Vulnerability and Manipulative Women

Vulnerability and Manipulative Women - Mark Manson
1 of 59
http://markmanson.net/vulnerability-and-manipulative-women
Vulnerability and
Manipulative Women
Were due for another big post on vulnerability and how it affects
relationships and dating. Got an interesting email last week that I wanted to
answer publicly. And, well, I kind of splurged on this one:
Hi Mark,
I attend a local mens group where we discuss Robert Glovers work on Nice
Guys. A friend of mine recently recommended your book to me and Im
about halfway through it.
I am mostly enjoying your book Models, and I do not wish to prejudge, but I
feel compelled to send you this email right away and get your honest
16.3.2014 21:13
2 of 59
Articles
Books
have great things going for me.
Courses
Forum
Contact
I have learned the hard way that women, no matter what they may say, do
not go for Nice Guys or gentlemen, but instead go for the scumbags and the
assholes, etc. I have also learned the hard way that women do not process
logic or think rationally in the same way that men do. The problem that I am
having with your book so far is the issue of Vulnerability.
I am still trying to figure HOW to put this into practice. I am sorry but I
dont think you understand how cruel some women can be. Woman can very
emotional and manipulative liars.
Women, subconsciously or not, do try to impose Shit Tests upon men
especially in this age of fucked up Feminism where the women are searching
for ways to break a mans balls. I think you are totally discounting or
ignoring this in your book.
As for Vulnerability, my experience is that women perceive this as being soft,
weak, a doormat, unmanly, a wuss, needy, etc. I can deal with rejection as
much as it sucks. But in the course of meeting a girl and trying to keep it real,
getting to know her and create attraction, I have problems with the
Vulnerabilty part.
If being Vulnerable with a woman means that I have to expose myself to
humiliation or disrespect or her games or shit tests, then I want no part of it.
I will finish reading your book and write more. I hope to read your response.
16.3.2014 21:13
3 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
struggle with the most. I wanted to reply to this email publicly because it
runs the gamut of objections and confusion surrounding the subject.
Ill take them one by one:
1. I have learned the hard way that women, no matter what they may say, do
not go for Nice Guys or gentlemen, but instead go for scumbags and
assholes.
Intentionally or not, you are equating Nice Guys with gentlemen here.
The assumption is that any man who is polite is therefore a Nice Guy.
If you recall, in No More Mr. Nice Guy, Dr. Glovers definition of a Nice
Guy is a man who subverts his own will and desires to get people to like him.
One of the points Glover makes is that behavior itself is not necessarily Nice
Guy behavior or attractive behavior, but its the motivation behind it.
For instance, you can forgo all manners and be a complete dick, but if youre
doing it so that other people will like you, then you will also not attract
anyone. Despite opposite behavior, you essentially achieve the same result as
a Nice Guy.
In my own book, I make a very similar assertion: that neediness isnt
determined by what you actually say or do, but the intention behind what
you say or do.
The reason some women (its important to emphasize here not all women,
16.3.2014 21:13
4 of 59
themselves.
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
The point is that the determining factor of what attracts women is not
whether theyre polite or an asshole. Thats icing on the cake. Its the
motivations behind their actions that matters.

Im generally a pretty nice guy. So are all of my friends. I attract a lot of
women. As do most of the men I hang out with. It has nothing to do with how
nice we are, its that were not editing ourselves to impress others or to alter
peoples perceptions around us. We have strong boundaries. We have strong
identities. And we happen to be friendly.
2. I have also learned the hard way that women do not process logic or think
rationally in the same way that men do.
PEOPLE do not process logic or think rationally. Not women, humans. I
mean, youve been behaving as a Nice Guy your entire life with little to
nothing to show for it. That wasnt exactly a rational decision, was it? You
consistently chose to get involved with manipulative women. Why? Thats
not very rational either.
Humans, both men and women, are slaves to their emotions and
subconscious itches. Logic only comes into play when we want to justify what
we already feel to ourselves and to others.
Dont believe me? Heres an example that may hit close to home:
16.3.2014 21:13
5 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
a bell-curve in a large enough population. He could understand the power of

cultural influences on personal belief systems and how neuro-plasticity
molds our mental processes to match our environmental stimuli.
He could know and understand all of this, yet still believe that for some
reason, all women are manipulative and irrational. Not some, ALL. Why?
Well, throughout his life, hes made irrational decisions to date irrational
and emotional women, women who have manipulated him and generally
made his life a living hell. It was his decision to date them. But rather than
admit that to himself (that would, after all, be rational), its easier to believe
that EVERY woman, all 3.5 billion of them, is born with some sort of
neurological or ethical deficiency that men (read: himself) doesnt have
even though there is absolutely no scientific evidence for it and theres an
entire social movement fighting against irrational gender beliefs such as this.
Sound familiar?
3. I am still trying to figure HOW to put this into practice. I am sorry but I
dont think you understand how cruel some women can be. Woman can very
emotional and manipulative liars.
Oh, really? You think I havent been manipulated or lied to by women
before? Wish I could say I havent, but not true. The way I got here all began
with a manipulative and lying woman.
(And by the way, ANYONE can be cruel, emotional, manipulative and a liar.
16.3.2014 21:13
6 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
4. Women, subconsciously or not, do try to impose Shit Tests upon men

especially in this age of fucked up Feminism where the women are searching
for ways to break a mans balls. I think you are totally discounting or
ignoring this in your book.
Well, it depends what your definition of a shit test is. The classic definition
of a shit test is when a woman challenges you to determine how congruent
and confident you are in your identity. This is usually seen as a negative
thing by men, which is strange since it indicates that shes interested and/or
intimidated by you.
But, in my opinion, women shit test fairly rarely. And heres why
Whats the difference between shit testing someone and simply doubting
them? Whats the difference between a woman making fun of your job to see
if youll defend yourself to her or her legitimately being unsure if thats what
you do for a living?
The answer: Her intentions. One is manipulative. One is simply being
genuinely uncertain and wanting to know more about you. BOTH are done
because shes interested in you, but well leave that alone for a second and
focus on the manipulation.
How do you tell the difference between a woman who is being manipulative
(shit testing) and a woman who is genuinely curious about you (interested)?
16.3.2014 21:13
7 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
the worst and distrust all women in this situation.
Forum
Contact
So the friendly way she jokes about your hair is suddenly MANIPULATION.
That honest question about whether you miss your ex sometimes is
MANIPULATION.
That concern that you dont speak to your mother enough is
MANIPULATION.
This is a shitty way to live and a shitty way to date women.
Yes, everyone is manipulative some of the time, and some women are
manipulative a lot of the time. But walking around freaking out that women
are shit-testing you all the time is labeling them all guilty without a trial.
You are choosing to interpret everything women say to you as manipulative
and emotional, and then go around complaining that all women are
manipulative and emotional.
The issue here isnt women. Its you. You dont
trust them.
I want to encourage to stop making
assumptions about people, especially women,
and start taking them by their actions point
blank. You asked earlier what vulnerability
looks like. Well one way to be vulnerable is to
be open about your expectations and values.
16.3.2014 21:13
8 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
Heres my take on shit tests: Who cares? Shit tests only have power over you
if youre overly concerned about her opinion of you. If youre truly confident
in who you are, then you shouldnt feel the need to prove it to her, especially
some sassy broad you just met.
The point is: If shit tests bother you, its because youre weak.
A strong confident man looks a shit test in the eye and laughs. Shes trying to
fuck with him? Really? How cute. Lets dump her and go find a confident
woman who wont try to fuck with my emotions. Ah, there, thats better.
Im going to wrap this up with a series of examples. As with many of the
examples in the book, the four examples below are a matrix of behavioral
traits. In the first two, the man demonstrates a lack of vulnerability, in the
second two, the man demonstrates vulnerability. In each case, a
manipulative woman and a non-manipulative woman are shown.
Example 1: Non-Vulnerable Man with Manipulative Woman
Him: So after school I actually hitchhiked my way down to San Diego. It was
a little bit crazy and my parents hated it.
Her: Wow, youre pretty irresponsible.
Him: Im as irresponsible as they come. Why, does that intimidate you? *sly
grin*
Her: *laughs* Intimidate me? I dont think you could if you tried.
Him: Keep it up and well find out soon enough.
16.3.2014 21:13
9 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
manipulative women. This lacks vulnerability because youre masquerading

your actual identity in order to out-wit her or to be more dominate or
whatever the fuck the phrase is they use these days.
The other variation of the lack of vulnerability here is to go the Nice Guy
route and agree with her in an apologetic way. For instance: Yeah, but Ive
grown up since then. Im very responsible now. This works on, well, just
about nobody. But when it does, it plays into manipulative women as well.
All in all, a shitty and unpleasant interaction. Even if you do get laid, you
have to constantly sit there and battle with the woman long enough to trick
both of you into thinking youre attracted to one another.
Example 2: Non-Vulnerable Man with Non-Manipulative Woman
Her: Wow, thats pretty extreme. What motivated you?
Him: Motivated me? Hah, what motivated it is I do whatever the fuck I want.
Her: No, but I mean, did something in particular inspire you to do that?
Him: Im inspired all the time. You know, I used to play in a rock band.
There was this one time, blah, blah, blah
Notice in this example the woman is actually genuinely curious about the
mans life and his motivations. She questions it not out of manipulation but
out of genuine curiosity. But a man could easily interpret this as her testing
him or patronizing him in a sarcastic way.
16.3.2014 21:13
10 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
douchiness. This type of stuff will turn off non-manipulative women in two
seconds flat. The Nice Guy variation of this would be to avoid the intimate
questions and make some sort of self-deprecating statement, like Haha, I
dont know, I was being stupid. This would be harmless but would kill
attraction and likely lead to the friend zone.
So what have we noticed? A lack of vulnerability turns off non-manipulative
women and gives manipulative women more ammunition to come at us with
drama. Non-manipulative women get tired of us and reject us. Manipulative
women become energized and we have to spar our way into their pants.
So what about an honest, vulnerable approach?
Example 3: Vulnerable Man with Manipulative Woman
Her: Wow, youre pretty irresponsible.
Him: Not really.
Her: Ditching your family to go and try to be some badass surfer guy. Give
me a break. How self-centered can you be?
Him: Thats a pretty judgmental way to look at it.
Her: I just think its stupid and disrespectful.
Him: Well, its clear our values differ. It was nice meeting you.
Her: Wait, what?
Him: Goodnight.
16.3.2014 21:13
11 of 59
Him: *Walks out*
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
This is an example of how vulnerability can embody strength. The power of

vulnerability comes in setting strong boundaries. In this example, the woman
is judgmental and probably exaggerating her objections in order to make the
man feel insecure around her. He identifies her judgment for what it is and
has the balls to come out and say it. He identifies that shes not living up to
his values or expectations, lets her know and then promptly dumps her on
the spot. This is not easy to do.
The reason its so hard is because youre disregarding another persons
perception in favor of your own. Youre exposing your values and your
desires openly. And as a result, this woman is likely going to think youre an
over-sensitive asshole for the rest of her life. Thats vulnerability. Thats
risking far more than standing there and arguing with her or teasing her
back.
One horrible mindset that a lot of men get into is the idea that they have to
win situations like this. Theres no winning here. Even if you out-wit a
bitch to sleep with her, youre still sleeping with a bitch. Its a lose/lose
situation.
The beauty about setting such strong boundaries is that you screen out
manipulative women insanely quickly. Guys always think Im crazy or lying
when I say that I never get shit tested. But I dont. I never date manipulative
or bitchy girls. I consistently date really beautiful women with high values,
16.3.2014 21:13
12 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
date. Ill walk away mid sentence. I dont care. I dont have time for girls who
suck.
The irony here of course, is that manipulative woman cant take this. In their
mind, they just lost and so theyll do anything to get you back. Sometimes
theyll step up their games, call you a dozen times, plead with you for another
chance. But other times theyll straighten up. Often women will apologize
and then never fuck with you again. As soon as they know youre willing to
walk away at any moment, they will not mess with you.
Finally, I should note that I dont hold these standards to look for a soulmate
or anything. Even in casual sex situations, I maintain these standards. And
the paradox is that meeting and dating women actually feels EASIER once
you adopt this mindset. You would naturally think, Oh, that means I have
to meet twice as many women, I have to put in twice as much effort, since
Im rejecting half of the ones who like me.
Actually, you end up putting in far LESS effort, because youre no longer
wasting so much time and energy trying to convince her that youre a cool
guy. Youre not longer exhausting yourself wondering whether she likes you
enough or not, or worry about how to impress her or win her back. When she
doesnt live up to your standards, the situation is made extremely easy for
you: you walk. No thought involved. No arguing. No super witty comebacks.
Just: her behavior doesnt meet my standards, Im going to meet someone
else now.
16.3.2014 21:13
13 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
Her: Wow, thats pretty extreme. Is there anything that motivated it?
Him: Well, part of it was just classic rebelliousness. But my family is pretty
conservative. And I never felt like I completely fit in. Looking back, it was
obvious that I needed to do something that made me feel independent,
something that gave me my own identity.
Her: Yeah, that makes sense. I think everybody needs to do that to a certain
extent, maybe not in such extreme situations.
Him: Definitely. I had a blast though. I mean, at the time, it felt like I was
about to ruin my life or something, but now I look back and its just a cool
thing I did one summer. *laughs*
Her: Haha, yeah, its funny how things that used to be a big deal when you
were younger arent any more. *laughs*
Him: Yeah, like a first kiss or a first date. *laugh*
Her: Oh totally. I remember my first kiss. We planned it like a week in
advance. My legs were shaking the whole time.
And here is an example of two emotionally mature, non-manipulative adults
who are attracted to each other. I threw in the transition to a sexual subject to
show how easily it can be done once youre already on personal topics. This
is kind of a tangent, but a lot of men who have trouble sexualizing their
conversations are never talking about something that can create sexual
tension.
A big reason for that is that their conversations are shallow. When youre
discussing the weather, the baseball scores, what you majored in in school
16.3.2014 21:13
14 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
hotel and had sex in an empty conference room it gets very, very easy.
Why? Because youre being vulnerable. Getting involved sexually is an act of
vulnerability, so if youre both already being vulnerable up until that
moment, its just a logical next-step.
But that may be a topic for another day. The point that I hope these
examples drive home is that vulnerability is not weak. Vulnerability involves
setting strong boundaries and then connecting with woman on a meaningful
level.
Psychological research shows that people of similar self-esteem end up
attracted to one another. Research also shows that men and women with
similar beliefs about gender end up together.
What this means is you are who you attract. If you consistently end up with
manipulative, mean women. Then theres something about you that is
manipulative and mean; you just dont see it yet. Robert Glover brilliantly
describes how Nice Guy Syndrome is actually extremely manipulative by
being passive-aggressive. Theres a reason why Nice Guys always end up with
narcissistic drama queens. Theyre good matches. And one must admit that
to themselves.
I walked around for years with the story that my ex-girlfriend totally screwed
me over and fucked me up emotionally. Eventually I was able to admit that
actually I had been a pretty shitty boyfriend, needy and passive-aggressive.
And I wasnt surprised that she left me. That change in narrative changed
16.3.2014 21:13
15 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
Assholes may get laid, but the quality of the experience is rarely high because
theyre doing it through duping women who are trying to dupe them.
Sex and relationships are best when theyre both consciously agreed upon.
And to be conscious, they have to be manipulation free. Your overall
problem here is easily fixed: set stronger boundaries. Its clear youve been
hurt in the past and are making angry generalizations about women. Its also
clear that you still have this sub-conscious need for these women to approve
of you. And in short: these two things are scaring away the good ones and
continuing to attract the bad ones.
For more info on this topic, check out these posts:
The Fake Alpha Males
The Pain Period
A Note on Vulnerability
16.3.2014 21:13
16 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
Every couple weeks I send out a newsletter with new articles and
exclusive content for readers. It's basically my way of keeping in touch
with you and letting you know what's going on. Your information is
protected and I never spam.
Subscribe below to stay connected.
SUBSCRIBE!
Related Articles You may also like -
7 Things Sex
Education Should
Have Taught Us But
Didn't
Shut Up and Be
Grateful
A Note on Vulnerability The Fake Alpha Males
Interview with "T,"

Part 1
6 Toxic Relationship
Habits Most People
Think Are Normal
16.3.2014 21:13
17 of 59
Articles
Previous
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
Dave
Reply
2 MONTHS AGO
Im new to this site, and to this authors opinions. Having

studied (but not practiced) the teachings of the pick-up
artists, I think that this site has probably the best rebuttal to
them Ive seen one which really identifies the source of
their misogyny and limitations on their understanding of
women and sexuality.
However, based on what I see here, I do think the term
vulnerable is a bit of an abuse of terminology
vulnerability implies the ability to be easily hurt
something which is clearly not a part of the picture painted
in the interactions. In fact, the vision I see painted here is
one of a different alpha male one who is honest and not a
douche. I would say I think honest is a better descriptor
than vulnerable.
Anyway, I also think the concept of vulnerability is, in
itself, potentially dangerous, if misapplied. People, men and
women both, are often vicious and manipulative, and few
flesh and blood humans live up to the ideal of being
immune to criticism, and above worrying about the
opinions of others. I think opening ones self too much to a
stranger is generally a bad idea, because it will likely result
in rejection and/or emotional harm. This, in turn, will make
a person less secure, rather than more.
16.3.2014 21:13
18 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
Some people have nitpicked the usage of

vulnerability and I have to say that I see some of
their points, yours included. Unfortunately, I have
yet to come across a better usage of it, and theres a
lot of new research coming out describing the social
behavior above as being vulnerable and noting its
positive effects on relationships.
The concern you raise about being rejected and
being hurt is the whole point of vulnerability. When
you hide and guard yourself from hurt/rejection, you
lose power and you lose status (and consequently,
you behave in unattractive ways). When you open
yourself to rejection and assert your self-perceptions
over those of others, thats how you gain power AND
intimacy in your relationships.
Its kind of confusing. Heres are a couple other
articles on the subject: http://postmasculine.com
/power-in-vulnerability and
http://postmasculine.com/a-note-on-vulnerability.
brent
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
vulnerability implies the ability to be easily hurt.

Thats exactly correct. And the point is, yeah a
person may feel embarrassed when being honest
about his/her motivations and intentions, but a
person like Mark decides not to LET others
opinions hurt him/her. Yes, you can be much more
easily hurt when you put your most personal
thoughts and feelings out there for people to judge,
16.3.2014 21:13
19 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
Brent
Nissa
Reply
14 WEEKS AGO
Dear Dave,
You really got me thinking, so I went to Webster
and found the definition of vulnerable. It means
capable of or susceptible to being wounded or hurt,
as by a weapon: 2. open to moral attack, criticism,
temptation, 3. (of a place) open to assault; difficult to
defend.
However, I have to agree with Marks position more
than yours after reading the definition. To me, this
shows vulnerable to be a very powerful thing the
thing I see many men craving above all other things
power. The power to be capable of being hurt, yet
still strong. The power to be open, because your
authentic self is something of value, even when the
other person does not recognize it. The power to be
in a less defensible position, because your inner
strength is capable of handling less than optimal
situations.
Such a man is very attractive. This power, while not
being based on anything superficial, is completely
within a mans control. So a man who might feel he
has less to offer in the way of traditional female
desires (money, power, attractiveness, height, etc)
would be well served to increase his value in this
way.
16.3.2014 21:13
20 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
Epic.
I found PostMasculine through Alden Tan, and I`m really
glad I did
Dude this is some real, quality wisdom for a fresh
generation of badasses.
I *love* the depth you went into with your multi-example
addressing of his e-mail on a point-by-point basis.
Total respect.
50/swf
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
Absolutely right on.
Wesley
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
Ironic you inform him that he is making wrong assumptions

when you did it yourself. He said women CAN be
manipulating, not ALL women are. He said how cruel
SOME women can be again NOT ALL, like you wrongly
analyzed.
You are also backwards on blaming him on being
manipulated. That is like saying its your fault you got
murdered because you walked down that street where there
16.3.2014 21:13
21 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
Women do not shit test rarely. There wouldnt be a term for

it if it happened rarely. just because it happens rarely in
your experience doesnt mean it is true for all men. Again
assuming what you experience is absolute reality.
Mark Manson
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
You seemed to have missed the point of the post. I

say multiple times that many women are
manipulative and I even say that I have been
manipulated by women before myself. No where do
I say that all women are or arent manipulative.
What I do say is that some PEOPLE are
manipulative. Gender really has nothing to do with
it.
But the point of the article is that it ultimately
doesnt matter, and that you shouldnt change your
values and the way you approach dating or intimacy
for fear of some manipulative people. Because if you
try to manipulate women back, then you lose.
Manipulation attracts manipulation and honesty
attracts honesty. That is the point.
And shit tests are a term that paranoid and insecure
men came up with to justify why they feel paranoid
and insecure around women. Period.
Wesley
16.3.2014 21:13
22 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
it, which doesnt work by the way.

And you misread my comment I read your post just fine. I
siad you assumed HE thought ALL women were
manipulative NOT YOU.
Mark Manson
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
http://postmasculine.com/shit-test-paranoia
Question isnt really if shit tests exists or not, its a
question of how youre going to deal with women
you meet. You can either deal with them on their
terms try to impress them, try to pass shit tests
or you can deal with them on your terms. I
recommend dealing with them on your terms. The
examples above are why.
Not all women are manipulative, and the best way to
avoid the ones who are is by not being manipulative
yourself. That was the whole point of this article,
which seems to have been lost on you.
Wesley
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
No I understand what you are saying. Also, what you said

was you dont get shit tested anymore. You seem to create
this idea that all men who seek to handle them can get o a
point where they dont anymore.
16.3.2014 21:13
23 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
men who are insecure in the realm of shit testing and not
the women. Just admit thats not truewhen men try to pass
these tests, they are in their own way trying to help the
woman.
I just went over your other article about shit testing. You
said and I will quote.
Shit tests only happen when a woman is already very
attracted to you to the point that it makes her
uncomfortable. She eases this comfort by testing you. Its
her sub-conscious saying, Im so into this guy that its
scary. I dont know how trustworthy he is. Here, Ill say
something obnoxious to see if hes for real or not.
Thats being insecure with trusting oneself and another in a
nut-shell.
Later on you advise to even accept her insecurity as
evidenced here.
But if youre unaffected, and if you come back at her with
even more playfulness and ease, if you accept her insecurity
and rest with it, bringing her up to your level with
confidence and care, then youre reaffirming to her that, in
fact, you are a ridiculously hot guy she just met.
So I will ask you one more time Who is the insecure one
here?
Mark Manson
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
There are insecure men and there are insecure

women. Insecure women shit test. Insecure men
16.3.2014 21:13
24 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
to help women. Theyre playing into the womans

insecurities with their own insecurities.
Nebula
Reply
30 WEEKS AGO
I dont think you really do underdstand. At all. Any

of it.
Wesley
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
Oh and just a follow up about the quote saying hes so

attractive its scary, I have to know of hes trust worthy.
Again that doesnt come of as paranoid to you?
Wesley
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
There are insecure men and there are insecure women.

Insecure women shit test. Insecure men perceive women to
be shit testing them (usually more than they actually are.)
Men are not being insecure here Ill explain.
Insecure women shit test.
Men are not insecure for being aware that a woman is shit
16.3.2014 21:13
25 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
In turn a secure man can perceive when a woman is shit

testing them. You are making it sound like this only applies
to men who are insecurewhich is wrong.
Next point:
When men try to pass shit tests, they are not trying to help
women. Theyre playing into the womans insecurities with
their own insecurities.
Perhaps more clarification is needed on some aspects but
this notion is faulty as i will explain here
A man passes the shit test when he says something what
ever it is, that causes women to trust him again or confirm
her beliefs in him. ( playful banter, answering the question
with a backhanded compliment, remains grounded etc.)
This in turn indeed does help the woman. She feels better
she has been assisted.
This is what men try to accomplishthough many times
they are unsuccessful because of the womans insecurity.
Mark Manson
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
Fuck causing a woman to trust me or not, Im not

responsible for her trusting me or not. Sorry, but this
is such a loser mentality. It IS insecure. Feeling a
need to pass some random womans test so you
can have sex with her is as insecure as it gets. I dont
want to pass anybodys tests. If they feel a need to
16.3.2014 21:13
26 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
The problem with the shit test model is that it

depends on intentions. And you can never read a
persons intentions 100% of the time. So if you
assume women are always testing you, then you will
end up acting like a jackass in front of genuine,
honest women sometimes. If you assume that women
are not testing you, then you will end up being
honest and open to women who are being
manipulative some times.
But you read the article, so I dont need to repeat
this stuff.
Wesley
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
Actually, to an extent you are.

I wish we could simply say what you just wrote in your
opening point to them when they do this but we all know
how bad it would turn out.
A WOMAN will never make her intentions clear. MEN are
known for always going for what they want (even though the
way they go about it could be questionable). Women have
no idea what they want.
Right, and that is why women do it. So that men run the
risk of looking like a jackass should the interaction go awry.
That is why they never approach men, or communicate.
However, they will throw out signs of ambiguity, and
whatever falls convenient for her she will act on (rejection
or acceptance)
16.3.2014 21:13
27 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Mark Manson
Contact
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
Man, you have some fucked up beliefs about women.

Men are always clear about what they want? Lol
Wesley
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
Yes men are direct. Women are never direct.

When a man sees a women he is potentially
interested in.
He goes up to her and talks to herask for her
numberand sets up a date.
How is that a fucked up belief?
Women never approach men instead they
sent out signals, and expect men to be keen
on them which the signals are so subtle its like
observing a pebble roll down a mountain
from an MIR space station.
Here let me school you on some of the signals.
Smile and look away.
Twirling the hair.
Triangulation.
Standing in place hips swinging side to side.
These are the more apparent ones.
16.3.2014 21:13
28 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
would like to get to know you better, lets

meet up at such and such place day and time.
Instead.they will passively wait and pray
that you notice them and talk and make the
first move because they are worried about
rejection.
Example. Beauty and the geek.
There was an episode where women had to
approach men and get phone numbers etc.
you know the way men do.after a night out
they were crying upset and depressed over
lack of results. Men deal with this everyday
when they talk to women and still chive on.
You are a man and you are direct when
dealing with womenplease be intelligent and
say yes.
Mark Manson
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
Women dont initiate because they

dont have to, not because theyre not
direct. Ive known some very direct
women and Ive met plenty of men who
couldnt state what they wanted to save
their lives (I used to coach them for a
living.)
So isnt it ironic that your first
comment was accusing me of making
generalizations about men/women and
insecurity, and now youre making
16.3.2014 21:13
29 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
indirect, some women are indirect;

some men are insecure, some women
are insecure.
The question is: what are you? And how
do you go about finding the women you
want?
brent
1 MONTH AGO
Mark, for everyones sake,

including your own, just let this
one go. This is petty and not
worth your time get angry about
or our time to read.
Britt
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
Hey Wesley, Im a woman and youre

an insecure douchebag is that direct
enough for you?
Wesley
1 MONTH AGO
No Britt you little cuntrag its not
16.3.2014 21:13
30 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
Mark Manson
1 MONTH AGO
And you have now completely and

entirely discredited yourself.
Nissa
14 WEEKS AGO
Hey Britt
LOL!! Love it!
Wesley
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
Well as one can easily determine, these. Emotional

landlines women through out should be stopped they sworn
against you more than work for you.
Wesley
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
Well I figured if a dating coach can make backwards

generalizations, I could make ones that are a little closer to
the truth.
But thats less relevant to me now, I expressed my points
16.3.2014 21:13
31 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
I am a 23 year old male living in NYC who has to deal with

hostile stuck up princess syndrome having princesses who
literally have scores of men vieing for their attention and
then have the nerve to say no man is good enough.
What am I going to do about finding the woman I want?
Nothing. They dont deserve a great guy like me. I am
caring responsible actively fit, but apparently thats not
what they want or i would get good treatment reciprocated.
So now I avoid them like the plague. A major double
standard (among the many we men are effaced with) is that
a woman can say she doesnt need a man and she is cheered
for it) a man says he doesnt need a woman (which I dont)
and will just automatically assume I cant get one. So in
short I dont want a woman, because they will slow me
down with their games their insecurities and their daddy
issues. I am prepared to carry every day doing what I want
to do everyday instead or having a woman infringe on it. It
is also way too much risk and too little reward so Ill pass.
Women can be stuck with the needy clinger wimpy nice
guys, who will let them get walked all over. Which is a really
spoiled rotten attitude anyway. Someone who is willing to
love and care for unconditionally and thats how they get
treated. I have seen it though never experienced it. I am
dominant, so I would never put myself in the nice guy
subservient position, that much I knew which I thought
would put me ahead of the curve, but I guess not.
brent
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
16.3.2014 21:13
32 of 59
Articles
Books
Nebula
Courses
Forum
Contact
Reply
30 WEEKS AGO
Your walls are too high You need to go back to

basics before advancing to dating concepts like
vulnerability. Try being authentic with a woman and
try to see yourself through her eyes. A man with a
great job and physique will be overshadowed by his
baggage with your attitude.
Ellard L
Reply
28 WEEKS AGO
A major double standard (among the many we men

are effaced with) is that a woman can say she doesnt
need a man and she is cheered for it) a man says he
doesnt need a woman (which I dont) and will just
automatically assume I cant get one. So in short I
dont want a woman, because they will slow me
down with their games their insecurities and their
daddy issues. I am prepared to carry every day
doing what I want to do everyday instead or having
a woman infringe on it. It is also way too much risk
and too little reward so Ill pass.
My dude, you are tip-toeing on the line of earning
yourself the titles: Insane and Delusional. Youre not
a great guy like you think; bashing women and
calling them cuntrags. You dont seem vulnerable
which in turn actually makes one weak. You appear
to be seemingly egotistic and deprived of healthy
encounters with women that YOU can just be
GOOD FRIENDS with. You are really failing to
acknowledge the many things that make you
16.3.2014 21:13
33 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
one. The invulnerable man constructs his own

demise before he is even born.
Go blow off some steam. Dont seek information to
be combative; especially when youre very unsure of
your own identity. Anybody who takes you seriously,
will NOT teach you shortcuts (often overlooked in
the Pickup Industry). Half-assed doers, get half-assed
results. Youre 23, Im 20. Take the time while youre
still young to start taking shit seriously. Give what
you do life (action) and meaning, so youll learn to
stand for something and be just damn proud of it
(reading, introspective reflection, saying hi to a new
woman everyday, etc.).
Get your life together, so women wont feel like they
have to.
Matt
Reply
15 WEEKS AGO
Recent reader, first-time commenter. I imagine this

comment thread will continue as I scroll down, but I
thought Id mention my suggestions now. It sounds
like theres a great deal of pain around the concept
of women for you. Ive recommended this to others
before, but Id just take some time to not think about
women at all. When youre ready to think about
dating again, be strict with yourself and ask yourself
if it is reasonable to think that all women will play
games and have daddy issues. As for how to find the
woman youre looking for, it can be a numbers
game. Given this, Id recommend finding a dating
site that you like (which is also a great way to filter
16.3.2014 21:13
34 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
les
Forum
Contact
Reply
12 WEEKS AGO
you ever hit a woman?
Elle
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
I think this is an excellent, excellent post. Not to say that

Im an authority on women, that Im never dishonest or
manipulative (because that would require a little more
self-awareness than I think I possess), but I am happily
married, and vulnerability, honesty, and humility are just
about the most important parts of a good relationship, and
theyre all intensely connected. Thats not to say that you
should be humiliated in front of your significant other, but
it may require you ask yourself whether an argument over
who put the milk back without the cap is honestly worth
your time, or hurting someones feelings over. It certainly
requires you to acknowledge you may be wrong
occasionally. Just as being willing to accept someone elses
vulnerability and being vulnerable yourself is crucial. And
without, above all, honesty, none of that means anything.
Im not trying to lecture anyone. But I do want to say that
from this perspective, that guy looked immensely,
immensely unattractive. What woman would ever want to
be with someone who made negative blanket statements
about women? Hi, Im a woman, and a *person.*
16.3.2014 21:13
35 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
from this perspective, that guy looked immensely,

immensely unattractive. What woman would ever want to
be with someone who made negative blanket statements
about women?
Apparently you only wanted to read the negatives he
posted so you COULD lecture him.
Also apparently women didnt want to be with him when he
was loving responsible confident etc.Which I am sure you
read too.
Yeah these beliefs dont help out our situation in fact
hinders it even more. I acknowledge that, I dont think its
worth the time to did someone who will change that.
Its kind of like saying youre giving up and you havent
even tried, when little did you know Herculean efforts were
made which were unsuccessful.
This man did make an effort he was in a relationshipit
took women doing what he described in his email to make
him see just what they are capable of and do.
Mark Manson
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
Not sure where youre going with this, but my

response was written to the many number of emails I
get from men with beliefs that all men are hurtful or
manipulative. I just used his email as an example (I
asked his permission prior as well, so he understood
the context.)
16.3.2014 21:13
36 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
Mark, I believe, since he quoted it, he was

referring to me.
In regards to my post, the disclaimer was
there becauseagainIm not an authority on
anything. But I was adding a consensus to
what Mark was saying, based on my own
happiness. So, really, not trying to lecture
anyone. Dont take other peoples happiness
so personally. Especially when you dont
know them.
Also, you know what really attractive men do?
A lot of damn things, but I know a few in
particular who never makes blanket
statements about men, women, racial groups,
political groups, etc., because they
acknowledge that they dont run the gamut of
human experience, therefore they cannot
possibly know anything conclusive about the
entirety of any group.
Honestly, if youre so goddamn bent out of
shape by the general shittiness of womankind,
then never, ever speak to another one again.
Please. Except for the ones with masochistic
tendencies, most will honestly thank you
(only they wont be able to; theyll move on
with their lives). What EXACTLY is
attractive about someone who spends so
much time examining the despicable qualities
of women? What exact advantage do you have
over someone who either walks away or gives
any person the benefit of the doubt? Youre
smarter, right? But youre spending an awful
lot of time on an obscure corner of the
16.3.2014 21:13
37 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
some is not a term of generalization. But

really, in the sense of the sentence, it is kind
of like this: Ive had one or two bad
experiences, so I dont think its possible to
put your advice into effect, because its
probable that this will happen to me again,
because all this shitty stuff has happened to
me, and its not my fault, so it must be the
defect of women. He does, after all, later say:
I have learned the hard way that women, no
matter what they may say, do not go for Nice
Guys or gentlemen, but instead go for the
scumbags and the assholes, etc. I have also
learned the hard way that women do not
process logic or think rationally in the same
way that men do. The problem that I am
having with your book so far is the issue of
Vulnerability.
Now, I dont have to address this, because the
blog OVERWHELMINGLY does, hallelujah.
But the point is: guy was definitely
generalizing about womenhey, just like you!
And to be really, really honest, Wesley, when
you say that women are collectively shitty in
any way, you make yourself out to be not so
[great, responsible, nice, whatever], period. If
someone asserts in one sentence that women
are manipulative shits, and then turns around
and claims that they are the paradigm of
chivalry and kindness, the part of existence
called The Real World (4chan, reddit, and
other proponents of the friend zone not
included) steps in to say, Hahaha, have you
been living in a box? Because clearly your
16.3.2014 21:13
38 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
chauvinists: its probably untrue just because

of the impossibility of substantiation, not to
mention the fact that, in most peoples
experience, even a feminists, its untrue.
There are more male rapists than there are
female rapiststhis is a fact. Are men
naturally disposed toward being rapists? If
you say yes, slap yourself, hard. Are women
naturally disposed toward being victims? No,
thats ridiculous, too, of course! Very few rape
victims come out of their experience thinking
that the gender of the person who raped them
is evil. Im sure there are some, I dont know.
But Ive met a lot of rape victims who tend to
shift their fear in other directions (fear of
intimacy, fear of [confrontations with] their
rapist, fear of something they did/do to get
them raped). And sure, I know someone who
turned gay because of her experience, but
shes still friends with males. The very
long-winded point here is that gender
stereotypes are eeeeeeeeeeevil. And kind of
stupid, really, because theyre not founded
upon logic, at all. Theyre founded upon a lot
of other psychological factors which Mark
identifies here, and across several other
articles.
And the most important point to leave you
with, Wesley, my summarizing conclusion: in
order to find a great person, you have to
actually be a great person. Again, these were
all things basically talked about above. We all
thank you for the lesson in how shitty women
are (especially we women, who now hang our
heads in shame at how poorly SOME of us
have treated you) and English grammar.
16.3.2014 21:13
39 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
signifiers, into tidy boxes. It is clearly not

working for you, and its pretty fugly.
Wesley
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
And the most important point to leave

you with, Wesley, my summarizing
conclusion: in order to find a great
person, you have to actually be a great
person.
There are plenty of people who hook up
or find great people who are losers,
sociopaths,women etc and vice versa.
I just want to say that that notion is
false. aside from the blah blah blah
novel you just wrote which shows you
are investing a similar amount of time
into these blogs as I am.
You seem to be bothered that I jut
merely point out the truth and it is your
duty as a fem-nazi to contest it.
Oh and I will be talking to womenI
will be doing the manipulating, playing,
abusing for a change Somewhere in
your novel I saw masochistwell
strippers at the club I bounce at seem to
be great targets. I mean really dumb as
spit and had some great flings with.
16.3.2014 21:13
40 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
will predict words for me or make me

use them on the wrong tense. Its the
thing to do in between checking IDs.
Matt
15 WEEKS AGO
Dude ya gotta find a way to let go

of your hate! I predict that when
you pass forward the mean ways
youve been treated to others,
youll just end up feeling empty
inside, and it certainly wont help
you develop healthy, satisfying
relationships. More
recommendations for when youre
ready to date again: stick with
women 25 and up, and avoid
clubrats like the plague. (I know
Im committing the same offense,
but Ill also be open with my
hangup)
Wesley
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
I wish you would incest more time

reading and writing I already
acknowledged that my beliefs wont
make me any more attractive than
being confident caring and responsible.
16.3.2014 21:13
41 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Wesley
Contact
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
You mean men with beliefs that WOMEN are

manipulative?
So many emails and many men. That says something about
the amount of trouble women cause.
I am most certain these individuals have a righteous
disappointment in multiple women they have had problems
with.
Ok I guess, NOT all of THEM are but it can definetly be
said that a great number and the majority ARE and that is
one of the many things that they do to cause more
alienation between the sexeskeep it up. Keep changing
good guys and making things difficult and then wonder why
there arent any left.
Wesley
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
Hmm with the many emails about men saying ALL women
are manipulativeyou could have found a better one
I am sorry but I dont think you understand how cruel
some women can be. Woman can very emotional and
manipulative liars.
16.3.2014 21:13
42 of 59
Articles
Books
Minorin
Courses
Forum
Contact
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
Yes. You are right. All women are manipulative.

They are horrible horrible creatures. Men are so
much better. They are the voice of reason. That is
why as a female I date men. You should too. They
are GREAT!!
Some Girl
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
I thought this was an overall good article until I got the part
about how to talk about a sexual subject. I was really
surprised because you seem to understand whats
appropriate and what motivates each gender pretty well.
Why do you feel that talking about sex is necessary? Its not.
In my opinion, thats just as passive-aggressive as the Nice
Guy behavior. It comes across as insecure, like you feel you
need to promote your past experiences or successes.
Im a woman and Im not very familiar with the whole PUA
thing, but from what I do know, Id assume PUA tells guys
to work in some sort of sexual topic into the conversation.
You seem to still be taking plays from their playbook with
this one.
You do not need to talk about sex or anything sexual to
create sexual tension. Sexual tension comes from natural
chemistry, attraction, conversation, and body language, but
not from literally talking about sex.
16.3.2014 21:13
43 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
about this. If youre going for authenticity and dont want to

be manipulative, you dont talk about sexual subjects. Its
crude, immature, and shows insecurity.
I will give you a real life example. A guy I used to know, I
could tell he was interested in me. Hed often stand near
me, talking loudly to someone else, just sort of making his
presence known. I knew thats what he was doing. That is
something some guys do. I could tell he was slowly working
up the courage to talk to me or ask me out over time.
One time, he was talking with someone else about a
conversation hed had with a girl in a bar about their sexual
fantasies. I wasnt exactly interested in him before, but I
was open to the idea. After overhearing that conversation, I
was totally turned off to the idea of ever going out with him.
It just made him appear unconfident, like he was
overcompensating. This guy wasnt a jerk. He wasnt trying
to act like a jerk. He was a nice guy. Im not sure if the talk
about a sexual topic is something some guys do to impress,
subconsciously, or if hed heard that tip somewhere. He was
a somewhat quiet guy and Im sure he felt the need to
counter that by presenting a little bit of a bad boy side. I
wouldnt normally have been attracted to him his looks,
his personality, but, if he hadnt done the whole loud sex
conversation near me and had just been ok with who he is
and not overcompensate, just act confident, I would have
accepted if hed asked me out.
Like I said, hed been slowly, over weeks/months, working
up confidence to talk to me. Shortly after that day, hed
finally worked up the courage to come stand next to me
(awkwardly! but I would have normally found that cute) and
said something to me, trying to start up a conversation.
Since I was already aware hed been working up the courage
to talk to me/ask me out, and since I was totally turned off
be his sex conversation, I was pretty short with him and
16.3.2014 21:13
44 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
I knew I wasnt interested and I didnt want to put either

one of us in the awkward position of having me turn him
down. Normally, I would have gladly talked to this guy.
Talking about sex does not itself create sexual tension. The
only time I can imagine it being of any benefit is if theres
already sexual tension and you both are looking for no
strings attached sex that night. Otherwise, no. Bad idea.
Talking explicitly about sex or anything sexually related is
cheap and crude. If thats what youre presenting, thats the
only kind of girl youll get with that kind of behavior.
So, my advice, no sexual topics. They do not work in your
favor if youre trying present yourself as mature, confident,
and non-manipulative.
Mark Manson
Reply
1 MONTH AGO
Some girl, youre falling into the same trap that

youre warning against.
Intentionally not talking about a sexual subject is
still a form of performance, unnecessary and
manipulative. Forcing yourself to talk about a sexual
subject is also, as you pointed out, a performance,
unnecessary and manipulative.
People should feel free to bring up sexual subjects
whenever they feel it appropriate or feel inspired to.
Unfortunately, a lot of men are afraid to talk about
sex around women they like, and so they avoid it.
Thats why that advice is included there.
16.3.2014 21:13
45 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
This post is pretty close to excellent! Vulnerability is a term

as it inspires growth; to those interested in growing of
course. I became a big fan of The Fake Alpha Male article
as well after reading this one. Keep doing your thing dude. I
appreciate all of the judiciousness behind your insight.
Valarie
Reply
26 WEEKS AGO
Hi Mark,
I just found this site through Psycholocrazy. And even
though its intended for men, Im really fascinated with
what Im finding here. A lot of the basic concepts here apply
to women as well, and seeing a guys perspective is
interesting for me.
I was very moved by this particular paragraph:
What this means is you are who you attract. If you
consistently end up with manipulative, mean women. Then
theres something about you that is manipulative and mean;
you just dont see it yet. Robert Glover brilliantly describes
how Nice Guy Syndrome is actually extremely manipulative
by being passive-aggressive. Theres a reason why Nice Guys
always end up with narcissistic drama queens. Theyre good
matches. And one must admit that to themselves.
The first sentence struck me the most and really opened my
eyes. Maybe this is a little out of place, but lately (maybe
always) Ive seemed to attract needy, clingy, say-I-love-youway-too-fast kind of guys. I had recognized this and just
broke up with a guy I had been dating for 6 months because
I felt that he was putting too much emotion into the
16.3.2014 21:13
46 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
vulnerable as I would like to be, am too concerned with

hurting other peoples feelings so I dont say no a lot which
just says that I care too much what they think about
meand its all 100% true. I cant even deny it. It is me.
Ive been trying to be more open, honest, confident, and
vulnerable with everyone lately but it is very difficult. We
all have that childhood trauma and what not that impacts
who we are today. I really want to be a better person and
youve helped to inspire me to do just that. So thank you!
You now have another reader.
I dont really want o get into the heated feminist debate or
anythingbut Im going to say one thing and be done with
it.
I just really cant stand when a person assumes all women
are a certain way or should be a certain way. And I also
REALLY cant stand when people assume men are a certain
way or should be a certain way, or when some feminists
have this elitist attitude that they are better than men in
some way and that men deserve to be disrespected.
No one can help what body they are born with
Really, we need to let the gender stereotypes goits just a
sign of insecurities/bad past experiences when people are
like that and completely unattractive to everyone
I justugh, sorry for the rant but that just really gets under
my skin.
Were all humans, cant we just live happily with each
other? Maybe one day.
Again thank you Mark.
Victoria
16.3.2014 21:13
47 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
you to think theyre nice, gentlemanly and whatever else

they think that means.
I dated a guy who was a combination of a complete asshole
and a nice guy at the same time, but when I say nice guy I
mean did chivalrous things like hold open a car door, pay
for everything I ever did, etc., yet he was the most dramatic
and manipulative person Ive ever had the misfortune to
meet, because his confidence was feigned, his niceness was
actually more like him trying to be dominant over me, he
completely lied about his sense of humor to match mine
(and I have a very extreme sense of humor for a girl), and
looking back, he played me well but it wont happen again,
because I can now see peoples intentions as if theres a
fucking neon sign over their dick.
I believe if youre trying to be nice to get laid, then youre
actually an asshole. If you act overly emotional (taking
Marks vulnerability concept incorrectly), you look
pathetic, especially to a woman who has no interest in
games or manipulation. In fact, doing anything that isnt
naturally you/not genuine is unattractive except to people
who like to lie, manipulate and play games.
Life is a game, but relationships arent. Relationships are
beautiful and about connecting to another fucking human
being, which is practically a divine experience when you
really think about it. If you see people as equal to you, and
not somebody to manipulate or win over, theres no
question that you attract way more people. My boyfriend of
like 5 years or whatever charms almost everyone I meet, its
insane, and its because hes just himself and has no desire
to impress anybody in a room. People are highly attracted
to people being themselves and not putting on a veil for the
world. My boyfriend doesnt do chivalrous things and I
dont want him to. Im a woman who actually believes in
true equality between sexes (excluding natural physical
16.3.2014 21:13
48 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
something), its not because hes trying to be Mr. Nice

Guy, its because he saw something and thought of me and
was genuinely being nice. And I like THAT part of being
nice caring about others genuinely.
Mark, you probably have one of the best blogs Ive ever
come across and I kind of wish I knew you, just because
your authenticity is staggering and your advice is awesome
(especially about entrepreneurship and life philosophies
which really align with my own). I do have a question
though if you build these relationships with people, how
come youve had so many girlfriends? Or at least it sounds
that way. Have you never met a girl who you wanted to
really be with? Or do you not believe in exclusivity or open
relationships? Just curious about your perception of dating.
I dont really understand the concept of dating as Ive only
ever been attracted to people I was friends with after the age
of 13. Even objectively attractive males I just dont notice or
really care about because I dont know their personality
which for me is #1 in attraction.
Mark Manson
Reply
23 WEEKS AGO
Thanks.
Ive been quite promiscuous in the past. Ive had
three long-term relationships, 3.5 years, 2 years and
1.5 years (current one) respectively. So yes, Ive met
girls I wanted to stay with. Ive struggled with
commitment issues in the past, and self-esteem
issues as they related to sex (hence the rampant
promiscuity). But yeah, relationships are great.
16.3.2014 21:13
49 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
think this can somehow be adapted to help fix a sexless

marriage situation? I mean, it seems that a lot of your
premise rests on the ability to not put up with manipulative
or other unacceptable behavior by being willing to walk
when it occurs. But, in a marriage, especially when there are
kids in the picture, isnt it too late to put up strong
boundaries for all but the most egregious transgressions
(e.g., cheating, abuse, etc.)? How can a husband and
recovering Nice Guy hope to implement such a radical shift
in himself with a wife that is so accustomed to him after all
the years that she doesnt really even see him anymore?
After a time doesnt the wife pretty much stop trying to test
the husband because she feels like she knows all his
methods and capabilities and has made her final decision as
to his worth and potential? She may have decided that hes
good enough to stick with for the foreseeable future, but
shes no longer attracted to him, ergo the sex life between
them dies.
Athol Kay delves into this topic in depth, but his advice
seems to follow the PUA theme of responding to her tests (if
any) with a witty comeback designed to show dominance,
exactly what you seem to be advising against. Is it just the
case that, in marriage that is the only move you can make if
youre not willing/able to walk away?
Nissa
Reply
14 WEEKS AGO
Dear James,
As someone who was in a 14 year relationship (8
years married) I can tell you without a doubt that no
matter what the other person does, if you change,
16.3.2014 21:13
50 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
change in communication, effort or what they want

(or are willing to try) makes for tremendous change
in the interpersonal dynamic.
Best of luck.
CD
Reply
22 WEEKS AGO
I will admit I came to this website for a bit of ranty

inspiration because Im a masochist, I guess. I dont usually
comment in any case. But instead of feeling more enraged, I
actually felt better by the time I get to the end of the post.
The difference between the voice in the email and the writer
of the article is a pretty big advocate for exactly what youre
preaching. I am a girl, and of course, the email made me
bristle, feel judged, hurt, and enraged, with mental retorts
along the simplistic lines of, Im sorry. Youre defining
yourself as a NICE GUY?
The response was far better thought out and allowed me to
breathe. I tend to view sexism as an Invasion of the Body
Snatchers sort of thing because I dont really believe that
most men are judging me prematurely, that most people are
human. But then comments like these lead me to question
how many more are there among us that I dont know
about? While I meet most guys assuming theyre nice (nicer
than me, smarter than me, more put together than me, more
open minded than me, like everyone else in the world
because I AM insecure), one person has me questioning that
maybe my perception of men is wrong and that the loudest
and most verbal are actual representations for how the more
tactful really think. And if that was the case, I follow you: I
dont want to be a part of it.
16.3.2014 21:13
51 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
I had one experience with a Nice Guy, who really was a

nice guy, but was a liar. Not maliciously or manipulatively,
just putting on airs. I couldnt pinpoint how much of what
he said about himself was hyperbole, true, or an out and out
lie, but it made me nervous. Mostly because I COULDNT
tell. I knew he wasnt himself, but I couldnt see how much.
And at first it made me feel like I didnt have any control (I
was having a hard time gauging what he wanted, I couldnt
tell what topics to bring up that he would be interested in,
to avoid that hed be offended or bored by), and then I
began to get angry at him. He continued to protect himself
by saying that It wasnt a date, so that when I said, in the
nicest way possible, Youre leaving soon, so I dont think
its a good idea for us to date, he could say, I told you, I
dont date, make me feel bad for not wanting to hang out
with him again, and then trying to kiss me that same day. I
realize I should have been more vulnerable and said,
Good bye, sooner, but, as I said, he wasnt a bastard, just
non-vulnerable, and, I believe, thinking I was Shit Testing
him.
I dont think of myself as a manipulative woman, but I do
see myself as a non-vulnerable one. I dont want people to
dislike me, which makes a certain touch of dishonesty as
well. The leaving thing was not so much of a reason as an
excuse. I think that its possible to confuse any basic putting
on airs as Shit Testing.
I came here believing you didnt know what youre talking
about and left here hoping you know more than I do. So
thank you.
Roalnd
16.3.2014 21:13
52 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
same relationship scenario. Repeatedly going through the

same start middle and finish. The most interesting
comment you made and one Id already stated to realise
was about who you end up with being a reflection on your
self. It really is true. Theres an easy way to watch this in
action. If you take the most manipulative and psychopathic
women you know she will always be attracted to men who
are psychopathic and manipulative. That does not mean
that kind of man will be all she dates but that kind of man
will be the one they go the distance with, until one screws
the other over.
The rest of the article has put many of the confusing aspects
of relationships to rest. One trouble Ive had is Ive become
so accustom to manipulative women the times I have had
opportunities with genuine women I would view a genuine
question of interest as a shit test and there for would answer
in a manor befitting of a shit test rather than give a genuine
answer to a genuine question.
Thank you so much for the article. I think I need to buy
your book and work on improving my own lot in life.
Glenn
Reply
18 WEEKS AGO
I seminal blog post. So effective.
jcool
Reply
18 WEEKS AGO
16.3.2014 21:13
53 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
be.hes just bitter, insecure and in need of validation. He

values winning, not a particular class of woman. Which
makes him a loser so he blames others.
jcool
Reply
18 WEEKS AGO
*makes him a loser when he is rejected by women,get self

esteemmy motto in dating n women is if shes not
interested shes not interesting.
smlhedthinker
Reply
17 WEEKS AGO
Hey man I have read most all this yeah entertaining,those

two guys one guy wesley? right? and that other kid both
early twenties I dont get it, what are you doing on a web site
like this, twenty three, why do you care what women think
of you at that age, gezz man theres all kinds of time for that,
just have an attitude like you dont give a shit and women
will be fallin all over you just party and have a good
time,the only thing you should be serious about is a job and
saving money! Men are writing on here, this or that about
trying to meet women, so what if you do everything right
and you meet a great woman dont you think that there is a
huge amount of issues that come from that? All us men are
risk takers it is in our blood women not so much,these risks
sometimes payoff Great, extreme sports even great surfers
get nailed in the head sometimes, my point is to try in find
one that will stick around when you get nailed or whatever
life throws you.Finding a good woman lifes big
16.3.2014 21:13
54 of 59
Articles
Books
Jeno
Courses
Forum
Contact
Reply
8 WEEKS AGO
I love the way how you just walk out on a date hahaha.
Though consider this for a moment. You are on a date with
a girl you genuinely like or find something really special
about her looks which you do not come across often. And
one is genuinely afraid of losing her and where walking out
on a date would simply be faking a i do not give a shit
attitude.
Would your idea of vulnerability apply (not particularly in
this example), by simply admitting to her the that you are
afraid of losing her because you genuinely like her ?
Regardless of she being manipulative or not, shit testing or
not. Or is that one being over invested and needy?
Mark Manson
Reply
8 WEEKS AGO
If youre afraid of losing a girl just because of her

looks then thats the problem. Thats basically the
definition of neediness.
You can express neediness openly but it will always
come across unattractive.
Jay
Reply
5 WEEKS AGO
16.3.2014 21:13
55 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
every time. It was always, and I mean literally 100% of the

time its either been Your a nice guy but Or Youre a
great guy but I just like you as a friend. People say that if I
expect her to be a more then a friend, then Im somehow
showing that I feel entitled. Ive had many female friends
most of whom I still love dearly and dont expect anything
else from them, but to expect us to never want a woman to
be more than a friend is unrealistic and just plain stupid. Of
course youre actually going to try to do things to win a
woman youre interested in, to equate that with some sense
of male entitlement is just illogical. Ive heard those
emasculating friend-zone lines from almost from every
single woman Ive ever had an interest in. But what baffled
me even more is seeing those same woman who blatently
stated that they rejected me for being nice, with a total
douche-bag a week later. I started to realize that woman just
arent attracted to nice guys, even if theyre entirely
genuine.
Now, Ive never been a pushover, I had a rough upbringing,
being the only white kid in my neighborhood in the south
Bronx. Believe me, if I didnt know how to stand up for
myself and put up one hell of a fight, I wouldnt even be
alive now. I will always stand up for myself no matter who
tries to push me around, I just wont let it happen. But yet
the first remotley polite thing I say or do for a woman, gets
me immediately bumped into the friend-zone, never to see
the light of day again. I dont buy that woman believe being
nice is some form of manipulation. Maybe some do but for
the most part, I think they just take kindness for weakness. I
actually think that men and woman both very often take
kindness for weakness. But its a particular problem when it
comes to women and dating.
Also, I think you missed the entire point the guy was trying
to make about the fucked up feminism and ball breaking in
this culture. No where in the media or popular culture are
16.3.2014 21:13
56 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
liberation and empowerment. In other words, the game is

already rigged for us to fail because they never wanted us to
succeed. Its just to much fun for them to see a man
desperate, alone, feeling broken and rejected. They take a
particularly sadistic pleasure in this practice and it gos
un-challenged in society.
On the topic of vulnerability, I lost my wife when I was 26,
Ive been alone for over 4 years now. Ive tried to date again
but have been rejected literally every single time, by what
now seems like hundreds of woman. Sometimes once they
found out I was a widower. they just ran as fast as they
could. So I stopped telling woman certain things about
myself. But of course that backfires because then it looks
like Im being deliberately aloof and vague because I have
something to hide, or am being manipulative. But what am I
supposed to do when Ive only told them 1% of what my
everyday life is like and they cant even stomach that
because its to depressing and they can easily find a guy
with no baggage. At least thats how they see it. But if they
stuck around long enough, theyd see that Ive been very
strong in keeping my head up and have worked extremely
hard to pull myself up from the slums and have been very
successful at it. I didnt ask for the life I got, didnt ask to be
abandoned by my mom and living on the streets at the age
of 15, but I did overcome what I endured. However, all
these things, in their eyes, seem to be seen as vulnerability.
They seem to have these immediate blanket generalizations
about everything and put you in a category based on
displaying any of these traits Yes, if you show one of these
traits that they associate with being wussy, youre
immediately dismissed. And theyve been wrong about me
every time, totally misunderstand me and under-estimate
me so much that hardly even one woman has thought I was
worth giving the time of day since my wife.
All this has lead to me being extremely frustrated, thinking
16.3.2014 21:13
57 of 59
Articles
Mark
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
Reply
3 WEEKS AGO
This article has been very, very useful Thanks. =)
Caiti
Reply
2 WEEKS AGO
I really enjoyed this post. Ive been lost in the internet,

reading about all these things Id forgotten- or hadnt
realised- were important, & its fascinating to see so much
social activity regarding these topics. I think that even
though no single person can teach you exactly what you
need to be happy, fulfilled etc, as the life experience is so
deeply personal, amidst all the specific theories & stories &
thoughts there is a wonderful thread of honesty &
consciousness.
As a woman, I felt challenged by this post. Its important to
recognise your own flaws & fears, & to see how they affect
others. So thank you for helping me remember to pull
myself towards myself.
Oh, also, being vulnerable isnt just incredibly important
its also exquisitely appealing, & creates a connection so
much faster than any game or bullshit. As fun as it may feel
(winning the wit game), once youve started to be yourself,
to be open, the returns on your risk serve only to highlight
how empty those wins are. Gentleman, I love it when I can
have an actual conversation with a fully formed person,
instead of some douche whose robotic responses leave me
16.3.2014 21:13
58 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
Dont get me wrong EVERYONE is full of shit at some

point in their lives. Being manipulative or non-vulnerable
doesnt automatically make you an asshole or a bitch, or a
bad person. Its most often an inner reflection of the
insecurities & issues we experience emotionally yet refuse to
consciously process & work through. However, instead of
trying to drown them out in convenient relationships/hook
ups, or taking them out on some poor unsuspecting guy/girl
at the bar, try take yourself home & work them all out first.
Because, as you said, we attract people who are like us. & if
youre already insecure & immature, isnt there already
enough crazy in the equation without adding another set of
neuroses.
Thank you for the blog & making me think
Previous
Leave a Comment
Name *
Email *
16.3.2014 21:13
59 of 59
Articles
Books
Courses
Forum
Contact
SUBMIT COMMENT
Keep updated when new articles are posted.
Copyright 2013 Mark
Terms & Conditions | Privacy
Manson
Policy | Affiliates
16.3.2014 21:13

Vulnerability and Manipulative Women

Uploaded by

Document Information

Copyright

Available Formats

Share this document

Share or Embed Document

Sharing Options

Did you find this document useful?

Is this content inappropriate?

Copyright:

Available Formats

Vulnerability and Manipulative Women

Uploaded by

Copyright:

Available Formats

Vulnerability and Manipulative Women - Mark Manson