This document discusses three conceptions of "postmedia":
1) Felix Guattari's notion of a "post-mass media age" with more decentralized media production and subjectivity.
2) Howard Rheingold's idea of "post-media operators" engaged in small-scale digital media distribution networks.
3) Rosalind Krauss' concept of the "post-medium condition" in art, which undermines medium specificity in favor of more installation-based works. The document provides historical context and examples for each conception.
This document discusses three conceptions of "postmedia":
1) Felix Guattari's notion of a "post-mass media age" with more decentralized media production and subjectivity.
2) Howard Rheingold's idea of "post-media operators" engaged in small-scale digital media distribution networks.
3) Rosalind Krauss' concept of the "post-medium condition" in art, which undermines medium specificity in favor of more installation-based works. The document provides historical context and examples for each conception.
This document discusses three conceptions of "postmedia":
1) Felix Guattari's notion of a "post-mass media age" with more decentralized media production and subjectivity.
2) Howard Rheingold's idea of "post-media operators" engaged in small-scale digital media distribution networks.
3) Rosalind Krauss' concept of the "post-medium condition" in art, which undermines medium specificity in favor of more installation-based works. The document provides historical context and examples for each conception.
1. Introduction, Two Hypotheses, Summary The notion of "postmedia" has been the subject of debate for several decades. The following text will try to highlight the main trends of those debates. My first hypothesis is that there are three different conceptions of "postmedia" which need to be looked at separately and which have to be understood as distinct the notion of "post!mass media" "as conceptualised by #$lix %uattari& 'oward (later& a.o.)& the notion of the "post!medium condition" of contemporary art "*osalind +rauss& ,icolas Bourriaud& a.o.)& and the notion of the "digital as post!media" "-eter .eibel& /ev Manovich& 0omenico 1uaranta& a.o.). These three discourses will be introduced in the following sections& not with the aim of offering full& let alone critical analyses& but in order to facilitate a more differentiated approach to the notion of "postmedia". My second hypothesis is that there are significant interferences between the different conceptions of "postmedia" and that interesting insights can be gained from a comparative reading of the three discourses. At the end& 2 will hint at some of these interferences in order to suggest epistemological vicinities and distinctions between the three concepts& and in order to mark potential starting points for a discussion between the three rather separate discourse communities. . Post!"ass "edia 2n the short history of "post!media"& the term was probably first deployed around 3445 by the #rench psychiatrist and philosopher #$lix %uattari who used it to call up the image of a "post!mass media age" in which the regime of the mass media of the 3465s and before& would be overcome and replaced by a situation in which individuals and groups would have access to their own multiple channels and means of expression. %uattari had this vision even before the arrival of the .orld .ide .eb& but based on his experiences with 2talian and #rench pirate and community radio& and the #rench proto!2nternet Minitel system. %uattari7s discourse on post!media forms a relatively small part of a broader& "ecosophical" conception which pleads for a combined transformation of social& psychological and environmental aspects of the contemporary condition. 2mportantly& %uattari connects the notion of post! media to forms of subjectivation that are not tied to the mass media7s commercial mega!structures which construct homogenised media consumers& but to a heterogeneous media ecology in which diverse and singular subjectivities and collective assemblages can emerge. Throughout his writings& %uattari refers to the mass media with contempt& 8ualifying them as a stupefying machinery that is closely wedded to the forces of global capitalism& and that is co!responsible for much of the reactionary hyper!individualism& the desperation and the "state of emergency" that currently dominates "four!fifth of humanity" "%uattari 3449& p. 4:). %uattari makes a passionate plea for a new social ecology and formulates& as one step towards this goal& the necessity& "to guide these capitalist societies of the age of mass media into a post!mass medial age; by this 2 mean that the mass media have to be reappropriated by a multiplicity of subject!groups who are able to administer them on a path of singularisation" "344<& p. =<). To induce this "shift away from oppressive mass!mediatic modernity toward some kind of more liberating post!media age in which subjective assemblages of self! reference might come into their own" "3464& p.46)& %uattari explicitly mentions the "technological development of mass media& especially their miniaturisation& the lowering of their costs& and the possibility of using them for non!capitalistic ends" "344<& p. =9). The "age of planetary computeri>ation" "3464& p.35?) is an era of "a monstrous reinforcement of earlier systems of alienation& an oppressive mass!media culture and an infantalising politics of consensus" "ibid.)& but more than the previous historical phases& this age also holds the potential of radical change for the better. "All of this& 2 repeat& provided that society changes& provided that new social& political& aesthetic and analytical practices allow us to escape from the shackles of empty speech which crush us& from the erosion of meaning which is occurring everywhere "...)." "3449& p. 4:) A decade later& around 3446& and already under the impact of 2nternet! and digital media!based communication and distribution media& this motif was developed further by the British cultural theorist 'oward (later who described "post!media operators" as the media practitioners and activists who work in the dispersed field of independent music& print& image and online production. /ike %uattari& (later defined post!media practices or post!media operations in opposition to the mass media. 2n his attempt to describe specific practices& rather than pointing to a general media!ecological situation& (later claims that post!media practices are characterised by small& diverse& distributed networks of operators who make use of the then new& digital means of production and distribution. -ost!media practice grows out of the networked activities of passionate individuals and groups working in local and translocal contexts and using such media as maga>ines& record labels& websites& club events& mailing lists& etc. 0ifferences in these networks are not eliminated but relished. -ost! media practice is characterised& according to (later& by a critical attitude towards the media in use& acting in lateral rather than vertical configurations& and an acceptance of the processuality and continuous transformation of context and practice. %uattari7s understanding of a post!media age as an historical context for political media activism and for the concept of "tactical media" has recently been re!appraised by @lemens Apprich. 'e refers to the history and theory of media activism as it was pinpointed by the positions of 'ans Magnus An>ensberger and Bean Baudrillard around 34:5& harking back to Bertolt Brecht7s "*adio!Theory" of 34?C. .e might add .alter Benjamin7s considerations about new forms of authorship and of participation in his 34?< essay& "The Author as -roducer"& to this genealogy of post!media practices. Apprich suggests that in the post!media times of the early C3st century& when electronic and digital media increasingly permeate all walks of life& the practices that were understood as distinctly "activist" or "tactical media" in the 3445s& have become part of "everyday "post!media) life". 2n media theory& writes Apprich& the "transformation of classical media structures towards new collective assemblages of enunciation "...) was accompanied by a dialectical movement first in the 3465s& postmodern media theory jettisoned +arl MarxDs criti8ue of ideology and abandoned all hope of an emancipatory use of media technologies& and& subse8uently& the tactical media movement of the 3445s rejected this 8uietist standpoint of "academic) media theory in order to re! invent new forms of media activism. This Edouble disengagementD ultimately opened up new fields of counter!hegemonic agency& thus enabling a variety of media practices that are still valid in a post!media era." #. Post!"edium $ondition o% Art At the end of the 3445s& F(!American art critic *osalind +rauss used the notion of the "post!medium condition" to point to a shift in the production of art that took effect around the 34:5s and that meant the undermining of "medium specificity" in contemporary art. The artist through whom +rauss first analysed the post!medium condition in 3444 was Marcel Broodthaers& to whose work "Goyage on the ,orth (ea" she devoted a notable essay. 2n a more recent volume from C533& called "Fnder Blue @up"& +rauss picks up the theme again and develops her criti8ue of post!medial art practices at greater length& critically contrasting post!medium practices with the work of several artists H like .illiam +entridge& Bames @oleman& Ad *uscha& @hristian Marclay& (ophie @alle& or 'arun #arocki H all of whom +rauss ennobles as& literally& "knights of the medium". +rauss develops her argument with reference to the art critic @lement %reenberg who had infamously insisted on "medium specificity" as the hallmark of modern painting. "#or %reenberg& the nature of a medium was established by brute positivism painting is flat; sculpture is three!dimensional and freestanding like an object; drawing is the cursive tracing of edges and boundaries as opposed to painting7s access to color and penumbra. %reenberg7s specificity is empirically tied to a physical substance." "+rauss C533& p. :) *osalind +rauss seeks to establish a criti8ue of artistic practice that uses a more complex notion of "medium" on the one hand& and that on the other hand holds on to a conception of specificity which she contrasts with the notion of a "post!medium condition". 2n order to gain such a more complex understanding of the mediality of art& she introduces alternative concepts like "technical support"& "automatism" "(tanley @avell)& or expressions like "figuring forth". The post!medium condition& "characteri>ed by the term installation art& is engaged in the constant rehearsal of 0uchamp7s inaugural gesture H the entry of ordinary components into the context of some form of aesthetic institution& whether museum& gallery& or art fair H in order to ask& once again& the general 8uestion H ".hat makes this artI" H rather than the specific one of the medium." "C533& p. ?C) 2nstead& +rauss focuses on artworks and settings of their presentation that support the possibility of "perceptual judgement" "The white cube is the base we touch with our eyes& the way the edge of the pool is the surface against which we kick in order to propel ourselves back through the water." "C533& p. 6=) 'er heroes are the "knights of the medium" whose works she analyses& teasing out the ways in which they re!invent what art can achieve through a particular medium "The inventors of technical supports as a new form of recursivity are challenging the post!medium insistence about the end of the space specific to art7s autonomy& what conceptual art dismissed as the white cube; instead they rely on the resistance of its walls to penetration& the way the sides of a pool provide the swimmer with a kicking post against which to propel himself in a new direction." "C533& p. C9) +rauss critically comments on the discursive shift from "medium" to "media" at the hands of C5th!century media theoreticians who she calls "@assandras of the medium" "Fnder Blue @up has relied on the historical importance of the aesthetic medium as the specific support for a given practice H artisanal& academic& industrial. .ith the advent of modernism& this insistence on specific mediums H as the recursive source of the object7s meaning H became absolute. Absolute then became obsolete at the hands of the media7s most famous theoreticians& Marshall Mc/uhan and #riedrich +ittler; for the former& media are modern communication vehicles& while they are technical storage& translation& and transmission systems for the latter." "C533& p. ?9) +rauss7 analysis of the post!medium condition of contemporary art was affirmatively 8uoted and shared by the #rench critic and "*elational Art" curator ,icolas Bourriaud. Bourriaud& however& draws radically different conclusions from this analysis while +rauss insists on the artistic inferiority of works that do not display and reflect their own medium specificity& Bourriaud is convinced that the "post!media condition" is part of a liberating transformation of the arts& away from the modernist corset towards what he calls "alter! modernity"& a modernity not in the hegemonic .estern tradition& but one that mixes its themes and theatres as much as it mixes its styles& materials& and media. Bourriaud suggests that the "post!media condition" should be whole! heartedly embraced& instead of H like +rauss H holding on to an obsolete and& as he suggests& +itsch understanding of medium specificity. Bourriaud reverses the %reenbergian thesis and asks ".hat if the contemporary form of +itsch was nothing but the enclosure of artistic theses in the golden frame of traditionI And what if true art was defined by its very ability to escape the determinacies of the respective mediumI Jr put differently& it is today not necessary to fight& like %reenberg& for the preservation of an avantgarde that circles around the specificity of its means& but for the indeterminacy of the source code of art& for its dissemination& so that it can prove to be unassignable H in contrast to the hyper!formating which paradoxically characterises +itsch." "C554& p. 395) &. Digita' as Post!"edia 2n a discourse that presents itself as unrelated to either %uattari7s or to +rauss7& artist& curator and theorist -eter .eibel proposed in C559 a conception of the "post!media condition" that is less aesthetic than technological and social. 'e describes an historical lineage in which the applied and media arts have inherited a subaltern status from the %reek techn$ and the *oman artes mechanicae. .hile the techni8ues of calculation& automation and the machinic were& until recently& derided just as manual labour and crafts were in the past& the success of digital technologies has brought about a revaluation of these techni8ues also in the arts& analoguous to the liberation of people from the lower orders of society through the social revolutions of the 34th and C5th centuries. .eibel describes the historical process which led to this revaluation and in which 0iderot7s Ancyclop$die and later the new "culture of materials" triggered by -icasso& Tatlin& Aisenstein and others& played a crucial role. 2mportantly& .eibel claims that the traditional media of the fine arts only became recognisable as media under the influence of the technical media ".e have to distinguish between old technological media "photography and film) and new technological media "video and computers) on the one hand and the arts of painting and sculpture on the other. Fntil now& the latter were not considered to be media at all. Fnder the influence of the media& however& they came to be regarded as such& i.e. as non!technological old media. .ith the experiences of the new media we can afford to take a new look at the old media. .ith the practices of the new technological media we can also embark on a fresh evaluation of the practices of the old non!technological media. 2n fact we might even go so far as to say that the intrinsic success of the new media resides less in the fact that they have developed new forms and possibilities of art& but that they have enabled us to establish new approaches to the old media of art and above all have kept the latter alive by forcing them to undergo a process of radical transformation." .ithout mentioning %reenberg& .eibel goes on to describe the process through which painting conse8uently receives attention as a medium with particular aspects and characteristics which result from its material and technical specificities "like the technical dispositif of canvas and frame)& or from competing conventions of representation in the technical media& like photographic realism. More recently& the digital computer is further transforming the conditions of making images or sculptures ",owadays all of art practice keeps to the script of the media and the rules of the media. This notion of the media comprises not only the old and new technical media& from photography to computers& but also the old analogue media such as painting and sculpture which have been transformed and influenced under the pressure of the technical media. This explains why we can rightly say that all of art practice keeps to the script of the media." The post!media condition& according to .eibel& not only brings about a transformation of the meaning of individual media& but it also leads to new combinations and mixtures of artistic media "The secret code behind all these forms of art is the binary code of the computer and the secret aesthetics consist of algorithmic rules and programs. "...) The computer& as it were& can simulate not only all forms and laws of the universe& not only the natural laws; it can also simulate the laws of form& and the forms and laws of the world of art. @reativity itself is a transfer program& an algorithm. #rom literature to architecture& from art to music we are beginning to see more and more computer!aided transfer programs and instructions& control mechanisms and guidelines for actions. The impact of the media is universal and for that reason all art is already post!media art. Moreover& the universal machine& the computer& claims to be able to simulate all of the media. Therefore all art is post!media art." The idea of a retrospective transformation of the understanding of "old" media through the experience of "new media"& was also put forward by /ev Manovich in a rather tentative text of C553 that proposes the notion of "post!media aesthetics&" i.e. the application of concepts derived from digital media "data organisation& storage& software& interactivity& information behaviour) to the history of art. More radically than .eibel& Manovich claims the possibility to review historical art practices through the lense of digital technologies& though the focus of his argument lies on the suggestion to develop a set of aesthetic criteria that are suited to the structures and affordances of digital media. This technological understanding of the media also motivates the more moderate position taken by (iegfried Kielinski who sees "art after the media" as something that is still in the making& as "an art of experimentation which needs the media neither as legitimation nor as special sensations& but which neither blocks its eyes& ears and cognitive tools from them." "C533& p. 3C<) 2n his book entitled "After the Media"& Kielinski presents something of an intellectual biography in which contemporary art seems to have played only a secondary role. 'is comments on "after the media"!artists like Armin /inke and& as the only more extensively discussed example& the @hapman Brothers "p. 396!3=<)& are rather cursory and do not match Kielinski7s variantological contributions to an understanding of the "media before the media". An argument that combines .eibel7s argument about the struggle for social recognition of media art with Manovich7s claim for new aesthetic parameters deriving from digital technologies& has been put forward by 2talian critic and curator 0omenico 1uaranta who was also the first to juxtapose the "postmedia" notions of +rauss& %uattari and .eibelLManovich. 1uaranta7s main focus though lies on the relationship between the ",ew Media Art world" and the "@ontemporary Art world"& and on reasons for the lack of recognition of the former by the latter. This theme has also been analysed by Adward (hanken who more explicitly looks at the historical development of what he regards as a split between "Mainstream @ontemporary Art" and ",ew Media Art". 1uaranta raises important 8uestions about the necessity to open up the discourse about artistic media towards practices that engage "the media". 'owever& it is 8uestionable whether the emerging media ecology under the "post!media condition" H whichever version you go by H is well described with the 3445s concept of "the information society". 1uaranta writes "our postmedia world "...) in which it no longer makes sense to distinguish "...) between art which uses computers and art which doesnDt; a world in which on the other hand it increasingly makes sense to distinguish between art that acknowledges the advent of the information society and art that retreats to positions typical of the industrial era we are moving out of. 2t is according to this distinction that in a few decadesD time we will be able to identify the academia and avant! garde of the present day." "C53?& p. C3C) Aven .eibel cautions against an overestimation of the impact of media art in the art world ".e could therefore be tempted to ask whether the effects of the new media on the old media have actually been more successful than the works of the new media themselves." (. Inter%erences The previous sections have offered no more than superficial scans of complex and diversified discourses which would each deserve further attention. 2n the comparative effort of this text& 2 would like to point to at least a small number of instances where interferences between the three discourses can be observed& instances which hint at articulations& connections and divisions between them& and which would each re8uire a much more elaborate discussion than 2 can provide at this stage. +rauss vs. media theory *osalind +rauss epigrammatically identifies "three things" which occurred around 34:5 and which jeopardised the "specific medium" "postminimalism and its rejection of the minimalist literal object "...); conceptual art and its declaration that the object was now supplanted by the dictionary definition of art as such "...); and 0uchamp7s eclipse of -icasso as the most important artist of the century." "C533& p. C5) (he fre8uently returns to these pivotal three things and adds two more in the course of her argument the rise of poststructuralism and deconstruction as a fourth "p. C<)& and "media" as a fifth "p. ?:). Anigmatically& +rauss had suggested that her book& "Fnder Blue @up&" might itself be such a fifth thing "p. C9)& but this denotation is then left to the impact of the "@assandras of the medium"& Mc/uhan and +ittler "cf above). The discourse on the "post!medium condition" of contemporary art is thus& according to +rauss& tangentially implicated by the media theoretical discourse that fuelled .eibel et alii7s conception of the "digital as post!media". -ost!media as hybridity Buxtaposing .eibel7s "post!media condition" and *osalind +rauss7 "post!medium condition" elucidates how .eibel looks at the technological development and focuses on the technical aspect of artistic practice which& under the condition of the digital "post!medium"& takes place in a medial continuum. 'e writes "@onse8uently& this state of current art practice is best referred to as the post!media condition& because no single medium is dominant any longer; instead& all of the different media influence and determine each other. The set of all media forms a universal self! contained medium. This is the post!media condition of the world of the media in the practice of the arts today." +rauss& in contrast& looks at individual artists& their practice and at the way in which they deploy "technical supports" and invent aesthetic concepts& shoring art up against the indistinct post!medial flood that .eibel embraces. +rauss and .eibel have different conceptions of mediality and of materiality& which also means that not only their respective appraisal& but also their very understanding of what constitutes "hybridity" is different& a concept which has yet another inflection in the writings of ,icolas Bourriaud. *ecruiting Bourriaud ,icolas Bourriaud7s metaphoric references to network and computer culture as inspirations for his own curatorial work& are 8uoted by 0omenico 1uaranta in an attempt to recruit Bourriaud and his anti!+raussian position into his own argument about postmediality. .e should be wary though that Bourriaud would have rejected the technologically determinist understanding of post!mediality that 1uaranta adopts from .eibel and especially Manovich. Bourriaud has been avoiding the notion of "medium" altogether and instead developed the non!technically determined notion of the "radicant" H a tactical rhetorical move not dissimilar to +rauss7 adoption of terms like the "technical support" and "automatism". +rauss& .eibel& and the medieval guilds *osalind +rauss seeks to extract her own conception of the "medium" both from the %reenbergian modernist understanding of the self!referential art object& and from Media Theory7s empty vessel. 2nstead& she suggests& as a model for her medium& the understanding that the medieval guilds had of the affordances of their materials and objects& and the rules that applied to their production. "C533& p. ?!:) This image of a collectively held conception of the medium resonates with .eibel7s appraisal of craftsmanship and the tradition of techn$ and artes mechanicae which& according to .eibel& are rehabilitated by the emergence of the technical media in the arts. 'owever& what mainly attracts +rauss to the guilds is the dialectics of material& processual and symbolic difference which gets executed in the process of art making& whereas .eibel is fascinated by the historical breakdown of social hierarchies in the process of technological progress. (later& %uattari and conceptual art .hereas #$lix %uattari speaks about contemporary art only superficially& 'oward (later has occasionally written about contemporary music and art& especially conceptual art& in order to develop a discourse that takes the %uattarian ecosophical thinking as a framework for thinking through artistic practices. 2n this vein& he has sought to rescue a particular political strand of conceptual art which (later "C555) has contextualised with the debate about post!media& without& however& making reference to the prominent position of *osalind +rauss. (ubjectivities The three discourses on postmedia speak of significantly different notions of subjectivity. #or %uattari and (later& post!media practices and the age of post!media are associated with subjectivities of groups& of ever! unfolding differences& of heterogenesis and collective assemblages& signified by the hori>ontal distributions and connections of networks. +rauss focuses on practices of the autonomous individual& whether this individual is acting as a self!conscious artisan among artisans& or as an artist inventing and deploying a medium. Bourriaud conceptualises the notion of the "radicant" in opposition to both the "radical"& rooted in the notion of the modern individual& and against the "%uattarian) "rhi>omatic" notion of a heterogenic& distributed subjectivity instead& the "radicant" is a trajectorial subjectivity& it is singular& yet without local roots and under constant negotiation. "And& like +rauss7 knights& the radicant is probably able to perform as an actor in the art market...) #inally& .eibel7s conception of the subject is probably best described as social! democratic "The ultimate effect of all this is to emancipate the observer& visitor and user. 2n the post!media condition we experience the e8uality of the lay public& of the amateur& the philistine& the slave and the subject. The very terms Euser innovationD or Econsumer generated contentD bear witness to the birth of a new kind of democratic art in which everyone can participate." )iterature Post!"ass "edia @lemens Apprich *emaking Media -ractices H #rom Tactical Media to -ost! Media. /Mneburg -ostmedialab Blog& C53?. "httpLLwww.postmedialab.orgLremaking!media!practices!H!tactical!media! post!media; ?5.=.C53?) .alter Benjamin The Author as -roducer. "34?<) ,ew /eft *eview& 2L=C& Buly! August 34:5. Bos$ /uis Brea /a era postmedia. 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Digita' as Post!"edia /ev Manovich "-ost!Media Aesthetics." Fnpublished paper& C553. "httpLLwww.manovich.netL0J@(L-ost\media\aesthetics3.doc) 0omenico 1uaranta "The -ostmedia -erspective." "Text published on *hi>ome in C533 revised for the book publication) 2n Beyond ,ew Media Art. Brescia /2,+ Aditions& C53?& p. 3::!CC5. Adward A. (hanken Art and Alectronic Media. /ondon -haidon -ress& C554. Adward A. (hanken Y@ontemporary Art and ,ew Media Toward a 'ybrid 0iscourseIZ "in progress since C554) -eter .eibel "The -ost!Media @ondition." "C559) 2n "-ostmedia @ondition." Madrid @entro @ultural @onde 0u8ue& C55=. "n.p.) "httpLLwww.medialabmadrid.orgLmedialabLmedialab.phpIlQ5XaQaXiQ?C4; ?5.=.C53?) "Jriginally in %erman in 0ie -ostmediale +ondition. Axh. catalogue. Adited by Alisabeth #iedler& @hrista (teinle& -eter .eibel. %ra> ,eue %alerie %ra> am /andesmuseum Boanneum& C559& p. =!3?. (iegfried Kielinski ... nach den Medien. ,achrichten vom ausgehenden C5. Bahrhundert. Berlin Merve& C533. *enera' Andreas Broeckmann "Towards an Aesthetics of 'eterogenesis." "344=) "%erman version "Medien]kologie und ^sthetik der 'eterogenese." 2n nettime "eds.) ,et>kritik. Materialien >ur 2nternet!0ebatte. Berlin 20!Archiv& 344:& p. 36=!C55.) +ristoffer %ansing Transversal Media -ractices Media Archaeology& Art and Technological 0evelopment. Malm] Fniversity& C53?. @laus -ias "Ad.) .as waren Medien. Berlin 0iaphanes& C533. Boseph Gogl "Becoming!Media. %alileoDs Telescope." 2n %rey *oom& #all C55:& no. C4& p.3<!C9. +ote This paper is a work in progress. (ome of its ideas were first presented in a seminar at /euphana Fniversity of /Mneburg in the spring of C53C and at the "Fnneeded @onversations" symposium at the #aculdade de Belas Artes da Fniversidade do -orto "#BAF-)& in May C53C. The text will be included in Fnneeded Texts& Gol.C& -orto& iCA0(& C53< "forthcoming) 2 am grateful to the students who contributed to the discussions in /Mneburg& especially to Anne +omischke for her suggestion to knight ,am Bune -aik& to Miguel /eal for the kind invitation to -orto& and to Wvonne .ilhelm& 0omenico 1uaranta and @lemens Apprich for their comments on earlier versions of this text. BerlinL/Mneburg& : Buly C53?