Grinding Lathe Tools On A Belt Sander - For The New Guy - MachinistBlog

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Grinding Lathe Tools on a Belt
Sander For the New Guy
misshapen, multi-faceted, overheated and just plain ugly lathe
tools I made back then. The amazing thing is that some of
those tools actually worked as well as the pre-ground tools
that came with my lathe. I started to believe those guys that
tell you, just get it close and it will work. Of course, I was
too embarrassed to call myself a hobby machinist with those
Franken-tools so I bought an expensive set of inserted tip
carbide tools that I thought would make a major difference but
was disappointed. They couldnt rough as deep or finish as
well as my ugly high speed steel (HSS) tools, at least not on
my lathe, so then I believed those guys that tell you, stick
with HSS on a hobby lathe. Hey, desperation can make you
mighty receptive, you know.
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Fast forward 15 years and now I believe, after having ground
many experimental tools, that the best lathe tool for a
hobby-class lathe is a HSS tool with its tip geometry modified
to reduce the cutting forces it produces, ground on a belt
sander.
Since standard tools are intended for use on industrial lathes
their geometry can produce cutting forces that are excessive
at times, especially when roughing but this can also affect
sizing and finishing cuts. To be clear, cutting force is that
force produced by the tip geometry of the tool that must be
overcome to make a cut. We can look at it as a continuous
resistance generated by the shape of the tool as it is pushed
through the material during the cut. A standard HSS tool has a
broad, wedge shape and creates a lot of resistance (carbide is
even worse), so we must dial down our control inputs (depths
of cut, feeds and speeds) to use them. If we alter the tool so
it has a narrower included angle it cuts with less resistance,
achieve better accuracy in sizing and finishing cuts, and finish
better with greater ease before running into the rigidity and
power limits of the lathe. And this is exactly what happens.
To demonstrate this I took a 0.050 deep cut in 12L14 mild
steel on my admittedly older hobby-class manual mini-lathe
using a very good quality inserted tip carbide roughing tool with
a new insert, a sharp freshly ground high speed steel (HSS)
roughing tool with standard tip geometry ground for steel, and
the general purpose tool with modified tip geometry (not
optimized for steel) that was ground for this discussion.
The
carbide
tool made
the cut but
chatter
was
excessive.
Speed
was as
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2 of 13 2/6/2014 5:55 PM
chips are
tiny and
powdery.
Reducing
the depth
of cut to
0.010, the
proper
depth of
cut for this
insert,
allowed it
to cut as it
should.
The HSS
roughing
tool did
fair but
there was
a lot of
chatter.
Speeds
and feeds
had to be
adjusted
almost
constantly
to make it
this far.
Finish is
rough but
not
excessive
for a
roughing
cut. Chips
are tightly
curled due
to the
standard
side rake.
Reducing
the cut to
0.030
allowed
the tool to
work much
better.
3 of 13 2/6/2014 5:55 PM
The
modified
tool cut
easily,
speed was
about 100
RPM
higher than
with the
other tools
and there
was no
chatter at
all. Finish
is much
better
compared
to the
other
tools. The
chips look
more like
loose
shavings
due to the
sharper
included
angle at
the tip.
Chips from
the
carbide
tool, HSS
rouging
tool and
4 of 13 2/6/2014 5:55 PM
going on at
the tip of
the tool.
As you can see the modified tool performs favorably compared
to the standard HSS and carbide tools, and I assure you they
size and finish better as well. The trade off for this enhanced
performance is a reduction in tip strength but most small lathes
are not rigid or powerful enough to break a tip off, even with
pretty aggressive cuts so its an acceptable trade off.
These modifications are not some deep dark secret. They
are simply an alteration to the standard angles in ways that are
already known to reduce cutting forces. You just need to know
what to change, when and how to change it, and by how
much. Grinding these changes into the tool then becomes very
simple and will allow you to tailor the tool to your specific lathe
and needs.
If this interests you then follow along as we go over basic tip
geometry, at least enough to grind a tool with, and discuss
how these modifications can be made. Ill talk you through the
thought process used to alter the tool we grind so you get a
feel for what youll be doing in your shop. Then well grind that
tool on a belt sander, pretty much step-by-step, to solidify the
concepts. Well finish off by showing you the Knife Tool, a
facing tool I can highly recommend. Due to the length of this
discussion I will break it up into three parts.
Please understand that tip geometry and cutting forces are
extremely complex subjects. Entire books are written about
this stuff by folks far more knowledgeable than me. I am not
an expert on this subject; my goal is to give you only enough
information to get you started and I consider this discussion to
be a supplement to your reading. Therefore, any opinions,
inaccuracies or errors are my own. The angle modifications I
am sharing here were derived from experimentation in my shop
and work for me and my lathe; your results will vary. These
changes are NOT necessary; you can grind standard tools just
as easily.
Finally, I am not a technical writer, engineer or pro machinist
just a guy like you so I will write this in a style and language
that I am comfortable with.
Experienced guy warning: Having been a new guy myself I
recall the early grinding days well enough to know where the
confusion points are. Accordingly, I am going to repeat and
re-emphasize some points frequently, in several different ways,
so that it clicks for the new guy. This will also be very detailed
and necessarily longer because new guys need detail in order
to succeed. For you more experienced guys, my apologies for
the nausea this creates. Please ignore me and move on.
As always, working with machines and sharp stuff can result in
injury or worse. Please be careful and proceed at your own
risk.
Fi rst, the gri nder
The bench grinder is the most commonly recommended tool
for grinding lathe tools. This machine tends to cut slow, cut
hot and cut facets. It may work in more experienced hands but
for the new guy maybe not the best tool to learn on.
A far better option for grinding lathe tools is a simple belt
sander, preferably one that uses 2 wide belts. These
machines are cheap, widely available and surprisingly capable
5 of 13 2/6/2014 5:55 PM
for home shop use. The smaller machines with 1 wide belts
dont have enough width to grind a tool evenly, the platen is too
flexible, the belts wear too quickly, and coarser belts are
harder to find.
As a tool grinder the belt sander is almost ideal:
Belt sanders cut very fast and very cool when you use the
right belt and a wax stick lubricant. Average grinding time
for a 3/8 HSS tool is under 4 minutes and less than 2
minutes for a HSS tool.
With their wide flat platens they allow for simple tool
alignment so facets are easy to avoid. This is far, far, far
better than trying to realign a tool to a narrow round wheel
that requires frequent dressing.
Belts are widely available, cheap, and do not require
dressing, balancing, or conditioning. They also have a very
good service life if used with wax lube.
Changing grits takes seconds and going from shaping to a
mirror finish by stepping up through the grits takes a few
minutes. Honing to a final polish is less than a minute
away.
Belts will snap at the splice occasionally, especially if they
are old. This will scare the crap out of you the first time it
happens but I find that preferable to an exploding wheel.
Know also that touching a finger to the edge of a running
belt is very, very bad for you.
Most common belt sanders are not perfect in stock form. The
OEM table is typically inadequate and needs to be upgraded
to a solid table that can be quickly set to precise angles. The
table should be made of steel to avoid sharp edges from
catching and dragging as you move the tool across the belt.
The stock mild steel platen on these machines typically wont
last long with any serious grinding done on it. I suggest buying
a ceramic glass liner you can epoxy onto a flat (preferably
ground steel) platen to greatly resist wear from grinding
operations. Better known as Pyroceram, these liners are
readily available from knife making suppliers for about $20.00
as of this writing. The key thing is that the platen remains flat
and does not flex at all. Once the table and platen are handled
a belt sander makes a fine tool grinder and will also handle
most other grinding jobs in the typical home shop.
Getti ng a handl e on the angl es
Take a look at this diagram from Machinerys Handbook
(MHB):
6 of 13 2/6/2014 5:55 PM
Fresh off
the belt
sander, all
the angles
in the
diagram
above
have been
ground
into this
roughing
tool for
steel.
Despite
the
complexity
of the
diagram
those
angles are
actually
simple to
grind, as
you will
see.
Lathe tools cut at a single point of contact so they are
commonly called single point tools. This point is the interface
between three surfaces the side, the end and the top. Each
of these surfaces is usually angled in two planes.
The words relief angle in the diagram above refers only to
the vertical angle of the side and end faces of the tool tip.
The words rake angle refers only to the horizontal angles of
the top surface of the tool. The words edge angle have to
do with how the tool is shaped; due to the wide range of
shapes a tool can take these edge angles are not found in
the typical angle table.
Relief angles are primarily clearance angles that allow the
tool to cut at the tip and upper edges of the tool without the
area immediately below rubbing against the work when the
tip is set to center height. They are critical angles in that
they form one half of the main cutting edge, the other half
being the top rake angles. Relief angles affect finish, tool
life, cutting forces and cutting temperatures. For a small
lathe we want to use the largest relief angles we can get
away with without weakening the tool. This is especially
true with finishing tools where larger relief angles prevent
7 of 13 2/6/2014 5:55 PM
rubbing and greatly improve finishes. Larger angles also
enhance penetration of the tool into the work for all cuts, a
good thing for a small lathe.
Rake angles direct chips away from the working area of
the tool. Note that there are two kinds of rake: side rake
and back rake . Of the two, side rake is far more important
for a turning tool, while back rake angles are less critical
(except on parting tools where back rake assumes the
importance of side rake on a turning tool). Different
materials require different amounts of side rake for efficient
chip clearance. In general, cutting forces will run
perpendicular to the side cutting edge and as the tool cuts
the chips will follow the path of least resistance. Rake,
particularly side rake, provides this path. Much of the heat
in a cutting operation is carried off by the chip so clearing
those chips efficiently will reduce cutting temperatures.
Being the other critical half of the cutting edge side rake,
and to a lesser degree back rake, has much to do with
reducing cutting forces. Cutting forces and cutting
temperatures decrease, and tool life increases as side
rake and back rake become more positive up to an
optimal point (MHB). Therefore, for a given set of rake
values in a cutting tool table you want to go for the higher
value for use on a small lathe to improve chip clearance
and reduce cutting forces.
You
may
see
the
terms
positive rake, negative rake or zero rake. Remember that
the top of the tool has two kinds of rake side and back
both can be positive, negative or zero. J ust look at the tool
from the tip: if the top surface angles away from the point
of the tool then it has positive rake. If it angles toward the
tip it has negative rake. If the top is flat the rake is zero.
For a small lathe you should avoid a negative rake tool
the cutting forces are too high.
Edge angles define the tools shape as seen from the top
of the tool. They vary with the purpose of the tool and also
by how much strength is needed at the tip. Tools meant for
heavy cuts, like a rougher, will have more mass at the tip to
handle higher cutting loads, while a finishing tool will have a
more delicate tip appropriate to the lighter cuts it is meant
to take. These angles are less critical than the other
parameters and are really dictated by your needs for tip
strength, finishing potential and access to corners.
The nose radius at the tip of the tool varies with the general
purpose of the tool. Roughing tools will typically have a
smaller nose radius, while finishing tools generally have a
larger nose radius. Note that a large nose radius greatly
increases cutting forces because it is constantly being
pushed out of the cut. For tools up to 3/8 square it is best
to limit the nose radius to a maximum of 1/64. You can
go up to a 1/32 radius on a finishing tool but lighter cuts
are necessary. When forming or grinding it you do not
8 of 13 2/6/2014 5:55 PM
need to measure the nose radius with a gage just
estimate it.
Honing a tool after it is ground is a controversial thing. Many
experienced machinists say they dont bother. However, any
edge defects that occur during the grinding process will
transfer to the work; we may not care too much about it for a
rougher but for a finishing tool this is not a good thing. Since
honing also extends tool life and reduces the need to re-grind a
tool I cant see a reason not to hone a tool.
Honing is best done with a fine or extra-fine diamond stone. I
prefer the solid surface stones on a steel base, not the plastic
base with dots. If I need to do a lot of stoning I use a 2 X 6
stone . If I am honing after grinding a tool on the belt sander
then I use the credit card size; they are cheaper and easier to
handle. I use the fine stone to get off most grind marks and
the extra-fine to obtain a nice homogenous surface.
Maintaining your tools after this will take only a few strokes per
face.
Hold the stone in one hand and the tool in the other. Focus
your pressure over the center of the face and stroke in one
direction lightly, preferably under a running stream of water.
Keep your wrists locked to avoid changing angles and creating
facets. I suggest honing the side and end first, leaving the top
of the tool for last; this removes any burrs and leaves a very
clean edge. Your goal is to remove all evidence of grinding
marks. Be sure to catch the nose radius when honing. If you
need the finest finish possible for your work hone the tool, then
polish it on a translucent Arkansas stone and your tool will cut
like a razor.
Now that we have a better idea of what all those confusing
angles are and what they do, we need to see how they are
used to make a lathe tool. Part 2 will look at the Angle Table,
how we can modify the angles to reduce cutting forces, and
well discuss the different shapes lathe tools can take.
In Part 2, well put it all together and grind a tool on a belt
sander.
Related posts:
Modifying a Craftsman 2 X 42-inch Belt Sander For Tool
Grinding
Tubalcains Lathe Bit Grinding Videos
Harbor Freight 130 Belt Sander Review
Pamper Your Tools
Posted in How-To, Instructional, Lathe | 19 Comments
19 comments to Gri ndi ng Lathe Tool s on a
Bel t Sander For the New Guy
Bill
September 5, 2011 at 10:00 AM | Reply
Hello
What type of tool post are you using?
Mikey
September 5, 2011 at 3:50 PM | Reply
Hey Bill,
The tool post is the wedge-style tool post from TS
Engineering. Its far more stable than the piston-style post
commonly sold for small lathes. Too bad TS Engineering left the
market; they made good stuff.
9 of 13 2/6/2014 5:55 PM
Mikey
Web design hull
Thanks Mikey, your guide has given me an insight
into what mistakes Ive possibly been making. Ive
been using a vintage grayson lathe to make a bell mouth out of
60mm mild steel bar. Ive only managed to remove 5mm metal
in 3 hours I now believe the cutting tools are wrong.
Mikey
Chris, youre welcome hope it helps.
Mikey
J orge
The first few weeks in the shop in the lathe section
when I went to trade school were spent on grinding
HSS tool blanks on pedestal grinders. Sure most people there
were in their early twenties but it didnt take more than that time
for people to be able to do the hand motion to make a flat
surface without facets with the round wheel.
With a pail of cold water in front of the grinder you can rapidly
rough out the cutter and finish grind it with the fine grit wheel
while quenching to preserve the temper. Its really not a big deal
to use the grinder this way.
In the job shop where I work some people sharpen tools with
the belt sander but the round wheel type, not the flat type to
shortcut and avoid facets.
For a home shop the only reason I can see to use a belt sander
over a grinder would be that replacing the belts is easier and
you are right about explosions, particularly near the end of life
span when you get cheap about using bald belts/tiny wheels. If
you can afford it I would grind my tools with a grinder then touch
up with a belt or hone when they get dull.
All the rest of your information about geometry is very good and
what I remember from school. After a while it becomes very
intuitive and you basically know what a tool should look like for a
given depth of cut/material ect.
Mikey
Thanks for your comments, J orge. A bench grinder
works no doubt about it. As I said, for an
experienced machinist a bench grinder is fine, especially if he
was trained with it and does it often enough to maintain his skill.
I can freehand a good tool on a bench grinder, too, but I much
prefer the cool cutting flat platen belt sander. Either way, as
long as we can get the tool we need then thats what counts.
My intention is to help the new guy get started and it remains to
be seen if that is the result. I threw a lot of info out there and
Im worried it was too much. Well see.
Mikey
jacky
October 21, 2011 at 1:56 AM | Reply
10 of 13 2/6/2014 5:55 PM
Have you ever use a lathe tool grinder.We are the
supplier of lathe tool grinder in China.
Mikey
October 21, 2011 at 6:11 AM | Reply
Im not sure what you consider a lathe tool grinder,
J acky. Are you referring to a tool and cutter grinder
or a bench grinder? I have a lot of experience with a bench
grinder and none with a tool and cutter grinder (mostly because
they are very expensive).
For shaping lathe tools the belt sander serves the home shop
guy well but if your company makes a tool grinder that is
affordable I think we would welcome a video showing how it
works. I would, anyway.
Welcome to MachinistsBlog, by the way.
Mikey
Max G
August 6, 2012 at 5:18 PM | Reply
Really need to give this a try.
Mikey
I would be interested to hear how it works out, Max.
Mikey
Max G
Well I gave it a go over the weekend. My disk /belt
sander only have a 25mm (1)belt on it. Used for
sanding balsa and ply wood only. It worked great. Much better
control on the sander than the bench grinder. I did have to
alternate between the disk and belt to get the shape I needed,
due to the belt support a few mm wider than the belt. Now Im
thinking of modifying my old little bench grinder into a twin
50mm belt sander. One fine and one coarse belt. That will give
me a good excuse to upgrade to a better bench grinder too.
Wally
August 17, 2012 at 11:02 AM | Reply
What happened to part 2 of this very interesting post
Mikey
Hi Wally,
Check the How To section under Categories in the
left menu bar.
Mikey
Wally
Many thanks Mike,this is excellent.Congratulations!
I only found this site a week ago and I now see how
to navigate around. As a knife maker I have good belt grinders
with belt width of both 30 and 50 mm. I am going to make this
into a project and hopefully Ill get to somewhere close to your
proficiency.
11 of 13 2/6/2014 5:55 PM
Wally
Mikey
Thanks for the compliment, Wally. I do hope it helps
you. Grinding tools gets easier with a good grinder
and it sounds like you have that already youll be very good at
it in no time.
Let me know if you have any questions.
Mikey
Anonymous
can you dip the tool in water as you grind the tool to
its shape
Mikey
Yes, you can dip the tool.
Anonymous
November 12, 2013 at 4:52 PM | Reply
where is part 2?
Mikey
November 12, 2013 at 9:42 PM | Reply
Here you go:
http://www.machinistblog.com/category/how-to/
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