Is the turbine entry gas temperature equal to Adiabatic flame temperature in the combustion chamber of gas turbine?

Joshua PartheepanStudent at University of Strathclyde Hi all, I am working on turbine design project for my MSc, i would like to know is the adiabatic flame temperature of the gas in the combustion chamber can be taken as the gas turbine entry temperature for designing a gas turbine cycle. If there is any loss in temperature, what might be the percentage ? Will there be any Pressure drop in the combustion chamber? Please give an industrial assumptions for designing a cycle effectively.

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Steve Ryan, Rudolph Gebhart (rudygebhart@ymail.com.com) like this 20 commentsJump to most recent comment

Steven Steven Kessler Owner, Energy Trainers International

I can't give you specifics, but flame temperature will not equal turbine inlet temperature. Depending upon the burner design, you may have NOx water or steam mixing in. Cooling air, entering around the combustion chamber will also reduce the overall temperature as it mixes with the hot exhaust gas entering the turbine. All these values will vary from one turbine design to another.
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Joshua Joshua Partheepan Student at University of Strathclyde To be particular, the design is to burn hydrogen and oxygen at stoichiometry, but the flame temperature is high so saturated steam is diluted with fuel to reduce the flame temperature from 3200 to 1500 C, the efficiency of the combustion chamber is 98 %, the pressure of fuel and steam entering the combustion chamber is 20 bars, so what might me the temperature of steam entering the turbine?
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James James Kugler Thermal Performance Engineer Turbine inlet temperature is a mixure of the items Steven mentioned plus any blade cooling air used to protect most turbine inlet stages. If the turbine inlet is reduced to 1500 C, then the steam entering the turbine is heated to 1500 C as well. You calculates the

turbine inlet enthalpy and temperature based on a power balance and energy balance around the combustor. See ASME PTC 22 for how to calculate this.
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Alberto T. likes this

Arunkumar Arunkumar Dalaya General Labourer at Malpack Strech Film No, because secondary air would bring down the temperature of flue gases coming out from combustion chamber hence flame temperature can not be taken as turbine inlet temperature.
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Joshua Joshua Partheepan Student at University of Strathclyde Thanks for the comment, so If the flame temperature is 1500 C, from my understanding, the turbine entry temperature will be 1100 - 1250 C, is that correct?
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Arunkumar Arunkumar Dalaya General Labourer at Malpack Strech Film It would be governed by what material you are able to provide for turbine blades and many other design factors as stated above by Steven and James. Range seems reasonable. Select two sample case studies for your project calculations if permitted. It might give an added advantage to the reader to be able to perform cost benefit analysis of two different materials chosen for the turbine components. Good Luck.
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Joshua P. likes this

Jeff Jeff Fassett Owner, IEM Energy Consultants Inc The turbine inlet temperature is generally a calculated temperature at the discharge of the first stage turbine nozzle/vane, inlet to the 1st stage rotating. Flame temperature will be much higher.
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Alberto T. likes this

Devendra Devendra Rajpal Sr. Application Engineer at Siemens Industry, Inc Normally air compressors are having multistage. Turbine inlet temperature also depends on multi (1st, 4th & 10th) stage air discharge pressures and temperatures. Also ambient tepmperatures and main inlet filters "Delta P" equally important.
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Rodney Rodney Gay President at MapEx Software Current industrial gas turbines of the "F" class have firing temperatures equal to about 2450 F (1343 C). This is the temperature at which the combustion gas enters the expander to create power. In other words it is the first stage rotor inlet temperature. The first stage nozzle inlet temperature (combustor exit temperature) is about 2620 F (1437 C). The flow rate at the first stage rotor inlet is equal to about 87% of the compressor inlet air mass flow plus the fuel mass flow. This is because approximately 23% of the compressor inlet air is sent to the expander for cooling instead of going on to the combustor. However, 10% of the inlet air flow is used to cool the first stage nozzle. This portion of the cooling air flow makes power and is called fully "chargeable" in that it is heated to the firing temperature and enters the expander where power is first being made (first stage rotor inlet). Thus, 13% of the inlet air flow enters the expander after the first stage rotor (as cooling air) and is not fully chargeable. The firing temperature is limited by the maximum allowable metal temperature on the blades which is about 1800 F (982 C). If you burn hydrogen and inject steam the heat transfer coefficient between the hot gas and the metal surface will increase because of the high water content in the combustion gas. The firing temperature will need to decrease below 2450 F in the presence of so much water, not sure how much. The flame temperature in the combustor is limited to about 2700 F(1482 C) because of

NOx production. When oxygen and nitrogen are heated above 2700 F they form NOx, can't let this happen. Dry low-NOx combustors avoid stoichiometric conditions (use twostage lean-lean combustion) in order to keep the NOx low. If the flame temperature drops much below 2700 F, CO will be generated. Thus, there is a sweet spot around 2700 F.
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Udhayakumar Venkataraman, Lukas S. like this

Rodney Rodney Gay President at MapEx Software One more comment: a 98% thermal efficiency for the combustor is terrible. We usually use 99.5% in our models. A 2% pressure loss is reasonable, but not 2% energy loss. If 2% of the fuel were not being combusted, emissions would be huge. If 2% of the fuel energy were being dumped into the gas turbine enclosure, the enclosure would need a cooing system.
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Byron Byron Wooldridge

Engineer The combustor(s) has primary (combustion air) inlets and secondary (cooling air). (It is actually a lot more complex than that with staged combustion and premix combustion.) Depending upon the gas turbine design, there are also cooling air inlets on the transition piece(s). I have to disagree with Mr. Gay about the heat transfer coefficient increasing due to presence of water as most gas turbines use film cooling of the blades so that cooling air is bled through holes located on the leading edges and the flow surfaces of the blade forming a film of cooler gas along the surface. Granted, the heat content of water vapor on a BTU/# basis is double that of the oxygen depleted hot gases (nitrogen, oxygen etc) and the radiant heat emission is higher but without the CO2 radiant heat emission, I believe the radiant component of heat transfer will be close to the same. There is a bit of pressure drop in the combustion chamber and transition. It is small but it is there.
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Anisur Rahman likes this

Jeff Jeff Fassett Owner, IEM Energy Consultants Inc @Rodney, Glad to see you weighed in on this. Good answer doctor. Byron, you are some what accurate in your disagreement with Dr. Gay, what should be stated is that addition of water impacts the "...hot-gas transport properties. Higher gas conductivity, in particular, increases the heat transfer to the buckets and nozzles and can lead to higher metal temperature and reduced parts lives..." (GER 3620F, page 8).
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Byron Byron Wooldridge Engineer Jeff, Would the quoted statement be true if there is no CO2 in the combustion gases?
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Jeff Jeff Fassett Owner, IEM Energy Consultants Inc Yes, I do believe so, but Rodney would be better suited to respond to that.
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Byron Byron Wooldridge Engineer I was wondering because the use of steam injection for power augmentation, for example in STIG units, also significantly increases mass flow through the turbine section. The

increased mass flow has slightly more CO2 and a lot more water vapor--both significantly higher radiant emissivity than nitrogen and any remaining oxygen in the stream. Plus, the increased massflow would likely effect the boundary layer thickness around the blades making film cooling less effective perhaps.
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Jeff Jeff Fassett Owner, IEM Energy Consultants Inc @Byron, You are correct, and it is precisely this issue that is being addressed in GER3620, where I drew my quote from. Consequently, GE has two control curves in most gas turbines, a wet and a dry curve, and will adjust their firing temperature to compensate for the increased metal temperatures being experienced by the buckets.
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Lukas S. likes this

Arunkumar Arunkumar Dalaya General Labourer at Malpack Strech Film Hi Joshua, with reference to your question @ Please give an industrial assumptions for designing a cycle effectively. You need m Cp DT at each stage to know the power extracted in the cycle. Coming back

to flame temperature, from hydrogen and oxygen mass flows and specific heat released, you know the heat input to the cycle, Saturated Steam injection @ 220 degree will not have very significant impact on heat addition except increased mass flow through the turbine blades, m and to some extent on Cp. Flow of air is bit complex as primary air after combustion would get mixed up with secondary air ( major portion). Subsequent air flow additions through each stage cooling air would increase mass flows at each stage however that increment may not be significant as compared to secondary air flow. You need to find out how much weightage you want to give for cooling air addition. Production of NOx may absorb some energy from that released due to the heat source i.e. H2/O2 reaction and its impact upon energy input to turbine inlet. Just a couple of points to ponder if helps.
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Gorgui souleymane Gorgui souleymane DIENG Oprateur Salle des Machines chez Senelec hi sir i learn a lot of solutions and analysis done my problems. I work at a power plant in senegal precisely to the C 7 thermal power Kahone I'm living machinery operator with tracking six groups Wartsila w18v46 with a supply of 90 mw on the interconnected network. Actually I do not want to be indiscreet we have a problem on all of our boilers and as you know wartsila uses the exhaust connected to the input of the boilers to produce steam with an extra water system but we note that all boilers have sudden infections. which leads us to the finish to observe internal ruptures causing huge leaks. thereby pushing even shift supervisor to isolate a few due to losses on the treated water tank of the plant. please guide us in the search for solutions to remedy thank you for your contribution.
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Jeff

Jeff Fassett Owner, IEM Energy Consultants Inc @Gorgui, I see you have a significant problem in your fleet of Wartsila engines, but I would like to suggest that since it is not germane to the discussion on adiabatic flame temperatures in gas turbines, that you consider starting a new discussion do that it will get more attention.
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Udhayakumar Udhayakumar Venkataraman Executive Director Operations, Gurgaon, NCR Delhi @Mr. Jeff ...correct. if Steam or water injection is used for NOx control, the EOH increases by a factor more than 1 approx 1.5 to 2 times pulling the machine earlier to halt for maintenance. DLN is the best in my opinion ... forget on NOx formation. Take GE 6FA+e having good feature on this also on Maintenance between stops. Suggesting please.
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