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Avoidingpingpong
By:LinusTorvalds(torvalds.delete@this.linuxfoundation.org),December8,20141:34pm

Room:ModeratedDiscussions

JouniOsmala(josmala.delete@this.cc.hut.fi)onDecember8,20141:10pmwrote:
>
>I'massumingthat90+%ofprogramsalreadyrunfastenoughandtheydon'tmatterforthis.
>Itsallaboutaskingquestioninwhatusecurrentcomputersaretooslow,andcanyouparallerize
>thatorarethosecasesalreadyparallel.AndI'massumingyoucanparallerizeatleast10%
>ofthosetimeswhereuserwaitsCPUforlongenoughtoactuallynoticeit.
What'stheadvantage?
Youwon'tgetscalingformuchlonger,andcurrenttrendsareactuallyforlowerpoweranyway.Sowhat'stheupsideofpushingthewhole
parallelismsnakeoil?WeknowthatweneedfairlycomplexOoOCPU'sanyway,becausepeoplewantreasonableperformanceandit
turnsoutOoOisactuallymoreefficientthanslowinorder.
Thewhole"let'sparallelize"thingisahugewasteofeverybody'stime.There'sthishugebodyof"knowledge"thatparallelissomehow
moreefficient,andthatwholehugebodyispureanduttergarbage.Bigcachesareefficient.Parallelstupidsmallcoreswithoutcaches
arehorribleunlessyouhaveaveryspecificloadthatishugelyregular(iegraphics).
Nobodyisevergoingtogobackwardsfromwherewearetoday.ThosecomplexOoOcoresaren'tgoingaway.Scalingisn'tgoingto
continueforever,andpeoplewantmobility,sothecraziestalkingaboutscalingtohundredsofcoresarejustthatcrazy.Whygivethem
anounceofcredibility?

EDITORSPICKS

IntelsHaswellCPU
Microarchitecture
ByDavidKanter

Wherethehelldoyouenvisionthatthosemagicalparallelalgorithmswouldbeused?

AHistoricalLookattheVAX:
MicroprocessorEconomics

Theonlyplacewhereparallelismmattersisingraphicsorontheserverside,wherewealreadylargelyhaveit.Pushingitanywhereelse
isjustpointless.

ByJohnMashey

Sogiveuponparallelismalready.It'snotgoingtohappen.Endusersarefinewithroughlyontheorderoffourcores,andyoucan'tfit
anymoreanywaywithoutusingtoomuchenergytobepracticalinthatspace.Andnobodysanewouldmakethecoressmallerand
weakerinordertofitmoreofthemtheonlyreasontomakethemsmallerandweakerisbecauseyouwanttogoevenfurtherdownin
poweruse,soyou'dstillnothavelotsofthoseweakcores.

IntelsSandyBridgeMicroarchitecture
ByDavidKanter

Sothewholeargumentthatpeopleshouldparallelisetheircodeisfundamentallyflawed.Itrestsonincorrectassumptions.It'safadthat
hasbeengoingontoolong.
ParallelcodemakessenseinthefewcasesImentioned,wherewealreadylargelyhaveitcovered,becauseintheserverspace,people
havebeenparallelforalongtime.
Itdoesnotnecessarilymakesenseelsewhere.Evenincompletelynewareasthatwedon'tdotodaybecauseyoucant'affordit.Ifyou
wanttodolowpowerubiquotouscomputervisionetc,Icanprettymuchguaranteethatyou'renotgoingtodoitwithcodeonaGPCPU.
You'relikelynotevengoingtodoitonaGPUbecauseeventhatistooexpensive(powerwise),butwithspecializedhardware,probably
basedonsomeneuralnetworkmodel.
Giveitup.Thewhole"parallelcomputingisthefuture"isabunchofcrock.
Linus
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LinusTorvalds(torvalds.delete@this.linuxfoundation.org)onDecember8,20141:34pmwrote:
>JouniOsmala(josmala.delete@this.cc.hut.fi)onDecember8,20141:10pmwrote:
>>
>>I'massumingthat90+%ofprogramsalreadyrunfastenoughandtheydon'tmatterforthis.
>>Itsallaboutaskingquestioninwhatusecurrentcomputersaretooslow,andcanyou
parallerize
>>thatorarethosecasesalreadyparallel.AndI'massumingyoucanparallerizeatleast10%
>>ofthosetimeswhereuserwaitsCPUforlongenoughtoactuallynoticeit.
>
>What'stheadvantage?
>
>Youwon'tgetscalingformuchlonger,andcurrenttrendsareactuallyforlowerpoweranyway.So
what'sthe
>upsideofpushingthewholeparallelismsnakeoil?WeknowthatweneedfairlycomplexOoOCPU's
anyway,because
>peoplewantreasonableperformanceanditturnsoutOoOisactuallymoreefficientthanslowin
order.
>
>Thewhole"let'sparallelize"thingisahugewasteofeverybody'stime.There'sthishuge
>bodyof"knowledge"thatparallelissomehowmoreefficient,andthatwholehugebodyispure
>anduttergarbage.Bigcachesareefficient.Parallelstupidsmallcoreswithoutcachesare
><i>horrible</i>unlessyouhaveaveryspecificloadthatishugelyregular(iegraphics).
>
>Nobodyisevergoingtogobackwardsfromwherewearetoday.ThosecomplexOoOcoresaren't
going
>away.Scalingisn'tgoingtocontinueforever,andpeoplewantmobility,sothecraziestalking
about
>scalingtohundredsofcoresarejustthatcrazy.Whygivethemanounceofcredibility?
>
>Wherethehelldoyouenvisionthatthosemagicalparallelalgorithmswouldbeused?
>
>Theonlyplacewhereparallelismmattersisingraphicsorontheserverside,
>wherewealreadylargelyhaveit.Pushingitanywhereelseisjustpointless.
>
>Sogiveuponparallelismalready.It'snotgoingtohappen.Endusersarefinewithroughly
>ontheorderoffourcores,andyoucan'tfitanymoreanywaywithoutusingtoomuchenergy
>tobepracticalinthatspace.Andnobodysanewouldmakethecoressmallerandweakerinorder
>tofitmoreofthemtheonlyreasontomakethemsmallerandweakerisbecauseyouwantto
>goevenfurtherdowninpoweruse,soyou'd<i>still</i>nothavelotsofthoseweakcores.
>
>Sothewholeargumentthatpeopleshouldparallelisetheircodeisfundamentallyflawed.
>Itrestsonincorrectassumptions.It'safadthathasbeengoingontoolong.
>
>ParallelcodemakessenseinthefewcasesImentioned,wherewealreadylargelyhave
>itcovered,becauseintheserverspace,peoplehavebeenparallelforalongtime.
>
>Itdoes<i>not</i>necessarilymakesenseelsewhere.Evenincompletelynewareasthatwedon't
>dotodaybecauseyoucant'affordit.Ifyouwanttodolowpowerubiquotouscomputervision
>etc,Icanprettymuchguaranteethatyou'renotgoingtodoitwithcodeonaGPCPU.You're
>likelynotevengoingtodoitonaGPUbecauseeventhatistooexpensive(powerwise),
>butwithspecializedhardware,probablybasedonsomeneuralnetworkmodel.
>
>Giveitup.Thewhole"parallelcomputingisthefuture"isabunchofcrock.
>
>Linus

Howdoyouspell
blue?

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