Anthony Braxton, February 5 1995, WKCR-FM, New

York
copyright 1995, 1999, Ted Panken
Braxton came to WKCR on a cold Tuesday afternoon during a rehearsal break for a
three-night retrospective series of concerts presenting his orchestral music. e brought
!ith him a box of cassettes of recent" unissued material and a fe! recent C#s. Be
un!ound the first half-hour of the program" eating Chinese food and sipping a beer$
then the discussion began. Braxton%s previously visited me at WKCR in &ovember
'(()" concluding a !eek at the Knitting *actory !ith his +uartet. The follo!ing
conversation is a composite of the proceedings of the t!o intervie!s.
The '((, intervie! began !ith a reference to the -ac.rthur /rant received by Braxton
in '((0. The 1ohn T. and Catherine 2. -ac.rthur *oundation a!ards some ,3 grants
each year to scientists" artists" social activists and others. The a!ard has become kno!n
as a 4genius grant"4 amounting to a sum of money in the six figures" spread over a
period of five years" to be used as !ished by the recipient.
5-usic6 Comp.')0" &orth!est Creative 7rch. 8'(9(:$ Comp. '0; 8'((3:$
Braxton<=moker<-engelberg 8'((0:" 4ot ouse4>
TP: -any things have happened since !e last met" and ? guess the most notable and
most public is that you are the recipient of a -c.rthur grant" !hich obviously has given
you +uite a bit of flexibility to reali@e various ambitious proAects.
AB: Well" ? !as very surprised and grateful. ? see the -c.rthur *oundation as an
example of the real possibilities here in our country. Certainly" ? !as not really directing
myself to!ard having the kind of involvement !ith my !ork that !ould bring in any
kind of money$ by '(B3" it !as clear that ? had committed to a direction that !ould
guarantee economic complexities. =o for the -c.rthur to come to me Aust before
moving into the ,3s time cycle" ? am very grateful and ? feel fortunate.
.nd yet" at the same time" ? have no illusions about my position or my !ork. *rom the
beginning ? only sought to respond to those factors !hich !ere in the air in the period
!hen ? came up" in the '(,3s and %;3s. ? am very grateful that my !ork symbolically
has been endorsed on this level. But in fact" hmm. . .? !as never interested in an
unendorsement or an endorsement" although ? am very happy to be a recipient from this
incredible organi@ation.
TP: The concerts this !eekend are sponsored by the Tri-Centric *oundation" !hich ?%ll
ask you to discuss. Was this organi@ation in the !orks before you received the
-ac.rthur *ello!ship" or did the grant make it possible to establish itC
AB: The Tri-Centric *oundation is the name of the platform ? hope to build in the next
time cycle. ?n fact" this platform had already come into being" in terms of primary
structures" before the -ac.rthur.
By Tri-Centric *oundation" ? am referring to a platform that !ill" one" give me an
opportunity to further the processes of my musics" and the !ork of the Tri-Centric
Dnsemble" !hich has become a primary component in terms of my !ork and the hope ?
have for my !ork.
T!o" the Tri-Centric *oundation !ill be the platform that ? hope !ill give the
possibility for artists !ho have related sensibilities" !ho are interested in the
exploratory musics" or at least artists !ho have a relationship !ith their !ork that has
the kind of value !here it !ill be pursued !hether or not the marketplace endorses it"
!hether or not the marketplace supports it 8?%ll come back to that later:.
.nd three" the Tri-Centric *oundation !ill be" for me" a kind of platform for intellectual
discussion and documentation for those individuals !ho are thinking about the
exploratory possibilities of creative music and the role and the relationship of music to
composite society and the ability of creativity" and imagination" and science" and history
and mythology to provide the kind of positive balances !here" as a nation" !e can begin
to move into the third millennia in a !ay that !ould be consistent !ith the !onderful
properties that !e have in our country. Dven though everything is complex" on all three
planes" ? am very grateful to be an .merican and to have had the experience of coming
up in this great country of ours. The Tri-Centric *oundation. . .!ell" it%s like .merica" in
that it seeks to celebrate the !onder of universality and ho! universal balances are
reflected in every direction -- and !hen approached !ith the right balances" that it might
be possible to set the constructs in place for the challenges of the next time cycle.
=o ? !as very grateful to see the Tri-Centric *oundation come together before the
-ac.rthur. We began last summer rehearsing. #uring that period ? discovered that"
even as a virtuoso complainer" in fact" ? !as really very fortunate" because some of our
most talented and profound masters have decided to make time to help me !ith my
proAect. .nd in that spirit of giving" the musicians" men and !omen from every sector
of our country" or from many sectors of our country" !ould come together to give an old
crut@er like me an opportunity to hear some of the extended piece and" in making that
decision" to give me a kind of symbolic vibrational endorsement and kind of help"
spiritual help to continue my !ork.
?t !ould happen at a time that !ould really help me. .s you kno!" musicians like
myself" !ho have in the last )3 and 03 years" and in the last )"333 years" tried to
practice their craft and practice it based on their value systems" have historically met
complexities. -y understanding of this time period is that nothing has changed.
=ymbolically and vibrationally for me" this !ould really complete the ritual change of
this time cycle.
The heart of my effort" from the beginning" has al!ays been about the hope to change
oneself" to change the community" and to find the kind of vibrational alignment that
could reflect the kind of spiritual-unspiritual values of the individual" or *riendly
Dxperiencer. .nd so" to ans!er your +uestion" the Tri-Centric *oundation and its related
ensembles !ould be part of my hope and strategy for evolving my !ork" for creating a
context !here ? can learn from colleagues -- colleagues being children" men" !omen"
scientists" ventrilo+uists" physicists" herbists" geologists.
-y vie!point of creativity is that everything is connected. ?t Aust depends on !hich axis
the connections are made upon. When ? think about the next thousand years" ? find
myself hoping that ? !ill continue to have opportunities to meet and !ork and learn
from the great people of .merica" and the great people of Darth" and the !onderful
spirits and non-spirits !hich help to hold this experience.
TP: Well" it seems that your creativity has al!ays been linked !ith collectivity" and
that finding the ..C- )3 years ago !as a key that unlocked a realm of possibilities
that could be actuali@ed through its existence.
AB: *or instance" me receiving the -ac.rthur -- ho! !onderful. ? am really very
grateful. But ? am not interested in losing my balance in any !ay" because in fact" you
are right. The ..C-" the .ssociation *or The .dvancement of Creative -usicians"
!hich !as the organi@ation that ? had the incredible good fortune to discover and
become part of in the %;3s" !ould in fact represent a point of definition in my life
experiences.
The first day that ? returned home to Chicago" after a three-year period in the .rmy" ?
!ould" because of my cousin Rafiki" be made a!are of the concert series at the Eincoln
Center in Chicago" !here the ..C- !as coming together. ? immediately !ent to
Eincoln Center and met my old friend Roscoe -itchell" !ho introduced me to -uhal
Richard .brams and brought me into the .ssociation for the .dvancement of Creative
-usicians.
TP: Where had you met Roscoe -itchell previouslyC
AB: Roscoe and ? !ent to Wilson 1unior College together in '(;)" %;F" some!here in
that time period. ?t !as in that period that ? began to discover the dynamic implications
of the post-.yler musics. .nd Roscoe -itchell !ould open up ne! possibilities for me.
Dven in '(;)" he had already arrived at a dynamic creative music. Roscoe" along !ith
1oseph 1arman and -uhal Richard .brams" !ould in the early period begin to build on
the /anges of the post- Coleman processes" build on the /anges of the !ork of Charlie
-ingus. Their !ork !ould open up my life in a !ay that ? can never thank them enough
for.
TP: Where !ere you in your o!n development at the time that you met Roscoe
-itchellC
AB: Well" by the time ? met Roscoe -itchell" ? had been kicked out of maybe ,33
sessions for calling 4Take *ive4 and 4Blue Rondo . Ea Turk.4 .nd ? !as discovering
that as an .frican-.merican !ho !as deeply involved in the music of 2aul #esmond"
there seemed to be a context of complexities that ? !ould have to get used to. Roscoe
!ould help to expose me to musicians that ? did not kno! about.
*rom that point" after getting out of the .rmy" ? met Claudine 5.mina Claudine -yers>.
.mina and .Aaramu 5a veteran ..C- drummer> gave me my first concert" gave me the
opportunity to have the first performance in Chicago. We !orked together for a period
of a couple of years. ?n fact" .mina and .Aaramu !ould take me to &e! Gork City for
the first time" and it !ould be in their company !here ? !ould begin to learn about the
greater dynamics taking place in &e! Gork" along !ith the .merican master
percussionist Billy art. ? feel very fortunate that in my 8+uote-un+uote: 4so-called
career4 that ? have had the good fortune to meet such incredible individuals" and ? am
grateful for that.
?n that time period and !ith that organi@ation" or at least !ith that group of people" ?
!ould have the opportunity to better understand my o!n experience and experiences"
and ?%d have a broader context to reflect on a context that !ould give me the opportunity
to learn from the .merican master visionary -uhal Richard .brams. aving the
opportunity to meet -r. -uhal Richard .brams !ould change my life in every !ay. ?
think -r. .brams is a great man" and ? do not use the term lightly. -r. .brams !ould
spearhead the movement into the .ssociation for the .dvancement of Creative
-usicians. e of course !as one of the original founders. But more than that" -r.
.brams !as the original president of the ..C-.
?n this time period" -uhal tends to underplay his influence. .nd ? understand it" because
in fact" Aust concerning his o!n !ork" -r. .brams has evolved a body of musics and
thoughts !hich are dynamic and unparalleled. -y hope in the future !ould be that his
!ork !ould someho! be reexamined for !hat it is" as a dynamic offering of restructural
and creative musics that !ill be consistent !ith the breakthroughs occurring in this time
period" as it !ill relate to the next thousand years. e%s a great musician in the tradition
of the master musicians !ho have come to reshape and give us unlimited possibilities
for creativity and exploration. -uhal is an important .merican restructuralist thinker"
and the music is a component in his thoughts.
aving said that" ? !ould also say that -r. .brams did help. e helped all of us. e
!as one of the guiding forces in the early period. e !as the first president of the
.ssociation *or the .dvancement of Creative -usicians. -r. .brams !ould help me to
believe in myself and not be afraid to go forth !ith my beliefs. e is a kind man" and a
very spiritual man" a hard !orker" and he understands the importance of individual
development and pursuits" as !ell as the significance of the group. e has great
kno!ledge and many different directions. ? have learned so much from him" there%s no
!ay ? could possibly detail !hat ? have learned from the man. Kno!ing him and having
the opportunity to !ork !ith him has been one of the Aoys in my life" and ?%d like to
hope that !e !ill in various time periods come together and continue to do proAects.
TP: ?%m sure you !ere a participant in the Dxperimental Band and the ..C- Big Band
sessions of the '(;3%s.
AB: Ges" ? !as. The Dxperimental Band !as consistent !ith the ideals and goals of the
..C-" in that it !as a platform for exploration" a group exploration. ?t !as an
opportunity to compose music and !ork together" and play -r. 1arman%s music" play
-r. .brams% music" !ork on compositions of Roscoe -itchell or 1ohn =tubblefield. . .
Well" it gave us an opportunity to try out things. .nd !e !ere al!ays encouraged to try
out ne! ideas" not be afraid to be different.
?n the ..C- ? !as able to learn from the !ork of my. . .?%ll say brothers. . . ? don%t
mean any kind of %;3s% Aargon. But in fact" !hen ? think of 1oseph 1arman and Roscoe
-itchell and enry Threadgill and 1ohn =tubblefield and .ri Bro!n" the .merican
master Eeo =mith and Eeroy 1enkins -- !e all !orked together. .nd at every point" our
hope !as to have an involvement based on our beliefs" based on the excitement of the
music on its o!n plane. The opportunity to meet and learn from these musicians !as a
blessing. ? thank the Creator for my good fortune to meet these people. ? thank the
cosmos that ?%ve had the opportunity to gro! up !ith guys !ith that kind of vision and
dedication and hard !ork" and ? learned a great deal from them. .s far as ? am
concerned" the -c.rthur could go to any of those musicians" including .mina Claudine
-yers.
We !ere of the group that #ouglas D!art and ? no! refer to as the Believers. .nd that
to me has been one of the life markers. .s !ell as later having the opportunity" for
instance" to !ork !ith *red R@e!ski" Richard Teitelbaum" -aryann .macher. ? have
been very fortunate to have had the opportunities to meet and experience and learn from
the men and !omen of our culture" of our nation and of our planet. ? met -r.
Teitelbaum in something like five feet of mud in Belgium" in .lmavise8C:" at a festival.
? met -r. Teitelbaum at the same time that ? met the .merican master *red R@e!ski"
and the .merican master .lvin Curran. .ll of us !ere in our F3s" excited about music
and the idea of music as a component to change the !orld. We !ere going to change the
!orld !ith our !ork. We !ere idealistic and excited.
?t !as a very beautiful time. Teitelbaum and *rederick !ere moving a!ay from
=tockhausen$ more and more they !ere becoming interested in improvisation and the
trans.frican restructural musics. ? had records of *red R@e!ski playing 4Contrapunter"4
=tockhausen" and 4Klavierstucke '3"4 and ? !as very curious about the restructural
breakthroughs of the post-Webern composers. =o !e kind of met in the middle of this
sector. ? learned a great deal about the post- Webern continuum from -r. Teitelbaum
and -r. R@e!ski and Curran. *rom that point" ? had the good fortune to be asked to Aoin
-usica Dlettronica Hiva" and in doing that" ? had opportunities to meet .merican
masters like -aryann .macher. . . .
What am ? really talking aboutC ?%m talking about the underground. By underground in
this context" ? am only saying that there is a great love that%s al!ays been here in
.merica. ? see it right no!" all over our country" a great love" men and !omen !ho are
not #emocrats or Republicans" they%re not nationalists or feminists" or anti-feminists or
anti-nationalists" but men and !omen !ho are concerned about evolution and culture"
music" !ho are dedicating themselves to their !ork" !hether or not it%s understood. .nd
? align myself !ith that group" from the old school. We love music" !e try to do our
best" !e kick it about.
This area of the music is not talked about very much. and this sector of values has kind
of become obscured. ?n the %(3s !e talk about !hat you can%t do as a !ay to define a
participation. But the group ? come from" !e talk about !hat you can do" and it%s not
defined in a !ay that says you can%t be !ho you are because of some idiomatic concept
based on !hat is correct.
.nd so" ? look at -r. Teitelbaum or -s. .macher or *red R@e!ski or -r. .lvin Curran
as a part of this underground brotherhood-sisterhood that is permeated !ith love and
respect -- and of course" povertyI That%s ho! ? see my !ork. That is the proper context
for my !ork. ?t%s a part of the old underground. We%re still excited about music" or the
playing of music" and !e still have great hope for .merica. ? hope to continue my !ork
based on the spirit of !hat ? have learned through my path. ? feel very fortunate to be
able to talk of those individuals.
?n this time period" !e find ourselves as .mericans dealing !ith the %(3s . /eopolitical
transformations taking place all over. The end of Communism. The start of the ne! era.
*ive years a!ay from the ne! millennium. ? have great hopes that our children !ill be
able to have the kind of involvement that ? have had !ith my !ork" and ? !ould like to
be a part of those forces !hich !ill seek to unite and include opinions and vie!points
from different persuasions. ? find myself at ,3 in the ironic position of actually loving
.merica. ? am very proud to be an .merican. ? feel our country is a young experiment.
We have everyone here" different peoples" peoples fighting against one another -- but
it%s natural. Get" the .merican Dxperiment is uni+ue and it%s universal" and ? take great
pride in being a part of this incredible venture into the next time cycle.
Back to the .ssociation *or the .dvancement of Creative -usicians6 ? feel the ..C-
has been a profoundly important organi@ation. ?n this time period" ? have come to talk of
the ..C- as the =eventh Restructural Cycle of the music" or at least a point of
definition for the seventh restructural cycle changes of the trans-.frican" trans-
composite .merican musics. ?n this time period ? feel there has been profound
misunderstandings about the organi@ation. .nd of course" !ith the complexities from
the last F3 years" there has been a move a!ay from the restructural breakthroughs that
the ..C- opened up. Get" ? feel that the !ork of the ..C- !ill one day be vie!ed a
porthole into the next thousand years.
The ..C- at no point sought to erect any t!o-dimensional construct as the parameters
for !hat is correct or not for any individual. Rather" the ..C- sought to look for the
community" to look at the community of the music" and to look at the dynamic
implications of the music from its o!n terms. The .ssociation *or The .dvancement of
Creative -usicians in the early period !ould create a music school !here !e !ould go
and pick up young children and bring them to the organi@ation for free music lessons"
and take them home after the lessons. .s part of the character of the organi@ation" there
!as al!ays a community component involving our responsibility as creative artists to
!ork in the community and have a composite relationship !ith our !ork. This
vie!point !ould later get obscured along !ith everything else.
But in fact" the ..C- !as never about a form of music. ?t !as a trans- idiomatic
alliance that sought to better understand the challenge of the restructural breakthroughs
of the %;3s" restructural breakthroughs relating to the evolving music of 7rnette
Coleman" the evolving music of 1ohn Coltrane" the evolving music of" !ell" Charlie
-ingus" and also responding to the breakthroughs of the 1a@@ Composers /uild" !hich
!as an organi@ation that had come together maybe five or six years earlier" the
organi@ation that .merican masters like Bill #ixon and Cecil Taylor and 2aul Bley and
=un Ra !orked to put together.
The ..C- !ould be the second opportunity to move to!ards that kind of organi@ation
separate from the complexities" say" of &e! Gork City" !ith the media and political
components taking place here in &e! Gork. ?t !as an opportunity for musicians to talk
about music and share ideas and !ork together and learn and study music. When ? think
about that time period" ? feel extremely grateful to have been a part of it.
TP: -ulti-instrumentalism seems to touch on the very essence of your identity as an
improviser.
AB: *rom the very beginning" ? have only !anted to have the kind of involvement !ith
my !ork based on !hether or not the !ork itself could keep me interested. That is" ?
!as never interested in a concept of postulation that !ould be transmitted separate from
!hether it served my o!n interest or !hether it served my o!n attraction mechanisms.
.s such" from the very beginning" ? found that the natural limitations of any idiomatic
domain !ould at some point maybe not adhere to that !hich ? !as looking for.
.ll ? am saying in that is that ? !as interested in rock %n% roll" so-called -- that%s ho! it
!as referred to in the %,3s any!ay$ ? don%t kno! if the young people say rock %n% roll any
more. ? !ould find myself interested in the *ifth Restructural Cycle musics" the musics
!e no! refer to as bebop" and that the !orld of bebop !ould satisfy my essence on
every level -- until it !as time to go to another @one.
? am only saying that to say that part of the beauty of form and part of the !onder of an
idiom is that it defines a context. -ore and more ? !ould find by '(;; that !e had
come to a point" because of the exploratory and great !ork of restructural exploring
musicians like 7rnette Coleman" like Cecil Taylor" like 2auline 7liveros" like .lbert
.yler" like Karlhein@ =tockhausen" like 1ohn Cage" like -arian Williams" like the
*lorida =tate Jniversity -arching Band" like *rank =inatra" like the 2latters" !here it
might be necessary to redefine the context of terms that supports our relationship !ith a
given methodology.
This for me had become the case" because not only !ould there be the for!ard
vibrational motion and excitement of those musics" but also there !ould be the fact of
the radio and the television" and that information !as coming in from many different
directions in a !ay that !as different from the early period. That is" that the so-called
-odern Dra and the point of technology !e had come to has produced a situation that
found me in the %;3s feeling !e had come to a point !here the concept of relationships
had to be reexamined.
*or myself" !ithout kno!ing it" ? !ould move to construct a model that !ould give me
some insight into !hat later !ould become the genesis unit of my !ork. ?n the middle
%;3s" ho!ever" ? tried to respond to the various challenges of that time period --
understanding" too" that ? came through the period of the '(,3s" the period !here it !as
possible to experience" for instance" the !ork of the -odern 1a@@ Kuartet" and the great
!ork of the .merican master 1ohn Ee!is" !ho no one talks about any more. That group
!ould demonstrate a context of structure and creative balance that !ould give a fresh
understanding of improvisation and composition and architectonic building.
?n the same time there !as the !ork of #ave Brubeck. We like to dump on -. Brubeck.
But if it !ere possible to go back and reexamine his music" one !ould see a universe of
creativity !ith many different kinds of approaches and structures" attempts to
experiment !ith time. -r. Brubeck !ould be an important role model" and his !ork
!ould help me to clarify some understanding of for!ard motion.
This !ould also be the case !ith the .merican master -ax Roach.
?n other !ords" ? am Aust saying" hmm" all of these things !ere in the air" and 4o!
igh The -oon"4 in itself" ? found that this construct of experience and structure !ould
not contain in itself all of the components that ? !ould need to have the kind of
4surprise4 that ? needed to keep me feeling healthy.
=o by '(;;" after the opportunity to experience and start the process of learning about
the =ixth Restructural Cycle musics" including the early musics moving into the
gate!ay of the modern era" especially the !ork of .rnold =choenberg" especially the
!ork of =cott 1oplin" especially the !ork of =criabin and the mystic Duropean spiritual
masters" but no disrespect to the great ?ndian masters. . . ? discovered by '(;; that ?
could be a professional student of music. Which !as lucky for me -- because hanging
!ith Roscoe -itchell and 1oseph 1arman ensured me that ? !ould al!ays be a studentI
Because those guys are al!ays !orking. 2auline 7liveros" she%s al!ays doing
something.
What that meant for me !as the research and development button !ould have to
become a necessary component in my idea of participation and postulation.
=o to ans!er your +uestion" yes" in '(;;" meeting the men and !omen from the
.ssociation *or the .dvancement of Creative -usicians as the third point of definition
shift in my life" after gro!ing up !ith my parents and the .rmy" that !ould be a
profound experience for me. Because of that experience" !hen ? began to think about
my o!n music" ? !ould find myself thinking" 4mm.4 ? needed to have a space !here ?
could have a flash of consciousness. ? needed a space !here ? could have memory"
!here there could be some context to look at identity. .nd finally" ? !ould have a
context !here ? could begin to explore symbolic relationships and synthesis
relationships.
?n that early period ? !ould start the process of looking for !hat !ould be" one" genesis
concepts and fundamentals of my !ork" and !hat could that mean in terms of an
exploratory position as far as ? !anted to have a context of involvement that ? could live
!ith. ? mean" at the heart of all of this" ? !anted to have an involvement that !ould give
me the possibility to stay interested in my !ork. That%s all.
TP: Gou%ve discussed the almost laboratory +uality of musical process in the ..C-
during that early period. 2art of that !as a focus on the presentation of solo
performance" !hich you%ve credited in some intervie!s as leading you to your idea of
structure" of compartmentali@ing your musical expression into different musical realms.
Can you comment on that some!hatC
AB: Ges" sir. ?n '(;B" ? gave a solo concert at the .braham Eincoln Center in Chicago.
?n that time period" ? thought ? could approach solo music simply through
improvisation. .fter the first five minutes of the concert" ? noticed ? !as repeating
myself. .fter the second five minutes" ? found myself thinking" 4Well" Braxton" ? hate to
be the one to say this" but this is horrible4 -- and there must be some !ay to avoid the
complexities of existential freedom. Because in fact" ? !as not interested in freedom or
non- freedom. What ? !anted !as a context !here ? could evolve my !ork and have
some !ay to measure change. .nd after the first ten minutes of the solo concert" as the
pies began to form around my forehead and the eggs" ? found myself thinking either buy
a glass booth or something to stop the obAects before. . .!ell" before. . .or at least
develop a taste for eggs. 7r" go back to the dra!ing board and look for some !ay to
have the kind of definition that could make a difference.
? did not feel" then or no!" that ? possessed infinite creativity. What ? learned !as the
kind of model that !ould give me a !ay to have a good concert even on a bad night"
!hen inspiration !asn%t flo!ing$ that there !ould be fundamental components and
devices that ? could go to !hich !ould help me to have the kind of creative experience
and the kind of definition !here as a musical experience it could still be interesting --
and hopefully meaningful.
By '(;9" of the music of .rnold =choenberg and Karlhein@ =tockhausen and *ats
Waller" ? had developed a real love for solo piano music. ? !as not a good enough
pianist to participate in that area of the music" and ? !anted then to" !ith the alto
saxophone" see if it !as possible to create a state of solo music that !ould have the
same component possibilities as -r. =choenberg%s or -r. =tockhausen%s or -r. Waller%s"
but =tockhausen%s piano music. .s far as ? am concerned" the gate!ay to the future" in
terms of vocabulary and language" really begins there. 7r at least" ? have a great love for
-r. =tockhausen%s piano music. ?t helped me to better understand definition and ho! it
could !ork in the solo medium. ?n fact" the music of Karlhein@ =tockhausen has helped
me on many different levels.
.nd so" the solo musics" !hich start at that point" !ould be an attempt to clarify the
vocabulary" to better understand vocabulary and solo music logics. The language music
materials and models !ould help me to then begin to understand genesis materials.
*rom that point" based on the solo materials" ? !ould find myself !ith a genetic
component that in this time period ? have come to talk of in the !ay that !e talk of
#&." as genetic materials that could be used not only on an individual level" but ? have
tried to" from the solo musics" from the instrumental musics" through improvisation" to
create those kind of logic components that could be fed into the group context" the
group parameter.
?n taking that decision and in making that leap" ? !ould in fact align myself !ith the
Baro+ue masters. ? mean" 1ohann =ebastian Bach !as an improviser" he !as a creative
theorist" and he !as also a composer. This !as also the case for restructural composers
like #uke Dllington or *letcher enderson. This balance is a historical balance that has
been consistent !ith our species.
What ? !anted" then and no!" !as to have a total involvement !ith my !ork. Because ?
discovered very early that ? !as interested in every aspect of music. ? am interested in
music signs. ? am interested in creative theory or not creative theory" and ? am interested
in the beauty of instrumentalism" and a physical involvement. ? feel very fortunate that ?
!ould discover in the discipline of music something that !ould be all-encompassing"
something that !ould give me the possibility to be a student forever. Because there is
al!ays something ne! to learn in music.
TP: The next selection !e%ll hear is Braxton%s first composition" 42iano 2iece L'.4
AB: 2iano 2iece L' ? think !as composed in '(;;. This is the first of the =table Eogic
=tructures" the so-called compositions -- compositions" yes" even a compositionI ?n my
system" from the very beginning" ? !ould seek to build a context of mutable" stable and
synthesis logics. -utable logics !ould be the improvised musics and the improvised
strategies. =table logics !ould be the notated music. ?n the same !ay that !e talk of
improvisation as blood or li+uid fluid strategies" by =table Eogics" ? !ould be referring
to notated strategies" and strategies and targets !hich one could come back to. This"
then" !ould be akin to the skeleton of my system.
5-usic6 42iano 2iece L'"4 ildegarde Kleeb 8'((,:$ 4Comp. 'B)4 Creative 7rchestra$
4Dpistrophy4 8'((0: Braxton 2iano Kuartet Eive at the Knitting *actory>
TP: .lthough our listeners may have thought the alto saxophonist on 4Dpistrophy4 !as
.nthony Braxton" it !as -arty Dhrlich" !hile Braxton played piano. This ne! +uartet
made its first public appearances last spring.
AB: Ges. ?n fact" -arty Dhrlich" 1oe *onda and myself" including -r. .rthur *uller on
percussion" played last summer at Goshi%s" in 7akland" California. -y hope is that this
year some of the music !ill come out. The Knitting *actory musics !ill come out on
Eeo Records" t!o F-C# sets" and the Goshi%s proAect !ill come out on -usic and .rts --
? hope. There is another proAect !ith the .merican master -ario 2avone" a proAect
!here ? had the opportunity to !ork !ith Thomas Chapin and #ave #ouglas on
saxophone and trumpet" respectively" the great master 2heeroan .klaff" and -r. 2avone
and myself. We try to come together every no! and then" and do a proAect. We are
neighbors in Connecticut" and he is an old friend of mine" a musician ? have long
admired.
TP: Gou recorded some duets !ith him in '(().
AB: That%s right. -ario 2avone has been one of the masters !ho have !orked !ith
dedication at his craft. We have kno!n each other for years" -r. 2avone" as !ell as the
.merican master 1oe *onda. ? kind of feel" in some !ays" those guys have been holding
me up. ?t%s been very beautiful. 1oe *onda is also a virtuoso bass-player-composer !ho
has had a career of dedication to the music. -r. *onda and ?" !e come together in many
different contexts as !ell. ? !ould also say -r. *onda" along !ith -elinda &e!man"
!ho is a virtuoso oboe player as !ell as a scholar" !ere the people !ho helped me the
most to put together the Tri-Centric Dnsemble. ? !ant my !ork to be connected !ith
.merican masters of her caliber.
TP: 42iano 2iece L' 4 !as performed by ildegarde Kleeb" !ho is a member of the
Tri-Centric Dnsemble.
AB: ildegarde Kleeb" in this period" is recording the complete piano musics" and ?
could not have been more fortunate. =he is a virtuoso and dedicated musician. -y hope
is that in the coming cycle" ? !ill have the tri-partial solo musics documented in a !ay
!here ? can begin to. . . *or music students !ho are interested in the science of
possibilities" ? can play examples of the -utable Eogic Hocabulary -usics as a context
to talk about -utable Eogic similarities and differences. Because of -iss Kleeb" ? !ill
soon be able to talk of the =table Eogic similarities and differences" and synthesis
strategies that permeate the =table Eogic structures. ?n compositions like 4'')4 ? am
able to have examples of the Ritual and Ceremonial =ynthesis -usics" !hich seek to
combine methodology and process !ith the fire of intention.
TP: The +uartet music !e Aust heard !as a departure from the instrumental
configuration you%ve appeared !ith over the years" !here you have played saxophone.
The +uartet formation seems to be an ideal situation" a laboratory format !ithin you are
able to contain all of your music.
AB: Well" the +uartet musics have changed over the years. ?n the beginning" ?
approached the +uartet musics from a post-Coleman perspective that !ould establish
thematic identities" and from that point improvisational elaboration in an open time-
space continuum. Eater" as ? began to factor compositional procedures" ? !ould move
into more schematici@ed musics that sought to plot strategies !ithin the total schematic
time space. Eater" ? !ould find that the +uartet !ould be the proper forum to begin the
trimetric implementations.
TP: By !hich you meanC Trimetric6 7ne term to elaborate for the audience.
AB: By the term 4trimetric4 in this context" ? am saying that by '(93" ? had arrived at a
point in my system !here every composition !ould have three-by- three components$
three-by-three-by-three components. .nd by that ?%m saying" for example" the bass part
of 4Composition 9)4 can be extracted and itself be played by the orchestra. Dvery
composition is an orchestra piece. Dvery composition is a chamber piece. Dvery
composition is a solo piece. But it%s even more than that. Dvery composition can be
connected to another state. That is" every composition at this point is composed !ith
respect to its origin identity state" !ith respect to its correspondence identity state" and
finally !ith respect to its synthesis identity state.
.nd !hat that means is" suddenly there !ould be the opportunity to put compositions
together. . . ?magine a giant erector set !here every component can be refashioned
based on the dictates of the moment. By adopting this structural context" ? !ould in fact
find myself in a post-Baro+ue structural arena that !ould seek to emphasi@e trimetric" or
three-dimensional components.
What am ? sayingC ? am saying that. . .as !e move into the next thousand years" it !ill
be important to remember that the ne! technologies are already here. We have already"
for all practical purposes" arrived at the future as envisioned" say" in science fiction
imagery of !hat%s going to constitute the future. . . ? remember #ick Tracy having a
television in his !atch. .nd so no! ? go to Radio =hack -- there it isI We are moving to
the post-future components.
The nature of the breakthroughs in technology" in computer science" for example" has
brought us to a point !here !e have virtual reality systems. .nd ? believe in the future"
a given creative experience !ill evolve" every individual having a chance to interact
!ith that experience -- a !alk into the music. Turn on the television set" !alk into the
television set. Walk into the music and have the opportunity and have the opportunity to
kick it about in the same !ay as the musicians.
.nd as !e move into this state" ? have tried to" !ith my model" create a tri- metric
component that !ill better clarify three-dimensional constructs as it !ill relate to
navigation through the sonic reins based on trimetric correspondence. -enu logics.
&avigational components. This" ? feel" !ill be a part of the next thousand years. .nd the
+uartet musics for me is the platform for the trimetric breakthroughs of my system.
What that means is" !here in the past 4Composition FB4 !as only performed one time"
and ? had like 'F tons of music in the basement not being performed" suddenly" the
trimetric breakthroughs of my system !ould give me the possibility to have all of that
material integrated into the +uartet context" !here a given performance of the +uartet
!ould give possibilities !here a 4Composition (; *or 7rchestra and *our =lide
2roAectors4 could be suddenly performed by the +uartet. &ot only that" !e could
perform 4Composition (;4 and connect it to 4Composition '39-..4
.s a result" in this time period" the +uartet has demonstrated the trimetric components of
my system. .nd by that" ?%m only saying stable logic events" stable logic events in the
sense of" say. . . *or instance" -arilyn Crispell might play 4Composition )3"4 !hich is a
notated structure from beginning to end" in the space. .t the same time" /erry
eming!ay and -ark #resser might play 4Composition '39-B"4 !hich is a pulse track"
and ? might take an improvisation based on the language music materials. The net effect
of that participation establishes individual events" local events" and summation events.
This is !hat ? mean by 4trimetric.4 .nd ? mention this in the context of the +uartet at
this time period as a platform for multiple logic strategies. .nd so to ans!er your
+uestion6 Ges" the +uartet musics have become the platform for all of the strategies and
materials of my system" in the sense that" in this time period" !e can take any of the
constructs and use it for our purposes.
Eet me say this" though -- because this could be important. .s Ronald Reagan !ould
say" 4There he goes againI4 ?%m talking about process and science. ? can imagine some
of my enemies saying" 4Geah" ? told you he !asn%t Aa@@I4 52auses" breathes deeply>
Eet me back up. ? talk about the processes of the music because ? am excited about
music science. But in fact" at the heart of my effort is only to have an experience in
music and to kick it about in the old !ay" to have some fun" to hopefully play something
that can mean something to myself" and to have an involvement !ith the family of the
music -- the family in this context being the +uartet. .s far as ? am concerned" there%s no
difference in my !ork from that of someone like /eorge Clinton" or Barbra =treisand. ?
love music" and my intention has al!ays been" or at least my hope has al!ays been" that
people !ill like the music" and that it can be something positive. We can play music. ?t%s
Aust music. That%s all ? !as interested in.
.ll ?%ve tried to do is have an involvement that respects !hat ? have learned about the
tradition. But not simply an academic involvement or a scientific involvement. ? have
tried to approach my music from the very beginning based on the constructs given to me
by *rankie Eymon and Bill aley and the Comets. .nd of course" Eittle Richard" !ho ?
guess !as complex for me in the beginning" but later ? found myself thinking" 4Eittle
Richard is the -an" and there%s nothing that be done about it. Bo! to the great master"
and learn from him.4 .ll ? have !anted to do" since ? couldn%t sing like -arvin /aye"
!ho !as my man. . . ? found myself thinking" 4Well" !hat can you doC Gou don%t have
the voice" so you might as !ell learn an instrument and kick it about.4
That%s !hat ? have tried to do" and that !ould be ho! ? !ould !ant my music to be
perceived. &ot as a scientific laboratory" because ? am not interested in science before
music. .ll ? !anted to do !as to create a context of musics !here !e could do our best"
and at the same time stay aligned to the fundamental components of our discipline. ?t is
not a laboratory. ?t%s more like a 1urassic 2ark.
TP: ?%d like to discuss other aspects of the distinctive terminology that you use in your
discourse on music. 7ne !ord you%ve repeated a number of times in the course of our
conversation today is 4restructuralist.4 What is a restructuralistC o! does a
restructuralist function !ithin a tradition of musicC
AB: By the term 4restructuralist"4 ? am only referring to those points of definition
!here the fundamental components of the given construct are realigned in a !ay to. . .to
allo! for fresh possibilities. .nd this is a normal component in progressionalism.
Charlie 2arker !as a restructuralist" the .merican master -ax Roach !as a
restructuralist in that they. . . -r. Roach !ould bring together a context of formalism
that did not exist before he began his !ork. The same !ith Charlie 2arker. is music
!ould be the summation logic from the *ifth Restructural Cycle components" or *ourth
Restructural Cycle components in Kansas City. .nd Charlie 2arker%s music !ould open
up a ne! context. . .a fresh context of" one" line-forming logics$ t!o" his music !ould
bring !ith it a fresh rhythmic component$ three" his music !ould reemphasi@e
individual postulation in a !ay that !as fresh and different from" say" the s!ing era.
1ohn Cage !ould be an example of a restructuralist composer !ho !ould respond to the
dictates and dynamics of Western art music and rearrange the components of the music
in a !ay that !ould bring about the possibility for fresh experiences.
Karlhein@ =tockhausen and 1ohn Coltrane are restructuralists in the sense that the reality
of their involvement !ould bring forth fresh solutions in a !ay that !ould allo! for
fresh areas of exploration" fresh concepts of vocabulary" fresh concepts of interaction
dynamics" and a fresh integration of material components.
By 4restructuralist4 and by the term 4restructuralism"4 ? am only referring to those
points of progressionalism or of continuity that realigns fundamental components.
Cecil Taylor !ould be a restructuralist. The /reat -an !ould give us another
understanding of material integration. is record Unit Structures" for example" !ould
give us an understanding of extended form and extended time spaces in a !ay that
!ould give fresh areas of exploration for creative musicians or musicians !ho !anted
to be creative. .nd ? !ill al!ays be grateful for his insistence on doing the !ork of the
music based on the plane of the music" based on his o!n individual tendencies and
visions.
.nd so" by the term 4restructuralist4 and by the term 4restructuralism"4 ? am only
referring to natural points of change in a given construct" and that at those points of
change there is a possibility for a ne! continuum of involvement.
*or instance" in the past ', and F3 years" !hen ? think of -iles #avis% +uintet !ith
Wayne =horter and erbie ancock and Tony Williams and Ron Carter" their approach
!ould provide a context for much of the stylistic variations taking place in this time
period. .nd !hen ? think of the !ork of Charlie 2arker" suddenly ? find myself
thinking" 4Wo!" generations of musicians have been able to have an experience based
on the gains !hich came from the !ork of -r. 2arker and -r. Roach" -r. 2o!ell" and
the !ork of the great Thelonious -onk.4 Because of their courage and vision and
insistence on evolving their music in a !ay that !as consistent !ith their o!n value
systems and beliefs" !e !ould have the time period of the %,3s and %;3s and %B3s and
%93s and %(3s !here generations of musicians !ould have the opportunity to participate
in the devices given to us from those individuals.
We must al!ays ackno!ledge the fact that the gift of realignment comes from the
restructural masters and the restructural masters% tradition. .nd so that%s !hat ? mean by
the term 4restructuralist"4 that !ithout the !ork of the great restructural masters" !e
!ould not have the kind of evolution that !e enAoy as part of our normal heritage. ?n
fact" it%s normal only because there has al!ays been a generation of men and !omen
!ho have !orked to give us more options" not less options" and their !ork has
vibrationally planted the paths and possibilities that !e enAoy as a nation" as a culture. ?
am very grateful to have learned" or at least ?%m trying to learn" from the !onderful
restructuralist tradition" the tradition that gives possibilities as opposed to taking a!ay
possibilities.
TP: . second terminological +uestion ? think !ill also touch upon your o!n specific
metaphysics. ?n an intervie! that !as done !ith you on the recent +uartet album"
Victoriaville" you referred to the concept of 4solar system repetitive signature logics.4
AB: ? have tried" and ? am trying in my !ork" to establish an involvement that is
consistent !ith my experiences and the body of information that%s available on the
planet" that can be used in !hatever !ay one !ants to use it" to build a music that !ould
give me the opportunity to have the greatest possible involvement. Because of that" ?
have tried to" !ell" have an involvement !ith structural dynamics" have an involvement
!ith idiomatic dynamics that could increase choices as opposed to take a!ay from
choices.
By 4solar system logics4 in this context" ? am only saying that the reality of a given
model is not separate from !hat parameters it addresses. *or instance" if ? !ould say" 4?
!ant to play that Charlie 2arker" ? !ant to play bebop4 in the !ay that it had been
defined from the masters in that '(03s-,3s restructural cycle" then suddenly ? !ould use
those properties and have an involvement !ith those properties. What ? sa!" as a young
guy gro!ing up in Chicago !ho had the benefit of experiencing and learning from
masters like -ax Roach or arry 2artch. . . ? !anted to create a construct that !ould
give me an opportunity to experience !hat ? have learned from their !ork" as !ell as
the !ork of an .merican master like #inah Washington or Barbra =treisand.
The concept of solar system logics" then" !ould not be separate from the move to!ards
imprint logic constructs that !ould be consistent !ith !hat !e have learned about from
astrology and from the position of the planets" and ho! apparent physicality seems to
!ork" the la!s that underline apparent physicality. ? !anted" as a young man" and ? !ant
no! to build a model and a construct that takes into account the state of information in
this time period" so that ? !ould have maximum exploratory possibilities.
The solar system structures" then" !ould be an attempt to take into account that !hich
has been given to us in terms of information about relationships in the planets" and the
concept and phenomenon of cycles and repetitive logics as a !ay to encode identities
!hich !ill be consistent !ith a particular space" identities !hich !ill be stated and at
some point come back as a !ay to delight in the formal components of a given sound
space. ?n the same !ay that" if !e played 4. &ight ?n Tunisia"4 a composition !hich
establishes an identity space" and then after that !e%ll play something like 4-isty4. . .
The beauty of bebop for me is. . . Well" one" it%s so diverse. ? mean" you can play a so-
called Eatin composition. Gou can play a so-called ballad. Gou can play !ithin a
particular harmonic strata or a set of chord progressions.
But in the post-.yler sector of the music" !hich !as the sector !hich moved into the
trans-harmonic implications that had been raised" as opposed to atonality. . . ? !as never
interested in atonality. ? !as interested in incorporating and building up on that !hich
already existed. ?n the trans- harmonic" in the trans-structural components opened up by
.lbert .yler and by the ..C-" suddenly there !ould be the possibility to build
structural models that !ould even take into account the solar system components of
!hat !e kno! about as far as the relationship of the planets" as far as the !onder of the
galaxy" and ho! to factor that information into a broad" formal context that !ould give
us" as instrumentalists" more possibilities for exploratory experiences.
.nd so the solar system pulse track structures" as exemplified" say" by 4Composition
',94 or 4',(4 !ould be a !ay of taking that aspect of formalism" cyclic logics as
exemplified in the state of solar system relationships" and include that in the music. This
!ould" in my system" be another aspect of pulse track strategies and formal states. .nd
in doing so" solar system strategies in the context of the music !ould give me the
possibilities to have identities !hich are evolving at short time-space distances" medium
time-space distances" and extended or very long time-space distances.
TP: ?n intervie!s you%ve mentioned that the respective orbits of -ercury" -ars and
Jranus !ould all have different velocities !ithin a fixed system.
AB: Ges.
TP: .nd that could translate into !hat the musicians !ho are performing !ith you
!ould have as defined strategies for their improvising and performing !ithin a
particular space.
AB: Ges. The understanding being that the reality of structure establishes a context of
relationships and identities" in the same !ay that the chord changes of 4o! igh The
-oon4 establishes a state of harmonic recognition that is different from" say" playing the
composition 4alf &elson.4 .nd of course" !e delight in playing both compositions.
We delight in it because each composition gives a state of possibilities. ?n my system"
!hich is a trans-idiomatic system" ? sought to have the same components" as opposed to
the concept of" 47h" okay" !e%re gonna play$ it%s free" manI GayI4 ? !asn%t interested in
that. ? !as more interested in establishing contexts of recognition" contexts of
relationships that !ould help to reflect the improvisational decisions and cast those
decisions in a state of recognition based on structural components that could be
depended upon" in the same !ay that 4o! igh The -oon4 has a state of chord
changes that helps to define the nature of the postulations taking place in it.
TP: Why do you use the term 4post-.yler music4 to refer to the period you identify
!ithC Why is .lbert .yler the signpost at !hich music changesC .nd ho! did he
restructurali@e the music to bring about this !hole other field of possibilities for the last
several generations of musiciansC
AB: ? say 4post-.yler4 because it%s convenient" in the same !ay that the term 4post-
Webern4 is used. .nd yet" at the same time" ? recogni@e it%s complex. *or instance" !e
talk about post-Webern or the !ork of .rnold =choenberg" and someho!" in a !ay" it
obscures the great !ork of composers like =criabin" !ho ? feel is profoundly important"
or the !ork of arry 2artch" or Ruth Cra!ford =eeger. .s far as ?%m concerned" their
!ork !ould help to bring about the dynamic implications of the transidiomatic musics.
2ost-.ylerC Well" .lbert .yler%s !ork !ould be a very clear !ay of talking of a move
not only of the trans-idiomatic musics" but .lbert .yler%s music !ould come to
personify the emergence of sound mass logics as a context for elaboration. .lbert
.yler%s music !ould go back to the source-initiated components of the trans-.frican
and composite .merican musics in that it gave us an opportunity to experience the fresh
fundamentals of the music. ?t gave us an opportunity to look at the tenor saxophone in a
fresh !ay" separate from dialectical components involving pitch" involving the state of
bebop by '(;F or %;). .lbert .yler bypassed the functional components of extended
bebop" and in its place opened up sound mass logics" in its place opened up the folk
components of the music in terms of the use of marches" the beauty of collective
improvisation and the family of the music. .lbert .yler%s music !ould come to
personify the reemergence of individual creativity and dynamics" and ho! the
individual in the post-nuclear age could begin to move for!ard and redefine the
components of the music.
Get -r. .yler%s !ork !as not separate from !hat he learned from the great .merican
master =un Ra" or the !ork of Cecil Taylor and 7rnette Coleman" or the !ork of #on
Dllis. &obody talks about #on DllisI But #on Dllis !as badII
=o yes" 4post-.yler4 is a convenient !ay of talking about the emergence of the trans-
harmonic musics" the entry into sound mass evolution as a logical- unlogical response to
the complexities that opened up after Beethoven.
TP: Gou are notorious for the avidity of your interest in chess" and your interest in
mathematics is evident to anyone !ho has follo!ed your !ork. Can you discuss the
relationship bet!een music" chess and mathematicsC
AB: The beauty of chess for me is that it gives a !onderful opportunity to look at
structure and relationships" and intentions" and target strategies" and the relationship
bet!een target strategies and variables and obAectives" and fulfilling obAectives. The
beauty of chess also extends into physics and pressures and. . . ? don%t kno!. .s far as
?%m concerned" chess demonstrates everything. ? mean" there%s something very beautiful
about the dynamics of chess. ? had to back a!ay from it" though. =uddenly" ? found
myself a gro!n man !ith three children" my !ife and myself" and here ? !as playing
chess" doing my music" and ? found myself thinking. . . ? had to get a!ay from chess"
because. . .? don%t kno!. . . -aybe ? loved it too much.
TP: ?%d like to reframe the earlier +uestion about multi-instrumentalism. Eately you%ve
added piano to the arsenal of instruments on !hich you publicly perform. #o different
selves emerge !hen playing piano as opposed to saxophoneC #o different instruments
bring out different aspects of your thoughtC
AB: .s ?%ve said" ? !anted to have an involvement !here all of me could be involved.
=o to ans!er your +uestion6 GesI
But to really ans!er your +uestion" ? !ould have to go back to the sign of the triangle"
!hich is the synthesis Third 2artial emanations in my system. ?n this context" ? !ould
talk of the t!elve constructs of my system based through its Third 2lane ?dentities. By
that ? am only saying that if" in '(;;" ? talked of !hen referring to the solo music
processes" 'F components involving geosonic metric constructs 8? can%t even say
4metric4. Boy" ? need another beerI:" ? !as referring to" in that period" number one" long
sounds$ number t!o" accident long sounds$ number three" trios$ number four" staccato
line formulas$ number five" intervallic formulas$ number six" multiphonics$ number
seven" short attacks$ number eight" angular attacks$ number nine" legato formings$
number ten" diatonic formings$ number ''" gradient formings$ number 'F" self-identity
formings.
?f" in the beginning" ? !ould find geosonic constructs to provide the genesis material
that could help clarify definition for me as an improviser" to have an involvement !here
? could measure similarities" differences and duplications" ? !anted to have that
possibility" because ? !as not interested in repeating myself unless it !as part of a
decision or strategy. *rom that point" ? !ould seek to extend the 'F constructs in its
extended sense as it related to that !hich !as greater than me -- in this context" 4greater
than me4 !ould be that !hich involves the group.
.s far as extended placements of those constructs" suddenly the long sound became the
sustained space -- static. &umber t!o became the se+uential space -- active. &umber
three became trill strategies for the group. &umber four became staccato line formings"
or very fast se+uential logic bases for the group. .ll the !ay do!n to 'F.
&o!" to ans!er your +uestion" and your +uestion is6 .re there many different selves
that can be expressed !ith different instrumentsC ? !ould go back to '(;;. 2art of the
challenge of that period !ould be to respond to the forethrust of the restructural musics
as it !as offered to us. ?n that period" for instance" the spectra of the individual as it
relates to instrumental decisions and dynamics in that period had already been set into
place by master musicians like Rahsaan Roland Kirk" !ho demonstrated the possibility
of playing three instruments at one time -- not to mention on one instrument he !as a
total virtuoso. There !ould also be the great !ork of the .merican master Dddie arris.
We%ve forgotten about -r. arris" but. . .
TP: =axophone and piano.
AB: .nd trumpetI .nd he%s al!ays inventing instruments. When learning from him in
the %;3s" ? recall him talking of the importance of looking for different !ays of
expressing yourself" and not aligning yourself on one instrument in a !ay that !ould
narro! your possibilities.
=o by '(;;" after ? got out of the .rmy" ? had experienced the !ork of Dric #olphy"
!ho !ould advance and extend the technical domain of multi- instrumentalism" the
conceptual domain of multi-instrumentalism. e !ould hand to the ..C- a concept of
multi-instrumentalism that !ould allo! for the possibility to express oneself on the
flute" clarinet and the bass clarinet" and postulations in the lo!er register !here there are
different kinds of logics needed to have an 4effective<uneffective4 postulation"
depending upon !hat the person !ants. *or myself" ? discovered that some of the music
? !as hearing on the flute didn%t translate on the baritone saxophone" but that it !asn%t
because the baritone saxophone had in itself some kind of limitation. Rather" the
baritone saxophone has its o!n set of properties.
=o it !as because of the !onder of multi-instrumental dynamics that the ..C- !as
able to inherit that. The !ork of 1oseph 1arman and Roscoe -itchell and the .rt
Dnsemble of Chicago extended the concept of multi-instrumentalism to include !hat
Roscoe and 1oseph referred to in that time period as 4little instruments.4 .t that point"
Eeo =mith and ?" !e !ent out" !e got garbage cans" bricks" rocks. . . We couldn%t let
those guys out-do usI .nything !e could findI We !ere trying to keep up !ith those
guys. ?t !as part of the beauty of that period. We !ere all bouncing off of one another"
learning from one another. Roscoe !ould build his o!n instruments. The !ork of the
.merican master 1ohn Cage !ould help us to have a broader understanding of
instrumental dynamics and possibilities. .nd ? !anted to have that gain included in my
music as !ell" that being a broader understanding of sonic materials. =o because of that"
? have tried !henever possible to think in terms of fresh instrumentations" fresh
combinations of instruments.
? mention that to say that by the =eventh Restructural Cycle of -usics" the concept of
multi-instrumentalism had even extended into different domains. .nd ? feel that one of
the !onderful possibilities" or some of the !onderful possibilities !hich have opened
up in the last ten or ', years has been the !onder of instrumental dynamics and fresh
timbre spaces. Too often" !e%ve found ourselves dealing !ith conventional
instrumentations in a !ay that kind of limits the possibilities. ? mean" !e think of Aa@@"
!e think of piano" bass and drums" and saxophone and trumpet" or !e think of classical
music and !e think of string sections" brass" etc. But in fact" my interest in timbre
dynamics transcends the conventional categories.
What ? !ould like in the future more and more !ould be ensembles !hich have
accordions" steel drums" garbage cans" bricks" not to mention defined instrumental
components and undefined components" that being" you%re playing the music and
suddenly the /ood umor ?ce Cream truck passes and becomes a part of the piece. .nd
so the beauty of timbre expansion has" for me" involved looking for fresh
instrumentations" a fresh combination of instruments" inclusion of instruments not
normally associated !ith the music -- mandolins" accordions" !histles.
&o!" back to your +uestion6 Can you reflect different aspects of yourself inside your
creativityC ? !ould say yes. .nd in my system" in the Tri- Centric musics" ? have at this
point been able to establish 'F points of identity !hich include 'F mythologies" or !ays
of being. ? have taken that approach" because ? felt then" as no!" that it might be
possible to continue to extend upon those sub-spiritual tendencies inside of us 8!hich
are not inside of us" !hich are inside of us:" and to express that as part of the atomic
unit" nuclear unit of my system" and also as part of an attempt to establish the poetic
logics.
=o in my system" rather than talk of" 4&umber 7ne" long sounds"4 ? can no! talk =hala.
Rather than talk of 4&umber T!o" accented long sounds"4 ? talk of .shmenton" and
number three" elena" Makko" &t@ockie" 1oreo" =undance" Bubba 1ohn-1ack" 7Au!ain"
#avid" .lva and Kim -- representing the 'F primary characters of my system in its ritual
and ceremonial state.
N*rom that point" in terms of proAective fantasy structures" !hen ? talk of my system in
its City-&ation form state scheme" ? can no! talk of a continent that has 'F different
states" and inside each state there is a !ay of being and a system of connections. .s
such" by establishing and proAecting that information into its extended tri-centric
contexts" ? can no! begin the process of mapping and building structures to correspond
!ith narrative structures. ? have taken that route because even though ? am in love !ith
the science of the music" in every !ay" ? have found that in the next time cycle" the kind
of evolution that ? !anted could not be expressed based on a t!o- dimensional
relationship to anything" and that the meta-reality and myth secrets of my system could
only be talked about based on some poetic attempt to establish narrative constructs" so
that ? could have the possibility then to talk of events in the Bubba 1ohn 1ack sound
space" based on the secrets of -r. 1ohn 1ack" and based on the fantasy myth story of
Bubba 1ohn 1ack.
? can take this approach" and Aump past" or behind 8depending upon ho! you look at it$
either !ay ?%ll take it: present-day complexities involving intellectual snarls concerning6
Which came first" the chicken or the eggC 7r6 Who killed !hoC #id you kill me first" or
did ? kill you firstC 7r6 o! did you get to be so much of a liberal that you became a
RepublicanC -any of these +uestions" +uestions !hich underlie assumptions in this
time period that ? respect and love and bo! to" have very little to do !ith ho! ? have
defined my !ork. Rather than figure out !ho killed Cock Robin in 'BFF" my system is
directed to the next thousand years" and ho! !e as a species can set constructs into
place that can give us an opportunity to make fresh mistakes as opposed to old mistakes.
5-usic6 4Comp. 'B)4 8exc.:$ 4Comp. 'F34 8'(9,:$ 4Comp. 'B04 8'((0:>
AB: The three compositions !e Aust heard" the last three compositions that !e played"
4Composition 'B)"4 4Composition 'B04 and 4Composition 'F3"4 !ould be an example
of the ne! narrative logic musics. ?n the case of 4Composition 'B)"4 this !ould be an
example of the Tri--utable Eogic =trategies" Tri- -utable Eogic =trategies in the sense
that 4'B)4 is composed !ith the use of combined and created !ords" and inside of that
there are synchronous hook-ups !ith an improviser. The nature of the hookup has no
bearings on =table Eogic pitch information as much as contour. The improviser traces
the contour of the actor.
TP: To !hat degree are the actors improvising !ithin thatC
AB: The text is !ritten. The actors are reading but improvising. ? never really told the
actors exactly !hat the play !as about. ?n the future" ? might have that as part of the
esthetics of the play. But in fact" !ithin 4Composition 'B)"4 the play" there are three
stories all happening at the same time. ?t Aust depends on !hatever the friendly
experiencer feels comfortable !ith.
The first story is a group of people" four people" have Aust completed a bank robbery"
and they are about to expand out into the country to get a!ay from the police" and they
are plotting !ays to get out. That is the apparent story.
The secondary story is about mapping" mapping in the Tri--utable space" and mapping
in terms of having conAunction logics that !ould give the *riendly Dxperiencer-
?mproviser an opportunity to have a postulation inside of a narrative context that
establishes the use of magic !ords 8yes" ?%ll say that$ magic !ords:" the use of
interlocking strategies" and the use of spatial strategies. This composition" 4L'B)"4 then
!ould be an example of the circle.
4Composition 'B0"4 !hich !as the last piece !e heard" is scored for ten percussionists.
. given performance of 4'B04 in its origin state !ould involve three screens of slide
proAectors. ?t is the story of a group of mountaineers" as far as the apparent story. ?n fact"
the secondary structural story is really about mapping gradient logics" the idea of a
mountain in this context and the story of mountain climbing in this context represents a
point to establish gradient logics. ? think 4Composition L'B04 is in the ''th ouse" or
Eand &umber ''" the .lvalands.
The second composition !as 4Composition 'F3"4 !hich is 4Trillium ..4 This !as the
first of the Trillium Complex 7peras. When completed" Trillium !ill contain );
autonomous acts that can go together in any order to establish an opera complex that
!ill proAect the conceptual constructs of the Tri-.xium Writings" !hich is my
philosophical system" into the ritual and ceremonial space. 4Composition 'F3"4 then" is
a dialogue form that seeks to portray the philosophical arguments in Tri-.xium
!ritings.
The three compositions" then" 4Composition 'B)"4 4'B04 and 4Composition 'F3"4 !ould
be three examples of the ne! narrative logic structures. This is one of the areas of my
!ork that ? am very excited about. But so !hatCI 5Eoud laugh>
TP: ?%d like you to discuss the nature of your interaction !ith serious improvisers" the
impact of the individual personality of the people !ho perform your pieces on the shape
the pieces take" the !ay the pieces mutate over time" the !ay your ideas about musical
structures mutate over time.
AB: /ood +uestion. Thank you. Before responding to your +uestion" ? !ould like to
thank the .merican master" =teve Ben-?srael for the !ork that he has heen doing" for
helping me !ith 4Composition 'B).4 -r. Ben-?srael has" from the very beginning" been
a part of the Eiving Theater" !hich !as one of the restructural movements in the %;3s"
restructural theater groups in the %;3s. The !ork that they did !ould open up
possibilities in narrative logics" in dynamic imagery" and give a fresh perspective of the
possibilities for creative theater for the ne! millennia. ? !ould Aust to recogni@e that" by
coming and helping me !ith 4Composition 'B)"4 in fact" he helped me on every level. ?t
!as a great honor to have an opportunity to !ork !ith a master.
?%d also like to talk about -iss .isha Beck" and the fact that -iss Beck" !ho is a great
master herself" comes from a lineage of masters" 1ulian Beck and -rs. Beck" 1udith
-olina. The !ork that they did ? feel !ill be part of the next time cycle. We !ill have
to" as a culture" go back and re-examine some of the area that !e might not have been as
excited about as !e should have.
By the !ay" ? only heard during this program that the .merican master &ovelist .rthur
Taylor has passed. 7f course" he !as a master drummer" but ? say 4novelist4 because the
implications of his !ork extend into the tri-partial space. ? had the good fortune to meet
-r. Taylor and have many experiences !ith him in 2aris" and ? have long felt that on
many levels his !ork !as not al!ays appreciated and understood in the !ake of the
restructural !ork of -ax Roach or the .merican restructural master Roy aynes" and
even the !ork of 2hilly 1oe 1ones in some !ays !ould obscure the general particulars
of -r. Taylor%s !ork. But ? mean" he%s one of our great stylistic masters. .nd his
!ritings have a uni+ueness and have a realness that come through actual experience as
opposed to speculation. =o ? !as and ? am very surprised to hear of his passing. ? hope
his family is okay" and !ant to extend my feeling to his family and respect to the great
man.
=o ? !anted to say that. &o!" your +uestion. What !as your +uestionC 5Eaughs>
TP: ?mprovisers interpreting your music" and the interactive effect" back and forth"
bet!een you and the improvisers and the improvisers on you" more or less. =haping
pieces over time.
AB: =haping pieces over time. *or me" !henever ? !ant to play music Aust by myself" ?
have the solo experience. ? love the solo experience. ? can do anything ? !ant in the solo
experience" including totally fail and have a pie thro!n at me.
TP: opefully it%s !ell baked.
AB: Well" hopefully. 7r at least the kind of fruit pie strategies that !on%t hurt so much.
But after the solo experience" as soon as the concept of duo comes into play" my
position has al!ays been" ? am interested in playing !ith the person ? am playing !ith"
and the concept of structure for the duo context ? have tried to think in terms of logics
and strategies that !ill give a possibility to have a fresh experience. ?n my system" a
+uorum starts at the number three" and at the number three" it%s an orchestra piece.
?n other !ords" there are really only three fundamental contexts in my system6 The solo
experience" the chamber experience 8that being the individual !ith someone else:" and
the trio experience -- and the trio experience" for all practical purposes" is the orchestra"
in my system.
But maybe ? should back up a bit. ?n my system" every piece is an orchestra piece" every
piece is a chamber piece" every piece is a solo piece. But that%s Aust on one plane. 7n the
second plane" the bass part of 4Composition 9)4 can itself be extracted and played by
four hundred flutes !ith tambourines. 7r it can be taken and played back!ards" and
hooked to something else. *inally" every composition of mine can be placed in a
summation logic context" !here it !ill aid the predominant voices of !hatever identity
it is aligned !ith. This is a context of structural connections that can be vie!ed in the
same !ay that !e talk of an erector set" that can be put together in different !ays
depending upon the needs of the moment.
&o!" for your +uestion" !hat does it mean to play music !ith someone and !hat does
that mean over timeC Well" for me" it means proof that the Creator has blessed me and
given me incredible experiences. That ? am still a virtuoso complainer is only because ?
have my sense of humor. But in fact" the opportunity to have a musical involvement is
totally miraculous" and ? try. . .
Whenever ? play music !ith myself or !ith someone else" ? try to do my best" and
inherent in that" !hen ? think of !hat is so-called 4the best4 in my understanding" it is6
-ake my mistakes" do the best ? can do" have some fun" kick it about" and try to have a
relationship !ith postulation that is as honest as it can be" and !hen it can%t be honest" at
least be creative" and construct an 7ther !hen need be.
.nd ? try to approach the music !ith the kind of positive energy that my forefathers and
foremothers taught me !as important. When 1ohn Coltrane and -artin Euther King" 1r."
talked of the seriousness and beauty of community and of trying to do your best" A Love
Supreme. . . -r. Coltrane !as not talking about sex" although of course ? love sex --
hurray for sex and hurray for bodies. But -r. Coltrane !as talking about love for the
Creator" love for something more than Aust a brick.
=o to ans!er your +uestion" ? try to" in my sonic experiences" approach it !ith the best
attitude that ? can bring to my !ork. -y !ork represents the best part of me. Eord
kno!s" there are other parts. But my music represents my hopes" that !hich ? hope to
be. .nd part of that is in playing !ith a person or having a musical experience" ? try to
do the best that ? can do" and respect myself and the person that ?%m playing !ith" and
have the experience as honest<blank as possible" !ith the hope that the experience can
someho! mirror something that reflects the real values that have allo!ed me to
continue my !ork" and have helped me to navigate a life through this period in time and
to keep a relationship !ith my !ork.
Books by .nthony Braxton

The Tri-Axium Writings" three volumes available from *rog 2eak -usic" anover
&.
Composition Notes A-E" five volumes available from *rog 2eak -usic" anover &.


Books about .nthony Braxton

The Music of Anthony Braxton 8-ike effley" CT<&G6 /reen!ood<Dxcelsior" '((;:
New Musical Figurations: Anthony Braxton's Cultural Critique 8Ronald Radano"
Chicago<Eondon6 Jniversity of Chicago 2ress" '(():

Forces in Motion: Anthony Braxton and the Meta-Reality of Creative Music
8/raham Eock" Eondon6 Kuartet Books" '(9,:$ and Forces in Motion: The Music and
Thoughts of Anthony Braxton 8/raham Eock" &e! Gork6 #a Capo Books" '(99:
Anthony Braxton: Sein Leben, Sein Musik, Sein Schallplatten 82eter &iklas Wilson"
/ermany6 7reos Collection 1a@@" '(():


.lso see 1ohn /ray%s book Fire Music: A Biliography of the !e" #a$$% &'(')&''* for a complete listing
of .merican and Duropean articles" revie!s and intervie!s up to '((3 8&e! Gork<Westport CT<Eondon6
/reen!ood 2ress" '((':$ and current Reader%s /uide databases under .nthony Braxton%s name for
coverage since.
Anthony Braxton
Composer" performer" theorist" !riter
.nthony Braxton%s landmark !ritings are only available from *rog 2eak -usic. These
are special" made-on-demand editions prepared by the composer.
Writings
Triaxium Writings Vol. 1. Bra3'. O;3.
Triaxium Writings Vol. 2. Bra3F. O;3.
Triaxium Writings Vol. 3. Bra3). O;3.
Triaxium Writings, Complete Set. Bra04. $165.
Composition Notes Vol. A. Bra3,. O;3. Covers compositions '-'(
Composition Notes Vol. B. Bra3;. O;3. Covers compositions F3-))
Composition Notes Vol. C. Bra3B. O;,. Covers compositions )0a-B'
Composition Notes Vol. D. Bra39. O;,. Covers compositions BFa-(0
Composition Notes Vol. E. Bra3(. O;,. Covers compositions (,-''(
Composition Notes. Complete Set. Bra10. $280.
Catalog of Works. Bra''. O',.
Anthony Braxton:
The Third Millennial Interview
with Mike Heffley
Copyright 2001
.nyone !ho%s kno!n .nthony Braxton for a!hile has heard these !ords
often6 "Get ready for the third millennium, people!"
?%ve kno!n and !orked !ith him closely" off and on" since '(9B" first as a
musician" then as his graduate teaching assistant at Wesleyan Jniversity from
'(()-(;. ? !rote a book about his music" and helped him fund and stage the
first full production of the flo!er of his most recent and mature !ork as a
composer" his opera Trillium +: Shala Fears for the ,oor in &e! Gork in
'((;. -ost to the point here" ?%ve had numerous conversations !ith him about
our mutual fascinations !ith ancient prophetic !ritings" both biblical and
more occult" that have come over time to lend the charge of myth and mystery
to mundane markers like millennia. We didn%t kno! exactly !hat sea change
or revelation the ne! one !ould bring" but !e kne! !e liked the
numerological dimensions of the number 4three4 and the mythico-theological
ones of the unit 4thousand.4 The rest !ould be details.
Without planning it" !e ran into each other last #ecember" Aust before the real
millennial shift--and before the .rmaggedon-like attack of =eptember ''--and
sparked to the idea of an update intervie!6 a comprehensive retrospective of
the past" pulse-taking of the present" pipe-dreaming of the future. What
unfolded !as a series of five !eekly sessions over that holiday season" each
one as long as it took to fill t!o B0-minute minidisks" eat t!o Red Eobster
lunches" and do!n one carafe of !hite !ine. /reat funI We Aust kept meeting
until !e felt !e had covered it.
Those !ho haven%t gro!n up !ith Braxton%s public persona and !ork" as ?
have" should kno! this6 he !as and remains one of the pioneers and giants of
the musical terrain this maga@ine covers. ?t !ould surprise me if the lion%s
share of the artists" young and old" !orking in the 4improvised P
experimental music4 enounced in the front-page masthead didn%t kno! and
ackno!ledge Braxton%s groundbreaking !ork from the late '(;3s on as
crucial to the beginnings and developments of their 4medium of expression.4
Eet us recount the !ays...
Braxton%s '(;9 double E2 For Alto opened the door onto the single-line
instrument as a valid vehicle for solo performances among improvisers$ a little
later he did the same thing for saxophone +uartet" breaking ground for the
World =axophone Kuartet and numerous others since. .s one of the most
popular and successful of the post-%;3s 8post-Coltrane<.yler<Coleman<Ra:
musicians" Braxton !as also the most visible example of multiinstrumentalism
as part of the soundscape" expanding the improviser%s voice and the music%s
timbral pallette. Braxton" as those of us !ho have played !ith him kno!
viscerally" has fused the realms of the 4free4 improvisation and the through-
composed piece so systematically and consistently" !ith such increasing
sophistication over the years" that the treasures of each--from the heaviest
golden cro!n to the least little bead" previously locked a!ay from each other
not only in traditional practice but for !ant of effective notational devices and
aesthetic parameters--gradually merged" modestly at first" then !ith a great
bursting of the !alls of the chests containing them" resulting in a double
fortune in one gleaming pile" for all the !orld to sort and run through its
fingers !ith the treasure-hunter%s shout of Aoy. 7ne of the richest of those
treasures !as musical time. Braxton opened up that field" building on .frican
.merica%s pulse-rooted stretches beyond meter" and on Duropean .merica%s
and Durope%s experimental and avant-garde concert music" to devise !ays
more specific to the improviser striking out further from both traditions for
ne!er" more" and more personal gestures.
-ore than any single musical innovation" ho!ever" Braxton%s doggedly uphill
and ongoing +uest to challenge and change the assumptions underlying the
musical-cultural terrain of his times" through his prolific recordings and
intervie!s" is !hat sets him apart most valuably from most others. e came of
age in the days 8still going strong in po!erful ne! and high-end +uarters:
!hen Aa@@ !as Aa@@" rock !as rock" art music !as art music" and !oe to those
!ho messed around !ith their !ell-policed borders$ !hen black !as black
and !hite !as !hite" and the border patrols policing them !ere even more
vigilant" yea" vicious$ !hen all these little +uadrants had their place in a
hierarchy that dictated socioeconomic and personal value--and forget about
borders bet!een high and lo! there" think rather in terms of #-M @ones.
Braxton has braved and defied all this" often and largely !ithout peer in the
role" taking heat and flack fe! !ere able or !illing to deal !ith. is payoff
for doing so" far more than fame or fortune or honor due" has been to have
produced a body of !ritten and recorded music that is to 4Aa@@"4 4Western art
music"4 and 4.frican-.merican composer%s tradition4 !hat Dinstein !as to
physics" 2icasso to ?mpressionism" #ylan to folk music. We !ho enAoy a
scene !ith said borders and @ones dissolving like a bad dream do o!e him the
honor of remembrance" respect" attention" understanding and support.
7ne aspect of the musical system he%s been constructing since the '(;3s is the
terminology he uses to describe and explain it. Thus" to use the examples in
the follo!ing" 4house of the rectangle4 refers most generally to the fixed
aspects of nature--product rather than process" position rather than traAectory$
4house of the circle4 is the polar opposite of that" spontaneous improvisation"
that !hich streams$ and 4house of the triangle4 is synthesis" of those first t!o
houses and in general. The 4house of one4 refers to the first of t!elve musical
components" or 4sonic languages4 on his chart" the long tone$ it also has an
anthropomorphi@ing personal name" =hala. 4?dentity4 refers to !hat an
improvised musical gesture ends in being as a finished product standing in
time%s moment" after its flo!. 4Tri-centric4 has to do !ith Braxton%s sense of
the universe as rather a 4tri-verse"4 a term of -uhal Richard .brams%"
stressing trinity rather than unity. is chart of his system !ill clarify other
terms. Click here to go to his !ebsite.
[I ask him about concept of exile, since he's always been on the margins
struggling as an outcat, in a way; he pointed out that this exile, the last
four years, was like a total isolation...]
.B ?t has been an incredible time period for me Aust because of the depth of
the change. The concept of 4exile4 has been a real experience for me" it hasn%t
been Aust a theoretical concept. =ince around the performance of Trillium +"
my !orld !ould turn upside do!n$ and no! ?%m poised to go into the third
millennium in a completely unplanned !ay. ? have no idea of !hat ?%ll be
looking at in the future" and ?%m fortunate--? don%t mean to be painting a
picture of sadness$ ?%ve had a life !ith many bright moments. To have the kind
of complexities ?%m having to deal !ith in this period in some !ays makes a
lot of sense" or at least in some !ays ?%m very fortunate. When ? think about
!hat%s happening in the music !orld" and looking at my life" ?%ve come to see
that it%s really correct" for instance" that the Aa@@ people see me as not being a
Aa@@ musician" and it%s really correct that the classical people see me as not
being a classical composer" that my life" in fact" has been in bet!een the
.frican-.merican and Duropean-.merican communities" in bet!een the
concepts of conservative and liberal. It's going to be interesting to see the
alignment of components in the third millennium; from my perspective, I
feel like what looks like the minstrel period is coming back. #id you see
the !- Times" !ith the .l 1olson articleC
- Geah" ? did. #id you see =pike Eee%s ne! movie" Bamoo$ledC
.B ?%m going to see this movie$ one of my students sa! it in &e! Gork. ?
have a feeling this movie is relevant. ?%m no fan of =pike Eee%s" but the fact
that he !ould have a proAect dabbling in minstrelsy" on !hatever level" is Aust
further proof that the components of the third millennium !ill be very
different from !hat !e came up !ith in the %;3s. *or instance" much of the
hip-hop music that !e%re experiencing right no! has a minstrel component.
-ore and more" it%s the tough guy celebrating vulgarity--!hich isn%t to say this
is the only component of hip-hop. ? have a feeling hip-hop" like every other
form of music" has many different levels" but the one that gets through is the
level that the marketplace co-signs. =o !e%re seeing the same thing that has
happened to the Aa@@ !orld. .t this point in time for me" it%s almost irrelevant
!hat%s happening in the Aa@@ !orld.
- Because it seems taken over by corporate commercialism and so onC
.B Ges$ everything%s become generic in a !ay that the people !ho are
allo!ed to be successful are those !hose experience and perceptual
parameters exist !ithin the frame!ork of !hat the Aa@@ business complex has
deemed acceptable.
- Eet me go back to this concept of exile. *or those of us !ho kno! your
!ork and history and everything" you%ve al!ays been sort of on the margins in
certain !ays. Gou took a lot of flack in the early years for your music" and
you%ve kind of done your o!n thing all along" regardless of the trends of the
times. =o have you never felt the exile before in +uite this !ay" or is this a
!hole ne! level of exileC
.B By exile in this context" ?%m referring to a fresh context of isolation" !here
say for the past four years ?%ve basically separated myself from everyone. ?n
the end" it !as the only thing ? could do any!ay. .nother component of it is
my special relationship !ith the ?R=" as ? seek to undo the financial
complexities of the opera.
- o! !ould you explain that !hole -ac.rthur *oundation experience in
terms of ho! it turned out to be more of a liability than an assetC
.B ? !ould not characteri@e the -ac.rthur *ello!ship as a liability in any
!ay$ in fact" it !as Aust the opposite. ?t !as a gift from the heavens. Because
of it" ? !as able to reali@e an opera proAect" and for a guy like myself" opera
proAects have not been an option. Because of my good fortune in this area" and
their decision to give me the fello!ship" ? !as able to reali@e a performance"
and for that alone" everything that ?%m going through" as far as ?%m concerned"
?%m lucky to be able to go through this period of exile. That%s ho! much a
performance of Trillum + meant to me$ that !as ho! badly ? needed to get
that done. =o ? !ill eternally be grateful to the -ac.rthur *oundation for that
opportunity.
- Was that the first actual full opera production for youC
.B ? had a performance of Trillium A that the Jniversity of California at =an
1ose produced in '(9,. That !as the first actual performance" of a one-act" the
first opera !ritten in the opera complex cycle. But Trillium + !as the first of
the extended four-act operas that ? !ould have the chance to actually produce
onstage and record" and it meant everything to me to be able to do that"
because ? !as sinking into depression" looking for a !ay to get a performance.
Gou can !rite and compose all you !ant" but unless you can hear some of the
music" there%s no closure. .nd !hen ? think" for instance" !hat has happened
to composite aesthetic assumptions concerning .frican-.merican vibrational
and creative dynamics in this time period" the gift of the -ac.rthur
*ello!ship !ould make a profound difference in my life.
T!o !eeks ago" ? !ent into &e! Gork City. ?%m teaching this semester the
istory of .frican .merican -usic. ? !ent to nine different record stores"
-ike effley" looking for C#s of the music of William /rant =till. ? !as only
able to find three C#s of .frican .merican notated music. .s far as ?%m
concerned" the political decisions of the last ', years have involved !hat ?
!ould call +uadrant-specific coalition politics. Kuadrant-specific in the sense
that" looking back on the last ', years !e see a movement that has sought to
move to!ard idiomatic certainty" as opposed to !hat my interest has al!ays
been" !hich is responding to composite reality. Idiomatic certainty is a way
of talking about the kind of reductionism that has come to characterize
present-day notions of what we call the jazz musician. Reductionism" in the
sense of !here in the beginning" !e could look at the continuum of the music
and the recorded materials available demonstrating the music as the artifacts"
the sonic footprints of the path of evolution and experience of the great
creative masters !ho have brought us to this point in time. Reductionism"
then" is my !ay of looking at ho! that information has been redefined to
!here the language and conceptual experiences from the great lineage of
mastership of those individuals that !e call Aa@@ musicians have been fro@en"
and have become the sonic artifacts that have been used to reduce the
composite conceptual and vibrational implications of !hat that information
originally meant. And so when the term jazz musician is put forth in this
time period, it's put forth as part of a grand Southern political strategy.
=outhern political strategy in the sense that since the '(93s" in my opinion"
!hat !e have seen is a continuum of political decision that" one" !ould
reposition the &e! 7rleans experience as a point of definition of this erected
concept of canon" at the expense of a composite .merican creative experience
that reflects on .merican experiences in a !ay that transcends the political
and ethnic position parameters that have characteri@ed" even historically" ho!
.merican progressionalism is vie!ed.
What am ? sayingC ?%m saying that the emergence of the modern era--say from
'993 to '(F3--can be vie!ed on many different levels. The most important
level in this example !ould be the concept of the ?K as a reflection of
#ar!in%s evolution of the species" on the one component$ and on the other
side of that composition !ould be the concept of rhythm and blues as a !ay to
establish a thought unit that on one side says the Duropean and trans-Duropean
continuum is responsible for all of the intellectual advances of our species$
and on the other side" the concept of rhythm and blues as a !ay of saying that
.frican .mericans have this special feeling" and that the Duropeans" !ith all
their intellectual advancement" are someho! retarded in the area of natural
human feeling. ? see this intellectual gambit as profoundly fla!ed and false$ in
fact this is a political gambit that is consistent !ith the original =outhern
gambit that !ould involve the concept of )<,ths of a person as a !ay to Austify
a political decision that !ould enslave non-Duropean" especially .frican
.merican people.
- Eet me Aump in here for a second Aust to get my bearings. *rom !hat you
Aust said" it seems real clear to me ho! !e might compare not only hip-hop
but also the Aa@@ industrial complex to minstrelsy. .lso" ?%m thinking that as
you%ve matured as an artist" and at this period in your life" the genre of opera
has become very important to you. .lso from !hat you Aust said" and from
!hat ? kno! of your !ork" ? see ho! you incorporate the so-called Aa@@
tradition into !hatever goes into use in your opera. ? don%t see you as someone
!ho has come up in Aa@@ and then decided to cross over to 4classical4 music
tradition" ? see you more as someone !ho%s really engaging both traditions in
the !ay they%re actually engaged in .merican culture" and that your argument
is !ith the continued segregation in the marketplace of the cultural categories
signaled by genre" based on race to a large degree. So how would you
describe your relationship to this genre of opera at this point in your life
both as a personal tool for your own creative growth and creativity? .lso
maybe in comparison !ith someone like .nthony #avis !ho may be having
an easier time" if you agree !ith that" in getting across.
.B Before ? can deal !ith your +uestion" ? !ould have to first back up and
establish this perspective6 part of my problem" or part of the complexity of my
creative struggle" has been that there%s no category for an .frican .merican
person !ho%s interested in composite reality and in responding to it. ? think in
the very beginning" many of the problems that ? !ould experience !ould
come about because" for many sectors" ? !as an .frican .merican !ho did
not kno! my place$ !ho embraced the trans-Duropean and trans-.sian musics
to the same extent that ? embraced the trans-.frican musics because ? did not
experience a natural opposition to those continuua. 2art of the complexity of
the ethnic politics that has been the political gambit leading into the modern
era !ould be that the .frican-.merican person has to function !ithin a
defined @one" or parameter. ? have all this natural feeling" so-called$ if ? !ould
Aust behave and use my natural feeling and function as a Aa@@ musician as that
concept is being defined by the marketplace" then there could be possibilities.
But my problem was--or at least their perception of my problem was--
that in looking at a guy like Karlheinz Stockhausen and having an
affinity with him, as well as with Cecil Taylor, that in making the decision
to even think about an opera, I would suddenly violate the political
dimensions of what kind of experiences I would move toward, or what
kind of performance dictates would be available for a guy like me. ? mean
!e talk about Aa@@" and playing at the Hillage Hanguard as if at a shrine...but
the -etropolitan is also a shrine" but they%re dealing !ith another level of
financial support to do an opera. ?t%s no mistake that as !e move to!ard F33'"
that there%s been no performance of a William /rant =till opera. ?n fact" that
domain has been closed off in a !ay !here it%s like for a guy like me to even
think about opera" it%s almost perceived an un-.frican" or un-.frican-
.merican" or non-Aa@@" or--it%s something ?%m not even supposed to think
about.
Eet%s give a nod of ritual thank you for that small group of people !ho do
exist in .merica !ho are trying to promote inclusive and positive
participation in various creative spectra. That group has al!ays been there"
and that group has been the one that has helped me to stay alive. Were it not
for those special individuals" ? could not have been fortunate enough to get to
,, years old.
There are many people ? could talk about. Colleagues like the great Eeo
=mith" !hose !ork has never been embraced or commented on in a !ay that%s
e+ual to !hat he%s demonstrated. ?n fact" part of the beauty of my life !as the
experience ? had !ith the ..C-" and the information that has come out of
that experience. The ..C- !as a restructural and mystical union that !as
dedicated to advance composite information dynamics. =o !hen ? talk of my
!ork in opera" or any interdisciplinary kind of +uadrants" ?%m really talking of
the genesis components !hich came together in Chicago that affected all of
us. -y struggle has not been that different from my colleagues$ for instance" ?
!ould mention the !ork of the great Eeroy 1enkins" !hose music has yet to be
embraced by the composite media. ? !ould mention the great music of enry
Threadgill" the great music of 1oseph 1arman" the great music of -uhal
Richard .brams. These people !ere and are dedicated .mericans" people that
!e can be proud of. They !ere seeking to advance a position that !ould be
consistent !ith !hat .merica is all about. Their !ork has not been interpreted
correctly because" again" it goes back" in my opinion" to the axioms that !ould
determine !hat ? call the =outhern =trategy F333. Southern Strategy 2000 is
a way to regain an ethnic-centric parameter that would determine what
musicians could be successful and from which value systems. .xiom F
!ould determine !hich individuals !ould be allo!ed to be successful" and
!hat subAect and area focuses those individuals !ould have to talk about to
become successful$ and .xiom )" the nature of !hat kinds of flexibilities the
creative musician !ould have to entertain6 flexibilities involving vulgarity"
and input from the .PR people as far as !hat proAects could be documented
and !hat musicians !ould be used. As far as I'm concerned, the last 15
years was prepared in the 1980s, and we're seeing a fulfillment of this
Southern Strategy, which would also be connected to the African
American middle class, and finally the African American upper class.
.lso" connected to this strategy !ould be manipulation of image-logic
+uadrants$ ?%m thinking of the !ork of olly!ood in the last F3 and )3 years"
and also image logic manipulation on the television set. ? turn on the
television set" ? look at the political pundits discussing the coming elections$
only a couple of TH sho!s" like the Chris -atthe!s 4ardball4 sho!" !ill
include the input of .frican .merican intellectuals$ for the most part" !e%re
seeing F3 or )3 Duropean .merican intellectuals !ho are defining the
.merican intellectual schema as it relates to .merican political and social
dynamics. We can look at olly!ood and see the .frican .merican sidekick"
and invariably the .frican .merican sidekick has an iconic function" a
contemporary =hadrack or Rufus figure" !hether !e%re talking of =hadrack in
space" or =hadrack in the gangster movie. We look at the television set and !e
see an array of comedy sho!s" and in every instance !e see an .frican
.merican iconic figure that !ill be there as part of the concentric group set$
group set in this context !ould be" say" six central characters on a TH sho!"
one being .frican .merican--although there%s a little flexibility" and every
no! and then you%ll see t!o .frican .mericans--very rarely do !e see a
group set that has a composite reflector agent that includes the input of .sian
.mericans" or ispanic .mericans" !here !e can gain some sense of the
greater .merican vibrational spectrum. .ll of these matters" in my opinion"
are connected to this =outhern strategy that !ouldQ
- Let me ask you about this Southern strategy. I understand totally
what you're saying, but is this something you've kind of worked out for
yourself as a working concept, or do you actually envision some sort of
active cabal here? What I'm thinking is how the young neo-con guys are
from New Orleans; are you thinking of a contemporary Southern state of
mind that's taken over the mainstream arena?
.B Eet me put it like this6 !hat !e%re talking about transcends individuals"
but =outhern strategy is a good !ay of talking about this" in that the concept
of a =outhern strategy" and its success" in my opinion" has been that in many
!ays the =outhern strategy trumps the composite intellectual strategy. By that
? mean that the depth of slavery" and the actualness of slavery" !as of such a
dimension that everyone has to genuflect" especially in the trans-.frican
.merican intellectual community" to the profound !eight of the slavery
experience. =o the concept of the =outhern strategy in this context is a strategy
that sets the parameters for the intellectual dimensions of the music" and
trumps any thought unit that goes outside !hat is considered race-generic" if ?
can say it like that.
- What ? see going on here is that there%s obviously this arena that has
al!ays been going on in Aa@@" !here Aa@@ moved out of the national into the
international" and !hen it actually did engage !ith Duropean culture" it found
a much different kind of vibe and perception of the music" !ith !hite
Duropeanness than it found in .merica. There !as a !hole different set of
rules and !orldvie!s and so on that !ere relatively freer of the racial
dynamics in .merica. ?t seems to me that your body of !ork and your
sensibility and so on has been a prime example of one of the fullest
engagements in that arena" not only because you actually !orked there
because it !as the only place you could find most of your !ork" and so you
got familiar !ith Duropean culture" but because you engaged the Duropean
traditions that !ere also engaged here in .merica" but in different !ays.
When you talk about a Southern strategy, I start thinking, well, 1elly Roll
Morton, creole, opera, French opera, that whole thing--
.B --and remember, they kicked him out (laughs)--
MH --yeah, all the racial dynamics of lighter skin and darker skin within
African America, as well as between whites and blacks. I think of Louis
Armstrong coming from the South.
.B The =outhern strategy is also a !ay to understand the exclusion of the
contributions of the trans-Duropean creative musician" or in this context the
Duropean .merican contributions to the creative music tradition. ?%m
convinced more and more that the !hole idea of black music" Aa@@ music
doesn%t really encompass the correct context to talk about the evolution of
.merican creative music. 1a@@ !orks because" one" the Duropean .merican
political structure" from the beginning of the modern era" !ould place a
+uadrant circle around the black community" because the black community
serves several functions in .merica. The black community !ould be of a @one
!here the trans-Hictorian component !ould not be allo!ed to be dominant.
The black community !ould be the +uadrant that !ould challenge the trans-
Christian and especially the trans-2ythagorean component$ the black
community !ould be the +uadrant that !ould allo! for extended morality" or
existentially posited psychologies. =o the black community !as isolated
because" one" the Duropean .merican po!er structure needed to have it
isolated because of the psychology of racism" first" and also the psychology of
financial and economic dynamics. But the evolution of American creative
music, and finally the evolution of world music has always been much
greater than any territorial experience. ?n seeking to understand the
discipline of creative musics and the phenomenon of vibrational dynamics"
more and more ? think in terms of territorial experiences into continental
experiences into" finally" global experiences. From that paradigm what we
call white and black doesn't work in the same kind of way, because the
real history of our species and of creative music evolution has been a
history of human beings responding to one another, based on coming into
contact with one another, and that was the case in the Byzantine period,
in the Ottoman Empire period, in pre-classical Greece time period, the
period when the classical Greek information would go into the Islamic
world, to later be re-translated into the European universe and locale; it
was the case in the forming of the American area space, and it was the
case in the time period of colonialism. What !e see in this time period" in
my opinion" are efforts to undermine continental experiences as a !ay to
continue present-day notions of ethnic politics" of coalition politics" that%s
!hat !e%re really dealing !ith6 ethnic and racial politics" idiomatic politics"
and the phrase =outhern strategy in this context" in my opinion" involves the
latest component of this reconstituted agenda from the '993s that seeks to put
everybody back into their place again. By that ? mean put the .frican
.mericans back in their place" put the homosexual community back in their
place.
We establish a hegemony that involves the parameters of the black
experienceQ!ell" !e%re looking at a trans-Christian component" !hich is
interesting" because the time period of the '(;3s" and the reemergence of
.frican .merican nationalism can no! be vie!ed as a continuum that has not
been effective. .nd !e see that the young people of the .frican .merican
community are only able to be successful !hen aligned !ith the !ork of the
black church" and Christian component. But of course the Christian
component comes !ith a Catch-FF$ the !hole idea of the image of /od being
the image of someone other than yourself is inherently not healthy.
- Gou%re saying there%s a revival of the black church in the cultureC
.B 7h yes" the black church seems to beQlet me put it this !ay6 ? think !e%re
seeing a cyclic phenomenon. 2art of the progression of emancipation after the
Dmancipation 2roclamation !ould see the black church as the +uadrant that
could deliver demonstrated evolution. ? see that cycle coming back around"
and ? see it that !ay because it has been created politically. The ..C- !as
not able to achieve all it !ould have hoped for because there !ere political
components that !ould not allo! for certain initiations to go outside the
perceived parameters of !hat .frican .merican vibrational creative dynamics
should be about.
- ?n Chicago. Gou mean like a local church opposition or somethingC
.B &o" ?%m talking about the #emocratic 2arty. This is !hy ? have no use for
the #emocratic 2arty or for the liberals" and this is !hy ?%ve come to see that ?
can no longer afford to think in terms of having some kind of alignment !ith
the conservatives or the liberals. This is !hy a guy like Ralph &ader is a
person ? can support" because of demonstrated commitment" and this is !hy"
in my opinion" both the conservatives and the liberals hate &ader--but
actually" ? guess the conservatives love &ader" because they kno! that &ader
is taking a!ay from the liberal sector of the #emocratic 2arty.
- What !as it the #emocrats did in Chicago that blocked the ..C-C
.B The whole jazz platform, everything that's happened since the 1960s
in the jazz world, in my opinion, has come about through the liberal
sector, and that sector has postulated a concept of "we are with you in
communion around trans-African matters," while at the same time, what
they're really saying is "we're with you, but you had better follow our
concept of what you should be. We're with you as long as we can say that
jazz goes to 1965, and everything after that is not black." By chopping off
the restructural component of the music" !hat !e%ve seen in the last )3 years
has been that !ithout the head you start taking from the body" dra!ing from
stylistic influences. *rom that point" the musicians !ould start to go further
and further back in time$ no! !e%re back to the minstrel period" back to
=tagger Eee. But it%s taken for granted in every other community that
evolution is a point of fact.
*or instance" the trans-Duropean community" if the subAect is the Third
-illennium" looks ahead into digital evolution" looks ahead into the ubble
telescopeQ
- 7n the other hand" you must admit that the Duropean classical tradition is
the supreme example of cultural chauvinist nostalgia for the past" rather than
for!ard looking into the future. This !hole idea of canoni@ing everyone from
Bach on up !as really an idea of the last t!o recent centuries" and the
classical canon that exists today is definitely a back!ard look. =o it seems to
me that this Southern strategy you're talking about, as I understand it, is
like a mirror image of power relations--
AB --they're taking the same concept, a transposition--
MH --so they have a certain backward look over the jazz tradition that
mirrors that European gesture toward the composition tradition. But
!hat !ould you say then" given all that" !ould contra-distinguish your
positionC Gou obviously have this real serious" deep a!areness of !hat !e%re
calling the Aa@@ tradition%s connection to Duropean musical traditions" as !ell
as .frican traditions. Gou%ve al!ays proven your concern !ith both of those
aspects" and you%ve al!ays demonstrated them in your !ork. =o no! !e have
this =outhern strategy be a raising up of Aa@@ as .merica%s classical music"
modeling its po!er on the model of the Duropean gesture--
.B .s long as they accept the parameters of !hat they call Aa@@. What they
call Aa@@ is a reductive proposition that takes a!ay the restructural spectra of
the music. We can talk about Aa@@ from many different standpoints" but one
thing is certain6 Aa@@ !as the only +uadrant !here an .frican .merican
creative person !ould have the right of definition" to seal a definition$ but that
has no! changed. .ll of the musicians !ho !ould define a !ay for
themselves based on their understanding of affinity dynamics have been
kicked out. ?n their place we have a concept of jazz that is generic, that is a
reductive attempt to create an artificial quadrant that would have the
properties of what they call jazz.but in fact jazz was always much more
profound than what these people want to deal with anyway. Their problem
!ith the restructuralist tradition has al!ays been that the Dstablishment !as
never prepared to accept that an .frican .merican person could have an
intellectual thought that !ould be e+ual to the Duropeans.
- But consider this. ?n Duropean tradition and culture" in both Durope and
.merica" if !e have this trend of classici@ing and canoni@ing and looking
back on the masters of the past" idoli@ing and putting them on a pedestal" !e
also have the mavericks that you%ve liked and identified !ith so much--
Charles ?ves and the other .merican ?ndependent composers" through Cage"
and their counterparts in Durope" =tockhausenQ
.B .nd ? claim them as part of me.
- So can't we say that this Southern strategy and this whole jazz
industrial complex is kind of the African American community's response
to and version of the European power and conservative tradition, but
that there is also a European and European American tradition of people
like you, who do see the past being fulfilled in their work, but in different
ways?
.B ? !ould agree completely. That's the creative music tradition, and--
many things. We're talking of the European mystic creative traditions, as
well as its technocrat tradition. We're talking of the trans-African mystic
creative tradition, and the trans-African technocrat, or.appeaser's
tradition. laughter] And I don't mean that pejoratively, necessarily; I
can relate to the desire of every individual to have a good life, to be in the
middle class, and aspire to the upper class--but we're really talking about
the reality of value systems, the reality of political dynamics and the
trade-offs necessary to enter into certain sectors. =o ? have no problem
embracing #erek Bailey" or Dvan 2arker$ !hen ? found those guysQ!hen ?
!ent to Durope" ? didn%t go as the hip .frican .merican Aa@@ musician !ho
!as going to teach the Duropeans ho! to play the music. ? !ent there curious"
and excited about the hope of meeting kindred spirits" !ho !ere interested in
human creativity and creative evolution. That !as my position then and no!.
The subAect of human creativity is not an ethnic-centric" but a composite
subAect.
- .t this point" !hat !ould be interesting to me is" since you%ve sort of
given your vie!s on the unsettling state of the .merican scene--the .frican
.merican community" the Aa@@ scene" the =outhern strategy" and the
commercialism gone global and all that--your vie!s on the Duropean scene of
improvisers" and !hat you think might be the challenge there in terms of !hat
directions that culture and scene have taken since you%ve been engaged !ith it
and seen it so up close.
.B Wonderful +uestion. .fter this intervie!" ? !ill only be able to live in
.ntarctica. *irst" ? !ould say that ? support creative musicians in every !ay"
regardless of continent. ? feel that in the last ten years" !e are experiencing so
many different levels of coalition politics that it%s become very interesting. ?%m
happy" for instance" that colleagues ?%ve gro!n up !ith" like Dvan 2arker and
#erek Bailey" are starting to have opportunities in .merica" Aust as" !hen ?
!as a young guy" the Duropeans saved me. aving the opportunity to go to
2aris" to travel in continental Durope !ould make the difference in my !hole
life. =o ?%m very grateful and proud" to see that there%s reciprocity" and that
over the last '3-', years !e%re starting to see more possibilities for great
Duropean musicians to have opportunities to perform in .merica.
.t the same time" ? find it interesting ho! the total improvised musician%s
community is being used in a !ay that posits Dvan 2arker%s music as the state
of the state" but someho! doesn%t recogni@e the great !ork of Roscoe -itchell
as e+ual to Dvan 2arker. We%re seeing idiomatic !ars" or idiomatic supremacy
psychologies" !hen in fact the dynamic implication of the ..C- pointed
to!ard a trans-idiomatic music. Suddenly we find ourselves swinging the
pendulum from "if it's totally notated, it's correct, it's the best; now, if it's
totally improvised, it's the best." It's another form of idiomatic certainty;
it's, again, a form of emphasizing the "ism" at the expense of the "is."
- Gou mentioned Roscoe -itchell as an example. .re you thinking of him
as someone !ho has a fruitful combination of notation or orchestration along
!ith improvisationC
.B Roscoe -itchell has demonstrated total improvisational musics and music
strategies$ Roscoe -itchell has demonstrated restructural multi-
instrumentalism$ Roscoe -itchell has demonstrated composition for chamber
musics" orchestra musics. o! do !e find ourselves in the situation !here a
guy !ho%s done so much is someho! looked at as secondary to Dvan 2arkerC
- Why do you think people look at him as secondaryC
.B ? feel that part of the coalition politics that !e%re dealing !ith !ould be
the =outhern strategy" on one end--but one component of the =outhern
strategy" in my opinion" is the move to reinstill high Duropean vibrational
dynamics as part of a mono-hierarchical thought unit that does not allo! for
e+ual respect or celebration of similarities and differences. Rather than
ackno!ledging a spectrum of mastersQ
- This is interesting to me because of my recent work in Berlin. Let me
ask it this way: all these FMP guys, and those in England, clearly came
into their styles as a result of the inspiration they got from African
American musicians. So once they came into those styles, and solidified
them as, like you say, idiomatic territories, are you saying then that you
think maybe the deep subconscious of the European culture is seeping up
from the bottom and making them sort of claim that territory as being
somehow better than that African American ground?
.B ? am saying that +uality is present$ but even more than that +uality" many
of the political forces that are manipulating events are doing it from that
psychology. 1ust as many of the young .frican .merican bebop guys coming
out of the universities cannot be faulted for suddenly finding themselves
pushed up front in a position in !hich they find that their music represents the
state of the state of the music. ?n fact" many of these young people are
fulfilling several doctrines$ among those is the understanding of bringing in a
group of people that can be defined" and !hose opportunity !ill operate
!ithin the constraints of the po!er center. ? see something like that happening
also !ith the Duropean improvised musics" in terms of the political
components !hich are operating to determine ho! that music is being vie!ed"
as compared to musicians like myself.
- .lso as compared to the actual Duropean musicians themselves" because
you%re sayingQ!hat are you talking about" the mediaC
.B The media" the festivals" performance outlets" maga@inesQand ?%m talking
about the value systems !hich have been attached to the music. ?%m also
talking about ho! many of my colleagues are allo!ing these misdefinitions to
be advanced !ithout challenging them.
- Because it%s in their interests to do soC
.B When I went to Europe, and when I had that period in time when I
was the recipient of a lot of publicity, I made sure that everyone
understood that if you're dealing with Braxton, you're dealing with Paul
Desmond, Warne Marsh, as well as Charlie Parker and 1ohn Coltrane.
Not only that, you're dealing with Karlheinz Stockhausen and Richard
Wagner, and Ahmad 1amal and Dinah Washington, and that you cannot
accept me without accepting the family that made me possible. ?%m not
al!ays getting that from my colleagues$ ?%m getting more of a revenge of the
pendulum. But the pendulum !ill s!ing left and right al!ays" because every
time period has a pendulum s!ing that covers the spectrum.
- =o can !e say that it%s entirely possible that a musician !ho%s one of your
colleagues" !hom you%ve performed and recorded !ith" can be totally in your
corner as a human being" and say 4? love .nthony" ? respect him" etc."4 but in
the course of their life and the choices they make in the !ay their body of
!ork evolves" Aust like anybody" they act in their o!n immediate interests and
needs" and !hat they have to do" and that is !hat resultsC
.B ? think that is the case--but it gets even deeper. There is the reality" for
instance" of the intervie!" and !hat !e think !e%re talking about" as opposed
to ho! that information comes out in the press. That%s t!o different things.
My experience in the '70s told me that whatever I would say, they would
write about it basically the way they wanted to write about it anyway,
because I served a need in that period. That's not to say that everything
that was written about me was incorrect, but rather that when the
radiant spotlight falls on a person's work for a given period of time, a lot
of different forces come with that spotlight, and not all of those forces are
thinking of advancing a person's work on every partial with respect for
how that person would hope for it to be advanced. Then add to that
subliminal components" !hich all of us are dealing !ith. =o the subAect of the
modern-day creative musics--!hich" more and more" ? even reAect that phrase"
because there%s really onlyQcreative Western music" as opposed to" say" the
creative music that%s happening in China" or the other non-Western cultures.
The psychology of the creative musics and that of the entertainment musics.
.nd the psychology of the entertainment musics has been the aesthetic goal of
the =outhern strategy$ they%ve moved the creative music that guys like myself
!ere !orking !ith" they%ve changed the aesthetic concept to entertainment
being the highest goal again. We%re back to the Disenho!er years$ ?%m !aiting
for *ranklin #elano Roosevelt to come out of his grave and take a!ay Bro!n
vs. the Board of Dducation.
- I think I understand what you mean by the Southern strategy, but
it's still hard for me to get my head around the idea that it might be
occupying the center place in American global capitalism at the moment.
AB You put your finger right on it.
MH You think it is there?
AB I feel that this time period, in many ways is analogous with the dawn
of the modern era. That's why I keep going back to the late 1800s to
1920s. The same components are at !ork$ and in this time period" in seeking
to understand those components" !e can look at the phenomenal success of
Wall =treet over the last ', years$ the greatest gains in the history of our
country. We%re seeing mergers on a level that%s e+ual to the early '(33s. We%re
seeing a ne! tier of super-rich people" that ' per cent .l /ore liked to talk
about$ and on the other side" the gap bet!een rich and poor is !idening. The
=outhern strategy" in my opinion" is part of this greater component that really
reflects on multinational reductionism" and multinational reductionism in this
context has kicked out )<0 of the recording companies and merged them into
one$ controlling the performing outlets" bringing in a group of guys !ho are
!orking all over the planet because they play ball. This is political" and part of
a political strategy6 if you play ball" you can be successful" because the ball
has neverQthere%s never been greater abundance" because !e are again at this
cycle of dynamic technology that has resulted in ne! possibilities for making
money. 1a@@ is a part of that$ the Aa@@ business complex is that @one that
controls the music$ the motion picture industry is the @one that controls image
logics in the film$ television has its domain$ so !e%re talking of political and
aesthetic domain parameters.
- The thing ?%m trying to get my mind around here is that the !hole idea of
the =outhern culture as being a paradigm" or !orldvie!" !as kind of knocked
out of the picture in the Civil War. =o ?%m trying to figure out ho! exactly you
mean the term. ? kno! that the history of =outhern culture is basically
colonial" the plantation" the master-slave domain" etc.$ but !hen !e think of
modern global capitalism" including the music industry" !e think of it coming
out of &e! Gork" or West Coast entrepreneurialism and so onQ
.B ?t is coming out of &e! Gork$ they brought the =outh to &e! Gork. By
=outhern strategy in this context" take the blues" for instance. The blues is
being posited as the legitimate proAection for .frican .mericans to function
inside of. -ore and more" the blues is being defined as an idiomatic generic
state as opposed to an infinite affinity state" !hich is !hat it really is. The
blues" in my opinion" is being used as a !ay to marshal and limit" or define the
parameters" of .frican .merican intellectual and vibrational dynamics. With
the blues" they can say 4this is black music.4 ?f it%s not the blues" if you !rite
an opera" they can say" 4oh" this is not black music.4 ?f it%s blues" it can be
received and appreciated as consistent !ith !hat .frican .mericans are
supposed to be involved !ith.
- Given that the jazz musician has been redefined in this way to be an
idiomatically correct version of blackness, and that they're really
succeeding in the record companies because of that, and there are
actually people out there making good livings at it, and are in the highest
American cultural spaces now too...how would you characterize their
relationship to those African American composers of notated music that
you mentioned? Are they ashamed of them or something?
.B That%s one of the sacrifice @ones" because the thrust-continuum of the
trans-.frican composer%s tradition is a tradition that challenges the intellectual
domain of ideas" and this has been one of the sacrificed components. This is
!hy" ? believe" my music has met !ith such intense reactions" because one
component of my tradition" that being the composer%s notated tradition" is a
tradition that%s never been respected" but that disrespect is not separate from
the components of the modern era%s psychology. That%s !hy in the beginning
!hen !e first started to talk about this ? mentioned #ar!in%s .rigin of Species
as a point of definition for the understanding of a hierarchy of intelligence.
Duropeans at the top--
- =ocial #ar!inism.
.B Ges" thank you. .nd on the other side" rhythm and blues" or this natural
feeling" as the domain .frican .mericans can operate in--
- =o that they can then say 4!e%re at the top of emotional<natural
intelligence" and you Duropeans are at the bottom.4
.B -ean!hile" the African American composer's tradition, going back to
people like Frank 1ohnson, was one that had no slot, as a category that
could be accommodated and respected. In fact, it was a continuum that
shouldn't have existed if African Americans had no intellectual weight,
and so it would be a sacrifice continuum, even in that early period from
the 1880s to 1920s. The .frican .merican notated tradition is connected to
the emergence of Broad!ay" it%s connected to the development of modern
dance" and to active existential rhythm. .ctive rhythm is one of the main
components that !ould define the poetic dynamics of the modern era" but !e
don%t talk about active rhythm$ it doesn%t even exist as a category.
- What exactly do you mean" active existential rhythmC
.B /enerally" the Duropean tradition likes to talk of =travinsky as a point of--
- 7h" you mean as opposed to metered rhythmC
.B Ges.
Session 2 was lost to a technical problem. The following, session 3, refers
back to it enough to convey the gist of it...
- We%ve covered a lot of things that you%ve discussed in print over the years
that are still timely" because the scene remains much the same and changes
slo!ly and so on$ ?%d like this article to remind everybody that you%re someone
!ho%s been thinking and talking about these things for a long time" and that
this is part of that continuum" but is also something of an update" !ith ne!
things covered--very much an observation of no! as !ell as the past. To
revie! a bitQ!e didn%t get into your o!n !ork too much yet" !hich ? !ant to
do$ and !e didn%t talk much about the future" !hich !e%ll get to too. But !hen
!e !ere talking about the past" !hat emerged--mainly from your talk about
the =outhern strategy--is this picture of the history of the music as being
something uni+uely of the F3th century. Gou !ere referring to the late '933s a
lot" and to the '(F3s" and you painted a good picture of ho! the music
emerged at first from this Duropean paradigm that defined it and presented it
to the !orld at first" in a lot of !ays. The course of the music%s development
!as one of getting outside of that frame!ork--being outside of it all along"
from the beginning" on its o!n terms" but in the terms of the larger !orld
framing it" constantly reaching to get beyond it" to varying degrees
successfully" up until the '(;3s" !hen you and your peers came along. The
trend of the times then !as very much a +uantum leap outside of the
Western<.merican frame!ork and a reach to the global roots and potential
and possibilities. .fter that little !indo! of the %;3s and %B3s" !e sa! a
regression in the %93s back to the old co-optation game of the =outhern
strategy. =o that !as very much the thrust of our last session.
What ?%d like to do at this point before !e go on to the other things is explore
!hat you introduced as ethnic and racial coalitions and politics" the concept of
those things" to get our bearings and situate ourselves in terms of your !ork
and !hat you%ve been active in. ?%m thinking here of" as you mentioned before"
your constant involvement from the beginning !ith not only the .frican
.merican tradition" but also !hat you called trans-/ermanic--Wagnerian"
=tockhausen$ also you mentioned a 1e!ish presence in terms of =choenberg.
7bviously that%s been an important element in your !ork. Gou also mentioned
trans-.sian" and ? !ant to get into that a little bit. Tell me ho! you see this
big paradigm of racial-ethnic identity politics" and cultural politics" !here the
Duropeans have been on top" and then challenged by .frican .mericans" and
!here the black middle class has turned that challenge into sort of a mirror
game" by claiming the one-up position on the hierarchy rather than getting out
of the po!er-political game altogether. ?%m interested in the t!o sides of the
coin here. *irst" re6 Wagner" you%re !ell a!are of ho! Wagner%s reputation has
suffered as being tainted by &a@ism$ all your colleagues in /ermany dismiss
him for that--yet you embrace him in spite of the problematic repercussions"
the flack you%ve taken for your similar embrace of Duropean .merican
musicians. ? think it !ould help readers understand ho! you%ve managed to
keep this position if !e talk about the light side and the dark side a little bit.
. 7kay. *or me" then" !hat !e%re really talking about is some attempt to
understand this time period" the concept of the modern era and all of !hat that
concept implied" as far as !hat tenet components !ould comprise the
variables that all of us as human being !ould find ourselves dealing !ith in
the last '33" 'F3 years. By the term "Southern strategy," I want to be clear
with this; I'm not only talking about the "New Orleans phenomenon,"
I'm talking of the political psychologies and strategies that have
dominated the domain of information and vibrational dynamics in
American culture, and what that domination would pose for the erection
of quadrant politics, coalition politics, ethnic politics, intellectual
dynamics, and the resulting decisions that would come out of that
alignment, and how that phenomenon would set up the constructs of the
modern era.
*or myself" ? see my position as consistent !ith .frican .mericans after the
Dmancipation 2roclamation. ? have from the beginning sought to find a
vie!point that !ould allo! me as a human being to participate in composite
reality" in the sense that ? !anted to have an experience that !ould reflect my
interests" those things that ?%ve discovered in life" and to have the possibility to
integrate that information" and hopefully to evolve in a !ay that !ould be
consistent !ith my beliefs. The concept of the modern era !ould also of
course have a spiritual component" and that spiritual component--especially
the trans-Christian aspect of it--!ould also fuse on the tri-plane the various
axiomatic tendencies that have become the accepted norm in this time period
as far as general perceptions of reality. ?t is from that point that ?%ll try to
respond to your +uestion.
?n seeking to explore and learn about history" ? think the most basic focus that
? can come up !ith at this point !ould be that period of exploratory recording
that !e generally associate !ith .lan Eomax and" later" 1ohn ammond. ?t
!ould be in that period !hen !e !ould see the manipulations to contain
idiomatic and vibrational +uadrant spaces concerning .frican .merican
affinity postulates" and the gradual move to create alternative +uadrant spaces
for .frican .merican experiences as opposed to integrating those experiences
into a composite platform that reflected .merican vibrational dynamics. ?t
!ould be !ith those +uadrant political strategies that the first echelon of
idiomatic parameters--i.e." 4.frican .merican music4--!ould be undertaken.
? read this morning in a maga@ine that some basketball player !ho%s making
multimillions--!ho" of course" is angry" since all .frican .mericans are
angry" !hether it%s Austified or not" since anger has become one of the +ualities
that our young people seem to embrace" !hich is to say it%s become almost a
minstrel tenet" !hat has happened !ith anger in this time period. This young
man is doing his hip-hop C#" and the article talked about ho! foul this C# is
in terms of language. *or me" it triggered the early notions of ho! the .frican
.merican community !ould gravitate to!ard blues" ho! in the initial gambit
of !hat !e no! call race recordings !as to present the .frican .merican
community as being more fascinated !ith 4blues4 than !ith composite
initiations. ? disagree !ith that vie!point. ? think of the .merican master
.bner 1ay" !ho spoke of his !ork and himself as the last of the minstrel
musicians. ? recall that !hen talking !ith -r. 1ay" he talked about his
struggle" and finally his reAection" or the reAection of his music" by the .frican
.merican community. *or me" -r. 1ay%s experience and the conversation ?
had !ith him !as indicative of the profound forces at !ork.
- Eet%s Aust say that he !as a man you met in the =outhQ
. ? met -r. 1ay in Tennessee" !hen ? had the opportunity to go perform there.
- .nd he !as an itinerant musician !ho !orked out of his carQ
. Ges" and sold C#s of his music$ ? have about F3 of them. ?ncredible music.
- ?f he%s the last of the minstrel musicians" you obviously mean that in a
praising kind of !ayQ
. That%s right.
- But you !ere criti+uing this period as being like a regression to minstrelsy"
so !hat%s the distinctionC
. The distinction is that !hat !e call minstrel music is complex. There are at
least three or four different levels. There%s the first level of Duropean
.mericans recogni@ing the creativity in the slave +uarters as a component for
attraction and assimilation$ t!o" there !ould be the response from the .frican
.merican community that !ould mimic the mimicers$ and three" there !ould
be a contingent of .frican .merican creative musicians !ho !ould seek to
parlay that polarity--that is to say" to take the original and dynamic
components of that experience" and attempt to do something !ith that.
- Where does .bner 1ay fall in thatC
. .bner 1ay !ould fall into that group. The fourth level !ould be minstrelsy
as an 4ism"4 that being a parameter that !ould become part of the idiomatic
character components that !ould be used to define the identity state of !hat is
4correct4 for .frican .mericans--i.e." translating into .mos and .ndy"
translating into those components and ideas that !ould form the early
attempts to frame .frican .merican vibrational dynamics and identity.
- &o! !hile !e%re in this period of--you kno!" .bner 1ay being very old and
going back to the minstrelsy period in a !ay that reflects the natural human
complexity of it in the !ay that you like and identify !ith" and since you also
identify !ith the opposite end of the spectrum" of post-Dmancipation .frican
.merican culture embodied in people like *rank 1ohnson and other
composersQ
. ?n fact" this is !here ? !as going !ith this. Part of this gambit, and this
idea that through the race records the marketplace manipulators would
frame this viewpoint that the African American community was only
interested in blues.part of that gambit would involve sacrificing the
composite creative spectrum, especially the creative experiences taking
place in the North. It would be in that context that the thrust continuum
of experiences from the African American composers like Frank 1ohnson,
William Grant Still, 1ames Reese Europe, Will Marion Cook--this
continuum would be sacrificed in terms of the significance of their input
as conceptualists and composers. What !e !ould have instead !ould be
glorification of folk music into blues" !ith the solidification of race recordings
taking the position that the .frican .merican community !as really an
outgro!th of the blues psychologies exclusively. This is my point.
- #o you see" then" .bner 1ay and the black composers" especially the opera
composers--!e had opera composers in the '933s tooQ
. That%s right.
- #o you see these opposite poles on the same spectrum in a composite
reality senseC
. Ges. ?f !e !ere to look at the emergence of the great .merican musics" !e
!ould be forced to look at the fusion solidification of ?rish and .frican
.merican music moving into the country string-band continuum" !hich !ould
later set up propositions for active rhythmic-logic folk musics" moving into
country music and rhythm and blues" all as one unit" as opposed to ho! it !as
segregated by the marketplace because of social reality" political reality"
ethnic reality" and finally racialist<racist psychologies. That !ould be one
tenet component of the modern era.
- .nd !e might add too that the thing that came to define !hiteness" !hich
is country-and-!estern music" had a lot of black input all along tooQ
. ?n every period" until it !as impossible because of the .frican .merican
community and musicians% community backing a!ay from it. By '(F3" '()3"
the string band tradition !ould become Duropeani@ed" exclusively" and it
!ould be at this point that the historiography !ould define that continuum as
a Duropean .merican one. =o again !e find ourselves looking at the dynamic
implications of the reductionism that has played a role" at the beginning" even"
in the entry of the modern era psychologies.
- 7kay" no! let me move from there to Wagner" because he !as in this time
period too" late '933s.
. Ges.
- =o whatever was going on in America with the African American
community, composite reality, Frank 1ohnson and the other composers
who went to Europe themselves, Wagner was establishing this poetic-
logic mythology of the Northern European, Nordic mythology in his
operas.
A Yes.
M .and also establishing his musical innovations. How, staying with the
composite reality framework, what is there of interest in Wagner to an
African American post-Emancipation guy who's interested in composite
reality?
. *or me" your +uestion is complex and dynamic" as of course you kno! it is.
Wagner !ould signify the next Auncture in trans-Duropean progressionalism" a
Auncture that !ould redefine the components of the trans-Christian movement
that solidified in Rome. ?n fact" Wagner !ould solidify the axiomatic
tendencies" the tenet components of the trans-2ythagorean information
continuum--
- .s opposed to the trans-ChristianCQ
. Qin the sense that his music !ould accept a composite aesthetic vie!point
that existentially !ould fulfill--!ell" ? mean" one" total integration of the trans-
Duropean experience coming to /lastonbury" infusing the Duropean mystic
tradition !ith the &orthern Duropean mythic components.
- What do you mean by /lastonburyC
. /lastonbury !as the last mystical center" coming from Rome" extending
through continental experiences" tracking the experiences of the great
Duropean peoples moving from the southern part of the continent and
expanding all the !ay up to the north. istorians talk of the gap in Duropean
mysticism that occurred in the #ark .ges and !as found again in the -iddle
.ges$ that gap !ould be the break in the acceptance of the great classical
information that came out of /reece" that information !ent into the ?slamic
nations$ it !ould be in the ?slamic cycle that the phenomenon of belief !ould
posit another echelon of information related to affinity dynamics permeating
and affecting the science of music--i.e." the =ufi movement--and it !ould be
only later that the Duropeans !ould re-adopt that information. ?n that time
period" for instance" the Council of Trent" !hen it came together" that meeting
!ould be a point of definition for reintegration of the mechanics of .ristotle--
the faulty mechanics of .ristotle--and concepts such as the infallibility
position !ould be reinforced and assumed again. But the Duropean mystic
information that Wagner tapped !ould also involve" like the idea of 2arsifal
as connected to the brotherhood of believers !ho !ould assume the
philosophical position of 4redeem the redeemer"4 and that phrase !as a code
phrase. Christ died and gave his life for us$ !e can redeem that act by
fulfilling the tenet structure of Christianity. But it !as more complex than
that$ 4redeem the redeemer4 !as also another !ay of describing the profound
experiences of 2arsifal and his legion of men" those being that they !ould
cohabit !ith non-Duropeans" and in doing so !ould become !eaker.
=uddenly" the story of 2arsifal !ould be the story of the Duropean man
finding his !ay back into the pure tenet structure of trans-Duropean spiritual
dynamics.
7f course" the implications of this idea !ould establish the basis for a concept
of a pure .ryan continuum. Wagner in this mythic structure !as subtly
commenting upon the continental infusion of the trans-1e!ish people$ he !as
also commenting on the dynamic implications of the colonial experiences.
The Duropeans !ere traveling no! outside of the continent" and they%re
coming back !ith stories from China" from .merica$ they%re coming back
!ith the kind of stories that" ho!ever one chooses to look at them" made clear
that other mythologies and psychologies did exist on the planet. Those
experiences !ould challenge the information order of the trans-Duropean
experience" as !ell as its spiritual dynamic. 7n one end !e !ould have" in the
-iddle .ges" the 2rotestant oppositions$ so all of these factors !ere
challenging the Catholic" principle psychological-spiritual position. =o
Wagner used the occasion to reinforce the principle spiritual disposition that
emphasi@ed the importance of adhering to the fundamental spiritual
component. /lastonbury" then" !ould be the last Duropean mystical schoolQ
for instance" the !ritings of ermes Trismegistus" resulting in the concept of
light and darkness as polarities" light as positive and black as negative" non-
positive. The European mystic tradition in Glastonbury would be the
fulfillment of those spiritual tenets that sought to clarify the principle
spiritual line as opposed to the polarity of the Protestant challenge, as
opposed to the intellectual complexity that the new 1ewish intellectuals
would bring into continental Europe, and Russia. Wagner, then, would go
to the Northern European myth structures--Parsifal, and his son
Lohengrin--as mythic characters that could be used to portray the fall
from the "correct" spiritual stance that the king represented. 2arsifal !as
like a guy !ho !as basically stupid" and he had to be stupid. /lastonbury
makes that connection6 King .rthur pulling the s!ord from the stone. .ll of
this involves not an intellectual stance" it involved an understanding of the
importance of belief" and also of love and union. =o 2arsifal !ould reAect the
lady !ho !anted to bring him do!n--this again !ould be another Christian
iconic axiom" the !omen having this negative role. That negative role !as
installed in the classical /reek period" because all of these motherfuckers in
the classical period had a negative disposition to!ard the !omen" because the
!omen for them !ere related to the trans-Duropean goddess continuum"
!hich !as overthro!n" and the problem !ith the !omen !as that the !omen
!ere interested in composite reality" and in balance and holistic philosophies.
The !omen had to be put in a +uadrant" because the classical /reek scholars
had started to understand the value of dialectical models that could be used
toQlike /aelen" to explore medical scienceQ
- Rationalism.
. The rationalistic mode. =o !ere talking about 2lato and .ristotle" as guys
!ho !ould take the !orld culture information" especially from Dgypt" and
politici@e that information. .nd also rationali@e it" !hich also carried an
ethnic psychological component. Remember" 2ythagoras" as great as he !as"
!as also open for the political gambit of that time period$ 2ythagoras !ould
establish an occult position on one end" and on the other end" he had the kind
of flexibility that !ould allo! for his system to be integrated. e !ould
reduce composite phenomena into acoustic phenomena" so 2lato%s Timaeus set
up the propositions for that transfer. That%s !hy the Timaeus is so respected in
this period$ it !ould" on one hand" talk of the shining city on the hill that
Reagan !ould later appropriate$ and" on the other hand" the Timaeus and
Pythagoras would say when something happens, the "it" of the
happening could be explained by its acoustic relationships. A very subtle
change, but a profound one. So suddenly we're at the point of the
sacrifice of composite pitch dynamics into rationally related pitch
schemes.
- This is the beginning of Western modalism and tonality" isn%t itC
. Thank you. .nd mean!hile" the ladies" someone like =appho" for instance.
=appho" and the reason her !ork !as imported" in terms of the oral history
that came do!nQ=appho !as the restructural master !ho" rather than singing
only of the god" !hich !as the historical myth position of the ancient /reek
musicQ=appho started to include her life in her music. =elf-reali@ation. That
!as a mystic position that !as also Dgyptian. This !as another reason !hy
=appho" the trans-feminine continuum" !as not necessarily falling !ithin the
ne! dynamics that !ere coming" because they !ere including individual
experience as part of the aesthetic. That had to be +uadranted off" and later not
built upon.
- &o! !hile !e%ve gotten to there" let me digress. 7ne of the areas !e talked
about off tape the last time !as this issue of the tradition of hermaphroditism"
or homosexuality" and also feminism in the music" that is sort of coming to the
fore no!. When ? !as a kid" and coming up in Aa@@" it !as a real macho kind
of area$ but no! !e get information about -iles #avis and =un Ra" Cecil"
stuff about their sexuality being more open than it !ould have been in the
past. I'm thinking of this ancient tradition in the West and all over the
world of this blurred boundary between genders, the image of the
hermaphrodite, as being sort of a fertility image, and very involved in
culture and the blurring of borders. And this is what we're talking about,
the drawing of borders and the blurring of them here.
. =o homosexuality !ould be one of the +uadrants that !ould be sacrificed in
the modern era.
- .nd yet the /reeks !ere a homosexual society" and part of their misogyny
!as tied up !ith that.
. Well" no!adays the contemporary conservatives" in the past F3 and )3
years" have tried to posit a vie!point that homosexuality !as something that
!as invented in '(;3 or something. ?t%s obscene. .nd part of the struggle for
homosexuals in the last F333 years has been to overcome the trans-Christian
gambit that !ould be the spiritual and mystical fulfillment of those postulates
that !ould come out of the #ark .ges. This" for me" is a Duropean" and trans-
Duropean affair that is part of the complexities" the trade-offs that Duropeans
!ould find themselves dealing !ith. This phenomenon is a component that
emerges and re-emerges and is suppressed. We can talk of .llen Turin" for
instance" the great mathematician<computer visionary !ho !as never given
credit for his !ork because he !as a homosexual. =o !e%re talking of the
continental Duropean experience that !ould be transposed in .merica" but
then in .merica the .frican .mericans" by becoming the 7ther" the
homosexual !ould be situated as the other 7ther on the tri-plane$ and only
no! has assumed the position !here there !ould be the hope in the next time
cycle of our culture finding a healthy balance !here human beings could have
a right to live their lives. =o all of these components have to be included to
understand the axiomatic tenet components that comprise !hat !e call the
modern era.
- -oving from =appho" then" up to one of your next big metaphysical
feminine influences" and back into the &orthern Duropean mythology"
ildegard of Bingen is a !oman in /erman history !ho really helped" along
!ith -eister Dckhart" bring to the fore the /erman language and cultural
identityQyou kno!" the /ermans !ere the barbarians for a!hile in Durope"
coming out of the savage &orth. What ?%m trying to get at here is your affinity
for the /erman culture in your music" in Wagner" and his myth. What I hear
when you talk is that just as African Americans came into America from
outside the Christian continuum and from a whole different history in
Africa, including a lot of concourse with Islamic influences, and
indigenous Egyptian and African traditions and religions, so too did the
Northern Europeans come in as barbarians to Christianity rather late in
Europe; and when we get into Wagner, we see them getting back in touch
with the mythology that.like you said, sort of a return to the roots. ?s
part of your affinity" as !ho you are and !hat you%re dealing !ith from the
%;3s onQyou kno!" in the %;3s a lot of .frican .mericans !ere concerned
!ith getting back in touch !ith pre-Western roots in .frica" even if in a
mythic sense" Aust to get out of the !hole slavery experience and get back in
touch !ith !hatever !as before that" including outside of and before
Christianity. ?s part of your affinity for Wagner and his move to do the same
thing for &orthern Duropean identity a recognition of a similar kind of
experienceC
. ? !ould say yes. But to respond to your +uestion" ? !ould have to put it
another !ay. ?n the %;3s" ? !as interested in trying to understand composite
reality" and .frica !as a component of composite reality$ but ? !as never
interested solely in .frica" or in Durope" or in any one proAection as much as
Aust !anting the right to be interested in !hatever ? !as interested in at the
time.
&o! there are several parts to your +uestion. Hildegard von Bingen, for me,
is significant, because like Sappho, and Wagner, she adopted a first-
person relationship with her work. =he felt empo!ered through a mystical
connection in the same !ay that =appho !ould have an aesthetic that included
her life" moving to!ard self-reali@ation. ildegard !ould receive her
information through her relationship !ith the heavens" and from that point
!ould define her o!n understanding of the se+uence" !ith a more intervallic
component of se+uential logics" that !ould distinguish her from her
colleagues.
- Gou%re referring to Se/uentia0
. &ot Aust that" but the methodologies of that time period in terms of
/regorian chant" and the components of it. ? think ildegard !ould make
much broader Aumps in her material than !hat !as the norm. ildegard von
Bingen !ould be a point of definition for composite aesthetic mystic
narratives" moving to!ard Wagner. ?t !as ildegard !ho !ould compose the
first of the spiritual musics and narrative dramas" allegorical good and evil
experiences on the earth and mystical plane. *rom that point" Wagner !ould"
centuries later" decide to create a composite aesthetic music" to integrate
composite information" linking him to ildegard" !ho linked back to =appho.
That continuum" as far as ?%m concerned" is not al!ays understood" but it !as
a heavy continuum. That is my link to ildegard" =appho" and Wagner.
- =o is Wagner also someone !ho is part of that link because" in some !ay"
his proAect of digging into &orthern Duropean myth" in the !ay that you%ve
described" is also a process of self-reali@ationC
. Ges. &ot only that6 on the technical plane" Wagner is not a guy !ho !rote
the string +uartets in the same !ay as his colleagues$ his music does not
affirm the formal mechanics that he inherited from the great ?talian tradition.
is music !ould create ne! formal states$ his music !ould explore tonality
based on his o!n value systems" and his music !ould provide a context to
demonstrate the state of the state information" !hether !e%re talking of the
state of the ne! brass instruments" or of the ne! notation that had been
clarified by the great #utch restructuralists in the .rs &ova movement earlier$
Wagner would create his own rules and build a music so awesome that
not only could it not be denied, but that everything that would come after
his music would have to define itself in terms of his music, either building
on it or rejecting it.
- =o this kind of brings us to this trans-historical group of people that you
call restructuralists.
. But let me add another guy6 =criabin. =criabin !ould be the Russian
e+uivalent !ho !ould respond to Wagner. .fter Wagner" the challenge !ould
be to create a composite aesthetic holistic psychology and fantasy state$ that%s
!hat the -ysterium !as going to be" had =criabin lived to complete his
platform" but that platform !as responding to !hat =criabin had learned from
Wagner. =o the tentacles of this holistic music" and the great Ring Cycle"
!ould bring in the animals again" !ith the humans$ !ould deal !ith incest"
!ith the dynamics of the relationship bet!een men and !omen. Tristan and
?solde--
- Gou mean things that had been undermined by ChristianityC
. .ll of the things that Christianity could not solidify and stamp out$ Wagner
!ould take the Christian experience and the greater experience from
composite reality and" again" bring them back together. .gain" animals"
dragons that talked" father and son" mother and daughter" and the adventures
of lineages6 2arsifal into EohengrinQThe dynamic implications of Wagner%s
!ork touched on everything.
Even the great trans-1ewish mystic component could not undermine the
great Wagnerian aesthetic--but in the work of Schoenberg, the seeds of
linear development would evolve, in the concept of existential pitch sets.
=o my connection !ith Wagner is complete. e !as not afraid to talk of
love--not Aust Christian love but love and Christian love. e !ould explore
propositions that later !ould lend themselves to interpretations that could be
called racist" but in fact the dynamic actualness of his music transcends
modern era psychologies that !ould have to take into account the dark side of
Durope and !hat resulted from the &a@i experience$ Wagner !as !ay before
any of that came together.
- But he did publish a lot of polemics against 1e!sQ
. .nd in those polemics" he !as consistent !ith the trans-Duropean
continuum" and !ith the trans-.sian continuum" and !ith the trans-.frican
continuum" and !ith the &ative .merican continuum later. What !e%re really
talking about is ho! human beings relate to the 7ther.
- Well" !hat is it about the 1e!ish--
. --and Wagner has to be separated from egel. We tend to" in many cases"
take formuli@ations from egel and put those speculations on Wagner.
Wagner !as not perfect$ he !as looking at a changing /ermany and a
changing cultural dynamic" and" yes" his vie!point !as a racialist vie!point"
that%s for sure" but does that mean the dynamics of his vie!point necessarily
!ould result in this olocaustC ? think that%s a leap that is not necessarily a
correct reading" because if that%s the case !e can look at every--
- 1esus.
. --!e can look at 1esus" at every continuum !ith respect to that proposition.
- Would you describe what happened with the way the Nazis
appropriated Wagner, and Nietzche, as something like the German
version of the Southern strategy in America?
A Oh, I would most certainly make that connection. Not only that--and
this is the importance of Glastonbury, and Ouspensky and this whole
northern corridor of European mysticism--when we talk of the Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan, we're really talking of a trans-continental adaptation
of Trismegistus' concepts and psychologies. &o! Trismegistus" of course"
!as Dgyptian$ !e can call him a racist if !e !ant" in the same !ay !e can
call Wagner a racist" but ho! !as Trismegistus to foresee the Ku Klux KlanC
The Knights of the Ku Klux Klan are related to the evolution of this vie!point
of .ryan purity" and lightness representing purity" and blackness evil" and
later" !ith the social dar!inist psychology" as applied to humanity" !ith the
.frican peoples being given the lo!er positions. The KKK !ould come out of
those psychologies" and !ould base their aesthetics on the &orthern mystical
tenet components" applying them to social dynamics in .merica. Would I
make a connection between the Holocaust and the Southern experience? I
most certainly would, but the Southern experience came first, so I would
rather say it the other way around.
Ges" the =outhern experience !ould be the first of the modern era%s social
reality experiences" as applied to the political-psychological domain. The
World War ?? experience !ould be connected to the /lastonbury summation
components" but that experience !ould happen after slavery.
- .nd also !e could point out that in &a@ism there%s this big component of
occultism too" in the !ay itler and his circles used it to get around the
Christian morality structure.
. The Christian false morality structure.
- But still in a !ay thatQlike you say !ith Wagner" it is a leap to move from
Wagner the composer" !ho !as Aust getting in touch !ith composite reality
through this glue that !e%re starting to see of putting yourself" your o!n life"
into the--
. Center of the mix.
- --yeah" and having that be the engine of innovation.
. That !ould make the difference bet!een the great ?talian tradition" from
-onteverdi on. Wagner's decision to reject the formal components of the
trans-Italian musics would represent the fulfillment of the vertical
harmonic position. We usually say =travinsky represents the fulfillment of
the vertical rhythmic position in terms of complexity$ but in terms of
harmonic evolution" suddenly this one guy !ould fulfill the harmonic spectra
of the music. Rhythmically" his music !ould set the psychologies that !ould
be fulfilled by =travinsky$ !hether =travinsky is more or less complex is" in a
!ay" irrelevant. The genesis psychologies--that being opening doors to the
exploration and fulfillment of propositions--!e can look at Wagner%s music as
a point of definition for that.
- With Schoenberg, if we move into him as some part of a 1ewish
tradition as well as a German tradition.how do you explain the musical
mechanics that you've adopted yourself in your own music as much as
anything else, the twelve-tone thing, as being a manifestation of these
ethnic European, longstanding ethnic politics and identity politics that
you see incarnate in America's Southern strategy? Because Schoenberg
was reviled by the Nazis as decadent.
. *or me" the great 1e!ish 4trans4-diaspora has been profound and dynamic.
That experience !ould alter composite intellectual dynamics on the Duropean
continent$ and =choenberg for me" like =criabin for the great Russian
peoplesQby making the decision to reAect the vertical models" and establish
his o!n existential models--and by the !ay" my !ork is not t!elve-tone$ !hat
? took from =choenberg" !hat ? took from 1ohn Cage" !hat ? took from
Wagner and =appho" and from -onteverdi--!as the right to define the terms
of my music system" and build the kind of structural and conceptual models
that respected and reflected my experience$ that%s !hat ? took from them.
When ? came to understand that many of my heroes !ere my heroes because
they found something fresh" because they accepted their lives and found their
o!n !ay" and defined their o!n methodologies$ it !as at that point that ? said"
okay" ? got it" and ? !ant no! to start building my o!n models.
- ? !ant to get into that !hen !e get into your !ork" but first ? !ant to spend
some more time in this background stuff. Gou mentioned =travinsky" and it
seems to me that your influence has been a lot heavier on the =choenberg side
than the =travinsky side$ yet" as ? sa! in my book" ? sa! a lot of connections
bet!een you and the other /emini" =travinsky. =ince !e%re talking about these
strains of ethnic Duropean identity politics and so on" ho! do you relate to
that big debate early in F3th century" that .dorno generated" in terms of
!hether =choenberg or =travinsky !as the !ay to goC What have you taken
from =travinskyC
. ? have nothing but love for and identify totally !ith the great trans-Russian
tradition" period. .s far as ?%m concerned" the historians have not included
2rokofiev enough$ 2rokofiev is the .ndre! ill of that time period" and his
!ork has been thro!n out of the mix" because of politicsQbut ? support
2rokofiev.
session 4
. We%re talking about the reaction to Wagner" and !e%re talking about
composite trans-Duropean progressionalism. *or me" looking at the northern
end of the continent" at Russia" =criabin is the point of definition for holistic
synthesis$ and from that point" looking at 2rokofievQ? like 2rokofiev because
he covers the dark end. ? like =travinsky because he has that airy /emini
music" and that airy /emini complexity$ and ? like his correspondences"
especially in dance. .nd ? like his active rhythmic strategies" !hether !e%re
talking of Fireird or the Symphony of ,salms. But it !as =choenberg !ho
had the fresh vibration" and for me--and the reason ? consider myself post-
=choenbergian as !ell as post-Wagner" is that =choenberg !ould be a point of
definition for existential propositions" not Aust vertical propositions" !hich of
course are actually existential too" but !e tend to think of vertical as
fundamental. The concept of existential propositions !ould lend itself to
multi-hierarchical model-building" !hich is !hat ?%m interested in.
- Hertical being from the bottom up on roots" and linearQ
. Dxistential pitch sets.
- .nd !hy do you call pitch sets existential" because they define themselves
as a ro!" Aust the !ay diatonic music defines itselfCQ
. Ges. .nd that" for me" is a point of definition in model building. =o I agree
with Schoenberg when he stood up at the Firebird Suite in Berlin, I think
it was, and said, "I cast myself against the wind; I am alone, and I am
right!" 8laughs:
- That !as his response to =travinsky" huhC
. Ges.
- Because =travinsky !as all about the verticalC
. =travinsky !ould exploit the vertical to the extremes" but =choenberg
!ould recast the model" and that%s !hy he%s a restructuralist" and =travinsky is
a stylist.
- Eet%s move back for a secondQ
. But let me add this$ ? !ant to be clear !ith this" because this is very
important" !hat !e%re talking about. ? support the great trans-1e!ish
continuum" ? !ant that to be clear. The trans-1ewish continuum, in
European continental experiences, would provide the Other for
information dynamics in Europe. And would balance the thrust of the
great trans-Germanic musics.
- Eet%s move from there" then" in the !ay that the 1e!ish community came
about in .merica" in a couple of !ays. *irst of all" =choenberg came and
!orked in olly!ood and the films and all that" and lived there and taught
there. Then" in the course of this century" t!elve-tone music" serialism" post-
serialism" all found its home in academiaQ
. Qto become the 4ism4 in .mericaQ
- Qyeah" and it became sort of like a little reified ghetto" in the sense that it
dominated academia" and led into the position of being sort of an ivory-to!er
music that most people couldn%t relate to$ then !e had -ilton Babbit come
along and say 4? don%t care !hat you think"4 and all thisQso obviously" if you
take that on" that%s part of the problem that%s going to be attached to you as
baggage" Aust like !hen you take on the Duropean-.merican Aa@@ players" or
the Duropean composers" ho! all of that stuff has been problematic for you.
. Ges" but in fact ? have transposed that information" Aust as ?%ve transposed
all the information ?%ve dealt !ith" into my o!n terms. With regard to
serialism, in the hands of Stockhausen and Boulez, serialism would not be
more important than the results. In America, serialism would be more
important than the results. There's a big difference, and that difference is
the academic psychology.
- But can !e agree that earlier in our first session you made a distinction
bet!een your problem" in your !ork" and the !orld%s problem !ith you$ in
other !ords" it%s not your problem" it%s theirs.
. ?t%s theirs" but also it%s the .frican .merican community%s problem as !ell"
!hen they look at my music" and can%t recogni@e its legitimacy as a
component of my experience as an .frican .merican" and as my right as an
.frican .merican to build a music that respects my vibrational experiences"
my conceptual experiences" and my intuitive experiences. The African
American political quadrant has been as dogmatic as the trans-European
component with regard to my work.
- =o Aust to kind of clarify the contours of the baggage" thenQyou%ve made
your decision to pursue composite reality$ you%ve found your !ay through the
dark side and the light side" the evil and the good in terms of ho! you relate to
themQbut one part of the problem has been your embrace of Duropean
.merican cool Aa@@ musicians" and of the composer tradition in Durope" and
your embrace of =choenberg in the sense that =choenberg%s music became this
academic ghetto in .merica" and only recently has that been changedQ
. But my connection to =choenberg had nothing to do !ith that. ? !as never
dra!n to the academic composers$ ? !as dra!n to music" and if something
pushed my button" then ? sought to investigate that. ?nvariably" ? !ould
discover that in most cases many of the people ? !as dra!n to !ere state of
the state people" !ho !ere doing the music !ith the 4ism4 in the secondary
position.
- Eet%s say also that the other colleagues you mentioned last time are in this
!ith you. -uhal played the piano !ith that in the mix" for instance$ and the
records you%ve made !ith Eeroy 1enkins and Eeo =mithQit%s all in the mix.
. *or me" !hat you%re saying" !hich is correct" is that by the term composite
information" composite reality" ? most certainly have been influenced by the
great .merican blues tradition" by the great .merican folk tradition" by the
great trans-.frican .merican musics. -y music system !as not built in
reAecton to anything$ it !as built as an affirmation of my experiences. .nd yet
? !as not interested as a young man" nor am ? interested no!" in adopting an
intellectual cloak that%s not mine" nor an idiomatic perspective that%s not mine"
that%s outside of !hat is real for me.
- 1ust to also kind of further map the terrain here" can !e also say that as !e
talk about 7ld World history spanning over thousands of years" and including
a !hole lot of concourse bet!een .frican cultures from the time of Dgypt on"
and Duropean cultures" and .rab culturesQand only recently" in the last
couple of centuries" have they reconvened" in .merica" under this rubric"
because of slavery" of !hite and black" so that all of the !hite tribes that had
been feuding--the 4barbarians4 of /ermany and ?reland and so on" as opposed
to the civili@ed people of Dngland" ?taly" and *rance" and the 1e!s" all come
together in their past feuds as kind of an undercurrentQbut basically they
have this ne! umbrella in .merica called 4!hiteness4 and that%s !hen it gets
complex in terms of !hat !e see in Eouis *arrakhan" talking about--you
mentioned in the last session that even though you !ouldn%t agree !ith him in
any kind of grossly racist statements" still" you did see the reality of the 1e!ish
presence in the .merican music scene as being part of the !hiteness
spectrum.
. But let me reflect on this" because !hen ? think of 1e!ish-.merican
political dynamics in this time period" ? don%t separate that from composite
Duropean-.merican information and political dynamics. ?n seeking to
understand that phenomenon" ? also include the .frican .merican middle and
upper class" because ? don%t have any choice. But there is a distinction" that
being that Duropean .mericans" 1e!ish .mericans" /erman .mericans"
*rench .mericans" are connected !ith the upper strata of political dynamics
and economic dynamics. =o if !e find ourselves no! talking about
continental experiences in the Jnited =tates moving into the modern era" the
divisions ? !ould make at that point !ould be the Duropean .merican
community in opposition to the non-Duropean elements of the culture"
especially .frican .mericans. But also" if our conversation is to be
comprehensive" the effect of that continuum as it relates to the &ative
.merican" .sian .merican and .frican .merican communities" to the
homosexual communityQall of those communities" on one level or another"
can be looked at as 4the 7ther4 in relationship to the ne! hierarchy based on
the .merican experience.
- o! do you fit the emergence in the commercial arena of this genre kno!n
as 4!orld music"4 then" ho! from the mid-93s on the music industry really
became globali@ed" and !e started seeing a lot of--!ell" the emergence of the
genre itself as a marketing genre.
. Before responding to that +uestion" there%s still another contingent
progression of the Duropean experience that !e haven%t talked about" !hich is
important" because if =choenberg represented a point of definition for
existential model-building" there is still the need to mention the !ork of 1ohn
Cage as another restructural component that !ould re-solidify the great trans-
Duropean musics" in the sense of establishing restructural propositions. Cage
is at that same point of =choenberg$ =choenberg comes to .merica" Cage
studies !ith him in Eos .ngeles" and the dynamic implications of Cage%s
music !ould challenge the propositional disposition of the Duropean
.merican musics in a !ay that !ould be very different from =choenberg. This
!ould be another attempt to erect a composite aesthetic based on existential
propositions that !ould not be linear.
- 7ne thing ?%ve !ondered about over the years is the !ay you%ve talked
about trans-.sian musics. Can !e say that 1ohn Cage is an entry point for you
into trans-.sian influences" because he !as obviously influenced by themC
. ? !ould say yes" but the period of the '(;3s !as such a dynamic period.
=uddenly ?%m learning about Ravi =hankar" .li-.kbar Khan" exposing me to
the great .sian musics. ? had the experience of being in the army in =eoul"
Korea" and an opportunity to study Korean music. When ? came back to
.merica ? had )3 or 03 records of Korean music.
- ?%ve been getting into 1in hi Kim lately" because she%s a composer trying to
synthesi@e the West and Korea. This Korean traditional music isQ
. ?t%s outI
- Qslo!" metaphysical.
. .nd the folk music is totally incredible.
- ere !e have a @one that !as defined by occupation" !ar" and the clashing
of cultures through that.
. Thank you.
- 1ust like in Berlin.
. &ot to mention" more and more" because ? !as fortunate enough to come of
age in the %;3s" there !as a !hole category of recordings ? !ould be exposed
toQfor instance" !hen ? got out of the army" ? found myself studying gaga1u"
the 1apanese court music. Eooking more and more into the trans-.sian musics
to try and understand !hat that !as" and of course ?%m still a student of them.
There%s much more for me to learn.
- ? remember from your 2omposition !otes that there !ere some definite
pieces that you !rote in response to that information--but probably not so
many" rightC
. . small part of my !ork compared to the experiences ?%ve had !ith trans-
.frica and trans-Durope" and trans-?ndian. ?%d like to hope that over the next
time cycle" if ?%m fortunate enough to be able to live another F3-)3 years" to
better experience and assimilate the trans-=panish music" the trans-.sian
musics" because ?%m interested in earth. ? came to understand that in the %;3s"
that earth !as +uite a place.
- ?nteresting you mention ?ndia. When !e talk about this long deep history of
migrations and so on. The first place the Aryans got to when they came
down from the Caucasus Mountains from the north around 3000 BC or
so, was India. So you see a lot of connections between Medieval European
modal music systems and Indian raga systems.
. Thank you.
- =o in my mind it%s a little different than trans-.sian !hen you think of
Chinese" 1apanese" Korean" because they basically stayed put there for a long
time and built that thing up. o! do you account for the fact that you haven%t
really gotten so much into trans-Eatin .merican music. 1ust something you
haven%t gotten to yetC
. 1ust something that ? haven%t been able to move deeper into because of the
la! of circumstances. ? !as doing !hat ? !as doing" trying to do my best" and
the !ay ?%ve chosen to take has presented me !ith a kind of struggle in !hich
? still find myself trying to penetrate deeper into areas that ? haven%t been able
to learn about. .s a professional student of music" ?%m trying to gro! and
learn as much as ? can. But the great ispanic musics are Aust something ?
haven%t been able to learn about in a !ay that ? need to$ it%s on the agenda of
things ? need to learn about.
- .nd in the context of the !ay !e%ve been talking too" !e might mention
the big .frican -oorish influence in =pain that redefined this Duropean
culture by .fricani@ing it in a certain !ay$ and that comes to .merica and
merges !ith the native cultures in a !ay that !as much more intimate and
integrated together than !as !hat happened in &orth .merica.
. Eet%s go back to the purges. That period of the ?n+uisition !as a component
in 2ortugal and =pain mainly because of the interracial components taking
place. ?n that period" there !ere many .frican creative people !ho had
assumed positions of prominence. The ?n+uisition !as an edict attempting to
respond to the liberated feminine psychology$ !omen !ere !iped out all over
the continent. . guy !ould come in from the Church" and !omen !ho !ere
4misbehaving"4 or might have been misbehaving" or might misbehave
tomorro! !ould be !iped out. .nd that !as happening all over Durope as
!ell as =pain" and in .merica. The ?n+uisition !as a mechanism to remove
the opposition" and the opposition !ould be the free-thinking !oman and non-
Duropeans" especially the .fricans" !ho had a profound effect on the
solidification of the modern Duropean classical musics" but that%s not talked
about.
- Then !e had -iles come out !ith S1etches of Spain in the %,3s" !hich !as
a nice statement about that direction.
. Right.
- Eet%s talk about your /host Trance music for a second then.
. Before going there" ?%d rather talk about the genesis of the system and ho!
that has evolved" because the /host Trance music is Aust a component of that.
- Before !e do that" thenQoff tape you also started talking about your !ork
in terms of the s+uare and the circle and triangle" and the opera and !hat
you%ve managed to integrate and !hat you haven%t yetQso ? !ant to get to that
in a second. But no! that !e%ve kind of mapped out this terrain of the 7ld
World politics moving to the &e! World and reconfiguring there in the !ay
that you had to deal !ith in the F3th century" let%s pick up !here !e left off
before taping on the subAect of academia. ?t !as about the mid-93s that !e
started seeing the shift in the music to a neoconservative" retro reconfiguring
of Aa@@ that took place and became so prominent" to the point of the Aa@@-
industrial net!orks !e see today" and the parameters defined by the Eincoln
Center and so on. ?t !as in that period !hen you first started !orking at -ills
College as an academic. Gou mentioned that as you%ve started to !ork in
academia" some of your most problematic students !ere the .frican .merican
ones because they had this anti-intellectual association of learning and
kno!ledge !ith Duropean norms that fell outside the prescribed realm of
blackness in the culture.
. The prescribed realm of idiomatic +ualities" all of !hich goes back again to
the period bet!een '993 and '(F3. We%re talking about the slave master
looking at the Dmancipation 2roclamation to set the image logic parameters of
.frican .mericans in terms of ho! they !ould be perceived. .t the same
time" !ith the ne! technologies developing--i.e." the movie industry--Birth of
a !ation !ould be a vehicle to posit idiomatic +ualities as regarding the image
characteristics of the .frican .merican. The recording industry !ould create
4race records"4 separating .frican .mericans from composite realities"
creating the special circle for the black community. =ome !ould say--? think
-ax Roach said it beautifully--that the music !as able to evolve because
nobody !ould accept .frican .mericans in the composite space" so the black
community" turning in to itself" had no choice but to do the business of living
and creating !ithin this sanctioned sphere. .nd yet" on the one hand" the
positive implications of that experience !ould bring forth a !hole ne!
category of invention dynamics and exploratory musics$ on the other hand" the
principle axiom of the modern era !ould involve an overseer +uality by the
Duropean .merican community" !hich !ould determine !hat components of
the .frican .merican experience could be vie!ed as valuable" and on !hat
terms that overseer position !ould also define the vibrational synergies of the
black community. .nd in every case" their definitions !ould al!ays function
!ith respect to !hat !as in the interests of the Duropean .merican
community.
- .nd you mentioned 1ohn ammond as an arrogant motherfucker.
. Well" ? mean" you kno!" this !as the guy !ho !ould later be a part of
Columbia Records$ he !as the guy !ho provided the final components that
helped Columbia to be a great company" and get it off the ground.
- But you made a distinction bet!een .lan Eomax and someone like
ammondQ
. Eomax didn%t form any companies" or any alliances !ith companies to
profit from and define !hat is good and !hat is bad in the music" he !as
trying to capture and document the music because of his love for .merican
culture" and for the music.
- /etting back to the +uestion about 4!orld music"4 ? noticed !hen ? !ent to
/ermany that !hen ? listened to all the *-2 5a Berlin record label>
recordings" ? thought ? !as going to be studying this bid for Duropean</erman
assertion of identity against .merican Aa@@" because that%s kind of ho! they
emerged.
. But you found that they !ere actually separate from one another.
- Geah" that too" but ? found something else. ?t%s interesting to me that you%ve
been talking about this period of post-Dmancipation and going back to it a lot
and identifying !ith it and all" because the music that came over in the %;3s to
Durope !as exactly the music that the /ermans used to go off into their o!n
reconnection !ith original roots" in the free Aa@@ movement there that they call
the Dman@ipation.
. ?s that rightC
- Geah" in /erman. Because for the first time they !ere no longer Aust
imitating .mericans" but coming up !ith something of their o!n. But"
paradoxically" they got that through the .frican .merican influx" !hich !as
itself a gesture of coming into something of your o!n.
. But this has been" !hat you%re describing" in my opinion" one of the
axiomatic tenets of the modern era as far as the imposition of +uadrant
experiences and ethnic experiences. ?n that context" .frican .merican
creativity is used as a stimulant for .merican culture$ for the Duropeans" it
!ould also function as a triggering mechanism that !ould provide vibrational
stimulus through the parameter of the 7ther" to reactivate dynamic Duropean
creativity and curiosity. .nd !e%re talking about the '993s !hen that started.
- What ? !as going to say is that a lot of these improvisers !hom you%ve
played a lot !ith in Durope are having these collaborations !ith traditional
-ongolian musicians" traditional 1apanese musicians--not second-generation
ersat@ Aa@@ musicians" but traditional tai1o drummers and sha1uhachi flute
players" traditional Tuvan throat singersQ
. .nd it makes sense" because the concept of composite reality in this time
period is a concept that has to take into account !here !e%re at
technologically. We%re at a point !here !e can turn on the television" !e can
read about the tragedy of the Russian sub that sank and see it immediately" !e
can see !hat is happening in ?ndonesia" China. .ny healthy vie!point" in my
opinion" is one that takes into account the state of the state" in terms of !hat
the possibilities are in a given time +uadrant. *or the Duropean improvisers to
find themselves attracted to global creative music makes sense.
.nd yet" a guy like me--someho!" ?%m hard to figure out" for the Aa@@ people.
Because ?%ve been interested in the !orld" Aust like Dvan 2arker and #erek
Bailey" but there%s no slot in the ethnic +uadrant of !hat is no! called black
music for an .frican .merican person !ho is interested in composite reality.
.t the same time" sho! me a moment in your day--you hear this music
5referring to background restaurant radio>--anything could be on that radio. ?t
could be ?ndian music$ !e could be driving in a car" a guy pulls up next to us"
it could be Turkish music. Gou turn on the TH" you don%t kno! !hat%s going
to come on. #ifferent kinds of information of a global nature is the norm in
this period$ to not respond to it is interesting or not interesting" but it is
certainly a different concept of reality based on !hat the fundamental
concepts used to be. The fundamental concepts are that people are naturally
attracted by something that%s different. When the Duropeans came into .frica"
the .fricans !ere interested in the Duropeans as much as the Duropeans !ere
interested in them. When the Duropeans came into China" they !ere totally
curious on both sides of the meeting. That has been an axiomatic +uality about
our species$ people are interested in the experiences happening in their space.
/oing back to '993" at the beginning of the modern era" the information
spectrum had already started changing. Remember, not only did the early
British voyagers who went into Africa bring back Africans when they
came back, they also brought back native Americans from here. In the
beginning, the British celebrated them, and everybody started dressing
up like Indians, smoking tobacco, getting into corn. Later, as
Shakespeare would document, it became necessary to look at them as
savages, animals. Why? The political component entered the space, and
the Europeans started to value the actual land; and of course the native
Americans weren't even into that concept, so they were at a disadvantage.
The .fricans !ould not experience the brunt of the ne! technology" as far as
firepo!er" tank po!er" but the native .merican community !ould. Talk about
olocaust. We don%t like to compare !hat !e call the olocaust to other
movements and experiences in history" and there%s a reason$ if !e did" then the
olocaust !ould have to be placed in the context of human experiences" and
in that context !hat happened to the native .merican community !as
outrageous" on a scale !e don%t even kno! ho! to integrate" !e don%t even
have the numbers for.
This is also true for the slave trade$ !e don%t have the actual numbers to
compare !ith !hat !e call the 1e!ish olocaust" but the experiences and the
documentation suggests that it !as so far out--genocide against the native
.mericans on a level !here by '993" the emergence of the modern era" they
had basically lost all of their culture. What they called the /host #ance
movement !as a reconfiguration of all the different groups" each one trying to
remember some part of their culture" t!o generations removed from the
genocide. Trying to remember" 4oh yeah" !e did do this"4 so they made a
composite. Because the genocide !as so profound that they lost everything.
=o" ? mean you kno!--hooray for life.
- ave you ever" in your strategies as a player" been dra!n to seek out
collaborations !ith traditional 1apanese musicians" traditional ?ndian"
!hatever player from a tradition that interested youC
. ? have been interested since the mid-;3s in trying to explore composite
possibilites. When ? !as in Korea" ? played !ith the Korean folk musicians.
When ? !ent to 1apan" for the little moment ? !as there ? studied !ith the
1apanese musicians. ? think the Aa@@ guys there hated me$ they !ere dedicated
to the blues" and Braxton doesn%t play the blues correctly. But to respond to
your +uestion" ?%ve al!ays" as a component of my aesthetic" looked for kindred
spirits" but ? have not tried to approach the idea of kindred spirits in a !ay that
did not feel healthy. -y hope in the future is to have more experiences !ith
human beings of different experiences" because there%s al!ays something
fresh to learn from people thinking in a different !ay. -y first opportunity to
play !ith &ative .mericans" ironically" occurred at Wesleyan" !hen ? used to
go there to follo! 1ohn Cage like a little puppy dog. ? played !ith Richard
Teitelbaum here" and did a duo !ith an ?ndian chief.
- That brings me to the next +uestion. =ince the mid-93s spread of the music
industry globally" 4!orld music4 as a marketing genre has emerged. There%ve
been many ethnomusicological papers !ritten about ho! all this influx of ne!
voices onto the !orld market" from .rab and ?ndian and .frican traditional
and pop sources" is coming into that scene through the !orld music genre" but
critics have sometimes seen them as sellout gestures to the business" basically
fodder for marketplace music--!hich is the kind of criticism you%ve often
leveled against the Aa@@-industrial complex6 taking a sort of traditional
expression and making it conform to the pop scene. Eike 2aul =imon" for
example. e%s taken heat for the dynamic of his relationship !ith =outh
.frican and Bra@ilian musicians as being exploitive in some !ay.
. But in fact he is functioning in a !ay that%s consistent !ith the modern era.
.nd the modern era says that everything has to be redefined from a
Durocentric perspective" and it%s at that point !here it gains value. &o! let me
be clear about this. ? have no problems !ith !hatever 2aul =imon decides to
do$ ?%m a 2aul =imon fan" so -r. =imon%s not !hat ?%m really talking about.
What ?%m talking about is the position of Duropean .mericans in this time
period" and their ability to appropriate !hatever they !ant and be able to
define it in !hatever !ay they !ant to define it. .t the same time" if ? go and
try to have an experience and seek to define it" ?%m looked at like ?%m a fool.
2lus" the same opportunities are never available in reverse" like for the .frican
musicians to be able to use 2aul =imon" or musicians from that ilk" and have
their !ork respected based on its fulfilling some aspect of their experience.
-y problem is not !ith 2aul =imon. .s far as ?%m concerned" he understood in
his o!n !ay the dynamic implications of globali@ation" and the fact that the
creative person has to" if he !ants to keep gro!ing" find fresh parameters. &ot
only that6 Aust as ? hope to have more experiences !ith the great Eatin musics"
the great .sian musics" it !ould make sense for 2aul =imon to look to!ards
.frica" and Eatin .merica. ? have no problem !ith that. My problem is that
the Metropolitan Opera won't give me a performance, because somehow
it's outside the natural order for me to write an opera; but it's not out of
the natural order for Andr Previn to go and do a trio record of My Fair
Lady tunes with Leroy Vinnegar and Shelley Manne, and have everybody
say, "wow, this is great jazz, it's jazzy jazz;" then he can go and conduct
and do his opera.
- ?s that !hat you meant !hen you said you%ve been careful not to get into
situations !here collaborating !ith a kindred spirit might be unhealthyC
you%ve avoided situations like thatC
. Well" it%s not for me to have any kind of stipulations about !hat another
person should do !ith their creativity. ?n fact" the more ? explore myself" the
more ? find that the axiom tenet that says it%s impossible to Audge anybody but
myself is the only position that makes sense to me. The problem" as far as the
spectrum of experiences and humanityQthe problem is that the modern era
defines .frican .mericans as a people that can only function in an idiomatic
+uadrant" one that contains an ethnic mechanism that has not been understood.
=o !hen ? use the phrase 4=outhern strategy"4 ?%m talking of a political
coalition that is functioning under a particular psychology" and that
psychology is connected to !hat the modern era is" and it manipulates
+uadrants" manipulates !ho is going to be successful and under !hat terms--
and invariably that +uadrant is concerned !ith the elevation of trans-
Durocentric definitions and value systems and political proclivities.
- So we get a picture of the music industry as being totally willing to
welcome the whole world in, only on its capitalist terms.
. .nd to undermine !orld culture dictates$ to undermine the great 1apanese
musics" the great Turkish musics" because most Duropean and Duropean
.merican peoples are brought up to vie! themselves as superior to non-
Duropeans. ?t%s sometimes very subtle" but the superior psychology is at the
heart" in my opinion" of the Duropean gambit to!ard incorporating
information.
- Gou kno!" !hen ?%ve thought about this" ?%ve seen it in terms of the
superiority complex of the ne! over the old" because !hen you go back as far
as the origins of the humans here today" as far as !e can tell they started in
.frica and moved north from thereQ
. Ges. .fricans are full of ethnic tensions based on one group feeling superior
to the other group$ that%s still not ironed out.
- .nd one of the reasons for that" if you think about genetics" might have
something to do !ith the fact that they%ve been kicking around on that
continent the longest" and have developed the most diverse gene pool because
of that long time. ?f you compare them !ith Duropeans" the latter have a much
narro!er range of genetic diversity than do .fricans.
. That%s interesting" ? didn%t kno! that.
- So what I'm thinking is you get this group of Africans who move north.
Because of Darwin's selection process, what happens is your skin gets
lighter simply because the northern climates dictate that for survival.
. &ot to mention the fusion of so-called miscegenation.
- Dven before that" if you think of dark-skinned .fricans leaving the
continent and moving northQthe !ay the climate !orks is that the people
!ith less melanin in their skin survive better" because they don%t need it as a
sunblock" and they do need all the sun they can get for Hitamin #. =o all the
light-skinned tendencies !ould come to the fore. So as far as anybody can
tell scientifically, white people are just mutated Africans.
. ? firmly believe in the unity of humanity" and ? came to that belief through
myself" looking at myself. ? came to understand that my attraction to
=choenberg !as as natural as my attraction to *rankie Eymon$ thus !ould my
struggle in the black community commence" because ? !as not about to give
up Bill aley and the Comets.
- .nd !hen you see something in the black community that responds to this
idea of !hiteness in an exclusionary sense" in the same sense that they do on
the continent !ith each other because of the genetic differences" the internal
feuding and so onQ you get a mythology such as DliAah -uhammad%s" !ith
the mad scientist #r. Gakub and his mutant race of !hites6 you get a
demoni@ation of your brother .fricans !ho !ent up north and got light.
. We%re laughing at *arrakhan%s mythology" but !e%re on the threshold of
seeing a ne! breed of people genetically engineered" !ho !ill be the
fulfillment of our strengths" !ith the possibility of being stronger through
genetic manipulation. These concepts are interesting concepts" ? don%t dismiss
any of them$ but !hatever" ? still see the unity of opposites. Remember" even
in *arrakhan%s mythology" the affinity destinies of opposites still come
together.
- Because he loves to play -endelssohn on his violin.
. e can%t help it. 7pposites attract" that%s another mystical la!.
M So the superiority complex that we've seen in the human race, which
we've talked about in terms of Europeans over the rest of the world.
A Exists in every group.
M .but also, on this global scale, it seems like it's a superiority gambit of
the new people over the old people, because they went north and were
able to survive in these icy conditions, which honed skills that eventually
led to the atom bomb. aving to deal !ith certain challenges by the
environment" they developed skills they never !ould have had to develop in
.frica" so then they look back on their original home sort of like !e look back
on our home to!ns as the parochial little place !e came from before making
our big splash in the big !orld.
. And Christianity is the fulfillment of those propositions--but the
Islamic world understood that very quickly and immediately erected
their own godhead.
M Then if we take it down a notch to Western European civilization over
the last 2000 years.if you look at the whole of Eurasia, there was a
continuous migration west. By the time Europe solidified as a culture, it
was a polyglot mix of a whole lot of influences in from the East, and also
from Africa. So they get that same kind of superiority over the old
peoples that Americans have about their various "old worlds" too.
. The classical /reek period !as the first of the filters" and the next filter
!ould be the experience of colonial exploration. The colonial experience
!ould start to bring back !orld culture information to the Duropeans"
including reconnecting the Duropeans !ith the classical /reek information" as
filtered through ?slam" and the great Turkish" 7ttoman Dmpire period.
- .nd then !hen you get the .ge of Dxploration" moving into .merica"
again you get this movement !est by a lot of different people leaving old
!orlds behind" you get the superiority .mericans feel over those old !orlds--
over Durope" and over the other places. =o thinking about progressionalism"
and evolution" as concepts" ? tend to think of this superiority complex that
emerges in the human race as being as much a variation on the theme of 4kill
the father4 as on 4kill the other.4 But no!" !hat you%re talking about in the
terms of composite reality" and the unity that%s necessary" is that !e%re all
continually being reborn on the planet" and there%s no room for that
psychology in the ideal state of affairs.
. This planet has been mapped in terms of continental experiences" there%s
no!here else to go" except into space. .nd you can believe that once !e
discover another species in space" suddenly it !ill be human beings versus the
aliens.
- This little riff of the young versus the old gets me to my next +uestion. ?%ve
noticed that since you%ve been an academic" especially at Wesleyan" you%ve
made a lot of records and done a lot of bands !ith students. ?t%s interesting to
me that it%s actually !orked !ell musically$ and it is part of a tradition of
elders mentoring the young" both in the music and in academia. o! has your
career" in terms of your body of !ork" fared !ith thatC #o you see it as sort of
the optimum strategy that you could take in the circumstance that you find
yourself inC
. /ood +uestion" -ike effley" good +uestion. .t this point in my life" ? have
arrived at a Auncture that%s very interesting. That Auncture is that" as much as ?
enAoy exploring traditional repertoire" and as much as ? enAoy" on occasion"
collaborating !ith colleagues or a particular person" at this point" !hat ? really
need to advance my !ork is a group of people !ho kno! the system of my
music" not Aust someone !ho can learn a head" and then !e improvise. =o
academia for me has been a !ay to meet young people !ho are interested in
my !ork" !hom ? then teach my system to. That !ay" ? can advance my !ork
in a !ay that is more complex outside of academia. .lso" at ,, years old" !ith
the experiences that ?%ve had" and !ith the amount of material that ? have in
my music system" ? need people !ho can start to build on the connecting
concepts of the system. =o academia has been a !ay to find kindred spirits"
young men and some young !omen" !ho are interested in going through
some aspect of my !ork in a !ay that my colleagues" the guys ?%ve gro!n up
!ith" couldn%t possibly entertain" because they have their o!n !ay of !orking.
.t this point" my real interests--except" of course" for the solo musics" !hich ?
do alone--can only be carried out !ith ensembles of various si@es that can
achieve an experience through the system of my music. That%s been the
positive part of being an academic.
about. Dven o!ard *reeman and ?" !e had our o!n little publication" called
The 1oke Book. Dvery !eek !e%d publish around ,3 of these books" sell about
three of them" thro! the rest a!ay" then start the next press run. =o actually"
?%m used to not making money from my proAects$ ? didn%t even reali@e the
connectionI
.nd there%s another thing. ?n Washington =+uare 2ark" !hich !as like in the
heart of the =outh =ide" stretching from ))rd =treet in yde 2ark and going all
the !ay to ,(th =t. Gou could go to sleep in the park !ithout !orrying that
somebody !as going to rob you or harm you. &o! that%s a very different
dynamic than !hat !e have as !e get ready to move into the third
millennium. What am ? sayingC There !as not a natural built-in fear of one
another bet!een .frican .mericans !hen ? !as gro!ing up. .nd there !as a
synergy in the community" !ith its radical factions" that at the same time !as
vibrant in a dynamic intellectual tradition.
=o !hen ? gre! up" ? kind of felt like ? could be !hatever ? !as able to !ork
to!ard" and that if ? applied myself" ? could do my best. Eater !hen ? fell in
love !ith Karlhein@ =tockhausen" it never occurred to me that ? couldn%t !ant
to build on =tockhausen" and do my operas and my pieces for four orchestras$
=tockhausen did it" ? !anted to be able to do it. e%s one of my heroes. ? didn%t
kno! ? !as crossing into +uadrant spaces that !ere outside !hat !as
acceptable for me" not only by the Duropean .merican community" but by the
ne!ly modulated .frican .merican community of the %;3s. Black 2o!er"
!hich in the beginning started !ith a broader agenda" !ould in fact by '(;;
be exhibiting a reductionism that more and more !ould form along the lines
of /arvey versus #uBois.
- #uBois representing an international cosmopolitanism and /arvey an
ethnocentric kind of reaction against !hite oppressionCQ
. =tarting !ith =tokely Carmichael" moving into . Rap Bro!n" moving into
.miri Baraka" and then the Black 2anthers. -ore and more" an intellectual
position !ould be advanced" but rather than butttressed !ith intellectual
arguments" it !ould be instead buttressed by 4if you don%t accept this" your
butt%s going to be kicked64 toughie-tough arguments. And that toughy-tough
psychology would parlay through Gil-Scott Heron's beautifully
intellectual dynamic, creative work, into the Last Poets, whose hopeful
inspired work would translate finally into Niggaz with Attitude, toughy-
tough psychologies that would merge into post-Baraka Black Panther
psychological experiences, and Huey Newton--two positions that could be
expressed more or less as "Either/Or:" either you're with me or against
me, everything is politics, everything is everything.no more room for
gradations; follow my agenda or you're the enemy.
- Eet%s look at it this !ay. We have to reali@e too that .nthony Braxton has
established himself as a presence and a voice" and has not been totally a cry in
the !ilderness. ? mean" you%re one of the people !ho%ve been !ritten about the
most--maybe you think !ritten about in a distorted !ay--but also you%re one
of the people !ho have been paid most attention to along the !ay" even
though your vie!point hasn%t represented the larger cultural agenda or
anything.
. .nd my position is a position of impotence. ? control nothing.
- But since !e%re focusing on your story and your !ork" maybe this !ould be
the entry point into ho! you did relate as a composer and musician and even
musical philosopher" system-builder and so on" to that .frican .merican
component.
. 7kay" so !e go back to '993 again. Because to better understand my
position in trans-.frican progressionalism" !e again have to pick up !hat !as
sacrificed in the modern era. What !as sacrificed !as Will -arion Cook"
*rank 1ohnson" 1im Durope" *lorence 2rice" William /rant =till6 the
intellectual component of the music as made real through the experiences ofQ
1ames Durope !as conceiving of musical concepts and logics that integrated
notation and improvisation. &o! remember" earlier you asked me !hat my
connection !ith ildegard von Bingen" Wagner" and =choenberg !as" and ?
talked about the fact that they evolved holistic composite strategies$ but their
strategies !ere solidifications !ithin one +uadrant" because of the dynamic
implications of the decisions that !ould underlie Christianity" and the !hole
idea of the holy man !ho doesn%t have sex.
- .nd !omanQ
. Ges" and the separation and non-recognition of the mystic /oddess$ those
!ere important sacrifices that the Christians made" and they%re still dealing
!ith them in this time period.
- #oes this tie into your reaction to the figure of -arie Eaveau as a mixed-
race voodoo priestess in &e! 7rleans !ho !as so important in that culture in
terms of the /oddessC
. Ges" but ? !ould also say that it has become fashionable to talk of Congo
=+uare as an experience !here the transplanted .fricans !ho became .frican
.mericans !ould have a free space moment of information dynamics. Those
experiences !ere important" to be sure" but ? !ould only add that the first and
second /reat .!akenings" in the &orthern states" !ould also be a component
that !ould contain the same kinds of experiences. Remember" the Duropean
transplanted settlers !ere al!ays frightened !henever the slaves got together
!ithout supervision" especially if they had a drum" especially if they had the
opportunity to start making their music. ?t !as because of that fear that finally
they started trying to bring the slaves into the church" under the banner of
civili@ing the heathens" in hopes of reducing the intensity of their experiences"
because to the Duropean settlers" these guys looked like !ild savages" and
they could not be trusted after having these +uadrant-communal cycles$ so it
!ould be at that point that the first /reat .!akening !ould come together"
not Aust for .frican .mericans" but as a point of definition for the 2entecostal
.merican 2rotestant groupings that !ould emphasi@e self-reali@ation and
emotion. Before that" in Durope" if you !ere in church and started shaking
your butt to Wagner" they !ould kick your ass. .nd the 2ilgrims and the
2uritans" they !ere some toughy-tough guys6 enAoy the music" but don%t have
a mind-body connection" they could not handle that. .nd that of course is all
they !ere seeing !ith the .frican slaves. =o the *irst .!akening--!hich" by
the !ay" if it%s on target" it should be coming back in the next '3 or F3 years to
.merica 5laughs>.
- Geah" because I'm thinking of the First and Second Great Awakenings
as being in large part really influenced by the emotionalism of non-
Christian peoples.
A Thank you. The Africans, and the Native Americans.
M Yeah, both were very important. Richard Allen was the founder of the
first Pentecostal church, a black guy in Los Angeles, and poor whites
were in on it from the beginning. It was the poor whites, not the others.
A Yes, yes.
M And when you talk about the Southern strategy, you're talking about a
culture that is two or three generations down the road from this poor
white experience that got Africanized in a real way.
. ?n the same !ay that !e talk of this connection" !hich your !ork has
advanced on the deepest possible level" bet!een .frica and /ermany. .gain"
!e%re talking about peoples !ho are not contained by modern-era
psychologies. We tend to use that term 4modern era4 in referring to .merica$
!hen ? say modern era psychology in this context" ?%m talking about after the
reaction to Christianity" moving into continental Duropean experiences" !ith
the /erman people having a profound reaction to Christianity and the Roman
Dmpire" because they !ere dealing !ith a more composite experience than
!hat Christianity !ould usher in. =o there are conAunctions here as far as the
preceding steps into !hat ?%ll call for .merica the modern era" and !hat ?%ll
call for Durope the -iddle .ges" and Dnlightenment periods.
=o !e%re coming back to the composer%s tradition" !hich is interesting. *rank
1ohnson" unifying abstract and physicalness" music and dance.
- Eet me ask you this6 !hen exactly did you get exposed to these .frican
.merican composersC
. *rank 1ohnson only once ? got into academia" at -ills College 5mid-'(93s>.
Will -arion Cook" William /rant =till" ? !as a!are of them in the %;3s.
- =o you kind of started out !ith an exposure" first" to cool !hite Aa@@" 2aul
#esmond and all that$ you got into bebop a little laterQ
. ? started out !ith doo-!op$ in my neighborhood" everybody had their o!n
doo-!op group. *rankie Eymon" the #ell Hikings" the #ells" the Coasters"
moving to =mokey Robinson$ Bill aley and the Comets !ere very important
to me$ .hmad 1amal" and then moving into #ave Brubeck" !hen ? became
very interested in !hat !as called cool Aa@@. ? had heard Charlie 2arker%s
music at the same time" but it frightened me$ it !as ra!er. #esmond and
Brubeck !ere more restrained" vibrationally" in a !ay that ? could hear$ it !as
closer to .hmad 1amal%s structure space initiatives.
- #oes this have something to do !ith your gro!ing up apart from the black
psychology ofQ? mean" !hy !ould Charlie 2arker seem so ra!" because he
!as like the &e! Gork kind of expression or somethingC
. &o" it !as Aust more than !hat ? could handle. #esmond !as more
melodicQ
- #oes this also go for people like Thelonious -onk and everyone else
connected !ith the &e! Gork bebop sceneC
. -y stepfather brought home -iles #avis !ith 1ohn Coltrane" 4Round %Bout
-idnight"4 and 4Cookin%4" !ith the -iles #avis Kuintet. ? !ould hear that
music at about the same time ? heard Brubeck. I remember saying very
clearly, "this 1ohn Coltrane fellow, he's not playing the music. This is not
jazz, it doesn't swing!" laughs] I was convinced! Why can't he play more
like Desmond? I don't get it.
- =o you gre! up in the =outh =ide" !ith no !hite people around you$ but
you also had icons on the TH setQ
. 2lus" my father and my stepfather !ere both light-complexioned .frican
.mericans" and ? did have an inferiority complex as a young man" being the
darkest in my family$ and .frican .mericans are most cruel" Aust in their o!n
+uadrant !ith each other" !hen the +uestion of skin complexion comes up.
- =o this !as maybe a young boy and teenager%s reach for something that
seemed more refinedCQ
. Ges" but it !as all subconscious. Consciously" ? related then as no! to
#esmond%s sound$ ? like 1ohnny odges% sound too$ ? like the more melodic
players. .nd there !as Aust something about the Brubeck +uartet that Aust
pushed my buttons$ ? loved them" ? had every record they ever did.
- 7f course" there%s a real intellectualism there that kind of goes beyond" is
more detached" than !hat you hear in Coltrane" or even -onk.
. .nd it appealed to me$ it connected to me.
- That sounds like something that%s Aust sort of beyond race and into the
realm of personality types.
. Ges. But !hatever it !as" ? connected deeply !ith their music" and then
later" Tristano$ ? !ould connect very deeply !ith Tristano and Konit@ and
-arsh.
- =o !hen you moved through this !hite expression in the Aa@@ milieu into
Charlie 2arker and Coltrane and 7rnette" maybeQ? mean ? remember !hen
you first came out" the feeling about !hat you !ere doing among my Aa@@-buff
circles in =an *rancisco" and ? think in general" !as that 4man" this guy is
really pushing blackness out there all the !ay.4
. GesI 5!e laugh>
- That%s ho! ? remember you in the %;3s.
. Well" the %;3s !as a profound period for me" !here my proclivities !ould
change" !here finally ? !as able to connect !ith the composite partials of
trans-.fricanisms" in a !ay ? !as not able to as a young man. *or instance"
Brubeck6 ? !ent through all the Duropean .merican saxophonists" Bud =hank"
Konit@" -arsh$ al -cCusak" ?%m the only guy on the planet !ho has all of
al -cCusak%s records. #ave 2ell%s octet. -y teacher" 1ack /ell" !as a
Duropean .merican at the Chicago -usical College" !ho !as a racist--yes" he
!as a racist !ho !asn%t al!ays a!are of his racism$ it !as a northern kind of
a racism. e didn%t even like #esmond$ he !as a complex guy. When he
talked of #esmond" he !ould say" 4!hat do you !ant" sugar in your coffee" or
coffee in your sugarC4 That%s ho! he dismissed #esmond" very +uickly. Then
? discovered /igi /ryce" in the Aa@@ lab +uintet$ ? !as taken aback by /igi
/ryce and his compositional abilities" !ith #onald Byrd" and Cedar Walton" ?
think. ?t !as presented as kind of an intellectual hard bop music. ?t appealed to
me" so ? became a /igi /ryce guy.
- #o you remember a time in your development !hen you actually felt a big
surge of liberation into this kind of idea of black identity as a reaction against
all this !hiteness that you had steeped yourself inC
. ?t !as coming into the %;3s" !hen the music started to change. *irst ? heard
Dric #olphy$ !ell actually no" ? heard 7rnette ColemanQ
session 6
. =o !e%re talking about a transition period for me" and the transition !ould
come about through 2ierre and Tommy Dvans and meeting their father" !ho
!as like a Aa@@ guy. -r. Dvans !ould start giving me records to listen to$ it
!ould be through him that ? !ould have my first opportunity to experience
Cecil Taylor%s music6 Cecil Taylor !ith Darl /riffin on vibesQ
- Was this before you got into Charlie 2arker and bebop and all thatC
. Ges.
- =o you got into the 4ne! thing4 first.
. Ges. Cecil Taylor%s music for me !as a revelation. ere !as an .frican
.merican man !ith a super intellectual music that !as also emotional" that
actually set me up--and ? didn%t reali@e it at the time--to be able to hear
=choenberg. -r. Dvans also gave me The Shape of #a$$ To 2ome" by 7rnette
Coleman" !hich ? kept taking back and then t!o" three !eeks later going back
to get it. This !as like a cycle of three" four" five months.
- Gou didn%t like it much at firstC
. *irst time ? heard 7rnette Coleman" ? almost died$ ? thought this !as the
!orst thing ? ever heard in my life$ ? couldn%t even sleep.
- Gou should have gotten a maga@ine +uote out there" like 2hil Woods did
about you. 4There are a lot of primitives out there !ith big egosQ4 5laughter>
. That%s !hat ? !ould have said !hen ? first heard 7rnette Coleman. But ?
couldn%t shake it" it was clear there was something happening, and between
Cecil Taylor and Ornette Coleman, it was as if they were shaking me
upside down. *inally" ? graduated from high school" !ent to Wilson 1unior
CollegeQand actually" even in high school ? !as listening to Claude Willie"
!ho no! calls himself Claude Ea!rence. 2layed tenor saxophone back then"
and ?%m telling you" in my Aunior and senior years in high school" Claude
Ea!rence !as so bad" he !as such a great musician$ he had his o!n soundQ
and of course back in that period bebop !as the thing" especially Benny
/olson compositions. .nd Claude Ea!rence !as dealing !ith it.
- #id you like Benny /olsonC e !as pretty interesting.
. ?n that period" Benny /olson !as ne! to me" so this !as the beginning of
learning about the .frican .merican masters% tradition" the hard bop tradition"
!hich !as something that ? didn%t kno! that much about.
- #id you kind of go through a young man%s psychological revamping in the
%;3s !here you thought" 4man" ?%ve Aust been formed and steeped in all this
!hite stuff" and no! ?%m going to get to move into this distinctly .frican
.merican stuffC
. &o. ? !as attractedQ!hen ? discovered that this music did exist" and that
there !as this continuum of .frican .merican masters that ? did not kno!" ?
definitely became curious" but ? sa! no reason to let go of the guys !hose
music touched my heart$ ? have never been interested in disrespecting
something that%s come to me that%s helped me.
- Well" !hat exactly did it speak to in youC
. ?t Aust opened up my !orld. .nd so Cecil Taylor and 7rnette Coleman" and
Claude Ea!rence !ould set me up for after graduating from high school" ?%d
got to Woodro! Wilson College. &o! CH=" Chicago Hocational =chool" !as
!here ? !ent to high school. ?t !as an integrated school" but it !as really
mostly 2olish .merican and Russian .merican" and .frican .mericans made
up maybe one eighth of the student body$ it !as my first opportunity to meet
Duropean .mericans" and ? discovered of course that they !ere human beings"
Aust like me. ? also discovered that there !ere Duropean .mericans !ho !ere
much more brilliant than ? could ever hope for6 guys like Richard Begeysky$
seems like this guy couldn%t do anything !rong. ? think he got .%s all the !ay
through high school. &ot to mention ? discovered girls" !hich became a maAor
diversion.
- #id you get good gradesC
. 7h" okay$ ?%d say ? got a B average.
- But ? remember reading that you !ere a philosophy maAor at Wilson C
. Ges.
- Gou !eren%t into the music department so much thereC
. Ges ? !as. /oing to Wilson 1unior College !ould be the first experience for
me of going to an all .frican .merican educational institution. .nd it !as
dynamic and vibrant" and ? !ent to" ? think" one session" but before going to
that session ? !as in the band" and there !as this guy next to me. e had an
interesting sound" but ? !as a very good reader" and ? thought ? !as really hot
stuff. But I noticed that wherever I went in the school, when the name
Roscoe Mitchell came up, fear struck into the hearts of men. ? Aust couldn%t
get it$ ? said" ?%m a very good reader" ? had my little 7lds 7pera alto
saxophone$ ? !as the only .frican .merican in the Jnited =tates !ho !ould
go to a Aam session and call 4Take *ive.4 .nd of course" everyone looked at
me like ? !as cra@y. But ? couldn%t figure out !hy everybody talked about
Roscoe.
- What did he play like thenC
. Well" !e !ere playing in the marching band and the classical orchestra" and
he played pretty nice" but ? !as stronger as a reader" ? thought$ ? !as in fact"
?%ll be honest" ? !as stronger. =o ? !ent to this session" and ? found !hat all
the talk !as all about. The experience !as another epiphany in my life. &o!
before hearing Roscoe" ? !as a!are that enry Threadgill" !ho studied !ith
1ack /ell" !as advancing in a very deep !ay$ Henry was playing like Sonny
Rollins by the time he was 13; he was a good musician, and competent in
bebop, but the depth that I was only starting to sense, he already had. .t
Wilson 1r. College" it !as enry !ho signed me into my classes. Dnglish '3'"
enry pulled out the slips$ 4oh" thank you" enry.4 e had glasses like this
5points to his !ire-rimmed specs> in '(;). .t that session" ? sat in--this !as
before Roscoe sho!ed up. ? think ? got lost on 4-ilestonesQ4 5laughter> ?
think it !as maybe the first time ?%d played !ith a rhythm section. ? !as so
nervous and excited. .ny!ay" !hen Roscoe came in" everyone did the
e+uivalent of backing to the !alls" s!eating !ith fear. .nd by the !ay"
Roscoe had a sound that !as like forte to the F;th po!er. e !as playing
something like seven reeds$ the guy !as out. e came up to the bandstand"
called up his guys" a tenor player" trumpet player" saxophonist" maybe 1ack
#e1ohnette on drums$ they started playing 4By By Blackbird.4 -ike effley"
? can not begin to describe it$ all ? can say is they played the head$ he took the
first chorus. ? said" !ell" you kno!" it%s okay. e took the second chorus$
hmm" fairly interesting$ third chorus6 !hoa" this is kind of interesting$ fourth
chorus6 goddamn" !hat the fuck$ fifth chorus6 /7##.-&$ sixth chorus6
-.--." DE2I seventh chorus6 K?EE -D" *JCK ?T$ eighth chorus6 ?%EE
1J-2 7JT TD -7TDR*JCK?&/ W?&#7W" ?%- /?H?&/ J2 -J=?C
.&# E?*DII ?%EE BD . -7TDR*JCK?&/ =7D =.ED=-.&III When
Roscoe Mitchell finished his solo on "By By, Blackbird," my life had
changed. I joined the army a week later.
- Was he mainly Aust playing changes and did it very !ell" or !hatC
. e started off playing the changes" and then it started going into sound$ and
Roscoe" by the !ay" had his o!n sound on the alto" even then.
- Because like no! he%s so minimalist.
. e !as completely different back then. e !asn%t circle-breathing or
honking and beeping back then" it !as Aust a young Roscoe -itchell language"
but it had different components. But even then" it !as a!esome. ? tell you"
!ith the exception of 2aul #esmond" !ho as a young guy ? used to go see
!hen they came to Chicago$ ?%d be sitting there crying !hile he !as playing" ?
loved it so much. But hearing Roscoe -itchell !as like getting hit !ith an -
bomb. When he finished his solo on this one song" ? never even heard him
play another song after that. ?%m talking about one solo" it !as so a!esome
that by the time it !as over" ? had seen /od. There !as no comparison.
=uddenly ? understood ho! ? !as a little chumpy-!umpy-tumpy
motherfucker. 5laughter>
- =o did the effect it had on you send you into thinking that you !anted to be
a better saxophonistC
. .fter hearing Roscoe" ? think the thing that had da!ned on me !as" !hat
the fuck !as happening. There !as something happening in music that ? kne!
nothing about" that had the most a!esome pull on me. ? had already
discovered that ? couldn%t get a!ay from music" because it !as all ? could
think about. .fter hearing Roscoe" it !as a confirmation. ?t%s kind of like
you%re looking at the moon" and starting to see it$ and suddenly you get a
better telescope" and then you see the !hole sky$ for the first time in your life"
you notice that it%s not Aust the moon" there%s a !hole motherfucking sky. .nd
then not only is there a sky" but my !hole understanding of reality is that there
!as an earth and there !as a moon" and no! suddenly ?%m seeing there%s a
!hole sky" a !hole galaxy--and !hen ? left Wilson 1unior College after
Roscoe%s solo" it !as like" !hat the fuck$ !hat the motherfucking shitQ
- Well" it sounds like a big leap from 2aul #esmond to Roscoe -itchell. Gou
didn%t catch any of the in-bet!een pointsCQ
. Well" ? had been listening to 7rnette Coleman" ? !as starting to get used to
the 7rnette Coleman records" ? started to buy more of them$ ? discovered Dric
#olphyQ
- #id you process 7rnette in the sense of saying" like" okay" ? kno!
#esmond and these guys" and ? kno! the paradigm of playing changes and so
on" and so no! ? see that 7rnette is doing a!ay !ith the changes. ? mean"
!ere you thinking in terms of breaking it do!n in terms of the components
like thatC
. 7rnette Coleman%s music" for me" !as this ne! universe" and Cecil Taylor"
and it !as a ne! compositional universe" it had a different feeling to it" and
the kind of ideas he played !ere so exciting" and there !as this intellectual
component in his music that affected me" and sent me reeling$ it !as the
beginning of reconsidering everything. Then Dric #olphy$ .ut"ard Bound
!ould be the record that !as Aust coming out. ? !ent out and bought that
record$ ? almost diedI ? didn%t even kno! it !as possible to play the saxophone
that fast" !ith those kind of skips. .nd so before ? heard Roscoe -itchell" ?
!as starting to make inroads into this strange universe$ ? couldn%t figure out
!hat it !as" but ? !as dra!n to it. .nd then hearing Roscoe !as kind of a
culmination of the fact that" one" something is happening that ? don%t kno!
about$ ? !as Aust starting to appreciate Coltrane. The records ? !as hearing
!ere Aust moving into 4/iant =teps4Q
- =o you thought maybe there !as more to Coltrane than beforeCQ
. ? hadn%t gotten that far !ith thinking" ? !as only thinking 4boy" these are
strange chord changes" and he might not play like #esmond" but he%s
comingQ4 ? mean" you kno!" ? !as kind of confused about !hat !as
happening$ it !as like more and more ? !as starting toQso many things !ere
happening to me bet!een" say" '(;3 and '(;)$ that%s !hat !e%re really talking
about" that time period. =o !e%re talking like something at an increased rate"
and it !as turning my life upside do!n. Because basically I was moving
toward marrying, and working in the post office, and playing a little
music on the side. .nd then ?%m buying these records" starting to move a!ay
from the Duropean .merican saxophonists. .lso" ? had started really getting
into 1ackie -cEean in the hard bop period. =o that period from %,( to %;) !as
a heavy period for me" because suddenly ne! information !as coming in. ?
even got a record of .lban Berg%s chamber music" and ? !as attracted to it" but
? didn%t kno! !hy ? !as attracted to it$ ? guess it !as the composition" because
? had a hard time !ith the notated music space. ?t didn%t interest me that much.
But there !as something about BergQso ?%m discovering a lot of different
things. And then after hearing Roscoe, I tell you, after this H-bomb
exploded in front of me, I joined the army, said fuck it, I had to get away
from everything I knew about, and try to make some sense out of what
was happening, because no longer, by 1963, was music something that I
enjoyed or something that was fascinating: it became something that
totally dominated my whole psyche, all-encompassing; and it was so
powerful that it was basically like someone turning you upside down and
shaking you.
=o then ?%m in the army" and the first matter of business for me !as to go back
and re-examine the hard bop tradition. ? met =onny =eals" a tenor saxophone
player from #etroit. e !as a little older than me" a good player" in the blues
tradition" also an organistQ
- #id you feel like there !as something there that !as at the foundation of
!hat you !ere hearing in Roscoe and everybody" orCQ
. Ges" but ? also felt that my education !asn%t complete" and that more and
more ? had opened up to !here ? could hear this music. *or instance" ? !as a
big fan of the -odern 1a@@ Kuartet in the mid-,3%s and early %;3s. ? liked the
composed reality of their music" and ? think that helped me go to Berg" for
instance6 1ohn Ee!is !ith his fugue-like Bach stuffQ
- =o you%re saying you really got into Duropean masters through Cecil
Taylor" and the -1K" and maybe through 7rnette someho! tooCQ
. Ges" and #ave Brubeck. Brubeck !ould talk about -ilhaud as his teacher$
there !as that cra@y composition of -ilhaud%s" Creation of the World or
!hatever it !as calledQ
- #id you like the time signature stuffC
. 7f Brubeck%sC Ges" ? meanQyou don%t understand$ once ? hook onto a guy"
? hook onto a guy. ? mean ? get every record" and ? don%t think in terms of do ?
like it or not" ? Aust !ant to kno! it$ ? love it because ? love them" and ? !ant
to kno! !hat they%re doing. =o my first year and second year in the army ?
had to go back to 1ohn Coltrane. Dven by" say" '(,( ? !as starting to be able
to hear Charlie 2arker" and that !ould be the beginning then of re-educating
myself" especially !ith respect to the contributions of the great .frican
.merican musicians.
- =o you kind of came to terms !ith the ra!ness that you first heard in BirdC
What" did you think" okay" ? didn%t like it before because ? !as younger and
no! ?%m more of a man" so ? can handle the ra!ness" maybeC
. ? don%t think it !as on that plane$ suddenly it opened up !here ? could hear
it" and feel it. .nd !hereas ? found myself as a young guy thinking 4this 1ohn
Coltrane" !hy does he have to play so many notesC4 suddenly ? !as able to
hear it. .nd then ? remember kicking myself6 4ho! could ? not hear itCI4
5laughs> But ? couldn%t hear it as a young guy. =o it !ould be in the army that ?
!ould frantically go back and try to educate myself about !hat !as
happening. .nd that period" say bet!een '(;) and '(;; !as maybe one of
the heaviest periods of my life. ? mean" one" our country !ould have maybe
t!o assasinations--three" including -alcolm R--the Civil Rights -ovement.
?%m in the army but ?%m buying records$ that%s all ? did" !hen ? !asn%t doing
army duty6 buying records and listening to music and practicing. ?%d go to
Korea after being stationed at ighland 2ark" outside of Chicago for a year
and a half$ in that period" after meeting =onny =eals" he !ould help me to
kno! !hich records to buy by Coltrane" !hich by =onny Rollins$ so ? !as
devouring these records" learning the repertoire" going into sessions. .nd then
? !ent to =eoul" Korea" and my mother mailed me .lbert .yler%s 4Bells4 and
Coltrane%s 4.scensions"4 at my re+uest. That musicQ? cannot begin to tell
you$ that !as ?T for me. ? !as ready for it !hen it came out.
- What !as it you liked about itC =tarting from Roscoe on" did it sort of !ake
up somethingCQ
. ? liked the ideasI =uddenly ? hear the ideas in the music. ? !asn%t interested
then or no! in" oh" ? like the ra!ness of the musicQ
- What !ere the ideas" exactlyC o! !ould you explain themC
. .n increased sonic spectrum$ fresh logics" fresh vocabularies.
- .ll purely musical.
. 2urely musical$ ? didn%t kno! ho! toQ
- Gou didn%t really connect it to the Civil Rights -ovement and all thatC
. Well" the Civil Rights -ovement for me meant a lot of different things.
Remember" no!" in the %,3s" separate but e+ualQyou had to go the the
Colored section if you lived in the =outh. Bro!n v. the Board of Dducation.
When the Civil Rights -ovement burst on the scene" ? found myself thinking"
as ? began to understand !hat !as happening in .merica" that ? could identify
in every !ay !ith the -ovement. Eooking back no!" ho! could ? notC .ll
they !ere talking about !as e+ual rights and that every .merican should have
an opportunity to live. .s ? began to learn of the depth of .merican social and
historical reality" started reading" say" from '(,9 to '(;)" before going into
the army--this !ould also be the period !hen ? started to venture outside my
neighborhood" started hanging out at the Jniversity of Chicago" seeing !hat
kind of books people !ere reading. ? met =hoshana 7rai" a !onderful
1apanese lady !ho ? fell in love !ith" !ho looked at me like ? !as a little kid.
=he !as maybe four years younger than me" and maybe t!enty years more
advanced than me in terms of literature and things like that. =o there ? am
reading *reud" trying to impress =hoshana" and also trying to increase my
information scan" because ? didn%t reali@e ho! little ? kne!$ ? !as Aust buying
my Brubeck records.
- What%s interesting about that is that !e%ve been talking about all these
influences as being both problematic and also promising--Duropeans"
.fricans" etc.--and the feminist component of your persona has developed in
the academic realm" and in the creative realm markedly and publicly over the
years$ so !e can say" !ell" the problem about that" too" is that" obviously,
femininity is one of the forces in the world that has had to struggle under
a cloud of oppression, just like the others we've talked about; but the
feminist movement itself has turned into a sort of Southern strategy, kind
of idiomatic quadrant of its ownQ
. ? agree completely" ?%m no longer interested in the feminist movement at all$
?%m only interested in humanity. But as a young man" after !hat ?%ll call dog
days" ? came to understand that !hat ? !as really looking for !as someone ?
could be !ith" and be in love !ith. 2lus" since my very first year in high
school" ? !as !ith #arleneQ8Q:. =o that !as the other component.
But the army experience for me" being a!ay from home and going to Korea
for a year and a half" !as very good for me. ?t gave me a chance to be separate
from my brothers" separate from my family" in this period of such profound
social upheaval in our country. -ean!hile" ?%m learning about so many
different musics. ?t !ould be in the army that ? discovered =choenberg" in
Korea$ and that !as Aust as heavy as !hen ? finally started hearing Coltrane. ?
!ent to hear Coltrane several times !hen ? !as in .merica" bet!een" say"
'(;) and '(;,--some!here around 1une" '(;," ? !ent to Korea--but in that
year-and-a-half period ? sa! Coltrane play three times. The first time ? !alked
out.
- Gou didn%t like itC
. ? !ent and heard him at -cKee%s Eounge on ;)rd =t. on Cottage /rove$ ?
!as Aust starting to !arm up to 4/iant =teps"4 felt like ? !as ready. =o of
course he%s playing like" you kno!" Dlvin" -cCoy" and 1immy" and it !as
intense" man. .nd it !as cro!ded and ? !as heading to!ard the door$ ?
decided this man is cra@y" ? !ant nothing to do !ith it. .nd the composition
came to an end" and then this is !hat took me out6 he played the ballad" 4?t%s
=o Dasy to Remember and so ard to *orget.4 .nd he played it straight" and it
!as beautiful" and it !as profound" and it took me out" in the same !ay that
Roscoe%s music took me out. ? found myself !ith this paradox6 ho! can this
guy play so beautifully !hen he plays this balladC then he goes back to this
other music and it%s all sound againC There must be something happening that
? don%t kno! aboutI
- Eike Bob #ylan%s -r. 1ones. 5laughs>
. #ylan !as a hero of mine then too. =o ? !as consumed !ith trying to find
out !hat it is" because it !as something that !as much more real than !hat ?
!as looking at" something much more encompassing" let me put it like that"
that ? had not been able to penetrate.
- ?t%s obvious that first and foremost you%ve al!ays been a human being
interested in humanity" but you also have had a certain path from a certain
place" and ?%m !ondering !hat you !ould say distinguishes your relationship
to the .frican .merican" or trans-.frican sector that makes it stand out from
your relationship to the other sectors" simply by virtue of the fact that you are
an .frican .merican.
. ? don%t think at this point" based on the things !e%ve been talking about" that
? !as any different than anyone else. ? think !hat distinguished me then" as a
young man" is part of !hat ?%ve been fighting for all my life6 the right as a
human being to be able to learn from experiences and then have hope for
doing the best ? can do. ? think everybody !as of that psychological nature.
.nd ? think in the time period of the %;3s" !ith the social upheavals" ? started
to see the problems in my country--like !hat !ere !e doing in Hiet &am"
bombing these people into submissionC =uddenly +uestions about the ethics of
my government !ould come into play in a !ay that ? had never even thought
about. ? had never even thought about politics. =uddenly" for instance" after
the army ? !ould discover" 4? guess ? am a sexist kind of guy in some !ays.4
?%d never even reali@ed that !omen had special problems that they had to deal
!ith at all" ?%d never considered that. ? had never considered that ? !as
connected to Durope$ ? Aust liked !hat ? liked. ? had never considered the great
body of literature as representing the human experience that actually included
me !hether ? !anted to be a part of it or not. ? had never considered that there
!as an .frican .merican intellectual tradition that ? !as the recipient of"
!hether ? understood it or not. ? had never considered that the guys from my
community !ould not be able to go out and have fulfilling lives$ but ? had
started to notice" even in high school" that half of my grammar school friends
!ere either dead or in Aail" !ith maybe" say" '3 per cent being able to go to
high school. ? didn%t understand all of that.
=o it !as a gradual a!akening to .merican social reality" after finally busting
out of my neighborhood" starting to see greater Chicago. .s a young man" ?
used to get on the E" !hich in Chicago means the sub!ay system and elevated
train system" at different points. ? used to al!ays ride the train all around the
city. .s ? started going further into the north side" in the !hite communities"
started noticing ho! different they looked. ? didn%t understand all that" but ?
did notice that the !orld !as bigger than my little t!o blocks in Chicago"
!here !e%d be at the little drug store talking about baseball scores" having a
malt" and that !as like big time" hanging out !ith the guys !ho kne! all the
baseball statistics" arguing about !ho !as the best pitcher and this kind of
stuff.
- Were you not happy !ith it because it seemed limited to this realm of
ethnic identity in any !ayC
. That !as one component" but there !as another one. ? gre! up !ith my
mother and stepfather" but ? !as al!ays very close to my father" !ho" at that
time" !as still alive.
- Eet%s try to sum up from a distance" then" your mature assimilation of the
trans-.frican thrusts around you.
. *rom '(;' to '(;;" !hen ? got out of the army--that !hole period for me
!as about assimilating and reevaluating the trans-.frican" especially the
bebop musics. ?t !ould also be my introduction to the modern musics"
starting" say" !ith BartSk. .fter the army" Cage and =tockhausen" and .lbert
.yler" and late Coltrane" and the &e! Gork =chool. But after the army is
!hen ? !ent into the ..C-" and met a family of musicians !ho !ere totally
interested in the kinds of things ? !as interested in" on some level. We all had
our various interests as individuals" but it !as an organi@ation of kindred
spirits$ you could be interested in !hatever you !anted to be interested in in
the ..C-. .nd ? !as interested in composition" improvisation" and ideas. By
then" ? !ould say" the life of my music and the direction of my life had started
coming together.
- When you first made your public debut" it definitely seemed in the press" in
3o"n Beat and so on" to be the voice of the ne! young generation of .frican
.merican identity sort of breaking out of the mold. When that started
happening for you" getting media attention and everything" ? remember you
being pretty adamant about all your influences and connections" nodding to
the Duropeans and Duropean .mericans among them$ but still" it !as in this
context the ne! young black guys from Chicago" !ith something ne! to say
in the black tradition" of" as some of them said" /reat Black -usic. ?%m
!ondering ho! in your o!n mind you had s+uared a!ay all of your
influences in relation to the .frican .merican tradition of #uke Dllington"
Count Basie" Charlie 2arker" etc.
. ? sa! myself as interested in composite reality by the time ? Aoined the
..C-$ and ? !ould also say that ? did not see myself as uni+ue in the sense
that ? !as the only person !ho had solidified a fresh aesthetic position. ?n fact"
part of the significance of the ..C- !ould be that all of the principal guys
!ould solidify an aesthetic position that !ould reflect something fresh. By the
time the guys had started !riting about me" it had become clear to me even
then that there !as a political-racial component that !as distorting our !ork.
*or instance" !hen ? got out of the army" the record Sound" by the Roscoe
-itchell sextet" had already been recorded. That record" for me" !as one of
the greatest records then and no!" from the time period of the %;3s. ?%d like to
hope that !hen the mature histories are !ritten" that that recording !ill be
reevaluated. &ot only that--? feel that the universe that Roscoe -itchell !ould
put together represents then and no! one of the great bodies of music from
my generation$ ? feel that the universe of Eeo =mith" the universe of 1oseph
1arman" the great !ork of the .rt Dnsemble of Chicago" the great music of
-uhal Richard .brams" has been seriously ignored and undermined. There
!as a guy named Troy Robinson$ he didn%t survive it" but he !as another
.frican .merican !ho had a store front" !ho trained his o!n people" T la =un
Ra" and !as doing a music of total integrity$ everybody !as postulating
positive goalsQ
- Eet me ask you this6 !e%ve been talking about long s!eeps of history" and
ho! you have taken in your idea of composite reality going all the !ay back
to the beginnings of the West" &orthern Duropean mythology" 1e!ish
influences$ !e%ve talked about people from .ristotle on up. =o let%s talk about
the trans-.frican sector in that picture.
. Thank you.
- .nd !e%ve also talked about the trans-.frican sector as being incorrectly
framed" and appropriated in a distorted !ay by the po!ers that be. =o let%s
leave that aside for a second and say Aust in the terms of the composite reality
that you%re engaged !ith" !hat role does this long tradition of trans-.frican
musical expression" from .frica into .merica" !hat role does it play in your
musical universeC
. Thank you for that +uestion. That continuum is the template of my
experience$ ? !ould come to understand that. ?t is from that template that my
relationship to Durope can be understood. *or instance" in the late %,3s ?
started to read 1ames Bald!in" Ralph Dllison" and this continuum of !riters.
The !ork of William /rant =till !as very important to me by '(;0" because ?
!as al!ays looking for .frican .merican e+uivalents of everything that
touched me" as ? got older" especially" !hen ? came to see that there !as a
continuum that ? didn%t kno! about. ? think the time period of the %;3s" for me"
!ould be !hen ? !ould al!ays look to that continuum to better understand
!ho ? !as. When ? discovered Berg" and as ? started to develop a taste for
notated music" the next +uestion ? !ould ask myself !as" !ere there any
.frican .mericans doing this kind of musicC
=o !hat ?%m going to talk about no!" ?%m going to talk aboutQbut ? can%t talk
about it in a se+uential order starting from say '(,0 or , in the !ay ? can talk
about discovering .hmad 1amal or Brubeck" because ? didn%t like notated
music as a young man. But in the end" !hen ? talk of the template of my
aesthetic +ualities" ?%m talking of a continuum of .frican .merican men and
!omen !ho have tried to meet the challenge of existence in every space.
-any of them ? still don%t kno! about--scientists" agriculturalists"
spiritualists--?%m still in need of education.
- .mong the ones you do kno! the best" !hat !ould you say they bring to
the table of !orld-historical culture and discourseC
. Eet%s go back to *rank 1ohnson. e brought composite interdisciplinary
conections" setting the propositions up for multimedia. is !ork in the
2hiladelphia area" and his trips to Durope" !ould produce a music that !ould
clarify active rhythmic logics in a !ay that !ould become a point of definition
for the modern era experiences that !ould lead a!ay from the vertical musics.
The !ork of 1elly Roll -orton--!ho" !hile he !as from &e! 7rleans" and
had experiences in the Western part of the Jnited =tates" especially Texas--
-r. -orton%s music never fit in. e !as an example of an .frican .merican--
or non-Duropean" because he had many different +ualities--!ho !ould tackle
the integration of circle and s+uareQmaybe no triangleQ!ell" triangle" as
integration. The early ot *ive" ot 2epper ensemble musics" !ould define
the nature of integration that accelerated the collective experiences of the &e!
7rleans music" and go outside the entertainment-aesthetic parameters that
!ould be imposed upon the &e! 7rleans music by the political manipulations
that !ould become part of the =outhern strategy.
The great !ork of William /rant =till" for me" !ould help me as ? sought to
understand my relationship to Bartok" !ho !as very important to me in the
beginning$ Bartok and .lban BergQ
- Why BartokC
. ? Aust liked his music" ? liked the melodies of his music" ? liked the string
+uartets.
- #id you get to a point !hereQfirst of all" you say" you didn%t like notated
music$ so you got to a point !here something about the device of notation
opened a door for you into something that at first you didn%t like" but no! you
did come to likeC
. Ges. .nd ? think it !as a gradual change going through the !ork of the
-odern 1a@@ Kuartet" the dynamics of 7rnette Coleman. 7rnette Coleman%s
compositions--very important to me" especially in the early period. Cecil
Taylor%s composition in the early period !as very different than it is no!" and
? !as attracted to the abstract nature of his !riting" and his improvisation. But
.lban Berg%s music had this melodic +uality" and Bartok%s music for strings"
celeste" and percussion" that !as a favorite composition for me. onegger%s
music6 !hen ? !as at Wilson 1r. College" ? !as at the library every single day
playing recordingsQand ? !as very affected by onegger" of all people. .nd
indemith.
- =o you Aust got to a point of moving from disliking to liking notated music.
?%m thinking of 1ost /ebers" the manager of *-2" hates composition tradition$
and the reason he doesn%t like it" and the reason he doesn%t like your !ork" is
because he sees it as too calculated. But it sounds to me like a guy !ho starts
out not liking notated music" and only liking improvised or spontaneous
music" begins to like notated music because it offers a !ay to calculate
something and set something up that is only possible through notationC
. ? !ould arrive at understanding that later. ? think before understanding that"
? Aust liked !hat ? heard. ?t !asn%t such a big step from the #ave Brubeck
Kuartet to the -odern 1a@@ Kuartet" Aust looking at compositional change" to
Third =tream music" !ith /unther =chuller" !hich !as interesting$ then
Bartok and Berg. &o! ?%m playing in the student orchestra" and later the ,th
.rmy Band" and !e%re playing 2rokofiev" The =ound of -usic" Bartok$ ?
remember playing 2rokofiev and thinking" hmm" this is strange$ it didn%t feel
tonally correct" it felt !eird" but ? liked it. The =cher@os" !hich !ere off
balance. =o ? started going to the libraries and finding these records. .t the
time !e played Bach" ? hated it$ ? kind of consigned it to this region that !as
4!hite people%s musicQ4
- #id you hate it because it !as too calculatedCQ
. &o" it !as Aust irrelevant" kind of like the =outhern strategy 5laughs>. ?t !as
like you had to learn this to learn the instrument" so you did it for that reason"
but it !as irrelevant" it !as something !hite people liked" !hoever !hite
people !ere.
- Eike the 1ohn Eennon song says" 4nothing you can say that can%t be said$
nothing you can sing that can%t be sungQ4
. *or me" ? Aust couldn%t hear it." but ? kne!" and my teacher made me play in
these various ensembles as ? sought to learn the instrument" ? Aust kind of
consigned it to this region of" !ell" this is !hat !hite people did" and ? !ant to
be competitive and play my instrument" but it dind%t touch my heart. 7nly
later" !hen ? started listening to Bartok and Berg did the actual music start
!arming up to me$ but even then the ideas of the music !ere more interesting
than the actual music" because the music didn%t touch me. ?t !ould be after
hearing =chUnberg%s 4Three 2ieces for the 2iano"4 in the library" !ith the
Kandinsky cover" !here ? almost died" because it !as at that point for the first
time in my life that ? heard the music.
- .nd you say Cecil Taylor set you up to be hearing that.
. Ges" the early music.
- Cecil Taylor !as influenced by that.
. 7f course he !as. But at the time--? mean" ? didn%t put all that together$ this
!as very different 4Aa@@4 for me" and it !as not tonal in the !ay ? had been
thinking of tonality.
- ? guess !here ?%m trying to get to is" like" !hen !e talked about Wagner
and the Duropean traditional stuff that influenced you" !e%re talking about a
tradition that hasn%t been touched by .frican .merica. But !hen !e talk about
the trans-.frican sector in .merica" !e%re talking about a !hole culture and
people !ho had to find their !ay in the dominant culture.
. Ges. .nd !e%re also talking about different time cycles. When ? !as
gro!ing up" ? didn%t like Wagner either. When ? !as gro!ing up" ? didn%t like
=tockhausen$ ? thought they !ere all totally irrelevant. .nd ? didn%t kno!
about *rank 1ohnson or William /rant =till" so only later" after =chUnberg"
!hen ? actually heard the music" in a totally notated space" it !as liberating.
=uddenly" ? !as starting to be able to hear Bach" his music. Because before
that" it !as al!ays" like 4!hat%s all the big fuss aboutC4
- .nd you heard 7rnette and Roscoe and all these people before you heard
bebop$ so you got to bebop through the really out guys.
. Well" not exactly. ? heard #ave Brubeck$ that !as bebop. Tristano" that !as
bebop" /igi /ryce" 1a@@ Eab Kuintet" that !as bebop$ some 1ackie -cEeanQ
but ? had a narro! experience" and hearing Roscoe and Threadgill !ould
make me go back to broaden my experience.
Eet me go back to William /rant =till. ?n talking about this area of the music"
!e%re not talking about me as a young guy" !e%re talking about me moving
through the late %;3s and into the %B3s. ?%m evolving my o!n ideas at the same
time. ?t makes a lot of sense" the connection bet!een Bartok and William
/rant =till" although ? !ould experience in academia" and ? !on%t name
names" a profound disrespect for the .frican .merican composers tradition.
.gain" it !as marginali@ed and basically !ritten off as irrelevant. William
/rant =till--do you kno! his musicC
- . little bit.
. ? think he !as a!esome.
- e !as kind of influenced by BartokC e also !rote some t!elve-tone
stuff" didn%t heC
. =ome$ he studied !ith HarVse and reAected it. Basically" this guy has
something like ( operas.
- What about Jlysses KayC
. ? think he%s still alive. T.1. .ndersonQthis !hole tradition$ 7lly Wilson.
This !hole tradition" Eeo =mith and ?" starting in the late %;3s" !e started to
explore this music. We !ere shocked--? kno! ? !as shocked. Eeo%s al!ays
been a much deeper scholar than me" even as a young man" so ? !as like
killing myself trying to keep up !ith him. e kne! more about Dllington" for
instance" than me.
- *unny story from Durope. /Wnter =ommer and 2eter Ko!ald and Eeo
together in their trio. When /Wnter first heard Eeo" he thought" 4? have to be
the black guy in this group" because ?" /Wnter Baby =ommer" the Dast /erman
Aa@@ musician" have to be the black drummer" because this guy is playing like
=chUnberg or !hatever.4 5laughter> 4Was is das" es ist nicht richtigI4
5laughter>
. Eeo =mith is a great .merican visionary" and !e%ll get to him later. William
/rant =till" and the continuum of .frican .merican composers !ould not
only be the template that ? !ould build upon" but their !ork !ould represent a
confirmation that there !as more to the .frican .merican experience than
!hat ? had been taught" even in the .frican .merican community. Because ?
didn%t hear their music !hen ? !as gro!ing up$ no one talked about their
music" or even kne! about it.
- When !e do get into your !orkQ
. We%ll get into my !ork in the next five years" the !ay !e%re going" but ?
love this.
- What ?%m noticing" though" is that of all these influences that you%ve
mentioned" none have gone into the territory that you%ve gone into !ith your
!ork" your actual body of music in terms of integrating improvisation" out
kind of sound spaces" notation.
. ?t Aust depends on !ho you%re talking about. W. C. andy started !riting
music" published the first notated blues$ =cott 1oplin !as not an improviser"
but !e have to look at these guys !ith respect to their time period and !hat
!as possible. William /rant =till" for instance" !as very interested in the
composite tradition but !as not an instrumentalist or improviser himself" so
you%re right" there !as a limitation there. But at the same time" this guy !ould
compose across the spectrum from solo piano music all the !ay to an opera
cycle that has never been performed. is !ork is neoclassic in the same sense
as Bartok--taking melodies" ethnic melodies" folk musics" and building a
symphonic logic out of them. William /rant =till !ould do the same !ith
blues" put it in a symphonic context. That !as revolutionary in his time
period. .nd the actual music is as uni+ue and as separate as Bartok" but !e
never talk of it like that. This is my point" that that continuum !ould Aust be
marginali@ed$ it doesn%t matter" it !ouldn%t be integrated into a Charles ?ves--
!e talk about Charles ?ves and his move to!ard dissonance and complexity"
but William /rant =till%s music !as exploring fresh materials" in his use of
blues scales" in his decision to bring it into a symphonic context" but it%s Aust
not talked of in that !ay$ it%s kind ofQ
- Because of .merican cultural politics.
. Because of .merican cultural politics" this is my point. *lorence 2rice%s
4=ymphony in D4 is not even played any more" but it !as considered a very
important composition in the early %)3s.
- Ruth Cra!ford =eeger" maybe !e should mention her too$ because !hat
!e%re talking about no! is areas that are really of great interest to
ethnomusicologists" like Bartok and Ruth Cra!ford =eeger" but not William
/rant =till.
. Ges. .nd before talking about Ruth Cra!ford =eeger" ?%d have to go back
and say the great Charles =eeger%s music has also been kicked out" and this
!as like a point of definition for !orld music psychologies. Charles =eeger is
very important$ !e don%t celebrate this great .merican master. ?t%s from
Charles =eeger" and from enry Co!ell" another great master" !hose tonal
clusters !ould define and isolate another component" !hich !ould set the
stage for Ruth Cra!ford =eeger" !ho studied !ith both of them" !ho !as the
recipient of both their !orks.
- o! !ould you explain the prominence of Charles ?ves as the .merican
icon he is no!" in terms of !hat !e%ve been saying about coalition politics and
the music industry and all that. Why did he get sei@ed upon as the big
spokesmanC
. e !as a &e! Dnglander. What kind of .merican is he" Dnglish" /erman"
or !hatC
- Dnglish" ? think.
. .nd !hat is -r. =eegerC
- ? don%t kno!.
. Charles ?ves !as a recipient of the Dast Coast intellectual +uadrant that
=piro .gne! talked about$ and even though he experienced reAection and hard
times" his !ork !as a component of the Dast Coast intellectual platform" even
in reAection and opposition. e !ould make his fortune in insurance" !ent to
arvardQthat is !hy !e talk of Charles ?ves as opposed to enry Co!ell"
!hose sexual experiences !ould re+uire sidelining him. But Charles =eeger is
the man" and William /rant =till is an .frican .merican !hose !ork !as
a!esome on the scale of Wagner. But before William /rant =till" =cott 1oplin.
- But ho! !ould you explain him in terms of becoming a great .merican
icon tooC Was he appropriated in some !ayC
. Well" his !ork !ould come along at a time !hen the piano !ould become a
part of the salon culture of .merica" !hen the piano roll !ould be introduced.
Ragtime !ould become very popular$ but Ragtime" of course" !as a
composer%s music. 1oplin !as not a leading exponent of the improviser%s
Ragtime" but he !as able to translate it into the notated space and achieve
success" but they !ould not accept the opera or the grand ideas. This is !hy
the man became a depressive and eventually lost it. e !as the beginning of
the continuum that ?%m a part of. But ? consider him a great .merican master.
.fter him" William /rant =till as a dynamic master" kind of like Wagner but
not as encompassing in terms of bringing in a mythology. .lthough the
operas--have you ever heard the operasC ? have one on videotape. e%s dealing
!ith .frican .mericans" placing them in mythological contexts and dealing
!ith the battle of good and evil" a la Wagner. This isn%t to say he%s a point of
definition for that integration" Wagner%s the point of definition. ?%m only
saying that 1oplin !as a small-time poor guy like myself !ho had great
dreams" and his !ork !ould respond to the improvised restructural strategies
of Ragtime as !ell as the dynamics of Chopin. =o you have a Chopin-Ragtime
integration that !as uni+uely .merican" that he tried to" that he did in fact
parlay" transform" expand into the operatic context. e !rote t!o operas$ one
!as lost.
- Treemonisha and !hat elseC
. ? can%t remember the name of the other one. But it%s lost" it%s never been
performed. But it !ould be at that point that !e can start talking of the grand
.frican .merican composer%s tradition" 1oplin into William /rant =till. The
next group !ould be an academic group that !as interesting but also complex"
because that group !ould be a part of the .frican .merican middle and upper
class that !ould dra! its information mostly from the academy" !hile at the
same time dra!ing on .frican .merican thematic materials. That group !as
greatly misunderstood" but it !as a complex group because in many !ays they
!ould accept second-place status. We%re going to see them reappear in the
next t!enty years" no! that the =outhern strategy is back" guys are graduating
from college$ they%re going to start !riting correct .frican .merican notated
music" papers$ some of them !ill achieve success. But the success is
predicated on that second-class status.
session 7
. *or me" the importance about talking about that continuum !ould be
healthy for the intervie!" because my interest in Durope doesn%t supersede my
interest in myself or in the .merican and .frican .merican masters.
- Where did !e get !ith the last intervie!sC We talked about the .frican
.merican composers" and !e talked about the Aa@@ masters" and KoreaQ
. #id !e talk about *rank 1ohnsonC
- Geah.
. Because he%s important to me" even though" if ? !ould be honest" ? only
discovered *rank 1ohnson !hen ? !as in academia. This is part of the problem
of the culture" this sector doesn%t have musics available$ the documentation is
so spotty. . record comes about !ith a print run of ,33 copies$ then ?"
listening to 4Tristan and ?solde4 last night" and the !ay ?%ve been playing
4Treemonisha4 again--and ? really like 4Treemonisha4--and ?%ve been reading
about =cott 1oplin%s life and really identifying !ith this guy. ?%m going to go to
Borders maybe tomorro! and buy the t!o books on W.D.B. #uBois.
- ? sa! a book revie! of that on TH. #o you kno! about the Book TH
channelC
. Ges. That%s a very nice channel. /uys come and talk about the books that
have Aust come out. =o he must have been on it" the guy !ho the !e" -or1
Times Boo1 +evie"Q
- &o" the guy !ho !rote the book !as on it.
. Ges. This is !hy ? !ant to get that book. But" for instanceQ
- Eet me ask you this !hile ?%m thinking of it6 on the subAect of Durope" ho!
do you feel you%ve been received as a composer over there in the Western
traditionC
. ? think #uBois" in this book revie!" put his finger right on my situation"
excatly. e said that" basically" .frican .merican intellectuals" and people
like myself" !hatever !e do is irrelevant" as far as affecting the debate of
ideas.
- Gou seem to have more of a follo!ing in Durope" though" and an
understanding$ are you saying that they%re more concerned !ith you as a black
exotica kind of thingCQ
. &o" ? feel that there%s a small group of people in Durope !ho really are
interested in my !ork" and ? thank them. Were it not for their interest" !hat
!ork ?%ve had in terms of performance in the last F3 years !ould have been
cut B<(thsQ
- 2eter &iklaus Wilson seems to admire your compositions.
. 2eter%s been very supportive" and a real friend$ the book he did on me" for
example" and the books that /raham Eock didQ? thank the Duropeans and ?
thank those individuals !ho have supported my !ork in some !ay.
- The Eondon Composers% 7rchestraQ
. The Eondon Composers% 7rchestra$ but to respond to your +uestion about
my !ork in composition" ? mean" you kno!" ? don%t get performances of my
compositions" especially the large pieces$ the piece for 0 orchestras has never
actually been performed. .nd ? understood that !hen ? embarked on this
direction as a young guy$ it !as al!ays clear to me that" based on reading
!hat happened to William /rant =till" and !hat !as happening in my o!n
life" looking around at performances" it !as clear that ? !as not going to be
able to have many performances. Eater" that%s !hy ? left 2arisQ
- The ideal situation !ould be one in !hich" for instance" say" =tockhausen
!ould be a!are of you as a peer" and everyone else !ould see you in the
discourse tooCQ
. ? don%t hope for that" nor !ould ? necessarily think that =tockhausen !ould
see me as a peer. ? mean he%s an older guy" and he is in a different circle" and ?
don%t kno! ho! interested a guy like =tockhausen !ould be in my !ork" since
my understanding of him is that he%s basically doing his o!n music and he%s
open a little bit to the colleagues he came up !ith" but he%s not that interested
in even the post-Webern or post-=tockhausen guys$ he%s kind of fighting to do
his o!n !ork$ and ? think ? learned a lot from him about ho! important it is to
generate your o!n enthusiasm about your o!n !ork and try to push for!ard.
e%s had support" and as a Duropean he%s been able to take advantage of his
position in post!ar Durope. There%s no reason for me to assume that a guy like
Karlhein@ =tockhausen !ould even be open to my !ork but there%s every
reason for me to continue to al!ays recogni@e his !ork" since he%s one of my
fathers" !hether or not he kno!s it$ he%s one of the musical fathers !hose
!ork helped me define my life" and part of that for me involves recogni@ing
the responsibility to ackno!ledge it.
- /etting back to the .frican .merican continuum" you did mention Cecil
Taylor and the ..C- a little bit. Why don%t !e Aust start !ith Tadd #ameron
and go through the ones you mentioned.
. Eet%s start !ith #uke Dllington" because Tadd comes after. .s a young guy"
? loved #uke Dllington%s music" but ? only experienced a very narro!
spectrum of it. ?n fact" ? have Eeo =mith and -uhal Richard .brams to thank
for encouraging me to explore -r. Dllington%s music more. .t ,, years old" ?
look at -r. Dllington and have a profound debt to him" that he !as able to
fight so long for his music" and to achieve so many successes musically in so
many different areas. is !ork has many different levels of inspiration for me"
as an .frican .merican !ith integrity$ as a composer !ho has many different
periods to his music$ as a composer !ho participated in the challenges of
creative music in his time period and met !ith so many different successes6
integration of composition !ith improvisation. 7f course" this subAect really
isn%t complete !ithout ackno!ledging the great !ork of *letcher enderson"
and the success of his compositional musics. ? hear there%s a ne! record out
!ith Bob Wilbur playing *letcher enderson%s arrangements for Benny
/oodman" including compositions that !ere Aust discovered" and never
played. This is a C# ? !ill buy. Bob Wilbur is a virtuoso saxophonist and
clarinetist !ho is kind of a part of the revivalist movement of the %,3s$ he%s a
post-=idney Bechet stylist" but an original one" he has his o!n music" really a
great musician. e%s gone about his music !ith total integrity and respect" and
his !ork is generally pushed to the side and not appreciated$ he%s an .merican
!ho lives no!" ? think" in Eondon. e%s a great player" ?%ve heard him play
live.
- 2ushed aside as being sort of retroC
. Ges" !hen in fact his music is not retro. *or me it%s the problem again of
definitions" ho! !e talk of past" present and future as being separate units.
e%s connected !ith the earlier musics" that%s for sure" but it%s not a revivalist
connection in the sense that he%s Aumped aboard some band !agon$ rather he%s
follo!ing his muse and building upon his real interests" !hich !ere based in
that period. =o he has a ne! C# out no! !ith *letcher enderson
arrangements. ? mention it because it triggered in me the importance of
*letcher enderson%s music. *letcher enderson has been either ignored or
!hatever. But" for instance" line-forming logics can be vie!ed as a point of
definition in *letcher enderson%s !ork. ?mbalanced extended structures$
fresh integration of composition and improvisation" not Aust a little head or
riff" but an architectonic compositional perspective that he brought to the
music" even before #uke Dllington.
- =o !hat do you see as the link bet!een *letcher enderson and #uke
DllingtonC
. The link !ould be that #uke Dllington%s !ork !ould build upon the
propositions of *letcher enderson" in the sense of extended orchestration"
and continued evolution and exploration and synthesis-conceptual models that
!ould explore that dichotomy bet!een intention composition versus
improvisation and targeted improvisatory strategies. *letcher enderson
!ould be one of the main composers to open that door. #uke Dllington" then"
starting !ith the 4Aungle musics"4 !ould introduce fresh rhythmic strategies"
more extreme conceptual models" building upon individual uni+ueness"
integrating that into the orchestral context. -r. DllingtonQit%s outrageous to
look at the spectrum of musics he%s contributed. 4Black" Bro!n and Beige4 is
an example of the beginning of the extended structural models$ a sense of
.fricanisms that" in terms of poetic logics" like William /rant =till and other
of my heroes" !ould start to mine the folk musics and blues musics of the
.frican .merican experience.
- ?t seems like in your 2omposition !otes" a lot of times you !rite the phrase
4fresh timbral possibilities$4 and it seems like starting !ith 1ames Reese
Durope !e started to get these gro!ling trumpets and vocal sounds in the
instruments. Then you think of like Chu Berry !ith *letcher enderson
having a distinctive voice$ then #uke seems to have really flo!ered that
!hole concept in his band.
. Dxactly--and there%s another person that !e need to also include" and that%s
the great !ork of Charlie -ingus" !hich is post-Dllington. But #uke
Dllington%s various =uites" the 4ueen Suite" 3iminuendo and 2rescendo in
Blue--that music is very important. ?n saying that" ?%m not saying anything
fresh on any level$ in fact" ?%m very happy that !e are no! in the Dllington
period" !here serious scholarship is starting to come out on his music" right as
!e move into the third millennium. ?n every !ay" that is right on time and
correct.
- When !e talked about Eouis .rmstrong last time" !e talked about the t!o
side" the creative side and the appropriated side. o! !ould you talk about
#uke Dllington in the history of that double-edged s!ordC Because obviously
no! at the Eincoln Center" #uke Dllington is right at the center of that too.
. Ges.
- o! !ould you distinguish your o!n relationship !ith #uke Dllington%s
music from" say" the Eincoln Center%sC
. Well" ? see #uke Dllington as occupying the same position that !e give to
1= Bach" that his music is all-encompassing. .nd yet" his music is politically
being used in this period to stifle guys" like myself" !hen in fact his !hole
career !as a struggle" as an .frican .merican person" to have the right to do
his music and to have it respected based on his value systems. *or instance"
there !as a period !hen #uke Dllington%s music !as put do!n in the Aa@@
community. ?t !as being undermined by a vie!point of trans-.fricanisms that
!ould say that his extended compositions !ere someho! not correct for an
.frican .merican composer" that it !as too Durocentric. =o" you kno!" here ?
am fifty years later getting the same kind of vie!point" !here parameters are
being set that seek to determine !hat is correct for an .frican .merican
composer" that seek to reduce the dynamic possibilities of the music as
opposed to seek to understand the breakthroughs" the possibly uni+ue
possibilities that have come from the .frican .merican experience. =o -r.
Dllington then had the same obAections put on his music.
- ? remember reading =tanley Crouch criti+uing 7rnette Coleman as
someone !ho really couldn%t cut it in the .frican .merican" so he got into the
Duropean paradigm someho!. #o you kno! !here he !as coming from !ith
thatC
. =tanley has been +uite effective in the last F3 years as far as positing a
vie!point about !hat constitutes the correct aesthetic parameters and
alignment for .frican .merican music. *rom the beginning" !e%ve al!ays had
a different vie!point about this subAect. When ? think about my understanding
of =tanley%s vie!point" ? find myself feeling that it" again" is a reductionist
one" that on the one hand insists on the inclusion of #uke Dllington and
Charlie -ingus" and rightfully so--that continuum of composers as e+ual to
anything that has been created by the Duropean or Duropean .merican
composers community. But on the other hand" his vie!point of Durocentric in
many !ays has distorted his understanding of .frican .merican creativity. ?n
doing so" =tanley%s vie!point" in my opinion" is involved !ith those
reductionist forces that have historically sought to limit the vibrational
spectrum of .frican .merican experience. ?n my vie!" !hile on the one hand"
=tanley%s !riting and political decisions have been very important for
elevating and exposing people to the !ork of Dllington and *letcher
enderson" and the blues tradition$ on the other hand" his !ork is directly
connected to the suppression of .frican .merican composite vibrational
dynamics. *or me" this has been the tragedy of his vie!point.
? !ould also say that if !e !ere in a more balanced situation in the media" ?
don%t think =tanley Crouch%s vie!point !ould be so harmful" if other
vie!points !ere given e+ual attention and e+ual treatment in the media. Then
his vie!point !ould be one among many. But !hat !e%re seeing instead is a
suppression of perspectives. ? don%t blame =tanley Crouch for his vie!point"
he has a right to have it$ but for his vie!point to be the only one that gets out
thereQthis has created a problem" ? feel.
- What do you make of his insistence on using the term 4&egroC4
. ?t%s fine !ith me if he !ants to use that term. T!enty years ago everyone
!as saying you had to refer to .frican .mericans as black. ? see his use of the
term as consistent !ith his composite attempts to transport the musics back
into the '(F3s and %)3s. .ll of this" in my opinion" is part of this retrogressive
movement. e !ants Aa@@ to be Aa@@" negroes to be negroes" Aa@@ musicians to
!ear suits$ he !ants one rhythmic logic" that he calls s!ing$ he !ants
idiomatic certainty" from a continuum that !as based on evolution and
responding to the dynamics of real time. 1ust as" in my opinion" the devices of
the bebop language are the sonic bones from that continuum" the use of the
!ord 4negro4 is only relevant in the sense that psychologically" this is an
attempt to pull everything back to the %F3s again" and to celebrate the
psychology of the %F3s and %)3s as representing idiomatic and vibrational
certainty.
- What do you make of their inclusion of 7rnette Coleman into the canon" as
sort of the final !ordC
. ? think 7rnette Coleman%s use of the blues has been a vehicle that has
helped him. They include 7rnette Coleman" but they don%t include" for
instance" Cecil Taylor" !ho =tanley likes to talk of as including too much
7liver -essaien in his music. ?n saying that" =tanley is really helping us to see
ho! little he really kno!s about the Duropean art musics" and ho! little he
kno!s about -essaien%s music. ? think 7rnette Coleman%s Texas blues
+ualities have helped him. ? guess ? !ould also say the dynamics of the early
+uartets$ it%s kind of hard to deny. But then again" they%ve been able to deny so
much music. ? guess they could have simply denied all of 7rnette Coleman%s
music$ but ? think it%s the blues +ualityQ
- o! !ould you distinguish Cecil Taylor from -essaienC
. is language is totally original. Cecil Taylor !ould be the beginning of the
more propositional logics" !hich is actually the term ? use to talk about my
o!n music$ but his concept of unit structures" modular structures" modular
rhythmic and pitch structural material" could be called the beginning of
propositional compositional models. .nd his actual language on the piano is a
kind of a composite language that takes into account everything" a trans-
idiomatic language. To reduce it to 7liver -essiaen is in fact to misrepresent
his music.
- o! !ould you describe -essiaen%s musicC
. ?%d describe it as a polyharmonic music" image-logic music--i.e. birds--
maybe polytonal is better than polyharmonic. Kind of an extension" in a
strange kind of !ay" of Romantic music. ?t continues !ith the basic
propositions of the post-Wagner musics" but infuses that tradition !ith fresh
timbre spaces. ?t explores the extremities of that position" and makes inroads
to the linear space" using the same conceptual propositions of the post-Wagner
musics" !ith a more active rhythm" exploring fresh instrumental combinations
in conAunction !ith the response from the great *rench tradition. ?n fact" as
part of that response period of nationalism that occurred after World War ?"
and solidified by World War ??--not only in *rance" but ?%m thinking
=hostakovitch--the !hole period from '(33 to '(03 !as a period of
responding to the post-/ermanic musics" and the response basically !as a
response that included fresh timbre possibilities" i.e. ne! instruments" even
bringing in the saxophone" i.e. Ravel" #ebussy" lighter timbres" bringing in the
influence from !orld culture" i.e. !hole tone scales" -essiaen looking to the
!orld group" to =outh .merica" the great music of Chave@" for example.
-essiaen% music !ould take in a broader concept space" and react from a
broader !orld music perspective than Wagner. Taking that position" his !ork
!ould fulfill the dynamic implications of the modern /ermanic musics that
Wagner represents" !ithout changing the principle conceptual components of
that continuum" but rather fulfilling it to demonstrate !hat !e call the modern
musics.
- #o you have some sense of !here =tanley !as coming from !hen he made
that comparison bet!een Cecil and -essaienC What !as he trying to sayC
. ?%m not sureQbut ? recall conversations !ith =tanley !here he !ould say a
solo sounded like -essaien. The only thing ? could understand !as that he
!as talking about a particular voicing or rhythmic deviceQbut ? didn%t agree
!ith him then or no!. Certainly the modern vocabulary calls for" or !ould
include" non-tonal-ish devices" or devices !hich !ere trans-tonal-ish" but
trans-tonalism in itself doesn%t necessarily imply anything" since tonality !as
the big breakthrough for the Duropeans$ trans-tonality really transports the
music back to the !orld community again" opens up an a!areness of
possibilities that are multi-hierarchical" in terms of influence" and in terms of
possibilities. -r. Taylor%s decision to move from the tonal musics into !hat
?%ll call atonality--? don%t kno! ho! -r. Taylor !ould refer to the harmonic or
tonal evolution of his music--but that in itself can%t necessarily be reduced to
any one composer. That is to say" there most certainly could be a connection"
or one could make a connection bet!een Cecil%s music and -essaien%s" but
you could also make a connection bet!een Cecil and =travinsky" Cecil and
Bartok" Cecil and #vorak" Cecil and Dllington" Cecil and -ingus" Cecil and
erbie &ichols--not to mention the great !ork of #ave Brubeck" !ho Cecil
!ould listen to as !ell. What !e%re really describing is the evolution of
harmonic psychologies going outside of tonal music$ to simply cast Cecil%s
music as an attempt to parody -essaien" or for!ard components of
-essaien%s music" is a profound distortion. &ot to mention the actual music
itself is uni+ue" !hether !e%re talking of the early period of Cecil Taylor" the
period !hich" idiomatically and conceptually" had the attributes of a post-
bebop music that included phrase cluster configurations" a metric tempo" but
extreme harmonic compositions to the point of actually verging on atonality
any!ay" including the use of imbalanced compositional and structural
realities$ that early period of his music is totally uni+ue. Eater" the period
represented by Live at Montmartre" for instance" the trio !ith 1immy Eyons
and =unny -urray--that%s a very different music than the musics he !ould
demonstrate on the 4Jnit =tructures4 C#" !hich !ould be a more
propositional--or !hat ? !ould call a more modular structural logic" as
opposed to propositionalQGes" the !ord 4propositional4 !hen referring to
Cecil Taylor ? !ould thro! out" and in its place ? !ould put 4modular
structural logics"4 starting !ith Unit Structures. *rom that point" the velocity
and energy components of -r. Taylor%s music !ould be uni+ue" both in the
sense of his individual language and the concept space itself" not Aust as
virtuosity. ? !ould recommend that a person go back to !uits de la Fondation
Maeght" !ith =am Rivers and 1immy Eyons and .ndre! Cyrille playing !ith
Cecil Taylor. ?t%s a very different kind of concept space" it%s not a normal kind
of concept space$ Cecil%s al!ays playing. is playing becomes a kind of
generating fabric that everything is kind of put on top of in a !ay that%s really
different from 1ohn Coltrane or 7rnette Coleman. ?t !as not a se+uential
structure space music as much as this motivic space that expanded and
extended !ith its o!n uni+ue kind of energy +uality. ? think he%s a great man.
- Tying this up !ith #uke Dllington" !ho !e kno! !as a big influence on
Cecil" !e kno! that Cecil" as a composer" has developed a style of talking his
big bands through the charts rather than notating things for them. Gou
mentioned him as a big influence on you and your !ork. o! !ould you
distinguish your path as a composer from his" and ho! !ould you describe
both of those as part of the #uke Dllington continuumC
. ? !ould say that !e can look at -r. Dllington%s music as one that for!arded
the propositions of *letcher enderson" in terms of composition-
improvisation integration$ as a music that !ould establish the broadest
possible conceptual space for the creative composer and instrumentalist" the
understanding being that as an instrumentalist" Dllington is a great pianist. ?%ve
al!ays felt that his piano music !as overlooked because of his great successes
in composition$ as an improviser" he continued that tradition of real-time
experience on the instrument" and his !ork !ith his creative orchestra !ould
basically set the standard for .merican creative music" especially that
continuum of .merican creative music. .fter -r. Dllington" ? !ould focus on
the great !ork of Charlie -ingus as a logical-unlogical heir to that same
tradition. Tadd #ameron fits in that same tradition$ it doesn%t have the same
spectrum as -r. Dllington%s in the sense of completed compositions that
demonstrates the total spectrum of the music. -r. #ameron%s music" for me" is
interesting in the same !ay that !e talk ofQoh" maybe Ralph =hapeyQbut
that might not be the best exampleQ
- WhoC
. Ralph =hapey" the .merican composer !hose !ork is modern music" but it
has its o!n particular +ualities. ?t doesn%t challenge the la! structure" or the
+ualities of concept space that had been demonstrated$ at the same time" it is
uni+ue in terms of the problems that it tackles. Tadd #ameron%s !ork is
connected" in my opinion" to the solidification of !hat !e call bebop and that
period. ? !ould also say the great !ork of #i@@y /illespie and his creative
orchestras in the big band traditionQall of that music--Tadd #ameron" #i@@y
/illespie" Billy Dckstine" Darl ines a little bit--could be looked at as an area
of creative orchestra music that !ould be important for clarifying the modern
platform" !hat !e call the bebop musics" post!ar demonstration of extended
chromaticism" harmonic complexity" uni+ue integration bet!een composition
and improvisation.
The music of Charlie -ingus" and the reason !hy" for me" it%s the next point
after #uke Dllington" is because he !ould take the post-Dllington propositions
and extend them to theater musics" to the !orld music platform in a different
!ay. is !ork !ith poetry" in narrative musics" is uni+ue. 4The Dye of the
urricane4Qhis song form musics" his combination logic musics" putting
several different compositions together" to fuse music strategies" !ould be
uni+ue. is intervallic musics--compositions like 4Dclipse4 and 4Weird
&ightmare4 !ould fulfill the extremities of the post-Dllington conceptual
propositions. *or that reason--not to mention that as an instrumentalist" he !as
a virtuoso" !ho also" like Cecil Taylor" in the latter part of his career" !ould
adopt oral music strategies" !ould demonstrate a dynamically uni+ue music
universe--including his electronic music" !hat little he did. 4Dye of the
urricane4%s electronic components !ould be more image logics" adaptations
of electronics as opposed to the !ork of some of the post-Webern electronic
composers. -aybe not as elaborate as the 4pure4 electronic composers" but in
the end it !as a uni+ue adaptation of the medium" in the same !ay that
HarXse" !ho did not have opportunities to have experiences in electronic
music that !e !ould have hoped for" created 42oVme Dlectroni+ue"4 a uni+ue
piece of music as far as ?%m concerned. Charlie -ingus" !hose efforts in this
area !ere not extensiveQeven so" the little !ork he did ? value greatly.
- Gou kno!" -ingus" ? recall" also !as pretty keen on oral transmissions of
music rather than notation.
. ?n his later period" not in his earlier period.
- ? read this article" an intervie! !ith Cecil in /erman" !here he !as being
real adamant about the superiority of his method of talking people through
their parts rather than notation" because he felt they got the music a !hole lot
more into their systems. Gou%re a guy !ho%s really taken notation far" and !ho
relies on it in a !ay that puts off a lot of Duropean players" and maybe a lot of
players" and dra!s criticism. =o ho! !ould you" again" distinguish the path
you chose to take" maybe specifically !ith your use of notation" do!n that
Dllington--ingus continuum" from Cecil%s or -ingus%s oral methodsC
. ? !ould position my !ork as such6 #uke Dllington%s music as a fresh
synthesis music demonstrating composition and improvisation$ Charlie
-ingus%s as a post-Dllington music demonstrating the extremes of that
position" plus extending into ne! global music domains$ Cecil Taylor is a
point of definition for modular structural devices" moving into the oral
tradition" but even using that material modularly$ and ? see my !ork as a point
of definition for propositional logics" in !hat ?%ve come to call a tri-centric
music$ propositional logics as a !ay to talk about the connections in my
music--in the house of the circle" the house of the rectangle" the house of the
triangle. Tri-centric in the sense of the connection bet!een domains" bet!een
the Tri-Centric !ritings and the actual compositions and the integration of
those components. 2ropositional in the sense of in the house of the circle" a
concept of language music as a point of definition for mutable logic syntax
geometry as a !ay to create improvisatory language in the house of the circle.
*rom that point" expanding the same information to the house of the triangle"
to the architectonic domain$ and from that point to create languages based on
syntax and logic$ propositional in the sense of defining strategies based on the
t!elve components of my system$ from that point" propositional in the sense
of defining language syntax" then architectonic syntax. *rom that point"
defining synthesis integration point of definition !ith respect to ritual and
ceremony and philosophical components.
=o ho! !ould ? distinguish my !ork from Cecil Taylor%sC *or me" Cecil
Taylor%s music demonstrates a modular structural space that !ould extend into
!orld music vis-T-vis santaria" !ith an occult component that is holistic$ my
!ork" for me" demonstrates a multi-hierarchical thought unit that is tri-centric"
and !hen ? talk of it in this time period" ? talk of a tri-centric music that
demonstrates propositional constructs" syntactical constructs$ tri-centric as a
thought unit that demonstrates a mechanism" or structural mechanism" or
active mechanism$ and finally" tri-centric as a thought unit that demonstrates
an occult position--!hich is to say" no !onder ?%m broke.
- .ctually" ? did follo! that very !ell" because ?%ve been through it !ith
youQ
. 7f course.
- Qbut !e need to come back to it !hen !e actually talk about your !ork as
the sole focus to sort of unpack and decode it. But !hat ?%m !ondering about
at this point is specifically Aust the use of notation. Would you say that the use
of conventional notation is part of your fulfillment of the house of the
rectangleC
. Ges.
- .nd that its relationship--? mean in other !ords the uni+ueness of your use
of conventional notation lies in its relationship to the house of the circle and
the house of the triangleC
. The house of the rectangle. But let%s look at that. ?n the house of the
rectangle" !hich in my system is really the house of targeted intention. When
!e talk of notation in my music" !e%re not talking of one kind of anything. ?
have" in the 033-something compositions that ?%ve !orked !ith" ?%ve sought to
demonstrate traditional notational models" my o!n systems of notation" and
targeted verbal directives. =o my !ork in the house of the rectangle can%t be
reduced to one parameter of notation.
- =o !hat !ould your response be to Cecil%s or anyone%s decision to be so
orally focused" and also maybe -ingus%s" and even Dllington%s" in the sense
that he used to sort of make a composition in a day and then Aust sort of talk it
over to his bandC
. ? have that component in my music as !ell$ ?%ve tried to--? see my music as
a point of definition for the trans-idiomatic musics" and the trans-idiomatic
processes" and the trans-vibrational spiritual lane. By that" ?%m saying that
there has been no one !ay for me" no one methodology$ in fact" the system
that ?%ve built has t!elve different !ays. =o as far as your +uestion is
concerned" ? respect the gentlemen that !e%ve mentioned and their
methodologies and the !ay they%ve developed their music. When speaking of
my o!n music" ? !ould say that many of those arguments don%t apply to my
!ork" because" for one thing" ?%m not interested in the 4democratic4 or
4conservative4 party$ ?%m not interested in notation or improvisation$ my !ork"
on the occult level" ? speak of as navigation through form. By that ? Aust mean
that ?%ve put together different components based on !hatever the proAect is. ?
disagree !ith the idea that improvisation or oral information is any more
advanced than notated or totally fixed information$ ? think those are the
arguments of the t!entieth century" and that in the t!enty-first century" !ith
the tri-centric thought unit" that those arguments aren%t relevant to !hat ?%m
trying to do. .s far as ?%m concerned" the state of freedom" and the experiences
in the house of the circle" are only one component of my music" and that%s
!hat differentiates me from the great trans-Duropean tradition and the great
trans-.frican tradition" in terms of preferential focus for any one domain.
- 7kay. =un Ra.
. *or me" =un Ra" like Charlie -ingus--and ? guess =un Ra !ould come
before Charlie -ingus$ they%re really around the same time" but =un Ra is
slightly before him. =un Ra" again" !ould be an artist" a great visionary !hose
!ork for!ards the post-Dllington and !orld culture implications of the fourth
and fifth restructural cycles. .ctually" ? !ould even go back and say of the
first restructural cycle. ?n his music is demonstrated extended improvisation"
collective improvisation$ a composition like 4=trange =trings4 demonstrates a
fresh timbre-logic state" integration of !orld music instrumentation$ =un Ra%s
music is a point of definition for composite aesthetics" reconnecting back into
.frica" not being afraid of Durope as !ell$ =un Ra !ould expand his !ork
into the house of the triangle and create a ritual and ceremonial music"
including an occult position. Dven more so than -ingus" =un Ra%s music
!ould demonstrate a uni+ue creative universe that--and !hen ? say even more
than -ingus" ? only mean that compositionally" this guy tackled problems
from every direction. .nd like Dllington" he kept his same group of people
together" had a family music" had a mysticism" reconnected back into Dgypt"
!as not afraid of the !orld. =un Ra%s music !ould bring fresh perspectives to
percussion music" !ould be a part of sound mass evolution$ as an
instrumentalist" even more than Dllington" demonstrated a uni+ue music on the
piano that encompassed the total spectrum of the music. e !ould also be
among the first .frican .merican visionaries to include electronics$ he !as a
multi-instrumentalist" playing organ and synthesi@er. Dvery parameter" every
+uadrant of his music !ould demonstrate some fresh component of radiance"
!hether it !as instrumentation" ritual and ceremonyQplus" like a /emini" he
kept changing the name of his ensemble. =o his !ork !as the essence of
.merican and .frican .merican and trans-.frican and finally !orld music6
al!ays gro!ing and expanding and changing" and it functioned under his
definitions. ?t !as a mystical music. e also included dancers and singers$ he
!as a point of definition for multimedia presentation" and redefining that in a
!ay that encompassed Dllington and !ent back to before Dllington to the
!orld of Haudeville musics. *letcher endersonQ
- .nd also out to Eex Baxter" this Ea!rence Welk kind of easy listening
stuffQ
. GesI .nd he had the insight to include Walt #isney as a part of his
components" and a lot of people didn%t understand that. ?%ve talked !ith many
musicians !ho had a very negative reaction to his inclusion of and respect for
Walt #isney. .s far as ?%m concerned" that !as a brilliant aesthetic move of
=un Ra%s" because of course Walt #isney is an .merican pioneer and
visionary.
- #o you see =un Ra as part of the continuum of figures shunned by the
.frican .merican communityC
. Dxactly" and this is taking place even in this time period. ? hear the Ken
Burns film coming out doesn%t include him. What a tragedy" for a guy that
great. &or does it include /eorge Russell. /eorge Russell" as far as ?%m
concerned" is in the tradition of the restructuralist .frican .merican creative
composer visionaries. is !ork !ould principally focus on timbre-logic
components of the music" and he is responsible for the emphasis of lydian
scalar strategies" !hich connects into the !orld music community. is
decision to systemati@e his methodologies !ould be a point of definition for
the creative music continuum" and make it possible for guys like me to start
thinking in terms of the importance of systemati@ing their methodologies" and
of moving to!ard a literary parameter as a component of the music !ork.
/eorge Russell !ould later evolve a rhythmic component from the rhythmic
system of his music. is !ork is essential in seeking to understand the
evolution of the trans-.frican" and trans-.frican .merican" and finally the
trans-.merican music continuum.
- =o let%s polish this off !ith the ..C-.
. Well" -ike" let me first say thank you. The ..C-. ? think the ..C- !ill
one day come to be seen as one of the important Aunctures in time in .merican
music" especially in the history of trans-.frican .merican musics. The
..C- comprised a group of .frican .merican men and !omen !ho !ere
dedicated to responding to the composite challenge of creative music in a !ay
that has historical implications. ?n this organi@ation" there !as never an
attempt to define one !ay for the individual" or one idiom that is correct for
the individual. Rather it !as a platform that !as mutually supportive of the
individual and that encouraged research and exploration and fraternalism. ?
believe that !hen the true histories are !ritten that the ..C- !ill come to be
vie!ed for !hat it !as" that being the second Auncture after Reconstruction"
the first being from the '993s to the '(F3s" that !ould define the fresh
perspectives for .frican .merican and finally !orld music dynamics for the
third millennium.
.bout the individuals in the ..C-6 first" -uhal Richard .brams. ? think he%s
a great man" and ?%m Aust totally shocked that as !e enter into the third
millennium that so little of his !ork is kno!n or understood or appreciated.
e%s a great composer" a post-Dllington composer !hose !ork is uni+ue$ he
has theater music" he !as doing plays in the %;3s. is !ork has a post-=un Ra
component to it. is !ork is trans-idiomatic in the sense that he has a body of
all-notated musics" all improvisatory musics$ he has a music that contains the
oral tradition and compositions that mix together in various !ays uni+ue to
him composition and improvisation. .s an instrumentalist" -uhal
demonstrates the total history of the music in a !ay that is connected to
Dllington. e !as a pivotal figure in bringing musicians together in Chicago"
and for that alone he occupies a special place in terms of his understanding of
social responsibility and his desire to be a part of the community and to help
young guys like myself to go back and study and reevaluate Eouis
.rmstrong%s music. -y relationship to .rmstrong as a young guy !as Aust
surface$ ? couldn%t figure out !hat all the talk !as about. ?t !as only after
studying !ith -uhal Richard .brams and learning from Eeo =mith that ?
!ould gain an insight into -r. Dllington and 1elly Roll -orton and composers
? had missed as a young guy.
Eeo =mith. ? think Eeo =mith is another of the great restructural masters of
this time period !hose music has Aust been pushed aside$ there%s been no
attempt to understand Eeo =mith" but" like me" he !as interested in building a
music system" not Aust a music. e !as the first of the musicians from my
generation to !rite about his music. is concept of sound units !ould be the
first of the methodologies that !ould be defined in a very clear !ay. Eeo
=mith has a body of notated musics that encompasses everything from his
o!n system" like mine. ?n fact" anything that ? could say about myself ? could
say that Eeo =mith has a complimentary music that comes !ith its o!n uni+ue
+ualities. e%s demonstrated a body of musics and a universe of perspectives
that should be essential" and !ill" in the future" be essential" once the
information is made available" for creative musicians and composers in the
third millennium.
- =o maybe !hat !e%re saying for academic research is that the information
is there" but has yet to be explored.
. Dxactly. Roscoe -itchell. When ? got out of the army" Roscoe -itchell had
already found his o!n music. ? mentioned before that !e !ere at Wilson
1unior College together. Dven then" as a stylist on the alto saxophone" he had
his o!n music" apart from 7rnette Coleman. e had already found something
special" his o!n sound" his o!n rhythm" his o!n !ay of playing on changes.
When ? got out of the army" the record 4=ound4 had already been recorded" ?
think. That record alone" had he done nothing else--Aust as !e might say 1ohn
Coltrane" had he died after 4/iant =teps4 !ould be considered a great
restructural saxophonist !ho brought something fresh to the music in terms of
harmonic dynamics" compositional dynamics" sheets of sound" Aust !hat he
did !ith the instrument in terms of vocabulary syntax--this !as also true of
Roscoe -itchell by the time of the record 4=ound.4 =ince then" Roscoe
-itchell has gone on to build a uni+ue universe of musics that isolate different
conceptual problems" methodological devices$ Roscoe -itchell is a
multiinstrumentalist !hose !ork !ould define contemporary
multiinstrumentalism in the %;3s$ before him" if you played flute" clarinet" and
saxophone" that !as enough. .fter Roscoe -itchell" you had to play the
!hole spectrum of the !ood!ind family and then also make your o!n
instruments. Roscoe -itchell has produced a uni+ue chamber music" body of
musics$ his orchestral musics are uni+uely his o!n$ his improvisatory musics
are very different from mine$ he !orks out his improvisations in a very
different kind of !ay. Then !hen you hear his solo concerts" they%re !orked
out very differently than the language music strategies that ? !ould !ork out
for myself. ? Aust think !hen the true histories of the music are !ritten" this is
another guy !ho cannot simply be looked at as a good instrumentalist"
although he is that and more$ or a composer of particular compositions$ rather"
he has produced a universe of music.
- Borah Bergman !as telling me--he%s played a lot !ith Roscoe lately" you
kno!--and he said Roscoe had told him recently 4no! my star is rising"4
because of those stories in the !e" -or1 Times" and 3o"n Beat.
. e%s like ,9 years old" and finally his star is rising. ? only hope his star !ill
keep rising and that they !ill give him more opportunities. e has vocal
musics" theater musicsQand" of course" all of that is separate from his !ork
!ith the .rt Dnsemble of Chicago" one of the greatest groups in music history.
That group is a direct affirmation of Roscoe%s input as !ell.
session 8
- #o you have anything to say about any differences you might have had
!ith the ..C-C #id you have an experience there of people gro!ing apart"
having clashes" or !hateverC
. There are many people !ho might feel that ?%ve separated from the ..C-
and that ? have some individual complexity" but in fact that%s never been the
case. Rather" my life has Aust taken me into a different space" and ?%ve gro!n
up and !ant to do my o!n music$ and Aust the events of my life have kind of
seen me go into my o!n space. But in fact !hen ? think about my life" ?%ve
basically in the past )3 years built on the information ? learned in Chicago
from the ..C-. ?f ?%m not on a given concert by the Dxperimental Band in
this time period" it%s only because ? don%t !ork very much" and !hen ? !ork ?
!ant to do my o!n music. =o ? can understand ho! in some +uarters my
decision to be by myself might be seen as a break !ith the ..C-. There
have been different periods in time--say" in the last ', years !here ?%ve heard
people express that ?%ve had a problem !ith the ..C- and have
disconnected--but that doesn%t really describe !hat has happened. ?t%s more
Aust that ?%m not F," ?%m ,," ?%ve evolved my o!n processes" have had my o!n
experiences" and !ould like to do my o!n !ork. But my feeling about those
guys has remained consistently one of love" friendship and respect.
- o! about 1oseph 1armanC We didn%t mention him.
. ? think 1oseph 1arman" again" is an example of a restructural visionary
master !hose !ork has had a direct impact on me on many different levels. ?t
!as 1oseph 1arman !ho opened up correspondences into theater musics$ his
4&on-cognitive .spects of the City4 !as very important to me" not to mention
the live concerts ? !ent to. e%s a great composer" a great multiinstrumentalist$
he%s evolved a very special music that is particular to him and his interests.
.nd like Eeo =mith" -uhal Richard .brams and Roscoe -itchell" his !ork
has not been dealt !ith. e !as al!ays very interested in multimedia musics"
and many of his !orks !ould define" for me" fresh possibilities for the future
in terms of interaction dynamics" musical language and syntax. ? think 1oseph
is a very spiritual and mystical person" a difficult guy to understand on one
hearing$ his !ork is the kind of effort that re+uires sustained listening. There
are many different levels to it. But ? have nothing but respect for this guy" ?%ve
learned a lot from him.
.lso" Eeroy 1enkins. e%s another example of a dedicated .merican master
!ho has done so much but received so little from our country in terms of
ackno!ledgment or !ork possibilities. Eeroy 1enkins is a post-=tuff =mith
violinist !ho has advanced creative violin playing into the modern age. .s a
composer he has operasQ
- is daughter !as at Wesleyan. #id you meet her thereC
. 7h yes$ ? sa! her only once. We used to be very close" Eeroy and ?$ ? used
to be very close !ith his family. ?n the past ', years everyone has had to deal
!ith their particular dynamics" so ? don%t see him or his family very much any
more. But yes" Chantille is her name" she !ent to Wesleyan.
*inally" ? !ould mention /eorge Ee!is as an example of a restructural
visionary musician !hose !ork has yet to be talked about. /eorge Ee!is is
the most incredible virtuoso trombonist that ?%ve ever heard in my life. e can
play anything$ he%s e+ual to /lobokar" he%s e+ual to any trombone player
!ho%s ever lived. .s a composer" he has a broad spectrum of !orks that are
trans-idiomatic$ /eorge Ee!is is a point of definition for modern electronic
music. ?n that domain he has demonstrated an interactive electronic music" his
4Hoyager4 musics" !hich are second to none. e%s Aust a very special
composer. Eike most of the musicians from the ..C-" he%s demonstrated and
demonstrates a trans-idiomatic music experience" !orking in different
domains. ?f the subAect is chord changes and bebop" /eorge Ee!is could
demonstrate if he !anted to a music that !ould make 11 1ohnson back up.
That%s ho! efficient and proficient he is in that medium" and yet it%s only one
aspect of !hat he does. This is a guy !ho%s played !ith Count Basie" as !ell
as -uhal Richard .brams and Roscoe -itchell. .s a scholar" /eorge Ee!is
is e+ual to Eeo =mith" and it doesn%t get any better than Eeo =mith in terms of
scholarship. Eeo is a!esome" and so is /eorge$ they keep abreast of so many
different areas. ? miss being in their company more" because they !ould keep
me straight !ith !hat books to read and !hat to keep up on" because they%re
really omnivorous intellectuals.
- This seems like the time to start getting into your music" and also your
intellectual interests in books and so on" both together. -aybe the best !ay
for me to do it !ould be" since !e%ve been through my book on you and a
couple of papers over the last decade" to start !ith !hat !e haven%t covered"
!hat you%re doing right no!" namely the operas and the /host Trance musics"
and to kind of !ork back from them into your system.
. ? think it !ould be easier for me to go from the early part to !hat ?%m doing
no!. ? think it !as in '(;; !hen ? broke into the fresh space and found a !ay
for myself" because that%s !hat ? !as looking for6 a !ay !here ? could
contribute to this incredible movement that luck made me a part of. ?t !as in
'(;; that ? started to build the components of my music. ?t !as after the
improvisatory solo concert" !hen ? started to sketch a different !ay" that ?
!ould really enter into the universe of my o!n music. =tarting then" the
language musics !ould become a genesis component of my experiences in the
house of the circle. ?t !ould be at that point" in seeking to better understand
the +uestion of identity" that ? !ould start to isolate the different components
of my music. .s Eeo =mith and ? have al!ays talked about and agreed on" the
act of defining a methodology and a !ay of procedure !ould separate our
!ork from everything" !ould give us the possibility to define something and
!alk a!ay from it and go back to it and read it. That !as important.
- When you say 4identity"4 do you mean something like the proposition of
existential identity" !here you start expanding out and defining yourself step-
by-step in a ne! !ayC
. By 4identity4 in this context ?%m talking about identity for musical materials"
for ideas and compositions" identity !ith respect to 4!hat am ? thinkingC4 =o
identity in the house of the rectangle$ from a tri-centric perspective" in my
system" involves taking materials from the house of the circle" the t!elve
geometric units$ and" in the house of the rectangle" using that information to
define architectonic possibilities that could give me the possibility to have a
creative experience !ithin a defined concept space.
- #id you call it the house of the circle back thenC
. &o. When ? first started to build my system" ? Aust spoke in terms of !hat ?
called language music.
- 7ne language being the trill" one the long tone" and so onQ
. Ges. With the language musics" it !as a !ay to have improvisatory real-
time experiences that !ould give me the hope of not bumping into the same
idea" or using the same devices.?t !ould help me as an improviser have
different things to !ork !ith.
- .nd your system chart heading 4?dentity =tate4 is the last column on the far
right" !hich suggests an end point of definition after the processes of the
language units" then the geometric units" finally producing the identity state.
. Ges. The house of the triangle in my music system is the house of synthesis
logics. *or me" this symbol is about integration" or synthesis. /oing back to
the house of the rectangle" the house of ideas" or architectonic structures" the
Tri)Axium 5ritings 5Braxton%s three-volume set of books on his 4re-
philosophical system"4 published by *rog 2eak 2ress" '(9B> !ould make the
combined information connection tri-centric. The Tri)Axium 5ritings !ould
be a component of !hat ? !ould later come to call 4tri-centric.4 By that" ?%m
only saying that the concept of 4tri-centric4 !ould involve more than simply
music compositions" and more than simply ideas" but rather a systemic context
to apply that information 8and those connections:. That%s !hy !hen ? talk of
my !ork" and !hen ? use the !ord 4tri-centric"4 ?%m referring to !hat ? call a
4thought unit"4 as opposed to a composition" or one methodology. The idea of
a 4tri-centric thought unit4 is a !ay of expressing the interconnection bet!een
the Tri)Axium 5ritings--!hich !as an attempt to define a !orld perspective
based on particular focuses--and specific examples of that focus" and then
+uestions and ans!ers" or dialectical extensions of that focus" and the
music<architectonic system and symbolic ritual holistic system. The Tri)
Axium 5ritings !ould give me an opportunity to have a context of ideas and
perspectives" !hich is in the house of the rectangle. This information !ould
also include schematic modules that reduce the philosophical particular
8target: arguments into 4transpersonal4 logic associations. 5These schematics
resemble the diagrams students used to parse grammatical elements of
sentences" only in this case the circuitry is directed to!ard abstract social and
philosophical<metaphysical concepts" charting their relationships>. The Tri)
Axium 5ritings !ould also be a context !here ? !ould define my o!n terms"
and create my o!n language. This for me !as not a one-dimensional
experience" but !as rather a chance to establish the philosophical foundation
of my music in the sense of given specifics to a general subAect area$ internal
specific subAect perspectives related to that subAect area$ +uestions and
ans!ers on one hand" and then coming back to the integration schematics"
!hich is actually in the next triangle set under that--to define my o!n set of
terms" and to establish my o!n emotional and feeling perspectives about the
information ? !as !riting about.
- .s ? recall" your first definition of Tri-.xium !as dra!ing from the past in
the present to define the future.
. Ges.
- =o it had something to do !ith the tricentric nature of time.
. Thank you. Which is to say" for me" the tricentric musics are a
transtemporal thought unit that integrates past" present" and future. The
tricentric thought unit is a transtemporal thought unit that brings together fast"
medium" and slo!. The tricentric thought unit is a mechanism for individual"
group" and finally spiritual unification. =o three to the third po!er on its o!n
plane in the third house" or the house of thoughtQ
- ?t sounds a lot like 2lato%s ideas" abstract pure forms that all the material
stuff comes from.
. What ? tried to do" and !hat ?%ve been trying to do is have a vie!point that
respects navigation through form" through life" and inside of that to build a
construct that integrates my experiences on the various planes" so that does
connect me to the mystic Duropeans" the mystic .fricans" and the mystic
.fricans.
- =o the Tri)Axium 5ritings--and ? remember these three components in the
!ritings themselves" !here you had the +uestions and ans!ers" and the other
specifics and the generalities" the ideas involved. #id they issue forth directly
forth from this concept of timeC
. .s a young man" ? !asn%t as a!are--? mean ? have the perspective no! of
thirty years to go back and try to understand all that. When ? !as a young guy"
? Aust !anted to do the best that ? could do" and ? understood at some point that
? needed to integrate my !orld perspective" to have a better understanding of
!here ? !as coming from" because everything !as changing in the %;3s. The
Tri)Axium 5ritings came out in the %B3s" so ? had the vantage point of going
back to the %;3s" but ? kne! ? needed to integrate that information. The
2omposition !otes !ould be the next degree of the thought system" looking
only at systemic notions based on the compositions.
- Gou !rote those after the Tri)Axium 5ritingsC
. Ges.
- =o you started in %;; !ith the language musics" and you !eren%t really
thinking of the house of the circle or anything like that yet" that !as later" in
retrospectC
. ? !as thinking of this in the %;3s. ? !anted to find a !ay that !ould help me
negotiate a music in real time in the house of the circle. .lso" ? !anted to find
a !ay that !ould help me to generate compositions that !ould be relevant to
!hat ? !as learning. &eedless to say" =tockhausen !as a profound influence"
and so !as the great !ork of 7rnette Coleman" and ? felt ? needed to find in
the late %;3s and early %B3s some !ay" some sense of myself that could help
me from becoming a clone" and that could help me sort out my o!n interests.
=o the Tri)Axium 5ritings" or the early language musics" !ould be a !ay to
take in experiences in real time and then parlay that information into the house
of the rectangle" as far as ideas--because you%re improvising" and !hile you%re
improvising you get ideas and you have memory. .nd memory is in the house
of the rectangle. What ? !anted to do !ith those memories is take some of
those ideas and use them to fashion an architectonic universe that
compositionally could bring me back to some aspect of that original
experience 8memory:...
- Gou kno! this really reminds me of the !ay" !hen !e talk about 2lato and
all that" and the !holeQyou kno!" ? kno! a lot more about Duropean history
than ? do .frican" and the ancient /reek music !as categori@ed as #ionysian
and .pollonian. =o you had this duality bet!een the improvised" !hich came
from the Dast" the aulos players and the thinkers" the composers$ and the
earliest notated Western music is /reek.
. .nd your book" by the !ay" put it on me. ? thank the creator of the universe
that ? met you" -ike effley" and those days in the sno! in Dugene. Gou have
put together so many things for me in your !ork$ ?%ve learned so much from
you. But" in fact" in the book you did" you started to define !hat that !as" and
? !as shocked. We tend to think that this moment in time is uni+ue" and !e
think !hat !e%re dealing !ith is something nobody else ever dealt !ith--only
to discover that in fact it%s all al!ays been there.
- .nd /reece !as kind of the bridge bet!een .frica and .sia and Durope6
right in the middle there" !ith influences from all of them. .nd it !as the
cradle of the West" you kno!. .nd ?%m thinking too that !hen the /ermanic
barbarians came do!n" they didn%t really get literate themselves until about
'333 ..#. .t that point" Western chant !as not !ritten do!n" until around
then. =o !e%re talking about an oral tradition of material that !as embedded in
people" and they !ould improvise on it a little bit too" Aust like people
improvise on notated material. But the !hole proAect of !riting do!n music in
notes didn%t really take off until around that time" and it too !as a !ay of
codifying in a traditional oral" mutable kind of space" and then codifying it to
push it up further into ne! areas.
. Ges.
- .nd your experienceQyou started out as an improviser !ho got into the
notational devices to capture something about the improvisation and push it
up into a ne! improvisation" or a ne! musical experience. =o !e have the
language musics starting" getting into your first codifications of open improvs.
What came nextC
. *irst" establishing the house of the circle--!hich !ould be the genesis
component of my music system on the tri-plane formed by circle language
musics$ and then" under the circle" t!o more circles6 intuition" and mutable
logic transient states 8and<or transitory strategies:. Eooking at the first circle"
the circle of experience" and memory" ? !ould take ideas from real-time
improvisation and then look for compositions that !ould demonstrate that
same logic. ?t !ould be at that point that ? !ould start !hat ? !ould call the
formula musics" integrating components from real time" using numerology"
friends% initials" chess moves--all of that !ould be in the house of the triangle"
looking for !ays to integrate method. Thus !ould begin the compositional
musics.
? separated myself from the earlier compositions" !hich !ere attempts to !rite
bebop compositions" in the army. ?n that time period ? !as very excited about
finding fresh harmonic se+uences T la 4/iant =teps"4 so ? !ould have a body
of musics !ith fresh harmonic connections. 7nce ? got in the ..C-" ? began
to generate compositional paradigms from the improvisatory experiences ?
had in the language musics" and the formula musics !ould come out of that.
.fter that" the schematic musics$ that being a defined time space" and boxing
in language-state directives in a linear single or multiple time space. The piece
for four soprano saxophones 8)B:" the piece for four pianos 8';: are examples
of schematic musics" extracting from improvisation !ith respect to reducing
an improvisation to one of the key t!elve languages" and Aust making
schematic structures. .nd from there" evolving that idea into the dimensional
structures" !hich !ould start to factor in color. The basic concept !as that"
more and more" ? tried to extend defined components into the compositions.
Eater ? factored in spatial dynamics. 7f course" ? !as so interested in
=tockhausen$ !hatever he did" ? tried to find some e+uivalent that ? could do
that could be mine. ? !as in a!e then as no! of the great man. Thus" in the
house of the triangle" ? !ould transpose strategies from the circle to the
rectangle involving both conceptual and<or syntactical logics that !ould later
become an architectonic logic" !hich ? !ould then start to expand from
different premises6 formula musics" in this context" being the integration of
different compositional and nonmusical elements$ and later schematic musics"
the positing of timespace and design as formal schemes to be filled !ith
musical ideas.
?n that period ? tried the 4golden section4 and different compositional
techni+ues. ? discovered that you could get the same results" or that ? could
achieve a result that !as meaningful to me" by evolving different kinds of
premises as far as decision-making inside of schematic empty time spaces and
positioning different focuses" and from that point adding color as an intuitive
mechanism" expressive in the beginning$ and then later" synthesis in the sense
of dance and movement. 1ust trying to develop that line and also express it
compositionally. =o that !ould be the route of my evolution there.
Then in the house of the triangle" ? !ould start to look for holistic strategies"
!ays to integrate idea" real-time experiences. Composition '') !ould be an
example of an attempt to demonstrate a holistic model 5it features not only
musical performance but a story staged before a visual backdrop>.
ouse of the triangle" ritual and ceremonial musics" the beginning of
storytelling.
- Would you say that piece !as your first step into the opera space" '')C
. &o" ?%d say 4Composition &o. B;"4 the one called 4*or Trio"4 !ould be the
beginning of composite integration. ?t !as the beginning of the synthesis
musics" the real house of the triangle established on its o!n plane.
- ? remember all this from the book.
. ?%m lucky to be talking to you" because--
- But ? !ould never have connected it to the kernel of the opera$ ? !ould
have thought it !ould be '').
. B;" for me" !as the beginning of a composite aesthetic approach" one that
integrated vocali@ation" modular notation" color" !ith improvisationQ
- That !as your first modular notation.
. Ges. .t the time" ? didn%t kno! ? !as going to go into opera" but ? kne! ?
!as looking for a broader reality.
- Well" by the time you got to '')" !eren%t you thinkingQ!ell" even before
that" !hat !as that composition that &ickie did all the slides forC
. (;. That !as an example of the ne! composite aesthetic attempts to
integrate something that !ould function as something connected to the actual
music logic and strategy.
- =o it !as right around this period then that you really did start thinking in
terms ofQ!ell" since you al!ays !ere interested in composite reality" this
!as the first time it started breaking through into actually representing
composite reality.
. Ges" and ? !as also very influenced by 1oseph 1arman" !ho had by '(B3
created a !hole poetic universe" a !hole ritual and ceremonial universe" that
has never been !ritten about. ? !as starting to see that ? could move into that
direction as !ell. =o ? !anted to integrate color" and movement" and later
intention.
- That%s !hen you came up !ith all the charts of the movementsC
. Ges. That !hole period for me" the basic focus !as on looking for !ays to
integrate components outside of sound outside the composition.
- But mean!hile all this is also kind of dictated by !hatever opportunities
are coming up in the real !orld for proAects.
. That%s right. .nd it !as also dictated by !hat ? had been learning about the
real !orld. =tockhausen !as doing 4?nori"4 1ohn Cage !as !orking !ith
-erce Cunningham$ there !ere many people !orking in multimedia. Cage
!as doing happenings. e had been doing happenings in %,0 and %,," so by the
time ? embarked upon this" there !ere many people ? could look to to learn
from. ? !as learning from arry 2artch" one of my heroes then and no!$ he
had already !alked this road and gone to another road. i say that to keep an
honest perspective. When ? embarked on this direction" ? !as on the shoulders
of great masters !ho had already brought forth compositions and ideas that
could help a young guy like me.
- Was the poem you !rote that 1eanne Eee sang the first time you ever !rote
!ords of your o!n for a pieceC
. ? had been doing a little !riting" dabbling in poetry in that period. =o ? !as
very happy to do the piece for 1eanne Eee. Then suddenly no more
opportunities came up" and ? Aust kind of stopped. =o there%s been an
imbalance in my catalogue of !orks. ?%d like to hope in this next decade to
have more experiences and do more !ork in the song form tradition. But the
composition for 1eanne Eee !as an exception to the norm" and that period of
!riting poetry !as a brief one that ?%d like to get back to. ?n fact" ? must say"
-ike effley" in this period ?%m starting to have dreams that ? even remember.
=o ?%d like to dra! on these intuitive things.
- Gou kno! ho! you mentioned that !hen you improvise you get ideas and
memoriesC ? find !hen ? improvise in a practice session for a long time that ?
specifically recall dreams that ?%d totally forgotten. The process of improvising
someho!Q
. QreAuvenates your memory. 7nly in the last couple of !eeks have ? found
myself !aking up and remembering dreams. .nd they%ve been pretty far out
lately" for !hatever reason.
- The psychic terrain%s undergoing a shiftC
. That%s ho! it feels$ ?%m having a lot of dreams about my mother" and my
family$ far out kind of dreams" actually. .nd ?%m kind of reAoicing in it"
although that might not be the right !ord. But ?%m paying attention to it in a
different kind of !ay. Jp until the last couple of !eeks" ? can%t say that ?%ve
been dealing !ith dreams in a real kind of !ay. ?n the %B3s" during the
attempts to demonstrate composite aesthetic types of music" like (;" ? !as
only functioning from an intellectual a!areness that it !as time to start
expanding the domain of decisions that ? !as !orking !ith" and to have more
inclusive music strategies" and to build a system of movement.
- ? notice in your 2omposition !otes" sometimes you%ll have a little poetic
!ay of describing a composition--like" an island !here the !ind is blo!ing
and there%s a storm or somethingQ
. That%s another thing about the 2omposition !otes and the decision to !rite
about the music and" in !riting about it" you can separate from it and it%s still
there. .fter doing R amount of analysis" ? found that ? could not really express
!hat ? !anted to express using a conventional relationship to !hat ? !ould
call conventional analysis" in that my analysis !ould have to become more
and more poetic if ? !as going to tap !hat ? !as really trying to find.
- Gou kno!" this is an evolution that the /erman philosophers also had. Eike
&iets@cheC They started out in college !ith the technical Aargon of philosophy
that they inherited. eidegger too. .t the end of their lives" they started
!riting stuff that read more like poetry.
. That%s far out. ?t Aust goes to sho!" there%s nothing ne! under the sun. ?
!ould arrive at a point !here" in the 2omposition !otes--that%s !hy" for me" it
!as so important to do that--and that%s !hy" !hen you say poetry" ? find
myself thinking" 4.h" that%s the other part of the three that ? haven%t evolved.4 ?
have Tri)Axium 5ritings" a philosophical system$ ? have 2omposition !otes" a
methodological" architectonic system$ but ? don%t have a poetic system. &o!
my plan is to !rite the story of =hala" the story of .shmentonQ
- But you%ve already started that" rightC ? mean" the librettiC
. But ? see that in another category. ? see the dialogues of the opera as
representing something else. ? !ould like to enter into the !orld of poetry$ ?%m
not there yetQ
- Eike the myth of each one of those charactersC
. &o" for me that !ould be something separate. 2oetry" Aust in terms of
!riting poetry" for me" !ould complete the circle on the tri-plane in the house
that !e%re talking about" because !e%re really talking of triangle" and then
circle three. .nd the bottom circle !ould be pure poetry. .nd that%s going to
be something that !ill help me.
- But all those librettos that you%ve !ritten are not thatC
. *or me" in terms of my perception of myself" ? look at the librettos as part
of the tri-plane and" say" schematic composition" and then libretto.
- But don%t you" !hen you actually !rite these operas" don%t you !rite the
libretto firstC
. Ges.
- .nd then you !rite the music to go on top of it. =o do you sort of let the
rhythm of the !ords dictate the musicC
. Ges.
- =o if !e%re moving through your system then" up to the present" !here
!ould you pick up that thread againC Because ? !ant to get to the operas and
the /host Trance.
. 7kay. =olo experiences" individual experiences" house of the circle$ house
of the rectangle$ duo to orchestral experiences" extending from that point into
the house of the triangle as a !ay of tying up the architectonic logics" !hich
translate for me into structural dynamics on one rectangle$ into interaction
dynamics--composition as a !ay of defining interaction dynamics. .nd
composition as a !ay of defining summation conceptual regions inside the
music.
ouse of the triangle6 ritual and ceremonial musics" the beginning of
storytelling.
- When did that come inC
. ?n the time period of the 93s" !ith the story music !orks like Composition
';, 8for creative orchestra:. Composition 'F) is an example of a composition
!here ? told a story for solo flute and constructed environment" and then ? told
the story and had the music re-enact the story$ that !as the beginning. .nd the
story involved area spatial components that the soloist !ould fulfill inside of
this constructed environment.
- #id you see any connection bet!een that impulse and the tradition of" say"
storytelling by the Aali from .frica" or the opera or the Singspiel from DuropeC
7r the bluesC
. ? sa! it as connected to =tockhausen%s 6arle/uin" for solo clarinet. ?t%s not a
story" but it%s a clarinetist !orking and moving" a !onderful piece. ? !anted to
move into pieces that utili@ed area space" !here the instrumentalist is moving
and playing$ ? had already built a system of movement" so !ith '') ? had
already built a story" and the story and the composition !ould express the
components of the story and utili@e the area space.
- #id you dra! on experiences you had in the music before" !here you had
nothing but purely musical experiences" but !ere having visions inside of that
of a story" or scene" or something like thatC
. ? don%t kno!. .t some point" ? found myself thinking that it made sense for
me to build a mythical story. *or instance" Composition '')" for solo
sopranino saxophone$ ? !rote a story for that. The soloist is thinking of this
story in the improvisation" and there are all kinds of internal mechanisms"
such as targeted phrase constructions that represent parts of the story of
7Au!ain on this train.
- 7Au!ain is one of your system%s t!elve characters" too. Was he the first to
be expressed in the musicC
. Ges. =o he%s on this train" and ? came up !ith this story" and it gave me
spatial dynamics and direction$ also" the psychological component of having
different phrases to express different parts of the story.
- #id you think of 2rokofiev%s 42eter and the Wolf4C
. ? didn%t think of it" but ? should have" because that%s one of my favorite
compositions$ 2rokofiev is one of my guys. .ny!ay" ? Aust tried to evolve that
idea. Composition '3)" for seven trumpets$ it doesn%t have a story" but there is
a context of narrative and choreography about that composition.
- Gou kno!" this idea about having a phrase represent a narrative kind of
reminds me of the West .frican rhythmic cycles" in !hich each of the
rhythms express a different part of the communityQ
. Qand makes something happen. That is connected to Composition '')" the
idea of a target signal activation 8i.e." talking drums:$ suddenly a phrase
construction has a transcendent component. =o ?%m really moving to!ard the
Trillium operas. By the time !e get to this point" the idea of the triangle"
!hich is synthesis" !ould also become the context for transposition. What that
!ould mean" for me" !ould be the erection of imaginary constructs" more and
more. .nd there !ere several reasons for it6 one" imaginary constructs !ould
give me a !ay to have definite things to deal !ith" as opposed to Composition
B;" !hich is like a ritual gesture. ? !anted to have specific things to deal !ith"
!here ? could apply the movement system" and have it !ork in a specific !ay"
like in Composition 'F)" for solo flute.
.lso" an imaginary context !ould give me a !ay to continue evolving my
music" since it !as clear ? !asn%t getting any performances" and that it didn%t
look like ? !ould get any in a normal kind of !ay. This !as late %B3s and %93s"
after the .rista record deal. =o ? felt that part of evolving my music !ould
involve creating imaginary schemas that ? could hold onto !hether ? got a
performance or not. =o the imaginary schemas !ould give me a possibility to
imagine a context and say that Composition 'B," or 'B0" !ould be a
composition !here--'B0 !as for a percussion ensemble" and they%re climbing
this mountain. What the imaginary scheme !ould mean for me !ould be that ?
could create an imaginary context on the tri-plane.
=o !hat am ? sayingC Eocal experiences" national or greater experiences" and
the largest" or galactic experiences" the largest ? could think of. -y plan here"
then as no!--because all of this started to come together in this period--!as to
imagine a state that ? could fit my music system into" !here ? could have
different things for people to do" different compositions to !rite that !ould
fulfill the multitasks of these imaginary states--all the !ay from the individual
experiences in Composition '') of 7Au!ain on the train to the concept of
galactic actuali@ation" !here ? could imagine rocket ships traveling through
space in the largest frame!ork that ? could think of. .s a result of defining
that" ? could then start to !rite not only compositions for those states" but to
define !orks in terms of individual reality properties6 the concept of t!elve
city-states" each state demonstrating the identity of the t!elve languages. .nd
then inside of that state" !rite compositions that demonstrate internal
possibilities for" say" language L0" stacatto line logics--and making it even
more definite and specific by actually defining the states.
What all that !ould mean for me as a composer" then" !ould be that ?%ve got
this expanding universe that ? could microscope into different focuses" and in
the city-state focus" build t!elve city-state territories !ith roads connecting
them$ the roads !ould be rectangles" specific roads$ the circle !ould be the
ability to Aust travel in any direction you !ant" not on a road$ and the triangles
!ould be points of connection" large cities or !hatever" !here different
strategies can interconnect and go to some!here else.
7r transfer$ triangle in this context is transfer. =o ? tried to take that concept
and express it in the individual circle and reality experiences of the individual
all the !ay to the galactic model. =o ? tried to take that concept and express it
in the individual circle and reality experiences of the individual all the !ay to
the galactic model.
- Transfer" from" say" like a city crossroadsQto !hereC
. To the galactic model.
- Eike" upC
. Jp or do!n" since it%s three to the third po!er. ?f you%re at the top" you
might !ant to go do!n. 7r" if you%re at the point of the triangle" you might
!ant to s!itch into the Tri)Axium 5ritings$ or" you might !ant to transfer
from the Tri)Axium 5ritings to the system of movements--or to the
2omposition !otes 5Braxton%s five-volume set of his explanations of each of
his !orks" also published by *rog 2eak>.
- =o you mean a transfer from a musical experience to !ritingC
. *rom a musical experience to a musical experience$ from a musical
experience to a correspondence experience" to dance$ from a musical
experience to a poetic experience.
- =o !hen !as your first actual Trillium operaC
. Composition 'F3" Trillium A" !as performed in '(9,.
- That !as right after '') then" huhC
. Geah" seven pieces after.
- #o the Trillium series of operas then represent something of a culmination
of your !hole systemC
. &o. The Trillium operas" if !e !ould look at the city-state analogy" !ould
be in the maAor cities in each state" like a giant castle in each state. 7n the
galactic formal scheme model" the Trillium operas !ould be in the center of
the maAor galaxies. ?n the area-state formal scheme model" the Trillium operas
!ould be e+uivalent to the big tree" in Wagner. The big local store.
- =o little things like duo proAects" or solo proAects" or +uartets--those !ould
be Aust" like" other little stories in the big cityC
. Thank you. Composition )B" for four saxophones" the first of the modern
saxophone +uartet musics" that they don%t !ant to give me credit for" is really
a transposition of language L 0 into the house of the rectangle.
- That !as a +uartet !ith you" 7liver EakeQ
. Qamiett Bluiett" and 1ulius emphill. .nd they brought in #avid -urray
!hen ? told 1ulius ? could not be a part of the saxophone +uartet on a fulltime
basis" that the proAect for me !as a one-time proAect.
- =o that started it" and they took it from there.
. They took it from there" but they%ve never given me any credit for that" and
? don%t understand !hy" because that experience in no !ay takes a!ay from
the greatness of their !ork and !hat they !ould go forth to do. But for some
reason" they%ve never remembered that experience. Jnfortunately" it is
documented.
- *ortunately.
. Geah" fortunately" for me.
- =o the first opera performance !as of 'F3" in CaliforniaQ
. &o" the operas are the dialogues. We%re in the house of the triangle6 number
one" triangle" schematics" for the Tri)Axium 5ritings. The integration
schematics from the Tri)Axium 5ritings serve as the genesis point for creating
the libretto. The integration schematics are reductive diagrams of the ideas
and arguments inside the Tri)Axium 5ritings. The integration schematics
!eren%t conceived to tell anyone !hat to think on any particular subAect$ they
only establish the context of terms and connections. Dach person !ill come
out of them !ith his or her o!n understanding of relationships. ?n my opinion"
it%s a restructuralist approach to information integration that sets up postulates"
but doesn%t tell anybody !hat to think. .t the same time" it itself is a reduction
of the philosophical !ritings of the Tri)Axium 5ritings.
- Gou mean your librettosC
. &o" ? mean the actual !ritings in the Tri-axium book. The arguments of the
Tri)Axium 5ritings are reduced to schematic forms. The opera libretto is a
story based on the schematics" so it makes the second triangle$ third triangle ?
guess !ould be the intuitive implications of the actual fantasy experiences.
The libretto of the Tri)Axium 5ritings is constructed in such a !ay that the
singers have to find out their o!n meaning of it. ? !rite it" but the actual
experience of the stories" since they aren%t linear storiesQ
- Qthat%s part of their interpretive task.
. Ges" and the psychological dimensions that the singers bring to the music" a
personal dimension.
- When !e did the opera =hala in &e! Gork" the part ? focused on most !as
that second act" !hich ? !rote a paper about. .re you saying that !hen the
performers bring their o!n spins as artists to the performance of the libretto"
!hen they sing it" that they%re defining it someho!C
. Ges" because it%s not a story in the sense of Wagner" !here you become a
character that expresses the psychology of the story. ?n Trillium" the !hole
concept of a story is very different. ?t doesn%t go from beginning to end" it%s
Aust a slice of time. ?nside that slice of time there%s the ritual of dialogue" and
the singers bring their o!n personal psychologies to it.
- #id you notice that happening much in the performance of ShalaC
. 7h yes.
- What sticks in your mind about that" like an example of something that
someone brought to the character that !as sort of fresh and ne! to youC
. ? don%t kno! ho! to express !hat !e%re talking about on this level" outside
of saying it !as a revelation to me to have the opportunity to experience the
drama come to life" and to actually be able to be separate from it and to
experience it. But ? don%t kno! if that is a real ans!er to !hat you%re asking.
- Because it seemed to me" for instance" in the second act !ith the scene !ith
the familyC They !ere all pretty much enacting !hat the script put forth" of a
family in a kitchen" you kno!. The !ords expressing tenderness and things
like thatQ
. Geah" !ell" so it%s a story" a definite libretto" but it didn%t relate to the
Duropean mythology" nor the .frican-.merican mythology" it !as a modern
family dealing in real time !ith the kinds of things families deal !ith.
- ?t could have been anyone any!here.
. Right. Gou picked up on the chance fact that the couple !as interracial in
that casting" suggesting that issue !as in my story" but the story doesn%t have
anything to do !ith race" Aust !ith a man and a !oman dealing !ith one
another in that situation. -y intent as a composer" then and no!" is to look for
universal kinds of situations" !here people can express themselves" !ithin that
context.
- .nd that kind of goes to your actual use of language" the !ay you express
things in sort of general" vague terms rather than have an agenda for !hat
you%re trying to have expressed.
. ?%ve tried to create a language that satisfies my understanding of
communication" !hich !as three-dimensional. Because as you kno!" !hen
!e express ourselves" many different levels come out" and not everybody can
hear every level" because it%s not even about that. But some people are able to
hear more levels and have more of a connection than others$ but even !ith
that" !e%re all coming from our individual circle" and ? !anted Trillium to be
open to that in a !ay that !ould be very different from" say" Wagner.
By the !ay" the Trillium operas are post-Wagnerian operas" as opposed to"
say" post-=tockhausen" or =choenberg operas.
- ?n !hat sense do you meanC
. ? think !hat turns me on about Wagner is ho! deeply he gets into human
psychology" and he%s not afraid of feeling" and men and !omen. We !ere
talking on the !ay here" and ? mentioned 4Tristan and ?solde.4 ?t Aust !iped
me out$ ? !as on the ground" laughing" screaming" because he !as not afraid
to use creative music to demonstrate the emotion and the psychologies that
happen bet!een men and !omen$ he portrayed it in his context. 4Tristan and
?solde4 talks of life and darkness in a polarity. *or me it%s an incredible opera.
But Trillium is tri-centric$ an individual brings his o!n life to it" because it%s
not referring to anything" aside from the individual applying himself to that
given context. ?t%s not a story that goes anyplace.
session 9
. Qor the first house" !hich is" on the tri-metric plane" long sounds"
recogni@ed on the house of the circle.
- #efine tri-metric plane.
. Tri-metric modeling" modeling on the plane of three to the third po!er.
2ropositional modeling.
- What does that mean in terms of a long toneC
. =tarting from language music" long tone as an idea that happens in
experience. Then in the house of the rectangle" long sound as the operating
premise in drones" or in someQ
- But by tri-metric you mean the directing of the circleC
. Ges" directing a positing" a thought or an idea through that plane" on !hich
there are three different parameters. *inally" long sound as a statement of a
continuous state involvement$ and from that point" the t!elve language
models.
- What ? notice is that" even though it%s do!n on paper pretty clearly" this
system of yours" you seem to al!ays be tinkering !ith it in your head. ? have
this image of an inner !orld al!ays in motion that you%re al!ays sort of
referring to in the moment !hen you%re talking about it. Eike the other day
you !ere talking about this level" and that level" and the other level" as though
you !ere sort of picturing it in your mind. ? don%t kno! if all of those things
you mentioned al!ays have a strict correspondence !ith the paper version.
. ? agree !ith !hat you%re saying" but !hat that means for me is that my !ork
is in continual motion. ?t%s a model that recogni@es change from a tri-centric
perspective" and integrates recognition on a tri-centric level. Eet me give you
this information about the /host Trance musics.
7kay" long sounds" in the house of the circle" language musics. Eong sounds
as an idea" the state of drone$ long sounds as a state of being$ and then inside
of that" going no! to the house of one" the house of =hala6 those transmutants
as a continuous state phenomenon$ /host Trance musics as an expression of
infinity. That is" the universe<the expanding 4so-called4 universe e+uals =hala.
Eet me give you three instances of /host Trance musics" each !ith three
subcomponents. &umber 7ne" /host Trance musics as an expression of
infinity6 '" spatial music mapping prototypes$ F" sustained space logics 8for
example" something that is meditative:$ )" continuous processes.
&umber t!o" /host Trance musics6 '" transtemporal mechanisms 8it doesn%t
start" it doesn%t end:$ F" transtemporal mechanisms 8fast" medium" and slo!" at
any point in time:$ )" transtemporal mechanisms 8use of multi-tempos" use of
combination tempos" use of changing tempos:.
&umber three6 /host Trance musics6 '" trans-idiomatic" !hich translates into
trans-spiritual 8male" female" and child:$ F" no theme as such" but t!elve
multi-hierarchical identities6 no theme--redemptive" transformative" and the
phenomenon of hope. )" tri-metric models6 personal models" collective
models" and models !ith special interests.
*inally" as an activist component--because ?%ve given you three statements of
/host Trance musics--three active components6 metric processes" pulse target
processes" and mutable processes. That is the model ? !anted to establish for
the house of one" in a system that" more and more" ?%ve started to understand
there%s a triangulation bet!een the identity of =hala" the identity of
.shmenton" and the identity of elena. =hala%s at the top in a certain period$
in another period" .shmenton or elena is at the top.
- =ounds like a tangled hierarchy" from physics.
. 7kay" then that is the hierarchy.
- =hala is the house of oneC
. Ges.
- The expanding universe. =o ho! !ould you describe the mechanics of
.shmenton and 1oreoC
. .shmenton !ould be se+uential logics" starting !ith accented long sounds"
operating polarity logic.
- But on the cosmic level" since =hala isQ
. 7h" oh" ? am still exploring that$ ? don%t kno! that yet. ? see it !orking in
the house of one. ? have t!enty more compositions to go" and then ?%ll have
house of one%s bricks in place. *or example" going back to" say" Composition
'')" !hich !ould be a point of definition for the holistic compositionsQfrom
that point to" say" '0B for ten percussionists" or 'B," that maps the castle" and
'B0" gradient logics6 those compositions are examples of area space formal
schemes that !ere conceived to map area space possibilities" or opportunities.
The /host Trance musics comprise a prototype conceived to map extended
area space domains. *or instance" community area spaces$ state area spaces$
national area spaces$ continental area spaces$ global area spaces$ and solar
system area spaces$ galactic area spaces--!hat -uhal Richard .brams called
the Tri-verse" as an area space" orQ!e move into !hat ? call the imaginary
spaces in my music" starting !ith Composition '')" !hich has a story that the
soloist enacts" !ith a psychology$ there%s a pitch logic response for
psychology$ there%s an area space parameter that%s defined. Compositions 'B,
and 'B0 continue those ideas in an extended parameter.
- What number is your first /host Trance compositionC
. '9,.
- o! many have you composed so farC
. We Aust did F90 and F9," so it%s getting around '33" and ? still have around
t!enty more to go" then ?%ll have the bricks in placeC
- #o you have a fixed number of compositions you%re shooting for" like 'F3C
. &ot really" but !hat ? !anted !asQthe plane of the /host Trance musics
!as conceived to fulfill a continuous state logic in all t!elve houses" in terms
of construction logic.
- What do these references to t!elve have to do !ith the chromatic scale$ are
you talking about notesC
. &o" ?%m talking about the t!elve language states" the t!elve identity states
of my system. =o long sounds" accented long sounds" trills" !hich is
ornamentation" staccato long sounds" short sounds" high sounds" lo! sounds"
intervallic sounds" gradient sounds--on the chart.
- =o you don%t have a fixed number" but you Aust sort of kno! roughly. o!
do you kno! !hen you%ve finishedC
. There !ill be three different species of /host Trance structures. The first is
complete" it%s continuous state metric pulses. =econd species is metric state
plus opposition$ that opposition is rhythmic opposition.
- -etric state being the +uarter note patternC
. Bop-bop-bop-bop-bop 5sings regular rhythm>--then du-du-du-du 5sings
irregular rhythm>. Third species is metric pulse into pulse velocity" that being
from tempo to pulse. 5sings a long sound then regular-rhythm short sounds>
- Gou%re calling the long sound a pulseC
. ?t%s the pulse time" moving from tempo time to target pulse time. ?n other
!ords" if ? Aust give you a cue" !e%ll Aust hold the pitch for as long as !e !ant
to hold it" !ith no tempo.
- But you%re calling that pulseC
. 2ulse space as opposed to tempo space.
- 7h" because there%s something pulsating in that long held toneC
. 2ulse space as a !ay of talking of velocity as opposed to tempo expansion$
very fast tempo" very slo! tempo" it%s still tempo" you still have a metric
pulse. 2ulse velocity is Aust a !ay of talking of nonmetric logics that happen
in time" but target time.
- ?%m Aust trying to figure out ho! pulse !orks into that.
. 2ulse could be point of activation.
- Eike !hen you first hit the long toneC
. Ges. .nd the duration is pulse" because you%re not hitting the !hole note"
you%re not thinking in terms of !hole notes" or metric values.
- But your experience of the music is that something%s pulsating in the bodyC
. Eet%s go back to tempo. We have fast" slo!" and medium tempos. Take
a!ay the tempo and you can still sing anything you !ant to sing
arhythmically. ? talk of the non-tempo space as a pulse space as a !ay to be
able to model variables in that space" based on !hat%s moving faster" !hat%s
moving slo!er. .lso" based on the characteristics" the sonic-geometric
characteristics of that movement. That is the basis of language music. The
third species of /host Trance then becomes metric-pitch changes happening
in metric time that goes into nonmetric time. .nd that%s !hat ? mean by pulse
space. That nonmetric time is a time that can be factored as something as !ell.
- =o it%s not Aust a stretch !here you%re holding a note" it%s a stretch !here
there%s actually pulse happeningC ?%m still trying to get a grasp of !hat the
pulse is in this. There are things happeningQ
. Things happening. . target cue happens" and anything can happen 5he sings
a random phrase>. ?t%s Aust that there%s no tempo there. !e%re taking out the
tempo" but the improvisers are still playing" and !hat they%re playing can still
be defined in the parameter$ that parameter ? talk of as a pulse time-field"
!here targets--
- Kind of like the pulse tracks 5one of his earlier musical devices>.
. Kind of like the pulse tracks6 target points that activate actions.
- The poetic imagery of the /host Trance !ill suggest to most people the
/host #ance movement of &ative .mericans in the last century" !hich !as a
time !hen they !ere on the !ay out" defeated$ and they !ent beyond their
separate tribal systems and came together as a bunch of different tribes.
. ?t !as deeper than that$ they didn%t have any choice. .ll of the culture !as
!iped out" genocide$ each group could remember only a little bit of their
experience.
- =o ho! does this historical thing translate into your naming this body of
musics /host TranceC
. ? !ant to have a direct connection to the great &ative .merican people. ?n
fact" !hen ? first discovered that trans-musics !ould be the next stage for me"
it !as at that point that ? started to study &ative .merican musics. ? took a
class at Wesleyan$ they called me bear-boy Braxton in this class. They
brought in the bearskin coat" ? !as running around the class in it.
- ? can%t help but think of the parallel on the personal level. ?n a !ay" it%s kind
of a perfect expression of a stage of life" around midlife" !here" in a !ay" one
!hole !orld comes to an end" and you%re stuck !ith the rest of it like a ghost.
#id you ever think of it that !ayC
. .ctually" ?%m trying to figure out ho! to look at things at this point. ? see
this time cycle as a profound transition" and ?%m still in the middle of it" and
everything has changed in my life" from the breakup of my marriage" the
separation from my children. ? refer to this period in time as my exile" and ?%ve
been in it for some four years" sometime since a couple of months after the
performance of Trillium +. -y life !ould go into kind of a mystical
something" so ? have referred to it as my exile.
- ? can%t help but think of the reflection" too" on the history of .fricans in
.merica. They had to deal !ith the loss of their separate tribal identities and
come together as one !hole people too$ a lot of improvisation" mixed !ith
cloudy memories" took over the process of assimilation.
. That has been one of the secrets of .merican music" that much of it !as
based on existential" Aust kind of positing an idea" because you didn%t have a
tradition that told you you couldn%t do !hatever you !ere hearing. =o it !as a
fresh psychology that brought in the ne! .merican musics" and that
psychology" one !ould hope" !ould be part of understanding .merica"
especially !hat it could mean in the third millennium. But !hat !e%re seeing
instead of attempts to really understand !hat !e%re talking about" !e%re seeing
the components of the modern era come into place" and those components" in
my opinion" have axiomatic components that have very clear ideas of !hich
individuals are going to be able to effect culture" !hich individuals and groups
are going to have access to the possibilities of the composite forces and
factors shaping change. =o in many !ays" ? find myself that%s consistent !ith
this kind of dynamic change that .merica is going through right no!" as !e
get ready for the real Third -illennium. We have a ne! president !ho comes
into office !ith a complex set of components behind him$ !e have no more
illusions about the =upreme Court$ !e have no more illusions about #emocrat
and Republican. -ean!hile" the culture is split profoundly" and it !ill be
interesting to see ho! that plays out. The last time !e had a profound split" it
!as the &orth and the =outh. &o! !e have a kind of a liberal-conservative
split that%s even deeper.
- Bet!een the coasts and the middle.
. Ges 5laughs>. ?nteresting to see ho! all this plays out.
- When you mention the seventh restructural cycle" you mean !hat took off
in the %;3s" basicallyC
. Ges.
- What occurred to me is--!e !ere talking about traditional influences"
ranging from historical Western music to people like Eouis .rmstrong and
#uke Dllington. We noticed in talking about the =outhern strategy is that !hat
happens is that there are these individuals !ho are" by your lights" part of the
continuum of creative music evolution" but !hat happens through the
=outhern strategy--and maybe through the !hole proAect of Western
civili@ation--is that !hat started out as a creative music gesture" struggling"
underrecogni@ed" maybe persecuted" misunderstood--a couple of generations
later is suddenly revered and yet at the same time commodified" used and
manipulated. What ?%m !ondering" in that process" to get up as far as" say" the
seventh restructural cycle" one of our themes of our talk has been that the
masters of that are people !ho are all still on the outs$ !e%re still in the middle
of a kind of a culture !ar" !here even though you see yourself as part of a
great long continuum that includes .rmstrong and Dllington and those people"
you don%t see yourself or your !ork or that of your ..C- colleagues" or
Cecil Taylor" or !hoever is active no! as having reached that point !here the
=outhern strategy appropriates that" so that !e see a &ike commercial running
!ith a soundtrack by Braxton" or Cecil.
=o it seems to me like t!o possible futures to keep in mind here" once !e get
into talking about the future of your !ork. ?f things go like they%ve al!ays
gone" !e could end up at the year F3,3" !ith Braxton%s !ork enshrined at the
Eincoln Center Aust like #uke Dllington%s is no!" and the !hole spirit of it is
someho! subverted$ or !e could end up at a place !here at some point
creative music gets the upper hand and tips the scales" so that it%s no longer
possible to appropriate it that !ay.
. .nd" for me" !hat you%re describing is something that%s outside !hat ? can
understand right no!. ?n another t!enty years" they%re going to be able to
appropriate !hatever they !ant. We%ll seen 1ohn Coltrane%s 4. Eove
=upreme4 on the television set being used to sell cigarettes or something. The
marketplace is incredible" their ability to turn something of meaning into fluff
is incredible. ?n fact" ? remember laughing yesterday at this cra@y TH
commercial$ it%s Aust another stupid kind of commercial" but it got me. ? found
myself thinking" yes" for the people !ho are thinking along these lines" if they
can%t get you one !ay" they%ll find another !ay to get you--because they%re into
this" and actually it%s a form of creativity as !ell.
.s far as ho! my !ork !ill be vie!ed in fifty years" ?%m not even !orried
about that" because the music !ill fight for its o!n life" and in the end ? think
all of these things are cosmic. ? think all ? can focus on is trying to do my
!ork and to kno! that" one" it !as al!ays first and foremost a personal
matter. =econd" it !as something that ? felt that ? could be involved !ith that
!ould also be bigger than me" so that hopefully ? !ould be a part of
something ? could believe in" and add to. *inally" it%s not about me" or the
individual$ there%s a cosmic component happening. What%s fascinating to me"
at ,, years old" is seeing the dimensions of change" and ho! +uickly time and
space go by in a period of F, years" !here suddenly !e have the opportunity
to see so much change" and the various levels of manipulation that come into
play. This is !hy ? can%t !ait for the #uBois books" because ? feel more and
more that his position bet!een -arcus /arvey and Booker T. Washington
!as a position that set up the propositions that ?%m experiencing right no!. .s
his ultimate vie!point that .frican-.merican intellectualism" in .merica"
any!ay" is a subAect that is basically irrelevant" because the information
complex is not set up to include perspectives from non-Durocentric
psychologies" and especially from .frican .mericans. ? feel that before !e
can even get to a point !here !e can have a healthier intellectual discourse"
that our country !ill have to go through another set of experiences or
something$ !e%re not there at this point. =o ? !ould not be surprised if my
!ork experiences the fate of *rank 1ohnson%s" and William /rant =till%s and
the 2hiladelphia school" !hose !ork !ill be kicked out of the domain of
relevancy at the beginning of the modern era. =uddenly it became all about
creative music as a practice perceived !ithin the marketplace%s concept of
&e! 7rleans" as opposed to experiences taking place all over .merica. &o!
!e see the primacy of the blues" the primacy of the rhythm in s!ing" used in a
!ay that actually defeats the evolution of the music in terms of ho! those
propositions !ere conceived a hundred years ago" or eighty years ago. They%re
taking definitions of a hundred years ago and trying to apply them to no!" and
kicking out anything that doesn%t fit in neatly. ?n fact" get ready" -ike effley"
for another period of Reconstruction.
/eorge Bush has !on. When this experience happened after Reconstruction"
during the ayes-Rutherford period" part of the deal involved cutting off the
Reconstruction process" and getting the troops out of the =outh. =o no! here
!e are again" and on the television the pundits are talking about ho! /eorge
W. o!es the .frican .merican community" that it has been the community
most disenfranchised because of the manipulations in *lorida" and that W.
needs to make an effort to leave no !illing heart behind--his compassionate
conservatism.
- ? read a statistic too that he got less of the .frican .merican vote than most
Republican presidents up to no!" including his father--in spite of the sho! of
unity and diversity at the convention they held.
. ?s that rightC ? don%t blame /eorge W." ? blame the .frican .merican
community. ? think it%s stunted" all #emocrats" because !e don%t feel like !e
have anyplace else to go. But that position is not a healthy one. We%re being
manipulated by the liberals.
- When you !ere in Durope" did you get much feedback on the /host Trance
musicC
. Hery positive experience. /raham Eock sho!ed up. The people there listen
to the music !ith a different spirit there. ?t !as very positive$ but then again"
there%s a small group of people in Durope !ho are interested in my !ork" and
since ? don%t perform very much" maybe the fact that the concert !as so
positive !ere a!are of the music" and of !hich area ?%m !orking in. But from
my perspective it !as a !onderful occasion to play" to a nice reception. They
!rite about the music !ith more respect and interest$ in .merica right no!
they don%t focus on my !ork at all. ?n fact" the machinery is gearing up for the
Ken Burns '3-part" '(-hour extended !ork this guy is doing. .nd everything ?
read about it says it goes up to '(;, and Aumps to '(9," and--!ell" !e%re not
surprised by that. But in fact" that period from '(;, to '(93 !as a profound
period in time in .merica$ !hatever one !ants to say about the ..C-" it%s an
organi@ation that !as uni+ue in the sense that it !as a gathering of musician-
composers !ho decided they !ould respond to creative music in any !ay they
!anted to respond" and support one another. .nd that the musics and ideas
that came out of that group !ould be vie!ed as not relevant is a tragedy. 7r if
it%s not a tragedy" ?%m surprised that it%s not" because the men and !omen ?
gre! up !ith and !orked !ith !ere serious people !ho !ere totally
dedicated" and functioning from the highest possible intentions" that being
giving something back to the community" being the best musicians they could
be" and finding something that !as personal in the music. .ll of that no! is
being !iped out. The .frican .merican community is spinning" like the rest
of .merica" from this last thirty-something days of political la!yering. ?t%s
going to be interesting to see ho! all these components congeal on some level
as !e get to the Third -illennium" and sets the stage for something likeQit
feels like the Reconstruction era is coming back. ?t already feels like the
=!ing era has come back. ?t feels like entertainment as the highest experience
has come back. The psychology of the practical has come back. The cult of
ethnicity and racial politics never really left" so it didn%t have to come back" it%s
Aust taken a ne! form. .nd ?%m basically in the same position" if not !orse" as
!hen ? initially made the decision to move out in this direction. .lthough ?
have to be careful !ith ho! ? say that. ?%ve been able to have a !hole life"
until ,, years old" and to maintain a connection !ith my !ork" and play
music.
- ? !ant to talk about the opera proAect in Chicago. Before !e go there" do
you !ant to comment on anything you read in the Cecil Taylor intervie!
about the significance of his interest in your !orkC
. Well" the only thing ? !ould say is that ? !as surprised to hear Cecil
mention my name" and it makes me happy !henever he mentions my name"
because he%s a great" great man" and ? can only !onder !hat he%s thinking in
this period as he looks at the threshold of the Third -illennium coming in.
- Because !hen ? first mentioned it to you" your first reaction !as to say that
it seemed to indicate that the scene !as changing. =o really !hat !e%re talking
about here is maybe a sense of being on the brink of something" !hich is
really graphically illustrated by this election stuff" and the Ken Burns film. #o
you think things are coming to a head in a !ay that !ould radically change
your experience of !hat you%re doingC
. &o" not really. ? have come to see my !ork more and more in the spirit of
the .frican griots !ho are outside of everything. 7f late" ? used the expression
4navigation through form4 as a !ay to talk about poetic intent$ navigation
through form as a !ay of making the distinction of saying that ?%m not liberal
or conservative$ it%s not Aa@@ or classical music$ but it recogni@es these
+uadrants. =o !hen ? think about the future--Cecil mentioned in one of the
articles" ? think" that as a composer" it !as Aust going to be continually
frustrating" because they !eren%t going to let me in. Well" he could not have
been more correct. ? !ould only say on my behalf that ? !anted to have a
response based on my understanding of composite reality" and my o!n
attractions" curiosities and balances. There !as no !ay ? could avoid the
!orld of composition and extended notated music. But he%s right" there%s no
slot for a guy !ith my interests" and ? don%t see that changing in a real sense
during my lifetime. Because the central problem is that my !ork cannot be
embraced !ithout on some level ackno!ledging the thought processes and the
value systems relating to ho! it%s come into being. .nd !e%re not at a point
!here the culture is ready to consider information dynamics from a multitude
of perspectives. =o that%s !hy ?%ve tried to approach my !ork in a very definite
!ay" and define the components and document the particulars of my
experience in a !ay !here it can be studied. Because !hat ? !anted !as to
have an experience in the house of the circle$ ? !anted to come out of that
experience and have some memory of !hat took place in that experience" and
to extract those memories in the form of ideas" and to build a context of ideas
related to that experience that !ould later transpose into bringing that real-
time experience and bringing that idea together in a !ay that !ould be
transcendent" and symbolic. =o ? don%t see any real attempt to deal !ith my
!ork in the near future. ? !ould be happy if there !ould be some attempt to
deal !ith William /rant =till%s music. That !ould serve me Aust as !ell" if not
better" because it !ould give young people an opportunity to understand that
there%s a precedent" a continuum of things happening" and that the opera of
=cott 1oplin" Treemonisha" is an important opera" an .merican opera that%s
very special$ and it%s also an opera composed by an .frican-.merican
composer" !ith a different set of values and propositions to add to the mix" to
the body of tradition. But .merica is not at a point to integrate all of these
experiences and propositions" and the best ? can hope for is that !hile ?%m
alive ? can get a performance every no! and then of an opera" since the operas
are the hardest ones to get a performance of and document. ?%d like to evolve
my system to the furthest of my ability and have it there as something that can
be experienced" studied" and pondered.
- Gou scoped out the end of the first house of the /host Trance music
through the next t!enty compositions. Darlier you told me that you had
reached a certain point !ith your opera concept" but you still had a very
definite image of !here you had to go next before something about it could be
reali@ed. Gou said you had reali@ed your opera complex on one level" but
hadn%t yet integrated it !ith the coordinate musics or something. #o you see
this process of developing your body of !ork as a composer as being Aust
continuing on the !ay it al!ays has up to the end" from plateau to plateau" and
that you%re al!ays going to be motivated and interested enough to hang in
there even if you are beating against !alls like thisC
. ? !ould like to hope so. ? see creative music as e+ual to creative living$
music and life are really both the same thing" there%s no reason !hy one
should not continue to learn and gro!. -aybe it changes !hen you get older"
in terms of the rate of ho! much can be done in a given time frame. But
getting older also brings !ith it a set of experiences and perspectives that can
trump out the extra energy of youth. ?%d like to hope that ? can continue to
evolve myself and move to!ard a point of self-reali@ation in my spiritual life$
? !ould also like to hope that" as a creative person" ? can also continue to
evolve my music. ? think living involves creative music as part of the basic
responses inside of a given time perspective" or day. ? think !hat ? call music
is not Aust acoustic sonic actuali@ation" but the !hole phenomenon and
psychology of living. *inding a positive line" finding a !ay to evolve" finding
a !ay to keep on going and have hope. Recogni@ing" or at least keeping
curiosity" to value curiosity. ? !ould say for the young people" especially the
young people of .merica" but actually the young people of the planet6 stay
interested in &.=." and in space travel" and in the ne! things that are
happening right no!" because this is an incredible period of time" !hat these
guys can do no!. ? mean" you kno!" the cell phones connected to the
satellites" signals bouncing all over the placeQ
- This !hole space program is another thing that started in the %;3s that got
cut off.
. GesI We landed people on the moon" in one of the greatest moments of
documented human experience" and by the next year .mericans !ere" like"
not even interested any more. We had an incredible achievement that served
to kind of Aust" in a strange kind of !ayQthe country !as not able to integrate
that experience and move for!ard. Then !hen the =oviet Jnion collapsed--
- .nd they !ere the first ones up there" too.
. --yeah" so then .mericans thought" 4!e%ve got it made" !e%re the ones"
!e%re the heroes.4
- =eems like !e%re born into a time !hen the !ords 4ahead of your time4
take on some meaning. ? mean if you%re stuck in that place in the %;3s that you
are" and anybody that maybe took E=#--
. Ges.
- --time took on a ne! significance. Gou kno!" the !hole space thing
happened" and you think of =un RaQ
. Ges.
- --but you%d think that if you can get this far" and then see ho! much closer
you are to ho! much farther you could go" that it !ould be Aust like a straight
shot up from there. But instead it !ent like this 5hand makes a gesture of a
!inding path in the air>
. Ges.
- .nd yet anybody that !ent !inding there !ith it has to keep that in their
consciousness.
. 7h yes.
- =o" ? don%t kno!. ?%m thinking about ho! a long time ago you !ere talking
about kno!ing full !ell that you !ere sort of choosing a life in the cracks"
!hich you have indeed sort of had. ?t%s not like nothing has happenedQ
. But it%s been a life in the cracks.
- ? think at this point the logical segue is" !hether !e do it no! or next time"
is to use that !hole operation of fantasy to overcome the pessimism and
realism of the situation to start kicking around the concept of the future that
the concept of creative music has envisioned all along" and is yearning for" to
be in a society !here the dominant tenor and emotional affect of the people
involved !ith it is not one of exile and resignation" but one of total
engagement and support" and recognition.
. That%s !hy the use of imaginary models has been very important for me.
?maginary activities that give me a chance to start thinking in terms of the
opera" imaginary formations that give me a chance to start thinking in terms of
micro<macro formal schemes" for continuous state logics" i.e. /host Trance
musics$ and imaginary states as a !ay to have specific things to compose for"
as opposed to abstraction representing the optimum state of postulation. ?
don%t agree !ith that. ? think that abstractions" the house of the circle" is Aust
one state" and that%s !hy" again" the term Tri-Centric helps me to contextuali@e
@ones of propositions" decisions. The +uestion again for me !as going to be"
!hich !ay to go" !ould ? continue to think of modeling abstract syntaxes
together !ith compositions" or !ould ? look for something that !ould be
greater than that. *or me" the discovery of narrative structure" the discovery of
holistic formulations" and the decisions that !ould lead into the declarative
imaginary space !ould give me a !hole ne! field of devices to !ork !ith in
a specific kind of !ay.
- =o !hen you experience a story line turning itself into music" is this Aust a
spontaneous thing that happens because you%ve been involved in music for so
long that you get an idea of !riting a sentence about one of your characters"
and all of the sudden the music Aust suggests something that is attached to that
story lineC
. Well" it depends on !hat piece !e%re talking about. ?f it%s the opera" ? go to
the schematic$ ? make up a story based on the principle schematic subAect of
each opera. *or compositions like 'B0" for ten percussionists" and 'B, for four
vocalists and so forth" ? create an imaginary space like a castle" or a mountain"
and then map different points in it. The idea being that from a tri-centric
perspective--that being from the experience of imagination to the ideas that
come out of that experience into real time as a third component" the house of
the triangle" the reali@ation6 my conception is conceived as the same !ay that
!e talk of #isneyland6 as an area space proposition<proAect that could have a
constructive proponent like #isneyland" !here the friendly experiencer" single
or group tours" could have an experience in this area space" different kinds of
strategies !here origin experiences could happen--secondary origins" like an
orchestra piece--secondary origins !here a friendly experiencer comes and
interacts$ and genetic experiences" !here the friendly experiencer takes part
and puts it into some other part. =o !hat ?%ve been trying to do is create a state
of music that could !ould address different kinds of formal states" real and
imagined. .nd so for the real states" as far as an area space" ? think in terms of
#isneyland" as an example of real area space. ? think Walt #isney !as one of
the great visionary .mericans$ =un Ra understood that.
- But you mean the expression of it is like an opera" or imaginary !orldC
. . sonic amusement experience park" !ith t!elve different lands" each land
demonstrating the identity of its corresponding number in the system. Eand
number one is =hala land$ land number t!o is .shmenton land. Dach land
containing x amount of structures" from orchestra" large group musics" to solo
musics" chamber musics. =o the firendly experiencer can connect into
different kinds of sonic experiences. ? !ould also like to have this in the
virtual space. The +uestion is" !ho could help me build itC . virtual
imaginary space !here the friendly experiencer can come in and go through
all these different t!elve spaces and have" at this point" 033-something
compositions loaded into the computer. ?ncluding secret pass!ords activating
pitch sets$ magic pitch sets$ lineage pitch sets or strings$ family codes.
- That%s going to take some program. But it sounds technically possible.
. 5laughter> .nother ridiculous Braxton ideaI
- But you kno! !hat ?%m thinking about isQ? heard this lecture on
linguistics" about ho! !hen you%re first learning ho! to read" you%re !hole
being" as a kid" is completely devoted to the letters and !ords and to Aust
struggling from !ord to !ord until you finally get a sense of the meaning$ and
it goes like that for several years until finally" !hen you get it" you%re
experience of reading is not dealing !ith letters and !ords or anything like
that" but is rather engaged !ith some ne! !orld that you%ve got going in your
head no!. .nd in fact" the only !ay to subvert that experience of this ne!
!orld" this fantasy !orld of thought" is to start paying attention to !hat you%re
doing on the lo!er levels of the !ords and the letters. =o it seems to me like
your process is something that has Aust kept going do!n this line" starting !ith
the basics of musicianship. Gou kno!" anybody that masters an instrument"
like the piano" doesn%t kno! !hat his hands are doing anymore !hen he sits
do!n to play$ he%s Aust thinking about !here he !ants to go !ith the music.
Then if the name of your game is not only to do that but also to make up the
languages and the techni+ues yourself" then !hat gets put do!n there on that
base layer is something else that you made up that you%re not even a!are of
any more.
. Ges.
- .nd if you looked at it" you%d be blo!ing it for yourself.
. Ges.
- =o ?%m Aust trying to figure out ho!Qif this is" as ? believe" the natural
process of creating music" and ?%m engaged !ith this role of presenting this
information for !hat it really is to a general readership that needs to kno! it. ?
mean !hat obsesses me is !e have people in this society here--you" Cecil" all
these other musicians ?%ve met and talked to about their processes" !ho have
developed so far do!n the lines of their self-creative universes--!ho are not in
the center of the society" of the culture" of the !orld" !here by my lights" and
by all rights" ? think they should naturally be.
. Well" ? think that might be part of this route. 5more laughter>
session 10
- We started out talking about Ken Burns% film. Gou said it !as going to
have profoundly negative implications" if it took the road previe! press
seemed to suggestQ
. ? think for me" a central point about this !hole movement has been ho! !e
see the arrival of the same atomic components that led to the modern era in
the '(33s. .nd the atomic components" in the house of poetic logics" !e see
the trans-.frican input components narro!ed based on a post-.ntebellum
psychology that mask" in many !ays" the real significance of the music. .nd
the real significance of the music can%t be understood by looking at ethnic-
+uadrant perspectives or psychology" the real perspective of the music can
only be arrived at by seeing the music as it existed !ithin composite reality.
This is another reason !hy ? !ould guess that present-day attempts to !all off
!hat they call Aa@@--the !hole invention of 4Aa@@"4 the !hole reason 4Aa@@4
!as necessary !as because the idea of composite reality !as unacceptable to
Duropean .mericans. By that ? mean the significance of this fresh input" this
fresh creative information coming from .frican .mericans !as simply
something that the Duropean .mericans !ere not able to assimilate !ithin a
psychological spirit that !as consistent !ith ho! they looked at themselves.
=o it !ould be at that point" !ith the establishment of the marketplace
component" and accelerated marketplace dynamics--and the multinational
structure" and the ne! technological dynamics that !ould lead to marketplace
sophisticationQremember" the %F3s and %)3s" that !as a time period !here the
ne! technology !as put into service" !hether !e%re talking about the &a@i era
and itler%s use of media" or about radio in .merica" or the building of the
railroads in the middle '933s" and ho! important that !as6 continental
experiences. =o ? can relate to #uBois" !ho !ould come to understand that
the situation !as the same for the .frican .merican intellectual or
restructuralist" in the sense that !hatever they came up !ith" it !as irrelevant.
?t !as irrelevant" one" because there%s no natural constituency--and by that ?
mean there%s no natural constituency in the .frican .merican community" in
the !ay that existed in the %F3s and %)3s because of segregation" and the
possibility that" !ith segregation" the .frican .merican community !as able
to have an information spectrum based on its o!n vibrational balances" !hich
even then had complexities" but still" everything !as allo!ed to happen. .nd
!e see that in Birmingham" looking at the earlier experiences that =@!ed
!rote about" in seeking to understand !hat Ra came up !ith. We see it in
Chicago$ that !as !hat ? gre! up in" the tail end of that Washington 2ark
experience" !here you had composite dynamics happening" guys on soap
boxes talking about ?slam" concepts of black .frican Christianity$ composite
music exploration and investigation. .ll of those +ualities !ere included in
the black community" !hen suddenly !ith the Bro!n versus Board of
Dducation decision" and the deconstruction of segregation" in a composite
context" those forces have not been able to be understood as clearly" because
in fact the restructural tradition of the music has become gnostic" as it !as in
the beginning any!ay. ?ndividual" and gnostic--that being" the individual%s
idiosyncratic secrets" and the secrets of the group. That%s !here my system
comes in.
- Gou mentioned also about the #emocrats being the false identity latelyQ
. That ? could no longer relate to the Republicans or the #emocrats" that
4Aa@@4 has become an instrument of the #emocratic 2arty" that 4Aa@@4 has
become an instrument of liberal-conservative thinking" connected to the
=outhern strategy" and that !hat !e see here is a Reconstruction that involves
even the reconstruction of celebrated family dynasties" !hich are being
posited in this space" and those dynasties are controlling the composite
information lines based on the agreed affinities of that group !ith the upper
political strata forces. Which ? don%t disagree !ith" but ? do disagree !ith the
fact that only one sector has a connectionC
- Gou%re talking about the Bush familyC
. ?%m talking of the upper hierarchy" !hether it%s the Bushes" or Kennedys--
the real money and the ne! real money" the ne! billions" and the
multinational net!orking that%s taking place throughout our country$ and the
defense industry that acts as a shield that serves to spread the money all
around the countries inside of this net!ork. -ost .mericans have nothing to
do !ith it" except those directly involved in it" those !ho are bidding on
contracts representing billions and billions of dollars as a norm" that Congress
and the ouse negotiate. These components that run our country continue to
run our country$ and 4Aa@@4 no! is finding its niche !ithin this place" and the
nature of this niche involves certain sacrifices. =acrifices that ? can%t accept"
even though ? can understand on some level some of the trade-offs involved.
But in the end" the ante-bellum vie! of transafricanism has al!ays been a
vie! !ith profound limitations. .s !e see those vie!s perpetuated and
for!arded in this time period" ? feel there is profound danger in allo!ing those
variables to go for!ard. But no! it%s too late any!ay. ? think the .frican
.merican community comes to the Third -illennium in a very complex stage.
*or instance" !here in the past the .frican .merican community functioned
as a kind of a pository for profound vibrational and mystical currents" because
of the last forty years" and because of the intellectual decline that%s taken place
in the .frican .merican community" !e no! find ourselves in a position
!here !e see state-of-the-state generations that are actually behind state-of-
the-state current +ualities in many !ays. .nd !e find a reverse problem" -ike
effley" that%s in my opinion very profound. That +uality is this6 !e%ve seen
the neoclassic guys !ho got into po!er in the %93s 5the Eincoln Center Aa@@
scene> tell the .frican .merican young men and !omen" 4#on%t listen to
Braxton" don%t listen to Roscoe -itchell" don%t listen to Eester Bo!ie" don%t
listen to -uhal Richard .brams.4 =o the young people took them at their
!ord and did not listen. .t the same time" all over .merica and all over the
planet" Duropean .mericans" Duropeans" .sian .mericans" .sians--composite
peoples--have in fact been digesting that music" have in fact been listening to
the music of Cecil Taylor" have in fact been listening to the music of =unny
-urray" have in fact been listening to the music of /eorge Russell" or my
music" or the great music of 1oseph 1arman and Eeroy 1enkins or Eeo =mith or
enry Threadgill.
-y point is this6 as !e move into the Third -illennium" ?%m seeing a
generation of Duropean .mericans and trans-Duropeans !ho have been
reactivated by their ability to study this music and find that not only !as the
music relevant for them but to find that it also activated components in their
life that allo!ed them to continue their !ork based on their o!n situation"
having nothing to do !ith me. That%s ho! creativity functions6 that is to say"
creativity has al!ays functioned on the tri-plane on many different levels6 as a
!onderful !ay to have a dance" creativity is a !onderful !ay to be motivated"
creativity is a !onderful !ay to understand poetic logics" to look at narrative
structures$ creativity is a profound factor connected to curiosity" intellectual
curiosity and spiritual depth and insight and postulation. =o for the last four
decades of young .frican .mericans to not have exposure to" for instance" the
..C-" or =un Ra" people !ho have been totally dedicatedQin the case of
the ..C-" the first organi@ation of .frican .mericans !ho came together
because of their total belief in the music" and total insistence on going their
o!n !ay and responding to the post-.yler" post-Coleman" post-Taylor musics
based on their o!n value systems--to have young .frican .mericans not
exposed to that music" or those musicians" or the results that came from those
experiences !as a profound phenomenon that !ill have profound implications
in the next time period.
- .s you !ere saying all that" ? !as thinking of the scene in Durasia. ? think
of it no! as Durasia rather than Durope" because !hen ? !as over there ? sa!
more of a connectionQ? mean you see t!o things6 one" the victory of the
.merican capitalist culture in the Cold War" !hich has caused a lot of the
people in Western Durope" ? think" !ho started out radical in the %;3s and %B3s"
like the *-2 people and their peers in *rance and Dngland and else!here" to
go back also in the neoconservative direction. But you see too that the fall of
the Berlin Wall is kind of analogous to the deconstruction of segregation over
here" in that it came !ith a price. The people from the Dast !ere in the one-
do!n position" !here they !ere still in touch !ith their o!n ancient culture
and negotiating it !ith the modern !orld of Communism. =o !hen
Communism broke do!n" a lot of them returned in various interesting !ays"
and no! they have to negotiate those !ays !ithin .merican capitalism" so
there%s this same foment going on !here there%s a lot of pressure for them to
conform to that" but they%re reluctant too for the same reasons you are" or that
anyone critical of the directions that integration is taking" and the prices that
have had to be paid over here. =o it%s sort of happening on a !orld!ide level.
. Geah" but !e%re not talking about Aust the crisis of integration$ integration is
al!ays happening" people are al!ays coming together in different !ays.
We%re talking of the crisis of composite reality" !here some components are
controlling the variables of that reality" and some components are becoming
the effect of that position of control. That%s !hat !e%re talking about. ?%m for
integration" ?%ve al!ays been for it$ but !hat ?%ve tried to focus on is the
problem of a composite reality situation !here certain sectors are presented
!ith not the full information spectra of !hat has come out of their experience.
?%m also talking about the challenge of time$ more and more" the challenge of
time itself is redirecting some of these arguments" !here the +uestion of is it
Aa@@ or is it not Aa@@ is becoming irrelevant. ?%m only interested in creative
music$ if the Aa@@ people are making a big distinction bet!een their !ork and
creative music" fine. What they%re doing is limiting the !hole dynamic
implications of !hat that continuum !as in its original position" and" in doing
so" making it clear to those of interested in composite reality that !e should
look at creative music happening in other spectra any!ay. ?f it%s not happening
in bebop" let%s look for it in =!edish folk music$ ?%ll take creativity !herever ?
can find it. ?%m no longer deluded.
- =o !hat !e%ve seen of the Ken Burns film seems to place it right in line
!ith the concept of the =outhern strategy. 7ne of the things /ary /iddins said
in it that stuck in my mind !as something like 4above all" Aa@@ is a music
about time.4 That reminded me of ho! your body of !ork%s most important
innovations has been expansions of the musical timefield" or this dealing !ith
time in a !ay that made the Aa@@ police say early on that your problem !as
you didn%t s!ing. /oing along !ith the Ken Burns" Wyntonian vie! of Aa@@"
their bottom line seems to include that Aa@@ must s!ing" Aa@@ has regular
metered time$ there%s a certain philosophy about time that seems to come
do!n to the organic heartbeat and all this. But !hen !e talk about opening up
and going into the future" Aust on sheerly musical termsQdo you have
anything to say about musical timeC
. ? have a lot to say about musical time. .s far as ?%m concerned" these people
are talking about the phenomenon of time as a political !eapon" as opposed to
the phenomenon of time as a !ay of marking space inside of infinity. .ll of
these matters" in my opinion" go back to the modern gambit 8and this is a
different polarity gambit than !hat .shmenton attempted in Trillium 7" and
that%s another subAect: that says" 4The Duropeans are responsible for all that is
intellectual and intelligent and evolved" !hile the non-Duropeans occupy
another spectrum" that being called" for our purposes" Rhythm and Blues and
=!ing. =o !hen someone talks about 4s!ing4 in Aa@@" one gets a sense that
they%re talking about something that is superior to ho! the phenomenon of
time !as perceived and captured by other ethnic groups or in other time
periods and in other forms of music. This" to me" is Aust another example of
the concept of the ?.K. as Aust another mechanism that can be used to proclaim
that one person is superior to another person" and that his or her life is more
valuable than another person !hose ?.K. is less. This !ay of looking at basic
fundamentals is profoundly fla!ed" in my perspective. The concept of time is
important in every music. Time !as important to Bach$ the classical musics
have their o!n inner life and !ays of 4s!inging.4 The !ay of time in gagaku
and in gamelan music is very different" but also very important to the great
masters of those music traditions" and to the great music systems and
compositions themselves.
Time is used in a different !ay in Aa@@$ it%s not superior or less superior" it%s
Aust different. &ot only that" the phenomenon of time in Aa@@ extends to metric
time and pulse time. . great musician like =unny -urray" or -ilford /raves"
!ould demonstrate a fresh experience of time. What these guys are talking
about" in my opinion" is rhythmic motion and action--!e use !ords like
4syncopated"4 but that doesn%t really describe the multi-dimensional gravallic
rhythmic logic that takes places inside the music !e call Aa@@. That music is a
tri-centric rhythmic logic that expresses the real time of individual body
conAunctions" vibrational event spark conAunctions" rhythmic line-forming
attraction Auncture$ summation density Aunctions. There are many different
kinds of rhythms" many different kinds of time parameters" strategies" and
mechanisms. What they are doing" in my opinion" is" again" participating in
reductionism" and reductionism is the key !ord" in my opinion" that can help
us understand !hat%s happening here. Reductionism in terms of the dynamic
implications of given .fricanisms. When .ndre! Cyrille is playing
percussion" more than Aust one level of decision is being made. To have these
t!o-dimensional concepts about blues and s!ing are false arguments"
arguments that make sense to a certain sector of musicology--certainly" to a
certain sector of music theorists" and the academy. .rguments that can be
used to isolate the vibrational spectra of trans-.frican invention and mystic
dynamics. To strip that information and use it for their o!n purposes" !hile at
the same time denying the thrust of trans-.frican" and" finally" .merican
invention" its proper vibrational components--because !hat ?%m talking of is
something more profound than .frica. ?%m talking of the greatest nation in
documented history$ ?%m talking about our home" -ike effley.
7ur home is a home that has everybody here" bouncing off one another. 7ur
home" especially as !e move into the Third -illennium" is more complex
than simply a Christian nation6 it%s a -uslim nation" it%s a Christian nation" it%s
an ?ndian nation. ?t%s a nation !here !omen are suddenly not in the same
position" and are suddenly able to ask the +uestion" 4!hat do ? !ant for
myselfC4 ?t%s a country !here this next generation of .frican .mericans are
not going to be able to talk about disadvantages in the old !ay$ but in fact" the
components of the old !ay !ill apply. =till" ? agree !ith the Duropean
.merican !hose family came here t!enty or thirty years ago" !ho says 4*uck
the notion of me sacrificing my life for some .frican .merican guy because
of something some Duropean .merican guy did t!o hundred or three hundred
years ago. *uck that notion$ ? had nothing to do !ith those crimes" ? have a
right to my life" and ?%m not going to go for any idea that says that ? have to
sacrifice some component of my life to pay back something that ? had nothing
to do !ith.4 ? say hooray for that young person.
- Thank you$ ?%ll go along !ith that.
. Because this idea of t!enty acres and a mule6 it%s a great idea" but the only
problem is nobody !ants to give t!enty acres and a mule. ? !ould say this
much6 ? am prepared to accept ,., billion" for Aust me$ !e%ll have to sacrifice
all those other .frican .mericans. /ive me ,., billion" and then after that ?
!ould like another 933 billion for the military" a special militia that ? !ould
!ant 8?%d rather not say any more about that:. ? !ould also ask for another (33
billion as part of !hat ? !ould call a contingency fund that ? !ould also rather
not discuss any further. ? !ould also !ant F,B.) !ishes" Aust in case anything
goes !rong !ith the coins" ? !ant the !ishes" because ? have plans" 1ack.
.lso" ? claim all of the galactic high!ays" and there !ill be a tax increase. ?%ll
bring in the Bush family if they play ball.
With the exception of that" this idea of t!enty acres and a mule has
established a dangerous psychological component. ?t seems to me that the
.frican .merican community might have to give that one up$ or the idea of
having every member in Congress !rite a letter of apology to us" to our
daughters and children" our grandchildren" and...even a very special letter to
our puppies" in !hich each senator apologi@es in !riting" and you can see the
tear stains on the paper. ? think that the .frican .merican community should
forget about that. This idea of being angry someho! distorts composite reality
!here" in fact" as .mericans" as complex as .merica is" !e have more
possibilities in our country than !hat all of our people seem to !ant to
recogni@e" !hether they%re .frican or Duropean .mericans. -ore and more"
the .frican-.merican community is going to have to turn around and
understand this6 not only !ill the .frican-.merican community in the Third
-illennium have to compete !ith Duropean .mericans" but also !ith the
ispanic .merican community" !ith the .sian .merican communityQ
- With &ative .merican casinos.
. GesI Because everybody in the !orld is fighting for their lives" and the
+ualities of the Third -illennium that this phenomenon is only going to be re-
formed" but the same fundamental !ill be at !ork6 each individual !ill have a
life" and !ill have to fight to evolve themselves and compete !ith their
generation. ? believe that this time period !e%re going through no! could be a
healthy time period if the .frican .merican community rediscovers the old
spark. There !as a spark in the .frican .merican community that !as a
dynamic intellectual spark$ it didn%t come from the academy" it came from the
street$ it !as a spark that !as interested in everything" interested in the !orld.
?f from that perspective it could continue to evolve its !ay in time and space.
There !as a spark that understood that" one" !e no longer could accept
Duropean fantasies about sexual reality$ t!o" !e could no longer afford to
accept trans-Duropean generic concepts about spiritual reality and social
reality.
? believe that the future is going to be exciting" and that for everybody--but
you%ll have to keep up.
- There%s a lot of /ermans !ho !ould like to hear !hat you Aust had to say
about !hite guilt !hen it comes to the olocaustC Goung /ermans trying to
shake off their past.
. ? !ould say this much" not Aust to those young /ermans but to our young
people6 there is no people on this planet !hose documentation is not complex.
That%s part of our experience as humans. &o! as an .frican .merican" of
course" ? understand" very clearly" that had the continent of .frica discovered
gunpo!der and put together the modern technologies" that there%s no !ay that
the .frican community !ould have committed the atrocities that the
Duropeans !ould undergo in their experiences in .merica and .sia. 7f course
this is the case. *or instance" there%s never been a !ar in .frica$ there%s no
documented evidence on the planet of any .frican person ever even striking
another .frican person. Why" !hen ? think of the great Tutsi and utu people"
the experiences in Central .frica and Dastern .frica" there%s no discord" and if
there is" ? blame it on the Duropeans.
- .lso" of course" there%s never been slavery in .frica.
. &o .frican !ould ever enslave another .frican. =o ? can imagine an
.frican nation !ith F, -bombs not using any of that material after 2earl
arbor" because the .fricans are peace-loving people.
=o the history of our species is a history that says that there%ve been great
moments and also complex moments. When ? think of the Third -illennium"
the +uestion is not !hether your ethnic group has had a rough time$ the
+uestion is" !hat is the future" !hat role do you !ant to have in the futureC
Eook at !hat%s happening in ?ndonesia right no!" or in .frica" ?ndia and
2akistan" or in parts of .merica. The !orld is changing$ if you think you !ere
a slave before" you ain%t seen nothing yet.
- mm. =o let me ask you a couple of things about your o!n !ork. 5!e both
laugh uproariously>. We !ere talking about time 5more laughter> and ?%m
recalling that in your o!n !ork" you have a place for putting out records that
are 4in the tradition"4 and they s!ing" they sound like Aa@@ groups" the
Tristano" Charlie 2arker" -onk tributes you%ve done along those lines. But
you also have these pieces that extend the pulse in the same !ay that the
Korean music does" for instance" !here there%s a long slo! thing !here you
don%t feel the beat so much. .nd you have other music that have pulse tracks"
!here the beat shifts from the meter up to the pulses you mark$ and you have
other musics !here the time is sort of like a moment-form experience" !here
the contours of the music define the rhythmic accents someho!. .nd you
have other musics" like recently" !here you are playingQthe /host Trance
has a regular kind of a beat" but it%s" as you call it" a trance music. =o ?%m
!ondering" since you%ve given your definition of ho! the 4Aa@@4 purists limit
s!ing" and rhythm and blues and all that politically" do you think of your o!n
body of !ork as representing different states of mind that are like your o!n
birthright as a person" so that you have a place !here you can go !here you
can Aust meditate in a !ay that doesn%t have a hectic beat$ or you have another
place you can go !here the hectic beat puts you in a trance. ? mean" is that a
!ay to describe these different areasC
. *or me" part of !hat fascinated me about the !onderful discipline of music
is that there%s so many different kinds of music" and each kind puts you in a
different state and gives a different set of components to experience. o!
!onderful it is to have an opportunity" for instance" to experience the uni+ue
+ualities of the music of" say" Thelonious -onk" and then to experience" say"
the great !ork of Ralph =chapey. Dach music gives a different set of
components to experience" and different !orlds to experience. This aspect of
the discipline ?%ve al!ays loved. 1ust as" for instance" here !e are at Red
Eobster6 !o! it%s nice sometimes to have some fish. ? don%t like to have fish
every day" but it%s nice sometimes. ?t%s the same !ith music. There are times ?
can say for myself" especially" !here ? like to hear really strong musics. There
are times !hen ? !ant to hear something very spatial" that%s not so strong.
There are times !hen ? find tonal musics to be kind of interesting" and there
are times !hen only something that contains an active rhythm !ill do. =o
everything depends upon ho! you define it. But the consideration of time" if
that%s !hat !e%re talking about" has to be looked at from a composite
perspective.
*or instance" !hen ? think about time in the seventh restructural cycle musics"
!hen ? had to make a decision about the !orld of time" ? had many things that
could help me. 7ne" ? had the consideration of time that !as evolving out of
Cecil Taylor%s music. ? had the consideration of time that !as evolving out of
Karlhein@ =tockhausen%s musics" and the different kinds of logics that he !as
developing. ? had the consideration of time that Charlie 2arker had evolved"
and his concept of line-forming logics" as !ell as the response by Eennie
Tristano" !hich !as a more chromatic response. .ll of this !as available" it
Aust depended on ho! you !ere looking at it and !hether or not you chose to
deal !ith it as such. But yes" ? !ould agree !ith the idea that time !ould be
one of the variables that is exciting about the music$ it%s Aust a +uestion of
!hat that .merican philosopher William 1efferson Clinton said6 it all depends
on !hat your definition of the !ord 4is4 is. 5laughter>
- Geah" ? thought of you !hen he came up !ith that lineI
. Clinton is the masterI
- Keeping !ith this discussion of musical time" and philosophical time"
!e%ve touched on a lot of excitement about the past and tradition" and ho! it
might feed your o!n !ork in a lot of different !ays--but there !as also a tone
of pessimism about ever really getting beyond life in the cracks" and getting
past the =outhern strategy. .nd yet" the music is all about hope" as is the lie"
and in the car on the !ay over !e !ere talking about actual concrete strategies
and plans about hope in the future. =o the !ay ? !ould peg all that direction to
a +uestion of time is this6 throughout your !hole proAect" you have al!ays
referred to macrocosmic time. Gou tend to say 4this time cycle" that time
cycle" this time @one" that time @one"4 and you have a good grasp of history" so
you%re al!ays talking about this thousand-year cycle" that thousand-year
cycle.4 .nd you%ve talked a lot about the millennium" like the one that%s been
coming up. .nd no! here !e are in that Third -illennium. .nd ? remember
in your Tri)Axium 5ritings you !ere talking about sort of a millennial kind of
time !hen things !ould come to a head in history and a better !orld !ould
emerge" to put it simply. Gou !ere talking about !omen in the Tri)Axium
5ritings" and about a certain kind of tipping point" !here all the !orld%s
religions that prophesied about the last days and so on !ould come about into
Jtopia. Gou !ere speaking in mythological terms. But given that !e are
actually no! in the Third -illennium" and that you have this thing in your
consciousness as being a musician" an artist !hose medium is sound in time"
do you see something special about actually being in the Third -illennium in
the sense of having things turn around for the !orld to give birth to these ne!
directions and realities that !e%re talking about" in a !ay that sort of seems
like exciting" and 4in the hand"4 rather than some sort of dream that you can%t
really ever get toC
.B Thank you for your !onderful +uestion" -ike effley" as usual. ? can
relate to your +uestion" and ? !ill have to break it into little components to
deal !ith all of it that ? can understand. *irst of all" yes" ? am totally excited
about the future" ?%m totall grateful that ?%ve even been able to be alive to even
see the Third -illennium come in. *rom my generation--and !e%ve talked
about this before--'(90 !as the future. This is no! the post-future. To even
be here in the Third -illennium" and to have the opportunity to experience
this" ?%m elated and grateful. ?%m hopeful of the future" and yet" in keeping !ith
your +uestion" ? came to understand very early that if ? !anted to continue my
!ork" ? !ould have to understand that not only !as it not probable that ?
!ould have normal possibilities to demonstrate every aspect of my !ork--
especially the notated musics--that the !hole proposition !ould be complex.
=o in different cycles ?%ve gone into debt to get a piece performed" and then ?
!ill recover in five years or so" then go into debt again. That has been the
story" say" from 4Composition 9F for *our 7rchestras.4 Right no! ? still have
five more years to get out of debt for 4Trillium R"4 yet at the same time" ?
understood that this !as going to be a complex direction. .nd yet" for me" it
!ould be the only !ay$ it !asn%t like ? even had a choice. This !as !hat ?
!anted to do" this is !hat ? still !ant to do" and ?%m still excited about it.
7kay" the next level of your +uestion6 !hat am ? thinking about for the future"
and ho! does that relate to my !orkC Well" ? remember the phrase" 4for those
!ho are planting seeds" trees !ill gro!.4 ?%ve been !orking on my proAect for
), years. ? remember 1ohn Cage commenting that many of his colleagues
!ere angry at him because he !as having so much fun !ith his music. But it
!as only because he had been !orking at it for )3" 03" ,3 years$ and it !as
only because he had made all the sacrifices that he had to make to !ork !ith
his music. =o he did not have a life of making a lot of money" of being totally
successful in the !ay some of the guys have been. But among the
underground" the people !ho !ere interested in the future" and trying to
evolve" !e came to love him and recogni@e that his !ork !as part of the real
mystic tradition of restructural development$ that his !ork !as a part of that
effort that led to men being blasted off and landing on the moon. This is !hat
? !anted to be part of--that group" those musics" !hich !ere the musics of
curiosity" the musics of motivation. When ? go back to thinking about
Composition '')"4 that composition !as one of the first of the holistic musics.
Eet me back up Aust a little bit before !e get into the rest of this +uestion" to
set the right backdrop. ?n the beginning" formula musics" alternative coding
musics" taking from people%s initials$ formula musics" +uasi-serial adaptations$
schematic musics" looking at the composite time space and then dividing that
time-space up. Eanguage musics" t!elve identities in the house of the circle
that could be used for improvisational strategies" to place !ith the schematic
musics$ dimensional dra!ing constructions" musics that more and more start
to factor internal components in terms of designations about factoring real-
time pitch logic integration and strategies. ieroglyphic structures as a means
to start factoring in holistic musics" color and sound$ Composition B;"
factoring in gesture and movement. *inally" Composition 9F" spatial traAectory
musics" coming after /ruppen and Kari" and 2olytrope for 7rchestra by
Renakis$ traAectoral coding strategies. Composition '')" holistic strategies$
Composition 'B0" gradient logic strategies" and area-space mapping musics$
Composition 'B," /arthstone Castle" an example of area-space mapping
musics. /host Trance musics" focusing in on the house of one" the house of
=hala$ the house of =hala from a tricentric standpoint" fulfilling the poetic
dimensions of the Tri-.xium Writings" going from there into the Trillium
operas into" no!" the house of one" as the mystic identity space of one. /host
Trance musics into the form-scheme-space models6 continental spaces" as in
the Jnited =tates being a continental space. ?n the context of my system"
going through the t!elve great lands of my system as akin to #isneyland" a la
post-#isneyland constructions that have tri-centric virtual experiences for
t!elve sonic playlands that demonstrate continental mapping experiences for
the friendly experiencer" single or group tours. When ? think of the future" ?%d
like to continue to !ork !ith my proAect" to go through the house of t!o" the
house of three" the house of four" to build a music that%s consistent !ith all of
the defined parameters of my system6 the galactic parameters" stories about
going into space" mapping space. ? !ant a music that e+uals the human
genome proAect$ ? !ant a music that e+uals the proAects of &.=. going into
space !ith different traAectories that start to map galactic particulars. ? !ant to
fulfill all t!leve operas of the Trillium musics" !hich !ill also be
accompanied by the book of =hala" the book of .shmenton" the book of 1oreo.
-y proAect has al!ays been" one" an individual thing$ t!o" it%s al!ays been a
tri-centric thing$ and three" it%s al!ays been an occult position.
&o! to deal !ith the next aspect of your +uestion6 the heart of the !ork that
?%m trying to do" on the plane of symbolic musics" and ritual and ceremony" is
to create a context of experience that !ill bo! to the concept of" one"
transcendent realities--and by that ? mean gods" goddesses" and mystery
children. T!o" a concept of transcendence that connects the !orld of ideas
into the !orld of apparent reality that finally connects into the !orld of
transcendence" !here" one" the ghosts can come back and play$ t!o" it%s
transtemporal" past present and future is one unit$ three" everything is in every
tempo and there%s a connection into any part of the tri-centric parameter.
Three" ? !anted to build a context of experience that%s tri-centric that maps my
experience" including the house of humor--especially the house of humor"
!ith my experience--and also the house of unemployment. =o that !ould be
my response to your +uestion.
- That%s a great response$ ? can%t even comment on that. ?n other !ords"
!hatever happens" happens in conAunction !ith reality" rather than a picture of
reality.
. .nd also it happens in conAunction !ith !hat ?%ve been building. ?n the end"
!e have this all-consuming &o!. =peaking only for myself" as a barefoot
country boy" ? Aust !ant to do my little !ork" get all muddy" get do!n in there
and do the best ? can do. That%s all one can do6 kick it about" roll the
motherfucking dice" and let the chips fall !here they may.