some^mes more players, and
so far we have only been able to get hold of two copies of Mythus Magick.
Needless to say, all the players have some need for this book, and so
we are a bit frustrated. I know the books are ocially out of print,
but does anybody know of anywhere I can s^ll get hold of them? If not, any
other ideas? - (please don't say photocopy)

Thanks,

Leif-Magnus Jensen
Bergen School of Business
Norway
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 16:48:59 +1300

> Hi! I've just found the mailing list and I have a quesôn about Mythus
>Magick. We're a group in Norway of ve, some^mes more players, and
>so far we have only been able to get hold of two copies of Mythus Magick.
>Needless to say, all the players have some need for this book, and so
>we are a bit frustrated. I know the books are ocially out of print,
>but does anybody know of anywhere I can s^ll get hold of them? If not, any
>other ideas? - (please don't say photocopy)
>
> Thanks,
> Leif-Magnus Jensen
--------------
Hi, and welcome to the list!

If you have world wide web access, then the best place to look is at the
various on-line gaming shops and second-hand traders on the web. Those I've
dealt with, found reliable, and recommend are as follows:

Michael Cox - hkp://www.dragontrove.com/gdw.html (drgntrov@dragontrove.com)

Quincey Koziol - hkp://www.^tan-games.com (koziol@ncsa.uiuc.edu)

Gordon Johansen - hkp://www.sentrybox.com (sentrybx@nucleus.com)

They will ship overseas, including by surface mail if cost is an issue.
What's available in the way of Mythus stu varies, as goods come and go.
Mike Cox has three copies of Mythus Magick at the moment (I just checked
earler today), and most of the other ^tles. Gord Johansen has some boxed
Mythus Presents sets and may have more single copies of Mythus Magick.

Hope this helps -
Malcolm
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:21:40 -0800

> >You could make a mythus GM aid program that will use some of the tables
> >in the database as data. I've seen a few AD&D DM aid programs that use
> >access databases as their data les.
>
> I view it from the data manager part of Visual Basic 4.0. I just wondered
> how people without access to a database app could view it. I could throw
> together a viewer program if you can tell me what you need.

That'l be cool. But the cool parts of the database are the forms, in which the only way I know you can
view and use them is usicng Access.
Plus the forms run o queries that do minor calculaôns and join tables so that the forms look good
(Especially when you are working on the
character's armor/weapon/equipment
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:25:22 -0800

Ken Kitowski wrote:
>
> If you are interested, I have a friend who owns something

> called the "Microsov Access Developers Kit" (or something
> like that). Retail price is approximately $1500. The
> upshot of this thing is that it includes a MS Access
> run^me which can be distributed with your MS Access
> data les royalty free. While it doesn't let you all of
> the program creaôn things that the regular access
> product does, it does allow you to view and work with
> applicaôns already developed in Access. (Plus it has
> the advantage of not having all of those extra MS Access
> windows in the background when your app is running...or so
> I am told). I would be happy to re-package your app, bundled
> with this viewer. My guess is that the viewer is quite large,
> but at least this would provide some sort of access to the
> program even if people don't have access to MS Access.

Sure. I don't know how it works with forms and queries though. The
forms are the coolest part and they are dependant on the queries that
join tables together and do calculaôns for some minor automaôn.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 23:33:00 -0800
From: Love and Kisses <xxooxx@MAILMASHER.COM>
Subject: Truth in business - Part 1 of 3
X-To: ADND-L@LISTSERV.UTA.EDU

What follows is my answer to the treatment which TSR has brought
to it's customers and other gaming resources in both the real
world and the Internet. Whether, Rob Repp or Sean Reynolds, the
spokesman "online" for TSR has consistently stated the company
is not interested in controlling the market. This is a lie.
Their acôns represent a bully approach to business and the
intelligence of consumers, both current and past. If you, the
reader, truly believe they have not gone overboard on the virtual
monopoly they keep through threats and power then read this copy
of the second supplemental answer to GDW's rst set of interroga^ves to the plain^ (TSR).

Before anyone tries to deny the document, stop. I don't care
whether you believe this or if you want vericaôn of it's
authen^city. It is real and it represents TSR's irresponsible
use of the American court system in sustaining their monopoly.

Read this carefully. Understand the broad ramicaôns of this
document if a court had actually granted them a win instead of
them sekling out of court. All it would take is one American
Federal Court to throw the en^re gaming and book publishing
industry into a monopoly with these aitudes. TSR fully claims
ownership of ALL properês of magic concept and mental/psionic
concept. This aects ALL INDUSTRIES which use classic fantasy

and science côn genres.

Some formaing will be dierent at the original was in Arial
font and this needs to be text for the widest distribuôn.
--------------------------------------------------------------

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE CENTRAL DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS, PEORIA DIVISION

TSR, INC., )
)
Plain^, ) No. 92-1230
)
v. ) Judge McDade
)
GAME DESIGNERS' WORKSHOP, INC. ) Magistrate Kaufman
d/b/a GDW, INC., and GDW, )
OMEGA HELIOS, LTD., and )
E. GARY GYGAX )
)
Defendants )
)

TSR'S SECOND SUPPLEMENTAL ANSWER
TO GDW'S FIRST SET OF INTERROGATORIES TO PLAINTIFF

Plain^, TSR, Inc. ("TSR"), hereby further amends and
supplements it's answers to GDW's First Set of Interrogatories to
Plain^.

GENERAL OBJECTIONS

TSR incorporates herein the General Objecôns contained in TSR's
Responses to GDW's First Set of Interrogatories to Plain^.

ANSWERS

Interrogatory 3(b). If plain^'s response to subpart (a) of
this interrogatory as set forth in TSR's Response to GDW's Interrogatory
No. 3(b). TSR also repeats and incorporates as if set forth herein and
further amends and supplements its First Supplemental Answer to GDW's
First Set of Interrogatories

======Page 1 Ends/Page 2 Starts======================================

to Plain^ (TSR's "First Supplemental Answer"). Each numbered
paragraph herein of the same number as a numbered paragraph in TSR's
First Supplemental Answer corresponds to and replaces such paragraph
therein. Each paragraph in TSR's First Supplemental Answer for which
there is no correspondingly numbered paragraph herein is not being
amended, supplemented or otherwise aected by this Second Supplemental
Answer.

(1) In MYTHUS (pages 101, 335 and 387) and MYTHUS MAGICK (page
91), the "Drow" game character is derived from the "Drow" game character
in the AD&D 1st ed. FIEND FOLIO book (hereinaver "AD&D FF")[1] (pages
33-34); the AD&D DEITIES & DEMIGODS book (page 107); the AD&D HALL OF
THE FIRE GIANT KING game module (pages 15-16); TSR's DRAGON Magazine,
issue #16 (page 17); the AD&D 1st ed. MM (page 39); the AD&D UA (pages
10-11); the AD&D LL (page 92); and the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (page 13).

(2) The Heroic Persona Akrac^veness rules in MYTHUS (pages 18,
102 and 391) are derived from the Comeliness rules in the AD&D UA (pages
6-7); TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #67 (pages 61-62); and the WORLD OF
GREYHAWK boxed set's Glossography (pages 33-34).

(4) The concept of adjus^ng a character's abiliês
corresponding to its age found in MYTHUS (pages 104-105) is derived from
the similar concept in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (page 13).

(6) In MYTHUS (pages 94-95), the non-human player races,
including gnomes, dwarves, alfar (elves) and alfen, are derived from
similar
_____________________________
[1] The abbreviaôns used herein are the same as those used in TSR's
First Supplemental Answer to GDW's First Set of Interrogatories to
Plain^. For convenience, those abbreviaôns are as follows: The
AD&D 1st ediôn PLAYERS HANDBOOK book is hereinaver "AD&D 1st ed.
PHB"; the AD&D UNEARTHED ARCANA book is hereinaver "AD&D UA"; the AD&D
1st ed. DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE book is hereinaver "AD&D 1st ed. DMG";
the AD&D LEGENDS & LORE book is hereinaver "AD&D LL"; the AD&D 1st
ediôn MONSTER MANUAL book is hereinaver "AD&D 1st ed. MM"; the AD&D
ORIENTAL ADVENTURES book is hereinaver "AD&D OA"; the AD&D MONSTER
MANUAL II book is hereinaver "AD&D MM II"; TSR's MULTIVERSE UNIVERSAL
ROLE PLAY SYSTEM - MULTIVERSE PROSPECTUS AND INITIAL CONCEPTS is
hereinaver "TSR's MULTIVERSE PROSPECTUS"; and the D&D RULES CYCLOPEDIA
book is hereinaver "D&D RC.


non-human player races, including gnomes, dwarves, elves and halings,
in the AD&D DEITIES AND DEMIGODS book (pages 106-110); the AD&D 1st ed.
PHB (pages 15-17); the AD&D UA (pages 8-12); and the AD&D LL (pages
91-95).

(7) The MYTHUS concept of character vocaôns in MYTHUS (pages
13 and 70-71) is derived from the character class concept in the AD&D
1st ed. PHB (pages 18-33); the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pages 16-21); and the
AD&D UA (pages 12-25 and 74-75).

(8) In MYTHUS (page 67), the concept of and the method by which
the game characters' akributes are dened by randomly-generated
numbers, and the players' choices of vocaôns precede and alter such
akribute generaôn, are derived from a similar concept and method in
the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pages 11-12) and the AD&D UA (page 74).

(9) The Thief game character in MYTHUS (pages 13-14, 16 and 83)
is derived from the Thief game character in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages
19, 26-28 and 107); the AD&D UA (pages 12-13 and 22-25); TSR's DRAGON
Magazine, issue #65 (page 9); TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #69 (pages
20-23); and the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pages 17 and 19-20).

(10) The Priest game character in MYTHUS (pages 85-86 and 407)
and MYTHUS MAGICK (pages 10 and 21) is derived from the Cleric game
character in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages 19-20, 40 and 43).

(11) The Assassin game character in MYTHUS (page 83) is derived
from the Assassin game character in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages 19,
28-30 and 107); the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pages 17-21 and 75); and the AD&D
UA (pages 12-13).

(12) The Mys^c game character in MYTHUS (pages 81-82, 298 and
406) is derived from the Mys^c game character in TSR's DRAGON Magazine,
issue #65 (page 9) and TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #67 (pages 27 and
61).

(13) The Cavalier game character in MYTHUS (pages 13-14, 75 and
78) is derived from the Cavalier game character in the AD&D UA (pages
14-17); TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #65 (page 9) and TSR's DRAGON
Magazine, issue #67 (page 61); and TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #72
(pages 6-11).

(14) The Savant game character in MYTHUS (page 407) is derived
from the Savant game character in TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #65 (page
9) and TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #67 (pages 27 and 45).

(15) The Mountebank game character in MYTHUS (pages 13-14, 16,
21, 83-84 and 406) is derived from the Mountebank game character in
TSR's


DRAGON Magazine, issue #65 (page 9) and TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #67
(page 61).

(16) The Bard game character in MYTHUS (pages 404-405) is
derived from the Bard game character in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages
117-119) and TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #56 (pages 5-11 and 74-75).

(17) The K/S Area of Buoonery in MYTHUS (pages 179-182) is
derived from the Jester character class in TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue
#60 (pages 45-49); TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #65 (page 9); and TSR's
DRAGON Magazine, issue #67 (page 61).

(18) The term "Archmage" in MYTHUS (pages 61 and 142) is derived
from the terms "Archmage" in TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #16 (page 16)
and TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #70 (page 22); "Arch-Mage" in the AD&D
1st ed. PHB (page 26) and TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #70 (page 21);
and "Archmagi" in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (page 152).

(20) The Mercenary/Soldier game character in MYTHUS (page 78) is
derived from the Fighter game character in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages
19 and 22) and in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (page 16).

(21) The Dweomercraever game character in MYTHUS (pages 78-81
and 142) is derived from the Magic-User game character in the AD&D 1st
ed. PHB (pages 19, 25-26, 40-41 and 64) and the AD&D UA (pages 79-80).

(22) The Green School Dweomercraever game character in MYTHUS
(pages 79 and 81) and MYTHUS MAGICK (pages 345-346) is derived from the
Druid game character in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages 19-21, 40-41 and
54); TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #65 (pages 9-10); TSR's DRAGON
Magazine, issue #93 (pages 8-9); the AD&D UA (pages 16-17); and the AD&D
LL (pages 26-31).

(23) The Gray School Dweomercraever game character in MYTHUS
(pages 78-79) is derived from the illusionist game character in the AD&D
1st ed. PHB (pages 19, 26, 40, 42 and 94) and the AD&D UA (page 80).

(24) The Priestcraever game character in MYTHUS (pages 85-86,
195-196, and 407) is derived from the Cleric game character in the AD&D
1st ed. PHB (pages 19-20, 40 and 43).

(25) The Hunter game character in MYTHUS (pages 87-88) is
derived from the Ranger game character in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages
19 and 24-25) and the AD&D UA (pages 21-22).


(26) The MYTHUS Warrior game character in MYTHUS (pages 87 and
89) is derived from the Barbarian game character in the AD&D UA (pages
18-21) TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #63 (pages 8-11); TSR's DRAGON
(pages 63-66).

(27) The concept of "Vocaônal Traits" in MYTHUS (pages 13, 64
and 67) is derived from the similar concept in the AD&D game system in
the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (page 11); the AD&D UA (page 74); and the AD&D 1st
ed. PHB (pages 9-13, 20, 22 and 24-27).

(28) The Mul^verse adventure concept in MYTHUS (pages 6-7, 47,
190, 295, 297, and 385-395) and MYTHUS MAGICK (pages 5, 21-22, 43, 104,
158-159, 239-240 and 309) is derived from the Mul^verse system found in
the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pages 40, 57-58, 86-87, 112-114 and 155-157); the
AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages 50, 52, 114-116 and 120-121); the AD&D UA (page
3); the AD&D MANUAL OF THE PLANES book (throughout, but par^cularly,
pages 3, 5-10 and 117-119); TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #8 (pages 4 and
28); TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #32 (pages 12-13); TSR's DRAGON
Magazine, issue #71 (pages 19-22); TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #73
(pages 10-13); the AD&D DUNGEONLAND game module (throughout, but
par^cularly, page 2); the AD&D THE LAND BEYOND THE MAGIC MIRROR game
module (throughout, but par^cularly, page 2); the AD&D ISLE OF THE APE
game module (throughout, but par^cularly, pages 2-3, 6 and 8); the AD&D
QUEEN OF THE DEMONWEB PITS game module (throughout, but par^cularly,
pages 3 and 13-18); the AD&D QUEEN OF THE SPIDERS game module (pages 4,
94, 107-111 and 126); and TSR's MULTIVERSE PROSPECTUS (pages 2 and 6-7).

(29) The Plane of Shadow in MYTHUS (pages 190 and 402) and
MYTHUS MAGICK (pages 21-22, 75, 81, 188 and 305-307) is derived from the
Plane of Shadow in the AD&D DEITIES & DEMIGODS book (Appendix 1, page
129); the AD&D MANUAL OF THE PLANES book (page 21); TSR's DRAGON
(pages 10-13).

(30) The "Accomplishment Point" system in MYTHUS (pages 29, 40,
134-136 and 303-304) is derived from the "Experience Point" system in
the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pages 84-86 and 228) and the AD&D 1st ed. PHB
(pages 106-107).

(31) The structure of the Planes in the Mul^verse system in
MYTHUS (page 401-402) and MYTHUS MAGICK (pages 21-22 and 300-301) is
derived from the structure of the Planes discussed in the AD&D 1st ed.
DMG (pages 57-58); the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (Appendix IV, pages 120-121);
the AD&D LL (pages 113-118); the AD&D MANUAL OF THE PLANES book (pages
5-7, 22-23, 51-52 and 73-74); TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #8 (pages 4
and 28);


TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #32 (pages 12-13); and TSR's DRAGON
Magazine, issue #73 (pages 10-13).

(32) The method used in MYTHUS (page 9) of resolving game acôn
by genera^ng random numbers on a linear probability scale is derived
from a similar method used in the AD&D game system in the AD&D 1st ed.
DMG (pages 9-10).

(33) The method used in MYTHUS (pages 9 and 236-238) of
determining game character damage using a weighted probability scale is
derived from a similar method in the AD&D game system in the AD&D 1st
ed. DMG (pages 9-10); the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 37); and the AD&D UA
(page 26).

(34) The order for resolving combat acôns in MYTHUS (page 208)
is derived from the order for resolving combat acôns in the AD&D game
system in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (page 61).

(35) The method set out in MYTHUS (pages 27-28 and 274-275) in
which rest is used to remove characters' points of physical damage is
derived from the method in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages 105-106) and the
AD&D 1st ed. DMG (page 82) for restoring lost hit points to a character.

(36) The "First Aid" skill in MYTHUS (pages 28 and 165) is
derived from the AD&D "Cure Light Wounds" spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB
(page 43) and the AD&D OA (page 57).

(37) The opônal rule mechanic which s^pulates that a heroic
persona does not necessarily die when it suers damage that reduces its
Physical Trait value to zero, but that it dies once it exceeds a certain
nega^ve total of Physical damage points, as set out in MYTHUS (page
70), is derived from a similar rule regarding nega^ve hit points in the
AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 105); the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pages 82 and 227);
and the AD&D 1st ed. MM (page 11).

(40) The K/S Area of "Apotropiasm" in MYTHUS (pages 137-138) is
derived from the "Glyph of Warding" spell and other Abjuraôn-class
spells in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages 44, 47, 49, 58-61, 67, 73, 75, 7778, 82-84, 86, 91-93, 96-97 and 100) and the AD&D UA (pages 36-38, 40,
54, 56, 58, 61, 63 and 69).

(42) The "Weapon Speed Factor" in MYTHUS (pages 209-210, 223,
225 and 235) is derived from the "Weapon Speed Factor" in the AD&D 1st
ed. PHB (pages 38 and 124); the AD&D UA (page 27); and the AD&D 1st ed.
DMG (pages 66-67).


(43) The rate used in MYTHUS (pages 263 and 266) to calculate
the amount of damage suered by a game character when it falls (1D6
points of damage per every 10 feet) is derived from the rate used to
calculate the amount of damage suered by a game character when it
falls (1D6 points of damage per every 10 feet) in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB
(page 105).

(44) The concept by which some of the power sources of Heka

(magic) are tapped from other Planes in MYTHUS (pages 21, 78, 81 and
276-277) and MYTHUS MAGICK (pages 5-9, 21-22, 301-302 and 305-307) is
derived from the concept by which the power sources for magic are tapped
from other Planes in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (page 40) and TSR's DRAGON
Magazine, issue #33 (pages 10-11).

(45) The concept in MYTHUS MAGICK (pages 28 and 113) whereby
cas^ng or spell vic^ms are allowed to roll dice against certain
personal character scores to prevent a spell from aec^ng them is
derived from the "Saving Throw" concept in the D&D RC (pages 33 and
109); the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 105); and the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pages
79-81 and 229).

(47) The name of the main world, "Aerth", in MYTHUS (pages 5 and
7-8), is derived from the name of a world, "Oerth," in the AD&D WORLD OF
GREYHAWK boxed set, specically in the Glossography (page 2) and Guide
(page 4).

(48) The races of other-world elves called the Elves, Fay and
Faeries, from the fantasy world known as Phaeree in MYTHUS (pages 332333), are derived from a race of other-world elves called the
"Pharisees" in the AD&D QUEEN OF THE SPIDERS game module (pages 107-108)
and the AD&D QUEEN OF THE DEMONWEB PITS game module (pages 13-14).

(49) The game turns mechanic in MYTHUS (pages 20 and 130-131)
are derived from the game turns mechanics in AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 39)
and the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (page 38).

(50) The "Heka Recovery Table" in MYTHUS (page 22) and the "K/S
Area Heka Regeneraôn" table in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 14) are derived
from the "Recovery of Psionic Strength Points" table in the AD&D 1st ed.
PHB (page 117).

(50) TSR withdraws this paragraph.


(53) The "Mul^genre" role-playing concept in MYTHUS (pages 6,
58, 295-297 and 385-392) and MYTHUS MAGICK (pages 4, 104, 309 and 331)
are derived from similar concepts in TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #17


(pages 6-9, 27-28 and 31); TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #18 (page 2223); TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #28 (pages 12-13); TSR's DRAGON
(pages 5-8 and 73-76); TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #68 (pages 18-22 and
72-75); TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #71 (pages 19-22); TSR's DRAGON
Magazine, issue #100 (pages 45-68); TSR's STRATEGIC REVIEW Magazine,
issue #3 (page 6); TSR's STRATEGIC REVIEW Magazine, issue #5 (pages 35); TSR's MULTIVERSE PROSPECTUS (pages 2 and 6-7); the AD&D 1st ed. DMG
(pages 57-58 and 112-114); the AD&D DUNGEONLAND game module (page 2);
the AD&D THE LAND BEYOND THE MAGIC MIRROR game module (pages 2 and 4-8);
and the AD&D EXPEDITION TO THE BARRIER PEAKS game module (throughout,
but par^cularly, pages 2-3).

(54) The concept in MYTHUS (pages 5-8, 295-297 and 385-392) and
MYTHUS MAGICK (pages 4, 43, 48-49, 69, 93, 102-104, 106, 109, 121-122,
129, 138-139, 148, 156-159, 227, 234, 239-240, 242 and 309) whereby the
game character travels from universe to universe and from genre to genre
is derived from a similar concept in TSR's MULTIVERSE PROSPECTUS (pages
2 and 6-7); TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #8 (pages 4 and 23); TSR's
DRAGON Magazine, issue #17 (pages 6-9, 27-28 and 31); TSR's DRAGON
(pages 12-13); TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #32 (pages 12-13); TSR's
DRAGON Magazine, issue #47 (pages 9-11); TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue
#57 (pages 5-8 and 73-76); TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #67 (pages 2745); TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #68 (pages 18-22 and 72-75); TSR's
#73 (pages 10-13); TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #75 (pages 16-33); TSR's
#83 (pages 31-52); TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #90 (pages 36-60); TSR's
#100 (pages 45-68); TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #113 (pages 10-26);
TSR's STRATEGIC REVIEW Magazine, issue #3 (page 6); TSR's STRATEGIC
REVIEW Magazine, issue #5 (pages 3-5); the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pages 7,
42, 57-58, 112-114, 137, 142, 155 and 181); the AD&D UA (pages 17 and
71); the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages 50, 52, 92, 100, 114-116 and 120-121);
the AD&D LL (pages 113-118); the AD&D MANUAL OF THE PLANES book
(throughout, but par^cularly, pages 3, 5-10 and 117-119); the AD&D
QUEEN OF THE DEMONWEB PITS game module (throughout, but par^cularly,
pages 3 and 13-18); the AD&D ISLE OF THE APES game module (throughout,
but par^cularly, pages 2-3, 6 and 8); the AD&D DUNGEONLAND game module
(throughout, but par^cularly, page 2); the AD&D THE LAND BEYOND THE
MAGIC MIRROR game module (throughout, but par^cularly, page 2).

(56) The concept in MYTHUS (pages 295-297 and 387-390) whereby
the game characters travel from epoch to epic is derived from the
similar concept in TSR's MULTIVERSE PROSPECTUS (page 6, item 4).


(57) The "Birth Rank" table in MYTHUS (page 103) is derived from the
"Birth Table for
Humans" in TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #70 (page 11) and the "Birth Table" in
the AD&D
UA (page 83).

(58) The "Posiôns by SEC [Socio-Economic Class] Table" in MYTHUS
(page 61) is
derived from the "Social Class Table: Typical Members of a Class" in TSR's
DRAGON
Magazine, issue #70 (page 11); "Typical Members of a Class" in the AD&D UA
(page 82); "The
Town and City Social Structure" in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pages 89-90); and
TSR's
DRAGON Magazine, issue #25 (pages 12-13).

(59) The concept of game play using gems, minerals and herbs having
special properês and
the structure of the tables containing such informaôn in MYTHUS MAGICK
(pages 6-7) are
derived from a similar concept and table structure in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG
(pages 26-27 and
220-221).

(60) The concept of magical devices changing powers and abiliês of
the game characters in
MYTHUS MAGICK (pages 332-371) is derived from the AD&D game system in the AD&D
1st
ed. DMG (pages 121-169).

(62) The "Map if the Mul^verse" in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 22) is derived
from similar
diagrams and descripôns of the "Known Planes of Existence" in the AD&D LL
(pages
113-118); the AD&D MANUAL OF THE PLANES book (pages 5-7, 22-23, 51-52 and
73-74);
the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages 120-121); TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #8 (pages 4
and 28);
and TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #73 (pages 10-13).

(63) The electrical circuit analogy in MYTHUS (pages 8, 21, 276 and
402) and MYTHUS
MAGICK (pages 5-6) to describe Heka and cas^ng is derived from a similar
analogy to describe
magic and cas^ng in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (page 40).

(65) The akribute format used for spells in MYTHUS (page 278) and
MYTHUS MAGICK
(page 32), including ^me, area, distance, Materia cost, explanaôn of
eects and grade, is
derived from TSR's works, including the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages 40 and
43-100); the AD&D
UA (pages 32-71); and the AD&D OA (pages 56-97), which use duraôn, area of
eect, range,
components, material cost, explanaôn of eects and level.

(66) The Detect Heka Spell in MYTHUS (page 278) and MYTHUS MAGICK
(pages 34
and 199) is derived from the Detect Magic Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages
44, 54, 65 and
95) and the AD&D OA (pages 58 and 75).

(67) The Disembodied Voice Formula in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 34) is
derived from the
Magic Mouth Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages 71 and 96).


(68) The Lock Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 34) is derived from
the Hold Portal Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 66) and the AD&D OA
(page 76).

(69) The Lock Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 34) is derived from
the Unlock Cantrip in the AD&D UA (pages 50-51).

(70) The Lock-Open Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 35) is derived
from the Knock Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 70) and the AD&D OA
(page 80).

(71) The Lock-Open Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 35) is derived
from the Unlock Cantrip in the AD&D UA (pages 50-51).

(72) The Magick Lock Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 35) is derived
from the Wizard Lock Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 72) and the
AD&D OA (page 81).

(73) The Shuast Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 35) is derived
from the Wizard Lock Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 72) and the
AD&D OA (page 81).

(74) The Quicken Cantrip in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 35) is derived
from the Haste Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 74) and the AD&D OA
(page 83).

(75) The Spiderwalk Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 35) is derived
from the Spider Climb Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 68) and the
AD&D OA (page 77).

(76) The Spidery Formula in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 85) is derived
from the Spider Climb Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 68) and the
AD&D OA (page 77).

(81) The Understanding of Ur Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 36) is
derived from the Comprehend Languages Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB

(83) The Ring of Treasure Finding in MYTHUS MAGICK (pages 336-
337) is derived from the Poôn of Treasure Finding in the AD&D 1st ed.
DMG (page 127).

(84) The Protecôn From Evil Cloak in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 361)
is derived from the Protecôn From Evil Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB
(page 44).


(85) The Wand of Heka Detecôn in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 337) is
derived from the Wand of Magic Detecôn in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (page
135-136).

(86) The Consecraôn Formula in MYTHUS (page 281) and MYTHUS
MAGICK (pages 107-108) is derived from the Glyph of Warding Spell in the
AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 47).


(88) The Consecraôn Formula in MYTHUS (page 281) and MYTHUS
MAGICK (pages 107-108) is derived from the Forbiddance Spell in the AD&D
UA (page 40).

(89) The Armor, Physical Cantrip in MYTHUS (page 278) and MYTHUS
MAGICK (page 34) is derived from the Armor Spell in the AD&D UA (pages
51-52).

(90) The Armor, Physical Cantrip in MYTHUS (page 278) and MYTHUS
MAGICK (page 34) is derived from the Shield Spell in the AD&D 1st ed.
PHB (page 68) and the AD&D OA (page 77).

(91) The Disjuncôn Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 34) is derived
from the Dispel Magic Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages 47, 59 and
73); the AD&D UA (page 69); and the AD&D OA (pages 62 and 82).

(92) The Reecôns Ritual in MYTHUS (page 278) and MYTHUS
MAGICK (page 35) is derived from the Reec^ng Pool Spell in the AD&D
UA (page 43).

(95) The Wickaame Charm in MYTHUS (page 278) and MYTHUS MAGICK
(page 36) is derived from the Produce Flame Spell in the AD&D 1st ed.
PHB (page 57).

(96) The Wickaame Charm in MYTHUS (page 278) and MYTHUS MAGICK
(page 36) is derived from the Firenger Spell in the AD&D UA (page 50).

(97) The Forcedart Charm in MYTHUS (page 278) and MYTHUS MAGICK
(page 37) is derived from the Magic Missile Spell in the AD&D 1st ed.

(100) The Ritual of the Heart Ritual in MYTHUS (page 279) and
MYTHUS MAGICK (page 38) is derived from the Find Familiar Spell in the


END OF PART 1 of 3
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 23:35:44 -0800


(132) The Erase Runes Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 77) is
derived from the Erase Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages 65-66) and
the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pages 41 and 44).

(134) The Mass Invisibility Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (pages 81-82)
is derived from the Mass Invisibility Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB
(page 88).


(140) The Thornspear Cantrip in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 86) is
derived from the Magic Missile Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 67)
and the AD&D OA (page 76).

(143) The Call Rainstorm Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 87) is
derived from the Cloudburst Spell in the AD&D UA (pages 35-36 and 43)

(144) The Fauna Telempathy Cantrip in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 87) is
derived from the Speak with Animals Spell Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB
(pages 46 and 55) and the AD&D OA (page 61).

(145) The Weatherlord Formuila in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 89) is
derived from the Control Weather Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages
52, 63 and 83).

(147) The Plant Telempathy Formula in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 90) is
derived from the Speak with Plants Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page
49) and the AD&D OA (page 67).


(153) The Riotgrow Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 94) is derived
from the Plant Growth Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages 57-58) and
the AD&D OA (page 86).

(154) The Aid Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 95) is derived from
the Cure Light Wounds Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages 43 and 56)

(156) The Daylight Cantrip in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 96) is derived
from the Light Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages 44, 67 and 95).

(157) The Helping Hand Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 96-97) is
derived from the Bless Charm in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 43) and the
AD&D OA (page 57).


(158) The Silver Spears Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 97) is

(159) The Dispel Evils Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 98) is
derived from the Dispel Evil Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 49) and

(162) The Parakinesis Cantrip in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 98) is
derived from the Telekinesis Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 82) and

(164) The Liv Curse Formula in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 100) is
derived from the Remove Curse Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages 47
and 78) and the AD&D OA (pages 64 and 86).

(165) The Psychokinesis Cantrip in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 101) is

(166) The Sphere of Inuence Cantrip in MYTHUS MAGICK (page
101) is derived from the Enthrall Spell in the AD&D UA (pages 34-35) and

(167) The Stasis Formula in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 104) is derived
from the Time Stop Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 93-94).

(170) The Produce Meal Ritual in MYTHUS (page 282) and MYTHUS
MAGICK (page 111) is derived from the Create Food & Water Spell in the

(171) The Healing, Minor Formula in MYTHUS (page 282) and MYTHUS
MAGICK (page 112) is derived from the Cure Cri^cal Wounds Spell in the
AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 49) and the AD&D OA (page 68).

MAGICK (page 112) is derived from the Cure Serious Wounds Spell in the
AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 48) and the AD&D OA (page 64-65).

(173) The Enlightenment Ritual in MYTHUS (page 283) and MYTHUS
MAGICK (page 112) is derived from the Commune Spell in the AD&D 1st ed.
PHB (page 49).

(174) The Heka Defenses Cantrip in MYTHUS (page 283) and MYTHUS
MAGICK (page 112) is derived from the Wall of Force Spell in the AD&D
1st ed. PHB (page 82) and the AD&D OA (page 89).


(175) The Word of Command Charm in MYTHUS (page 284) and MYTHUS
MAGICK (page 114) is derived from the Command Spell in the AD&D 1st ed.
PHB (page 43).

(178) The Miracle Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 116) is derived
from the Wish Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 94) and the AD&D OA
(page 97).

(180) The Detect Life Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 117) is
derived from the Detect Life Spell in the AD&D UA (page 34) and the AD&D
OA (page 60).

(181) The Enhance Aura Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 118) is
derived from the Know Alignment Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 45);
the AD&D UA (page 54); and the AD&D OA (page 63).

(182) The Sphere of Confusion in MYTHUS MAGICK (pages 119-120)
is derived from the Confusion Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 63)

(186) The Petrify Formula in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 123) is derived
from the Stone to Flesh Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 86) and the
AD&D OA (page 92).

(190) The Augury Formula in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 198) is derived
from the Augury Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 45) and the AD&D OA
(page 57).

(192) The Detect Invisible Object Cantrip in MYTHUS MAGICK (page
200) is derived from the Detect Invisibility Spell in the AD&D 1st ed.
PHB (pages 69 and 94) and the AD&D OA (page 78).

(194) The Clairaudience Formula in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 235) is
derived from the Clairaudience Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages 7273).

(198) The Penetrate Disguise Formula in MYTHUS (page 293) and
MYTHUS MAGICK (page 238) is derived from the Penetrate Disguise Spell in
the AD&D UA (page 33) and the AD&D OA (page 66).

(199) The Astral Projecôn Formula in MYTHUS MAGICK (pages 239240) is derived from the Astral Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages 52,
92 and 100) and the AD&D OA (pages 71 and 96).


(200) The Mys^c Missile Charm in MYTHUS (page 294) and MYTHUS
MAGICK (page 245) is derived from the Magic Missile Spell in the AD&D

(201) The Quesôndead Formula in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 251) is
derived from the Speak With the Dead Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page

(203) The Acclumsed Ode Cantrip in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 268) is
derived from the Fumble Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 77).

(205) The Alto Aire Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 271) is derived
from the Levitate Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 70) and the AD&D
OA (page 63).

(206) The Gooddrink Measure Cantrip in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 272)
is derived from the Purify Food & Drink Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB

(208) The Poisongone Tocsin Cantrip in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 274)
is derived from the Neutralize Poison Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB

(210) The Falseview Diky Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 274) is
derived from the Programmed Illusion Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB
(pages 99) and the AD&D OA (page 91).

TSR further states that between the indicated TSR works, on the
one hand, and the MYTHUS and MYTHUS MAGICK books of the DANGEROUS
JOURNEYS game, on the other hand, the following elements of similarity
also exist and support TSR's contenôn.

(211) The Banded Mail in MYTHUS (pgs. 25, 248 and 250) is
derived from the Banded Mail Armor in the D&D RC (pg. 67) and the AD&D
1st ed. DMG (pg. 27); the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 35-36); and the AD&D UA
(pg. 75).

(212) The Trigger Eect Formula in MYTHUS (pg. 278) and MYTHUS
MAGICK (pg. 36) is derived from the Con^ngency Spell in the AD&D UA
(pgs. 59-60) and TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #68 (pgs. 26-27).


(213) The Return to Sanctum Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 115) is
derived from the Succor Spell in the AD&D UA (pg. 41) and the TSR's
DRAGON Magazine, issue #68 (pg. 59).

(214) The dePayne's Disintegraôn Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg.
70) is derived from the Disintegrate Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg.
83).

(215) The Protecôn From Petricaôn Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK
(pg. 174) is derived from the Protecôn From Petricaôn Scroll in
the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pg. 128).

(216) The Protecôn From Poison Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg.
172) is derived from the Protecôn From Poison Scroll in the AD&D UA
(pg. 92).

(217) The Protecôn From Paralysis Charm in MYTHUS (pg. 285)
and MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 171) is derived from the Protecôn From
Paralyzaôn Scroll in the AD&D UA (pg. 91).

(218) The Netherbokle Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 176) is
derived from the Iron Flask in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pg. 148).

(219) The Heka Bolt Charm in MYTHUS (pg. 280) and MYTHUS MAGICK
(pg. 42) is derived from the Magic Missile Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB
(pg. 67) and the AD&D OA (pg. 76).

(220) The Slingstones Cantrip in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 60) is
derived from the Magic Missile Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg. 67)
and the AD&D OA (pg. 76).

(221) The Fireknives Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 60) is derived
from the Magic Missile Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg. 67) and the
AD&D OA (pg. 76).

(222) The Icearrows Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 60) is derived
AD&D OA (pg. 76).

(223) The Shadow Darts Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (pgs. 144-145) is

(224) The Penumbrate Points Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 144) is


(225) The Acid Jet Cantrip in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 161) is derived
AD&D OA (pg. 76).

(226) The Comprehend Cantrip in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 95) is
derived from the Detect Lie Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg. 48) and
the AD&D OA (pg. 65).

(227) The Aura of Decepôn Formula in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 124)
is derived from the reverse of the Detect Lie Spell in the AD&D 1st ed.
PHB (pg. 48) and the AD&D OA (pg. 65).

(228) The Know Truth Charm in MYTHUS (pg. 288) and MYTHUS MAGICK
(pg. 179) is derived from the Detect Lie Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB

(229) The Windbag Ritual in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 192) is derived
from the Bag of Wind in TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #27 (pg. 46).

(230) The Circle of Moonbeams Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 134)
is derived from the Moonbeam Spell in the AD&D UA (pg. 44) and TSR's

(231) The Lunarbeam Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 135) is derived
from the Moonbeam Spell in the AD&D UA (pg. 44) and TSR's DRAGON
Magazine, issue #71 (pg. 8).

(232) The Rope Homunculus Formula in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 161) is
derived from the Golem Spell in the AD&D UA (pg. 39).

(233) The golem created by the Wood Golem Ritual in MYTHUS
MAGICK (pg. 164) is derived from the Golem Spell in the AD&D UA (pg.
39).

(234) The Leather Golem Ritual in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 165) is

(235) The golem created by the Clay Golem Ritual in MYTHUS
MAGICK (pg. 166) is derived from the Clay Golem in the AD&D 1st ed. MM
(pgs. 47-48).

(236) The golem created by the Charnok's Corpse Golem Formula in
MYTHUS MAGICK (pgs. 161-162) is derived from the Flesh Golem in the AD&D
1st ed. MM (pg. 48).


(237) The golem created by the Metal Golem Ritual in MYTHUS

MAGICK (pg. 168) is derived from the Iron Golem in the AD&D 1st ed. MM
(pg. 48).

(238) The golem created by the Stone Golem Ritual in MYTHUS
MAGICK (pgs. 167-168) is derived from the Stone Golem in the AD&D 1st
ed. MM (pgs. 48-49).

(239) The concept of game characters selling jewelry to jewelers
at discounts from the actual value in MYTHUS (pgs. 40 and 113) is
derived from the similar concept in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg. 35).

(240) The Coinage System in MYTHUS (pgs. 38-40 and 112) is
derived from the Coinage System in the D&D RC (pg. 62) and the AD&D 1st
ed. PHB (pg. 35).

(241) The Hallucinaôns disorder in MYTHUS (pg. 270) is derived
from the Hallucinatory Insanity disorder in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pgs.
83-84).

(242) The Lunacy disorder in MYTHUS (pgs. 270-271) is derived
from the Lunacy disorder in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pgs. 83-84).

(243) The Paranoia disorder in MYTHUS (pgs. 270-271) is derived
from the Paranoia disorder in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pgs. 83-84).

(244) The Schizophrenia disorder in MYTHUS (pgs. 270-271) is
derived from the Hebephrenia disorder in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pgs.
83-84).

(245) The Catatonia disorder in MYTHUS (pgs. 270-271) is derived
from the Catatonia disorder in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pgs. 83-84).

(246) The Manic-Depression disorder in MYTHUS (pgs. 270-271) is
derived from the Manic-Depressive disorder in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pgs.
83-84).

(247) The Split-Personality disorder in MYTHUS (pgs. 270-271) is
derived from the Schizophrenia disorder in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pg.
83).

(248) The Mania disorder in MYTHUS (pgs. 270) is derived from
the Monomania disorder in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pgs. 83).

(249) The Delusion disorder in MYTHUS (pgs. 270) is derived from
the Delusional Insanity disorder in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pgs. 83).


(250) The Melancholia disorder in MYTHUS (pgs. 270-271) is
derived from the Demenâ Praecox disorder in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pg.
83).

(251) The Homocidal Mania disorder in MYTHUS (pgs. 270-271) is
derived from the Homocidal Mania disorder in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pgs.
83-84).

(252) The Armlet of Surrphkhat in MYTHUS (pg. 338) and MYTHUS
MAGICK (pg. 340) is derived from the Bracers of Defense in the AD&D 1st
ed. DMG (pg. 139).

(253) The Boots of Agility in MYTHUS (pg. 338) and MYTHUS MAGICK
(pg. 341) is derived from the Boots of Striding and Springing in the
AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pg. 139).

(254) The Gauntlets of Dextrous Akack in MYTHUS (pg. 338) and
MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 341) is derived from the Gauntlets of Dexterity in

(255) The Interposing Buckler in MYTHUS (pg. 338) and MYTHUS
MAGICK (pg. 341) is derived from the Shield, large, +1, +4 versus
Missiles in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pg. 165).

(256) The Wristband of Chameleon Power in MYTHUS (pg. 338) and
MYTHUS MAGICK (pgs. 340-341) is derived from the Robe of Blending in the

(257) The Clasp of Gasping in MYTHUS (pg. 338) and MYTHUS MAGICK
(pg. 344) is derived from the Necklace of Strangulaôn in the AD&D 1st
ed. DMG (pg. 151).

(258) The Chalice of Faith in MYTHUS (pg. 338) and MYTHUS MAGICK
(pg. 344) is derived from the Pearl of Wisdom in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG
(pg. 151).

(259) The Ring of Treasure Finding in MYTHUS MAGICK (pgs. 336337) is derived from the Poôn of Treasure Finding in the AD&D 1st ed.
DMG (pg. 127).

(260) The Water^ght Helmet in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 341) is
derived from the Helm of Underwater Acôn in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pg.
146).

(261) The Bag of Transmutaôn in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 342) is
derived from the Bag of Transmu^ng in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pg. 138).


(262) The Extended Sack in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 342) is derived
from the Bag of Holding in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pg. 138).

(263) The Heka Dart funcôn of the Wand of Assault in MYTHUS
MAGICK (pg. 343) is derived from the Wand of Magic Missiles in the AD&D
1st ed. DMG (pg. 136).

(264) The Wand of Assault in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 343) is derived
from the Wand of Fire in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pg. 135).

(265) The Horn of the Hunter in MYTHUS MAGICK (pgs. 345-346) is
derived from the Drums of Panic in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pg. 143).

(266) The Drums of Destrucôn in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 346) is
derived from the Horn of Blas^ng in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pg. 146).

(267) The Psychogenic K/S Area of Levitaôn in MYTHUS MAGICK
(pgs. 310 and 312) is derived from the Psionic Power of Levitaôn in
the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 111 and 113).

(268) The Psychogenic K/S Area of Psychokinesis in MYTHUS MAGICK
(pgs. 310 and 312-313) is derived from the Psionic Power of Telekinesis
in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 111 and 116).

(269) The Psychogenic K/S Area of Pyrokinesis in MYTHUS MAGICK
(pgs. 310 and 313-314) is derived from the Psionic Power of Molecular
Agitaôn in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 111 and 113).

(270) The Psychogenic K/S Area of Telempathy in MYTHUS MAGICK
(pgs. 310 and 314) is derived from the Psionic Power of Telempathic
Projecôn in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 111 and 116).

(271) Telepathic Recepôn, Telepathic Broadcast, and Telepathic
Control acôns of the Psychogenic K/S Area of Telepathy in MYTHUS
MAGICK (pgs. 310 and 314-316) is derived from the Psionic Powers of ESP,
Telepathy, and Telepathic Projecôn, respec^vely, in the AD&D 1st ed.
PHB (pgs. 111 and 116).

(272) The Psychogenic K/S Area of Teleportaôn in MYTHUS MAGICK
(pgs. 310 and 316-317) is derived from the Psionic Power of
Teleportaôn in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 111 and 116).

(273) The Psychogenic K/S Area of Cell Regeneraôn in MYTHUS
MAGICK (pgs. 318-319) is derived from the Psionic Power of Cell
Adjustment in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 111-112).


(274) The Psychogenic K/S Area of Phase Shiving in MYTHUS
MAGICK (pgs. 318 and 321) is derived from the Psionic Power of
Etherealness in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 111 and 115).

(275) The Psychogenic K/S Area of Astral Projecôn in MYTHUS

MAGICK (pgs. 324-325) is derived from the Psionic Power of Astral

(276) The Psychogenic K/S Area of Aural Reading in MYTHUS MAGICK
(pgs. 324-325) is derived from the Psionic Power of Detecôn of
Good/Evil and Detecôn of Magic in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 111-112).

(277) The Psychogenic K/S Area of Clairaudience in MYTHUS MAGICK
(pgs. 324-326) is derived from the Psionic Power of Clairaudience in the
AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 111-112).

(278) The Psychogenic K/S Area of Clairvoyance in MYTHUS MAGICK
(pgs. 324 and 326) is derived from the Psionic Power of Clairvoyance in
the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 111-112).

(279) The Psychogenic K/S Area of Precogniôn in MYTHUS MAGICK
(pgs. 324 and 326-327) is derived from the Psionic Power of Precogniôn

(280) The Psychogenic K/S Area of Psychometry in MYTHUS MAGICK
(pgs. 324 and 327-328) is derived from the Psionic Power of Object
Reading in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 111 and 113).

(281) The Clearmetal Ritual in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 218) is
derived from the Glassee Spell and the Glassteel Spell in the AD&D 1st
ed. PHB (pgs. 84 and 90, respec^vely) and the Glassee Spell in the AD&D
OA (pg. 91).

(282) The Withertouch Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 256) is
derived from the Sta of Withering in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pg. 134).

(283) The Query Deadspirit Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 252) is
derived from the Speak With the Dead Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg.
48) and the AD&D OA (pgs. 64 and 91).

(284) The Wraithform Formula in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 254) is
derived from the Wraithform Spell in the AD&D UA (pg. 69) and TSR's

(285) The Whichwitch Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 297) is derived
from the Mirror Image Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 71 and 96).


(286) The creatures called Devas in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 232) are
derived from the creatures called Devas in the AD&D MM II (pgs. 42-44);
TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #63 (pgs. 5-7); and TSR's DRAGON Magazine,
issue #67 (pgs. 65-66).

(287) The Heka Trap Spell in MYTHUS (pg. 279) and MYTHUS MAGICK
(pg. 37) is derived from the Explosive Runes Spell in the AD&D 1st ed.
PHB (pg. 73).

(288) The Blessing, Minor, Spell in MYTHUS (pg. 281) and MYTHUS
MAGICK (pg. 107) is derived from the Bless Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB

(289) The Guidance Spell in MYTHUS (pg. 281) and MYTHUS MAGICK
(pg. 108) is derived from the Augury Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg.
45) and the AD&D OA (pg. 57).

(290) The Smokecloud Formula in MYTHUS (pg. 282) and MYTHUS
MAGICK (pg. 111) is derived from the Obscurement Spell in the AD&D 1st
ed. PHB (pg. 57) and the AD&D OA (pg. 61).

(291) The Tack Table in MYTHUS (pg. 118) is derived from the
Tack and Harness List in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 36 and 123).

(292) The Provisions Table in MYTHUS (pg. 118) is derived from
the Provisions List in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 36 and 123).

(293) The Miscellaneous Table in MYTHUS (pg. 118) is derived
from the Miscellaneous Equipment & Items List in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB
(pgs. 36 and 123).

(294) The Religious Items Table in MYTHUS (pg. 120) is derived
from the Religious Items List in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 36 and 123).

(295) The Herbs Table in MYTHUS (pg. 120) is derived from the
Herbs List in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 35 and 123).

(296) The Land Vehicles and the Waterborne Vessels Table in
MYTHUS (pgs. 121-122) is derived from the Transport List in the AD&D 1st
ed. PHB (pgs. 36 and 123).

(297) The Aclis weapon in MYTHUS (pgs. 235-236 and 238-239) is
derived from the Aklys weapon in the AD&D UA (pgs. 26-28 and 77) and
TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #64 (pgs. 6-8).


(298) The Hook Fauchard MYTHUS (pgs. 236 and 242) is derived
from the Hook Fauchard in the AD&D UA (pgs. 26-27 and 77) TSR's DRAGON
Magazine, issue #64 (pgs. 6-8).

(299) The Man-Catcher in MYTHUS (pgs. 236 and 243-244) is
derived from the Man Catcher in the AD&D UA (pgs. 26-27 and 77-78); the
AD&D OA (pgs. 39, 41-42 and 45-46); the AD&D FF (pg. 58); and the AD&D
SHRINE OF THE KUO-TOA game module (pg. 14).

(300) The Sta Sling in MYTHUS (pgs. 238-239 and 245) is
derived from the Sta Sling in the AD&D UA (pgs. 26-28 and 78) and the
AD&D OA (pgs. 39, 41 and 43).

(301) The Hand Weapons Table in MYTHUS (pgs. 236-237) is derived
from the Weight and Damage by Weapon Type tables in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB
(pgs. 37-38 and 124) and the Weight and Damage by Weapon Type tables in
the AD&D UA (pgs. 26-27).

(302) The "Missile Weapon, A" table and the "Missile Weapon, B"
table in MYTHUS (pgs. 238-239) are derived from the Hurled Weapons and
Missiles table in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg. 124) and the Hurled Weapon
and Missile Types table in the AD&D UA (pg. 28).

(303) The concept in MYTHUS (pg. 270) of using a table of heroic
persona mental illnesses divided into rela^vely mild and severe forms,
as found in "Mental Aberraôns" table, is derived from a similar AD&D
game concept, as found in the "Types of Insanity" table in the AD&D 1st
ed. DMG (pg. 83).

(304) The concept in MYTHUS (pg. 270) of having a player roleplay a heroic persona that has secretly been aicted with insanity,
thus having the other players trying to gure out what happened to that
game character, is derived from a similar concept in the AD&D 1st ed.
DMG (pg. 78).

(305) The Return of Sanctum Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 115) is
derived from the Word of Recall Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pg. 158).

derived from the Iron Flask of Tuerny the Merciless in the AD&D 1st ed.
DMG (pg. 158).

from the Fire Shuriken Spell in the AD&D OA (pg. 79).


END OF PART 2 of 3
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 23:58:12 -0800



derived from the Magic Stone Spell in the AD&D UA (pg. 33) and TSR's
DRAGON Magazine, issue #58 (pgs. 7 and 73).

(309) The Hat of Disguise in MYTHUS (pg. 338) and in MYTHUS
MAGICK (pg. 344) is derived from the Hat of Disguise in the AD&D UA
(pgs. 88 and 100) and the AD&D DUNGEONLAND game module (pgs. 19-20 and
30).

derived from the Withering Palm Spell in the AD&D OA (pg. 94).

(pg. 108) is derived from the Omen Spell in the AD&D OA (pgs. 58-59).

from the Ice Knife Spell in the AD&D OA (pg. 79).

(313) The Gloves of Quickness in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 344) is
derived from the Gauntlets of Dexterity in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pg.
145).

(314) The concept in MYTHUS MAGICK (pgs. 315-316) in which a
game character's id, ego and superego are subject to mental akack and
manipulaôn is derived from a similar concept in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB
(pg. 110).

(pgs. 310 and 312) is derived from the Levitate Spell in the AD&D 1st

(pgs. 324 and 326-327) is derived from the Omen Spell in the AD&D OA
(pgs. 58-59) and the Fate Spell in the AD&D OA (pg. 65).

(317) The Psychogenic K/S Area of Retrocogniôn in MYTHUS
Sensi^vity to Psychic Impressions in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 111
and 114).

(318) The Disjuncôn Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 34) is derived
from the Mordenkainen's Disjuncôn Spell in the AD&D UA (pg. 65).

(319) The Magick Lock Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 35) is derived
from the Hold Portal Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg. 66) and the AD&D
OA (pg. 76).


(320) The Shuast Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 35) is derived
from the Hold Portal Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg. 66) and the AD&D
OA (pg. 76).

(321) The Reecôns Ritual in MYTHUS (pg. 278) and MYTHUS
MAGICK (pg. 35) is derived from the Magic Font Spell in the AD&D UA (pg.
39); The Magic Mirror Spell in the AD&D UA (pgs. 57 and 70); and the
Scry Spell in the AD&D OA (pg. 84).

(322) The Summon Mascot Ritual in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 35) is
derived from the Animal Friendship Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg.
54).

(323) The Vranx's Annoying Itch Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 36)
is derived from the Scratch Cantrip in the AD&D UA (pg. 49).

(324) The Ritual of the Heart Ritual in MYTHUS (pg. 279) and
MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 38) is derived from the Animal Friendship Spell in
the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg. 54).

(325) The Mul^lingual Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 40) is
derived from the Tongues Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 49 and 75)
and the AD&D OA (pgs. 67 and 84).

(326) The Avoid Heka Akack Ritual in MYTHUS (pg. 279) and
MYTHUS MAGICK book (pg. 39) is derived from the concept of saving throws
in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pgs. 79-81).

(327) The Dispel Invisibility Cantrip in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 39)
is derived from the Dust of Appearance in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pgs. 123
and 143).

(328) The Resist Temperatures Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 40) is
derived from the Endure Cold/Endure Heat Spell in the AD&D UA (pg. 33)

(329) The Pythagoras' Extra-Dimensional Door Spell in MYTHUS
MAGICK (pg. 45) is derived from the Dimension Door Spell in the AD&D 1st

(330) The Scrambletongue Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 46) is
derived from the reversed form of the Tongues Spell in the AD&D 1st ed.
PHB (pgs. 49 and 75) and the AD&D OA (pgs. 67 and 84).

(331) The Evil Reecôns Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 56) is
derived from the Magic Font Spell in the AD&D UA (pg. 39); the Magic
Mirror


Spell in the AD&D UA (pgs. 57 and 70); and the Scry Spell in the AD&D OA
(pg. 84).

(332) The Windblast Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 64) is derived
from the Control Winds Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 60-61).

(333) The Shockbolt Cantrip in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 68) is derived
from the Lightning Bolt Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg. 74).

(334) The Disguise Formula in MYTHUS MAGICK (pgs. 73-74) is
derived from the Alter Self Spell in the AD&D UA (pg. 67) and the
Disguise Spell in the AD&D OA (pg. 82).

(335) The Shadowscript Cantrip in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 74) is
derived from the Secret Page Spell in the AD&D UA (pg. 56).

(336) The Phantasms Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 77) is derived
from the Phantasmal Force Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 75 and 95)
and the Improved Phantasmal Force Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg.
95).

(337) The Mass Invisibility Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (pgs. 81-82)
is derived from the Invisibility, 10' Radius Spell in the AD&D 1st ed.
PHB (pgs. 74 and 96).

(338) The Protecôn from Evil Cloak in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 361)
is derived from the Invisibility to Enemies Spell in the AD&D OA (pg.
70).

(339) The Animal Service Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 84) is
derived from the Animal Companion Spell in the AD&D OA (pgs. 57 and 78);
the Animal Friendship Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg. 54); and the
Messenger Spell in the AD&D UA (pg. 35) and the AD&D OA (pg. 61).

(340) The Phaereedoor Formula in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 93) is
derived from the Plane Shiv Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg. 50) and

(341) The Rejuvenate Ritual in MYTHUS MAGICK (pgs. 93-94) is
derived from the Regenerate Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg. 53) and
the Instant Regeneraôn Spell in the AD&D OA (pgs. 96-97).

(342) The Rejuvenate Ritual in MYTHUS MAGICK (pgs. 93-94) is
derived from the Poôn of Longevity in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pgs. 121
and 126) and the Elixir of Youth in the AD&D OA (pgs. 84 and 90).

(343) The Riotgrow Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 94) is derived
from the Quickgrowth Spell in the AD&D OA (pg. 70).


(344) The Stasis Formula in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 104) is derived

from the Temporal Stasis Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg. 93).

(345) The Ques^ng Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 115) is derived
from the Quest Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg. 50) and the Oath Spell
in the AD&D OA (pgs. 63-64).

(346) The Miracle Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 116) is derived
from the Limited Wish Spell in the 1st ed. PHB (pg. 88) and the AD&D OA
(pg. 93).

(347) The Dismiss Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 260) is derived
from the Abjure Spell in the AD&D UA (pg. 37) and the AD&D OA (pg. 64)
and the Dismissal Spell in the AD&D OA (pg. 88).

(348) The Falseview Diky Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 274) is
derived from the Phantasmal Force Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 75
and 95) and the AD&D OA (pg. 80); the Improved Phantasmal Force Spell in
the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg. 95) and the AD&D OA (pg. 83); and the Spectral
Force Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg. 97) and the AD&D OA (pgs. 8687).

(349) The Psychogenic K/S Area of Psychical Hypno^sm in MYTHUS
MAGICK (pgs. 310 and 312) is derived from the Psionic Power of Hypnosis
in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 111-113).

MAGICK (pgs. 310 and 312) is derived from the Charm Person or Mammal
Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 55-56); the Charm Person Spell in
the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg. 65); the Hypno^sm Spell in the AD&D 1st ed.
PHB (pg. 95) and the AD&D OA (pg. 76); the Suggesôn Spell in the AD&D
1st ed. PHB (pgs. 75 and 97) and the AD&D OA (pg. 84); and the Quell
Spell in the AD&D OA (pg. 86).

MAGICK (pgs. 310 and 312) is derived from the Crystal Hypnosis Ball in
the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pg. 142)

(pgs. 310 and 312-313) is derived from the Telekinesis Spell in the AD&D
1st ed. PHB (pg. 82) and the AD&D OA (pg. 89).

(pgs. 310 and 312-313) is derived from the Ring of Telekinesis in the
AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pgs. 122 and 131).


(354) The Psychogenic K/S Area of Parakinesis in MYTHUS MAGICK
(pgs. 310 and 312) is derived from the Psionic Power of Telekinesis in

(pgs. 310 and 312) is derived from the Telekinesis Spell in the AD&D
1st ed. PHB (pg. 82) and the AD&D OA (pg. 89).

(pgs. 310 and 312-313) is derived from the Ring of Telekinesis in the
AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pgs. 122 and 131).

(357) The Psychogenic K/S Area of Cryogenesis in MYTHUS MAGICK
(pgs. 310-311) is derived from the Chill Metal Spell (the reversed form
of the Heat Metal Spell) in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg. 56).

(pgs. 310-311) is derived from the Psionic Power of Molecular Agitaôn

(pgs. 310-311) is derived from the "ray of cold", a form of the
O^luke's Freezing Sphere Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg. 85).

(360) The Psychogenic K/S Area of Empathy in MYTHUS MAGICK (pgs.
310-312) is derived from the Psionic Power of Empathy in the AD&D 1st
ed. PHB (pgs. 111-112).

(361) The Psychogenic K/S Area of Empathy in MYTHUS MAGICK (pgs.
310-312) is derived from the Know Mo^vaôn Spell in the AD&D OA (pg.
61).

(362) The Telepathic Recepôn acôn of the Psychogenic K/S
Area of Telepathy in MYTHUS MAGICK (pgs. 310 and 314-315) is derived
from the ESP Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg. 70) and the AD&D OA
(pg. 78).

from the Poôn of ESP in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pgs. 121 and 125).

from the Medallion of ESP in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pgs. 123 and 150).


(365) The Telepathic Broadcast and Telepathic Control acôns of
the Psychogenic K/S Area of Telepathy in MYTHUS MAGICK (pgs. 310 and
314-315) are derived from the Magic Jar Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB
(pg. 81).

(366) The Telepathic Broadcast and Telepathic Control acôns of

the Psychogenic K/S Area of Telepathy in MYTHUS MAGICK (pgs. 310 and
314-315) are derived from the Helm of Telepathy in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG
(pg. 146).

(367) The concept that the vic^m of a Psychogenic Combat SubArea akack can employ Mental armor in order to defend against the
akack in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 317) is derived from the similar concept in
AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 110-111) and the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pgs. 76-77) in
which the vic^m of a Psionic Akack Mode may employ a Psionic Defense
in order to defend against the akack.

(368) The concept in MYTHUS MAGICK (pgs. 317-318) by which the
vic^m of a Psychogenic Combat Sub-Area akack can employ certain
magical Cas^ngs to defend against the akack is derived from the
similar concept in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pg. 78) by which the vic^m of
a Psionic Blast Akack Mode may employ a magical spell to defend against
the akack.


TSR's inves^gaôn into the subject maker idenêd in this
interrogatory in con^nuing and not completed. TSR reserves the right
to further amend or supplement its answer as its inves^gaôn con^nues
and/or further informaôn becomes available.

TSR, INC.

By: __Signature of Mark K. Suri__
One of Its Akorneys

Ronald L. Wanke
Stanley A. Schliker
Mark K. Suri
JENNIFER & BLOCK
One IBM Plaza
Chicago, IL 60611
(312) 222-9350

Nile J. Williamson
1120 Savings Center Tower
Peoria, Illinois 61602
(309) 676-0625

Dated: February 26, 1993

PAC21203.AAS

======Page 31 Ends=====================================================

END OF PART 3 of 3
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 23:49:24 -0800


(101) The Eyebite class of Cas^ngs in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 27)
is derived from the Eyebite Spell in the AD&D UA (pages 60-61).



(109) The Escape Hatch Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 45) is
derived from the Dimension Door Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 76)

(110) The Scrambletongue Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 46) is
derived from the reversed form of the Comprehend Languages Spell in the

(114) The Circe's Transformaôn Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (page
56) is derived from the Polymorph Other Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB

(116) The Icewall Cantrip in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 63) is derived
from the Wall of Ice Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pages 78-79).

(118) The Summon Elementary Cantrip in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 63)
is derived from the Conjure Elemental Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB

(121) The Summon Elemental Aid Cantrip in MYTHUS MAGICK (pages
65-66) is derived from the Conjure Elemental Spell in the AD&D 1st ed.


(124) The Pass Through Stone Spell in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 69) is
derived from the Passwall Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 81) and

(126) The Illusory Image Cantrip in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 73) is
derived from the Phantasmal Force Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page

(129) The Shadowscript Cantrip in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 74) is
derived from the Illusionary Script Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page



(page 88).





52, 63 and 83).






AD&D OA (page 57).












PHB (page 49).



PHB (page 43).

(page 97).

OA (page 60).



AD&D OA (page 92).

(page 57).









OA (page 63).





(pg. 75).





83).


(pg. 92).





AD&D OA (pg. 76).

AD&D OA (pg. 76).




AD&D OA (pg. 76).








39).


(pgs. 47-48).



(pg. 48).

ed. MM (pgs. 48-49).



ed. PHB (pg. 35).

83-84).



83-84).


83-84).

83).




83).

83-84).

ed. DMG (pg. 139).





ed. DMG (pg. 151).

(pg. 151).

DMG (pg. 127).

146).













PHB (pgs. 111 and 116).












OA (pg. 91).






END OF PART 2 of 3
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 23:35:44 -0800



(page 88).





52, 63 and 83).






AD&D OA (page 57).












PHB (page 49).



PHB (page 43).


(page 97).

OA (page 60).



AD&D OA (page 92).

(page 57).










OA (page 63).





(pg. 75).




83).


(pg. 92).





AD&D OA (pg. 76).

AD&D OA (pg. 76).




AD&D OA (pg. 76).









39).


(pgs. 47-48).



(pg. 48).

ed. MM (pgs. 48-49).


ed. PHB (pg. 35).

83-84).



83-84).


83-84).

83).




83).

83-84).

ed. DMG (pg. 139).






ed. DMG (pg. 151).

(pg. 151).

DMG (pg. 127).

146).












PHB (pgs. 111 and 116).











OA (pg. 91).






(286) The creatures called Devas in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 232) are
derived from the creatures called Devas in the AD&D MM II (pgs. 42-44);
TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #63 (pgs. 5-7); and TSR's DRAGON Magazine,
issue #67 (pgs. 65-66).

(287) The Heka Trap Spell in MYTHUS (pg. 279) and MYTHUS MAGICK
(pg. 37) is derived from the Explosive Runes Spell in the AD&D 1st ed.
PHB (pg. 73).

(288) The Blessing, Minor, Spell in MYTHUS (pg. 281) and MYTHUS
MAGICK (pg. 107) is derived from the Bless Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB

(pg. 108) is derived from the Augury Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg.
45) and the AD&D OA (pg. 57).

(290) The Smokecloud Formula in MYTHUS (pg. 282) and MYTHUS
MAGICK (pg. 111) is derived from the Obscurement Spell in the AD&D 1st

(291) The Tack Table in MYTHUS (pg. 118) is derived from the
Tack and Harness List in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 36 and 123).

(292) The Provisions Table in MYTHUS (pg. 118) is derived from

the Provisions List in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 36 and 123).

(293) The Miscellaneous Table in MYTHUS (pg. 118) is derived
from the Miscellaneous Equipment & Items List in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB
(pgs. 36 and 123).

(294) The Religious Items Table in MYTHUS (pg. 120) is derived
from the Religious Items List in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 36 and 123).

(295) The Herbs Table in MYTHUS (pg. 120) is derived from the
Herbs List in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pgs. 35 and 123).

(296) The Land Vehicles and the Waterborne Vessels Table in
MYTHUS (pgs. 121-122) is derived from the Transport List in the AD&D 1st
ed. PHB (pgs. 36 and 123).

(297) The Aclis weapon in MYTHUS (pgs. 235-236 and 238-239) is
derived from the Aklys weapon in the AD&D UA (pgs. 26-28 and 77) and
TSR's DRAGON Magazine, issue #64 (pgs. 6-8).


(298) The Hook Fauchard MYTHUS (pgs. 236 and 242) is derived
from the Hook Fauchard in the AD&D UA (pgs. 26-27 and 77) TSR's DRAGON
Magazine, issue #64 (pgs. 6-8).

(299) The Man-Catcher in MYTHUS (pgs. 236 and 243-244) is
derived from the Man Catcher in the AD&D UA (pgs. 26-27 and 77-78); the
AD&D OA (pgs. 39, 41-42 and 45-46); the AD&D FF (pg. 58); and the AD&D
SHRINE OF THE KUO-TOA game module (pg. 14).

(300) The Sta Sling in MYTHUS (pgs. 238-239 and 245) is
derived from the Sta Sling in the AD&D UA (pgs. 26-28 and 78) and the
AD&D OA (pgs. 39, 41 and 43).

(301) The Hand Weapons Table in MYTHUS (pgs. 236-237) is derived
from the Weight and Damage by Weapon Type tables in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB
(pgs. 37-38 and 124) and the Weight and Damage by Weapon Type tables in
the AD&D UA (pgs. 26-27).

(302) The "Missile Weapon, A" table and the "Missile Weapon, B"
table in MYTHUS (pgs. 238-239) are derived from the Hurled Weapons and
Missiles table in the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (pg. 124) and the Hurled Weapon
and Missile Types table in the AD&D UA (pg. 28).

(303) The concept in MYTHUS (pg. 270) of using a table of heroic
persona mental illnesses divided into rela^vely mild and severe forms,
as found in "Mental Aberraôns" table, is derived from a similar AD&D
game concept, as found in the "Types of Insanity" table in the AD&D 1st
ed. DMG (pg. 83).

(304) The concept in MYTHUS (pg. 270) of having a player roleplay a heroic persona that has secretly been aicted with insanity,
thus having the other players trying to gure out what happened to that
game character, is derived from a similar concept in the AD&D 1st ed.
DMG (pg. 78).

(305) The Return of Sanctum Charm in MYTHUS MAGICK (pg. 115) is
derived from the Word of Recall Spell in the AD&D 1st ed. DMG (pg. 158).

derived from the Iron Flask of Tuerny the Merciless in the AD&D 1st ed.
DMG (pg. 158).

from the Fire Shuriken Spell in the AD&D OA (pg. 79).


END OF PART 2 of 3
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 02:11:14 -0600
Reply-To: phalen@concentric.net
From: Wayne Westphalen <phalen@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Truth in business - Part 1 of 3

Love and Kisses wrote:
>
> What follows is my answer to the treatment which TSR has brought
> to it's customers and other gaming resources in both the real
> world and the Internet. Whether, Rob Repp or Sean Reynolds, the
> spokesman "online" for TSR has consistently stated the company
> is not interested in controlling the market. This is a lie.
> Their acôns represent a bully approach to business and the
> intelligence of consumers, both current and past. If you, the
> reader, truly believe they have not gone overboard on the virtual
> monopoly they keep through threats and power then read this copy
> of the second supplemental answer to GDW's rst set of inter> roga^ves to the plain^ (TSR).
>
> Before anyone tries to deny the document, stop. I don't care
> whether you believe this or if you want vericaôn of it's
> authen^city. It is real and it represents TSR's irresponsible
> use of the American court system in sustaining their monopoly.
>
> Read this carefully. Understand the broad ramicaôns of this
> document if a court had actually granted them a win instead of
> them sekling out of court. All it would take is one American
> Federal Court to throw the en^re gaming and book publishing
> industry into a monopoly with these aitudes. TSR fully claims
> ownership of ALL properês of magic concept and mental/psionic
> concept. This aects ALL INDUSTRIES which use classic fantasy
> and science côn genres.
>
> Some formaing will be dierent at the original was in Arial
> font and this needs to be text for the widest distribuôn.
> -------------------------------------------------------------->

BIG SNIP!!

> IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
> FOR THE CENTRAL DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS, PEORIA DIVISION
>
> (100) The Ritual of the Heart Ritual in MYTHUS (page 279) and
> MYTHUS MAGICK (page 38) is derived from the Find Familiar Spell in the
> AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 66).
>
> ======Page 11 Ends/Page 12 Starts======================================
>
> END OF PART 1 of 3

Oh my lord are you kidding me? You know what? I think that if everyone
knew this, they would be nearly as sickened by it as I am. I think we
need to re-invent the art of T$R bashing. I mean, if the pile of crap
that I just read is true, then no game company or person wishing to
write games should be able to sleep at night. Who knows when T$R is
going to creep up on you in the middle of the night and ruin your life.
Why not just le a claim against GOD for deriving everything from the
DMG! I am having a hard ^me containing my rage at this point. If
there is anything I can do to convince the gamers that I know (quite a
number) to stop buying Big Brother's products I'm damn well going to do
it.

You can't honestly tell me that any sane person could keep buying T$R's
products aver takin' a gander at that ar^cle. It looks like T$R's
goken themselves a God complex....and we need to start spreading the
gospel of the sacred "reality check" to our friends and neighbors.

Please, Sean, if you're s^ll on this list...tell me that this was just
a bit of côn that some joker posted. Give us something that will
akribute some shred of human decency to your employers...I'm beggin'
ya.

Oh, and I'd love to know who posted that think and, if it's true, give
them a huge "THANK YOU" for showing me the light.

Wayne Westphalen
phalen@concentric.net
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 13:59:43 -0500

> (32) The method used in MYTHUS (page 9) of resolving game acôn
>by genera^ng random numbers on a linear probability scale is derived
>from a similar method used in the AD&D game system in the AD&D 1st ed.
>DMG (pages 9-10).
>
> (33) The method used in MYTHUS (pages 9 and 236-238) of
>determining game character damage using a weighted probability scale is
>derived from a similar method in the AD&D game system in the AD&D 1st
>ed. DMG (pages 9-10); the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page 37); and the AD&D UA
>(page 26).

Geez, I guess Monopoly and every other board game is derived from AD&D too...
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 14:32:00 -0600
Subject: More about Truth in Business

Man, I can't believe everyone isn't freaking out about the 3-part "Truth
in Business" extravaganza provided to us by an unkown bringer of X-Mas
cheer. Where is everyone? Are you all taking a nap?

It's Christmas ^me...so let's get pissed.

Wayne
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 15:51:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Truth in Business

My, my...

What an unexpected blast from the past.

I had to read all of these documents in their original form, a few years ago.

Loren Wiseman
GDW Emeritus
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 14:00:32 -0800
From: James Edwards <jamese@IDACOM.HP.COM>
Organizaôn: Idacom Hewlek-Packard

>
> world and the Internet.
>>>SNIP <<<<<

> (50) The "Heka Recovery Table" in MYTHUS (page 22) and the "K/S
> Area Heka Regeneraôn" table in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 14) are derived
> from the "Recovery of Psionic Strength Points" table in the AD&D 1st
> ed. PHB (page 117).
>
> (50) TSR withdraws this paragraph.
>

Wow TSR withdrew these paragraphs. What could they have said? What
could have been so outrageous that TSR would voluntarily with draw the
statement? If anyone knows please post it.

>
>>>(SNIP lots of crap)<<<<
>

-James
Edwards
jamese@idacom.hp.com

|
|\ This users opinions are his own
8*<%%%%%%%%%|+>-===================================================---- |/
|

This sig is derived from the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page XXX).
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 15:59:09 -0600

Subject: Re: More about Truth in Business
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=Carlson%l=CARLSON/NACORPINTE/000B6817@spyder.carlson.com> from
"Westphalen, Wayne" at Dec 11,
96 02:32:00 pm

> Man, I can't believe everyone isn't freaking out about the 3-part "Truth
> in Business" extravaganza provided to us by an unkown bringer of X-Mas
> cheer. Where is everyone? Are you all taking a nap?
>
> It's Christmas ^me...so let's get pissed.

Bri^sh or American meaning of the word? Both are appropriate for this
situaôn.

I suppose by now most everyone agrees that they are Satan's minions on
Earth and this is just one more piece of evidence that supports it.

I par^cuarly liked the line (loosely quoted) "Mythus Magick's Devas
are derived from the Deva from AD&D." Which of course is bunk, the
Deva is a mythological creature from legend, myth or religion, I can't
remember exactly which (but does it maker?). There were a few of
those statements. Aren't AD&D Halings deriva^ve of Tolkien's
Hobbits? They even have the same divisions that Hobbits have.

Clearly they decided things were deriva^ve because they felt that
the author of Mythus had used AD&D as a model for his system. I
personally don't care what the truth of that statement is.

I'm going to go home and get pissed.

Dan.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 16:58:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Truth <Choke> <cough><gag>

>
> Before anyone tries to deny the document, stop. I don't care
> whether you believe this or if you want vericaôn of it's
> authen^city. It is real and it represents TSR's irresponsible
> use of the American court system in sustaining their monopoly.

Un^l I had a chance to see this document, I believed that TSR's just
didn't want Gary Gygax to publish anything with his name on it. Now,
there is no doubt in my mind that TSR doesn't want Gary Gygax to produce
anything with his name on it. This would threaten TSR's market share.
Monopoly may be right; perhaps, a leker to the U.S. Akorney General's
Oce might be in order.

> Read this carefully. Understand the broad ramicaôns of this
> document if a court had actually granted them a win instead of

This is an assumpôn that TSR would have won the court case. With what
I have read in this document, the win was not as likely as this
statement implies. Further, I believe that GDW would have won the court
case over MYTHUS, but GDW's poor nancial situaôn kept them out of
the court. I will venture to say that their nancial situaôn was so
poor even if they would had won the court case, GDW would have been
nancial nished. As a retrospect, GDW should have gone to court.
Maybe, they would have won and then sued TSR for court cost and lost
earnings.

> them sekling out of court. All it would take is one American
> Federal Court to throw the en^re gaming and book publishing
> industry into a monopoly with these aitudes. TSR fully claims
> ownership of ALL properês of magic concept and mental/psionic
> concept. This aects ALL INDUSTRIES which use classic fantasy
> and science côn genres.

I am a computer science student at the local university, and copyright
and other ethical issue come up frequently. TSR could not enforce there
claims to "magic concept and mental/psionic concepts." For example, a
few years back when Apple Co. sued Microsov for copyright infrignments.
Microsov came out with Windows 3.0 which was rst true Graphical User
Interface(GUI) for the IBM PC and clones. However, Apple Co. has always
had the GUI on there Macintosh line. To the point, Apple lost the court
case because the judge stated that the programming(source code) was 75%
or more dierent than the Apple's GUI and one could not copyright the
"feel"(the use of a GUI) of an item or intelligent work.

In the complaint, TSR is crying about how much stu is derived from
AD&D to make MYTHUS. I wonder how much stu was derived from other
sources and games(chainmail) to make AD&D? Apple was the rst company
to make a cheap desktop computer for the average user then IBM made the
PC averwards. Would anyone like to guess what would happen to Apple if
they sued IBM for deriving the PC from the Apple computer?

As far as MYTHUS, the game has a "feel" of a fantasy medieval world
which TSR can not copyright. And, as long as 75% or more of the game
mechanics are dierent, no copyright has been infrigned upon.
Consequently, if TSR really wanted to push the idea that they control
all game ideas which use magic\mental\linear-dice concepts past,
present, and future, they would be opening a can of snakes upon
themselves. All the casinos around the world and game companies that
came before TSR and AD&D might have something to say about TSR using
dice in there RPG. Furthermore, all the authors that wrote about the
use, applicaôn, and concepts of magic might also have a word with TSR.
Science has been studying ESP and other mind powers longer than TSR's
existance. Perhaps, there are some wiccas, witches or a group of vodoo
pracôneers might even have a legal copyright on this imaginary stu.

In short, TSR can only have copyrights on specic stories, art, game
mechanics, characters, and trade marks that they design. TSR can not
copyright a concept. It would be like copyrigh^ng algebraic concepts.
It can not be done.
------>>>>SNIP<<<<----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Mike Wikek |"Democracy isn't just the best form of governUSF engineering student |ment; It's the only one even remotely worth a
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 16:18:03 -0600

>Man, I can't believe everyone isn't freaking out about the 3-part "Truth
>in Business" extravaganza provided to us by an unkown bringer of X-Mas
>cheer. Where is everyone? Are you all taking a nap?
>
>It's Christmas ^me...so let's get pissed.
>
>Wayne
>
Many of us heard it a long ^me ago (3 years) and around Thanksgiving that ^me.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 16:46:27 +0000
Reply-To: Mike Phillips <mike@lawlib.wm.edu>
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=Carlson%l=CARLSON/NACORPINTE/000B6817@spyder.carlson.com>

On Wed, 11 Dec 1996, Westphalen, Wayne wrote:


I'm here, and in a crotchety mood (but less so if a laparoscopy weren't so
rela^vely painless -- let's hear a cheer for modern medicine). But...


I don't see the point to this. Honest.

We have already been over the case, it's implicaôns, the fact that A
Certain Company has apparently done everything they could to smear A
Certain Author's reputaôn.

It's *OVER*.

Yes, it's interes^ng (if you like your blood boiling) to read the
material (again). Shoot, it's even an interes^ng case study.

But it sure doesn't do much good for the support of Mythus, or the
con^nued use of it by various members of this list, to keep raking the
same coals, over and over, and to keep releasing lots of hot air, anger,
and venom. In fact, the past has shown it drives list members away
(temporarily and permanently).

<sigh>

*I'm* happy that Mythus s^ll has a few dedicated players, and that more
and more people are connec^ng via the Internet. That will make it easier
to keep a small community alive, with a feeling that we're not alone.

I'm also *very* happy that I met another Mythus player who is literally
just around the corner, and it looks like we'll get a game going (set on
the Avillonian Isles, but stay tuned to see just how far aeld it
ranges!)

Anyone up for a Daily Deity dealing with the Kell^c Pantheon in some
detail?

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 16:45:00 -0600

X-To: James Edwards <jamese@IDACOM.HP.COM>

Damn funny James. I'm proud of ya.

I'm s^ll laughin'

Wayne "T$R can eat me" Westphalen

---------From: James Edwards
Date: Wednesday, December 11, 1996 4:00PM

>
> world and the Internet.
>>>SNIP <<<<<

> (50) The "Heka Recovery Table" in MYTHUS (page 22) and the "K/S
> Area Heka Regeneraôn" table in MYTHUS MAGICK (page 14) are derived
> from the "Recovery of Psionic Strength Points" table in the AD&D 1st
> ed. PHB (page 117).
>
>

Wow TSR withdrew these paragraphs. What could they have said? What
could have been so outrageous that TSR would voluntarily with draw the
statement? If anyone knows please post it.

>
>>>(SNIP lots of crap)<<<<
>

-James
Edwards
jamese@idacom.hp.com

|
|\ This users opinions are his own
8*<%%%%%%%%%|+>-===================================================----
|/
|

This sig is derived from the AD&D 1st ed. PHB (page XXX).
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 17:05:00 -0600
X-To: Dan Williamson <dtw@IDM.COM>

Both the Bri^sh and the American version of the word. The whole lot of
it is a load of bullocks.

Nothing but a back of bastards they are.

You know that "Devas" thing ^pies the whole mentality...."Gygax
ripped us o but WE didn't rip anyone o...nope not one ^me." How
ukerly stupid.

I'm at work and I'm pissed....and I've ben sleeping all day...as a
maker of fact...I just woke up half way through typing this leker.

Wayne Westphalen

---------From: Dan Williamson

>

Bri^sh or American meaning of the word? Both are appropriate for this
situaôn.

I suppose by now most everyone agrees that they are Satan's minions on
Earth and this is just one more piece of evidence that supports it.

I par^cuarly liked the line (loosely quoted) "Mythus Magick's Devas
are derived from the Deva from AD&D." Which of course is bunk, the
Deva is a mythological creature from legend, myth or religion, I can't
remember exactly which (but does it maker?). There were a few of

those statements. Aren't AD&D Halings deriva^ve of Tolkien's
Hobbits? They even have the same divisions that Hobbits have.

Clearly they decided things were deriva^ve because they felt that
the author of Mythus had used AD&D as a model for his system. I
personally don't care what the truth of that statement is.

I'm going to go home and get pissed.

Dan.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 17:25:24 -0500

At 02:21 PM 11/29/96 -0800, you wrote:
>
>That'l be cool. But the cool parts of the database are the forms, in which
the only way I know you can view and use them is usicng Access.
>Plus the forms run o queries that do minor calculaôns and join tables
so that the forms look good (Especially when you are working on the
>character's armor/weapon/equipment

Visual Basic uses forms to manipulate the database. I think it can do
everything that access does thru SQLs. The only dierence is that with VB
you can actually make an executable program that will run in WIN 95. It can
print reports like a character sheet and other cool stu.If you want to do
this you need to send me some technical info about the database. Like what
querries your using where and for what.
>
>

\\| J.R. Carter
\\ / / \ \ \ \ USA
--------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 17:43:55 -0600

You realize that this list is most likely (c) TSR, Inc., and its unapproved
pos^ng on this listserve is a violate of that law. Furthermore, the

unaurthorized usage of all the names of TSR's books, rst ediôn and
second, Dragon magazine, and abbreviaôns thereof, is further copyright
infringement.

Prepare for procescuôn.

Tom

Tom's usless trivia:

The longest word in the English language, according to the Oxford English
Dicônary, is pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis.

The only other word with the same amount of lekers is
pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconioses, its plural.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 17:43:00 -0600
X-To: Robert Wright <rwright@UMR.EDU>

I'm sorry, I know many of you have heard it all before....and I'm sorry
for going o about it...but it just makes a guy so damn mad. And the
worst part about it is....YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. It's all over
and done with now. I guess we can keep the spirit alive, and I'm
certain that most of us will do so...but it just makes you want to slap
someone.

The thing that I nd the most ironic is that I was just looking at the
94 log les last night and thinking about what a horror-show it must
have been to have to go through that whole thing...For Gygax and
everyone at Omega Helios and GDW....when the 3-part e-mail arrived. So,
I read it and couldn't believe my eyes...I just can't believe that a
game company that I (and I'm sure Role-Players everywhere) grew up with
would do something so sickening. For all the morals they perport to
have and the "wholesome gaming experience" they claim to provide...oh I
don't know....I'll quit ran^ng about it....

Wayne Westphalen

---------From: Robert Wright

>Man, I can't believe everyone isn't freaking out about the 3-part "Truth
>in Business" extravaganza provided to us by an unkown bringer of X-Mas
>cheer. Where is everyone? Are you all taking a nap?
>
>It's Christmas ^me...so let's get pissed.
>
>Wayne
>
Many of us heard it a long ^me ago (3 years) and around Thanksgiving
that ^me.
RolePlayer/SpaceFana^c/NeophyteFan/ComputerEnthusiast/Squirrel/AllAround
Weirdo
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 17:43:00 -0600
X-To: Mike Phillips <mike@LAWLIB.WM.EDU>

Yes, I know Mike...I'm sorry. I don't want to start that up again...I
don't know what I was thinking.

So, again, I'm sorry for freaking out about it. Please forgive.

Wayne

---------From: Mike Phillips
Date: Wednesday, December 11, 1996 10:46AM

On Wed, 11 Dec 1996, Westphalen, Wayne wrote:


I'm here, and in a crotchety mood (but less so if a laparoscopy weren't
so
rela^vely painless -- let's hear a cheer for modern medicine). But...


I don't see the point to this. Honest.

We have already been over the case, it's implicaôns, the fact that A
Certain Company has apparently done everything they could to smear A
Certain Author's reputaôn.

It's *OVER*.

Yes, it's interes^ng (if you like your blood boiling) to read the
material (again). Shoot, it's even an interes^ng case study.

But it sure doesn't do much good for the support of Mythus, or the
con^nued use of it by various members of this list, to keep raking the
same coals, over and over, and to keep releasing lots of hot air, anger,
and venom. In fact, the past has shown it drives list members away
(temporarily and permanently).

<sigh>

*I'm* happy that Mythus s^ll has a few dedicated players, and that more
and more people are connec^ng via the Internet. That will make it
easier
to keep a small community alive, with a feeling that we're not alone.

I'm also *very* happy that I met another Mythus player who is literally
just around the corner, and it looks like we'll get a game going (set on
the Avillonian Isles, but stay tuned to see just how far aeld it
ranges!)

Anyone up for a Daily Deity dealing with the Kell^c Pantheon in some
detail?

-- __+__
Mike Phillips, mike@lawlib.wm.edu | |#|#| | LINUX SAGA
vol 2 |
Mythus: hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/mythus/ | |L|L| | Penguins
of |
Home page: hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/ | |L|L| | Des^ny
|
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 19:42:54 -0500

Someone asked what could have been so outlandish in the paragraphs that were
retracted that TSR in fact decided to retract them.

For your entertainment I present.......

(xx) The Author's name in Mythus (cover), and Mythus Magic (cover),
is derived from the Author's name in AD&D 1st ed. PHB/DMG/etc. (cover).

***************************

Watch out Gary, they may try to copyright your name... ooops, damn.
shouldn't give 'em ideas.

Later..
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:17:59 +1300
Subject: Kell^c Pantheon (and Those Suing Ratbags)


>Anyone up for a Daily Deity dealing with the Kell^c Pantheon in some
>detail?

Yes, yes, yes! We were beginning to think that deiês and demigods weren't
conding in you anymore... :-)

A wisely anonymous person wrote:

>TSR, INC., )
> Plain^, ) No. 92-1230 ...

As for that legal stu, it is nice (if that's the right word?) to have the
rumours conrmed, and to see the lengths to which TSR went. Because it was
sub judice at the ^me, the stu that was posted to this list then only
hinted at it, or menôned a small fracôn of it.

The proper place for it is in the FAQ, in the sedcôn detailing the
history of Mythus -- is anyone working on one that you can get via the
listserv, say?

Malcolm

-----Since it's Christmas and all, I won't spread the surely false rumours about
TSR sta taking cocaine suppositories, and will, in a spirit of gaming
fellowship, deny on its behalf that TSR has more lawyers than crea^ve
sta (at least, not if you include those in crea^ve accoun^ng).

(c) note. Porôns of the above contain words and arrangements of words
that may seem to have appeared before in DMG (1st ed), Dragon #1-200
inclusive, and so on. But since I write in English, not American, you can't
sue me for it :-P
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 19:41:00 -0600
X-To: Tom Harrison <sponge2@AIRMAIL.NET>

Oooh...prosecuôn....you know what? I'm so scared I think I wet
myself.

So, let's talk about that Daily Diety thing...I'm VERY interrested Mike.

Wayne Westphalen
***********************************************
Global Distribuôn Systems Supervisor
Radisson Hotels Worldwide
***********************************************


---------From: Tom Harrison

You realize that this list is most likely (c) TSR, Inc., and its
unapproved
pos^ng on this listserve is a violate of that law. Furthermore, the
unaurthorized usage of all the names of TSR's books, rst ediôn and
second, Dragon magazine, and abbreviaôns thereof, is further copyright
infringement.

Prepare for procescuôn.

Tom

Tom's usless trivia:

The longest word in the English language, according to the Oxford
English
Dicônary, is pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis.

The only other word with the same amount of lekers is
pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconioses, its plural.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 18:58:05 -0700
From: Price Benjamin John <priceb@UCSU.COLORADO.EDU>

Although I understand that most of you have had the opportunity to lament
TSR's smothering of DJ, I missed out completely on it when it happened.
I bought the books (main and magick) the rst ^me I saw them, because I
could tell that they would be worth reading, and it turned out to be my
favorite system. Unfortunately, I also had no net access for several years
aver, and lived in a VERY rural area, and so all I ever knew about the
court case was the leker I got from GDW when I tried to subscribe to the
magazine. It basically said, sorry, TSR owns it all, end of story. So, while
I can understand that it is old news, it is s^ll at least paâlly relevant
for list newbies like myself. Where should I go to learn more? Is that in
the log les?

At any rate, hello to all from the wind-scoured campus of CU!

Hi... my name is Ben Price, and... *choke* I'm... *sob* an RPG abuser...
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 22:10:10 -0500
Subject: TSR Et. Al.

Fellow listers,

I hate to further the drama, but I must say that ran^ng at TSR will do
absolutely nothing construc^ve. I don't hate TSR--I am angry at the people
who decided to take the acôns that resulted in TSR's gaining control of
Mythus. No amount of posturing by their PR sta will overcome the evidence
that it was purely a tact to stab Gary Gygax once and for all; and if anyone
has real evidence that there was no malice towards EGG in their acôns, I
would be happy to review it.

However, the fact remains that they do now own Mythus/DJ, though they have
done nothing with the system since paying all that money to acquire it. It
reminds me of those rumors about the oil companys buying up all the really
eec^ve solar collectors and burying the blueprints to avoid having people
move away from a dependence on oil. They must really have been afraid of
Mythus if they didn't have a grudge against Gary--but I've said this all
before in my open leker to Sean Reynolds.

So I thank the anonymous poster of those text les for the unexpected Xmas
giv, especially for the spirit in which it was posted. But I think now our
best strategy is to lie low and con^nue to keep the game alive in our
hearts, wai^ng for the ^me when it will be meet to rise it from the ashes
of its current grave. Let's con^nue to develop Mythus here and share our
thoughts with each other.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 02:31:42 -0400
Subject: ...and the band played on

As a gamer and a sovware developper this pisses me o to no end...

in any case....

perhaps with the internet becoming a vast place of informaôn this will
never really die and to me that's truly a shame.. if T$R want to try and
rule the gaming world as far as ancient fantasy is concerned then so be
it...perhaps it's ^me to take gaming to an "online" state...

Some friends of mine and I are wri^ng and FRPG and for those who are
reading from T$R .... I will personnally make sure that NOTHING ever
remotely looks like, feels like, or sounds like D&D or and deriva^ve
thereof.

What is interes^ng me is with two hundred and some people on this
list.. why hasn't building an RPG online never occured ? Would anyone be
interested in such a project ?

Keith Russell

*NOTE* Porôns of the above contain words and arrangements of words
that may seem to have appeared before in DMG (1st ed), Dragon #1-200
inclusive, and so on. But since this publicaôn is free to those who
want it. TSR will have to sue for the rights to Oxford's unabridged
dicônary before I stop using these words .
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 03:54:05 -0500
Subject: Re: ...and the band played on

Keith Russell wrote:

> Some friends of mine and I are wri^ng and FRPG and for those who are
> reading from T$R .... I will personnally make sure that NOTHING ever
> remotely looks like, feels like, or sounds like D&D or and deriva^ve
> thereof.
>
> What is interes^ng me is with two hundred and some people on this
> list.. why hasn't building an RPG online never occured ? Would anyone be
> interested in such a project ?

They have. The games are called MUD's and MUSH'es. In fact, if you folks
are into Mythus (like I really used to be, but then I got ARIA. :)),
telnet to:

nova.dimensional.com 2323

It's a place called Haven. It's cool.

Jesse
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 23:12:16 UT

I have to agree that I think TSR's got their derivi^ves, a likle m
ixed up and should try remembering that most of the ideas that were u
sed in ADD weren't exactly invented. So maybe they might realize tha
t D&D isn't the inspiraôn and base for all RPGs since.....

Shinsoku
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 12:17:35 -0400

Jesse wrote:
>
> Keith Russell wrote:
>
> > Some friends of mine and I are wri^ng and FRPG and for those who are
> > reading from T$R .... I will personnally make sure that NOTHING ever
> > remotely looks like, feels like, or sounds like D&D or and deriva^ve
> > thereof.
> >
> > What is interes^ng me is with two hundred and some people on this
> > list.. why hasn't building an RPG online never occured ? Would anyone be
> > interested in such a project ?
>
> They have. The games are called MUD's and MUSH'es. In fact, if you folks
*<snip>*

I think that I was less clear than I should have been ...I meant a FRPG
that an individual can download in text format o a web site perhaps. I
mean let's face it .. we goka have more imaginaôn than TSR's legal
team! One of my friends built one called "Lengends" and right now were
working on geing it in to a data format as well as working on a core
system to work with dierent worlds and ^mes much like the way
whitewolf's system works (vampire,werewolf,mage,etc.)

Regardless, I am only a newbie here on the mailing list so.. perhaps it
has been done already or perhaps we can even rebuild mythus xing all
the aws we've found and xing all the T$R problems with mythus, or
sit around and grump about mythus dieing...(ok.. so I have too much ^me
on my hands:))

Keith Russell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 12:34:29 -0500

Keith Russell wrote:
>
> Jesse wrote:
> >
> > Keith Russell wrote:
> >
> > > Some friends of mine and I are wri^ng and FRPG and for those who are
> > > reading from T$R .... I will personnally make sure that NOTHING ever
> > > remotely looks like, feels like, or sounds like D&D or and deriva^ve
> > > thereof.
> > >
> > > What is interes^ng me is with two hundred and some people on this
> > > list.. why hasn't building an RPG online never occured ? Would anyone be
> > > interested in such a project ?
> >
> > They have. The games are called MUD's and MUSH'es. In fact, if you folks
> *<snip>*
>
> I think that I was less clear than I should have been ...I meant a FRPG
> that an individual can download in text format o a web site perhaps. I
(Snipper)

Ah, I get it. :)

> Regardless, I am only a newbie here on the mailing list so.. perhaps it
> has been done already or perhaps we can even rebuild mythus xing all
> the aws we've found and xing all the T$R problems with mythus, or
> sit around and grump about mythus dieing...(ok.. so I have too much ^me
> on my hands:))

New people are the only thing that keeps us old folks from drying up
completely. :) Anyway, this is something I might be inclined to join in
on. I'm sick of gh^ng with certain Mythus rules. It might be fun to
put together a list of all the dierent variaôns that people come up
with, and keep them together somewhere (okay, so we all know 'somewhere'
would be Mike Phillips' page...). I already have plenty of rule
revisions I've worked out, but there are plenty more I'd like to change
(magick system #1 on that list...).

Jesse
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:36:45 -0500
From: "Karl J. Sak" <KarlSak@AOL.COM>

Could some one please send me a complete copy of the truth in business
e-mail, my copy was corrupted.

Thanks,

Karl
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 10:39:48 -0800
Subject: Language Rules quesôn

Suppose that a HP speaks both Greek and La^n (has taken the two K/S
areas). Do folks out there think that they "cross feed"? (Since La^n alone
would allow STEEP in Greek and vice versa) Do they just have the original
base amounts or are the K/S values enhanced?

John Stanton
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 12:50:31 -0600
In-Reply-To: <32B0301F.3995@auracom.com> from "Keith Russell" at Dec 12,
96 12:17:35 pm

> Keith Russell wrote:
> that an individual can download in text format o a web site perhaps. I
> mean let's face it .. we goka have more imaginaôn than TSR's legal
> team! One of my friends built one called "Lengends" and right now were
> working on geing it in to a data format as well as working on a core
> system to work with dierent worlds and ^mes much like the way
> whitewolf's system works (vampire,werewolf,mage,etc.)

If you want to do this great. I keep thinking that what I need is not
another game system but game-system-less supplements which are easy to
convert to whatever game I want to run. The last thing I want is to
learn a new game system every^me I see a neat concept or supplement.

Dan.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:02:59 +0000
In-Reply-To: <32B0301F.3995@auracom.com>

On Thu, 12 Dec 1996, Keith Russell wrote:

> Jesse wrote:
> > They have. The games are called MUD's and MUSH'es. In fact, if you folks
> *<snip>*
>
> that an individual can download in text format o a web site perhaps.

This is not a new idea (as you can imagine).

Try Eric's Compendium of Free RPG's:
hkp://www.iquest.net/~ericg/games/

It's got links to FUDGE, SLUG, and many more.

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:09:30 +0000

On Thu, 12 Dec 1996, Karl J. Sak wrote:

> Could some one please send me a complete copy of the truth in business
> e-mail, my copy was corrupted.

I did. It's taken care of. Don't mail-bomb the poor guy with addiônal
copies :-)

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:33:35 EST

On Wed, 11 Dec 1996 15:51:25 -0500 Loren Wiseman <GDWGAMES@AOL.COM>
writes:
>My, my...
>What an unexpected blast from the past.
>I had to read all of these documents in their original form, a few
>years ago.
>
>
>Loren Wiseman
> GDW Emeritus

For all you doubters,
It looks like Mr. Wiseman conrmed the validity of these past few posts.
Thank you, Loren for the comments, thank you Santa Claus for the nice
present.

For all you who know want to do more "Boycoing", I think that Perhaps
the prin^ng of the le (all 3 parts) and/or making a reader's digest
version would be a good idea, and to distribute them at Convenôns, as
well as electronically at web sites, BBS's, etc.

Wayne, we're all s^ll here, I just got back in town from a business
trip, and a lot of people have nals, I'm sure. Not to menôn the fact
that some probably are s^ll laying on the oor aver reading the
"complaint" and passing out!
Thank god for a high Cons^tuôn......(shit, T$R's probably going to sue
me now for using that word) I meant high stamina? (no that is derived
from T$R's word cons^tuôn........blah blah blah)

As far as my outrage, It's seething.
I heard this is what they did, but I didn't realize the scope or
magnitude, as I never got to actually "see" the documents. Yes, this has
all been said before, Yes it's ^me to get over it and move on, but I
think that once and a while we need to be reminded of what has happened,
so that we do not become too complacent. (but then again, maybe it's just
me....)

Perhaps T$R needs to next sue Webster's dicônary for using words like
"the", or
"and"..................................................................

And for those who think T$R wasn't "out to get Gary".....think about
this....
did T$R do this to any other company? Wasn't Gary's name listed as a
defendant?

>>I suppose by now most everyone agrees that they are Satan's minions on
Earth and this is just one more piece of evidence that supports it.<<

this is like nally deciphering the dead sea scrolls! This is a big
damn piece!

Happy Holidays,
Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:20:03 -0600
Subject: Re: Language Rules quesôn
In-Reply-To: <v03007804aed600a8bf54@[129.46.238.106]> from "John J. Stanton"
at Dec 12, 96 10:39:48 am

> Suppose that a HP speaks both Greek and La^n (has taken the two K/S
> areas). Do folks out there think that they "cross feed"? (Since La^n alone
> would allow STEEP in Greek and vice versa) Do they just have the original
> base amounts or are the K/S values enhanced?

I think it states in the book someplace (possibly in the languages K/S
Area descripôn) that the language relaôn chart is not the same as
Cross Feeding. Thus the answer to your quesôns would be No, Yes and
No. In that order.

In my opinion the language relaôn chart refers to congnates and similar
grammar which facilitates understanding but does not allow actuall
communicaôn. IE you might understand a likle bit, but might not
actually be able to say anything.

Dan,
Minion of Greg.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:36:23 -0600

Mythus-folk:

I nd it ironic that, immediately following a pos^ng of TSR's litany
against GDW for unauthorized publicaôn of deriva^ve products, people are
talking about developing and publishing online a FRPG containing, among
other things, rules and ideas derived from Mythus.

Which is why, when Dan Williamson writes:

>If you want to do this great. I keep thinking that what I need is not
>another game system but game-system-less supplements which are easy to
>convert to whatever game I want to run. The last thing I want is to
>learn a new game system every^me I see a neat concept or supplement.

I feel the need to second his thoughts. Generic supplements and ideas,
designed especially for *very* easy implementaôn into a Dangerous
Journeys system, are just what I'm in the market for. Besides, this way
you won't have anyone's legal department aver you.

-Doug

Doug Noonan
free@mcn.net
Bozeman, MT
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:08:37 -0700
From: Beelzebub <Benjamin.Price@COLORADO.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <v01510125aed60d1198de@[205.163.40.41]>

I have found that much of my enjoyment of RPGs comes from the
character of the game, not just the mechanics, and I imagine that this is
true for a lot of people. That is why I s^ll enjoy AD&D, even though the
mechanics of the system are less than ideal, and also why I was NOT
interested in 2nd Ediôn AD&D when it came out, because it seemed like
they went through and edited out all the elements that gave the game
character.
The point of this is that I think the hardest thing to do well in
a generic supplement is to make it mesh well with the character of many
game systems. One way to do it is to leave mechanics out of it completely,
and just give descripôns and character sketches in "book" form, i.e.
"This person is very strong, moderately quick, and is excepônally
skilled with the broadsword." Of course, this approach leaves a great deal
of work up to the GM in just giving everything stats. I suppose there
could be an appendix with several dierent forms of game stat (careful,
though, don't want to be DERIVATIVE!!! Gah!).
Anyone have any ideas on how to write a non-game-specic
supplement? Am I just completely brain damaged, to be picky about game
character?

Ben Price
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 17:30:00 -0800
Subject: Mythus Database --> Visual Basic

> Visual Basic uses forms to manipulate the database. I think it can do
> everything that access does thru SQLs. The only dierence is that with VB
> you can actually make an executable program that will run in WIN 95. It can
> print reports like a character sheet and other cool stu.If you want to do
> this you need to send me some technical info about the database. Like what
> querries your using where and for what.

Maybe if you could import forms from access to v-basic, it would save you a lot of work.

I don't know how much you know about database normalizaôn, but basically, the data tables are
related to the character inventory/lis^ng tables on a 1-many. Also the main character table is also
related 1-many to all of the character lis^ng tables. There is another table for extended character
data, for those larger feilds, and it is related to the main character table as 1-1.

The Character sheet query joins the character table and the extended character table and calculates
the categories, traits, and the ELs/WLs etc... The Character sheet form runs o of this query.

There are queries for all of the subforms to the character sheet form. All they do is join the data
tables to the character lis^ng tables. The character sheet subforms run o of these queries.

In the K/S area and Sub-Area queries, they are broken into three by triat. They are the same except
the criteria for the K/S area's Trait, which is in the data table. The sub-Area query has to join the
character's sub-area table to the K/S area data table, to nd out which trait that the sub-area's
host K/S area belongs to.

The K/S sub-area data tables are also related to the hand-weapon and missile-weapon talbes 1-many in
the Sub-Area eld.

The elds on the character sheet sub-forms that are from the data-tables are locked out. You can
only change the contents of the data tables through the data-entry forms.

I don't know if this is enough, but being able to look at the database via access and knowing some
realônal database concepts are the biggest help.

Maybe, I can nd out a way to save the relaônship layout to a disk as a graphic or ascii, so I can
send it to you.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 17:43:29 -0800
Subject: THE GREAT T$R (TSR) BOYCOTT
X-To: Marvalz@sprynet.com, mls-kcwiz@hoplite.org, intp@jubjub.wizard.com

> Oh my lord are you kidding me? You know what? I think that if everyone
> knew this, they would be nearly as sickened by it as I am. I think we
> need to re-invent the art of T$R bashing. I mean, if the pile of crap
> that I just read is true, then no game company or person wishing to
> write games should be able to sleep at night. Who knows when T$R is
> going to creep up on you in the middle of the night and ruin your life.
> Why not just le a claim against GOD for deriving everything from the
> DMG! I am having a hard ^me containing my rage at this point. If
> there is anything I can do to convince the gamers that I know (quite a
> number) to stop buying Big Brother's products I'm damn well going to do
> it.
>
> You can't honestly tell me that any sane person could keep buying T$R's
> products aver takin' a gander at that ar^cle. It looks like T$R's
> goken themselves a God complex....and we need to start spreading the
> gospel of the sacred "reality check" to our friends and neighbors.

How about pushing a great T$R Boycok, Just like they did in the Great
Exi^lus boycok (Which was of much success) that was brought on by the
author abandoning all upgrades and tech support of Ex^lius and s^ll
collec^ng thousands of dollars of registraôns.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 20:11:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Mythus Database --> Visual Basic

At 05:30 PM 12/1/96 -0800, you wrote:

>Maybe if you could import forms from access to v-basic, it would save you a
lot of work.

I don't know what your forms look like but what I had in mind was a form
that corresponded to the character sheets in back of the book. One form for
each page. There could be print, add, delete and random generaôn opôns
or whatever.
>
>I don't know how much you know about database normalizaôn

Just a likle. As of right now I working on a database applicaôn in a
similar area in VB.

>I don't know if this is enough, but being able to look at the database via
access and knowing some
>realônal database concepts are the biggest help.

I wish I had Access. I possibly plan to get it later on.
>
>Maybe, I can nd out a way to save the relaônship layout to a disk as a
graphic or ascii, so I can
>send it to you.

That would be good.
>
>

\\| J.R. Carter
\\ / / \ \ \ \ USA
--------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 20:06:29 -0600
Subject: Re: MYTHUS-L Digest - 9 Dec 1996 to 10 Dec 1996

> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:25:22 -0800
> From: Jesse Roberge <nebraska@MHV.NET>
> Subject: Re: Mythus Database
>
> Ken Kitowski wrote:
> >
> > If you are interested, I have a friend who owns something
> > called the "Microsov Access Developers Kit" (or something
> > like that). Retail price is approximately $1500. The
> > upshot of this thing is that it includes a MS Access
> > run^me which can be distributed with your MS Access
> > data les royalty free. While it doesn't let you all of
> > the program creaôn things that the regular access
> > product does, it does allow you to view and work with
> > applicaôns already developed in Access. (Plus it has
> > the advantage of not having all of those extra MS Access
> > windows in the background when your app is running...or so

> > I am told). I would be happy to re-package your app, bundled
> > with this viewer. My guess is that the viewer is quite large,
> > but at least this would provide some sort of access to the
> > program even if people don't have access to MS Access.
>
> Sure. I don't know how it works with forms and queries though. The
> forms are the coolest part and they are dependant on the queries that
> join tables together and do calculaôns for some minor automaôn.

The product is called the Microsov Access Developer's Toolkit (ADT).
I have just started playing around with it. It does indeed work
with forms and queries. The ADT is like a version of MS Access on
steroids! But the part of it that we are interested in the
run^me viewer that comes with it. The run^me viewer lets you use
everything you can create in MS Access. For example, you can see
and use forms in the viewer (lling them in and having associated
code run), but you cannot create forms in the viewer. It is
preky cool.

Basically, what you do is run a program that is included with the ADT.
This program takes the Access data les for your program and creates
a setup program for your Access program! When you run the setup
program, it installs the viewer and your applicaôn (and does other
nice things that setup programs normally do like crea^ng an icon in
your start menu). You can then double click on the icon and run
your Access program (even if you don't have Access installed).

This viewer is freely distributable in this fashion. It is royalty
free. It is great. For more informaôn, see:

hkp://www.microsov.com/Accessdev/AccInfo/InfoFram.htm#ADT

and select any of the links there.

Later,
krk.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 23:27:47 -0500

Keith Russell asks:

> why hasn't building an RPG online never occured ?

In my case, I don't want to expend the crea^ve energy on something that I
wouldn't be paid for. I don't want to sound mercenary, but "a workman is
worthy of his hire" and all that, and my landlord demands payment in legal
tender, not best wishes from readers and the sa^sfacôn of a job well done.

Loren Wiseman
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 20:49:10 -0800
X-cc: GDWGAMES@AOL.COM

At 11:27 PM 12/12/96 -0500, Loren Wiseman wrote:
>Keith Russell asks:
>
>> why hasn't building an RPG online never occured ?
>
>In my case, I don't want to expend the crea^ve energy on something that I
>wouldn't be paid for. I don't want to sound mercenary, but "a workman is
>worthy of his hire" and all that, and my landlord demands payment in legal
>tender, not best wishes from readers and the sa^sfacôn of a job well done.
>
> Loren Wiseman

Well, let me be the rst to say that the release of a 'generic'
city state that may or may not start with the leker "A" would
be an item I would purchase! hint hint nudge nudge...

Todd South
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 23:00:00 -0600

Thanks for the vote of condence. I know everyone's taking
nals...and I am sorry for all those engaged in the nal-taking
process. I remember how it feels...I was there 4 years ago. But, as
you said, it is nice to vent once and a while. On the other hand, I do
agree with Mike...we probably shouldn't let it get out of hand.

I think the distribuôn of the Truth in Business items in the Digest

form would be a wonderfull (allways double the nall "L"....Gemini
Killer...Exorcist III) thing. I'm sure someone would get pissed about
it, but it sure would be fun.

Are any of you going to GenCon this year? I'd love to meet some of you
in person. And...I need a damn vacaôn. If you're not going to
GenCon...perhaps you could suggest some other convenôns that I might
akend.

Wayne Westphalen
Date: Thursday, December 12, 1996 1:33PM

On Wed, 11 Dec 1996 15:51:25 -0500 Loren Wiseman <GDWGAMES@AOL.COM>
writes:
>My, my...
>What an unexpected blast from the past.
>I had to read all of these documents in their original form, a few
>years ago.
>
>
>Loren Wiseman
> GDW Emeritus

For all you doubters,
It looks like Mr. Wiseman conrmed the validity of these past few
posts.
Thank you, Loren for the comments, thank you Santa Claus for the nice
present.

For all you who know want to do more "Boycoing", I think that Perhaps
the prin^ng of the le (all 3 parts) and/or making a reader's digest
version would be a good idea, and to distribute them at Convenôns, as
well as electronically at web sites, BBS's, etc.

Wayne, we're all s^ll here, I just got back in town from a business
trip, and a lot of people have nals, I'm sure. Not to menôn the
fact
that some probably are s^ll laying on the oor aver reading the
"complaint" and passing out!
Thank god for a high Cons^tuôn......(shit, T$R's probably going to
sue
me now for using that word) I meant high stamina? (no that is derived
from T$R's word cons^tuôn........blah blah blah)

As far as my outrage, It's seething.

I heard this is what they did, but I didn't realize the scope or
magnitude, as I never got to actually "see" the documents. Yes, this
has
all been said before, Yes it's ^me to get over it and move on, but I
think that once and a while we need to be reminded of what has happened,
so that we do not become too complacent. (but then again, maybe it's
just
me....)

Perhaps T$R needs to next sue Webster's dicônary for using words like
"the", or
"and"..................................................................

And for those who think T$R wasn't "out to get Gary".....think about
this....
did T$R do this to any other company? Wasn't Gary's name listed as a
defendant?

>>I suppose by now most everyone agrees that they are Satan's minions on
Earth and this is just one more piece of evidence that supports it.<<

this is like nally deciphering the dead sea scrolls! This is a big
damn piece!

Happy Holidays,
Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 09:38:41 -0500
Subject: Other genres for DJ?

Has anyone done any other genres for DJ? I have seen the stu on Mike
Phillips site, but I was wondering if anyone else had any stu for
mul^-genre gaming. There was a thread on here earlier but not much was
said.
Scok Payne
The lurking Praetor is your judge, jury and execuôner.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 12:49:14 -0500
Subject: "Evening Odds"

I doubt this is really the right place to discuss this, but of you that have
read
EGG's Gord story in the Eternal Champion collecôn, do you think the story
was
badly edited? I caught quite a few errors in it that I thought should have
been
easily caught and corrected.

Note: I am not knocking EGG in this. I am not commen^ng on the quality of
the
story. I am only talking about the edi^ng of the story. And saying that
TSR
has bad edi^ng is a fallacious argument.

- Sean
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 13:01:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Other Genres for DJ?

I was wondering what other genres people would like to see? I remember
reading something about a Star Wars genre, and hard sci- (Abyss). Has
anybody thought about an anime-mecha genre or something similar. If so I
would greatly enjoy seeing it, if not I might put together some rules. Any
other ideas people.
For those not interested in other genres I will probably be sending a
creature up that some of you may or may not like. Its and undead/unliving
type of supernatural being, so watch for it some^me soon.
Scok Payne
The lurking Praetor is your judge, jury and execuôner (and possibly
deciding to not lurk as much).
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 13:13:58 -0500
Subject: Underwater Civilizaôns

I've been thinking (should probably be re-reading my Mythus books for my
game with Mike Phillips this weekend, but oh well), about the possibility
of one or more underwater civilizaôns, like the legendary Lemuria and
Atlan^s aver it was submerged. Would this be possible on exteriro AErth
or should it be limited to Phaeree. My personal thoughts is to s^ck it in
exterior AErth, because very few people would have the abiliês to know
about the deep depths of the ocean. This also leads me into a tangent
thought. What about a specic heka k/s area for the underwater magick of
this civilizaôn.
Oh well, I more than lled my quota of messages to the list.
Scok Payne
The no-longer(for now)lurking Praetor is your judge, jury and execuôner.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 19:47:53 +0100
Reply-To: gbabini@linknet.it
From: Dfron <gbabini@LINKNET.IT>
Subject: Kell^c Pantheon..

Here I am ;-)

Mike, please tell us about details of wri^ng a
Kell^c pantheon.
How can we share the task?

I was thinking about wri^ng Kelt vocaôns.

I've spent some ^me on Kel^c history and myths, so
I hope I can help.

P.S. By Xmas, I should have completed a good -I hope
so- :-) Mythus Character Sheet with CorelDraw! 6.
Will you, Mike, host my creaôn on your web space ?

Giuliano

gbabini@linknet.it
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 13:48:13 -0600
Subject: Re: ...and the band played on to generic supplements
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.961212135639.8592A-100000@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> from
"Beelzebub" at Dec 12, 96 02:08:37 pm

> The point of this is that I think the hardest thing to do well in
> a generic supplement is to make it mesh well with the character of many
> game systems. One way to do it is to leave mechanics out of it completely,
> and just give descripôns and character sketches in "book" form, i.e.
> "This person is very strong, moderately quick, and is excepônally
> skilled with the broadsword." Of course, this approach leaves a great deal
> of work up to the GM in just giving everything stats. I suppose there
> could be an appendix with several dierent forms of game stat (careful,
> though, don't want to be DERIVATIVE!!! Gah!).

Really the most important things to me are character mo^vaôns and
personality and story. In the decripôn of the character their
profession and story cri^cal skills are the only game mechanic like
informaôn that I want.

The story and encounters/events that make up the story are really game
seing independant. Every published module and game book says to
modify the book to t your players characters' abiliês. With a
vague, story oriented adventure you are forced to set the diculty
of the events commesurate with the characters' abiliês.

Dan
Minion of Greg
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 13:13:25 -0700
From: Beelzebub <Benjamin.Price@COLORADO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Underwater Civilizaôns
In-Reply-To: <m0vYcBV-00012zC@widomaker.com>

I can think of no reason why underwater civilizaôns wouldn't exist in
exterior Aerth, and in Phaeree as well (except really big, well fed
carnivorous sh! Heka-infused megalodon, anyone?)

As for a new cas^ng area: how about Dweomercraev, Blue School?

On Fri, 13 Dec 1996, Scok Payne wrote:

> I've been thinking (should probably be re-reading my Mythus books for my
> game with Mike Phillips this weekend, but oh well), about the possibility
> of one or more underwater civilizaôns, like the legendary Lemuria and
> Atlan^s aver it was submerged. Would this be possible on exteriro AErth
> or should it be limited to Phaeree. My personal thoughts is to s^ck it in
> exterior AErth, because very few people would have the abiliês to know
> about the deep depths of the ocean. This also leads me into a tangent
> thought. What about a specic heka k/s area for the underwater magick of
> this civilizaôn.
> Oh well, I more than lled my quota of messages to the list.
> Scok Payne
> praetor@widowmaker.com
> The no-longer(for now)lurking Praetor is your judge, jury and execuôner.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 15:37:22 -0500
Subject: Re: "Evening Odds"

>>>I doubt this is really the right place to discuss this, but of you that
have
read EGG's Gord story in the Eternal Champion collecôn, do you think the
story
was badly edited? I caught quite a few errors in it that I thought should
have
been easily caught and corrected.<<<

<smile>

Actually I found the edi^ng mediocre and the story preky much the same. I
enjoyed it more when it came out than I would now. At the ^me the books
came out they were the rst and for a while the only thing available.

On a related note, the Rose Estes follow on books were even more poorly
wriken and showed a inexcusable lack of understanding of the underlying game
system. If she ever played AD&D, which I have to doubt, she didn't learn it
from the same books I did. Again, the edi^ng was no beker and had the
Editor understood the game a rewrite would have been unavoidable.

Have a nice day.....

Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 16:29:38 -0800
From: rancour <rancour@MAINSERVER.DISCOVLAND.NET>
Organizaôn: Discoveryland Mul^media Inc.

Dan Williamson wrote:
>
> > Keith Russell wrote:
> > I think that I was less clear than I should have been ...I meant a FRPG
> > that an individual can download in text format o a web site perhaps. I
> > mean let's face it .. we goka have more imaginaôn than TSR's legal
> > team! One of my friends built one called "Lengends" and right now were
> > working on geing it in to a data format as well as working on a core
> > system to work with dierent worlds and ^mes much like the way
> > whitewolf's system works (vampire,werewolf,mage,etc.)
>
> If you want to do this great. I keep thinking that what I need is not
> another game system but game-system-less supplements which are easy to
> convert to whatever game I want to run. The last thing I want is to
> learn a new game system every^me I see a neat concept or supplement.
>
> Dan.

As a related note, those on TOAG-L (The Art of Game Mastering) are
discussing crea^ng a game world unrelated to any game system.

Their address is:
TAOGM-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM

Informaôn on the LISTSERV commands can be found in the LISTSERV
reference card, which you can retrieve by sending an "INFO
REFCARD"
command to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM.

- Serge
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 18:44:37 -0500
Subject: A new criker!

This sis a very powerful creature I'm going to use as a major villain in my
campaign.

Syvan
Idenêr: Humanoid
Habitat: Exterior AErth, otherwise unknown
Modes and Rates of Movement: walking 200yards/BT
In^â^ve Modier: Human Standard
Outstanding K/S Areas:
Combat HTH Lethal: 60
Combat Hand Weapons: 65
D-craev,Grey: 50
D-craev, Black: 45
Magick: 50
Sorcery: 45
Witchcraev: 50
Demonology: 60
Heka: 987 (FP)
Invulnerabiliês:
All non-enchanted weapons
Cold
Fire
Electricity
Poison
Illusion
Disease
Chemicals
Suscep^biliês:
Insinuaôn:Iron(x1), Argent(x2)
Contact: Blessed Symbol: 4D3PD

Exposure: Extreme Akrac^veness(21+): 1D3/CT
Joss: 8
Akrac^veness: -4
Quirks:Nil
Averaged Armor Protecôn: 37
Dodging:43% Avoidance:48/72/42

Akacks BAC DT Base
Claws(x2) 60 C 5d6
Weapon 65+wp * *
* By weapon type
Powers:
Darkseeing: see as daylight
Detect Spoken Decepôns and Lies: withing hearing distance
Illusory Form: 10 hour duraôn, 2/day
Sta^s^cal Detail:
M:145 EL:116 P:450 WL:337 CL:405 S:130 EL:104
MM:73 MR:72 PM:225 PN:225 SM:65 SP:65
MMCap:25 MRCap:24 PMCap:150 PNCap:150 SMCap:23 SPCap:23
MMPow:24 MRPow:24 PMPow:38 PNPow:38 SMPow:21 SPPow:21
MMSpd:24 MRSpd:24 PMSpd:37 PNSpd:37 SMSpd:21 SPSpd:21

Armor Scheme:
Area Pierce Cut Blunt Stun Fire Chemical Electrical
Ultra 60 60 60 60 * * *
Super 45 45 45 45 * * *
Vital 30 30 30 30 * * *
Non 15 15 15 15 * * *
Averaged 37 37 37 37 * * *

Commentary and Descripôn:
The Syvan is a very powerful supernatural being that appears as a
decaying, animated corpse. The lev side of the body is more decayed than
the right. These evil beings are the masters of decepôn, manipulaôn,
and intrigue. They do not take direct acôn in anything if they can help
it, prefering to run things from the shadowy recesses behind the throne.
It is rumored that many evil, oppressive relams are actually ruled by a
syvan from behind the scenes.
The Syvan are solitary creatures who hate one another and all creatures of
beauty. They akempt to destroy one another whenever they nd about the
other. This internal strife of these beings seems to be the only reason
that the Syvan don't control more areas.
The origins of these creatures is unknown and only speculated upon. Some
beleive they are a form of powerful undead, while others believe they are
some type of spirit which refused to die. As far as anyone knows the Syvan
are technically immortal, only dieing when killed by powerful opponents.
There are rumored to be ten to twenty of these creatures on AErth, but with
how secre^ve they are, the numbers might be as much as tenfold. Of course
many things might be akributed to them which are unrelated and actually
drive the gure. I personally believe there are only six or seven on
AErth, but as no one knows where they originate from, more could possibly
be wai^ng to enter AErth and manipulate things to their liking.

Well, everyone that is my major villain of the next campaign. I was
wondering if anyone actually used EGG's ideas about the Accursed in their
campaigns? This would be a perfect baddie for the Accursed.
Scok Payne
The now prolic Praetor is your judge, jury and execuôner.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 17:07:00 -0800

At 12:49 PM 12/13/96 -0500, Sean K Reynolds wrote:
>I doubt this is really the right place to discuss this, but of you that have
>read
>EGG's Gord story in the Eternal Champion collecôn, do you think the story
>was
>badly edited? I caught quite a few errors in it that I thought should have
>been
>easily caught and corrected.
>
>Note: I am not knocking EGG in this. I am not commen^ng on the quality of
>the
>story. I am only talking about the edi^ng of the story. And saying that
>TSR
>has bad edi^ng is a fallacious argument.
>
>- Sean

The problem I had with that book, in par^cular, is it went on
and on with, IMO, meaningless dialogue but was extremely short
descripôns of the relaônships between the people. Maybe,
for me, it was just too much of a rush, but I'll freely admit I
like long novels.

Todd (not cc:ing Sean cuz he asked not to be) South 8^)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 07:13:08 +0000

Subject: Re: Other genres for DJ?

Yes I am currently running an espionage role playing game. It was
easlily made into a modern day game. I added a few skills such as
driving, electronics and so on. It is working quite well I might
add.

Randy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 13:04:49 EST
Subject: Alignment?

Ya know,
I was doing some serious thinking the past couple of days,
and I came to a conclusion concerning ethos, alignment and
TSR.............
It SEEMS to me that if I were to term the en^ty TSR into ethos and
alignments
within the DJ and EGS systems, I come up with these:

Ethos of Shadowy Darkness:
too broad to dene, not gloomy darkness, and denately not sunlight(as
TSR tries to convince the public that it is a good, wholesome family
game, made by people who really care about ROLE-PLAYING games)

AD&D?
Neutral evil.

anyone else nd these two to be accurate (non-TSR employees, please)?

Star^ng to regain my "thousand yard stare",
Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 13:04:50 EST

Sean K Reynolds writes:
>I doubt this is really the right place to discuss this, but of you
>that have read EGG's Gord story in the Eternal Champion collecôn, do
you >think the story was badly edited? I caught quite a few errors in it
that I thought >should have been easily caught and corrected.

>
You got that right about this not being the place to post it, try the
Greyhawk List.

But while we're on the subject of
edi^ng..................................

>I am only talking about the edi^ng of the story. And saying
>that TSR has bad edi^ng is a fallacious argument.

well, I don't think I'm being fallacious (and correct me if I'm wrong)
when I was ac^vely purchasing TSR products, I can recall spending rst
$12 on a nice hard back book, then $15, then $15 on a sovcover "player's
handbook" (made for every conceivable race/class combinaôn, then $18,
then $20+.
It was funny to me that TSR charged such a high price for a book with
Typos, gramma^cal errors, etc.
As a maker of fact, I don't think there is one of those books I own
without a Typo.
Perhaps TSR should' ve spent more ^me edi^ng its products or actually
developing QUALITY products than persuing Dangerous Journey's (and EGG)
with such venom.

Not that ALL of the books are bad,
It would just be nice to have them Free of
typos...............................

yet I digress

S^ll Fuming,
Chris

BTW,
Sean, what's your (and TSR's) ocial PR statement on our likle Xmas
present, anyway?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 18:51:57 -0500
Subject: Dragon Mag accep^ng DJ ar^cles?

Well, the other day I wrote to TSR's Dragon Mag, asking about DJ ar^cles.
The answer I got back was that right now no, but to check back in six
months. Whether this might be a ^ny sliver of hope or not for TSR
suppor^ng DJ, but I thought I might just forward the answers I get back to
the list for your edicaôn.
Scok Payne

=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 18:55:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Alignment?

> Ya know,
> I was doing some serious thinking the past couple of days,
> and I came to a conclusion concerning ethos, alignment and
> TSR.............
> It SEEMS to me that if I were to term the en^ty TSR into ethos and
> alignments
> within the DJ and EGS systems, I come up with these:
>
> Ethos of Shadowy Darkness:
> too broad to dene, not gloomy darkness, and denately not sunlight(as
> TSR tries to convince the public that it is a good, wholesome family
> game, made by people who really care about ROLE-PLAYING games)
I would second this choice, since it includes those full of decepôn, just
like a certain company we all know and "love".
> AD&D?
> Neutral evil.
I don't know. Maybe Chao^c neutral would be beker. Fits with their
inability to decide what they are going to do.
> anyone else nd these two to be accurate (non-TSR employees, please)?
>
> Star^ng to regain my "thousand yard stare",
> Chris
Scok Payne
The Praetor is your judge, jury and execuôner (of T$R).
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 16:00:47 +0100
Subject: Re: THE GREAT T$R (TSR) BOYCOTT
In-Reply-To: <32A23441.7ED4@mhv.net>

On Sun, 1 Dec 1996, Jesse Roberge wrote:
> How about pushing a great T$R Boycok, Just like they did in the Great
> Exi^lus boycok (Which was of much success) that was brought on by the
> author abandoning all upgrades and tech support of Ex^lius and s^ll
> collec^ng thousands of dollars of registraôns.

Sit down a moment and think. Do you really feel that the handful of
people on this list (and a couple of more they might know) make a
dierence for TSR? Even *if* you'd get all the people on the list to
boycok TSR (I'd bet that at most 10% would cooperate; I for sure won't)
and they get some friends to do that, you *maybe* have something like 300
people or so. And what? EVen if each of them would spend $100 a year on
TSR products (I'd bet that the average value is actually much lower since
you'll have more players than GM's) that would be a cut of maybe $30000.
They won't even no^ce.

All these boycok ideas are nonsense and very childish. If you are
unhappy with TSR take the ^me to sit down and write a reasonable leker
to their customers support. Then maybe you'll be no^ced.


Thomas.

P.S.: I'd even bet that 90% of the people yelling at TSR are too lazy to
write such a leker and do something truly construc^ve... *shakes his
head*

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 21:22:33 EST
Subject: THE GREAT T$R (TSR) BOYCOTT

Thomas Biskup writes:
>Sit down a moment and think. Do you really feel that the handful of
>people on this list (and a couple of more they might know) make a
>dierence for TSR? Even *if* you'd get all the people on the list to
>boycok TSR (I'd bet that at most 10% would cooperate; I for sure
>won't)
<<SNIP>>

Unfortunately,
He's right about this list not even making an impact on T$R's pocket
book,
and that's not where they should be hit.
But if santa claus were to send copies of his les to the countless
other mailing lists
(T$R based, ex-GDW based, generic RPG based, etc., ) perhaps someone
would take no^ce.........doubul, but maybe.
The boycoing issue has been brought up countless ^mes before, and
unforunately there isn't enough interest in DJ for the 200+ members (some
memebers are listed twice) to make a dent. IMHO the aim should be to
inform the public of TSR's "aitude".
T$R doesn't focus on the more "mature" players that seem to make
up the bulk of this list, they focus on the 16 year old kids, who've got
dad's money to burn. Perhaps if they knew T$R was just using them and
didn't really give a shit about role-playing, they'd start to raise a
fuss. example:
My younger brother's 16 year old friend said to me that he had
pictured TSR sta as guys who sit around a big table and actually PLAY
the products they produce. He thought that they actually cared about
gaming and gamers. Aver he read Santa's present, he no longer felt that
way, and that they were indeed the money-grubbing vindic^ve people I
believed them to be for quite a while now
So maybe the way to go about this is to dissiminate as much FACTUAL
informaôn as we have at our disposal to the otherwise ignorant
role-playing populace which exists out there.

>All these boycok ideas are nonsense and very childish. If you are
>unhappy with TSR take the ^me to sit down and write a reasonable
>leker to their customers support. Then maybe you'll be no^ced.

Yeah, right.
Just like the leker wri^ng campaign that the Greytalk list has done to
get Greyhawk resurrected (opps.....T$R owns that word)?
Just like the leker wri^ng campaign that the Mythus list did get Mythus
raised (opps.....T$R owns that word, too)?
That whole lawsuit T$R had was Childish (to the point of obcenity) and
nonsense.
And talk about childish! How about a TSR employee who makes public
statements that EGG had a cocaine problem, and this was 2nd or 3rd hand
info, given to him by his propagandist employers.........ummm.......(or
so I heard)

I even heard TSR plans to sue the writers of the Old testament because
TSR created the Idea of Con^nual Light, so when God said, "Let there be
light!" He is in violaôn of TSR's
copyright...........................................;)

>P.S.: I'd even bet that 90% of the people yelling at TSR are too lazy
>to write such a leker and do something truly construc^ve... *shakes
his
>head*

Been the leker route......it has REALLY worked.
What other "construc^ve" ideas would you suggest?
from the tone I gather you s^ll purchase and play/run TSR material,
right?

Dreaming,
Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 22:16:39 -0500

> >I doubt this is really the right place to discuss this, but of you
> >that have read EGG's Gord story in the Eternal Champion collecôn, do you

> >think the story was badly edited? I caught quite a few errors in it that
I thought
> >should have been easily caught and corrected.
>
> You got that right about this not being the place to post it, try the
> Greyhawk List.

You must've not been around here long. In the past, we've discussed
other projects by the authors of DJ, including the Gord the Rogue books and
some of the things Dave's doing over at Mercy Studios. We're not quite so
formal as all that around here.

>> But while we're on the subject of
>> edi^ng..................................
>
> >I am only talking about the edi^ng of the story. And saying
> >that TSR has bad edi^ng is a fallacious argument.
>
> well, I don't think I'm being fallacious (and correct me if I'm wrong)
> when I was ac^vely purchasing TSR products, I can recall spending rst
> $12 on a nice hard back book, then $15, then $15 on a sovcover "player's
> handbook" (made for every conceivable race/class combinaôn, then $18,
> then $20+.
> It was funny to me that TSR charged such a high price for a book with
> Typos, gramma^cal errors, etc.
> As a maker of fact, I don't think there is one of those books I own
> without a Typo.
> Perhaps TSR should' ve spent more ^me edi^ng its products or actually
> developing QUALITY products than persuing Dangerous Journey's (and EGG)
> with such venom.
>
> Not that ALL of the books are bad,
> It would just be nice to have them Free of
> typos...............................

Yeah, I thought the same thing about Mythus. The main book is rife
with gramma^cal and textual errors, some of which could have been picked up
by any good word processor, and there are even some places where elipses
(-5sp) have been used where it seems as if the author had more to say, but it
was chopped or never got wriken. The adventure in the back of the main book
has many OP's that don't conform to the rules, especially those Heka-users in
there. Much informaôn was chopped, and much unnecessary informaôn that
was repeated and treated in much more detail in later books (my guess is so
that you could theore^cally play with just the main book and nothing else,
but there really wasn't enough there to do it). You'd think for $25 a pop
for a sov-cover book they'd get it right, eh?
Oh, and concerning the rise in prices, I'm guessing you haven't had your
ear too close to the publishing business over the last decade or so. Paper
prices have been going through the roof since AD&D rst came out, rising
much faster than would normally be due to inaôn. The Vampire: The
Masquerade book, for example, is a hardcover tome of 266 pages, black and
white illustraôns, and cos^ng $28, leaving us with an average cost of
$.1053 per page. Mythus Magick was sovcover, black and white illustraôns,
with 381 pages, cos^ng $24, leaving us with an average of $.0630 per page.
The Monstrous Manual, by TSR, is a hardback book of 384 pages, with full
color illustraôns on every pages, cos^ng $24.95. That leaves us with an
average price of $.0650 per page. Hmmmm...actually, it would seem to me
that, when compared with the rest of the gaming industry, TSR isn't doing
that bad with the actual pricing, especially considering that the work in
quesôn from GDW was not hardcover and did not have full color illustraôns
on every page. The edi^ng in the Monstrous Manual is also fairly superb.
The copious omissions and errors of Mythus Magick have been recently posted,
so I won't go over those again. The MM doesn't seem to have a great many
editorial mistakes, but if you've come across them, please inform me, this
opinion isn't based on any hard facts.
Basically, what I'm trying to say here is that every company has it's
problems with pricing and edi^ng, but to lambast TSR on these points brings
to mind a saying about geological formaôns and crystalline residences. I
love Mythus, to no end. It does frustrate me that the edi^ng job,
especially on the main book, was one of the poorest jobs I've seen in the
industry. It was apparent, from the compara^ve high quality of subsequent
books like Necropolis and the Besâry, that Mythus was rushed into
producôn way too quickly, and too much was crammed into one book for it to
be cohesive (at the expense of much more important informaôn that only made
it to the pages of MMM or Journeys).
Next ^me, please, watch that knee...I got a bruise. ;)

Lucifer >:}
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 23:46:05 +0000

Akribuôns restored aver a quick poke through the logles...

On Sat, 14 Dec 1996, Prince O. Darkness wrote:
> Chris Stainton (kappaabz@juno.com) wrote:
> > Sean Reynolds (TSRInc@AOL.COM) wrote:

> > >I doubt this is really the right place to discuss this, but of you
> > >that have read EGG's Gord story in the Eternal Champion collecôn, do you
> > >think the story was badly edited? I caught quite a few errors in it that
> > >I thought should have been easily caught and corrected.
> >
> > You got that right about this not being the place to post it, try the
> > Greyhawk List.
>
> You must've not been around here long. In the past, we've discussed
> other projects by the authors of DJ, including the Gord the Rogue books and
> some of the things Dave's doing over at Mercy Studios. We're not quite so
> formal as all that around here.

I would make the argument that Gord *is* relevant. Yea, e'en though he
began life on Greyhawk as an orphaned child, he became a traveller who
lev the AD&D Universe (of it's planes and such) behind. At the end of
Dance of Demons, Gord is Rex Felis (presumably in Phaeree), Leda is Queen
of the "Shadowrealm", and Gellor is Demiurge of Hy Brazeal. Gord & Leda
are wed in a ceremony akended by the ve kings of Avillon (Albion,
Caledonia, Cymru, Hybernia, and Lyonesse), among others. In fact, the
name "Yarth" rears its head, a world-name that shows up more than once in
the DJ novels too.

Oh yes, and in Night Arrant, Gord and Chert cross path with "Zenobia of
Aerth".

I second our resident devil, given Gord's creator and Gord's penchant for
interdimensional heroism, a new story by him *would* be rather on topic.

As for the edi^ng commentary (snipped away), I will merely add that the
rst Mythus books are poorly edited. As a minor example, as I was
reading some small material in Epic of AErth as preparaôn for the game
tomorrow, I read the currency secôn near the beginning. It suggested a
5% cost for conver^ng government-minted bars to coinage, thus 1000 BUCs
of bar would net 900 BUCs of coin. The merchant must be taking quite a
cut ;-)

Some people (SJG) generally edit beker than others (WW), but there is
such poor edi^ng in Mythus, let's not be pots accos^ng kekles here...

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 23:06:26 -0500

Subject: Do what is needed.

Thomas Biskup wrote:
>
----SNIP------> All these boycok ideas are nonsense and very childish. If you are
> unhappy with TSR take the ^me to sit down and write a reasonable leker
> to their customers support. Then maybe you'll be no^ced.
---SNIP----
Boycoing is not "nonsense and childish." That is the kind of aitude
that keeps the majority of voters out of the vo^ng booths, and why when
I cast my ballot, I am vo^ng for 10,000+ people. Making money is the
bokom line for any prot oriented business. If a $30,000 statement is
all that can be done, it should be made. Furthermore, if you believed
what TSR has done is wrong, and boycoing is necessary then *do it.* As
a consumer, TSR will not be supported on your dollar.

However, Thomas Biskup is correct about a leker. If you do believe TSR
is wrong then write them a paper leker. Make sure you are cordial; give
the some demographic informaôn about yourselves as well as how much
money you spent on them in the past. Further, make sure you tell how
much you will spend on them in the future un^l DANGEROUS JOURNEYS(DJ)
is re-released and supported. At least, the customer rep department will
earn their keep by opening and reading a few hundred lekers before they
circular le your lekers. Who knows, TSR might just bring DJ back. I
have been mo^vated enough to send a leker. Zena Marley's quote
applies.

Be Mo^vated.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 23:52:36 CST
From: "Adam K. A. Mortara" <akmortar@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>
Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE

Adam Karl Augus^ne Mortara University of Chicago '96
akmortar@midway.uchicago.edu Milk and honey are just around the bend
hkp://structures.uchicago.edu/akmortar
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 10:20:06 -0500

>anyone else nd these two to be accurate (non-TSR employees, please)?

Uh, no. I really am awfully angry at TSR's management for taking the acôns
they have regarding EGG and DJ. However, I think it is on the melodrama^c
side to label TSR as neutral evil. I mean, really. They just make games,
that is all. Bloodless, lifeless, deary games, perhaps, but games
nonetheless.

Now your asserôn about Shadowy Darkness is a beker one, since Shadowy
Darkness isn't really evil, at least for the most part. In fact, it is one
of the more interes^ng parts of the DJ system, since it encompasses a
selshness and a sort of "darkness" morally without falling all the way over
into evil. The en^re idea is really great (the ethos system, I mean, not
TSR being run by Shadowy Darkness people). Despite what I am sure TSR's
lawyers akempt to allege, it is not related at all to the AD&D system except
in the most general terms, and there are other game systems whose alignment
rules are more derived from AD&D than Mythus. If they wanted to prosecute
anyone for thev, how about Runequest or Tunnels and Trolls? (NOTE: I am
not saying that there is grounds to prosecute those games' manufacturers,
either; I merely say an unbiased person could nd many more parallels
between T&T and D&D/AD&D than between DJ and D&D/AD&D.)

So, I have to say only one thumb up on this one, IMO.

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 11:03:00 -0500

>And talk about childish! How about a TSR employee who makes public
>statements that EGG had a cocaine problem, and this was 2nd or 3rd hand
>info, given to him by his propagandist employers.........ummm.......(or
>so I heard)

I didn't want to perpetuate this thread, but I'd heard the same thing from
someone who worked at TSR West, when it existed. Realizing that this person
worked for the company that had pushed out EGG I took it with a shaker full
of salt, but it might interest the list to know that this rumor has been
oa^ng around TSR since at least 1991.

I gave it the same low probability that I do now, par^cularly since I am
given to understand that Gary was geing divorced about the same ^me as the
TSR takeover happened. Though I've never been married, I've been acquainted
with many divorcees and I understand that people on opposite sides of a
marriage can get preky nasty. I'm not saying his ex-wife started that
rumor, but it seems that around that ^me a lot of people had some interest
in akacking EGG. Who knows how it got started?

Don
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 12:20:55 -0500

At 11:03 AM 12/15/96 -0500, Donald Eccles wrote:
>>And talk about childish! How about a TSR employee who makes public
>>statements that EGG had a cocaine problem, and this was 2nd or 3rd hand
>>info, given to him by his propagandist employers.........ummm.......(or
>>so I heard)
>
>I didn't want to perpetuate this thread, but I'd heard the same thing from
>someone who worked at TSR West, when it existed. Realizing that this person
>worked for the company that had pushed out EGG I took it with a shaker full
>of salt, but it might interest the list to know that this rumor has been
>oa^ng around TSR since at least 1991.

Rumors like this have existed for a long ^me. Rumors of Substance Abuse
(be it Alcohol or Coke), mental breakdown,the rumor that Gygax was married
to Lorraine Williams, have been around for a long ^me. The former seems
unlikely. He s^ll drinks (either Gin or Mar^ni), and though he's a very
adamant Libertarian (yes, he belongs to the party!), he's always hinted at
Drug usage being something awful (in games and literature, which reect
his perspec^ve, and essays).

I'm not rude enough to ask Gary if any of these rumors have any grain of
truth. All I can say is Gary has always treated me with kindness and
respect, many of his fans, correspondants, and friends. A lot of people
forget that despite the "legendary" or "infamous" status, he's s^ll an
aging mortal man who's both a current father (10 year-old Alex) and a
grandfather, s^ll trying to make a living, and despite not seeing the
fruits of his labor works very hard at wri^ng. The way I gure, if--and
I mean if--he had any form of problem in the past, they were in the past
and have been dealt with, and he likely paid the price for that. He
certainly shows no signs of engaging in self-destruc^ve behavior--I doubt
friends and family would put up with that.

And I have a feeling if it was more than just a rumor, we'd have heard of
it a long ^me ago, and it would be more widespread.

>I gave it the same low probability that I do now, par^cularly since I am
>given to understand that Gary was geing divorced about the same ^me as the
>TSR takeover happened. Though I've never been married, I've been acquainted
>with many divorcees and I understand that people on opposite sides of a
>marriage can get preky nasty. I'm not saying his ex-wife started that
>rumor, but it seems that around that ^me a lot of people had some interest
>in akacking EGG. Who knows how it got started?

Actually, I believe Gary's divorce happened sooner than during TSR's
breakup. Basically, Mary-Jean got half the stock, based on WI divorce laws
(I think they're really cut-it-down-the-middle) types. Mary ended up
selling it to the Blumes. If I'm not mistaken, this happened in 1981 or
so. I know things weren't going as well between them: for those that
don't know, Greyhawk's Pomarj, the place where lots of horrid monsters lie,
is named aver Mary-Jean.

You are most denately right about the nasty part. At one point during
one phone conversaôn, Gary went into a mini-^rade about her, an event
that made me very uncomfortable, . Divorce can do that.

=======================================================================
John R. Troy (JRT) | SHARING.COM is an organizaôn devoted to geing
johntroy@âc.net | people involved with chariês during Holidays. For
Seasons Gree^ngs! | more info, see the site at hkp://www.sharing.com/
=======================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 02:22:12 +0100
From: "Peter H. Jensen" <met_pete@POST3.TELE.DK>
Subject: The ever going ^rade

Hey.

I have been playing roleplaying games for some years and became quite sad
when I found out
that Mythus wouldn't be supported by anyone, because it is one of the best
systems i have ever
played with.

Imagine my joy, when I found the Mythus-L list, because here I was able to
read about how other people
uses and interprets the rules. And on occasion I even got Adventure ideas.

So what's this about law-suit, and TSR and .........

I'am now receiving more junk (excuse the expression) than mails which i can
use, in rela^ng to
the rules.

Didn't someone at some ^me point out the fact that the discussion about
TSR and Gary Gygax
was over and done with.

Do not be oended, but it seems that people enjoy discussing TSR more than
playing. I am Danish
and therefore not as close to the things happening "over there", but even i
knew that there was trouble
between Gygax and TSR before i signed up on this list.

And now people have come to a point were even rumours can be used as the
point of discussion. I don't get it.
I can understand the excitement when the transcript of the TSR law suit was
put on the list, but rumours???

Otherwise I look forward to reading the mail from the list everyday.

Pardon my English

From Peter Hxjbjerg Jensen
Email: met_pete@post3.tele.dk
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 15:05:22 +1300
Subject: Re: The ever going ^rade

Peter Hxjbjerg Jensen wrote:

>I have been playing roleplaying games for some years and became quite sad
>when I found out >that Mythus wouldn't be supported by anyone, because it
>is one of the best>systems i have ever>played with.>Imagine my joy, when I
>found the Mythus-L list, because here I was able to>read about how other
>people >uses and interprets the rules. And on occasion I even got
>Adventure ideas.
...

>Didn't someone at some ^me point out the fact that the discussion about
>TSR and Gary Gygax >was over and done with.
...

>And now people have come to a point were even rumours can be used as the
>point of discussion. I don't get it.
>I can understand the excitement when the transcript of the TSR law suit was
>put on the list, but rumours???

Peter,

You're quite right. The sad and bloody history of Mythus should be in a FAQ
somewhere (especially since people tend to get it mixed up), and this list
should be primarily for discussions of Mythus.

On the other hand, kicking out at TSR on occasion can be quite cathar^c
for those of us with less-than-perfect S traits. Not all of us prac^ce
compassion and forgiveness 2 hours a day before breakfast like the Dalai
Lama :-)

To keep this post from being mere junk mail, I'll ask: is anyone preparing,
or has anyone prepared, or does anyone want to prepare a Mythus FAQ? There
was talk of it at one ^me, but I can't recall anything denite being
produced.

Malcolm
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 21:53:19 +0000
Subject: FAQ creaôn (was Re: The ever going ^rade)
In-Reply-To: <v01540b02aeda5b2d4224@[202.36.219.4]>

I had Mythus players over today, so I'm feeling a likle mellow :-)

On Mon, 16 Dec 1996, Malcolm Bowers wrote:

> To keep this post from being mere junk mail, I'll ask: is anyone preparing,
> or has anyone prepared, or does anyone want to prepare a Mythus FAQ? There
> was talk of it at one ^me, but I can't recall anything denite being
> produced.

Since (I believe) no one has picked up the gauntlet, and I'm planning on
doing a lot of Mythus & DJ-related work over Christmas break, I'll work up
a FAQ. *BUT:* if someone else is already working on it, I'll be content
merely to help (I have *plenty* of stu planned).

Suggested quesôns to answer are welcome, but they are probably best sent
via private e-mail. No reason to ood the list more ;-)

My preliminary quesôns to cull answers for are:

I. General Informaôn:
(1) What's DJ/Mythus?
(2) I heard something about a lawsuit. What happened to DJ/Mythus?
(3) What's up with Gary Gygax? Dave Newton? et al.?
II. Rules stu:
(1) How do you handle Trigger Eect?

(2) How about Full Prac^ce?
(3) What's with this discrepancy between the descripôns and the
Heka-genera^ng chart?
(4) What happened to the Phoenecian coinage?
III. Source stu:
(1) None of the pantheon stu was ever published! Is there anything
which can help? (and Mike answers, er, modestly <grin>)
(2) Hey, wasn't there supposed to be a Phaeree Besâry?
(3) And MMM? Journeys?
(4) Why wasn't Dangerous Ideas 6 nished? (sorry, Jesse, couldn't
resist! <grin>)
IV. Other places to visit
(1) FTP & Web Sites
(2) Useful source material

I think those are the most common quesôns, but I'm sure others will
cheerfully add to it :-)

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 01:31:54 -0500


<< AD&D?
Neutral evil.
>>
I those terms, Lawful Neutral. As long as it is within the leker of the
law......
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 01:41:29 -0500
Subject: Re: FAQ creaôn (was Re: The ever going ^rade)

> (4) Why wasn't Dangerous Ideas 6 nished? (sorry, Jesse, couldn't
> resist! <grin>)

Mike- Bite me. :)

However, I am thinking of working up some ARIA-Mythus conversion notes

over the months I'm in Europe... :P

Jesse
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 11:01:00 -0600
X-To: Malcolm Bowers <malcolm@ADI.CO.NZ>

Yes, I was thinking about preparing something FAQ-like. More of a
complilaôn of player-generated rules variants than a FAQ...but,
perhaps, with elements of a FAQ. You know what? I don't know what I'm
talking about...I'm s^ll sleeping. No, really...I'm going throught the
92-96 log les and trying to prepare the item menôned above. It may
take some ^me..

I'm willing to help with a FAQ...

Wayne Westphalen
phalen@concentric.net (home)
WWestphalen@Radisson.com (work...sucks)

---------From: Malcolm Bowers
Date: Monday, December 16, 1996 9:05AM

Peter Hxjbjerg Jensen wrote:

>I have been playing roleplaying games for some years and became quite sad
>when I found out >that Mythus wouldn't be supported by anyone, because it
>is one of the best>systems i have ever>played with.>Imagine my joy, when I
>found the Mythus-L list, because here I was able to>read about how other
>people >uses and interprets the rules. And on occasion I even got
>Adventure ideas.
...

>Didn't someone at some ^me point out the fact that the discussion about
>TSR and Gary Gygax >was over and done with.
...

>And now people have come to a point were even rumours can be used as the
>point of discussion. I don't get it.
>I can understand the excitement when the transcript of the TSR law suit was
>put on the list, but rumours???

Peter,

You're quite right. The sad and bloody history of Mythus should be in a
FAQ
somewhere (especially since people tend to get it mixed up), and this
list
should be primarily for discussions of Mythus.

On the other hand, kicking out at TSR on occasion can be quite cathar^c
for those of us with less-than-perfect S traits. Not all of us prac^ce
compassion and forgiveness 2 hours a day before breakfast like the Dalai
Lama :-)

To keep this post from being mere junk mail, I'll ask: is anyone
preparing,
or has anyone prepared, or does anyone want to prepare a Mythus FAQ?
There
was talk of it at one ^me, but I can't recall anything denite being
produced.

Malcolm
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 12:36:36 EST
Subject: OK, back to the game...then

Who has converted basic AD&D systems into Mythus stu?

And how did you do it?

is that beker, guys?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 12:36:36 EST

Prince O. Darkness writes:

> You must've not been around here long.

Uh....no, Not long at all....
what cons^tutes long?

> Yeah, I thought the same thing about Mythus. The main book is
>rife with gramma^cal and textual errors, some of which could have been
>picked up by any good word processor, and there are even some places
where
>elipses (-5sp) have been used where it seems as if the author had more
to say,
>but it was chopped or never got wriken. <SNIP>
>You'd think for $25 a pop for a sov-cover book they'd get it right, eh?

well, IF GDW/EGG were in a real hurry to get it out, which to my eye
seems to be the case, then I can accept the errors and descrepancies as
part of a new project's desire to be in the market. The subsequent works
were not as error lled, or so it seems.

> Oh, and concerning the rise in prices, I'm guessing you haven't
>had your ear too close to the publishing business over the last decade
or so.

No, my ear has been busy with other things. But as a consumer I know
what I like, and want, and whether it is worth the price i am going to be
paying.

> Basically, what I'm trying to say here is that every company has
>it's problems with pricing and edi^ng, but to lambast TSR on these
points
>brings to mind a saying about geological formaôns and crystalline
>residences.

Lambast? I was only poin^ng out the error of making a "fallacious
argument".
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 12:36:35 EST
Subject: "Alignment!"

Richard Crook said:

<< AD&D? Neutral evil. >>
> I those terms, Lawful Neutral. As long as it is within the leker of
>the law......

OK,
but which law are we talking about?
The laws of the US?
what about the sherman An^-Trust law...............................
If it HAD gone to court (and GDW probably should've anyway {hindsight
being 20/20}), I really don't think that , in its present form, it would
have won the case.
As the public has so recently no^ced, it doesn't maker if you're right
or wrong, it only makers if you can aord the akorneys. IMHO

But i digress..............

Lemme dust o my 2nd ed Player's Handbook............................
And I quote (this is for reference and discussion, so please don't sue my
broke ass)
"Neutral evil Characters are Primarily concerned with themselves
and their own advancement....."
Hmmm..............................................ok
"They have no par^cular objecôn to working with others
.....<SNIP>
...Their only interest is geing ahead. If there is a quick and easy
way to gain a prot, whether it be legal, quesônable, or obviously
illegal, they take advantage of it.......<SNIP>.....they have no qualms
about betraying their friends or companions for personal gain...."

CN, however is too unpredictable and reckless to be the TSR's alignment,
IMHO.
That's why I chose NE as an overall "Alignment" for that nice company.
To me, at least, it seems to t into place.

I guess I am alone in this thought, of course everyone (TSR alike) is
en^tled to his or her own opinion.

And quite frankly, I've seen more "trac" with this thread(s) than I
have on previous ones in a while.

So...................
anyone want to talk about the game?

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 12:43:51 -0800
Subject: Re: MYTHUS-L Digest - 9 Dec 1996 to 10 Dec 1996

Ken Kitowski wrote:
>
> > Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:25:22 -0800
> > From: Jesse Roberge <nebraska@MHV.NET>
> > Subject: Re: Mythus Database
> >
> > Ken Kitowski wrote:
> > >
> > > If you are interested, I have a friend who owns something
> > > called the "Microsov Access Developers Kit" (or something
> > > like that). Retail price is approximately $1500. The
> > > upshot of this thing is that it includes a MS Access
> > > run^me which can be distributed with your MS Access
> > > data les royalty free. While it doesn't let you all of
> > > the program creaôn things that the regular access
> > > product does, it does allow you to view and work with
> > > applicaôns already developed in Access. (Plus it has
> > > the advantage of not having all of those extra MS Access
> > > windows in the background when your app is running...or so
> > > I am told). I would be happy to re-package your app, bundled
> > > with this viewer. My guess is that the viewer is quite large,
> > > but at least this would provide some sort of access to the
> > > program even if people don't have access to MS Access.
> >
> > Sure. I don't know how it works with forms and queries though. The
> > forms are the coolest part and they are dependant on the queries that
> > join tables together and do calculaôns for some minor automaôn.
>
> The product is called the Microsov Access Developer's Toolkit (ADT).
> I have just started playing around with it. It does indeed work
> with forms and queries. The ADT is like a version of MS Access on
> steroids! But the part of it that we are interested in the
> run^me viewer that comes with it. The run^me viewer lets you use
> everything you can create in MS Access. For example, you can see
> and use forms in the viewer (lling them in and having associated
> code run), but you cannot create forms in the viewer. It is
> preky cool.
>
> Basically, what you do is run a program that is included with the ADT.
> This program takes the Access data les for your program and creates
> a setup program for your Access program! When you run the setup
> program, it installs the viewer and your applicaôn (and does other
> nice things that setup programs normally do like crea^ng an icon in
> your start menu). You can then double click on the icon and run
> your Access program (even if you don't have Access installed).

Cool. I have 2 people with Access developer kit and another person who
is going to make a Visual Basic program that will use my database as
data.

Be warned though, The database gets beker whenever I have ^me to work
on it. So you could get an update that might not work with the old
version. The copy you have has many bugs that prevent successful
data-entry, mostly in the K/S areas (A bad relaônship). I also added
many combo-boxes that generate lists that get looked up in the related
table to avoid data-validaôn hassles over mine and your typos.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 13:21:51 -0500

Subject: Re: OK, back to the game...then

> Who has converted basic AD&D systems into Mythus stu?
Mike Phillips coverted AD&D to Myhtus Prime a while back. Its up on his
web site along with conversions of other game systems, like GURPS, and
Amazing Engine.
> And how did you do it?
>
>
> is that beker, guys?
Yes, that's much beker. Now lets make nice everyone ;-)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 14:32:56 -0800
Subject: Re: GREAT T$R (TSR) BOYCOTT


--------------582E5960401

Thomas Biskup wrote:
>
> On Sun, 1 Dec 1996, Jesse Roberge wrote:
> > How about pushing a great T$R Boycok, Just like they did in the Great
> > Exi^lus boycok (Which was of much success) that was brought on by the
> > author abandoning all upgrades and tech support of Ex^lius and s^ll
> > collec^ng thousands of dollars of registraôns.
>
> Sit down a moment and think. Do you really feel that the handful of
> people on this list (and a couple of more they might know) make a
> dierence for TSR? Even *if* you'd get all the people on the list to
> boycok TSR (I'd bet that at most 10% would cooperate; I for sure won't)
> and they get some friends to do that, you *maybe* have something like 300
> people or so. And what? EVen if each of them would spend $100 a year on
> TSR products (I'd bet that the average value is actually much lower since
> you'll have more players than GM's) that would be a cut of maybe $30000.
> They won't even no^ce.

This list probably makes up less than 1% of T$R's sales. The people on this list would have very likle
power in a boycok.

A boycok booster would be massive copyright violaôns. There will be no way for T$R to keep up with
the lawsuits, or the FBI or other
copyright enforcers to arrest everyboody. The registraôn code crackers is the real muscle in the great
Exi^lus boycok. My database
combined with it's integraôn into a Visual Basic program or the MS Access Developer's Kit and the
character generater that I got from Taylor
will add some muscle to the database.

The leker nagging idea is cool. Not only would it frustrate the hell out of them, and maybe, possibly,
scare them enough to do something
towards re-establishing DJ, It would give them a chance to re-instate the DJ line and stop their uker
destrucôn before the boycok if and
ever gets enough power to kill their prots and throw them into a loss.

I've passed the truth and business and and all related messages that make T$R twice or more as evil than
they really are to my other 9 mailing
lists, the 4 major chat forums that I talk on, the Mid-Hudson Gamer's network, and all of my friends that
play RPGs, especially AD&D (most of
them). I'll also show o your leker nagging ideas, and hopefully not too many people will be too lazy to
atleast nag them through E-Mail.

Here's an update on the database--many errors xed, probably more to nd. I Can't send the character
generator becouse the list server will
reject the ZIP le's length.

--------------582E5960401

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--------------582E5960401-=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 17:14:01 EST


Scok Payne writes:
>> Who has converted basic AD&D systems into Mythus stu?

>Mike Phillips coverted AD&D to Myhtus Prime a while back. Its up on
>his web site along with conversions of other game systems, like GURPS,
and
>Amazing Engine.

GREAT! Now for those of us with EMAIL
only...................................

>> is that beker, guys?
>Yes, that's much beker. Now lets make nice everyone ;-)

Sarcasm rocks!
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 20:25:15 -0500

> >Mike Phillips coverted AD&D to Myhtus Prime a while back. Its up on
> >his web site along with conversions of other game systems, like GURPS,
> and
> >Amazing Engine.
>
> GREAT! Now for those of us with EMAIL
> only...................................
The AD&D info is in the Mythus-l logs somwhere :) I believe that it is in
the '94 logs, if my brain is working correctly. If you can't nd it, I'll
look in the logs and send it to you.
>
> >> is that beker, guys?
> >Yes, that's much beker. Now lets make nice everyone ;-)
>
> Sarcasm rocks!
Sarcasm is always a great thing, isn't it.

Scok Payne
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 00:52:21 EST


>>The AD&D info is in the Mythus-l logs somwhere :) I believe that it is
in
the '94 logs, if my brain is working correctly. If you can't nd it,
I'll
look in the logs and send it to you.<<

Groovy.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 03:57:28 -0400
Subject: And now for something completely dierent...

> Here's an update on the database--many errors xed, probably more to nd. I Can't send the character
generator becouse the list server will
> reject the ZIP le's length.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------->
> Name: MYTHCHAR.ZIP
> Part 1.2 Type: Zip Compressed Data
> (applicaôn/x-zip-compressed)

can you direct mail me the character generator ?? If it's not super huge
I may be able to add it to some mythus pages I'm building for my site
and the generator I have right now hates me :(

Keith
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 08:31:08 -0800
Subject: Database

Sorry Jesse - I do not have your e-mail here at work. I have all of the
armor in a datatable and will have the weapons done this week. I will
send you a copy of the data soon for you to add to your database.
Spells I have in an Excel spreadsheet at home. I have all of the spells
in and sorted - just need to add duraôns and descripôns. Problem
is, I am working in Access95. I can get all of the data into excel
spreadsheets if you have excel. Interested?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 08:53:58 -0600

Stainton" at Dec 16, 96 05:14:01 pm

> GREAT! Now for those of us with EMAIL
> only...................................

If you send the following message to agora@info.lanic.utexas.edu

help

You can nd out how to get web pages sent to you directly via
e-mail. Its kind of fun, but don't ask for too many at once and
they will only send les that are less than 5000 lines, so you
can't get uuencoded pictures and such.

Enjoy!

Dan
Minion of Greg.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 09:00:29 -0600
Subject: Re: FAQ creaôn/ARIA-Mythus Conversion
In-Reply-To: <32B4EF19.F4B@acsu.bualo.edu> from "Jesse" at Dec 16,
96 01:41:29 am

Jesse spake thusly:
> However, I am thinking of working up some ARIA-Mythus conversion notes
> over the months I'm in Europe... :P

I converted the Persona Creaôn Outline avaliable on the ARIA/LUG
web page to Mythus if anyone wants it. I think the original author
may want to have a say so I'll need to contact him before mailing it
out.

Dan.
Minion of Greg.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 09:01:43 -0600

Stainton" at Dec 14, 96 01:04:50 pm

> You got that right about this not being the place to post it, try the
> Greyhawk List.

Do you know what the address of the Greyhawk list is? I'd love to
join it.

Dan
Minion of Greg
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 10:50:30 -0500

> Jesse spake thusly:
> > However, I am thinking of working up some ARIA-Mythus conversion notes
> > over the months I'm in Europe... :P
>
> I converted the Persona Creaôn Outline avaliable on the ARIA/LUG
> web page to Mythus if anyone wants it. I think the original author
> may want to have a say so I'll need to contact him before mailing it
> out.
>
> Dan.
> Minion of Greg.
>
Hello,

This is the original author (well, as original as taking the stu in
ARIA and puing it in HTML format :). Go ahead and post the Mythus
conversions. I would like to see them as I am s^ll struggling with
ARIA.

BTW, I have also obtained a recent copy of HarnMaster (2nd Ediôn).
This also is strikingly similiar to ARIA and Mythus.

Larry
=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+
There are men too gentle to live among wolves : werebear@^r.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 11:59:19 +0000

In-Reply-To: <m0va17Z-000AGoC@Uucp1.mcs.net>

On Tue, 17 Dec 1996, Dan Williamson wrote:

> Jesse spake thusly:
> > However, I am thinking of working up some ARIA-Mythus conversion notes
> > over the months I'm in Europe... :P
>
> I converted the Persona Creaôn Outline avaliable on the ARIA/LUG
> web page to Mythus if anyone wants it. I think the original author
> may want to have a say so I'll need to contact him before mailing it
> out.

As a reminder, I am willing to put anything Mythus-related that I don't
consider of dubious legality up on my pages, so...

If you don't have a Web site, but you have Mythus info you want on one,
contact me via e-mail, and we'll work it out :-) (Diko if you maintain a
site, then discover you can't keep it around...)

As an aside: If anyone saved the HTML version of the language ar^cle,
please contact me!

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:06:27 -0500
Subject: Who wants new spells?

To All:

I had decided to convert the spells out of ARDUIN GRIMOIRE for the use
with MYTHUS. However, aver looking at the spell list, I saw it to be a
large undertaking. I will do it if there is enough people interested in
the spells. If I get 10% of this list to respond favorable to the idea,
I will do the work. I will have them placed on someone's web page. Since
I already spoke to Mike Phillips about the spells rst, I will let him
have rst crack at the spells.

Because I was thinking of doing the work, I decided to get in contact
with the author of the game(ARDUIN GRIMOIRE). In my search, I found the
auther(David A. Hargrave) had died in 1989. I am s^ll looking for the
holders of the copyright to ask for permission to convert the spells.

By the way, I am also work on a Forester as well. I will let you know
the "whens" and "wheres" when I have completed the vocaôn.

=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 12:23:42 -0800
Subject: Re: Who wants new spells?

Mike Wikek wrote:
>
> To All:
>
> I had decided to convert the spells out of ARDUIN GRIMOIRE for the use
> with MYTHUS. However, aver looking at the spell list, I saw it to be a
> large undertaking. I will do it if there is enough people interested in
> the spells. If I get 10% of this list to respond favorable to the idea,
> I will do the work. I will have them placed on someone's web page. Since
> I already spoke to Mike Phillips about the spells rst, I will let him
> have rst crack at the spells.
>
> Because I was thinking of doing the work, I decided to get in contact
> with the author of the game(ARDUIN GRIMOIRE). In my search, I found the
> auther(David A. Hargrave) had died in 1989. I am s^ll looking for the
> holders of the copyright to ask for permission to convert the spells.
>
> By the way, I am also work on a Forester as well. I will let you know
> the "whens" and "wheres" when I have completed the vocaôn.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------> DISCLAIMER: All that I write is my own opinion, and my opinion may not
> be the opinion of my school or electronic courier. For that maker, it
> may not be your opinion, but deal with it.

One of his co-writers rehashed the product and produced two manuals for
the game. In the process, he totally changed the system and made the
books two useless pieces of drivel. Since he has published these I am
sure he holds copyright and interest in the material. If anyone knows
where they s^ll have copies of the original Grimoires I would be
interested in nding them.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 15:11:42 -0600
Subject: Re: A new criker!
In-Reply-To: <m0vYhLY-0001AWC@widomaker.com> from "Scok Payne" at Dec 13,
96 06:44:37 pm

Scok Payne Intoned:
> This sis a very powerful creature I'm going to use as a major villain in my
> campaign.
>
> Syvan

<snip>

Hey Scok ever play the Palladium RPG or look through the Rivs Conversion
Book? Oh and I would hardly call it a 'Criker'. That thing's dangerous!
Good job, I really like it and I might even use it as a major baddie in my
current campaign. Heh, heh.

I think the Royal House of Kitarn just got a new 'advisor'. Insert seriously
evil grin here.

Dan
Minion of Greg
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 19:25:01 EST

Mike Wikek wrote:

> I will do it if there is enough people interested in the spells. If I
get 10% of this >list to respond favorable to the idea, I will do the
work. I will have them placed >on someone's web page.

Mike,
I'd be interested in anything you might want to show the list.
That's 1.
10% of this list? that's like 26 people.........
I haven't seen that many dierent email addresses on here in quite a
while.......
Good luck.

Can I vote twice?

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 17:51:56 -0800

At 07:25 PM 12/17/96 EST, Christopher R Stainton wrote:
>Mike Wikek wrote:
>
>> I will do it if there is enough people interested in the spells. If I
>get 10% of this >list to respond favorable to the idea, I will do the
>work. I will have them placed >on someone's web page.
>
>Mike,
>I'd be interested in anything you might want to show the list.
>That's 1.
>10% of this list? that's like 26 people.........
>I haven't seen that many dierent email addresses on here in quite a
>while.......
>Good luck.
>
>Can I vote twice?
>
>Chris

Is there anyone on the list that has a problem with anything
being posted which concerns Mythus? If you can't handle or
if your email explodes on binaries please speak up! If not,
I'd recommend sending rst and worrying later. Send away!

Todd South
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 21:20:07 -0800

From: rancour <rancour@MAINSERVER.DISCOVLAND.NET>
Organizaôn: Discoveryland Mul^media Inc.

>
> Mike Wikek wrote:
>
> > I will do it if there is enough people interested in the spells. If I
> get 10% of this >list to respond favorable to the idea, I will do the
> work. I will have them placed >on someone's web page.
>

I'm denitely interested. The more the beker.

-Serge
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 01:35:24 -0400

Mike Wikek wrote:
>
> To All:
>
> I had decided to convert the spells out of ARDUIN GRIMOIRE for the use
> have rst crack at the spells.

I'd like a copy of that as well as about 5 of the players in my game :)
we've been compiling stu for mythus now for years and we've goken a
fair amount stashed away in binders.. and soon to be html-ized.

Keith
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 01:00:30 -0500
Subject: More on converted spells

To All:

Keep in mind that ARDUIN GRIMOIRE(AG) spells tend to be more powerful
than there D&D or MYTHUS counter parts. For example, "Arrows of Slaying"
is a second or third level spell. If the saving throw is not made the
character hit is died. If the saving throw is made then the charater
only takes 1d4+1 points of damage.

I typically only hand out a few AG spells and on scrolls. I treat AG
spells as ar^facts and a lost ancient arcane magic.

As you can tell, AG was a turbo charged version of D&D. Just a note to
all. If you do not have access to a web browser and only have e-mail, I
will send a copy to you. Again, If there is enough interest. The count
is a 7 right now.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 00:44:59 -0600
From: Gregory Tims <heimdal@MYMAIL.NET>
Subject: Re: More on converted spells

------ =_NextPart_000_01BBEC7C.B3A2A060

Count me as number 8. Just as a note, some of the Arduin spells are a =
likle to powerful. I would suggest not conver^ng them straight over =
without some revision.

---------From: Mike Wikek[SMTP:wikek@SUNTAN.ENG.USF.EDU]
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 1996 12:00 AM
Subject: More on converted spells

To All:

Keep in mind that ARDUIN GRIMOIRE(AG) spells tend to be more powerful
than there D&D or MYTHUS counter parts. For example, "Arrows of Slaying"
is a second or third level spell. If the saving throw is not made the
character hit is died. If the saving throw is made then the charater
only takes 1d4+1 points of damage.

I typically only hand out a few AG spells and on scrolls. I treat AG
spells as ar^facts and a lost ancient arcane magic.

As you can tell, AG was a turbo charged version of D&D. Just a note to
all. If you do not have access to a web browser and only have e-mail, I
will send a copy to you. Again, If there is enough interest. The count
is a 7 right now.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--Mike Wikek |"Democracy isn't just the best form of governUSF engineering student |ment; It's the only one even remotely worth a
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--DISCLAIMER: All that I write is my own opinion, and my opinion may not

------ =_NextPart_000_01BBEC7C.B3A2A060

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------ =_NextPart_000_01BBEC7C.B3A2A060-=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 01:02:19 -0600
Subject: ARDUIN GRIMOIRE

Did I say that I wanted to see the spell conversions? Well...if I
didn't..I'm saying it now. I'd love to see them.

Wayne Westphalen

phalen@concentric.net(home)
or
WWestphalen@Radisson.com (work)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 09:25:11 +0100
From: "Peter H. Jensen" <met_pete@POST3.TELE.DK>

From Peter Hxjbjerg Jensen
Email: met_pete@post3.tele.dk

I'm always interested in stu that can help adding some variaôn to the
game.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 08:10:10 -0600

Count me in, as the JM of our group I represent 5 people... I'd like to
see that list of spells...
--------------------------------------------------------------Jason Bilbrey
jbilb682@uwsp.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------->
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 09:18:26 -0500

Aye! The more magicks, the beker :)

Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 09:29:28 -0500
Reply-To: tbandy@cyberportal.net

>
> Mike Wikek wrote:
>
> > I will do it if there is enough people interested in the spells. If I
> get 10% of this >list to respond favorable to the idea, I will do the
> work. I will have them placed >on someone's web page.
>
> Mike,

I would like to add my voice to those interested in seeing your
conversions...anbd anything else you'd like us to see.

(Lurker mode re-enabled)
Traki
Tracy A. Bandy tbandy@cyberportal.net
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 09:56:21 -0500
Subject: Re: A new criker!

> Hey Scok ever play the Palladium RPG or look through the Rivs
Conversion
> Book? Oh and I would hardly call it a 'Criker'. That thing's
dangerous!
> Good job, I really like it and I might even use it as a major baddie in
my
> current campaign. Heh, heh.
Yes, that is the current campaign going on over here, ^ll I convert the
poor souls to the only "true" RPG Dnagerous Journeys. When I was crea^ng
it, I only used the base descripôn for them to give me a base idea of the
creature. I also added some depth to the descripôn that Palladium didn't
have, so it would more easily t into any campaign and not just
Palladium's home world. I call it a criker to allay the fears of my
players then throw 'em for a loop with something this powerful.
> I think the Royal House of Kitarn just got a new 'advisor'. Insert
seriously
> evil grin here.
>
> Dan
> Minion of Greg
Scok Payne
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 11:47:27 +0000
Subject: Re: Database

yes send me one also.

Thanks Randy
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 17:38:16 -0500
Subject: Dangerous Ideas Con^nues

Well, for all those people who have been wondering about it, Dangerous
Ideas is s^ll going to be produced. I am the new editor, taking over DI
from Jesse Gris. So all of you people out there send me submissions so
I can con^nue this helpful resource for the Dangerous Journeys faithful.
All those who sent Jesse submissions, no need to fear, hes digging up the
les to send to me, so hopefully I'll be able to nish DI#6 within the
next couple of months. So send me submissions so I can start this thing up
again.
Scok Payne
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 08:57:06 -0400
In-Reply-To: <01BBEC7C.B38A3660@Cust31.Max1.Kansas-City.MO.MS.UU.NET>

>As you can tell, AG was a turbo charged version of D&D. Just a note to
>all. If you do not have access to a web browser and only have e-mail, I
>will send a copy to you. Again, If there is enough interest. The count
>is a 7 right now.

Add one more...

Charles Hagenbuch | hkp://wso.williams.edu/~chagenbu
00cjh@williams.edu | "Ah, Venice" -Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 21:05:28 -0500

< have rst crack at the spells. >>

Count me in...

Bill
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 08:20:55 +0200
From: Ari Pulliainen <arpullia@OSO1.OSO.OAMK.FI>


On Wed, 18 Dec 1996, William A Helm wrote:

> < > with MYTHUS. However, aver looking at the spell list, I saw it to be a
> > large undertaking. I will do it if there is enough people interested in
> > the spells. If I get 10% of this list to respond favorable to the idea,
> > I will do the work. I will have them placed on someone's web page. Since
> > I already spoke to Mike Phillips about the spells rst, I will let him
> > have rst crack at the spells. >>
>
>
> Count me in...
>
> Bill
>

Count me in too :)

Ari
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 07:42:54 -0800

Ari Pulliainen wrote:
>
> On Wed, 18 Dec 1996, William A Helm wrote:
>
> > < > > with MYTHUS. However, aver looking at the spell list, I saw it to be a
> > > large undertaking. I will do it if there is enough people interested in
> > > the spells. If I get 10% of this list to respond favorable to the idea,
> > > I will do the work. I will have them placed on someone's web page. Since
> > > I already spoke to Mike Phillips about the spells rst, I will let him
> > > have rst crack at the spells. >>

The Arduin Grimoire was released in two volumes as The Compleat Arduin
by Mark Schynert. Copyright Grimoire Games, PO Box 2054, Fremont,
California 94536. If you wish a reply include a self addressed stamped
envelope. The book was published by them in 1992 so the address may not
be good any longer.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 18:20:56 -0500


>
> The Arduin Grimoire was released in two volumes as The Compleat Arduin
> by Mark Schynert. Copyright Grimoire Games, PO Box 2054, Fremont,
> California 94536. If you wish a reply include a self addressed stamped
> envelope. The book was published by them in 1992 so the address may not
> be good any longer.

Thanks for the informaôn. I will have to fallow up on this.

Thanks again.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 18:45:43 -0500
Subject: The ARDUIN GRIMOIRE spell conversion

To All,
The total of people that are interested in the ARDUIN GRIMOIRE is 16.
Just ten more of you.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 19:23:22 -0500
Subject: Re: The ARDUIN GRIMOIRE spell conversion
In-Reply-To: <32B9D3A7.D3C@suntan.eng.usf.edu>

> To All,
> The total of people that are interested in the ARDUIN GRIMOIRE is 16.
> Just ten more of you.

Oh for crying out loud. Who -doesn't- want to see this? Count me in, just
so this can get over with.

Jesse
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 20:50:13 -0700
From: Gary Spechko <spechko@NUCLEUS.COM>
Subject: Re: Dangerous Ideas Con^nues

At 05:38 PM 12/18/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Well, for all those people who have been wondering about it, Dangerous
>Ideas is s^ll going to be produced. I am the new editor, taking over DI
>from Jesse Gris. So all of you people out there send me submissions so
>I can con^nue this helpful resource for the Dangerous Journeys faithful.
>All those who sent Jesse submissions, no need to fear, hes digging up the
>les to send to me, so hopefully I'll be able to nish DI#6 within the
>next couple of months. So send me submissions so I can start this thing up
>again.

I have yet another batch of toned down vocaôns for people who want to play
in less high-powered campaings (I think this batch is at 112 points instead
of 248). I'll send em when I get a chance... December is a really bad month
for me to work on extra-curricular stu.

Take care,
Gary
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 21:35:45 -0800

Count me in, too.

Alan Zabaro

Mike Wikek wrote:
>
> To All:
>[...]
> As you can tell, AG was a turbo charged version of D&D. Just a note to
> all. If you do not have access to a web browser and only have e-mail, I
> will send a copy to you. Again, If there is enough interest. The count
> is a 7 right now.

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 03:21:36 EST

Jesse T Gris writes:

>Oh for crying out loud. Who -doesn't- want to see this? Count me in,
>just so this can get over with.

Ummm.....................256 - 16 = 240 people?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 03:21:36 EST

Mike Wikek writes:
>To All,
> The total of people that are interested in the ARDUIN GRIMOIRE
>is 16.
>Just ten more of you.

Hi!
My name is John doe, and I'm using Chris' email address, count me in too.

John "the Man" Doe

PS sorry Mike, just had to try to get a 2nd vote in
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 17:39:08 +0100
From: Leif-Magnus Jensen <leif-mj@ONLINE.NO>

>To All,

And another.....
Leif-Magnus Jensen
"In defeat, malice. In victory, revenge."
I,Claudius
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 17:56:28 +0100
Subject: ARDUIN GRIMOIRE spell conversion

>To All,
Count me in also !
Alain

| |
*O* |
/ \ |
/ \ |
/_O _\ | JOYEUX NOEL !!!
/* \ |
/ *O \ | MERRY CHRISTMAS !!!
/_O * _\ |
/* * \ | SEASON GREETINGS !!!
/ * * \ |
/ O * \ |
/_____ *_____\ |
|_| |
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 16:12:16 -0800
X-To: "Peter H. Jensen" <met_pete@post3.tele.dk>

Peter H. Jensen wrote:
>
> Hey
>
> I have been looking a likle on your database and i would like to say that
> you have done a really
> nice peace of work.

Thanks. Did you see Taylor's database yet?

> I have considered using it for my own game session, not during the session
> (not because of the database
> but because I refuse to use my computer during games)

I didn't inted it to be used during gaming unless you're just looking up informaôn.

but when the players are making their HP's,
> there is just one small problem. In order for me to use it this way i'll
> need a way
> to write the data entered for one HP's out to my printer. It might be a
> good idea to make a report that
> can do this.

I'm going to work on the reports aver I run out of ideas for the tables and the forms and all the bugs that
I know of now and nd in the
future are xed.

> Another suggesôn I have, haven't really anything to do with Mythus, but
> it would be nice if the HP's data
> was extended to include an idenêr for a par^cular gaming group, this
> way one would be able to make
> queries on a group (again this is because i would like to print out
> HP'sheets, and i am lazy, if I am able
> to print out for an en^re group at once i prefer that in stead of prin^ng
> the sheets one by one).

That's a good idea. I'll add a table for group informaôn and link it to the character table.

> You might want to add a version number to you database in the Database
> properês, so that one can check
> if the version just downloaded is never than the one alreay on the
> computer.

That's a good idea, since I'm alsways upda^ng and debugging.

> If you know of any one designing an interface to the database with
> Microsov Visual C++ (16 or 32 bits), I
> would be happy to help out wri^ng som modules to it.

Nothing with C++. I know people who want to use Visual basic and the MS Acess Developer's Kit. It
appears from the responses, the the
developer's kit is more suitable.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 16:28:45 -0800
Subject: Re: ARDUIN GRIMOIRE spell conversion

>
> >To All,
> > The total of people that are interested in the ARDUIN GRIMOIRE is 16.
> >Just ten more of you.
> Count me in also !

I'd like to check it out also.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 16:35:27 -0800

>
> Sorry Jesse - I do not have your e-mail here at work. I have all of the
> armor in a datatable and will have the weapons done this week. I will
> send you a copy of the data soon for you to add to your database.
> Spells I have in an Excel spreadsheet at home. I have all of the spells
> in and sorted - just need to add duraôns and descripôns. Problem
> is, I am working in Access95. I can get all of the data into excel
> spreadsheets if you have excel. Interested?

Sure. If you can save the database for the win 3.x version, that would be beker. I don't
have conveinent access to Excel. It's on the presentaôn machine that is almost never
available.

Did you get may latest update/bugx version of the database? I won't be able to work on
it un^l the end of january (4 weeks) since the school is closed for christmas break.

Did you get the weapons, armor, and equipment from the main mythus book or the GM screen's
reference book. The reference book has newer, improved, more error free tables in it, and
I built by database around that. If not, I can s^ll most likely use your stu.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 03:31:23 -0500

I'm interested.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 14:40:42 +0200
In-Reply-To: <32B6E123.6F01@suntan.eng.usf.edu> from "Mike Wikek" at Dec 17,

96 01:06:27 pm

> To All:
>
> Because I was thinking of doing the work, I decided to get in contact
> with the author of the game(ARDUIN GRIMOIRE). In my search, I found the
> auther(David A. Hargrave) had died in 1989. I am s^ll looking for the
> holders of the copyright to ask for permission to convert the spells.

I don't even know what Arduin Grimoire is, but I always vote for
Mythus :) (More Mythus Stu can't be worse than none...)

Kautsu
PS: Am I among those few emails no^ced :)
Pyydysmaenê 19
20660 LITTOINEN
FINLAND
------------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 14:50:36 +0200
Subject: Merry Christmast

This is my last message before Christmast and maybe New Year, due
very cold weather (Here in Finland, winter naly came...) preven^ng
cycling to the University of Turku (where my email account lies; I don't
have modem :( and Christmast vacaôn.

Merry Christmast
and
Prosperous New Year. (For Mythus at least...)

T: Kautsu
PS: I'd like to see more rules claricaôns, modicaôns and opôns
during next year. I'll also try to batch something out :)

Pyydysmaenê 19
20660 LITTOINEN
FINLAND
------------------------------------------------------------------------=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 12:42:36 +0100

In-Reply-To: <32B32B18.4A7@mhv.net>

On Sat, 14 Dec 1996, Jesse Roberge wrote:
> The leker nagging idea is cool. Not only would it frustrate the hell
> out of them, and maybe, possibly, scare them enough to do something
> towards re-establishing DJ, It would give them a chance to re-instate
> the DJ line and stop their uker destrucôn before the boycok if and
> ever gets enough power to kill their prots and throw them into a loss.
[...]
> I'll also show o your leker nagging ideas, and
> hopefully not too many people will be too lazy to atleast nag them
> through E-Mail.

Sending lekers by email really does not accomplish much. The TSR
representa^ves on Usenet have stressed again and again that you only have
a decent chance of being heard if you write snail mail lekers. That's
also the main problem with such acôns... most people are just too lazy
to sit down and writze a real leker. As long as there is not a no^cable
facôn of people doing this there is obviously (from TSR's POV) not
enough interest in the game. Finito.


Thomas.

P.S.: I heard on the Traveller Mailing list that TSR layed o 24
employees on friday. This coupled with another number of things
happening at TSR seems to indicate that they might be in some nancial
trouble (their 1997 schedule is seriously scaled down compared to the
years before and I heard that they sold their oce buildings and are
paying rent for them).

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 08:44:37 -0500

>
>P.S.: I heard on the Traveller Mailing list that TSR layed o 24
>employees on friday. This coupled with another number of things
>happening at TSR seems to indicate that they might be in some nancial
>trouble (their 1997 schedule is seriously scaled down compared to the
>years before and I heard that they sold their oce buildings and are
>paying rent for them).

Yup. David Wise, Steve Miller, and a few other people got the axe. Dunno
if the exact number is right, since White Wolf got a similar number of
people axed.

The oce building rumor is true. LW sold the building to Keenan Prin^ng
a while back, and perhaps a few departments as well.

The scaling down doesn't surprise me. TSR has been releasing a volume of
items in a ^me when the RPG market is sov. It's kind of like what
happened to Marvel a few years ago--too much volume, not enough sales or
quality.

=======================================================================
=======================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 09:32:39 -0600

Jesse Roberge wrote:
>
> Taylor Walston wrote:
> >
> > Sorry Jesse - I do not have your e-mail here at work. I have all of the
> > armor in a datatable and will have the weapons done this week. I will
> > send you a copy of the data soon for you to add to your database.
> > Spells I have in an Excel spreadsheet at home. I have all of the spells
> > in and sorted - just need to add duraôns and descripôns. Problem
> > is, I am working in Access95. I can get all of the data into excel
> > spreadsheets if you have excel. Interested?
>
> Sure. If you can save the database for the win 3.x version, that would be beker. I don't
> have conveinent access to Excel. It's on the presentaôn machine that is almost never
> available.
>
> Did you get may latest update/bugx version of the database? I won't be able to work on
> it un^l the end of january (4 weeks) since the school is closed for christmas break.
>
> Did you get the weapons, armor, and equipment from the main mythus book or the GM screen's
> reference book. The reference book has newer, improved, more error free tables in it, and
> I built by database around that. If not, I can s^ll most likely use your stu.
Got it out of the DM screen reference book. I am also working on the
spells over Christmas break. Have all of them in an Excel spreadsheet
and need to transfer into Access. Then I need to key in the per^nent
informaôn like duraôn, etc...

I can save the le as an Access 2.0 but I think it will be read only.
Do you have access (: to another spreadsheet? If you take the
informaôn in a spreadsheet you can reorder the columns and just paste
the informaôn into your database. I could do that from here but that
would cause a problem with all of the changes you are making in the
interim.

The le I sent you for the character generator is not mine. My
database is in just a straight table format at this ^me. I am probably
going to shamelessly rob from yours or just use it once you get it to a
working point. Anyhow, get back to me when you get back to school. I
am o work un^l Jan 6 and hope to have plenty of ^me to work on this.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 20:59:56 -0500

DAMN!

This message was supposed to be sent to the Mythus-L list, not Mike alone.
Mike seems to have the "don't respond to the list" disease that Rob Kuntz
has on GreyTALK. Grrr! I hate that! Just no^ced now.

======================================
>Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 06:05:49 -0500
>To: Mike Phillips <mike@LAWLIB.WM.EDU>
>From: "John R. Troy" <johntroy@âc.net>
>Subject: Re: "Evening Odds"
>
>At 11:46 PM 12/14/96 +0000, you wrote:
>>Akribuôns restored aver a quick poke through the logles...
>>
>>On Sat, 14 Dec 1996, Prince O. Darkness wrote:
>>> Chris Stainton (kappaabz@juno.com) wrote:
>>> > Sean Reynolds (TSRInc@AOL.COM) wrote:
>>> > >I doubt this is really the right place to discuss this, but of you
>>> > >that have read EGG's Gord story in the Eternal Champion collecôn,
do you
>>> > >think the story was badly edited? I caught quite a few errors in it
that
>>> > >I thought should have been easily caught and corrected.
>>> >
>>> > You got that right about this not being the place to post it, try the
>>> > Greyhawk List.
>>>
>>> You must've not been around here long. In the past, we've discussed
>>> other projects by the authors of DJ, including the Gord the Rogue books
and
>>> some of the things Dave's doing over at Mercy Studios. We're not quite so
>>> formal as all that around here.
>>
>>I would make the argument that Gord *is* relevant. Yea, e'en though he
>>began life on Greyhawk as an orphaned child, he became a traveller who
>>lev the AD&D Universe (of it's planes and such) behind. At the end of
>>Dance of Demons, Gord is Rex Felis (presumably in Phaeree), Leda is Queen
>>of the "Shadowrealm", and Gellor is Demiurge of Hy Brazeal. Gord & Leda
>>are wed in a ceremony akended by the ve kings of Avillon (Albion,
>>Caledonia, Cymru, Hybernia, and Lyonesse), among others. In fact, the
>>name "Yarth" rears its head, a world-name that shows up more than once in
>>the DJ novels too.
>>
>>Oh yes, and in Night Arrant, Gord and Chert cross path with "Zenobia of
>>Aerth".
>>
>>I second our resident devil, given Gord's creator and Gord's penchant for
>>interdimensional heroism, a new story by him *would* be rather on topic.
>

>Save that all those worlds have nothing to do with the DJ created worlds,
except for in name. Hy Brazeal, Avillonia, etc, can be found on several
parallels, and Gary uses Yarth and Aerth and other names more than one
^me. Did you read his statements in the various lekers I posted a few
months ago?
=================================

As far as "Evening Odds" edi^ng goes... yeah, if you look at it, there do
seem to be problems. But I akribute that to the editor, who is supposed
to do his job with copy edi^ng, and when you pay 14.99 for a book, it does
shadow it a bit. It's hard for me to no^ce as I read quickly and my mind
tends to "skip over" bad grammar unless it's /very/ bad. I don't blame
Gary for this, since it's nearly impossible to judge one's own work, as one
skips over mistakes of their own unconciously.

Grammar, edi^ng, and the like have suered due to a lack of educaôn as
well as more pressure from our society to get things out yesterday. That,
and the near instantanious communicaôn of the Internet all contribute to
the problem. We need to get beker edi^ng techniques in all walks of
life. TSR, White Wolf, and other gaming companies are just suering from
this stu like all other publishers. Beker educaôn and dillegence is
the key.

Sean, yeah, this is an appropriate place to menôn it, but don't assume
all DJ players are automa^c Gygax conneseurs. Some wouldn't care if he
wasn't involved in a TSR revival, for instance. They /do/ like the game
for more than the fact that Gary wrote it. But the point about posing the
quesôn to GreyTALK was valid, since Gord was once there.

=======================================================================
=======================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 01:15:42 -0500

I need to transfer service from this list to a dierent account. Does
anyone have the address and procedures handy. Lost mine to a drive crash
last year.

Thx.

Rick C.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 13:34:02 +1300
Subject: Re: Transfer

>I need to transfer service from this list to a dierent account. Does
>anyone have the address and procedures handy. Lost mine to a drive crash
>last year.
>
>Thx.
>Rick C.

Hi Rick

I think you have to unsubscribe from the old account then resubscribe from
the new. Send e-mail from your old address to <LISTSERV@BROWNVM.brown.edu>
with:

signo Mythus-L Richard Crook

as the body of the text. Then send e-mail from your old address to
<LISTSERV@BROWNVM.brown.edu> with:

subscribe Mythus-L Richard Crook

as the body of the text. (And the subject as well if you like.) Hope this
is helpful -- and that it works !

Malcolm
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 10:07:00 +0900
From: Marco Corbella <ar08521@FA.GEIDAI.AC.JP>
Subject: Re: Merry Christmast

MERRY CHRISTMAST AND HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYBODY FROM JAPAN.
Bye, Marco.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 22:47:01 -0800
Subject: Christmas Wishes
X-To: Dark Conspiracy List <darkconspiracy@mpgn.com>

To All:

Merry Christmas, and have a Happy New Year! :-)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 15:03:01 +0100
Subject: Re: Do what is needed.

In-Reply-To: <32B37942.53E2@suntan.eng.usf.edu>

On Sat, 14 Dec 1996, Mike Wikek wrote:
> Thomas Biskup wrote:
> > All these boycok ideas are nonsense and very childish. If you are
> > unhappy with TSR take the ^me to sit down and write a reasonable leker
> > to their customers support. Then maybe you'll be no^ced.
> Boycoing is not "nonsense and childish."

Ok, I should have made my point clearer (you do this for me in your
pos^ng): believing that a boycot by the couple of hundred of people on
this list has any eect on TSR's policies is IMHO childish. They are too
large to no^ce such a thing and mostly (if at all) are interested in
*helpful* cri^cism.

> That is the kind of aitude that keeps the majority of voters out of
> the vo^ng booths, and why when I cast my ballot, I am vo^ng for
> 10,000+ people. Making money is the bokom line for any prot oriented
> business. If a $30,000 statement is all that can be done, it should be
> made.

The problem simply is that there is no relaôn for the management part of
TSR between selling $30000 less in goodies and not reviving the DJ line.
The whole statement is useless and not helpful.

> However, Thomas Biskup is correct about a leker. If you do believe TSR
> is wrong then write them a paper leker. Make sure you are cordial; give
> the some demographic informaôn about yourselves as well as how much
> money you spent on them in the past. Further, make sure you tell how
> much you will spend on them in the future un^l DANGEROUS JOURNEYS(DJ)
> is re-released and supported.

That's really about the only useful thing you can do if you are unhappy
with their DJ policy. Be helpful, be polite and show that your interest
in DJ is more than the 3-minute akenôn span required to send an email.
If you want to be heard, send a snail mail leker with comments about your
way of spending money and what you would like to see to have a con^nued
interest in their products. Submit ar^cles to Dragon Magazine, send
mails, submit ar^cles, send mails, ...

OTOH I don't think that there is *any* chance to see DJ revived (in the
foreseeable future) considering that TSR seems to be having quite some
nancial problems. DJ for sure would not be the great seller we would
like it to be as fast as TSR would want it to be. From what I was told by
a TSR employee I personally know (who also was very unhappy with TSR
management) the managers oven compared the income generated by an old
product (e.g. the complete Forgoken Realms line) with a newcomer (e.g.
the income generated by Mystara in one year) and then decided to cancel a
line since it "obviously" was genera^ng less income (he guaranteed me
that he saw this happen at least once). this tells you a lot about TSR's
business ways... oh well :-(

Gree^ngs from Germany and Merry Christmas to you all!

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 15:26:03 +0100

On Sat, 14 Dec 1996, Christopher R Stainton wrote:
> The boycoing issue has been brought up countless ^mes before, and
> unforunately there isn't enough interest in DJ for the 200+ members (some
> memebers are listed twice) to make a dent. IMHO the aim should be to
> inform the public of TSR's "aitude".

People also tried this in the past and as long as you don't manage to
start such an informaôn campaign in a well-distributed magazine you are
probably out of luck. The Usenet community of roleplayers -- although it
grew a lot in the past ve years -- is s^ll only a very minor percentage
of all roleplayers. Such a campaign might be possible in ten years or so
if by then in about every household there is an Internet connecôn. Till
then I see no way to reach a suciently large percentage of the customer
base.

Another problem is that many people (personal guess: more than 90%) s^ll
won't care.

> My younger brother's 16 year old friend said to me that he had
> pictured TSR sta as guys who sit around a big table and actually PLAY
> the products they produce. He thought that they actually cared about
> gaming and gamers. Aver he read Santa's present, he no longer felt that
> way, and that they were indeed the money-grubbing vindic^ve people I
> believed them to be for quite a while now.

You have to dier a likle bit. Most of the designers at TSR (I met a
couple of them and know one quite well) *really* care about what they do.
They *do* play their products and the games produced by TSR (and other
stoo) and they *want* to have happy customers. Sadly the management part
of TSR is a dierent cup of tea. The designers basically sit in the same
boat as we do... they get assigned to projects and their only means to
express their opinion is to submit ideas to the upper crust of TSR. If

TSR doesn't like there ideas they are as much out of luck as we are.

From what I was told Dragonlance was revived *because* TSR employees
con^nued to submit proposals for the seing (and parâlly because the
books sell preky well).

S^ll the designers do care about their work and they really try their
best from what I was able to glean. Don't confuse the designers with the
managers (who at least parâlly have no relaôn to roleplaying at all).

> Just like the leker wri^ng campaign that the Greytalk list has done to
> get Greyhawk resurrected (opps.....T$R owns that word)?
> Just like the leker wri^ng campaign that the Mythus list did get Mythus
> raised (opps.....T$R owns that word, too)?

See my point above. Interest alone is not always enough. You either need
to win support within TSR for DJ or you'd need to have a nancial reason
to back it (and with DJ there sadly is *no* obvious good nancial reason
for TSR to publish it). The sad reality is that in Real Life the Good
Things(tm) don't always survive.

> That whole lawsuit T$R had was Childish (to the point of obcenity) and
> nonsense.

I wouldn't agree that it was childish (being childish for me also means to
be a likle bit removed from how real life works). It was unethical, it
was immoral, but it was a good business decision (if you take pure, cold
logic and reasoning as a measure) business-wise. The owner(s) of TSR want
to earn money, DJ *was* potenâlly dangerous compe^ôn (the name Gygax
s^ll carries a lot of weight) and thus they simply decided to stop GDW
before becoming a threat to AD&D. It's that simple. It's biker for us
and I'm very angry about it but life's not fair and probably never will
be.

> And talk about childish! How about a TSR employee who makes public
> statements that EGG had a cocaine problem, and this was 2nd or 3rd hand
> info, given to him by his propagandist employers.........ummm.......(or
> so I heard)

I again wouldn't call that childish but pure idiocy (if he didn't have any
facts and proofs to back this... I didn't follow that thread). Even if he
had any facts backing this it was s^ll very stupid (since it was not
helpful and didn't contribute anything). Even if Gygax ever had taken
drugs of any kind (I don't care if he did or not; I simply adore his work
and hope that he didn't so that he he can lead a long and happy life and
there's s^ll hope for new games produced by him) it does not have any
meaning for the lawsuit or other strange events going on at TSR.

> I even heard TSR plans to sue the writers of the Old testament because
> TSR created the Idea of Con^nual Light, so when God said, "Let there be
> light!" He is in violaôn of TSR's
> copyright...........................................;)

:-) Funny idea.

> Been the leker route......it has REALLY worked. What other
> "construc^ve" ideas would you suggest? from the tone I gather you
> s^ll purchase and play/run TSR material, right?

Yes, I s^ll purchase TSR products (a lot less than ve years ago since
quality really has suered in the past year and I mostly was interested
in Greyhawk stu and useful, generic stu), because I know that the
designer's are doing their best and some things (IMHO) are preky good. I
liked the Skills&Powers supplement since it brought AD&D a likle closer
to being generic, I liked some of there adventurers (Night Below e.g.; I
like Carl Sargent's work and believe that his work on Greyhawk was at
least as good as what was produced during Gary's ^me with TSR [*gasp*
*sacrilege*]).

Most of the ^me I don't judge companies for their nasty botches when
considering to buy a current product or not. I want to vote with my money
and if I like something and want to see more of it I buy it (since that's
about the only reasonable way to tell them that I want to see more such
stu).

All in all I'm just ^red of all those people insul^ng TSR at a whole or
the TSR designers or whomever. This is childish and will only have one
eect: they will ignore the people insul^ng them (I would do so, too)
and you'll never be heard.

Sadly right now I really see no chance for DJ being revived. TSR
obviously has nasty nancial problems (as does White Wolf; both facts are
signs that the industry in general is in trouble) and thus there probably
right now is no hope to see DJ is revived. The best I could think of is
to submit ar^cles to Dragon and Dungeon magazine. If it's of sucient
quality (and I have seen a lot of very good stu on this list; if people
just would submit it) and if ar^cles con^nue to be submiked then TSR
will have to no^ce that there is con^nuing interest in DJ. If this will
make them republish it is another quesôn.

Gree^ngs and Merry Christmas to you all!

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 01:44:30 -0800


> Got it out of the DM screen reference book. I am also working on the
> spells over Christmas break. Have all of them in an Excel spreadsheet
> and need to transfer into Access. Then I need to key in the per^nent
> informaôn like duraôn, etc...
> I can save the le as an Access 2.0 but I think it will be read only.

Try it anyway, it might work.

> Do you have access (: to another spreadsheet? If you take the
> informaôn in a spreadsheet you can reorder the columns and just paste
> the informaôn into your database. I could do that from here but that
> would cause a problem with all of the changes you are making in the
> interim.

I have reliable access to Lotus 1-2-3 for windows v5 at the college. I have MS Works at home.

> The le I sent you for the character generator is not mine. My
> database is in just a straight table format at this ^me. I am probably
> going to shamelessly rob from yours or just use it once you get it to a
> working point. Anyhow, get back to me when you get back to school. I
> am o work un^l Jan 6 and hope to have plenty of ^me to work on this.

Cool. It appears that you'll be doing half the work: the data part. If you have any design suggesôns, I'll
be glad to have them.

Merry christmas.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 01:38:41 -0600
Subject: Christmas

Well, I just wanted to say Merry Christmas to all. And please, for the
love of God, don't get pissed at me for "was^ng bandwidth". It's
Christmas...

Wayne Westphalen
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 13:19:29 -0600

In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.961224150530.205E-100000@localhost> from "Thomas
Biskup" at Dec 24, 96 03:26:03 pm

To Whom it May Concern:
There has been a lot of talk recently on the list about something
that happened years ago. For some reason, somebody has decided to dredge
up some unpleasant events in the past concerning the cancellaôn of the
DJ roleplaying system. I ask, "What is the point?" I personally think
TSR made a poor decision in cancelling the line, but it is their company,
so they are free to promote whatever products they want to. In their
early years, they had a number of role-playing games, some of which had
numerous supplements and a fair amount of enthusias^c support. I know
my rst journey into RPG's was with _Star Fronêrs_. I was
disappointed that they have since discon^nued that par^cular game, but
I don't feel the need to complain to somebody about it.
Anyway, why don't we just all agree that DJ has been killed by
TSR, for their own reasons, whether peky or legi^mate, and get on with
our lives? To be quite honest, the DJ game system has numerous aws in
it, as has been pointed out countless ^mes on this list. Our own GM has
preky much revised the en^re system with numerous "House Rules" that
make the game run much smoother than the book rules allow. Perhaps
someday, when all this unpleasantness with EGG has been smoothed out, TSR
will be able to drum up support for an alternate game system as the
interest in AD&D fades.
One thing I think TSR needs to realize is how unimportant rules
are in the enjoyment of a game, yet they con^nue to publish handbooks
and various rules supplements that bog down the system. The nice thing
about DJ is the mechanics are fairly simple. One's akempt to succeed in
performing any acôn is a straight number mul^plied by another number
based on the rela^ve diculty of the acôn. The core rules of AD&D
are very similar. However, since TSR decided to publish THREE (not one)
Player's Opôn manuals, they just made the game three ^mes more
complicated, especially for neophyte adventurers. TSR also seems to
stress that you need ALL the manuals they publish in order to enjoy a
game. Thus they have 10 dierent handbooks for each character class and
subclass, each of which contains "kits" or further subclasses.
Well, I suppose I am digressing just a likle bit. The point I
am trying to make is that TSR doesn't know quality from quan^ty and DJ
is a good system, just not the best. Perhaps somebody will be able to
publish a DJ-like system someday that will be able to avoid lawsuits.
When that happens, I am sure a lot of us will be very happy to see one of
our favorite games get the support it deserves. Un^l then, we might as
well let TSR have its fun. It won't last forever.

Thank you for your akenôn.

Malcolm E. Hays
DJ-er Extraordinaire
mhays@umr.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 14:33:00 -0600
X-To: Malcolm Hays <mhays@UMR.EDU>

Your are correct Malcolm....we probably shouldn't keep up the T$R
bashing. Some^mes it is fun though isn't it? But, on a game-related
note...do you have the "house rules" that make your JM's campaign run
more smoothly posted anywhere? Is it possible for us to take a look at
them?

I agree that DJ isn't the ul^mate in coolness. It is, however, very
close. It's the best system I've seen to date. Which systems did you
have in mind as being beker than DJ?

Wayne Westphalen


---------From: Malcolm Hays
Date: Thursday, December 26, 1996 1:19PM

To Whom it May Concern:
There has been a lot of talk recently on the list about
something
that happened years ago. For some reason, somebody has decided to
dredge
up some unpleasant events in the past concerning the cancellaôn of the
DJ roleplaying system. I ask, "What is the point?" I personally think
TSR made a poor decision in cancelling the line, but it is their
company,
so they are free to promote whatever products they want to. In their
early years, they had a number of role-playing games, some of which had
numerous supplements and a fair amount of enthusias^c support. I know
my rst journey into RPG's was with _Star Fronêrs_. I was
disappointed that they have since discon^nued that par^cular game, but
I don't feel the need to complain to somebody about it.
Anyway, why don't we just all agree that DJ has been killed by
TSR, for their own reasons, whether peky or legi^mate, and get on with
our lives? To be quite honest, the DJ game system has numerous aws in
it, as has been pointed out countless ^mes on this list. Our own GM
has
preky much revised the en^re system with numerous "House Rules" that
make the game run much smoother than the book rules allow. Perhaps
someday, when all this unpleasantness with EGG has been smoothed out,
TSR
will be able to drum up support for an alternate game system as the
interest in AD&D fades.
One thing I think TSR needs to realize is how unimportant rules
are in the enjoyment of a game, yet they con^nue to publish handbooks
and various rules supplements that bog down the system. The nice thing
about DJ is the mechanics are fairly simple. One's akempt to succeed
in
performing any acôn is a straight number mul^plied by another number
based on the rela^ve diculty of the acôn. The core rules of AD&D
are very similar. However, since TSR decided to publish THREE (not one)
Player's Opôn manuals, they just made the game three ^mes more
complicated, especially for neophyte adventurers. TSR also seems to
stress that you need ALL the manuals they publish in order to enjoy a
game. Thus they have 10 dierent handbooks for each character class
and
subclass, each of which contains "kits" or further subclasses.
Well, I suppose I am digressing just a likle bit. The point I
am trying to make is that TSR doesn't know quality from quan^ty and DJ
is a good system, just not the best. Perhaps somebody will be able to
publish a DJ-like system someday that will be able to avoid lawsuits.
When that happens, I am sure a lot of us will be very happy to see one
of
our favorite games get the support it deserves. Un^l then, we might as
well let TSR have its fun. It won't last forever.

Thank you for your akenôn.

Malcolm E. Hays
DJ-er Extraordinaire
mhays@umr.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 22:22:16 -0800
Subject: Everyone Read Me!
X-To: Dark Conspiracy List <darkconspiracy@mpgn.com>

To All:

For the purpose of brevity, I address both the MYTHUS listserv and DARK
CONSPIRACY majordomo with the same post. The informaôn is relevant to
both.

In the last several weeks, there have been those individuals that have
been sending lekers to the lists, and they had shared their aggravaôn
with TSR and Tantalus. I too am guilt of said acôn. I know how you all
feel when you look in your closets, and see that 90% of your games are
no longer supported. Consequently, My skill as a GM will be put to the
test for most of my games sport the TSR and GDW logos.

I was so red up about TSR's interrogatory that I wrote TSR a leker in
hopes to help bring support for MYTHUS. Soon, I will write Tantalus for
DARK CONSPIRACY. But, my one leker will not have the same eect as if
you all send in a leker via US mail to your respec^ve company. I have
done the hard part; I have acquired the companies addresses which I have
provided below. Please send a leker to the companies so that TSR and
Tantalus don't forget MYTHUS and DARK CONSPIRACY; be business like.
Perhaps, those with web sites might post the address for there
respec^ve game. Lastly, please do not alienate those whom we wish to
stay in contact. Enough said.

TSR, Inc. Tantalus, Inc.
ATTN: Lorraine Williams ATTN: Janet Brodhead
201 Sheridan Springs Rd. 801 Eisenhower Dr.
Lake Geneva, WI 53147 Key West, FL 33040

Thanks for your ^me.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 22:35:56 -0800
Subject: ARDUIN GRIMOIRE spells

To All:
There were 27 people that were interested in the ARDUIN GRIMOIRE spells
being converted to DJ: MYTHUS standards. Since that was 10% of the list
members, I will start working on the spells. I will do a couple at a
^me, and I'll send them to Mike Phillips. If he wants the spells, they
will be found on his web site. If he does not, I will nd some other
web site. For those that only have e-mail and no web browser, let me
know, I will e-mail mail you a copy.

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------Mike Wikek |"Democracy isn't just the best form of governUSF engineering student |ment; It's the only one even remotely worth a
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 12:24:29 -0600
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=Carlson%l=CARLSON/NACORPINTE/000C9E6B@spyder.carlson.com> from
"Westphalen, Wayne" at Dec 26,
96 02:33:00 pm

Wayne,
For those of you who are curious about our "House Rules" a mostly
complete lis^ng is located at:

hkp://www.umr.edu/~mhill/dj.html

Most of the rules concern character generaôn. We have incorporated
some GURPS rules into our campaign, using Advantages/Disadvantages as
opposed to Quirks/Counter-Quirks. Our system is en^rely point based.
The main advantage of our system is that one has full control over what
sort of HP one wants. However, it is generally a good idea to have a
concept in mind _before_ one creates an HP. The major disadvantage is
that there is no surprises for a player. Since Full Prac^ce must be
taken as an advantage, it means that a player can't really say, "Cool! I
rolled a Full Prac^ce Mage!" Also, the economic factors involved cause
most Full Prac^ôners to be rela^vely poor compared to the other HPs.
We also have modied our Combat so as to be a bit more
realis^c. There are no CT's in our system. Each acôn has a duraôn
measured in "tenths" as in tenths of a second. One person is designated
as ^me zero as determined by iniâ^ve. Each acôn is subsequently
given a ^me duraôn and added to ^me zero. Thus it provides for a
con^nuous ow of acôn during combat. I s^ll think it moves a likle
fast, but as long as we are consistent, it doesn't really maker.
Unfortunately, the creator of the DJ web page above, Mike Hill,
has been rather busy on his Master's thesis and has been unable to do his
Heka-Forging page, which is by far the most interes^ng of our House
Rules. We have managed to construct a system by which just about any
Magick Item imaginable can be created. It is a rather expensive process,
but it is also very realis^c (our group is a bunch of engineering and
science students). It is a rather straighorward process that can be
easily followed, though a calculator is highly recommended, as each step
has its own cost. Anyway, I hope Mike has enough ^me soon to set up
those rules on his web page. I think other JM's out there might like to
see them.

Well, Wayne, I hope I have answered your quesôn. Feel free to
adopt any or all of these rules to your campaign. Make any changes to
them you like. I would like to hear any suggesôns you have for
improving on them. I am sure Mike would, too.

Malcolm E. Hays
mhays@umr.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 14:11:55 -0500
Subject: Test---apologies--ignore

Sorry for the test, but things've been REAL quiet around here recently, and I
wanted to make sure I was s^ll on. Just delete me, no need to respond.

Lucifer >:}
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 14:14:00 -0600
Subject: Re: Test---apologies--ignore
X-To: "Prince O. Darkness" <Noc^fer@AOL.COM>

You're s^ll here...it's just dead. But, that's to be expected I guess.
On a brighter note...I've only got 200 pages lev to "condense" of the
1994 logs. And, I think I'm nally nding another group to JM!!
Aver an extensive hiatus from DJ. But, when you live in Omaha, what
can you expect? So, who got cool crap from Santa? I was looking for a
laser printer but the fat bas....er....well, let's just say I didn't get
one.

Oh, and I'm going to do some "monster conver^ng" to DJ from "the
systems that shall not be named" and maybe Rivs to DJ conversion would
be extra-neat....hmmm....decisions decisions.

Well, later folks....

"Villians, I say to you now....KNOCK OFF ALL THAT EVIL!!"

Wayne Westphalen
or

---------From: Prince O. Darkness
Subject: Test---apologies--ignore
Date: Monday, December 30, 1996 1:11PM

Sorry for the test, but things've been REAL quiet around here recently,
and I
wanted to make sure I was s^ll on. Just delete me, no need to respond.

Lucifer >:}
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 15:47:24 +0000
Subject: Re: Test---apologies--ignore

good, goood
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 17:51:06 +0000
Subject: Happy Hogmanay!

[For all you in Kell^c-based games, be sure to have your HPs celebrate
Hogmanay (the New Year) in appropriate fashion!]

My giv to the list, at the tag end of 1996, is this Adventure Summary:

First, some background:

I am running an Advanced Mythus game set in Hibernia, where the HPs are
all members of a FIANNA, or King's Company. The current year is AAF 996
(of course), somewhere in late fall/early winter.

As it happens, events have con^nued to transpire in Vargaard, despite the
collapse of that par^cular game as my players graduated and moved on, and
the evil ^dings predicted by Taknari have been delayed by heroic acôn
(and to ^me them beker with the year 1000!). Grandmark is s^ll intent
on recapturing Wildedge, and Wildedge is s^ll intent on staying a free
naôn.

Horaô Calvo di Padua, an agent of the Markthegn of Grandmark, has been
assigned the task of stopping arms shipments from Hibernia to Wildedge,
and he has created a merchant house based in Falcondonia to aid him. He
traced the arms shipments back to Robert Ugaine, the youngest son of the
brother of Gywdion Ugaine, the current Aethel of Munster. With some

misdirecôn, he has planted evidence accusing Robert of much worse...

Drama^s Personae:

Derby O'Brennan: a rakish warrior, fascinated by danger
MacGregor: a (PP) priest of Goibhnie, ex-patriate of Caledonia
"Sarah": a mountebank

The game opened with a simple assignment: the three HPs were assigned
the task of assembling evidence suppor^ng or denying the troubling rumor
of unusual arms producôn in the county of Munster. They were given a
safe house from which to operate.
Along the road to Limerick, the county seat, they were ambushed by a
small group of bandits, but quite handily defeated the scoundrels.
(O'Brennan got to ex his muscles a likle!)
Once they arrived in Limerick, they set themselves up in the safe
house and began planning ways of gathering informaôn.

That evening, O'Brennan made his way to the pubs frequented by
longshoreman and other dock workers (his Street-Wise Sub-Areas led him to
this), and overheard some folks complaining of their work and a drunk
sailor leing slip that he's involved in shipping weapons (Horaô,
disguised by illusion and skill, dropping broad hints in his campaign
to end the ac^vity).
O'Brennan snuck to the docks averward (followed by Horaô,
incidentally), where he commandeered a dinghy and clambered into the
dockmaster's oce from behind. (Incidentally, he's not real good at it,
and fumbled a couple rolls, and made an awful lot of noise. Fortunately,
Horaô wanted this informaôn uncovered, and 'helped' him out a likle.)
The raid on the Dockmaster's les discovered that a ship, the
_Mala_Herispedorum_, was registered to the Calvo Merchant House in
Falcondonia, and was bound for Wildedge with "supplies". Departure date
was not uncovered (the les were not organized in any reasonable manner),
and he slipped back out the way he came.

Meanwhile, "Sarah" slipped out for a round at the local pub
(discreetly shadowed by MacGregor), where she was promptly picked up by a
rather handsome nobleman (Robert Ugaine, the nephew responsible for the
arms-running). There was a confrontaôn between a smith and Robert, who,
aver paying o the smith, then proceeded to an elegant dinner and dance
with "Sarah".
When they lev, MacGregor followed the smith back to a smithy, where
several appren^ces were pulling a rather late night, turning out
arrowheads and a few swords. The smith himself was working on a suit of
armor. MacGregor, dodging the constabulary in his spying, took note of
the ac^vity and snuck back to the safehouse.
Meanwhile, "Sarah" enjoyed herself, and took the oered carriage back
to the pub (and the stranger's card). However, she slipped out of it
fairly quickly, and followed the mysterious nobleman, observing him
visi^ng a warehouse in which a number of crates and a few sheafs of

arrows were stored. She took note of this and slipped home.

Once together, they formulated a plan of acôn based on the material:
"Sarah" would visit this Robert fellow, with O'Brennan accompanying as a
personal guard. Meanwhile, MacGregor would sneak along, masked by his
Cas^ngs, and rie through the household. Some footwork was done to lay
in an elaborate masquerade.
When the visit occurred, "Sarah" had a pleasant dinner and evening of
theatre, while O'Brennan chaked with the guardsmen (learning,
interes^ngly, that Robert was spending an inordinate amount of ^me away
from home, in the evenings, with no obvious mistress or other ac^vity).
MacGregor dodged the servants and eventually found Robert's room.
Aver seing of a tracer and riing the desk, he found a secret
compartment with the real evidence (running arms to Wildedge) mixed with
evidence planted by Horaô (running arms as a cover for a non-existant
rebellion), implica^ng Robert in major treason.
Once back at the hotel, they meandered all over Limerick, hoping to
throw o anyone tailing them as they returned to their safehouse.
MacGregor also thought to detect Heka, on himself, but the tracer had been
masked (pity, that), and on the papers. As it was, "friends" of Robert
showed up the next morning as they lev, to "make them an oer they
couldn't refuse". The party was in dire straits, O'Brennan stripped of
his weapons, cross-bows pointed at them, when...
That's right, Horaô put in his fourth and nal appearance (aver
all, he wanted the inves^gators to succeed!), his own men rescuing the
HPs from a dicey situaôn.

-----------
What made this adventure par^cularly interes^ng to *me* was that
Horaô was an HP from my Grandmark campaign, and I talked with the player
a couple ^mes as we worked out his rather convoluted machinaôns.

I think I'm going to run something a likle more straighorward next ^me
:-)

-----------
And if this isn't enough of a New Year's End present, allow me to point
you to my own web page, where I've begun adding notes for this game *and*
some minor appearance improvements.

-- __+__
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 17:34:00 -0600

Subject: Aria-Mythus Conversion

Just in case I didn't say this before...A HUGE thanks to Dan Williams
for the Aria-Mythus conversion.

Wayne Westphalen

Mythus-L 1996 Log

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Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 15:31:02 +0100

Any sugges^ons/ideas/silly thoughts will be greatly greatly greatly

up by the GM, the player, or collabora^vely. Are they childhood friends?

A favorite plaything for more powerful demons and sorcerors, the

> have to do it... (discipline, dammit!)

On Tue, 9 Jan 1996, Dan T Williamson wrote:

> Thus spake Jesse

Sender: Mythus Fantasy Roleplaying Game List <MYTHUS-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>

I gure that the base Sub-Area, which everyone receives, would

goka suck that lozenge!" The Tick.

requiring rolls against it.

From: Jesse <jgris@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>

nega^on, make a temporary MENTAL Pentacle for purposes of

Sender: Mythus Fantasy Roleplaying Game List <MYTHUS-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>

a. I know exactly what you mean by "reverbera^on." I keep track of both

"Snead Ryan W" at Jan 14, 96 04:04:23 pm

Sender: Mythus Fantasy Roleplaying Game List <MYTHUS-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>

study (non-game) ^me to achieve.

> > to magick learn Arcane Magickal (and possibly Hiero-Aegyp^an if

Reply-To: Mythus Fantasy Roleplaying Game List <MYTHUS-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>

Subject: Phaeree Manual

>>to do but keep the pages in order.)

(a) Bakle with T$R cost them heaps

Subject: Re: GDW goes bust??

From: Ragnar Nicolaysen <ragnarn@TELEPOST.NO>

I want to know if regular armor can protect a character from heka-based

character for the persona.

>> Mike: Please post this reply.

>currently owned by TSR(c). The text is reprinted here without permission

She-Ra the Invincible strides condently up to the Wyrm and bonks it on

Penal^es will accrue if the vision is blocked par^ally by a helm

another one: one of my players has developed a strategy regarding Extreme

in PPM form, while being sickened by its looks...

unconcious coulden't some part of him retain faith in the healer?

If anyone is following the weather, things here in Wisconsin are RIDICULOUS.

with all the tell-tale characteris^cs of the [other Evil Objects]."

powerhouses are going to be Prists instead of Mages.

with some of the Abyss stu I worked up a couple of years back.

calculator-usage you should be able to translate that into km's per

>certain frac^on of the speed of light, existence becomes dicult

This part is easy. A 'g' is 9.8 meters/sec/sec (or 32 feet/sec/sec if

> hash out with Traveller rules.

Subject: Re: Abyss

> to make the game sound more "spacey."

noc^fer@aol.com |I am the god of kingdom come,

> thinking more on the lines of Heka-genera^ng K/S. In running a low

same are as a Fireash Cantrip. Oh well, to each his/her own.

SUMMON CHEWING GUM FORMULA (Dweomercraev, General, Grade I)

IMO, is more on the lines of low-fantasy. The Deverry quadrilogy of

From: Aran Mull <PUBACM@SAFNET.ALBANY.EDU>

Reply-To: Mythus Fantasy Roleplaying Game List <MYTHUS-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>

issues. Save it!!! Print it out!!! It is good! And useful! :) Here:

John Teske's campaign. However, it should be possible to modify the

7 71-80 Cas^ng Storage

As a general rule of thumb, refer to the Materia Costs of the Heka-Forging

which seeks to reward the establishment of a style of Heka-Forging, as

cursed, and possesses abili^es opposite to what was

Elementalists wan^ng a reball could use Create-Energy

Home page: hkp://skaro.lawlib.wm.edu/~mike/ | million of marke^ng

201 Sheridan Springs Rd.

Real Soon Now (tm).

they can release it as AD&D supplements without infringing any

"Beware all ye who go in by me"