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Contemporary Music Review

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Louis Andriessen
Online Publication Date: 01 October 2006
To cite this Article: (2006) 'Louis Andriessen', Contemporary Music Review, 25:5,
541 - 548
To link to this article: DOI: 10.1080/07494460600990646
URL: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/07494460600990646

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Contemporary Music Review

Vol. 25, Nos. 5/6, October/December 2006, pp. 541 548

Louis Andriessen

FM:

Do you still improvise on your own before composing, like I heard you do
many years ago while we were guests in Frederic Rzewskis house in Montiano?

LA:

Ive completely forgotten what I played there, but that also belongs to
improvisation! [laughs] That piece was a historical happening; I think that I
must have improvised, even though I was probably conscious that you were
secretly listeningor maybe pretending that nobody was listening. I think
either way probably played a role in what I did. If you play as if nobody is
listening, then you can try things out and look for solutions, just like a
composer, whereas if you improvise in public it is like instant composing
wherein you must directly make decisions.

FM:

But you probably knew I was downstairs reading Djuna Barnes . . . and first you
played Bach, and then it slipped into Louis . . .

LA:

That certainly wasnt from the page, it must have been from memory.

FM:

A sort of bath for your mind?

LA:

I think so, in that here at home for the last forty years, I often begin each morning
by playing a prelude and fugue from the Well Tempered Clavier, indeed as a sort
of musical gymnastic. And I realized only recently that it has had much more
importance for my composing than I have thought. And although probably
nobody else would agree, I think my big pieces are most similar to Bach.

FM:

I think that can be heard.

LA:

But I am convinced, in contrast to many other improvisers beliefs and

through my experience with many improvisers over the years, that real
improvising is doing what youve never done before.

FM:

The Derek Bailey model.

ISSN 0749-4467 (print)/ISSN 1477-2256 (online) 2006 Taylor & Francis

DOI: 10.1080/07494460600990646

542

L. Andriessen
Yes, and one of the best examples is also closer to home, Misha Mengelberg.
And he says that improvising is a way of life. That it isnt about music, but
about living. And it is also true that through my life wherein I have sat long
hours at the piano, doing a lot improvising, and also what all composers must
doreflectthat when I improvise I am very much aware of the roots from
where the music comes. I recognize the historical aspects and also things
from my more anguished musical material. And if you improvise, then you
must either develop these things or avoid them, and both are valid methods.
For instance, in these last years with singer Greetje Bijma you can hear that I
sometimes stay for a minute more or less, in a certain musical language.
Particularly because when I am playing with Greetje, and she can go with this,
or not. And if she joins in, sometimes I will then depart from the material, or
Ill just continue with it.
There are many possibilities present for each bar. And this has to do with
composing and also with the fact that what you do, you reflect on: I did this
here, or, That sounds like Messiaen. These reflections are really essential if
you have composed a lot. I think that a practicing improviser doesnt need to
worry with these considerations.

FM:

You mean if it sounds like someone else . . .

LA:

They didnt worry about these things. With the result that I think with Evan
Parker, who I find really exceptional, or Derek Bailey or Misha, dont ever
sound like anyone other than themselves.

FM:

Yes, they have their own language.

LA:

With Misha, you could say that through the sixties and seventies he was very
much inspired by Thelonius Monk. He would also give credit to Herbie
Nichols.

FM:

And also Beethoven . . .

LA:

That comes later! And if it resembles Beethoven then with Misha it begins as
irony or camp. And it probably came through a very important improviser of
the sixties here in Holland, Leo Cuypers. Leo was the first in the free jazz world
who dared to play common music.

FM:

And on two fingers!

LA:

[rapping the table with his index fingers in staccato imitation] Yes, seldom
more than two fingers! And that would come from a Viennese waltz or
resemble a tear jerker. I think for Misha and my generation, this way of playing

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LA:

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Contemporary Music Review

543

was like a breath of fresh air, because there were very strong taboos not only in
modernistic composition, but also in improvisation. Certainly in the sixties.
The so-called free jazz meant that you couldnt do anything! Such as playing
chord schemes, modal improvising or tonal playing, all this was strictly
forbidden. But the things they did were certainly taboo in the conservative
world, and were necessary so that people could find new ways of discovering
material. Of course, that stopped after a while . . . [pauses] Good subject!
Especially when speaking to you, who understands it and loves it.
FM:

Back to you. Do you still improvise when alone?

LA:

Yes, if I am in the beginning stages of new pieces, always.

FM:

To discover material, or to free your mind or . . . ?

LA:

I believe that musical invallen, events are very physical. At least in my case, if
its good, it comes from movement. As Stravinsky said, Music comes not from
thought, but from movement. A sort of musical movement. I think that for
me they both [physical and musical gestures] play a role.

FM:

A sort of action music?

LA:

Yes, and that comes from the improvisation. Returning again to Misha, who
once used the metaphor that he played in certain parts of the piano because
that was where a rat was sitting. [laughs] A rat back there in the mechanics, or
a big cluster of mice, I dont remember precisely.
And you probably remember this as wellthere was a sculptor in Italy, who
in my opinion couldnt play but would do performances on the piano,
Giuseppe Chiari. He did a sort of hand ballet. The movement was much more
important than the sound, which was of course very important for conceptual
art; that the idea superseded the auditory result.
This was also mirrored in the classical avant-garde where you would be asked
to play the piano wearing gloves for all the glissandos, or using the elbows, etc.
That was one of the ways in which modernism could free itself from the rules of
serialism, by using graphic notation, and ad libitum instructions. But I dont
think it had much influence on the culture of improvisation.

FM:

And what do you think you can reach with improvisation that you cannot
through composing? For example, Scelsi thought he could reach higher
spheres through instant composing than through composing at the table.

LA:

That can happen also, but those arent the most driving forces either for
improvising or composing. For me in the first place, it is more about very

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L. Andriessen
strong emotional, but also musically, spiritually enriching thoughts. Thats
because thoughts and feelings arent opposites, they are the same thing. A
feeling is a thought. I cant explain it any better.

FM:

With improvisation you can make a piece, for example, even if it is still loose
around the edges. And you can do that very quickly whereas with composition
the actual time to make something is much longer.

LA:

I am not sure you will get very far if you try to compare them in this way. For
me it is very important that improvisation can give a larger expansion of
certain musical aspects, but even more, it comes from the techniques on the
instrument. And there are countless examples from the repertoire whereby the
avant-garde has profited from the improviser. This is really important.
The bass clarinet as represented by Harry Sparnaay is an example. Harry
Sparnaay wouldnt have been possible if we hadnt had Willem Breuker on the
bass clarinet first. Eric Dolpy and Roland Kirk were very important
inspirations for Breuker. I am sure that what Willem did on the bass clarinet
would drive you crazy were you to attempt to notate it in a composition. You
can try it, but then Id find that a bit second-class, because (as I told you once
many years ago) if you can improvise so well and are involved with inventing
new sounds, then its crazy to ask a composer to write something using these
innovations. Itd be much more original and more authentic if you were to do
that for yourself. And above all for solo pieces.
But were you to play all those complex things with a second cellist, then you
would be entering the composers territory; for in that comes the organization
of harmony and that is very difficult with two improvisers. Just as with the
Bach suites, you are working mostly with harmony. But with another
performer, that would be practically impossible without very specific
appointments with each other, or a lot of experience. That said, I have a top
improvisation performance in my record cabinet, and it is a duo LP from
Anthony Braxton and trombonist George Lewis. While I have a very good ear,
I can assure you that, though there are always these two musicians playing
together, and very few solos, I very often could not hear if they had written it
out or if it was totally improvised. They are listening very intensively to each
other and it sounds as if they are reacting to each other on each beat. This is a
really an extreme example, because I almost always can tell if someone is
improvising or if it is predetermined.

FM:

I cant imagine that it was composed . . .

LA:

They are each very good composers, so it is really a problem with the rhythmic
unisons, etc. We should ask them! But then theyd probably pull your leg
[laughs], they are both wise guys. And that also belongs to improvising!

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FM:

With the piano, where there is little to do with color-based improvisation . . .

LA:

Yes. Color is only a part of music; that was really important in the sixties and
seventies. And I guess that musical thought comes out better on the piano as
there is limited intrinsic color. And if you are a composer (of course I havent
become an improviserthat is another profession), you need to reflect not
only over sound, but also about various combinations and development of
material. That is what composing is about. But its actually the same thing.
[pauses] This is the subject on which we should speak further, as this is
something about which I have a lot to say. And most of the improvisers dont
even worry about this problem. I think that were I to ask Evan Parker, who I
respect very highly as an improviser, for a piece for four saxophones, hed then
question if it would make any sense to do it at all.

FM:

But today we have a lot of people like Mark Dresser or Elliott Sharp who are
excellent improvisers and also composers. Like Mark, who knows precisely
what he wants and can notate it in a highly precise and coherent language.

LA:

Of course, you can be both. For sure.

FM:

I think this is happening more and more.

LA:

Yes. But, on the contrary, I dont think that Derek Bailey had any ambitions to
be a composer. And Evan? I dont know. But if you ask Evan if hed like to play
with this person or that one, etc., there would be enormous limits to his
control, and that is good for improvisation. These people always remain
individuals who play with or against each other.
And what is typical about written music, not meaning that it is less
important, is that the musical spirit is bound coherently together and is always
at the service of one organized thought. And that it is predetermined and
organized and can be repeated. Its a totally different activity.
And then you get that weird in-between state of musical interpretation of
written music.

FM:

And then, complexity school where the writing is sometimes so mathematically

complicated that few can make a perfect representation of it, so that it
approaches improvisation once again?

LA:

That has happened a lot, and it came up in a conversation with Richard

Barrett. That was in the early eighties when he was looking after my house and
I asked why he notated his own music in such a complex way. And he
answered, Because I wish for my composed music to sound like improvised
music. And me, Well, if that is what you want, then you should improvise!

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L. Andriessen
And he did; he took my advice, formed a group and began with live
electronics. And it is much better! You know I consider all that complex music
pretty hopelessyou shouldnt do that. Musicians should be able to have a
good time playing, and not have to perform all those strange scores.

FM:

And Brian Ferneyhough, who composes complex scores and doesnt

improvise?

LA:

Then he should learn to do so! He knows that he is my black sheep . . . and I am

his.

FM:

Really?

LA:

I hope so! [laughs]

FM:

But with soloists who really knuckle down and study in an extraordinary way,
then it is possible. But I do ask myself about the group performances.

LA:

I find that you must write less, and have trust in and respect for the musicians.
If they understand and love the music then theyll know when it should be
loud and when it should be soft, when it should be fast and when slow. Leave it
up to the interpreters. Good composers write the half of itRavel wrote
almost nothing! Forte/piano, a hairpin, etc. Ravels the best composer from the
twentieth century. Stravinsky is also a good example, though there isnt so
much to interpret, but what is so interesting with him (different problem) is
that he could compose music that sounds as if it were improvised by a group
of people. It sounds like a strange, improvising, collective-consciousness. He
moves in one direction, and then suddenly switches to another. Nobody can
do that as well as he did.

FM:

Through his collage techniques . . .

LA:

He thought of this in 1916! And thereby something such as free jazz could
develop.

FM:

Maybe influenced by the visual arts around him, out of the work with
Diaghilev, the influence of cubism, the breakdown of forms, etc.?

LA:

That is absolutely so, his montage techniques come from film, from which he
was very much influenced. Stravinsky was a film fanatic and, of course, he also
knew about Malevich and others, Kandinsky.

FM:

The abstract animations, etc.

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LA:

But it is also true that this influenced improvisation, as that came out of folk
music. The roots of improvisation originate in folk music, not classical music.

FM:

Then you think that the natural state of music is embodied in improvisation?

LA:

Yes, of course. Absolutely. That is where it all begins, in the pleasure of playing.

FM:

And only in recent music history do we have written music . . .

LA:

Since 1200 a good composer listens to performers, trained and untrained.

Thats another thing. But folk music has always had a great influence. Only in
the time of Fascism did it get off track. That is clear. And then you can
understand how it works in the Sacre, in the opening when two clarinets play
in parallel 7ths, that should actually be octaves, but then as two Russian
farmers might play it. This is the way to analyze it!
There are very many examples to cite where the boundaries are crossed in
the relationship lying between reflection and performance. [begins to noodle
on the tabletop] Hmm, that is where it is, try it this way, no perhaps it goes
this way . . . [fingers imaginary chords on the tabletop] And if you improvise,
you cant do this.
And then you get to the subject of playing a wrong note. Guus Janssen is
good at understanding thishe has listened a lot to Stravinsky and to Monk
and knows how to integrate the fault into the structure. And then it is good. I
think all the big improvisers have this ability, also Evan Parker and also Charlie
Parker. [pause] A few great improvisers like Miles Davis have developed
themselves enormously. And certain composers as well; Stravinsky tried to
always renew himself.

FM:

Like with you, one can always recognize your chords.

LA:

But I have no strict system, totally not. And in each new piece I always try to
do something I havent done before.

FM:

But you always hear Louis . . .

LA:

That has to do with harmony, I find some chords more beautiful than others.
Same with Mozart. But going to the beginning of our talk, you asked if I still
improvised and how that influenced my writing. The best example can be
heard in my big pieces. I remember that the beginning of Mausoleum was
improvised almost without thinking. Not as precisely as it is notated in the
score, but the idea is clearly an improvised musical subject that develops for
the first 5 minutes or so. As it stands now, it is written in measured lengths,
but the strange long reverberation in the beginning is in itself more important

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L. Andriessen
than the first bar, that it overcame me. I did it, and then the piece was born
then I got the idea for the piece.
And in my case, composing is almost always improvising and always on the
piano. And if I leave the piano to get a cup of coffee, then it sounds different
in the mind than if you were sitting to play. The physical side of it is what
counts; the hands are guided by what I wish to hear. Your headbut played.
That is clear, it is physical. The difference is, with improvising you just do it,
and with composing you have an enormous resistance against which you must
find what you just did good enough to write out. Then you play it again, and
again write it out. Afterwards you look at what you wrote and think, But it is
really not this, its 3/4 instead in 6/8. And then you have to get the eraser and
cancel it . . . and so on. Composing slows everything down a lot.

FM:

But do you have a predetermined architecture before you start?

LA:

For the large pieces I always have a rigid formal structure, but not for the
actual composing. What I am composing at the moment [Dantes Inferno] is
about this and that, but above all it is about the text. I know I will have three
screaming women, and then the fracas. And that is intended for the last 5
minutes, and thats all I have as an idea. And then it must be like a great wind,
a great storm.
You improvise, and go further and further. But the reason something is
good is determined by that oversight in your imagination. If it fits into the
whole structure that you already have, it is important that it leads to where you
wish to go. And those are the criteria by which you judge if it is good or not.
Not only the notes. Of course some notes are better than others, but often they
come too quickly. You need to take time for them. Notes are good, but not too
fast.
For example, if you say something brilliant, perhaps a remark to someone
who is just entering the room, it wont work. It comes too soon. Or on the
street, you can say something nice about a girls dressthat would have a
surprise element. But then afterwards, you shouldnt say anything for a while.
Because then it could go all wrong.

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