Reg's Thread...

live at the speed of Jazz

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Reg's Thread... live at the speed of Jazz

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Reg

02-28-2013, 09:16 PM

Hey jster... Fastest tempos... hmmm... 240 to 260 is pretty common. I don't really know what the fastest would be... I think 180 - 200 is
somewhat the base or reference tempo... medium. Most tunes are felt in 2 so the pulse is really never that fast. Some latin gigs in cut time are
burnin. I gig with this smokin B-3 player that starts tunes off at 300 and above and then speeds up... No charts, we just play, very live and fun
gigs. I think the next gig is May 3rd, Tom P from TOP might be sitting in on Tenor. I'll try and have some vids from the gig posted.
As far as note selection... just less fill between the melodic spaces. If there are complicated changes...I just do the best I can. I play arps all
the time, just not always chord tone arps. I'll try and think about that tonight... post something tomorrow.
Reg

Vladan

03-23-2013, 10:05 AM

ey Reg,
Quote:
... When we modal interchange that D- chord to Dmm ...

I see this expression "modal interchange" a lot, but am not sure what it really means.
Judged from quoted half sentence, it seam like I decide, on my free will, to use melodic minor, in place of ordinary minor?
That way I get 6, as in dorian, but also M7, that goes well with dominant function chord, V of that minor, as in harmonic minor.
If I move up min 3rd, and finger mm from there, I get b5, b7 and some more, in reference to original root of the minor.
If I'm correct, where above is different from adaptation of blues scale to get those same notes, like I currently do, is that I could harmonize
lines made of mm with stacked triads from mm, while if going from blues I'd have to search for apropriate out of scale extensions?
All that would be great thing if I could think like that. Unfortunately, I always think basic chord, then search for extensions, no mater how
common or odd they may be.
So, am I correct in my uderstanding, if I say:
- Deciding to use different scale = modal interchange
- Using notes from that new scale for chords to a tune, and playing from there = change of reference (in regard to original scale)
?
What I see as a problem, I don't have both 5 and b7 in same scale. b7 is so common that lot of people incorporate it in their chords by deafult,
so it'll most likely pop out and clash with that 6, unless I go from the 3rd up, but then I'd always have to force that b5 into blues. Or, I could
stay on original root, but always add b7 and alternate it with 6, like R'n'R/Boogie Woogie? Actualy I do it already, but from a blues scale
reference. Could a switching to mm reference, help my line playing cross from blues side to the jazz one, no matter what they're played over?
All this provided my initial judging was correct.

hed_b94

03-23-2013, 02:59 PM

How do you think one should approach ear training in regard to jazz?
I've done some of the regular "classical" ear tranining - hearing intervals, triads with inversions and some harmonic movement (mostly diatonic)
but obviously in jazz it's much more than that. How do we go beyond?

Reg

03-24-2013, 04:05 PM

Hey...
So Vladan... usually there are more organized methods for choice of using Modal Interchange... but I'm OK with "on my free will".
So say... A nat. min. modal interchange to A dorian or as as you used A melodic minor.
Using note organization of Amm... the V chord is E7 with 9, 11 and b13. Ok to keep your A harmonic min V chord,
E7 with b9,11 and b13.
If you move up min 3rd and use Amm from there... would be bIIImaj7#5 with 9,#11 and 13. (Cmaj7#5 with 9, #11 and 13. b5 could be from
#11... don't know where b7 comes from....
If your using Blue note references, which can be a organizational method of developing harmony... not clear of how your applying.

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But since your real reference seems to be Blue notes... you need to become aware of all the possible chords which reflect that Blue Note
reference. Chords built on any degree of any scale with blue notes added as method of developing harmonic organization.
Are the Blue note used as ornamentation... or are they used in an organizational method of developing Function.
You seem to have your harmonic system of organization... and then camouflage. Not right or wrong... just trying to help you understand
relationships from references... which lead to different development... possibilities of developments.
Anyway... If I'm going in wrong direction, get me back on track.
Reg
Hey hed-b94...
It's the same process... you just need to add jazz references. Notes and intervals are the same, right. The difference is with what you hear
them in reference to. With Jazz there is always... possibilities of in reference to.
What does that triad imply, or what could it imply. Voice leading and harmonic practice of traditional Maj/Min functional Harmony... has basic
guidelines. Jazz also uses those as guidelines and references... but also use other harmonic systems of organization. Different rules for creating
function or movement... and guidelines for resolution.
Short answer... become aware of standard jazz harmonic practice... with reference to standard traditional Maj/Min functional harmony
practice... and also in reference to standard Jazz harmonic practices ... they're different.
Reg

Vladan

03-24-2013, 05:44 PM

Thanks Reg,
I think this will prove helpfull. I still have to try it out, but one main idea I got from your post:
- Modal interchange is applied on tonic scale, but with dominant in mind. I always think from I or i-, while it seams I'd better think about V.
Extensions I poke about were in regard to mm over i-. You pointed out process is actually about extensions to V of that i-. O.K.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------To answer your questions:
b7 imention is b7 of minor chord I'd be playing mm from the b3 above.
Ex.: playing cmm over a-, ther's G in cmm which is b7 of A.
Problem with 5th I spoke about is also in regard of mm scale over original minor chord.
Ex.: ther's Eb note in cmm, while I need E. I amm over a-, I have E, but not G, but, I do have Gb and Ab.
Ab is good for E, while Gb is what I call 6 (of A). So each time I come to play Gb, ther's high propability it'll clash with ubiquitous 7 (G).
Further, looks like what I refer to as 6, is more correctly called 13.
Don't know if my reference are blue notes. As I said I always think from 1, but once uppon a time I realised b3 interval is essence of blues, so
one could almost always go a b3 up from just about any "in" note, stronger in the better, and then to another "in" note and sound almost
always good. I think of it as playing blues from any scale note. Something ike that. Then I found my way where to play so wanted b3 come
under my fingers, but I do not search for blue notes, rather I do for 1 in apropriate place.
So, even if I wanted to, above written won't let me deny - you say: "own reference then camouflage", that's not what I call it, but I could,
because it would be true. I'd not to loose it, as it's something similar to style, but to learn doing it proper way, too, as a backup.

Reg

03-29-2013, 08:09 PM

I posted this on a different thread... It might be useful...

The reference fingerings are posted below...
Hey Jadarite...
why do you use that fingering for a maj scale... what's the reference, the next question would be what are your default fingerings for the same
scale starting on each scale degree, same question, why those fingerings.
When you don't develop a base or default fingering system that covers the complete fret board for each scale... your going to have problems
and have questions like you asked.
Even though I use that example I posted as my default fingering reference for maj scale and all degrees of... I use all kinds of different
fingering for reasons....but those different fingerings still have reference to, and are based off my default fingerings.
What eventually happens... the fret board becomes grids or mechanical patterns which reflect what I choose. In your example of Abmaj or

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G#maj. When I hear or decide to use that harmonic reference, Abmaj... as I said my entire fret board becomes those fingering patterns... from
my Example.
What is cool... if I choose to hear or add another harmonic influence... I just drop the new harmonic grid on top of the existing or starting grid.
I can hear or physically see the relationships.
Example could be... I start with your Abmaj. which I choose to be Ionian, Then I decide to add Ab Lydian as my first relationship. I now hear
and see the two patterns.
Now I decide to drop F Dorian... from the Ab Lydian relationship and from that F Dorian I drop F min pentatonics as the next relationship...
1)Abmaj Ionian
2)Abmaj Lydian...(modal interchange)
3)Fmin Dorian ... (Fdorian is function sub of Ab Lydian)
4)F min pentatonics...(different harmonic application of same notes)
5) add blue note application to Fmin pentatonics
So I used harmonic concepts to create applications to pull from for creating relationships and developing them...
Improvisation...
But I performed using very physical applications applied to my fret board... How I realize what I'm hearing or creating... how I finger what I
hear.
Eventually the fingerings... the fret board becomes internalized, you think about it only if you choose to.

Basic maj scale fingerings from each scale degree...

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/image.../paperclip.png Attached Images http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/attac...fingerings.jpg

Reg

Vladan

03-29-2013, 08:25 PM

Quote:
Example could be... I start with your Abmaj. which I choose to be Ionian, Then I decide to add Ab Lydian as my first relationship. I now hear and see the two
patterns.
Now I decide to drop F Dorian... from the Ab Lydian relationship and from that F Dorian I drop F min pentatonics as the next relationship...
1)Abmaj Ionian
2)Abmaj Lydian...(modal interchange)
3)Fmin Dorian ... (Fdorian is function sub of Ab Lydian)
4)F min pentatonics...(different harmonic application of same notes)
5) add blue note application to Fmin pentatonics

Could this be it, a springboard example? I think I can find myself in this one.

Reg
I just got copy of one of my new tunes on coming CD......it not mastered yet, who knows when, but it's based on a tune I
composed on this thread back when Fep,(Frank) and I were getting into compositional BS...
Titled appropriately "Side Steppin"

04-02-2013, 05:33 PM
1 Attachment(s)

I don't even remember the session... I dig the piano solo.

Attachment 6634
Reg

Tom Painter

04-02-2013, 07:00 PM

Nice!
Reminds be of Kreisberg's twentyone a bit.

JohnRoss

04-02-2013, 08:42 PM

Oooh, yes.

Reg

04-03-2013, 11:39 AM

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Thanks for listening... I have one more, a ballad I composed for this sax dude...Called, "In Search Of Blue". I guess I'm
supposed to make comments for reference with mixing, any comments are welcome... beside put the tunes aside for a
week or so ... then throw them away,

2 Attachment(s)

Reg

Vladan

04-03-2013, 12:39 PM

Listening on headphones, comenting on In Search ... mix (no comments on music and playing).
Generally, I think it's good, sound is reckongnizable as Jazz.
Sax and guitar are Ok.
Dont like snare sound and rim sound, somehow they're not soft enough. Too natural in a way, while certainly EQed and compressed = it ended
bit unnatural. Something like that.
Is this real piano, or synth? I can not decide.
Sometimes I fell like I'm inside drum kit, which is inside this piano?
Like there are some phase issues ie. microphones should have been further or closer appart, or better isolated from instrument to instrument,
or everything's flanged, or chorussed a bit too much.
None of the observed issues has any influence on perception of music and performance ie. I don't give a **** about suchthings.

Reg

04-03-2013, 08:03 PM

Thanks Vladan...
The piano was real... big and covered with insulated blankets... I'm sure it was a good grand.
As I remember we were all in booths... Pn in big room.
I thought the snare might be a bit bright... but I believe that is the effect the enginner is after. I also want to hear more Guitar...
Thanks for checking out. I'll pass on comments...
Reg

Vladan

04-03-2013, 09:21 PM

Ah, blankets. The sound was right, but it lacked "noises", blankets explained it. Also means player can really control himself.
I don't know, that phasing thing, maybe that's just .mp3 playing games? Ther's this natural livenes to it, that's good thing, I think. Nothing
fauveistic to it.

sutra1

04-05-2013, 03:03 AM

Reg, could you tell me what looper you use? And if those drum presets were stock. Thank You

Reg

04-05-2013, 09:58 AM

I use a DigTech JamMan pedal type... The drums are from one of my keyboards... stock. Garage Band has some great stock drums that you
can play with and loop. I keep it very simple...

sutra1

04-06-2013, 02:14 AM

Thanks Reg for the quick reply. Slowly but surely grasping and using your ideas so thanks for hangin with this thread. ha ha What good are big
muscles when your life is hanging by a thread? Ha ha good stuff man!

Reg
Though I would post a tune that i had to read through... at a recording session. There are a few threads going on about
sight reading... Most know how I stand on SR... it's a skill you need. But that's just my personal opinion.

04-06-2013, 12:59 PM
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The tunes a pretty standard sample of what's expected...

The pianist composed the tune and arrangement. Sax and Gui doubled melody for A sections except for written out counter lines. Piano took B
section, pretty standard. The sax player and I read through together 1st and decided on articulations etc... then practiced one time through...
stopped to make a few changes and then band played tune. Two takes, 1st time through was really just practice, get the form to feel right, try
and make solos lock... came out OK... would be much better if we played together more. We all just took one chorus and traded 4's with
drums. There just isn't the time or $.

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So anyway here is the recording...

Reg

04-07-2013, 11:05 AM

How about some input as to what to post on... general or specific...Whatever...

Reg

FatJeff

04-07-2013, 12:34 PM

Hi Reg,
How about a little insight on your thought process behind comping? I've been working quite a bit on mine. I'm at a point now where I have
some choices on which voicings or what approach I want to use for a particular trip through a tune. Given the fact that an accompanist
generally comps for several choruses of a song form while the soloist does his thing, I've been playing with the idea of comping successive
choruses from simple and subtle, to more complex & fuller. So for instance, chorus 1 might be very subdued 2- note punches (focusing on
3rd/7ths); chorus 2 might introduce a 3rd voice to those diads (introducing extensions or alterations); chorus 3 might use some standard 4-note
drop-2s and drop-3s with more dynamic, moving lines; and chorus 4 might start using substitutions, voicings with minor and major 2nds, 4ths,
etc. What do you think of this idea, and more generally, what's your thought process behind comping?

Vladan

04-07-2013, 01:37 PM

@Reg
1. This last tune is like it came directly from the Realbook, to classic to comment on,. I think your originals are much more original. I liked the
mix on this last one better than on previous 2. That's a sign, in the end, everything will come to sit just like it should.
2. That favourite tick lick of your's, when you ascend with something like arrpegio, and descend with a very fast scale like thing, that descending
part, what is it exactly? Is it just a scale of current chord, or the previous, or the next? I know it's part of Jazz to play somewhat muffled, and
you spoke quite a bit about camouflage, but it must have staryed from somewhere (current reference, as I think you call it)?
@Fatjeff
I like your question, hopefully Reg will shed some light. I'd to say, I don't think comping should build up. If we take solo will propably build up,
it'd lead to more clashing should comping build up at the same time. I think comping should stay more less steady in overall complexity, with
points of more complex and less complex chunks moving arround the form. Something like that.

Bigmagic

04-07-2013, 02:34 PM

Reg, I'd like to hear more about your setup as well, strings, guitars, amps and thoughts on venues. @Fatjeff count me in on the comping as
well Reg.
Let us know when that CD comes out.

Reg

04-07-2013, 02:59 PM

Hey Jeff
The cool thing... your thinking about what your going to play, which will develop into... Jeff's bag of approaches to comping. After going through
the organizational process of putting together mechanical plans of how to comp. You will have a library to choose from.
They will go from mechanical to internal... you will feel and hear them and what you play will become instinctive... as well as if you choose, a
cogitative thought process.
I always start with a basic harmonic analysis of tune... reflective of how the ensemble performs the tune. This is my standard mental process...
I can from listening as the performance unfolds... create my analysis.
That's my basic reference... I generally give soloist space up front to see if they have a concept or direction they want to go... generally live
jazz isn't a soloist and we're the backing track. So we interact and are usually part of the improve.
Harmonic reference... the tonal reference to the tune as well as target tonal references,(different changes in the tune), as well as any given
point of a tune... are going on all the time. I don't worry about which pitches I use... ie, 3rds and 7ths... there heard whether I play them or
not.
Every chord change is a complete structure... all the notes don't all need to be played, but which ones I use need to help create and develop
the relationship the soloist is using or help create possible choices for the soloist to develop.
I am a lead line player, my lead line should reflect the harmonic context... the changes or reference the soloist is implying or again... possibilities
for the soloist. I play lots of notes... and usually have a busy part... But where and how I play is as important as what I play.
Tunes have a Harmonic Rhythm... the chordal or harmonic accent pattern of the tune... If the tune is a I VI II V... there is an accent pattern of
the strong attacks. Where the harmony falls... If that's what is going on... I work around that harmonic rhythm... The I VI II V... what ever
version the chords are. I then create relationships with those chords... they become constant tonal targets.... and I use how I approach them to
create the effect I want the tune to have for the soloist. I can leave the tune very vanilla and have a complex weak side of that harmonic
rhythm harmonic concept going on.

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The soloist can play on original changes and what I do is help create more layers of relationships for the soloist's improve interact with... or the
soloist can also play with these relationships. Or I can always just play vanilla changes and rhythmically create desired effect of soloist... as
improve develops.
But the point is I have organized pre planed concepts... like your note addition concept. And because they have become internalized... they can
change and still work.
Like I've always said... The Form of whatever you do is always the strongest basic starting reference.
Sorry to go on so much... but these concepts are not one liners.
Reg

Reg

04-07-2013, 04:04 PM

Pretty standard jazz set up.

Guild artist, 94. I have high action...use Thomastic-Infeld... Jazz swing, 13 to 53.
Most of the time I play through AER ... usually my compact 60... on stand.
For most gigs it all works well, get miked for bigger venues. I do add another amp below my AER when I need bigger stage presence...
depending on ensemble. When traveling use what ever the house has... I own them all, so usually no big deal.
I'm a very simple down the middle musician. I cover whatever needs to be covered. I'm playing Bass a couple times this coming week at gigs...
just because I read well and can cover different feels. I stay in the pocket.
Thanks for interest on new CD... I'll give out a bunch when their finished.
Reg

FatJeff

04-11-2013, 10:08 AM

Thanks for the reply Reg. Lots to consider there. It really is a process isn't it? :-)

Reg

04-12-2013, 10:29 AM

Hey Jeff... sure is.

targuit

05-15-2013, 06:28 AM

Ciao, Reg! New to the forum, but with fifty years of guitar playing experience (sigh...). Love your technique, but sometimes I think the task of
trying to explain how one plays and hears music is just so...ineffable...that all attempts founder. So this is just my existential crying out in the
dark, but bear with me.
I studied classical guitar from the age of eleven or so for about four or five years, then played rock, country, fusion, and on through my
twenties and beyond jazz guitar. I also play keyboards decently, though I'm self taught on piano. And while I have a very good education in
music theory and all, in the end I believe that it mostly comes down to what Joe Pass said - just learn songs.
I think you might agree (perhaps not) that when you play you have to be in the moment. Just as your thread is entitled "live at the speed of
jazz", I always say that improv is music at the speed of intuition. If you have to "think about" what you are playing, you lose the mojo. You
have to 'dream' the music. By which I mean "surrender" your conscious super-ego critical function and turn the wheel, so to speak, over to the
subconscious. Analyzing how this process works at the speed of intuition is difficult to put into words, but for me I hear the melody in my head,
perhaps as 'target tones' kind of like a point of departure and arrival and let my subconscious connect the dots and find the musical path in
between. As you point out, this requires total awareness of the fret board, deep knowledge of chord structures and voice leading, and fluency in
terms of fingering and technique - all acquired over time and experience to the degree that it becomes intuitive. Of course, over the years I
have developed my own tricks or principles that serve me mostly to help distill my playing in the quest to make every note and phrase mean
something coherent and hopefully beautiful, like poetry. But they are so simple.

From a practical point of view, I found over the years that harmonizing Segovia's major and minor diatonic scales in conjunction with learning
chords and inversions in various positions on the fret board, and then applying that knowledge to actual jazz standards was key to developing
fluency and voice leading skills. I understand modes, various scales, harmonic analysis and such - but when the rubber meets the road in actual
playing, the theory and analysis and all the rest just falls away. I have to dream the music in the moment. I had to learn to 'surrender' to my
subconscious and to become the vessel for the music. The analogy I use is like dreaming. A dream is a kind of creative organization of our
thoughts, experiences, and desires. As such it can be quite wild or strange, but the theme and sequence of the dream has a kind of
subconscious organization. Playing music is the same.
I know this post strays from the discussion, and I give you so much credit, both for your obvious musical talent, knowledge, and skill, but also
for your generosity of time and effort in trying to explain the ineffable. I've been listening lately to Keith Jarrett's trio on YouTube, rediscovering
his music which I've ignored for a number of years. But I am inspired by some of his performances over the years of standards where he just
reaches down inside the music and his heart and brings forth a beauty that is profound. And in the end it's not about the technical analysis, but
it's about singing from the heart. And that is what is in the end the ineffable thing that we musicians must seek on our personal journey. Just so

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hard to explain.
Jay
06-26-2013, 06:23 AM

jster

Hey Reg,
I think I saw you write or say that you "finally" got yourself BIAB. Given that you play tunes so many different ways, do you have different BIAB
files for different versions of the same tune?
Thanks
06-26-2013, 09:46 AM

Reg
Hey Jster...
not really, I don't really use Biab very much. I thinks it's great and a very good tool for practicing performance etc...
Just don't have the time. And I don't like having to search for different feels or styles for backing tracks.
I don't have the skills of using it down very well.

01-03-2014, 02:21 PM

Vladan
Ping!
Probably busy mixing CD?

01-07-2014, 01:20 PM

Boston Joe
Hi Reg, et al.

I've been reading through this discussion for the past couple of days, and while I have no doubt that there's a lot of great information here, I'm
having trouble because Reg's style of exposition does not match up with the way I learn. So basically, I'm going to try to recap what Reg as
said, as I understand it, and if I'm wrong, I'd really appreciate it if someone would correct me. So... Autumn Leaves.
Original chords (First phrase)
A-7 / D7 / GMaj7 / CMaj7
First round of subs - Melodic Minor
A-M7 / D7 alt / GMaj7#5 / CMaj7#5
Second round of subs - Diatonic
A-M7 E7#11 / D7alt G#7#11 / GMaj7#5 Bm7 / CMaj7#5 Em7
Final subs - tritones
A-M7 Bb7 / G7 / D7 Bm7 / Em7 CMaj7

Am I on the right track there?

04-18-2014, 08:40 AM

Liarspoker
How is that CD coming along Reg and where can we get a copy?

04-18-2014, 08:55 AM

Scott Jones
Phenomenal thread, Reg!

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