Deposition by Former OH Medical Board Executive Director Thomas Dilling, Edward A. Patrick MD PHD v. Cleveland Scene Et Al (4/17/07)

Case I :05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 1 of 91
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT NORTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO EASTERN DIVISION
*
EDWARD PATRICK, Plaintiff,
VS.
CASE NO. 1:05 CV 2791
CLEVELAND SCENE PUBLISHING, LLC, et al., Defendants .
Deposition of THOMAS DILLING, Witness herein, called by the Plaintiff for cross-examination pursuant to the Rules of Civil Procedure, taken before me, Melissa A.
Neary, a Notary Public and Registered
Professional Reporter in and for the State of Ohio, at the offices of Ohio State Board of
Nursing, 17 South High Street, Suite 400,
Columbus, Ohio, on Tuesday, April 17,

1 : 0 6 p.m.
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 2 of 91
INDEX
PAGE
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 3 of 91
Page 3
1 APPEARANCES :
2
3
On behalf of the Plaintiff: Monohan

&
Blankenship
N. Jeffrey Blankenship Attorney at Law 7711 Ewing Boulevard, Suite 100 P.O. Box 1 5 7 Florence, Kentucky 41022-0157
and Robbins, Kelly, Patterson Randy J. Blankenship Attorney at Law 7 West Seventh Street Suite 1400 Cincinnati, Ohio On behalf of the Defendants: Walter
&
&
Tucker
Haverfield
Kenneth Zirm Attorney at Law The Tower at Erieview 1301 East Ninth Street, Suite 3500 Cleveland, Ohio 44114 On behalf of Thomas Dilling: Ohio Attorney General's Office Barbara J. Pfeiffer Attorney at Law 30 East Broad Street 26th Floor Columbus, Ohio 43215
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 4 of 91
Page 4 ; (Defendants1 Exhibit Numbers 57

2 through 63 were marked for identification.)
t
THOMAS DILLING
4 of lawful age, Witness herein, having been 5 first duly cautioned and sworn, as hereinafter
6 certified, was examined and said as follows:
CROSS-EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. N.J. BLANKENSHIP:
9
Would you please state your name,
10 sir? Sure. It's Thomas A., middle
12 initial, Dilling, D I L L I N G. And your counsel is Barbara Pfeiffer,
14 and she had something to put on the record.

MS. PFEIFFER:
16 Pfeiffer.
My name is Barbara
I'm an assistant attorney general
17 working for Attorney General Marc Dann.

18 today's deposition, I will be representing
19 Thomas Dilling in his capacity as the former

20 executive director of the State Medical Board
21 of Ohio.
22
Prior to the beginning of the
23 questioning, I thought it might be helpful just

24 for me to share a copy of a statute that I
25 think might be relevant to today's proceeding.
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 5 of 91
Page 5
1 I made a copy for each counsel.
I appreciate
2 having the opportunity to have read the amended
3 complaint in the matter.
What I wanted to indicate in the
6 the Medical Practices Act, 4731. (I?) (5) that
7 basically cloaks the Medical Board

8 investigations with confidentiality. 9 it read as follows:
In part,
Information received by
10 the Board pursuant to an investigation is
I
I1
1
11 confidential and not subject to discovery in

12 any civil action.
And the next sentence goes
13 on to state, the Board shall conduct all
14 investigations and proceedings in a matter that

15 protects the confidentiality of patients and
16 even persons who file complaints with the
17 Board.
I'm going to end the reading directly

19 from there.
I just throw that out there,

I'm not
20 gentlemen, so you are aware of that.
21 sure exactly where all the questioning will be
22 going.
I am going to, if I feel it's
23 necessary, object where appropriate and if Tom

24 needs to consult with me through the questions,
25 we will do so.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 6 of 91
Page 6
I appreciate you letting me have this

2 opportunity to speak, and now I am prepared to
3 sit back and listen. Mr. Dilling, you told us your name. 5 Would you please tell us your title?
6
A.
Currently it's adjudication
7 coordinator. For? State Board of Nursing. In October of 2004, were you in a
11 different position?
12
A.
Yes.
What was your position in October of
It was the executive director of the

16 State Medical Board.
17
Q.
And what were your job
18 responsibilities as the executive director of
19 the State Medical Board?

20
A.
Well, I oversaw a staff of, geez, 70
21 to 80 persons, Board license and disciplines,
22 doctors, massage therapists, and other kinds of

b
allied health providers.
We had about 50,000
24 licensees, and I'm responsible for that.
Okay.
*
m
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 7 of 91
Page 7
1
In short. Okay. So if a complaint came to you

C I
3 about a particular health care provider who was 4 under your licensure, it would be your job to
5 turn that over for investigation?
-4
1:
i
I
Yes, Would you tell us about your
;
+
1
I
8 educational background, please? 9 A. Well, do you want to go back to high
1 0 school?
11
High school is fine. A. Because we were just talking about I went to Cleveland
1
12
13 it.
I'm from Cleveland.
14 St. Ignatius High School.
I graduated in
II I
15 1984 -- I'm sorry -- 1980, and then I went to

16 St. Louis University from '80 to '84; graduated 17 with an honors A.B. in political science and a 18 political journalism certificate.
Then I went And
19 to Ohio State law school from '84 to ' 8 7 .
20 then in, I think, around February of '88 is

21 when I started with the State Medical Board.
Q.
Okay.
So you were with the State
23 Medical Board from February of 1988 until when?
It was about, I think, May, 2005. Okay.

Is that when you took the
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 8 of 91
1 position with the Board of Nursing?
2
3
A.
Yes. Okay.
I guess -- I know you are
4 aware that we are here relative to the case of

5 Edward Patrick versus Cleveland Scene
6 Publishing, et al.? 7
Yes.
Q.
We are here because you were quoted I'm going to be asking you
9 in that article.
10 some questions about the information that was
11 obtained from you in relationship to that

12 article.
If at any time I ask a question you
13 don't understand, let me know.
I am more than
14 happy to rephrase the question, okay?
15
A.
Okay. Please keep your answers verbal in
17 nature.
Make sure I finish asking the question
18 before you attempt to answer.
Is that okay?
That's okay.
20
Q.
If you need to consult with counsel,

We will take a break at any time
21 let me know.
22 you want to and you can consult with counsel

23 any time you need to.
Okay.
I need to ask if you have spoken with
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 9 of 91
Page 9
1 certain people relative to either this article
i' 1;
1.
2 or preparation for or investigation of this
Have you ever spoken to a man named

4 Peter Heimlich?
5
MS.
PFEIFFER:
I ' m going to object,
6 because if you are asking him if he's ever
7 spoken to this person with respect to an

8 investigation, that would be a confidential
9 matter that he would not be permitted to
10 testify to.
Well, first of all, I'm just asking the question, have you ever spoken to him, I 12 13 first? Have you ever spoken to Peter Heimlich? MS. PFEIFFER: I'd like to consult.
15 Do you want to consult?

16
17 18
THE WITNESS:
Sure.
(An off-the-record discussion was held.)

THE WITNESS:
I appreciate the
19 question, but on advice of counsel, I really
20 can't answer that based on -Q Just for the record, then, any 21 22 conversations such as what I asked about, you
23 would consider confidential and protected by

24 statute? 25
MS. P F E I FFER :
If you're getting at
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 10 of 91
Page 10
1 any investigative matters.
2
1'
I-
MR. N.J. BLANKENSHIP:
Okay.
MS. PFEIFFER:
And we are not trying
4 to be obstructionist. We really have a clear
5 duty to protect the investigation itself, as

6 well as the complainant.
7
MR. N . J. BLANKENSHI P:
MS. PFEIFFER:
I understand.
Thank you.
Mr. Dilling, let me show you what we
10 have marked as Exhibit 4L and just ask you to
11 identify that document for the record, please.

A copy of a subpoena.
You were served with a subpoena for
14 appearance here today at your deposition,

15 correct?
16
A.
Yes, I was. Okay. Have you ever spoken with a
18 man named Tom Francis?
19
A.
Yes.
Okay. That wasn't in connection with
21 any investigation; it was in connection with an
22 article he was writing; is that correct?
I spoke to him based upon, you know,

24 him calling me, asking me some questions, of
25 which he may have asked questions about a
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 11 of 91
Page 11 1 complaint, in which I would have given him 2 similar answers to what I'm giving you today in 3 terms of confidentiality. 4 Q. So you would have told him that you
5 could not specifically answer questions about a 6 specific complaint?

7
A.
Correct. You were quoted in an article which
9 he wrote, which is previously marked as Exhibit 10 38 in this case, so I'm not going to mark it 11 again.
I can show you a copy if you need to
12 look at it to refresh your memory. 13
MS. PFEIFFER:
Is that October 27?
Playing Doctor. 15 It probably couldn't hurt me to have
16 a copy of it. Refresh your memory of what it says.

18
A.
I've looked at it since I was served
19 once or twice, kind of scanned the whole thing, 20 and I guess I'm familiar with what I think is
21 just one time that I'm indirectly quoted, quote
22 marks around something that was attributed to
23 me, and then I kind of recall there being

24 another time where they said that I couldn't 25 really say anything relative to any
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 12 of 91
1 investigations.
You were quoted in that

3 article by the Cleveland Scene published in 4 October of 2004, correct?
A.
Depends on what you call a quote.
6 guess there were quote marks and a quote was

7 attributed to me. 8 direct quote.
I don't know if it's a

1
It certainly wasn't something
9 that I said to Mr. Francis. Q.
Were you -- are you trying to tell us
11 that you were attributed with a quote that you
12 did not make?
I was trying to answer that

14 specific question.
Q.
I hadn't gone that far.
Okay.
Were you attributed with a
! ;
16 quote in that article which you did not, in
17 fact, make? Well, yes, I believe so. Tell us what that is. Yeah. I want to -- there is a
-!.t
21 I'll read the paragraph or sentence here, 22 sentence or two.
1:
1
It says, "Dilling never

i ! I.
23 questioned Peter Heimlich about the Lima case
24 or Jewish Hospital residency, but according to

25 Heimlich, Dilling said that 'faking a residency
i.
I
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 13 of 91
Page 13 1 was no big deal,' and the Board was more

2 concerned with chasing doctors who wrote
3 illegal prescriptions."
When I read this, I'm looking at it
5 and saying, you know, in terms of "Dilling 6 never questioned," that wasn't me speaking to 7 Francis, necessarily.
It's possible that
8 Francis asked me something specific about it,

9 but I would have at that point said, you know,
10 I can't get into, you know, anything involving 11 any particular investigation.
12 Q.
Would you have said anything like
13 faking residency was no big deal?
Well, I can tell you that if you let

15 me answer this way.
16
Q.
Okay. Going with the law here, in my 20
18 years with the Board, whatever it was, 18

19 years, '88 to '95. MS. PFEIFFER:
21
THE WITNESS:
2005, right, I'm sorry.
22 I never said faking a residency was no big 23 deal, you know, to anyone.
I can't imagine
24 when -- a situation in which I would have said
25 that.
You know, since I've been subpoenaed,
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
#
1
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 14 of 91
Page 14
1 I've kind of wracked my brain and tried to
2 think, you know, could I have said it in some 3 other context where it could be misconstrued.
4
Certainly in this specific context,
5 and I just can't recall ever saying anything
6 like that, you know, at any point in time in my 7 career. It kind of counters what is fact with
8 the Medical Board, that we take discipline 9 actions every year based upon false statements
10 and we certainly have -- there are cases where
11 somebody has done something wrong or made false

12 statements in terms of, you know, an
13 application, but, you know, the language that's

14 used is, let's say --
15
I'm chuting off.
You guys are here
16 to try to understand what I was saying here, or

17 not saying, faking a residency was no big deal
18 at that time.
I don't remember saying that to

I can't get
19 anyone at any point in time.
20 specific to any particular person.

21 Q.
Okay.
Well, Mr. Francis in this
22 article says that you said that to Peter

23 Heimlich, correct?
24
A.
He says that according to Heimlich, I
25 said that.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 15 of 91
Q.
Right.
A.
And puts quotes around it like, yeah,
3 definitely I said it.
Q.
Right.
It's in quotation marks as if
5 it's a direct quote from you, isn't it? 6
A.
Q.
That's the way I read it. Okay. Now, let me ask you this: Do
8 you remember how many times you talked to
9 Mr. Francis before this article was written?
Before this article was written?

Yes, sir.
I believe I just talked to him one

13 time,
14
Do you remember how long that
15 conversation took place?
You know, it was a while back and
17 it's hard for me to talk to anybody for just a

18 minute or two, but I don't think it was a long 19 one.
Probably, you know, I don't know, my best
20 guess would be anywhere from ten to twenty
21 minutes. Okay. Did you talk to Mr. Francis
23 subsequent to the publication of that article?

24
I
A.
You know, I think that I did, and as
25 best that I can recall, y o a know, I was aware
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 16 of 91
Page 16
1 of this article, you know, when it came out,
2 but I can't tell you how I became aware of it,
3 quite frankly.
I may have asked somebody -- I
4 may have asked him to send me a. copy when it
came out. However it was that I came about, you
7 know, seeing the article, I remember reading

8 the headline and the context within which 9 things were placed and which the context of The 10 Board and their operations were placed and not
11 being too happy about it.
And my recollection
12 is that I did phone him and talk to him and
13 say, you know, we hadn't talked about this 14 quote or, you know, indirect quote and so
15 forth.
Q
Did he never ask you to confirm or
17 disaffirm ---
18
A.
And I wasn't too happy, expressed my That
19 displeasure at the whole of the article.
20 was basically the conversation that I think

21 probably would have on1.y lasted for five
22 minutes.
Did you have a particular

24 characterization for the article that you had
I
I---?- ... . .-..- .

. . : , < l a .
25 conveyed to Mr. Francis?

A_.)il,-,..:
_,
,.-.- -
'
,_.,I
A .
,r~..--~..?.,
L G m L 1 -
. : . . , , , t i .
s-
.I
, 1...
+ I * -
*.-:?..-.
I. !
.-..'.biL.%&
&.l.~(*A~~--.,tn1l---*&-%-_
d
'
" * ~ --H..,'
I..
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 17 of 91
Page 17 Well, I was -- I would say I was

2 disappointed, felt that it was inaccurate, 3 certainly, in terms of inaccurate as to how the
4 Board approaches their business, kind of like

5 what I was trying to impart, maybe not being 6 all that articulate, but saying that, you know,
7 that's not this Board, you know, in terms of
8 the Board taking interest in somebody making

9 false statements in any type of context.
10 That's not their record.
And that's kind of my
11 recollection, was in the space of that five

12 minutes, I tried to make that point. Q.
At any time during the conversation
14 you had with Mr. Francis prior to the article

15 being published, died he ask you to confirm or
16 deny that you had made the quoted remark to 17 Mr. Heimlich'? 18
A.
Q.
No. Okay. Did he tell you that he
20 intended to publish that statement?
21
A.
Q.
No.
In your conversations subsequent to
23 the publication of the article, did you contact 24 Mr. Francis because you were upset about the
25 publication of the article?
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 18 of 91
Yeah.
It was probably as much an At the same
2 emotional reaction as anything.
3 time, I think I was contemplating the
4 possibility of writing something in response,

5 you know, to this article, but obviously by
6 some of the statements here, I think that it
7 becomes very difficult to do something like

8 that.
And I was also oft reminded when I was
9 at the Board to not get into frays such as
10 those with people who I feel or staff feels has
11 treated us poorly or unfairly.
12
Q.
Okay.
And so there was a judgment made at
14 that point not to go any further with that.

l5
(1
I
1
In fact, if you had received a
16 complaint from someone about a physician faking
1 17 a residency, what would be the proper protocol

18 that the Board would have followed? Well, first off, I would say that I'm 1 l9 20 not an investigator myself, you know. That
21 wasn't part of my role at the Board.
Did I get
22 involved in various complaints?
Sure.
I mean,
23 I was aware of things and, at various times,
24 dependent upon the nature of the complaint or
25 what was happening, I may talk to a number of

. ~ ~ . ' ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ C ~ ~ Z ~ * M U .-( I~ J au I -U - ~C W I I ~
1
!:
I.
~mbcf-A-
mar.rhi.*-tcr~&~rma-~~uc
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 19 of 91
Page 19
1 different people involved in the complaint or
1;
i'
2 the investigation.
So, you know, if you want to talk
4 generally about sonlebody who made a false 5 statement on an application or a residency or

6 something that was possibly grounds for 7 disciplinary action by the Board, that would be
8 filed as a complaint and investigated,

9 following, you know, an initial triage as to 10 verify whether or not it's something that we 11 could legally investigate.
12
Okay.
The article further states, I
13 believe, that you had quit. responding -- you
14 cut off responses with Mr. Heimlich.
Did you
15 ever quit responding to Mr. Heimlich or 16 Mr. Francis?

17
A.
Well, I think that that -- you are
18 asking two different questions.
Okay.
20
Y-ou are asking -- I mean, you are
21 asking of two different people and you can ask 22 of five or ten different people and you are 23 kind of roundabout getting at whether I've ever
24 had a conversation with, you know, those
25 people.
You can extend it to illogical
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
r-
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 20 of 91
f
Page 20 1
[
1 extremes.
So you ask me about, you know, Tom
I
I
i
2 Francis, he's a reporter, you know, they wrote 3 an article, I'm quoted in this article;
4 obviously talked to him.

5
Q.
Right. In that respect, I don't see a
1;
I. !
problem in me telling you, yes, I talked to Tom
II::
I ,:
8 Francis.
I
1:
Okay.
!
I'
i
10
A.
But people that aren't -- I don't
1:
I.
11 know how you -- I'm trying to tell you that

I
1 12 people that aren't explicitly identifiable as

13 me talking to them in some other context, I
1;
1
14 just feel like, certainly in this matter, that
15 that's something I can't go into. 16
J understand.
Let me ask you this
17 question:
In your experience as executive
1 8 director of the Ohio Board, did the Ohio Board
i
t
19 ever take action against any physician for
) 20 falsifying crederltizls?
.Yes.
Can I clarify an answer to one
i 22 of my
earlier questions?
Just so you have -Would
Let, ne ask you this question:
I!
I
24 that be public record?

25
A
Oh, yes,
-t-,
j70u
.:, ...
@.+
can -- our disciplines

P &+. -~
L L ? V W -
., .
. r : . . , r ? a ~ : t ; * - p a , i . .
i;iitttttt~~,ff' .: r;v.x.+
i~A:,~::,..:,.:v.~.
r%+*:ibibLw~.+).~i~v*& ,
J';
\
- %
!. ': f;
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 21 of 91
i
b
1 I
'*-
Page 21 i; 1 are out on the websife.
You can go to
2 n e w s l e t t e r s a n d t h e y would have listings, and
3 you can ask the Board and they would give you
4 listings of all the years.

Q.
So any disciplinary action taken
6 against a physician for falsifying a record

7 would be accessible to the public?
Yes.
9
Q-
Go ahead.
You wanted to explain
10 something?
1 w a n t e d t-o say in t e r ~ n sof w h a t I
12 did in being involved in investigations and so
13 forth, I have no authority to close complaints

14 under the statute as t h e supervising members of 15 t h e Board d o .
16
general.:^,
in terms of cutting off
1 17 communications people involved in / complaints so forth, you know, it couldn't

with
18
and
19 b e -- you know, I couldn't go and shut down a
20 complaint and close it and theE end some type
1
I
I
21 of relationship that way.

22
Q.
Okay.
In your conversations with Tom
1I 23 Francis, did he ask you at any time if any
i
t
24 action had ever been t a k e n b y t h e Ohio Medical
1 25 Board against Dr. Patrick?
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 22 of 91
Page 22 Gosh, he may have.

2 could.
3
Yeah, very well
Would you have answered that question
4 or would that have been something --
A.
No, that would have been public
6 record if we had taken disciplinary action. Q.
In your conversation with Torn
8 Francis, after the article was published, did 9 you have any conversat.ion -- excuse me, did the
10 issue of deadlines come up?

1 1 A.
Well, again, this is as best I can

You know, I'm under oath and it's my
12 recall.
13 recollection that I called and talked to him
14 and did this.
I will admit to it being, you
15 know, three y e a r s ago or whatever and -Sure .

17
i:.
I '
A.
-- being somewhat sketchy, and I
rl
18 don't have any type of records that I can go
19 back to to verify personally.
But my
20 recollection is that I did speak to him and. did 21 question him about not having an opportunity 22 to, you know, respond to things that he is 23 saying, or sonleone is saying that I said.
24
Q.
In respocse, did he tell you he had a
25 deadline to meet?
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 23 of 91
Page 23 j,
I
And - - I'm sorry.
And yes, my
2 recollection was his response to me was
3 something a k i r ~to, you know, there's a lot in

4 this article, I had deadlines to meet. 5 couldn't get back to you, kind of I recall him
6 as being somewhat apologetic in response, but
7 not giving me very much answer in terms of, you

8 know, the whole of the artic1.e and what
1I
/
9 direction I seemed to think it was taking in

10 terms of headlines and so forth. l1
Okay.
I
I/
Let me show you what has been

This appears to be an
12 marked as Exhibit 4M.
13 article published by the Cleveland Scene on May

14 4, 2005, by reporter Chris Maag.
1I
I believe you are also quoted in this

17 article,
bring
Do you
18 remember talking to Chris Maag about this
1
I
19 article?
20
A.
I kn~w of the article.
I've read it
21 before.
I
I haven't read i t for some time, and I
22 believe t h a t Mr. Maag was present outside a
23 legislative hearing at the time and that he
11 24 talked to
me briefly at t h a t time.
Whether he
I
i . i . C l t ~ ~ r ~ w
( I '
2 5 t a l k e d to me a h o u t it on the phone or n o t ,
.
,
I
.
1: 1:
!
. ~
-.
- -.
.-%,t.
....rep
r . * t r m
-tlW*i.r.:-r
K-*IZ'-,
b % r c C J -16,
% .;,
2 s i '
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 24 of 91
1 can't recall, b u t my inclination i s to think I
2 didn't talk to him over t h e phone, t h a t I just

3 talked t o him that one time when we were here. 4 But it's p o s s i b l e I talked t o him on t h e phone
5 too.
6
In your conversation with Tom Francis
7 prior tc the publication of the article, do you

8 recall telling -9
A.
Back to Tom Francis?

Yes.
Okay.
Do you recali telling Mr. Francis any

13 specifics about. the investigation process,
I I
1
i
14 about the Board processes, or anything of t h a t
Ii
/
15 sort t h a t are not published in his article?

You know, I kind of do. 1'7 again, as best as I can recreate a
You know,
18 conversation, and it's not all t h a t great of an
I1 2 0 t h a t
19 ability, as Lo all that is asked, but I t h i n k
i1
there wa:i
sane discussion in generalities
2 1 how the Board goes about its operations, you
22 know, what they are allowed t o do and s o forth.

2 3 And t h e r e may have been some discussion
'I
1
i
24 generally, like, you know, in terms of what

2 5 would t h e Board do i n t h i s
or this type of
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 25 of 91
Page 2 5
,:
\
1 situation.
But 1 can't honestly recall whether
iI
1
I
3 or not that wzs a long conversation or I'm just 4 melding other conversations with other
5 reporters - 6
7
(2
Okay.
-- at that time and over the years.

Do you recall whether the
9 conversation with Tom Francis addressed the
I I
11 credentials b y a p h y s i . c i a n ?
12
1
I
T j n s t can't recall.
I1
i1
i 1
I
Okay.
Can you -- do you know whether
14 or not the public record would reflect whether

15 or not the Board ever took any disciplinary
16 action against Dr. Edward Patrick?

17
A.
Okay.
I'm sorry.
I wasn't listening
1
/
18 to your question because I was reading

19 something i n here that kind of goes back to the
2 0 past question.
G o ahead and respond to the past
1I
I
22 question and 1 will ask my question agzin.

MR. ZIRI'4:
Which past question are
1I
24 you responding to?

THE: WITNESS :
About ny conversations
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 26 of 91
Page 2 6 1.
[
I
1 w i t h , o r what M r . -- what M r . F r a n c i s may have

2 asked m e a h o c t g e n e r a l l y a n d a b o u t t h e
3 p r o c e s s e s and s o forth.
In the article,
4 b e c a u s e I saw m y name here, i t s a y s ,
"Dilling
5 did say t h a t i n 1976, the year t h a t Patrick 6 s h o u l d have corn~leteclh i s r e s i d e n c y , 7 post-gradnate
t r a i n i n g was n o t a r e q u i r e m e n t
And that c e r t a i n l y i s
Ii
8 for licensure."
9 s o m e t h i n g that I r e c a l l saying.
I've said i t
1 0 t o a couple p e o p l e , you know, who h a v e a s k e d m e
11 q u e s t i o n s ,
so it's v e r y l i k e l y , you know, i f h e
I1
1 2 s a i d t h a t I s a i d i t or. this end, I would s a y ,

1 3 y e a h , I m u s t h a v e had some c o n v e r s a t i o n w i t h
1 4 him a l o n g t h o s e l i n e s .
/I
i
i i
I
T h a t h e l p s m e a little okay, yeah, I
15 b i t w i t h my menory, t h a t , w e l l ,
1
/
1 6 think w e p r o b a b l y d i d t a l k f o r a few minutes
17 a b o u t that..
I
i
18
Does t h a t s t a t e m e n t . t r i g g e r your
19 memory a s to a n y t h i n g e l s e you may have t o l d
/ 20 M r . F r a n c i s ? 1
1 1i
I
21
No, b u t s e e ,
that's a general
2 2 q u e s t i a n a b o u t w h a t the laws were a t a s p e c i f i c
2 3 p e r i o d o f tirne, a n d I w ~ u l dh a v e t r i e d t o
24 a n s w e r t h a t for a n y b o d y .
Then l e t m e g o back t o t h e
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 27 of 91
Page 27
1 question I asked a few minutes ago.
I apologize.
That's okay.
The question is, do you
4 know if the public record, non-confidential

5 information, reflects whether the Ohio Medical
6 Board ever took any corrective or disciplinary

7 action against Dr. Edward Patrick?
Yes, that's public record. Do you know if the public records
10 reflect whether they ever did take any action

11 against Dr. Patrick? 12
As of the time I left the Board,

I haven't followed him since.
13 yeah, I know.
What was the case as of the time you

1 5 left the Board?
At the time that I left the Board,

17 there had been no disciplinary action ever
18 taken against Dr. Patrick.
That is something
19 that is verifiable as current status on the
20 Board's website.
Okay. MR. N.J. BLANKENSHIP:

23 further questions, Mr. Dilling.
Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
25 BY MR. ZIRM:
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 28 of 91
Page 28 :
Mr. Dilling, I get a chance to ask
2 you some questions as well.
A.
Q.
No problem.
That's why we are here. My name is Ken Zirm.

i
We met briefly.
5 I represent the Cleveland Scene and Tom Francis
6 in the lawsuit filed against them by Dr.

7 Patrick.
Let me ask you what titles you held
8 at the Ohio State Medical Board.

9
A.
Okay.
I started, and I believe my

i
1 0 title was enforcement coordinator.
11
12
What did that job entail? It's a lot like what I do today.
i
4
13 There are some
--
a lot of similarities, but But it's
1 4 there are some differences too.
15 investigating -- I shouldn't say investigating.

I
16 You're an attorney for the Board.

17 an investigation.
There's been
I
At that time I was one of
18 only two enforcement coordinators and we were
19 about half the size of the Board today, if

2 0 that.
21
So a big part of my job was then to
2 2 work with the staff to present the secretary

I
2 3 and supervising member with an analysis, a 2 4 legal analysis of where we were in terms of
25 being able to prove or not prove a disciplinary

1
I
~ ~ , , ~ ~ t ~ t l w ~ - ~ ~ ~ c h ; - c h ; - . ~ T T - T .~ T~ T tn ~~ -i iT di Ti iT uT ~t Tj t~~ , ..u.; . is ~ ~~ 4, ~ ~ ~i ~ n - i i - *mu5a* .~. rj~---
.a;'
x.-k
. + .
-1 .T
-2.
, w * ~4* .aj+,t-
.2.
+4,31i~i1>
.-
"J
,+t*.,
'.m
dd
u~:T---
.;t*~.is.
~ - - . . ~ . i t ~ ~ ~ - i ~ ~ ~ ~ ta.$ a a ~ . s . ~ .
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
*
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 29 of 91
.
Page 29
1 case against a licensee.
2
'
i
Q.
How long did you hold that position?

i
I was in that position until about
Okay. And with that position, I would say

7 that because it was such a small, you know,
I
I
8 place and that, obviously, we had other duties 9 and so forth, I was given almost from the start
10 a lot of, I guess, leeway in terms of doing
s
i
I
11 other things that, you know, the Board needed

1 2 help on.
I
For example, one would be acting as

14 kind of a liaison with the state government,
1 5 and by necessity I probably from the beginning
16 talked to reporters and so forth.
We had
17 somebody on Board that did more of that, but
18 certainly when you had a specific case, you

1 9 ended up having to talk with the press, you
20 know, at times, because you had, you know, some

21
information that might be relevant. And in 1 9 9 5 I believe that they made
23 me a government affairs officer or some title
24 like that, and while I still did some, I

25 believe, enforcement work at that time, the
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 30 of 91
Page 30
1 idea was to push me more in the direction of
2 working with committees, drafting rules, you

3 know, things like that.
4 devoted to that.
Most of my time was
And then in, oh, I think like a year
6 or two prior to me becoming director in 2000, I
7 was made public and government affairs officer.
8 That was a supervisory position, because until 9 that time I had not had direct supervisory 10 experience, and I believe my role there was to
11 supervise, geez, I think some executive staff
12 people.
You know, I had some supervisory staff And
13 role, but it wasn't for that long a time. 14 then the director at that time was Ray 15 Baumgardner and he retired, and so I had
16 applied for the job and had the job from 2000
17 until I left in May of 2005, I believe.
18
Q.
And as executive director, generally
19 what is your role, if any, in the investigation
20 of the complaint against a physician? 21

A.
Little or none in terms of direct

I think that if you are to go
22 involvement.
23 back and talk to certain staff, a criticism
24 would be that I was involved in a lot of

25 different, you know, things and so I would ask
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 31 of 91
Page 31
1 questions, and at the same time we were even
2 smaller than we are today.
They have gotten,
3 you know, more staff in the past two years 4 since I've left, and so it became necessary at
5 times to talk to complainants, talk to
-- or
6 review complaints, you know, in terms of what
7 others had reviewed, and perhaps give my view
8 to the secretary and supervising member, and to
9 staff.
It wasn't a regular part of my job,
10 didn't take up much time in terms of -- you 11 know, I didn't get involved in that many cases, 12 but there were occasions which I did.
The same
13 with talking to the press or even picking up 14 the phone and talking to anybody; I was a 15 pretty accessible person in terms of, you know, 16 I would give anybody my telephone number, my 17 direct line, and people would call.
And when
18 you called and you had a question, I tried to 19 answer it for you, you know, trying to give you 20 a little bit of feel.
Sure.
When you were executive
22 director, how big was the investigative staff 23 of the State Medical Board? 24
When I was the director, I think we
25 were at about 20 investigators, and they would

I
~ r r ~ P ; Y ~ ~ a . . i i i -
. ,.
~ ~ ~ - ~ 1 i i ~ : ~ . - r ~ 1 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ n ~ ~ ~ 1 r i ~ r ~ ~ r ~ 1; t r* ~ 1~ ? t ~ i i u i i ~ x i n~ t r c r
>
ma*~ ~
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
I
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 32 of 91
Page 32 1 be located throughout the state, worked for the

2 most part out of
3 office.
-- their home was their
We had two investigator supervisors,
4 and then we had an assistant director who was
5 over, you know, those two investigators.

6 Q.
I'm sorry.
Two supervisors?
Two investigator supervisors, one for

8 the north and one for the south region, and
9 then there was an assistant director who was
10 accountable for those persons.
And then there
11 was an assistant executive director who was

12
accountable to all of that chain going down. And would every complaint be assigned
14 to somebody in the investigative staff?

15 A.
Not every complaint.
The Board got,
16 geez, when I left, probably more than 3,000
17 complaints a year.
It had steadily,
18 incrementally grew, and there's a triage that

19 occurred through a staff attorney, for the most
20 part.
21
There were certain protocols, certain
things went certain places, so they wouldn't
1 2 2 all go out for an investigator to actually go
23 out and investigate a case.
You know, it
24 depended upon the nature of that complaint.
25
Did you ever participate in the
1 triage, the initial triage of a complaint that
2 came in while you were executive director?
Participate would be
--
is kind of a
4 broad word.
I'm sure that I did participate in
5 some way in some complaints, if it was an
6 especially noteworthy complaint in terms of the
7 egregiousness of the complaint or the notoriety

8 that perhaps a complaint had already received
9 before it got to our door.
Somebody might have
10 then said, hey, Tom, this just came in, what do 11 you think of this?
Or I would say, let's move
12 this.
Or I would get a phone call from
13 somebody and say, hey, we need to move on such 14 and such a complaint.
So something of that
15 sort, but not something where I would regularly

16 review something as it came through.
17
Q.
And I take it, I mean, you started That's kind of what you
18 out in enforcement.
19 did initially, correct, triage work on these
20 complaints?
Yes, sure, in some way, shape, or

22 form, right.
23
Now, if you had the occasion to talk
24 to a complainant or maybe even talk to someone
25 that had knowledge about a complaint, would
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 34 of 91
Page 34
1 you, as a general matter, produce notes, memos,
2 something that would end up in the file
3 regarding your conversations with people?
I would say the answer is -5 generally, I would say yes.
It would probably
6 depend on the nature of that information, you 7 know, how long the call was, what they were
8 imparting, whether it was just somebody who is

9 saying the same thing that they may have to an
1 0 investigator and they were just
-- had some
If I felt
11 displeasure that the complaint wasn't going as

1 2 fast as it should be and so forth.
13 like all that information was already a part of
14 the record, then I probably wouldn't put all 15 that much, or see all that much urgency to say,
16 hey, talked to so-and-so and such and such. 17 Would I today?
Probably so.
It seems like we But
18 have gone to more recordkeeping.
1 9 generally, you know, I would say I would, yeah.
20
Q.
What is the record retention policy
21 of the Medical Board on investigative files?

22 A.
You know, they have a records
2 3 retention schedule and, you know, I would have
24 to rely on that as the answer to that question. 25

Q.
Do you know what it is, as you sit

-
~ i~l )~ ra ; ? e f i l ( & C j i l i ~ ~ ! ~ t t ; t 1 1 $ l ! L ~ - ~ : : + ~ ~ : l i ~ L7 i& i ki l . i ! l i i ~ , ~ i r . l . * r j i j : $ ~ k e i t 1 L i l l ~ C ~ ~.~.~;.~11~!1!Lfd,.~~~;:~I:Il1~~~~Ui,tI>~, :. ~+-hrn(l&--i~~. I . . - - ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ . ~ I J + ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ $ ~ ~ ~ ; ~ ~ ~ I I I ~ ~ , I I ~ ~. ~ r +~l c ~r~ . l -. . - a- , -. l~l ~ L ~I> L , ~I ~L~ ~ ~ ~ L. C . ~ t !~
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 35 of 91
Page 35
1 here today?
No.
3 you.
Today, you know, I couldn't tell
I would say that obviously the section
4 that we talked about before shields those

5 investigations, even when they are closed, or
6 at least that was --
Q.
I knew we were going to get to it.
8 wanted to know how long it exists.

9
A.
I would say that our records
10 retention policy keeps things longer than, say,
11 the Nursing Board does.

12
I'm confident in that. When you say uour,w
MS. PFEIFFER:
13 you are talking about the Medical Board?
THE WITNESS:
15 Medical Board.
That's right, the
You know, again, I've never

I tried.
16 quite left there fully.

17
Q.
I guess, then, that makes me curious,
18 what is the Nursing Board's retention policy? 19
You know, that's a good question,
20 because we've had some discussions recently 21 about, you know, just what that was, but, you
22 know, my understanding is that when they enter

23 into an agreement that, say, settles a case and 24 it ends up in disciplinary action, that they
25 are permitted by the records retention schedule
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 36 of 91
Page 36
1 to delete that information, get rid of that
2 information, pretty much in its entirety.
Now, I would say that even with that,
4 that doesn't mean that you always go and, you 5 know, get everything.
There had to be some
6 judgments, I think, being made as to what
7 should be retained just in case somebody

8 doesn't abide by the agreement, the terms of
9 that, something else comes up and that, and so
10 we've had some discussions along those lines.
11
Q.
Okay, Whereas I don't see that was all that
13 much of a pressing problem over at the Medical

14 Board.
That was my recollection. Mr. Blankenship asked you some
16 questions about what the public record shows as
17 far as physician discipline and, for instance, 18 if Dr. Patrick had ever been disciplined by the 19 Ohio State Medical Board,
That would be a
20 matter of public record?
Yes,
22 Q.
What more would be in the public
23 record, other than the fact that a
-- what
24 facts about a physician's disciplinary action

25 would be public record?
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 37 of 91
Page 37
1
Sure.
If there was a notice letter
2 sent to initiate the 119 hearing process; once

3 that's issued, that becomes a public record.
4 Then a lot of the stuff that happens after that 5 is public record; if you go to a hearing, the
6 hearing transcript.
Obviously when you throw
7 patient records into the mix, there's
8 confidentiality provisions that protect that. 9 The identity of the complainant is protected, 10 you know, within that process. But you get Some
11 pretty much an idea as it goes through.
12 cases are settled, you know, as well so you 13 don't have that.
14
Now, when an action is taken by the There's a
15 Board, that order is public record.
16 report recommendation that's drafted by the
17 hearing examiner, public record.
The Board
18 debates the discipline in open session, which
19 they technically do not have to do that under

20 the law, and they made a change to start doing
21 that sometime in the mid '80s. I think, you
22 know, around '87, I think that they started
23 doing that, you know. In a matter of contrast, the Nursing

25 Board does not deliberate in public session.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 38 of 91
Page 38
1 So what you will hear is this report and
2 recommendation, and they will, you know, be

3 discussing why they are making their choice. 4 It's almost like being in a room listening to a
5 jury, you know, that debates.

6 public record.
So all that's
The notice letter, does that, as the

8 name would imply, notify the physician of the
9 nature of the charges against him
--
Yes.
-- or her?
And the opportunity to be heard on
13 those charges.
Why did you leave the Medical Board? Well, there's probably a lot of
16 personal reasons, you know, just in terms of
17 who I am and where I was at the time, but I 18 really loved the Medical Board.
I loved
19 working for them.
But my wife and I, we had a
20 child in June of 2004, and I announced to the
21 Board about October, I think, that I wanted to
22 leave.
I talked to one or two of the Board
23 members, you know, about it, just prior, you
24 know, to doing that.
But if you're a parent,
25 you know it is very demanding work, and my wife
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 39 of 91
1 and I had a number of miscarriages, and I just
2 wanted to be with him.

3
Q.
Okay.
Let me show you a couple
4 documents. 5
One has been marked Exhibit 57. I tried to pick up where
MR. ZIRM:
6 we left off, Jeff
.
Okay.
Just take a moment to review this 9 document for me. Okay. Have you ever seen this document
12 before?
No. It is Mr. Whitehouse. Was he your
15 immediate successor as executive director?
A.
Yes. It appears to be a letter to Dr.
Q.
18 Patrick from Mr. Whitehouse indicating that

19 it's a response to his letter requesting
20 verification that post-graduate medical
21 training was not required for physician
22 licensure during the years 1975 and 1976,

23 correct?
Yes. And you agree with that statement?
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 40 of 91
Page 40 As far as I recall, yeah. 2 understanding of the law, yes.

3 Q.
Is it your understanding that the law
4 has changed in that regard to present day?

5 post-graduate medical training now a
6 requirement for physician licensure? Yeah.

8
Do you have any idea when that
9 changed?
You know, it was in the early

11 Do you want to know why it changed?
12
13
A.
Sure. The Board used to approve foreign
14 medical schools, you know, like it was okay,

15 you can be licensed under this school and that
16 and disapprove them.

17
There was a, I believe, federal
18 lawsuit, which the Board was a named defendant, 19 you know, nationally going after the Boards for
20 discriminating against the foreign medical

21 schools and so forth, and so the legislature
22 looked into this question and they changed the
23 law so that, kind of coupled with a couple
24 paths to licensure, supposedly were equivalent

25 and I believe are, but to the best of their
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 41 of 91
Page 41
1 ability, without the Board, you know, getting
2 the Board out of the approval process of
3 schools, so that today if you are a graduate

4 from an ACGME accredited school, which are
5 generally United States schools and Canada, you
6 need to have one year of post-graduate
7 training.
8
And if you are from a non-ACGME
9 accredited school, then you need two years, or

10 through the second year level.
Not just two
11 years, you have to go through the second year
12 level.
And also with that comes you have to

14 pass the exam, the USMLE, and then, of course, 15 there are all kinds of grandfather provisions
16 and so forth.
And you have to graduate from You have to show
17 one of those schools too. 18 that. 19
But that's probably pretty much the That was what was changed. They
20 three prongs.
21 call things different things too, like I'm
22 using the word post-graduate training.

23 to be
It used
-- like you talked about an internship

Right. Is the Ohio State Medical
24 first year out and residencies.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 42 of 91
Page 42
1 Board at all involved in the accreditation of
2 the post-graduate training programs?
Yeah.
Pretty broad question. Not
I will
4 try to give you the short answer. 5 directly.
You know, the statute deems that if But
6 they are, you know, you do certain things.
7 if they are a member of the Federation of State

8 Medical Boards, who does have some role, you
9 know, in working with those type of bodies, you

10 know, towards the formation of their policies
11 and so forth, almost as a lobbying or advocate
I
12 on behalf of all those Boards.
SO in essence,
!
I
I
13 the Boards, individual Board can have some 14 impact upon those systems and how things work
15 out, but it has to be done through the politics

16 at those levels.
17
I see.
And generally, though, in the

i
18 U.S. today, the accrediting organization is the 19 ACGME?
20
21
For the schools, yes.

1
Q.
Is that also the major accrediting

I
22 organization for the post-graduate training
23 programs?
24
A.
Yes.
In fact, actually, you were

I
25 asking me two different things and I was kind

, ,j
:
-
, :
Iltmltll * .
44 z l i i i m Z k i e e i = ---::.u~.itfi~
:rittr:rf.f-~-~*Y1Wb
I L ~ ~ ~ ~ ' L I I Z ~ ~ Y I - ' -
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
I
v
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 43 of 91
Page 43
1
1 of putting them all together in my mind here.
2 I'm trying to remember all the different

3 acronyms.
,
1
The ACGME is Accreditation Council
1 i
4 for Graduate Medical Education, so, therefore,

5 I thought that they were for the schools.
Now
6 maybe I'm picking up the different -- the wrong
j
i
7 one.
Maybe they are the residency.
It's been
8 a couple years and now I'm out and I'm trying 9 to think of the, you know, who the different
:!
--
'I
I
10 because it is two different bodies.

11 trying
I'm
-- I'm sorry that I'm mixing it up, and

I
12 I can't go back there right now.

Q.
:t
That's all right.
Any knowledge that
14 you have is more than what I have.
A.
Well, I don't know.
I don't want to
16 give you bad information.
Q.
Handing you what's been marked as
18 Defendant's Exhibit 58, would you take a moment

19 to look at this?
MR. ZIRM:
I have an extra. Thanks. See, they are talking
MS. PFEIFFER:
THE WITNESS:
23 in this letter about the ACGME, post-graduate 24 and residency program.
I'm pretty sure that is
25 the case.
I'm trying to remember when I give
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
t
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 44 of 91
Page 44
1 you those two differentiations between U.S. and
2 Canada schools and the foreign schools, all of
>
3 that was correct of what I said.
But I
4 probably said ACGME for that, and I'm trying to

i
5 remember the correct acronym.
Q.
Okay. Yeah. Have you had a chance to review this?

i
9 I guess the first question, that's a memo dated
10 June 6, 2 0 0 6 ,
so this is after you left the

I
11 State Medical Board, correct?

12 13
A.
Yes. It's written by Kay Rieve. Is that
t~
14 how to
15
16
-Kay Rieve. Kay Rieve. You worked with Kay at
Q.
17 the Medical Board? 18 19

Q.
!
I 1
Yes. And it is addressing the issue of
2 0 whether
-- apparently whether a training
21 certificate was required in Ohio to take part

2 2 in a residency or internship or fellowship?
I i
23
24
A.
Uh-huh. Do you have any knowledge about that
I
I
25 subject?
I
I
la,_.-,,.urq&-.
. r . i ~ ~ ~ ~ * . ~ z r l
I r~ ~ ?~ I I H H ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ I I ~ ? ~ ~~ tb ir ~~ ~L ~ ;~ U J ~ ~ J ~ I~ & W~ L~U 'I & ~W . ~ S K < ? U ~ ?~ ~. ~ ~ : ~ ~ ~ . t I ~ -t i ~~ ~ ~ ~ i ~ l i l ~ t t . ~ ~ 1 ~ . ~ ~ F~ I O.' ~ ~ -L1 1 1~ ill i i ii- * lA 1- I ~ 1 r ~ r-U
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 45 of 91
Page 45 Yeah.
2
Yes, I do.
Q.
And basically this memo is saying
3 that prior to
-- since July 1st of 1999, in

--
4 Ohio, residents or interns needed to have a
5 training certificate
6
A.
Yes.
-- to participate in a residency or
8 internship or fellowship?
A.
Correct. It's saying prior to July 1, 1999,
11 that was not required?

12
A.
Not mandatory, right, not required. That's your understanding as well? Yes. Are you aware that at some time prior
1 6 in Ohio's history, there were training 1 7 certificates called temporary certificates, 1 8 that there was a name change?
Yes, I believe so.

20
Q.
Okay.
And what's your understanding
2 1 about
-- when you say that they weren't
2 2 mandatory prior to 1999, what's your 2 3 understanding as to what, if anything, was
24 required for someone in Ohio to participate in
25 a residency program?
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 46 of 91
Page 46 Okay. You will understand from, you
2 know, my history with the Board and so forth, I

3 was involved in a lot of the legislative 4 proceedings and so forth
--
Right, sure.
-- that went into this and the

7 Board's work and that. 8 Q.
Because in July of '99, when the law
9 changed, that's about the time you had the

10 governmental affairs position?
11
A.
Right.
Again,
I have always, except
1 2 when I was the director and somebody else did 1 3 that work, but I still was involved, but there 1 4 used to be a program, I can't tell you what it 1 5 dates back to, but this temporary
16 certificate --
Yes.
-- it was almost treated as a, you

19 know, a voluntary thing. 20 for it.
The statutes allowed
I can't tell you exactly how that
2 1 statute was worded, but it was interpreted by 2 2 someone, be that the Board, AG office,
23 combination, the Board itself, you know, that
24 it was treated as a voluntary thing, and some

2 5 programs would tell their students, go get
; ~ L ~ ~ ~ - ~ ~ ~ * J ~ ~ ~ U ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ : P ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ . L L L ~ ~ & T X ? ~ ~ . ~ . I ~ ~ - ~ ~ . . : ~ -d'.z-:..+1t>!2i+s.:, L ~ . I U # ~~ ~ $'~L.L. .1 ~ I ~ :L . ~ ~ ~ ~ I I I ~~ ~~ ~ . JH ~ H ~ H: ~ ~ ~ J ~~ ~ I ,~ .-,-*. ~ . ,. LG I~ ~ U. & ~ L Is U ~~ UI ~ U ~ x~ ~ ~ ~ ~ .~L~#~ . ~L ~ l ~. ~ ~ ~ . .~ . ~ ~ ~- ~ ~ # ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ : .~ ~
-...
'
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 47 of 91
1 these.
Now, I will tell you that when you
3 applied and gave your name and what program you
4 were in, that's about all it was, really.

5 mean, I'm giving you generalities, but they
6 basically put your name next to a number and

7 issued you that temp.
NOW I'm sure --
The Medical Board did? The Medical Board did. There may
10 have been some type of cursory review for those 11 certificates in terms of, you know, does this 12 really look like this came from Ohio State or 13 some other program? We know who is running
14 different programs, who did it, you know, over

15 time, that type of thing.
There had to have
16 been something like that, because you are not
17 just handing out temporary certificates. 18 don't want to be too flip about, you know, what 19 went into it, but it's nowhere near what goes
20 into the process, which is application oriented
21 and so forth, by individuals, that occurs post

22 July of 1999, where everybody had to do it.
23
Q.
So your understanding is that prior
24 to July, 1999, it was pretty much up to the

25 program as to whether they were going to
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 48 of 91
Page 48
1 require a temporary certificate?
Right. And not up to the Ohio State Medical

4 Board?
Right. The second part of Ms. Rieve's memo

7 indicates that the Board is not in a position
8 to individually verify expired training
9 certificates.
Is that your understanding as
10 well? 11
A.
Yeah.
I couldn't tell you exactly
12 whatnot in a position, you know, whether or not

13 records retention is we get rid of things or 14 whatever, but yeah, I will go by what she says.
Do you have any knowledge as to what

16 the procedure was as to retaining training 17 certificates issued by the Board?
No, I'm sorry, I can't recall. 19

Q.
Since July of 1999, would it be a
20 potentially -- a potential violation of Medical
21 Board rules and regulations to participate in a

22 residency program without a training
23 certificate?
24
Yes. Are you familiar with any
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
I I
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 49 of 91
Page 49
1 disciplinary procedures that have been
2 instituted for that purpose, based on that?

3
A.
To the best of my recollection, yes,
4 we have -- the Board has taken disciplinary

5 actions for persons practicing without that
6 certificate, and those would be public record,

7 and that would be pretty easy to do
a search,
8 you know, of that.
Q.
Okay.
We have issued
-- the
10 defendants have issued a subpoena on the Ohio

11 State Medical Board in connection with this
12 case.
I am going to hand you Exhibit 59 and
1 3 represent to you this is the packet of
14 materials we received in response to that
15 subpoena.
I won't necessarily have you review
16 the whole packet, but I'd like to ask you a

1 7 couple questions about some specific documents
18 in here.
If you would just turn to the second
19 page of this exhibit, the title is Application
20 for Endorsement of a Medical License by the 21 State Medical Board. Can you tell me what
22 endorsement licensure is?
23
A.
That would be persons licensed in
24 another state and they endorse their license,
25 you know, here.

. .-- - - - - - - u - - - u n . : - & L L ~ ~ ~ H ~ . ~ , ~ n n ~
It was, you know, one of those

;krl)
. ~ . 4 1 4 ~ - ~ . i i . x
-r*
-U~.M~.~*-JLI.I:..--~LL:U,. -_,__II~:: L_I.IHCI~I _
. -.
~ L - ~ ~ , . . . - L - -
e-=tn,&i.h.Y----dt~nI~.~r
'
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 50 of 91
Page 50
1 requirements.
The statute says if somebody has
2 been licensed in another state, you need to

3 prove this, this, and this, and you would go
4 through perhaps a more
-- you might have to
5 jump through a couple more hoops if you didn't 6 have that license previously.
I guess that was going to be my next
8 question.
Is it fair to say that the
9 requirements for licensure in Ohio were a

10 little less stringent for somebody that already
11 had a license from another state?
12
A.
Yes.
I think there was deference
1 3 granted to the other state having looked and
14 verified certain things so that you weren't

15 re-duplicating everything each and every time
16 somebody moved from state to state.

1 7 pretty common licensure device.
That's a
18
Q.
And this is actually a form, an
19 application filled out by Edward A. Patrick,

2 0 and if you look on the first page, there's
--
2 1 between the fifth and sixth items, do you see
22 where it says, Ohio State Medical Board issued

2 3 Certificate of Preliminary Education Number,
24 and then it's got a number and a date?
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 51 of 91
Page 51
What is the Certificate of Maybe that's a dated
2 Preliminary Education?
3 term.
I was going to say, this document, 5 think, pre-dates even me being at the Medical 6 Board.
Q.
8 A.
9 context.
Q.
Is that a term you are familiar with) Yeah. Perhaps in a different
Okay. The -- you know, you had to prove, I
11
A.
12 think, through the back here, '88, 2000, or 13 whatever, that there was certain statutory 14 requirements, like 4731 in '05, '06, that you 15 have a high school diploma or equivalency and 16 you had to go to college prior to you going to 17 medical school.
I think that's the term, the
18 preliminary education term.

19
NOW, it seems to me that there is a
20 statute that refers to preliminary education,
21 that somebody needs to verify that or do 22 something, you know, with respect to that. 23 That's the best of my recollection. 24 Q. Okay.
I will not profess to be an expert on
f
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
1
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 52 of 91
.
Page 5 2
1 that.
2
I
1
Let me ask you to turn a couple more At the top it will say form Roman
3 pages.
4 numeral five, Affidavit of Physicians.
Sure, yes. Is that a requirement that you are

7 familiar with?
Is that a requirement while you
8 were working for the Board?
A.
Yes.
It looked a little bit

i
1 0 different, but part of the process of licensure
11 would be, you know, getting different

1 2 statements from different places, like you work 1 3 someplace or somebody who knows you, you know, 1 4 verifies you, just like they did at the Bar.
15
i
I I
think I had to come up with three people that
1 6 said that I was sane or something, you know,
17 akin to that. 18 today.
I think that's still there
You know, you can verify, you know,

!
19 that, but again, to the best of my

2 0 recollection, yeah, that's something everybody
I &
$
21 has.
22
Q.
This form is apparently two

1
23 physicians that are, for lack of a better term,

2 4 vouching for Dr. Patrick here? 25
I
,>
i
I
---
4 -
* * ~ ~ - ~ ~ c - - + - & - - r ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ u ~ . ~ - -uli ~ ~ ~ .x),re$*".ll ~ I I ~1 ~ c. ~ . ~d iEi . uir l w j8..~--.
my?(.
h.+ii._
-./G.tU
'(4
8-1
z1111t141&II111
-<.,
.--..
<jt>+bdd&c
L,&mSt+-m--?-
L ,
L***-.-d
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 53 of 91
.
Page 53
+
Qo
And the form provides for them to
2 kind of insert how long he's been in the 3 practice of medicine, the applicant?
Sure. Do you see that? Yes. Qo It says, has been in the practice of
f
$'
8 medicine, in the top one, for the last 9 one-and-a-half years at Jewish Hospital,
1 0 Cincinnati.
11
Do you know whether this form
i 1
still has that requirement in it?

A.
12 13
No. Do you know what the purpose of that
14 is?
15
No, other than the fact that, you
1 6 know, again, given the best of my recollection
17 and abilities, sure, working with the Board,

1 8 that, you know, the processes have changed so
6
19 much in that by virtue of the fact that a

2 0 residency wasn't a required
-- a requirement,
21 rather, for licensure, that somehow the doctors

2 2 felt more comfortable if they were getting
23 something from somebody who had known them, you

2 4 know, in terms of their medical practice or in 2 5 terms of their training.
~ r l r ~ ~ ~ , L & . . 4 ! t > L ~ + ~ W ~
d . bdbfLA-x~l>lJ~ ~ z > H .1111k-~>?#tiik~-<<
I
t
!
>i
-.
,,#,I
' :
-2,' > f i $ < t c e
,,lit'#
,L-
t*L,tMC<..z--.mm
'lld.<'.>.~----
-*-..zi>>Lsi?-
J h I L 2 2 % r i ~ a i h & *I .-
--s-.d~-dt~lL
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 54 of 91
Page 54
1 mean, again, people, the term
2 residency, you know, I'm sure it meant

3 something different back in the '70s than it
4 does today.
You have to go back and talk to
5 people who were involved then and were involved
6 in that field, but that's kind of my
7 understanding of it.
And here, the practice of
I
1
8 medicine is the same if you were a student and

9 you were, you know, doing something, somebody
10 might have you as practicing medicine at that

11 point.
12
Whereas I, who supposedly knows more
13 about these different statutes, I would say

14 practicing medicine, you have to have a license
1 5 under 4731.4, and when you have that, you are
16 allowed to be practicing, blah, blah, blah. 17 So again, I think this probably was
18 something where, you know, it might even
-- you
1 9 might go through the minutes way back then and
20 find out if the Board says, this is what we
21 want, in terms of check out people's past

22 character and so forth.
I think there's
2 3 4731.08, that requires, I think, good moral
24 character.
2 5 licensure.
This was as a requirement for It's a grounds you can disapprove
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 55 of 91
Page 55
1 somebody.
I don't know what the case law is.
2 I know we can go after people solely on that, 3 but I'm pretty confident we threw it on there 4 on a few criminal convictions and so forth, and 5 said they didn't meet this, and this is part of 6 our denial process.
Q.
Were you aware of any time while
8 you've been with the Board that for foreign

9 endorsement licensure, that there was kind of a
11 practicing before they would get an Ohio
I can't recall.
If you could turn a few more pages to
16 Ohio Medical Board 14, it says, Resume of
17 Activities at the top?

18
19
Yes.
Q.
Is this a form you are familiar with
20 as part of the licensure application?
Yes.
Q.
22
It was required when you were
23 executive director?
Yes.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 56 of 91
Page 56
1 you are familiar with while you were with the
2 Board?
A.
Sure.
You know, you look for gaps in
4 time.
You look for why hasn't somebody been
5 working for, you know a year, oh, they were in

6 treatment for a year or they were in prison for
7 a year, you know.
It's amazing, but some
8 people leave out answers to some questions and

9 then they answer it this way and try to head
10 you around both ways, and they end up getting

11 caught in some type of false statement, for
12 whatever reason, and it is just pretty much

13 that.
It's something that you try to get a And
14 history of where that person was.
15 sometimes we would send letters, you know,
16 dating back so many years, you know, let's go

17 check on them.
Now, other things might prompt you to

19 look at the application and scratch your head
20 and say, well, instead of our normal two 21 letters and going back three years, this guy we
22 better go back five years and so forth.
23
And again, if you go over the
24 continuum of time and you say what was the
25 Medical Board doing in 1970 when they had 15

L,
. m t A y l l w ~ -r'.bara=:...itrt w ~ ~ 1a ..~l~ 2 rl1-.~
11111~~)r~116iRi41b~d - l1 4k U -~ . ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ i . ~ I I l i 1 1 ~ ~ - ~ ~ l t t ~ i lrldrtL)e*~k~#.illUlt.:~-.i-ii1iUL:kti~1trt1+-=. l l . ~ - ~ ~ ~ ~ . l ~ i ~ ~ ~ 1 ~ ~ 1 1 ~ - ~ . . . . a n r i l c U l x t ~ a 4 ~ * r ) h . ~ = ~
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 57 of 91
#
Page 57 1 employees, you know, or whatever, you know,

i
1
2 versus what they have today, there's probably a

3 good deal of difference in terms of what they
i:
4 can do, you know.
And technology, you know,
I
I
5 that in and of itself allows you to go back and
6 so forth.
So it's always been there.
I would
1: 11
7 say that it was used in different ways, you

8 know, at different times because of all those
:
f
L
9 other factors. 10
Q.
So obviously you don't know what the
E
d
11 policy in the '70s would have been for
12 verification of information on this form, and
I
!
13 it sounds like what you are saying is, at least 14 when you were executive director, there really
15 was no set policy as to what would or wouldn't
1
I
1
!
16 be verified from this form? 17

A.
Right.
So that if I said generally
18 the Medical Board looked at this applicant's
II
19 licensure, activities, and so forth, and I

20 would be speaking, my response would be, a
21 general response, we looked into it, or the
22 Medical Board looked into it and
1
1
I
--
but I
23 couldn't swear to the details, how far they
,
S
I
n
Il
24 looked into it.

25
Q.
Okay.
If you look last
-- not the
!I
i!
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 58 of 91
Page 58
1 very last, but towards the end, there's seven,
2 eight, nine pages that all look to be the same
3 but with different physician stamps at the

4 bottom left?
Correct.
Am I right in that these are members

7 of the Board that are signing off on this
8 particular applicant?
9
A.
Yes.
Certainly what it appears to
10 be.
And I recognize, you know, some names.
11 They weren't necessarily there when I was
12 there, but I've heard stories of different 13 people, yeah, heard names.
14 that.
Yeah, I recognize
So does the
-- well, this is
17 you were with the Board that for the granting
18 of an Ohio medical license, each Board member
19 checked off or signed off on each particular

20 applicant?
21
A.
Yeah.
And it's that way, you know, But the
22 today in somewhat of a different way.
1I 24 would be sent by staff, staff review these

23 Board does make a public motion where they
25 applications, and they met the legal
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 59 of 91
Page 59
1 requirements under whatever sections, and Board
2 says, you know, aye.
They don't necessarily go
3 through and X off, you know, each one, but they 4 would make that type of motion.
To the best of
5 my knowledge, that's still occurring.

6
Okay.
I'm going to hand you a
7 document that I've marked as Defendant's

8 Exhibit 61 and ask you to take a moment and 9 review this document, if you would.
10 11 Ken?
MR. BLANKENSHIP:
Did you skip 60,
MR. ZIRM:
Did I? Your last one is
MR. BLANKENSHIP:
15
16 happen.
17
MR. ZIRM:
I knew that would probably
I did, but I will get back to it.
THE WITNESS:
Okay.
Is it okay if I
18 just kind of glance over it?

19
20
Yes. MS. PFEIFFER: Is it okay if we take
21 a short break?
22 (A brief recess was taken.)
Q.
23
When
--
right before we broke,
24 Mr. Dilling, I handed you what has been marked
25 as Defendant's Exhibit 61, which is a copy of a
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 60 of 91
Page 60
1 letter sent to you September 6, 2002
-- which
2 purports to be a copy of a letter sent to you

3 on September 6, 2002.
You will see the copy we
4 have is redacted.
It doesn't indicate who the The first question
5 sender of the letter is.
6 is, can you confirm the receipt of this letter?
A.
Yeah.
I would say that that's within
8 the realm of the 4731.22 confidentiality 9 provision.
Okay. THE WITNESS: 12 13 yes. MS. PFEIFFER:
Am I correct?
I'm fine with that,
So basically you are asserting a

15 privilege not to answer that question
--
16
A.
Yes.
-- based on the statute?

Yeah. I'm sorry. Let me ask you if I can, 20 Mr. Blankenship asked you some questions about
21 Peter Heimlich.
22
Have you ever had a
conversation with Peter Heimlich that did not
23 have to do with the investigation of a

24
physician complaint?
A. I can't recall that.
25
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
*
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 61 of 91
.
Page 61 1 Did there ever come a time when you
2 learned
3
-- do you know who Peter Heimlich is?

I've been on the Internet, you know,
I have
b
I
A.
4 and I've read different things.
5 certainly seen that name plenty of times.
I'm
6 not limiting myself in that answer, I'm just

I
7 telling you I'm aware of public nature of

8 statements by a person purporting to be
9
Q.
--
And there have been, not just the
10 article in Scene but there have been articles 1 1 published in Cincinnati where Peter Heimlich is
5
I
12 identified, as well as his father Henry

.I
1 3 Heimlich.
I'm guessing you are aware of who
1 4 Henry Heimlich is?
15 16 Q.
Yes. Did there come a time that you became
17 aware of the fact that Peter Heimlich, at

i
1 8 various times, has used pseudonyms?
!
3
19
I have read that on the Internet,
'1
20 but you understand that I can't answer

21 questions of information I received pursuant to
I
i
22 an investigation.
I.
23
Q.
That's why I'm trying to ask them
24 rather broadly.
25
LH---II_-~
I'm just trying to help you guys out,

--.-
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
3
I
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 62 of 91
Page 62
1 to understand, to answer the best I can live
2 within the law.
So by virtue of my response, I
3 just want you to understand that it's not -4 it's limited to that context.
5
Q.
I don't want to waste anybody's time

If I went through this letter, which
6 here.
7 refers to other documents being sent to you or

8 other information being provided to you, if I
9 asked you to confirm any of those statements,

1 0 would you feel constrained to assert the 11 privileges based on the statute?
Yes, I would assert the privilege. Okay.
I would feel compelled to.

15
Q.
This is the one that was out of Let me hand you what has been marked as
16 order.
17 Exhibit 60, if you would. Okay. Yes.
Exhibit 60 purports to be a printout 20 of an e-mail from Kay Rieve to an undisclosed 21 recipient, subject Dr. Edward Patrick.
22 you seen this e-mail before?
Have
You know, again, I would have to be
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 63 of 91
1 me?
THE WITNESS:
3 a moment.
Let me think here just
If you will allow me to attempt to
4 answer and then tell me if I didn't answer your

5 question.
Sure.
Okay.
This to me, looking at it right now,

8 appears to be something that we would answer in
9 terms of a public records request or a request 10 from the public, of which I would want our
11
staff to, you know, answer.
And, of course, we
12 answer questions on a regular basis of people

13 that we don't know what their reasoning is for
14 requesting that public record information, but

1 5 we try to supply it because that's part of what
16 we do.
That's what this appears to be.
I do
1 7 not know, you know, for a fact who anybody is
18 here, who the requestor is, and so forth.

19
And I would say that, you know, in
20 terms of them asking me any type of question
21 where a public record document might be related

22 to a confidential allegation, you know, that
23 part of our investigatory file probably
24 contains things that other people know about,
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 64 of 91
I
.
Page 64
I feel compelled by the statute to
2 answer questions with respect to this document
3 on the basis of, you know, asking public record
4 information, whoever did this, you know, they

5 asked you this information, is it true,
6 whatever, you know, I'd be happy to try to help
7 you out on that.

8
But anything that tries to tie me
9 into where my knowledge stems from or when I

1 0 first saw this, it's possible that in the
11 course of Kay's day-to-day job, she didn't come

1 2 running to me, somebody asked a question about
13 Dr. Patrick, you know, and/or somebody asked me

14 a question about Dr. X or Dr. Y or Dr. 2 .
Dr.
15 Z may be a subject of investigation by the

16 Board.
She didn't have to come and tell me
17 each and every response she made.
So if Kay got an e-mail request for

19 information about a physician, she could, on
20 her own, answer the question?
Correct.
Or she does not have a law
2 2 degree but she has been in licensure for a good 2 3 period of time.
She has answered some, but she help construct this
might utilize staff

25 answer.
This may have been begun by her but
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
*
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 65 of 91
Page 65
1 had other people who helped her respond to this
2 request.
Okay.
But if it was a question that
4 was just asking for publicly available 5 information but it did have to do with a 6 physician that may be under investigation, it
7 wouldn't necessarily be -- that wouldn't
8 necessarily require her not to answer the
9 question; is that right?
Correct.
11
Correct.
Absolutely, yeah.
Q.
Well, given that -- one question, how
12 long has Kay Rieve been with the Board? 13 She, I think, pre-dates me, you know, You know, I
14 in '88, but I can't swear to that.
15 don't want to say that about poor Kay if that

16 wasn't the case.
But she's been there for,
17 let's say, a long period of time.
Okay.
19
A.
Not necessarily in this position.
20 She right now, since 2002, I think, is

2 1 administrator in the
-- overseeing the
22 licensure and records sections, and I don't 23 know if she still is that person, but that's
24 where she was when I was there and in 2002.
Looking at the first sentence of the
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 66 of 91
Page 66
1 second paragraph of this e-mail, the Board did
2 not require primary source verification for

3 every entry on the physician's resume or even
4 the post-graduate training in 1976.
Do you
5 agree with that statement, or do you have any

6 knowledge whether that's an accurate statement
7 or not?
8
Yeah.
I would rather say that I
9 can't answer that for sure because I wasn't
10 around in 1976. Okay. You know, I could give you my guess, 13 but it would be more of a guess at this point. That's fine.
I might have known sometime in the
16 past, you know what I'm telling you?
You know,
17 I may have been involved enough to answer that

18 question more articulately a couple years ago,
19 but right now -20

Q.
You don't remember everything you
21 ever learned?
Yeah, exactly.
I would not be good
23 on that show with the fifth graders.
My
24 three-year-old gets me, what am I talking

25 about?
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
I
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 67 of 91
Page 6 7 Do you know who Phil Heimlich is? Yes. Are you personally acquainted with
4 Phil Heimlich?
Never met him, never talked to him.

I guess that would have been my next
7
question. A.
You never talked to Phil Heimlich? No. Never corresponded, communicated
i
1
9 in any way.
10
1
I
Does the Board treat -- is there a
11 requirement that a complainant identify 12 themselves? 13 14
No. Does the Board treat anonymous
15 complaints differently than other complaints?

16
A.
You know, again, that's a broad

,
\ L
17 question.
We will accept anonymous complaints.
18 Obviously when you complain anonymously, it 19 makes the job a lot more difficult, and so
I 1
20 there is a bit of question about credibility

2 1 sometimes too, but that is dependent upon what
22 information we are presented and so forth.
And
,
23 so by way of differently, I think that there is

24 potential differences, but we don't throw it
i
?
I
25 into an anonymous pile and say open it and

t
' ~ - ~ ~ ~ ~ - . L L J * - I = . . - - I ~ L - I - - - - T A ~ ~ .
1
-.a+.-Hw~=~tt.tt
1111
I..~Ic.-A+*+~+P--= ..IC~~~*II
_aaaII
uwis~ir-
* r w u e : . ~ .n**c.=z:y ~
..ii>l~tlUn~irt=---~HUI)~rrr~~:~~.~-~.r-.-r~~~
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
b
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 68 of 91
Page 68
1 close it type of deal.
One of the differences might be with

3 an anonymous complaint, it might be more
4 important for you to get corroborating 5 information from other sources?
Correct. Do you know Gary Harris? I've heard the name, but again, you
9 know, in my position with the Board, positions
10 over time, you can throw out some names at me 11 that I recognize and are in the health care 12 field and that person would say, oh, Tom 13 Dilling, I know Tom Dilling, and again, I wish 14 I had my three-year-old's ability to recall 15 names and that, but I'm sorry that I don't
16 necessarily.
That's all right.
Maybe this will
18 spur your recollection.
I've handed you what's
19 been marked Exhibit Number 62 and ask if you 20 would take a look at that, if you would.
Okay. This purports to be a copy of or a

23 printout of an e-mail from Gary Harris to
24 complaint@active.ws with a number of cc's, 25 including Tom.Dilling@med.state.oh.us.
Was
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 69 of 91
Page 69 1 that your address at the Board?

A.
Yes. It's dated September 19, 2003, and Do
4 discusses Dr. Patrick at Jewish Hospital.
5 you recall receiving a copy of this e-mail?
A.
I think that, again, it may be in
7 that amorphus area of confidential
-- well, no,
8 I don't think it was amorphus.
I think I'm
9 compelled not to answer based upon the
10 confidentiality provision in 4731.22. 11

Q.
You would take that position even
12 though it doesn't appear to be information you

13 were seeking or that the Board was seeking?
14
A.
It doesn't -- there are a lot of
15 things that may not appear to you or to anyone 16 else on any individual matter to be something 17 that the Board was involved in or interested 18 in, and I can't really tell you that that was 19 the case in here, but I think that the nature 20 of what is being asked, and I specifically
21 refer to like fraudulent, you know, and so
22 forth, that is kind of what is backing me off 23 from responding. 24

I think that it's different, at least
25 in my mind here, from this e-mail exchange in
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 70 of 91
Page 70
1 the sense that this is asking for like an
2 interpretation of, you know, what the law is.

3
4
( Indicating. )
Now, this other one is talking about
5 potential fraud and, you know, evidence and 6 things like that, so I'm backing off even 7 further from attempting to answer that based 8 upon the privilege.
Q.
Okay. Right.
So just, again, I'm just --
11
I'm not -- I don't mean to beat a
12 dead horse but, for the record, you feel

13 compelled not to answer questions about Exhibit 14 6 2 because of the privilege and the statute, 15 correct? 16 A.
Correct.
If you were to ask me some
17 type of general question about the law and how 18 it applies that may have sparked your interest 19 through some type of e-mail like that, I'd be
20 glad to help you, if I can. Let me just ask whether this document
22 refreshes your recollection as to whether you
23 know Gary Harris.
24
A.
1'11 just tell you same as before.
25 I'm looking at a document that says Gary
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 71 of 91
Page 71
1 Harris, General Counsel, Health Alliance of
2 Greater Cincinnati.
3 Alliance.
I'm aware of the Health
Over of the course of my career, I
4 probably dealt with him on occasion, but he's

5 not somebody who I had on my Rolodex, not
6 somebody who I would call up necessarily and

7 say, hey, Gary, you know, can you help me out,
8 you know, in such and such a matter or
9 whatever.
Can you tell me -- I've got to ask,

11 can you tell me whether the State Medical Board
12
ever obtained Dr. Patrick's file from Jewish
13 Hospital?
I can't tell you.
And, again, that's based on

16 privilege?
Based on privilege, yeah.

MS. PFEIFFER:
Can I just interject?
19 So we are clear, when you use the term 20 privilege, I'm not sure it's --
21
22 23
24
MR. ZIRM:
That may not be exactly
right. THE WITNESS: statute.

MS. PFEIFFER:
The confidentiality
Right.
That's fine if
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
1
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 72 of 91
.
Page 72
1 you use privilege, so long as we are all on the
:
I
t
2 same page.
3
Do you know Mike Bowen? Yes.

$
Q.
Have you ever had conversations with
6 Mike Bowen in a non-medical Board investigatory 7 setting?
A.
Yes. Did you consider any mention of a
10 physician to be a potential complaint when you
11 were executive director of the Board?

12
13
A.
No. There has
-- well, strike that. Did
14 Mike Bowen ever mention Dr. Patrick to you in

?
15 passing, not in a complaint sense but in 16 passing? 17

18
A.
You know, I can't recall. I'm going to ask you some more
I
I
i
I
19 questions about your contact with Tom Francis
20 of Scene.
I'm going to hand you what has been

5
21 marked as Exhibit 63.
I'll represent to you
22 that Mr. Francis has been deposed in this case,
23 and on behalf of Scene and Francis we produced
24 some documents, which include what Mr. Francis 25 has testified to, and these are transcripts of
~rlrr-u*ur~2~-1~~ku;ku;tt11~~~--M-rM1~FL~<hhLtll-I~:Jx.n
I.~l(llll.
'
&
*lllllkl0-(kr-IP*?I%2tIf12l.
I l i l r r ~ lJEW-WP*-
'2-
I . ' . ~ ~ . * . . I I A dd-+--i L ~
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 73 of 91
.
1 his notes.
Page 7 3
I
4
Okay. And this is a page that I've taken 4 from the transcription of his notes.
I 1
Okay. Which purports to be notes of a

7 conversation he had with you.
i
I
f
I
I
Just with that
8 context, I will ask you if you would review it.
A.
Sure.
Could you tell me, is this
I
1
10 supposedly taking place prior to his writing of 11 the article? 12 tell me?
i
Would that be okay for you to
13
I 'm not su.rewe know that.
They
:i
t
1
I I
14 weren't dated.
15
MR. BLANKENSHIP:
1 think this is
I
16 part of Francis' investigation for the article.

17 1 8 so. THE WITNESS:
Yes.
I would assume
19
MR. ZIRM:
Yes, he did testify that

r
20 the notes were taken prior to publication of
21 the article.
22 23 THE WITNESS:
Okay.
Q.
My first question is, Mr. Dilling,
24 does this at all refresh your recollection of
i
1
I
I
I I
25 your conversation with Tom Francis?

. r
"
-- .
..
,A___
..-.
"
I
3
>
>r
,, . ,
rni'ir
~-l*n*,vb.it&
h~;nhh*..,lil---.-.------
& ~ * ~ - - L U : T ---I1 Y ~ Y . Y ~ L
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 74 of 91
>
Page 74 It helps a little bit. I mean, I
;
I
2 would say generally speaking, it sounds like

t
3 the type of conversation that we would have had
4 or we did have with respect to it.
I think
t
5 it's consistent with the answers that I gave

6 here today.
i
I
I
In looking through it, it's hard
7 to gauge the context without seeing, you know,

i
8 the specific back and forth and the dialogue.

9
10
Q
A.
Right. And what he is writing down as what
i
I I
11 I'm saying might
--
I'm saying might
--
be more
I I
L
5
12 of what he is adding up in his mind, not

13 necessarily exactly how I answered the
14 question.
Q.
i
i
Okay.
And I guess that leads to a
16 question, is there anything here that he has 17 written down that purports to be what you've
18 said that sounds like it's way off base or
19 something that you definitely wouldn't have
Well, excuse me.
I would say that
22 you can see -- you get a feel from the article 23 as well
-- that I was very cautious about what

You kind of get the feeling
24 I was saying.
25 that's what I'm doing because I've done it for
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
c
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 75 of 91
.
1 20 years now, you know, and so it's a constant
Page 7 5
2 fight between my running my mouth and my legal

3 training and knowing what the laws are and my
4 St. Ignatius training as to you got to play by
5 the rules and so forth.
So I do that to the
6 greatest extent possible, and I hope that that
7 comes out.
8
Now, you know, like when you get down
9 to where it says I'm having trouble convincing

10 the hospital in this case to produce proof of a 11 residency, I'm assuming that's what he said --
12
I believe that's correct.

--
not me.
If that's the case, hey,
14 I have no problem with that statement.
15
Q.
Okay. This thing at the very top that has
17 been cut off, to get into the state for
18 licensure, I tell you we looked into something

19 like that and found it didn't matter, because
20 in 1976 you didn't need a residency training
21 for criteria for licensure.
When I say we
22 looked into something like that, I'm guessing
23 that that means looked into generally about

24 licensure.
Okay.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 76 of 91
Page 76 But not like, oh, so I'm asking you

2 about Dr. X or Dr. Y, you know, we looked into
3 that.
It doesn't go or doesn't fit with the
4 rest of the context. Right. So that again you read words

7 differently and so forth.
That's how I
8 recollect things and that's how I think I
9 conduct business, you know.
The rest of this,
10 again, I just read it once but nothing jumps 11 out at me. 12

Q.
Okay.
Did Tom Francis tell you he
13 was looking into Dr. Patrick's background? 14
A.
You know, I'm assuming so, based upon
15 what I'm reading here and based upon that 16 article and, you know, my recollection, you
17 know, to the best of my ability, that he did
18 ask me questions, which got specific to names

19 of physicians.
Without saying, hey, Dr. P or
20 Dr., you know, X, Y, or doctors who are under
21 investigation or were under investigation, I'll

22 tell you that he, like many other reporters,
23 probably did ask me some questions, and they

24 get tired of me answering, reporters
25 especially -- you guys get paid for it, that's
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 77 of 91
Page 7 7
1 part of your job -- but reporters say, Tom,
2 okay, you can just tell me you can't talk about

3 it. 4
You know, because I do go -- if they
5 ask me questions about generally, I will try to
6 help them understand the context of the article

7 in which they are writing, because I think that 8 helps the Board out, it helps the public, it 9 helps the Board do its job, fulfill its purpose
10 by doing that.
And, quite frankly, over my
11 20-year career, that's paid off more than not,
12 you know, in terms of I think people, reporters

13 or whatever, who come in very speculative of
14 how the Board operates and to what degree they
15 are trying to do their job and so forth, but

16 while I'm not the most articulate person in the
17 world, I do convey the Board's, I believe, the

18 Board's sense of purpose and desire to get at
19 the truth and to do their job.
It sounds like you've had -- part of

21 your job for a long time at the Board was
22 dealing with t h e press, answering reporters'
23 questions; is that fair to say?

24
A.
You know, there was somebody who It was
25 dealt w i t h t h e p r e s s more than I did.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 78 of 91
Page 7 8
1 more their job, but I was involved in a number 2 of high profile cases over the years because
3 there weren't that many of us, you know, at
4 that time, and being involved in Board's
5 rule-making is what -- was somewhat started 6 because of disciplinary matters and because of 7 my role at the government that, yeah, I had a 8 relationship with, you know, a number.
And then when I was director, they 10 don't want to talk to the person who talks to
I
1
11 the press, they want to put Tom on there and

12 put him in front of the TV, which I really,
13 much as it looks like I like to talk,
14 I didn't like that part of it, but I did it.

15 And, again, I did it in this type of fashion 16 and think more often than not that it paid off,
17 you know, for the Board because people, you
18 know -- I would attempt to answer the 19 questions.
Do you have an understanding of what
1 21 it means when you talk to a reporter off the

22 record?
I know generally what that means,

24 yeah.
I don't think that there ever really is
25 a true off the record, but I think that you can
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 79 of 91
Page 79
1 get a relationship with somebody or you get a
2 feel for the person and you can say something,

3 but I think that those cases would be very rare 4 and it's a very delicate position to be in to 5 maintain the confidentiality and say something
6 that's off the record.
You know, it's very
7 difficult and it would be hard for me to recall

8 doing that.
Do you recall whether any part of
10 your conversation with Mr. Francis before the 11 publication of the article was off the record? 12
A.
No.
I can't imagine talking to
13 somebody who I never, you know, met or talked
14 to before going off the record.
And again, I
15 don't know of what context I could go off the

16 record without getting -- now I'm assuming a 17 certain type of question. There may well have
18 been something that he wanted to ask that I

19 would have answered in more of a general, you
20 know, term.
Say somebody -- I don't want to be
21 quoted in terms of how the Board dealt with

22 licensure matters in the 1970s, so that I say
23 well, can we go off the record now?
I
To me,
24 that means this isn't going to show up as a

25 quote from me or isn't going to be a part of
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 80 of 91
Page 80
1 that article.
And if I think -- sometimes if I
3 think that somebody is just being led in a 4 certain direction or is just stuck on that and 5 I think that perhaps I can convince them in 6 some way that that's not the case, I will; so 7 is it possible? And again, I don't recollect
8 this, but is it possible he said something or I 9 wanted to say something to the effect of, look,
10 just generally, do you know how difficult it

11 would be to go back and prove something 30 12 years after the fact about a residency program, 13 that would be tough to get them to understand 14 what a residency program was, that I don't even 15 understand that, and turn that into a fraud
16 case.
I might say something like that to
17 somebody.
18
19
(2
Off the record? Off the record, yeah. Gosh, I might
20 say that to somebody on the record, depending 21 on the context, you know, if somebody threw 22 some quotes at me that, you know, I didn't
23 believe were true or that were reflective of,

24 you know, what was going on, I might make that
25 choice to say, you know, you got to understand
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
a
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 81 of 91
1 this, this is where it's coming from.
You know, but again, in short, I 4 can't recall doing that here. Possible, you don't remember? Right, correct. Okay.
Now, I think in response to
8 Mr. Blankenship's question, I thought I heard 9 you say you saw the article sometime after it
10 came out but you're not sure how it was brought
11 to your attention? Correct. Do you know whether you actually saw
14 the newspaper itself?
No, I did not.

16 knowledge, I did not.
To the best of my
You know, to the best of
17 my recollection, I think that I generally, when

18 I talk to reporters for a while, I will say,
19 you are writing an article, can you send me a

20 copy?
I'm guessing that whether it be e-mail
21 or per a phone call to the Board saying you can

22 get it on the web or you can do that, that was
23 it.
I do kind of recall my brother, who lives
24 up in Cleveland, telling me, hey, I saw this 25 Cleveland Scene thing with the Medical Board or
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 82 of 91
Page 82
1 whatever.
But, yeah, he probably didn't even
2 read it.
3
I don't recall it being a big deal.

You indicated that you at least
4 contemplated writing something in response, 5 like a letter to the editor kind of thing?
6
Yes .
Q
8 that?
What did you contemplate including in
Well, again, I will go back to my
10 guttural reaction, or whatever, after reading

11 this, you know, the article, and, you know,
12 this is my opinion, and it's somebody who was 13 the director of the Board and it was somebody
14 who had given their entire post-graduate
15 career, I guess, to the Board, and certainly 16 you can say I'm a true believer, because while
17 I don't necessarily agree that the Medical

18 Board has ever taken -- or how they go about
19 it, I believe in it, I believe in their system,
20 I believe where they are coming from and their

21 good intent.
22
And so when I see that, a title that
23 says, Playing Doctor, Lying on a Resume Isn't a
24 Crime - except when a doctor does it; luckily

25 for Edward Patrick, the Ohio Medical Board is
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
P
1 -4
D
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 83 of 91
Page 8 3
1 forgiving, to me, that's not just a shot at me,
2 who's the director, you know, I take that more

3 as I am working for them, the Board and the
4 public, you know, it's a public agency, the
5 governor, you know, everybody, and when 6 somebody says that, and I know that the Board 7 is kind of counter to that in terms of how they
8 view falsification, you know, then yeah, I
9 don't think that the correct message has been 10 sent out, and so I want to correct that
11 message.
That's Tom Dilling.
I want to
12 correct it. And so, yeah, I think my first

14 reaction was even after reading this thing,
15 it's like I don't think that's what this whole
16 article is about, yet, you know, by cutlines 17 and the headlines and so forth, you can create, 18 I understand that, a different sense, and it 19 sells papers or it draws readers1 attention.
20 And perhaps that is the point that the author
21 wants to, you know, make most prominent;

22 although I would say that he shouldn't bury it
23 down into the article somewhere.
Journalism
24 tells me, hit your first thing right off the

25 bat, because I might not make it eight
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 84 of 91
Page 84
1 paragraphs into the article, especially one of
2 this length.
He knows his readership and so
3 forth. Anyways -4
So the headline you thought was
5 taking a shot at the Board?
A.
Right.
And then, of course, the
7 purported quote and putting me in quotes and so

8 forth, well, like I can -- maybe I need to give 9 my quotes to what I think about this.
But
10 then, you know, other people are paid to, I 11 guess, calm Tom down and, you know, let him 12 think about this and also, you know, say, 13 again, I started off with the counsel of you
14 don't get into the boobie hatch with the

15 boobies.
That's something said to me all the You know, it's not maybe a
16 time, it seems.
17 winnable fight, you know, and you are not going
18 to convince somebody who has already gone to

19 this degree, so I chose not to.
20
Q.
If you could turn to the fourth page

I'm
21 where the quote is attributed to you.

22 looking on page four of seven here.
Have you got four of seven? 24 four of five.
I have
We have different versions.
25 am assuming they are the same thing.
I have
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 85 of 91
Page 85
1 pictures on mine.
Yours is smaller type.
If you can find your quote for me.
Sure.
Purported quote, yeah.
Purported quote. Yes. I've got it.
Q.
But according to Heimlich, Dilling
7 said that, quote - -
Yes.
9
Q.
If you could go up a couple of
10 paragraphs ahead of that -Sure 12

(2
-- where it says, "the Board is
13 heralded as one of the nation's most stringent
14 medical regulators, filing more actions against

15 doctors than the Board of any other populus
16 state."
Is that an accurate statement, to your
17 understanding?
18
A.
Yeah.
It was then, and it probably Of course, the rankings, you
19 still is today.
20 know, vary a little bit, but the one national
21 organization that p u r p o r t s to kind of be a

22 watchdog over Medical Boards and gives their
23 own statistics is the Ralph Nader group, the

24 citizen action group.
And during my tenure
25 there, the Board was in the top ten of their
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 86 of 91
Page 86
1 rankings and was ranked as for number of

2 licensees, let's say, over 15,000 or 20,000 or
3 whatever, as the top of the board in terms of
4 disciplinary actions. 5
Now, just like anything, you can look
6 at it different ways, and their rating system

7 was a little different than even the Federation 8 of State Medical Board's system, but that's
9 what I think that that's talking about.

Okay. The next paragraph, which is
11 just one sentence, says, "he," referring to 12 Peter Heimlich, "had several long conference 13 calls with Dilling and Mark Michael, an
14 attorney with the Ohio Attorney General's
15 Office."
16
Is that a true statement? That goes into, I think, where I was
A.
17 earlier with the confidentiality provision, 18 which would preclude me from answering those
19 type of questions, that one specifically.
Forgive me if Mr. Blankenship asked 21 you this question, but a few paragraph down, it
22 says, "because the Medical Board complaints are 23 confidential --
Yes.
--
Dilling won't discuss Patrick or
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 87 of 91
1 even confirm that an investigation occurred,"
2 and then the next sentence, "but Dilling did

3 say that in 1976, the year that Patrick should 4 have completed his residency, post-graduate
5 training was not a requirement for licensure"?

Uh-huh.
Do you recall telling Francis that?

Yeah. And I think that was reflected
9 in the conversation that you showed me, those 10 notes. That seemed reflective of our
11 discussion, as best I can recall.
12
Q.
The next sentence says, still, the
13 Board can pull the license of any physician who
14 publishes false credentials.

15 statement?
Is that a true
16
It's a very general statement.
17 would say generally it was true.
The Board has
18 a grounds for discipline that says you -19 physicians shall not make a false, fraudulent,
20 or misleading statement.
And then there are,
21 you know, within certain context, there is some

22 case law which is improving - - there was a case
23 that kind of got more into the intent of
24 things.
I would say that in my career, there

$
2 5 was a case where I thought that was a true
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 88 of 91
Page 88
1 statement but the court said otherwise.
So, you know, what I am saying, there
3 are always particularities within the law that

4 would limit that general statement.
Okay. Say somebody makes a typo or whatever

7 but it changes some type of substantive or 8 arguable substantive issue --
Sure.
-- then the court and the Board, when
11 they are exerting their discretion, is going to 12 look into it and say, what did the guy get out
13 of this?
You know, so t.hatlswhere I think the
14 intent -- you know, I always thought that's

15 where the intent came in.
When Mr. Francis talked to you before 17 the publication of the article, if he had asked 18 you about specific - - whether you had 19 conversations with Peter Heimlich about Dr. 20 Patrick or specific things that you and Peter
21 Heimlich may have talked about, would you have

22 answered him?
A.
No, I wouldn't have answered in a
24 direct fashion. 25 did today.
I would have answered like I
Again, I would have answered
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 89 of 91
1 dependent -- you know, there may be a point
2 where I wouldn't have answered, but depending

3 on what he asked and how he asked it or what he 4 threw at me, I would attempt -- I may attempt 5 to answer in a fashion that I guess we learn in 6 law school. 7
Q.
Okay.
MS. PFEIFFER:
9 informative.
10
Non-responsive but
MR. R .J. BLANKENSHIP :
I'm going to
11 write that one down,
12
Prior to today, have you ever met Dr.
13 P a t r i c k ?
No, not that I'm aware of.

15
MR. ZIRM:
That's all the questions I
16 have for you for now.

18
No follow-up.
MS. PFEIFFER:
I would suggest you
19 read if it's transcribed, that you read it to
20 look for errors and correct it.
THE WITNESS:
Okay.
(The deposition was concluded at 3:12 p.m.)
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 90 of 91
Page 90
I, THOMAS D I L L I N G , do h e r e b y c e r t i f y 2 that the foregoing is a true and accurate

3 transcription of my testimony.
Dated - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 120
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 91 of 91
Page 91
1 STATE OF OHIO
2 COUNTY OF GREENE
3
SS: CERTIFICATE
I, Melissa A. Neary, a Notary Public
4 within and for the State of Ohio, duly

5 commissioned and qualified, 6
DO HEREBY CERTIFY that the
7 above-named THOMAS DILLING, was by me first 8 duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole 9 truth and nothing but the truth; that said
10 testimony was reduced to writing by me

11 stenographically in the presence of the witness
12 and thereafter reduced to typewriting. 13
I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a
14 relative or Attorney of either party nor in any
15 manner interested in the event of this action.

16
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto
17 set my hand and seal of office at Xenia, Ohio, 18 on this

19
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
day of
, 2007.
MELISSA A. NEARY NOTARY PUBLIC, STATE OF OHIO My commission expires 8/9/2011

Deposition by Former OH Medical Board Executive Director Thomas Dilling, Edward A. Patrick MD PHD v. Cleveland Scene Et Al (4/17/07)

Uploaded by

Document Information

Original Description:

Original Title

Copyright

Available Formats

Share this document

Share or Embed Document

Sharing Options

Did you find this document useful?

Is this content inappropriate?

Copyright:

Available Formats

Deposition by Former OH Medical Board Executive Director Thomas Dilling, Edward A. Patrick MD PHD v. Cleveland Scene Et Al (4/17/07)

Uploaded by

Copyright:

Available Formats

Case I :05-cv-02791-LW

CASE NO. 1:05 CV 2791

CLEVELAND SCENE PUBLISHING, LLC, et al., Defendants .

Columbus, Ohio, on Tuesday, April 17,

On behalf of the Plaintiff: Monohan

Page 4 ; (Defendants1 Exhibit Numbers 57

Would you please state your name,

10 sir? Sure. It's Thomas A., middle

12 initial, Dilling, D I L L I N G. And your counsel is Barbara Pfeiffer,

14 and she had something to put on the record.

I'm an assistant attorney general

17 working for Attorney General Marc Dann.

19 Thomas Dilling in his capacity as the former

Prior to the beginning of the

23 questioning, I thought it might be helpful just

25 think might be relevant to today's proceeding.

2 having the opportunity to have read the amended

3 complaint in the matter.

What I wanted to indicate in the

6 the Medical Practices Act, 4731. (I?) (5) that

7 basically cloaks the Medical Board

10 the Board pursuant to an investigation is

11 confidential and not subject to discovery in

And the next sentence goes

13 on to state, the Board shall conduct all

14 investigations and proceedings in a matter that

I'm going to end the reading directly

I just throw that out there,

20 gentlemen, so you are aware of that.

21 sure exactly where all the questioning will be

I am going to, if I feel it's

23 necessary, object where appropriate and if Tom

I appreciate you letting me have this

Currently it's adjudication

7 coordinator. For? State Board of Nursing. In October of 2004, were you in a

It was the executive director of the

And what were your job

18 responsibilities as the executive director of

19 the State Medical Board?

Well, I oversaw a staff of, geez, 70

21 to 80 persons, Board license and disciplines,

22 doctors, massage therapists, and other kinds of

allied health providers.

We had about 50,000

24 licensees, and I'm responsible for that.

In short. Okay. So if a complaint came to you

Yes, Would you tell us about your

8 educational background, please? 9 A. Well, do you want to go back to high

I'm from Cleveland.

14 St. Ignatius High School.

15 1984 -- I'm sorry -- 1980, and then I went to

Then I went And

19 to Ohio State law school from '84 to ' 8 7 .

20 then in, I think, around February of '88 is

So you were with the State

23 Medical Board from February of 1988 until when?

It was about, I think, May, 2005. Okay.

1 position with the Board of Nursing?

I guess -- I know you are

4 aware that we are here relative to the case of

10 some questions about the information that was

11 obtained from you in relationship to that