Print Page - Small Powerhouses and Old School

28/08/13
Print Page - Small powerhouses and old school
The Cal-look Lounge

Cal-look/High Performance => Pure racing => Topic started by: BeetleBug on November 27, 2007, 11:12:11 AM
Title: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on November 27, 2007, 11:12:11 AM Inspired by the old school cal look engine thread and after seeing the Kris Klingaman thread I felt like starting a own mouse engine discussion. OK, I asked in the other thread if it is possible to reach the 100hp/l limit without having to spend a fortune and I have received info that this is impossible to reach - especially if you want a true street engine. IS IT? It`s quite obvious that Kris Klingaman`s engine was a pure race engine with a compression of 14.5:1 but what else did he do so correct to manage to push a close to stock weight car into the 11`s with a 1750ccm engine? This is just as fast and even faster than most 2,3`s out there today. WHY WAS A GUY FASTER BACK THEN USING A MOUSE ENGINE THAN MOST GUYS ARE TODAY? With the WWW, info available everywhere and plenty of shops offering high power stuff we should be going faster, agree? Or has all the info/parts available made us loose the ability to "think out of the box". Or is not "thinking out of the box" the answer? Maybe we`re heading in the wrong direction and is building engines that is not as close to their full potential compared to what they built "back then?" And what makes a engine old school? Bolting on period correct parts? For me a truly old school engine is a engine that has been built the way they did it back then. When know how was important, the parts where hard to come by and creativity was necessary to be a little bit faster than your competitor. Best rgs BB
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: LGK on November 27, 2007, 12:44:31 PM WHY WAS A GUY FASTER BACK THEN USING A MOUSE ENGINE THAN MOST GUYS ARE TODAY?[/ What tells you this statement is true and proven? Watch out for 2008...even before we had 1776cc engines reving to the moon and making at least 180hp AND being reliable ... I'm sure there will be some other guys chime in on this... "thinking out of the box" the answer is INDEED the key to succes ::) Regards Steve Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Fastbrit on November 27, 2007, 12:52:04 PM
Q uote from : Be e tle Bug on Nove m be r 27, 2007, 11:12:11 AM WHY WA S A GUY FA STER BA CK THEN USING A MOUSE ENGINE THA N MOST GUYS A RE TODA Y?
Two words: grenade motors! Talking with many of the 'old guys' (like I'm young... ::)), we tend to forget that many of the fast mouse-motored cars had engines which lived on (and frequently exceeded) the limit. Catastrophic engine failures were not uncommon. Don't underestimate the fact that there are far more 11-second true street cars around today than ever before because engine technology has moved on and parts are so readily available. Yes, we could go even faster by building engines that are on the edge all the time, but who wants to be sweeping up parts and rebuilding broken motors every weekend? One big reason the old motors did produce a lot of horsepower for their size was down to superior head work. When you didn't have a range if aftermarket heads to choose from, there was no option but to extract the maximum from factory 311 castings. Head porters like Fumio Fukaya and Dean Lowry were capable of such work and today there are others, but few people choose to go down that route any more. Why? It's too easy (and far cheaper) to buy some off the shelf heads from someone like CB that will make good hp. I bet if you paid someone like Fumio (or Jeff Denham) the FULL rate (and don't underestimate the number of hours it takes to do a good job) for doing a set of dynamite 311 heads, you'd be amazed at how much you'd get out of a small motor. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on November 27, 2007, 13:25:33 PM Hi Steve, What tells you this statement is true and proven? It was meant as a question but that said I have still not heard or read about a small engine going into the 11`s like Klingaman. Looking at certain lists and our All Time Top Racers list I notice that the smallest engine is Ole Endlers 2110ccm with a 11.5 ET. It`s indeed interesting to read about the 1776ccm making at least 180hp. This is exactly what I want to discuss in this thread - what has been done SO correct with this engine to make it both powerful and reliable? Questions to you, is it a street engine with cooling and running on pump gas? Best rgs BB
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on November 27, 2007, 13:45:12 PM
Q uote from : Fastbrit on Nove m be r 27, 2007, 12:52:04 PM [gre nade m otors! C atastrophic e ngine failure s we re not uncom m on.
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I'm quite sure we can buy parts today that would have blown the Old Guys brains out when it comes to what RPMs they can withstand, Today we can have lighter pistons with lesser drag, stronger and lighter con-rods and so on and the valve train can be lightened like never before. The only thing I can see being the problem with such a engine today is the KNOWHOW, it's hard to come by.. and its the most important ingredients. ;)
Q uote from : Fastbrit on Nove m be r 27, 2007, 12:52:04 PM Don't unde re stim ate the fact that the re are far m ore 11-se cond true stre e t cars around today than e ve r be fore be cause e ngine te chnology has m ove d on and parts are so re adily available .
This is absolutely true... (I guess, I wasn't around :)) But the litre effect is way down, not to many engines putting out significantly more than 100 horse pr liter. If Klingaman stretched his mouse to 8000 (I don't know), he is in the same rpm segment as many other street/strip racers...
Q uote from : Fastbrit on Nove m be r 27, 2007, 12:52:04 PM It's too e asy (and far che ape r) to buy som e off the she lf he ads from som e one lik e C B that will m ak e good hp. I be t if you paid som e one lik e Fum io (or Je ff De nham ) the FULL rate (and don't unde re stim ate the num be r of hours it tak e s to do a good job) for doing a se t of dynam ite 311 he ads, you'd be am aze d at how m uch you'd ge t out of a sm all m otor.
If no one supports these guys, we are actually going back in performance step by step as the know-how is lost. Cal-look/vw tuning has become a spectator sport it seems, thinking inside the box is the norm, and when you think about it, the California look would not have existed if those early boys just copied what guys had done years before. I bet they also heard their fathers saying "don't waste your money boy!" "The adventure is outside the box!" ;) Thats why I like Monkey Boys intiative with his mouse motor quest
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: richie on November 27, 2007, 15:46:08 PM The internet killed it,its too easy to just copy someone elses recipe now to get a reliable engine that will run 12s and with a bit of work 11s.The fact that it was all trial and error back then,you only read about the succesfull cars & combos,I am sure that to every 11second mouse motor there were a 100 broken ones :o There are a few hardy people that I know running 12s with less than 1800cc and driving them to the track and back,always on regular pump gas,no fiberglass panels,real steel cars,so it can be done.But i am sure they will keep the specs to themselves as its takes time & effort to achieve this. cheers richie,uk "If your not breaking parts your not trying hard enough" Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: stealth67vw on November 27, 2007, 16:12:42 PM Another thing that helps is the gear box. Kris Klingaman and Mike Smith both used 4.86 ring and pinions and something like 1.70 3rd and 1.31 4th. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: The Ideaman on November 27, 2007, 17:44:08 PM This is absolutely true... (I guess, I wasn't around Smiley) But the litre effect is way down, not to many engines putting out significantly more than 100 horse pr liter. If Klingaman stretched his mouse to 8000 (I don't know), he is in the same rpm segment as many other street/strip racers... More like 9500 rpm. 4.86x1.31x26" tire at 9500rpm is about 115mph. These weren't street cars, but highly strung race motors in full weight cars. I remember A/MC and B/MC cars at englishtown as a kid. (http://www.turbocreations.com/fj20/philske20corolla/ke20karpathioss1b.jpg) I know it isn't a VW, but does anybody remember this car competing? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jim Ratto on November 27, 2007, 18:05:27 PM
Q uote from : richie ,uk on Nove m be r 27, 2007, 15:46:08 PM The inte rne t k ille d it,its too e asy to just copy som e one e lse s re cipe now to ge t a re liable e ngine that will run 12s and with a bit of work 11s.The fact that it was all trial and e rror back the n,you only re ad about the succe sfull cars & com bos,I am sure that to e ve ry 11se cond m ouse m otor the re we re a 100 brok e n one s :o The re are a fe w hardy pe ople that I k now running 12s with le ss than 1800cc and driving the m to the track and back ,always on re gular pum p gas,no fibe rglass pane ls,re al ste e l cars,so it can be done .But i am sure the y will k e e p the spe cs to the m se lve s as its tak e s tim e & e ffort to achie ve this. che e rs richie ,uk "If your not bre ak ing parts your not trying hard e nough"
I agree richie....thank you for posting this. Every "hot rod" VW featured in the mags seems to have the "internet motor" recipe...94 x 82 or 94 x 84, FK8, CB CNC heads, 48IDAs, MSD everything...etc. I remember how "amazed" some naysayers were about a few of the smaller motors I helped out with. SODA's pump gas, stock-valved 1679, 14.70 on radials, full stock weight car, stock gears raised some eyebrows. Motor ran 40IDFs with 32mm vents. Roger's guys @ Heads Up did the stock valve heads, very conservative porting, SS valves, Bryan ran tall CB manifolds. Cam was like Engle 120 with 1.25's. If we would have gone something like 125, and 48IDAs and half a point more compression, I think it would have gone 13's. I helped screw together a 1776 built with mostly used extras that were collecting spiders and dust, old FI case, Engle 125, 1.25 rockers, Fred Simpson 40 x 35 heads, 48IDAs, old 1-3/4 header. Went 13.01 off trailer in lightened '66 with slicks. Same car with 1914, FK10, 42 x 37 welded 10.5:1 went 12.81. As far as motors today, if guys wanted to build 149 cu in motors (2.3+L) on the ragged edge for the street, built to the same tune level as KK's motor...personally I think you'd need much larger valves to squeeze 100hp+/liter, meaning moving valves in VW heads or going route of aftermarket castings and having them modified accordingly. Big 560cc+ cylinders are going to want a lot more mixture than 440cc cylinders to run 8000rpm and make 100/liter. Or go the way some guys have and put a turbo on. No offense to anybody, but to me some guys bolt turbos on instead of finding a way to get air into motor on its own. Please don't kick me off the Lounge!!! ;D I think KS is right too. Without going to an experienced expert and settling for some mass produced heads for monkiboys idea of a 88 x 69, you'd most likely fall way short of making the power, especially across the powerband. SODA's motor was completely driveable, even though it would go 7 thou. Sure, it was cammy, and needed to be spun to 4K to get the most out of it, but it was crisp off idle, no flat spots or garbling or coughing. I think most of that had to do with heads and not being overcammed. I think a "ragged edge" car/motor would be fun, but its limited use ability would turn me off. I'm still of the "sports car motor" ilk. Get in it after a few hours of detailing, turn key, go scare yourself for hours.
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Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on November 27, 2007, 20:01:44 PM
What i know is that Klingaman had nitrous on the 1776 engine ! I remember the hot VW's articel , i think so . It was the time when Mike Smith did 11 passes with his red 67 street car and 1776 nitrous engine . Udo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: SOB/RFH on November 27, 2007, 20:41:10 PM Mike Smith used N2O while street racing back in the pre sanctioned body days...I remeber someone (I think Dyno Don) telling about the first time he got down to Nabisco and did beat the heavy hitter V8:s with that stock looking VW.........That was the white car.....and then there was the red car and that was more of a street car (I presume)...........Anyway how can it be that Kris Klingamans car weighted 1770 lbs in race trim and 2020 in street trim....more gasoline?.....It took me years to beat the 12.40 of Chris with my car and it was driven to and back from the track.......true 2020 lbs weight and GUESS WHAT!!! I SHIFTED AT 6500 RPM!!!!! AND WENT THRUE LIGHT UNDER 6K!!! That is what I think is the diffrence between today and yesterday.....The low rpm:s power is made at and the longivty that comes from that!!!! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on November 27, 2007, 20:53:35 PM After looking closer at Klingamans 1751ccm engine it`s clear he did not use nitrous. Having punched the numbers in three different ET/HP calculators they all came up with between 186 and 188hp - cool number from a such a small engine. But with a mandatory tear down after 10 passes it was pretty hard core. So that`s the limit using some heavily ported heads from some of the big names in the industry - a little bit over 100hp/litre? Why? is the old fashion design of our engine the main reason why it`s not possible to get more or is it the way we build them? BB
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: louisb on November 27, 2007, 20:59:25 PM
Q uote from : Be e tle Bug on Nove m be r 27, 2007, 20:53:35 PM Afte r look ing close r at Klingam ans 1751ccm e ngine it`s cle ar he did not use nitrous. Having punche d the num be rs in thre e diffe re nt ET/HP calculators the y all cam e up with be twe e n 186 and 188hp - cool num be r from a such a sm all e ngine . But with a m andatory te ar down afte r 10 passe s it was pre tty hard core . So that`s the lim it using som e he avily porte d he ads from som e of the big nam e s in the industry - a little bit ove r 100hp/litre ? W hy? is the old fashion de sign of our e ngine the m ain re ason why it`s not possible to ge t m ore or is it the way we build the m ? BB
I would say it is due to the lack of and unwillings to adopt, newer technologies such as roller cams, aftermarket heads and blocks, cams, light valve trains, FI. and yes even turbos. There is also the limitation of the trans to deal with. --louis Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Animal on November 27, 2007, 21:27:33 PM Boy i like this thread,reminds me of my first 1679cc engine. My stock heads came from Dave Kawell witt ss valves and dual springs. With a w130 cam and IDA's the engine made some 100 hp. When i switched to kawells 40x35.5 heads fully ported and polished en raised compression (12:1) i ran in the 13's with a 4.86 gearbox with superdiff ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on November 27, 2007, 21:38:21 PM I would say it is due to the lack of and unwillings to adopt newer technologies Now that is a statement I find very interesting! So you think there is potential for more power by trying out new technology and know how? How much more do you think is possible? Best rgs BB
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jim Ratto on November 28, 2007, 00:15:46 AM I still say guys are not willing to build ticking time bombs. I don't think guys (on this forum at least ;D) are interested in going to 52 x 40mm valves and 62mm carbs and so on...to make the big guns spin 9000+ it would be cool to build a sub 1800cc flashbulb motor...somebody do it!
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on November 28, 2007, 00:34:39 AM This
Q uote from : louisb on Nove m be r 27, 2007, 20:59:25 PM I would say it is due to the lack of and unwillings to adopt, ne we r te chnologie s such as rolle r cam s, afte rm ark e t he ads and block s, cam s, light valve trains, FI. and ye s e ve n turbos. The re is also the lim itation of the trans to de al with. --louis
You are ofcourse so right you can be. If you hand over a VW type1 engine to for example a Kawasaki engine designer what could he do with just two valves? With their fancy equipment and sophisticated math, well over 100 horses pr lliter could be expected, but at a lower rpm than you would think... And how about a Nascar engine
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designer?
But I dont know anyone like that, but I DO know a road racing tuner that made the front page of a international Road racing Magazine. He took a fully factory race tuned Kawa and got it do deliver more torque and hp than the factory did, still within the class rules...! He is a welder during the daytime and works on these bikes in the evenings... his only weapon is a old Norwegian textbook from the fifties and a casio calculator... the book is called "CarTuning" I think if these textbooks were more common place in the days before the "internet" deigns... Could this be a way to go back in time? Or is this what everybody does and Im just in the dark?? ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jim Ratto on November 28, 2007, 00:39:19 AM maybe I am PUI-ing but we need heads with swappable intake port inserts, like carb venturies. ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Zach Gomulka on November 28, 2007, 02:15:44 AM I think 100hp per liter with this old architecture is asking a lot- especially if you want to drive it often! What I think makes a good powerful street engine is one that makes 1hp and 1 ft/lb of torque per cubic inch of displacement. Like a 1679 that makes 102hp and 102ft/lbs of torque. If you want a little more, try getting that 102hp/102tq to the rollers. Sounds like fun to me ::) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on November 28, 2007, 06:45:59 AM
Q uote from : Fastbrit on Nove m be r 27, 2007, 12:52:04 PM Q uote from : Be e tle Bug on Nove m be r 27, 2007, 11:12:11 AM WHY WA S A GUY FA STER BA CK THEN USING A MOUSE ENGINE THA N MOST GUYS A RE TODA Y? O ne big re ason the old m otors did produce a lot of horse powe r for the ir size was down to supe rior he ad work . W he n you didn't have a range if afte rm ark e t he ads to choose from , the re was no option but to e x tract the m ax im um from factory 311 castings.
Hi Keith This is why i still gather 311 heads . :) Udo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on November 28, 2007, 09:20:21 AM
Q uote from : Jim R atto on Nove m be r 28, 2007, 00:15:46 AM I still say guys are not willing to build tick ing tim e bom bs. I don't think guys (on this forum at le ast ;D) are inte re ste d in going to 52 x 40m m valve s and 62m m carbs and so on...to m ak e the big guns spin 9000+ it would be cool to build a sub 1800cc flashbulb motor...somebody do it!
If I understand your reply correctly you`re saying that we would probably need to rev the engine to the extreme, use big valves and high dollar parts to be able to reach the "next" level? And the engine would still be a ticking bomb due to "stretching the limits"? JHU and Louisb is in a way turning this thread in the direction I was hoping for; what will happen if we are willing to adapt to newer technologies and use the theories available today? Will we still end up with the same results we see today? If the answer to that question is YES then we know we`re doing something right and has been doing so for many years. But if the answer is NO and we reach the "next level"......well, then we have learnt something new. Yes - it would be cool to build a small engine with the above in mind and see the result. Best rgs BB Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: folkevogn on November 28, 2007, 10:25:55 AM Whats your defenition of "the next level"?? In my opinion going for bigger carbs,valves,displacment...etc is NOT the next level, its just pushing the limits of whats possible to put on a type 1 engine. I think this is one of the main reason why we aren`t reaching the next level. Most people just go bigger and hope for the best, bigger isn`t always better as we all know. To me "the next level" is FINESSE! F.ex take a 2007ccm that produces 183 hp at 7500rpm, if you can make the same engine produce 239 hp at 7500rpm then your taking it to the next level in my opinion. And I dont mean that you should slap on a turbo or EFI, because to me thats not TRUE cal-look.(but that another discussion ;)) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on November 28, 2007, 12:14:51 PM The bigger better route is the racers route I feel, they dont mind having huge valves, changing springs after one event and so on. That path left on that route is rather short when it comes to the type1 platform, due to the dimensions of the poor thing. But surely thats NOT what we are talking about, is it?? I thought we were talking about getting the most out of a mouse engine, sure you could use the same approach to a bigger lump and get more, but that is for the racers. The reason I was curious about Klingaman was because he must have had super nice heads, and he got high Volumetric Efficiency out of that engine. Sure he used a race cam and high revs, but I think that engine with a lesser cam would STILL be a efficient thing. ? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on November 28, 2007, 13:09:15 PM Thank you for keeping the focus JHU. Are you saying that you believe it is possible to build a effiecent little thing without adding race thinking in the mix? And by efficient I mean 100hp/litre.
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Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: The Ideaman on November 28, 2007, 15:46:30 PM Taylor Walton is building a motor for NHRA ss/fs. It will be a rollercammed 94x60 motor with Heads Up! heads and a dry sump oiling system. He's hoping for mid 11's and the record. They have many hours of flowbench work done. I sold him the 67 shell he's using to base the project on. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jim Ratto on November 28, 2007, 18:00:21 PM
Q uote from : Be e tle Bug on Nove m be r 28, 2007, 09:20:21 AM Q uote from : Jim R atto on Nove m be r 28, 2007, 00:15:46 AM I still say guys are not willing to build tick ing tim e bom bs. I don't think guys (on this forum at le ast ;D) are inte re ste d in going to 52 x 40m m valve s and 62m m carbs and so on...to m ak e the big guns spin 9000+ it would be cool to build a sub 1800cc flashbulb motor...somebody do it! If I unde rstand your re ply corre ctly you`re saying that we would probably ne e d to re v the e ngine to the e x tre m e , use big valve s and high dollar parts to be able to re ach the "ne x t" le ve l? And the e ngine would still be a tick ing bom b due to "stre tching the lim its"? JHU and Louisb is in a way turning this thre ad in the dire ction I was hoping for; what will happe n if we are willing to adapt to ne we r te chnologie s and use the the orie s available today? W ill we still e nd up with the sam e re sults we se e today? If the answe r to that que stion is YES the n we k now we `re doing som e thing right and has be e n doing so for m any ye ars. But if the answe r is NO and we re ach the "ne x t le ve l"......we ll, the n we have le arnt som e thing ne w. Ye s - it would be cool to build a sm all e ngine with the above in m ind and se e the re sult. Be st rgs BB
Hi BB! Yeah, I got off topic, sorry. I kind of misunderstood what guys were getting at. Seems everything today is BIG CC, no matter if it is race or hot street. Which is ok. Not knocking that. I would be VERY impressed to see a smaller displacement street engine (i.e. 1679, 1776, 1835...) tuned to the level that would get it into the 12 sec slot.....but still be "streetable" (no need to get into a "discussion about what streetable" is....my god, has THAT been over-argued!!!!), however a guy would go about it...it would take brains and patience. I think it comes down to reducing weight of reciprocating parts, reducing drag and windage, and making heads (and matching cam to) that have airspeed and flow characteristics to match bore x stroke and rpm needed (remember hp is a product of rpm). As you all know, you need extreme valve timing to get rpms into stratosphere, along with light stuff, and high CR to get most of cam timing. I keep threatening to build something like this, I have my old 94mm German case, and some other junk laying around..... ::) I know a 1914 isn't a mouse motor, it is more like a squirrel.. but how about a 1914 with 14:1, FK87, 1.5 rockers, 44 x 37 Super Flows and rest of the usual crap. 6lb Crown flywheel, aftermarket 5.352 rods, lightweight wrist pins, manicured skirts on 'A' pistons, relieved case webs....bla bla bla... I'd have to PUI to think of more stuff. ;D Key point is: matching head flow and airspeed and cam profile to get to the rpms you need, without making a slug. And keeping stuff as light and as free spinning as possible. Bye for now
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jim Ratto on November 28, 2007, 22:01:16 PM here's a question for the opinionated and technically minded.... if you HAD to choose one scenario (I know they're neither ideal), which would it be? "over"-ported heads (ports too large and lazy for cc and use of motor), but with conservative cam timing (like FK8?) "conservatively" ported heads (maybe cross section is too small for top rpm for cc), but with much hotter cam...like FK87 (275-280' @ .050")? Which one would you choose? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: louisb on November 28, 2007, 22:23:52 PM
Q uote from : Jim R atto on Nove m be r 28, 2007, 22:01:16 PM "conse rvative ly" porte d he ads (m aybe cross se ction is too sm all for top rpm for cc), but with m uch hotte r cam ...lik e FK87 (275-280' @ .050")?
You could always tune the engine to be liveable at some rpm through cam advance, timing, induction and exhaust. Not much you can do about port velocity on heads that are too big.
Q uote from : Be e tle Bug on Nove m be r 28, 2007, 09:20:21 AM JHU and Louisb is in a way turning this thre ad in the dire ction
I have obviously failed somehow. ;) Just my thoughs, --louis Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on November 30, 2007, 01:23:12 AM "The adventure is outside the box!" Wink Thats why I like Monkey Boys intiative with his mouse motor quest Thanks for the props JHU ;) :) I am not too sure about 100bhp per litre cos thats 167.9bhp for my planned mouse motor :o BUT I do think we need to start "thinking outside the box" a perfect example was Richies idea about narrowing the Cam/crank gear - Now thats what I'm talking about ;) :) Too many people these days listen to those people who say "what you wanna do is........." or "what you need is......" and copy other peoples combo's but never REALLY know how the whole engine is working together - this is just my 2 cents guys ;) :) Its all about going back to the true basics of "Blueprinting" :)
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Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on November 30, 2007, 09:33:45 AM
Q uote from : Jim R atto on Nove m be r 28, 2007, 22:01:16 PM he re 's a que stion for the opinionate d and te chnically m inde d....
if you HAD to choose one sce nario (I k now the y're ne ithe r ide al), which would it be ? "ove r"-porte d he ads (ports too large and lazy for cc and use of m otor), but with conse rvative cam tim ing (lik e FK8?) "conse rvative ly" porte d he ads (m aybe cross se ction is too sm all for top rpm for cc), but with m uch hotte r cam ...lik e FK87 (275-280' @ .050")? W hich one would you choose ?
Mr Ratto, Why choose between pest and cholera? And how do you know your heads are "over" ported. Best rgs BB Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: ESH on November 30, 2007, 10:20:58 AM
Q uote from : Be e tle Bug on Nove m be r 27, 2007, 11:12:11 AM I ask e d in the othe r thre ad if it is possible to re ach the 100hp/l lim it without having to spe nd a fortune and I have re ce ive d info that this is im possible to re ach - e spe cially if you want a true stre e t e ngine .
The answer to the first part of that question is obviously yes, Formula Vee engines of 1600cc have put out something in the order of 180bhp for years but the answer to the second part is go try it, Lee/Kalle talk to G.A.C. (I can get you the phone number) who have been building this type of motor for quite a while and let us know how it's doing in 5 years (or let's say 30K miles time). It'll be a interesting experiment and I'm pleased to see someone's going to try it! :)
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: John Maher on November 30, 2007, 12:44:36 PM In my experience I find its possible to achieve an output of 90bhp/litre on what I regard as a perfectly streetable engine eg 2276cc making 204bhp... i.e. a street/strip motor. Thats equivalent to a 1679cc engine making 150bhp while still retaining a semblance of drivability. Is that possible with a 1679? Definitely, but it wont be as relaxed a drive as the 2276cc motor. Stepping up to 100bhp/litre is certainly achievable but will start to stretch the boundaries of what might be regarded as streetable by some, most definitely in the case of the 1679cc motor. All depends on your definition of 'street motor'. If both engines were being built purely for the strip, you should be aiming a lot higher than 100bhp/litre but theres no way theyd be getting used on the street. Larger motors will always make for a better street/strip engine because you can build in a good mix of mid-range torque and peak bhp. For best performance on the track you need power rather than torque and the mods required to get really good power out of a small n/a motor (big valves and ports, long duration cam etc) will push the rpm range sky-high, which has the effect of killing torque in the low and mid-range rpmexactly where you need it for good performance on the street. The small cc, high hp motors from the 70s and early 80s mostly came about as a result of NHRA class rules, where permitted engine size was dictated by vehicle weight, which gave a lighter car with a well designed small capacity engine an advantage over the larger engined heavyweights. IMO its only when we see a racing class with a well defined set of restrictive rules that great developments take place. It focuses the mind and encourages people to push things to the limit. We saw it again with the introduction of PRA Pro Stock and Super Street. That was the first time VW n/a engines were being built where 48IDAs became the restricting factor and prompted the development of larger carbs and even some alternative induction systems etc etc. Racing technology always ends up trickling down to the street. As an extreme example, take a look at NHRA Pro Stock 500 cubic inch engines. Normally aspirated, pushrods, two valves per cylinder and a pair of 4 barrel carbs. Working within those restrictions for decades has seen continual development push power towards 1400bhp.. thats more than 165bhp/litre. Thats equivalent to a n/a 1679cc engine making 277bhp! Only problem with working within a very defined set of rules is the optimised combinations that work so well on one particular engine wont necessarily transfer across to another engine being built to a different specification. Take British Formula Vee. They use a 1285cc single port engine, with stock valve sizes and make around 100bhp. They work incredibly well considering the limitations of the rules and are a good example of what continued development can deliver, but bolt one into a road going car and you wont get very far. Also, apply the bhp/litre formula and you fall well short of what might be regarded as a great performing street engine i.e. approx 80bhp/litre so it doesn't work as a great model for a high powered street car. Sometimes the focus is too much on the peak bhp figure. The car that performs the best on the track is the one that makes best AVERAGE power in the rpm range it sees through each gear. It's the area under the curve that counts. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: folkevogn on November 30, 2007, 13:24:20 PM
Q uote Som e tim e s the focus is too m uch on the pe ak bhp figure . The car that pe rform s the be st on the track is the one that m ak e s be st AVER AGE powe r in the rpm range it se e s through e ach ge ar. It's the are a unde r the curve that counts.
This is a VERY VERY good point John! Alot of people seems to forget this(including me) ::) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on November 30, 2007, 13:51:38 PM
Q uote from : John Mahe r on Nove m be r 30, 2007, 12:44:36 PM Ste pping up to 100bhp/litre is ce rtainly achie vable but will start to stre tch the boundarie s of what m ight be re garde d as stre e table by som e , m ost de finite ly in the case of the 1679cc m otor.
First of all, THANKS for a brilliant post! I'm curious as to why a smaller engine would suffer more from "efficiency" than a bigger one? Surely the weight of the reciprocating parts must be less in a engine of smaller volume? (If this isn't so there must be a optimal size somewhere where the weight of the parts (wear) meets optiamal output?) What do you think the "next level" is John?
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Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: John Maher on November 30, 2007, 16:07:00 PM
Q uote from : JHU on Nove m be r 30, 2007, 13:51:38 PM First of all, THANKS for a brilliant post! I'm curious as to why a sm alle r e ngine would suffe r m ore from "e fficie ncy" than a bigge r one ? Sure ly the we ight of the re ciprocating parts m ust be le ss in a e ngine of sm alle r volum e ? (If this isn't so the re m ust be a optim al size som e whe re whe re the we ight of the parts (we ar) m e e ts optiam al output?)
Generally speaking, reducing the weight of components won't make any difference to power output (assuming all parts concerened are capable of doing their job). Lighter parts, such as rods, crank, flywheel, pistons have less rotational inertia which allows the engine to accelerate more quickly from one rpm point to another, so performance on the track is improved while measured power remains the same. That's why one 200bhp engine can be faster than another 200hp engine. Same goes for vehicle weight and aerodynamics. An improvement in either will make for better ETs with no change in engine power.
Q uote from : JHU on Nove m be r 30, 2007, 13:51:38 PM W hat do you think the "ne x t le ve l" is John?
It all depends on intended use for the engine. From a racers point of view I believe a major limiting factor is the VWs stroke to bore ratio. Look at any serious n/a professional race series (F1, NHRA Pro Stock etc) and youll find they use a large bore in comparison to crank stroke. Increasing bore and reducing stroke delivers two significant benefits to a high rpm race engine the shorter stroke reduces piston speed and the larger bore makes room for bigger valves.. Imagine a theoretical drag race series dictating a maximum capacity of 2276cc (normally 82mm x 94mm). If the rules allow any combination of bore and stroke Id be looking at say a 101.6mm bore rather than 94mm, and reducing stroke from 82mm to 70mm (2270cc). A set of suitably modified 101.6mm heads would easily outflow anything you could fit on a 94mm bore engine. Second major gain is a reduction in piston speed. At 7000rpm, an 82mm stroke motor has an average piston speed of 3766 feet per minute. Reduce stroke, the piston has less distance to travel in the same time and speed falls to 3215 feet/min for the 70mm crank at the same rpm. Therefore higher rpm is on the cards with the 70mm stroke and the bigger ports and valves of the 101.6mm heads can make some serious power, assuming theyre teamed up with suitable cam, induction, exhaust etc Horsepower lost to friction is also a factor with approx 75% of an engine's friction hp being caused by ring to cylinder contact. The reduction in stroke more than offsets the extra contact area of the larger diameter rings so more power is being used to turn the engine than being lost as heat. Currently theres no real incentive to persuade someone to build a short stroke, big bore n/a engine because having a higher bhp/litre ratio isn't going to win you the race if the guy in the next lane has more total bhp. But if you're looking to maximise bhp/litre, IMO this would be the route to explore. In the meantime max stroke/max bore engines will dominate but at the expense of bhp/litre and unless something comes along to cap engine size, the obvious route is to increase capacity by whatever means practical so naturally people will continue to opt for the longest stroke crank they can physically fit in the block. The fact remains, for a tractable street motor you can't beat an increase in displacement. If you want an easy route to force more air through your engine, make lots of power, have good driveability on the street and bump up bhp/litre, fit mappable EFI and a turbocharger. ;)
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: louisb on November 30, 2007, 16:23:14 PM Wow, there is some great information there. Thanks for posting that. --louis Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: richie on November 30, 2007, 16:32:11 PM
Q uote from : John Mahe r on Nove m be r 30, 2007, 16:07:00 PM If you want an e asy route to force m ore air through your e ngine , m ak e lots of powe r, have good drive ability on the stre e t and bum p up bhp/litre , fit m appable EFI and a turbocharge r. ;)
Afternoon John :) So you think that would work :o ;D cheers richie,uk Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: louisb on November 30, 2007, 16:38:41 PM
Q uote from : richie ,uk on Nove m be r 30, 2007, 16:32:11 PM Q uote from : John Mahe r on Nove m be r 30, 2007, 16:07:00 PM If you want an e asy route to force m ore air through your e ngine , m ak e lots of powe r, have good drive ability on the stre e t and bum p up bhp/litre , fit m appable EFI and a turbocharge r. ;)
Afte rnoon John :) So you think that would work :o ;D che e rs richie ,uk
::) Anyone can make a turbo engine go fast. :P ;) ;D --louis Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on November 30, 2007, 16:40:59 PM
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Q uote from : richie ,uk on Nove m be r 30, 2007, 16:32:11 PM Q uote from : John Mahe r on Nove m be r 30, 2007, 16:07:00 PM
If you want an e asy route to force m ore air through your e ngine , m ak e lots of powe r, have good drive ability on the stre e t and bum p up bhp/litre , fit m appable EFI and a turbocharge r. ;)
Afte rnoon John :) So you think that would work :o ;D che e rs richie ,uk
Probably would but thats cheating you know ;) Thank you for your post John. Very interesting info! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on December 02, 2007, 00:15:17 AM All very interesting this, clearly enthusiasm for small cc engines is alive and well in these parts. For my part I think you need to have a realistic expectation if youre going to head down the small cc na rapid street car route. Its a fairly obvious thing to say but the faster you want to go the more difficult it becomes to keep the car streetable (not that this is unique to small cc engines). That said personally Ive always thought when I want to drive my car its to go for a raz not just bumble about in it wishing it was more tractable comfortable, quiet etc. Its not that the car is unreliable but you need to want to drive it. As with all things there are compromises to make and we all draw the line at a different point, hence the constant argument about what a street car is. I for one am keen to chase the na 100bhp per litre mark on pump gas, if for nothing else just for the achievement. Although as John has suggested above its not all about bhp. To turn a good ET particularly when you chose a small cc option, maximising other areas is even more important then when you choose a more powerful combination. Interestingly though Im not quite sure its as difficult as most people might have you believe to get to a point where you can go quicker than most people with a similar combination. I think most people are content with a combination once its in the back of their car and running ok. Then theres the likes of the people that frequent this forum who take a strange fascination in spending lots of time, effort and often money to achieve more with less. I run a na 1776cc because I like the small engine combination and its a common boring old size that most people pass by on there way to bigger and better things. The biggest problem we all face is the lack of R&D as the majority of us developing our combinations do not have hours of backed up results at the track and dyno. All in all though looking at some of the numbers people are turning on here looks like people are doing pretty well. Just for the record does anyone know how fast people have been with a na 1776cc motor (regular 69 x 90.5 combination) in a race or street car in the past, as it would be nice to know what to aim for. Glad to see the small motors are still chasing down the big guns! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on December 02, 2007, 00:23:40 AM
Q uote from : Pe te r Shattock on De ce m be r 02, 2007, 00:15:17 AM Glad to se e the sm all m otors are still chasing down the big guns!
Still chasing?.... Soon they will be ahead.
;)
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on December 02, 2007, 01:11:15 AM
Q uote from : Be e tle Bug on De ce m be r 02, 2007, 00:23:40 AM Q uote from : Pe te r Shattock on De ce m be r 02, 2007, 00:15:17 AM Glad to se e the sm all m otors are still chasing down the big guns! Still chasing?.... Soon the y will be ahe ad. ;)
Dam Right ;) :) also some very good points Peter - I willbe doing a LOT of research for my mouse motor :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on December 02, 2007, 14:39:28 PM
Q uote from : John Mahe r on Nove m be r 30, 2007, 16:07:00 PM Ge ne rally spe ak ing, re ducing the we ight of com pone nts won't m ak e any diffe re nce to powe r output (assum ing all parts conce re ne d are capable of doing the ir job). Lighte r parts, such as rods, crank , flywhe e l, pistons have le ss rotational ine rtia which allows the e ngine to acce le rate m ore quick ly from one rpm point to anothe r, so pe rform ance on the track is im prove d while m e asure d powe r re m ains the sam e .
This is obviously both right and interesting, but its not really a answer to what I asked about, or rather what I tried to ask about (English is hard). I find everyone saying that a smaler engine would suffer more from being efficient, and by efficient I'm talking about good cylinder filling and thereby realizing the power and the torque the engine size is capable of.
Q uote from : John Mahe r on Nove m be r 30, 2007, 16:07:00 PM highe r rpm is on the cards with the 70m m strok e and the bigge r ports and valve s of the 101.6m m he ads can m ak e som e se rious powe r, assum ing the yre te am e d up with suitable cam , induction, e x haust e tc
I think this also could be used as a pro "short stroke engine" argument, but what I really is aiming at is the later part of you sentence, the "teaming" up sentence. As soon as you mention rising the efficency, people reach for the Alarm button, maked drivability/long-livety. Are we really at the breakpoint for efficiency and longlivety? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on December 02, 2007, 22:54:48 PM Hello! After following this very interesting thread I have decided to build a "mouse motor" with almost only original parts and by using some simple math and
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sience. Engine spec: Case: original AS41 Crank:German stock Rods:German stock Pistons:JE 86mm 24mm comp hight Cylinders:Stock 85,5mm honed to 86mm Heads:043 40x32mm valves Compression:12,0:1 Rockers:Jpm two stud 1,5:1 ratio P-rods:Manton 3/8" cromoly Cam:Fk45in/Fk44 ex Cam gears:Magnum Oilpump:26mm Deepsump:1,5lit Flywheel:180mm stock lightend Clutch disc:cush lock Pressure plate:Kennedy Header:Custom made 1 5/8" tuned length Manifolds:Custom made tuned length(second order) Carbs:IDA 48
The most expensive parts in this concept is the JE pistons, but I feel they are nessecery if the calculated power should be optained. All the parts will of course be inspected and modified(linebored,shuffle pinned,balanced,fullflowed etc..........) to take the higher output. Heads: The heads will recive a little welding in some areas and ported to achive as high flow as possible in the limitations of the calculated port size. Cam: I will use a cam with split duration, fk45 intake and fk44 exhaust.The less ex duration will give a superior midrange without loosing top end, if the ex port flows enough, a good choise when using a "Hi-Po" engine on the street. I have decided to use a 40mm intake valve because of the 86mm bore, and the valve will not be moved to the center of the cylinder,a bigger valve will be to much shrouded from the cylinder wall. Calculation: The formula I will use to see how much rpm the 40mm valve will be good for is: RPM=3300000xPort dia xPort dia/BorexBore xStroke This formula is based on a mean port velocity at 110m/s or(360ft/s), and the Port dia is the smallest area in the port. As this engine is going to be used as a street engine the smallest port size I will use is 0,88 x valve dia(0,88x40=35,2mm) RPM calculation:3300000x35,2x35,2/86x86x69=8012rpm The teoretical rpm where peak power will be is 8012 rpm. Now we have the RPM,diplacement but not the Bmep, a realistic Bmep is between 12-13 bar(171-185psi), so I choose 12,5bar Bmep.With this information we can calculate the POWER of the "mouse motor". Formula: P=Displ x rpm x Bmep/910 POWER=1,603 x 8012 x 12,5 / 910 = 176,4hp This is the power that could be expected from the "mouse motor" if everything is properly done. With properly done I mean everything like heads,compression,cam timing,exhaust length,intake length,friction etc..................... . I will start on this project in the next week but as I run a company it will take some time to finish it, probably in mars 2008. During that time I will keep you updated with pictures and info as the project continous. When the "mouse motor" is done there will be som serious dyno testing and tuning, hopefully we will see the numbers that i come up with in the calculations above. To me,this is what I belive is "Thinking outside the box" and "The next level". With Best Regards Johannes Persson JP Motorsport Sweden
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: lawrence on December 02, 2007, 23:13:56 PM Way to go, Johannes and everyone else who is attempting to build a mouse motor! Everyone, please keep the lounge updated with pictures, specifications, etc. This is interesting stuff. While not trying to sound emotional, attempting to build a mouse motor that will survive is a fitting tribute to our cal-look forefathers who did the same with less technology at their finger tips. I want to do something like this one day.
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Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on December 03, 2007, 14:21:06 PM
WOW, what else can I say? That sounds like a hefty output of such a small capacity! I just hope you keep us informed when you start building this powerful dwarf. This small/original parts approach has old school written all over it, except for those nice pistons, (BTW how much would one loose by using stock pistons with their fat piston rings? Or is it to avoid "ring flutter") And it's just what I expected, the big guys use simple formulas to "home" in on the target, but you are the first one that has been willing to show them. I will have a good time checking over my engine with these formulas when I have an night free.
Q uote from : lawre nce on De ce m be r 02, 2007, 23:13:56 PM atte m pting to build a m ouse m otor that will survive is a fitting tribute to our cal-look fore fathe rs who did the sam e with le ss te chnology at the ir finge r tips.
I think you are right Lawrence, another big thing was the lack of over the shelf parts, it will be cool to see all these Mouse motors beeing built, and that makes me wonder about thing John Mahler said about racing beeing one of the most impotant ways to push the limits. How about a MOUSE class? Alternatively could we design a class that would push forward the "street" engine? Limit both the RPM and the volume?
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: christophe on December 03, 2007, 15:42:35 PM Like JHU said....WOW!!!! But where the 3300000 are coming from in your formula? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on December 03, 2007, 21:24:16 PM Johannes, this is for sure one build thread I`m really looking forward to read and study. For us not so familiar with the formulas used could you please take some time to explain them. Thanks, Best rgs BB Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jim Ratto on December 03, 2007, 21:37:35 PM
Q uote from : Be e tle Bug on De ce m be r 03, 2007, 21:24:16 PM Johanne s, this is for sure one build thre ad I`m re ally look ing forward to re ad and study. For us not so fam iliar with the form ulas use d could you ple ase tak e som e tim e to e x plain the m . Thank s, Be st rgs BB
a great read on this topic...and overall engine tuning techniques.... Four Stroke Performance Tuning by AG Bell. Covers more subject matter than any other book I have gone through. Excellent chapter on camshafts and why we advance, retard, and so on. Seat duration vs. .050", etc. Valve diameter vs. cylinder displacement and use of engine....I highly suggest it. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: folkevogn on December 03, 2007, 21:56:33 PM I`m speatchless!! :o MAN...I love this tread! :) I hope that one day, I also will be able to build an engine without to mutch "swaging" :)
Q uote from : christophe on De ce m be r 03, 2007, 15:42:35 PM But whe re the 3300000 are com ing from in your form ula?
I`m just guessing but 3300000 in the rpm equation and 910 in the power equation is probably constants(a locked number) that gives you the desired term after the answer in your equations(f.ex rpm or hp) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: JS on December 03, 2007, 22:34:23 PM 175hp in a 1600ccm :o Im REALLY looking forward to this! ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on December 03, 2007, 23:20:39 PM
Q uote from : Jim R atto on De ce m be r 03, 2007, 21:37:35 PM Four Strok e Pe rform ance Tuning by AG Be ll. C ove rs m ore subje ct m atte r than any othe r book I have gone through. Ex ce lle nt chapte r on cam shafts and why we advance , re tard, and so on. Se at duration vs. .050", e tc. Valve diam e te r vs. cylinde r displace m e nt and use of e ngine ....I highly sugge st it.
Thanks, thats a good tip! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on December 04, 2007, 09:02:21 AM Hello, The 3300000 and 910 are constants created from many other formulas which have fixed numbers in them. Exemple: To calculate the area of a circle I use this formula : dia x dia x 3,14/4, the 3,14 and 4 are always there so you could "bake" them together 3,14 / 4=0,785 and there you have a constant,the new formula is: dia x dia x 0,785=area. Regards Johannes
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Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: christophe on December 04, 2007, 09:37:27 AM
OK. Thanks. Will you put this engine on your blue sleeper and race it this summer? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: n2o on December 04, 2007, 15:52:15 PM Hi Johannes, Is there any smartness behind your choice of compression height? What does it mean if you move the weight of the piston up or down over the rod? I do understand choice of compression height, when you have long stroke, but in this engine is there any gain? Thanks Roar Lunde Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on December 04, 2007, 16:38:29 PM Hi Roar, Perhaps you already no about this, but this is the reasons. 1: You do not get that much piston "rattle" when the the piston pin is closer to the rings,means less blow by. 2: It is very important to get as short push rods and cyl studs as possible, when rpm is going up a shorter(stiffer,lighter) is extremely important and the rgidity of the cylinder and heads are improved a lot, (better valve control).You also end up with a narrower engine that fits better in your car , win win situation. Regards Johannes
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: folkevogn on December 04, 2007, 23:54:43 PM Now we have the RPM,diplacement but not the Bmep, a realistic Bmep is between 12-13 bar(171-185psi), so I choose 12,5bar Bmep.With this information we can calculate the POWER of the "mouse motor". Is it possible to calulate the Bmep?Whats the reason that you estimate the Bmep to be 12-13bar(why not 10 or 15?)Is it link between CR and Bmep? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: John Maher on December 05, 2007, 12:47:20 PM
Q uote from : folk e vogn on De ce m be r 04, 2007, 23:54:43 PM Now we have the R PM,diplace m e nt but not the Bm e p, a re alistic Bm e p is be twe e n 12-13 bar(171-185psi), so I choose 12,5bar Bm e p.W ith this inform ation we can calculate the PO W ER of the "m ouse m otor". Is it possible to calulate the Bm e p?W hats the re ason that you e stim ate the Bm e p to be 12-13bar(why not 10 or 15?)Is it link be twe e n C R and Bm e p?
BMEP (brake mean effective pressure) is a useful way of comparing efficiency of various engines, regardless of capacity or manufacturer. BMEP formula below calculates AVERAGE pressure (psi) acting on the piston during the entire four stroke cycle. BMEP =(2471.174 x Torque) / engine cc To find torque from Johannes calculations (176.4bhp @ 8012 rpm).... Torque (ftlb) = (bhp x 5252) / RPM so....... Torque = (176.4 x 5252) / 8012 = 115.6ftlb i.e 115.6ftlb @ 8012rpm Plug the torque value into the BMEP formula and you have... BMEP =(2474.174 x 115.6ftlb) / 1602cc = 178.5psi = 12.3 bar The maths and physics used to calculate the engine's power potential are sound. Now it's simply a matter of making it reality. Very interesting project. Looking forward to the seeing the results.
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: K-Roc on December 05, 2007, 19:44:05 PM
Q uote from : Johanne s Pe rsson on De ce m be r 02, 2007, 22:54:48 PM The form ula I will use to se e how m uch rpm the 40m m valve will be good for is: R PM=3300000x Port dia x Port dia/Bore x Bore x Strok e This form ula is base d on a m e an port ve locity at 110m /s or(360ft/s), and the Port dia is the sm alle st are a in the port.
Hi, this calculation above ( I believe) is used to determine the port velocity as compared to a measurment on a Pitot Tube not the actual .55 Mach, or 613 Ft/second that some other caculations use, Like this Example RPM = ( FPS * CA ) / ( Bore * Bore * Stroke * .00353 ) where; RPM = point of desired Peak HP
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FPS = Feet per Second or 613.975 CA = Cross-Sectional Area in Square Inches (smallest measured) FPS = ( Bore * Bore * Stroke * RPM * .00353 ) / CA CA = ( Bore * Bore * Stroke * RPM * .00353 ) / FPS ( I just wanted to point that out in case some folks are confused by reading various formulas...) Thanks, Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on December 05, 2007, 19:44:50 PM We had 1600 cc engines up to 130 hp and 1776 cc up to 150 hp in the mid 80's . That was a lot of fun to race against the bigger cc engines . But at that time we only worked with german camshafts . Today there should be some more power on those engines :) Udo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jim Ratto on December 05, 2007, 20:17:48 PM once you get the small cc engine to produce 85 or 100hp per liter, which may equate to 165 hp or so, what about making the hp work in a Type 1? "Work" meaning having a fast street car from light to light, getting on highway, and also getting down the strip faster than your neighbor? I think things to consider are gearing to make the engine "work" and to take adavantage of torque multiplication of "closer" gears, since the engine itself is going to give up a wide torque spread. I don't think first and second need to be wall climbers, in fact a slightly taller 1st on a 4.37 r/p might be the trick, to allow the car to get some distance through the rpm. Unsprung weight is a biggie too. Big heavy wheels and tires are gonna slow a little motor way down. ERCOs are a must I would guess.....
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on December 06, 2007, 16:33:33 PM Hi, At the moment I am at the PRI show Orlando Florida and will be back in business 11/12. Regards Johannes Persson Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Animal on December 06, 2007, 20:13:14 PM Mail us some sun overhere in holland Johannes ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on December 09, 2007, 22:06:04 PM From my experience I would say Jim is on the money. As I suggested previously the combination of engine, gearbox and car becomes far more important when there is less slack available with the motor. I think Ive got some decent ratios in the box and have saved weight where I can (within my own constraints) so my interior is more race car than comfy Cal Looker but its drivable to the track and back and has turned a best of 12.44 @ 105mph (without the fan belt and with a stinger and slicks) from a regular 69x90.5 1776. Winter plans hope to see me going a bit quicker next year but time will tell, as progress has been slow over the years. I remember racing Richie in 2001 (I think), it was my first time out with the car, he ran 12.8ish (his first 12 if I remember) and I ran a 13.0 but here we are 6 years later and he is down to 9.7s and Im still in the mid 12s! It will be interesting to see how people get on with there winter plans and see the numbers from the dyno sessions and more importantly at the track, as the Dyno figures are for the bench racers and mag features, its the ET that counts (IMHO). One thing Jim was wrong about though, the car has gone much quicker with BRMs than it did with the Ercos so Ill be sticking to the mouldy old mags for now! Just wondered if anyone has had any thoughts on how quickly people have gone with a na 1776 in the past (race and street cars), Im sure there has been plenty of quick cars over the years, so if any one can recall a few cars and numbers I would appreciate it. Happy winter tinkering to you all. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on December 11, 2007, 12:33:40 PM Slightly off target but Brian Hyerstay (not sure about the spelling) runs a 1679 g/dragster into the low nines in the US and is said to produce around 220HP and goes through the lights at 11,000 rpm! Not sure it would be the best engine combination in a street sedan though, but that is a fair dollop of HP from a 1679. Check out the bugin 32 DVD as there are a few runs shown the rail is called superior steel. Needless to say it sounds bonkers! It was also featured in HotVWs in 2000 I think so those who have a back catalogue might like to take a look and post it up here for the record. If I remember rightly there were credits to the Bergs, the Eversons and Mr Klingerman, so there are a lot of proper people involved. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: ESH on December 11, 2007, 13:31:36 PM
Q uote from : Pe te r Shattock on De ce m be r 11, 2007, 12:33:40 PM ...Brian Hye rstay (not sure about the spe lling) runs a 1679 g/dragste r into the low nine s in the US and is said to produce around 220HP and goe s through the lights at 11,000 rpm ! Not sure it would be the be st e ngine com bination in a stre e t se dan though...
I heard of a nine second dragster (runs at Englishtown, NJ) which has a naturally aspirated motor of around 1900cc but pulling low nines out of a 1679 is quite something. That said I suspect getting that motor to the shops would be "quite something" too! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
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Post by: Peter Shattock on December 11, 2007, 14:14:22 PM I think it was no nonsense 9.25 or similar so like you say a major achievement, I think the turning circle and the air shifted trans might present a few problems in the supermarket car park as well! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on December 11, 2007, 15:40:06 PM Just had a quick look at the BugIn 32 DVD, if you have it check out 58 mins and 45 seconds and listen to a 1679 at 11,000 rpm really does sound great! Actually it sounds really good on tick over as well. You guy's building 1679's have a lot to live up to, but Im looking forward to hearing some little screamers at EBI2. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: ESH on December 11, 2007, 21:46:43 PM
Q uote from : Pe te r Shattock on De ce m be r 11, 2007, 15:40:06 PM ... if you have it che ck out 58 m ins and 45 se conds and liste n to a 1679 at 11,000 rpm re ally doe s sound gre at...
You need to talk to Mike Ishiko next time round, he has some interesting small motor information. They're retarding the ignition at ten five and then letting it run out some more. Some crazy a$$ stuff and all very clever! 8) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Ole on December 12, 2007, 10:53:29 AM Here's another mouse-motor: It's Siegfried Volland's Autocross engine, raced at the European Autocross Championship in the early 80's. (http://blogsimages.skynet.be/images/000/677/333_f7797952d1a529c9cfdabf6363233f76.JPG) I don't know much about this engine, I was told it's a 1585cc (69x85.5) and that it makes (made) about 160 horses... It has a Kugelfischer mechanical injection, KRE throttle bodies (IDA-size), Superflow heads, Autocraft rockers and a big dry-sump oil pump. I hope some day we'll find the time to put it back into service and fire it up again... I can already hear it... ::)
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jim Ratto on December 12, 2007, 17:03:08 PM I think all of us would be very impressed with a 1679cc that made 150hp, wouldn't we? In the right car, driven in anger, that ought to equate to low, low 13's, maybe high 12's. Myself, I wouldn't be so worried about the timeslip...if it scares the hair off of you when you push the go pedal, you've done a good job. I think a Lounge "Engine of the Year" bit would be cool....hp vs. displacement vs. longevity vs...dare I say it, fuel consumption. Kind of like an index of thermal efficiency.
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: K-Roc on December 12, 2007, 17:10:06 PM
Q uote from : Pe te r Shattock on De ce m be r 11, 2007, 12:33:40 PM Slightly off targe t but Brian Hye rstay (not sure about the spe lling) runs a 1679 g/dragste r into the low nine s in the US and is said to produce around 220HP and goe s through the lights at 11,000 rpm ! Not sure it would be the be st e ngine com bination in a stre e t se dan though, but that is a fair dollop of HP from a 1679. C he ck out the bugin 32 DVD as the re are a fe w runs shown the rail is calle d supe rior ste e l. Ne e dle ss to say it sounds bonk e rs! It was also fe ature d in HotVW s in 2000 I think so those who have a back catalogue m ight lik e to tak e a look and post it up he re for the re cord. If I re m e m be r rightly the re we re cre dits to the Be rgs, the Eve rsons and Mr Klinge rm an, so the re are a lot of prope r pe ople involve d.
I believe he was running welded 043 Castings, 42 X 37.5 Steve Timms heads at that time, I will se if I can get him to post some info, ( Wait to you see what he has coming down the pipe.......) He want's the NHRA record back! K-Roc, Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on December 13, 2007, 13:27:12 PM Ole, Interesting cooling on that auto cross motor, I wonder how long the races were as the SF's are not the best a keeping the temps down, but it obviously worked and when you consider the motor gets a good hammering for the race duration....... I wonder with the cooling effect of bio fuels if the regular squirrel fans would be good enough to control temps on the street? Anyone fancy being the guinea pig? Jim makes a good point, in all this high octane talk we should not forget the fun. Its not all about the numbers, a good razz in your street car thats got a bit of a sting in the tale is all you really need to make the world look a bit brighter! 12's with 150 hp is possible I would say, assuming the box has the right ratios and the car has been on a bit of a diet, not to mention the driver! K-Roc I've just looked at the Bugin 32 DVD and you're right they are stock looking heads (externally). It would be good to hear from Brian on here as he clearly has his house in order and he must be paving the way with HP for a 1679 flat four. If he is prepared to share some information (especially if he is moving on) Im sure there will be plenty of people on here who would like to listen to what he has to say. The way this small engine thing has taken off we could end up with 16 car heads up 1679 field at EBI2, I might even have to sling my big bore 90.5's and step up to some 88's! That said if Brian jumps over the pond and enters I think we're all doomed.
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on December 13, 2007, 13:31:22 PM Just noticed this thread has nearly reached 1679 views, which is quite fitting given the topic! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Zach Gomulka on December 13, 2007, 17:14:20 PM I remember Brians 1679 dragster used custom 5" Carrillo rods... 1.84:1 rod ratio...
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Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: The Ideaman on December 13, 2007, 18:37:02 PM Yes, and it had welded VW style heads, too. If I remember right, the G/D record got killed by the "Ladybug" dragster from New Jersey. It had a much bigger motor by the Aragona's. Taylor Walton talks with Brian on occasion. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: ESH on December 14, 2007, 10:08:15 AM
Q uote from : The Ide am an on De ce m be r 13, 2007, 18:37:02 PM ...If I re m e m be r right, the G/D re cord got k ille d by the "Ladybug" dragste r from Ne w Je rse y. It had a m uch bigge r m otor by the Aragona's...
That's the one I was thinking of, it's a 1914cc engine or something isn't it? :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on December 14, 2007, 17:10:39 PM Hello Folke, About the 56 reply, The bmep is created from the power,displ and rpm of an engine. Today there are many dynoed hi-performance VW engines out there, by using thier numbers in my formula will show you what is a realistic bmep to use. That is the reason why I "picked" 12,5. To John Maher & K-Rock. Thanks for good input. The best way to determine where VE drops off is to use the 0,55 mach index calculation, as K-Roc mentioned. It is a little bit more "tricky" than using my formula above because you have to know the efficiency of the port(flow/m2 vs crank degree). This must be done because you can have two ports with the same area but with different flow numbers, the one with the higher flow will reach 0,55 mach at higher rpm. I can strongly recomend the PRI show, it has been three days of HARDCORE racing. BTW I recived my JE "mouse motor" pistons today I will post some pictures later. Regards Johannes Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: n2o on December 16, 2007, 20:07:01 PM
Q uote from : LGK on Nove m be r 27, 2007, 12:44:31 PM " thinking out of the box" the answer is INDEED the k e y to succe s ::) R e gards Ste ve
To get more than 100hp/litre you dosent need to think outside the box, you just have to think... :-) Of the shelf parts and ideas will get us close with some common sence... thx Roar
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: 1946vw on December 18, 2007, 03:18:32 AM The good news is that all three of my 1679cc engines will be for sale soon. 220hp times 3 Brian Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on December 18, 2007, 20:56:26 PM
Q uote from : 1946vw on De ce m be r 18, 2007, 03:18:32 AM The good ne ws is that all thre e of m y 1679cc e ngine s will be for sale soon. 220hp tim e s 3 Brian
I'M INTERESTED FOR SURE :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on December 18, 2007, 22:05:06 PM I think I'll join the queue as well. I might be interested in you air shift trany as well if you are changing wholesale, or if not if you're prepared to share some info.......... as the shifts sound amazing on the Bugin 32 DVD, I seam to remember it was based on a To#ta 5 speed from the Hot VW's feature and it certainly sounded like a 5 speed on the DVD, nice idea I thought with the small cube motor. Peter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Zach Gomulka on December 19, 2007, 02:06:59 AM I thought it was a Liberty trans?
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Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: 1946vw on December 19, 2007, 02:17:25 AM
It is a liberty trans just like a V8 pro stock car has. The engines will be for sale after the first of the year they come with Dyno sheets or come here and see them make power for your self. I have a dyno at the house. Thanks Brian Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on December 21, 2007, 15:55:51 PM Hi, "Santa" came early this year. Now I have all the parts for the "Mouse motor", I have also done most of the machining to the case like line boring,shuffle pins,extra oil grove in the lifter bores etc..... . The crank assembly will be balanced after christmas, then the short block is the next step. The biggest challenge is of course the heads, the flow potential of the intake port has to be in the range of 190cfm at 25"H2O, that could be hard from a 40mm valve at 15,5mm(.613)lift. Pictures will soon be post. Merry Christmas & Happy New Year Johannes Persson Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on December 21, 2007, 16:04:46 PM Pic from Johannes: Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: benssp on December 21, 2007, 16:10:57 PM Can't wait to see the results, that flywheel is a piece of art! ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on December 21, 2007, 16:13:05 PM More pics: Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on December 21, 2007, 16:14:25 PM And more: Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on December 21, 2007, 16:15:13 PM And more: Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on December 21, 2007, 16:15:55 PM And even more: Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: benssp on December 21, 2007, 16:27:11 PM What 'CC' will it be ? and what size valves? ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on December 21, 2007, 16:47:50 PM It will be 1603cc The strange size comes from Johannes wish to use Stock old VW cylinders, he takes them up from 85,5 to 86 and have pistons to suit. The heads are 043 with 40x32mm valves... I love that 180mm flywheel! 8) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on December 21, 2007, 16:49:03 PM Hi benssp, The valve size is 40x32 and the cc is 1603 (86x69mm). Johannes Persson Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Boom Boom on December 21, 2007, 19:58:21 PM Have you got a better photo of the flywheel. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: richie on December 21, 2007, 20:57:43 PM
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Q uote from : gold65turbo on De ce m be r 21, 2007, 19:58:21 PM Hav ou got a be tte r photo of the flywhe e l.
Spellcheck??????????? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Boom Boom on December 21, 2007, 22:06:06 PM Sorry need a new keyboard :) key are not working that good. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Trond Dahl on December 21, 2007, 23:03:11 PM Gotta love that flywheel... cant wait for more progress on this very interesting project Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Tom G. on December 22, 2007, 12:15:04 PM
Q uote from : Johanne s Pe rsson on De ce m be r 21, 2007, 16:49:03 PM Hi be nssp, The valve size is 40x 32 and the cc is 1603 (86x 69m m ). Johanne s Pe rsson
Are the pistons standard pistons from JE or are their individual produce to customers details?? How much cost them... Very very nice project Johannes... Bye Tom Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Animal on December 22, 2007, 17:40:11 PM Whats the weight of that flywheel btw? ??? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on December 23, 2007, 02:55:57 AM
Q uote from : Tom G. on De ce m be r 22, 2007, 12:15:04 PM Are the pistons standard pistons from JE or are the ir individual produce to custom e rs de tails?? How m uch cost the m ...
They are custom order thru Johannes (JPM)

Q uote from : Be witche d on De ce m be r 22, 2007, 17:40:11 PM W hats the we ight of that flywhe e l btw? ???
It weighs 3.2 kg! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: lawrence on December 23, 2007, 03:27:39 AM That is a 7 pound flywheel!! Johannes, does that have an effect on driveability? Is this strictly a race motor? Its gonna rev like a dirtbike. ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Animal on December 24, 2007, 13:43:13 PM Damn a 7 pound flywheel,gonna rev over 8000 rpm with that ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: K-Roc on December 25, 2007, 20:52:17 PM
Q uote from : Be witche d on De ce m be r 24, 2007, 13:43:13 PM Dam n a 7 pound flywhe e l,gonna re v ove r 8000 rpm with that ;D
I see that flywheel (As cool as it is..)as an effective tool to achieve a high number on the Dyno but not to an advantage on the dragstrip. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on December 25, 2007, 21:48:18 PM Johannes told me that he has tested his other R&D engine with both heavy and super light flywheel. He got the best time and the highest trap speed with the lightest one. Thats why it's still in the combo. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Bruce on December 26, 2007, 20:25:17 PM I'd like to know his launch rpm with that flywheel. I also think that flywheel weighs less than 7 lbs. My own is 8 lbs and it doesn't have the big windows in it. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: SOB/RFH on December 27, 2007, 09:22:23 AM Hey. Cool project Johanes. I did one 1600 a few years ago with mostly stock parts (10:1 C/R and a 280 deg cam) and we got a 14.6 out of it in a heavy car. My experience, if it has any value, is the small motor, light car equals light flywheel....heavy car and small motor on the other hand can successfully be ran with heavy flywheel....both combos need high 1:st gearing and high revs to move and will eat R/P:s like they eat hamburgers in the US...........So what R/P is going to be used and will it survive the first 20 set up runs on the sticky local track or will it be saved by a lot of dyno time :) .........Its about time that someone kill Swedens "best ET so far with a 1600 cc motor" from back in the early 90's.....13.1 in an oval body car, owned by a guy named "Knutte". Car is still around but has a big (broken?) motor and lot of bling-bling. Happiness is a Hot VW!!
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Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Roman on December 27, 2007, 19:37:52 PM
Q uote from : K-R oc on De ce m be r 25, 2007, 20:52:17 PM Q uote from : Be witche d on De ce m be r 24, 2007, 13:43:13 PM Dam n a 7 pound flywhe e l,gonna re v ove r 8000 rpm with that ;D
I se e that flywhe e l (As cool as it is..)as an e ffe ctive tool to achie ve a high num be r on the Dyno but not to an advantage on the dragstrip. Q uote from : lawre nce on De ce m be r 23, 2007, 03:27:39 AM Its gonna re v lik e a dirtbik e . ;D
A light flywheel will give a great throttle response, but explain to me how a light flywheel will increase the RPM and give higher hp readings on a dyno? I know Johannes has a tranny with really high gearing made for his blue super beetle and the R/D engine that revs over 9500. If he had a "normal" tranny he would do the quarter in only 3 gears. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on December 28, 2007, 00:01:10 AM Hi Again, Lawrence, the light flywheel will affect driveability, the motor will rew, both up and down, faster which can be experienced like its with.This engine will primarely be built for the "strip", but with a heavier flywheel it will be very streetable. Bruce, the launch rpm in the car that I am going to use(type 1 -63 1650lbs) will probably be between 7-8k. K-Rock, There will be time slips the comming summer with this "Mouse Motor", the most objectiv dyno is the dragstrip, isnt it?. I am not trying to "show off" or "brag" about doing this "Mouse Motor" project,I do it because of my dedication to the type 1 engine,learning and understanding the internal combustion engine and shareing experience with you Loungers. Tom, I will e-mail you later. SOB, good input.The car to be used with the "Mouse Motor" is a type 1 -63 1650lbs(750kg)at the starting line, it has a low ratio transaxel R/P 4.86:1 close ratio with 1.37:1 on the fourth gear.The rims are Saco five bolt and the tires are M&H 6x26-15. On a small engine, the weight of the rotating engine parts has to be in relation to the vehicle weight and gearing. BTW in 1997 I did several 12.50s 165km/h with my 1679cc in my old yellow type 1. The shortblock is almost done by now. Enjoy the pictures. Johannes Persson Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: K-Roc on December 28, 2007, 00:26:13 AM
Q uote from : Johanne s Pe rsson on De ce m be r 28, 2007, 00:01:10 AM K-R ock , The re will be tim e slips the com m ing sum m e r with this "Mouse Motor", the m ost obje ctiv dyno is the dragstrip, isnt it?. I am not trying to "show off" or "brag" about doing this "Mouse Motor" proje ct,I do it be cause of m y de dication to the type 1 e ngine ,le arning and unde rstanding the inte rnal com bustion e ngine and share ing e x pe rie nce with you Lounge rs.
harder to "cruse"
Hi Johannes I just want to let you know that I think it is awesome that you are able to make this project happen, I wish I had the means and time to do the same, In my mind I figure that with the flywheel that light that on launch once the inertia is released from the flywheel it would be hard to replace it to keep the car accelrating out of the hole and down the track. However with you old times of 12.50's at 165 Kmh, that would prove me wrong :) and that wouldn't be the first time! LOL! Good luck with the project and I look forward to seeing some killer results. K-Roc, Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on December 28, 2007, 00:00:02 AM 1. Machining rods to get equal weight in all four rods big and small end. (http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/007.jpg) 2.Checking the straitness of the rods. (http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/008.jpg) 3.Complete crank assembly on the balancing machine (a german Schenk balancer). (http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/009.jpg) 4.Final cleaning of crank. (http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/010.jpg) 5.Checking cam to lifter clerances and end play on camshaft. (http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/011.jpg) 6.Adjusting intake centerline. (http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/012.jpg) 7. (http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/013.jpg) 8.Machining cylinder deck. (http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/014.jpg)
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9.The machining is done on a fixture where the case is leveld on the mains. (http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/015.jpg) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Zach Gomulka on December 28, 2007, 01:25:13 AM A non counterweighted crankshaft?! You are a braver man than I!! ;D What type of pressure plate is that? Not sure if you already know, but Kennedy offers aluminium versions of their pressure plates that are 3lbs lighter than stock. Something to think about ;) Good luck!! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Bruce on December 28, 2007, 05:17:54 AM
Q uote from : R om an on De ce m be r 27, 2007, 19:37:52 PM Q uote from : K-R oc on De ce m be r 25, 2007, 20:52:17 PM Q uote from : Be witche d on De ce m be r 24, 2007, 13:43:13 PM Dam n a 7 pound flywhe e l,gonna re v ove r 8000 rpm with that ;D I se e that flywhe e l (As cool as it is..)as an e ffe ctive tool to achie ve a high num be r on the Dyno but not to an advantage on the dragstrip. Q uote from : lawre nce on De ce m be r 23, 2007, 03:27:39 AM Its gonna re v lik e a dirtbik e . ;D A light flywhe e l will give a gre at throttle re sponse , but e x plain to m e how a light flywhe e l will incre ase the R PM and give highe r hp re adings on a dyno?
The flywheel has no effect on how high an engine can rev. The engine's breathing, cam, valvetrain, etc. are what affect the max rpm. If the engine is on a dyno that uses a water brake, you won't see the effect of the flywheel since that type of dyno takes static rpm power readings. However, if the engine is in a car which is on an inertial dyno, a light flywheel will show a higher hp reading than the same engine with a heavy flywheel. The resistance provided by an inertial dyno is the moment of inertia of the rollers the rear tires ride on. The dyno measures how fast the car can accelerate the rollers. A lighter flywheel means there's more power available to accelerate the rollers. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Animal on December 28, 2007, 10:12:48 AM Thats the biggest crank pulley that i have ever seen ;D Nice work though,keep us posted dude 8) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Tom G. on December 28, 2007, 11:06:28 AM BTW do i need a high pressure plate for such a 1600 with nearly 115lbs? Or is it also possible to take a good Std new Luk plate with cushin grib disc?? Because this combination i have in my 1951ccm...and it functioned,my tires are burning:-)) Bye Tom Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Animal on December 28, 2007, 18:19:06 PM I would upgrade to a high pressure plate Tom buts thats my 2 cents ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: The Ideaman on December 30, 2007, 17:05:16 PM
Q uote from : Pe te r Shattock on De ce m be r 18, 2007, 22:05:06 PM I think I'll join the que ue as we ll. I m ight be inte re ste d in you air shift trany as we ll if you are changing whole sale , or if not if you're pre pare d to share som e info.......... as the shifts sound am azing on the Bugin 32 DVD, I se am to re m e m be r it was base d on a To#ta 5 spe e d from the Hot VW 's fe ature and it ce rtainly sounde d lik e a 5 spe e d on the DVD, nice ide a I thought with the sm all cube m otor. Pe te r
I believe in the HVW's article, it was a To#ta rearend. I'd bet he has since updated to a 9 inch ford with profiled aluminum spool and rifle drilled axles to save weight. The car is super tiny in person. I saw it at the Phoenix national event near the scales in '00. You can almost trip over it. It takes huge dedication to make a car like this competitive. Brian, what are you going to do with the dragster after the motors are sold? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: drgouk on January 03, 2008, 12:24:58 PM
Q uote from : Bruce on De ce m be r 28, 2007, 05:17:54 AM Q uote from : R om an on De ce m be r 27, 2007, 19:37:52 PM Q uote from : K-R oc on De ce m be r 25, 2007, 20:52:17 PM Q uote from : Be witche d on De ce m be r 24, 2007, 13:43:13 PM Dam n a 7 pound flywhe e l,gonna re v ove r 8000 rpm with that ;D I se e that flywhe e l (As cool as it is..)as an e ffe ctive tool to achie ve a high num be r on the Dyno but not to an advantage on the dragstrip. Q uote from : lawre nce on De ce m be r 23, 2007, 03:27:39 AM Its gonna re v lik e a dirtbik e . ;D A light flywhe e l will give a gre at throttle re sponse , but e x plain to m e how a light flywhe e l will incre ase the R PM and give highe r hp re adings on a dyno? The flywhe e l has no e ffe ct on how high an e ngine can re v. The e ngine 's bre athing, cam , valve train, e tc. are what affe ct the m ax rpm . If the e ngine is on a dyno that use s a wate r brak e , you won't se e the e ffe ct of the flywhe e l since that type of dyno tak e s static rpm powe r re adings. Howe ve r, if the e ngine is in a car which is on an ine rtial dyno, a light flywhe e l will show a highe r hp re ading than the sam e e ngine with a he avy flywhe e l. The re sistance provide d by an ine rtial dyno is the moment of inertia of the rolle rs the re ar tire s ride on. The dyno m e asure s how fast the car can acce le rate the rolle rs. A lighte r flywhe e l m e ans the re 's m ore powe r available to acce le rate the rolle rs.
Bruce it depends on weather the water brake engine dyno is computer controled and you can acclerate the engine, Whats called a "power run" not a static test. THe effect of lighter internal components will show during this type of testing. A superflow 902 or a dts dyno can carryout this type of testing.
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Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on January 11, 2008, 01:41:18 AM Description of the pictures will follow: (http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/019.jpg) Welding of combustion chambers, mainly to get the desired comp ratio because of the small displasement.
(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/0208.jpg) (http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/021.jpg) A small welding is done on the sparkplug side of the intakeport, the welding is massive to the underside of the head. (http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/022.jpg) Welded and machined intake flange. (http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/023.jpg) New bigger alu bronze seats installed, alu bronze has the same heat expansion as aluminum and it also transfer heat a lot better than for example steel seats. (http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/024.jpg)
(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/025.jpg)
(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/027.jpg) Combustion chamber,intake and ex port done, note how close the camber wall is to the valve on the none sparkplug side, this is to get the extension of the intake port shaped as a venturi.This boosts the flow from 10mm lift and up it also improves the quality of incomming mixture, in my experience, unshrouding the vale at this side will improve the flow on low lifts but will decrease the power. (http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/030.jpg) The intake port is filled on the long side radius with BELZONA 1111 to get the correct shape and sizes. (http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/031.jpg) Big Beef has become "SMALL STEAK" (http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/032.jpg) I am really suprised of the flow numbers from a 40mm intake valve and 86mm bore. Flownumbers CFM at 25"H2O. lift(mm) Flow(intake) Flow(exhaust) 2 42,6 39,5 4 81,3 73,3 6 111,4 96,5 8 136,7 115,5 10 159,4 130,3 12 177,5 141,8 14 188,2 148,5 16 194,9 152,5 The Port velocity(intake) meassured in the center of the port at the flange is 298ft/s this is where the port is the biggest. Same measurements on the ex port is 324ft/s.The outlet is only 34mm, going too big on the outlet will slow down the speed and the overall power will drop. First I did some tests with an old head to see what intake flow numbers I could reach, when I saw the unexpected high numbers I had to increase the ex valve from 32mm to 35,5mm. Regards Johannes (http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/026.jpg) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on January 11, 2008, 13:30:38 PM I think it is fantastic that a professional like you lets us see your "magic". I'm trying to soak up all the info i can so I'll will be tuned for the duration. This is going to be one special little engine. 8) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Callook_67 on January 11, 2008, 13:47:15 PM
Q uote from : JHU on January 11, 2008, 13:30:38 PM I think it is fantastic that a profe ssional lik e you le ts us se e your "m agic". I'm trying to soak up all the info i can so I'll will be tune d for the duration. This is going to be one spe cial little e ngine . 8)
I feel the same way :) I'm checking this thread allmost every day to see if something new have happend. Johannes, keep on the NICE work. /Rolf, DK
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: n2o on January 11, 2008, 16:11:08 PM Impressive number's Johannes.
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Quick question, do you know the max speed of air, where port is at it's smallest? Thanks Roar Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: K-Roc on January 11, 2008, 19:24:33 PM
Q uote from : n2o on January 11, 2008, 16:11:08 PM Im pre ssive num be r's Johanne s. Q uick que stion, do you k now the m ax spe e d of air, whe re port is at it's sm alle st? Thank s R oar
You use a Pitot Tube to measure localized Velocity on the flow bench, Johannes, nice work ! I have never heard of Belzonia 1111, is that an Aluminum based Epoxy of some sort? ( I use stuff called Splash Zone from ZSPar) Reher Morrison sell it. For your 40mm intake valve, what did you use for the Seat throat ID diameter and Bowl diameter under the seat ? I usually shoot for about 89-90% for the throat and then enlarge the bowl on the High RPM stuff. Giving away a few secrets there LOL, ie: NOT blowing out the chamber wall to valve seat... I have seen some large increases in Flow bench numbers on heads with heavily unshrouded chambers only to suffer in actual power in real life. one of those areas that the flow bench will lie to you unless you know what you are doing K-Roc Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: yvre on January 12, 2008, 10:26:14 AM Man, what a great thread!!! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on January 12, 2008, 15:54:22 PM Hi there, N2O:The highest speed I recorded was 356ft/s, on the short side radius close to the seat.The velocity is meassured at 28" of depression. K-Roc:I use the pitot tube as a reference tool just to check velocities in different areas in the port. The seat ID is 90% of the valve dia and the bowl is a little bigger, not as big as I use to make them on an all out race engine.I have also noticed if your engine is valve restricted you can go as big as 93% of valve dia with very good results, the seat has then to be cut to a special shape. The Belzona 1111 is an epoxy that I really do not know wath it contains but it is for me so far the best I have tried, no problems to this point.I gues you can find info on the internet. Regards Johannes Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on January 12, 2008, 23:39:14 PM
Q uote from : yvre on January 12, 2008, 10:26:14 AM Man, what a gre at thre ad!!!
Just what I was thinkin dude ;) :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: haldex201 on January 13, 2008, 12:42:28 PM I think i am not gonna use my old SF heads 44/37,5 any more. JPM has take them to his flow bench and they had the worse data as the 043JPM heads. You are a fantastisk man Johannes. Look forward too see what data the dyno gives. Tom V K Copenhagen
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: sonic on January 20, 2008, 18:47:15 PM Really find this thread interesting . Apart from a couple of engines buildt by JMR ,(thanks John), I always tried to do the work myself . Apart from a 2165 NOS `d engine I felt for going back in time for that "no worries "1776 cc engine . Yesterday I spotted 4 Carrillo rods on sale from Berg`s and that got me hooked . So it went on with ordering a complete crank assembly, ( welded 69,)balanced and ready. On top og this 044 heads , p&p by local man .. As I am hoping to get the most out of this engine powerwise `good adwise on cam choice is paramount , I am by no means a proffetional builder but I have gone thrught a lot of Engle Cams , only to be impressed with 3 or 4 . Love the FK 89 , W 110 and 130. So if anyone have any good adwise regarding cam , compression choice I would be happy.. I am espesially concerned about material quality these days . I just love what Johannes Person is doing , but without his know/how it will always be a case of trial /error for me .
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Regards
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Taylor on January 27, 2008, 21:42:56 PM tell me about this for small powerhouse! 101cu.in. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Bruce on January 27, 2008, 23:16:26 PM Welcome aboard, Taylor! Ya can't just post that without some numbers for us to fantisize about. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on January 27, 2008, 23:50:00 PM And alittle more info wouldn't go amiss ;) :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: K-Roc on January 28, 2008, 05:45:03 AM Nice! I think you may need slightly larger valve springs though ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on January 28, 2008, 08:49:35 AM
Q uote from : K-R oc on January 28, 2008, 05:45:03 AM Nice ! I think you m ay ne e d slightly large r valve springs though ;D
Nah... that`s the new trend you know - superlight everything. Titanium valves, carbon pushrods + + .... don`t need much pressure to make things work.. Oh, and it saves you lifters they say :D Well, back to topic - It`s been a little while since Johannes reported back and I`m really looking forward to see the progress he has made on his engine. Best rgs BB Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on January 28, 2008, 10:45:10 AM The engine is sitting in the engine stand now, will run in cam, and comment the pictures later. (http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/33.jpg) The cylinders are about 20mm shorter than std length. (http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/34.jpg) The std 85,5mm pistons has a weight of 568g the JE 86mm weights only 388g, 180g lighter. (http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/35.jpg) The pushrods are 254mm long, it is not unusuall to have pushrods between 275-285mm in stroker engines. (http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/36.jpg) "Mouse Motor" waiting for cam brake in, only with the outer valvespring, the dual OTEVA 75 springs has 165lbs in the seat and 370lbs at 15,5mm lift.The weight of the spring is only 64g. (http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/37.jpg) "Beetlbug" the header is tuned to 8000rpm as the rest of the engine, the #2 and #4 tubes will be too long if I place them in the ordonary style. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on January 28, 2008, 11:01:49 AM Thank you for you update Johannes! I`m very much looking forward to hearing the theory behind the exhaust. Best rgs BB Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: n2o on January 28, 2008, 21:14:17 PM higher rews, shorter tubes.. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on January 28, 2008, 22:08:19 PM Hi there, THE MOUSE MOTOR is alive! The brake in prossedur of the cam went fine and now the duals are on. Time to do some rpm.......... A small video will be posted very soon. Everything sounds promising so far. Regards Johannes Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on January 28, 2008, 22:26:11 PM Congrats with the start up - exciting news!
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Thank you for answering my question. I hope you don`t mind me babbling along regarding your header? So the header is tuned to 8000 rpms and if you used a "ordinary" header the #2 and #4 tubes would be too long. But what would be the difference if you compared your custom made header to a "out of the box ordinary" one? Lack of respons? Less hp? Less driveability? Thanks, BB / Kalle Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on January 28, 2008, 22:54:35 PM "It's alive!!! Moahahahahaaa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPVqYRrQBA0&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPVqYRrQBA0&feature=related) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Rune on January 28, 2008, 23:02:31 PM Great throttle respons, cool Johannes!! :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: DKK Rick on January 28, 2008, 23:13:44 PM That thing just snaps! very cool! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Rasser on January 28, 2008, 23:49:58 PM Thumbs up!!!!! Sounds amazing!! Keep up the great work, its so exiciting to follow this build from start to finished engine. Imagine yourself driving a big V8, stopping for a red light - and then a beetle comes up beside you and starts revving like that ;-) ;-) ;-) LOVE hot VWs. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: 67-indeed/DVK on January 29, 2008, 00:56:56 AM awesome vid!! how come it snaps like that? is the flywheel that light? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on January 29, 2008, 01:15:21 AM
Q uote from : R asse r DK on January 28, 2008, 23:49:58 PM Thum bs up!!!!! Sounds am azing!! Ke e p up the gre at work , its so e x iciting to follow this build from start to finishe d e ngine . Im agine yourse lf driving a big V8, stopping for a re d light - and the n a be e tle com e s up be side you and starts re vving lik e that ;-) ;-) ;-) thats why i LO VE hot VW s.
thats why i
couldn't have put it better myself dude - sounds AWSOME ;D ;D ;D And D I think the light flywheel helps ALOT - I think I might drop Johannes Persson a line about my 1679 mouse motor ;) :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: lawrence on January 29, 2008, 06:49:00 AM Very cool video clip. Thanks for sharing all of the info on the buildup. Johannes, the rocker arm assembly looks like a quality piece. Who makes it? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: folkevogn on January 29, 2008, 09:17:18 AM Awsome sound :o!!!Cant wait to hear it rev past 8000rpm ;D ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on January 29, 2008, 09:26:16 AM Thank you guys for your input. Beetlebug:using a too long header will hurt the top end power, the torque curve will drop earlier in the rpm range. If the rest of the engine is tuned at a high rpm a too long header hurts the output a lot. 67-indeed/DVK:It is a combination between light rotating parts and good cylinder pressure that makes an engine snap. lawrence:Thank you for asking, that is my own product I make those together with my fivestud rockers which fits on the MS230 heads. The final is comming up with this project and that is ofcourse to put the "Mouse Motor" on the "bullshit detector"(dyno) and see what it makes. Hopefully I will have time to do this in a two week period. Regards Johannes Persson
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: drgouk on January 29, 2008, 09:58:38 AM Awsome Johannes, You do some top work. Very interesting. Regards
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David Gouk
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Torben Alstrup on January 29, 2008, 12:06:55 PM Hello. Very interesting heads, - among all the other stuff. Im very interested in seeing how this turns out. I made a set of heads with chambers almost exactly like that, 40 X 34 valves though, and with an oval shape intake port a couple of years back, for a 1680 engine. Cam in the same duration range, but with smaller carbs. Bottom line was that it didnt perform that well. It felt wild on the street, but the BS detector said otherwise. When it was taken apart again, the chambers showed a very inefficient plug side, judging from the carbon patterns. I may have made a bad intake port shape without knowing it. Johannes. If you dont mind sharing, what I/E ratio does it have with the small exhaust valve ? Im guessing rather low. T Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: sonic on January 29, 2008, 21:23:22 PM Impressive , but 48 `s must surely be to much , !!! Rgs Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Neil Davies on January 29, 2008, 21:39:26 PM 48's are never too much! ;) Seriously, I'm guessing that they're choked down quite a bit, but this is obviously no ordinary 1600! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on January 30, 2008, 10:07:17 AM Small engines need "big" carbs to breath efficiently when you want the higher revs, more so than lager engines. This is just something I have heard and seen, but can anyone explain why? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: airstuff on January 30, 2008, 13:08:44 PM where can I get those JE pistons,I need 88mm ones. ??? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Rune on January 30, 2008, 17:20:23 PM Drop Johannes a line, he can hook you up with the pistons you need.. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: kormi on January 30, 2008, 19:01:28 PM Nice work Johannes! Looking forward to see the dyno-pull :D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on January 30, 2008, 20:49:26 PM
Q uote from : cal-look on January 30, 2008, 13:08:44 PM whe re can I ge t those JE pistons,I ne e d 88m m one s. ???
I still have some 88,5 pistons for sale . They where made by Wahl , a company that makes racing pistond for mahle . Very strong and lightweight . Their are only a view miles on them . Kompression height is the same as the 90,5 x 82 Udo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Billyisgr8 on January 31, 2008, 04:19:15 AM This is awsome, great job I am a fan of a mouse motor and will follow this closely, I would have really loved to have seen you do this with a singleport. I see you are using non counterweighted crankshaft. How balanced were you able to get the crankshaft down too without the counterweights? Here is something for you singleport fans. Kevin (http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/377171.jpg)
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: cbigpwr on January 31, 2008, 07:28:14 AM
Q uote from : taylor on January 27, 2008, 21:42:56 PM te ll m e about this for sm all powe rhouse ! 101cu.in.
Hello all, I'm Anthony and I work @ Heads Up Performance. I've been working with Taylor for "way too long" on this small motor project. The object was to try to run a bug competively in NHRA SS/CC again. Well, they moved the class to Modified Stock and renamed it SS/FS. Same weight break and rules, so we didn't get too bummed. Taylor is using a 1967 sedan, so it will have the Klingamann, Mike Smith look, my all time favorite drag cars. The motor is going to be a 94x60, Aluminium rods, roller cam, custom everything 101 inch. The heads are "highly modified" 044 castings with Heads Up/ Componant Development 1.8:1 rockers. I don't even want to think how much time I have in these little babies. They just hit the bench the other day, 250 CFM @.700 @ 25" on our Super Flow 600 bench. The valve are 45x36 with really small chambers. Getting compression is really hard on this
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motor. We are going to fire the motor up on 48 idf carbs first, and maybe run it down the track, but then switch to fuel injection after. I can't wait to finish this motor. I've been thinking about this kind of combo for aboiut 10 years, then Taylor came along. He had the same kind of ideas and want to run in NHRA again, so we kind of pooled our thoughts and hopefully the thing runs good enough to make a good showing for VW's in the door car catagories again. More to come later... Anthony Chicca Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Tom G. on January 31, 2008, 11:32:27 AM
Q uote from : JHU on January 28, 2008, 22:54:35 PM "It's alive !!! Moahahahahaaa http://www.youtube .com /watch?v=VPVqYR rQ BA0&fe ature =re late d (http://www.youtube .com /watch?v=VPVqYR rQ BA0&fe ature =re late d)
Heads Up Performance
Oh what a great result...i still know what my next project is:-)) it sounds like a high rev. motorcycle engine....if i see these low weights of flywheel and pistons.. wow..i am speechless.. Regards Tom Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on January 31, 2008, 14:19:19 PM Hi Torben, Sorry I missed your question. The I/E ratio is about 78%, if you go back in the thread you will find the flow numbers from 2-16mm lift. Best regards Johannes Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Frallan on January 31, 2008, 15:28:34 PM Hello everyone, I posted this on a thread at STF. I think Johannes is timid......look what he already did with his 1915 cc. Never did he mention this yet, so I do. It is on the JPM website under movies. Listen to it and believe him, it runs and stays together. It is used on the street too. Frallan http://www.jpmotorsport.se/ 1915 cc close to 250 hp at 9500 rpm. 4 Mikuni carburators. Soon Motec FI and more HP, if I am to believe him. Just listen to it and anyone who has riden this car ( I havent) says that the car is streetable and has lowdown torque. I dont get it but why not? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Zach Gomulka on January 31, 2008, 16:31:43 PM
Q uote from : Billyisgr8 on January 31, 2008, 04:19:15 AM How balance d we re you able to ge t the crank shaft down too without the counte rwe ights?
You can balance a crank with or without counterweights. Think about it... when counterweights are added, there is 2 put on each "side" of the crank... Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: cameron shorey on January 31, 2008, 17:39:07 PM
Q uote from : cbigpwr on January 31, 2008, 07:28:14 AM Q uote from : taylor on January 27, 2008, 21:42:56 PM te ll m e about this for sm all powe rhouse ! 101cu.in. He llo all, I'm Anthony and I work @ He ads Up Pe rform ance . I've be e n work ing with Taylor for "way too long" on this sm all m otor proje ct. The obje ct was to try to run a bug com pe tive ly in NHR A SS/C C again. W e ll, the y m ove d the class to Modifie d Stock and re nam e d it SS/FS. Sam e we ight bre ak and rule s, so we didn't ge t too bum m e d. Taylor is using a 1967 se dan, so it will have the Klingam ann, Mik e Sm ith look , m y all tim e favorite drag cars. The m otor is going to be a 94x 60, Alum inium rods, rolle r cam , custom e ve rything 101 inch. The he ads are "highly m odifie d" 044 castings with He ads Up/ C om ponant De ve lopm e nt 1.8:1 rock e rs. I don't e ve n want to think how m uch tim e I have in the se little babie s. The y just hit the be nch the othe r day, 250 C FM @.700 @ 25" on our Supe r Flow 600 be nch. The valve are 45x 36 with re ally sm all cham be rs. Ge tting com pre ssion is re ally hard on this m otor. W e are going to fire the m otor up on 48 idf carbs first, and m aybe run it down the track , but the n switch to fue l inje ction afte r. I can't wait to finish this m otor. I've be e n think ing about this k ind of com bo for aboiut 10 ye ars, the n Taylor cam e along. He had the sam e k ind of ide as and want to run in NHR A again, so we k ind of poole d our thoughts and hope fully the thing runs good e nough to m ak e a good showing for VW 's in the door car catagorie s again. More to com e late r... Anthony C hicca He ads Up Pe rform ance
Hi Anthony, I'm curious. What is the reason for the 1" x 1" bar welded along the bottom of that head? And what are going to do for valve covers? I like the idea of going to 48 IDF footprint EFI. Much more compact. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Billyisgr8 on January 31, 2008, 20:45:03 PM
Q uote from : Zach Gom ulk a on January 31, 2008, 16:31:43 PM Q uote from : Billyisgr8 on January 31, 2008, 04:19:15 AM How balance d we re you able to ge t the crank shaft down too without the counte rwe ights? You can balance a crank with or without counte rwe ights. Think about it... whe n counte rwe ights are adde d, the re is 2 put on e ach "side " of the crank ...
Can you get the same tolorance in grams with or without counterweights, or can you balance to a smaller gram with counterweights, is maybe the way I should have worded the question.
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Kevin Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on January 31, 2008, 20:48:31 PM Hello Frallan, Thank you for your nice words. The dynopull on my homepage made to 9500rpm is the first version of my 1915 project. It produced 224hp/8400rpm, today the same engine with some more R&D to it produce 246hp/8900rpm and keeps good power till 9500rpm.It will be equipped with Motec and my F1 roller throttle bodies for this season, I hope. Sorry for taking a side step. Regards Johannes
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Bruce on February 01, 2008, 05:28:30 AM
Q uote from : Billyisgr8 on January 31, 2008, 20:45:03 PM Q uote from : Zach Gom ulk a on January 31, 2008, 16:31:43 PM Q uote from : Billyisgr8 on January 31, 2008, 04:19:15 AM How balance d we re you able to ge t the crank shaft down too without the counte rwe ights? You can balance a crank with or without counte rwe ights. Think about it... whe n counte rwe ights are adde d, the re is 2 put on e ach "side " of the crank ... C an you ge t the sam e tolorance in gram s with or without counte rwe ights, or can you balance to a sm alle r gram with counte rwe ights, is m aybe the way I should have worde d the que stion.
Any VW crank can be balanced to 0.0000000g of imbalance. The size of the counterweight has nothing to do with the balancing job. The counterweight helps prevents flexing of the crank. The ideal counterweight for a VW crank is much heavier than is physically possible. In other words, they are never big enough. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Fast Bug on February 01, 2008, 14:16:11 PM
Q uote from : Bruce on Fe bruary 01, 2008, 05:28:30 AM Any VW crank can be balance d to 0.0000000g of im balance . The size of the counte rwe ight has nothing to do with the balancing job. The counte rwe ight he lps pre ve nts fle x ing of the crank . The ide al counte rwe ight for a VW crank is m uch he avie r than is physically possible . In othe r words, the y are ne ve r big e nough.
That's true, I couldn't have said it better Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: cbigpwr on February 01, 2008, 17:21:55 PM
Q uote from : cam e ron shore y on January 31, 2008, 17:39:07 PM Q uote from : cbigpwr on January 31, 2008, 07:28:14 AM Q uote from : taylor on January 27, 2008, 21:42:56 PM te ll m e about this for sm all powe rhouse ! 101cu.in. He llo all, I'm Anthony and I work @ He ads Up Pe rform ance . I've be e n work ing with Taylor for "way too long" on this sm all m otor proje ct. The obje ct was to try to run a bug com pe tive ly in NHR A SS/C C again. W e ll, the y m ove d the class to Modifie d Stock and re nam e d it SS/FS. Sam e we ight bre ak and rule s, so we didn't ge t too bum m e d. Taylor is using a 1967 se dan, so it will have the Klingam ann, Mik e Sm ith look , m y all tim e favorite drag cars. The m otor is going to be a 94x 60, Alum inium rods, rolle r cam , custom e ve rything 101 inch. The he ads are "highly m odifie d" 044 castings with He ads Up/ C om ponant De ve lopm e nt 1.8:1 rock e rs. I don't e ve n want to think how m uch tim e I have in the se little babie s. The y just hit the be nch the othe r day, 250 C FM @.700 @ 25" on our Supe r Flow 600 be nch. The valve are 45x 36 with re ally sm all cham be rs. Ge tting com pre ssion is re ally hard on this m otor. W e are going to fire the m otor up on 48 idf carbs first, and m aybe run it down the track , but the n switch to fue l inje ction afte r. I can't wait to finish this m otor. I've be e n think ing about this k ind of com bo for aboiut 10 ye ars, the n Taylor cam e along. He had the sam e k ind of ide as and want to run in NHR A again, so we k ind of poole d our thoughts and hope fully the thing runs good e nough to m ak e a good showing for VW 's in the door car catagorie s again. More to com e late r... Anthony C hicca He ads Up Pe rform ance
Hi Anthony, I'm curious. W hat is the re ason for the 1" x 1" bar we lde d along the bottom of that he ad? And what are going to do for valve cove rs? I lik e the ide a of going to 48 IDF footprint EFI. Much m ore com pact.
That is the unfinished valve cover rail. It will be profiled later. We will be running either the Autocraft cast valve covers, or a light-weight sheet metal version. Haven't decided yet. The IDF carb is the "Bastard Child" of the Weber line-up. Properly modified they can flow MORE than a 48 IDA. The only way an IDA can beat it is by boring it bigger. But even an IDF can be bored to 50mm. The manifold package of the IDF is also superior to the IDA. It has a straighter shot. No bends equal more flow. Plus the IDF has a better idle circut. To Many pluses for the IDF, I wish they still made them. With that said, I think the injection will still run better than the IDF. More power under the curve=better E.T.s Hopefully! Anthony Chicca Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on February 01, 2008, 18:41:16 PM Are these the new style Autocraft rockers ? Udo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: richie on February 01, 2008, 19:25:39 PM
Q uote from : Udo on Fe bruary 01, 2008, 18:41:16 PM Are the se the ne w style Autocraft rock e rs ? Udo
Heads Up Performance
Udo,it meantions in the first post by Anthony they are component devolopement 1.8/1 rockers :) cheers richie Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on February 02, 2008, 09:20:47 AM
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Hi Richie Autocraft has 1.8 i think :) Udo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: cbigpwr on February 05, 2008, 17:04:05 PM
Q uote from : Udo on Fe bruary 02, 2008, 09:20:47 AM Hi R ichie Autocraft has 1.8 i think :) Udo
Same rockers. They are Componant Development rockers. They are the company that makes the heads and rockers. Roger @ Heads Up and Mike @ Autocraft are parteners on the progect (put the money up for the project). Both Heads Up and Autocraft sell the same parts. We have heads, rockers (1.55, 1.7, and 1.8) valve covers. Manifolds are coming soon. These rockers change the geometry of the pushrod in relation to the lifter. The pushrod and the lifter are now straight in-line. I don't think this motor (Taylors 1600) would be so sucessful if it wasn't for these rockers. As you cut the lenghth of the motor down (bring the head closer to the case) this angle on the pushrod gets more extreme. Anthony Heads Up Performance Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Casey on February 05, 2008, 18:26:00 PM Sshhhheeeessshhhhh Anthony, I never saw those babies over there! How long do build a duplicate set? 1 week? Come on I know you can pull it off! This will be the second time. ;) ;D. You da man! I'm VERY close by the way. Going in on Fri. Later Casey. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Project_X on February 06, 2008, 04:56:12 AM That motor is awesome.When I first got my bug I was asking about possibilities of building a 1600cc in stock bore/stroke form but I was told it would be a waste of time,build a stroker or go home... I love the fact these motors can rev high.I like that part, but how reliable are they with the new technology?I read this whole thread, and seen that back then they grenaded after a certain amount of time but was that with just strictly racing them?If I was to build or attempt to build one, it would be a daily driver for me so would that be bad or good?I like the idea of a high strung 1600cc with 10:1 cr, capable of reving to at least 7k.Id be happy if it made 110-130hp , after all these are small mouse motors.Would they be as quick as the strokers being they have less torque?Sorry about all the questions I'm just really curious about thinking outside the box since I dont get along well inside the box... ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Project_X on February 06, 2008, 17:15:52 PM Can you guys tell me what its costing you guys to build a mouse motor?I'd be happy with around 110-120hp out a 1600,1641,1679.High revs sound cool to me..LOL Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on February 06, 2008, 19:18:21 PM
Q uote from : Proje ct_X on Fe bruary 06, 2008, 17:15:52 PM C an you guys te ll m e what its costing you guys to build a m ouse m otor?I'd be happy with around 110-120hp out a 1600,1641,1679.High re vs sound cool to m e ..LO L
An engine like this would be not so expensive . 110-120 hp is easy to get . Depends on what new parts you want , case , heads .. Udo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Project_X on February 07, 2008, 06:30:20 AM
Q uote from : Udo on Fe bruary 06, 2008, 19:18:21 PM Q uote from : Proje ct_X on Fe bruary 06, 2008, 17:15:52 PM C an you guys te ll m e what its costing you guys to build a m ouse m otor?I'd be happy with around 110-120hp out a 1600,1641,1679.High re vs sound cool to m e ..LO L An e ngine lik e this would be not so e x pe nsive . 110-120 hp is e asy to ge t . De pe nds on what ne w parts you want , case , he ads .. Udo
I was told it would be a waste of time an money, is this true?Also I notice you guys use lightweight parts, Ive looked a few up like Jet rods,7lb flywheels, there really pricey.Can I get away with a 12lb flywheel,lightweight lifters, and whatever else I can get on a budget. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on February 07, 2008, 09:32:14 AM To get 120 horses you don't need a single lightweight part. You can get away with stock rods and a Mahle 94mm cylinder kit. What you do need is a pair of nice heads in combination with a good cam. 8) I forgot to mention that I was talking about a 1915, or a "non stroker" Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on February 07, 2008, 20:15:50 PM
Q uote from : JHU on Fe bruary 07, 2008, 09:32:14 AM To ge t 120 horse s you don't ne e d a single lightwe ight part. You can ge t away with stock rods and a Mahle cylinde r k it. W hat you do ne e d is a pair of nice he ads in com bination with a good cam . 8)
That is all !! You are right Jon Udo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
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Post by: Project_X on February 08, 2008, 03:19:09 AM
Yup Ive been told many times its all in the heads, but was just curious.Whats it costing on average to build these little mouse motors(ie 1600,1603,1641,1679,1699)?Trying my best to stay on topic (sorry, Im just amazed about these little mouse motors)but from what your saying I can build any of those sizes up to 110-120hp.Also Ive read posts before that these motors dont make enough power to move until after 4000rpms, I hope thats not true because I want one of these for a street motor.Thinking maybe 40IDF's,FK8 cam with 1.4:1 rockers, 1.5" merged header, 044 heads from CB Performance, and some type of ignition. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Bruce on February 08, 2008, 07:37:47 AM IMO, you are looking in the wrong direction. The most reliable hp is displacement. Getting 120hp out of a 1600 NA is not easy. Don't believe anyone that says it is. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Torben Alstrup on February 08, 2008, 10:53:59 AM In my time I have built a couple of these small engine with that hp range. 120 hp out of a 1600 cc for daily use is stretching it, witout saying impossible. 1680 cc. with 117 - 120 usable hp is not a problem. The few extra cc. helps making it driveable at all rpm. There are a couple of solutions. I have my own of course. ::) I have a 1600 cc 110 hp version that works very well on the street, and a (rpm limited) 100 hp versoin built mainly out of stock parts. The key is to make the engine pull torque soon enough to make it decent in the lower rpm. Its absolutely possible, but you have to think a little different than mainstream. But from there to JPMs or Autocrafts heads & engines is a giant leap. T Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on February 08, 2008, 11:10:40 AM I have modified my post as it was unclear at one point, I was talking about a "non-stroker" (1915) not a 1600. Thats why I mention the cylinder kit. Bruce, I guess anyone that has seen this thread understands that "good heads" is beyond regular "good heads". Nothing is Easy, but a having the help of a head porter makes it easyer, in my opinion. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Zach Gomulka on February 08, 2008, 17:44:12 PM My daily driver 1600 went 14.8's @ 88mph. The car was light (noisy), and had close 3-4. But it was a simple and relatively inexpensive combo that worked very well. Someday Ill build a "clone" with the new tricks Ive learned :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Bruce on February 09, 2008, 04:28:44 AM
Q uote from : JHU on Fe bruary 08, 2008, 11:10:40 AM Bruce , I gue ss anyone that has se e n this thre ad unde rstands that "good he ads" is be yond re gular "good he ads". Nothing is Easy, but a having the he lp of a he ad porte r m ak e s it e asye r, in m y opinion.
I agree with that. For Project X, if you build a 2110 with really badly ported heads, it will still make at least 100-110hp, and be very easy to build. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Project_X on February 09, 2008, 06:54:10 AM
Q uote from : Bruce on Fe bruary 09, 2008, 04:28:44 AM Q uote from : JHU on Fe bruary 08, 2008, 11:10:40 AM Bruce , I gue ss anyone that has se e n this thre ad unde rstands that "good he ads" is be yond re gular "good he ads". Nothing is Easy, but a having the he lp of a he ad porte r m ak e s it e asye r, in m y opinion. I agre e with that. For Proje ct X, if you build a 2110 with re ally badly porte d he ads, it will still m ak e at le ast 100-110hp, and be ve ry e asy to build.
Yeah understand a 2L stroker can make that hp easy but Id rather have something smaller but capable of 100hp at least.You know, the little motor that nobody expects to be quicker than it looks, like that 1603cc, what kind of money has that guy put into it, anyone know? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Tom G. on February 09, 2008, 09:17:25 AM
Q uote from : Proje ct_X on Fe bruary 09, 2008, 06:54:10 AM Q uote from : Bruce on Fe bruary 09, 2008, 04:28:44 AM Q uote from : JHU on Fe bruary 08, 2008, 11:10:40 AM Bruce , I gue ss anyone that has se e n this thre ad unde rstands that "good he ads" is be yond re gular "good he ads". Nothing is Easy, but a having the he lp of a he ad porte r m ak e s it e asye r, in m y opinion. I agre e with that. For Proje ct X, if you build a 2110 with re ally badly porte d he ads, it will still m ak e at le ast 100-110hp, and be ve ry e asy to build. Ye ah unde rstand a 2L strok e r can m ak e that hp e asy but Id rathe r have som e thing sm alle r but capable of 100hp at le ast.You k now, the little m otor that nobody e x pe cts to be quick e r than it look s, lik e that 1603cc, what k ind of m one y has that guy put into it, anyone k now?
expensive.....Heads and pistons are the most expensive parts...i think within all parts,+ his own working time it will be 4000-5000 for this engine.... Bye Tom Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on February 09, 2008, 11:12:23 AM
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For this horesepower it is not woth to build a 2,0 ltr engine . So stay at your 1600 or max. 1776 . It is very easy and cheep to built and both make very good street horepower . Udo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Project_X on February 09, 2008, 15:56:18 PM
Q uote from : Udo on Fe bruary 09, 2008, 11:12:23 AM Q uote from : Proje ct_X on Fe bruary 09, 2008, 06:54:10 AM Q uote from : Bruce on Fe bruary 09, 2008, 04:28:44 AM Q uote from : JHU on Fe bruary 08, 2008, 11:10:40 AM Bruce , I gue ss anyone that has se e n this thre ad unde rstands that "good he ads" is be yond re gular "good he ads". Nothing is Easy, but a having the he lp of a he ad porte r m ak e s it e asye r, in m y opinion. I agre e with that. For Proje ct X, if you build a 2110 with re ally badly porte d he ads, it will still m ak e at le ast 100-110hp, and be ve ry e asy to build. Ye ah unde rstand a 2L strok e r can m ak e that hp e asy but Id rathe r have som e thing sm alle r but capable of 100hp at le ast.You k now, the little m otor that nobody e x pe cts to be quick e r than it look s, lik e that 1603cc, what k ind of m one y has that guy put into it, anyone k now? For this hore se powe r it is not woth to build a 2,0 ltr e ngine . So stay at your 1600 or m ax . 1776 . It is ve ry e asy and che e p to built and both m ak e ve ry good stre e t hore powe r . Udo
ok, cool thanks, also anyone know what 4000-5000 is in American money by chance?LOL Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Frallan on February 09, 2008, 19:26:35 PM 4000 to 5000 is 5700 usd to 7250 USD according to international rates of today. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Bruce on February 09, 2008, 23:11:32 PM
There's nothing wrong with wanting to do something different. But when you are on a tight budget, you won't get there. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Bruce on February 09, 2008, 23:28:09 PM
Q uote from : Udo on Fe bruary 09, 2008, 11:12:23 AM For this hore se powe r it is not woth to build a 2,0 ltr e ngine . So stay at your 1600 or m ax . 1776 . It is ve ry e asy and che e p to built and both m ak e ve ry good stre e t hore powe r . Udo
A 2 liter is gonna cost you $250 more to build than a 1776. What's the big deal about that? Why don't you let us in on how easy and cheap it is to build a 1600 that outputs more than double the stock hp. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on February 10, 2008, 00:34:02 AM JPM built this engine to test what could be done with cheap part in combination with know how. As he does his own heads this has for him been a very cheap, as for the rest of us we have to add the cost of having a pair of head built. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Project_X on February 10, 2008, 04:35:45 AM 5700 bucks to build a 1603cc to get 176hp? Is that what your saying it would cost to build that motor? JPM is in Sweden right? So if I got heads from him and that exhaust it would cost double since IM in Florida...umm holy crap LOL Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on February 10, 2008, 12:13:15 PM
Q uote from : Bruce on Fe bruary 09, 2008, 23:28:09 PM Q uote from : Udo on Fe bruary 09, 2008, 11:12:23 AM For this hore se powe r it is not woth to build a 2,0 ltr e ngine . So stay at your 1600 or m ax . 1776 . It is ve ry e asy and che e p to built and both m ak e ve ry good stre e t hore powe r . Udo A 2 lite r is gonna cost you $250 m ore to build than a 1776. W hat's the big de al about that? W hy don't you le t us in on how e asy and che ap it is to build a 1600 that outputs m ore than double the stock hp.
Where do you get those cheap cranks , clearance the case ... ? Everybody has his own experience , i only work with good quality cranks like scat , okrasa , gene berg . Udo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Bruce on February 11, 2008, 00:29:19 AM CB sells a perfectly good forged chromoly crank for $289. Why don't you tell us how much you would charge for a turn-key 1600 that makes 120hp? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: stealth67vw on February 11, 2008, 01:36:18 AM
Q uote from : Udo
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W he re do you ge t those che ap crank s , cle arance the case ... ?
Hard to justify spending $150-200 for DPR or DMS stock c/w crank when you can find cheap Chinese 78-84 strokers for $199.00. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=388182 Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on February 11, 2008, 07:31:33 AM
Q uote from : Bruce on Fe bruary 11, 2008, 00:29:19 AM C B se lls a pe rfe ctly good forge d chrom oly crank for $289. W hy don't you te ll us how m uch you would charge for a turn-k e y 1600 that m ak e s 120hp?
A longblock would be something about 3000 euros , depends on what new parts you want . And a 2 liter starts at 4000 . Udo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on February 11, 2008, 22:46:53 PM Hi there! Finally I got the time to put the "Mouse Motor" on the dyno and this is what I see. POWER:138,8kW 188.7hp/7670rpm TORQUE:192.4Nm/6100rpm(138,7lbs) The ignition and fuel curve is optimized, the main venturies is 37mm, main jets is 145 the air is 160 idle jets are 65f10 and the E-tubes are F7.I will go bigger with the main venturies, the first step will be 39mm, this will hopefully raise the output alittle bit more and get me closer to the calculated max power rpm(8000).I will post a video later. Talk to you later Johannes
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: folkevogn on February 11, 2008, 23:02:59 PM Holy crap!!!!!! :o :o :o :o to me, that is taking it to the next level! I`m going insane here, I desperatly want to hear the motor run, please post a clip off the dyno run NOW ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I`m speachless!your are making the same power numbers in your tiny little 1603ccm mousemotor as I do with my 2332ccm Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Zach Gomulka on February 12, 2008, 00:04:06 AM That is awesome. I never dreamed you could get those kind of numbers out of 1600cc. Even the torque figure looks very respectable. If you could, Id love to see a dyno graph to show the power and torque curves. What is the compression ratio?? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on February 12, 2008, 00:57:37 AM "your are making the same power numbers in your tiny little 1603ccm mousemotor as I do with my 2332ccm" Exactly dude ;) :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Torben Alstrup on February 12, 2008, 01:04:15 AM
Q uote from : Johanne s Pe rsson on Fe bruary 11, 2008, 22:46:53 PM Hi the re ! Finally I got the tim e to put the "Mouse Motor" on the dyno and this is what I se e . PO W ER :138,8k W 188.7hp/7670rpm TO R Q UE:192.4Nm /6100rpm (138,7lbs) The ignition and fue l curve is optim ize d, the m ain ve nturie s is 37m m , m ain je ts is 145 the air is 160 idle je ts are 65f10 and the E-tube s are F7.I will go bigge r with the m ain ve nturie s, the first ste p will be 39m m , this will hope fully raise the output alittle bit m ore and ge t m e close r to the calculate d m ax powe r rpm (8000).I will post a vide o late r. Talk to you late r Johanne s
:o AAAALLRIIIGHT !!!! Impressive numbers. Where does it begin to make power ? Torben Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on February 12, 2008, 01:31:44 AM Johannes told me on the phone tonight that the engine has a very wide power band, in fact he compares it with a Japanese motorcycle. ;D ;D ;D ;D I knew from past experiences with JPM that he delivers when he says he's going to do something, but I confess to having thought that this was a far stretch. The man knows his stuff! Can't wait for that video!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Frallan on February 12, 2008, 02:23:16 AM
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A little bit of JPM "bragging" ...I like to brag about you Johannes. I subscribe to some Formula one and High tech racing magazines, in them I could read last year that the supercar manufacturer Koenigsegg are getting in to racing. Not just world record runs but real racing. It was mentioned about some few companies that would assist them in further development of the car and on the engine company, JPM was mentioned. I like that. Anyway, Congratulations Johannes to the new Mouse concept! Nice move, nice touch to the all of us in the ACVW comunity. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Project_X on February 12, 2008, 02:50:20 AM
Q uote from : Johanne s Pe rsson on Fe bruary 11, 2008, 22:46:53 PM Hi the re ! Finally I got the tim e to put the "Mouse Motor" on the dyno and this is what I se e . PO W ER :138,8k W 188.7hp/7670rpm TO R Q UE:192.4Nm /6100rpm (138,7lbs) The ignition and fue l curve is optim ize d, the m ain ve nturie s is 37m m , m ain je ts is 145 the air is 160 idle je ts are 65f10 and the E-tube s are F7.I will go bigge r with the m ain ve nturie s, the first ste p will be 39m m , this will hope fully raise the output alittle bit m ore and ge t m e close r to the calculate d m ax powe r rpm (8000).I will post a vide o late r. Talk to you late r Johanne s
Thats awesome! Now send it to Or. Florida and I'll be happy to test it in my bug....course I wouldnt ship it back to you ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: eugene on February 12, 2008, 04:36:07 AM I think that Johannes build has shown what the modern understanding of flow, chamber shape, compression ratios, part limitations, coupled to engineering and practical knowledge really mean. The beauty of the build is also in use of original parts that the vw have somewhat rejected as unworthy. The hot roders spirit we admire, is back with such builds. Bravo! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on February 12, 2008, 09:07:10 AM
Q uote from : e uge ne on Fe bruary 12, 2008, 04:36:07 AM I think that Johanne s build has shown what the m ode rn unde rstanding of flow, cham be r shape , com pre ssion ratios, part lim itations, couple d to e ngine e ring and practical k nowle dge re ally m e an. The be auty of the build is also in use of original parts that the vw have som e what re je cte d as unworthy. The hot rode rs spirit we adm ire , is back with such builds. Bravo!
I think you hit the nail on the head with your first post here on The Lounge and I totally agree - congrats with the impressive results Johannes! Best rgs Kalle Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Tobi/DFL on February 12, 2008, 09:59:45 AM Im simply overwhelmed by those numbers! Thanks a lot for sharing so much knowledge with us, Johannes! Tobi Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Tom G. on February 12, 2008, 12:50:14 PM I can only repeat...AWESOME....117 HP/L....... Tom Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Trond Dahl on February 12, 2008, 13:26:58 PM Don't ask why I didn't do this before, but the info and result on this thread is worth a lot! but the least I can do is make this thread a sticky. Congratulations Johannes with the result (so far) Trond:-) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: n2o on February 12, 2008, 16:01:57 PM Some years back, I read in HotVW about an engine builder contest. This was won by Pat Downs from CB-Performance. I do not recal the numbers from that contest, but with 117hp/liter (1603ccm) I would imagine that this mouse motor would have been noticed. Would we see 120hp/liter when the chokes is optimized?? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Project_X on February 12, 2008, 16:28:23 PM Id love to have a motor like this but I dont think my budget would allow it.MMMM... could you imagin taking that motor in a bug to the strip and beating a v8 LOL or some japanese car? So Johannes how long would this motor last?Also when are the 86mm pistons going to be available in America for us to use ;) ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jim Ratto on February 12, 2008, 17:52:24 PM
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Johannes, congratulations on your accomplishment, it is great to see somebody achieve such a high specific output from a VW, especially one that accomodates so many factory-style parts (like the cylinder heads). I was enrolled in a camshaft-theory class back in 2000, and was working on a project of 2332cc to make 100hp/liter and run on street, but never achieved my goal (I think 100hp/liter with large single cylinder displacement would be too difficult to do with VW-style heads, etc, maybe things have changed...) If you don't mind sharing, when you se the intake centerline on your motor, where did you set it to? On street motors with 260' + @.050" I have been setting them @ 104 ATDC, because I was taught this increases throttle response and build cylinder pressure faster. I don't have hard data saying this is what to do, only what I was taught. Do you mind sharing your thoughts on the cam in your engine, and where you set it up at? Again, congratulations. :) Jim Ratto Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on February 12, 2008, 21:00:36 PM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9868ihgGVk8 The dyno pull is from 2500rpm to 8500rpm in fourth gear (60-190km/h or 37,5mph-118,75mph). (http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/039.jpg) Today I just had to finish the "Mouse Motor" project and changed the main venturies from 37 to 39mm. The engine responded really good with an improvement from 138,8-143,3kW or 188,7-194,9hp the torque increased from 191-195Nm (138-141lbs). The attiude of this engine is really something, nice and smoth at idle and kicks really hard if you want it to. There would probably be some more improvements with bigger venturies but as it is now there is no bog or hassitation between low and high circuit and as this engine is to be used on the street I prefere to have it like this.When using too big venturies you often notice a hassitation between low and high circuit even sometimes with the third progression hole modification. The purple curve is engine power and the green curve is wheel power. Thank you guys for all possitive input and if you have questions do not hassitate to ask. We are lucky to have an outstanding forum like this. Regards Johannes
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Rasser on February 12, 2008, 22:03:11 PM IMFUCKINGPRESSIVE!!!! Amazing numbers Johannes, congrats. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Kiel on February 12, 2008, 22:05:39 PM Super.................. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: JS on February 12, 2008, 22:23:37 PM Looking forward to see this one on SCC!!! ;)
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: dirk zeyen on February 12, 2008, 22:30:10 PM restpect!!! you are the "head-guru" ;D so much flow with small valves! i think the right combination of all the engineparts makes the "little difference". dirk zeyen Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jim Ratto on February 12, 2008, 22:45:30 PM hi Again, Johannes.... also, aside from your thoughts on cam timing, what did you select for emulsion tubes and jets for this last dyno session? Thanks, Jim Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on February 12, 2008, 23:13:07 PM I knew these little "mouse motors" could make the BIG numbers ;) :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: eugene on February 13, 2008, 02:28:54 AM How goes the old saying about displacement? ;) I have a question for Johannes (or others) if you don't mind to share. How do you determine the intake and exhaust tuning length (second and third order)? I have tried to use a equation from an engineering book but the numbers you gave in some other post didn't wont to fall out. I know that the the variables are the cam intake/exhaust duration, rpm-time, gas velocity and speed of sound but i apparently i'm missing something. Congrats Johannes on the results. Outstanding work!
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Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Project_X on February 13, 2008, 04:49:04 AM
Awesome just awesome...I love it.Any idea what this baby would do at the track just for kicks? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: n2o on February 13, 2008, 06:35:38 AM .....121.58hp/liter...
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: folkevogn on February 13, 2008, 07:45:13 AM
Q uote from : Proje ct_X on Fe bruary 13, 2008, 04:49:04 AM Awe som e just awe som e ...I love it.Any ide a what this baby would do at the track just for k ick s?
JHU told me that JPM had done some calculations with the number he had from the first dyno pull where it "only" made 188hp ;D and with a 730kg car(included driver) the calculation said 11.97 on the 1/4 mile. Thats pretty fast with a 1603ccm!But thats just theory, the only way to find out is to race it 8) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: folkevogn on February 13, 2008, 09:00:30 AM Once again Johannes, just awsome! Looking at the photo of the power graph, it seems to be two small bumps in the curve. Is this where the rpm is between 1th and 2nd order, 2nd and 3th order? or is there another reason? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on February 13, 2008, 10:38:22 AM Hi Jim, The camshaft is a fk45@108 and I dailed it 105deg intake centerline, too much advance will hurt the the overall performance because the exhaust changes too in a negative way and at a point the intakevalve will close too early and you lose a lot of top end power.I use to look at the closing point for the intake valve regarding to how good the heads are and the displacement of the engine, too late closing point will hurt the all over performance.If your heads are good you can close the intake valve earlier without losing top end power because the heads will still keep the VE high as the rpm goes up and your midrange will be superior.So from my experience the hardest part in chosing a cam is to determine when the intake valve should close, when you have desided the closing point chose duration so the intake valve does not hit the piston at tdc including the depth of your valvepockets. Hopefully you see my point. With the 39mm venturies the mains are 160,air180 and still F7 E-tubes, at low and midrange the A/F is too fat that is why there are small bumps around 4-5k rpm, maybe with F-16 or F-9 E-tubes I can get rid of those.The F-7 E-tube is a very fat tube at low and mid range the F-16 or 9 is a lot leaner. Regards Johannes Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on February 13, 2008, 13:08:25 PM There is something very appealing with these small capacity engines. This might be optimised far beyond what you can buy of the shelf today, but still I think it opens our minds to see the possibilities out there. First of all the Weber 48 is a HUGE performance carburator to this engine, also the "mandatory" counterweighted crank is stiffer. I bet there is a golden halfway between, cost physical size, performance and COOLNESS, and this engine can't be very far from it. 40x35,5 valves and 195 horses from 1603 cc?! I want more of these threads!! ;) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Project_X on February 13, 2008, 15:22:10 PM 195hp...very impressive, how much more are gonna go? LOL For the pistons, if one was to build one similar to this motor or close could the Porsche 356 86mm pistons be used?Also since a 7lb flywheel cost 700.00 here where I'm at, could a 11-12.5lb lightened flywheel be used? And could any head porter do a 043 head like this with the welds, and the FK45 cam, you have is a engle cam or was it a modified one.I seen on the first page you have a cam with 2 profiles I guess, if I understand that, not sure. Thanks Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on February 13, 2008, 15:29:18 PM Hi Eugene, I use to tune on third order up to 8000rpm and then the second above 8000rpm. Using the second order on low rpm gives you very long manifolds which many times decreases the total flow of the intake system. Third order:2460000/rpm=total intake length(mm). Second order:3350000/rpm=total intake length(mm). The length on the "Mouse Motor"s manifold are about 15mm too long from calculation that is one reason it peaks at lower rpm. Regards Johannes Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Zach Gomulka on February 13, 2008, 15:36:53 PM Holy crap! So let me get this straight... is this 195 wheel horsepower??? or is it corrected flywheel horsepower??
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And also, whats the compression??? Good work! ;) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Roman on February 13, 2008, 15:47:47 PM
Impressive to say the least. It is corrected flywheel horsepower. The rear wheel horsepower is "only" 180.5! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Rune on February 13, 2008, 15:52:46 PM
Q uote from : Zach Gom ulk a on Fe bruary 13, 2008, 15:36:53 PM And also, whats the com pre ssion???
The original spec list on page two says a compression of 12,0:1. Not sure if this is what it ended up with. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on February 13, 2008, 16:42:00 PM "We are lucky to have an outstanding forum like this. Regards Johannes" No - we`re lucky to have you around sharing you knowlegde with the rest of us. Truly amazing and insipiring - thanks Johannes! Best rgs Kalle Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on February 13, 2008, 16:48:06 PM Hi Zack, The comp ratio ended up at 12,32:1 and the power is corrected(DIN) at flywheel(as Roman said) about 1% less than the late SAE hp. It is thanks to welded chambers otherwise it would be really hard to achive. Regards Johannes Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Harry/FDK on February 13, 2008, 17:29:26 PM
Q uote from : Be e tle Bug on Fe bruary 13, 2008, 16:42:00 PM "We are lucky to have an outstanding forum like this. Regards Johannes" No - we `re luck y to have you around sharing you k nowle gde with the re st of us. Truly am azing and insipiring - thank s Johanne s! Be st rgs Kalle
ABSOLUTELY! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Airspeed on February 13, 2008, 17:45:47 PM
Q uote from : Johanne s Pe rsson on Fe bruary 12, 2008, 21:00:36 PM (http://www.v-dubs.no/jhu/proje ct/jpm /039.jpg) if you have que stions do not hassitate to ask .
Johannes, I am very curieus about the small (gearbox and driveline) loss you have over the flywheel hp: Only 11.4 kW on a total of 143.3 kW! Thats just 8% :o The 132.4 is at the rear wheel, so with a 'normal' loss of about 15-18% the FWhp would have been (is) even (much) more... ;D Do you have extremely good gearbox oil or something that explains this? Tnx, Walter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jim Ratto on February 13, 2008, 17:49:43 PM
Q uote from : Johanne s Pe rsson on Fe bruary 13, 2008, 10:38:22 AM Hi Jim , The cam shaft is a fk 45@108 and I daile d it 105de g intak e ce nte rline , too m uch advance will hurt the the ove rall pe rform ance be cause the e x haust change s too in a ne gative way and at a point the intak e valve will close too e arly and you lose a lot of top e nd powe r.I use to look at the closing point for the intak e valve re garding to how good the he ads are and the displace m e nt of the e ngine , too late closing point will hurt the all ove r pe rform ance .If your he ads are good you can close the intak e valve e arlie r without losing top e nd powe r be cause the he ads will still k e e p the VE high as the rpm goe s up and your m idrange will be supe rior.So from m y e x pe rie nce the harde st part in chosing a cam is to de te rm ine whe n the intak e valve should close , whe n you have de side d the closing point chose duration so the intak e valve doe s not hit the piston at tdc including the de pth of your valve pock e ts. Hope fully you se e m y point. W ith the 39m m ve nturie s the m ains are 160,air180 and still F7 E-tube s, at low and m idrange the A/F is too fat that is why the re are sm all bum ps around 4-5k rpm , m aybe with F16 or F-9 E-tube s I can ge t rid of those .The F-7 E-tube is a ve ry fat tube at low and m id range the F-16 or 9 is a lot le ane r. R e gards Johanne s
Thanks Johannes, interesting way to look at cam timing. I forget the lesson I was taught about cams, but there was a hierarchy of valve timing events that related to the 4 strokes of the motor.... I think # 1 event considered, according to class was exhaust opening, for "blowdown" but I don't remember, so obviously, I don't use that lesson for cam decision. The thoughts behind the intake center @ 104 was to get valve full open at piston position of fastest acceleration. I have noticed something with FK45 (I run same cam in my 94mm x 78mm, 541cc per cyl) that I haven't experienced with other cams, in engine response, and I don't know if it is my timing of cam or the cam itself.
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A topic for another thread. :) Jim Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: nicolas on February 13, 2008, 20:29:21 PM very nice accomplishment. hats off for you!
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Trond Dahl on February 13, 2008, 20:35:28 PM
Q uote from : Be e tle Bug on Fe bruary 13, 2008, 16:42:00 PM "We are lucky to have an outstanding forum like this. Regards Johannes" No - we `re luck y to have you around sharing you k nowle gde with the re st of us. Truly am azing and insipiring - thank s Johanne s! Be st rgs Kalle
I second that, the forum is just the facilitator... Its the people that make it what it is... so thank YOU guys Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Gabetion2000 on February 15, 2008, 04:10:30 AM Hello everybody, I am a first time poster in the cal look lounge. And I have to say that this forum is awesome. Especially this thread. I have alway been interested in mouse motors ,and planned on building one in the future. Awesome info guys. Keep it up. Gabe Scott Ventura,CA USA Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on February 15, 2008, 09:01:45 AM
Q uote from : Gabe tion2000 on Fe bruary 15, 2008, 04:10:30 AM He llo e ve rybody, I am a first tim e poste r in the cal look lounge . And I have to say that this forum is awe som e . Espe cially this thre ad. I have alway be e n inte re ste d in m ouse m otors ,and planne d on building one in the future . Awe som e info guys. Ke e p it up. Gabe Scott Ve ntura,C A USA
Hi Gabe and welcome to The Lounge! Don`t forget to keep the rest of us in the loop when you start building your mouse engine. Best rgs BeetleBug Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on February 15, 2008, 09:44:18 AM
Q uote from : Johanne s Pe rsson on Fe bruary 13, 2008, 10:38:22 AM W he n you have de cide d the closing point chose duration so the intak e valve doe s not hit the piston at tdc including the de pth of your valve pock e ts.
Could you explain this for us dummies, Johannes? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on February 15, 2008, 12:08:50 PM Hello there, JHU, I ment that you should open the intake valve early because you want as much flow available as possible when the piston accelerates down(more flow area under the curve), but there are mekanical limitations you have to deal with(valve hitting piston). I decided to cloce the intake valve 57deg abdc @ 0,05", then the fk45 became a good choise together with 1,55:1 rockers. I am close to 6mm lift @ tdc so the valvepockets are pritty deep. Maybe I am not clear enought ,please let me know. Regads Johannes Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on February 15, 2008, 12:39:20 PM That helped quite a bit, thanks. :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Eddie on February 15, 2008, 17:09:50 PM Damn I speechless and that doesn t happen that often. Very very cool and that with stock parts appart from the pistons.. ...... Where can I bring mine 1600............ ;) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jim Ratto on February 15, 2008, 17:34:58 PM
Q uote from : Gabe tion2000 on Fe bruary 15, 2008, 04:10:30 AM He llo e ve rybody,
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I am a first tim e poste r in the cal look lounge . And I have to say that this forum is awe som e . Espe cially this thre ad. I have alway be e n inte re ste d in m ouse m otors ,and planne d on building one in the future . Awe som e info guys. Ke e p it up. Gabe Scott Ve ntura,C A USA
Wow... a neighbor...I'm in Simi. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on February 18, 2008, 22:35:49 PM Johannes, As suggested on here many times already great effort with the motor, and some really interesting insight, but best of all, its great to see someone actually doing it, rather than just talking about it. I was wondering what fuel you were using as I see you will be running the motor on the street with the CR set at 12.3:1, also how do you find the cooling with such a high CR on the street? Thanks again for you part in a great thread Peter
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on February 19, 2008, 09:10:33 AM Hi Peter, Good to hear that you like the project. I use our best pump gas "V-Power" from Shell gas stations, Shell says 99 octane. When you are using a smaller diameter piston the heat transfer thrue the piston rings to the cylinder are better than with a bigger piston. The area of a circle increases by the square, the circumference does not, that is why a smaller piston can use higher CR. I always use the cooling fan from a 1303 bug then you need a really good oil cooler with electrical fan and all your cooling tins has to fit to 100%, no leakage. Regards Johannes
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Harry/FDK on February 19, 2008, 17:48:43 PM Fantastic Project Johannes, Youre a hard working artist ! BTW, maybe you have seen the Topic: Drilling Your Heads (Cooling Fins), by me dummy. Do You have experimented with this ? Or maybe share your thoughts ? Thanks, Harry Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: sonic on February 22, 2008, 18:40:35 PM Its nearly unbeliveble Johannes Could sombody go there to witness this , longlivity and torque must be hurting , live in Baastad from time to time , like to visit ... Its more effective than a 1000 RR bike , like whatch that.. Reg Erich. "lot more than impressed"...
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: speedwell on February 22, 2008, 22:07:46 PM how does it cost for a similar motor ??? just simple question ::) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on February 23, 2008, 02:38:28 AM Yeah Johannes lets have a rough idea of hours/cost involved ??? ;) :) I would REALLY like to know how many hours went into those heads ;) :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on February 26, 2008, 08:26:47 AM Hi there, I will soon post a list with the parts used in the "Mouse Motor" and prices. Monkiboy, I have spent between 40 to 50 hours on the heads from start to finish including flow tests and welding. Regards Johannes Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Type1/DVK on February 26, 2008, 09:48:56 AM looking forward to it! (and many others i think ;)) a whole week in the heads :o
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Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on February 26, 2008, 18:44:41 PM
Q uote from : Johanne s Pe rsson on Fe bruary 26, 2008, 08:26:47 AM Hi the re , I will soon post a list with the parts use d in the "Mouse Motor" and price s. Monk iboy, I have spe nt be twe e n 40 to 50 hours on the he ads from start to finish including flow te sts and we lding. R e gards Johanne s
Hi Johannes For German street use i would relocate the spark plugs . ;) Udo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on February 26, 2008, 22:32:13 PM Hello, Here is the parts list. Most of the parts are from CB performance but some from CSP in Germany, CSP in Sweden and JPM. IDA carb kit 1099,95 Heads 043 bare pair 211,9 CB Ti valves 503,6 OTEVA 75 valve springs 185 JPM ti retainer 173 JPM rockers 1046 Push rods 49,95 Push rod tubes 167 CSP Cam 104 Lifters 22,95 Cam gears Magnum 172 CSP Bearings 39,85 Oil pump 27,95 Pump cover full flow 28 JE pistons 1206 Cylinder kit 165 Fuel pump block off 4,95 009 dist 109,95 Compufire 63,95 Cables 27,95 Valve covers 12,95 Clips 5,95 Gasket kit 9,95 Oil sealing flywheel 3,95 Clutch disc 29,95 Pressure plate Kennedy 180mm 179 Flywheel bolt 56 Deep sump 105 Lash caps 12,95 Pully 18,95 Pully bolt 4,95 Cyl studs 119 Header S&S 1 5/8 332 Old engine 155 Total parts 6454 USD. Hopefully I did not forget too many parts. The time I spent on the total build is aprox 100 hours(night hours). Regards Johannes
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jim Ratto on February 26, 2008, 22:36:22 PM Nice of you to take the time to come up and share the list... thanks Johannes off topic, I am sorry, but could you read my thread in Cal Look section about Porsche valve timing characteristics, powerband, etc? here it is: http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php?topic=4395.0 Thank you Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: richie on February 27, 2008, 05:48:43 AM
Q uote from : Johanne s Pe rsson on Fe bruary 26, 2008, 22:32:13 PM He llo, He re is the parts list. Most of the parts are from C B pe rform ance but som e from C SP in Ge rm any, C SP in Swe de n and JPM. IDA carb k it 1099,95 He ads 043 bare pair 211,9 C B Ti valve s 503,6 O TEVA 75 valve springs 185 JPM ti re taine r 173 JPM rock e rs 1046 Push rods 49,95 Push rod tube s 167 C SP C am 104
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Lifte rs 22,95 C am ge ars Magnum 172 C SP Be arings 39,85 O il pum p 27,95 Pum p cove r full flow 28 JE pistons 1206 C ylinde r k it 165 Fue l pum p block off 4,95 009 dist 109,95 C om pufire 63,95 C able s 27,95 Valve cove rs 12,95 C lips 5,95 Gask e t k it 9,95 O il se aling flywhe e l 3,95 C lutch disc 29,95 Pre ssure plate Ke nne dy 180m m 179 Flywhe e l bolt 56 De e p sum p 105 Lash caps 12,95 Pully 18,95 Pully bolt 4,95 C yl studs 119 He ade r S&S 1 5/8 332 O ld e ngine 155 Total parts 6454 USD. Hope fully I did not forge t too m any parts.
The tim e I spe nt on the total build is aprox 100 hours(night hours). R e gards Johanne s
Wow,there some pricey parts in there for a little 1600 :D
Johannes which lifters did you use at only 22.95?
cheers richie,uk
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on February 27, 2008, 15:49:00 PM Hi Richie, The lifters are std VW part # 1512 at CB. Regards Johannes Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on February 28, 2008, 20:31:28 PM
Q uote from : Jim R atto on Fe bruary 26, 2008, 22:36:22 PM Nice of you to tak e the tim e to com e up and share the list... thank s Johanne s off topic, I am sorry, but could you re ad m y thre ad in C al Look se ction about Porsche valve tim ing characte ristics, powe rband, e tc? he re it is: http://cal-look .no/lounge /inde x .php?topic=4395.0 Thank you
2,0 ltr and 185 hp is the same we had on our last Kfercup circuit engiens . They worked good and the whole race season without problems Udo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: n2o on February 29, 2008, 15:39:50 PM
Q uote from : richie ,uk on Fe bruary 27, 2008, 05:48:43 AM Q uote from : Johanne s Pe rsson on Fe bruary 26, 2008, 22:32:13 PM He llo, He re is the parts list. Most of the parts are from C B pe rform ance but som e from C SP in Ge rm any, C SP in Swe de n and JPM. IDA carb k it 1099,95 He ads 043 bare pair 211,9 C B Ti valve s 503,6 O TEVA 75 valve springs 185 JPM ti re taine r 173 JPM rock e rs 1046 Push rods 49,95 Push rod tube s 167 C SP C am 104 Lifte rs 22,95 C am ge ars Magnum 172 C SP Be arings 39,85 O il pum p 27,95 Pum p cove r full flow 28 JE pistons 1206 C ylinde r k it 165 Fue l pum p block off 4,95 009 dist 109,95 C om pufire 63,95 C able s 27,95 Valve cove rs 12,95 C lips 5,95 Gask e t k it 9,95 O il se aling flywhe e l 3,95 C lutch disc 29,95 Pre ssure plate Ke nne dy 180m m 179 Flywhe e l bolt 56 De e p sum p 105 Lash caps 12,95 Pully 18,95 Pully bolt 4,95 C yl studs 119 He ade r S&S 1 5/8 332 O ld e ngine 155 Total parts 6454 USD. Hope fully I did not forge t too m any parts. The tim e I spe nt on the total build is aprox 100 hours(night hours).
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R e gards Johanne s
W ow,the re som e price y parts in the re for a little 1600 :D
Johanne s which lifte rs did you use at only 22.95?
che e rs richie ,uk
Are lifters normaly expencive? In my engines I use STD lifters (made in mexico), and when used with easy cams (nice ramp open/close) like my fk-98, I do not feel the need for anything else. (BTW its a race engine, maybe street engines need other types of lifter) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on March 03, 2008, 09:32:18 AM Thats exactly it n2o, with K800's you don't need to gamble on lifters, sticking to VW's own.... so am I, until I learn ;D And a race engine has it easy compared to a street engine... CHECK out the mouse in the house!! http://www.griebel.blogspot.com/ (http://www.griebel.blogspot.com/) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: 67-indeed/DVK on March 04, 2008, 00:44:28 AM how about web cams? i read you can't use std lifters with those... ??? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Harry/FDK on March 05, 2008, 16:39:51 PM Webcam with SLR treated Lube-A-Lobes works absolutely perfect for me. (Aircooled.net) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on March 06, 2008, 09:09:27 AM
Q uote from : 67-inde e d/DVK on March 04, 2008, 00:44:28 AM how about we b cam s? i re ad you can't use std lifte rs with those ... ???
Why not? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: 67-indeed/DVK on March 06, 2008, 17:20:51 PM no idea, that's why i'm asking. lately i've come to a conclusion that stock lifters aren't that bad after all ;) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on March 06, 2008, 22:38:32 PM As long as you have enough spring pressure I do think every lifter is good enough. To little and every lifter would pit - no matter what. Best rgs BB Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Breaker Breaker on March 07, 2008, 10:38:25 AM Having just read this thread while eating my cereal at work , i have a massive grin on my face. Well done guys !!! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: n2o on March 07, 2008, 20:30:10 PM
Q uote from : 54caldub on March 07, 2008, 10:38:25 AM Having just re ad this thre ad while e ating m y ce re al at work , i have a m assive grin on m y face . W e ll done guys !!!
That must have been a big bowl of cereal.. ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Breaker Breaker on March 11, 2008, 12:45:04 PM yeah went soggy at the end :) Its a great thread , spoken to my engine builder his voice piked up when i said fancy doing a mouse motor :)
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Roman on May 30, 2008, 19:28:16 PM I was talking to Johannes on tuesday and he was working on the new car with the mouse motor. He planned to be ready to Bug Run in Sweden next weekend. Can't wait to see it! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on May 31, 2008, 00:34:45 AM
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Yes, its going to be some Mouse racing over there!! COOL!! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Rocket-Racing on May 31, 2008, 00:42:20 AM Cool! Can't wait to see it lined up aginst a big cc car and see how it performs. "Are you a mouse or a man?" ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on May 31, 2008, 00:49:42 AM Wonder how much he can shave of his ET with a piece of cheese at the end of the strip?? :P Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Rocket-Racing on May 31, 2008, 02:03:31 AM He only has one car to fear.. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Per Ericson on June 05, 2008, 07:37:11 AM Some pictures taken yesterday at Meca Raceway in Malm (http://www.vwcsp.se/Per/DSC_0048.jpg) Nice interior (http://www.vwcsp.se/Per/DSC_0049.jpg) The mouse motor (http://www.vwcsp.se/Per/DSC_0052.jpg) (http://www.vwcsp.se/Per/DSC_0056.jpg) (http://www.vwcsp.se/Per/DSC_0059.jpg) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on June 05, 2008, 08:15:13 AM The mouse is alive!! Congratulations with your new car Johannes! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Mags on June 05, 2008, 08:30:09 AM Congratulation with new Car Johannes,se you this weekend. Magne Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on June 05, 2008, 09:42:41 AM . Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on June 05, 2008, 09:43:18 AM . Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on June 05, 2008, 09:46:13 AM Now that IS indeed a mouse engine! Congrats with the time slip and the new car! Best rgs BB Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on June 05, 2008, 11:21:51 AM WOW!! 7.45 that is what... a 11.90 or something? See you at the track at BugRun!! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: JS on June 05, 2008, 22:03:09 PM Congratulations with car, timeslip and engine! AMAZING! See you this weekend. :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on June 06, 2008, 08:30:59 AM Hi there, Hope you all are doing well. The day before yesterday I went to Mecca raceway, an 1/8 mile racetrack, with my new car and the Mouse Motor. First pass 7,56s/144.46km/h(90,28mph) second pass 7,45s/146,7km/h(91,68mph), the track conditions were very good. I am now preparing for Bug Run this weekend, hope to see some of you there. BTW I still have a Big Grin from ear to ear in my face. Regards Johannes Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on June 06, 2008, 10:41:03 AM
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WOW that is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL its really good to see a mouse motor running number like that - is this the engine you built and showed on here resently ??? I might be dropping you a line soon about building MY "mouse motor" ;) :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Frallan on June 06, 2008, 23:16:04 PM Hi Johannes! The big grin is on my face too. Congratulations!!! This is fun. Apart from the engine I do love the interior of your car. I intend to do the same of putting in some beutifying stuff. It comes out very good. I have my Tetra Pak friend with an ugly blue Chevelle runing 10-12 rounds down the strip last Wednesday (503 cui / 550 hp injected daily driver, 7.70s) and he was very impressed with these beetles. I guess it was Niclas in Herbie 53 in the other lane? He was so excited about it all that he picked up the phone and briefed me long distance. I am very proud on your behalf. Good luck at BG. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: 58vw on June 08, 2008, 18:34:42 PM awesome job....very nice car to...congrats Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: christophe on June 08, 2008, 20:18:49 PM Well,I guess I'm the first back on the lounge after BugRun. So here is the news.Johannes made a 11,58s run on saturday!!!! Just AMAZING!!! And the car is soooo nice too!! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jesse/DVK on June 08, 2008, 21:04:08 PM A very nice car! In the setup list I see you're using a 180mm flywheel. I'm thinking of buildling myself an engine but everyone advices me a 200mm flywheel. Why did you choose for a 180mm flywheel? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on June 09, 2008, 00:24:53 AM Johannes thanks for MAKING my weekend!! Case: original AS41 Crank:German stock Rods:German stock Pistons:JE 86mm 24mm comp hight Cylinders:Stock 85,5mm honed to 86mm Heads:043 40x35mm valves Compression:12,0:1 Rockers:Jpm two stud 1,5:1 ratio P-rods:Manton 3/8" cromoly Cam:Fk45in/Fk44 ex Cam gears:Magnum Oilpump:26mm Deepsump:1,5lit Flywheel:180mm stock lightend Clutch disc:cush lock Pressure plate:Kennedy Header:Custom made 1 5/8" tuned length Manifolds:Custom made tuned length(second order) Carbs:IDA 48 I don't think anyone on here could belive that this was a recipie for a 11.5 engine.... except you! And it sounds smooth as silk when it runs... :o :o Mouse motor fans out there, keep the dreams alive! 8) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Frallan on June 09, 2008, 01:31:59 AM Thank god you guys are back and give some report fom BG. 11.58s!!! You do not disapoint. That is for sure. This thread and specifically you Johannes is so much fun that I added this infomrtaion and link on both STF and Cal look lounge-drag racing. It is for sure worth sharing to a wider audience. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Frallan on June 09, 2008, 02:35:20 AM 11.58??? I cant melt it. Over breakfast I just did not get it too match. What have you done? 7.5 on the eighth is just barely in to the 11.99 on the quarter. Now the 92 mph indicates you could cut another tenth at MECA on the eigth. 92 mph on the eight could get you in to 11.8 (maybe 11.7) on the quarter if you have an extremely light car but I think you have mentioned around 730 kg and that is 1600lbs.
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Is the 11.58 correct?
Help me understand. You need another 20 hp compared to the 92 mph so have you lowered the weight or what have you done since a week back? Now it will be very interesting to see what mph you had? 112 mph / 180 km/h ? Do you know exact weight of car and yourself? Stupid question. Knowing you, ofcourse you do.
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: dangerous on June 09, 2008, 05:25:44 AM Thanks for the link Frallan! Awesome info. Congrats Johannes, awesome times and effort to see the project through. Love the combo (and 180mm clutch). ;) Please can you re-post the pics of the heads and chambers Johannes? (from a few pages back are not there any more). (http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/New180disc.jpg)
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on June 09, 2008, 08:33:42 AM The web server with the pics on are temporarily down, they are working to get them back up. Sorry Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: ESH on June 09, 2008, 09:11:05 AM That's an impressive time for sure. Looking forward to seeing if you can squeeze any more out of it. 8) monkiboy's 69x101 Angle Flow "mouse motor" should be interesting! :P Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on June 09, 2008, 09:50:41 AM
Q uote from : Mat Sanche z on June 09, 2008, 09:11:05 AM That's an im pre ssive tim e for sure . Look ing forward to se e ing if you can sque e ze any m ore out of it. 8) m onk iboy's 69x 101 Angle Flow "m ouse m otor" should be inte re sting! :P
Hmmm 69x101 interesting :D :D :D I can't wait to see this one run at SCC and have a chat with Johannes ;) :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Rune on June 09, 2008, 15:57:56 PM Congrats Johannes, really cool! Both car and motor are good reflections to the JPM brand, its all second to non! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on June 09, 2008, 20:32:10 PM Hello, Thanks for all "con grats". It has been a really nice weekend with some good 1/4 mile passees with "The Screaming Mouse". First pass went 11,79s/174,00km/h(108,75mph), second pass went 11,58s/177,01km/h(110,63mph) which I have some doubts about. The time seems to be wrong but the speed are correct, it is a pitty because it was my best pass which also shows from the top speed, a realistic time would have been 11,70s. So far the 11,79s is the fastest but maybe I can squeese a little bit more hp from the engine and do some more adjustments to my new car and hopefully cut a tenth or so. Best regards Johannes
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: ugly duckling on June 09, 2008, 23:28:23 PM great effort. preaty sneeky job on that glass front end it almost passes as a oem one. would like to hear the engine up in the rpm im sure it soundes real good. good luck with it and have a good time. congrats. UD. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Tom G. on June 10, 2008, 13:06:07 PM Film, videos :o :o???Someone could post? Johannes you make a great job:-) It is a great research and developement on really highest level ive ever seen..I hope we see us this year....Perhaps i come across to the dynoday..
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Bye Tom Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on June 10, 2008, 13:22:54 PM
". preaty sneeky job on that glass front end it almost passes as a oem one." I was fooled for alittle while too - VERY nice work dude :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Oliver Frey on June 10, 2008, 14:10:59 PM Johannes, Very impressive work. I have followed this thread from the beginning to your very excellent 11.58 accomplishment! I have learned a lot. This project definitely sounds fun. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Frallan on June 12, 2008, 16:18:53 PM How about this turbo mouse? 1641 cc I am impressed. I think of Bob Mc Clurgs 9 s beetle from the 70-80s. The 2007 specs of the Hyper bug-car weight with driver-1835 U.S pounds, 6 inch slicks (not 6-W's)type 1 trans,3.88 R@P stock 69 mm VW 8 dowel crank with welded counterweights 043 heads with dual springs and 1.25 rockers single 40 mm idf carb stock rods MSD ignition 2008 update -Billet heads ,intakes,and pushrod tubes- designed and made by Adam Badgett, driver of the Hyper Bug. who also fabricated the new exhaust system as seen in the last video below. http://youtube.com/watch?v=6oKqSLvbj0M http://youtube.com/watch?v=d2k-guT9VpA http://youtube.com/watch?v=wquvC1jeZQ8&feature=related http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LstJ1c-vi30 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=W5aQXg9orkU&feature=related http://youtube.com/watch?v=D7mJkqcanuU (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/billethead1.jpg) (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/billet2.jpg) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Oliver Frey on June 12, 2008, 16:32:37 PM
Q uote from : Frallan on June 12, 2008, 16:18:53 PM How about this turbo m ouse ? 1641 cc I am im pre sse d. I think of Bob Mc C lurgs 9 s be e tle from the 70-80s. The 2007 spe cs of the Hype r bug-car we ight with drive r-1835 U.S pounds, 6 inch slick s (not 6-W 's)type 1 trans,3.88 R @P stock 69 m m VW 8 dowe l crank with we lde d counte rwe ights 043 he ads with dual springs and 1.25 rock e rs single 40 m m idf carb stock rods MSD ignition 2008 update -Bille t he ads ,intak e s,and pushrod tube s- de signe d and m ade by Adam Badge tt, drive r of the Hype r Bug. who also fabricate d the ne w e x haust syste m as se e n in the last vide o be low. (http://i153.photobuck e t.com /album s/s207/Frallan2/bille the ad1.jpg) (http://i153.photobuck e t.com /album s/s207/Frallan2/bille t2.jpg)
Frallan, I am personal friends with Adam and Freddy Bagget the owners of the Hyberbug. This car is amazing. it runs 6.20's in the 1/8. This year they have made some changes and are still working out the bugs. Adam works for a NASCAR team in the US and is a very talented CNC programmer. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on June 12, 2008, 23:39:41 PM The mouse on the track.... talk about a sweet running engine?! Crank the volume!! http://www.youtube.com/v/v15y0b480GY&hl Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Oliver Frey on June 13, 2008, 03:11:02 AM I'd really like to know how Johannes car is geared. I'm not taking anything away from his accomplishment (hell it's one of the coolest things I've seen in years), but gearing definitely comes into play with such a small engine. Also where is the engine being shifted? In the video it sounds out of this world. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jee Ent. on June 13, 2008, 09:45:08 AM From another angle..
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http://jeeent.blogspot.com/2008/06/bugrun-2008.html Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Zach Gomulka on June 13, 2008, 17:53:15 PM
Damn, I didnt know that was a 'glass front end until UD pointed it out, nice!! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: dangerous on June 14, 2008, 21:46:37 PM
Q uote from : Johanne s Pe rsson on De ce m be r 28, 2007, 00:01:10 AM it has a low ratio transax e l R /P 4.86:1 close ratio with 1.37:1 on the fourth ge ar.The rim s are Saco five bolt and the tire s are M&H 6x 26-15. O n a sm all e ngine , the we ight of the rotating e ngine parts has to be in re lation to the ve hicle we ight and ge aring.
Would love to know the other ratios too!! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on June 16, 2008, 10:38:45 AM Hi there, The ratios in my transaxel is R/P 4,375:1 First 3,44:1 second 2,54:1 third 1,71:1 fourth 1,35:1 The shift point is 8,5k and it never falls under 6k. 6k is at max torque, with this gearing I use the engine between max torque and max power in all four gears, this is of course more important on a "Mouse Motor" than bigger engines. Best regards Johannes
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: dangerous on June 16, 2008, 11:27:32 AM Wow, thanks for sharing Johannes!
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Oliver Frey on June 16, 2008, 13:28:47 PM Hello Johannes, Thank you for sharing! BTW I read that you plan on driving the engine on the street with full tin and cooling. will you be using the red early model or the Super? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Bruce on June 16, 2008, 21:20:31 PM
Q uote from : Johanne s Pe rsson on June 16, 2008, 10:38:45 AM The ratios in m y transax e l is R /P 4,375:1 First 3,44:1 se cond 2,54:1 third 1,71:1 fourth 1,35:1
Do you shift out of 1st before or after the 60' mark? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on June 17, 2008, 07:30:48 AM Hello, Oliver Frey:My blue Super is retierd from the race track and I use it on a daily basis with a 2276,10,6:1 cr,fk 46,MS230 heads,JPM rockers two stud,scat 82 crank china,CB race rods,magnum straight cut,Phyton ex from CSP 45mm(very quiet),Keihin 41mm bike carbs making 222 very drivable hp. My plan is to make the "Screaming Mouse"(red car) street legal for next year and do smaller trips with it , but the priority will be on the drag strip. Bruce:I really do not know if I shift before or after the 60ft, probably after because a pritty long first gear. Regards Johannes Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Frallan on June 18, 2008, 17:30:50 PM I just ran it in Drag racing analyzer and it comes out a shift right around the 60 ft mark or maybe just after at 63 feet with all whatever variables you might have. I still miss the real weight of your car Johannes. Playing a lot with the theoretical tool gives me more hp than what you have indicated, that is if your car isnt even lighter than what has been indicated. I also think we have a slightly wrong indication on Mantorp compared to Meca were you have the 60 ft too and reliable timing. In no way can I simulate and match the Meca performance with Mantorp. In any case, you have a real mighty mouse and you are very skilled in order to go that fast, first time out with new car AND new engine. Not just any engine either but what most of us will agree is fairly new territory. Very few will do that.
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(No, not that small cc engines did not go fast before but you have a new combo that is exceptional. Let me guess that you have a bunch of other improvement ideas that you are burning to test next year?) Keep it up. As you must have noticed I am proud to "brag" about your achievements. It is just fun. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: rebel on June 18, 2008, 18:04:48 PM Hello Johannes, Did you modyfy the VW 69mm crank in any way other than 8 dowelling? I ask, cause I've heard stock cranks are no good for high RPMs... Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Oliver Frey on June 18, 2008, 18:25:26 PM
Q uote from : re be l on June 18, 2008, 18:04:48 PM He llo Johanne s, Did you m odyfy the VW 69m m crank in any way othe r than 8 dowe lling? I ask , cause I've he ard stock crank s are no good for high R PMs...
Counterweighted 69 mm probably. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: JS on June 18, 2008, 22:31:08 PM Original Crank, no counterweights. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on June 18, 2008, 23:00:51 PM I know of an english guys who takes his STOCK VW crank to over 9000rpm ;) :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on June 19, 2008, 10:08:27 AM Hi, The crank in the "MM" is a bone stock one, only 8 dowelled and carefully balanced. Forces created to the crank is from the weight of pistons and con rods, longer stroke and high rpm creates higher G-forces that pulls and bends the crank, and this is no good for the case. The counterweights helps the crank to be straight. The pistons and rods in the "MM" is much lighter than stock which means that the need for counterweights are less, I do not say that you do not need them but you defenetly need them less than with 94mm piston and long stroke. I will show you an example on force created to the crank with a light and heavy piston at the same rpm,stroke and con rod length. Ex:69mm stroke,8500rpm,5.4"rod and 565g piston(std) F=19276N Ex:69mm stroke,8500rpm,5.4"rod and 375g piston(JE) F=12793N As you can see the created force is 50% more with the heavy std piston.To reach 12793N with the 565g piston the rpm is aprox 6800. Keeping the weight down will save your engine and make it last longer with more performance. Regards Johannes Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Rasser on June 19, 2008, 11:14:53 AM
Q uote from : Johanne s Pe rsson on June 19, 2008, 10:08:27 AM Hi, The crank in the "MM" is a bone stock one , only 8 dowe lle d and care fully balance d. Force s cre ate d to the crank is from the we ight of pistons and con rods, longe r strok e and high rpm cre ate s highe r G-force s that pulls and be nds the crank , and this is no good for the case . The counte rwe ights he lps the crank to be straight. The pistons and rods in the "MM" is m uch lighte r than stock which m e ans that the ne e d for counte rwe ights are le ss, I do not say that you do not ne e d the m but you de fe ne tly ne e d the m le ss than with 94m m piston and long strok e . I will show you an e x am ple on force cre ate d to the crank with a light and he avy piston at the sam e rpm ,strok e and con rod le ngth. Ex :69m m strok e ,8500rpm ,5.4"rod and 565g piston(std) F=19276N Ex :69m m strok e ,8500rpm ,5.4"rod and 375g piston(JE) F=12793N As you can se e the cre ate d force is 50% m ore with the he avy std piston.To re ach 12793N with the 565g piston the rpm is aprox 6800. Ke e ping the we ight down will save your e ngine and m ak e it last longe r with m ore pe rform ance . R e gards Johanne s
You make it all sound so simple ;-) impressive stuff for sure! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Oliver Frey on June 19, 2008, 14:54:36 PM I stand corrected ;) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jordy/DVK on June 19, 2008, 22:33:35 PM
Q uote from : R asse r DK on June 19, 2008, 11:14:53 AM You m ak e it all sound so sim ple ;-) im pre ssive stuff for sure !
It isn't all that hard if you look into it... Most of it is just common sense...
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F=m*a

a is the same for equal RPMs so the bigger the m the bigger the F ...
Problem is that the lighter the parts you buy, the lighter your wallet will get as well... :) BTW. Does anyone know the difference in weight between STD rods and H-beams? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: dangerous on July 12, 2008, 07:51:25 AM Hey there Johannes, would you be so kind as to post some pictures of the chambers and both ports of the heads. The old ones have vanished, and I am going crazy with anticipation having ever seen them! Regards, Dave. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: 70Turbobug on August 24, 2008, 18:53:24 PM Johannes you do amazing work!! Amazing results! A friend of mine bought your MS230 heads - fantastic product and great service! Thanks for sharing your projects with us! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Roman on September 15, 2008, 17:47:40 PM
Q uote from : Pe te r Shattock on De ce m be r 11, 2007, 12:33:40 PM Slightly off targe t but Brian Hye rstay (not sure about the spe lling) runs a 1679 g/dragste r into the low nine s in the US and is said to produce around 220HP and goe s through the lights at 11,000 rpm !
I talked to Brian a couple of days ago and the figures above seem to be correct. It is a VERY expensive engine though, SCAT flangded crank, titanium rods etc. No expenses spared! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Roman on September 15, 2008, 17:56:47 PM The Screaming Mouse engine is sold to Greece, but I will make a 1679 based on the same concept to a friends G/Dragster. As it is a pure race engine the compression will be slightly over 13:1, the cam will be a bit bigger and the intake valves will be 1 mm larger. Heads by JPM and I will make the rest of the build. The reson for going 1679 is that re rules for Competition Eliminator G/Dragster says 232 kg/liter and a minimum weight of 386 kg. 386/232= 1663 cc. If we have a 1679 we can weigh in on 390 kg including driver. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Rune on September 15, 2008, 18:21:57 PM Sounds like an interesting project Anders.. Keep us posted. Going to dynoday? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on September 15, 2008, 23:02:47 PM Wow Anders this sounds like a real challenge! I hope you will share your build and theories with us Loungers?!? I just wish I get to go to Dyno Day, but it doesn't look promising >:( Fill Rune with info for me ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Roman on September 16, 2008, 16:26:36 PM Yes, I am going to dyno day. I will talk to the owner of the dragster and ask if it is OK to share the build, but I don't think there are any problems.
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Roman on September 20, 2008, 19:26:17 PM I won't build any engine for Richards Dragster, at least this year. We ended up buying Brian Hyerstays spare 1680 engine, dynoed to 208 hp for a very reasonable price. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: 67-indeed/DVK on September 21, 2008, 00:15:21 AM i'm sure we'd all love to hear some specs if that's what it's dyno-ed at!! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Roman on September 21, 2008, 08:45:56 AM
Q uote from : 67-inde e d/DVK on Se pte m be r 21, 2008, 00:15:21 AM i'm sure we 'd all love to he ar som e spe cs if that's what it's dyno-e d at!!
Berg 69 mm wedgemated counterweighted crank Berg Thick wall 88's with berg special pistons with dykes rings Berg Pushrods Carrillo rods Stock heads ported by Dick Nuss @ EMS with 42 x 37.5 Del West titanium valves 12.5 compression Dyoned at Adam Wik's dyno. 197 hp@ 7500 rpm, 198@8000 rpm , 208@8500 rpm, 197@9000 rpm Best ET 9.28
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Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Project_X on September 21, 2008, 15:23:47 PM
Q uote from : R om an on Se pte m be r 21, 2008, 08:45:56 AM
Q uote from : 67-inde e d/DVK on Se pte m be r 21, 2008, 00:15:21 AM i'm sure we 'd all love to he ar som e spe cs if that's what it's dyno-e d at!! Be rg 69 m m we dge m ate d counte rwe ighte d crank Be rg Thick wall 88's with be rg spe cial pistons with dyk e s rings Be rg Pushrods C arrillo rods Stock he ads porte d by Dick Nuss @ EMS with 42 x 37.5 De l W e st titanium valve s 12.5 com pre ssion Dyone d at Adam W ik 's dyno. 197 hp@ 7500 rpm , 198@8000 rpm , 208@8500 rpm , 197@9000 rpm Be st ET 9.28
Nice, sounds similar to what I want to do when I start on my bug again (moms been in the hospital since July, sick since April, so the bugs on hold till December or later) I still play with ideas though. This one is the one I do want to do after seeing that 1600cc earlier in this thread. 1600cc Forged 85.5's Forged c/w wedgemated 69mm crank 5.5" connecting rods Engle FK10 cam Forged cam gear 10:1 Compression CB Performances CNC Round ported heads port matched intakes Dual 40 or 44IDF's 1 5/8" merged header w/ stinger Pertronix ignition kit All to be streetable running on 93 octane ;D I was told its doable so who knows. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: 67-indeed/DVK on September 21, 2008, 21:57:50 PM sounds high strung, but i ain't no expert ;) why wouldn't you go for a few more cc's with machine 88s? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Project_X on September 22, 2008, 04:25:02 AM
Q uote from : 67-inde e d/DVK on Se pte m be r 21, 2008, 21:57:50 PM sounds high strung, but i ain't no e x pe rt ;) why wouldn't you go for a fe w m ore cc's with m achine 88s?
Well I like that 1600cc at the beginning and i want one to :( Accept I cant afford those 86mm pistons LOL Is high strung bad? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on September 22, 2008, 10:18:10 AM
Q uote from : Proje ct_X on Se pte m be r 22, 2008, 04:25:02 AM Is high strung bad?
OHHH no! The most bang for the cc!! is fun! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Roman on September 22, 2008, 18:04:48 PM
Q uote from : Proje ct_X on Se pte m be r 21, 2008, 15:23:47 PM Nice , sounds sim ilar to what I want to do whe n I start on m y bug again (m om s be e n in the hospital since July, sick since April, so the bugs on hold till De ce m be r or late r) I still play with ide as though. This one is the one I do want to do afte r se e ing that 1600cc e arlie r in this thre ad. 1600cc Forge d 85.5's Forge d c/w we dge m ate d 69m m crank 5.5" conne cting rods Engle FK10 cam Forge d cam ge ar 10:1 C om pre ssion C B Pe rform ance s C NC R ound porte d he ads port m atche d intak e s Dual 40 or 44IDF's 1 5/8" m e rge d he ade r w/ stinge r Pe rtronix ignition k it All to be stre e table running on 93 octane ;D I was told its doable so who k nows.
I don't want to dissapoint you but it won't make any monster horsepower. I called Pat Downs some days ago about a budget small CC engine and he suggested CNC ported Comp eliminators a 1915 and that would maybe be able to do about 210 hp... There is no off the shelf heads today that can make 123 hp per liter. I know that both EMS and JPM charges about $4500 for these kind of heads. You won't need any wedgemate either, an 8-dowel done right will work perfect. Skip the aftermarket rods and spend them on the pistons instead. Go for a 1 1/2" exhaust instead of a 1 5/8". Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Zach Gomulka on September 22, 2008, 18:06:50 PM The Carrillo's in the dragster motor are only 5" long as I remember.
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Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Project_X on September 23, 2008, 03:15:24 AM
How about if I used slip in 87's with a slip in 74mm crank then, but with the same combo above? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Animal on September 23, 2008, 07:24:13 AM awesome,i like the mouse motor trends ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Zach Gomulka on September 23, 2008, 20:11:58 PM
Q uote from : Proje ct_X on Se pte m be r 23, 2008, 03:15:24 AM How about if I use d slip in 87's with a slip in 74m m crank the n, but with the sam e com bo above ?
Sounds like a Claude's Buggie's motor from 1985. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Project_X on September 25, 2008, 03:40:58 AM
Q uote from : Zach Gom ulk a on Se pte m be r 23, 2008, 20:11:58 PM Q uote from : Proje ct_X on Se pte m be r 23, 2008, 03:15:24 AM How about if I use d slip in 87's with a slip in 74m m crank the n, but with the sam e com bo above ? Sounds lik e a C laude 's Buggie 's m otor from 1985.
Who? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: stealth67vw on September 25, 2008, 06:03:12 AM
Q uote from : Proje ct_X on Se pte m be r 25, 2008, 03:40:58 AM Q uote from : Zach Gom ulk a on Se pte m be r 23, 2008, 20:11:58 PM Q uote from : Proje ct_X on Se pte m be r 23, 2008, 03:15:24 AM How about if I use d slip in 87's with a slip in 74m m crank the n, but with the sam e com bo above ? Sounds lik e a C laude 's Buggie 's m otor from 1985. W ho?
C laudes Buggies. Now known as CB Performance. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on September 28, 2008, 01:37:34 AM How about a small mouse? Actually a very small mouse... a Quarter Mouse!! (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/270920081744.jpg) Picture by Fredrik "Frallan" Reichel Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on September 28, 2008, 01:57:05 AM
Q uote from : JHU on Se pte m be r 28, 2008, 01:37:34 AM How about a sm all m ouse ? Actually a ve ry sm all m ouse ... a Q uarte r Mouse !! (http://i153.photobuck e t.com /album s/s207/Frallan2/270920081744.jpg) Picture by Fre drik "Frallan" R e iche l
??? :o ??? :o ??? :o ??? ;) :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Project_X on September 28, 2008, 04:19:12 AM a 1/4 mouse, what? ??? ??? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on September 28, 2008, 16:07:20 PM
Q uote from : Proje ct_X on Se pte m be r 28, 2008, 04:19:12 AM a 1/4 m ouse , what? ??? ???
[url]http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,6750.msg100845.html#new[/url :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Project_X on September 29, 2008, 01:59:19 AM cool, are they fast or anything?What do they do in the 1/4 mile? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Tomi on November 19, 2008, 12:11:49 PM What happend to the mouse motor pictures? Can they still be seen somewhere? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on November 29, 2008, 03:20:21 AM
Q uote from : Tom i on Nove m be r 19, 2008, 12:11:49 PM W hat happe nd to the m ouse m otor picture s? C an the y still be se e n som e whe re ?
I have now fixed the broken links 8)
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Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: dangerous on December 05, 2008, 21:32:13 PM WOW! Thanks for the pics, nice to finally see the heads. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: 1946vw on January 13, 2009, 06:31:22 AM My new mouse motor Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: 1946vw on January 13, 2009, 06:33:40 AM More Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on January 13, 2009, 10:30:49 AM
Q uote from : 1946vw on January 13, 2009, 06:31:22 AM My ne w m ouse m otor
Come don't lleave us hanging we NEED some more info on this one :o ;) :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Martin on January 13, 2009, 11:46:52 AM looks like twin over head cam, 16V, twin plug motor. Very nice work... Have been sketching up a simular item for my motor, although not a mouse motor more like a dirty big rat. love some more info on it.
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Wnderwolff on January 13, 2009, 13:06:03 PM 1946vw, I will not tell you that engine looks good, actually I think it is ugly. ::) But hell, does that monster look lovely or what :o :o Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: nicolas on January 13, 2009, 14:12:11 PM
Q uote from : Proje ct_X on Se pte m be r 28, 2008, 04:19:12 AM a 1/4 m ouse , what? ??? ???
1/4 mouse with cheese, or in metric a royal mouse. ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Zach Gomulka on January 13, 2009, 18:35:50 PM Better 8 dowel that crank, at least ;) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Animal on January 15, 2009, 08:16:42 AM Will that engine fit? Looks pretty wide 8) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: folkevogn on January 17, 2009, 11:07:50 AM
Q uote from : nicolas on January 13, 2009, 14:12:11 PM Q uote from : Proje ct_X on Se pte m be r 28, 2008, 04:19:12 AM a 1/4 m ouse , what? ??? ??? 1/4 m ouse with che e se , or in m e tric a royal m ouse . ;D
hehe ;D good one Nicolas reminds me of one of my top 5 best movies. Pulp Fiction 8) 8) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Frallan on January 24, 2009, 09:18:40 AM
Q uote from : 1946vw on January 13, 2009, 06:33:40 AM More
Whatever that is, please let us know more. My guess is not 4 valves per cylinder but twin plug and 2 valves? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Roman on January 24, 2009, 16:24:54 PM
Q uote from : Frallan on January 24, 2009, 09:18:40 AM Q uote from : 1946vw on January 13, 2009, 06:33:40 AM
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More W hate ve r that is, ple ase le t us k now m ore . My gue ss is not 4 valve s pe r cylinde r but twin plug and 2 valve s?
Hi Frallan, It is an engine for a Comp Eliminator G/Dragster. One of his old engines is in a garage 100 m from me! Top notch work Brian! //Roman Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Chris Andrews - The Mailman on May 25, 2009, 20:47:43 PM
Q uote from : Zach Gom ulk a on Se pte m be r 22, 2008, 18:06:50 PM
The Carrillo's in the dragster motor are only 5" long as I remember. Should I remember this correctly, I believe that the Carrillo's in Eric Ballard's (ERCO) A/MC, B/MC, C/MC, C/MX & G/Dragster 1680 cc engines (88 EMPI Slipper Skirt pistons, 69 mm VW counter weighed crank) were 4.850". Yes it is a VERY tight fit, but it can be done with Slipper Skirt pistons.
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: ugly duckling on May 31, 2009, 22:35:58 PM oh postman qwit your yapin and build somthing for god sakes. times a ticken ::) ;). UD. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: viNce on June 11, 2009, 18:34:45 PM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaKYf0NOMS8 8) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: C.O.R. on June 18, 2009, 00:06:51 AM Chris, I must be missing something, so help me out please. What do you mean by "slipper skirt pistons are a very tight fit?" Are you talking about slipper skirts and the width of the assembled engine in relation to fitting into a bug body being "very tight?" The only factor I see here is if your running spacers on the the cylinders, but that'd be with a long stroke rod. Do you mean to say "very tight" related to the skirt of the piston (barely) coming out of the engine case with those short rods? I'd agree that'd be a concern. With those shorty rods, you'd need to hand grind small windows in the case for the rod stroke, and then match grind (as in carefully have them machined) the cylinders to the case windows. Then you'd hand grind the slipper skirt themselves so they don't hit the case on the return stroke. Those short rods imact calculating your compression ratio, deck height, etc. You are right on target with the rod lengths themselves, and the crankshaft/rod length ratios as other considerations. And don't forget that the Modified Compact (A/MC, etc.) and Modified Eliminator (SS/CX) classes all used crankshafts varying in strokes from 78.2mm throught 82mm to meet the weight break rules. Each combo required their own special machine/grind to fit modifications depending ont he parts you assembled. Now, the dual carbs to engine compartment side is tight when you needed to adjust/synching them... Anyway, our thoughts/input on the discussion....talk to you soon! Aloha, Frank Castagnetti Ohana Racing Honolulu and Hilo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: s-perf on July 08, 2009, 00:00:18 AM Thanks Vince for posting the video of my Buggy. Inspirated by this post and by the great job of JPM, we decide to build a small engine also. We race for the first time (with this engine) in France 3 weeks ago and then all this week end at the EBI 3. Here is the combo : AS41 case 66 mm welded berg crank 90 mm autocraft piston & cylinder kit (old from 90's i think). stock welded heads with 42x37 mm titanium valves Heads flows 190cfm intake / 150 cfm exhaust at full lift with good velocity FK89 cam - 1,4 rockers 48 IDA with 40mm venturies 1-7/8 exhaust (too big i know :)) 12,5 CR - running with VP racing fuel No cooling, but alternator is on. Actually the engine is making 167cv (DIN) HP (perhaps a little more with the changes we made this week end). This engine is my street bug (you can see it on the video in the message before). I have always build "big engine" from 2liters to 3liters and i am very surprised and glad of this small one. This week end at the EBI 3 i ran 12,2s at the beginig and after some different jetting, venturies, exhaust, etc... combo, i finally ran : 20m : 1,60s 1/8 : 7,32s 1/4 : 11,68s speed : 109 mph The engine seems to be very strong as we made aroud 20 passes this week end, 9000rpm at each gear, 9200 at burn out. No leaks, no cooling problems, rockers play have not move.
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I think we have still many things to do as the combo is not perfect. The exhaust is not good, the cam is too big, the I/E ratio is too high, the manifolds are too long, slicks are too big, etc... So, if someone have ideas or advices, i am really open !! Special thanks to Mike H. and Greg M. for the gearbox, Steeve, Ian Clark, Paul Shley, Keith S. for the support and the advices this week end on the track !! Thanks to Vincent (builder and conceptor of the Buggy), Phiphi (for the suspension tuning advices) and to my friend David that helps me a lot on this engine.
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: s-perf on July 08, 2009, 13:39:32 PM Here is the engine : (http://www.slideperformance.com/photos/P1000883.jpg) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Oliver Frey on July 08, 2009, 19:21:25 PM
Q uote from : s-pe rf on July 08, 2009, 13:39:32 PM He re is the e ngine : (http://www.slide pe rform ance .com /photos/P1000883.jpg)
Sweet look at how narrow that little bugger is. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: fish on July 15, 2009, 08:54:21 AM This topic is just insane, Congrats to all that have had success with the mighty mouse cant wait to put mine together 69 x 88 Empi Birals, should be good. Anyway keep up the great work guys. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jesse Wens on July 18, 2009, 18:58:09 PM 1192cc 15.421@ebi turbocharged though,still counts as a mighty mouse? (http://blogsimages.skynet.be/images_v2/002/510/702/20090707/dyn002_original_602_494_pjpeg_2510702_e324f37b71b13105bacb2e47c2522925.jpg) (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_rf_mGqIEMGM/SjphsirU1JI/AAAAAAAAAIw/z-jIs3G2W4M/s400/DSC00285%5B1%5D) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: mr horsepower on July 19, 2009, 15:51:48 PM go jesse!!!!! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jesse Wens on July 19, 2009, 19:14:35 PM thanx Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Torben Alstrup on July 20, 2009, 10:31:21 AM Yes the buggy ran very nice. At some point sunday Johannes and I was sitting in the CSP tent grabbing a bite, when you went on the track. - Both of us stopped talking and eating, and listened to the burn out and run. And when it was over we both had a big smile on our faces. Nice engine. T Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Animal on July 21, 2009, 15:01:17 PM Damn what kinda turbosetup is that? ??? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on July 21, 2009, 15:14:54 PM
Q uote from : ruffbik e r on July 18, 2009, 18:58:09 PM 1192cc 15.421@e bi turbocharge d though,still counts as a m ighty m ouse ? (http://blogsim age s.sk yne t.be /im age s_v2/002/510/702/20090707/dyn002_original_602_494_pjpe g_2510702_e 324f37b71b13105bacb2e 47c2522925.jpg) (http://3.bp.blogspot.com /_rf_m GqIEMGM/SjphsirU1JI/AAAAAAAAAIw/z-jIs3G2W 4M/s400/DSC 00285%5B1%5D)
Cool little set up - we had a good race ;) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jesse Wens on July 22, 2009, 11:50:01 AM Monkeyboy,That was the metalflake buggy no? Close call till the end, the best races. Maybe when your done finetuning the result will be the other way round. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on July 22, 2009, 21:44:50 PM
Q uote from : ruffbik e r on July 22, 2009, 11:50:01 AM Monk e yboy,That was the m e talflak e buggy no? C lose call till the e nd, the be st race s. Maybe whe n your done fine tuning the re sult will be the othe r way round.
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Yep thats me and yes that was the FIRST tune and then driven to Belguim ::) I have had a few problems since but I think I have them sorted now ::) Das Drag Day / SCC ??? ;) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: rick m on August 03, 2009, 08:04:23 AM What journal size are you running on your destroked crank and what rod length? Rick Mortensen Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: george4888 on August 06, 2009, 05:53:02 AM Hi, Everyone. When I get my car set up for good take-offs from the starting line I will let you know the times. I don't see anyone doing a legal SS/FS in the USA, except me. There are rules which do not allow the use of any aftermarket heads and the 044 is an example of a head that is NOT made by VW/Audi and per the NHRA tech people, not allowed in this class. Also, if you only have a roll bar you have to use Stock seats,,,not race type seats and bumpers are also required. The rules for the 2009 SS/FS class are such that I am having lots of trouble getting my car and me down closer to the weight of 1800 pounds with my 1776 cc engine. Why the 1776 cc ? Because , I have built more of them than any other size during my 30 years working on VW's, do know what to expect. Looking over the past two years of posts in this forum, I see I am on track with many for my "small" engine. But, I am only working with springs that allow up to 8,000 rpms,,,at this time, but if the times are not on the index or below it, I will go to stronger springs and pick up another 1,000 rpms. The bottom end is Berg wedge-mated crank and Pauter light weight rods. I am using many light weight parts throughout the engine, such as Pauter's roller rocker arms and CE light weight cam straight cut gears. The heads are FF and have been run in the '80's legal down into the 11's, so I just need to work out the suspension problems I have and see what happens to the HP getting to the track. Thanks to all for the good information. Building a car to run legally in NHRA or IHRA is not easy, due to the strict rules. The index is 12.75 for SS/FS and in IHRA, running over 2,000 pounds weight, it is 13.25 for SS/CC. We did this 10 years ago and ran .75 under the index at that time, so I am just trying to repeat history and have some fun. George Karacostas, 4886 Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Taylor on August 16, 2009, 22:28:02 PM wanted: I am looking for a set of nos 041s they must have a VW logo and the full part number. e-mail me p/m me or call me at 562-884-2373 thanks taylor Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: kingsburgphil on August 17, 2009, 07:03:57 AM Regarding Kris Klingamann's motors, I don't see any mention of the weight break used in AMC/BMC class comp. At the time we started at 13 lbs./ci and went to 19 lbs./ci. I bailed at 15 lbs., since my 1998cc was to heavy/slow to keep up. Kris and others used small efficient motors because they had to respond to NHRA rules with winning combinations of parts and driver skills. Yes they leaned on the motors and trannys rather heavily, and they paid the price, as well as reaped the rewards. Nowadays, unless you're a class racer there's few reasons to run a motor at the ragged edge, unless you're a glutton for punishment. Kris and I only raced once, i was lucky. I dared not try my luck again. Kris ,if you read this, long time no see! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on August 27, 2009, 14:13:46 PM Well I finally ran the 11 I've been chasng for a while with my 1776cc N/A street car. The interesting thing is having read most of this thread again that I would not consider it to be "thinking out of the box", particularly in terms of the motor. A fair bit more effort has gone into making the gearbox more efficient though. Ian at WPS who built the motor would be the first to admit its just a development of the street motor he ran in his split, and not a race motor. The parts in the motor are all readily available but they have just been selected and put together with care. The best and most exotic parts of the engine are certainly the heads, which are Jeff Denham 043's with Ti valves. But again they are street heads a sort of an entry level set for Jeff, as he is certainly capable of something much better. The car is light for a street car, but not super light (1585 at the last count with my skiny ribs in it, it might be 1565 by now as I have lost some weight in the car since it was last weighed), as its all steel wings and has stock bulkheads and the like, but its stripped out inside with basically no interior except a head liner. Anything I've changed or added to the car I've allways tried to make it lighter, but not to the point of compromising drivability or reliability. The car was driven to the track (2 1/4 hours) on a hot day with no trouble. It ran 3 11's with a best of 11.915 at 111.41mph but this was with a stinger no fan belt and slicks. The journey home took 3 hours due to a traffic jam and the car sat in stop start traffic on tick over for 45 mins at 80 degrees C no problem. I'm really pleased with the achivment, but I would not consider it thinking outside the box. Its more like good logic and enginering. So the big qestion for me is, what can you achive if you do really go for it? It's been said earlier by John (JMR) that unless there are class rules to restrict cc / weight there is no major development on mass, to find out what can be achived today. That said there are people trying, just for trying sake, or just general self entertainment. The good news for all of us is that most of them in Europe and a few from over the pod contribute on here. Also I think things have got a lot easier due to the availability and choice of parts, and this has made us all a bit lazy. But all the time there are people like the Skinne Bros, Johannes at JPM, with there recent achivements, and many others, I think there will be constant improvement, as all these people are committed to making things better. Its just just the progress will be slower than it would be, if we were all racing to class rules, as they were back in the day in the US! Peter No mofoco of auto lina logos. NHRA is particular ;D
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on August 27, 2009, 16:45:55 PM WOW congratulation Pete - Thats AWESOME - 3 11's and driven to and from the track - HARDCORE! I also agree with alot of your points - it would be great to see a cc/weight class in VW racing, But its good to see there are still the few hardcore people doiin it just for the Kicks ;) Why do you think I am building my 2180 roller crank mototr ;) :) Well done dude ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
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Post by: Stanley on September 03, 2009, 03:21:40 AM
Q uote from : s-pe rf on July 08, 2009, 00:00:18 AM Thank s Vince for posting the vide o of m y Buggy. No cooling, but alte rnator is on.
The e ngine se e m s to be ve ry strong as we m ade aroud 20 passe s this we e k e nd, 9000rpm at e ach ge ar, 9200 at burn out. No le ak s, no cooling proble m s, rock e rs play have not m ove .
By no cooling problems do you mean no temp problems or no sign of heat damage? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on October 23, 2009, 14:34:22 PM Hello guys, I am happy and exited to tell you that a new, very aggressive," RAPTOR mouse" was born yesterday. 1795cc, mag case, 043 heads and ida 48 carbs. 228,3hp/7990rpm and 231Nm(166.9lbs)6200rpm corrected(Din). Have a nice weekend. Johannes Persson
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: speedwell on October 23, 2009, 14:43:27 PM any pictures ???.... ;) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on October 23, 2009, 15:17:18 PM ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: JS on October 23, 2009, 15:43:49 PM Congratulations Johannes! Can you please tell us about the valve train parts used in the build? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: benssp on October 23, 2009, 15:54:44 PM
Q uote from : Johanne s Pe rsson on O ctobe r 23, 2009, 14:34:22 PM He llo guys, I am happy and e x ite d to te ll you that a ne w, ve ry aggre ssive ," R APTO R m ouse " was born ye ste rday. 1795cc, m ag case , 043 he ads and ida 48 carbs. 228,3hp/7990rpm and 231Nm (166.9lbs)6200rpm corre cte d(Din). Have a nice we e k e nd. Johanne s Pe rsson
8) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on October 23, 2009, 16:03:51 PM JS, Cam is jpm01005(10mm cam lift 271deg at 0.05" 105 lobe center), ceramic lifters, GB 160000psi pr, jpm 1.55:1 rockers two stud, ti valves, jpm alumec retainers, OTEVA75 valve springs and single grove 7deg keepers. Alu push rods will soon be installed. /Johannes Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Rasser on October 23, 2009, 16:23:34 PM Dual valve springs? if yes, do you then plan on using single springs when installing the alu pushrods?
Oh, and a big congrats on the impressive results!!! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: vwcab on October 23, 2009, 16:44:10 PM Yes,impressive numbers ;) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Zach Gomulka on October 23, 2009, 17:27:06 PM What's the bore x stroke of that mouse? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
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Zach, The bore is 91mm and stroke is 69mm. /Johannes Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Tom G. on October 23, 2009, 18:02:17 PM
Post by: Johannes Persson on October 23, 2009, 17:45:47 PM
Johannes you are crazy .. ;D ;D You should try to sign in the guiness book of records for highest VW aircooled HP numbers/liter..... I am speakless... And we are waiting for pictures and videos.... Nice weekend too... Greetings from Germany Tom Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on October 23, 2009, 18:11:58 PM Rasser, The valve springs are duals but has increased installed height, pressures at closed valve is 100lbs and about 250lbs at 15.5 mm. The pressure is good for 9000rpm+. /Johannes Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Rasser on October 23, 2009, 19:00:09 PM Johannes: remember the type4 heads you did for Thomas from MIB? He just had his 2366 engine on the dyno today, and guess what 233nm/6200rpm 233hp/7400. almost similar numbers (except the ccm) :D
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: JS on October 23, 2009, 21:18:33 PM
Q uote from : Johanne s Pe rsson on O ctobe r 23, 2009, 16:03:51 PM JS, C am is jpm 01005(10m m cam lift 271de g at 0.05" 105 lobe ce nte r), ce ram ic lifte rs, GB 160000psi pr, jpm 1.55:1 rock e rs two stud, ti valve s, jpm alum e c re taine rs, O TEVA75 valve springs and single grove 7de g k e e pe rs. Alu push rods will soon be installe d. /Johanne s
Please post the dyno results after you change the pushrods. Very impressive work! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on October 24, 2009, 10:47:02 AM JS, The engine is for a customer in England and is delivered. The alu push rods was not done when we started the dyno tests but has been tested before with small performance improvements. /Johannes Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on October 24, 2009, 11:23:38 AM Congrats to the owner and to the builder. I heard Mr Takanobu Ito is on his way over to Sweden, will he get there before Bernd Pischetsrieder :)
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on October 26, 2009, 15:17:18 PM 127hp per litre! Easy to say but just think about it for a while, how do you achieve such a result with a normally aspirated, 2 valve per cylinder, flat tappet pushrod engine which was designed back in the dark ages! Compare these figures to other normally aspirated flat 4 engines that run on super unleaded fuel and you can begin to understand the scale of this achievement. The only motors that run close to these figures that I can find are Johanness old 1603 mouse motor and his 1915cc motor which was in his blue car. We are undoubtedly all very lucky to have Johannes in the AC VW world moving the game on, and sharing his knowledge with us and developing products for us to use. But for me best of all is that he is a really nice guy, and is very humble and almost embarrassed by his achievements, and
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would certainly never boast about any of his work. But perhaps this is the way of people who really are right out there, and know exactly what they are doing. The truth is, he really does operate at the next level, and the proof, if there is any doubt, is right here on this thread. The really interesting thing is that Im sure this is not the end of the road for JPM and Johannes, as there will be more developments, and more figures which us mere mortals struggle to comprehend, its just be a matter of time! Hats off, as its another amazing result! Peter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on October 26, 2009, 15:31:47 PM
Q uote from : Pe te r Shattock on O ctobe r 26, 2009, 15:17:18 PM 127hp pe r litre ! Easy to say but just think about it for a while , how do you achie ve such a re sult with a norm ally aspirate d, 2 valve pe r cylinde r, flat tappe t pushrod e ngine which was de signe d back in the dark age s! C om pare the se figure s to othe r norm ally aspirate d flat 4 e ngine s that run on supe r unle ade d fue l and you can be gin to unde rstand the scale of this achie ve m e nt. The only m otors that run close to the se figure s that I can find are Johanne ss old 1603 m ouse m otor and his 1915cc m otor which was in his blue car. W e are undoubte dly all ve ry luck y to have Johanne s in the AC VW world m oving the gam e on, and sharing his k nowle dge with us and de ve loping products for us to use . But for m e be st of all is that he is a re ally nice guy, and is ve ry hum ble and alm ost e m barrasse d by his achie ve m e nts, and would ce rtainly ne ve r boast about any of his work . But pe rhaps this is the way of pe ople who re ally are right out the re , and k now e x actly what the y are doing. The truth is, he re ally doe s ope rate at the ne x t le ve l, and the proof, if the re is any doubt, is right he re on this thre ad. The re ally inte re sting thing is that Im sure this is not the e nd of the road for JPM and Johanne s, as the re will be m ore de ve lopm e nts, and m ore figure s which us m e re m ortals struggle to com pre he nd, its just be a m atte r of tim e ! Hats off, as its anothe r am azing re sult! Pe te r
I know exactly what you mean dude - I have been thinking and re-reading this thread since the post from JPM, Its just AMAZING!!!!!!! ;D
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: 1946vw on October 28, 2009, 01:45:38 AM The best G/D motor makes 275hp + or - and is a 120 cid or 2000cc. 137.5 hp per liter. My best made 220hp at 1680cc or 130hp per liter. Thanks Brian Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on October 28, 2009, 17:17:05 PM
Q uote from : 1946vw on O ctobe r 28, 2009, 01:45:38 AM The be st G/D m otor m ak e s 275hp + or - and is a 120 cid or 2000cc. 137.5 hp pe r lite r. My be st m ade 220hp at 1680cc or 130hp pe r lite r. Thank s Brian
I just loooove people that throw out A and not B. Looking at the pictures you have posted earlier I would guess that your engines use overhead cams and twice the amount of valves?
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: 1946vw on October 28, 2009, 17:33:58 PM 69 x 88 steve tims heads 42 x 37.5 it was in Hot vws a few years ago. Brian Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: TexasTom on October 28, 2009, 19:27:28 PM Johannes, What was the static compression ratio on this motor? Amazing results, Congratulations! Tom Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on October 28, 2009, 20:23:01 PM Tom, The comp ratio is 12.8:1.Dynoed on pump gas with muffler. Regards Johannes Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: bang on October 28, 2009, 20:59:02 PM why not build a mouse engine ms230 heads fit on? but nice numbers Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Roman on October 28, 2009, 21:05:37 PM
Q uote from : Be e tle Bug on O ctobe r 28, 2009, 17:17:05 PM I just loooove pe ople that throw out A and not B. Look ing at the picture s you have poste d e arlie r I would gue ss that your e ngine s use ove rhe ad cam s and twice the am ount of valve s?
Hi, It is like comparing apples and oranges, but Brians 220 hp engine is not a OHC. The pictures were on his new engine, not the 220 hp one. I know some of the details of the 220 hp as I was offered to buy the old one a year ago. A lot of nice stuff like titanium rods, roller cam etc, in other words: A pure
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race engine. The big difference is that JPM's engines makes about the same power/liter at lower rpm's with less extreme parts and on pump gas. //Roman Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on October 28, 2009, 21:14:49 PM Thanks for filling in Roman.
Q uote from : R om an on O ctobe r 28, 2009, 21:05:37 PM Q uote from : Be e tle Bug on O ctobe r 28, 2009, 17:17:05 PM I just loooove pe ople that throw out A and not B. Look ing at the picture s you have poste d e arlie r I would gue ss that your e ngine s use ove rhe ad cam s and twice the am ount of valve s? Hi, It is lik e com paring apple s and orange s, but Brians 220 hp e ngine is not a O HC . The picture s we re on his ne w e ngine , not the 220 hp one . I k now som e of the de tails of the 220 hp as I was offe re d to buy the old one a ye ar ago. A lot of nice stuff lik e titanium rods, rolle r cam e tc, in othe r words: A pure race e ngine . The big diffe re nce is that JPM's e ngine s m ak e s about the sam e powe r/lite r at lowe r rpm 's with le ss e x tre m e parts and on pum p gas. //R om an
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on October 28, 2009, 21:20:13 PM Hello Bang, The customer did only want to use VW castings. My own 1915 producing 242hp/8600rpm has MS230, it will be updated with my new valve train and EFI for this season. I have another "Mouse motor"(1735cc) going on for my self that will be designed for peak power at 10500rpm, it will also have my MS230. Where do you guys put the cc limit for a "Mouse Motor"? /Johannes Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: bang on October 28, 2009, 21:41:40 PM ahh okay. by the way. sent you a mail. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on October 28, 2009, 21:56:03 PM
Q uote from : Johanne s Pe rsson on O ctobe r 28, 2009, 21:20:13 PM He llo Bang, The custom e r did only want to use VW castings. My own 1915 producing 242hp/8600rpm has MS230, it will be update d with m y ne w valve train and EFI for this se ason. I have anothe r "Mouse m otor"(1735cc) going on for m y se lf that will be de signe d for pe ak powe r at 10500rpm , it will also have m y MS230. W he re do you guys put the cc lim it for a "Mouse Motor"? /Johanne s
Those are some serious numbers dude ;D And I would say "mouse motors" would be Sub 2 ltr (2000cc) Its really funny when I start talking with my "watercooled" friends they are just in SHOCK when I start showing them this thread :D :D :D "what! all that power from an 1600, 8 valve!!!????" or "and Naturally aspirated WTF!!!!" Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: A-C on October 29, 2009, 03:33:49 AM
Q uote from : Johanne s Pe rsson on O ctobe r 28, 2009, 21:20:13 PM
W he re do you guys put the cc lim it for a "Mouse Motor"? /Johanne s
Under the 2,5l is a mouse motor!!! ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Trond Dahl on October 29, 2009, 09:18:22 AM You guys are talking about rat size engines, not mouse engines... anything below 1776 is small enough to be a mouse :-D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on October 29, 2009, 11:25:16 AM
Q uote from : Trond Dahl on O ctobe r 29, 2009, 09:18:22 AM You guys are talk ing about rat size e ngine s, not m ouse e ngine s... anything be low 1776 is sm all e nough to be a m ouse :-D
Yeah your probably right dude ;) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: andy M. on October 29, 2009, 12:13:11 PM
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anything with a stock stroke crank is a mouse strokers are for strokers! ;) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: 1946vw on October 29, 2009, 16:50:39 PM
My 69 x 88 motor sounds alot like his "street motor" 12.7 to 1, .600 lift ,VW lifters, 48 idas, vw heads, 5.400 rods, mag case, and it makes 131 per liter. And it is 10 years old. Brian Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: fish on October 30, 2009, 03:30:34 AM
Q uote from : Pe te r Shattock on O ctobe r 26, 2009, 15:17:18 PM 127hp pe r litre ! Easy to say but just think about it for a while , how do you achie ve such a re sult with a norm ally aspirate d, 2 valve pe r cylinde r, flat tappe t pushrod e ngine which was de signe d back in the dark age s! C om pare the se figure s to othe r norm ally aspirate d flat 4 e ngine s that run on supe r unle ade d fue l and you can be gin to unde rstand the scale of this achie ve m e nt. The only m otors that run close to the se figure s that I can find are Johanne ss old 1603 m ouse m otor and his 1915cc m otor which was in his blue car. W e are undoubte dly all ve ry luck y to have Johanne s in the AC VW world m oving the gam e on, and sharing his k nowle dge with us and de ve loping products for us to use . But for m e be st of all is that he is a re ally nice guy, and is ve ry hum ble and alm ost e m barrasse d by his achie ve m e nts, and would ce rtainly ne ve r boast about any of his work . But pe rhaps this is the way of pe ople who re ally are right out the re , and k now e x actly what the y are doing. The truth is, he re ally doe s ope rate at the ne x t le ve l, and the proof, if the re is any doubt, is right he re on this thre ad. The re ally inte re sting thing is that Im sure this is not the e nd of the road for JPM and Johanne s, as the re will be m ore de ve lopm e nts, and m ore figure s which us m e re m ortals struggle to com pre he nd, its just be a m atte r of tim e ! Hats off, as its anothe r am azing re sult! Pe te r
x2 very nice words Peter, for a very deserving bloke..........Props, JP.
Q uote from : 1946vw on O ctobe r 29, 2009, 16:50:39 PM My 69 x 88 m otor sounds alot lik e his "stre e t m otor" 12.7 to 1, .600 lift ,VW lifte rs, 48 idas, vw he ads, 5.400 rods, m ag case , and it m ak e s 127 pe r lite r. And it is 10 ye ars old. Brian
Also some awesome #'s there Brian, well done, any special coating on the internals or tips you can share, cam, chamber design, etc?
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: 1946vw on October 30, 2009, 05:03:58 AM The heads from Steve Tims made all the difference. 208 to 220 Brian Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on October 30, 2009, 13:16:50 PM At what RPM do you see 220 hp Brian? Great achievement! And Peter S, thanks for taking the chance on a dark horse like JPM! ...he delivers! We Scandinavians know, but this spring the Outlaws will know too! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: 1946vw on October 31, 2009, 04:43:34 AM It starts making 200 at 7000 and goes up to 220 at 8400 and down to 200 at 9000. Thanks brian Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Speed-demon on October 31, 2009, 13:24:39 PM Johannes: Could You please post some info on Your new Raptor cams? I would like to know: cam data which valve springs they are made for (or which are needed) which engine characteristics they are made for (incl engine size) pricing
BR Jens Kristian, Norway Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: JS on October 31, 2009, 22:16:13 PM PM for speed-demon. ;) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: gareth jones on November 19, 2009, 09:06:24 AM I've been following this thread for some time now and I am very impressed with what I have seen Even before the thread started I ran a 1776 with K-roc 043 heads and an Engle 130 it made good power and was very driveable but it wasn't in this league anyway, I am now building a 1914 motor not really a mouse I know, but definitely along those lines I have weisco pistons, H-beam rods, very light flywheel, mag case with sleeved lifter bores etc but I am unsure about which heads to use
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so, who makes heads with the necessary flow figures, titanium valves, springs which are good for 9k and acceptable street cooling? ??? I have always liked Steve Tim's work but even his signature series heads don't fit the bill these look interesting: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=828811 any suggestions would be greatly appreciated Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: TexasTom on November 20, 2009, 21:47:21 PM Gareth, You're right, there are some amazing things and information in this thread! What are your goals (horsepower & torque) and use for this engine? Will it be street driven? How much? Carburetion? These questions should be asked/answered in order to lead you to the heads (and cam) for your engine. I've had better luck with combinations knowing this beforehand; Bigger isn't always better. Good luck with your project! Tom Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: gareth jones on November 20, 2009, 22:08:27 PM Hello Tom thank you for your reply I will be running 48 IDA carbs and I will be driving the car on the street but it most certainly won't be my daily driver I would like to achieve 180 hp at 8000 rpm whether or not that is a realistic aim remains to be seen as regards the cam, I bought an FK46 for this motor about 6 months ago however, a JPM raptor cam may well be a better option... Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Neil Davies on November 23, 2009, 16:38:47 PM Gareth, you may want to search out Pete Shattock's 1776 spec - he's run 11.9's with that motor. I think theres more info on here about it! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: TexasTom on December 03, 2009, 00:18:34 AM
Q uote from : Johanne s Pe rsson on O ctobe r 28, 2009, 21:20:13 PM W he re do you guys put the cc lim it for a "Mouse Motor"?
I'd say under 1800cc. The smaller it is than that, the mousier ... ;) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: RFbuilt on December 03, 2009, 04:52:23 AM so a 1914 is a rattier motor? ;D
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on December 08, 2009, 18:38:12 PM
Q uote from : Ne il Davie s on Nove m be r 23, 2009, 16:38:47 PM Gare th, you m ay want to se arch out Pe te Shattock 's 1776 spe c - he 's run 11.9's with that m otor. I think the re s m ore info on he re about it!
Gareth, I'm sure you could manage 180 at 8k my 1776cc made a best of 186hp at 7300. There is a full spec of the motor in the for sale section. I suspect Andy Marriot's engine spec is on here somewhere as well. He runs a 1914cc which must make a very similar amount if not a bit more. Both motors are similar in spec as are our cars and Andy has run a string of 12.0's, but I would bet on him seeing 11's next year. As you will see I ran an FK87 which was a good cam for the combination, but does not have the modern thinking Johannes has put into his Raptor cams, and I would say there is a performance advantage with one of his cam's. Put it like this if I were keeping the motor I would buy a JPM cam, lifters springs and pushrods. As others have said you need to consider your induction, head and cam combination first. If you could provide Johannes head flow details I'm sure he could recomend a cam package to make the most of them, but you need heads that flow well and have good air speed before you go anywhere. Good luck with the project. Peter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on December 08, 2009, 19:36:30 PM
Q uote from : Pe te r Shattock on De ce m be r 08, 2009, 18:38:12 PM Q uote from : Ne il Davie s on Nove m be r 23, 2009, 16:38:47 PM Gare th, you m ay want to se arch out Pe te Shattock 's 1776 spe c - he 's run 11.9's with that m otor. I think the re s m ore info on he re about it! Gare th, I'm sure you could m anage 180 at 8k m y 1776cc m ade a be st of 186hp at 7300. The re is a full spe c of the m otor in the for sale se ction. I suspe ct Andy Marriot's e ngine spe c is on he re som e whe re as we ll. He runs a 1914cc which m ust m ak e a ve ry sim ilar am ount if not a bit m ore . Both m otors are sim ilar in spe c as are our cars and Andy has run a string of 12.0's, but I would be t on him se e ing 11's ne x t ye ar.
Hi Peter what is the weight of the cars ? Udo
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Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: andy M. on December 09, 2009, 11:34:18 AM
Peters car is 1340lb ( or was, probably lighter now ) and mine was 1376lb, both without driver, andy Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on December 09, 2009, 14:28:47 PM Hi Udo, My car at race weight is about 1500lbs with me in it. Andy's is a little heavier I think, (I think the exact weights are on the weight saving thread on here) but there is not much in it in terms of weight and power difference. Basically both cars are very similar all round. I think both cars are a great compromise between race car and street car, or street car and race car depending on how you like to look at it. We have both driven as far as EBI in them and drive the cars to the track when we race over here. Both cars turn some respectable times for small engined N/A street cars on the track, and they are certainly plenty quick enough on the street! Peter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on December 09, 2009, 20:06:34 PM That is very lightweight . My car has 1460 lbs without driver . But with your weight the times are ok :) Udo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: gareth jones on December 26, 2009, 09:43:26 AM Thanks for the advice Peter ;) PM sent
Q uote from : Pe te r Shattock on De ce m be r 08, 2009, 18:38:12 PM Q uote from : Ne il Davie s on Nove m be r 23, 2009, 16:38:47 PM Gare th, you m ay want to se arch out Pe te Shattock 's 1776 spe c - he 's run 11.9's with that m otor. I think the re s m ore info on he re about it! Gare th, I'm sure you could m anage 180 at 8k m y 1776cc m ade a be st of 186hp at 7300. The re is a full spe c of the m otor in the for sale se ction. I suspe ct Andy Marriot's e ngine spe c is on he re som e whe re as we ll. He runs a 1914cc which m ust m ak e a ve ry sim ilar am ount if not a bit m ore . Both m otors are sim ilar in spe c as are our cars and Andy has run a string of 12.0's, but I would be t on him se e ing 11's ne x t ye ar. As you will se e I ran an FK87 which was a good cam for the com bination, but doe s not have the m ode rn think ing Johanne s has put into his R aptor cam s, and I would say the re is a pe rform ance advantage with one of his cam 's. Put it lik e this if I we re k e e ping the m otor I would buy a JPM cam , lifte rs springs and pushrods. As othe rs have said you ne e d to conside r your induction, he ad and cam com bination first. If you could provide Johanne s he ad flow de tails I'm sure he could re com e nd a cam pack age to m ak e the m ost of the m , but you ne e d he ads that flow we ll and have good air spe e d be fore you go anywhe re . Good luck with the proje ct. Pe te r
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: TSAF on December 28, 2009, 09:36:40 AM I am left speechless with JP motorsport. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Simpsonshoe on December 30, 2009, 10:09:46 AM
Q uote from : Be witche d on De ce m be r 28, 2007, 10:12:48 AM Thats the bigge st crank pulle y that i have e ve r se e n ;D Nice work though,k e e p us poste d dude 8)
Is that the Berg Overachiever? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: bedjo78 on January 11, 2010, 12:12:45 PM I have plan to built 64X90.5. the engine will be run on 1641CC clas. 64 crank from old bug crank 90.5A mahle Eagle 5.352 rods CB044 round port 40X35 Engle 120 with 1.25 rocker weber IDF44 or 48 1-5/8 merged comp 10:1 will my engine potential making power comparing with 69X87 with same configuration?
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: dangerous on January 11, 2010, 20:26:12 PM the 40 hp crank that has the 64mm stroke, has wider rod journals by about 1mm than the 1300-1600 crank. Same diameter, just your rod side clearance will be excesive. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: bedjo78 on January 12, 2010, 00:58:13 AM
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Q uote from : dange rous on January 11, 2010, 20:26:12 PM the 40 hp crank that has the 64m m strok e , has wide r rod journals by about 1m m than the 1300-1600 crank . Sam e diam e te r, just your rod side cle arance will be e x ce sive .
Owhh....I did't notice that. Is it posible to use 40HP Rods into my set up? Thanks for that info's Regards Muz Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: RFbuilt on January 12, 2010, 01:10:19 AM since we're on the subject of mouse motors and this thread is filled with tasty info, i was wondering , on an 85.5mm bore , whats the biggest intake valve that could be run "ideally" JPM's mouse motor is 86mm , if im not forgetting , its running a 40x35.5 head , sounds interesting, i wonder , on a 83mm bore , is the 40mm too big? maybe a 37mm intake is ok? i have both my beetle's needing motor rebuild and both have planned motors already (rather mild compare to most ) this idea is on the drawing board, but it sure as heck makes me excited 83x74 (83mm 40hp big bore kit.. mod to run on as41 case and 040 head) not sure what is needed to be done to it crank, the usual 74mm crank puts it nicely at 1601cc kinda like the porsche super90
, cam etc still having fun with it (aka thinking LOL) myt be fun for a lil' autocross beetle
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jesse Wens on January 12, 2010, 12:58:56 PM 40 horse bigborekit has short cilinders for 64 mm crank so shims wil be required when using stroker crank. The 64 mm crank is stronger than people say with the neceserey mods. The weak link is the crank at the 3rd cilinder. For short burst , no pronlmes but use the power for some time and add some heat.... bearing eaten away. nothing that can't be done but you have to know how. I would tell you if I knew but this is all they told me. I got this from kristof at steves vw shop. seems that he has the secret and will do the work, but no kiss and tell. jesse Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Baked Beetle on January 20, 2010, 00:40:59 AM Johannes, I really would like to know how that stock crank spins that high? I know everything is balanced but......not even counterweighted? Can you fill me in on your choice as opposed to a DPR or CB performance crank? :D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: RFbuilt on January 20, 2010, 16:18:45 PM i think Johanes mentioned way back the reason for counterweight.. is to aleviate the weight thrown by the rod journal,rods,pistons, etc the lighter those parts are, the more reasonably counter'd the crank is ofcourse being counterweighted as a crank would always be better, but im sure Johanes has matched every aspect of his motor, including weight of individual components to rpm relation.. his JE pistons are quite short as far as compression height goes, and its well.. almost half the weight of cast pistons or even less plus the overall width of the motor is narrower.. anyways... im also still learning alot from these guys.. so i hope sum1 could clarify my words if ever im misunderstanding anything as far as JPM and overall engine techniques hehehe Ralf Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Baked Beetle on January 20, 2010, 19:17:10 PM Very Good Points. all of them. I'm curious about the rpm limit of using a stock forged crank that has been balanced? Better than say a cheap $200 cast crank or maybe just a s good as a 4140 CB 69mm crank. I'm in the process of building something like this but don't want to throw expensive parts at a semi-grenade motor ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: RFbuilt on January 20, 2010, 21:13:05 PM
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well i think its fine ( i hope haha) im doing 2 motors (still gather parts) 1679cc thickwall88s 69mm cb4140 crank engle 110 kads 1800cc thickwall88s 74mm cb4140 crank engle 120 kads
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Baked Beetle on January 22, 2010, 00:31:45 AM well after watching the dyno video again and again. I just cannot believe that crank holds up to 9k rpms, even with the light reciprocating parts........ I wish someone else could chime in 8) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on January 22, 2010, 09:30:31 AM I don't have the time to find the exact post or mail, but Johannes has shown me how the forces working on this crank a 9k is LESS than you will find in a normal 2332 setup @ I think it was 6 or 7k. Light and small parts helps a lot, some choices were also done to keep the total down. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: RFbuilt on January 22, 2010, 11:06:06 AM its sumwer in the early pages of this thread, johanes noted the figures of weight.. from my understanding.. its like doing the "hammer" throw.. shorter hammer of the same weight (mouse motor JPM) longer hammer of the same weight (usual motors) the shorter one will have less acting force on the thrower <-- crank vs the long one.. add the light parts (JE pistons of JPM) i think its sumthing that is indeed possible and doable
just not viewed or seen thru the "common" eye i guess.. or not tried cuz sum1 already said "meh stroke that bish.. or big bore it " LOL Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Baked Beetle on January 22, 2010, 15:07:29 PM Thanks JHU! Yea your right RF, thats what I'm trying not to do. Not do the most 'common' thing. As soon as one person says "that cranks limit is 5k rpm' everyone starts believing it even though it could essentially turn 7k all day long and the person never tested it at all. Damn internet sometimes is the cause for mis-information. ::) I've since found a set of JE 85.5 that weigh 335 versus the 418 grams of my oem KS pistons. that equates to 12 ounces less reciprocating weight just from the pistons. I'm thinking that is what Johannes pistons weigh in around.
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: RFbuilt on January 22, 2010, 17:49:50 PM re these the geers one? (or sachette) oh well one of th prostock guys LOL JE 85.5 ? very nice.. i made a post in the cal look section and recieved ZERO feedback asking about.. the givens like wiseco 94mm forgeds have gone down to sub 400$ mainly cuz some one had it done already and the fixtures and tooling and or cnc prog have been done at wiseco and so they can keep making them at a lower price (i know this is how it is fr another brand we specifically use for inline4's we order customs from) i wonder how many people would actually like.. or is it juz not sumthing worth a bean aftermarket (wiseco or other makers like JE) kind of 90.5mm B and A thats lighter than the "off the shelf" products that should sprout a sick lil 1776 haha or a big rat 1904 or a big farm rat 2007cc still within the mouse family? ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
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Post by: Clyde Berg on January 22, 2010, 18:52:00 PM
Here is a small motor thats really cool. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm7J-3lkrBo Clyde Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on January 22, 2010, 19:17:26 PM
Q uote from : Bak e d Be e tle on January 22, 2010, 15:07:29 PM Thank s JHU! Ye a your right R F, thats what I'm trying not to do. Not do the m ost 'com m on' thing. As soon as one pe rson says "that crank s lim it is 5k rpm ' e ve ryone starts be lie ving it e ve n though it could e sse ntially turn 7k all day long and the pe rson ne ve r te ste d it at all. Dam n inte rne t som e tim e s is the cause for m is-inform ation. ::) I've since found a se t of JE 85.5 that we igh 335 ve rsus the 418 gram s of m y oe m KS pistons. that e quate s to 12 ounce s le ss re ciprocating we ight just from the pistons. I'm think ing that is what Johanne s pistons we igh in around.
When i started building engines in 1980 i did some 1600 cc engines for street use up to 130 hp and 7000 rpm . We had no problems with the original cranks . BUT , there were no conterweight cranks avaliable in Germany . We had some okrasa cranks which were too expensive for us .... Today i would use a conterweighted 69 mm crank over 6000 rpm's, but an original with welded conterweights on , so you can be shure it does not bend too much. Udo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: RFbuilt on January 22, 2010, 20:00:04 PM thats cool to know Udo.. btw do u stil have that old 88.5 or 89 piston set? LOL
clyde berg.. thats a nice smallie!!! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on January 23, 2010, 08:21:02 AM
Q uote from : R Fbuilt on January 22, 2010, 20:00:04 PM thats cool to k now Udo.. btw do u stil have that old 88.5 or 89 piston se t? LO L
clyde be rg.. thats a nice sm allie !!!
I have advertised the parts and did not get them sold . so i built an engine with all parts i had , made some nice 311 heads for it and got an 78,4x88,5 engine together . I want to dynotest it the next weeks :) I drove it on the street in our black 67 and was much fun ... Udo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: RFbuilt on January 23, 2010, 20:29:19 PM pm me how much u would have sold them... maybe u can remove them for me.. HAHAHA i have a set of 88mm thickwalls.. i think having a set of 88.5s as extra is nice.. could use my barrels and bore n hone .5mm more when needed Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Baked Beetle on January 30, 2010, 05:46:39 AM so whats the rpm limit on my new in 88' BERG CW crank.... 8) I love ebay. My karma came by to pay a visit tonight. POTL mahle pistons, CW crank, all bearings , rods and pressure plate........for cheap. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on February 03, 2010, 23:32:58 PM Better late than never, but here is a video clip of the moment the Raptor mouse was born. Enjoy!(assuming it works) Peter (http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/th_RaptorMouseedit1.jpg) (http://s384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/? action=view&current=RaptorMouseedit1.flv) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on February 03, 2010, 23:42:03 PM 1795cc raptor mouse 1 minute and forty seconds old. (http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/th_RaptorMouseedit2.jpg) (http://s384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/? action=view&current=RaptorMouseedit2.flv) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on February 04, 2010, 09:05:24 AM
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Ahh.. so refreshing to hear a mouse scream with fresh lungs. Thanks for posting! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Andrimot on February 04, 2010, 18:33:27 PM the smile of the man "sound" better than the motor!! :) amazing... wish to hear on the car too. Andreas Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Martin on February 04, 2010, 20:10:33 PM how good does that sound! can't wait to hear it at the track Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: RFbuilt on February 06, 2010, 20:20:50 PM ok im experiencing a lil brainfart :D
how do u get 1795cc ? bore ? stroke? hehe Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: dangerous on February 07, 2010, 07:16:39 AM Probably 91x69 (bored out 90.5 cylinders?) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: RFbuilt on February 07, 2010, 09:55:07 AM yeah thats the only value i got to reach the 1795cc number.. interesting.. would that be a JPM/JE custom piston? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on February 07, 2010, 20:58:14 PM Yes it is 69mm x 91mm, the same trick JP used with the 1603, to make sure the barrels are round and straight and honed correctly. Yes again, the pistons are JP's spec from JE. I will try and post a dyno run as well but given it took me this long to post the engine run up, don't hold your breath! Peter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: RFbuilt on February 07, 2010, 21:43:52 PM thanks peter, very interesting, i guess now i should start saving some used 85.5 barrels, and if i find some 90.5s never know when an 86 or 91 become handily available ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: 67-indeed/DVK on February 08, 2010, 15:42:50 PM it can't be that the trick is in the pistons right? are those JE pistons that much lighter or something? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on February 08, 2010, 18:57:00 PM I think you'll find its actually a large combination of things that makes the difference, with small improvements made in all areas that amount to something more significant when combined. That said the pistons are lighter than standard, but more importantly in combination with the barrel size shape and surface, ring package pin height, and the like it does produce a good performance advantage over a stock combination, both in terms of maintaining good cylinder pressure and reducing friction. JP would be the best person to answer in detail, but this is the basics as I understand them. Peter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: RFbuilt on February 08, 2010, 22:50:52 PM i think , its juz like running standard 94s vs 94mm wiseco's the weight, and ring package alone should help a few ponies strut along.. thats 1 small factor.. in the whole "system" of an engine..
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seeing JPM work hsi engines.. im sure theres like atleast 50dff factors working together to make the "system" scream... i really wish there was demand for 90.5mm forged aftermarket pistons, OTS offering for them.. and we can always buy 90.5 barrels too! im sure one of the companies like wiseco or CP or JE wont mind opening up an
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on February 08, 2010, 23:13:04 PM You can get 90,5 JE pistons that fit to the mahle cylinders ... Udo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: RFbuilt on February 09, 2010, 00:16:58 AM from who ? and how much are they Udo ? btw have a pm for you.. regarding old german racing... wondering if u can help me out hehe Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: 1946vw on February 09, 2010, 00:34:10 AM I have some 95 JEs in 95mm mahles For sale Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on February 09, 2010, 07:28:41 AM
Q uote from : R Fbuilt on Fe bruary 09, 2010, 00:16:58 AM from who ? and how m uch are the y Udo ? btw have a pm for you.. re garding old ge rm an racing... wonde ring if u can he lp m e out he he
You can get it from every company that sells je pistons as a special order . I also orderd some specials like 95 , 103.1 .... Udo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: RFbuilt on February 10, 2010, 17:07:47 PM while you're right Udo.. but tat costs "custom" prices lol wat i meant was.. if we had more demands.. the wiseco 94s are around 350-400$ now since they actually offer it OTS (off the shelf) we should have some in 90.5s that would be fun.. example, we use Arias pistons on our honda's for racing.. we order mostly custom stuffs, they told me we can get a custom set , if we order 5 sets and get it for the price of normal shelf pistons at 450$ , but then again.. i cannot afford 5 sets one time LOL Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on February 10, 2010, 19:52:15 PM The 90,5x82 mahles are light and do their work . I think normaly there is no need for pistons like that except you want an engine like Johannes did. You can get them if you want , that's the main thing Udo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: RFbuilt on February 10, 2010, 22:16:12 PM yeah that does makes sense.. prolly xplains why we dont have that option in "forged" just custom orders looks like the mahle's are more than up to the task btw Udo thanks for the info regarding the rennkafer bug.. hehehe loved that bug! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on April 09, 2010, 08:14:52 AM Sorry it took so long again, but here is one of many dyno pulls made. Peter (http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/th_MVI_0046.jpg) (http://s384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/? action=view&current=MVI_0046.flv) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Zach Gomulka on April 09, 2010, 16:01:07 PM That sounds healthy! You should post this clip in the turbo thread ;D
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Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: benssp on April 10, 2010, 13:22:32 PM
Nice Feature on Pete Shattock's car in the new VolksWorld ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Martin on April 11, 2010, 09:19:17 AM Cracking feature, Motor sounds awesome! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: mymedusa on April 23, 2010, 18:32:43 PM long time nothing new..so i will post the first startup of my mouse engine...a real tiny mouse ;) 36HP 1192cc singleport singlecarb(harley CV) in the video 1/4-1/3 throttle max. because engine needs some brake in first. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHScA1WVBeA and my daily driver mouse 1192cc 36hp with blower. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUuDKGd1mVE
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: speedwell on April 23, 2010, 21:06:12 PM is it a pepco ??? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: mymedusa on April 24, 2010, 07:52:11 AM no. aisin + pci34 carb up to 1 bar of boost. ::) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: speedwell on April 24, 2010, 08:42:30 AM is it possible to have closer pictures from the supercharger ??? i never seen before one like this , who made them ??? thx fabs Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: mymedusa on April 24, 2010, 09:14:32 AM for sure, i will make some new during the days, here an older one: http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/8278/motor3n.jpg the rest is bedder per pm because i don't want to spam this brilliant thread any more. all build at my own but for sure in memory to old pepco just way more boost. the other engine is also build as supercharged engine...carb is just for breakin time. don't find a good pic so fast: http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2076/80512876.jpg Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Frallan on April 27, 2010, 01:10:01 AM Mymedusa, Congratulations, I do really like those installations. Well done!
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Ragtop on May 09, 2010, 10:21:22 AM Yesterday a friend here in Turbotown took his 1641 turbo engine to the dyno. 354 rwhp at 1.9 bars. Not too bad :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: maX cal-look on May 10, 2010, 12:06:45 PM
Q uote from : m ym e dusa on April 24, 2010, 09:14:32 AM for sure , i will m ak e som e ne w during the days, he re an olde r one : http://im g16.im age shack .us/im g16/8278/m otor3n.jpg the re st is be dde r pe r pm be cause i don't want to spam this brilliant thre ad any m ore . all build at m y own but for sure in m e m ory to old pe pco just way m ore boost. the othe r e ngine is also build as supe rcharge d e ngine ...carb is just for bre ak in tim e . don't find a good pic so fast: http://im g3.im age shack .us/im g3/2076/80512876.jpg
Realy nice motor, love that's Too ! ;) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on May 10, 2010, 12:43:27 PM
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Q uote from : R agtop on May 09, 2010, 10:21:22 AM
Ye ste rday a frie nd he re in Turbotown took his 1641 turbo e ngine to the dyno. 354 rwhp at 1.9 bars. Not too bad :)
Not bad at all. More info please. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Ragtop on May 10, 2010, 13:48:02 PM
Q uote from : Be e tle Bug on May 10, 2010, 12:43:27 PM Q uote from : R agtop on May 09, 2010, 10:21:22 AM Ye ste rday a frie nd he re in Turbotown took his 1641 turbo e ngine to the dyno. 354 rwhp at 1.9 bars. Not too bad :) Not bad at all. More info ple ase .
Specen: single relief case. Orginal crank,8 dowels, not balanced CB h-profil Mahle forged 87mm pistons Camshaft, well nothing exotic FK something... Scat 1.4:1 Cromolypushrods Original heads, welded and ported, BUT original valves 35/32,5 HX-35 turbo 56mm in 1600cc injectors Double 984 pumps E85 Autronic SM4 Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: 1946vw on May 12, 2010, 05:26:41 AM New motor 60x95 238.78 so far, It will be on the dyno for days. Brian Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on May 12, 2010, 08:35:14 AM Brian, I like the bore to stroke ratio! Nice to see you using a good quality thick wall stable cylinder too. If your prepared to share the information, what is your peak torque figure and RPM and max power RPM? Good luck with the HP hunt, but its a great result to date. Will you be running this in your G dragster? Peter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Crazy Mc.Stairs on May 12, 2010, 18:25:23 PM
Q uote from : Pe te r Shattock on April 09, 2010, 08:14:52 AM Sorry it took so long again, but he re is one of m any dyno pulls m ade . Pe te r (http://i384.photobuck e t.com /album s/oo284/pe te rshattock /th_MVI_0046.jpg) (http://s384.photobuck e t.com /album s/oo284/pe te rshattock /?action=vie w&curre nt=MVI_0046.flv)
Damn I love that sound! ;) It makes me thinking of my old little engine! ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Taylor on May 13, 2010, 02:42:46 AM What's with the spider humping your motor Brian? Good power though. Taylor :D ;D
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on May 14, 2010, 09:33:36 AM Well, I've had my first few drives in the car with the new motor, and I have to say it is amazingly smooth and very well behaved around town, with very good throttle response from low RPM, in fact it feels more like an EFI engine than a IDA motor. There is none of the small engine light parts issues which some people talk about either! All in all my initial impression is that its drives very well and street diving to date has been fantastic and needless to say its just great to drive the car again. The air temperature is still cold here and Ive only been on short (15 minute) runs so far but all signs look good with oil temp at less than 80 degrees still! The heads certainly seam very cool if the temperature of the tin ware is anything to go by (I don't have cylinder temperature gauges). I've driven to work today as its a nice sunny day so I can enjoy a drive at lunchtime so there's not much chance of getting much work done today! As for the performance it certainly feels very quick but to be honest the same could be said of the old engine after the 5-6 months off over the winter driving a diesel Polo. That said the low rpm pick up is significantly different, as you had to keep the old motor on the boil for it to fly but this one is raring to go right from low RPM. I have a couple of weeks now before the first race of the year so I hope to get some good street miles in between now and then to check all is well over longer distances and generally get the hang of driving the car again. Needless to say there are a few other little jobs to attend to as there always is, which I hope to do over the next couple of weeks, if I can stop driving the car! Its all to easy to forget that's what its all about, having fun and driving the car, and it certainly is fun, so perhaps those little jobs can wait! Peter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
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Post by: Zach Gomulka on May 14, 2010, 15:50:54 PM
Q uote from : Pe te r Shattock on May 14, 2010, 09:33:36 AM
The re is none of the sm all e ngine light parts issue s which som e pe ople talk about e ithe r!
Please elaborate... Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on May 14, 2010, 22:46:14 PM Hi Zach, I was meaning that I know a number of people earlier in this tread I think, suggested there may be problems with running light parts, particularly flywheels, in terms of drivability. Needless to say I'm sure this is true at some point. You just have to look at F1 cars trying to get out of the pit box, but I think the combination would need to be genuinely extreme if this new engine is anything to go by. I think by most peoples standards this engine would be considered, as fairly extreme by n/a VW street car standards, but in this combination in my car which is admitidly light (1500lbs when I'm in it) there is no problem at all (stock ratio first and second gear on a 4.25 rp). To be honest its ridiculously drivable. I went for a longer drive today and temps wise it certainly looks good, but as I said in my last post its not too warm here! But following my little lunchtime razz around I can definitely confirm one thing. Happiness is a hot VW! Peter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: deanosvws on May 14, 2010, 23:38:57 PM sunny day, fast bug, ida's, brms, can't imagine why you didnt get much work done! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: All Torque on May 15, 2010, 21:02:17 PM Your new motor sounds fantastic Pete! I can't wait to see it race at Shakey in a couple of weeks. Congrats on a seriously cool project 8) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on May 17, 2010, 14:50:43 PM Dean, your bang on! I had the Ida's ringing in my head all afternoon, and I don't mind the Erco's but you can't beat rolling on BRM's. Thanks Matt although its Johannes we need to thank for the noise, I know I'm bound to be biased but I have to agree it does sound a bit good! Mind you whilst we are doing a bit of back slapping I dont supose I'm the only one looking forward to seeing your car run in a couple of weeks with 600+hp! Peter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Tom G. on May 23, 2010, 11:51:05 AM
Q uote from : m ym e dusa on April 23, 2010, 18:32:43 PM long tim e nothing ne w..so i will post the first startup of m y m ouse e ngine ...a re al tiny m ouse ;) 36HP 1192cc single port single carb(harle y C V) in the vide o 1/4-1/3 throttle m ax . be cause e ngine ne e ds som e brak e in first. http://www.youtube .com /watch?v=HHScA1W VBe A and m y daily drive r m ouse 1192cc 36hp with blowe r. http://www.youtube .com /watch?v=e UuDKGd1m VE
So COOL ;D ;D the sounds of both engines is awesome!!! these little 36HP monsters!!! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: mymedusa on May 29, 2010, 17:18:24 PM a bit more spam...more blown 36er..without fan because it need new bearings.(preA porsche 356) (http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/4570/dsc0457o.jpg) (http://img695.imageshack.us/i/dsc0457o.jpg/) (http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/2236/dsc0456o.jpg) (http://img69.imageshack.us/i/dsc0456o.jpg/) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbJr_zlifeM its not really shown in the handy video, but the throttle response is pretty good. @TomG it is time that your tiny monster is ready ...come on. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on June 04, 2010, 14:07:21 PM Well what a weekend! Ive finally got to run the car down the track with the new motor. But first of all the drive to the track. Its just under 110 miles to the track from home and the drive there was all fine, and Im not joking when I say the only temperature problems were getting the oil temperature up as driving at 4000rpm the max oil temp I got on the gauge was 80 degrees. Better still I turned up at the gate moments before Andy Marriott did in his hot 1914cc n/a street car so we drove into the Outlaw pits for the weekend in formation. Given the gearbox in the car was designed to suit my old engine I was a little paranoid about breaking it, so I ran for the first day on MH street tires which netted me a best of 11.87 at just over 113mph which I was very pleased with as it beat my previous PB on slicks and all I did when I arrived was change the oil check the valve clearances, take the fan belt off and the deck lid so I could film what was going on of in the engine bay off the line. At the end of the day I ran one 1/8th mile pass with slicks as there was a big cross wind and there had been a few incidents earlier in the day, which netted me a promising looking 1/8th mile time to build on the following day. Day 2 of racing I ran with the slicks and ran a number of 11.6. second passes with a best of 11.60 again just over 113mph. thats over 3 10ths of my best previous ET. I had a number of problems with the car, and my driving over the weekend, so Ive got a list of things to do now before I race again
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The drive home again on the Sunday night was great, as it was a nice sunny evening and again the car was just running really sweet, and I got home in good time with no problems. For those of you who drive your cars to and from the track, youll understand there is a great feeling pulling on to the drive at home and clicking the motor off having had a great weekend with the car and a bunch of mates, there really is nothing much better! I have to say a big thanks to Johannes, as true to his word (as ever), the motor has been fine on the street and even better on the track. I just need to get my self and the car in order to really do it justice now! Peter. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: benssp on June 04, 2010, 14:29:07 PM Well done Pete/Johannes, I'm sure there's a lot more in it plus it sounds awesome ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: All Torque on June 04, 2010, 17:31:33 PM Second what Ben says! The car sounds absolutely amazing and is a credit to both of you! Pete's motor is the closest I have ever heard a VW motor sound like a sports bike! Simply aural sex ;) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: bob_8 on July 23, 2010, 02:54:55 AM I'm from Brazil, we are discussing about these engines, are sensational congratulations, here in Brazil has no engines of this type, usually only put crankshaft stroke and piston MAHLE great big (and heavy). the power drawn from these engines are really impressive'm crazy for vw bug especially by our dear aircooled. aware of our forum and www.forumfuscabrasil.com.br www.fusca4ever.com.br Sorry for my English, whom you write is the google translator: P Take care everyone. Adriano. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: andy M. on July 23, 2010, 19:19:33 PM I see that Mr Shattock has just run a 11.33 @ 119mph at bug jam with his mouse motor, good work!! andy Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Paul Bate on July 25, 2010, 22:16:51 PM Hello Peter, I got to say what an exceptional time by any standard for a naturally aspirated car!! Regardless of taking into account that it's driven to the track and is 1798CC ! Superb job Peter and all others involved! Paul Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Corally on July 26, 2010, 17:00:23 PM
Q uote For those of you who drive your cars to and from the track , youll unde rstand the re is a gre at fe e ling pulling on to the drive at hom e and click ing the m otor off having had a gre at we e k e nd with the car and a bunch of m ate s, the re re ally is nothing m uch be tte r!
Feels great indeed! Disadvantage is that i'm usually deafend by the engine sound on such long drives ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on July 28, 2010, 08:09:53 AM Well I've just had another great if slightly shorter than planned weekend of racing this last weekend to see if my tinkering over the last few weeks had resolved the problems I had with the clutch and suspension last time out. Unfortunately it was clear after the 1st run that the clutch was still not up to the job, so it was only a matter of time before it gave out. Worse still it was also clear that I had not resolved my suspension problems either. Fortunately I had enough options at the track with the parts I'd taken to resolve the suspension issues, which gave me the chance to see what difference the new gearbox ratios had made, whilst I still had a clutch! With sorted suspension and the new gearbox ratios the car ran 3 consecutive 11.3. quarter miles with a best of 11.32 @116mph (not 119mph as stated earlier). Needless to say I was very happy with this, and once again have to say a massive thanks to all of those that have helped me, particularly Peter at Cogbox in this case (who didn't go to the Brit F1 GP to finish my gearbox so I could race this weekend), Ian and Lee for the help and advice at the track and of course Johannes, for a little 1795cc engine which defies belief! I had several people come up to me at the weekend and say they could not believe a flat four could make that sort of noise! I left the track on Sat night once I knew the clutch was finished for racing but still drivable, and had a great drive home with next to no traffic and got home in record time, unlike the journey to the track in torrential rain and horrible traffic. I took a little de tour on the way home as there's a nice straight road with a few sets of traffic lights close to home, just so I could use up the last of the clutch centre plate, but as ever pulling up on the drive at home and clicking the motor off was a great feeling after a weekend of racing I wont forget for a while! I took the motor out on Sunday and the centre plate was almost 2.5mm thinner than it was when I put it in there before the race, but I have a possible solution to try at the next race at the end of August, so fingers crossed it will work this time! Lee has some film footage of a couple of the runs which I will try and post but as ever it will no doubt take me ages so don't hold your breath. Tanks Andy and Paulfor the encouragement and Corally ear plugs are definitely the way forward!
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Peter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: colin jardine on July 28, 2010, 10:59:18 AM
Nice catching up with you again at Bug Jam Pete, impressive stuff coming from your car with the little motor. Oh, and earplugs are an essential item on the street i reckon :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: delroyb on August 19, 2010, 13:32:54 PM Ok this may have been mentioned already but the best of the formula bee boys are squeezing up to 130-140 bypass from a 1300 single port and engines that can last a season putting out 110. And they have too keep a lot of vw parts Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: delroyb on August 19, 2010, 13:36:44 PM Sorry that was supposed to be formula vee and bhp not bypass. Stupid predictive text Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on September 07, 2010, 23:35:12 PM A brief update. My last visit to the track with the new motor did not exactly go to plan, as I was still struggling with clutch issues, but did run a couple of 11.50's (which amazingly feels slow now!), the best being a 50 flat, so there was no improvement on my previous speed or et. The clutch center plate let go on the 3rd pass on Saturday, but thanks to Ian WPS for an express road trip to Cogbox and Peter's help to make up a new center plate we made it back to the track with the bits to fix the car for Sunday. Adele and I ran on the Sunday as the first pair after the rain in the morning, and I'm sure most of you know what happened next, but as the others have said the main thing was that Adele was OK. My next and last outing this year is DDD8, which I'm hoping will be a lot less eventfull than the last race! I'm not going to drive the car there, but hopefully I can have my fun on the track and perhaps a quick razz on the roads around Bitburg. Peter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on September 22, 2010, 22:38:48 PM Well this is the final instalment from me for a while. DDD8 was a great weekend and to be honest I don't think I've had such a good weekend before running at best 2/10ths of my et, and it took me right until the last run of the weekend to get that close. As has become the norm the clutch gave up on Sat afternoon, but thanks to Ian (WPS) we got the motor out, clutch sorted, and back in, just in time to catch the last of the DAS barbeque hospitality that evening. After chasing a good set up for a few runs, the car ran from 11.8 something to an 11.52 last run. So the car ends the year with a best et of 11.315 at 116mph (no fan belt on slicks, with a muffler on super unleaded pump fuel) from around 25 passes and just over 1000 street miles. Needless to say 1000 miles is not much for a street car, but unfortunately my time for regular street miles is limited, due to other commitments. The only problems I have had, have been clutch related (one centre disc per meeting), but fingers crossed the last set up we tried for Sunday at DDD appears to be holding up well, so we may have found something which works now. I hope to put some more street miles on the car now that the years racing is over for me, and just enjoy buzzing round some of the nice local country roads before the weather really turns for the worst. Suffice to say its been a great year and the car has been fast and reliable on the street and track, its sat in traffic jams and not got hot, done 500600 miles of motorway driving and knocked 6 tenths of a second of my previous PB, it even gave between 25 and 30mpg on the drives to the track, so it really has done everything I could have asked for, and all from 1795cc. So that just leaves me to say thanks to all those who have helped me this year and in particular Ian at WPS, Peter at Cogbox, Dave Dinning, Lee Maynard, and of course Johannes at JPM for what has proved to be a ridiculously good little motor for the street and strip. Peter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Pas on September 22, 2010, 23:29:04 PM Excellent summary Peter, roll on 2011. Long live the mouse motors !!! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: didi on September 23, 2010, 19:20:08 PM peter, it was realy impressive to see you running at ddd8! your new small mouse motor sounds and run great. cool that some members from the outlaw's are coming again to bitburg. didi
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: speedwell on September 23, 2010, 19:38:23 PM ;) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: speedwell on September 23, 2010, 19:39:59 PM ;) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: speedwell on September 23, 2010, 19:41:39 PM ;)
68/85
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Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: kaferboy on September 24, 2010, 13:29:30 PM Awesome work as always Peter.... Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on September 26, 2010, 00:38:17 AM
Q uote from : spe e dwe ll on Se pte m be r 23, 2010, 19:38:23 PM ;)
Awesome car - glad I had a chance to have a quick chat with Pete and Ian on Saturday night (sorry if I was a little drunk!) Loving the tinware by the way pete ;)
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on September 29, 2010, 13:35:01 PM Thanks for the kind comments all, DDD8 was a great end to a great year of racing for me, I just have my fingers crossed the event will run again next year. I think there might be a few more Outlaw's there next year, but it does clash with an event the same weekend in the UK as a general rule, which is why we haven't attended in greater numbers over recent years. I think its fair to say this years event sparked a flame for a few of us though, as its a great hardcore VW event with like minded people from all over attending, and the quality of cars as well as the quantity is as good as I've seen in one place. I know there are a few other small motors being built out there, so hopefully there will be more updates on this thread over the winter and next year, with others flying the flag for the mouse motor, and needless to say I'm sure those that are out there allready will be thinking about winter tinkering plans. Roll on the 2011 race season! Peter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on October 14, 2010, 17:45:03 PM Hello there, Just a dyno pull of my 1915. 69mm Demello JE pistons 5.4" rods MS230 46x36 valves 11.2:1C/R Raptor valvetrain F1 throttle bodies Motec M4 ecu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0o4Yt6ew1M Will soon be updated with raised c/r, top shot injectors and new header. /Johannes Persson
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Zach Gomulka on October 14, 2010, 17:58:41 PM Give us some numbers! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jim Ratto on October 14, 2010, 18:10:06 PM
This is amazing and great news for keeping air cooled following interested and learning. Congratulations and thank you! :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jim Ratto on October 14, 2010, 18:11:15 PM Peter congratulations on your motor, seems it is best of "both worlds" and the motor I dream about at night.
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: volkskris on October 14, 2010, 20:43:15 PM
Q uote from : Zach Gom ulk a on O ctobe r 14, 2010, 17:58:41 PM Give us som e num be rs!
248 @ 8900rpm, found on the JPM dyno day thread ;) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Airspeed on October 14, 2010, 21:27:42 PM
69/85
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9700 RPM! :o Bloody h*ll !
What oiling mods have you done to keep the bearings ok at that rpm Johannes? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Zach Gomulka on October 14, 2010, 22:35:10 PM Holy hell!! :o Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on October 15, 2010, 07:34:02 AM That is what I call a proper wake up call! Johannes, thank you for taking the time to share your ideas and thoughts with the rest of us. Best rgs BB Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on October 17, 2010, 20:25:47 PM Hello, This engine was built for at least 4 years ago as an R&D project. It is designed to have peak power at 9000rpm and 14bar bmep, if I can hit this goals it will pump out 265hp or 138.4hp/lit. Only small changes has been made since first build, it has mostly been sitting on my shelf but the plan is to race the engine for next season. The pulls on the video is up to 9700rpm where the rew limiter kicks in, the power is 248hp at 8900rpm. No special oiling mods are done, just ordinary full flow with 26mm pump and oil return into main gallery. New header was tested today, 252hp at 9000rpm and keeps the power almost to 10000rpm. There was also a 8hp increase at 7000rpm, I have only made the calibration of A/F maybe some improvements could be expected from calibration of the ignition curve which I will do the next days. Next change will be "top shot" injectors, after that a custom made piston, which will raise the comp ratio to hopefully about 13:1. I still have 13hp up to reach target, a 3-4% increase could be expected going from 11.2-13:1 in CR. BTW I only use my std size OTEVA75 dual springs, valve lift is 16.3mm(0.641"). /Johannes
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jon on October 17, 2010, 23:14:18 PM
Q uote from : Johanne s Pe rsson on O ctobe r 17, 2010, 20:25:47 PM Ne w he ade r was te ste d today, 252hp at 9000rpm and k e e ps the powe r alm ost to 10000rpm .
Congratulations Johannes! Exhausts is a interesting topic, and four horses at that level is a great achievement! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Eddie on October 18, 2010, 08:04:18 AM
Q uote from : Johanne s Pe rsson on O ctobe r 17, 2010, 20:25:47 PM He llo, This e ngine was built for at le ast 4 ye ars ago as an R &D proje ct. It is de signe d to have pe ak powe r at 9000rpm and 14bar bm e p, if I can hit this goals it will pum p out 265hp or 138.4hp/lit. O nly sm all change s has be e n m ade since first build, it has m ostly be e n sitting on m y she lf but the plan is to race the e ngine for ne x t se ason. The pulls on the vide o is up to 9700rpm whe re the re w lim ite r k ick s in, the powe r is 248hp at 8900rpm . No spe cial oiling m ods are done , just ordinary full flow with 26m m pum p and oil re turn into m ain galle ry. Ne w he ade r was te ste d today, 252hp at 9000rpm and k e e ps the powe r alm ost to 10000rpm . The re was also a 8hp incre ase at 7000rpm , I have only m ade the calibration of A/F m aybe som e im prove m e nts could be e x pe cte d from calibration of the ignition curve which I will do the ne x t days. Ne x t change will be "top shot" inje ctors, afte r that a custom m ade piston, which will raise the com p ratio to hope fully about 13:1. I still have 13hp up to re ach targe t, a 3-4% incre ase could be e x pe cte d going from 11.2-13:1 in C R . BTW I only use m y std size O TEVA75 dual springs, valve lift is 16.3m m (0.641"). /Johanne s
It is so cool to read these posts and those numbers are just mind blowing, 9700RPMs Much respect Johannes. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on October 18, 2010, 11:02:17 AM
70/85
28/08/13
Seriously coool stuff ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: JIMP on October 18, 2010, 14:18:58 PM Hello Johannes just a small question, in that video with those rpm you use the tappered aluminum pushrods or the "std" chromoly ones? Thanks in advance Dimitrios Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Shag55 on October 19, 2010, 21:36:12 PM Bad a$$ man! what is the spring rate for those springs? Are they simaler to the CB 650s? If you don't mind how big is the cam on this new motor, @.050 and lift @ cam? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Carsten on October 20, 2010, 08:26:49 AM ;D ;D ;D ;D Great ! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on October 20, 2010, 13:08:51 PM
Q uote from : Atom He art Mothe r on O ctobe r 14, 2010, 18:11:15 PM Pe te r congratulations on your m otor, se e m s it is be st of "both worlds" and the m otor I dre am about at night.
Thanks, although its Johannes we are thanking here. What you say is a good reminder actually, Im sure its a human nature thing, but Ive a terrible habit of not realizing or being grateful for what Ive got. But as you say it is the thing of dreams really. It was not long ago, that if Id been told the car could do what it has done this year, both on the street and the track, I would not have believed it! Its interesting that after all these years of driving and racing the car, the 6 tenths faster that it ran this year relative to my previous years PB, is the biggest single leap the car has made. The engine is a little bigger, and in previous years I had purposely been making smaller steps to measure the improvement in a more measured way, rather than changing a load of things at once. None the less, I was definitely trying to go faster, and to have come this far, then to take of 6 tenths in one year, and if anything found it easier to drive on the street, is still amazing to me. The strange thing is I now know that it can be even better, but I suppose there will always be room for improvement. I do have this horrible sinking feeling that my trips to Sweden over the last couple of years were the first of many, rather than the first and last. Ive certainly found Johanness enthusiasm for all things performance very infectious, regardless of his clear skill and ability, and in many respects its a great relief to me that he lives miles away, as the distraction would be even worse than it already is!. Ive enough trouble keeping the home / work / car balance in check with all the other local VW friends and racers I know as it is! Peter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Shag55 on October 20, 2010, 16:30:29 PM I've been wanting to build a small-ish motor for some time now to make big HP up high. A 74x94 with 5.325 Eagle rods and JE skeletor pistons and asset of really short barells I have. The heads are 44x35.5 with tai valves, 7deg tai keepers and PSI springs and tight chambers, deck not cut yet. The ports are simaler to Chung Woo design the exhausts are smaller but should net a good I/E ratio. Berg 1.45 rockers and DT pushrods. The cam is up in the air as of yet but one grind in mind has 278 deg@.050 and .422 lift its a vary aggressive profile. Header will be a 1 5/8 steped to 1 3/4 but length not yet determined asim not good with calculations. Plans were to get it to 8-10k and in the 240Hp range. Any suggestions for the cam would be appreciated Johnnes. Shag Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Johannes Persson on October 20, 2010, 20:39:54 PM Hello Shag, The OTEVA75 springs I use in my 1915 has 150-160lbs installed pressure and 350-360lbs at over the nose. The cam is one of my Raptors which has 280+ deg at 0.05" and about .430 lift. All my Raptors are brand new profiles, no copies from V8 or others. They have all been designed to suit the valvetrain of acvw, that is why it's possible to reduce the spring pressure. I design the valve lift profile in a very advanced computer software and from that file created the lobe is cnc machined. That means that I can design a custom grind for a special performance goal and combo like yours in very short lead time and a fair price. Most cam grinders copies a "master lobe" when grinding cams, to make a new master lobe is very expensive. I don't have to do that when dealing with cnc grinding. Send me an email and we can talk about it. /Johannes Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Eddie on October 23, 2010, 07:03:39 AM
Q uote from : Johanne s Pe rsson on O ctobe r 20, 2010, 20:39:54 PM He llo Shag, The O TEVA75 springs I use in m y 1915 has 150-160lbs installe d pre ssure and 350-360lbs at ove r the nose . The cam is one of m y R aptors which has 280+ de g at 0.05" and about .430 lift. All m y R aptors are brand ne w profile s, no copie s from V8 or othe rs. The y have all be e n de signe d to suit the valve train of acvw, that is why it's possible to re duce the spring pre ssure . I de sign the valve lift profile in a ve ry advance d com pute r software and from that file cre ate d the lobe is cnc m achine d. That m e ans that I can de sign a custom grind for a spe cial pe rform ance goal and com bo lik e yours in ve ry short le ad tim e and a fair price . Most cam grinde rs copie s a "m aste r lobe " whe n grinding cam s, to m ak e a ne w m aste r lobe is ve ry e x pe nsive . I don't have to do that whe n de aling with cnc grinding.
71/85
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Se nd m e an e m ail and we can talk about it. /Johanne s
Johannes, maybe a change you are going to make Type 4 cams in the future? Kind Regards Edgar Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Arnoud on October 23, 2010, 10:03:29 AM And make a autobahnproof highperformance type4 head while you're at it ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: JIMP on October 25, 2010, 13:49:21 PM Hello Edgar send Johannes an e-mail, he does them anyway if he finds the blanks, he did for me recently a T4 turbo cam Friendly Dimitrios Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Harry/FDK on October 26, 2010, 19:13:40 PM
Q uote from : Arnoud on O ctobe r 23, 2010, 10:03:29 AM And m ak e a autobahnproof highpe rform ance type 4 he ad while you're at it ;D
Hmm. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: SSRT on November 11, 2010, 19:48:27 PM
Really looking forward to see the result of these changes,- anyway very inpressive numbers as usual!!! Good luck! SS Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on November 11, 2010, 20:03:27 PM Looks like we have another mid 10 sec. car for next year :) Udo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: mast on November 16, 2010, 17:36:59 PM edit Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: vintagewagenwerks on November 26, 2010, 13:42:10 PM The hearing of the number 9600rpm is unbelievable but i know that engines can do this,i feel very scary when my 2007cc engine runs over 5000rpm ,because the noise goes through your brain.Respect for driving at this rpm. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: reijo5 on November 27, 2010, 16:23:33 PM
Q uote from : Johanne s Pe rsson on O ctobe r 14, 2010, 17:45:03 PM He llo the re , Just a dyno pull of m y 1915. 69m m De m e llo JE pistons 5.4" rods MS230 46x 36 valve s 11.2:1C /R R aptor valve train F1 throttle bodie s Mote c M4 e cu http://www.youtube .com /watch?v=v0o4Yt6e w1M
72/85
28/08/13
W ill soon be update d with raise d c/r, top shot inje ctors and ne w he ade r. /Johanne s Pe rsson
W ooo that sounds fantastic, gre at work
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on November 29, 2010, 19:31:12 PM
Q uote from : vintage wage nwe rk s on Nove m be r 26, 2010, 13:42:10 PM The he aring of the num be r 9600rpm is unbe lie vable but i k now that e ngine s can do this,i fe e l ve ry scary whe n m y 2007cc e ngine runs ove r 5000rpm ,be cause the noise goe s through your brain.R e spe ct for driving at this rpm .
Don't worry about it . this is not a small , but 2,4cc at 9000 :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-r9sIim460 Udo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: TSAF on December 21, 2010, 15:57:17 PM One quick question I am thinking of building a new stronger engine for my 1964 beetle FIA approved rally car (http://www.rallybugs.com/CSBeetle.htm). Currently the car has a 1300cc engine which is quite strong but not as strong as the one I am thinking of. I would like to create a replica of the Swedish 1200s like the ones on the attachment. These are the Swedish VW 1200s, fitted with 1300 cc Okrasa (Oettinger) engines, Porsche 356 brake drums, plexi-glass windows, 84 liter petrol tanks. These cars were used in the 1964 Spa-Sofia-Liege Marathon race. I have bought the 356 brakes, bought the plexi-glass windows from a company in the UK (http://www.plastics4performance.com/), already bought a new ATL tank and much more, new bucket seats,. The point is to build an engine that will have an output close to 110-115bhp with max rpm 6500 and a gearbox that will keep the engine in the power all the time. There is a circuit racer in Britain from the just campers team that is a 1300 with power output of 140bhp, but this engine will not be suitable for rallying. All ideas are welcome
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on December 21, 2010, 18:37:17 PM I have a customer in greece that has built an 1300 engine for rally racing . He got the heads and cam from me and has dynoed strong 130 hp . I think it is a good result for an engine that makes power in all rpm ranges and has good torque . So i think it is no problem Udo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: 1946vw on December 22, 2010, 04:43:32 AM I have the first Dyno numbesr for the 1670cc 250hp and the FI is next. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: RFbuilt on December 22, 2010, 11:55:25 AM
Q uote from : Udo on De ce m be r 21, 2010, 18:37:17 PM I have a custom e r in gre e ce that has built an 1300 e ngine for rally racing . He got the he ads and cam from m e and has dynoe d strong 130 hp . I think it is a good re sult for an e ngine that m ak e s powe r in all rpm range s and has good torque . So i think it is no proble m Udo
thats some very nice numbers Udo.. and seeing it is rally use... that's some good longevity there id bet its pure heaven to use on the street Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: TSAF on December 22, 2010, 12:43:11 PM
Q uote from : Udo on De ce m be r 21, 2010, 18:37:17 PM I have a custom e r in gre e ce that has built an 1300 e ngine for rally racing . He got the he ads and cam from m e and has dynoe d strong 130 hp . I think it is a good re sult for an e ngine that m ak e s powe r in all rpm range s and has good torque . So i think it is no proble m Udo
Udo we are your customer in Greece (http://www.rallybugs.com/CSBeetle.htm). A friend of ours is using the heads you made and your cam on his race car. The car is a 1970 model and not a 1964 like the one I am thinking of. Originally with Udos set up the engine made 90bhp on the dyno. Andreas though re-worked the chambers and changed the timing of the cam. After a lot of work, and a lot of trials the engine made a healthy 130bhp at 6850 rpm. Andreas also changed the combination of stroke and bore. The car has made 3 FIA races with very good results. This year a new gearbox will follow that will suit the engine a lot better. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on December 22, 2010, 20:03:28 PM Ok , looked like you came from italy ... I know another story but it is ok Udo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: dangerous on December 22, 2010, 20:45:04 PM
73/85
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Q uote from : 1946vw on De ce m be r 22, 2010, 04:43:32 AM
I have the first Dyno num be sr for the 1670cc 250hp and the FI is ne x t.
:o Is that the 4 cam version brian? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: cbigpwr on December 23, 2010, 18:46:41 PM
Q uote from : 1946vw on De ce m be r 22, 2010, 04:43:32 AM I have the first Dyno num be sr for the 1670cc 250hp and the FI is ne x t.
Are you going to hit the track in 2011? Anthony D&A Racing Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: 1946vw on December 24, 2010, 00:55:18 AM yes Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: cbigpwr on December 24, 2010, 05:59:17 AM Cool, can't wait to see it run. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on January 03, 2011, 16:22:51 PM Better late than never, hopefully below you'll see a short clip of one of the 11.3's from Bugjam last year (thanks Frau) its not quite the best run, but you get the idea. For info the smoke off the line was clutch not tires, which gives you an idea why I had to change a centre disk at or after each of the 4 mettings I did this year. Happy New Year All. (http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/th_bugjam2010008.jpg) (http://s384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/? action=view&current=bugjam2010008.mp4) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: benssp on January 03, 2011, 18:08:58 PM I'm kind of missing that clutch smell which accompanied meal times at the track ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Bernard Newbury on January 03, 2011, 21:00:24 PM
Q uote from : be nssp on January 03, 2011, 18:08:58 PM I'm k ind of m issing that clutch sm e ll which accom panie d m e al tim e s at the track ;D
Or even missing meals while changing clutchs/pressure plates ;) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: H67bug on January 03, 2011, 21:16:35 PM That looks/ sounds so crisp and straight! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Pas on January 03, 2011, 22:58:50 PM
Q uote from : Be rnard Ne wbury on January 03, 2011, 21:00:24 PM Q uote from : be nssp on January 03, 2011, 18:08:58 PM I'm k ind of m issing that clutch sm e ll which accom panie d m e al tim e s at the track ;D O r e ve n m issing m e als while changing clutchs/pre ssure plate s ;)
Sounds like someone needs their own BBQ chef ;D The car looks and sounds awesome Peter, roll on this years racing season ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: mrmut on June 08, 2011, 22:38:47 PM
Q uote from : Johanne s Pe rsson on O ctobe r 14, 2010, 17:45:03 PM He llo the re , Just a dyno pull of m y 1915. 69m m De m e llo JE pistons 5.4" rods MS230 46x 36 valve s 11.2:1C /R R aptor valve train F1 throttle bodie s Mote c M4 e cu http://www.youtube .com /watch?v=v0o4Yt6e w1M W ill soon be update d with raise d c/r, top shot inje ctors and ne w he ade r. /Johanne s Pe rsson
Does the input valve is close to the cylinder.
74/85
28/08/13
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: RFbuilt on September 15, 2011, 15:40:36 PM greetings everyone once again ;)
looking at the masterppiece that mr. johannes has designed the mouse 1603cc motor, ofcourse power is not even a question based on the results, it made tons of it :) and driveability is ideal too i suppose... i have an odd question, hopefully udo or jpm, or any of our seasoned builders can clarify with the aproach of the mouse 1603cc motor, lets say.. adjust the cam and compression to suit a circuit application will the non counterweighted crank, using super light JE pistons be ok to use in sustained high rpm ? i know drag use is alot different when ur turning into a mild curve into a long straight where u are atleast 5-10secs in full throttle above 6k rpm , would the non counterweighted fullybalanced crank and itnernals with JE pistons be ok? or is it best to go with a cw 69 in this instance of application? thanks guys Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on September 15, 2011, 17:15:53 PM I would go with an original conterweighted crank . But the more important thing is the ballancing, we did highspeed balancing p to 8000 rpm on all race engines during the last years . It makes the crank live longer and i think it does not flex as much as it does before . Up to 7000 an ogininal crank is ok Udo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: RFbuilt on September 15, 2011, 21:16:51 PM Thanks udo ! Such an amazing source of knowledge you are :) But to clarifiy "original counterweight" u mean welded like DPR? Yes sir we balance all our internals on a schenk engine balance machine :) Lastly u mention on an "original" crank when fully balanced it is ok to 7,000 rpm it doesnt suffer flex as much Did u mean original non welded counterweight? As u mentioned for counterweighted it is safe up to 8,000rpm Thank you Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Udo on September 16, 2011, 05:59:48 AM All yes , this is what i found out . In the earlier days we used original non conterweight for our race engines up to 7000 with no problems. Udo Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: RFbuilt on September 16, 2011, 09:58:47 AM thank you Udo! i may have to try this :) with an autocross/circuit project hehehe thanks for sharing your valuable experience ! specially in circuit racing from before Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: speed7 on September 20, 2011, 02:19:24 AM I've been running a 1776cc street /strip engine for a couple of years now and it's still going very strong. I use the car as a daily on a regular base and racing it in weekends. It's a full steel 73 car and I'm running an ET of 14.5 @91 mph .(slicks and short 3/4) Engine has an estimated 125 hp and is built with a CW crank 69 , std rods , Cima Mahle 90.5 A kit and a Webcam dual lobe cam. The heads are 041 with 40x35.5 ported by Steve' Heads and 48 IDa carbs. The whole engine was planned as a streetable engine with good response at lower Rpms and still get good top performance. I generally set the RPM limitor at 7600 rpm for racing . I agree with Udo , that to make an engine "drehfreudig" and get high rpms easily is to give it a very good balancing . Well ,hope to see you all (most of you ...) in Bitburg next WE . Greetz - Marc Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: RFbuilt on September 20, 2011, 08:36:18 AM sounds like u have a nice super streetable 1776! :) full weight bug.. excellent Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: johnbitch on October 13, 2011, 20:09:15 PM Awesome thread. I love small engines.
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Here is a short vid of my 12oocc, maybe one or two of you lke it... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh03Wqh4AOM cheers Jan Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: mr horsepower on October 13, 2011, 20:29:43 PM you need shorter gears. for the rest is sounds awsome gr henri Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: johnbitch on October 14, 2011, 08:52:52 AM Thank you for that. The video was taken with a stock german 12oocc transmission. Next year I want to race the engine with a mexican 1600i tranny, which is, as far as i know, shorter than the above mentioned. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: andy198712 on May 04, 2012, 21:30:27 PM i thought the 1200's all had really short boxes, mine does ::) bit of a pain to drive above 50mph! has anyone seen the 1200 power contest? winner was around 150bhp at the wheels Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school : Crank Lightening Post by: dangerous on May 06, 2012, 00:43:08 AM Here are some photos of the jigs and crank for my friend Stanley's mouse motor: (http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Camera6thMay2012001.jpg) (http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Camera6thMay2012002.jpg) (http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Camera6thMay2012011.jpg) (http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Camera6thMay2012009.jpg) (http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Camera6thMay2012003.jpg) (http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Camera6thMay2012016.jpg) (http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Camera6thMay2012008.jpg)
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: dangerous on May 06, 2012, 00:46:06 AM (http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Camera6thMay2012010.jpg) (http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Camera6thMay2012013.jpg) (http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Camera6thMay2012012.jpg) (http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Camera6thMay2012015.jpg) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Andrimot on May 19, 2012, 18:40:52 PM Nice! would it be more? Andreas Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: dangerous on May 24, 2012, 20:53:37 PM
Q uote from : Andrim ot on May 19, 2012, 18:40:52 PM Nice ! would it be m ore ? Andre as
More? Could I take off more? Yes. But this will do this time around. (http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Camera6thMay2012007.jpg) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BeetleBug on May 25, 2012, 07:37:35 AM Thanks for sharing David! A little mouse was dancing with the dyna packs last week:
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WHP: [attachment=1] -BBTitle: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: richie on May 25, 2012, 08:09:49 AM Kalle, Nice so it works then ;) cheers richie Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: mrmut on May 25, 2012, 18:58:18 PM
long time follow what makes Kalle this project was followed out much HP and Nm , but one interested that camshaft of Raptor and which turbo to achieve this ??? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Andrimot on June 02, 2012, 18:44:09 PM Nice job! But why on a turbo motor? Andreas Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: mr horsepower on June 06, 2012, 19:29:33 PM Hi loungers i hope this is the right topic to ask my question. A few jears ago i got hold of a pair of solex 40 pt-4 carbs and intakes they were verry worn out . But i liked the way the were worked by hand some body had a hard time on them . I think the came from a old autocross or rally engine i liked that just to own it 4 jears later a buddy of mine got hold of a set of hand worked old race heads They have 40mm intake and 32 ex valve he told me ill could use them to make and engine for display with it nice i thouged when we looked at the heads and the intake i sayed the look the same as my old school carb/intake set So i pulled the carbs out of the dust and placed them on the heads And then the amezing came . The match the same as dna on peolpe!!! wauw! I thouged thats cool , So my buddy says lets put then on a flowbench just for fun and the turned out to flow 160 hp!! But i i consider them to far worn out to use But i have an 1956 ragtop oval bug that needs a bigger engine and i like old school And i gonna try to rebirth the old engine parts, But there are cracks in the heads and now i want to now can the be saved i hope so. Can someone give me advice on that i don t want to use new parts only period time parts and work to keep it originel and give the builder respect because for me its a part of history that i want to restore Here are some pics gr henri
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: All Torque on June 17, 2012, 08:38:03 AM You gotta love that crank jig setup... Very cool! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on July 08, 2012, 15:55:44 PM
Q uote from : All Torque on June 17, 2012, 08:38:03 AM You gotta love that crank jig se tup... Ve ry cool! 8)
8)
I was thinking the very same thing dude :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Lids on August 20, 2012, 23:02:43 PM The next challenge: http://www.saltflats.com/36_HP.html
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Frallan on August 23, 2012, 19:14:43 PM 1655cc and 255hp at 10.600 rpm.... http://ultimateaircooled.com/simplemachinesforum/index.php/topic,14319.0.html Cool. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: peejke on November 09, 2012, 21:27:13 PM I drive a hot 1776 engine for 4 years now in my '57 single cab, it uses 40IDF's, a counterweight gene berg crankshaft, autocraft rockers, gene berg camshaft,...CB 044 CNC round port heads,kennedy stage 1, csp phyton exhaust The thing is...when we where putting it together I checkt the GB camshaft number, but forgot to write it down, I know I looked it up and it said, mildly wild, for streetuse,... Anybody any idea witch berg camshaft it is??
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I'm planning to put the engine in my bug so the engine can finaly be put to the test, cause the high reving nature of the engine is no good match with my heavy bus. With the right gearbox it takes my bus under 18sec. Even with the tarp on. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: peejke on November 20, 2012, 15:50:22 PM Its prob. a GB297 , same as engle W110. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: ida2332cc on January 28, 2013, 04:53:26 AM wow this thread is awesome. have been loving reading it. i personally love the mouse motors. i built a 1835cc mouse motor about 12 years ago running a best of 13.01 at 98mph. with a stock 1300 gearbox. i will be building it up again this time with a box with better gearing. specs on mine were as21 case cleaned and de burred and all sharp edges raidiused. 69mm crank from 1300cc engine. I lightened and polished it. ( lot of ours) & not counterweighted stock rods lightened and polished. mahle 92mm piston and barrels. lighted and notched for valve clearence. lightend vw flywheel then bottom end was balanced. cam was a grind of my own spec which i wont give details on.(sorry) heads were 044s 40mm inlet 35.5 exhaust, ported by myself i even ground off valve guides inside the ports. 40mm dells comp was 12.2:1 and i was shifting at 7800rpm. this small engine was alot of fun and it never broke in the 3 years i drove it and raced it. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: chopper476 on March 23, 2013, 21:17:59 PM try and get this thread up and running again as its one of the best and most interesting threads ever! ian clarks 52 suited the theme of this thread very nicely and out of personal interest, does anyone have any specs of the later 1850cc motor it ran? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: andy198712 on April 06, 2013, 20:41:59 PM i'm toying with building a 1200T after my navy training if that counts...? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: modnrod on April 07, 2013, 04:58:59 AM 1200T sounds good. After 15 yrs the Navy doesn't....... Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: andy198712 on April 09, 2013, 21:18:02 PM
Q uote from : m odnrod on April 07, 2013, 04:58:59 AM 1200T sounds good. Afte r 15 yrs the Navy doe sn't.......
Lol I'll put some links up to a couple 1200t builds later. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: mansell on April 10, 2013, 14:52:38 PM Here's my "junkyard" 1776 put together using second hand parts over 3 years ago and still running strong now ;) No idea on HP or quarter mile times just good fun in my street bug ;D (http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e323/ozzy67uk/th_07042013041_zps0bcc1721.jpg) (http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e323/ozzy67uk/07042013041_zps0bcc1721.mp4) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: chopper476 on April 10, 2013, 19:55:47 PM
Q uote from : m anse ll on April 10, 2013, 14:52:38 PM He re 's m y "junk yard" 1776 put toge the r using se cond hand parts ove r 3 ye ars ago and still running strong now ;) No ide a on HP or quarte r m ile tim e s just good fun in m y stre e t bug ;D (http://i42.photobuck e t.com /album s/e 323/ozzy67uk /th_07042013041_zps0bcc1721.jpg) (http://i42.photobuck e t.com /album s/e 323/ozzy67uk /07042013041_zps0bcc1721.m p4)
thats sounds/looks awesome! whats the specs on it? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: andy198712 on April 10, 2013, 20:00:51 PM
Q uote from : andy198712 on April 09, 2013, 21:18:02 PM Q uote from : m odnrod on April 07, 2013, 04:58:59 AM 1200T sounds good. Afte r 15 yrs the Navy doe sn't.......
Lol I'll put som e link s up to a couple 1200t builds late r.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Z2zISQYevjg The boost pipe is the hot air feed pipe and uses the stock muffler.... super sleeper! http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=138482 this one uses a small turbo and a large turbo.... Maaad! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on April 10, 2013, 23:36:06 PM After a much longer delay than planned, the mouse is out of the house! This year it has new double wishbone rear suspension and 6 speed sequential gearbox with the tried and tested little JPM screamer out back. There is plenty to do to get everything working properly, and I need to learn how to drive the car again as you will see from the video below (if it works). ps hope you like Neil Diamond! If not go easy on the volume.......... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yona3vCyGQI&feature=youtu.be Peter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: modnrod on April 11, 2013, 11:38:06 AM WOW! That thing sounds crisper than some of the bikes I hear at the track. :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jesus on April 11, 2013, 15:28:56 PM Still giving me goosebumps, such a great sound! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: mymedusa on April 11, 2013, 16:01:42 PM @peter: tell us more about the gearbox ;) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Zach Gomulka on April 11, 2013, 16:06:25 PM
Q uote from : Je sus on April 11, 2013, 15:28:56 PM Still giving m e goose bum ps, such a gre at sound!
Sweet Caroline? Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on April 11, 2013, 17:19:39 PM
Q uote from : Pe te r Shattock on April 10, 2013, 23:36:06 PM Afte r a m uch longe r de lay than planne d, the m ouse is out of the house ! This ye ar it has ne w double wishbone re ar suspe nsion and 6 spe e d se que ntial ge arbox with the trie d and te ste d little JPM scre am e r out back . The re is ple nty to do to ge t e ve rything work ing prope rly, and I ne e d to le arn how to drive the car again as you will se e from the vide o be low (if it work s). ps hope you lik e Ne il Diam ond! If not go e asy on the volum e .......... http://www.youtube .com /watch?v=yona3vC yGQ I&fe ature =youtu.be Pe te r
VERY COOL :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: modnrod on April 12, 2013, 00:46:20 AM
Q uote from : Zach Gom ulk a on April 11, 2013, 16:06:25 PM Q uote from : Je sus on April 11, 2013, 15:28:56 PM Still giving m e goose bum ps, such a gre at sound! Swe e t C aroline ?
Hehehehehee! :D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on April 12, 2013, 08:23:35 AM
Q uote from : m ym e dusa on April 11, 2013, 16:01:42 PM @pe te r: te ll us m ore about the ge arbox ;)
Hi Mymedusa, Its a Hewland JFR 6 speed sequential shift gearbox with straight cut gears and dog engagement. Its a smaller and cheaper version of their well known FTR box. They get used in formula 3 cars and some single make formula cars like Formula BMW, Chevron also use them in their new car single make racing series. Its a good fit in a beetle with little modification to the car required (just remake the front mount) and make a bellhousing (modify an existing one). The difficult bit is the clutch as the standard arm for the release bearing does not fit if you want to keep the motor in the standard location which is what I've done. This means the gearbox sits slightly further forward and lower in the car than normal which helps improve the weight distribution a little. My car is 62% rear and 38% front currently but my ultimate aim it to get it to 60 / 40 if possible.
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I have some pictures which I will try and post up. Peter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: mymedusa on April 12, 2013, 08:44:10 AM
very interesting and just 36kg like stock. nice. would like to see pics and how you managed it. very nice. thanks for the review. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on April 12, 2013, 13:48:09 PM Hopefully this will work if it does their should be a picture of the box below.[attachment=1] Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on April 12, 2013, 15:10:26 PM Not a great picture but you can just about make out the nose cone mount on the torsion housing and there is a mid mount not shown much like the usual mid mount you see on a hypo type 1 box. Peter [attachment=1] Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on April 12, 2013, 17:56:22 PM seriously seriously COOL - Can we get a few more of the rearend set-up PLEASE ;) :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: benssp on April 12, 2013, 18:40:35 PM Very impressive Peter, you've really raised the bar this time! Must way a bit! ;-) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on April 12, 2013, 19:21:19 PM Peter..... I think car needs it own thread on here!!!! :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: WPS on April 12, 2013, 20:07:35 PM
Q uote from : be nssp on April 12, 2013, 18:40:35 PM Ve ry im pre ssive Pe te r, you've re ally raise d the bar this tim e ! Must way a bit! ;-)
Much to Pete's great joy when corner weighing the car whilst setting the geometry etc it is actually lighter than before.....imagine his little face!! ;D And there's some 'nasty steel bolts' in there that will definately get Ti'ed when the time allows....along with the rear springs when we're happy with the poundage.....it seems to need less spring than a ladder bar car.....but it's early days yet.....lots more to learn.... Ian Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: dannyboy on April 12, 2013, 23:16:14 PM proper cool setup was great to see a different approach to the rear end and it looks like its going to work very well 8) 8) 8) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jesus on April 13, 2013, 19:05:26 PM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXRw5MPhPY8&feature=youtu.be Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: leec on April 13, 2013, 20:45:40 PM Great videos as always Alex Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Torben Alstrup on April 13, 2013, 22:09:24 PM Hello. Last I looked, Hewland couldnt handle a powerfull drag engine/drag start. - That has obviusly changed. Very interesting. T Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Jesus on April 13, 2013, 23:42:11 PM from my limited understanding it cant take high torque so small cc engines work well. Pete is the man with the info though. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on April 14, 2013, 21:43:47 PM
Q uote from : Torbe n Alstrup on April 13, 2013, 22:09:24 PM He llo. Last I look e d, He wland couldn't handle a powe rfull drag e ngine /drag start. - That has obviously change d. Ve ry inte re sting. T
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Hi Torben,
The Hewland boxes Mark 9 and earlier are only good for around 150ft lb torque, but this one is apparently good for around 240ft lb subject to R&P. As Alex suggested it would not be much use for the big guns on here but for me I hope its going to be a good set up. The plan is that it would give me a bit of performance advantage in terms of the shift time and having the motor operating in a better rev range (more area under the curve) for more of the run. Time will literally tell if that proves to be the case or not..... Peter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: BUGULA on May 20, 2013, 19:09:36 PM I built a 1641 with a VZ15 cam, 10:1 comp, home ported stock size valve heads, 40mm Dells and a c/w crank. It went 14.79 with 6" slicks and a stock 3.88 trans in a '71 standard. Open stinger and fan belt on. The lite flywheel made it really hard to launch with the slicks. My next small combo will be thick wall 88's (I have an old set from a gasser) with a 69 or 74 crank and a webcam 86A. Maybe, somekind of 40x35 store bought heads. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Old Guy on June 12, 2013, 21:27:05 PM Hi Peter, It sounds great. I am assuming that with the dog-box you are not using the clutch to upshift. If that's the case what are you using to kill the engine temporarily? The shifts sound too quick to just be "bliping" the throttle while you yank it into gear. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: whirligig on June 12, 2013, 21:46:38 PM well our bits 1679(and I mean bitsa)whent 14.9 lifting off with the new gearbox ,lower 3rd and 4th,so looking forward to the gti meet at shakey ,dont know if it will take warmed slicks though!!!!!! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: 67nos48ida on June 16, 2013, 07:54:04 AM I was active in the Cal-Look seen in the mid to late 70ty's. At that time had a 1750 too. lots of head work, and with a FK89. Transmission somewhat total different that is where most of my money went. Lets just say on the freeway, in the slow lane I would be doing 45 miles an hour. We wont talk about RPM's either But also I ran a little additive to help me down the 1/4 and behind Nabisco's. My car was 19967 Black VW (old school) and hung out with DKK which I was a member of. But to this day I will still build another 1750.(almost the same thing I had as I had back in the day) Track time at OCIR without help12.90, and with help12.10. The unit that I was using was installed my Miller Brother's. ****I am trying to get in touch with Bill S. from DKK, since I don't live in California any longer.***** Phone or cell? email address? Thank you. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Neil Davies on June 16, 2013, 09:01:40 AM Welcome to the Lounge! There are lots of Deeks on here, including Schwimmer, so if you post in the main Cal Look section you'll probably get a response pretty quickly - I don't know how often he checks the Pure Racing section! Neil Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on June 16, 2013, 21:39:38 PM
Q uote from : O ld Guy on June 12, 2013, 21:27:05 PM Hi Pe te r, It sounds gre at. I am assum ing that with the dog-box you are not using the clutch to upshift. If that's the case what are you using to k ill the e ngine te m porarily? The shifts sound too quick to just be "bliping" the throttle while you yank it into ge ar.
As you suggest no clutch to shift up, or down actually just a blip on the way down to release the gear. I was lifting slightly originally on the way up the box, but to be honest my brain did not cope particularly well with the coordination and I kept making a mess of it, so I ended up keeping my foot in and just giving the lever a good tug. It shifted as you can hear on the clip from Alex. I spoke to Hewland about the possibility of this beforehand and have since and they suggested as long as the gear releases and you are quick then you will be OK. I got the impression this was particularly so in my case as my car is not heavy and has relatively little torque or horsepower, relative to what many modern Hewland boxes are designed for. I'll have the box apart at the end of the year assuming it stays in one bit till then and see how it looks, but as the upshifts sound crisp and the gears release easily and there are no nasty engagement noises, fingers crossed it will be OK. I'm going to MOT the car tomorrow and assuming it passes I can start getting some street miles on it, so hopefully I can get the hang of driving it before EBI in a couple of weeks. Peter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: benlawrence on June 16, 2013, 22:05:04 PM Peter, thats such an incredible car, i remember years back when you bought the engine from ian how well it went, youve come a long way.. differently, absolutely incredible. :) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on June 17, 2013, 14:02:49 PM
Q uote from : be nlawre nce on June 16, 2013, 22:05:04 PM Pe te r, thats such an incre dible car, i re m e m be r ye ars back whe n you bought the e ngine from ian how we ll it we nt, youve com e a long way.. diffe re ntly, absolute ly incre dible . :)
Hi Ben,
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Thanks to a lot of help from Ian (WPS) and Peter (Cogbox) for the best part of 10 years the car came a long way with us collectively making small incremental improvements which eventually resulted an the car running regular high 11's street driven and reliable as you like. I can say there is a lot to be said for staying with a combination and developing it! I learnt a lot, and had a great fun along the way. Things have moved on a bit with the car in general, but Peter and Ian have continued to help and be involved along with many other friends I've made along the way. The car passed its MOT today so had my first drive on the road since New Years Day 2011. I know I've said this before, but my good it feels fast on the road when you have been used to a diesel polo for 2 and a bit years! I'm slightly embarrassed to admit it, but I've been driving around this morning just trying to find an excuse to change gear! The acceleration and noise and generally feeling is just fantastic! A hot VW on the street really is such great fun....... The good news the back of the car feels really planted and a big improvement over the way it felt previously on the road. That said I've not been going too quickly as yet, so its still a bit early to tell but it certainly feels promising. One other interesting thing. I'm currently running the car without an external oil cooler or the standard one on the block and it still took at least 20 minutes of driving to get the oil temperature over 80 degrees which was a big surprise. I have the external cooler pre fitted in a new location due to the suspension mods and just need to make up some new oil lines but I knew my initial journeys would be just a few short local runs I didn't bother thinking I could just keep an eye on the oil temp. As it turns out I could go far further than I thought, but to be fair it was a regular traffic low speed so that does go some way to explaining it. That and the fact even thought its nearly the longest day of the year here in the UK it was only about 15 degrees! I've a bunch of must do jobs before EBI, and a few which might have to wait as I'm leaving here a week this Thursday which means I only have two nights in the garage between now and then. I had hoped to drive the car there, but its looking less likely now, I'll see how I get on with the must do jobs. Peter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on June 17, 2013, 18:00:45 PM I can't wait to check it out in more detail dude - That is one amazing car/engine/gearbox ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: richie on June 17, 2013, 19:52:34 PM
Q uote from : Pe te r Shattock on June 17, 2013, 14:02:49 PM
I've a bunch of m ust do jobs be fore EBI, and a fe w which m ight have to wait as I'm le aving he re a we e k this Thursday Pe te r
You could build a complete car in that time ;D Now stop messing around on the internet and into the garage ;)
cheers Richie Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: spanners on June 29, 2013, 15:29:53 PM Nice work Peter, very clever rear wishbone lay out adapted to the exsisting, that maywell be legal for circuit racing, ;) all it says in my regs is,, ' the original pickup points must be retained', well mine are in the tool box, :D just in case i get pulled. Beetle drivers get an easy ride,, untill you start winning... ::) then the bichin starts..love the trans' choice as well, i could use a 6 speed, something like that alone would be worth 1/2 a second a mile on the circuits. well done sir.. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: slowlearner on June 30, 2013, 05:32:31 AM First time poster... I remember coming across this thread and Johannes 1603 a few years back and being transfixed by the idea alone. Of course the engine itself is more amazing. I've got some 'out of the box' plans for a mini-mouse motor of sorts. I swapped my subaru powered dunebuggy for this oval last year... (http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk127/stpeterscia/1956%20Oval%20window%20beetle/IMAG09791.jpg) (http://s279.photobucket.com/user/stpeterscia/media/1956%20Oval%20window%20beetle/IMAG09791.jpg.html) Nice original paint (mostly) car. Came with a Judsoned 40hp. Cool setup except, it wouldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding and I am really beginning to miss autokhanas I used to do. I live in Australia. It is a great place to find rust free cars, but an awful place to get modified cars approved. I was up for building a blown 1600 for the car when it was made clear to me that swapping to front discs would involve thousands of dollars of brake testing and certificates. Dumb, but they're the facts. We don't have the dollars or room for tow cars or trailers. So, I need to keep registration and stay within capacity limits. Which means a supercharged 1300. Still figuring the details out, but I'll be taking plenty of cues from this thread. Low budget, thinking outside the box, etc. ;) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: modnrod on June 30, 2013, 09:34:39 AM Morning Mr Slow! ;D I too live in our great red land, in a state that also has a disease called "Tech Inspector Apoplexy". I have had a 1641 with Solex and modded stock exhaust running mid-15s, lots of others here have run mid-14s all day with a stock-looking centre carb set-up (hide them under a factory air cleaner assembly), and I have heard of a guy in the US, who is my undoubted hero even though I don't know his name, who has achieved low-13s out of a 1584 with single Solex! :o Now even though that's 2 seconds slower than Johannes twin-IDA'd motorbike motor, it won't even cause a second glance at a roadside inspection by one of our red dust covered finest........... Great ride by the way! Cool as. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: slowlearner on June 30, 2013, 11:04:23 AM
82/85
28/08/13
Hey modnrod, yeah I've heard about WA from guys building buggies. :( This circled word on my tech inspection sheet opens up a few legal options others don't have... (http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk127/stpeterscia/1956%20Oval%20window%20beetle/techinspection_zpsfbb9ac45.jpg) (http://s279.photobucket.com/user/stpeterscia/media/1956%20Oval%20window%20beetle/techinspection_zpsfbb9ac45.jpg.html) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: modnrod on June 30, 2013, 11:07:47 AM Hehehehe! It's all good man! ;D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on July 07, 2013, 09:30:48 AM Well after what seamed to be a long break in the calendar before Ebi, it came and went in a flash. I had a list of jobs to do after UKDD, which just about got done in time, but I only just got the car MOT'd before leaving for EBI. So with basically no street miles I decided not to drive the car to the track, which was a bit of a disappointment as I had hoped to drive. There was no running on Friday due to the track not being safe / dry following a lot of rain the day before but it was good to have a look round the pits and catch up with people. The track opened on Saturday and stayed that way for the rest of the weekend, but was single lane only and 1/8th mile initially on Sat again for safety reasons. It was a shame there were no side by side passes, for the crowd, but I don't think they were too disappointed judging by the number of people watching. I ran the first run with clutched gear changes just to get back into the swing of it and all felt good then shifted without the clutch for the rest of the weekend. I'm getting the hang of the shifting now and the good news is both the suspension and gearbox have been reliable to date. Unfortunately the oil leak issue I thought I had resolved was still a problem but the plan B parts I had with me fixed it. That said it turns out that in fixing one issue I'd made another which resulted in a temporary fix at the track which needs a proper fix now the car is home again. Nothing spectacular to report in terms of the times but I was pleased to get into the 11's (11.89)on the street tires on a road based track. Hopefully I can now get some street miles on the car and get back to driving to the track. That said next race is Bugjam which is only in a few weeks, so I better pull my finger out! There are a couple of short film clips on the EBI video thread in happenings if you're interested, thanks to Jo, Ian / Mav. You can hear the ratios are all wrong but 1st to 4th should give you and idea of what 5th and 6th will sound like next year. Peter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on July 15, 2013, 14:20:45 PM Quote One other interesting thing. I'm currently running the car without an external oil cooler or the standard one on the block and it still took at least 20 minutes of driving to get the oil temperature over 80 degrees which was a big surprise. I have the external cooler pre fitted in a new location due to the suspension mods and just need to make up some new oil lines but I knew my initial journeys would be just a few short local runs I didn't bother thinking I could just keep an eye on the oil temp. As it turns out I could go far further than I thought, but to be fair it was a regular traffic low speed so that does go some way to explaining it. That and the fact even thought its nearly the longest day of the year here in the UK it was only about 15 degrees! Well the car is back in one piece again after a few fixes and upgrades and took it for a drive on Sunday afternoon as is was about 30 degrees so I thought it would be a good hot running test with the oil cooler in its new location and to see if I can leave the deck lid closed as I never really liked the look of the standoffs. The oil cooler is now where the torsion housing used to be as I figured getting the weight further forward would be a good thing and if all we under and about air running of the back of the floor pans and into the area under the boot floor it should not be too bad. That said its closer than ideal to the underside of the boot floor directly above where the torsion housing normally sits. The car got up to 90 degrees with about 10 minutes running in traffic and a couple of short runs at 60mph on some open roads. A short blast later and the temp was just over 90 and it then stayed between 90 and 95 with similar traffic and open road driving. Oil pressure was still good at this point around 40psi at 4000rpm. I then switched the fans on at 95 which dropped the temp to 85 in about 1-2 mins. I left the fans on and the temp stuck at 85 or there abouts for the rest of the journey. When I got home I left the car on tick over with the fans on and with the low rpm the oil temp dropped to 80 degrees. So it looks like I still have some good temp control for the longer journeys to the track as its unlikely to get significantly hotter over here. As before the oil pressure and oil temp were quite closely linked with a 10 degree increase in oil temp resulting in approximately a 10 psi drop in oil pressure, perhaps slightly less if anything. All this with the deck lid closed, but I might nick one of my sons tennis balls to open the bottom of the lid just to give a bit more air to the engine and see if it makes any significant difference to the temps for the drive to the track on Friday as it looks like its still going to be hot still. More street miles on Wednesday just because I can! Peter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Shane Noone on July 15, 2013, 15:05:01 PM Hi Peter, Very Interesting reading and real life tech feedback, as I also drive my racecar out and about and to the track and back. ( Just raced at Dragstalgia after driving there and back in those same 30 degree temps ). My 2332 Comp Eliminator motor was sat around 100 degrees C Oil Temps measured in sump via VDO dipstick sender on the road jouney. My cooling is stock doghouse plus 19 row Mocal and Kenlowe fan. I had the fan on the whole journey. When I got home with the motor idling on my driveway and the fan running it did pull down to 95 quite quickly and I expect would drop to 90 if I waited. ( I have seen the fan drop the oil temp by up to 10 degrees C previously but on cooler days ). Your setup is running nice cooler oil temps. I can't remember do you have the MS230 heads on your mouse ? What's you Compression Ratio set to ? ( am assuming as road car your using some 99 RON pump fuel ). Have you got any pics of your remote cooler location you can share on here ? I did have a quick look under your car at DD but can't remember. Thanks, Shane.
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on July 16, 2013, 09:15:42 AM Hi Shane,
83/85
28/08/13
Good to hear you're another one who driving your car on the road and to the track, and with any luck home again! I run modified std heads so plenty of fin area to help with keeping the heads cool, a CSP non dog house fan shroud with a wide fan and a power pulley. My oil temp sender is also in the sump. CR is 12.7:1 and it runs on Shell 99 pump gas. I'm sure I have a picture of the cooler some where but I'm hopeless at all the resizing and all that to post them. I'll have a go at some point, but basically its in the std torsion housing location. Peter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Shane Noone on July 16, 2013, 11:33:35 AM
Q uote from : Pe te r Shattock on July 16, 2013, 09:15:42 AM Hi Shane , Good to he ar you're anothe r one who driving your car on the road and to the track , and with any luck hom e again! I run m odifie d std he ads so ple nty of fin are a to he lp with k e e ping the he ads cool, a C SP non dog house fan shroud with a wide fan and a powe r pulle y. My oil te m p se nde r is also in the sum p. C R is 12.7:1 and it runs on She ll 99 pum p gas. I'm sure I have a picture of the coole r som e whe re but I'm hope le ss at all the re sizing and all that to post the m . I'll have a go at som e point, but basically its in the std torsion housing location. Pe te r
Morning Peter, Yep, there's not too many of us left that still do that ! ;) Ah ok, yes the extra cooling ability of a stock style head on a street driven motor. Wise choice ! Are you running any additives like anti-det stuff when racing on pump 99 with that kind of compression ratio ?? And you just cruise around the streets presumably at low speed RPM's where the effective CR is much lower due to cam bleed off on plain 99 without any signs of detonation.....? Ok no worries about uploading pics etc - I'm pretty useless at that stuff myself :D Just wondered if your cooler was flat or upright in location and whether you were forcing air through it with some sort of ducting or just relied on an electric fan to push / pull air through the cooler as and when you switched it on etc...... Cheers Shane Ps when / where are you next planning to race as if I can make it I'll come take a fresh look and say hello. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on July 16, 2013, 14:00:31 PM Hi Shane, No det issues, but as you say the cam has big duration so at low rpm it makes very little dynamic CR so not much heat. Not had to use an octane booster but I do have a bottle just in case.... Open road speed is slow though 4000rpm is about 60mph but temps are well under control then. I like to keep them as low as poss within reason (8090 degrees), so engine expansion is kept in check so that the oil pressure stays good with nice tolerances for the bearings and lifter bores. Next outing with the car is this weekend at Bugjam. If you can face the mayhem that is Bugjam drop by. Peter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: monkiboy on July 16, 2013, 15:02:42 PM Hmmmm interesting reading on the fuel/CR/det etc I know there are ALOT of other factors to consider but I was worring about 11.8:1 :-\
Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: 1946vw on July 17, 2013, 05:43:35 AM 9.04 143.10 with a 1668cc engine G/D Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Neil Davies on July 17, 2013, 12:48:21 PM
Q uote from : 1946vw on July 17, 2013, 05:43:35 AM 9.04 143.10 with a 1668cc e ngine G/D
Amazing, well done! :o I'd love to see your engine matched up to Peter Shattock's gearbox - I'd imagine it would sound like a swarm of angry wasps with chainsaws! Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on July 18, 2013, 13:48:07 PM Neil, I think you'll find Brian has a gearbox well suited to his dragster and engine to run that sort of number. Very impressive Brian which motor was this? A new PB I assume, did it get you a record back too? Less is more! Peter Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: speedwell on July 18, 2013, 17:19:47 PM
Q uote from : Pe te r Shattock on July 18, 2013, 13:48:07 PM Ne il, I think you'll find Brian has a ge arbox we ll suite d to his dragste r and e ngine to run that sort of num be r.
84/85
28/08/13
Ve ry im pre ssive Brian which m otor was this? A ne w PB I assum e , did it ge t you a re cord back too? Le ss is m ore ! Pe te r
peter there's a tread about brian's engine here (http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,18903.0.html) Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Peter Shattock on July 28, 2013, 20:28:43 PM Well this is my last update again for a while following the race last weekend at Bugjam, as Ive decided to make an early start to my planned winter updates, in a hope I can avoid a last minute rush next year Im glad to say Bugjam was far better than I had expected as an event. Its been a few years since I was there last and the way they have set up the racers pit meant there were only people interested that bothered to walk in which was good. Im sure there were plenty of revellers there but they didnt make it to the racers pits. To the credit of the Santa Pod staff it was all very well organised and all in all an enjoyable weekend. I finally got to drive the car to the track again which was the first long drive I had time for with previous longest runs being only around 30-35 minutes. I just bumbled along for the 2 hours it took to get to the track from home. At about 55mph oil temps were just over 90 degrees with the fans off and the deck lid closed. Fans on they got down to below 75 degrees and as before the oil pressure increased over 10 psi in this temp range. The first long run with the gear box revealed it shifts quicker with warm oil (no great surprise) which is now on the list of jobs to contemplate for the future. Friday was a day of bracket racing for me with a string of 11.5* second runs, but the clutch was marginal on a good track after a couple of runs and that familiar clutch aroma filled the garage after each run. On Saturday this resulted in me trying to get the car off the line without a burnout or even a tire scrub the latter was what I was doing on Friday. This worked remarkably well and I actually managed to run a couple of 11.4*s just to break the monotony of the 5*s. I went backwards on Sunday with 2 11.6*s, but I managed to get back to the 4*s for the first round of eliminations but got beaten by JG (again). The highlight at the track was a 117mph run which is my best terminal speed, but I think this was mainly due to a healthy tail wind rather than anything either the car or I did. Having packed everything back in the car again the drive home was great on a nice warm evening, I left the fans on and drove faster when there wasnt traffic jams and could keep the oil temps at 80 degrees between 60-65mph and did this for about an hour on the last part of the journey, again with the deck lid closed. Big thanks go to Ian, Alex and Mav for all their help and advice over the weekend. The cars not gone any quicker this year and has actually been at best 1.4 tenths of its best time from 2010. It would of course have been nice to go quicker, but this year was all about trying to prove the new setup works and is safe and reliable. The good news is that this has proved to be the case in all respects having driven the car a fair bit on the road now and on 3 different tracks. Hopefully there are no horror stories when I get the car apart, but Ill just have to wait and see on that front. I have to say a big thank you to Luke and Andy at Robinson Race Cars, as they mounted the gearbox, built the rear suspension and set the car up and provided loads of advice and help along the way. Also Paul for the gearbox and the suspension design advice which in all has made the car very easy to drive and a lot of fun to change gear with! I have a busy winter ahead, but looking forward to 2014 already. Peter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs5dHwTLqmQ Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Boom Boom on August 15, 2013, 23:10:25 PM If someone was to put together a 62.5X94 where would be the best place to get shorter than stock head studs as the rods are going to be 4.75.. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: dangerous on August 16, 2013, 02:45:25 AM Short ;D of having some made, you can go for 10mm studs, from 36 and 40hp engines. They go in steps of about 1/2" from the 36hp upper and lower, right up to the last 1500 and 1600 dual and single port M10 studs. Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school Post by: Old Guy on August 16, 2013, 16:18:19 PM 6.28 @ 115MPH in the 1/8th with a 1641. Take a look at the "Hyper Bug" for sale.
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28/08/13

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The Cal-look Lounge

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Still chasing?.... Soon they will be ahead.

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They are custom order thru Johannes (JPM)

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Wow,there some pricey parts in there for a little 1600 :D

Johannes which lifters did you use at only 22.95?

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W ow,the re som e price y parts in the re for a little 1600 :D

Johanne s which lifte rs did you use at only 22.95?

che e rs richie ,uk

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I have now fixed the broken links 8)

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Post by: Johannes Persson on October 23, 2009, 17:45:47 PM