Mariel Frith

Mrs. Chawkat
Period 3
January 8, 2015
Transcribed Interview with Ms. Florence Hines
MF: Alright. And then Ill start this one. Alright
FH: Alright.. We are technology covered.
MF: Yes. Okay, so as you know, like, my topic is about diversity in college admissions, so um
like I was researching um different like plans cause some schools have race blind admissions
policies and some take into account a more holistic review and so as I was looking through all
this, I realized like some schools uh definition of diversity is different than others, so I was
wondering what is diversity?
FH: How we get it here?
MF: Exactly.
FH: We look at um really 4 different aspects in that regard, so there the obvious one you would
think of would be um racial or ethnic, but that is only one of them. Geographic diversity matters
to us which is not just how many states, but its also how many countries from the international
component and um the type of high school preparation: public school versus private versus
parochial versus independent versus home schooled is another type of diversity and then um
probably the most important to a campus like ours is socioeconomic, so that you dont have a
campus, and you will see I would imagine in your research that what comes from tokenism is a
campus of haves and have nots. And that you create a social life thats very much um separated
because youve brought together people who have nothing in common. And if anything you get
that parabolic curve where theres very few people in the middle and everybody's falling on one
side or the other and what we try to accomplish here is the opposite. Is a true parabola, so you've
got a bell curve to it. A few at the very very needy, a few at the very wealthy, and most people
somewhere in the middle; two parents working, normal, um normal upbringing, but everybody
knows, feels a stretch at going to college at a private institution, so I think the combination of
where youre from, whats your background, what type of schooling have you had, and whats
your, um, you know, what are you bringing to the table in terms of how youre going to fit
financially is kinda how we define diversity. We talk about it to students as a financial fit, an
academic fit, and a social fit. For a family, youve got to have at least 2 of those 3 to know youre
making a good college choice and if you think about what your brother is dealing with, what it
really all boils down to is those 3. But, for us, as were shaping the college, were looking at a
whole lot of different factors.

MF: Exactly. Thats what I found in my research that a lot of colleges with the holistic review
were taking into like different things, like upbringings and um hardships that theyve had.
FH: Hardships for sure has been a wonderful way to um to diversify a campus and give a student
who you can see factors that might not be traditionally strong test score wise, but theres a whole
different aspect of the student that you want to recognize. And they bring to the campus a
richness of experience that standard, traditional, you know, normal students might not have
which is good for both sides. Puts you in the classroom with people who are different from
yourself and youll learn too. So, diversity all over the place. You know holistic now? Youve
done enough research to be comfortable with what that concept is?
MF: Yeah and also I was reading a newspaper or an article earlier this morning about um like the
holistic review. And um how like in the court cases, the Supreme Court cases, that um
FH: Its the right week for you to be acquiring new sources. I think theyre being generated on
the hourly basis.
MF: Exactly. I think Ive had three every single day and um how like the um like the limited use
of race, like in holistic review, was allowed under law.
FH: Its um. It. Because youre not filling quotas. You know, and I think the concept of
affirmative action when its points and a computer doing it and a quota system is what drives
people crazy. When youre picking on so many variables, some quantitative and some
qualitative, you you are not driving by any one of those. So, many places now will say that one
of their criteria is um is financial hardship because you get such a wide mix of families who have
struggled, from immigrant to um any any ethnic group that has um been marginalized to you
know you see a wide range of diversity simply from an economic perspective and that is not race
based at all.
MF: Exactly. Um, okay so how do you measure diversity in terms of like statistics cause I was
reading a bunch of pamphlets um from colleges and a lot of times like if they do talk about
diversity, theyre mainly talking about the number of minority students they have, so how do you
guys measure, statistically, diversity?
FH: 3 ways. Thats one way. So, um ethnicity is certainly one of the 3. Um Pell Grant eligible is
the one that shows the financial aid at the poverty level or below where you're qualifying for a
federal Pell Grant, so that one is um, for us it averages about 30% of the freshman class is
receiving um so that is high need financially. And then the third one that we measure is the uh
educational level of the parents. So its first generation college student as our third. And that, that
measure simply shows that in the stereotypical liberal arts college you would expect that

everybodys parents were well educated and when you are dealing with high school
demographics of tomorrow clearly show that the populations are about to change. Over the next
10 to 20 years, there will not, the student bodies of colleges will not look the same as they have
looked for the last 20 years. So, you will see far more um immigrant's children coming of age
over all the huge immigration numbers of the last 15 years, most of those were parents with
young children. So, those children are already in our schools are going to be the first in their
college to have, or the first in their family to have ever gone to college and that to um me is a
very different type of experience because they dont have support networks to help them figure
out how to navigate the system. So the diversity of what a first generation family member,
student, goes through not having the home support, to pick up the phone and say my midterms
are killing me and nobody knows about midterms, what that feels like. Its hard.
MF: Yeah, I know like my dad having to come from Florida and then not being able to like go
home at breaks just because of money like thats the I feel like thats the one thing that I think
adds something unique to a college campus.
FH: I think youre right. So Roger Casey is first generation. His parents didn't go to college.
MF: Oh, I didnt know that. Wow.
FH: So, first gen by no means is necessary. Joan Coley. Also, president before. Also, first
generation. Working class Philadelphia. Working class, um, South Carolina. Lots of people on
this campus who are faculty and staff were the first person in their families to go to college. And
that does diversify your experience where you know you have double McDaniel alums, they get
it. You have grown up in a culture where college was not just a dream, it was pretty much an
expectation. So, heres a kid who is in your class who is driven to be the first one to do it. You
get a whole different dynamic there of what that student is going to do in your classes because
boy theres a lot riding. So, you, and Im sure you see that now. You have friends in your high
school, even though, you know its a competitive county and a competitive state. There are
people who are driven to be the first in their college, in their family to do that.
MF: I agree. Um, as a dean of admissions, what are your views on schools with race blind
policies implemented in them?
FH: I think, for, as much as you can, um, create an environment that is diverse without targeting
race youre doing a good thing. But, if you find that your lack of consciousness of race creates a
homogeneous student body you probably have not succeeded. You know, if you and this is one of
the issues um with some of the most competitive colleges in the country because they have so
many applicant and their admit rates are so low that the people who are showing all of the extra
educational experiences become a very homogenous group of people. So theyre not having the
diversity in their student bodies that were having because their, their spots, there are so many

other factors that work that because theyre not necessarily paying attention at all they end up
with a smaller number than they meant to. And then, you have probably read about the concept
of people undermatching. Have you seen those articles yet? If not, you oughta google the
undermatch.
MF: Yeah, Ive heard of it.
FH: It is the concepts that students with financial difficulties who are very talented academically
will set their goals lower in order to make sure they will go to a place that is less competitive
than somewhere they may have gotten into because theyre so worried about money. So,
undermatching is also a hit against diversity because most of the people who are undermatching
are of diverse backgrounds. Primarily, financial, but usually there is a nice mix that goes with
that and the hope would be that you wouldn't let your financial circumstances drive your search
if youre a talented student, but it happens.
MF: Yeah, um I was reading again newspaper article just this week, um University of Michigan,
there they have some sort of race blind plan um and like the reporter said that when they
implemented that back in 2006 it was like 7.3% minority students and then it dropped to like 4.7
and like some judges were discussing whether or not that was enough of a difference to actually
re-implement holistic review.
FH: And yet, in a school in a size of Michigan 3% could be a thousand kids which means your
campus feels and looks different even if in the percentages concept thats not but a 3% shift, but
in a freshman class 3% is gonna be a substantive number.
MF: Yeah, and they were again talking about like how some of the students on campus felt like
spokespersons for their own race because there was only one black student in a class of a 100.
FH: And, so you know my kids are Asian. They hate that. I would imagine you have been um
looked at every now and then with some assumption that you can speak for a multicultural
perspective in a different way. No one should have to do that. Youre in school for your own
education just like everybody else. Having to speak for a race; I cant speak for mine why should
anyone have to.
MF: Personally, I dont feel any I guess like strong connection with to a country like my best
friend does. Her parents were immigrants from Ethiopia and she has very strong ties, but like I
dont feel that much different from my parents or anyone else. So I feel, I dont know, its
different.
FH: Thats right. Youre American. Exactly.

MF: For schools with race blind policies, what would you expect to happen to the level of
diversity of the school after it has been implemented?
FH: I think you have to have a plan for diversity one way or another. Whether its race based or
not. You have to know your student body well enough from a data perspective to understand
what you typically do. So, start with in state, out of state. Whether youre public or private. Do
most of the students come from the state youre located in? In which case, you take, you
continue to seek just that market, do you have everything you want? You know, and I think if you
consider how a campus has to look long term. I mean your dad came here from Florida when we
had virtually no students from out of state. So, not only did he have a couple of his own
challenges of being far away from home and everything, there weren't a ton of other people far
away from home. So one of the students, you know so now, Seattle and California and Florida
and Nova Scotia and Wisconsin and Chicago. This is a norm for us rather than, he was at the
beginning of the geographic shift. And that, so what does a school, well how they define
diversity will influence whether race blind will succeed or not because what are you trying to
accomplish. Is your, which factors must you measure as you asked me,you know, very
appropriately, how do you measure it, what do you define it as. So, based on the definition, if
youre not looking at race, are you still achieving the goals of diversity and I think really thats
what it comes to institution by institution is there are gonna be goals for the enrollment of the
institution. What, what must we strive for in order to be the best possible rendition of who we
are, so we want gender balanced because it becomes a different dynamic to be 65/35 than 50/50.
So, do we, are we gender blind, yes, but are we paying attention to it, absolutely because your
residence halls, your social life, your sports, your everything becomes weird when you meant to
be 50/50 and all of a sudden youve become two thirds, one third. Thats not meeting a goal
either. That has nothing to do with race. But, the point is as you do my type of job youre
constantly watching you know how many top academic bluechip scholars do you have in a class,
how many musicians do you have in a class, how many athletes do you have in a class, how
many people from tertiary markets do you have in a class, how many people distributed across
the mid atlantic do you have, how many of, are totally need, need um, you know, high need
versus moderate need versus low need financially, how many come from this country, how many
of this background, first gen, you know so I mean if I was to try to grid out what we put in the
profile, thered probably be 20 different measures that we would want to show as an institution
who we are as a student body, not just a couple. And so, the object of the game is to create
policies for admission that allow you to achieve all of those goals without penalizing anybody.
But, to make sure that your, all of your strategies are working towards the same goal and then,
yeah, you can be race blind. Without too much trouble, because youre doing what you mean to.
MF: Yeah, so when you come across, like, I guess you could say imbalances in those groups,
how do you go about like making new policy?

FH: Well you probably end up with your problem before you know you have a problem because
of the way admissions works. So, you think everythings fine, you recruiting a class, they have
until May 1st to make up their mind and on May 15th youre looking at it going, Where are the
guys?. Why are we all girls? Well your class is pretty much finished, so you may have a year
in there that is a blip. Where you then have to, you have to go backwards and you have to do
your um analytical research to say What shifted? So for us, by gender just keeping it to a very
deliberate different example, than by race um I think that you could, you would track back to us
youd see that we rarely deviate from more than 48:52. So, if we were to break that down by
state, if we were to break it down by high school, if we were to break it down by ability, by
scholarships, you should, you should have a pattern in your data to show you, then, how you go
look at the current year where things just messed up and figure out what happened. Was it New
Jersey? Is it just Maryland? Did, did it all fall apart? You know, did you lose all of your guys
indiscriminately by where they live or is it you got pocket that went wrong. What is it? What
happened there and how do you build it back? You can buy um names of just about any type of
group from CollegeBoard or from ACT. So, as you have taken PSATs and take SATs and
ACTs your name if you agree to it goes into a database that colleges can purchase which is why
you get so much random college mail, but if, so if a college was looking for a violinist, they
could go buy a list of violinists. If a college was gonna open Texas, you could buy a huge
number of names and try and try to create interest in Texas, if youre down in men, if you need
students of color, you can clearly build a strategy to shape your inquiry pool that then you watch
carefully to see if you can bring it through to become your applicant pool or admitted pool, and
then ultimately your enrolling class. So, there are lots of strategies that you can use if you know
what youre , either what your goal is in terms of growing something or what you have a deficit
in that you now need to make up. And the admission concept is that, that you can do all of this
without denying someone else on a factor that is discrimination.
MF: Yes, and I think thats like some of the back and forth between the like race blind er not race
blind but um in taking consideration race in applications, some poeple are like, if youre taking
into consideration race, then, and a lot of schools want minority students, then what is that doing
to the other applicants.
FH: Well, you, usually it is a white student that he or she feels that they have been unjustly
denied who raises the issue. That because you had a quota, that because you, you, you used race,
you gave somebody an advantage on a factor that is discriminatory, so you know, so if you think
about the basic anti-discrimination statements that every college has to abide by that's the kind of
thing you have to be really careful about, from an admissions perspective. If you start making
exceptions on the basis of a category that is protected, your running into some dangerous ground
really quickly. Oh, this kids not a very good student, but he she it is a blank, now you are
beginning to tread down a slippery slope. If all your admission standards for everybody else are
comparable and you make an exception, why? is how you have to justify your policy also.

MF: And because I think the sort of holistic review is so subjective, that's what makes it even
more difficult to kind of um figure out, what makes that student better, Which again goes back to
like what makes a student stand out or diverse like hardships or.
FH: But, right, what is that student bringing to your campus? What is another student bringing
and are you making a widespread decision to try to create something on your campus that
enables you to recognize that without using checkbox categories. You know, the whole deal is
you shouldnt be using a point system and the bigger the school, the more likely they are, or they
had been 15 years ago to use a point system. You get points for GPA and points for scores and
points for this and points for that, then affirmative action was then you give more points for
race.So, that will put somebody up higher than a student who doesnt have the race points and is
that the problem in admissions or not? Is diversity more important as a concept, to have your
classrooms be broad based than the point system that might have given and advantage. These are
the constantly shifting opinions that youre working with, so at least I seem to think that holistic
works because youre looking for the extra things on everybody, not just on one group of people.
You want there to be consistency, and you want there to be um fairness, but you also want to
achieve your goals as an institution.
BREAK
MF: Okay, so um are colleges trying to increase the level of diversity at their school?
FH: Almost all of them are. And Ill tell you why. It's not um, it might come from a altruistic
point of view, but it also comes from a reality that um the changing demographics of high school
graduates is going to um to be minority driven over the next 20 years. So, um if you're an all
white campus, whats the incentive to a student of color enroll, and there aren't gonna be as many
white students, so if you're going to survive as an institution, youd best be a melting pot where
students from all backgrounds feel comfortable or you will lose market. So, yes I think
everybody, whether they meant to be, whether they started it, they're late to the game of long to
the game, yeah, everybodys paying attention
MF: So, um why, why do you think that they are trying to increase the level of diversity?
FH: Well, one is student enrollment size, and survival of the institution in a world that is
becoming more diverse. The other I think is, I mean my real priority is access and affordability. I
dont believe that the cost of the institution should preclude anyone from applying to it, if it
looks like a good choice, and it feels like a good choice, and it feels like thats the place they
wanna be. I hate the idea of, that you would never believe that you could even look because you
cant afford it. And for most, I mean we, we do not yet live in a society where we have income
distribution and ethnic distribution that match. We still find a large number of the students of
color who want college educations who come from much more disadvantaged backgrounds than

the range you see across the Caucasian population, so really we are um trying to keep that
balance as colleges . you don't wanna go into a high school and only have kids who think they
have the money to pay for your school be willing to learn about it. SO, for um I tend to go from
the perspective that i really want all students to think of the benefits of a small liberal arts college
like McDAniel and then what their background is is irrelevant to the conversation. So, I think for
most people its gonna be somewhere you know there are motives are honorable, they want to do
the right thing they want to create a culture on their campus that is diversity of thought which is,
which means they need diversity of experience, which means that they need diversity of
background can be really positive in that way. So, if you think about after you came back from
the Italy trip , you could add a whole to the conversation about whatd youd seen abroad that
someone whod never left Maryland has no experience with. Thats valuable in a conversation.
They will learn from you. YOu learn from being there. you will learn from someone who was
educated in another country who then comes to the same college you do. You know, all of that is
diverse.
MF: What are the most important and effective ways in which colleges advertise themselves to
increase diversity? Or like diversity initiatives I guess you could say.
FH: Oh, right. Okay. Thats a good one. You know, I really try hard not to be artificial in what we
try to present about the college. I think teenagers are a very savvy market. You try to be us, a
bunch of teenagers are gonna see right through it from the beginning. Everybody laughs at
college viewbook pictures, you know, that are designed, you know full well was put together on
purpose, so in order to do this honestly you have to be real about what youre trying to
accomplish. For many places, us included when I first, so when I go to McDaniel, one of the real
charges, goals that I was given was to increase the diversity of the campus. Did you know that?
MF: No, I didnt.
FH: I didn't know if your dad had ever said that or not about why I might have something to offer
to this conversation. So, so when I got here in 2007 the diversity of the freshman class was 12%
and that is ethnic. This freshman class was 35.
MF: Wow.
FH: So in 10 years, we literally moved from 12 to 17 to 19 to 22 to 25 to 27 to 29 to 27 to 31 to
35. So I know this because this is something I have been working on for 10 years, and the way
that we did it was not to spend money trying to target a population. So, my choice I focus in
on community based organizations who were whose whole reason for being in life was is to
actually help disadvantaged students go to college. It wasn't all about race, but it was a majority.
It is, it was helping us increase our diversity not by going out and trying to buy a name as much
as by trying to work with a group that's already trying to help and saying How can we help?

MF: So how do, when you're working with these organizations how does that target or not target
but reach students?
FH: So, in the, so if there's an organization like this, they're either an afterschool program or their
a weekend program or they work in a school during the school day and they help students of a
certain background so they, they're working with the target population of students who they
know are trying to go to college. So we would go in, and we would do essay writing workshops,
wed do um how to file financial aid paperwork workshops for parents, we would do any type of
tips of the process that would be helpful, so we were doing volunteer work. Not so different from
what you did in Honduras, with this being a target market of high school students who weren't
getting a lot of help at home. So, I then started a scholarship program in Baltimore and the way
that that all came together means that we got attention and we only had 4 or 5 kids from the
Baltimore, Baltimore City public schools, and now, you know, were pushing a couple hundred.
But, you start very small and you move your way So, little buty initiatives at first. Weve had a
group in Texas that was sending us applications so, we went to work with them and meet those
kids in person. We had a group in Rhode Island. We then connected with a group in Baltimore.
Then we grew that into Montgomery County. Then we went to, we got involved with a group in
Princeton, then we picked up a New York group, then we did a Washington D.C. group. And, so
little bitty initiatives in multiple different places begin to have positive results and so we moved
up from just a couple of 100 applications from students of diverse backgrounds, to a third of the
application pool being from diverse students. So a third of the admit, a third of the enrolling class
is now a very representative group of students that we started grassroots and have now built it
into, now we have a reputation for being um a place that is friendly in the process and also um
we put our money where our mouth is, you know, we give great financial aid packages, so we
can help students make it happen and all it takes is helping it from the first year or 2 and those
students are happy, and successful, and productive, and they begin to talk. SO, this new Howard
County program that we were doing with the school system is a direct result of that because
theyre trying to diversify your teaching workforce, so their, their deal is they're going to um
target a group of students, help them fund their college education in exchange for coming back to
work for the school system.
MF: My dad was talking about that.
FH: So that, they were looking for the college partner and so they looked at us and so, we are
such a diverse place that you could,and we take care of our students and such and we graduate
them. We dont just bring them in and I dont know if you've gotten to that point in your of um
the research yet, but bringing them in the door is not the real measure of your success, graduating
them is the measure of your success. And if you have very disparate graduation rates between
one population on your campus and another, then you have some challenges to work on. So think
about every story youve ever read about Division 1 and athletics and how the athletes got

special treatment and they got fake classes and they are graduating people who are top notch
athletes who cannot read. Its wrong.
MF: Or they're graduating in 5 years
FH: Yes, um so being to show that not only can you bring them in, but you can successfully
mentor and educate and then you can graduate is your ultimate measure of whether your process
is successful.
MF: So, when you talked about community organizations, thats not targeted, is that targeted
specifically towards increasing the amount of minority students or is that like all like
socioeconomic, geographic..?
FH: Yes, it's predominantly socioeconomic and and financial, so socioeconomic financial
background, first generation is what I meant to say, and it is that combination of helping people
whose parents may not speak the language, who, whose parents may work um a job that
compensates them hourly where theres no way they can pay for college beyond a community
college. How do you help the student have choices and opportunities and then, so yes plenty of
the Baltimore city kids that we interview are white. Its not targeted at race, but it also brings us
into contact with students of color.
MF: So...
FH: So it helps. It absolutely helps.
MF: Okay.
FH: And I would absolutely be making it up if I did not say, if I said to you, Oh that wasnt one
of the goals. It was. The goal was to get into an environment where we can have successful
students who bring different experiences to the table whether that is by their race by their family
background. I mean a lot of our international diversity comes from the fact that Maryland is a
state that has a lot of immigrants so targeting in a immigrant population, they dont know
anything about traditional American education because their international they have a whole
different expectation, if theyre refugees they have yet, and I dont mean Syria, I mean refugees
from Africa who have been coming into Maryland for 20 years. So we have populations from all
over who don't know anything about a little liberal arts college in Westminster, Maryland. So,
were educating on a lot of different levels and part of it is simply this is a choice you have, have
you ever considered it. And then we, we win too.
MF: Un, so if you stopped using these practices do you think that the level of decrease
dramatically or has times changed where you think that students nowadays

FH: That is a great question. Now that we have built an environment would it be a huge
decrease or would it just be a small one and how would you decide? I think, you definitely would
take a hit and as long as you had some kind you have to have some sort of outreach in
admissions period. I mean to get people from Glenelg Country School, you still have to have an
outreach strategy that works there, so you really couldn't be sure until you risked it. If you risked
not doing it, now I mean so were not working as avidly with some of the out of state CBOs as
we were at the beginning because we have a wonderful state grant in Maryland that helps
families afford it and you don't get that if you're from out of state. So, from the financing point of
view, the aid is better for Maryland students sometimes than it is for an out of state and that just
is uh does the family have enough resources not to need that or do they need every single dime
that we can provide. Sometimes it's easier for them to enroll if they are in state. Theyre getting
state help. So, it could hurt us further away first. It might not hurt us as much Baltimore to
Washington, so weve probably got a strong enough narrow based that if we stopped doing all of
the stuff that we built up, we'd still be okay. Yeah, i think it would hurt. I wouldn't wanna risk it.
MF: And, like would there be any reason that you would stop. I mean like why would you?
FH: I think you wouldn't. Um if you're real goal was not just a percentage of students from an
ethnic background. If your real goal was you wanted to make your academic experience on
campus bringing together people from all different types of backgrounds and cultures and
experiences, you wouldn't stop because your goal is not to meet a certain number, your goal is to
create an environment where different thoughts will thrive and different opinions will thrive. So,
having the luxury of locations that enable you to attract diversity is a great thing in my mind. i
can't imagine why, why you would ever see it as a bad thing on a college campus where the
whole goal is learning about things you've never thought about or heard about before.
MF: So, do you think theres a point that um when it's no longer needed to have those initiatives?
FH: I hope so. I hope so. I think that um there are there are a lot of hurdles that we as a country
have to overcome before that can happen and it isn't as much civil rights related as it is economic
injustice and when we have created a society where we dont have really poor high schools
producing really ill prepared students because all high schools aren't being funded sufficiently to
educate their kids properly, then we will have a better opportunity to to know that all kids who
are finishing 12th grade have the experiences to be successful college students and right now we
dont have that across America. You know we are definitely inequitable, unequitable, so someday
I would envision, our lifetime for sure, all of yours, all of you who have three different
backgrounds in the country (referring to me, her daughter, and her daughters friend) wont even
think about it. You know and you know that the world that you live in will not consciously be
paying attention to it and then i think weve probably achieved something as a society, but were

not there yet. And every single aspect of the frustration that people are feeling in our country just
demonstrates it. Were not there yet. So yeah weve gotta work on it until youve achieved it.
MF: Cause I, I dont know. I used to get like really upset when I would get like letters from the
Black Student Union about performing well in the MSAs, but my dad that was something that he
really cherished when he was at college, but how I see it is like times have changed and, but I
still think he like uh I guess is in support of the program because of how much it um helped him
I guess you could say.
BREAK
FH: So, has the world changed. Yes, I think education and what is happening in colleges, your
dad and I graduated in the same year from two totally different places. Yeah, its not the same
world that we went to college in. However, we have not and I think if anything, and Roger and I
have talked about this a lot. Your millennial generation and your digital native generation, your
generation is the first one where people don't look at each other and think color. Thats what
you're after. You dont judge people by their skin color before you know them. That is how the
world has progressed, but then you look at the ridiculousness of Donald Trump and hes judging
on you know. So hes this privileged white guy who says dont let any Muslims in the country.
Were going backwards. You know that cannot even though it ain't gonna happen because its so
outrageous thats not helping. Thats not helping the cause of diversity. That's not helping
education. Thats putting up a fear agenda. I just, I dont think were close enough to let go of
making sure that there are well educated people all over the country of different backgrounds.
You get everybody on an equal playing field with education, youll be a whole lot closer to to
hitting the goal for a society, but how do you get rid of poverty in the urban centers of American
cities? You know, the only way were gonna do that is through education, so if we as an
educational system can contribute to that effort. I recruit amazing human beings from Baltimore
who take 4 types of public transportation to get to their high school. Every single morning. You
know a 2 hour, hour and a half commute, busses and the metro to get to their school because they
wanted to go to a good school rather than um to the worst one in their neighborhood and in
Baltimore city they apply to high schools. They dont get zoned by where they live, so boy you
got a kids whose already working it that hard, doesnt that kid deserve to be well educated at the
collegiate level and to make a difference in their world. Every one of them, every one of them
worries about the 7th and 8th graders who are still at risk on the street. You know and they're
they're afraid of gangs and theyre afraid of um drug deals and shootings that these are their
brothers and sisters and cousins and theyre saying that boy if I can get out of here, Im getting
my family out of there. And I respect that I respect that as a goal and if I can help educate
somebody Ive done good work I think. And that has zero to do with the percentage of kids of
color. That has everything to do with making a better world, so Im that kind of cheerleader for
the concept.

BREAK
MF: Um and I feel like...
FH: So does that make sense to you?
MF: Yes.
FH: I mean do you think about growing up and what you wanna do in the world, wouldn't it be
nice if all the people that you were working with and um brainstorming with were well educated.
MF: And I, like when I was talking to my dad about like back in probably like 7th grade about
like how strongly I felt that I shouldn't be getting this award because Im no different than
anyone else just based on my skin color I like I was talking to my dad and I was like when I go
outside I don't and I mean I know I I in my community, like there's not that many students of
color. Theres a lot of of white of white people in my community, but I've never really felt like
any different and I think that's what made me more upset about getting that award was because
Im really no different, so why are you putting me on a pedestal for something that I should be
doing anyways.
FH: And I would politely say to you because I adore your parents, your economically just like
everybody else and if you were living on food stamps it'd be a whole different conversation
because in your community people are equals and race doesn't matter and we've still got too
many communities where that's not true.
MF: And I think that I probably was very naive when said that.
FH: I think you will continue to feel that way. Thats legit. My Asian kids are that way and
they're like don't be calling me Asian. I don't live in China. Im American. Im just like everybody
else. I mean they dont see color at all. I took them back to China this summer and the biggest
freak out for them was everybody thought they should speak Chinese because they look like
them and they came away being very conscious of the fact that Asian American is really
american. Same for you. Its really American.
MF: Yeah
FH: Your opportunities say you have the same experiences in America as anybody else and it
doesn't matter about skin color.
MF: Um and I think another reason why my dad was still in support of like the thing was
because when he grew up it definitely was not the same as how I grew up.

FH: He worked hard too.

MF: Yeah, so I understand now, like how where he was coming from.
FH: And what he wanted for your as his kid and what you will want for your kid will be very
similar, but what his parents wanted for him required a whole different level of work. And hes
achieved it and now you have opportunities and you will want your next generation to achieve,
but it builds on itself. If he hadn't taken that amazingly brave leap, and it is a leap you know, to
go across the country and be a minority in the purest sense of the word, things might be different.
You never know. I mean I grew up in Mississippi. My mother taught in the poorest public school
systems in Mississippi on purpose, but she wouldnt let us go to those schools and that always
made me feel weird. You know that she wanted the best education for everybody, but she wasn't
going to risk ours by putting us in the same schools as the kids where she was trying to teach in
and make a difference. Boy that's a hardline you know. I will devote my career to teaching
Shakespeare to kids who are not dreaming of college, but Im not putting my own kids in there,
so I come by my you know some of my beliefs very much naturally just like you do, but our
generations change from parent to kid. The world is not its not the same.
MF: And like, do you think that how long do you think its gonna be until like race wouldnt be
considered?
FH: In Admissions or the world?
MF: In admissions.
FH: If if all the demographic projections are right then in the next 10 years, white people will no
longer be the majority college bound ethnicity, so African American and HIspanic students will
become equals in the percentage and because there are 3 groups, the white percentage will
become a minority population in colleges cause you got a third a third a third. Two thirds are not
like you, so when we get to that point, when you see that complete crossover, you're not gonna
need these policies cause your gonna have a balance in the college going population that the
country's never had. So, I can actually see it shifting fairly soon. So, you know in that regard, the
world itself is going to give us an opportunity that we've never really had. And that'll be cool. I'm
all for it. Alright Boys and Girls Club of Westminster, a McDaniel College student and tour guide
happens to be right there. This is our neighborhood right here in little wacky Westminster. This is
low income housing, but it's new and the boys and girls after school program is literally
dominated by McDaniel student volunteers and um work study, so what you end up with is an
opportunity even at a little school like here to help the next generation of elementary kids be
involved and yeah people are gonna stop think about color pretty fast.
MF: And do you think like in the Boys and Girls Club they promote like college as a

FH: Yes, they do. Absolutely. And that's one of the reasons why they So yeah, I think we're
getting there. Were not finished, but we're getting there and conversations on topics like this
long term At least your um you know, I don't really believe people in my world are doing to
cause trouble, I think everybodys doing it with good intentions. Theyre maybe some bad
choices made that are still made with good intentions, but the pint for most people is to educate
more and better and differently, not to just keep on doing it the old way. Thats my hope.
MF: Yeah, same.

Reflection
I thought that the interview went amazing. Conversation flowed easily and there was
never a point when we weren't talking naturally. I could tell that she was an expert in her field
just by the sheer knowledge of details about the field that she was able to provide and by the fact
that she was able to answer every one of my questions with words specific to the field, but also
in a way that I could understand the new information she was putting forth as someone who
hasn't had as much experience in the field as she has. The information I learned in the interview
is exactly what I was looking for and it gave me lots of clarity on my topic and what I was really
looking to discover within my project. For my next interview, I would focus on trying to use
more higher quality language and words from the field and also cut the word like out of my
vocabulary unless it is actually needed.The interview was easier for me because I felt
comfortable with my advisor, so I wasn't afraid of anything that I might say wrong, but what was
difficult was trying to pay attention to every single detail of what she was saying just because it
was so fascinating and interesting to hear what she had to say that sometimes I forgot to think
about what would be appropriate for me to say next or follow up with. When coming up with the
questions, the most difficult thing for me was really trying to figure out exactly what I wanted
and needed to know that would benefit my project. I wanted to make sure that I didn't leave any
important questions out that I would regret not asking later. Also, I needed to ensure that all of
my questions were ones that I thought she could answer without looking it up in their colleges
database. This would be the case for some numerical questions. All in all I believe that the
interview was successful and was extremely beneficial for my project and the furthering of my
knowledge in the field.