24/11/13

Re: P-Delta effect plus Time-History analysis or Response Spectrum analysis. - Structural Analysis and Design Forum - Structural Analysis and Design -

Structural Analysis and Design

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P-Delta effect plus Time-History analysis or Response Spectrum analysis.

Posted by dynamics on Thu, Sep 20 2012 11:58 PM

Yes would appreciate if you could post that clause from ASCE 4, Many thanks

Posted by raycxxx on Thu, Sep 20 2012 11:08 PM

1. Kg member matrices are linear functions of the axial load in the member. These are usually calculated from a static load case solution. I assume that dead load and other permanent loads would be included. Similar to the masses used in the eigensolution. You could include wind or equivalent earthquake loads in the static case as well. However that would lead to two analysis solutions or more (one for X and one for Z). 2. Yes. Note that if the structure is not symmetric, then a positive side load may have different results than a negative side load. You could have 4 dynamic analysis runs or more. 3. Yes if you are not using the 100-30-30 rule. 4. In ASCE 7-05 there is reference to modal combinations methods from ASCE 4-98 should be used. We have those rules in our ASCE4 option. Does anyone use or need that rule or any other clause from ASCE4?

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24/11/13

Re: P-Delta effect plus Time-History analysis or Response Spectrum analysis. - Structural Analysis and Design Forum - Structural Analysis and Design -

Posted by dynamics on Thu, Sep 20 2012 2:03 PM

Mr. Raycxxx, With my limited understanding of the new P-delta KG Analysis because of its insufficient documentation and supporting technical reference let me clarify a couple of salient points in your post below. 1. Load case number 3 is the load case where the program extracts the KG matrices to be used in the succeeding analysis. I believe this is similar to ETABS and MIdas Gen Programs where they have a specific P-delta load combination from which the KG matrices will be extracted from, am I correct? 2. Having said that, that particular load case should ideally include the lateral load to capture the worst case effect of P-delta so that the KG matrices equations are derived from the laterally displaced shaped of the structure am I correct in my understanding here? Hence, ideally this particular load case should include for example the static earthquake in the combination if it is defined in the load cases already. 3. What significance is the SRSS combination of the two orthogonal response spectrum load cases is this just to get the resultant effect of the response spectrum load? Your clarification is very much appreciated.

Posted by raycxxx on Thu, Sep 20 2012 1:42 AM

*********************** P D E L T A with Response Spectrum and Load Combinations ******************************* ******************************* Enter static cases LOAD 1 LOADTYPE DEAD TITLE Dead SELFWEIGHT Y -1 MEMBER LOAD 2 UNI GY -1.5 ************************ Keep entering cases until all entered ******************* LOAD 2 LOADTYPE LIVE REDUCIBLE TITLE Live
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24/11/13

Re: P-Delta effect plus Time-History analysis or Response Spectrum analysis. - Structural Analysis and Design Forum - Structural Analysis and Design -

MEMBER LOAD 2 UNI GY -2 2 CON GY -2 3 PERFORM ANALYSIS CHANGE ***************** Enter static case for computing member axial forces to be used only for member Kg matrices ***************** Alternatively all static loads could be entered into this one case ***************** or use repeat load to replicate the cases here. LOAD 3 LOADTYPE DEAD+LIVE repeat load 1 1.0 2 1.0 ***************** Case for modes and response spectrum (just before first dynamic case) LOAD 4 LOADTYPE SEISMIC TITLE Seismic X ***************** Enter all 3D masses to be considered times g here ***************** Solve X direction SELFWEIGHT X 1 SELFWEIGHT Y 1 SELFWEIGHT Z 1 MEMBER LOAD 2 UNI GX 1.5 2 UNI GY 1.5 2 UNI GZ 1.5 2 UNI GX 2 2 UNI GY 2 2 UNI GZ 2 2 CON GX 2 3 2 CON GY 2 3 2 CON GZ 2 3 SPECTRUM CQC IBC 2006 X 1 ACC DAMP 0.05 LIN ZIP 92887 SITE CLASS B TL 8.000 *******************************
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24/11/13

Re: P-Delta effect plus Time-History analysis or Response Spectrum analysis. - Structural Analysis and Design Forum - Structural Analysis and Design -

PDELTA KG ANALYSIS CHANGE **************** Solve Z direction LOAD 5 LOADTYPE SEISMIC TITLE Seismic Z SPECTRUM CQC IBC 2006 Z 1 ACC DAMP 0.05 LIN ZIP 92887 SITE CLASS B TL 8.000 ******************* Combine first two static cases algebraically ******************* then SRSS the two directions of RSA and add to static LOAD COMB SRSS 6 LOADTYPE NONE TITLE SRSS Combination Load -1 1.0 -2 1.0 4 1.0 5 1.0 1.0 ******************* Combine first two static cases algebraically ******************* then SRSS the two directions of RSA and subtract from static LOAD COMB SRSS 7 LOADTYPE NONE TITLE SRSS Combination Load -1 1.0 -2 1.0 4 1.0 5 1.0 -1.0 PERFORM ANALYSIS

Posted by chaz on Sat, Sep 15 2012 3:36 AM

STAAD.Pro developers please answer the queries of PaulY. Thank you.

Posted by PaulY on Fri, Jul 3 2009 5:35 AM

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Re: P-Delta effect plus Time-History analysis or Response Spectrum analysis. - Structural Analysis and Design Forum - Structural Analysis and Design -

Raycxxx, According to your reply, it seems that the repeat load command can be replaced by putting the Load 1 and Load 2 in one load case (if the factors are unity in this case). The commands can be reduced to as follows: LOAD 1 Dead + Live * * Dead Load SELFWEIGHT Y -1 MEMBER LOAD 2 UNI GY -1.5 * * Live Load 2 UNI GY -2 2 CON GY -2 3 Then Load 4 for repeat load is not necessary. Am I correct? My another question is that you mentioned "For PDELTA the cases with both horizontal and vertical forces will have more of the Pdelta effect." However, you only use REPEAT LOAD for vertical loads; the horizontal loads (seismic) is inclued later using LOAD COMBINATION. The veritcal and horizontal loads are not "combined" together as what you mentioned. Second, when you use response sectrum analysis together with P-delta effect. Does the modal superposition take into account the geometric nonlinearity? Thanks, Paul

Posted by raycxxx on Tue, Apr 28 2009 11:13 PM

A better choice of input is as follows: Ensure that you have requested enough modes. The default 6 is often not enough. CUT OFF MODES 20 LOAD 1 LOADTYPE DEAD TITLE Dead SELFWEIGHT Y -1 MEMBER LOAD 2 UNI GY -1.5 LOAD 2 LOADTYPE LIVE REDUCIBLE TITLE Live MEMBER LOAD 2 UNI GY -2 2 CON GY -2 3 Combine the static cases for PDELTA. For PDELTA the cases with both horizontal and vertical forces will have more of the Pdelta effect.
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Re: P-Delta effect plus Time-History analysis or Response Spectrum analysis. - Structural Analysis and Design Forum - Structural Analysis and Design -

LOAD 4 LOADTYPE NONE TITLE Repeat Load REPEAT LOAD 1 1.0 2 1.0 To have the PDELTA effect in dynamic cases, place the case just before the PDELTA KG Analysis command. The dynamics will include the Kg matrix from the prior case (case 4). | [K+Kg] - 2 [M] | = 0 LOAD 3 LOADTYPE SEISMIC TITLE Seismic X SELFWEIGHT X 1 SELFWEIGHT Y 1 MEMBER LOAD 2 UNI GX 1.5 2 UNI GY 1.5 2 UNI GX 2 2 UNI GY 2 2 CON GX 2 3 2 CON GY 2 3 SPECTRUM CQC IBC 2006 X 1 ACC DAMP 0.05 LIN ZIP 92887 SITE CLASS B TL 8.000 Combine the static and dynamic by using the LOAD COMBINATION command. Create two cases: static + dynamic and static - dynamic since RSA dynamic results can be + or - . If there are 2 or more dynamic cases, you should combine those dynamic cases with SRSS option in LOAD COMBINATION. LOAD COMBINATION 5 LOADTYPE NONE TITLE LOAD COMB 4 1.0 3 1.0 LOAD COMBINATION 6 LOADTYPE NONE TITLE LOAD COMB 4 1.0 3 -1.0 The PDELTA KG command does not need iteration value or smalldelta. They are included. PDELTA KG ANALYSIS PRINT MODE SHAPES

Posted by Raymelito on Sun, Apr 26 2009 11:01 PM

Dear Seniors: When I want to make a Time-History analysis or a Response Spectrum analysis is necessary to make a Pcommunities.bentley.com/products/structural/structural_analysis___design/f/5932/p/22867/51141.aspx#51141 6/8

24/11/13

Re: P-Delta effect plus Time-History analysis or Response Spectrum analysis. - Structural Analysis and Design Forum - Structural Analysis and Design -

Delta analysis to include the second-order effect due the deformation of the structure produced by horizontal forces. STAAD is capable to make a P-Delta effect without any problem, but in its TECHNICAL REFERENCE says: A PDELTA ANALYSIS will correctly reflect the secondary effects of a combination of load cases only if they are defined using the REPEAT LOAD specification... Secondary effects will not be evaluated correctly for LOAD COMBINATIONS But the REPEAT LOAD specification says: RESPONSE SPECTRUM LOAD and TIME HISTORY LOAD should not be used in REPEAT LOAD. It is also not available for loads generated using the program's load generation facilities such as UBC LOAD Generation, WIND LOAD Generation, MOVING LOAD Generation, etc My question is: How I can to combine several loads case including Time History or Response Spectrum load case, or any other load derivate from generation load facility, to make an appropriate P Delta analysis? Its necessary to model the totality of the mass of the structure in the same directions to avoid that the mass be canceled. That's why is extremely necessary to "combine" it effect in one way (positive) and in the other way (negative) with the rest of the common load case like dead, live and others. How I can do that and reach an appropriate P Delta effect analysis? I give you an example where I've defined a seismic load case using the response spectrum analysis, you can see the error that STAAD give me back because I use response spectrum in a repeat load specification. 25. LOAD 1 LOADTYPE DEAD TITLE Dead 26. SELFWEIGHT Y -1 27. MEMBER LOAD 28. 2 UNI GY -1.5 29. LOAD 2 LOADTYPE LIVE REDUCIBLE TITLE Live 30. MEMBER LOAD 31. 2 UNI GY -2 32. 2 CON GY -2 3 33. LOAD 3 LOADTYPE SEISMIC TITLE Seismic X 34. SELFWEIGHT X 1 35. SELFWEIGHT Y 1 36. MEMBER LOAD 37. 2 UNI GX 1.5 38. 2 UNI GY 1.5 39. 2 UNI GX 2 40. 2 UNI GY 2 41. 2 CON GX 2 3
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Re: P-Delta effect plus Time-History analysis or Response Spectrum analysis. - Structural Analysis and Design Forum - Structural Analysis and Design -

42. 2 CON GY 2 3 43. SPECTRUM CQC IBC 2006 X 1 ACC DAMP 0.05 LIN 44. ZIP 92887 SITE CLASS B TL 8.000 45. LOAD 4 LOADTYPE NONE TITLE Repeat Load 46. REPEAT LOAD 47. 1 1.0 2 1.0 3 1.0 **ERROR- CASE BEING FACTORED IS DYNAMIC. CASE= 3 48. PDELTA KG 15 ANALYSIS SMALLDELTA PRINT MODE SHAPES

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