t

.
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I
.
" instant success" products, such as chord attachment s for pianos and automatic light
meters for cameras. "These devices," concludes the study, "come close to making a pro
out of a dubber."
D ISCUSSI O N
SELZ : I have a numher of questions here whi ch I woul d like the panel to discuss. ques-
tions I had prepared before ... but before doing so, or perhaps instead of doing so, I will
just take the place oft he moderator and ope n it r ight up toyou people.
GELD ZAHLER: I'd like to ask Mr. Kunitz a question. I ' d like to ask Mr. Kunitz what he
feels the role of the Museum of Modern An, or the art magazines and so on is, if it's not
to record and to present to the publi c what is going on in the contemporary art world. If
pop art is being done in New York City, if the Museum of Moder n Art is involved in the
hurly-burly, in the course of twenti eth-century art and its most currenr manifestations as
it has been since 1929 when it was founded, how could it possibly ignore something like
this?
KUNITZ: 1don't think for a moment that the Museum should ignore what's going on,
especially a museum of modern art . But there are obviously principles of selectivity and
of timing that enter into any active choice. I do have a feeling that in this terrible effort to
get everything even bifore it happens, something strange happens to the landscape of art
in our time.
GF. l.nZAHLER: Then you feel modern art becomes modern in rime but not right away?
KUN I'l'Z: Well, the old debate of the difference between contemporary and modern is,
l think, an exhausted one, and I don' t want to get into that at this moment, but obviously
(do beli eve in a principl e ofvalue.
KRAMER: May I ask Mr. Geldzahl er a question on that? Do yo u then conceive the Tole
of the Museum to be Like that of a kind of three-dimensional tape recorder, giving us back
what is currently being seen a few blocks away?
CELOZAHLER: I ,viU agl'ee that there llas bee n some confusion in recent years be-
tween the gal leries and the Mnseum of Moder n Art. The Ad Reinhardt retrospecti ve was
given at the Section II, the big Di ckinson show was at the G:raham Gallery. not at one of
the museums where it should be. the " Si.;xteen Ameri cans" was here, the " 35 Painters un-
der 35," Or whatever it was - a lot of whom didn't have galler ies - was at the Whitney,
and as far as thac goes, I would agree. But my feeling is that I pointed out the fa ct that this
all happened terribly quickly (instant art history, etc.), but it is a fact that it has been con-
side red and seen as a movement, and that the Musenm of Modern AIt with its dedication
to eoutemporary an was made aware of it immediately, and conldn't ignore it . I just feel it
was a compelling issue, and had ro be engaged.
KUN fT Z: But if the motto becomes "Make it new)" and not only " Make it new," but
" Make it new fa st," and if obviously the rol e of the Museum is, as you see it , to introduce
t be new, then the sure way o[being admitted to t he Museum is to make it new faster t han
anybody else. And this becomes , it seems to me, a merry-go-round.
STEINBERG: There is no shortage in the world today of museums, even museums ded-
icated to modern art (I' m thinkiug. for instance, of the Tate Gallery in London), whi ch
make a practi ce ofwai cing until quality can be sifted. The Tate Gallery now is trying ro
raise I don' t know how mauy hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy a Matisse. (They' re
very short on Matisse. They missed Out on him.) And 1 would like to remind ever ybody
here of a remark of Mr. Alfred Barr'::, . who is Director of Museum Collections, and I
76
quoted it once before fror
ward int ellige nce and hu
temporary art. Mr. Barr 2
out to be valid in retrosp(
think of art-buying in th
well , a nd perhaps the Mu
think that the words that
there before it happens.
they ar e supposed to me'
and they ar e clearly rear.1
say when you say "before
KRAMER: May Tmak
pl etely ignoring the Tol e
It is its responsibil ity as
pIe are objecting to.
GELDZ AHL ER : It is t(
very much involved in th
STEINBERC: Hilton,
to play in making hi stor)
of power. The Museum i
against God knows ever
gress. And now that the
Museum has very tough
KR AMER: Not reaJJy.
STEIN8ERC: \Vell , it
not tough enough, ther
and the others, are s h
KUNlTZ: But you reI'
STEINBERG: No, I ar
and other museums, aJ
equally, in power play.
KRAME R: No.1 don'
STEINBERC: You ca
certain art and thls hAS
KRAMER: Oh yes yo
Gf.LDZAHLER : Mr.
Moder n An slep out fo
KRA ME R: Yes, I see
ASHTON : Hil toJJ , W
always thought. that ar
gf! nre or art, why don' t
SELl: I think mayt
one question that I'd
raised, thac I' d like to I
cessiri es for anything I
tile experience. Now, i
experi ence possible w
i tse lf? Without any i ~
Isaid before that the questi ons about the art smlus of a work thac 1S presented Co us, de-
pend not merely on analysis of certain inherent charactf' ri Slic3, but may al so dt :pend on
the naLure of the spectamr's response, this would imply that before I can answer [he
question " Is this a work of art or not?" I want [Q have all the data in. Now the picture it-
sclfis part of the data, obviously. The rest of the data will be my reaction ro it, the full ex-
periCllcc ufic. And this means that I must be interested in the lUnd of reacti on a work
elieit'i. Not eveTY work elicits a reaction from me, obviously. And I know for instance, in
reading - I have a certain advantage here over Mr. Kramer because I have his article that
he wrote in Nation. And the article is. as everything Mr. Kramer writes, exceedingly
intelligent. 1 disagree with about go percent of it. BUl I disagree with the method. And
Ihe mcth(Jd is evident , for instance, when he begins to describe the show at the Janis
Gallcry. He says: "It is full of thi ngs to talk ahout. There is a smaJl refrigerator whose
door opcns to the sound of a fire siren. There is an old-fashioned lawn mower joined to a
painting on cauvas. There are coJJections of old sabers and discarded eye-glasses under
glas!i. There aJ:e even paincings, like you know, with paint on canvas, of pies and sand-
\\'iches and canned soup ... " and jc goes on listing things. Now, at no point is
any indication that Mr. Kramer submitted to anyone of objects singly. Mr.
Kramcr is the person J have in mind who makes a p:<-;ueral rapid slIIvey and is interested
in the genf'faJizarion about the common featores. 'I'his J vaJid way of doing it. It is not
the oilly way of doing ic, and it is one that 1suspect for my own purposes, because it
will never yield an answer [Q the question whether an individual wOTk is art or not. Now
for myself, 1feel pretty certain that a good many of the exhibits in the Janis show were
not arc.
KRAMER: How do you know that?
S1'1N"BERC: This is entirely a matter of ... [cut off)
KRAMER: And if they aren't art, what are they?
sn: INRERG: Perhaps I should modify chi s. They are art in so far as things produced-in
the art classes in schools, from first grade up, are arc, because they are art classes. In so
fllf as work done in the art depaTtment of the layout department, where the aTt editor lays
things OUt on a magazine - in so faT as this is art , this is perhaps the kind of thing t hat
some of the follower s of pop art will also produce. Therefore, if r say, offhand, that I sus-
pect that they are not art , they may be only that kind ofthing.
KRAMER: Alow form o[ar t.
STEINBERG: Alow form orart - yes, or I think for ill st:loce . .. [cutoff)
!(RAMER: But nOt exactly non-art.
STEINBERG: \'Vhat is non-art?
KRAMER: Well , that's what I' m asking you, because you are the only member of this
panel who has declared himselJ as being uoceTtain as to whether these objects are art ob-
jects. And if they're not art objects, you mUSt have anocheT category that you place tbem
in. Is it e>..--per ience, or intellectualism?
STEINBERC: WeU, they could be attempts to create ar t objects, which misfire, couldn't
they?
KRAMER: Yes -
STEINBERG: Yes
KRAMER : Still an,
SELZ: May I bring up another point? A poiut that has been discussed comparatively
little on thi s panel. We picked the term pop art. We might have ci:l ll ed it New Realism as
they did in the Sidney Janis GaJlery, 01' New Dada. And tlus New Dada thing interests me.
79