in GUAGNINI conversation JOHN with KETSEY NICOTAS

GUAGNINI:

I knewwhat you weredoingbut did not knowwhether to like it or not. Oneday I wentto the old gallery GrandStreet.I think it ReenaSpaulings on '04 or early'05. Therewas a ClaireFonwas in late taine show.I becameinterested one of the pieces, in a coinwith a retractable hookthat couldserveas a jimmy,and askedfor the price.Youshowedme a checklist next that had two or three oricesscribbled to each piece.I askedyou whether the priceswere fixed.Yousaid no. From then on, I likedyou.When, how,and whydid you beginto like me? Yourseriesof "monkeyshit" texts in TimeOut New Yorkwas first I heardof you. lthought I likedyou the gallery, laterat Orchard whereI sensedyourmission was to bringout what was most nastyand contradictory there,and whereyou seemedto insiston the flimsiness and moldiness everything was of that (andalready on then emerging crumbling) the Lower EastSide.Youwerethe onlyone smilingin the ruins of Orchard, the onlyone who showedme his and testicles.

KELSEY:

b--.

G UA G N I N I :

ClaireFontaine now morea brandthan a conis spiratorialentity.Youjust fed it to Metro Pictures, a gallery that riffedironically the ideaof branding with four or fivecyclesof critique and legitimization ago. Because my position tellingit like it is and of of attemptingto ride on the contradictions Orchard, at I laterbecamesome kind of officialinterventionist. KathyHalbreich recruited to look into MoMA me whichled to the "9 Screens" exhibition. Oncewe had settledon the occuoation ofthe bankof nine information screensby the ticketcounter a site as for the show,I broughtin Bernardette Corporation, one of yourolderbrandson the market, and Union Gaucha Productions, of mine.I am now so panone ickedat the salutary ideaof intervention I am that position, takinga cue from a truly "unsexy" Martha photogRosler's defenseof realismin documentary raphy, and I'vebeentakingpictures whiteupperof middleclass mothersand daughters situations in of consumption. ratherbe a photographer a I'd for seasonor two than a sanctified anarchist. My initialproposal Orchard for was for it to be a one year project.lt turned out to be three becauseof the conditions the lease,whichwasjust aboutright of as it almostentirely coincided time with the secin ond Bushadministration.was adamant I abouthavingthe end of the project inscribed its conception. in Building ruinswas a simple, and simplistic strategy to dealwith instantabsorption a semi-dignified in manner. I havealways beencurious abouthowyou handle

even time and timing;you neverkill yourfictions, forms.I don't take defined whentheydangerously to finitudeis relaxing me, knowif I likethat because moral but I envyhow you squanderyour contestatory and successful high groundby havingthis protracted is decay.How programmatic that?
KELSEY:

Yourmotherand daughterimagescapturelhe ieune' herselfthroughconsumpf'lle in the act of producing ("the of tion but also in the process decomposing jeune-fille Piper she decomposes"). does not age, was an apartment Marshall and AlexGartenfeld's for ideal"gallery" theirexhibition. decomI'm not surewhatto sayaboutour particular that position the rhythms our fictionsexcept of or the Dadaself-terminatyes, I havealwayspreferred and calcifyslowbloating ing modelto the Surrealist ing model.But I thinkthat what allowsReenaSpaulings FineArt to last and not get too tired of itself is we'vesaid we the fact that from the very beginning We could alwaysstop the gallerytomorrow. always haveone hand on the plug,and we are always Thenwhenwe turn overthe cables. stumbling of as an artist,there'sa feeling aroundand behave the galleryeverytime. So ratherthan one stopping final end we are alwaysendingit and forgettingit. turningthe lightson and It's a sort of intermittence, a a off and making sort of signalthat produces conBut to that's legible at leasta few people. sistency in it's it's not at all programmatic; more parasitic relationto the programof the art world and its nonI boomand bust rhythm. thinkthat, rather sensical

than endingon a note of prosperity success and in 2OO7, wantedto extendour projectinto the we bust, in orderto see to what extent our projectwas merelyan effect of the last boom.
GUAGNINI: Ah,thejeune-fille ...In yourprologue yourtransto

becomeschatty,and chat does not referto anything memuchbeyond itself... it is the new productive of by dium,the production communication meansof communication. neverappears,she Gossip Girl'sreal protagonist is the facelesssourceof this pervasive discourse, text whichin the book is basedpartlyon telephone messages constantly circulating amongits various | characters. Who is doingthe writing? guessit's a "novel"inside authored collaboration, collectively a the novel,or a novelwrittenby its own readers. So ReenaSpaulings took this as a modelwhile novel, attemptingto elaboratea sort of post-literary involving manyauthors, and branding this flimsylit "BC."Another modelwas foundin a bookcalled The Genius the Systern, historyof Hollywood's of a aboutthe studioera. Herewe learned something "stables"of writersthat majorstudiosemployed in production blockbuster of screenplays. the industrial Manywriters, task or speeachwith theirassigned wittydialogue, cialty(comedy, lovescenes, action, together, literally side by side with the etc.)working lined up at a longtable. ReenaSpautypewriters (perhapsshe first lingsalso dealt with Ihe jeune-fille Ferdydurke, you say), as appearsin Gombrowicz's engagement a concept that allowsa simultaneous is with Spectacle Theleune-fil/e a and bio-politics. commodity. is She living, breathing, self-managing and also an agenton the front linesof Spectacle, freedom locatesher so-called and healthwithinits mechanisms, absorbing these insideherselfand her language.

lationof MicheleBernstein's novelA// the King,s you position production relationship Horses her in to producing (she,not "it," in that ReenaSpaulings situation), posea feminist(oid) and question tne to maleauthoritarianism Situaitionism, of Deof and bordhimself(whichis somehow structurally analogouswith Breton's affiliation with Stalinism and the calcification Surrealism-avant-gardes of with expulsion policies!). Theorizing gallery a prologue a a in of publication a stylistic Semiotext(e) gestureproper is of A.J.Raffles. I associatethe jeune-fille with WitoldGombrowicz s celebration youth'simmaturity, of crucial Arto gentineculture.But then there is the Gossip Girl element, whichsoundsmorelike boomand bust. you elaborate the influence Cecilv Would on of von Ziegesar yourwork? on
KELSEY:

Gossip, alongwith cynicism and opportunism, one is of the attributesby which PaoloVirnodefinesthe post-Fordist multitude. Gossip idlechatter... ,,a or contagious prolific and discourse withoutanysolid structure," describes multitude's the relation to language oncethe latterfullyentersthe placeand time of work.lt is always-already shared, and anonymous,requiring external no legitimization. worx Our

The seriesof Enigmas the artist ReenaSpaulings by presented physical tracesof the above."Paintings" basedon tablecloths takenfrom art worlddinners, theyare mute,but also madeor painted with gossip. Unlike the recentabstractpainting some of of our friends, these displayed anothersort of abstraction: "realabstraction," the storyof life (lanor guage, goingto work.Thesedays,most sociability) workhappens the dinnertable,so whynot paintat ing?"Painting besideitself"?Speaking which, of how did you end up painting with yourballs?
GU AGNINI: Giorgio Agamben, closeto some of yourcauses, so

modelsfor all and/or political David Joselit, semiotic must David's recent"network," meaning, including against the alleged sooneror laterbe measured possibilities impossibilities painting. of historical or I to So that'swhypainting, needed checkthat box!!! apparatus. we Whether like it or not, it's our favorite too. It is us. And it paysfor dinner, Testicling enabledme to enactand mockall the and constructions aroundhistorization basiccritical and the the ideaof genius, condensing patriarchal lt in the indexical a singegesture. was my most heartfeltattempt at male feminism(youplugged gesit for me in Artforumas a "brute,faux-macho that in his recentessaypublished ture").Remember besidesitself,"Joselitmakes in October,"Painting of of the argument the re-ownership worksand their Prinaand Manet. meaning apropos Stephen "77 Testicular lmorints" was also made into a book,whereI pulledquotesand editedcontentof with my balls. that the publications I had stamped made of fragmentsthat This createda quasi-essay I coulddealwith readnot unlikegossip.Curatorially, Hitler, Stalinand Hiroshima; Corbuand Picasso; with Ubu Brouwn and Lettrism; but also with Stanley with JonasMekasand PaulSharand JuanDowney; and Asher;and with the biggest its; with Duchamp Seventy swine,and greatestletter writer: Dan Flavin. that allowsfor a self-portrait seven,is a number complex enough and throughreference a discourse And to containsome metadiscourses. then there of was the actualpleasure the making, smearing of

expands towards the biopolitical Foucault's nopartitioning tion of the apparatus, beingsintotwo largegroups: the one handlivingbeings, on and on the otherapparati whichlivingbeingsare incein ssantly captured. his distinction, is not only In it the instances whichthe connection in with ooweris juridical evident, suchas in disciplines, measures, schools, and so on; but also in waysless evident, wherehe highlights computers, cellular telephones, positsthat language and moreover itselfis an apparatus.Herehe is also denouncing the commuhow quicksand nicational techno-utopia a post-Fordist is whereGosslp Girl can be produced "communicaas tion by meansof communication." Nothing models, orientates, determines and interceptsthe art historical discourse morethan the perennial questioning aroundpainting itself.Captured betweenthe mandatesof GerhardRichter and MartinKippenberger, Benjamin of Buchloh and

my ballswith oil paintand slowly violenily or defacingthe paper. was cosmicand comic,seminalano lt scatological, meaning hanging between cockand my my ass. I loved the filth of doingit. Anytime fall into one of our classicrhetorical I argumentswith Dan Graham and he accusesme, and all of us, of being"neo sixties," remindhim I am, ano I some of us are, "neo fifties."I thinkthe ideological genealogy traces and gesturesis operativein of both my imprintsand Reena'sEnigmas; more Fontana and Kleinthan De Kooning and pollock.... Let's rewinda quartercentury. When I was seventeen I encountered the first time the literaryexfor perienceof point of view and the voice of the wrirer being"universal" and "floating" whilealso being particularly modulated and through by eachcharacter and their debates. am talkingaboutThomas I Mann'sTheMagicMountain.As an artist, I wanteo backthen to be that book.Not Mann,but his boor<. But I am too comedic and too sexualfor that-l cheerfully failed.I am also confessing something to veryunfashionable, suchas Mann,whileI shouldbe advertising fully-fledged my Borgesian credentials. Whatwerethe literary experience, experiences, or that shapedyou?Whichtextscaptured yourliving beinginto an aesthetic apparatus and formedvou?
KELSEY:

At some pointin gradeschoolmy classwas askeo to write lettersto our favoriteauthors.I chose Franklin Dixon, nameon the coverof every W. the HardyBoysbook. The replyI got from the publisher

exist,that he was did was that Dixon notactually rVfavoritebookswere in and a pseudonvm that teams of or f"it*riit"n bv commitee by corporate and cheated partlyfascinated writers.I felt partly longbook"wasJaws, Myfrrst bv this revelation. ofthe amazin$ coverwith because *ii"f, f bought uD risin8 to eat the nakedswithe monsteis66yg moviecameout).I also mmer(this*u, pelorethe the hippiefeminist ,."n.'"r.",.an encounterwith in which I discovered gurSeives' Osot, A,odies, OAr to school and smuggled n,'', Jrr"r', bookshelf box showmy friends(that to "'J", in'unltotu MonopolY gun)' smuggled his father's in ;";" ;;; anol'er Kid aboutthe picturesthan the tfris wasmore il;r;;. exper i,-, : .,,-.. I, .wdJ" r t of inst it ut ional . , - oar an wrltlna. Later, "advanced" graders 4th ,"ni-*f,"r" a few select class' 0r 7th 8th gradeEnglish *"t"-t"""0 up to a Our like punishment. first asa time felt *^i* ,f,''" report'I had no sense a book "i r'n"r"ra*rr to Write couldbe' all I knewwas 2 book reporton 5 pageslong'and the book "t'*n"i " t|'ut iinuo io oe arotrnd 100 over pages'So I began ii i"rn", *ni.n) was in forword verysmall letters' ir""r?r'o'.n it word everyothersendropping in"" , o"rr"ration began or the shorten condense book to i"..". ,*,ta simply lv plete misundersta ng ndi com i; ;;; i;;;ri ptibn' comefrom outside somehow ;"i;";;ri6s61e of Anytheimmediacy reading. ortride in"'b"""n?O with Dixonwas mavbe 6e6''n'rnicaion ;;t;;;"'i"; of derailing my earlyliterary and il'#"r;ative experiences. sceneis the discovery primal that your It is ironic

concoction, trauma a that the authoris a corporate of whilecatering the requirements an to acquired institution. educational with As muchas you haveexperimented the dissoartmaking an as lutionof authorship and attacked subject,for each activitygroundedin an expressive there is a text signedby John Kelof your endeavors seriesyou mentionedbeforecorsey.Ihe Enigmas yourentry in lexte Zur Kunst's respondsto "Dinner," published coupleof summersago, a criticallexicon and Reenais theorizedin the prologueI referred the writer, in are to, and so on and so forth.You, chargeof the officialexegesisof you the producer YouremailaddresssalutesRobert of oroduction. Walser, figureas obscureas exquisite.I often feel a that John Kelseythe writer is more a perverseand ratherthan a an erudite prankster, eighthgrader, fourth graders. for victim of an experiment advanced
KELSEY:

book,I was In the introduction the Bernstein to mainlyattempting contextualize activityof my to the how it functioned relation in and explain translation FineArt. lt was of Spaulings to the operation Reena between of the a question mapping connections withinwhich my own writing and the socialsituation for it occurred. it wouldbe impossible me as But a writerto sign or take chargeof all these years of groupactivitythat in so manywaysexceedand my abandon sad solo effortson the laptop. began,a story so banal And here'show the Enigmas you knowit must be true: ReenaSpaulings was in

her installlng debutshowat SuttonLane London with the Frieze gallery, to whichhappened coincide an We fair in 2006 or 2OO7. had prepared exhibition paintings a slickcondohighrisethat of of pointillist goneup nearour gallery Delancey on had recently A Tschumi). few by designed Bernard Street(B/ue, we'reat a party opening nightsbeforeour London at for the Fischli& Weissretrospective the Tate we and suddenly get a phonecallfrom Modern, Sutton Laneasking if we could providea largehoribooth.The for formattedpainting their Frieze zontally the nextday,so this was obviously fair was opening request. we pullworkfrom our Do an outrageous gallery showand dragit overto the fail or leave Still the partyand workall nighton a new painting? I on the phonewith the dealer, look downand see it's realizing exactly this long,blackTatetablecloth, what he's askingfor. The next nightwe took another Christopher from a dinnercelebrating tablecloth to at Wool's opening SimonLeeand decided work it beganin into our Sutton Laneshow.So the Enigmas panic London the directresultof the contagious as (allthe time).But that drivesdealersat fair time the "Dinner"text you referto was more of an afterand likean artist'ssignature, nothnothing thought, of or of charge the meaning reception ing liketaking were made by whoever work. Ihe Enigmas Reena's the happened be sittingaround table at the time to Wool Christopher Luhring, (Glenn Lawrence Brown, to ...),and by the dealerwho needed fill somewall the spaceand inspired ideain the first place."Dinelsewhere. and appeared ner" came later,

L-

Maybe now is the time for you to explain"Power Structure," groupshowyou curatedat Andrew the placeyourself the Roth.Didn'tyou somehow at groupshowa sort centerof this device? lsn't every of panopticon controlled the curator? by Whatdid it helpyou see in terms of yourown relations withthe artists you invited?
GUAGNINI:

I don'tthink it is a matterof takingcharge of or degrees authorship. just that yourwritingreinof lt's scribes and somehow historicizes realtime these in diffuseactivities. "Power Structure," also a reinscription, simiwas larlyborneout of dealerpressure. had donetwo I successfulprojectswith AndrewRoth.Breakeven, in whichGareth Jamesand I askedthat the gallery placea full-page blankadvertisement the 2006 in summerissueof Artforum.We then invited seven artists:Alejandro Rodney Cesarco, Graham, Jutta Koether, Guillermo Kuitca, Seth Price, Nancy Spero, and Lawrence Weiner intervene the blankad. to on The sevenoriginal worksconstituted "deluxe a edition." The balanceof the orint run of Artforumwas considered "popular the edition." The profitfromthe "deluxe sale of the edition"was divided between the invited artistsand the gallery. Gareth and I did not intervene directly the blankpagenor did we paron take in anyfinancial transaction. Thenthe following year I did 77 Testicular lmprints.Both piecessolc. Andrew wantedanotherubergesture and I was in a bindto deliver. had all these physical I remainders publicacceptance: of my incipient Buchloh's thank-

Kathy'sMoMA you note on October's stationary, cockinviteto a collector's card,some handrwitten to structure tail, etc. So I builta kindof Tatlinesque pastethem and display a "powerstructure," them, betweena seniorhigh that looks like a crossover nostalgia. and neo-modern schoolscienceproject of I then calleda number artistswhosework I like publishers, dealers, curators, and that are writers, in morepositions the power in short,that occupy a'67 Dan than simply"artists."I included structure of Grahampiecethat proposesthe replacement art amongartists. for criticism a threewaydialogue Piperhad the ideafor "MiddleMan,"the three perin son showwith Danand JohnMiller(alsoincluded the Rothshow)whichfeaturesmy mother-daughter pictures, Dan'spiecein that whenshe discovered juxtaposedwith the work was directly setting.That edits, which Artistsbooksthat Alejandro Between a is whatwe are doingrighthere.Reenaproduced portraitof me so ugly I don't daretake it out of the and closetmorethan oncea year.LuisCamnitzer werein the show.In the middleof the JuanDowney room,my structurefunctionedas a panopticon-as somebabbled you described. pressrelease The in the thing like,"Among manyvectorspresented is of this configuration artists,the most discernable Art. of of a re-reading the legacy Conceptual In turn, to they utilize dissemieachsharein the methods natetheir ideas:the publicspaceof the magazine, of conditions production videoart, and the cultural generations SouthAmerican artists livof of several as lt in NewYorkCity." is as generic ing and working it is true.

I L

Yesterday was browsing I mags and saw yourfarewellad to ClaireFontaine Artforum.ltcontaineo in the face of Karl Marx,four times. I enviedthe piece and wish I'd done it. Tellme aboutit.
KELSEY:

To makea longstoryshort ... ClaireFontaine leavis ing us, movingoverto Metro Pictures. There'sno bad bloodherebecause helped we them findthis othergallery and negotiated transition, the agreeing it's the best thing for everyone, etc., but it always gets touchywhenart worldrelationships change or end. lt's also so painfully predictable, way the thesethingsplayout (the decisions that artists make).In this case,Reena wanted publicly to mark the moment(andall of its obvious and repressed meanings) with a sort of "ad;' We always see galleriesannouncing addition newartiststo their the of rosters, advertising putting expansion programs, of their powermovesin our faces,etc. So we thought it wouldbe amusing announce loss instead, to a to advertise shrinkage, a and-leavingthe phrasing of the ad somewhat open-maybeevenan inability or refusalto continuetogether. Thoseads are pretty expensive, too, so it was a total waste of gallery cashannouncing loss (of an artist,of capital) this ... a loss markedby a loss.The onlycopyin the ad is "CLAIRE FONTAINE NO LONGER IS WORKING HERE." Thisalso refersto the "humanstrike"themeof their finalshowwith us, and the ad coincided roughly with that show'sclosing, and also with the installation of a CF neon overthe entranceto Elizabeth Dee's "lndependent Fair"at the old DIAspacein Chelsea (whichin turn coincided withthe Armorv fair).So the

a marking momentwhere marker, ad is a temporal were in some cases a lot of differentrelationships under and in othercasessolidifying comingundone We the pressureof the currentrecession. were actuto to allyopposed CF'scontribution the Independent as we because knewit wouldonlyfunction a logo there, like a free ad for the fair. But the artist reand the exposure, usedthe situation allywanted to mark its own moveoverto Metro (theirsign was "courtesyof" both Metro and RSFA). in Thereare so manytensionsand contradictions betweenan artist relationship the co-dependent each and a dealer.The two functionsco-produce tries to make sometimes other.ReenaSpaulings side. lt art out of this, and this has its therapeutic of for was also therapeutic us to paintportraits all with we'vebecomeassociated the otherart dealers Relationships overthe years(Ihe Dealers,2OOT). so betweendealersare alwaysinteresting, many This is one flexing' forcedsmiles,so muchmuscle like we of the reasons actually doingart fairs, onlytime the dealersshowup all it's because the in together the same space,on the same supermarket shelf, and we've learneda lot watchingother for dealersperforming eachotherthere.Normally but dealersstickto their ownterritory the fair is like oncesaid that artists a dealerorgy(MikeKelley your go it's shouldn't to fairs because likewatching parentshavesex).
GUAGNINI: Was my portrait intendedas a portraitof a dealer?

I still own ten percentof Art Sales and Services

(ASS), limitedliability the corporation controlled that Orchard. last institutional The salesare still trickling in. Youknow how long it takes to go throughcommiteesand boards.... Howdo you dealwith sales? I meanwith the veryact,the tediousexplanation of the workand its qualities someone to whomyou mightrespect not,the momentof the discounr or ... the miseries commerce? of
KELSEY:

art than some art historians know. I and muchmore interesting talk to. to (threeblocksaway), Orchard, from my perspective seemedto fetishize institutional oower... universities and museums. Therewas always this needto havea PhDconnected a show or event,or an Octo toberconnection, vitrine, seriousness. now a a And you havebeenmoving behind the wallsof MoMA whichseemsa rathernatural easytransition, or from Orchard the museum.Do you everfeel like to one of those animalsin Kafka's writing?
GUAGNINI:

Yourportraitwas our first of a curator, and I'm sorry if it struckyou as ugly. for selling As things,I have no problem with that. Oneof my mainproblems with artists is the pretense that theirowntedium is somehow aboveor separate fromthe tediumof selling, distinction a that theycontinue enforce to in theirgestures and time-worn habits("the artist's life").lts also my problem with criticsand historians-the feignedneutrality the discourse, going of on as if their language weresomething pureand detached from business and life,and the moredetachedtherefore morecritical. the Artiststhough, they havea wayof endlessly constructing formal freedoms around the normalization the artistof dealer(andartist-critic) relationship, theyalways and get sad whenthis relationship questioned. is Artists can onlycontinue beingartistsif theyhavedealers who continue relating them as dealers, to and critics sitting at a safe remove.Forus it was neverreally aboutembracing business, aboutusingthe deait's ler roleto say something aboutthe artist role.lt's playing against efficiency a certaindivision the of of labor. And I don't preferartiststo collectors. Some collectors knoware muchmoreintelligent I about

lf there is a Kafkastory I identifu with it's "ln the Penal Colony," whichthe writtensentence inin is flictedon the accused, who is ultimately sentenced withouta trial,by a torturemachine that inscribes it in his body, hencefulfilling sentence. the Again, I don't identiflt with the victim, the machine operator or Kafka,but with the narrationitself. It's strange... you started differentiating from me pretense. come backat me with the Orchard and a demandon its general tone. I agreewith your of attackon the false pretenses purityand disciplinaryautonomy art and criticism. for Selling part of is the work,of course.Exchange valueis everyday life. That'swhat "PowerStructure"was about,curatorially. historians Art oftenworkfor dealers, besides workingfor and from lvy Leagueivorytowers.And manycollectors understand thingsaboutart that people who don't own it do not understand and neverwill.

from LibMy own position:I took my strategicclues of Pedagogy the and PauloFreire's erationTheology of disciplinary You Oppressed' take on majorblocks education) power(religion' intersecting knowled$e inside'So' yes' I am a them fromthe and subvert as insofar it is a fetishist'Fetishism' full-fledged resolvethe castrationanxiety' attemptto projective with "institutional is in this contextsynonymous power'" shortlyWe'lltacklethe wholeMoMAexperience on the LowerEast Sidefor a little longer' let's stay myself' I alwaysfelt, three blocksawayfrom Reena with a contesthat the questionof style associated in the sameway in tatoryhalofunctioned yourspace was operative Roornconnection that the October/Grey is the onlygallery ..' in Orcharcl ReenaSpaulings as I walked that ever made me questionmy haircut Staplesbutton stating' Hablo in; that's why I wore a one of your openings'I alwaysfind legitiEspanolto Martin Kipsomewhatrefractory' matingnyper-style de Landare dead! penberger Colin and KELSEY: the only and And Kippenberger De Landare not onceat orchard us! | remember corpsesamongst with Reena saidthat the problem whenDanGraham prettyfunny' was that it was too "chic"! Thatwas plywood had a styletoo' a sort of yogurtand Orchard organcarefully and eyeglasses thing,ano smud$ed not to mention ized readingmaterialsittingthere' and the way and the stylesof socializing gossiping' as if in a NewYorker clad)clustered bodies(darkly Nf GUAGNf:

we everything cartoon,erc. Thereis alwaysstyle' in thinksaboutstyle'especially do. I like how Deleuze writingand tennis'Styleis howyou whendiscussing I get past you""lf, the wayto get aroundobstacles' its style'I or didn'tmeanto pin you downto Orchard W aS actua| | ymorecur iousabout howyour par t icu|ar from there (out way of movingworks' how you move that I remember of therel)to tvtolR and other sites' you had timed a dayof Orchard on the final,closing much different solo show at Fruit& Flower-another' away'Forthat showyou type of $allerya few blocks neckties' designed as a NewYorker of Yourstylisticdescription Orchard an importantaspect of its aestnecartoonpointsto gallery' Kind tics and ethos:it was a veryJewish Left bourgeoisie West Side post-New of the Upper the other meetsthe LowerEast Side' Reena'on and redux'an iconographical Cahand,is Cologne tho| i cendeavor despit eyour ownpr ot ot ypica|WASP.
N ESS.

of Orchard's An aspect I would not like to overlook all its self-deprecating ethos'with humanist liberal assumptions' democratic guilt and its normalizing laterwhenwe discuss (on whichl'll elaborate was its again)' whichI chooseto postpone MoMA, and my role in it' I am referpoliticalcommitment' show I curated' Ll ringto tne "september L973" piece in the bathroomby Jeff Preiss and to tne SSS pictureof Bush ano yourstruly'whichfeatureda cenbowl'and whichwas briefly insidethe toilet and Belgium-state-sponsored-anarchist sored by the

conservative hippieJef Geys, with the subservient acquiescence R.H.Quaytman RheaAnastas' of and cheerleading. refusal the solo showwas the The of centerof a heateddiscussion withinOrchard, and SadieBenning's solo outingarticulated fallout the betweenmyselfand most of the other members. On closing day, whichconjured full spectrum the of (Jerry Saltzand Roberta our publiclegitimacy Smith, you and Emily Sundblad, the Octoberized all and post-minimal GreyRoomed artisticglories whomwe exhibited and discussed and several the art histoof rianswho also routinely discussthem,a specific art worldwingof the LGBT community, so on, and and so forth,and so what),I openeda solo show in the now defunct first incarnation the Fruitand Flower of Deli.Rodrigo MalleaLira,who runsthat ghost "gallery," a Chilean is forcedly exiled Sweden his to in childhood, rightafterthe '73 coup.So I bonded with him because are bothchildren the failedrevowe of lution.I am attractedto experiments with the gallery form,suchas Rodrigo's Alex's or and Piper's. I procewanted enactsome kind of opportunistic to ssionof all these luminaries from one venuein the LowerEast Sideto another.I worethe tie I featured in that showto boththe closing and the opening. YouknowI militantly dressdown,so dressing up yourfarefor the closing was a gesturenot unlike well ad to ClaireFontaine. tie. that reoeats The the word"capitalism" the typography greencolor in and schemeusedfor the dollarbill,was a collaboration with a Harvard namedAlexander kid Olch.He'sinc r edib l y i p ,a fi l m m a k eru n n i n g n i c hebusi ness h r a of handmadesilk ties sold at Bergdorf Goodman

I Ceremony.wantedto checkthe "artand Opening as-fashion" too, and doingso as a goodbye box gesture Orchard, at to whereI finished oddswith was to me a properstylisticturn of almosteveryone, the screw. Youaffect a fake dressingdown,with very specific I connotations.am talking subcultural critical and woolshirt. RalphLauren aboutyourpseudoNavajo me But what interests moreare yourcaps,whichto yourgrimness dimensions meaning of to me nuance "punctum." me aboutyour Tell that are waybeyond with involvement the capsand yourpolitical et Committee, al. Theyare Tarmac the Invisible 9, You not certainly goingto MetroPictures. enacted not in some othertypeof procession UnionSquare, far from Seth Price'snew loft.
KELSEY:

as RalphLauren-who'sat leastas Jewish Orchard gay, -is such a vaguestyle,so generic(straight, that I don'tthink it makesmuch suburban?) urban, untilyou twist it a little at of a statement all, really, this way or that. lt works as a kind of a base-coat. it's Riding hellishL trainto Williamsburg, actuthe a allyrarenot to be sharing car with at leastthree I'm of doppelgangers. conscious beinghalf-disappeared here, in and absorbed a nastymonoculture oneself but it takes too much energyto differentiate Thecapjust puts a cap on the disasterof beingso in whatever NewYork.lt's a capitulation. We don't haveto talk about MoMAif you'd prefer you'dliketo say something more not to. Maybe

aboutyourtesticular imprints? actually to I'd like hearaboutyourfeminism and how it's articulated via yourballs,in that particular instance. also I'm curious aboutyourcastration complex. really I don't knowmuchaboutpsychoanalysis.
GUAGNINI: Aboutmy own castration complex I wouldsay is all

that my motheris a psychoanalist a feminist. and Feminism naturally defaultposition is a anywhere left of Gagosian, moreso for us bornin the sixand ties. So the question not whether subscribe is to to an ideological struggle how can this be made but wholewith who I am. In the standard re-reading of essentialist feminism(Laura Cottingham), femiif ninityand masculinity constructs, are theyare only partially men and womennonetheless so: have fundamental biological differences.can onlytruly I "speak"from my testicles, posifrom my biological tion in that struggle whichI am always-already in an oppressor. The bookfor "77 Testicular lmprints" openswith sevenuttera nces: patria rchy,privateproperty, power, progress, position, packaging, personality, yieldthe formulafor the perfectly whichcombined "successful" artist,potentially constructing gena ius. I also thought that in the masternarrative of malegenitalart, AbEx, Acconci's masturbation, gymnasticsaga of sexualdifferenMathewBarney's tiation, theyall take themselves seriously. too But, I am serious aboutthis piecebeingmalefeminism. Thisentailsto laughmainlyat myselfas a white LatinJewish straight male,but also at a certainPC

asoectof feminismas an academic and art world yourfeminism discourse. How's doing,by the way? Whilstthe jeune-fille, you claim,can be a figure as of discourse wherebiopolitics a critique the and of intersect, can also be immediately spectacle she little slut-the basic constructed an objectifiable as commodity the fashion-art-tv of complex.Between, to, and from sexyto sexistthere is a no man'sland police wherethe fashionpoliceand the academic are out there to get you-and her.
KELSEY:

Premiersmatdriauxpour une th1orie de la jeune-fille is a bookby Tiqqun that cameout in 2001. lt calls itself "trash theory,"as it is constructed arounda series of citationslifted from the coversand content of mainstream women's magazines and lifestyle (Cosmopolitan, etc.), pastingthese into a Se/f, discourse that references Foucault's workon late biopolitics the careof the self. lt is not at all and an academic book,it comesfrom somewhere else. "fhe jeune-fille techniqueof the self," "theJ-euneas f//e as social relation,""the jeune-fille livingmonas ey,"and "Ihe jeune-fille war machine"are some as of its chapters. the theoryis a critique the So, of jeune-fille that turns a certainadvertising-type discoursebackon itself,that attemptsto understand the commodification the self and the neo-liberal of ideology self-enterprise relation the biopoin of to liticalmanagement health,life and nothingness of "She" is not gender-specific, underEmpire. she men includes citizens the metropolis, all of including and old people. are alljeunes-fl/es. We

G UA G NI N I :

Then,what would be an outsidelo lhe jeune-fille? Andwhatwouldbe an outsideto feminism within anycontestatory discourse? In the metropolis, the.y'eune-fl/einescapable. is She is a surveillance camera, ad, a yogachampion, an a greenconsumer, discourse, medicine, money, a a a a depression, fun. She is in yourballs,too. She a must go to war with herself,it's the only way. I agree, must be at warwith ourselves. aligns we This with my spie/on subverting disciplinary blocksof knowledge from the inside, and with yourrecognition of marketconditions part of our productive as situation-consumptionis production. But, I still cannot distillanything relationship genderhere.Mapin to pingdifference courseis inevitably apparatus. of an That'sthe curseof cultural studies.Bridge gap the betweenlhe jeune-fille and feminism,as you hint on the prologue Bernstein's to novel. Twodudeschallenging eachother's feminism, this doesn'tbodewell.I think it's less a question of whatis a womanor a feministthan how someone inhabits that predicate, howwe inhabit gap or the that separates bothfrom our genderassignment us and our declaredLeftism.Thejeune-fille a sort of is feminism that speaksbackin the re-appropriated language the very apparatusit wantsto destroy: of Elle.lt works in the gap betweene//eand elle,elle and nous. It is impossible imagine revolution to a that is not

KELSEY:

feminist, feminismneedsto fightitselftoo, but otherwise risksconfusing potential it its radicality with matriarchal forms of control, whichare no better than the "hard" patriarchal forms.Somewhere it has been suggested that networksare a matriarchal form.
GU A GN IN I:

GUAGNINI:

In regardsto "networks,"a total buzzword this at point,we needa working definition and a taxonomy. The CIAcan be described a hierarchical as network composed several of horizontal networks. Thisdoes not make it any better or establishesontological differences patriarchal matriarchal for and oppression. I'm not actually surewhya network wouldbe matriarchal. Maybe this ideahad something do to with the feelingof a motherly embrace, general our infantilism today,and the perceived softnessof everything molecular. does soundparanoiac. it's lt And not my ideaso I won't push it. On the otherhand, these boysclubscontinue claimterritories the to in art world.lsn't therea pointwherewe all decide how muchto allowourselves participate and to in howfar to identify with these convivial fraternities that always organize themselves our midst,and in whichof courseinclude women?

KELSEY:

KELSEY:

GUAGNINI: As muchas I agree, and you well knowthat my pri-

marycollaborator a decade for was a woman,and in quality fact I always controlmy production against a woman I love,I havea boysclub fantasy. Curiously enough one of the writersthat obsesses

me the most is MichelHoullebecq. Totalmale swine paranoia. don'tthink it is evenin fashionanymore I to be for or againsthim*it's pass6.But I havethe desirethat he writeaboutmy workfrom a paranoid perspective.
KELSEY:

you know:Roberto Jacoby, DanGraham, Juan Downey, JohnMiller, LuisCamnitzer.

KELSiEY:

Houellebecq describes impotence the swine the of beforethe everlowing pornoscreenof post-'68 culture, limp dick at the end of sexualliberation. the Maybenow would be the time to returnto mommy MoMAand yourrecentworkthere.Howwas she?

Youand Richard Prince. But I supposeHouellebecq wouldratherstickto his own misery. wouldn'tbe lt m uc hof a c l u b ,I th i n k ,w i thh i m . Whatdo you meanaboutquality controlling against a woman? Thatsounds... controlling. not sure I'm whatto do with yourswinefeminism, Nic.
GUAGNINI:

GUAGNINI: Of courseit's all controlling. lsn't Houllebecq in-

formedby both Sade'sand Choderlos Laclos's de justifications sexualintrigues of and excesses, whichare nothing forms of control but codified in literary forms?WhatI meanis that whileI do not you nor I can really honestly think neither makea significant contribution femlnist to theoryor militancy,supporting positionimpliesliving yourlife aca cordingly. my case,this has manifested In itselfin a curiousproductive structure, whichI cannotclaimis particularly feministin a socially usefulmanner, but that certainly impliesa recognition an equality of at the deepestlevel.I am always relationships in with womenartistswhomI deeplyadmireand against whosecriteria am constantly I negotiating mine.lt's a position my subjective epistemic in and horizon that kind of definesme, evenif I perpetually associate myself with male "masters," and masternarratives not unlikethe clubsvou mentioned ...

Houellebecq upholds also some kind of returnto a primitive and primitivist sexualeconomy, ironically in syncwith Marx'sand Engel's assumptions about communism primitive beingthe original economy. Influenced Catholicism, by Houellebecq makesall his maleswinecharacters dearlyoncetheyaccess pay that lost primitive sexuality. me he is the writer For who has really absorbed Foucault presented and his knowledge and in everyday in a plausible as life narrative. As for she-MoMA, foreplay was moreexciting than intercourse. I'd rather But talk aboutour common experience with her.Howdid youfeel aboutmak. ing art for a lobby, with a captive audience thouof sands?

KELSEY:

I like reading Houellebecq I don't see much but Foucault eitherin his primitivism in this figureof or just the crucified whitemalewho basically follows the nihilistlogicof an imploded society its end. to I heardthat he'sactuallv Stalinist. a

MoMAwas likegetting dippedin quicksand. The lobbyis a lot likean airportterminal, and the video screens can onlyfunctionlikethose in airports. We (Bernadette Corporation) didn'tsee it as a place to present videoart. Instead, triedto makean we imageof and with the emptytime and eventlessnessgenerated the museumitselfand by the by programmed cycling the museum's of information panelsoftware.Ourwork, TheBig C/ock, wantedto just spin there like the revolving racks in the lobby's coat checkareaand the revolving doors.We came intothe museumlike bad touristsand we left in the same way.
GUAGNINI: The intersection betweenpower, oppression and

GU AGN IN I:

sexuality that emerges whenHouellebecq describes the socialrealmin whichhis narratives take olaceis what has a Foucaultian dimension me. for Howcan youtell a goodtouristfrom a bad one?Or a good artist from a bad one?
KELSEY:

I don't knowwhat makesyouthinkthat between TheDepartment Eagles, of new media,and the con(formerly knownas the prints ceptualart galleries and illustrated bookslateral depository) there is placefor bad boys,/good not alreadya guaranteed artists/ bad tourists/ iconoclastspost-fla rs. We neu havealready beenpre-archived, probably the and by whomwe havebeendiningwith,as MoMA curators underwent majorgenerational a change. WhatI learned working the otherside,as you put it, is on that all the liberal humanist asoirations the mu of seum are aliveand kicking, both out therefactually Yes,it's a placewherepeople and withinmyself. travelin time, meeteventually, havesome kind of experience Broadway Yankee that or Stadium cannot givethem (andonlyfor 20 bucks!). WhenI was a teen I was kind of nerdish and could The onlypick up girls in museums bookstores. or museumis deeply at transformative, leastfor the types like me. I go to museco-opted contestatory in ums,anymuseum, anywhere the world,and have novelsand soccer truly a goodtime. Onlymuseums, entertain me. Museums giveyou something. do

A goodtouristentersthe museum educate to himself or at leastto bask in the auraof its treasures, probably readsall the walltexts and rentsan aupaysattention. dioguide, Likewise, goodartist a seesthe museumas an archive be studied, to mastered and extended. Something that. A bad like tourist onlygoes to the museumagainsthis better instincts, goes because or there'snowhere else to go, same as he goes to departmentstores or a Broadway show.A bad artist is a good tourist. A goodartist is in his best moments bad tourist. a

KELSEY:

The besttime I everhad at MoMAwas someyears I ago at an Andreas Gursky exhibition. had dragged a friendalongand he was so boredhe decided to do a sort of performance the museum, in announcing to the spectatorsthat he was AndreasGursky in person, explaining his missionwas to make that pictures the metropolitan of disaster and beautiful sell them backto us at a profit, that the practice of

supphotography all the moneyhe was making and portedhis cocaine habit,etc. Thecrowdlistened him from imageto imageuntilthe and followed guardscaughton and we werekickedout. I think it's to of all a question one'srelation one'sown archivthat ingthere(howto showup or not in an archive you).I still likethe idea pretends already include to the towards of bad tourismas art, or as an attitude what MarcelBroodFor archive. me, this is exactly thaerswas doingwith his museumsignage. greeting visitorslikea Cattelan Maurizio GUAGNINI: Remember MoMAverpuppet? giantPicasso Thereis an official for the Prankster. sion even in All alongyou havebeeninsisting those moments criticality between in whichthe airtightcontinuity has and legitimation a gap,a kindof "outside" yourself. Working the "9 in whereyoutry to position the project occupied simultaneously posiI Screens" accupuncturist institutional tion of artist,curator, I and negotiator.came out of thosewatersfilledwith that and contradictions, withthe conviction entropic signsreally Broodthaersian thereare no brotherly av ailable . and Maybe,in a good week,a meta-structure, conis to scale.Downscaling whereit is at to retingent Reenaand the Orchard, of tain a modicum negation. LowerEastSidewereaboutthat,too.
KELSEY:

authorof the work,who are not always the so-called had a nice idea person. Adorno Theodor the same as a sort of socialagentfor aboutthe artist acting the aestheticsubject.lt's via the gap betweenthese two that the subjectelaboratesan objectiverelation to itselfin art. As longas there'sthis gap' or go we or distance, non-identity, can actually to worK way,or something' on the subjectin an objective this gap' And I is Display one meansof creating the doorfor prettymuchopened think Broodthaers and on display discourse all this. He put institutional director/decoHe madeit strange. was the Musuem rator. on ..' GUAGNINI: S ure... A dorno I 'vebeenwor king "Nic"a lot ' and decor' display Regarding I meanobjectively. thoughtthat the criticalaspect of BroodI've always and emphasized how comedic work is overly thaers are and his mechanisms critiques is oftenoverboth Humoris mYobjective. looked. Knowany goodjokes?

KELSEY:

GUAGNINI: Whywas Hitlersucha bad artist? KELSEY:

GUAGNINI:

I don't know,whY? He didn'tknowwhento stop. joke.Yourbestjoke is yourtitle That'san Adornian essay:"My other catalogue Prince for a Richard Do Prettyfunnyfor a WASP you paintingis a car." jokes? haveanyserious

possible produce gap bea to I guessit's always the tweenoneselfand oneselfor between artist and

KELSEY:
GUAGNINI:

Whyis the scarecrow goodat hisjob? so

Don't knov" ...

KELSEY:

Because he's out standing his field. in

GUAGNINI:

and films,etc. I see these as poeticgestures about the outsideof poetry,by puttingpoetryinto a new kindof relation with the imageand with display. Anyway, only a poet can decidenot to write poetry, or activateit as im-potentiality. Broodthaers schooled the demiseof Surwas in poetry a criticalpoeticsof realism. replacing In for display is understanding the shift towards he both publicspaceof the the audience that the specific art exhibition implies, and the end of poetryas a representative discipline-bythis I meanthat in the secondhalf of the Twentieth Centurypoetryis no longer majortheaterof ideas.Alsoa goodway the to get rid of all that stiff cult of imagery. Out of Surrealistmethodologies havedetourwe nementand Broodthaers. The detournement too is Cartesian, dialectic, too Hegelian; both too and as Duchamp and Debord are. Broodthaers's abandonment of poetry, and its realization im-potentiality, as is structured a joke. He staysclearof the reducas tive didacticlogicassociated with institutional crrtique,whichit inherited fromthe most anal retentive aspectsof Minimalism. Broodthaers's humormight be the wayout of a current disease: the ideathat per criticality se is a higher value.Andthere is no you opposition. you laughwith or at Broodthaers, lf alwayshaveto ask yourselfwhy.
KELSEY:

GUAGNIN|: A joke in the expanded field,meaning hinging a on gap. My best poemfollows that logic:cock tail. Haveyou tried your hand at poetry?
KELSEY:

Besidesthe 130 pageepic poem with Bernadette Corporation, so much.Poetry not has become an official littlebusiness that happens university in departments. secret, jealouswish is that it can oe lts out wherethe art and the moneyis, but it's lost its connection. wantedto steal poetrybackfrom the BC poets,makea poemwithouta poet,and makeit as good-looking art. as

GUAGNINI: Yes,I saw (or did I read?) the invisible handin thar

poem.Theability consolidate to identity, be a to demiurge that represents socialaspirations and createsideological aesthetic and marketshas been strippedfrom poets long ago. Architects occupythat position now.Whydo youthink Broodthaers opteo out of poetry?
KELSEY:

I don'tthink he really stopped. Sinking published his poetryin plaster, where it becameforeverunreadable,is to me a kindof poetry, too. Thentherewere his openlettersand all the otherwriting that appeared exhibitions, text works,soundoieces in his

I'm interested whatcouldbe calledimmanent in modesof critique, critique or that risksabandoning its properplacein orderto assumethe creative

possibilities its own practice, elaboratea more of to conspiratorial relationship the objectit addresswith

positioned of reach.But you can't critique out somethingif you can'ttouchit. Thereis no morecritique in critique. Agamben's short essay"Whatis an Apparatus?" lt's has poppedup consistently our dialogue. in text for this moment. turningout to be an important I to Bataille, In general, relatethe profane Georges and in particular with menstrual bloodand shit as and beingthe ultimateheterogeneity, the sovereign. The critique Christianity paysoff for Agamben of still and Jean-Luc Nancy. Clownishness, self-deprecatory ... comedy, scatology I feel at home.Thereis also melancholic aspectto this construct an inherently (l'm thinking MikeSmith,for example). there But of that won't be absorbed in is also a latentviolence By of merecritique. the way,in the opening "Middle apropos Man,"CarolGreene askedme the question pictures, and in its plainest my mother-daughter "Whereis the critique, and most directformulation, Thatis: Nic?"Whereis it, John?Let'sbe critical. let'smourn.Or else let'sswineu0.
KELSEY:

"Whereis the critioue?"That'sa Texte Kfunst zur type of question that we already see comingfrom a mile away. Thedemandis for a criticality tthat locatesitselfin a recognizable and that uses way a certainestablished all styleof discourse, 'the whiledisavowing both its own aesthetic andl its own complicity with power. Critique that disavowsits own creativity alwaysbetraysa certain reserntment towardthe creativity the practicesit judges. lts of favorite insultis to accusewritersof "belle-llettrism," whichonlyproves own insecurity langulage its in I do agreewith Adorno that critique shouldbe heretical,and the bestjokes are likethat too. Reaently I was thinkinghow importanlvaudeville folr a is certaingeneration post-6Os of artists,particcularly in Dan Gnaham, the Pictures Generation NewYork, how CadyNoland, etc. lt's interesting these tendencies gravitated towardlow forms of entertairnment masochistic loserstand-ups, and comedy: c:lowns, humor, etc. Thereis sormething bad acting, Catskills in and Agambenhas veryprofane these attitudes, as a nicewayof thinkingprofanity a reroutirng of sacredcontentsback into the field of everydayuse. To profane to makeuseful.lt's a kindof hreretical is redistribution. on The demand critique, the otherhand, smells for of the sacredor of an orderwherecertainthrings are

aboutBC'sIhe Somebody askedthe samequestion Poem,as if you could pointyourfingerat Complete critique, put it we it. But as soonas we recognize and nothing transis overthereat a safe distance, organizes roundtable or sympoa formed.Someone we and suddenly thinkwe see sium (minusalcohol), rightthereon the table.Youknowit's criit again, is tiouewhenthe audience in their seats and nothlt's ing is happening. prettyrarethat art and politics to reallv crosswires,but these are the moments

to immune eachother, mutually lookfor.They're the two resentful, worldsbuilt up around mutually of impossibility evertouching. you an But isn't the swinebasically artist?Maybe theysay just wantto finallybe an artist.In Germany maler-schwein. is and for the political, born for GUAGNINI: The demand critique, of out of the exhaustion politicsin westerndemocrawherethe art cies;whichin turn fundsart festivals are produced placeswherepolitics not in checkin is mate,like SouthAmerica, hailedas a cure,and said Godard generally and misunderstood. sanitized I "all art ends up becoming culture." see the mutual you as immunecondition describe domestication. Houseartists,houseof cultures. Yes,the swinecan onlybe an artist,and conversely' the artist can onlybe a swine.lt's mostlyan ego despiteall efforts againstauthorship based activity, ... My and authority. swineartist herois Fassbinder is Fassbinder a new melancholy. But then the cult of And I am waryof the swine heroicmythsof self-deour ... d struction la Kippenberger essentially, everyand day life is petit-bourgeois that's the swinewe must constructfrom.
KELSEY:

in GUAGNINI: Whatwouldbe the roleof sexuality that war,and in that machine?

KELSEY:

but roleswithinsexuality I likethe ideaof playing I don't knowif sex itselfwouldneeda role.In sex' identitypoliticsneverreallywent awaybecauseit thereall got boring there.lt's beenthriving never along,stayinghealthyby stayingsick. scenein Argentina' I'veheardaboutthe liber-teen like mad,what'sup with that? littlekids fucking

are both irGUAGNINI: Yes,that's right. ln sex, differences I and negotiable.was a teen in Argentina reducible longago,and it's beena whilesinceI'vehad sex is there,$enitalia teen. Generally with an Argentine is sexuality spell.In America not undera religious but everyvvhere in sex. Pornmimics some idea of and sexuality, then sex mimicsporn.WhatI think is in happens Argentina that peoplebeginexploring al their sexuality t4,15, oftenwith the acquiesence Aires In of or encouragment their parents. Buenos placescalledAlberglue lodging thereare temporary with the sole purposeof fucking.They Iransitorios and this fatown,in everypricerange, are all over at one or two hourencounters anytime' In cilitates NewYorkthe logisticsof spaceand time conjugated with moneymake it difficultto havecasual sex'
KELSEY:

to That was the idea hidingin the ieune-fille: transself-managed biopolitically form the commodified, into a war machine. lifestyle

to Maybeit's when we becomeindifferent sex and that things can get interesting' Mayits imperatives be sex doesn'twantto wort{...

there is in assigned tasks and indifference GUAGNINI: Between I already potentiality.don'tthink a sexuality always without or any socialchangeis feasible complete in and how it's reguchanges both sexualbehavior socielated.Eversincethe onsetof agricultural property and private became ties, whenmarriage for sex entwined, has beena barometer all oppresreligion and secularism sion.All the battlesbetween in relationship genderare at the coreof any "us to and them" rhetoric. Sex is also the placewhere relationshios between first and thirdworld economic clearcut (backto Houllebecq!). become Also It wouldhelp if you definethe imperatives. "sexy"art is always sexy, ... isn't that a contemporary catastrophe?
KELSEY:

I swinespeak?Sometimes withinyourpsychedelic havethe feelingthat you are in fact obsessedwith of valueand the cost benefits swinelove. exchange yearning a kindof for sametime you're But at the with Bataillian communication the otherand a total lt and erosion boundaries categories. mightbe of and quanthis needto calculate to difficult resolve economic moreheretical tify yourlife with this other, i moul se. count.lt's fuckinghellto G U A G N I N I : Yes,you'rerighton every livelikethis. I wish I couldbe cooler(andby that effortless) and seemingly I meancold,detached, likeyou.All I haveto say is that if that contradictory throughquantitative attemptto destroyboundaries "valqualitative is classification my differential and I ue," or my "content," giveit to the worldfor free, but peoplestill payfor it! you are a fine analytical mindand can surely John, sell?What's Whatdo you ultimately self-diagnose. yourgiven?
KELSEY:

first I lmperatives,mean ... backto Foucault, the imperative always and then to talk aboutit (likenow), the imperative that life and art haveto be throbbing whichof coursemeans and sexyand connected, and undemonstrating in all kindsof laborious this always has to "come." sexyways.Painting

is that sexyand connected the litany GUAGNINI: Throbbing, Ultileadsto the ultimateimperative, orgasm. the matelythe swinewantsto come.To find true love, his connecting ballswith his heartand mind in a uniin fied stance, selfhood vibrating a momentof aboand lishment the difference of between exchange Or use value,beinghere,now,and forever? maybe good sex three times a week?
KELSEY:

The last thingwe sold was an imageof a shadow Hotelin the Raleigh of a palmtree takenoutside so m Mi ami .I don'tt hinkI 'm selling yself m uchas generic that I also sharewith you and so something manyothers.As artists,we are all easilyreplaceknowthis. able.Ourdealersalreadv We gaveyou a bad charcoalportraitof yourselfwith grommet noseand a punctured a yellowpainted-in you holefor an eye.In exchange gaveus a smal

lsn't therea sort of accountant work,hiding at

sculpture pendulum madefrom a desktopnovelty and a MoMAsecurity crewworkschedule. There's something funnyabouta man counting up his attributes, checking personal his walletas he loseshimselfin collaborative projects, love, orgasms, etc. Because guessit's not really I his orgasm, he needsto be there in orderto lose but himselfthere.
GUAGNINI: The desktop item is called Newton's Craddle, and it's

ways,is testingthe relationship between different and withina hyper-productive constructing refusing we workon extending, non-context both somehow to like it or not. lt seemsmoreand more pointless here,but then refusing signcan to signour refusals just end up functioning anotherkindof signature. as

a reference Fassbinder's fhe ThirdGeneration to film in whichall the petit-bourgeois members a clanof destinerevolutionary organization haveone of these in their apartments. schedule actually The is for bathroom cleaning. thinkthat there is no self outI side marketing viceversa.Youare in a pseudo and position ontological Bartlebian of refusal-gentle you refusal, wouldprefernot to-but the refusals you are withinsituations constructed: galleries, discourses, socialscenes.I think maybe that is our commonality then,this beingthereto get lost,this momentof constructing refuse? to
KELSEY:

In our case,and in muchNewYorkpractice, Bartlebyis never from PJ.Barnum, far and sometimes the ghostof JackSmith.Smith'sstagewas a torn downceiling, rubbleheap,and the threepeople a that foundtheirwayto the Plaster Foundation on a certainmidnight wereneversurewhenthe show was beginning ending. or Still,it was a show. I agreethat whatwe'reprobably bothworking in on,

At