BMS and ESD

Can we use one controller for BMS and ESD ?
Faizan AadilInstrument and Control Engineer at National Refinery Limited

i have a problem regarding BMS and ESD .....my contractor is saying that
due low quantity of I/Os he wants to use same controller for BMS and
ESD.....
Kindly help me on this whether its a good practice or non... and shall i go
for it ....??
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2 days ago
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Vinay Kumar, Ravi Doshi and 3 others like this
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Vinay
Vinay Kumar
"EPC' Proj Manager [Chem, Power, O&G] / HAZOP Leader / Process Engr; Gr
Founder/Owner -EPC Consultants Professionals
Top Contributor
Have a look at the following ABB catalog :...
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http://www.google.ae/url?
url=http://www08.abb.com/global/scot/scot296.nsf/veritydisplay/acaa9987a8649122c1257d0100
56e076/%24file/3BUS095645_B_en_Independent_High_Integrity_Safety_System.pdf&rct=j&frm=1
&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ei=bkz5VOmUF9L3asqLgfAM&ved=0CDUQFjAG&usg=AFQjCNEs7_Iu2RJ0pvp
35zudiLwaehH6GQ
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2 days ago
Vinay
Vinay Kumar
Top Contributor
Also see the recomendation in ..
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http://www.esotericautomation.com/emergency-shut-down-system.html
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2 days ago
Vinay
Vinay Kumar
Top Contributor
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In September 2014, Heide Refinery used two weeks of planned downtime at its pyrolysis plant to
migrate to new safety systems. Three redundant HIMax systems are in use as ESD, BMS and F&G
systems. A HIMatrix F35 system functions as pump controller.
For more detail have a look at
http://www.google.ae/url?url=http://www.hima.de/_Filenet/Download.asp%3FID%3D
%2520PU00010538&rct=j&frm=1&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ei=bkz5VOmUF9L3asqLgfAM&ved=0CB4
QFjAC&usg=AFQjCNEbvxmBRneQer27aA00HvR6ztM4nQ
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2 days ago
Faizan
Faizan Aadil
Instrument and Control Engineer at National Refinery Limited
I have read NFPA 8502 standard in which it is stated that ;
"4-3.2.3 Requirement for Independence.
4-3.2.3.1
The logic system performing the safety functions for burner management shall not be
combined with any other logic system.
4-3.2.3.3
The logic system shall be limited to one boiler only.
4-3.2.3.4
The burner management system shall be provided with independent logic, independent
input/output systems, and independent power supplies and shall be functionally and
physically separate from other logic systems (e.g., boiler control system)."
what does this standards mean??

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1 day ago
Vinay Kumar likes this
Vinay
Vinay Kumar
Top Contributor
BPCL's DCS & ESD spec
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http://www.google.ae/url?
url=http://bharatpetroleum.com/Admin/TenderRooms/UplodedFiles/T000002550_FileName_Boiler
%2520house%2520DCS%2520and%2520PLC%2520replacement%2520Appendix%2520II
%2520and
%2520IPP.pdf&rct=j&frm=1&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ei=APv6VMGqKIurU8avgagF&ved=0CDQQFjAG&
usg=AFQjCNEZOHpFqQygoI0f441V-viGnXCV7Q
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1 day ago
Himat Khimani
Himat Khimani , (Process Safety & Loss Prevention)
Process Safety Design Engineer - [Chartered Chemical Engineer, Certified Safety
Professional (CSP), PGDIS, CMIOSH ]
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BPCS and SIS shall be independent for fired process heaters / boilers. This should be inline with
NFPA 8502 and IEC 68511.
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1 day ago
Aditya
Aditya Desiraju
Chairman & Managing Director
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No, burner management is an independent controller to be dedicated to BMS only and shall have
triple redundancy. A TMR is best
ESD is critical to a plant and has to be separate. SIS is different controller.
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1 day ago
Himat Khimani
Himat Khimani , (Process Safety & Loss Prevention)
Process Safety Design Engineer - [Chartered Chemical Engineer, Certified Safety
Professional (CSP), PGDIS, CMIOSH ]
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TMR is used for SIS also.

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1 day ago
CHANDRAKANT
CHANDRAKANT MOHIKAR
Retired Co. Site Representative - Oil & Gas Projects QA
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Philosophy of Protection SHALL function independantly / stand alone without any

compramisation. ESD controller has to be separate, with additional ESD push button / as dynamic
key for ESDV at battery limit for fired equipment /heaters
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1 day ago
ulaga
ulaga nathan
Student at Anna University
Provide BMS controller separately for burner management even though it has less input and
outputs. Link this BMS to ESD via softlink.
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Now a days there are many SIS / BMS plc, for very low input and output are available.
Hence both SIS/BMS should be SIL certified
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1 day ago
Faizan
Faizan Aadil
Instrument and Control Engineer at National Refinery Limited
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thanks Mr Himat Khimani .... i was thinking same about it ... that process control system should
be separated from SiS but in SIS we can combine ESD , BMS and other safety syste- on single
controller.... m i right ?
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1 day ago
Vishal
Vishal Katkar
I&C Design Engineer at Archirodon Group N.V.
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Yes you are, the ESD (Boiler protection) and BMS can be combined on a single controller. No need
to use separate controllers or PLC's
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22 hours ago
Faizan A., Vinay Kumar and 1 other like this
Vishal
Vishal Katkar
The controller can be the same for both BMS and Boiler Protection (ESD). I have done this in a
previous project with SWCC for their brown field work at Al-Jubail Power Plant using the Siemens
S7-417F/H PLC. Though NFPA 8502 specifies about different logic systems than the "boiler control
system", the point here is that it specifically states boiler "CONTROL" and not boiler
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"PROTECTION" which is the ESD for the boiler, consisting of the logic for MFT and nothing else.
That is why we can use one controller and separate the logics for ESD and BMS by assigning
different processing times to the logics, this was possible with the Siemens Fail-safe System (part
of the T-3000 DCS). I would recommend to use the same PLC for the BMS and ESD. As per my
previous experience on Boiler Protection and Burner Managment systems, I have never seen two
separate hardware (controllers, PLC's or CPU's) for ESD and BMS.
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22 hours ago
Vishal
Vishal Katkar
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the ESD for the boiler is the MFT logic only, rest all logics are for BMS and the MFT logic is just a
huge "OR-gate" of all the critical signals in a 2v3 (FAIL) configuration. so only for having this part
of the logic to be executed in a single dedicated controller would be a waste of hardware
equipment, hence it would be better if you use a single controller for both BPS (ESD) & BMS. But
at the same time you also need to consider the number I/O's that form the BMS part of the logics,
the controller capacity should not be exhausted due high number of burner I/O's. The maximum
number of burners I have seen is 12, with Front Wall fired type furnaces as well as corner types,
but I am sure that there are other arrangements with more number of burners at different
elevations.
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14 hours ago
Linh
Linh Nguyen Van
Lead Instrument & Control Engineer at WorleyParsons
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It should be ok to combine both BMS and Boiler prt in one controller if the boiler is small with
limited no of burners as BMS logics are huge.
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14 hours ago
Arvind P., Vinay Kumar like this

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Can we use one controller for BMS and ESD ?

Faizan AadilInstrument and Control Engineer at National Refinery Limited

Also see the recomendation in ..

what does this standards mean??

TMR is used for SIS also.

Philosophy of Protection SHALL function independantly / stand alone without any

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