Professional Documents
Culture Documents
EASTERN DIVISION
Videotaped deposition of Esar Gordon Margolin, M.D., a witness herein, called by the Defendants for Cross Examination pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, taken before Jennifer K. Starner, RPR and Notary Public in and for the State of Ohio, at the offices of Robbins, Kelly, Patterson
&
Street, Federated Building, Suite 1400, Cincinnati, Ohio, on Wednesday, April 18, 2007, commencing at 1:58 p.m.
- - -
Page 2
1 APPEARANCES :
2 On b e h a l f o f t h e P l a i n t i f f :
N. J e f f r e y Blankenship, Esquire Monohan & B l a n k e n s h i p 7711 Ewing B o u l e v a r d S u i t e 100 F l o r e n c e , Kentucky 41002 ( 8 5 9 ) 283-1140
7
8
9
10
Randy J . B l a n k e n s h i p , E s q u i r e Robbins, K e l l y , P a t t e r s o n & Tucker The F e d e r a t e d B u i l d i n g S u i t e 1400 Seven West S e v e n t h S t r e e t C i n c i n n a t i , O h i o 45202 ( 5 1 3 ) 721-3330
11 On b e h a l f o f t h e D e f e n d a n t s : Kenneth A. Z i r m , E s q u i r e Walter & H a v e r f i e l d , LLP The Tower a t E r i e v i e w 1301 E a s t N i n t h S t r e e t S u i t e 3500 C l e v e l a n d , O h i o 44114-1821 ( 2 1 6 ) 781-1212
..
,
n n r ~ r n ~ 118 nt
Fil~d n7In717flflR
4 MARGOLIN, M . D . ,
- - -
d 07/O7/7OO8
Pane 4 nf 96
. 1 2 WITNESS:
3 ESAR GORDON MARGOLIN, M.D.
I N D E X
Page 4
CROSS
RECROSS
8 9 Defendants
10 11
E X H I B I T S
Marked
68 69
Page 5
VI DEOGRAPHER :
The
CROSS-EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. ZIRM:
8 9 Ken Zirm.
My name is
11 Patrick.
13 14
Q
A
15
I have.
So you're generally familiar with it.
18 contact with Mr. Francis and your experience 19 with Dr. Patrick.
--
experiences
Okay.
Thank you.
24 that the court reporter can hear what you're saying. And
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1 I'll try not to speak over you if you try not to speak over
2 me so it's easier for her to know what we're both saying. 3 Okay?
I
1
It's E-S-A-R.
Okay.
10 address?
At the University of Nebraska. And then where did you attend medical
16 school?
17
l9
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2 residency program? 3 4
5
Q
A
6 Mount Sinai Hospital in New York City and at the Peter Bent
9 Sinai?
10
11 two years of Peter Bent and then back to Mount Sinai for a
12 second year.
13 14 that?
15
17
18 residency? 19
20 Korean War.
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2 role:
Q
A
middle of '55.
How long did you hold those dual roles? Well, it's sort of -- sort of
--
in 1959
And so I still held 10 internal medicine at Jewish ~ o s ~ i t a l . 11 some of those roles and part after that. But mainly my role
I stayed in that
13 job for 27 years until 1986 I guess it was. I'm not quick with math either. held that position for years? Okay.
That is correct. And then what did you do? Then I've mostly done geriatrics at the 19 University and at the VA and continue to practice in those
20 venues to date mostly in education, teaching, some patient
21 care.
Okay. Never. Okay. No plans to retire?
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I'm going
And in particular to
6 the extent we can, we'll focus on the years in the mid '70s,
7 particularly when Dr. Patrick was there at the same time.
8 9
Oh, okay.
General question.
As director of
10 internal medicine, what was your involvement and 11 responsibility for the internal medicine residency program 12 there? 13
And
I forget
I I1
18 And so'I was responsible for appointing and kind of 19 overseeing the house staff in all the areas except perhaps
20 in surgery.
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Page 10
I1
1
And was that true at the time you 7 arrived at Jewish Hospital? Yes. Both programs were in place? Yes, they were. And both were accredited at the time? Yes. Tell me about that process. Did you
I I1
Oh, yes.
-- I
17 don't remember how many years apart they were, but we had
18 regular accreditation surveys for each of the programs and 19 they were always
20 as I can recall.
Okay. Yes.
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Okay.
Yes.
Separate for the internal medicine
5
6 program?
Yes.
8 accreditation in surgery.
9 the other.
10
-- I
14 can't remember when it changed to about three years total 15 which sort of dropped the word internship and sort of made
Q
A
I don't
Okay.
22 standard change?
Yes. Yes.
1 decided to do?
Page 12
2
3
It may
Q
A
8
9
11 Jewish?
12
--
I remember Dr. Ed
There may
16 have been several changes during that period of time until 17 Dr. Heimlich, Henry Heimlich came on the scene.
I think he
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I had a passing contact with him when I
I I
I1
I
4 people in common.
5 his selection.
Okay. Did you have
--
10 close.
Okay.
Okay.
20 21
Q
A
If you recall.
Well, I know how I did it in medicine. I'm a blank slate. I'm trying to learn
22
23
24 all I can.
Page 1 4
This i s
tiom.
chool,
fin^,
We wou.1-d g.et
L e t I s s t a r t ouk
s t u d ~ n t s~ppiy.
Uh-huh
d I can't remember when we started the of t h e match program, but mostly thy were
medical school.
--
Rap it a matching
--
was it
-- wg-8
there
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Page 15
1 it was sort of a scramble program.
2 and you hoped you heard from the hospital that prefer
--
Oh, yes.
16
17
Q
A
18 governing bodies.
19 national bodies.
20 me how many.
21
22
I don't remember.
For each how many slots -Yeah. Did it change over the years? Yeah, there were some slight changes.
Q
A
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Page 16
1 There were modifications.
2 Some of the residents would come for only one year and stay
3 one year and that was okay.
-- other
--
8 specialties so that they need a year of medicine before 9 of internship before they went on.
10 of the system.
11
13
Oh, yes.
Oh, yes.
Whether they're
18
19
Yeah.
Q
A
20
Okay.
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Page 17
1
Okay.
4
II
What
Was it a close
18 close.
I was there full time. And that would be true of the first-year
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Page 18
1 recall during the years was there someone that held the
2 position of, say, graduate medical education administrator
9 they weren't -- I don't think they were responsible for -10 for running the program or selecting the residents.
11 12
13
Okay.
15
16
Oh, on paper essentially. Okay. Not otherwise. And there was -Well, there was one director we had when
Q
A
20 I first came who always made it a point to always meet all 21 the residents. Made little notes on their charts that he
23 handled them, but he wasn't involved with their education 24 program at all.
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1 2
Q
A
Okay.
He
--
I know that.
Did your
--
--
--
--
Q
A
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Well, head of surgery, whoever it was. 4 Haven't the slightest recollection of that. We're
5 different
--
23 subsequently that this was what they called the HARP group,
24 Heimlich and P was Patrick.
I remember that.
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Page 21
1 2
Right. And Dr. Rivershell. Neil Armstrong? Armstrong. That's right. And they were
6 meetings.
-- ultimately knew
8 that Dr. Patrick met him at that time, that he was one of
9 the participants.
12 whatever that setup was with Heimlich, that's how I know he 13 appeared at the hospital. 14 15
Q
A
Okay. To the best of my recollection. Okay. Do you recall -- did there come a
Yes.
Yes.
Uh-huh.
--
computer recognition,
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1 pattern recognition of disease to see if he could further 2 further his computer interest.
--
Okay.
4 that or did you have to provide approval for that or how did
5 you get
--
9 what that meant or how we would do it with a lot of 10 mathematics, which I still to this day don't understand, but 11 nonetheless were the -- appropriate for a man of 12 Dr. Patrick's level and training.
Well, the other one I think of is Dr. 16 Sanghvi who at that time was chief of cardiology serving
17 under me and was running that coronary -- cardiac monitoring 18 unit.
Vijay Sanghvi.
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Page 23
1 is actually in this book.
Okay.
If you can
Yes.
8 weekend.
9
10 11
--
12 newsletter?
13
14
--
appears to be some
18
19
Yes. Okay.
Yes, we did.
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--
Yes.
l3
I.
He was the boss? Well, he was the -- he was our boss. Okay. Under the board of trustees obviously. Okay. Was it your understanding when
Okay.
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I didn't
--
Okay.
Okay.
--
or you knew
--
you came to
--
14 got together, whether Dr. Heimlich asked me to see him or we 15 just got together because of his interest in medicine or
16 whatever, but we got to know each other during that period 17 of time.
18
Okay.
19 consistent that his first position with Jewish Hospital was 20 this position discussed in this newsletter?
21
22
23 exhibit, 56. 24
A
---.....r-W...IW..-
".,.
.,.,-..
, . ' ' . * h W -
,'
-----+..-
a " -
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7 was written?
No.
Okay.
I -- I do not
20 Mr. Carney as one of the administrators and he had my -21 and a lot of other people reported to him, but my role was 22 through him.
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--
I think
Okay.
I'm sorry.
19 Hospital?
Correct. And the date on the second page is 22 August 22, 1975? Correct. The
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.
Page 28
1 page at the top it asks in the first blank line, "Specify 2 type and specialty, flexible, categorical," and then in
12 approving bodies.
13
14
Q
A
And thatts what I was going to ask. Those were acceptable. The flexible residency program was also
15
16 an accredited program?
17
18
19 process -20
Yeah.
21
Q
A
22
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Page 29
1 that
2 that's my --
7
8
9
It is. Can you read that for us? Yes. Okay for flexible program, that is
Q
A
10 four months of medicine, fourth months of surgery, 11 anesthesia, emergency room, that's ER, x-ray, starting
Okay.
--
would
15
Everyone had my
---
everyone had my
--
Q
A
19 categorical surgical. 20
I understand.
21 medical --
Absolutely.
--
was
--
Absolutely.
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Okay.
But
--
but we
--
have babies
13 and come later or be sick and have to drop out and change
14 dates.
This would be
--
not be an unusual
Oh, absolutely.
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Page 31
1 made to fill all your slots with the July 1 folks?
7
8
9 10 comment.
Q
A
--
may I make a
Q
A
Okay.
17 having seen it at all, but it should have been somewhere 18 attached or in the same file. 19 or not.
20
Okay.
And you
--
24 correct.
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Page 32 Okay. In this case I just don't know. Sure. And I wouldn't expect you to
4 remember a specific case --
I do not remember.
But for
Yes.
12 their grades.
17
I know that
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Page 33 Okay.
2 A
-- was
4 his advocate.
5
6
I'm positive he
12
13 14
Q
A
So this -I'm still the responsible person. Sure. So this application didn't arrive
21 your handwriting, is
22 residency was?
23
A
No.
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Page 34
I1
--
in the
--
9 them.
I guess what I'm getting at were there 1 15 some core Qrequirements for every flexible program?
Oh, yeah. They had to have so much
--
I
I I
18 surgery, as I recall. Okay. And I don't remember about the rest. And, again, that would have been a
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Page 35
1
Okay.
Okay.
Q
A
9
10
13
14
Yes. "After consultation with the executive What was -- who was on the
20
21
Q
A
22 hospital.
52
Okay.
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-- sheets of paper.
Okay.
Yeah.
23 So apparently --
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Generally was
And the hours of duty, is that standard? Yes. 7 that everybody signed. Everything in here was the same
It wasn't --
--
We used -- we used
With carbon copies. That's right. No. 10, Type of residency 16 the first page. Oh, I'm sorry. Item 10 there, you see Flexible l? Yes. Did that indicate to you that was going
21 to be a one-year program?
-- still on
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--
as a full
Uh-huh.
--
any
-- I don't
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So do you
5 listed here?
Okay.
17 in this instance?
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Page 40
1 appears to be a supplement, a rough draft?
--
Q
A
--
my
13 documentation.
Q
A
21
22
Q
A
I can recall on
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Page 41
1 anybody else and it is -- it is well delineated in here that
I I I I
As
1 I
And
--
Right.
That ' s right. And was that the basis of your concern? Absolutely. And that was -- it said he
23 would fulfill those outside the required hospital duties in
24 his internship.
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So that would
--
I was trying to -- 1
--
his
21 aware of it.
There's no
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Right.
2 to obtained a signed copy.
Right.
In fact, I
--
15 is
--
I see that.
Was that something you wanted to have in
20 this supplement?
Oh, absolutely. And why is that? Well, because -- because Dr. Patrick
24 came to us under the auspices of Dr. Heimlich, he wanted
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8 requirements?
11 sure that all of his peers did not feel that he was carrying 12 his full load.
I don't
-- not
--
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I just remember
I do not recall.
I'm trying to figure out the best way to
It was
--
-13
not uncommon. Let's put it that way. And would you say that was true
Okay.
Yeah.
Q
A
Q
21
Sure?
--
--
--
we
24 program.
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Page 4 6
1
Q
A
Yes.
I have n o t s e e n t h a t h e r e , b u t I d o
3 remember t h a t I was n o t t h e o n e t h a t s i g n e d i t .
4 D r . Heimlich w a s asked t o s i g n t h a t a t t h e time.
Would you h a v e h a d m i s g i v i n g s a b o u t
6 s i g n i n g i t g i v e n what you h e a r d a b o u t D r . P a t r i c k ?
7
A
I had m i s g i v i n g s a n d r e q u i r e d -- a s k e d
T h a t was m y b i g g e s t r e c o l l e c t i o n o f t h i s whole
Okay.
A
12
O r d i n a r i l y I would have
--
I would have
13 been t h e o n e t o s i g n i t .
14
Q
A
Yes, i t i s . Okay.
15
16
-A
i n a few m i n u t e s .
17
Because h e w a s r e a l l y D r . H e i m l i c h ' s
18 p r o t e g e e p r o t e g e a n d I t h i n k t h a t ' s where i t b e l o n g e d . 19
20
Q
A
I understand.
But t h a t made i t o f f i c i a l a s f a r a s t h e
2 1 h o s p i t a l was c o n c e r n e d .
Correct.
I t was a n o f f i c i a l y e a r of t r a i n i n g .
Okay.
And a s f a r a s y o u ' r e c o n c e r n e d ,
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Page 47
1 Dr. Heimlich was vouching for that
--
Well, he signed --
-- as opposed to you?
He signed for it. Yes. Yeah.
I I
I I 1 I I
8 that were going to be with the program for more than a year
Okay.
No.
I cannot recall.
I
1
I do not recall.
24
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Q
A
Sure. Are they in the book? No. No. And in response to our
14
I I
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Page 49
--
In a file?
Q
A
I have no
11
--
No, I understand.
12 documents here. 13 14
15 Exhibit 65.
Yeah.
17
19
That is exactly the one. And that has Dr. Heimlich's signature? That is right.
20
21 22
Ordinarily I
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Okay.
Resident 1.
13 certificate.
Uh-huh.
I'm sorry.
No.
I don't
17 recall using that term, but that's obviously what we 18 accepted at the time.
22 secretarial and we would all sign them and hand them out at
23 the appropriate times to the finishing residents, sometimes
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Page 51
1 middle of the year would be just given to them.
2
3
Q
A
5 6
Q
A
Okay. But ordinarily this would have been This was an exception.
7 signed by me.
8
I see.
11
-- in his
14
15
Q
A
Okay. And I
--
Q
A
19
20 whatever that date was, if we were required to do it, but my 21 guess is that we did. 22
Q
A
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Page 52
--they
--
they wanted
I
(
3 wanted documentation.
12 13 have.
Okay.
What
--
Just on
--
-- contacted?
--
medicine essentially.
--
reading their
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Page 53
1 within medicine or subdepartments. 2
4 We had a
--
(
1
5 rheumatology/immunology.
6 that time.
They all sort of developed over time. Okay. And they sort of grew. That's the way
12 sometimes residents from the University would rotate through 13 Jewish Hospital?
14
15
There were
It never
-- it never worked
20 both ways.
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Page 54
1 identified or marked as Exhibit 68.
2 3
Yeah, I've seen this one too. Okay. And had you seen this until
Just recently with all this. Okay. And do you recognize what this
Q
A
16 indicating that Dr. Patrick is -- has completed his 17 residency and was eligible for state licensure. 18
Okay.
19 Dr. Patrick?
20
It
23 around this? 24 A
No, except when any of our residents
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Page 55 1 applied for state licensure they had to have documentation 2 that they had completed their program and that's what -3 that's what this was, a standard form
--
standard form.
Okay .
It indicates
--
you're signing
5 that he's been in the practice of medicine for the last one
6 and a half years? 7
8
I would
Q
A
In your view? Oh, yeah. Okay. And the one and a half years,
15 September 1, 1975, and this is November of 1976, do you 16 recall whether someone prepared this form for you or where 17 that figure one and a half years came from? 18 A No. That's probably a guess of my own He was involved a little bit with
19 or an estimate of my own.
--
before -- in that
21 computing thing he did before he became an intern or a 22 flexible intern. And so I don't know where I got the one
23 and a half, but that's -- he was certainly around the 24 hospital at that time.
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1
2
Q
A
That was -- I
7 don't believe
8 been.
9
10 at this time as best can you recall have to have any kind of 11 certificate from the Ohio State Medical Board, training or
1 2 temporary certificate?
13
To be
--
I don't think
1 7 because
--
Q
A
20
23 temporary licensure.
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Okay.
Q
A
9 of
16
I1
18 that's been provided to us from Dr. Patrick, one of his 19 resumes. And I just have a question for you about his Do you see that?
-- that's not --
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Page 58
1
2 certificate at all.
That's isn't consistent with our And I would not -- I would say he was
4
5
Q
A
Okay.
What about --
10
Okay.
Q
A
17
Okay.
19 case.
22
Yeah.
24
Yes.
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Page 5 9
1 Research in Emergency Medicine, Purdue University and
3 1974-1975.
4
5
Okay.
But the
13
14
Q
A
1 5 misdirected at all.
Okay.
18
19
Where does it say that? You see that? Oh, no, this is not part
No.
Q
A
20
--
that was
Okay.
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We had
--
4 what that -- where that came from or what that refers to.
--
14 I don't have a clear idea of what happened after the 15 residency, after the internship. I think -- I am not
16 sure
--
17 thing. 18
19
Q
A
Okay.
--
I1
24 late.
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Page 61
1
Okay.
2
3
I have no idea.
Okay. No idea. And we've not had'any contact
Q
A
Okay. That I can recall. If you could turn back a few exhibits in I'd
7
8
9 that book to Exhibit 45, another resume of Dr. Patrick. 10 like you to take a look at that.
All righty.
Have it.
Yeah, there you go. Okay. Resume of March 2002 at the top. Yes, I got it.
16 17
18
Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And, again, the description is post M.D. I'd ask you to take a look at it.
I
19 training. 20
--
Okay.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 118
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 62 of 96
Page 62 1 A My guess is that Dr. Patrick was around All I knew was the HARP thing
Q
A
Okay.
9 Hospital?
10 11 medicine.
12 surgery.
No, it was not designed for emergency It's clearly emphasis on surgery, general
13
14
Q
A
Okay.
15 the hospital.
I don't remember
--
16 about that. 17
Okay.
18 discussions with Dr. Heimlich about arranging a special 19 residency after that -20 A No.
-22
No.
Okay.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 118
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 63 of 96
In fact, I think emergency medicine may 2 have been just becoming a new specialty about that time and
3 there were few sites where training was approved, as I
4 recall:
I understand.
(Whereupon, Defendants' Exhibit 7 0 was
.
marked for identification purposes. ) I'm going to hand you another document
Okay.
-- I just absolutely
As
So
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 118
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 64 of 96
Page 64
1 deliberately decided not to include it.
I don't know.
This
I1
I
3 here.
4 it.
We were involved to the point of discussion of I was not involved with the actual development Dr. Sanghvi I
I
I
9 all this.
13 his fellow here, this Ramassamy man, but I personally don't 14 remember any hands-on involvement in this -- in any of these
15 programs.
I
1
18 because I did know about them, that the were going on.
-- you have no
20 present recollection.
No recollection. Okay.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 118
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 65 of 96
And I'm sorry about that. But you did not participate in the 5 pattern recognition research that Dr. Patrick -Not in the research.
Do you recall
--
15 presented?
No*
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 118
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 66 of 96
2 h e was g o i n g t o b e c a l l i n g you?
No,
n o t t h a t I remember.
7 a r t i c l e -- no, d i d n ' t c a l l i t t h a t .
I t was a
--
h e was a n
8 investigative reporter.
And he s a i d h e was d o i n g an
11 i n v e s t i g a t i o n t h a t i n v o l v e d D r .
P a t r i c k and I immediately
12 s a i d I have n o t h i n g t o s a y .
1 3 k e p t bugging me.
He d i d n ' t l e a v e me a l o n e .
He
--
I t h i n k -- I t h i n k t h e r e was more t h a n
17 one c a l l , b u t I'm n o t s u r e . 18 o u t
I t h i n k i n i t i a l l y it turned
--
I t h i n k h e c a l l e d me a s e c o n d t i m e --
-22 c a l l e d a g a i n .
t r y i n g t o -- t r y i n g t o g e t more -- I
21 t h i n k he s e n t m e s o m e i n f o r m a t i o n a n d t h e n -- and t h e n
But I -- I s a i d v e r y l i t t l e on t h e phone
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 118
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 67 of 96
Okay.
Well, that may be. The first four pages a long conversation
20 and the last page a short conversation.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 118
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 68 of 96
1 all of them.
He never -- he never told me that. I'm not sure this is one of them or not,
4 but at the very least these'are notes he was
--
-- contemporaneously taking?
Okay. So it's his word against mine.
--
11 minutes to give you a chance to review these so we can ask 12 you some questions.okay.
VIDEOGRAPHER:
I have.
Thank you.
Is there
--
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 118
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 69 of 96
Page 69
1 you were reading through it that struck you as something
6 7
Q
A
Okay.
17 Dr. Patrick. 18 19
Q
A
21 Heimlich. 22
23
24
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 118
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 70 of 96
Do you recall
--
Yes.
Yes.
7 article on there?
--
Is that your fax number? That's my fax number. Do you know whether Mr. Francis faxed
--
Okay.
22 on the first page about an affidavit bearing your signature 23 and it sounds like from his notes that you at the time 24 weren't sure what he was referring to?
Case 1.05-cv-02791-LW
Document I 18
Filed 0210712008
Page 71 of 96
Page 71
' T b a t v s corrmt.
Apparently
--
Maw
YO.~ think
I;,
Okay,
Okay.
25 is t h e a r t i c l e on Heimlich?
I
/
reme&
16 was it on
-CI
I don't know.
17
20 t h a t .
21
I don't
Maybe I
sea
I don't
24 any t a x designation
Case 1.05-cv-02791-LW
Document I 18
Filed 0210712008
Page 72 of 96
i
1,
Page 72
1~een !given. 2
3.
4 did
6-
P
A
'Okay.
5 written.
Tom F r a n c i s .
Had he written that befdre
Tam Francis.
He had written an a r t i c l e a b a ~ t
10 Dr. Heimlich.
11
Well, Maybe t h n t V , s
faxed to me.
-- 1 did
1 3
access to it.
Okay =
& Q
% don't
Okay,
Okay,
--
this
Yeah.
And
came
Case 1.05-cv-02791-LW
Document I 18
Filed 0210712008
Page 73 of 96
Page 73
d b ,not.
'dliay.
--
at least
5 &n't
7-
$1 \
9
Q
A
notes
'P
right.
HR. ZIRM:
Okay.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. BLANKENSHIP:
17
18 EEI
I lg in
" .
:
4
I I
ken h&@,
My bi.pt-r
2(i
a n ~ \ a p p p o ~ u n to i t y review the a r t i c l e w h i h
h i t h e su1,5e~k . QZ
Yes, I have.
XCts, e n t i t l e d "Playing ~ o c t o x * ?
Ye@.
Case 1.05-cv-02791-LW
Document I 18
Filed 0210712008
Page 74 of 96
Page 74
L@&q;= &qa
@3? @a$#A*@
qe &pg $@4
Mi?$!@
&
B *
m c ? ;
.
It says,
Q.
You
9 ipter.qblPnediciae depar'tment.
l o ' 11
15
IA
Q
A
Uh-huh.
you.
Yaw read it. &ay. First of af l, it 18 Q 19 says, r ~ f e r r i n gto you, first,, y ~ u ,Dr. Margolin, cla8inrthat
2 O Patrickjwas at Jewish
4
/ /
Okay,
--
Vh-
-Francis?
24
, p
- Pat.
Case 1.05-cv-02791-LW
Document I 18
Filed 0210712008
Page 75 of 96
!
Sge,
t- the docmmt,,
Page 75
He pas arbund a e h b s s t a l fm
&fee pears,
par:,
t h i n k if you read t h a t ,
Okay. A
h d I don't
-- I
Q
A
Okay.
I didn't
10 contradict myself.
So
--
--
Y e , Z absolutely do.
I
(
19 again,
I
Okay,
Hext page
&E
says,
'!Yeu d i d it
2.A s i g n a t u r e is
evdr
No,
s&y that
he wasn't a resident?
1 aekn6wledged the fact
24
'
1
No.
--
Case 1.05-cv-02791-LW
Document I A8
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 77 of 96
Page 77
.Q/
that
Qkay,
9 wasng8 +t hhat didzrTt coma tb n z d
as
--h yea?
-use
,=p~,
sp.
I Sj- @ p
him a yea+
several hundred'.
Tkfi ;new. ames a y e a ?
Case 1.05-ev-02791-LW
Document I 18
Filed 0210712008
Page 78 of 96
At 1-east.
A t Lgg&&$@
'..
W % P
I g@@ - - , in t h e n a t e s ,
.
bv.t
told
-- "Did Ds,
notes
-- you've
//
(
11 they a r e
-- on
That * s correct.
Now,
you said
didn'k sign t h e
?hat s r i g h t .
.
$@. Heimlich was mare
Was t h a t b
Yeah.
He
--
he arranged
->
aske8 for
was
--
the empbasi.
Case 1.05-cv-02791-LW
Document I 18
Filed 0210712008
Page 79 of 96
Page 79
for: it,
Okay.
3
1
5
6
No.
Hot f d T $ a r w%bh &ae
ESQ
B
I
k m ?
7
8
10 doctors?
No, I do not.
I t h i n k my n o t e s in hare
~ i r f athat
A
--
they're
--
24 my experience, in my lifetime.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 118
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 80 of 96
7 article, Page 2.
12 Jewish Hospital for 1.5 years, Margolin reverses course. 13 Suddenly he is certain Patrick was indeed a resident."
You
I can't read
--
he had a
But I never
Right.
21 putting them together? 22
23
24 of context?
Case 1.05-cv-02791-LW
Document I 18
Filed 0210712008
Page 81 of 96
-
.-
Exactly.
4: 2'; oS
5
6
7
ME. F r a n c i s
NB,
he was there.
A
I
you,
didn't you?
Okay.
--
jugt
34
I3
23
Wxth C,aroli.na.
i
30
Right.
The question
much?"
Q
A
that
a@, tf
it
Case 1.05-cv-02791-LW
Document I 18
Filed 0210712008
Page 82 of 96
Page 82
MR. ZXRM:
Objection.
T h a t t B okay,
MR, B-LANKENSRIF:
I'11
That's in his
--
okay.
6
J
8 &i
,ie
: I - . s~sidencyo
$d
1
:@ -
Okay.
Nowf as an i n t e r n in that f i r s t
r first year of
internship, w o u d
&urea
Yeahr W t 5
--
yes, I
W ~ S ~$k&,
Sum
Not X hgpe
idea.
rancis that Dr. Patrick did indeed do a 0ne-p,ar .W&'W*@$: @.g ~W&*"B .
,
this.
MR. XIRM:
@bT'ee@&~m,.
You caDTmayaer .
I &an answex
<
?
ie?
&
-x&#a i @ gm9wgg
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 118
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 83 of 96
Page 83
MR.
ZIRM:
Yes.
I said t h i s
3 w a s an a c c r e d i t e d r e s i d e n c y and h e d i d do t h a t a n d I knew
4 t h a t was true.
F r a n c i s t h a t D r . P a t r i c k was a t J e w i s h
7 a n a d d i t i o n a l p e r i o d o f t i m e p r i o r t o h i s r e s i d e n c y working
8 i n t h e computer d i a g n o s t i c s t u d i e s ?
A
Yes,
I do.
If you l o o k a g a i n a t t h e t h i r d p a g e o f
11 t h e a r t i c l e , t h i r d f u l l p a r a g r a p h down a n d I r e a d , "While i t
"
Did
Francis that?
NO,
15
I n e v e r s a i d t h a t e v e r i n my l i f e
1 6 t h a t I know a b o u t a n d i t d o e s n ' t r e f l e c t i n t h i s
--
in this So I
1 1 7 d o c u m e n t a t i o n t h a t w e h a v e h e r e from
1 8 d o n ' t know where h e g o t t h a t . 19
Mr.
Francis.
--
20 r e f e r r i n g t o your s i g n a t u r e
--
21 b o t h , " meaning D r . H e i m l i c h a n d D r . P a t r i c k .
No, n o t a t a l l .
That w a s
-- t h a t
was a
Case 1.05-cv-02791-LW
Document I 18
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 84 of 96
2 &gna
' I
Page 8 4
--
indicat3ng
at
Qh, ,ii&,
So you didnl t do it as a favar f o r
No,
PIOr
That was
--
that
Okay.
A r i d t h a t was
--
i-t was
-- it Was tt
the
&-dl!@,.;&@g vigature.
15
4. ~ h
A
19
Righe
Ahd
.%&I I
a Page 2 ef
24 graduat,
I&~B$.
that
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 118
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 85 of 96
See CV."
Yes.
6 attached CV.
7
Okay.
11
13 don't have any reason to believe it's not right, but that
--
Sure.
Case 1.05-cv-02791-LW
Document I 18
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 86 of 96
Page 86
3
'
+
I
we$@,
u&
i
I
T h e y were k e p t vexy
41+51y f
a& $&$
I
I
Z hew.
As far as
4 hod,
I
--
because we still
pita1 +$ing
& & I
s t ,
E can
1J
15
1.
quid
fgf confirmation of
I
I
@
A
Qkay
.
I
--
o
3,
- the
&&
: e & i %&.Ir b
.q$
3%
~~~ -$ I $ #a-t
.
- A
:C@@he!
r c q . I
, ,
- - = A %
rh@,ntv a ~ d SQ
@G
'I'
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
5
Document 118
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 87 of 96
--
I have my doubts.
--
how people
6 resident is gone.
8 doubt very much that a lot of the schedules are in those 9 files to the best of my recollection.
Back in -- I'm sorry. The yearly schedules, yeah. Okay. Back in the late '70s was there
13 some type of an affiliation between Jewish Hospital and the 14 UC Medical Center?
--
22 administration, but I didn't have anything to do with it. 23 Or orthopedics, we had some orthopedic residents rotating 24 through for a month or so, they'd get some experience at
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 118
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 88 of 96
Page 88
1 Jewish.
Okay.
--
9 and some of our staff men had positions and did some 10 teaching at the University teaching and teaching with us,
11 but of the full-time professorial staff at the University, I
Q
A
Okay.
Full time?
Well, that's another thing that changed When I first started, a lot of
17 and help do the teaching and make rounds, they'd run clinics
18 and so forth. Later on the University began hiring more and
--
Case 1.05-cv-02791-LW
Document 118
Filed 0210712008
Page 89 of 96
Page 8 9
1 Jkwisb
W$S
right
aCTOS5 the
I
I
9 means?
,
I
la 1well, but
I
i t real
let's say
--
f 3 anmore,
Tt
L,ocum
14 tenens a-re.filler inner dactors, many t i m w retired 20 ~ p H y s i c ~ a n that s w a t t~ waxk s h ~ s t periods tlaa and ;2arii
21 sme s i t r a mney after mey no Longer have t h e i r a m active
22 p A e t j a e g .
I
1
1
23
G2
--
if F t i s
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 118
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 90 of 96
I have no idea.
Okay. Is there anything else in the
6
7
8 attributed to you which you think is either false or taken 9 out of context?
10
11 that I said
hat
Okay.
18
I don't see it in there. Okay. I'm surprised I gave Mr. Francis as much
21 information as I did.
Case 1.05-ev-02791-LW
Document I 18
Filed 0210712008
Page 91 of 96
Y-eah
4
I I:
I
.
do you see about the third. I-fine
The
--
5 down it says,
If t h a t refera to
7
8 Let's
--
okay.
t
1
,ay he was
I
11
I "kin*
I
--
official
13 if?
" 1j
15
16 19
Yeah.
Q
A
MR. BLANKENSHIP:
have no f u r t h e r guestiona,
Okay.
Dr. Margalin, _. I
today.
RECROSS-EXAMINATIm
Case 1105-cv-02791-LW
Document I 18
Filed 0210712008
Page 92 of 96
Page 92
1
I
2 O X . ~4txick's certificate.
bb, okay.
A w t d m i b i t 68, which I:
believe 5s t-he
T h e m you ' g ~ .
Okay.
Now,
II
1
Yes, I d i d .
B u t you were w i l l i \ n g to sign the Nedical
16 Board A f f i d a v i t of Physicians?
Right
---
this aff-
--
tbka s e r t i f f ~ a t e of
21 Dr. Heimlich.
1 23 Hospital.
I-
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
9 , -
Document 118
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 93 of 96
1
Page 93
1 This other one having to do with Affidavit of Physicians for 2 the State of Ohio, that was just an affirmation that he had
5 signatures.
Didn't you also say earlier that one of
7 the reasons you were unwilling to sign the certificate was 8 because you had some misgivings about Dr. Patrick's
12 the program the way that others had completed the program?
13
A'
18 statement in the article that says you held Dr. Patrick and 19 Dr. Heimlich in low opinion, you had a low opinion for both 20 of them.
I have no idea.
--
obviously I didn't
23 say it in his 24
MR. ZIRM:
Okay.
Dr, Margolfn.
p.m.)
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 118
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 95 of 96
Page 95
I have read the foregoing transcript from page 1 through 94 and note the following corrections:
PAGE
/4
LINE 2
REQUESTED CHANGE
13
23
3 e7/
i-7
R v e v R L L 4 w
rn
g/
day
of
2007.
My commission expires
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 118
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 96 of 96
Page 96
1
2 STATE OF OHIO
: SS:
C E R T I F I C A T E
3 COUNTY OF HAMILTON
4
17 Notary Public; that I am neither relative, attorney, nor 18 employee of any party or their counsel and have no interest
1 9 in the result of this pending action. 20
I N WITNESS
22
2007.