Transcripcion de Una Entrevista A Contructores y Diseñadores de Puentes

Constructability Review US101: Columbia River [Astoria-Megler] Bridge September 19, 2011 10:00 Noon (PDT) Attendees: Eric
c Holland Lonnie Lade Jamie Staehely Steve Smith Grover Lee Bill Jablonski Paul Christiansen Troy Palmrose Quentin Smith Ivan Silbernagel Ray Bottenberg Corissa Anderson Janice See Shane Terwilliger Chris Suits Project Name: Verbatim Transcription Bill Unknown [00:10:9] Bill Unknown [00:00:18] Bill Okay. Well start with doing introductions here in Astoria, and then whoever is on the phone, well start with that and see if we can talk you through it. Okay, great. Were you able to get access to the site there with the plans and specs and information? Yeah, weve got those all paper copies in front of us. Okay. One thing you wont have is the agenda for today. There are only a couple of items, though. Well just walk you through that and then as we go to certain pages, well just tell you. You wont be able to see it on the screen, but well get there. Well, I want to welcome everyone to the U.S. 101 Columbia River AstoriaMegler Bridge Painting Constructability Review. This project is scheduled to go to let January 12, 2012, so just a couple of months, and this is a voluntary discussion and meeting today. Weve invited the contracting community to discuss some of the issues that internally ODOT is having with this project as far as putting together our final plans and specs to go out to bid. We want to see if we could get some weigh-in from the contractors to see, you know, some ideas or how things might work or what some feedback might be. What Id like to do is go around and introduce ourselves, who we are, where were from. Ill start here in Astoria, work the room, then well go to the folks on the phone. Again, Im Bill Jablonski. Im the Project Leader based here in Astoria, Oregon. Im Troy Palmrose. Im the Project Inspector. Janice See, Area Admin. Im taking minutes today. Eric Holland with Wildish Standard Paving. Were a general contractor out of
Page 1 of 27
Wildish Standard Paving Abhe & Svoboda, Inc. Inspector Designer S & K Painting FD Thomas (by phone) ODOT Project Leader ODOT Project Manager ODOT Project Inspector ODOT Engineering Director ODOT Construction ODOT Senior Corrosion Engineer (by phone) ODOT Regional Environmental Coordinator (by phone) ODOT Area 1 Admin ODOT Specifications (by phone) ODOT Assistant Project Manager US101: Columbia River [Astoria-Megler] Bridge
Troy Janice Eric
Constructability Review US101: Columbia River [Astoria-Megler] Bridge September 19, 2011
Lonnie Paul Jamie Steve Ivan Chris Suits Quentin Bill Unknown [0:02:17] Bill Grover Ray Corissa Shane Bill Various Voices Bill Corissa Unknown [0:03:02] Bill
Eugene. My name is Lonnie Lade. Im with Abhe & Svoboda. Im Paul Christiansen. Im Project Manager with ODOT in Astoria. Jamie Staehely, Inspector Designer with the Astoria construction office. Im Steve Smith, S & K Painting. Ivan Silbernagel, ODOT Construction. Chris Suits Assistant PM in the construction office for ODOT. Im Quentin Smith. Im Engineering Director for this project. Okay. Could everyone on the phone hear all that? Yes. Okay. Lets go with the folks on the phone. I see theres five of you, so go ahead. This is Grover Lee with FD Thomas. Ray Bottenberg, Senior Corrosion Engineer with ODOT. Corissa Anderson, Regional Environmental Coordinator for ODOT. Shane Terwilliger, Specifications. Okay. Hey, thank you very much. Just checking in on everyones technical side. Was everyone able to get access through their Web browser to see the agenda on their screen? Yes. Very good. Can everyone hear everyone in the room? Yes Reasonably. Reasonably. Okay. Well, if you have a problem, please speak up. We can move some mikes around closer to some people, so we can work on that, but you have to let us know. Okay. I just want to go over the agenda items that you see on the screen there. Were going to review the project scope and schedule. Were going to have Quentin, Ray, and/or Ivan kind of weigh in on that, on what the purpose is of the project as well, mainly do existing conditions and some background information about this section of the bridge. Well have an open discussion on the containment options. As you know, its a pretty large span there that has to be coated, blasted and coated, and we would like to have some input on the containment options that you see in the specs information. Some of that containment is based on wind speed or wind load on the bridge itself and some of the issues with that. We also have a discussion with noise impacts. We did meet with our ODOT noise folks last week and got a report from them. It looks like were going to have some pretty high decibels that are going to be really close to some local hotels. Being that this is a high tourist area, most of the painting is done in the summer months or the, you know, a larger amount of painting and blasting can be done in the summer months when the weather is good which means were going to have a lot of influx of people here. There might be some politics involved on scheduling and what activities we can do during those months as well. Then we have, what else is on the agendatraffic restrictions. We will have to get, for the City of Astoria, a permit to work at night. And if we have these decibels that we are supposedly predicting that we might see, especially on the south span of this section of the bridge, we might get some political pushback from the community and the City on getting any kind of permit for working at night. Again, we dont know for sure. These are some of the components that were still trying to iron out and deal with as we head to final plans. And then any others that come up, issues and stuff that arent covered, well see what we have time for in the two hours. Any
Page 2 of 27
Quentin
Ivan Corissa Ivan
Quentin Ivan Unknown Ivan
questions on the agenda? Okay. Im going to pass it over to our bridge specialists Quentin, Ivan, and Ray. You want to talk about your existing conditions of this section, a little background on it, then maybe the purpose of the blasting and the coating work? Well, the first part of the project is fundamentally painting everything above the bridge rail for the three main spans in the bridge. There is extensive rusting on the bridge. There are a lot of rivets that will have to be replaced because the rivet heads are substantially corroded. And, we are also going to completely replace the stair system that allows access to the very top of the bridge in two places. Were going to repair replace the platforms that are for access for the navigational lights. Thats not in the papers that were submitted to you. Thats been added to the project, but those platforms are going to be replaced. And then, lastly for the wind braces that exist on either side of the main piers, we have the items shown as torsional stiffeners for stiffening the vertical beams. There are 64 of those and were replacing those as well. I think most of the corrosion on the bridge is general corrosion. We dont think theres a lot of deep pitting, we dont think theres places that will need repair. [7:30] There has been some cracking in the bridge but most of that has been already repaired in another contract. So, to our direct knowledge, theres no major steel repairs that will exist as part of this work. The project includes completely sandblasting and removing all of the existing paint and evidence of corrosion. We know theres red lead paint, original lead paint from the original building of the bridge. Theres black oxide down there as well. We believe theres chromates in the paint thats there and so full containment will have to be done with protection from lead for the employees. Its a three-coat system; moisture-cured urethane with striping required for all edges and fastener heads and other similar locations. So on those areas will be five coats of paint, and then on the general flat surfaces, there will be three coats of paint. I dont know what else to say about the project. You said moisture-cured urethane. Were not specifying moisture-cured urethane. Its QPL which has some epoxy systems too, but Youll probably need to speak up, Ivan. Quentin said moisture-cured urethane. Were not specifying moisture-cured urethane. Were specifying our QPL list which has moisture-cured urethanes and epoxy system. But that, I think, is a good description of the work. The only thing Id add is rivet work, what I remember is a lot of them were on the laterals, the box, like the portals and the big laterals, quite a few. I mean, theres a series of 50, 60, 70, 80 rivets in a row that may need to be replaced. Another question I have, weve had discussion, I dont know whether weve got it in or out, talked a little bit about maybe water jetting some pack rust? I personally dont think we need to do it, but theres still some discussion about that, and that would involve, you know, ultra high-pressure water jetting specific crevices that are bulged with pack rust. It would add another dimension to the actual work type required out there. We dont have a list of specific places that we know have pack rust. We just suspect that there are places. And so, I guess at this time we dont even know whether its going to be in there or not. So, we may see that on the bid items, then, as a line item for that, for some quantity, then? Yeah, and then, continuing on, I assume everybodys had a chance to look at the preliminary specifications, in particular the containment requirements in allowable load and containment requirements, and I guess, start with comments about that because hopefully we could get some comments.
Page 3 of 27
Lonnie
Ivan Quentin Lonnie Quentin
Lonnie Quentin Lonnie Quentin
Phone Quentin Phone Quentin Unknown [0:15:08] Quentin Unknown [0:15:12] Unknown [0:15:15] Quentin Unknown [0:15:23]
Well, the one thing that I dont like is if no ones on site for more than four hours, we have to remove the containment ducts. Thats something Id like to what were dealing with now, pretty much keep our containments up start to finish till were done painting and then take them down. And if its high winds, you got to take them down, period. Okay. The criteria that were going by, I think right now, is at 30 mph, wed require them to be dropped, and I think we were talking about the 30 mph, we were talking about two bays? Yeah, the calculations that was based on the two, we had two bays per span and if the wind went above 30 mph or was expected to go above 30 mph, youd have to drop the tarps. The four hours off bridge is simply dealing with the fact -It would be daily because youre going to go home at night and not be there until the next morning. Yeah, so someone has to be able with very little notice to go up and drop the tarps. Thats what the four hours is about. If youre going to leave and youre not coming back, then you take the tarps down. If someones going to be there who can take them down, then they stay up. Okay. Now, what if we spray paint all day and were going to go home at five oclock, I have to drop the tarps and all that, wet paint is going to be in my way. Of the tarps? Of the containment. Everything inside the containment is going to have wet paint on it, and you expect us to drop the tarps before we go home. Well, it is the problem. The problem that were trying to deal with is that this bridge is a fragile structure. And a major windstorm would damage the bridge, and avoiding damage to the bridge is paramount. And so, how do we be sure that we dont have a 50-mile-an-hour windstorm, a 90-mile-an-hour windstorm thats, you had, on the other end, that doesnt end up bending the beams of this bridge because the tarps are still up? So, we have to have some ways to be assured that the tarps will come down if a storm blows into Astoria. One way is that they always have to come down or there always has to be somebody there. You know the way we can do that, but some way or other, the tarps have to come down. We cant have them blow down, and thats the problem weve been trying to deal with. We would accommodate some setup in which were certain that if a storm comes in, somebody would be out there, would stop the traffic, would get up there and get the tarps down. So, are you basing that on, you say, two bays within any structure, complete containment over the full two bays? Yes, and the since the original drawings were, you know, done, and weve talked about this, weve also said one bay per span in 40 mph. One bay would encase two plumb bows then? Yes, opposing either side. So the containment could be about 60 ft, 55 ft wide? Yes, something like that, yes. The bays are 44 ft, so it would be -I think 30 mph is way too restrictive in any situation. Yeah, but the model says that the bridge -And that daily thing, it just makes the job undoable. You cant take the tarps down every day and put them back up. Youll be out there taking tarps down and putting them up constantly and not get any work done.
Page 4 of 27
Quentin Grover [0:15:33] Unknown [0:15:38] Quentin Lonnie [0:15:58] Unknown [0:16:07] Ivan Unknown [0:16:24] Lonnie [0:16:34] Phone Lonnie [0:16:42] Ivan Lonnie Ivan Unknown Lonnie Ivan Lonnie Ivan Lonnie Ivan Lonnie
I understand. Especially during the lead work. Yeah, you got lead contamination. You cant clean the containment up well enough to drop the tarps, especially in here near town and then well have that lead dust and whats left up thereit would just blow all over. So, thats the answer to the question. Plus, that size of a containment, youre looking at three to five hours to get them down so you can go home that night. It takes that long to get them down. It takes twice as long to get them back up. If Im hearing you right, basically its you cant do it, is what theyre saying; you cant spend the day building tarps and get any work done and then spend the rest of the day tearing it down. One of the things we discussed internally is, you know, what if we basically write the specifications that forces you to work 24/7? We could do that -That only works in certain months of the year. Well, yeah, youd have to focus your -I mean, thats about three months of the year. Well, youd get more than that. Not necessarily. The other problem thats come up recently with that is the noise issue. Yeah, I think based off our recent discussion; the high reality is were not going to be able to work at night, so that throws that out the window. It hasnt been confirmed yet, but Im just from what Im hearing, thats the way its going to -Why dont you identify that the contractor has to start at the far end of the bridge? That gives the community time to figure out what youre doingseveral years to figure out what youre doing before youd really impact the town. I dont know if that would help. They would still complain when we got here. Well, they would complain youre there but noise wouldnt be an issue if you were clear out there. So we have envisioned zippered windows in the tarps. Weve envisioned Velcroed windows in the tarps that could be pulled down rapidly. Lots of ways in which they can be pulled down quickly for the storm. The point is the storm. I worked here last winter and its the winter months you have to worry about. Now, this past three to four months weve had have been beautiful. Why would we take our tarps down if its sunny and 80 degrees and theres no wind for two months? Again, were only trying to deal with a situation in which a storm blows into Astoria and its going to be nasty weather. Does ODOT have enough time to do a big contract like this and say, Hey, lets just plan a winter shutdown for the next three to five years to get the bridge done and concentrate on working in the good weather months which you get maybe five up here? Because we tried doing this last winter and we got blown off the bridge for a couple of days and the next couple of days go up there and fix the containment tarps and then wed get blown off the bridge for a couple more days. So the work season up here is short. Well, you know, another part of that, lets say you could only work six months out of the year and you had to do one bay at a time, could you get it done in three years? How many -Page 5 of 27
Ivan Lonnie
Ivan Lonnie Unknown [0:19:05] Lonnie [0:19:14] Unknown [0:19:22]
56. 56 bays. 56 bays, and we could have three up. You could have two per span and there are three spans, correct? Two bays per span at 30 mph. So you could have six containments up over the whole bridge, correct? Two per span. Well, if you can do that, though, can youtraffic control has to be concentrated in one area, doesnt it? So you would be limited in what you could do in those other containments. I mean, you might be able to be up there painting versus if you had to blast, youd need all that equipment to blast up there. So thats another thing. I dont think you gave us any kind of idea of what the traffic control limitations were going to be time wise, lengthwise. This summer we had the entire bridge closed. I mean the length of the entire structure from one portal to the other portal, one entire lane was closed, and it, it worked pretty good. During the day? Yeah. What months were those? We just finished last week. It works pretty good. The only the biggest challenge was getting the first sign up, you know, because it goes right up here. Im pointing to the ramp. You on the phone cant see it, but thats the biggest challenge because when youre installing that sign support, youre backing up to the intersection, but once you get past there, you got a lot of storage room on this ramp. Steve, we got three days where we were told that we have to get off the bridge and then there could have been another three days where we shortened it up, removed half the crew, just made our lane closure as short as possible and that would have freed the traffic up. That was right around the holidays. Big weekend events, holidays When I was down here, like, last, Saturday I was coming from the Washington side and it had took me a half hour to get across this bridge basically because traffic was backed up at this light, and there was zero traffic control. And there was things going on, I guess, in Seaside and Long Beach. Its been pretty good. July 5th was the worst because there are fireworks shows, everybody stays late and spends the night because of the fireworks; nobody wants to go home at midnight. So, the next morning -There were two lane closures on the bridge for about the last two months, I think. On the near end or on the other end? So whats your guys, like, if they did like aif we implemented like a winter shutdown, lets say, I mean with that 30 mph spec, you probably have four or five months really where you can actually, you know, a working season Allowing us a very long lane closure, allow us two containments in all three spans About how long? Youre still looking at three to four weeks per containment. Theres a lot of work in
Page 6 of 27
Unknown [0:19:50] Unknown Unknown [0:20:02] Unknown Unknown [0:20:05] Paul
Lonnie [0:20:29] Unknown [0:20:44] Unknown
Unknown [0:21:07] Lonnie [0:21:22] Unknown [0:21:27] Unknown [0:21:28] Lonnie [0:21:45] Unknown [0:21:50] Lonnie
[0:21:53] Unknown [0:22:19] Lonnie [0:22:20] Unknown [0:22:21]
there. Its a big containment. Were looking at a month per containment, like were fighting that right now with a small containment. So youre looking at 10 moves, three years would be -Really tough. Yeah. Weve done this sort of thing before and its really the issue we run into is you can write a spec like that, but whose data do you use to interpret it because out on the spit here, it can be like a 35 mph wind and its calm here in Astoria. Youd use the airport, maybe thats pretty close. Maybe youd use the sensor on the bridge. And then you look at the forecast and in the summertime when we get the northwesterlies, its not unusual to have it, like, maybe in the 20s. So what happens when its like 25 every night? Is that close enough where we want you to drop the containment? So for the construction office, it becomes one of those things, so we kind of revert to, well, we look at the containment, if its the type thats going to tear away at 25, then we dont worry about it so much. But if its the sort of thing thats stiff enough to stay up there in a 25 mph wind, we might start looking at it closer. So, its really tough to write a spec thats going to cover all those sort of intangibles. Or if you try to do it, its going to be so restrictive that its really tough to build. If we want to use Acuweather as our rain and wind forecast, then great, you know, lets put that in the spec, but its not going to be accurate. But with that said, too, I think you have to be realisticwe have to be realistic on planning the time frame because 30 mph is something thats commonly in the forecast. Thats not an infrequent number through the majority of the year. You might not see it like during the peak summer months, maybe June, July, August, September, you wont see that, but sometimes you even see it then with north winds. I mean, its -Yeah, probably 98% of our 30 mph plus winds come out of the south. How big of a change would it be if we switched it from 30 mph to 40 mph? Before you answer that, are you talking sustained winds or gusts? Oh, actually both. Because what happens here is the gusts are usually like maybe 5 or 10 mph above the sustained it seems like. So currently, our specs currently, in the project at the north end, are we its 40 mph, and are those sustained winds or are those gusts? Sustained. Sustained. So should we be looking at sustained because that makes a difference too? Well, unless gusts are measurable, theres no point. Well, if were looking at forecasts. Then thatsyeah, if they forecasted it to be 55 mph gusts, I think wed want to do something. What if they tell you a gust -What if its 20 gusts to 30? You know, thats kind of hard. Yeah, I guess we just need to decide which one were talking about and then use
Page 7 of 27
Unknown [0:23:36]
Unknown [0:24:03] Ray Unknown [0:24:16] Unknown [0:24:22] Unknown [0:24:35] Unknown [0:24:44] Unknown [0:24:45] Ray Unknown [0:24:58] Ray Unknown [0:25:09] Unknown [0:25:11] Unknown
[0:25:14] Ray Unknown [0:25:38]
Ray Unknown [0:26:22] Unknown [0:26:23] Unknown [0:26:24] Lonnie [0:26:25] Unknown [0:26:31] Corissa [0:26:39] Unknown [0:26:40] Lonnie [0:26:45]
that. Thats the first thing. And then what was your question, Ray? How much benefit is there going from 30 to 40? Yes, and realizing that the size of the containments will roughly be half if you do that. When you go to 40, what Id say is in the summertime, sustained winds of 40 are very rare. I dont have any data, but just living here, Id say its very, very unusual. So Id say if you get sustained winds of 40 in the summertime, it would pretty much be a nonissue. And if we did see something like that, I got a feeling wed know it was coming; its not something thats going to come out of nowhere. In the wintertime, it would be a different story. How many months could you work with the reasonable expectation of not getting above 40 more than a time a month or something? Lonnie says six. Ill say six. Yeah. Probably six. I will say you dont want to handle a tarp in a 30 mph wind. Probably like May through, possibly May through October. May, June, July, August, September, Octoberthats six, yeah. If youre lucky. And theres feathering on the edges of that. So lets say the contractors got six containments up there, I think the contractor should have one full day to prepare for a storm, not just get the call at 4:30 in the p.m. and say, Hey, you got a storm coming tonight, take it down. Youre going to need a lot of time to take a lot of tarp down. So if you could schedule it, if ODOT has the time, maybe youd allow a contractor to have one containment up during the winter months and then -Well, the difference with this spec and the spec that were using now is that this actually says if its in the forecast, so youd have, I mean, forecast, it might be a week out and we might be saying, Hey, the forecast next week says this day were going to have 50 mph winds. And so it will be up to contractor to get it down before that day. And obviously, its like Pauls saying, theres some uncertainty there because our forecasts change every day around here. So it might be, you know, for the contractor to wait as long as they think they can so they have the appropriate time to take it down. Well, we will, but I think ODOT should appoint someone to make that call and not leave it on the contractor because well leave them up. Okay. I like the idea of the 40 mph, though Raythis is Paul, just because its less frequent. It seems like if we use the 30-mile-an-hour, were going to always be on the edge and having to make a judgment call would be my guess. When you think about it, if it were 20 mph, it would be totally undoable; 30 mph gets a little more doable; 40 mph, it gets a little bit better. The forecasts get a little more accurate when you get into the higher wind speeds. Yeah, and it seems like, I mean, almost with every storm in the winter, at least, I mean, for those six months of the year, its pretty common to get 30 to 40 mph winds or gusts especially out there, but more closer to 30, you see them a lot. But getting up towards 40, thats not as common. Thats more towards the bigger
Page 8 of 27
Unknown [0:27:16]
Lonnie [0:27:53] Paul
Unknown [0:28:30]
Unknown [0:28:58] Unknown [0:29:14] Steve
weather events that we have here when we start getting up around 40 and above. When we were working up there this summer, there was a handful of days that they were 30 mph. And when it was 70 degrees out that as soon as the afternoon hits and the tide changes, its whipping up that river. So you got to think about that too. Steve here has some experience. Go ahead. Well, I was just going to ask if youve instead of just going by bay, did you try to do a different scenario for containment, like, being that the bridge is so high in certain places, could you do upper sections of containment that would be less restrictive? In other words, go halfway up above the tower there and build the containment from there up? Could you go four or five bays wide or -Well, wed have to do the load cases for that. Part of the problem -Yeah, at 40 mph, that would roughly correspond to the two bays, if you do that, Steve. Part of the reason that wein the original one we talked about bays, you notice as you get closer to the tower the bays get bigger -Bigger, and they get stronger, though, right? Yeah, so you can get a bigger load, so there is kind of a square footage. So, if you just look at the cross section there, you could have an area thats two bays. And if you were right at the tower, technically, half your containment would be at each span so you could go -Well, the way I see it, its possible to just go directly up some of those plumb posts with maybe a 7-ft wide containment, actually leave a void in there. Where the diagonals come up and meet the top cord, the next plumb post over, you could almost just build that as a single containment. It would only be 7 ft wide and actually leave a void in there. So, I guess Im asking is the square footage, you know, if you could limit the square footage and could you spread it out into more area? Or are you just going to call it two bays, or are you going to say so many square footage on one side? I think youre okay if were saying two bays and you want to put a skinny one here and a skinny one there as long as the area doesnt equal more than two bays, youre fine. Part of the problem here is the structures really pretty spindly but at every vertical youve got laterals across the roadway so youre going to have to contain that, which means an internal structure over the roadway. And there again, that containment might not be as movable. Weve had the discussion. Typically we require rigid containment adjacent to traffic, but Im hoping were not going to do that on this bridge because the actual steel is at least 5 ft away from roadway, so there shouldnt be any problem getting access to blasting around the truss like we do on a typical where the containment is either tight to traffic or tight to the steel. But another scenario Ive talked to some of the contractors about is if we write a spec, I mean, it could say something like, For 30 mph winds, youre allowed two bays at any one time in a span. One option might be to enclose the top cord, and say that takes up 30% of your allowable square footage, you could use the other 70% on the trusses or on the other members. My thought is that a lot of the steel, a lot of the blast, a lot of work is actually at the top cord. Thats where the connections are; thats the big box member. I think those are riveted top cords so youre going to have to blast both directions on the inside of the box. The truss members are for the most part rolled sections; there are some box sections. Most of those are welded, I believe. It should be easier other than the fact that theyre
Page 9 of 27
Unknown [0:29:45] Unknown [0:29:51] Unknown [0:29:55] Unknown [0:30:00] Unknown [0:30:00] Unknown [0:30:23]
Unknown [0:31:18]
Unknown [0:33:47]
Unknown [0:34:26] Unknown [0:34:40] Ivan [0:34:48] Unknown [0:35:02] Ray -phone [0:35:06] Steve [0:35:17] Unknown [0:35:47]
sloped and theres very little steel per square footage of containment. Thats what I was asking you about; just doing some more lineal feet on the top part of the bridge. Say you did six bays on the top part of the bridge starting from the beginning here, and you only brought it down from 10 ft below the top cord, can you do that? And then that would allow you to then make your bottom-up containments shorter and maybe larger. Instead of doing that as a full bay, youre doing the top, finishing it, then you come at another time below it and build up to wherever you started at the top. I dont think thats a problem at all. I mean, what were after is a limited square footage area in a span. And whether thats a-Should be able to do more at the top than you could doing a bay straight up because the weakest part is in the middle of that bay. There might be a little issue there though, if you had a great big sail in the very top of the truss overturning. Im not an engineer. I dont know. Well, that could easily be evaluated, though. Theres a large number of scenarios here that could be okay. The more you tell us in the preconstruction specifications, the better off a contractor is at trying to bid it. If you just say two bays, then, you know, its not a lot of information. So the more you evaluate it and say this is allowable or thats allowable, the better pricing I think youll get. Yeah, thats true. If we say, you know, if we just say bays, obviously, those vary as you go across the structure. If we say, like, say a square footage per span, thats a little better, but thats still going to vary as you go up and down on the structure, like Ivan was saying; you know, moment shear overturn. But like Steves saying, is the more detailed you can get is you can do this here and you can do that there, that will help a lot as far as the bidders problem. I dont know if that made any sense, but Well, the other thing we could do is weve talked about 30 mph versus 40 mph. If we put both of those in a specification and let the contractor select and maybe that would lead the contractor to using bigger containments in the summertime and then smaller ones in the winter. Is that worthwhile, I guess, that likelihood? If we lowered it to 30 mph, we have to drop the containment at 30 mph, will that work during the winter? No. One thing I mentioned to you a long time ago, I mean, you didnt like the idea, but its to instead of just doing above the railing, to do the bottom as youre doing your containments and coming through with it. I still think that is, in my opinion thats a more workable situation for the contractor because he has more work to do in a certain area. In other words, Im talking about doing the floor system and the upper steel in one contract. You could limit the contract to one span out there and you could probably get the far span done in a couple years. But I think that everything above the road, youre looking at more than three-year time frame. I mean, look at whats happening up at Lewis and Clark Bridge; thats going to end up taking five years, and theyve got time containments. That becomes a problem for us here. The stuff below deck is in better shape, but we still want to be able to get to it in, you know, four or five years or sooner. Yeah. Well, I dont know, does four or five years make that much difference? I mean, if you could actually get the bridge done and the whole bridge done in five years, if you did it in the way Im suggesting, I think youd be better off. Thats just my opinion. Yeah. Hard to say. The stuff above decks definitely got more issues. So the
Page 10 of 27
Unknown [0:36:17]
Lonnie [0:36:58]
Ray -phone [0:38:00] Lonnie [0:38:15] Ray -phone
[0:38:37] Grover
Ray -phone [0:39:20] Grover Ray -phone [0:39:37] Grover Unknown [0:39:55] Grover Unknown [0:40:24] Grover Unknown [0:40:38] Grover Unknown [0:40:56] Grover Tom [0:41:07] Unknown [0:41:08] Unknown [0:41:20] Unknown [0:41:24] Unknown [0:41:32] Unknown [0:41:36] Unknown Unknown Unknown [0:41:50] Grover Unknown Unknown
challenge here is to figure out a way to put in our specs, you know, lots of flexibility for the sizing and location of the containments and still have it safe. Hey, this is Grover at FD Thomas. You know, the square footage of the containment, when we talk about the square footage of the containment over two spans, obviously in the tall spans, right, youve got more footage than in the short spans. Yes. Height wise, so you take in the square footage of a containment, are you taking it on the side load of the bridge, like the wind blowing sideways, you know, through the bridge? Yes, thats what thats about, yeah. Uh-huh. That information would benefit the bid process to know what that square footage is. No matter where you put that footage in the span, it all equals, is that what were saying, its the same? No. The square footage allowed in the taller bays is bigger. Because youre closer to the tower, its stiffer. You can take a bigger lateral load from the wind so it works out about two bays, two bays anywhere depending on where youre at on this truss. Uh-huh. But then, whatever that nominal footage is, right, for that side load, we could spread that footage out anywhere on the bridge? Yeah. Well, we were talking about that criteria is allowable per span and you got three spans so you could put it -At that span. Yeah. So a containment that was built, that went over the road deck cross section of the bridge, but was only 10 ft wide at the vertical, it would still only account for 10 ft? Yes. Of width that went straight across the road deck to the other side? Kind of contain it the other direction versus that side? Yes. Yes. Like a rolling containment-type scenario or something like that. Yeah. 1800 is not very big either. Thats a small containment. Is that the number theyre throwing around, 1800? Is that for the roadway containment or the side containment? Any span does not exceed 1800 sq ft. I was just sitting here thinking if youre going to do one bay, its at least 50 ft wide, and say its 80 ft tall, thats 4,000 sq ft. Yeah. You couldnt even contain two bays. You couldnt even contain one bay -Thats one bay. Lets say the bridge is 100 ft high by 50. Well, theres 5,000 sq ft right there. For one area. We could do two, right? Each span. The containment, if the -No, hes talking about rigid containment on the traffic side, Lonnie. Thats a rigid containment.
Page 11 of 27
[0:42:10] Unknown [0:42:15]
Troy [0:42:38]
Grover [0:44:31] Unknown [0:44:42]
Unknown [0:45:10] Lonnie [0:45:20] Unknown [0:45:25] Grover Unknown [0:45:45]
Youre eliminating that, Ivan, I think thats what I heard because that requires you somewhere in here to take that down every day, the rigid containment. I think in this packet it says the rigid containment has to come down every day which would be worse than taking tarps down because that takes longer to take down and handle and put back up. That wont be in the final thing, and like I said, its likely to allow flexible containment there. The problem with that is that, you know, thats going to be right next to traffic, and if it gets windy, you know, its going to be relatively small. So the loading, I dont know if thats a huge issue, but traffic safety is a bigger issue. If it blows out, wraps around a car. But your question about, you know, if you wanted to put a -- looking at the bridge at elevation, do a 10-ft containment from the deck to the top and rolling through there, you need plenty. In reality you could have it, the bays are 44 ft so you could enclose, say, 50 ft and roll 50 ft at a time across the bridge and do it; one of those containments in each span. Like I said, if you looked at the plans, theres a fair amount of distance between the truss itself and the back of the rail. And theres some ability for you to put some type of a traveler on the back side of the railing for your internal containment and roll it across the span. The big thing is the wind speed, when you got to drop the tarps, and the cross sectional area, the wind loading. Let me ask this question: If you use containments smaller than what are designed, do you have to remove them? I guess my idea of that would be that your tarps are only going to be capable of carrying a certain load and thats, Id say, about 45 lbs and theyre going to start ripping apart. And whether you decide by yourself to take them down or we tell you to take them down because theyre going to blow into traffic, you know, its probably going to become a safety issue which we would require you to drop them. At what point would they start ripping apart45? It depends on how well you put them up. Theyll take 55-, 60 mph winds. New tarp will probably take a lot. On old tarp thats got a few holes in it, it wont take that much. It only takes one wind and your new tarps look like old tarps. I guess my question right now is youre basing it on a certain square footage. If we use less square footage, do we still have to take them down and not endanger the bridge? We didnt do the cases for that, but I think that thats probably accurate; that if there would be a higher, you know, if it was half, from top to bottom, if it was half the height, probably again, two bays at 40, then half the height would probably be all right. But again, getting the load cases run for every possible iteration of tarps is going to be an effort by itself. Ill add a little to that. There may be some issues with individual member loading when you get a small containment with higher winds, you get more concentrated loads so you got a bigger potential to bend an individual member. Yeah, theoretically what youre saying, Grover, is you might be able to come up with a curve on wind speed versus containment area, but then it gets complicated like what Ivans saying so its more like a 3D picture than a curve, you know. It depends on where that containment area is sitting what wind speed it will stand. Yeah, I dont know how we put a 3D picture in the specs. We havent done that one yet. But thats kind of what Im guessing our containment engineers would go through is youd propose it to our office, wed run it through them and theyd crank
Page 12 of 27
Unknown [0:46:20] Unknown [0:46:48]
Grover [0:47:35] Unknown Unknown [0:47:50] Grover [0:48:00] Unknown [0:48:12] Unknown [0:48:27] Unknown [0:48:49] Unknown [0:48:51] Unknown Unknown Bill [0:49:15] Quentin Unknown Quentin Unknown [0:50:00]
the numbers for that specific scenario. Actually, youre designer would do that, and then wed check it, so. How would you do that as a submittal before you bid the job? Oh, boy. How would that work? You mean, after we advertise it, you submit a proposed secret containment plan and then we would say yes or no to you and you could bid it? Well, I guess all Im saying is theres a lot of speculation here and the more information we have to bid the job, the better the prices. Youd change the contract to an A plus B plus C which is big enough, I think, dollarwise, you could probably do that where you would get a proposal from the contractor for time, price and experience or, you do it off, basically, their plan. Yeah, the magic button you pushed was a different way of bidding which is kind of like design-build but more along the lines of it would be a cost-plus the proposal where everybody would submit their plan and wed look at it and take what we thought was best. Something to consider for you. Something to think about. Well, at this stage of the game, I dont know if wed be able to switch to that kind of contracting though, so close to the Let date, so. Yeah, theres stuff we have to go through legally on our end to put out a bid like that. Anyways Hey, Quentin, when you did your analysis, did you consider the type of probably scaffolding or the what our containments going to consist of weight wise? I believe it was just based on the area that would be blocked off and how much force the wind would be putting. So, if a guy uses like a system scaffold, the additional weight, is that going to impact that at all? Well, I mean, we still have design load limits on how much the scaffolding can weigh and how far apart the attachment points are and all of that. Yeah, the specifications talked about how many pounds per square foot allowable. It also talked about some hanging points and I guess one thing to be aware of is if you put your scaffolding right over the roadway, the only thing to really hang it from is those spindly little lateral members which could create some issues. Thats another reason why I was thinking, you know, one containment at top cord because you got big members up there. You could hang scaffolding up there, and then something lighter down over the roadway where youre not going to have a lot of sand or equipment, you know, very little spent abrasive there. What is that number? We ought to probably talk about that. What was the live load? 2500 lbs. 2500 lbs each hanging. Thats page 29 on your spec book. Its 14 lbs per square foot. And I would suspect scaffoldings going to weigh, 5 to 5plus depending on what type you got. Do you know what were involved with at the north end on load per square foot? 4 ft lb, thats like a platform isnt it? It seems like thats what I remember from other jobs is the allowable pounds per square foot on a platform. Right. You dont have the specs?
Page 13 of 27
Unknown Unknown Bill Unknown [0:51:17] Unknown Unknown Unknown
Unknown Unknown [0:52:27] Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown [0:52:55]
Unknown [0:53:27] Unknown [0:52:48]
Unknown [0:54:36] Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown
I must not. This section I dont have the page number. This reads live load dead load, so that would be the actual platform itself plus any, you know, spent abrasive. What page are you on? 29. Mines not printed. Its in the -Point number 2. Point number 1, actually. I bet that thats going to youre going to get over that, I bet, because the bays are so tall. Youre talking about 14 lbs per square foot on your base or whatever your wherever your base is at, I believe. If you based it down on the very bottom on the top cord and then went all the way up for two bays, youre going to get over that 14 lbs per square foot. Well, Im thinking your scaffolding for the truss itself is probably going to be coming off the bottom cord, and youre going to have some kind of floor. I dont know that this would control thisthis what hes talking about is the scaffolding over the roadway. It would be any way that you installed on those two bays. Say you were doing two bays, it would be any way you installed on those is what theyre talking about, because generally speaking youre working from the bottom up with a platform and thats what that scenarios all about. That wording might need to be changed or something, but every job Ive ever done with you is we always had a platform under there and the weight is from the platform up. Any leg loading you put on that platform, scaffolding, just above it, tarps, miscellaneous stuffand your live load, which is your sand and water is not supposed to exceed 14 lbs per square foot. Normally your platforms here and everything ends up on here. Exactly. In this case, at minimum youll have a containment here, and were saying 14 lbs per square foot on that because its going to be hung every 44 ft or whatever -You dont know how were going to hang that, though. Yeah, we dont. You could have a frame here or whatever. But when youre talking about blasting all of this -Its all going to end up right there. Yeah. In reality, I think we can handle more than 14 lbs per square foot there. Exactly. But thats what Im saying, youre going to have to change your wording or make that more understandable or go through some scenario where if you build scaffold all the way up 50-ft wide. Its going to get way over 14 lbs per square foot, I believe, the scaffolding. It will. It will, and I think didnt we have maximum loading on this bottom cord? Did we ever talk about that? Yeah, we did. The new spec has it. So, well probably give you some allowable loads on this cord; so if your scaffold and any waste or whatever, those are going to be higher numbers. Yeah, I dont have those in front of me right now, but actually they were fairly generous. Theyre higher than 14 lbs per square foot? Yeah, they were -Talking about thousands of pounds. Yeah. It was like two point loads, 8,000 lbs each or something like that on each lower cord. How many pounds each?
Page 14 of 27
Unknown [0:55:25] Unknown Unknown Unknown [0:55:44] Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown Steve
Unknown Unknown Unknown [0:56:35]
Unknown [0:57:27] Unknown Unknown [0:57:46] Unknown Lonnie [0:58:00]
Unknown [0:58:35] Unknown Unknown [0:58:55] Unknown Unknown Unknown
Bill Paul [1:00:00]
Bill
Steve, I dont remember very reliably, so lets dont say right now. It wasnt, like, 2500 lbs. It was quite a bit more than that. It was thousands. Well, for instance, up there at Lewis and Clark, I havent been inside or anything, but Im pretty sure all theyre using for containment are cables, standoffs, and theyre using swing stages. So they have very minimal loading as far as that goes. A contractor could come out here and try and do it on this bridge, but I dont think he would last very long with just cables and standoffs and tarps. Well, I guess from the I dont know that we decided what the spec would say, but the three-year construction time frame, I mean, are you thinking thats way too short? Yes. With the idea we because we might want you to have more people and work -cost more money but get it done faster. But then on the other side of that, are we going to tell you to do something you cant do without giving us a ridiculous price, so I mean, if you have six months out of the year, thats only a year and a half to paint the bridge which is not going to happen. Yeah, you want six containments up there, youre limited to what you can do and how many guys you can put in a containment. If youre sandblasting in a containment, you can only have four or five guys in there. So, you have to have more than one containment in order to keep a crew working. Thats why I like my idea of having some work under the roadway to do during the winter so you can keep your crew working, or keep them working, you know, it just gives them more area to work. See, I was thinking one of the scenarios I looked at was about a 150- maybe even a 200-ft-long containment on the top cord. And that will give you room to work at least six blasters for three days. It would take longer than that to blast that much. Six blasters? When I say 150, youre only talking about three pound points plus 150 ft of box and then the big open wind bracing. I mean, I think our objective is to, I mean, we realize its a big structure and youre going to have to stick some manpower there. And, we dont want to dilly-dally, wait a year to start and -The other thing about this night work, theres probably work we could do at night, Im thinking. Painting? Yeah. I know its better to paint during the day and you can see stuff, but we may have to write a spec that just prohibits certain operations at night, you know, that sort of thing. We may be able to be okay with the noise, and the other thing, did this noise study, did it come from the City, by any chance, Bill? No, ODOT did it. ODOT did it? There was just this big redoing of the Darigold building downtown where they sandblasted a bunch of stuff at night and all the citizens got in a big uproar about it. So, everybodys pretty sensitive to these operations at the moment in Astoria. Who knows what its going to be like three or four years from now when we get into this job, but we might be able to do some stuff at night. Hey, so were talking about the schedule and Paul brought up the noise, its a good segue intoI met with the noise folks last week. Chris and Troy participated in the conference as well too. And anything over 65 decibels is when you start getting into issues where its uncomfortable as far as being able to stand next to each other and hear a conversation. And we gave the noise folks in Salem a list of all the equipment thats currently being used on the north span of the bridge. And they
Page 15 of 27
Corissa Bill Corissa Bill Janice Corissa Bill Janice Bill
Unknown [1:02:41] Bill
Unknown Bill Unknown [1:03:16] Unknown Bill
came up with decibels in excess of 100 as far as combined with all the pieces of equipment. And thats just for just doing like one bay. So if the contractor were to decide to put in, you know, three bays going at the same time, if you add all those decibels together, thats a huge amount of noise thats going to be generated. And on this chart here that I have on the screen, 100, 110 decibels is the equivalent of a jet flying over at a thousand feet. So you figure for the summertime, youre looking at 10 to 12 hours a day on average to have that type of noise going on, the community would pretty much come unglued, definitely at night. Especially with the hotels you have around the area, I can pretty much guarantee that that type of activity will not be allowed at night. Were getting background noise, Bill. What? Im getting a second conversation going. I cant hear. Someones talking, sorry, and youre getting blocked out. Okay. What was the last thing you heard, Corissa? I can hear some of them. But theres someone in the background talking so every once in a while his words are getting blocked out. So it only comes through a certain amount of time here. Okay. Okay. Yeah, were just hitting on the noise stuff and given the number of decibels that we expect the equipment to all be running, its very unlikely that well have any nighttime work with that type of activity. I would even go so far as politically the City could limit us as far as how much noise we can actually make during the day. So if youre looking at a schedule, we could be limited as well too the number of hours we can generate that type of high-decibel noise during the day. So that may have to add time to our schedule to do the job. Assuming you have to cover what you blast in one day, so I havent worked out the details yet, but that could be some pushback politically from the City. Youre talking about pre-Let, though. Are you talking about after the jobs let during construction theyd say, okay, now thats too noisy -No, this has to be decided before, you know, be a part of the contract as far as when we bid the job, but Im telling you, internally for ODOT, you might be looking at four or five years to do the job because summer months, its a prime painting time, but given the high tourism we have here, you might be limited to four or five a day of work only with those noise levels, for example. It might say, for example, no blasting before 9:00 a.m. and shut down by 5:00. Right. Is there a way to baffle the noise on any of the equipment? Close a traffic lane maybe. (overlapping conversations) You know, the north side of the span, probably not so much because were over a half a mile away from those places. So well probably get away with more. Then its as you close the center span, youre coming south where the noise actually, you know, youre closer to the hotels and some of the residences where youll probably get the most pushback. So youre definitely going to get more work the more north you go per day than you will as youre getting closer to the south side is my guess. Better to have a spec that set the spec at the receptor point rather than at the source because of what youre saying. Right.
Page 16 of 27
Unknown [1:04:00] Bill
Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown [1:04:45] Unknown Unknown
Unknown Unknown [1:05:30] Unknown Unknown Bill
Unknown Bill Lonnie Unknown [1:06:55] Bill Unknown Unknown Unknown Lonnie Unknown Bill Unknown [1:07:38] Lonnie Unknown
Youd probably do yourself a favor by going and taking some readings on Abhe & Svobodas work over there from certain distances away because your decibels at 65. You might hit 65 or less by getting 300 feet away from the source. I think they did that, but thats going to depend a lot on the wind. If youre downwind you hear it. If youre anywhere else, you wont. You need some measurements to know what, where to set it if youre going to set it pre-Let. We know that if youre in your hotel room with your windows closed, youre looking atyoure going to decibels of 75. Thats still pretty high. If youre looking at 65 is what the threshold is. So youre still in your hotel room with the windows closed and youre still hearing 75 decibels. I dont think youll hear it at 75 in your motel room down here. I think youre far enough away from the source that its not going to travel that far. We measured, like 85 right at the source. The northwest corner of the Holiday Inn Express is right below the bridge. So if youre at that location in that south part of the span, its going to be and so thats the most critical part right there. And that may only represent, you know, three months worth of work thats going to be done at that location. I dont know. Yeah, but, if its a calm night and you have the windows open -Well, I was with them when they were doing the sand plane over at the Cannery Hotel, and the manager was out talking to us and he was actually complaining about the current work. The nav lights ? The nav lights were making too much noise, so hes real aware. Now, a mitigation for that would be a contractor -- and this is totally your choice depending on, you know, for your employee housing and stuff, you might want to make a really good negotiation with one of those hotels and just kind of take over a hotel for four or five years. I just offer that up as a conversation you have with the hotel people. Because ODOT does not pay for any kind of disruption as far as construction goes. Thats not part of any right-of-way negotiation or any negotiation for that. That would be a political thing with the community, so. Noise is complaint-driven for the large part, so if nobodys complaining, then were fine. Because tolerance is different. No doubt that will have to be covered in the specs as well too. What about any area below the bridge here that we could spot equipment, or set up a yard? Is that going to be allowable? Hes talking about the park. Thats a no-work area. Thats a no-work area is right. Yeah. So this area right underneath the bridge here, yeah. And that gets your equipment a lot closer to the motel too, and thats going to be louder. Yeah, I think were envisioning all the work from the bridge deck. How about using a pier cap for any barge work? Is that going to be allowed? Spot some equipment on a pier cap? We took the barge out. We took the barge out, yup. With the environmental studies that we had to do for this job, we eliminated the barge. Not that we dont need one, but its a good option to have. I guess what youre thinking there is to put a compressor or something out on the
Page 17 of 27
Lonnie Unknown Lonnie Unknown [1:08:25]
Lonnie Unknown Unknown Unknown Lonnie Unknown Lonnie Unknown Unknown Bill
pier? A lot of equipment out on the pier. Vacuum truck, dust units, everything. Whatever you dont have to pull up there daily helps. And if you can keep it serviced on the ground, its -It would be a lot louder in the city if its sitting right there on that pier. Well see there, we could build a barrier wall. We could build a sound barrier and have our yard with a sound barrier wall around it a lot easier than you could do it up on the road deck and have to pick the lane up at the end of the night. Okay, theres two questions. One would be on the pier out in the water. The other one would be on the bank. On the bank I think weve decided that, no, no on the bank. On the pier, youd have to get out and back and forth and you got fueling and unfueling, hauling lead weight back and forth. You think that would be a feasible option that you would like to have? No. I was thinking of this little park down here. Oh, you were thinking on the bank. Do you want a ferry? No. The bank would be -Under the bridge, the closer you can get to it down there by the red building (reference to The Red Building and Loft) That would be the City. No, thats the City. Its part of the park. But thats Heritage Park down there, Memorial Park. Then youd have to run stuff through, and the noise can be really loud down there in front of the red building, anything right there, and I dont think it would fly. The noise is louder if you have line of sight of the equipment, so the fact that youre elevated, the folks in Salem found that it is then in your favor because you have your noise is going to be above you, rather than line of sight. The people who might complain are those on the houses (hillside) on the line of sight on the bridge deck itself, they may actually have a little more louder noise there than you would below the decks. You are too sensitive. I mean, the works got to get done, doesnt it? I hear you. I hear you. I mean, at some point you could say, well, if its under a certain decibel thats within lawful regulations, so bear with it. Yeah, I would hope we havent reached the undoable job here. Now, I dont know where you got your 110 decibelreading, but about three weeks ago I was on the bridge with a decibel meter right next to our loudest piece of equipment and we registered 91. And our loudest piece of equipment would run five to six hours a day only. Okay. Yeah, 100 is still too high. I think 85 is the legal limit, I think. 85 is acceptable, but 110 and 101, thats a big difference. If youre looking at four or five or six months of, you know, six to eight hours a day of that noise for five years -Well, and you got to remember when we started this off, were spending six of those eight hours just putting and taking down containment. Yeah, so you got two hours of work a day. So this is going to be Im going to float this campaign with the City and then meet with the individual hotel owners and theyll be very sensitive to it. There is a discussion about, you know, the bridge is a major life link between, as well as
Page 18 of 27
Ivan Bill Unknown Unknown Lonnie
Unknown Unknown Unknown Lonnie Unknown Unknown Unknown Bill
Unknown Bill Lonnie Unknown Bill
Unknown Bill Bill Janice Bill Unknown [1:13:48]
Bill Unknown [1:14:41] Unknown
Unknown Unknown
Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown Lonnie
commerce link, between Washington and Oregon. So youre right, the work has to be done. Back in 90. The lower part? 87. I was going to say that was just over coating, wasnt it? And then the rivet thing, too, is pretty critical. Its maybe about 10,000 rivets or so that have to be replaced and theres a certain amount of noise that has to be done with that as well. Now, those are structural things that have to be repaired if we want to be able to keep the bridge functional, so, theres some level that the community is going to have to accept. But we may have to be somewhat flexible too on the work timing, so that may bump up the schedule some months or so. Just for everyones information, there is going to be a mandatory pre-bid and we have it scheduled right now for December 4th. And, you will be required to be here and sign in and then you would be able to go over all the spec information based on todays conversation and whatever happens after today and then what goes out for bid. Youll have a chance to weigh in and be aware of the information that youll be bidding on to help with that, your number. What was that date? December 14th. It will be here in Astoria. Did I say the 4th? Oh, Im sorry. You did. Thank you. I wrote the 4th and then I go 14th, and I go, Im losing it. That was the 14th to the people on the phone. This is going to be a six-week ad, and so with the timing and all thats why we land on the 14th of December, so. I want to back up to the construction time and the containments. I was looking at the bays. The actual center span is 28 bays, and if we use the 30 mph, two bays at a time, that would be 14 containments. Assuming everything worked perfect and it took a month to do a containment that would be 14 months. Thats three summers. Assuming the end spans got to fit in there at the same time. It would be a pretty critical path. Yeah, there would be no dilly-dallying. Youre saying three years for the main span, and then you got twice as much or again as much in the two end spans. Well, you got three operations. The middle ones got 28 bays. The end ones are only 14 so you should be able to finish those 14 while youre doing these 28 and those 14, too. So you really got three separate operations going, the center one being the critical one. And then the contractors going to need three sets of equipment, one for each span. Well, yeah, and we figure on paying for the equipment. To get it done, youre going to have to have equipment and manpower. So maybe, you know, a month per two bays is probably okay if everything chugs along perfectly, but thats quite a bit of work. Is it doable, though? Could you do two bays in a month if youre working six months a year? Two short bays, maybe, not two tall bays. When I say two bays, Im talking about two bays in the middle span and two on each end. So six bays total in -Finishing six bays a month? I dont think so. Maybe the second year once you got everything up and running. I mean, youre
Page 19 of 27
Unknown Unknown Unknown Lonnie Unknown Unknown Lonnie Unknown Lonnie Unknown Lonnie Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown Lonnie Unknown Jamie [1:17:26] Unknown Unknown Unknown Jamie Unknown [1:14:48] Unknown Lonnie Unknown Unknown Jamie Unknown [1:18:19] Unknown Unknown [1:18:40] Unknown Unknown
not goingthe first summer, youre going to do a lot of rigging, a lot of setup. Maybe the critical path are the two end spans; you could do one plus the middle and then you do the middle. Two setups. That would be four bays going at a time. Yeah, I mean, that sounds like the best-case scenario, and we figured for the worst. Yeah, I think youre going to have to work on three spans at a time because youre going to be swapping containments. I mean, you finish span one, youre going to be working on -Whats the length of that bridge from end to end? 2500. 2500. So then youre looking at a 3,000-ft lane closure. Thats what I was saying earlier. Right now, this summer weve been dealing with a thousand ft lane closure and got caught with heavy traffic. But youre close to that light. Thats what hurt you. It doesnt matter. Theres still that much traffic on the bridge. We have a 3,000-ft lane closure up here like we did this last two months with the nav lights, that backs all the way down to the curb to the light here. Troy said thats all been okay, this traffic control that weve had up here this summer. What hours have they been working? 7:00 am to 5:00. 7:00 to 5:00 and its been okay even at 5:00. Weve had a long lane closure. I mean, at some points it gets bad, but its never been down to here ever. If theyre the only operation on the bridge, its actually went very well. I mean, Im talking for the, what we get feedback from the public. How many months? Its been for the last three months. Well, I mean, yeah, but weve been dealing for a couple years like that. Its been maintainable. Now, if theres anything else going on. Well, you got to keep the traffic flowing. I mean, you dont do where you hold both the traffic and have some operation going in the lane. No. Thats what Im talking about, stopping traffic for so long to do something. What are they doing up there that they need the whole bridge? They were installing solar lighting up there. This is where we had two operations. Maintenance had one contract operation. Troy has the other and it has caused a little bit of queue problems. I will be honest. Yeah. Its a little minor thing, but we bolted these, from where youre sitting, Steve, you can see a solar panel up there on the end. We bolted walkways to the top of that box meter so weve got to figure out what were going to do with that. I dont know how you paint the box meter under the walkway without taking it off. Just take it off. And a bunch of new platforms and railings were installed. Theres a lot of stuff thats going to have to get protected, a lot of stuff. Theres cameras up there, weather stations, everything. Its going to be a little complicated part of the job. Okay, Bill?
Page 20 of 27
Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown [1:19:15] Unknown Bill Unknown Bill Unknown
At that pre-bid meeting, are you going to have available access to get up there and look? December 14th? December 14th. Not allowed to get out of the truck over 25. Yeah, we definitely should. Okay. We can plan for it, but its just weather-dependent, of course. Its always good to do it in that way -Well, we do have enough information. Theres a lot of photographs and as far as the condition of the steel, but we can try and, we can plan to have access up into those girders up there. But as I say, weather-dependent. Yeah, you can, theres stairs going to the very top and then theres a ladder on the end there. So its either, the ladders scarier than the stairs, but depending on what the weathers like, you can get access. At a minimum, its probably a good idea even if nobody wants to climb around the superstructure because you can see what Ivan was talking about that room behind the barrier. So I can see we could take a lane for pretend that were up there and just have everyone be able to walk into one side -Yeah, it might just be that everybody gets out and looks at it and thats all we need. But good. People might want to actually try and inspect what theyre going to do. Well do what we can to make it accessible. With your permission, of course. Well, were coming up just about on 11:30 here with a half hour to go. We certainly can end early if we need to. If anyone has any other questions, any other items they want to bring up that are outside the agenda we hit on today? I had a question. Are there any other environmental restrictions we need to know about far as the construction and the falcons? The only other restriction would be staging, or puttingI could hear part of it, but some of it disappeared outis any of the containment that would go underneath the bridge, underneath the deck because there is nesting peregrine falcons down there. There shouldnt be any work underneath the bridge because all the work stops at the top of the rail. Yeah. We werent sure where, if any of the construction, I mean the people who were actually going to be constructing it would have a reason to put any kind of containment or anything underneath the bridge deck. Yeah. We had that we wondered if there was a possibility of anybody wanting to stage stuff underneath the deck. Thats possible. Yeah. Where are these falcons at? Wherever they want to be. Where are they at, Corissa, right now? I dont know exact nest spots. Theyre not nesting this year. Theyve nested there for several years. Theyre highly political birds. Their on a lot of the news channels and they have several different agencies that come up and actually watch them throughout the year. But theres, I think, three no-nesting spots, but during certain times of the year, they have their nest down there and they become quite agitated and are known to dive bomb people. What time of year is their nesting period? Let me look it up real quick. I dont have it offhand. I do believe its -Page 21 of 27
Unknown Unknown [1:20:19] Bill Unknown Bill Unknown [1:21:00] Corissa
Unknown Corissa Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown [1:21:54] Jamie Corissa
Unknown Corissa
Bill Corissa Unknown [1:23:23] Unknown Bill Unknown [1:23:45] Ivan Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown [1:24:21] Unknown Unknown Bill Corissa Ivan Unknown Unknown Unknown Lonnie Unknown Unknown Corissa Unknown Unknown [1:25:31] Unknown Ivan Unknown Unknown Unknown Ivan Unknown
Our bio submitted a good email about that so we can -Yeah. Let me pull it up. Because its off the normal nesting period, so. (off-mike conversations) While were waiting, Bill, if we do stage under the deck, is there any problems with the Coast Guard? Isnt there a 10-ft requirement if you go below 10 ft you have to notify navigation? That Im not sure. Id have to find out if we were going to go lower than 10 ft below the bottom of the deck. Thats what we were working with in Newport, as long as were not 10 ft below the bridge, then its fine. Thats what we were envisioning is somebody might decide to build a platform up there underneath the deck and stage equipment. Right, well, well definitely have to run through that when we do the project for the bottom part, below the deck work. I dont know how practical that would be because if I was going to put a temporary platform, I would put it on the top of the cord knot under the deck. Yeah, exactly. They have to know this for the falcon reason. Whether somebody does it or not, if we had to make the call on whether to prohibit it or not, I think we decided not to prohibit it, so. I dont know. The latest specs, I think, prohibit it. Oh, okay. So that was -Yeah, we do. Yeah, underneath right now is prohibited. Thats where we ended up, okay. Corissa, let me ask you go ahead. Id say possibly, it could be useful, it would only be a small platform, but you could put it anywhere out there. It wouldnt have to be right on top of your work or right on top of a pier or anything. Like a quick tick platform? A work platform to put a small compressor there. (overlapping conversations) I dont think it would need to hang more than 10 feet below the bottom cord. Well, what shes saying is theres permit issues and the falcon issues putting stuff under there, so unless theres a big advantage, were just going to tell you no. Right. Theres some advantage. I mean, theres always an advantage to having equipment out there versus having to pack it all out there and have it in a truck. Well, theres, obviously theres room. I mean, there could be, maybe -I know theres room up there, but you got to paint that area, you got to put containment in that area. I mean, youd have to paint an area, then youd have to stage after youre done painting. No, because the bottom cords not getting painted. Its still going to be the base of your containment on the side. Ivan just brought up a point that the containment will go down to the top of the bottom cord. Right. So is that considered below the deck? Im just talking about for language in the environmental documents that they have to prepare. Did you hear that, Corissa?
Page 22 of 27
Corissa Janice Ivan
Corissa Bill Corissa
Jamie Corissa
Jamie Unknown Corissa Jamie Unknown Unknown Unknown Jamie Corissa
Bill Unknown [1:29:33] Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown
No, no, all I can hear is paper shuffling. Thats because its by Ivan. Hang on here. What I was saying was the containment will be resting on the top of the bottom cord and what I was wondering was is it, for your paperwork or whatnot, does that need to be defined because thats technically probably below the deck, but its not like were encasing the steel underneath there. Its just the containment is going to be resting on there. I think it could be done and it would be something that the spec writers would have to look at, is basically not being a visual, in vision of, you know, visual, I dont even know how to put it, so the birds cant see it from where the nests are. Yeah, Steve Gisler, a biologist, sent an email that really addressed this and I dont have it with me, but its been worked out as far as that limit on where its -Yeah, so the limits pretty good. And he says it pretty well on the part of it. I mean, the difference is too, is always, heres the quick thing is if we dont have any nesting peregrines underneath there, theres no issue. So I mean, heres the horrible thought of it is, but this may actually be beneficial is that all the work, peregrines decide not to nest there. But if they decide not to nest there, there is no issue. So, but if one of the things that, you know, once we get into it and the peregrines arent there, then it opens up a door. So its all on luck or on can we put a closed sign where they nest? Yeah, no, we cant do that. But the other thing is that the birds do dive bomb. So, and theyre one of the fastest dive bombing birds in the world. So theyre one of the things are when they do get disturbed, they do feel threatened, they do become very agitated. And I know that bridge maintenance crews had to deal with that in the past, so. So theyre alpha birds. Dont peregrine falcons usually nest in the top of the bridge? No, they nest underneath. Yeah, isnt that wild? They normally are up in the top. I think its too much wind above the deck. They dont like it here, probably. But if they didnt nest there this year So, its the first year in a long time that we havent had a nesting bird. And theyve been there for, like, seven years. And what they do, so people understand, is theres lots of groups that come out here, probably like seven or eight that come out and actually take note of the nesting peregrines every year. I know, I think its Channel 2 News who even have the one in Portland on the 405 bridge, they come out and theyll talk about these birds, too. So theyre politically known birds. But yeah, if theyre not nesting there, theres not an issue. So, I mean, that would change it all, but we would not do anything to, I mean, I dont know, that may be something to talk about if they want to do preventing. I just dont know if thats politically possible on this one. But the thing is we just avoid going underneath the bridge as in Steves email, it will be okay. So any other conversations or items that people want to bring up? Is the traffic control allowed in the specs that I dont have? Yeah, right now, I think that this limits it if I remember -Weekdays, Im assuming. Weekdays only? Except for holidays. Yeah. Its not weekends. Heres what I would I dont know, I think the specs are going to be modified a little bit. Ill just say that because our current spec out there
Page 23 of 27
Unknown Unknown Unknown [1:30:24] Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown [1:30:50] Corissa Jamie Corissa Unknown Jamie Corissa
allows them to work anytime, any day at our discretion. So basically, if the traffic gets bad, well tell them to pack it up, which weve only had to do a couple days, but theyve been able to work on the weekends too. What about holidays? No. Holiday weekends weve limited it. Friday at three oclock? Yeah. Yeah, or noon. Or the day preceding a holiday? And were probably going to include the 5th of July in there? Yeah, lessons learned. Well make July 5th a holiday. That was the worst day ever. Thats the one worst day, the day after the 4th of July. (overlapping conversations) Which next year it will be on Monday. Yeah, so it will be that Tuesday afternoon. Nobody goes home until the day after. Weve learned that. Troy, you just have to work 24 hours straight. I do have the email. Does anybody want it or do you want me to read it? How lengthy is it, Corissa? Its two paragraphs. Oh, you could read it. Go for it. Okay. Ill start from reading it word for word. Hi, everyone. It looks like were in pretty good shape regarding the lack of bird conflict on the upcoming Megler Bridge painting. As a point, I want to touch base with you and discuss the best course of action for bird-related 290s. The consequences so far seem to be that there are only expected to occur in the floor beams, bracing and/or other steelwork under the deck. As far as I can determine, nobody has observed nesting above the deck where the work will occur. Quentin says the containment will only attach to the lower cord but not wrap under the deck where the birds are likely to be. AFIS has agreed AFIS is basically the federal bird place that helps us deal with birds has agreed to be on call in the unanticipated event a nest is encountered above the deck. Given these facts, it seems to be that if we can identify a no-work zone under the deck or otherwise enforce a lack of containment and/or the other work under the deck, then the standard specs should cover us and we wont need any specials for birds. The standard specs still require basic compliance with the law and stopping work, contacting the engineer if work might disturb an active nest. The break in work would provide the opportunity to coordinate with AFIS if needed. However, although the under-deck no-work zone approach might be the most straightforward for minimizing bird risk, maybe there are contractual down sides to the approach that Im not aware of. So, and that was the whole thing. Basically, if theres a wrap underneath the deck, we should be fine, but of course if we start causing issues with the nesting birds, thats still an issue. Okay, well, well definitely have notes from todays meeting that will be posted on that same website on the ODOT construction site where you got information about this meeting, or I could even, I have your email addresses. I could send it all to you too so you could refer to them. I had a question on the warranty. You have a three-year warranty specified in this.
Page 24 of 27
Bill
Unknown
[1:33:15] Unknown Unknown Unknown
Unknown Unknown Unknown [1:34:55] Unknown Unknown Unknown
Whats the protocol for that? Are you inspecting it? Are we inspected or is it just if you see something, is access supposed to be provided to somebody? Its an annual warranty. We provide the access. We invite the contractor, so its a mutual -Its a walk-through annually? Yeah, and as far as access, it kind of depends. Usually, for sure, it would be just a walk-through and maybe climb up a ladder. If we suspect something or see something the second year we might go a little more. And then the third year is kind of the final one and the punch list and it usually gets taken care of; we agree what youre going to take care of. And the warranty reads pretty much anything thats a defect. The exception to that would be, you know, crevices where theres pack rust or steel-to-concrete connect surfaces where you could see them perfectly. But any flat steel surface that has corrosion is considered a defect. And normally if theres, you know, a tiny bit, we wouldnt do anything. If its significant, then we agree what the repairs are going to be. And the repairs are based on the 594 painting spec which tells you how to do repairs, which is basically go back to step one and do it over. So three years were -So its three years, another thing I might add is -Three years from the second notification. Yeah, three years from the second notification. It might be six years after youve done your first painting on this job. Yeah, the language actually says that if we see significant defects that would be significant after the first inspection, we could require you to repair those, you know, basically every year. But generally its accumulated until the end unless it was something serious. Mike, instead of putting five full coats on this job At a year? It doesnt take that much longer to put a full coat than a strike coat. Id say contractor protection. For your protection, plus a chance to have problems. What have you seen in the past for problems? Well, one of the things Ive seen is spray up high on the top coat without striking or pre-striking it. Dont get the millet. If the contractor follows that specification, basically, ever inch on that bridge gets five coats of paint with a brush. Where you see a lot of initial problems on warranty are out in the flat area of your steel, and I thought we somewhat came to the conclusion that a lot of that might be light.. I guess we could consider youre probably only going to add a couple percentages to the cost of the paint job, bid price, a couple percent? Yeah, it would be very small in my opinion. And that wouldnt hurt you, time wise. Not really. Thats my opinion. Two coats of primer? Two coats intermediate. One coat top coat. We use two coats of primer anyway. Its just easier and does a better job. As long as the containments up, give yourself two, three extra days and youll have your two extra spray coats on them. Five days for you, Lonnie. Where are you seeing a lot of corrosion up there? I mean, in the flat areas? In those flat areas, the connections, the big box core over in where the tower rises above the deck, those big laterals. Theres areas, and not necessarily where the
Page 25 of 27
Unknown Unknown Unknown [1:35:42] Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown [1:37:03] Unknown Unknown Unknown Lonnie Unknown Unknown Unknown [1:38:00]
Unknown [1:39:09] Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown [1:39:32] Unknown
water was stacked up, theres areas where its just corroded all the way across. It had to do with the paint job originally. Its scattered out. We considered a spot painting job, but when we started looking at it, it just didnt add up. The corrosion, you know, its not what Id consider terrible. There are some areas that are worse, but well get you access to it. Obviously, you know, the connections at the top are really the only big connections to do, the bottom ones are not part of the work. The bottom connections, now that I think about it, are going to get full of sand and lead ex or blast ox and thats another good reason to go ahead and do them. Youre going to have to have some kind of a floor above the top cord, plug it off, stop the -You can keep it out of the cord, but you cant keep it out of the point. And vacuum it out when youre done. What if its going to get wet. Theres sand and the lowest points always get wet. I mean, if might not in July and August and September, but Im just saying thats going to end up being a contractors problem area is where the -Well, one of the things we were thinking when we cut it off there is, if you go down to the top of the parapet, youre going to take off all the lead. So if you get off all the lead, the next job is urethane coating so we dont have to deal with lead. Were going to paint the lower part of it within, you know, four, whenever we finish this one, so if you get some minor damage, its not going to be as big a deal. Its not going to be -Yeah, I mean, were going to expect you to suck the lead waste out of there, but -What it does, it gets hard and then it adheres like concrete, lightly adhering concrete, if it gets wet and stays in there for a while. But were going to be working a lot off that bottom box cord and were going to be building scaffolding on it and hitting it with a hammer. Were going to damage that coating job. Are we expected to repair that or just walk away? Leave it like you found it. The spec says if you damage it, you repair it. Yeah, I guess I would expect you to put it back as like condition. And on the other side of that, Id say that Im not going to be real picky about that with the idea that were going to paint it, so maybe just slap some myozinc on it, I dont know. Okay. Well, I want to thank everyone for participating. I know it was voluntary but hopefully those who are here and witnessed it can learn a little bit more and help with their decision to bid and to submit a good bid. So, those who, again, are interested in bidding, December 14th is a date you want to have in your calendar to come up and editorially come and take a look.
Unknown Unknown [1:40:25] Lonnie Unknown Ivan Unknown [1:41:00] Bill
Meeting ended at 11:46 am Respectfully submitted,
Page 26 of 27
By Paula Pinyerd, ABC Transcription Services, Inc. Janice See, Assistant to Larry McKinley, NW Area Manager, ODOT
Page 27 of 27

Transcripcion de Una Entrevista A Contructores y Diseñadores de Puentes

Uploaded by

Document Information

Original Title

Copyright

Available Formats

Share this document

Share or Embed Document

Sharing Options

Did you find this document useful?

Is this content inappropriate?

Copyright:

Available Formats

Transcripcion de Una Entrevista A Contructores y Diseñadores de Puentes

Uploaded by

Copyright:

Available Formats

Constructability Review US101: Columbia River [Astoria-Megler] Bridge September 19, 2011 10:00 Noon (PDT) Attendees: Eric

Troy Janice Eric

Ivan Corissa Ivan

Quentin Ivan Unknown Ivan

Ivan Quentin Lonnie Quentin

Lonnie Quentin Lonnie Quentin

Ivan Lonnie Unknown [0:19:05] Lonnie [0:19:14] Unknown [0:19:22]

Unknown [0:19:50] Unknown Unknown [0:20:02] Unknown Unknown [0:20:05] Paul

Lonnie [0:20:29] Unknown [0:20:44] Unknown

[0:21:53] Unknown [0:22:19] Lonnie [0:22:20] Unknown [0:22:21]

[0:25:14] Ray Unknown [0:25:38]

Lonnie [0:27:53] Paul

Unknown [0:28:58] Unknown [0:29:14] Steve

Ray -phone [0:38:00] Lonnie [0:38:15] Ray -phone

[0:42:10] Unknown [0:42:15]

Grover [0:44:31] Unknown [0:44:42]

Unknown [0:45:10] Lonnie [0:45:20] Unknown [0:45:25] Grover Unknown [0:45:45]

Unknown [0:46:20] Unknown [0:46:48]

Unknown Unknown Bill Unknown [0:51:17] Unknown Unknown Unknown

Unknown [0:53:27] Unknown [0:52:48]

Unknown [0:54:36] Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown

Unknown Unknown Unknown [0:56:35]

Unknown [0:57:27] Unknown Unknown [0:57:46] Unknown Lonnie [0:58:00]

Unknown [0:58:35] Unknown Unknown [0:58:55] Unknown Unknown Unknown

Bill Paul [1:00:00]

Corissa Bill Corissa Bill Janice Corissa Bill Janice Bill

Unknown [1:02:41] Bill

Unknown Bill Unknown [1:03:16] Unknown Bill

Unknown [1:04:00] Bill

Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown [1:04:45] Unknown Unknown

Unknown Unknown [1:05:30] Unknown Unknown Bill

Lonnie Unknown Lonnie Unknown [1:08:25]

Ivan Bill Unknown Unknown Lonnie

Unknown Unknown Unknown Lonnie Unknown Unknown Unknown Bill

Unknown Bill Lonnie Unknown Bill

Unknown Bill Bill Janice Bill Unknown [1:13:48]

Bill Unknown [1:14:41] Unknown

Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown Lonnie

Unknown Unknown [1:20:19] Bill Unknown Bill Unknown [1:21:00] Corissa

Unknown Corissa Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown [1:21:54] Jamie Corissa

Corissa Janice Ivan

Corissa Bill Corissa

Jamie Unknown Corissa Jamie Unknown Unknown Unknown Jamie Corissa

Bill Unknown [1:29:33] Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown

[1:33:15] Unknown Unknown Unknown

Unknown Unknown Unknown [1:34:55] Unknown Unknown Unknown

Unknown [1:39:09] Unknown Unknown Unknown Unknown [1:39:32] Unknown

Unknown Unknown [1:40:25] Lonnie Unknown Ivan Unknown [1:41:00] Bill

Meeting ended at 11:46 am Respectfully submitted,

You might also like