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Time period of rc frame buildings
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naveen
SEFI Member
Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 8
Location: Hyderabad
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: Time period of rc frame buildings
Dear All,
I am structural engineer working on the design of buildings. At present i am working on
the design of an rc framed building of about 14 stories height. This building is nearly square in
plan and is not having any vertical irregularities. Also there are no shear walls. This is a
residential building with brick infill walls.
For calculating the time period of rc buildings IS 1893 gives two formulas. One is given in
section 7.6.1 which gives time period for rc frames without infill walls and the other is in section
7.6.2 which gives time period for rc frames with infill walls. Until now, i was using the the formula
given in 7.6.2 for calculating the time period of buildings with brick infill panels.
For modelling the building the a bare frame is considered and the infill panels were not
modelled. Recently i was instructed to use the formula given in section 7.6.1 i.e., the formula for
frames without infill panels, as we are not modelling the infill panels. But i am of the opinion that
even though we are not modelling the infill panels, the real structure will have brick infill panels
and will be stiffer compared to the bare frame and will attract more forces in an earthquake, so i
prefer to use the brick infill frame formula.

Can anybody please elaborate or explain about which formula have to be taken for
calculating time period of the rc moment resisting frame building modelled as a bare frame
without brick infills.
Waiting for reply and thanks in advance for any replies.
Regards
Naveen.
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Dr. N. Subramanian
General Sponsor
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 4753
Location: Gaithersburg,
MD, U.S.A.
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject: Time period of rc frame buildings
Dear Mr. Naveen,
I also would suggest you to use the the formula given in 7.6.2 for calculating the time period of
buildings with brick infill panels.
Some engineers are using the formula given in section 7.6.1 (time period for rc frames without
infill walls), since they are not sure about the location of brick infills- they may be removed in
future.
Best wishes
Subramanian
--- On Wed, 8/20/08, naveen <forum@sefindia.org> wrote:
Quote:
59k Like Share
From: naveen <forum@sefindia.org>
Subject: [SEFI] Time period of rc frame buildings
To: general@sefindia.org
Date: Wednesday, August 20, 2008, 4:34 PM
Dear All,
I am structural engineer working on the design of buildings. At present i am working on the
design of an rc framed building of about 14 stories height. This building is nearly square in plan
and is not having any vertical irregularities. Also there are no shear walls. This is a residential
building with brick infill walls.
For calculating the time period of rc buildings IS 1893 gives two formulas. One is given in
section 7.6.1 which gives time period for rc frames without infill walls and the other is in
section 7.6.2 which gives time period for rc frames with infill walls. Until now, i was using the
the formula given in 7.6.2 for calculating the time period of buildings with brick infill panels.
For modelling the building the a bare frame is considered and the infill panels were not
modelled. Recently i was instructed to use the formula given in section 7.6.1 i.e., the formula
for frames without infill panels, as we are not modelling the infill panels. But i am of the opinion
that even though we are not modelling the infill panels, the real structure will have brick infill
panels and will be stiffer compared to the bare frame and will attract more forces in an
earthquake, so i prefer to use the brick infill frame formula.
Can anybody please elaborate or explain about which formula have to be taken for calculating
time period of the rc moment resisting frame building modelled as a bare frame without brick
infills.
Waiting for reply and thanks in advance for any replies.
Regards
Naveen.


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akbar.civil
SEFI Regulars
Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 36
Location: New York
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject: Time period of rc frame buildings
Dear Mr. Naveen,
You are right that the time period of the structure is more exact with the equation 7.6.2 which
gives time period for rc frames with infill walls.
But I fell your case is little different. You have already modeled the building without brick infill
walls and is entering an approximate time period of the building for further dynamic analysis of
the building, Isnt it?. Please correct me if I am wrong.
In that case I feel that you should enter the time period corresponding to equation 7.6.1
(without infill walls) because the model you already have is without brick infill wall. In doing so
you are entering a wrong time period compared to the actual model but correct time period for
the one you have already modeled. In doing so the dynamic forces you get on structural
elements like beams, columns, etc will be more exact.
All comments are welcome as this is purely my opinion.
Regards,
*******************************
M. A. Akbar
M-Tech: Structural Engg.
Calicut, Kerala
India
*******************************
----- Original Message ----
From: naveen <forum@sefindia.org>
To: general@sefindia.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 4:04:01 AM
Subject: [SEFI] Time period of rc frame buildings
Dear All,
I am structural engineer working on the design of buildings. At present i am working on the
design of an rc framed building of about 14 stories height. This building is nearly square in plan
and is not having any vertical irregularities. Also there are no shear walls. This is a residential
building with brick infill walls.
For calculating the time period of rc buildings IS 1893 gives two formulas. One is given in section
7.6.1 which gives time period for rc frames without infill walls and the other is in section 7.6.2
which gives time period for rc frames with infill walls. Until now, i was using the the formula given
in 7.6.2 for calculating the time period of buildings with brick infill panels.
For modelling the building the a bare frame is considered and the infill panels were not modelled.
Recently i was instructed to use the formula given in section 7.6.1 i.e., the formula for frames
without infill panels, as we are not modelling the infill panels. But i am of the opinion that even
though we are not modelling the infill panels, the real structure will have brick infill panels and will
be stiffer compared to the bare frame and will attract more forces in an earthquake, so i prefer to
use the brick infill frame formula.
Can anybody please elaborate or explain about which formula have to be taken for calculating
time period of the rc moment resisting frame building modelled as a bare frame without brick
infills.
Waiting for reply and thanks in advance for any replies.
Regards
Naveen.
Posted via Email
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sakumar79
...
Joined: 18 Apr 2008
Posts: 509
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject:
Dear Naveen,
You are correct. For buildings with infill wall, you have to use the formula in section 7.6.2. The
main aim of the clause is to ensure that even if the building is modelled without the brick walls, a
certain amount of improved accuracy will be provided by making use of the said equation... Only if
there are no brick walls can one make use of section 7.6.1 formula...
Arun
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anujdalvi
SEFI Regulars
Joined: 24 Apr 2008
Posts: 26
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:08 pm Post subject: Time period of rc frame buildings
Naveen
7.6.2 should be used,but also assign the dead weight of infill walls in your model even if you do
not assign them,we had a similar case using Etabs,practically giving infills makes the model
clumsy and crowded to work on.
To what extent do infill walls add to stiffness,i suppose when you are modelling your building at
all levels you have excluded walls so chances of geting a soft storey is minimal right,Besides
when you consider the stiffness of structure to resist earthquakes it would have been
appreciable in case shear walls were included in this building.
If possible suggest for shear walls around the lift that would add to the seismic capacity.
Regards
Anuj.
On 8/20/08, drnsmani <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote: [quote] Dear Mr.
Naveen,
I also would suggest you to use the the formula given in 7.6.2 for calculating the time period of
buildings with brick infill panels.
Some engineers are using the formula given in section 7.6.1 (time period for rc frames without
infill walls), since they are not sure about the location of brick infills- they may be removed in
future.
Best wishes
Subramanian
--- On Wed, 8/20/08, naveen wrote:
--auto removed--
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sangramiitk
SEFI Member
Joined: 12 May 2008
Posts: 8
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:24 pm Post subject: Time period of rc frame buildings
Why you are calculating the time period manually bu hand has the answer.
You are going to calculate the lower limit of seismic force/base shear
For which structure you are going to calculate. If in practical your structure is with brick wall then
simply use to formula that is used to calculate first natural time period for brick in fill wall.
Regards
-Sangram
On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 10:20 PM, akbar.civil <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)>
wrote:
Quote:
Dear Mr. Naveen,
You are right that the time period of the structure is more exact with the equation 7.6.2 which
gives time period for rc frames with infill walls.
But I fell your case is little different. You have already modeled the building without brick infill
walls and is entering an approximate time period of the building for further dynamic analysis
of the building, Isnt it?. Please correct me if I am wrong.
In that case I feel that you should enter the time period corresponding to equation 7.6.1
(without infill walls) because the model you already have is without brick infill wall. In doing so
you are entering a wrong time period compared to the actual model but correct time period
for the one you have already modeled. In doing so the dynamic forces you get on structural
elements like beams, columns, etc will be more exact.
All comments are welcome as this is purely my opinion.
Regards,
*******************************
M. A. Akbar
M-Tech: Structural Engg.
Calicut, Kerala
India
*******************************
----- Original Message ----
From: naveen
To: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org)
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 4:04:01 AM
Subject: [SEFI] Time period of rc frame buildings
Dear All,
I am structural engineer working on the design of buildings. At present i am working on the
design of an rc framed building of about 14 stories height. This building is nearly square in plan
and is not having any vertical irregularities. Also there are no shear walls. This is a residential
building with brick infill walls.
For calculating the time period of rc buildings IS 1893 gives two formulas. One is given in
section 7.6.1 which gives time period for rc frames without infill walls and the other is in
section 7.6.2 which gives time period for rc frames with infill walls. Until now, i was using the
the formula given in 7.6.2 for calculating the time period of buildings with brick infill panels.
For modelling the building the a bare frame is considered and the infill panels were not
modelled. Recently i was instructed to use the formula given in section 7.6.1 i.e., the formula
for frames without infill panels, as we are not modelling the infill panels. But i am of the opinion
that even though we are not modelling the infill panels, the real structure will have brick infill
panels and will be stiffer compared to the bare frame and will attract more forces in an
earthquake, so i prefer to use the brick infill frame formula.
Can anybody please elaborate or explain about which formula have to be taken for calculating
time period of the rc moment resisting frame building modelled as a bare frame without brick
infills.
Waiting for reply and thanks in advance for any replies.
Regards
Naveen.
Posted via Email
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prof.arc
...
Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 647
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:45 am Post subject: Time period of rc frame buildings
"But i am of the opinion that even though we are not modelling the infill panels, the real structure
will have brick infill panels and will be stiffer compared to the bare frame and will attract more
forces in an earthquake, so i prefer to use the brick infill frame formula".
Please stick to your preference - the one that gives stiffer period. The period you obtain ignoring
infill walls (that is considering bare frame only) would give a fictitious elongated period.
ARC
On 8/20/08, naveen <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
Dear All,
I am structural engineer working on the design of buildings. At present i am working on the
design of an rc framed building of about 14 stories height. This building is nearly square in plan
and is not having any vertical irregularities. Also there are no shear walls. This is a residential
building with brick infill walls.
For calculating the time period of rc buildings IS 1893 gives two formulas. One is given in
section 7.6.1 which gives time period for rc frames without infill walls and the other is in
section 7.6.2 which gives time period for rc frames with infill walls. Until now, i was using the
the formula given in 7.6.2 for calculating the time period of buildings with brick infill panels.
For modelling the building the a bare frame is considered and the infill panels were not
modelled. Recently i was instructed to use the formula given in section 7.6.1 i.e., the formula
for frames without infill panels, as we are not modelling the infill panels. But i am of the opinion
that even though we are not modelling the infill panels, the real structure will have brick infill
panels and will be stiffer compared to the bare frame and will attract more forces in an
earthquake, so i prefer to use the brick infill frame formula.
Can anybody please elaborate or explain about which formula have to be taken for calculating
time period of the rc moment resisting frame building modelled as a bare frame without brick
infills.
Waiting for reply and thanks in advance for any replies.
Regards
Naveen.
Posted via Email
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ajeetkokil
SEFI Regulars
Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 36
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject: Time period of rc frame buildings
You are absolutely correct on using the said formula (pertaining to the brick infills) to calculate
time period for str under consideration.
However, behavior of your mathematical model should match with that of the prototype.
I mean, you must simulate brick infill walls, may be with imagnary bracings with infinite stiffness
and zero density, so that the force distribution is in line with your thought process.
Hope this helps
Ajit
Quote:
On 8/20/08, naveen <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
Dear All,
I am structural engineer working on the design of buildings. At present i am
working on the design of an rc framed building of about 14 stories height. This
building is nearly square in plan and is not having any vertical irregularities. Also
there are no shear walls. This is a residential building with brick infill walls.
For calculating the time period of rc buildings IS 1893 gives two formulas. One is
given in section 7.6.1 which gives time period for rc frames without infill walls and
the other is in section 7.6.2 which gives time period for rc frames with infill walls.
Until now, i was using the the formula given in 7.6.2 for calculating the time period
of buildings with brick infill panels.
For modelling the building the a bare frame is considered and the infill panels were
not modelled. Recently i was instructed to use the formula given in section 7.6.1
i.e., the formula for frames without infill panels, as we are not modelling the infill
panels. But i am of the opinion that even though we are not modelling the infill
panels, the real structure will have brick infill panels and will be stiffer compared to
the bare frame and will attract more forces in an earthquake, so i prefer to use the
brick infill frame formula.
Can anybody please elaborate or explain about which formula have to be taken for
calculating time period of the rc moment resisting frame building modelled as a
bare frame without brick infills.
Waiting for reply and thanks in advance for any replies.
Regards
Naveen.
Ajit Shankar Kokil
Engineer,
Strl. and Arch. Deptt.
Engineers India Limited,
New Delhi
call me at 99112 02590
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pat_vchoudhary
SEFI Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 6
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:19 pm Post subject: Time period of rc frame buildings
Dear all
I have been modelling infill walls and compared it with bare frame models. The results are
surprising.
1. First, Static load at column bases changes as compared to bare frame. some column has nore
load and some less, but the total load on all columns remains same in both cases. It must be due
to transfer of forces through bracings, which are modelled to represent infill walls. Which load to
consider - from bare frame or from infill model.
2. What should be the value of E for brick infill walls. A lot depends on the value of E for correct
modelling.
3. Shoud brickpanels with openings also be modelled? If yes, upto what size and location of
openings?
In my opinion, modelling of bare frames should be stopped, as it gives unrealistic results
compared to actual behaviour of structure during earthquake. And we need a lot of discussion on
this instead of partial factor of safety1.5/1.2/.9
Thanks
Er Sudip kumar
[quote] ----- Original Message -----
From: ajeetkokil (forum@sefindia.org)
To: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org)
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 1:45 PM
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Time period of rc frame buildings
You are absolutely correct on using the said formula (pertaining to the brick infills) to calculate
time period for str under consideration.
However, behavior of your mathematical model should match with that of the prototype.
I mean, you must simulate brick infill walls, may be with imagnary bracings with infinite stiffness
and zero density, so that the force distribution is in line with your thought process.
Hope this helps
Ajit
--auto removed--
Posted via Email
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suku82in
SEFI Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 7
Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:38 am Post subject: Time period of rc frame buildings
Dear all,
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Lot of
discussion is going on brick infill topic. I want to to know while modeling equivalent strut for
replacing brick infill ,how to account for opening in the wall.
Regards,
S.adhikari
--- On Thu, 8/21/08, pat_vchoudhary <forum@sefindia.org> wrote:
Quote:
From: pat_vchoudhary <forum@sefindia.org>
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Time period of rc frame buildings
To: general@sefindia.org
Date: Thursday, August 21, 2008, 6:23 PM
Dear all
I have been modelling infill walls and compared it with bare frame models. The results are
surprising.
1. First, Static load at column bases changes as compared to bare frame. some column has
nore load and some less, but the total load on all columns remains same in both cases. It must
be due to transfer of forces through bracings, which are modelled to represent infill walls.
Which load to consider - from bare frame or from infill model.
2. What should be the value of E for brick infill walls. A lot depends on the value of E for
correct modelling.
3. Shoud brickpanels with openings also be modelled? If yes, upto what size and location of
openings?
In my opinion, modelling of bare frames should be stopped, as it gives unrealistic results
compared to actual behaviour of structure during earthquake. And we need a lot of discussion
on this instead of partial factor of safety1.5/1.2/.9
Thanks
Er Sudip kumar
Quote:
----- Original Message -----
From: ajeetkokil (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))
To: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org) (general@sefindia.org
(general@sefindia.org))
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 1:45 PM
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Time period of rc frame buildings
You are absolutely correct on using the said formula (pertaining to the brick infills)
to calculate time period for str under consideration.
However, behavior of your mathematical model should match with that of the
prototype.
I mean, you must simulate brick infill walls, may be with imagnary bracings with
infinite stiffness and zero density, so that the force distribution is in line with your
thought process.
Hope this helps
Ajit
--auto removed--
Posted via Email
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