Interview with Stephanie Schramm former Manson Family Member Interviewer: Brian Davis with Cats Cradle Location:

www.starcityradio.com/ October 9, 2011 Audio available: https://archive.org/details/TheTateLabiancaRadioProgramPodcastPage Brian Davis: Former Manson Family member, Stephanie Schramm. Stephanie, how are you tonight? Stephanie: Im doing great Brian, thanks.

Brian Davis: Wow, well thank you for coming on with us. Is this the first interview youve ever given? Stephanie: You know, absolutely its the first. I, for many, many years ignored that part of my past. If anything came on the radio, the television or in the news for almost 40 years I completely put it out of my head and didnt want to have anything to do with it. So I only recently when I decided I was going to write a book, I thought, well Id better find out a lot of stuff that I dont really know.

Brian Davis: Hows the book coming along? Stephanie: Well its coming along pretty good. I have an agent right now and Im about four or five chapters in and he likes it so well see where it goes. I know a lot of people on the website are excited to read your words and they really want to know what you do have to say, so were looking forward to it greatly. Oh absolutely. Stephanie what was your upbringing like? Well Id say we were probably upper middle class. My mom and my dad stayed together as I grew up, and probably like so many people of the time, I rebelled a little bit. I was looking for something other than the normal path. You know I was looking for that finding myself kind of thing and that kind of led me there. Where did you grow up Stephanie? In San Francisco? Im a San Diego native. I was born here in San Diego and I still live here. I had been up in that direction because I was on a trip with a friend of mine to visit his parents and that is kind of how I ended up in Big Sur. And of course that is where you would meet one Charlie Manson. Stephanie, if you could recall take us back to that day and talk about the

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circumstances that led up to the meeting with Charles Manson. Stephanie: Well this fellow and I were on our way back from Reno from visiting his parents and it was quite late at night actually it was early in the morning when we stopped at a gas station. When I went in to go to the bathroom there was a guy who said something to me on the order of, Hi cutie or Hi Beautiful. or something like that. When I came out of the bathroom, there was Charlie and one thing led to another and I told the fellow that I was with that I was going to go off with this guy and hes going to show me Big Sur. Well I have to ask you right now Stephanie, what was it about Charlie? Because that same scenario weve heard many times with the other girls. I think Squeaky was walking down the beach or something and she ran into the guy. What was about Charlie to you that made you drop what you were doing in life and take off with him. Well Ill tell you, people say that he was charismatic and theres probably a lot of other words similar to that but he absolutely was. He just had something and its hard to put your finger on it but he made you feel so special. He made you feel as though he could read your thoughts. He told you what you wanted to hear, somehow he knew that. How interesting. Because that much seems to be consistent about Mr. Manson. All of the other girls in the family have described him the same way. Okay, so Stephanie you guys were at the gas station and you leave the gas station with Charlie Manson, what did you two do next? Did you go back to the ranch or did you just drive around for a few days? We spent one night there and then we went by the Esalen Institute where I think Charlie had hopes to get some recording people on his side to record some music. Did you go in with him? No, I didnt. When he came out was there a change in his attitude at all? No. I had already at one point the night before seen a violent side of him and why I remained with him, I dont really know. Can you tell us about that? Well we met a couple of people hiking down one of the trails there in Big Sur and I think he was hoping that they would be able to provide us with

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dinner. I was pretty freaked out at the time and I think when they saw me they were afraid and they left. He came into the van and gave me a pretty good slap and said that I had ruined his chances for dinner that night. Brian: Stephanie: Brian: Wow and thats when the first red flag goes up. Yeah I know it should have, shouldnt it? Im sure it did. Im sure there was something inside of you at that time that said, I guess Ill stay with this guy but something isnt right. inaudible teenage girl wisdom too and I having been a teenaged girl we try to if someone is giving you what you think is love at that point in your life and then something goes a little bit haywire at some time then you think well that was just a fluke of some kind, he really didnt mean it or whatever and being a teenaged girl you probably had not been through the slap of a boyfriend hopefully or whatever and you couldnt understand what he was doing. Absolutely Cats and Charlie was 35 or 36 at this point. How old were you Stephanie at this point? I was 17. When he came out of Esalen was he even more angry? Well, yeah he was. He seemed to kind of stick to himself though then. I mean he was obviously angry, was not real communicative with me so I was just along. I was just kind of along at that point. And you guys headed back to the ranch after this, or how long was it before you went back to the ranch. We went back to the ranch, you know its a long long time ago and to the best of my recollection we went back to the ranch that same day. Stephanie there is a story that has been floating around for some time now. Some of Charlie Mansons supporters claim that Charlie told them he was not at the LaBiancas house that night, instead he was on his way back to the ranch with you and you guys got a speeding ticket. If we can find that ticket it will clear Charlie Manson of the LaBianca murders. Well he also claims that the ticket mysteriously poofed. Charlie supporters have claimed they have tried to track the speeding ticket down but it has mysteriously disappeared out of the court system.

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So Stephanie can you clarify anything for us about this eledged speeding ticket? Well to my recollection the ticket that we got for speeding was when he was taking me back down to San Diego to get my stuff. So it was not the same day. No. It was before. Because he took me to San Diego where I got my things. My guitar, my dog and we spent one night in San Diego. It was the day that we came back that the Tate murders occurred that night. And you had absolutely no clue. From what I read you went to sleep and that was that. You had no idea this was going on. No I didnt. And Stephanie what were your impressions of the ranch that first day if you can recall. You know the whole time that I was there everybody was extremely kind to me. I got along well with the other girls and I really had no idea anything like that was taking place. Do you recall arriving at the ranch? What was that like? Did Charlie bring everybody out to meet you? What was the experience there? Yes, everybody came over. Of course they were excited to have him back. Everyone, he introduced me and everyone was extremely kind to me. I was very nervous and I didnt want to be left alone and Charlie did spend a lot of time with me at that point. Was that to keep you around more, to keep you more in his control because he felt that you were nervous? You know, I dont know why. I had asked him Id said, Charlie Im very nervous. I dont know anybody here. I know you. Will you please try to be with me as much as you can? and he said he would and he did. Stephanie what were the living conditions like at Spahn Ranch during your time there and did you ever go on one of those dumpster dives? I never went on a dumpster dive, but I did eat the food from the dumpster dives. It was yucky it was dirty and it was all dirt around there too. It was a ranch. When I was there, he and I shared a small travel trailer that was towards or like behind the big house and thats where I slept. Some people slept in Georges house

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Did you get to meet George? Yes, I did. What was he like? He just looked like an old cowboy to me and I always kind of had a soft spot for him, I dont know why, what was he like? You know he was blind or as close to blind as you can be All I remember is he sat in his rocking chair and the girls waited on him. Pretty much what weve read through the years. So you get to the ranch and you meet everybody. Eventually you go to sleep. The next day, what was the demeanor around the ranch because obviously the Tate murders had just occurred that night. You know honestly, I have to be honest. My memory is not real good of the next day. I just remember kind of just hanging out. But I did notice that...it was probably maybe Patricia...Im not sure but they had a radio in the saloon and people were kind of glued to the radio. Okay. Now there has been some speculation through the years that Charlie and maybe some other family members went back up to the Tate murder scene later or early in the morning. Can you tell us if Charlie was sleeping or with you that whole night. Thats my recollection. He went to sleep with me, when I woke up during the night he wasnt there and he came back to bed I think if I can remember shortly before dawn. Okay. So the day after the Tate murders and going into what would be the LaBianca murders that night, was Charlie acting normal to you? Was he still the same Charlie? Yes. He wasnt abnormal to me. I didnt have a clue anything else was going on. We still did our singing and our communal meals and all that and you know I really didnt notice anything that would put me on alert. Now do you have any recollection of them getting together or them getting in the car and leaving that night to go to the LaBiancas? You know I do remember them piling into the car and leaving but other than that I really dont remember anything else. As far as Squeaky goes, in some of the video footage she comes off so wacky. Was she actually like that or was that a show for the cameras?

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I think it was a show for the cameras. To me she was a very intelligent and warm person. You know I loved all the girls there, I really did. Nothing but good feelings from them. Did any of the other girls stand out or did you get closer to any one of them in particular more than the others? Um Luish and Squeaky spent a lot of time with me. I enjoyed their company and to me they were still...you see I was there thinking that we were going to have a hippie commune. You know, grow our own food and everything was going to be communal and it wasnt what I thought it was going to be. I just have to ask about Clem too because some of the footage of him has him seeming so just well, mental. Was he actually like that? Well, the only thing that I can say because well I didnt know him that well was that he was very much under Charlies spell as were the rest of us. And thats understandable but somebody, I think this is wrong, but they outed him a couple of years ago and he did well with his life. He got out of jail, he married, hes a musician and you know if you didnt know it was him, you could go so he him playing and think wow this guy is good. Okay so Stephanie, the La Bianca murders had just happened, the Tate murders the night before that. There was the Hinman murder before that. Was tension starting to pick up? Are you starting to pick up that somethings not right around the ranch at this point? We did go to Devils Canyon and stayed there for a few days kind of camping out. You have to understand that for me, I had no radio and no tv. You know I had no idea that any murders had even occurred. No idea at all. Who went to Devils Canyon with you? Oh there were a lot of us out there. All the girls and Charlie of course and he came and went though. He came and went. We pretty much just stayed there for several days. I remember I got dysentery from drinking the water out of the stream. Oh it was horrible. So eventually you guys went back to Spahn Ranch. Were you there for the first raid Stephanie? Yes, I was.

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If you would, take us through that if you can recall. Well, to the best of my recollection and again, Im just telling you what I can remember. It was very very early in the morning,. Now was that before sunrise? I would say right after sunrise. I was woken up by noise, loud noise going on. At that point I woke up. Charlie wasnt with me, I was back in the trailer where we stayed and the police just started dragging us all out one by one into the front of the boardwalk there. We were just huddled there as a group, all of us. I can remember they brought my guitar out of the saloon and smashed it, looking for drugs or something. But I remember I was...ooh. I was mad. It wasnt until wed all been there for sometime that they finally came out with Charlie. Danny Decarlo, do you have any memories of him? Well, not so much. Just only who he was. I didnt have a lot of interaction with him. Okay.. Okay so the raid is taking place that morning and I assume they round you all up and bring you out on the boardwalk or out in front of the boardwalk. What happens then? They take you to jail? Hmm mm. And how long were you in jail and what happens when you get out? We were there for a couple of days. They had put all the girls in one big room with mattresses on the floor in my recollection it was kind of like a big slumber party. As far as I can remember we were there for only a couple of days, and then one by one they let us out. Stephanie what was your thoughts at this point? Because Im assuming you had no idea what this raid was about. No I really didnt. I assumed that they were looking for something that they didnt find and thats why they were letting us back out. Did you get released to your parents or did you get released back to the family? At that point I was released back to the family. There was another time

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where Charlie and I were arrested together. Cats: Stephanie: Brian: Stephanie: Oh. For the marijuana joint that Sadie put there? Yeah. Can you talk about that, or would you? Yeah. As best I can remember like I said. Um we had been in the trailer and I think it was Sadie, I think. Anyway, left what the police evidently thought was a marijuana cigarette for Charlie and I to smoke and shortly thereafter there were police there saying that it was pot. As far as I know it wasnt pot and we were let out but at that time my true age came out and I was released to my parents. At that time were they receptive to you coming back? Did they want you to come back? Its hard to say, God bless my parents theyre both gone now and what they put up with from me, I am so grateful and I know I was a teenaged girl and I understand. To know some of the things that the neighbors knew about me you know when my face was in the paper, you know and they still hung with me. But at that point I had only spent a couple of days at home and I was so in love with Charlie at that point that I probably would have rather been dead than not to be with him. I snuck out my bedroom window and I believe it was Clem and Squeaky and maybe someone else that actually came and got me and took me back to the ranch. Okay. So you get back to the ranch, was Charlie acting a little bit tense at this point? Heres the thing when I got back out to the ranch, he was already out in the desert. Okay, so did you go out to the desert then to be with him? Yeah we went out, but I didnt go out there with him. I went out there with, like I said I think it was Clem and Squeaky. I assume that was Barkers Ranch? Yes.

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And was he receptive to you coming back, were you welcome with the same intensity into the fold as you were first welcomed? Yes, at that time I was. Stephanie at this point there is the Hinman murder, the Tate murders, the LaBianca murders, youve been through a raid, youre all out in the desert. Are you starting to notice something at this point about Charlies demeanor, or is he still the same old Charlie? I wondered why we seemed like we were hiding. Why did we have to cover our tracks with bushes and stuff as we went through the desert? Why were we digging holes to get in? I kind of didnt understand and this is where it started to unravel for me. You know too, remember at this time, I still didnt even know any murders had occurred. I didnt listen to the radio, I didnt read the paper, hard as it may seem to believe. And theres no word leaking within the family. Theres nobody talking about it amongst themselves? Well, I heard a couple things and Im not going to share those with you, and I still even after I escaped from there and I call it an escape because it was. I didnt even make a connection for at least another week or two. It had to be ungodly miserable there between the heat and the hiding and walking into something that you expect. I mean that had to be utterly miserable. Yeah it was horrible. It was hot. It was dirty. We didnt have a lot of food. It wasnt good. Now I believe this is when Paul Watkins and Brooks Posten were somewhat making their break from the family or going back and forth, at least Watkins was. Supposedly they had hooked up with the guy Crocket up there. Do you recall that taking place? yeah just vaguely and I believe that when Kitty and I escaped I believe that it was them who got into their dune buggies and was searching for us. You think it was who? It was Watkins, and Crocket and Poston? Yes. And he was searching on behalf of Manson, or just to help you guys get out of there? No. Not to help us get out of there. It was our feeling, Kitty and I both that

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if they got us they were going to kill us. Cats: And at that point in time Kitty was raring to leave and you both, how many days did it take you to get through the desert to get out? Well we went out at night and the raid on the ranch took place the next morning out at Barker. At what point did you and Kitty come up with the idea that youre going to get out of there? How did that come to be? Well wed sit during the day, basically we were sitting and hiding during the days and so we would just talk. I can remember talking about things like Thanksgiving dinner and 31 Flavors Ice Cream and just normal things in life. She and I went to sleep one night and we had made a decision that we were going to quietly get up and sneak away. Okay, so take us through this if you can. Youve got two teenaged girls, you have to get up in the middle of the night, escape basically a bunch of maniacs and fumble your way through the desert, in the dark, against the elements. Is that basically what happened? Thats exactly what happened. We didnt have shoes on or anything. I remember having on just a little dress or something and we decided to stay high on one of the washes so that we would be able to see what was happening below. We just kept walking and there was a police car, a sheriffs car or something came down one of the dirt roads and we flagged them down. We went into, I dont know if it was Bishop or what... Was it...inaudible I dont think so, I think it was a larger town than that when they took us in. We did that night, you know Im sorry its fuzzy for me. But we did find like a minors camp and they gave us peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and we kind went on our way from there. The fact that they were going to raid Barkers was probably why you ran into the police car. You know what its a trait of mine and not a good one that things can happen in my life and around me and I dont analyze, I dont think about why, you know it just happens. If I were more of an analytic person maybe things would have been different for me but I take things as they come. Youre out, youre free, you get taken back I assume to a police station

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and your parents are called. At that point in time I can imagine that youre really happy to see them? Actually I was. And you knew I would imagine, this time, you knew you werent going back no matter what. Yes. You know Kitty did go back. She did and there is mega footage of her on the corner and I was going to ask you about that. I mean with all the fight to leave or whatever and what you guys went through. I mean you have you who you were done, youd just had it and then there is Kitty who just fluctuated back and forth. After your conversations with Kitty did you ever think she would go back? No. Theres no clue in her words or anything. Were you at that time when you were home I know that you were called back to testify. Were you watching anything on tv pertaining to the trial? Did you see Kitty back on the corner? No. Actually when I came home we had to stop in the police station in Anaheim. I cant remember exactly why. The officer there asked my father if he had a gun and he didnt. The officer said you might think about getting one. That was pretty freaky for me. Stephanie, I dont know if they contacted Kitty to get her back in the family or if she went back in on her own but did the family try to contact you after that? Well you know Brian they actually came to, I was going to a dog grooming school at the time and they actually came to the school and took me out for lunch and you know wanted me to come back. Who came to visit you? Im going to try to remember. I know it was Squeaky and it might have been Gypsy. So the girls come to take you for lunch and they try to get you back in for the final time. Were they persistent? They were fairly persistent but I think it was clear. Now what about when you to go back and testify. Were there threats being made at that point?

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No there were no threats. I remember seeing Snake and I think she was one of the people who testified against Charlie as well. She testified for the prosecution. Just about everybody else was still on Charlies side that I can remember. Do you remember being a teenaged girl and you had to take the stand in front of him, the girls and whoever else was out there in the galley watching the trials. You must have been terrified. It was pretty difficult. It was. I was scared. What was it like testifying and you have Bugliosi guiding you through. What is he - what does he do? Does he get you alone and say heres what I want you to say. Well between Bugliosi and myself it was very clear that there was very little I needed to say except that he did not spend the second night in San Diego. Because that was what he was trying to tell them. Thank you for clearing that up because theres been a lot of Internet chatter by supporters still of Charlie who say, Oh no no he wasnt no where near the ranch. So I want to thank you for clearing that one up. Yes he was going to try to say, I understand from Bugliosi that he was in San Diego that second night with me, and he wasnt. What are your thoughts on Bugliosi? Um, I like the man. I had some dealing with him and he came to our home, my parents home a couple of times to talk with me and I liked him. Alright. Fair enough. And I called him when I had plans to start a book. I actually got a hold of him and I asked him if I write a book, do you think in your opinion, will I be safe? He said, yes he thinks I will be. He said he doubts that anybody would retaliate against anything that I would do. But I still have that fear. Its something that I think would stay with anyone involved from back then throughout their lives, I would think. It does a little. But you know everything in my life has happened for a reason and you know its just part of who I am now. Sure...

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I have to ask one question quickly. Irving Kanerick Mansons lawyer - I mean you see the guy and hes just Mr. Objection and interjection and he just seemed like a total... I mean he got his points in..what did you think of Irving? You know I cant tell you too much because if it was televised, if it was written about or whatever, at that point when I left court I had nothing to do with it. I didnt want to look at it, I didnt want to see it. I didnt want to hear about it. I didnt want to read about it. What was the impact on you Stephanie when it finally sank in what you had been through with Charlie Manson, when you found out what he was really and what the Manson family were really all about at that point? Well Ill tell ya, its kind of an important part of my book but the way that I found out, it was kind of like an epiphany and I happened to be in a doctors office reading a magazine, in the waiting room and I went, Oh my God. But without revealing too much, thats not our point were just happy to hear from you and make sure you that things are good and get your truthfulness in the whole thing. Did you have years where you thought about this? Did you let it go? I mean youve built a life, things are good for you and what happened after that? You know Brian and Cats I went through a couple of failed marriages. I have three absolutely fabulous kids who are adults now, I have a grandson. I just a few years ago graduated from San Diego State, Magna Cum Laude (inaudible interrupted) You know I have a teaching credential but the teaching business, you know the educational business down here is not real good right now. So I just continue to groom dogs. I love it and its been good to me. And at some point Im not really going to get to deep into it because its probably really none of my business, your children; you had to tell your children about all this? Oh it was kind of an interesting way that they found out as well. Can I just tell you one little anecdote? Please. Please yes. A couple of years ago, and I think this is what prompted me to write the book as well. A fellow came into our shop and he was a writer, he wrote for the paper. Somehow the name Manson came up and he said something to the effect of; that slimy so and so, he should be put to death.

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I have to tell you that I was surprised at my reaction to that. I didnt agree with him and somewhere from down deep there was still something in me that wanted to defend him. Brian: Stephanie: Now do you feel that way at this moment? Can I say yes and no? It surprised me because its not the feelings that I have at the front of my brain. Its not that I even really gave it much thought as to his sentence. It was just the feeling that suddenly came to me when somebody spoke badly of him absolutely surprised me. I surprised myself. Was that because maybe they didnt know him, and you did? Yeah. I think that was it. There is always more to a person, you know, than you hear on the news. And thats what gave you the idea to start writing the book? Right. And find out where any of those feelings might have come from and where they may still linger. Like I say it came as a total surprise to myself and I wasnt exactly proud of the feeling. Do you understand? I do. I respect you for being honest with yourself. A lot of people cant do that. I totally understand that. So thats kind of where Im at right now. Im still trying to find out some stuff. Stephanie by all accounts you were probably the last girlfriend of Charlie Manson. Yeah. You know he gave me a wedding ring. I did not know that. Do you still have it? It was a hose clamp from an engine. Laughs. Laughs. Laughs. And no I dont still have it.

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Were laughing but he was probably serious when he gave it to you. Oh I dont know. It was kind of the fact that I was afraid to be there by myself and so he said, Okay this how much you mean to me and Ill give you this ring., and it was a hose clamp. Laughs Well on that anecdote Stephanie we will thank you again for sharing your story with us. We look forward to your book. I cant wait. I look forward to getting you back on with us here. Thank you so much for being here with us tonight. Well Brian and Cats thanks for having me.

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Transcribed by Gina Judd April 29, 2014 May be typographical errors.