Open Delta PT Vs Wye PT

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Open Delta PT vs Wye PT

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TxPowerEE (Electrical)
(OP)
6 May 08 01:33
Hello all,
My first post here, so if I leave anything out let me know. I am dealing with a utility that is demanding we install
wye-wye pts for protective relaying in our gear. We are connecting to the utlity with 5 2.2MW gens at 13.2kV. We
have capacity for up to 12. The system will be paralleled for several minutes but will never export power.
The utility is demanding the y-y PT because of a requirement in IEEE 1547. Their argument is that if a phase
upstream of my facility (on their grid) goes to ground and the gens are online the y-y pt is required to capture a
voltage sag due to the ground fault. The protective relay is a GE750. I get the sense they are demanding this only
because its in 1547, they can't explain to me why the y-y is superior in this instance to the open delta.
My questions
1) Is there any advantage of the y-y over the open delta?
2) Looking for a voltage drop to clear a ground fault seems like a rather round about way of clearing a ground
fault. Wouldn't is just be better to use the 51g setting in the relay to clear the ground fault? Or possibly the
residual ground fault settings?
RE: Open Delta PT vs Wye PT

davidbeach (Electrical) 6 May 08 02:09
Open delta is a relic of electromechanical relays. Never, never, use open delta with numeric relays for new
applications and try to replace them with wye when you can for retrofit projects. Open delta can not measure V0 or
any phase-ground voltage, you are just throwing information away. Looking at voltage on an ungrounded system is
about the only way to detect a ground fault; you've said nothing about the system configuration, perhaps phase
voltage is the only way to detect a ground fault when the utility breaker has opened - open delta can't do it.

vima (Electrical) 6 May 08 09:35
open delta generally used in high impedance grounding system or ungrounded system.
Is it just Y-Y PT or earthed through neutral?? Explain how your generator neutral earthing and the grid earthing was
carried out?

No, open delta (two transformers) is worthless in high impedance grounded systems. What is usually used in high
impedance grounded systems is broken delta (three transformers). Open delta provides phase-phase voltage
only. Broken delta provides 3V0 only. Connected to a numeric relay wye-wye VTs provide phase-phase, phaseground, (+) sequence, (-) sequence, and (0) sequence voltages.

slavag (Electrical) 6 May 08 10:37
Hi.
Very shortly.
100%+.. agree with David.
Best Regards.
Slava

dpc (Electrical) 6 May 08 10:42
There's very little chance of winning this argument with the utility, so you may as well figure out a way to give them
what they want.
I'm not sure I fully agree that open-delta PTs are a relic of electro-mechanical relays. This arrangement is
commonly used in metalclad switchgear mainly because two PTs are cheaper than three. The open delta works OK
for metering which is what they were generally used for.
But I agree that for protection in distributed generation applications, three PTs are generally going to be necessary
to get useful relaying information for the reasons David Beach gave.

Yes Dave. It's issue

"This arrangement is commonly used in metalclad switchgear mainly because two PTs are cheaper than three. The
open delta works OK for metering which is what they were generally used for."
But we can agree, for the 3xPT per BB, price isn't important . And today many designers would like used voltage
information not only for metering , also for the NPS and PPS voltage meas.
Regards.
Slava

(OP)
6 May 08 11:17
Bear in mind that this system can accomodate up to 12 gens and with 4 utility feeds, plus gen tie breakers. This
adds up to 26 sets of PT's, which are used for paralleling controls protective and metering information. The costs of
PT's is substantial. However, the project was specified, bid, and accpetted by the utility with Open Delta. Now 2
years later they are demanding Y-Y.
DPC is 100% on the money the utility is going to shove this down my throat, but their protection engineers could
not tell me why they wanted Y PT's. The just kept saying "because IEEE 1547 says its required." Incidentally, IEEE
1547 isn't required by the Utility commission, whose interconnect standard does not mention PT configuration.
DB - the system is grounded, but the utility configuration is unknown. I'll know more after a meeting today.

I don't see why the utility would require wye-wye PTs for each generator. As long as you provide them at the utility
interconnections and the protection isolates your generators from their system when there is a fault on their
system.
Maybe I'm not understanding the configuration.

The price adder for 3-VTs rather than 2-VTs is what, 0.0001 times the cost of the gen set? How can that be a
substantial cost?

(OP)
6 May 08 12:35
The system is designed for Utility parallel, so if you used opend delta on the Gens and Y-Y on the utility you would
have to accomodate for the phase shift. What we are going to do is install Open delta PT's with a a 1:1 ratio on the
secondary of the Y-Y. This is the most cost effective option and the least painless option.
DB substantial now if you had to replace 26 PT's after the fact, parts and materials not to mention lengthy outages
while the PT's are replaced. If it was done up front the cost would be minimal.

The aux PTs on the Y-Y PTs should work fine for synchronizing function, although you really only need this on one
phase.
I'm still not clear on why 26 PTs have to be replaced?

(OP)
6 May 08 13:23
DPC
If we didn't install the aux pt's the utility signal would be shifted 30 degrees due to the Y-Y vs Open Delta and all of
the generators, Utility board buses and Utility breaker PT's feed the synchronizing controls. The synch controls
,possibley, could be adjusted to account for this shift but it is not the optimal solution and could create
maintenance/functionality issues down the road.

I understand the need for aux PTs to correct the phase shift for synchronizing. But you don't need aux PTs on
every set of PTs to accomplish this, or at least I wouldn't think so. But I don't your one-line so I'm probably
missing something.
But it sounds like you already have a solution.

Hi.
Intresting thread.
From technical point of view.
Y-Y connection is more better, BUT NOT MUST for the genrator protection, synchronazing and metering.
As I understand, you have open delta connection on the BB too and sinchronazed genset to BB.
I think you need aux, PT for the BB PT only ( I don't know how sections you have).
voltage connection before auv PT you will use for the genset sinchro, after aux PT for the utilities infeeds.
Regards.
Slava

Many synchronizers and sync check relays can be set to expect a 30 phase difference at synchronism (actually any
multiple of 30) - you shouldn't need aux VTs just for that.

Hi.
If TxPowerEE have " synchronizers and sync check relays can be set to expect a 30 phase difference at
synchronism (actually any multiple of 30) " it's solve all problems ( I'm hope).
Good Luck.
Slava.
P.S. In your new projects, please try use Y-Y.

Better do a slow and careful phasing check.

alehman (Electrical) 6 May 08 22:53
This is a good discussion, but I think to provide a more definitive response we need know more about how your
system is configured and the utility requirements.
Open delta gives you accurate V1 and V2, but not V0 as stated above. If it is important to know V0, such as for
ground detection, then YY is required. Do you have utility ground detection presently and how is it accomplished?
Does the utility have a standard for this? It is unusual for a utility distribution circuit in the U.S. to be anything but
solidly grounded (there are exceptions).
Since this is a retrofit, it would be preferable to minimize the cost and retrofit YY only where required. I think it is
unreasonable for the utility to say you must upgrade every PT in this existing system unless there is demonstrated a
need.
I wouldn't go so far as to say open delta is a relic, there are many still being installed and they work fine for many
purposes. YY is a minimal cost add for a new systems and probably worthwhile for the added flexibility even if there
is not an immediate need.

REM76 (Electrical) 7 May 08 00:02
I don't know alot about your system, But I would think that you should be able to detect ground faults on the utility
side using a 67N function (directional over current) at the point of common coupling (PCC). In this case, I believe
you still need a Y-Y PT only at the PCC for accurate polarization using calculated 3Vo.

(OP)
7 May 08 10:23
A pdf of the system is attached with identifying info redacted. The utility told us about their requirements or new
requirements nearly 2 years after the system was installed. As stated earlier they reviewed and approved the
drawings before the system was manufactured. TX PUC does not specify requirements, the PUC only states for a
system this size a mutually agreeable interconnect design is required.
REM76 - we are using the 67N but the utlity is still requiring(AKA dictating) phase to ground sensing.
Also I know we could probably adjust for the phase shift but the aux PT's are so inepensive and it's a cleaner
solution, especially for commissioning, maintenance and troublshooting in the future.
To all thanks for the input!
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=2d650e0f-59bb-4446-a79b-8b

Marmite (Electrical) 7 May 08 11:10
Bearing in mind the short duration of the parallel and lack of export it does seem heavy handed by the utility. How
about suggesting a timed interlock that breaks the parallel after a set time, say 5 mins? The risk of backfeeding into
a fault on their system in that case would be minimal.
Regards
Marmite

rcwilson (Electrical) 7 May 08 13:56
I recall that Y-Y PT connections can be susceptible to ferro-resonance and that open-delta PT's are not. Is my
memory fuzzy or is this true?
We usually apply a Y-Y set of VT's with dual secondary windings, one connected in grounded wye and one wired
broken delta with a loading resistor. The broken delta with resistor minimizes ferro-resonance and gives a 3Vo
voltage for ground detection.

rbulsara (Electrical) 7 May 08 14:42
Txpoweree:
Just went thru this with SR 750 on a gen plant similar to yours. Read page 5-46 of the manual. Y-Y is necessary to
use the voltage as the polarization quantity for directional ground fault function, 67N, which most utiltiy co. would
require. Current polarization is usually not possible for most configuraiton with generator plants ).(it may works for
a solidly grounded transformer source if within reach). Impedance grounded system are even worse with delta PTs.
Y-Y solves all these head-aches at very minimal price, if implemented initially.
We resolved the 67N issue by using very sensitive non-directional GF setting for the duration of closed transition,
instead of 67N.

Hi.
RCWilson:
"We usually apply a Y-Y set of VT's with dual secondary windings, one connected in grounded wye and one wired
broken delta with a loading resistor. The broken delta with resistor minimizes ferro-resonance and gives a 3Vo
voltage for ground detection".
Yes, it's common practic, but newer relays are include option build broken delta internally on Y connection base and
3I0 too.
As far as I know, SEL also have option of NPS voltage detection ( maybe GE too) 32Q ( I hope, it's right ANSI code)
protection for the GF. Actually possible build internally U2 on the open delta connection base. This functionality
recommended by SEL for the solidly and low impedance systems.
What do you think?
Best Regards.
Slava

waross (Electrical) 8 May 08 20:09
How about using the existing PTs and setting the protection relays for 69 volts?
Bill
-------------------"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

scottf (Electrical) 8 May 08 20:45
waross...as long as not using for revenue metering, that should be perfectly acceptable.

(OP)
8 May 08 21:23
waross
I must be tired, you've lost me on this one??

waross (Electrical) 9 May 08 07:04
If you connect the existing PTs in wye instead of delta, the nominal output voltage will be 69 volts.
See if your relays will accept a 69 volt input.
You may be able to use the existing PTs at 69 volts.
Can you comment n this scheme davidbeach?
Thanks.
Bill
-------------------"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

waross:
If exiting arrangement is open delta as OP said, there are only two PTs. You can't just add a third PT on the 15kV
trunion. It needs to be replaced with a 3-pT trunion which would also require rewiring of intruments.
It is not as easy at it sounds, plus all the political issues it creates.

I am also not sure why so many PTs needs to be replaced??? Is there a oneline for this?
Is there a common gen bus which then parallels with the utility via utiltiy mains or each gen is connected to
individual utility service?
The utiltiy co. is only interested at the intertie connection which usually is the utility main breaker.
Plus answer to OP's original question is on Page 5-46 of the manual for SR-750 relay.

scottf (Electrical) 9 May 08 09:09
A 2-bushing VT with a "line-to-line" ratio with a 120 V rated secondary can be connected line-to-ground and will
have a 69 V rating on the secondary. As is mentioned, 3 VTs per point would need to be used.

Hi.
RBulsara:
"I am also not sure why so many PTs needs to be replaced??? Is there a oneline for this?
Is there a common gen bus which then parallels with the utility via utiltiy mains or each gen is connected to
individual utility service?
The utiltiy co. is only interested at the intertie connection which usually is the utility main breaker."
TxPowerEE :
From your SLD not so clear , are you have VT's on the BB or not.
If not, I see two options for you (of course, if your utilities will request 3xphase to ground VT's mandatory).
1. Replaced 4 sets of utilities VT's and add aux VT's for the phase siffting and synchronazing purpose.
2. More problematic option,but save for you many changes in the secondary wiring. add additional set of 3xVT's for
the protection only. Of course it's depend on the place.
Next option, poor option, but also possible use ( from time to time we used in old application).
If your 4 new relays installed on the same bus with generators, you can add one common set 3xVT's on the BB and
connect it in parallel between all 4 utilities CB's, original VT you will use for all other porpuses.
Best Regards.
Slava

I think most of the posts are going on a tangent here. It is not the question of voltage, etc.
The original question is why the utiltiy co is insisting on Wye PT. The answer to that is that the 67N fucntion is the
GE SR-750 relay would only work with Wye PT using voltage as the polarization source or an independent current
polarization source for detecting revesal of ground fault current. There is a very expensive way to get the current
polariztion source but PT is much easier and preferred by the utilties.
There are ways around meeting utiltiy's concern but they have to be worked out with them, not here. See my first
post in this thread.

busbar (Electrical) 9 May 08 20:16
It may be helpful to distinguish , in ANSI parlance, the difference between "open delta" and "broken
delta" ("Broken delta is the equivalent of a 3V0 filter where PT primaries are configured in grounded wye.) From
IEEE C57.13.3,

Nice diagram busbar.

Timesabroom (Electrical) 9 May 08 22:51
I strongly concur with the previous statements that phase to ground VTs are very important for ground fault
monitoring. Even if you have a system where it is possible to sense ground faults via current measuring schemes, it
is great to have a backup scheme.
Four more reason to avoid open delta VTs that I want to point out:
1) In directional (67) relays, the phase angle between Vo and Io is a means used for for direction to fault analyis,
With phase to phase VTs, you loose Vo and a method of sensing direction to fault. Even if you have other schemes,
such as negative sequence directional logic, there are some cases the other schemes do not work as well as Vo vs
Io.
2) If you have any Io flowing in your load, then you loose the power component associated with Io in your
metering. i.e., an alternate equation of 3 phase power is
P = 3*(V1xI1 + V2*I2 + V0*Io). If there is no Vo measurement, you loose the third element of the equation.

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RE: Open Delta PT vs Wye PT

RE: Open Delta PT vs Wye PT

RE: Open Delta PT vs Wye PT

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RE: Open Delta PT vs Wye PT

RE: Open Delta PT vs Wye PT

Yes Dave. It's issue

RE: Open Delta PT vs Wye PT

RE: Open Delta PT vs Wye PT

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RE: Open Delta PT vs Wye PT

Better do a slow and careful phasing check.

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RE: Open Delta PT vs Wye PT

RE: Open Delta PT vs Wye PT

RE: Open Delta PT vs Wye PT

RE: Open Delta PT vs Wye PT

It is not as easy at it sounds, plus all the political issues it creates.

RE: Open Delta PT vs Wye PT

RE: Open Delta PT vs Wye PT

RE: Open Delta PT vs Wye PT

RE: Open Delta PT vs Wye PT

RE: Open Delta PT vs Wye PT

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