'Indonesian government needs to tell the truth Pilger on 1965 killings Slug: Indonesia interview john Pilger Reporter:

Rebecca Henschke Date: 12/09/12 INTRO Indonesian government havent offer any apology for the killings of up to 2 million suspect communists after the failed coup attempt in 1965. The coup was blamed on the Indonesian communist party or PKIthe largest political party at the time. For the government, people who carried out the killings acted to protect Indonesia from communism and therfore securing the country. But award-winning British journalist John Pilger says the Indonesia government must apologies for the brutal 1965 killings and compensate the victims. Rebecca Henschke spoke with him on the sidelines of the Ubud International Writers festival. TEXT: JOHN CLIP 1 (Male, English): There is plenty of evidence. There is an enormous amount of evidence that the killings of 1965 were orchestrated by General Soeharto and his generals. Perhaps when Indonesians openly debates that dreadful time when up to a million people were killed and the fact the army played such a pivotal role they will have a new dimension to their freedom. Q. There is some discussion happening now in Indonesia about the events of 1965 how important do you think that discuss is? JOHN CLIP 2 (Male, English): Well the fact that we are having this interview is encouraging we would not be having this interview 10 years ago. So there clearly is the beginning of that discussion and the fact that we are celebrating a great Indonesian author Pramoedya Ananta Toer at this festival is an encouraging step. But still the silence needs to be well and truly broken. I think in all countries where a great wrong has been donewhere genocide has happened. I am not just talking about Indonesia but my own country Australia and also imperial countries like Great Britain. I suggest that there has to be more than an apology. Q. Why? JOHN CLIP 3 (Male, English): Because an apology is easy. Its a very civilized thing between individuals but when we are talking about great power we are not talking about individual humanity we are often talking about very cynical forces. I dont think an apology has a great deal of value unless it comes with reparations and real political recognition of what happened... in other words, recognition of history.

Q. At the moment members of the Indonesian government are saying we dont need to say sorry for the killings of 1965 because the people who carried out the killings acted to protect Indonesia from communists and to secure the countrythats the official position. How do you respond to that? JOHN CLIP 4 (Male, English): Its ridiculous. There is no serious evidence to suggest that. It was not a communist coup. The communist party in Indonesia was systematically slaughtered and the scholarship around that is enormous. Because a government says something very different doesnt mean the rest of us have to believe it. I dont believe it. I dont think anyone who has study the evidence that has been around for a very long time Q. But not for the Indonesian people? JOHN CLIP 5 (Male, English): Yes thats true. And thats why its even more important that there is a real open debate and a challenge to that kind of government position. You cant have a real democracy where the government is saying something that isnt true. Democracy is about the free flow of information and about truth and that isnt true. Q.How do you feel about that fact that even though there is great press freedom in Indonesia Prabowo Subianto is potentially a very serious Presidential candidate for the 2014 elections? JOHN CLIP 6 (Male, English): I dont know whether he is a serious candidate. I can only go on what I have read that he has the backing of people like Megawati and others who are very serious people and he has apparently the backing of the military. The fact that we are even discussing, even discussing the candidacy of the former leader of Kopassus one of the most infamous organizations of the 20th century is extraordinary to me. Q. Why do you think there hasnt been that change despite the opening up of the press and the number of people who were killed or imprisoned in order to get the democracy we now have in Indonesia? JOHN CLIP 7 (Male, English): Because there has not been any change in the position of the army and military. Q. Not enough? JOHN CLIP 8 (Male, English): I dont think there has been any real systemic change at all. It still has enormously powerful both militarily and in commercial terms.