M: Yeah, exactly. People get the God they deserve.

BR: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You can't hand those kind of people an elitist ideol
ogy and say "Do what thou wilt." Because they don't have the strength to carry i
t through; they don't have the intelligence to organise their life that way. The
y're happier under some form of oppression. ( think people really thrive under o
ppression and they just flounder under conditions of liberty.
M: Most people need to be led, they need everything set out in black and white,
everything written down in simple rules.
BR: Exactly. There's nothing wrong with that. I used to be against that. I used
to think, oh that's the kind of oppression that's keeping people from attaining
their real potential.
What I basically see as being the problem is that we have reached a point where
all life oriented values have been inverted. In the past dominant culture was di
ctated by sadist, today dominant culture is dictated by masochists. And everyone
suffers because of it. It kills the soul and warps the psyche.
When you talk about mans culture, all I have to ask is what man and which culture?
There is no culture today except a money culture, a consumer culture. True cultu
re is the outward manifestation of mans inner being. It represents the visible, t
angible expression of his truest soul oriented values. Where is that today? Its n
early extinct, except for a few isolated outposts that you really have to search
to find. As for what to weed out or cultivate I would obviously say cultivate wh
atever empowers you personally, whatever minimizes any influence exercised over
you by the dominant culture. Weed out whatever hinders you or whatever threatens
in any way to subvert your instinct. Of course, this is all on a personal level
, because thats where personal power begins, right? In your own life. The present
world of humanity is way beyond the point where it could be redeemed by weeding
out certain aspects and fixing up certain others.
FASCISM AGAINST CHRISTIANITY: THE GREAT LIBERATION
Julius Evola (Translation from Imperialismo pagano, Atanor, Todi-Roma 1928)
"Let us conclude.
Today we must absolutely put a stop to Christianity.
Everything in it is incompatible with and contradictory to the ideals, the moral
s, the vision of the world and of man that would enable a race to bring about th
e resurrection of the empire.
Our sleep has lasted long enough. All the possible compromises and variations ha
ve been exhausted. It is time to say "Enough!" No more of Christianity embraced
as a whole, in the totality of all its forms! Thus:
On an ideal and moral level, it is time to unmask Christianity's enormous doctri
nal bluff and to refuse to allow it to continue to parade around loaded up with
all the values that have been superstitiously and unconsciously attributed to it
.
This is precisely my intent: to hold such a trial, demanding that every account
to be scrutinized with inflexible severity, that all cards be placed openly on t
he table, and that every way out and every compromise be barred in advance. At s
take are not more or less anticlerical polemics but rather a serious, objective
examination, unbiased by feeling and belief. A cool-headed examination should su
ffice to blunt the ecstatic thrill and to unmask the true poverty and inferiorit
y of the Christian vision of the world and of man....
The "myth" of the crucified God-man who suffers and loves will be opposed that o
f the man-God, a being radiating light and power, the summit of an imperial etho
s. To feelings of dependence and lack will be opposed a feeling of sufficiency;
to the will to equality, the will to difference, distance, hierarchy, and aristo
cracy. To the mystical communist promiscuity will be opposed firm individuality;
to the need for love, happiness, peace, and consolation, the heroic contempt fo
r all this and law of pure will and absolute action. To Christianity's provident
ial vision will be opposed the tragic conception whereby man stands alone facing
the contigencies of nature such that either he must redeem himself or redemptio
n will forever elude him. Do away with "sin" and "bad conscience" brashly heap a
ll responsibilities upon one's shoulders, bar the door to any escape, fortify th
e innermost spirit.
No more "brothers" or "fathers" but instead a fully autonomous individuals, self
-enclosed as if each were a separate world, rock, or peak, individuals clothed o
nly in their strength or in their weakness, each and every one operating like an
independent combat post that defends a distinctive quality, life, dignity, uneq
ual strength, indomitable force. No more subjection to the need to "communicate"
, and to be "understood" or to fraternal bonds or to the sensual pleasure of lov
ing and of feeling loved as equals. All are subtly corrupting and violent forces
that weaken aristocracy and individuality. On the contrary, the incommunicabili
ty must be celebrated in the name of absolute purity and respect. Stronger force
s and weaker forces, the one alongside or against the order, loyally, coldly, ac
knowledging one another thanks to the discipline of the spirit that burns within
but produces an exterior rigid and tempered like steel, forces magnificently in
fused with the immeasurability of the infinite as found in feats of war and on t
he battlefield : (this is the ideal). A state of absolute generosity and absolut
e cruelty insure that some men and races ascend, while others fall with a thud.
Nothing "infinite". Precise relations, order, cosmos, hierarchy. Solar and suffi
cient beings, masters who are far-sighted, fearful, distant, and solitary; who,
instead of taking in, give out an overabundance of light and power, who resolute
ly incline toward ever more dizzying intensities within a hierarchical chain of
being that comes not from above but from the dynamic natural interconnection bet
ween their natures.
"How beautiful they are, how pure are these free forces not yet corrupted by the
spirit!" wrote the young Nietzsche after an ascent during a storm. In the place
of Nietzsche's "not yet", I would substitute "no longer corrupted by the spirit
" in the present context, the word "spirit" meaning the unreal: an outer crust o
f feelings, hopes, doctrines, beliefs, "values", sensations, words, sensual plea
sures, and human emotions. But the meaning remains the same. The world is to be
cleansed, returned to its pre-Christian state. It is to be returned to a free, o
verabundant, essential state within which nature is not yet nature or the spirit
, in which "things" and "forms" do not exist except as powers; in which every in
stant of life is a heroic event, made up of acts, symbols, commands, magical ges
tures, and rituals, accompanied by great waves of sound, light, and terror.
This is our truth and this is the threshold of our great liberation: the end of
faith and the world's emancipation from God. No "heaven" will hover over the lan
d, gone will be "providence", "reason", "good", and "evil", masks for the terrif
ied, pallid escapes for pallid souls. At last, those who think themselves men, u
naware that they are sleeping gods, will be left to themselves: everything, all
around, will return to a state of freedom; everything will finally breathe. The
weak will collapse. The strong will assert themselves and will be rekindled as t
he "holy race of the kingless" of the ancient Gnostic oracles; the race of "thos
e who are", of the unchained and the unburdened, of reedemed justifiers of the w
orld, lords of necessity and suffering. "
"Der einzige Weg es zu tun, ist es zu tun." George Stark
THE ABARAXAS FOUNDATION "MANIFESTO"
MAN IS A DESTROYER.
HIS DESTRUCTION IS VAST.
HIS DESTRUCTION IS ALL ENCOMPASSING BUT IT IS UNIQUELY HUMAN.
HIS IS NOT THE JOYOUS SELF-CONFIDENT DESTRUCTION OF THE BARBARIAN.
NOR IS IT THE MATTER-OF-FACT AND PURPOSEFUL DESTRUCTION OF A PREDATOR
FULFILLING IT'S NATURAL IMPERATIVE.
MAN'S DESTRUCTION IS THE SOUR BY-PRODUCT OF LIFE IN DYSFUNCTION.
MAN'S DESTRUCTION FOLLOWS THE RHYTHM OF LIFE OUT OF BALANCE.
MAN DESTROYS HIS OWN LIFE WHILE ALSO DESTROYING ALL LIFE ON EARTH.
NEITHER ADMITTING TO HIS DESTRUCTION NOR EVEN RECOGNIZING IT.
MAN HAS SQUANDERED HIS POWERS AND OUR SCORN FOR HIM HAS GROWN BOUNDLESS.
BY ITS PITIFUL ACTIONS MANKIND HAS DEMONSTRATED ITS UNWORTHINESS.
LET THE DESTRUCTION IT HAS UNLEASHED DEVOUR IT- AN EYE FOR AN EYE, A
TOOTH FOR A TOOTH, A STRIPE FOR A STRIPE.
LET US NOT MISUSE THE SACRED GIFT OF DESTRUCTION.
LET US VIEW IT IN ITS TRUE LIGHT THAT WE MAY EMBRACE IT.
DESTRUCTION DOES NOT STAND OPPOSED TO CREATION.
DESTRUCTION IS AN ALLY OF CREATION, AND BOTH ARE NECESSARY FOR LIFE TO FUNCTION
AND FLOURISH.
DESTRUCTION CAN NO LONGER BE PERMITTED TO MOVE OUTSIDE THE WILL OF LIFE.
IT MUST REGAIN ITS RIGHTFUL PLACE IN THE ORDER.
IT MUST BE PUT TO THE SERVICE OF THOSE WHO SERVE THE WILL OF LIFE.
LET THE STRONG BEAR WITNESS TO MY MESSAGE.
LET THE STRONG HEED MY WORDS.
TAKE UP THE MIGHTY POWERS OF DESTRUCTION, FOR THEREIN DWELLS THE POWER OF LIFE.
WIELD IT WISELY, AND WIELD IT RUTHLESSLY
ORDER IS DIVINE.
HAIL THE ORDER.
HAIL THE WHEEL OF THE LAW. "
"Gehe nicht weg von dir.Wenn ntig, lebe gg. alles, was dich von dir trennt."
"Kreativitt findet nur statt, wenn wir etwas, das in uns ist, auerhalb unser zum L
eben erwecken. Unter dem "Geist der Kreativitt", ist der Lebensgeist zu verstehen
, den man einer Sache einhaucht." Daniel Coleman
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of reality."
"Der Knstler ist von seinem Kunstwerk zu trennen.Man kann nicht erwarten, die gle
ichen "bernatrlichen" Elemente, die man in seinem Kunstwerk findet,bei ihm selbst
wiederzufinden."
"Wenn ein Mensch mit einer gnzlich anderen Lebensauffassung konfrontiert wird, hlt
er diese fr "verrckt" oder"irrational" oder "kindisch", whrend er die eigene fr "lo
gisch" hlt.Die Intensitt des Bedrfnisses nach einem Orientierungsrahmen erklrt eine
Tatsache, die schon viele Forscher, die sich mit dem Menschen befassten in Ersta
unen gesetzt hat,nmlich wie leicht es den Menschen fllt,der Faszination irrational
er Doktrinen politischer oder religiser oder auch anderer Art zu verfallen, obwoh
l es sich fr jemanden, der nicht unter ihrem Einfluss steht,ganz offensichtlich u
m wertlose Konstrukte handelt.Je mehr eine Ideologie vorgibt,ALLE Fragen widersp
ruchslos zu beantworten,um so attraktiver ist sie.Der Mensch braucht einen Gegen
stand fr seine totale Hingabe.Er braucht einen Gegenstand der Verehrung als Brenn
punkt all seines Strebens und als Basis seiner effektiven-und nicht nur nach auen
hin proklamierten-Werte.Wenn er sich ber sein isoliertes Ich hinaus einem Ziel h
ingibt,transzendiert er sich selbst und verlsst den Kerker der absoluten Ichbezog
enheit." Erich Fromm
"Viele Leute behaupten, sie wrden nur ihrem gesunden Menschenverstand trauen und
merken nicht,dass auch ihr Weltbild von ihnen extra so eingerichtet ist,dass es
mit der Gesellschaft konform geht. So entsteht auch fr diese "Rationalisten" Orie
ntierung."
"Um das Erlebnis der Extase zu erreichen, bedarf es der eigenen Kraft der absolu
ten Wut."
"Wer mehr wei, ist schwieriger zu beherrschen."
"Der Sinn des Lebens ist das Leben selbst-Der Sinn des Lebens bist du. Was knnte
es sonst sein?" Michael Barnett
"Angst macht unfrei." Adam Seigfried
"Faith= Belief without evidence in what`s told by one who speaks without knowled
ge."
"Most people die sooner than they think."
"The biggest cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid ppl are so s
ure about things and the intelligent folks are so full of doubts."
"Es ist auch nicht gerade logisch von einem irdischen Jammertal auf ein himmlisc
hes Wohlergehen zu schlieen. Wird da nicht Gerechtigkeit manipuliert und in ein j
enseitiges Nichts abgeschoben, statt hier und heute eingefordert?" Horst Herrman
n
"Vertraue nur einer Statistik, die du selber geflscht hast."
"Der schlimmste Weg, sich selbst zu verletzen, ist sich selbst zu limitieren."
"Fumes from our chalice of demonic victory shall waft towards the heavens with h
ate. The watery tears of angels fuel our blazing scorn as the holy lament their
world destroyed in flames. Vengeance from below will enshroud the true lords of
the earth." The writ of satan
"Menschen sind wertlos und dumm. Sie sind geschaffen, um einem Fhrer zu folgen."
Burzum
"All the world is a stage and we're all merely actors."
"Moden mitmachen?Trends?Florierende Strmungen? Seit ich selbststndig denke, nein."
"Weder unsere Kenntnisse, noch unsere Einsichten werden jemals durch Vergleichen
und Diskutieren des von Anderen Gesagten sonderlich vermehrt werden: denn das i
st immer nur so, als ob man Wasser von einem Gef in ein anderes giet. Nur durch eig
ene Betrachtung der Dinge selbst kann Einsicht und Kenntnis wirklich bereichert
werden: denn sie allein ist die stets bereite und stets nahe liegende lebendige
Quelle. Demnach ist es seltsam anzusehen, wie seinwollende Philosophen stets auf
dem ersteren Wege beschftigt sind und den anderen gar nicht zu kennen scheinen,
wie sie es immer vorhaben mit dem, was dieser gesagt hat und was wohl jener geme
int haben mag; so dass sie gleichsam, stets von Neuem, alte Gefe umstlpen, um zu se
hen, ob nicht irgendein Trpfchen darin zurckgeblieben sei; whrend die lebendige Que
lle vernachlssigt zu ihren Fen fliet. Nichts verrt so sehr wie Dieses, ihre Unfhigkeit
und zeiht ihre angenommene Miene von Wichtigkeit, Tiefsinn und Originalitt der Lg
e."
"Daher lsst eine wahre Philosophie sich nicht herrausspinnen aus bloen, abstrakten
Begriffen; sondern muss gegrndet sein auf Beobachtung und Erfahrung, sowohl inne
re, als auch uere.(...)Philosophie ist kein Algebra-Exempel." Schopenhauer
"Wenn man nicht radikal genug ist, besteht stets die Gefahr zu scheitern." Dr. B
erd Schedlitz
"Der Durchschnittsmensch reagiert und denkt mechanisch, d.h. unbewusst, er lsst a
lle Eindrcke ungeprft zu sich herein, bernimmt sie, und denkt von ihnen aus weiter,
indem er sich mit ihnen identifiziert. So wird er in der Gewalt des Treibriemen
s uerer Umstnde zum Spielball des Lebens, zu einer Funktion der tglichen Lebens- und
Sachzwnge, zum Sklaven jeder negativen Emotion. Er mag Politiker, General, Indus
triekapitn o. Universittslehrer sein, aber er ist dennoch nur eine menschliche Mas
chine, die unter der Illusion steht, ein bewusst und frei entscheidender Mensch
zu sein. Sei deshalb misstrauisch gegenber allen Eindrcken, die von auen hereinwoll
en, akzeptiere sie nicht gutglubig, damit du nicht von jedem Virus angesteckt wir
st" Moltke
Ich verstehe gar nicht wieso du Probleme bei dir selbst siehst?
Mehrere Leute in diesem Thread haben dir schon besttigt, dass du nichts falsch ge
macht hast.
Du bist doch zumindest was du so schreibst ein liebenswerter Mann.
Und es gibt gengend Frauen, die dich so mgen wie du bist.
Aber ich nehme mal an, das kommt alles nicht bei dir an, weil
du sie nicht loslassen kannst (was brigens vllig normal ist
und 95% der Mnner hier wahrscheinlich genausogehen wird.)
Die Zeit wird es mit Sicherheit richten. (Ob du jetzt am "Inner Game" arbeitest
oder nicht,
wenn dir das Spass macht, dann tu das ruhig.)
Und das ist hart und anstrengend, nicht weil du so viel tun mtest, sondern
weil du es "aushalten" musst, bis das Gefhl fr diese Frau irgendwann nachlsst.

16:42 frasom While meditating, I tried to create a Prana flow between Ajna an
d Muladhara. Then I decided: "Ah, screw it, just let it flow." And BAM, for the
first time ever, I felt my Anahata chakra and my whole body began to gloom.
16:43 frasom Or something like that. The whole body just suddenly filled with
energy. Was quite an intense feeling.
16:44 frasom But it was a good feeling. That is why "gloom" is not really the
right word for it.
16:45 frasom But I lack a better one.
16:45 frasom I gotta stop it at some point, though, because it becomes to int
ense.
16:45 frasom +o
16:47 umbridge Great! The Anahata chakra is actually the chakra which I
can activate a lot more easily than the other chakras, but it never became that
intense in my case
16:47 frasom Ooooh, next Crowley reference found in V for Vendetta.
16:47 umbridge Was it similar to an inner sun?
16:47 frasom Book 3 is called "The Land of Do-As-You-Please"
16:48 frasom Yeah, somehow. I'll see how it develops over the next few weeks
and will keep you informed.
16:48 frasom Maybe I actually hit the sun.
16:49 umbridge Did Crowley ever actually write "Do as you please"?
16:49 Surgo I think he did somewhere.
16:49 Surgo Not in the context of interpreting DWTW
16:49 frasom Yes, even exactly. He wrote "We shall see that do what thou wilt
has nothing to do with do as you please".
16:50 umbridge Ah, yes, that's similar to what I had in mind as well -
I would have wondered if he actually advocated "Do as you please" which resemble
s the atrocious Laveyan approach
16:52 frasom Can't remember where that was, though.
16:52 frasom Context is just that in the few pages before that, V used the "w
hat thou wilt" formula.
16:53 frasom I'm just rereading Alan Moore and find it interesting that he al
ready hid so many references to Crowley in V for Vendetta. Later, it becomes obv
ious.
16:54 umbridge I vaguely remember reading Promethea in 2007 - it was fu
ll of Crowley references, but I didn't like his approach at all
16:54 umbridge Lots of things resembling New Age etc.
16:55 frasom I don't like everything he writes, either. It never strikes me w
ith "Ah, brilliant!" but always with "Well, that's some damn good piece of craft
."
16:56 frasom He knows what he is doing and I think nobody ever was able to ma
ke that many intertextual references (intentional and unintentional) as he did.
16:56 frasom Just look at League of Extraordinary Gentlemen
16:56 frasom You need at least a master's degree in English Literature to dec
ipher it completely.
16:57 umbridge That might be the case - I only read Promethea, because
I got it from Bjrn K. back then
16:57 frasom How are his comic book author plans going?
16:58 umbridge Currently non-existent - lots of weed-smoking and smalle
r projects
16:59 umbridge He is a living example of how a hedonist lifestyle usual
ly leads you nowhere
16:59 frasom Yes, weed does make lazy.
16:59 frasom Is he still working on his doctorate?
16:59 umbridge No, he abandoned that a long time ago
17:00 frasom Ah. Pity. Then what is he doing exactly? Living on wellfare?
17:01 umbridge Yes, basically - and having to repay a lot of money
17:01 frasom Huh. Now that sucks.
17:01 frasom But still enough money for weed? Kudos.
17:02 umbridge Their whole WG is currently not really doing anything an
d smoking a lot
17:04 umbridge I still try to systematize my experience from the day be
fore yesterday. Unfortunately, my MP3-Player which "magickally" recharged itself
at that time, decided to stop working now, but that will probably only be a tem
porary problem
17:04 frasom Hm. And what does Bjoern want to do about it?
17:04 umbridge Smoke more weed
17:04 frasom Yes, a deeper analysis might prove interesting,
17:04 frasom Err. That are all his plans?
17:04 frasom Hmm. Well. Most drugs do that to one.
17:05 umbridge Seriously, they are all not very ambitious currently in
that flat
17:07 frasom HA!
17:07 umbridge Quite a bit of crazy stuff happened as well. I have avoi
ded any contact with them since Tuesday, since there was a hilarious drama.
17:07 frasom Oh my god, no he's made it completely obvious.
17:07 frasom V declares: "And do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law
!" Why did that never jump my eye before? Must be the selective attention in rea
ding.
17:07 frasom What did the girl do this time?
17:08 frasom Oh, I will TOTALLY work that into my PhD thesis.
17:12 umbridge Well, to begin with, she invited me for sex and then dec
lined sex. Afterwards, lots of complaints were raised - ironically, she complain
ed mostly about things which she actually wanted me to do etc. I decided to leav
e for a week and then she started crying without end. On the following day, I st
ill had to get my MP3 player from her and her flatmates
17:12 umbridge stared at me helplessly, obviously expecting me to make
her feel better again etc.
17:12 frasom Told you already half a year ago.
17:12 frasom Ditch that bitch.
17:13 frasom What was it that she wanted you to do and then complained about?
17:15 umbridge First, quite a few things involving sex (she wanted me t
o be "rougher", "more dominant" etc. - I was in the mood on that day and just we
nt a little bit in that direction - then she said something like: "That's too mu
ch too soon. I need more time now." - after inviting me for sex and after I had
already waited until she got her stuff done - it was already
17:16 umbridge 1 am.
17:16 umbridge Then I told her that it wasn't like I just ripped off he
r clothes and took her right then and there and her reply was: "Perhaps you shou
ld have done that"
17:17 umbridge And that just reflects how grotesque ca. 100 things were
on that evening
17:19 umbridge Of course, she declined sex completely in the end
17:21 frasom That's the point where I would have said something like: "You kn
ow what? Decide you want no to be yes and yes to be no or no to be no or yes to
be yes, but for the time being, I am done dealing with your damaged logic circui
ts. Have a good night, thanks for wasting my time. Next time you wanna have sex,
I demand you naked and begging at my doorstep."
17:24 umbridge Well, I'm at Norderstedt now and she doesn't even know t
hat I'm here, so I will at least have a break until Monday - but yes, of course
that whole situation was indicative of the underlying pointlessness of the whole
thing
17:25 umbridge No woman ever did something like that in my presence - a
nd I have dealt with some pretty crazy individuals
17:27 umbridge However, I definitely feel the effects of my whole perso
nal involvement with her - it's not easy at all to distance myself emotionally,
as hilarious as that is. My current state helps a lot, though
17:29 frasom Well, i gotta go now, will say "Waiting for Godot" at the theatr
e.
17:29 frasom Laters!
17:29 frasom 93
17:29 umbridge 93
17:34 *** frasom quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
19:00 Surgo http://boards.4chan.org/x/res/11743458
19:00 Surgo THERE
19:00 Surgo FAGGOTS
19:03 Momo The cross needs a few more pentagrams. 37 Should do it.
19:03 Surgo >cross
19:03 Surgo >not Rosy Cross.
19:03 Surgo >where is your sex magic now?
19:03 Momo Purple, not lavender. The difference is so large.
19:04 Momo My sex magic is floating about.
19:29 --- umbridge is away (Auto away)
19:59 *** ataraxiaRS joined #thelema
20:00 Surgo Greetings.
20:01 ataraxiaRS Hello
20:02 ataraxiaRS This is what you mean by Liber ABA: http://www.sacred-te
xts.com/oto/aba/aba2.htm
20:03 Surgo Yes.
20:04 ataraxiaRS This falls under what school of magic? Thelema? I have a
single book on Enochian magic. I have access to a private library where I can a
ccess nearly any occult text.
20:04 ataraxiaRS I found myself most interested in Chaos magic, and Daois
m.
20:04 Surgo It falls under Ceremonial magic as a whole.
20:04 Surgo Goes far beyond ceremonial, but on the most superficial level, i
t's that.
20:05 ataraxiaRS How would I learn the terminology you were referring to?
20:05 Surgo Read and read and read, then practice and practice and practice.
20:06 Surgo This way, you'll have not only an intellectual, but also a pract
ical experience of the terms.
20:07 ataraxiaRS What do you generally acknowledge as bullshit?
20:08 Surgo Claims which fall within, and contradict, my experience.
20:08 Surgo It's hard to reach Jesus-level miracles, but it's not impossible
. I am very wary when people say that they perform these without any effort at a
ll though.
20:09 ataraxiaRS Alright
20:09 ataraxiaRS What is the first thing you'd recommend learning?
20:09 Surgo Pick one practice and perform it daily for a few months.
20:10 ataraxiaRS I know there are different banishing rituals, and that i
s important. However, I don't understand what is distinct about them.
20:10 ataraxiaRS I've had experience with burning white sage, and it appe
ars to elevate a person's mood.
20:12 Surgo Indeed, it does.
20:12 Surgo Banishings in general do much more than just banish.
20:12 ataraxiaRS I apologize if I'm just throwing things out there. I am
ill and have a splitting headache.
20:13 Surgo For example, the LBRP not only banishes, but also sets up the En
ochian watchtowers, invokes four guardians, and fixes ones direction on Tipharet
h.
20:13 Surgo No problem.
20:13 ataraxiaRS Please elaborate.
20:13 Surgo On which point?
20:14 ataraxiaRS As many as you care to in order.
20:14 ataraxiaRS The only banishing ritual I used was visualizing pentagr
ams forming a cube around myself and pushing outward.
20:15 Surgo For Enochian, you'd have to have at least a limited understandin
g on it. Suffice to say that you are turning clockwise, not counterclockwise.
20:15 ataraxiaRS I have not done it a few years.
20:15 Surgo The Guardians are again related to this movement. They connect d
irectly to elemental sephiroth on the Tree.
20:15 Surgo The direction is fixed by the squaring of the circle, 5=6.
20:16 ataraxiaRS Squaring of a circle?
20:16 ataraxiaRS Mathematically or by placing a square over a circle?
20:16 Surgo Both.
20:17 ataraxiaRS My understanding of Enochian magic is that it is related
to the directions and there are a number of angelic entities that you can chann
el.
20:17 ataraxiaRS However, the book reads like brainfuck to me at the mome
nt.
20:18 Surgo Hahah. I had programmed a hello world in brainfuck once.
20:18 ataraxiaRS I actually stopped doing anything related to the occult
for the past year or two after reading it.
20:18 ataraxiaRS Do you program?
20:18 Surgo Yeah.
20:18 Surgo Majoring CS.
20:18 ataraxiaRS Me too. Cool. Same.
20:18 ataraxiaRS Mathematics, and Computer Science.
20:18 Surgo Heheh.
20:19 ataraxiaRS Something keeps hinting in my mind to write programs tha
t create sigils, and do other things.
20:19 Surgo I actually think uni-level maths are easier than high-school
20:19 Surgo It's simple, use the Rosy Cross.
20:19 ataraxiaRS It's all about applying the stuff in some way.
20:19 ataraxiaRS I'm starting from College Algebra and progressing upward
s.
20:19 ataraxiaRS Rosy Cross?
20:19 Surgo Yeah.
20:20 ataraxiaRS I Google most everything I don't know.
20:20 ataraxiaRS Do you have an account on theoccult.bz
20:21 ataraxiaRS One of the fellows at DKMU gave me an invite. I lost tou
ch with him. They're not very active anymore in the public room.
20:21 Surgo No.
20:21 ataraxiaRS It's a great source of occult texts.
20:22 Surgo As is http://hermetic.com, http://sacred-texts.com and http://en
glish.grimoar.cz
20:23 ataraxiaRS Ah, thank you.
20:24 ataraxiaRS LBRP, Star Ruby, and Rosy Cross are banishing rituals?
20:24 Surgo Rosy Cross is the picture with the colorful cross.
20:24 Surgo The Star Ruby and LBRP yes, are considered banishing rituals.
20:27 ataraxiaRS Ok
20:29 ataraxiaRS So many questions.
20:30 Surgo Heheh.
20:30 ataraxiaRS These practices seem to come from a Christian tradition.
20:30 ataraxiaRS I was raised in a Christian faith however I don't find m
yself identifying with it much anymore.
20:32 Surgo Well, they might seem so, but they reach much further back.
20:32 Surgo Beyond Judaism, even.
20:33 ataraxiaRS Is it simply that different cultures have different term
inology or reach out to understand these concepts in different ways?
20:33 ataraxiaRS *reached
20:34 Surgo Basically, yes. You might wish to go through Liber 777, as it re
conciles most of the various religions and belief systems into a coherent whole.
20:35 ataraxiaRS Good recommendation. I've already jumped through wikiped
ia towards that from the Rosy Cross.
Socrates:
If God wanted man to go to heaven, why did he put man
on earth in the first place? Why did he not simply put man
in heaven from the beginning? I find it hard to believe that
man with all his capabilities, desires, and complexities was
created merely to sit and bow and scrape and worship.
Certainly there is not, nor ever was, a human tyrant so
vain and proud that he wanted his subjects merely to bow
and scrape obsequiously and subserviently before him
from dawn to dusk, let alone for all eternity. I certainly can
understand why Satan wanted to rebel against such a
static, regimented, oppressive, boring society. From what
you have told me so far, I would have had to side with
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Satan in the rebellion, for although I consider myself a
humble man as men go, I could not bow and scrape and
sing praises all day to a being who threatened me with
punishment and eternal torment if I did not.
Jesus:
The Lord thy God is a jealous god and thou shalt have no
other gods before him.
Socrates:
Why did Satan rebel? Did he know that God was as
powerful as you describe him to be and that he was certain
to be defeated?
Jesus:
Satan rebelled because he was proud and wanted to rule
heaven himself. He knew partly of God's great power (that
it was greater than his own), but he wanted power so badly
that he was willing to take any chance.
Socrates:
Satan was certainly very brave, then; to strive against a foe
he could not defeat.
Jesus:
He was sinful because he was disobedient to the will of
God.
Socrates:
It seems to me that the o nly difference between Satan and
God is the degree of power.
Jesus:
God is perfect. He is all powerful, all knowing, and without
sin.
Socrates:
Of course; by definition he is without sin because he could
not be disobedient to himself. The only real difference
between the two is the degree of power. Therefore, Satan
9
was not wrong or sinful to rebel against God, he was only
wrong to lose the rebellion. For if he had won, God would
be the sinner: because God would have been disobedient
to Satan who would be better than God or the other angels
because he could not sin against himself, that is, be
disobedient to himself, and he would have proven himself
all powerful. If Satan had won, he would have become
God, by your definition because he would have been all
powerful and without sin. Who knows but that this didn't
happen? From your description of God, I begin to suspect
at this point that it did.
Jesus:
God is more than mere power and righteous lack of sin: he
is infinite justice, mercy, peace and compassio n, and all
forgiving. Satan is vicious, selfish, destructive, and evil.
Socrates:
If God is just or merciful, how can he do this to an enemy
who fought him in battle. Why did God not simply pardon
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Satan after defeat as men often do to a captured nation
after they defeat it? Mankind would seem in victory to be
more merciful than God; for they do not treat the
vanquished to such terrible torments for even a lifetime,
let alone for all eternity. Why did God not show the
qualities that you described as his justice, mercy,
compassion, and forgiveness to Satan? Certainly God's
warlike nature is in marked contrast with your definition
of the term God as being peaceful, merciful and all
forgiving.
Jesus:
God works in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform.
Socrates:
If Satan is locked in Hell, how can he bring plagues and
torments on mankind and why does God allow it if he is all
powerful and all good? If God is all powerful, how is it that
he permits this evil Satan to survive? Why does he not
destroy him? Although I begin to wonder, at this point, if
the opposite course would not be better.
Jesus:
God allows Satan to be free to bring plagues and torments
on mankind in order to punish man for his sin in the
Garden of Eden.
Socrates:
What is the Garden of Eden?
Jesus:
When God created the first man and woman, Adam and
Eve, he put them in the Garden of Eden. When they were
created, they were pure and without sin. That is how God
created them. The Garden of Eden was a beautiful
paradise, and it provided Adam and Eve with everything
they needed. They did no have to work but merely pluck
the fruit from the branches from lush trees. They were as
innocent and untroubled as children and knew nothing
about carnal fleshly love. They had each other for
11
companions and adored and worshiped God who visited
them once in a while.
Socrates:
Why did God create mankind?
Jesus:
He was lonely.
Socrates:
Why did he not simply create additional angels who were
more his equal rather than this much lower form of life,
Man? Could it be that he wanted obsequious slaves that he
could look down on who would fear, reverence, and
worship him?
Jesus:
Since he is our creator, we owe him our worship,
reverence, and obedience.
Socrates:
Is the child of a criminal duty -bound to be obedient to his
father, or does he have a right and obligation to judge for
himself between right and wrong? What sin, what act of
disobedience, did man commit in the Garden of Eden?
Jesus:
In the center of the Garden of Eden, God put the tree of
knowledge. God told Adam and Eve that they were not to
eat of the fruit of that tree. Satan went to the Garden
disguised as a snake and told Eve that she would gain
great knowledge if she ate the fruit. Satan said that God
had told them not to eat the fruit because he was afraid
that if they did they would become as great as he was. Eve
convinced Adam to eat the fruit. After they ate, the learned
of sexual love. That was the original sin.
Socrates:
Is knowledge evil that God would want to keep it from us?
Why did God want to keep us from gaining knowledge?
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Did he want to keep us subservient slaves groveling under
his feet? It seems to me that we owe Satan thanks and
worship for his help. Satan seems rather like the Titan
Prometheus, who in defiance of the orders of the gods
brought man the knowledge of fire. For this service to
man, Prometheus like Satan was subjected to torment and
torture for all eternity. Certainly human life would be
worth a great deal less that it is without love, fire and
knowledge.
Jesus:
But Satan was lying to Eve, because we did not become as
great as God by eating the fruit. He was lying to us merely
because he wanted to destroy the work of God.
Socrates:
If God is all powerful, why did he allow Satan to come to
the Garden and tempt Eve? If God did not want man to eat
the fruit, why did he put the tree in the Garden in the first
place? If God did not want man to make sexual love, why
did he equip man with the organs necessary for it? If God
did not want man to commit the original sin, why did he
give man a desire for knowledge, experience, adventure
and carnal love?
Jesus:
God put the tree in the Garden and allowed Satan to come
there because he wanted to test mankind.
Socrates:
You have said that God was all knowing; that he knows
everything that happens before it happens. Certainly God
already knew how man would behave in any situation.
Jesus:
God gave man free will. It was just as possible for man to
be virtuous and obey God as it was for man to be sinful
and disobey the word of God.
Socrates:
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Did God know that man would sin?
Jesus:
He knew that man would sin but he allowed man the free
will to make his own choice.
Socrates:
Could God have created man so he could not sin? Could
God have created man so that he would not have sinned in
this particular situation?
Jesus:
Yes, since God is all powerful he could have done that, but
he did not want men to be mere puppets; he wanted men
to have free will.
Socrates:
Could God have created man with two heads and three
legs or any other way if he wanted to?
Jesus:
God could have created man any way he wanted to.
Socrates:
Did God create man the way he intended to? Did God
intend for man to have one head, two legs and to appear
exactly as he does today?
Jesus:
Of course: God is perfect and all powerful; he could not
make a mistake.
Socrates:
Then God did not make a mistake, but created man exactly
as he intended to in every way?
Jesus:
Yes.
Socrates:
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Then you and I were created exactly as God intended us to
be? And Adam and Eve were created exactly as God
intended them to be?
Jesus:
Yes. It is as I have said.
Socrates:
Did everything that is part of man come from God?
Jesus:
Yes: God is the master and controller and creator of all.
Socrates:
Did the devil or any other force create any part of man?
Jesus:
No. God is sole creator of all.
Socrates:
Then, if God created man's eyes, legs and mind, he also
created man's desires; all his desires, even his desire for
knowledge and sex. Why did man sin?
Jesus:
He sinned because of his weaknesses and his evil nature.
Socrates:
Is man's nature a part of man, just as hands and feet are a
part of man?
Jesus:
Yes. Man's nature is a part of man.
Socrates:
Who created man?
Jesus:
God.
15
Socrates:
Who created man's hands and feet?
Jesus:
God.
Socrates:
Who gave man two hands and two feet and created them
exactly as they are today, and exactly as they were in the
time of Adam and Eve?
Jesus:
God.
Socrates:
Who created man's nature?
Jesus:
God.
Socrates:
Who gave man his evil nature and weaknesses? God did,
because everything that is a part of man came from God
and God alone.
Jesus:
God gave man free will.
Socrates:
Who intended for men to have two hands, the devil?
Jesus:
No. God intended for man to have two hands.
Socrates:
Who intended for man to have weaknesses and an evil
nature, the devil? No. God intended for man to have
16
weaknesses and evil nature. If mankind is flawed or evil or
weak, it is because God put the flaw or weakness there and
intended it to be there. Let me tell you another parable.
Have you ever seen the birds killing fish in the sea? Who
put it into that bird to fang and kill that flying fish? Who's
to doom, man, when the judge himself is dragged before
the bar?
Jesus:
Man has free will. God did not force him to sin. He merely
gave him the opportunity to be virtuous or sinful. Man
would have been of no value to God if he had made him a
mere puppet who could do nothing but good. He wanted
to give man the opportunity to be good or evil according to
his own merit and choice.
Socrates:
It is absurd for God to punish man after creating him. It is
as though a Homer wrote an ode about a pig and then
whipped and lashed the pages or cast them on an eternal
unconsuming fire, because he disliked the qualities of the
animal. Or that a master sculptor made a perfect statue of
a pig and then lashed it for all eternity because he disliked
the traits of the animal.
Jesus:
God did not create man with an evil nature that
predetermined that he must sin.
Socrates:
Then who did?
Jesus:
God created man to be innocent and naturally good. God
put man in a paradise, the Garden of Eden. He gave man
free will and allowed Satan to come into the Garden of
Eden to test mankind. God did not predetermine that man
would sin.
Socrates:
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But God created everything that went into this
combination, situation or environment. When he created
each of the elements or ingredients in the situation, he
knew exactly how each would react with the others in any
circumstance; because he was all knowing. He intended
for each element to be exactly as it was because he was allpowerful
and could not make a mistake. It is as though a
scientist or a physician combined several ingredients into
a medicine, which although harmless in themselves, when
combined become a deadly poison; and then after
administering it to a patient, disavowed any responsibility
for his death. In just this way, God combined many things;
an innocent man, a tree of knowledge, a beautiful garden
and an angel.
Jesus:
All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Socrates:
It seems to me that you Lord God has merely created man
to watch him suffer. This business of Satan, the Garden of
Eden and free will is merely a facade. God merely wanted
an excuse to harass, persecute, torment and oppress
mankind. If an all-powerful and all-knowing being creates
everything, and allows his creations to react in a certain
way, he actually intended them to act in that way and is
solely responsible for the results.
Jesus:
I warn you, God is not mocked. Do not talk in this way or
you will be thrown into the fiery furnace where you will
gnash your teeth, forever in torture and torment.
Socrates:
I thought our Olympic gods were vicious and
unreasonable, but they seem veritable lambs of mercy and
forbearance compared to this God of yours: who torments
and tortures you for all eternity for doing what he forces
you to do in the very making of you and your environment.
18
Jesus:
Oh, give thanks unto the Lord for he is good; For his
mercy endureth forever.
Socrates:
Why, if he is a god of peace and mercy does he torment
mankind and permit, even encourage and demand,
bloodshed on earth; and permit, even demand Satan to
tempt and torture mankind: since you said that nothing
happens that he does not only know about, but will to
happen? An all-powerful being who knows all and creates
all, determines all, because he knows the way his creations
will act.
Jesus:
God gave man free will because he did not want him to be
a mere puppet. God did not want man to sin. God was very
disappointed when man sinned.
Socrates:
God could not possibly be disappointed because he knew
the nature of man and all else that he created. Since he is
all powerful, he intended man to sin. Indeed he forced
man to sin by creating man with certain desires and
weaknesses.
Jesus:
What you say is blasphemy. God created the world and all
the plants and animals for the pleasure of man. Look at
the beautiful world around you. How can you say such
terrible things about God after he has given so much to
you?
Socrates:
I certainly couldn't believe this. How could a god who was
so vicious, sadistic and hateful create a world with so
much beauty? Even man with as much evil as there seems
at times to be in him, still at other times exhibits
incredible strength, self sacrifice and loyalty, and degrees
of the conflicting qualities of mercy and justice. Your Lord
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God has none of these qualities. Certainly there never was
a man however vile who could do to another man what you
claim God does to those who do not respect him: torture
them for all eternity. Any man, no matter how foully he
has been mangled, tortured or murdered--like Priam
whose whole clan was slain or Agamemnon who was
murdered by his wife and her lover--would eventually
relent after years or centuries of torturing his foe.
Jesus:
I am the way, the truth and the light. None come to the
Father except by me. Believe in me and have eternal life in
heaven; deny me and suffer eternal torture in Hell.
Socrates:
If I did accept your system, I would have to side with Satan
against your God; even knowing that I would be
tormented and tortured forever. The injustice and
viciousness of your God is so appalling. I have heard
terrible accounts of human sacrifices by savages on distant
coasts; but certainly, even they never thought of torturing
their victims for all eternity. I have heard frightening
accounts of terrible monsters, Cyclops, gorgons and
medusas, but these monsters are as tame and gentle as
lambs, compared to those described in your book of
Revelation. And you tell me of Lord God's peaceful,
merciful and all-forgiving nature.
Jesus:
We are all the children of God. God is our father and does
not want us to sin but must punish us when we do. He is
just and merciful and only sends us, his children, to Hell,
damnation and eternal torment when it is our own fault.
When we sin and lust after sex like Adam and Eve, he has
no choice but to punish us, by torturing us in eternal fire
forever.
Socrates:
You say we are all the children of God. He is a veritable
monster to harass his own children for having the eyes,
20
legs and desires that he gave them. Be these juggling
fiends no more believed, that palter with us in a double
sense and keep the word of promise to our ear but to break
it to our hope. I see not purpose, nor reason, nor truth, nor
mercy, nor justice; naught but capricious naked power.
Indeed, human beings, for all their caprice, selfishness and
weaknesses, seem to have more of these qualities than
your God. Your God is a demonic, sadistic, psychotic fiend.