MACK

W.

FORD

7/22/97 ___ 62

Q. or water A. a place Q. own lights? A. Q. all had? A. Q.

I ,

So did or food

you

provide

them

anything

like

lights

r:
./

2; 31
4

or transportation? remember other than just giving them

I don't to stay. So they

5 61 7
8

were

responsible

for

their

own

food,

Yes. Did they eat in the same kitchen that you

9; 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17! 18 19 20 21
I

Separately. Separately. Did they prepare their food

separately? A. Q.
A.

They That Yes,

(A

had

special

menus. they are vegetarians?

is because sir. brief

recess

was

held)

BY MR.

BERNSTEIN: Before
I get

Q.
you

too

far

afield,

I want

to show ask you

something

I have

labeled

as Exhibit

5 and

if you

recognize

that. reviews the that? document)

(The witness Q. A. Q. A. Do you

221 23

recognize

No, sir.
Have you ever recall. seen that before?

24L
25

I don't

--8AIN & SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS SHREVEPORT. LoUISIANA

(318) 4292160

MACK W. FORD .. _------1

7/22/97
___ 61

A. them.

No, sir, I have no idea. I didn't whatever ask them.

I didn't

question

I was willing

to help

3 4! 5 6J
7

house, Q. A.
Q.

we could do to help. you from Missouri?

SO they contacted

Yes, sir. And what did they ask? They asked could they use that facility for

A.

8
91

a short w~ile. Q. A. said. Q. A. Q. A. now. Q. And how long did they stay in Arcadia? A very short time. And where Stayed did they stay in Arcadia? dorm now, that we have And so they came down to Arcadia? They were on their way back to Texas, they

10, 11 12 13 14 15
16

in the girls'

18 19 20
21 221 i

that at that point New Bethany Rebecca A.

Q.

the girls

were

-- your girls, and the

the

girls were

in the old dorm,

Home

for Girls used part of the new dorm?

Right. And what was your arrangement Home for Girls? No arrangement. We just simply them if we could. said we with the

23
24

Rebecca A. would

25

try to accommodate

RAIN

&

SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS

SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD . - ....- . _._._-_ .. _--1i

2i

7/22/97
63

Q.

You don't recall

NO,

seeing

that before?

A.
Q.

sir. Does that mean and you don't seen it is possible recall? that

Okay. before

4
51 6 7 8

you saw it A.
Q.

I have never Okay.

it before.

You are sure of that?

A.
Q.

Yes, sir. Okay. If that was supposed Home could to have been a

9:
I

form used at the New Bethany Walterboro, approved A. Q. Exhibit A. Q. A. Q. A.

Q.

for Boys in someone else have

10j 11
12
/

South Carolina,

that form such as Olin King? Probably Would so. true about the

~.

13

that also have been on physical

14
15 16

1, the policy Probably so.

restraint?

And Exhibit

2, the general that.

rules?

17
18 19 20

I am not sure about Okay. I don't remember

seeing

them. 3 is the

And you had told me that Exhibit application that you all used?

intake A.
23
/.~

Used to be. Used to be. And do you know who first made

Q. this up? A.

24 25

Probably
._.

me with my help of the secretary,

... __ .__.
SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

IL__.
BAiN

. __
&

SIMPSON COURT REPoR"reRS

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD -- 7/22/97

--=------ _. -1 --.-- --- -----.-64

but

don't

recall.

just remember

later on it was a

2
3: 4

new application. (Exhibit No. 5 was marked)

Q.
I

am going

to show you another

6.

document

have
,

labeled

as Exhibit

At the top it says Have you ever seen that

6i
7
8 9 10: 11

"behavior i before?

incident

report".

(The witness A. never

reviews

the document) this to me, but

I

Our attorneys

mentioned

did see a copy of it.

Q. A.

Okay.
I

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19

never did see a copy of that.

Q.

Can you give me a time frame when you heard talking about that?

your attorneys
A.

Probably

on the latter part of that ministry

in south Carolina.
Q.

Okay.

Do you think that document, to use at the

Exhibit

6, was a form created

New Bethany A.

Home

for Boys
I

in South Carolina? the lawyers to do,

The best

can remember,

21

mentioned

that probably

that is what we needed

22 i
23
24

is keep a record. Q. A.
Q.

Okay. I don't Because think it was ever used. the home was closed?

25 I

1----------------------------------------------------BAlN

&

SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS

SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160 ---'

MACK W. FORD

7/22/97
65

1---"--11 A.
2,

Right. (Exhibit No.6 was marked) 7 and ask you, or heard

Q.
I

I will hand you Exhibit

4:

likewise, of it.

if you have ever seen that before

51

61
7:
8 9 10

(The witness A. Q.

reviews

the document) this one. likewise,

a

I don't remember

Could that have been,

form that Home in

was recommended South Carolina?

or used in the New Bethany

11 12 r< 13l 14 15 16 17 18
19

MR. HODGE: form of the question. speculate.

am going

to object

to the to have

It requires

the witness he doesn't Subject

He has already

testified

any recollection objection,

of that document. away

to the

you may speculate

if you wish.

BY MR. BERNSTEIN: Q. used Was that a form that Mr. King could have

in South Carolina? A. Q. I remember Okay. the lawyers talking about it. form

20 211 22 23

In other words,

that is another

that you think was suggested Carolina? A. I didn't Okay. I think the lawyers
..

that you all use in South

use it.

recommended
..

it .

_--

_._._

..

---

---

--------(318) 429-2160
_---

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SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS

SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

- .__

MACK W. FORD -- 7/22/97 --- -,-------1

66

(Exhibit No.7
Q.

was marked) back, were you trying before to open at

2 3:

Okay.

Going

the South Carolina Long Street A.

Q.
I

facility

your ministry

4
5 6 7 8 9

closed? can't remember.

I

The reason articles

am asking

is that some of the

I

newspaper

about

that time,

think one of at the

them mentions time that, Rapier A. -I

that you were keep having

in South Carolina

trouble

with his name,

Rapier. -- that Mr. Rapier was in court; and that is

12,
131

Q. why
I

was wondering Carolina

if you were trying

to open the

14 15 16 17 18 19 20
1

South

facility

while you still had the

ministry A. to raise
Q.

at Long Street? Could have been funds.

I

was on debitation South

trying Carolina.

We have been allover

Your wife yesterday with

told me what her Home ministry was.

involvement

the New Bethany

And as I appreciate of New Bethany A.

Q.

it, first off, you were the pastor Church?

21

Baptist

22
23
24

Yes, sir. Okay. And was her description of New Bethany of the Church

current correct?

congregation

Baptist

25

---------BAIN

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SIMPSON COURT REPoR'rnRS

SHREVEPORT, LoUISiANA

MACK W. FORD

-- 7'/22/97
67

A. Q.

Yes, sir. It has about a dozen members, of New Bethany Church and that and Home? is

3
4'

the staff members A.

Q.

Right now. Okay. What

is the

largest

-- how large has Church been,

6i
7 8 9

the congregation

at New Bethany

Baptist

and by that I want A.

Q.

to say how many adults? 60. at

Probably Okay.

And those would be staff members Home?

10;
11 12 13 14

the New Bethany A.

Q.

Most of them would. Most of them? Yes, sir. And perhaps spouses or people from the

A. Q. community? A. I
I

15
16 17 181 19 20 21 22

We have had some from the community with the Sheriff. incident with the Sheriff

up until

the incident Q. that? A. Q. A.

Q.

And which

was

You don't want

to hear all that, do you? one.

Just tell me which It is Ardis

Whitman. where
you

23
24

And that was the incident for criminal Right. damage

were

arrested A.

to property?

25

._-_
RAIN & SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS

..__ ._---(318) 4292160

SHREVEPORT. LoUISIANA

MACK

W.

FORD

-- 7/22/97

--_.
I,

-- ._._._--- --

-.- --you had

_---an

68

Q. encounter

And

then

the

Sheriff

and

2
3: 4!

in his Wasn't And He you had

office? any encounter; him over yes, is the

I

A.
Q.

he

had

a gun.

sued the

that? sued him. you are

i
5 6,

A.

gun; that

Q.
talking A.

Yes. about? Yes, That Late Late Yes. And

And

encounter

7:
8 9
I

sir. happened '70s. '70s? back in the late 'BOs?

Q.
A.
1

10
11:
I

Q. A.

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 since part

Q.

since church? the

then

the

community

has

not

been

of your A. All

sentiment into that bad

from the time guys.

the

Sheriff's and of we

Department have issue, Q. the

has

ridden from become

community, because

-- suddenly we have

a political

SO would late '70s

it be a fair the

statement

to say

that

congregation of the adult or New in the

of New staff

Bethany members Home of for

Baptist the 23
24

Church Bethany the

consists Home for

New and A.

Girls are

Bethany homes?

Boys

children sir.

that

Yes,

2SI
BAlN

Q_.
& SIMPSON

__ A n_d __W __ h_a_t __r_o __ 1_e. __d_0 y_O_ll __p __ 1_a_y __W __ i_t_h __r __ e_g_a_r_d t_o
COURT REPoRTERS SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD -- 7/22/97

...

_-

..

_--_.

-----

69

Home

for Boys or New Bethany

31
4 5
I

A.

I am their pastor. flunky;

I do the counseling. driver;

am the general the commode

I am the bulldozer

I am

cleaner;

I am the electrician;

I am the

6: 7
8 9 101
I
I

air conditioning seed planter;

Q.

serviceman;

I am the land clearer;

hay cutter. cook and bottle washer?

Chief
10-4.

A. Q.

Do you perform

so, you do the counseling. on both the boys' side and

111

Do you do the counseling the girls' A. girls. girls, through side?

12
13

The women do most of the counseling My wife does most of the counseling and seldom our church ever am I called services in other

with the the

14

with than

151
16 17
18

at the alter

to do any

counseling. Q. A. Q. Has it always Yes, sir. So your wife has always with the girls, been the one to do been that way?

21 22

the counseling counseling

A.

and you do the

with the boys? The staff -- some of the staff is qualified

24 25

to counsel.
i

Q.

How do you qualify

to do the counseling?

_._ .._J
BAIN

&

SIMPSON COlJRT REPORTERS

SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

(31 R) 429~2160

--.-------

MACK W. FORD -- 7/22/97

r ---- ..
...

_----

-----that

------

70

11

I I

A.

With a burden, knows

with somebody

2; 3

legitimately

the Bible,

knows how to counsel

with the Word.

i,
4! 5

Q.

Before

I forget,

want to go back and ask about South Carolina. You

you a couple

more questions

6 7
8

said that you did not know whether authorities in South Carolina

or not the

had to force their way Did

into the New Bethany you ever hear whether entry

Home for Boys in Walterboro. or not they had been denied an investigation of

9 10 11
121 13

into the home to conduct

child abuse? A. Q. Not that I know of. Okay. With regard to government employees,

14 lS 16 17 18
19
201

such as child protection et cetera, Walterboro, they could A. Q.

workers,

sanitarians, for Boys in on whether

did the New Bethany South Carolina,

Home

have a policy

come onto the premises? No policy that I know of. have been health, free to come onto if the health South they unit

So they would

the premises

if the public

21

had come out to the home in Walterboro, Carolina, would and said, we need to check in?

22 23
24 2S

the kitchen,

have been allowed A. I don't

know of any time that they have done:

that.

_J
SIMPSON COURT REPORlCRS SHREVEPORT, LoUISlANA

BAiN

&

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD

7/22/97

---_
Q. A. 3i 4
5

71

How about the child protection

I

workers?

don't

know about that. So you don't know whether workers in South Carolina at the New Bethany or not the were ever Home for

Q.

Okay.

child protection denied access

to a child

6i
7 8 , 91

Boys in South Carolina?

A.
I

don't know that they ever came prior

to

that time.
Q.

Who would Olin King.

know that?

10i
11 12 f\ 13 14 15 16 17
I
I

A.
Q.

And how often

did you and Mr. King, Mr. Olin of the New Bethany Home

King, discuss

the management

for Boys in Walterboro, A. things

Q.

South Carolina? it by phone quite often. Some

We discussed

were done that wasn't Do you think

brought

to my attention. workers

if the child protection Home for Boys in

had come to the New Bethany

I

lSi

Walterboro,

South Carolina, of child abuse

and said, we have received or neglect and we need to

19
20

an allegation

talk to the child, that you would you about?

that that would have been something Olin King to have told

21
22

have expected

23
I

MR. HODGE:

object

to the form of the on the witness'

24;
I

25

L_
I
BAIN

question.

It requires

speculation

_YOU

_m_a_Y_ ans_w_e_r_t he_ :u __ e_s_t_l._' o_n_.

SHREVEPORT. LoUISIANA '.
_i~_.

&

SIMPSON COURT REPoRTI:RS

-..

(318) 429-2160
.-

_-

.-.

..--_:::_

MACK W. FORD
..

7/22/97 . ------------

_-------

72

1
....
_

BY MR. BERNSTEIN: Q. would Would that have been an incident that you

..-

2 3
4:

have expected
A.

Mr. King to have told you about?

Yes.
Did

5:
6 7

Q. protection Home

he ever report

to you that child

agency workers

had come to the New Bethany south Carolina, to

for Boys in Walterboro, allegations No.

81
9:

investigate
A. Q.

of child abuse or neglect?

10 11 12
13

You were over Mr. King as pastor and as he was running you? the ministry;

of the you were

church,

over him, weren't

A.

True. How would you describe your relationship pastor-church

14 15 16 17 18
I
I

Q. with him? memberi A. Q. A. Q.

A.

Were you employer-employeei what? him a member

boss-employee; I considered Okay.

of the church.

19; 20

A man of character. Would you tell him, I want you to do this?

21 22

He would do it if I told him to do it. And did you on occasions tell him to do

Q. I I things?
A. Q.

23

r>.

24 25

Yes. Could he have told you what to do?

RAIN

&

SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS

SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD

-- 7/22/97
---._---.

__ .__

73 --_.I

A. Q. policy

No. With regard with regard agency, to -- we were talking about the

2 3:
4

to agencies the health

such as the child unit, fire marshal. or with Is

protection there
!

5
61

a policy

at the New Bethany

Church

New Bethany regard

Home for Boys or Girls those employees

in Arcadia

7' 81
9

to whether

can come on the

premises? A. faith. Q. And who makes they are coming The church. And how is that determination We discuss, made? happen if the determination in good faith? as to They came as long as they was coming in good

10

12
13 14 15

whether A. Q. A.

you know, what would

16 .

the department probable Q. whether cause,

came with allegations. proper entrance would

If they had be admitted. determining

17
18

And how would you go about they had probable cause?

19
I

20 21

A. Q. A. Q. A. legal.

We would read the suit or the papers. And how We have never Go ahead. We have never believed an ex parte order was -- excuse me.

22
23 f\ 24 25

- .._-------'

RAIN & SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS

SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD _- 7/22/97

,._---1
._

._ ... _--

....

_. .---

- - ... --order,

74 _ .._--,

Q.

So if they came with an ex parte them in?

you

21
3 4

would

not allow
A. Q.

I feel like it is wrong. On occasions, though, you have allowed them

51
6

in to have access A.

to children? came, the health unit has come; up the in name

Fire marshal

7 8 9i
10
11

they all came until same mad sentiment Arcadia, in vain, when it Q. Louisiana; ordering

the fire marshal as the Sheriff's

picked

Department

come out cussing,

using God's

me around

like a dog, and that is

all stopped. And when did that happen? That happened in the '80s. -- do you remember office? the names of probably in the '80s,

A. 14 15

somewhere Q. anybody

Was there

from the fire marshal's I don't remember

17 18
191
I

A.
Q-

the names.

Your lawsuit

says that there was a fire to the ef f ect that, says is that, quote, made quote, school a "would was

marshal quote,

that made a statement that what your lawsuit

20

21
221

"One of the fire marshal's statement to the effect

representatives

that the State", home and church quote.

23
24

not rest until shut down",

the church closed

period,

Was that statement

25
L.._

made in your presence?

__ .. _

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&

SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS

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(318) 429-2160

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_--_.

__ ..

MACK W. FORD

7/22/97 75

1 2 3; 4

A. Q. A.
Q.

Made to my attorney

in front of the judge.

And who was your attorney? Jim Caldwell, Judge Caldwell's when son. was

And were you present

the statement

5
6' 7

made? A. Q. attorney? A. Q.
I

No, sir. Okay. But that statement was made to your

8 9

Yes, sir. Okay. Do you know who made that statement

10 111 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
I

to your attorney? A. Q. A. Q.
I

can see him. him? crippled guy.

I

Can you describe

A

little,

short,

Okay.

And do you know if he was an attorney of the State Fire Marshal's office?

or an employee A. Marshal's believe.

I
I

He was an employee office;

of the State Fire

I

one time in law enforcement,

20

Q.

He had been Yes, sir.

in law enforcement

at one time?

21

A. Q.

And do you know where

he officed,

where

he

23 24

had an office? A.
Q.

In Shreveport. He had an office

._-------SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

in Shreveport.

Okay.

And

_-_ .._-

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& SIMPSON COURT REPoRnRS

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD -- 7/22/97

---'-

76

11

that statement

-- how did you

-- so it was repeated to your lawyer? our

to

2
3

you that he had made the statement A. lawyer Q. A.

;

The judge called

him down

for calling

4!
5
6

and told him he couldn't

say that.

And what judge was that? Judge Butler. Okay. Do you know offices if that statement was

7'

Q. made

8
9

in the judge's A.
Q.

or in the courtroom?

Judge's

chambers. chambers?

In the judge's Yes, sir. And that would lawsuit

A. 12
13

Q. to your

have been

in the -- according
it

that was -- well,

is shortly

after

14 15
16
I

a lawsuit right

was filed in 1982; does

it that seem about

to you? A. Q. Yes, sir. Okay. denied So since admittance that point you have to people from the State?

17

18 19 20 21
22l

routinely A. retaliation

Mr. Bernstein,

we thought

all of it was in and the way

to our lawsuits it. is the basis

in the past,

they handled Q.

What

for believing

it was

23
24

retaliation? A. Because the way they acted.

251L
8A1N

Q_.
&

A __ n_d __ h_o_W d_i_d __ t_h_e __ y__ a_c_t __ ?

SHREVEPORT. LoUISIANA

_
(318) 429-2160

SIMPSON COURT REPoRlCRS

MACK

W.

FORD

7/22/97

------1
r" -'-

. -_------

---in 30 minutes of each other.

-------

77

I
I I

A.
Q.
I

Both Okay. And

came

2 3: 4 5

A. Q. A. won same be that

-else? the children then time at off of the -- we me in the and It is

Anything And case

ordered in

6
71 8

1988, and frame, High same

they

ordered

time,

same Arcadia

to be the

in a court time.

at the

School

same

9 10 11 12
131

impossible. Q. A. Q. that you You Yes, Okay. won the say you won the case in 1988?

sir. And case they what is your basis for believing

in 1988?
said they weren't and allowed remove the to

14

A.
take the

Because

IS
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

psychological at their you own

evaluations discretion. the court

children Q. that? A. Q. the State

Have

seen

opinion

that

said

I was Okay.

told Any

by

our

attorneys. reason for you believing for your that

other

is retaliating

against

lawsuits? A. for It has been a series of waves of harassment

22 years. Q. And when you say "waves of harassment for 22

,

_J
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SIMPSON COURT REi'oR'reRS

SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

_----------

MACK W. FORD -- 7/22/97 78 what are you referring to? the

2:
3

A. parents' turning wishes

Taking

children

out of the home without the power and going

permisison

and against

of attorney, against the

41
5i

them back to the streets of the parents, our church. going

against

the wishes

of the

ministry, years,
Q.
I

They have literally, it.

over the

literally Okay.

destroyed

81
9 10

How is that harassment?

A.
Q.

How is that harassment? Yes. Because the children were given to our their

11 12'
f\

A.

13!

care.

That was our responsibility.

It wasn't

responsibility. children

It was our responsibility.

All the is the Church and

14 15 16 17
18

that come in by power of attorney of the New Bethany preacher. Baptist

responsibility the Reverend responsibility Q. Okay.

We feel like it is our only to the parents. not recognize the regard
i

to give an account And so you would

19
I
1

legal mandate

and authority

of the State with

201

to child welfare? A. court. Because of ex parte orders and my access of it. to

21 22 23
24
2S

I have never been to court because denied me a right

They have always to defend myself.

into that courtroom

I have always

had to sit outside and tried

and listen.

They have coached

the children

BAiN

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SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS

-

SHREVEPORT. LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

---_._---

.. -----

..

_._.

MACK W. FORD -- 7/22/97 ---- -

-------------------about the home,

---'--'

79

to get them to say bad things are dealing habitual with absolutely,

and we

I am talking

about and

liars, habitual

gangsters

and prostitutes

streetwalkers; manipulate,
67

street-wise,

they know how to by account after account

and I can prove

of what has happened. Q. And can you help me understand is required how, if a an to

81 9
10: 11 12 13 14

State employee allegation fulfill A. and asking

by law to investigate that when they attempt

of child abuse,

that legal duty that is harassment? They could give us the courtesy me for an appointment. of calling sit down

We could

and talk about

the thing with the parent MR. BERNSTEIN:

present. You be a

It is 10 till.

IS
16 17 18 19

said 10 till, and it is 10 till, so this would good break. (Lunch recess) BY MR. BERNSTEIN: Q. continue
i

Reverend

Ford,

I think what

I want

to do is out of the some

20
21' 22 ,

-- I had asked you about and I want

something

lawsuit, more,

to ask you about the lawsuit

and I see you have a copy of it in front of you. follow along with me, the paragraph of page 2 and top of page 3,

23'
24

So, if you will that starts

at the bottom

25~h~s_:umber

5. says. beginning on the_bottom of

t

J
RAIN

&

SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS

SHREVEPORT.LoUISIANA

(31B) 429-2160

--------- -

-------- ----

MACK W. FORD -- 7/22/97 ._-._----

..

.-

- --

.....

_._- .. - -_.

._.

--,
80
I
I

page 2, "The church home ministry help for boys and girls, primarily

attempts

to provide who no it

teenagers,

one else seems able or willing

4

to help".

Since

says

"primarily

teenagers",

take it that you do take

5
6' 7 8

children A. Q. youngest

that are not teenagers? Yes. Okay. And to your knowledge, what is the

child that you have had in one of your

9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20.

facilities? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. those Short time, five, Girl or boy? Both. Both? Yes, sir. And was that at the facility Yes. Okay. And roughly there? what time period were in Arcadia?
I

think.

children A. Q.
I

can't remember. Would that have been in the '90s or

Okay.

21 22
23 24 25

the

'80s? A. Q. Probably Okay. the '80s. of

Could you tell me what proportion

the children A.

that come to your homes are teenagers? all of them. ._------

Practically

BAIN & SIMPSON COURT REroRnRS

SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD

7/22/97
---- .-

-------------~
-- let's agree on is a

81

Q.

And by teenager, of teenager.

you mean

a definition teenager?
4,

What age range

A. Q. A. Q. 12?
!

Well, Okay.

from 13 to 17.

51
6
7,

Through

17. ages five to

And you have also had children

81
9'

A.
Q.

Yes, sir. Okay. And roughly what portion of the the

10 11 12 13
14

children, '90s.

and let's pick a time frame, the '90s what portion

let's_say

During

of the children

were ages A.

five to 12? I can only recall two. That was for just a

15
16

short while.
Q.

Continuing

in that paragraph

it says,

"In

17

some cases children court order".

are sent to the church courts,

home by

In the 1990s what

to your to

knowledge, 20 21, 22 23
24

have sent children

to your ministries,

the New Bethany

Home for Boys or New Bethany

Home for

Girls by court order?

A. Q.

In what time frame? In the 1990s. Probably Springs, Longview, and I think that is

A. Sulphur

25

Texas.
---------SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

---_

..

-----&

______ (318) 429-2160

BAIN

SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS

MACK W. FORD

7/22/97

---1:

---- -----

_-------

-----

82

Q. A.
Q.

Okay. That is in the Tyler area, too,

I

r,

2
3;
i

think.

Any others? There is some others, but

I

A. Q.

can't

recall.

5:
6 7 81

And how many children, to either

to your recollection,

have been referred girls home during A. Q.

!

the boys home or the order?

the 19908 by court five percent.

Probably

9 IO!
11 12 13 14 15 16 17

Five percent? Probably excuse Okay. refers five percent; or by juvenile

A. officers,
Q.

me. When they come -- when a juvenile

officer official placed A.

Q.

them to you, do you get a copy of the saying that they are to be

court documents

with you? Yes, Okay. sir. And in the 1990s, roughly of the boys' what has

18 19
20,

been the population home? A.

Q.

home and the girls'

It is running

about neck and neck.

21 22 23 24 25
!

Neck and neck as to how many? About Okay. 100 and 100. Do you have the year, do you take children or do you just take
,

A.
Q.

at any time during children

at one time, like at the start of the school

---

--SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

__ ,
(318) 429-2160

BAIN & SIMPSON COURT REPORTERS

MACK

-- _._ ..
1;

__ .or

W.

FORD

-- 7/22/97 --'-----------------------that? Bernstein, a bunch of we prefer they talking they get four
83

- ._._----._----

year

something No, in. or sir. You six each ones, that new by

like Mr. take or

.r- \

2
3'

A.
sprinkle about will or

rebels, will

I am

4'
5

five

seven,

they

conspire; So if we

motivate new

other

to do bad. them

61
7 8 91 10
11

five

we sprinkle been there

through, will staff

and

the

older and

kids

has

a while than the

impress will; in

help

the

ones their

quicker attitude

other good

words,

or behavior

and

their

testimony. Q. Okay. the So you year? prefer that they get sprinkled

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

in throughout A. Q. A. Q. come more A. there Yes,

sir.

It is easier? Easier. Okay. Do you find of that the the year school then children than tend to

at certain Yes, sir. truancy. of the

times Right The

others? because

after

starts are

is much care

parents and way or

obligated they have

to take to either and

children, some

therefore find

control of times

them

a placement, But check we us

a lot take

it is private they first

placement. thoroughly

never out.

one

unless

Q.

And

what

proportion

of

the ---

children

tend
-------'

to

----

BAIN & SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS

SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD

7/22/97 -------- -=------- ------the beginning of the school year?

84

come right after Would

2
3
4: 5'

you say most of them tend to come then?

A. Q.

A good percent.
I

am going
I

to --

understand

it is hard to

quantify

it.

am going

to have to ask you to be a When you say

II

little more specific good percent",

!

with me though.

are you talking

about more than 50

8!
9

percent? A.
Q.

No.

Probably

a third.

10 11 12
I
.-'

Probably Yes, sir. Okay.

a third?

A. Q.
i

So in other words,

about

-- if in a you

...... ,

131 14 15
16
171

typical

year you have got 100 boys and 100 girls, 33 boys and 33 girls time frame? Then when school in the

will get about

September-October A.

Yes, sir.

is out, a lot of a year

those kids that has been

there a year or almost

18

go home, and then we pick up a new load. load is where our big problem them all situated that schedule,
Q.

So that new to get

19 20 21
22

lies in trying

and orientated

and get them under

and it is hard to do. I understand that what you ask is that

Now,

23
24

children A. Q.

stay there a year? Yes, sir. But I gathered from what you said is that a

25

.J

BAIN & SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS

SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD

-- 7/22/97 _----------------------------

85

lot of times children school 3

4,

will leave right about made their

the time full

is out even if they haven't

year? A. parents' welcome Yes, sir. discretion, We kind of determine, what they should do. with the

5'

We will their child blah, blah

6
7'

them to stay where more telephone

they can visit calls and blah,

more often,

8
9-

if we feel like that they have progressed And so some we even let go home. parent that is disgruntled; Then

that far. is a

if there

10 11
I

they feel like that they

can't go any further, child. Q.

then they just come get the

12!
/

We never argue with them. Is there a pattern particular that more of the children part of the time, anyone

13

14 15
16

leave at anyone particular A. Q.

I

part of the year than another? Yes. That is when school what portion is out? on how long they have been And we is out. of the children

17_ 18
19
,
i

And roughly

leave about A. there,

the time school it depends

Well,

20

you know, and how they have progressed. a lot of times, Do you think decide that.

21
,

let the parents, Q. Okay.

22 ! 23
24 25

it is a good percentage

of the children? A. Not a great big percent, leave. Again, but it is a percent on how long

of them would

it depends

BAIN

&

SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS

SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD

-- 7/22/97
86

they have been there and their attitude behavior Q. instance, percent after and how they progress. But in the

and their

2
3:

'90s you had said that, of the children,

for about 33

4; 5 6 7 8 9
10

a good percentage

of the children, starts,

come in the early what

fall right to

school

and I guess

I am trying

find out is, do a good percent or so of the children out? A. Q. A. suggest Let's Okay. If their

as in about

33 percent is

leave about

the time school

talk about when school

ends.

11 12 13' 14
15 16

time frame hasn't

elapsed,

then we school.

that they stay.

See, we have summer

We have school year around. Q. A. Right. And we never let out of school except just

17 1S!
19 20

for vacation

time, and then we start back to school. we have summer school during the

The only thing, summer months percent, progress Q. informed educating

only half a day. lot.

So, it would be a good It depends on their

but not a whole

21 22 23
24

and how long they have been And the lawsuit of the expenses each child,

there. are

says that the parents of housing, feeding and

and some voluntarily

make

5l__

c_0_n_t_r_~_. b_u_t_~_' o_n_s_a_s_t_h_e_y_a_r_e_a_b_l_e_. __ H_O_W_ a_r_e __ t_h_e __pa ~_e_n_t_s __

BArN &
SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

MACK

W. FORD

-- 1/22/97

informed A. say, say, what

of the Well, does just

expenses? we have to tell and them, of They tell because times say, us how say we they

r '\

2 3 I
4

it cost, not

a lot it.

we will no, we want it

let's

discuss of the

5!
6

to carry is;

our

share help. or we

load; we go our

much we

we will

So then raise

in and

raise our

so much

food,

animals; lot

raise

si
9

vegetables, have to pay and

and for.

we provide So the

a whole cost

that

we don't

is cut

to a bare how much they

10 11 i 12
r:',
_/

minimum, want

then

they

base

it on

that,

to help. Q. The lawsuit or also federal that do you state says that the church home in

13 14 15 16 17

accepts any

no state I take me,

financial that mean or you by

assistance are talking that

form.

it by what no

about church

-- tell home

that;

the

accepts

federal

financial

assistance? A. 50 years. churches Australia back Mr. Bernstein, met I have traveled the a lot ministry when of roads of also in for

IS
19 20 21 22 23 24

I have that and have here

a lot

of pastors, for their And a lot

provided

in Louisiana. home, us

we come the churches but then

to start

a children's were helping

dropped a lot we of

us that them the

in Australia, kept supporting have

picked

us up and home.

us when to

,_.,

25

started

children's

So we

managed

---_._-- -------_._---_._BAIN

_._---

-----_j
(318) 429-2160

&

SIMPSON COURT REPORlERS

SHREVEPORT,

LoUISIANA

MACK W. FORD -- 7/22/97 --_- -_.

1j

__

..---

.....

_-----So we have

88

raise

the support

of our ministry.

traveled

all this time to provide

the monies

to take again. home in

care of the operation.

Give me that question

4;
5
6

Q.

Sure.

The lawsuit

says that the church financial assistance

accepts

no state or federal

any form, and my question that?

A.

is:

What do you mean by

7 8
9

Okay.

We have raised

our support,

and we

don't asked; money.

take any State money. do you sell babies;

That

is what the governor

10

do you take any State

11 12
.' ....

Q.
A

Okay.

Which

governor

was that?

"

13 14 lS 16 17 18 19
20 I

That is Edwards. Okay. Edwards? That has been back in the beginning. Back in the beginning? Of the home. In the early Yes, sir. Okay. And you told him at that point that '70s? And when were you talking with

../

Q.

Govenor A.
Q.

A.
Q.

A.
Q.

21 22
23
24

you didn't A.
Q.

take any State money? Right. Okay. Now, you heard your wife testify some Social Security

2S

yesterday

that you all do receive

-_
BAlN

..

_----------'
(318) 429-2160

&

SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS ..._- ._- - ...

SHREVEPORT. LoUISIANA

---------_

1:

I I

MACK W. FORD -- 7/22/97 ---------_ .. checks child. A.

Q.

-=------- - . - ---to New Bethany and a

89

that are made payable

2j

31

Yes, sir. Okay. financial And that to you doesn't assistance? we feel that Social because that was paid back before. to be constitute

4!
51
1

federal A. Security

61
71

No, sir, because belongs

to the child,

81

in by the parents

or the legal guardian

91

We feel like that that is rightfully taken care of until we have always Q. or federal they are grown. that.

theirs;

101

That is the way

111
1

understood

12

So if a child was entitled financial assistance,

to receive

state that

r: -\

13

you would

accept

14
15 16

as a contribution A. Security. that Social No, sir. That

to support We never

the child? took any except Social

is why we were under rightfully

the understanding to the child.

171

Security

belongs other

181
1

We have never took any outside support Q. that has been collected Okay.

than child

19
1

by a court. you have received that a court

201

In other words,

21 22 23 r>;
24

child support has collected?

money on behalf

of a child

A.
impression

Now, that is what we were under of. Like our District Attorney

the Mr. May from,

25

says; that if you let me know who we can collect

RAIN

& SIMPSON

COURT REPoRTERS

SHREVEPORT. LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD

7/22/97
90

1 ,_.we-w ill --c 0 11e:-c-~~ ~~. -s-'-u-p-p-o-r-t-.-_... -_. 2I

31

Q. A.
Q.

Okay.

Have you collected tried. tried?

any child

support?

I haven't

4 5 6

You haven't No, sir.

A. Q.

Now, your wife yesterday some payments for a child?

also testified

that

7 8
9

you have received officer A. that? Q. A. child Sure. in Texas

from a juvenile

We were under

the impression

-- may I answer

10 11 12
13

We were under collected

the impression to be passed

that that was

support

on to the child

141
15 16 17 18

or the children
Q.

that we had from that district. in one instance? yes,

And that happened One instance

A. sir.

as far as I can remember,

The rest of the children

Q.

we have kept them free. to the you

So you have not -- with regard that are placed

19
20j

:
J

children

with you by court order, from either

have not received or county A.

Q.

any assistance towards

the state

21 22
23

agencies

the supports

of that child?

Not that I can remember. Does that mean it is possible No, sir. it. If they supported that you have? I know we

24
25,

A. would

UB,

know about

I
BAlN

&

SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS

SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA