i've thumbed through a few threads that mention initial cure of concrete specimens/cylinders.

i occassionally run acros and the contractor tries to blame the testing firm for the low break since there is no storage box on site. unless the spe direct me to provide a storage box on site, it falls back on the contractor to provide such a box since they are responsi materials on the site, and protection of the materials on site. and as usual, the supplier and contractor try to throw us usually resolved because the contractor provides a storage box, they reduce placement times, and they improve onsite many construction jobs going on very near this site and none of those guys are experiencing the same problem. so i'm on here since i'm sure contractors, suppliers, engineers, testing firms etc visit this site.

i've got a job that has many low breaks. the low breaks are typically within 500psi of the design strength (but too man break criteria). the passing breaks are all very marginal and usually within 300psi of the design strength. low breaks st of the job prior to the temps being high (highs were about 80-85). the contractor said that the low breaks were due to samples properly. i told the project team that we will gladly store the samples where directed at the jobsite and can pu is provided by the contractor. (if no box is available, we attempt to cover the samples with a box or semi-bury the cylin we also use plastic bags or plastic tops on the cylinder molds). and on a side note, we learned the first round of low br being sent to the jobsite--correct id number on the tickets but the plant had the wrong mix in their system. i have also having difficulties with batching consistency. so, we cored the area at 70 days old and the core breaks were 100-350 p the contractor stated that "we reviewed the break results and all the results are passing therefore the cylinders must b political and said that i reviewed the results and they looked reasonable to me given the age and strength--in other wo like the contractor is making toward me.

they finally provided a storage box so we've been placing the samples there. the low breaks are continuing with the pa they're saying that the testing firm is responsible because we're not keeping the initial cure temps regulated (in their s thoughts on how to be political about this without calling the contractor an idiot? i have maintained that we cast and te astm but that we're not responsible for the initial onsite storage conditions since it's not our jobsite. i also noted that a should be reduced in hot weather but the contractor continues to simply say we're leaving samples in the sun and not the sun, he means the storage box they provided is in the sun but implies we're leaving the cylinders laying out in the

a little more background: the placement times vary from 1 hour to 2 hours. concrete temps at the time of placement v are generally 5-6" range with occasional 8". 7 day breaks are typically about 50-70% of design strength (3000-3500ps design strength. 56 day strength are typically only 10% higher than the 28 day strengths. ~70 day old core breaks are strength. a little more background: these guys are very difficult to deal with since during the masonry work, they had never hea and were ready to fight when they were told to cover their materials onsite and to consolidate grout. we have not bee masonry inspections since the architect is pretty lax about the requirements and required inspections. in other words, t be difficult and get back at us because of his own lack of knowledge of the requirements. any thoughts on the best way to get this settled so that i can get on with work?
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boffintech (Civil/Environmental) It is an absolute must to get this issue resolved at the earliest possible time and to get the backup of the EOR and the Response to team:

An environment created by climate controlling equipment and facilities suitable for strength test specimen Initial Curing of ASTM C-31 is not available on site.

The lack of on-site Initial Curing facilities exposes strength test specimens to harsh extreme weather conditions potent performance (strength gain) which may result in the reporting of inconsistent and/or less than accurate strength test v

An Initial Curing facility for concrete strength test specimens is not in our scope of work. Per the project specifications facilities are the responsibility of the contractor:

ACI-301 SPECIFICATIONS FOR STRUCTURAL CONCRETE 1.6.3 Testing responsibilities of Contractor 1.6.3.2 Duties and responsibilitiesUnless otherwise specified in the Contract Documents, the Contractor shall assume given in 1.6.3.2.a through 1.6.3.2.g: 1.6.3.2.d Provide and maintain adequate facilities on the project site for safe storage and initial curing of concrete test 31/C 31M for the sole use of the testing agency.

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msucog (Civil/Environmental)

i agree. if the issue was simply who is going to buy a few bucks of ice per day to put in a storage box, i'd have no prob owner requested it (heck, that's only a few bucks per day). but the issue remains that if i am responsible for the specim site, then i will need to camp someone out to stay with the box. this whole thing is ridiculous to begin with but the contractor is just looking for something to put the blame on someon the supplier (they even emailed a link from the ready mix website that says it's the testing lab's responsibility). i've got from this site) and they're all going smoothly because the field procedures are much better on the part of the contracto miles away the contractor doesn't want to bother with a box at all and they've been doing just fine. they did have one supplier brought out a cooler with an ice bath. we actually stuck an extra one of our cylinders in his cooler just to see w initial curing. for the 28 day breaks, 2 sets had the iced cylinders 100-150psi lower, 1 set within 50psi, and 1 set had th range and scatter was identical to all the previous breaks. however, on that particular job, the contractor knows it's no to work with. thanks for the reference location. i knew it was out there somewhere but i could not recall where exactly it was. that w the specs on this job say the contractor is responsible for providing safe areas to perform tests and storage of samples read that part (they apparently didn't bother to read the statement of special inspections or general notes either). i've been trying to keep from kicking the contractor but they're leaving me little choice. i was hoping they would motiva placement techniques instead of dumping on me. i have little respect for contractors that cut corners but i have absolu cut corners and then point fingers at everone else instead of acting like grown men and accepting responsibility for the thanks again
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boffintech (Civil/Environmental) "i was hoping they would motivate themselves to improve their placement techniques instead of dumping on me."

Seriously? Have you been out in the hot sun with the cylinders to demonstrate the detrimental effects of being in extre Motivating themselves to do better is not in the genetic code of contractor DNA.
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msucog (Civil/Environmental)

i had a talk with these guys and project team back before they started having low concrete breaks. when the foundatio round and round about covering the masonry materials to protect from rain and blistering sun. i went ahead and ment speed on hot weather construction for both masonry and concrete work or they might see problems arise once they go

that i am available to try and answer any questions they might have. they have never once called except to argue that consolidating grout.

and i'm well aware of contractor's mentality as i once worked as a contractor for one of the largest contractors in the w insight in their minds). now, as an engineer for the testing firm, i refuse to do their jobs for them--contractors are paid construction techniques. i attempt to educate contractors that are willing to listen when ever possible. i have the fores same contractors again and again (especially on school projects) and i would rather try to help the contractors help the easier down the road. this particular contractor has taken it personally because they have never been exposed to IBC r picking on them. they've now got a vendetta against me because i won't simply sign off on their work. they threw out 30 years..." ha, they even said something to the effect of "yep, this code stuff is just way too conservative. it's all beca that cut corners."--i just chuckled and told him that i would agree with that statement about crappy contractors to som

and i did try to talk with the superintendent on the jobsite about some of the problems and he pretty much blew me o keep from having to kick the contractor in front of the entire project team, but i think the time for trying to be helpful thanks again for the 301 reference.
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civilperson (Structural)

Insulated storage boxes are STANDARD, add a recording thermometer if you wish to provide data for protection again source or cold block as necessary).
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DarthSoilsGuy (Geotechnical) just a side note: "we reviewed the break results and all the results are passing therefore the cylinders must be made incorrectly" Did you core your cylinders? oh wait those were broken. i'm guessing that letter wasn't sealed by a PE! :)

When dealing with contractors like this, what bothers me the most is the gut feeling i have that they would not honora were reversed. Also, when was "made" in question, hasn't it always been about curing? (oh no, that could be associat no, that could mean that the cylinders could be representative of something on-site that wasn't cored. or Oh no, What What about all the "good" breaks made by your firm. logic has the contractor s$#$canning those too.

Don't take it personally, the project manager is probably playing hardball so that they don't get "negotiated" into payin super is probably just being a d!@k b/c he usually doesn't have to waste his time babysitting his masonry subs on othe or because he has had 30 years of training in this field.

here's what i would do: Buy an air conditioner with a thermostat (also the hi-lo thermometer you should have there anyway if you don't) and c before the report goes out.

write a report to all about the structural concrete involved. Establish that the concrete in those areas meets the project ACI-301 based on the review of laboratory and field testing of concrete both during placement and in-situ.

At this point i would discuss how the core testing does not invalidate the results of concrete testing on this project to d

people would dwell on this, i keep it simple. point being a general attack on testing methods like that one is an attack

Then describe the initial curing as Boffintech writes. Say it has been addressed temporarily by your firm. Seal it and sh of course, it needs to be fact-checked, short, and written better than above, but you get the point. crap. this thing is too long. i've been nibbling on it in my back browser all day. adios dsg
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msucog (Civil/Environmental)

lol...thanks. i thought about it all weekend and decided to just pull the trigger on the contractor. i sent a copy of the p specs reitterate 301. i did stick a little jab saying that since the contractor was so insistent on having a cooled storage problem in their opinion) that perhaps they would immediately implement the necessary procedures to make that happ down this road when it came up before because i thought that the contractor had realized he was wasting time and no keep on keeping on and hopefully the issues will disappear off my desk...they're down to one last slab pour. maybe the instead of against us to maybe be more productive...i won't hold my breath though.
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msucog (Civil/Environmental)

update: had a meeting today. testing firm, supplier, contractor, engineer, architect, owner, and contractor. even after were responsible for initial curing. i just laughed. funny thing is that they complained the box (box they provided by th baking the specimens. the whole issue of the box came up because they said the low breaks were due to the specimen threw out that they made companion cylinders next to our tech one day, stored them in a manmade tent and their 7 d were 2400 for a 3500 slag mix (i saw malarky that they got 5200--that's higher than any of the submittal breaks and h breaks). again, the low breaks were happening before the box and we were shading the cylinders with our manmade t contractor claimed the low breaks were due to no box...go figure. come to find out that the mix was changed without another job where the same mix from the same plant is used for footings. the mix is 3000 and all this jobs breaks are job, knocking out 4000+ all day long. the contractor is now going to supply a water bath buried in the ground and sha to be the supplier will bump up the cement and the strengths will shoot up. i'm going to make companion cylinders to funnzies. i'm also going to request all the batch tickets to see how much of what is in the mix.
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BigH (Geotechnical)

Very tricky - just a quick query. What about the test results of other projects that the ReadyMix supplier is working on does the Ready Mix suppliers QC programme show? It is good point on something like this to have the records of high It is interesting that Neville (Properties of Concrete - Chapter 7) indicates that "The loss of strength at 28 days seems of water which occurred during the first 3 days; the temperature (20 or 40 deg C (68 or 104 deg F) has no effect." (Re effects of early overloading and insufficient curing on the properties of concrete after complete hardning, in Proceeding Concret of Early Ages, Vol.II pp 117-26, (Anciens ENPC, Paris, 1982). Neville has a relationshipo of loss of strength vs ranging from 100% at 0 loss to 25% at 5% loss - and the storage at 20 or 40 degC both straddle the trend line. - so th water loss was there in the initial curing time? Just a thought

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msucog (Civil/Environmental)

i did check across our jobs to see about the mix design. we have one other job going on right now with the footing mix tech and he said the contractor hasn't provided a box so the cylinders are just set on the slab in the blazing sun (they whenever possible). their breaks look "typical" with 7 day's being 65-75% and 28 days being 4000-4500psi. as far as o specimens are in plastic cylinder molds and covered with plastic bags and sealed with rubber band. the box was more and had insulation inside. our guy did place another piece of insulation on top of the box so that the top and sides wou going through the box). we did look at the statistical data across the different mixes for the job. it looks like the mix is consistent (whether it's but i have not seen anything jump out that would suggest it wouldn't work). the tests results also look consistent. both again, the box that the contractor is now using was just being used 100 yards away on an adjacent job by another con concrete total was about 4x as much with different supplier and had 3 or 4 low breaks total (only had to core two of th the one thing i'm not sure about is what admixtures are being used. maybe once i see the batch tickets i'll see someth just narrow it down to initial curing but my gut feeling says that's not it. i've seen cylinders initially stored under brutal changes in the breaks, but there again, i have no other explanation for this scenario. one thing that we should be seein would be that the strengths would be taking off fast at first. there coming in 50-65% at 7 days. let's say the box is get expect the cement to take off and the strength sky rocket for the 7 day break and then flatten off for the 28 day. also is having no problems with less than optimal initial curing, i'm left with two suspects as far as i can tell: the contractor' (or batch plant errors). some of the low breaks are showing placement times of right at an hour and temps in mid 80's entire culprit (maybe partial). since the batch plant did send out the wrong mix and inside sources tell me that particul my gut tells me that's going to be the source of the problem but we'll see what the data shows. i would much rather it box since we work all over with that supplier (i probably shouldn't really care since they throw us under the bus every not throw gas on the fire). as far as the moisture loss after initial curing, that should be easy enough to measure. with the new storage trough, w comparison between the moisture loss from the two different storage methods. bigh, any thoughts on how much mois in plastic molds and sealed with plastic bags (assume the box hits say 120 with no air flow)?
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DarthSoilsGuy (Geotechnical) just throwing out a couple more things on your aug 18 post. you may already know this now, but if not it's worth knowing or could help other people who use this post.

there are some references to some of the mixes having slag. Blast furnace slag and fly ash are pozzolans <sp> that h concrete hydration byproducts for increased strength (along with some other benefits). since it is a secondary reaction development time can exceed and usually exceeds the 28-day standard test cycle because it doesn't kick in until those still have to test and meet code/spec at 28-days when you use pozzolans in a mix.) But, IF there are pozzolans in the post, there is an argument that the 70+ day field core tests would indicate that your 28-day breaks are more accurate having problems batching.

also, for all you testers out there that haven't read the ACI 301 Structural Concrete - Duties & Responsibilities of the C good items in there. the contractor is responsible to: 1.6.3.2.b "Furnish any necessary labor to assist Owner's testing agency in obtaining and handling samples at the project site or

What that means.... We're going to have to work out some other way than having our tech going up and down stairs w

and yes it's your problem.

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msucog (Civil/Environmental)

well, i think i've broken one of the riddles on the job. that majical 5200psi cylinder the supplier made was likely miscalc the 5200 number so we looked at it for 30 minutes and finally it clicked. we happened to back calculate the strength b typically use. they usually use 4x8 molds but they used 6x12 on this date to match ours. they put the break load in the over the area. 5200 drops down to ~2200 or so (right in line with ours). there were two sets made and both fall within haven't seen the new results sent out to the team to clear up the issue. the supplier and contractor basically tried to p architect, engineer, and owner yesterday and now they're sandbagging clearing up their main arguement. i suppose w tomorrow if they don't own up to it. we knew something was wacky since the highest 28 day break was only 5500 so t fly ash not allowed on these jobs. we're going to make 4 extra cylinders on next pour. 2 will go in the box that's been slab in the sun. the regular 4 will go in the tub. we should be able to make a reasonable assessment of the results bas compared to the regular set. i'm willing to bet it's negligible. it's starting to point awful hard at the supplier or mix.
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boffintech (Civil/Environmental) KILL THE BOX.

ASTM C-31 does NOT require a box. What is required is a environment between 60-80F <6Ksi and 68-78F >=6ksi wit ASTM C-31 "The storage temperature shall be controlled by use of heating and cooling devices, as necessary." Wooden boxes sitting in the sun are like ovens! If they thought 24 hours of heat was detrimental to strength gain why not try leaving the cylinders at the job-site for allows for Initial Curing.
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msucog (Civil/Environmental)

I agree that the box is more suited for cold weather storage. The only reason it was brought over is because the contr the reason for the initial low breaks was because we (the testing firm) had not provided a box. I kept telling these clow Finally, the owner (in an attempt to help) got the contractor on the same site (but different job) to bring over the box temperatures got up to 120, but I have never seen a big strength loss due to temperature. Our samples are protected box had layers of shading (due to our tech's trying to keep it from being an oven). Either way, I didn't build the box an use a box. I just about fell out laughing in the meeting when the contractor said "well why didn't the testing firm tell u thing is baking the cylinders." everyone had an odd look on their face and was thinking, it is your box so go fix it. i'm 99% sure the supplier screwed up their calculations and so the results will be less than 100psi off of our results. the only other deviation from the mix i see is that there's no #89 stone. instead, they bumped up the #57 stone. i'm n think that would be killing the strengths. anyone else have an opinion?
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msucog (Civil/Environmental)

well, i think this is going to turn out ugly. the supplier says that the results are good. 300lb cement going to get 5000+ samples that were baking get higher faster? it's a 3500psi mix! i guess the supplier wants to be generous and give awa normal mix. highest 28 day break was 4500 with the average around 3800 for slab and 3200 for footings. highest 7 da or less. i guess we will go to plan b since we're not getting any help to find the problem...
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BigH (Geotechnical)

msucog - perhaps consideration and evolution from an adversarial point of veiw to one of permitting someone to "save You are correct; they are wrong and off base - is there not a way to turn this out so they don't lose face? Think like I am NOT saying to back down - but there are two paths you can take - the Nolan Ryan fast ball - down your throat that slips and slides - gets to the catcher all the same but follows a different path. The batter can always then feel exo "goop" (or in the case of Hoyt Wilhelm, the knuckler). Ryan gives him no such option. A thought.
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msucog (Civil/Environmental)

i don't intend to call the man a liar on the record. results are what they are. but in this case, it's very plain to see what the supplier works for the contractor, so the contractor is probably directing him to keep his mouth shut. the best rout break the 28-day cylinders and report them as they really are (which should be around 3500psi if they break like the re able to say, "yep, the first break sure did look odd and it appears that it was weird". that way, we don't have to call th them in front of the entire team (and county). we'll do our correlations between the storage box, open air and water bath initial cure with all of our own samples. i am results will be. hopefully, since the supplier is a very large one and reputable, i'm hoping they will take the high road a results or bring out real 28-day breaks. it's going to be hard for them since they (along with the contractor) essentially and our company in the meeting with the county. we'll see if they get a new attitude and work to change and correct t question mark in the back of a few people's minds about my company/personnel because of these clowns and i don't i them the opportunity to do the professional thing and save face at the same time...but the clock is ticking. (and i'm sure nolan has intentially beaned a few players in his day too--gotta be careful since they might charge and b a good offense")
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dirtsqueezer (Geotechnical) Do you live in Las Vegas? I heard there's still mob activity out there.

This situation would drive me absolutely up a wall. I'm impressed that you're dealing with it so well. Where did the su initially? If they came up with 5000+ @ 7 days, which is ludicrous given the difference with your results, and the core them how they did it, do it the exact same way. If you don't get that 5000+, you can just ask them why the heck not. testing agency. They're not on record for this, you are. It's your responsibility to get the right results. Though I'd say best to arm yourself with a hi-lo thermometer and record on your break sheet. Then there's nothing they can say abo Sounds like you're dealing with a crime ring or something. I'd say you're going way overbudget on your patience and long way for the next time you deal with the same contractor/supplier.

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msucog (Civil/Environmental)

they cured their specimens under a lean-to style tent made of a sheet of plywood leaning over against a pallet of brick just like we were doing at first until they supplied a box). we're going to put a hi-lo thermometer in the water bath. we one outside the box with the extra cylinders we're making next time. i wouldn't normally go through all the trouble but damage our image with the county. we do quite a bit of testing for this county, so i'm doing my best to make sure the i'm certain everyone is on our side--besides, the owner said in the last meeting "well this is my testing firm and their re on this project".

we had to core more footings last week and while we were on site, the supplier came out and ran a windsor probe (isn mentioned that they ran some on the previous sections back during the meeting. we and the engineer told them that w if you've correlated the results back to core breaks. so i suppose they're planning on using our core breaks as the corre a set of 3 shots at one location and left. we suggested that they run multiple trials at all 4 places that were being cored from different days). they declined and left. the core ended up having about 2 inches of grout on top of the footing. no his windsor probe results were 3500-4000psi (grout has been breaking at 4500 at 28 days). the supplier and contractor are bracing themselves for a lawsuit in case they're told to rip out the concrete or to give a since the client didn't get what he paid for. as far as being over budget, the only good aspect about this whole deal is that the client does not set budgets with us that we're out there protecting their butts and trying to see that they get a good product. a few thousand dollars to us that. during the grading on this project, i already saved them well over 20,000+ cy of pay rock due the contractor and say they owe me one.
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DarthSoilsGuy (Geotechnical) 20,000+ cy! i would say they owe you one...... point five million. contractor/surveyor error my ass. i don't get it. supposedly blasters work within the project specifications on every construction job they go to, but then need to be taught it to them again and again. Multiple choice test for these bozos: A) They're corrupt as hell and shouldn't be working! B) They're idiots and shouldn't be able to purchase explosives! C) Both A & B Pick.
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msucog (Civil/Environmental)

it's funny how when you're dealing with big areas that have deep cuts and mass rock that elevations suddenly get forg mention, the contractor "forgot" that 20+ feet of cut had already taken place to get to the top of rock. they came up w we went round and round for two weeks. i kept telling them to send me their calculations so that i could see where the down at a meeting to look over the calulations with the head county guy and the architects (this is same job as mentio

contractor). i show up with pencil and paper and they plop a computer out on their mahogony table that pulls up a 3D of what the cut area looks like and then he says "there you go". (just how the hell are you supposed to come to a reso model of what the rock looks like? they said "well the program says 45,000cy"). i lucked up and finally recognized that holes were from a ground surface that looked something like original grade and i finally got them to say it was. so they the ground surface elevations at the time of test drilling.

i've said it before and i'll say it again...from my previous experience as a contractor (and surveyor), never trust contrac yourself that they're correct.
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civilperson (Structural)

How do you maintain the required cure temperature without a insulated box? Box is not specified , but the temperatu any weather.
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msucog (Civil/Environmental) water bath with ice...air conditioner i suppose would work.

here's an update: our 28-day breaks came in right in line with the rest of the breaks (400psi lower - 200 psi higher tha supplier's breaks came in (drumroll please).....300 psi lower to 200 psi higher than the 28-day design strength (so the between the 7 day and 28 day breaks)...WHOOPS!

so it looks like regardless of the curing temperatures (within 20-40 degrees fahrenheit from that 80 degree mark), it's again, we use plastic molds with plastic bags to hold in moisture so it might be different if the moisture was able to rea the contractor is on the hook for initial curing and storage. it is appearing to me that the problem is potentially within t were cast less than an hour after batching. maybe the cement is not up to par...i really don't know and to be complete friday before holiday weekend after i received the news above about the breaks out today. have a great holiday weekend!
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BigH (Geotechnical)

msucog - looks like my post by Neville was right on - so long you don't have moisture loss - which you did with the pla
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msucog (Civil/Environmental)

sure does. we're still waiting for the last pour which i'll still have extra cylinders made simply for data points now that t debunked. i'll post the actual numbers next week. between the box (which reached 120+) and the shady area which w difference is negligible. we'll see what the difference will be between ice bath, ambient air temp, and insulated box sitt max temp.

p.s. i'm still trying to take the high road and not gloat too much since the supplier actually broke the real samples. they the results happen instead of pulling other specimens to keep from hurting their image.

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msucog (Civil/Environmental) from another thread but trying to keep it on this one....

concretemasonry (Structural) 3 Sep 07 14:45 Technically, when the materials are weighed and mixed, they are "batched". The gray area occurs when the concrete i from a "central-mix" plant where water is initially added according to the mixing slump.

In reality, it is not that simple. Coarse aggregate usually contains only absorbed moisture (1/2% by weight). Fine aggr significant amount of moisture - up to 7% by weight (mostly available surface moisture) depending on the exposure hi can contain a significant amount of moisture (bottom of the bins/storage piles) that will reduce the mixing water that m central-mix plant or by a driver/contractor in the case of a loosely controlled transit-mix operation. - This can obviously of cement hydration.

One other very important factor is the age and temperature of the cement. During certain times of the year (late seaso conditions) a concrete supplier may receive "hot cement" that is from a very fresh cement clinker ot is freshly ground f condition, the cement is much more reactive and will set quicker. Typical cement mill reports are averages (chemistry, produced and will not accurately reflect the properties of the cement when batched.

The temperature of the cement at the time of placement, while effected by the aggregate temperature, can be an indi cement hydration if you have some history of testing. Thank concretemasonry for this valuable post! ------------msucog (Civil/Environme) 3 Sep 07 15:15 good points concretemasonry...

is there any good way to identify hot cement from outside the batch plant? (i'm guessing no--this leads back to my oth pondering why the breaks are coming up low and not gaining a lot of strength after the 7 day breaks and virtually zero not anticipate a lot of help from the supplier) -----------concretemasonry (Structural) 3 Sep 07 17:32 msucog -

The variation caused by hot cement is probably less than the problems you seem to encounter on your posts regarding Fortunately, the long term concrete curing process provides a "cushion", but not an absolute "cure".

There are clearly defined standards for cylinder preparation, curing and handling. Variation from these standards rende Unfortunately, hot cement coincides with hot weather and the problems maintaining proper conditions for the cylinders conditions. Comfining cylinders in a hot box is the same as using hot cement and the results cannot be documented in testing guidelines must be established before the actual start of construction and must be rigorously enforced early to

Hot cement is a minor "blip" in the process that presents some unusual problems for an engineer to fully understand. W dark ages, our concrete lab instructor turned his back on the pranks involving mix constituants (sugar, flyash, accellera missing rodding), sample handling (impact) and testing procedures (unlevel capping, off-center testing machine alignm In the end, the class had to come up with an anaylysis of the causes that turned out to be more beneficial than the "pu

happen in a lab or controlled site.

As I mentioned in my previous post, you need a reliable historical base to operate off of before you try to trouble-shoo Dick Thank concretemasonry for this valuable post! ------

msucog (Civil/Environme) 3 Sep 07 19:24 as mentioned in my thread, the testing looks solid. even the supplier's test results are right there with our (probably no based on the companion testing--even with the different initial curing). our technicians are the best around and we ho should/shouldn't be doing (i've even got the onsite fulltime tech watching and helping the techs doing the concrete tes contractor more but even some of the trucks that got placed in less than an hour had low breaks. overall, the breaks s marginally passing or low). statistically, everything is consistent so i'm 90% certain it's something in the mix. i would n source since we're so far from a cement source and since this job has been seeing low breaks for many months now b simply running out of things to look at as being the problem. i'll post this on the other thread to keep from overrunning
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Rjeffery (Civil/Environmental)

Usually, when I write my proposals, I state that I exclude on-site initial curing facilities, siteing the contract documents contractor is unable to provide the proper initial cure facilities that I will supply a forney LA-1302 Curing Box which has additional $500 per week per box, that it is (they are) in use on site to protect the owners test specimens... (~8 week
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msucog (Civil/Environmental)

hey, that's good. i'll keep that in mind. have you run in to any problems with "being responsible" for the specimens wh the box (or do you clarify that too)? that would be my concern that i somehow get sucked in to being expected to stan
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Rjeffery (Civil/Environmental)

I try to come at the project personnel (owners and general contractor/owner's rep) with the attitude that I am an extra and contract documents it is stated very clearly that the GC or Owners Rep is to provide us (the Independent Testing a assistance and access required to perform our contracted duties. A statement such as: By ITIA supplying X, Y or Z do responsibility of protection of X, Y or Z per the contract documents. Is usually good enough on the addendum to the c contractors go bad
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msucog (Civil/Environmental)

well, supplier and contractor still have not provided the results for their "not so magical" cylinders' 28-day breaks. i talk the other day and they are still waiting too...i believe their patience is wearing thin. it's just making the supplier and co eyes as well as the county's eyes. i'm haven't been stoking the fire since the contractor/supplier seem to be doing a fin funny though: the bullying and finger pointing by the contractor has been all quiet since those magic cylinders broke lo

we had another pour where we made extra cylinders. cured the project cylinders in the new water bath provided by th box, and one set field cured. the field cured were the highest, box second and water bath lowest...again, probably tied the strength gain. i expect the 28-day breaks to possibly be slightly flip-flopped...i don't think the water bath will be mu days but maybe just slightly. the field cured were 700-900 psi higher than the water bath. the water bath came in at 6 see what the 28-day breaks come out at.

i took a look at a low break cylinder the other day and it had aggregate that you could break apart with your hands...w with the low break...
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BigH (Geotechnical)

msucog - interesting on the aggregate. Does the concrete supplier do QC on the quality of the aggregate? Do you/ca "right" time, you should suggest to the owner/architect that you do a sampling of the aggregate prior to the next pour Abrasion/Micro Deval/Aggregate Impact test for durability - also absorption, etc. as well. Mmmmm
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msucog (Civil/Environmental)

since the supplier is a very large one (probably one of if not the largest), so i suspect they do quite a bit of QC...perhap though. the owner doesn't want to go on a witch hunt since all the breaks are just marginally low and the cores have b just marginally ok. this was the only cylinder so far that we saw the aggregate like this on but then again, it was one o because something didn't look right. i suspect that as long as the cores come up okay, the issue will be "resolved" in th this is not a huge building and the concrete is only the footings and slab on grade, i'm not going to pursue the issue un however, i am going to make sure my firm's name is cleared on paper from the finger pointing that occurred earlier. i'm end of new projects now to make sure the contractor/supplier do not even have this hand to play about initial curing b large, rather critical projects coming up with this same supplier. i suspect that our material expert might be making a c above the heads of those we've been dealing with over at the supplier. apparently, there are lots of old friendships tha the company and i'm sure they'd be interested to hear about how all this was handled by their people.

consequently, i just realized yesterday that this is not the first project of mine that this supplier has tried this on when pretty much dumped us as the testing firm over it (maybe because i was not as aggressive on that project--we tried to political" card).
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boffintech (Civil/Environmental)

What's the EOR position on this issue of initial curing? Clearly ASTM requires initial curing of the cylinders at the job and clearly ACI301 requires that the contract perform tha Also, if I'm the Owner and I understand the above two facts, then I also understand that I've paid the contractor to ta

so if it's not being done and there is all this headache because of it WHEERE IS MY MONEY GOING?
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msucog (Civil/Environmental)

they all only want the numbers to work out...per the contract documents, coring is required if the cylinders break low. okay. and the owner's money is not the owner's money...it is the county's money so there's not the personal connectio they're paying my paycheck so i'll let it go as long as there's not gross negligence and since they ultimately are the one

p.s. pay attention to the breaks i mention about the last strength breaks between water bath cured, field cured, and st water bath had the lowest 7-day breaks...it might be the highest 28 day break...we will have to wait and see. i'm willin higher (if even that much).

if it were my money, i'd be bucking for a cash credit...the county just wants the school open since there's so many sch overcrowded.
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boffintech (Civil/Environmental) Is this a design-build project where the engineer works for the same company as the contractor?
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msucog (Civil/Environmental)

nope. engineer actually works for the architect. the architect and engineer are good to work with from my previous job little too lax on some things (i guess for the sake of being political and keeping the job moving). but all in all, they're g breaks are marginally low, no one is afraid the building is going to fall. it does look like the supplier fixed something or bumped up the cement on this last pour since these were the highest
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