Intergraph CADWorx & Analysis

Topic Options

#40425 - 01/24/11 11:37 PM PSV Closed system Force

Nalibsyah[1] Dear All,
Member
Registered:
01/24/11
Posts: 56
Loc: Abu
Dhabi

there is some issue that i need to clarify in this forum since i see that many expert in Piping Stress
Engineering and COde Committe are visited this forum.
The issue is about Force on PSV Closed system.
As what i know that Force that show up when PSV in closed system begin to ring is including in
Impact Force so it is a dynamic event, but still we can use the quasi static method to analyze it by use
the DLF factor.
As long as i know this event also not a static condition because the pressure will change rapidly when
the PSV rst ring.
The problem of my concern is for this PSV Closed system i usually used and consider not only the rst
impact/unbalanced forced in rst elbow or obstruction but also in the second elbow and other
downstream this PSV.
I also read in Peng book, that he mentioned that the event when PSV in closed system ring still
consider as Non static condition, so from here i can take the conclusion there will be no Balanced
force, it means Impact force will occurs in each elbow or obstruction but in opposite direction.
We can measure each of this Force if we know the opening time of the PSV and multiply it with the
length of each pipe section to get the Max. Unbalanced force in each elbow or obstruction.

length of each pipe section to get the Max. Unbalanced force in each elbow or obstruction.
But here in my new assignement i found a different method for client method, where Force
downstream of PSV (other than force on rst elbow) are consider to be balanced each other.
I also found this method in one Engineering company that become a trade mark for Piping
Engineering.
So for all Expert and Collegues here, i ask for your advice, amybe opinion about this Issue.
Hope that it can give another value for all of us here.
Thanks.
With Regards
Nalibsyah
Top

#40429 - 01/25/11 04:22 AM Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: Nalibsyah]
stressguy81[2] As per API 520 Part 2, Cl. 4.4.2
"
Member
Registered:
07/03/08
Posts: 71
Loc: India

Pressure-relief devices that relieve under steady-state ow conditions into a closed system usually
do not transfer large forces and bending moments to the inlet system, since changes in pressure and
velocity within the closed system components are small.
.....
A complex time history analysis of the piping system may be required to
obtain the reaction forces and associated moments that are transferred to the inlet piping system."

As you said in general practice, the momentum component is imposed as a reaction force at PSV.
generally divided as two cases,
Case1: When PSV pops up (Force imposed at PSV) and

Case1: When PSV pops up (Force imposed at PSV) and

Case2: When there is established ow (When the forces cancel each other)

You might nd this topic interesting

http://65.57.255.42/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=show at&Number=11775#Post11775
http://65.57.255.42/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=show at&Number=24685#Post24685

I case of having a long run reaction forces can be imposed at the rst elbow at a different case, ex: F1
at PSV and F2 at rst elbow in the establised ow condition, conservatively.
Top

#40430 - 01/25/11 06:35 AM Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: stressguy81]
mariog[3]

The only accident with PSVs in closed systems I know it is one in which the PSV was wrong chosen and

Member

this was the conclusion of investigations. In my opinion it would have been avoided by common sense
process/piping experience but also by eld operators feedback.

Registered:
09/29/07
Posts: 525
Loc:
Romania

was chattering for years before piping was broken. It was a fatigue damage "assisted" by poor supports-

Reversing the point of view, you can see in eld PSV arrangements that cannot be quali ed by today
calculations but have had a satisfactorily service for long time.
I think any calculation for PSV in closed systems is good because offers the opportunity to review the
related piping and helps providing stiff supports. For this point of view the calculation must be
encouraged.
In the same time, Im in doubt that 99% of these calculations would simulate what its happening in

In the same time, Im in doubt that 99% of these calculations would simulate what its happening in
eld with PSV in a closed system. That's why I don't want to say one approach is wrong and another one
is good.
In addition, when the Client/Company regulations are hard (and usually it is the case, because it seems
to be o hot topic!) you have to comply with.
Top

#40431 - 01/25/11 07:33 AM Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: mariog]
danb[4]
Member
Registered:
04/22/05
Posts: 1174
Loc: ...

I agree with mariog and stressguy81.

I'd like to add the following.
Check should be done for pop forces and if the velocities are close to 1 mach, apply forces at elbows
equal with w x v ( ow times velocity)
Regards,
_________________________
Dan

Top

#40434 - 01/25/11 07:46 AM Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: danb]
MoverZ[5]

A further warning about Mach speed ..... it cannot in most cases be exceeded in a PSV body due to

Member

to calculate reaction forces can give incredible results. If you check the associated velocity it may be

choking. Since velocity is not directly addressed in the equations given, the formulas in API RP 520 used

Member

to calculate reaction forces can give incredible results. If you check the associated velocity it may be
well in excess of Mach speed and thus impossible. A reduction to a realistic mass ow rate should give
Registered: better force results.
11/22/06
Posts: 1189
Loc: Hants,
UK
Top

#40435 - 01/25/11 08:17 AM Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: MoverZ]
danb[6]

Indeed, and this is in line with Norsok P-001 limiting criteria ro x v2 less than 200 000.

Member

However a rough formula w x v = ro x v2 x A is quite reasonable. (e.g. for a 8" line and a ro x v2= 200 000,
Registered: force will be 7534 N) Not big, not small, but will lead to a lot of guides and/or stops.
04/22/05
Posts: 1174 _________________________
Dan
Loc: ...
Top

#40440 - 01/25/11 09:56 AM Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: MoverZ]
mariog[7]

Dear MoverZ

Member

You say
Quote:

Registered:
09/29/07

Since velocity is not directly addressed in the equations given, the formulas in API RP 520 used to

Posts: 525
Loc:
Romania

calculate reaction forces can give incredible results.

Well, I cannot blame the API formulas. Maybe the people applying API formulas.
API formulas are based on "free jet" approach.
If a free jet is released in atmosphere or in a large volume, the piping system will receive a reactive
force.
This is the force that API counts as:
Reactive_Force= [mass ow-rate]*[jet_velocity]+ [p_jet]*[area_jet]
where
- mass ow rate must be the actual value (it is greater than the designed ow rate, because the actual
PSV ori ce is larger than minimum required!)
- jet_velocity is the critical speed when the jet gas ow has Mach=1 feature (is counted in Fluid
Mechanics as jet_velocity= sqrt(2*R*k*T/ ((k+1)*M)), where notations are as in API, R is the universal
perfect-gas constant , in SI is R=8314.5 J/kg mol/K.
- p_jet is the gauge pressure in the released jet
- area_jet is the internal area of piping at the point where the jet is released
This is exactly the API formula, where the numerical coef cient is sqrt(2*R), in SI units
sqrt(2*8314.5)=129
Obviously, the formula is based on the "choked" condition i.e. Mach=1 and this is taken into
consideration by counting jet_velocity= sqrt(2*R*k*T/ ((k+1)*M)
A possible source of errors may be the term [p_jet]*[area_jet], because it seems that "p" in chocked ow
is somehow out of common engineering perception and API does not give details on the subject.
I reattach a paper showing a simple way to evaluate pressure in isentropic choked ow (Mach=1). You

I reattach a paper showing a simple way to evaluate pressure in isentropic choked ow (Mach=1). You
can see the same result in some articles, but the uid mechanics model is more complicated there.

My best regards.
Attachments
Choked_ ow_pressure.pdf[8] (494 downloads)
Top

#40441 - 01/25/11 10:10 AM Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: mariog]
MoverZ[9]
Member

Thanks for the uid mechanics lesson Mariog, I am well aware of theory. My note was a warning since I
have had occasion to check calculations where a small PSV apparently attracted a huge force, due
exactly to the error I outlined. People do make mistakes and far too many 'engineers' apply equations
blindly, because all too often they have found an unchecked and non-validated Excel spreadsheet

Registered: solution on some dodgy company drive.

11/22/06
Posts: 1189
Loc: Hants,
UK
Top

#40449 - 01/25/11 03:56 PM Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: danb]
mariog[10] Dan,
Member

I think your example may be written as "if there is a free-jet exiting 8" piping area with (choked)

Member

I think your example may be written as "if there is a free-jet exiting 8" piping area with (choked)
parameters complying with rho*v^2=200000 kg/(ms^2), the reaction force would be 7534 N".

Registered:
09/29/07
Posts: 525

For a closed system I would say it is a "better than nothing" criteria.

Loc:
Romania

PS. I have a funny story with a PSV process issue in a big company that after 2 months of Olga software
calculation decided to have 24" size line downstream of the 2"x4" piloted PSV. So 24" wasn't the
subheader size, it was the size connection to the subheader. The model was a visual aggression and the
calculation was "worse than nothing".

Top

#40455 - 01/26/11 05:40 AM Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: mariog]
danb[11]

I think that I will not rephase as the purpose of this was more trivial.

Member

I was talking about ow induced forces. Decent problems require decent solutions, sort of "better than
nothing". For complex problems, there are other solutions and I am not one of the specialists that can

Registered: solve them.

04/22/05

Posts: 1174 _________________________

Dan
Loc: ...
Top

#40462 - 01/26/11 08:52 AM Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: danb]
mariog[12] Dan,
Member

You were talking about ow induced forces in closed systems and I was talking on the fact rho*v^2

Member

You were talking about ow induced forces in closed systems and I was talking on the fact rho*v^2
transposed in "force criteria" would be a criteria for forces due to "free-jet" effect in open systems. I

Registered: think also that rho*v^2 is a steady-state criteria and does not address to the "momentary, instantaneous
09/29/07
Posts: 525

forces that result when the valve rst opens".

Loc:

The point is I have no evidence such criteria is a decent one in closed system except the connection with

Romania

subheader/header where a "free jet" may exist.

The only certitude I have is that every stress specialist and Company has the certitude that his/her/their
criteria is decent. I'm not in position to say they are right or not, so I accept their approach, criteria, etc.
It is interesting (for me) to see that the process people have the certitude they don't know such decent
criteria to evaluate roughly the magnitude of forces in a closed system. I accept also their position.
Best regards.

Top

#43155 - 06/02/11 08:40 AM Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: Nalibsyah]
Tengku_Syahdilan[13] Stress guy and others, i think i need to clarify what asked. My concern is that when PSV rst
pop up there will be a travelling wave downstream the PSV discharge or RV discharge. This
Member

load is not balanced each other. This force will have the same history shape throught out the
system but the arriving time is different in each point. This is why in API 520 as stress guy

Registered: 12/26/09
Posts: 56

taken above mention :

Loc: Indonesia

A complex time history analysis of the piping system may be required to

obtain the reaction forces and associated moments that are transferred to the inlet piping
system."
and in ASME B31.1 Non Mandatory App. II Para II.2.2.2 :

and in ASME B31.1 Non Mandatory App. II Para II.2.2.2 :

...."However when a safety valve discharge is connect to a relatively long run of pipe and
suddenly opened, there is a period of transient ow until the steady state discharge
condition is reached.
and in Para II.2.3.2 :
......"Relief Valves discharging into an enclosed piping system create a momentary
unbalanced forces which act on the piping system during the rst few milliseconds following
relief valve lift. The pressure waves travelling through the piping system following rapid
opening of the safety valve will cause bending moments in the safety valve discharge piping
and the reminder of the piping system. In such a case, the designer must compute the
magnitude of the loads and perform approriate evaluation of their effects."
LC Peng book page 401-403 so talk about this, where there will be a net force impact on
each leg (elbow or other obstruction) downstream the RV or PSV discharge as a result of the
traveling wave or transient condition.
So what i mean is that we also have to considered the effect of this transient load during pop
not only at the rst elbow ( i see in some company standard they apply this two condition,
during steady state and pop up, but during pop up they only apply the force directly upward
and horisontal at the body of the Rv or PSV.....i also have see some one post this kind of
pictures in other thread about PSV too).
Apply the load at n elbow/obstruction and n+1 elbow/obstruction, but because it is quite
complicated and we will not know the limit of this travelling wave unless we perform
simulation (maybe with Boss uid) or do the time history analysis for better and realistic
result, then it is common to assume to apply until the third elbow/obstruction.
I have found a case where previous engineering company apply the usual method (apply

I have found a case where previous engineering company apply the usual method (apply
upward, and horizontal at valve body), and the result the pump downstream of this RV
system having a trouble. so we x it by apply and considered the transient effect that not
considered by previous company and now have been 3 years the pump still run smoothly.
_________________________
Tengku_Syahdilan
"From Failure we Learn"
Top

Links
1. javascript:void(0);
2. javascript:void(0);
3. javascript:void(0);
4. javascript:void(0);
5. javascript:void(0);
6. javascript:void(0);
7. javascript:void(0);
8. http://65.57.255.42/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=1388& lename=Choked_ ow_pressure.pdf
9. javascript:void(0);
10. javascript:void(0);
11. javascript:void(0);
12. javascript:void(0);

13. javascript:void(0);

Get a free Evernote account to save this article and view it later on any
device.
Create account