SUBBUTEO CLUB MEMBERS AUG. 2002 TO AUG.

2005
RIGBY Dean
RIISLER Kieron
ROBERTS Simon
ROBERTSON Nigel
RONSEN Anton
RUDDLE Tony
RUSSELL Stan
SADD Mark
SADDLER Dean
SALT Adam
SALTER Steven
SANDERS Robert
SAUNDERS Paul
SAUNTSON Dixie
SCATCHARD Paul
SENESE Marco
SENIOR Gareth
SHAW Terence
SHELLEY Jon
SHERWOOD Pete
SHONE Tim
SKEFFINGTON Wayne
SHERIDAN Martin
SIBBALD Geoffrey
SIMMONDS Wesley
SIMPSON Andrew
SLATTER Simon
SMART Robin
SMITH Chris
SMITH Debra
SMITH Mark
SMITH Trevor
SPRING Alan
SPROSTON Adrian
STANIFORTH Michael
STANNARD Paul
STAPLES Richard
STAPLETON Chris
STAPLETON Roy
STASKIEWICZ Andrew
STEVENS Graham
STOKER Kevin
STONE Damien
STREATHER Paul
SUTTON Ron
SWAIN Matthew
SWEENEY William
TATARSKY Daniel
TAYLOR Harvey
TAYLOR Lee
TECHIATI Enrico
TERRASI Anna
THORPE Kevin
TINDLE Paul
TIPLADY Keith
TOTTI Gianmatteo
TURNER Max
TURPIN John
TYLER-MASON Josh
UNDERWOOD Colin
VALENTE Bruno
VARNEY Bob
VINCE Ian
VYCE Nathan
WADDINGTON Paul
WAKELEN Nigel
WALKER David
WALKER Matt
WALKER Stephen
WALLIS Adam
WARREN Kenneth
WATSON Malcolm
WATTS Dennis
WELDON Matt
WELLINGS Shaun
WEST Keith
WESTHEADMark
WESTWOOD Calum
WESTWOOD Jim
WHITEHOUSE Phil
WICKS Oliver
WILKINSON Paul
WILLIAMS Gary
WILLIAMS Paul
WILSON Andy
WILSON Geoff
WILSON Toby
WIMPERISS Len
WINSTANLEY Peter
WOOLCOCK John
WRIGHT Steve
WROE Peter
WYKES Sam
YATES Brian
YOUNG Richard
ZAZA Sahim
LENDRUM Steven
LENTON Brian
LEONARD Steve
LEONE Filippo
LETTS Nicholas
LEWIS Patrick
LEWIS Simon
LISHMAN Neil
LIVINGSTONE Robert
LIVRIERI Luca
LODGE David
LONGHORNGuy
LONGINOTTI Marco
LOWE Francis
LUCAS Ben
LUCAS Ian
LUCAS Steve
LUCOCK Mike
McCARTNEY David
McCREERY Alan, Stuart
McGOWAN Neil
McLAUGHLIN Nick
MACKEN Shaun
MACKENZIE Andrew
MACKAY Rod
MACKEY Grant
MALLACH Howard
MANCINI Alissandro
MANLEY Jason
MANSON Kenny
MARKHAM Phil
MARSHALL Craig
MARSHALL Peter
MAYERS Kevin, Peter
MERRILL John
MILLER Dave
MILNE Alistair
MILLS Roger
MITCHELL Andy
MOLONEY Patrick
MONTGOMERY Alvin
MOORE Stuart
MORRIS Jeremy
MORRIS Simon
MOSELEY Rich
MOTLEY Pete
MOURANT Tim
MURRAY Andrew
MURRELL Graeme
MYHILL Joe
NAPIER Adam
NEAL Charles
NEWMAN Sam
NICHOLLS Brian
NOROHNHA Nuno, Miguel
O'BYRNE Aiden
O'CALLAGHAN Chris
OAKLEY Kevin
ODDY Jonathan
OFFILER Neil
OGILVIE Alex
O'MALLEY James
OVER Derek
OWENS Malcolm
PAICE Graham
PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitris
PARKER Mark
PARKER Stuart
PATTERSON Alan
PAVONE Fabrizio
PEACOCK Michael
PEACOCK Steve
PEACOCK Stuart
PEAKE Colin
PEARCE Gary
PEARSON Geoffrey
PEDRINI Alex
PENROSE Adam
PERRY Colin
PHILLIPS Andrew
PINSENT Marshall
POLLACK Shane
PORRITT Mark
POULDEN Mark
PRATT Robert
PRESTON Neil
PROTHEROE Gareth
PURCHASE Chris
RADFORD Peter
RAMNATH Vikash
RANDALL Owen
RICHARDS Gordon
RICHARDS Craig
RICHMOND Greg
RIDDICK Neville
RIDGEWELL Mark
ELPHICK Charles
ENGLISHDave
ENTWISTLE David
EVANS Martin
EVANS Simon
EVERETT Philip
EYES Paul
FINLAY Dave
FISHER Carl
FITZPATRICK Tom
FLETTON Ben
FORDHAM David
FORESHAW Wayne
FOX Steve
FOWKES Justin
FREEMAN Rob
FRENCH Jon
GAMBLE Luke
GARRATT Peter
GARWOOD Geoff
GENT James
GENTLEMAN Craig
GHIO Gianni
GIBSON Robert
GIULIANI Carlo
GLOSSMANFrankie
GLOVER Alan
GOLDTHORPE Martin
GOODALL Phillip
GRABOWSKI Jake
GRANT Paul
GRANT Malcolm
GREEN Paul
GREENE Conrad
GREENHALGH Ian
GRUNDY Andrew
GRAY Darren
GRIFFIN Edward
GRIFFITHS Dean
HALL David
HAMMOND Conrad
HAMMONDS Darren
HANNIFIN Jon
HARRIS Matt
HARROLD Greg
HARVEY Andrew
HAYES Chris
HAYES Daniel
HAYES Victor
MASON Andy
HATELEY Ross
HEADLEY James
HEARD Chris
HEINRICHS Klaus
HENLY Andrew
HICKEY Sean
HICKLING Sam
HOLMES Stuart
HOPKINS Peter
HOPPER Mandy
HORABIN Neil
HOPTON Richard
HOWIE Alistair
HOWKER Robin
HUCKVALEMalcolm
HUGHES Richard
HUMPHRIES Daniel
INGLIS George
ISMAN Alex
JAMES Errol
JARVIS Peter
JOHNSON Travis
JOLLEY Ian
JONES Grant
JONES Mark
JONES Robert
JONES Victor
JUSSAH Jah
KAVANAGH Bernard
KEEGAN Barry
KELLY Kevin
KEMP Norman
KENT Patrick
KING Roger
KITSON Craig
KOSIOR Adam
LAMPITT Richard
LANDONI Luca
LANE Paul
LANG Eddie
LAWRENCENigel
LAWRENSON Paul
LAZARIS Panos
LEANDRO Cosimo
LECOUVREUR Thierry
LEHMAN Glenn
ADDERLEY Kevin
ALLEN Chris
ALLODI Luca
AMES Darren
ANDERSON David
ANGUIGE Frank
ARDUISE Laurent
ARMSTRONG Mike
ARNAL Alain
ARTHUR Trevor
ASHURST Dean
ASPRIS George
ASTON Simon
BAGNALL Ric
BALLARD Jamie
BANNOCK Mark
BARNES Paul
BASS Martin
BATTEY Guy
BAXTER Dave
BEARD Richard
BEARMAN Lee
BELLI Simone
BERRY Wayne
BEST Ashley
BIANCHI-CERIANI Simone
BIASINI Bruno
BLAKE Tony
BLANCHARD Peter
BOAKES Simon
BOLMEER Karl
BONSALL Mike
BOOTH Mike
BORG-MARKS Clifford
BORSI Simone
BOYLE Pamela
BOYER Thomas
BREWER Spencer
BRIANT Adrian
BRIGGS John
BROWN Jim
BROWN Peter
BULMER George
BUTLER Rob
BYRNE Chris
BYRNE Matthew
BYWATERSSteve
BUCKBY Steve
CACCURI Eddy
CAIN Tim
CAMBIONI Riccardo
CAMPBELL Michael
CANDLANDTony
CAPENHURST Ray
CARRUTHERS Andrew
CARTER Eamonn
CARTWRIGHT Paul
CHAMBERS Chris
CHURCH Gary
CHURCHILL Andrew
CIPRIANI Riccardo
CLARKE Lee
COLLEDGE Mark
COLLINS Roy
COMEGLIA Paolo
COMMONS Les
COOMBES Joseph
COOPER David
COPELAND Sean
COX Byron
CRAVEN Tim
CROSS Julian
CRYER Will
CUMMINGS Paul
CURTIS Adrian
DALTON Maurice
DAND Greg
DAVIS Peter
DAVIES Simon
DAY Adam
DE'ATH Ian
DEACON Connor
DENTON Mark
De ANGELIS Marco
DeSILVESTRE Adrian
DEVENEY Matt
DOLLIVE Trevor
DOUGLAS Adam
DUNN Rod
DUNN Tony
DUTTON Alex
EARLE Michael
EDWARDS Keith
EDWARDS Ken
ELLIOTT Gavin
ELLIS Graham
Another 3 months have elapsed, the Autumn is approaching (along with the Welwyn Fair on Oct. 2nd!) and the SC
enters its fourth year. Were still firing on all 3 fronts with the newsletters, fairs andmore recentlyour Internet
Forum. This has been the big success of 2005 with 375 signed-up members since January and it puts SC members
(plus the wider Subbuteo community) in closer contact as well as providing regular information and updates on
matters which cannot wait 3 months for the next newsletter. This is a tool that previous clubs did not have at their
disposal so if you are not registered yet please sign in sometime and use it.
Sorry that the last issue of this newsletter was a bit delayed due to my printer giving up (the sixth since issue #1!)
Thats the problem with these editorials; theres so much happens in between writing them and actually printing them
off so you cant say what went wrong until the next one. For the record, my printer was experiencing overheating
problems meaning I could only print out a dozen or so sheets before giving it a long rest to cool down. You can
imagine how long it all took, and apologies if anyone received a copy with a heat streak through one (or more) of the
pages. Its since been patched up but can still only do light loads so if it struggles through its latest ordeal you should
be reading this somewhere around the 28/9 which again is slightly behind schedule. If my worst fears are realised Ill
head back down to the photocopy shop as I did with some of the earlier editions, but this will mean a slightly poorer
print quality so if you notice this you will know whats happened.
At this point I must make an appeal for some fresh, original newsletter material. Why? Well, a serious computer crash
has wiped out many of the contributions that I was keeping in reserve, some of which were quite old and their authors
no longer traceable. I realise this is turning into quite a tale of woe what with printers breaking down and now
computer hard drives being wiped clean but it really has been one of those summers! The situation is not critical as
well always have incoming contributions from our dedicated team of regulars but I dont want to overburden a
minority as we stock up again and so this is an opportunity for some new names to appear. I know there are some
members sitting on stories which would make for a great read (Ive been nagging them for long enough!) so the time
has come to do your bit for the SC newsletter.
Meantime, Id like to thank all those who have contributed to this present issue (which we just managed to fill) and
provided us with our usual array of articles. Jon whats it worth? French has been looking at Ebay prices this time,
while Graham Paice has done us a Subbuteo Scruples quiz as a follow-up to his popular Are you a true collector?
one in issue #9. Floodlights, team painting and a big rummage sale find are also featured and we round off with a
less-than-glorious tribute to Subbuteo Angling followed by the anguish of a collector with too many run-of-the-mill
items, including as the legendary ball-raising chutegreat stuff!!! :-) I then achieved my ambition of doing an
updated membership list on the back page containing 384 names for those of you with perfect reading vision.
Undoubtedly the most thought-provoking article is from Andrew Churchill, who fears for the games future in this
FISTF-dominated era and asks how we can get back to playing real Subbuteo again as opposed to Table Football?!?
I suppose I could take refuge behind a neutral statement such as all opinions expressed merely reflect those of their
author but I have to say I share most of his views on the subject. Still, its uncompromising stuff and Bruno Biasini
completes this issues centre-spread with his related piece on the World Retro League.
But why am I telling you all this when you can read the full contents list below...?
(1) Trevs Editorial (zzzzzz) (2) Club News (3) Play Subbuteo Scruples (4) The definitive floodlight guide
(5) Recent Subbuteo Prices (6) Subbuteo and Table Football - the culture clash! (7) The World Retro League
(8) A new hobby for a talented woman (8/9) My best ever Subbuteo find (10) The impossible Angling game
(11) Common Subbuteo items - the collectors curse! (12) The 2k5 membership list, sponsored by Specsavers
ISSUE #12 - SEPTEMBER 2005
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CLUB NEWS
COMING IN ISSUE 13.
SUBBUTEO CLUB AUTUMN FAIR
This will be held at the
Ludwick Family Club, Hall Grove, Welwyn Garden City, Herts. AL7 4PH

on Sunday the 2nd of October from 9:30 a.m. (Traders 9 a.m.) until 1 p.m.
LARGE HALLBRING AS MUCH AS YOU LIKE!
Within easy reach of the M1(J7), A1(J/W A414) & about 10 mins. North of the M25 (J23)

***ADMISSION AND CAR PARKING FACILITIES FREE TO ALL***
John Woolcock died recently and his funeral was held on Tuesday, May 17th 2005. He was one of the original
winners of the Subbuteo Silver Cup in 1954/55 and the exhibition Open championship cup in 1960. He beat
P.A. Adolph 2-1 in that final. John played with the celluloid figures in the Bradford Park Avenue (ref. 19) colours,
which were red/amber/black hooped shirts with white shorts.
He and I had many a discussion of the experiences we had regarding the playing of Subbuteo in the Table Soccer
Players Association Leagues of the 50s and early 60s. John played in the Highbury T.S.L. and then Ashdown T.S.L.
along with G.H. Underwood. I played in the Port Talbot and Cardiff Table Soccer Leagues. We also exchanged many
views regarding accessories, boxed games and our experience with flat figures compared to the 00 scale figures.
John was in the process of writing a book about Subbuteo and P.A. Adolph, the inventor, whom he knew very well
and the experiences he had encountered whilst playing the game. John held strong views about Subbuteo and told me
many a story of what went on in the early days. He was an Arsenal supporter through and through and I for one will
miss his long informative chats on the telephone and at the swapmeets.
God bless you John!
Gareth Protheroe
JOHN WOOLCOCK R.I.P.
Details of the Flick To Kick Cup Final Movie
The Ultimate Stadium Guide
All about HW bases
Is it time to change the rules?

.....plus a lot more, so please get those articles written up and sent in by Dec. 1st.!
This is an article about the more depressing side of Subbuteo collecting.all those common items we find in job
lots and are forced to clog up our homes with. Fair enough, some of them are quite stylish such as the F.A. CUP
for example, but how many of them do you need??? I realise there are always newcomers to the hobby who
think wow, this guys got an FA Cup - hell be saying hes got the JULES RIMET next! (erm yes, just the 3
at the moment :-) but this is for the other 90% who know theyre just bog-standard fare.

My biggest phobia has to be the BLACK SCOREBOARD which has now become totally worthless
you literally cant give them away!!! Then theres the STANDARD GOALS that come with the early sets
and at any point in time you can bet I have a dozen of these lying around. PITCHES also tend to accumulate too
fast for my liking and theyre very awkward to store. If my wife would agree to it we could solve this problem
by having all the carpets of the house made of green baize and Im sure wed still have enough left for some
matching curtains!!! In actual fact they do make damn good table cloths, which we have tried on several
occasions because they are just the right size for our dining room table.
As for the GREEN FENCE, we could go 5 times round our garden with this stuff. You can be sure that any
large batch I find will contain one because they were very useful, but from a collectable viewpoint...groan!!!
The inevitable CORNER KICKERS & THROW-IN PLAYERS will also be in there (guaranteed!) and
another safe bet is the BALL RAISING CHUTE; My God, if I ever see another one of these.
Now you may think Ive already moaned enough, but Ive barely warmed up!!! My REFEREE & LINESMEN
figures are reaching epidemic proportions, but at least you can use the bases for something useful whereas the
BALL BOYS are utterly useless!! The green CORNER FLAGS I could willingly crush on sight, and a similar
fate awaits the next box of C123 SPRINGY KEEPERS I come across!! Goals are a different matter, especially
if were talking Mondial/European/Championship ones, but what do you always get landed with?? Those bl**dy
WORLD CUP GOALS with the coloured nets that it was obligatory to buy in the 70s & early 80s. And if you
find a set of the rarer C122s dont even bother to look the bars at the back are always broken!!
Why didnt Subbuteo just break them at the factory to save the customers time???
Other annoyingly fragile bits are the ladder for the TV TOWER with 9 out of 10 getting snapped off at the top
and the projector lights for the BROWN SCOREBOARD, which break upon removal and leave a bit of plastic
in the hole to sabotage the whole thing. I sometimes silently curse those kids who had no respect for their toys!!!
Yes, I must say that Subbuteo accessories stress me out because 80% of them are not worth the plastic theyre
made of, and I threw away 3 of those C125 REBOUND BOARDS last week in sheer despair!! By the time this
is being read Ill have tried to sell my overspill items at a car boot, been to the charity shop to give the rest away
and then binned any that still remainthis should rid the house of excess garbage by the end of the summer
(a deadline imposed by my wife!) Anyway, its time to move on from accessories and give some other turkeys a
brief mention.
If its sets were talking, how many of us have heard Ive got a lovely set here from the 70s and thought Oh
my God, its the dreaded CLUB EDITION! Sure enough, they go on to describe every collectors bane (unless
you only started collecting last Thursday of course!) and you feel a bit awkward refusing an item they obviously
thought was worth a fortune. I am now at the stage where I assume that every set will be a Club Edition and in
this way Im mentally prepared for the trauma of it not being a Munich.
Something I never sniff at are the HWs, but even these can start to suck when youre on your 8th box!!
You get the voice on the phone demanding a tenner per team for some heavies and (s)he starts reeling them all
off . Ive got a BRAZIL team, then theres a nice LIVERPOOL, a red/white/blue ENGLAND one, WBA,
NEWCASTLE & ASTON VILLA. Are you interested? Hello, hello, are you still there?
Hello....
AAGGHH!!!! Common Subbuteo items
Alistair Milne
Every collectors nightmare!
SUBBUTEO ANGLING
(or how to ruin the perfect evening)
Right, Ive had this game for 5 years and not yet removed it from the box I said to my son and
Oh but Dad, its gonna be cr*p! was the reply. How do you know until youve tried it? I countered,
because you cant make a fishing game interesting I was told. Yes, I suppose he did have a point!
- And this is how our Subbuteo Angling evening began.
I took out each piece with the utmost reverence and opted for the blue fisherman while Jason (who
really couldnt give a damn) went for white. Great arent they? I said, trying to inject some
enthusiasm, and back came .I cant believe this is happening!!! Okay, so hed take some winning
over but I was still confident at this stage.
Then the board was set out. Hmm, 40 multicoloured squares all with words on which made no sense,
but all would be explained in the rulebook - wouldnt it? Well, it would have been for a keen fisherman
(or someone who had several of hours to spare) but it was lost on me so I went straight into plan B
IMPROVISE!!
My make-it-up-as-we-go-along strategy had never failed me yet whether in soccer, cricket or rugby.
Angling looked like being the toughest challenge so far but I continued with a positive outlook.
Cant wait to use the special dicer I said cheerily but was met with a stony silence. I then set about
lining up the various sets of cards with Jasons reluctant help., but into my mind came the ominous
thought that he could have been right about this game all along.
Splash cards, cast cards, fishing permits and tackle cards featuring such things as reels, keepnets, floats
and groundbait. This was getting more technical by the second and I was now feeling out of my depth.
Okay, so who goes first then? I said, praying the dicer would be a success. I hadnt got a clue what the
black numbers on it represented so we counted the red 16 ones and I got things underway with a 4.
Jason then got a 6 and we looked at each other, both knowing what would come next.
Hey, lets have a race round the board I suggested. Suits me was the reply and so off we went,
reducing the vintage Subbuteo Angling playing board to a simple a race track. Sacrilege!!! Would
anyone do this with Monopoly? Of course not, but then you can PLAY Monopoly and I defy anyone to
play this silly fishing game. As we popped the ball in and out of the dicer on our second lap I caught
sight of the Fish Weights chart with over 200 squares ranging from a 3 ounce dace to a 7 pound barbel
and this convinced me wed made the right decision.
Surprisingly, we got about 20 minutes of enjoyment out of this impromptu race game and I avoided
a lot of unwanted stress. And then a thought occurred to me.has anyone actually played Subbuteo
Angling to the rules? Is it possible? Admittedly, our attempt was pretty poor but there must be others
who have fared even worse with many too daunted to even try! I can safely say its the most
incomprehensible game Subbuteo ever madeor any other games manufacturer for that matter!
The sad thing is that in true collector fashion Id spent 5 years blissfully unaware of how poor the game
was and even have it in 2 different box variations. And just because its rubbish to play I still wouldnt
part with either one, although I doubt very much theyll be seeing daylight again in the near future.
As passionate a Subbuteo fan as I am, I must admit that this is the one that got away!
Greg Richmond
1. You have 20 LW teams for sale and someone comes up to you and says
Ill give you 200 quid for all those teamsthey are HWs arent they You reply..
A) Yes, thats right!
B) Erm, maybe, Im not sure
C) No, theyre the cheaper LWs
2. Your mate is after a rare Subbuteo item worth 20 and you find one for 1 at a car boot.
Do you...
A) Stick it straight onto Ebay to get maximum profit ?
B) Let him have it for a tenner as hes your mate ?
C) Give it to him for a quid ?
3. Somebody leaves a Munich set lying around at the end of a fair and so you take it home.
When the person makes an appeal for it do you ...
A) Keep quiet ?
B) Say you have it but finders keepers ?
C) Send it back to its former owner ?
4. You accidentally sell some HW repaints and the buyers ask for their money back.
Do you ...
A) Refuse to give any refunds ?
B) Try to persuade the buyers to keep them ?
C) Give full reimbursement ?
5. A hard-up pensioner offers you masses of old Subbuteo and asks if its worth anything.
You say.
A) Nah!
B) Ive no idea!?
C) Yes, its worth a fortune!!
Subbuteo Scruples
What would you do?
SCORING:- A) = 0 points B) = 1 point C) = 2 points
How did you fare?
10 points (max.) .A credit to both the hobby and the human race (if you were being honest:-)
8-9 pointsWeve all had our lapses I suppose, but still pretty good.
5 to 7 points ...Im not sure Id want to be doing many Subbuteo deals with you
4 points or less ...What?? You should be reading this in a room with bars at the windows!!
Graham Paice

Im by no means an expert on Subbuteo floodlights but would like to share my collecting experiences with others. I never meant my obsession with them
to go so far but you know how it is. You buy a nice variation, then another and then another and so on. Before I knew it I had a 50-strong collection of
these things and I came to the conclusion theres an almost infinite number of combinations you could come up with, including some that collectors may
not have thought of yet. So Id like to offer some thoughts and opinions on the subject.
Like most people I started out with the 70s ones with the girders and was surprised to find that these came in a sort
of light beige as well as whiteat first I thought theyd just yellowed with age! Then it became clear there were
different colours of wires you could get. Ive no idea how many there are altogether but Ive currently got red,
blue, green, black and white. The bulb cases themselves also vary, with either a black or grey casing to hold the
bulb in but what I didnt realise for years (although its obvious now) is that the holes on the front vary in both
their number and the pattern theyre arranged in. As for the bases, there are the bulky ones taking the barrel-type
batteries and then there are the flatter ones requiring the larger, single flat battery. Some of these lights worked by
means of a switch on the side of the base unit while others had a little red connecting pin you plugged into the
base, either at the side or on the top (you see, even there we have several variationsnot to mention the slightly
different types of connecting pin you could get!!) I think by the time youve combined and multiplied all these
combinations (whos good at maths?) we could already be talking about needing several hundred floodlights if you
wanted to cover ALL the possible permutations. Now, even Im not that fanatical but I do like to have at least one
of all the things mentioned (wires, switches, bulb cases, scaffold and base type/colour). Id say these girder-style
floodlights, which most of us are familiar with, had the most combos by far, but this is to be expected as they were
around for much longer than the other typesalmost 20 years in fact. But others were produced before and since.
<<< The early 60s ones had nothing more than red fence poles as pylons and some had
a Subbuteo sticker on the base (which I thought was added by previous owners but was
in fact how they were sold!) Again, the tops were slightly different and the majority of
early ones had an all-in-one silver bulb box casing with a lighter silver front and just 6
holes. Of these there was a single hole in the middle of the top row of 3 through which
the bulb shone! There was nothing like the sheer quantity of variations one finds with
the girder-type floodlights although its worth noting that the earliest versions had
SUBBUTEO printed in red letters on the tops of the bases before this disappeared after
a very brief period. I have two such lights in an all-white boxed set I found recently.
Ah, box variations!! No, I mustnt get started on these but I just had to include a photo (above) of this particular gem.
I must say however that these early lights are very unsteady and tend to wobble about all over the place when assembled. The poles also
tended to keep coming out of their holes which is a nuisance, whether it be the 3 on the bottomof the bulb box or the 3 on the base.
Maybe its because they had to be bent to converge fromthe wide base towards the narrower top. Incidentally, there are 4 holes on the
base altogether and I never did work out what the other one was for ??? Im sure it must be blatantly obvious!
The pillar-style floodlights dated fromabout
1990 onwards as I recall and these are my
personal favourites, if only because they
take about 10% of the time to assemble and
are far more sturdy. They have all-in-one
solid pylons with the wires incorporated and
so are less fiddly and intricate than all their
predecessors. I have a beautiful set of these
in a mint, glossy 61222 box with a foam
insert which looks quite splendid (see pics).
I was also fortunate enough to find a shop still selling these for 4.99 a box at the end of the 90s and so bought a further 3 sets but theyve completely
disappeared since. I always find these lights more reliable than the other types with less faulty contacts etc. but theres little to report in the way of design
diversity. Unfortunately (despite being the most elegant-looking lights yet) they still have a pretty dismal lighting capacity in common with all the
previous onesits a pity this never improved at all in over 30 years! One major drawback with them is that they only work off batteries and not the
mains and therefore cannot be used with the appliance below....
This finally brings me on to the C161 mains adapters in my collection. Although not improving the actual lighting they at least
keeps it constant and prevent an even dimmer ray as the batteries start to fade. How practical they are when playing is
debateable because they leave a trail of wires everywhere when youve got all 4 lights plugged in. Still, theyre a lot cheaper
than buying 8 big barrel batteries after every few games. Admittedly, battery technology has improved over the years with the
advent of Duracell and other long-life alkaline versions but these adapters are still an overall better option in my view.
I got a boxed one of these froma website about a year ago and the first thing I did was check it with the unboxed one I had.
Guess what? The connecting pins were a different colour but Ive so far resisted the temptation to go hunting for other
variations - Id have to consider counselling if I ever got to that stage! Also, the C161 adapter is only a peripheral item in many
respects but still part of the overall floodlight package and therefore worthy of mention.
Its a pity that Subbuteo havent followed up on the floodlight theme for a while and Id venture to guess that the pillar ones above will be the last, but
Ima big fan of themand think they were Subbuteos most fascinating accessory. When one considers how floodlights have evolved in football stadia
over the past decade or so its easy to see the scope available for new models. I doubt there will be any but Id certainly be at the front of the queue if so!
I hope this article will be of interest to readers and that I havent missed out anything too glaring (no pun intended:-) in my all-too-brief summary.
Thanks for reading.
Brian Yates
LET THERE BE LIGHT!
But wait! What if the guy wanted 300 quid because hed been studying Ebay, or what if he said make me an offer and I had this
dilemma??? How high was I prepared to go? At a rough estimate there were at least 40 teams in there and even at a fiver a box
wed be talking 200.00 but I was hoping hed just want to shift them as a job lot at a fraction of this price. How would I pay
though because I hadnt come out with a huge wad of cash and was totally unprepared for this eventuality Thoughts were racing
through my mind but these were cut short when a voice said you can have those old football teams for 8.00 if you like I have to
say that this was one of the sweetest sounds Ive ever heard, even to this day, and I could hardly control my inner elation at that
precise moment!
I tried not to sound too enthusiastic in my responseyeah, okay thenbut I was already doing a mental lap of honour!!
I fumbled awkwardly for a tenner I knew I had and then handed it over, not really caring whether the change came back or not.
8? 10? Who cares? My focus was fully on the box and nothing else in the room seemed to exist...it was surreal!! I was in some
kind of altered state which is difficult to describe, but I mechanically took the two pound coins and picked up the box which was
now mine and what a great feeling it was to be carrying about 40 HW teams under my arm.
Im sure the seller was just as pleased as me to be going home without this burden and he looked extremely thankful that Id
relieved him of it. We exchanged a few pleasantries about the great game and how much fun wed had with it back in the 70s and
he said pity nobody wants it any more he said (gasp!!! what???) Er, no, thats a real shame isnt it!? I replied, and I later felt a
little contrite at having been less than honest on this point. But what could I say? Its one of those situations where telling the truth
would be bordering upon insanity!!!
So I set off on the journey home, booty in hand, and it only occurred to me then that I hadnt even finished looking round the sale.
Id barely done half a lap and there were another half a dozen stalls outside which Id totally neglected. Mind you, as I was on foot
Id have been hard pushed to carry anything else along with this 3 foot (1m) by 2 foot (70cms) box. The excitement of that 5
minute walk home was quite intense because Id only checked 2 of the teams, believe it or not. Well, how could they not be a
bargain for 8 quid??? Needless to say, as soon as I got home I set about this task in earnest.
The usual suspects appeared first, the refs 11, 13, 18 et al and then things suddenly got interesting. Out popped a #99 Torino (one I
badly wanted at the time) and there followed a little batch of Italian teams including refs. 91 96 and 97WOW!! Back to a few
more common ones and then a spate of teams in the 30s-40 range, of which #36 was the pick of the bunch. There was also a #38
but it had a broken player and I remember feeling disappointed about this. Amazing isnt it how you find a boxful of gems and get
disappointed with a less-than-perfect item!? I quickly chased away any notion of disappointment and the very last team to come
out was a #70.what a bonus!! I had 3 players already but here was a practically mint condition full team on white outers with red
innersbeautiful!!!
The market value of this lot must have been approaching 1000.00 at the time, but this seemed irrelevant because I had no
intention of parting with them. I considered it to be 1000.00 saved rather than 1000.00 earned but nonetheless one has to do
something with the swaps! I managed to shift a few via the exchange route, including 4 of my fairly common refs for a #24. I then
enrolled on Ebay to sell those I thought Id be stuck with and got some surprising priceswell in excess of what youd get these
days because it was still before all the common heavies had been rounded up and/or before collectors realised just how common
they actually were!
A #49 team stands out in my memory because it fetched 30+ and there was even a WBA (ref. 3) that went for 23.00maybe
because it had the stripe down the arms?? So as you can tell I had a good time just offloading the spares! I eventually ploughed
most of the profits back into teams I still needed, something I hadnt originally planned but thats what collecting does to you and
the more you get the more desperate you become to get the rest!!! Still, at the back of my mind was that if I was only spending the
money from the proceeds of my find and (due to the some of sums involved) this was a reassuring thought I can tell you!!
Before this fortunate discovery I had no fixed targets, just being happy to round up odd wants as and when they appeared. Then
when youve just found about 20 rare teams this suddenly makes targets which before were out of reach worth considering. Should
I go for the 1-190? No, there was still an awful lot of spending required to get there and I wasnt banking on any more major finds
like this one. I waited a few more months before finally deciding that #s 1 to 81 would be my goal as I already had over 50 of these
and had some serious currency still in reserve to get the rest. The best deal I got (and I hope my fellow swapper agrees from his
viewpoint) was a #20 for my #91 and I gradually got rid of all my post-90 Italian teams in this way.
I am pleased to report that I now have the full run of teams I wanted, something I finally achieved earlier this year with a ref. #61.
I have so far resisted the temptation to go for any more outside of this range, as well as all the strip variations within it. I still keep a
lookout for HW teams though and have been back to the venue where I got lucky several times since. As I suspected, my find was
purely a one-off and I havent had a sniff since but every time I go in there it brings back memories of that happy day! The man
who sold me the teams hasnt been back since either, but maybe its just as well as he may since have discovered Ebay which was
still in its infancy back then. Ive also visited another 50 or so rummage sales in the meantime, feeling that they could be an
untapped source of Subbuteo, but can assure everyone that this is not the case.
I must have found more quality teams on that particular day than in all my searching before and since, so for this reason it was easily
my best ever Subbuteo find.
Adam Napier
Subbuteo it was always something my son did at his Dads on his weekends there, and then suddenly it all moved
back in with me this year. My garage, loft, cupboards and any available surface is now filled to overflowing with
these little green boxes, my garage (which is a double size space) has become a playing area, with teams all slot-
ted into place on shelves ready for their next fixture and the pitch brushed, hoovered and pristine awaiting their
appearance down the tunnel. Even the garage door gets shut now to stop the cat sleeping on the hallowed turf!
Memories of himself playing on the lumpy carpet in my flat during my late teens, how things have moved on! The
commentary still goes on and Andy Gray should watch his job with the quality of as it happens observations.
Well if you cant beat em, you might as well join em and for my birthday my son gave me my very own team
Nails By Dee FC, who are incidentally, still awaiting their match debut. I think the boys are afraid of the stiff com-
petition! Their smart kit in plum, each with one black arm is something any championship team would be proud to
wear. I was not given a goalie but that was soon rectified from the stocks of spares in the aforementioned garage.
Next I found I was regularly paying for items won on eBay with my paypal account, taking daily deliveries of more
of these little boxes and (thanks to Chris Stapleton) making up black and white boxes of a similar ilk. Not to be out
done by the skilled painting done by my youngest child, Mr Stapleton and others, and being a skilled nail artist I
offered to paint up a team or two, though my airbrush has not found its niche here yet, low and behold a team of
naked players arrives with little pots of Humbrol paint and a paint guide from the very pages of this publication.
Austria Wein is my first effort and having mixed the exact perfect shade of lilac I start applying the paint.
Being mostly Scandinavian they featured a few blond players but some black and brown coiffured heads also
appeared.
I enjoy the outcome and adulation from my beloved so much that I soon ask for another team and Stuttgart is next,
followed by erm oh Ive forgotten but they had green stripes. So now I have a new hobby which I really enjoy,
am not feeling abandoned and out done by these little plastic men, and am looking forward to the new season of
games and witnessing first hand, my teams, of which I hope there will be many, many more scoring and winning
those all important trophies.
Vive la Subbuteo!

Dee Westwood
www.nailsbydee.com

My best ever Subbuteo find
I was at a local rummage sale about 4 years ago having seen it in a small ad in the paper. I had previously attended this venue
and there had been a healthy turnout of stallholders even though Id come away empty-handed on that occasion. I didnt really
fancy my chances this time either (judging by the type of goods usually for sale at these places) but have always believed it
takes just one stall to change everything and make my day a success.
I got to the placea small church and there were about 20 stalls which filled the room along 3 sides plus a couple more
crammed into the middle. There was quite an intimate atmosphere in the place which was perhaps due to so many of the church
attenders knowing each other and the average age was quite high, certainly as far as the stallholders were concerned. This is no
bad thing because if anyone is to have the sort of stuff Im after straight from the attic its likely to be someone whos
touching 50 by now...sorry to remind HW collectors of this!
My first impression of the goods on offer was not too favourable because there were 2 stalls with piles of old clothes stacked up
on them and the next one along was an elderly lady selling cakes for the Heart Foundation. The man with the vinyl records had
a few buyers around his table but this wasnt for me either so I continued on up the right side of the hall which ended with
somebody doing a raffle. Pretty uninspiring stuff so far but still early days with 2 full sides left.
So I turned left as I continued my anti-clockwise journey to go along the top wall and this began with a lot of nice china
ornaments (if thats your thing) before yet more clothes appeared. A few more stalls and then suddenly...BINGO!! Beneath a
table I saw a large brown box which Id probably have walked past 9 times out of 10 but this one had the word Subbuteo
scrawled on it in black felt pen!!! I literally dived down and opened the top flaps and there they all werea whole box full of
70s teams!!!!!!!!! My entire day had been transformed within those few seconds :-)
Subbuteo a new hobby for a talented woman!
Whats appreciating and depreciating in the unpredictable world of Subbuteo trading? Here are some of the things
Ive noticed over the past 6 months or so on Ebay and various websites (but please feel free to disagree!)
GOING UP
Floodlights You couldnt give these away at one time but will now get a fiver each, while early
80s boxed sets have been going for 20+ on a regular basis!
Rugby sets These have gone up considerably, especially if containing any of the rarer teams.
European Cup C204... This rocketed into double figures as Liverpool lifted the trophy back in July and are
still there as I write, even for unboxed ones.
Premier League Trophy. Been on the up for a few months, and especially now the new seasons kicked off
Flat teams Some of the rarer ones are going for big money right now. Even as I write a Celtic
(admittedly in a box) has just sold for 77. You can get carded ones on strips for 15
on websites or celluloids in packs for 10 upwards. This is a big increase on what
theyd have sold for a couple of years ago.
Early 80s goals Always sought after because of their limited availability. Mondial and European ones
are especially popular and in good boxes have been going for over 20 recently.
Named boxes Whether club or international teams theres a lot of interest at the moment which is
reflected in prices. One extreme case was a Morocco team which fetched 150!!!
Rosettes Not sure whether Subbuteo collectors or football fans are buying these but there was
a Chelsea one which went for 45 the other week and then a couple more at 20+
The statuettes market seems to be quite buoyant too!
COMING DOWN
Cricket sets. Most collectors now have these and theres little new demand appearing
Munich Editions. Ive seen about 6 of them on Ebay already this year, some in vgc and I dont
recall any of them passing the 300 mark. Were they as rare as we all first thought?
Early soccer sets.Prices are lower than ever and about half of what they were a couple of years back.
Common HwsStruggling to break into double figures and hanging around for weeks on websites
Repainted teamsToo many repainters offering them these days and so supply is far outstripping demand.
Subbuteo C157 W.C. Rarely sell for 40 having reached twice this amount in their heyday. The same is true
of the C171 League Cup to a lesser extent.
Brochures.. Maybe collectors have read up on Subbuteo via the Internet and so theyre required less.
Previously very dear (for what they are), but high prices were unsustainable and their
bubble has finally burst!
And finally, a quick laymans guide to some Ebay terminology.
Vintage/classic Anything preceding the year 2000
Rare Havent seen one yet this week
Mega/ultra rare month
Very collectable Cant wait to get rid of it!
1960s item Seems quite old?
found in attic Found at car boot
Mint condition Looks okay to me
Played with/used condition Wrecked!
UPPERS & DOWNERS - The Subbuteo roller coaster!
Caveat Emptor!
JON FRENCH
What is Subbuteo?
There has been a lot of confusion about what Subbuteo is of late, and theres a surprisingly simple answer. Subbuteo is a table-top soccer game played with
official Subbuteo products to Subbuteo rules. I can already sense Ive upset a few players of a vaguely similar game called table football here just by
stating the obvious, but theres no getting away fromthis basic fact. Unfortunately, there are many table football players deluding themselves that theyre
playing Subbuteoor is it other people they are trying to fool? If its the former then fair enough, (although youd think theyd know whether they were
using Subbuteo equipment or not!) whereas if its the latter then in my view this represents a serious threat to the hobbys future.
Real Subbuteo used to be played throughout the UKand beyond and there was a flourishing Subbuteo league network as recently as the late-80s both in the
UK and abroad. Anyone with old copies of Subbuteo News can see for themselves the highly-developed regional league system for the UK but this was
before they became supplanted by the ETSFA, FISTF and all those other acronyms. Interestingly, they do not contain the word Subbuteo in themanywhere
despite many of their players themselves claiming to be Subbuteo players. It was these newly-founded federations which changed the rules, took
Subbuteo away from its roots and over the past 20 years have made the game virtually unrecognisable!
Today we have a lot of FISTF players using high-tech bases (some of which can cost 60.00 a set!!!) and Ive been to tournaments where the players
themselves look like blocks of wood rather than footballers. The game is now becoming a science instead of a sport, played almost exclusively in straight
lines with players just being slidwith the help of polish applied to the bases over great distances. Any resemblance between football and this game
(recently referred to as glorified shove halfpenny on the Subbuteo forum) is coincidental, as things such as unrealistic 8-1-1 formations will testify.
Subbuteo was always billed as the replica of association football and if it loses this then it loses 50% of its appeal straightaway for many of us!
However, if you try and tell a table football player he isnt playing Subbuteo you can expect a backlash. Youll be told that the game has evolved and the
word inclusive will usually crop up at some point too. Is this not always the language used when outside groups seek to impose themselves on their hosts?
Why do Subbuteo enthusiasts, keen to play and talk about the original version of the game and maintain a tradition, owe it to another group to share their
hobby with them? They dont!!! Obviously, its easy to use cliches like narrow-minded to stigmatise those to whomSubbuteo means Subbuteo but this is
merely the empty rhetoric of the liberal fascist who demands acceptance and concessions fromothers .or else!!
At this point its appropriate to recall what happened in practice when groups of Table Football players (all members of the same community, apparently?)
descended on a Subbuteo forum where, instead of mixing, some of them spent 12 months shut off in their private sections (following an insane decision by
the webmaster to grant themthese!!) periodically insulting Subbuteo collectors with whomthey had little in common. The supreme irony was that when
members of the Subbuteo Club asked for their own private section (bearing in mind it was a SUBBUTEO forum!!) the TF players closed ranks and united
with one voice to oppose this. Now, no-one is saying that Subbuteo had all the good guys and the TF players were all villains but wasnt there something
sadly inevitable here? And what does it tell us about how TF players perceive Subbuteo in relation to themselves? My interpretation of this is that Subbuteo is
a useful vehicle for themto climb aboard but they wont be grateful passengers and will soon want to be in the driving seat! But is this surprising?
Lets face it, if you asked a group of Scalextric fans to give up part their Scalextric chatroomto accommodate other slot car racing groups there'd be uproar,
and Im sure if a load of Dinky and Corgi collectors invaded the Matchbox preserve (its all miniature cars you know!) wed have a similar scenario.
Pushing this to an extreme we could even have Barbie Dolls muscling in on the Action Man scene with results too horrible to contemplate!!! This is not to
say that none of the individuals concerned will get along on a personal level but in the long term youre bound to get a power struggle. Rival cliques will
avoid each other, simply through a lack of interest in the others' activities (however superficially "similar" they appear) and what will ultimately happen is
that the most tightly knit and organized groups will dominate! In the case of the Table Football lobby we have seen how they all stick together (perhaps due
to having regular social meetings whereas the collector tends to be a more solitary animal) and then use their block vote to further their own specific agenda.
It must be said that FISTF is an enormous organisation these days (comparatively speaking) and dwarfs Subbuteo, which I dont believe even has an official
body to represent it. You join a Subbuteo Club and the next thing you know youre playing something you barely recognise fromthe game you once knew.
Several aspiring players have made this error and some adapt, some give up and others accept table football as a forced compromise knowing that to play
competitively these days its a case of either accept FISTF or dont bother. The remedy is the gradual creation of true Subbuteo clubs, not affiliated to any
TF Association, but this is a long-termgoal given the current situation where Subbuteo is now a minority sport within an already minority sport. However, I
think that in time there could be a demand to play real Subbuteo again and the beginnings of this are already visible in the formof increasingly-frequent
competitions played to the proper Advanced Rules. These are often collector-led initiatives because Subbuteo collectors have an appreciation of the games
history (a trait lacking in most TF competitors) and playing to Subbuteo rules with Subbuteo teams is a natural expression of this.
It is noticeable that a lot of Subbuteo players are interested in the full hobby and so will collect as well to varying degrees. For them, collecting (whether it be
different teams or accessories to enhance their playing experience) and playing Subbuteo go together, whereas TF players are only interested in their tourna-
ments and the minimumgear they need to compete in games. They therefore have no affinity with Subbuteo products which are not competitive for table
football in 2005 because a new generation of FISTF rules have changed the style of play to render them obsolete. Imsure that there are TF players who have
never even seenlet alone played withany equipment made by the company whose game they purport to be playing!!!
Regrettably, Hasbro have done Subbuteo no favours by scaling down production to a trickle and delivering items which no longer capture the public
imagination. This is despite being in the privileged position of having sole rights to the game and thus determining where it goes. Wouldn't it be great if
boxed Subbuteo sets became popular again, selling in thousands and youngsters pored over the rules of the official game with great expectancy before creat-
ing their own leagues as they did some years back. A game for the masses once more, not just an elite few who can afford the latest in base technology and
who care more about sliding 10 discs effectively than playing a realistic soccer game bearing some relation to the real thing. However, theres no way
Hasbro's current crop of products are going to inspire this resurgence of interest - an already difficult enough task in this computer era - so I wouldnt want to
raise any hopes here. I'mafraid that having Subbuteo under American ownership was always going to end this way.
I think its commendable that so many independent suppliersoften individuals are prepared to fill the vacuum and produce equipment (teams in particular)
that enthusiasts want to buy and play with. Because they cater for a connaisseur clientele their products are inevitably better than the mass-produced,
general-public range fromHasbro but you will already have guessed the punchline here..it just isnt Subbuteo! In fairness, most of them(though not all)
recognise this and call their products Table Soccer/Football ones as opposed to Subbuteo, perhaps because there are copyrights and patents to consider.
Wouldnt it be nice if the Table Football players were equally aware that the game they playoften with these aforementioned products is not actually
Subbuteo? I sometimes wish that Subbuteo players and collectors would do more to remind themof this FACT.
Perhaps the main point of this article is to say that Subbuteo has an identity crisis. Even frombona fide Subbuteo fans I sometimes hear defeatist reasoning
such as our community is small so we have to widen the definition of Subbuteo to keep the numbers up, but is this not just a quicker route to extinction?
In the long term you can only save Subbuteo by getting more people to play or collect it and not by taking similar things and calling them Subbuteo.
This is the crux of what I amsaying and with luck it will serve as a wake-up call. If not then the game once known as the replica of association football will
cease to exist as we knew it, absorbed into FISTF where it will lose everything but its name. Should this happens there will only be a dwindling number of
collectors left to keep the Subbuteo tradition alive.

Andrew Churchill
The World Retro League
By Bruno Biasini
The World Retro League is a worldwide Subbuteo club formed to accommodate Subbuteo players who enjoy playing an
older version of the game. For this reason the rules of play, and playing materials, are limited to the time period between
initial creation of the game up to 1989. Also included are the Football Simulation Rules. These rules were written in June
2003, modified in December 2004, and are designed to make Subbuteo closely simulate football.
Alessandro Benedetti, in the region of Tuscany, Italy, held the first official World Retro League tournament during the
month of May in the year 2004. The tournament was played by 8 Italian players under the playing rules of 1985, with all
players using either heavy weight or Zeugo heavy weight copy type playing figures. Shortly after this tournament a player
ranking system was put in place, and a tournament criteria created. The tournament criteria simplifies the tournament
hosting structure by allowing players to hold tournaments in the their homes amongst friends, while still maintaining the
possibility of holding events in larger venues with many players.
The main goal of the World Retro League is to help revive the game of Subbuteo. This is to be accomplished by reintro-
ducing the game from its roots, promoting the original ideals of the game's creator, and reintroducing the game into the
proper market place within the consumer game market.
The World Retro League currently has active players in Italy, Belgium, and Canada. These three countries have managed
to place almost 60 players in the current ranking system. The League tournament criterion and ranking system are ex-
plained below.
World Retro League Tournament Criteria
Below are the criteria for an official World Retro Tournament.
1) A tournament must consist of 4 players or more.
2) Only acceptable playing figures and bases will be flats, heavyweight (molded or bar), lightweight, lightweight
Waddingtons, Zeugo and Santiago heavyweight copies, hybrid figures, and Zombies. Pro bases, Hasbro
solid bases, and new Parodi bases, are not valid.
3) Any pitch and ball size type is acceptable, but only one type of pitch, or ball type, may be used in a specific
tournament. This is to be determined by the tournament organizer.
4) Playing rules may include anything from the Advanced Rules to rules written prior to the original FISTF rules.
The Football Simulation Rules are also valid. A tournament organizer may implement a football formations
rule, if so desired. Any form of the FISTF rules, old or current, and anything in between, are not included.
5) Each tournament must consist of a round robin first round with a minimum of 3 players per group. One or two
matches may be played between each group competitor. At least one player must be eliminated from each
round robin first round group. This is to be followed by a direct elimination phase of either single or two leg
matches. Two leg matches may be decided by the away goals rule. A tournament final must consist of one
match direct elimination, but one replay will be allowed.
Any tournament abiding by the above conditions should be reported to me through e-mail at: bimbo_d_oro@hotmail.com
I will require a list of all results, which includes all player names. Plate competition matches should also be reported, as
they affect the ranking tables. These results will then be calculated into the ranking system, and the appropriate ranking
points will be allotted.
Should there be any questions concerning any of the above criteria, please e-mail the above address.
Word documents of the World Retro League tournament criteria, tournament ranking system, the complete ranking list,
and the Football Simulation Rules may be obtained by e-mailing
Bruno Biasini: bimbo_d_oro@hotmail.com
The World Retro League website may be found in both English and Italian versions at: www.worldretroleague.com
Thanks a lot Andrew.definitely no punches pulled there! How better to follow that than by hearing from Bruno Biasini,
who runs the World Retro League? This is for genuine Subbuteo players who still play the game as originally intended
(as a close replica to association football) so please read carefully and think whether you can contribute to a Subbuteo
renaissance Ed.